### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute 2111 Wilson Blvd Suite 500 Arlington, Virginia

Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:11 a.m.

R e ported by: Natasha Thomas, Capital Reporting Company

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 F A CILITATOR 3 N e il Eisner, Navigant Consulting 4 5 P A RTICIPANTS 6 K a rim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration 7 I n stitute 8 T i mothy Ballo, EarthJustice 9 J e ff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning 10 L a ura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy 11 J o hn Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy 12 M a ry Dane, Traulsen 13 P a ul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc. 14 M a rk Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products 15 G e offrey Halley, SJI Consultants, Inc. 16 C h arles Hon, True Manufacturing 17 J i ll Hootman, Trane 18 J o hn Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc. 19 D i ane Jakobs, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 20 T o m Johnson, Daikin McQuay 21 J e ff Kleiss, Lochinvar 22 M i chael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories LLC

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 A r is Marantan, U.S. Department of Energy 3 P e ter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development 4 K a ren Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 5 F r ank Myers, Pvi Industries, Inc. 6 M a ssoud Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc. 7 M i chael Rivest, U.S. Department of Energy 8 H a rvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient 9 E c onomy 10 R o nald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation 11 F r ank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 12 R e frigeration Institute 13 P h illip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products 14 C o rey Tucker, U.S. Department of Energy 15 R o bert Whitwell, Carrier Corporation 16 W e s Wostal, ClimateMasters, Inc. 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. EISNER: Laura's emailed us. She has had 3 t r ouble getting to the Metro this morning. She is on 4 h e r way in the Metro now, probably will not be here for 5 a while. So we're going to start off with the slides 6 w e were on last night and talk about some issues that 7 D O E has on those slides. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Like I said, we are going to 9 t a ke it from the top. So we talked after the meeting. 10 A n d we have made a few policy decisions I think we can 11 g o through. We are going to have to punt on a couple, 12 b u t I think we will have Mike speak to what we talked 13 a b out last time one by one. And we can all talk about 14 i t as a group as we go. 15 MR. RIVEST: So I think when Laura is here, 16 t h ere will be a conversation about the exact mechanism 17 f o r having some of these options not part of the 18 t e sting, not part of the rating. So she mentioned that 19 i t may not be an amendment to the basic model 20 d e finition and may, instead, be guidance that she 21 i s sues for certification and enforcement purposes. It 22 m a y be guidance to the test procedure itself, so things

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 5 1 t h at could be done relatively quickly. But that gives 2 y o u guys some certainty. So I won't speak to the 3 m e chanism at this point because it's not certain, but 4 j u st in terms of what is in/what's out. 5 For the copper, copper coils, the 6 D e partment's tentative position is that they would be 7 s u bject to testing. 8 MR. EISNER: Do you want a discussion on 9 t h ese or do you need to -- 10 MR. RIVEST: I think what I would like to do 11 i s go through everything we talked about yesterday, 12 j u st give you where the thoughts are. And then we 13 c o uld have conversation about that. So here the 14 d e cision would be to exempt economizers from testing. 15 T h e ventilation energy recovery systems would be exempt 16 f r om testing. Also, seat recovery, reclaimed coils, and 17 t h ermal storage would be exempt. Coated coils, no 18 d e cision has been made. We are agonizing on that one. 19 C o rrection capacitors would be exempted. Hail guards 20 w o uld be exempted. This is a long conversation. I 21 m e an, I think this is going to be exempted. That's as 22 f a r as I got.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6 1 We can give you a tentative position on 2 t h ese. I mean, there are some of these that we think we 3 k n ow enough to have a position. And there are others 4 w e don't think we know enough or that we think we 5 s h ould have more discussion about. This would be 6 e x empted, variable frequency drives or means by which 7 f a n speed can be reduced, thereby saving energy. 8 T h at's why we need to talk about condenser fan motor 9 o p tions. We just want to talk about that to understand 10 w h at is bundled in there, how that works. 11 Steam hydronic heat options would be 12 e x cluded. Lower BTU gas options, we don't know what 13 t h at means. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Actually, you know, this 15 o n e I think was put in there -- you know, this to me is 16 m o re information than anything; right? 17 MR. RIVEST: Yes. 18 MR. WHITWELL: We do have different heat 19 s i zes or heating capacities that we would offer in a 20 p r oduct. And, of course, the higher the heat output, 21 t h e more heat exchanger is in there. But I think that 22 g e nerally the industry practice is to rate with the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 7 1 l a rger heat. 2 MR. RIVEST: Highest heat -- 3 MR. WHITWELL: Right. So we actually get 4 s o me extra performance, if you will, with the lower 5 h e at options. 6 MR. RIVEST: So you are taking this off your 7 l i st? 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, I think this comes off 9 o u r list. 10 MR. RIVEST: All right. 11 MR. FLY: Yes. This is probably more for 12 i n formation. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: So you are already rating it 14 a t the -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes. I mean, we were 16 t r ying to be complete on the list of things. 17 MR. RIVEST: This one we will have to talk 18 a b out: gas reheat. 19 MR. FLY: Actually, that one and the 20 r e claimed coil are almost the same. That's another 21 c o il in the air stream. So it kind of goes with the -- 22 MR. RIVEST: But we'll have to talk about it.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8 1 MR. FLY: Yes. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. We can -- 3 MR. FLY: Don't confuse -- 4 MR. RIVEST: It's not an external source, 5 t h ough. It's part of the -- 6 MR. FLY: Yes. It's not an external source. 7 MR. RIVEST: And it's reheating stuff it just 8 c o oled. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And it's just -- 10 MR. RIVEST: It sounds efficient, but -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: It is to prevent overcooling 12 o f the space; right? 13 MR. RIVEST: Right. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Because there are times when 15 t h e building needs to be dehumidified, you need to take 16 h u midity out, but you don't need sensible cooling. So 17 t h is is a way to do that without having a separate -- 18 MR. RIVEST: And this is a good way. 19 MR. WHITWELL: -- standalone dehumidification 20 s y stem. 21 MR. FLY: I mean, it's a good way in the fact 22 t h at it is using recycled heat with recycling heat off

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 9 1 t h e condenser that normally you would be throwing away 2 o n the condenser side. This normally doesn't operate 3 a t the best condition. 8067, there's an ameliorable 4 r e ason to be dehumidifying and be for a higher load or 5 a lower, typically a lower, space. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Alternative approaches could 7 b e like what Harvey talked about yesterday where he's 8 g o t a dehumidifier with a compressor and it's just 9 r u nning, taking moisture out of the air and dumping 10 h e at into the space. So it's actually then you're 11 g o ing to need to run cooling in order to offset that 12 h e at. 13 MR. RIVEST: I don't have a thought even if 14 t h is is a good idea or not. So we can talk about this 15 a little longer. 16 This one we'll -- I mean, we understand for 17 h i gh-static blowers that they would be oversized when 18 t e sted at the test procedure conditions, which means 19 t h ey are not at their optimal conditions on their 20 l o ading curve. I think this may require some sort of 21 t e st procedure fix. 22 A blanket exemption, I don't know if that is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 10 1 a possibility or -- we just haven't talked about this, 2 w h at solutions there might be. Someone had mentioned 3 m a ybe some sort of chart that would allow you to 4 t r anslate the efficiency at one static to another, 5 s o mething like that. 6 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. The water 7 s o urce heat pump ISO standard has the means to 8 n o rmalize the fan power. So basically if you had the 9 b i gger fan at a higher static, it subtracts it out as 10 p a rt of the test procedure. It would be a test 11 p r ocedure change. It would be a test procedure change. 12 MR. RIVEST: So DOE's preference would always 13 b e to do a test procedure change and have the ability 14 t o have the product tested than to have something 15 e x empted. 16 MR. WHITWELL: So in a case like that, I 17 m e an, it is going to take some time to do a test 18 p r ocedure change; right? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 20 MR. RIVEST: So that's where Laura's 21 c o nversation about guidance -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 11 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 2 MR. RIVEST: -- and how that might be 3 a p plicable -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 5 MR. RIVEST: -- if those are put in place 6 q u ickly -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Because I was trying to figure 8 o u t what is it. You know, if we hold these things off, 9 t h en how soon would this be, you know, enacted? I 10 t h ink that all kind of goes into the timing of what -- 11 MR. RIVEST: Yes. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- we would recommend in the 13 t i ming. 14 MR. RIVEST: Absolutely. And I think things 15 t h at are silent in the test procedure, it's easier to 16 w r ite guidance than things that are going directly 17 a g ainst the test procedure. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 19 MR. RIVEST: So this may be something that is 20 n o t easily fixed. 21 MR. WHITWELL: And the ducted condensers is 22 t h e same as this in that there are units that have

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 12 1 d u ctwork, you know, where they are installed inside the 2 b u ilding, and then you have to duct the condenser area. 3 A n d depending on the application and how long that 4 d i stance is, you might need some higher static fan 5 m o tors -- 6 MR. RIVEST: Right. 7 MR. WHITWELL: -- higher motor pump. 8 MR. FLY: You might want to do a several-pack 9 p r ocedure. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 11 MR. RIVEST: That one may be easier to 12 e x empt, just in terms of -- 13 MR. WHITWELL: Right now there isn't anything 14 i n the test procedure -- 15 MR. JOHNSON: That's just ducted, you know. 16 Y o u ducted condensers. You also have -- if you want to 17 l o wer the sound level coming up with those condenser 18 f a ns, it would put some type of a silencing system on 19 t o p of that, which adds static to it. 20 MR. RIVEST: It's a separate module that is 21 p u t on top. 22 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, a separate module put on.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 13 1 MS. MEYERS: A lot of schools require that. 2 MR. RIVEST: Stuff that is separate is one 3 t h ing. 4 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 5 MR. RIVEST: Motors that are integral to the 6 p r oduct -- 7 MR. JOHNSON: But it would change the motor. 8 MR. RIVEST: You would change the motor -- 9 MR. RIVEST: -- to be able to push through -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 11 MR. RIVEST: -- the silencer. 12 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 13 MS. MEYERS: A lot of sound requirements from 14 s c hools. And they require that silencing system. 15 MR. RIVEST: Could it be specified what 16 p e rformance level you are trying to achieve. So it's 17 n o t just a claim of -- 18 MR. JOHNSON: It's more of a sound level 19 y o u're trying to achieve and less of a performance 20 l e vel. 21 MR. RIVEST: I mean sound reports. 22 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14 1 MR. RIVEST: So if someone doesn't put some 2 c o ntraption, claiming it's a sound attenuator -- 3 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 4 MR. RIVEST: -- it really does nothing but 5 l o wer the standard. 6 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. Yes. I get where you are 7 c o ming from. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, she is right on levels. 9 I mean, there is a sound level, whatever the society 10 f o r architects is, AIA or whatever it is, and see 35 in 11 a classroom. So in order to achieve a noise criteria 12 o f 35 in a classroom, which is -- 13 MR. FLY: Actually, an ANSI standard. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. That's what I want. I 15 c o uldn't remember if we had gotten into ANSI standards. 16 MR. FLY: Yes. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: So in order to achieve that, 18 y o u have to do some of these things. And, yet, each of 19 t h em are not just -- I mean, you have to know how much 20 t h ey are actually taking down that intrinsic value so 21 t h at the system is at the ANSI 35. 22 MR. RIVEST: Great. So it would have to be

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 15 1 w o rded in a way that it's clear that this is achieving 2 s o me measure of utility. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, depending on the device 4 a n d how it's used. I mean, you know, it's not going to 5 s a y that everyone is like a .1 and that achieves this. 6 I t is how it is used in the application on the unit. 7 MR. RIVEST: Great. Well, put yourself in 8 o u r shoes. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: I know. I'm just trying to 10 t h ink of a way to -- 11 MR. RIVEST: I think, you know, we're going 12 t o have to come back to a lot of these, same with this 13 o n e, barometric relief. The fresh air damper, could 14 t h at just be handled with guidance in terms of keeping 15 t h em shut until they have that or -- 16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. On a lot of 17 t h ings, there is sort of a thought that I'm not sure 18 h o w we both put in these special cases and encourage 19 i m provements in the performance of these special cases. 20 T h ere are a lot of ways I can think of conceptually to 21 d o silencers, some of which will have a large impact on 22 f a n energy. Some of them might take more space but

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 16 1 h a ve a smaller impact. And I hope we are being 2 s e nsitive to encouraging -- and I guess with dampers, 3 i t is particularly the case -- encouraging treatment 4 t h at will help spur innovation to improve performance. 5 I ' m not sure that the regulatory scalpel is the 6 a p propriate -- the regulatory acts as the right scalpel 7 f o r that -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree. 9 MR. SACHS: -- that need, but I am very 10 c o nscious of it and looking for suggestions. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Maybe that is something 12 t h at better done through ASHRAE, through an ASHRAE 9500 13 c o mmittee, for example, you know, where you're looking 14 a t the whole building; right, it's looking at the whole 15 b u ilding. 16 MR. SACHS: Yes. So you are thinking in 17 t e rms of the whole building ventilation energy 18 r e quirement, which would be intensive or incremental on 19 t h e RTUs, for example. 20 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, it's just a thought. 21 T h inking out loud, maybe that would be a better way to 22 d o it than have the specific requirement on just the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 17 1 e q uipment. 2 MR. SACHS: So let it be the other guy's job. 3 MR. WHITWELL: No. I'm not saying that 4 b e cause it would turn out to be something that we would 5 h a ve to do on our equipment in order to help make sure 6 t h e building would comply; right? It's like a low leak 7 e c onomizer requirement in California, for example. 8 MR. SACHS: Marshall, you don't know anything 9 a b out that; do you? 10 MR. HUNT: We like it. 11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I 12 h a ve a question for the manufacturers of this kind of 13 e q uipment. Do competitive forces work to press towards 14 l o wer energy consumption in these kinds of options, 15 l i ke they do generally, where someone comes out and has 16 a coated coil that ends up being more efficient than 17 s o meone else? Do they promote that? Is that 18 e f fective? 19 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I don't think we can 20 m a ke efficiency claims for things like that, I think, 21 b e cause it's not part of the -- 22 MR. MYERS: Certainly things like damper

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 18 1 l e akage -- 2 MR. FLY: Yes. You can make claims on 3 u t ility in the application but not efficiency. We 4 c a n't say that it increases the efficiency of the 5 p r oduct because it's not part of the test procedure, I 6 d o n't think. 7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I was 8 t h inking more in terms of this manufacturer uses a 9 p a int. We'll use that example. Paint has this heat 10 t r ansfer factor. I use some super anodizing coating 11 t h at actually works and it has this coefficient of heat 12 t r ansfer and then present that to the engineer that's 13 i n the specification. Those kinds of things -- 14 MR. FLY: I don't know that -- 15 MR. MYERS: -- take place, but if you have a 16 g o od way of doing it -- 17 MR. RIVEST: So ultimately, creating a 18 p r oduct class and doing a separate analysis would get 19 t o that because it would adjust the standard level to a 20 l e vel that is cost-effective. In other words, they 21 w i ll have to put a -- you know, if it degrades the 22 p e rformance by .3 of an EER based on the level of

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 19 1 c o ating technology that must be cost-effective, the 2 s t andard would be set .3 below. 3 MR. SACHS: Mike? 4 MR. FLY: But if you get into -- let's say 5 y o u get a product class that is high-corrosion units -- 6 h i gh- corrosion is high corrosion -- and the Department 7 h a s the ability or the desire to regulate levels of 8 c o rrosion resistance. You know, you are kind of 9 w a ndering off the mandate. 10 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think we are talking 11 a b out regulating the anti-corrosive effective. I think 12 w e are talking about regulating the -- 13 MR. FLY: Efficiency requirement for that -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: -- the efficiency requirement 15 f o r that. 16 MR. FLY: I don't know if you can separate 17 t h em. 18 MR. RIVEST: Well, how do you define it? 19 MR. FLY: How do you define it? 20 MR. RIVEST: How do you guys define it? 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So you're thinking that 22 t h ere would be a race for a high-efficiency anti-

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 20 1 c o rrosion product that might not provide -- 2 MR. FLY: That would be very -- 3 MR. WHITWELL: -- corrosion -- 4 MR. FLY: -- corrosion protection. 5 MR. WHITWELL: -- protection. 6 MR. FLY: That would mean you just want to 7 g e t higher efficiency. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 9 MR. SACHS: We are talking about adopting an 10 i n - hospital surgical procedure for trimming toenails. 11 T h e obvious solution to this is some guidance that 12 s a ys, "If you can show that the pressure drop or the 13 h e at transfer across your hyper coil is less than 14 s o mebody else's," you ought to be able to say that, 15 e v en though that is a factual statement outside of the 16 o v erall efficiency of the unit. It's a product 17 f e ature. And if you guys are going to go take them to 18 c o urt for something for which they have experimental 19 e v idence, this would be nuts. 20 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think we are talking 21 a b out doing that. 22 MR. SACHS: So we don't need in the case that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 21 1 F r ank has brought up and similar ones the features that 2 a d d utility. A manufacturer can make a factual claim 3 a b out that utility, enhanced utility, of that feature. 4 I n unbiased third party tests, high coil survives 5 s a ltwater exposure three times as long as the standard 6 c o ated coil. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. That has nothing to do 8 w i th efficiency. We don't relate that. 9 MR. SACHS: Our silencer uses -- what happens 10 i f it's -- our silencer uses half the fan energy of the 11 o t her guys. 12 MS. BARHYDT: That I would have to think 13 a b out. I think it -- 14 MR. SACHS: But please don't think too long. 15 MS. BARHYDT: I think it's probably okay. 16 actually, but I'd have to think about it. 17 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Laura. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. In 19 a way, there is already precedence set for allowing a 20 l e sser efficiency with the gas/electric rooftop units 21 b e cause there is an additional pressure drop over the 22 g a s-fired heat exchanger. The gas-fired heat exchanger

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 22 1 p r ovides an additional type of heating capability and a 2 m o re efficient heating capability. And so in the same 3 w a y, this type of coil coating provides a better 4 u t ility of that system. So allowing maybe a lesser 5 e f ficiency, two-tenths or something like that, you 6 k n ow, again, precedence already set for allowing that. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Right. It's a rulemaking issue 8 t h at we would have to deal with that way. 9 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. 10 MR. SACHS: Is that 90.1 and -- 11 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. 12 MR. SACHS: -- or is that -- 13 MR. DOPPEL: It's 90.1. 14 MR. SACHS: It's not something that DOE is -- 15 MR. AMRANE: No. DOE has it, too. 16 MR. SACHS: DOE has it, too? 17 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. 18 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 19 MR. AMRANE: It took a long time, but -- 20 MR. SACHS: That was redundant. 21 MR. RIVEST: High-efficiency air filtration. 22 I think we understand the concept here, that someone

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23 1 s h ouldn't be penalized because they want a very, very 2 f i ne filter, but, then, we wouldn't want the test 3 p r ocedure to be done with a filter that is not a 4 r e alistic filter. So there has to be a filter for the 5 t e st. How does one define what the filter is if it's 6 n o t the one shipped for the product? 7 MR. WHITWELL: It could be the one shipped 8 f o r the product in some cases. When we say it's a 9 s t andard -- 10 MR. JOHNSON: It's just that you might want 11 t o take out all of the filters that are in there except 12 f o r the two-inch filter. 13 MR. WHITWELL: The standard two-inch filter. 14 MR. JOHNSON: It might be a two-inch pre15 f i lter. Most of the time I would think there's a pre16 f i lter that's a pretty low pressure drop. Then take 17 o u t all the other filters for a test. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, unless all of our units 19 a r e tested with a two-inch filter. 20 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. Good. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Because, you know, that's the 22 k i nd of standard we ship.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 24 1 MR. JOHNSON: It's possible you can do this 2 w i th a test procedure on what you call a modification 3 o r a clarification. 4 MR. SACHS: Well, this is the question, 5 w h ether the additional drop is enough that you would 6 c h ange the motor spec. 7 MR. JOHNSON: Well, yes. That, you know 8 w h at, is a good point. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: The motor for that gets 10 c h anged, too. 11 MR. JOHNSON: If we have a bunch of high12 e f ficiency filters in there, then we probably could 13 h a ve a different fan and a different motor to handle 14 t h at. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Could that be a different 16 m o del number? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, those -- 18 MR. JOHNSON: Well, no. It would be a 19 d i fferent aspect. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it would be a different 21 m o del number for the customer; right? 22 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25 1 MR. FLY: It's indicated in the -- 2 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, yes, yes. 3 MR. FLY: -- model number of the gas part. 4 I t 's also going to be -- I mean, we operate with an 5 e x tra filter, the energy standards that are set. And 6 e v en if you take the filters out, we may be in the 7 i n appropriate operating point on the fan. We could be 8 i n a much lower efficiency. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 10 MR. FLY: We're running somewhere where we 11 w o uldn't normally run. 12 MS. BARHYDT: So if you have changed out 13 s e veral components, motors, fans, different -- to 14 a d dress the filters, does it still meet your definition 15 o f basic model? Is it the same basic model as the -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Refrigeration system hasn't 17 c h anged. 18 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, right. Refrigeration 19 h a sn't changed. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So these are just the -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Air-moving devices. 22 MR. RIVEST: It was the quantity of air that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 26 1 w a s -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. We used -- 3 MR. RIVEST: -- was distinct from the amount 4 o f energy requirement. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We used just the CFM. 6 O k ay. 7 MR. RIVEST: It sounds like there is some 8 m o re thinking that has to happen here. So it's the 9 f i lters and the -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: That's right. You can't just 11 c h ange the filters because you wouldn't have the right 12 m o tor in there. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: No. You would be off on the -- 14 MR. FLY: This is very interrelated to the 15 h i gh- static fan. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Very much. 18 MR. FLY: It goes hand in hand. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Right, because the high-static 20 f a n can be required because of increased internal 21 s t atic pressure within the unit because of filters and 22 t h e dehumidification coils. And there are reheat

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27 1 c o ils, whatever. Plus, it can be impacted or required 2 b e cause of the application where you might have longer 3 d u ctwork in the building itself. So it's a combination 4 o f those two things that drive the requirement for the 5 d i fferent fan motors. 6 MS. BARHYDT: But it sounds like the way you 7 w o uld address that would vary by manufacturer. It 8 w o uld vary by model. It would vary by the type of 9 f i lter, that it's not something -- what I'm thinking of 10 i n terms of dealing with it in terms of a test 11 p r ocedure, that would be hard to do because -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 13 MS. BARHYDT: -- it's going to be different 14 f o r -- 15 MS. MEYERS: It varies by application. 16 MS. BARHYDT: -- for each one. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. It would be hard to do in 18 t h e test procedure because, you know, we are at those 19 l o wer statics for the test procedures so that the test 20 s e tup can happen consistently. You know, in order to 21 r e vive the fan motor curve, you would need completely 22 d i fferent setups in the test rooms.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 28 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: And they are not kind of set up 3 f o r what they would have to do. It's longer ductwork 4 a n d -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So maybe, I mean, it 6 c o uld be that it comes back to if DOE wanted to test 7 s o mething like this, it would be to test the closest 8 e q uivalent, which would be with the standard filter and 9 t h e right fan motor for that internal static. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 11 MR. FLY: It's not always just the fan motor. 12 S o metimes it's actually the fan -- 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes. True. 14 MR. FLY: -- because in larger -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. Yes. 16 MR. FLY: -- equipment, we have a range of 17 f a ns that will fit. And we pick the fan that operates 18 a t the highest efficiency. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Right. So that would be 20 l o oking at okay. Instead of ordering with the high21 e f ficiency filter option, you order with the standard 22 f i lter option and then whatever the builder says, you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29 1 k n ow, the sales tool says is a late motor for that 2 p a rticular unit. Right. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: It is complicated. 4 MR. SACHS: It also feels to me like we've 5 g o t a bit of a collision of policy goals. On the one 6 h a nd, we really want to encourage the integration of 7 t h ese functions, even though they increase fan energy. 8 O n the other hand, the law doesn't differentiate 9 b e tween internal static and external static. 10 MR. JOHNSON: Exactly. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 12 MR. SACHS: And it doesn't want anything 13 s h ipped in commerce from the factory that doesn't meet 14 m i nimal performance standard. 15 MALE SPEAKER: Well, couldn't there be like a 16 h i gh-static test for these type units? 17 MR. FLY: That's kind of what we were talking 18 a b out before. I mean, the problem is when you get into 19 t h at, you have to have a map. You have to say that, 20 " M y energy" -- you know, kind of like the fan guys have 21 d o ne with FEG, like my fan energy follows it. My 22 s t atic is this. My EER is that. My static is this.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 30 1 M y EER is this, you know. And it changes everywhere 2 y o u're at. That's the only way you can rationalize to 3 d o that. And I think that's probably outside the scope 4 o f what you can do. 5 MR. WHITWELL: That would be part of a 6 r u lemaking. 7 MR. FLY: And the coils are not coated coils. 8 MR. MYERS: Permutations become -- 9 MR. FLY: These are complex engineered 10 p r oducts. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a little bit back to the 12 c u stom idea or the one-off. I mean, literally the 13 c u stomer tells us what his external static is going to 14 b e in his building, and we build a unit meant for him. 15 T h e next one going down the line is not the same one, 16 l i terally. I mean, there is never the same motor 17 c o mbination. A fan motor, all of it is a different 18 c o mbination. They're purchased for each one of these 19 c u stomers to meet the specific needs of what is in the 20 u n it and what is not in the unit and what's the 21 b u ilding. 22 MR. SACHS: Jill, it's starting to sound like

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 31 1 w e need to sit around and think about stuff that is not 2 e v en test procedure but regulatory or classes of 3 e q uipment for which the certification has to be a 4 p e rformance map, rather than a single number. And it 5 m a y even be something that has to move toward a caf 6 a p proach of corporate-shipped efficiency, instead of 7 t h inking about -- 8 MS. MEYERS: I can tell you I did mention 9 t h at. I mean, I know for Rheem, we had probably 10 t h ousands of SKUs a year where the quantity is one. 11 T h e majority of our commercial SKUs, the quantity is 12 o n e because it is a special combination that that 13 p e rson ordered. 14 It drives our manufacturing people nuts 15 b e cause they want to build one thing going down the 16 l i ne. And, you know, so we have this argument with 17 t h em all the time. This is commercial. It's 18 d i fferent. You know, so the majority because there are 19 s o many different options -- 20 MR. SACHS: This is a take-home lesson that 21 t h e metrics we settled on as a community in the 1970s 22 m a y not be appropriate.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And the alternative was 2 i n the '70s as we would ship like one unit and one 3 c o mbination. And then they would have a bunch of these 4 f a n motor kits. And there were a bunch of shivs and 5 d r ives and included motors a lot of times in there. 6 A n d they would throw out literally what was shipped 7 f r om the factory. And they would put in these others 8 i n the field in order to meet their applications. So 9 i t was very wasteful because we didn't take back that 10 m o tor that we shipped. We didn't take back that motor. 11 S o there was all these extra motors around. And it was 12 k i nd of -- 13 MR. DOPPEL: But they did try to claim 14 w a rranty on them when they -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, they would try. 16 MR. SACHS: All right. So is this process 17 f r iendly to the thought that we might be making 18 r e commendations that might even require legislative 19 c o nsideration in the future, that we have got some sort 20 o f a parking lot of things that are important for 21 i n dustry evolution and -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: You are all always free to, but

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 33 1 w e can't. 2 MR. AMRANE: That's a good idea, Harvey, but 3 a t the same time, we know what the reality is of 4 c h anging the legislation and things like that, which -- 5 MR. SACHS: At the risk of opening that card. 6 MR. AMRANE: Right. So at the same time, I 7 t h ink we need to -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 9 MR. AMRANE: We got to -- we are addressing 10 t h ose issues again. 11 MR. SACHS: Absolutely. 12 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 13 MR. SACHS: But I am trying to think about 14 s o lutions that move us toward where we want to be. 15 MR. AMRANE: Absolutely. And I agree. I 16 t h ink -- 17 MR. EISNER: And recommendations from 18 i n dustry to change legislation would help the agency 19 a n d industry and interest groups concerned with the 20 e n vironment and energy. That would help the agency try 21 t o propose some changes. 22 MR. FLY: That is what I think this working

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 34 1 g r oup is working on, but it's not an easy -- you know, 2 y o u can tell by the discussion here we don't have the 3 a n swer. We don't know what the map of the curve or 4 w h at it would be so that you could say map A is what I 5 w a nt to regulate to. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 7 MR. FLY: We don't even know what it looks 8 l i ke or how big do I draw the envelope around it. You 9 k n ow, these are matters of the building. 10 MR. RIVEST: So just to get back to the 11 f i lters -- 12 MR. RIVEST: -- so the whole point when we 13 w e re talking about how we handle the fact that some 14 m o tors have to be larger because they would be operated 15 a t a higher static, they have to be tested and the test 16 p r ocedure static is -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: It varies depend on the 18 c a pacity size. 19 MR. RIVEST: Okay. And it's applicable to 20 w h at portion of your sales, you would say? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: In all honesty, not very much. 22 MR. FLY: At test procedures.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 35 1 MS. HOOTMAN: At test procedures, that is. 2 MR. RIVEST: So one concern John has is that 3 w h en we are rating a product, you know, we are trying 4 t o get some accurate measurement of its efficiency 5 c o mpared to another product. So a product operated 6 h i gh-static, even with comparably efficient motors, 7 w o uld consume more energy. So its EER would be lower? 8 MR. WHITWELL: Would higher-static consume 9 m o re -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 11 MR. RIVEST: So in an ideal world, you would 12 h a ve more than one static in the test procedure and you 13 w o uld be maybe having two or three different statics. 14 A n d the rating would be based on the actual static that 15 w a s shipped to product in a -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure, correct. 17 MR. RIVEST: And the standard would be set 18 a c cordingly. 19 MS. MEYERS: The alternative is if these 20 m a nufacturers didn't offer that and you shipped the 21 u n it with a regular motor. It would never satisfy the 22

- -

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 1 MR. RIVEST: I understand that, Karen, but 2 w e 'll test it. 3 MS. MEYERS: So you're using more energy. 4 MR. RIVEST: Karen, I understand that, but 5 w h at we're trying to make sure is that units that are 6 s h ipped with larger motors are shipped with efficient 7 l a rger motors. But that is all the Department is 8 t r ying to do. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I mean, in some ways, 10 t h ey are. The motors themselves are because, of 11 c o urse, they are regulated. 12 MS. MEYERS: Right. 13 MR. RIVEST: Okay. Well, we can't ship. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. All motors are regulated 15 r i ght now and covered under -- 16 MR. RIVEST: Right. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: So, you know, they are 18 r e gulated. They are already at, you know, some pretty 19 h i gh standards, 97s to 98s and all of that, for most of 20 t h ese motors. So the motors themselves are already 21 t h ere. It's just that these shivs, drives, et cetera, 22 t h at we have to put on there to achieve those higher

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 37 1 s t atics. So we're putting on shivs and those kinds of 2 t h ings. So no matter what motor we are talking -- 3 MR. RIVEST: That standard already takes into 4 a c count the cost-effectiveness. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 6 MR. FLY: Now, one thing to bring up, though, 7 t h at motor is 97-98 percent efficient at somewhere 8 b e tween 75 and 100 percent of this total horsepower 9 p o wer -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: That's true. 11 MR. FLY: -- consumption. When you get below 12 5 0 percent on that motor, if you have got a 10 13 h o rsepower motor and you are running it at 5, that 14 e f ficiency drops way off. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 16 MR. FLY: And as you go down lower, it gets 17 r e ally bad. And it becomes a resistance heater 18 b a sically at some point. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, that is not how we are 20 a p plying them, but when you -- if you were to crank 21 d o wn one of those motors in order to achieve the 22 s t atic, that's where you would be.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 38 1 MR. FLY: Be. And so the energy consumption 2 b y then would be huge compared -- it took a 20- 3 h o rsepower motor to do a 2-horsepower job. 4 MR. RIVEST: I understand. And that's really 5 w h at -- 6 MR. FLY: That's the problem. 7 MR. RIVEST: -- we're trying to get at with 8 t h e mapping. 9 MR. FLY: Right. 10 MR. RIVEST: It's to correct for the 11 i n correct static just on that motor. 12 MR. FLY: Right. 13 MR. RIVEST: It's saying if we had taken the 14 p r oper motor, this is what we would have gotten with 15 o u r test procedure. 16 MR. FLY: That and all the -- 17 MR. RIVEST: Now, maybe there is another way 18 o f doing this, which is just making sure that the motor 19

- - well, so then the standard takes into account 20 a l ready they can't put inefficient motors. So the only 21 t h ing you could get wrong is the sizing. 22 MR. WHITWELL: It could be misapplied --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 39 1 MR. RIVEST: Right. That's the risk. 2 MR. WHITWELL: -- which, I mean, to some 3 e x tent, you know, we could only try to educate the 4 c u stomers. You know, if they misapply it, there are 5 o n ly limited things we can do in that. 6 MR. AMRANE: But here we are not talking 7 a b out the normal customer: you and me. We are talking 8 a b out it is being inspected by an engineering firm. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 10 MR. AMRANE: So there is some analysis -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 12 MR. AMRANE: -- behind, you know, acquiring 13 t h e product. So you would think that at least the firm 14 w o uld have done its homework and would have picked the 15 r i ght equipment for its right application. So it is a 16 b i t different. 17 MR. WHITWELL: True. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Well, does the engineering firm 19 i n spect the motors that are going into it? Because I 20 u n derstood Jill to say earlier that they tell her, 21 " T his is the static I need," and then she builds the 22 s y stem. And so she is making those decisions about what

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40 1 i s going into it. 2 MR. JOHNSON: Sometime the spec will require 3

- - the engineer will specify the motor efficiency, 4 w h ether it should be a certain efficiency or high 5 e f ficiency or what. 6 MR. FLY: But generally it is the 7 r e quirement, the engineering requirement, for the 8 p r oject. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And you are right. I 11 t h ink less so now that it's -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: The motor has been regulated. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: The motor has already been 14 r e gulated -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: -- and pushed to the top -- 17 MR. JOHNSON: It used to be that way. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 19 MR. RIVEST: John, your concern can be any -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: So what we are looking at doing 21 i s in the short-term issuing a guidance document saying 22 t h at things like this that are more complicated,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 41 1 o b viously there are a lot of issues that we are going 2 t o have to work through. And whether it's a standards 3 i s sue, a test procedure issue, whether it is something 4 t h at ultimately there is just no solution at all under 5 t h e statute, whatever that is, it is something that we 6 a r e not going to be able to resolve in the context of 7 t h is working group. Maybe it's good for a different 8 A S RAC working group, but not this working group. And 9 s o what we are looking at doing is saying that the air 10 f i lters are not going to be something subject to 11 t e sting by the Department until it has been addressed 12 t h rough some other mechanism. 13 MR. JOHNSON: So you are going to do that to 14 v a rious options? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So there are several of 16 t h em. 17 MR. RIVEST: We went over them before. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So you all already went 19 o v er this? Okay. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: We got five "Get Out of Jail 21 F r ee" cards today. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So this falls within that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 42 1 c a tegory. This is just not something we are going to 2 r e solve right now. 3 MR. EISNER: Do you want the final report to 4 r e flect the fact that you will address those things 5 t h rough guidance or do you want any suggestions from 6 t h e members of the group as to what should be in the 7 g u idance? 8 MS. BARHYDT: I think what I will do is I 9 w i ll draft something up and I'll bring it to the next 10 m e eting if that will work for everyone. 11 MR. EISNER: Any more slides to go through on 12 t h is issue? 13 MR. RIVEST: Just for filters, apparently 14 w h en you ship the basic model, you have a standard 15 f i lter package with some guidance. How can we put that 16 i n writing? I mean, we can't just say, "No filters." 17 W e have to say -- 18 MR. JOHNSON: I'm sorry. I didn't hear. I 19 c o uldn't hear you. 20 MR. RIVEST: When it comes to filter, right 21 n o w when you're testing through the AHRI program, 22 y o u're shipping some filters. And there's probably --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43 1 MS. MEYERS: Standard. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Testing the standard -- I think 3 i t 's -- 4 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. Generally the standard 5 p a rt for everybody is probably a two-inch filter, maybe 6 s o me small units, one -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 8 MR. JOHNSON: I don't know if they use one9 i n ch filters anymore, but -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, one-inch -- 11 MR. JOHNSON: It's a very minimal filter. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- probably in the -- 13 MR. RIVEST: But is it even realistic, 14 t h ough? I mean, do some people actually buy those 15 p r oducts? You can't be like an imaginary -- like a 16 l e vel of filtration that -- 17 MS. MEYERS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This is -- 18 MR. JOHNSON: Standard filters? 19 MS. MEYERS: Yes. 20 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, very much so. 21 MR. RIVEST: Okay. 22 MS. MEYERS: Yes. The filtration options are

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 44 1

- - 2 MR. JOHNSON: They just go up and change them 3 e v ery month. 4 MR. RIVEST: Could you come up with some 5 w o rds that would define what that basic filtration 6 r e quirement would be for the test data that could be 7 i n cluded in guidance? Because right now it's -- 8 MR. JOHNSON: Probably. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Yes. 10 MR. DOPPEL: There is something in the 11 s p readsheet. 12 MR. RIVEST: Oh. There is? 13 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. I put that it was a 14 m i nimum of one inch because I thought that some of the 15 s m aller units would just have a one-inch. 16 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Is 17 t h ere a MERV rating, like 6, 7, something like that, 18 u s ed? 19 MR. DOPPEL: I think 8 is now -- it may be 6. 20 I put 8 in -- 21 MR. AMRANE: I think it is 62.1. What is it, 22 8 ?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45 1 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, 8. 2 MR. RIVEST: Could it be specified that way? 3 MR. JOHNSON: Can we specify it by MERV 4 r a ting? 5 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. 6 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, we probably could, 6, 7, 7 8 , somewhere in there, about 8 minimum, I think. 8 MALE SPEAKER: I don't know if there's any 9 c o de. 10 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. I'm trying to think if 11 t h ere's a code for that. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 13 MR. DOPPEL: 62.1. They just passed 14 s o mething that made 8 the minimum. 15 MR. JOHNSON: Did it? Okay. 16 MR. DOPPEL: I think we have something in 17 C a lifornia, but it's not 8. I think it's 7. I'll 18 c h eck. 19 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. So the 20 m a nufacturers are going to come back to the group with 21 a recommended -- or to DOE for what they should put in 22 t h e guidance for the filter?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 46 1 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, I thought Paul was 2 s u ggesting we use that. 3 MR. DOPPEL: It's there. 4 MR. MYERS: Okay. 5 MR. DOPPEL: Again, that's a working 6 d o cument. Everyone hasn't had a chance to read through 7 a l l this. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MR. RIVEST: Well, the MERV is the -- 10 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. One inch would be for the 11 s m aller sized units and then two-inch. I don't know 12 w h at the breakpoint is, but at some point, it would go 13 t o two inches. 14 MS. BARHYDT: That is actually a better way 15 t o do it than inches. 16 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. I'd like to stay away from 17 t h e inches. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 19 MR. RIVEST: Performance level? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. It's a performance. 21 MR. DOPPEL: The MERV rating is -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: It's how small the particles it

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 47 1 w i ll filter. 2 MR. DOPPEL: Right. 3 MR. AMRANE: It's how they're arranged. 4 MALE SPEAKER: I may want to put a MERV 8 5 t h at has a more pressure belt than a one-inch. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, exactly. 7 MR. AMRANE: So just put it in the MERV. 8 I t 's better. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Do you know if the -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: So the guidance would say that 11 t h at is how we would test. And we would test the unit 12 t h at was designed to be used with that filter. 13 MR. JOHNSON: Right. That's fine. 14 MR. MYERS: Either that or more restrictive. 15 A r e you okay if it was more restrictive? 16 MR. FLY: I think I'd say, "Minimum" -- 17 MR. JOHNSON: Minimum. Yes. 18 MR. FLY: -- instead of "Standard." 19 MR. JOHNSON: You want to set a minimum. If 20 t h ey want to put any filters in there, that's up to 21 t h em. 22 MS. BARHYDT: I didn't hear the last thing

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 48 1 t h at you said. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: He was just asking if they want 3 t o put bag filters in there, they can, much higher 4 r e sistance. And then he asked if people still do. And 5 t h ey do in process -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: And the test procedure may 7 a l ready say this. So please tell me, but does the test 8 p r ocedure specify right now that you just test with the 9 p r e-filter and that all the other filters are removed 10

- - 11 MR. FLY: No. 12 MS. BARHYDT: -- or does it say? Does it 13 a d dress filters in there? 14 MR. FLY: It doesn't say. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It doesn't say -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: And are you all okay with -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: -- one way or the other. 18 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, assuming we buy the 19 u n it that is shipped with the standard filter, are you 20 a l l okay with us testing with whatever filters -- 21 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 22 MS. BARHYDT: -- are normally installed in

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 49 1 i t ? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes because that's how it's 3 d o ne today. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 5 MR. RIVEST: So now we've gone once through 6 a l l the options. And we were going to come back on 7 s o me to have some discussion. There are some that we 8 s k ipped. Yes. That's what I -- 9 MR. MARANTAN: The first one we skipped was 10 c o ndenser motor options. Okay. So we are going to 11 p i ck up here on condenser fan motor options for 12 d u cting. That's the one we needed some more discussion 13 o n because we don't have a current position on it. So 14 w e would like to know a little bit more about this. 15 Okay. So the definition that we have 16 p r epared says the following, "A condenser fan motor 17 a s sembly designed for external ducting of condenser air 18 t h at providers greater pressure rise and has a higher19 r a ted motor horsepower than the condenser fan provided 20 a s a standard component with the equipment." And the 21 d e finition provided in your document is "Motor 22 h o rsepower options for driving the outdoor fan." It's

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 50 1 a little bit different. 2 MR. JOHNSON: Right, because -- 3 MR. MARANTAN: This one is -- 4 MR. JOHNSON: It's not necessarily just 5 d u cting. Like I said before, you could have a ducted 6 c o ndenser fan to the outside. You could have a 7 s i lencer or attenuator on the discharge of that 8 c o ndenser fan to quiet it down. That may not 9 n e cessarily be ducted. 10 MR. MARANTAN: But in all cases, you would 11 h a ve a different -- 12 MR. JOHNSON: It changes the -- 13 MR. MARANTAN: -- motor. 14 MR. SACHS: I'm having trouble visualizing 15 t h e ducted situation, what the common application or 16 u n common applications would be for that. And is it 17 a n ything other than a little apartment-sized apartment 18 u n its or is this large RTUs that are moved inside or -- 19 MR. JOHNSON: I think it's more of an RTU 20 t h at's -- I don't know if it's -- moved inside, maybe 21 e n caged, and then they just want to make sure they duct 22 t h at condenser fan --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 51 1 MR. SACHS: Then I'll be stuck into a 2 p e nthouse. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, in our case, 4 i t 's not a rooftop unit. It's a different type of 5 s i ngle packaged unit, could be considered a vertical 6 p a ckaged unit. 7 MR. HURST: Okay. 8 MR. WHITWELL: But we are considering it as a 9

- - you know, in this class. So the unit can be 10 i n stalled right up against the wall or it can be 11 i n stalled somewhere inside the building. And it is 12 d e signed to be ducted either -- well, both on the 13 i n door and the outdoor side. 14 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. You know, we forget we're 15 t a lking about both water-cooled and air-cooled. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. We have water-cooled 17 v e rsions of these, and we have air-cooled versions of 18 t h e same equipment. 19 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 20 MR. FLY: Water-cooled, obviously they didn't 21 h a ve a -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: Right. But they're not always

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 52 1 i n stalled. I mean, they are not installed outside. 2 T h ey are inside. And they are not always installed 3 a d jacent to the external wall, exterior wall. 4 MR. FLY: The other place you see it -- and I 5 c a n't say it is a common application because there 6 a r en't that many of these filled, but if you get to the 7 s u per tall buildings, especially a lot in Asia now and 8 t h e Middle East, you know, where they don't have a lot 9 o f water, they'll go air-cooled. And every 23 floors, 10 t h ere's a mechanical floor that has all the pumping and 11 e v erything on it. And they will install the units in 12 t h at mechanical floor and duct them in and out of that 13 f l oor through sidewall louvers. 14 Like I said, how many of those buildings -- 15 y o u know, there's ten of those buildings built a year 16 i n the world. It's a big deal. They still need 17 e q uipment. 18 MR. JOHNSON: Well -- 19 MR. SACHS: They are using 364.60-type 20 e q uipment or built-up system -- 21 MR. FLY: They are using packaged equipment. 22 L i ke I said, that is more common in Asia and in the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 53 1 M i ddle East. 2 MR. JOHNSON: VRB is applied that way very 3 o f ten. 4 MR. FLY: Right. 5 MR. JOHNSON: On a high-rise application, 6 V R B, every so often, they will have an equipment room 7 o n the outside wall. And they will duct the VRB 8 c o ndenser to the outside. 9 MR. SACHS: It's very helpful to me just to 10 b e able to visualize -- 11 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 12 MR. SACHS: -- what the applications look 13 l i ke. Thank you. 14 MR. MARANTAN: I can see that the units that 15 a r en't ducted could be tested normally. 16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 17 MR. MARANTAN: The ones with ducts, what kind 18 o f testing? 19 MR. JOHNSON: And I think your ducted 20 a p plication, you are not providing the duct. 21 MR. WHITWELL: No, we don't provide the 22 d u ctwork. It's added in.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 54 1 MR. JOHNSON: And the attenuators that we 2 w o uld put on there could be taken off. But you still 3 h a ve probably a different fan motor. 4 MR. FLY: An inappropriate fan motor and fan 5 b l ade. 6 MR. MARANTAN: So it sounds like these units 7 c o uld be tested normally. If it comes with ducting, 8 y o u just wouldn't use it. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Well, it doesn't come 10 w i th ducting, and they could be tested normally. But 11 t h e issue is when you put the larger powered motor on 12 i t , it is going to draw more power. 13 MR. JOHNSON: And there is not just one. 14 T h ere is usually -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: I think the lower part of a 16 c u rve, too. 17 MR. JOHNSON: -- six or eight on it. 18 MR. FLY: So I guess you could call it 19 d i fferent types of equipment, although it's an awful 20 s m all number of units that were out there. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Right. 22 MR. FLY: You know, it's kind of ducted

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 1 v e rsus ductless, almost. 2 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. In terms of sales, what 3 i s the magnitude of -- 4 MR. WHITWELL: It's low. 5 MR. MARANTAN: Probably it's -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: No. It's low. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Low, very low. 8 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Also, for the impact on 9 t h e test procedure, we characterize it as zero to low. 10 I guess it would be zero for those units that just have 11 s o me kind of -- you know, without ductwork, it could be 12 z e ro to low. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, if it was 14 r e quired -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: If the fan isn't operated as -- 16 i f you've got those bigger fans in there. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, maybe the test 18 p r ocedure change would have to require some external 19 s t atic pressure on the condenser side, which is a 20 s i gnificant change to the test procedure. 21 MR. FLY: Well, from a static pressure 22 s t andpoint, a condenser is going to run from a quarter

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56 1 a n d a half inch. When you duct it or put silencers on 2 i t , you are probably talking inch, inch and a half to 3 t w o inches? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 5 MR. FLY: So you are doubling the power. 6 MR. SACHS: Well, we could treat this as 7 a p plication engineers do and just do a random draw. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: It's too small. 9 MR. MARANTAN: I think we're consistent on 10 t h e impact. In your table, there's a mention zero to 11 t h ree percent as well. 12 MR. WHITWELL: That's our estimate that we 13 d e veloped based on the higher power that the motors 14 t h at we use that we specify at -- 15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. What are your thoughts 16 o n the product class for these products? 17 MR. WHITWELL: Well, we could always put ours 18 u n der the vertical packaged equipment, in which case 19 t h ere is a lower efficiency standard. And we would be 20 f i ne, I guess; right? But, I mean, we -- 21 MR. AMRANE: There has to be a definition, 22 t h ough.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean -- 2 MR. AMRANE: It has to be vertical. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, yes. And ours actually 4 i s . So -- 5 MR. AMRANE: So maybe you fit it to -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: We could, but we choose to put 7 i t under this product, consider it as part of those 8 p r oduct lines. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So let's move on to the next 10 o n e. There are a few of these that I have flagged that 11 w e wanted to hear your views. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 13 MS. BARHYDT: And then we are going to have 14 t o talk about them some. So the next one? 15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one is hot gas 16 r e heat. The definition we have here is a heat 17 e x changer located downstream of the indoor coil that 18 h e ats the supply air during cooling operation using 19 h i gh-pressure refrigerant vapor in order to increase 20 t h e ratio of moisture removal to cooling capacity 21 p r ovided by the equipment. And the definition you have 22 p r ovided says, "Additional indoor refrigerant to air

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 58 1 h e at exchanger with the diverting refrigerant valve to 2 r e direct high compressor discharged gas through air 3 c o il to reheat air from the cooling coil generally 4 l o cated behind the indoor cooling coil in the 5 a i rstream."- 6 MR. EISNER: Before we get too far ahead, we 7 h a ve got a comment from one of the people online: 8 R o dney Beever. Are you there, Rodney? Rodney, do you 9 h a ve a question? 10 Okay. We'll go back to Rodney. 11 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So the definition looks 12 t o be consistent. Is there a preference? 13 MS. BARHYDT: I was just short -- 14 MR. JOHNSON: I don't know that we have a 15 p r eference. I think we're saying the same thing, just 16 d i fferent. 17 MR. MARANTAN: Yes. It's a heat exchanger. 18 MR. JOHNSON: We're okay. 19 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. In terms of impact on 20 t e st procedure, you characterize it as one to five 21 p e rcent. We have low to medium. Pretty consistent. 22 O k ay. How about relative volume of products? What is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 59 1 t h e percentage for these? 2 MR. JOHNSON: It is a low volume right now, 3 b u t it is one that seems to be growing. There's more - 4

- 5 MS. MEYERS: We're getting a lot more 6 r e quests for this. 7 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 8 MS. MEYERS: I don't know what our volume is, 9 b u t I know it is a growing area. 10 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 11 MS. MEYERS: I would say today it is 12 r e latively low, but I see it really -- 13 MR. FLY: Relatively high for me. 14 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. And it could be -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: But you have had it -- 16 MR. FLY: Medium for me. 17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: He has had it a lot longer. 19 MR. JOHNSON: I don't mean to speak for Mark. 20 MR. MARANTAN: So low to medium? 21 MS. MEYERS: I would say I would put it at 22 m e dium.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 60 1 MR. SACHS: What I heard was growing. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 3 MR. MARANTAN: Growing. We've got that. 4 O t hers? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: That is fine. 6 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Is there a typical 7 a p plication for these, specific market? 8 MR. FLY: Anywhere that's humid, like here. 9 Y o u can open this room today. 10 MR. HUNT: But lower the temperature gets. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 12 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. What about test 13 p r ocedure modifications? Is there a way to address 14 t h ese in testing? 15 MR. FLY: The issue with the test procedure 16 i s they are not doing the work for which they are 17 d e signed to do, which is basically taking out extra 18 m o isture out of the air during the test conditions of 19 8 0 67 coming in before. You don't need to do it at that 20 p o int. It's for the higher humidity or lower load. So 21 t o get this room comfortable, we have to drop the 22 t e mperature even lower because it is humid. And if you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 61 1 c a n make the air dryer, you wouldn't have to drop the 2 t e mperature as low. So the problem -- I don't know how 3 t o accommodate the test procedure unless you change the 4 d e sign points. 5 MR. WHITWELL: You would have to change the 6 c o nditions. 7 MR. AMRANE: Change the written condition, 8 b u t -- 9 MR. FLY: And then what conditions you change 10 t h em to. 11 MR. WHITWELL: They might change not just the 12 i n door. 13 MR. FLY: The guys out on the West Coast know 14 n o thing about this. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not appropriate for them 16 o r -- 17 MS. MEYERS: Not the test procedure standards 18 o r conditions. 19 MR. SACHS: I wonder if there's room for a 20 p r oduct class that would cover this and a number of 21 o t her things that basically would be enhanced 22 d e humidification air conditioners with a test procedure

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62 1 S H R less than some value. That way you get into a 2 n u mber of the modified cycles. 3 MR. FLY: Really, what you are doing is 4 c h anging the sensible heat ratio. 5 MR. SACHS: Right, right. 6 MR. FLY: Tell the lawyers that because they 7 p r obably don't know what that means. 8 MR. SACHS: I think. Let me ask that, 9 i n stead. Could we do a simple SHR threshold below which 10 i t belongs to this additional product class or enhanced 11 d e humidifying -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: SHR at the rating condition. 13 MR. FLY: At the rating condition, no. 14 MR. SACHS: Well, that means you have to use 15 a different rating condition for that equipment. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Right. I am just saying that 17 i f you were looking at a minimum SHR at the rating 18 c o ndition to determine whether it is in this new 19 p r oduct class or not, that wouldn't work. It has to be 20 a t a different ratio. 21 MR. SACHS: So the question is whether the 22 e v olution of this basically regional product is likely

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63 1 t o be enough to warrant the effort with all the 2 d o wnstream modifications and 90.1 and everything else 3 i n there. 4 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I kind 5 o f hate to bring this up at this point, but there is 6 o n e thing we left off the list looking at our 7 C a lifornia brethren. The opposite of this is direct 8 a n d indirect cooling we have not included in our list 9 a n d have similar issues in that we're adding a lot of 10 p r essure drop with those. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Correct. 12 MR. FLY: They are doing cooling. But they 13 w o uld not be doing cooling at test conditions because 14 t h at is not the conditions you have. 15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So for the test 16 p r ocedure modification, what I heard was that it 17 r e quires a significant change to the rating conditions 18 a n d for options for new product classes, potentially 19 t h e idea of the low SHR class from Harvey. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but I don't know how you 21 w o uld define it because, again, it sounded like for 22 t e st conditions.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 64 1 MS. JAKOBS: Are you talking about changing 2 t h e test conditions or are you trying to do capture the 3 b e nefit to this feature? 4 MR. FLY: Right. 5 MS. JAKOBS: Because there is a benefit. 6 P e ople want it but at the test condition, it's not 7 a p parent. 8 MS. MEYERS: Right. 9 MS. JAKOBS: Only the downside is apparent. 10 MR. FLY: So it does save energy in the 11 b u ilding because we are overcooling the space to get 12 t h e humidity out. Everybody puts sweaters on. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 14 MR. MARANTAN: It sounds like whichever way 15 w e go, we would need the test procedure changed first. 16 O k ay. 17 MS. JAKOBS: You are identifying a new 18 f u nction. And that makes it a product class? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't understand when they 20 t h ink they can be product classes or when they can't, I 21 m e an, where you think you can go with that. 22 MR. FLY: Hasn't been decided at this point.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 65 1 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 2 MR. RIVEST: Somebody explain to me the 3 p h ysical differences between a product, basic product, 4 a n d a product that has this feature. 5 MR. FLY: It has an extra coil. It has a 6 c o ndenser coil that is in line with the evaporator coil 7 t o provide free reheat. It's reclaiming part of the 8 s t uff that you go to the outdoor coil or blow away, 9 y o u're going to bring back in and reheat the air to dry 10 i t out. 11 So ASHRAE 90.1 disallows you from using a 12 g e neral new energy to do reheat with. You can put a 13 b o iler in there, a reheat boiler in there, except in 14 c e rtain cases because you are cooling it down and 15 h e ating it back up. This gives you a means to do it 16 w i thout using any heating energy. 17 MR. RIVEST: So it is all fan power losses. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 19 MR. FLY: It's all fan power losses. 20 MS. MEYERS: At the rating condition. 21 MR. FLY: So that's why I say it's really no 22 d i fferent than the reclaim coil or the hot water or

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 66 1 c o ol water or the runaround loop and that coil because 2 i t is just an extra coil in line that -- 3 MR. RIVEST: I see. I didn't understand that 4 i s what it was. I thought it was new energy. It's 5 w a ste energy. 6 MR. FLY: It's waste energy. 7 MS. MEYERS: It's waste energy, yes. 8 MR. STEM: So that's the loss. You're going 9 t o lose your sensible -- the basket as well. So you -- 10 MR. FLY: Yes. You are already losing some 11 p h ysical capacity. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Not at the rating condition. 13 MR. FLY: But not at the rating condition, 14 b u t you have a building that is operating. 15 MS. JAKOBS: So the temperature has gone up, 16 b u t it really has gone down? 17 MR. AMRANE: The temperature definitely is 18 u p . I mean, it is basically because you are cooling to 19 r e move the moisture. You are cooling below the normal 20 c o ndition of -- 21 MR. FLY: Really, what -- 22 MR. AMRANE: You have to reheat the --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 67 1 MR. FLY: -- the discharge air temperature 2 a n d heating it back to where it's -- 3 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. You have to reheat the 4 a i r to make it comfortable. 5 MR. FLY: And that does use more energy 6 b e cause the pressure ratio is higher. 7 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. 8 MR. WHITWELL: It uses more energy, but it 9 u s es less energy than the alternative but -- 10 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. 11 MR. WHITWELL: -- it is just to keep cooling 12 w h en you don't really need cooling because you need to 13

- - you might drive the air out. 14 MR. AMRANE: That's true. And that is a 15 g o od, very good, point. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 17 MR. RIVEST: So the reason why DOE might want 18 t o create a new metric and take this into account is 19 t h at because you could do this more efficiently; in 20 o t her words, have a bigger coil and less static. Is 21 t h at why? I mean, the reheat is free, but the static 22 i s n't.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 68 1 MR. FLY: The static -- 2 MR. RIVEST: Manufacturer A might have a 3 c o il that has ore restriction, consumes more energy 4 t h an another manufacturer. And DOE would want to push 5 t h at efficiency to the optimum economic point. That's 6 w h y DOE would want a test procedure change. So you 7 e i ther take this out or create a new metric that builds 8 i t in or can there be different -- are there standards 9 t h at you have about what is the allowable static drop 10 i n those units or -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: No. 12 MR. FLY: No. 13 MR. HUNT: Marshal Hunt, PG&E. You also have 14 b y pass. Until the condition requires it, you don't go 15 t h rough that coil -- 16 MR. FLY: Well, yes. 17 MR. HUNT: -- and the mix there. 18 MR. FLY: You can also be returning a mixed 19 a i r bypass, which typically in function in our 20 e q uipment reduces the size of the evaporator coil. 21 T h ey can fit in that box. So that's another wrinkle on 22 t h e whole deal. So there are several different ways --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 69 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Typically only done in the 20 2 t o ns in that category -- 3 MR. HUNT: Yes. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: -- because we don't have the 5 r o om to do those in the smaller ones. 6 MR. HUNT: It's the big stuff, yes. 7 MR. FLY: So the bigger sized equipment 8 r u nning lower capacities is more efficient than the 9 s m aller size. We all tend to make things in box sizes. 10 I f you're the top of the box, you are the worst 11 e f ficiency. If you're at the bottom of the box, you 12 a r e at the best efficiency. So in that way, the bottom 13 o f my box would have less breaker drop and be more 14 e f ficient at the end of the desk. 15 MR. SACHS: Go back to something Mark said 16 a b out ten minutes ago that we are at the point now that 17 e q uipment or my interpretation of it with the fairly 18 s t ringent standards we have now, the importance of 19 a d apting the equipment to real regional needs is the 20 p a th left for reducing energy. At one extreme, 21 M a rshall is insisting on units which have pretty warm 22 e v aporators because he doesn't care about the ability

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 70 1 t o remove stream. That saves him some energy. At the 2 o t her extreme in Washington, Atlanta, and Houston, we 3 n e ed machinery that does a better job of removing 4 m o isture. So at some point, the test procedures have to 5 e v olve or the product classes have to evolve to 6 r e cognize those divergent needs at high performance 7 l e vels and higher customer expectations as well. 8 The next time I'm going to wear a long9 s l eeved shirt. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So let's move on to the next 11 o n e. 12 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one is high13 s t atic indoor blowers, oversized motors. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry. Sorry. Before we move 15 o n to this one, do we have a position on the last one? 16 MS. BARHYDT: No. There are several of these 17 t h at we had that my notes say that we wanted your 18 f e edback. And then I need to talk to the team. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 20 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. I'd like to 21 h a ve the opportunity for next time to introduce the 22 W e stern version of this, where we have to get some pre-

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 71 1 c o oling and other things. 2 MALE SPEAKER: Direct and indirect. 3 MR. HUNT: Yes. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Do you need information or 5 w o uld you be able to do it while we're here today? 6 MR. HUNT: No, I don't want to do it today. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 8 MR. HUNT: I want to check this with some of 9 o u r lab testing people. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 11 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. High-static indoor 12 b l owers, oversized motors. The definition we have is 13 a n indoor fan assembly, including the motor that drives 14 t h e fan. It can deliver higher external static 15 p r essure than the standard indoor fan assembly sold 16 w i th the equipment. 17 MS. TUCKER: We talked about those. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. All right. Move on. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Dvu. 20 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. And then the definition 21 p r ovided in your document says, "Test CFM per ton and 22 e x ternal static pressure are often less than a customer

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 72 1 r e quires. So test break horsepower is less than the 2 c u stomer's selected motor horsepower. Customers may 3 a l so choose an oversized motor to allow more future 4 c a pacity." I think the definition on the board has a 5 l i ttle bit more straightforward aspects. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Does that definition capture 7 e v erything? 8 MR. FLY: I think it does. I think it's -- 9 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We'll go with this one? 10 A l l right. The impact characterized by us is low. And 11 i n your document, you have two to three percent and 12 z e ro to three percent. I think that's consistent. 13 MR. FLY: Well, it depends on how high is 14 h i gh. Not to be flippant, but I built equipment for the 15 U . S. Navy that had 30 inches of external static. I was 16 c o oling submarines in dry dock. Yes. The fan heat is 17 s i gnificant. So it could be more than low. And one of 18 t h e things that -- 19 MR. JOHNSON: I think it's low to medium. 20 MR. FLY: Like I think somebody said before, 21 w e have all these losses that are kind of outside the 22 s c ope of what industry considers a basic model.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 2 MR. FLY: Some of them are internal. Some of 3 t h em are external. From an engineering standpoint, 4 w h en you look at the fan, it's all the same thing. It 5 a d ds static to the fan. So at the low end of the 6 c o mmercial equipment, we're talking about two-tenths of 7 a n inch of static pressure. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 9 MR. FLY: If I add 4 or 5 inches, as opposed 10 t o two-tenths external, and so, say, I have two-tenths 11 e x ternal and I've got another inch on that, so 1.2 12 v e rsus 4 or 5 or 6 or 30, the fan energy there is huge. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 14 MR. FLY: And even, you know, if you're doing 15 s u bmarine coolers, the fan energy is more than the 16 c o mpressor energy. That's extreme case, but that 17 d o esn't mean it hasn't been built. 18 MS. JAKOBS: That's typical of commercial, 19 t h en. You can't characterize that. 20 MR. FLY: You can't characterize that. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 22 MR. FLY: And we are told what it is. Now,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 74 1 w e could tell our customers, "No, you can't buy it from 2 u s ." And I guess we could tell our customers, "No, you 3 c a n't buy it from anybody." But then you get into the 4 o p erating room scenario, that you could not build an 5 o p erating room suite in the United States. And I don't 6 t h ink that is going to make you very popular with this 7 t h ing. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: We have to go in the medical 9 c a re business because we are all aging. 10 MR. FLY: Or any of us. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I mean, because you have 12 e q uipment here and it goes from 3 through 63 tons, the 13 s m aller stuff is the smaller static. You know, you are 14 n o t seeing these used very much. You know, you start, 15 a n d you're 20 tons in equipment. And you get much, 16 m u ch, much, much more diverse applications. 17 MR. FLY: Three-quarters of an inch is the 18 t o p? Is that correct? It seems like -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: We're all the way up to points 20 o f -- 21 MR. FLY: I think on the -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: .35 and then .45 I thought.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 75 1 MR. FLY: Okay. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: .35 and .45 for the test 3 p r ocedure. Yes. I'm like Mark. Every day we're 4 b u ilding ones that have eight inches of static, total 5 s t atic. 6 MR. RIVEST: So the variables here are the 7 b l ower and the motor as well? 8 MR. FLY: Right. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Motor and the blower. Just 10 d e pending on what they're asking for. 11 MR. RIVEST: Right. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: And the parameters of the fan. 13 I t could be the sheaves. It could be the motor. It 14 c o uld be the fan itself. 15 MR. RIVEST: The test procedure. Is that the 16 s t atic it's at? And how did it happen? Why are there 17 t w o to three different statics? 18 MR. FLY: We're not old enough to know that. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: I am not an fan expert. 20 MR. FLY: I don't know where that stuff came 21 f r om, but -- 22 MR. AMRANE: What? The history of the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 76 1 s t atic? 2 MR. FLY: The history of where the static was 3 h a s been around since -- 4 MR. AMRANE: That is before my time. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: I think it is really because of 6 w h at a test room can set up -- 7 MR. AMRANE: I think so. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: -- and be -- you know, you are 9 g o ing to have to have ductwork on it. And you have, 10 y o u know, essentially the correct turns in the 11 d u ctwork. And the more static you are, the bigger that 12 h a s to get and the longer it has to get. 13 MR. AMRANE: You are right. We talk about 14 c h ange in the test procedure. I think it's fine, but 15 a t the same time, we need to be practical. I mean, 16 w h at can we test practically: Intertek or UL or 17 w h atever? Because yes. We're talking about higher 18 s t atic pressure, but then you have to build a room that 19 c a n do that which it sometimes could be difficult or 20 s o metimes could be impossible. I don't know. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And -- 22 MR. AMRANE: So it has to be practical. It

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 77 1 h a s to be cost-effective because, you know, those tests 2 a r e not free. I mean, they cost quite a bit. So time. 3 I mean, we are trying to capture everything, but at the 4 s a me time, we need to be practical at the end of the 5 d a y. And there are things that maybe do not learn. We 6 g o too much into the weeds here. I mean, that's my 7 p e rsonal opinion. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. When we were negotiating 9 w i th the ASHRAE 90.1 mechanical equipment subcommittee 10 f o r the VRF standards, Dick Lord said that the reason 11 f o r the static was it was like 300 feet of ductwork 12 t h at was the basis and that's what would be needed to 13 p r ovide that. And so that's why we added additional for 14 t h e nine ducted VRF systems, we added additional nine 15 t o compensate for that same amount of distance. 16 MR. STEM: You were at 175. There are nine 17 p o ints on that table. But if you are going to go -- 18 t h is is similar to what you are talking about with the 19 I S O brick; right, same application? But I don't think 20 s t ill going above an inch or two, I don't know if 21 t h at's really applied at that point. 22 MR. FLY: There's a lot of flexible duct and

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 78 1 t h ings in this test setup that would blow up at some 2 p o int. 3 MR. STEM: Yes. This all has to be -- any 4 t i me you go over a half-inch or even above an inch, 5 y o u're going to have to -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: Right. And it's -- 7 MR. STEM: I understand it's a 500,000 BTU 8 u n it. 9 MR. WHITWELL: And it's not just one room 10 w h ere you have to do that. You have to be -- all the 11 m a nufacturers would have to change their tests for 12 t h ese as well as the --] 13 MR. FLY: All the independent labs. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 15 MR. RIVEST: So what is the benefit of the 16 s l iding scale based on horsepower for static versus 17 j u st consenting it? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, those are set up, Paul 19 w a s saying, around that 300 so that we're comparing the 20 s a me system with 300 foot of ductwork. So a 20-ton 21 s y stem and a 5-ton system with 300 foot of ductwork 22 e a ch has its -- when you ride the curve, each is going

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 79 1 t o have a different ESP. So we're set up so that we're 2 k i nd of all in the same basis of comparison. 3 MR. RIVEST: No. But I meant going forward 4 h e re. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay. 6 MR. RIVEST: It seems like there are two 7 o p tions. One is to just order the motor. That is 8 d e signed to work at the static pressure of the test 9 p r ocedure. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: That is what we do. I mean, 11 w h en we provide a day in July, we make sure that it 12 g e ts a motor in there that is appropriate for that test 13 c e nter. 14 MR. RIVEST: And what we talked about also 15 w a s if you were to try and test it, it has a larger -- 16 b e cause it was designed for a higher static. Is the 17 s t atic design something that someone, an observer, 18 c o uld see what that is or is that a spec that is hidden 19 s o mewhere? If I am testing that unit and it is 20 d e signed for two inches, would I know that from looking 21 a t the unit? 22 MULTIPLE SPEAKERS: No.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80 1 MR. FLY: That is required by the customer. 2 A n d in our model string, static is not. The horsepower 3 m i ght be in there. 4 MR. RIVEST: So I could look -- 5 MR. FLY: But the static and actual CFM are 6 n o t in that model string anywhere. It's auxiliary data 7 f o r us. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: They just send it to us in the 9 d a ta. 10 MR. FLY: And every one of them will be 11 d i fferent because every building is different. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Well, actually -- 13 MR. FLY: So there is an infinite number of 14 t h ose. You can't say, "This is my four-inch unit." 15 MR. RIVEST: The table you were talking about 16 e a rlier for water, what are the actual water variables? 17 MR. FLY: And I think that is a relatively 18 s m all range. I don't know. I don't do that much. 19 M a ybe the guys who test it know better, but -- 20 MR. STEM: So what are you asking about, the 21 v a riables? 22 MR. RIVEST: I mean, is it horsepower on one

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81 1 a x is and watts on the other or -- 2 MR. STEM: No. Basically, it is static 3 p r essure. And then you have, you know, the 4 f u ndamentals of physics to convert that from -- 5 MR. RIVEST: So I can't use that table unless 6 I know the design static of our -- 7 MR. STEM: You basically set everything back 8 t o a zero static. The way that function is set up is 9 t o adjust everything back to a normal level playing 10 f i eld. 11 MR. RIVEST: Do you know what I'm saying; 12 r i ght? If you test the unit with a big motor and you 13 g e t a certain EER or just watts -- 14 MR. STEM: If you test with a big motor, you 15 a r e going to have to increase the static, increase the 16 r e sistance that we put on that unit to get that higher 17 s t atic so that the correction factors would be active. 18 I f you put a bigger unit in there and didn't or a 19 b i gger motor in it and then didn't run the static, your 20 a i r cool is going to be off the charts. You are not 21 g o ing to get the heat -- 22 MR. RIVEST: I thought the point of the table

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82 1 w a s to not have to do any of that, was to just say, 2 " H ere is the performance with the 5 horsepower. Here 3 i s the performance with the 25 horsepower." 4 MR. STEM: Table. 5 MR. FLY: Well, there's a correction in 6 t h ere. Like you're saying, it's for water source. But 7 I think it's a fairly minor correction, too. We're not 8 t a lking about one to four inches, which -- 9 MR. RIVEST: Are you saying you couldn't even 10 t e st it if it's a unit that was designed for a high 11 s t atic? You couldn't test it at .5? 12 MR. FLY: It depends on what -- I mean, we're 13 t a lking a range of baskets here from 65 to 505 or 14 i n finity or whatever the upper limit is. So it's all 15 g o ing to be very dependent on the facility, on space, 16 o n how it houses the discharge. I mean, the larger 17 u n its, not currently. Smaller units, yes. 18 MR. RIVEST: Okay. 19 MR. FLY: So if you put the fan on VFB, you 20 c o uld turn that fan that is supposed to do -- let's 21 t h row some numbers out. Four inches of static 22 p r essure. Say it's got a 20 horsepower drive. You are

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 83 1 g o ing to take it down to half an inch to get the test 2 c o ndition. You put on a VFB. And you can slow that 3 f a n down. It's barely turning, and it's probably 4 p r oducing half an inch. You're running at a tenth of 5 t h e max horsepower. The motor efficiency may be 20 6 p e rcent or 25 percent now for that 78 percent efficient 7 m o tor because you are running it way off of where it 8 o u ght to be running. That's the issue. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Next slide. 10 MR. MARANTAN: Moving on to the next slide -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: I don't have an answer for you. 12 MR. FLY: We don't either. 13 MR. MARANTAN: This one is barometric relief, 14 p o wered exhaust, powered return air. And we have a few 15 d e finitions, one for each. Barometric relief and 16 a s sembly with dampers. It means to automatically set 17 t h e damper position in a closed position and one or 18 m o re open positions to allow venting directly to the 19 o u tside, a portion of the air; that is, returning to 20 t h e unit, rather than allowing it to recirculate to the 21 i n door coil and back to the building. Start with that 22 o n e.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84 1 MR. FLY: Okay. These are all operating 2 m o des where the unit is pulling in outside air, outside 3 a i r standard. When you pull outside air into the 4 b u ilding, it has to go somewhere. And I'm sure you 5 h a ve all walked up to buildings, probably in D.C., 6 w h ere the doors are standing open. That's because they 7 a r e not properly handling this. So they brought too 8 m u ch outside air in and didn't give it any place to go. 9 S o barometric relief is the simplest way of relieving 10 i t . Basically, you just have a way the damper kicks 11 o p en to put pressure in the building and, therefore, 12 i n side the return section of the unit, you tell it not 13 t o open. 14 So from our standpoint, just the test 15 p r ocedure, which I think the labs are already doing 16 p r etty much, is just that if there is such a thing, you 17 s e al it off and make sure that it doesn't open during 18 t h e test. 19 MR. STEM: But everybody has a different 20 p h ilosophy on what standard lab practice is and how to 21 s e al it up, tape and cardboard is good or any of the -- 22 b a g over it. I mean, so any time you can clarify, it

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 85 1 w o uld be nice for us. 2 MS. BARHYDT: How sealed is sealed? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: And also on your descriptions, 4 t h is is kind of back to what we were talking about, 5 e c onomizers, before, you are doing a lot of description 6 h e re around dampers and what today's technology is. I 7 d o n't know that tomorrow if you sat down, you would do 8 t h is. You can do this all with sensors. So, you know 9

- - 10 MR. JOHNSON: But if you exempted 11 e c onomizers, you're pretty much going to have to exempt 12 t h is option as well. 13 MS. MEYERS: Because it goes in -- 14 MR. JOHNSON: It goes hand in hand with 15 e c onomizers. 16 MR. FLY: This is really an economizer mode 17 o p erationally. 18 MR. FLY: The bigger issue is the power -- 19 MR. MARANTAN: Let's see. For the barometric 20

- - 21 MS. HOOTMAN: That induces the motor. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, before we go on, for

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 86 1 t h e barometric relief, is that something that we need 2 t o say that we wouldn't buy one that had that or is it 3 e n ough to say that the test procedure, under the test 4 p r ocedure, if we buy one that had that, you seal it 5 o f f, we clarify how to seal it off and we would clarify 6 i t that way? 7 MR. JOHNSON: That would be fine. 8 MR. MYERS: Yes. Either way you could do it. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 10 MR. MARANTAN: The next one is powered 11 e x haust. And that is a fan that transfers directly to 12 t h e outside portion of the building air that is 13 r e turning to the unit, rather than allowing it to 14 r e circulate to the indoor cooling, back to the 15 b u ilding. So I take that to mean the same concept, but 16 i t is powered by a fan. So would -- 17 MR. FLY: It serves the same purpose on 18 l a rger buildings. You know, we talked about 300 feet 19 o f ductwork on the supply side? If you have 300 feet 20 o f ductwork on the return side, high-rise building or a 21 l o t of commercial buildings, then there is going to be 22 s i gnificant air pressure drop. Say there is a quarter-

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 87 1 i n ch of air pressure drop in the ductwork getting from 2 t h e room, from the front door to where that is. You 3 a r e going to pressurize that building by a quarter inch 4 b e fore you would open the barometric relief damper. So 5 y o ur front door will stand open again and blow air 6 c o nditioning out to the world. 7 And exhaust and return are minor 8 m o difications on the same thing. It's kind of the 9 p o sition of the unit, whether it's before or after the 10 r e turn duct. So they are similar applications and 11 s i milar problems, but they are extra fans that were put 12 i n there as a convenience to the other because you 13 c o uld also put an inline fan in the return ductwork. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Or you could in just the 15 b u ilding exhaust, totally another whole system. 16 MR. FLY: A whole exhaust system. But, you 17 k n ow, it's more costly. And it does not operate in 18 c o ncert with the unit, how much outside air we're 19 t a king in. So the control is always much less. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 21 MR. FLY: And you have a lot -- you are going 22 t o waste more energy by not having it in the unit than

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 88 1 h a ving it in the unit or it's all -- 2 MR. MARANTAN: So for the powered exhaust, 3 w o uld it be okay to treat that similar to the 4 b a rometric relief and just leave that component off 5 d u ring the test and seal it up? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Some designs are in a return 7 a i r strain, so, therefore -- 8 MR. FLY: Return fans, you could leave that 9 i n there because you -- 10 MR. MARANTAN: That would be the next one, 11 r i ght? Powered return? 12 MR. FLY: Yeah. 13 MR. MARANTAN: That is -- 14 MR. STEM: A lot of questions on how properly 15 s e aled it was. And even with the barometric relief, if 16 i t is an option, I think it would be preferred to go 17 h a nd in hand with the RBs, maybe slide that over in 18 t h at group that is already excluded, exempted. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: and I guess I would kind of go 21 b a ck to the question, why would you want to buy it if 22 y o u are going to seal it off?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 89 1 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know why I would. I'm 2 j u st asking. 3 Gathering information. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Because when you talk about 5 a n other motor, it is expensive. I mean, there is money 6

- - there is real money. 7 MR. RIVEST: I don't think we would 8 p r oactively want to do that. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 10 MR. RIVEST: It is only in a situation where, 11 y o u know, some product has been identified by a third 12 p a rty as being non-compliant. If you want to bring in 13 t o test it, and it is -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 15 MS. BARHYDT: So when Aris asked about the 16 p o wered exhaust, several people talked about the fan 17 b e ing in the return air. 18 MR. MARANTAN: That is the next one. 19 MS. BARHYDT: But with regard to the exhaust, 20 i f the fan is off and the opening is sealed, is there 21 a n impact? 22 MR. FLY: If the opening is sealed and the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 90 1 f a n exhaust -- in a true exhaust fan, there shouldn't 2 b e an impact. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 4 MR. MARANTAN: We had that as zero impact. 5 MR. FLY: Right. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 7 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Now, the next one is 8 p o wered return air, slightly different. A fan that 9 d r aws building air into the equipment. 10 MR. JOHNSON: This is a fan that is basically 11 i n line with the supply fan. 12 MR. MARANTAN: Right. 13 MR. JOHNSON: And it is -- you know, it draws 14 t h e air back from the space and either sends it through 15 t h e equipment or sends it out the exhaust. And so, you 16 k n ow, this is a fan that is maybe one size smaller than 17 t h e supply fan, so it is not an insignificant fan. And 18 i t may be, you know, a motor or two down in size, so it 19 i s a significant option. 20 MR. FLY: And if you turn it off, you have a 21 f a n that you have to pull air through -- 22 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 91 1 MR. FLY: -- where you have kind of a 2 s p inning orifice, and it comes with a lot of pressure 3 a r ound it. 4 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 5 MR. FLY: If it's off. And they're never off 6 i n operation. 7 MR. JOHNSON: No. And supply and return go 8 h a nd in hand when the unit operates. 9 MR. FLY: But these are typically for units 10 t h at have a significant amount of outside air that goes 11 i n them all of the time. 12 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 13 MR. FLY: Where you've got lots of 14 v e ntilation load. And, unfortunately, the standards 15 d o n't -- or the metrics don't address outside air. 16 MR. JOHNSON: No. 17 MR. FLY: Well, like I said, if you exempt 18 e c onomizers, this should be exempted as well. 19 MR. JOHNSON: Return fans always go with 20 e c onomizers. I can't think of a case -- 21 MR. FLY: Yes. 22 MR. JOHNSON: -- where they don't.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 92 1 MR. FLY: Agreed. 2 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. In terms of impact for 3 t h ose powered return air units, we characterize it as 4 l o w to medium, and I didn't see one in your writeup. 5 MR. FLY: It is at least medium. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 7 MR. MARANTAN: Medium? 8 MR. FLY: Yeah. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Well, we did have five 10 p e rcent on the return fan, and then -- 11 MR. FLY: Is that five percent, medium, 12 w a sn't it 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It is medium. It is 14 a n other motor. 15 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I wouldn't consider it 16 l o w. I would just consider it medium. 17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Medium. How about 18 r e lative prevalence for these three types? 19 MR. FLY: Larger equipment, quite prevalent. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. The above 20 tons, 20 to 21 6 3 tons, quite prevalent. 22 MR. FLY: They have one or the other.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 93 1 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, the nature of the -- 2 e v erything we have said, the nature of the much longer 3 d u ct runs, much more static, much more outside air, 4 b i gger buildings, just -- 5 MR. FLY: Forty to 50 percent or more? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yeah. Easily 40. Yeah. 7 W e ll, I mean, basically ASHRAE -- 8 MR. FLY: Up to 63 ton would -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. ASHRAE says that you're 10 g o ing to have an economizer on every single one of 11 t h ose. So, you know, you're going to have to deal with 12 a l l of this significant outside air. 13 MR. MARANTAN: So I heard 40 to 50 percent 14 f o r larger equipment? How about smaller? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, gosh. Some of these don't 16 e v en go on -- I mean, go on in third party in our small 17 s t uff. 18 MR. MARANTAN: Low prevalence? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It's low. 20 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We already addressed 21 t h e -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: Low to medium maybe, right?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 94 1 MR. MARANTAN: Low to medium? 2 MR. WHITWELL: We are talking about all 3 t h ree? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, medium being five percent? 5 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Then low to medium, 8 y e ah. 9 MR. FLY: I mean, we do some recircing only 10 i f somebody has a dedicated outdoor air system. But 11 t h at's the only case you won't have it in a commercial 12 b u ilding. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 14 MR. HUNT: And in California you go clear 15 d o wn to, what is it, six or seven tons for economizers 16 c o ming January 1st. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. But usually its own 18 r e lief damper and those kinds of things can probably 19 h a ndle it, you know, and having to power it. 20 MR. HUNT: To seal it, yeah, correct. Thank 21 y o u. 22 MR. EISNER: Okay. And we already discussed

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95 1 t e st procedure issues, how we would address them. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Did we discuss it for returns? 3 I mean, is there a way to address it for powered return 4 a i r? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry? 6 MS. BARHYDT: Is there a way to address 7 t h e powered return air in a test procedure? Or is that 8 j u st -- 9 MR. MARANTAN: No. No. 10 MS. JAKOBS: Unless you can bring outside air 11 i n the test procedure, I don't know how you are going 12 t o do it. We already discussed how that is a problem. 13 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I understand that. If you 15 a r e in a house with outside air, it wouldn't just be 16 o u tside air. You would want conditioned outside air, 17 r i ght? 18 MR. MARANTAN: Right. So it's not -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: No. Right. I understand that. 20 MR. FLY: It is really almost another room 21 t h at -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. That is another room

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 96 1 w h ere you are simulating the mix and -- 2 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one I have is 3 b r oadcast bypass. 4 MR. JOHNSON: This is Tom Johnson. Can we 5 c i rcle back, just for a second, to filtration? I think 6 a s we put this list of options together, we were 7 p r imarily thinking about packaged equipment. But my 8 w a ter source heat pump guy, God bless him, I think he 9 i s listening on the phone, just reminded me, he said 10 t h at their standard filter in a water source heat pump 11 i s MERV 3. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yeah. That's true. 13 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. So we -- as we put this 14 o p tion list together, there are some on the end there. 15 T h ere are some that apply directly to the water source 16 h e at pump. And so we just wanted to do one option list 17 t o try and cover everything for the broad range of 18 p r oducts. And so -- 19 MR. FLY: For the broad/narrow range of 20 p r oducts. 21 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. So we almost have to -- 22 y o u know, when we get into MERV meetings, we have got

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 97 1 t o be cognizant of the type of equipment we are talking 2 a b out. So -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: So on that one -- 4 MR. JOHNSON: MERV 3. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Three. 6 MS. TUCKER: Oh, sorry. 7 MR. AMRANE: But there might be other things 8 t h at you would like to -- you will be addressing with 9 t h e water source heat pump that might be a little bit 10 d i fferent than this list, too. 11 MR. JOHNSON: Well, what we tried to do on 12 t h is option list is, at the end, we added three or four 13 s p ecific options that would affect a water source heat 14 p u mp. Okay? And that is how we have addressed options 15 f o r -- you know, like I said, for the broad range of 16 p r oducts we are talking about. And so we have got to 17 b e careful as we go through this. 18 MS. BARHYDT: So my plan is to draft up 19 s o mething, and everyone can read it and it is -- 20 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 21 MS. BARHYDT: If it is too limited in terms 22 o f the products, or if there are other technical

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98 1 c o ncerns, or anything like that -- 2 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. 3 MS. BARHYDT: -- we will deal with those at 4 t h e next -- 5 MR. JOHNSON: That would be great. That 6 w o uld be acceptable. 7 MS. BARHYDT: But certainly, as we go through 8 i t , if -- things like this, please raise them now, so 9 t h at the draft can be -- 10 MR. JOHNSON: We will do our best. 11 MS. BARHYDT: -- as complete as possible. 12 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one is hot gas 14 b y pass. The definition we have is a method to adjust 15 t h e cooling delivered by the equipment in which some 16 p o rtion of the high pressure refrigerant in the 17 d i scharge of the compressors is diverted from its 18 n o rmal flow to the outdoor coil and is, instead, 19 a l lowed to enter the indoor coil. The definition in 20 t h e Word document you provided is much longer. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Does this capture it? 22 MR. FLY: The purpose of the device is to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 99 1 m o dulate the capacity of the compressor. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 3 MR. FLY: And that is the only thing I don't 4 s e e up there. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 6 MR. FLY: To modulate the capacity of the -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: It is all refrigerant. I mean, 8 n o t to be -- you know, some of these other things we 9 h a ve been talking about have air flow and, you know, 10 o t her things involved. This is all refrigerant, and it 11 m o dulates the lowest step of the largest compressor or 12 l a rgest refrigerant circuit. 13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Can we add that to the 14 e n d? "To modulate the capacity of the unit." 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 16 MR. FLY: It is the compressor. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Is that -- 18 MR. FLY: It is actually to modulate the 19 c a pacity of a compressor. 20 MR. MARANTAN: A compressor. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Or -- 22 MR. FLY: Or a refrigeration circuit.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 100 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Let's put "refrigeration 2 c i rcuit." 3 MR. FLY: You want to say "refrigeration 4 c i rcuit." It's probably more precise. 5 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How's that? Okay. In 6 t e rms of impacts to the energy use, I think you 7 c h aracterize it in your document as two to three 8 p e rcent. We have hot gas bypass would be closer for -- 9 c l osed for the EER test; therefore, zero. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. But those associated 11 v a lves are still in the system, so there is an 12 a s sociated pressure drop, refrigerant pressure drop. 13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So with that in mind, 14 w o uld it be low? 15 MR. FLY: I think it's low. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It's low. 17 MR. FLY: It's low in the EMF. 18 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So that would be zero 19 t o two percent. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 21 MR. FLY: I don't think we agree among 22 o u rselves now that --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 101 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 2 MR. STEM: I'm nervous seeing this because, 3 o b viously, you get three loops in every refrigeration 4 s y stem we have to control the test loops. You have to 5 g e t the coil temperature dialed in to tenths of a 6 d e gree to get the right amount of moisture, so we are 7 n o t doing unnecessary work. I have a very difficult 8 t i me bleeding, without redundant king valves, someone 9 w i th a lot of other stuff, to shut off the hot gas that 10 w e are going to be injecting back into those coils, 11 t h at we are going to keep that from happening. I mean, 12 e v ery valve we had, if it's not in the king valve after 13 t h e -- you know, the hot gas valve, the modulated hot 14 g a s valve that we get, you would never get it to close 15 o f f. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: They all have -- 17 MR. STEM: And if I'm bleeding hot gas, you 18 k n ow, a standard rating test, if I'm bleeding hot gas 19 i n to the coil, it is not going to be good for me, 20 e i ther one. So that is one other thing to think about. 21 MR. FLY: You know, from a technology 22 s t andpoint, a lot of this is going away. I think these

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102 1 a r e on the decline, the exception being probably 2 d e dicated outdoor air system, which is going to be 3 d i fficult to define because we are getting into ten or 4 e i ght percent outside air. Is that dedicated or not? 5 But, you know, when you have high -- high 6 t u rndown, when you have a need to make one or two 7 d e grees of cooling and some final condition, then you 8 h a ve to really kill the capacity of that compressor and 9 p r ovide a little bit -- that is really their 10 a p plication for that. 11 I think it will look completely different in 12 h e re. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, no question about that. 14 T h e technology is -- 15 MR. FLY: Those big compressors are going to 16 c o me up. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. You know, with the 18 t e chnologies that are coming out, it is going to 19 d i minish 20 MS. BARHYDT: The current volume. 21 MR. MARANTAN: What are some of those other 22 t e chnologies?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 103 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Variable speed compressors, you 2 k n ow, modulating compressors that have step modulation 3 c o ming down in relative size. 4 MR. FLY: Things that we don't know about 5 y e t. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 7 MR. FLY: Haven't invented yet probably. 8 MR. RIVEST: How would you demonstrate the 9 b e nefit of a new technology, this technology -- 10 MR. FLY: In a part load rating. 11 MR. AMRANE: IER. 12 MR. FLY: IER. It will show up a lot in IER. 13 MR. WHITWELL: The benefit of this is only in 14 p a rt load. 15 MR. FLY: So basically what you are doing 16 w i th this is you are false loading that compressor with 17 i t s own condenser gas. So you are almost -- I mean, 18 y o u are not quite running at 100 percent power at a 19 p a rt load condition, but you are running at slightly 20 l e ss. So if you are running at 25 percent load 21 c o ndition, say as a single compressor unit, you know, 22 y o u are probably running 90 percent of the power and 25

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 104 1 p e rcent of the cooling with hot gas bypassing the 2 v a lve. So it's a big deal. 3 MS. JAKOBS: A better place on the motor -- 4 MR. FLY: Yeah. So -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: So, and what it was used for 6 k i nd of in the past is, you know, a little bit of what 7 M a rk was saying yesterday of the, you know, process 8 a p plication where the toner had to be at a certain 9 d e humidification point and certain grains, and you had 10 t o make sure that that was happening. When your lowest 11 s t ep was still 20 tons of a circuit, you needed somehow 12 a way to get down to a 10-ton kind of a way so you were 13 f a lse loading that circuit so that it would stay dried 14 o u t, dehumidified, and keep those grains of that -- in 15 t h at particular process, whatever it might be, whether 16 i t is -- 17 MR. FLY: Or you can turn it off and on. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Because turning it off 19 a n d on was the other way of doing it, driving that 20 t e mperature way down just like we were talking about 21 t h is conference room, and waste energy doing that when 22 w e did that. So these are the kind of a way to get

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 105 1 t h at other step. 2 And now modulating, we are going to be able 3 t o go down weight, hopefully, you know, below those 20- 4 t o n circuits with modulating compressors and step 5 c o mpressors and things like that to provide those kind 6 o f things. And they are more optimized in their motor 7 p e rformance, and the compressors are more optimized, so 8 y o u are going to have a better operating map. 9 MR. FLY: But that is an emerging technology 10 t h at most of us don't offer now -- well, hardly any of 11 u s offer now because the compressor manufacturer hasn't 12 g o tten there yet. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 14 MR. FLY: But it is coming. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It is coming. 16 MR. FLY: It is coming. They are all working 17 o n it. 18 MR. RIVEST: And this part load test is in 19 d e velopment. 20 MR. WHITWELL: IER? It's in AHRI's 21 c e rtification program. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. I mean, in AHRI, in

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 106 1 t h e test procedure, we, AHRI, said -- you know, made it 2

- - I mean, we didn't -- we made a test procedure so 3 t h ey could -- 4 MR. FLY: Like we made an EER and SEER and 5 e v erything else. So it was -- it is a 25, 50, 75, and 6 1 0 0 percent load weighted average, with differing heat 7 c o nditions in each one of those. So it is four tests 8 f o r one, which is a boom to our testing labs. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 10 MR. FLY: It also limits their capacity 11 b e cause they have to do four tests for one number. 12 MR. RIVEST: So with a change in metric, this 13 o p tion -- 14 MR. FLY: It's a change in metric, which is - 15

- 16 MR. RIVEST: -- would have to be tested. 17 MR. FLY: So it's a change in metric that 18 s h ows up, and it -- because of the significant impact. 19 I t is something that we should be judged on, because we 20 n e ed to be -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 22 MR. FLY: -- the people that do variable

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107 1 s p eed compressors or more steps should get credit for 2 i t because they do save energy. 3 MR. RIVEST: So if it exempted now, if it is 4 e x empted until some other metric -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: I think if this metric changes 6 t o IER, then it should not be exempted. 7 MR. RIVEST: And under current test procedure 8 c o nditions, it is not behaving in part load, so it is - 9

- the reality is it -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: The intent would be for it to 11 b e -- for all of the valves to be closed, so the flow 12 d o es not go through the bypass. 13 MR. RIVEST: And it's not like there is a 14 m o re efficient way to do that or that we are -- might 15 n o t measure -- might not -- instead of closing the 16 v a lves, it -- 17 MR. FLY: Well, not buying it, you don't have 18 t o worry about it. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: You won't have to worry about 20 t h ose valves or if they are leaking or have any issue. 21 MR. FLY: This valve is actually a pressure 22 r e gulator is what it is. It regulates the suction

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 108 1 p r essure to make sure that it doesn't go too low. 2 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah. I heard someone mention 3 e a rlier that these were declining in prevalence. Could 4 s o meone quantify that? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry? 6 MR. MARANTAN: I heard someone say that these 7 w e re declining in prevalence. 8 MR. FLY: I said they were declining. I 9 d o n't know about, I mean -- 10 MS. MEYERS: I don't that I would agree with 11 t h at from our standpoint. 12 MR. FLY: Really? 13 MR. MARANTAN: Are they low currently? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: What do we consider low? Can 15 e v eryone -- 16 MALE SPEAKER: Up to two percent. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Sales? 18 MR. MARANTAN: Medium? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Medium. 20 MR. MARANTAN: Two to 10? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Uh-huh. Well, okay. Here we 22 g o . I'm sorry. It is medium on our 20- through 63-ton

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 109 1 k i nd of product. Never used on our smaller products. 2 N e ver. So, and that is where the high volume is, 3 h u ndreds of thousands of units versus thousands of 4 u n its. So I guess if I put that all in the mix, yes, I 5 g u ess maybe it does get down to a two percent. 6 MR. FLY: Large product? Medium? 7 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. 8 MR. FLY: Five years from now it won't be, 9 b u t it -- 10 MR. MARANTAN: And in terms of the test 11 p r ocedure, we talked about IEER and we should capture 12 p a rt load metric. All right. 13 MR. EISNER: Why don't we take a 10-minute 14 b r eak now, come back about 12 after, 13 after. 15 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 16 MR. EISNER: Does everybody want to break for 17 l u nch around 12:00, because we started so early? Come 18 b a ck -- remember, today is the day we only go to about 19 3 : 00, and I want to leave a little time at the end to 20 t a lk about the reports to ASRAC. So why don't we get 21 g o ing where we left off. 22 MR. SHEBIK: About 11:30 maybe?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 110 1 MR. EISNER: What time? 11:30? I'm hungry 2 a l ready, so 11:30 is fine with me. 3 I think we need a vote. All those who want 4 t o break at 11:30, raise your hand. All those who want 5 t o break at 11:45, raise your hand. All those who 6 d o n't want lunch? 7 All right. I think 11:30 has it. We will 8 b r eak at 11:30. 9 Okay. Where are we? 10 MR. MYERS: The break is at 11:30, you said? 11 MR. EISNER: Lunch is 11:30. We can revote 12 o n this if we want to count votes, but I think 11:30 is 13

- - 14 MR. MARANTAN: Do you want to cover the new 15 o n es? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Let's do sound traps and 17 a t tenuators. 18 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we are going to move 19 t o sound traps, sound attenuators next. 20 Okay. The definition we have is -- 21 MR. STEM: I'm sorry. Did you finish hot 22 g a s? Or did we leave that up in the air?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 111 1 MS. BARHYDT: We are done. We are done. 2 MR. STEM: We're done with it? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 4 MR. STEM: Okay. 5 MR. FLY: But there is no decision on the -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: No. No. We have got a whole 7 b i g list here. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: But did you have a solution, 9 M i ke? 10 MR. STEM: Well, no. I mean, if it's test 11 p r ocedure, I was going to say I'd want us to try to add 12 s t eam valves and define it, but probably not preferred. 13 B u t that didn't -- I'm sorry. I'm -- 14 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Sound traps. An 15 a s sembly of structures through which the supply air 16 p a sses before leaving the equipment or through the 17 r e turn air from the building passes immediately after 18 e n tering the equipment for which the sound insertion 19 l o ss is at least three decibels for the 125 Hertz 20 o c tave band frequency range. So we have quantified the 21 p e rformance, and that is subject to discussion. 22 MR. RIVEST: Was it me?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112 1 MR. FLY: I mean, I guess that's fine. I 2 d o n't know that that's quantifying it. That's not much 3 o f a sound trap, but you said it did something. 4 MS. BARHYDT: What would be the normal 5 e x pectation for a sound trap? 6 MR. MYERS: It's, you know, at 125 Hertz, six 7 t o 10 probably. 125 Hertz is probably not the best 8 r a nge to peg; 500 would be better because they do a lot 9 m o re. 10 MR. FLY: But the specs vary. 11 MR. MYERS: But the specs vary. They are 12 r e ally designed per application. 13 MR. FLY: Absolutely. You have buildings 14 w h ere your standard equipment just doesn't quite make 15 t h e required level, so you put on three dB at 125. You 16 h a ve other schools and even local school requirements 17 t h at require many times this at a broader -- 18 MR. MYERS: So, I mean, I might get three dB 19 b y changing the discharge liner on some of the big 20 e q uipment, so it could be -- you could say you had a 21 s o und trap and not really have a sound trap at that 22 l e vel.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 113 1 MS. MEYERS: For three dB; right? 2 MR. MYERS: For three dB. If you get above 3 s i x, the theoretical maximum for a plenum attenuation 4 i s somewhere around seven, in that range, so if you get 5 u p around six or seven -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: And I think you had this all on 7 t h e supply side where we said that they could be supply 8 s i de, return side, or outside air intake. So they can 9 b e in all different positions. 10 MR. FLY: He did say "return" here. There is 11 " r eturn" on the third line down. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay. 13 MR. MARANTAN: Are you suggesting to raise 14 t h e three to six? 15 MR. FLY: I think I would raise the three to 16 s i x. That would be a good -- 17 MR. MARANTAN: So then there is no question 18 t h at it's a device. 19 MR. FLY: Not just a treatment of the 20 c a binet. 21 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So how often are these 22 i n stalled or provided with units?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 114 1 MR. FLY: They can be provided internal or 2 e x ternal. They were probably provided a fair amount of 3 e x ternal, especially with the new CM standard. 4 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. But from the factory, it 5 i s about -- 6 MR. FLY: I don't know. You probably see 7 m o re of them than I do. 8 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I would consider it low. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: It's low. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Are there different approaches 11 t o doing this? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Uh-huh. 13 MS. BARHYDT: That impact efficiency? 14 MR. FLY: Well, the bigger they are, the less 15 t h ey impact efficiency. And so if you move them inside 16 t h e unit, where we are running typically at 500 feet a 17 m i nute, they impact efficiency less than if you put 18 t h em in the ductwork where you are running usually 19 c l oser to a thousand. 20 MR. JOHNSON: Right. I mean, it's all 21 p r essure drop. 22 MR. FLY: It is all pressure drop related,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 115 1 s o , I mean, that is one of the reasons people like to 2 p u t it in there. Now, they only go in great big 3 e q uipment. You are not going to shove them into a 4 f i ve-ton unit -- 5 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 6 MR. FLY: -- because there is nowhere to put 7 i t . 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. They are all in the 20 - 9

- 10 MR. FLY: They are part of the dilemma that 11 w e get into where we are trying to meet multiple codes 12 a n d standards driven by multiple sets of people. This 13 i s actually regulated under the access board. 14 MS. JAKOBS: Right. The Americans With 15 D i sabilities Act has new requirements for schools. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And this is another 17 e x ample where, you know, not all manufacturers supply 18 t h is as part of the equipment. And so, you know, in 19 t h at case it is always put on in the field. Right? So 20

- - 21 MR. FLY: For the other guys. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. And it's very similar

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 116 1 t o some of the other things that we have talked about 2 w h ere if it is not provided as part of the equipment, 3 i t is going to be done by the -- you know, in the 4 i n stallation. 5 MR. FLY: Which may have an impact on 6 e f ficiency. 7 MR. WHITWELL: May have more impact on 8 e f ficiency, more or less or -- you know, more or less 9 e f fectivity. 10 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. In terms of those 11 i m pacts, I see that you have five to 15 percent 12 d e pending on the equipment size. We also had low to 13 m e dium. So it would be medium? 14 MR. JOHNSON: I would say medium to high, 15 a c tually. 16 MR. MYERS: Is there a feeling as to how many 17 o f these attenuation systems are installed outside the 18 e q uipment versus inside the equipment? 19 MR. FLY: Or probably even a better question, 20 h o w many are installed after the equipment is 21 i n stalled? And come back and get retrofitted in which 22 i s always really ugly. So, no, I mean, we don't have a

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 117 1 g o od feel for that. It is -- you know, if you are 2 b u ilding a concert hall or an opera house or any of 3 t h at stuff, it is going to happen, without question. 4 Schools that are falling under the new 5 r e quirements, you know, to meet those requirements, 6 w h ich not everyone has come up to speed on but are 7 r a pidly being adopted state by state, a lot of those 8 a r e going to have this equipment to meet those levels. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So it sounds like you think 10 t h at these are going to become more common as a result 11 o f some of the code requirements. 12 MR. FLY: They are probably going to become 13 m o re common, in schools especially. That's really the 14 d r iver right now. 15 MR. MYERS: Is it a safe statement to say in 16 g e neral that if it is installed with the equipment, 17 t h at if the installation needs sound attenuation, that 18 i s more efficient to install it in the equipment? 19 T h at's what I thought I heard -- 20 MR. FLY: Generally, it is more efficient to 21 i n stall it in the equipment. But it takes big 22 e q uipment to install it in.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 118 1 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. But I see this becoming a 2 g r owing part of smaller size equipment, too. 3 MR. FLY: And it may be because schools don't 4 u s ually use great big equipment. 5 MS. MEYERS: So today it is mostly in the 6 l a rger size, but the growing area is going to be in the 7 s m aller package units, which is going to be difficult. 8 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How would this be 9 h a ndled in a test procedure? Good question. 10 MR. JOHNSON: I don't think you -- 11 MR. AMRANE: How are you going to change to 12 s i x dB? You'll have to test for sound now? I mean, 13 t h is is -- 14 MS. MEYERS: I have no idea, actually. 15 MR. AMRANE: It would be outside. 16 MS. BARHYDT: But so, apart from whether or 17 n o t it qualifies as a sound trap, if you run the test 18 p r ocedure it says that it causes the pressure drop, but 19 a p art from the pressure drop and the fan having to work 20 h a rder, does the test procedure work? Will the test 21 p r ocedure run on it? 22 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. This is like -- this is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 119 1 v e ry much like high efficiency filtration. Now you are 2 a d ding a bunch of pressure drop and you are going to go 3 t o a bigger fan motor. And in the bigger equipment, 4 m a ybe even a different fan, you know, so this is very 5 m u ch like the high efficiency filtration. 6 MR. FLY: So you can test it, but you are in 7 d a nger of falling outside the -- 8 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 9 MR. FLY: -- standards. 10 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 11 MR. FLY: That is the problem. 12 MR. JOHNSON: And you can't really pull these 13 o u t of the equipment. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. No way to bypass it 15 e i ther -- 16 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 17 MS. BARHYDT: -- in the test. 18 MR. FLY: So the alternative is for us to 19 q u it supplying them and put them in the duct where they 20 p r obably are going to cause two inches of static 21 i n stead of one inch, or exempt them. 22 MR. SACHS: You all aren't getting the point.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120 1 Y o u are asking for exemptions on everything, and all 2 o u r energy savings are going away. 3 MS. MEYERS: But we don't want exemptions on 4 t h e basic refrigeration system. 5 MR. SACHS: Thank you, ma'am. I really 6 a p preciate that. 7 MS. MEYERS: We are not asking for that. 8 MR. SACHS: But you do want to use shaded 9 p u ll motors. 10 MR. WHITWELL: If we can still hit the 11 e f ficiency. 12 MR. FLY: It is getting harder and harder, 13 t h ough. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: But I love that cost point. 15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one we have is 16 f i re/smoke/isolation dampers. 17 MS. BARHYDT: And this one we are okay with 18 e x cluding. So unless somebody particularly wants to 19 d i scuss the details, my main concern is on the 20 d e finition and making sure it is clear exactly what it 21 i s that is excluded. 22 MR. MARANTAN: So the definition is a damper

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 121 1 a s sembly, including means to open and close a damper 2 m o unted at the supply or return duct opening of the 3 e q uipment. Such a damper must be rated by an 4 a p propriate test lab, according to the appropriate 5 s a fety standard such as UL-555 or UL-555S. 6 MR. FLY: Okay. There are applications where 7 t h ese are isolation dampers and fire/smoke dampers. 8 F o r instance, if you have a building design where they 9 h a ve multiple units on a common duct, doesn't happen 10 v e ry often but it is kind of like a central loop 11 c h illed water system, only with air. 12 They may want to turn some units off and 13 l e ave others running, which is -- there is no better 14 e f ficiency than off, by the way. So they want to 15 i s olate those units, so you don't backflow air out of 16 t h e supply duct, in which case they are not necessarily 17 5 5 5- or 555S-rated dampers. 18 So that is the definition of a fire/smoke 19 d a mper, though. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Is the isolation damper on the 21 u n it itself, or is it in the ductwork for the building? 22 MR. FLY: It could be either place, but we

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 122 1 g e t asked to put them in our ductwork because if it's - 2

- if you are 60-foot high up to the ceiling, it is hard 3 t o get up there and replace that damper actuator motor. 4 T h ey would much rather have it on the floor of the unit 5 i n side. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: So they are put in the 7 o p enings, the supply and return duct openings, right 8 b e fore it goes up -- either on the curb or if there was 9 d i scharge horizontally. 10 MR. FLY: Technically, my standpoint has 11 a l ways been that the fire damper ought to be at the 12 s l ab, because it is at the firewall surface. There 13 a g ain, they have to be tested periodically, and if it's 14 a n inaccessible place, especially in hospitals with 15 s h eetrock ceilings or something, a lot of times they 16 w a nt us to put them in the units. 17 From a manufacturer's standpoint, I don't 18 k n ow that we would be real upset if somebody told us we 19 c o uldn't do this anymore. From an engineering 20 s t andpoint, though, the sales guys probably have a 21 d i fferent opinion. 22 MR. STEPHENS: You know they are going to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123 1 r e ad the transcripts, right? 2 MR. FLY: Yeah. That's probably right. I 3 j u st got in trouble with my boss. 4 MR. MYERS: So should that definition -- so 5 i t should say, "Such dampers may be rated" or -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 7 MR. MYERS: "May be rated"? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It's basically a fire 9 d a mper. 10 MS. BARHYDT: How do you describe -- how 11 w o uld you define an isolation damper? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: They are almost the exact same 13 d e vice, but just not always rated. So looking at them, 14 y o u wouldn't be able to necessarily see the difference. 15 MR. MYERS: Yeah. You might have one that is 16 c a pable of meeting that, but they didn't need so they 17 d i dn't get that approval. 18 MR. FLY: Well, and typically the difference 19 i s that the fire and smoke dampers have to have -- if 20 t h ey have rubber seals on them, they have to be rated 21 f o r a temperature and they have to go through all of 22 t h is fire testing, so that the seals don't melt off of

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 124 1 t h em. If it just isolation damper, you don't need 2 t h at. So you can use a different seal material that 3 m i ght seal better but doesn't stand the temperature. 4 I f you call it a fire/smoke damper, which is required 5 b y the building codes, which basically are a part of 6 t h e architectural design of the building, then you have 7 t o have 555 or 555S. 8 MR. MARANTAN: Are we okay with this 9 d e finition now? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 11 MR. FLY: Yeah. 12 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. In terms of impacts to 13 e n ergy use, we characterize it as low to medium. You 14 h a d one to five percent, which is consistent. 15 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have to go through all 16 o f this as far as I know. 17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So the next one, then, 18 i s UV lights. The definition we have is a lighting 19 f i xture and lamp mounted so that it shines light on the 20 i n door coil that emits ultraviolet light to inhibit 21 g r owth of organisms on the indoor coil surfaces, the 22 c o ndensate drip pan, and/or other locations within the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 125 1 e q uipment. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Key thing here on those is that 3 t h ey are on all of the time. So that is actually a 4 s a fety issue for our lab technicians to be looking at 5 t h ese. They burn your retinas. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Well, we are okay with 7 e x cluding it. I just want to make sure we have what 8 e v erybody else mentioned. 9 MR. FLY: Yeah, yeah. 10 MR. MARANTAN: So how does the definition 11 l o ok? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: That's about the same. 13 MR. MARANTAN: Acceptable? Okay. 14 MS. BARHYDT: And then the additional 15 f e atures that they added to their list. 16 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah. You have a couple of 17 o t her items included in yours and -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, sometimes they do 19 a c tivate germicides that are in -- actually impregnated 20 i n materials. So they help in the activation of a 21 g e rmicide that has already been placed on stationary 22 s u rfaces.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126 1 MS. BARHYDT: Are you saying we need to -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: That is not just irradiating 3 g r owth, but it is also activating a chemical. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And it inhibits -- 5 MS. TUCKER: It still inhibits growth, but it 6

- - 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 8 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So how do we want to 9 p r oceed? There is about a dozen more that were 10 i n cluded in the other document. 11 MS. BARHYDT: So is there color coding, or 12 w h at is the -- 13 MR. FLY: I think that would be -- the color 14 c o ding had to do with our edit. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 16 MR. FLY: So I don't think they mean 17 a n ything. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So -- 19 MR. FLY: At what point they got done, this 20 w o uldn't -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: So air blenders? 22 MR. FLY: Air blenders are another outside

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 127 1 a i r device that mixes the outside and return air to get 2 a n even temperature, typically in real cold climates, 3 s o that you don't get a lot of stratification through 4 t h e unit, so if the ductwork splits, and one goes right 5 a n d one goes left, the cold air doesn't go down the 6 r i ght side and the hot air go down the left side, which 7 c a n happen. 8 But they have reasonably high static 9 p r essure, typically right after the economizer. So 10 t h ey are kind of economizer -- you don't have them 11 u n less you have an economizer. 12 MR. JOHNSON: Well, and but they are also 13 v e ry similar to sound traps, too. I mean, they just 14 a d d a lot of static pressure. 15 MR. FLY: They add a lot of static pressure 16 f o r a specific purpose. Would do nothing during a test 17 s t andard. 18 MS. BARHYDT: So you would never have one of 19 t h ese if you did not have an economizer. 20 MR. JOHNSON: No. 21 MR. FLY: No. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Because we are already

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 128 1 e x cluding economizers, so -- 2 MR. FLY: So if you want to call it part of 3 t h e economizer, we are fine with that. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Electric heat. 5 MR. WHITWELL: This can be installed in the 6 u n it as an alternative to having gas or propane heat, 7 a n d it does add to the internal static pressure. 8 MR. MARANTAN: Isn't this already addressed 9 i n the product class structure? 10 MR. WHITWELL: No. It is electric or none, 11 s o it's -- electric heat is -- I mean, it's treated the 12 s a me as having nothing in there, from a product class 13 p e rspective. 14 MR. AMRANE: Are you sure about that? 15 B e cause I think that the definition -- 16 MR. WHITWELL: There is -- 17 MR. AMRANE: It is electric or none. It is 18 t h e same efficiency when you have gas. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Right, right, right. So if 20 t h at was the question, yes, it does say electric -- 21 MR. AMRANE: Electric or none. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 129 1 MR. AMRANE: So I think it is covered by the 2 c u rrent that will be -- maybe it's a mistake, I don't 3 k n ow, but -- 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I'll say. 5 MR. RIVEST: If it's in the product class 6 d e finition, it's going to be hard to take it out. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 8 MR. MARANTAN: So in that case, can we remove 9 i t ? 10 MR. WHITWELL: I guess that would be the 11 q u estion. I don't know. 12 MR. RIVEST: You can remove the exclusion, 13 n o t the -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 15 Sorry. I couldn't hear the -- 16 MR. RIVEST: Well, if the name "electric" is 17 t h e definition of the product class, I think it is 18 i n tended to be tested. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. This was -- you know, 20 t h e whole intent here was to try to be complete. 21 MR. FLY: So we talk about all of them. 22 MR. WHITWELL: We talk about all of them.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 130 1 MR. JOHNSON: Well, and we address electric 2 h e at later for the water source heat pump because, you 3 k n ow, when you put electric heat in a smaller cabinet, 4 l i ke a water source heat pump, it does add some 5 r e sistance. I mean, it is a different -- it is a 6 l i ttle bit different design. Not a huge difference, 7 b u t it's there. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Do you want to jump ahead to 9 t h at one, or do you want to wait until we -- 10 MR. AMRANE: I think we should finish this 11 o n e. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Just go through the list? 13 MR. AMRANE: And then go back to the items 14 t h at we -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. So go ahead and jump 16 d o wn to the electric? 17 MR. AMRANE: No. What I'm saying is that 18 m a ybe complete whatever is related to those about 19 u n itary products. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 21 MR. AMRANE: And then come back to the water 22 s o urce heat pump separately.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 131 1 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, I think that is -- 2 MR. AMRANE: That's it. So we're done. 3 O k ay. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Yep. Yep. 5 MR. MARANTAN: So electric heat came out, 6 r i ght? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 8 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one is 9 a c tually for PTACs, extended depth wall sleeves, normal 10 w a ll sleeve depth is 14, extended sleeve 16 to 31. 11 MR. AMRANE: Right. I think we need to talk 12 a b out the definition itself. 13 MS. BARHYDT: The definition itself, yeah. 14 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Because I think we are 15 u s ing the old definition and we need to change that. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 17 MR. AMRANE: And then go to the options as 18 w e ll, so -- I think I have a definition if you want to 19

- - I have a definition, so -- I have it electronic if 20 y o u want to, but if you want to type or I have a -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I don't have a thing. I 22 c a n type it. It's not a big deal. This is going to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 132 1 t a ke me a minute, guys, so -- 2 MR. SACHS: How many chapters are in the 3 d e finitions? 4 MR. AMRANE: This is similar to the other 5 d e finition. It is very similar. 6 MR. EISNER: I think the word "or" should be 7 " o f." Btu/h of one another. 8 MR. SACHS: Does anybody in captivity ever 9 o r der the PTAC with eight pipes and UV purification? 10 MR. AMRANE: That's a good question. 11 MR. SACHS: Has anyone present ever sold a 12 P T AC with UV? 13 MR. JOHNSON: I'm not sure we need to list 14 a l l of these options. I mean -- 15 MR. AMRANE: Well, it has been suggested, and 16 t h at's why it is up for discussion, because -- 17 MR. SACHS: Because these are not space18 c o nstrained at all. 19 MR. HUNT: There is a place. There is a way 20 y o u can put UV in there. 21 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, there is, but -- 22 MR. HUNT: And there is a side story about

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 133 1 t h at I will tell you later. 2 MR. SACHS: I understand. But the question, 3 s i r, was, has anyone ever ordered -- 4 MR. HUNT: Yeah. 5 MR. SACHS: Really? 6 MR. HUNT: Yeah. 7 MR. SACHS: So you can't underestimate -- 8 o k ay. Well, thank you. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Be careful, Harvey. 10 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So this is the proposed 11 d e finition on the screen here. Why don't we talk about 12 t h e top part first? Is everyone okay with the top 13 p a rt? 14 MR. AMRANE: The only one in the room, 15 u n fortunately. They are the folks who are probably 16 d o n't -- the guy on the phone that -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: We are only a few years 18 r e moved from having this product. I would take 19 " e xpansion device" out. 20 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, you're right. That might 21 b e -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. Because we took it --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 134 1 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. We took it from the other 2 o n e, yeah. 3 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. "Fresh air ventilation" 4 m a ybe, not "dampers." The grill options are there, but 5 t h at -- it would be more architectural -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: Those are accessories, not 7 o p tions. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. That's true, too. That 9 w o uld be an accessory. 10 MR. WHITWELL: I would take that out. 11 MR. JOHNSON: Well, the extended wall sleeve 12 i s really -- 13 MR. FLY: An accessory, too. And does that 14 c h ange the rating? 15 MR. JOHNSON: Well, the extended wall sleeve 16 i s normally -- a wall sleeve is normally 14 inches. It 17 c a n go all the way up to 31 inches. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Does it impact the -- 19 MR. FLY: Do you need to change the equipment 20 f o r one with an extended wall sleeve as opposed to one 21 w i thout? 22 MR. JOHNSON: No. What this really is is all

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 135 1 a b out the test, you know -- 2 MR. FLY: The test procedure? 3 MR. JOHNSON: Test procedure. I think it is 4 m o re of a test procedure issue, isn't it? You just 5 t a ke your basic unit and test it. 6 MR. AMRANE: But for right now that -- there 7 a r e two standards for PTAC. There is the standard 8 s i ze, 14 by -- well, 16 by 42. 9 MR. JOHNSON: 16 by 42. 10 MR. AMRANE: And then there is the known 11 s t andard size PTAC, which is, what, it has -- 12 MR. JOHNSON: Less than 16 by 42. 13 MR. AMRANE: -- less than 16 by 42. So you 14 a r e talking about greater than 16. What are you 15 t a lking about here? 16 MR. WHITWELL: No. The 16 by 42, it's 16 by 17 4 2 , right? And what this I think is talking about is 18 t h e sleeve or -- 19 THE COURT REPORTER: Can we do one at a time? 20 S o rry. I'm not catching it. 21 MR. WHITWELL: I think it's deeper sleeve for 22 t h icker wall.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 136 1 MR. MARANTAN: It is, yeah. The standard 2 w a ll sleeve is about 14 inches, and GE and ourselves 3 h a ve seen wall sleeves go up to 31 inches, just because 4 o f the wall thickness that we are applying these in. 5 MR. FLY: Is that an accessory or is that 6 s h ipped with the unit, or shipped on the unit? 7 MR. MARANTAN: Well, it is -- you know, 8 u s ually PTACs are shipped as the chasses, and then the 9 w a ll sleeve is an accessory or an option. 10 MR. WHITWELL: It is shipped ahead of the 11 c h asses, so that they are installed in the building at 12 t h e time the building is being built. And then the 13 c h asses get put in later. But it is required for test. 14 Y o u need the wall sleeve for test. 15 MR. JOHNSON: So, and normally and that would 16 b e a standard wall sleeve, 16 by 42, and 14 inches 17 d e ep. 18 MR. MARANTAN: In terms of energy impact, the 19 e s timate you provided was three to five percent for the 20 l a rgest wall sleeve, a 31-inch wall sleeve. 21 MR. JOHNSON: I'm sorry. Say that again. 22 MR. MARANTAN: For the largest wall sleeve,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 137 1 t h e 31-inch wall sleeve, the estimate for energy 2 i m pacts was three to five percent. 3 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 4 MR. MARANTAN: In terms of testing, would it 5 b e reasonable just to order a unit with a standard wall 6 s l eeve? 7 MR. JOHNSON: It would be my suggestion that 8 i s what we would do, yes. 9 MS. BARHYDT: How does the wall sleeve impact 10 t h e efficiency? 11 MR. JOHNSON: We don't change the equipment, 12 s o you are adding static pressure on the outside air 13 f a n. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think the other thing, 15 t o o, is, remember, the air is coming -- the condenser 16 a i r goes in and out through the back. So you could 17 p o ssibly have more recirculation. 18 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, you could. That's right. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 20 MR. DOPPEL: But you are also -- it is almost 21 l i ke creating like side ducts, too. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Well, yeah. There is going to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 138 1 b e some static pressure. 2 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 3 MR. SACHS: But three to five percent of the 4 f a n energy or three to five percent of the -- 5 MR. DOPPEL: Condenser fan. Condenser fan. 6 MR. SACHS: -- condenser fan energy, but that 7 i s not three to five percent of the -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: On the EER. 9 MR. SACHS: -- of the EER. 10 MR. JOHNSON: I'd have to go back and look at 11 w h at the -- 12 MR. DOPPEL: I am assuming. I don't know -- 13 I am assuming that they are talking about total unit 14 e f ficiency, right? 15 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. It would be total 16 u n it efficiency. 17 MR. DOPPEL: Well, if you mention wall 18 s l eeve, where, you know, everything just moves right 19 t h ere, and then you add up to 17 inches, and then you 20 h a ve dividers, do you can -- you know, in essence, you 21 c r eate 17 inches worth of ductwork. So that increases 22 t h e fan power required to overcome that.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 139 1 MR. SACHS: I understand that. I guess I'm 2 j u st surprised that the initial fan power is that large 3 a fraction of the total energy tab at five percent 4 e f fect on EER. I'm sure it's true; it just sort of 5 s u rprised me. 6 MR. DOPPEL: Well, it's -- 7 MR. WHITWELL: That's not fan power you're 8 t a lking -- that's the impact on the refrigeration 9 s y stem. 10 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. I mean -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: You are driving up the 12 c o ndensing temperature. 13 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. The circulation of that 14 a i r really hurts the compressor power. So -- 15 MR. SACHS: It is what it is. 16 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 17 MR. SACHS: I think the only thing to do is 18 t o just test them with the basic sleeve, recognizing 19 t h at the customer ain't going to get what she thinks 20 s h e is getting. 21 MR. JOHNSON: Right. And I don't have -- I 22 h o nestly don't have a number for how many times we see

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 140 1 a n extended wall sleeve, and, you know, what that 2 u s ually is. 3 MR. SACHS: Well, thinking of these comments 4 b e ing fairly common applications of roadside 5 h o spitality and stuff like that, is the whole market 6 s y stem such that the designer is going to understand 7 t h e implications? 8 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. And where you also see 9 t h is is in the high density areas like New York City. 10 N e w York City uses a lot of people. 11 MR. DOPPEL: They would also use more of the 12 e x tended -- because that is -- a lot of the hospitality 13 i s not thick wall. 14 MR. SACHS: Yeah. 15 MR. DOPPEL: So I think this would be very, 16 v e ry low. 17 MR. JOHNSON: I would venture to say it's -- 18 MR. DOPPEL: The high efficiency air 19 f i ltration, I mean, that's -- it's pretty much -- 20 MR. JOHNSON: Well, again, in a PTAC unit, 21 t h e standard filter is a MERV 3. 22 MR. DOPPEL: Right. Generally, there is not

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 141 1 r o om for much more than that. 2 MR. JOHNSON: Right. But you will go above a 3 M E RV 3. You get the request for as much MERV as you 4 c a n in that. A water source I know will go up to MERV 5 1 3 . 6 MR. WHITWELL: Are those factory options, or 7 a r e they accessory filters? 8 MR. JOHNSON: Well, on a PTAC, they would 9 h a ve to be factory. It has to be in the unit. 10 MR. WHITWELL: The higher efficiency filter? 11 MR. JOHNSON: Any filter. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Because I think ours -- we 13 s h ip with a standard and then we would have an 14 a c cessory that would -- 15 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 16 MR. MYERS: I mean, the duct, that's 17 i n stalled in the field. 18 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 19 MR. MYERS: So I don't think that should be 20 o n here. 21 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 22 MR. MARANTAN: How about relative volume?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 142 1 D i d someone mention a number? 2 MR. JOHNSON: For extended wall sleeves? 3 MR. MARANTAN: Yes. 4 MR. JOHNSON: I am going to say low. 5 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. And the test procedure 6 m o dification, I heard someone agree that just testing 7 w i th a standard sleeve is okay. 8 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I think that would be 9 t h e right approach. Harvey said that. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay? 11 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. I think we are good 12 w i th extended wall sleeve. 13 Now, there were some other items on the basic 14 m o del definition that didn't have any inputs in the -- 15 MR. DOPPEL: Well, some of those should be 16 t a ken off, you know, after that. Like the ducting, 17 t h at should be taken off. 18 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. 19 MR. AMRANE: What else? 20 MR. DOPPEL: UV is covered. Karim, I don't 21 k n ow where this list came from. 22 MR. WHITWELL: I know we looked at it from

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 143 1 t i me to time, but we never implemented it. 2 MR. MARANTAN: All right. So we can take it 3 o f f? 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 5 MR. MARANTAN: And heat pipes? 6 MR. WHITWELL: And heat pipes, too. 7 MR. MARANTAN: Heat pipes? 8 MR. WHITWELL: And the fresh air ventilation, 9 t h at is just a door. 10 MR. AMRANE: We can follow Frank from GE. 11 MR. JOHNSON: I think if this list -- I don't 12 k n ow if this came from GE. I know he chimed in on the 13 e x tended wall sleeves, and maybe the -- what's his name 14 f r om GE has come back with things. You know, it's the 15 s t uff that -- the one-offs maybe they have been asked 16 a b out or have done in the past with it. I don't 17 r e cognize a lot of that. 18 MR. DOPPEL: The sound-reducing packages, 19 t h at is to get the STC -- you know, the minimum STC. I 20 d o n't know that anything has been added. It is just -- 21 MR. JOHNSON: Different design or different 22 f a n?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 144 1 MR. DOPPEL: Filling in different holes, 2 b e cause you are basically -- I mean, it might be more 3 i n sulation to keep the barrier. 4 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 5 MR. DOPPEL: But I don't think that that is - 6

- I can't think of anything on there that would change 7

- - 8 MR. JOHNSON: I think what happens if you 9 o r der your -- you know, your basic PTAC model and a 10 s t andard sleeve, most all of these basically go away. 11 B e cause it really is an installation issue? 12 MS. TUCKER: So keep "extended wall sleeves" 13 a n d get rid of everything else? 14 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 15 MR. AMRANE: Even the filtration and -- 16 MR. JOHNSON: Well, yeah, you could have 17 d i fferent filtration. I would take that back. 18 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we have high 19 e f ficiency air filtration and extended wall sleeves. 20 W e talked about the wall sleeves. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Are there different issues with 22 t h e high efficiency filtration for PTACs than what we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 145 1 d i scussed previously for the -- 2 MR. JOHNSON: No. 3 MR. DOPPEL: No. 4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. 5 MR. DOPPEL: And I would say that would be 6 l o w. That would be very low. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Their MERVs are way 8 l o wer. I mean, do they even have a MERV on those 9 t h ings? 10 MR. JOHNSON: No, it's MERV 3. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it MERV 3? 12 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Low volume of sales or low 14 i m pact, or both? 15 MR. DOPPEL: Very low volume of sales. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I just wasn't sure which 17 l o w you were referring to. 18 MR. WHITWELL: And they are not going to 19 c h ange "fan motor." It is just going to be a reduced 20 a i rflow. 21 MR. AMRANE: When we discussed this before 22 f o r the product, we have talked about MERV 8 as being

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 146 1 t h e -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: 3. 3 MR. AMRANE: -- 3 -- no, for the -- 4 MR. JOHNSON: We said MERV 8. 5 MR. AMRANE: For this one, it is not MERV 8. 6 MR. JOHNSON: We added MERV 3 for water 7 s o urce. 8 MR. AMRANE: Right. This one -- 9 MR. JOHNSON: It should also be MERV 3. 10 MR. AMRANE: Okay. So it should be MERV 3. 11 MR. DOPPEL: The only other thing would be C12 C O VE (ph) protection and then maybe coated coils. 13 MR. AMRANE: Maybe you should have put -- 14 MS. TUCKER: Yes. You said MERV 3? 15 MR. AMRANE: 3. 16 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Are we done with PTACs? 17 MR. JOHNSON: I think so. 18 MR. MARANTAN: I think the next one is water 19 s o urce. Okay. So going back to the list, we are at 20 2 4 . 21 MR. AMRANE: The definition, too. 22 MR. MARANTAN: Definition? Let's start with

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 147 1 t h e definition. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, good. Copy PTAC. 3 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. I think you can copy that 4 o n e. 5 MS. BARHYDT: That's right. 6 MR. AMRANE: Probably can remove the 300 btu 7 t h ing. It does not apply. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Just checking. 9 MS. TUCKER: Yeah, I got it. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Anybody flying to or through 11 A t lanta this afternoon? Well, there was a small 12 e x plosion at one of the maintenance places, so they had 13 t o shut it down for a while. Delays. 14 MR. SACHS: If it has a compressor, it is not 15 r e ally a gas heat pump. So the "or gas" seems to be 16 r u led out by the fact that it is compressor-based 17 e q uipment. 18 MR. STEM: No. Gas heat impacts the -- 19 MR. SACHS: Ah. Okay. So that would be 20 e l ectricity and gas. 21 MR. STEM: Yes. 22 MR. SACHS: That would be really weird on a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 148 1 w a ter source. Does anyone catalogue a water source 2 h e at pump with gas heat as opposed to a boiler, boiler 3 c o oling tower system? 4 MR. JOHNSON: I can't answer that. I don't 5 k n ow. 6 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So, on the copper tube and fin 8 a i r coil, correction capacitors, corrosion in water 9 c o ils, economizers, coated air coils, same sorts of 10 i s sues as we discussed for the air? Anything 11 p a rticularly unique that you want to point out about 12 t h em? Pretty much the same down the board. If there 13 i s anything in particular that you want to point out 14 t h at is -- that we should be thinking about that is 15 d i fferent about the water source test procedure, how 16 t h ese are impacted -- 17 MR. JOHNSON: Not really. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Let's a D super heater? 19 T h at wasn't on the other list. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's hooked up to the water 21 s y stem. It is taking the heat off the condenser and 22 h e ating the domestic hot water.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 149 1 MR. AMRANE: Right. So it waste heat 2 b a sically to the -- rejecting the heat to the ambient 3 o r whatever. It would basically use that heat to heat 4 t h e water. 5 So that's not on the list? Maybe we should 6 a d d that one, too. 24. 7 MS. TUCKER: It's on there. 8 MR. AMRANE: Oh, it's on there? Okay. Okay. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So for the pumps, valves, 10 f i ttings, I take it there is a standard configuration 11 o f valves, pumps, fittings? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, gosh no. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So what do you supply in your 14 b a se model to AHRI for -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: These in a way are more like 16 a c cessories. I mean, they -- you know, they tend to 17 g e t shipped with the system but put in in the field. 18 MR. MARANTAN: How about when tested in a 19 l a b? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, there are water 21 p r essure drops, so they all matter that the pressure 22 d r opped to the water side of the system. But I can't -

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 150 1

- there is nothing in the test procedure that I can 2 r e member that -- I am little bit more fuzzy on this 3 t h an air side, but -- that I can remember where you 4 w o uld put these in. They just aren't accessories that 5 a r e shipped with the systems. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 7 MR. STEM: Well, but if it's shipped with it, 8 t h en it can be in the INO. 9 MS. BARHYDT: What's that? 10 MR. STEM: If it's shipped with the system 11 a n d it's in the INO -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: What's that? 13 MR. STEM: -- if it's shipped with the 14 s y stem, and it's in the INO, you don't have to put it 15 i n . So we need to make sure we are -- I'm saying it's 16 t h ere. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: And it all depends on their 18 s y stem, how many of those pumps, how many of those 19 v a lves, and how many of those fittings they need. So 20 i t is kind of built up depending on how the system is 21 g o ing to be -- 22 MR. FLY: Is water pressure drop part of the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 151 1 c a lculation in there? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, it is. 3 MR. FLY: Okay. That is another thing that 4 i s kind of normalized out. 5 MR. STEM: Yes. They're talking about it, 6 y o u know, putting an inter-pump in there with a head 7 p r essure regulator on it, and, you know, it's -- who 8 k n ows what that is doing with the -- trying to 9 n o rmalize it out. I mean, we -- the intent of it was 10 t o test without any of these accessories. 11 So we hook up, you know, our water loop and 12 r u n it, and we have pressure drop measurements we can 13 d o to - - capacity corrections for that and the power 14 c o rrections. I don't think that those corrections were 15 i n tended to be used with accessories. We would have to 16 l o ok at how that interacts. 17 MR. FLY: Mark Fly. The water source heat 18 p u mp test standard is based on an ISO standard, and it 19 i s quite a bit different than many of our other 20 s t andards. 21 MR. JOHNSON: And we will factory install 22 s t rainers, valves, and pumps as options.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 152 1 MR. DOPPEL: Water source VRF systems are not 2 i n cluded with regular water source heat pumps, though. 3 MR. FLY: I don't believe they are. 4 MR. DOPPEL: No, they aren't. That's what 5 I ' m saying; they aren't. 6 MR. AMRANE: You want this procedure? You 7 u s ed the ISO or you -- 8 MR. DOPPEL: No. We used our own. 9 MR. AMRANE: You used your own. 10 MR. DOPPEL: I just want to make sure 11 e v eryone is aware. 12 MR. MARANTAN: Are you good with that, Laura? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 14 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Are there any others on 15 t h is list that we should discuss at this point? 16 MR. AMRANE: No. 17 MR. MARANTAN: That was Number 24. 18 MR. AMRANE: And 25? 19 MR. MARANTAN: 25? Corrosion-resistant water 20 c o il? 21 MR. JOHNSON: Well, again, that is -- I mean, 22 i t is --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 153 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Same issue, same -- 2 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. 26, electric heaters. 3 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I mean, that was -- 4 a g ain, it is -- when you get into a smaller cabinet 5 l i ke this and you are putting in an electric heater, 6 t h ere is a little, you know, static pressure increase 7 t o the fan. But it is a very low impact. 8 MR. MARANTAN: But we talked about the 9 e l ectric in the other one. We removed it. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. But I don't know that 11 t h is does -- 12 MR. AMRANE: There we have a product class. 13 A n d here we don't. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Here you don't have a product 15 c l ass. 16 MR. JOHNSON: This is all in one. 17 MR. SACHS: Yeah. 18 MR. AMRANE: Just water source. 19 MR. SACHS: So one application is going to be 20 l o oking for corrosion-resistant -- 21 MR. AMRANE: I don't know. 22 MR. SACHS: -- coil and a non-geothermal --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 154 1 MR. FLY: It will be a process. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Process stuff. Industrial. 3 Y e ah. 4 MR. SACHS: It almost seems like unique skew 5 a t 20 year? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, it's a unique skew. 7 MR. SACHS: Do we need to consider it? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: We are just trying to be 9 i n clusive. I mean, I don't -- 10 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. We are just trying to be 11 i n clusive of the things that we do, even if it's a one12 o f f -- you know, once a year. 13 MR. FLY: And remember that water source heat 14 p u mps are also rooftop package equipment. 15 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Which is also the size 17 o f the market. 18 MR. FLY: I mean, it is not a very big 19 m a rket, but, you know, that is where you get the gas 20 p a cks and that is where you can be -- 21 MR. SACHS: I was thinking of this as being 22 o n the water side rather than the aid side. I may have

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 155 1 m i sinterpreted it. 2 MR. FLY: Is that corrosion-resistant? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be on both. 4 MR. SACHS: I guess I am used to titanium or 5 c o oper nickel for water side. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: We have cooper nickel as a 7 p o ssibility. 8 MR. SACHS: Very well, ma'am. 9 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We were on the electric 10 h e aters. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Again, this is not a separate 12 p r oduct class code. So it is all one class. And they 13 d o give a little bit. They are not going to be 14 e n ergized, obviously, but they -- 15 MR. JOHNSON: No. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: -- cooling COPs for this, but - 17

- 18 MR. JOHNSON: And I am also trying to think 19 o f - - I'm not just looking at what Daikin does. I am 20 t r ying to look at what other manufacturers do and how 21 t h ey install the electric heaters in their equipment. 22 A n d it could impact their performance more so than us.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 156 1 I don't have that answer. 2 MR. EISNER: We have a comment from Wes 3 W o stal on the phone. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, good. Good. 5 MR. EISNER: We? 6 MR. WOSTAL: Hello. Can you hear me? 7 MR. EISNER: Yes. 8 MR. WOSTAL: I got stuck out of my office for 9 a little bit. And when I walked back in, I heard you 10 g u ys talking about water source heat pumps and coated 11 c o ils, and I saw "condenser water reheat" was on the 12 s c reen and I just wanted to see if there was any 13 q u estions that there were with -- regarding water 14 s o urce heat pumps. 15 And like I said, I missed about five minutes 16 o f the conversation, so I was a little bit lost. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: He's better at it than I am. 18 MR. JOHNSON: Hey, Wes. This is Tom Johnson 19 w i th Daikin McQuay. I don't know -- 20 MR. WOSTAL: Yes. 21 MR. JOHNSON: I don't know if you have in 22 f r ont of you this list of options that we put together,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 157 1 f a ctory-installed options. 2 MR. WOSTAL: I'm looking at it right now, 3 y e s, I do. 4 MR. JOHNSON: Oh, okay. I wasn't sure if you 5 h a d that or not. Okay. So, again, we were just trying 6 t o think of unique factory-installed options on water 7 s o urce heat pump covered in the range of this program 8 t h at could affect performance. So that is the reason 9 b e hind this list. 10 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 11 MR. JOHNSON: And so -- 12 MR. WOSTAL: One comment I do have, when I 13 f i rst sat into the meeting, the discussion was on the 14 d e finition of hot gas bypass, and I don't know if it's 15 t o o late to go back to that, but I would give my two 16 c e nts on that. I would look at the definition of hot 17 g a s bypass as not being necessarily the capacity 18 c o ntrol, but you are artificially loading the 19 e v aporator coil to keep it in a low -- in a very low 20 l o ad situation to keep it from freezing. 21 And typically what -- the control is driven 22 b y pressure and temperature, and you can set the valves

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 158 1 t o activate when the temperature usually gets down to 2 2 8 , 29 degrees evaporating temperature to start putting 3 h o t gas into the evaporator coil to keep it from 4 f r eezing. So my definition, or at least the way that 5 w e 've always applied it, would not be for capacity 6 c o ntrol, but to keep the evaporator coil from freezing. 7 MR. JOHNSON: Correct. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. That's another 9 a p plication on it. I agree, Wes. 10 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we added a couple of 11 w o rds to the end of this sentence. It says -- 12 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 13 MR. MARANTAN: -- "or to prevent evaporator 14 c o il from freezing." Is that all right? 15 MR. JOHNSON: That's all right. 16 MR. WOSTAL: Yes. 17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So back to water source 18

- - 19 MR. WOSTAL: Earlier, you guys were talking 20 a b out coated coils and there is coated air coils and 21 t h en there is corrosion-resistant water coils. I don't 22 k n ow if there is any clarification that is needed on

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 159 1 t h ose two or not. Like I said, I was out of the office 2 f o r a few minutes. And when I came in, you guys were 3 d i scussing this, so I don't know what had been 4 d i scussed prior to, while I was out. 5 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We were just getting to 6 c o rrosion-resistant water coil. 7 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 8 MR. MARANTAN: So we can start there. The 9 d e finition provided says that corrosion-resistant water 10 c o ils provide protection from corrosive items in the 11 w a ter circuit. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Harvey, you had a question 13 a b out why these would need corrosion protection? 14 MR. SACHS: My experience in building -- 15 MR. WOSTAL: The difficulty in our industry 16 i s going to be a copper nickel -- or cooper nickel coil 17 f o r the water coil that would be for corrosion18 r e sistant applications. And the vast majority of the 19 t i me it is used in an open loop situation or a water 20 w e ll situation where you don't know the quality of the 21 w a ter or, you know, the quality of the water could 22 c h ange over time.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 160 1 Now, in this situation, we are talking about 2 f o r a water source DOE only is interested in the water 3 l o op heat pump rating, which typically water loop heat 4 p u mp -- well, it is -- by definition, it would be 5 t y pically a closed loop, and you would very, very 6 s e ldom ever see anything other than a copper coil as a 7 w a ter coil. 8 MR. SACHS: So this can be deleted for the 9 b u ilding applications with closed loops, typically 10 t r eated water, that we are seeing in boiler cooling 11 t o wers related, non-geothermal, where geothermal 12 i n cludes open loop systems. 13 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, we would agree. We put 14 t h is list together before I had the understanding that 15 g e othermal is not covered in this, so -- 16 MR. SACHS: Okay. So it's your fault. 17 MR. JOHNSON: It is my fault. 18 MR. EISNER: Okay. Time to break for lunch. 19 F o rty-five minutes or an hour? What's the sense? Do 20 y o u guys need a full hour? 21 MR. SACHS: Two weeks. 22 MR. EISNER: 12:30.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 161 1 (Whereupon, at 11:33 a.m., the proceedings 2 in the foregoing matter recessed for lunch.) 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Is everybody ready to 4 s t art? 5 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. I guess we can pick up 6 w h ere we left off here? 7 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 8 MR. MARANTAN: We were on the other table 9 t h ere. Can we move to the other table? Okay. And I 10 t h ink we stopped at 25, corrosion-resistant water 11 c o ils. And so the next item would be electric heaters, 12 a n d we discussed that a little earlier. 13 MR. JOHNSON: We got to that. Yeah. 14 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Laura, are you okay 15 w i th electric heaters? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Um-hum. 17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. And we also touched 18 u p on desuperheaters? 19 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 20 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So what about grill 21 o p tions? 22 MR. JOHNSON: It's possible on a water source

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 162 1 h e at pump to have an open ceiling and a freestanding 2 w a ter source heat pump and then have grill options 3 a d ded to it. They are an option, although I'm not sure 4 w h ere it should have been mounted, if you would either. 5 MR. MARANTAN: So in terms of -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, for a price we'll mount 7 t h em. I would say that most of them get shipped away 8 b u t not -- 9 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: -- put on but -- 11 MR. JOHNSON: For the most part you would -- 12 i t would ship with it. 13 MR. MARANTAN: You okay with that? 14 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Next one is compressor 16

- - 17 MR. JOHNSON: But that -- back up. My guys 18 a r e back on the line listening. He reminded me it's 19 n o t just the ceiling units. There's council-type units 20 t h at could have special grill options. I -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 22 MR. JOHNSON: -- council meaning floor-

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 163 1 m o unted units over here. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Used in schools? 3 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, used in schools. You can 4 g e t into different grill options -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Remember being in school -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: I'm picturing that all -- 7 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. That -- there you go. 9 MR. JOHNSON: It's not plastic. Let's put it 10 t h at way. 11 MR. SACHS: If it's not noisy, it's not water 12 s o urce. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, if it's noisy it's a unit 15 v e ntilator but -- 16 MR. EISNER: We have a comment from Wes. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Go ahead, Wes. 18 MR. WOSTAL: I was just wanting you guys to 19 t u rn me on so I could comment during this part of it. 20 B u t I don't have anything to say, to talk about 21 r e garding the grill options. But I do agree there are 22 c o nsole options with different grills. I would agree

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 164 1 w i th that. I just wanted to be turned on for this 2 s e ction so I could just bust in when I wanted to. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So we talked about the -- 4 MR. WOSTAL: You guys sound like a pretty 5 j o vial group there, so -- 6 MR. JOHNSON: We have to be. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So we talked about some of the 8 g r ill options on the external units. What is the 9 i m pact of having a grill on the internal, inside? 10 MR. JOHNSON: What's the impact of a special 11 g r ill? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Um-hum. 13 MR. JOHNSON: According to this, it's zero to 14 t h ree percent on the unit efficiency. 15 MS. JAKOBS: So more pressure drop -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: More pressure drop -- 17 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, more -- yeah. That makes 18 s e nse, more pressure drop. 19 MR. WOSTAL: From the air side. 20 MR. SACHS: I guess -- this is Harvey. My 21 c o ncern would be that we would take as our basic model 22 o n e with a walk-through grill with zero pressure drop

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 165 1 a n d then expect to be waivered or exempted for grills 2 t h at have a fair amount of pressure drop. And some 3 o t her features, we've decided that the least efficient 4 w o uld be the unit that we would use as our -- in our 5 b a sic, basic model. And I wonder if there's some way 6 t o within this ISO test that we can get similar 7 a s surance that we're not loop-holing with default 8 g r ills that are very -- or that you can drop coffee 9 c u ps through. Am I being -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: The default is no grill at all. 11 MR. SACHS: No, no. It has to be some sort 12 o f -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: No? 14 MR. JOHNSON: There has to be a grill on it. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So this isn't just an 16 o p tion. I mean, this isn't just an add-on. Okay. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Just different -- 18 MR. WOSTAL: No. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: -- versions of it. 20 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again. I can speak 21 f o r ClimateMaster, but we have basically a standard 22 g r ill, and I'd have to check to confirm, but I don't

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 166 1 t h ink we have other options with the standard. 2 T y pically, it's done as a special where somebody asks 3 f o r something that they would, you know, want, you 4 k n ow, different for whatever reason. But I don't think 5 w e do those very often at all. It's very, very seldom 6 t h at I remember us doing special grills. 7 MR. JOHNSON: I would concur with that. 8 MR. SACHS: So what I would assume, Wes, is 9 t h at your standard grill is one that is inexpensive, 10 l o oks good and has the minimum impact on efficiency 11 f r om its pressure drop? 12 MR. WOSTAL: Yeah. I mean, it's an aluminum 13 e x truded grill or cast grill that, you know, we order 14 i t in, paint it the way we want it, and it's not 15 s o mething that -- it's just basically there to protect 16 t h e coil from somebody sticking their fingers into the 17 c o il and have -- do that and have minimum air -- impact 18 o n the airflow. 19 MR. SACHS: And it also -- 20 MR. WOSTAL: And also to direct the airflow 21 a s well to a certain degree. 22 MR. JOHNSON: Right. It directs the airflow.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 167 1 MR. SACHS: So alternative grills are special 2 o r ders, not very common. 3 MR. MARANTAN: Right. 4 MR. WOSTAL: Correct. 5 MR. SACHS: And rare. 6 MR. JOHNSON: Low volume. 7 MR. WOSTAL: Off the top of my head, I can't 8 r e member the last time we did a special grill. Now, 9 s p ecial paint, that happens all the time, but -- 10 MR. SACHS: So -- 11 MR. WOSTAL: -- on a console. 12 MR. SACHS: -- if we exempt you or is there 13 a n y business reason you want to start putting a lot of 14 h i gh- pressure-drop grills on? 15 MR. JOHNSON: No. Or more expensive ones, 16 n o . 17 MR. SACHS: Hardware stores got screening 18 w i th pretty good pressure drop and real low cost. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Architects don't like that. 20 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. Our customers won't 21 a c cept that. 22 MR. SACHS: Laura --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 168 1 MR. WOSTAL: This unit is an exposed unit. 2 I t sits out in -- typically in hallways or entryways, 3 a n d the customer's expecting an appliance-grade type 4 p r oduct here. 5 MR. SACHS: Prosecution rests. 6 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we're good with 7 g r ill options. And let's see, the next one is copper - 8

- sorry, compressor speed control. The definition is 9 r e ducing compressor speed at part load allows exact 10 m a tching of unit capacity to building load. Benefits 11 a r e better comfort control, no over cooling, reduced 12 c o mpressor cycling, better part-load compressor EER and 13 q u ieter operation. 14 MR. SACHS: Is this a special meaning that's 15 d i fferent from VF, from variable frequency? 16 MR. STEM: I think they're talking about the 17 d i fferent control algorithm driving the different -- is 18 t h at what you meant by that? 19 MR. HUNT: There's a retrofit kit. Marshall 20 H u nt, PGD. 21 MR. JOHNSON: This is a variable frequency 22 c o mpressor.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 169 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Variable speed compressor or 2 s t epped -- 3 MR. JOHNSON: Variable speed compressor or a 4 V F D compressor. 5 MR. SACHS: All right. If I -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Or multiple step with a -- 7 MR. JOHNSON: Oh, yeah. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: -- annual current magnet. 9 MR. SACHS: If I cut compressor speed, the -- 10 w e 've been told that motor curves drop off. On the 11 o t her hand, I got more heat exchange area effectively. 12 S o how does it all wash out? Seems to me that the 13 v a riable speed stuff is maintaining very good part-load 14 e f ficiency. 15 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. This is more of a part16 l o ad efficiency issue. So -- 17 MR. FLY: And on the DC motors, they don't 18 d r op off that much on the -- but there's all kinds of - 19

- like I said this stuff is all really up in the air 20 r i ght now. Lots of different things going on. 21 MR. SACHS: So the immediate issue is -- 22 MR. WOSTAL: There's not -- this is Wes

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 170 1 a g ain. There's not really even within HRI, and Karim, 2 y o u might jump in here. But you know, right now we 3 d o n't really have -- we haven't fully developed a 4 s t andard for this yet. You know, we're -- right now 5 w i thin HRI, we have the -- I guess we're set up for a 6 f u ll load and a part load or two capacity and variable 7 s p eed. You know, we had a meeting about a year -- the 8 e n gineering committee about a year to a year and a half 9 a g o, and I want to say we decided that we would allow 10 t h ree to four speeds, but that hasn't been finalized. 11 S o mebody said well, you know, this is still very up in 12 t h e air and that's correct. There's not very many 13 c o mpanies, maybe three or four, that even have products 14 t h at are variable speed at this point. 15 MR. AMRANE: May be just a test procedure -- 16 MR. MARANTAN: Test procedure issue. 17 MR. AMRANE: Issue. 18 MR. SACHS: Yeah. 19 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. 20 MR. WHITWELL: This is a part load. I mean, 21 i t should -- 22 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, maybe something regulated

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171 1 b y the DOE -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Yes. 3 MR. WHITWELL: It could really have an impact 4 a t full load. 5 MR. AMRANE: Right. 6 MR. SACHS: Coolers -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I think what they're 8 t r ying to say there in -- whoever wrote this is that 9 t h e effect at full load is if you optimize a design 10 a r ound part load you probably are not picking a 11 c o mpressor that is optimized around a full load. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: So it's you're always kind of 14 b a lancing the two. So you might have not the most 15 o p timized compressor for the full-load test, but you've 16 n o w optimized it around the part-load maps, so that's, 17 y o u know, that's what's up here. I -- 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. But -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: -- I don't know. I mean, I, 20 y o u know, I think that that's kind -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I mean, at least for 22 o u r products you still design it to hit the required

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 172 1 e f ficiency at full load. 2 MR. AMRANE: Efficiency, yeah. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 4 MR. WHITWELL: And then you take the 5 a d ditional benefit at part load. 6 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. 7 MR. WOSTAL: I would agree with that. 8 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. 9 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So for this one, it 10 l o oks like we'll need to address this in the test 11 p r ocedure. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Not for, not -- well, I don't 13 k n ow what is -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: That's an ISM test procedure. 15 MR. WHITWELL: -- what is the DOE coverage on 16 t h is? Is it full-load efficiency? 17 MR. AMRANE: I mean, DOE doesn't have that 18 t o day -- 19 MR. WHITWELL: So you don't need -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Currently, so current standard 21 f o r full load? 22 MS. TUCKER: So is this relevant for full

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 173 1 l o ad, I mean for the list? 2 MR. WHITWELL: I don't think it should be -- 3 I mean at full load, it should not -- 4 MR. AMRANE: Should not penalize -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: -- should not be impacted, 6 r i ght. You need to include the impact. You need to 7 d e sign with the variable speed compressor to hit the 8 w h atever the efficiency requirement is. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So if I'm understanding what 10 y o u're saying, this should not be an exclusion. We 11 s h ould be able to test these and -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: I don't believe it should be 13 a n exclusion. 14 MS. BARHYDT: -- they should be able to meet 15 t h e standard? 16 MR. WHITWELL: I don't believe it should be 17 a n exclusion. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 19 MR. WHITWELL: But I'm not in the water 20 s o urce heat pump business but -- 21 MR. SACHS: Robert, I've always been -- 22 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again, and I don't

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 174 1 k n ow who that was, but I would agree with that that 2 t h is is not -- should not be excluded. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm one of the manufacturers 4 w i th the variable speed and water source, and I don't 5 t h ink it should be exempted. 6 MR. WOSTAL: You don't think it should be 7 e x empted? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: No. I don't think it should be 9 e x empted. 10 MR. JOHNSON: This -- I'm not sure this was 11 i n tended -- 12 MR. WOSTAL: I agree. I agree with that. 13 MR. JOHNSON: And I'm not sure this was 14 i n tended just for water source. I think he purposely 15 w r ote this. 16 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Um-hum. 17 MR. JOHNSON: He's a packaged unitary guy so 18

- - 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 20 MR. MARANTAN: Sounds like it was for all of 21 t h e -- 22 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. It's for all of them so

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 175 1

- - 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 3 MR. JOHNSON: -- okay. 4 MR. MARANTAN: And just to clarify what we're 5 t r ying to do in the table, we're going to keep it up 6 t h ere because we're interested in the definition. 7 MR. JOHNSON: Right. 8 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Moving on, the next 9 f i ve look like they repeat -- 10 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. These got repeated. 11 T h ese are -- 12 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah. 13 MR. JOHNSON: We're done with the list as far 14 a s -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, wonderful. 16 MR. JOHNSON: -- unless you want -- somebody 17 h a s to -- 18 MR. MARANTAN: We got the last 5 from 30 to 19 3 4 . 20 MR. AMRANE: But there's one more thing. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 22 MR. AMRANE: On single-packaged vertical

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 176 1 u n its, the definition -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Definition. 3 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah. 4 MR. AMRANE: And I think the consensus from 5 t h e manufacturers is to try to use definition similar 6 t o what was developed for the other packaged product. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 8 MR. AMRANE: And maybe adjust a little bit 9 t h e wording with respect to cooling capacity. So if 10 y o u can bring that definition. That's the original 11 d e finition? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So you want to copy the 13

- - 14 MR. AMRANE: To there. So we don't want 15 t h at. We want the same definition as the, as the -- 16 t h at we developed for the -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: PTACs? 18 MR. AMRANE: Not PTACs, the large unitary -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 20 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again. Have we 21 a l ready gone over the definition of a basic model for 22 w a ter source heat pump?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 177 1 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 2 MR. AMRANE: I think we're done with water 3 s o urce heat pump. 4 MR. WOSTAL: That must have been when I was 5 o u t. If we could, could we go back to that? I think I 6 w a s out of the office when that was discussed. Sorry. 7 MS. BARHYDT: You can see the screen? 8 MR. MARANTAN: It's on the screen now. 9 MR. WOSTAL: Was there any -- were there any 10 c o mments or issues with that? 11 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. You see the finished 12 p r oduct. There was a bit of discussion, yeah. 13 MR. SACHS: There was a lot of violent 14 a g reement. 15 MR. WOSTAL: Hey, pops, now wait a minute. 16 W e 're all part of the industry, but come on. 17 MR. SACHS: Van would be proud of you. 18 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. So you just put up at the 19 t o p what was taken out? 20 MS. TUCKER: That was just the heading, the 21 t i tle there, the heading we had put on the basic model 22 d e finition.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 178 1 MS. BARHYDT: The basic model definition. 2 MR. WOSTAL: I can't understand or hear. 3 MS. BARHYDT: The basic model definition is 4 i n the box. It's the white, the white area of the 5 s l ide. The basic model means that's the definition. 6 C o rey just added a heading up at the top to explain 7 t h at this was the basic model definition for water 8 s o urce heat pumps. 9 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. So what's up at the top 10 w h ere it says, "Water source heat pumps capable of 11 c o oling only" -- 12 MR. STANONIK: It's a title. 13 MR. WOSTAL: -- "heating only and cooling and 14 h e ating"? 15 MR. STANONIK: It's a title. 16 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Okay. So the definition 17 h e re, was there any -- I guess everybody was okay with 18 t h at? 19 MS. BARHYDT: I think there were a few tweaks 20 f r om what we started with, but this is what everybody 21 s e emed to be okay with. 22 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Because I remember the --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 179 1 K a rim had sent me the original definition that this 2 g r oup had put together, and I made some changes, or I 3 s u bmitted some changes as, you know, my feelings. And 4 i t looks like, it looks like most everything that I 5 s u bmitted is here so I just -- if that's -- if 6 e v erybody's in agreement I'm good with that. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 8 MR. WOSTAL: All right. One other thing I 9 w a nted to add was there was an option that I had added, 10 a n d that was condenser water reheat. I don't know if 11 y o u guys need a definition for that or -- 12 MR. MARANTAN: Let's do, yeah. 13 MR. JOHNSON: Never got it. 14 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Condenser water reheat is 15 a -- it's basically a form of hot gas reheat, except 16 i n stead of, instead of using refrigerant to reheat the 17 a i r in cooling mode, we use condenser water that is 18 h e ated in our system, and we pump that water through 19 t h e coil that sits downstream of the, of the evaporator 20 c o il just like a reheat coil would. So essentially, we 21 w e re using hot water off of the condenser in place of 22 h o t gas off of the compressor.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180 1 I guess what I could do is I could put 2 t o gether a more well thought out definition and send 3 t h at to Karim for the next meeting. 4 MS. BARHYDT: That's fine. 5 MR. WOSTAL: If you guys would like that. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, please. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: That would be good. 8 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 9 MR. WHITWELL: And one other question. This 10 i s Bob Whitwell from Carrier. The economizers here 11 w i th the water source, those would be water economizers 12 a s opposed to air economizer? 13 MR. WOSTAL: Typically, yes. The ones that I 14 a m familiar with are water economizers where when the 15 w a ter that enters -- that's entering the water coil is 16

- - reaches a temperature, you know, say 50 to 60 17 d e grees, you turn off the compressor, and you just pump 18 w a ter through the coil and run the fan. 19 MR. FLY: But that coil doesn't pose a 20 p r essure drop? 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. It's -- the coil would 22 b e in series with the evaporator coil. So there's a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 181 1 p r essure drop on the indoor air side. 2 MR. WOSTAL: Yes. There would be a pressure 3 d r op on the indoor air side, but you also get, you 4 k n ow, the benefit of not running the compressor. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Correct. 6 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Right. I only mention it 8 b e cause it's the same as what we talked about on the 9 a i r economizer, but the definition would be different. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Different. 11 MR. AMRANE: Different. Yeah. 12 MR. WHITWELL: But I believe it should be 13 t r eated the same way. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Are there any other items on 15 t h e list that need clarification for water source? 16 MR. JOHNSON: None we can think of right now. 17 MR. WOSTAL: Let's change that definition on 18 c o ndenser water -- well, I'll give you guys a new 19 d e finition. I was going to say instead of a form of 20 h o t gas, I would call it an alternative to hot gas 21 m a ybe. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Ready to move on to the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 182 1

- - 2 MR. AMRANE: SPV? 3 MS. BARHYDT: -- SPV? 4 MR. AMRANE: Um-hum. That's the original -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: Copy the -- 6 MS. TUCKER: So you want the -- 7 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Just replace this with 8 t h e, with the other one. 9 MS. TUCKER: Do you want the entire list of - 10

- 11 MR. AMRANE: The entire list. 12 MS. TUCKER: Okay. 13 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. So it's going to be 14 v e ry similar. 15 MS. TUCKER: Going to take that whole slide. 16 MR. WOSTAL: I would have Sean but Sean might 17 n o t be there. 18 MR. AMRANE: The only thing that might be a 19 l i ttle bit different here is with respect to the common 20 n o minal cooling capacity. I think those manufacturers 21 t y pically the way they would like to define the basic 22 m o del would be the capacity range. And usually in our

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 183 1 p r ogram, we use 1500 BTUs. That's what we use in our 2 p r ogram. That's what they would like to add to this 3 d e finition. 4 MS. TUCKER: So other than common nominal, 5 w h at, the common -- 6 MR. AMRANE: This has to be common, the -- 7 MS. TUCKER: -- capacity; right? 8 MR. AMRANE: -- capacity range of, you know, 9 s o we can 1500 BTUs if you want to be specific or you 10 w a nt to leave it open. 11 MR. FLY: Karim, are these always water 12 c o oled? 13 MR. AMRANE: They are not water cooled. 14 MR. FLY: They're not water -- 15 MR. AMRANE: I mean, they are mostly air 16 c o oled. Yeah. It's air to air, all of these BTUs, I 17 m e an, they're vertical. 18 MS. BARHYDT: I think that's what you mean. 19 MR. AMRANE: It's within each other, I mean 20 l i ke you would define basic model with the 1500 -- 21 MR. EISNER: Okay. And these are generally 22 t h rough --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 184 1 MR. MARANTAN: PTACs. 2 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. PTACs, we had similar 3 l a nguage. We had -- 4 MR. MARANTAN: Can we just borrow the 5 l a nguage there? 6 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, if you can do that, you 7 c a n, yes, within 300 BTUs, yeah. 8 MR. AMRANE: That's it. That's the only 9 c h ange. As far as the options, I mean they feel that 10 t h ey can have the same kind of options in their 11 p r oducts. So -- 12 MR. DOPPEL: Well, the third one down is 13 n o ne. 14 MR. AMRANE: No. They just want you to go -- 15 MR. SACHS: I don't understand the 16 a p plication of condenser fan motor options for ducting 17 o n -- 18 MR. AMRANE: They reviewed the list. 19 MR. DOPPEL: They did? 20 MR. AMRANE: They reviewed the list, and they 21 a g ree with the list. That's why -- 22 MR. DOPPEL: Okay.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 185 1 MR. AMRANE: -- they would like to keep the 2 l i st. 3 MR. SACHS: For the vertical units, I just 4 w o uld like an example of the application where I've got 5 d u cting option to a condenser, condenser pane. 6 MR. WHITWELL: No. I mean, we -- I don't 7 c o nsider -- 8 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. That will not apply. 9 MR. WHITWELL: -- ours really this type of 10 u n it. 11 MR. SACHS: So that's a no? Condenser pane - 12

- 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, through the wall to -- 17 MR. AMRANE: I mean fine. I mean, I'm not 18 o b jecting at this point in time. But I'll have to get 19 t h ose folks a bit more engaged, maybe at the next 20 m e eting or so. I mean, we can remove it from that. 21 W e 'll put a question mark or whatever so that we know - 22

-

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 186 1 MR. SACHS: Sure. Well, let me try a 2 d i fferent approach. 3 MR. AMRANE: Right. 4 MR. SACHS: My sense of these is that the 5 b a rred units -- 6 MR. AMRANE: That's correct. 7 MR. SACHS: -- are bolted on a classroom -- 8 MR. AMRANE: That is true. That's what they 9 a r e. I mean, yeah, yeah. 10 MR. SACHS: All right. So -- 11 MR. DOPPEL: So there shouldn't be any 12 d u cting? 13 MR. SACHS: There shouldn't be any ducting. 14 T h ere shouldn't be any high-static indoor blowers 15 b e cause these typically take return air in at the 16 b o ttom and blow it out the top. 17 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 18 MR. SACHS: So we ought to be able to 19 e l iminate that. 20 MR. DOPPEL: That's why I'm saying 21 e c onomizer, right? It's -- 22 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 187 1 MR. DOPPEL: -- I don't -- 2 MR. SACHS: I don't know where I'd put it. 3 4 All right. What about barometric relief 5 p o wered return air. That doesn't sound like -- 6 MR. DOPPEL: Well, if they have -- if Bart 7 h a s economizer then they could have that. 8 MR. SACHS: Okay. 9 MR. DOPPEL: Because you got air coming in. 10 Y o u got to have something going out. 11 MR. SACHS: Sound traps. 12 MR. AMRANE: Oh, they do, I believe. I don't 13 k n ow. 14 MR. SACHS: Where will you put the sound trap 15 i n the box? 16 MR. AMRANE: But they are used in school 17 a p plication quite a bit, too, so that's subject to the 18 s a me kind of -- 19 MR. SACHS: Right. And they have to be 20 d e signed for that integrally to get it all in the box. 21 MR. DOPPEL: The sound trap would be the on 22 a n d off switch.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 188 1 MR. SACHS: Wait a minute. There's that 2 v e ntilation requirement. 3 MR. FLY: And the off position is real 4 e f ficient. 5 MR. SACHS: No, it is not. 6 MR. FLY: Maybe a zero efficient. 7 MR. SACHS: So I would -- I don't think we 8 h a ve to go through these one at a time now. But I 9 t h ink it's -- 10 MR. AMRANE: I mean, we can put the question 11 m a rk, and then revisit this, you know, at the next 12 m e eting if you want to. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Have them look at -- 14 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Have them go and make 15 s u re that we can justify or what else you have, Harvey? 16 L e t's put them -- let's make sure that we -- 17 MR. SACHS: Well, I think the question is for 18 t h e entire list whether these are in the market, or 19 p e ople are thinking about them, so we have it 20 i n tegration friendly. It's always seemed to me that 21 l o oking at these things that the hail guards were sort 22 o f inherent in them because they're exterior cabinets

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 189 1 a n d people can reach for the baseball bat. So I ask 2 t h ink asking them which ones need to be left to 3 p r otective innovation capability (inaudible). 4 MR. AMRANE: All right. Well, we'll get 5 b a ck, then. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. I'm just guessing. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 8 MR. MARANTAN: Other basic model definitions? 9 MR. AMRANE: That's it. That's it. 10 MR. MARANTAN: That's it? 11 MS. TUCKER: They're going to correct -- 12 MR. AMRANE: Well, now there are a few that 13 y o u see to be determined. 14 MS. TUCKER: Yeah. Like cracks. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So -- 16 MR. AMRANE: Like -- yeah. So those -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: -- we don't have proposals for 18 t h ose. 19 MR. AMRANE: Now I'm working with the 20 c o mputer Datacom folks to double up on; okay? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 22 MR. AMRANE: Because we started product

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 190 1 s e ction with AHRI, so hopefully by their next meeting - 2

- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 4 MR. AMRANE: -- I'll get you a definition for 5 t h at. Huh? 6 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah. Commercial pharmacies -- 7 MR. AMRANE: Oh, yes. 8 MS. TUCKER: Would either of you be 9 i n terested in commercial furnaces? 10 MR. SACHS: Commercial furnaces are easy. 11 MS. JAKOBS: Commercial furnaces are easy. 12 MR. STANONIK: Well, yeah. Yeah. If you 13 j u st go back into commercial furnaces, yeah. 14 MR. SACHS: Anything Frank wants. 15 MS. JAKOBS: Put gas in, burn it. 16 MR. STANONIK: It was like the first slide, I 17 t h ink. 18 MS. JAKOBS: Put gas in, burn it, get some 19 h e at. 20 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. There it is. 21 Just a couple things. First one is at the 22 v e ry end it says "to affect energy consumption." I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 191 1 t h ink it should be "energy efficiency." That's 2 c o nsistent with what we've done for the water coolers 3 a n d boilers. And in the case for commercial furnace, 4 j u st to give you an example, at least by DOE 5 r e gulations you can still put a pilot on your 6 c o mmercial furnace. 7 MS. JAKOBS: Not in Canada. 8 MR. STANONIK: We're not in Canada. We're in 9 t h e United States. 10 MR. AMRANE: We're in the U.S. 11 MR. STANONIK: And that wouldn't affect 12 t h ermal efficiency at all. You don't want to -- you 13 w o uld -- that should be the same basic models. So 14 a n yhow, so the efficiency. And then the question comes 15 u p whether you -- whether we really need to say that 16 h a ve identical readings with thermal efficiency or not. 17 Y o u can just -- looking at some of the other 18 d e finitions, I mean, I don't -- I believe that you 19 d o n't need to say that. But you know, that's -- 20 MS. JAKOBS: You didn't want to say ratings, 21 d i d you? 22 MR. AMRANE: No.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 192 1 MR. STANONIK: Well, somebody had suggested 2 i t but you would have been -- could say they have the 3 s a me or essentially the same input ratings in terms of 4 d e fining a basic model. I mean -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: But I mean, if you want to take 6 i t out, we can take it out. 7 MR. STANONIK: Well, I kind of defer it a 8 l i ttle bit to the people who actually make this stuff. 9 I f we said -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: They are grouped by the same, I 11 m e an they are grouped by the same input; right? 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 13 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. So we could say that 14 h a ve essentially identical input ratings. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Frank, I like the 16 d e finition that you emailed around as a proposal. 17 MR. STANONIK: Okay. Well, that's what I was 18 w o rking off of. So to say that has essentially 19 i d entical input ratings and the same primary resource, 20 b l ah, blah, blah. The rest stays the same. 21 MR. SACHS: All right, this is going to fall 22 o n deaf ears, but I'm going to say it anyhow.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 193 1 C u stomers don't care near as much about input ratings 2 a s output ratings. And you guys have been backwards 3 f o r decades. And I would be a whole lot happier to see 4 u s beginning the transition by using the term output 5 r a tings. 6 MR. STANONIK: The reason these are 7 e s sentially identical -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: Then we've got to retrain 9 e v erybody. 10 MR. STANONIK: -- is that within the gas 11 b u siness, you could have a model that's rated on LP and 12 n a tural. They are the same model. Your LP might have 13 a little different input than that. And most of the 14 t e st procedures allow, I don't know about commercials 15 f u rnaces, but they allow variance up to ten percent. 16 MR. SACHS: As I said, it would fall on deaf 17 e a rs, but -- 18 MR. STANONIK: I didn't want you to be wrong. 19 MR. SACHS: That's the first time you've ever 20 s a id that. 21 MR. STANONIK: It's just to capture the 22 L P /natural gas situation.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 194 1 MS. JAKOBS: Essentially identical. 2 MR. STANONIK: Right. Input ratings. And 3 t h en you can delete "for thermal efficiency." 4 MS. JAKOBS: Is that the same as having the 5 s a me nominal input rating? 6 MR. STANONIK: We could probably do that, 7 t o o, but -- 8 MS. JAKOBS: "Essentially identical," that's 9 k i nd of like -- 10 MR. SACHS: A little bit pregnant. 11 MS. TUCKER: I mean, you're pulling your 12 i n put, right, so you'd have to have a nominal input for 13 t h e group. 14 MR. STANONIK: Right. Okay. 15 MS. TUCKER: We can say the same nominal; 16 w o uld that be better? 17 MS. JAKOBS: Well, "identical" may mean 18 s o mething specific. And "essentially" means it's not 19 s p ecific, so -- 20 MR. STANONIK: Well, so if you want to say 21 " t hat have the same nominal input ratings," that's 22 c e rtainly less oxymoron, I guess.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 195 1 MR. AMRANE: You have to think of the air 2 c o nditioning unit. Yes, I'm sorry; I don't know what's 3 g o ing on with this thermostat. It resets to high 4 t e mperature every time. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: The static's too high. 6 MR. AMRANE: Who made this equipment, anyhow? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, does that take care of 8 i t ? 9 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else? 11 MR. STANONIK: No, that's good. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 13 MS. JAKOBS: Where is VRF? Where'd he go? 14 MR. DOPPEL: Grand entrance. So if you go 15 b a ck to the definition for the large commercial package 16 a i r conditioning systems. 17 MS. TUCKER: Yeah, this one? 18 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. So that should also 19 i n clude large commercial split systems. 20 MS. TUCKER: Yes. So, large? 21 MR. AMRANE: Also they're cold by the 22 r e gulation.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 196 1 MR. DOPPEL: Right. So VRF has always been 2 i n cluded under that. 3 MS. TUCKER: Okay. 4 MR. DOPPEL: And, you know, I don't think 5 t h ere's anything additional. Because we have the test 6 c o mbination definition for VRF. So I think that -- 7 MS. TUCKER: Okay. So -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: But, Paul, you're saying that 9 t h at's for 65,000 to 760 VRF. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Right. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 12 MS. TUCKER: Just no small. 13 MR. DOPPEL: Huh? 14 MS. TUCKER: Just no small. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Just no small. 16 MR. DOPPEL: Right, no small. 17 MR. AMRANE: It's just 65 and above. 18 MR. DOPPEL: 65 and above. 19 MR. FLY: In a below 65 three-phase, it's 20 s t ill commercial to DOE's definition. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, he'd have a different 22 d e finition for less than 65.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 197 1 MR. FLY: It'll be all right. 2 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 3 MR. WHITWELL: We don't have to rate for 4 e v ery combination. So maybe we're better off with the 5 A S HRAE definition. 6 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, why don't we -- if you 7 j u st copied that, let's go with the different page. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: So now we've got to take it 9 o u t. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Because that will get confusing 11 w i th the less than 65. 12 MS. TUCKER: So we're still talking about the 13 6 5 , just greater than 65; right? 14 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. And then there's another 15 c h ange that we need to make with coils. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe we just explain the 17 i s sue and I think somehow we've got to work in the 18 ( i naudible) combination here; right. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Combination? 20 MR. DOPPEL: Well, we've got to look at the 21 d e finition of VON. 22 MR. WHITWELL: I think it's the same as -- I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 198 1 t h ink it's the same. 2 MR. DOPPEL: No, as far as what is considered 3 b a sic model test. 4 MR. WHITWELL: The issue we're struggling 5 w i th here is all the various indoor unit types, right. 6 S o the comparable evaporator coil is, you know, if you 7 l o ok at the test procedure describes -- 8 MR. DOPPEL: We use different language. 9 MR. WHITWELL: -- what the indoor units 10 s h ould be for how to identify the indoor units for the 11 t e sting. 12 MR. DOPPEL: I don't have the OM handy. 13 MR. WHITWELL: I can get it. 14 MS. BARHYDT: It's nice with the door open. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Where'd he go? 16 MS. BARHYDT: So other than the BRF basic 17 m o del definition, are there any other basic model 18 d e finitions outstanding? 19 MR. AMRANE: If I may ask, is Wes around on 20 t h e phone? You want to speak up about SPVUs? Wes? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Is Wes in a meeting? 22 MR. AMRANE: He's on mute?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 199 1 MS. BARHYDT: On mute. 2 MR. AMRANE: On mute, okay. I don't know; I 3 k n ow he wanted to make a comment. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Oh, yeah, those accessories. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Before you look at the 6 a c cessories -- 7 MR. WOSTAL: Good morning. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, almost none of those 9 a c cessories apply. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Almost or none? 11 MR. DOPPEL: None. 12 MS. JAKOBS: Not even a UV lamp? 13 MR. DOPPEL: UV lamp -- well, we don't ship 14 t h em. Are there any units? None that I can see. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Coated coils, potentially? 17 MR. DOPPEL: Coated coils would be the only - 18

- 19 MR. WHITWELL: These are very simple 20 p r oducts; right, Paul? 21 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: These here are for the test

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 200 1 s i mple setup. 2 MR. STEM: Absolutely. Four days. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Most expensive per ton; right? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 5 MR. STEM: Huh? 6 MR. WHITWELL: Most expensive per ton. 7 MR. STEM: If you take out the line table in 8 t h ere, we'll be in good shape. 9 MR. DOPPEL: Okay, what we have is same or 10 c o mparable compressors and same cooling capacity. 11 MR. WHITWELL: We can take gas out of the -- 12 w e can take out maybe same primary energy source. 13 MR. DOPPEL: You can take the coils out. 14 MS. TUCKER: Okay. What about an air 15 r e moval? 16 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 17 MS. TUCKER: Okay. And the energy source? 18 MR. WHITWELL: We don't have gas; I mean, 19 t h ere would be no gas. 20 MR. STEM: No, you'd leave it in. You need 21 t o leave gas in. 22 MR. WHITWELL: You need to leave gas in?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 201 1 MR. AMRANE: Just it doesn't hurt. 2 MS. TUCKER: It exists in the world. 3 MR. WHITWELL: All right. Okay, for the 4 f u ture. 5 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, you never know. 6 MR. DOPPEL: And that last sentence you can 7 a l most leave out. 8 MS. TUCKER: Yeah. No, I'm going to 9 i n corporate that as well. I just wanted you to review 10 p a rt of it. Throw coated coils in up there. 11 MR. DOPPEL: Well, I'd guess you'd leave it 12 t h ere, because we do have coated coils. 13 MS. TUCKER: Yeah, I'll just make a sentence 14 i n stead of a list. 15 MR. DOPPEL: Even though it's very small. 16 A n d for old eyes, you can hardly read the coated coils. 17 Y e ah, so leave that in there. 18 MR. SACHS: Father, should I offer you my 19 s e at? 20 MR. DOPPEL: Thank you. 21 MR. WHITWELL: And, Paul, I think we've got 22 t o get in here the ducted versus non-ducted.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 202 1 MR. DOPPEL: That's covered in the basic, in 2 t h e tested combination. 3 MR. WHITWELL: So then what would you 4 c e rtify? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, you certify what? 6 MR. DOPPEL: And just maybe add a sentence 7 b e fore a basic model does not include, just a sentence 8 t h at says, you know, that basic models are also 9 d e termined according to the tested combination in 10 q u otes. Definition. Just the combination, end quote, 11 d e finition. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. Then how does somebody 13 w h o's not in AHRI remember that? 14 MR. DOPPEL: Oh, that's a DOE. Test 15 c o mbination is a DOE. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: It is? 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, because you've got 20 d u cted; for a given output, you've got to rate it 21 d u cted. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, yeah, that's right. Those

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 203 1 c a bles do. Yeah, that's right. I forgot about that. 2 All good? 3 MR. DOPPEL: Well, one other, because water 4 s o urce is also included. After nominal cooling 5 c a pacity add the same heat rejection medium, air or 6 w a ter. So you can't have -- a basic model couldn't be 7 a water sourcing pump and a air to air. 8 MS. BARHYDT: You can't span the two. 9 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. We actually tried to 10 i n clude less than 65,000 in with that. But DOE didn't 11 p i ck them up. So there are what are considered VRF 12 s y stems, less than 65,000, but are single phase, and 13 t h erefore covered by 210/240. They are orphans. They 14 n e ed -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: They're not orphans; they're 16 c o vered under -- 17 MS. JAKOBS: They're covered. 18 MS. BARHYDT: They're in a foster home. 19 MR. DOPPEL: Well, but they're orphans from 20 t h e VRF. They're in a foster home. They're in a 21 f o ster home, thank you. 22 MR. WHITWELL: They're in that same category.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 204 1 MS. JAKOBS: They're pining to come home. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so are there any other 3 b a sic model definitions that we haven't at least 4 s t arted on? 5 MR. AMRANE: As I said, for the data I'll 6 b r ing something for the next meeting. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Right, okay. 8 MS. DANE: We were going to go back to 9 c o mmercial refrigeration. 10 MS. BARHYDT: We can do that. 11 MS. DANE: I think there was some concern -- 12 I know the gentleman from Southland Cabinets had some 13 q u estions about this. And I've been asked to bring up 14 s o me points of clarification regarding the addition of 15 d e fining primary energy source between plug and 16 c o nnection point. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Primary energy source is going 18 t o be electrical gas. I mean, it's the type of energy. 19 I t 's not -- 20 MR. SHEBIK: I don't think you need to break 21 i n to how you get the energy to the case. I saw your 22 e m ail.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 205 1 MS. DANE: I'm addressing an email I got. 2 MS. BARHYDT: What was the question, were 3 t h ey wondering if they were forced to separate this? 4 MS. DANE: Joe Sanders is on the line, maybe 5 h e can speak to his -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: Can you unmute Joe Sanders? 7 H e 's not on the line. 8 MS. DANE: Oh, he's not on the call. Oh, 9 w o w. Okay. He had gone through yesterday when the per 10 t o tal display area refrigerated volume was added and 11 p o inted out where it already appeared in the CFR. And 12 w e had written back that before we had a much more what 13 w e felt was a broader. 14 MS. BARHYDT: So that we said we were going 15 t o have to come back and revisit. 16 MS. DANE: Yes. 17 MS. BARHYDT: And that actually is not going 18 t o be able to be included in a basic model. 19 MS. DANE: Okay. And that is because? 20 MS. BARHYDT: It's because a basic model, the 21 c o ncept of a basic model is this is a representation 22 t h at's based on testing. I mean, you can an AEDM to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 206 1 c o me up with the numbers for other basic models, but 2 t h e fundamental number has to come from testing. And 3 t h e test procedure is not designed in a way that would 4 a l low you to span the different sizes of cases the way 5 i t was discussed yesterday. And so the only way to do 6 t h at is through an AEDM. And you can't have -- 7 c o nceptually the number should be coming out of the 8 t e st procedure for the basic model. 9 MS. DANE: So the description somewhere the 10 c r oss between yesterday's and today's version would 11 p r obably work fine with us. I know that I think, to 12 a d dress his point, the question on the ore hydraulics 13 w a s just a copy, an error of copying over and taking 14 e v erything else out. So if we're not going to put total 15 d i splay area, which I understand is limiting to one 16 t y pe of cabinet. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 18 MS. DANE: I'm okay with that. Were we also 19 g o ing to talk about basic model features? 20 MR. SACHS: Before we move off that, am I 21 c o rrect in interpreting this as saying that the 22 i d entical box with and without a cover, whether it's a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 207 1 n i ght cover or an operable one, would not be allowed to 2 b e part of the same basic model? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Under the current framework, 4 n o . And I don't know enough about the test procedure to 5 k n ow the answer as to whether the test procedure has an 6 i m pact on that. I'm guessing it does. 7 MR. AMRANE: It does. 8 MR. HON: There is a change coming -- 9 MR. AMRANE: There is a change coming. 10 MR. SACHS: When does it come out, Charlie? 11 MR. HON: The change is a DOE change. 12 MR. AMRANE: Right. 13 MS. BARHYDT: We have an open rulemaking on 14 t h is subject. 15 MR. HON: There's been a rulemaking on that 16 a n d it changes in 2015. Which allow the night curtain 17 t o be closed for six hours. 18 MR. AMRANE: Right. That will impact energy 19 c o nsumption. 20 MR. SACHS: Well, it impacts the energy 21 c o nsumption. But the question is whether the open and 22 t h e night curtain models that were otherwise identical

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 208 1 c o uld be part of the same basic model. 2 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, right now, you do not test 3 f o r the night curtain right now. 4 MR. SACHS: Because they would not have the 5 s a me functional characteristics that affect energy 6 c o nsumption. One has a night cover and the other does 7 n o t. 8 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, it's just like a sensor, a 9 l i ght sensor running. There's no test procedure. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, we would allow them to 11 g r oup those, as long as they rate it as the less 12 e f ficient of the two. And I don't know why somebody 13 w i th a night curtain would want to not claim that 14 e f ficiency. But we would allow them to group them. 15 MR. SACHS: Hey, if they're happy, I'm happy. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 17 MR. SACHS: On this. 18 MS. DANE: You know, some of the other 19 t e chnology, not that we would have all the things that 20 H V AC would have, but if some of the like condensation 21 p a n heater and things like that were an optional, would 22 w e be able to apply some of the same exemptions they

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 209 1 h a ve to our product line? 2 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure. If you can come 3 u p with a list like they did, I think that would be 4 h e lpful. So we have a better idea of what you were 5 t h inking off. Because I know that in the CRE test 6 p r ocedure we tried to address some of those variables. 7 A n d so to the extent that they are captured by the test 8 p r ocedure, they would not be able to be grouped, or 9 r a ther excluded. Because the test procedure is 10 d e signed to capture that information. 11 MR. SHEBIK: I'm sorry; I need to cut out 12 p r etty quick here. But going back to what Harvey was 13 s a ying, if you choose to sell a case with a night 14 c u rtain on it, or a dimming switch for your lights, a 15 m o tion sensor or something, since there's no current 16 A S HRAE test method for that is there, Charlie? 17 MR. HON: ASHRAE has a change in their test 18 m e thod coming in the next revision, which should be out 19 b e fore the end of the year. Which will allow up to 20 e i ght-hour close. But the problem is, is that under 21 i n terpretation, which I received from the DOE, if you 22 h a ve a night curtain in place you cannot turn the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 210 1 l i ghts off, unless by chance there's a built in 2 i n tegrated switch. 3 MR. SHEBIK: It can't be a manual switch? 4 MR. HON: So when you close the night curtain 5 i t automatically turns the lights off. That's always a 6 d e batable point, which is rather fictitious. If you're 7 g o ing to close a night curtain, it's just while you're 8 t h ere you might as well flip the switch. But that's 9 n o t what we've been told we've been allowed to do. So 10 w e 're getting no exemptions it sounds like. 11 MR. BAUMAN: If we don't ask for them. 12 MR. HON: Well -- 13 MR. BAUMAN: I mean, you're saying we could 14 c o me up with a list like they did for -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: You could give us a list and we 16 c a n take a look at it. 17 MR. HON: Yeah, unfortunately, I've heard 18 m o st of the answers already. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 20 MR. SHEBIK: So if we chose to use those 21 o p tions, could you claim the energy efficiency? 22 MS. BARHYDT: So to the extent that the test

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 211 1 p r ocedure allows you to claim the efficiency, and you 2 h a ve a method to actually test it to know what that 3 n u mber is. It's probably better to talk about this in 4 t e rms of specific provisions. But generally speaking, 5 i f you could test two versions and the test procedure 6 w i ll capture the difference between the two versions, 7 y o u could group them together and rate them at the more 8 c o nsumptive, or you could separate them and you could 9 c l aim them as two different basic models with the 10 h i gher efficiency. 11 MR. SHEBIK: And I don't know if the 12 g e ntleman, the people from Zero Zone are on the phone, 13 B r uce, if he's on the phone still, but he had some 14 c o ncerns at looking at using equipment classifications 15 s t ill as your basic models. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So the department typically has 17 t a ken the position that there is no way to make a basic 18 m o del span across multiple equipment classes. Because 19 t h e way the equipment classes are set are based on the 20 n o tion that those designs are so fundamentally 21 d i fferent that they actually require different design, 22 t h at the standards are actually set differently. And

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 212 1 s o there's no way to say that they're essentially 2 i d entical, electable, physical, and functional 3 c h aracteristics, when the Department has, basically as 4 a matter of law, determined that this are physically 5 f u nctionally different in such a way that actually 6 w a rrants a different standard. 7 MR. SHEBIK: But I'm saying -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: So you can't make a basic model 9 s p an the classes. 10 MR. SHEBIK: No; I'm saying can each 11 e q uipment class be a basic model group? 12 MS. BARHYDT: That would depend on what they 13 o f fer within that. 14 MR. SHEBIK: So depending on the manufacturer 15 a n d what they're offering is they could do that. 16 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, there's no prohibition 17 o n it. 18 MR. BAUMAN: But they -- this is Jeff from 19 N a tional -- but they'd all have to have the same energy 20 c o nsumption. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 22 MR. BAUMAN: The basic model has to have the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 213 1 s a me energy consumption. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Take your absolute worst case 3 s c enario for that. 4 MR. SHEBIK: So what you distribute to 5 c o mmerce would have the same energy consumption. In 6 r e ality, it may have different energy consumptions, but 7 w h at you show is going to be -- 8 MR. BAUMAN: You're going to rate that, yeah. 9 MS. BARHYDT: You rate everything -- 10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff from Nash. You 11 a l so, when we talk about physical, would have to have 12 t h e same volume also as a physical characteristic. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 14 MR. BAUMAN: It would have to have the same 15 v o lume and the same energy consumption. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. I mean, that's why I 17 s a id it depends on what their offering is. 18 MR. BAUMAN: Right, right. 19 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, you'd have to have a 20 p r etty limited offering for refrigerated cases to be 21 a b le to do that. 22 MR. SHEBIK: I apologize; I do need to run

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 214 1 t h ough, so sorry. I will catch up. 2 MS. BARHYDT: So recognizing that the basic 3 m o del definitions are not going to be set in stone 4 d u ring this meeting, there's still feedback that I 5 t h ink some of you want to get on some of the product 6 t y pes. We need to go back and we need to look at some 7 o f the information you all provided to us. 8 MR. BAUMAN: Laura, excuse me. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 10 MR. BAUMAN: I apologize. Can we jump back? 11 I guess one question I have really on all these is in 12 t h e preamble are you going to include, because we say 13 t e rms like essentially identical, that'll be covered in 14 t h e preamble, as far as what essentially identical 15 m e ans? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. 18 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, is it clear to everyone 19 w h at the Department means by that? Because essentially 20 i d entical is a way of us saying at the end of the day 21 y o u're saying that these things are all rated the same. 22 T h at you are not making claims that they are performing

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 215 1 i n a different way. 2 So "essentially identical" is really up to 3 y o u guys. We're putting in some basically wiggle room 4 f o r you to decide how you want to group things into 5 y o ur basic models. And the "essentially identical" 6 l a nguage has been there forever. We struggled in the 7 f i rst certification rule trying to come up with some 8 o t her way to say it. We haven't come up with better 9 w o rds. We're open to suggestions, but that's what we 10 m e an, is that you are making the decision that I'm 11 g o ing to group these the same, and I'm going to say 12 t h at they're more or less the same for efficiency 13 p u rposes, because I'm rating them all the same way. 14 MR. AMRANE: Right. But not to spend too 15 m u ch time on this. But I still have an issue with 16 t h at, because it means then by definition, by having 17 t h is definition, that you could have a very large 18 n u mber of basic models. Let's say if you want to 19 d i stinguish a product and you have let's say one with 20 L E Ds, another one with (inaudible), I mean, it's the 21 s a me case. But then one is not the same energy 22 c o nsumption, so it's a different basic model. And

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 216 1 t h at, of course, if you have a AEDM, if you support 2 t h at you can do anything with an AEDM, probably there's 3 n o issue here. But if I don't have an AEDM, it means 4 t h at I will have to test every one of those basic 5 m o dels. And that's where I -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: So, Karim, if you don't test 7 i t , where did that number come from? 8 MR. AMRANE: Well, you know, you could have - 9

- I don't know, you got some estimates you know the 10 A E DM consumption. 11 MS. BARHYDT: That's what an AEDM is. 12 MR. AMRANE: You're right; that's true. But 13 a g ain, we're talking about an AEDM that has to be 14 w i thin five percent and, you know, some people might -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 16 MR. AMRANE: I don't know, might have some -- 17 MR. HON: It's a very difficult situation 18 h e re, because not only did we have regulations which 19 p u t us into this category before, but then a few years 20 a g o, we got a double testing requirement; every unit 21 h a d to be tested twice. So not only do we have single 22 t e sting, we have double testing. And now we're being

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 217 1 c h opped down, chopped down and chopped down in the 2 s p aces here. Understand that we have a huge amount of 3 t e st data compared to some things here. But -- 4 MR. AMRANE: Your product had been regulated 5 f o r years, but let's say those display cases are not 6 y e t effective. I mean, it's going to be -- 7 MR. HON: That's what I'm saying. And that's 8 e x actly why I'm saying that. But we do sell remote 9 r e frigeration. We do make it and we do test it. So 10 t h at's what I'm concerned about here is because in the 11 s e lf-contained we had the double requirement. Now 12 w e 're getting into the other category and it's becoming 13 v e ry difficult, because the configurations will be 14 v e ry, very big as well. 15 MR. AMRANE: I guess for me I don't see the 16 h a rm how you group it. It's up to you. Even if it's 17 n o t with the same efficiency, as long as you're 18 r e sponsible for those ratings, as long as, you know, if 19 y o u are, that if one of those basic models fail, then 20 e v erything that's in the basic model will have to be 21 r e rated. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So from the Department's

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 218 1 p e rspective there are two ways to get a rating. One is 2 b y testing, and one is through AEDM. And those are the 3 o n ly two ways. There's no third, well, I just know. 4 I ' m an engineer and I have a lot of expertise. If 5 y o u're an engineer and you have a lot of expertise, get 6 a n AEDM. 7 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes from Climate Master. 8 W e -- with water source heat pumps, you know, regarding 9 t e sting, basically, and I think we've had these 10 d i scussions in past section meetings, our industry we 11 b a sically test every product that we have a rating for. 12 W e typically don't have -- we do not have an AEDM. 13 We're trying to develop one right now, but it 14 s t arted from scratch a little over two years ago. And 15 w e 're working with a number of different, some 16 u n iversities from different companies. And it's 17 p r ogressing along at a fast rate. I mean, that's just 18 t h e fact of the matter. But where I see the burden is 19 n o t so much in the testing of the products here, but 20 i t 's in the testing of the products for verification 21 t h at DOE require. You know, right now testing 22 l a boratories such as ETL can't keep up with the amount

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 219 1 o f testing that they have, based on the definition of a 2 b a sic model that AHRI has. And if that definition gets 3 e x tended and there's more products to be tested, who's 4 g o ing to do all that testing? 5 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure I entirely 6 f o llowed the question. 7 MR. WOSTAL: Well, you're saying that you've 8 g o t two choices, either test it or use an AEDM. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 10 MR. WOSTAL: Let's say that a company chooses 11 n o t to use an AEDM. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 13 MR. WOSTAL: And we test all of our products 14 t o determine the rating. Then whose going -- the 15 t e sting, the verification testing, I mean, I guess DOE 16 w o uld just, and you would accept our testing of our 17 p r oduct. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, we don't require third 19 p a rty testing. 20 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Not unless that we get into 22 t h ose AEDM provisions.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 220 1 MR. WOSTAL: I guess that's where I was 2 l o sing the -- 3 MR. AMRANE: But you will have to do two 4 t e sts of each basic model, basically. 5 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 7 MR. SACHS: Unless it's unique product. 8 MR. BAUMAN: Or unless you have an AEDM. 9 MR. AMRANE: Or unless you an AEDM, yeah. 10 MS. BARHYDT: But it's two per basic model. 11 A n d if you have a range of efficiencies you test your 12 l e ast efficient one. 13 MR. AMRANE: You're right; you can go to the 14 l o west denominator and you can do that. I understand. 15 B u t at the same time then there is, you know -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: I understand. Our concern is 17 t h at there should not be ratings that are based on 18 s o mething other than AEDM or testing. Because 19 o t herwise we don't know where that number came from. 20 MR. RIVEST: I don't think an AEDM has to 21 c o me from a first thermodynamic principals here. It 22 c a n be a regression analysis.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 221 1 MR. AMRANE: Well, believe me, for the water 2 s o urce heat pump guys, I mean, they've been struggling 3 f o r two years to have an ADEM. So far at least it's 4 n o t working that way. I mean, they are not able. 5 MR. RIVEST: But what I'm telling you is, it 6 d o esn't have to be a -- 7 MR. WOSTAL: Well, we're struggling to meet 8 t h e accuracy requirements. 9 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's where they're 11 s t ruggling is in the accuracy requirement. It was -- 12 n o w, I realize in this working group -- 13 MR. WOSTAL: I'm sure that's where most 14 e v erybody struggles. 15 MS. BARHYDT: I was going to say, and we've 16 a d dressed some of those issues. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: But they were trying to be 18 c o mpliant, and so -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: I appreciate that. 20 MR. HALLEY: Well, are you saying then that 21 i f we've got a lot of existing testing, we can plot it 22 a n d (inaudible).

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 222 1 MR. RIVEST: An AEDM is not defined as to 2 w h at it means. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 4 MR. RIVEST: It's alternate determination 5 m e thod. 6 MR. HALLEY: Yeah, and one will take you a 7 c o uple years, in my experience, to get there. 8 MR. RIVEST: I mean, it's just a linear 9 i n terpolation of two points. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. I mean, we've said 11 l i near interpolation as well. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but if you've got a chunk 13 o f data already it's, you know, in the boiler industry 14 a lot of this data is acquired during ULC safety 15 t e sting, not necessarily performance testing. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So that is one of the AEDM 17 r e quirements, is that the testing has to be done in 18 a c cordance with the DOE test procedure. And we're 19 a w are of -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: We can't do it right now. 21 MS. BARHYDT: That issue and for some of 22 t h ose products the manufacturers need to be filing a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 223 1 p e tition for a test procedure waiver, so that we can 2 d e al with that in parallel with the test procedure 3 r u lemaking. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: We have a AEDM meeting next 5 w e ek. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: And I will broadcast that 8 i n formation. 9 MR. MOLVIE: I have a question. Once a 10 w a iver is issued, is that available to anybody? 11 MS. BARHYDT: Not exactly. I will say that 12 w h ere a lot of manufacturers come in that have more or 13 l e ss the same technology or the same test procedure 14 p r oblem, the test procedures usually get processed more 15 q u ickly. But by its nature of test procedure waiver is 16 a n administrative law, it's an adjudicatory decision, 17 s o it's a case-by-case analysis, as opposed to a 18 r u lemaking, where it's a change for the entire 19 i n dustry. So it's not an automatic granting; it is a 20 c a se-by-case review. 21 MS. DANE: And that takes 90 days. 22 MS. BARHYDT: It may take longer than that.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 224 1 MS. DANE: Because 90's already too long if 2 w e 're trying to get a product. I know there was some 3 c o ncern about it being 90 days or greater. If we take 4 a n order and we're trying to get an order to market, 5 a n d we don't fit into a test procedure, yet we have to 6 m a rk a rating on it; how would we go about that? I 7 m e an, we have to sit on the order until that's done? 8 W e ll, sometimes we get a customer that wants their -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: And so the issue is that you 10 h a ve a different test procedure problem than something 11 y o u've had before? 12 MS. DANE: We may have a one off of something 13 t h at's different. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Because -- 15 MS. DANE: And I know that's coming up in the 16 d i scussion, but since the discussion of waiver was 17 b r ought up I thought this was a good time to -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: So I am not advocating 19 d i stribution before you have an efficiency for your 20 p r oduct. But we do have an enforcement policy that we 21 d o not prosecute anyone who is waiting for a pending 22 w a iver application.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 225 1 MS. DANE: So there is an option. Non2 o f ficial. 3 MS. BARHYDT: We will not prosecute, it's not 4 s a ying it is lawful. 5 MS. DANE: Well, we would certainly let you 6 k n ow as soon as we know. 7 MR. HON: The danger factor being that if it 8 d o esn't get accepted then you've done something. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 10 MS. DANE: I think Joe Saunders is on the 11 l i ne and he would like to speak to this definition. Is 12 t h at possible? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Definitely. 14 MR. EISNER: Joe? 15 MR. SAUNDERS: Yes, sir. 16 MR. EISNER: You had a comment? 17 MR. SAUNDERS: Hello. 18 MR. EISNER: We hear you. 19 MR. SAUNDERS: Yes, sir. Oh, okay, I didn't 20 k n ow. My comment was about basic models. I sent the 21 m o derator, whoever's name the webpage had, the exact 22 w o rding. And I'd just like to read it for the record

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 226 1 a n d then I'll be finished. A basic model means all 2 u n its of commercial refrigeration equipment 3 m a nufactured by one manufacturer, having the same 4 p r imary energy source. Then in parentheses, I wrote, 5 p l ug, cord connected equipment or connection point 6 p e rmanently connected equipment, end of parentheses, 7 w h ich have essentially identical electrical, physical 8 a n d functional characteristics that affect energy 9 c o nsumption per the total display area, or TDA, or 10 r e frigerated volume as applicable. And then I have a 11 c o uple comments to go like that. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 13 MR. SAUNDERS: Section of the (inaudible) 14 s e ction 431, part 66, the energy consumption for CRE 15 e q uipment is determined, A, either by the volume, if it 16 i s self-contained, or by the cold display area if it is 17 a remote cabinet. So having those two items identified 18 a t the end helps clarify it. And then removing energy 19 e f ficiency, water efficiency and water usage, which 20 h a ve no part of section 431, part 66 removed any 21 a m bient air, or something that could cause a mix-up. 22 A n d then also the hydraulic stuff. I'm not even quite

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 227 1 s u re where that came from. 2 And then in addition, the cord and primary 3 c o nnected stipulations are part of UL 471, which is the 4 s a fety standard that governs all of this equipment. 5 M e aning where does that energy source start? Meaning 6 i f you don't stipulate where the energy sources starts, 7 p r imary energy source, there could be done the road 8 s o me misunderstanding or misrepresentation of where 9 t h at energy source starts. And that is what we're 10 t r ying to measure with these regulations. So those are 11 m y comments. The wording was sent to the moderator via 12 i n ternet message. So I'm not sure if it's displayed or 13 n o t, but those were my comments. And I appreciate you 14 a l lowing me the opportunity to state them. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Would you like us to respond, 16 o r were you mainly wanting it just put on the record 17 f o r the record of the public meeting? 18 MR. SAUNDERS: I wanted to -- I didn't know 19 w h at all the rules were legally. Meaning I didn't know 20 i f I have to say them myself or what. So that's why I 21 a s ked to speak. And I think it helps clarify what a 22 b a sic model is, or how it could be interpreted. In

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 228 1 k e eping in line with DOE's desires. I mean, I didn't 2 r e ally change what you said. I just clarified couple 3 o f points and remove stuff that could cause confusion 4 d o wn the road. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So the issue with primary 6 s o urce, the energy source is the type of energy. And 7 t o give you some context, this definition originally, 8 a n d the reason it had hydraulic in there, it was a 9 g e neric definition that covered all of the products DOE 10 r e gulates. So it covered water faucets in your 11 h o usehold bathroom, all the way up to the large unitary 12 a i r conditioners. So it spanned a huge range of 13 p r oducts. And so energy source actually was referring 14 t o whether or not it was an energy water, whether the 15 e n ergy was coming from gas, electricity. So it's not 16 t a lking about does it plug into the wall. It's talking 17 a b out they run on electricity. 18 MR. SAUNDERS: I understand what you're 19 s a ying. But it doesn't apply here. Because 431.66 20 d o esn't reference water sources, hydraulic sources or 21 t h e like. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So we took out

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 229 1 h y draulic. But what I'm saying is that primary energy 2 s o urce is not referring to the plug into the wall. 3 I t 's referring to electricity. 4 MR. HON: That's not necessarily a complete 5 t r ue statement. Because there are a whole lot of 6 a b sorption units built which use propane or natural 7 g a s, and that is a primary energy source. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so we can do an 9 p a renthetical that gives us more options on that. 10 MR. SAUNDERS: I hear what you're saying. 11 MR. HON: That's not covered by the standard. 12 MS. BARHYDT: And it's not subject to the 13 s t andard, is that what you said? 14 MR. SAUNDERS: Whoever said that, that could 15 b e a true statement. The regulations of 431.66 doesn't 16 p r ovide acceptable rating criteria for those alternate 17 e n ergy sources. They provide alternate rating rated 18 o n ly for kilowatts per day. 19 MR. BAUMAN: It's the rating of the test 20 p r ocedure. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Right, okay. But so the only 22 o n es that we're regulating are electric.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 230 1 MR. SAUNDERS: If you leave those in there, 2 w h at is the rating for water? I mean, am I going to 3 u s e -- 4 MR. STANONIK: It's gone. 5 MS. BARHYDT: No, it's gone. We took that 6 o u t. 7 MR. SAUNDERS: Okay. All right. Thank you, 8 I ' m having trouble seeing here. 9 MR. STANONIK: I think, Laura, you might want 10 t o explain why you took away the display case and the 11 v o lume. 12 MS. BARHYDT: The other. Okay, so the test 13 p r ocedure, the way the test procedure is written, you 14 d e termine the -- are they both efficiency, or is one 15 e f ficiency and one consumption, or they're both 16 c o nsumption? 17 MR. BAUMAN: They're both consumption. 18 MS. BARHYDT: They're both consumption. 19 MR. SAUNDERS: They're both consumption. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So the test procedure is set up 21 s o that it determines the consumption in a way that it 22 d e termines for a fixed size case. It's not generating

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 231 1 a metric that is based on, for example, linear feet, or 2 i t 's not generated a number that's based on total 3 d i splay area. The test procedure takes you all the way 4 t h rough, and you actually calculate it for a fixed size 5 o f case. So -- 6 MR. SAUNDERS: That's correct. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So that -- 8 MR. SAUNDERS: Either by volume or -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: But so that is what the level 10 a t which a basic model would be set. If you wanted to 11 d o some kind of extrapolation, some kind of 12 m a thematical model of how that might apply to other 13 c a ses, that would fall within an AEDM. But that would 14 n o t make them all the same basic model. 15 MR. SAUNDERS: Am I still on? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 17 MR. SAUNDERS: Okay, I agree with that. And 18 i t would be energy consumption either by the volume of 19 t h e case or by the total display area of a fixed case. 20 A n d I agree with that. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 22 MR. BAUMAN: Laura, I just want to keep in

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 232 1 m i nd too, I know there was a lot of, you know, we were 2 o r iginally discussing this yesterday, there was a lot 3 o f passion in parts of the room. Some folks on the 4 o t her side with the open cases, Southern Equipment, I 5 k n ow there's been concerns in the past with Kaiser 6 W a rren, Hill Phoenix and people about open cases. 7 I'm hoping, assuming from the concerns I 8 r e call having a couple years ago now that probably what 9 l e d to us getting to this and the AEDMs and such, that 10 t h at AEDMs are going to address that sufficiently for 11 m a nufacturers. Versus where were previously looking at 12 b a sic models would, expanding basic models would solve 13 t h at. So I don't know how much negative, or questions 14 o r comments you're going to get from people that aren't 15 h e re who are try to decide on this right now. But I 16 w o uldn't be surprised at that. Just for clarity, you 17 k n ow. 18 MS. BARHYDT: I realize that the change from 19 n o AEDM to having an AEDM changes the ballgame 20 s i gnificantly for you. 21 MR. BAUMAN: And I assume there's nobody on 22 t h e call for any of these companies that wants to jump

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 233 1 i n on open cases. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Nobody's pinging that they want 3 t o talk. So, yeah, go ahead. 4 MR. HON: But are we going to make any change 5 i n that as far as primary energy source? 6 MS. BARHYDT: So what we've done in the past, 7 b e cause we've actually had this situation, we left it 8 s o that it's limited to the same primary energy source, 9 w h ere only one energy source was regulated. That way 10 i f at some point in the future it changes, the 11 d e finition stays the same. 12 MR. SAUNDERS: Can I ask a question? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 14 MR. SAUNDERS: Am I still on, ma'am? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, you are. 16 MR. SAUNDERS: I would like to ask a 17 q u estion, I think it's simple. What if you sell a 18 r e frigerator, like Charlie does, and you have a sign 19 k i t for it, does the sign kit get included with the 20 p r imary energy source of the refrigerator? And the 21 s i gn kit would have a separate power cord. How would 22 y o u handle, two pieces, it could be married in the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 234 1 f i eld by a customer to have two different power cords, 2 o n e for the refrigerator and one for a sign kit that 3 w o uld hang on the front of the cabinet. Maybe it says 4 " c old drinks sold here." 5 MS. BARHYDT: I have no idea what a sign kit 6 i s . 7 MS. JAKOBS: A sign. 8 MR. SAUNDERS: Well, imagine like -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: And it hangs on the front of 10 t h e -- 11 MR. MYERS: It's a lighted sign. 12 MR. SACHS: Like a Michelob sign on the front 13 o f a bar window. Have you seen those? 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 15 MR. BAUMAN: Coors Light, Budweiser. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Why would that be part of the 17 c o vered equipment? 18 MR. BAUMAN: Why would it be covered? 19 MS. BARHYDT: Why would that even be covered? 20 I t seems to me that that's not part of the regulated 21 p r oduct. 22 MR. SAUNDERS: Well, that's what I want to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 235 1 a s k. Because a vendor, whoever it is, could sell a 2 r e frigerator, you know, for merchandising anything, 3 s o da, or whatever. And then they might have a kit that 4 g o es with it that says cold drinks and you would -- 5 MS. JAKOBS: Oh, like part of the machine. 6 MR. SAUNDERS: They were built from the same 7 m a nufacturer. And you plug them in essentially to a 8 r e ceptacle. 9 MS. JAKOBS: But Coke machines or beverages 10 v e nding machines are regulated separately. 11 MR. SAUNDERS: And I didn't if they're two 12 p i eces and the only the refrigerator is regulated, or 13 i s it one considered one piece and both of them go 14 t o gether. 15 MS. DANE: I believe the original concern we 16 h a s is our units are identified by serial number and by 17 d e vice number. And we could some of those options as 18 p a rt of our model. And since at that time it wouldn't 19 b e the basic, the consumption would be different, do we 20 h a ve to go and make a basic model for all that, or 21 w o uld we want to discuss exemptions. Or if we took it 22 o f f and it was two separate pieces, how that would be

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 236 1 a f fected by the regulation. I think there's some 2 c o nfusion on that. But we were kind of waiting until 3 t h e same discussion with the night curtains and the 4 w a ter condensation. 5 MS. BARHYDT: I was going to say, things like 6 t h at I don't think I would have anticipated. So if you 7 h a ve more questions like that, make the list. 8 MR. STANONIK: Does it add pressure drop? 9 MS. DANE: I beg your pardon? 10 MR. STANONIK: I said does it add pressure 11 d r op? 12 MS. DANE: Oh, okay. Some. 13 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Most of those 14 a r e integral into the system almost exclusively. When 15 y o u have a big customer, you just build them into the 16 s y stem. But there are people -- there are ways if you 17 w a nted to circumvent power consumption, you would pull 18 t h e lights off and make them a separate plug. There is 19 a question there about that, but that's when it's going 20 t o dicey on interpretation. We're going to need this 21 i n terpretation. 22 So we'll be bringing you a list of

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 237 1 p o tentials, because some lights are impossible to 2 r e move. The internal light from the unit you can't 3 t a ke out. The external light we could pull off and 4 m a de a slip on kit, plug it in separately. It'd look 5 l i ke the dickens, because you have extra cords hanging 6 e v erywhere. But it could be done that way to 7 c i rcumvent the total power consumption unit. Now, we 8 a l so have the same question coming if we do this, how 9 d o we deal with Energy Star in the same category, 10 b e cause it's all covered under the same criteria. 11 T h ere are a lot of other add-ons that can happen. 12 MR. SAUNDERS: May I speak? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead. 14 MR. SAUNDERS: I picked lighted signs, 15 b e cause we don't make any. Again, we'll just take that 16 o u t of the equation. The next thing is what Charlie is 17 s a ying is his company doesn't make accessories that 18 h a ng on the front of the cabinet. But there are other 19 c o mpanies that do make lighted signs that hang on the 20 f r ont of cabinets. And they may not be like his lighted 21 s i gn kits; they may be bigger, smaller, or something 22 e l se. But it's not true. What you need to consider

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 238 1 h e re is the industry as a whole. And take the lighted 2 s i gns, because we don't make any of them, so we don't 3 h a ve a iron in that fire. But I wanted to make that as 4 a n example. 5 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon again. We do 6 m a ke add-on kits on occasion for old units and 7 d i fferent things. But the situation is, is that our 8 m a rket is driven in a different way predominantly. But 9 t h ere are exceptions to that rule. And if that 10 e x ception becomes an avoidance of energy consumption, 11 y o u can make your numbers look really good by not 12 h a ving that light on. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So, again, if you all will make 14 y o ur list for your products and then we'll go through 15 t h ose. So, again, recognizing that there are still 16 b a sic model issues out there, would people be up for 17 s t arting tiptoe into the waters of what certification 18 w o uld actually entail? 19 MR. EISNER: We have one slide on outstanding 20 i s sues. Do we want to put that up? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, do we? 22 MS. TUCKER: We did.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 239 1 MR. STEM: We covered that. 2 MR. EISNER: We covered everything on there 3 n o w? 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Why don't we take a break? 6 MS. BARHYDT: So think about that and we'll 7 t a ke a break. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Can we also -- and maybe you 9 m e ntioned this before, and if so I apologize, but I've 10 f o rgotten it. What's the process going to be when we 11 t a lked about the package A factor clipping, for 12 e x ample. There were a number of things that were not 13 d e cided on. What's the process for that? Do we need to 14 h a ve more discussion on that, do you need more 15 i n formation? 16 MS. BARHYDT: So we're going to send out some 17 i n formation before the next meeting and plan on 18 w r apping up that discussion at the next meeting. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 20 MS. BARHYDT: I think we need to sit down. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Will we have some time to look 22 a t that before the next meeting?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 240 1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 3 MR. AMRANE: Will we have access to whatever 4 c h anges that you made today, so at least we can -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, we can do that pretty 6 e a sily. 7 MR. EISNER: The list of issues that you've 8 b e en talking about on other things, do you want those 9 t o be sent in for the next meeting? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, if you all can provide 11 t h at before the next meeting that would be ideal. And 12 t h en -- 13 MR. HON: We have an extended time this time. 14 MS. TUCKER: Yeah, three weeks. 15 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, three weeks. We have a 16 b r eak. 17 MR. EISNER: We also have two reports, 18 h o wever, that I want to talk about when we get back 19 f r om the break, two reports that have to go out that 20 m a y go back to you to look at quickly before they're 21 s e nt out. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Two or one? Two?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 241 1 MR. EISNER: Well, there's AEDM and there's 2 ( i naudible). They could be combined. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. Yeah. 4 MR. EISNER: I think we want to get the AEDM 5 r i ght out. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 7 MR. EISNER: And then do the interim report 8 t h at's due June 26th. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 10 MR. HON: I don't see how we're going to get 11 t h rough certifications and anything else today if we're 12 d o ing anything else. We still have not agreed 13 c o mpletely on everything going to the ASRAC committee; 14 h a ve we? 15 MS. BARHYDT: I thought we voted on the 16 A E DMs. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: The AEDM. 18 MR. HON: Yes, so everything else we send in? 19 MS. BARHYDT: The other thing is just a 20 p r ogress report. 21 MR. HON: Okay. 22 MR. EISNER: And that's --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 242 1 MS. BARHYDT: But we're still working on 2 b a sic model definitions. 3 MR. EISNER: And that, when we come back from 4 t h e break, we went to see if there are any specific 5 i d eas or points you would want to make in the progress 6 r e port. And if Corey's nice, she'll put them up on the 7 s c reen for everybody to look at, so we all have data. 8 Okay, take a ten-minute break before it gets 9 t o 3:00. 10 (Whereupon, a short break was taken.) 11 MR. EISNER: For the first report that we 12 h a ve to submit to ASRAC, we're going to submit the AEDM 13 d o cument that we agreed to, saying that the committee 14 r e commends that the full ASRAC -- the subgroup rather, 15 r e commends that the full ASRAC approve it as a 16 r e commendation to submit to the Department of Energy to 17 b e gin rulemaking, or to get a notice of opposed 18 r u lemaking. What I see as a report that would be very 19 b r ief that would put that chart that we agreed to and 20 t h e summary that we agreed to in context. A little bit 21 o f the factual background of what we did, how we got to 22 i t , why it was an expansion of our original scope for

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 243 1 t h is project. So any points that you would want to 2 m a ke, any issues you would want to raise in this report 3 w e ought to talk about quickly? 4 MR. HALLEY: Well, I'd just like to make sure 5 t h at this sort of manufacturer's inclusion in the 6 t e sting one that are too large to test in the 7 m a nufacturer's facility. 8 MS. TUCKER: It's in the AEDM. 9 MR. EISNER: The AEDM report that we ordered 10 o u t at the beginning of these two days worth of 11 m e etings will be the attachment. That is the primary 12 s u bstantive document. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's important to me. 14 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other points, other 15 i s sues, other things people would like to raise? Okay. 16 T h e second report is the report that was required by 17 A S RAC of the -- I'm sorry, go ahead. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I'm just trying to hear 19 y o u. 20 MR. EISNER: No, no, there's a man behind 21 y o u. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm just trying to hear you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 244 1 m o re than anything. 2 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTD. I 3 t h ink one of the important points to make to ASRAC is 4 t h at we're doing all this with the intent that once 5 w e 're at the end we want to have the ability to go back 6 a n d look at the previous steps we've taken, to make 7 s u re that everything fits together as a whole. 8 MR. EISNER: Corey, can you start us up a 9 s h eet and get that up there? That's understood. 10 T h at's a good point to make that we can put into the 11 r e port itself. Again, this is not going to be getting 12 i n to great deal on substance. I see it as, for 13 e x ample, attaching the schedule to show how we intend 14 t o complete the project by the end of August. I see it 15 a s telling them what progress we have made so far in 16 t e rms of what issues we have gone through. And the 17 f a ct that we've got ground rules and we're exceeding 18 t h e ground rules in terms of consensus support, those 19 k i nds of things. 20 Are there other points you'd want to make? 21 D o you want to say anything about how optimistic a 22 g r oup is, or unoptimistic a group is? Do you want to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 245 1 s a y whether you think you can or cannot meet the 2 d e adline for the final report? Do you want to avoid 3 t h ose subject? 4 MR. SACHS: I would be willing to say that 5 I ' m encouraged by the spirit of working together. But 6 I don't think I'm at a point of being able or willing 7 t o predict whether we'll be successful or not. 8 MR. EISNER: Others agree with Harvey and 9 w o uld they put that down as one of the things we should 10 m e ntion? 11 MR. JOHNSON: Can you just restate that, 12 H a rvey? I heard the word "encourage," but then 13 e v erything else went away. 14 MR. SACHS: I'm encouraged with the attitudes 15 a n d the efforts and the progress we're making. But I 16 c e rtainly don't feel in a position to predict that we 17 w i ll or will not succeed. 18 MR. JOHNSON: I would agree with that. 19 MS. JAKOBS: I think there's a number of 20 i s sues that have been tabled or deferred to later. So 21 t h ere's some apprehension about what that will be. 22 MR. EISNER: Do you want to make that point,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 246 1 o r do you -- 2 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, I think you should. 3 MS. JAKOBS: Some of the hard things have 4 b e en pushed until later. And people made assumptions 5 b a sed on what they thought would happen later and what 6 w e did now. And if that doesn't work out the way, it 7 m i ght not, I don't know, it might be confusing. Well, 8 t h e whole thing about basic models and -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Well, I mean, we just started 10 t h at discussion and I think there are a lot of 11 s i gnificant substantive issues. And I don't want us to 12 r u sh to a judgment. And so to me, that wasn't an issue 13 t h at we had to resolve before the interim report. And 14 I ' d rather us continue the discussion at the next 15 m e eting. Give everyone additional time to think about 16 i t , to look at it. I know Karim wants to get some 17 a d ditional information from some of the manufacturing 18 g r oups. 19 MR. EISNER: Anything else? 20 MR. AMRANE: But about the timeline, we have 21 u n til, what, the end of August? 22 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 247 1 MR. AMRANE: I mean, are we going to be able 2 t o meet the deadline or not? I mean, the way it's 3 g o ing. 4 MS. BARHYDT: I think so. There's not that 5 m u ch left. I mean, basic model was the most 6 c o mplicated issue. 7 MR. JOHNSON: But we're not done with the 8 b a sic model discussion. 9 MS. BARHYDT: No, we're not. But we 10 c e rtainly covered a lot of material the last few days. 11 MR. JOHNSON: We did. 12 MR. EISNER: There's two aspects to what you 13 t e ll a committee generally in this kind of a situation. 14 T h e deadline is established with a purpose to makes 15 s u re that no one can use this process to delay the 16 i s suance of some action in the future in the future, 17 w h ether it's a rulemaking or something else. So there 18 a r e two aspects of where we are. One is we've got a 19 l o ng way to go. The other one is based on the way you 20 c a me into these meetings at the first, it was a month 21 a n d a half ago, do you feel more optimistic than you 22 w e re then about the ability to get something done, even

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 248 1 i f you can't meet the schedule? Because that's 2 s o mething you'd want to say to the full committee. 3 We're not going to make the schedule. And we 4 d o n't have to say it now, we might say that to them in 5 e a rly August. We're not going to make the schedule, 6 b u t we recommend you extend the deadline, because we 7 b e lieve we're making very good progress. So that's the 8 k i nd of message you could also send now. We've got a 9 l o t to do, but we believe we're making more progress 10 t h an we expected we could make, or we think we're 11 m a king very, very good progress. And then you don't 12 h a ve to say that now. You might want to wait until 13 A u gust when you know a little bit more. But you might 14 w a nt to give them a positive message if you think 15 y o u've got one now. 16 MR. DOPPEL: When you say "extend the 17 d e adline," which deadline? 18 MR. EISNER: The deadline for a final report 19 b y the end of August. 20 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. 21 MR. EISNER: So what happens sometimes is 22 c o mmittees make very good progress, but they can't meet

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 249 1 t h e deadline that's been established by the agency 2 h e ad, or the committee that delegated to you. So they 3 s a y, "We can't make the deadline. We think it will 4 t a ke us three more weeks or six more weeks. We 5 s t rongly recommend that you approve it, because we 6 b e lieve we will be successful." In other words, we're 7 n o t using this to delay; we're using this because we 8 t h ink we can meet it. And again, the agency has to be 9 o n e of the parties that would agree with something like 10 t h at. 11 MR. BAUMAN: I guess one of the things I'd 12 l i ke to clarify -- I mean, the second bolt there is 13 k i nd of what you were saying. The second of it saying 14 I ' m willing to agree that we will or will not succeed. 15 D o you mean within the time period allotted, or do you 16 t h ink we're not going to succeed? Is that meant to say 17 w e don't know if we're going to succeed at all, or 18 w i thin the time allotted? 19 MR. EISNER: And you don't even have to say 20 t h is. I'm not sure you meant for it to be included in 21 t h e report. I thought you might've meant just this 22 p a rt. You don't have to say this unless you're ready to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 250 1 s a y it. 2 MR. BAUMAN: I think we, based on your 3 c o mments, which I appreciate, I think is very accurate 4 a s far as I think I would describe it as very in depth 5 d i scussions that have gotten into a lot of detail and a 6 l o t of things have been flushed out to a level that's 7 b e en productive, but may push us past the anticipated 8 t i meline. 9 MR. EISNER: People generally agree with 10 s a ying something like that? 11 MS. DANE: Especially since we added the AEDM 12 i n to our scope. I don't think when the original 13 d e adline was set that that was going to be part of our 14 t i meline. And so that took a couple of meetings to kind 15 o f get through, and therefore it would make sense that 16 t h e schedule would be a little late. 17 MR. EISNER: That's a very good point. And 18 t h at is something I didn't necessarily want to draw any 19 c o nclusions about the schedule. I'm not saying we 20 c a n't. But I was intending to at least say that we've 21 c o vered more than the full committee, the full ASRAC 22 e x pected us to considered when they assigned the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 251 1 p r oject to us. But, Charlie, you seem to have some 2 c o ncern. 3 MR. HON: I don't have concerns. I don't 4 b e lieve that we'll run beyond the deadline. 5 MR. EISNER: All right. 6 MR. HON: I think they way we've gone through 7 a n d we've beat up the necessary portions here, I think 8 w e have gotten to the point where we can move a lot 9 f a ster than we have in the past. I think that meeting 10 o f the horses helped us understand how to function 11 q u icker. And we're moving forward at a much greater 12 r a te now than we were when we started. 13 MR. EISNER: So everybody feels, I think, 14 p o sitive about this. Just how to word this part. 15 MR. SACHS: Yeah, if anything that's a 16 s e parate bullet anyhow. 17 MR. MYERS: Jeff, thank you for bringing that 18 u p . 19 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 20 MR. MYERS: I think we're all willing to do 21 i t ; we just feel unable to do it. 22 MR. EISNER: And it could be we could add to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 252 1 i t Mary's point about the fact that we've got more than 2 w e originally were asked to do in that timeframe. But 3 a g ain, you could say something like we think we can, or 4 a t the present time we're not certain, but we believe 5 w e can meet the deadline. We will let the committee 6 k n ow as such time as we think we'll need more if we 7 n e ed it. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Well, one thing that is kind of 9 h a nging out there is that the things that we're 10 i d entifying going through the basic model definitions 11 t h at are not clear. So we don't have a path to 12 r e solution on those. And we won't find that out until 13 n e xt time. So that's kind of an iffy situation. 14 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, a few of them we did 15 s a y. 16 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 17 MS. JAKOBS: So but the one you said no, is 18 t h at like final? I mean, if you say yes, that's cool. 19 B u t where you said no is kind of like, no. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Which one did I say no? 21 MS. JAKOBS: Coated coils. 22 MR. WHITWELL: No, copper coils was no, I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 253 1 t h ink. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Copper coil. 3 MR. FLY: Coated wasn't. Coated is the deal 4 w i thin a product class. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Coated was still -- 6 MS. JAKOBS: Copper. It was the very first 7 o n e you said. 8 MR. RIVEST: I did, actually. She wasn't 9 h e re. 10 MS. JAKOBS: Oh, okay. 11 MR. RIVEST: I said no for copper, and I said 12 w e don't know for coated. We hadn't made a decision. 13 MS. JAKOBS: But copper coils, it was no. 14 MR. FLY: Well, I think in support of that 15 a b ove where we're at, I mean, we've been able to reach 16 c o nsensus on all the points that we had addressed. I 17 d o n't think we've tabled things because we couldn't 18 r e ach a consensus, we tabled things because we weren't 19 r e ady to talk about it then. 20 MR. MYERS: Or we needed more information. 21 MR. FLY: Or needed more information. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Exactly.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 254 1 MR. MYERS: I think that's a good 2 d i stinction. 3 MR. EISNER: Yeah. 4 MR. MYERS: Because I was encouraged by the 5 f a ct we were able to on the AEDM agree. And I didn't 6 t h ink we were going to have near the success. I 7 t h ought we would have some who were voting no. That 8 r e ally is encouraging. And we haven't yet come up 9 a g ainst an item that is one of those where, well, we'll 10 j u st agree to disagree and move on and see what we can 11 d o . 12 MR. EISNER: Is that something that they 13 w e ren't tabled because of disagreement, they were 14 t a bled because more information is needed? Did you 15 w a nt to add to this? 16 MR. STANONIK: It's based on discussion. 17 MR. EISNER: Is that fine the way it is? So 18 a n y kind of, not necessarily conclusion, anything more 19 y o u want to say in this empty bullet right here? 20 E n couraged with attitudes and efforts. You know, I 21 t h ink we've agreed we want to say something about we've 22 g o t more work than we were scheduled to be working on.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 255 1 A n d yet we still believe that we're likely to make the 2 s c hedule, or there's a good possibility. Do you want 3 t o say something along those lines? 4 MR. BAUMAN: I think to things, one talking 5 a b out encouraging, I think one of the things that's 6 b e en encouraging, but sometimes slowing us down is that 7 w e are I'll say striving hard for unanimous consensus 8 o n everything as we pointed out. We haven't had 9 a n ything that we've had -- I mean, I'm reminded 10 p r eviously, we did have two negative votes. But I 11 t h ink in a lot of ways it's good that we're working 12 t o wards that. 13 I would think you guys will be happier if we 14 h a ve everything unanimous. So I think that's been a 15 w o rthwhile effort. I think the question whether we're 16 g o ing to meet or not meet, I think there's, you know, I 17 d o n't know how the other discussions. I wouldn't hope 18 t h at we're going to need it, but I think as a group 19 w e 're probably I'd say unsure. But still driving, 20 s t ill striving towards that to meet the deadline. 21 MR. EISNER: I mean, the question is do you 22 w a nt to say anything more than this? You don't have

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 256 1 t o . Do you want to leave it as it is, or do you want 2 t o say something else? 3 MR. MYERS: It might be worthwhile to note 4 t h at all the participants are remaining active. We're 5 m e eting at a frenetic pace. For those of us that are 6 h a ving to, particularly those having to travel in from 7 o u tside at great cost and great contribution in terms 8 o f time, and those people are still coming. They're 9 s e eing the opportunity for success. 10 MR. EISNER: I mean, I'm supposed to -- go 11 a h ead. 12 MS. TUCKER: I was just going to ask if that 13 c o uld go along with this encouraged bullet, or do you 14 w a nt that as a separate? 15 MR. RIVEST: That's a separate bullet. 16 MS. TUCKER: Okay. 17 MR. EISNER: I mean, from my perspective as 18 t h e neutral, the first meeting I wasn't sure we were 19 g o ing to be able to get agreement, consensus with or 20 w i thout two negative votes by the end of August, let 21 a l one ever. My feeling is now the same as yours is: 22 w e 're going to get an agreement. There may be some

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 257 1 n e gative votes in some of the issues, but the way we're 2 g o ing right now we might get unanimous consensus on 3 e v erything. 4 It may take us longer. But it's up to you 5 w h ether you want to say that now. We don't have to. 6 A n d I agree with what I'm hearing around the room, you 7 g u ys are all trying very hard, you're talking very well 8 t o each other. I hear people listening to each other 9 a n d learning from each other. I said to a number of 10 y o u the last couple of days, although a bit tedious for 11 m e and others who, you know, weren't directly involved 12 b e cause of the equipment they manufacture. It was very 13 i n formative to watch all the adding information to the 14 c h art. Every five minutes, something new is going up 15 o n the chart. Everybody was learning from this 16 p r ocess. And that's what this is supposed to -- if 17 e v erybody learns and they still can't agree, we've done 18 t h e best we can. But everybody's learning; everybody's 19 l i stening. And I think that's very, very important. 20 Y o u guys are doing a great job at that. 21 MR. STANONIK: So what if it said too soon to 22 p r edict whether working group will succeed at its task

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 258 1 o r not. But all participants remain active and engaged 2 i n ongoing discussions of negotiations? 3 MR. EISNER: Does that work for people? 4 MR. WHITWELL: I would modify that, because I 5 t h ink when you say will succeed you're really talking 6 a b out succeeding as far as meeting the date. Right? 7 MR. EISNER: Well, actually, I meant coming 8 u p with the negotiated recommendation that -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Frank -- 10 MR. STANONIK: Actually, I'm not as worried 11 a b out Bates test results. 12 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah, see, I'm optimistic that 13 w e 're going to get there. I'm just not sure that we're 14 g o ing to get there -- 15 MR. STANONIK: Well, I didn't mean that. I 16 m e ant whether we will get there. 17 MR. BAUMAN: With same, you know, at the 18 t a rgeted date. But I'm optimistic that we're going to 19 g e t to where we wanted, to an agreement. 20 MR. EISNER: Does everybody want to say that? 21 A n d then the next bullet can be whether we'll make it 22 b y the date. Does everybody say we're optimistic that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 259 1 w e will get to an agreement, consensus agreement? 2 MR. STANONIK: Yes. 3 MR. MYERS: The one are that remains a 4 q u estion mark for me that we need to begin the 5 d i scussion on I think sooner rather than later is VICP. 6 Y o u said that that was a part of what we were trying to 7 a c complish. And we haven't had those discussions. So I 8 d o n't yet have a feel for how close we can come with 9 o u r thoughts. 10 MR. EISNER: Yeah, but this is not saying we 11 w i ll achieve consensus, we're optimistic. Are you 12 c o mfortable with that? Okay. 13 MR. SACHS: How about you say "cautiously 14 o p timistic." 15 MR. STANONIK: "Essentially optimistic." 16 MR. EISNER: Would people be more comfortable 17 w i th cautiously? 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Frank, would you agree that 19 e v erything we're doing is leading up to a better 20 p o sition going into that discussion? 21 MR. MYERS: Yes, absolutely. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So that's why I think we're

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 260 1 s t ructuring it. 2 MR. MYERS: We have a track record of 3 s u ccess. I'm really impressed with what the 4 m a nufacturers have done in terms of this is exposing 5 t h e inner workings of how things have occurred for 30 6 y e ars. And things that were not intuitively obvious to 7 r e gulators and to others. And to put that out on the 8 t a ble where that took a lot of honesty and a lot of 9 t r ust. And those are the things that encourage me that 10 w e 're going to make it to the end. 11 MR. STANONIK: I don't want to say that to 12 s e t you up, but I think everything we're doing is 13 s e quentially leading -- wait until you try and leave. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: I was in your office for a 15 h a lf hour, I saw it. 16 MR. EISNER: I've got to tell you I'm going 17 t o have a different feeling when I walk in and buy a 18 s i x- pack out of a refrigerated cooler in the store. 19 MR. MYERS: Where they have a sign on the 20 f r ont. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: And you don't want that voice 22 y o u're on it, you know, so we're going to make sure

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 261 1 t h at the space is dehumidified. 2 MR. EISNER: I hadn't even though about that 3 b e fore, but now I would. So do we want to add 4 c a utiously, or do you want to take cautiously out? 5 MR. STANONIK: It's reasonable. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: It is reasonable. 7 MR. EISNER: I would say one more bullet. Do 8 y o u want to say anything about time? We don't have to. 9 I t 's whatever you feel comfortable. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think it's too early to 11 t e ll. 12 MR. STANONIK: I think it's too early. I 13 t h ink we just leave it out. 14 MR. EISNER: Okay, that's fine. I think 15 w e 've got a good list and we can go to the report. 16 A n ybody got any questions or anything else? All right, 17 l e t's go the next slide, at least start talking about 18 i t , so that Laura will feel more comfortable with where 19 w e are on this issue. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so the current system is 21 t h at certification reports are submitted online through 22 a compliance certification management system. We also

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 262 1 a l low third parties to submit reports on behalf of 2 p a rties; we allow AHRI to send us files directly that 3 a r e uploaded into the system. That is a arrangement we 4 h a ve made that we have not offered to any other party, 5 s o everybody else is required to use the templates that 6 w e have online. The manufacturer or the third party -- 7 w h oever's actually accessing the compliance 8 c e rtification management system -- is required to 9 r e gister with the Department and provide some contact 10 i n formation. And the information that is provided is 11 i n the CFR 429.12 for all products and it's -- there's 12 s o me basic types of information. And then there's 13 p r oduct-specific information that's in 429.14 through 14 4 2 9.54 and the next slides kind of go through that in 15 m o re detail. 16 The certification is made by the 17 m a nufacturer. A third party representative is 18 s u bmitting the information on behalf of the 19 m a nufacturer, but it is the manufacturer who is 20 u l timately responsible for the certification that the 21 p r oduct meets the standard. 22 MR. HALLEY: Who would be the third-party

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 263 1 r e presentation in Q-mide (ph) case? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: So nobody is required to have a 3 t h ird-party representative. 4 MR. HALLEY: Okay. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Many, many, many manufacturers 6 s u bmit reports directly. 7 MR. HALLEY: Okay. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: And the system uses Excel 9 t e mplates. You go on our website, you download the 10 E x cel template, you fill it out. 11 MR. HALLEY: Right. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: The way it's designed is to 13 r e duce the burden of entering information, and you can 14 j u st use basically your same Excel file and just make 15 l i ttle modifications if you add models or remove 16 m o dels. You just do it all on that one spreadsheet. 17 MR. HALLEY: Right. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: The third-party representative 19 d o es make a statement whenever they submit the report 20 t h at, to the best of their knowledge, the information 21 i s true, accurate and complete, but again, it is the 22 m a nufacturer who is actually making the certification

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 264 1 t h at the product is compliant. 2 And the current requirement is that each 3 b a sic model must be certified prior to distribution in 4 c o mmerce, as well as annually on a specific date that 5 i s product -- it's a different date for various 6 p r oducts. And you also have to update your 7 c e rtification if you choose to something worse for the 8 c o nsumer. So, if you change your rating to be either 9 l e ss efficient or more consumptive, you have to notify 10 t h e Department when you make that change. 11 So that's the way the regulations are set out 12 r i ght now. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So I know there's been a lot of 14 c o ncern about the information that is submitted to the 15 D e partment, and the way the regulations are set out 16 r i ght now, some of the information is identified as 17 p u blici the regulation. This is the information that 18 D O E proactively posts on its website. And, from what I 19 u n derstand, a lot of suppliers are now going tour 20 w e bsite to see whether products are listed on our 21 w e bsite as having been certified for the products that 22 a r e submitting Certification Reports.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 265 1 And the information typically involves the 2 b r and. It does not include the manufacturer. So that 3 w h ere there is a private labeling relationship, we are 4 n o t publishing the manufacturer name. So we publish 5 b r and, we publish the model number -- the basic model 6 n u mber -- and we publish any of the metrics that are 7 r e gulated by the Department. So whatever your rating 8 i s . And we provide enough information so that that 9 m e tric makes sense, so that somebody who is trying to 10 c o mpare similar products can actually see -- limit 11 t h eir search to those pieces of information. 12 So that would be things like the capacity 13 m e trics, refrigerated volume, storage volume, cooling 14 c a pacity. 15 Information that is not identified as public 16 i n the regulations is not published on the website. 17 T h at is not to say that someone can't get the 18 i n formation. At that point, the information is subject 19 t o the Freedom of Information Act. While the Department 20 i s not proactively publishing the information, people 21 c a n request information. As part of processing a 22 r e quest for information, the department goes through

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 266 1 a n d searches our records for a response of documents. 2 S o it depends on what exactly they ask for. And then 3 w e send the documents back to the people who originally 4 s u bmitted it to us, and we seek their views. And the 5 D O E has regulations about exactly how this process 6 w o rks. But basically, we send it back to you and we 7 s a y what do you think on this document is confidential 8 b u siness information? And we set out the legal 9 s t andard for exactly how that all works. And we get 10 y o ur views. Ultimately, it is the Department's 11 d e termination of whether the information is 12 c o nfidential business information or not. But that's 13 b a sically how that process works. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Could we be labeling that to 15 t h e Department ahead of time? 16 MS. BARHYDT: You can, although the way our 17 r e gulations are written, we are going to send it back 18 t o you anyway. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh? 20 MS. BARHYDT: It's probably not important. 21 I t also reduces the burden for you, because if we never 22 r e ceive a request, you don't have to go through and

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 267 1 t h ink -- I mean you don't have to make any effort until 2 w e actually receive a request. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: So how long does that process 4 t a ke, typically? 5 MS. BARHYDT: When somebody files a request? 6 MR. BALLO: Three weeks, right? 7 MS. BARHYDT: That's the legal requirement, 8 y e s. 9 MR. STANOIK: That's a nominal. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: And so we have to respond in 11 t h at time? 12 MS. BARHYDT: I believe the regulations give 13 y o u seven days to respond. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. That's -- I guess I see 15 m o re that it would be a timesaver up front to be 16 n o tified than having to react in seven days when I 17 m i ght have people across the world I have to get to. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: I have to get lawyers. I have 20 t o get engineers and design centers. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So right now, I wanted to give 22 t h is some framework when we talk about some of this

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 268 1 i n formation. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. I understand. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Because it may be that the 4 i n formation we want isn't stuff that you don't already 5 p r ovide to AHRI or isn't already more or less public. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So we'll see. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 9 MS. BARHYDT: But are there other questions 10 a b out the process? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. I'm actually thinking 12 m o re about test reports. Well, I'm also thinking about 13 w h at we provide to AHRI too. There's stuff that's not 14

- - shouldn't be public. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Right. Yeah. I would think 16 t h e information that we talked about in the context of 17 t h e validation testing -- verification testing -- 18 w h atever we ended up calling it -- for the AEDMs, and 19 w h ere we said that manufacturers could submit 20 i n formation to us for testing, that -- I can see that 21 t h at might be . . . 22 So the basic pieces of information that we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 269 1 c o llect for all of the products are the product 2 e q uipment type. So that would be commercial 3 r e frigeration equipment or commercial HVAC at the 4 a b solute highest level. The product equipment class -- 5 t h ose are more the -- they are similar to the AEDM 6 v a lidation classes that we talked about, but it's -- in 7 t h e regulations it's each individual type that has a 8 d i fferent standard. So if there's a different 9 s t andard, that's a different equipment class. 10 The manufacturer's name and address. If the 11 p r oduct is privately label, the private labeler's name 12 a n d address. 13 The brand name, if it is branded separate 14 w i th a different name than the manufacturer's name. 15 The basic model number. The individual model 16 n u mbers within the basic model. 17 The status. Basically there's a place to say 18 t h at this is a new certification; this is an amended 19 c e rtification; this is something that I have 20 d i scontinued. So that's the status. 21 The test sample size. So if you use an AEDM, 22 w e 've been just having people put a one in there

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 270 1 b e cause it's not really based on testing. And that's 2 r e ally just a matter of having -- there's another place 3 w h ere you mark that you used an AEDM. So it's not 4 r e ally checking on that. 5 U.S. Customs and Border Protection Importer 6 I D Number, if applicable. Whether the certification is 7 b a sed on a test procedure waiver and the date of the 8 w a iver; whether the certification is based on Office of 9 H e arings and Appeals relief and the date, if that was 10 g r anted; and then whether the certification is based on 11 a n AEDM. 12 So those are the basic pieces of information 13 w e ask from everyone. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: So give me an example please of 15 w e ather certifications based on exemption relief from 16 . . . ? 17 MS. BARHYDT: So, for products that have 18 s t atutory standards, you can't get relief from 19 s t atutory standards. Where the standards were set by 20 r e gulation, there is a process in DOE's regulations for 21 a manufacturer to appeal to the Office of Hearings and 22 A p peals for relief from the standard. And they usually

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 271 1 s e t a new standard for that product. And I believe the 2 s t andard is you have to demonstrate that there is 3 s o mething different about your product that was not 4 c o nsidered in the Department's rulemaking -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay. 6 MS. BARHYDT: -- such that your product 7 c a nnot achieve the, like -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Intent of the -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: -- thermodynamics. It can't 10 a c tually achieve that standard. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 12 MR. SACHS: One example that was recent, 13 f a irly prominent, was application for waiver on the 14 b a sis of space constraints for split systems less than 15 t h ree times. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Right. 17 MALE SPEAKER: Like small duct high velocity. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Small duct high 19 v e locity. Yeah. 20 MR. AMRANE: No doubt. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Or VRF products also have -- 22 MR. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Yeah. The VRF. Yeah.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 272 1 E x actly. Okay. Got it. 2 MR. AMRANE: VRF was different. VRF was not 3 t h rough -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: It was a test run -- a test 5 p r ocedure waiver. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Test -- oh, that's right. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. That's why I just didn't 8 s e e the difference between them, but small duct high 9 v e locity. Okay. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So the test procedure 11 w a iver is giving you a different test procedure, the 12 s a me standard. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Yeah. 14 MS. BARHARDT: OHA (ph) relief is actually 15 g i ving you a different standard. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 18 MR. WHITWELL: What's an example of a 19 s t atutory standard? 20 MS. BARHYDT: A lot of your products have 21 s t atutory standards right now. 22 MS. AMRANE: It goes with where -- an act by

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 273 1 C o ngress. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 3 MS. AMRANE: Congress says much meet that 4 l e vel. 5 MR. WHITWELL: All right. All right. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 7 MR. WHITWELL: All right. 8 MR. FLY: So the basic model and the 9 i n dividual model number, those are defined by us? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Yep. 11 MR. FLY: And . . . 12 MS. BARHYDT: So individual model number is 13 w h atever you show to the consumers, and they can have 14 a s terisks. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 16 MR. FLY: Okay. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Basic model number, we have 18 s o me people who basically use the first five digits of 19 t h eir individual model number. We have some people who 20 j u st make up something entirely different. But it's 21 s o mething for your internal tracking so that you know 22 w h ich things you have grouped together.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 274 1 MR. FLY: It's the packing of the individual 2 m o del to the basic model that we call -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 4 MR. FLY: -- that we are going to serve by 5 t h e units, say energy efficiency. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 7 MR. FLY: Now, some of -- I mean, I have 8 p r oducts that have 100 characters in my model number. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Mmm-hmm. 10 MR. FLY: Can I truncate that, as long as I 11 h a ve covered an amount -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Like after some point it's just 13 a l l asterisks? 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 15 MR. FLY: Well, or can you accept any length 16 f i eld in there? I guess that's my question. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, yeah. We can take anything. 18 MR. FLY: Okay. 19 MS. BARHYDT: No. Seriously. If it will fit 20 i n the Excel cell, it will work. I don't know what 21 E x cel's character limit is. I don't know Excel. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: It's big. I was going to say

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 275 1 i t 's pretty long. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Within the cell, yeah. 3 MALE SPEAKER: It's at least 256, so. . . 4 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 6 MR. FLY: That's all right. I just wanted to 7 c l arification. But it could be all asterisk at some 8 p o int? 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 11 MR. AMRANE: That's right. Could be all 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 13 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we do have people who, 14 a f ter some point, it's just all asterisks, and they 15 j u st put a couple of asterisk at the end. I mean, at 16 t h at point we can figure it out as well. The key is 17 t h at, both for us, for other interested parties which 18 m i ght potentially be consumers -- 19 MR. FLY: But you could map it for -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Well, looking at it, if you can 21 l o ok at it and you can look at your product catalog and 22 s a y, oh, this is a certification for that; we are good.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 276 1 MR. KLEISS: Yeah. Similar to what we do 2 w i th identifying a basic model number, is there already 3 a provision, or will there be provision for identifying 4 w h at AEDM you would be using? 5 MS. BARHYDT: So that's one of the things -- 6 s o these are our basic requirements. The way we have 7 t a lked about AEDMs, I think we are going to want you to 8 s a y I used AEDM Alligator and AEDM Bear. 9 MR. KLEISS: Right. 10 MS. BARHYDT: But, that is not something that 11 w e have in our regulations right now. That would be 12 s o mething different. 13 MR. FLY: Could I use that last field for 14 t h at and put zero in, if you ask it for something? 15 MS. BARHYDT: I would think that you could 16 a c tually identify the AEDM in that field, but I would 17 h a ve to double-check with the programmers on how they 18 h a ve done that field. Because in the past, it's been a 19 Y or an N, yes or no; it was an AEDM or not. 20 MR. FLY: Okay. 21 MR. BAUMAN: These fields, are these by 22 d e fault public, or can somebody claim that some of this

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 277 1 s t uff is -- or, I don't even know if you have to claim 2 o r just submit it as private versus public? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Not all of this is public. 4 MR. BAUMAN: But some of it is automatically? 5 MS. BARHYDT: Some of it is, but not all of 6 i t . 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Private label, I think you 8 a l ready said was not. 9 MS. BARHYDT: The U.S. Customs and Border 10 P r otection Number may not be FOIA-able. We have not 11 h i storically released manufacturer name and address, 12 a l though we may hear opposing views in this area. 13 MR. BALLO: I think you would. 14 MR. EISNER: Would anybody at the table have 15 a problem with a release of any of the information on 16 t h is table? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it a person's name and the 18 m a nufacturer, or is it just the manufacturer's name and 19 t h e street address? 20 MS. BARHYDT: It's just the manufacturer's 21 n a me and street address. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Private label or is not

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 278 1 p u blished; correct? 2 MR. RIVEST: Other way around. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Other way around. We would 4 t e ll who the private labeler was and not the OEM. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Not the manufacturer. Okay. 6 MR. EISNER: Would release of this 7 i n formation be a problem for any of you? 8 MS. BARHYDT: Does that matter? Can we 9 r e lease manufacturer and private labeler and brand? 10 MR. MYERS: Not the manufacturer, but the 11 p r ivate label. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 13 MR. MYERS: If they want to represent 14 t h emselves as someone who produces products or has 15 p r oducts, they don't want to say, you know, I got it 16 f r om so-and-so. 17 MR. BALLO: Let me give an example of where 18 t h is has been important to us. I don't think it would 19 c o me for commercial products, but for residential 20 p r oducts, we have sent people out to stores looking to 21 m a ke sure that there are energy guide labels on things. 22 W e found -- especially initially -- a widespread non-

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 279 1 c o mpliance with the labeling requirements, and to trace 2 t h at back to the source of the problem. Is it the 3 r e tailer? Is it the manufacturer? It's helpful to 4 k n ow who really built that product and should have 5 s l apped a label on it. So that's part of the reason I 6 t h ink we wanted the ability to find out who 7 m a nufactured the product, obviously for commercial. 8 MR. MYERS: Yeah. That's a little -- you are 9 r i ght -- commercial is different. But even for 10 r e sidential, that manufacturer is -- whoever is 11 m a nufacturing that equipment is not in compliance with 12 t h e DOE requirements. And, if you relay that 13 i n formation to the DOE, they would either -- 14 MR. EISNER: Well FTC -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: Well that's FTC. 16 MR. MYERS: Well, as they say, it depends on 17 w h o the manufacturer was. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 19 MS. JAKOBS: But there's an option. You can 20 h a ve the private label on the energy guide label or the 21 m a nufacturer. It's an option. So if it's optional and 22 s o meone chose not to do that, then they would -- they

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 280 1 h a ve a reason. 2 MR. WHITWELL: You know, once you go after 3 w h oever is selling the brand -- 4 MS. JAKOBS: The nameplate doesn't always 5 h a ve the OEM. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: I think the name -- I think it 7 w o uld. 8 MS. JAKOBS: I don't think it does either. 9 MS. BARHYDT: No. 10 MR. HON: You can plain label it with someone 11 e l se's nameplate. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 13 MR. MYERS: In answer to your question, I 14 w o uld say we probably -- I personally don't have a 15 p r oblem, but we probably should just take the list and 16 l o ok at it and have discussions, and come back with a 17 m o re solid answer. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. I want -- 19 MR. MYERS: We have had customers before who 20 w o uld use plain labels for them we had a contractual 21 o b ligation not to disclose. So I would say that that's 22 p a rt of the risk factor. It would not bother us right

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 281 1 n o w, but it could come back up. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Right. Okay. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 4 MR. SACHS: I think that my interest in this 5 i s a slightly different take from Tim's, and he's the 6 l a wyer, but my interest is knowing who's responsible? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 8 MR. SACHS: And, to some extent, that depends 9 o n the contractual relationships. And if Sears is 10 t a king responsibility for the product, I don't care -- 11 I have no reason to know whether it was made by Goodman 12 o r Trane. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 14 MR. SACHS: If Sears is just selling that 15 u n it in their store, then I want to know who to 16 c o mplain to, if the label is missing or the thing 17 s p ills its guts the first day I use it. I look at it - 18

- Tim, is that satisfactory you -- wanting to know who 19 i s responsible for the product. 20 MR. BALLO: Yeah. I mean, part of it was we 21 d i dn't want to have to sue people to find out who is 22 r e sponsible.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 282 1 MR. SACHS: Yeah. So if we look at that as 2 b e ing disclosure of the responsible party -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Under our regulations the 4 r e sponsible party is the manufacturer. 5 MR. SACHS: Well, there's already some funny 6 s t uff about that, and there is a fair amount of 7 c o ntract manufacturing, particularly for niche 8 p r oducts. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 10 MR. SACHS: It's specified by somebody, but 11 a s sembled by somebody else completely. Who's the 12 m a nufacturer? 13 MS. BARHYDT: When we talked earlier about 14 t h e possibility of one person designing it but handing 15 i t or selling it or somehow transferring those designs 16 t o someone else, and having it come off the second 17 p e rson's assembly line, we talked about it's the person 18 w h ose assembly line it's coming off of that -- 19 MR. SACHS: Mmm-hmm. In that case the -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: -- that is the person 21 r e sponsible. 22 MR. SACHS: Because in that case that person

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 283 1 o w ns the intellectual property. That second person who 2 b o ught it bought the intellectual property, the 3 m a chinery, whatever. 4 MS. BARHYDT: They bought the whole kit and 5 c a boodle. 6 MR. HON: A question for you about it. What 7 h a ppens if it's just a manufacturer? We send some 8 d r awings to someone else to build; they don't have any 9 i d ea of the design criteria other than what we spell 10 o u t. 11 MS. BARHYDT: So -- 12 MR. HON: We are the designer and truly the 13 o n e who would dictate the efficiency by component 14 s p ecification, yet they would be putting it together. 15 MR. JOHNSON: But your name is on it. 16 MR. HON: It would be our -- you know, it 17 w o uld be under our own name. 18 MS. BARHYDT: They just become a contract 19 m a nufacturer. Exactly. 20 MR. HON: That's been a lot in the motor 21 b u siness. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 284 1 MR. JOHNSON: To me, whoever's name is on the 2 e q uipment, that's who's responsible. And that's the 3 w a y we would want it if we put a name on a piece of 4 e q uipment, even if it's not manufactured by us. We 5 w a nt the customers to come back to us. That's the way 6 w e would view that. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So you are saying that, for 8 H a rvey and Tim, the person who's responsible is the 9 p r ivate labeler? 10 MR. SACHS: Yes. 11 MS. BARHYDT: From your perspective? 12 MR. SACHS: From my perspective, it would be. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think it depends on 15 w h at it is. Like, if it's the energy guide tag being 16 o n it, certainly yes. But, if it's -- 17 MR. MYERS: You see I'm not familiar with 18 e n ergy tags. I don't get into that. 19 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, it's -- yeah -- but, I 20 m e an, if it's ensuring that every single unit they 21 b u ild is complying with the requirements, we don't have 22 p e ople in their factory making sure that they are doing

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 285 1 t h at; so I think in that case it's the manufacturer. 2 N o w we will do whatever we can to make sure that the 3 p r oduct is good, but in the end, I think we would want 4 t h e manufacturer to be doing the certification, if we 5 w e re in a situation where we were private labeling. 6 MR. MYERS: Yeah. I agree with you 7 c o mpletely. Our company has a customer that is a 8 m a rketing company, and they don't want anyone to know 9 t h at we are building their property. We build it lock, 10 s t ock -- we engineer it. We design it. We do all the 11 c e rtification. We do everything. We are the 12 r e sponsible party for everything there is to do with 13 t h at. They just take it and sell it. And they wouldn't 14 w a nt to -- and don't have the facilities or the 15 c a pability to take on any responsibility for that. For 16 t h em, it's just a buy/sell, but they want to have some 17 i d entity. And they may, at some point in the future, 18 b u ild a manufacturing facility and build their own 19 p r oducts, so they don't want that discontinuity. So 20 t h at's why I say we really have to think this through. 21 MR. EISNER: In a situation like that, isn't 22 t h e potential responsibility/liability handled by a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 286 1 c o ntract between the original equipment manufacturer 2 a n d the private labeler? I mean, is this an issue for 3 D O E to have -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: We don't usually, but you know 5 s o me of these are supplier relationships, and so I'm 6 n o t sure how much of a contract. I don't know. I'd 7 h a ve to ask. I don't know that they are all covered by 8 a pure, out and out legal contract. Some are supplier 9 r e lationships. 10 MR. MYERS: Right. In the example I was 11 g i ving, there is a very specific well-defined contract 12 t h at states we are responsible for all of that support. 13 W e even -- if somebody needs customer service, it's the 14 s a me people in our facility that man the calls, but 15 t h ere's a telephone number that is different. So they 16 c a ll in on that telephone number. The operator gives 17 t h at company's name and brought it to our people. I 18 m e an we do everything. And it's spelled out in the 19 c o ntract. But they don't all have to be like that. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. I just -- I'm not an 21 e x pert on all those contracts. I'd have to ask. I 22 r e ally don't --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 287 1 MR. EISNER: Or for what purpose do you want 2 t h at name? 3 MS BARHYDT: So, for us, the manufacturer 4 n a me is important because the statute makes the 5 m a nufacturer responsible for the compliance of the 6 p r oduct. But the private labeler is also important 7 b e cause the statute actually makes the private labeler 8 r e sponsible as well. And so we want to know who the 9 m a nufacturer is, as well as who the private labeler is. 10 W e do not require private labelers to certify 11 c o mpliance. We make it incumbent on the manufacturer 12 t o file the paperwork on behalf of their private 13 l a belers basically. 14 MR. EISNER: And did Congress in any way 15 i n dicate that they wanted the information to remain 16 p r ivate or secret? So you might have to divulge both 17 o f these under FOIA. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Although FOIA exemption four, 19 t o the extent that that relationship is contractually 20 c o nfidential business information, we can protect that. 21 MR. EISNER: All right. I don't want to get 22 t o o much into the weeds, but how can you make it

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 288 1 c o nfidential business information, if Congress requires 2 t h at it be provided to you? Why is it confidential 3 b u siness information? 4 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure I understand the 5 q u estion. 6 MR. EISNER: Confidential business is a FOIA 7 t e rm. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 9 MR. EISNER: Congress has mandated that you 10 c o llect that information, and no way indicated it was 11 p r ivate. So aren't they overriding? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Right, but that doesn't waive 13 t h e exemption four. 14 MR. EISNER: Pardon? 15 MS. BARHYDT: That doesn't waive exemption 16 f o ur. 17 MR. EISNER: I'm not quite sure how a name 18 c a n be confidential business information. 19 MS. BARHYDT: It's the relationship between 20 t h e manufacturer and the private labeler. 21 MR. MYERS: Could I ask a quick question 22 s i nce we are right at 3:00 o'clock and already

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 289 1 b e ginning to lose some people? Are we -- is everything 2 s q uare for us to make reservations and rooms and that 3 s o rt of thing or the next two meetings, the next three 4 m e etings, non- refundable? 5 MR. DOPPEL: Do we know where the next meeting 6 i s going to be? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 8 MR. EISNER: All the remaining meetings are 9 D O E. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, yeah. We got -- we 11 h a ve a notice drafted that's going to get published 12 h e re in the next couple years. 13 MR. DOPPEL: Is there a back door you can let 14 u s in? 15 MS. BARHYDT: No. They closed all the other 16 e n trances as a result of sequestration. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So 18 MR. EISNER: The question about the July 18? 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: July 1st and -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: All the employee entrances are 21 c l osed. 22 MR. EISNER: August 7 and July 18 were

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 290 1 q u estion marked. 2 MR. SACHS: 950 L'Enfant Plaza -- is that 3 D O E's? 4 MR. EISNER: Everything else was DOE on the 5 c a lendar I have. 6 MS. BARHYDT: No. It's pretty much the same, 7 s e curity screening. You have to go through the full 8 m e tal detector, everything. 9 MR. HURST: It has so much confidential 10 i n formation about ERE. 11 MS. BARHYDT: They are not the only ones in 12 t h at building. 13 MR. AMRANE: I mean, if you like the HOI 14 r o om, and if it's available, we can have the meeting 15 h e re. But that's up to you. 16 MS. BARHYDT: I appreciate that. I think 17 t h ey have already got it all reserved. 18 MR. SACHS: So we are being thrown back to an 19 a s needed back-up basis? It shows the respect DOE has 20 f o r employees. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. 22 MR. EISNER: At least we've got Walter over

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 291 1 t h ere. 2 MR. AMRANE: Yes, you have Walter. You have 3 c o ffee? 4 MR. SACHS: Well, we are struggling in our 5 p r ofit. 6 MR. EISNER: Guys, here are the buildings. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So June 1st and 2nd, 8E-089 8 D O E building, Forrestal Building. July 17th and 18th 9 8 E -089, the first day, GH-035 the second day. 10 MR. MYERS: Are those in the same building? 11 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it's all in Forrestal. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the ground floor is next 13 t o the Dunkin Donuts over there. 14 MR. SACHS: We might as well have our 15 m e etings in the line, then. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: July 31st and August 1st, 8E17 8 0 9. August 7 and 8. August 7th is still a TBD on the 18 r o om, but August 8 is confirmed at DOE 8E-809. And the 19 s a me with August 25th and 27th, 8E-809. 20 MR. MYERS: What was that -- the date you 21 j u st said? 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: The 26th and 27th of August.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 292 1 MS. BARHYDT: 27th. 2 MR. BAUMAN: That is or will be updated on 3 t h e SharePoint or -- 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. We'll put out a -- 5 a c tually this has to go in the Federal Register Notice 6 w i th the dates. 7 MR. BAUMAN: I gotcha. 8 MR. MYERS: There was not a 21st and 22nd? 9 MR. EISNER: August -- no meeting on August 10 2 1 st and 22nd. 11 MR. MYERS: Okay. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Did you have a 27th? 13 MR. BAUMAN: Thanks for hosting today, 14 F r ank. 15 MR. MYERS: Sure. 16 MR. BAUMAN: Thank you. 17 MR. EISNER: Anytime. So the argument is 18 t h at divulging the name of a private labeler would -- 19 o r competitive information would hurt them? 20 MS. BARHYDT: No. Divulging the name of the 21 m a nufacturer would divulge confidential information. 22 T h e statute actually defines private labeler as a party

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 293 1 w h o - actually, let me look at this. 2 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. Do you want this 3 o n record? 4 MS. BARHYDT: Hmm? 5 COURT REPORTER: Do you want this on record? 6 MS. BARHYDT: No. You can close it. 7 MR. EISNER: Sorry. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Adjourned. 9 (Whereupon, at 3:05 p.m., the Appliance 10 Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory 11 Committee Meeting was adjourned.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 06-11-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 10 interest in this proceeding. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 I, WENDY SARDINA, hereby certify that I am 3 not the Court Reporter who reported the following 4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 8 proceeding. 9 10 11 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not 3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 8 proceeding. 9 10 11 12

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 I, LISA SIKES, hereby certify that I am not 3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 8 proceeding. 9 10 11 12**:J~** \;3 Date 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 LISA SIKES Transcriptionist

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1 1 15:5 1.2 73:11 10 37:12 108:20 112:7 100 37:8 103:18 106:6 274:8 10-minute 109:13 10-ton 104:12 11 1:11 11:30 109:22 110:1,2,4,7,8,10, 11,12 11:33 161:1 11:45 110:5 12 109:14 12:00 109:17 12:30 160:22 125 111:19 112:6,7,15 13 109:14 141:5 14 131:10 134:16 135:8 136:2,16 15 116:11 1500 183:1,9,20 16 131:10 135:8,9,12,13,14 ,16 136:16 17 138:19,21 175 77:16 17th 291:8 18 289:18,22 18th 291:8 1970s 31:21 1st 94:16 289:19 291:7,16 2 20 38:2 69:1 74:15 82:22 83:5 92:20 104:11 105:3 108:22 115:8 154:5 2013 1:11 2015 207:16 20-ton 78:20 210/240 203:13 2111 1:7 21st 292:8,10 22nd 292:8,10 23 52:9 24 146:20 149:6 152:17 25 82:3 83:6 103:20,22 106:5 152:18,19 161:10 256 275:3 25th 291:19 26 153:2 26th 241:8 291:22 27th 291:19,22 292:1,12 28 158:2 29 158:2 2-horsepower 38:3 2nd 291:7 3 3 18:22 19:2 74:12 96:11 97:4 140:21 141:3 145:10,11 146:2,3,6,9,10,1 4,15 3:00 109:19 242:9 288:22 3:05 293:9 30 72:15 73:12 175:18 260:5 300 77:11 78:19,20,21 86:18,19 147:6 184:7 31 131:10 134:17 136:3 31-inch 136:20 137:1 31st 291:16 34 175:19 35 14:10,12,21 74:22 75:2 364.60-type 52:19 4 4 73:9,12 40 93:6,13 42 135:8,9,12,13,16 ,17 136:16 429.12 262:11 429.14 262:13 429.54 262:14 431 226:14,20 431.66 228:19 229:15 45 74:22 75:2 471 227:3 5 5 37:13 73:9,12 82:2,11 175:18 50 37:12 93:5,13 106:5 180:16 500 1:8 112:8 114:16 500,000 78:7 505 82:13 555 121:17 124:7 555S 124:7 555S-rated 121:17 5-ton 78:21 6 6 44:17,19 45:6 73:12 60 180:16 60-foot 122:2 62.1 44:21 45:13 63 74:12 92:21 93:8 63-ton 108:22 65 82:13 196:17,18,19,22 197:11,13 65,000 196:9 203:10,12 66 226:14,20 7 7 44:17 45:6,17 289:22 291:17 70s 32:2 75 37:8 106:5 760 196:9

### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 232:10 269:10,12 277:11,19,21 addressed 41:11 93:20 97:14 128:8 221:16 253:16 addressing 33:9 97:8 205:1 adds 12:19 73:5 ADEM 221:3 adjacent 52:3 adjourned 293:8,11 adjudicatory 223:16 adjust 18:19 81:9 98:14 176:8 administrative 223:16 adopted 117:7 adopting 20:9 Advisory 1:4 293:10 advocating 224:18 AEDM 205:22 206:6 216:1,2,3,10,11, 13 218:2,6,12 219:8,11,22 220:8,9,18,20 222:1,16 223:4 231:13 232:19 241:1,4,17 242:12 243:8,9 250:11 254:5 269:5,21 270:3,11 276:4,8,16,19 AEDMs 232:9,10 241:16 268:18 276:7 affect 97:13 157:8 190:22 191:11 208:5 226:8 affected 236:1 afternoon 147:11 against 11:17 51:10 254:9 agency 33:18,20 249:1,8 aging 74:9 ago 69:16 170:9 216:20 218:14 232:8 247:21 agonizing 5:18 agreed 92:1 241:12 242:13,19,20 254:21 agreement

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62:16 75:19 79:19 138:12,13 142:4 150:2 155:4,18,19 156:17 165:9 180:14 206:20 224:18 230:2 231:15 233:14 294:7 295:2 296:2 297:2 ambient 149:2 226:21 ameliorable 9:3 amended 269:18 amendment

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 apply 96:15 147:7 185:8 199:9 208:22 228:19 231:12 applying 37:20 136:4 appreciate 120:6 221:19 227:13 250:3 290:16 apprehension 245:21 approach 31:6 142:9 186:2 approaches 9:6 114:10 appropriate 16:6 31:22 61:15 79:12 121:4 approval 123:17 approve 242:15 249:5 architects 14:10 167:19 architectural 124:6 134:5 area 12:2 59:9 118:6 169:11 178:4 205:10 206:15 226:9,16 231:3,19 277:12 areas 140:9 aren't 52:6 53:15 119:22 150:4 152:4,5 232:14 288:11 argument 31:16 292:17 Aris 3:2 89:15 Arlington 1:9 arranged 47:3 arrangement 262:3 artificially 157:18 ASHRAE 16:12 65:11 77:9 93:7,9 197:5 209:16,17 Asia 52:7,22 aspect 24:19 aspects 72:5 247:12,18 ASRAC 41:8 109:20 241:13 242:12,14,15 243:17 244:3 250:21 assembled 282:11 assembly 49:17 71:13,15 83:16 111:15 121:1 282:17,18 assigned 250:22 associated 100:10,12 assume 166:8 232:21 assuming 48:18 138:12,13 232:7 assumptions 246:4 assurance 165:7 asterisk 275:7,15 asterisks 273:14 274:13 275:14 Atlanta 70:2 147:11 attaching 244:13 attachment 243:11 attenuation 113:3 116:17 117:17 attenuator 14:2 50:7 attenuators 54:1 110:17,19 attitudes 245:14 254:20 August 244:14 246:21 248:5,13,19 256:20 289:22 291:16,17,18,19, 22 292:9 automatic 223:19 automatically 83:16 210:5 277:4 auxiliary 80:6 available 223:10 290:14 average 106:6 avoid 245:2 avoidance 238:10 aware 152:11 222:19 away 9:1 46:16 65:8 101:22 120:2 144:10 162:7 230:10 245:13 awful 54:19 axis 81:1 B backfl ow 121:15 background 242:21

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120:17 121:20 123:10 124:15 125:6,14 126:1,4,11,15,18 ,21 127:18,22 128:4 130:8,12,15,20 131:1,4,7,13,16, 21 133:22 134:18 137:9,19 138:8 142:10 144:21 145:13,16 147:2,5,8 148:7,18 149:9,13 150:6,9 152:13 154:2 159:12 161:16 162:14 163:6,13 164:3,7,12,16 165:10,13,15 172:20 173:9,14,18 175:2,15,21 176:2,7,12,17,19 177:7 178:1,3,19 179:7 180:4,6 181:10,14,22 182:3,5 183:18 188:13 189:7,15,17,21 190:3 192:5 195:7,10,12 198:14,16,21 199:1,5,10,15 202:22 203:8,18 204:2,7,10,17 205:2,6,14,17,20 206:17 207:3,13 208:10,16 209:2 210:15,19,22 211:16 212:8,12,16,21 213:2,9,13,16,19 214:2,9,16,18 216:6,11,15 217:22 219:5,9,12,18,21 220:6,10,16 221:15,19 222:10,16,21 223:6,11,22 224:9,14,18 225:3,9,13 226:12 227:15 228:5,22 229:8,12,21 230:5,12,18,20 231:7,9,16,21 232:18 233:2,6,13,15 234:5,9,14,16,19 236:5 237:13 238:13,21 239:4,6,16,20 240:1,5,10,22 241:3,6,9,15,19 242:1 246:9,22 247:4,9 251:19 252:14,20 253:2,5,22 258:9 261:20 264:13 266:16,20 267:5,7,12,18,21 268:3,7,9,15 270:17 271:6,9 272:4,10,20 273:10,12,17 274:3,6,9,12,17, 19 275:4,10,13,20 276:5,10,15 277:3,5,9,20 278:3,8,12 279:15,18 280:9,12,18 281:2,7 282:3,9,13,20 283:4,11,18,22 284:7,11,13 287:3,18 288:4,8,12,15,19 289:15,20 290:6,11,16,21 291:11 292:1,20 293:4,6,8 barometric 15:13 83:13,15 84:9 85:19 86:1 87:4 88:4,15 187:4 barred 186:5 barrier 144:3 Bart 187:6 base 149:14 baseball 189:1 based 18:22 35:14 56:13 78:16 151:18 205:22 211:19 219:1 220:17 231:1,2 246:5 247:19 250:2 254:16 270:1,7,8,10,15 basic 4:19 25:15 42:14 44:5 65:3 72:22 120:4 135:5 139:18 142:13 144:9 164:21 165:5 176:21 177:21 178:1,3,5,7 182:21 183:20 189:8 191:13 192:4 198:3,16,17 202:1,7,8 203:6 204:3 205:18,20,21 206:1,8,19 207:2 208:1 211:9,15,17 212:8,11,22 214:2

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 214:8,10,17 220:8 229:19 230:17 231:22 232:21 234:15,18 249:11 250:2 255:4 258:12,17 276:21 277:4 292:2,7,13,16 Bear 276:8 beat 251:7 become 30:8 117:10,12 283:18 becomes 37:17 238:10 becoming 118:1 217:12 Beever 58:8 beg 236:9 begin 242:17 259:4 beginning 193:4 243:10 289:1 behalf 262:1,18 287:12 behaving 107:8 behind 39:12 58:4 157:9 243:20 believe 152:3 173:12,16 181:12 187:12 191:18 221:1 235:15 248:7,9 249:6 251:4 252:4 255:1 267:12 271:1 belongs 62:10 belt 47:5 benefit 64:3,5 78:15 103:9,13 172:5 181:4 Benefits 168:10 best 9:3 69:12 98:10 112:7 257:18 263:20 better 16:12,21 22:3 46:14 47:8 70:3 80:19 104:3 105:8 112:8 116:19 121:13 124:3 156:17 168:11,12 194:16 197:4 209:4 211:3 215:8 259:19 beverages 235:9 beyond 251:4 bigger 10:9 55:16 67:20 69:7 76:11 81:18,19 85:18 93:4 114:14 119:3 237:21 bit 29:5 30:11 39:16 49:14 50:1 72:5 77:2 97:9 102:9 104:6 130:6 150:2 151:19 155:13 156:9,16 176:8 177:12 182:19 185:19 187:17 192:8 194:10 242:20 248:13 257:10 blade 54:5 blah 192:20 blanket 9:22 bleeding 101:8,17,18 blenders 126:21,22 bless 96:8 blow 65:8 78:1 87:5 186:16 blower 75:7,9 blowers 9:17 70:13 71:12 186:14 Blvd 1:7 board 72:4 115:13 148:12 Bob 180:10 boiler 65:13 148:2 160:10 222:13 boilers 191:3 bolt 249:12 bolted 186:7 boom 106:8 Border 270:5 277:9 borrow 184:4 boss 123:3 bother 280:22 bottom 69:11,12 186:16 bought 283:2,4 box 68:21 69:9,10,11,13 178:4 187:15,20 206:22 brand 265:2,5 269:13 278:9 280:3 branded 269:13 break 72:1 109:14,16

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 284:21 285:9,18 builder 28:22 building 8:15 12:2 16:14,15,17 17:6 27:3 30:14,21 34:9 51:11 64:11 66:14 75:4 80:11 83:21 84:4,11 86:12,15,20 87:3,15 90:9 94:12 111:17 117:2 121:8,21 124:5,6 136:11,12 159:14 160:9 168:10 285:9 290:12 291:8,10 buildings 52:7,14,15 84:5 86:18,21 93:4 112:13 291:6 builds 39:21 68:7 built 52:15 72:14 73:17 136:12 150:20 210:1 229:6 235:6 279:4 built-up 52:20 bullet 251:16 254:19 256:13,15 258:21 261:7 bunch 24:11 32:3,4 119:2 bundled 6:10 burden 218:18 263:13 266:21 burn 125:5 190:15,18 business 74:9 167:13 173:20 193:11 266:8,12 283:21 287:20 288:1,3,6,18 bust 164:2 buy 43:14 48:18 74:1,3 86:2,4 88:21 260:17 buy/sell 285:16 buying 107:17 bypass 68:14,19 96:3 98:14 100:8 107:12 119:14 157:14,17 bypassing 104:1 C cabinet 113:20 130:3 153:4 206:16 226:17 234:3 237:18 cabinets 188:22 204:12 237:20 cables 203:1 caboodle 283:5 caf 31:5 calculate 231:4 calculation 151:1 calendar 290:5 California 17:7 45:17 63:7 94:14 Canada 191:7,8 capability 22:1,2 189:3 285:15 capable 123:16 178:10 capacities 6:19 69:8 capacitors 5:19 148:8 capacity 34:18 57:20 66:11 72:4 99:1,6,14,19 102:8 106:10 151:13 157:17 158:5 168:10 170:6 176:9 182:20,22 183:7,8 200:10 203:5 265:12,14 Capital 1:18 captivity 132:8 capture 64:2 72:6 77:3 98:21 109:11 193:21 209:10 211:6 captured 209:7 card 33:5 cardboard 84:21 cards 41:21 care 69:22 74:9 193:1 195:7 281:10 careful 97:17 133:9 Carrier 3:15 180:10 case 10:16 16:3 20:22 51:3 56:18 73:16 91:20 94:11 115:19 121:16 129:8 191:3 204:21 209:13 213:2 215:21 230:10,22 231:5,19 263:1 282:19,22 285:1 case-by-case

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 CERTIFICATE 294:1 295:1 296:1 297:1 certification 4:21 31:3 105:21 215:7 238:17 261:21,22 262:8,16,20 263:22 264:7,22 269:18,19 270:6,8,10 275:22 285:4,11 certifications 241:11 270:15 certified 264:3,21 certify 202:4,5 287:10 294:4 295:2 296:2 297:2 cetera 36:21 CFM 26:5 71:21 80:5 CFR 205:11 262:11 chance 46:6 210:1 change 10:11,13,18 13:7,8 24:6 26:11 33:18 44:2 55:18,20 61:3,5,7,9,11 63:17 68:6 76:14 78:11 106:12,14,17 118:11 131:15 134:14,19 137:11 144:6 145:19 159:22 181:17 184:9 197:15 207:8,9,11 209:17 223:18 228:2 232:18 233:4 264:8,10 changed 24:10 25:12,17,19 64:15 changes 30:1 33:21 50:12 107:5 179:2,3 207:16 232:19 233:10 240:4 changing 33:4 62:4 64:1 112:19 chapters 132:2 character 274:21 characteristic 213:12 characteristics 208:5 212:3 226:8 characterize 55:9 58:20 73:19,20 92:3 100:7 124:13 characterized 72:10 characters 274:8 Charles 2:16 Charlie 207:10 209:16 233:18 236:13 237:16 238:5 251:1 chart 10:3 242:19 257:14,15 charts 81:20 chasses 136:8,11,13 check 45:18 71:8 165:22 checking 147:8 270:4 chemical 126:3 chilled 121:11 chimed 143:12 choices 219:8 choose 57:6 72:3 209:13 264:7 chooses 219:10 chopped 217:1 chose 210:20 279:22 chunk 222:12 circle 96:5 circuit 99:12,22 100:2,4 104:11,13 159:11 circuits 105:4 circulation 139:13 circumvent 236:17 237:7 City 140:9,10 claim 13:17 21:2 32:13 208:13 210:21 211:1,9 276:22 277:1 claiming 14:2 claims 17:20 18:2 214:22 clarification 24:3 158:22 181:15 204:14 275:7 clarified 228:2 clarify 84:22 86:5 175:4 226:18 227:21 249:12 clarity 232:16 class 18:18 19:5 51:9 56:16 61:20 62:10,19 63:19 64:18 128:9,12 129:5,17 153:12,15 155:12 212:11 253:4 269:4,9 classes 31:2 63:18 64:20 70:5 211:18,19 212:9 269:6 classifications 211:14 classroom 14:11,12 186:7 clear 15:1 94:14 120:20 214:18 252:11 Cleaver-Brooks 3:3 Climate 218:7 ClimateMaster 165:21 ClimateMasters 3:16 climates 127:2 clipping 239:11 close 101:14 121:1 209:20 210:4,7 259:8 293:6 closed 83:17 100:9 107:11 160:5,9 207:17 289:15,21 closer 100:8 114:19 closest 28:7 closing 107:15

### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 141:10,11 filters 23:11,17 24:12 25:6,14 26:9,11,21 34:11 41:10 42:13,16,22 43:9,18 47:20 48:3,9,13,20 141:7 filtration 22:21 43:16,22 44:5 96:5 119:1,5 140:19 144:15,17,19,22 fin 148:7 final 42:3 102:7 245:2 248:18 252:18 finalized 170:10 financial 294:9 fine 23:2 47:13 56:20 60:5 76:14 86:7 110:2 112:1 128:3 180:4 185:17 206:11 254:17 261:14 fingers 166:16 finish 110:21 130:10 finished 177:11 226:1 fire 122:11 123:8,19,22 238:3 fire/smoke 121:7,18 124:4 fire/smoke/ isolation 120:16 firewall 122:12 firm 39:8,13,18 first 49:9 64:15 133:12 157:13 190:16,21 193:19 215:7 220:21 242:11 247:20 253:6 256:18 273:18 281:17 291:9 fit 28:17 57:5 68:21 224:5 274:19 fits 244:7 fittings 149:10,11 150:19 five 41:20 58:20 92:9,11 94:4 109:8 116:11 124:14 136:19 137:2 138:3,4,7 139:3 156:15 175:9 216:14 257:14 273:18 five-ton 115:4 fix 9:21 fixed 11:20 230:22 231:4,19 fixture 124:19 Fixtures 3:6 flagged 57:10 flexible 77:22 flip 210:8 flippant 72:14 floor 52:10,12,13 122:4 162:22 291:12 floors 52:9 flow 98:18 99:9 107:11 flushed 250:6 Fly 2:14 7:11,19 8:1,3,6,21 10:6 12:8 14:13,16 18:2,14 19:4,13,16,19 20:2,4,6 25:1,3,10 26:14,18 28:11,14,16 29:17 30:7,9 33:22 34:7,22 37:6,11,16 38:1,6,9,12,16 40:6 47:16,18 48:11,14 51:20 52:4,21 53:4 54:4,18,22 55:21 56:5 59:13,16 60:8,15 61:9,13 62:3,6,13 63:4,12 64:4,10,22 65:5,19,21 66:6,10,13,21 67:1,5 68:1,12,16,18 69:7 72:8,13,20 73:2,9,14,20,22 74:10,17,21 75:1,8,18,20 76:2 77:22 78:13 80:1,5,10,13,17 82:5,12,19 83:12 84:1 85:16,18 86:17 87:16,21 88:8,12 89:22 90:5,20 91:1,5,9,13,17,2 1 92:1,5,8,11,19,2 2 93:5,8 94:9 95:20 96:19 98:22

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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happier 193:3 255:13 happy 208:15 hard 27:11,17 122:2 129:6 246:3 255:7 257:7 harder 118:20 120:12 hardly 105:10 201:16 Hardware 167:17 harm 217:16 Harvey 3:8 9:7 15:16 33:2 63:19 133:9 142:9 159:12 164:20 188:15 209:12 245:8,12 284:8 hate 63:5 haven't 10:1 103:7 170:3 204:3 215:8 254:8 255:8 259:7 having 4:17 8:17 35:13 50:14 87:22 88:1 94:19 118:19 128:6,12 133:18 164:9 194:4 215:16 226:3,17 230:8 232:8,19 238:12 256:6 264:21 267:16 269:22 270:2 282:16 head 151:6 167:7 249:2 heading 177:20,21 178:6

### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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hour 160:19,20 260:15 hours 207:17 house 95:15 117:2 household 228:11 houses 82:16 Houston 70:2 How's 100:5 HRI 170:1,5 HTD 244:2 huge 38:2 73:12 130:6 217:2 228:12 Huh 190:5 196:13 200:5 humid 60:8,22 humidity 8:16 60:20 64:12 hundreds 109:3 hungry 110:1 Hunt 17:10 44:16 60:10 68:13,17 69:3,6 70:20 71:3,6,8 94:14,20 132:19,22 133:4,6 168:19,20 Hurst 2:18 51:7 290:9 hurt 201:1 292:19 hurts 139:14 Hussmann 3:10 HVAC 208:20 269:3 hydraulic 226:22 228:8,20 229:1

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 non 225:1 278:22 289:4 non-compliant 89:12 non-ducted 201:22 none 128:10,17,21 181:16 184:13 199:8,10,11,14 non-geothermal 153:22 160:11 nor 294:8 normal 39:7 66:19 81:9 98:18 112:4 131:9 normalize 10:8 151:9 normalized 151:4 normally 9:1,2 25:11 48:22 53:15 54:7,10 134:16 136:15 note 256:3 notes 70:17 295:5 296:5 297:5 nothing 14:4 21:7 61:14 127:16 128:12 150:1 notice 242:17 289:11 292:5 notified 267:16 notify 264:9 notion 211:20 nowhere 115:6 nuts 20:19 31:14 O objecting 185:18 obligation 280:21 observer 79:17 obvious 20:11 260:6 obviousl y 41:1 51:20 101:3 155:14 279:7 occasion 238:6 occurred 260:5 o'clock 288:22 octave 111:20 OEM 278:4 280:5 offer 6:19 35:20 105:10,11 201:18 212:13 offered 262:4 offering 212:15 213:17,20 office 156:8 159:1 177:6 260:14 270:8,21 official 225:2 offset 9:11 oh 26:2 43:17 44:12 79:5 93:6,15 94:4 96:12 97:6 102:13 113:12 130:15 131:21 133:22 147:2 149:8,12 154:6 156:4 157:4 169:7 175:15 187:12 190:7 199:4 202:14,22 205:8 225:19 235:5 236:12 238:21 241:3 253:10 266:19 271:5 272:6 274:17 275:22 290:21 OHA 272:14 old 75:18 131:15 201:16 238:6 OM 198:12 one-inch 43:10 44:15 47:5 one-off 30:12 one-offs 143:15 ones 21:1 53:17 69:5 75:4 110:15 167:15 180:13 189:2 229:22 290:11 ongoing 258:2 online 58:7 261:21 262:6 onto 70:15 open 60:9 83:18 84:6,11,13,17 87:4,5 121:1 159:19 160:12 162:1 183:10 198:14 207:13,21 215:9 232:4,6 233:1 opening 33:5 89:20,22 121:2 openings 122:7 opera 117:2 operable 207:1 operate 9:2 25:4 87:17 operated 34:14 35:5 55:15 operates 28:17 91:8

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6:9,11,12 7:5 17:14 31:19 41:14 43:22 49:6,10,11,22 63:18 79:7 96:6 97:13,14 131:17 132:14 134:4,7 141:6 151:22 156:22 157:1,6 161:21 162:2,20 163:4,21,22 164:8 166:1 168:7 184:9,10,16 210:21 229:9 235:17 order 9:11 14:11,17 17:5 27:20 28:21 32:8 37:21 57:19 79:7 132:9 137:5 144:9 166:13 224:4,7 ordered 31:13 133:3 243:9 ordering 28:20 orders 167:2 ore 68:3 206:12 organisms 124:21 orifice 91:2 original 176:10 179:1 182:4 235:15 242:22 250:12 286:1 originally 228:7 232:2 252:2 266:3 orphans 203:13,15,19 others 6:3 32:7 60:4 121:13 152:14 245:8 257:11 260:7 otherwise 207:22 220:19 ought 20:14 83:8 122:11 186:18 243:3 ours 56:17 57:3 141:12 185:9 ourselves 100:22 136:2 outdoor 49:22 51:13 65:8 94:10 98:18 102:2 output 6:20 193:2,4 202:20 outside 20:15 30:3 50:6 52:1 53:7,8 72:21 83:19 84:2,3,8 86:12 87:18 91:10,15 93:3,12 95:10,15,16 102:4 113:8 116:17 118:15 119:7 126:22 127:1 137:12 256:7 outstanding 198:18 238:19 overall 20:16 overcome 138:22 overcooling 8:11 64:11 overriding 288:11 oversized 9:17 70:13 71:12 72:3 owns 283:1 oxymoron 194:22 P

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 potentially 63:18 199:16 275:18 potentials 237:1 power 10:8 37:9 54:12 56:5,13 65:17,19 85:18 94:19 103:18,22 138:22 139:2,7,14 151:13 233:21 234:1 236:17 237:7 powered 54:11 83:14 86:10,16 88:2,11 89:16 90:8 92:3 95:3,7 187:5 practical 76:15,22 77:4 practically 76:16 practice 6:22 84:20 pre 23:14,15 70:22 preamble 214:12,14 precedence 21:19 22:6 precise 100:4 predict 245:7,16 257:22 predominantly 238:8 preference 10:12 58:12,15 preferred 88:16 111:12 pre-filter 48:9 pregnant 194:10 prepared 49:16 present 18:12 132:11 252:4 press 17:13 pressure 20:12 21:21 23:16 26:21 47:5 49:18 55:19,21 63:10 67:6 71:15,22 73:7 76:18 79:8 81:3 82:22 84:11 86:22 87:1 91:2 98:16 100:12 107:21 108:1 114:21,22 118:18,19 119:2 127:9,14,15 128:7 137:12 138:1 149:21 150:22 151:7,12 153:6 157:22 164:15,16,18,22 165:2 166:11 167:18 180:20 181:1,2 236:8,10 pressure-drop 167:14 pressurize 87:3 pretty 23:16 36:18 58:21 69:21 84:16 85:11 140:19 148:12 164:4 167:18 209:12 213:20 240:5 275:1 290:6 prevalence 92:18 93:18 108:3,7 prevalent 92:19,21 prevent 8:11 158:13 previous 244:6

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 193:14 223:14 proceed 126:9 proceeding 294:3,4,5,7,9,10 295:4,5,8 296:4,5,8 297:4,5,8 proceedings 161:1 process 32:16 48:5 104:7,15 154:1,2 239:10,13 247:15 257:16 266:5,13 267:3 268:10 270:20 processed 223:14 processing 265:21 produces 278:14 producing 83:4 product 3:3 6:20 10:14 13:6 18:5,18 19:5 20:1,16 23:6,8 35:3,5,15 39:13 56:16 57:7,8 61:20 62:10,19,22 63:18 64:18,20 65:3,4 70:5 89:11 109:1,6 128:9,12 129:5,17 133:18 145:22 153:12,14 155:12 168:4 176:6 177:12 189:22 209:1 214:5 215:19 217:4 218:11 219:17 220:7 224:2,20 234:21 253:4 262:21 264:1,5 269:1,4,11 271:1,3,6 275:21 279:4,7 281:10,19 285:3 287:6 productive 250:7 products 2:14 3:13 30:10 43:15 56:16 58:22 96:18,20 97:16,22 109:1 130:19 170:13 171:22 184:11 199:20 218:19,20 219:3,13 222:22 228:9,13 238:14 262:11 264:6,20,21 265:10 269:1 270:17 271:21 272:20 274:8 278:14,15,19,20 282:8 285:19 product-specific 262:13 profit 291:5 program 42:21 105:21 157:7 183:1,2 programmers 276:17 progress 241:20 242:5 244:15 245:15 248:7,9,11,22 progressing 218:17 prohibition 212:16 project 40:8 243:1 244:14 251:1 prominent 271:13 promote 17:17 propane 128:6 229:6 proper 38:14 properly 84:7 88:14 property 283:1,2 285:9 proposal 192:16 proposals 189:17 propose 33:21 proposed 133:10 prosecute 224:21 225:3 Prosecution 168:5 protect 166:15 287:20 protection 20:4,5 146:12 159:10,13 270:5 277:10 protective 189:3 proud 177:17 provide 20:1 53:21 65:7 77:13 79:11 102:9 105:5 159:10 229:16,17 240:10 262:9 265:8 268:5,13 provided 49:19,21 57:21,22 71:21 98:20 113:22 114:1,2 116:2 136:19 159:9 214:7 262:10 288:2

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180:17 203:7 221:2 pumping 52:10 pumps 149:9,11 150:18 151:22 152:2 154:14 156:10,14 178:8,10 218:8 punt 4:11 purchased 30:18 pure 286:8 purification 132:9 purpose 86:17 98:22 127:16 247:14 287:1 purposely 174:14 purposes 4:21 215:13 push 13:9 68:4 250:7 pushed 40:16 246:4 puts 64:12 putting 37:1 151:6 153:5 158:2 167:13 215:3 283:14 Pvi 3:5 17:11 45:19 Q Q-mide 263:1 qualif ies 118:17 quality 159:20,21 quantif ied 111:20 quantify 108:4 quantifying 112:2 quantity 25:22 31:10,11 quarter 55:22 86:22 87:3 question 17:12 24:4 58:9 62:21 88:21 102:13 113:17 116:19 117:3 118:9 128:20 129:11 132:10 133:2 159:12 180:9 185:21 188:10,17 191:14 205:2 206:12 207:21 214:11 219:6 223:9 233:12,17 236:19 237:8 255:15,21 259:4 274:16 280:13 283:6 288:5,21 289:18 290:1 questions 88:14 156:13 204:13 232:13 236:7 261:16 268:9 quick 209:12 288:21 quicker 251:11 quickly 5:1 11:6 223:15 240:20 243:3 quiet 50:8 quieter 168:13 quit 119:19 quite 77:2 92:19,21 103:18 112:14 151:19 187:17 226:22 288:17 quote 202:10

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 139:14 144:11 147:15,22 148:17 169:19 170:1,3 171:3 185:9 191:15 214:11 215:2 228:2 238:11 254:8 258:5 260:3 270:1,2,4 279:4 285:20 286:22 reason 9:4 67:17 77:10 157:8 166:4 167:13 193:6 228:8 279:5 280:1 281:11 reasonable 137:5 261:5,6 reasonably 127:8 reasons 115:1 recall 232:8 receive 266:22 267:2 received 209:21 recent 271:12 receptacle 235:8 recess 109:15 recessed 161:2 recircing 94:9 recirculate 83:20 86:14 recirculation 137:17 reclaim 65:22 reclaimed 5:16 7:20 reclaiming 65:7 recognize 70:6 143:17 recognizing 139:18 214:2 238:15 recommend 11:12 248:6 249:5 recommendation 242:16 258:8 recommendations 32:18 33:17 recommended 45:21 recommends 242:14,15 record 225:22 227:16,17 260:2 293:3,5 294:7 recorded 294:4 recordings 295:6 296:6 297:6 records 266:1 recovery 5:15,16 recycled 8:22 recycling 8:22 redirect 58:2 reduce 263:13 reduced 6:7 145:19 168:11 294:5 reduces 68:20 266:21 reducing 69:20 168:9 redundant 22:20 101:8 reference 228:20 referring 145:17 228:13 229:2,3 reflect 42:4 refrigerant 57:19,22 58:1 98:16 99:7,10,12 100:12 179:16 refrigerated 205:10 213:20 226:10 260:18 265:13 refrigeration 1:6 2:6,9 3:12 25:16,18 99:22 100:1,3 101:3 120:4 139:8 204:9 217:9 226:2 269:3 refrigerator 233:18,20 234:2 235:2,12 refundable 289:4 regard 89:19 regarding 156:13 163:21 204:14 218:8 regional 62:22 69:19 register 262:9 292:5 regression 220:22 regular 35:21 152:2 regulate 19:7 34:5 regulated 36:11,14,18 40:12,14 115:13 170:22 217:4 233:9 234:20 235:10,12 265:7

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 relative 58:22 92:18 103:3 141:22 relatively 5:1 59:12,13 80:17 relay 279:12 release 277:15 278:6,9 released 277:11 relevant 172:22 relief 15:13 83:13,15 84:9 86:1 87:4 88:4,15 94:18 187:4 270:9,15,18,22 272:14 relieving 84:9 remain 258:1 287:15 remaining 256:4 289:8 remains 259:3 remember 14:15 109:18 137:15 150:2,3 154:13 163:5 166:6 167:8 178:22 202:13 reminded 96:9 162:18 255:9 remote 217:8 226:17 removal 57:20 200:15 remove 66:19 70:1 129:8,12 147:6 185:20 228:3 237:2 263:15 removed 48:9 133:18 153:9 226:20 removing 70:3 226:18 repeat 175:9 repeated 175:10 replace 122:3 182:7 report 42:3 241:7,20 242:6,11,18 243:2,9,16 244:11 245:2 246:13 248:18 249:21 261:15 263:19 reported 1:17 295:3 296:3 297:3 Reporter 135:19 293:2,5 294:1,2,15 295:3 296:3 297:3 Reporter's 295:5 296:5 297:5 Reporting 1:18 reports 13:21 109:20 240:17,19 261:21 262:1 263:6 264:22 268:12 represent 278:13 representation 205:21 263:1 representative 262:17 263:3,18 request 141:3 265:21,22 266:22 267:2,5

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 standard 10:7 14:5,13 18:19 19:2 21:5 23:9,13,22 28:8,21 29:14 35:17 37:3 38:19 42:14 43:1,2,4,18 47:18 48:19 49:20 56:19 71:15 84:3,20 96:10 101:18 112:14 114:3 121:5 127:17 135:7,11 136:1,16 137:5 140:21 141:13 142:7 144:10 149:10 151:18 165:21 166:1,9 170:4 172:20 173:15 212:6 227:4 229:11,13 262:21 266:9 269:8,9 270:22 271:1,2,10 272:12,15,19 standards 1:3 14:15 25:5 36:19 41:2 61:17 68:8 69:18 77:10 91:14 115:12 119:9 135:7 151:20 211:22 270:18,19 272:21 293:10 standing 84:6 standpoint 55:22 73:3 84:14 101:22 108:11 122:10,17,20 STANOIK

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