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### Environmental Protection Agency 1

2

3

4

5 

### Public Hearing on the Proposed Federal Plan 6


### and Model Rules for the Clean Power Plan 7 

### For Existing Power Plants 8

9 

### Day 2 10

11 

### 9:02 a.m. to 5:08 p.m. 12 

### Friday, November 20, 2015 13

14

15


### Sam Nunn Atlanta Federal Center 16 

### Main Tower Bridge Conference Center 17 

### 61 Forsyth Street, SW 18 

### Atlanta, GA 30303 19

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### EPA Panel: 1 

### Morning Session: 2


### FRED THOMPSON 3 

### JEANANNE GETTLE, Deputy Director of Air 4 

### Pesticides and Toxics Management Division, EPA 5 

### COLIN BOSWELL, Office of Air Quality Planning 6 

### and Standards, EPA 7

8 

### Afternoon Session: 9


### TIM MITCHELL 10 

### SUZANNE RUBINI, Chief, Office of Air, Pesticides, 11

### and Toxics Legal Support, EPA Region 4 12 

### COLIN BOSWELL, Office of Air Quality Planning 13

### and Standards, EPA 14

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### C O N T E N T S 1


### PAGE 2 

### Morning Session 3 

### DRU PRESTON, Biomass for Georgia Coalition 13 4 

### ABBY FOX, Southeast Energy Efficiency 5 

### Alliance 16 6 

### CHRIS PERKINS, U.S. Green Building Council 22 7 

### CHRIS CUOMO, University of Georgia 26 8 

### KEITH DANIEL, Georgia Transmission Corporation 31 9 

### DOUG FULLE, Oglethorpe Power Corporation 37 10 

### JUNE DEEN, American Lung Association 42 11 

### THOMAS BEUSSE, Georgia Chemistry Council 45 12 

### BETSY ABRAMS, former meteorologist 48 13


### PAT DAUGHERTY 51 14


### RICKI SOARING DOVE 54 15 

### REMY DEVOE, American Nuclear Society 57 16 

### MOLLY CAGLE, Manufacture Alabama 61 17 

### NEIL HERMAN, University of Tennessee 65 18


### SONUM NERURKAR 70 19


### YEOU-RONG JIH 72 20

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1


### PAGE 2 

### Afternoon Session 3


### COMMISSIONER TIM ECHOLS 87 4


### BRIONTE McCORKLE 93 5 

### TING MA 99 6


### DORIS MARLIN 103 7


### JIM REEFE 109 8 

### IAN KARRA, Sierra Club, Beyond Coal Campaign 118 9 

### KAYLON PATERSON, Amicus Terrae 122 10


### JESSICA WANG 125 11 

### GARRY HARRIS, Center for Sustainable 12

### Communities 127 13


### CHRIS HOLLOWAY 133 14

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### P R O C E E D I N G S 1 

### MR. THOMPSON: Okay, folks. We're going 2 

### to get started. 3 

### Good morning. My name is Fred Thompson 4 

### and I am the chair of today's public hearing. 5 

### Thank you for coming today. Joining me on the 6 

### panel are, to my left, Jeananne Gettle of EPA's 7 

### Region 4, and Colin Boswell, who is with EPA's 8 

### Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards. 9 

### Fossil fuel-fired power plants are the 10 

### largest source of U.S. carbon dioxide emissions, 11 

### or carbon pollution, accounting for 31 percent of 12 

### U.S. total greenhouse gas emissions. Reducing 13 

### carbon pollution from power plants is an 14 

### essential step in lessening the impacts of 15 

### climate change and providing a more certain 16 

### future for our environment, our health, and 17 

### future generations. 18

### We are here today to listen to your 19 

### comments on the EPA's proposed federal plan and 20 

### model rule to implement the Clean Power Plan for 21 

### Existing Power Plants. 226

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### On October 23, 2015, the Environmental 1 

### Protection Agency published, in the Federal 2 

### Register, its proposed federal plan to implement 3 

### emission guidelines for power plants under 4 

### Section 111(d) of the Clean Air Act. The EPA's 5 

### 111(d) rule, known as the Clean Power Plan, takes 6 

### effect on December 22, 2015, and applies to 7 

### affected power plants that began construction on 8 

### or before January 8, 2014. 9 

### The federal plan and model trading rules 10 

### demonstrate a readily available path forward for 11 

### Clean Power Plan implementation, and presents 12 

### flexible, affordable implementation options for 13 

### states. The model rules provide a cost-effective 14 

### pathway to adopt a trading system supported by 15 

### the EPA and make it easy for states and power 16 

### plants to use emissions trading. It does the 17 

### heavy lifting for states who may choose to use a 18 

### model rule as their state plan. The EPA would 19 

### implement the federal plan in any state that does 20 

### not submit an approvable plan. 21

### This proposal includes four discrete 227

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### proposed actions: a rate-based federal plan for 1 

### each state with affected EGUs; a mass-based 2 

### federal plan for each state with affected EGUs; a 3 

### rate-based model trading rule for potential use 4 

### by any state; and a mass-based model trading rule 5 

### for potential use by any state. 6 

### The proposed federal plans will achieve 7 

### the same levels of emissions performance as 8 

### required of state plans under the Clean Power 9 

### Plan. Federal plans will be finalized only for 10 

### those states with affected EGUs that the EPA 11 

### determines have failed to submit an approvable 12 

### 111(d) state plan by the relevant deadlines set 13 

### in the emission guidelines. 14

### In those states where a federal plan may 15 

### be required, a final federal plan will implement 16 

### the same emission guidelines for affected power 17 

### plants outlined in the Clean Power Plan. It 18 

### would not require additional control requirements 19 

### or impose additional costs. Even where a federal 20 

### plan is put in place for a particular state, that 21 

### state will still be able to submit a plan which, 228

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### if approved, will allow the state and its sources 1 

### to exit the federal plan. 2 

### States may take delegation of 3 

### administrative aspects of the federal plan in 4 

### order to become the primary implementers, or 5 

### submit partial state plans in order to take over 6 

### the implementation of a portion of a federal 7 

### plan. States operating under a federal plan may 8 

### adopt complementary measures outside of that plan 9 

### to facilitate compliance and lower costs to the 10 

### benefit of power generators and consumers. 11

### The proposal also includes a model rule 12 

### for those states that are developing their own 13 

### state plans. The EPA intends to finalize both 14 

### the rate-based and mass-based model trading rules 15 

### in the summer of 2016. A state program that 16 

### adheres to the model trading rule provisions 17 

### specified in this rulemaking, when final, would 18 

### be presumptively approvable. 19

### There are stand-alone portions of the 20 

### model trading rules, such as the evaluation, 21 

### measurement, and verification procedures for 229

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### emission rate credits, also known as ERCs, that 1 

### would be approvable even if a state adopted an 2 

### approach that differs in other respects from the 3


### model rule. 4 

### In addition, the proposal contains a 5 

### finding that it is necessary or appropriate to 6 

### implement a Section 111(d) federal plan for the 7 

### affected EGUs located in Indian country. CO2 8 

### emission performance rates for these facilities 9 

### were finalized in the Clean Power Plan. It also 10 

### contains information on how the EPA will reach 11 

### out to communities throughout the comment period 12 

### and an overview of the actions that EPA is taking 13 

### to ensure that vulnerable communities are not 14 

### being disproportionately impacted by the 15 

### rulemaking. 16

### If you would like more details on the 17 

### proposed rule, there are fact sheets available at 18 

### the registration desk. 19

### Before we get started, I'd like to go 20 

### through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 21 

### that will help to make today's hearing hopefully 2210

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### run smoothly. First, please be sure you have 1 

### checked in at the registration desk, even if you 2 

### are not planning to speak today. And if you 3 

### signed up to speak online or by phone but haven't 4 

### told us that you are here, please step out to the 5 

### registration desk and let the EPA staff know that 6 

### you have arrived. 7 

### I will call speakers up in pairs. When 8 

### your name is called, please come to the speakers' 9 

### table at the front of the room, which is here to 10 

### my right. When I call on you to speak, please 11 

### state your name and spell it for the court 12 

### reporter. Your comments will be transcribed and 13 

### included in the record of comments on the 14 

### proposed rule. 15

### Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 16 

### comments. We have a timer light to help you know 17 

### how much time you have left to speak, and it's 18 

### here to the left. When the light turns from 19 

### green to yellow, that means you have 1 minute 20 

### remaining. When it turns red, that's a signal 21 

### that your 5 minutes have expired, and it is time 2211

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### to stop. Yellow, 1 minute; red, stop. When you 1 

### are finished speaking, please remain at the table 2 

### until the person next to you has completed his or 3 

### her testimony. 4 

### We are here to listen to you today. 5 

### However, a panel member may ask questions to 6 

### clarify your comments. 7 

### I will then call up the next set of 8 

### speakers, and so on. If you have brought a copy 9 

### of your written testimony, please give that to 10 

### the staff at the registration desk before you 11 

### leave today. We will put written comments 12 

### submitted today in the official docket for the 13 

### proposed rule. 14

### We also have comment cards available at 15 

### the registration desk, if you would like to 16 

### submit additional written comments today. If you 17 

### want to comment in writing later, stop by the 18 

### materials table near the registration desk and 19 

### pick up a copy of the instructions for submitting 20 

### written comments. Comments must be received by 21 

### January 21, 2016. And I'll repeat that. 2212

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### Comments must be received by January 21, 2016. 1 

### Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 2 

### much consideration to comments we receive in 3 

### writing as we do to comments we receive at public 4 

### hearings like this one. So if you have more 5 

### comments that you would like to provided the EPA, 6 

### please submit them by the comment period 7 

### deadline. Your comments will, I assure you, be 8 

### reviewed. 9 

### If you have any questions during the day, 10 

### please see the staff at the registration desk, 11 

### and someone will gladly assist you. 12

### Thank you again for taking the time today 13 

### to share your comments on EPA's proposal, and 14 

### with that, let's get started. 15

### A correction. If you have a written 16 

### testimony we'd like to ask that you give your 17 

### written testimony to the court reporter who is 18 

### sitting to my left. Thank you. 19

### So with that, let's get started. At this 20 

### time I would like to invite Dru Preston and Abby 21 

### Foster. Please come forth with your testimony. 2213

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### Good morning to the both of you, and 1 

### thanks for coming. I'd like to start with you, 2 

### Mr. Preston. Please state your name and spell it 3 

### for the court reporter and begin with your 4 

### testimony. 5 

### MR. PRESTON: All right. My name is Dru 6 

### Preston. That's D-r-u P-r-e-s-t-o-n, and I am 7 

### with the Georgia Forestry Commission and I am 8 

### representing the Biomass for Georgia Coalition. 9 

### We are pleased to be able to present biomass as a 10 

### viable method to help Georgia meet the Clean 11


### Power Plan. 12

### I'll start by giving a little overview of 13 

### forestry here in Georgia. We have 24.4 million 14 

### acres of timberland. Georgia is two-thirds 15 

### forested and this has remained stable since the 16 

### 1950s. We have one of the largest privately 17 

### owned timberland acreages in the nation, and we 18 

### have consistently had 40 percent or more growth 19 

### over removals in recent years. Georgia has a 20 

### $28.9 billion forestry industry that employs over 21 

### 135,000 people. It's one of the largest 2214

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### industries in this state, and more than half of 1 

### Georgia's counties are dependent, either 2 

### moderately to critically, on forestry, so it's 3 

### very important for rural economies. It is 4 

### estimated that Georgia's forests offset about 8 5 

### percent of our state's emissions. 6 

### Georgia currently has a biomass 7 

### definition that is very inclusive and very broad, 8 

### in terms of eligible biomass material. It 9 

### includes trees, wood, wood waste and residues, 10 

### wood chips, bark chips and forest standing, and 11 

### we believe that this is a good and very inclusive 12 

### definition for biomass. We believe that all the 13 

### materials should be included, which is mill 14 

### residues as well as residues from the pulp and 15 

### paper process, also logging debris and urban wood 16 

### waste. It is estimated that Georgia produces 17 

### about 9 million dry tons of logging debris and 18 

### urban wood waste every single year, and this is a 19 

### very under-utilized source. Landowners are trying 20 

### to remove this material. Much urban wood waste 21 

### ends up in landfills, so this is a good 2215

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### opportunity. This is a new market for this type 1 

### of material. 2 

### We also, though, believe that standing 3 

### trees, particularly small-diameter trees, should 4 

### be included as well. This would help in certain 5 

### parts of the state where the market for small6 

### diameter trees is not as robust and strong as 7 

### other parts of the state. This would certainly 8 

### help create a new market and incentive for 9 

### landowners to keep their lands forested. 10

### We also believe that standing trees 11 

### should be included because of the ability to use 12 

### them through forest thinnings. This would reduce 13 

### wildfire risk, in terms of removing overcrowded 14 

### trees and heavily stocked stands. It would also 15 

### remove damaged and diseased trees that have been 16 

### damaged by insects, or you have ice storm damage 17


### and those sorts of events. 18

### So we support a wide inclusion of 19 

### eligible biomass, again, to create opportunities 20 

### for new markets. This would broaden 21 

### participation for landowners and industry alike. 2216

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### It would keep urban wood waste out of landfills 1 

### and it allows for thinning of small-diameter 2 

### trees, particularly trees that are diseased and 3 

### storm-damaged. It would be a win-win situation 4 

### for Georgia, for our citizens, for the 5 

### environment. It would keep working forest in 6 

### forest, because here in Georgia, healthy and 7 

### productive forests are driven by markets. If 8 

### there's markets for the timber, people will put 9 

### their land in timber. When they harvest the 10 

### timber they will replant it. It gives them 11 

### incentive to do that. 12

### So that's why we urge that there is as 13 

### broad an inclusion for eligible biomass as 14 

### possible. 15

### So thank you. 16

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Preston. 17 

### Ms. Fox, please begin. 18

### MS. FOX: Good morning. My name is Abby 19 

### Fox and I'm a policy manager with the Southeast 20 

### Energy Efficiency Alliance, or SEEA. SEEA is a 21 

### nonprofit, non-partisan organization 2217

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### headquartered here in Atlanta, that serves an 11- 1 

### state territory from Virginia down to Florida, 2 

### over to Louisiana and Arkansas. SEEA leverages 3 

### our extensive network consisting of utilities, 4 

### program implementers, trade allies, and 5 

### manufacturers to convene partners, strengthening 6 

### and enabling policies and strategic programs, and 7 

### provide technical advisory services. 8 

### SEEA does not take a position on EPA's 9 

### authority to issue the Clean Power Plan. 10 

### Instead, SEEA is here to provide perspective on 11 

### how EPA can facilitate the use of energy 12 

### efficiency has a least cost-compliant pathway 13 

### within the proposed federal plan, while keeping 14 

### implementation manageable for EPA. 15

### Energy efficiency is a proven win-win for 16 

### the Southeast. In addition to offsetting CO2 and 17 

### other emissions, energy efficiency enhances the 18 

### reliability of the electric grid, reduces power 19 

### sector risks, improves public health, and 20 

### supports job creation and economic growth. 21

### Of critical importance for the 2218

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### implementation of the Clean Power Plan, energy 1 

### efficiency remains the region's least cost 2 

### resource. A recent SEEA analysis documented that 3 

### high-performing utilities in the Southeast are 4 

### generating energy savings at a level live cost of 5 

### between 1 and 3 cents per kilowatt hour, lower 6 

### than the spectrum of supply side resources 7 

### currently available. Energy efficiency's cost 8 

### profile makes it an important tool for moderating 9 

### compliance costs, while supporting other critical 10 

### economic benefits in the Southeast. 11

### Following the release of the final rule 12 

### and the removal of Building Block 4, energy 13 

### efficiency, EPA has repeatedly and effectively 14 

### reinforced the availability of energy efficiency 15 

### as a compliance option. However, in its proposed 16 

### federal plan, EPA has determined not to make 17 

### available demand-side energy efficiency a non18 

### affected combined heat and power. Under a rate19 

### based approach, energy efficiency is not eligible 20 

### to generate ERCs. Under a math-based approach, 21 

### energy efficiency is not included within EPA's 2219

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### proposed allowance allocation method outside of 1 

### the Clean Energy Incentive Program, or 2 

### recommended as a strategy available to states 3 

### that determine their own allocation processes 4 

### under a federal plan. 5 

### While the majority of states within 6 

### SEEA's footprint have expressed their intent to 7 

### move forward with the compliance plan, some may 8 

### ultimately take a federal plan. If energy 9 

### efficiency is taken off the table for federal 10 

### plan implementation, costs may rise significantly 11 

### and may negatively impact the welfare of low12 

### income households and vulnerable communities 13 

### within our region. 14

### Accordingly, we strongly encourage EPA to 15 

### explore a means to reinforce the availability of 16 

### energy efficiency as a compliance option, by 17 

### considering options for including it in the 18 

### federal plan. While EPA must take into account 19 

### important logistical considerations, SEEA 20 

### believes that energy efficiency could be made 21 

### available to states as an option under a federal 2220

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### plan while maintaining the desire rigor, as well 1 

### as ease of implementation. 2 

### One of the specific concerns articulated 3 

### by EPA in its proposed federal plan preamble is 4 

### the management of evaluation measurement and 5 

### verification of saving from energy efficiency 6 

### measures, or EM&V. SEEA is aware of numerous 7 

### resources that may streamline implementation and 8 

### lighten the load for EPA. For instance, there 9 

### are multiple efforts underway across the nation 10 

### to develop energy efficiency registries, which 11 

### could serve as clearinghouses and perform the 12 

### necessary EM&V for ERC generation under a rate13 

### based approach, or document EM&V for savings 14 

### under various allocation methods, and set-asides 15 

### that incorporate energy efficiency under a math16 

### based approach. 17

### Registries provide a consistent framework 18 

### for energy efficiency to be included in 19 

### compliance plans, and facilitate streamlined 20 

### review and vetting of savings from energy 21 

### efficiency measures that may lessen the 2221

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### obligation for EPA. Notably, the Southeastern 1 

### states of Georgia and Tennessee are currently 2 

### participating in a stakeholder process to design 3 

### and build out a national energy efficiency 4 

### registry for potential application under the 5


### Clean Power Plan. 6 

### SEEA looks forward to continuing to 7 

### collaborate with EPA and regional stakeholders to 8 

### chart a path forward for energy efficiency under 9 

### a federal plan and to create a least cost maximum 10 

### benefit compliance framework. Please do not 11 

### hesitate to reach out to us if we can provide any 12 

### additional information or perspective to future 13 

### support this work. 14

### Thank you. 15

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Are there any 16 

### questions from the panel? 17

### [No audible response.] 18

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you both for your 19 

### testimony. 20

### Okay. At this time I would like to 21 

### invite Chris Perkins and Dr. Chris Cuomo to 2222

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### please come forward for testimony. 1 

### So Chris and Dr. Chris. Let's see which 2 

### one we'll start with first. Perkins. Could you 3 

### please state and spell your name for the court 4 

### reporter and begin your testimony. 5 

### MR. CHRIS PERKINS: Yes. My name is 6 

### Chris Perkins, and that's C-h-r-i-s 7 

### P-e-r-k-i-n-s. I'm here with the U.S. Green 8 

### Building Council. 9 

### I'm here to talk mostly about LEED 10 

### buildings. LEED stands for Leadership in Energy 11 

### in an Environmental Design. Whole-building 12 

### approaches optimize electric efficiency. One 13 

### proven approach to achieving emissions reductions 14 

### related to energy efficiency is whole-building 15 

### efficiency approaches. These approaches 16 

### implement a suite of measures rather than just 17 

### individual equipment or single aspects of a 18 

### building energy. To obtain deep savings in a new 19 

### or existing building, above-code certifications 20 

### are an important way of delivering whole-building 21 

### approaches by requiring energy efficiency that is 2223

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### a minimum level better than a referenced energy 1 

### code, or that is better than the majority of the 2 

### proportion of similar buildings, and a third3 

### party verification of this achievement. 4 

### LEED certification can help mitigate 5 

### emission reduction targets. LEED was first 6 

### established in 1998 to recognize leading building 7 

### technologies and practices. Over the past 15 8 

### years, leaders in both the private and public 9 

### sectors have voluntarily decided to use LEED to 10 

### help ensure building better performance across 11 

### energy, water, waste, and other environmental 12 

### indicators. 13

### Typically, new LEED buildings achieve 14 

### efficiencies of 25 to 40 percent over the current 15 

### building energy code. The latest version, LEED 16 

### Version 4, requires a minimum performance of 5 17 

### percent or better than that of the ASHRAE 90.1- 18 

### 2010. Additional points are awarded for higher 19 

### levels of performance. For a state with a 20 

### building energy code equivalent of ASHRAE 90.1- 21 

### 2007, a building achieving the minimum LEED 2224

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### requirement would represent a 23 percent 1 

### improvement over baseline code, depending on the 2 

### building type. 3 

### In actuality, energy performances for 4 

### most certified buildings would be substantially 5 

### better than these minimum figures suggest, for 6 

### two reasons. First, a study of projects 7 

### certified under LEED Version 2009 shows that the 8 

### energy achievement of most LEED projects has been 9 

### significantly greater than the minimum. For 10 

### example, in 2011 through 2013, the average design 11 

### efficiency for certified new commercial buildings 12 

### was 29 percent better than ASHRAE 90.1-2007. 13 

### Secondly, whereas a building code is subject only 14 

### to the code enforcement which can vary certified 15 

### buildings are also third-party verified, adding 16 

### assurance. Moreover, LEED can also be used in 17 

### the Clean Power Plan context to deliver 18 

### distributed renewable energy which some projects 19


### feature. 20

### LEED certification has bipartisan appeal 21 

### and activates the private sector. Building green 2225

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### is not a partisan issue. Healthy, safe, and 1 

### efficient buildings resonate with a very broad 2 

### audience and strike an important chord with those 3 

### working to foster economic productivity and the 4 

### growth of the emerging clean, green economy. 5 

### The private and public sector have 6 

### embraced LEED to create bottom-line benefits, 7 

### among other things, reducing energy and water 8 

### use, and along with that reducing operating 9 

### costs. Indeed, 88 of the Fortune 100 10 

### successfully used LEED to meet their goals. 11 

### Developing companies and owners use LEED on new 12 

### and existing things to add value to their 13 

### portfolios. In fact, 436 million square feet 14 

### were certified to LEED in the U.S. last year. Of 15 

### the nearly 3,500 projects certified in the 16 

### country in 2014, about 600, which is 18 percent, 17 

### were federal, state, or local government, and the 18 

### remainder private business institutions and other 19 

### entities. 20

### By recognizing LEED, EnergyStar, and 21 

### other above-code certification systems, states 2226

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### can tap into a proven system to achieve deep 1 

### energy savings. 2 

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Are there any 3 

### questions, or follow-up questions? 4 

### [No audible response.] 5 

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Dr. Chris 6 

### Cuomo, please. 7 

### DR. CUOMO: Thank you. Thanks for the 8 

### opportunity to speak, and I want to say that it's 9 

### really wonderful that the Obama administration 10 

### has put forth the Clean Power Plan, and this is a 11 

### historic opportunity for the U.S. to really seize 12 

### the leadership on a global scale. And in light 13 

### of the recent events in Paris, where we see the 14 

### importance of making our values real through 15 

### policy and law, and our social structures, the 16 

### relevance of the Clean Power Plan really cannot 17 

### be under-estimated. 18

### I am a professor of philosophy and 19 

### women's studies at the University of Georgia. My 20 

### areas of specialization are ethics and the 21 

### intersections between environmental and social 2227

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### justice. As a researcher and a scholar, it's 1 

### also really gratifying to have seen, over the 2 

### last decade, the way that the EPA has been a 3 

### leader in work, bringing together social and, I 4 

### might say, structural justice, including 5 

### environmental justice, but other kinds of 6 

### planning as well. 7 

### The fact that I am a philosopher and that 8 

### I work in environmental ethics, that might seem 9 

### really esoteric, but of course it's not esoteric 10 

### because laws and policies are the only way that 11 

### we can make our values real in the world. We can 12 

### be nice to the people around us, we can be good 13 

### coworkers, we can be good people, all of that, 14 

### but we cannot make big structural and social 15 

### change without law and policy. It's just too bad 16 

### but that it why we have things like democracy on 17 

### this planet. 18

### My research shows -- and I'll be 19 

### submitting an academic paper as part of my 20 

### written testimony today -- but my research shows 21 

### that actually -- and you probably know this too 2228

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### -- that it's impossible for us, human beings, to 1 

### address climate change on a personal level. We 2 

### need changes at the institutional level. We get 3 

### a lot of guilt-tripping about changing light 4 

### bulbs and not driving as much, et cetera, but we 5 

### are all locked into system that make it 6 

### impossible to not use light bulbs and electricity 7 

### and cars, and do things like, right now, burn 8


### coal. 9 

### I'm a climate change activist but anybody 10 

### could call me on the carpet for my inconsistency 11 

### and the inconsistencies with my practiced and my 12 

### values because I turn the lights on and I burn 13 

### coal that probably makes kids really sick, in 14 

### Kentucky. So the fact that I cannot actualize my 15 

### values without the help of policy-makers and law16 

### makers makes this a crucial issue. We hear a lot 17 

### about how people don't care, people don't care. 18 

### Well, people do care, but what are they going to 19 

### do with their caring? We can only enact our 20 

### caring through policy and law. 21

### A recent study by the Pew Research 2229

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### Center, just released last week, showed that 75 1 

### percent of American women and 57 percent of 2 

### American men -- I won't go into the gender; you 3 

### can figure that out yourself -- say that they are 4 

### aware that lifestyle changes will be necessary to 5 

### address climate change. That's all, just 6 

### awareness that lifestyle changes will be 7 

### necessary, and we know that those lifestyle 8 

### changes, some of them may be painful, some of 9 

### them might actually be very gratifying if you get 10 

### to spend more time with people that you love 11 

### instead of looking at screens. But changes are 12 

### needed. They're needed to continue economic 13 

### growth and they're needed for health and for the 14 

### well-being of our planet. We know that. 15

### If we can't implement the Clean Power 16 

### Plan we can't do anything. This is it. This is 17 

### where it has got to begin, and as I said at the 18 

### beginning, we've got to be the leaders for the 19 

### world. Policy is the only route that we have. 20 

### Individuals, families, communities at the smaller 21 

### scale need to be empowered by, and enabled by 2230

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### this kind of policy at the highest level, period. 1 

### We cannot do it on our own. 2 

### I live in Decatur; I work in Athens, 3 

### Georgia. I also do research in northernmost 4 

### Alaska, the northern slope of Alaska, ground zero 5 

### for climate change. My research there shows that 6 

### those communities are suffering right now from 7 

### climate change. We know that it's happening in 8 

### America. It's not just poor women living in huts 9 

### in a tidal zone in Indonesia. Americans are 10 

### affected and it's not just through catastrophic 11 

### events like Katrina. It's through the everyday 12 

### melting that's happening on the tundra in Alaska. 13

### So on behalf of many Americans and on 14 

### behalf of our environmental values, which are 15 

### part of our American legacy, I want to just 16 

### express really strong support for the Clean Power 17 

### Plan and I thank the EPA for even putting it 18


### forward. 19

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Dr. Cuomo, and 20 

### if you would please, before I ask the panel if 21 

### they have any follow-up questions, state and 2231

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### spell your name for the court reporter. 1 

### DR. CUOMO: Yes. Chris Cuomo. C-h-r-i-s 2 

### Cuomo, C-u-o-m-o. 3 

### MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you. Any 4 

### follow-up? 5 

### MR. BOSWELL: Just to submit the papers 6 

### you're referencing, would be great. 7 

### DR. CUOMO: Will do. Thank you. 8 

### MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you both for 9 

### your testimony, for being here. 10

### At this time I'd like to invite Keith 11 

### Daniel to please come forward for testimony. 12

### You're it. Good morning. 13

### MR. DANIEL: Good morning. 14

### MR. THOMPSON: If you could start by 15 

### stating and spelling your name for the court 16 

### reporter and then proceed with your testimony, 17 

### sir. 18

### MR. DANIEL: Thank you. My name is Keith 19 

### Daniel, K-e-i-t-h D-a-n-i-e-l, and I'm the 20 

### Senior Vice President of Transmission Policy for 21 

### Georgia Transmission Corporation. 2232

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### Georgia Transmission is a transmission 1 

### cooperative whose primary purpose is to provide 2 

### transmission service to its 38 members, member 3 

### electric cooperatives. We own 3,100 miles of 4 

### transmission lines and close to 700 substations, 5 

### and serve a peak load of around 9,000 megawatts. 6 

### Georgia Transmission believes that with 7 

### the Clean Power Plan EPA has exceeded its 8 

### authority into the Clean Air Act and we are 9 

### participating within NRECA in challenging it. 10 

### However, today I would like to discuss the impact 11 

### of the Clean Power Plan on the transmission 12 

### system and the necessity of including a 13 

### reliability safety valve in the federal plan. 14


### The Clean Power Plan means an 15 

### unprecedented shift in the country's generation 16 

### mix. Fewer traditional synchronous generators 17 

### and more intermittent renewables will bring about 18 

### a significant change in the operation of the bulk 19 

### power system. The Eastern Interconnection is one 20 

### of the largest and most complicated machines in 21 

### the world and a key component of this is the grid 2233

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### that links the generators to the loads. However, 1 

### the transmission grid depends on generation to 2 

### provide a central reliability service and to 3 

### ensure the machine runs properly. 4 

### NERC is projecting that we will see 5 

### 80,000 megawatts of generation retired by 2022, 6 

### and with most of that being traditional steam 7 

### generation utilizing coal and natural gas. That 8 

### retired generation is expected to be replaced 9 

### with predominantly natural gas, wind, and solar 10



### resources. 11

### Retiring generation can have negative 12 

### impacts on the transmission system. First of 13 

### all, removing generation changes the power flows 14 

### and can cause overloads on the existing grid. In 15 

### addition, large synchronous generators provide 16 

### inertia and stability that electronics cannot 17 

### fully emulate. But the bulk system impacts don't 18 

### stop there. Most intermittent generation does 19 

### not have a firm fuel supply and cannot provide 20 

### firm capacity. A central reliability service 21 

### such as load-following, spinning reserves, 2234

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### frequency response, voltage support and 1 

### regulation can only provide it by intermittent 2 

### generation if some capacity is held in reserve, 3 

### and that does not seem likely. 4 

### Short-circuit capability, which is 5 

### important for transmission relaying systems to 6 

### work properly, is not supplied by electronically 7 

### based renewable generation. Excessive ramping 8 

### rates and generation minimum levels are other 9 

### concerns, which become magnified with increasing 10 

### levels of intermittent generation. 11

### All of these issues introduce the 12 

### potential for reliability gaps. The present 13 

### transmission system is planned on particular 14 

### criteria such as peak and off-peak loads, certain 15 

### generation, and transmission assumptions. 16 

### Transmission planners note that these specific 17 

### set of circumstances may never occur, but from 18 

### experience we recognize that planning for these 19 

### conditions provides enough redundancy and margin 20 

### for the system to be able to operate successfully 21 

### under a vast majority of adverse conditions that 2235

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### actually occur. The removal of large synchronous 1 

### generators and the addition of many electronic2 

### based intermittent resources will introduce more 3 

### uncertainty and will reduce the margin that we 4 

### have today. 5 

### Because of these potential reliability 6 

### gaps, we could find ourselves subject to a major 7 

### system disturbance that just a few years earlier 8 

### the system would have ridden through. This is 9 

### not to say that renewable generation is a bad 10 

### thing, but as penetration levels rise, there is 11 

### much more uncertainty about how the bulk system 12 

### will respond. In addition, we do not yet have 13 

### significant experience with studying and planning 14 

### for large amounts of asynchronous generation. 15

### So there will be significant challenges 16 

### for the transmission system as a result of the 17


### Clean Power Plan. Increased renewable 18 

### penetration will either increase cost, decrease 19 

### reliability, limit operational flexibility, or 20 

### most likely some combination of those three. 21 

### Transmission improvements will take time with 2236

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### that time, with the higher voltages and longer 1 

### lines, that time increases. Thus, allowing 2 

### exceptions to the carbon limits to address 3 

### critical reliability situations, which is the 4 

### reliability safety valve, in the federal plan as 5 

### is allowed in state plans is critical to ensure 6 

### the most reliable bulk power system. 7 

### In conclusion, the location and type of 8 

### generation is critical for grid reliability. 9 

### Generation is more than just a megawatt output, 10 

### and as the penetration levels of renewables 11 

### increase, challenges to the transmission grid 12 

### increase as well. Given the appropriate amount 13 

### of time for transmission improvements, these 14 

### challenges, for the most part, can be addressed. 15 

### However, that means additional transmission costs 16 

### on top of the additional generation cost required 17 

### by the Clean Power Plan. The federal plan needs 18 

### to be as flexible as possible, and should include 19 

### a reliability safety valve. 20

### Thank you for your attention and the 21 

### opportunity to speak today. 2237

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### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Daniel. 1 

### Are there any follow-ups for Mr. Daniel? 2 

### [No audible response.] 3 

### MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you very 4 

### much, sir. 5 

### At this time I'd like to invite Doug 6 

### Fulle and June Deen to please come forward. 7 

### Good morning to the both of you and 8 

### thanks for coming. I'd like to begin by having 9 

### you state and spell your name for the court 10 

### reporter, and please begin with your testimony. 11

### MR. FULLE: My name is Doug Fulle. 12 

### That's F-u-l-l-e. I'm the Vice President of 13 

### Environmental Affairs for Oglethorpe Power 14 

### Corporation. We're glad to take this opportunity 15 

### to provide some initial comments on the proposed 16 

### federal plan and model rules of the Clean Power 17


### Plan. 18

### Oglethorpe Power is one of the nation's 19 

### largest not-for-profit electric power supply 20 

### cooperatives with nearly $10 billion in assets 21 

### and serving 38 electric membership corporations, 2238

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### or ERCs, which collectively provide electricity 1 

### to more than 4.2 million Georgians. 2 

### As an initial matter, we believe the 3 

### Clean Power Plan is beyond EPA's authority under 4 

### the Clean Air Act and we are participating in 5 

### challenges to it through the National Rural 6 

### Electric Cooperative Association and the Utility 7 

### Air Regulatory Group. However, I do not plan to 8 

### discuss the legal basis for these challenges 9 

### today. Rather, in the event that the plan does 10 

### survive legal challenges, we want to ensure that 11 

### the proposed federal plan and model rules are 12 

### modified so as to minimize the financial and 13 

### reliability impacts on more than 4 million 14 

### Georgians served by the EMCs, many in 15 

### economically disadvantaged areas with lower wages 16 

### than in other areas of the state. These people 17 

### are least able to afford any additional increases 18 

### in their energy costs due to new environmental 19 

### regulations. 20

### Therefore, we are providing detailed 21 

### written comments by January 21st, and some 2239

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### initial thoughts follow. 1 

### First, both rate-based and mass-based 2 

### federal plans should be finalized rather than 3 

### just one, allowing states to choose the approach. 4 

### Those plans should be finalized sooner rather 5 

### than later, ideally before September of 2016, in 6 

### order to allow the states to evaluate their 7 

### options. 8 

### Second, if EPA refuses to finalize both 9 

### rate-based and mass-based plans, EPA should 10 

### finalize the rate-based plan as it allows the 11 

### affected electric generating units more 12 

### flexibility to deal with increased demand or 13 

### reliability issues. A rate-based plan would also 14 

### provide a more direct transparent mechanism for 15 

### recognizing low carbon resources. 16

### While either approach will result in 17 

### increased costs, we believe, based on preliminary 18 

### modeling, that the rate-based method would be 19 

### less expensive for Georgia. Also, the cost could 20 

### be reduced further if the points we make here 21 

### today and the detailed comments we will provide 2240

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### in January are incorporated. 1 

### Third, trading should be allowed between 2 

### rate-based and mass-based states in the federal 3 

### plans and model rules, as well as in the Clean 4 

### Power Plan itself. Such trading would be 5 

### possible if emission reduction credits, or ERCs, 6 

### would be denominated in tons of CO2 in addition 7 

### to megawatt hours. States could determine for 8 

### each ERC issued an equivalent number of tons of 9 

### CO2 avoided. As allowances are denominated in 10 

### tons of CO2, there would be a common tradable 11 

### currency. Allowances brought in to rate-based 12 

### states could be used to reduce the tons of CO2 in 13 

### the numerator while determining compliance with 14 

### the allowable state rate. Trading among states 15 

### using the various compliance pathways should 16 

### lower the overall cost of the plan for 17 

### electricity consumers. 18

### Fourth, the option for a Clean Energy 19 

### Incentive Program should be included in both the 20 

### final federal plans -- both of them, rate- and 21 

### mass-based. Further, eligibility for the program 2241

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### should be expanded to include incremental nuclear 1 

### generation as well as other zero or low emitting 2 

### generation. Projects that begin operation, 3 

### rather than construction, after the eligibility 4 

### date, which should be October 23, 2015, should 5 

### also be allowed. Participation in a Clean Energy 6 

### Incentive Program should not change the overall 7 

### state goal, rate or mass. 8 

### Fifth, under the mass-based option, new nuclear 9 

### generation should be eligible for inclusion in 10 

### the renewable energy set-aside and also in the 11 

### output-based set-aside. 12

### Finally, EPA must include a reliability 13 

### safety valve in the federal plan as there is no 14 

### reason to believe that it will be any less needed 15 

### in a state that accepts a federal plan than in a 16 

### state that chooses to develop its own plan. 17 

### However, a set-aside should not be required. 18

### As I indicated earlier, these are our 19 

### initial comments. We will provide detailed 20 

### comments in January. Thanks. 21

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Fulle. Any 2242

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### follow-up? 1 

### [No audible response.] 2 

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Ms. Deen, 3 

### please. 4 

### MS. DEEN: My name is June Deen. I'm the 5 

### Senior Vice President of Public Policy and Health 6 

### Promotions for the American Lung Association in 7


### the Southeast. 8 

### Thank you for providing an opportunity 9 

### for me to speak. As many of you know, the Lung 10 

### Association's mission is to save lives by 11 

### improving lung health and preventing lung 12 

### disease. The American Lung Association believes 13 

### that we need strong carbon standards to protect 14 

### the lung health of everyone, especially those who 15 

### suffer from lung disease. I'm here today to 16 

### testify in support of strong federal and model 17 

### plans that will help drive a shift to cleaner 18 

### energy sources, address climate change, and 19 

### reduce as much pollution as possible to protect 20


### our health. 21

### We support the Clean Power Plan to reduce 2243

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### carbon and other air pollutants that cause asthma 1 

### attacks, heart attacks, and premature death, and 2 

### we want to make sure we achieve the EPA's 3 

### estimated health benefits for the Clean Power 4 

### Plan, including preventing up to 3,600 premature 5 

### deaths in 2030, preventing 90,000 asthma attacks, 6 

### and avoid 300,000 days missed from work and 7 

### school each year. These health benefits will 8 

### only come as states develop effective plans to 9 

### meet the requirements set out by the EPA in the 10


### Clean Power Plan. And for those states who 11 

### refuse to comply, it's critical that EPA have a 12 

### way to ensure emissions reductions by taking 13 

### actions at the federal level. 14

### We strongly support the Clean Energy 15 

### Initiative Program as a promising encouragement 16 

### to all states to start now to invest in the clean 17 

### renewable energy sources of wind and solar. 18 

### EPA's model plan offers states that option, but 19 

### we would encourage EPA to make it a standard 20 

### element in the final model plan, rather than 21 

### allowing it to be optional. In the model plan, 2244

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### states can opt out of the broad Clean Energy 1 

### Incentive Program opportunity for renewable 2 

### energy and improved energy efficiency programs. 3 

### We recommend that EPA incorporate the 4 

### Clean Energy Initiative Program elements fully in 5 

### the model plan, rather than leaving this as an 6 

### option for states to decide later. We need to 7 

### have a strong Clean Power Plan in place to cut 8 

### carbon pollution and lessen the burdens on the 9 

### health of millions of Americans. We encourage 10 

### EPA to adopt standards that will ensure we do as 11 

### much as we can to fight these threats and protect 12 

### public health. 13

### Thank you. 14

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Are there any 15 

### questions? 16

### [No audible response.] 17

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you both for your 18 

### testimony, and Mrs. Deen, before you go, you 19 

### started your name but could you spell it for the 20 

### court reporter please? 21

### MS. DEEN: Yes. It's June, J-u-n-e, 2245

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### Deen, D-e-e-n. 1 

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you very much. 2 

### Again, thank you both. 3 

### Okay. At this time we're going to take a 4 

### brief break until we get some folks in here to 5 

### testify, so we'll reconvene here shortly. 6 

### [Break taken from 9:44 to 9:51 a.m.] 7 

### MR. THOMPSON: At this time I'd like to 8 

### invite Thomas Beusse to please come forward for 9 

### testimony. 10

### MR. BEUSSE: Good morning. 11

### MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for coming. If you 12 

### could start by stating and spelling your name for 13 

### the court reporter and then begin. 14


### MR. BEUSSE: Yes. Thomas Beusse. 15


### T-h-o-m-a-s B-e-u-s-s-e. 16

### Good morning, everyone. Like I said, my 17 

### name is Thomas Beusse. I'm the Director of 18 

### Government Affairs for the Georgia Chemistry 19 

### Council. The Georgia Chemistry Council is a 20 

### state-wide trade association representing the 21 

### business of chemistry in Georgia, the state's 2246

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### third-largest manufacturing sector. We employ 1 

### over 19,000 Georgians in skilled, high-paying 2 

### jobs in communities throughout the Peach State. 3 

### We in Georgia, like those in the business of 4 

### chemistry throughout the nation, and especially 5 

### in the South, are presently enjoying a 6 

### renaissance of domestic chemical manufacturing 7 

### due to the low cost of natural gas. To date 8 

### there have been 246 new expansion projects 9 

### announced nationally. That's over $153 million in 10 

### capital invested. This will lead to over 465,000 11 

### permanent, high-paying American jobs by 2023. 12 

### The low cost of our main feed back, natural gas, 13 

### combined with abundant and affordable energy is 14 

### what has spurred on this expansion. 15

### We are an energy-intensive industry. We 16 

### use electricity not only to keep the lights on in 17 

### our sites but also as a vital input for many of 18 

### our processes. One of our main concerns is the 19 

### effect that these proposed regulations will have 20 

### on our utility costs, and the competitive 21 

### disadvantage they would place on businesses 2247

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### located within states that rely heavily on coal1 

### fired power due to significant rate hikes. 2 

### It is one of our greatest concerns that 3 

### this once-in-a-generation growth, and all of the 4 

### benefits it will bring, which are on the cusp of 5 

### realizing, would be derailed. In fact, it is our 6 

### belief that EPA's plan oversteps its authority 7 

### under the Clean Air Act and sets a troubling 8 

### precedent, rather than focusing on emissions from 9 

### individual sources, as the Act requires. EPA is 10 

### attempting to wield control over the entire 11 

### energy sector in each state. 12

### That being said, whatever final rule 13 

### ultimately goes into effect, we believe that 14 

### energy efficiency solutions must be a 15 

### centerpiece. Energy efficiency is a low-cost 16 

### proven emission reduction strategy and should be 17 

### placed on an equal footing with low carbon, 18 

### renewable energy technologies, whose reliability 19 

### at this time may be questionable. 20

### On behalf of the business of chemistry in 21 

### Georgia, and our over 19,000 employees, than you 2248

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### for your time and have a good evening. 1 

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for your time as 2 

### well. Are there any follow-up questions of Mr. 3


### Beusse? 4 

### [No audible response.] 5 

### MR. THOMPSON: Again, thank you very much 6 

### for being here. 7 

### MR. BEUSSE: Thank y'all. 8 

### MR. THOMPSON: At this time I'd like to 9 

### invite Betsy Abrams and Pat Daugherty to please 10


### come forward. 11

### Good morning. Please. Beginning with 12 

### Abrams, could you state and spell your name for 13 

### the court reporter and then begin with your 14 

### testimony. 15

### MS. ABRAMS: My name is Betsy Abrams, 16 

### B-e-t-s-y A-b-r-a-m-s. It's on here too, if you 17 

### need the spelling. 18

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. 19

### MS. ABRAMS: And basically my background 20 

### is as a meteorologist at The Weather Channel for 21 

### 22 years, and also a master gardener in DeKalb 2249

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### County, Georgia now for the past 5 years. My 1 

### feeling is, of course, you had a guy come up form 2 

### the Chemistry Council -- big business as far as 3 

### I'm concerned -- all worried about energy 4 

### efficiency. 5 

### My feeling about the whole thing is, one, 6 

### global climate change is a reality. I don't care 7 

### what anybody else wants to say. And it may cost 8 

### a bit of money to have to go through everything 9 

### and fix what's going on, but energy efficiency 10 

### could be done in hotels, motels. You could have 11 

### card stuck into things and fix that. Then there 12 

### could be a lot of jobs for new technology. You 13 

### could have offshore, the offshore wind farms. 14 

### Instead of offshore drilling which is going to 15 

### release more carbon dioxide into the air, have 16 

### the offshore wind farms. 17

### Have solar power -- solar power in 18 

### Georgia. There's plenty of sun here. Plenty of 19 

### bright sunshine a lot of the year to get the 20 

### solar power from. A lot of good jobs could be 21 

### found for solar industry here. Electric cars 2250

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### rather than gas-powered cars. Because everybody 1 

### talks about more natural gas or more oil things. 2 

### Again, you've got the carbon dioxide going up and 3 

### it's a greenhouse gas, and no matter what people 4 

### say about anything you have a situation now with 5 

### the ice in the North Pole, less and less 6 

### coverage, and it's a feedback kind of mechanism. 7 

### People don't always realize that, where you note 8 

### some ice and then you have less reflection of the 9 

### sun coming off that, and you've got more and more 10 

### warming from it, because more and more sunlight 11 

### could come in on the dark waters there rather 12 

### than the ice reflecting everything. 13

### So I don't care. People -- there might 14 

### be a very tiny percent of, quote, scientists 15 

### saying nothing's going on, but it's maybe 0.1 or 16 

### 0.2 percent. I think they're all paid off, 17 

### unfortunately, by the big corporations to say 18 

### nothing is happening. There's no such thing. To 19 

### Fox News to say this is fair and balanced, that 20 

### nothing is going on is, to me, very unscientific 21 

### and very irresponsible. 2251

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### I guess I don't really have much more to 1 

### say than that. There's a lot of solutions and 2 

### good things could come out of this. And from 3 

### what I know, from hearing about Obama's plan, 4 

### it's probably a step forward. 5 

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Abrams. 6 

### Are there any follow-up questions from the panel? 7 

### [No audible response.] 8 

### MR. THOMPSON: Okay. No, please, if you 9 

### could just remain, if you don't mind. Yes, 10 

### ma'am. Thank you. Please. 11

### MS. DAUGHERTY: My name is Pat Daugherty. 12 

### It's P-a-t D-a-u-g-h-e-r-t-y. I live in Bishop, 13 

### Georgia. I work with various organizations. 14

### This plan is, to me, a huge example of 15 

### extensive overreach by the EPA. According to the 16 

### EPA itself, the regulation will cost $8.4 billion 17 

### annually -- $8.4 billion. This is almost ten 18 

### times more expensive than any other rule that 19 

### they have come out with in 2015. The economic 20 

### benefits that the EPA is claiming are based on 21 

### speculation about public health and climate 2252

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### change outcomes. There's no way for these 1 

### estimates to be accurate since we don't know what 2 

### other countries are going to do with respect to 3 

### their emissions, and the record on making climate 4 

### predictions is consistently inaccurate. 5 

### The EPA estimates that 14 to 19 percent 6 

### of coal power will be driven out of business, 7 

### which is not exactly good for our struggling 8 

### economy right now -- oh, driven out of business 9 

### by 2030, under the plan. Thirty-nine percent of 10 

### domestic energy comes from coal but this plan 11 

### will probably close at least 66 coal plants 12 

### across the country, which will drive people's 13 

### jobs -- it will ruin their jobs. 14

### The coal industry employs approximately 15 

### 175,000 workers. A study by the American Action 16 

### Forum found that as many as 34,000 of these could 17


### be lost as a result of the Clean Power Plan. 18 

### Each coal industry job supports 3.7 other jobs 19 

### across the country. Factoring these in, the 20 

### Clean Power Plan could cost 125,800 jobs. In 21 

### order for natural gas to fill the demand caused 2253

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### by reductions in coal use, utilities will have to 1 

### invest billions in new infrastructure, resulting 2 

### in higher process for the consumers because, 3 

### naturally, if companies have more expense they're 4 

### going to have to make up that expense somewhere 5 

### by charging consumers. 6 

### In Great Britain, high energy costs have 7 

### resulted in skyrocketing winter death rates, and 8 

### the World Health Organization attributes many of 9 

### these deaths to poorly heated homes. In 2013, 10 

### the number of such deaths was 31,000, and this 11 

### year it's expected to top 40,000. So increasing 12 

### the cost of energy in the U.S. could cost 13 

### American lives because people are struggling in 14 

### so many areas. This would be way more expensive. 15 

### It's not going to do what the proponents indicate 16 

### that it will do, and I think it's just a really 17 

### bad plan. 18

### MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you for your 19 

### testimony. Before you go, any follow-up 20 

### questions? 21

### [No audible response.] 2254

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### MR. THOMPSON: Well, thank you both for 1 

### being here today. Thank you for your testimony. 2 

### Okay. Once again, until someone else 3 

### shows up to testify we're going to take a break, 4 

### and if there's anyone in the audience that has 5 

### not registered out front and would like to 6 

### testify, please feel free to do so. Thank you, 7


### folks. 8 

### [Break taken from 10:00 to 10:14 a.m.] 9 

### MR. THOMPSON: Okay, folks. We're going 10 

### to get started again. At this time I'd like to 11 

### invite Reverend Ricki Soaring Dove to please come 12 

### forward for testimony. 13

### Good morning. If you could start by 14 

### stating and spelling your name for the court 15 

### reporter and then begin with your testimony. 16

### REV. SOARING DOVE: All right. Reverend 17 

### Ricki, R-i-c-k-i, Soaring, S-o-a-r-i-n-g, and 18 

### Dove, capital D-o-v-e. 19

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Please begin. 20

### REV. SOARING DOVE: I wasn't going to 21 

### speak because I get nervous speaking, but I'm 2255

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### pushing 90 years old. I don't look my age 1 

### because I take good care of myself. And my 2 

### daughter, I'm very proud of her. She just spoke 3 

### and she's a scientist, and has been most of her 4 

### life with The Weather Channel. 5 

### I'm speaking as a reverend and as a 6 

### holistic therapist, on an island off the coast of 7 

### Maine for 50 years. I just left 3 years ago to 8 

### retire. And the change on that island is so 9 

### profound that that's what made me decide to stand 10 

### up and speak. 11

### The ocean temperature, in 1959-60, when I 12 

### started there, was 50 degrees at its maximum, 13 

### which the fishermen told me is November 2nd, and 14 

### then it starts cooling off. There were all kinds 15 

### of fish, and somebody said about overfishing. 16 

### That's not any part of the issue. That's just 17 

### the greed of people who fish. But the big thing 18 

### is the lobsters. Lobsters need a certain kind of 19 

### clarity of water and also temperature. What's 20 

### happened is we've lost a whole industry now, in 21 

### 50 years practically. 2256

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### I've been speaking to a couple of lobster 1 

### fishermen and a lot of them are getting rid of 2 

### their boats. Their grandchildren, who started 3 

### fishing, can't fish either because the lobsters 4 

### now, the water is too warm so they're moving to 5 

### Canada and Nova Scotia. Now, there's nothing any 6 

### agency or any human can do about that except to 7 

### understand that we have global warming. Whether 8 

### you believe it or not, that's what's happening in 9


### the ocean. 10

### The other issue for me was that I worked 11 

### at the medical center with people with terminal 12 

### cancer and other illnesses, and that cancer, and 13 

### also as a minister at hospitals in Florida, and 14 

### why are we having babies with so much cancer, 15 

### being born with cancer now if it isn't for 16 

### pollution everywhere? 17

### So we have to address these issues and as 18 

### a grandmother, I don't understand how anybody can 19 

### bring children into this world without really 20 

### looking, and being angry at what human beings are 21 

### doing, and their stupidity, and the corporate 2257

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### world is just poisoning our brains, I think, and 1 

### we're just not thinking. What's going to happen 2 

### to all these generations of children? 3 

### So if anybody wants to ask any questions, 4 

### I don't know what else to say. 5 

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for that 6 

### testimony. Let me just turn to my colleagues and 7 

### ask. Would you guys have any follow-up 8 

### questions? 9 

### [No audible response.] 10

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you so much for 11 

### being here today and for your testimony. 12

### REV. SOARING DOVE: You're very welcome. 13

### MR. THOMPSON: Okay. At this time I'd 14 

### like to invite Remy Devoe and Neil Herman to 15 

### please come forward for testimony. Good morning. 16 

### If you could start by stating and spelling your 17 

### name for the court reporter and then begin with 18 

### your testimony. 19

### MR. DEVOE: My name is Remy Devoe. It's 20 

### R-e-m-y D-e-v-o-e. 21

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. 2258

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### MR. DEVOE: I have a speech but I might 1 

### throw in some anecdotes if time allows. 2 

### My name is Remy Devoe and I am a member 3 

### of the American Nuclear Society, and I am a 4 

### recent graduate from the University of Tennessee. 5 

### We just drove from Knoxville so sorry we're a 6 

### little bit late. I'm here to make a comment on 7 

### the federal plan, suggesting that we include 8 

### further incentives for nuclear power plants so 9 

### that they don't shut down prematurely, like we've 10 

### seen in the past few months, and also include 11 

### incentives to promoted advanced nuclear power, 12 

### advanced reactors, as well as small modular 13 

### reactor designs, which are being developed now. 14

### So why I think that we really need to 15 

### encourage the growth of nuclear industry, as well 16 

### as renewables, over 60 percent of the clean 17 

### energy produced in the United States is from 18 

### nuclear, so it's a very robust resource we have 19 

### for fighting climate change, and if we lose that, 20 

### that will definitely set us back quite a bit. 21 

### Even environmentalists -- I mean, I consider 2259

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### myself an environmentalist -- climate scientists, 1 

### and President Obama all stated that we need 2 

### nuclear energy if we're going to really be 3 

### serious about fighting climate change. And if we 4 

### really want to stick to these goals we need to 5 

### keep the power plants we now operating. 6 

### Nuclear energy, it's a great complement 7 

### to renewables. It runs night and day. It's a 8 

### good base-load power source, which we can't find 9 

### a clean, carbon-free source as of yet. It's also 10 

### a good way for energy security in case there's 11 

### poor weather conditions, like in the Polar Vortex 12 

### we saw in the Northeast. Nuclear energy was able 13 

### to provide electricity to help meet the demand. 14 

### And if we close these plants, we're definitely 15 

### setting ourselves up for a harder way forward for 16 

### reducing our carbon emissions. 17

### The fact of the matter is that current 18 

### nuclear operating plants are at risk of shutting 19 

### down, and within the last month we've seen two 20 

### plants announce that they will close because of 21 

### economic pressure from lower natural gas prices, 2260

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### which are from fracking. So I think we all agree 1 

### that fracking is a bad thing, but they are 2 

### decreasing the price of natural gas and that's 3 

### part of the Clean Power Plan is that we should 4 

### rely more on natural gas. Well, I think we 5 

### should at least maintain the supply of nuclear 6 

### energy that we have, if not grow it. That way 7 

### we're not relying too much on one energy source 8


### over another. 9 

### And in the plan there is a lot of talk 10 

### about leakage, especially in this federal plan, 11 

### and that really was focusing on leakage of fossil 12 

### units. You could have the same thing happen 13 

### where you lose a nuclear plant and you replace 14 

### that with a new natural gas power plant, and you 15 

### would effectively increase your carbon emissions. 16 

### But that wouldn't be shown through your state's 17 

### emissions, either rate-based. In mass-based it 18 

### would. So I recommend that all calculations be 19 

### done mass-based. That way it's completely fair 20 

### and shows exactly what you're emitting from your 21


### state. 2261

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### It's a very big, important deal close to 1 

### my heart because I'm a nuclear engineer and I 2 

### hope to help foster the next generation of 3 

### nuclear energy in this country. Thank you for 4 

### letting me talk. 5 

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for being here, 6 

### Mr. Devoe, and for driving from Knoxville to be 7 

### with us this morning. Are there any follow-up 8 

### questions for Mr. Devoe? 9 

### [No audible response.] 10

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you very much. Neil 11 

### Herman. Is Neil Herman in the room? 12

### [No audible response.] 13

### MR. THOMPSON: Okay, folks. Again we're 14 

### going to take a short recess and we'll reconvene 15 

### momentarily. 16

### [Break taken from 10:22 to 10:27 a.m.] 17

### MR. THOMPSON: Okay. We're going to 18 

### reconvene here. At this time I'd like to ask 19 

### Molly Cagle to please come forward for testimony. 20

### Good morning. 21

### MS. CAGLE: Good morning. I'm Molly 2262

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### Cagle, M-o-l-l-y C-a-g-l-e, and I'm the External 1 

### Affairs Director at Manufacture Alabama, the 2 

### state's only trade association dedicating to 3 

### promoting and protecting the success of 4 

### manufacturers and their partner industries. We 5 

### represent manufacturers in a broad range of 6 

### industries including iron and steel, chemical 7 

### manufacturers, and paper producers. Affordable 8 

### and reliable electricity is the lifeblood that 9 

### fuels their operations, which is why we have 10 

### serious concerns about the EPA's Clean Power 11 

### Plan, since it will increase the cost of 12 

### electricity and decrease grid reliability. 13

### For manufacturers, having access to 14 

### reliable electricity is not a matter of 15 

### convenience. It's a matter of safety and 16 

### survival. Today's advanced manufacturing 17 

### equipment requires an uninterrupted power source 18 

### because the sudden loss of power can harm the 19 

### equipment and even injure employees. While 20 

### backup generators can provide a temporary power 21 

### source for critical systems, they are expensive 2263

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### to operate and are not designed to run an entire 1 

### manufacturing facility. 2 

### The Clean Power Plan will require Alabama 3 

### utilities to shut down many of their coal-fired 4 

### generating units, which will leave our state 5 

### susceptible to power supply shortages during 6 

### extreme weather. Unlike natural gas, which can 7 

### experience transmission constraints during times 8 

### of very high demand, power plants can keep enough 9 

### coal on site to run their generating units for 10 

### several weeks. During the Polar Vortex we 11 

### experienced 2 years ago, coal-fired power plants 12 

### keep Alabama power grids stable. If the Clean 13 

### Power Plan had been in effect during the cold 14 

### spell, manufacturers would have had to shut down 15 

### their operations because the available power 16 

### supply would not have been able to keep up to 17


### demand. 18

### The consequence of the Clean Power Plan 19 

### that will be the most harmful to manufacturers is 20 

### in increasing electricity costs. According to a 21 

### recent study conducted by National Economic 2264

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### Research Associates, the EPA's plan is expected 1 

### to raise energy costs in Alabama by 19 percent. 2 

### This will raise production costs and will make it 3


### even harder for Alabama's manufacturers to 4 

### compete in a global market. The Clean Power Plan 5 

### will likely force some manufacturing companies to 6 

### shut down and others to move their operations 7



### overseas. 8 

### We urge the EPA to fully consider the 9 

### impact the Clean Power Plan will have on the 10 

### manufacturing industry which employs 1 out of 8 11 

### Alabamians. 12

### Thank you. 13

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for your 14 

### testimony. Are there any follow-up questions? 15

### MR. BOSWELL: Just to submit the study 16 

### you referenced. 17

### MS. CAGLE: Okay. 18

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Okay. I don't 19 

### think Mr. Herman is in the room but I'm going to 20 

### ask, is Neil Herman in the room and ready to 21 

### testify? 2265

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### ATTENDEE: [Inaudible comment.] 1 

### MR. THOMPSON: So you've moved yours. 2 

### Thank you. 3 

### All right. Again, we'll take a break 4 

### until we have someone else present to testify. 5 

### Thank you, folks. 6 

### [Break taken from 10:30 to 11:34 a.m.] 7 

### MR. THOMPSON: Okay, folks, we're going 8 

### to get started again. At this time I'd like to 9 

### invite Neil Herman to please come forward for 10 

### testimony. 11

### Good morning, Mr. Herman. 12

### MR. HERMAN: Good morning. 13

### MR. THOMPSON: If you could begin by 14 

### stating your name and spelling it for the court 15 

### reporter, please. 16

### MR. HERMAN: Neil Herman. N-e-i-l 17


### H-e-r-m-a-n. 18

### MR. THOMPSON: Please begin. 19

### MR. HERMAN: Okay. I'm a student here 20 

### representing the University of Tennessee and the 21 

### Bredesen Center, which is an energy, science, and 2266

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### engineering PhD program, jointly administered by 1 

### UT and Oak Ridge National Lab. We have an 2 

### interdisciplinary focus on policy and 3 

### entrepreneurship, as well as engineering and 4 

### science. 5


### At the Bredesen Center we have a student 6 

### research group which is focused on understanding 7 

### and analyzing the EPA Clean Power Plan from an 8 

### independent perspective and sharing our results 9 

### with the public. We have dozens of students 10 

### participating in this project and meeting on a 11 

### weekly basis. In that group, we have students 12 

### with experience in the nuclear industry and 13 

### policy, students who have worked with EPA in the 14 

### past, who are involved in state politics, and 15 

### most of the students who also conduct scientific 16 

### research at Oak Ridge, and some with a background 17 

### of working in power plants. 18

### Speaking as a member of this research 19 

### group, I can say that I understand the 20 

### motivations behind reducing greenhouse gas 21 

### emissions and that we have high hopes following 2267

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### the joint announcement by the U.S. and Chinese 1 

### presidents, the two leading emitting countries of 2 

### carbon dioxide, to reduce emissions 25 to 30 3 

### percent by 2025 and 2030. However, I also have 4 

### some concerns about the EPA Clean Power Plan, 5 

### about cost and reliability of electricity and 6 

### energy, and reservations about the EPA's claim 7 

### that they are not picking winning technologies. 8 

### Firstly I will start by talking about 9 

### mass- versus rate-based calculation methods in 10 

### the plan. The mass-based plan, in our view so 11 

### far, is simpler and it makes more sense. It 12 

### actually computes the amount of carbon dioxide 13 

### that is reduced, whereas the rate-based plan 14 

### depends on the energy portfolio of the state 15 

### that's involved. 16

### For example, switching to natural gas or 17 

### natural gas combined cycle, which seems to be the 18 

### poster child of this plan, could actually be more 19 

### favorable than building carbon-free generation 20 

### such as renewables or nuclear power, and it could 21 

### actually increase CO2 emissions while still 2268

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### meeting the goals of the plan. 1 

### A concern under the mass-based plan is 2 

### the concept of leakage and how the plan would 3 

### address this. Leakage, what it means is that 4 

### because the Clean Power Plan only applies to 5 

### plants built before 2014, so that if a plant is 6 

### modified or reconstructed it doesn't apply under 7


### the Clean Power Plan but under the carbon 8 

### pollution standards. The solution in this plan 9 

### is to implement allowance, and 5 percent of 10 

### allowances are reserved for a set-aside, and this 11 

### allows states to support their current generation 12 

### and prevent them from taking this work-around 13 

### method by building new fossil fuel. However, we 14 

### feel that the leakage solution is still overly 15 

### complicated, difficult to understand, and we hope 16 

### that it can be improved. 17

### My classmate Remy already spoke about the 18 

### dangers to the nuclear industry, posed, in part, 19 

### by unfair pricing in the energy market and the 20 

### advance of cheap natural gas, which I believe 21 

### these problems to the nuclear industry will be 2269

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### exacerbated by this plan, especially the rate1 

### based approach, which supports, over every other 2 

### alternative, seemingly, shutting down coal and 3 

### replacing it with natural gas. 4 

### Lastly, concerns about costs and 5 

### reliability. The FERC, Federal Energy Regulatory 6 

### Commission, has rightly expressed concerns about 7 

### reliability under this plan, which relies heavily 8 

### on renewables and natural gas, and both of these 9 

### technologies, which are more sensitive to extreme 10 

### weather and price disruptions. 11

### I believe there is a need for more 12 

### supporting in this plan of maintaining our 13 

### nuclear fleet, which can serve as base 14 

### electricity source to support unreliable 15 

### renewable energy. I also believe this plan, under 16 

### the rate-based system, has potential to allow 17 

### plans to increase their carbon emissions while 18 

### counting for improvements under the sometimes 19 

### strange EPA math, which would be a shame and a 20 

### step in the wrong direction for fighting climate 21 

### change while forcing our states and utilities to 2270

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### jump through regulatory hoops without results to 1 

### show for it. 2 

### Overall, our group looks forward to 3 

### continuing our analysis of the EPA Clean Power 4 

### Plan, in all of its complicated glory, and we 5 

### hope that our work can help the public and all 6 

### interested parties to understand and benefit from 7


### the Clean Power Plan. 8 

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Thank you for 9 

### your testimony. Let me ask my colleagues, do you 10 

### have any follow-up? 11

### [No audible response.] 12

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you very much for 13 

### being here. At this time I'd like to invite 14 

### Sonum Nerurkar and Yeou-Rong Jih to please come 15 

### forward for testimony. 16

### Hi, ladies, and thanks for being here. 17 

### If you could start by pronouncing your name and 18 

### spelling it for the court reporter please. 19

### MS. NERURKAR: You did a pretty good job. 20 

### So, hi. I'm Sonum Nerurkar. It's S-o-n-u-m 21


### N-e-r-u-r-k-a-r. 2271

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### I'm here to give a statement of support 1 

### for the Clean Power Plan and give recommendations 2 

### on the Clean Energy Incentive Program. Climate 3 

### change disproportionately impacts communities of 4 

### color and the Clean Power Plan represents an 5 

### unprecedented opportunity to address 6 

### environmental inequities in the most vulnerable 7 

### communities. I want to urge the EPA to make the 8 

### CEIP a standard element in the final model plan, 9 

### rather than allowing it to be optional for 10


### states. 11

### I recommend EPA target energy efficiency 12 

### investments to low-income, multi-family housing, 13 

### ensure allowance or options under the federal 14 

### plan and revenue generated are prioritized for 15 

### low-income residents in communities of color, and 16 

### as a public benefit resulting from the option of 17 

### these allowances, and ensure that allowance value 18 

### goes to consumers through energy efficiency, bill 19 

### rebates, workforce trainings, and other low20 

### income community investments. 21

### So those are my basic recommendations, 2272

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### and personally, as a -- I was born and raised in 1 

### North Carolina. I want to commend the EPA for 2 

### putting forth this really impressive plan. I 3 

### think this is a great opportunity to reduce 4 

### pollution for future generations and for people 5 

### my age who are looking to the future and looking 6 

### for strict regulations against air pollution, so 7 

### I commend you on that. 8 

### And that's my statement, so thank you. 9 

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Are there any 10 

### follow-up questions? 11

### [No audible response.] 12

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you very much. 13 

### Please proceed. 14

### MS. JIH: Hi. My name is Yeou-Rong Jih. 15 

### That's Y-e-o-u, hyphen, R-o-n-g, last name, 16 

### J-i-h. And just to get it out of the way, I 17 

### support the Clean Power Plan. 18

### I know you guys have heard a lot about 19 

### Tybee recently, Tybee Island, off the coast of 20 

### Georgia, and that Paul Wolfe and Karen Grainey 21 

### have both given testimonies and they've given you 2273

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### really great statistics about it. But I just 1 

### wanted to tell you a little bit about my personal 2 

### story. My partner and I had the opportunity to 3 

### live in Savannah for the past couple of years. 4 

### He's stationed down there as an Army captain in 5 

### Fort Stewart, and I went to Savannah, and I swear 6 

### to God it's the most beautiful city I've ever 7 

### seen in my life -- tall, live oaks, hanging moss, 8 

### and a straight shot over to Tybee. It was about 9 

### 20 minutes from our house down Highway 80. 10

### My partner is absolutely obsessed with 11 

### sea turtles -- and he's going to kill me that 12 

### that's on federal record now, but it's true -- 13 

### and we volunteer with the Tybee Sea Turtle 14 

### Project, which meant every morning in the summer, 15 

### that we had a chance to, we'd get to go to Tybee 16 

### Island, and walk on the beach, and see the sun 17 

### rise every morning, to see if sea turtles had 18 

### come up to nest. And every fall we'd be able to 19 

### go out on the weekends and sit by those nests, 20 

### watch the sun set, and watch the stars come out, 21 

### and see if little baby sea turtles crawled to the 2274

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### ocean, and tried to protect them as they did. 1 

### And through this opportunity we also got 2 

### to know the people on the island as well, 3 

### everybody from a UPS person who'd worked in the 4 

### industry for 40 years before retiring to his 5 

### perfect beach life with his wife. And then we 6 

### had a single mom who was working to put her kid 7 

### through college at Georgia Tech, and trying her 8


### best. 9 

### These personal connections is what made 10 

### the Tybee flooding so devastating 3 weeks ago. I 11 

### think the proper term for it is called nuisance 12 

### flooding, but it was far more than a nuisance for 13 

### the people on the island. The entire Highway 80, 14 

### the only road on and off the island, was flooded, 15 

### not just for a day but continuously flooded 16 

### during the evenings for an entire week. This 17 

### meant that schools had to be closed, health care 18


### had to be taken care of. We had to have the 19 

### Coast Guard on call just in case there was a 20 

### medical emergency on the island. 21

### One particular story that really stuck 2275

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### with me was the story of Kelly and Jeremy, who 1 

### are chefs in Savannah, at one of the best 2 

### restaurants in town, but they live out on Tybee, 3 

### and for a full week they had to make the really 4 

### hard choice of staying at work and making the 5 

### money that supports their family or passing that 6 

### Highway 80 before it flooded and getting back to 7 

### their child, and making sure that his parents 8 

### were home that night. So it was a really, really 9 

### difficult choice for those families. 10

### The saddest thing about this is that this 11 

### is just going to become more and more prevalent. 12 

### The Union of Concerned Scientists had a study 13 

### that said 40 years ago nuisance floodings only 14 

### happened about 5 times off the eastern coast. 15 

### This year it's about 10 times. By 2030, it's 16 

### going to be 30 times. By 2045, it's going to be 17 

### 100 times if we don't change anything. 18

### Furthermore, according to the National 19 

### Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, two20 

### thirds of Tybee could be under water by the end 21 

### of the century. It seems really far away, by the 2276

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### end of the century, but it's not for these 1 

### people. In the meantime they're dealing with 2 

### childcare issues, educational issues. They're 3 

### dealing with loss of value for property. I know 4 

### several people who are already considering 5 

### selling their homes off of Tybee, places that 6 

### they've lived for 20, 30, 40 years of their 7 

### lives, because they're no longer going to be of 8 

### value and they're scared for their lives and 9 

### their livelihood. 10


### So we need to do more for these coastal 11 

### communities. The Clean Power Plan is a great 12 

### start. I think we need to continue protecting 13 

### the federal implementation plan and making it 14 

### stronger, and have even further reduction of 15 

### carbon emissions. The federal implementation 16 

### plan is particularly important to states who are 17 

### resisting the Clean Power Plan, and I just want 18 

### to apologize on behalf of Georgia for suing you 19 

### over this plan. I don't trust, necessarily, that 20 

### our legislators are going to propose the 21 

### strongest of plans so I want you to have a great 2277

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### backstop for us, to know that we're being 1 

### protected. 2 

### And I want you to keep in mind, to 3 

### protect the most vulnerable communities, such as 4 

### low-income and minority communities, and coastal 5 

### communities that are going to be 6 

### disproportionately affected by climate change. 7 

### So keep us in mind, set a good example 8 

### for the world, do more, protect our coasts and 9 

### the people around the world. Thank you. 10

### MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. Thank you for 11 

### your testimony and thank you for sharing those 12 

### stories on behalf of the others there on the 13 

### island. 14

### Before you go, colleagues, are there any 15 

### questions? 16

### [No audible response.] 17

### MR. THOMPSON: Well, thank you both very 18 

### much for being here today. 19

### Folks, we're going to do a really quick 20 

### check-in at the registration table, at which 21 

### point we'll make a decision on how we play to 2278

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### proceed for the remainder of the a.m. session? 1 

### Okay? So bear with us. 2 

### [Pause.] 3 

### Apparently we do not have anyone here to 4 

### testify so what we're going to do is go ahead and 5 

### break for lunch, and we'll reconvene here at 1 6 

### p.m. Reconvene here at 1 p.m. 7 

### Thank you all for being here this 8 

### morning. 9 

### [Lunch break taken from 11:48 a.m. to 10 

### 1:03 p.m.] 11

### MR. MITCHELL: Good afternoon, everybody. 12 

### My name is Tim Mitchell and I'm going to be the 13 

### chair of this afternoon's public session. Thank 14 

### you guys for coming today. We really appreciate 15 

### you being here with us on a Friday afternoon 16 

### before Thanksgiving. Thank you for coming. 17

### Joining me on today's panel is Suzanne 18 

### Rubini -- she's the head of our law practice for 19 

### the Clean Air Act here in EPA Region 4 -- and 20 

### Colin Boswell, from our Office of Air Quality, 21 

### Planning, and Standards. Colin was instrumental 2279

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### on writing the Clean Power Plan. Please feel 1 

### free to engage them at the break. 2 

### Fossil fuel-fired power plants are the 3 

### largest source of greenhouse gases, carbon 4 

### dioxide, specifically, and carbon pollution, 5 

### accounting for 31 percent of U.S. total 6 

### greenhouse gas emissions. Reducing carbon 7 

### pollution from power plants is an essential step 8 

### in lessening the impacts of climate change and 9 

### providing a more certain future for the 10 

### environment, our health, and future generations. 11

### We are here today to listen to your 12 

### comments on the EPA's proposed federal plan and 13 

### model rule to implement the Clean Power Plan for 14 

### Existing Power Plants. 15

### On October 23rd of this year, the EPA 16 

### published, in the Federal Register, its proposed 17 

### federal plan to implement emission guidelines for 18 

### power plants under Section 111(d) of the Clean 19 

### Air Act. The EPA's 111(d) rule, also known as 20 

### the Clean Power Plan, takes effect on December 21 

### 22nd of this year, and applies to affected power 2280

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### plants that began construction on or before 1 

### January 8th of 2014. 2 

### The federal plan and model trading rules 3 

### demonstrate a readily available path forward for 4 

### Clean Power Plan implementation, and they present 5 

### flexible, affordable implementation options for 6 

### states. The model rules provide a cost-effective 7 

### pathway to adopt a trading system supported by 8 

### the EPA and make it easy for states and power 9 

### plants to use emissions trading. It does the 10 

### heavy lifting for states who may choose to use a 11 

### model rule as their state plan. The EPA would 12 

### implement the federal plan in any state that does 13 

### not submit an approvable plan. 14

### This proposal, the one we're here to talk 15 

### about today, includes four discrete proposed 16 

### actions, the first of which is a rate-based 17 

### federal plan for each state with affected 18 

### electric generating units or EGUs; a mass-based 19 

### federal plan for each state with affected EGUs; a 20 

### rate-based model trading rule for potential use 21 

### by any state; and a mass-based model trading rule 2281

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### for potential use by any state. 1 

### The proposed federal plans will achieve 2 

### the same levels of emissions performance as 3 

### required of state plans under the Clean Power 4 

### Plan. Federal plans will be finalized only for 5 

### those states with affected EGUs that the EPA 6 

### determines have failed to submit an approvable 7 

### 111(d) state plan by the relevant deadlines set 8 

### in the emission guidelines. 9 

### In those states where a federal plan may 10 

### be required, a final federal plan will implement 11 

### the same emission guidelines for affected power 12 

### plants outlined in the Clean Power Plan. It 13 

### would not require additional control requirements 14 

### or impose additional costs. Even where a federal 15 

### plan is put in place for a particular state, that 16 

### state will still be able to submit a plan which, 17 

### if approved, will allow the state and its sources 18 

### to exit the federal plan. 19

### States may take delegation of 20 

### administrative aspects of the federal plan in 21 

### order to become the primary implementers, or they 2282

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### can submit a partial state plan in order to take 1 

### over the implementation of a portion of a federal 2 

### plan. States operating under a federal plan may 3 

### adopt complementary measures outside of that plan 4 

### to facilitate compliance and lower costs to the 5 

### benefit of power generators and consumers. 6 

### The proposal also includes a model rule 7 

### for those states that are developing their own 8 

### state plans. The EPA intends to finalize both 9 

### the rate-based and mass-based model trading rules 10 

### in the summer of this coming year, 2016. A state 11 

### program that adheres to the model trading rule 12 

### provisions specified in this rulemaking, when 13 

### final, would be presumptively approvable. 14

### There are stand-alone portions of the 15 

### model trading rules, such as the evaluation, 16 

### measurement, and verification procedures for 17 

### emission rate credits, or ERCs, that would be 18 

### approvable even if a state adopted an approach 19 

### that differs in other respects from the model 20


### rule. 21

### In addition, the proposal contains a 2283

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### finding that it is necessary or appropriate to 1 

### implement a Section 111(d) federal plan for the 2 

### affected EGUs located in Indian country. CO2 3 

### emission performance rates for these facilities 4 

### were finalized in the Clean Power Plan, 5 

### information on how the EPA will reach out to 6 

### communities throughout the comment period, and an 7 

### overview of the actions that EPA is taking to 8 

### ensure that vulnerable communities are not being 9 

### disproportionately impacted by the rulemaking. 10

### If you would like more details on the 11 

### proposed rule, out in the lobby there are facts 12 

### sheets that go over the basics, at the 13 

### registration desk. 14

### Before we get started, I'd like to go 15 

### through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 16 

### that will make today's hearing hopefully run 17 

### smoothly. First, please be sure you have checked 18 

### in at the registration desk. Even if you are not 19 

### speaking we'd like to capture a list of everyone 20 

### who is here today, so please do that. If you 21 

### signed up to speak online to speak please also 2284

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### let them know that at the registration desk. I 1 

### don't know that we're going to have too much 2 

### trouble getting everybody worked in this 3 

### afternoon but if you did sign up online please 4


### let them know that as well. 5 

### I will call speakers up in pairs. If we 6 

### have two at a time, I'll call you up in pairs. 7 

### When your name is called, please come to the 8 

### speaker table here. When it is your turn to 9 

### speak, the microphones are on, please start by 10 

### stating your first and last name and spelling it 11 

### in full, first and last, for the benefit of the 12 

### court reporter over here, who will be taking a 13 

### transcription of today's proceedings, and the 14 

### transcription will go into the formal docket for 15 

### this rulemaking. 16

### Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 17 

### comments. We have a timer light over here on the 18 

### table. It goes green, yellow, and red. Green is 19 

### for the first 4 minutes, yellow is your final 20 

### minute, and when it turns red your 5 minutes are 21 

### up. When you are finished speaking, please 2285

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### remain at the table until the person next to you 1 

### speaks, and then we'll ask for you to return to 2 

### your seat. 3 

### We are here to listen to you today. 4 

### That's really the focus of today's hearing, just 5 

### to hear what you have to say about the proposal. 6 

### But panel members here may ask clarifying 7 

### questions if we need a little bit more 8 

### information from you. If you did bring a written 9 

### copy of your comments or any other material that 10 

### you would like to have submitted to the docket, 11 

### and you have it with you today, please leave a 12 

### copy of it with the court reporter on your way 13 

### back to your chair, or you can also leave it with 14 

### the registration desk and they'll make sure that 15 

### it gets into the docket. 16

### We also have a number of other ways that 17 

### you can comment. We also have comment cards in 18 

### the lobby. You can fill one out and leave it 19 

### with the registration desk, and if you want to 20 

### comment in writing later, the docket is currently 21 

### open and the instructions for submitting comments 2286

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### to the docket are provided on a fact sheet on the 1 

### proposal that is also available in the lobby. 2 

### I'll just remind everyone that the comment period 3 

### for this proposal closes January 21, 2016, so if 4 

### you do want to provide comments you will need to 5 

### do it by that date. 6 

### Let me close by assuring you that EPA 7 

### gives just as much consideration to comments we 8 

### receive in writing as those that we do in venues 9 

### such as this. So if you have more comments that 10 

### you would like us to consider, please consider 11 

### submitting them in writing to the docket. Your 12 

### comments will be reviewed. 13

### If you have any questions during the rest 14 

### of today, please don't hesitate to ask me or one 15 

### of the panelists or the other EPA staff who are 16 

### wandering around the halls here. And, again, 17 

### thank you for taking the time out of your day to 18 

### come and tell us what you think about the 19 

### proposal, and we look forward to hearing your 20


### comments. 21

### So that's it, and I think we just have 2287

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### one or two speakers, so let me call up 1 

### Commissioner Tim Echols. 2 

### COMMISSIONER ECHOLS: Hey. I'm 3 

### Commissioner Tim Echols, E-c-h-o-l-s. I serve as 4 

### one of the commissioners on the Georgia Public 5 

### Service Commission in Georgia, one of 12 states 6 

### that elect their regulators. And I am here, I 7 

### think -- I don't think any of our other 8 

### commissioners are speaking at this hearing, so 9 

### I'm glad to be here representing the Georgia 10 

### Public Service Commission. 11

### Let me just say by way of introduction 12 

### that I own two electric cars and that I walked 13 

### here today from the Capitol. I installed solar 14 

### thermal on my Winterville home, and this is an 15 

### area of great interest to me personally, as well 16 

### as, of course, the Georgia Public Service 17 

### Commission. 18

### I really wanted to come today and let you 19 

### know that for us time is of the essence, and 20 

### here's why. Around the time that the comment 21 

### period will end, we will receive Georgia Power's 2288

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### Integrated Resource Plan, which is a 20-year 1 

### lookout that we do every 3 years, and this is 2 

### required by a 1991 Georgia law. At about that 3 

### time many states changed the way that they did 4 

### energy planning, and in 1991 the Georgia 5 

### legislature made that change. 6 

### So we have a limited window during that 7 

### time to do our planning, and once that plan is 8 

### set, not a lot of flexibility for us to change 9 

### that. So around April, we will begin hearings on 10 

### the documents that they submit, and that plan is 11 

### going to include information about coal units 12 

### that will stay open, natural gas units that will 13 

### be built or converted, any additional nuclear 14 

### power that they think we should build, any hydro 15 

### that we're going to build, any biomass. It's 16 

### going to include all of that. We're going to 17 

### hear from a number of interveners, of course. 18 

### But at the end of the summer the commissioners 19 

### will vote on this. 20

### So I'm really here today, one, because 21 

### I'm so pleased that the EPA heard us and is 2289

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### giving Georgia full credit for Plant Vogtle 3 and 1 

### 4. That is so important to our state. So thank 2 

### you. Thank you very much for listening and for 3 

### making that slight change in the rule. It really 4 

### means a lot to us. But there is some significant 5 

### clarification that we need in the state regarding 6 

### biomass, and really regarding the list -- there's 7 

### a couple of things -- the list of material that 8 

### will be counted as zero CO2. 9 

### It's important for us to have extreme 10 

### clarity on this, because we're busy now working 11 

### on the compliance plan, and let me tell you how 12 

### the logistics of that works here in Georgia. We 13 

### have, of course, Judd Turner over at our EPD, who 14 

### is writing this thing, and he's the quarterback 15 

### for this plan, working with our EMCs and our 16 

### cities. But once this plan has got a draft form 17 

### I'm sure Judd is going to come to the 18 

### commissioners and say, "Look, we need Georgia 19 

### Power to do this part of this plan in order to 20 

### make it work." 21

### And so the biomass piece of this is very 2290

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### important to us, because we want to -- obviously 1 

### if the EPA smiles upon things like thinnings from 2 

### our pine plantations -- I mean, if you consider 3 

### our pine plantations sustainably managed lands, 4 

### right, and we need clarity on that, then the 5 

### thinnings from that, as we go through and make 6 

### our forests healthy, if those thinnings can be 7 

### counted as zero CO2, we want to know about that, 8 

### put that in our integrated resource plan so we 9 

### can -- maybe we put smaller biomass furnaces at a 10 

### greater number of places around our state so it 11 

### doesn't take as much diesel fuel to get that 12 

### material to that facility. So these definitions 13 

### are really important to us, in getting clarity. 14

### So that really was my message to you 15 

### today, as I come to the end of my 5 minutes, that 16 

### time is of the essence for us, and sooner is 17 

### better than later. Thank you very much. 18

### Do you have questions for me? 19

### MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. Do you all 20 

### have questions? 21

### I'll ask one clarifying question. I've 2291

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### heard people use the phrase "interim IRP" as a 1 

### potential pathway. Could you describe what that 2 

### possibility is and means? 3


### COMMISSIONER ECHOLS: We haven't used 4 

### that word at the Commission. I guess anything is 5 

### possible, and certainly as we get into this 6 

### planning period, as you know, converting coal 7 

### plants to natural gas, or any of these things 8 

### take an enormous amount of time. So if we did 9 

### something temporarily, on an interim basis, you 10 

### know, and then had to go back and change it, it's 11 

### almost like going back to the drawing board. And 12 

### in my experience, the power companies tend to 13 

### want clarity. They're going to take the safest 14 

### route. Georgia Power is not a radical, activist 15 

### organization. It is a company that, you know, 16 

### that's very careful about compliance, and they 17 

### want to make sure that they're not wasting rate18 

### payers' money, ramping things up that are just a 19 

### pipe dream. 20

### And so -- for example, Ken, we've got, in 21 

### Thomaston, Georgia, just south of Griffin, we 2292

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### have a biomass facility that's 90 percent 1 

### complete. It's a gasification -- biomass 2 

### gasification unit that is prepared to burn wood 3 

### waste. We haven't brought it online yet. We 4 

### haven't signed a power purchase agreement with 5 

### them yet. But depending on your definitions and 6 

### your list, it might make it feasible to do that, 7 

### not only in Thomaston, Georgia, but in other 8 

### places like where I was at yesterday, in 9 

### Washington, Georgia, where there's a lot of 10 

### forest, there's a lot of thinnings going on, but 11 

### if there's not an economic model to get those 12 

### thinnings out and over to this biomass plant 13 

### where we have PPA, then it'll go for some other 14



### source. 15

### So we're very much interested in this 16 

### feedstock that's going to be counted as zero CO2, 17 

### and we want to maximize getting that out of the 18 

### field and to the plant. So it's extremely 19 

### important to our state, to the forest industry 20 

### that we be a good steward of those resources. 21

### MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Commissioner. 2293

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### I appreciate it. 1 

### COMMISSIONER ECHOLS: Thank you. 2 

### MR. MITCHELL: Do we have any other 3 

### speakers that have signed up? Can someone check 4 

### please? 5 

### [Pause.] 6 

### MR. MITCHELL: So we don't have any 7 

### speakers that are currently signed up so we will 8 

### take a 25-minute break and we'll reconvene here 9


### at 1:45. 10

### [Break taken from 1:20 to 1:45 p.m.] 11

### MR. MITCHELL: So we'll begin again. We 12 

### have our next speaker is Brionte McCorkle. So 13 

### you'll have 5 minutes to speak, and your 14 

### microphone should be on. If you would kindly 15 

### start by saying and spelling your first and last 16 

### name for the court reporter. 17

### MS. McCORKLE: Yes. My name is Brionte 18 

### McCorkle. First name is B-r-i-o-n-t-e, last name 19


### M-c-C-o-r-k-l-e. 20

### MR. MITCHELL: Go ahead, please. 21

### MS. McCORKLE: Okay. Awesome. All 2294

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### right. So I want to show you all a picture. 1 

### This is my daughter. Her name is Aminata [ph]. 2 

### She was born on August 29th. She is 2-1/2 3 

### months, years old, and I believe that she 4 

### deserves a clean energy future. 5 

### A year ago I testified in favor of the 6 

### Clean Power Plan and at the time I spent my 7 

### testimony talking about myself and my future, and 8 

### the things that I wanted to do, and it wasn't 9 

### until she was born and I locked eyes with her for 10 

### the first time that I realized, whoa, my future 11 

### is here now. So everything that I'm doing is 12 

### really for her, and for her future. 13

### And so there's, like, a lot of stuff 14 

### going on right now and her future is really 15 

### uncertain, the quality that she's going to have. 16 

### Right now I'm sure you all have heard about 17 

### what's going on in Paris and Beirut and Baghdad, 18 

### and now Kenya, and there's so much conflict in 19 

### this world. We've got human rights issues. 20 

### We've got women's rights issues. There's just so 21 

### much to deal with and all I can think is those 2295

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### issues, like terrorism, those are hard problems 1 

### to solve, but climate change, it shouldn't be. 2 

### We know what the problem is, we know what the 3 

### solutions are, we know who should be taking the 4 

### steps to curb the problem. 5 

### So that's why I'm here today, telling you 6 

### all that I support the CPP, and it's why I'll 7 

### continue to be present for any opportunities to 8 

### move us toward a clean energy future. I don't 9 

### think we're asking too much of states and power 10 

### companies to implement this plan. Unfortunately, 11 

### our leaders and power company officials, they 12 

### seek to put their bottom lines, their personal 13 

### interests in front of yours, in front of mine, 14 

### and in front of my daughter's, and I just don't 15 

### think that's fair. 16

### So I learned just before last year's 17 

### hearing the fact, that I used in my comments then 18 

### and I'll share one more time with you, because it 19 

### just blows my mind every time I say it. I work 20 

### for the Georgia Sierra Club. I do transportation 21 

### work, and you guys know that transportation is a 2296

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### third of the greenhouse gas emission pie, so 1 

### that's why we're working on that. My job is to 2 

### help expand transportation alternatives -- 3 

### biking, walking, public transit -- and what I'm 4 

### realizing each day is that what I have to achieve 5 

### is behavior change. I've got to convince 300 6 

### million Americans to get out of their cars and go 7 

### for a walk, or take a bike, or share their cars 8 

### with somebody, and that's really difficult. 9 

### And I've also got to influence the way 10 

### that we build cities, so we're talking about 11 

### fighting developers, and elected officials -- you 12 

### know, all this cronyism that goes on with the way 13 

### that cities are built and developed. So it is 14 

### very difficult for me to achieve victory, and 15 

### when I do achieve victory it doesn't matter how 16 

### many victories I achieve, not one single victory 17 

### will achieve the same emission reductions as 18 

### shutting down just one coal plant will. The 19 

### statistic is shutting down one power plant is the 20 

### equivalent of taking 2.5 million cars off the 21 

### road. That's a lot of work for me. If I made it 2297

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### my goal to take 2.5 million cars off the road, 1 

### using transportation referendums, I'd be at work 2 

### forever, for the next 50, 60 years. 3 

### So, anyway, when I hear a power company 4 

### saying that it's too difficult to implement what 5 

### the CPP proposes, or that's too hard, or whatever 6 

### the excuse is that they want to put out there, I 7 

### just have trouble believing it. 8 

### So I support the CPP. I believe if we 9 

### take the steps to implement the plan now that 10 

### maybe, just maybe, climate change will be one 11 

### less issue that my daughter's generation has to 12


### face. 13

### Thank you. 14

### MS. RUBINI: I just want to clarify for 15 

### the record, are you here on your individual 16 

### capacity or on behalf of the Sierra Club? 17

### MS. McCORKLE: On my individual capacity. 18 

### That's why I put it down at the bottom of the 19 

### speech. 20

### MR. MITCHELL: And I'd request that the 21 

### studies that you mentioned, if you could take 2298

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### some time to let us know about the studies, a 1 

### link to them, in maybe your written comments to 2 

### the docket, that would be helpful for us to know 3


### that. 4 

### MS. McCORKLE: I didn't bring the 5 

### printout but I will definitely submit the written 6 

### comments and make sure I cite those. 7 

### MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. 8 

### MS. McCORKLE: Thank you. 9 

### MR. MITCHELL: We have to be patient as 10 

### we go through the day. It is 10 'til, and no? 11 

### She just spoke. No one else is waiting to speak; 12 

### is that right? Okay. 13

### So it's 10 'til and we'll take another 14 

### 25-minute break and reconvene at 2:15, please. 15 

### Thank you. 16

### [Break taken from 1:50 to 3:08 p.m.] 17

### MR. MITCHELL: Good afternoon, Ting Ma. 18 

### Please come up and have a seat at the table. You 19 

### have 5 minutes to provide your comments, and the 20 

### microphone should be on, and there's a light here 21 

### that will go yellow when you have 1 minute left, 2299

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### and then red when it's time to stop. 1 

### Would you start by telling the court 2 

### reporter over here your name, and then spell it 3


### out for her. 4 

### MR. MA: My name is Ting Ma, T-i-n-g, and 5 

### my last name is M-a. 6


### MR. MITCHELL: Go ahead. 7 

### MR. MA: Okay. So in setting these new 8 

### regulations I believe that we need to not only 9 

### pay attention to the reduction of greenhouse 10 

### gases but we also have to keep in mind the lower11 

### income community who many times suffer the 12 

### consequences of pollution first-handedly. Many 13 

### of the power plants in our country are built near 14 

### low-income communities, with the reason being to 15 

### minimize the external cost of pollution that a 16 

### power plant emits. 17

### I'm sure as most of you know, these 18 

### external costs include deaths and chronic 19 

### illnesses that are brought on by the power 20 

### plants. We have known about this for a very long 21 

### time now, but because our demand for energy is so 22100

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### great we can only try and minimize these damages 1 

### through taxes and pollution allowances. While 2 

### these pollution allowances do not completely 3 

### solve the damages of pollution, it does create 4 

### incentives for energy companies to develop 5 

### greener energy in the long run, and as a result 6 

### lessens the health impacts on these communities. 7 

### When new regulations are being set, we 8 

### have to keep in mind how important these 9 

### allowances are to the health of the people with 10 

### lower incomes. I further believe that these 11 

### pollution permits need to be re-examined and 12 

### should be reassigned in a way not only to further 13 

### push these industries into greener energy 14 

### production but should also work towards bettering 15 

### the health of the low-income community. 16

### We are now at a point where we don't just 17 

### have to mitigate the damages on the low-income 18 

### communities. For the first time, we can look to 19 

### clean energy as a major resource for our energy 20 

### demands. In Germany, a population of around 80 21 

### million can satisfy up to 70 percent of its 22101

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### electrical needs based on green energy at peak 1 

### hours. This shows that tighter restrictions on 2 

### production of greenhouse gas doesn't necessarily 3 

### mean a loss of revenue or a tremendous gain in 4 

### utility costs, and it is very possible for us to 5 

### use green technology to better the well-being of 6 

### people in poverty, with health and economical 7 

### benefits. 8 

### The Clean Power Plan presents a great 9 

### opportunity to not only reduce the amount of 10 

### pollutants in the air but to also help people 11 

### with low socioeconomic status who are impacted by 12 

### climate change. With revenues generated from the 13 

### plan, there needs to be a long-term investment 14 

### into communities disproportionately burdened by 15 

### pollution and economics stress. I am concerned 16 

### that in implementing new regulations, communities 17 

### of color and low socioeconomic status might be 18 

### burdened and pushed further into poverty when the 19 

### plan could have, instead, brought them out of 20 

### poverty, which is why communities with a low21 

### income status must be considered in the 22102

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### implementation of the Clean Power Plan, and must 1 

### net the environmental and economic benefit 2 

### generated by the plan. 3 

### I stress that the Clean Power Plan is a 4 

### great opportunity not only for the planet but 5 

### it's also a good chance for us to help a 6 

### community struggling with poverty. 7 

### Thank you. 8 

### MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. If you would, 9 

### if you're comfortable, we'd like you to leave a 10 

### copy of your testimony with the court reporter, 11 

### or if you would rather you can send it in to us 12 

### in writing before the end of the comment period, 13 

### which is January 21st. 14

### MR. MA: You can take this. 15

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Yeah. Would you 16 

### leave it with the court reporter? And, as I 17 

### said, if you want to submit additional comments, 18 

### you can ask outside at the registration desk and 19 

### they'll give you instructions for doing that. 20

### MR. MA: Okay. 21

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Thank you. 22103

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### [Pause.] 1 

### MR. MITCHELL: Yeah, so I believe we have 2 

### additional speakers coming at 3:30, so we will 3 

### reconvene when those speakers arrive. 4 

### [Break taken from 3:13 to 3:30 p.m.] 5 

### MR. MITCHELL: Are you ready? Okay. If 6 

### you would kindly come up to the table. And the 7 

### microphone should be on. If you would, please, 8 

### you'll have 5 minutes to talk, and if you would 9 

### start by stating your name and then spelling your 10 

### first and last name for our court reporter. 11

### MS. MARLIN: Okay. Good afternoon. My 12 

### name is Doris Marlin, D-o-r-i-s M-a-r-l-i-n, and 13 

### I am here to state my support for the Clean Power 14 

### -- let me just get this right -- the Clean Power 15 

### Plan, and for the federal plan and model rules 16 

### associated with it, so support for this action. 17

### I am a water resources manager with a 18 

### master's degree in that field. I'm also a risk 19 

### management professional. I do not speak on 20 

### behalf of the Unitarian Universalist Association. 21 

### However, I am going to the Council of Parties, 22104

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### COP21, in Paris, in 2 weeks, as a member of the 1 

### Civil Society and a credentialed observer on 2 

### behalf of the Unitarian Universalist Association. 3 

### I first learned of climate change in 4 

### 1991, when I was in graduate school, studying 5 

### water resources, and my son was 3. He is now 27. 6 

### Twenty-four years later the problem has only 7 

### continued to magnify, so very disturbing. Also, 8 

### I have been very active with the faith-based 9 

### communities, with lots of associations in my 10 

### region, which is Washington, D.C., area, and 11 

### worked together also when Pope Francis came to 12 

### the United States, worked together and 13 

### participated and expressed and amplified his 14 

### voice from the encyclical, Laudato Si, 15 

### emphasizing the imperative to act for climate 16 

### justice, respond urgently to climate change. 17

### Well, and those reasons are pretty -- 18 

### they've been stated very well, and that is those 19 

### who have done the least to cause climate change 20 

### will be impacted the most. They will be hurt 21 

### first and worst. Those that are the most 22105

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### vulnerable with the least ability to adapt are 1 

### the ones who will suffer the most, at least 2 

### initially. 3 

### So I come to you because I am a mother, 4 

### I'm a member of the faith-based community, I have 5 

### a science background, and with my risk management 6 

### background I also know how important it is, and 7 

### how compelled we are to act early to limit the 8 

### consequences of climate change. 9 

### In Lima, former Senator Kerry, Secretary 10 

### of State Kerry said, "Look, a global climate 11 

### treaty is not going to solve climate change. 12 

### However, climate change will not be solved 13 

### without one." Obama, President Obama stated that 14 

### "our generation is the first to experience 15 

### climate change and the last generation who can do 16 

### anything about it." 17

### Climate change must be addressed 18 

### globally. The Clean Power Plan is the 19 

### cornerstone of the U.S. position to meet our 20 

### carbon targets, INDCs, as part of that global 21 

### agreement. So the Clean Power Plan, along with 22106

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### other actions we're taking -- however this a part 1 

### of meeting our global climate agreement, INDCs -- 2 

### is essential. 3 

### Therefore -- oh, and just on that note, 4 

### over 150 countries have already submitted their 5 

### carbon targets, and there are, you know, not too 6 

### many left to go. But, unfortunately, the 7 

### calculation shows that we will still hit -- is 8 

### that yellow for me? Okay. Okay. So we will 9 

### still get to 2.7 degrees of global warming, 10 

### exceeding the current industrial level. That is 11 

### unacceptable. That will just basically undermine 12 

### life support systems as we know it. 13

### So we have to not only meet our targets, 14 

### we have to improve on our targets. Without the 15 

### federal plan and model rules, those states that 16 

### do not step up to participating in the plan will 17 

### have a solid regulation to meet and follow. And 18 

### I thank you so much for letting me testify. 19

### MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. Thank you for 20 

### your time. 21

### MS. MARLIN: Yes, things are changing. 22107

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### Well, I mean, they're still following through 1 

### with the Paris Climate Agreement but it's not 2 

### going to be quite as envisioned. Thank you. 3 

### MR. MITCHELL: I believe we are expecting 4 

### a few people in just a few minutes, so we'll stay 5 

### in place for the time being. Thank you. 6 

### [Pause.] 7 

### MR. MITCHELL: Dave, would you just check 8 

### one more time for us? 9 

### ATTENDEE: [Inaudible comment.] 10

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Then we will take a 11 

### 15-minute break and reconvene at 3:50. 12

### [Break taken from 3:37 to 4:01 p.m.] 13

### MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Reefe. Thank you for 14 

### coming to give your comments. You'll have 5 15 

### minutes to speak, and we have the indicator light 16 

### here. When it turns yellow you have 1 minute 17 

### left, and when it turns red, that will indicate 18 

### that the 5 minute are up. And if you would 19 

### kindly begin your testimony by stating your name 20 

### and spelling your fist and last name for the 21 

### court reporter. 22108

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### MR. REEFE: Can we wait to start the 1 

### time, because I realized my pages are not in 2


### order. 3 

### MR. MITCHELL: Well, yes, and while you 4 

### do that I'll take the time to give you some 5 

### additional instruction. 6 

### MR. REEFE: Okay. 7 

### MR. MITCHELL: If you would like to 8 

### provide a hard copy today of any materials for 9 

### the record, you can leave them with the court 10 

### reporter. 11

### MR. REEFE: Okay. 12

### MR. MITCHELL: And if you would like to 13 

### do that today, or later, you can submit 14 

### additional written comments to the record, and we 15 

### have instructions out at our table with where and 16 

### when to send your comments by. The comment 17 

### period closes -- I'm trying to spin this out for 18 

### you -- our comment period closes on January 21st. 19

### MR. REEFE: Okay. Well, you know, I can 20 

### see it's quite busy today. What happens if I go 21 

### over a couple of minutes, a minute or so? 22109

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### MR. MITCHELL: A minute or so would be 1 

### fine. To be fair to everyone we have to limit it 2 

### to 5 minutes. 3 

### MR. REEFE: Right. I'm not going to read 4 

### all this because obviously it's longer than 5 5 

### minutes. 6 

### MR. MITCHELL: So, are you ready to 7 

### satellite art? 8 

### MR. REEFE: One second. Sorry. 9 

### MR. MITCHELL: That's okay. 10

### MR. REEFE: Would you guys like a written 11 

### copy? There's a Part 1 and a Part 2, and I'm 12 

### only going to read Part 1. 13

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Thank you. 14

### MR. REEFE: Sorry if I have a little bit 15 

### of hyperbole, but I'm going to try to be 16 

### persuasive. 17

### MR. MITCHELL: We will consider all 18 

### comments, written or oral. 19

### MR. REEFE: Okay. 20

### MR. MITCHELL: When you're ready. 21

### MR. REEFE: Hi. My name is Jim Reefe. 22110

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### I'm visiting from Peachtree City, Georgia, and I 1 

### have a few comments. Thank you for inviting me 2 

### to speak today. 3 

### MR. MITCHELL: Could you spell your name 4 

### for the court reporter? 5 

### MR. REEFE: The name is James P. Reefe. 6 

### That's R-e-e-f as in Frank-e. 7 

### Given what we know today, with every 8 

### climatic indicator, where every climatic 9 

### indicator is turning radically against us, is it 10 

### right of the U.S. government to subsidize carbon11 

### based, industrial revolution technology at the 12 

### expense of the biosphere? 13

### Let me digress. In 1968, I rode with my 14 

### family up the New Jersey Turnpike from Delaware 15 

### to Boston. Passing New York City we passed 16 

### Elizabeth, New Jersey. We called it "smelly 17 

### Elizabeth." Big oil and big chemical plants were 18 

### there. The air was not fit to breathe. The EPA 19 

### fixed that. Big oil didn't fix it. Big 20 

### chemicals didn't fix it. The EPA fixed it with 21 

### the Clean Air Act, signed into law by Richard M. 22111

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### Nixon. At the time, was it popular with big 1 

### business? No. Did they say it would impose 2 

### undue burden on the business? Yes, the did. Did 3 

### they say it would put them out of business? 4 

### Sure, they did. Are there still oil and 5 

### chemicals? Yes, there are, but as oil tech tends 6 

### to fade into obsolescence -- maybe not so much 7 

### longer. 8 

### The point is the EPA has the position, 9 

### the role, and the mandate to act in advocacy for 10 

### the environment. It is uniquely positioned to 11 

### judge the merits and make policy benefitting not 12 

### the polluting economic interests, as they already 13


### know how to advocate for themselves. No. The 14 

### EPA advocates for the otherwise unrepresented 15 

### interests. 16

### If we talk about restrictions on 17 

### emissions from coal, let us consider the pool of 18 

### possible options. For example, the state of 19 

### Texas generates 10 percent of the electrical 20 

### power supply with wind power, and they're not 21 

### even trying yet. From Harlingen to the 22112

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### Panhandle, there in Texas, the wind blows. The 1 

### wind blows mainly at night and the sun shines 2 

### during the day, and with that dynamic duo, it may 3 

### be that Texas, the home of the oil business in 4 

### the United States, goes on the power grid 5 

### completely renewable, first in the nation. 6 

### Georgia has offshore wind resource, ready 7 

### and available to be tapped. No technical barrier 8 

### there. The same companies that specialize in 9 

### developing offshore oil platforms want to put up 10 

### wind towers offshore Georgia. It is economic 11 

### opportunity sitting there waiting to be tapped. 12 

### Investment money is sitting there waiting for the 13 

### wind fields to open. Georgia, in addition, has 14 

### extremely high solar power generation potential, 15 

### also waiting to be tapped. 16

### Now, coming back to coal. Coal interests 17 

### may complain about the economics of burdensome 18 

### regulation, but this is disingenuous because, 19 

### like the egregious polluters of smelly Elizabeth 20 

### in the 1960s, in post-World War II America, they 21 

### understand that when they are allowed to pollute 22113

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### unregulated, it is the same as a subsidy. Why? 1 

### Because the cost of that pollution is borne not 2 

### by the company but by the people and the 3 

### environment. Those costs are off the books, 4 

### externalized. 5 

### Those costs are real, and in the case of 6 

### CO2, the cumulative costs will far exceed any 7 

### benefit that was ever booked burning that coal. 8 

### You and I both know that because of the lifetime 9 

### of CO2 in the atmosphere it is a pollutant that 10 

### will make us pay and pay and pay and pay. 11

### What is the cost of Great Smoky Mountains 12 

### ecosystem decimated by acid rain from coal-fired 13 

### power plants in the '70s? what is the cost of 14 

### mountaintop removal to extract the coal? What is 15 

### the cost of mercury pollution poisoning the fish 16 

### in our waterways, rending them unfit for human 17 

### consumptions? What is the cost of a plant frying 18 

### in its own manmade oven of a CO2 terrarium? 19

### Now, if we look at the economics, coal 20 

### books the profits and we book the costs, over and 21 

### over and over. This is nothing new. It is the 22114

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### fundamental characteristic of the economics of 1 

### environmental exploitation. It is universal to 2 

### these arguments. The economic interests book the 3 

### profits and realize the game. The commons books 4 

### the cost. Externalized costs are intrinsic to 5 

### the fossil fuels business plan. It works because 6 

### we let it. 7


### But the Earth cannot afford to let the 8 

### costs go unaccounted for any longer. The time 9 

### has come to internalize the cost of the 10 

### environment, on the books, for the fossil fuel 11 

### economic interests. Only then can the markets 12 

### support sound decision-making about the 13 

### allocation of resource and the selection of power 14 

### generation technology. Accepting the status quo 15 

### of externalized costs for fossil-fueled business, 16 

### we are, in fact, complicit in the failure of the 17 

### markets to judge the tradeoffs necessary for 18 

### proper allocation of resource, across the globe, 19 

### over time. Because the costs are spread 20 

### geographically and deferred, traditional economic 21 

### measures fail to properly consider them. 22115

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### Advocacy for the buck here and now is 1 

### easy. Advocacy for the commons everywhere and 2 

### now and into the distant future is difficult. It 3 

### is this difficult role that falls on the 4 

### professional ranks of the EPA. You are our last, 5 

### best, and only line of defense. You are our only 6 

### offense. Help us to correct the failures of cost 7 

### account that discount the damage to zero in spite 8 

### of all the evidence to the contrary. What we are 9 

### talking about is a point of no return. On a flat 10 

### earth, where if you navigate to close to the edge 11 

### you simply go over. Ecology is a battleship 12 

### running full bore, steering directly to the edge. 13 

### Everyone left the wheel house. Now we ask the 14 

### EPA to pick up the gauntlet, use it as a 15 

### battering ram, and get back into the wheelhouse 16 

### to correct the course -- now, before it is too 17


### late. 18

### In the U.S., the EPA is the mediating 19 

### force, the check and the balance, the 20 

### counterpoint to the powerful economic advocacy of 21 

### commercial enterprise, in this case of the fossil 22116

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### fuel business, some of the most profitable 1 

### businesses on the planet, only because they don't 2 

### book their costs. 3 

### Here today I will make a prediction. 4 

### With all economic indicators trending radically 5 

### against us and none trending for us, whatever you 6 

### do here today will pale in comparison to the 7 

### radical and sweeping changes that will very soon 8 

### be considered mandatory and necessary to save the 9 

### biosphere. 10

### MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Reefe, I'm sorry. We 11 

### do need to ask you to close up your comments. 12

### MR. REEFE: Okay. Let me jump to the 13 

### end. Was that 5 minutes already? 14

### MR. MITCHELL: Yes -- 6 now. 15

### MR. REEFE: Oh, okay. Wow. 16

### MR. MITCHELL: Almost 7, so, yeah, if you 17 

### would please close your comments. 18

### MR. REEFE: I'm sorry. 19

### MR. MITCHELL: And we will consider all 20 

### of your comments in the record. 21

### MR. REEFE: And to that end, I ask my 22117

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### government and my EPA, having done the good deed 1 

### in the past, do you have the fortitude and the 2 

### wherewithal to act in fine stead with the good 3 

### traditions of the EPA, and advocate for every 4 

### living creature walking the planet. Please 5 

### advocate for us. Thank you. 6 

### MR. MITCHELL: Thank you for your 7 

### comments. Do we have other questions? 8 

### [No audible response.] 9 

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Thank you very much 10 

### for you time. We appreciate it. Again, if you 11 

### want to submit these in writing through the 12 

### docket process you can do that as well. Thank 13



### you. 14

### Our next commenter is -- and pardon me if 15 

### I say this incorrectly -- Kaylon Paterson and Ian 16 

### Karra. Would you join us at the desk here. So 17 

### we'll each have 5 minutes to talk, and if you 18 

### would start by stating your name and spelling 19 

### your name for the court reporter, and if you have 20 

### hard copies of materials you would like to leave 21 

### with us today, please leave them with the court 22118

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### reporter. So go ahead. 1 

### And if you're not aware, we have a red, 2 

### green, and yellow light, yellow meaning you have 3 

### 1 minute left, and red, of course, meaning stop. 4 

### Thank you. 5 

### MR. KARRA: Hi. My name is Ian Karra. 6 

### That's I-a-n, last name is K-a-r-r-a. I am the 7 

### organizing representative with the Beyond Coal 8 

### Campaign with the Sierra Club for the state of 9 

### Georgia. So I wanted to share a little bit about 10 

### why I am in favor of a strong and just federal 11 

### implementation plan, particularly being a life12 

### long resident of Georgia. I've been a resident 13 

### of Georgia for 20 years. 14

### My mother is from Lima, Peru. She 15 

### emigrated to this country in the '70s, after the 16 

### passage of the Clean Air Act. That wasn't the 17 

### reason, but where she grew up, in Lima, it was 18 

### such a bad place for air quality. Smog was 19 

### particularly a huge problem, so her and her five 20 

### sisters were never allowed to go outside and play 21 

### outside because the air quality was so bad. So 22119

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### that's something that she has recounted to me, 1 

### that when she emigrated to the United States for 2 

### better economic opportunities, clean air was 3 

### something that was a co-benefit, that she didn't 4 

### really expect, and had access to for the first 5 

### time in her life, in her 30s. 6 

### Now I am an environmentalist myself. I 7 

### wish on pushing for cleaner energy sources, lower 8 

### carbon sources of energy, and at my previous 9 

### employer, Southface [ph], they conduct a clean 10 

### energy industry census, which found, in 2014, 11 

### that over 19,000 jobs were provided through the 12 

### clean energy industry in Georgia, and that 13 

### includes jobs in the solar industry, wind 14 

### manufacturing, and energy efficiency, in 15 

### particular, is a huge part of that. By contrast, 16 

### Georgia Power employs 8,300 or thereabouts, 17 

### throughout the state. So it's a fallacy that the 18 

### Clean Power Plan will be a job-killer. Following 19 

### the passage of the Clean Air Act we heard these 20 

### same concerns that jobs would be destroyed, that 21 

### electricity rates would go up, and it would wreak 22120

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### havoc on the economy. 1 

### So we're kind of in a similar position 2 

### right now, where we're creating this false 3 

### dichotomy between environment and economy, that 4 

### doesn't need to exist. Clearly the jobs that the 5 

### clean energy industry provides are substantial, 6 

### they're good jobs, they're full-time jobs, and 7 

### particular the solar industry in Georgia, in the 8 

### first quarter of 2015, the solar industry created 9 

### over 2,000 new jobs in Georgia. 10

### So I think that a strong and just fit 11 

### will be more than incentive enough for states to 12 

### comply with the Clean Power Plan. For the states 13 

### that are in opposition to the Clean Power Plan, 14 

### this is a hugely important backstop for these 15 

### states to emphasize renewables and energy 16 

### efficiency in meeting the compliance demands of 17


### the Clean Power Plan. 18

### So now I feel like I'm in a similar 19 

### position as my mother, as I'm on the frontier of 20 

### being faced with this choice between clean air 21 

### and good jobs. But she came to this country to 22121

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### be able to have access to both, and I think that 1 

### is still an option for Americans, and I hope that 2 

### through creating a strong and just fit that 3 

### focuses on meeting the emissions reductions, 4 

### goals, in the Clean Power Plan and going even 5 

### further beyond that, that we can help folks that 6 

### are in the most vulnerable communities, low7 

### income communities, communities of color, people 8 

### who are faced with negative health impacts, from 9 

### fossil fuel infrastructure, that they too can 10 

### have access to clean air and better jobs. 11

### Thank you for the opportunity to testify, 12 

### and I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you. 13

### MR. MITCHELL: Thank you for your 14 

### comments. Do you all have any questions? 15

### Ms. RUBINI: You cited a couple of 16 

### statistics in your remarks. If you could include 17 

### the source for those statistics in your written 18 

### comments that would be great. 19

### MR. KARRA: Sure, so particularly the 20 

### jobs numbers? Sure. 21

### MR. MITCHELL: If you don't have them 22122

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### today, the docket is open until the 21st of 1 

### January. You can submit them in writing. 2 

### MR. KARRA: And I will make sure to round 3 

### up others' comments by then too. 4 

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Thank you. Go 5 

### ahead, please. 6 

### MR. PATERSON: Good evening. My name is 7 

### Kaylon Paterson, K-a-y-l-o-n P-a-t-e-r-s-o-n. I 8 

### am a scientist and environmental activist. I'm 9 

### the founder of Amicus Terrae, an environmental 10 

### organization started 2 years ago, and I'm here 11 

### today to speak on behalf of myself as well as the 12 

### small island nation of Trinidad and Tobago, which 13 

### is directly affected by whatever this decision 14 

### is. 15

### So to begin with, I'd like to say that 16 

### clean air is definitely an aspect of 17 

### environmental justice that needs to be addressed, 18 

### because environmental justice is for everyone and 19 

### it has not been addressed. It has been ignored 20 

### largely for a long time, and so as we move 21 

### towards a new climate change agreement, climate 22123

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### policy, I call to anyone in Paris this year, the 1 

### hope is that environmental justice will be more 2 

### largely observed and, you know, be made to be 3 

### more important, especially as a civil right, as a 4 

### right for humans. 5 

### I'd like to say that being born and 6 

### raised in a different country, I was surrounded 7 

### by a lot of nature, a lot of ecology environment, 8 

### and so when I came over here -- yes, I am a 9 

### citizen -- when I came over here I was thrown 10 

### back by the lack of, you know, any formal policy 11 

### that protected what is left in America. And so I 12 

### continue to work towards, you know, my 13 

### environmental work, towards, you know, preserving 14 

### the world as best as I can, preserving the 15 

### environment, and the more I work towards that is 16 

### the more I realize that there are not many people 17 

### who care. There's not a lot of change being 18


### done. 19

### And so now, as this policy comes up, we 20 

### realize that, okay, there is a possibility that 21 

### we can get people to care, and so even if they 22124

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### continue not to care, at least the government is 1 

### forcing people to care, which is something that 2 

### needs to happen, because, honestly, the world is 3 

### going south, in terms of temperature, in terms of 4 

### everything, and if we don't do something now 5 

### there's not going to be a lot of air to breathe, 6 

### there's not going to be my island for you guys to 7 

### visit when you go on vacation, there's not going 8 

### to be anything else. So that's why I'm here 9 

### testifying. 10

### That's pretty much all I have to say. 11

### MR. MITCHELL: Thank you very much. 12 

### Questions? Follow-up? 13

### [No audible response.] 14

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Well, thank you, 15 

### Mr. Paterson. We appreciate it. 16

### MR. PATERSON: Thank you all for taking 17 

### the time. 18

### MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, and we do have 19 

### two more speakers, if they will come up. We have 20 

### Jessica Wang and Gary Harris. Is Garry Harris 21 

### here? Oh, I'm sorry. There you are. Are you 22125

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### ready? 1 

### Well, we'll let Jessica start, Ms. Wang 2 

### start. Would you please start by saying your 3 

### name and spelling your name for the court 4 

### reporter, and if you have any hard copy materials 5 

### you would like for us to take today, you can 6 

### leave a copy of it with the court reporter. You 7 

### can also submit comments by the 21st of January 8


### to our docket. 9 

### MS. WANG: Okay. 10

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay? So go ahead. 11

### MS. WANG: I'm Jessica Wang. 12 

### J-e-s-s-i-c-a W-a-n-g. I just wrote this now so 13 

### it's a little bit rough. The EPA action on 14 

### climate change through the Clean Power Plan is an 15 

### important first step, but it must be further 16 

### strengthened to meet the scale of the challenge, 17 

### and it must be designed and implemented in a way 18 

### that is both science-based and just. 19

### First, EPA and states must comply with 20 

### Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which 21 

### prohibits racial discrimination by those that 22126

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### receive federal funds. As such, EPA must develop 1 

### a process that ensures that there will be no 2 

### discriminatory effects when the plan is 3 

### implemented. To do this, they must regulate 4 

### power plants and not the states. 5 

### The responsibility for meeting 6 

### performance standards must be placed on each 7 

### individual power plant. If EPA does not put the 8 

### responsibility where it belongs by regulating the 9 

### plants, it leaves open the opportunity for unjust 10 

### pollution trading schemes to arise. These 11 

### essentially allow emission reduction in one 12 

### community to justify continued pollution in 13 

### another, and these other communities are often 14 

### where low-income and people of color live. No 15 

### climate plan should cause the most vulnerable to 16 

### suffer the greatest from pollution. 17

### Second, waste-based biomass and other 18 

### forms of biomass incineration, as evidenced by 19 

### EPA's eGRID database, release significant amounts 20 

### of CO2 and should not be considered a low-carbon 21 

### alternative. Only truly clean and just forms of 22127

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### energy like solar and wind, along with energy 1 

### efficiency programs, should be considered. We 2 

### cannot seriously address climate change if we are 3 

### switching from one form of dirty energy to 4


### another. 5 

### MR. MITCHELL: Thank you. Do you have 6 

### any questions for Ms. Wang? 7 

### [No audible response.] 8 

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Thank you. All 9 

### right. Go ahead, please. 10

### MR. HARRIS: Good afternoon. My name is 11 

### Garry Harris. I'm Managing Director for the 12 

### Center for Sustainable Communities. That's 13 

### Garry, G-a-r-r-y, last name is Harris, 14 

### H-a-r-r-i-s. And I come to this forum this 15 

### afternoon with more than three decades experience 16 

### in energy and environmental matters, having 17 

### worked at nearly 100 power stations around the 18 

### world, in terms of instruction, engineering 19 

### procurement, and operations, assessment. So I 20 

### keenly understand how power plants operate and 21 

### how they can perhaps provide emissions to the 22128

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### environment which are harmful and may have 1 

### harmful impact, both in the short term and the 2 

### long term. I did that from a regulatory 3 

### perspective for a number of years. 4 

### I come to the hearing this afternoon both 5 

### learned and experienced in terms of power plant 6 

### operations, and have also been engaged in nearly 7 

### 60 different events and activities around the 8 

### Clean Power Plan since its inception nearly 2 9 

### years ago. So I thoroughly understand that the 10 

### problem is that climate disproportionately 11 

### impacts low-income communities, and particularly 12 

### communities of color. Here in Atlanta we've 13 

### helped to start organizations called the Just 14 

### Energy Circle of the Georgia Alliance for 15 

### Environmental Justice and several others which 16 

### focus on this particular problem of power plant 17 

### emissions and their impacts on communities of 18


### color. 19

### Climate change threatens the health and 20 

### wealth of communities throughout the United 21 

### States -- floodings, severe heat waves, exposure 22129

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### to air pollutants, allergens, and extreme weather 1 

### events, and food scarcity will increase without 2 

### bold interventions. We personally here have 3 

### worked with FEMA and NOAA and others in something 4 

### called Weather Rating [ph] Nation, which is 5 

### trying to prepare vulnerable communities for 6 

### these particular impacts as well. 7 

### The Clean Power Plan represents an 8 

### unprecedented opportunity to address the 9 

### environmental inequities in most impacted 10 

### communities. The plan can also provide multiple 11 

### benefits and help alleviate long-standing 12 

### economic social problems, including unemployment, 13 

### dis-investment, balance, and blight. 14

### The federal implementation plan should 15 

### take full advantage of this opportunity by 16 

### adopting policies that make long-term investments 17 

### into communities disproportionately impacted by 18 

### pollution and economic stress. The federal plan 19 

### should act not only as a backstop for 20 

### noncompliant states but should provide a model 21 

### for all states on how the plan can minimize the 22130

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### pain and maximize the gain for impacted 1 

### communities. 2 

### Equity -- equity -- must be at the center 3 

### of policies addressing climate change. The 4 

### federal plan should include policy choices and 5 

### implementation approaches that specifically take 6 

### equity into account. Again, we formed the Just 7 

### Energy Circle here which focuses on energy 8 

### equity. Also, we head up the ecodistricts here 9 

### in Atlanta which, again, has equity as its core 10 

### and also climate and resilience as well. So 11 

### we're well leverage and are taking actions in 12 

### this space as well, because of climate change. 13

### We applaud the EPA for recognizing that 14 

### there are important equity considerations in how 15 

### the varying pollution allowances are allocated by 16 

### a government agency. The EPA requested comment 17 

### on alternatives to giving away virtually all the 18 

### valuable pollution allowance to blues [ph] for 19 

### free. We look forward to engaging on this topic 20 

### to ensure that the Clean Power Plan generates 21 

### value and economic opportunity for communities. 22131

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### Communities of color and communities of 1 

### low incomes must receive net economic 2 

### environmental benefits. The allowances created 3 

### and any revenues generated by the implementation 4


### of the Clean Power Plan should be used to ensure 5 

### disproportionately impacted communities receive 6 

### net economic and environmental benefits. 7 

### Policies and programs within the federal 8 

### implementation plan, in addition to any revenues 9 

### committed or generated by such programs should 10 

### maximize environmental, social, economic benefits 11 

### in impacted communities. 12

### So, again, I'm here in support of the 13 

### Clean Power Plan, having experience in power 14 

### plant operations, having organized nearly eight 15 

### environmental entities here in Atlanta area 16 

### around those issues, having attended and 17 

### participated in nearly 60 activities and events 18 

### around the Clean Power Plan with passion and 19 

### earnest, but would plead to you to hear these 20 

### comments today and act accordingly. 21

### MR. MITCHELL: Thank you for your 22132

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### comments. I don't have any follow-up? Do you? 1 

### [No audible response.] 2 

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Well, thank you, 3 

### and let me remind you that the comment period is 4 

### open until January 21st, and if you would like to 5 

### submit written comments today you can give them 6 

### to the court reporter or provide them to the 7 

### docket by the 21st of January. 8 

### Thank you very much. Do we have any 9 

### other speakers at the moment? 10

### [No audible response.] 11

### It is 4:29 and we will stay in session. 12 

### Well, I'll tell you what. Let's take a 10-minute 13


### break and we'll come back at 4:40. 14

### [Break taken from 4:30 to 5:02.] 15

### MR. MITCHELL: You are Mr. Holloway? 16


### MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes. 17

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. And who is this 18 

### with you? 19

### MR. HOLLOWAY: Dylan. 20

### MR. MITCHELL: Dylan. Hey, Dylan. How 21 

### are you? Can you say hello? 22133

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### MR. HOLLOWAY: He's scared. 1 

### MR. MITCHELL: Oh, okay. Don't be 2 

### scared, Dylan. 3 

### Mr. Holloway, thank you for joining us. You are 4 

### our last speaker today. You will have 5 minutes 5 

### to talk, and if you would kindly begin by stating 6 

### your name and if you would spell your name, first 7 

### and last, for our court reporter, and then we 8 

### have a light here that's green, yellow means you 9 

### have 1 minute left, and red, of course, means 10 

### stop. And you are welcome to submit in writing 11 

### anything you have today, if you want, and you can 12 

### always submit comments to the record by January 13 

### 21st, and we have instructions outside for doing 14


### that. 15

### So you can go ahead and start when you're 16 

### ready, please. 17

### MR. HOLLOWAY: My name is Chris Holloway. 18 

### That's C-h-r-i-s H-o-l-l-o-w-a-y. 19

### So what I would like to talk about is 20 

### sort of a left-field issue in a way, and to me 21 

### it's sort of the elephant in the room, in that 22134

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### the truly cleanest energy possible is the energy 1 

### not used, and I believe that the only real 2 

### solution, especially with continued population 3 

### growth, is simply to reduce energy consumption 4 

### and not to look for technological fixes. 5 

### Ted Trainer, the co-founder of the 6 

### Simplicity Institute, has a book called 7 

### "Renewable Energy Cannot Sustain a Consumer 8 

### Society," and I don't even have to explain what 9 

### the book -- to go into any detail about it. I 10 

### think the title says it all, especially with 11 

### combining -- in terms of cleanliness and to help 12 

### the environment to help the climate. Considering 13 

### Obama's approach of all of the above, in terms of 14 

### energy sources, I just don't see how it can 15 

### really work, and that there is what I think is a 16 

### more sensible solution and it's to basically curb 17 

### demand and not to work from a position, and 18 

### assumption that demand is only going to increase. 19

### There are low-tech solutions and it is a 20 

### product, I believe, of culture in general, to 21 

### seek high-tech, but I think there is more of a 22135

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### short-cut to it that can be curbed. Samuel 1 

### Alexander, who is the other co-founder of the 2 

### Simplicity Institute, says, "Even ethical 3 

### problems are assumed to have high-tech rather 4 

### than behavioral solutions." 5 

### So I believe it is a false hope to look 6 

### for techno-fixes and to address supply side 7 

### responses versus demand side responses, because I 8 

### believe in both. And I believe that government 9 

### agencies have the ability to simply make 10 

### suggestions and already do, such as the kind of 11 

### age-old and somewhat cliché idea of taking 12 

### shorter showers or turning the lights off when 13 

### you leave the room. 14

### I believe more impactful suggestions 15 

### could be made, such as local systems like the 16 

### spreading, wildly popular transition movement in 17 

### the UK, also some sites in the U.S. as well, that 18 

### make energy moot, and simply reducing and just by 19 

### redesigning systems for food and low-scale, 20 

### small-scale private of community-based energy 21 

### generation, and even using simply technology, 22136

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### some of which we've had for hundreds or even 1 

### thousands of years, but is simply not in vogue 2 

### currently. 3 

### I believe that's what we can really hope for, 4 

### again, in terms of growth in every single 5 

### department of human life, culture, society. I 6 

### think that's the solution. 7 

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Is that it? Thank 8


### you. 9 

### So let me just ask you. You mentioned a 10 

### couple of references, which you don't have today 11 

### with you, I would assume. So if you would kindly 12 

### take the opportunity to write into our docket and 13 

### give us the references, or copies if you have 14 

### them, of your comments and the citations that you 15 

### have, so that we can take that into 16 

### consideration. 17

### MR. HOLLOWAY: I'd like to. I just found 18 

### out about this last night. 19

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Great. Thank you. 20 

### So we'll give you a fact sheet when you go out, 21 

### and back, on the back it says how to comment, and 22137

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### it tells you where to send your materials. And 1 

### if you want to leave any of what you already have 2 

### today you can leave it with the court reporter. 3 

### MR. HOLLOWAY: Okay. 4 

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay. All right. Thank 5


### you. 6 

### MR. HOLLOWAY: Thank you. 7


### MR. MITCHELL: You're our last and best 8 

### witness. Do you want to say anything? 9


### MR. HOLLOWAY: He doesn't talk much 10



### anyway. 11

### [Laughter.] 12

### MR. MITCHELL: All right. Well, thank 13 

### you. And so today's hearing is officially 14 

### closed. Thanks to everyone who was here and 15 

### helped. 16

### [Whereupon, at 5:08 p.m., the Public 17 

### Hearing concluded.] 18

19

20

21

22