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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute

 2111 Wilson Blvd

 Suite 500

 Arlington, Virginia

 Tuesday, June 11, 2013

 8:11 a.m.

Reported by: Natasha Thomas,

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 FACILITATOR

3 Neil Eisner, Navigant Consulting

4

5 PARTICIPANTS

6 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration

7 Institute

8 Timothy Ballo, EarthJustice

9 Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning

10 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy

11 John Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy

12 Mary Dane, Traulsen

13 Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc.

14 Mark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products

15 Geoffrey Halley, SJI Consultants, Inc.

16 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

17 Jill Hootman, Trane

18 John Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc.

19 Diane Jakobs, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

20 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay

21 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar

22 Michael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories LLC
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 Aris Marantan, U.S. Department of Energy

3 Peter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development

4 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

5 Frank Myers, Pvi Industries, Inc.

6 Massoud Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc.

7 Michael Rivest, U.S. Department of Energy

8 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient

9 Economy

10 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation

11 Frank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

12 Refrigeration Institute

13 Phillip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products

14 Corey Tucker, U.S. Department of Energy

15 Robert Whitwell, Carrier Corporation

16 Wes Wostal, ClimateMasters, Inc.

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. EISNER: Laura's emailed us. She has had

3 trouble getting to the Metro this morning. She is on

4 her way in the Metro now, probably will not be here for

5 a while. So we're going to start off with the slides

6 we were on last night and talk about some issues that

7 DOE has on those slides.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Like I said, we are going to

9 take it from the top. So we talked after the meeting.

10 And we have made a few policy decisions I think we can

11 go through. We are going to have to punt on a couple,

12 but I think we will have Mike speak to what we talked

13 about last time one by one. And we can all talk about

14 it as a group as we go.

15 MR. RIVEST: So I think when Laura is here,

16 there will be a conversation about the exact mechanism

17 for having some of these options not part of the

18 testing, not part of the rating. So she mentioned that

19 it may not be an amendment to the basic model

20 definition and may, instead, be guidance that she

21 issues for certification and enforcement purposes. It

22 may be guidance to the test procedure itself, so things
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1 that could be done relatively quickly. But that gives

2 you guys some certainty. So I won't speak to the

3 mechanism at this point because it's not certain, but

4 just in terms of what is in/what's out.

5 For the copper, copper coils, the

6 Department's tentative position is that they would be

7 subject to testing.

8 MR. EISNER: Do you want a discussion on

9 these or do you need to --

10 MR. RIVEST: I think what I would like to do

11 is go through everything we talked about yesterday,

12 just give you where the thoughts are. And then we

13 could have conversation about that. So here the

14 decision would be to exempt economizers from testing.

15 The ventilation energy recovery systems would be exempt

16 from testing. Also, seat recovery, reclaimed coils, and

17 thermal storage would be exempt. Coated coils, no

18 decision has been made. We are agonizing on that one.

19 Correction capacitors would be exempted. Hail guards

20 would be exempted. This is a long conversation. I

21 mean, I think this is going to be exempted. That's as

22 far as I got.
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1 We can give you a tentative position on

2 these. I mean, there are some of these that we think we

3 know enough to have a position. And there are others

4 we don't think we know enough or that we think we

5 should have more discussion about. This would be

6 exempted, variable frequency drives or means by which

7 fan speed can be reduced, thereby saving energy.

8 That's why we need to talk about condenser fan motor

9 options. We just want to talk about that to understand

10 what is bundled in there, how that works.

11 Steam hydronic heat options would be

12 excluded. Lower BTU gas options, we don't know what

13 that means.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Actually, you know, this

15 one I think was put in there -- you know, this to me is

16 more information than anything; right?

17 MR. RIVEST: Yes.

18 MR. WHITWELL: We do have different heat

19 sizes or heating capacities that we would offer in a

20 product. And, of course, the higher the heat output,

21 the more heat exchanger is in there. But I think that

22 generally the industry practice is to rate with the
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1 larger heat.

2 MR. RIVEST: Highest heat --

3 MR. WHITWELL: Right. So we actually get

4 some extra performance, if you will, with the lower

5 heat options.

6 MR. RIVEST: So you are taking this off your

7 list?

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, I think this comes off

9 our list.

10 MR. RIVEST: All right.

11 MR. FLY: Yes. This is probably more for

12 information.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: So you are already rating it

14 at the --

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes. I mean, we were

16 trying to be complete on the list of things.

17 MR. RIVEST: This one we will have to talk

18 about: gas reheat.

19 MR. FLY: Actually, that one and the

20 reclaimed coil are almost the same. That's another

21 coil in the air stream. So it kind of goes with the --

22 MR. RIVEST: But we'll have to talk about it.
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1 MR. FLY: Yes.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. We can --

3 MR. FLY: Don't confuse --

4 MR. RIVEST: It's not an external source,

5 though. It's part of the --

6 MR. FLY: Yes. It's not an external source.

7 MR. RIVEST: And it's reheating stuff it just

8 cooled.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And it's just --

10 MR. RIVEST: It sounds efficient, but --

11 MR. WHITWELL: It is to prevent overcooling

12 of the space; right?

13 MR. RIVEST: Right.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Because there are times when

15 the building needs to be dehumidified, you need to take

16 humidity out, but you don't need sensible cooling. So

17 this is a way to do that without having a separate --

18 MR. RIVEST: And this is a good way.

19 MR. WHITWELL: -- standalone dehumidification

20 system.

21 MR. FLY: I mean, it's a good way in the fact

22 that it is using recycled heat with recycling heat off
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1 the condenser that normally you would be throwing away

2 on the condenser side. This normally doesn't operate

3 at the best condition. 8067, there's an ameliorable

4 reason to be dehumidifying and be for a higher load or

5 a lower, typically a lower, space.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Alternative approaches could

7 be like what Harvey talked about yesterday where he's

8 got a dehumidifier with a compressor and it's just

9 running, taking moisture out of the air and dumping

10 heat into the space. So it's actually then you're

11 going to need to run cooling in order to offset that

12 heat.

13 MR. RIVEST: I don't have a thought even if

14 this is a good idea or not. So we can talk about this

15 a little longer.

16 This one we'll -- I mean, we understand for

17 high-static blowers that they would be oversized when

18 tested at the test procedure conditions, which means

19 they are not at their optimal conditions on their

20 loading curve. I think this may require some sort of

21 test procedure fix.

22 A blanket exemption, I don't know if that is
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1 a possibility or -- we just haven't talked about this,

2 what solutions there might be. Someone had mentioned

3 maybe some sort of chart that would allow you to

4 translate the efficiency at one static to another,

5 something like that.

6 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. The water

7 source heat pump ISO standard has the means to

8 normalize the fan power. So basically if you had the

9 bigger fan at a higher static, it subtracts it out as

10 part of the test procedure. It would be a test

11 procedure change. It would be a test procedure change.

12 MR. RIVEST: So DOE's preference would always

13 be to do a test procedure change and have the ability

14 to have the product tested than to have something

15 exempted.

16 MR. WHITWELL: So in a case like that, I

17 mean, it is going to take some time to do a test

18 procedure change; right?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

20 MR. RIVEST: So that's where Laura's

21 conversation about guidance --

22 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

2 MR. RIVEST: -- and how that might be

3 applicable --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

5 MR. RIVEST: -- if those are put in place

6 quickly --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Because I was trying to figure

8 out what is it. You know, if we hold these things off,

9 then how soon would this be, you know, enacted? I

10 think that all kind of goes into the timing of what --

11 MR. RIVEST: Yes.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- we would recommend in the

13 timing.

14 MR. RIVEST: Absolutely. And I think things

15 that are silent in the test procedure, it's easier to

16 write guidance than things that are going directly

17 against the test procedure.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

19 MR. RIVEST: So this may be something that is

20 not easily fixed.

21 MR. WHITWELL: And the ducted condensers is

22 the same as this in that there are units that have
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1 ductwork, you know, where they are installed inside the

2 building, and then you have to duct the condenser area.

3 And depending on the application and how long that

4 distance is, you might need some higher static fan

5 motors --

6 MR. RIVEST: Right.

7 MR. WHITWELL: -- higher motor pump.

8 MR. FLY: You might want to do a several-pack

9 procedure.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

11 MR. RIVEST: That one may be easier to

12 exempt, just in terms of --

13 MR. WHITWELL: Right now there isn't anything

14 in the test procedure --

15 MR. JOHNSON: That's just ducted, you know.

16 You ducted condensers. You also have -- if you want to

17 lower the sound level coming up with those condenser

18 fans, it would put some type of a silencing system on

19 top of that, which adds static to it.

20 MR. RIVEST: It's a separate module that is

21 put on top.

22 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, a separate module put on.
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1 MS. MEYERS: A lot of schools require that.

2 MR. RIVEST: Stuff that is separate is one

3 thing.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

5 MR. RIVEST: Motors that are integral to the

6 product --

7 MR. JOHNSON: But it would change the motor.

8 MR. RIVEST: You would change the motor --

9 MR. RIVEST: -- to be able to push through --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

11 MR. RIVEST: -- the silencer.

12 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

13 MS. MEYERS: A lot of sound requirements from

14 schools. And they require that silencing system.

15 MR. RIVEST: Could it be specified what

16 performance level you are trying to achieve. So it's

17 not just a claim of --

18 MR. JOHNSON: It's more of a sound level

19 you're trying to achieve and less of a performance

20 level.

21 MR. RIVEST: I mean sound reports.

22 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.
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1 MR. RIVEST: So if someone doesn't put some

2 contraption, claiming it's a sound attenuator --

3 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

4 MR. RIVEST: -- it really does nothing but

5 lower the standard.

6 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. Yes. I get where you are

7 coming from.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, she is right on levels.

9 I mean, there is a sound level, whatever the society

10 for architects is, AIA or whatever it is, and see 35 in

11 a classroom. So in order to achieve a noise criteria

12 of 35 in a classroom, which is --

13 MR. FLY: Actually, an ANSI standard.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. That's what I want. I

15 couldn't remember if we had gotten into ANSI standards.

16 MR. FLY: Yes.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: So in order to achieve that,

18 you have to do some of these things. And, yet, each of

19 them are not just -- I mean, you have to know how much

20 they are actually taking down that intrinsic value so

21 that the system is at the ANSI 35.

22 MR. RIVEST: Great. So it would have to be
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1 worded in a way that it's clear that this is achieving

2 some measure of utility.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, depending on the device

4 and how it's used. I mean, you know, it's not going to

5 say that everyone is like a .1 and that achieves this.

6 It is how it is used in the application on the unit.

7 MR. RIVEST: Great. Well, put yourself in

8 our shoes.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: I know. I'm just trying to

10 think of a way to --

11 MR. RIVEST: I think, you know, we're going

12 to have to come back to a lot of these, same with this

13 one, barometric relief. The fresh air damper, could

14 that just be handled with guidance in terms of keeping

15 them shut until they have that or --

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. On a lot of

17 things, there is sort of a thought that I'm not sure

18 how we both put in these special cases and encourage

19 improvements in the performance of these special cases.

20 There are a lot of ways I can think of conceptually to

21 do silencers, some of which will have a large impact on

22 fan energy. Some of them might take more space but
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1 have a smaller impact. And I hope we are being

2 sensitive to encouraging -- and I guess with dampers,

3 it is particularly the case -- encouraging treatment

4 that will help spur innovation to improve performance.

5 I'm not sure that the regulatory scalpel is the

6 appropriate -- the regulatory acts as the right scalpel

7 for that --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree.

9 MR. SACHS: -- that need, but I am very

10 conscious of it and looking for suggestions.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Maybe that is something

12 that better done through ASHRAE, through an ASHRAE 9500

13 committee, for example, you know, where you're looking

14 at the whole building; right, it's looking at the whole

15 building.

16 MR. SACHS: Yes. So you are thinking in

17 terms of the whole building ventilation energy

18 requirement, which would be intensive or incremental on

19 the RTUs, for example.

20 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, it's just a thought.

21 Thinking out loud, maybe that would be a better way to

22 do it than have the specific requirement on just the
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1 equipment.

2 MR. SACHS: So let it be the other guy's job.

3 MR. WHITWELL: No. I'm not saying that

4 because it would turn out to be something that we would

5 have to do on our equipment in order to help make sure

6 the building would comply; right? It's like a low leak

7 economizer requirement in California, for example.

8 MR. SACHS: Marshall, you don't know anything

9 about that; do you?

10 MR. HUNT: We like it.

11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I

12 have a question for the manufacturers of this kind of

13 equipment. Do competitive forces work to press towards

14 lower energy consumption in these kinds of options,

15 like they do generally, where someone comes out and has

16 a coated coil that ends up being more efficient than

17 someone else? Do they promote that? Is that

18 effective?

19 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I don't think we can

20 make efficiency claims for things like that, I think,

21 because it's not part of the --

22 MR. MYERS: Certainly things like damper
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1 leakage --

2 MR. FLY: Yes. You can make claims on

3 utility in the application but not efficiency. We

4 can't say that it increases the efficiency of the

5 product because it's not part of the test procedure, I

6 don't think.

7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I was

8 thinking more in terms of this manufacturer uses a

9 paint. We'll use that example. Paint has this heat

10 transfer factor. I use some super anodizing coating

11 that actually works and it has this coefficient of heat

12 transfer and then present that to the engineer that's

13 in the specification. Those kinds of things --

14 MR. FLY: I don't know that --

15 MR. MYERS: -- take place, but if you have a

16 good way of doing it --

17 MR. RIVEST: So ultimately, creating a

18 product class and doing a separate analysis would get

19 to that because it would adjust the standard level to a

20 level that is cost-effective. In other words, they

21 will have to put a -- you know, if it degrades the

22 performance by .3 of an EER based on the level of
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1 coating technology that must be cost-effective, the

2 standard would be set .3 below.

3 MR. SACHS: Mike?

4 MR. FLY: But if you get into -- let's say

5 you get a product class that is high-corrosion units --

6 high- corrosion is high corrosion -- and the Department

7 has the ability or the desire to regulate levels of

8 corrosion resistance. You know, you are kind of

9 wandering off the mandate.

10 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think we are talking

11 about regulating the anti-corrosive effective. I think

12 we are talking about regulating the --

13 MR. FLY: Efficiency requirement for that --

14 MS. BARHYDT: -- the efficiency requirement

15 for that.

16 MR. FLY: I don't know if you can separate

17 them.

18 MR. RIVEST: Well, how do you define it?

19 MR. FLY: How do you define it?

20 MR. RIVEST: How do you guys define it?

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So you're thinking that

22 there would be a race for a high-efficiency anti-
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1 corrosion product that might not provide --

2 MR. FLY: That would be very --

3 MR. WHITWELL: -- corrosion --

4 MR. FLY: -- corrosion protection.

5 MR. WHITWELL: -- protection.

6 MR. FLY: That would mean you just want to

7 get higher efficiency.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

9 MR. SACHS: We are talking about adopting an

10 in- hospital surgical procedure for trimming toenails.

11 The obvious solution to this is some guidance that

12 says, "If you can show that the pressure drop or the

13 heat transfer across your hyper coil is less than

14 somebody else's," you ought to be able to say that,

15 even though that is a factual statement outside of the

16 overall efficiency of the unit. It's a product

17 feature. And if you guys are going to go take them to

18 court for something for which they have experimental

19 evidence, this would be nuts.

20 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think we are talking

21 about doing that.

22 MR. SACHS: So we don't need in the case that
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1 Frank has brought up and similar ones the features that

2 add utility. A manufacturer can make a factual claim

3 about that utility, enhanced utility, of that feature.

4 In unbiased third party tests, high coil survives

5 saltwater exposure three times as long as the standard

6 coated coil.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. That has nothing to do

8 with efficiency. We don't relate that.

9 MR. SACHS: Our silencer uses -- what happens

10 if it's -- our silencer uses half the fan energy of the

11 other guys.

12 MS. BARHYDT: That I would have to think

13 about. I think it --

14 MR. SACHS: But please don't think too long.

15 MS. BARHYDT: I think it's probably okay.

16 actually, but I'd have to think about it.

17 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Laura.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. In

19 a way, there is already precedence set for allowing a

20 lesser efficiency with the gas/electric rooftop units

21 because there is an additional pressure drop over the

22 gas-fired heat exchanger. The gas-fired heat exchanger
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1 provides an additional type of heating capability and a

2 more efficient heating capability. And so in the same

3 way, this type of coil coating provides a better

4 utility of that system. So allowing maybe a lesser

5 efficiency, two-tenths or something like that, you

6 know, again, precedence already set for allowing that.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Right. It's a rulemaking issue

8 that we would have to deal with that way.

9 MR. DOPPEL: Yes.

10 MR. SACHS: Is that 90.1 and --

11 MR. DOPPEL: Yes.

12 MR. SACHS: -- or is that --

13 MR. DOPPEL: It's 90.1.

14 MR. SACHS: It's not something that DOE is --

15 MR. AMRANE: No. DOE has it, too.

16 MR. SACHS: DOE has it, too?

17 MR. DOPPEL: Yes.

18 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

19 MR. AMRANE: It took a long time, but --

20 MR. SACHS: That was redundant.

21 MR. RIVEST: High-efficiency air filtration.

22 I think we understand the concept here, that someone
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1 shouldn't be penalized because they want a very, very

2 fine filter, but, then, we wouldn't want the test

3 procedure to be done with a filter that is not a

4 realistic filter. So there has to be a filter for the

5 test. How does one define what the filter is if it's

6 not the one shipped for the product?

7 MR. WHITWELL: It could be the one shipped

8 for the product in some cases. When we say it's a

9 standard --

10 MR. JOHNSON: It's just that you might want

11 to take out all of the filters that are in there except

12 for the two-inch filter.

13 MR. WHITWELL: The standard two-inch filter.

14 MR. JOHNSON: It might be a two-inch pre15 filter. Most of the time I would think there's a pre16 filter that's a pretty low pressure drop. Then take

17 out all the other filters for a test.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, unless all of our units

19 are tested with a two-inch filter.

20 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. Good.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Because, you know, that's the

22 kind of standard we ship.
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1 MR. JOHNSON: It's possible you can do this

2 with a test procedure on what you call a modification

3 or a clarification.

4 MR. SACHS: Well, this is the question,

5 whether the additional drop is enough that you would

6 change the motor spec.

7 MR. JOHNSON: Well, yes. That, you know

8 what, is a good point.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: The motor for that gets

10 changed, too.

11 MR. JOHNSON: If we have a bunch of high12 efficiency filters in there, then we probably could

13 have a different fan and a different motor to handle

14 that.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Could that be a different

16 model number?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, those --

18 MR. JOHNSON: Well, no. It would be a

19 different aspect.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it would be a different

21 model number for the customer; right?

22 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.
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1 MR. FLY: It's indicated in the --

2 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, yes, yes.

3 MR. FLY: -- model number of the gas part.

4 It's also going to be -- I mean, we operate with an

5 extra filter, the energy standards that are set. And

6 even if you take the filters out, we may be in the

7 inappropriate operating point on the fan. We could be

8 in a much lower efficiency.

9 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

10 MR. FLY: We're running somewhere where we

11 wouldn't normally run.

12 MS. BARHYDT: So if you have changed out

13 several components, motors, fans, different -- to

14 address the filters, does it still meet your definition

15 of basic model? Is it the same basic model as the --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Refrigeration system hasn't

17 changed.

18 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, right. Refrigeration

19 hasn't changed.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So these are just the --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Air-moving devices.

22 MR. RIVEST: It was the quantity of air that
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1 was --

2 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. We used --

3 MR. RIVEST: -- was distinct from the amount

4 of energy requirement.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We used just the CFM.

6 Okay.

7 MR. RIVEST: It sounds like there is some

8 more thinking that has to happen here. So it's the

9 filters and the --

10 MR. WHITWELL: That's right. You can't just

11 change the filters because you wouldn't have the right

12 motor in there.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: No. You would be off on the --

14 MR. FLY: This is very interrelated to the

15 high- static fan.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Very much.

18 MR. FLY: It goes hand in hand.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Right, because the high-static

20 fan can be required because of increased internal

21 static pressure within the unit because of filters and

22 the dehumidification coils. And there are reheat
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1 coils, whatever. Plus, it can be impacted or required

2 because of the application where you might have longer

3 ductwork in the building itself. So it's a combination

4 of those two things that drive the requirement for the

5 different fan motors.

6 MS. BARHYDT: But it sounds like the way you

7 would address that would vary by manufacturer. It

8 would vary by model. It would vary by the type of

9 filter, that it's not something -- what I'm thinking of

10 in terms of dealing with it in terms of a test

11 procedure, that would be hard to do because --

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

13 MS. BARHYDT: -- it's going to be different

14 for --

15 MS. MEYERS: It varies by application.

16 MS. BARHYDT: -- for each one.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. It would be hard to do in

18 the test procedure because, you know, we are at those

19 lower statics for the test procedures so that the test

20 setup can happen consistently. You know, in order to

21 revive the fan motor curve, you would need completely

22 different setups in the test rooms.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: And they are not kind of set up

3 for what they would have to do. It's longer ductwork

4 and --

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So maybe, I mean, it

6 could be that it comes back to if DOE wanted to test

7 something like this, it would be to test the closest

8 equivalent, which would be with the standard filter and

9 the right fan motor for that internal static.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

11 MR. FLY: It's not always just the fan motor.

12 Sometimes it's actually the fan --

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes. True.

14 MR. FLY: -- because in larger --

15 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. Yes.

16 MR. FLY: -- equipment, we have a range of

17 fans that will fit. And we pick the fan that operates

18 at the highest efficiency.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Right. So that would be

20 looking at okay. Instead of ordering with the high21 efficiency filter option, you order with the standard

22 filter option and then whatever the builder says, you
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1 know, the sales tool says is a late motor for that

2 particular unit. Right.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: It is complicated.

4 MR. SACHS: It also feels to me like we've

5 got a bit of a collision of policy goals. On the one

6 hand, we really want to encourage the integration of

7 these functions, even though they increase fan energy.

8 On the other hand, the law doesn't differentiate

9 between internal static and external static.

10 MR. JOHNSON: Exactly.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

12 MR. SACHS: And it doesn't want anything

13 shipped in commerce from the factory that doesn't meet

14 minimal performance standard.

15 MALE SPEAKER: Well, couldn't there be like a

16 high-static test for these type units?

17 MR. FLY: That's kind of what we were talking

18 about before. I mean, the problem is when you get into

19 that, you have to have a map. You have to say that,

20 "My energy" -- you know, kind of like the fan guys have

21 done with FEG, like my fan energy follows it. My

22 static is this. My EER is that. My static is this.
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1 My EER is this, you know. And it changes everywhere

2 you're at. That's the only way you can rationalize to

3 do that. And I think that's probably outside the scope

4 of what you can do.

5 MR. WHITWELL: That would be part of a

6 rulemaking.

7 MR. FLY: And the coils are not coated coils.

8 MR. MYERS: Permutations become --

9 MR. FLY: These are complex engineered

10 products.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a little bit back to the

12 custom idea or the one-off. I mean, literally the

13 customer tells us what his external static is going to

14 be in his building, and we build a unit meant for him.

15 The next one going down the line is not the same one,

16 literally. I mean, there is never the same motor

17 combination. A fan motor, all of it is a different

18 combination. They're purchased for each one of these

19 customers to meet the specific needs of what is in the

20 unit and what is not in the unit and what's the

21 building.

22 MR. SACHS: Jill, it's starting to sound like
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1 we need to sit around and think about stuff that is not

2 even test procedure but regulatory or classes of

3 equipment for which the certification has to be a

4 performance map, rather than a single number. And it

5 may even be something that has to move toward a caf

6 approach of corporate-shipped efficiency, instead of

7 thinking about --

8 MS. MEYERS: I can tell you I did mention

9 that. I mean, I know for Rheem, we had probably

10 thousands of SKUs a year where the quantity is one.

11 The majority of our commercial SKUs, the quantity is

12 one because it is a special combination that that

13 person ordered.

14 It drives our manufacturing people nuts

15 because they want to build one thing going down the

16 line. And, you know, so we have this argument with

17 them all the time. This is commercial. It's

18 different. You know, so the majority because there are

19 so many different options --

20 MR. SACHS: This is a take-home lesson that

21 the metrics we settled on as a community in the 1970s

22 may not be appropriate.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And the alternative was

2 in the '70s as we would ship like one unit and one

3 combination. And then they would have a bunch of these

4 fan motor kits. And there were a bunch of shivs and

5 drives and included motors a lot of times in there.

6 And they would throw out literally what was shipped

7 from the factory. And they would put in these others

8 in the field in order to meet their applications. So

9 it was very wasteful because we didn't take back that

10 motor that we shipped. We didn't take back that motor.

11 So there was all these extra motors around. And it was

12 kind of --

13 MR. DOPPEL: But they did try to claim

14 warranty on them when they --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, they would try.

16 MR. SACHS: All right. So is this process

17 friendly to the thought that we might be making

18 recommendations that might even require legislative

19 consideration in the future, that we have got some sort

20 of a parking lot of things that are important for

21 industry evolution and --

22 MS. BARHYDT: You are all always free to, but
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1 we can't.

2 MR. AMRANE: That's a good idea, Harvey, but

3 at the same time, we know what the reality is of

4 changing the legislation and things like that, which --

5 MR. SACHS: At the risk of opening that card.

6 MR. AMRANE: Right. So at the same time, I

7 think we need to --

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

9 MR. AMRANE: We got to -- we are addressing

10 those issues again.

11 MR. SACHS: Absolutely.

12 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

13 MR. SACHS: But I am trying to think about

14 solutions that move us toward where we want to be.

15 MR. AMRANE: Absolutely. And I agree. I

16 think --

17 MR. EISNER: And recommendations from

18 industry to change legislation would help the agency

19 and industry and interest groups concerned with the

20 environment and energy. That would help the agency try

21 to propose some changes.

22 MR. FLY: That is what I think this working
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1 group is working on, but it's not an easy -- you know,

2 you can tell by the discussion here we don't have the

3 answer. We don't know what the map of the curve or

4 what it would be so that you could say map A is what I

5 want to regulate to.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

7 MR. FLY: We don't even know what it looks

8 like or how big do I draw the envelope around it. You

9 know, these are matters of the building.

10 MR. RIVEST: So just to get back to the

11 filters --

12 MR. RIVEST: -- so the whole point when we

13 were talking about how we handle the fact that some

14 motors have to be larger because they would be operated

15 at a higher static, they have to be tested and the test

16 procedure static is --

17 MR. WHITWELL: It varies depend on the

18 capacity size.

19 MR. RIVEST: Okay. And it's applicable to

20 what portion of your sales, you would say?

21 MS. HOOTMAN: In all honesty, not very much.

22 MR. FLY: At test procedures.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: At test procedures, that is.

2 MR. RIVEST: So one concern John has is that

3 when we are rating a product, you know, we are trying

4 to get some accurate measurement of its efficiency

5 compared to another product. So a product operated

6 high-static, even with comparably efficient motors,

7 would consume more energy. So its EER would be lower?

8 MR. WHITWELL: Would higher-static consume

9 more --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

11 MR. RIVEST: So in an ideal world, you would

12 have more than one static in the test procedure and you

13 would be maybe having two or three different statics.

14 And the rating would be based on the actual static that

15 was shipped to product in a --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure, correct.

17 MR. RIVEST: And the standard would be set

18 accordingly.

19 MS. MEYERS: The alternative is if these

20 manufacturers didn't offer that and you shipped the

21 unit with a regular motor. It would never satisfy the

22 --
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1 MR. RIVEST: I understand that, Karen, but

2 we'll test it.

3 MS. MEYERS: So you're using more energy.

4 MR. RIVEST: Karen, I understand that, but

5 what we're trying to make sure is that units that are

6 shipped with larger motors are shipped with efficient

7 larger motors. But that is all the Department is

8 trying to do.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I mean, in some ways,

10 they are. The motors themselves are because, of

11 course, they are regulated.

12 MS. MEYERS: Right.

13 MR. RIVEST: Okay. Well, we can't ship.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. All motors are regulated

15 right now and covered under --

16 MR. RIVEST: Right.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: So, you know, they are

18 regulated. They are already at, you know, some pretty

19 high standards, 97s to 98s and all of that, for most of

20 these motors. So the motors themselves are already

21 there. It's just that these shivs, drives, et cetera,

22 that we have to put on there to achieve those higher
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1 statics. So we're putting on shivs and those kinds of

2 things. So no matter what motor we are talking --

3 MR. RIVEST: That standard already takes into

4 account the cost-effectiveness.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

6 MR. FLY: Now, one thing to bring up, though,

7 that motor is 97-98 percent efficient at somewhere

8 between 75 and 100 percent of this total horsepower

9 power --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: That's true.

11 MR. FLY: -- consumption. When you get below

12 50 percent on that motor, if you have got a 10

13 horsepower motor and you are running it at 5, that

14 efficiency drops way off.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

16 MR. FLY: And as you go down lower, it gets

17 really bad. And it becomes a resistance heater

18 basically at some point.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, that is not how we are

20 applying them, but when you -- if you were to crank

21 down one of those motors in order to achieve the

22 static, that's where you would be.
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1 MR. FLY: Be. And so the energy consumption

2 by then would be huge compared -- it took a 20-

3 horsepower motor to do a 2-horsepower job.

4 MR. RIVEST: I understand. And that's really

5 what --

6 MR. FLY: That's the problem.

7 MR. RIVEST: -- we're trying to get at with

8 the mapping.

9 MR. FLY: Right.

10 MR. RIVEST: It's to correct for the

11 incorrect static just on that motor.

12 MR. FLY: Right.

13 MR. RIVEST: It's saying if we had taken the

14 proper motor, this is what we would have gotten with

15 our test procedure.

16 MR. FLY: That and all the --

17 MR. RIVEST: Now, maybe there is another way

18 of doing this, which is just making sure that the motor

19 -- well, so then the standard takes into account

20 already they can't put inefficient motors. So the only

21 thing you could get wrong is the sizing.

22 MR. WHITWELL: It could be misapplied --
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1 MR. RIVEST: Right. That's the risk.

2 MR. WHITWELL: -- which, I mean, to some

3 extent, you know, we could only try to educate the

4 customers. You know, if they misapply it, there are

5 only limited things we can do in that.

6 MR. AMRANE: But here we are not talking

7 about the normal customer: you and me. We are talking

8 about it is being inspected by an engineering firm.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

10 MR. AMRANE: So there is some analysis --

11 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

12 MR. AMRANE: -- behind, you know, acquiring

13 the product. So you would think that at least the firm

14 would have done its homework and would have picked the

15 right equipment for its right application. So it is a

16 bit different.

17 MR. WHITWELL: True.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Well, does the engineering firm

19 inspect the motors that are going into it? Because I

20 understood Jill to say earlier that they tell her,

21 "This is the static I need," and then she builds the

22 system. And so she is making those decisions about what
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1 is going into it.

2 MR. JOHNSON: Sometime the spec will require

3 -- the engineer will specify the motor efficiency,

4 whether it should be a certain efficiency or high

5 efficiency or what.

6 MR. FLY: But generally it is the

7 requirement, the engineering requirement, for the

8 project.

9 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And you are right. I

11 think less so now that it's --

12 MR. WHITWELL: The motor has been regulated.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: The motor has already been

14 regulated --

15 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: -- and pushed to the top --

17 MR. JOHNSON: It used to be that way.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

19 MR. RIVEST: John, your concern can be any --

20 MS. BARHYDT: So what we are looking at doing

21 is in the short-term issuing a guidance document saying

22 that things like this that are more complicated,
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1 obviously there are a lot of issues that we are going

2 to have to work through. And whether it's a standards

3 issue, a test procedure issue, whether it is something

4 that ultimately there is just no solution at all under

5 the statute, whatever that is, it is something that we

6 are not going to be able to resolve in the context of

7 this working group. Maybe it's good for a different

8 ASRAC working group, but not this working group. And

9 so what we are looking at doing is saying that the air

10 filters are not going to be something subject to

11 testing by the Department until it has been addressed

12 through some other mechanism.

13 MR. JOHNSON: So you are going to do that to

14 various options?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So there are several of

16 them.

17 MR. RIVEST: We went over them before.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So you all already went

19 over this? Okay.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: We got five "Get Out of Jail

21 Free" cards today.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So this falls within that
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1 category. This is just not something we are going to

2 resolve right now.

3 MR. EISNER: Do you want the final report to

4 reflect the fact that you will address those things

5 through guidance or do you want any suggestions from

6 the members of the group as to what should be in the

7 guidance?

8 MS. BARHYDT: I think what I will do is I

9 will draft something up and I'll bring it to the next

10 meeting if that will work for everyone.

11 MR. EISNER: Any more slides to go through on

12 this issue?

13 MR. RIVEST: Just for filters, apparently

14 when you ship the basic model, you have a standard

15 filter package with some guidance. How can we put that

16 in writing? I mean, we can't just say, "No filters."

17 We have to say --

18 MR. JOHNSON: I'm sorry. I didn't hear. I

19 couldn't hear you.

20 MR. RIVEST: When it comes to filter, right

21 now when you're testing through the AHRI program,

22 you're shipping some filters. And there's probably --
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1 MS. MEYERS: Standard.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Testing the standard -- I think

3 it's --

4 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. Generally the standard

5 part for everybody is probably a two-inch filter, maybe

6 some small units, one --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

8 MR. JOHNSON: I don't know if they use one9 inch filters anymore, but --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, one-inch --

11 MR. JOHNSON: It's a very minimal filter.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- probably in the --

13 MR. RIVEST: But is it even realistic,

14 though? I mean, do some people actually buy those

15 products? You can't be like an imaginary -- like a

16 level of filtration that --

17 MS. MEYERS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This is --

18 MR. JOHNSON: Standard filters?

19 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

20 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, very much so.

21 MR. RIVEST: Okay.

22 MS. MEYERS: Yes. The filtration options are
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1 --

2 MR. JOHNSON: They just go up and change them

3 every month.

4 MR. RIVEST: Could you come up with some

5 words that would define what that basic filtration

6 requirement would be for the test data that could be

7 included in guidance? Because right now it's --

8 MR. JOHNSON: Probably.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Yes.

10 MR. DOPPEL: There is something in the

11 spreadsheet.

12 MR. RIVEST: Oh. There is?

13 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. I put that it was a

14 minimum of one inch because I thought that some of the

15 smaller units would just have a one-inch.

16 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Is

17 there a MERV rating, like 6, 7, something like that,

18 used?

19 MR. DOPPEL: I think 8 is now -- it may be 6.

20 I put 8 in --

21 MR. AMRANE: I think it is 62.1. What is it,

22 8?
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1 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, 8.

2 MR. RIVEST: Could it be specified that way?

3 MR. JOHNSON: Can we specify it by MERV

4 rating?

5 MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

6 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, we probably could, 6, 7,

7 8, somewhere in there, about 8 minimum, I think.

8 MALE SPEAKER: I don't know if there's any

9 code.

10 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. I'm trying to think if

11 there's a code for that.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

13 MR. DOPPEL: 62.1. They just passed

14 something that made 8 the minimum.

15 MR. JOHNSON: Did it? Okay.

16 MR. DOPPEL: I think we have something in

17 California, but it's not 8. I think it's 7. I'll

18 check.

19 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. So the

20 manufacturers are going to come back to the group with

21 a recommended -- or to DOE for what they should put in

22 the guidance for the filter?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, I thought Paul was

2 suggesting we use that.

3 MR. DOPPEL: It's there.

4 MR. MYERS: Okay.

5 MR. DOPPEL: Again, that's a working

6 document. Everyone hasn't had a chance to read through

7 all this.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MR. RIVEST: Well, the MERV is the --

10 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. One inch would be for the

11 smaller sized units and then two-inch. I don't know

12 what the breakpoint is, but at some point, it would go

13 to two inches.

14 MS. BARHYDT: That is actually a better way

15 to do it than inches.

16 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. I'd like to stay away from

17 the inches.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

19 MR. RIVEST: Performance level?

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. It's a performance.

21 MR. DOPPEL: The MERV rating is --

22 MS. BARHYDT: It's how small the particles it
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1 will filter.

2 MR. DOPPEL: Right.

3 MR. AMRANE: It's how they're arranged.

4 MALE SPEAKER: I may want to put a MERV 8

5 that has a more pressure belt than a one-inch.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, exactly.

7 MR. AMRANE: So just put it in the MERV.

8 It's better.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Do you know if the --

10 MS. BARHYDT: So the guidance would say that

11 that is how we would test. And we would test the unit

12 that was designed to be used with that filter.

13 MR. JOHNSON: Right. That's fine.

14 MR. MYERS: Either that or more restrictive.

15 Are you okay if it was more restrictive?

16 MR. FLY: I think I'd say, "Minimum" --

17 MR. JOHNSON: Minimum. Yes.

18 MR. FLY: -- instead of "Standard."

19 MR. JOHNSON: You want to set a minimum. If

20 they want to put any filters in there, that's up to

21 them.

22 MS. BARHYDT: I didn't hear the last thing
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1 that you said.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: He was just asking if they want

3 to put bag filters in there, they can, much higher

4 resistance. And then he asked if people still do. And

5 they do in process --

6 MS. BARHYDT: And the test procedure may

7 already say this. So please tell me, but does the test

8 procedure specify right now that you just test with the

9 pre-filter and that all the other filters are removed

10 --

11 MR. FLY: No.

12 MS. BARHYDT: -- or does it say? Does it

13 address filters in there?

14 MR. FLY: It doesn't say.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It doesn't say --

16 MS. BARHYDT: And are you all okay with --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: -- one way or the other.

18 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, assuming we buy the

19 unit that is shipped with the standard filter, are you

20 all okay with us testing with whatever filters --

21 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

22 MS. BARHYDT: -- are normally installed in
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1 it?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes because that's how it's

3 done today.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MR. RIVEST: So now we've gone once through

6 all the options. And we were going to come back on

7 some to have some discussion. There are some that we

8 skipped. Yes. That's what I --

9 MR. MARANTAN: The first one we skipped was

10 condenser motor options. Okay. So we are going to

11 pick up here on condenser fan motor options for

12 ducting. That's the one we needed some more discussion

13 on because we don't have a current position on it. So

14 we would like to know a little bit more about this.

15 Okay. So the definition that we have

16 prepared says the following, "A condenser fan motor

17 assembly designed for external ducting of condenser air

18 that providers greater pressure rise and has a higher19 rated motor horsepower than the condenser fan provided

20 as a standard component with the equipment." And the

21 definition provided in your document is "Motor

22 horsepower options for driving the outdoor fan." It's
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1 a little bit different.

2 MR. JOHNSON: Right, because --

3 MR. MARANTAN: This one is --

4 MR. JOHNSON: It's not necessarily just

5 ducting. Like I said before, you could have a ducted

6 condenser fan to the outside. You could have a

7 silencer or attenuator on the discharge of that

8 condenser fan to quiet it down. That may not

9 necessarily be ducted.

10 MR. MARANTAN: But in all cases, you would

11 have a different --

12 MR. JOHNSON: It changes the --

13 MR. MARANTAN: -- motor.

14 MR. SACHS: I'm having trouble visualizing

15 the ducted situation, what the common application or

16 uncommon applications would be for that. And is it

17 anything other than a little apartment-sized apartment

18 units or is this large RTUs that are moved inside or --

19 MR. JOHNSON: I think it's more of an RTU

20 that's -- I don't know if it's -- moved inside, maybe

21 encaged, and then they just want to make sure they duct

22 that condenser fan --
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1 MR. SACHS: Then I'll be stuck into a

2 penthouse.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, in our case,

4 it's not a rooftop unit. It's a different type of

5 single packaged unit, could be considered a vertical

6 packaged unit.

7 MR. HURST: Okay.

8 MR. WHITWELL: But we are considering it as a

9 -- you know, in this class. So the unit can be

10 installed right up against the wall or it can be

11 installed somewhere inside the building. And it is

12 designed to be ducted either -- well, both on the

13 indoor and the outdoor side.

14 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. You know, we forget we're

15 talking about both water-cooled and air-cooled.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. We have water-cooled

17 versions of these, and we have air-cooled versions of

18 the same equipment.

19 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

20 MR. FLY: Water-cooled, obviously they didn't

21 have a --

22 MR. WHITWELL: Right. But they're not always
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1 installed. I mean, they are not installed outside.

2 They are inside. And they are not always installed

3 adjacent to the external wall, exterior wall.

4 MR. FLY: The other place you see it -- and I

5 can't say it is a common application because there

6 aren't that many of these filled, but if you get to the

7 super tall buildings, especially a lot in Asia now and

8 the Middle East, you know, where they don't have a lot

9 of water, they'll go air-cooled. And every 23 floors,

10 there's a mechanical floor that has all the pumping and

11 everything on it. And they will install the units in

12 that mechanical floor and duct them in and out of that

13 floor through sidewall louvers.

14 Like I said, how many of those buildings --

15 you know, there's ten of those buildings built a year

16 in the world. It's a big deal. They still need

17 equipment.

18 MR. JOHNSON: Well --

19 MR. SACHS: They are using 364.60-type

20 equipment or built-up system --

21 MR. FLY: They are using packaged equipment.

22 Like I said, that is more common in Asia and in the
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1 Middle East.

2 MR. JOHNSON: VRB is applied that way very

3 often.

4 MR. FLY: Right.

5 MR. JOHNSON: On a high-rise application,

6 VRB, every so often, they will have an equipment room

7 on the outside wall. And they will duct the VRB

8 condenser to the outside.

9 MR. SACHS: It's very helpful to me just to

10 be able to visualize --

11 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

12 MR. SACHS: -- what the applications look

13 like. Thank you.

14 MR. MARANTAN: I can see that the units that

15 aren't ducted could be tested normally.

16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

17 MR. MARANTAN: The ones with ducts, what kind

18 of testing?

19 MR. JOHNSON: And I think your ducted

20 application, you are not providing the duct.

21 MR. WHITWELL: No, we don't provide the

22 ductwork. It's added in.
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1 MR. JOHNSON: And the attenuators that we

2 would put on there could be taken off. But you still

3 have probably a different fan motor.

4 MR. FLY: An inappropriate fan motor and fan

5 blade.

6 MR. MARANTAN: So it sounds like these units

7 could be tested normally. If it comes with ducting,

8 you just wouldn't use it.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Well, it doesn't come

10 with ducting, and they could be tested normally. But

11 the issue is when you put the larger powered motor on

12 it, it is going to draw more power.

13 MR. JOHNSON: And there is not just one.

14 There is usually --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: I think the lower part of a

16 curve, too.

17 MR. JOHNSON: -- six or eight on it.

18 MR. FLY: So I guess you could call it

19 different types of equipment, although it's an awful

20 small number of units that were out there.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Right.

22 MR. FLY: You know, it's kind of ducted
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1 versus ductless, almost.

2 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. In terms of sales, what

3 is the magnitude of --

4 MR. WHITWELL: It's low.

5 MR. MARANTAN: Probably it's --

6 MR. WHITWELL: No. It's low.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Low, very low.

8 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Also, for the impact on

9 the test procedure, we characterize it as zero to low.

10 I guess it would be zero for those units that just have

11 some kind of -- you know, without ductwork, it could be

12 zero to low.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, if it was

14 required --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: If the fan isn't operated as --

16 if you've got those bigger fans in there.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, maybe the test

18 procedure change would have to require some external

19 static pressure on the condenser side, which is a

20 significant change to the test procedure.

21 MR. FLY: Well, from a static pressure

22 standpoint, a condenser is going to run from a quarter
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1 and a half inch. When you duct it or put silencers on

2 it, you are probably talking inch, inch and a half to

3 two inches?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

5 MR. FLY: So you are doubling the power.

6 MR. SACHS: Well, we could treat this as

7 application engineers do and just do a random draw.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: It's too small.

9 MR. MARANTAN: I think we're consistent on

10 the impact. In your table, there's a mention zero to

11 three percent as well.

12 MR. WHITWELL: That's our estimate that we

13 developed based on the higher power that the motors

14 that we use that we specify at --

15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. What are your thoughts

16 on the product class for these products?

17 MR. WHITWELL: Well, we could always put ours

18 under the vertical packaged equipment, in which case

19 there is a lower efficiency standard. And we would be

20 fine, I guess; right? But, I mean, we --

21 MR. AMRANE: There has to be a definition,

22 though.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean --

2 MR. AMRANE: It has to be vertical.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, yes. And ours actually

4 is. So --

5 MR. AMRANE: So maybe you fit it to --

6 MR. WHITWELL: We could, but we choose to put

7 it under this product, consider it as part of those

8 product lines.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So let's move on to the next

10 one. There are a few of these that I have flagged that

11 we wanted to hear your views.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

13 MS. BARHYDT: And then we are going to have

14 to talk about them some. So the next one?

15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one is hot gas

16 reheat. The definition we have here is a heat

17 exchanger located downstream of the indoor coil that

18 heats the supply air during cooling operation using

19 high-pressure refrigerant vapor in order to increase

20 the ratio of moisture removal to cooling capacity

21 provided by the equipment. And the definition you have

22 provided says, "Additional indoor refrigerant to air
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1 heat exchanger with the diverting refrigerant valve to

2 redirect high compressor discharged gas through air

3 coil to reheat air from the cooling coil generally

4 located behind the indoor cooling coil in the

5 airstream."-

6 MR. EISNER: Before we get too far ahead, we

7 have got a comment from one of the people online:

8 Rodney Beever. Are you there, Rodney? Rodney, do you

9 have a question?

10 Okay. We'll go back to Rodney.

11 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So the definition looks

12 to be consistent. Is there a preference?

13 MS. BARHYDT: I was just short --

14 MR. JOHNSON: I don't know that we have a

15 preference. I think we're saying the same thing, just

16 different.

17 MR. MARANTAN: Yes. It's a heat exchanger.

18 MR. JOHNSON: We're okay.

19 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. In terms of impact on

20 test procedure, you characterize it as one to five

21 percent. We have low to medium. Pretty consistent.

22 Okay. How about relative volume of products? What is
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1 the percentage for these?

2 MR. JOHNSON: It is a low volume right now,

3 but it is one that seems to be growing. There's more -

4 -

5 MS. MEYERS: We're getting a lot more

6 requests for this.

7 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

8 MS. MEYERS: I don't know what our volume is,

9 but I know it is a growing area.

10 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

11 MS. MEYERS: I would say today it is

12 relatively low, but I see it really --

13 MR. FLY: Relatively high for me.

14 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. And it could be --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: But you have had it --

16 MR. FLY: Medium for me.

17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: He has had it a lot longer.

19 MR. JOHNSON: I don't mean to speak for Mark.

20 MR. MARANTAN: So low to medium?

21 MS. MEYERS: I would say I would put it at

22 medium.
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1 MR. SACHS: What I heard was growing.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

3 MR. MARANTAN: Growing. We've got that.

4 Others?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: That is fine.

6 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Is there a typical

7 application for these, specific market?

8 MR. FLY: Anywhere that's humid, like here.

9 You can open this room today.

10 MR. HUNT: But lower the temperature gets.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

12 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. What about test

13 procedure modifications? Is there a way to address

14 these in testing?

15 MR. FLY: The issue with the test procedure

16 is they are not doing the work for which they are

17 designed to do, which is basically taking out extra

18 moisture out of the air during the test conditions of

19 8067 coming in before. You don't need to do it at that

20 point. It's for the higher humidity or lower load. So

21 to get this room comfortable, we have to drop the

22 temperature even lower because it is humid. And if you
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1 can make the air dryer, you wouldn't have to drop the

2 temperature as low. So the problem -- I don't know how

3 to accommodate the test procedure unless you change the

4 design points.

5 MR. WHITWELL: You would have to change the

6 conditions.

7 MR. AMRANE: Change the written condition,

8 but --

9 MR. FLY: And then what conditions you change

10 them to.

11 MR. WHITWELL: They might change not just the

12 indoor.

13 MR. FLY: The guys out on the West Coast know

14 nothing about this.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not appropriate for them

16 or --

17 MS. MEYERS: Not the test procedure standards

18 or conditions.

19 MR. SACHS: I wonder if there's room for a

20 product class that would cover this and a number of

21 other things that basically would be enhanced

22 dehumidification air conditioners with a test procedure
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1 SHR less than some value. That way you get into a

2 number of the modified cycles.

3 MR. FLY: Really, what you are doing is

4 changing the sensible heat ratio.

5 MR. SACHS: Right, right.

6 MR. FLY: Tell the lawyers that because they

7 probably don't know what that means.

8 MR. SACHS: I think. Let me ask that,

9 instead. Could we do a simple SHR threshold below which

10 it belongs to this additional product class or enhanced

11 dehumidifying --

12 MR. WHITWELL: SHR at the rating condition.

13 MR. FLY: At the rating condition, no.

14 MR. SACHS: Well, that means you have to use

15 a different rating condition for that equipment.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Right. I am just saying that

17 if you were looking at a minimum SHR at the rating

18 condition to determine whether it is in this new

19 product class or not, that wouldn't work. It has to be

20 at a different ratio.

21 MR. SACHS: So the question is whether the

22 evolution of this basically regional product is likely
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1 to be enough to warrant the effort with all the

2 downstream modifications and 90.1 and everything else

3 in there.

4 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I kind

5 of hate to bring this up at this point, but there is

6 one thing we left off the list looking at our

7 California brethren. The opposite of this is direct

8 and indirect cooling we have not included in our list

9 and have similar issues in that we're adding a lot of

10 pressure drop with those.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Correct.

12 MR. FLY: They are doing cooling. But they

13 would not be doing cooling at test conditions because

14 that is not the conditions you have.

15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So for the test

16 procedure modification, what I heard was that it

17 requires a significant change to the rating conditions

18 and for options for new product classes, potentially

19 the idea of the low SHR class from Harvey.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but I don't know how you

21 would define it because, again, it sounded like for

22 test conditions.
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1 MS. JAKOBS: Are you talking about changing

2 the test conditions or are you trying to do capture the

3 benefit to this feature?

4 MR. FLY: Right.

5 MS. JAKOBS: Because there is a benefit.

6 People want it but at the test condition, it's not

7 apparent.

8 MS. MEYERS: Right.

9 MS. JAKOBS: Only the downside is apparent.

10 MR. FLY: So it does save energy in the

11 building because we are overcooling the space to get

12 the humidity out. Everybody puts sweaters on.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

14 MR. MARANTAN: It sounds like whichever way

15 we go, we would need the test procedure changed first.

16 Okay.

17 MS. JAKOBS: You are identifying a new

18 function. And that makes it a product class?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't understand when they

20 think they can be product classes or when they can't, I

21 mean, where you think you can go with that.

22 MR. FLY: Hasn't been decided at this point.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

2 MR. RIVEST: Somebody explain to me the

3 physical differences between a product, basic product,

4 and a product that has this feature.

5 MR. FLY: It has an extra coil. It has a

6 condenser coil that is in line with the evaporator coil

7 to provide free reheat. It's reclaiming part of the

8 stuff that you go to the outdoor coil or blow away,

9 you're going to bring back in and reheat the air to dry

10 it out.

11 So ASHRAE 90.1 disallows you from using a

12 general new energy to do reheat with. You can put a

13 boiler in there, a reheat boiler in there, except in

14 certain cases because you are cooling it down and

15 heating it back up. This gives you a means to do it

16 without using any heating energy.

17 MR. RIVEST: So it is all fan power losses.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

19 MR. FLY: It's all fan power losses.

20 MS. MEYERS: At the rating condition.

21 MR. FLY: So that's why I say it's really no

22 different than the reclaim coil or the hot water or
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1 cool water or the runaround loop and that coil because

2 it is just an extra coil in line that --

3 MR. RIVEST: I see. I didn't understand that

4 is what it was. I thought it was new energy. It's

5 waste energy.

6 MR. FLY: It's waste energy.

7 MS. MEYERS: It's waste energy, yes.

8 MR. STEM: So that's the loss. You're going

9 to lose your sensible -- the basket as well. So you --

10 MR. FLY: Yes. You are already losing some

11 physical capacity.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Not at the rating condition.

13 MR. FLY: But not at the rating condition,

14 but you have a building that is operating.

15 MS. JAKOBS: So the temperature has gone up,

16 but it really has gone down?

17 MR. AMRANE: The temperature definitely is

18 up. I mean, it is basically because you are cooling to

19 remove the moisture. You are cooling below the normal

20 condition of --

21 MR. FLY: Really, what --

22 MR. AMRANE: You have to reheat the --
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1 MR. FLY: -- the discharge air temperature

2 and heating it back to where it's --

3 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. You have to reheat the

4 air to make it comfortable.

5 MR. FLY: And that does use more energy

6 because the pressure ratio is higher.

7 MR. AMRANE: Exactly.

8 MR. WHITWELL: It uses more energy, but it

9 uses less energy than the alternative but --

10 MR. AMRANE: Exactly.

11 MR. WHITWELL: -- it is just to keep cooling

12 when you don't really need cooling because you need to

13 -- you might drive the air out.

14 MR. AMRANE: That's true. And that is a

15 good, very good, point.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

17 MR. RIVEST: So the reason why DOE might want

18 to create a new metric and take this into account is

19 that because you could do this more efficiently; in

20 other words, have a bigger coil and less static. Is

21 that why? I mean, the reheat is free, but the static

22 isn't.
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1 MR. FLY: The static --

2 MR. RIVEST: Manufacturer A might have a

3 coil that has ore restriction, consumes more energy

4 than another manufacturer. And DOE would want to push

5 that efficiency to the optimum economic point. That's

6 why DOE would want a test procedure change. So you

7 either take this out or create a new metric that builds

8 it in or can there be different -- are there standards

9 that you have about what is the allowable static drop

10 in those units or --

11 MR. WHITWELL: No.

12 MR. FLY: No.

13 MR. HUNT: Marshal Hunt, PG&E. You also have

14 bypass. Until the condition requires it, you don't go

15 through that coil --

16 MR. FLY: Well, yes.

17 MR. HUNT: -- and the mix there.

18 MR. FLY: You can also be returning a mixed

19 air bypass, which typically in function in our

20 equipment reduces the size of the evaporator coil.

21 They can fit in that box. So that's another wrinkle on

22 the whole deal. So there are several different ways --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Typically only done in the 20

2 tons in that category --

3 MR. HUNT: Yes.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: -- because we don't have the

5 room to do those in the smaller ones.

6 MR. HUNT: It's the big stuff, yes.

7 MR. FLY: So the bigger sized equipment

8 running lower capacities is more efficient than the

9 smaller size. We all tend to make things in box sizes.

10 If you're the top of the box, you are the worst

11 efficiency. If you're at the bottom of the box, you

12 are at the best efficiency. So in that way, the bottom

13 of my box would have less breaker drop and be more

14 efficient at the end of the desk.

15 MR. SACHS: Go back to something Mark said

16 about ten minutes ago that we are at the point now that

17 equipment or my interpretation of it with the fairly

18 stringent standards we have now, the importance of

19 adapting the equipment to real regional needs is the

20 path left for reducing energy. At one extreme,

21 Marshall is insisting on units which have pretty warm

22 evaporators because he doesn't care about the ability
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1 to remove stream. That saves him some energy. At the

2 other extreme in Washington, Atlanta, and Houston, we

3 need machinery that does a better job of removing

4 moisture. So at some point, the test procedures have to

5 evolve or the product classes have to evolve to

6 recognize those divergent needs at high performance

7 levels and higher customer expectations as well.

8 The next time I'm going to wear a long9 sleeved shirt.

10 MS. BARHYDT: So let's move on to the next

11 one.

12 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one is high13 static indoor blowers, oversized motors.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry. Sorry. Before we move

15 onto this one, do we have a position on the last one?

16 MS. BARHYDT: No. There are several of these

17 that we had that my notes say that we wanted your

18 feedback. And then I need to talk to the team.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

20 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. I'd like to

21 have the opportunity for next time to introduce the

22 Western version of this, where we have to get some pre-
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1 cooling and other things.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Direct and indirect.

3 MR. HUNT: Yes.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Do you need information or

5 would you be able to do it while we're here today?

6 MR. HUNT: No, I don't want to do it today.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

8 MR. HUNT: I want to check this with some of

9 our lab testing people.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

11 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. High-static indoor

12 blowers, oversized motors. The definition we have is

13 an indoor fan assembly, including the motor that drives

14 the fan. It can deliver higher external static

15 pressure than the standard indoor fan assembly sold

16 with the equipment.

17 MS. TUCKER: We talked about those.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. All right. Move on.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Dvu.

20 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. And then the definition

21 provided in your document says, "Test CFM per ton and

22 external static pressure are often less than a customer
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1 requires. So test break horsepower is less than the

2 customer's selected motor horsepower. Customers may

3 also choose an oversized motor to allow more future

4 capacity." I think the definition on the board has a

5 little bit more straightforward aspects.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Does that definition capture

7 everything?

8 MR. FLY: I think it does. I think it's --

9 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We'll go with this one?

10 All right. The impact characterized by us is low. And

11 in your document, you have two to three percent and

12 zero to three percent. I think that's consistent.

13 MR. FLY: Well, it depends on how high is

14 high. Not to be flippant, but I built equipment for the

15 U.S. Navy that had 30 inches of external static. I was

16 cooling submarines in dry dock. Yes. The fan heat is

17 significant. So it could be more than low. And one of

18 the things that --

19 MR. JOHNSON: I think it's low to medium.

20 MR. FLY: Like I think somebody said before,

21 we have all these losses that are kind of outside the

22 scope of what industry considers a basic model.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

2 MR. FLY: Some of them are internal. Some of

3 them are external. From an engineering standpoint,

4 when you look at the fan, it's all the same thing. It

5 adds static to the fan. So at the low end of the

6 commercial equipment, we're talking about two-tenths of

7 an inch of static pressure.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

9 MR. FLY: If I add 4 or 5 inches, as opposed

10 to two-tenths external, and so, say, I have two-tenths

11 external and I've got another inch on that, so 1.2

12 versus 4 or 5 or 6 or 30, the fan energy there is huge.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

14 MR. FLY: And even, you know, if you're doing

15 submarine coolers, the fan energy is more than the

16 compressor energy. That's extreme case, but that

17 doesn't mean it hasn't been built.

18 MS. JAKOBS: That's typical of commercial,

19 then. You can't characterize that.

20 MR. FLY: You can't characterize that.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

22 MR. FLY: And we are told what it is. Now,
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1 we could tell our customers, "No, you can't buy it from

2 us." And I guess we could tell our customers, "No, you

3 can't buy it from anybody." But then you get into the

4 operating room scenario, that you could not build an

5 operating room suite in the United States. And I don't

6 think that is going to make you very popular with this

7 thing.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: We have to go in the medical

9 care business because we are all aging.

10 MR. FLY: Or any of us.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I mean, because you have

12 equipment here and it goes from 3 through 63 tons, the

13 smaller stuff is the smaller static. You know, you are

14 not seeing these used very much. You know, you start,

15 and you're 20 tons in equipment. And you get much,

16 much, much, much more diverse applications.

17 MR. FLY: Three-quarters of an inch is the

18 top? Is that correct? It seems like --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: We're all the way up to points

20 of --

21 MR. FLY: I think on the --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: .35 and then .45 I thought.
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1 MR. FLY: Okay.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: .35 and .45 for the test

3 procedure. Yes. I'm like Mark. Every day we're

4 building ones that have eight inches of static, total

5 static.

6 MR. RIVEST: So the variables here are the

7 blower and the motor as well?

8 MR. FLY: Right.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Motor and the blower. Just

10 depending on what they're asking for.

11 MR. RIVEST: Right.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: And the parameters of the fan.

13 It could be the sheaves. It could be the motor. It

14 could be the fan itself.

15 MR. RIVEST: The test procedure. Is that the

16 static it's at? And how did it happen? Why are there

17 two to three different statics?

18 MR. FLY: We're not old enough to know that.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: I am not an fan expert.

20 MR. FLY: I don't know where that stuff came

21 from, but --

22 MR. AMRANE: What? The history of the
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1 static?

2 MR. FLY: The history of where the static was

3 has been around since --

4 MR. AMRANE: That is before my time.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: I think it is really because of

6 what a test room can set up --

7 MR. AMRANE: I think so.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: -- and be -- you know, you are

9 going to have to have ductwork on it. And you have,

10 you know, essentially the correct turns in the

11 ductwork. And the more static you are, the bigger that

12 has to get and the longer it has to get.

13 MR. AMRANE: You are right. We talk about

14 change in the test procedure. I think it's fine, but

15 at the same time, we need to be practical. I mean,

16 what can we test practically: Intertek or UL or

17 whatever? Because yes. We're talking about higher

18 static pressure, but then you have to build a room that

19 can do that which it sometimes could be difficult or

20 sometimes could be impossible. I don't know.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And --

22 MR. AMRANE: So it has to be practical. It
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1 has to be cost-effective because, you know, those tests

2 are not free. I mean, they cost quite a bit. So time.

3 I mean, we are trying to capture everything, but at the

4 same time, we need to be practical at the end of the

5 day. And there are things that maybe do not learn. We

6 go too much into the weeds here. I mean, that's my

7 personal opinion.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. When we were negotiating

9 with the ASHRAE 90.1 mechanical equipment subcommittee

10 for the VRF standards, Dick Lord said that the reason

11 for the static was it was like 300 feet of ductwork

12 that was the basis and that's what would be needed to

13 provide that. And so that's why we added additional for

14 the nine ducted VRF systems, we added additional nine

15 to compensate for that same amount of distance.

16 MR. STEM: You were at 175. There are nine

17 points on that table. But if you are going to go --

18 this is similar to what you are talking about with the

19 ISO brick; right, same application? But I don't think

20 still going above an inch or two, I don't know if

21 that's really applied at that point.

22 MR. FLY: There's a lot of flexible duct and
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1 things in this test setup that would blow up at some

2 point.

3 MR. STEM: Yes. This all has to be -- any

4 time you go over a half-inch or even above an inch,

5 you're going to have to --

6 MR. WHITWELL: Right. And it's --

7 MR. STEM: I understand it's a 500,000 BTU

8 unit.

9 MR. WHITWELL: And it's not just one room

10 where you have to do that. You have to be -- all the

11 manufacturers would have to change their tests for

12 these as well as the --]

13 MR. FLY: All the independent labs.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

15 MR. RIVEST: So what is the benefit of the

16 sliding scale based on horsepower for static versus

17 just consenting it?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, those are set up, Paul

19 was saying, around that 300 so that we're comparing the

20 same system with 300 foot of ductwork. So a 20-ton

21 system and a 5-ton system with 300 foot of ductwork

22 each has its -- when you ride the curve, each is going
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1 to have a different ESP. So we're set up so that we're

2 kind of all in the same basis of comparison.

3 MR. RIVEST: No. But I meant going forward

4 here.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay.

6 MR. RIVEST: It seems like there are two

7 options. One is to just order the motor. That is

8 designed to work at the static pressure of the test

9 procedure.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: That is what we do. I mean,

11 when we provide a day in July, we make sure that it

12 gets a motor in there that is appropriate for that test

13 center.

14 MR. RIVEST: And what we talked about also

15 was if you were to try and test it, it has a larger --

16 because it was designed for a higher static. Is the

17 static design something that someone, an observer,

18 could see what that is or is that a spec that is hidden

19 somewhere? If I am testing that unit and it is

20 designed for two inches, would I know that from looking

21 at the unit?

22 MULTIPLE SPEAKERS: No.
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1 MR. FLY: That is required by the customer.

2 And in our model string, static is not. The horsepower

3 might be in there.

4 MR. RIVEST: So I could look --

5 MR. FLY: But the static and actual CFM are

6 not in that model string anywhere. It's auxiliary data

7 for us.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: They just send it to us in the

9 data.

10 MR. FLY: And every one of them will be

11 different because every building is different.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Well, actually --

13 MR. FLY: So there is an infinite number of

14 those. You can't say, "This is my four-inch unit."

15 MR. RIVEST: The table you were talking about

16 earlier for water, what are the actual water variables?

17 MR. FLY: And I think that is a relatively

18 small range. I don't know. I don't do that much.

19 Maybe the guys who test it know better, but --

20 MR. STEM: So what are you asking about, the

21 variables?

22 MR. RIVEST: I mean, is it horsepower on one
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1 axis and watts on the other or --

2 MR. STEM: No. Basically, it is static

3 pressure. And then you have, you know, the

4 fundamentals of physics to convert that from --

5 MR. RIVEST: So I can't use that table unless

6 I know the design static of our --

7 MR. STEM: You basically set everything back

8 to a zero static. The way that function is set up is

9 to adjust everything back to a normal level playing

10 field.

11 MR. RIVEST: Do you know what I'm saying;

12 right? If you test the unit with a big motor and you

13 get a certain EER or just watts --

14 MR. STEM: If you test with a big motor, you

15 are going to have to increase the static, increase the

16 resistance that we put on that unit to get that higher

17 static so that the correction factors would be active.

18 If you put a bigger unit in there and didn't or a

19 bigger motor in it and then didn't run the static, your

20 air cool is going to be off the charts. You are not

21 going to get the heat --

22 MR. RIVEST: I thought the point of the table
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1 was to not have to do any of that, was to just say,

2 "Here is the performance with the 5 horsepower. Here

3 is the performance with the 25 horsepower."

4 MR. STEM: Table.

5 MR. FLY: Well, there's a correction in

6 there. Like you're saying, it's for water source. But

7 I think it's a fairly minor correction, too. We're not

8 talking about one to four inches, which --

9 MR. RIVEST: Are you saying you couldn't even

10 test it if it's a unit that was designed for a high

11 static? You couldn't test it at .5?

12 MR. FLY: It depends on what -- I mean, we're

13 talking a range of baskets here from 65 to 505 or

14 infinity or whatever the upper limit is. So it's all

15 going to be very dependent on the facility, on space,

16 on how it houses the discharge. I mean, the larger

17 units, not currently. Smaller units, yes.

18 MR. RIVEST: Okay.

19 MR. FLY: So if you put the fan on VFB, you

20 could turn that fan that is supposed to do -- let's

21 throw some numbers out. Four inches of static

22 pressure. Say it's got a 20 horsepower drive. You are
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1 going to take it down to half an inch to get the test

2 condition. You put on a VFB. And you can slow that

3 fan down. It's barely turning, and it's probably

4 producing half an inch. You're running at a tenth of

5 the max horsepower. The motor efficiency may be 20

6 percent or 25 percent now for that 78 percent efficient

7 motor because you are running it way off of where it

8 ought to be running. That's the issue.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Next slide.

10 MR. MARANTAN: Moving on to the next slide --

11 MS. BARHYDT: I don't have an answer for you.

12 MR. FLY: We don't either.

13 MR. MARANTAN: This one is barometric relief,

14 powered exhaust, powered return air. And we have a few

15 definitions, one for each. Barometric relief and

16 assembly with dampers. It means to automatically set

17 the damper position in a closed position and one or

18 more open positions to allow venting directly to the

19 outside, a portion of the air; that is, returning to

20 the unit, rather than allowing it to recirculate to the

21 indoor coil and back to the building. Start with that

22 one.
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1 MR. FLY: Okay. These are all operating

2 modes where the unit is pulling in outside air, outside

3 air standard. When you pull outside air into the

4 building, it has to go somewhere. And I'm sure you

5 have all walked up to buildings, probably in D.C.,

6 where the doors are standing open. That's because they

7 are not properly handling this. So they brought too

8 much outside air in and didn't give it any place to go.

9 So barometric relief is the simplest way of relieving

10 it. Basically, you just have a way the damper kicks

11 open to put pressure in the building and, therefore,

12 inside the return section of the unit, you tell it not

13 to open.

14 So from our standpoint, just the test

15 procedure, which I think the labs are already doing

16 pretty much, is just that if there is such a thing, you

17 seal it off and make sure that it doesn't open during

18 the test.

19 MR. STEM: But everybody has a different

20 philosophy on what standard lab practice is and how to

21 seal it up, tape and cardboard is good or any of the --

22 bag over it. I mean, so any time you can clarify, it
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1 would be nice for us.

2 MS. BARHYDT: How sealed is sealed?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: And also on your descriptions,

4 this is kind of back to what we were talking about,

5 economizers, before, you are doing a lot of description

6 here around dampers and what today's technology is. I

7 don't know that tomorrow if you sat down, you would do

8 this. You can do this all with sensors. So, you know

9 --

10 MR. JOHNSON: But if you exempted

11 economizers, you're pretty much going to have to exempt

12 this option as well.

13 MS. MEYERS: Because it goes in --

14 MR. JOHNSON: It goes hand in hand with

15 economizers.

16 MR. FLY: This is really an economizer mode

17 operationally.

18 MR. FLY: The bigger issue is the power --

19 MR. MARANTAN: Let's see. For the barometric

20 --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: That induces the motor.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, before we go on, for
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1 the barometric relief, is that something that we need

2 to say that we wouldn't buy one that had that or is it

3 enough to say that the test procedure, under the test

4 procedure, if we buy one that had that, you seal it

5 off, we clarify how to seal it off and we would clarify

6 it that way?

7 MR. JOHNSON: That would be fine.

8 MR. MYERS: Yes. Either way you could do it.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

10 MR. MARANTAN: The next one is powered

11 exhaust. And that is a fan that transfers directly to

12 the outside portion of the building air that is

13 returning to the unit, rather than allowing it to

14 recirculate to the indoor cooling, back to the

15 building. So I take that to mean the same concept, but

16 it is powered by a fan. So would --

17 MR. FLY: It serves the same purpose on

18 larger buildings. You know, we talked about 300 feet

19 of ductwork on the supply side? If you have 300 feet

20 of ductwork on the return side, high-rise building or a

21 lot of commercial buildings, then there is going to be

22 significant air pressure drop. Say there is a quarter-
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1 inch of air pressure drop in the ductwork getting from

2 the room, from the front door to where that is. You

3 are going to pressurize that building by a quarter inch

4 before you would open the barometric relief damper. So

5 your front door will stand open again and blow air

6 conditioning out to the world.

7 And exhaust and return are minor

8 modifications on the same thing. It's kind of the

9 position of the unit, whether it's before or after the

10 return duct. So they are similar applications and

11 similar problems, but they are extra fans that were put

12 in there as a convenience to the other because you

13 could also put an inline fan in the return ductwork.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Or you could in just the

15 building exhaust, totally another whole system.

16 MR. FLY: A whole exhaust system. But, you

17 know, it's more costly. And it does not operate in

18 concert with the unit, how much outside air we're

19 taking in. So the control is always much less.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

21 MR. FLY: And you have a lot -- you are going

22 to waste more energy by not having it in the unit than
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1 having it in the unit or it's all --

2 MR. MARANTAN: So for the powered exhaust,

3 would it be okay to treat that similar to the

4 barometric relief and just leave that component off

5 during the test and seal it up?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Some designs are in a return

7 air strain, so, therefore --

8 MR. FLY: Return fans, you could leave that

9 in there because you --

10 MR. MARANTAN: That would be the next one,

11 right? Powered return?

12 MR. FLY: Yeah.

13 MR. MARANTAN: That is --

14 MR. STEM: A lot of questions on how properly

15 sealed it was. And even with the barometric relief, if

16 it is an option, I think it would be preferred to go

17 hand in hand with the RBs, maybe slide that over in

18 that group that is already excluded, exempted.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: and I guess I would kind of go

21 back to the question, why would you want to buy it if

22 you are going to seal it off?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know why I would. I'm

2 just asking.

3 Gathering information.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Because when you talk about

5 another motor, it is expensive. I mean, there is money

6 -- there is real money.

7 MR. RIVEST: I don't think we would

8 proactively want to do that.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

10 MR. RIVEST: It is only in a situation where,

11 you know, some product has been identified by a third

12 party as being non-compliant. If you want to bring in

13 to test it, and it is --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So when Aris asked about the

16 powered exhaust, several people talked about the fan

17 being in the return air.

18 MR. MARANTAN: That is the next one.

19 MS. BARHYDT: But with regard to the exhaust,

20 if the fan is off and the opening is sealed, is there

21 an impact?

22 MR. FLY: If the opening is sealed and the
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1 fan exhaust -- in a true exhaust fan, there shouldn't

2 be an impact.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

4 MR. MARANTAN: We had that as zero impact.

5 MR. FLY: Right.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Now, the next one is

8 powered return air, slightly different. A fan that

9 draws building air into the equipment.

10 MR. JOHNSON: This is a fan that is basically

11 in line with the supply fan.

12 MR. MARANTAN: Right.

13 MR. JOHNSON: And it is -- you know, it draws

14 the air back from the space and either sends it through

15 the equipment or sends it out the exhaust. And so, you

16 know, this is a fan that is maybe one size smaller than

17 the supply fan, so it is not an insignificant fan. And

18 it may be, you know, a motor or two down in size, so it

19 is a significant option.

20 MR. FLY: And if you turn it off, you have a

21 fan that you have to pull air through --

22 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.
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1 MR. FLY: -- where you have kind of a

2 spinning orifice, and it comes with a lot of pressure

3 around it.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

5 MR. FLY: If it's off. And they're never off

6 in operation.

7 MR. JOHNSON: No. And supply and return go

8 hand in hand when the unit operates.

9 MR. FLY: But these are typically for units

10 that have a significant amount of outside air that goes

11 in them all of the time.

12 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

13 MR. FLY: Where you've got lots of

14 ventilation load. And, unfortunately, the standards

15 don't -- or the metrics don't address outside air.

16 MR. JOHNSON: No.

17 MR. FLY: Well, like I said, if you exempt

18 economizers, this should be exempted as well.

19 MR. JOHNSON: Return fans always go with

20 economizers. I can't think of a case --

21 MR. FLY: Yes.

22 MR. JOHNSON: -- where they don't.
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1 MR. FLY: Agreed.

2 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. In terms of impact for

3 those powered return air units, we characterize it as

4 low to medium, and I didn't see one in your writeup.

5 MR. FLY: It is at least medium.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

7 MR. MARANTAN: Medium?

8 MR. FLY: Yeah.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Well, we did have five

10 percent on the return fan, and then --

11 MR. FLY: Is that five percent, medium,

12 wasn't it

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It is medium. It is

14 another motor.

15 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I wouldn't consider it

16 low. I would just consider it medium.

17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Medium. How about

18 relative prevalence for these three types?

19 MR. FLY: Larger equipment, quite prevalent.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. The above 20 tons, 20 to

21 63 tons, quite prevalent.

22 MR. FLY: They have one or the other.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, the nature of the --

2 everything we have said, the nature of the much longer

3 duct runs, much more static, much more outside air,

4 bigger buildings, just --

5 MR. FLY: Forty to 50 percent or more?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yeah. Easily 40. Yeah.

7 Well, I mean, basically ASHRAE --

8 MR. FLY: Up to 63 ton would --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. ASHRAE says that you're

10 going to have an economizer on every single one of

11 those. So, you know, you're going to have to deal with

12 all of this significant outside air.

13 MR. MARANTAN: So I heard 40 to 50 percent

14 for larger equipment? How about smaller?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, gosh. Some of these don't

16 even go on -- I mean, go on in third party in our small

17 stuff.

18 MR. MARANTAN: Low prevalence?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It's low.

20 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We already addressed

21 the --

22 MR. WHITWELL: Low to medium maybe, right?
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1 MR. MARANTAN: Low to medium?

2 MR. WHITWELL: We are talking about all

3 three?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, medium being five percent?

5 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Then low to medium,

8 yeah.

9 MR. FLY: I mean, we do some recircing only

10 if somebody has a dedicated outdoor air system. But

11 that's the only case you won't have it in a commercial

12 building.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

14 MR. HUNT: And in California you go clear

15 down to, what is it, six or seven tons for economizers

16 coming January 1st.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. But usually its own

18 relief damper and those kinds of things can probably

19 handle it, you know, and having to power it.

20 MR. HUNT: To seal it, yeah, correct. Thank

21 you.

22 MR. EISNER: Okay. And we already discussed
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1 test procedure issues, how we would address them.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Did we discuss it for returns?

3 I mean, is there a way to address it for powered return

4 air?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Is there a way to address

7 the powered return air in a test procedure? Or is that

8 just --

9 MR. MARANTAN: No. No.

10 MS. JAKOBS: Unless you can bring outside air

11 in the test procedure, I don't know how you are going

12 to do it. We already discussed how that is a problem.

13 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I understand that. If you

15 are in a house with outside air, it wouldn't just be

16 outside air. You would want conditioned outside air,

17 right?

18 MR. MARANTAN: Right. So it's not --

19 MS. BARHYDT: No. Right. I understand that.

20 MR. FLY: It is really almost another room

21 that --

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. That is another room
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1 where you are simulating the mix and --

2 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one I have is

3 broadcast bypass.

4 MR. JOHNSON: This is Tom Johnson. Can we

5 circle back, just for a second, to filtration? I think

6 as we put this list of options together, we were

7 primarily thinking about packaged equipment. But my

8 water source heat pump guy, God bless him, I think he

9 is listening on the phone, just reminded me, he said

10 that their standard filter in a water source heat pump

11 is MERV 3.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yeah. That's true.

13 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. So we -- as we put this

14 option list together, there are some on the end there.

15 There are some that apply directly to the water source

16 heat pump. And so we just wanted to do one option list

17 to try and cover everything for the broad range of

18 products. And so --

19 MR. FLY: For the broad/narrow range of

20 products.

21 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. So we almost have to --

22 you know, when we get into MERV meetings, we have got
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1 to be cognizant of the type of equipment we are talking

2 about. So --

3 MS. BARHYDT: So on that one --

4 MR. JOHNSON: MERV 3.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Three.

6 MS. TUCKER: Oh, sorry.

7 MR. AMRANE: But there might be other things

8 that you would like to -- you will be addressing with

9 the water source heat pump that might be a little bit

10 different than this list, too.

11 MR. JOHNSON: Well, what we tried to do on

12 this option list is, at the end, we added three or four

13 specific options that would affect a water source heat

14 pump. Okay? And that is how we have addressed options

15 for -- you know, like I said, for the broad range of

16 products we are talking about. And so we have got to

17 be careful as we go through this.

18 MS. BARHYDT: So my plan is to draft up

19 something, and everyone can read it and it is --

20 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

21 MS. BARHYDT: If it is too limited in terms

22 of the products, or if there are other technical
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1 concerns, or anything like that --

2 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.

3 MS. BARHYDT: -- we will deal with those at

4 the next --

5 MR. JOHNSON: That would be great. That

6 would be acceptable.

7 MS. BARHYDT: But certainly, as we go through

8 it, if -- things like this, please raise them now, so

9 that the draft can be --

10 MR. JOHNSON: We will do our best.

11 MS. BARHYDT: -- as complete as possible.

12 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Thank you.

13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one is hot gas

14 bypass. The definition we have is a method to adjust

15 the cooling delivered by the equipment in which some

16 portion of the high pressure refrigerant in the

17 discharge of the compressors is diverted from its

18 normal flow to the outdoor coil and is, instead,

19 allowed to enter the indoor coil. The definition in

20 the Word document you provided is much longer.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Does this capture it?

22 MR. FLY: The purpose of the device is to
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1 modulate the capacity of the compressor.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

3 MR. FLY: And that is the only thing I don't

4 see up there.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

6 MR. FLY: To modulate the capacity of the --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: It is all refrigerant. I mean,

8 not to be -- you know, some of these other things we

9 have been talking about have air flow and, you know,

10 other things involved. This is all refrigerant, and it

11 modulates the lowest step of the largest compressor or

12 largest refrigerant circuit.

13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Can we add that to the

14 end? "To modulate the capacity of the unit."

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

16 MR. FLY: It is the compressor.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Is that --

18 MR. FLY: It is actually to modulate the

19 capacity of a compressor.

20 MR. MARANTAN: A compressor.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Or --

22 MR. FLY: Or a refrigeration circuit.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Let's put "refrigeration

2 circuit."

3 MR. FLY: You want to say "refrigeration

4 circuit." It's probably more precise.

5 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How's that? Okay. In

6 terms of impacts to the energy use, I think you

7 characterize it in your document as two to three

8 percent. We have hot gas bypass would be closer for --

9 closed for the EER test; therefore, zero.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. But those associated

11 valves are still in the system, so there is an

12 associated pressure drop, refrigerant pressure drop.

13 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So with that in mind,

14 would it be low?

15 MR. FLY: I think it's low.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It's low.

17 MR. FLY: It's low in the EMF.

18 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So that would be zero

19 to two percent.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

21 MR. FLY: I don't think we agree among

22 ourselves now that --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

2 MR. STEM: I'm nervous seeing this because,

3 obviously, you get three loops in every refrigeration

4 system we have to control the test loops. You have to

5 get the coil temperature dialed in to tenths of a

6 degree to get the right amount of moisture, so we are

7 not doing unnecessary work. I have a very difficult

8 time bleeding, without redundant king valves, someone

9 with a lot of other stuff, to shut off the hot gas that

10 we are going to be injecting back into those coils,

11 that we are going to keep that from happening. I mean,

12 every valve we had, if it's not in the king valve after

13 the -- you know, the hot gas valve, the modulated hot

14 gas valve that we get, you would never get it to close

15 off.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: They all have --

17 MR. STEM: And if I'm bleeding hot gas, you

18 know, a standard rating test, if I'm bleeding hot gas

19 into the coil, it is not going to be good for me,

20 either one. So that is one other thing to think about.

21 MR. FLY: You know, from a technology

22 standpoint, a lot of this is going away. I think these
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1 are on the decline, the exception being probably

2 dedicated outdoor air system, which is going to be

3 difficult to define because we are getting into ten or

4 eight percent outside air. Is that dedicated or not?

5 But, you know, when you have high -- high

6 turndown, when you have a need to make one or two

7 degrees of cooling and some final condition, then you

8 have to really kill the capacity of that compressor and

9 provide a little bit -- that is really their

10 application for that.

11 I think it will look completely different in

12 here.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, no question about that.

14 The technology is --

15 MR. FLY: Those big compressors are going to

16 come up.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. You know, with the

18 technologies that are coming out, it is going to

19 diminish

20 MS. BARHYDT: The current volume.

21 MR. MARANTAN: What are some of those other

22 technologies?
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Variable speed compressors, you

2 know, modulating compressors that have step modulation

3 coming down in relative size.

4 MR. FLY: Things that we don't know about

5 yet.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

7 MR. FLY: Haven't invented yet probably.

8 MR. RIVEST: How would you demonstrate the

9 benefit of a new technology, this technology --

10 MR. FLY: In a part load rating.

11 MR. AMRANE: IER.

12 MR. FLY: IER. It will show up a lot in IER.

13 MR. WHITWELL: The benefit of this is only in

14 part load.

15 MR. FLY: So basically what you are doing

16 with this is you are false loading that compressor with

17 its own condenser gas. So you are almost -- I mean,

18 you are not quite running at 100 percent power at a

19 part load condition, but you are running at slightly

20 less. So if you are running at 25 percent load

21 condition, say as a single compressor unit, you know,

22 you are probably running 90 percent of the power and 25
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1 percent of the cooling with hot gas bypassing the

2 valve. So it's a big deal.

3 MS. JAKOBS: A better place on the motor --

4 MR. FLY: Yeah. So --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: So, and what it was used for

6 kind of in the past is, you know, a little bit of what

7 Mark was saying yesterday of the, you know, process

8 application where the toner had to be at a certain

9 dehumidification point and certain grains, and you had

10 to make sure that that was happening. When your lowest

11 step was still 20 tons of a circuit, you needed somehow

12 a way to get down to a 10-ton kind of a way so you were

13 false loading that circuit so that it would stay dried

14 out, dehumidified, and keep those grains of that -- in

15 that particular process, whatever it might be, whether

16 it is --

17 MR. FLY: Or you can turn it off and on.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Because turning it off

19 and on was the other way of doing it, driving that

20 temperature way down just like we were talking about

21 this conference room, and waste energy doing that when

22 we did that. So these are the kind of a way to get
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1 that other step.

2 And now modulating, we are going to be able

3 to go down weight, hopefully, you know, below those 20-

4 ton circuits with modulating compressors and step

5 compressors and things like that to provide those kind

6 of things. And they are more optimized in their motor

7 performance, and the compressors are more optimized, so

8 you are going to have a better operating map.

9 MR. FLY: But that is an emerging technology

10 that most of us don't offer now -- well, hardly any of

11 us offer now because the compressor manufacturer hasn't

12 gotten there yet.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

14 MR. FLY: But it is coming.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It is coming.

16 MR. FLY: It is coming. They are all working

17 on it.

18 MR. RIVEST: And this part load test is in

19 development.

20 MR. WHITWELL: IER? It's in AHRI's

21 certification program.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. I mean, in AHRI, in
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1 the test procedure, we, AHRI, said -- you know, made it

2 -- I mean, we didn't -- we made a test procedure so

3 they could --

4 MR. FLY: Like we made an EER and SEER and

5 everything else. So it was -- it is a 25, 50, 75, and

6 100 percent load weighted average, with differing heat

7 conditions in each one of those. So it is four tests

8 for one, which is a boom to our testing labs.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

10 MR. FLY: It also limits their capacity

11 because they have to do four tests for one number.

12 MR. RIVEST: So with a change in metric, this

13 option --

14 MR. FLY: It's a change in metric, which is -

15 -

16 MR. RIVEST: -- would have to be tested.

17 MR. FLY: So it's a change in metric that

18 shows up, and it -- because of the significant impact.

19 It is something that we should be judged on, because we

20 need to be --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

22 MR. FLY: -- the people that do variable
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1 speed compressors or more steps should get credit for

2 it because they do save energy.

3 MR. RIVEST: So if it exempted now, if it is

4 exempted until some other metric --

5 MR. WHITWELL: I think if this metric changes

6 to IER, then it should not be exempted.

7 MR. RIVEST: And under current test procedure

8 conditions, it is not behaving in part load, so it is -

9 - the reality is it --

10 MR. WHITWELL: The intent would be for it to

11 be -- for all of the valves to be closed, so the flow

12 does not go through the bypass.

13 MR. RIVEST: And it's not like there is a

14 more efficient way to do that or that we are -- might

15 not measure -- might not -- instead of closing the

16 valves, it --

17 MR. FLY: Well, not buying it, you don't have

18 to worry about it.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: You won't have to worry about

20 those valves or if they are leaking or have any issue.

21 MR. FLY: This valve is actually a pressure

22 regulator is what it is. It regulates the suction
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1 pressure to make sure that it doesn't go too low.

2 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah. I heard someone mention

3 earlier that these were declining in prevalence. Could

4 someone quantify that?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm sorry?

6 MR. MARANTAN: I heard someone say that these

7 were declining in prevalence.

8 MR. FLY: I said they were declining. I

9 don't know about, I mean --

10 MS. MEYERS: I don't that I would agree with

11 that from our standpoint.

12 MR. FLY: Really?

13 MR. MARANTAN: Are they low currently?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: What do we consider low? Can

15 everyone --

16 MALE SPEAKER: Up to two percent.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Sales?

18 MR. MARANTAN: Medium?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Medium.

20 MR. MARANTAN: Two to 10?

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Uh-huh. Well, okay. Here we

22 go. I'm sorry. It is medium on our 20- through 63-ton
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1 kind of product. Never used on our smaller products.

2 Never. So, and that is where the high volume is,

3 hundreds of thousands of units versus thousands of

4 units. So I guess if I put that all in the mix, yes, I

5 guess maybe it does get down to a two percent.

6 MR. FLY: Large product? Medium?

7 MR. MARANTAN: Okay.

8 MR. FLY: Five years from now it won't be,

9 but it --

10 MR. MARANTAN: And in terms of the test

11 procedure, we talked about IEER and we should capture

12 part load metric. All right.

13 MR. EISNER: Why don't we take a 10-minute

14 break now, come back about 12 after, 13 after.

15 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

16 MR. EISNER: Does everybody want to break for

17 lunch around 12:00, because we started so early? Come

18 back -- remember, today is the day we only go to about

19 3:00, and I want to leave a little time at the end to

20 talk about the reports to ASRAC. So why don't we get

21 going where we left off.

22 MR. SHEBIK: About 11:30 maybe?
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1 MR. EISNER: What time? 11:30? I'm hungry

2 already, so 11:30 is fine with me.

3 I think we need a vote. All those who want

4 to break at 11:30, raise your hand. All those who want

5 to break at 11:45, raise your hand. All those who

6 don't want lunch?

7 All right. I think 11:30 has it. We will

8 break at 11:30.

9 Okay. Where are we?

10 MR. MYERS: The break is at 11:30, you said?

11 MR. EISNER: Lunch is 11:30. We can revote

12 on this if we want to count votes, but I think 11:30 is

13 --

14 MR. MARANTAN: Do you want to cover the new

15 ones?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Let's do sound traps and

17 attenuators.

18 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we are going to move

19 to sound traps, sound attenuators next.

20 Okay. The definition we have is --

21 MR. STEM: I'm sorry. Did you finish hot

22 gas? Or did we leave that up in the air?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: We are done. We are done.

2 MR. STEM: We're done with it?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

4 MR. STEM: Okay.

5 MR. FLY: But there is no decision on the --

6 MS. BARHYDT: No. No. We have got a whole

7 big list here.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: But did you have a solution,

9 Mike?

10 MR. STEM: Well, no. I mean, if it's test

11 procedure, I was going to say I'd want us to try to add

12 steam valves and define it, but probably not preferred.

13 But that didn't -- I'm sorry. I'm --

14 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Sound traps. An

15 assembly of structures through which the supply air

16 passes before leaving the equipment or through the

17 return air from the building passes immediately after

18 entering the equipment for which the sound insertion

19 loss is at least three decibels for the 125 Hertz

20 octave band frequency range. So we have quantified the

21 performance, and that is subject to discussion.

22 MR. RIVEST: Was it me?
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1 MR. FLY: I mean, I guess that's fine. I

2 don't know that that's quantifying it. That's not much

3 of a sound trap, but you said it did something.

4 MS. BARHYDT: What would be the normal

5 expectation for a sound trap?

6 MR. MYERS: It's, you know, at 125 Hertz, six

7 to 10 probably. 125 Hertz is probably not the best

8 range to peg; 500 would be better because they do a lot

9 more.

10 MR. FLY: But the specs vary.

11 MR. MYERS: But the specs vary. They are

12 really designed per application.

13 MR. FLY: Absolutely. You have buildings

14 where your standard equipment just doesn't quite make

15 the required level, so you put on three dB at 125. You

16 have other schools and even local school requirements

17 that require many times this at a broader --

18 MR. MYERS: So, I mean, I might get three dB

19 by changing the discharge liner on some of the big

20 equipment, so it could be -- you could say you had a

21 sound trap and not really have a sound trap at that

22 level.
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1 MS. MEYERS: For three dB; right?

2 MR. MYERS: For three dB. If you get above

3 six, the theoretical maximum for a plenum attenuation

4 is somewhere around seven, in that range, so if you get

5 up around six or seven --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: And I think you had this all on

7 the supply side where we said that they could be supply

8 side, return side, or outside air intake. So they can

9 be in all different positions.

10 MR. FLY: He did say "return" here. There is

11 "return" on the third line down.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay.

13 MR. MARANTAN: Are you suggesting to raise

14 the three to six?

15 MR. FLY: I think I would raise the three to

16 six. That would be a good --

17 MR. MARANTAN: So then there is no question

18 that it's a device.

19 MR. FLY: Not just a treatment of the

20 cabinet.

21 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So how often are these

22 installed or provided with units?
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1 MR. FLY: They can be provided internal or

2 external. They were probably provided a fair amount of

3 external, especially with the new CM standard.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. But from the factory, it

5 is about --

6 MR. FLY: I don't know. You probably see

7 more of them than I do.

8 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I would consider it low.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: It's low.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Are there different approaches

11 to doing this?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Uh-huh.

13 MS. BARHYDT: That impact efficiency?

14 MR. FLY: Well, the bigger they are, the less

15 they impact efficiency. And so if you move them inside

16 the unit, where we are running typically at 500 feet a

17 minute, they impact efficiency less than if you put

18 them in the ductwork where you are running usually

19 closer to a thousand.

20 MR. JOHNSON: Right. I mean, it's all

21 pressure drop.

22 MR. FLY: It is all pressure drop related,
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1 so, I mean, that is one of the reasons people like to

2 put it in there. Now, they only go in great big

3 equipment. You are not going to shove them into a

4 five-ton unit --

5 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

6 MR. FLY: -- because there is nowhere to put

7 it.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. They are all in the 20 -

9 -

10 MR. FLY: They are part of the dilemma that

11 we get into where we are trying to meet multiple codes

12 and standards driven by multiple sets of people. This

13 is actually regulated under the access board.

14 MS. JAKOBS: Right. The Americans With

15 Disabilities Act has new requirements for schools.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And this is another

17 example where, you know, not all manufacturers supply

18 this as part of the equipment. And so, you know, in

19 that case it is always put on in the field. Right? So

20 --

21 MR. FLY: For the other guys.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. And it's very similar
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1 to some of the other things that we have talked about

2 where if it is not provided as part of the equipment,

3 it is going to be done by the -- you know, in the

4 installation.

5 MR. FLY: Which may have an impact on

6 efficiency.

7 MR. WHITWELL: May have more impact on

8 efficiency, more or less or -- you know, more or less

9 effectivity.

10 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. In terms of those

11 impacts, I see that you have five to 15 percent

12 depending on the equipment size. We also had low to

13 medium. So it would be medium?

14 MR. JOHNSON: I would say medium to high,

15 actually.

16 MR. MYERS: Is there a feeling as to how many

17 of these attenuation systems are installed outside the

18 equipment versus inside the equipment?

19 MR. FLY: Or probably even a better question,

20 how many are installed after the equipment is

21 installed? And come back and get retrofitted in which

22 is always really ugly. So, no, I mean, we don't have a
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1 good feel for that. It is -- you know, if you are

2 building a concert hall or an opera house or any of

3 that stuff, it is going to happen, without question.

4 Schools that are falling under the new

5 requirements, you know, to meet those requirements,

6 which not everyone has come up to speed on but are

7 rapidly being adopted state by state, a lot of those

8 are going to have this equipment to meet those levels.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So it sounds like you think

10 that these are going to become more common as a result

11 of some of the code requirements.

12 MR. FLY: They are probably going to become

13 more common, in schools especially. That's really the

14 driver right now.

15 MR. MYERS: Is it a safe statement to say in

16 general that if it is installed with the equipment,

17 that if the installation needs sound attenuation, that

18 is more efficient to install it in the equipment?

19 That's what I thought I heard --

20 MR. FLY: Generally, it is more efficient to

21 install it in the equipment. But it takes big

22 equipment to install it in.
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1 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. But I see this becoming a

2 growing part of smaller size equipment, too.

3 MR. FLY: And it may be because schools don't

4 usually use great big equipment.

5 MS. MEYERS: So today it is mostly in the

6 larger size, but the growing area is going to be in the

7 smaller package units, which is going to be difficult.

8 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. How would this be

9 handled in a test procedure? Good question.

10 MR. JOHNSON: I don't think you --

11 MR. AMRANE: How are you going to change to

12 six dB? You'll have to test for sound now? I mean,

13 this is --

14 MS. MEYERS: I have no idea, actually.

15 MR. AMRANE: It would be outside.

16 MS. BARHYDT: But so, apart from whether or

17 not it qualifies as a sound trap, if you run the test

18 procedure it says that it causes the pressure drop, but

19 apart from the pressure drop and the fan having to work

20 harder, does the test procedure work? Will the test

21 procedure run on it?

22 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. This is like -- this is
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1 very much like high efficiency filtration. Now you are

2 adding a bunch of pressure drop and you are going to go

3 to a bigger fan motor. And in the bigger equipment,

4 maybe even a different fan, you know, so this is very

5 much like the high efficiency filtration.

6 MR. FLY: So you can test it, but you are in

7 danger of falling outside the --

8 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

9 MR. FLY: -- standards.

10 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

11 MR. FLY: That is the problem.

12 MR. JOHNSON: And you can't really pull these

13 out of the equipment.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. No way to bypass it

15 either --

16 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

17 MS. BARHYDT: -- in the test.

18 MR. FLY: So the alternative is for us to

19 quit supplying them and put them in the duct where they

20 probably are going to cause two inches of static

21 instead of one inch, or exempt them.

22 MR. SACHS: You all aren't getting the point.
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1 You are asking for exemptions on everything, and all

2 our energy savings are going away.

3 MS. MEYERS: But we don't want exemptions on

4 the basic refrigeration system.

5 MR. SACHS: Thank you, ma'am. I really

6 appreciate that.

7 MS. MEYERS: We are not asking for that.

8 MR. SACHS: But you do want to use shaded

9 pull motors.

10 MR. WHITWELL: If we can still hit the

11 efficiency.

12 MR. FLY: It is getting harder and harder,

13 though.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: But I love that cost point.

15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one we have is

16 fire/smoke/isolation dampers.

17 MS. BARHYDT: And this one we are okay with

18 excluding. So unless somebody particularly wants to

19 discuss the details, my main concern is on the

20 definition and making sure it is clear exactly what it

21 is that is excluded.

22 MR. MARANTAN: So the definition is a damper
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1 assembly, including means to open and close a damper

2 mounted at the supply or return duct opening of the

3 equipment. Such a damper must be rated by an

4 appropriate test lab, according to the appropriate

5 safety standard such as UL-555 or UL-555S.

6 MR. FLY: Okay. There are applications where

7 these are isolation dampers and fire/smoke dampers.

8 For instance, if you have a building design where they

9 have multiple units on a common duct, doesn't happen

10 very often but it is kind of like a central loop

11 chilled water system, only with air.

12 They may want to turn some units off and

13 leave others running, which is -- there is no better

14 efficiency than off, by the way. So they want to

15 isolate those units, so you don't backflow air out of

16 the supply duct, in which case they are not necessarily

17 555- or 555S-rated dampers.

18 So that is the definition of a fire/smoke

19 damper, though.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Is the isolation damper on the

21 unit itself, or is it in the ductwork for the building?

22 MR. FLY: It could be either place, but we
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1 get asked to put them in our ductwork because if it's -

2 - if you are 60-foot high up to the ceiling, it is hard

3 to get up there and replace that damper actuator motor.

4 They would much rather have it on the floor of the unit

5 inside.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: So they are put in the

7 openings, the supply and return duct openings, right

8 before it goes up -- either on the curb or if there was

9 discharge horizontally.

10 MR. FLY: Technically, my standpoint has

11 always been that the fire damper ought to be at the

12 slab, because it is at the firewall surface. There

13 again, they have to be tested periodically, and if it's

14 an inaccessible place, especially in hospitals with

15 sheetrock ceilings or something, a lot of times they

16 want us to put them in the units.

17 From a manufacturer's standpoint, I don't

18 know that we would be real upset if somebody told us we

19 couldn't do this anymore. From an engineering

20 standpoint, though, the sales guys probably have a

21 different opinion.

22 MR. STEPHENS: You know they are going to
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1 read the transcripts, right?

2 MR. FLY: Yeah. That's probably right. I

3 just got in trouble with my boss.

4 MR. MYERS: So should that definition -- so

5 it should say, "Such dampers may be rated" or --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

7 MR. MYERS: "May be rated"?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. It's basically a fire

9 damper.

10 MS. BARHYDT: How do you describe -- how

11 would you define an isolation damper?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: They are almost the exact same

13 device, but just not always rated. So looking at them,

14 you wouldn't be able to necessarily see the difference.

15 MR. MYERS: Yeah. You might have one that is

16 capable of meeting that, but they didn't need so they

17 didn't get that approval.

18 MR. FLY: Well, and typically the difference

19 is that the fire and smoke dampers have to have -- if

20 they have rubber seals on them, they have to be rated

21 for a temperature and they have to go through all of

22 this fire testing, so that the seals don't melt off of
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1 them. If it just isolation damper, you don't need

2 that. So you can use a different seal material that

3 might seal better but doesn't stand the temperature.

4 If you call it a fire/smoke damper, which is required

5 by the building codes, which basically are a part of

6 the architectural design of the building, then you have

7 to have 555 or 555S.

8 MR. MARANTAN: Are we okay with this

9 definition now?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

11 MR. FLY: Yeah.

12 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. In terms of impacts to

13 energy use, we characterize it as low to medium. You

14 had one to five percent, which is consistent.

15 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have to go through all

16 of this as far as I know.

17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So the next one, then,

18 is UV lights. The definition we have is a lighting

19 fixture and lamp mounted so that it shines light on the

20 indoor coil that emits ultraviolet light to inhibit

21 growth of organisms on the indoor coil surfaces, the

22 condensate drip pan, and/or other locations within the
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1 equipment.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Key thing here on those is that

3 they are on all of the time. So that is actually a

4 safety issue for our lab technicians to be looking at

5 these. They burn your retinas.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Well, we are okay with

7 excluding it. I just want to make sure we have what

8 everybody else mentioned.

9 MR. FLY: Yeah, yeah.

10 MR. MARANTAN: So how does the definition

11 look?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: That's about the same.

13 MR. MARANTAN: Acceptable? Okay.

14 MS. BARHYDT: And then the additional

15 features that they added to their list.

16 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah. You have a couple of

17 other items included in yours and --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, sometimes they do

19 activate germicides that are in -- actually impregnated

20 in materials. So they help in the activation of a

21 germicide that has already been placed on stationary

22 surfaces.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Are you saying we need to --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: That is not just irradiating

3 growth, but it is also activating a chemical.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And it inhibits --

5 MS. TUCKER: It still inhibits growth, but it

6 --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

8 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So how do we want to

9 proceed? There is about a dozen more that were

10 included in the other document.

11 MS. BARHYDT: So is there color coding, or

12 what is the --

13 MR. FLY: I think that would be -- the color

14 coding had to do with our edit.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

16 MR. FLY: So I don't think they mean

17 anything.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So --

19 MR. FLY: At what point they got done, this

20 wouldn't --

21 MS. BARHYDT: So air blenders?

22 MR. FLY: Air blenders are another outside
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1 air device that mixes the outside and return air to get

2 an even temperature, typically in real cold climates,

3 so that you don't get a lot of stratification through

4 the unit, so if the ductwork splits, and one goes right

5 and one goes left, the cold air doesn't go down the

6 right side and the hot air go down the left side, which

7 can happen.

8 But they have reasonably high static

9 pressure, typically right after the economizer. So

10 they are kind of economizer -- you don't have them

11 unless you have an economizer.

12 MR. JOHNSON: Well, and but they are also

13 very similar to sound traps, too. I mean, they just

14 add a lot of static pressure.

15 MR. FLY: They add a lot of static pressure

16 for a specific purpose. Would do nothing during a test

17 standard.

18 MS. BARHYDT: So you would never have one of

19 these if you did not have an economizer.

20 MR. JOHNSON: No.

21 MR. FLY: No.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Because we are already
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1 excluding economizers, so --

2 MR. FLY: So if you want to call it part of

3 the economizer, we are fine with that.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Electric heat.

5 MR. WHITWELL: This can be installed in the

6 unit as an alternative to having gas or propane heat,

7 and it does add to the internal static pressure.

8 MR. MARANTAN: Isn't this already addressed

9 in the product class structure?

10 MR. WHITWELL: No. It is electric or none,

11 so it's -- electric heat is -- I mean, it's treated the

12 same as having nothing in there, from a product class

13 perspective.

14 MR. AMRANE: Are you sure about that?

15 Because I think that the definition --

16 MR. WHITWELL: There is --

17 MR. AMRANE: It is electric or none. It is

18 the same efficiency when you have gas.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Right, right, right. So if

20 that was the question, yes, it does say electric --

21 MR. AMRANE: Electric or none.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.
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1 MR. AMRANE: So I think it is covered by the

2 current that will be -- maybe it's a mistake, I don't

3 know, but --

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I'll say.

5 MR. RIVEST: If it's in the product class

6 definition, it's going to be hard to take it out.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

8 MR. MARANTAN: So in that case, can we remove

9 it?

10 MR. WHITWELL: I guess that would be the

11 question. I don't know.

12 MR. RIVEST: You can remove the exclusion,

13 not the --

14 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

15 Sorry. I couldn't hear the --

16 MR. RIVEST: Well, if the name "electric" is

17 the definition of the product class, I think it is

18 intended to be tested.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. This was -- you know,

20 the whole intent here was to try to be complete.

21 MR. FLY: So we talk about all of them.

22 MR. WHITWELL: We talk about all of them.
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1 MR. JOHNSON: Well, and we address electric

2 heat later for the water source heat pump because, you

3 know, when you put electric heat in a smaller cabinet,

4 like a water source heat pump, it does add some

5 resistance. I mean, it is a different -- it is a

6 little bit different design. Not a huge difference,

7 but it's there.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Do you want to jump ahead to

9 that one, or do you want to wait until we --

10 MR. AMRANE: I think we should finish this

11 one.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Just go through the list?

13 MR. AMRANE: And then go back to the items

14 that we --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. So go ahead and jump

16 down to the electric?

17 MR. AMRANE: No. What I'm saying is that

18 maybe complete whatever is related to those about

19 unitary products.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

21 MR. AMRANE: And then come back to the water

22 source heat pump separately.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, I think that is --

2 MR. AMRANE: That's it. So we're done.

3 Okay.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Yep. Yep.

5 MR. MARANTAN: So electric heat came out,

6 right?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

8 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. The next one is

9 actually for PTACs, extended depth wall sleeves, normal

10 wall sleeve depth is 14, extended sleeve 16 to 31.

11 MR. AMRANE: Right. I think we need to talk

12 about the definition itself.

13 MS. BARHYDT: The definition itself, yeah.

14 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Because I think we are

15 using the old definition and we need to change that.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

17 MR. AMRANE: And then go to the options as

18 well, so -- I think I have a definition if you want to

19 -- I have a definition, so -- I have it electronic if

20 you want to, but if you want to type or I have a --

21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I don't have a thing. I

22 can type it. It's not a big deal. This is going to
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1 take me a minute, guys, so --

2 MR. SACHS: How many chapters are in the

3 definitions?

4 MR. AMRANE: This is similar to the other

5 definition. It is very similar.

6 MR. EISNER: I think the word "or" should be

7 "of." Btu/h of one another.

8 MR. SACHS: Does anybody in captivity ever

9 order the PTAC with eight pipes and UV purification?

10 MR. AMRANE: That's a good question.

11 MR. SACHS: Has anyone present ever sold a

12 PTAC with UV?

13 MR. JOHNSON: I'm not sure we need to list

14 all of these options. I mean --

15 MR. AMRANE: Well, it has been suggested, and

16 that's why it is up for discussion, because --

17 MR. SACHS: Because these are not space18 constrained at all.

19 MR. HUNT: There is a place. There is a way

20 you can put UV in there.

21 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, there is, but --

22 MR. HUNT: And there is a side story about
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1 that I will tell you later.

2 MR. SACHS: I understand. But the question,

3 sir, was, has anyone ever ordered --

4 MR. HUNT: Yeah.

5 MR. SACHS: Really?

6 MR. HUNT: Yeah.

7 MR. SACHS: So you can't underestimate --

8 okay. Well, thank you.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Be careful, Harvey.

10 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So this is the proposed

11 definition on the screen here. Why don't we talk about

12 the top part first? Is everyone okay with the top

13 part?

14 MR. AMRANE: The only one in the room,

15 unfortunately. They are the folks who are probably

16 don't -- the guy on the phone that --

17 MR. WHITWELL: We are only a few years

18 removed from having this product. I would take

19 "expansion device" out.

20 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, you're right. That might

21 be --

22 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. Because we took it --
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1 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. We took it from the other

2 one, yeah.

3 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. "Fresh air ventilation"

4 maybe, not "dampers." The grill options are there, but

5 that -- it would be more architectural --

6 MR. WHITWELL: Those are accessories, not

7 options.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. That's true, too. That

9 would be an accessory.

10 MR. WHITWELL: I would take that out.

11 MR. JOHNSON: Well, the extended wall sleeve

12 is really --

13 MR. FLY: An accessory, too. And does that

14 change the rating?

15 MR. JOHNSON: Well, the extended wall sleeve

16 is normally -- a wall sleeve is normally 14 inches. It

17 can go all the way up to 31 inches.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Does it impact the --

19 MR. FLY: Do you need to change the equipment

20 for one with an extended wall sleeve as opposed to one

21 without?

22 MR. JOHNSON: No. What this really is is all
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1 about the test, you know --

2 MR. FLY: The test procedure?

3 MR. JOHNSON: Test procedure. I think it is

4 more of a test procedure issue, isn't it? You just

5 take your basic unit and test it.

6 MR. AMRANE: But for right now that -- there

7 are two standards for PTAC. There is the standard

8 size, 14 by -- well, 16 by 42.

9 MR. JOHNSON: 16 by 42.

10 MR. AMRANE: And then there is the known

11 standard size PTAC, which is, what, it has --

12 MR. JOHNSON: Less than 16 by 42.

13 MR. AMRANE: -- less than 16 by 42. So you

14 are talking about greater than 16. What are you

15 talking about here?

16 MR. WHITWELL: No. The 16 by 42, it's 16 by

17 42, right? And what this I think is talking about is

18 the sleeve or --

19 THE COURT REPORTER: Can we do one at a time?

20 Sorry. I'm not catching it.

21 MR. WHITWELL: I think it's deeper sleeve for

22 thicker wall.
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1 MR. MARANTAN: It is, yeah. The standard

2 wall sleeve is about 14 inches, and GE and ourselves

3 have seen wall sleeves go up to 31 inches, just because

4 of the wall thickness that we are applying these in.

5 MR. FLY: Is that an accessory or is that

6 shipped with the unit, or shipped on the unit?

7 MR. MARANTAN: Well, it is -- you know,

8 usually PTACs are shipped as the chasses, and then the

9 wall sleeve is an accessory or an option.

10 MR. WHITWELL: It is shipped ahead of the

11 chasses, so that they are installed in the building at

12 the time the building is being built. And then the

13 chasses get put in later. But it is required for test.

14 You need the wall sleeve for test.

15 MR. JOHNSON: So, and normally and that would

16 be a standard wall sleeve, 16 by 42, and 14 inches

17 deep.

18 MR. MARANTAN: In terms of energy impact, the

19 estimate you provided was three to five percent for the

20 largest wall sleeve, a 31-inch wall sleeve.

21 MR. JOHNSON: I'm sorry. Say that again.

22 MR. MARANTAN: For the largest wall sleeve,
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1 the 31-inch wall sleeve, the estimate for energy

2 impacts was three to five percent.

3 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

4 MR. MARANTAN: In terms of testing, would it

5 be reasonable just to order a unit with a standard wall

6 sleeve?

7 MR. JOHNSON: It would be my suggestion that

8 is what we would do, yes.

9 MS. BARHYDT: How does the wall sleeve impact

10 the efficiency?

11 MR. JOHNSON: We don't change the equipment,

12 so you are adding static pressure on the outside air

13 fan.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think the other thing,

15 too, is, remember, the air is coming -- the condenser

16 air goes in and out through the back. So you could

17 possibly have more recirculation.

18 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, you could. That's right.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

20 MR. DOPPEL: But you are also -- it is almost

21 like creating like side ducts, too.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Well, yeah. There is going to
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1 be some static pressure.

2 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

3 MR. SACHS: But three to five percent of the

4 fan energy or three to five percent of the --

5 MR. DOPPEL: Condenser fan. Condenser fan.

6 MR. SACHS: -- condenser fan energy, but that

7 is not three to five percent of the --

8 MS. BARHYDT: On the EER.

9 MR. SACHS: -- of the EER.

10 MR. JOHNSON: I'd have to go back and look at

11 what the --

12 MR. DOPPEL: I am assuming. I don't know --

13 I am assuming that they are talking about total unit

14 efficiency, right?

15 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. It would be total

16 unit efficiency.

17 MR. DOPPEL: Well, if you mention wall

18 sleeve, where, you know, everything just moves right

19 there, and then you add up to 17 inches, and then you

20 have dividers, do you can -- you know, in essence, you

21 create 17 inches worth of ductwork. So that increases

22 the fan power required to overcome that.
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1 MR. SACHS: I understand that. I guess I'm

2 just surprised that the initial fan power is that large

3 a fraction of the total energy tab at five percent

4 effect on EER. I'm sure it's true; it just sort of

5 surprised me.

6 MR. DOPPEL: Well, it's --

7 MR. WHITWELL: That's not fan power you're

8 talking -- that's the impact on the refrigeration

9 system.

10 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. I mean --

11 MR. WHITWELL: You are driving up the

12 condensing temperature.

13 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. The circulation of that

14 air really hurts the compressor power. So --

15 MR. SACHS: It is what it is.

16 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

17 MR. SACHS: I think the only thing to do is

18 to just test them with the basic sleeve, recognizing

19 that the customer ain't going to get what she thinks

20 she is getting.

21 MR. JOHNSON: Right. And I don't have -- I

22 honestly don't have a number for how many times we see
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1 an extended wall sleeve, and, you know, what that

2 usually is.

3 MR. SACHS: Well, thinking of these comments

4 being fairly common applications of roadside

5 hospitality and stuff like that, is the whole market

6 system such that the designer is going to understand

7 the implications?

8 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. And where you also see

9 this is in the high density areas like New York City.

10 New York City uses a lot of people.

11 MR. DOPPEL: They would also use more of the

12 extended -- because that is -- a lot of the hospitality

13 is not thick wall.

14 MR. SACHS: Yeah.

15 MR. DOPPEL: So I think this would be very,

16 very low.

17 MR. JOHNSON: I would venture to say it's --

18 MR. DOPPEL: The high efficiency air

19 filtration, I mean, that's -- it's pretty much --

20 MR. JOHNSON: Well, again, in a PTAC unit,

21 the standard filter is a MERV 3.

22 MR. DOPPEL: Right. Generally, there is not
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1 room for much more than that.

2 MR. JOHNSON: Right. But you will go above a

3 MERV 3. You get the request for as much MERV as you

4 can in that. A water source I know will go up to MERV

5 13.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Are those factory options, or

7 are they accessory filters?

8 MR. JOHNSON: Well, on a PTAC, they would

9 have to be factory. It has to be in the unit.

10 MR. WHITWELL: The higher efficiency filter?

11 MR. JOHNSON: Any filter.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Because I think ours -- we

13 ship with a standard and then we would have an

14 accessory that would --

15 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

16 MR. MYERS: I mean, the duct, that's

17 installed in the field.

18 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

19 MR. MYERS: So I don't think that should be

20 on here.

21 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

22 MR. MARANTAN: How about relative volume?
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1 Did someone mention a number?

2 MR. JOHNSON: For extended wall sleeves?

3 MR. MARANTAN: Yes.

4 MR. JOHNSON: I am going to say low.

5 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. And the test procedure

6 modification, I heard someone agree that just testing

7 with a standard sleeve is okay.

8 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I think that would be

9 the right approach. Harvey said that.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay?

11 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. I think we are good

12 with extended wall sleeve.

13 Now, there were some other items on the basic

14 model definition that didn't have any inputs in the --

15 MR. DOPPEL: Well, some of those should be

16 taken off, you know, after that. Like the ducting,

17 that should be taken off.

18 MR. MARANTAN: Okay.

19 MR. AMRANE: What else?

20 MR. DOPPEL: UV is covered. Karim, I don't

21 know where this list came from.

22 MR. WHITWELL: I know we looked at it from
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1 time to time, but we never implemented it.

2 MR. MARANTAN: All right. So we can take it

3 off?

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

5 MR. MARANTAN: And heat pipes?

6 MR. WHITWELL: And heat pipes, too.

7 MR. MARANTAN: Heat pipes?

8 MR. WHITWELL: And the fresh air ventilation,

9 that is just a door.

10 MR. AMRANE: We can follow Frank from GE.

11 MR. JOHNSON: I think if this list -- I don't

12 know if this came from GE. I know he chimed in on the

13 extended wall sleeves, and maybe the -- what's his name

14 from GE has come back with things. You know, it's the

15 stuff that -- the one-offs maybe they have been asked

16 about or have done in the past with it. I don't

17 recognize a lot of that.

18 MR. DOPPEL: The sound-reducing packages,

19 that is to get the STC -- you know, the minimum STC. I

20 don't know that anything has been added. It is just --

21 MR. JOHNSON: Different design or different

22 fan?
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1 MR. DOPPEL: Filling in different holes,

2 because you are basically -- I mean, it might be more

3 insulation to keep the barrier.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

5 MR. DOPPEL: But I don't think that that is -

6 - I can't think of anything on there that would change

7 --

8 MR. JOHNSON: I think what happens if you

9 order your -- you know, your basic PTAC model and a

10 standard sleeve, most all of these basically go away.

11 Because it really is an installation issue?

12 MS. TUCKER: So keep "extended wall sleeves"

13 and get rid of everything else?

14 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

15 MR. AMRANE: Even the filtration and --

16 MR. JOHNSON: Well, yeah, you could have

17 different filtration. I would take that back.

18 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we have high

19 efficiency air filtration and extended wall sleeves.

20 We talked about the wall sleeves.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Are there different issues with

22 the high efficiency filtration for PTACs than what we
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1 discussed previously for the --

2 MR. JOHNSON: No.

3 MR. DOPPEL: No.

4 MR. MARANTAN: Okay.

5 MR. DOPPEL: And I would say that would be

6 low. That would be very low.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Their MERVs are way

8 lower. I mean, do they even have a MERV on those

9 things?

10 MR. JOHNSON: No, it's MERV 3.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it MERV 3?

12 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Low volume of sales or low

14 impact, or both?

15 MR. DOPPEL: Very low volume of sales.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I just wasn't sure which

17 low you were referring to.

18 MR. WHITWELL: And they are not going to

19 change "fan motor." It is just going to be a reduced

20 airflow.

21 MR. AMRANE: When we discussed this before

22 for the product, we have talked about MERV 8 as being
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1 the --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: 3.

3 MR. AMRANE: -- 3 -- no, for the --

4 MR. JOHNSON: We said MERV 8.

5 MR. AMRANE: For this one, it is not MERV 8.

6 MR. JOHNSON: We added MERV 3 for water

7 source.

8 MR. AMRANE: Right. This one --

9 MR. JOHNSON: It should also be MERV 3.

10 MR. AMRANE: Okay. So it should be MERV 3.

11 MR. DOPPEL: The only other thing would be C12 COVE (ph) protection and then maybe coated coils.

13 MR. AMRANE: Maybe you should have put --

14 MS. TUCKER: Yes. You said MERV 3?

15 MR. AMRANE: 3.

16 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Are we done with PTACs?

17 MR. JOHNSON: I think so.

18 MR. MARANTAN: I think the next one is water

19 source. Okay. So going back to the list, we are at

20 24.

21 MR. AMRANE: The definition, too.

22 MR. MARANTAN: Definition? Let's start with
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1 the definition.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, good. Copy PTAC.

3 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. I think you can copy that

4 one.

5 MS. BARHYDT: That's right.

6 MR. AMRANE: Probably can remove the 300 btu

7 thing. It does not apply.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Just checking.

9 MS. TUCKER: Yeah, I got it.

10 MR. DOPPEL: Anybody flying to or through

11 Atlanta this afternoon? Well, there was a small

12 explosion at one of the maintenance places, so they had

13 to shut it down for a while. Delays.

14 MR. SACHS: If it has a compressor, it is not

15 really a gas heat pump. So the "or gas" seems to be

16 ruled out by the fact that it is compressor-based

17 equipment.

18 MR. STEM: No. Gas heat impacts the --

19 MR. SACHS: Ah. Okay. So that would be

20 electricity and gas.

21 MR. STEM: Yes.

22 MR. SACHS: That would be really weird on a
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1 water source. Does anyone catalogue a water source

2 heat pump with gas heat as opposed to a boiler, boiler

3 cooling tower system?

4 MR. JOHNSON: I can't answer that. I don't

5 know.

6 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So, on the copper tube and fin

8 air coil, correction capacitors, corrosion in water

9 coils, economizers, coated air coils, same sorts of

10 issues as we discussed for the air? Anything

11 particularly unique that you want to point out about

12 them? Pretty much the same down the board. If there

13 is anything in particular that you want to point out

14 that is -- that we should be thinking about that is

15 different about the water source test procedure, how

16 these are impacted --

17 MR. JOHNSON: Not really.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Let's a D super heater?

19 That wasn't on the other list.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's hooked up to the water

21 system. It is taking the heat off the condenser and

22 heating the domestic hot water.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Right. So it waste heat

2 basically to the -- rejecting the heat to the ambient

3 or whatever. It would basically use that heat to heat

4 the water.

5 So that's not on the list? Maybe we should

6 add that one, too. 24.

7 MS. TUCKER: It's on there.

8 MR. AMRANE: Oh, it's on there? Okay. Okay.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So for the pumps, valves,

10 fittings, I take it there is a standard configuration

11 of valves, pumps, fittings?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, gosh no.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So what do you supply in your

14 base model to AHRI for --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: These in a way are more like

16 accessories. I mean, they -- you know, they tend to

17 get shipped with the system but put in in the field.

18 MR. MARANTAN: How about when tested in a

19 lab?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, there are water

21 pressure drops, so they all matter that the pressure

22 dropped to the water side of the system. But I can't -
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1 - there is nothing in the test procedure that I can

2 remember that -- I am little bit more fuzzy on this

3 than air side, but -- that I can remember where you

4 would put these in. They just aren't accessories that

5 are shipped with the systems.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. STEM: Well, but if it's shipped with it,

8 then it can be in the INO.

9 MS. BARHYDT: What's that?

10 MR. STEM: If it's shipped with the system

11 and it's in the INO --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: What's that?

13 MR. STEM: -- if it's shipped with the

14 system, and it's in the INO, you don't have to put it

15 in. So we need to make sure we are -- I'm saying it's

16 there.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: And it all depends on their

18 system, how many of those pumps, how many of those

19 valves, and how many of those fittings they need. So

20 it is kind of built up depending on how the system is

21 going to be --

22 MR. FLY: Is water pressure drop part of the
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1 calculation in there?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, it is.

3 MR. FLY: Okay. That is another thing that

4 is kind of normalized out.

5 MR. STEM: Yes. They're talking about it,

6 you know, putting an inter-pump in there with a head

7 pressure regulator on it, and, you know, it's -- who

8 knows what that is doing with the -- trying to

9 normalize it out. I mean, we -- the intent of it was

10 to test without any of these accessories.

11 So we hook up, you know, our water loop and

12 run it, and we have pressure drop measurements we can

13 do to - - capacity corrections for that and the power

14 corrections. I don't think that those corrections were

15 intended to be used with accessories. We would have to

16 look at how that interacts.

17 MR. FLY: Mark Fly. The water source heat

18 pump test standard is based on an ISO standard, and it

19 is quite a bit different than many of our other

20 standards.

21 MR. JOHNSON: And we will factory install

22 strainers, valves, and pumps as options.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: Water source VRF systems are not

2 included with regular water source heat pumps, though.

3 MR. FLY: I don't believe they are.

4 MR. DOPPEL: No, they aren't. That's what

5 I'm saying; they aren't.

6 MR. AMRANE: You want this procedure? You

7 used the ISO or you --

8 MR. DOPPEL: No. We used our own.

9 MR. AMRANE: You used your own.

10 MR. DOPPEL: I just want to make sure

11 everyone is aware.

12 MR. MARANTAN: Are you good with that, Laura?

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

14 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Are there any others on

15 this list that we should discuss at this point?

16 MR. AMRANE: No.

17 MR. MARANTAN: That was Number 24.

18 MR. AMRANE: And 25?

19 MR. MARANTAN: 25? Corrosion-resistant water

20 coil?

21 MR. JOHNSON: Well, again, that is -- I mean,

22 it is --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Same issue, same --

2 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. 26, electric heaters.

3 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I mean, that was --

4 again, it is -- when you get into a smaller cabinet

5 like this and you are putting in an electric heater,

6 there is a little, you know, static pressure increase

7 to the fan. But it is a very low impact.

8 MR. MARANTAN: But we talked about the

9 electric in the other one. We removed it.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. But I don't know that

11 this does --

12 MR. AMRANE: There we have a product class.

13 And here we don't.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Here you don't have a product

15 class.

16 MR. JOHNSON: This is all in one.

17 MR. SACHS: Yeah.

18 MR. AMRANE: Just water source.

19 MR. SACHS: So one application is going to be

20 looking for corrosion-resistant --

21 MR. AMRANE: I don't know.

22 MR. SACHS: -- coil and a non-geothermal --
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1 MR. FLY: It will be a process.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Process stuff. Industrial.

3 Yeah.

4 MR. SACHS: It almost seems like unique skew

5 at 20 year?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, it's a unique skew.

7 MR. SACHS: Do we need to consider it?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: We are just trying to be

9 inclusive. I mean, I don't --

10 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. We are just trying to be

11 inclusive of the things that we do, even if it's a one12 off -- you know, once a year.

13 MR. FLY: And remember that water source heat

14 pumps are also rooftop package equipment.

15 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Which is also the size

17 of the market.

18 MR. FLY: I mean, it is not a very big

19 market, but, you know, that is where you get the gas

20 packs and that is where you can be --

21 MR. SACHS: I was thinking of this as being

22 on the water side rather than the aid side. I may have
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1 misinterpreted it.

2 MR. FLY: Is that corrosion-resistant?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be on both.

4 MR. SACHS: I guess I am used to titanium or

5 cooper nickel for water side.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: We have cooper nickel as a

7 possibility.

8 MR. SACHS: Very well, ma'am.

9 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We were on the electric

10 heaters.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Again, this is not a separate

12 product class code. So it is all one class. And they

13 do give a little bit. They are not going to be

14 energized, obviously, but they --

15 MR. JOHNSON: No.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: -- cooling COPs for this, but -

17 -

18 MR. JOHNSON: And I am also trying to think

19 of - - I'm not just looking at what Daikin does. I am

20 trying to look at what other manufacturers do and how

21 they install the electric heaters in their equipment.

22 And it could impact their performance more so than us.
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1 I don't have that answer.

2 MR. EISNER: We have a comment from Wes

3 Wostal on the phone.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, good. Good.

5 MR. EISNER: We?

6 MR. WOSTAL: Hello. Can you hear me?

7 MR. EISNER: Yes.

8 MR. WOSTAL: I got stuck out of my office for

9 a little bit. And when I walked back in, I heard you

10 guys talking about water source heat pumps and coated

11 coils, and I saw "condenser water reheat" was on the

12 screen and I just wanted to see if there was any

13 questions that there were with -- regarding water

14 source heat pumps.

15 And like I said, I missed about five minutes

16 of the conversation, so I was a little bit lost.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: He's better at it than I am.

18 MR. JOHNSON: Hey, Wes. This is Tom Johnson

19 with Daikin McQuay. I don't know --

20 MR. WOSTAL: Yes.

21 MR. JOHNSON: I don't know if you have in

22 front of you this list of options that we put together,
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1 factory-installed options.

2 MR. WOSTAL: I'm looking at it right now,

3 yes, I do.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Oh, okay. I wasn't sure if you

5 had that or not. Okay. So, again, we were just trying

6 to think of unique factory-installed options on water

7 source heat pump covered in the range of this program

8 that could affect performance. So that is the reason

9 behind this list.

10 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

11 MR. JOHNSON: And so --

12 MR. WOSTAL: One comment I do have, when I

13 first sat into the meeting, the discussion was on the

14 definition of hot gas bypass, and I don't know if it's

15 too late to go back to that, but I would give my two

16 cents on that. I would look at the definition of hot

17 gas bypass as not being necessarily the capacity

18 control, but you are artificially loading the

19 evaporator coil to keep it in a low -- in a very low

20 load situation to keep it from freezing.

21 And typically what -- the control is driven

22 by pressure and temperature, and you can set the valves
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1 to activate when the temperature usually gets down to

2 28, 29 degrees evaporating temperature to start putting

3 hot gas into the evaporator coil to keep it from

4 freezing. So my definition, or at least the way that

5 we've always applied it, would not be for capacity

6 control, but to keep the evaporator coil from freezing.

7 MR. JOHNSON: Correct.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. That's another

9 application on it. I agree, Wes.

10 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we added a couple of

11 words to the end of this sentence. It says --

12 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

13 MR. MARANTAN: -- "or to prevent evaporator

14 coil from freezing." Is that all right?

15 MR. JOHNSON: That's all right.

16 MR. WOSTAL: Yes.

17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So back to water source

18 --

19 MR. WOSTAL: Earlier, you guys were talking

20 about coated coils and there is coated air coils and

21 then there is corrosion-resistant water coils. I don't

22 know if there is any clarification that is needed on
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1 those two or not. Like I said, I was out of the office

2 for a few minutes. And when I came in, you guys were

3 discussing this, so I don't know what had been

4 discussed prior to, while I was out.

5 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. We were just getting to

6 corrosion-resistant water coil.

7 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

8 MR. MARANTAN: So we can start there. The

9 definition provided says that corrosion-resistant water

10 coils provide protection from corrosive items in the

11 water circuit.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Harvey, you had a question

13 about why these would need corrosion protection?

14 MR. SACHS: My experience in building --

15 MR. WOSTAL: The difficulty in our industry

16 is going to be a copper nickel -- or cooper nickel coil

17 for the water coil that would be for corrosion18 resistant applications. And the vast majority of the

19 time it is used in an open loop situation or a water

20 well situation where you don't know the quality of the

21 water or, you know, the quality of the water could

22 change over time.
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1 Now, in this situation, we are talking about

2 for a water source DOE only is interested in the water

3 loop heat pump rating, which typically water loop heat

4 pump -- well, it is -- by definition, it would be

5 typically a closed loop, and you would very, very

6 seldom ever see anything other than a copper coil as a

7 water coil.

8 MR. SACHS: So this can be deleted for the

9 building applications with closed loops, typically

10 treated water, that we are seeing in boiler cooling

11 towers related, non-geothermal, where geothermal

12 includes open loop systems.

13 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, we would agree. We put

14 this list together before I had the understanding that

15 geothermal is not covered in this, so --

16 MR. SACHS: Okay. So it's your fault.

17 MR. JOHNSON: It is my fault.

18 MR. EISNER: Okay. Time to break for lunch.

19 Forty-five minutes or an hour? What's the sense? Do

20 you guys need a full hour?

21 MR. SACHS: Two weeks.

22 MR. EISNER: 12:30.
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1 (Whereupon, at 11:33 a.m., the proceedings

2 in the foregoing matter recessed for lunch.)

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Is everybody ready to

4 start?

5 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. I guess we can pick up

6 where we left off here?

7 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

8 MR. MARANTAN: We were on the other table

9 there. Can we move to the other table? Okay. And I

10 think we stopped at 25, corrosion-resistant water

11 coils. And so the next item would be electric heaters,

12 and we discussed that a little earlier.

13 MR. JOHNSON: We got to that. Yeah.

14 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Laura, are you okay

15 with electric heaters?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Um-hum.

17 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. And we also touched

18 upon desuperheaters?

19 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

20 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So what about grill

21 options?

22 MR. JOHNSON: It's possible on a water source
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1 heat pump to have an open ceiling and a freestanding

2 water source heat pump and then have grill options

3 added to it. They are an option, although I'm not sure

4 where it should have been mounted, if you would either.

5 MR. MARANTAN: So in terms of --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, for a price we'll mount

7 them. I would say that most of them get shipped away

8 but not --

9 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: -- put on but --

11 MR. JOHNSON: For the most part you would --

12 it would ship with it.

13 MR. MARANTAN: You okay with that?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

15 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Next one is compressor

16 --

17 MR. JOHNSON: But that -- back up. My guys

18 are back on the line listening. He reminded me it's

19 not just the ceiling units. There's council-type units

20 that could have special grill options. I --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

22 MR. JOHNSON: -- council meaning floor-
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1 mounted units over here.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Used in schools?

3 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, used in schools. You can

4 get into different grill options --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Remember being in school --

6 MS. BARHYDT: I'm picturing that all --

7 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. That -- there you go.

9 MR. JOHNSON: It's not plastic. Let's put it

10 that way.

11 MR. SACHS: If it's not noisy, it's not water

12 source.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, if it's noisy it's a unit

15 ventilator but --

16 MR. EISNER: We have a comment from Wes.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Go ahead, Wes.

18 MR. WOSTAL: I was just wanting you guys to

19 turn me on so I could comment during this part of it.

20 But I don't have anything to say, to talk about

21 regarding the grill options. But I do agree there are

22 console options with different grills. I would agree
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1 with that. I just wanted to be turned on for this

2 section so I could just bust in when I wanted to.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So we talked about the --

4 MR. WOSTAL: You guys sound like a pretty

5 jovial group there, so --

6 MR. JOHNSON: We have to be.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So we talked about some of the

8 grill options on the external units. What is the

9 impact of having a grill on the internal, inside?

10 MR. JOHNSON: What's the impact of a special

11 grill?

12 MS. BARHYDT: Um-hum.

13 MR. JOHNSON: According to this, it's zero to

14 three percent on the unit efficiency.

15 MS. JAKOBS: So more pressure drop --

16 MS. BARHYDT: More pressure drop --

17 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, more -- yeah. That makes

18 sense, more pressure drop.

19 MR. WOSTAL: From the air side.

20 MR. SACHS: I guess -- this is Harvey. My

21 concern would be that we would take as our basic model

22 one with a walk-through grill with zero pressure drop
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1 and then expect to be waivered or exempted for grills

2 that have a fair amount of pressure drop. And some

3 other features, we've decided that the least efficient

4 would be the unit that we would use as our -- in our

5 basic, basic model. And I wonder if there's some way

6 to within this ISO test that we can get similar

7 assurance that we're not loop-holing with default

8 grills that are very -- or that you can drop coffee

9 cups through. Am I being --

10 MS. BARHYDT: The default is no grill at all.

11 MR. SACHS: No, no. It has to be some sort

12 of --

13 MS. BARHYDT: No?

14 MR. JOHNSON: There has to be a grill on it.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So this isn't just an

16 option. I mean, this isn't just an add-on. Okay.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Just different --

18 MR. WOSTAL: No.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: -- versions of it.

20 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again. I can speak

21 for ClimateMaster, but we have basically a standard

22 grill, and I'd have to check to confirm, but I don't
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1 think we have other options with the standard.

2 Typically, it's done as a special where somebody asks

3 for something that they would, you know, want, you

4 know, different for whatever reason. But I don't think

5 we do those very often at all. It's very, very seldom

6 that I remember us doing special grills.

7 MR. JOHNSON: I would concur with that.

8 MR. SACHS: So what I would assume, Wes, is

9 that your standard grill is one that is inexpensive,

10 looks good and has the minimum impact on efficiency

11 from its pressure drop?

12 MR. WOSTAL: Yeah. I mean, it's an aluminum

13 extruded grill or cast grill that, you know, we order

14 it in, paint it the way we want it, and it's not

15 something that -- it's just basically there to protect

16 the coil from somebody sticking their fingers into the

17 coil and have -- do that and have minimum air -- impact

18 on the airflow.

19 MR. SACHS: And it also --

20 MR. WOSTAL: And also to direct the airflow

21 as well to a certain degree.

22 MR. JOHNSON: Right. It directs the airflow.
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1 MR. SACHS: So alternative grills are special

2 orders, not very common.

3 MR. MARANTAN: Right.

4 MR. WOSTAL: Correct.

5 MR. SACHS: And rare.

6 MR. JOHNSON: Low volume.

7 MR. WOSTAL: Off the top of my head, I can't

8 remember the last time we did a special grill. Now,

9 special paint, that happens all the time, but --

10 MR. SACHS: So --

11 MR. WOSTAL: -- on a console.

12 MR. SACHS: -- if we exempt you or is there

13 any business reason you want to start putting a lot of

14 high- pressure-drop grills on?

15 MR. JOHNSON: No. Or more expensive ones,

16 no.

17 MR. SACHS: Hardware stores got screening

18 with pretty good pressure drop and real low cost.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Architects don't like that.

20 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. Our customers won't

21 accept that.

22 MR. SACHS: Laura --
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1 MR. WOSTAL: This unit is an exposed unit.

2 It sits out in -- typically in hallways or entryways,

3 and the customer's expecting an appliance-grade type

4 product here.

5 MR. SACHS: Prosecution rests.

6 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So we're good with

7 grill options. And let's see, the next one is copper -

8 - sorry, compressor speed control. The definition is

9 reducing compressor speed at part load allows exact

10 matching of unit capacity to building load. Benefits

11 are better comfort control, no over cooling, reduced

12 compressor cycling, better part-load compressor EER and

13 quieter operation.

14 MR. SACHS: Is this a special meaning that's

15 different from VF, from variable frequency?

16 MR. STEM: I think they're talking about the

17 different control algorithm driving the different -- is

18 that what you meant by that?

19 MR. HUNT: There's a retrofit kit. Marshall

20 Hunt, PGD.

21 MR. JOHNSON: This is a variable frequency

22 compressor.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Variable speed compressor or

2 stepped --

3 MR. JOHNSON: Variable speed compressor or a

4 VFD compressor.

5 MR. SACHS: All right. If I --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Or multiple step with a --

7 MR. JOHNSON: Oh, yeah.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: -- annual current magnet.

9 MR. SACHS: If I cut compressor speed, the --

10 we've been told that motor curves drop off. On the

11 other hand, I got more heat exchange area effectively.

12 So how does it all wash out? Seems to me that the

13 variable speed stuff is maintaining very good part-load

14 efficiency.

15 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. This is more of a part16 load efficiency issue. So --

17 MR. FLY: And on the DC motors, they don't

18 drop off that much on the -- but there's all kinds of -

19 - like I said this stuff is all really up in the air

20 right now. Lots of different things going on.

21 MR. SACHS: So the immediate issue is --

22 MR. WOSTAL: There's not -- this is Wes
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1 again. There's not really even within HRI, and Karim,

2 you might jump in here. But you know, right now we

3 don't really have -- we haven't fully developed a

4 standard for this yet. You know, we're -- right now

5 within HRI, we have the -- I guess we're set up for a

6 full load and a part load or two capacity and variable

7 speed. You know, we had a meeting about a year -- the

8 engineering committee about a year to a year and a half

9 ago, and I want to say we decided that we would allow

10 three to four speeds, but that hasn't been finalized.

11 Somebody said well, you know, this is still very up in

12 the air and that's correct. There's not very many

13 companies, maybe three or four, that even have products

14 that are variable speed at this point.

15 MR. AMRANE: May be just a test procedure --

16 MR. MARANTAN: Test procedure issue.

17 MR. AMRANE: Issue.

18 MR. SACHS: Yeah.

19 MR. MARANTAN: Okay.

20 MR. WHITWELL: This is a part load. I mean,

21 it should --

22 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, maybe something regulated
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1 by the DOE --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Yes.

3 MR. WHITWELL: It could really have an impact

4 at full load.

5 MR. AMRANE: Right.

6 MR. SACHS: Coolers --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I think what they're

8 trying to say there in -- whoever wrote this is that

9 the effect at full load is if you optimize a design

10 around part load you probably are not picking a

11 compressor that is optimized around a full load.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: So it's you're always kind of

14 balancing the two. So you might have not the most

15 optimized compressor for the full-load test, but you've

16 now optimized it around the part-load maps, so that's,

17 you know, that's what's up here. I --

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. But --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: -- I don't know. I mean, I,

20 you know, I think that that's kind --

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I mean, at least for

22 our products you still design it to hit the required
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1 efficiency at full load.

2 MR. AMRANE: Efficiency, yeah.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

4 MR. WHITWELL: And then you take the

5 additional benefit at part load.

6 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.

7 MR. WOSTAL: I would agree with that.

8 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.

9 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. So for this one, it

10 looks like we'll need to address this in the test

11 procedure.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Not for, not -- well, I don't

13 know what is --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: That's an ISM test procedure.

15 MR. WHITWELL: -- what is the DOE coverage on

16 this? Is it full-load efficiency?

17 MR. AMRANE: I mean, DOE doesn't have that

18 today --

19 MR. WHITWELL: So you don't need --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Currently, so current standard

21 for full load?

22 MS. TUCKER: So is this relevant for full
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1 load, I mean for the list?

2 MR. WHITWELL: I don't think it should be --

3 I mean at full load, it should not --

4 MR. AMRANE: Should not penalize --

5 MR. WHITWELL: -- should not be impacted,

6 right. You need to include the impact. You need to

7 design with the variable speed compressor to hit the

8 whatever the efficiency requirement is.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So if I'm understanding what

10 you're saying, this should not be an exclusion. We

11 should be able to test these and --

12 MR. WHITWELL: I don't believe it should be

13 an exclusion.

14 MS. BARHYDT: -- they should be able to meet

15 the standard?

16 MR. WHITWELL: I don't believe it should be

17 an exclusion.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

19 MR. WHITWELL: But I'm not in the water

20 source heat pump business but --

21 MR. SACHS: Robert, I've always been --

22 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again, and I don't
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1 know who that was, but I would agree with that that

2 this is not -- should not be excluded.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm one of the manufacturers

4 with the variable speed and water source, and I don't

5 think it should be exempted.

6 MR. WOSTAL: You don't think it should be

7 exempted?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: No. I don't think it should be

9 exempted.

10 MR. JOHNSON: This -- I'm not sure this was

11 intended --

12 MR. WOSTAL: I agree. I agree with that.

13 MR. JOHNSON: And I'm not sure this was

14 intended just for water source. I think he purposely

15 wrote this.

16 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Um-hum.

17 MR. JOHNSON: He's a packaged unitary guy so

18 --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

20 MR. MARANTAN: Sounds like it was for all of

21 the --

22 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. It's for all of them so
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1 --

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

3 MR. JOHNSON: -- okay.

4 MR. MARANTAN: And just to clarify what we're

5 trying to do in the table, we're going to keep it up

6 there because we're interested in the definition.

7 MR. JOHNSON: Right.

8 MR. MARANTAN: Okay. Moving on, the next

9 five look like they repeat --

10 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. These got repeated.

11 These are --

12 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah.

13 MR. JOHNSON: We're done with the list as far

14 as --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, wonderful.

16 MR. JOHNSON: -- unless you want -- somebody

17 has to --

18 MR. MARANTAN: We got the last 5 from 30 to

19 34.

20 MR. AMRANE: But there's one more thing.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

22 MR. AMRANE: On single-packaged vertical
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1 units, the definition --

2 MS. BARHYDT: Definition.

3 MR. MARANTAN: Yeah.

4 MR. AMRANE: And I think the consensus from

5 the manufacturers is to try to use definition similar

6 to what was developed for the other packaged product.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

8 MR. AMRANE: And maybe adjust a little bit

9 the wording with respect to cooling capacity. So if

10 you can bring that definition. That's the original

11 definition?

12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So you want to copy the

13 --

14 MR. AMRANE: To there. So we don't want

15 that. We want the same definition as the, as the --

16 that we developed for the --

17 MS. BARHYDT: PTACs?

18 MR. AMRANE: Not PTACs, the large unitary --

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

20 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes again. Have we

21 already gone over the definition of a basic model for

22 water source heat pump?
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1 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

2 MR. AMRANE: I think we're done with water

3 source heat pump.

4 MR. WOSTAL: That must have been when I was

5 out. If we could, could we go back to that? I think I

6 was out of the office when that was discussed. Sorry.

7 MS. BARHYDT: You can see the screen?

8 MR. MARANTAN: It's on the screen now.

9 MR. WOSTAL: Was there any -- were there any

10 comments or issues with that?

11 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. You see the finished

12 product. There was a bit of discussion, yeah.

13 MR. SACHS: There was a lot of violent

14 agreement.

15 MR. WOSTAL: Hey, pops, now wait a minute.

16 We're all part of the industry, but come on.

17 MR. SACHS: Van would be proud of you.

18 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. So you just put up at the

19 top what was taken out?

20 MS. TUCKER: That was just the heading, the

21 title there, the heading we had put on the basic model

22 definition.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: The basic model definition.

2 MR. WOSTAL: I can't understand or hear.

3 MS. BARHYDT: The basic model definition is

4 in the box. It's the white, the white area of the

5 slide. The basic model means that's the definition.

6 Corey just added a heading up at the top to explain

7 that this was the basic model definition for water

8 source heat pumps.

9 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. So what's up at the top

10 where it says, "Water source heat pumps capable of

11 cooling only" --

12 MR. STANONIK: It's a title.

13 MR. WOSTAL: -- "heating only and cooling and

14 heating"?

15 MR. STANONIK: It's a title.

16 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Okay. So the definition

17 here, was there any -- I guess everybody was okay with

18 that?

19 MS. BARHYDT: I think there were a few tweaks

20 from what we started with, but this is what everybody

21 seemed to be okay with.

22 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Because I remember the --
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1 Karim had sent me the original definition that this

2 group had put together, and I made some changes, or I

3 submitted some changes as, you know, my feelings. And

4 it looks like, it looks like most everything that I

5 submitted is here so I just -- if that's -- if

6 everybody's in agreement I'm good with that.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

8 MR. WOSTAL: All right. One other thing I

9 wanted to add was there was an option that I had added,

10 and that was condenser water reheat. I don't know if

11 you guys need a definition for that or --

12 MR. MARANTAN: Let's do, yeah.

13 MR. JOHNSON: Never got it.

14 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Condenser water reheat is

15 a -- it's basically a form of hot gas reheat, except

16 instead of, instead of using refrigerant to reheat the

17 air in cooling mode, we use condenser water that is

18 heated in our system, and we pump that water through

19 the coil that sits downstream of the, of the evaporator

20 coil just like a reheat coil would. So essentially, we

21 were using hot water off of the condenser in place of

22 hot gas off of the compressor.
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1 I guess what I could do is I could put

2 together a more well thought out definition and send

3 that to Karim for the next meeting.

4 MS. BARHYDT: That's fine.

5 MR. WOSTAL: If you guys would like that.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, please.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: That would be good.

8 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

9 MR. WHITWELL: And one other question. This

10 is Bob Whitwell from Carrier. The economizers here

11 with the water source, those would be water economizers

12 as opposed to air economizer?

13 MR. WOSTAL: Typically, yes. The ones that I

14 am familiar with are water economizers where when the

15 water that enters -- that's entering the water coil is

16 -- reaches a temperature, you know, say 50 to 60

17 degrees, you turn off the compressor, and you just pump

18 water through the coil and run the fan.

19 MR. FLY: But that coil doesn't pose a

20 pressure drop?

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. It's -- the coil would

22 be in series with the evaporator coil. So there's a
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1 pressure drop on the indoor air side.

2 MR. WOSTAL: Yes. There would be a pressure

3 drop on the indoor air side, but you also get, you

4 know, the benefit of not running the compressor.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Correct.

6 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Right. I only mention it

8 because it's the same as what we talked about on the

9 air economizer, but the definition would be different.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Different.

11 MR. AMRANE: Different. Yeah.

12 MR. WHITWELL: But I believe it should be

13 treated the same way.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Are there any other items on

15 the list that need clarification for water source?

16 MR. JOHNSON: None we can think of right now.

17 MR. WOSTAL: Let's change that definition on

18 condenser water -- well, I'll give you guys a new

19 definition. I was going to say instead of a form of

20 hot gas, I would call it an alternative to hot gas

21 maybe.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Ready to move on to the
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1 --

2 MR. AMRANE: SPV?

3 MS. BARHYDT: -- SPV?

4 MR. AMRANE: Um-hum. That's the original --

5 MS. BARHYDT: Copy the --

6 MS. TUCKER: So you want the --

7 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Just replace this with

8 the, with the other one.

9 MS. TUCKER: Do you want the entire list of -

10 -

11 MR. AMRANE: The entire list.

12 MS. TUCKER: Okay.

13 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. So it's going to be

14 very similar.

15 MS. TUCKER: Going to take that whole slide.

16 MR. WOSTAL: I would have Sean but Sean might

17 not be there.

18 MR. AMRANE: The only thing that might be a

19 little bit different here is with respect to the common

20 nominal cooling capacity. I think those manufacturers

21 typically the way they would like to define the basic

22 model would be the capacity range. And usually in our
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1 program, we use 1500 BTUs. That's what we use in our

2 program. That's what they would like to add to this

3 definition.

4 MS. TUCKER: So other than common nominal,

5 what, the common --

6 MR. AMRANE: This has to be common, the --

7 MS. TUCKER: -- capacity; right?

8 MR. AMRANE: -- capacity range of, you know,

9 so we can 1500 BTUs if you want to be specific or you

10 want to leave it open.

11 MR. FLY: Karim, are these always water

12 cooled?

13 MR. AMRANE: They are not water cooled.

14 MR. FLY: They're not water --

15 MR. AMRANE: I mean, they are mostly air

16 cooled. Yeah. It's air to air, all of these BTUs, I

17 mean, they're vertical.

18 MS. BARHYDT: I think that's what you mean.

19 MR. AMRANE: It's within each other, I mean

20 like you would define basic model with the 1500 --

21 MR. EISNER: Okay. And these are generally

22 through --
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1 MR. MARANTAN: PTACs.

2 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. PTACs, we had similar

3 language. We had --

4 MR. MARANTAN: Can we just borrow the

5 language there?

6 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, if you can do that, you

7 can, yes, within 300 BTUs, yeah.

8 MR. AMRANE: That's it. That's the only

9 change. As far as the options, I mean they feel that

10 they can have the same kind of options in their

11 products. So --

12 MR. DOPPEL: Well, the third one down is

13 none.

14 MR. AMRANE: No. They just want you to go --

15 MR. SACHS: I don't understand the

16 application of condenser fan motor options for ducting

17 on --

18 MR. AMRANE: They reviewed the list.

19 MR. DOPPEL: They did?

20 MR. AMRANE: They reviewed the list, and they

21 agree with the list. That's why --

22 MR. DOPPEL: Okay.
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1 MR. AMRANE: -- they would like to keep the

2 list.

3 MR. SACHS: For the vertical units, I just

4 would like an example of the application where I've got

5 ducting option to a condenser, condenser pane.

6 MR. WHITWELL: No. I mean, we -- I don't

7 consider --

8 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. That will not apply.

9 MR. WHITWELL: -- ours really this type of

10 unit.

11 MR. SACHS: So that's a no? Condenser pane -

12 -

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, through the wall to --

17 MR. AMRANE: I mean fine. I mean, I'm not

18 objecting at this point in time. But I'll have to get

19 those folks a bit more engaged, maybe at the next

20 meeting or so. I mean, we can remove it from that.

21 We'll put a question mark or whatever so that we know -

22 -
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1 MR. SACHS: Sure. Well, let me try a

2 different approach.

3 MR. AMRANE: Right.

4 MR. SACHS: My sense of these is that the

5 barred units --

6 MR. AMRANE: That's correct.

7 MR. SACHS: -- are bolted on a classroom --

8 MR. AMRANE: That is true. That's what they

9 are. I mean, yeah, yeah.

10 MR. SACHS: All right. So --

11 MR. DOPPEL: So there shouldn't be any

12 ducting?

13 MR. SACHS: There shouldn't be any ducting.

14 There shouldn't be any high-static indoor blowers

15 because these typically take return air in at the

16 bottom and blow it out the top.

17 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

18 MR. SACHS: So we ought to be able to

19 eliminate that.

20 MR. DOPPEL: That's why I'm saying

21 economizer, right? It's --

22 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: -- I don't --

2 MR. SACHS: I don't know where I'd put it.

3

4 All right. What about barometric relief

5 powered return air. That doesn't sound like --

6 MR. DOPPEL: Well, if they have -- if Bart

7 has economizer then they could have that.

8 MR. SACHS: Okay.

9 MR. DOPPEL: Because you got air coming in.

10 You got to have something going out.

11 MR. SACHS: Sound traps.

12 MR. AMRANE: Oh, they do, I believe. I don't

13 know.

14 MR. SACHS: Where will you put the sound trap

15 in the box?

16 MR. AMRANE: But they are used in school

17 application quite a bit, too, so that's subject to the

18 same kind of --

19 MR. SACHS: Right. And they have to be

20 designed for that integrally to get it all in the box.

21 MR. DOPPEL: The sound trap would be the on

22 and off switch.
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1 MR. SACHS: Wait a minute. There's that

2 ventilation requirement.

3 MR. FLY: And the off position is real

4 efficient.

5 MR. SACHS: No, it is not.

6 MR. FLY: Maybe a zero efficient.

7 MR. SACHS: So I would -- I don't think we

8 have to go through these one at a time now. But I

9 think it's --

10 MR. AMRANE: I mean, we can put the question

11 mark, and then revisit this, you know, at the next

12 meeting if you want to.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Have them look at --

14 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. Have them go and make

15 sure that we can justify or what else you have, Harvey?

16 Let's put them -- let's make sure that we --

17 MR. SACHS: Well, I think the question is for

18 the entire list whether these are in the market, or

19 people are thinking about them, so we have it

20 integration friendly. It's always seemed to me that

21 looking at these things that the hail guards were sort

22 of inherent in them because they're exterior cabinets
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1 and people can reach for the baseball bat. So I ask

2 think asking them which ones need to be left to

3 protective innovation capability (inaudible).

4 MR. AMRANE: All right. Well, we'll get

5 back, then.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. I'm just guessing.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

8 MR. MARANTAN: Other basic model definitions?

9 MR. AMRANE: That's it. That's it.

10 MR. MARANTAN: That's it?

11 MS. TUCKER: They're going to correct --

12 MR. AMRANE: Well, now there are a few that

13 you see to be determined.

14 MS. TUCKER: Yeah. Like cracks.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So --

16 MR. AMRANE: Like -- yeah. So those --

17 MS. BARHYDT: -- we don't have proposals for

18 those.

19 MR. AMRANE: Now I'm working with the

20 computer Datacom folks to double up on; okay?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

22 MR. AMRANE: Because we started product
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1 section with AHRI, so hopefully by their next meeting -

2 -

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

4 MR. AMRANE: -- I'll get you a definition for

5 that. Huh?

6 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah. Commercial pharmacies --

7 MR. AMRANE: Oh, yes.

8 MS. TUCKER: Would either of you be

9 interested in commercial furnaces?

10 MR. SACHS: Commercial furnaces are easy.

11 MS. JAKOBS: Commercial furnaces are easy.

12 MR. STANONIK: Well, yeah. Yeah. If you

13 just go back into commercial furnaces, yeah.

14 MR. SACHS: Anything Frank wants.

15 MS. JAKOBS: Put gas in, burn it.

16 MR. STANONIK: It was like the first slide, I

17 think.

18 MS. JAKOBS: Put gas in, burn it, get some

19 heat.

20 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. There it is.

21 Just a couple things. First one is at the

22 very end it says "to affect energy consumption." I
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1 think it should be "energy efficiency." That's

2 consistent with what we've done for the water coolers

3 and boilers. And in the case for commercial furnace,

4 just to give you an example, at least by DOE

5 regulations you can still put a pilot on your

6 commercial furnace.

7 MS. JAKOBS: Not in Canada.

8 MR. STANONIK: We're not in Canada. We're in

9 the United States.

10 MR. AMRANE: We're in the U.S.

11 MR. STANONIK: And that wouldn't affect

12 thermal efficiency at all. You don't want to -- you

13 would -- that should be the same basic models. So

14 anyhow, so the efficiency. And then the question comes

15 up whether you -- whether we really need to say that

16 have identical readings with thermal efficiency or not.

17 You can just -- looking at some of the other

18 definitions, I mean, I don't -- I believe that you

19 don't need to say that. But you know, that's --

20 MS. JAKOBS: You didn't want to say ratings,

21 did you?

22 MR. AMRANE: No.
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1 MR. STANONIK: Well, somebody had suggested

2 it but you would have been -- could say they have the

3 same or essentially the same input ratings in terms of

4 defining a basic model. I mean --

5 MS. BARHYDT: But I mean, if you want to take

6 it out, we can take it out.

7 MR. STANONIK: Well, I kind of defer it a

8 little bit to the people who actually make this stuff.

9 If we said --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: They are grouped by the same, I

11 mean they are grouped by the same input; right?

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

13 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. So we could say that

14 have essentially identical input ratings.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Frank, I like the

16 definition that you emailed around as a proposal.

17 MR. STANONIK: Okay. Well, that's what I was

18 working off of. So to say that has essentially

19 identical input ratings and the same primary resource,

20 blah, blah, blah. The rest stays the same.

21 MR. SACHS: All right, this is going to fall

22 on deaf ears, but I'm going to say it anyhow.
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1 Customers don't care near as much about input ratings

2 as output ratings. And you guys have been backwards

3 for decades. And I would be a whole lot happier to see

4 us beginning the transition by using the term output

5 ratings.

6 MR. STANONIK: The reason these are

7 essentially identical --

8 MR. WHITWELL: Then we've got to retrain

9 everybody.

10 MR. STANONIK: -- is that within the gas

11 business, you could have a model that's rated on LP and

12 natural. They are the same model. Your LP might have

13 a little different input than that. And most of the

14 test procedures allow, I don't know about commercials

15 furnaces, but they allow variance up to ten percent.

16 MR. SACHS: As I said, it would fall on deaf

17 ears, but --

18 MR. STANONIK: I didn't want you to be wrong.

19 MR. SACHS: That's the first time you've ever

20 said that.

21 MR. STANONIK: It's just to capture the

22 LP/natural gas situation.
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1 MS. JAKOBS: Essentially identical.

2 MR. STANONIK: Right. Input ratings. And

3 then you can delete "for thermal efficiency."

4 MS. JAKOBS: Is that the same as having the

5 same nominal input rating?

6 MR. STANONIK: We could probably do that,

7 too, but --

8 MS. JAKOBS: "Essentially identical," that's

9 kind of like --

10 MR. SACHS: A little bit pregnant.

11 MS. TUCKER: I mean, you're pulling your

12 input, right, so you'd have to have a nominal input for

13 the group.

14 MR. STANONIK: Right. Okay.

15 MS. TUCKER: We can say the same nominal;

16 would that be better?

17 MS. JAKOBS: Well, "identical" may mean

18 something specific. And "essentially" means it's not

19 specific, so --

20 MR. STANONIK: Well, so if you want to say

21 "that have the same nominal input ratings," that's

22 certainly less oxymoron, I guess.
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1 MR. AMRANE: You have to think of the air

2 conditioning unit. Yes, I'm sorry; I don't know what's

3 going on with this thermostat. It resets to high

4 temperature every time.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: The static's too high.

6 MR. AMRANE: Who made this equipment, anyhow?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, does that take care of

8 it?

9 MR. STANONIK: Yeah.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else?

11 MR. STANONIK: No, that's good.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

13 MS. JAKOBS: Where is VRF? Where'd he go?

14 MR. DOPPEL: Grand entrance. So if you go

15 back to the definition for the large commercial package

16 air conditioning systems.

17 MS. TUCKER: Yeah, this one?

18 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. So that should also

19 include large commercial split systems.

20 MS. TUCKER: Yes. So, large?

21 MR. AMRANE: Also they're cold by the

22 regulation.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: Right. So VRF has always been

2 included under that.

3 MS. TUCKER: Okay.

4 MR. DOPPEL: And, you know, I don't think

5 there's anything additional. Because we have the test

6 combination definition for VRF. So I think that --

7 MS. TUCKER: Okay. So --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: But, Paul, you're saying that

9 that's for 65,000 to 760 VRF.

10 MR. DOPPEL: Right.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

12 MS. TUCKER: Just no small.

13 MR. DOPPEL: Huh?

14 MS. TUCKER: Just no small.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Just no small.

16 MR. DOPPEL: Right, no small.

17 MR. AMRANE: It's just 65 and above.

18 MR. DOPPEL: 65 and above.

19 MR. FLY: In a below 65 three-phase, it's

20 still commercial to DOE's definition.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, he'd have a different

22 definition for less than 65.
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1 MR. FLY: It'll be all right.

2 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

3 MR. WHITWELL: We don't have to rate for

4 every combination. So maybe we're better off with the

5 ASHRAE definition.

6 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, why don't we -- if you

7 just copied that, let's go with the different page.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: So now we've got to take it

9 out.

10 MR. DOPPEL: Because that will get confusing

11 with the less than 65.

12 MS. TUCKER: So we're still talking about the

13 65, just greater than 65; right?

14 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. And then there's another

15 change that we need to make with coils.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe we just explain the

17 issue and I think somehow we've got to work in the

18 (inaudible) combination here; right.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Combination?

20 MR. DOPPEL: Well, we've got to look at the

21 definition of VON.

22 MR. WHITWELL: I think it's the same as -- I
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1 think it's the same.

2 MR. DOPPEL: No, as far as what is considered

3 basic model test.

4 MR. WHITWELL: The issue we're struggling

5 with here is all the various indoor unit types, right.

6 So the comparable evaporator coil is, you know, if you

7 look at the test procedure describes --

8 MR. DOPPEL: We use different language.

9 MR. WHITWELL: -- what the indoor units

10 should be for how to identify the indoor units for the

11 testing.

12 MR. DOPPEL: I don't have the OM handy.

13 MR. WHITWELL: I can get it.

14 MS. BARHYDT: It's nice with the door open.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Where'd he go?

16 MS. BARHYDT: So other than the BRF basic

17 model definition, are there any other basic model

18 definitions outstanding?

19 MR. AMRANE: If I may ask, is Wes around on

20 the phone? You want to speak up about SPVUs? Wes?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Is Wes in a meeting?

22 MR. AMRANE: He's on mute?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: On mute.

2 MR. AMRANE: On mute, okay. I don't know; I

3 know he wanted to make a comment.

4 MR. DOPPEL: Oh, yeah, those accessories.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Before you look at the

6 accessories --

7 MR. WOSTAL: Good morning.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, almost none of those

9 accessories apply.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Almost or none?

11 MR. DOPPEL: None.

12 MS. JAKOBS: Not even a UV lamp?

13 MR. DOPPEL: UV lamp -- well, we don't ship

14 them. Are there any units? None that I can see.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Coated coils, potentially?

17 MR. DOPPEL: Coated coils would be the only -

18 -

19 MR. WHITWELL: These are very simple

20 products; right, Paul?

21 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: These here are for the test
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1 simple setup.

2 MR. STEM: Absolutely. Four days.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Most expensive per ton; right?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

5 MR. STEM: Huh?

6 MR. WHITWELL: Most expensive per ton.

7 MR. STEM: If you take out the line table in

8 there, we'll be in good shape.

9 MR. DOPPEL: Okay, what we have is same or

10 comparable compressors and same cooling capacity.

11 MR. WHITWELL: We can take gas out of the --

12 we can take out maybe same primary energy source.

13 MR. DOPPEL: You can take the coils out.

14 MS. TUCKER: Okay. What about an air

15 removal?

16 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

17 MS. TUCKER: Okay. And the energy source?

18 MR. WHITWELL: We don't have gas; I mean,

19 there would be no gas.

20 MR. STEM: No, you'd leave it in. You need

21 to leave gas in.

22 MR. WHITWELL: You need to leave gas in?
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1 MR. AMRANE: Just it doesn't hurt.

2 MS. TUCKER: It exists in the world.

3 MR. WHITWELL: All right. Okay, for the

4 future.

5 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, you never know.

6 MR. DOPPEL: And that last sentence you can

7 almost leave out.

8 MS. TUCKER: Yeah. No, I'm going to

9 incorporate that as well. I just wanted you to review

10 part of it. Throw coated coils in up there.

11 MR. DOPPEL: Well, I'd guess you'd leave it

12 there, because we do have coated coils.

13 MS. TUCKER: Yeah, I'll just make a sentence

14 instead of a list.

15 MR. DOPPEL: Even though it's very small.

16 And for old eyes, you can hardly read the coated coils.

17 Yeah, so leave that in there.

18 MR. SACHS: Father, should I offer you my

19 seat?

20 MR. DOPPEL: Thank you.

21 MR. WHITWELL: And, Paul, I think we've got

22 to get in here the ducted versus non-ducted.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: That's covered in the basic, in

2 the tested combination.

3 MR. WHITWELL: So then what would you

4 certify?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, you certify what?

6 MR. DOPPEL: And just maybe add a sentence

7 before a basic model does not include, just a sentence

8 that says, you know, that basic models are also

9 determined according to the tested combination in

10 quotes. Definition. Just the combination, end quote,

11 definition.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. Then how does somebody

13 who's not in AHRI remember that?

14 MR. DOPPEL: Oh, that's a DOE. Test

15 combination is a DOE.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: It is?

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Yes.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, because you've got

20 ducted; for a given output, you've got to rate it

21 ducted.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, yeah, that's right. Those
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1 cables do. Yeah, that's right. I forgot about that.

2 All good?

3 MR. DOPPEL: Well, one other, because water

4 source is also included. After nominal cooling

5 capacity add the same heat rejection medium, air or

6 water. So you can't have -- a basic model couldn't be

7 a water sourcing pump and a air to air.

8 MS. BARHYDT: You can't span the two.

9 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. We actually tried to

10 include less than 65,000 in with that. But DOE didn't

11 pick them up. So there are what are considered VRF

12 systems, less than 65,000, but are single phase, and

13 therefore covered by 210/240. They are orphans. They

14 need --

15 MR. WHITWELL: They're not orphans; they're

16 covered under --

17 MS. JAKOBS: They're covered.

18 MS. BARHYDT: They're in a foster home.

19 MR. DOPPEL: Well, but they're orphans from

20 the VRF. They're in a foster home. They're in a

21 foster home, thank you.

22 MR. WHITWELL: They're in that same category.
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1 MS. JAKOBS: They're pining to come home.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so are there any other

3 basic model definitions that we haven't at least

4 started on?

5 MR. AMRANE: As I said, for the data I'll

6 bring something for the next meeting.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Right, okay.

8 MS. DANE: We were going to go back to

9 commercial refrigeration.

10 MS. BARHYDT: We can do that.

11 MS. DANE: I think there was some concern --

12 I know the gentleman from Southland Cabinets had some

13 questions about this. And I've been asked to bring up

14 some points of clarification regarding the addition of

15 defining primary energy source between plug and

16 connection point.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Primary energy source is going

18 to be electrical gas. I mean, it's the type of energy.

19 It's not --

20 MR. SHEBIK: I don't think you need to break

21 into how you get the energy to the case. I saw your

22 email.
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1 MS. DANE: I'm addressing an email I got.

2 MS. BARHYDT: What was the question, were

3 they wondering if they were forced to separate this?

4 MS. DANE: Joe Sanders is on the line, maybe

5 he can speak to his --

6 MS. BARHYDT: Can you unmute Joe Sanders?

7 He's not on the line.

8 MS. DANE: Oh, he's not on the call. Oh,

9 wow. Okay. He had gone through yesterday when the per

10 total display area refrigerated volume was added and

11 pointed out where it already appeared in the CFR. And

12 we had written back that before we had a much more what

13 we felt was a broader.

14 MS. BARHYDT: So that we said we were going

15 to have to come back and revisit.

16 MS. DANE: Yes.

17 MS. BARHYDT: And that actually is not going

18 to be able to be included in a basic model.

19 MS. DANE: Okay. And that is because?

20 MS. BARHYDT: It's because a basic model, the

21 concept of a basic model is this is a representation

22 that's based on testing. I mean, you can an AEDM to
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1 come up with the numbers for other basic models, but

2 the fundamental number has to come from testing. And

3 the test procedure is not designed in a way that would

4 allow you to span the different sizes of cases the way

5 it was discussed yesterday. And so the only way to do

6 that is through an AEDM. And you can't have --

7 conceptually the number should be coming out of the

8 test procedure for the basic model.

9 MS. DANE: So the description somewhere the

10 cross between yesterday's and today's version would

11 probably work fine with us. I know that I think, to

12 address his point, the question on the ore hydraulics

13 was just a copy, an error of copying over and taking

14 everything else out. So if we're not going to put total

15 display area, which I understand is limiting to one

16 type of cabinet.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

18 MS. DANE: I'm okay with that. Were we also

19 going to talk about basic model features?

20 MR. SACHS: Before we move off that, am I

21 correct in interpreting this as saying that the

22 identical box with and without a cover, whether it's a
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1 night cover or an operable one, would not be allowed to

2 be part of the same basic model?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Under the current framework,

4 no. And I don't know enough about the test procedure to

5 know the answer as to whether the test procedure has an

6 impact on that. I'm guessing it does.

7 MR. AMRANE: It does.

8 MR. HON: There is a change coming --

9 MR. AMRANE: There is a change coming.

10 MR. SACHS: When does it come out, Charlie?

11 MR. HON: The change is a DOE change.

12 MR. AMRANE: Right.

13 MS. BARHYDT: We have an open rulemaking on

14 this subject.

15 MR. HON: There's been a rulemaking on that

16 and it changes in 2015. Which allow the night curtain

17 to be closed for six hours.

18 MR. AMRANE: Right. That will impact energy

19 consumption.

20 MR. SACHS: Well, it impacts the energy

21 consumption. But the question is whether the open and

22 the night curtain models that were otherwise identical
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1 could be part of the same basic model.

2 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, right now, you do not test

3 for the night curtain right now.

4 MR. SACHS: Because they would not have the

5 same functional characteristics that affect energy

6 consumption. One has a night cover and the other does

7 not.

8 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, it's just like a sensor, a

9 light sensor running. There's no test procedure.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, we would allow them to

11 group those, as long as they rate it as the less

12 efficient of the two. And I don't know why somebody

13 with a night curtain would want to not claim that

14 efficiency. But we would allow them to group them.

15 MR. SACHS: Hey, if they're happy, I'm happy.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

17 MR. SACHS: On this.

18 MS. DANE: You know, some of the other

19 technology, not that we would have all the things that

20 HVAC would have, but if some of the like condensation

21 pan heater and things like that were an optional, would

22 we be able to apply some of the same exemptions they
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1 have to our product line?

2 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure. If you can come

3 up with a list like they did, I think that would be

4 helpful. So we have a better idea of what you were

5 thinking off. Because I know that in the CRE test

6 procedure we tried to address some of those variables.

7 And so to the extent that they are captured by the test

8 procedure, they would not be able to be grouped, or

9 rather excluded. Because the test procedure is

10 designed to capture that information.

11 MR. SHEBIK: I'm sorry; I need to cut out

12 pretty quick here. But going back to what Harvey was

13 saying, if you choose to sell a case with a night

14 curtain on it, or a dimming switch for your lights, a

15 motion sensor or something, since there's no current

16 ASHRAE test method for that is there, Charlie?

17 MR. HON: ASHRAE has a change in their test

18 method coming in the next revision, which should be out

19 before the end of the year. Which will allow up to

20 eight-hour close. But the problem is, is that under

21 interpretation, which I received from the DOE, if you

22 have a night curtain in place you cannot turn the
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1 lights off, unless by chance there's a built in

2 integrated switch.

3 MR. SHEBIK: It can't be a manual switch?

4 MR. HON: So when you close the night curtain

5 it automatically turns the lights off. That's always a

6 debatable point, which is rather fictitious. If you're

7 going to close a night curtain, it's just while you're

8 there you might as well flip the switch. But that's

9 not what we've been told we've been allowed to do. So

10 we're getting no exemptions it sounds like.

11 MR. BAUMAN: If we don't ask for them.

12 MR. HON: Well --

13 MR. BAUMAN: I mean, you're saying we could

14 come up with a list like they did for --

15 MS. BARHYDT: You could give us a list and we

16 can take a look at it.

17 MR. HON: Yeah, unfortunately, I've heard

18 most of the answers already.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

20 MR. SHEBIK: So if we chose to use those

21 options, could you claim the energy efficiency?

22 MS. BARHYDT: So to the extent that the test
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1 procedure allows you to claim the efficiency, and you

2 have a method to actually test it to know what that

3 number is. It's probably better to talk about this in

4 terms of specific provisions. But generally speaking,

5 if you could test two versions and the test procedure

6 will capture the difference between the two versions,

7 you could group them together and rate them at the more

8 consumptive, or you could separate them and you could

9 claim them as two different basic models with the

10 higher efficiency.

11 MR. SHEBIK: And I don't know if the

12 gentleman, the people from Zero Zone are on the phone,

13 Bruce, if he's on the phone still, but he had some

14 concerns at looking at using equipment classifications

15 still as your basic models.

16 MS. BARHYDT: So the department typically has

17 taken the position that there is no way to make a basic

18 model span across multiple equipment classes. Because

19 the way the equipment classes are set are based on the

20 notion that those designs are so fundamentally

21 different that they actually require different design,

22 that the standards are actually set differently. And
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1 so there's no way to say that they're essentially

2 identical, electable, physical, and functional

3 characteristics, when the Department has, basically as

4 a matter of law, determined that this are physically

5 functionally different in such a way that actually

6 warrants a different standard.

7 MR. SHEBIK: But I'm saying --

8 MS. BARHYDT: So you can't make a basic model

9 span the classes.

10 MR. SHEBIK: No; I'm saying can each

11 equipment class be a basic model group?

12 MS. BARHYDT: That would depend on what they

13 offer within that.

14 MR. SHEBIK: So depending on the manufacturer

15 and what they're offering is they could do that.

16 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, there's no prohibition

17 on it.

18 MR. BAUMAN: But they -- this is Jeff from

19 National -- but they'd all have to have the same energy

20 consumption.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

22 MR. BAUMAN: The basic model has to have the
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1 same energy consumption.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Take your absolute worst case

3 scenario for that.

4 MR. SHEBIK: So what you distribute to

5 commerce would have the same energy consumption. In

6 reality, it may have different energy consumptions, but

7 what you show is going to be --

8 MR. BAUMAN: You're going to rate that, yeah.

9 MS. BARHYDT: You rate everything --

10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff from Nash. You

11 also, when we talk about physical, would have to have

12 the same volume also as a physical characteristic.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

14 MR. BAUMAN: It would have to have the same

15 volume and the same energy consumption.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. I mean, that's why I

17 said it depends on what their offering is.

18 MR. BAUMAN: Right, right.

19 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, you'd have to have a

20 pretty limited offering for refrigerated cases to be

21 able to do that.

22 MR. SHEBIK: I apologize; I do need to run
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1 though, so sorry. I will catch up.

2 MS. BARHYDT: So recognizing that the basic

3 model definitions are not going to be set in stone

4 during this meeting, there's still feedback that I

5 think some of you want to get on some of the product

6 types. We need to go back and we need to look at some

7 of the information you all provided to us.

8 MR. BAUMAN: Laura, excuse me.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

10 MR. BAUMAN: I apologize. Can we jump back?

11 I guess one question I have really on all these is in

12 the preamble are you going to include, because we say

13 terms like essentially identical, that'll be covered in

14 the preamble, as far as what essentially identical

15 means?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

18 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, is it clear to everyone

19 what the Department means by that? Because essentially

20 identical is a way of us saying at the end of the day

21 you're saying that these things are all rated the same.

22 That you are not making claims that they are performing
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1 in a different way.

2 So "essentially identical" is really up to

3 you guys. We're putting in some basically wiggle room

4 for you to decide how you want to group things into

5 your basic models. And the "essentially identical"

6 language has been there forever. We struggled in the

7 first certification rule trying to come up with some

8 other way to say it. We haven't come up with better

9 words. We're open to suggestions, but that's what we

10 mean, is that you are making the decision that I'm

11 going to group these the same, and I'm going to say

12 that they're more or less the same for efficiency

13 purposes, because I'm rating them all the same way.

14 MR. AMRANE: Right. But not to spend too

15 much time on this. But I still have an issue with

16 that, because it means then by definition, by having

17 this definition, that you could have a very large

18 number of basic models. Let's say if you want to

19 distinguish a product and you have let's say one with

20 LEDs, another one with (inaudible), I mean, it's the

21 same case. But then one is not the same energy

22 consumption, so it's a different basic model. And
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1 that, of course, if you have a AEDM, if you support

2 that you can do anything with an AEDM, probably there's

3 no issue here. But if I don't have an AEDM, it means

4 that I will have to test every one of those basic

5 models. And that's where I --

6 MS. BARHYDT: So, Karim, if you don't test

7 it, where did that number come from?

8 MR. AMRANE: Well, you know, you could have -

9 - I don't know, you got some estimates you know the

10 AEDM consumption.

11 MS. BARHYDT: That's what an AEDM is.

12 MR. AMRANE: You're right; that's true. But

13 again, we're talking about an AEDM that has to be

14 within five percent and, you know, some people might --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

16 MR. AMRANE: I don't know, might have some --

17 MR. HON: It's a very difficult situation

18 here, because not only did we have regulations which

19 put us into this category before, but then a few years

20 ago, we got a double testing requirement; every unit

21 had to be tested twice. So not only do we have single

22 testing, we have double testing. And now we're being
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1 chopped down, chopped down and chopped down in the

2 spaces here. Understand that we have a huge amount of

3 test data compared to some things here. But --

4 MR. AMRANE: Your product had been regulated

5 for years, but let's say those display cases are not

6 yet effective. I mean, it's going to be --

7 MR. HON: That's what I'm saying. And that's

8 exactly why I'm saying that. But we do sell remote

9 refrigeration. We do make it and we do test it. So

10 that's what I'm concerned about here is because in the

11 self-contained we had the double requirement. Now

12 we're getting into the other category and it's becoming

13 very difficult, because the configurations will be

14 very, very big as well.

15 MR. AMRANE: I guess for me I don't see the

16 harm how you group it. It's up to you. Even if it's

17 not with the same efficiency, as long as you're

18 responsible for those ratings, as long as, you know, if

19 you are, that if one of those basic models fail, then

20 everything that's in the basic model will have to be

21 rerated.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So from the Department's
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1 perspective there are two ways to get a rating. One is

2 by testing, and one is through AEDM. And those are the

3 only two ways. There's no third, well, I just know.

4 I'm an engineer and I have a lot of expertise. If

5 you're an engineer and you have a lot of expertise, get

6 an AEDM.

7 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes from Climate Master.

8 We -- with water source heat pumps, you know, regarding

9 testing, basically, and I think we've had these

10 discussions in past section meetings, our industry we

11 basically test every product that we have a rating for.

12 We typically don't have -- we do not have an AEDM.

13 We're trying to develop one right now, but it

14 started from scratch a little over two years ago. And

15 we're working with a number of different, some

16 universities from different companies. And it's

17 progressing along at a fast rate. I mean, that's just

18 the fact of the matter. But where I see the burden is

19 not so much in the testing of the products here, but

20 it's in the testing of the products for verification

21 that DOE require. You know, right now testing

22 laboratories such as ETL can't keep up with the amount
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1 of testing that they have, based on the definition of a

2 basic model that AHRI has. And if that definition gets

3 extended and there's more products to be tested, who's

4 going to do all that testing?

5 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure I entirely

6 followed the question.

7 MR. WOSTAL: Well, you're saying that you've

8 got two choices, either test it or use an AEDM.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

10 MR. WOSTAL: Let's say that a company chooses

11 not to use an AEDM.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

13 MR. WOSTAL: And we test all of our products

14 to determine the rating. Then whose going -- the

15 testing, the verification testing, I mean, I guess DOE

16 would just, and you would accept our testing of our

17 product.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, we don't require third

19 party testing.

20 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Not unless that we get into

22 those AEDM provisions.
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1 MR. WOSTAL: I guess that's where I was

2 losing the --

3 MR. AMRANE: But you will have to do two

4 tests of each basic model, basically.

5 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

7 MR. SACHS: Unless it's unique product.

8 MR. BAUMAN: Or unless you have an AEDM.

9 MR. AMRANE: Or unless you an AEDM, yeah.

10 MS. BARHYDT: But it's two per basic model.

11 And if you have a range of efficiencies you test your

12 least efficient one.

13 MR. AMRANE: You're right; you can go to the

14 lowest denominator and you can do that. I understand.

15 But at the same time then there is, you know --

16 MS. BARHYDT: I understand. Our concern is

17 that there should not be ratings that are based on

18 something other than AEDM or testing. Because

19 otherwise we don't know where that number came from.

20 MR. RIVEST: I don't think an AEDM has to

21 come from a first thermodynamic principals here. It

22 can be a regression analysis.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Well, believe me, for the water

2 source heat pump guys, I mean, they've been struggling

3 for two years to have an ADEM. So far at least it's

4 not working that way. I mean, they are not able.

5 MR. RIVEST: But what I'm telling you is, it

6 doesn't have to be a --

7 MR. WOSTAL: Well, we're struggling to meet

8 the accuracy requirements.

9 MR. AMRANE: Exactly.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's where they're

11 struggling is in the accuracy requirement. It was --

12 now, I realize in this working group --

13 MR. WOSTAL: I'm sure that's where most

14 everybody struggles.

15 MS. BARHYDT: I was going to say, and we've

16 addressed some of those issues.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: But they were trying to be

18 compliant, and so --

19 MS. BARHYDT: I appreciate that.

20 MR. HALLEY: Well, are you saying then that

21 if we've got a lot of existing testing, we can plot it

22 and (inaudible).
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1 MR. RIVEST: An AEDM is not defined as to

2 what it means.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

4 MR. RIVEST: It's alternate determination

5 method.

6 MR. HALLEY: Yeah, and one will take you a

7 couple years, in my experience, to get there.

8 MR. RIVEST: I mean, it's just a linear

9 interpolation of two points.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. I mean, we've said

11 linear interpolation as well.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but if you've got a chunk

13 of data already it's, you know, in the boiler industry

14 a lot of this data is acquired during ULC safety

15 testing, not necessarily performance testing.

16 MS. BARHYDT: So that is one of the AEDM

17 requirements, is that the testing has to be done in

18 accordance with the DOE test procedure. And we're

19 aware of --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: We can't do it right now.

21 MS. BARHYDT: That issue and for some of

22 those products the manufacturers need to be filing a
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1 petition for a test procedure waiver, so that we can

2 deal with that in parallel with the test procedure

3 rulemaking.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: We have a AEDM meeting next

5 week.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: And I will broadcast that

8 information.

9 MR. MOLVIE: I have a question. Once a

10 waiver is issued, is that available to anybody?

11 MS. BARHYDT: Not exactly. I will say that

12 where a lot of manufacturers come in that have more or

13 less the same technology or the same test procedure

14 problem, the test procedures usually get processed more

15 quickly. But by its nature of test procedure waiver is

16 an administrative law, it's an adjudicatory decision,

17 so it's a case-by-case analysis, as opposed to a

18 rulemaking, where it's a change for the entire

19 industry. So it's not an automatic granting; it is a

20 case-by-case review.

21 MS. DANE: And that takes 90 days.

22 MS. BARHYDT: It may take longer than that.
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1 MS. DANE: Because 90's already too long if

2 we're trying to get a product. I know there was some

3 concern about it being 90 days or greater. If we take

4 an order and we're trying to get an order to market,

5 and we don't fit into a test procedure, yet we have to

6 mark a rating on it; how would we go about that? I

7 mean, we have to sit on the order until that's done?

8 Well, sometimes we get a customer that wants their --

9 MS. BARHYDT: And so the issue is that you

10 have a different test procedure problem than something

11 you've had before?

12 MS. DANE: We may have a one off of something

13 that's different.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Because --

15 MS. DANE: And I know that's coming up in the

16 discussion, but since the discussion of waiver was

17 brought up I thought this was a good time to --

18 MS. BARHYDT: So I am not advocating

19 distribution before you have an efficiency for your

20 product. But we do have an enforcement policy that we

21 do not prosecute anyone who is waiting for a pending

22 waiver application.
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1 MS. DANE: So there is an option. Non2 official.

3 MS. BARHYDT: We will not prosecute, it's not

4 saying it is lawful.

5 MS. DANE: Well, we would certainly let you

6 know as soon as we know.

7 MR. HON: The danger factor being that if it

8 doesn't get accepted then you've done something.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

10 MS. DANE: I think Joe Saunders is on the

11 line and he would like to speak to this definition. Is

12 that possible?

13 MS. BARHYDT: Definitely.

14 MR. EISNER: Joe?

15 MR. SAUNDERS: Yes, sir.

16 MR. EISNER: You had a comment?

17 MR. SAUNDERS: Hello.

18 MR. EISNER: We hear you.

19 MR. SAUNDERS: Yes, sir. Oh, okay, I didn't

20 know. My comment was about basic models. I sent the

21 moderator, whoever's name the webpage had, the exact

22 wording. And I'd just like to read it for the record
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1 and then I'll be finished. A basic model means all

2 units of commercial refrigeration equipment

3 manufactured by one manufacturer, having the same

4 primary energy source. Then in parentheses, I wrote,

5 plug, cord connected equipment or connection point

6 permanently connected equipment, end of parentheses,

7 which have essentially identical electrical, physical

8 and functional characteristics that affect energy

9 consumption per the total display area, or TDA, or

10 refrigerated volume as applicable. And then I have a

11 couple comments to go like that.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

13 MR. SAUNDERS: Section of the (inaudible)

14 section 431, part 66, the energy consumption for CRE

15 equipment is determined, A, either by the volume, if it

16 is self-contained, or by the cold display area if it is

17 a remote cabinet. So having those two items identified

18 at the end helps clarify it. And then removing energy

19 efficiency, water efficiency and water usage, which

20 have no part of section 431, part 66 removed any

21 ambient air, or something that could cause a mix-up.

22 And then also the hydraulic stuff. I'm not even quite
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1 sure where that came from.

2 And then in addition, the cord and primary

3 connected stipulations are part of UL 471, which is the

4 safety standard that governs all of this equipment.

5 Meaning where does that energy source start? Meaning

6 if you don't stipulate where the energy sources starts,

7 primary energy source, there could be done the road

8 some misunderstanding or misrepresentation of where

9 that energy source starts. And that is what we're

10 trying to measure with these regulations. So those are

11 my comments. The wording was sent to the moderator via

12 internet message. So I'm not sure if it's displayed or

13 not, but those were my comments. And I appreciate you

14 allowing me the opportunity to state them.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Would you like us to respond,

16 or were you mainly wanting it just put on the record

17 for the record of the public meeting?

18 MR. SAUNDERS: I wanted to -- I didn't know

19 what all the rules were legally. Meaning I didn't know

20 if I have to say them myself or what. So that's why I

21 asked to speak. And I think it helps clarify what a

22 basic model is, or how it could be interpreted. In
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1 keeping in line with DOE's desires. I mean, I didn't

2 really change what you said. I just clarified couple

3 of points and remove stuff that could cause confusion

4 down the road.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So the issue with primary

6 source, the energy source is the type of energy. And

7 to give you some context, this definition originally,

8 and the reason it had hydraulic in there, it was a

9 generic definition that covered all of the products DOE

10 regulates. So it covered water faucets in your

11 household bathroom, all the way up to the large unitary

12 air conditioners. So it spanned a huge range of

13 products. And so energy source actually was referring

14 to whether or not it was an energy water, whether the

15 energy was coming from gas, electricity. So it's not

16 talking about does it plug into the wall. It's talking

17 about they run on electricity.

18 MR. SAUNDERS: I understand what you're

19 saying. But it doesn't apply here. Because 431.66

20 doesn't reference water sources, hydraulic sources or

21 the like.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So we took out
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1 hydraulic. But what I'm saying is that primary energy

2 source is not referring to the plug into the wall.

3 It's referring to electricity.

4 MR. HON: That's not necessarily a complete

5 true statement. Because there are a whole lot of

6 absorption units built which use propane or natural

7 gas, and that is a primary energy source.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so we can do an

9 parenthetical that gives us more options on that.

10 MR. SAUNDERS: I hear what you're saying.

11 MR. HON: That's not covered by the standard.

12 MS. BARHYDT: And it's not subject to the

13 standard, is that what you said?

14 MR. SAUNDERS: Whoever said that, that could

15 be a true statement. The regulations of 431.66 doesn't

16 provide acceptable rating criteria for those alternate

17 energy sources. They provide alternate rating rated

18 only for kilowatts per day.

19 MR. BAUMAN: It's the rating of the test

20 procedure.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Right, okay. But so the only

22 ones that we're regulating are electric.
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1 MR. SAUNDERS: If you leave those in there,

2 what is the rating for water? I mean, am I going to

3 use --

4 MR. STANONIK: It's gone.

5 MS. BARHYDT: No, it's gone. We took that

6 out.

7 MR. SAUNDERS: Okay. All right. Thank you,

8 I'm having trouble seeing here.

9 MR. STANONIK: I think, Laura, you might want

10 to explain why you took away the display case and the

11 volume.

12 MS. BARHYDT: The other. Okay, so the test

13 procedure, the way the test procedure is written, you

14 determine the -- are they both efficiency, or is one

15 efficiency and one consumption, or they're both

16 consumption?

17 MR. BAUMAN: They're both consumption.

18 MS. BARHYDT: They're both consumption.

19 MR. SAUNDERS: They're both consumption.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So the test procedure is set up

21 so that it determines the consumption in a way that it

22 determines for a fixed size case. It's not generating
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1 a metric that is based on, for example, linear feet, or

2 it's not generated a number that's based on total

3 display area. The test procedure takes you all the way

4 through, and you actually calculate it for a fixed size

5 of case. So --

6 MR. SAUNDERS: That's correct.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So that --

8 MR. SAUNDERS: Either by volume or --

9 MS. BARHYDT: But so that is what the level

10 at which a basic model would be set. If you wanted to

11 do some kind of extrapolation, some kind of

12 mathematical model of how that might apply to other

13 cases, that would fall within an AEDM. But that would

14 not make them all the same basic model.

15 MR. SAUNDERS: Am I still on?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

17 MR. SAUNDERS: Okay, I agree with that. And

18 it would be energy consumption either by the volume of

19 the case or by the total display area of a fixed case.

20 And I agree with that.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

22 MR. BAUMAN: Laura, I just want to keep in
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1 mind too, I know there was a lot of, you know, we were

2 originally discussing this yesterday, there was a lot

3 of passion in parts of the room. Some folks on the

4 other side with the open cases, Southern Equipment, I

5 know there's been concerns in the past with Kaiser

6 Warren, Hill Phoenix and people about open cases.

7 I'm hoping, assuming from the concerns I

8 recall having a couple years ago now that probably what

9 led to us getting to this and the AEDMs and such, that

10 that AEDMs are going to address that sufficiently for

11 manufacturers. Versus where were previously looking at

12 basic models would, expanding basic models would solve

13 that. So I don't know how much negative, or questions

14 or comments you're going to get from people that aren't

15 here who are try to decide on this right now. But I

16 wouldn't be surprised at that. Just for clarity, you

17 know.

18 MS. BARHYDT: I realize that the change from

19 no AEDM to having an AEDM changes the ballgame

20 significantly for you.

21 MR. BAUMAN: And I assume there's nobody on

22 the call for any of these companies that wants to jump
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1 in on open cases.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Nobody's pinging that they want

3 to talk. So, yeah, go ahead.

4 MR. HON: But are we going to make any change

5 in that as far as primary energy source?

6 MS. BARHYDT: So what we've done in the past,

7 because we've actually had this situation, we left it

8 so that it's limited to the same primary energy source,

9 where only one energy source was regulated. That way

10 if at some point in the future it changes, the

11 definition stays the same.

12 MR. SAUNDERS: Can I ask a question?

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

14 MR. SAUNDERS: Am I still on, ma'am?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, you are.

16 MR. SAUNDERS: I would like to ask a

17 question, I think it's simple. What if you sell a

18 refrigerator, like Charlie does, and you have a sign

19 kit for it, does the sign kit get included with the

20 primary energy source of the refrigerator? And the

21 sign kit would have a separate power cord. How would

22 you handle, two pieces, it could be married in the
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1 field by a customer to have two different power cords,

2 one for the refrigerator and one for a sign kit that

3 would hang on the front of the cabinet. Maybe it says

4 "cold drinks sold here."

5 MS. BARHYDT: I have no idea what a sign kit

6 is.

7 MS. JAKOBS: A sign.

8 MR. SAUNDERS: Well, imagine like --

9 MS. BARHYDT: And it hangs on the front of

10 the --

11 MR. MYERS: It's a lighted sign.

12 MR. SACHS: Like a Michelob sign on the front

13 of a bar window. Have you seen those?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

15 MR. BAUMAN: Coors Light, Budweiser.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Why would that be part of the

17 covered equipment?

18 MR. BAUMAN: Why would it be covered?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Why would that even be covered?

20 It seems to me that that's not part of the regulated

21 product.

22 MR. SAUNDERS: Well, that's what I want to
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1 ask. Because a vendor, whoever it is, could sell a

2 refrigerator, you know, for merchandising anything,

3 soda, or whatever. And then they might have a kit that

4 goes with it that says cold drinks and you would --

5 MS. JAKOBS: Oh, like part of the machine.

6 MR. SAUNDERS: They were built from the same

7 manufacturer. And you plug them in essentially to a

8 receptacle.

9 MS. JAKOBS: But Coke machines or beverages

10 vending machines are regulated separately.

11 MR. SAUNDERS: And I didn't if they're two

12 pieces and the only the refrigerator is regulated, or

13 is it one considered one piece and both of them go

14 together.

15 MS. DANE: I believe the original concern we

16 has is our units are identified by serial number and by

17 device number. And we could some of those options as

18 part of our model. And since at that time it wouldn't

19 be the basic, the consumption would be different, do we

20 have to go and make a basic model for all that, or

21 would we want to discuss exemptions. Or if we took it

22 off and it was two separate pieces, how that would be
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1 affected by the regulation. I think there's some

2 confusion on that. But we were kind of waiting until

3 the same discussion with the night curtains and the

4 water condensation.

5 MS. BARHYDT: I was going to say, things like

6 that I don't think I would have anticipated. So if you

7 have more questions like that, make the list.

8 MR. STANONIK: Does it add pressure drop?

9 MS. DANE: I beg your pardon?

10 MR. STANONIK: I said does it add pressure

11 drop?

12 MS. DANE: Oh, okay. Some.

13 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Most of those

14 are integral into the system almost exclusively. When

15 you have a big customer, you just build them into the

16 system. But there are people -- there are ways if you

17 wanted to circumvent power consumption, you would pull

18 the lights off and make them a separate plug. There is

19 a question there about that, but that's when it's going

20 to dicey on interpretation. We're going to need this

21 interpretation.

22 So we'll be bringing you a list of
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1 potentials, because some lights are impossible to

2 remove. The internal light from the unit you can't

3 take out. The external light we could pull off and

4 made a slip on kit, plug it in separately. It'd look

5 like the dickens, because you have extra cords hanging

6 everywhere. But it could be done that way to

7 circumvent the total power consumption unit. Now, we

8 also have the same question coming if we do this, how

9 do we deal with Energy Star in the same category,

10 because it's all covered under the same criteria.

11 There are a lot of other add-ons that can happen.

12 MR. SAUNDERS: May I speak?

13 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead.

14 MR. SAUNDERS: I picked lighted signs,

15 because we don't make any. Again, we'll just take that

16 out of the equation. The next thing is what Charlie is

17 saying is his company doesn't make accessories that

18 hang on the front of the cabinet. But there are other

19 companies that do make lighted signs that hang on the

20 front of cabinets. And they may not be like his lighted

21 sign kits; they may be bigger, smaller, or something

22 else. But it's not true. What you need to consider
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1 here is the industry as a whole. And take the lighted

2 signs, because we don't make any of them, so we don't

3 have a iron in that fire. But I wanted to make that as

4 an example.

5 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon again. We do

6 make add-on kits on occasion for old units and

7 different things. But the situation is, is that our

8 market is driven in a different way predominantly. But

9 there are exceptions to that rule. And if that

10 exception becomes an avoidance of energy consumption,

11 you can make your numbers look really good by not

12 having that light on.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So, again, if you all will make

14 your list for your products and then we'll go through

15 those. So, again, recognizing that there are still

16 basic model issues out there, would people be up for

17 starting tiptoe into the waters of what certification

18 would actually entail?

19 MR. EISNER: We have one slide on outstanding

20 issues. Do we want to put that up?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, do we?

22 MS. TUCKER: We did.
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1 MR. STEM: We covered that.

2 MR. EISNER: We covered everything on there

3 now?

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Why don't we take a break?

6 MS. BARHYDT: So think about that and we'll

7 take a break.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Can we also -- and maybe you

9 mentioned this before, and if so I apologize, but I've

10 forgotten it. What's the process going to be when we

11 talked about the package A factor clipping, for

12 example. There were a number of things that were not

13 decided on. What's the process for that? Do we need to

14 have more discussion on that, do you need more

15 information?

16 MS. BARHYDT: So we're going to send out some

17 information before the next meeting and plan on

18 wrapping up that discussion at the next meeting.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

20 MS. BARHYDT: I think we need to sit down.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Will we have some time to look

22 at that before the next meeting?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

3 MR. AMRANE: Will we have access to whatever

4 changes that you made today, so at least we can --

5 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, we can do that pretty

6 easily.

7 MR. EISNER: The list of issues that you've

8 been talking about on other things, do you want those

9 to be sent in for the next meeting?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, if you all can provide

11 that before the next meeting that would be ideal. And

12 then --

13 MR. HON: We have an extended time this time.

14 MS. TUCKER: Yeah, three weeks.

15 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, three weeks. We have a

16 break.

17 MR. EISNER: We also have two reports,

18 however, that I want to talk about when we get back

19 from the break, two reports that have to go out that

20 may go back to you to look at quickly before they're

21 sent out.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Two or one? Two?
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1 MR. EISNER: Well, there's AEDM and there's

2 (inaudible). They could be combined.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. Yeah.

4 MR. EISNER: I think we want to get the AEDM

5 right out.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

7 MR. EISNER: And then do the interim report

8 that's due June 26th.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

10 MR. HON: I don't see how we're going to get

11 through certifications and anything else today if we're

12 doing anything else. We still have not agreed

13 completely on everything going to the ASRAC committee;

14 have we?

15 MS. BARHYDT: I thought we voted on the

16 AEDMs.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: The AEDM.

18 MR. HON: Yes, so everything else we send in?

19 MS. BARHYDT: The other thing is just a

20 progress report.

21 MR. HON: Okay.

22 MR. EISNER: And that's --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: But we're still working on

2 basic model definitions.

3 MR. EISNER: And that, when we come back from

4 the break, we went to see if there are any specific

5 ideas or points you would want to make in the progress

6 report. And if Corey's nice, she'll put them up on the

7 screen for everybody to look at, so we all have data.

8 Okay, take a ten-minute break before it gets

9 to 3:00.

10 (Whereupon, a short break was taken.)

11 MR. EISNER: For the first report that we

12 have to submit to ASRAC, we're going to submit the AEDM

13 document that we agreed to, saying that the committee

14 recommends that the full ASRAC -- the subgroup rather,

15 recommends that the full ASRAC approve it as a

16 recommendation to submit to the Department of Energy to

17 begin rulemaking, or to get a notice of opposed

18 rulemaking. What I see as a report that would be very

19 brief that would put that chart that we agreed to and

20 the summary that we agreed to in context. A little bit

21 of the factual background of what we did, how we got to

22 it, why it was an expansion of our original scope for
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1 this project. So any points that you would want to

2 make, any issues you would want to raise in this report

3 we ought to talk about quickly?

4 MR. HALLEY: Well, I'd just like to make sure

5 that this sort of manufacturer's inclusion in the

6 testing one that are too large to test in the

7 manufacturer's facility.

8 MS. TUCKER: It's in the AEDM.

9 MR. EISNER: The AEDM report that we ordered

10 out at the beginning of these two days worth of

11 meetings will be the attachment. That is the primary

12 substantive document.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's important to me.

14 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other points, other

15 issues, other things people would like to raise? Okay.

16 The second report is the report that was required by

17 ASRAC of the -- I'm sorry, go ahead.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I'm just trying to hear

19 you.

20 MR. EISNER: No, no, there's a man behind

21 you.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm just trying to hear you
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1 more than anything.

2 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTD. I

3 think one of the important points to make to ASRAC is

4 that we're doing all this with the intent that once

5 we're at the end we want to have the ability to go back

6 and look at the previous steps we've taken, to make

7 sure that everything fits together as a whole.

8 MR. EISNER: Corey, can you start us up a

9 sheet and get that up there? That's understood.

10 That's a good point to make that we can put into the

11 report itself. Again, this is not going to be getting

12 into great deal on substance. I see it as, for

13 example, attaching the schedule to show how we intend

14 to complete the project by the end of August. I see it

15 as telling them what progress we have made so far in

16 terms of what issues we have gone through. And the

17 fact that we've got ground rules and we're exceeding

18 the ground rules in terms of consensus support, those

19 kinds of things.

20 Are there other points you'd want to make?

21 Do you want to say anything about how optimistic a

22 group is, or unoptimistic a group is? Do you want to
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1 say whether you think you can or cannot meet the

2 deadline for the final report? Do you want to avoid

3 those subject?

4 MR. SACHS: I would be willing to say that

5 I'm encouraged by the spirit of working together. But

6 I don't think I'm at a point of being able or willing

7 to predict whether we'll be successful or not.

8 MR. EISNER: Others agree with Harvey and

9 would they put that down as one of the things we should

10 mention?

11 MR. JOHNSON: Can you just restate that,

12 Harvey? I heard the word "encourage," but then

13 everything else went away.

14 MR. SACHS: I'm encouraged with the attitudes

15 and the efforts and the progress we're making. But I

16 certainly don't feel in a position to predict that we

17 will or will not succeed.

18 MR. JOHNSON: I would agree with that.

19 MS. JAKOBS: I think there's a number of

20 issues that have been tabled or deferred to later. So

21 there's some apprehension about what that will be.

22 MR. EISNER: Do you want to make that point,
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1 or do you --

2 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, I think you should.

3 MS. JAKOBS: Some of the hard things have

4 been pushed until later. And people made assumptions

5 based on what they thought would happen later and what

6 we did now. And if that doesn't work out the way, it

7 might not, I don't know, it might be confusing. Well,

8 the whole thing about basic models and --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Well, I mean, we just started

10 that discussion and I think there are a lot of

11 significant substantive issues. And I don't want us to

12 rush to a judgment. And so to me, that wasn't an issue

13 that we had to resolve before the interim report. And

14 I'd rather us continue the discussion at the next

15 meeting. Give everyone additional time to think about

16 it, to look at it. I know Karim wants to get some

17 additional information from some of the manufacturing

18 groups.

19 MR. EISNER: Anything else?

20 MR. AMRANE: But about the timeline, we have

21 until, what, the end of August?

22 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.
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1 MR. AMRANE: I mean, are we going to be able

2 to meet the deadline or not? I mean, the way it's

3 going.

4 MS. BARHYDT: I think so. There's not that

5 much left. I mean, basic model was the most

6 complicated issue.

7 MR. JOHNSON: But we're not done with the

8 basic model discussion.

9 MS. BARHYDT: No, we're not. But we

10 certainly covered a lot of material the last few days.

11 MR. JOHNSON: We did.

12 MR. EISNER: There's two aspects to what you

13 tell a committee generally in this kind of a situation.

14 The deadline is established with a purpose to makes

15 sure that no one can use this process to delay the

16 issuance of some action in the future in the future,

17 whether it's a rulemaking or something else. So there

18 are two aspects of where we are. One is we've got a

19 long way to go. The other one is based on the way you

20 came into these meetings at the first, it was a month

21 and a half ago, do you feel more optimistic than you

22 were then about the ability to get something done, even
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1 if you can't meet the schedule? Because that's

2 something you'd want to say to the full committee.

3 We're not going to make the schedule. And we

4 don't have to say it now, we might say that to them in

5 early August. We're not going to make the schedule,

6 but we recommend you extend the deadline, because we

7 believe we're making very good progress. So that's the

8 kind of message you could also send now. We've got a

9 lot to do, but we believe we're making more progress

10 than we expected we could make, or we think we're

11 making very, very good progress. And then you don't

12 have to say that now. You might want to wait until

13 August when you know a little bit more. But you might

14 want to give them a positive message if you think

15 you've got one now.

16 MR. DOPPEL: When you say "extend the

17 deadline," which deadline?

18 MR. EISNER: The deadline for a final report

19 by the end of August.

20 MR. DOPPEL: Okay.

21 MR. EISNER: So what happens sometimes is

22 committees make very good progress, but they can't meet
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1 the deadline that's been established by the agency

2 head, or the committee that delegated to you. So they

3 say, "We can't make the deadline. We think it will

4 take us three more weeks or six more weeks. We

5 strongly recommend that you approve it, because we

6 believe we will be successful." In other words, we're

7 not using this to delay; we're using this because we

8 think we can meet it. And again, the agency has to be

9 one of the parties that would agree with something like

10 that.

11 MR. BAUMAN: I guess one of the things I'd

12 like to clarify -- I mean, the second bolt there is

13 kind of what you were saying. The second of it saying

14 I'm willing to agree that we will or will not succeed.

15 Do you mean within the time period allotted, or do you

16 think we're not going to succeed? Is that meant to say

17 we don't know if we're going to succeed at all, or

18 within the time allotted?

19 MR. EISNER: And you don't even have to say

20 this. I'm not sure you meant for it to be included in

21 the report. I thought you might've meant just this

22 part. You don't have to say this unless you're ready to
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1 say it.

2 MR. BAUMAN: I think we, based on your

3 comments, which I appreciate, I think is very accurate

4 as far as I think I would describe it as very in depth

5 discussions that have gotten into a lot of detail and a

6 lot of things have been flushed out to a level that's

7 been productive, but may push us past the anticipated

8 timeline.

9 MR. EISNER: People generally agree with

10 saying something like that?

11 MS. DANE: Especially since we added the AEDM

12 into our scope. I don't think when the original

13 deadline was set that that was going to be part of our

14 timeline. And so that took a couple of meetings to kind

15 of get through, and therefore it would make sense that

16 the schedule would be a little late.

17 MR. EISNER: That's a very good point. And

18 that is something I didn't necessarily want to draw any

19 conclusions about the schedule. I'm not saying we

20 can't. But I was intending to at least say that we've

21 covered more than the full committee, the full ASRAC

22 expected us to considered when they assigned the
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1 project to us. But, Charlie, you seem to have some

2 concern.

3 MR. HON: I don't have concerns. I don't

4 believe that we'll run beyond the deadline.

5 MR. EISNER: All right.

6 MR. HON: I think they way we've gone through

7 and we've beat up the necessary portions here, I think

8 we have gotten to the point where we can move a lot

9 faster than we have in the past. I think that meeting

10 of the horses helped us understand how to function

11 quicker. And we're moving forward at a much greater

12 rate now than we were when we started.

13 MR. EISNER: So everybody feels, I think,

14 positive about this. Just how to word this part.

15 MR. SACHS: Yeah, if anything that's a

16 separate bullet anyhow.

17 MR. MYERS: Jeff, thank you for bringing that

18 up.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

20 MR. MYERS: I think we're all willing to do

21 it; we just feel unable to do it.

22 MR. EISNER: And it could be we could add to
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1 it Mary's point about the fact that we've got more than

2 we originally were asked to do in that timeframe. But

3 again, you could say something like we think we can, or

4 at the present time we're not certain, but we believe

5 we can meet the deadline. We will let the committee

6 know as such time as we think we'll need more if we

7 need it.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Well, one thing that is kind of

9 hanging out there is that the things that we're

10 identifying going through the basic model definitions

11 that are not clear. So we don't have a path to

12 resolution on those. And we won't find that out until

13 next time. So that's kind of an iffy situation.

14 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, a few of them we did

15 say.

16 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

17 MS. JAKOBS: So but the one you said no, is

18 that like final? I mean, if you say yes, that's cool.

19 But where you said no is kind of like, no.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Which one did I say no?

21 MS. JAKOBS: Coated coils.

22 MR. WHITWELL: No, copper coils was no, I
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1 think.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Copper coil.

3 MR. FLY: Coated wasn't. Coated is the deal

4 within a product class.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Coated was still --

6 MS. JAKOBS: Copper. It was the very first

7 one you said.

8 MR. RIVEST: I did, actually. She wasn't

9 here.

10 MS. JAKOBS: Oh, okay.

11 MR. RIVEST: I said no for copper, and I said

12 we don't know for coated. We hadn't made a decision.

13 MS. JAKOBS: But copper coils, it was no.

14 MR. FLY: Well, I think in support of that

15 above where we're at, I mean, we've been able to reach

16 consensus on all the points that we had addressed. I

17 don't think we've tabled things because we couldn't

18 reach a consensus, we tabled things because we weren't

19 ready to talk about it then.

20 MR. MYERS: Or we needed more information.

21 MR. FLY: Or needed more information.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Exactly.
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1 MR. MYERS: I think that's a good

2 distinction.

3 MR. EISNER: Yeah.

4 MR. MYERS: Because I was encouraged by the

5 fact we were able to on the AEDM agree. And I didn't

6 think we were going to have near the success. I

7 thought we would have some who were voting no. That

8 really is encouraging. And we haven't yet come up

9 against an item that is one of those where, well, we'll

10 just agree to disagree and move on and see what we can

11 do.

12 MR. EISNER: Is that something that they

13 weren't tabled because of disagreement, they were

14 tabled because more information is needed? Did you

15 want to add to this?

16 MR. STANONIK: It's based on discussion.

17 MR. EISNER: Is that fine the way it is? So

18 any kind of, not necessarily conclusion, anything more

19 you want to say in this empty bullet right here?

20 Encouraged with attitudes and efforts. You know, I

21 think we've agreed we want to say something about we've

22 got more work than we were scheduled to be working on.
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1 And yet we still believe that we're likely to make the

2 schedule, or there's a good possibility. Do you want

3 to say something along those lines?

4 MR. BAUMAN: I think to things, one talking

5 about encouraging, I think one of the things that's

6 been encouraging, but sometimes slowing us down is that

7 we are I'll say striving hard for unanimous consensus

8 on everything as we pointed out. We haven't had

9 anything that we've had -- I mean, I'm reminded

10 previously, we did have two negative votes. But I

11 think in a lot of ways it's good that we're working

12 towards that.

13 I would think you guys will be happier if we

14 have everything unanimous. So I think that's been a

15 worthwhile effort. I think the question whether we're

16 going to meet or not meet, I think there's, you know, I

17 don't know how the other discussions. I wouldn't hope

18 that we're going to need it, but I think as a group

19 we're probably I'd say unsure. But still driving,

20 still striving towards that to meet the deadline.

21 MR. EISNER: I mean, the question is do you

22 want to say anything more than this? You don't have
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1 to. Do you want to leave it as it is, or do you want

2 to say something else?

3 MR. MYERS: It might be worthwhile to note

4 that all the participants are remaining active. We're

5 meeting at a frenetic pace. For those of us that are

6 having to, particularly those having to travel in from

7 outside at great cost and great contribution in terms

8 of time, and those people are still coming. They're

9 seeing the opportunity for success.

10 MR. EISNER: I mean, I'm supposed to -- go

11 ahead.

12 MS. TUCKER: I was just going to ask if that

13 could go along with this encouraged bullet, or do you

14 want that as a separate?

15 MR. RIVEST: That's a separate bullet.

16 MS. TUCKER: Okay.

17 MR. EISNER: I mean, from my perspective as

18 the neutral, the first meeting I wasn't sure we were

19 going to be able to get agreement, consensus with or

20 without two negative votes by the end of August, let

21 alone ever. My feeling is now the same as yours is:

22 we're going to get an agreement. There may be some
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1 negative votes in some of the issues, but the way we're

2 going right now we might get unanimous consensus on

3 everything.

4 It may take us longer. But it's up to you

5 whether you want to say that now. We don't have to.

6 And I agree with what I'm hearing around the room, you

7 guys are all trying very hard, you're talking very well

8 to each other. I hear people listening to each other

9 and learning from each other. I said to a number of

10 you the last couple of days, although a bit tedious for

11 me and others who, you know, weren't directly involved

12 because of the equipment they manufacture. It was very

13 informative to watch all the adding information to the

14 chart. Every five minutes, something new is going up

15 on the chart. Everybody was learning from this

16 process. And that's what this is supposed to -- if

17 everybody learns and they still can't agree, we've done

18 the best we can. But everybody's learning; everybody's

19 listening. And I think that's very, very important.

20 You guys are doing a great job at that.

21 MR. STANONIK: So what if it said too soon to

22 predict whether working group will succeed at its task
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1 or not. But all participants remain active and engaged

2 in ongoing discussions of negotiations?

3 MR. EISNER: Does that work for people?

4 MR. WHITWELL: I would modify that, because I

5 think when you say will succeed you're really talking

6 about succeeding as far as meeting the date. Right?

7 MR. EISNER: Well, actually, I meant coming

8 up with the negotiated recommendation that --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Frank --

10 MR. STANONIK: Actually, I'm not as worried

11 about Bates test results.

12 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah, see, I'm optimistic that

13 we're going to get there. I'm just not sure that we're

14 going to get there --

15 MR. STANONIK: Well, I didn't mean that. I

16 meant whether we will get there.

17 MR. BAUMAN: With same, you know, at the

18 targeted date. But I'm optimistic that we're going to

19 get to where we wanted, to an agreement.

20 MR. EISNER: Does everybody want to say that?

21 And then the next bullet can be whether we'll make it

22 by the date. Does everybody say we're optimistic that
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1 we will get to an agreement, consensus agreement?

2 MR. STANONIK: Yes.

3 MR. MYERS: The one are that remains a

4 question mark for me that we need to begin the

5 discussion on I think sooner rather than later is VICP.

6 You said that that was a part of what we were trying to

7 accomplish. And we haven't had those discussions. So I

8 don't yet have a feel for how close we can come with

9 our thoughts.

10 MR. EISNER: Yeah, but this is not saying we

11 will achieve consensus, we're optimistic. Are you

12 comfortable with that? Okay.

13 MR. SACHS: How about you say "cautiously

14 optimistic."

15 MR. STANONIK: "Essentially optimistic."

16 MR. EISNER: Would people be more comfortable

17 with cautiously?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Frank, would you agree that

19 everything we're doing is leading up to a better

20 position going into that discussion?

21 MR. MYERS: Yes, absolutely.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So that's why I think we're
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1 structuring it.

2 MR. MYERS: We have a track record of

3 success. I'm really impressed with what the

4 manufacturers have done in terms of this is exposing

5 the inner workings of how things have occurred for 30

6 years. And things that were not intuitively obvious to

7 regulators and to others. And to put that out on the

8 table where that took a lot of honesty and a lot of

9 trust. And those are the things that encourage me that

10 we're going to make it to the end.

11 MR. STANONIK: I don't want to say that to

12 set you up, but I think everything we're doing is

13 sequentially leading -- wait until you try and leave.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: I was in your office for a

15 half hour, I saw it.

16 MR. EISNER: I've got to tell you I'm going

17 to have a different feeling when I walk in and buy a

18 six- pack out of a refrigerated cooler in the store.

19 MR. MYERS: Where they have a sign on the

20 front.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: And you don't want that voice

22 you're on it, you know, so we're going to make sure
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1 that the space is dehumidified.

2 MR. EISNER: I hadn't even though about that

3 before, but now I would. So do we want to add

4 cautiously, or do you want to take cautiously out?

5 MR. STANONIK: It's reasonable.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: It is reasonable.

7 MR. EISNER: I would say one more bullet. Do

8 you want to say anything about time? We don't have to.

9 It's whatever you feel comfortable.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think it's too early to

11 tell.

12 MR. STANONIK: I think it's too early. I

13 think we just leave it out.

14 MR. EISNER: Okay, that's fine. I think

15 we've got a good list and we can go to the report.

16 Anybody got any questions or anything else? All right,

17 let's go the next slide, at least start talking about

18 it, so that Laura will feel more comfortable with where

19 we are on this issue.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so the current system is

21 that certification reports are submitted online through

22 a compliance certification management system. We also
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1 allow third parties to submit reports on behalf of

2 parties; we allow AHRI to send us files directly that

3 are uploaded into the system. That is a arrangement we

4 have made that we have not offered to any other party,

5 so everybody else is required to use the templates that

6 we have online. The manufacturer or the third party --

7 whoever's actually accessing the compliance

8 certification management system -- is required to

9 register with the Department and provide some contact

10 information. And the information that is provided is

11 in the CFR 429.12 for all products and it's -- there's

12 some basic types of information. And then there's

13 product-specific information that's in 429.14 through

14 429.54 and the next slides kind of go through that in

15 more detail.

16 The certification is made by the

17 manufacturer. A third party representative is

18 submitting the information on behalf of the

19 manufacturer, but it is the manufacturer who is

20 ultimately responsible for the certification that the

21 product meets the standard.

22 MR. HALLEY: Who would be the third-party
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1 representation in Q-mide (ph) case?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: So nobody is required to have a

3 third-party representative.

4 MR. HALLEY: Okay.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Many, many, many manufacturers

6 submit reports directly.

7 MR. HALLEY: Okay.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: And the system uses Excel

9 templates. You go on our website, you download the

10 Excel template, you fill it out.

11 MR. HALLEY: Right.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: The way it's designed is to

13 reduce the burden of entering information, and you can

14 just use basically your same Excel file and just make

15 little modifications if you add models or remove

16 models. You just do it all on that one spreadsheet.

17 MR. HALLEY: Right.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: The third-party representative

19 does make a statement whenever they submit the report

20 that, to the best of their knowledge, the information

21 is true, accurate and complete, but again, it is the

22 manufacturer who is actually making the certification
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1 that the product is compliant.

2 And the current requirement is that each

3 basic model must be certified prior to distribution in

4 commerce, as well as annually on a specific date that

5 is product -- it's a different date for various

6 products. And you also have to update your

7 certification if you choose to something worse for the

8 consumer. So, if you change your rating to be either

9 less efficient or more consumptive, you have to notify

10 the Department when you make that change.

11 So that's the way the regulations are set out

12 right now.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So I know there's been a lot of

14 concern about the information that is submitted to the

15 Department, and the way the regulations are set out

16 right now, some of the information is identified as

17 publici the regulation. This is the information that

18 DOE proactively posts on its website. And, from what I

19 understand, a lot of suppliers are now going tour

20 website to see whether products are listed on our

21 website as having been certified for the products that

22 are submitting Certification Reports.
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1 And the information typically involves the

2 brand. It does not include the manufacturer. So that

3 where there is a private labeling relationship, we are

4 not publishing the manufacturer name. So we publish

5 brand, we publish the model number -- the basic model

6 number -- and we publish any of the metrics that are

7 regulated by the Department. So whatever your rating

8 is. And we provide enough information so that that

9 metric makes sense, so that somebody who is trying to

10 compare similar products can actually see -- limit

11 their search to those pieces of information.

12 So that would be things like the capacity

13 metrics, refrigerated volume, storage volume, cooling

14 capacity.

15 Information that is not identified as public

16 in the regulations is not published on the website.

17 That is not to say that someone can't get the

18 information. At that point, the information is subject

19 to the Freedom of Information Act. While the Department

20 is not proactively publishing the information, people

21 can request information. As part of processing a

22 request for information, the department goes through
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1 and searches our records for a response of documents.

2 So it depends on what exactly they ask for. And then

3 we send the documents back to the people who originally

4 submitted it to us, and we seek their views. And the

5 DOE has regulations about exactly how this process

6 works. But basically, we send it back to you and we

7 say what do you think on this document is confidential

8 business information? And we set out the legal

9 standard for exactly how that all works. And we get

10 your views. Ultimately, it is the Department's

11 determination of whether the information is

12 confidential business information or not. But that's

13 basically how that process works.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Could we be labeling that to

15 the Department ahead of time?

16 MS. BARHYDT: You can, although the way our

17 regulations are written, we are going to send it back

18 to you anyway.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh?

20 MS. BARHYDT: It's probably not important.

21 It also reduces the burden for you, because if we never

22 receive a request, you don't have to go through and
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1 think -- I mean you don't have to make any effort until

2 we actually receive a request.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: So how long does that process

4 take, typically?

5 MS. BARHYDT: When somebody files a request?

6 MR. BALLO: Three weeks, right?

7 MS. BARHYDT: That's the legal requirement,

8 yes.

9 MR. STANOIK: That's a nominal.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: And so we have to respond in

11 that time?

12 MS. BARHYDT: I believe the regulations give

13 you seven days to respond.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. That's -- I guess I see

15 more that it would be a timesaver up front to be

16 notified than having to react in seven days when I

17 might have people across the world I have to get to.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: I have to get lawyers. I have

20 to get engineers and design centers.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So right now, I wanted to give

22 this some framework when we talk about some of this
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1 information.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. I understand.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Because it may be that the

4 information we want isn't stuff that you don't already

5 provide to AHRI or isn't already more or less public.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So we'll see.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

9 MS. BARHYDT: But are there other questions

10 about the process?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. I'm actually thinking

12 more about test reports. Well, I'm also thinking about

13 what we provide to AHRI too. There's stuff that's not

14 -- shouldn't be public.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Right. Yeah. I would think

16 the information that we talked about in the context of

17 the validation testing -- verification testing --

18 whatever we ended up calling it -- for the AEDMs, and

19 where we said that manufacturers could submit

20 information to us for testing, that -- I can see that

21 that might be . . .

22 So the basic pieces of information that we
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1 collect for all of the products are the product

2 equipment type. So that would be commercial

3 refrigeration equipment or commercial HVAC at the

4 absolute highest level. The product equipment class --

5 those are more the -- they are similar to the AEDM

6 validation classes that we talked about, but it's -- in

7 the regulations it's each individual type that has a

8 different standard. So if there's a different

9 standard, that's a different equipment class.

10 The manufacturer's name and address. If the

11 product is privately label, the private labeler's name

12 and address.

13 The brand name, if it is branded separate

14 with a different name than the manufacturer's name.

15 The basic model number. The individual model

16 numbers within the basic model.

17 The status. Basically there's a place to say

18 that this is a new certification; this is an amended

19 certification; this is something that I have

20 discontinued. So that's the status.

21 The test sample size. So if you use an AEDM,

22 we've been just having people put a one in there
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1 because it's not really based on testing. And that's

2 really just a matter of having -- there's another place

3 where you mark that you used an AEDM. So it's not

4 really checking on that.

5 U.S. Customs and Border Protection Importer

6 ID Number, if applicable. Whether the certification is

7 based on a test procedure waiver and the date of the

8 waiver; whether the certification is based on Office of

9 Hearings and Appeals relief and the date, if that was

10 granted; and then whether the certification is based on

11 an AEDM.

12 So those are the basic pieces of information

13 we ask from everyone.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: So give me an example please of

15 weather certifications based on exemption relief from

16 . . . ?

17 MS. BARHYDT: So, for products that have

18 statutory standards, you can't get relief from

19 statutory standards. Where the standards were set by

20 regulation, there is a process in DOE's regulations for

21 a manufacturer to appeal to the Office of Hearings and

22 Appeals for relief from the standard. And they usually
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1 set a new standard for that product. And I believe the

2 standard is you have to demonstrate that there is

3 something different about your product that was not

4 considered in the Department's rulemaking --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay.

6 MS. BARHYDT: -- such that your product

7 cannot achieve the, like --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Intent of the --

9 MS. BARHYDT: -- thermodynamics. It can't

10 actually achieve that standard.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. SACHS: One example that was recent,

13 fairly prominent, was application for waiver on the

14 basis of space constraints for split systems less than

15 three times.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Right.

17 MALE SPEAKER: Like small duct high velocity.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Small duct high

19 velocity. Yeah.

20 MR. AMRANE: No doubt.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Or VRF products also have --

22 MR. HOOTMAN: Yeah. Yeah. The VRF. Yeah.
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1 Exactly. Okay. Got it.

2 MR. AMRANE: VRF was different. VRF was not

3 through --

4 MS. BARHYDT: It was a test run -- a test

5 procedure waiver.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Test -- oh, that's right.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. That's why I just didn't

8 see the difference between them, but small duct high

9 velocity. Okay.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So the test procedure

11 waiver is giving you a different test procedure, the

12 same standard.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Yeah.

14 MS. BARHARDT: OHA (ph) relief is actually

15 giving you a different standard.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

18 MR. WHITWELL: What's an example of a

19 statutory standard?

20 MS. BARHYDT: A lot of your products have

21 statutory standards right now.

22 MS. AMRANE: It goes with where -- an act by
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1 Congress.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

3 MS. AMRANE: Congress says much meet that

4 level.

5 MR. WHITWELL: All right. All right.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

7 MR. WHITWELL: All right.

8 MR. FLY: So the basic model and the

9 individual model number, those are defined by us?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yep.

11 MR. FLY: And . . .

12 MS. BARHYDT: So individual model number is

13 whatever you show to the consumers, and they can have

14 asterisks.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

16 MR. FLY: Okay.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Basic model number, we have

18 some people who basically use the first five digits of

19 their individual model number. We have some people who

20 just make up something entirely different. But it's

21 something for your internal tracking so that you know

22 which things you have grouped together.
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1 MR. FLY: It's the packing of the individual

2 model to the basic model that we call --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

4 MR. FLY: -- that we are going to serve by

5 the units, say energy efficiency.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

7 MR. FLY: Now, some of -- I mean, I have

8 products that have 100 characters in my model number.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Mmm-hmm.

10 MR. FLY: Can I truncate that, as long as I

11 have covered an amount --

12 MS. BARHYDT: Like after some point it's just

13 all asterisks?

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

15 MR. FLY: Well, or can you accept any length

16 field in there? I guess that's my question.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, yeah. We can take anything.

18 MR. FLY: Okay.

19 MS. BARHYDT: No. Seriously. If it will fit

20 in the Excel cell, it will work. I don't know what

21 Excel's character limit is. I don't know Excel.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: It's big. I was going to say
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1 it's pretty long.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Within the cell, yeah.

3 MALE SPEAKER: It's at least 256, so. . .

4 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

6 MR. FLY: That's all right. I just wanted to

7 clarification. But it could be all asterisk at some

8 point?

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

11 MR. AMRANE: That's right. Could be all

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

13 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we do have people who,

14 after some point, it's just all asterisks, and they

15 just put a couple of asterisk at the end. I mean, at

16 that point we can figure it out as well. The key is

17 that, both for us, for other interested parties which

18 might potentially be consumers --

19 MR. FLY: But you could map it for --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Well, looking at it, if you can

21 look at it and you can look at your product catalog and

22 say, oh, this is a certification for that; we are good.
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1 MR. KLEISS: Yeah. Similar to what we do

2 with identifying a basic model number, is there already

3 a provision, or will there be provision for identifying

4 what AEDM you would be using?

5 MS. BARHYDT: So that's one of the things --

6 so these are our basic requirements. The way we have

7 talked about AEDMs, I think we are going to want you to

8 say I used AEDM Alligator and AEDM Bear.

9 MR. KLEISS: Right.

10 MS. BARHYDT: But, that is not something that

11 we have in our regulations right now. That would be

12 something different.

13 MR. FLY: Could I use that last field for

14 that and put zero in, if you ask it for something?

15 MS. BARHYDT: I would think that you could

16 actually identify the AEDM in that field, but I would

17 have to double-check with the programmers on how they

18 have done that field. Because in the past, it's been a

19 Y or an N, yes or no; it was an AEDM or not.

20 MR. FLY: Okay.

21 MR. BAUMAN: These fields, are these by

22 default public, or can somebody claim that some of this
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1 stuff is -- or, I don't even know if you have to claim

2 or just submit it as private versus public?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Not all of this is public.

4 MR. BAUMAN: But some of it is automatically?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Some of it is, but not all of

6 it.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Private label, I think you

8 already said was not.

9 MS. BARHYDT: The U.S. Customs and Border

10 Protection Number may not be FOIA-able. We have not

11 historically released manufacturer name and address,

12 although we may hear opposing views in this area.

13 MR. BALLO: I think you would.

14 MR. EISNER: Would anybody at the table have

15 a problem with a release of any of the information on

16 this table?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it a person's name and the

18 manufacturer, or is it just the manufacturer's name and

19 the street address?

20 MS. BARHYDT: It's just the manufacturer's

21 name and street address.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Private label or is not
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1 published; correct?

2 MR. RIVEST: Other way around.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Other way around. We would

4 tell who the private labeler was and not the OEM.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Not the manufacturer. Okay.

6 MR. EISNER: Would release of this

7 information be a problem for any of you?

8 MS. BARHYDT: Does that matter? Can we

9 release manufacturer and private labeler and brand?

10 MR. MYERS: Not the manufacturer, but the

11 private label.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

13 MR. MYERS: If they want to represent

14 themselves as someone who produces products or has

15 products, they don't want to say, you know, I got it

16 from so-and-so.

17 MR. BALLO: Let me give an example of where

18 this has been important to us. I don't think it would

19 come for commercial products, but for residential

20 products, we have sent people out to stores looking to

21 make sure that there are energy guide labels on things.

22 We found -- especially initially -- a widespread non-
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1 compliance with the labeling requirements, and to trace

2 that back to the source of the problem. Is it the

3 retailer? Is it the manufacturer? It's helpful to

4 know who really built that product and should have

5 slapped a label on it. So that's part of the reason I

6 think we wanted the ability to find out who

7 manufactured the product, obviously for commercial.

8 MR. MYERS: Yeah. That's a little -- you are

9 right -- commercial is different. But even for

10 residential, that manufacturer is -- whoever is

11 manufacturing that equipment is not in compliance with

12 the DOE requirements. And, if you relay that

13 information to the DOE, they would either --

14 MR. EISNER: Well FTC --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Well that's FTC.

16 MR. MYERS: Well, as they say, it depends on

17 who the manufacturer was.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

19 MS. JAKOBS: But there's an option. You can

20 have the private label on the energy guide label or the

21 manufacturer. It's an option. So if it's optional and

22 someone chose not to do that, then they would -- they
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1 have a reason.

2 MR. WHITWELL: You know, once you go after

3 whoever is selling the brand --

4 MS. JAKOBS: The nameplate doesn't always

5 have the OEM.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: I think the name -- I think it

7 would.

8 MS. JAKOBS: I don't think it does either.

9 MS. BARHYDT: No.

10 MR. HON: You can plain label it with someone

11 else's nameplate.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

13 MR. MYERS: In answer to your question, I

14 would say we probably -- I personally don't have a

15 problem, but we probably should just take the list and

16 look at it and have discussions, and come back with a

17 more solid answer.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. I want --

19 MR. MYERS: We have had customers before who

20 would use plain labels for them we had a contractual

21 obligation not to disclose. So I would say that that's

22 part of the risk factor. It would not bother us right
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1 now, but it could come back up.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Right. Okay.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

4 MR. SACHS: I think that my interest in this

5 is a slightly different take from Tim's, and he's the

6 lawyer, but my interest is knowing who's responsible?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

8 MR. SACHS: And, to some extent, that depends

9 on the contractual relationships. And if Sears is

10 taking responsibility for the product, I don't care --

11 I have no reason to know whether it was made by Goodman

12 or Trane.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

14 MR. SACHS: If Sears is just selling that

15 unit in their store, then I want to know who to

16 complain to, if the label is missing or the thing

17 spills its guts the first day I use it. I look at it -

18 - Tim, is that satisfactory you -- wanting to know who

19 is responsible for the product.

20 MR. BALLO: Yeah. I mean, part of it was we

21 didn't want to have to sue people to find out who is

22 responsible.
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1 MR. SACHS: Yeah. So if we look at that as

2 being disclosure of the responsible party --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Under our regulations the

4 responsible party is the manufacturer.

5 MR. SACHS: Well, there's already some funny

6 stuff about that, and there is a fair amount of

7 contract manufacturing, particularly for niche

8 products.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

10 MR. SACHS: It's specified by somebody, but

11 assembled by somebody else completely. Who's the

12 manufacturer?

13 MS. BARHYDT: When we talked earlier about

14 the possibility of one person designing it but handing

15 it or selling it or somehow transferring those designs

16 to someone else, and having it come off the second

17 person's assembly line, we talked about it's the person

18 whose assembly line it's coming off of that --

19 MR. SACHS: Mmm-hmm. In that case the --

20 MS. BARHYDT: -- that is the person

21 responsible.

22 MR. SACHS: Because in that case that person
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1 owns the intellectual property. That second person who

2 bought it bought the intellectual property, the

3 machinery, whatever.

4 MS. BARHYDT: They bought the whole kit and

5 caboodle.

6 MR. HON: A question for you about it. What

7 happens if it's just a manufacturer? We send some

8 drawings to someone else to build; they don't have any

9 idea of the design criteria other than what we spell

10 out.

11 MS. BARHYDT: So --

12 MR. HON: We are the designer and truly the

13 one who would dictate the efficiency by component

14 specification, yet they would be putting it together.

15 MR. JOHNSON: But your name is on it.

16 MR. HON: It would be our -- you know, it

17 would be under our own name.

18 MS. BARHYDT: They just become a contract

19 manufacturer. Exactly.

20 MR. HON: That's been a lot in the motor

21 business.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.
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1 MR. JOHNSON: To me, whoever's name is on the

2 equipment, that's who's responsible. And that's the

3 way we would want it if we put a name on a piece of

4 equipment, even if it's not manufactured by us. We

5 want the customers to come back to us. That's the way

6 we would view that.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So you are saying that, for

8 Harvey and Tim, the person who's responsible is the

9 private labeler?

10 MR. SACHS: Yes.

11 MS. BARHYDT: From your perspective?

12 MR. SACHS: From my perspective, it would be.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think it depends on

15 what it is. Like, if it's the energy guide tag being

16 on it, certainly yes. But, if it's --

17 MR. MYERS: You see I'm not familiar with

18 energy tags. I don't get into that.

19 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, it's -- yeah -- but, I

20 mean, if it's ensuring that every single unit they

21 build is complying with the requirements, we don't have

22 people in their factory making sure that they are doing
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1 that; so I think in that case it's the manufacturer.

2 Now we will do whatever we can to make sure that the

3 product is good, but in the end, I think we would want

4 the manufacturer to be doing the certification, if we

5 were in a situation where we were private labeling.

6 MR. MYERS: Yeah. I agree with you

7 completely. Our company has a customer that is a

8 marketing company, and they don't want anyone to know

9 that we are building their property. We build it lock,

10 stock -- we engineer it. We design it. We do all the

11 certification. We do everything. We are the

12 responsible party for everything there is to do with

13 that. They just take it and sell it. And they wouldn't

14 want to -- and don't have the facilities or the

15 capability to take on any responsibility for that. For

16 them, it's just a buy/sell, but they want to have some

17 identity. And they may, at some point in the future,

18 build a manufacturing facility and build their own

19 products, so they don't want that discontinuity. So

20 that's why I say we really have to think this through.

21 MR. EISNER: In a situation like that, isn't

22 the potential responsibility/liability handled by a
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1 contract between the original equipment manufacturer

2 and the private labeler? I mean, is this an issue for

3 DOE to have --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: We don't usually, but you know

5 some of these are supplier relationships, and so I'm

6 not sure how much of a contract. I don't know. I'd

7 have to ask. I don't know that they are all covered by

8 a pure, out and out legal contract. Some are supplier

9 relationships.

10 MR. MYERS: Right. In the example I was

11 giving, there is a very specific well-defined contract

12 that states we are responsible for all of that support.

13 We even -- if somebody needs customer service, it's the

14 same people in our facility that man the calls, but

15 there's a telephone number that is different. So they

16 call in on that telephone number. The operator gives

17 that company's name and brought it to our people. I

18 mean we do everything. And it's spelled out in the

19 contract. But they don't all have to be like that.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. I just -- I'm not an

21 expert on all those contracts. I'd have to ask. I

22 really don't --
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1 MR. EISNER: Or for what purpose do you want

2 that name?

3 MS BARHYDT: So, for us, the manufacturer

4 name is important because the statute makes the

5 manufacturer responsible for the compliance of the

6 product. But the private labeler is also important

7 because the statute actually makes the private labeler

8 responsible as well. And so we want to know who the

9 manufacturer is, as well as who the private labeler is.

10 We do not require private labelers to certify

11 compliance. We make it incumbent on the manufacturer

12 to file the paperwork on behalf of their private

13 labelers basically.

14 MR. EISNER: And did Congress in any way

15 indicate that they wanted the information to remain

16 private or secret? So you might have to divulge both

17 of these under FOIA.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Although FOIA exemption four,

19 to the extent that that relationship is contractually

20 confidential business information, we can protect that.

21 MR. EISNER: All right. I don't want to get

22 too much into the weeds, but how can you make it
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1 confidential business information, if Congress requires

2 that it be provided to you? Why is it confidential

3 business information?

4 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure I understand the

5 question.

6 MR. EISNER: Confidential business is a FOIA

7 term.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

9 MR. EISNER: Congress has mandated that you

10 collect that information, and no way indicated it was

11 private. So aren't they overriding?

12 MS. BARHYDT: Right, but that doesn't waive

13 the exemption four.

14 MR. EISNER: Pardon?

15 MS. BARHYDT: That doesn't waive exemption

16 four.

17 MR. EISNER: I'm not quite sure how a name

18 can be confidential business information.

19 MS. BARHYDT: It's the relationship between

20 the manufacturer and the private labeler.

21 MR. MYERS: Could I ask a quick question

22 since we are right at 3:00 o'clock and already
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1 beginning to lose some people? Are we -- is everything

2 square for us to make reservations and rooms and that

3 sort of thing or the next two meetings, the next three

4 meetings, non- refundable?

5 MR. DOPPEL: Do we know where the next meeting

6 is going to be?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

8 MR. EISNER: All the remaining meetings are

9 DOE.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, yeah. We got -- we

11 have a notice drafted that's going to get published

12 here in the next couple years.

13 MR. DOPPEL: Is there a back door you can let

14 us in?

15 MS. BARHYDT: No. They closed all the other

16 entrances as a result of sequestration.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So

18 MR. EISNER: The question about the July 18?

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: July 1st and --

20 MS. BARHYDT: All the employee entrances are

21 closed.

22 MR. EISNER: August 7 and July 18 were
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1 question marked.

2 MR. SACHS: 950 L'Enfant Plaza -- is that

3 DOE's?

4 MR. EISNER: Everything else was DOE on the

5 calendar I have.

6 MS. BARHYDT: No. It's pretty much the same,

7 security screening. You have to go through the full

8 metal detector, everything.

9 MR. HURST: It has so much confidential

10 information about ERE.

11 MS. BARHYDT: They are not the only ones in

12 that building.

13 MR. AMRANE: I mean, if you like the HOI

14 room, and if it's available, we can have the meeting

15 here. But that's up to you.

16 MS. BARHYDT: I appreciate that. I think

17 they have already got it all reserved.

18 MR. SACHS: So we are being thrown back to an

19 as needed back-up basis? It shows the respect DOE has

20 for employees.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh.

22 MR. EISNER: At least we've got Walter over
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1 there.

2 MR. AMRANE: Yes, you have Walter. You have

3 coffee?

4 MR. SACHS: Well, we are struggling in our

5 profit.

6 MR. EISNER: Guys, here are the buildings.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So June 1st and 2nd, 8E-089

8 DOE building, Forrestal Building. July 17th and 18th

9 8E-089, the first day, GH-035 the second day.

10 MR. MYERS: Are those in the same building?

11 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, it's all in Forrestal.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the ground floor is next

13 to the Dunkin Donuts over there.

14 MR. SACHS: We might as well have our

15 meetings in the line, then.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: July 31st and August 1st, 8E17 809. August 7 and 8. August 7th is still a TBD on the

18 room, but August 8 is confirmed at DOE 8E-809. And the

19 same with August 25th and 27th, 8E-809.

20 MR. MYERS: What was that -- the date you

21 just said?

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: The 26th and 27th of August.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: 27th.

2 MR. BAUMAN: That is or will be updated on

3 the SharePoint or --

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. We'll put out a --

5 actually this has to go in the Federal Register Notice

6 with the dates.

7 MR. BAUMAN: I gotcha.

8 MR. MYERS: There was not a 21st and 22nd?

9 MR. EISNER: August -- no meeting on August

10 21st and 22nd.

11 MR. MYERS: Okay.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Did you have a 27th?

13 MR. BAUMAN: Thanks for hosting today,

14 Frank.

15 MR. MYERS: Sure.

16 MR. BAUMAN: Thank you.

17 MR. EISNER: Anytime. So the argument is

18 that divulging the name of a private labeler would --

19 or competitive information would hurt them?

20 MS. BARHYDT: No. Divulging the name of the

21 manufacturer would divulge confidential information.

22 The statute actually defines private labeler as a party
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1 who - actually, let me look at this.

2 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. Do you want this

3 on record?

4 MS. BARHYDT: Hmm?

5 COURT REPORTER: Do you want this on record?

6 MS. BARHYDT: No. You can close it.

7 MR. EISNER: Sorry.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Adjourned.

9 (Whereupon, at 3:05 p.m., the Appliance

10 Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory

11 Committee Meeting was adjourned.)

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
Capital Reporting Company 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 

3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

10 interest in this proceeding. 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

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tJ c..keLNATALIA THOMAS :f~~ 

Digital Court Reporter 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 

294 
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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 I, WENDY SARDINA, hereby certify that I am 

3 not the Court Reporter who reported the following 

4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 

5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

8 proceeding. 

9 

10 

11 La (1;/(=$ 

Date 

12 

13 

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22 

WENDY SARtJINA 

Transcriptionist 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 

295 
Capital Reporting Company 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not 

3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 

4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 

5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

8 proceeding. 

9 

10 

11 

12 ~ l \g ( ~ Dat e 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

SARACH VEACH 

Transcriptionist 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 

296 
Capital Reporting Company 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 I, LISA SIKES, hereby certify that I am not 

3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 

4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 

5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

8 proceeding. 

9 

10 

11 

12 :J~ \;3 

Date 

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LISA SIKES 

Transcriptionist 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 

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10 37:12 108:20

112:7

100 37:8 103:18

106:6 274:8

10-minute 109:13

10-ton 104:12

11 1:11

11:30 109:22

110:1,2,4,7,8,10,

11,12

11:33 161:1

11:45 110:5

12 109:14

12:00 109:17

12:30 160:22

125 111:19

112:6,7,15

13 109:14 141:5

14 131:10 134:16

135:8 136:2,16

15 116:11

1500 183:1,9,20

16 131:10

135:8,9,12,13,14

,16 136:16

17 138:19,21

175 77:16

17th 291:8

18 289:18,22

18th 291:8

1970s 31:21

1st 94:16 289:19

291:7,16

2

20 38:2 69:1 74:15

82:22 83:5 92:20

104:11 105:3

108:22 115:8

154:5

2013 1:11

2015 207:16

20-ton 78:20

210/240 203:13

2111 1:7

21st 292:8,10

22nd 292:8,10

23 52:9

24 146:20 149:6

152:17

25 82:3 83:6

103:20,22 106:5

152:18,19

161:10

256 275:3

25th 291:19

26 153:2

26th 241:8 291:22

27th 291:19,22

292:1,12

28 158:2

29 158:2

2-horsepower 38:3

2nd 291:7

3

3 18:22 19:2 74:12

96:11 97:4

140:21 141:3

145:10,11

146:2,3,6,9,10,1

4,15

3:00 109:19 242:9

288:22

3:05 293:9

30 72:15 73:12

175:18 260:5

300 77:11

78:19,20,21

86:18,19 147:6

184:7

31 131:10 134:17

136:3

31-inch 136:20

137:1

31st 291:16

34 175:19

35 14:10,12,21

74:22 75:2

364.60-type 52:19

4

4 73:9,12

40 93:6,13

42

135:8,9,12,13,16

,17 136:16

429.12 262:11

429.14 262:13

429.54 262:14

431 226:14,20

431.66 228:19

229:15

45 74:22 75:2

471 227:3

5

5 37:13 73:9,12

82:2,11 175:18

50 37:12 93:5,13

106:5 180:16

500 1:8 112:8

114:16

500,000 78:7

505 82:13

555 121:17 124:7

555S 124:7

555S-rated 121:17

5-ton 78:21

6

6 44:17,19 45:6

73:12

60 180:16

60-foot 122:2

62.1 44:21 45:13

63 74:12 92:21

93:8

63-ton 108:22

65 82:13

196:17,18,19,22

197:11,13

65,000 196:9

203:10,12

66 226:14,20

7

7 44:17 45:6,17

289:22 291:17

70s 32:2

75 37:8 106:5

760 196:9
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7th 291:17

8

8 44:19,20,22

45:1,7,14,17

47:4 145:22

146:4,5

291:17,18

8:11 1:12

8067 9:3 60:19

809 291:17

8E 291:16

8E-089 291:7,9

8E-809 291:18,19

9

90 103:22 223:21

224:3

90.1 22:10,13 63:2

65:11 77:9

90's 224:1

950 290:2

9500 16:12

97-98 37:7

97s 36:19

98s 36:19

A

a.m 1:12 161:1

AAON 2:14 10:6

63:4

ability 10:13 19:7

69:22 244:5

247:22 279:6

able 13:9 20:14

41:6 53:10 71:5

105:2 123:14

173:11,14

186:18 205:18

208:22 209:8

213:21 221:4

245:6 247:1

253:15 254:5

256:19

absolute 213:2

269:4

absolutely 11:14

33:11,15 112:13

200:2 259:21

absorption 229:6

accept 167:21

219:16 274:15

acceptable 98:6

125:13 229:16

accepted 225:8

access 115:13

240:3

accessing 262:7

accessories 134:6

149:16 150:4

151:10,15

199:4,6,9 237:17

accessory 134:9,13

136:5,9 141:7,14

accommodate

61:3

accomplish 259:7

accordance 222:18

according 121:4

164:13 202:9

accordingly 35:18

account 37:4

38:19 67:18

accuracy 221:8,11

accurate 35:4

250:3 263:21

294:7

achieve 13:16,19

14:11,17 36:22

37:21 259:11

271:7,10

achieves 15:5

achieving 15:1

acquired 222:14

acquiring 39:12

across 20:13

211:18 267:17

act 115:15 265:19

272:22

action 247:16

activate 125:19

158:1

activating 126:3

activation 125:20

active 81:17 256:4

258:1

acts 16:6

actual 35:14

80:5,16

actually 6:14

7:3,19 9:10

14:13,20 18:11

21:16 28:12

43:14 46:1,14

57:3 80:12 85:22

99:18 107:21

115:13 116:15

118:14 125:3,19

131:1,9 192:8

203:9 205:17

211:2,21,22

212:5 228:13

231:4 233:7

238:18 253:8

258:7,10 262:7

263:22 265:10

267:2 268:11

271:10 272:14

276:16 287:7

292:5,22 293:1

actuator 122:3

adapting 69:19

add 21:2 73:9

99:13 111:11

127:14,15 128:7

130:4 138:19

149:6 179:9

183:2 202:6

203:5 236:8,10

251:22 254:15

261:3 263:15

added 53:22

77:13,14 97:12

125:15 143:20

146:6 158:10

162:3 178:6

179:9 205:10

250:11

adding 63:9 119:2

137:12 257:13

addition 204:14

227:2

additional 21:21

22:1 24:5 57:22

62:10 77:13,14

125:14 172:5

196:5 246:15,17

add-on 165:16

238:6

add-ons 237:11

address 25:14 27:7

42:4 48:13 60:13

91:15 95:1,3,6

130:1 172:10

206:12 209:6
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277:11,19,21

addressed 41:11

93:20 97:14

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253:16

addressing 33:9

97:8 205:1

adds 12:19 73:5

ADEM 221:3

adjacent 52:3

adjourned

293:8,11

adjudicatory

223:16

adjust 18:19 81:9

98:14 176:8

administrative

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adopted 117:7

adopting 20:9

Advisory 1:4

293:10

advocating 224:18

AEDM 205:22

206:6

216:1,2,3,10,11,

13 218:2,6,12

219:8,11,22

220:8,9,18,20

222:1,16 223:4

231:13 232:19

241:1,4,17

242:12 243:8,9

250:11 254:5

269:5,21

270:3,11

276:4,8,16,19

AEDMs 232:9,10

241:16 268:18

276:7

affect 97:13 157:8

190:22 191:11

208:5 226:8

affected 236:1

afternoon 147:11

against 11:17

51:10 254:9

agency 33:18,20

249:1,8

aging 74:9

ago 69:16 170:9

216:20 218:14

232:8 247:21

agonizing 5:18

agreed 92:1

241:12

242:13,19,20

254:21

agreement 177:14

179:6 256:19,22

258:19 259:1

Ah 147:19

ahead 58:6

130:8,15 136:10

163:17 233:3

237:13 243:17

256:11 266:15

AHRI 42:21

105:22 106:1

149:14 190:1

202:13 219:2

262:2 268:5,13

AHRI's 105:20

AIA 14:10

aid 154:22

ain't 139:19

air 7:21 9:9 15:13

22:21 25:22 41:9

49:17 57:18,22

58:2,3 60:18

61:1,22 65:9

67:1,4,13 68:19

81:20 83:14,19

84:2,3,8

86:12,22

87:1,5,18 88:7

89:17

90:8,9,14,21

91:10,15 92:3

93:3,12 94:10

95:4,7,10,15,16

99:9 102:2,4

110:22

111:15,17 113:8

121:11,15

126:21,22

127:1,5,6 134:3

137:12,15,16

139:14 140:18

143:8 144:19

148:8,9,10 150:3

158:20 164:19

166:17 169:19

170:12 179:17

180:12 181:1,3,9

183:15,16

186:15 187:5,9

195:1,16 200:14

203:5,7 226:21

228:12

Air-Conditioning

1:6 2:6,9 3:11

air-cooled

51:15,17 52:9

airflow 145:20

166:18,20,22

Air-moving 25:21

airstream 58:5

algorithm 168:17

Alligator 276:8

allotted 249:15,18

allow 10:3 72:3

83:18 170:9

193:14,15 206:4

207:16

208:10,14

209:19 262:1,2

allowable 68:9

allowed 98:19

207:1 210:9

allowing 21:19

22:4,6 83:20

86:13 227:14

allows 168:9 211:1

alone 256:21

already 7:13 21:19

22:6 36:18,20

37:3 38:20 40:13

41:18 48:7 66:10

84:15 88:18

93:20 94:22

95:12 110:2

125:21 127:22

128:8 176:21

205:11 210:18

222:13 224:1

268:4,5 276:2

277:8 282:5

288:22 290:17

alternate 222:4

229:16,17

alternative 9:6

32:1 35:19 67:9

119:18 128:6

167:1 181:20

aluminum 166:12

am 16:9 33:13
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224:18 230:2

231:15 233:14

294:7 295:2

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226:21

ameliorable 9:3

amended 269:18

amendment 4:19

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Americans 115:14

among 100:21

amount 26:3 77:15

91:10 101:6

114:2 165:2

217:2 218:22

274:11 282:6

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22:15,19

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39:6,10,12 44:21

47:3,7 56:21

57:2,5 61:7

66:17,22

67:3,7,10,14

75:22

76:4,7,13,22

97:7 103:11

118:11,15

128:14,17,21

129:1

130:10,13,17,21

131:2,11,14,17

132:4,10,15,21

133:14,20 134:1

135:6,10,13

142:19 143:10

144:15 145:21

146:3,5,8,10,13,

15,21 147:3,6

149:1,8

152:6,9,16,18

153:12,18,21

170:15,17,22

171:5

172:2,6,8,17

173:4 174:16

175:20,22

176:4,8,14,18

177:2 181:6,11

182:2,4,7,11,13,

18

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184:2,6,8,14,18,

20 185:1,8,17

186:3,6,8,22

187:12,16

188:10,14

189:4,9,12,16,19

,22 190:4,7

191:10,22

195:1,6,21

196:17

198:19,22 199:2

201:1,5 204:5

207:7,9,12,18

215:14

216:8,12,16

217:4,15

220:3,9,13

221:1,9 240:3,15

246:20 247:1

271:20 272:2,22

273:3 275:11

290:13 291:2

analysis 18:18

39:10 220:22

223:17

and/or 124:22

annual 169:8

annually 264:4

anodizing 18:10

ANSI 14:13,15,21

answer 34:3 83:11

148:4 156:1

207:5 280:13,17

answers 210:18

anti 19:22

anticipated 236:6

250:7

anti-corrosive

19:11

anybody 74:3

132:8 147:10

223:10 261:16

277:14

anyhow 191:14

192:22 195:6

251:16

anymore 43:9

122:19

anyone 132:11

133:3 148:1

224:21 285:8

anything 6:16

12:13 17:8 29:12

50:17 98:1

126:17 143:20

144:6 148:10,13

160:6 163:20

190:14 195:10

196:5 216:2

235:2 241:11,12

244:1,21 246:19

251:15 254:18

255:9,22

261:8,16 274:17

Anytime 292:17

anyway 266:18

anywhere 60:8

80:6

apart 118:16,19

apartment 50:17

apartment-sized

50:17

apologize 213:22

214:10 239:9

apparent 64:7,9

apparently 42:13

appeal 270:21

Appeals 270:9,22

appeared 205:11

Appliance 1:3

293:9

appliance-grade

168:3

applicable 11:3

34:19 226:10

270:6

application 12:3

15:6 18:3

27:2,15 39:15

50:15 52:5

53:5,20 56:7

60:7 77:19

102:10 104:8

112:12 153:19

158:9 184:16

185:4 187:17

224:22 271:13

applications 32:8

50:16 53:12

74:16 87:10

121:6 140:4

159:18 160:9

applied 53:2 77:21

158:5
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185:8 199:9

208:22 228:19

231:12

applying 37:20

136:4

appreciate 120:6

221:19 227:13

250:3 290:16

apprehension

245:21

approach 31:6

142:9 186:2

approaches 9:6

114:10

appropriate 16:6

31:22 61:15

79:12 121:4

approval 123:17

approve 242:15

249:5

architects 14:10

167:19

architectural

124:6 134:5

area 12:2 59:9

118:6 169:11

178:4 205:10

206:15 226:9,16

231:3,19 277:12

areas 140:9

aren't 52:6 53:15

119:22 150:4

152:4,5 232:14

288:11

argument 31:16

292:17

Aris 3:2 89:15

Arlington 1:9

arranged 47:3

arrangement

262:3

artificially 157:18

ASHRAE 16:12

65:11 77:9

93:7,9 197:5

209:16,17

Asia 52:7,22

aspect 24:19

aspects 72:5

247:12,18

ASRAC 41:8

109:20 241:13

242:12,14,15

243:17 244:3

250:21

assembled 282:11

assembly 49:17

71:13,15 83:16

111:15 121:1

282:17,18

assigned 250:22

associated

100:10,12

assume 166:8

232:21

assuming 48:18

138:12,13 232:7

assumptions 246:4

assurance 165:7

asterisk 275:7,15

asterisks 273:14

274:13 275:14

Atlanta 70:2

147:11

attaching 244:13

attachment 243:11

attenuation 113:3

116:17 117:17

attenuator 14:2

50:7

attenuators 54:1

110:17,19

attitudes 245:14

254:20

August 244:14

246:21

248:5,13,19

256:20 289:22

291:16,17,18,19,

22 292:9

automatic 223:19

automatically

83:16 210:5

277:4

auxiliary 80:6

available 223:10

290:14

average 106:6

avoid 245:2

avoidance 238:10

aware 152:11

222:19

away 9:1 46:16

65:8 101:22

120:2 144:10

162:7 230:10

245:13

awful 54:19

axis 81:1

B

backflow 121:15

background

242:21

back-up 290:19

backwards 193:2

bad 37:17

bag 48:3 84:22

balancing 171:14

ballgame 232:19

Ballo 2:8 267:6

277:13 278:17

281:20

band 111:20

bar 234:13

barely 83:3

BARHARDT

272:14

Barhydt 2:10

19:10,14 20:20

21:7,12,15 22:7

25:12,20 26:2,5

27:6,13,16 28:1

32:22 33:8 34:6

39:18 40:20

41:15,18,22 42:8

46:1,8,14,18,20,

22 47:6,10,22

48:6,12,16,18,22

49:4 57:9,13

58:13 70:10,16

71:4,7,10,18

72:6 83:9,11

85:2,22 86:9

88:19 89:1,15,19

90:3,6 95:2,6,19

97:3,5,18,21

98:3,7,11,21

102:20 110:16

111:1,3,6 112:4

114:10,13 117:9

118:16

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123:10 124:15

125:6,14

126:1,4,11,15,18

,21 127:18,22

128:4

130:8,12,15,20

131:1,4,7,13,16,

21 133:22

134:18 137:9,19

138:8 142:10

144:21

145:13,16

147:2,5,8

148:7,18

149:9,13 150:6,9

152:13 154:2

159:12 161:16

162:14 163:6,13

164:3,7,12,16

165:10,13,15

172:20

173:9,14,18

175:2,15,21

176:2,7,12,17,19

177:7 178:1,3,19

179:7 180:4,6

181:10,14,22

182:3,5 183:18

188:13

189:7,15,17,21

190:3 192:5

195:7,10,12

198:14,16,21

199:1,5,10,15

202:22 203:8,18

204:2,7,10,17

205:2,6,14,17,20

206:17 207:3,13

208:10,16 209:2

210:15,19,22

211:16

212:8,12,16,21

213:2,9,13,16,19

214:2,9,16,18

216:6,11,15

217:22

219:5,9,12,18,21

220:6,10,16

221:15,19

222:10,16,21

223:6,11,22

224:9,14,18

225:3,9,13

226:12 227:15

228:5,22

229:8,12,21

230:5,12,18,20

231:7,9,16,21

232:18

233:2,6,13,15

234:5,9,14,16,19

236:5 237:13

238:13,21

239:4,6,16,20

240:1,5,10,22

241:3,6,9,15,19

242:1 246:9,22

247:4,9 251:19

252:14,20

253:2,5,22 258:9

261:20 264:13

266:16,20

267:5,7,12,18,21

268:3,7,9,15

270:17 271:6,9

272:4,10,20

273:10,12,17

274:3,6,9,12,17,

19

275:4,10,13,20

276:5,10,15

277:3,5,9,20

278:3,8,12

279:15,18

280:9,12,18

281:2,7

282:3,9,13,20

283:4,11,18,22

284:7,11,13

287:3,18

288:4,8,12,15,19

289:15,20

290:6,11,16,21

291:11 292:1,20

293:4,6,8

barometric 15:13

83:13,15 84:9

85:19 86:1 87:4

88:4,15 187:4

barred 186:5

barrier 144:3

Bart 187:6

base 149:14

baseball 189:1

based 18:22 35:14

56:13 78:16

151:18 205:22

211:19 219:1

220:17 231:1,2

246:5 247:19

250:2 254:16

270:1,7,8,10,15

basic 4:19 25:15

42:14 44:5 65:3

72:22 120:4

135:5 139:18

142:13 144:9

164:21 165:5

176:21 177:21

178:1,3,5,7

182:21 183:20

189:8 191:13

192:4

198:3,16,17

202:1,7,8 203:6

204:3

205:18,20,21

206:1,8,19 207:2

208:1

211:9,15,17

212:8,11,22

214:2

215:5,18,22

216:4 217:19,20

219:2 220:4,10

225:20 226:1

227:22

231:10,14

232:12

235:19,20

238:16 242:2

246:8 247:5,8

252:10 262:12

264:3 265:5

268:22

269:15,16

270:12 273:8,17

274:2 276:2,6

basically 10:8

37:18 60:17

61:21 62:22

66:18 81:2,7

84:10 90:10 93:7

103:15 123:8

124:5 144:2,10

149:2,3 165:21

166:15 179:15

212:3 215:3

218:9,11 220:4

263:14 266:6,13

269:17 273:18

287:13

basis 77:12 79:2

271:14 290:19

basket 66:9

baskets 82:13

bat 189:1

Bates 258:11

bathroom 228:11

Bauman 2:9

210:11,13

212:18,22

213:8,10,14,18
Capital Reporting Company

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214:8,10,17

220:8 229:19

230:17 231:22

232:21

234:15,18

249:11 250:2

255:4 258:12,17

276:21 277:4

292:2,7,13,16

Bear 276:8

beat 251:7

become 30:8

117:10,12

283:18

becomes 37:17

238:10

becoming 118:1

217:12

Beever 58:8

beg 236:9

begin 242:17

259:4

beginning 193:4

243:10 289:1

behalf 262:1,18

287:12

behaving 107:8

behind 39:12 58:4

157:9 243:20

believe 152:3

173:12,16

181:12 187:12

191:18 221:1

235:15 248:7,9

249:6 251:4

252:4 255:1

267:12 271:1

belongs 62:10

belt 47:5

benefit 64:3,5

78:15 103:9,13

172:5 181:4

Benefits 168:10

best 9:3 69:12

98:10 112:7

257:18 263:20

better 16:12,21

22:3 46:14 47:8

70:3 80:19 104:3

105:8 112:8

116:19 121:13

124:3 156:17

168:11,12

194:16 197:4

209:4 211:3

215:8 259:19

beverages 235:9

beyond 251:4

bigger 10:9 55:16

67:20 69:7 76:11

81:18,19 85:18

93:4 114:14

119:3 237:21

bit 29:5 30:11

39:16 49:14 50:1

72:5 77:2 97:9

102:9 104:6

130:6 150:2

151:19 155:13

156:9,16 176:8

177:12 182:19

185:19 187:17

192:8 194:10

242:20 248:13

257:10

blade 54:5

blah 192:20

blanket 9:22

bleeding

101:8,17,18

blenders

126:21,22

bless 96:8

blow 65:8 78:1

87:5 186:16

blower 75:7,9

blowers 9:17

70:13 71:12

186:14

Blvd 1:7

board 72:4 115:13

148:12

Bob 180:10

boiler 65:13 148:2

160:10 222:13

boilers 191:3

bolt 249:12

bolted 186:7

boom 106:8

Border 270:5

277:9

borrow 184:4

boss 123:3

bother 280:22

bottom 69:11,12

186:16

bought 283:2,4

box 68:21

69:9,10,11,13

178:4 187:15,20

206:22

brand 265:2,5

269:13 278:9

280:3

branded 269:13

break 72:1

109:14,16

110:4,5,8,10

160:18 204:20

239:5,7

240:16,19

242:4,8,10

breaker 69:13

breakpoint 46:12

brethren 63:7

BRF 198:16

brick 77:19

brief 109:15

242:19

bring 37:6 42:9

63:5 65:9 89:12

95:10 176:10

204:6,13

bringing 236:22

251:17

broad 96:17 97:15

broad/narrow

96:19

broadcast 96:3

223:7

broader 112:17

205:13

brought 21:1 84:7

224:17 286:17

Bruce 211:13

btu 6:12 78:7

147:6

Btu/h 132:7

BTUs 183:1,9,16

184:7

Budweiser 234:15

build 30:14 31:15

74:4 76:18

236:15 283:8
Capital Reporting Company

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284:21 285:9,18

builder 28:22

building 8:15 12:2

16:14,15,17 17:6

27:3 30:14,21

34:9 51:11 64:11

66:14 75:4 80:11

83:21 84:4,11

86:12,15,20

87:3,15 90:9

94:12 111:17

117:2 121:8,21

124:5,6

136:11,12

159:14 160:9

168:10 285:9

290:12 291:8,10

buildings

52:7,14,15 84:5

86:18,21 93:4

112:13 291:6

builds 39:21 68:7

built 52:15 72:14

73:17 136:12

150:20 210:1

229:6 235:6

279:4

built-up 52:20

bullet 251:16

254:19

256:13,15

258:21 261:7

bunch 24:11

32:3,4 119:2

bundled 6:10

burden 218:18

263:13 266:21

burn 125:5

190:15,18

business 74:9

167:13 173:20

193:11 266:8,12

283:21 287:20

288:1,3,6,18

bust 164:2

buy 43:14 48:18

74:1,3 86:2,4

88:21 260:17

buy/sell 285:16

buying 107:17

bypass 68:14,19

96:3 98:14 100:8

107:12 119:14

157:14,17

bypassing 104:1

C

cabinet 113:20

130:3 153:4

206:16 226:17

234:3 237:18

cabinets 188:22

204:12 237:20

cables 203:1

caboodle 283:5

caf 31:5

calculate 231:4

calculation 151:1

calendar 290:5

California 17:7

45:17 63:7 94:14

Canada 191:7,8

capability 22:1,2

189:3 285:15

capable 123:16

178:10

capacities 6:19

69:8

capacitors 5:19

148:8

capacity 34:18

57:20 66:11 72:4

99:1,6,14,19

102:8 106:10

151:13 157:17

158:5 168:10

170:6 176:9

182:20,22

183:7,8 200:10

203:5 265:12,14

Capital 1:18

captivity 132:8

capture 64:2 72:6

77:3 98:21

109:11 193:21

209:10 211:6

captured 209:7

card 33:5

cardboard 84:21

cards 41:21

care 69:22 74:9

193:1 195:7

281:10

careful 97:17

133:9

Carrier 3:15

180:10

case 10:16 16:3

20:22 51:3 56:18

73:16 91:20

94:11 115:19

121:16 129:8

191:3 204:21

209:13 213:2

215:21

230:10,22

231:5,19 263:1

282:19,22 285:1

case-by-case

223:17,20

cases 15:18,19

23:8 50:10 65:14

206:4 213:20

217:5 231:13

232:4,6 233:1

cast 166:13

catalog 275:21

catalogue 148:1

catch 214:1

catching 135:20

category 42:1 69:2

203:22 216:19

217:12 237:9

cause 119:20

226:21 228:3

causes 118:18

cautiously

259:13,17 261:4

ceiling 122:2

162:1,19

ceilings 122:15

cell 274:20 275:2

center 79:13

centers 267:20

central 121:10

cents 157:16

certain 5:3 40:4

65:14 81:13

104:8,9 166:21

252:4

certainly 17:22

98:7 194:22

225:5 245:16

247:10 284:16

certainty 5:2
Capital Reporting Company

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CERTIFICATE

294:1 295:1

296:1 297:1

certification 4:21

31:3 105:21

215:7 238:17

261:21,22

262:8,16,20

263:22 264:7,22

269:18,19

270:6,8,10

275:22 285:4,11

certifications

241:11 270:15

certified 264:3,21

certify 202:4,5

287:10 294:4

295:2 296:2

297:2

cetera 36:21

CFM 26:5 71:21

80:5

CFR 205:11

262:11

chance 46:6 210:1

change

10:11,13,18

13:7,8 24:6

26:11 33:18 44:2

55:18,20

61:3,5,7,9,11

63:17 68:6 76:14

78:11

106:12,14,17

118:11 131:15

134:14,19

137:11 144:6

145:19 159:22

181:17 184:9

197:15

207:8,9,11

209:17 223:18

228:2 232:18

233:4 264:8,10

changed 24:10

25:12,17,19

64:15

changes 30:1

33:21 50:12

107:5 179:2,3

207:16 232:19

233:10 240:4

changing 33:4

62:4 64:1 112:19

chapters 132:2

character 274:21

characteristic

213:12

characteristics

208:5 212:3

226:8

characterize 55:9

58:20 73:19,20

92:3 100:7

124:13

characterized

72:10

characters 274:8

Charles 2:16

Charlie 207:10

209:16 233:18

236:13 237:16

238:5 251:1

chart 10:3 242:19

257:14,15

charts 81:20

chasses

136:8,11,13

check 45:18 71:8

165:22

checking 147:8

270:4

chemical 126:3

chilled 121:11

chimed 143:12

choices 219:8

choose 57:6 72:3

209:13 264:7

chooses 219:10

chopped 217:1

chose 210:20

279:22

chunk 222:12

circle 96:5

circuit 99:12,22

100:2,4

104:11,13

159:11

circuits 105:4

circulation 139:13

circumvent 236:17

237:7

City 140:9,10

claim 13:17 21:2

32:13 208:13

210:21 211:1,9

276:22 277:1

claiming 14:2

claims 17:20 18:2

214:22

clarification 24:3

158:22 181:15

204:14 275:7

clarified 228:2

clarify 84:22 86:5

175:4 226:18

227:21 249:12

clarity 232:16

class 18:18 19:5

51:9 56:16 61:20

62:10,19 63:19

64:18 128:9,12

129:5,17

153:12,15

155:12 212:11

253:4 269:4,9

classes 31:2 63:18

64:20 70:5

211:18,19 212:9

269:6

classifications

211:14

classroom

14:11,12 186:7

clear 15:1 94:14

120:20 214:18

252:11

Cleaver-Brooks

3:3

Climate 218:7

ClimateMaster

165:21

ClimateMasters

3:16

climates 127:2

clipping 239:11

close 101:14 121:1

209:20 210:4,7

259:8 293:6

closed 83:17 100:9

107:11 160:5,9

207:17

289:15,21

closer 100:8

114:19

closest 28:7

closing 107:15
Capital Reporting Company

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CM 114:3

Co 2:19 3:4

Coast 61:13

coated 5:17 17:16

21:6 30:7 146:12

148:9 156:10

158:20

199:16,17

201:10,12,16

252:21

253:3,5,12

coating 18:10 19:1

22:3

code 45:9,11

117:11 155:12

codes 115:11

124:5

coding 126:11,14

coefficient 18:11

coffee 165:8 291:3

cognizant 97:1

coil 7:20,21 17:16

20:13 21:4,6

22:3 57:17

58:3,4

65:5,6,8,22

66:1,2 67:20

68:3,15,20 83:21

98:18,19

101:5,19

124:20,21 148:8

152:20 153:22

157:19

158:3,6,14

159:6,16,17

160:6,7

166:16,17

179:19,20

180:15,18,19,21,

22 198:6 253:2

coils 5:5,16,17

26:22 27:1 30:7

101:10 146:12

148:9 156:11

158:20,21

159:10 161:11

197:15

199:16,17

200:13

201:10,12,16

252:21,22

253:13

Coke 235:9

cold 127:2,5

195:21 226:16

234:4 235:4

collect 269:1

288:10

collision 29:5

color 126:11,13

combination 27:3

30:17,18 31:12

32:3 196:6

197:4,18,19

202:2,9,10,15

combined 241:2

comes 7:8 17:15

28:6 42:20 54:7

91:2 191:14

comfort 168:11

comfortable 60:21

67:4 259:12,16

261:9,18

coming 12:17 14:7

60:19 94:16

102:18 103:3

105:14,15,16

137:15 187:9

206:7 207:8,9

209:18 224:15

228:15 237:8

256:8 258:7

282:18

comment 58:7

156:2 157:12

163:16,19 199:3

225:16,20

comments 140:3

177:10 226:11

227:11,13

232:14 250:3

commerce 29:13

213:5 264:4

commercial

31:11,17 73:6,18

86:21 94:11

190:6,9,10,11,13

191:3,6

195:15,19

196:20 204:9

226:2 269:2,3

278:19 279:7,9

commercials

193:14

committee 1:4

16:13 170:8

241:13 242:13

247:13 248:2

249:2 250:21

252:5 293:11

committees 248:22

common 50:15

52:5,22

117:10,13 121:9

140:4 167:2

182:19 183:4,5,6

community 31:21

companies 170:13

218:16 232:22

237:19

company 1:18

219:10 237:17

285:7,8

company's 286:17

comparable 198:6

200:10

comparably 35:6

compare 265:10

compared 35:5

38:2 217:3

comparing 78:19

comparison 79:2

compensate 77:15

competitive 17:13

292:19

complain 281:16

complete 7:16

98:11 129:20

130:18 229:4

244:14 263:21

295:7 296:7

297:7

completely 27:21

102:11 241:13

282:11 285:7

complex 30:9

compliance 261:22

262:7 279:1,11

287:5,11

compliant 221:18

264:1

complicated 29:3

40:22 247:6

comply 17:6

complying 284:21

component 49:20

88:4 283:13

components 25:13

compressor 9:8
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58:2 73:16

99:1,11,16,19,20

102:8 103:16,21

105:11 139:14

147:14 162:15

168:8,9,12,22

169:1,3,4,9

171:11,15 173:7

179:22 180:17

181:4

compressor-based

147:16

compressors 98:17

102:15 103:1,2

105:4,5,7 107:1

200:10

computer 189:20

concept 22:22

86:15 205:21

conceptually

15:20 206:7

concern 35:2

40:19 120:19

164:21 204:11

220:16 224:3

235:15 251:2

264:14

concerned 33:19

217:10

concerns 98:1

211:14 232:5,7

251:3

concert 87:18

117:2

conclusion 254:18

conclusions

250:19

concur 166:7

condensate 124:22

condensation

208:20 236:4

condenser 6:8

9:1,2 12:2,17

49:10,11,16,17,1

9 50:6,8,22 53:8

55:19,22 65:6

103:17 137:15

138:5,6 148:21

156:11

179:10,14,17,21

181:18 184:16

185:5,11

condensers 11:21

12:16

condensing 139:12

condition 9:3 61:7

62:12,13,15,18

64:6 65:20

66:12,13,20

68:14 83:2 102:7

103:19,21

conditioned 95:16

conditioners 61:22

228:12

conditioning 87:6

195:2,16

conditions 9:18,19

60:18 61:6,9,18

63:13,14,17,22

64:2 106:7 107:8

conference 104:21

confidential

266:7,12 287:20

288:1,2,6,18

290:9 292:21

configuration

149:10

configurations

217:13

confirm 165:22

confirmed 291:18

confuse 8:3

confusing 197:10

246:7

confusion 228:3

236:2

Congress 273:1,3

287:14 288:1,9

connected 226:5,6

227:3

connection 204:16

226:5

conscious 16:10

consensus 176:4

244:18

253:16,18 255:7

256:19 257:2

259:1,11

consenting 78:17

consider 57:7

92:15,16 108:14

114:8 154:7

185:7 237:22

consideration

32:19

considered 51:5

198:2 203:11

235:13 250:22

271:4

considering 51:8

considers 72:22

consistent 56:9

58:12,21 72:12

124:14 191:2

consistently 27:20

console 163:22

167:11

constrained

132:18

constraints 271:14

Consultants 2:15

Consulting 2:3

consume 35:7,8

consumer 264:8

consumers 273:13

275:18

consumes 68:3

consumption

17:14 37:11 38:1

190:22

207:19,21 208:6

212:20

213:1,5,15

215:22 216:10

226:9,14

230:15,16,17,18,

19,21 231:18

235:19 236:17

237:7 238:10

consumptions

213:6

consumptive

211:8 264:9

contact 262:9

context 41:6 228:7

242:20 268:16

continue 246:14

contract 282:7

283:18

286:1,6,8,11,19

contracts 286:21

contractual

280:20 281:9

contractually

287:19

contraption 14:2
Capital Reporting Company

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contribution

256:7

control 87:19

101:4 157:18,21

158:6

168:8,11,17

convenience 87:12

conversation 4:16

5:13,20 10:21

156:16

convert 81:4

cool 66:1 81:20

252:18

cooled 8:8

183:12,13,16

cooler 260:18

coolers 73:15

171:6 191:2

cooling 2:14 8:16

9:11 57:18,20

58:3,4

63:8,12,13 65:14

66:18,19

67:11,12 71:1

72:16 86:14

98:15 102:7

104:1 148:3

155:16 160:10

168:11 176:9

178:11,13

179:17 182:20

200:10 203:4

265:13

cooper 155:5,6

159:16

Coors 234:15

copied 197:7

copper 5:5 148:7

159:16 160:6

168:7 252:22

253:2,6,11,13

COPs 155:16

copy 147:2,3

176:12 182:5

206:13

copying 206:13

cord 226:5 227:2

233:21

cords 234:1 237:5

Corey 3:14 178:6

244:8

Corey's 242:6

corporate-shipped

31:6

Corporation

3:10,15

correct 35:16

38:10 63:11

74:18 76:10

94:20 158:7

167:4 170:12

181:5 186:6

189:11 206:21

231:6 278:1

295:7 296:7

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153:20 155:2

158:21 159:6,9

161:10

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cost 77:2 120:14

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council-type

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couple 4:11 125:16

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222:7 226:11

228:2 232:8

250:14 257:10

275:15 289:12

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229:11

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create 67:18 68:7

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229:16 237:10

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234:1 236:15

285:7 286:13
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customers 30:19

39:4 74:1,2

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customer's 72:2

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day 75:3 77:5

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166:21

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dehumidification
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8:19 26:22 61:22

104:9

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219:14 230:14

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direct 63:7 71:2
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166:20

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directly 11:16

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Capital Reporting Company

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drawings 283:8

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21:8,20 22:5

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28:18,21 31:6

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156:2,5,7

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289:16,20

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33:20

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equipment

17:1,5,13 28:16

31:3 39:15 49:20

51:18

52:17,20,21 53:6

54:19 56:18
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57:21 62:15

68:20 69:7,17,19

71:16 72:14 73:6

74:12,15 77:9

90:9,15 92:19

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193:7 194:1,8,18

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215:2,5 226:7

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ETL 218:22

evaporating 158:2

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68:20 157:19

158:3,6,13

179:19 180:22

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everybody 43:5

64:12 84:19

109:16 125:8

161:3 178:17,20

193:9 221:14

242:7 251:13

257:15,17

258:20,22 262:5

everybody's 179:6

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everyone 15:5

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108:15 117:6

133:12 152:11

214:18 246:15

270:13

everything 5:11

52:11 63:2 72:7

77:3 81:7,9 93:2

96:17 106:5

120:1 138:18

144:13 179:4

206:14 213:9

217:20 239:2

241:13,18 244:7

245:13 255:8,14

257:3 259:19

260:12

285:11,12

286:18 289:1

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168:9 225:21

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239:12 244:13

270:14 271:12

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exchange 169:11

exchanger 6:21

21:22 57:17

58:1,17

excluded 6:12

88:18 120:21

174:2 209:9

excluding 120:18

125:7 128:1

exclusion 129:12

173:10,13,17

exclusively 236:14

excuse 214:8

exempt 5:14,15,17

12:12 85:11

91:17 119:21

167:12

exempted

5:19,20,21 6:6

10:15 85:10

88:18 91:18

107:3,4,6 165:1

174:5,7,9

exemption 9:22

270:15 287:18

288:13,15

exemptions

120:1,3 208:22

210:10 235:21

exhaust 83:14

86:11 87:7,15,16

88:2 89:16,19

90:1,15

existing 221:21

exists 201:2

expanding 232:12

expansion 133:19

242:22

expect 165:1

expectation 112:5

expectations 70:7

expected 248:10
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expecting 168:3

expensive 89:5

167:15 200:3,6

experience 159:14

222:7

experimental

20:18

expert 75:19

286:21

expertise 218:4,5

explain 65:2 178:6

197:16 230:10

explosion 147:12

exposed 168:1

exposing 260:4

exposure 21:5

extend 248:6,16

extended 131:9,10

134:11,15,20

140:1,12

142:2,12 143:13

144:12,19 219:3

240:13

extent 39:3 209:7

210:22 281:8

287:19

exterior 52:3

188:22

external 8:4,6 29:9

30:13 49:17 52:3

55:18 71:14,22

72:15 73:3,10,11

114:2,3 164:8

237:3

extra 7:4 25:5

32:11 60:17 65:5

66:2 87:11 237:5

extrapolation

231:11

extreme 69:20

70:2 73:16

extruded 166:13

eyes 201:16

F

FACILITATOR

2:2

facilities 285:14

facility 82:15

243:7 285:18

286:14

fact 8:21 34:13

42:4 147:16

218:18 244:17

252:1 254:5

factor 18:10 225:7

239:11 280:22

factors 81:17

factory 29:13 32:7

114:4 141:6,9

151:21 284:22

factory-installed

157:1,6

factual 20:15 21:2

242:21

fail 217:19

fair 114:2 165:2

282:6

fairly 69:17 82:7

140:4 271:13

fall 192:21 193:16

231:13

falling 117:4 119:7

falls 41:22

false 103:16

104:13

familiar 180:14

284:17

fan 6:7,8 10:8,9

12:4 15:22 21:10

24:13 25:7

26:15,20 27:5,21

28:9,11,12,17

29:7,20,21 30:17

32:4

49:11,16,19,22

50:6,8,22 54:3,4

55:15 65:17,19

71:13,14,15

72:16

73:4,5,12,15

75:12,14,19

82:19,20 83:3

86:11,16 87:13

89:16,20

90:1,8,10,11,16,

17,21 92:10

118:19 119:3,4

137:13

138:4,5,6,22

139:2,7 143:22

145:19 153:7

180:18 184:16

fans 12:18 25:13

28:17 55:16

87:11 88:8 91:19

fast 218:17

faster 251:9

Father 201:18

faucets 228:10

fault 160:16,17

feature 20:17 21:3

64:3 65:4

features 21:1

125:15 165:3

206:19

Federal 1:4 292:5

293:10

feedback 70:18

214:4

feel 117:1 184:9

245:16 247:21

251:21 259:8

261:9,18

feeling 116:16

256:21 260:17

feelings 179:3

feels 29:4 251:13

feet 77:11 86:18,19

114:16 231:1

FEG 29:21

felt 205:13

fictitious 210:6

field 32:8 81:10

115:19 141:17

149:17 234:1

274:16

276:13,16,18

fields 276:21

figure 11:7 275:16

file 263:14 287:12

files 262:2 267:5

filing 222:22

fill 263:10

filled 52:6

Filling 144:1

filter

23:2,3,4,5,12,13,

15,16,19 25:5

27:9 28:8,21,22

42:15,20 43:5,11

45:22 47:1,12

48:19 96:10

140:21
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filters 23:11,17

24:12 25:6,14

26:9,11,21 34:11

41:10

42:13,16,22

43:9,18 47:20

48:3,9,13,20

141:7

filtration 22:21

43:16,22 44:5

96:5 119:1,5

140:19

144:15,17,19,22

fin 148:7

final 42:3 102:7

245:2 248:18

252:18

finalized 170:10

financial 294:9

fine 23:2 47:13

56:20 60:5 76:14

86:7 110:2 112:1

128:3 180:4

185:17 206:11

254:17 261:14

fingers 166:16

finish 110:21

130:10

finished 177:11

226:1

fire 122:11

123:8,19,22

238:3

fire/smoke

121:7,18 124:4

fire/smoke/

isolation 120:16

firewall 122:12

firm 39:8,13,18

first 49:9 64:15

133:12 157:13

190:16,21

193:19 215:7

220:21 242:11

247:20 253:6

256:18 273:18

281:17 291:9

fit 28:17 57:5

68:21 224:5

274:19

fits 244:7

fittings 149:10,11

150:19

five 41:20 58:20

92:9,11 94:4

109:8 116:11

124:14 136:19

137:2 138:3,4,7

139:3 156:15

175:9 216:14

257:14 273:18

five-ton 115:4

fix 9:21

fixed 11:20 230:22

231:4,19

fixture 124:19

Fixtures 3:6

flagged 57:10

flexible 77:22

flip 210:8

flippant 72:14

floor 52:10,12,13

122:4 162:22

291:12

floors 52:9

flow 98:18 99:9

107:11

flushed 250:6

Fly 2:14 7:11,19

8:1,3,6,21 10:6

12:8 14:13,16

18:2,14

19:4,13,16,19

20:2,4,6

25:1,3,10

26:14,18

28:11,14,16

29:17 30:7,9

33:22 34:7,22

37:6,11,16

38:1,6,9,12,16

40:6 47:16,18

48:11,14 51:20

52:4,21 53:4

54:4,18,22 55:21

56:5 59:13,16

60:8,15 61:9,13

62:3,6,13

63:4,12

64:4,10,22

65:5,19,21

66:6,10,13,21

67:1,5

68:1,12,16,18

69:7 72:8,13,20

73:2,9,14,20,22

74:10,17,21

75:1,8,18,20

76:2 77:22 78:13

80:1,5,10,13,17

82:5,12,19 83:12

84:1 85:16,18

86:17 87:16,21

88:8,12 89:22

90:5,20

91:1,5,9,13,17,2

1

92:1,5,8,11,19,2

2 93:5,8 94:9

95:20 96:19

98:22

99:3,6,16,18,22

100:3,15,17,21

101:21 102:15

103:4,7,10,12,15

104:4,17

105:9,14,16

106:4,10,14,17,2

2 107:17,21

108:8,12 109:6,8

111:5

112:1,10,13

113:10,15,19

114:1,6,14,22

115:6,10,21

116:5,19

117:12,20 118:3

119:6,9,11,18

120:12 121:6,22

122:10 123:2,18

124:11 125:9

126:13,16,19,22

127:15,21 128:2

129:21

134:13,19 135:2

136:5 150:22

151:3,17 152:3

154:1,13,18

155:2 169:17

180:19

183:11,14

188:3,6 196:19

197:1

253:3,14,21

273:8,11,16

274:1,4,7,10,15,

18 275:6,19

276:13,20

flying 147:10

FOIA 287:17,18

288:6

FOIA-able 277:10

folks 133:15
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232:3

foot 78:20,21

forced 205:3

forces 17:13

foregoing 161:2

294:3

foregoing/

attached 295:6

296:6 297:6

forever 215:6

forget 51:14

forgot 203:1

forgotten 239:10

form 179:15

181:19

Forrestal 291:8,11

Forty 93:5

Forty-five 160:19

forward 79:3

251:11

foster

203:18,20,21

four-inch 80:14

fraction 139:3

framework 207:3

267:22

Frank 3:5,11

17:11 18:7 21:1

45:19 143:10

190:14 192:15

258:9 259:18

292:14

free 32:22 41:21

65:7 67:21 77:2

Freedom 265:19

freestanding

162:1

freezing 157:20

158:4,6,14

frenetic 256:5

frequency 6:6

111:20

168:15,21

fresh 15:13 134:3

143:8

friendly 32:17

188:20

front 87:2,5

156:22

234:3,9,12

237:18,20

260:20 267:15

FTC 279:14,15

full 160:20 170:6

171:4,9,11

172:1,21,22

173:3 242:14,15

248:2 250:21

290:7

full-load 171:15

172:16

fully 170:3

function 64:18

68:19 81:8

251:10

functional 208:5

212:2 226:8

functionally 212:5

functions 29:7

fundamental

206:2

fundamentally

211:20

fundamentals

81:4

funny 282:5

furnace 191:3,6

furnaces

190:9,10,11,13

193:15

future 32:19 72:3

201:4 233:10

247:16 285:17

fuzzy 150:2

G

gas 6:12 7:18 25:3

57:15 58:2 98:13

100:8

101:9,13,14,17,1

8 103:17 104:1

110:22 128:6,18

147:15,18,20

148:2 154:19

157:14,17 158:3

179:15,22

181:20

190:15,18

193:10,22

200:11,18,19,21,

22 204:18

228:15 229:7

gas/electric 21:20

gas-fired 21:22

Gathering 89:3

GE 136:2

143:10,12,14

general 65:12

117:16

generally 6:22

17:15 40:6 43:4

58:3 117:20

140:22 183:21

211:4 247:13

250:9

generated 231:2

generating 230:22

generic 228:9

gentleman 204:12

211:12

Geoffrey 2:15

geothermal

160:11,15

germicide 125:21

germicides 125:19

gets 24:9 37:16

60:10 79:12

158:1 219:2

242:8

getting 4:3 59:5

87:1 102:3

119:22 120:12

139:20 159:5

210:10 217:12

232:9 244:11

GH-035 291:9

given 202:20

gives 5:1 65:15

229:9 286:16

giving 272:11,15

286:11

goals 29:5

God 96:8

gone 49:5 66:15,16

176:21 205:9

230:4,5 244:16

251:6

Goodman 281:11

gosh 93:15 149:12

gotcha 292:7

gotten 14:15 38:14
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251:8

governs 227:4

grains 104:9,14

Grand 195:14

granted 270:10

granting 223:19

great 14:22 15:7

98:5 115:2 118:4

244:12 256:7

257:20

greater 49:18

135:14 197:13

224:3 251:11

grill 134:4 161:20

162:2,20

163:4,21

164:8,9,11,22

165:10,14,22

166:9,13 167:8

168:7

grills 163:22

165:1,8 166:6

167:1,14

ground 244:17,18

291:12

group 4:14 34:1

41:7,8 42:6

45:20 88:18

164:5 179:2

194:13

208:11,14 211:7

212:11 215:4,11

217:16 221:12

244:22 255:18

257:22

grouped 192:10,11

209:8 273:22

groups 33:19

246:18

growing 59:3,9

60:1,3 118:2,6

growth 124:21

126:3,5

guards 5:19

188:21

guess 16:2 54:18

55:10 56:20 74:2

88:20 109:4,5

112:1 129:10

139:1 155:4

161:5 164:20

170:5 178:17

180:1 194:22

201:11 214:11

217:15 219:15

220:1 249:11

267:14 274:16

guessing 189:6

207:6

guidance 4:20,22

10:21 11:16

15:14 20:11

40:21 42:5,7,15

44:7 45:22 47:10

guide 278:21

279:20 284:15

guts 281:17

guy 96:8 133:16

174:17

guys 5:2 19:20

20:17 21:11

29:20 61:13

80:19 115:21

122:20 132:1

156:10 158:19

159:2 160:20

162:17 163:18

164:4 179:11

180:5 181:18

193:2 215:3

221:2 255:13

257:7,20

guy's 17:2

Guys 291:6

H

hail 5:19 188:21

half 21:10 56:1,2

83:1,4 170:8

247:21 260:15

half-inch 78:4

hall 117:2

Halley 2:15 221:20

222:6 243:4

262:22

263:4,7,11,17

hallways 168:2

hand 26:18 29:6,8

85:14 88:17 91:8

110:4,5 169:11

handing 282:14

handle 24:13

34:13 94:19

233:22

handled 15:14

118:9 285:22

handling 84:7

handy 198:12

hang 234:3

237:18,19

hanging 237:5

252:9

hangs 234:9

happen 26:8 27:20

75:16 117:3

121:9 127:7

237:11 246:5

happens 21:9

144:8 167:9

248:21 283:7

happier 193:3

255:13

happy 208:15

hard 27:11,17

122:2 129:6

246:3 255:7

257:7

harder 118:20

120:12

hardly 105:10

201:16

Hardware 167:17

harm 217:16

Harvey 3:8 9:7

15:16 33:2 63:19

133:9 142:9

159:12 164:20

188:15 209:12

245:8,12 284:8

hate 63:5

haven't 10:1 103:7

170:3 204:3

215:8 254:8

255:8 259:7

having 4:17 8:17

35:13 50:14

87:22 88:1 94:19

118:19 128:6,12

133:18 164:9

194:4 215:16

226:3,17 230:8

232:8,19 238:12

256:6 264:21

267:16 269:22

270:2 282:16

head 151:6 167:7

249:2

heading 177:20,21

178:6
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hear 42:18,19

47:22 57:11

129:15 156:6

178:2 225:18

229:10

243:18,22 257:8

277:12

heard 60:1 63:16

93:13 108:2,6

117:19 142:6

156:9 210:17

245:12

hearing 257:6

Hearings 270:9,21

heat 3:13

6:11,18,20,21

7:1,2,5 8:22

9:10,12 10:7

18:9,11 20:13

21:22 57:16

58:1,17 62:4

72:16 81:21

96:8,10,16

97:9,13 106:6

128:4,6,11

130:2,3,4,22

131:5 143:5,6,7

147:15,18

148:2,21

149:1,2,3 151:17

152:2 154:13

156:10,14 157:7

160:3 162:1,2

169:11 173:20

176:22 177:3

178:8,10 190:19

203:5 218:8

221:2

heated 179:18

heater 37:17

148:18 153:5

208:21

heaters 153:2

155:10,21

161:11,15

heating 1:6 2:6,14

3:11 6:19 22:1,2

65:15,16 67:2

148:22

178:13,14

heats 57:18

he'd 196:21

Hello 156:6 225:17

help 16:4 17:5

33:18,20 125:20

helped 251:10

helpful 53:9 209:4

279:3

helps 226:18

227:21

hereby 294:3

295:2 296:2

297:2

Hertz 111:19

112:6,7

he's 9:7 156:17

174:17 198:22

205:7,8 211:13

281:5

Hex 2:18

Hey 156:18 177:15

208:15

hidden 79:18

high 19:6 21:4

24:11 26:15

28:20 36:19 40:4

58:2 59:13

70:6,12 72:13,14

82:10 98:16

102:5 109:2

116:14 119:1,5

122:2 127:8

140:9,18

144:18,22

167:14 195:3,5

271:17,18 272:8

high-corrosion

19:5

high-efficiency

19:22 22:21

higher 6:20 9:4

10:9 12:4,7 20:7

34:15 36:22 48:3

49:18 56:13

60:20 67:6 70:7

71:14 76:17

79:16 81:16

141:10 211:10

higher-static 35:8

highest 7:2 28:18

269:4

high-pressure

57:19

high-rise 53:5

86:20

high-static 9:17

26:19 29:16 35:6

71:11 186:14

Hill 232:6

historically 277:11

history 75:22 76:2

hit 120:10 171:22

173:7

Hmm 293:4

HOI 290:13

hold 11:8

holes 144:1

home 203:18,20,21

204:1

homework 39:14

Hon 2:16

207:8,11,15

209:17

210:4,12,17

216:17 217:7

225:7 229:4,11

233:4 236:13

238:5 240:13

241:10,18,21

251:3,6 280:10

283:6,12,16,20

honestly 139:22

honesty 34:21

260:8

hook 151:11

hooked 148:20

Hootman 2:17

10:19

11:1,4,7,12,18

13:10 14:8,14,17

15:3,9 16:8

23:18,21 24:9,17

25:16,21

26:13,17 27:17

28:2,10 29:3,11

30:11 32:1,15

34:21 35:1,10,16

36:9,14,17

37:5,10,15,19

40:10,13,16

43:2,7,10,12

44:9 45:12 47:9

48:2,15,17 49:2

54:15 55:7,15

56:4,8 59:15,18

60:2,5,11 61:15

63:20 64:13,19

65:1 69:1,4

71:19

73:1,8,13,21

74:8,11,19,22

75:2,9,12,19
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79:5,10 80:8,12

85:3,21 87:14,20

88:6,20

89:4,9,14

92:6,9,13,20

93:1,6,9,15,19

94:4,7,13,17

95:5,14 96:12

99:2,5,7,15,17,2

1 100:1,10,16,20

101:1,16

102:13,17

103:1,6 104:5,18

105:13,15,22

106:9,21 107:19

108:5,14,17,19,2

1 113:6,12

114:9,12 115:8

120:14 122:6

123:6,8,12

124:10

125:2,12,18

126:2,7 145:7,11

146:2 148:20

149:12,15,20

150:12,17 151:2

153:1,10,14

154:6,8,16

155:3,6,11,16

156:4,17 158:8

162:6,10,21

163:2,5,8,14,17

165:17,19

167:19 169:1,6,8

171:2,7,13,19

172:3,14

174:3,8,19

185:13,15 189:6

192:10

196:8,11,15,21

197:8,19 199:22

200:4

202:5,12,16

221:10,17

222:3,12,20

223:4,7 241:17

243:13,18,22

260:21 261:6

263:2,5,8,12,18

266:14,19

267:3,10,14,19

268:2,6,8,11

270:14

271:5,8,11,16,18

,22 272:7,17

273:6 274:22

275:5,12

277:7,17,22

278:5 280:6

281:3,13

286:4,20

hope 16:1 255:17

hopefully 105:3

190:1

hoping 232:7

horizontally 122:9

horsepower

37:8,13 38:3

49:19,22 72:1,2

78:16 80:2,22

82:2,3,22 83:5

horses 251:10

hospital 20:10

hospitality

140:5,12

hospitals 122:14

hosting 292:13

hot 57:15 65:22

98:13 100:8

101:9,13,17,18

104:1 110:21

127:6 148:22

157:14,16 158:3

179:15,21,22

181:20

hour 160:19,20

260:15

hours 207:17

house 95:15 117:2

household 228:11

houses 82:16

Houston 70:2

How's 100:5

HRI 170:1,5

HTD 244:2

huge 38:2 73:12

130:6 217:2

228:12

Huh 190:5 196:13

200:5

humid 60:8,22

humidity 8:16

60:20 64:12

hundreds 109:3

hungry 110:1

Hunt 17:10 44:16

60:10 68:13,17

69:3,6 70:20

71:3,6,8

94:14,20

132:19,22

133:4,6

168:19,20

Hurst 2:18 51:7

290:9

hurt 201:1 292:19

hurts 139:14

Hussmann 3:10

HVAC 208:20

269:3

hydraulic 226:22

228:8,20 229:1

hydraulics 206:12

hydronic 6:11

hyper 20:13

I

I'd 21:16 46:16

47:16 70:20

111:11 138:10

165:22 187:2

201:11 225:22

243:4 246:14

249:11 255:19

286:6,21

ID 270:6

idea 9:14 30:12

33:2 63:19

118:14 209:4

234:5 283:9

ideal 35:11 240:11

ideas 242:5

identical 191:16

192:14,19 193:7

194:1,8,17

206:22 207:22

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measurement 35:4

measurements

151:12

mechanical

52:10,12 77:9

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56:10 108:2

138:17 142:1

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59:5,8,11,21

61:17 64:8 65:20

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108:10 113:1

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models 191:13

202:8 206:1

207:22 211:9,15
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217:19 225:20

232:12 246:8

263:15,16

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26:12 27:21

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83:5,7 85:21

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104:3 105:6

119:3 122:3

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25:13 27:5

32:5,11 34:14

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70:13 71:12

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114:15 161:9

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noise 14:11

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nominal 182:20

183:4

194:5,12,15,21

203:4 267:9
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non 225:1 278:22

289:4

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o'clock 288:22

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offering 212:15

213:17,20

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253:10 266:19

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136:9 162:3

165:16 179:9

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279:19,21

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279:21

options 4:17
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6:9,11,12 7:5

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232:2 252:2

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220:19

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ourselves 100:22

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116:17 118:15

119:7 126:22

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overall 20:16

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118:7 154:14

195:15 239:11

packaged 51:5,6

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packages 143:18

packing 274:1

packs 154:20

page 197:7

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parallel 223:2

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226:4,6

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participants 2:5

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104:15 148:13

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120:18 148:11

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262:1,2 275:17

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282:2,4 285:12

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218:10 232:5

233:6 250:7

251:9 276:18

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46:1 78:18 196:8

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penthouse 51:2

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48:4 58:7 64:6

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106:22 115:1,12

140:10 188:19

189:1 192:8

211:12 216:14

232:6,14 236:16

238:16 243:15

246:4 250:9

256:8 257:8

258:3 259:16

265:20 266:3

267:17 269:22
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275:13 278:20

281:21 284:22

286:14,17 289:1

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200:3,6 205:9

220:10 226:9

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108:16 109:5

116:11 124:14

136:19 137:2

138:3,4,7 139:3

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216:14

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13:16,19 15:19

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31:4 46:19,20

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122:13

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226:6

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282:14,17,20,22

283:1 284:8

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282:17

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156:3 198:20

211:12,13

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213:11,12 226:7

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potential 285:22
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potentially 63:18

199:16 275:18

potentials 237:1

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54:12 56:5,13

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289:16

serial 235:16

series 180:22

Seriously 274:19

serve 274:4

serves 86:17

service 286:13

sets 115:12

settled 31:21

setup 27:20 78:1

200:1

setups 27:22

seven 94:15

113:4,5

267:13,16

several 25:13

41:15 68:22
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70:16 89:16

several-pack 12:8

shaded 120:8

shape 200:8

SharePoint 292:3

sheaves 75:13

Shebik 3:10

109:22 204:20

208:2,8 209:11

210:3,20 211:11

212:7,10,14

213:4,22

sheet 244:9

sheetrock 122:15

she'll 242:6

shines 124:19

ship 23:22 32:2

36:13 42:14

141:13 162:12

199:13

shipped 23:6,7

29:13 32:6,10

35:15,20 36:6

48:19 136:6,8,10

149:17

150:5,7,10,13

162:7

shipping 42:22

shirt 70:9

shivs 32:4 36:21

37:1

shoes 15:8

short 58:13 242:10

short-term 40:21

shove 115:3

shows 106:18

290:19

SHR 62:1,9,12,17

63:19

shut 15:15 101:9

147:13

sidewall 52:13

sign 233:18,19,21

234:2,5,7,11,12

237:21 260:19

significant 55:20

63:17 72:17

86:22 90:19

91:10 93:12

106:18 246:11

significantly

232:20

signs 237:14,19

238:2

SIKES 297:2,12

silencer 13:11

21:9,10 50:7

silencers 15:21

56:1

silencing 12:18

13:14

silent 11:15

similar 21:1 63:9

77:18 87:10,11

88:3 115:22

127:13 132:4,5

165:6 176:5

182:14 184:2

265:10 269:5

276:1

simple 62:9 199:19

200:1 233:17

simplest 84:9

simulating 96:1

single 31:4 51:5

93:10 103:21

203:12 216:21

284:20

single-packaged

175:22

sir 133:3

225:15,19

sit 31:1 224:7

239:20

sits 168:2 179:19

situation 50:15

89:10 157:20

159:19,20 160:1

193:22 216:17

233:7 238:7

247:13 252:13

285:5,21

six 54:17 94:15

112:6

113:3,5,14,16

118:12 207:17

249:4 260:18

size 34:18 68:20

69:9 90:16,18

103:3 116:12

118:2,6 135:8,11

154:16 230:22

231:4 269:21

sized 46:11 69:7

sizes 6:19 69:9

206:4

sizing 38:21

SJI 2:15

skew 154:4,6

skipped 49:8,9

SKUs 31:10,11

slab 122:12

slapped 279:5

sleeve 131:10

134:11,15,16,20

135:18,21

136:2,9,14,16,20

,22 137:1,6,9

138:18 139:18

140:1 142:7,12

144:10

sleeved 70:9

sleeves 131:9

136:3 142:2

143:13

144:12,19,20

slide 83:9,10 88:17

178:5 182:15

190:16 238:19

261:17

slides 4:5,7 42:11

262:14

sliding 78:16

slightly 90:8

103:19 281:5

slip 237:4

slow 83:2

slowing 255:6

small 43:6 46:22

54:20 56:8 80:18

93:16 147:11

196:12,14,15,16

201:15

271:17,18 272:8

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46:11 69:5,9

74:13 82:17

90:16 93:14

109:1 118:2,7

130:3 153:4

237:21

smoke 123:19

so-and-so 278:16

society 14:9
Capital Reporting Company

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soda 235:3

sold 71:15 132:11

234:4

solid 280:17

solution 20:11

41:4 111:8

solutions 10:2

33:14

solve 232:12

somebody 20:14

65:2 72:20 94:10

120:18 122:18

166:2,16 170:11

175:16 192:1

202:12 208:12

265:9 267:5

276:22

282:10,11

286:13

somehow 104:11

197:17 282:15

someone 10:2 14:1

17:15,17 22:22

79:17 101:8

108:2,4,6

142:1,6 265:17

278:14 279:22

280:10 282:16

283:8

Sometime 40:2

somewhere 25:10

37:7 45:7 51:11

79:19 84:4 113:4

206:9

sooner 259:5

sorry 42:18 70:14

95:5 97:6

108:5,22 110:21

111:13 129:15

135:20 136:21

168:8 177:6

195:2 209:11

214:1 243:17

293:2,7

sort 9:20 10:3

15:17 32:19

139:4 165:11

188:21 243:5

289:3

sorts 148:9

sound 12:17

13:13,18,21

14:2,9 30:22

110:16,19

111:14,18

112:3,5,21

117:17

118:12,17

127:13 164:4

187:5,11,14,21

sounded 63:21

sound-reducing

143:18

sounds 8:10 26:7

27:6 54:6 64:14

117:9 174:20

210:10

source 8:4,6 10:7

82:6 96:8,10,15

97:9,13

130:2,4,22 141:4

146:7,19

148:1,15 151:17

152:1,2 153:18

154:13

156:10,14 157:7

158:17 160:2

161:22 162:2

163:12 173:20

174:4,14 176:22

177:3 178:8,10

180:11 181:15

200:12,17 203:4

204:15,17 218:8

221:2 226:4

227:5,7,9

228:6,13 229:2,7

233:5,8,9,20

279:2

sources 227:6

228:20 229:17

sourcing 203:7

Southern 3:6

232:4

Southland 204:12

space 8:12 9:5,10

15:22 64:11

82:15 90:14

132:17 261:1

271:14

spaces 217:2

span 203:8 206:4

211:18 212:9

spanned 228:12

speak 4:12 5:2

59:19 165:20

198:20 205:5

225:11 227:21

237:12

SPEAKER 29:15

45:5,8 47:4 71:2

108:16 271:17

275:3

SPEAKERS 79:22

speaking 211:4

spec 24:6 40:2

79:18

special 15:18,19

31:12 162:20

164:10 166:2,6

167:1,8,9 168:14

specific 16:22

30:19 60:7 97:13

127:16 183:9

194:18,19 211:4

242:4 264:4

286:11

specification

18:13 283:14

specified 13:15

45:2 282:10

specify 40:3 45:3

48:8 56:14

specs 112:10,11

speed 6:7 103:1

107:1 117:6

168:8,9

169:1,3,9,13

170:7,14 173:7

174:4

speeds 170:10

spell 283:9

spelled 286:18

spend 215:14

spills 281:17

spinning 91:2

spirit 245:5

split 195:19

271:14

splits 127:4

spreadsheet 44:11

263:16

spur 16:4

SPV 182:2,3

SPVUs 198:20

square 289:2

stand 87:5 124:3

standalone 8:19
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standard 10:7

14:5,13 18:19

19:2 21:5

23:9,13,22

28:8,21 29:14

35:17 37:3 38:19

42:14

43:1,2,4,18

47:18 48:19

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71:15 84:3,20

96:10 101:18

112:14 114:3

121:5 127:17

135:7,11

136:1,16 137:5

140:21 141:13

142:7 144:10

149:10 151:18

165:21 166:1,9

170:4 172:20

173:15 212:6

227:4 229:11,13

262:21 266:9

269:8,9 270:22

271:1,2,10

272:12,15,19

standards 1:3

14:15 25:5 36:19

41:2 61:17 68:8

69:18 77:10

91:14 115:12

119:9 135:7

151:20 211:22

270:18,19

272:21 293:10

standing 84:6

standpoint 55:22

73:3 84:14

101:22 108:11

122:10,17,20

STANOIK 267:9

Stanonik 3:11

177:11

178:12,15

190:12,16,20

191:8,11

192:1,7,13,17

193:6,10,18,21

194:2,6,14,20

195:9,11 230:4,9

236:8,10 254:16

257:21

258:10,15

259:2,15 260:11

261:5,12

Star 237:9

start 4:5 74:14

83:21 146:22

158:2 159:8

161:4 167:13

227:5 244:8

261:17

started 109:17

178:20 189:22

204:4 218:14

246:9 251:12

starting 30:22

238:17

starts 227:6,9

state 117:7 227:14

statement 20:15

117:15 229:5,15

263:19

states 74:5 191:9

286:12

static 10:4,9

12:4,19 26:15,21

28:9 29:9,22

30:13 34:15,16

35:12,14 37:22

38:11 39:21

55:19,21

67:20,21 68:1,9

70:13 71:14,22

72:15 73:5,7

74:13 75:4,5,16

76:1,2,11,18

77:11 78:16

79:8,16,17

80:2,5

81:2,6,8,15,17,1

9 82:11,21 93:3

119:20

127:8,14,15

128:7 137:12

138:1 153:6

statics 27:19 35:13

37:1 75:17

static's 195:5

stationary 125:21

status 269:17,20

statute 41:5

287:4,7 292:22

statutory

270:18,19

272:19,21

stay 46:16 104:13

stays 192:20

233:11

STC 143:19

steam 6:11 111:12

STEM 66:8 77:16

78:3,7 80:20

81:2,7,14 82:4

84:19 88:14

101:2,17 110:21

111:2,4,10

147:18,21

150:7,10,13

151:5 168:16

200:2,5,7,20

239:1

step 99:11 103:2

104:11 105:1,4

169:6

Stephens 3:13

122:22 244:2

stepped 169:2

steps 107:1 244:6

sticking 166:16

stipulate 227:6

stipulations 227:3

stock 285:10

stone 214:3

stopped 161:10

storage 5:17

265:13

store 3:6 260:18

281:15

stores 167:17

278:20

story 132:22

straightforward

72:5

strain 88:7

strainers 151:22

stratification

127:3

stream 7:21 70:1

street 277:19,21

string 80:2,6

stringent 69:18

striving 255:7,20

strongly 249:5

structure 128:9

structures 111:15

structuring 260:1

struggled 215:6
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struggles 221:14

struggling 198:4

221:2,7,11 291:4

stuck 51:1 156:8

stuff 8:7 13:2 31:1

65:8 69:6 74:13

75:20 93:17

101:9 117:3

140:5 143:15

154:2 169:13,19

192:8 226:22

228:3 268:4,13

277:1 282:6

subcommittee

77:9

subgroup 242:14

subject 5:7 41:10

111:21 187:17

207:14 229:12

245:3 265:18

submarine 73:15

submarines 72:16

submit 242:12,16

262:1 263:6,19

268:19 277:2

submitted 179:3,5

261:21 264:14

266:4

submitting 262:18

264:22

substance 244:12

substantive

243:12 246:11

subtracts 10:9

succeed 245:17

249:14,16,17

257:22 258:5

succeeding 258:6

success 254:6

256:9 260:3

successful 245:7

249:6

suction 107:22

sue 281:21

sufficiently 232:10

suggested 132:15

192:1

suggesting 46:2

113:13

suggestion 137:7

suggestions 16:10

42:5 215:9

suite 1:8 74:5

summary 242:20

super 18:10 52:7

148:18

supplier 286:5,8

suppliers 264:19

supply 57:18

86:19 90:11,17

91:7 111:15

113:7 115:17

121:2,16 122:7

149:13

supplying 119:19

support 216:1

244:18 253:14

286:12

supposed 82:20

256:10 257:16

sure 15:17 16:5

17:5 28:15 35:16

36:5 38:18 50:21

79:11 84:4,17

104:10 108:1

120:20 125:7

128:14 132:13

139:4 145:16

150:15 152:10

157:4 162:3

174:10,13 186:1

188:15,16 209:2

219:5 221:13

227:1,12 243:4

244:7 247:15

249:20 256:18

258:13 260:22

278:21 284:22

285:2 286:6

288:4,17 292:15

surface 122:12

surfaces 124:21

125:22

surgical 20:10

surprised 139:2,5

232:16

survives 21:4

sweaters 64:12

switch 187:22

209:14 210:2,3,8

system 8:20 12:18

13:14 14:21 22:4

25:16 39:22

52:20 78:20,21

87:15,16 94:10

100:11 101:4

102:2 120:4

121:11 139:9

140:6 148:3,21

149:17,22

150:10,14,18,20

179:18

236:14,16

261:20,22

262:3,8 263:8

systems 5:15 77:14

116:17 150:5

152:1 160:12

195:16,19

203:12 271:14

T

tab 139:3

table 56:10 77:17

80:15 81:5,22

82:4 161:8,9

175:5 200:7

260:8 277:14,16

tabled 245:20

253:17,18

254:13,14

tag 284:15

tags 284:18

take-home 31:20

taking 7:6 9:9

14:20 60:17

87:19 148:21

206:13 281:10

talk 4:6,13 6:8,9

7:17,22 9:14

57:14 70:18

76:13 89:4

109:20

129:21,22

131:11 133:11

163:20 206:19

211:3 213:11

233:3 240:18

243:3 253:19

267:22

talked 4:9,12 5:11

9:7 10:1 71:17

79:14 86:18

89:16 109:11

116:1 144:20

145:22 153:8

164:3,7 181:8

239:11 268:16

269:6 276:7

282:13,17
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talking 19:10,12

20:9,20 29:17

34:13 37:2

39:6,7 51:15

56:2 64:1 73:6

76:17 77:18

80:15 82:8,13

85:4 94:2

97:1,16 99:9

104:20

135:14,15,17

138:13 139:8

151:5 156:10

158:19 160:1

168:16 197:12

216:13 228:16

240:8 255:4

257:7 258:5

261:17

tall 52:7

tape 84:21

targeted 258:18

task 257:22

TBD 291:17

TDA 226:9

team 70:18

technical 97:22

Technically

122:10

technicians 125:4

technologies 2:18

102:18,22

technology 19:1

85:6 101:21

102:14 103:9

105:9 208:19

223:13

tedious 257:10

telephone

286:15,16

temperature

60:10,22 61:2

66:15,17 67:1

101:5 104:20

123:21 124:3

127:2 139:12

157:22 158:1,2

180:16 195:4

template 263:10

templates 262:5

263:9

ten 52:15 69:16

102:3 193:15

tend 69:9 149:16

ten-minute 242:8

tentative 5:6 6:1

tenth 83:4

tenths 101:5

term 193:4 288:7

terms 5:4 12:12

15:14 16:17 18:8

27:10 55:2 58:19

92:2 97:21 100:6

109:10 116:10

124:12 136:18

137:4 162:5

192:3 211:4

214:13

244:16,18 256:7

260:4

test 4:22 9:18,21

10:10,11,13,17

11:15,17 12:14

18:5 23:2,5,17

24:2

27:10,18,19,22

28:6,7 29:16

31:2 34:15,22

35:1,12 36:2

38:15 41:3 44:6

47:11 48:6,7,8

55:9,17,20 58:20

60:12,15,18

61:3,17,22

63:13,15,22

64:2,6,15 68:6

70:4 71:21 72:1

75:2,15

76:6,14,16 78:1

79:8,12,15 80:19

81:12,14

82:10,11 83:1

84:14,18 86:3

88:5 89:13

95:1,7,11 100:9

101:4,18 105:18

106:1,2 107:7

109:10 111:10

118:9,12,17,20

119:6,17 121:4

127:16

135:1,2,3,4,5

136:13,14

139:18 142:5

148:15 150:1

151:10,18 165:6

170:15,16

171:15

172:10,14

173:11 193:14

196:5 198:3,7

199:22 202:14

206:3,8 207:4,5

208:2,9

209:5,7,9,16,17

210:22 211:2,5

216:4,6 217:3,9

218:11 219:8,13

220:11 222:18

223:1,2,13,14,15

224:5,10 229:19

230:12,13,20

231:3 243:6

258:11 268:12

269:21 270:7

272:4,6,10,11

tested 9:18 10:14

23:19 34:15

53:15 54:7,10

106:16 122:13

129:18 149:18

202:2,9 216:21

219:3

testing 4:18

5:7,14,16 41:11

42:21 43:2 48:20

53:18 60:14 71:9

79:19 106:8

123:22 137:4

142:6 198:11

205:22 206:2

216:20,22

218:2,9,19,20,21

219:1,4,15,16,19

220:18 221:21

222:15,17 243:6

268:17,20 270:1

tests 21:4 77:1

78:11 106:7,11

220:4

thank 21:17 22:18

53:13 94:20

98:12 120:5

133:8 148:6

201:20 203:21

230:7 251:17

292:16

Thanks 292:13

that'll 214:13

that's 5:21 6:8

7:20 10:20 12:15

14:14 18:12

23:16,21 26:10

29:17 30:2,3

33:2 37:10,22

38:4,6 39:1 46:5
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47:13,20

49:2,8,12 50:20

56:12 60:8 65:21

66:8 67:14

68:5,21 72:12

73:16,18

77:6,12,13,21

83:8 84:6

94:11,13 96:12

112:1,2

117:13,19 123:2

125:12 131:2

132:10,16 134:8

137:18 139:7,8

140:19 141:16

147:5 149:5

152:4 158:8,15

162:21 168:14

170:12

171:16,17,20

172:14 176:10

178:5 179:5

180:4,15 182:4

183:1,2,18

184:8,21 185:11

186:6,8,20

187:17 189:9,10

191:1,19 192:17

193:11,19

194:8,21 195:11

196:9

202:1,14,22

203:1 205:22

210:5,8 213:16

215:9

216:5,11,12

217:7,10,20

218:17 220:1

221:10,13

224:7,13,15

227:20 229:4,11

231:2,6

234:20,22

236:19 241:8,22

243:13 244:9,10

248:1,7 249:1

250:6,17 251:15

252:13,18 254:1

255:5,14 256:15

257:16,19

259:22 261:14

262:13 264:11

266:12

267:7,9,14

268:13 269:9,20

270:1 272:6,7

274:16 275:6,11

276:5 279:5,8,15

280:21 283:20

284:2,5 285:20

289:11 290:15

themselves

36:10,20 278:14

theoretical 113:3

thereafter 294:5

thereby 6:7

therefore 84:11

88:7 100:9

203:13 250:15

there's 9:3 23:15

42:22 45:8,11

52:10,15 56:10

59:3 61:19 77:22

82:5 162:19

165:5 168:19

169:18,22

170:1,12 175:20

180:22 188:1

196:5 197:14

207:15 208:9

209:15 210:1

212:1,16 214:4

216:2 218:3

219:3 232:5,21

236:1 241:1

243:20

245:19,21

247:4,12

255:2,16

262:11,12

264:13 268:13

269:8,17 270:2

279:19 282:5

286:15

thermal 5:17

191:12,16 194:3

thermodynamic

220:21

thermodynamics

271:9

thermostat 195:3

they'd 212:19

they'll 52:9

they're 30:18 47:3

51:22 75:10 91:5

151:5 168:16

171:7 183:14,17

188:22 189:11

195:21

203:15,17,18,19,

20,22 204:1

208:15 212:1,15

215:12 221:10

230:15,17,18,19

235:11 240:20

256:8

they've 221:2

thick 140:13

thicker 135:22

thickness 136:4

third 21:4 89:11

93:16 113:11

184:12 218:3

219:18

262:1,6,17

third-party 262:22

263:3,18

Thomas 1:17

294:2,14

thoughts 5:12

56:15 259:9

thousand 114:19

thousands 31:10

109:3

three-phase

196:19

Three-quarters

74:17

threshold 62:9

throw 32:6 82:21

201:10

throwing 9:1

thrown 290:18

Tim 281:18 284:8

timeframe 252:2

timeline 246:20

250:8,14

timesaver 267:15

Timothy 2:8

Tim's 281:5

tiptoe 238:17

titanium 155:4

title 177:21

178:12,15

today 41:21 49:3

59:11 60:9

71:5,6 109:18

118:5 172:18

240:4 241:11

292:13

today's 85:6

206:10

toenails 20:10

Tom 2:20 96:4

156:18
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