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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

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ASRAC COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL PUMPS 

 WORKING GROUP

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 PUBLIC MEETING

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 THURSDAY

 JANUARY 30, 2014

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 The Public Meeting met in Room

 8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.,

 Washington, D.C., at 10:00 a.m, Doug Brookman,

 Meeting Facilitator, presiding.

 PRESENT

 DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator

 LUCAS ADIN, Department of Energy

 ABIGAIL CHINGOS, Department of Energy

 DANIEL COHEN, Department of Energy

 ELIZABETH KOHL, Department of Energy

 DOUG RAWLAND, Department of Energy
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 ALSO PRESENT

 ROBERT ASDAL, Hydraulic Institute

 ROBERT BARBOUR, TACO, Inc.

 ROBERT BOTELER, Nidec Motor Corporation

 CHARLES CAPPELLINO, ITT Corporation

 GREG CASE, Hydraulic Institute

 TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation

 Council

 GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned-

 Utilities

 CHARLES FOSTER, Edison Electric Institute

 MARK HANDZEL, Xylem Corporation

 ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump Company

 PAUL LIN, Regal Beloit

 JOHN MASTERS, Danfoss Group

 JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness

 Project

 LAURA PETRILLO-GROH, Air-Conditioning,

 Heating, and Refrigeration Institute

 DOUGLAS POTTS, American Water

 CHARLES POWERS, Flowserve Corporation

 Industrial Pumps

 CALLIE REIS, Navigant Consulting

 STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute

 LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency

 Alliance

 STEVE THOMPSON, TACO, Inc.

 GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos USA

 MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council

 DANIEL WEINTRAUB, Navigant Consulting

 BENJAMIN WHITE, TACO, Inc.

 JOHN WHITE JR., TACO, Inc.

 JOHN WHITE III, TACO, Inc.

 SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National

 Laboratory

 ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory
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 A-G-E-N-D-A

 Welcome. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

 Opening Remarks, Introductions and

 Agenda Review. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5

 Definition of Covered Product. . . . . . . . .20

 Scope of the Negotiation . . . . . . . . . . 203

 Next Steps . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 425
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 10:25 a.m.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning,

4 everyone. Welcome. This is the second public

5 meeting of the Commercial Industrial Pumps

6 Working Group. Today is Thursday, January 30,

7 2014 here in Washington, D.C. at the

8 Department of Energy. 

9 Let me welcome you all. I'm glad

10 to see you. My apologies for the late start. 

11 For those of you that are joining us via the

12 Web or just got here we changed rooms and this

13 is a better room for us. Much better for our

14 creating a transcript and a public record of

15 this meeting. And so we're happy to be up

16 here but a little bit late in starting.

17 Let's start immediately with

18 introductions around the room. If each of you

19 can get used to turning these microphones on

20 and off.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: I'm Gary Fernstrom

22 representing the California Investor-Owned
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1 Utilities, PG&E, Southern California Edison,

2 San Diego Gas & Electric, and the Southern

3 California Gas Company. 

4 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with the Regal

5 Beloit Corporation as an alternate to Howard

6 Richardson.

7 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural

8 Resources Defense Council.

9 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer,

10 Appliance Standards Awareness Project.

11 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers,

12 Flowserve Corporation.

13 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

14 Institute.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem,

16 Incorporated.

17 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson

18 Pump.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

20 Edison Electric Institute.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest

22 Power & Conservation Council.
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1 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.

2 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

3 Grundfos.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

5 Cappellino, ITT Corporation.

6 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American

7 Water.

8 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO,

9 Inc.

10 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General

11 Counsel's Office.

12 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE's

13 Appliance and Equipment Standards Program.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,

15 LBNL.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Daniel Weintraub,

17 Navigant.

18 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific

19 Northwest National Lab.

20 MS. REIS: Callie Reis, Navigant.

21 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec

22 Motor Corporation.
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1 MR. WHITE: John White from TACO.

2 MR. WHITE: John White from TACO.

3 MR. WHITE: Ben White from TACO.

4 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson from

5 TACO.

6 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Laura

7 Petrillo-Groh, AHRI.

8 MR. MASTERS: John Masters,

9 Danfoss.

10 MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster

11 representing Edison Electric Institute.

12 MR. RAWLAND: Doug Rawland,

13 Department of Energy, Office of General

14 Counsel.

15 MS. CHINGOS: Abigail Chingos,

16 Department of Energy, Office of General

17 Counsel.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, very good. 

19 And thanks to all of you, nice to see you here

20 this morning on a cold day in Washington.

21 I'm going to do a very brief

22 agenda review, and then after the agenda
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1 review I'm going to invite anybody, any member

2 of the committee that wishes to make brief

3 opening comments here at the outset.

4 Immediately following this agenda

5 review, as I said, an opportunity for comment. 

6 From there all of you received a copy of the

7 PowerPoint slides, the colorful presentation,

8 yes? Some very good information here prepared

9 by the Department and the consultant team that

10 I expect we'll be going in and out of as the

11 day proceeds. I don't think that there's any

12 linear approach to what we have in mind here. 

13 However, you can see in the agenda

14 what we intend to cover today is definition of

15 covered product. Perhaps in this sequence,

16 maybe not. The definition of covered product. 

17 Scope of negotiation. 

18 We'll break for lunch midday

19 around about 12:30 or so and then probably

20 return to scope of negotiation. That's one of

21 the real things to hope to conclude during the

22 span of this two-day meeting.
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1 We'll probably take a break

2 mid-afternoon around about 3:30 or so and then

3 talk about the metric for pump efficiency. 

4 Whatever we haven't finished today

5 we'll take over to tomorrow. And let me note

6 as it reflects in the agenda tomorrow we'll

7 start at 8 a.m. in this room right here. And

8 we'll once again have an opportunity for

9 opening remarks and then we'll talk about the

10 test procedure or testing overview.

11 We'll take a break mid-morning. 

12 We'll continue with test procedures. We'll go

13 from there to talking about data requests,

14 data needs as you envision it. 

15 We'll break for lunch again

16 12:30-ish and then talk about setting the

17 agenda for the next meeting which is now

18 scheduled, by the way. And then concluding

19 remarks between 2:45 and 3 o'clock tomorrow. 

20 We'll conclude tomorrow at 3 o'clock.

21 And one thing that was discussed

22 at the last meeting was maybe shifting the
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1 meeting times slightly, maybe starting this

2 meeting a little earlier, maybe starting the

3 day 2 meeting a little bit later. We'll take

4 that up at some convenient time during the

5 course of the day today.

6 So that is the agenda for today. 

7 Questions and comments on the agenda? No

8 questions or comments on the agenda.

9 Let me just ask you if you would

10 please, please say your name each time you

11 speak. We had some difficulty with the

12 transcript in getting the attributions

13 correct. 

14 And I'd like a little bit of free

15 flow and form myself. However, we're going to

16 need to exhibit a little more discipline in

17 the meeting today because we want to make sure

18 we produce a really accurate record. So I'm

19 going to be a little bit more heavy-handed

20 until we get the hang of this. Okay? And

21 then we'll lighten up a little bit.

22 But if you would keep the focus
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1 here. Turn your cell phones on silent mode.

2 For those of you that are joining

3 us via the Web, do we have the Web at this

4 point? Not yet. When the Web joins us I'll

5 introduce how they are supposed to participate

6 if at all.

7 Anybody that wishes to make

8 opening remarks? Steve Rosenstock.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

10 Yes, I just wanted to say I just want to

11 appreciate the information that was sent out

12 a couple of days in advance. That's always

13 appreciated to give time for people to review

14 the information.

15 I just had a quick question. As I

16 look through the slides some of the slides

17 seem to be making recommendations for this

18 committee and I was wondering who's making the

19 recommendations on the slides?

20 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. I

21 think it's probably better to say that they're

22 not meant to be characterized specifically as
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1 recommendations, but more as general proposals

2 for the purposes of stimulating discussion. 

3 Nothing in there represents any

4 kind of predetermination on the part of DOE or

5 a specific recommended course of action. 

6 We're really just trying to set the stage for

7 discussion and debate on these items.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

9 Yes, I really appreciate that. But again,

10 skipping ahead to slide 5 it specifically says

11 yes/maybe/no in terms of scope for the

12 negotiations. 

13 So, again, it's one thing to say

14 pump type and that's already -- again, the

15 slides already say yes/maybe/no. So, that

16 does seem to be a recommendation in my view.

17 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. Just

18 to provide a little clarification there. I

19 fully appreciate the impression that that

20 slide gives. 

21 And again, all the information

22 that's provided here is subject to change by
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1 this working group. So really what we're

2 trying to do is just give a place to start. 

3 All those items can be moved up or down in

4 that list, rearranged. 

5 We just really wanted to provide a

6 sense as to where things seem to be based on

7 the last meeting, coming out of the framework

8 document, just to give a place to start. 

9 We'd like to be able to provide a

10 visual way of characterizing all these things

11 and we had to start someplace, so.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you

13 very much.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: And Steve, I would

15 further interpret that. I think some of those

16 are like placeholders to indicate that this is

17 the sort of thing we would take a vote on.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

19 Thank you, I appreciate that. So obviously,

20 you know, we would -- this group can change

21 any of these, what's shown on the slides. 

22 Okay, thank you.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I would welcome any

2 introductory remarks from any member of the

3 committee working group. No comments here? 

4 Lucas.

5 MR. ADIN: Just a couple of

6 additional general points. This is Lucas

7 Adin, DOE.

8 Steve already touched on one item

9 I did intend to address up front which is just

10 generally that the information in the slides

11 is for the purposes of stimulating discussion. 

12 It's informational. Any of it can be changed. 

13 We intend to make notes based on the input

14 that we receive here today.

15 To the extent we make decisions

16 that are different from what we've put up

17 there of course that will all be recorded. So

18 none of this is meant to indicate that DOE has

19 already made a decision on any of this, or

20 that we're recommending a specific course of

21 action. 

22 To the extent DOE does have
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1 something in mind of course I'll make that

2 known to the group as we talk about it today. 

3 But, we haven't predetermined any of these

4 things.

5 The data is based upon what we've

6 been able to collect so far. It's our best

7 attempt to aggregate it, to put it in a form

8 that's useful for this group. 

9 Obviously to the extent anyone in

10 the group thinks that any of it is inaccurate,

11 or there's something that should be added to

12 make it have more relevance to our discussion,

13 or anything of that nature, of course we

14 welcome that kind of input today and we'll add

15 it to the information that we have in there

16 for the record. So I think those are just the

17 general items I wanted to make known up front.

18 And I'm sorry, one other item is

19 that the order that we put these things in is

20 not necessarily reflective of how we'll

21 discuss them. We put a few things in there

22 talking about proposals for voting, items we
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1 want on. 

2 We just want to make sure those

3 were known up front so that everyone knows

4 really what it is that we're talking about and

5 what we're trying to work towards. 

6 We're not expressing an intent to

7 try and vote on these things right off the

8 bat. We want to talk about the substantive

9 information first and then inform a decision. 

10 So hopefully that's clear.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here? 

12 Yes, Chuck.

13 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers,

14 Flowserve. I think what you put together,

15 Lucas, was good.

16 I think what's most important is

17 as much fact base and not speculation as we go

18 through this. Because we are taking a serious

19 step in people's lives, companies and costs

20 and such. So I think what you're doing is

21 excellent right now.

22 The substance itself, the only
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1 question I would have, and some of the

2 corporations involved here and even some of

3 the other groups, having it a day and a half

4 before the meeting is good actually. Right? 

5 It gives us a chance. I think everybody's

6 probably looked at it.

7 And the problem is though to reach

8 out to resident experts in different areas

9 which is a lot of areas that you touched,

10 which is good. You've got to reach out to

11 those people. 

12 And if you know today

13 communications is instantaneous, but still

14 people have to go pull data, pull information

15 and validate and say, give their opinion back

16 to the people at this table I think to view

17 it. 

18 So, I would just recommend as we

19 go forward if we could get more time with some

20 of these. We may have to table some of these

21 not because I don't think this group wants to

22 slow it down, but we may want to go get more
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1 data and validate some information, or do

2 another additional survey because some of the

3 stuff touched here wasn't even on the surveys

4 and it's good, right, and we've got to look at

5 it. 

6 Because we are affecting a

7 considerable amount of cost in people's lives

8 and jobs if we make the wrong decision because

9 of speculation.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.

11 MR. ADIN: Just a couple of quick

12 points in response. Lucas Adin, DOE.

13 Your point is well taken. And

14 truth be told if we could have given you a

15 week to look at it we would have. We were

16 literally still getting data two days ago, so. 

17 Hopefully we won't be in that

18 situation for the next meeting or the

19 subsequent meetings. We'll already have most

20 of what we need that we can do analysis and

21 provide it farther in advance. 

22 But obviously we want to make sure
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1 we have everything included. We want to make

2 sure we provide something that's not

3 misleading or mischaracterizing what we're

4 going to be talking about. But we will make

5 every effort to do that. Thanks.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments here

7 at the outset? Okay, thank you.

8 The Department provide -- do we

9 get the transcripts? Not yet, mounted, no. 

10 On the SharePoint site, I hope

11 that all of you found a way to get access to

12 the SharePoint site. Several bits of data, my

13 meeting summary was posted there. More stuff

14 will be added as we're going along. The

15 transcripts we expect will be any day now?

16 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. 

17 That's my hope. It's taking longer than I

18 anticipated to finalize the documents, but I'm

19 hoping it will be soon. I need to check in

20 with the court reporters and find out the

21 status.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Around about 700
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1 pages' worth. It's a lot of content to scrub

2 through, sort and sift. Okay. 

3 So then with no additional

4 comments then let's go into the first item on

5 the agenda which is definition of a covered

6 product. 

7 And so this definition here on the

8 slide, slide 3. Do we have the Web with us

9 yet? We do have the Web. So those of you

10 that are joining us via the Web, we welcome

11 you. How many have joined us? Five right

12 now. We welcome you. 

13 The Department of Energy is trying

14 hard to make sure these meetings are very

15 accessible to anyone via the Web. 

16 You may participate in this

17 conversation if you wish but while you are not

18 please have your telephone on mute. And you

19 can raise your hand in the software that we're

20 using and we ought to be able to hear you here

21 in the room. 

22 However, we're trying to make sure
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1 that the bulk of the content, the discussion,

2 conversation here is among members. But we

3 welcome additions to that conversation. 

4 Okay, now let's hear about

5 possible definition of covered product. 

6 Alison Williams.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, we're just

8 suggesting here -- as you know the covered

9 product is a pump, but there's no definition

10 for it. 

11 So what we first want to do is

12 just discuss what the definition of the

13 covered product should be. And so this is

14 just an example we threw up here to start

15 discussion. 

16 But basically the idea is that a

17 pump would include the covered product. The

18 pump would include a bare pump, any mechanical

19 equipment attached to it, the driver and

20 controls.

21 MR. POWERS: Yes, Chuck Powers,

22 Flowserve. The question would be are we going
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1 to define the definition to the decisions

2 we're making, or to the broad industry itself? 

3 Because if it is for this committee I would

4 think you'd want to change the word "fluid" to

5 "water."

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't hear that. 

7 "Flow" into what?

8 MR. POWERS: Change the word

9 "fluid" to "water."

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

11 MR. POWERS: Because we have -- I

12 believe, and I could be wrong, we're

13 addressing water, not other things. 

14 I mean, I understand from a

15 general nature we're trying to put a

16 definition of pumps and there's 4,000 books

17 written on it, but we ought to clarify more

18 precisely.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: This is what we're

20 supposed to do. Al Huber.

21 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

22 We believe it should be not only water, just
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1 clean water.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Alison

3 Williams, LBNL. Let me just clarify that the

4 covered product should be not just what we're

5 going to set standards on as part of this

6 committee, but just a general definition for

7 pump. 

8 So it might include fluids, and in

9 this rulemaking the standards could cover

10 clean water pumps. But in potentially some

11 future rulemaking down the road as the EU is

12 doing it could cover more products. 

13 So this definition doesn't

14 necessarily have to be specific to what you're

15 going to negotiate in this rulemaking. 

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Alison -- Gary

17 Fernstrom, California Investor-Owned

18 Utilities. I have a problem with that because

19 when DOE or the legislature defines a covered

20 product it generally preempts states from

21 implementing energy efficiency regulations for

22 any of those covered products.
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1 Where DOE covers a product and

2 fails to set a regulation then we have

3 preemption and a no-regulation regulation. 

4 And that precludes the states from setting

5 their own regulations for these products DOE

6 has chosen not to do anything with.

7 So, I believe that our definition

8 should not be broad, opening the opportunity

9 for all products to be covered and thus

10 preempted, resulting in preempting the states

11 from regulating products that DOE may choose

12 to regulate.

13 MS. KOHL: So, just in response to

14 that. This is Betsy Kohl from the DOE General

15 Counsel's Office. 

16 So, the way preemption works is

17 it's the product. And the pump is the listed

18 product under EPCA. 

19 So, if, you know, the result of

20 this group's negotiation is that DOE sets a

21 standard for certain types of pumps states

22 can't come in and fill in the interstices
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1 where we've decided that no standard is

2 appropriate.

3 And I know, I think we talked in

4 the last meeting about pool pumps which we've

5 determined we don't think we have an issue

6 because your standards are set in terms of the

7 motor.

8 But that's the way the preemption

9 works.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. 

11 The California standards apply to both pool

12 pumps, being the integral pump and motor

13 product, and motors. So, there is an issue

14 there.

15 MS. KOHL: So, Betsy Kohl, General

16 Counsel's Office. We've talked some with your

17 attorneys out there. And the way the regs are

18 set up, the headings, and this is probably

19 more detail than others in the group need to

20 know, but are set up for the pump system. 

21 But when you actually look at what

22 the reg is doing it's requiring things of the
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1 motor. So we didn't perceive an issue. But

2 if there's more discussion that's needed on

3 this we can certainly talk about that.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: This is an issue

5 that came up last time and the Department of

6 Energy said you would check on it. So you've

7 checked on it and so this is very appropriate.

8 Do you wish to say more about it

9 at this time? Or you're comfortable, Betsy?

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. 

11 Thank you so much, Betsy, for the

12 clarification. That really helps.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

14 MR. STARR: So, Louis Starr with

15 NEEA. I think that how you define a pump

16 could be -- and actually we spent a lot of

17 time in private negotiations with HI on this

18 very thing.

19 My only problem is that if the

20 intent really is to regulate this group of

21 things I think advocates and pump

22 manufacturers, not speaking for them, but are
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1 for it.

2 What we found is that really what

3 this doesn't do is it doesn't regulate

4 distributors. And so if the intent is not

5 really to include distributors in there I can

6 be pretty sure the pump guys are probably not

7 interested in that.

8 So, really if the only purpose is

9 to regulate preemption I'm kind of wondering

10 is this sole purpose a preemption issue, or is

11 this really to regulate the market and there's

12 no intent to actually cover it in extended

13 product.

14 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. So, I

15 think I might need a little bit more

16 clarification on the distributor part of it. 

17 Just to make sure it's clear, that the intent

18 I think with a broader definition like this is

19 to ensure that something like the extended

20 product all the way out to a drive would be

21 addressed generally under the definition.

22 MR. STARR: Well, just a real
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1 concrete example would be let's say I'm a pump

2 manufacturer and I make a pump motor on a VFD

3 and I sell it into the market. And

4 regulations pass and now I now have to have a

5 certain efficiency associated with this group

6 or this product that I sell.

7 Meanwhile, the distributor buys

8 this product either from the pump manufacturer

9 or from a contractor. And Joe Contractor down

10 the street decides, hmm, I can put this

11 together at my distributor company. I'll buy

12 a VFD, I'll buy a pump and I'll put it all

13 together and I don't have to meet the DOE

14 regulations on this where the manufacturers

15 do.

16 The manufacturers have to spend

17 money on testing and all the other stuff

18 associated with regulation. Meanwhile, the

19 distributor does not have to spend any money. 

20 He undercuts the pump supplier. 

21 Now people are buying stuff from

22 the distributor. The pump company is now
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1 losing money on it and a whole bunch of other

2 things. So that's what I'm referring to. It

3 creates a loophole.

4 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE. That

5 may or may not be an artifact of whatever

6 standard comes out of this group. But the

7 reality of all of our standards is that we

8 regulate the manufacturer. And after-market

9 manipulation is not something that we have

10 authority to regulate.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

12 EEI. In terms of the discussion I'd like to

13 skip ahead. Slide 19 I thought was very, very

14 interesting to me. I don't know if you want

15 to skip ahead to it. Because it does have a

16 kind of a big impact on this discussion.

17 Again, this is based on the

18 survey, Lucas, that you've done, the data that

19 you've done. And I think it's really, you

20 know, especially in terms of controls --

21 again, just looking at this data, the data set

22 that we have, it looks like, and pretty much
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1 in a lot of the categories it's that less than

2 10 percent of the packages have a VFD, have

3 some sort of control. Again, based on this

4 one.

5 A lot of them have the motor, that

6 shows, a lot of them have the driver, but very

7 few, less than 10 percent are shipped with the

8 control.

9 So, in terms of, again, in terms

10 of the scope as a manufacturing standard I'm

11 wondering if maybe as a first-time standard,

12 maybe leave controls out because since the

13 manufacturers aren't really shipping with the

14 controls.

15 And again, I also wanted to say

16 I'm not aware -- with other appliance

17 standards, I'll just say motors, for example,

18 you know, all the standards on motors. It's

19 about efficiency at full load or nominal full

20 load. 

21 There's nothing about the

22 controls. Control is a lot of times required
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1 in the building codes, but DOE does not set

2 any standards for controls with other --

3 almost all the other covered products that I'm

4 familiar with.

5 So again, just in terms of this

6 discussion based on this data adding the

7 controls might cause, and especially after

8 what Louis said, might cause more issues than

9 DOE wants to -- than this group wants to

10 address. Thank you.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I just clarify

12 that, again, the definition of the covered

13 product does not necessarily refer to what

14 you're going to set standards on.

15 So, the metric may or may not

16 include the motor and controls. Even if the

17 covered product was defined to include a pump

18 motor and controls you can still determine

19 whether or not the metric includes those

20 components at this point.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Alison,

22 by the way. Al Huber and then to Charlie.
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1 MR. HUBER: Okay, first of all,

2 this is Al Huber, Patterson. To address

3 Steve's concern about the percentage of VFDs. 

4 VFDs are -- they're relatively new in the

5 marketplace I guess would be a good way to put

6 it. And it's growing.

7 And pump manufacturers now are

8 offering, and just in the last 3 years are

9 starting to offer them as packages with their

10 pumps. So this is a growing market for this

11 product as a combination. So that's why you

12 see the lower numbers right now, but they are

13 growing. 

14 And we expect, I expect to see it

15 at the 65 where the motors are before it's

16 over, or maybe more. So that addresses that.

17 Now, the other concern is with the

18 distribution. Once the distributor starts

19 assembling he now becomes a manufacturer. If

20 he takes products, different products, and he

21 starts packaging them together and so that I

22 think that if we look at this there has to be
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1 some kind of certification. If he wants to

2 get into testing and certification then he can

3 offer it.

4 MS. KOHL: I'm not sure that's how

5 we would view it -- Betsy Kohl from DOE GC. 

6 I'm not sure that's how the Department would

7 view that. But we can certainly talk with our

8 enforcement folks about that.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, that's an

10 interesting point. Charlie first. I'm going

11 to observe the queue for a little bit here. 

12 Charlie Cappellino.

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

14 Cappellino, ITT. Two points, or one's a

15 question.

16 Why are we going through the

17 process of defining pump? Just to clarify it.

18 MR. ADIN: In general there is a

19 definition -- for every product that DOE

20 regulates there is a definition for that term. 

21 And it is, at least in DOE's view, essential

22 for identifying the universe of products that
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1 potentially fall under that term in the law.

2 So, if you look in the statute

3 there's a word "pump" and it says this is a

4 covered product. But the statute doesn't

5 define what it is. It's up to DOE to decide

6 what that term means. 

7 And so generally what we try and

8 do is define it broadly so that even if we're

9 not going to set a standard for various

10 classes or types of pumps it's -- that word

11 has meaning that's applicable to a broad array

12 of things that potentially could get a

13 standard, or does that make sense? 

14 DOE has statutory authority to set

15 standards for all these things. We're not

16 necessarily going to do it here, but that term

17 still has to have a meaning. And we want to

18 make sure that that's understood.

19 Like, for example, DOE has

20 standards for electric motors and adopted a

21 definition for the term "electric motor" which

22 was extremely broad. It basically just says
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1 a motor is a machine that turns electrical

2 energy into rotating mechanical energy. It's

3 as broad as it can possibly be.

4 But we only set standards for more

5 specific types and we define what those are in

6 the regulation. And we're anticipating that

7 we will follow some sort of similar pathway

8 here.

9 This is just meant to define up

10 front the word "pump," this is what it means

11 and we want to make sure potentially that it

12 could mean this entire extended, whatever term

13 you're using to define it, extended product,

14 pump system. If that makes sense.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, I didn't

16 think you were finished.

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: So, my question,

18 follow-on question is does the word have to be

19 "pump" or could it be "pump package" or "pump

20 system?"

21 MS. KOHL: So, the defined

22 product, or the stated product in the statute
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1 is "pump." So that's the term that this group

2 would have authority to define, yes.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Several people wish

4 to be in the queue so about in this order is

5 how I saw you. I saw Gary and then Tom and

6 then Mark then back to Chuck. Let's try and

7 keep these as brief as possible. Gary?

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so this is

9 Gary, California Investor-Owned Utilities. 

10 Betsy and Lucas, I understand what

11 you're saying about the broad definition. 

12 Thank you for clarifying that.

13 I have a question about states'

14 rights though. If you define these products

15 as broadly as you can as being covered it

16 prohibits states from identifying a

17 subcategory where they would like to take

18 action.

19 And I don't see what the utility

20 and the benefit to national energy efficiency

21 is if you summarily cut off states from the

22 opportunity to address these products that may
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1 have cost-effective energy saving

2 opportunities for states.

3 MS. KOHL: So, this is Betsy Kohl

4 from DOE GC. And I'm not sure, I believe we

5 provided this information to you last time

6 about the preemption provisions in EPCA.

7 And the way the statute is written

8 is that states are already preempted. EPCA

9 has defined the pump as a covered product and

10 until we come in and set standards you are --

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, okay --

12 MS. KOHL: And when we do, "pump"

13 the field is preempted.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Here's what I

15 don't understand. You said EPCA covers these

16 products and that forms the basis of

17 preemption.

18 You said the definition isn't

19 really very well defined in EPCA. And DOE

20 comes along and more specifically defines what

21 a covered product is. 

22 So, if you define "pump" as
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1 broadly as you can, yes, then all pumps are

2 covered. But it's DOE that is coming up with

3 this subsequent definition that supports EPCA,

4 right?

5 MS. KOHL: Yes, I see the point

6 that you're trying to make. But I -- I

7 wouldn't see the concept being that we would

8 define "pump" and the states could come in and

9 -- I just, I see the point that you're trying

10 to make and we'd have to think about that a

11 little bit more. 

12 But I don't think -- I mean the

13 way the statute works is that there is a

14 product. And if we decide for a certain

15 subset of that product to not -- I think I see

16 what you're saying now, yes.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. 

18 Thank you for recognizing our point of view.

19 MS. KOHL: Yes.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And thank you to

21 Betsy also for that. Tom Eckman. I'd like to

22 see if we can return to this definition of
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1 "pump" on page 3.

2 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I want to follow

3 up on both Al's comment -- Tom Eckman,

4 Northwest Power and Conservation Council.

5 If we have a growing market share

6 of products that are extended, let's say,

7 because they have controls and VFDs associated

8 with them, and we have a DOE position that an

9 assembler of that product at the distributor

10 level isn't a manufacturer then I think

11 there's a bit of a conundrum here in terms of

12 moving forward on a definition that includes

13 anything but the pump itself. 

14 Because we don't have the ability

15 apparently to regulate people who assemble the

16 same thing that a manufacturer does but are

17 not manufacturers by the current definition. 

18 I think that's a problem for everybody in this

19 room that wants to get the closure. So we've

20 got to take that on straightaway, otherwise

21 we're not going to make much progress.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, are you
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1 following at this point or shall I let some

2 follow-on comments?

3 MR. HANDZEL: You can go ahead. 

4 What I was going to say has been said.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

6 Then Paul and then Gary. And I'm coming back

7 to you, Chuck.

8 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal

9 Beloit. Just maybe some comments as relative

10 to the regional standards around the AC heat

11 pump and furnaces.

12 The DOE had defined the contractor

13 as a manufacturer. So there is ways of -- I

14 know that DOE has addressed different

15 distributorships and even down to the

16 contractor level.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

18 California Investor-Owned Utilities. 

19 Following up on Paul's point. 

20 In a previous meeting of this

21 nature DOE presented the legal opinion that

22 where a distributor or supplier was assembling
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1 a product and selling it as a pump motor or

2 pump motor control combination they would in

3 effect be deemed a manufacturer and that

4 product would be regulated.

5 If it's assembled in the field,

6 motor from one supplier, pump from another

7 supplier by a contractor, then that may not,

8 in fact, be a product that's manufactured for

9 sale. So, I'd just like to follow up on

10 Paul's point.

11 The HI has expressed an interest

12 in somehow including or valuing the energy

13 savings potential associated with these

14 extended products. We similarly see an

15 opportunity there and would like to be able to

16 recognize that energy savings. 

17 So, if there's some way for us to

18 open the door even a little to valuing

19 extended products that would be a good thing. 

20 And I think we collectively would like to do

21 that.

22 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. So, I
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1 understand completely the concern that's been

2 raised regarding the distributor aspect and

3 why that's kind of a sticking point at this

4 point in the discussion.

5 And I guess to move forward in

6 trying to respond to that maybe it's best for

7 me to ask a question which is how are products

8 that are intended to be assembled from these

9 different parts. So the pump, the motor, and

10 in some cases a variable speed drive or some

11 kind of controls, how does the pump

12 manufacturer express the types of components

13 with which it's intended to be paired, with

14 which it can be paired?

15 How does the distributor know

16 what's appropriate? I mean, how does that

17 information flow? 

18 Part of this is obviously the

19 physical assembly of the final covered

20 product, but another part of it is the

21 marketing, the expressing of engineering

22 information, ratings, those kinds of things.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

2 Xylem. So, each of us manufacturers, again,

3 we make the pump. And it's suitable to be

4 paired with our type of motor and the type of

5 motor is designated by NEMA, frame sizes and

6 things like that. 

7 So, we supply it with the motor if

8 somebody asks us to. Other times we supply it

9 without the motor and either a distributor, or

10 as Gary mentioned, a contractor could mount a

11 motor on it.

12 Same thing applies to the drive. 

13 It's an option that we all sell. We can put

14 the drive with it or you can supply your own

15 drive.

16 So our performance curves, they

17 tell you what horsepower you have to pair with

18 the pump to ensure that it's adequately being

19 powered properly. Okay? 

20 So all the information is out

21 there. We make it available that somebody

22 could pick and choose if they wanted to do it
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1 that way.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

3 MR. POWERS: Yes, I think but the

4 basic process starts with the specification. 

5 Somebody is going to write a spec. Somebody

6 is going to spend a lot of time trying to help

7 that spec because a lot of people don't know

8 and they get consultants to groups that help

9 them with these things.

10 And when that spec starts

11 generally speaking it's the heart which is the

12 pump first. They want to define what the pump

13 is, the core part of the unit.

14 After that it's just a train. 

15 Somebody will say we want a motor. Sometimes

16 they'll go into detail on the motor. 

17 Sometimes they don't.

18 Then they'll say we want a VFD. 

19 And generally speaking -- or controls, very

20 few people, and in fact I don't know of any

21 actually, make all those items as a combined

22 unit in different facilities.
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1 But the packaging, now, somebody

2 reads a spec and the spec might say it has to

3 be one of the following pump guys, right, or

4 equal they'll say, different variations,

5 right?

6 So they're smart and they'll say,

7 okay, I am a representative of this guy. 

8 There's three of them on there. Now I'm going

9 to go buy my motor like we would do, and I'm

10 going to go do this and this and depending

11 upon that regulation. 

12 So, if this policy defines for all

13 those it's good. But how broad can you go? 

14 Because then do you go to the valve? Do you

15 go to the system? There's a lot of other

16 variations that can destroy efficiency. All

17 the gain you have here may go down the tubes

18 based on the type of system they have.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino. 

20 I think this discussion has been interesting

21 and I'm hoping we can shift gears towards

22 thinking about describing a possible solution
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1 now. Charlie Cappellino.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

3 Cappellino, ITT. 

4 So, to build on the discussion. 

5 The market is really -- there's two aspects of

6 it.

7 In one case when the customer has

8 the ability to choose independently the pump,

9 the driver and the drive, the frequency drive,

10 those decisions can be made immediately as

11 Chuck described. So a customer could judge

12 the efficiency of the pump, judge the

13 efficiency of the motor, or judge even the

14 efficiency of the drive all independently and

15 make a selection. So, that's one scenario.

16 The other scenario is where it's

17 an integral design where the customer really

18 has no choice over the drive, the controls and

19 the bare pump. 

20 So, one possible outcome here is

21 when the customer has the choice or the

22 ability to independently judge the efficiency
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1 of each component, then regulate each

2 component individually like you do today with

3 an electric motor. That's regulated

4 independently. 

5 A drive could be regulated

6 independently and the bare pump could be

7 regulated independently. Because the customer

8 has choice and they can make a decision from

9 an efficiency standpoint on each of those

10 pieces.

11 But in the other case where the

12 customer has no choice there's no chance to

13 make a choice. So in that case you should

14 regulate the combined solution.

15 I mean, I think that's the

16 practicality of the way the market works today

17 and would be easiest to implement if we move

18 forward.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from one

20 other industry person. Al Huber.

21 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

22 Many of us as manufacturers are involved in a
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1 wide range of product in a wide range of

2 sizes. Depending on what we come out with

3 here we originally said we were going to go

4 above 2,500 gpm and 400 and some odd feet of

5 head and -- 25 gpm. And we were going to go

6 up to 200 horsepower.

7 Well, the majority of the things

8 that we sell under 200 horsepower or less are

9 probably not very rigid specifications like

10 Chuck was talking about. I mean we see both,

11 he sees both. So they're not, you know, you

12 don't have a specification written by a

13 consultant. 

14 So, I think what you're trying to

15 regulate here is small enough that the

16 majority of it is going to fall within where

17 the customer doesn't know, and doesn't have a

18 choice, and doesn't have a consultant to help

19 him in most cases. Below 200 horsepower.

20 Above that you see a lot of

21 consultants and you see a lot of people

22 defining what you're going to give. So I
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1 think, you know, we need to bear that in mind.

2 All this falls together and that's

3 why you're going to have to make some

4 decisions as Doug says and you're going to

5 have to wrap it all in one package. And it's

6 all going to have to fit.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg.

8 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, NRDC. 

9 I just have a follow-up question.

10 In the commercial building space

11 how does it work? Do you not have an engineer

12 spec-ing the pumps and would those not be less

13 than 200 horsepower? 

14 MR. HANDZEL: Sorry, thank you. 

15 Mark Handzel from Xylem. In a commercial

16 building typically, new construction, there's

17 going to be a consulting engineer who's going

18 to write that specification that Chuck

19 referred to, list accepted manufacturers. 

20 He may list what motor

21 manufacturers he accepts. He may list what

22 drive manufacturers he accepts. So, we will
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1 -- all of us are somewhat at the mercy of our

2 distributors in terms of how does that get bid

3 to the mechanical contractors, whether they

4 buy all those components from us. 

5 The distributor may represent a

6 different drive line so he may include his

7 drives. So that's why we are somewhat in

8 control, but not completely in control. 

9 And certainly the replacement

10 market like in a commercial building, you

11 know, there's typically no consulting engineer

12 when a pump is being replaced.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

14 California IOU. 

15 I agree with Charles' perspective. 

16 I think we all tend to look at the market from

17 our own point of view. And certainly the

18 majority of the market for larger equipment is

19 specification-driven just the way it was

20 represented.

21 But there is becoming an

22 increasing number of smaller pumps and motors
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1 that are sold as a package off the shelf,

2 either the pump and motor combination, or the

3 pump, motor and drive combination. 

4 And I was in Grundfos' plant in

5 Fresno where I saw these products being

6 produced, not to some specific customer's

7 order, but for the catalog.

8 So, when we think about it yes,

9 the majority of the market is middle to bigger

10 stuff. It's specification-driven. But there

11 is this equipment that is sold off the shelf

12 which may include a motor and may include a

13 control which is a manufactured product. And

14 we would like to recognize the energy-saving

15 potential that these products have.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: It would seem as

17 though we've now sort of characterized all of

18 this. Now, the question is what do we do

19 about it. Lucas Adin.

20 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. So,

21 just to perhaps step back a little bit and

22 kind of re-frame what we're discussing here
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1 regarding the actual definition of the term

2 "pump."

3 All the concerns that have been

4 expressed here are completely understandable

5 and they're all things that at some point we

6 have to address.

7 From DOE's perspective they fall

8 into different parts of the regulation that we

9 will deal with separately, but are obviously

10 all interrelated. So you have this definition

11 of the physical product that you're actually

12 covering. And this is the most broad group of

13 things not all of which obviously we're going

14 to set a standard for. So the physical

15 product.

16 Then you have the metric that

17 defines what the efficiency of that product is

18 going to be for the purposes of setting a

19 standard and rating it. So that kind of

20 determines which parts of that thing that

21 we've already defined we're actually

22 measuring.
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1 And then you have the enforcement

2 and compliance components which determine

3 who's responsible for reporting what, and

4 who's going to do the testing, and how the

5 ratings are going to be disseminated, how

6 things might be labeled, for example, those

7 kinds of aspects.

8 They're separate in the

9 regulations. They're all obviously related. 

10 I understand how from some perspectives you

11 really can't make a decision about this

12 without knowing how some of those other things

13 are going to work out.

14 But I think at least from DOE's

15 perspective our view is that actually you can

16 because you could still define a pump the way

17 we have it up there and still write a standard

18 that, for example, sets an efficiency

19 requirement only for the bare pump and yet

20 still have a metric that covers all those

21 other things. 

22 You could use standardized values
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1 for the motor and the drive, or other assumed

2 elements within the test procedure that allow

3 you to compare only on the basis of bare pump

4 efficiency.

5 There are other ways of doing this

6 besides testing and rating every conceivable

7 combination of those three things.

8 So really what I'm trying to say

9 is that we're not necessarily setting a

10 standard on each one of those items. You can

11 still write a standard that effectively

12 compares pumps only based on the bare pump

13 efficiency, and yet still have a metric to

14 compare on the basis of the overall product. 

15 And I think DOE's perspective is

16 that there is a significant potential benefit

17 to having that kind of comparative metric. We

18 want to be able to recognize the advantage of

19 using, for example, a system with a drive that

20 is variable speed for variable load conditions

21 compared with a single-speed throttle system. 

22 There is significant potential
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1 energy savings associated with that and we

2 believe that you can define a pump the way we

3 have it up here, or in some similar language

4 and still get to that and without it being

5 overly onerous. It's all in how we define the

6 downstream parts of the regulation some of

7 which we're going to discuss today. 

8 So I just wanted to make sure that

9 that was clear at least from DOE's

10 perspective.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Both Louis and Tom. 

12 Which one of you wishes to go first? Louis.

13 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. 

14 I think maybe a solution to this problem might

15 be if we maybe first go and figure out what

16 the scope of coverage is going to be. And

17 then that would help us define what a pump is.

18 So, ideally you would decide

19 what's going to be covered and what's not, and

20 based upon that you set what a pump is and

21 then you would back out.

22 So, if what we end up covering is
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1 a whole bunch of things and set the scope of

2 coverage or the definition of "pump" to cover

3 the scope of coverage. And in the future if

4 that needs to expand then change the

5 definition of "pump."

6 MR. BROOKMAN: This working group

7 has a lot of opportunity to do what it chooses

8 to do. I would just note that that's not the

9 way DOE typically does it.

10 (Laughter)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

12 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I appreciate

13 Louis' comment. I think from defining it with

14 all those components and leaving open the

15 question of as we proceed down the path of

16 deciding which products and what metrics are

17 regulated, having a broad definition gives us

18 the advantage to determine that.

19 We're going to -- this will not

20 avoid the discussion later on for an

21 integrated product of whether DOE considers a

22 distributor that produces this as a package
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1 and puts it in their catalog for sale as a

2 manufacturer or not. That issue has to be

3 addressed if we're going to get to an

4 integrated product.

5 Not every product class here is

6 going to have an integrated product question

7 in front of it, but some are. Because that's

8 the way that, as Gary said, that's the way

9 they're packaged and sold today.

10 But circumventing the standard by

11 a distributor isn't where we want to go. So

12 I think we can get there with a broader

13 definition, but we don't -- we haven't crossed

14 the Rubicon yet. We're going to be there

15 again talking about where the distributor

16 plays in this game or not.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So you would

18 advocate that these four elements all be

19 included. And did you have any thoughts about

20 whether it should be clean water as opposed to

21 fluids?

22 MR. ECKMAN: I think in terms of
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1 our discussion so far that's a product class

2 definition. If DOE's view is that EPCA says

3 "pump" then it means all pumps, then this is

4 all pumps.

5 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner with

6 NRDC. Tom, I agree with your points on that,

7 but I think in terms of defining a covered

8 product before I would be ready to vote on

9 this I would want further clarity on the

10 preemption issues and how this definition

11 affects preemption. So I think that for me is

12 the sticking point today in terms of getting

13 to an answer on this.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

16 Yes, in terms of the, you know, what is a

17 fluid I was kind of having a little sidebar

18 with Tom about what exactly is a fluid.

19 I'm just thinking since this is

20 covering industrial applications as well and

21 just with industrial you just have all sorts

22 of -- it could be pumping a whole wide variety
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1 of I'll say different fluids and different

2 things.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Slurries.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right, exactly. 

5 It's just a matter of that's where a lot of

6 energy is being used, but then it's a matter

7 of how much data does DOE need to collect if

8 we're going to look at I'll say all types of

9 fluid pumps in terms of our work. 

10 I think a narrowing of the scope

11 is helpful, but I'm just, again, on the other

12 hand it's a matter of well, how much analysis

13 does DOE need to do in terms of, okay, if we

14 just do water, how much of the pumping energy

15 are we excluding by doing that.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So you're

17 advocating for fluids, not clean water. 

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I would say I

19 think we might need to -- we might need to

20 define fluids I think in this case. Fluids if

21 defined. How about that?

22 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. I don't
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1 think we have a problem as manufacturers with

2 the term "fluids" in this very broad

3 definition of pumps. I don't think we can say

4 that pumps only pump water in the DOE's view.

5 But we need to narrow the scope in

6 our rulemaking to something much smaller than

7 that. So I think we're working on two

8 different levels here.

9 Lucas, I believe you're trying to

10 get to a lever where this is the definition in

11 "pump" addressing the Federal Register saying

12 this is what a pump is. 

13 From there our group can take a

14 much narrower view of this and say this is the

15 type of pumps we're going to regulate.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: And also address

17 Tom's concern at some point.

18 MR. CASE: Definitely.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: About that as well. 

20 Gary I saw first and then back to Chuck.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

22 California IOU. I don't know that I can speak
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1 for the other advocates but we agreed long ago

2 with the Hydraulics Institute that we wanted

3 to focus on clean water pumps due to the

4 complexity of trying to deal with commercial

5 industrial pumps that handle other fluids.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: I just want to

7 clarify again. So, non-clean water pumps is

8 on our list of things to discuss for scope of

9 negotiation.

10 So, I don't know that we

11 necessarily want to get stuck on that right

12 here because we can narrow down the scope

13 later on the specific product classes that

14 we're going to cover.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: The question for

16 the working group is do you want to try and

17 narrow the scope now through this definition,

18 or do you want to have a broad definition now,

19 something that might be quite inclusive, and

20 then subsequently in discussion through this

21 working group establish a scope that you think

22 is relevant, more narrow? That's the question
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1 right now. 

2 Chuck, I think you're next.

3 MR. POWERS: It's Chuck Powers,

4 Flowserve. Just another minor item and it

5 doesn't really directly impact this. But I

6 can envision and a perception that

7 manufacturers are going to have additional

8 pressure, I should say strategies that not all

9 the products they make will be in the path of

10 this, right?

11 That same pump may have to serve

12 another market in another country outside of

13 the U.S. So what could end up happening today

14 if they make a product a certain way, in order

15 to compete in other regions they're going to

16 have to still make this other product. So the

17 additional burden of cost and whatever could

18 impact those manufacturers. Right? 

19 So it's just a point to note. Not

20 everybody is going to adopt just what the U.S.

21 does. And now we have the European. You

22 know, that's going to add additional pressure
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1 to companies, right? Just to be aware.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

3 MR. ADIN: Just a clarifying

4 question. So that point you just made, I

5 understand it generally. But does that have

6 bearing on the discussion generally, or is it

7 with respect to differentiation between clean

8 water pumps and non-clean water, that kind of

9 thing? Or is it just a general point?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: It's a general

11 comment. 

12 MR. ADIN: All right. Thank you.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Now to Al Huber.

14 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber,

15 Patterson. As manufacturers we're not opposed

16 to the broad definition of what a pump is as

17 long as we all understand that -- and just as

18 Gary so aptly put, all along we've been

19 working on clean water. And we really need to

20 stay focused to that I think.

21 And I think we're about to get to

22 a consensus here that we can vote for this
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1 definition and move on.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I also sense we may

3 be getting in that direction. Joanna?

4 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I was

5 actually going to say to follow on Meg's

6 comment I'm not sure we're prepared to vote on

7 a definition today.

8 And I think it's clear that the

9 definition can be as broad as we want it to

10 be, so I'm not sure it necessarily impacts our

11 discussions around what products we set

12 standards for.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: One thing that I am

14 going to adopt as a process feature is before

15 I call a vote from now on I'm going to give

16 any caucus an opportunity to meet prior to

17 calling a vote. We don't want to disrupt the

18 meetings a lot. It's got to be kind of a

19 brief gathering if we're going to do that. So

20 I'll just add that that's something that I

21 will introduce as a way for you to consult

22 with your fellow caucus members.
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1 MS. WALTNER: And a process

2 suggestion on that is we could table votes

3 till after lunch to allow us to caucus over

4 lunch rather than breaking up the meeting.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Another good idea. 

6 Greg Towsley.

7 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

8 Grundfos. I wanted to throw something out, a

9 suggestion out and just get feedback from DOE

10 and the other manufacturers and the advocates.

11 It sounds like from just some of

12 the discussion, hearing about all the

13 different ways a pump could be defined, is it

14 possible to change the wording of your

15 definition up there, Alison? 

16 The piece where you have "when

17 present," if you move that after "inclusive

18 of." And then that covers a bare pump with or

19 without a motor. So, "a pump is a device

20 inclusive of -- when present -- mechanical

21 equipment, driver and controls." Just, I was

22 just curious about some feedback from the
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1 others.

2 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

3 Let me make a suggestion. When we put "pump

4 is a device that moves fluids by physical or

5 mechanical action and includes when present

6 mechanical equipment, drivers and controls."

7 I mean, you define the pump as the

8 pump and what it actually does. Then you say

9 "includes when present mechanical equipment,

10 drivers and controls."

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I think I got that. 

12 I made a note about it.

13 MR. HUBER: She's got it.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts.

15 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American

16 Water. I guess my only question would be what

17 does "when present" mean. So, does that mean

18 as purchased as a package? Does that mean as

19 installed? I think we have to -- that gets

20 muddy.

21 MR. POWERS: That's a good

22 question. Chuck Powers. I go to the next
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1 page, right? And the next page was trying to

2 define it.

3 So if there's a spec that says

4 you've got a pump and a motor and there's no

5 gear in between it's when present. There

6 might be jobs where you have a gear in

7 between, you may not. That's what I look at. 

8 Maybe I'd be reading it wrong.

9 But I think where Al's coming from

10 is when present. So you may have a spec that

11 says you have a pump, and if you look here a

12 gear, they show gears, belt-driven and some

13 you don't. So I think it's how it's specified

14 I guess.

15 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. But what

16 if I'm buying just the pump and retrofitting

17 it to an existing motor? How would that apply

18 to me?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl.

20 MS. KOHL: This is DOE --

21 retrofits is another area where we wouldn't --

22 I mean, we regulate whatever the manufacturer
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1 puts out the door or market. We wouldn't --

2 I mean, a retrofit is not something that we

3 would have authority over.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

6 Some of the folks in this room have not been

7 privy to all the discussions we had with the

8 NGOs prior to this. 

9 So what we originally proposed, we

10 proposed to regulate through an MEI, a minimum

11 efficiency index, the pump itself. 

12 Then we also proposed --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Bare pump.

14 MR. HUBER: A bare pump -- an

15 extended product. And if we do it in that

16 manner then if you buy a bare pump then you

17 get the MEI, or whatever the efficiency index

18 is.

19 And then if you buy the rest of

20 the package from the manufacturer then you get

21 some other, I think we were going to call it

22 the EEI, energy efficient index, which would
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1 tell a consumer what he's buying

2 efficiency-wise if he buys the whole package. 

3 And that's what we proposed

4 originally to DOE and to the NGOs. Is that --

5 have I characterized that correctly? So, it

6 would cover both.

7 So if you as a consumer or -- as a

8 consumer only needed to buy the bare pump you

9 could certainly buy the bare pump. And it

10 would certainly be without a problem.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

12 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. So

13 obviously part of the issue we're dealing with

14 here is that we only get one word to describe

15 both those things which is that one. So

16 that's tricky.

17 I completely understand the issue

18 with the "when present" aspect. In fact, that

19 was bothering me a little bit too.

20 So I guess one other way of

21 thinking about this is instead of spelling out

22 all the things that could be attached to the
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1 bare pump, if you're defining what it does, a

2 pump is a device that moves fluid while by

3 implication it has something that's making a

4 turn. It has some kind of driver. And if you

5 add onto that is capable of controlling its

6 speed or whatever then it has prospectively

7 some kind of speed control. 

8 So, instead of spelling out

9 components alternatively you could write some

10 kind of language that defines its function in

11 a way that implies that it must have those

12 things, or could have them. If that makes

13 more sense. I don't know whether that's a

14 more useful way of looking at this.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, do you want to

16 follow on? Al Huber.

17 MR. HUBER: Yes, Al Huber from

18 Patterson Pump. 

19 One of the -- and we're all trying

20 to step around this because we know, and we've

21 demonstrated to the NGOs and they know that

22 the greater savings are with the whole
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1 package. I mean, by a huge amount. By a

2 factor of four to five or six times whatever

3 you could do to the pump itself, maybe more

4 than that.

5 So, if we don't write it where

6 we've got that in there then all we're going

7 to end up doing is having some efficiency

8 index for pumps and that's it and we're not

9 going to achieve the possible benefits to

10 society, to the U.S. of energy savings. 

11 So I know that's why we're trying

12 to write that in here. And so I want to make

13 that clear to everybody so they understand.

14 If that's not in there and it's

15 only the pump that's all we're going to be

16 doing and we're going to bypass a lot of

17 savings.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I think as I'm

19 casting my eyes around the room that most

20 folks are generally feeling whether we vote on

21 the definition at this point or not. It

22 appears as though one group of advocates
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1 doesn't want to do that.

2 Most people are pretty comfortable

3 with the intent behind including all of this

4 and then finding the right language, right? 

5 Whether it's "when present" or some

6 configuration that gets to something that's

7 descriptive there, that generally that this

8 working group is accepting this broad

9 definition globally if not specifically. No? 

10 Okay, Gary Fernstrom.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

12 IOUs. We've used the term "when present." 

13 How about we substitute "as manufactured?"

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking at a

15 few industry folks nodding yes as

16 manufacturers. 

17 Another word that we used before

18 was something like "as shipped" which is

19 similar, analogous perhaps. 

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

21 EEI. As shipped by who?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good point. 
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1 Charlie Cappellino.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Could it be as

3 sold? The commercial transaction. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

5 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest

6 Power Council. I think the hangup, and I'll

7 speak for Meg because we've had these

8 discussions. I think the hangup here is --

9 this was stated earlier. The definition of a

10 covered product and the ability of the states

11 to move independent of that. 

12 And so we either define for Gary

13 and the California IOUs a product that's

14 expansive in definition and prohibits any

15 state action, or we define a constrained

16 product up front and that allows for state

17 action. 

18 And I think that's sort of where

19 the advocate side has misgivings about an

20 expansive definition versus a narrow one. 

21 And that resolution probably can't

22 happen -- we can have a lunch discussion but
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1 I'm guessing we can't have a productive

2 outcome to that unless DOE weighs in.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, okay. Gary

4 Fernstrom.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

6 IOUs. I just don't want the scope to be broad

7 and the regulation narrow, prohibiting states

8 from utilizing the opportunity to find

9 efficiency measures.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: However, if the

11 definition was broad and the scope, the

12 application was broad, then that would work --

13 MR. FERNSTROM: That's fine. The

14 issue there is DOE for a lot of reasons is

15 usually not as rigorous as California might

16 be. But so long as there is not a prohibition

17 and no regulation we're happy with that.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you for

19 that. Greg Case.

20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

21 Institute. Two things. I was wondering if

22 the advocates could state what their issues
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1 with the preemption are so that maybe we could

2 get an answer from DOE. So, if you could

3 define what you needed back from them

4 hopefully we could get those answers.

5 And the second point I have to

6 make is as manufacturers we would prefer a

7 national regulation so that we had to meet one

8 hurdle instead of having to meet multiple

9 state hurdles.

10 And so we are -- as manufacturers

11 we are looking to, and that's why we came to

12 this table, we are looking to get a single

13 regulation that we can meet and that we can

14 follow. And hopefully manufacture everything

15 to that level.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Right,

17 understandably. Meg Waltner?

18 MS. WALTNER: Yes. I guess the

19 specific question is whether -- how we define

20 "pump" here defines what is the covered

21 product and therefore what is preempted. I'm

22 not asking for an answer to that. I think I'd
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1 want us to look at that issue more and I think

2 it's an issue for further discussion.

3 And then I think part of the

4 long-term thinking here is say we leave some

5 things out of the scope of this rulemaking. 

6 DOE has sort of a long-term time frame before

7 it can consider another rulemaking and then an

8 effective date for that next rulemaking. 

9 Perhaps in 3 years something that

10 we left off the table here might be something

11 we want to consider even jointly for our state

12 standard first. And I wouldn't want this

13 decision right now to preclude that. So I

14 think that's what's guiding our thinking on

15 that.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock,

17 then to Louis.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

19 EEI. And I'll just kind of use another

20 example. 

21 DOE just came out with a proposed

22 rule on the large motors, one to five hundred
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1 horsepower. They're adding a new category

2 called brake electric motors and that size

3 range is one to thirty horsepower. And let's

4 say the rule could be final soon and the

5 regulations go into effect in 3 to 5 years. 

6 Suppose a state wanted to regulate

7 brake electric motors next year to be

8 effective in a year and a half. DOE never

9 covered them before. Now they're covering

10 them but they're not effective necessarily

11 yet.

12 Or suppose there's another type of

13 motor that's not covered that's in that

14 category, again, some sort of motor X that a

15 state wants to regulate. Under -- because DOE

16 isn't specifically covering it, it's some sort

17 of motor that a state wants to cover, what

18 would DOE's response be in that case? Because

19 I think it might have bearing. I'm just

20 saying are there other precedents with other

21 types of products where a state wanted to

22 regulate something that is -- might be under
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1 a category but wasn't specifically regulated.

2 MS. KOHL: So, this is Betsy Kohl

3 from DOE General Counsel. 

4 I don't think we want to get into

5 motors because there are some different

6 preemption rules for different products. 

7 But the general rule of preemption

8 that applies to pumps is that if we were to

9 define in this rulemaking a pump is a device

10 that moves clean water, right, that's how pump

11 is defined. 

12 So states could come in until

13 perhaps in a future rulemaking we were able to

14 amend that definition to include the states

15 who come in and regulate things that were not

16 covered by the definition. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

18 MR. STARR: I guess what I could

19 use from DOE to help me prepare for this vote,

20 and the reason I mentioned doing this is that

21 after discovering why to do this after we

22 figured out what is covered is if we accept
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1 this broad definition, and then we get into

2 the what's covered and it turns out that

3 there's nothing but the bare pump that we're

4 having as a regulation I don't understand why

5 we define it so broadly.

6 And what would clarify whether

7 it's just going to be more than a bare pump is

8 whether they have the ability to regulate

9 manufacturers. If they don't all we're ever

10 going to do is regulate the bare pump.

11 So really I guess what I need from

12 DOE is understanding -- either we can do the

13 second part first or they can just tell us now

14 that we're going to have a mechanism which

15 we're going to be able to regulate

16 distributors. 

17 If the answer is no then that

18 seems problematic.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl.

20 MS. KOHL: I think what we were

21 talking about here is if we were to change

22 that definition to talk about when
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1 manufactured. 

2 The definition of "manufacture" in

3 EPCA means to manufacturer, produce, assemble,

4 or import. So we would have some flexibility

5 there.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you repeat

7 that, Betsy?

8 MS. KOHL: Yes. So, we were

9 talking about altering the definition of a

10 pump to talk about it including those parts

11 when it's manufactured that way. And the

12 definition of "manufacture" in Section 6291 of

13 EPCA means to manufacture, produce, assemble,

14 or import. So we would have some additional

15 flexibility.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's fairly

17 broad, fairly broad. Louis, keep going.

18 MR. STARR: One other item. And I

19 used to work as a design engineer so I used to

20 specify stuff all the time.

21 As I didn't bother to bring it up

22 because I thought it wouldn't matter but now
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1 it does. 

2 Typically when you put out a spec

3 you split up the spec and sometimes you'll

4 have the electrical engineer will specify the

5 motors and the drives. And in a construction

6 project which there's quite a bit of the

7 market is commercial, probably 20-30 percent

8 of your things. I don't know how that

9 translates into pumps but it's a fair amount.

10 You'll have the electrical

11 engineer specify in the VFD separately. And

12 the reason you do that is you want the same

13 drive manufacturer so you don't have problems

14 with communications if they're networked

15 together. Also it makes the startup of all

16 the VFDs easier and there's better

17 communication. 

18 And also when you bid the job out

19 you can get several manufacturers bidding at

20 the same time so you can get the best price. 

21 And so there's some mechanisms in the

22 construction process.
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1 So, you wouldn't -- what you would

2 do is you would end up having the electrical

3 install the VFDS, someone else, the mechanical

4 would probably install the motors and the

5 pumps. But there would be a split. And so a

6 lot of times it wouldn't go to the

7 manufacturer. 

8 So the manufacturer would actually

9 be the contractor is what would be happening,

10 is that they would be putting these pieces

11 together like Frankenstein. And so that kind

12 of opens up another area. The manufacturer --

13 is the contractor putting stuff together also

14 a manufacturer now or not?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl.

16 MS. KOHL: I think that the

17 flexibility that's afforded by the statute is

18 a different question as to how far we would go

19 down that path. I mean, you can see a lot of

20 issues with that potential approach.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

22 IOUs. In the spirit of trying to get to
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1 agreement here I liked Louis' suggestion that

2 maybe we could do the second part first. 

3 Maybe we can talk about what -- we do want to

4 regulate and then contemplate the scope

5 subsequent to that, given all the

6 scope-related issues.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I was about to put

8 that question to folks to see what they had to

9 say about that. Especially given the fact

10 that we've heard from the advocates, some of

11 the advocates that they don't think they'd be

12 able to vote on this perhaps today, or at

13 least not right now. 

14 So what do you think? Should we

15 move onto a discussion of scope?

16 There are a few other rather

17 specific things that seem like that we could

18 address if you look in the discussion there. 

19 That maybe we could simply get some clarity on

20 these things. 

21 What is the best term, bare pump,

22 pump head or pump wet end. Does that make any
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1 difference? Mark, I'm looking at you. Mark

2 Handzel.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem. 

4 Bare pump works, is fine. It makes it very

5 clear to us.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Anybody can just

7 chime in and register a different -- I see

8 several individuals nodding their heads up and

9 down so I presume that one's okay. Yes.

10 What's the best term, driver or

11 prime mover? Does it make any difference? 

12 Mark.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

14 Xylem. I would stick with driver just because

15 it again specifically tells what's driving the

16 pump.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm casting my

18 eyes. Anybody that disagrees with that one,

19 driver? Gary.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

21 IOUs. There is some potential for confusion

22 with drive as in variable speed drive. So I
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1 don't care. Is the pump industry's preference

2 to go with driver as the mechanical mover?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

4 MR. HUBER: We anticipated that

5 the controls may be VFDS, may be a push

6 button, may be a lot of things. So we're

7 going to call them controls so that we don't

8 eliminate any possibilities. And there may be

9 something else invented to control later on. 

10 So we just thought it would be better to call

11 the driver anything driving the pump and the

12 control anything controlling that.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

14 MR. ADIN: And just to mention

15 that DOE's view exactly conforms with what you

16 just described, Al, as far as controls,

17 defining those things downstream of the drive

18 and right. So that's more or less what we

19 were thinking of too.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So the last

21 proposal on the table was that we table this

22 at this point and we move to a discussion of
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1 scope. Or resume the discussion of scope that

2 we had in our first meeting. 

3 Although let me state -- I'm not

4 going to restate it at this point. I think

5 we're globally -- I'm not going to restate it

6 at this point. Let's move to scope.

7 And then I also thought it was

8 useful, I think it was Meg's suggestion that

9 if anybody in the room had specific questions

10 about preemption that we haven't covered so

11 far, if you could write them down so that we

12 can hand them to DOE general counsel over

13 lunch. 

14 And maybe we can get some clarity

15 after lunch, or maybe it will take longer than

16 that. But we ought to just -- we keep kind of

17 bumping up against preemption. I think we're

18 kind of -- it seems to me like we're mostly

19 answering it, but there still seems to be some

20 uncertainty. Steve Rosenstock.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

22 On the next page where it says -- I know it
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1 says possible definition. I think at least

2 for these -- these are definitions that can be

3 used in our discussions. 

4 Rather than saying it has to be in

5 the covered product I think we can probably

6 get consensus that these are definitions we

7 can agree to for our discussions of coverage

8 and eventual standards.

9 Rather than saying this is in the

10 covered product say these are definitions

11 we've agreed to for our discussions going

12 forward.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

14 So then maybe we can do that. Just run

15 through these possible definitions while we're

16 here, while it's still fresh in our minds. 

17 What do you think? Bare pump based on the

18 various pump types equipment classes

19 considered for coverage? I'm referring to

20 slide number 4.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. I

22 actually think that this is wrong and it might
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1 actually need to be a broader definition of a

2 bare pump. Because we don't define it

3 actually based on the scope of this

4 rulemaking.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Should we proceed

6 with these definitions here, or should we go

7 on to scope, Alison? What would be your

8 advice?

9 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, these are

10 pretty general so I don't know how much --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's try it. 

12 Let's just set aside bare pump and look at

13 mechanical equipment. Mechanical equipment

14 may include belts, gears and other equipment. 

15 What do you think? Is that sufficient? 

16 "Other equipment" is pretty broad. 

17 You good with "other?" I'm just

18 saying "other equipment" is pretty broad,

19 right? Doug? Lucas. 

20 MR. ADIN: Again, another way of

21 thinking about these definitions and the way

22 we do sometimes with definitions for other
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1 products or components of other products is

2 instead of just spelling out exactly what

3 those things might be, just saying what

4 they're -- the broad purpose.

5 So like, for example, where it

6 says driver you don't have to spell out it's

7 an electric motor, or a gas engine, or a steam

8 turbine, whatever. It's just the machine that

9 is providing -- whatever's driving it. 

10 Whatever is providing mechanical energy input

11 to drive the -- that way you cover the whole,

12 any type of driver that -- right. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, then so

14 far two of the three don't seem to be as

15 written here -- it would be nice if we had

16 stuff that's written for them to be reviewed. 

17 Go ahead, Lucas Adin.

18 MR. ADIN: Right. So, before we

19 -- these are items that we could probably

20 address either at the next break. Or if we

21 caucus prior to a vote on these items we'll

22 summarize the comments we've been making, come
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1 up with some revised proposals for us to

2 discuss.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr. I'm

4 thinking that we should be moving towards

5 scope, Louis.

6 MR. STARR: Just on the mechanical

7 equipment. So, does coupling get in there? 

8 Does it need to be in there? Other equipment. 

9 Okay. 

10 Is there other things besides

11 couplings? How else would you drive --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Chuck? Get on

13 the microphone there.

14 MR. POWERS: Sorry. You could

15 have mag drives. There's all types of other

16 devices. 

17 But I would also want to go back

18 to the very first one on pump, bare pump, in

19 that I think the wording in there is very

20 critical to me on the classes to be considered

21 for coverage. If that wording isn't in there

22 then it is too broad. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'll make a

2 note. Lucas Adin?

3 MR. POWERS: The other comment I

4 would make is on the first page we've already

5 decided the definition on some of the items,

6 to take those words out that don't apply. 

7 Just like you did on the first, if you go back

8 a page.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Bob

10 Barbour.

11 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO. 

12 One of my concerns when you start talking

13 about bare pumps is circulators, really how

14 you're going to test a bare pump on a

15 circulator. I don't think that's something

16 that you can do, particularly with a wet pump.

17 MR. ADIN: Just to respond

18 briefly. Thanks, Doug. That's getting more

19 into the issue of test procedure which we're

20 going to get to, I don't know if it will be

21 today, probably tomorrow.

22 But there is a broader question
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1 about how you're really going to test any of

2 these configurations. So a bare pump even for

3 one of the larger types, not a circulator

4 specifically but there's some either assumed

5 driver or whatever it is. You'll have to have

6 something driving the pump to do the test. 

7 So we'll discuss how in practice

8 those things might work. So I think that

9 might get more to your question.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Mark

11 Handzel.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Just regarding slide

13 4 where it talks about controls. It's not

14 just to control the speed, it's to control

15 on/off as well. So we need to modify that to

16 get that in there somehow, Alison.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

18 Well, we are making progress with this. Any

19 additional comments on these definitions as

20 you see here? I guess we could just keep

21 reviewing them as sort of a preliminary sense.

22 No additional comments here? Al
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1 Huber.

2 MR. HUBER: Is it your intent to

3 develop these and then caucus and then vote

4 after lunch? Is that what you're --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, whenever it's

6 convenient and whenever people are ready to do

7 it.

8 MR. HUBER: If we could get a copy

9 of that right quick so that we're all looking

10 at the same thing, make sure there's no -- and

11 then come back.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

13 MR. POWERS: And Chuck Powers

14 again. Going back to the first page, just

15 when we vote. You did a nice job correcting

16 the word behind "pump." You got rid of the

17 stuff that we agreed on.

18 The same thing should apply to

19 discussion. If we've already agreed or have

20 discussed it's bare pump and not the others,

21 remove the others. 

22 That way when we vote people don't
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1 think well, which one was it. Because even

2 though you highlighted it which was nice,

3 people may not understand that.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: How about I just

6 delete them?

7 MR. POWERS: Yes, just like you

8 did on the first.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Because they're in

10 here. Bare pump and driver in the picture. 

11 No? 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: The definition is

13 inside the -- oh, I've got you.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm not sure. I

15 think this still needs some work.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Driver. Okay, and

17 controls, right. Okay. Joanna?

18 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I think

19 Lucas may have been getting at this, but the

20 definition for mechanical equipment doesn't

21 really seem like a definition to me.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, he started off
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1 by saying something like mechanical energy

2 input. Oh, that was driver? Oh, pardon me,

3 correct. Pardon me, I'm mistaken.

4 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. I

5 mean in theory we could come up with just a

6 more generic descriptive term, you know,

7 peripheral, I don't know if that's quite the

8 right word to use. But Al, do you have a

9 suggestion?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, Al Huber.

11 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

12 It's a transfer of energy from the driver to

13 the pump. So it would be any mechanical

14 device that transfers energy from the driver

15 to the pump. And that gets you couplings and

16 gears and belts and anything else you have.

17 MR. ADIN: Right and Lucas Adin,

18 DOE. Just to clarify, those components are

19 not transferring energy to other peripheral

20 equipment. They are only transferring energy

21 from the driver to the bare pump, to the

22 impeller and making the fluid move. They're
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1 not running some kind of other, I don't know

2 what there would be, but just to be clear

3 about that. It's only transferring energy

4 from the driver to the bare pump.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Al, do you like

6 what's written up there? And I guess that

7 "may include belts, gears, couplings, or other

8 equipment" that's useful? Not necessary. Go

9 ahead, Chuck.

10 MR. POWERS: Sorry. I'm okay with

11 what Al said, but just recognize something. 

12 If it's a coupling generally speaking based on

13 the type of coupling you have, no losses. 

14 Right? Normally. There's some higher speed

15 stuff that changes it.

16 If you have a gear you will have

17 an effect on efficiency. So I think it's

18 important just to, you know, Al brought up a

19 good point, but based on the device you could

20 have another collecting in the wheel that's

21 going to reduce efficiency to that overall

22 wire to water output you're talking about,
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1 right? So it just depends on how you do it.

2 And I would also extend it, you

3 don't need to put it in there but just

4 recognize based on equipment the package could

5 include the base, other things that make the

6 unit properly operate.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So Alison is

8 suggesting deleting that second line as you

9 can see. Everybody okay with that? Yes. 

10 Lucas, please.

11 MR. ADIN: Just for the general

12 information of the group here, once we've

13 finished with going through and making edits

14 and coming up with something that we might

15 think we might want to vote on we're going to

16 print up some copies for everyone. 

17 They won't be in color, but, I

18 know, disappointing. At least you'll have

19 something to discuss when we go into caucus.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

22 EEI. For the driver it says the machine
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1 providing mechanical input to drive the blank. 

2 What was the intent after the blank? Ah,

3 thank you.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's

5 pretty broad, right? Pretty generic.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So, delete these

7 examples here?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, you're

9 next, please. 

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. Do you guys

11 want these examples in here?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. So, I

13 think we've now edited all of them if I'm not

14 mistaken. So, just additional comments on

15 page 2, these definitions here, if there are

16 any at this point. Alison? Oh, I see. Greg

17 and then Mark.

18 MR. CASE: On the driver, Chuck

19 actually brought this up. We're going to

20 drive the bare pump but we're actually through

21 the mechanical equipment. Again, if we go to

22 the gear, something like that, there may be
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1 losses involved. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. And Mark.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

4 Xylem. So, under controls you added use the

5 control, the driver. But then the next line

6 you say adjust the speed of the motor. 

7 Shouldn't motor be driver?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: This is just an

9 example line so it can be whatever you want.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Charlie

11 Cappellino.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

13 Cappellino, ITT. It might be inferred, but I

14 think the definition of "bare pump" would be

15 improved by saying it's a device that moves

16 fluids by physical or mechanical action,

17 excluding mechanical equipment, driver and

18 controls. I think that's the distinction of

19 the word "bare" is that intent.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: We're making

21 progress here, this is good. Any further

22 comments, scrutiny on these definitions? 
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1 Chuck.

2 MR. POWERS: We're having a lot of

3 side discussion. We keep changing stuff. I

4 guess my comment was the very top statement

5 said "covered product" and then we removed it

6 as considered coverage. But I just want to --

7 if that's the case, fine. That's all.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, this? 

9 MR. HANDZEL: The heading on the

10 slide is not really covered product. 

11 MR. POWERS: It's general

12 definition, but the top of the slide talks

13 about covered product.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So, they do define

15 components of the covered product. So.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Restate that,

17 whoever said -- Chuck, I didn't get your point

18 about the header. Or Mark, go ahead.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

20 Xylem. So it's not really covered product

21 because we haven't decided what covered

22 product is. So this is really a general
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1 description of pumps. I mean, I don't know

2 what you want to call it, Lucas, but I just --

3 what we're saying is we don't think we want to

4 say that that's covered product because it's

5 not decided yet.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. I

8 don't have any disagreement about that point

9 in particular. I mean, I think at some point

10 we need to come up with some understanding of

11 what these terms mean because we're going to

12 be addressing them all. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case. Thank

14 you, Lucas, by the way. Greg Case.

15 MR. CASE: Greg Case with HI. 

16 Maybe we're having trouble with -- when you

17 look at pumps in the Federal Register that's

18 the covered product? Or is the covered

19 product what we're going to decide here in

20 this negotiated agreement? As far as the

21 scope of what we're going to -- yes. 

22 So, if covered product is the big
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1 general definition, we're fine with that. If

2 covered product is what we're going to bore

3 down to and regulate in this rulemaking that's

4 different. 

5 MR. ADIN: Covered product is the

6 broader category. So it is the universe of

7 pumps. We're going to set standards for

8 something within that. 

9 And just like the example I gave

10 with motors earlier, very broad definition. 

11 We have standards for specific types of

12 motors. And so that's how this is going to

13 work.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for the

15 clarification, Lucas. Charlie, yes? We're

16 all set? Okay. Louis Starr.

17 MR. STARR: Well, maybe this is

18 too soon. Do you need a definition for

19 integrated product? Or not? In other words

20 when two pieces go together and they're, you

21 know, can't really be separated. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: It's been called --
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1 integrated has been called extended. Go

2 ahead.

3 MR. ADIN: Well, just to clarify,

4 at least as we have it up there now, the

5 proposed definition of a pump, that is a pump. 

6 All those things put together constitutes a

7 pump. So, effectively you don't need a

8 separate definition for an extended product or

9 something like that because it's a pump.

10 MR. STARR: Well, I wasn't even

11 thinking of extended. What I was thinking of

12 was a wet rotor pump which can't really be --

13 they're sold as one piece together and so

14 they're not, they can't really be separated.

15 It's different in an extended

16 product. You can actually buy one piece,

17 another piece, or you can manufacture them. 

18 So there's multiple ways of putting them

19 together, whereas the --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, thank you,

21 and then back to Lucas.

22 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify, are
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1 you talking about like a close coupled pump? 

2 Or something that's -- the motor is integral

3 to the impeller portion?

4 MR. STARR: The circulator, wet

5 runner circulator.

6 MR. ADIN: Right. So this

7 definition wouldn't exclude something like

8 that. I mean, it would still be implicitly

9 included. I mean, that's my understanding. 

10 If you think that's not clear we can --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: We're going to

12 continue on this. Mark Handzel.

13 MR. HANDZEL: No, I think the

14 discussion covered -- the answer is yes and

15 yes. So it's covered.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you,

17 Mark. Meg.

18 MS. WALTNER: I wonder within the

19 definition of a pump we need to clarify that

20 it always includes a bare pump, and then a

21 bare pump -- I mean, my understanding of the

22 intent is that it's a bare pump, any and all
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1 of those things. Right? But it always

2 includes a bare pump. Maybe I'm getting to --

3 reading it too closely.

4 MR. ADIN: I understand your

5 point. You wouldn't want to not cover

6 something if it's -- right. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I think

8 that's a clarification. Okay. 

9 Additional thoughts? I think

10 we've made good progress on this. I think we

11 -- Alison, do you have additional thoughts,

12 queries on this?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't think so.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: You don't think so? 

15 Okay. So I think that we've made edits to the

16 first slide, slide 3. We've made significant

17 edits to slide 4. I'll take additional

18 comments here. Gary Fernstrom.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

20 IOUs. Just on the next slide. We changed the

21 heading here to general description of pump

22 components. But on the next slide -- 
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: The previous slide?

2 MR. FERNSTROM: I was worried

3 about possible definition of covered product,

4 but this is a preceding slide so please

5 disregard my comments.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

7 So, I want to suggest, we're slated to spend

8 another half an hour or so before we head to

9 lunch. How are you doing, are you hanging in

10 there okay? Yes? Good. Another half an

11 hour.

12 So let's -- I think we've made

13 good progress on definition of covered product

14 and general description of pump components. 

15 That's good.

16 I guess we'll try and get that

17 printed off maybe prior to lunch so they can

18 take it with them during lunch. So that means

19 somebody needs to do that soon. Can you send

20 it to somebody?

21 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't know, it's

22 not my computer.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

2 EEI. Could you copy and paste into an email

3 to email it to people? There aren't that many

4 -- everyone would have it on their device. 

5 That might make it a little easier rather than

6 dealing with a printer.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good idea. 

8 So I was just trying to make sure we're good

9 with the sequence here.

10 And then I'm going to suggest

11 while they're doing that that we shift to this

12 discussion of scope. Which I think we made

13 really good progress in the first meeting on

14 the scope and understandably not everybody was

15 -- one, we weren't fully agreed, and two, not

16 everybody was ready to make a vote. So I want

17 to continue that discussion.

18 Yes, Chuck.

19 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers,

20 Flowserve. Just a question to help me. If

21 I'm going to look at scope, and maybe as a

22 manufacturer I think the page 6 and 7 to me
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1 would be important to understand first which

2 could relate back to the other scope, right? 

3 In my opinion.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

5 MR. ADIN: Right, understood. And

6 we expected that we would talk about those

7 things first. We put the list up front, but

8 understanding that all those things following,

9 you know, all the pump types and the data, all

10 that would be needed to deliberate about what

11 we do with all these things that are in

12 yellow.

13 MR. POWERS: So we will agree on 6

14 and 7 first. Then we'll go back to 5.

15 MR. ADIN: That's probably a more

16 logical way to do it.

17 MR. POWERS: Okay. 

18 MR. ADIN: Yes.

19 MR. POWERS: And then one other

20 suggestion to help throughout the next couple

21 of days, 6 months till we get to this, just to

22 help in my opinion. 
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1 When you go over to page 8, just

2 fit for purpose, I like the idea of the

3 picture, DOE's classification and then the

4 ANSI Hydraulic Institute. I think the

5 Hydraulic Institute piece is very important

6 because a lot of people globally will relate

7 to that more than others.

8 And the reason I bring that up, as

9 you get back we continue to use HI. But when

10 you go to other pages throughout this it kind

11 of disappears. So, I just want to make sure

12 wherever we relate to the product type we

13 relate to an HI definition. So we have that.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: This came up in the

15 first meeting several times. We need to be

16 consistent and clear about the nomenclature. 

17 And so this working group needs to agree how

18 they're going to do it.

19 One, what you're suggesting is the

20 HI definitions be the guiding nomenclature. 

21 And we heard last meeting that the consultant

22 team had done a crosswalk with the different
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1 --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: It's here. This is

3 Alison Williams. On page 9 and 10 is the

4 crosswalk. So I think he's just meaning that

5 we didn't carry the crosswalk through the

6 remainder of the slides which is correct.

7 And I think after we agree on

8 which products we want to cover and which HI

9 nomenclatures fall into each category it will

10 be easier to carry that through in the future. 

11 So we'll take note of that.

12 MR. POWERS: Okay, I have no

13 problem, I just want to be clear. The reason

14 is if you go to page 12 for an example we get

15 into numbers and all. I'm sure we're going to

16 have plenty of discussion there.

17 What's missing is the HI

18 classification. I just don't want certain

19 groups or people out there looking one

20 direction. We've got to fine-tune it so we're

21 not making mistakes.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. It's a good
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1 point. Okay. 

2 Now, then are we prepared to start

3 with, as Chuck suggests, 6 and 7 and see where

4 we end up at? 

5 So you see on 6 possible

6 exclusions for discussion. Steve Rosenstock.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

8 EEI. Again, I appreciate all the work that

9 went into it. I'm just kind of curious if DOE

10 had any information about -- and again, I'm

11 just kind of curious. There's like 40,000

12 water utilities in the United States. How

13 much energy is used by I'll say the first

14 line, the waste water sump and some of that

15 stuff? 

16 How much, compared to some of the

17 other -- I'm just kind of curious if there's

18 any estimates in terms of how much they're

19 using. I'm not excluding them, I'm just kind

20 of curious in terms of how much are we talking

21 about.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.
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1 MR. ADIN: I don't think we have

2 any specific figures on that item. It's

3 something we might be able to find, but I can

4 speak at least from personal experience that

5 there is another group at DOE that's been

6 evaluating water energy issues. And they have

7 had some difficulty in characterizing waste

8 water energy use generally. So, that could be

9 a difficult figure to obtain.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So it's just,

11 Lucas, don't let me put you on the spot. 

12 However, can you just generally -- I'm

13 thinking about the conversation we had at the

14 first meeting. Can you generally describe

15 what the logic is for these types of pumps to

16 be excluded?

17 MR. ADIN: Sure. So, in the most

18 general sense I think what we're trying to do

19 is cover a group of pumps that are in

20 relatively wide use that have significant

21 energy consumption for which we could likely

22 achieve cost-justifiable energy savings.
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1 And for some of these types of

2 pumps they're either used in an application in

3 which the requirements are very specific. So

4 API 610 pumps, for example, have very

5 stringent requirements. They pump petroleum

6 products, that kind of thing. Making

7 modifications might be very cost-prohibitive. 

8 So that's obviously one potential reason. 

9 Others have safety requirements. 

10 Others have -- they're just unique enough or

11 modifications are complicated enough that it

12 didn't seem likely that it would be

13 economically feasible to get a standard that

14 would work within this particular rulemaking.

15 Now, that's based obviously on a

16 lot of preliminary information that came out

17 of the framework document. It's not that

18 we're -- we've already decided to shut the

19 door on them. We just put up the list that

20 came from the framework document so we're open

21 to discussion.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: This is good. This
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1 is the basis for discussion. Al Huber.

2 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

3 To answer your question on the first line,

4 wastewater, sumps, slurries, solids handling,

5 those pumps are designed for particular

6 reasons. And what someone is concerned about

7 or the consumer, the user is, is that will it

8 pass the solids that it's supposed to pass. 

9 And if you define an efficiency

10 that it can't then you -- that defeats

11 efficiency, unfortunately. But I mean, that's

12 just the way life is. And that's one reason.

13 The other thing that I want to

14 point out here about the wastewater is that

15 they are developed specifically for a specific

16 use. And the same is for the API 610. 

17 And a lot of these are regulated

18 at this point, the API 610 for instance. Fire

19 pumps. They're designed for a very specific

20 purpose and that's what they're designed for. 

21 And that's the reason these were not included

22 originally.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: The HI proposal,

2 did it offer these as exclusions?

3 MR. HUBER: Yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I

5 thought. Okay, thank you. Chuck.

6 MR. POWERS: And I agree with

7 everything Al says. And I think also the

8 design itself with strings, rocks, things like

9 that, you have to design the product with wear

10 rings and things that you can help efficiency

11 with opposite of our thinking of helping

12 efficiency. And if you don't it won't work.

13 But going back to this list

14 specifically, a couple of recommendations. 

15 The globe does not refer, it's not really an

16 accepted term, ANSI chemical. It should be

17 ASME.

18 And right after ASME -- A-S-M-E.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: A-S-M-E.

20 MR. POWERS: The specification is

21 actually ASME. And right after that I would

22 put a slash ISO. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I-S-O.

2 MR. POWERS: I-S-O. Okay, just to

3 make sure that it's a chemical product and

4 it's covering it properly from a technical. 

5 Charlie, you'd be okay with that?

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie agrees,

8 okay.

9 MR. POWERS: And the next one is

10 in my opinion in the NFPA fire water industry,

11 again specifically Al mentioned there's a lot

12 of self-insured customers out there,

13 industries, and then there's insured kinds,

14 right? And in that case I would remove the

15 word "with certification." I would just leave

16 it as fire pumps. 

17 Because there's people that don't

18 need the certification because they're

19 self-insured. There's people that do but you

20 know, you can't, in my opinion I think you

21 just remove the word "certification."

22 MR. BROOKMAN: What does "with
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1 certification" mean?

2 MR. POWERS: There's different

3 bodies out there, even governed by our own

4 government -- Underwriters Laboratories and

5 stuff. There's an industry out there that

6 doesn't necessarily require that based on the

7 needs.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

9 MR. ADIN: Just to ask a

10 clarifying question there. I mean, I think

11 our general assumption had been that to be

12 considered a fire pump and used in, you know,

13 whether it's to meet codes, or whatever

14 requirements there are for the installation of

15 a fire pump it has to be certified as some

16 kind of NFPA standard.

17 And that's I think more what that

18 was getting at. Like to be a fire pump and to

19 be able to use it as a fire pump it has to be

20 certified something.

21 MR. POWERS: Yes, it does. But I

22 think the definition of certification means
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1 it's -- the product is, you know, it's a

2 label. Even though they're made the same,

3 right. And it also goes through a lot of

4 requirements.

5 I just think the definition of

6 fire pump is good enough.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I understood your

8 point about some groups self-certify. But it

9 does seem as though most of these pumps obtain

10 some sort of certification. 

11 MR. POWERS: But I think the word

12 "certification" could -- in other words you're

13 exempting fire pumps.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

15 MR. ADIN: So can I just make just

16 kind of a general point? Lucas Adin, DOE. 

17 I think generally speaking we're

18 hoping to get some kind of consensus on

19 whether categorically we could determine

20 whether these things would be included or

21 excluded, understanding that at some point

22 down the road we may have to provide some more
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1 clear language that identifies which, you

2 know, whether something is included or not.

3 And one of the concerns we get

4 into there is how easily could a product that

5 we otherwise intend to cover be modified to

6 become one of these things that's excluded? 

7 We don't really know in most cases how likely

8 that is.

9 I mean, some of the information we

10 have is purely anecdotal. I mean, some of

11 these pumps obviously can be used in the same

12 applications in which you'd use a clean water

13 pump that's otherwise the same design. So

14 that's one thing that we do have to consider

15 as we decide, you know, what categorical

16 exclusions are we going to use.

17 MR. POWERS: And I agree. This is

18 Chuck Powers again. But in my opinion the

19 savings that we all want to go after and

20 benefit is by definition 24/7 stuff, right? 

21 It's running all the time, you know, the

22 intermittent and all.
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1 Some of these fire pumps will run

2 because of requirements one hour a month and

3 that's it. Just for testing to make sure it's

4 working. Offshore platforms all the way down

5 to refineries to a building like this,

6 whatever, right?

7 And if it's going to run for 15-20

8 minutes, sometimes they pressure up based on

9 the fire codes and all that, it's not running

10 -- they're just, it's a specific niche

11 purpose. And guess what? When they do need

12 it to run they're not worrying about

13 efficiency. So, my opinion. It's something

14 you all will decide.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it clear, would

16 it be easily defined what fire pumps are?

17 MR. POWERS: Yes.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. 

19 Without using a certification, you can provide

20 a definition of fire pump that does not

21 overlap with the other covered pumps?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so we'll get
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1 there at some point, I imagine. Let me hear

2 from Steve, then I'm coming back to you,

3 Chuck. Steve Rosenstock.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just in the other

5 rulemaking on motors there was the definition

6 of fire pump motor. And as specific

7 efficiency, you know, requirements. So the

8 motors are defined anyway. I'm sure you can

9 define fire pumps using some of that language.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So Chuck, you were

11 doing well. Do you have any additional

12 thoughts on exclusions? Clarifications I

13 guess they would be mostly. So, additional

14 thoughts on these? 

15 Do you generally think this is a

16 good list? Should there be other items

17 included on this list? Should some of these

18 be struck because they have the potential to

19 save the nation a lot of energy? They're in

20 broad use, distribution, that sort of thing. 

21 Louis?

22 MR. STARR: Just one last comment
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1 on the fire pumps. If you notice I think all

2 those others do have some kind of

3 certification.

4 So I'm wondering also if it may be

5 a certification or meeting requirements in

6 NFPA 101, something like that, that would get

7 it covered.

8 Because really it seems like some

9 of your inline pumps, I could just call it a

10 fire pump.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't get that,

12 Louis. I'm sorry, I missed that. Say it

13 again.

14 MR. STARR: There's NFPA

15 requirements for fire pumps. And it's kind of

16 like a code. So the requirement is that you

17 could be self-certifying or meet the

18 requirements of that. And one way or another

19 you would meet is so that you wouldn't have to

20 be.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, got it. Al

22 Huber.
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1 MR. HUBER: So that everybody

2 understands what we're talking about here, all

3 fire pumps are sold in this country to meet

4 NFPA 20. All of them.

5 The certification comes from UL

6 and FM, one or the other. Those are the only

7 certifying bodies that I'm aware of at this

8 point. And they certify that you meet,

9 actually meet NFPA 20. That's their purpose. 

10 So to clarify that so everybody understands

11 what that means.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. That's

13 good. Joanna.

14 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just

15 want to make sure I understand. So all fire

16 pumps are sold certified as meeting NFPA 20?

17 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber,

18 Patterson Pump. No, they're not. There are

19 some occasions where some customers don't

20 require UL or FM certification. But they will

21 put in their specifications that it has to

22 meet NFPA 20. Twenty is the guide.
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1 MR. POWERS: And I think to help

2 certifying that API does not have a label

3 certified. It has a specification.

4 MR. HUBER: No, it has a

5 specification.

6 MR. POWERS: NFPA 20 is a

7 specification. So it's a clarification.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, that was

9 Chuck. Thank you, Chuck. Back to Meg.

10 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner with

11 NRDC. So based on that comment it sounds like

12 Louis' suggestion might work of either

13 certified NFPA 20 or meeting the requirements

14 of NFPA 20, or something worded --

15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

16 If you say certified then it will have to be

17 UL listed or FM approved. If you say "has to

18 meet" then you can say NFPA 20. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. Okay,

20 thank you. Gary Fernstrom.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

22 California IOUs. So, Al, I'm okay with
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1 excluding fire pumps. We just want to make

2 sure that there being no reason, principally

3 lower price, for somebody to buy a fire pump

4 and use it for some other purpose.

5 And I'd like to establish that you

6 industry folks are confident that people

7 aren't going to be buying fire pumps in order

8 to avoid perhaps a slightly higher cost of a

9 pump that does meet the regulations. 

10 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. You want me

11 to answer?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Al. Al

13 Huber. 

14 MR. HUBER: Okay. It won't be

15 less expensive. UL/FM pumps are very

16 expensive because you have to do a lot of

17 testing, a lot of certification work, and you

18 have to maintain those confrontations. So if

19 you have those listings and you do those

20 things then you do not, you know, generally it

21 would not be used in municipal service.

22 The other thing is that --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Pause just for a

2 second. I want to note for the record that

3 four or five manufacturers in the room are

4 nodding their heads in agreement with you. 

5 Now, proceed.

6 MR. HUBER: So, now I've got to

7 get back on.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm sorry to

9 interrupt. I thought that was important.

10 MR. HUBER: Three hours sleep, I'm

11 a little slow. But well, there's a lot of

12 cost involved with those.

13 But also they're not as efficient

14 by design. They're not meant to be. They

15 have to -- because if you visualize a curve,

16 BEP let's call it in the middle, we will set

17 the parameter for the design condition, say

18 500 gpm to the left because the pump has to --

19 by NFPA 20 has to be able to pump at 150

20 percent of whatever that rating is. 

21 So you set it to the left which is

22 away from efficiency and you have to certify
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1 it on both of these points. And neither one

2 of them have anything to do with efficiency.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: And let me return

4 to Gary.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary,

6 California IOUs. Thanks, Al. You've assured

7 us that there's no reason to expect there

8 might be a loophole here. Thank you.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Either Joanna or

10 Meg, one of the two of you. Meg.

11 MS. WALTNER: Well, I was just

12 going to follow up and ask. So you said those

13 costs were associated with certification or

14 associated with meeting NFPA 20?

15 MR. HUBER: Associated with

16 certification.

17 MS. WALTNER: So, theoretically a

18 pump can meet NFPA 20 without those additional

19 costs.

20 MR. HUBER: That is correct.

21 MS. WALTNER: And then would be

22 potentially a substitute for an inline pump.
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1 MR. HUBER: That is correct. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to clarify,

3 does anybody object to "fire pumps (meet NFPA

4 20)." Is that descriptive and does that work

5 for everyone? Yes, I see a few heads saying

6 yes. Steve Rosenstock.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just to also

8 support the exclusion. In DOE's rulemaking

9 which included fire pump motors when they

10 looked at increasing the efficiency of the

11 fire pump motor they looked at two efficiency

12 levels. And the paybacks ranged using

13 national average values rates of about 3,000

14 to 11,000 years. So, yes.

15 (Laughter)

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I can't believe you

17 remembered that. That is so arcane. Gary.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary,

19 California IOUs. So, I think we're at a point

20 where there's still some confusion here. 

21 Meeting the 20 certification does

22 not incur additional costs necessarily, but
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1 the certification does. So, if we want to be

2 really sure that we've not created a loophole

3 we need to hook our regulation exemption into

4 the certification. Going back to Meg's point.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, go ahead.

6 MR. POWERS: I don't agree with

7 that. In simple terms the manufacturer is

8 bound by a lot of regulations when it comes to

9 fire pumps. One of them is called the legal

10 side. So, what goes into the design in a lot

11 of cases is a heavier, more robust, because

12 again, it has to run. It cannot not run,

13 right? Whether it's an offshore platform

14 that's going to melt down or something else,

15 these units have to run, or a building like

16 this.

17 Again, what I think is important

18 is, and it got back to what Steve brought up,

19 is you'll find a redundancy in these units

20 where you'll have an electric motor and then

21 the rest of them are engine drives, right? 

22 Because they don't want to rely on the power
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1 of the building if it goes down, or the site. 

2 They need to have other backup systems and

3 such. 

4 So then you're getting away from

5 the efficiency factor of the motor, right? So

6 I mean, you know. 

7 And so again I think the statement

8 wants to be fire pumps. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

10 MR. ADIN: I mean, that's getting

11 in part to the physical characteristics of the

12 pump too. I mean, there are elements that we

13 could identify that are characteristic of a

14 fire pump that would make them just

15 impractical for someone who just wants a clean

16 water pump to opt for that kind of pump in

17 place of whatever they would otherwise use

18 that we're trying to cover. 

19 I mean, I think that's part of

20 what we're dealing with. It's not just cost

21 or certification or whatever it is.

22 You know, what's inherently
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1 different about these things that makes them

2 impractical for that kind of substitution.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? No?

4 MR. HUBER: Well, yes. You can

5 have a pump that may meet NFPA 20, and you may

6 be using it for something else. It may just

7 be one of those flukes that happens to hit it. 

8 Sometimes it does. Not often, but sometimes

9 it does. 

10 There are a lot of parameters

11 written in NFPA 20 that give you things that

12 you do have to do. You have to be able to

13 lift 15 feet at 150 percent. You know,

14 there's a lot of things you have to be able to

15 do. They're all defined there, very well

16 defined.

17 But what's -- it is very

18 prohibitive to be competitive in, say, the

19 municipal market or industrial market with a

20 fire pump because it's just not -- it's not

21 economically feasible, quite frankly. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

2 Cappellino, ITT. Could we simply say "fire

3 pumps - pumps sold for firefighting

4 application?"

5 MR. HUBER: Well, that could be --

6 yes, I suppose. That could be any pump.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: We kind of infer

8 that in the first line. You know, solids

9 handling, wastewater. Those are kind of

10 applications. 

11 MR. HUBER: Application-specific,

12 yes.

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: So you could --

14 MR. HUBER: -- firefighting or

15 fire service.

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Fire service,

17 right. I mean, it's a safety, reliability --

18 MR. HUBER: You could say that.

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- related issue.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. I

22 think we actually need to be a little more
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1 specific on that. 

2 DOE has trouble with definitions

3 that, you know, like you can just say your

4 pump is designed for firefighting

5 applications. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Are we trying to do

7 that now?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, no. So, one

9 of the things, if we wanted to we could

10 generally agree that we want to exclude these

11 and then work on the definitions later, maybe

12 in some other setting. So there's options

13 here.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's where I

15 thought we were. I thought we basically want

16 to look at this list and see if we generally

17 think that these are, one, descriptive, and

18 two, categorically wish to be excluded. And

19 that's where we are right now. 

20 So I'm casting my eyes around the

21 room. Do we think these are generally

22 descriptive? Yes. And do we want to exclude
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1 these to the best of our thinking at this

2 moment? Yes? Okay, so we're moving on. 

3 Lucas.

4 MR. ADIN: Briefly, before we move

5 on, I just wanted to broaden the loophole

6 question a little bit more and to make sure we

7 don't have a similar perspective issue with

8 any of these other items on the list. 

9 I don't know how likely that is to

10 happen compared with fire pumps. Fire pumps

11 seem to be relatively well classified but I

12 mean, any of these others, ASME chemical

13 pumps, for example. I mean, is there any

14 possible for substitution or modification of

15 otherwise covered pumps into that category,

16 that kind of thing?

17 MR. HUBER: It's not likely. 

18 Again, it's a matter of cost.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

20 MR. HUBER: I'm sorry.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no, I need to

22 keep doing this because we want the record to
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1 be pristine.

2 MR. HUBER: Right. It's a matter

3 of cost.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I feel like I'm

5 being rude but I've got to do it.

6 MR. HUBER: That's okay. It's

7 just a matter of cost. It's just not

8 competitive in the marketplace. 

9 So nobody is -- I'm not going to

10 say nobody would ever do it. There are people

11 that do silly things every day, okay? But

12 nobody practically would buy an API 610 pump,

13 or an ASME chemical pump to pump water because

14 it's just not practical. And it's going to

15 cost them too much so they would never do

16 that.

17 They would never buy a

18 self-priming pump to pump -- sometimes they do

19 if they have a particular application of clean

20 water where they have to lift the water way

21 high, but efficiency is out the window at that

22 point anyway. 
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1 So really there's no particular --

2 and nobody's going to use wastewater pumps

3 because they're designed to pump wastewater. 

4 So they're not going to be using those to pump

5 clean water. So if clean water ends up being

6 where we're headed these things being excluded

7 is not a problem.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. Doug

9 Potts.

10 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American

11 Water. Yes, as a purchaser, an end user of

12 pumps I definitely agree. I mean we wouldn't

13 buy an API pump. I'm sure that's a more

14 expensive pump and wouldn't meet our needs. 

15 We wouldn't buy a chemical pump to

16 pump water. Those are usually positive

17 displacement pumps anyhow. Although I guess

18 there are centrifugal but it wouldn't meet our

19 needs. So I agree with what you're saying.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

21 MR. STARR: The only thing I was

22 thinking is you might need to define what
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1 clean water is. I think the Europeans had

2 some definition of that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Well, I think

4 we're going to have to double back on fluids

5 and clean water. Meg and then to Steve.

6 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. I

7 think the one category that could use further

8 definition beyond what we've just discussed is

9 wastewater sump, slurry and solid handling

10 pumps. I mean we agreed conceptually that we

11 want to exclude those, but exactly what

12 defines those pumps rather than just the

13 application to the extent we can.

14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson

15 Pump. I think what we said in our discussions

16 with you guys is that it's something that's

17 pumping solids. 

18 And clean water was defined as

19 clean, clear water and gray water which is

20 treated water but it doesn't have solids in

21 it, or to any great degree. So I mean, it's

22 more or less a solids handling type pump that
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1 we had in mind.

2 MS. WALTNER: I guess my question

3 is are there characteristics of the pump

4 itself we can define that --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think we're

6 going to do all those definitions at this

7 point.

8 MS. WALTNER: We don't need to --

9 MR. HUBER: Yes, no, I don't think

10 so. Because we talk about eye areas and sizes

11 and those kind of things. But we talk about

12 that also in clean water pumps too. So I

13 mean, I think it would be different.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve is next and

15 then to you, Greg.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a thought. 

17 Maybe it's getting a little too much in the

18 weeds but I'm thinking of some, I'll say some

19 residential solar systems that have water with

20 glycol in it for freeze protection. 

21 Solar thermal systems sometimes

22 have that in the north and there might be
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1 other -- is that -- would that be considered

2 a chemical pump, or is that considered -- what

3 kind of pump would that be?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.

5 MR. BARBOUR: I would say at least

6 from what we see for applications that would

7 be the same as clean water.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

9 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

10 Grundfos. I think to answer Meg's question

11 and really as we've discussed about

12 definitions I think there are some existing

13 work out there. 

14 The original recommendation from

15 HI was to focus on harmonizing with what has

16 occurred in the EU already with their Lot 11

17 and their clean water pumps.

18 And as we move forward in

19 definitions they've done some other work on

20 trying to categorize and describe and define

21 wastewater slurry solids handling pumps. And

22 they have found issues and problems in trying
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1 to cover that as well too. 

2 So, again, not to start working on

3 definitions that -- I think there are some

4 existing documents and work that's already

5 been done that will help define that better.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. That's

7 helpful. Good, good. We've made good

8 progress on these.

9 Any final comments on exclusions? 

10 Because I think we should go to lunch. What

11 do you think? Additional, final comments? 

12 And if we need to talk about it more we can

13 resume here where we left off. But maybe

14 we'll move onto the next slide. Bob Barbour.

15 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with

16 TACO. I just want to make sure that we're

17 talking about these exclusions, that we're

18 probably going to be adding more to it from

19 some of the other product categories as we go

20 forward.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MR. BARBOUR: This is not just the
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1 scope of exclusions.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: This is a

3 preliminary list. To me these would be

4 perhaps the obvious ones, right?

5 MR. BARBOUR: Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

8 Cappellino, ITT. So could we simply add the

9 words "but not limited to" in the text there? 

10 To address Bob's --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's a

12 good placeholder.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: In which text?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I consulted

15 with Emily. She said that the definitions,

16 the two pages of possible definitions and the

17 general description of pump components, that

18 that's been sent to each of you via email so

19 you can take a peek at those over lunch.

20 Also, if you have specific

21 preemption questions that you want to put to

22 the General Counsel's Office try to -- if you
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1 could write them down before you go to lunch

2 and we can hand those off and see if by the

3 end of the day maybe we can get some progress

4 on that, or maybe it will take longer. But

5 let's see if we can get this information flow

6 going here.

7 So it's now 12:30. We've made

8 good progress already this morning. Let's

9 take an hour for lunch which means we'll

10 resume at 1:30. 

11 Once again, those of you joining

12 us via the Web, thank you for joining us. 

13 Hope this has been productive. 

14 A reminder, you must wear this

15 badge visible. This room will be locked or it

16 will be attended so you can leave your stuff. 

17 You might need an ID to get back through the

18 security portal at the big cafeteria 100 yards

19 that way. A few of you don't know the ropes

20 here. I don't recognize a few of you, so

21 follow the crowd.

22 There's also a Subway shop with a
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1 Dunkin' Donuts almost directly beneath us on

2 the ground floor. Go the ground floor, 100

3 yards in that direction, up two flights of

4 stairs, that's the cafeteria. We'll see you

5 back here at 1:30.

6 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

7 went off the record at 12:32 p.m. and went

8 back on the record at 1:41 p.m.)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: When we left for

10 lunch we were finishing up on exclusions,

11 slide number 6. Any additional thoughts on

12 slide 6 before we move to slide 7?

13 And I know that you all had a

14 chance to review those edits to the

15 definitions over lunch so we'll return to

16 that. Let's go to slide 7, scope discussion

17 parameters.

18 And this, what you see in the

19 shaded box here is the bulk of the HI proposal

20 if I'm not mistaken. Greg Case.

21 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. Before

22 we leave slide 6 we'd also like to exclude
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1 positive displacement pumps.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: What are those? I

3 noticed that there, for example, and the

4 colorful slide above in your packet --

5 MR. CASE: Yes.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: -- positive

7 displacement are included as a possible no in

8 this prospective possible scope. So positive

9 displacement you'd like to add.

10 MR. CASE: Correct.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Is there a

12 rationale? Mark.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem. 

14 It's a non-water pump typically. And it's

15 also not a centrifugal pump. So they just

16 don't fit the classifications that we're

17 talking about.

18 MR. POWERS: It can be a piston.

19 MR. HANDZEL: It's typically a

20 piston.

21 MR. POWERS: It can be a

22 progressive cavity.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck. Piston,

2 gravity.

3 MR. HUBER: It's usually very

4 viscous liquids.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, say it again.

6 MR. HUBER: Sorry. Al Huber,

7 Patterson. It's for viscous liquids.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Explain viscous.

9 MR. HUBER: Come on.

10 (Laughter)

11 MR. HUBER: These guys are bright.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, viscous.

13 MR. HUBER: So that's what they're

14 designed for. They're really not designed for

15 what we're anticipating having a rulemaking

16 on. So I don't see why we wouldn't go ahead

17 and exclude those up front.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: The energy

19 efficiency coalition caucus would be

20 interested if there are a whole lot of them in

21 production and out there in use that they'd

22 want to know that.
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1 MR. HUBER: I don't think there

2 are.

3 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg Waltner. 

4 I think this is consistent with our discussion

5 before.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. HUBER: Yes, we were already

8 in agreement with the NGOs that this list that

9 we've so far put up there and including

10 positive displacement that we weren't going to

11 exclude those.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Gary

13 Fernstrom.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

15 IOUs. I'd just like to make the observation

16 that there are some high-pressure clean water

17 piston pumps, probably not enough to worry

18 about.

19 But going back to these

20 parameters, I know that circulators are still

21 on the table and we're waiting to learn about

22 the market and the energy-saving potential. 
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1 But many of them are below 1 horsepower. So

2 I want to make sure that this parameter

3 doesn't at this point preclude fractional

4 horsepower circulators until we make a

5 decision on them.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

7 Doug? Oh, Steve Rosenstock.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

9 EEI. Again, to kind of follow up. Where it

10 said the parameters about one to two hundred

11 horsepower hydraulic power at the BEP, is that

12 separate from if there's the motor horsepower

13 rating? I'm just kind of curious how -- what

14 the relationship. 

15 If we have a 1 horsepower which is

16 a hydraulic-powered BEP what would be the

17 typical size of a motor that's driving that 1

18 horsepower at BEP?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I saw both

20 Chuck and Al. Either one of you. Al.

21 MR. HUBER: Originally that is not

22 part of the HI proposal. We never put that in
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1 there. We just said one to two hundred

2 horsepower.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, Alison

4 Williams, LBNL. It was in HI's framework

5 comments so we can change it. But just to be

6 clear, it was requested by HI at some point.

7 MR. HUBER: Was it? Okay.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: What does it mean? 

9 Can you answer Steve's question?

10 MR. HUBER: What does it mean? 

11 Well, it means that that is the horsepower

12 required by the pump at its best efficiency

13 point.

14 So, normally if you were offering

15 a pump you would be beyond that range and so

16 you would probably have a 250 horsepower pump,

17 or motor.

18 MR. POWERS: And in pump designs

19 there's a couple of terminologies used,

20 specific speed, suction specific speed, and a

21 lot of other factors, rise to shutoff. 

22 And the bottom line is you can
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1 have certain pumps that can have a higher

2 horsepower at shutoff than you could out on

3 the curve and vice versa.

4 So when it comes back to Steve's

5 question would you have a motor exactly 200

6 horsepower if that was the BEP point? 

7 Probably not. Right? 

8 And even in motor designs, even in

9 motor designs they have service factors and

10 all that. And if you say I'm buying a 100

11 horsepower motor chances are if you did a true

12 test on it and looked at losses and all it

13 might be 103 horsepower, but they rated it

14 100, right? And stuff like that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, thank you. 

16 That was helpful. That was good. Okay.

17 So, do you want to leave that

18 clause in there or try and remove it? We'll

19 leave it in says Mark? Okay? Okay.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Nodding heads again.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, okay. Trying

22 to capture this. Charlie Cappellino.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

2 Cappellino, ITT. On the temperature range the

3 wording that we've used in the past is the

4 word design, design temperature range. And

5 that helps us distinguish between what the

6 product is designed for versus the actual

7 application temperature. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I guess that

9 makes sense. Louis Starr.

10 MR. STARR: I was actually just

11 talking to Greg asking if that's the same as

12 it is in the European Union in terms of if

13 they use some kind of kilowatt. If they're

14 doing the same thing at hydraulic power at

15 BEP. It's just mainly just so that, you know.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. 

17 They're not. Their definitions I'm pretty

18 sure specifically say shaft power.

19 MR. STARR: So that's the

20 difference. It's brake horsepower in the

21 European, so this one essentially would give

22 you a little more room.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: My understanding

2 was that HI wanted this because every -- it is

3 known for every pump. Like you can always

4 measure hydraulic power whereas if you're not

5 actually measuring the pump shaft power then

6 it's harder to classify. But apparently

7 they're -- I don't know what the reason is

8 now.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

10 MR. HUBER: Well, none of us --

11 excuse me, Al Huber, Patterson. None of us

12 recall.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So I don't know. I

14 can't answer it for you.

15 (Laughter)

16 MR. HUBER: I've got to tell you

17 that I don't know that we have a problem

18 either way.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

20 MR. HUBER: However, you probably

21 reduce the number of pumps that you would have

22 in your field.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: With hydraulic? 

2 MR. HUBER: Yes.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Wouldn't you have a

4 larger number of pumps? 

5 MR. HUBER: No, I don't think so.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's Alison. 

7 Al, you say no.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: If you have 200

9 horsepower shaft power -- thank you.

10 MR. HUBER: Well, no, shaft power

11 you would have more.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: No. If you have

13 200 horsepower shaft power then your hydraulic

14 power would be lower, correct? 

15 MR. HUBER: Correct.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: So you would be

17 limiting the scope farther by using a shaft

18 input power limit than by using a hydraulic

19 power limit.

20 MR. HUBER: Yes, you're correct.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Al. 

22 Okay.
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1 MR. POWERS: I think we ought to

2 protect ourselves from making decisions within

3 the first 5 minutes after lunch.

4 (Laughter)

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Chuck. 

6 Let me once again try and get you to start

7 saying your names again here. I like the free

8 flow of it. We want to have a good record. 

9 Doug, you want in here?

10 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American

11 Water. Just a question or clarification. Is

12 not hydraulic horsepower the same as water

13 horsepower and therefore efficiency is not

14 even part of that measurement?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.

16 MR. POTTS: So really this should

17 say shaft horsepower or brake horsepower?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, it depends on

19 what -- sorry, Alison Williams. It depends on

20 what scope you want to go after, right? I

21 mean, it's just limiting your segment and the

22 hydraulic power is the broadest. Shaft input
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1 power is next, and motor horsepower would be

2 the most limiting I would think. 

3 MR. POTTS: Fair enough.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

5 MR. STARR: So I think I'd be in

6 favor of trying to harmonize the European

7 standard and the U.S. so that you don't have

8 pumps filtering from one area to the next and

9 for manufacturers to manufacture the same

10 thing in both markets.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just float

12 this. We talked about this in the first

13 meeting in December. 

14 Clearly HI's proposal tries to

15 harmonize with the European Lot 11. Is that

16 also an objective of other members of the

17 working group? 

18 Yes? I see some industry members

19 nodding their heads. Anybody that doesn't

20 think that's a good idea? That doesn't mean

21 that we couldn't exceed it. But just as a

22 global statement, as kind of a general concept
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1 I thought it would be useful to see if anybody

2 doesn't seem to think that harmonizing with

3 the EU and what they've done makes sense. 

4 I'm seeing no objections to that. 

5 Just as a notation. Okay. Greg Case. Oh,

6 Gary Fernstrom.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

8 IOUs.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: -- extended

10 statement there, right?

11 MR. FERNSTROM: I did. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: If we wind up

14 including circulators there has been some

15 concern expressed by industry and TACO that

16 maybe the European approach to how their

17 performance is valued isn't appropriate here. 

18 So, harmonization may not be appropriate in

19 that case.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Great, great. 

21 Okay. Greg. Pardon me, our TACO

22 representative, Bob, wants to follow on. Bob
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1 Barbour.

2 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from

3 TACO. I just wanted to thank you for

4 remembering our statements from the last

5 meeting.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Now Greg Case.

7 MR. CASE: We're looking through

8 our May 2 letter back and we see one to two

9 hundred horsepower, not hydraulic horsepower

10 in there. So we'll have to do some further

11 research, but I think we meant one to two

12 hundred shaft horsepower, the motor that would

13 be attached to this load.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Just for the record

15 my money's on Alison's memory.

16 (Laughter)

17 MR. CASE: We're looking through a

18 document, so. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, other

20 comments on these parameters. We haven't had

21 any comment yet on 2 and 4 pole only, or 6

22 inch and smaller bowl diameter. Steve
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1 Rosenstock.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Two and four pole

3 motor, right, we're talking about?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry, pumps

5 designed for running at 2 or 4 pole motors. 

6 Yes.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. And my

8 other question is are there any restrictions

9 on -- these look like the one to two hundred

10 horsepower is kind of for the electric

11 drivers.

12 What if we have a non-electric

13 driver? What kind of -- is there any sort of

14 energy input parameter? Or is it anything?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. 

16 We have not had any proposals on that subject.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because under the

18 definition it could be -- we could have

19 non-electric drivers obviously. So as far as

20 I'm concerned, hey, if you want any size, fine

21 with me. But I'm just saying.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, so this
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1 scope, right, is for the scope of the

2 rulemaking today. And I guess it hasn't

3 necessarily been decided yet whether or not

4 engines would be included in this rulemaking. 

5 

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. But where

7 we did kind of the definitions before a driver

8 could be anything, electric or non-electric.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct, but that

10 is the broader definition for a covered

11 product. In this discussion it should be

12 about the standards that you are working to

13 set in this committee. So, I mean maybe

14 that's another issue that should be crossed

15 down the road.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

17 MR. HUBER: On the question 2 and

18 4 pole, we noticed that in the most recent

19 survey that was sent out, I guess it's dated

20 the 23rd which asked for the responses by the

21 22nd which we found a little unusual. But you

22 asked for 1,200 rpm.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Alison

2 Williams. We included an extra space because

3 we do not know if everyone agrees to 2 and 4

4 pole or not. So we thought it would be

5 prudent to ask for an expanded scope in case

6 someone wants to consider that.

7 MR. HUBER: Well, why don't we

8 find that out now before --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: That's a good idea.

10 MR. HUBER: Because this is very

11 -- and I might as well, this is probably a

12 good time to tell you this. You'll probably

13 not get these surveys back for another 3 or 4

14 weeks. Because most of us, it takes a lot of

15 time to pull all this data in.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: We have some of

17 them. But thank you.

18 MR. HUBER: Some of us are not

19 able to do it that quickly.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: But Al, thanks for

21 that. So, do we need to confirm? I guess we

22 just received a request to confirm 2 and 4
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1 pole motors only. Charlie Cappellino.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: I looked up the

3 EU regulation and it's shaft horsepower. So

4 I didn't know if that was still an open

5 question or not. Shaft power, excuse me. 

6 Shaft power. Not hydraulic power.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And Alison,

8 earlier I believe she said hydraulic would be

9 a broader, more encompassing term. Is shaft

10 the way you'd like to have this descriptor? 

11 A few of you are nodding yes. Any objections

12 to shaft as the descriptor? Steve Rosenstock.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Not an objection,

14 just an adder. Or non-electric equivalent.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, any

16 objection to that?

17 MR. POWERS: Yes, I have a

18 question.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Chuck.

20 MR. POWERS: Back to what Steve

21 just said. This is pump parameters, correct? 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: You've got to speak
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1 louder, Chuck.

2 MR. POWERS: This is pump

3 parameters.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

5 MR. POWERS: Doesn't really matter

6 what the driver is.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: That's true. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: That's correct. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, it is.

11 MR. POWERS: This is pump. So

12 it's the power of the pump, and the driver of

13 the pump, and the speed of the pump. Drivers

14 could be after that anything.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

17 IOUs. So, we're reaching out to specify 2 and

18 4 pole only. Maybe some of the motor experts

19 in the room can share whether or not that

20 would accommodate PM/ECM motors of all types

21 that might be in that niche that we want to

22 look at as an extended product or whatever we
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1 choose to call it.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.

3 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal

4 Beloit. I think with our PM motors we're not

5 limited by 2 and 4 pole speed -- motor would

6 be. So if you're asking about whether or not

7 the 2 and 4 pole would cover PM I wouldn't say

8 that our PMs would be outside of the 2 and 4.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, my point is

10 I am speculating that PM/ECM motors may not be

11 of what you would classically call 2 or 4 pole

12 design. So, I don't know that we want to say

13 2 and 4 pole only because that would preclude

14 our inclusion of that type of motor.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, go ahead.

16 MR. STARR: So, perhaps 2 and 4

17 pole of an induction motor. And then that

18 would leave the other parameter open.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Good suggestion

20 and resolution. How about we say 2 and 4

21 pole.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: So, sorry, Alison
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1 Williams. I mean, my question would be should

2 it really be pumps designed for 3,600 to 1,800

3 rpm or something like that. Because if you're

4 talking about induction only you might be --

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

6 IOUs. If we say induction only that could

7 further limit it. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

9 MR. HUBER: This is -- using 1,800

10 and 3,600 for the normal water pump is good. 

11 I mean, that's fine and that's what we were

12 anticipating.

13 If you get into circulators the

14 PCM motors are all over the map. I mean, it

15 could be rated at 2,900. It could be rated at

16 3,200. It could be rated at all kind of

17 things. 

18 Which is one reason the HI always

19 felt that circulators should be considered as

20 a separate rulemaking. Because there's a lot

21 of things that apply to it that don't apply to

22 regular water pumps.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: It seemed like 2

2 and 4 pole only -- motors only was close but

3 then there were these exceptions. Can that be

4 expanded to -- in a way that we get clarity? 

5 Mark?

6 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem. 

7 I mean, the way that this was written

8 obviously for the bigger water pumps we're

9 using a base motor that has a max rated speed

10 in that range of 1,800 or 3,600.

11 And obviously if there's a

12 variable speed drive installed as the

13 controls, you know, those are going to operate

14 even less than those speeds. But it's really

15 the base motor speed that dictates it. 

16 So Alison's doing some typing up

17 there, pumps designed for max speeds. And

18 we've just got to clarify it that way, that

19 that's the max speed and not the speed it's

20 always going to operate at.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Say that again, Al?

22 MR. HUBER: Base.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

2 IOUs. I think if we specify the speed and not

3 the motor design we've solved a problem.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Meg.

5 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, NRDC. 

6 Al, you made the point that those parameters

7 wouldn't apply to circulators. I wonder if as

8 we're discussing these parameters if this is

9 specifically for Lot 11 pumps and then we can

10 have the circulator parameter discussion

11 separately. Rather than trying to tweak these

12 now depending on what we do with circulators. 

13 Is that -- we're on the same page?

14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Al. Thank

16 you, Al.

17 MR. HUBER: Yes, that's what we're

18 saying. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: The answer is yes. 

20 So these parameters fit with the HI proposal. 

21 That's what you just said, right? Did I hear

22 you correctly?
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1 MS. WALTNER: So I said these

2 parameters should be for Lot 11 pumps which is

3 the HI proposal, yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, thank

5 you. Now to Bob Barbour.

6 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with

7 TACO. I would tend to agree with Meg's

8 statement because obviously we still feel that

9 the circulator should be treated as a separate

10 rulemaking as I've said numerous times before. 

11 Just because of the complexities involved that

12 we have with circulators that are outside of

13 what we're looking at with these commercial

14 industrial pumps. And I agree that we should

15 try to make it a separate discussion if we

16 can.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. 

18 That was the intent of this slide was to focus

19 on Lot 11. So I think it would be great if we

20 could do that.

21 And I just wanted to follow up on

22 the shaft power just to make sure you guys are
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1 okay with it. In your May 2 response it says:

2 "since hydraulic power is a value that can be

3 determined for all pumps it might be a better

4 selection than shaft power. Consider a close

5 coupled and suction pump. There is no way to

6 measure the shaft power but hydraulic power

7 can be measured. The same would be true for

8 pumps driven directly in engine shaft or by a

9 hydraulic motor."

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel said

11 somebody smart wrote that, for the record. 

12 (Laughter)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Page 25. 

14 MS. WILLIAMS: You're welcome to

15 change it, obviously. I just want to --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Alison. 

17 Now, Paul, hang on a second and let Al respond

18 to that. I'm coming back to you. Al Huber.

19 MR. HUBER: Well, I'm back to the

20 speed. I think --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: You're back in

22 speed?
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1 MR. HUBER: Yes, so that we don't

2 -- we don't want to make a mistake. Actually,

3 the pumps don't run at 1,800 and 3,600.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, nominal.

5 MR. HUBER: So, we've got to say

6 nominal. 

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Nominal base.

8 MR. HUBER: The easiest way to do

9 it is to say 2 pole, 4 pole, nominal.

10 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers from

11 Flowserve. The reason is, I was mentioning

12 this to Al, is if you say nominal, you say 2

13 and 4. Two and four will be 1,800 and 3,600,

14 right? So that covers that.

15 The second thing is based on the

16 pumps that we include in this lot, like

17 submersibles or others, right, they're not

18 going to run. I mean, they have even a much

19 slower speed. They're still 2 and 4 pole but

20 it's just based on the nominal speed of that

21 design.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Paul, do you
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1 want to follow on? Paul Lin.

2 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal

3 Beloit. I was just going to highlight that

4 same point is that on an induction motor

5 because of slip we don't run at 1,800 rpm.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, what have we

7 got.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, is nominal okay

9 with the rpms? Because if you go back to

10 poles are you still running into the concern

11 about the induction motor? Like is this okay,

12 or no?

13 MR. POWERS: My opinion is if you

14 say pump design for nominal speed for 2 and 4

15 pole you're covered. You can't make any

16 mistakes.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: But other people

18 have concerns about that limiting it to

19 induction motors.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, follow on and

21 then I'm going to Gary.

22 MR. HUBER: I want to be clear
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1 here. We're not doing this to try to

2 eliminate circulators, all right? Because we

3 believe that it just needs to be done

4 separately, that's all. Because things don't

5 apply there that apply here and vice versa. 

6 It would be much easier and simpler to write

7 it that way.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. I

9 just want to say ECMs can be used with pumps

10 other than circulators. So you don't

11 necessarily want to accidentally exclude

12 something.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, if you were

14 to -- so, how would it read if it were to

15 include circulators? Gary.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

17 IOUs. Let me go to Chuck's point. I think if

18 we say pumps designed for nominal 2 and 4 pole

19 speeds, that's fine. It doesn't specify 2 and

20 4 pole motors, it just references the speeds

21 associated with it.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.
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1 MR. ADIN: Just a quick comment

2 just to clarify that even a little bit

3 farther, at least as far as I understand it.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

5 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE, sorry. 

6 There is a specific nominal speed that is

7 associated with the operation of a 2 pole

8 induction motor. And so I think that's really

9 what we're trying to say. 

10 It could be another type of motor,

11 it's just the speed that is understood to be

12 the nominal speed at which a 2 pole or 4 pole

13 induction motor runs.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So --

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So, is this good? 

16 Pumps designed for --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison Williams.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm sorry. Pumps

19 designed for nominal 2 and 4 pole speeds.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Everybody

21 comfortable with that? Yes? 

22 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr
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1 with NEEA. So, are we going to have a

2 follow-up discussion on circulators? I think

3 there was some -- I don't think Meg was

4 suggesting that we wait another 3 years for

5 circulator. I think she suggested we'd wait

6 another 30 minutes. 

7 (Laughter)

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, go on, follow

9 on.

10 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. I was

11 just suggesting for this discussion we're

12 talking about Lot 11 pumps. I wasn't saying

13 that we shouldn't talk about circulators.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And then

15 circulators, we'll need to dive in however

16 deep we need to dive for circulators. Tom

17 Eckman.

18 MR. ECKMAN: Doug, it might be

19 helpful if we just -- it says up there for Lot

20 11 pumps. I think if we state clearly this is

21 for only Lot 11 pumps. And we can decide

22 whether there's another parameter list for
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1 other things. But this pertains to the Lot 11

2 group only.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: This is starting to

4 be like my legislative experience. It's kind

5 of a dangerous --

6 MR. ECKMAN: But it does refresh

7 everybody's memory that we're not talking

8 about other things other than this. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good

10 clarification. Yes, Chuck.

11 MR. POWERS: A couple of points to

12 think about also. So, in my mind when I'm

13 looking at this list we need to remove, I

14 talked about before, the very last line that

15 says VT-S. We need to either put the HI

16 nomenclature or remove that altogether.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: What is VT-S?

18 MR. POWERS: That's I think the

19 DOE's definition. 

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Vertical turbine

21 submersible. It's a VS0.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: So, say why, Chuck.
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1 MR. POWERS: There's other places

2 that was defined. The way I read that, it is

3 6-inch and smaller. I believe it was

4 originally proposed to be 4 and 6 inch, not 6

5 inch and smaller.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob?

7 MR. POWERS: So in other words

8 that's a broad. I think my understanding was

9 it was 4 and 6 inch.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So Chuck, Al's

11 comment is 4 or 6, is that correct? Four or

12 six would do it. Bob?

13 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from

14 TACO. I guess my question on that is aren't

15 there 3-inch pumps? I know some people do

16 offer 3-inch pumps.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, you're next.

18 MR. POWERS: Sorry, Chuck Powers

19 again. I'll try to recommend. In the

20 industry the down hole wells are nominal

21 diameter of 4 and 6 and you know, 8, 10, 12,

22 et cetera. Worldwide. 
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1 So, a 3-inch you could put into a

2 4-inch, but it was nominally said it was a

3 4-inch casing.

4 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from

5 TACO. Why wouldn't the 3-inch be included

6 with the -- if they're going to look at

7 circulators down to such low levels why

8 wouldn't a 3-inch pump be something they'd

9 want to consider?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to resolve

11 this. So I'm trying to -- Bob asked a good

12 question I think. Is this some sort of a

13 classification that if the 4-inch accommodates

14 a 3? What's going on? Chuck.

15 MR. POWERS: Yes, sorry, again. 

16 I'm just trying to clarify. I think the

17 original proposal said 4 and I thought it was

18 and, but or 6-inch. That's all I'm trying to

19 clarify. I'm not trying to get into all the

20 other stuff.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: And clarify that

22 that's consistent with Lot 11.
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1 MR. POWERS: Right.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And that's the

3 reason for that. That's the reason for that.

4 MR. POWERS: And I think also what

5 was trying to say before, you're doing a good

6 job of it but you put nomenclature up there

7 that no one in the world understands. So, if

8 you put HI nomenclature, fine. But if you put

9 VT-S, you know, people won't understand.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: I just added VS0. 

11 I didn't have time to edit the whole deck

12 during the lunch. So hopefully you'll bear

13 with me on this.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so are we

15 going to make it HI, Alison?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: I made it HI. It's

17 there. 

18 MR. POWERS: You need to remove

19 the VT-S.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, it's still

21 relevant for us. Is it a burden for it to be

22 there for you?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you add HI to

2 that cluster there?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Because for, you

4 know, a lot of our purposes we have things

5 classified as that. So if we could retain

6 that that would be helpful to us. And we will

7 maintain the crosswalk.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And at some

9 point when we're doing this crosswalk we need

10 to land on nomenclature that's going to be

11 stable.

12 MR. POWERS: Okay, I'll refer to

13 the European Union nomenclature and others. 

14 They actually call it MSS and you're calling

15 it VT-S. But I guess what the European Union

16 does, they also call it VSO. So if you go to

17 put VSO both groups, both categories are the

18 same.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: What would you

20 recommend we do here, Chuck? Is HI

21 sufficient? 

22 MR. POWERS: HI. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary

2 Fernstrom. Nothing at this point? We're

3 doing well with the parameters here. Lucas.

4 MR. ADIN: I just want to ask a

5 brief clarifying question with respect to the

6 bowl diameter. I don't have a particular

7 objection to what we have up here now. 

8 But when it comes to 4- and 6-inch

9 bowl diameter does that mean that VSO is just

10 4 and 6? Like a 3-inch would not be a VSO, it

11 would be something else? Or it would be

12 outside of Lot 11. Is that --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.

14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

15 To the best of our knowledge it's outside of

16 the EU.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley.

18 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

19 Grundfos. Specifically the EU legislation

20 says submersible multi-stage water pump with

21 a nominal outside diameter of 4-inch or 6-inch

22 designed to operate -- so it specifically
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1 states 4-inch or 6-inch.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

3 MR. HUBER: So we were trying to

4 stay in alignment with the EU. Not that they

5 don't make -- there are some people who make

6 3-inch.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Okay, Al,

8 thank you and thanks to Greg. Now, back to

9 Chuck.

10 MR. POWERS: Yes, and so my

11 purpose of starting this was not to change

12 things. When I read Lot 11 at the top I was

13 just trying to be consistent like what Greg

14 reminded us of and everything, you know,

15 what's out there.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: You were making a

17 clarification. Yes, okay. Okay. 

18 Now, looking at this list of

19 parameters I think -- we didn't say anything

20 about full impeller. Is that okay? Because

21 I think we've covered -- well, we haven't

22 covered 25 gpm and greater or 459 feet of head
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1 maximum. Are those good? 

2 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. Can we

3 go back to bowl diameter for a second?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on just one

5 second.

6 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

8 MR. HANDZEL: We were just talking

9 that we would prefer that Lot 11 not be

10 referenced, that this be referenced more as

11 the Hydraulic Institute recommendation. Just

12 because we're not defining what Lot 11 is

13 anywhere in here. There's no reference back

14 to the EU standard. So it just might make

15 more sense if it was aligned with what the

16 Hydraulic Institute's on-record recommendation

17 is. If that makes sense to everybody.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Does that

19 make sense to everyone? I think it makes

20 sense. Chuck.

21 MR. POWERS: I think the last time

22 we met we talked about segmenting ourselves a
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1 little bit away from the EU's version to come

2 up with our own name. It's even in the notes

3 somewhere. So eventually whatever you guys

4 decide to call it, but something that's our

5 definition.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a theme from

7 the first meeting, we caught it. Okay, now

8 Meg, please.

9 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. I just

10 had a question for one of the manufacturers. 

11 Can you give a little bit of background on the

12 4- and 6-inch bowl diameter and why that was

13 put in the European regulation? And why the

14 other bowl diameter should be excluded.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, are you --

16 yes, Greg Towsley.

17 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

18 Grundfos. I'm going to give you my best

19 guess. That's only what it is.

20 I think because the United States

21 uses the majority of multi-stage water pumps

22 and our nominal casing and pump sizes that we
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1 make, cast iron, steel pipe, 4-6 inch, that's

2 where the designs have essentially started and

3 basically transferred over to the European

4 Union and other places throughout the world.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

6 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes, Greg Towsley,

7 Grundfos. These are typically wells used for

8 drinking water, irrigation, bringing water up

9 out of ground.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: That's the standard

11 diameter. Those are the standard diameters,

12 plural. Of the pipe, the casing, whatever,

13 yes. Chuck.

14 MR. POWERS: Like I said worldwide

15 there's nominal, right? And the nominal has

16 been accepted by the guys that do drilling

17 whether it's in the Middle East, Asia, or

18 wherever. And they go all the way up to

19 20-inch but they're in increments, right?

20 But to the point made before, when

21 you get to 10-inch you start to fall into a

22 lot more heavy industrial mine de-watering and
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1 stuff like that. It's the 4- and 6-inches are

2 very common for the drinking water and those

3 kind of aspects, right? 

4 Because you have deep down

5 borehole pumps that are into the oil and gas,

6 and they have nothing to do with water, stuff

7 like that.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

9 MS. WALTNER: So I guess the

10 follow-up question is defining it so

11 specifically as 4 and 6 rather than less than

12 6, you know, is there a threat of someone

13 coming in with a 3-inch bowl size. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So then how do we

15 -- we want coverage that's sufficient here, I

16 believe, right? So what do we do about that? 

17 Joanna.

18 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. If I

19 could just ask a question. So I think you've

20 explained that the larger bowl diameters

21 typically aren't used for water applications. 

22 What about the 3-inch? What's the typical
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1 application?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel with

4 Xylem. And Greg, you might be able to answer

5 more. But where we typically see the 3-inch

6 is where they're replacing an existing pump

7 and the pipe starts to corrode and you've got

8 to get a new pump down the hole. The 3-inch

9 will fit a lot easier than trying to get a

10 4-inch back down there. So that's where we've

11 seen the application, that it's more of a

12 retrofit product than it is used in a new

13 well.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Interesting. 

15 Lucas, no? Not at this point. Joanna.

16 MS. MAUER: If I could just follow

17 up. So, I guess is there a rationale for why

18 the 3-inch should be excluded?

19 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

20 It's because the EU excluded it. And we're

21 trying to stay in alignment with Lot 11 so

22 that the regulations would at least be very
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1 similar or very close. That's the reason we

2 picked it if you want to know the truth.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks Al. 

4 Additional comments here? Is it sufficient to

5 say 6-inch and smaller bowl diameter? What

6 have we got. Four and six we said. Is that

7 sufficient for our purposes? Louis.

8 MR. STARR: Well, it sounds like

9 the EU didn't anticipate them making a 3-inch

10 bowl is probably what happened. And so I

11 don't know. It just seems like maybe we

12 should pick up the mistake that they made or

13 left out is what I was getting at.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

15 MR. HUBER: Just as a eyeball I

16 think all of our membership as far as we're

17 concerned if you want to go 6-inch and smaller

18 it would be okay. We don't have a problem

19 with it.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas Adin.

21 MR. ADIN: It's not a significant

22 point, but I mean I suppose just along the
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1 same lines as a 3 is it possible that you have

2 5 also for the same reason that a 3 would

3 replace a 4?

4 MR. HUBER: Yes. I don't know,

5 maybe Greg makes those I guess.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Al's latest

7 proposal, just to go straight to that, 6

8 inches or less, right? And you suggested most

9 of your members would probably be okay with

10 that, Al?

11 MR. HUBER: Yes, we're okay with

12 it.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al says okay. 

14 Anybody object to characterizing it? Greg.

15 MR. CASE: Just to follow up. The

16 3-inch models tend to run at higher speeds so

17 we may have to adjust our definition of speed.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that there

19 are a number of individuals in this room that

20 want to be inclusive. So I think 6 inches or

21 less, that would be acceptable to them. So

22 then let's adjust the -- either the rpms or
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1 whatever we need to adjust. Bob. No? Bob

2 Barbour.

3 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from

4 TACO. Why wouldn't you just say 6 inch and

5 smaller?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Or smaller, yes. 

7 That's what I meant to say. Al Huber.

8 MR. HUBER: Well, we may have

9 inadvertently done something. The 3-inch

10 they're telling me can run up to 7,000 rpm, so

11 I don't know. We're getting in an area that

12 we don't have information on and I'm not --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

14 MR. ADIN: But do they have to? I

15 mean, could you have a 3-inch pump that still

16 is restricted by the speed?

17 MR. HUBER: Well, probably they're

18 going to increase the speed because -- so that

19 they could get the head out and the volume out

20 that they need. Because now they're 3-inch

21 instead of 4.

22 MR. ADIN: Right. 
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1 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers again. 

2 I think we're just going around on this and

3 we're taking it way out of context.

4 The deeper you go, the smaller the

5 pump in most cases. Also the hotter. You

6 know, there's all kinds of variations, right.

7 But just to be clear on this if

8 you're going to pump water you're going to be

9 at a certain depth which is not very far. I

10 mean, in our minds 1,500, 2,000 feet might be

11 far, right. But it isn't in the deep well

12 application, right?

13 So, when you're dealing with fresh

14 water that you're going to drink some of the

15 aquifers and stuff that you're going to be

16 going down to are not going to be in the 4-

17 and 6-inch. And then all of a sudden you're

18 going to exceed the 200 horsepower issue. 

19 There's all the factors because you can

20 multi-stage these things and all that.

21 So I think with the European Union

22 when I was reading through their comments and
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1 notes, I think they were trying to be

2 practical and say look, drinking water, 4- and

3 6-inch wells are most common.

4 Yes, you'll have a 3-inch, you

5 might have a 2-inch, but they're going to be

6 rare, right? It's kind of like the engine

7 drive issue. You know, it's just no problem,

8 but it isn't going to be the majority which

9 you're going to deal with. And you're dealing

10 with the U.S.

11 MR. ADIN: So, the general

12 understanding is that 4- and 6-inch

13 encompasses the vast majority of --

14 MR. POWERS: I think if you did a

15 lot of studies you'll find it's the majority

16 of the stuff you're going to see.

17 MR. ADIN: For clean water

18 applications.

19 MR. POWERS: For drinking water

20 and all that, clean water, yes.

21 MR. ADIN: Right, okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: That last exchange
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1 between Lucas and Chuck, thank you. Now, so

2 the proposal on the table is what at this

3 point? Alison, where are we?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I think

5 people have to express whether they care about

6 the 3-inch or not, right?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Gary.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

9 IOUs. So, Lucas, this addresses the same

10 concern we had previously about loopholes. So

11 if we limit it to 4 and 6 is somebody going to

12 make it 3 or 5. I think we should do

13 everything we can to avoid creating loopholes.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So 6 inches or

15 smaller we established earlier was, we think,

16 acceptable to the manufacturers. What do we

17 do about the rpm range? Yes.

18 MR. ADIN: For the record I agree

19 in principle. I think I just wanted to

20 establish where that basis might have been

21 coming from. 

22 But I think one thing that might
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1 be useful is if there is some real practical

2 reason to exclude 3-inch because of this speed

3 thing that we can't get around or something

4 like that, that's at this point I think what

5 we're trying to figure out. And I don't know

6 that we have.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. Pardon

8 me, that was Lucas just then. Now Al Huber. 

9 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

10 If we leave it 6-inch or smaller and leave the

11 2 and 4 pole nominal speeds then it will

12 probably eliminate the 3-inch in most cases. 

13 Not in all cases but in a lot of cases. I

14 mean, it would be a rare factor. 

15 We're not really concerned about

16 it as an industry of somebody trying to get

17 around it because you've got a 4- and 6-inch

18 hole. And that's been the standard practice

19 for I don't know how long, 50, 60, 100 years. 

20 I don't know. So, people are not going to

21 deviate from that a great deal.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

2 IOUs. So, Al, how do you get higher than 2

3 pole speed? What kind of motor might you have

4 turning this 3-inch?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

6 MR. POWERS: I'll speak on my side

7 and I'm sure some others can add. If you have

8 a VFD drive, first off, most of them are

9 capable of going an additional 10 percent that

10 I've been experienced with, right?

11 The next factor is the pump

12 design. I mean, Charlie and I and Al, all of

13 us here, we look at tip speeds and other

14 factors. What is the real limiting going

15 above a 2 pole speed, it's not because the

16 pump can't go faster. There's physical

17 parameters allow it to, but there's

18 limitations.

19 And then it's the motors design is

20 usually 2 pole, things like that. But their

21 VFDs can make it, engine drives can make it

22 faster, gear drives. 
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1 And then just permanent motor

2 designs. There's a lot of factors that can

3 speed up.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, Gary,

5 California, IOUs. That all sounds like good

6 news to me because the faster speed with the

7 VSD sounds potentially more efficient. It

8 isn't.

9 (Laughter)

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So, for the record,

11 Chuck and Greg both said no, it's not.

12 Now, what should we do about the

13 3-inch pumps? Three inch bowl diameter. 

14 Here's what I think I've heard. 

15 Industry folks are saying this is really not

16 going to happen very much. It's a small share

17 of the market. We're not very worried about

18 it.

19 And then of course the energy

20 efficiency advocates, they want to get as much

21 coverage inclusion as possible. They don't

22 want us to create loopholes. So, what should
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1 we do about this? Lucas.

2 MR. ADIN: If I could make a

3 suggestion. I mean, we do have some shipment

4 numbers for these different classes of pumps. 

5 We could look at that and at least give

6 ourselves a rough idea of what we're dealing

7 with in terms of percentage of the market.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me just note

9 before we move on, let's look at the shipment

10 numbers. But we've addressed --

11 MR. ADIN: Just one second I

12 think.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: We don't have

14 shipments that disaggregate down to the 3-, 4-

15 and 6-inch level I don't believe. 

16 MR. ADIN: Alison, that's not what

17 I meant.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

19 MR. ADIN: I just meant for

20 vertical turbine pumps generally and then to

21 the extent we have any general information

22 about -- I don't know if the manufacturers
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1 have a sense of that, it's 4, 6, or what

2 percentage of those might be 3. 

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So it's possible

4 the shipments data we have for vertical

5 turbine submersible are only for 4- and 6-inch

6 because that's probably what the manufacturers

7 reported to us. 

8 MR. ADIN: Okay.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, we

10 can look at them, but.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: On this issue --

13 Gary, California IOUs -- out in California

14 we're worried about the ag pumping

15 opportunity. Are ag pumps typically 6-inch or

16 smaller bowl diameter, or are they bigger than

17 that?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

19 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

20 They range usually 6-inch and up because

21 you're talking about large fields and a lot of

22 volume.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so my

2 concern is that by limiting ourselves to

3 6-inch or smaller we're not looking at that

4 large opportunity that presents itself in

5 areas where there's a lot of ag pumping.

6 MR. POWERS: I don't know if I

7 totally agree --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Chuck

9 speaking.

10 MR. POWERS: Yes, sorry -- with

11 the total approach we're taking here. 

12 If you're talking agricultural now

13 you're going to get back to the concept of

14 fire pumps where you're going to run maybe 3

15 or 4 months a year, right? Your growing

16 season. So you're not a full year.

17 Now, the degree, you know, maybe

18 in Florida there's a longer period of time

19 based on orange groves, but it's not an

20 irrigation factor. There's other factors

21 going. And there's another chart where I'm

22 going to comment too later in the slide deck
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1 on that.

2 In California you have growing

3 seasons that are different in the valleys down

4 there and places like that, no doubt.

5 But when it comes to drinking

6 water, when it comes to the systems we're

7 talking about here I think, you know, we keep

8 going around this. I think the 4- or 6-inch

9 is going to be the majority which you're

10 dealing with on what we're trying to define,

11 right?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it the great

13 majority?

14 MR. POWERS: In the volumes, sure.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

17 IOUs. Well, I agree that drinking water pumps

18 probably fall within this scope. But our

19 concern about agriculture, even though as you

20 point out it may be only 3 or 4 months, it's

21 totally coincident with our peak and it's

22 typically 24 hours a day. 
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1 And it's a load which is of very

2 high cost and concern to us and high-cost to

3 the farmers. It's not unusual for farmers to

4 have 60 or more percent of their cost

5 associated with water pumping and electricity. 

6 So, I want to be sure we don't

7 exclude agricultural pumping from this

8 discussion.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

11 Xylem. So, again, just reiterating what we

12 said before, that this recommendation was made

13 to stay in alignment with the EU

14 recommendation. So, that's why it's limited

15 the way it is. And we're not saying that

16 there aren't other opportunities outside this,

17 but we are staying in alignment.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, right. Yes,

19 Alison.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,

21 LBNL. Sorry. I just wanted to note that in

22 HI's comments on the framework they suggested
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1 that vertical turbines beyond 6-inch bowl

2 assemblies could be added in a subsequent

3 phase 2 addition to capture additional energy

4 savings.

5 So, like Mark said they're trying

6 to align with the EU but it -- there's not

7 necessarily a reason for not excluding some at

8 point in time.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: They're suggesting

10 a phased approach, that this working group,

11 correct me if I'm wrong, this working group

12 take up the HI proposal and deal with that. 

13 And then other products, other classes of

14 products do at some later date, or figure out

15 what to do about it. Gary.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California

17 IOUs. So, okay, you know, we're talking about

18 a separate proceeding maybe for circulators,

19 a phased approach to accommodate agricultural

20 pumping.

21 I'm just concerned about how much

22 time it's going to take to get there. So,
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1 that's not an unreasonable request or

2 compromise to make provided it can be

3 accommodated without a lot of loss of time and

4 energy savings.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas Adin.

6 MR. ADIN: So, just generally

7 speaking I think if we were to arrive at a

8 plan that was based upon a subsequent

9 rulemaking and a commitment to do a rulemaking

10 for -- whether it's for circulators, or these

11 other pumps, or anything else we include as

12 part of that plan whatever our intention is

13 with respect to --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Beyond the scope.

15 MR. ADIN: -- time line, how we're

16 going to commence such an undertaking.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.

18 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from

19 TACO. Speaking for TACO we would certainly

20 make ourselves available if there was another

21 rulemaking that was going forward with some of

22 these other pumps and circulators. 
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1 I mean, I don't want to sit there

2 and have anyone think we're not pro-energy

3 efficiency because we are definitely

4 pro-energy efficiency. That's why so many of

5 our products are actually system- and

6 control-oriented to try to improve the

7 efficiency of the pumps.

8 Because like we've talked about

9 with the Lot 11 group and the extended

10 product, there's so much advantage to be done

11 with control as far as energy efficiency

12 compared to what we're ever going to get out

13 of pump efficiency improvement when you talk

14 about bare pumps.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

16 MR. STARR: So, Louis Starr with

17 NEEA. One thing, and this Lot 11 is probably

18 fine, but in reality it would be nice if we

19 sort of approached this what you're going to

20 look at based on an engineering approach. So

21 you look at how much energy is being used and

22 how much is being saved. 
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1 You know, I don't know how much is

2 planted in Europe as opposed to here but

3 one-third of the crops are grown in

4 California. We're doing a lot more growing

5 stuff whereas they're importing things. So

6 the opportunity for saving energy in an

7 irrigation pump is not as great in Europe. So

8 by adopting Lot 11 we're kind of adopting that

9 we are Europe. 

10 And so while for this rulemaking

11 it's fine, but I think we should also be

12 looking at what the opportunities are as DOE

13 should be looking at it as a process, what

14 opportunities are available and what the

15 cost-effectiveness of those savings are.

16 So in other words, what Gary was

17 kind of talking about, he doesn't know because

18 he hasn't done the energy analysis on it, but

19 it seems like DOE should be looking at that

20 just to see what the scale of opportunities

21 are at this point to maybe help in future

22 rulemakings or if necessary in this
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1 rulemaking.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So the issue of a

3 phased approach has been raised again. There

4 are practical considerations here and I'm

5 wondering how that idea generally squares with

6 members sitting here. 

7 Because we're also thinking about

8 what the duration of this negotiation would

9 be, what the configuration of the test

10 procedure and how that would square with the

11 scope that we have in mind. So I just

12 generally hear what people have to say about

13 a phased approach or not. Al Huber.

14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

15 As far as the manufacturers are concerned, and

16 I believe I speak for all of us, a phased

17 approach is fine with us and we certainly

18 would support it as we've supported this first

19 effort.

20 We think it's the best thing to do

21 because there are differences. And although

22 we don't mind giving data, I've got to tell
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1 you, we've got people busy doing other things

2 besides giving data and this is really

3 becoming a burden for us. 

4 Because it's our engineering

5 departments that are doing it. And it's --

6 sometimes it gets onerous to us. So we'd

7 rather do it in a phased approach and we think

8 it's a wise move. That's the way the

9 Europeans have done it. I think they did that

10 because of that. 

11 And it gives the industry an

12 opportunity to phase in these efforts and

13 their engineering department is not just

14 getting the data for the DOE but also it gives

15 them an opportunity to get the job done and

16 then move onto the next products.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, follow on.

18 MR. POWERS: Yes, and I'd agree. 

19 What I've been trying to focus here is, this

20 is my overall opinion, I think we all

21 adamantly and amicably want to get something

22 done and it's good for everything, number one.
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1 Number two, I think we want to get

2 it done in a reasonable amount of time. I

3 heard from DOE the end of this year or

4 something.

5 We keep dancing around, in my

6 opinion that's what we're doing sometimes. We

7 keep changing stuff, doing whatever, we're

8 going to blossom this into a -- we're going to

9 boil the ocean. 

10 And I totally agree in a way,

11 there's a lot of other products that we could

12 do this with, but I think you need to have a

13 phased approach. And do it with common sense

14 and with facts and a lot of data to make sure

15 we do it correctly, okay?

16 Because when we get to this

17 efficiency issue, we get to this power issue

18 on irrigation, you know. If you take center

19 pivots which you see when you fly across the

20 U.S., okay, that data table that they had in

21 your slide deck there talks about the amount

22 of energy, right. Well, the pump is one piece
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1 of it.

2 You take that center pivot that

3 rotates around and all-electric motor drives,

4 that's where a lot of that power goes to also,

5 not the pump itself. Just there's factors

6 we've got to look at to make sense out of. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

8 MR. POWERS: And just let me

9 finish. What I was trying to get to is when

10 I look down that line of categories if you put

11 10-inch, 12-inch, these other sizes in there,

12 all of a sudden you're going to blow away the

13 head, you're going to blow away the horsepower

14 and you're not going to be within the confines

15 of other stuff. You know what I mean?

16 And by the way, we could put a

17 10-inch up there. Okay, we're going to run it

18 at 14 pole to keep it under the 200 horse and

19 certain things. 

20 Again, I'm just trying to bring

21 the logic. You can't look at one item, you've

22 got to be looking at the whole chart to make
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1 sure we keep it in context.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary

3 Fernstrom.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary,

5 California IOUs. I've indicated an openness

6 to considering a phased approach. I think we

7 need to think about how long that might take

8 and what the energy savings-wise implications

9 are of that time-related delay.

10 However, I'd like to point out

11 that from our first meetings on this subject

12 2 and a half years ago I've consistently

13 indicated that we're interested in circulator

14 pumps. 

15 And I don't think they should

16 summarily be delayed or put in a separate

17 process until we've assessed how much

18 opportunity there is there and have a reason

19 for putting them aside.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Lucas.

21 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. So, I

22 think at least for this particular discussion
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1 we'll maybe finish this and then we can go

2 right into the circulator part of it because

3 obviously that's the next biggest item that we

4 still have yet to address as far as scope.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Should we walk

6 through this?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Tom Eckman

8 first.

9 MR. ECKMAN: Going back to my

10 original comment on why this was only -- this

11 parameter list was pertinent to the HI. We

12 haven't discussed all the other parameters

13 that might be associated with some other

14 classes of pump. So I think for what you guys

15 proposed we want your guidance and comfort

16 that this is the appropriate -- for what your

17 initial proposal was that we've got a pretty

18 good lock on this stuff. That's my view.

19 And then we're going to discuss

20 whether there's other things in scope or not. 

21 But we haven't gotten there yet. I just want

22 to, before we move on make sure that you're
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1 comfortable and we're comfortable with, as you

2 proposed it and had it in your mind is this

3 the right fit for the parameters that the HI

4 folks proposed to begin with.

5 Gary and I have delusions of

6 grandeur about other things and we'll get to

7 those. But before we do let's make sure we're

8 okay here. And then I'm fine to move on.

9 But again, these are circumscribed

10 throughout. Your proposal, does this capture

11 what you want to limit it, you had envisioned

12 it limited to, and then we can discuss whether

13 Gary and I's delusions are possible or not.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: The only thing that

15 I, as I look at the list, we're still unclear

16 about --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, about

18 hydraulic -- did you decide for sure on shaft

19 power?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I think everybody

21 said shaft power. And then we have 6 inches

22 and smaller which seems to be inclusive. But
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1 maybe that screws up your -- Paul Lin.

2 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal

3 Beloit. Does the EU Lot 11 say shaft power at

4 BEP? It doesn't say that, does it? It just

5 says shaft power, right? So, should we strike

6 the BEP?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Alison

8 Williams. We need to know how your pumps are

9 being classified, right? So it's helpful if

10 there's a reference point. Otherwise, how do

11 I know if you're at 120 percent or -- right?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley.

13 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

14 Grundfos again. This is just to throw out

15 what's in the EU regulation. It states a

16 maximum shaft power of 150 kilowatt. So, it

17 does not say BEP.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: So you want it to

19 be max?

20 MR. ADIN: The maximum being just

21 full load or full flow.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, say it for
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1 the record.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

3 Xylem. So the motors are rated in increments,

4 so that's a 200 horsepower motor and that

5 would match up with what the max and the curve

6 requirement would be for a pump. So we

7 couldn't require more than 200 horsepower.

8 MR. ADIN: So it's based on the

9 motor's rated horsepower?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas says based on

11 the motor's rated horsepower.

12 MR. POWERS: And by the way, it's

13 Chuck, just to help if we want to keep a

14 U.S.-centric concept. The 150, a pure

15 calculation of .7457 comes out to 201. So,

16 bear with me. So that, and I'm okay.

17 But the point is the 459 is also a

18 metric modified to feet. And that, you know,

19 that was really supposed to be 140 meters. 

20 And if we want to convert it out.

21 MR. HANDZEL: We converted it. 

22 That's all we did.
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1 MR. POWERS: Just clarification on

2 where these odd numbers are coming from.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison is

4 making the edits as we go along. Joanna.

5 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I'm

6 just unclear, the motor's rated horsepower. 

7 I don't understand how that's -- if you're

8 selling a pump I just don't understand what

9 that means.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

12 Xylem. So you have your pump curve and it has

13 like the further you get on the curve, the

14 greater the horsepower requirement. So what

15 we're saying is that for that entire range of

16 the curve it doesn't go behind 200 horsepower. 

17 Okay?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

20 EEI. It sounds like we're talking about the

21 driver again. And I thought we weren't

22 talking about the driver.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, clarify this

2 for us.

3 MR. HANDZEL: So call it a driver

4 instead of a motor then. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

6 MR. HANDZEL: So whatever, okay?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so that was

8 Mark. So, are we -- Tom made a really

9 important point I think which is to clarify

10 for HI's proposal whether these parameters

11 speak to that proposal effectively, or

12 whether, are we ready to move on. Yes, Greg.

13 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

14 Grundfos. Just another emphasis on the 6-inch

15 and smaller and the speed. And we don't have

16 to wordsmith it here. It can be looked at

17 later. 

18 But we have our -- a 3-inch, but

19 it's driven by a permanent magnet motor

20 running 10,000 rpm. So, there will have to be

21 I think some wordsmithing or figure out how to

22 get those to coordinate properly. Yes, how it
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1 fits into the speed range.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: How would you

3 change the speed range then?

4 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

5 Xylem. This was the issue we got into before

6 when we were talking about, you know, ECM

7 motors, that the speeds are all over the

8 place. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.

10 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal

11 Beloit. I think the concern from DOE is that

12 they would use a 3-inch to skirt the

13 regulations. 

14 If you're going to use a 3-inch

15 with a PM you're not doing it because you're

16 trying to go to a lower-cost solution. So I

17 think if you have the speed plus the size I

18 think that covers everything. 

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,

20 LBNL. I want to go back to the power just for

21 a second. So it actually is going to not be

22 BEP. We probably have to define it a little
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1 better because there has to be some objective

2 way of determining whether or not it's

3 included. 

4 And the range of your curve is

5 sort of a subjective area, right? So I don't

6 know if we need to decide it now or not but

7 I'm just throwing it out there that it has to

8 be an objective parameter. 

9 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

10 Xylem. So what we're saying is that it's not

11 really end of curve. Sorry, that wasn't the

12 right term, but it's the max horsepower

13 required by a particular diameter.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, but what is

15 the -- I mean, you can cut off your range

16 wherever. If you have an inclining power

17 curve wherever you decide that that is a no

18 longer appropriate place to run is somewhat

19 subjective, right? I mean, I know you have

20 good reasons for it as a designer. 

21 But like as DOE trying to enforce

22 this rule, right, you have --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Sarah

2 Widder.

3 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder from

4 PNNL. But this is getting to the test

5 procedure part where if we're going to define

6 max horsepower it's perfectly fine to have

7 these criteria be based on that. 

8 But that would have to be

9 something in the test procedure where we set

10 a new protocol for here's how you determine

11 max horsepower for a given pump specifically

12 for each pump. And then that would be an

13 additional thing that was run as part of the

14 test procedure if you tie it to max horsepower

15 instead of BEP. Whatever we tie it to, that

16 will have to be quantitatively determined.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

18 MR. ADIN: Right, Sarah is exactly

19 right. I mean, it's akin to like an air

20 conditioner, for example, which its coverage

21 or its product class is determined by its

22 capacity. The test procedure defines how you
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1 determine capacity so that's what we're

2 dealing with. So you can appreciate how it

3 becomes important.

4 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

5 Xylem. So obviously the issue that we're

6 getting into is we have a pump, for example,

7 that could be sold with a 100 through a 250

8 horsepower motor to cover the entire range of

9 the performance.

10 So if we're cutting it off at 200

11 only part of that pump's performance is

12 regulated, just to give you an example. So

13 that's why this is a tough thing for us to pin

14 down because our pumps are designed to use a

15 range of motor horsepowers or driver

16 horsepowers. 

17 MS. WIDDER: So, to respond to

18 that a little bit. I think that that is -- I

19 can see where that's confusing, but it's

20 actually not that gray. So, depending on

21 where we define the cutoff. Let's say we

22 define it based on BEP and you have a pump
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1 that can be used with 100 to 250 horsepower

2 motors, provided that the BEP of that pump is

3 less than or equal to 200 horsepower, you're

4 in. It doesn't matter if you go higher or

5 not, it doesn't matter if you go lower, it

6 doesn't matter, as long as you pick a point,

7 there's two sides, it's sort of black and

8 white.

9 MR. POWERS: And I think -- sorry,

10 Chuck Powers. What you're saying -- I want

11 Greg to speak up here, maybe Charlie in a

12 second -- I'm okay with.

13 But what also is important, in a

14 way we might want to use the nomenclature BEP. 

15 And the reason is the MEI calculations talk

16 about BEP and the plus or minus percentage

17 factors.

18 So to be fair to ourselves if you

19 don't have BEP you're just going to pick a

20 spot in the dark and you're not going to know

21 where you're at, right? So I think -- if

22 that's fair.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah.

2 MS. WIDDER: So I just want to

3 make sure I understand what you're saying. 

4 You're thinking BEP, tying these criteria to

5 horsepower at BEP might be a well-defined

6 rating point. 

7 MR. POWERS: Right.

8 MS. WIDDER: Okay. I would agree.

9 MR. POWERS: Charlie, are you okay

10 with that?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

12 MR. CASE: If we could have five

13 minutes to caucus to talk about this.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. You know

15 what?

16 MR. CASE: Make sure we have an

17 idea of what's going on here.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: We're due for a

19 break anyway. Let's take a break. Let's take

20 a 15-minute break. It's 10 minutes till 3

21 which means we'll resume at quarter after. 

22 You all know that there are
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1 restrooms at both ends of the hall and there's

2 a Coke machine on the ground floor headed

3 towards the Subway shop, the coffee shop, on

4 the left-hand side. It's going to close in 10

5 minutes.

6 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

7 went off the record at 2:49 p.m. and went back

8 on the record at 3:06 p.m.)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: When we left off we

10 were going to hear from industry

11 representatives and their thinking on the

12 correct language. Greg.

13 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. We just

14 wanted to make sure we didn't see any issues,

15 technical issues with defining that at BEP. 

16 But we're fine with the horsepower being

17 defined one to two hundred horsepower at the

18 best efficiency point.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, that's good. 

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Shaft power.

21 MR. CASE: Yes.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: BEP. And just to
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1 be clear you're speaking now, your caucus met

2 and members of your caucus which would be

3 virtually all the industry members here in

4 this room. They're comfortable with this.

5 MR. CASE: Correct.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: And it's shaft, not

8 hydraulic?

9 MR. CASE: Shaft horsepower.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. And so the

11 flow and the head are also at BEP, correct? 

12 Just for clarity.

13 MR. CASE: Yes.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. Thank

15 you for that.

16 Now, Lucas was suggesting -- I

17 should probably ask. Noting that we're

18 talking about parameters on the HI proposal as

19 listed here having had considerable discussion

20 on these parameter elements is there anything

21 additional you want to say before we move on? 

22 Joanna Mauer.
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1 MS. MAUER: Just on the speed. I

2 think we all have the same intent about what

3 it's covering, that we want to try to include

4 PM motors. I'm just wondering if maybe DOE

5 could take another look just at the specific

6 definition to see whether that makes sense. 

7 I think we have the same intent, I'm just not

8 -- I'm unsure about the specific language.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

10 Xylem. So, Joanna, I think because we're

11 trying to limit it down to the general water

12 pumps within the HI specification there's --

13 the PM motors are pretty limited in their

14 availability right now when you get into the

15 bigger sizes. Paul maybe can comment on that.

16 So, I think when we start talking

17 circulators the speed is a whole `nother

18 matter. Obviously we talked about the PM3 and

19 submersible. 

20 But in general purpose pumps I

21 think this is the best way to define it, okay? 

22 Because we're not seeing those motors yet
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1 being used on general purpose pumps.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.

3 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I guess

4 I thought the discussion was that, right, they

5 may not be very common today but that there

6 are some pumps that would fall kind of under

7 this definition, these parameters that do use

8 PM motors. We may see more of this in the

9 future and that we just want to make sure that

10 those are covered as well.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark follow on and

12 then I'm going to Paul, or do you want to have

13 Paul go first?

14 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I mean I

15 understand what Joanna's saying. She's trying

16 to say let's prepare this for the future. So

17 I mean, I do see other manufacturers, Nidec

18 and Marathon, for example, coming up with

19 larger PM motors that could be ending up using

20 on these pumps, but it's so early on we can't

21 define it at this point.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.
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1 MR. ADIN: So, just a clarifying

2 point here. This item really is meant to

3 identify an operating parameter of the pump. 

4 So we're not necessarily excluding specific

5 types of motors, we're just saying pumps

6 design and operate at these speeds, whether

7 it's with a 2 or 4 pole induction motor or

8 some other type of motor. 

9 It doesn't necessarily I don't

10 think preclude a pump with these parameters,

11 operating parameters from using some other

12 type of motor.

13 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Yes,

14 and I appreciate that. And I agree. I'm just

15 personally unsure of whether this language

16 captures I think what you just said.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul is in the

18 queue.

19 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal

20 Beloit. I think from future-proofing my

21 preference would be a speed range versus a

22 pole because a PM is not strictly tied to a 2
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1 or a 4 pole basis.

2 MR. ADIN: Right, that's precisely

3 the point I think I was trying to make. And

4 as long as we are all under the same

5 understanding that using this kind of language

6 wouldn't preclude those other types of motors

7 from being used in these pumps then I think

8 that's what we're trying to get at.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Follow on.

10 MR. LIN: So for that case then I

11 think the preference would be 1,800 or 3,600

12 base speed versus a 2 or a 4 pole.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

14 MR. ADIN: Well, I think that's

15 why we use the motor speeds part of it. So

16 it's not 2 or 4 pole motor, it's nominal 2 or

17 4 pole motor speeds, the speed associated

18 with.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So 1,800 and 3,600.

20 MR. ADIN: Right.

21 MR. LIN: Right. But the point

22 though is that if you're future-proofing,
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1 right, a PM motor is not a 2 or a 4 pole.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Gary

3 Fernstrom.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

5 California IOUs. So Paul, to your point, we

6 haven't specified a 2 or a 4 pole motor. The

7 language was changed to reference the speeds

8 associated with those motor designs, not those

9 motor designs. 

10 But to Lucas' point, by defining

11 pump designs that meet this criteria we are in

12 a way limiting ourselves with respect to PM

13 motors because Greg mentioned that they have

14 a submersible with a PM motor that operates

15 at, what, ten or twelve thousand rpm. So the

16 PM motor capability goes well beyond the pump

17 design criteria referenced here.

18 MR. ADIN: Is the pump -- maybe

19 this is a point that I didn't quite fully

20 understand when it was first raised. But does

21 that pump, that high-speed pump, otherwise

22 fall within the parameters that we've shown up
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1 here?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: State the question

3 again.

4 MR. ADIN: Gary just referenced a

5 pump that was mentioned earlier, an example of

6 this type of pump then can operate at, what

7 was it, 10,000 rpm? Would that otherwise --

8 I mean, would it be excluded on some other

9 basis?

10 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary,

11 California IOUs. I'm deferring to Greg to

12 think about the answer to that.

13 But I think it would, aside from

14 the speed requirement. 

15 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

16 Grundfos. Without looking at the performance

17 data right away I would think that -- and some

18 of the other parameters that we've discussed

19 in looking at multi-speed pumps and defining

20 them based on three stages, et cetera, et

21 cetera. I think it would still fall within

22 all of it.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary

2 again. So, Lucas, I want to make sure that if

3 we all agree to accept this we recognize that

4 these pump design criteria would preclude some

5 of the attributes of PM motors. Not all of

6 them but some where these motors operate at

7 speeds outside of the range of what is defined

8 here.

9 And I'd like to know how the

10 industry feels about that, if that's an

11 important issue for them or not.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Your presumption is

13 as listed here, as written here pumps designed

14 for nominal 2 and 4 pole motor speeds will

15 preclude some. And the question is what's the

16 implication of that. Right? How much, what

17 types, that sort of thing.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary,

19 California IOUs. So, I think Grundfos has a

20 pretty good pump there. And maybe it's pretty

21 efficient already so it doesn't matter whether

22 it's regulated or not. 
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1 But I'd like to see these things

2 included in the regulations such that they get

3 credit for their performance in a way that

4 utilities can recognize, that is, the extent

5 to which they may exceed the minimum

6 performance requirements. And then utilities

7 have the opportunity to structure rebate

8 programs around those metrics.

9 MR. ADIN: So, let me just ask a

10 clarifying question, Gary, to make sure I

11 understand what you're saying. You mean for

12 the purposes of coverage, for those particular

13 pumps you're talking about including within

14 coverage the extent that the test procedure

15 would cover them there's a metric that can be

16 rated, not necessarily writing an efficiency

17 standard for them. Is that right?

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. Thank you --

19 Gary. Thank you for that clarification. Yes,

20 that's really fundamentally what we're

21 interested in, that they be tested and their

22 performance revealed so that we know how they
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1 compare to other products in the market.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

3 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers with

4 Flowserve. I've read this thing so many times

5 that I can't remember everything, but actually

6 let me say this. 

7 When you actually read the

8 Commission regulation that was the European

9 Parliament. This No. 547 which was 2012, the

10 EU standard, right? It gets into a lot of

11 factors. They actually wrote a product spec

12 around this page, okay? Now, they don't have

13 the page like that, but very similar, where

14 they got into defining every piece of this a

15 lot closer than what we're doing. And we're

16 going to need to do that, okay?

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes.

18 MR. POWERS: Now, with that being

19 said they do not talk about motor speeds. 

20 They talk about pump speeds, okay? When you

21 design a hydraulic for a pump you're talking

22 about a pump speed. So every time we say
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1 pumps designed for nominal 2 and 4 pole motor

2 speeds -- wrong. Okay? 

3 And when you actually look at

4 their definition and you go into it they

5 actually specify the particular speed and

6 pressures for the different definitions. 

7 Okay? They go into PMMs. They actually have

8 a paragraph on the permanent magnet here that

9 talk -- you know, pumps with nominal speed

10 different than 1,450 or 2,900 and they

11 specifically say pumps different than 1,450,

12 usually 6 pole or permanent magnet, one of the

13 following two options of testing will be

14 applied.

15 And they say pumps tested will be

16 tested at their pump's - at their nominal pump

17 speed. Because if you have something that's

18 running at 4,000 or -- the tested-at is

19 nominal to get the standard to make sure.

20 Then if it runs at a different

21 speed because of the permanent magnet that's

22 fine. So they go in and define that.
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1 So what I'm worried about is, you

2 know, we're putting words here that

3 scientifically are not making sense

4 mathematically. And then we need to build a

5 product spec around this. Because they even

6 say at 2,900 it's 140 meters. At 1,450 it's

7 90 meters. Now, 140 meters equates to the

8 459.

9 So, what I'm trying to say is you

10 need to really read this. And I've been

11 sitting here all day reading it and looking at

12 each one. I'm saying okay, that might be

13 right. But they went much further and really

14 defined it to put a category into really nail

15 it down so we don't get out of context, right? 

16 And they do talk water pumps. And

17 they also talk about a rotodynamic product. 

18 They don't talk about pump like we had. In a

19 more scientific way that's measurable.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I guess then,

21 and I'm looking to both Alison and Lucas,

22 these parameters are kind of -- they're
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1 placeholders, they're kind of categorical, but

2 it's not as fully and adequately defined

3 nearly as the EU definition is.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Chuck, can I just

5 clarify, are you talking about the Europump's

6 guidance on 547?

7 MR. POWERS: No, I'm actually

8 talking about the actual standard itself. And

9 then there is a guidance they put out to help

10 explain it. 

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

12 MR. POWERS: But the actual

13 statement itself says the same things in there

14 about the pressures and everything else.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, but not

16 about the interpretation of 6 pole and PM,

17 right? That's not --

18 MR. POWERS: That was in the

19 guide.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: The guide, okay. 

21 Just making sure, yes.

22 MR. POWERS: But the reason they
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1 did that is like Gary's bringing up, you know,

2 it helps people to understand when you're

3 talking permanent magnet this is what we're

4 trying to do. Not trying to hide anything,

5 you know, just trying to say hey, from a

6 practicality standpoint this is --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe this is

8 not easily defined at this time and we should

9 just note that for that particular parameter

10 that there's more definition, perhaps much

11 more to be done.

12 MR. POWERS: On every one of

13 those.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: At every one of

15 these additional definition to be done. Maybe

16 we should accept the discussion as we have it

17 right now and then shortly move on. Steve

18 Rosenstock.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Then just for

20 that where you've shaded it maybe just add

21 something about possible issue with pump speed

22 it sounds like based on what Charles was
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1 saying, compared to the motor speed. It's the

2 speed of the pump shaft I'll say rather than

3 the motor that might be driving it.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I'm

5 suggesting we move on. Before we do, Chuck.

6 MR. POWERS: Just one last

7 comment. The reason they went into detail

8 with each one of these, and sorry, Lucas, I'm

9 taking up -- is the purposes when they went

10 into each of these factors they broke out the

11 submersible MSS as they call it, or the HI

12 version of the 6 because they knew there would

13 be down the road more stuff.

14 So, what they started to do is

15 build a table and say, okay, even though we've

16 thrown four or five into the pot we want to

17 define those five now. Because as we add

18 circulators later or other products later

19 which we're all tending to lean towards, no

20 problem, you also have the building blocks now

21 to go from there. 

22 Because they're going to be a
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1 little different. You get into double

2 suctions there are going to be parameters that

3 are going to be different than, you know,

4 these pumps are all different so there's a lot

5 of technical variation between them.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. 

7 The reason these are combined is because this

8 is HI's proposal. I think they were trying to

9 streamline it. So I don't know if you want to

10 have the discussion or not of later separating

11 them more clearly by pump type.

12 MR. POWERS: Well, they're trying

13 to streamline them and I agree with that. I'm

14 just saying we've got to put a little more

15 technical definition behind this to make sure

16 it's making sense. That's all.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks for

18 that clarification. And the EU documents you

19 referenced there, does the consultant team

20 have all that stuff? You do have all that.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So just to clarify,

22 we have EU 547 and the Europump Guide to
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1 Compliance or whatever it is, I'm not sure.

2 MR. POWERS: And there's a lot

3 more, but those are two of the probably most

4 pertinent.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

6 MR. HUBER: I think the upshot of

7 that is using 2 and 4 pole motor is not going

8 to eliminate the use of the --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, I don't think

10 your microphone is on. The upshot of that is.

11 MR. HUBER: Yes, the upshot of

12 that is that this will not preclude -- the 2

13 and 4 pole motor speeds or 2 and 4 pole speeds

14 will not eliminate what you want, Gary. It

15 won't eliminate. 

16 If you listen to what he's saying

17 is that you rate it at those -- you rate the

18 pump and test the pump at those speeds. Then

19 you can run it with that motor, 10,000 rpms,

20 it doesn't matter. 

21 That's what they're doing, that's

22 what the Europeans are doing. They're taking
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1 that pump and they're rating it at 3,600 and

2 they're speeding it up. Which is okay.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary,

4 California IOUs. Here's my point of

5 confusion, Al. Grundfos' pump using the

6 PM/ECM motor is designed to operate at 12,000

7 rpm.

8 MR. HUBER: Yes.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: It does not meet

10 this criteria. It's not designed to operate

11 at 2 or 4 pole speeds.

12 MR. HUBER: That's not what --

13 that's not the way the Europeans did Lot 11.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I just --

15 sorry, this is Alison. Just to clarify. I

16 mean, the way EU 547 reads is this way. And

17 I will agree in their guidance they're

18 interpreting it differently and so we do need

19 to be careful that what we mean to do is

20 actually reflected. 

21 So I was surprised when I saw that

22 EU guidance document because there were things
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1 in it that I would never have thought based on

2 what they wrote in 547 were actually correct.

3 MR. POWERS: I will clarify,

4 Alison. I disagree.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, go ahead.

7 MR. POWERS: I was part of writing

8 it, I was part of the team, there was a lot of

9 us that were very intimately involved, okay?

10 If you look at, just so we're

11 clear, if you look at 26.612 which was, it was

12 part of the 165/24 page. And you look at

13 Section -- Article 2 Paragraph 9, "Submersible

14 multi-stage MSS means a multi-stage

15 rotodynamic water pump" -- which we should go

16 back to our definition and clear it up, but

17 anyway -- "with a nominal outside of 4- or

18 6-inch designed to be operating a borehole

19 nominal of 2,900 at operating temperatures in

20 the range of zero to 90." So they even limit

21 the temperatures on those type of products. 

22 But there's a lot of -- if you go
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1 to each one of these paragraphs they do define

2 it.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So, sorry. My

4 clarification is that I believe in the

5 guidance it references rating some 6 pole

6 pumps at 4 pole speed, right, which is

7 definitely not in here.

8 So, I mean we don't need to get

9 into details of whether the EU wrote their

10 regulation right or not. I just want to make

11 sure that, you know, I mean Gary has a point

12 that what Greg's talking about is not actually

13 included in this as it's written right now.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

15 MR. POWERS: Just to help clarify

16 it. As you read through this they start out

17 the end suctions at both speeds. Then when

18 you get to the borehole products most of them

19 are at 2,900.

20 If you slow them down you're going

21 to have to add stages. It won't be as

22 efficient. So they're being smart about it
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1 and saying look, these are going to be at

2 2,900. We don't find very many at the other

3 speed.

4 So, this is a generic speed factor

5 and all because you've got other products in

6 there. But that's what they did smart is they

7 went into each one and defined it to make some

8 common sense.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so let me ask

10 a process question. It seems based on the

11 foregoing discussion that these parameters at

12 some point for this working group are going to

13 need much more detailed definition. I'm

14 wondering how we get that done. 

15 Do we rely on the consultant team

16 to craft a proposal for discussion? Do we

17 create a subgroup to wrestle with this and

18 bring it back in our meeting in a month, our

19 next meeting a month from now. How might we

20 address this? Greg, go ahead.

21 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. We will

22 take on the task of recreating this document
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1 with the correct speeds for the U.S. industry

2 and we will submit it to the DOE consultants

3 for --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: To upload on the

5 SharePoint site.

6 MR. CASE: Upload, yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And can you

8 in doing so try your best to address the

9 specific concerns you've heard in this

10 discussion?

11 MR. CASE: Yes.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be good. 

13 That would be very helpful. Okay, great.

14 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. So

15 then what would be cool is you have an overall

16 parameter and in the bottom you say and refer

17 to whatever the document that DOE or HI want

18 to define it as. We call it our own, right? 

19 And say a more detailed definition here so

20 it's very clear.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good.

22 MR. POWERS: Is that fair?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you

2 comfortable? 

3 MR. CASE: Yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. Great. 

5 So thanks for HI volunteering and putting

6 together a group to do that.

7 So what do you think, Greg? How

8 many weeks do you think to do that sort of a

9 thing?

10 MR. CASE: We will have it done by

11 the end of our annual meeting because I will

12 want to run it by people. So that will be

13 Tuesday the 11th.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be

15 awesome because we next meet in the first week

16 of March, March 4 and 5. So that gives a

17 couple of weeks to -- for that to be viewed by

18 members here. Al Huber.

19 MR. HUBER: So that we can start

20 being very consistent on these things that

21 we're trying to pull together and publish the

22 industry would like to propose that we use HI
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1 nomenclature, period, throughout it so that

2 there's no more discussion about that and no

3 more confusion. 

4 So that any documents that we

5 write here everybody knows that what's it is. 

6 And any documents that we see up here are

7 always going to reflect the HI nomenclature. 

8 It will make it a lot easier on us in the

9 industry if you do that.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. Alison?

11 MS. WILLIAMS: So, just to comment

12 on that. One of the reasons we're not using

13 HI nomenclature solely is that some

14 stakeholders expressed concern over using HI

15 definitions and nomenclature as possibly too

16 narrow.

17 So, for the time being, before

18 we've all as a stakeholder group agreed on

19 those things, I mean unless other people want

20 to agree on it now that is a little bit

21 limiting. 

22 And so that's why we're trying to
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1 use both, to make it easier for you and to

2 make sure that we're not excluding things from

3 the scope. In probably our next discussion,

4 you know, maybe we can cross some things off

5 the table and that will help tighten up.

6 MR. POWERS: Can you explain

7 limiting? What do you mean by that?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Chuck.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. I

10 mean, the comments expressed in the framework

11 meeting were that the definitions in HI 1.1

12 and 1.2 are very technical definitions. And

13 you make a minor change to your pump you could

14 claim it was no longer a VS0, for example. 

15 I'm not taking a side on this,

16 right, I'm just saying that there has

17 previously not been complete agreement on this

18 issue. And so I don't want to offhandedly

19 sweep it under the table.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So, what Alison is

21 -- what you have been doing is you've -- where

22 it's necessary to have dual labels, more than
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1 one nomenclature, you've been doing that. And

2 you'd like to continue doing that until we

3 decide that that's not necessary. 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, just

5 for example, you know, we put together these

6 tables with the crosswalks so we can go

7 through them and talk about them today. And

8 perhaps we'll do that and maybe some of that

9 will help make sure that we're clarifying and

10 talking about the same thing.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Chuck.

12 MR. POWERS: But Alison, again you

13 know, if you go back to that slide you just

14 had HI is actually more defined than your

15 version. Look at the bottom one, radial split

16 RSH.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so just -- we

18 have not defined anything yet. That is still

19 open. Definitions will be part of the

20 stakeholder negotiation. So I'm just

21 attempting to not pre-define anything before

22 it's been agreed to.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

2 MR. ADIN: So I just want to

3 clarify something. When you're talking about

4 using the HI nomenclature are you talking

5 about just using those abbreviations and those

6 terms to refer to those pump configurations? 

7 We're not talking about applying a specific

8 definition.

9 MR. POWERS: In my opinion we're

10 not trying to define what the lot's going to

11 be. 

12 MR. ADIN: That's not what I meant

13 really. I meant within each specific type

14 just saying, okay, we're going to refer to

15 double suction between bearings actually split

16 one stage as BB1. Just using those

17 abbreviations? Is that what you're talking

18 about?

19 MR. POWERS: So, in this case, the

20 first one. If you say we want the double

21 suction DS then the group would agree that

22 it's going to be the BB1 and possibly the OH4. 
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1 But you define them. Because just for my

2 purpose you have three and in this case HI has

3 if my math is right six. 

4 I'm not trying to say, you know,

5 just whatever we end up agreeing on let's use

6 the HI nomenclature. Because --

7 MR. ADIN: We're not bound to the

8 definitions that --

9 MR. POWERS: All the USA, your

10 constituents with manufacturing in the U.S. is

11 going to recognize that a lot better than

12 something else.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

14 MR. ADIN: Okay.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: You understand his

16 concern?

17 MR. POWERS: Yes.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: The nomenclature

19 should not bind this working group to the

20 scope.

21 MR. POWERS: Right.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Bind them
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1 necessarily to the complete and finished

2 definitions, none of that, right? They're a

3 label that we're using as a matter of

4 convenience. Okay. 

5 Is everybody okay with that? Does

6 anybody see a problem with that?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So I will just

8 clarify that on these, you know, you may have

9 multiple HI nomenclatures in one group and we

10 may want to talk about the overall group. 

11 So I mean, you know, it is what it

12 is for today. The slides are already made. 

13 So I think if we go through this discussion

14 then we can be more clear on what to write

15 next time.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So I suggest we

17 move on now, right? We're moving on now. 

18 Meg, final comment.

19 MS. WALTNER: I would just add

20 from someone not in the pump industry having

21 both is actually helpful for me in just

22 understanding the product categories. I
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1 understand the, you know, wanting to move

2 towards the HI definitions, or sorry, the HI

3 nomenclature overall, but just the way it's

4 laid out does help me understand it.

5 MR. POWERS: The European Union is

6 tough enough between countries. Even though

7 they're all a group, the EU, but they tried to

8 propose their version also and they backed off

9 and said look, let's stick with the pump

10 because everybody recognizes that. Specs are

11 already written. 

12 See, what I'm worried about is you

13 have contractors, engineering firms out there

14 that have been doing this for years. 

15 Here's an example. Do you use the

16 HI nomenclature or have you used -- if we use

17 the other then maybe that answer is right. 

18 I'm asking Doug here, sorry.

19 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American

20 Water. If we do use nomenclature it would be

21 the HI. I mean, there's only certain classes

22 of pumps that we're buying and -- 
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1 MR. POWERS: Description-wise.

2 MR. POTTS: Yes, we describe them

3 more descriptively. But HI is what we would

4 -- we wouldn't recognize a European

5 nomenclature.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: You're endorsing

7 the proposal. Pardon me, I had a small matter

8 to attend to. You're endorsing the general

9 proposal that we use the HI nomenclature.

10 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. I am. To

11 address Meg's concern maybe it would be

12 helpful to have -- you could still keep a

13 crosswalk table in there for reference, I

14 suppose. But probably I could see that there

15 would be a lot of value in keeping consistent

16 nomenclature, HI nomenclature throughout.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And then if other

18 pump types that aren't included in either the

19 HI proposal or the HI nomenclature emerge then

20 we'll figure out what to do about that. 

21 Right? That's our presumption. You think

22 it's inclusive. Okay. Okay, well, we'll see. 
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1 Let's move on. I think Lucas over

2 2 hours ago suggested that maybe the next item

3 would be discussed would be circulators.

4 MR. ADIN: Right. Well, yes. Two

5 hours of productive conversation ago I might

6 have suggested that. So, that is one of the

7 other major items.

8 Now, keeping in mind that there

9 are -- we haven't really figured out where to

10 place several of these things on this list. 

11 But it doesn't really matter order-wise

12 whether we talk about circulators first or not

13 and so we might as well go ahead and discuss

14 that item.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And Alison, I

16 don't want to put you on the spot but I'll

17 give you the opportunity if you wish to

18 describe in this table on 5 how these pump

19 types ended up in the green, yellow and the

20 red.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. So, Alison

22 Williams. The ones in green are HI's proposed
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1 scope. At the last meeting everyone sort of

2 generally agreed that's what we were going to

3 do.

4 The ones in -- sorry.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I'll clarify. 

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: As a possible

8 preliminary minimum.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Something like

11 that, right? 

12 MS. WILLIAMS: There was no vote.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I just want to be

14 real clear that we were talking about -- if

15 this group does nothing else I think was the

16 actual words that I used then we presume that

17 they will take up this scope at a minimum,

18 something like that. Mark?

19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

20 Xylem. And I think the other thing that we

21 said is we thought we could use these pumps in

22 greens and fully comply with the DOE's
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1 preferred time-line that they asked us to try

2 to adhere to at the last meeting. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Another point that

4 was made at the last meeting.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So keep

7 going.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, the ones in

9 yellow are pumps that were included by DOE as

10 considered for coverage in the framework

11 document as well as a couple of other

12 clarifications that came up throughout our

13 manufacturer interviews. 

14 There was one pump in red, the

15 axial/mixed flow that we have a preliminary no

16 on that but we can have discussion on that as

17 necessary. It was also in DOE's framework

18 document.

19 And we've pretty much, the other

20 things below in red are more of the larger

21 scoping issue to get down to the clean water

22 centrifugal pumps that is the general scope.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Most of, the bulk

2 of those in the lower half of the red at least

3 were specifically in the exclusion list.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

7 EEI. To clarify, in the DOE exclusion list as

8 proposed by DOE, correct?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: The exclusion list

10 for this set of slides.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Slide 6 that we

12 discussed.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, thank you.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Meg.

15 MS. WALTNER: One question. So,

16 on this list which wasn't on slide 6 is the

17 non-clean water pumps. And I know that's all

18 of our intent, but I'm curious if there are

19 non-clean water pumps that aren't somehow

20 captured by the rest of those exclusions. 

21 That seems to me like a very broad, undefined

22 exclusion.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

2 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. We

3 certainly agree with that. I don't know where

4 that came from.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. 

6 This was a relic I think of the original

7 thing, to define clean water pumps and then be

8 clear about what the exclusion are for. And

9 so we sort of skipped that step of defining

10 clean water pumps. So it's really just meant

11 to be like, yes, we're focusing on clean water

12 pumps in this negotiation.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So we should just

14 eliminate that.

15 MR. HUBER: Eliminate that.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, are you

17 suggesting that that be deleted? Because it's

18 nondescript.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, there's no

20 -- I think somewhere we should probably be

21 clear. I mean, maybe we put yes in scope,

22 clean water pumps or something like that. I
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1 mean, somewhere we should have clarity that

2 yes, we actually are focusing on clean water

3 pumps.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify clean

6 water pumps is a much broader term. I mean,

7 clean water pumps could apply to all the

8 things that we have, right?

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.

10 MR. ADIN: We don't want just one

11 item in there for that. That's more on that

12 other slide where you have all those other

13 characteristics.

14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

15 I agree wholeheartedly with what Lucas said. 

16 I think we need to just delete that. And we

17 know we're focusing on clean water. You put

18 that in the scope from the beginning and then

19 you're covered.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Everybody

21 comfortable deleting the product, the third

22 one in the red listed under "In scope - no -
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1 non-clean water pumps." We'll just take that

2 out and insert "yes" for clean water pumps at

3 the top as being the broadest possible

4 category. And then listing below there the

5 other items that you see both green and yellow

6 potentially. They're all potentially in

7 scope. Okay? We're going to do that then. 

8 Chuck.

9 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. Could

10 you go one more page? Sorry, where's the --

11 MS. WILLIAMS: This one?

12 MR. POWERS: Yes, the one there

13 excluded. Okay. So you have seven there. 

14 And --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: They're not one for

16 one.

17 MR. POWERS: I know. I just want

18 to make sure -- if you go back to the ones in

19 red. So we have API and you corrected the

20 ASME ISO, good.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

22 MR. POWERS: You have fire pumps. 
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1 You have self-priming. I just want to make

2 sure they're close. Wastewater, sump, slurry,

3 solids handling - good. Positive displacement

4 is in there. And then you added the one for

5 axial. 

6 I was wondering why, okay, I see

7 API and chemical on the same line. Okay,

8 that's fine.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sorry. It was

10 fitting on one page.

11 MR. POWERS: And if I could just

12 ask a question to the group. Maybe I missed

13 something. I read in the HI recommendation

14 through various things, and I had to find it,

15 I just finally found it. My memory's kicking

16 in. 

17 They did not list OH5 but they did

18 show a sectional. But on here it shows OH5 in

19 the green. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: OH5 is part of it?

21 MR. POWERS: Because in the

22 definition we don't show OH5. We have
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1 everything else.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: In slide 5 which is

3 HI's parameters they listed OH5, right?

4 MR. POWERS: I'm going by the --

5 there was a report --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, okay.

7 MR. POWERS: -- gave and we were

8 talking about your nomenclature. Well,

9 actually the European nomenclature and ours. 

10 And it's a clarification. I'm not challenging

11 --

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. So they listed

13 it as there's no equivalent European

14 nomenclature. So maybe that's the difference.

15 MR. HUBER: We intended it to be

16 there.

17 MR. POWERS: Oh, you meant to.

18 MR. HUBER: Yes.

19 MR. POWERS: Okay, so that's

20 clean. Okay. So then if you go back, my next

21 question is as a proposal. 

22 If we want to try to accomplish
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1 something by December, and I'm just

2 speculating and making an assumption here,

3 maybe that's the green. Just bear with me,

4 okay? Could we now say --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: September.

6 MR. POWERS: Okay.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you say

8 December? Gotcha, okay, the actual NOPR. 

9 Gotcha.

10 MR. POWERS: Whatever we agree to. 

11 Could we now just basically say that the

12 yellow would be the second phase and put some

13 rough timing down and then move on?

14 MR. ADIN: We could do that. I

15 mean, I think what we're trying to determine

16 primarily to start with is which of those

17 things in the yellow could prospectively be in

18 the green and still reasonably done as part of

19 this rulemaking. And I think at least for

20 DOE's part of it there's some where we think

21 that's probably not reasonable and some where

22 we think maybe, you know. There's just not
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1 enough difference between those pumps and the

2 other ones we're covering in green that it

3 would preclude them from being addressed here.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So I really like

5 the way he said that. And although it is

6 possible, if you could convince everyone at

7 this table that we could say yes to all the

8 greens here and just confine it there and

9 we're done. But I don't think you're going to

10 get that yet.

11 MR. POWERS: And then another

12 question would be for everybody, especially

13 the utilities and such, the last green one on

14 the list says vertical turbine (multi-stage)

15 submersible. 

16 In my real world I would say

17 submersible turbine because it could be a

18 single-stage. You could have a shallow well,

19 you've got a single-stage water pump. I

20 think, Greg, you would agree there's a lot of

21 submersible single-stages out there. 

22 And I think if you throw in
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1 multi-stage somebody then will say oh, we

2 don't have to worry about the single-stage. 

3 Trying to help.

4 And if you go to the HI

5 classification again it doesn't define how

6 many stages and all that stuff, right? I'm

7 just trying to help clarification.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think you're

9 correct. I had put it in there because it's

10 a reference to the EU nomenclature, but we did

11 not intend for it to be that way. So thank

12 you.

13 MR. POWERS: So we probably just

14 want to say submersible turbine and get rid of

15 the other two words. 

16 And then the VSO is fine because

17 clearly if you go to that definition it tells

18 you it could be a 1-stage, 10-stage, whatever.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: It's not necessary

20 to say it's vertical.

21 MR. POWERS: That's correct.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary? 
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1 Comment here?

2 MR. POWERS: Gary will tell you,

3 and I'm speculating, Gary, in the groves out

4 there there's a lot of horizontal VSOs, right? 

5 They lay flat because of their reasons. They

6 need them to lay flat.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 

8 Yes and thank you for your suggestion. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

11 Cappellino, ITT. I just want to revisit the

12 clean water pump addition. I'm suggesting

13 that that probably would be better on the

14 previous slide. We talk about parameters. 

15 MS. WILLIAMS: This slide?

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. I suggest

17 it would be better taken there because that's

18 kind of a broad idea in terms of the clean

19 water.

20 When you have it on the second

21 slide it really doesn't fit with everything

22 else. It's really defining geometry for the
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1 pump type. So just a recommendation to make

2 it clearer I think.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: That kind of makes

4 sense to me. Any objections to doing that? 

5 Meg.

6 MS. WALTNER: Not an objection,

7 but this gets back to the question I was

8 trying to ask before. Is -- do we need to

9 specify clean water pumps? Or is it

10 sufficiently defined by what we've exempted? 

11 I mean, we've exempted chemical

12 process pumps, API 610, wastewater sump,

13 slurry, solid handling. Are there other

14 non-clean water pumps that aren't covered by

15 those exemptions?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Or another way --

17 pardon me, Meg. I don't want to put words in

18 your mouth. Are all the items in green and

19 yellow, are they specifically as defined in

20 these nomenclatures, are they exclusively

21 clean water pumps.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison. To
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1 clarify, that's not what she's asking. Those

2 might include non-clean water pumps. But in

3 red the exclusions of like wastewater,

4 chemical, and those things, right, is -- she's

5 trying to make sure those are encompassing.

6 MR. ADIN: Right. Those are

7 specific types of other-than-clean water

8 pumps. So in part we're trying to give the

9 group a sense of what we're excluding, what

10 are we talking about, like what kinds of pumps

11 are those. So.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

13 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

14 I think we need to move it back to parameters

15 and then define clean water. Because we've

16 said clean water and we said it also included

17 gray water. So we need to do that. 

18 Because sometimes, and I say that

19 because sometimes people call gray water

20 wastewater and if you're not careful now they

21 won't be regulated. Okay?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.
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1 MR. HUBER: So I think you're

2 better off if you define it as a parameter,

3 call it clean water, and then define it.

4 MS. WALTNER: Right, and what I'm

5 trying to avoid --

6 MR. HUBER: And not in the pump

7 types. Those are pump types. Clean water is

8 a generic thing. It doesn't belong there.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, keep going.

10 MR. HUBER: It belongs here.

11 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. What

12 I'm trying to avoid, right, is someone taking

13 an OH1 pump and stamping "not for clean water

14 application" on the same pump and selling it

15 as a non-clean water pump. 

16 I know that's not -- but these are

17 the types of loopholes that we want to think

18 about. I know that's not what you guys are

19 looking for.

20 MR. ADIN: I think we could

21 probably avoid that based on the pump's

22 characteristics. So you could say it's still
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1 the same pump. It doesn't matter -- if they

2 put a label on it that says not for clean

3 water it's still --

4 MR. HUBER: No, no, you're exactly

5 correct.

6 MR. ADIN: It would still be

7 covered.

8 MR. HUBER: You're exactly

9 correct.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Lucas,

11 confirmed by Al Huber. Now, Steve Rosenstock.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

13 EEI. And then based on the earlier discussion

14 that would also include pumps that are mixing

15 a mix of water and glycol?

16 MR. HUBER: That's correct.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al says that's

18 correct. 

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, I just

20 want to -- it's out there and I just -- it is

21 application.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Useful
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1 clarification. Now, Mark Handzel.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

3 Xylem. So, I mean I thought we said that we

4 were going to define clean water further. Are

5 we kind of getting into that now? 

6 So, if we want to do that let's do

7 that. But I'm just saying, you know, we're

8 kind of bit and piecing that.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought we were

10 going in a different direction with this which

11 was to clarify what we can say about other

12 items that might be in scope. But you know. 

13 We have a lot of definition stuff to do and

14 I'm not sure we want to dive deep in that

15 today.

16 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers with

17 Flowserve. Again, you know, we're getting

18 ourselves -- if you read what the Euro

19 standard. Again, I'm not condoning exactly

20 what they wrote is exactly the way we want to

21 do it. I think that's what Greg is going to

22 try to define.
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1 But they say subject matter and

2 scope. And they go into a little more

3 details. Regulation establishes ecodesign

4 required for placing the market of rotodynamic

5 water pumps for pumping clean water. 

6 Because you have a definition out

7 there called water pump if you're pumping

8 different products, right? You could have oil

9 lubrication for the same kind of product, et

10 cetera. 

11 And it goes on. Where integrated

12 with other products. 

13 So first off, it says the

14 regulation will apply to water pumps designed

15 specifically for pumping clean water

16 temperatures from X to Y that we already know,

17 water pumps designed for firefighting or

18 excluded. You know, it just kind of goes

19 through and gives a little more detail rather

20 than just broad statements. But it does focus

21 on clean water pumps.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.
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1 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. We have

2 somewhere in the past couple of years defined

3 clean water. I will find that definition

4 again and I will propose that to the group as

5 soon as I can find it. And again, that will

6 probably February 11.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, if

8 you've defined it previously can you see if

9 you can find it by tomorrow?

10 MR. CASE: I can try.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, that would be

12 great if you could. Yes, that would be great.

13 I'm uncertain about what we should

14 do next, whether we should do some more

15 diving. I thought that part of our purpose

16 here was to see if we could gain ground on

17 issues, for example, like circulators.

18 MR. ADIN: Right. And I think

19 it's probably more, at least from my

20 perspective probably more productive to move

21 onto that. I don't know if any of us are so

22 much in -- unwilling to move beyond the clean
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1 water aspect purely because of the definition

2 at this point.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I would simply note

4 that these definitions, one, they're

5 important. And two, when we've delved into

6 them today it's taken us a significant amount

7 of time. 

8 And in discussing -- in deciding

9 the breadth of scope here a few issues which

10 have not been -- we haven't gained any ground

11 on them yet are things like circulators and

12 whether they should be included in the scope. 

13 So, if we can go in some direction that sheds

14 some light on that I think that would be

15 useful to do.

16 Now, what do we have that will

17 shed light on circulators? Steve Rosenstock.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

19 EEI. What I was going to suggest is did you

20 want to take any sort of I'll say straw votes

21 on the nos, or just get things on other

22 maybes? I know circulation can be
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1 contentious, but again just in terms of

2 process do you want to say, okay, fire pumps,

3 all green, no, done, period?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm not a big fan

5 of straw votes typically. I'll just declare

6 that a priori. So I'll entertain additional

7 notions, though. Tom Eckman.

8 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I think before

9 we start talking about anything in the yellow

10 or beyond, whether it's orange because it's

11 now green and red combined, we need to have a

12 look at the data that's been collected and

13 whether we have enough information to decide

14 whether to change the color of any of those

15 particular products up there. 

16 So I'm not in favor of making any

17 decision until I look and understand what DOE

18 has got collected and whether it tells us

19 anything or doesn't.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And I'm here to

21 serve at the will of this working group, let

22 me be clear. But I as a general matter am
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1 going to be trying to package things so that

2 all parties present get something that's

3 useful for them to vote for. 

4 So, anyway. So what do we do to

5 shed light on the issue of circulators?

6 MR. ADIN: Well, we've collected

7 some information since the last meeting based

8 on some of the data requests that we got from

9 other members of the working group.

10 And to help try and characterize

11 the market for these products, their energy

12 use, et cetera. And so I'll let Alison talk

13 to what we've collected so far, and then I

14 think we also were going to get some

15 information on circulators generally from some

16 of the other working group participants.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: That sounds good. 

18 So that was Lucas just speaking there. Now to

19 Alison.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So the -- to

21 clarify, we don't have full data on

22 circulators yet. We're still waiting for some
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1 of it. So this is sort of just a broader

2 estimate of things based on some different

3 sources we had.

4 So what we primarily tried to do

5 for this run is compare HI's estimate with

6 what the CA IOUs submitted in their framework

7 comments to see if we can try to figure out

8 where the differences are between those energy

9 use estimates.

10 So the first shipments were not

11 really that far off. HI said 1.7 million. We

12 understand that this might be a slight

13 overestimate because of some definitional

14 things that went on in the first survey. 

15 The IOUs estimated 2 million. And

16 we're currently estimating 1.5 million wet

17 rotor only from our manufacturer interviews. 

18 So, nothing like totally out there.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Zero point what?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

22 EEI. You say zero to 3 horsepower. Zero
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1 point what? I don't know of any zero

2 horsepower motors out there.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: I assume it's

4 inclusive.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What is your

6 bottom range? How low are you talking about? 

7 Just out of curiosity.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: The smallest are in

9 the range of one/twenty-fifth, right?

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. I

11 just wanted to get clarified.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct me. That's

13 correct?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: That's correct. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: -- a general range.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: This was straight

17 from HI, so. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, keep going.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: So the estimated

20 annual operating hours. Right now we

21 understand that HI in their estimates used

22 around 2,160 hours. We have since received a
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1 couple of other estimates from various people

2 that indicate this might be low. So we can

3 talk about those estimates.

4 And so calculating the average

5 draw from these motors, the HI data gives you

6 approximately one-tenth horsepower. We're

7 unclear that that is actually realistic. 

8 It seems like that might be the

9 nameplate power and it hasn't accounted for

10 pump and motor efficiency yet. And in that

11 case it would be more like a two-tenths

12 horsepower avg. 

13 And so using these numbers HI got

14 0.285 terawatt hours annual energy use. The

15 IOUs -- our calculation based on the numbers

16 they supplied was about 1 terawatt hour.

17 And if we change the one-tenth

18 horsepower assumption from HI to what we think

19 is maybe what should have been done, we're not

20 sure, then we would get somewhere in the

21 middle which is 0.57 terawatt hours. Which

22 again is based on 1.7 million shipments, 2,160
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1 hours, one-tenth horsepower hydraulic and

2 assumed 50 percent motor and pump efficiency.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.

4 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Alison,

5 are all three estimates annual energy use from

6 one year of shipments?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

8 MS. MAUER: Okay.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. Sorry,

10 yes.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

13 EEI. Being the utility geek what is the

14 assumed power factor for these motors?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: We did not address

16 power factor.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Really. 

18 Okay, all right. Okay, because that's

19 obviously, in terms of the kilowatt hour it's

20 going to -- it's not going to matter for the

21 KVA for the utility side. It does make a

22 difference for the kWh and the customer side.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you suggest

2 something other than 1 for a power factor?

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you --

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So just to -- I

7 mean, I think the purposes of these is to sort

8 of compare them to the energy use estimates

9 from the other pumps that are in scope. And

10 so, as far as I know it should have the same

11 assumption across both of them.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

13 EEI. I appreciate that, but again it sounded

14 like this was kind of a huge point. You're

15 doing it for relative, and I appreciate that,

16 that's fine. It just sounds like -- I don't

17 know if you were going to use this for another

18 like national impact. So, thank you.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer.

21 MS. MAUER: I know we haven't

22 gotten to this yet, so you just mentioned
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1 comparing energy use to energy use of other

2 types of pumps.

3 On the previous slide is the

4 annual energy use annual energy use of the

5 stock or of one year?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: It's one year of

7 shipments. I apologize for not clarifying

8 that on the slides.

9 MS. MAUER: Okay, thank you.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: So yes, we kind of

11 skipped out of order. I don't know if it's

12 useful.

13 So anyway, I don't know if you

14 guys want to just discuss these assumptions. 

15 You know, as I said there's some discrepancies

16 in the hours of operation estimates that we

17 could talk about. And we're still collecting

18 additional information to try to better

19 characterize what the actual average motor

20 draw is.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you say again

22 the source for -- you listed the sources here
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1 to the extent you can I guess.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So we're

3 really just comparing HI's estimates to the

4 California IOUs' estimates and trying to

5 figure out what the assumptions behind them

6 were and where the differences stem from.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And annual

8 operating hours, where does that come from?

9 MS. WILLIAMS: That is what we

10 understand was HI's assumption in their 0.285

11 terawatt hour estimate.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Discussion

13 on these data? Tom Eckman.

14 MR. ECKMAN: So, if we take the

15 roughly 0.6 terawatt hours a year at the

16 bottom line there and compare that back to

17 slide 15 that has in the far right-hand column

18 annual energy use in terawatt hours for Lot

19 11, at least the last -- it's in the range of

20 the RS-V, whatever that is in the HI

21 nomenclature. And bigger than the vertical

22 submersible in terms of annual comparison. So
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1 it strikes me we're in the range of being

2 really careful about excluding it.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

4 MR. STARR: And to follow up on

5 that it looks like in the analysis you're

6 picking up some pretty good efficiency just by

7 the switch-out in the motor here. So, unlike

8 the other pumps where efficiency is kind of

9 from the VFD there's a pretty good switch-out

10 in just switching from an ECM motor and some

11 other things. 

12 In other words, there's a lot of

13 opportunity in these smaller type pumps. So,

14 if there's adequate savings and there's

15 adequate opportunity for cost-effectiveness

16 then it looks like something we should be

17 looking at.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

20 EEI. Again, as a follow-up, again going back

21 to the earlier pages where about shaft

22 horsepower at BEP the minimum was 1
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1 horsepower. Do you have any breakout of the

2 number of these motors below 1 horsepower and

3 the number above?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: For circulators?

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: We have asked for

7 that data and we don't have enough to report

8 it yet. But we requested up to a quarter? I

9 don't remember. We requested a breakdown.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

11 EEI. Thank you very much because obviously

12 that could play into that previous slide in

13 terms of the minimum cutoff.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, do you

15 remember what the request was? Dan Weintraub.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub,

17 Navigant. Yes, so we discussed with the

18 manufacturers -- were going to provide

19 accounts of under one-quarter horsepower

20 inclusive and then above one-quarter

21 horsepower to 3 horsepower. That's how they

22 will be breaking out shipments.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

2 EEI. That's very helpful, but I'm just going

3 to refer -- what if our breakout is 1

4 horsepower? I don't know what impact that's

5 going to have.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional

7 comments on -- Tom, I thought your comment was

8 useful. Additional comments here on actually

9 these two slides? Yes, Louis.

10 MR. STARR: So, actually I was

11 remembering there was one last item from our

12 last meeting. I think we got in a big

13 discussion whether an ECM motor saves money

14 over a standard one. 

15 And I don't know, I think that was

16 one of the technical things that DOE was going

17 to look and get us an answer back. So I would

18 like some understanding of if there is a

19 substantial savings just by having an ECM

20 motor over that, without considering the VFD

21 aspect or the variable speed variance of it. 

22 So that was one item.
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1 And then there was another --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just pause. 

3 Did we gain any ground on that?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so I mean,

5 this is our list of things that we were hoping

6 to have for this meeting. But we didn't have

7 enough manufacturer data to aggregate and do

8 those analyses yet. So, it is on our list to

9 do.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Gary

11 Fernstrom.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Gary for the

13 California IOUs. Louis, we have 14 of these

14 pumps now and have built a test stand at our

15 ATS facility at San Ramon to evaluate their

16 performance. 

17 I thought I might share with the

18 group some pictures of that when we talk about

19 the test procedure. In any case, in the next

20 month or two we'll have some actual

21 performance measurements. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Louis.
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1 MR. STARR: Then there was one

2 other item. I think it was a request for

3 information along that same line. It was kind

4 of something along the lines of a test

5 procedure. 

6 There was a big issue about how

7 difficult it was to measure what Gary was just

8 talking about. And so it's kind of like I

9 hear it was impossible and then Gary was

10 saying I can do it in my backyard. You know. 

11 So somewhere between that I'd like an

12 objective viewpoint is this really, you know. 

13 That was kind of something also.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait a second. 

15 Alison, is that on your list?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Sarah is going to

17 speak.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah. Sarah

19 Widder.

20 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, PNNL. 

21 We've been doing research on test procedures

22 for pumps inclusive of motors and potentially
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1 controls, not necessarily -- I mean, we've

2 researched, theoretically we've looked up the

3 EU circulator test procedure, for example,

4 which exists. So, it is possible to test

5 circulators. It is done today. 

6 Similar with other, for example,

7 submersible pumps that are tested. You

8 measure the power input to the motor. So

9 these are all possible things to do and are

10 done regularly.

11 We're having some extended, or

12 some pump and motor combinations tested at a

13 laboratory now and that's what they're doing

14 for us. 

15 So, just to be clear, it is

16 certainly possible to measure hydraulic output

17 and power input to the motor, sort of a wire

18 to water test. That can be applied to

19 circulators, submersible pumps, even -- not

20 just close coupled pumps. You could do it to

21 separately coupled pumps also.

22 But that being said there's
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1 probably intricacies to the test procedure to

2 design a representative test procedure for

3 circulators versus clean water pumps that we

4 could address later on in more detailed test

5 procedure discussions about what was

6 appropriate for what types of equipment. But

7 it's certainly feasible to do and done at

8 these manufacturer's laboratories. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

10 MR. STARR: So I guess one of the

11 concerns was that I don't think that HI

12 officially has a test procedure for this yet. 

13 So, part of the concern was that in the

14 context of this rulemaking it's pretty

15 fast-paced. And then if all of a sudden we

16 discovered that there's tons of energy, and

17 it's cost-effective savings, and there's

18 enough energy to save on circulators, is it

19 feasible in the time frame to come up with a

20 test procedure that would adequately represent

21 what we would need to do for this NOPR?

22 MS. WIDDER: So, I'm just one
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1 person.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah.

3 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder. But

4 based on my understanding of the test

5 procedures that are available in the industry. 

6 It's true that HI does not have a

7 circulator-specific test procedure at this

8 time. 

9 But based on the similarities

10 between the EU circulator test procedure and

11 the test procedure for other centrifugal pumps

12 that exist I think that it would actually not

13 be that difficult to adapt for circulators. 

14 The main difference that I've

15 observed is the load profile for circulators. 

16 And then also they base the 100 percent or the

17 starting point on max hydraulic pump rather

18 than BEP. So that you can -- you don't have

19 to know what you're -- you don't have to ever

20 measure the pump efficiency actually. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I feel compelled to

22 see if there's a counterpoint here. Greg, I'm
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1 looking at you. Or Mark Handzel.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

3 Xylem.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait just a second.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Sarah has basically

6 correctly stated the Hydraulic Institute does

7 not currently have a circulator test standard. 

8 The circulator committee within the Hydraulic

9 Institute has this as an action item scheduled

10 for discussion at our next meeting next week.

11 And certainly everything she said,

12 there is an established EU test procedure. 

13 Certainly that's one of the bases that we plan

14 to look at. But there's, you know, obviously

15 we're asking our members how they test them,

16 and we're looking at what HI currently

17 publishes for sealless canned motor testing. 

18 So, there's a lot of variables here.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: At this point

20 you're just scoping it.

21 MR. HANDZEL: That's correct.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: And then what would
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1 be the normal duration for HI to seek

2 concurrence from its members on a finished

3 test procedure?

4 MR. HANDZEL: I'm looking to my

5 counterparts because I'm not sure, but Al is

6 whispering about a year. No? Go ahead, Greg.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Greg. 

8 I'm just wanting to just round out both ends

9 of this.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Four years is what I

11 was just told.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then,

13 Sarah.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Just because we have

15 no experience with it.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Sarah, go

17 ahead.

18 MS. WIDDER: So, just to follow up

19 on that. So, DOE always appreciates industry

20 input and starting with industry test

21 procedures as a basis for their test protocols

22 that are used for certification. 
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1 But it's not -- it doesn't

2 preclude DOE from establishing test procedures

3 for equipment for which industry test

4 procedures don't exist, or may be insufficient

5 in some ways.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. When I was

7 writing the meeting summary from the first

8 meeting there was a -- I'm unclear about the

9 attribution because I think we mangled this

10 exchange. 

11 But if you look at the transcript

12 I believe it was either John Cymbalsky or

13 Lucas who said that they expected the test

14 procedure was going to be completed during the

15 span of this negotiation. Lucas?

16 MR. ADIN: That's right. In fact,

17 it has to be. So we cannot -- actually, we

18 can't do a lot of the analysis that we'll need

19 to do to establish a cost-justifiable standard

20 without knowing how the products are going to

21 be tested and how the metric will be -- how

22 they'll be evaluated.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. Mark

2 Handzel.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Just to clarify, is

4 it the whole water pump test procedure which

5 HI is working on and I think getting close to

6 completing? Not wanting to put words in

7 Greg's mouth.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: 40.6, right?

9 MR. HANDZEL: Right, right. So

10 that one is nearing completion. That's

11 completely different from the circulator test

12 procedure. 

13 MR. ADIN: So, I'm just speaking

14 in very general terms. I'm not talking about

15 one or the other. We have to have a test

16 procedure for the pumps that we're going to

17 write standards for, right?

18 MR. HANDZEL: So if you looked at

19 the pumps in green on our previous charts --

20 MR. ADIN: Right.

21 MR. HANDZEL: -- those will be

22 covered under the test procedure that HI is
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1 completing.

2 MR. ADIN: Understood.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: And let me know --

4 go ahead.

5 MR. ADIN: Well, I was going to

6 say just to maybe -- since we're still on the

7 subject of circulators it might be a good time

8 to let Mark talk about their part of it. I

9 think they had some information that they were

10 going to provide regarding circulators.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark, if you

12 wish. I just, I don't feel like -- I think in

13 the first meeting several individuals on

14 several occasions talked about the complexity

15 and difficulty of creating a test procedures

16 for circulators. I don't think we need to

17 repeat all that, unless there's something

18 additional you want to add at this point. Go

19 ahead, Bob.

20 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from

21 TACO. I just want to point out that there is

22 a difference in the application of circulators
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1 in the United States versus what you're seeing

2 in Europe.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

4 MR. BARBOUR: The European test

5 standard was established around a European

6 style of pump which is different than over

7 half of the circulators that are distributed

8 in the U.S. marketplace today.

9 And I think we need to, you know,

10 if you're going to establish a test procedure

11 I don't feel that you can just base that test

12 procedure on the European standard testing --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder.

14 MS. WIDDER: So, this is Sarah. 

15 As a follow-up I definitely hear the point

16 that circulators are applied in the United

17 States differently than in Europe. 

18 And to Louis' point, we don't want

19 to adopt wholesale everything Europe does. 

20 That may not be appropriate. And it's

21 definitely something we have to consider.

22 But separating for a moment, and I
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1 know this isn't the way that the EU regulation

2 is actually written so it's sort of difficult. 

3 But separating for a moment the method of test

4 which describes the specific rating points,

5 the how to measure head, how to measure flow,

6 how to measure input power to the motor, how

7 to measure speed of rotation if that is going

8 to be measured. 

9 Those methods from the rating

10 parameters which may specify things like the

11 load points, and how many load points there

12 are, and where they are on the curve, those we

13 can sort of maybe treat them separately.

14 Is the method different for the

15 circulators that are sold in the United States

16 versus the ones that are sold in Europe? 

17 Understanding that the application in the

18 field would probably be different. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. And then

20 I'm coming back to you, Mark, in a moment. 

21 Louis.

22 MR. STARR: A couple of things. 
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1 One of the things as far as the test

2 procedure, you know, it could be more of a

3 prescriptive requirement that you have ECM

4 motors on things that are beneath a certain

5 horsepower. 

6 So, I mean, there's two stages. 

7 Yes, there's additional benefit by trying to

8 capture that extra, you know, the pump doesn't

9 need to run at full speed the whole time. 

10 But there's an energy savings

11 that's just captured by just having an ECM

12 motor that doesn't really matter about the

13 control strategy that you're using, whether

14 it's delta t or delta p or whatever else you

15 might be doing.

16 And that doesn't exist in a lot of

17 all of the other pump categories that we're

18 talking about. There's a huge gold mine of

19 savings that exists there.

20 And then you get into the

21 specifics of control strategies and there's

22 some more to be picked up there. But there's
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1 a lot to be found.

2 And they have done this in 90.1

3 which is the codes for a lot of the building

4 codes for the U.S. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: ASHRAE.

6 MR. STARR: ASHRAE 90.1 has a

7 standard on the fan motors that requires

8 everything under 2 horsepower to have ECM

9 motors. This is the same idea that I'm

10 thinking about for pumps.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 

12 Pardon me, Gary Fernstrom.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary for the

14 California IOUs. So, I'd like to concur with

15 Louis. I don't know whether DOE is

16 particularly fond of prescriptive requirements

17 or not, but I think the -- certainly the

18 performance improvement opportunity ought to

19 be recognized.

20 To go to Sarah's point, it's our

21 belief that the test procedure is perfectly

22 fine for measuring performance. It's the load
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1 points and so on that are specified that are

2 probably not appropriate for the U.S. market.

3 To get to the ultimate test

4 procedure I think it's going to take a lot of

5 thought. Because we want to give some thought

6 to the loads, temperatures, control

7 mechanisms, to really get to the best method

8 of valuing.

9 But to go back to Louis' point, I

10 think there are fundamental intrinsic

11 improvements that we can observe and assess

12 based just on the test procedure without the

13 load points and draw some conclusions from

14 that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve

16 Rosenstock.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

18 EEI.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, let Bob

20 follow on.

21 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour

22 from TACO again. I'm just a little confused. 
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1 I don't understand where the advocates' 1.0

2 terawatt came from. I don't know what the

3 numbers are that are behind that. Are you

4 using the 2,160 hours? Are you using some

5 other number of hours? How are you

6 calculating that 1 terawatt?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I -- sorry. I

8 just got the numbers last night. So I think

9 that they were actually using 7,300 hours

10 which is for hydronic heating applications.

11 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour

12 again. I don't think there's anyone that's in

13 the industry that would believe those hours

14 are even close.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: What would you

16 suggest they are?

17 MR. BARBOUR: I believe that 2,160

18 is a relatively close number. It may be a

19 little low. I've seen numbers as high as

20 2,300, but I've never seen anything close to

21 7,000 hours unless a pump was -- I'm talking

22 about in most of the applications that we see. 
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1 There may be pumps that are

2 installed improperly, that are left running

3 that shouldn't be without proper control. But

4 control is such an important part -- for

5 proper application.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry, I actually

7 misstated. It's for a water heating

8 application, not hydronic heating. Sorry.

9 So just to clarify, what we did

10 with the 0.57 terawatt hours that we think is

11 maybe more realistic is take the 1.7 million

12 shipments, 2,160 hours which may or may not be

13 conservative and use those numbers. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: How about I hear

15 from the industry reps, Mark and then Chuck,

16 based on Bob's.

17 MR. HANDZEL: So, just to explain

18 the 2,160 number that was used in the HI

19 survey. I mean, it was based on the members

20 of the circulator committee who, you know, we

21 all polled, we all discussed it and basically

22 we're talking about hydronic heating primarily
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1 is the primary application where these pumps

2 are operating intermittently. 

3 So those of you who have furnaces

4 at home, forced air, think about how often

5 your furnace runs versus how often it's not

6 running. So it's an intermittent service. Or

7 your boiler would operate the same way. 

8 That's when your circulator would be running. 

9 So, again we could debate this for

10 days, weeks, years. So the important thing is

11 to establish a number and just go with it. 

12 But definitely it's not as big a

13 number as Alison just stated. And okay, maybe

14 2,160 is a little low but you're not going to

15 go much higher.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: She corrected her

17 statement. You want to comment here briefly

18 before I go back to the advocates?

19 MR. POWERS: Right. Flowserve got

20 involved with three individuals on the EU

21 study independent of the community. 

22 One of them, there's a report that
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1 was put together. It's about 40 pages. One

2 of them was one of our doctors of pump so to

3 speak.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: This is for the

5 U.S.

6 MR. POWERS: No, this is for the

7 EU. I'm getting back to trying to help

8 clarify some points in support of what you're

9 saying.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MR. POWERS: Another one was a

12 technology professor, and another one is the

13 University of Darmstadt in Germany. We tried

14 to reach out. They put a report together.

15 Now, it starts on a lot of areas,

16 right? But one of the sections they talked

17 about was on the circulators they came up

18 with, to your point, 2,250. That was their

19 exact number.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: For a year of

21 heating?

22 MR. POWERS: For the circulator.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: In Europe.

2 MR. POWERS: In Europe. Now, the

3 volumes are different, I understand that, but

4 the actual is 2,250. And they did break it

5 down, everything from the, you know, four

6 points across the curve because even though

7 the hours are run, there's different points

8 run and the hours and all.

9 And then what they also did is

10 they went into the terawatt, right. And so

11 everybody in the room as we all know may not

12 know the actual factors, but basically 10

13 terawatts is the annual output of one power

14 plant of nominal size. 

15 So, they went into doing those

16 calculations and what the impact was. And

17 what it came down to was, getting back to what

18 Al brought up earlier, is the package is going

19 to represent more savings than anything else. 

20 So on clean water pumps you may

21 gain X amount of, you know, a small amount of

22 improvement maybe on efficiency and stuff. 
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1 But when you throw in the VFD, you put in the

2 motor and you do these things.

3 And the same to the circulators. 

4 You really couldn't easily break out the pump. 

5 You really had to have it as a package because

6 of magnet factors and other things. And they

7 went into those actual hours. 

8 So, we've got to be careful with

9 this data. And I'm not the expert here. I'm

10 reading what these guys -- went into a lot of

11 detailed calculation charts and they went into

12 averages. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to return

14 to it's either Louis or Gary.

15 MR. STARR: So, I guess a couple

16 of things. The overriding point is whether

17 it's 0.28 or 1.0, so there's your range of

18 what the terawatt savings.

19 If you look at the last column of

20 energy use you can see that the other pumps

21 that we're talking about, there's this RSV

22 that's at 0.8 and there's a VT-S. So it's in
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1 the range of where it's certainly worth taking

2 a look at.

3 You know, I didn't bring up too

4 much about the operating hours but I take

5 2,160 as accurate for a residential thing. 

6 But you've got to remember this is a

7 commercial -- use in commercial applications.

8 Some of the proposed designs in

9 the future are to use these in all your fan

10 coils in commercial buildings instead of using

11 control valves. And so you're starting to run

12 4,000 hours a year, and then you're using part

13 of that time. 

14 So there's other applications that

15 are using a lot more hours here. And I think

16 there's going to be a lot of uptake of these

17 circulators in the commercial market.

18 The other thing we haven't

19 addressed is anything in the industrial market

20 in terms of how those operate. And shifts are

21 using it really in a couple of shifts. 

22 There's a lot of operation hours for these
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1 pumps. And Patterson actually makes some of

2 --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: For circulators.

4 MR. STARR: Circulators that are

5 for industrial applications.

6 But I mean, the main thing I think

7 is really that there is an opportunity for

8 energy use that's kind of the same quantity as

9 some of these other things.

10 And I think there really is a

11 great opportunity just in the -- you know,

12 when you're talking about a single-phase motor

13 this is where that big energy opportunity is. 

14 When you get into a three-phase induction

15 motor you're getting 8 to 10 percent by having

16 a little better ECM motor.

17 But when you switch from a PSC

18 single-phase motor to an ECM motor you're

19 getting a big drop. And they've done this in

20 warm air furnace fans, they've done this now

21 in fans that are smaller than 2 horsepower. 

22 And so it's kind of a natural place to go and
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1 look for energy savings.

2 And I just spent last week at the

3 AHR conference. And everybody's got one of

4 these products and everybody's talking about

5 ECM motors. It's really the big product of

6 the future I think.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary for the

9 California IOUs. To speak to Bob's point. I

10 don't think we have very much disagreement in

11 principle, although maybe the way the numbers

12 are put together needs some tuning up.

13 I agree in the residential

14 hydronic heating market the operating hours

15 are similar to the space heating hours. So

16 you're not going to get thousands of hours a

17 year of operating because you're just not

18 calling for heating that much.

19 Louis makes an important point

20 about the commercial market. That's

21 different. Out in California we don't have so

22 much hydronic space heating, but we have a lot
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1 of domestic hot water circulation and

2 relatively a high level of commercial

3 application. 

4 So if we look at the way these

5 things are applied in the West we get a higher

6 number of operating hours because it's not so

7 closely associated or so predominantly

8 associated with the residential hydronic space

9 heating application. I think that in part

10 accounts for part of the difference too.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, go ahead, Bob.

12 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from

13 TACO. My question to you is you talk about

14 domestic hot water circulation. Are you

15 talking about in residences, or are you

16 referring more to like hotels? I'm just

17 trying to understand where you're coming from.

18 Because I know that in the early

19 stages of domestic hot water circulation, at

20 least in the residential applications, there

21 were many times where they would be put in and

22 they'd be allowed to just run. 
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1 And over the years it's been quite

2 a shift in the marketplace as far as control

3 of those pumps. To the point where the people

4 now have proximity sensors in their bathrooms. 

5 When they walk in in the morning it will run

6 their pump until exactly the water temperature

7 comes up to where the fixture is and it shuts

8 itself off. Or they'll learn your habits

9 where they'll run and turn off at the

10 appropriate time so that you're not wasting,

11 quote, "hours and hours and hours" of

12 operation on that pump.

13 I'm just trying to understand what

14 the market segment is that you're referring

15 to.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so this is

17 Gary. Just to respond to that, you're right,

18 there are very smart controls available to

19 save a lot of energy. Our observation is due

20 to the cost they're not often used. 

21 I can cite an anecdote from

22 personal experience. My son-in-law built a
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1 house a couple of years ago. And his domestic

2 hot water circulators, he has two of them,

3 operate 24/7. There is no control.

4 So, yes, those products are

5 available, but I wish they were more widely

6 used.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark Handzel,

8 thanks for being patient. 

9 MR. HANDZEL: I'm sorry, Doug, I'm

10 getting a little antsy over here.

11 You know, first of all, I just

12 want to say as everyone has said and I said in

13 the last meeting we're not opposed to energy

14 efficient circulators. So, I mean we're --

15 but I just want to make sure. Louis, you've

16 been referencing this chart up here on the

17 top. And Alison --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Page 15.

19 MR. HANDZEL: We're looking at

20 slide 15. I assume these are your

21 calculations.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: They're my
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1 calculations and they're based on very

2 preliminary numbers. And I did want to go

3 through the shipments estimates and things

4 really before we looked at these.

5 MR. HANDZEL: There's a tremendous

6 number of estimates here.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, correct.

8 MR. HANDZEL: I don't agree with

9 your hours of operation. I mean there's just

10 lots of things. 

11 You know, if Louis is going to use

12 the terawatts on this chart as a point of

13 comparison we've got to get this chart right.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. My intent had

15 really been --

16 MR. HANDZEL: And again, I'm not

17 disagreeing. ECM motors offer tremendous

18 savings. You've said a lot of right things. 

19 But let's just get the data right before we

20 start running with it.

21 MR. STARR: Actually that does

22 bring up a question. When is an opportunity
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1 big enough to go after? Because while, I mean

2 maybe these other pumps suck too, I don't

3 know.

4 (Laughter)

5 MR. STARR: I'm just thinking what

6 has to be a big enough pot of gold that like,

7 hey, there's a pony there in that pile.

8 Well, it's not cost-benefit. I

9 think it's -- isn't DOE something like --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman, go

11 ahead.

12 MR. ECKMAN: I don't think the

13 table tells us anything yet with respect to

14 savings potential. All it just tells us is

15 some rough estimate of use.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.

17 MR. ECKMAN: And so if Louis is

18 right and Gary's right and adding an ECM to a

19 circulator pump provides 25-30 percent

20 savings, whatever the number is, it's got to

21 be compared on a delta basis of use to other

22 potentials for pumps where the bare pump
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1 improvement is in the range of you guys say

2 just when it's a bare pump. And that might be

3 1 percent, it might be 5 percent. I don't

4 know what the hydraulic potential for

5 improvement is, but it's not as big as 30

6 percent. 

7 So, no matter what the usage is

8 the delta is what we're going to decide on. 

9 And so, until we get information on how much

10 improvement is possible in any one of those

11 columns I don't know which one I want to cover

12 or not. Because I don't have any idea how big

13 the potential is for the cost of regulation.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, follow on.

15 MR. HANDZEL: So, along the same

16 lines -- Mark Handzel, Xylem -- you know, I

17 just want to point out if you go back to HI's

18 May 2 letter of last year we felt the extended

19 product approach had potential savings of 40

20 terawatts. That blows away any of the numbers

21 that we're looking at here just looking at

22 extended product. 
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1 So again, I think we have to come

2 up with a methodology that we all agree on for

3 calculating terawatts, and then look at each

4 of these methods to really see where the big

5 opportunities are because I just think we're

6 all over the place right now.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe in a moment

8 we'll let Alison describe how she derived the

9 content of this table. But Lucas Adin first.

10 MR. ADIN: Well, this is just sort

11 of a general point. But, so we've heard a lot

12 of comments about the energy use estimates and

13 debate about whether in fact it's -- the

14 benefits of going after these pumps with

15 respect to standards, the energy savings

16 potential and all that.

17 And I don't know that there's a

18 disagreement here about whether standards

19 should be pursued generally. I mean, I think

20 we've heard a lot of support for that.

21 The question that we're really

22 trying to wrestle with here is are we going to
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1 try and address them through this proceeding. 

2 And there are several other

3 aspects that we've touched on but haven't

4 really gotten to in detail that bear on that,

5 the more practical aspects. We kind of

6 touched on the test procedure a little bit.

7 But in many respects, at least

8 from my personal understanding, and I'll let

9 others correct me if I'm wrong, but

10 circulators are different in many respects, at

11 least the types that we seem to be talking

12 about than some of these other pumps in a way

13 that would be important. 

14 It might add complexity to the

15 analysis that we do. There's a lot of other

16 data we may still have to collect. And then

17 there's potentially aspects of the test method

18 that may have to be written, or may have to be

19 evaluated in a different way. So those are

20 all things that we still have yet to talk

21 about.

22 And so I just want to make sure
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1 that that's clear. Those are things that

2 certainly DOE is thinking about as far as

3 whether this is really reasonable within the

4 time frame that we're talking about for this

5 rule.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

8 EEI. As a Washington, D.C. person who is used

9 to numbers being thrown around I just wanted

10 to say did you mean 40 terawatt hours instead

11 of 40 terawatts? Because 40 terawatts, it

12 would be like the peak demand reduction. 

13 Forty terawatt hours is the energy saved,

14 okay.

15 Also, is that -- remember you're

16 showing pumps here of about 2 terawatt hours,

17 or 3 terawatt hours. You say 40. You mean

18 over 30 years, right? Over the life cycle of

19 the --

20 MR. CASE: It's 11.6 terawatt

21 hours per year using the extended product

22 approach.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Is that the

2 annual energy consumption, or the potential

3 energy savings?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Greg Case

5 speaking. Say that again, Greg.

6 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. When we

7 did our report we estimated just if we used

8 the MEI we'd have a 1.9 terawatt hours per

9 year savings, an additional 9.7 terawatt hours

10 per year based on the extended product

11 approach for a total savings of 11.6 terawatt

12 hours per year.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

14 MR. HUBER: Let me make sure that

15 you understand. When we talk about extended

16 product we're also talking about the

17 circulators and these motors that they're

18 talking about, and the controls. So we're not

19 excluding those.

20 But you can see the difference in

21 the potential savings is almost seven or eight

22 times.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. But you

2 also said 40 so that's why I was asking.

3 MR. HUBER: He misspoke.

4 MR. CASE: We estimate by 2035

5 we'd be up to 14 terawatt hours per year in

6 energy savings.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, thank you,

8 Greg, that's helpful. And is that worksheet

9 in the docket?

10 MR. CASE: That is our response

11 letter to the framework document so it should

12 be in the DOE's possession.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Also, I add

14 another point. Getting back to this chart

15 again --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

18 EEI. Again, if you're going to try to ferret

19 out different classes of products based on

20 their annual energy use or their potential

21 savings, for example, you look at Lot 11 VT-S. 

22 I'm just looking at the thing. The range of
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1 estimates is 0.05 terawatt hours per year to

2 0.18 which is a lot lower than some of the

3 other ones on here.

4 I'm not -- are you saying that

5 you're going to try to say forget about those

6 products because they're using so little

7 energy compared to the others? Again, I'm

8 just throwing it out there just to kind of

9 follow up the whole general conversation.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel, did

11 you finish presenting whatever you were going

12 to present?

13 MR. HANDZEL: I never started.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I

15 thought.

16 MR. HANDZEL: So I mean, what I

17 was asked to do is to prepare an overview of

18 circulators to try to level the playing field

19 of everybody's knowledge.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's do that. 

21 Before you do that I'll recognize Joanna

22 because she's always patient.
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1 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just

2 wanted to clarify, my understanding is the

3 numbers that Greg and others have been citing

4 is the savings from getting extended products

5 to be applied in applications where they

6 otherwise -- where the customer would not be

7 using an extended product.

8 And I don't think that's

9 consistent with your proposal in extended

10 products. I think that's a very different

11 concept than regulating extended products that

12 are sold that way already in the market. So

13 I just wanted to make that distinction. 

14 Setting a standard for a pump,

15 motor and VFD that's sold by the pump

16 manufacturer today I think is different than

17 getting extended products in applications

18 where the customer otherwise would just buy a

19 pump and motor.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Is her rendering

21 correct, Greg? Did you understand it? 

22 I thought Joanna was saying that
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1 your estimate relies on a lot of extended

2 product applications where perhaps there

3 aren't any now. Is that right? Yes, that's

4 correct. 

5 Is that how you derive your

6 numbers, Greg?

7 MR. CASE: That is correct.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: That is correct.

9 MR. CASE: We would get many new

10 applications using this extended --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Joanna, that

12 was a very useful clarification.

13 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just to

14 -- I think when we say extended product

15 approach I'm not sure that necessarily means

16 something in particular. I think we all have

17 a common understanding of what extended

18 product means, but extended product approach,

19 I think there are different ways that you

20 could try to -- you know, you could set

21 standards for extended products. You could

22 try to encourage more sales of extended
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1 products. So I just wanted to make that

2 clarification.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I do want to hear

4 Mark since he's prepared some material, but

5 I'll recognize Louis first.

6 MR. STARR: I was just going to

7 clarify. I didn't want to really mention

8 this, but if you just take the whole --

9 evidently Alison's numbers may be -- but if

10 you just take her numbers, you know, 2.83, 2.4

11 and 3.38, you add it up, that's roughly

12 somewhere in the 10 range, or 7 or 8-9 range. 

13 So that's all the energy that's being used in

14 Lot 11. So you can only save that much

15 energy. 

16 So as a rule of thumb maybe 10

17 percent of that would be, you know, something

18 as a savings estimate. So I think that's kind

19 of --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So now let's hear

21 from Mark. Mark, you've got the floor for as

22 long as you want it.
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1 How are you all doing? You want

2 to stand up for a minute? Let's stand up and

3 just stretch just for -- while Mark's getting

4 set up here. Don't go anywhere. Okay, we're

5 ready now. Go ahead.

6 MR. HANDZEL: So, just to again

7 explain what it is I have here. So, I was

8 asked to just provide an overview of

9 circulator pumps so that we could try to level

10 the level of knowledge that we all have about

11 these products. 

12 And this is an industry

13 presentation so you can see I'm on a Hydraulic

14 Institute slide template. So the members, the

15 HI members who are here have reviewed this as

16 well as some others and they've been giving

17 input.

18 I can assure you for every slide I

19 show there's probably 10 or 12 different

20 points that somebody else could make. So I

21 don't know, I guess I'll allow questions if

22 you want to flag me down. If you want to make
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1 points of clarification, or ask anything as I

2 can go through certainly we can do that.

3 So, as we've talked about going

4 along the Hydraulic Institute established a

5 circulator pump committee about a year or a

6 year and a half ago made up of the primary

7 manufacturers who I'll show a list of here in

8 a moment.

9 And one of our initial tasks was

10 to identify what is a circulator pump. And

11 again, it was a category that HI had really

12 not focused on. Go ahead, Doug.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we should

14 pause for a little bit. A few members have

15 left. Let's just wait just for a few minutes

16 until -- hopefully they'll come back.

17 Let me ask you a different

18 question. Alison, can you just walk through

19 the content in your table? Now that you've

20 got a mouthful of food.

21 (Laughter)

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you just talk
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1 for a minute about how these numbers were

2 derived as something else?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: That will be a long

4 discussion.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: It will be?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So I don't know --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, longer yet. 

8 Okay. Okay. Well then, let's proceed Mark. 

9 Go ahead.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So I'm not

11 going to read this definition that's up on

12 this slide. But you can see the main points

13 of this is that horizontal single-stage

14 rotodynamic pumps mounted inline.

15 And basically they're really

16 characterized by low head. They don't produce

17 a lot of head, meaning pressure. 

18 And quiet and vibration-free. 

19 These pumps primarily designed to operate in

20 people's homes and so the theory was you don't

21 want to hear it when your pump's running. 

22 So the two common applications,
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1 hydronic heating applications, and I'll show

2 an example of that just to explain what that

3 means. 

4 And also potable water

5 recirculation. Potable water recirculation

6 primarily means where your -- I think Bob gave

7 an explanation of it. When you turn on your

8 faucet in the morning and you wait for hot

9 water there are systems available where you

10 circulate that water so you will get hot water

11 immediately when you open the faucet.

12 Go ahead, Gary. And I'm sure

13 you've got about three questions. You're

14 going to cover about four of my slides here,

15 Gary, so I may cut you off.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: I only have one

17 comment. 

18 MR. HANDZEL: Sure.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: This is the

20 definition commonly associated with what we

21 might call residential application. But don't

22 we also use the term "circulator pump" for the
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1 little bit larger pump used in commercial

2 building and hospitality, hotels, motels,

3 institutional applications to circulate larger

4 volumes of water at higher head for more

5 expansive buildings.

6 MR. HANDZEL: So the answer is

7 definitely yes but I have a slide on that so

8 we'll hold it for that. And if you want to

9 talk further about it then we can talk more

10 about it. Okay?

11 Just to give you a little

12 background. Why do these pumps exist? It

13 goes back a long way, but basically in the

14 nineteen thirties hot water heat was used in

15 homes and they didn't have pumps in the

16 systems. They relied on a boiler to heat the

17 water and the water rose by gravity because

18 hot water rises. And it would eventually get

19 to the upper floors of the home and heat it. 

20 Some guys figured out that if we

21 put a circulating pump on it, a small inline

22 pump like this, you could significantly reduce
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1 the size of the pipe down smaller and also get

2 the hot water to the areas calling for heat

3 far faster. So it was a comfort improvement

4 that allowed these systems to be more

5 efficient and to work more to the creature

6 comforts, enjoy the fact that it was

7 environmentally friendlier.

8 So, I wanted just to show you some

9 examples of where circulators could be used. 

10 So you can see this is an example of a small

11 residential system again. You would have a

12 boiler in the home. 

13 You could have a larger

14 circulating pump on that boiler circulating

15 the water so that as the water went through

16 that boiler it would be heated. 

17 You could have pumps out in the

18 system, circulating pumps out. And when it

19 says load, that would be like a radiator,

20 something in the house that allowed the home,

21 the btus to be dispersed into the internal

22 environment of the house. 
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1 So this is an example of zoning a

2 home with circulators. There's a lot of other

3 systems where they don't zone with

4 circulators. They have one big circulator and

5 they zone with valves. So you can see these

6 valves, they would be controlled by a

7 thermostat in a room, for example, so that

8 when a room cooled off it would open that

9 valve, the hot water would circulate and be

10 allowed to distribute to the home. 

11 So these are just some very basic

12 descriptions of a system. You could get way

13 more complicated. We could spend days talking

14 about the way circulators are designed in

15 systems. Go ahead, Gary.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary. So one more

17 question, and I'd ask Bob to chime in on this.

18 My understanding is that this

19 picture is indicative of the way they do

20 things in Europe. And your prior picture

21 where you showed individual pumps for each

22 zone is more representative of the way we do
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1 things here.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Go ahead, Bob. 

3 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from

4 TACO. I would tend to say that this is more

5 indicative of actually what you do see in the

6 states. Very commonly you'll find -- now, my

7 particular home is around 2,500 square feet. 

8 We have one small 25th horsepower pump

9 circulating the water through our home. We

10 have three zones. Just, actually, one less

11 zone than Mark has in his illustration here.

12 The European pumps with that style

13 of application, these zone valves that you see

14 here are typically going to be opened or

15 closed depending upon the need for heat. And

16 they're either open or they're closed. They

17 don't tend to modulate to control anything

18 based upon a temperature in that zone. It's

19 either open or closed. 

20 In Europe they tend to use more of

21 a modulating valve which is actually located

22 very close up to where the load is located and
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1 it has a built-in thermostat within it that

2 allows it to modulate open and closed to give

3 you the heat performance that you need in that

4 room.

5 Hope that helps a little bit. I

6 just wanted to clarify that the circulator

7 pump doesn't necessarily have to be a large

8 pump on a residential application. Mine is

9 very small. And I'm in Rhode Island where

10 it's probably 6 degrees today.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so this is

12 Gary again. I just want to be sure that I

13 understand. You said in some situations the

14 valve tends to be open or closed and others it

15 modulates. Which is where? What does Europe

16 do? What do we do?

17 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour

18 again. Europe uses the modulating valve which

19 could be any degree of opened or closed. 

20 Whereas the U.S. applications, North American

21 applications tend to be more of the zoned

22 valve approach where they're completely open
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1 or they're closed. 

2 And in some applications they'll

3 actually put -- some people have elected

4 instead of using the valves they could use as

5 Mark showed I think in the earlier slide they

6 could use separate pumps for each zone if they

7 elected to do that.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino. 

9 You all set? Okay.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, and Gary, just

11 to follow up on what Bob said. We see -- for

12 many years we saw systems that were like this

13 that just had banks and banks of circulators

14 in the homes. 

15 And originally the design was more

16 of zone valves. Then it went to circulators

17 for zoning. And now I would say it's moving

18 more back to using zone valves. Just because

19 it depends on the cost of the zone valves.

20 As you also could figure out some

21 big homes, bigger than Bob's, you know, you

22 could end up with 20, 30, 40 circulators. And
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1 if you were designing this way it's a lot of

2 wattage. 

3 So, anyway, every contractor has

4 his own preferred way of doing it and they

5 will sell the homeowner on what the best way

6 is.

7 So just to give you an example. 

8 Here's a shot of a home with a boiler. You

9 can see there's some circulators here. So

10 each of those is pumping a particular zone in

11 the house.

12 The main thing on this slide,

13 obviously I listed the HI manufacturer members

14 who are part of the circulator task force. So

15 I think all but a couple are represented on

16 this team. So you have a pretty good number

17 of the circulator guys here in the room

18 already.

19 Sorry about this, it's a little

20 tougher to see, but we'll go through this in

21 a little bit more detail. 

22 So one of the things that we did
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1 on the circulator committee was to define more

2 specifically the types of circulators that are

3 sold in North America. 

4 And we are not identical to

5 Europe. Europe pretty much it's all wet

6 rotor. It's all water-lubricated circulators.

7 We have three types here in the

8 U.S. And I'll go through some details here

9 and just show you a little bit about what they

10 are. 

11 But obviously one of those types

12 is the wet rotor. So we do sell those here. 

13 And that's what -- this is -- our designation

14 CP1 is basically a wet rotor. You can see we

15 call it a close coupled sealless with canned

16 motor. 

17 What it's saying was saying canned

18 motor -- essentially what a wet rotor means is

19 that all of these pumps have to have some type

20 of lubrication. So what lubricates the

21 bearing? Well, in the case of a wet rotor

22 it's the actual system fluid. So it's the
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1 water in the hydronic system that actually

2 lubricates the motor.

3 I'm not going to go through this

4 whole cutaway. I'm sure this deck will end up

5 posted. You guys can look at it in more

6 detail. 

7 But essentially the shaft that's

8 shown in the middle has a hole in it, allows

9 the fluid to go back into the bearing and

10 lubricate the motor. So that's how it

11 maintains its life.

12 So, you can see we went through

13 and documented a lot of the bits and pieces,

14 the components in the construction. This is

15 actually out of one of the HI ANSI 1.1, 1.2

16 guide which defines types of centrifugal

17 pumps. So this nomenclature is being added to

18 that HI publication here as we speak.

19 Just to give you some

20 characteristics of wet rotors and just some

21 photos, just to show some different things. 

22 Typical wet rotors in North America, they vary
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1 from 40 to 240 watts. They could be

2 single-speed or they could have a multi-speed

3 switch. Lubrication system is the system

4 fluid as I mentioned. 

5 You can see the flange sizes

6 really depend on the size of the system

7 they're being installed in and what type of

8 flange goes with them. But it can range from

9 three-quarters to one and a half inches.

10 And a flow range, about 130 gpm to

11 a maximum foot head of 55 feet.

12 So the second type of -- yes, go

13 ahead, Louis.

14 MR. STARR: It says 240 -- Louis

15 Starr with NEEA. So 240 watts which is

16 roughly one-third of a horsepower. But the

17 survey went up to 3 horsepower. So they don't

18 consider that a circulator? 

19 MR. HANDZEL: So, there are larger

20 pumps coming onto the market right now. 

21 Primarily European technology. Greg can

22 comment. He offers those pumps. 
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1 And typically they go up to about,

2 Greg, I think about 1 and a half to 2

3 horsepower, larger wet rotors.

4 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

5 Grundfos. Actually 3 horsepower.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Three horsepower,

7 okay. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.

9 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. The 40

10 to 240 watts, what does that refer to exactly?

11 MR. HANDZEL: That's the motor

12 output. The power it can produce.

13 MS. MAUER: Motor output, okay. 

14 Thank you.

15 MR. HANDZEL: The second type of

16 product is unique to the North American

17 market, the category CP2. This is actually a

18 dry rotor pump which means that the system

19 fluid's not in the motor. 

20 This particular design has a

21 permanently lubricated, it's a grease ball

22 bearing that it operates on. So we're not
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1 circulating the system fluid in it. 

2 This is a design that was

3 originated here in North America probably

4 about 10 years ago. It's not overly popular,

5 but it has some specific applications

6 primarily in a little bit higher head

7 applications. 

8 So you can see a little bit more

9 limited horsepower. You can see the range. 

10 You see the flow in head pretty closely

11 matches that lower range of the wet rotor that

12 we talked about a moment ago.

13 And then the third style is what

14 we call CP3. And this is also a dry rotor

15 pump. This is the antique in the industry. 

16 This is the product that was originally

17 designed, circulators.

18 So it's dry rotor. It's a

19 flexibly coupled motor. Oil-lubricated. It

20 requires oil lubrication. So, typically a

21 homeowner has to lubricate this product once

22 or twice a year, or if it's a commercial
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1 building they have to lubricate it. 

2 So, again, it's a completely

3 different style, not nearly as compact, but

4 the original design. Yes, Bob, go ahead.

5 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from

6 TACO. Those flows and heads that you're

7 giving, those aren't necessarily the -- some

8 of those are very much on the high end of what

9 those particular pumps put out. I just want

10 to make sure people understand that.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Right. And you know

12 what, actually this is wrong because that flow

13 and head actually encompasses up to 3

14 horsepower. So this slide should say 3

15 horsepower on the upper end. Go ahead, Louis.

16 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. 

17 On these three categories of circulators you

18 identify, are -- I guess, I'm sure it's

19 different for each one of the companies, but

20 in all of those are ECM motors offered? Or is

21 it just primarily in the wet rotor side?

22 MR. HANDZEL: Coming to that,
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1 okay? So, this was the slide I referenced

2 about applications. 

3 So you can see I referenced the

4 two I originally mentioned already, hot water

5 hydronic heating and potable water

6 recirculation.

7 Certainly if you have a solar

8 thermal system where you're generating hot

9 water from a solar panel you're going to have

10 circulators of some type in the system.

11 If you're using any type of

12 geothermal system you're going to have

13 circulators in the system. So, they are used

14 really in just about any type of heating

15 application.

16 When you get into what Gary's been

17 referencing about commercial buildings

18 circulators could be used on small hydronic

19 heating zones. 

20 They can be used on chilled water

21 systems as part of the chilled beams, for

22 example, which are a different way of
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1 conveying cooling to a room. 

2 We've talked about it before in

3 this group. The manufacturers, we make all,

4 they're all similar designs and we distribute

5 them. We don't necessarily know how many go

6 into a commercial building versus a residence.

7 I think we've talked publicly

8 before and said we estimate 70 percent are

9 used in residential and 30 percent are

10 commercial. Those are our best estimates. 

11 Just wanted to give some

12 background too on the European market and the

13 European Union. 

14 So, in Europe they chose to focus

15 on circulating pumps first. And you can see

16 they first started investigating or

17 researching circulating pumps in 1999.

18 And then the first index was

19 voluntarily agreed to by the manufacturers in

20 2005. And Greg, my dates may be off a year or

21 two but they're in the rough area.

22 And then you can see the official,
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1 you know, the EEI level was implemented where

2 it became law in the EU in 2013. 

3 So I guess my point with this is

4 just that they spent a lot of time working on

5 this, understanding the market, a lot of

6 research before they actually put legislation

7 into place.

8 And then the last bullet, just

9 pointing out again they only regulate wet

10 rotor circulators up to 2,500 watts in Europe

11 because that's all that manufacturers sell in

12 Europe.

13 So, energy efficient circulator

14 options. Louis, I think this is where you

15 were going before. 

16 There's no doubt that every one of

17 the manufacturers that were listed on that

18 chart is bringing permanent magnet or ECM

19 circulators, motors with circulators into the

20 marketplace. So you can see some photos down

21 there on the bottom. 

22 Acceptance hasn't been real
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1 strong. I mean, it's picking up but I think

2 certainly we tried to -- just wanted to cite

3 some of the differences. We talk about the

4 European market being much larger for

5 circulators than what we see in the U.S. 

6 We don't have any hard numbers. 

7 The number the manufacturers always talk

8 around, they say that the European market is

9 10 times larger than the U.S. circulator

10 market. So it's a considerably different

11 overall magnitude, the number of pumps sold.

12 Also, a very small portion of new

13 homes that are built in the U.S. use hydronic

14 heat. I think the Department of Commerce

15 actually reports a number. They say like 2

16 percent or sometimes it's 3 percent of new

17 homes constructed are built with hydronic

18 heat. So it's not a rapidly growing type or

19 style of heat used in homes.

20 The debate we just got into about

21 hours of operation. We've already kind of

22 covered it, but really we just said U.S.
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1 hydronic systems typically only run a small

2 portion of the year. And that would be true

3 whether it's in a commercial building or a

4 residential building. 

5 The only difference may be

6 obviously a solar system, a solar thermal may

7 run year-round. So there's some differences

8 that you could factor in, but those are the

9 smaller side of the application scale. Go

10 ahead.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 

12 Except for the case where they're used for

13 commercial cooling.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I mean it

15 depends on the building. Like a hospital

16 typically might run cooling and heating at the

17 same time so there could be some big hours

18 there. 

19 But you're right. Everything is

20 always it depends, okay?

21 Some last things. Electricity is

22 far less expensive in the U.S. than it is in
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1 Europe. And right now typically we're seeing

2 the cost of these energy efficient circulators

3 is about double what the traditional standard

4 induction motor circulator is. So, that's

5 certainly changing, that's evolving. I think

6 it will continue to change. But that's kind

7 of the state of the marketplace right now.

8 That was really all I had unless

9 there's any other questions. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

12 EEI. I appreciate that presentation and I was

13 wondering. The diagrams of the multiple

14 circulator pumps, I don't know, I'm just kind

15 of curious in terms of -- well, especially in

16 commercial buildings with multi-zone systems. 

17 I'm just kind of curious about

18 diversity factors in terms of especially if

19 they have thermostatic controls and

20 programmable thermostats I'm just kind of

21 curious about, you know, it could be like

22 2,000 hours plus or minus 500 in certain
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1 buildings.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Absolutely.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Or 4,000 plus or

4 minus 1,000 because of just diversity of

5 loads, or one side's on the sun so they're

6 getting the solar heat, so that's helping them

7 and the northern side is going to be more.

8 MR. HANDZEL: Steve, you're

9 hitting it right on and that's what makes that

10 question of how many hours do they operate a

11 year so difficult to estimate is that there is

12 enormous diversity. 

13 It depends on the building, the

14 position of the sun, the way the system was

15 designed. How it's zoned could have impact. 

16 So that's why I think you end up making a lot

17 of assumptions as you try to come up with a

18 number like that and that's the way it is.

19 If - I just wanted to add one last

20 thing. If anything you didn't get out of this

21 one thing I wanted to convey is that the motor

22 manufacturer is usually also the pump
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1 manufacturer when it comes to a circulator. 

2 So, we've been talking earlier

3 before about how some of us with our bigger

4 pumps could just sell a pump only. In the

5 case of a circulator we almost always sell the

6 motor with it and usually we make that motor

7 as well. So, the pump manufacturer is also

8 the motor manufacturer in this case.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

10 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest

11 Power Council.

12 So, Mark, I think one more bullet

13 ought to be added there. They have cost, they

14 have a benefit which is to reduce energy

15 consumption. So that's the additional

16 benefit.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Yes and I think

18 that's probably a great point to make, Tom. 

19 I think why would somebody use hot water. And

20 I think the simplest way to convey that is

21 that water is the best conductor of btus that

22 exists. It's far more efficient than using
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1 air. You have far less losses. 

2 So, I mean, if anything for us

3 pump manufacturers we think as ASHRAE 90.1

4 continues to define energy efficiency in

5 buildings and to push it further along we're

6 going to see more uses of water. Which I

7 think just makes this rulemaking even more

8 important. 

9 MR. ECKMAN: The other part of

10 this, I think we as a group will struggle but

11 eventually get there. We just need to do the

12 math in the end. 

13 What the potential is for these is

14 based on whether there's an economic return. 

15 If they are double the cost how long does it

16 take to pay back that cost.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Exactly.

18 MR. ECKMAN: Without prejudging

19 what that answer is it's pretty hard to say in

20 my mind whether they're in or out. If I had

21 an answer I could tell you where I'd fall on

22 that question, but right now I don't have the
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1 information in front of to me to make that

2 call.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, and I think --

4 MR. ECKMAN: So barring that

5 they're guilty until proven innocent.

6 MR. HANDZEL: And we're not trying

7 to say they're not guilty. As Bob said and I

8 said at the last meeting we feel the market is

9 going to this no matter what. It's just our

10 continued recommendation is we do it in a

11 separate rulemaking because they're a

12 different animal and we're not quite as ready

13 with these as we are with the larger pumps.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

15 MR. STARR: So, I think -- Louis

16 Starr with NEEA. So, I think I know from the

17 presentations, those are all wet rotors,

18 right?

19 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, they are. 

20 Those are all wet rotors.

21 MR. STARR: And just another

22 thought too. Is it a question of time of
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1 adapting your technology to the market? In

2 other words, perhaps 5 years is too soon, but

3 maybe 6 or 7 is not.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.

5 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour. 

6 If I could answer that question.

7 There's going to be a great deal

8 of burden put on the U.S.-based manufacturing

9 community when we try to switch completely

10 over to the ECMs. If we tried to do that in

11 a 5-, maybe even a 7-year period we may

12 actually end up closing manufacturing

13 facilities in the States and bringing in pumps

14 from overseas. 

15 And that, I can't stress how

16 likely that is. And I think the members of

17 this committee really need to take that into

18 consideration. Because you're not just

19 talking about a few jobs here.

20 Now, TACO as a company I can tell

21 you is working toward ECM. And I believe

22 Xylem is --
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Every manufacturer

2 --

3 MR. BARBOUR: Every other

4 circulator manufacturer out there. But also

5 keep in mind, you know, as Greg mentioned all

6 those wet rotor-style pumps, those motors are

7 integral with that pump. You can't take that

8 motor off and replace it with someone else's

9 motor.

10 And when you get to the ECM side

11 of it it's really the controls that you add

12 with that ECM which is more the extended

13 product type of category is where you're

14 really going to get your advantage.

15 MR. STARR: Well, one thing to

16 consider too is that if you actually set a

17 standard then -- if you just had a base

18 standard of an ECM motor what it allows you to

19 do is create utility programs for things that

20 have clever controls and some other things,

21 some of the algorithms that are available in

22 some of the pump systems right now. So, you
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1 actually stimulate more market push to those

2 things too.

3 But if you are not able to stay in

4 business in order to capture that then that's

5 a problem.

6 MR. BARBOUR: And we're seeing

7 that already, Louis, those utility incentive

8 programs. They're already in place in some

9 places. Right, right.

10 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour

11 again. One thing that we probably at the

12 company haven't done a very good job at is

13 working with people like the EENGO group here

14 to address the rebate opportunities that could

15 be placed even with the pumps that are

16 available today on the market with the control

17 mechanisms that have been developed by

18 companies like TACO and others to try to take

19 advantage of temperature reset based on

20 outdoor temperatures, various methods of

21 pumping control and zone valve control in

22 systems where you can conceivably cut down the
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1 cost to the consumer fairly substantially.

2 I mean, something we need to look

3 at a little bit maybe for the short term until

4 the U.S.-based community is in place to be

5 able to really supply an ECM product line

6 across the whole population of product.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, did you want

8 to comment?

9 MR. POWERS: Yes. I think there's

10 two things I'd like to say. One is I think

11 there's a way you can get to the math that you

12 guys are looking for and I'd like to share it

13 with the industry, my cohorts first. Tonight

14 you guys can make some decisions on it because

15 they went into some pretty good detail on

16 that.

17 Number two, what Mark talked

18 about, up to 2,500 watts is correct in the

19 detailed study from the team we had and all.

20 But what more came out of it was

21 that what's unique in Lot 11 that people keep

22 referring to which is great, it actually --
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1 the EU looked at energy improvement whether it

2 was a pump or not.

3 And what really came out of it was

4 the motors up to 200 kW, this is the actual

5 Lot 11, fans, water pumps and circulators. 

6 And on circulators they bypassed

7 the housing industry and they went strictly to

8 only circulators for buildings. I mean, if

9 you really go into detail -- you know, we're

10 all pump guys. We only look at the pump side. 

11 But if you really look at that Lot 11 they

12 were trying to broaden it.

13 And their primary definition was

14 the EU directive intends on products which

15 have a significant volume of sales of trade,

16 number of units. Number two, significant

17 environmental impact. Present significant

18 potential for improvement without -- this is

19 important -- entailing excessive costs or

20 payback that's beyond what the manufacturer

21 suffers. 

22 So like the testing standard we're
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1 talking. We talk it's an easy thing to do. 

2 It might be easy for some of the larger

3 players here. If you get a bunch of the

4 smaller guys out there to upgrade a test lab

5 or take some changes could be significant. 

6 And make sure it's an approved standard.

7 And they go on. And the last one

8 was a wide disparity of environmental

9 performance available in the market and

10 equivalent functionality. Because this is

11 standard stuff. We don't want to create an

12 environment. 

13 And that's where they went into

14 that. And then they talked about circulators

15 and the products and more of the detail. 

16 So I think what's coming out of

17 this is we're focusing on one area here which

18 is pumps. But they tried to look at it from

19 a broader scale to impact the whole grid.

20 But I'll share with these guys the

21 detailed calcs and some of the numbers the

22 teams went into over there. You know, give
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1 you guys an idea as to an impact. Because

2 those numbers, the volume there like you said

3 is different but it may help you.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 

6 A strong point has clearly been made about the

7 industry impact and potential impact on

8 employment and so on associated with this.

9 I'd like to ask a question of

10 Lucas. And that is, I believe DOE is wanting

11 to make some kind of decision by the end of

12 this year. If that's done, how long will it

13 be until it's effective? 

14 MR. ADIN: So really the question

15 is how long would it be from the date of

16 publication of a final rule for these products

17 until the compliance date at which they'd have

18 to meet that standard.

19 And the date that we -- or the

20 time frame that we had found in statute was 5

21 years. So, it would be 5 years from the date

22 of a final rule. So, assuming we publish a
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1 NOPR by the end of the year then it was

2 another, I don't know, 6 months or so until

3 final rule. Five years beyond that.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: A follow-up

5 question. Is it within DOE's capability to

6 provide a little longer time in a unique

7 circumstance if the industry impact indicates

8 it will take more time to accommodate the

9 ruling?

10 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. I

11 can't answer that offhand. I'd have to look

12 at what the statute says. And I should

13 probably consult with my legal counsel on that

14 question. I don't know offhand.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Well, it

16 seems to me that there's not a lot of

17 disagreement that this is an area that offers

18 some opportunity. 

19 The issue really has to do with

20 the time frame and industry's capacity to

21 accommodate it. And maybe there's some

22 flexibility around how we deal with that.
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1 MR. ADIN: There's kind of two --

2 sorry to butt in.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, please.

4 MR. ADIN: There are two time

5 frame-related elements obviously, right? One

6 is the ability of industry to comply and the

7 time that they need to do that.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: And adapt.

9 MR. ADIN: And adapt. And then

10 the other is the time frame of the proceeding

11 itself and the feasibility of actually

12 considering these things, and writing a

13 standard, and doing all the analysis, and the

14 test procedure. So, from our perspective

15 obviously we're looking at both of those.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg.

17 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg Waltner. 

18 Another question I'd add to the list is if we

19 were to set standards for a limited scope of

20 products in this rulemaking, could DOE

21 immediately or within the next year do a

22 follow-on rulemaking for products that we
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1 hadn't -- or sorry, not that we hadn't

2 covered, but for product classes where we

3 haven't set a standard here. Could they

4 immediately be considered, or would they be

5 subject to the -- I think the 6-year period

6 for when you can reconsider standards for

7 products? So basically how soon could we do

8 another rulemaking for product classes where

9 we don't set standards here.

10 MR. ADIN: Right. My personal

11 understanding is that we could immediately

12 start a proceeding to look at those other

13 types that we didn't do, but I'd have to get

14 confirmation on that because I'm not 100

15 percent sure. That's a good question.

16 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers,

17 Flowserve. I think it's important to

18 understand the two variables. It's like

19 getting an order and getting revenue, okay? 

20 The first one is quicker, simpler, but revenue

21 is a different story.

22 So in a way here the ruling
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1 probably could be within a year you could add

2 one or two pumps. The question is that type

3 of product and what's involved, how long will

4 it take to make, nationwide make them all

5 impact so there's value-added.

6 Because as you change the kind of

7 products, you get into some of those BB2's,

8 some of those other as I call it big iron up

9 there, it's a whole different ball game. In

10 the cost development and the testing.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.

12 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour again

13 from TACO. I still think this particular

14 committee when you talk about the rulemaking

15 in total and the recommendation from this

16 committee that we shouldn't be walking away

17 from the multi-tiered approach to whatever

18 standards we do decide on as a group.

19 I'm talking about primarily on the

20 Lot 11 product line because I think that's

21 really what I recommend this group focus on.

22 But in Europe the way they did it
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1 with, for example, the MEI of 0.1 and then an

2 MEI of 0.4. A certain number of years later. 

3 I know that when we've talked

4 about that in the past there was some question

5 as to whether or not DOE could go forward with

6 a rulemaking based upon that type of an

7 approach. 

8 But, I mean if necessary, if we

9 had to approach Congress or something to try

10 to get permission for that, I know that some

11 of us in the industry would be more than

12 willing to talk with our representatives and

13 congressmen if necessary to get that type of

14 thing put in place.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought at first

16 you were talking about phasing, but now I --

17 exactly. 

18 MR. POWERS: Phasing is the

19 separation of the two.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, right. But

21 you're talking about tiering, predictable

22 tiering over the span of years.
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1 MR. POWERS: To try to achieve

2 different efficiency levels.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Steve

4 Rosenstock.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

6 EEI. To kind of follow on with what Meg was

7 asking, it really depends on all the other

8 things that DOE is doing, with all the other

9 rulemakings that they have and all their other

10 deadlines in terms of starting a new

11 rulemaking right after finishing this one for

12 certain pumps. I think that's also in the

13 background.

14 Technically they could but with

15 their resources, you know, who knows. That

16 all depends.

17 And the second thing to Bob is

18 there's been other rulemakings like with

19 clothes washers where DOE set standards for

20 2015 and another set for 2018. And boom, they

21 were done for that time frame in terms of the

22 rulemaking.
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1 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour. 

2 I'm pleased to hear that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, I've

4 asked Alison to cue slides we haven't looked

5 at yet and to give us some explanation of how

6 they were derived. So, Alison.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I'm just going

8 to -- I was going to talk about how we derive

9 the energy savings estimates, but I think is

10 it helpful if we go through these three slides

11 with the pump types first? Just to clarify

12 what we're all talking about. Silence. Okay,

13 I'll go ahead and do it.

14 So, this slide obviously we've

15 seen before. It's what HI recommends and it's

16 what we talked about at the last meeting. 

17 So then what we did with the next

18 two slides was make a crosswalk between the

19 additional pump types that DOE considered in

20 the framework document with what we think is

21 the appropriate ANSI/HI nomenclature for those

22 pumps and the diagrams just to make sure we're
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1 all on the same page.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

3 Cappellino, ITT. Where it says -- in the

4 second row there it says OH4 double suction. 

5 I'm not sure that double suction is actually

6 appropriate there.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, that was a

8 question that we got from manufacturers, that

9 some OH4 pumps which fall in the inline

10 category are double suction. And whether or

11 not they should be split apart into the single

12 suction in inline, and the double suction in

13 double suction. And there were differing

14 opinions on that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

16 MR. HUBER: There are some double

17 suction inline pumps, but they generally are

18 larger. And the horsepowers would probably be

19 much larger than we're considering anyway. 

20 But it's my personal opinion that

21 if you're going to put them in a category put

22 them in inline pumps.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, someone

2 else had expressed the opposite opinion on

3 that so I don't know if anyone else wants to

4 --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

6 MR. HUBER: I mean, it's an inline

7 configuration.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie

10 Cappellino. I've just never seen one.

11 MR. HUBER: We've got them.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: You guys make

13 them?

14 MR. HUBER: Yes.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: It's probably

16 kind of a unique animal.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

18 MR. CASE: That style of pump was

19 added during the last HI meeting to the new

20 standard. And I can't remember where we added

21 it, but it was added. And I can get you

22 clarification on where we added it, if it's in
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1 OH4 or --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, you changed the

3 nomenclature possibly.

4 MR. CASE: We had to make a change

5 to the nomenclature to make sure that we

6 included it.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, we'll

8 follow up on that one.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me pause for a

10 second. How are you all doing? Do we need a

11 5-minute bathroom break, or are we okay to

12 just keep going? I know we don't have too

13 long, that's right. Another 45-50 minutes. 

14 Okay, we're going to press on then. Okay.

15 MR. POWERS: I just want to make

16 one minor --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

18 MR. POWERS: Sorry, Chuck Powers. 

19 The description here does not match HI

20 completely. 

21 So, the HI category -- I get the

22 DOE has some definitions they use which is not
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1 as complete. But those descriptions are not,

2 you know, accurate.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So I pulled those

4 descriptions out of HI 1.1- 1.2 where

5 available. So, I mean we can --

6 MR. POWERS: I just think if

7 there's words that are missing, there's words

8 that need to be added, stuff like that.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we've got it.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so are there

11 any other questions on this page of pumps?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: In particular I

13 think as was suggested by Charlie and Al if

14 there are any deviations from what's described

15 here that's what we want to uncover now. 

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so this one

19 is -- the first line is another type of pump

20 we're aware of that could fall into either the

21 vertical turbine or radial split category as

22 it has similar bowls basically. And so we're
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1 considering whether or not that should be

2 included in one of those other categories. As

3 far as I'm aware there's no ANSI or HI

4 nomenclature for this type of pump.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

6 MR. POWERS: Yes, sorry. If

7 you're dealing with an enclosed system which

8 is what you could have with radially split

9 vertical as we call it.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Guide us to the

11 line you're referring to.

12 MR. POWERS: That top line.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Top line.

14 MR. POWERS: It's going to have

15 what they call, you know, the older school

16 guys would call it a suction can. The API and

17 others which adopt it and HI and all those,

18 the double casing.

19 And those radials are very

20 high-pressure, very specific. And that would

21 fall under the VS-6 category.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, Greg.
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1 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

2 Grundfos. I think looking at this diagram

3 it's something similar to one of the products

4 we make for machine tool applications where

5 it's immersed into the coolant tank

6 multi-stage and just has -- it's not a

7 vertical turbine, but it has a discharge head

8 and it suctions off the bottom with our

9 stages. But I don't know that it fits into

10 any of the existing --

11 MR. POWERS: But I don't think

12 what you make -- and I agree with you, Greg,

13 I don't think what you make is a radially

14 split as this shows up here. 

15 MR. CASE: Charlie, don't you make

16 something similar to that? Or is it Mark? I

17 thought you guys were volume of stamp stands. 

18 Mark, the top line there?

19 MR. ADIN: Greg, make sure you

20 turn on your microphone if you're going to

21 talk. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess, Mark, what
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1 we're looking for is a description of that top

2 row. And whether this description is

3 sufficient.

4 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

5 Xylem. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to get

6 back to you. It's not in my core product area

7 so I don't know that much detail about it. So

8 I can't answer the question.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So Alison, keep

10 going.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Does anyone

12 else have questions about the other pumps on

13 this page? 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

15 MR. CASE: I was just told we have

16 the latest version of 1.1. We will review it

17 tonight and get you an answer on what we would

18 classify that as if we've classified it.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so if no one
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1 else has anything on this slide I just want to

2 point out this is the only place we have

3 axial-mixed listed. We have no data for those

4 pumps.

5 We understand that in the scope of

6 one to two hundred horsepower they're probably

7 a very limited subset of pumps. So I don't

8 know if we want to have discussion about

9 whether people are okay with taking them out

10 of scope of this rulemaking right now, or if

11 we need to have further discussion on these

12 pumps.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick

15 question. What's the typical application for

16 them? Are they large, industrial type of

17 applications with very high operating hours?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: My understanding is

19 that they're large industrial, but does one of

20 the manufacturers want to take a crack?

21 MR. POWERS: Okay, I have to back

22 up and ask a question.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

2 MR. POWERS: Are we adding all

3 these to the discussion as being part of the

4 agreement? 

5 MS. WILLIAMS: So, this is just

6 setting up to discuss whether or not we want

7 to include them. So just to make sure we know

8 what we're talking about including or not

9 including.

10 MR. POWERS: Okay. So, to help

11 out. The VS-2 which you have up there is, you

12 know, HI and a lot of people would be a double

13 suction vertical that are used in power plants

14 or condensates. 

15 You'll see them in some pipeline

16 applications because people don't like to use

17 verticals in pipeline and when they do they

18 have to go double suction for various reasons. 

19 But they're in closed systems.

20 The bottom one has two

21 applications, answering Steve's question. One

22 is for power plants where they don't have
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1 large tower designs. They have small low

2 draft fan-type towers. They need very low

3 head. 

4 And they would be a large vertical

5 but they're 100,000; 200,000; 300,000 gallon

6 a minute type of products. Very large, you

7 know, these are 1,000 horsepower, 1,500, et

8 cetera. 

9 MR. HUBER: Are you talking about

10 axial mixed flow products?

11 MR. POWERS: No, the very bottom

12 one there where it's the vertical.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: The VS-3?

14 MR. POWERS: VS-3, yes. Right.

15 MR. HUBER: It actually makes --

16 MR. POWERS: Right. And then the

17 other application is used for water flood and

18 some other rain drainage.

19 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber,

20 Patterson. The greatest use of them at this

21 point is either huge irrigation projects or

22 de-watering after a storm like in New Orleans. 
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1 And we're talking about the

2 majority of them are sold that are

3 approximately 100,000 gallons up to 1 million

4 gallons a minute. Highly engineered, highly

5 custom work. It has no business in this

6 discussion at all.

7 MR. POWERS: No, but that's what I

8 was trying to understand the process. Chuck

9 again. Is if we're just trying to answer the

10 questions of what are these I don't think

11 we've talked about what should be in it or

12 not. I agree with you, Al.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so -- sorry,

14 this is Alison. Just to clarify, there's no

15 other slides for axial-mixed so I sort of

16 threw that discussion in here for now.

17 For the others we do need to have

18 further discussion about whether or not

19 they're included. But if you guys want to

20 confirm axial-mixed exclusion now then we can

21 do that and move on.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, it sounds like
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1 --

2 MR. HUBER: I'm fine with it not

3 being in there. I mean, it's just --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, thank you. 

6 Other -- yes. Is it on the --

7 MS. WILLIAMS: It's on the -- yes. 

8 So, if no one objects I'm going to put an okay

9 here.

10 MR. HUBER: No objection from me.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, done. Okay,

12 so for the rest of these pumps I've just

13 described I'm going to go through some data

14 for them and we can discuss the hours and that

15 sort of thing.

16 And just before I do get into the

17 numbers I do want to mention that some of the

18 pumps that DOE considered for inclusion are

19 not necessarily because they have high

20 shipments or high energy use, but that they

21 are inherently similar to products that are

22 already being considered for coverage.
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1 For example, the radial split

2 horizontal are very similar in some cases if

3 not nearly identical to the vertical pumps of

4 the same nature. And vertical turbines are

5 using the exact same bowls as the submersible

6 turbines. 

7 So, I just basically I'm stating

8 this here that we'll go look at the energy use

9 numbers, but there may be some other reasons

10 to consider including or excluding some of

11 these just depending on technology and that

12 kind of thing.

13 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. The

14 statement about vertical turbine is used

15 exactly the same for submersibles is not

16 completely true.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Some of them

18 do. I stand corrected.

19 MR. POWERS: A few of them do.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so the next

21 slide is the shipments. It's all over the

22 place as you can see. 
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1 So, there's no existing sources of

2 data on numbers of pumps that are specifically

3 for clean water. So, we're for some extent

4 starting from scratch here.

5 So, I've listed three various

6 estimates that we can discuss. The range of

7 industry shipments is basically manufacturers

8 estimating what percentage of the market share

9 that they think they have. And so that

10 creates, you know.

11 And I should add that these market

12 share estimates on based on a variety of

13 things that are not necessarily unit

14 shipments. They could be value, they could

15 be, you know, the HVAC market including other

16 equipment than pumps. So it's really hard to

17 actually create a valuable estimate out of

18 those because it's so hard to get the estimate

19 of market share by shipments. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg.

21 MS. WALTNER: Sorry, that didn't

22 quite clarify for me what I guess the --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: The range.

2 MS. WALTNER: Yes.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So this column,

4 right, we gathered manufacturers' shipments,

5 unit shipments of their pumps in that product

6 category and then asked them to estimate what

7 percentage of the market they think they hold. 

8 But they very commonly did not do

9 that by "we think we have 20 percent of the

10 shipments." They might think they have 20

11 percent of the value, or they might have 20

12 percent of the whole HVAC market including

13 valves and you know, other things. So there's

14 no really -- these are not necessarily very

15 valuable estimates, basically.

16 MS. WALTNER: And that's basically

17 their estimate of the whole market --

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

19 MS. WALTNER: -- based on their

20 estimate of what percentage of the market they

21 hold.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, it's just
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1 their own.

2 So what we tried to do with this

3 in the next column is we took the shipments

4 that we collected from the manufacturers and

5 we asked a market expert to estimate what

6 percent of the market by shipments he thought

7 that the manufacturers we talked to had. 

8 And that is where we got these

9 numbers in this column right here. Some of

10 them fall into the ranges of the manufacturers

11 and some of them do not.

12 And then the last column is sort

13 of a rough estimate. There are census

14 numbers. I know we've talked about this

15 before. HI does not agree with the census

16 numbers, but I'm just throwing it out here for

17 reference. 

18 These do include not just U.S.

19 production but account for imports. And as

20 you can see, you know, there's potentially a

21 lot of imports coming in in some of these

22 categories.
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1 So, none of these estimates are

2 really comparable. And I basically wanted to

3 use this to start a discussion hopefully about

4 whether this column has realistic estimates in

5 it or not.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And then Lot 11

7 plus.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry. I

9 separated this into the five pump types that

10 HI proposed for coverage and then the

11 additional ones that DOE has considered in the

12 framework document.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: And then did the

14 manufacturers, they also supplied the data

15 below the line.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve

18 Rosenstock.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

20 EEI. And the -- where it says estimated

21 shipments based on census, I guess the other

22 one, these are domestic shipments, right? 
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1 These are shipments to U.S. customers, right?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: So, the one in this

3 column is U.S. production.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right,

5 production, right.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then the one

8 to the right of that --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: The one to the

10 right includes U.S. production and accounts

11 for both imports and exports. 

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So it should be

14 shipments to U.S. customers.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So what

16 I'm looking at is for ESCC it looks like 90

17 percent of that type of pump is imports.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So that's an

19 estimate. The census does not differentiate,

20 it just says imports of centrifugal pumps. 

21 And we had, you know, a consultant estimate

22 that they're probably very small end suction
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1 close coupled pumps. It could be an erroneous

2 assumption, but there's something like 1

3 million pumps being imported.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then for some

5 of the other -- Steve Rosenstock, EEI -- for

6 some of the numbers below like RS-V it says

7 2,280. It would say -- looking at those two

8 numbers it says most of those pumps are

9 exported. Is that --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I don't know

11 that they're really comparable. It's, you

12 know, the one on the right is another estimate

13 of if you take all these pumps what percentage

14 do we think are clean water, which percentage

15 do you think would fall into the scope of this

16 rulemaking. 

17 So, there's a lot of estimate

18 built into all of these estimates and they're

19 not necessarily like subtractive or additive

20 or whatever.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

22 EEI. That helps to clarify but obviously this
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1 does have an impact when we're trying to

2 determine like Louis is saying, well, kind of

3 how much domestic energy are we talking about.

4 And with these huge ranges for

5 some of these, wow. Hmm. Thank you. 

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Agreed.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Rather

8 mind-blowing. Thank you.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just note

10 that now would be the time for industry to say

11 wow, you really missed the boat here, or

12 anybody else for that matter. Chuck.

13 MR. POWERS: Yes, I have a

14 question. That is who's the consultant? 

15 Again, who's getting you this data?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, I'm not

17 getting the data from a consultant. I'm just

18 having them estimate some percentages.

19 MR. POWERS: Who's them? One

20 person or 50 people? 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: It's one person.

22 MR. POWERS: One person.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So I mean,

2 that's why I'm having this up here for

3 discussion, right? 

4 So, I mean, I'm particularly

5 interested in whether you guys think that the

6 numbers in this column have any bearing on

7 real life. Or if, you know, you can look at

8 some and be like that's way out of line,

9 right?

10 MR. POWERS: Where I have doubt,

11 so you at least say manufacturer reporting is

12 low and these kind of things. 

13 But where I have doubt is some of

14 these products you're talking about here in my

15 view are not -- some of them are not in a

16 standardized design. There's some here that

17 get into more specialized case by case, right?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you talking

19 about a pump type, or just the numbers

20 involved in any one row?

21 MR. POWERS: No, pump type. Some

22 of these pump types are, you know, Charlie
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1 gets into it, we get into it, but I just, I'm

2 concerned about this one person coming up with

3 data that's going to affect the industry.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: And that's why I'm

5 soliciting other feedback because --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel,

7 you're next.

8 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I was just

9 going to point out that I think we've talked

10 about before that the Hydraulic Institute does

11 not collect unit volume data --

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.

13 MR. HANDZEL: -- from their

14 manufacturers. We collect sales data.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Which we still have

16 not received.

17 MR. HANDZEL: I can't respond to

18 that. I'm not sure who you asked for it from.

19 But so I mean, asking us our

20 opinion for it, it's very difficult for us to

21 quantify. I mean, if anything, you collected

22 data from each of us so you probably have a
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1 better snapshot of the industry than any of us

2 have ever seen.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I mean what we

4 don't have, right, is what percentage of the

5 industry the people we talk to represent.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Like we don't know. 

8 And so it's a hard thing to actually quantify. 

9 So you know, if you guys don't know maybe you

10 have recommendations for other experts I

11 should talk to and get, you know, an average

12 of five people. I don't know.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I think you're

14 going to struggle to find experts. Because if

15 they are experts they're probably an

16 ex-employee of one of ours --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

18 MR. HANDZEL: -- who may have

19 worked for multiple companies and things like

20 that. But this is a very difficult thing for

21 any of us to even comment on because we don't

22 know.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

2 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

3 Let me ask you some specific questions here,

4 Alison.

5 This range that you came up with,

6 are you saying you went to manufacturers and

7 they gave you this range? Or one manufacturer

8 gave you the low range, one gave you a high

9 range?

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So we asked a

11 number of manufacturers how many shipments

12 they ship and what percentage of the market

13 they think they have. And so then we

14 calculated from that an estimated market. And

15 then we just presented the range across

16 manufacturers.

17 MR. HUBER: No, you missed it

18 again. First column. Where did the first

19 number come from? Where did the second number

20 --

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So, the

22 first number came from one -- you know, say we
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1 talked to 10 manufacturers. And they all gave

2 us shipments, and they all estimated what

3 percentage of market share we have. 

4 So for each one of them we can

5 calculate the estimated shipments as a whole

6 for that product class. And then I just pull

7 out the minimum and the maximum across those

8 10 estimates.

9 MR. HUBER: Okay. 

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

11 MR. HUBER: So these estimated

12 shipments are really what they told you they

13 ship plus the market share that they thought

14 they had.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

16 MR. HUBER: And then you do the

17 math. And obviously whoever was on the

18 right-hand side has an inflated idea --

19 (Laughter)

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, no, they

21 could have a very deflated idea, right? If

22 you think you only have 1 percent of --
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1 MR. HUBER: I don't know. 

2 Somebody's got it wrong.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

4 MR. STARR: Is it possible to

5 maybe take this data and kind of do a

6 statistical analysis on it and try to figure

7 out -- not enough?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, it worries

9 me just because the market share estimates are

10 so crazy, just like representing all sorts of

11 different things.

12 I mean, we could certainly do some

13 sort of analysis on it, but I wouldn't guess

14 that there would be any --

15 MR. STARR: Just looking at this

16 the most accurate data I guess is probably

17 RS-V because it's closest range. The amount

18 that they are is only a factor of three

19 different.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, but you don't

21 -- I mean, I didn't actually throw outliers

22 out I don't think. So, in the ranges.
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1 So, if one person, one

2 manufacturer was totally off the --

3 MR. STARR: Well, I mean, if one

4 guy thought he was 2 percent of the market he

5 may --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

7 MR. STARR: His scaler that he's

8 using could get him off by quite a bit.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct, correct. 

10 MR. STARR: So I think anybody

11 that had more than 10 times -- they thought

12 they were less than 10 percent of the market

13 then they're probably not accurate. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, keep going. 

15 Follow on. Al Huber.

16 MR. HUBER: Were there any, and

17 we're not looking for names here, but were

18 there any that were consistent amongst the 10?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Like any of these

20 product classes where --

21 MR. HUBER: All right, let's take

22 for instance, let's say on end suction close
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1 coupled. Of the 10 were there any group of

2 manufacturers that numbers were reasonably

3 close after you calculated their market share?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so let me -- I

5 will have to go back and check my data on

6 that. And I think that's what they were

7 suggesting is that if I just cut out the

8 people who probably have a very low percentage

9 and don't know we can readjust that.

10 MR. HUBER: I think probably we

11 need to re-massage these numbers and take

12 another look at it. Because I think you need

13 to throw the outliers out.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And again,

15 that's -- in the next column that shouldn't be

16 a problem because that's based solely on --

17 sorry, on this column I agree with you and I

18 will go back and look at the data in this and

19 see if we can narrow the range for these.

20 MR. HUBER: Okay.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm just saying

22 that on the next column the outliers should
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1 not be a problem.

2 MR. HUBER: Well, where did this

3 figure come from?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: So, this figure

5 comes from adding up all the shipments that

6 the manufacturers we talked to reported to us. 

7 And then my consultant estimated what

8 percentage of the market he thought those

9 manufacturers had for each equipment class. 

10 So, yes. One person, one

11 estimate. Yes.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

13 MR. POWERS: So, if I can

14 understand the process better, I'm going to

15 make some assumptions. 

16 One, there's very few

17 manufacturers that make all of these, right?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So it's

19 accounted for separately.

20 MR. POWERS: So this 10 you had,

21 you may have only had 1 or 2 that only made 1

22 or 2 of these.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. And so,

2 yes.

3 MR. POWERS: Okay, so that could

4 really skew it if they're, you know, not

5 accurate or whatever.

6 Number two, the influx of external

7 shipping outside the U.S. could be a huge

8 factor.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: From --

10 MR. POWERS: How much went here

11 and how much went --

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So numbers

13 that the manufacturers reported to us that are

14 shipping outside the country.

15 MR. POWERS: And then another

16 question I had. When you sat with them and

17 you asked them the questions, and I hope that

18 you weren't just, you know, leading them to

19 the water, right. Did you say these are the

20 exclusions? Don't include any of those. And

21 these are the parameters. Don't just give

22 them 200 horsepower, but you say water pumps. 
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1 You said maximum this, 2 and 4 pole. Did you

2 give them that?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I don't think

4 we requested the parameters, did we? So,

5 again, this data we're actually hoping to

6 refine. We sent out -- I should have stated

7 this earlier. We sent out a second survey. 

8 We've obviously learned things since we first

9 sent out the first one. And in the second

10 survey we tried to be much more specific about

11 the parameters and that type of thing.

12 MR. POWERS: Okay, because in my

13 thinking, just one example. When you look at

14 temperatures of -10 to 120, right, the reason

15 that's proposed there is because of the way

16 the product is designed, not necessarily what

17 it's actually pumping. Right?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

19 MR. POWERS: Okay, you understand

20 that. So, when you go to them, you know,

21 telling them parameters, saying it's this box. 

22 Not saying that this is the way we're going to
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1 go out to review and these are the exclusions

2 and being a little more specific so it's not

3 just some marketing guy that's trying to say

4 oh, we're really big in the market, we're 90

5 percent and there's nobody else. 

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. No, I

7 understand. I don't think that is what

8 happened. But agreed, we were not specific

9 enough in the first one. I do think that most

10 manufacturers did consider those scope limits

11 when they gave us the --

12 MR. POWERS: It's not what they

13 considered. Did you say these are --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so and I'm

15 saying we did not. I agree. But in the

16 second survey we tried to be a lot more

17 specific about it.

18 MR. POWERS: Is that here, the

19 second survey?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: No, we have not --

21 we don't have enough to aggregate yet. We

22 just sent it out a couple of weeks ago.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

2 MR. HUBER: You sent it out last

3 week, right?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: No, it was sent out

5 January 10. Right? Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan.

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub. It

8 was sent out January 10. It may have been

9 posted to the SharePoint for everyone to view

10 on the 22nd, but it was sent out to

11 manufacturers specifically.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

13 MR. HUBER: My suggestion is you

14 don't get into any of these calculations, or

15 any of these scope ideas until we get this

16 survey done and analyzed.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. We felt

18 that we needed to provide something to the

19 committee to look at and so we did it based on

20 the data we have. And so we'll certainly

21 refine these numbers as we get new data.

22 MR. HUBER: Now, I'll give you a
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1 for instance. On split case pumps or what you

2 call --

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Axial split.

4 MR. HUBER: -- axial split if the

5 manufacturers put in fire pumps and other

6 things that aren't water pumps, and they can

7 do that.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm pretty sure

9 that no one put in fire pumps.

10 MR. HUBER: Okay. Well then, you

11 know, I can't tell. I was trying to come up

12 with a reason why there's such a huge

13 differential between the census and this

14 other.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, I

16 assume that my consultant assumed that more of

17 the census data was not clean water than what

18 was reported to us. So, yes.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm hoping if

20 there's anything to be said that's valuable

21 about this we should say it now. Chuck.

22 MR. POWERS: I'm going to try to
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1 be really clear. If Lucas wants to have some

2 type of substantial completion -- I'll use

3 that good word because that's a good pump and

4 contractor word -- by a date this year we need

5 to focus on what makes the most sense. And

6 we're going to boil the ocean here if we're

7 not careful. 

8 And the reason I'll say that, I'll

9 try to give a clear definition. Trying to

10 determine the quantity of pumps, you can do it

11 several different ways.

12 One, there is foundries around the

13 world that make certain stuff. We all go to

14 those same guys. You can go to them and say

15 what's your volume, what's your weight. You

16 can do a reverse calculation on that factor,

17 right?

18 Another way is to say I know what

19 I make, I know what I ship. And I'll look at

20 some of these numbers and I go, really. 

21 Because if my number, you know, is

22 equal to one of these numbers and you're
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1 showing this is the number by 10 guys I'm

2 saying hmm, something is broken here.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Obviously 10 was

4 just a number I threw out. There's any number

5 of --

6 MR. POWERS: Oh, I know. I'm just

7 --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Agreed, though.

9 MR. POWERS: So what I do know is

10 when we focus on this range that EU has done

11 100 reports and been at it a lot longer, we

12 all talked about. And when you focus on

13 circulators if that ends up being in this. 

14 There's three or four players here in the room

15 that are the gorillas. You may have a bunch

16 of other guys but they're really small, you

17 know. 

18 You know what I mean? There's a

19 way to look at this to say what makes the most

20 sense. Let's get something done and not go

21 somewhere.

22 Because some of these other
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1 products you mention here, they -- a lot of

2 them don't deal with water. 

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Some percentage,

4 right.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Alison, would

6 it be productive to go to the next table?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, if no

8 one -- what I was hoping to do was perhaps

9 refine the shipments estimates and then move

10 on. But we'll just go with what I have and

11 hope they're correct. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

13 MR. STARR: So, I have a

14 suggestion to maybe tighten up your numbers. 

15 Maybe through a non-disclosure act with

16 individual manufacturers in this room you

17 could have a private discussion about where

18 the numbers are messed up. 

19 Perhaps some of the information

20 that they know about their shipments can help

21 inform where there might be problems in your

22 chart here. So, I don't know. 
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1 That would maybe -- that way it

2 would help you focus. Because if you don't

3 know --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

5 MR. STARR: -- if they have a

6 likely idea where the problems are. If you

7 hear three different people say there's

8 problems in a given area then you might likely

9 be a problem in that area and focus more of

10 your effort there.

11 MR. POWERS: And then one last

12 comment, Alison, just to help.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

14 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers again,

15 is -- and I try to stress it. When you go to

16 this chart you don't have the HI nomenclature. 

17 Just bear with me.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I'll add those

19 in there.

20 MR. POWERS: Well, what's

21 important about it, the DS, the double suction

22 as you call it, if they weren't given the
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1 parameters and they were given that and

2 they're trying to guess what that was -- just

3 bear with me --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: No, I believe we

5 gave the manufacturers a crosswalk when we

6 solicited this data from them. So they had

7 the crosswalk available.

8 MR. POWERS: Okay, but my point is

9 when you look at double suction you have it

10 for two types of products where HI might, you

11 know, list it specifically if you go back one

12 more slide.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So that's

14 where this came from actually is in the

15 interviews. Some manufacturers were like oh,

16 is it really just BB1? What about these OH4? 

17 So in the original crosswalk it

18 was only BB1 and this is only in here to

19 clarify what we learned from the manufacturers

20 during the interviews. So that's what I said,

21 these are some of the points that as we move

22 towards HI nomenclature it's helpful to get
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1 those nailed down so we actually know what

2 we're talking about.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you scan -- on

4 slide 13 can you scan through the distribution

5 of pump sizes listed there? Since many of you

6 are the major pump manufacturers can you say

7 whether these are way off, or whether they're

8 representative? Can you comment on slide 13? 

9 Charlie.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie

11 Cappellino with ITT. We've done studies

12 before more broadly across a wide variety of

13 pump types. I would say the distribution you

14 have here is reasonably accurate, that there's

15 kind of a sweet spot in that 5 to 25, 3 to 25

16 horsepower range when you look at general

17 applications.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I would note, Greg,

19 you're nodding your head. Do you wish to

20 contribute to the record?

21 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,

22 Grundfos. No, I agree with Charlie that just
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1 looking at the distribution on those slides,

2 it doesn't look bad.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Mark

4 Handzel.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

6 Xylem. I would agree too. I think of all the

7 charts we've looked at this one probably has

8 it right.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, good.

10 (Laughter)

11 MR. HANDZEL: Well, it's just a

12 good representation of, you know, I mean

13 knowing where our most popular sizes are, what

14 horsepowers they use, it pretty closely

15 matches what's shown on this chart.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: And I presume the

17 blacked out is because you don't have enough

18 data, is that correct?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. We don't

20 have enough to aggregate and report.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: And again we've
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1 asked for it. We're hoping to get enough in

2 the next round.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie

5 again. I just assume this is number of units,

6 is that correct?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: We had to clarify

9 that.

10 MR. POWERS: I would challenge

11 some of this because the double suction,

12 again, your broad range, zero percent over 500

13 horsepower is probably not accurate.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, that could be

15 that people did not report to us. So, it's a

16 legitimate point.

17 MR. POWERS: I would also go, and

18 I went further and calculated on your next

19 sheet your number bases, the part that gets

20 confusing is 1 to 3 and then 3 to 10. You

21 probably mean to say over 3 to 10 because then

22 you're mixing the two together.
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1 When I did my calculations they

2 didn't come out like yours and you knew

3 assumptions that I didn't know. Skewing the

4 data.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: We clarified that

6 in the second survey as well, so I apologize

7 for that.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Alison, this is just

10 like one typical year? Mark Handzel from

11 Xylem.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, one year, yes.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: And what about then

14 -- that's a useful comment. What about 14? 

15 What would you say about connected load by

16 horsepower?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So, maybe we'll --

18 well, we could skip to the next slide and go

19 through the calculation of connected load

20 first if that's helpful.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I was

22 just doing.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: No, I'm on 15

2 because --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, on 15, okay. 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: So, these numbers

5 again are super rough estimates. We took the

6 best estimate shipments, used the manufacturer

7 data we collected to develop a weighted

8 average horsepower between one and two hundred

9 for that equipment class. And then multiplied

10 those together to get the connected load for

11 one year of shipments.

12 I will acknowledge that we're not

13 positive what horsepower the manufacturers

14 were reporting, whether they were shaft power,

15 hydraulic power, or motor horsepower in all

16 cases. So that's something else that's being

17 refined in the second survey. So there's

18 probably some issues there.

19 So that gives us connected load. 

20 I have two estimates. The other one we took

21 the median shaft power horsepower based on the

22 HI survey for model availability. So just to
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1 give a couple of different estimates of how

2 big we think these might be.

3 And then to estimate the annual

4 energy used for year of shipments we're

5 estimating a percent load based on assumed

6 average flow of 50 percent. So, it's 74

7 percent power.

8 The hours of operation in column A

9 are from a consultant based on hours of

10 operation per application and the distribution

11 of applications per product class. And then

12 the second column is directly what the EU used

13 for their estimates. So they may or may not

14 be representative of U.S. use.

15 And so we used those to calculate

16 two different annual energy use numbers for a

17 year of shipments. So, questions, concerns?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Foster.

19 MR. FOSTER: Steve Rosenstock had

20 to leave and he asked me to make this comment

21 when we came to this slide. While we

22 recognize that the overwhelming majority of
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1 pumps shipped are electrically driven there

2 are gas-driven products too. 

3 So we're not trying to make a big

4 issue out of it. We'd like to make sure that

5 the gas input is also included in the final

6 analysis.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So we didn't

8 collect any data on pumps driven with engines. 

9 We have asked for it in the second survey. So

10 far we have not received any information on

11 those. So if we do get such data we can

12 consider it.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel. Yes,

14 I think we heard in the first meeting

15 something like 99 percent -- I think this is

16 what I heard -- were powered electrically, by

17 electric motors.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Especially with fire

19 pumps excluded.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MR. POWERS: And I think when you
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1 go to slide 18 we're going to have a good

2 discussion on that one.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Chuck. 

4 And now, additional comments on this, on slide

5 15. Do we have anything additional here? Al.

6 MR. HUBER: Where did you get this

7 average percent --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, it's totally

10 made up. I had to do a quick calculation. So

11 we have a lot of data to work on the energy

12 use estimates and we'll work on a better

13 estimate of the percent load.

14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 

15 How are you intending to do that? What's

16 going to be the better calculation?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I mean we're

18 collecting load profiles for commercial

19 buildings. We're collecting, you know, we're

20 trying to collect actual data that will help

21 us pair duty points with pumps that are in the

22 application and determine where they fall on
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1 their operation.

2 MR. HUBER: How large a variation

3 of applications are you doing? Are you doing

4 very, very small samples and then

5 extrapolating this general --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I mean what

7 we're trying to do, and we can talk about this

8 later. It's probably a longer conversation. 

9 But we are trying to do commercial building

10 simulations for that application.

11 We have some data for agriculture

12 from the FRIS, Federal -- I don't remember

13 what it stands for. Something irrigation. 

14 Farm and Ranch Irrigation Survey. That's a

15 U.S. national thing. 

16 And we also have a large database

17 from a utility on agricultural applications. 

18 The same utility provided a municipal

19 database, and we have very limited data on

20 industrial applications at the moment.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

22 MR. HUBER: So you're going to
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1 combine all of those?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: So, typically in

3 our analyses we'll look at those sectors

4 separately throughout like the LCC and the

5 national energy savings. And then, yes, we'll

6 aggregate them into one number. That's the

7 goal.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Al

9 first, followed by Alison. Now to Louis.

10 MR. STARR: So, I think the

11 Department of Energy does a lot of funding

12 with ASHRAE. They have that diversity of what

13 those VFDs are for the -- they have -- there

14 at PNNL, they have 16 prototypes.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So we are

16 using the NREL data set or building set for

17 the commercial building simulations. I'm

18 having some problems with them so I need to

19 check in on that, but.

20 MR. STARR: And then the other

21 thing is is I think we actually have, and we

22 use some kind of industrial -- we have this
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1 percent thing. I don't know, it's not split

2 out by pumps but it has something else for

3 different equipment that we have in the

4 Northwest which maybe you could use some of

5 that data as well.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: I think I missed

9 it. Could you explain --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Is your mike on?

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Could you explain

12 connected load A column versus connected load

13 B column again?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So I just

15 used two different estimates of what the

16 average horsepower might be. One is from the

17 manufacturer data that we collected, a

18 shipment weighted average of that, and the

19 other is a median shaft power from the HI

20 database of pump efficiency that was provided

21 to us. 

22 So, the reason we did two was
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1 because some of these weighted average

2 manufacturer data ones don't have very many

3 manufacturers reporting and so we're not sure

4 if they're really representative.

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

7 MR. POWERS: So, if I can

8 understand, Alison. And I think what you're

9 trying to do is excellent in trying to

10 understand the data.

11 So, if I just take one and go

12 across. So, the 134 comes from this report by

13 one consultant and --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: No, it comes from

15 multiple manufacturers with an estimate by one

16 consultant.

17 MR. POWERS: Okay. But it was

18 enough that you had to send out a second

19 survey. So, 134 is questionable.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So --

21 MR. POWERS: Let me finish. The

22 weighted average is a few people, and I agree
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1 it may not be enough.

2 You go across to the average

3 percent load and you said you took a swag.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

5 MR. POWERS: I look at estimated

6 number of hours and 1,913 and we know that

7 total hours is 8,760 a year. And my

8 calculation doesn't come out to the 1.44 on

9 terawatts but that just could be because of

10 the way I'm looking at it. So, we need more

11 analysis and data to understand it. 

12 But what interests me is it

13 doesn't really matter what's in the above

14 group because we're saying we want to apply a

15 policy towards those. It's more important to

16 say this data which you have blanks in because

17 you don't have enough feedback, I understand,

18 is where we need to maybe put a little more

19 focus. 

20 But those numbers may not be as

21 big and maybe that's why the EU, some reports

22 I have, shows that it may not have been enough
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1 value to make a difference, right?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. I mean,

3 that's -- we put them both in here so we could

4 compare the ones for discussion with the ones

5 that have been pretty much agreed to. So

6 people would have some point of reference.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: In my experience

8 doing many, many years of Department of Energy

9 appliance standards shipments is always the

10 toughest. It's always, always, always. 

11 And so that's why the analysts,

12 the consultant team, they turn cartwheels

13 trying to figure out some way to make

14 representations. 

15 And then based on your input, this

16 next survey, whatever else that they can

17 cobble together will continue to refine these

18 analyses.

19 MR. POWERS: And then one last

20 question. This is Chuck. 

21 On the next slide you presented to

22 us you said the HI data was 2,160 and you felt
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1 it was higher than that.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, I'm not saying

3 that we feel that. I'm just saying when we

4 collected some additional estimates from

5 manufacturers since then -- I had another

6 sheet somewhere, but there were some estimates

7 that were more in the range of 3,000. 

8 And then some people's estimates

9 for hydronic heating are higher and so it

10 depends also on the segmentation of hydronic

11 heating and potable water applications.

12 We do think we'll be getting the

13 data to be able to disaggregate that based on

14 model type. And so we do hope to have that

15 done at some point.

16 MR. POWERS: Okay. So, but when I

17 go back to your previous sheet you're showing

18 1,930 and 2,188.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, yes. So those

20 are not -- so, the 2,160 was from the HI

21 circulator-specific survey. So, we don't have

22 any HI estimates as far as I know for the
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1 hours of operation for these pumps on slide

2 15.

3 MR. POWERS: Okay. Because, I

4 mean just going by my own experience being in

5 the field a whole lot like if you take the

6 VT-S submersible 4- and 6-inch if it's on --

7 usually they're not running 24 hours a day. 

8 They're either a partial growing season thing

9 for 3 months a year, or they're on a booster

10 system that pressures up and the normalizes,

11 et cetera, and runs. Storage tank and those

12 run. 

13 And I'm just going to take a guess

14 because I've been responsible for operating

15 systems and running things and I've seen the

16 submersibles run about 10 percent of the day. 

17 That's my best recommended term. I'm saying,

18 some run longer, but about 10 percent of the

19 24 a day.

20 So again, if you have, you know,

21 even go as high as one-tenth of the 8,700

22 hours, you know, the 1,500 you have here on
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1 that sheet just seems to me to be --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: A little high. 

3 Okay.

4 MR. POWERS: -- high. Again, I'm

5 just looking at -- I'm trying to pinpoint

6 something that I can -- again, I can say

7 submersible, okay. Six inch, booster systems,

8 whatever. Fifteen hundred hours seems to be

9 excessive.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

11 MR. POWERS: But it also

12 calculated out to be a very, very low annual

13 energy. Well, not very low but one of the

14 lower numbers.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts.

17 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American

18 Water. I just wanted to comment about the

19 submersibles. In the water industry though

20 they would be running most of the day. So

21 that's a different use. But in the water

22 industry we'd be running them around the
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1 clock.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I want to take

3 final comments and very quickly because we

4 have about 5 more minutes. Then I want to cue

5 up a few things for tomorrow. Tom, you have

6 a final comment?

7 MR. ECKMAN: Based on the metered

8 use we've got the irrigation systems in the

9 Northwest are running between 1,500 and 2,000

10 hours depending on the crop and location. And

11 those are some submersibles, some are direct

12 pulling from a canal. So the lift isn't much

13 but they're running center pivots, making most

14 of the McDonald's potatoes in the country, so. 

15 Three months. Depends on what the crop is. 

16 They're 24/7. Once they're on they water till

17 there's no evaporation left.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we're

19 shifting gears now as we think about tomorrow

20 just for a change of scene here.

21 First of all, we had a very, very

22 productive day. We covered a lot of ground. 
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1 I'm very impressed by your stamina. Well

2 done. We really did very well.

3 We spent a fair amount of time

4 going over possible definitions and the

5 general description of pump components. I'm

6 not sure we'll get full closure on that

7 tomorrow, maybe that's not necessary. 

8 But also I'd refer you to page 5

9 in your handout. Please look at that.

10 This I believe represents kind of

11 our standing hypothesis surrounding the scope

12 of negotiation. It's just a hypothesis that

13 maybe the stuff in green which is HI's

14 proposal I think predominantly if not

15 completely is one aspect of the potential

16 scope.

17 And then the maybes you see in

18 yellow. And I think we've largely confirmed

19 the reds as being nos, although that's subject

20 to further discussion and confirmation, I

21 presume.

22 We've also done well in kind of
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1 globally describing the exclusions and the

2 parameters. Perhaps both of those need more

3 specific definitions. And I'm not sure we'll

4 get to those tomorrow.

5 But tomorrow we do hope to see if

6 we can get a better sense of scope. And

7 somehow that we can describe scope so that it

8 informs our sense of the duration of the

9 negotiation and also what would be included,

10 for example, in test procedure consideration,

11 stuff like that.

12 In addition, tomorrow I'm going to

13 suggest we start off first thing with one

14 thing we didn't cover today which is metric

15 for pump efficiency. 

16 And then following from there

17 going to testing or test procedure -- testing

18 overview and then test procedure. And then

19 figure out what else we're going to do for the

20 rest of the day.

21 But in the remaining minute or two

22 that we have here I was going to invite Lucas
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1 Adin to just speak for a moment about the

2 metric for pump efficiency just to cue this

3 up. Just so you'll have your appetite whetted

4 for tomorrow's discussion.

5 MR. ADIN: Thanks, Doug. I'm

6 actually going to backtrack just a little bit

7 and echo what Doug said earlier.

8 Our general hope for these two

9 meetings was to try and come to a vote on the

10 items that we have listed in here,

11 understanding now after the discussion we've

12 had today that realistically there's probably

13 some more analysis, maybe some more data to

14 collect before a lot of the folks in this

15 room, perhaps myself included, will feel

16 comfortable deciding which of those things in

17 the yellow are going to go into the green or

18 the red category.

19 But the other, as Doug mentioned,

20 the other substantive items that we still have

21 yet to discuss in the agenda are the metric

22 that we'll use to rate pump efficiency and
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1 then the test procedure that we prospectively

2 would use to actually perform that

3 measurement.

4 We're not necessarily planning on

5 talking about specific elements of the 40.6

6 test procedure or any other prospective test

7 procedure we might use. We're just talking

8 generally high-level about pump testing and

9 how different components would be included in

10 that measurement.

11 So, not necessarily to make any

12 particular decision about those things, but

13 just to have a conceptual framework to use as

14 we approach all these items. Because

15 prospectively those might inform decisions on

16 what we're going to do about coverage, or

17 scope, rather.

18 And also because we are on a

19 time-line implicitly with the test procedure

20 because it's an integral part of this whole

21 thing. So, we at least have to get the ideas

22 flowing about how testing is going to work so
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1 that we can kind of set up our discussions in

2 the next meeting and the meeting after that. 

3 Because we're going to be moving relatively

4 quickly on those things.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So,

6 I've laid out what we intend to cover

7 tomorrow.

8 Now, I want to, in addition to

9 thank everyone. Anybody that wishes to make

10 a closing remark for -- oh, one more thing.

11 We're scheduled to start tomorrow

12 at 8 a.m. There was discussion at the last

13 meeting about trying to move that time

14 somewhat, mostly because the logic that sticks

15 with me is those folks on the west coast it's

16 5 a.m. out there when we start here at 8. Do

17 we have any folks from the west coast? Can

18 you tell? Can't tell from the area codes or

19 anything.

20 The Federal Register notice I

21 presume said the meeting tomorrow is going to

22 start at 8 a.m. All of the negotiators are
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1 here and present to start at 8 a.m. I'm going

2 to suggest that we start at 8 a.m. tomorrow. 

3 One or two of you won't make it at

4 8 but will be here perhaps no later than 9 I

5 know because one or two have mentioned it to

6 me. 

7 But tomorrow at the end of the day

8 I think we can again reconsider whether you

9 want to jigger with the times slightly. 

10 Because I promised you that previously. You

11 may not recall. We'll take additional bits of

12 advocacy on those points.

13 But tomorrow at 8 o'clock right

14 here in this room. You're going to be doing

15 sign-in, Emily, yes? So Emily will be down

16 there bright and early beginning at 7:30-ish

17 or 7:15-ish? Yes. 

18 So, thanks for a really good day. 

19 Closing comments? Any comments from anybody,

20 any member at this point to close out the day? 

21 Have a lovely evening. Get a good

22 night's sleep. We'll see you here bright and
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1 early, 8 a.m.

2 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

3 went off the record at 6:02 p.m.)

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

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A-G-E-N-D-A 3:9

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115:19

a.m 1:11 4:2 9:7

426:12,16,22

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abbreviations

247:5,17

Abigail 1:15 7:15

ability 39:14 46:8

46:22 73:10 79:8

359:6

able 13:9 15:6

20:20 41:15 54:18

78:13 79:15 83:12

112:3 117:19

126:19 131:12,14

159:19 184:4

353:3 354:5

418:13

Absolutely 347:2

AC 40:10

accept 78:22 228:3

234:16

acceptable 186:21

190:16

Acceptance 343:22

accepted 49:19

115:16 182:16

accepting 72:8

accepts 49:21,22

access 19:11

accessible 20:15

accidentally 170:11

accommodate

161:20 199:19

358:8,21

accommodated

200:3

accommodates

175:13

accomplish 260:22

account 380:19

accounted 277:9

393:19

accounts 283:19

309:10 382:10

accurate 10:18

306:5 368:2

390:16 391:13

394:5 404:14

406:13

achieve 71:9

112:22 363:1

acknowledge

408:12

act 401:15

action 12:5 14:21

36:18 66:5 73:15

73:17 99:16 290:9

actual 52:1 150:6

233:8,12 253:16

261:8 280:19

285:20 304:4,12

305:7 335:22

355:4 411:20

adamantly 204:21

adapt 289:13 359:8

359:9

adapting 351:1

add 15:14 62:22

64:20 70:5 141:8

144:9 177:1 192:7

234:20 235:17

240:21 249:19

294:18 316:14

319:13 323:11

347:19 352:11

359:18 361:1

378:11 402:18

added 15:11 19:14

99:4 176:10 199:2

259:4 336:17

348:13 366:19,20

366:21,22 368:8

adder 160:14

adding 31:6 77:1

140:18 313:18

373:2 393:5

addition 199:3

264:12 423:12

426:8

additional 14:6

18:2 20:3 62:7,17

62:22 80:14 92:19

92:22 98:14 105:9

105:11,17 121:11

121:13 127:18

128:22 140:11

143:11 185:4

192:9 199:3

216:13 221:21

234:15 273:6

280:18 284:6,8

294:18 297:7

318:9 348:15

364:19 381:11

411:4,5 418:4

427:11

additions 21:3

additive 383:19

address 14:9 31:10

32:2 36:22 52:6

60:16 83:18 89:20

141:10 208:4

241:20 242:8

251:11 278:15

288:4 316:1

353:14

addressed 27:21

40:14 57:3 194:10

262:3 306:19

addresses 32:16

190:9

addressing 22:13

60:11 101:12

adequate 282:14

282:15

adequately 43:18

233:2 288:20

adhere 254:2

Adin 1:14 6:12,12

11:20,20 12:17,17

14:5,7 18:11,12

19:16,16 27:14,14

33:18 41:22,22

51:19,20,20 63:2

63:3,12 69:11,12

69:12 85:13,14

88:20 89:17,18

91:2,17 95:4,4,17

95:17 97:11 101:7

101:7 102:5 103:3

103:22 104:6

105:4 108:4,5,15

108:18 111:22

112:1,17 117:8,9

118:15,16 130:9

130:10 134:4

171:1,4,5,5 178:4

185:20,21 187:13

187:14,22 189:11

189:17,21 190:18

194:2,11,16,19

195:8 200:5,6,15

207:21,21 210:20

211:8 216:17,18

223:22 224:1

225:2,14,20

226:18 227:4

229:9 247:1,2,12

248:7,14 252:4

257:5,10 261:14

266:6 267:20

268:6 271:18

274:6 292:16

293:13,20 294:2,5

315:9,10 357:14

358:10,10 359:1,4

359:9 360:10

370:19 424:1,5

adjust 99:6 186:17

186:22 187:1

adopt 62:20 64:14

295:19 369:17

adopted 34:20

adopting 202:8,8

advance 11:12

18:21

advantage 54:18

56:18 201:10

352:14 353:19

advice 88:8

advocacy 427:12

advocate 57:18

73:19

advocates 26:21

61:1 65:10 71:22

74:22 83:10,11

193:20 300:1

302:18

advocating 59:17

affect 386:3

afforded 82:17

after-market 29:8

ag 195:14,15 196:5

agenda 3:14 7:22

7:22 8:4,13 9:6,17

10:6,7,8 20:5

424:21

aggregate 15:7

285:7 396:21

405:20 413:6

ago 18:16 61:1

207:12 252:2,5

311:1 325:6 339:4

339:12 396:22

agree 50:15 58:6

87:7 108:13

109:17 110:7

115:6 119:17

129:6 133:10

136:12,19 166:7

166:14 190:18

196:7 197:17

204:18 205:10

219:8 224:14

228:3 236:13

238:17 244:20

247:21 256:3

257:15 261:10

262:20 308:13

312:8 315:2

370:12 375:12

380:15 392:17

396:15 404:22

405:6 415:22

agreed 61:1 87:11

93:17,19 107:15

137:10 244:18

246:22 253:2

342:19 384:6

396:8 400:8 417:5

agreeing 248:5
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101:20 126:4

146:8 245:17

373:4

agrees 116:7 159:3

agricultural 196:12

198:7 199:19

412:17

agriculture 197:19

412:11

Ah 98:2

ahead 12:10 29:13

29:15 40:3 89:17

96:9 100:18 103:2

129:5 145:16

162:15 239:6

241:20 252:13

291:6,7,17 293:1

294:4,19 309:11

313:11 324:5

325:12 326:9

327:12 330:15

331:2 337:13

340:4,15 345:10

364:13

AHR 308:3

AHRI 7:7

air 216:19 302:4

307:20 349:1

Air-Conditioning

2:9

akin 216:19

Al 5:17 22:20,21

31:22 32:2 47:20

47:21 63:13,14

66:2 68:4,5 70:15

70:16,17 85:3,16

92:22 95:8,10,10

95:11 96:5,11,18

114:1,2 115:7

116:11 122:21

123:17 124:15,22

125:10,12,12

127:6 131:3

134:19 137:14

145:5,6 147:20,20

151:9,11 152:7,21

158:16 159:20

163:8 164:21

165:6,14,15,16

167:17,18 168:12

169:20 178:13,14

179:7 184:19

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155:7 161:16

163:5 165:1

170:16 190:8

192:1 193:5

195:13,13 197:2

197:16 199:16

202:4 207:5 226:5

227:11 228:19

238:4 281:4

285:13 298:14

308:9,21

call 64:15 68:21

85:7,10 101:2

122:9 126:16

162:1,11 177:14

177:16 181:4

213:3 235:11

242:18 266:19

267:3 327:21

335:15 339:14

350:2 361:8 369:9

369:15,16 398:2

402:22

called 77:2 102:22

103:1 129:9 270:7

Callie 2:12 6:20

calling 64:17

177:14 308:18

329:2

canal 421:12

canned 290:17

335:15,17

capability 226:16

358:5

capable 70:5 192:9

capacity 216:22

217:1 358:20

Cappellino 2:3 6:4

6:5 33:12,13,14

35:17 45:19 46:1

46:2,3 73:1,2

99:11,12,13 116:6

131:22 132:1,2,7

132:13,16,19

141:6,7,8 149:22

150:1,2 160:1,2

264:9,10,11,16

333:8 365:2,3

366:9,10,12,15

404:10,11 406:4,8

414:8,11 415:5

capture 149:22

199:3 209:10

297:8 353:4

captured 255:20

297:11

captures 224:16

care 85:1 190:5

careful 238:19

266:20 282:2

305:8 399:7

carry 110:5,10

cartwheels 417:12

case 2:3 5:13,13

46:7 47:11,13

59:20,22,22 60:18

74:19,20,20 77:18

98:18 100:7

101:13,14,15,15

116:14 143:20,21

143:21 144:5,10

155:5,19 156:6,7

156:17 159:5

186:15 219:11,12

219:16 220:13,13

220:21 221:5,9,13

225:10 241:21,21

242:6,11 243:3,10

247:19 248:2

271:1,1,10 277:11

285:19 317:20

318:4,6,6 319:4

319:10 322:7,9

335:21 345:12

348:5,8 366:17,18

367:4 370:15

371:15 385:17,17

398:1

cases 42:10 48:19

119:7 129:11

188:5 191:12,13

191:13 377:2

408:16

casing 175:3

181:22 182:12

369:18

cast 182:1

casting 71:19 84:17

133:20

catalog 51:7 57:1

categorical 119:15

233:1

categorically

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categories 30:1

140:19 177:17

206:10 249:22

297:17 340:17

369:2 380:22

categorize 139:20

category 77:1,14

78:1 102:6 110:9

134:15 137:7

232:14 258:4

325:11 338:17

352:13 365:10,21

367:21 368:21

369:21 379:6

424:18

caucus 64:16,22

65:3 89:21 93:3

97:19 145:19

219:13 221:1,2

caught 181:7

cause 31:7,8

cavity 144:22

cell 11:1

census 380:13,15

381:21 382:19

398:13,17

center 205:18

206:2 421:13

centric 211:14

centrifugal 136:18

144:15 254:22

289:11 336:16

382:20

certain 24:21 28:5

38:14 62:14

110:18 149:1

188:9 206:19

250:21 297:4

346:22 362:2

363:12 399:13

certainly 26:3 33:7

50:9,17 69:9,10

200:19 203:17

256:3 287:16

288:7 290:11,13

298:17 306:1

317:2 325:2 341:7

344:2 346:5

390:12 397:20

certification 33:1,2

116:15,18,21

117:1,22 118:10

118:12 120:19

122:3,5 123:5,20

125:17 127:13,16

128:21 129:1,4

130:21 291:22

certified 117:15,20

123:16 124:3,13

124:16

certify 123:8

126:22

certifying 123:7

124:2

cetera 174:22

227:20,21 270:10

274:12 374:8

419:11

challenge 406:10

challenging 260:10

chance 17:5 47:12

143:14

chances 149:11

change 12:22 13:20
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Charles 2:3,6,11

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Charlie 6:4 31:22

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charts 293:19

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check 19:19 26:6

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checked 26:7

chemical 115:16

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chilled 341:20,21

chime 84:7 330:17

Chingos 1:15 7:15

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choice 46:18,21

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choose 24:11 43:22

46:8 162:1

chooses 56:7

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Chuck 5:11 7:10

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149:15 153:5

160:19 161:1

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175:14 177:20

179:9 180:20

182:5,13 188:1

190:1 192:5

193:11 196:8

204:17 211:13

218:10 230:2,3

233:4 235:5 239:6

240:14 242:14

245:8 246:11

258:8,9 269:16

301:15 354:7

360:16 367:17,18

369:5 373:1 375:8

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393:12 398:21

402:13,14 409:18

411:3 415:6

417:20

Chuck's 170:17

circulate 327:10

328:3 330:9

circulating 328:21

329:14,14,18

331:9 339:1

342:15,17

circulation 272:22

309:1,14,19

circulator 91:15

92:3 104:4,5

165:10 166:9

172:5 207:13

208:2 287:3

289:10 290:7,8

293:11 301:20

302:8 303:22

313:19 324:9

325:5,10 327:22

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337:18 343:13

344:9 346:4,14

348:1,5 352:4

circulator-specific

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circulators 91:13

146:20 147:4

155:14 163:13,19

165:7,12 166:12

170:2,10,15 172:2

172:13,15,16

175:7 199:18

200:10,22 222:17

235:18 252:3,12

271:17 272:11,17

274:5,15,22 283:4

287:5,19 288:3,18

289:13,15 294:7

294:10,16,22

295:7,16 296:15

303:17 305:3

306:17 307:3,4

311:2,14 316:10

318:17 320:18

329:9 330:2,4,14

333:13,16,22

334:9 335:2,6

339:17 340:17

341:10,13,18

343:10,19,19

344:5 346:2 355:5

355:6,8 356:14

400:13

circumscribed

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circumstance

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circumventing

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cite 310:21 344:2

citing 321:3

claim 245:14

clarification 12:18

26:12 27:16

102:15 105:8

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clarifications

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79:6 95:18 103:3

103:22 104:19

123:10 128:2

164:18 171:2

175:16,19,21

213:1,9 233:5

236:21 238:15

239:3 240:15

247:3 249:8 253:5

255:7 257:5 266:1

269:11 274:21

293:3 301:9 303:8

321:2 323:7 332:6

364:11 375:14

378:22 383:22

403:19 406:8

clarifying 36:12

63:3 117:10 178:5

224:1 229:10

246:9 280:7

clarity 58:9 83:19

86:14 164:4

221:12 257:1

class 57:5 58:1

216:21 389:6

393:9 408:9

409:11

classes 34:10 61:13

87:18 90:20 194:4

199:13 208:14

250:21 319:19

360:2,8 391:20

classically 162:11

classification 109:3

110:18 175:13

263:5

classifications

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classified 134:11

177:5 210:9

371:18

classify 151:6

371:18

clause 149:18

clean 23:1,10 57:20

59:17 61:3 63:7

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119:12 130:15

135:19 136:5,5
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clear 16:10 27:17

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clearer 265:2

clearly 154:14

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clever 352:20

clock 421:1

close 104:1 164:2

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335:15 383:1

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closed 331:15,16,19

332:2,14,19 333:1

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closely 105:3 309:7

339:10 405:14

closer 230:15

closest 390:17

closing 351:12

426:10 427:19

closure 39:19 422:6

clothes 363:19

cluster 177:2

coalition 145:19

coast 426:15,17

cobble 417:17

code 122:16

codes 31:1 117:13

120:9 298:3,4

426:18

coffee 220:3

COHEN 1:15

cohorts 354:13

coils 306:10

coincident 197:21

Coke 220:2

cold 7:20

collect 15:6 59:7

316:16 386:11,14

410:8 411:20

424:14

collected 273:12,18

274:6,13 380:4

386:21 408:7

414:17 418:4

collecting 96:20

280:17 411:18,19

collectively 41:20

color 97:17 273:14

colorful 8:7 144:4

column 281:17

305:19 379:3

380:3,9,12 381:4

382:3 385:6

388:18 392:15,17

392:22 409:8,12

414:12,13

columns 314:11

combination 32:11

41:2 51:2,3 54:7

combinations

287:12

combine 413:1

combined 44:21

47:14 236:7

273:11

come 24:22 37:10

38:8 48:2 78:12

78:15 89:22 93:11

95:5 101:10 145:9

181:1 281:8

288:19 315:1

325:16 347:17

388:19 393:3

398:11 407:2

416:8 424:9

comes 29:6 37:20

123:5 129:8 149:4

178:8 197:5,6

211:15 310:7

348:1 393:5

415:12,14

comfort 208:15

329:3

comfortable 26:9

72:2 171:21 209:1

209:1 221:4 243:2

257:21 424:16

comforts 329:6

coming 13:7 38:2

40:6 67:9 97:14

121:2 167:18

183:13 190:21

212:2 223:18

296:20 309:17

337:20 340:22

356:16 380:21

386:2

commence 200:16

comment 8:5 39:3

56:13 63:11 64:6

91:3 100:4 121:22

124:11 156:21

171:1 174:11

196:22 208:10

222:15 235:7

244:11 249:18

264:1 284:7

302:17 327:17

337:22 354:8

387:21 402:12

404:8 407:14

409:20 420:18

421:6

comments 8:3 10:7

10:8 14:3 16:11

19:6 20:4 40:2,9

89:22 92:19,22

98:14 99:22

105:18 106:5

140:9,11 148:5

156:20 185:4

188:22 198:22

245:10 275:7

284:7,8 315:12

411:4 421:3

427:19,19

Commerce 344:14

commercial 4:5

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61:4 73:3 81:7

166:13 306:7,7,10

306:17 308:20

309:2 328:1

339:22 341:17

342:6,10 345:3,13

346:16 411:18

412:9 413:17

COMMERCIAL...

1:3

Commission 230:8

commitment 200:9

committee 8:2

11:18 14:3 22:3

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361:14,16 397:19

common 183:2

189:3 205:13

223:5 241:8

322:17 326:22

commonly 327:20

331:6 379:8

communication

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communications

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community 302:21

351:9 354:4

compact 340:3

companies 16:19

63:1 340:19

353:18 387:19

company 2:7 5:3

28:11,22 351:20

353:12

comparable 381:2

383:11

comparative 54:17

compare 54:3,14

230:1 275:5 279:8

281:16 417:4

compared 54:21

111:16 134:10

201:12 235:1

313:21 320:7

compares 54:12

comparing 280:1

281:3

comparison 281:22

312:13

compelled 289:21

compete 62:15

competitive 131:18

135:8

complete 245:17

249:1 368:1

completed 292:14

completely 42:1

50:8 52:4 69:17

293:11 332:22

340:2 351:9

367:20 377:16

422:15

completing 293:6

294:1

completion 293:10

399:2

complexities

166:11

complexity 61:4

294:14 316:14

compliance 53:2

237:1 357:17

complicated
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conceptually

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concurrence 291:2

condensates 373:14

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condoning 269:19

conductor 348:21

conference 308:3

confident 125:6

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confrontations

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Congress 362:9

congressmen

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consensus 63:22

87:6 118:18

Conservation 2:4

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conservative

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consider 76:7,11

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considerable 18:7

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considerably

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considerations

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376:18,22 381:11

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considering 207:6

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365:19 369:1

considers 56:21

consistent 109:16

146:4 175:22

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consistently 207:12

constituents 248:10

constitutes 103:6

constrained 73:15

constructed 344:17

construction 49:16

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consult 64:21

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consultant 8:9

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236:19 241:15

382:21 384:14,17

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409:9 415:13,16

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consultants 44:8

48:21 242:2

consulted 141:14

consulting 2:12,15

49:17 50:11

consumer 69:1,7,8

114:7 354:1

consumption

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348:15

contemplate 83:4

content 20:1 21:1

315:9 325:19

contentious 273:1

context 188:3

207:1 232:15

288:14

continue 9:12

104:12 107:17

109:9 246:2 346:6

417:17

continued 350:10

continues 349:4

contractor 28:9,9

40:12,16 41:7

43:10 82:9,13

334:3 399:4

contractors 50:3

250:13

contribute 404:20

control 30:3,8,22

41:2 50:8,8 51:13

70:7 85:9,12

92:14,14 99:5

201:11 297:13,21

299:6 301:3,4

306:11 310:2

311:3 331:17

353:16,21,21

control-oriented

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controlled 330:6

controlling 70:5

85:12

controls 21:20

29:20 30:12,14,22

31:2,7,16,18 39:7

42:11 44:19 46:18

65:21 66:6,10

85:5,7,16 92:13

94:17 99:4,18

164:13 287:1

310:18 318:18

346:19 352:11,20

conundrum 39:11

convenience 249:4

convenient 10:4

93:6

conversation 20:17

21:2,3 112:13

252:5 320:9 412:8

convert 211:20

converted 211:21

convey 347:21

348:20

conveying 342:1

convince 262:6

cool 242:15

coolant 370:5

cooled 330:8

cooling 342:1

345:13,16

coordinate 213:22

copies 97:16

copy 8:6 93:8 107:2

core 44:13 371:6

Corporation 2:2,3

2:6,11 5:5,12 6:5

6:22

corporations 17:2

correct 10:13 95:3

110:6 127:20

128:1 144:10

152:14,15,20

153:15 158:9

160:21 161:9

174:11 199:11

220:12 221:5,11

239:2 242:1 253:9

255:8 257:9 263:9

263:21 268:5,9,16

268:18 276:12,13

276:14 278:9

290:21 312:7

313:16 316:9

321:21 322:4,7,8

354:18 381:16

386:12 391:9,9

401:11 405:18,19

406:6 410:20

corrected 258:19

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correcting 93:15

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cost-justifiable

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cost-prohibitive

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Council 2:4,15 5:8

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counsel 7:14,17

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Counsel's 6:11

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counterparts 291:5

counterpoint

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countries 250:6

country 62:12

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couple 11:12 14:5

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coupled 104:1

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335:15 339:19

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coupling 90:7

96:12,13

couplings 90:11

95:15 96:7

course 10:5 12:5

14:17,20 15:1,13

193:19

court 19:20

cover 8:14 23:9,12

27:12 56:2 61:14

69:6 77:17 89:11

105:5 110:8

112:19 119:5

130:18 140:1

162:7 217:8

229:15 314:11

327:14 423:14

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coverage 55:16

56:2,3 87:7,19

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183:15 193:21

216:20 229:12,14

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covered 3:16 8:15

8:16 20:5 21:5,8

21:13,17 23:4,19

23:22 24:9 31:3

31:12,17 34:4

36:15 37:9,21

38:2 42:19 55:19

58:7 73:10 75:20

77:9,13 78:16,22

79:2 86:10 87:5

87:10 100:5,10,13

100:15,20,21

101:4,18,18,22

102:2,5 104:14,15

106:3,13 120:21

122:7 134:15

158:10 169:15

179:21,22 223:10

257:19 265:14

268:7 293:22

344:22 360:2

421:22

covering 52:12

55:22 58:20 77:9

77:16 116:4 222:3

262:2

covers 24:1 37:15

53:20 65:18

168:14 214:18

CP1 335:14

CP2 338:17

CP3 339:14

crack 372:20

craft 241:16

crazy 390:10

create 193:22

241:17 352:19

356:11 378:17

created 129:2

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190:13 294:15

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criteria 216:7

219:4 226:11,17

228:4 238:10

critical 90:20

crop 421:10,15

crops 202:3

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crossed 57:13

158:14

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110:4,5 177:7,9

251:13 364:18

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crowd 142:21

cue 364:4 421:4

424:2

curiosity 276:7

curious 65:22

111:9,11,17,20

147:13 255:18

346:15,17,21

current 39:17

currently 275:16

290:7,16

curve 126:15 149:3

211:5 212:12,13

212:16 215:4,11

215:17 296:12

304:6

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customer 46:7,11

46:17,21 47:7,12

48:17 278:22

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123:19 382:1,14

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159:15 195:4

203:22 204:2,14

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420:20 421:22

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189:9 191:21

199:12 351:7

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21:5,9,12 22:1,16

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33:19,20 34:21

36:11 37:18 38:3

38:22 39:12,17

52:1,10 56:2,5,17

57:13 58:2,10

60:3,10 61:17,18

63:16 64:1,7,9

65:15 71:21 72:9

73:9,14,20 74:11

78:14,16 79:1,22

80:2,9,12 87:1

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94:20,21 99:14

100:12 102:1,10

102:18 103:5,8

104:7,19 106:3,13

109:13 117:22

118:5 119:20

120:20 121:5

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158:10 173:19

181:5 186:17

222:6 223:7 231:4

233:3 234:10,15

236:15 239:16

241:13 242:19

247:8 259:22

263:17 269:13

270:6 271:3 272:1

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definitions 87:2,6

87:10,15 88:6,21

88:22 92:19 98:15

99:22 109:20

133:2,11 138:6

139:12,19 140:3

141:15,16 143:15

150:17 158:7

231:6 244:15

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248:8 249:2 250:2

272:4 367:22

422:4 423:3

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degree 137:21

196:17 332:19

degrees 332:10

delay 207:9

delayed 207:16

delete 94:6 98:6

257:16

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deleting 97:8

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deliberate 108:10

delta 297:14,14

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delusions 209:5,13

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depending 45:10

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115:8,9 119:13

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165:3 168:21

169:14 192:12,19

224:6 226:17

228:4 230:21

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239:18 270:14,17

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designing 334:1

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detail 25:19 44:16

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83:15,18 85:22

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110:16 111:6

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166:15 172:2,11

198:8 207:22

221:19 223:4

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241:11,16 242:10

244:2 245:3

249:13 254:16

268:13 281:12

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373:3 375:6,16,18

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68:7 73:8 87:3,7

87:11 137:15

288:5 426:1

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dispersed 329:21

displacement

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146:10 259:3

disregard 106:5

disrupt 64:17

disseminated 53:5

distinction 99:18

321:13

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distribute 330:10

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28:7,11,19,22

32:18 39:9 40:22

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distributorships

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28:13 29:4 31:1,9

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204:14 205:3

207:21 214:11

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284:16 291:19

292:2 298:15

313:9 317:2

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172:18 173:6

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348:10,10 349:9

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268:13 272:19

275:22 278:13

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283:11 284:2

299:18 317:8

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36:20 45:16 46:12

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52:17 53:18 54:4

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115:10,12 120:13

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81:11

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37:15,19 38:3

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21:19 50:18 51:11

65:21 66:6,9

87:18 88:13,13,14

88:16,18 90:7,8

94:20 95:20 96:8

97:4 98:21 99:17

288:6 292:3

378:16 393:9

408:9 414:3

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260:13 356:10

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336:7

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292:19 295:10

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290:12 295:5

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319:4 322:1

323:18 342:8

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380:13 382:19,21

383:12,17 384:18

393:11 408:6

409:3 411:13

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276:19 318:7

381:20 388:14

389:2,5,11 393:7

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terawatts 304:13

312:12 314:20

315:3 317:11,11

416:9

term 33:20 34:1,6

34:16,21 35:12

36:1 52:1 60:2

72:12 83:21 84:10

95:6 115:16 160:9

215:12 257:6

327:22 354:3

419:17

terminologies

148:19

terms 12:11 25:6

29:12,20 30:9,9

31:5 39:11 50:2

57:22 58:7,12,16

59:9,13 101:11

111:18,20 129:7

150:12 194:7

247:6 264:18

273:1 278:19

281:22 283:13

293:14 306:20

346:15,18 363:10

363:21

test 9:10,12 54:2

91:14,19 92:1,6

149:12 203:9

216:4,9,14,22

229:14 237:18

285:14,19 286:4

286:21 287:3,4,18

288:1,2,4,12,20

289:4,7,10,11

290:7,12,15 291:3

291:20,21 292:2,3

292:13 293:4,11

293:15,22 294:15

295:4,10,11 296:3

297:1 298:21

299:3,12 316:6,17

356:4 359:14

423:10,17,18

425:1,6,6,19

tested 229:21

231:15,16 287:7

287:12 292:21

tested-at 231:18

testing 9:10 28:17

33:2 53:4 54:6

120:3 125:17

231:13 290:17

295:12 355:22

361:10 423:17,17

425:8,22

text 141:9,13

thank 13:12,19,22

18:10 19:7 26:11

31:10,21 36:12

38:18,20 40:5

49:14 63:12 74:18

87:13 91:9 92:17

98:3 101:13

103:20 104:16

106:6 115:5

123:12 124:9,20

127:8 142:12

147:6 149:15

152:9,21 153:5

156:3 159:17

165:15 166:4,4

179:8 190:1 213:5

221:14 229:18,19

255:13 263:11

264:8 276:10

279:18 280:9

283:11 285:22

319:7 338:14

371:20,21 376:5

384:5,8 411:3

415:5 426:5,9

thanks 7:19 19:5

91:18 102:14

127:6 159:20

179:8 185:3

236:17 243:5

311:8 424:5

427:18

theme 181:6

theoretically

127:17 287:2

theory 95:5 326:20

thermal 138:21

341:8 345:6

thermostat 330:7

332:1

thermostatic

346:19

thermostats 346:20

they'd 83:11

145:21 175:8

309:22 357:17

thing 9:21 12:13

13:17 26:18 39:16

41:19 43:12 52:20

63:9 64:13 93:10

93:18 113:6

114:13 119:14

121:20 125:22

134:16 136:21

150:14 154:10

168:15 190:22

191:3 201:17

203:20 209:14

216:13 217:13

228:17 230:4

243:9 246:10

253:20 256:7

267:8 302:10

306:5,18 307:6

319:22 334:12

347:20,21 352:15

353:11 356:1

362:14 363:17

376:15 377:12

387:8,20 395:11

412:15 413:21

414:1 419:8

423:13,14 425:21

426:10

things 8:21 13:6,10

15:4,19,21 16:7

22:13 25:22 26:21

29:2 34:12,15

42:22 43:6 44:9

48:7 52:5,13 53:6

53:12,21 54:7

56:1 59:2 61:8

69:15,22 70:12

74:21 76:5 78:15

81:8 83:17,20

85:6,17 89:3

90:10 92:8 97:5

103:6 105:1 108:7

108:8,11 115:8,10

118:20 119:6

125:20 131:1,11

131:14 133:9

135:11 136:6

138:11 163:17,21

170:4 173:1,8

177:4 179:12

188:20 192:20

202:5 204:1

206:19 208:20

209:6 229:1

233:13 238:22

243:20 244:19

245:2,4 252:10

254:20 257:8

259:14 261:17

266:4 272:11,21

274:1 275:2,14

282:11 284:16

285:5 287:9

296:10,22 297:1,4

305:2,6,16 307:9

309:5 312:3,10,18

316:20 317:1

330:20 331:1

334:22 336:21

345:21 352:19,20

353:2 354:10

359:12 363:8

378:13 379:13

385:12 387:19

390:11 395:8

398:6 419:15

421:5 424:16

425:12 426:4

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13:15 15:16 16:14

16:16,20 17:5,16
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138:13 139:10,12

140:3,10,11 146:1

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154:2,5,20 155:2

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165:2 166:19

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174:8 175:12,16

176:4 179:19,21

180:19,21 181:20

183:19 185:16

186:18,20 188:2

188:21 189:1,14

190:4,12,15,19,22

191:4 193:14

194:12 197:7,8

200:7 201:2

202:11 203:20

204:7,9,20 205:1

205:12 207:6,7,15

207:22 208:14

209:20 213:9,21

214:11,17,18

217:18 218:9,21

222:2,7,10,16,21

224:10,16,20

225:3,7,11,14

227:12,13,17,21

228:19 236:8

237:6,9 243:7,8

249:13 251:21

252:1 253:15,20

256:6,20 257:16

261:15,19,20,22

262:9,20,22 263:8

265:2 266:14

267:1,17,20

269:21 271:18

272:14 273:8

274:14 277:18

279:7 284:12,15

286:2 288:11

289:12 292:9

293:5 294:9,12,16

295:9 298:17

299:4,10 300:8,12

301:10 302:4

306:15 307:6,10

308:6,10 309:9

313:9,12 315:1,5

315:19 321:8,10

321:16 322:14,16

322:19 323:18

325:13 327:6

333:5 334:15

338:2 342:7

343:14 344:1,14

346:5 347:16

348:12,17,19,20

349:3,7,10 350:3

350:15,16 351:16

354:9,10 356:16

360:5,17 361:13

361:20 363:12

364:9,20 368:6,13

370:2,11,13

375:10 378:9

379:7,9,10 383:14

383:15 385:5

386:9 387:13

388:13 389:22

390:22 391:10

392:6,10,12 395:3

396:7,9 405:6

409:2 410:14,15

410:22 413:10,21

414:8 415:8

418:12 421:19

422:14,18 427:8

thinking 45:22

58:19 69:21 76:4

76:14 85:19 88:21

90:4 103:11,11

112:13 115:11

134:1 136:22

138:18 203:7

219:4 220:11

298:10 313:5

317:2 395:13

thinks 15:10

third 257:21

339:13

thirties 328:14

thirty 77:3

Thompson 2:14 7:4

7:4

thought 29:13

80:22 85:10 86:7

115:5 126:9

133:15,15 138:16

155:1 159:4

175:17 212:21

223:4 239:1

253:21 269:3,9

271:15 284:7

285:17 299:5,5

320:15 321:22

350:22 362:15

370:17 380:6

389:13 391:4,11

393:8

thoughts 57:19

105:9,11 121:12

121:14 143:11

thousand 226:15

thousands 308:16

threat 183:12

three 45:8 54:7

89:14 126:10

193:13 227:20

248:2 278:5

302:20 327:13

331:10 335:7

338:6 340:17

364:10 378:5

390:18 400:14

402:7 421:15

three-phase 307:14

three-quarters

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threw 21:14 375:16

400:4

throttle 54:21

throw 65:8 210:14

262:22 305:1

390:21 392:13

throwing 215:7

320:8 380:16

thrown 235:16

317:9

thumb 323:16

Thursday 1:7 4:6

tie 216:14,15

tied 224:22

tiering 362:21,22

tighten 245:5

401:14

till 65:3 108:21

219:20 421:16

time 10:4,10 11:13

17:19 26:5,9,17

37:5 44:6 76:6

80:20 81:20

119:21 159:12,15

176:11 180:21

196:18 199:8,22

200:3,15 205:2

230:22 234:8

244:17 249:15

272:7 288:19

289:8 294:7 297:9

306:13 310:10

317:4 343:4

345:17 350:22

357:20 358:6,8,20

359:4,7,10 363:21

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426:13

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425:19

time-related 207:9

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43:8 71:2 82:6

109:15 166:10

230:4 309:21

318:22 344:9

391:11 427:9

timing 261:13

tip 192:13

today 4:6 8:14 9:4

10:5,6,17 14:14

15:2,14 17:12

47:2,16 55:7 57:9

58:12 62:13 64:7

83:12 91:21 158:2

223:5 246:7

249:12 269:15

272:6 287:5 295:8

321:16 332:10

353:16 423:14

424:12

told 18:14 291:11

371:15 389:12

Tom 2:4 5:21 36:5

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tool 370:4

top 100:4,12

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total 196:11 318:11

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totally 196:7

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275:18 391:2

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touched 14:8 17:9

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tough 217:13 250:6

tougher 334:20

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tower 374:1

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traditional 346:3

train 44:14

transaction 73:3

transcript 4:14

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transcripts 19:9,15

transfer 95:12

transferred 182:3

transferring 95:19

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transfers 95:14

translates 81:9

treat 296:13

treated 137:20

166:9

tremendous 312:5

312:17

tricky 69:16

tried 250:7 275:4

303:13 344:2

351:10 356:18

380:2 395:10

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trouble 101:16

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167:7 289:6 345:2

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truth 18:14 185:2

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61:16 88:11

106:16 141:22

149:18 153:6

166:15 170:1

174:19 201:6

222:3 242:8 254:1

260:22 269:22

271:10 274:10

275:7 280:18

316:1 319:18

320:5,18 322:20

322:22 324:9

347:17 351:9

353:18 362:9

363:1 390:6

398:22 399:9

402:15 424:9

trying 12:6 13:2

16:5 20:13,22

22:15 38:6,9 42:6

44:6 48:14 54:8

60:9 61:4 67:1

70:19 71:11 82:22

107:8 112:18

130:18 133:6

139:20,22 149:21

154:6 165:11

171:9 175:11,16

175:18,19 176:5

179:3,13 184:9,21

189:1 191:5,16

197:10 199:5

204:19 206:9,20

214:16 215:21

222:11 223:15

225:3,8 232:9

234:4,4,5 236:8

236:12 243:21

244:22 247:10

248:4 261:15

263:3,7 265:8

266:5,8 267:5,12

274:1 281:4 297:7

303:7 309:17

310:13 315:22

350:6 355:12

375:8,9 384:1

396:3 398:11

399:9 403:2 410:3

411:20 412:7,9

415:9,9 417:13

420:5 426:13

tubes 45:17

Tuesday 243:13

tuning 308:12

turbine 89:8

173:20 194:20

195:5 262:14,17

263:14 368:21

370:7 377:14

turbines 199:1

377:4,6

turn 11:1 70:4

310:9 327:7

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turning 4:19 192:4

turns 35:1 79:2

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twelve 226:15

Twenty 123:22

twice 339:22

two 18:16 33:14

46:5 60:7 74:21

89:14 102:20

107:15 127:10

128:11 133:18

141:16 143:3

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156:8,11 157:2,9

168:13 205:1

218:7 220:17

231:13 237:3

252:4 263:15

272:5 284:9

285:20 297:6

311:2 326:22

341:4 342:21

354:10,17 355:16

359:1,4 360:18

361:2 362:19

364:18 372:6

373:20 383:7

394:6 403:10

406:22 408:8,20

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423:21 424:8

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two-day 8:22

two-tenths 277:11

tying 219:4

type 12:14 43:4,4

45:18 60:15 77:12

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109:12 137:22

162:14 171:10

224:8,12 227:6

236:11 239:21

247:13 265:1

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337:7,12 338:15

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344:18 352:13

361:2 362:6,13

368:19 369:4

372:16 374:6

382:17 385:19,21

395:11 399:2

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35:5 42:12 59:8

77:21 87:18 90:15

92:3 102:11 108:9

112:15 113:1

161:20 224:5

225:6 228:17

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266:7 267:7,7,17

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typical 147:17

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195:15 197:22

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typing 164:16

U

U.S 1:1 62:13,20

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211:14 242:1

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298:4 299:2 303:5

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344:5,9,13,22

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226:20 229:11

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275:12 276:21

281:10 300:1

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upper 328:19

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119:12,16 121:20

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377:8 381:3 399:2

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411:12 413:22

414:4 420:21

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useful 15:8 70:14

86:8 96:8 155:1

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272:15 274:3

280:12 284:8

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192:20 195:20

231:12 347:22

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utilities 2:5 5:1

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V

validate 17:15 18:1

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variables 290:18

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variation 236:5

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volume 187:19

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386:11 399:15

volumes 197:14
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178:9,10 263:16

VSOs 264:4

VT-S 173:15,17

176:9,19 177:15

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419:6

W

wait 172:4,5 286:14

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want 10:17 11:10

16:1,2,8 17:22

18:22 19:1 21:11

22:4 29:14 34:17

35:11 39:2 44:12

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61:11,16,18 64:9

64:17 70:15 71:12

72:1 74:6 76:1,11

76:12 78:4 81:12

83:3 90:17 97:15

98:11 99:9 100:6

101:2,3 105:5

106:7 107:16

109:11 110:8,13

110:18 114:13

119:19 123:15

125:1,10 126:2

129:1,22 133:10

133:15,22 134:22

137:11 140:16

141:21 145:22

147:2 149:17

153:8,9,20 157:20

161:21 162:12

167:15 168:2

169:1,22 170:9,11

175:9,10 178:4

183:15 185:2,17

186:20 193:20,22

198:6 201:1

204:21 205:1

208:15,21 209:11

210:18 211:13,20

214:20 218:10,14

219:2 221:21

222:3 223:9,12

228:2 235:16

236:9 237:14

240:10 242:17

243:12 244:19

245:18 247:2,20

249:10 252:16

253:13 257:10

258:17 259:1

260:22 263:14

264:11 265:17

267:17 268:20

269:6,14,20

272:20 273:2

280:14 294:18,21

295:18 299:5

302:17 311:12,15

312:2 314:11,17

316:22 323:3,7,22

324:1,22,22

326:21 328:8

332:12 340:9

354:7 356:11

367:15 368:15

372:1,8,20 373:6

375:19 376:17

416:14 421:2,4

426:8 427:9

wanted 11:10 13:5

15:17 30:15 43:22

55:8 61:2 65:8

77:6,21 133:9

134:5 151:2 156:3

166:21 190:19

198:21 220:14

276:11 317:9

321:2,13 323:1

329:8 332:6

342:11 344:2

347:19,21 381:2

420:18

wanting 250:1

291:8 293:6

357:10

wants 17:21 31:9,9

33:1 39:19 77:15

77:17 130:8,15

155:22 159:6

366:3 399:1

warm 307:20

washers 363:19

Washington 1:11

4:7 7:20 317:8

wasn't 18:3 78:1

103:10 172:12

215:11 255:16

waste 111:14 112:7

wastewater 114:4

114:14 132:9

136:2,3 137:9

139:21 259:2

265:12 266:3,20

wasting 310:10

water 2:10 6:7 22:5

22:9,13,22 23:1

23:10 57:20 59:14

59:17 60:4 61:3,7

63:8,8,19 66:16

78:10 96:22

111:12,14 112:6,8

116:10 119:12

130:16 135:13,20

135:20 136:5,5,11

136:16 137:1,5,18

137:19,19,20

138:12,19 139:7

139:17 146:16

153:11,12 163:10

163:22 164:8

178:20 181:21

182:8,8 183:2,6

183:21 188:8,14

189:2,17,19,20

197:6,17 198:5

222:11 232:16

239:15 250:20

254:21 255:17,19

256:7,10,11,22

257:2,6,7,17

258:1,2 262:19

264:12,19 265:9

265:14,21 266:2,7

266:15,16,17,19

267:3,7,13,15

268:3,15 269:4

270:5,5,7,14,15

270:17,21 271:3

272:1 287:18

288:3 293:4 301:7

304:20 309:1,14

309:19 310:6

311:2 327:4,5,9

327:10,10 328:4

328:14,17,17,18

329:2,15,15 330:9

331:9 336:1 341:4

341:5,9,20 348:19

348:21 349:6

355:5 374:17

378:3 383:14

394:19,22 398:6

398:17 401:2

418:11 420:18,19

420:21 421:16

water-lubricated

335:6

wattage 334:2

watts 337:1,15

338:10 343:10

354:18

way 9:18 13:10

19:11 24:16 25:8

25:17 27:20 31:22

32:5 37:7 38:13

41:17 44:1 47:16

50:19 53:16 55:2

56:9 57:8,8 62:14

64:21 69:20 70:11

70:14 80:11 88:20

88:21 89:11 93:22

101:14 108:16

114:12 120:4

122:18 135:20

142:19 151:18

160:10 164:4,7,18

167:5 168:8 170:7

174:2 182:18

188:3 198:15

204:8 205:10

206:16 211:12

215:2 218:14

222:21 226:12

229:3 232:19

238:13,16,16

250:3 262:5

263:11 265:16

269:20 296:1

302:7 308:11
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 476

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321:12 328:13

330:12,14,19,22

334:1,4,5 341:22

347:14,18 348:20

354:11 360:22

361:22 385:8

395:15,22 399:18

400:19 402:1

404:7 416:10

417:13

ways 40:13 54:5

65:13 103:18

292:5 322:19

399:11

we'll 8:10,18 9:1,5

9:6,8,9,11,12,12

9:15,20 10:3,21

15:14,20 18:19

89:21 92:7 106:16

108:14 110:11

120:22 140:14

142:9 143:4,15

149:18 156:10

172:15 208:1

209:6 219:21

246:8 251:20,22

258:1 285:20

292:18 315:8

328:8 334:20

367:7 377:8

397:20 401:10

407:17 411:12

413:3,5 418:12

422:6 423:3

424:22 427:11,22

we're 4:15 10:15

12:6 13:1 14:20

16:4,5,6 19:3,14

20:19,22 21:7

22:2,12,15,19

23:4 34:8,15 35:6

39:21 51:22 52:13

52:21 54:9 55:7

56:19 57:3,14

59:8 60:7,15

61:14 63:15,21

64:6,19 69:13

70:19 71:6,8,11

71:15,16 74:17

79:3,9,14,15 85:6

86:5,17,18 87:15

91:19 93:9 97:15

98:19,20 99:20

100:2 101:3,11,16

101:19,21 102:1,2

102:7,15 104:11

106:7 107:8

110:15,20 112:18

113:18,20 118:17

123:2 128:19

130:18,20 134:2

136:6 137:4 138:5

140:16,17 144:16

145:15 146:21

156:7,17 157:3

161:17 162:4

164:8 165:8,13,17

166:13 170:1

171:9 172:11

173:7 177:9 178:2

180:12 184:20

185:16 186:11

187:11 188:2,3

191:5,15 193:17

194:6 195:14

196:3,11 197:6,10

198:15 199:17

200:15 201:2,12

202:4,8 203:7

205:6,7,8 206:17

207:13 208:19

209:1,7,15 212:15

212:20 215:10

216:5 217:1,5,10

219:18 220:16

221:17 222:10,22

224:4,5 225:8

229:20 230:15,15

232:2 234:3

235:19 239:10

243:21 244:12,22

245:2 246:9 247:7

247:9,14 248:7

249:3,17 250:22

256:11 257:17

258:7 261:15

262:2,9 266:8,9

269:7,17 274:22

275:16 277:6,19

280:17 281:2

282:1 287:11

290:15,16 293:16

294:6 297:17

301:22 305:21

311:13,14,19

314:8,21 315:5,21

317:4 318:16,18

324:4 338:22

346:1 349:5 350:6

350:12 353:6

355:9,22 356:17

359:15 364:12,22

365:19 367:14

368:20,22 371:1

373:8 375:1,9

378:3 384:1

391:17 395:5,22

396:4,4 399:6,6

404:2 406:1

408:12 409:4

410:3 411:1,17,19

411:19 412:7

415:3 416:14

421:18 423:19

425:4,7,16 426:3

426:11

we've 14:16 15:5

18:4 25:1,4,16

39:19 51:17 52:21

63:18 70:20 71:6

72:12 73:7 83:10

87:11 89:22 91:4

93:19 97:12 98:13

105:10,15,16

106:12 110:20

113:18 129:2

137:8 139:11

140:7 142:7 146:9

150:3 164:18

165:3 168:5

179:21 184:10

194:10 201:8

203:18 204:1

206:6 207:17

208:17 226:22

227:18 235:15

236:14 244:18

254:19 265:10,11

266:15 272:5

274:6,13 286:21

287:1,2 305:8

312:13 315:11,20

316:3 325:3 342:2

342:7 344:21

348:2 362:3

364:14 366:11

368:9 371:18

375:11 380:14

386:9 395:8

404:11 405:7,22

421:8 422:18,22

424:11

wear 115:9 142:14

Web 4:12 11:3,3,4

20:8,9,10,15

142:12

weeds 138:18

week 18:15 243:15

290:10 308:2

397:3

weeks 159:14 243:8

243:17 302:10

396:22

weighs 74:2

weight 399:15

weighted 408:7

414:18 415:1,22

Weintraub 2:15

6:16,16 283:15,16

283:16 397:7,7

welcome 3:11 4:4,9

14:1 15:14 20:10

20:12 21:3 167:14

well-defined 219:5

wells 174:20 182:7

189:3

went 111:9 143:7,7

220:7,7 232:13

235:7,9 241:7

275:14 304:10,15

305:7,10,11

329:15 333:16

336:12 337:17

354:15 355:7

356:13,22 388:6

394:10,11 406:18

428:3

weren't 107:15

146:10 212:21

394:18 402:22

west 309:5 426:15

426:17

wet 83:22 91:16

103:12 104:4

275:16 335:5,12

335:14,18,21

336:20,22 338:3

339:11 340:21

343:9 350:17,20

352:6

whatever's 89:9

wheel 96:20

whetted 424:3

whispering 291:6

white 2:16,16,17

7:1,1,2,2,3,3

218:8

wholeheartedly

257:15

wholesale 295:19

Widder 2:17 6:18

6:18 216:2,3,3

217:17 219:2,8

286:19,20,20

288:22 289:3,3

291:18 295:13,14

wide 48:1,1 58:22

112:20 356:8

404:12

widely 311:5

Williams 2:18 6:14

6:14 21:6,7 23:2,3

31:11 61:6 87:21

87:21 88:9 94:5,9
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 477

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141:13 148:3,4

150:16,16 151:1

151:13 152:1,3,8

152:12,16 153:15

153:18,19 157:4

157:15,15,22

158:9 159:1,2,9

159:16 161:7,9

162:22 163:1

166:17,17 167:14

168:4,7 169:8,17

170:8,8 171:15,17

171:18 173:20

176:10,16,20

177:3 190:4

194:13,18 195:3,9

198:20,20 208:5

209:17 210:7,8,18

214:19,19 215:14

220:20 221:7,10

233:4,11,15,20

236:6,6,21 238:14

239:5 240:3

244:11 245:9

246:4,17 249:7

252:21,22 253:6,9

253:12 254:8

255:4,11 256:5,5

256:19 257:9

258:11,21 259:9

260:2,6,12 263:8

264:15 265:22

274:20 276:3,14

276:16,19 278:7,9

278:15 279:6,19

280:6,10 281:2,9

283:4,6 285:4

286:16 300:7

301:6 311:22

312:7,14 313:16

326:3,6 364:7

365:7 366:1 367:2

367:7 368:3,10,16

368:18 371:11,20

371:22 372:18

373:5 374:13

375:13 376:4,7,11

377:17,20 379:1,3

379:18,22 381:8

381:16 382:2,6,9

382:13,18 383:10

384:6,16,21 385:1

386:4,12,15 387:3

387:7,17 388:10

388:21 389:10,15

389:20 390:8,20

391:6,9,19 392:4

392:14,21 393:4

393:18 394:1,9,12

395:3,18 396:6,14

396:20 397:4,17

398:3,8,15 400:3

400:8 401:3,7

402:4,18 403:4,13

405:9,19,22 406:7

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410:7,20 411:9,17

412:6 413:2,15

414:6,14 415:14

415:20 416:4

417:2 418:2,19

420:2,10,15

willing 362:12

wind 155:13

window 135:21

wire 96:22 287:17

wise 204:8

wish 20:17 26:8

36:3 133:18

252:17 294:12

311:5 404:19

wishes 8:2 11:7

55:12 426:9

wonder 104:18

165:7

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27:9 30:11 74:21

122:4 203:5 222:4

241:14 259:6

346:13

word 22:4,8 34:3

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69:14 72:17 93:16

95:8 99:19 116:15

116:21 118:11

150:4 399:3,4

worded 124:14

wording 65:14

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words 91:6 102:19

118:12 141:9

174:7 202:16

232:2 253:16

263:15 265:17

282:12 293:6

351:2 368:7,7

wordsmith 213:16

wordsmithing

213:21

work 16:5 49:11

53:13 59:9 74:12

80:19 92:8 94:15

102:13 111:8

113:14 115:12

124:12 125:17

128:4 133:11

139:13,19 140:4

329:5 375:5

411:11,12 425:22

worked 387:19

working 1:3 4:6

13:1 14:3 56:6

60:7 61:16,21

63:19 72:8 109:17

120:4 140:2

154:17 158:12

199:10,11 241:12

248:19 273:21

274:9,16 293:5

343:4 351:21

353:13

works 24:16 25:9

38:13 47:16 84:4

worksheet 319:8

world 176:7 182:4

262:16 399:13

worldwide 174:22

182:14

worried 106:2

193:17 195:14

232:1 250:12

worries 390:8

worry 146:17 263:2

worrying 120:12

worth 20:1 306:1

wouldn't 38:7

67:21 68:1 76:12

80:22 82:1,6

104:7 105:5

122:19 136:12,14

136:15,18 145:16

152:3 162:7 165:7

175:5,8 187:4

225:6 251:4

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315:22

write 44:5 49:18

53:17 54:11 70:9

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writing 229:16

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359:12

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228:13 240:13

250:11 296:2

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wrong 18:8 22:12

67:8 87:22 199:11

231:2 316:9

340:12 390:2

wrote 167:11

230:11 239:2

240:9 269:20

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X 77:14 270:16

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144:13 164:6

184:4 198:11

211:3 212:12

214:5 215:10

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405:6 407:11

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Y 270:16

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year 77:7,8 196:15

196:16 205:3

278:6 280:5,6

281:15 291:6

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317:21 318:9,10

318:12 319:5

320:1 325:5,6

339:22 342:20

345:2 347:11

357:12 358:1

359:21 361:1

399:4 407:10,12

408:11 409:4,17

416:7 419:9

year-round 345:7

years 32:8 76:9

77:5 128:14 172:4

191:19 207:12

250:14 271:2

291:10 302:10

310:1 311:1

317:18 333:12

339:4 351:2

357:21,21 358:3

362:2,22 417:8

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252:19 254:9
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 478

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422:18 424:17

yes/maybe/no

12:11,15

Z

zero 239:20 275:19

275:22,22 276:1

406:12

zone 330:3,5,22

331:11,13,18

333:6,16,18,19

334:10 353:21

zoned 332:21

347:15

zones 331:10

341:19

zoning 330:1

333:17

0

0.05 320:1

0.1 362:1

0.18 320:2

0.28 305:17

0.285 277:14

281:10

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0.57 277:21 301:10

0.6 281:15

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1

1 147:1,15,17

277:16 279:2

282:22 283:2

284:3 300:6 314:3

338:2 375:3 383:2

389:22 393:21,21

406:20

1-stage 263:18

1,000 347:4 374:7

1,200 158:22

1,450 231:10,11

232:6

1,500 188:10 374:7

419:22 421:9

1,800 163:2,9

164:10 168:3,13

169:5 225:11,19

1,913 416:6

1,930 418:18

1.0 300:1 305:17

1.1 245:11 336:15

368:4 371:16

1.2 245:12 336:15

368:4

1.44 416:8

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1.7 275:11 277:22

301:11

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1:30 142:10 143:5

1:41 143:8

10 30:2,7 110:3

174:21 192:9

219:20 220:4

304:12 307:15

323:12,16 324:19

339:4 344:9 389:1

389:8 391:11,12

391:18 392:1

393:20 395:14

397:5,8 400:1,3

406:20,21 419:16

419:18

10-inch 182:21

206:11,17

10-stage 263:18

10,000 213:20

227:7 237:19

10:00 1:11

10:25 4:2

100 142:18 143:2

149:10,14 191:19

217:7 218:1

289:16 360:14

400:11

100,000 374:5

375:3

1000 1:11

101 122:6

103 149:13

11 139:16 154:15

165:9 166:2,19

172:12,20,21

173:1 175:22

178:12 179:12

180:9,12 184:21

201:9,17 202:8

210:3 238:13

271:6 281:19

319:21 323:14

354:21 355:5,11

361:20 381:6

11,000 128:14

11.6 317:20 318:11

11th 243:13

12 110:14 174:21

324:19

12-inch 206:11

12,000 238:6

12:30 8:19 142:7

12:30-ish 9:16

12:32 143:7

120 210:11 395:14

13 404:4,8

130 337:10

134 415:12,19

14 206:18 285:13

319:5 407:14

140 211:19 232:6,7

15 131:13 281:17

311:18,20 408:1,3

411:5 419:2

15-20 120:7

15-minute 219:20

150 126:19 131:13

210:16 211:14

16 413:14

165/24 239:12

18 411:1

19 29:13

1999 342:17

2

2 10:3 98:15 156:8

156:21 157:5

158:17 159:3,22

161:17 162:5,7,8

162:11,13,16,20

164:1 167:1 168:9

168:12,19 169:14

170:18,19 171:7

171:12,19 191:11

192:2,15,20 199:3

207:12 224:7,22

225:12,16,16

226:1,6 228:14

231:1 237:7,12,13

238:11 239:13

252:2 275:15

298:8 307:21

314:18 317:16

338:2 344:15

391:4 393:21,22

395:1

2-inch 189:5

2,000 188:10

346:22 421:9

2,160 276:22

277:22 300:4,17

301:12,18 302:14

306:5 417:22

418:20

2,188 418:18

2,250 303:18 304:4

2,280 383:7

2,300 300:20

2,500 48:4 331:7

343:10 354:18

2,900 163:15

231:10 232:6

239:19 240:19

241:2

2.4 323:10

2.83 323:10

2:45 9:19

2:49 220:7

20 3:16 123:4,9,16

123:22 124:6,13

124:14,18 126:19

127:14,18 128:4

128:21 131:5,11

333:22 379:9,10

379:11

20-30 81:7

20-inch 182:19

200 48:6,8,19 49:13

149:5 152:8,13

188:18 206:18

211:4,7 212:16

217:10 218:3

355:4 394:22

200,000 374:5

2005 342:20

201 211:15

2012 230:9

2013 343:2

2014 1:8 4:7

2015 363:20

2018 363:20

203 3:18

2035 319:4

22nd 158:21

397:10

23rd 158:20

24 197:22 419:7,19

24/7 119:20 311:3

421:16

240 337:1,14,15

338:10

25 48:5 167:13

179:22 404:15,15

25-30 313:19

250 148:16 217:7

218:1

25th 331:8

26.612 239:11

3

3 9:19,20 20:8 32:8

39:1 76:9 77:5

105:16 159:13

172:4 175:14

186:1,2 190:12

194:14 195:2

196:14 197:20

219:20 275:22

283:21 317:17

337:17 338:5

340:13,14 344:16

404:15 406:20,20

406:21 419:9
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 479

3-inch 174:15,16

175:1,5,8 178:10

179:6 183:13,22

184:5,8,18 185:9

186:16 187:9,15

187:20 189:4

190:6 191:2,12

192:4 193:13

213:18 214:12,14

3,000 128:13 418:7

3,200 163:16

3,600 163:2,10

164:10 168:3,13

225:11,19 238:1

3.38 323:11

3:06 220:8

3:30 9:2

30 1:8 4:6 172:6

314:5 317:18

333:22 342:9

300,000 374:5

4

4 3:11 87:20 92:13

105:17 156:21

157:5 158:18

159:3,13,22

161:18 162:5,7,8

162:11,13,16,20

164:2 168:9,13,19

169:14 170:18,20

171:12,19 174:4,9

174:11,21 175:17

178:8,10 181:12

183:1,11 186:3

187:21 188:16

189:2,12 190:11

191:11,17 194:14

195:1,5 196:15

197:8,20 224:7

225:1,12,16,17

226:1,6 228:14

231:1 237:7,13,13

238:11 239:17

240:6 243:16

395:1 419:6

4-6 182:1

4-inch 175:2,3,13

178:21 179:1

184:10

4,000 22:16 231:18

306:12 347:3

40 303:1 314:19

317:10,11,11,17

319:2 333:22

337:1 338:9

40,000 111:11

40.6 293:8 425:5

400 48:4

425 3:20

45-50 367:13

459 179:22 211:17

232:8

5

5 3:14 12:10 77:5

108:14 153:3

186:2 190:12

243:16 252:18

260:2 314:3 351:2

351:11 357:20,21

404:15 421:4

422:8 426:16

5-minute 367:11

50 191:19 278:2

384:20 409:6

500 126:18 346:22

406:12

547 230:9 233:6

236:22 238:16

239:2

55 337:11

6

6 107:22 108:13,21

111:3,5 143:11,12

143:22 156:21

174:4,4,9,11,21

178:10 183:11,12

186:7,20 187:4

190:11,14 195:1

209:21 231:12

233:16 235:12

240:5 255:11,16

332:10 351:3

358:2

6-inch 174:3

175:18 178:8,21

179:1 181:12

185:5,17 188:17

189:3,12 191:10

191:17 194:15

195:5,15,20 196:3

197:8 199:1

213:14 239:18

419:6

6-inches 183:1

6-year 360:5

6:02 428:3

60 191:19 198:4

610 113:4 114:16

114:18 135:12

265:12

6291 80:12

65 32:15

7

7 107:22 108:14

111:3 143:12,16

323:12 351:3

7-year 351:11

7,000 187:10

300:21

7,300 300:9

7:15-ish 427:17

7:30-ish 427:16

70 342:8

700 19:22

74 409:6

7457 211:15

8

8 9:7 109:1 174:21

307:15 426:12,16

426:22 427:1,2,4

427:13 428:1

8-9 323:12

8,700 419:21

8,760 416:7

8E-089 1:11

9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

480

ASRAC Commercial/Industrial

Pumps Working Group Meeting

US DOE

01-30-14

Washington, DC