1



### Environmental Protection Agency 1

2

3

4

5


### Public Hearing on 6



### Proposed Clean Power Plan for 7


### Existing Power Plants 8

9

10

11



### 9:03 a.m. to 4:56 p.m. 12



### Wednesday, July 30, 2014 13

14



### Room A 15


### EPA Region 8 Building 16



### 1595 Wynkoop Street 17



### Denver, Colorado 80202 18

19

20

21

22

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### OPENING COMMENTS: 1


### SHAWN MCGRATH, Regional Administrator, 2


### Region 8, EPA 3

4



### EPA PANEL 1: 5



### JENNY NOONAN, Panel 1 Chair 6



### COLIN BOSWELL 7



### LAURA FARRIS 8

9



### EPA PANEL 2: 10



### AMANDA CURRY BROWN, Panel 2 Chair; 11


### EPA Office of Air Quality, Planning, 12



### and Standards, North Carolina 13



### DAVID RI SLEY, EPA Office of Atmospheric Programs 14


### RYAN SIMS, EPA Office of Atmospheric Programs 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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### C O N T E N T S 1



### MORNING SESSION 2



### PAGE 3



### TRINITY COFED, Coal miner 17 4



### MIKE DALPIAZ, Coal miner and international 5


### Vice president, United Mine Workers of 6



### Ame rica, Western United States 20 7


### ALBERT HARMON, Coal miner and president, 8



### Local 1307, United Mine Workers of 9



### America 26 10



### DAVE MAGGIO, Coal miner and President, 11



### Local 9958, United Mine Workers of 12



### America 30 13



### RICK MORAL, President, UMW A Local 1984 35 14



### JOHN FRIEDRICH, Climate Parents 40 15



### LEONARD BAILEY, Coal miner 46 16


### STUART SANDERSON, Colorado Mining Association 49 17



### JENNIFER HAMPTON 54 18



### DR. MARTI DOYLE, Professor 57 19



### COLIE KRAFT, Student 61 20



### ALEXANDER OSIF, Coal miner 66 21



### DIANE SCHRACK, Colorado resident 69 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### MORNING SESSION (continued) 3



### DON SHELLEY, Coal miner 74 4



### STEVEN DSCHAAK, Coal miner 77 5



### PHIL RUSSELL, Retired coal miner, 6


### Navajo Nation 80 7



### ROBERT CLARKE, Retired coal miner 84 8


### STEVE FEAGINS, Mobile equipment operator, 9



### President, UMW Local 1972 76 10



### ANNE EKELAD, Resident of Colorado 91 11



### JEREMY EPSTEIN, Harcourt Brown & Carey 95 12



### LISA HICKEY, Alpern Myers Stua rt 99 13



### MICHAEL HENDRYX, School of Public Health, 14


### Indiana University 104 15


### CHUCK NELSON, Retired miner, Ohio Valley 16



### Environmental Coalition 108 17



### MARSHALL JOHNSON, To'Nizhoni Ani, 18


### Navajo Nation 114 19


### JAMES DIETZ, Twin Valleys Pub lic 20



### Power District 117 21

22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### MORNING SESSION (continued) 3


### ROBIN BLAKEMAN, Ohio Valley 4



### Environmental Coalition 122 5



### PATRICIA POPPLE, Resident of Wisconsin 127 6



### K EN SCHMITT, Resident of Wisconsin 133 7



### HEATHER ANDERSEN, Resident of Wisconsin 137 8


### DR. CRISPIN PIERCE, University of 9



### Wisconsin, Eau Claire 141 10



### SUSAN RINGDAHL 146 11



### ROSALYNN BAUER 147 12



### ANNE KELLY COHAN, Resident of Colorado 150 13



### RICHARD ANDREWS, Boulder Innovative 14


### Technologies 153 15



### EVA NELIGH, Environment Colorado 158 16



### JEAN BASSETT 161 17



### TATIANA MAXWELL, Resident of Colorado 162 18


### JOHN C. BOLLINGER, ECE Engineering Services 166 19



### ROBERT CASTELLINO, P hotographer 170 20


### SHERRY OLSON, Atmospheric chemist 174 21



### JULIE BUCK, Resident of Colorado 176 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### MORNING SESSION (continued) 3



### GARRETT BEIGLE, Resident of Colorado 181 4



### THOMAS WALCH, Grand Valley Rural 5



### Power Lines 182 6



### SUZANN THOMAS, Resident of Colorado 186 7



### ROSS CUNNIFF, Resident of Colorado 191 8

9



### AFTERNOON SESSION 10



### PAGE 11



### RICK BLOTTER, Resident of Colorado 201 12



### STEVE TOMAC, Basin Electric Power 13



### C ooperative 206 14



### WILLIAM MIDCAP, Colorado Rural Electric 15



### Association 211 16



### RON NELSEN, Resident of Nevada 215 17



### WILL GREEN, Resident of Arizona 218 18


### CHRIS MENGES, City of Aspen 220 19



### PEGGY ROLLINS, Citizens for Clean Air 225 20



### TIMOTHY J. LINDAHL, Wheat Belt Public 21



### Power District 229 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### AFTERNOON SESSION (continued) 3


### JONATHAN SINGER, Representative, 4



### Colorado House District 11 234 5



### CAROL S TURMAN, Sturman Industries 238 6



### EDDIE STURMAN, Sturman Industries 242 7


### JESSICA LANGERMAN, Climate Exchange 245 8


### JACK KEGEL, Minnesota Municipal 9



### Utilities Association 250 10


### WILLIAM BLACK, Minnesota Municipal 11



### Utilities Association 254 12



### KATHLEEN WELLS, Resident of Colorado 259 13



### RICHARD KOETTING, International Brotherhood 14



### of Electrical Workers (IBEW) Local 667 263 15



### LONNIE RUSSELL, Moms Clean Air Force 267 16



### TIMEO ARCHULETA, IBEW Local 111 271 17



### BRAD TOLLERSON, Otter Ta il Power Company 274 18



### GUY RUNCO, IBEW Local 667 280 19


### SCOTT DENNING, Colorado State University 286 20


### SETH PORTNER, Efficiency First 291 21


### CHLOE FANDEL, Geologist 298 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### AFTERNOON SESSION (continued) 3



### STUART TRAVIS, Y

- W Electric Co

- op 302 4


### MACON COWLES, Attorney, Boulder City 5



### Council 308 6



### JEFFREY DAVIS, Student 314 7



### KATHERINE TOAN, Attorney 316 8



### RACHEL CARILLO, Resident of Colorado 321 9



### M ARY GAIL SULLIVAN, Northwestern Energy 325 10


### TYLER HAMMAN, Lignite Energy Council 329 11



### JOHN HORNER, Professor, Colorado College 335 12



### JOHN BACKLUND, Resident of Colorado 340 13



### MADDIE LIPS, Resident of Colorado 345 14



### MARY LOU CHURCH, Resident of C olorado 346 15



### PETER WOLF, Resident of Colorado 349 16



### CONNIE LUKE, Resident of Colorado 354 17



### DON SCRIMGEOUR, Resident of Colorado 357 18



### SHAKTI, Resident of Colorado 361 19



### JEFF YEN, Resident of Colorado 362 20

21

22

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### P R O C E E D I N G S 1



### MORNING SESSION 2


### MS. NOONAN: Good morning. My name is 3


### Jenny Noonan, and I am one of the chairs of 4


### today's public hearing. Thank you for coming 5



### today. 6


### Joining me today on the panel are Colin 7


### Boswell and Laura Farris, and our court reporter 8



### is Alex. We are her e today to listen to your 9



### comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 10


### pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 11



### of these rules of June 2, 2014. 12



### Power plants are the largest source of 13


### carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 14



### roughly one

- thir d of all the domestic greenhouse 15


### gas emissions. 16


### The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 17


### Power Plan for existing power plants. This 18


### proposal consists of two main parts: state

19


### specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 20


### power plants and guidelines to h elp states 21


### develop their plans for meeting the goals. This 22

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### proposal gives states flexibility in determining 1


### how to meet their goals. States will choose what 2


### goes into their plans, that show how they will 3



### achieve their needed reductions and meet their 4



### goa ls by 2030. 5


### The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 6



### address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 7


### and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 8


### set emission limits for two groups of power 9


### plants: those that make a physical or 10


### operational change tha t increases the plant's 11


### maximum achievable hourly rate of emissions, and 12



### those that replace components to such an extent 13



### that the new components exceed 50 percent of the 14


### capital costs of an entirely new comparable 15


### facility. If you would like information o r more 16


### details on these proposed rules, there are fact 17


### sheets near the registration desk. 18


### Today's hearing is one of four public 19


### hearings across the country this week on the two 20


### proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 21


### in each of the hearings, and I'd like to thank 22

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### you for coming out today and joining us and 1


### sharing your comments. 2


### We have a lot of people signed up to 3



### speak today, and we want to hear from all of you, 4


### so before we get started, I'd like to go through 5


### a few housekeeping items and grou nd rules that 6


### will help make today's hearing run smooth. 7


### First, make sure that you are checked in 8


### at the registration desk, even if you are not 9


### planning on speaking today. If you signed up to 10


### speak online or by phone and haven't told us that 11



### you're here, please step out to the registration 12



### desk and let the EPA staff there know you've 13



### arrived. 14


### Second, if you are a speaker, you were 15


### given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 16


### or Room B. This is Room A. Are you in the right 17


### room? If not, this is a go od time to switch. 18


### If you are not speaking this morning and 19


### the room is getting crowded

-- I'm not sure that 20


### that will be a problem today

-- we have two 21


### additional rooms set up where you can watch the 22

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### hearing on video. Our staff at the registration 1



### des k will direct you to one of those rooms. 2


### All right. Here's how the hearing will 3


### work today. I will call up speakers in pairs. 4


### When your name is called, please come to the 5



### table at the front of the room. When I call on 6



### you to speak, please state your na me and spell it 7


### for the court reporter. Your comments will be 8



### transcribed and included in the record of the 9



### comments on the proposed rule. 10


### Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 11


### comments. We have a light to help you know how 12


### much time you have left to speak. When light 13



### turns from green to yellow, that means you have 1 14


### minute remaining. When it turns red, that's a 15


### signal to wrap up your testimony. The light will 16



### flash red and beep when you have spoken for 5 17


### minutes, and it's time to stop. When you'v e 18


### finished speaking, please remain at the table 19


### until the person next to you has completed his or 20


### her testimony. 21


### We are here to listen to you today. 22

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### However, a panel member may ask you a question to 1


### clarify your comments. After everyone has 2



### completed s peaking, then I will call up the next 3


### pair of speakers, and so on. 4


### If you have brought a written copy of 5


### your testimony, please give it to the staff at 6


### the registration desk before you leave today. 7



### Because of the large number of people who 8



### have been int erested in this hearing, and to be 9


### fair to everyone, we're going to have to strictly 10



### enforce the 5

- minute limit. If you have 11


### additional comments you would like to make, you 12


### can submit them in writing. Let me assure you 13


### that EPA gives as much consideratio n to comments 14


### we receive in writing as we do to the comments we 15


### receive at a public hearing like this one. So, 16


### if you have more to say, please submit it. Your 17



### comments will be reviewed. 18


### There's still plenty of time to get 19



### written comments in and there a re comment cards 20


### available at the registration desk. Comments 21


### must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 22

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### put any written comments submitted today in the 1


### official docket for the proposed rule. 2


### Instructions for submitting written comments in 3



### other ways are available at the materials table 4


### near the registration desk. 5


### We're scheduled to go tonight until 8 6



### p.m. We'll take short breaks throughout the day, 7


### as needed. If you have any questions during the 8


### day, please see the staff at the registration 9



### desk an d someone will help you. 10


### Finally, I want to ask each of you to be 11



### respectful of everyone who speaks today. We have 12


### a wide variety of views in the audience, and we 13



### want to hear from all of you. So to do that, and 14


### to be fair to everyone, we ask that every one 15


### listen quietly. Even applause can slow things 16



### down, and we want to hear from everyone who has 17


### signed up to speak. 18


### Finally, please turn off your cell 19



### phones. 20


### Thank you again for taking the time to 21



### share your comments on EPA's proposed rule, and 22

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### I'd l ike to introduce the Regional Administrator 1


### for Region 8 in EPA, Shawn McGrath, for some 2


### welcoming comments. 3


### MR. MCGRATH: Good morning everyone. Can 4


### you hear me? Okay, there we go. Good morning, 5


### and thanks, everybody, for coming in. I'm the 6


### Regional Administrator here for EPA Region 8, and 7


### I just want to welcome you and thank you for 8


### coming in. This is one of four public hearings 9


### we're having across the country, beginning 10


### yesterday and it goes through today. 11


### I want to tell you how important it is 12


### that we're getting the feedback through this 13


### public hearing. This is something that we did 14



### before we even proposed the rule. We had 15


### listening sessions around the country, including 16



### one here in Denver, I think. And as a result of 17


### the input that we got fr om those listening 18


### sessions, it really shaped what we ultimately 19


### proposed, and now we're at this new phase in our 20



### outreach effort. We have the proposal out there, 21


### but it's just that. It's a proposal, and we're 22

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### soliciting the feedback from you all, from t he 1


### public, of what we got right, what you like, 2


### where there's opportunity for improvement, so 3


### that's really the conversation that we want to 4


### have with you all today and in the coming weeks, 5



### until October 16th, when we will close that 6


### public comment period. 7


### So, again, thanks to all of you for 8


### participating. We had a great conversation 9


### yesterday. People really engaged in a thoughtful 10



### way, and, I've got to say, a respectful way. I 11


### mean, we expect that there's going to be a large 12


### diversity of viewpoints a nd opinions on this, 13


### and, you know, that's something that we want to 14



### hear, and that's what makes our system of 15



### government such a good system of government. So 16



### I would ask all of you to be respectful of 17


### differences of opinion here. Just hear each 18



### other ou t and, as requested by Jenny, just be 19


### mindful that applause and other kinds of 20


### distractions like that are not really helpful to 21



### that process. 22

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### But, again, thanks for being here. I'll 1


### step aside and go to the back and listen to your 2



### comments. 3



### Thank you. 4



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you, Shawn. All 5


### right. Let's get started. The first two folks 6


### up are Trinity Cofed and Mike Dalpiaz, and the 7



### next two on deck are Elbert Harmon and David 8


### Maggio, and if Mr. Harmon and Mr. Maggio want to 9


### sit in the seats behind the spe akers, we can be 10



### ready for them. Thank you. 11


### And the microphones

-- whoever speaks 12


### first, you can push your microphone and it will 13


### be on, and don't get too close to it. And the 14


### second, when you're finished, push to turn it off 15



### and then the second person can turn theirs on. 16



### Okay. Thank you. 17


### MR. COFED: Hello. My name is Trinity 18



### Cofed. I am a coal miner at Westmoreland 19



### Kemmerer coal mine, and a member of the United 20



### Mine Workers of America, Local Union 1307. I 21


### have worked at the mine for 6 years and am 22

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### currently an oiler at the mine. I am pleased to 1


### be able to offer this testimony to this committee 2


### on what is a matter of great importance to myself 3


### and my coworkers and our families. 4


### The policy that the Environmental 5


### Protection Agency is about to impose on the 6


### mining industry will have a catastrophic impact 7


### not only on the mine where I work, but it will 8


### also have a ripple effect across the community 9


### where I live, and all without the slightest 10


### assurance that it will have any impact on climate 11



### change. 12



### F or the miners and their families, the 13


### EPA's decision to push this ill

- advised rule 14


### forward will destroy any chance we have of 15


### remaining self

- sufficient, middle

- class families. 16


### With the stroke of a pen and unrealistic hope of 17


### others in the world, we'll pla y follow the leader 18


### on the issue of climate change. We are 19


### destroying thousands of good

- paying industrial 20


### jobs that are left in this country. 21


### This is about my job. I didn't choose to 22

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### work in the coal industry because I had no other 1



### choice. I chose th is profession because it 2


### affords me the ability to live a stable and 3


### secure life. It pays the mortgage, feeds and 4


### clothes my family, provides medical benefits, and 5


### helps to sustain the community where I live. I 6


### am proud of what I do for a living and the 7


### positive impact that it has on the lives of those 8



### close to me and those who benefit from the coal 9


### that I help to mine. 10


### So now, just as we younger miners have 11



### become reliable, self

- sustaining members of the 12


### community, you have decided to end our careers, 13



### a nd while pursuing this agenda, you have offered 14


### nothing in return. There is no other employment 15


### options, no way to pay the bills, no future for 16


### my family and community. This dismantling of the 17


### coal industry will be accomplished without any 18



### guarantee that the Clean Power Plan will work. 19


### There is nothing to even indicate it will address 20


### the problem it is designed to fix. 21


### It may seem wise to the agency, and even 22

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### each of you, to roll the dice and hope that other 1


### nations will follow suit and apply the unilat eral 2



### approach to the global problem, but we should all 3


### face the reality that such events do not happen. 4


### While it may be easy for you to gamble with my 5


### job and the future of my family, I cannot take 6



### that risk. 7


### The EPA needs to rethink the problem on a 8



### glo bal scale, while still looking at the people 9


### it will devastate at home. The policy is not the 10


### solution we need. The cure you are proposing is 11


### certainly worse than the disease. 12



### Thank you. 13



### MR. DALPIAZ: First off, I'd like to 14



### thank the EPA for the opport unity, just for these 15


### public hearings throughout the country, and my 16


### name is Mike Dalpiaz. I reside in Helper, Utah. 17


### I've got actually two occupations. First off, 18


### I'm a coal miner. I worked in the underground 19


### coal mines in the early '70s to the mid '70 s, and 20



### I'm also a third

- generation coal miner. My 21


### grandparents both immigrated here from Italy. 22

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### They come to work here for the coals, and that 1


### they worked here. My father did. My uncles did. 2


### My brothers did. My brothers put themselves 3



### through college working in the coal mines. 4


### Again, so I have a family heritage and a 5



### tradition in the coal mines, and we have all done 6


### very, very well with the coal industry and the 7


### power industry. 8


### Secondly, my other job is I'm an 9



### International Vice President of the Uni ted Mine 10


### Workers of America. My region is the western 11



### United States. I take care of the coal mines. 12


### We have other affiliates that we also represent, 13


### but predominantly the coal mines here in the 14



### western United States. 15


### I'm going to be as brief as I pos sibly 16



### can with the 5 minutes. First and foremost, what 17


### the EPA, I believe you're totally wrong for the 18


### climate problems in this country, for blaming 19


### coal. I believe in your opening comments you 20



### said one

- third of the emissions problems was from 21



### coal. I t hink that's totally inaccurate. The 22

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### coal industry, the power industry has done leaps 1



### and bounds over the years to clean up the 2



### emissions in the coal

- fired power plants, and 3


### they've done a reasonably good job. Is there 4



### more than can be done and should be done? Yes, 5


### there is. Not with the devastation, as your 6


### proposal is, actually, to the entire coal 7


### industry. 8


### You know, a lot of conversion has already 9



### happened over the years, from coal to gas. 10



### Natural gas here has been cheap, as well, very, 11



### very cheap, because in this country we have 12


### allowed drilling beyond our wildest dreams to 13


### happen, which is producing a lot of natural gas, 14


### which lowers the price. Coal power plants 15


### converted to gas. Many did. Now that gas is 16


### going upward, coal power plants are conv erting 17


### back. It's all economics in the industry. 18


### Natural gas has its own filthy emissions, nobody 19



### seems to want to talk about. 20


### Also, the coal plants are closing. Many 21


### of the old plants are closing. They probably 22

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### should. Many old, old, old power plants are 1


### dirty. They don't have emission controls on 2


### them. Many of them are closing. Some of them 3



### are because of solar and wind. Solar and wind 4


### has nothing, and the plants that are closing has 5


### not helped our environment one bit, the old power 6



### plants. 7



### You know, so many is making this thing a 8


### political football, and I want to assure you that 9



### United Mine Workers have no interest whatsoever 10


### in making this some kind of a political football. 11


### You know, we have parties

-- some parties want 12


### this agenda. There are like three major parties. 13



### The other party says, "No, we need absolutely no 14


### regulations. The businesses can do theirselves," 15



### which is ridiculous. 16



### Then we have another party that don't 17


### care about anything, like I say, and the 18


### political agenda that this thing has come into is 19



### ridiculous. We need to talk about the coal 20


### industry and the emissions or non

- emissions, or 21


### the problems that we're having in this United 22

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### States. 1



### We need common sense rules instead of 2


### rules that is gutting at one thing and one thin g 3


### only, which is coal. You know, we have to 4


### compromise. We, our union know that we want a 5


### clean environment just like everybody else in 6


### this country. So we're not here saying that coal 7


### is perfect as it is. We would like to see and 8



### hear more discussion on clean coal technology. 9


### We keep hearing about that. Clear back in the 10


### '70s from President Jimmy Carter, that was talked 11



### about, clean coal technology. Nobody seems to 12


### want to bring that to the forefront. 13



### We can mine coal, we can clean coal, and 14



### we c an burn coal, and there's absolutely nothing 15


### whatsoever wrong with that. Again, it brings 16


### absolutely great jobs. Coal is getting the 17


### blame, and it's just not fair. Your rule is 18


### absolutely not fair. 19


### We've got a problem in this country with 20



### automobiles. You know, we have 300 to 400 21


### million automobiles driving around this country, 22

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### putting emissions in the air. Jet airplanes. 1


### Most people today have these little four

- wheelers 2


### that they go out in the wilderness with. Them 3



### are polluters worse than an autom obile. Lawn 4


### mowers. We're just focusing on coal and we're 5


### leaving everything else aside. We think that is 6


### absolutely wrong. It's unfair. 7



### You know, in the United States of 8


### America, we cannot fix this problem alone. 9


### That's what's happening. The United States wants 10


### to be the policeman, policeman for the entire 11


### world. We respect that position, but it can't 12


### happen. You have China, India building coal

13


### fired power plants every single day, who will not 14


### adhere to any regulations. You know, we have 15



### Kyoto Tr eaty, many of you know, the real treaty. 16


### That was a good start. But, again, we cannot 17


### police this thing by ourselves. 18



### We have rules in

-- we all just watched 19



### the soccer games. We have rules that govern the 20


### entire world, like referees. We have hockey 21



### g ames, Olympics, air traffic controller. We need 22

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### a rule like that for emissions. 1



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. 2


### Actually, I have a question for you. You had 3


### mentioned the emissions from coal plants being 4



### different than what was in the rule. We would be 5


### happy for any information you could have about 6


### the carbon emissions from power plants. We'd be 7



### happy

-- please submit that for the record. 8


### MR. DALPIAZ: Okay. We will submit that. 9



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you both very much. 10



### Our next two speakers are Al bert Harmon 11


### and Dave Maggio. 12



### MR. HARMON: I'm Albert Harmon. I thank 13


### you for the opportunity to address this panel. 14


### I'm a coal miner employed at Westmoreland 15


### Kemmerer Coal, in Kemmerer, Wyoming, and a member 16



### of the United Mine Workers of America. I'm a 17



### member of Local 1307, its Local President, and 18


### have been for 25 years. Our Local is 106 years 19


### old. It's been in the coal industry for a long 20


### time. We've negotiated contracts that has 21


### brought up these issues of what we can do to make 22

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### our coal better, wh at we can do to make it 1



### cleaner. Between the union and Westmoreland 2


### Coal, we've worked together to do this. We're 3


### still working to make it cleaner. It can be 4



### cleaner

-- I know this. The technology is out 5



### there. 6


### I've worked at this mine for 38 years. 7


### I'm current a shop laborer. Over that time, I've 8


### performed numerous jobs at this mine, including I 9


### was a greaser; I've been a truck driver; a tipple 10



### laborer, where I worked with the coal, to make 11



### sure that it was cleaner; a mechanic; and later 12



### on in life, I've resorted to being a bathhouse 13


### attendant and now a shop laborer. This industry 14


### has been good to me. We can still make it good. 15



### While the work can sometimes be difficult 16



### and dangerous, I'm fortunate to be near the end 17


### of my mining career, in pretty good health. As 18


### usually the case, I've had a few minor injuries 19


### during my years as a miner, but nothing that has 20


### limited my ability to work and provide for my 21


### family. The mining career I chose years ago 22

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### permitted me to purchase a home, raise a family, 1



### an d be a stable, hard

- working member of my 2


### community. After 38 years in this industry, it 3



### will soon be time for me to retire. 4


### Like most people, I've been looking 5


### forward to that day for a long time. This is 6


### finally to be my time

-- time to relax from the 7


### years of work and enjoy the precious moments with 8


### my family and friends, time to watch the 9


### grandchildren grow and become adults, and 10


### hopefully raise families, healthy families of 11


### their own, all while knowing the retirement 12



### benefits that I worked for, and s ee that they 13


### will be there and sustain me through the rest of 14


### my life. 15


### But the actions you are taking with this 16


### rule change, the years of hard work and sacrifice 17


### I have made to secure a pension and health care 18


### benefits for myself and brothers and sisters that 19


### I've negotiated contracts for, because of this 20


### risky policy, that appears more likely to cause 21


### great harm than to produce much good. There is 22

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### no indication that the problem the EPA is 1


### claiming to address by this action will result in 2


### any positive imp act for anyone. 3


### However, one thing is absolutely clear. 4


### This action will impact what I and other miners 5


### in the industry have worked for all our lives. 6


### It will destroy the pension and health care plans 7


### we have fought to establish and maintain since 8



### 194 6. To be clear, this unproven and ill

9


### conceived plan to eliminate coal

- fired power 10


### generation will take away the retirement security 11


### I have earned during my mining career. 12


### In closing, I do need to state, for the 13


### record, that while the EPA may feel an obl igation 14


### to push this reckless plan forward, it does not 15


### have the right to destroy what I've worked for my 16


### entire life. Neither this agency nor any other 17


### will be there to pick up the pieces of thousands 18


### of shattered lives, when I find myself and my 19



### fellow miners and our families are confronted 20


### with the reality that this rule has eliminated

-- 21


### our retirement security. This will be 22

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### devastating to our work force, to our areas. 1


### I'm from southwestern Wyoming. These 2


### mining industries make jobs for a lot of 3



### fam ilies, pay taxes, build these federal 4


### buildings, build families, buy groceries, do all 5


### the things that are needed. I ask you, think 6



### hard about what this is, because it means a lot 7


### of people's lives, that have worked a lot of 8



### years. We deserve what we've worked for, not to 9


### be destroyed by others, and I thank you for this 10


### opportunity to speak. 11



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 12


### MR. MAGGIO: Good morning. My name is 13


### Dave Maggio, last spelled M

- a

- g

- g

- i

- o. I'm a 14



### retired coal miner, a third

- generation coal 15



### miner. I'm also a Vietnam veteran. I served 2

- 16


### 1/2 years in Vietnam. I live in East Carbon, 17



### Utah, and I am a member of UMWA Local 9958. It's 18



### a retired Local and I'm President of the Local. 19



### I've worked 28 years underground for both U.S. 20


### Steel and Kaiser Steel. My Local has 132 21


### members. Eighty

- five percent of them are 22

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### veterans, and 100 percent of them are dependent 1


### on the pensions that they receive from the UMWA. 2


### I'd like to thank you for the opportunity 3


### to offer testimony on how the plan you've put 4


### together will impact the coal field communities 5


### across this country. I serve as a city 6


### councilman in my town, and have for over 16 7



### years. I've also served mayor pro tem, and I am 8


### fully informed on how much my town depends on 9



### coal. 10


### During this hearing, you have heard from 11


### people about the terrible consequences this 12


### proposed policy on miners on their families. The 13


### impact on all the individuals cannot be 14


### understated. However, the impact on their 15



### communities also needs to be talked about. The 16


### community where I live, th e community where many 17


### of us live, the immediate job loss for miners, 18


### equipment manufacturers, truckers, railroad 19


### workers, utility workers, electrical workers, 20


### vendors, and other related workers are just the 21


### beginning of the decline. Many of these coal 22

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### fi eld communities like mine rely on the income 1



### and the health care benefits that we've earned 2


### over working in the coal mines for generations. 3


### The loss of wages to workers and pension 4



### benefits to retired families will send shock 5



### waves through thousands of lo cal businesses and 6


### important public institutions. The elimination 7


### of health care benefits as a result of this plan 8


### will place a significant hardship on health care 9


### providers and people like myself who depend on 10



### it. It will also devastate doctors, clinics
, 11


### pharmacies, and community hospitals. The 12


### severity of the damage to the people who provide 13



### these services, and, therefore, the broader 14


### community, may not seem obvious at first, but 15


### they will be an inevitable result. 16


### It may not seem rational to some that a 17


### federal policy can have such a fundamental impact 18


### on a given town, but for those who cannot 19


### understand this, I would invite them to visit my 20


### community or any one of the communities and small 21



### coal

- mining camps throughout the coal fields. We 22

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### are unique i n many respects. We are fortunate to 1



### come from these small towns, where everyone knows 2



### everybody else. These are places where people 3


### actually do look out for their neighbors, and 4


### where generations of families live within walking 5



### distance of one another. They teach us the 6


### importance of family, friends, and community. 7


### Four generations of my family live on the 8



### same street, Denver Avenue. My home of 43 years 9


### with my wife, Shelley, and our two children is 10



### under 100 yards from my boyhood home, where my 11



### other lives now, as a widow. I was born and 12



### raised on Denver Avenue in East Carbon, Utah, and 13


### have spent 65 years there, four generations on 14


### the same street. My mother, myself, my wife, my 15



### son, my grandson, and my granddaughter, and soon 16



### to be my great

- grandd aughter in August, are all 17


### reliant on the coal industry to sustain our way 18


### of life, an industry that by nature of the 19


### product it provides, exists in the hollows and 20



### hills of rural America. 21



### These communities thrive because of the 22

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### men and women of our ind ustry and the coal we 1


### produce. They are fundamentally tied together. 2



### It should be apparent when you destroy one you do 3


### irreparable harm to the other. You kill our 4


### industry and we become the endangered species. 5



### These communities are homes to countless m en and 6



### women who fueled the Industrial Revolution, 7


### helped win two World Wars

-- my father was also a 8


### World War veteran, and my older brother, a miner, 9


### died from Agent Orange in Vietnam. And we 10


### continue to energize a power

- hungry nation, that 11



### now, without any assurance that what you are 12


### proposing will have any meaningful impact on the 13


### carbon emissions, you're willing to destroy our 14



### lives. 15


### Certainly we, as a nation, are smarter 16


### than this. Surely we not only see the problem 17


### but still have the ingenuity and expertise to use 18


### this nation's most abundant energy resource 19


### efficiently, and in so doing, lessen our 20


### dependency on foreign energy owned by people who 21


### hate and despise us. 22

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### I would also like to add that we are not 1



### anti

- environmental, but cannot believe tha t there 2


### is no way in an age where you can talk to a 3



### person halfway around the world on a cell phone, 4


### or post your entire day on Facebook, that we are 5


### not technically evolved enough to use coal in a 6



### clean, safe manner. 7


### I'd like to hit on one more subject h ere. 8


### MS. NOONAN: Sir, I'm sorry. We're past 9



### time. 10


### MR. MAGGIO: Okay. I appreciate your 11



### time. 12



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Up next we have 13



### John Friedrich and Rick Moral, and on deck we 14


### have Leonard Bailey and Stuart Sanderson. If 15


### you'd like to take the s eats behind the speaker's 16



### table. Okay. Do you want to start? Thank you. 17


### MR. MORAL: Good morning. My name is 18



### Rick Moral. I'm President of UMWA Local 1984 in 19


### Rangeley, Colorado. While I understand the EPA's 20


### motive in shutting down coal

- burning power plants 21


### in favor of cleaner methods of energy output in 22

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### the U.S., with the hope that this will encourage 1



### other countries to do the same, I do not believe 2


### that this option will be successful long

- term. 3



### First of all, there is no hard evidence 4



### to back up the claim that countries that are 5


### still relying heavily or primarily on the use of 6



### coal

- fired power plants will minimize, stop, or 7


### change their current methods simply because that 8


### is what's happening in the United States. These 9


### countries are going to continue to use the 10



### methods that work for them, regardless of the 11


### what the EPA mandates in this country. It's 12



### naïve to think that our influence on this 13


### particular matter will cause global change. If 14


### we wish to remain a world power and be a positive 15



### influence on other countries, then maybe we 16


### should consider being a leader in clean coal 17



### technology. 18


### Coal is a readily available, economical, 19


### and reliable energy source for many countries. 20


### We may choose to turn our attention to more 21


### expensive and less efficient sourc es, but other 22

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### countries won't, in which the environmental 1


### impact of our actions will be negligible, at 2



### best. 3


### Second and more important to myself and 4


### others in similar positions pertains to the loss 5



### of income that I and other will suffer if our 6



### mines are s hut down. This will, of course, 7


### affect myself and my family. However, the 8


### consequences will undoubtedly reach much further 9


### than that. If I lose my job and have no income, 10



### I'll have no resources to make purchases at local 11


### businesses that rely on the reg ular patronage of 12


### customers like myself. 13


### Our membership is very diverse. On the 14



### crew that I work on, we have a grandmother and we 15


### also have a young man that's 19 years old, going 16



### to be a father soon. If that grandmother loses 17


### her job, what happens to her pension? And the 18


### money she's saved for retirement will be worth 19


### much less when her electricity costs her four 20


### times more, and everything else she buys move up 21


### proportionately. And what effect will this have 22

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### on this unborn child that this young man is going 1


### to have? Will it grow up in a home where the 2


### parents have good incomes and are able to raise a 3



### child in a small town, and send that child to 4


### school, or will they end up in a big city where 5


### maybe they can get minimum wage jobs? 6



### In my town and other areas, coal mining 7


### is a family business. With so many individuals 8


### without jobs and so many entire families and 9


### community members unable to put money back into 10


### the market, the entire community will suffer. 11


### Ultimately, I believe that this decision 12



### will do much more harm than good, and I ask the 13


### EPA to consider this and think carefully about 14



### the disastrous results that could affect much 15


### more than just a few thousand jobs. This is a 16


### decision that will essentially change the 17


### economic dynamics of entire reg ions of our 18


### country in a massive and negative way. 19


### In a region where coal mining is 20


### prevalent and where coal mining jobs are numerous 21


### and widespread, closing down these mines will 22

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### have an extensive and very damaging effect that 1



### reaches much further than just coal miners and 2


### their families. Is it worth it to put this plan 3


### into action, based on a mere hope that maybe 4


### other countries will follow our example and ditch 5


### coal mining for windmills? There's no proof that 6


### they will change their system, and yet t he EPA is 7


### willing to ax thousands of jobs and put the 8


### economy of our nation at risk to pursue this 9


### unlikely wish. 10


### For the sake of our jobs, our 11



### communities, and our economics, this decision 12



### must be reconsidered. Modern coal

- burning plants 13



### are far clean er than they were a generation ago. 14



### Let's continue that trend. When other countries 15


### see that such technology is working for us, and 16


### may be available to them, then maybe they will 17



### follow our lead. In the end, I don't see the 18


### agency's proposed policy as a real solution. We 19



### will lose what we have worked for all of our 20


### lives, and our communities will struggle in 21


### poverty. How can the EPA call this a success 22

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### story? 1


### We need to find ways of putting more 2


### people back to work, in jobs that provide good 3



### pay and g ood benefits and long

- term career 4


### opportunities. It's my personal opinion that 5



### this so

- called war on coal has nothing to do with 6



### coal or the environment. It's economic war 7


### against America. Whose side is the EPA on? 8



### MR. FRIEDRICH: Hi. I'm John Friedric h 9


### with Climate Parents. We're working with parents 10



### and grandparents across the country to take 11


### action on clean energy and climate for the sake 12


### of our kids and grandkids. The world facing our 13


### children and grandchildren, if we stay at the 14



### current carbon co urse, will be increasingly 15


### chaotic and marked by extreme weather events such 16


### as the severe droughts, wildfires, and flooding 17



### that have recently ravaged Colorado. The stakes 18


### are high for our kids, including my 8

- year

- old 19


### daughter, Rosie. 20



### The National Cli mate Assessment states 21


### that climate change threatens human health and 22

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### well

- being in many ways. Certain people are 1


### especially vulnerable, especially children. 2


### Early action provides the largest health 3


### benefits. As threats increase, our ability to 4



### adapt to future changes may be limited. If we 5


### care about our kids and their kids, we absolutely 6


### must do everything we can to reverse the tide on 7


### climate change, and since the biggest climate 8


### change drivers in the U.S. are power plants, EPA 9



### must adopt and enact st rong limits on this carbon 10


### pollution, without delay. 11



### The health and well

- being of our children 12


### must be the top priority in setting new carbon 13


### pollution limits. Climate Parents strongly 14


### supports the Clean Power Plan as an important 15


### step in making a transi tion to clean, kid

- safe, 16



### climate

- safe energy. However, we want to see the 17


### proposed carbon pollution standards strengthened 18


### to adequately protect our kids from harm. Many 19


### states will be able to achieve even greater 20



### carbon reductions than called for in the Clean 21


### Power Plan because they are retiring dirty power 22

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### plants and moving to clean energy and energy

1


### efficiency must faster and at a greater scale 2


### than EPA has estimated. A strengthened standard 3


### with more ambitious carbon pollution reduction 4



### targets would take this progress into account as 5


### a base to be built upon. 6



### There are some that say we can't afford 7


### to move to a clean energy future. The reality is 8



### we can't afford not to. There is too much at 9


### stake. The life support systems of the Earth are 10



### strained . There are too many kids suffering from 11


### asthma and other pollution fuel diseases to 12


### perpetuate the same outdated policies. The days 13


### of getting a free pass to dump unlimited amounts 14


### of carbon pollution into the air, at the expense 15



### of our communities, our kids, and our future, 16



### must come to an end. 17


### There is tremendous opportunity in making 18


### a transformation to a clean energy economy. A 19


### large number of jobs will be created to make 20


### every school, home, and business in this country 21


### energy efficient and power ed by clean, home

- grown 22

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### sources of energy. Today's children are going to 1


### help make that better, healthier world a reality 2


### if we just give them a chance, and the Clean 3


### Power Plan is a very important step in that 4



### direction. 5


### Climate Parents is circulating a petition 6


### in support of the Clean Power Plan, which has 7


### already been signed by thousands of supporters 8


### here in Colorado and across the country, and I'd 9


### like to read, for the record, a sampling of the 10



### comments that we've received so far. 11


### Ann Mayberry in Steamboat Springs, 12


### Colorado, writes, "It is time to let go of older 13



### power

- generating technology so we can innovate 14


### and embrace power technologies for the future." 15


### Mary Coat [ph] in Gastonia, North Carolina, says, 16


### "Please think of the future of the whole p lanet, 17


### not just what's cheap and popular now. I don't 18


### want my grandkids to foot the bill for my 19



### excesses." 20


### Peggy Gray in Troy, Ohio, writes, "This 21


### is important to me because pollution affects my 22

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### health and that of my family and friends." John 1



### Clark of G ranite Falls, North Carolina, says, "I 2


### would not mind a small increase in my electric 3


### bill to pay for fresh air for my grandchildren 4



### and great

- grandchildren." Joyce Knarr [ph] of 5


### Tampa, Florida, says, "Money will not buy our 6


### grandchildren clean air to bre athe. Please act 7


### now to adopt aggressive, tougher rules to cut 8


### carbon pollution from power plants." 9


### Cedar Richard [ph] of Middletown, 10


### Pennsylvania, says, "As a civil engineering 11


### student, I believe it is extremely important to 12


### come up with cleaner and mor e sustainable designs 13


### within the energy sector. That comes by first 14


### creating new rules to regulate that sector." 15


### Edwin Hills [ph] of Athens, Pennsylvania, says, 16


### "We're nearing, at, or past the point of no 17



### return relative to carbon dioxide concentrations. 18



### Much can and must be done to slow and reverse the 19


### passing current policies of energy production 20



### now." 21


### Therese Brownfield of Larkspur, Colorado, 22

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### says, "It is scientifically feasible, 1


### economically reasonable, and morally responsible 2



### for the health of our nation and our planet that 3



### the EPA and we citizen enact the rule and others 4



### like it. Let's be smart for our future." G.P. 5


### Avery [ph] of Napa, California, says, "Not 6


### imposing stricter standards will only make the 7


### cost of power more expensive in the future , as we 8


### have to use more energy to compete with the 9


### effects of climate change. Stronger rules will 10


### lessen the impact." 11


### Wendy McKendrick of Westminster, 12


### Colorado, says, "Other countries, like Germany, 13


### Denmark, and Indonesia, are leading the way to 14


### incorpo rating cleaner energy technologies. Let's 15


### not get left behind." And Nancy Noloboff [ph] of 16


### St. Augustine, Florida, says, "I have a grandson 17


### whose life is just beginning. We need a 18


### sustainable future. So thank you for taking 19


### action to enact a strengthened Clean Power Plan 20


### for the sake of our kids and grandkids." And I'd 21


### like to hand over a file with the petition 22

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### signatures attached. 1



### Thank you. 2



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. You can 3


### hand that in at the registration desk. It will 4



### be part of the docket. A nd for anyone else who 5



### as additional comments or weren't able to 6


### complete their comments orally, please put your 7



### written comments into the record and we'll make 8


### sure that they get put into the official record 9


### for this proposal. Thank you. 10


### Okay. Mr. Baile y and Mr. Sanderson. And 11


### please remember to spell your names, your first 12



### and last names. 13


### MR. BAILEY: Good morning. 14



### MS. NOONAN: Press the button. Thank 15



### you. 16


### MR. BAILEY: Thank you. Good morning. 17


### My name is Leonard Bailey, B

- a

- i

- l

- e

- y, the last 18



### name . I live near Kayenta, Arizona. I'm a 19



### member of the United Mine Workers Local 1924, 20


### Kayenta Mine. I worked for Peabody Western Coal 21



### Company for 38 years. 22

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### Thank you for the opportunity to be here 1


### today to voice my concern regarding the policy 2



### the EPA ha s issued regarding emissions from coal

3


### fired power plants. I have attempted to 4


### understand exactly what the agency is trying to 5


### do, but, to be honest, there certainly seems to 6


### be some conflicting messages. You roll out the 7


### Clean Power Plan by stating that the goal is to 8


### reduce carbon dioxide emissions to 30 percent 9



### below the 2005 level. 10


### There is no mention in any of the 11



### information that I have looked at that states 12


### emissions are currently 13 percent below these 13


### levels. This is an important fact, but it would 14


### appear to your effort to sell this plan, it is 15


### completely left out, but it would appear, to your 16


### effort, to sell this plan if you conveniently 17


### left out the data. Don't you think at least it's 18


### worth mentioning there has been expensive 19



### measures taken to deal with the problem? 20


### The EPA takes great effort to explain how 21


### it is important for the United States to put this 22

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### rule into effect to other countries. You are 1


### referring to plan to build 1,200 coal

- fired power 2



### plants to meet the energy needs. In fac t, 3



### between China and India alone, there are four of 4


### these plants coming online every week. So you 5


### crush an industry here; it has grown everywhere 6


### else on the globe. You cannot be a leader if no 7


### one is following. 8


### It was not long ago that the EPA issued 9


### the Maximum Achievable Control Technology rule, 10



### or MACT. At that time, it was stated that MACT 11


### would reduce pollutants, including heavy metal 12



### from the smokestack and the boiler emissions. 13


### This would reduce incidents of asthma, emphysema, 14



### and other chron ic diseases. Now you make the 15



### same claim with the Clean Power Plan rule. 16


### Wasn't one rule enough to deal with those health 17



### issues? 18


### What I don’t understand is why the EPA 19



### chooses to cherry

- pick the facts instead of just 20


### telling the truth. It appears that when you look 21


### at the industry in this country, you have refused 22

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### to apply the technology that exists, while, at 1


### the same time, investing in research that will 2



### allow us to use our most critical natural 3


### resources. The EPA appears to have decided it's 4


### not jus t worth the effort. How will we keep this 5


### energy price low so homeowners and businesses can 6


### afford to keep the lights on when we dismantle 7


### the least expensive form of power generation we 8



### have? 9


### This rule will cost thousands of jobs. 10



### Jobs will be lost i n the coal fields. In support 11


### industry and in the manufacturing centers across 12


### this country, this will go somewhere, like steel 13


### shoes, clothing, and a host of other industries. 14


### Surely we are a better nation, as this, in the 15



### United States. 16



### Thank you. 17



### MS . NOONAN: Thank you. Sir, go ahead. 18



### Spell your name. 19


### MR. SANDERSON: My name is Stuart 20



### Sanderson. I'm the President of the Colorado 21


### Mining Association. On behalf of the 22

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### association, its more than 1,000 members, the 1



### more than 2,000 men and women who w ork at the 2


### mines in Colorado, and the 24,000 people 3


### throughout the state whose jobs depend upon coal 4


### mining and coal generation, I'm appearing here 5


### today to strongly oppose the EPA regulations. 6


### In addition to threatening to write our 7



### most affordable and r eliable electricity fuel out 8


### of the energy mix, these regulations will fall 9


### disproportionately hard on citizens and rate 10


### payers alike. 11


### In the coal industry in Colorado, the 12


### industry pays average wages and benefits in 13


### excess of $116,000 annually. Every single one of 14


### those jobs is at stake because of the EPA 15


### regulations. But equally as appalling, this 16


### regulation will produce nothing in the way of 17


### claimed benefits to the environment. According 18


### to any reasonable analysis, the rule's impact on 19



### the climate will be miniscule, about 1/20th of 1 20


### degree Fahrenheit change. I think only a 21


### Washington, D.C. bureaucracy could find these 22

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### benefits to be worthwhile. 1


### I will say what Colorado will get, and 2


### that is higher rates. Even President Obama has 3



### acknowledged t hat the rule will drive up utility 4


### bills and electric prices. Everyone will pay a 5


### price. A recent Harris Poll of nationwide 6



### consumers found that more than three

- quarters of 7


### Americans worry that these EPA policies to 8



### eliminate coal

- based electricity will produce 9


### higher electricity prices. 10



### The hardest hit will be states like 11


### Colorado, that rely heavily on clean coal for 12


### affordable electricity. Not only is the product 13


### that we produce in this state among the cleanest, 14


### high

- quality products produced anywhe re in the 15



### world, emissions from coal

- fired power plants 16


### throughout the United States have declined by 17


### more than 90 percent during the last several 18


### decades, notwithstanding the fact that coal use 19


### for electricity generation has increased. 20



### Colorado, due to i ts reliance on clean, 21


### high

- quality coal, has enjoyed electricity rates 22

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### at or below the national average. That will 1


### change. Rates area already rising, the result of 2


### mandates for higher

- cost energy sources, such as 3



### natural gas and renewable energy. These rate 4



### hikes will not be the last we see, as the EPA 5


### carbon regulation will eliminate even more coal

6


### based generation. 7



### Now, there are some in Colorado who boast 8



### that Colorado is ahead of the curve, because has 9


### mandated these higher

- cost sources of energy. I 10


### would submit that Colorado has just moved closer 11


### to the edge of the cliff. The EPA regulations 12


### are going to require a 35 percent reduction in 13



### these emissions, but there is no indication that 14


### the EPA will grant complete credit for the steps 15



### that Colorado has already taken to force the 16


### conversion to higher

- cost energy sources, nor is 17


### there any guarantee that these new regulations or 18


### credits will be applied in any equitable manner. 19



### These so

- called forward

- looking policies 20


### are also causing significant harm to rural 21



### economies and to businesses reliant on Colorado's 22

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### coal industry. Coal production is down 1


### substantially from 2004 levels. What does that 2



### mean for Colorado? Well, number one, it means 3



### lower federal royalty payments, because most of 4


### our coal is pr oduced on federal lands, and that 5


### means less money for the public school system, 6


### less money for governments in Colorado. 7


### More pain is yet to come. An analysis by 8


### NERA, an independent consulting firm of the 9



### regulatory model for the EPA rules, shows that 10



### e lectricity prices could increase by 49 percent, 11


### and could cause the loss of jobs, up to 9,000 12


### jobs in the multi

- state region that includes 13



### Colorado. 14



### The effects are very real and they are 15



### felt at a human level. Look at Sharon Garcia in 16



### Pueblo, unable to pay her bills because of the 17


### conversion of power plants to higher

- cost energy 18



### fuels. She can't use the oven in the summertime 19



### because it heats the house too much, and she has 20


### to light candles in the wintertime. She is not 21



### alone. Low

- and fixed

- income h ouseholds and 22

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### senior citizens are among those who are at the 1


### highest risk. 2


### These regulations will weaken our 3


### economy, our state, and our nation, while, 4


### ironically, the world is turning to coal. For 5


### all these reason, I strongly urge EPA to withdraw 6



### the rule and chart a course on climate regulation 7



### that does not threaten our most affordable and 8


### reliable source of electricity. 9



### Thank you. 10


### MS. NOONAN: Mr. Sanderson, if you could 11


### make sure that when you submit your written 12



### comments that the NERA study you referenced, we 13



### would be happy to have a look at that, as well. 14


### MR. SANDERSON: Yes, I will. Thank you. 15



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. Next up 16


### we have Jennifer Hampton and Marty Doyle, and on 17


### deck, Alexander Osif and Colie Kraft, if you'd 18



### like to sit in the seats behind the speaker's 19



### table. Spell your name. Spell your name. 20


### MS. HAMPTON: Hi. My name is Jennifer, 21


### last name is Hampton, H

- a

- m

- p

- t

- o

- n. Thank you, 22

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### EPA, for hearing our testimony this week. I'm 1


### here simply as a concerned citizen, and ob viously 2


### seeing how manmade pollution is greatly harming 3



### our land, water, air, wildlife, and human 4


### populations more all the time. I know that the 5


### problems are complex and that we are still 6


### learning. However, I feel strongly that it is 7


### our responsibility t o act now in areas that are 8



### within our control. 9


### The EPA has it right. We can and must 10



### reduce carbon emissions from coal

- fired power 11


### plants by 30 percent in 2030. I know that many 12


### states are already doing a lot in this direction, 13



### but this new rule will set a federal mandate, 14


### which will keep us all working together, and I 15


### think that is important. 16


### I also feel, especially after listening 17


### to the testimony prior to mine today, that it's 18


### very important that we work together to find 19


### solutions and are very res pectful to each other 20



### in the concerns on all sides of the issues. If 21


### we're careful in how we move forward, we can help 22

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### all concerned. Yesterday I heard a woman from an 1



### Indian reservation in Nevada, and I don't know 2


### the name of the reservation but I thoug ht it was 3



### a good example of a success story, where a 4


### particular coal mine was causing a lot of 5


### problems to the community and they were able to, 6



### I believe, shut it down or reduce

-- I don't know 7


### if it's completely shut down

-- and replace that 8



### with a solar energy plant, and a lot of the 9


### people from the coal mines were getting jobs now 10


### in the solar industry, with good

- paying jobs. 11



### I thought that was a good example of how 12


### we can work together to make positive changes. 13


### So, basically, everybody benefits from a healthy 14



### environment, and I believe that, overall, our 15


### economy will improve as our environment becomes 16



### healthier. 17


### I saw you were looking for comments on 18


### different technical categories, which I am 19


### obviously not the person, but I hope that we 20



### would find h ighly qualified people to conduct 21


### energy audits on the power plants, and that 22

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### people on all sides could agree on how that could 1



### happen. As we move towards our 2030 goal, we 2


### will start seeing what else needs to be done, but 3


### I'm glad that right now we're mo ving in the right 4


### direction with the Clean Power Plan today. 5



### Thank you. 6



### MS. NOONAN: If you can stay, and turn 7



### your speaker off. 8


### DR. DOYLE: Hello. My name is Dr. Marti 9



### Doyle. That's M

- a

- r

- t

- i D

- o

- y

- l

- e. I'm a 10


### professor at a faith

- based health scienc e college 11


### in Iowa. I have traveled here today to remind 12


### you of the importance of the EPA exercising their 13


### regulatory authority for the protection of public 14



### health. 15


### Where the EPA's recognition of the impact 16


### of smokestack emissions on health is a good 17



### star t, this recognition should represent the 18


### begging of an assessment of the entire fuel 19


### cycle, including drilling, mining, 20


### transportation, and waste management. I also ask 21



### that this assessment include the human cost of 22

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### mountaintop removal coal mining. 1



### Now , you may ask, why is a woman from 2


### Iowa concerned about mountaintop coal mining? 3


### Well, in March of this year, I traveled with a 4


### group of health care students to West Virginia, 5


### to participate in the Appalachia Community Health 6


### Research Project. The purpos e of this project 7


### was to conduct health surveys at mountaintop 8



### removal and non

- mountaintop removal communities. 9


### The data from these surveys is being used by Dr. 10


### Michael Hendryx to continue his research 11


### comparing the health of individuals in these two 12



### type s of communities. 13


### When I first explored the possibility of 14


### this trip, I approached the experience with an 15


### unbiased, academic perspective. I thought that 16


### it would be a great opportunity for students to 17


### both experience a different part of the country 18



### and h ave an opportunity to participate in 19


### research. I examined the two peer

- reviewed 20


### journal articles, based on data from previous 21


### health surveys, as well as similar research. 22

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### I learned that cancer and disease rates 1


### are twice as high in mountaintop removal mining 2


### communities compared to non

- mountaintop mining 3



### communities. I also learned that researchers 4


### have found significantly higher prevalence of 5


### birth defects in regions where there are 6


### mountaintop removal sites. 7



### I was unprepared, however, for what my 8


### students and I would experience firsthand. The 9


### first thing that happened, as I fell in love with 10


### the land and the people of West Virginia, the 11


### individuals and families that opened their doors 12


### and homes to us were some of the most welcoming 13



### people I have e ver met. They are people of 14


### strong faith. They are hard

- working, tough, and 15


### resilient. It is clear that family is the most 16


### important part of their lives. 17


### The second thing that happened was that I 18


### found myself becoming troubled as day after day I 19



### saw th ese people struggling with health 20


### challenges. After a few days of conducting 21


### surveys, I found myself unsure if I was actually 22

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### ready to see another individual struggling with 1


### serious lung disease. The individuals who are my 2



### age stood out to me the most. They should be 3


### enjoying their lives, their children and 4


### grandchildren, like I'm able to. They should be 5


### able to live their life fully. Instead they 6


### struggling just to breathe. 7


### After conducting a survey with a young 8


### man, he told me he had endured multipl e surgeries 9



### to correct a heart defect. I thought of a story 10



### that I'd heard from a student who had 11


### participated in last year's health survey. She 12



### and her fellow students had stopped at a house 13



### and asked the woman who answered the door if she 14



### had time to c omplete the survey. The woman 15


### answered that she was willing to participate but 16


### she was getting ready to put her child down for a 17



### nap. She told the students that she always 18


### walked her child to sleep, because he'd been born 19



### with a severe heart defect. 20



### Whe n the students returned a few days 21



### later to complete the survey, they talked to the 22

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### grandmother of that child and found out that the 1


### day that they had talked to the mother, the child 2


### had died while taking his nap. 3



### I ask you to remember that these 4



### individu als represent the human cost of our 5


### country's failure to properly invest in renewable 6


### energy sources. The suffering of the people of 7


### Appalachia must not be overlooked in any 8


### discussions of energy policy. These good people 9


### deserve better. As they weight the cost benefit 10


### of coal mining in their communities, they deserve 11


### to know the impact of coal mining on their and 12


### their families' health. They love and trust 13


### their country. We cannot let them down. 14



### Thank you. 15


### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Alexander Osif 16



### and Colie Kraft. Remember to spell your names. 17


### MS. KRAFT: My name is Colie Kraft. C

- o

18



### l

- i

- e K

- r

- a

- f

- t. I work full

- time as a barista 19



### at a local coffee shop, part

- time as a student of 20


### water chemistry at Metro, and I devote my free 21


### time to volunteering at the Sierra Club, and 22

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### rooting for the Green Bay Packers. I was 1


### debating on exactly what I wanted to say to you 2


### today during my testimony. I could reiterate the 3


### facts and figures from trusted peers and 4


### advisors, but I'm no expert witness, and you 5



### heard tho se numbers yesterday. 6


### I wish I could share with you the heart

7


### wrenching tale of the insipid degradation of our 8



### ecosystem has had on me personally, but others 9


### have shared far more compelling stories. 10


### Instead, I would like to share with you a little 11



### story about adaption and perseverance. 12


### I grew up in a small, blue

- collar town in 13



### our nation's heartland, West Bend, Wisconsin. I 14


### was an awkward little girl. My glasses were 15


### always too big, my teeth are crooked, and my 16


### ethnicity was always constantly questione d. 17


### "It's okay," my dad would always say, "It builds 18



### character." 19



### I doubled down on my awkwardness by 20


### seeking solace in comic book heroes. Summers 21


### were spend in my mandatory uniform

-- a mask, a 22

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### cape, and a ballerina tutu. I would save the 1



### denizens of th e Kettle Moraine Forest from the 2



### evildoers and ne'er

- do

- wellers. I can't be sure, 3


### but I think the squirrels appreciated my efforts. 4


### My father would just smile and encourage my 5


### behavior by adopting a superhero identity of his 6



### own, sans tutu, of course. 7


### In the summer of 1995, my life changed 8


### irrevocably. My mother succumbed to her life

9


### long battle of depression and committed suicide. 10


### I could not begin to put into words the 11



### tremendous sense of anger and loss I felt as a 12



### 12

- year

- old girl, nor the sense o f profound 13


### disappoint I experience today as a 30

- year

- old 14


### woman, nor could I completely identify with my 15



### father's bereavement. I lost my mother, but he 16


### lost his mate, his partner in crime. 17



### Still, he redirected and redoubled his 18



### efforts. We put away our superhero identities to 19



### become softball players, band geeks, and bad 20


### scientists. Our days were filled with constant 21


### activities and new directions, anything to find a 22

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### new center of balance in our fracture home. As 1


### summer came to a close and the nights bec ame 2


### cooler, I remember watching the forest outside my 3



### home slowly turn to red, and I suddenly felt very 4


### still and very lonely. "I don't want summer to 5



### end," I said. I was scared to start middle 6


### school without my mother. "It's okay," my dad 7



### said. "Seaso ns change. Everything changes. It 8



### builds character." 9


### We stand now at a very unique precipice. 10


### Our global seasons are changing rapidly and 11


### dramatically, both physically and metaphorically. 12


### We can see the rising tide and the writing on the 13



### wall. We can choose to ignore it and continue 14


### on, as business as usual, out of some stagnant 15


### fear of perceived job loss or quality of life, 16


### but that type of leaner thinking only results in 17


### fatal tragedy, and it has a resounding collateral 18


### impact on future generations. This is perhaps 19


### the most useful lesson my mother's suicide has 20



### taught me. 21


### We can whine and bitch and moan and stamp 22

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### our feet at the perceived injustice of it all. 1


### We can point to China and India and cry foul, 2


### like a lonely, grieving little 12

- year

- old girl, 3


### but that's just stinking thinking. Or we can 4


### accept that everything changes. Nothing is 5



### sacred or safe. We can find new avenues to 6


### direct our energy and reap the benefits and 7



### rewards of hard work and perseverance. 8


### In the end, it's easy to see t he world as 9



### black and white, see coal and fossil fuels as 10


### evildoers. We can point the finger at these 11



### ne'er

- do

- wellers and gnash our teeth at them, but 12


### each and every one of us reaps the benefit of 13


### their plunder. 14


### I'm asking everyone in this room to 15



### asses s their own personal use and to take 16


### accountability of their actions. Changing the 17


### paradigm of a coal

- based energy infrastructure 18


### won't be easy, but it starts at home. There may 19


### be some growing pains, some moments of 20


### uncomfortability, but that builds cha racter. As 21



### Americans, I believe we can rise to the occasion. 22

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### We can adapt to new greener energies and 1


### technologies, and reestablish ourselves as 2


### confident world leaders, independent of fossil 3



### fuel. 4



### And as a brief note, as I left for 5



### college, my dad pack ed away my little black tutu, 6


### just in case I ever needed to be a superhero. 7


### "Oh, my God, there's no way I'm wearing that 8



### around campus." "Why not?" my dad asked, 9


### cheekily. "It builds character." 10


### So let's all put on our big girl tutus 11



### and be our own sup erheroes. 12



### Thank you. 13


### MR. OSIF: Good morning. My name is 14



### Alexander Osif. A

- l

- e

- x

- a

- n

- d

- e

- r O

- s

- i

- f. I 15


### live in a town called Kayenta, Arizona. I am a 16



### member of the United Mine Workers Local 1924, and 17



### work for Peabody Western Coal Company, located on 18



### t he Navajo and Hopi Reservation. My bloodline 19


### consists of Navajo, Hopi, and Pima. 20


### Thank you for allowing me to take time 21


### and to speak at this hearing on the EPA's 22

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### proposed rule. While I find this rule disturbing 1


### in many ways, I will keep my comments br ief and 2


### focused on some of the statements regarding what 3


### the policy will do for America. 4



### In a press release on June 2, 2014, the 5


### agency made many predictions about what benefits 6


### will be reaped as a result of this rule. The EPA 7



### noted that the rule will fight climate change 8


### while supplying America with reliable and 9


### efficient power. I think the idea that this rule 10


### will do anything to reduce global emissions, it 11



### has been clearly refuted by many of the speakers 12



### before me. 13



### It is the second half of that st atement 14


### that I also find questionable. I would argue 15


### that, unlike most other nations around the globe, 16


### we have already accomplished that goal. 17



### Moreover, we have done it while, at the same 18


### time, keeping energy costs low enough to allow 19


### affordability for e very body. Sometimes it is 20


### what you don't say that can be as important as 21


### what you want people to believe. It is about 22

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### efficiency, reliability, but it is also about 1


### affordability. You can produce all types of 2


### products and offer unlimited services, but i f 3


### people cannot afford them, there is no use in 4


### producing them. It's strange, but even Henry 5


### Ford, a man known for being overly generous, 6



### understood that, and he couldn't sell a car to a 7


### person who didn't make enough money to buy one. 8



### Unfortunately, you are looking at the 9


### same situation from the opposite point of view. 10


### You intend to produce a product and assume that 11


### regardless of cost burden placed on the working 12


### families they will have no choice but to buy it. 13


### The same problem will exist for businesses in 14


### this country. They will be required to purchase 15


### power from far more expensive generating 16



### resources. But unlike the workers who lose their 17


### jobs, businesses will do what they have done for 18


### decades when faced with rising costs. They will 19



### close shop and move to another country, where 20



### costs are lower. The costs associated with the 21


### rule will help escalate unemployment in the 22

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### remaining industrial base of our nation. 1


### As you consider the consequences of the 2


### rule, it should become clear that your prediction 3


### that it will spur innovation and great jobs may 4


### eventually come true, just not in the United 5


### States. We will once again create the perfect 6


### conditions to assist our competitors around the 7


### globe at the expense of our own citizens. 8



### And as a race to the bott om, in the 9


### nation, the policy you impose will be seen for 10



### what it is

-- expensive and futile. 11


### Thank you for the opportunity. 12


### MS. NOONAN: I'd like to ask if Rosalyn 13


### Bower [ph] could please go to the registration 14


### table in the other room, Rosalyn Bower, if you're 15


### in this room. Okay. Next up we have Don Shelley 16



### and Diane Schrack, and on deck Steve Dschaak and 17


### Phil Russell, if you'd like to sit in the two 18


### seats behind the speaker's table. Thank you. 19



### Spell your name. Push the button and 20



### spell your name. 21


### MS. SCHRACK: My name is Diane Schrack. 22

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### D

- i

- a

- n

- e S

- c

- h

- r

- a

- c

- k. I live in Highlands 1



### Ranch, Colorado, and I'm concerned that the EPA's 2


### proposal under President Obama's Clean Power Plan 3


### is not strong enough to address the climate 4


### crisis that we're facing today and in the future. 5


### Carl Sagan said, "Anything else you're 6


### interested in is not going to happen if you 7



### cannot breathe the air and drink the water. You 8


### are, by accident of fate, and alive in an 9


### absolutely critical moment in the history of our 10



### plane t." 11


### Carl Sagan said that a few decades ago. 12


### The climate changes we are experiencing right now 13


### didn't just happen. We've been spewing 14


### greenhouse gases and carbon dioxide into the 15


### atmosphere since the Industrial Revolution began. 16


### We are facing the conseq uences of that today, and 17



### that is a fact. 18


### The Environmental Protection Agency is an 19


### extremely important position right now to make 20


### real, substantial change to U.S. environmental 21


### policy. Climate change is the single most 22

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### important issue facing us today, a n issue with 1


### social, economic, political, and environmental 2


### parameters, here and worldwide. Your current 3


### proposal is nice, and it gives the impression of 4


### effective change, but it needs to be based on 5



### relevant evidence and science. We don't have 6


### time to p lay politics and deal with influence

7


### peddling from partisan polititioning and money 8



### interests. 9



### The solution needs to fit the scale of 10



### the problem. Your proposal to cut carbon 11


### pollution is based on 2005 levels. 2005 was 12



### close to the peak year of U.S. c arbon pollution, 13


### so your baseline is already skewed toward the 14


### highest level of carbon. Your EPA Fact Sheet 15


### states that the proposal will maintain an 16


### affordable, reliable energy system, while cutting 17


### pollution and protecting our health now and for 18



### future generations, but in reality this is just 19


### not true. A healthy, sustainable future cannot 20



### afford the amount of carbon your plan allows for. 21


### It's not possible. 22

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### In fact, your information sheet says 1



### climate and weather disasters in 2012 cost the 2



### American e conomy more than $100 billion. Carbon 3


### extraction processes and its pollution bring us 4


### drought, wildfires, floods, contaminated air and 5


### water, debilitating human health issues, ocean 6


### acidification, melting glaciers, and earthquakes, 7



### all very costly consequ ences that never seem to 8


### be recognized in macro scale economic analyses. 9


### The carbon pollution that you are 10


### addressing is already creating sea level rise 11


### that impacts human and animal migration, and food 12


### and water shortages that promote violent 13



### conflicts among people around the world who are 14


### just trying to survive. 15


### When you've talking about environmental 16


### protection, you're talking about responsibility 17


### to others. We can't ignore that reality any 18


### longer. There is a time and place for 19


### regulation. It is l ong past that time. And 20


### please bear in mind, your regulations will set 21


### the floor and establish the very least companies 22

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### can do to keep in regulatory compliance. Carbon 1



### should be taxed for the social and environmental 2



### harm it causes. 3



### The EPA needs to bri ng about a massive 4


### shift beyond fossil fuels. You should not be 5


### promoting nuclear power or natural gas 6


### production. Both are harmful, and we can't 7


### afford the doing

- less

- of

- a

- harmful

- thing anymore. 8


### Our future lies in conservation, energy 9


### efficiency, and p roven carbon

- free renewable 10



### energy. We've got the technology, we've got the 11



### workers. We need the EPA to stand up and help 12


### make it possible for us to get there. 13


### Your proposal is not enough. The EPA 14


### needs to go back to the drawing board and quickly 15



### come up with a plan that adequately addresses the 16


### actual impact of U.S. carbon emissions on our 17



### planet. And then, please get back to us as you 18


### are so graciously doing today, so we can weigh in 19


### on the policy that affects the sustainability of 20


### our very lives, no t just here in Colorado but 21



### around the world, as well. 22

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### Thank you. 1


### MR. SHELLEY: Good morning. My name is 2


### Don Louis Shelley. D

- o

- n S

- h

- e

- l

- l

- e

- y. I live 3



### in Price, Utah, and I am a member of UMWA Local 4


### 1769. I began working in the coal industry in 5



### 1979 , for American Coal Company, at the Deer 6


### Creek Mine in Huntington, Utah. I also worked 7


### for Emery Mining, Utah Power and Light Mining, 8


### Scottish Power, and PacifiCorp's Energy West 9


### Mining. I worked a total of 31 years in the Deer 10


### Creek Mine, which supplies coal to the major 11


### power plants in Utah. 12


### Today I'd like to discuss an issue that 13


### seems to be missing from this conversation. It 14


### very well could be that while everyone at the EPA 15


### was working so hard to eliminate coal from the 16


### nation's energy mix, you neve r even considered 17


### some of the harm that you are doing. I am 18


### referring to the disruption of the United Mine 19



### Workers of America's Health and Retirement Funds. 20


### The Funds currently pay pensions and health care 21


### for nearly 100,000 retired coal miners, their 22

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### fa milies, and widows. 1



### There are also tens of thousands of 2


### working miners who are counting on those earned 3


### benefits when their working lives in the mines 4


### are done. The funds were created in 1946 by an 5


### agreement signed in the White House by President 6



### Harry Truman, looking on. The continuation of 7


### the funds depends, as it has from its inception, 8


### on continuing contributions from coal operators 9



### under contract with the UMWA. 10



### The amount of contributions each coal 11


### company depends on, the number of miners they 12


### employ, and the hours each of those miners work. 13


### The Funds distribute over $500 million each year 14


### in pensions, and another $500 million in health 15


### care benefits. That's over $1 billion a year that 16


### we put into the economy. 17


### The union has understood for year s that a 18


### healthy coal industry is key to adequately 19


### funding the benefits of our retirees and widows. 20


### For the past 68 years, we have negotiated 21


### contracts with the coal operators that protect 22

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### the funds and allow the industry to thrive. We 1



### all understand th at it is essential to have 2


### someone sitting on the other side of the table to 3


### negotiate with. Accomplishing this, despite the 4


### ups and downs of the industry, and the ever

5


### changing energy needs of the nation has never 6



### been easy, but we have been successful. 7



### Now, we, as a union, and each of our 8


### members and widows who rely on those benefits we 9


### have earned to sustain us through their 10


### retirement years, are facing a crisis that your 11


### agency is creating. When you implement this 12


### policy, which the EPA acknowledges w ill close 13


### down a significant portion of the coal industry 14


### in this country, you eliminate the companies we 15


### rely upon to continue to fund these benefits. 16


### Without those employers, there are no miners, and 17


### there is no one to pay into the funds. It will 18



### only be a matter of time until the money runs out 19


### and pensions and health care of all those who 20



### worked so hard to secure them, are left without 21


### any retirement security. 22

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### I want each of you to think about that. 1


### I want you to understand that what you are doing 2



### i s not just implementing some happy plan that 3


### everyone should be dancing in the streets about. 4


### In fact, you are placing the lives of all the 5


### people I am talking about in jeopardy. I hope 6


### you take this into consideration, and I want to 7



### thank you for your t ime today. 8



### Thank you. 9


### MR. DSCHAAK: Good morning. My name is 10



### Steven Dschaak. S

- t

- e

- v

- e

- n D

- s

- c

- h

- a

- a

- k. I 11



### live in Beulah, North Dakota. I am with UMWA 12


### Local Union 1101. I was vice president for 9 13


### years and I'm still a committee member. I work 14



### for Dakota Westmoreland Coal Company, Beulah, 15



### North Dakota. 16


### When I heard the EPA was holding hearings 17


### about the Clean Power Plan, I immediately began 18


### trying to contact the agency in hoping to be able 19


### to speak against this rule. I feel the rule was 20



### written a s misguided. It punishes workers in the 21


### United States and does little, if anything, for 22

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### the environment. The rule proposes to reduce 1


### carbon emissions globally by dismantling American 2


### coal industry. I have to question why a U.S. 3


### agency like the EPA is ig noring evidence that 4


### China and India intend on ramping up their coal 5


### usage, regardless of what the United States does. 6


### They increase coal mining, importing, burning 7


### coal, with few pollution controls, at a rate 8


### already far surpassing our country. 9



### Maybe I should not be surprised. After 10



### all, the EPA has not hidden its intention to shut 11


### down the coal industry in this country, seeing 12


### the industry is obsolete, despite the thousands 13


### of Americans it employs. And now you expect us 14


### to go away quietly. I assure t hat will not 15



### happen. I have to ask, does the EPA see all 16


### miners, regardless of the facts to the contrary, 17


### as dirty polluters who must be eliminated? Many 18


### of your strong supporters of the environmental 19


### movement do. Do you actually believe we spend 20



### our li ves with our hands in the sand and not see 21


### what's happening around us? 22

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### In the end, most people will not wonder 1


### or care what happens to my wife, my family, or 2


### the others if I no longer have a job. No one is 3


### thinking about the burden my family or coworkers 4


### will face if we no longer have a steady paycheck 5



### or if there is no contributions to the United 6



### Mine Workers Health and Retirement Funds. No one 7


### will care until the money runs out. The 8


### government, which is killing our jobs, must pay 9


### the price in unemploy ment benefits, welfare, and 10


### public assistance. 11



### I am proud to have been able to take care 12


### of my family because of the work that I do. I'm 13


### proud to be a miner. I have never asked for a 14



### handout from the people around me or from the 15



### government. I want to pay my own way. I want to 16


### work. I feel pride in my work. I want to be 17


### able to continue my profession and produce coal 18


### to power this nation. 19


### I have worked in the mines for 36 years. 20


### I don't want my job to be given to someone in 21


### another country who wil l never, ever hear about 22

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### this type of rule. This rule will not help the 1


### environment, but it will throw away my future and 2


### cause hardship on many others. 3


### Thank you for your time. 4


### MR. RUSSELL: Good morning. My name is 5


### Phil Russell. It's spelled P

- h

- i

- l R

- u

- s

- s

- e

- l

6


### l. I come from a town on the Navajo Nation 7



### called Chinle, Arizona. I have worked for 8


### Peabody Coal Company since 1978. I'm a member of 9



### Local 1620 and a retiree. I worked at the Black 10


### Mesa Mine when it was open. Today that mine no 11



### longer ex ists. 12


### This morning, when I came here, I looked 13



### around the room and I can see that a lot of you 14


### are well dressed. You've got nice clothes on, 15


### nice suits. I bet you, in order to make what 16


### you're wearing came from power that was derived 17



### from coal. The med icine that we take today, 18


### also. So everything in this room. You look at 19


### the lights that we're fortunate to have, was from 20



### coal. The rug that we walk on was from coal. I 21



### think, I believe the EPA has to think about what 22

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### we enjoy today cannot go away in a policy that 1



### has been created. We have to sit down and talk 2



### more in

- depth about how we can regulate what 3



### we're here for today. We can't go to the extreme 4


### and cut it all with the stroke of a pen. 5



### The land that I come from, we've already 6



### endured third

- wor ld conditions. We still live in 7


### those condition. I'd like to invite you all down 8


### there to see how we live, as Navajo Indians. 9


### I served under President Joe Shirley as 10


### an assistant staff assistant, in the early part 11



### of 2002. This was a concern at that tim e. The 12


### Navajo Nation, at that time, through the planning 13


### of our leaders, we are going to get into the coal 14


### industry. We are going to produce coal, as a 15


### Navajo Nation. 16


### Now, it's very important that you do come 17



### down and talk with us, because if these rule s are 18



### instituted, the revenues that the nation is 19


### getting will be depleted. You have to think it 20


### about it very careful, what you do here today. 21


### You've got Native Americans that rely upon coal. 22

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### Years ago, you probably all remember, 1



### when we were in World War II, the U.S.A. asked 2


### us, "Help us." We did. We fought. Our 3


### forefathers fought, the Navajo Code Talkers. 4



### That's why you're here today. Remember that. 5



### Excuse me. 6


### I am not here to argue with anyone about 7



### science that the EPA has used to determine t hat 8


### weather patterns are changing or if the 9


### temperature of the Earth is fluctuating. It's 10


### not my intent to sit here and argue that changes 11


### are not occurring. I am not, as many who may 12


### disagree with this regulatory policy, are labeled 13


### by his proponents "a denier of science." 14



### When it comes to clean water, clean air, 15


### and a safe environment for my children and 16


### grandchildren to grow up, my hope is no different 17


### than anyone else. They have a right to expect 18


### that the place they decide to call home, no 19



### matter whe re it is, allows them the opportunity 20


### that other generations have enjoyed. We all have 21


### an obligation to ensure that we do all we can to 22

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### make sure they have every chance at a healthy and 1


### prosperous life. 2



### I do not doubt, for one minute, that is a 3



### sincere goal of everyone testifying here today. 4


### This issue does pose extremely difficult 5


### problems. Like many of the people I know and 6


### work with, I have listened for years to the 7


### raging debate about climate change and the need 8


### to address this issue. The question in my mind 9



### is not whether we need to find a solution to this 10


### problem, because I think we can all agree that we 11


### do. Rather, the question is, will the path we 12


### take to correct the problem really achieve the 13


### goals we are hoping it will? 14



### I can't see that wha t you are doing with 15


### this policy will accomplish that goal. The mine 16


### industry, where I have made a living for many 17


### years, will be put out of business. The job 18


### losses at the mine will affect everyone in the 19


### community and everyone on the Navajo Nation and 20


### in the metropolitan areas of Phoenix, Arizona, 21



### and Tucson, Arizona. All those communities will 22

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### be affected, and every Native American community 1



### south of the reservation will be affected. 2



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. If you 3



### have additional comments, please submit them for 4



### the record. 5



### MR. RUSSELL: Okay. Thank you. 6



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. Up 7


### next we have Robert Clarke and Steven Feagins, 8


### and on deck Jeremy Epstein and Anne Ekelad. 9


### MR. CLARKE: Good morning. My name is 10



### Robert Clarke, C

- l

- a

- r

- k

- e. I'm a retired miner 11



### and a member of United Mine Workers Local 1307, 12


### Kemmerer, Wyoming. I went to work in the mines 13


### my second day after being home from Vietnam and 14



### I've worked there for 40 years. I have been 15


### retired for 3 years. 16



### I currently receive a pension from the 17



### Westmoreland Coal Company and my health care 18


### benefits come from Chevron Mining. These are 19


### benefits that I have earned through the years of 20


### hard work in the coal industry. I think it's 21


### important for everyone here to understand t hat 22

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### the pension and health care benefits I receive 1


### are the results of years of sacrifice. They are 2


### the promise in the collective bargaining 3


### agreement between the United Mine Workers and the 4


### coal operators, to provide economic security and 5



### health benefits to older miners when we retire 6


### from the industry. 7


### Whether you know it or not, the policy 8


### that the EPA is proposing here, when fully 9


### implemented, will put these hard

- earned benefits 10


### at serious risk. Looking at this from my point 11


### of view, your hope that this policy will 12


### eliminate a global problem is uncertain, at best. 13


### However, the rush to apply this risky policy, 14


### which focuses mostly and exclusively on the coal 15


### industry, will make it uncertain that I will 16


### receive the pension and health care benefits tha t 17


### was promised, and that I risked my life and 18



### health for every day I worked. 19



### I believe the situation that us retired 20



### coal miners and their families face because of 21


### this policy is outrageous. The problem should be 22

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### easy for everyone here to understand. It 's about 1


### keeping what you have worked a lifetime to 2


### achieve. I am sure that each of you look forward 3


### to the day when you can retire and continue to 4


### live in security because of the retirement 5


### promises that were made to you in return for your 6



### hard work. 7



### I, for one, sincerely hope that those 8


### days arrive for you, when you choose to leave 9


### your profession, and you may retire with dignity. 10


### This is all that I ask for. It is all that my 11


### brothers and sisters, who have given the best 12


### years of their lives and their profession are 13


### looking to receive. We have earned the right to 14


### expect security in our retirement. We have 15


### secured those rights through hard work, 16


### sacrifice, and years of collective bargaining 17


### agreement. But if this agency chooses to adopt 18


### this question able policy and destroy a large 19


### portion of the coal industry, it will also 20



### destroy a lot of futures. 21


### In closing, I would like to thank you for 22

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### your time and ask you that you look very closely 1


### at the consequences of your actions here. 2



### Thank you. 3



### MR. FEA GINS: Good morning, and thank you 4


### for the opportunity to speak. My name is Steven 5


### Feagins, S

- t

- e

- v

- e

- n F

- e

- a

- g

- i

- n

- s. I'm a mobile 6


### equipment operator at Ambre Energy's Decker coal 7


### mine in Decker, Montana. I have 30 years of 8


### seniority. I reside in Sher idan, Wyoming, where 9


### I am President of UMW Local 1972. I represent 10



### both union and non

- union members at the Decker 11


### coal mine, which employs over 100 people. I am 12



### the former President of the UMWA District 15, 13


### which was headquartered here in Wheat Ridge, 14



### Co lorado. 15


### In the early 1900s [sic], I was appointed 16



### by the then

- Governor Roy Romer to a commission to 17


### study the effects of the Hayden Power Station in 18


### Hayden, Colorado, on a neighboring wilderness 19



### area. In that commission, it was found that 20



### there was great er damage to the flora and fauna 21


### of the neighboring wilderness area when the coal

22

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### fired power plant was shut down for its annual 1


### repair. The scientists for the opposition could 2


### only explain that as a phenomena. 3


### After nearly 12 years, I am again 4


### defending coal

- fired power plants. I presume 5


### that you are aware of the fact that the United 6


### States has the single largest energy source in 7



### the world, with more recoverable coal than there 8



### is oil in Saudi Arabia. The coal reserves that I 9



### mine is the Powder River B asin, which has in 10



### excess of 300 years of recoverable coal. 11


### In this country, along with our coal 12



### reserves, and the recent Bakken Oilfield 13


### discovery in North Dakota, the United States has 14


### the ability not only to achieve energy 15


### independence but it can becom e a major energy 16



### exporter. 17


### Instead of applying the innovation and 18


### technology that this country has always 19


### championed, and utilizing coal, the EPA has 20


### decided to drastically reduce coal production. 21


### It really does make me wonder if the agency and 22

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### some othe rs in this country have decided that we 1



### are no longer smart enough or capable enough to 2


### accomplish such goals. A part of me once 3


### believed that can't be true; this rule appears to 4


### signal you believe it. 5


### How is it possible that we can be so 6



### short

- sighted? We have the energy resource to 7


### continue to provide cheap and efficient power, 8


### yet we throw it away for a hope and a prayer. We 9


### hope that other countries will follow our lead 10


### and eliminate their own efforts to achieve energy 11


### independence. We pray that so me day we will be 12


### able to stop investing huge sums of taxpayer 13


### dollars to subsidize wind and solar energy. 14


### This policy will simply not be 15


### sustainable when fully implemented. No one can 16


### tell what the actual impact will be on a power 17


### grid that cannot react immediately to increased 18


### power needs on a large scale. It is certain wind 19


### and solar cannot meet any of these instances. 20


### What we will do when these events present 21



### themselves

-- what will we do when these events 22

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### present themselves? Who will decide which home, 1


### which business, or which hospital is permitted to 2


### operate while others are caught without 3


### electricity? If we continue to travel down this 4


### road towards energy deficiency, someone had 5


### better write another rule to determine power 6


### rationing. 7



### I'd like to read a quote from a 8


### periodical put out by the Peabody Coal Company, 9


### called "Peabody Coal and Energy News," in which 10


### they have quoted an article called "EPA Climate 11


### Rules Plant Seeds of an Energy Crisis." It's 12


### from The Daily Caller. It was dated June 2 5, 13



### 2014. 14


### "The Environmental Protection Agency 15


### regulations, aimed at retiring coal

- fired power 16


### plants, are sowing the seeds of a U.S. energy 17


### crisis, according to a new report. Energy 18


### emission rules are setting the stage for higher 19


### energy prices and potent ial brownouts and 20



### blackouts across much of the country. Last 21


### winter, families in New England and in parts of 22

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### the Midwest saw their energy prices skyrocket 1


### because the region's natural gas pipeline 2


### infrastructure was not able to get enough fuel to 3



### where it needed to go. Cold weather also caused 4


### problems with pipelines and gas plants." 5


### MS. NOONAN: Finish up, then. 6


### MR. FEAGINS: "As electricity rates 7


### increase to an estimated 40 percent and demand 8


### exceeds supply, there will be no reserves capable 9



### to genera te the power needed." As also stated 10


### here, a large part of the population of the 11


### United States already has to make a choice 12



### between food or medicine, and now, with this 13


### regulation, you are adding electricity to that 14


### equation. 15



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much, and if 16


### you can submit your full comments for the record, 17


### we would appreciate that. 18



### MR. FEAGINS: Thank you. 19


### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Jeremy Epstein 20



### and Anne Ekelad? 21


### MS. EKELAD: Do I go first? Okay. Sorry 22

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### about that. Hello. My name Anne Ekelad , A

- n

- n

- e 1



### E

- k

- e

- l

- a

- d. I'm here speaking to support the 2



### EPA's Clean Power Plan. I'm here as a concerned 3



### citizen of Colorado and the United States, but 4



### most of all, I'm here as a mother. 5


### When we talk about climate change, a lot 6


### of time the dialog is focu sed on what kind of 7


### world we will be leaving our children and 8


### grandchildren, and this is very important. 9



### However, we need to focus on the effects climate 10


### change is having right now, as they are viewed 11


### through the uncertain and dangerous future we 12



### face wit hout strong regulations on carbon. 13



### In September 2013, northern Colorado, 14


### where I make my home, was ravaged by flooding. 15



### Prior to the floods, we had been in a state of 16


### drought, and when the equivalent of an entire 17


### year's worth of precipitation fell in a m atter of 18


### days, it caused over $1 billion in damage to 19



### homes, businesses, and infrastructure, as well as 20


### taking the lives of eight people. These kind of 21



### extreme weather events used to be called 100

- year 22

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### floods, but without curbing carbon pollution, 1


### they wi ll be come once

- a

- mortgage events. Is 2


### this really the kind of uncertain future we want 3



### to hand off to our children? 4


### This is my son, Lex [ph]. He is 3 years 5


### old and is the light of my life. He brings me 6


### more joy than I knew a person could experience. 7



### H owever, that joy gets dampened when I think 8


### about what his world, what our world might look 9


### like in 15, 20, or 30 years. I am gravely 10



### concerned. Clean air to breathe, a livable 11



### climate

-- these are things that we take for 12



### granted every day, but they are things that we 13


### need to work hard to protect. They are things 14


### that every child, every person on this planet is 15


### entitled to, and we're not going to have them 16



### unless we take serious action now to address 17


### carbon pollution. 18


### Curbing carbon pollution requires 19



### i mmediate and sustained action. Carbon pollution 20


### from power plants is the largest single source of 21


### carbon dioxide emissions. Those who would oppose 22

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### these common sense standards included in the 1


### EPA's Clean Power Plan need to explain why they 2


### support no lim it at all for power plants with 3


### this kind of pollution. Why don't we all agree 4


### that unlimited pollution is bad for everyone? We 5


### have the technology to move forward with a clean 6


### energy future. We just need to leave this kind 7


### of polluting energy in our pa st. 8


### Carbon pollution harms our health, our 9


### economy, and our way of life

-- air pollution and 10


### the asthma it causes, property losses like the 11


### loss of homes from wildfires in Colorado Springs 12


### in 2013, and the increased food prices that we 13


### will see as crop yi elds decline, due to extreme 14


### temperatures. Climate change paints a very 15


### frightening picture of our possible future, but 16


### we can still mitigate its worst effects. 17



### The EPA's Clean Power Plan is an 18


### important first step in addressing climate 19


### change, but it ne eds to be stronger. That's why 20


### I'm asking that the EPA strengthens the Clean 21



### Power Plan and finalizes a rule that reduces 22

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### carbon dioxide emissions 40 percent below 2005 1



### levels by 2020. 2


### Thank you for taking the time to listen 3


### to my testimony. I appreci ate the opportunity to 4


### speak out for myself in this manner. 5


### MR. EPSTEIN: Good morning. My name is 6


### Jeremy Epstein. I work for Harcourt Brown & 7


### Carey. We're a national clean energy finance 8


### consulting firm that specializes in energy 9



### finance. We've advis ed on development of dozens 10



### of clean energy

- related programs, some of which 11



### are represented by the speakers here today. 12


### Thanks for the opportunity to get up and speak 13


### today. I appreciate it. 14


### I'd like to first applaud the EPA and the 15



### Obama Administration for making 111(d) a reality. 16


### Federal action to curb emissions is long overdue, 17


### and while emissions reduction targets proposed by 18



### 111(d) fall short of what our best scientists 19


### have called for, it's a start, and I predict that 20


### states not only meet their ta rgets, but by 21


### existing benefits and job creation while doing 22

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### so. Such a result will hopefully create momentum 1



### for states to go beyond 111(d)'s mandates. 2


### Harcourt Brown & Carey particularly 3


### supports provisions of 111(d) that deal with 4



### renewable energy and energy efficiency. However, 5


### we'd like to recommend that energy efficiency 6


### targets be strengthened. If the EPA would like 7


### states to reduce energy consumption cheaply and 8


### efficiently, then energy efficiency is the way to 9


### go about it. 10



### Section 111(d) shoul d include energy 11


### efficiency requirements rigorous enough to ensure 12


### that reductions in electricity use and the 13


### resulting emissions reductions are real and 14


### verifiable. Technology and methodology exists to 15


### quantify savings. However, without strong 16



### language from the EPA, accurate measurement and 17


### verification of these savings across the grid 18


### will likely not be a reality. 19



### Since the Stimulus Act in 2010, states 20



### and local governments have developed a plethora 21


### of proven tools to deploy energy efficiency and 22

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### renew ables to reduce energy consumption. In 1



### addition, the stimulus created a market 2


### transformation whereby a great number of private 3


### firms have been created or expanded to meet the 4


### demand of a growing energy efficiency industry. 5


### As a representative of Harcour t Brown & 6


### Carey, I want it to be clear the importance of 7


### financing as a tool to ensure states are able to 8


### meet their energy efficiency and renewable energy 9


### targets. Since the rise and fall

-- sorry. 10



### Since the time of ARRA, we have seen an 11



### unprecedented l evel of capital investment from 12


### the private sector into funding clean energy 13


### through structured finance products. Let's keep 14



### that momentum. 15


### PACE, Property Assessed Clean Energy, is 16


### one example of a statewide legislation that will 17


### enable rapid deployment of capital in order to 18


### make energy retrofits a reality in commercial 19


### buildings. States have enacted PACE legislation 20


### on their own with the right guidance provided by 21


### the EPA, and assistance in bringing other states 22

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### up to speed, could help states leverage the 1



### development of what's already been done to boost 2


### local economies or reduce the emissions through 3


### energy efficiency. 4


### The extent to which implementation of 5


### structured financial products can help be 6


### integrated as part of 111(d), or as part of an 7



### official tool kit for states, will only help 8


### states meet their emissions reduction goals in 9



### the most cost

- effective manner. 10


### Again, thank you to EPA and the Obama 11



### Administration for taking action on the issue. 12


### This is important to me, both as a professional 13



### and as a concerned citizen. 14


### Thanks for your time. 15


### MS. NOONAN: Thank you, and one question 16


### for you. If there are things that you could 17


### submit in writing for what you think should be 18


### included in that tool kit, we would very much 19


### appreciate that. 20



### MR. EPSTEIN : Yeah, I could do so. 21



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. And up next we 22

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### have Lisa Hickey and Michael Hendryx, and on 1


### deck, if you'd like to sit in the chairs behind 2



### the speaker's table, Charles Nelson and Marshall 3



### Johnson. And please remember to spell your nam e. 4


### MS. HICKEY: Hello. My name is Lisa 5


### Torman [ph] Hickey. I'm an attorney. My last 6



### name is H

- i

- c

- k

- e

- y. I'm a practicing attorney 7


### with Alpern Myers Stuart LLC in Colorado Springs. 8



### I'm also a business owner. I've lived in 9


### Colorado Springs for over 3 0 years. My work is 10


### focused primarily on electricity regulation in 11


### several western states. My clients and I 12


### appreciate the hard work and leadership role 13



### undertaken by the Administration and the EPA in 14


### publishing this Clean Power Plan, the proposed 15



### rule f orming a strong foundation for action. 16


### Flexibility can be used for each state's 17


### unique benefit, but I will recommend multistate 18


### cooperation, so that each state can benefit from 19


### even greater diversity of options. Multistate 20


### cooperation will increase rel iability and 21


### efficiency. I'll give more examples of that in a 22

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### minute. 1



### Overall, we believe the rule can be 2


### strengthened to better reach emissions reduction 3


### goals and increase economic development. I just 4


### came back from Nevada, where NV Energy is 5


### preparin g to document the economic development 6


### and jobs that will be created from 550 megawatts 7


### of new renewable energy. These projects will be 8


### built to replace 800 megawatts of retiring coal 9


### plants. Some of that development will be on 10



### Indian tribal lands and on federal properties, 11


### providing new source of revenues. 12


### The draft rule underestimates the strong 13


### role that renewable energy can play in all 14



### western states to reduce emissions. Renewable 15


### energy has grown at an astonishing rate, because 16



### of rich resources an d strong competition in 17


### healthy markets. These industries have been 18


### strengthened by federal and state policies which 19


### help increase market penetration and competition 20



### to drive down wind and solar cost to unforeseen 21



### lows. 22

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### Renewable energy competes on cos t basis 1


### now with gas and coal resources in Colorado. 2



### Long

- term stable price renewable energy contracts 3


### will repay Americans many times over for the cost 4



### of these incentives we have used to build these 5



### industries. 6


### Multistate agreements can reduce 7



### emission s more than the individual states could 8


### achieve by working independently. Several of the 9


### largest utilities serve more than one state, and 10


### they operate under several different state 11


### regulatory regimes. I'm thinking primarily of 12


### PacifiCorp and MidAmerican, Xcel Energy, and the 13


### cooperatives like Tri

- State. Consistency in 14


### sharing of benefits and opportunities between 15


### states can bring larger emission reductions at 16



### lower cost. 17


### Multistate agreements can provide more 18


### diverse options. Some states, like Wyomin g, are 19


### too far behind in their renewables development to 20


### move forward quickly, and they remain too 21



### dependent on coal resources. Therefore, at least 22

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### over the short term, a multistate agreement 1


### allowing some trading of different types of 2



### resources would be helpful. Wyoming and Utah 3


### should be working with Oregon and Washington. 4


### Colorado would be working with Wyoming and New 5


### Mexico. This will help ensure that the rule 6


### promotes economic development. All western 7



### states can benefit from flexible trade 8



### agreeme nts, and we can jointly provide protection 9


### for the important benefits we have promised these 10


### retiring mine workers. 11


### The EPA has underestimated the potential 12



### for growth of renewable energy. The rule should 13


### rely on resource availability, which has already 14


### been measured in each state, rather than basing 15


### its assumptions for renewables on renewable 16


### portfolio standards. Renewable portfolio 17


### standards are a floor, not a ceiling. They vary 18



### between states because they are dependent on 19


### political will, which is too often based on 20



### short

- term thinking. 21


### If we rely primarily on renewable 22

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### portfolio standards to establish the target for 1


### renewable energy penetration, we will miss 2


### ecnomic development opportunities. This rule can 3


### bring long

- term benefits and jobs. Renewa ble 4


### energy is already supporting 10,000 jobs in 5



### Colorado alone. 6


### Second, we have developed some policies 7


### in the West which can be used as good examples. 8


### For example, Xcel Energy has cut its carbon 9


### emissions by 31 percent from 2005 to 2020, by 10


### investing in renewable energy and energy 11


### efficiency and natural gas. Colorado's Clean 12


### Air, Clean Jobs legislation was a helpful tool. 13


### We made replacement power decisions based on 14



### least

- cost principles. Xcel Energy and the 15


### Public Utility Commission reduced costs bec ause 16



### they understood the long

- term savings in fuel 17


### price hedging benefits from renewable energy. 18


### Wind and solar energy in addition to natural gas 19


### found to be cheaper than just adding natural gas 20


### generation. 21


### Thank you for hearing me. 22

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### DR. HENDRYX: My nam e is Michael Hendryx. 1



### H

- e

- n

- d

- r

- y

- x. I am a professor in the School of 2


### Public Health at Indiana University. I would 3


### like to thank the EPA for responding to the issue 4


### of climate change and for recognizing the 5


### contribution that burning coal and other foss il 6


### fuels makes to climate change and to poor public 7


### health. However, the rule as proposed is 8


### incomplete and fails, in my view, for two 9



### interrelated reasons. 10


### First, it fails to recognize the public 11


### health problem created not only by fossil fuel 12



### combustion by also by the extraction, processing, 13


### and transportation of fossil fuels. Second, the 14



### proposed state

- specific emission goals provide 15


### insufficient weight to the contributions that 16


### renewable fuels must make to reducing climate 17


### change and adverse public he alth impacts. 18


### First, regarding the problem of 19


### extraction, processing, and transportation. Coal 20


### and natural gas do not simply appear at power 21


### plants, ready for use. Coal mining is itself a 22

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### highly polluting industry that uses fossil fuel

1


### based explosives and machinery, destroying 2


### landscapes, and fouling local air and water. 3


### Millions of tons of coal are transported using 4



### oil

- and diesel

- burning engines, in trucks, 5


### barges, and trains. Coal is processed at local 6


### facilities that generate water and air pollut ion. 7



### Over the past 8 years, my colleagues and 8


### I have published over 25 research papers, in 9



### peer

- reviewed journals, that document serious 10


### public health problems for people who live near 11


### coal mining and processing sites. People in 12



### these communities are m ore likely than those in 13



### non

- mining communities to suffer from cancer, 14


### heart and lung disease, and poor birth outcomes, 15


### including higher rates of birth defects. 16



### We have documented that residential 17


### communities near surface coal mining and 18


### processing sites have elevated levels of 19


### particulate matter in ambient air. The dust, 20



### collected from these residential areas, contains 21


### silica, metals, and compounds including 22

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### polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. In one study, 1



### we found that levels of ultra

- fine particulate 2



### m atter, collected from coal mining communities, 3


### was comparable to that found in large urban 4


### settings. Laboratory studies indicate that the 5


### particulate matter causes vascular dysfunction 6



### and promotes tumor

- like changes in human lung 7



### sounds. 8


### Second, regardi ng renewables. The 9


### proposed rule includes only modest goals for 10



### state

- specific renewable energy generation. My 11


### state of Indiana, for example, is expected to 12


### generate only 7 percent of its energy by 13


### renewables by the year 2029. Arizona, the state 14



### with en ormous solar potential, is expected to 15



### generate only 4 percent from renewables. In 16


### contrast, consider that Germany, today, provides 17


### as much as 50 percent of its country's 18


### electricity needs using solar power. 19



### In the absence of more ambitious but 20



### achieva ble renewable energy goals, the EPA's 21


### proposed rule will result in states continuing to 22

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### rely on coal, burned more efficiently, perhaps, 1


### and on increased use of natural gas. Burning 2


### coal more cleanly does nothing to address the 3


### pollution caused by coal min ing and the 4


### subsequent health problems created in mining 5



### communities. 6


### Increasing evidence also points to the 7


### highly occluding nature of natural gas 8


### extraction, especially in the form of hydraulic 9


### fracturing. To ignore the contributions to 10


### climate change and poor public health caused by 11



### fossil fuel extraction of both coal and natural 12


### gas is a serious oversight in the proposed rule. 13


### In conclusion, I applaud the EPA's 14



### efforts to address the problems caused by 15


### overreliance on fossil fuels. I urge the EPA t o 16


### increase the goals for renewables. I caution the 17


### EPA that we cannot simply replace coal with 18


### natural gas, or replace coal burned in dirtier 19


### plants with that same coal burned in slightly 20


### cleaner plants, without considering the climate 21


### change and public h ealth costs of the full 22

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### production cycle of these fuels

-- extraction, 1


### processing, transportation, combustion, and 2


### disposal

-- not simply the cost of their 3



### combustion. 4



### Thank you. 5


### MS. NOONAN: I have a question for each 6


### of you. Ms Hickey, you talked abou t that the 7



### renewable targets were too low. If you have 8


### additional information that you'd like to submit 9



### on what they should be, we would be happy to have 10



### this. 11


### MS. HICKEY: Glad to do it. Thank you. 12


### MS. NOONAN: And then Dr. Hendryx, if you 13



### have any of these 25 articles that you think 14


### would be to our benefit, please submit them for 15



### the record. 16



### DR. HENDRYX: I'll do that. Thank you. 17



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Mr. Nelson and 18



### Mr. Johnson? 19



### MR. NELSON: I want to thank the EPA for 20


### giving an opportunity to come and give testimony 21


### at this hearing. My name is Chuck Nelson, C

- h

- u

22

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### c

- k N

- e

- l

- s

- o

- n. I come from Boone County, West 1


### Virginia, in central Appalachia. I'm a retired 2


### underground coal miner. I'm a member of United 3



### Mine Workers Local 6608 in District 17 . I'm now 4


### a volunteer for the Ohio Valley Environmental 5



### Coalition. 6


### Rules that the EPA are proposing is a 7


### first step in moving forward to a clean energy 8


### policy. In order to have a good economic policy, 9


### one has to have a good environmental policy. 10



### They work hand in hand. You can't have one 11


### without the other. Renewable energy moves us 12


### away from the devastating impacts from the fossil 13


### fuel industry. One thing is certain, that all 14


### fossil fuels have a huge effect on our carbon 15


### footprint and have an enormo us effect on our 16


### public health. 17



### Our climate crisis, as we know it, 18


### continues to spiral out of control. I live where 19



### coal was founded, in the heart of central 20


### Appalachia. As a 30

- year underground veteran, a 21



### fourth

- generation coal miner, I lived daily w ith 22

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### the devastating impacts from coal. But not only 1


### are the coalfield communities impacted, it's all 2



### international communities that are now 3



### threatened. 4


### When looking at the impacts of coal, the 5


### entire death cycle of coal must be considered, 6



### from the extra ction to the cleaning to the 7


### transporting to the burning process, coal fuels 8


### on every cycle. According to the federal EPA and 9


### CDC, coal kills, on an average, 23,000 Americans 10


### each year from the emissions from coal

- fired 11



### power plants, and those same power plants emit 12


### enough mercury that it contributes to 640,000 13


### birth defects, such as autism, blindness, kidney 14



### and liver diseases. 15


### In Appalachia, our water and our air are 16


### among the nation's worst, and mining practices 17


### like mountaintop removal mining is the w orst 18


### environmental disaster happening anywhere in the 19



### world today. 20


### To make things even worse, our state 21



### regulatory agency has zero percent control over 22

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### mining regulations. In fact, they are 1


### spokespersons for the coal industry, than an 2



### agency that's supp osed to be enforcing the law. 3


### With now over 20 peer

- reviewed health studied 4


### completed about health issues from living near 5


### mountaintop removal sites, the practice still 6


### continues. But not only are people getting sick 7


### and dying, entire communities are bei ng swallowed 8


### up, depopulated, and bulldozed over like they 9



### never existed. 10


### Our politicians say that coal is the 11



### economic cornerstone of our state. I see it with 12


### many other as being more of a curse. Our 13



### communities and families were far better off 14


### prior t o the mining of coal. They talk about 15


### prosperity, but after 130 years of mining, we're 16


### still waiting for that prosperity to arrive. 17


### Coal mining has actually destroyed any 18



### economic future for the coalfields. The 19


### Appalachian Mountains are among the world' s 20


### oldest mountain ranges and are a treasure for all 21


### of us, but we're allowing them to be blown up for 22

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### dirty, filthy, temporary energy resources. 1


### The industry always referred to how coal 2


### is the cheapest form of energy. But when adding 3



### in all the externa l cost that they don't like to 4


### talk about, it is very expensive. We, the 5


### citizens, are paying the true cost of mining 6



### coal, with our health, with our lives, and with 7


### our environmental damages. We are not 8



### expendable. We are not collateral damage. We 9



### are somebody. No job, no paycheck is worth the 10


### cost that coal puts on society. Jobs aren't 11



### worth a crack on a dead plant. 12



### Like I said before, I think the rules are 13


### a good first step, but they need to be more 14


### aggressive. They need to be more aggressive on 15


### all fossil fuels. It's way past time to put 16


### policies

-- it's way past time and we need to put 17


### politics and greed aside, and act intelligently 18


### on combating the climate crisis, and for making 19



### the world a more healthier, sustainable future 20


### for all generation s that follow. Renewable 21


### energy is not an alternative. It's the next 22

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### thing, and with it, much more safer jobs, a 1


### healthier society, and a lot less impact on us 2



### all. 3


### My friend, Larry Gibson, always said, 4


### "Our mothers give us birth but the land gives us 5



### l ife." And a couple things I want to mention, on 6


### closing, is that we had some studies done by the 7


### USGS, a federal agency that came into the 8


### coalfields to do air quality tests and water 9


### quality tests, and they give a presentation to 10



### the communities, and thi s was pulled. The 11


### support for it and the funding was pulled for it, 12


### and it was influenced by our government 13



### officials. 14


### Another thing is that we have an act, or 15


### bill going through the House of Representatives 16


### right now. It's called the ACHE Act. It's 17


### called the Appalachian Community Health Emergency 18


### Act, which would help a lot of people in 19


### Appalachia. I advise all of you to go home and 20


### talk to your representatives, to get on board and 21


### be cosigners on the ACHE Act. It would help 22

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### people in Appalachia t remendously. 1


### Thank you for giving me the time. 2



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 3


### MR. JOHNSON: [Speaks Navajo.] 4


### My name is Marshall Johnson. I'm a 5


### member of To'Nizhoni Ani, a grassroots 6


### organization based on Black Mesa in northeast 7


### Arizona, on the Navajo Dine R eservation. I 8


### believe the EPA should be able to protect public 9


### health and save people, and this rule is a good 10


### start. However, I believe this rule does not go 11



### far enough. 12



### As EPA has said, the emission from the 13



### coal

- fired power plants is harming human health. 14


### This is something the Navajo Nation knows far too 15


### well, that emissions from the Navajo Generating 16



### Station and five other coal

- fired power plants in 17


### the region is harming tribal health. A host of 18


### respiratory illnesses plague those living on 19



### Black Mesa, from bronchitis, asthma, and black 20


### lung disease. 21


### But it is not just the coal

- polluted air 22

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### we breathe that is making us sick. Many people 1


### know that Peabody Coal mines coal on Black Mesa, 2


### but Peabody Coal is mining water, too, to supply 3


### its power p lant and mining activities. The 4


### Navajo Sandstone Aquifer, which underlies Black 5


### Mesa, is the sole source of drinking water for 6


### Black Mesa and the western Navajo Nation. Not 7


### only is our water depleted, desecrated, our 8



### water, air, and land is contaminated with all 9


### phases of coal use, from mining of the so

- called 10


### disposable coal ash, all this to supply the so

11



### called low

- cost energy for the state of Arizona. 12


### Arizona today is having trouble how to 13


### execute one criminal, but they and their 14


### corporations and trib al administrations and 15


### Barack Obama are lining my people's nation by 16


### Arizona's brutal savagery laws in a firing squad, 17


### gas chamber, extermination

- type execution, and 18


### not obligated of these EPA rules on our 19


### indigenous homelands, and we are the innocent 20



### part y. 21



### For this rule to be effective, EPA should 22

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### look at all stages of impacts of use of coal, 1


### other fossil fuels, nuclear power, for this all 2



### rolls into what comes out of the smokestack and 3


### flows into the waters and winds up in the bodies 4



### of humans and all d ivine creation. 5


### On June of 2012, founding member [speaks 6


### Navajo] Nicole Horseherder testified before a 7



### committee of the United States House of 8


### Representatives. She said, "The Navajo Nation is 9



### the size of Scotland. It is blessed with an 10



### abundance of reso urces that could provide the 11


### foundation necessary for a transition to 12



### renewable development. 13


### The Navajo Nation encompasses regions 14


### with ample wind, solar, and geothermal resources, 15


### along with the vast expanse of land, including 16


### large reclaimed mining tr acts, that is ideal for 17


### locating renewable energy facilities. The 18


### region's solar potential is some of the best in 19


### the world, and certain portions of the 20


### reservation lands have wind resource ratings 21


### capable of supporting utility

- scale projects." 22

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### My organi zation, To'Nizhoni Ani, insists 1


### on the transition to renewable energy sources 2


### such as solar and wind energy production for the 3



### health of the land, water, and air and the future 4


### generation. To reverse global warming, protect 5



### human health, and protect the p lanet, the EPA 6


### must do everything possible to advance in truly 7


### cleaner renewable energy. With the manmade laws 8


### by Arizona, while a child is grasping for clean 9


### air, it's business as usual to keep Navajo at 50 10



### to 60 percent unemployment and poverty level on a 11


### dying coal industry. So

- called jobs only 12



### benefits one

- third of 1 percent of our nation's 13


### population, the Navajo Nation. 14



### Thank you. 15



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Up next we have 16



### Robin Blakeman and James Dietz. 17


### MR. DIETZ: Good morning. My name is 18



### James D ietz. I'm the General Manager of Twin 19


### Valleys Public Power District, headquartered in 20


### Cambridge, Nebraska. We are a nonprofit utility 21


### that was formed by local people to bring 22

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### electricity to a rural area larger than the state 1



### of Rhode Island. We purchase d all of our 2


### electricity and I would like to say again we have 3


### no profit motive. We exist only to serve our 4



### customers. We serve ten small towns at retail, 5


### and we are responsible for getting power to every 6


### community in our service area, except one. 7



### Sinc e you probably haven't ever heard of 8


### our organization or any of the towns that we 9



### serve, why does our area matter? We produce the 10



### food that you eat and the fuel that you use. The 11


### fuel is ethanol and we serve some oil pumping 12


### loads. Electricity is import ant for both food 13



### and fuel. 14


### The Arab Oil Embargo of 1973 shocked the 15


### U.S. The electric utility industry is the only 16


### industry that has responded to please from both 17


### Democrat and Republican presidents over the years 18


### to reduce consumption of foreign oil. T oday, as 19



### I'm sure you know, almost none of U.S. 20


### electricity is generated with oil. The energy 21


### generated with oil was generally replaced with 22

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### coal. In Nebraska, this coal is all low

- sulfur 1



### coal from the Powder River Basin. Now, with the 2



### Administration's war on coal, will Nebraska be 3


### penalized for this movement towards using coal, 4



### our nation's most abundant fuel? 5


### Previously, I worked for a generating 6


### electric utility and was involved in construction 7


### of one of Nebraska's major coal

- fired power 8



### plants from design studies and on past commercial 9


### operation to correct some deficiencies. I was 10


### there at about 3 o'clock in the morning when it 11


### synchronized to the grid for the first time. 12


### Let me tell you what the thinking was at 13


### that time, the way I remember it. Our utility 14



### had an oil

- fired power plant that ran 24/7. 15


### Natural gas was being imported. Some local gas 16


### companies would not connect new homes because of 17



### concerns about future gas supply, and plans were 18


### being made to import liquefied natural gas to the 19



### U .S. In 1978, gas was banned from power plant 20


### boiler fuel. We thought we were on the side of 21


### the angels by building a coal

- fired power plant, 22

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### since coal was a domestic energy source. It had 1



### been used for over 200 years and had a stable 2


### price. 3



### Someone sa id, "That was then. This is 4


### now. It's time to shut down these plants." But 5


### this premature shutdown will be costly as these 6


### plants are still operating very efficiently. The 7


### plant where our utility receives most of this 8



### coal

- fired power has been called t he lowest

- cost 9


### power plant in the world. Maybe I should repeat 10



### that. We get power from the plant that's been 11



### called the lowest

- cost power plant in the world, 12



### of any fuel type. It currently meets all 13


### environmental regulations. 14


### But let me explain why I t hink it would 15


### be a real tragedy to shut these major plants down 16


### prematurely or reduce their generation output. 17


### The plants were built, yes, several years ago, 18



### some of them. The Nebraska utilities have 19


### invested in them over and over again, from a 20



### second ra il line into one plant that had to cross 21



### the South Platte River to achieve better coal 22

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### transportation contracts, to new baghouse 1


### emissions controls, to new water wells for backup 2


### cooling, and the investments continue. A new 3



### 220

- mile high voltage transmiss ion line is 4


### planned from one of these major coal

- fired power 5


### plants, and, in my opinion, when this line is 6


### placed in service, the state's transmission 7


### system will finally have caught up with the 8


### output of this major power plant. 9



### The plant that I worked on has just 10



### completed an 11

- mile long, 12

- inch natural gas 11


### pipeline to the plant. You might say that is 12


### good; now the plant can switch to gas, but the 13


### boilers are too massive. Natural gas will be 14



### used for boiler flame stabilization and for 15



### start

- up fuel. When they begin using it for 16



### start

- up, it will replace foreign oil that is 17


### used right now for start

- up. As you can see, the 18


### quest to discontinue oil continues. These plants 19


### keep being modernized because they are the 20



### lowest

- cost operating plants in the fl eet. 21


### The electric utility industry is the most 22

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### capital

- intensive industry there is. Any abrupt 1


### change in generation mix will cause rate 2



### increases. 3



### In Nebraska, we have millions of 4


### horsepower of electric power to irrigation 5


### pumping. The EPA says this pr oposal would 6


### increase electric rates. Irrigators switch fuel 7


### fairly easily, based on price signals. Where we 8


### have had natural gas available, some irrigators 9


### have switched from natural gas to diesel to 10


### electric over the years. 11


### MS. NOONAN: Sir, if you co uld submit the 12



### rest of your comments for the record, that would 13



### be wonderful. Thank you. 14



### MR. DIETZ: Okay. Thank you. 15


### MS. BLAKEMAN: Hello. Thank you for this 16


### opportunity to speak. My name is Robin Blakeman, 17



### R

- o

- b

- i

- n B

- l

- a

- k

- e

- m

- a

- n. I'm here today , as I 18


### was in D.C. on November 7, 2013, wearing three 19


### hats. One of that of a faith community leader, 20


### another is of an employee of the West Virginia

21


### based Ohio Valley Environmental Coalition, and 22

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### the third is that of an eighth

- generation 1


### southern West Virg inia resident and a mother. 2


### Why did I feel the need to travel all the 3


### way from West Virginia to Denver to attend this 4


### hearing? Because I want you to know that there 5


### are people in West Virginia and central 6


### Appalachia who totally support the EPA 7


### regulation s on new and existing coal

- fired power 8


### plants, and we hope you will implement them 9


### swiftly and go further. 10


### As a member of a Presbyterian faith 11


### community, I believe I am called to be a steward 12


### of God's good creation and to care for the most 13



### vulnerable popu lations in all communities, 14


### including West Virginia. To that end, I have 15


### joined a divestment movement within the 16


### denomination, seeking divestment of PCUSA's funds 17



### from fossil fuel entities over a 5

- year period of 18


### time, and that is in a study process right now, 19



### in the denomination. 20


### As a member of an organization which 21


### actively seeks to preserve clean air, water, and 22

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### equal justice for all citizens in West Virginia, 1



### I am here to urge the EPA to fully adopt and 2



### enforce strict standards for overall emission 3



### re ductions, while also working with states and 4


### utilities to prioritize shifting to truly 5


### renewable sources, like wind, solar, geothermal, 6


### and micro hydropower, all of which, I might add, 7


### exist in West Virginia. 8


### We need these instead of shifting to 9


### seemingly lower cost fossil fuels such as shale 10


### gas, which, in fact, has huge hidden costs at 11


### extraction sites and when burned. West Virginia 12


### is, by the way, being ravaged by both mountaintop 13


### removal coal mining and Marcellus Shale gas 14


### fracking, so I truly know th at neither of these 15



### fuel sources can ever be clean, as evidenced in a 16


### water contamination that happened last January, 17


### which polluted the water source for 300,000 18


### people, with a coal

- washing chemical. 19



### I also know that counties in West 20


### Virginia with the hig hest extractions of coal are 21


### the poorest. If the coal industry is trying to 22

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### make us rich, I wish they would stop. 1


### I urge EPA to move quickly with the final 2


### rules, so that the U.S. can take a first step to 3


### address the increasingly urgent problem of 4



### climat e change, which threatens mass extinctions 5


### of many species and the health and well being of 6


### existing human generations on earth, as well as 7



### future yet

- to

- be

- born ones. 8


### Since experts have drawn correlations 9


### between asthma rates and living near coal

- fired 10


### power plants, I want to conclude with some facts 11



### from a Department of Health and Human Resources 12


### report, published in West Virginia, titled "A 13


### Strategic Plan for Addressing Asthma in West 14


### Virginia." 15


### Asthma presents a significant challenge 16


### in West Virgin ia. Of the more than 22 million 17



### Americans who have asthma, there are over 31,000 18



### children, and over 123,000 adults in West 19


### Virginia who currently have asthma. In a state 20


### with only 1.8 million in population, this is a 21


### significant percentage who suffer fro m this 22

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### often

- devastating illness. 1


### The rate of asthma hospitalizations has 2


### more than doubled among seniors, age 65 and over, 3


### since 1996, and also West Virginia adult females 4


### are nearly twice as likely to have asthma, twice 5


### as likely to be hospitalized for asthma, and are 6


### significantly more likely to die from asthma than 7



### males. 8


### In short, from West Virginia's example, 9



### it seems clear to me that asthma

- related health 10


### effects of living near a coal

- fired power plant 11


### often cost people who can least afford it

-- 12



### c hildren, seniors, and women

-- far more than 13


### they can afford. We want choices in West 14


### Virginia, not just coal

- fired energy. There are 15


### also externalized costs to taxpayers when medical 16


### bills must be subsidized. Any delay in 17


### implementation of EPA regulati ons on coal

- fired 18


### power plants will not only intensify climate 19


### change effects but will also cost billions in 20


### health care and unnecessary human suffering. 21



### Thank you. 22

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### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. I'd like to 1


### thank all the speakers this morning, and now 2



### we're g oing to take a 10

- minute break and return 3


### to this room after that. Thank you. 4



### [Recess taken from 11:24 to 11:36 a.m.] 5



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you, everyone. 6



### Welcome back from the short break. The next 7


### folks up to speak will be Patricia Popple and Ken 8



### Schmi dt, and then on deck, if Heather Anderson 9



### and Kristen Pearce want to sit in the chairs 10


### behind the speakers, we'll be ready for them. 11


### And once again I'll just remind everyone 12



### to spell your name. Thank you. 13


### MS. POPPLE: I am Patricia Popple, P

- a

- t

14



### r

- i

- c

- i

- a P

- o

- p

- p

- l

- e, and I'm from Chippewa 15


### Falls, Wisconsin, and I'm presenting testimony 16


### about the huge impact the fossil fuel industry is 17


### having in Wisconsin. 18



### I am a retired educator, administrator 19


### turned citizen activist 6 years ago because of my 20



### great co ncern regarding the health and safety of 21


### the people I have been working with in Wisconsin 22

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### and elsewhere on the extraction of black sand, 1


### and on the grassroots level I've worked with many 2


### organizations and helped develop the Concerned 3


### Chippewa Citizens and the Save The Hills 4


### Alliance. I also print the Frac Sand Sentinel, 5


### distributed to over 2,000 people. Its 6


### facilitated networking and has had the impact of 7


### educating and mobilizing groups about issues 8



### related to non

- metallic mining. 9


### Many Wisconsinites are frantic and, 10


### frankly, angry about what is happening to them 11


### locally and statewide. They are fearful about 12



### the state's appearances as thousands of acres of 13



### 500 million

- year

- old sandstone and millions of 14



### tons of silica sand from our beloved hills are 15


### being knifed out of the landscape for the sole 16


### purpose of fracking natural gas and oil. 17


### Gigantic scabs, useless for productive farming, 18


### remain in their place. 19


### Most of all, health is being overlooked 20


### for the big money promises of the fossil fuel 21


### industry. I am speaking about frac sand mining 22

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### today because the EPA's proposed carbon pollution 1



### standards address only a small segment of the 2


### pollution issues faced in the fossil fuel 3


### industry. 4


### The precautionary principle states that 5


### when an activity raises threats of harm to human 6


### health or the environment, precautionary measures 7



### should be taken, even if some cause

- and

- effect 8


### relationships are not fully established, 9


### scientifically. Corporations, government 10


### agencies, and others should bear the burden of 11



### proof. Instead , it is left to the grassroots 12


### groups and individuals to fight for their own 13



### existence and that of their children and future 14


### generations. 15



### EIS's are not conducted in Wisconsin for 16


### this industry, despite the fact that studies have 17


### been requested statewide a nd federally. Why 18


### isn't the EPA and the DNR acting on behalf of the 19


### citizenry? Instead, the industry is encouraged 20


### and permitted to grow and expand by the very 21


### officials entrusted to protect the population. 22

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### The heavy industrial footprint of frac 1



### sand mi ning continues to grow exponentially. We 2



### have 135 active frac sand facilities and 94 3


### inactive but permitted, as of May 1st. Pollution 4


### knows no boundaries in this industry, and there 5


### are few limits in Wisconsin. Large dryers, 6



### fueled by natural gas, run c ontinuously to 7


### prepare for sand transport after it is washed. 8



### Trucks and rail cars, some uncovered, criss

- cross 9


### the state in huge numbers, day and night, often 10


### leaving remnants of their cargo behind, or 11



### dumped. 12



### I witnessed a street

- sweeper this past 13



### week , attempting to clean up the road in front of 14


### a mine, spewing forth vast dusts of clouds. I 15


### have personally witnessed industrial sludge, 16


### containing baghouse waste, clay cakes, and other 17


### waste, dribbling from trucks onto highways and 18



### left to dry there, to become fugitive dust, as 19



### the remainder of the load is carried back to the 20


### mines for reclamation purposes. 21


### An abandoned mine has huge piles of sand 22

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### with wind creating dust storms in a residential 1


### area. They were reported to air quality 2


### specialists; no one shows up. They say when wind 3


### speeds are up again, we may make a visit. 4


### Meanwhile, the people living nearby are guinea 5


### pigs in the storm because of the lack of 6



### standards in our state. In some locations, waste 7


### sand is being sold to farmers for cattle bed ding. 8


### Who is appointed to oversee the health of the 9



### farmer, or, for that matter, the health of the 10



### cattle? 11


### While plumes of invisible sand, blowing 12


### from mines and processing plants, are reported by 13


### tourists and others, layers of sand are invisible 14



### in th e heavy snows and on rooftops and cars. 15


### Blasting is common, creating huge volumes of 16



### dust, no restriction as to where facilities are 17


### constructed. The mining operations run 18


### continuously and the companies try to assure us 19


### that there is nothing to be concer ned about 20



### because there are no studies. 21


### This is happening in Wisconsin. It's an 22

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### industry gone wild. There are no hazardous 1


### warnings issued like they are in some places in 2


### Canada, even. Respirable crystalline silica dust 3


### is a proven carcinogen, eventual ly causing 4



### silicosis and other disease. No studies show 5


### that life is safe for those residing near or 6


### distant from the facilities. Despite our pleas 7



### to the EPA and the DNR, we are not heard. 8



### I have two asks, that the EPA visit 9



### Wisconsin to see the cond itions firsthand, and I 10


### also ask that frac sand mining be regulated under 11



### the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts. The EPA and 12


### the Wisconsin DNR have to get right and be held 13



### accountable for their actions. 14



### I have only offered you a few examples of 15



### some of the things going on, but we need to move 16



### to a self

- sustaining energy plan that will engage 17


### our country's people in productive work, 18


### designing new and efficient actions that will 19



### lead us into a healthier life for now and for 20


### future generations. 21



### Thank you. 22

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### MS . NOONAN: Thank you. 1



### MR. SCHMITT: I am Ken Schmitt. K

- e

- n S

2



### c

- h

- m

- i

- t

- t. My wife, Laura, and I both come 3


### from a long line of farmers, dating back to the 4


### 1800s, in Wisconsin. Along with our four 5


### children, ages 3 to 9, we raise grass

- fed beef in 6



### the we stern Chippewa County, Wisconsin. We now 7


### live in the southern edge of an industrial frac 8


### sand mining district, which extends north across 9


### the county line into Barron County. Prior to 10


### 2008, none of us dreamed that our agricultural 11



### area would ever be degra ded so much in 6 short 12



### years. 13



### Frac sand is needed to extract hard

- to

14


### reach natural gas and oil deposits, and is mined 15



### from sandstone that underlies much of Wisconsin. 16



### We now have more industrial sand mines in these 17



### two counties than existed in the enti re state 10 18



### years ago. 19


### The village of New Auburn straddles the 20


### county line. Within 7 miles of the village, 21



### there are more than 11 frac sand mines, with over 22

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### 3,000 acres permitted since mid 2011. Most of 1


### these are expected to expand in the next few 2



### years . There are also 4 frac sand drying plants 3


### within 4 miles of the village, with talk of 4


### possibly two more. All of these industrial frac 5


### sand facilities, totaling about 150 in Wisconsin, 6


### have received air permits from DNR, which acts as 7



### an enforcement agen cy for EPA under the Clean Air 8



### Act. 9


### DNR has permitted all of these facilities 10


### without considering fugitive dust sources in each 11


### facility in the permit, using the same 2.5

- micron 12


### ambient air rating, without counting cumulative 13


### impacts of multiple facilitie s or emissions in 14


### the transporting of the sand. No regulating 15


### agency in Wisconsin requires any monitoring for 16


### 2.5 particulate or crystalline silica, so no one 17



### knows what hazards citizens around these 18



### facilities face in Wisconsin. 19


### Is waiting for people to get sick from 20


### toxic air pollutants fulfilling either EPA or 21


### DNR's responsibility to protect citizens, as 22

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### required by the Clean Air Act? 1


### Many of these facilities also use well 2


### water for washing of the sand, degrading our 3



### fresh water resources and perman ently ruining 4


### many acres of very productive farmland. 5


### I believe this rule will simply trade 6



### environmental issues of coal for the 7


### environmental issues of natural gas, and further 8


### drive the destruction of farmland and degradation 9



### of fresh water in Wiscons in. This same 10


### degradation is occurring in areas where gas and 11


### oil is actually extracted, hydraulic fracturing. 12



### We, as a nation, need to dedicate substantial 13



### resources to the research and development of 14


### technology to store energy generated from wind 15



### and s olar on a large scale. If we can accomplish 16


### that, then we will be well on our way to moving 17


### past the fossil fuel age. 18



### Sooner or later, we need to move beyond 19


### fossil fuels, because they are a finite resource. 20



### Wouldn't it be better to do it on our timetab le 21



### rather than a resource's timetable? We are 22

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### wrecking far to much of our productive arable 1


### farmland and clean fresh drinking water in this 2


### country, to get the last bit of fossil fuels. 3


### Humans have gotten along without oil and 4



### gas for thousands of year s, but we can't survive 5



### without food and drinkable water. How short

6


### sighted can we be? What kind of legacy are we 7


### leaving for our children and grandchildren? 8



### That was a speech I prepared. As I 9


### listened to the 5 to 6 hours of testimony between 10



### yesterday and today, I've had a few more 11



### thoughts. I don't know

-- I might screw up the 12


### other one by talking about it, but we're going to 13



### try. 14



### I know much of what I said did not 15


### directly relate to carbon. However, to just look 16



### at the carbon is much too narrow of a view. EPA 17


### must consider all of the negative impacts of each 18


### avenue, such as the frac sand mines in my state, 19



### serious issues at the frac sites, et cetera. If 20


### you do, you will realize how important it is to 21


### move beyond fossil fuels. They are finite. 22

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### A s a farmer, one of the few that I've 1


### heard in those 5 or 6 hours of hearings, I cannot 2


### stress enough the importance of preserving good 3



### arable farmland and good water resources. The 4



### human risk cannot and will not survive without 5



### both of these. 6



### And there w as a quote in yesterday's 7


### hearing. I'd heard it once before and I swore 8


### I'd never forget it, but I had, but I'm going to 9


### repeat it because it needs to be repeated. "The 10


### end of the Stone Age did not end because we ran 11



### out of stones." 12



### Thank you. 13



### MS. NOON AN: Thank you both. Heather 14


### Andersen and Crispin Pierce, and on deck, Susan 15


### Ringdahl and Rosalynn [ph] Bower, if you'd like 16


### to take the seats behind the speakers. 17


### MS. ANDERSEN: My name is Heather 18



### Andersen. Heather, H

- e

- a

- t

- h

- e

- r, Andersen, A

- n

19



### d

- e

- r

- s

- e

- n. Thanks for allowing us to testify 20


### at this hearing. 21



### I live within a radius of 50 miles of 40 22

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### of these frac sand facilities. Silica sand, also 1


### known as frac sand, is used in the hydrofracking 2


### industry. This sand, mixed with chemicals, keeps 3



### the f issures open underground and allows for the 4


### production of oil and natural gas. With this 5


### rule, the EPA has expressed interest in 6


### protecting citizens' health. However, emissions 7



### from smokestacks of coal

- powered plants are only 8



### a small part of what needs t o be addressed. In 9


### my area of Wisconsin, citizens have been fighting 10


### to protect their health, safety, and welfare from 11


### the frac sand industry. 12


### In the testimony that was presented, 13


### there has been discussion of pollution from 14


### industries using fossil fuels, the science of 15


### numbers and graphs. However, what's lacking in 16



### these testimonies are the voices and the faces of 17


### children, of people who live in these towns. My 18


### focus is going to be giving a face and a voice to 19


### the citizens living near these sand mines, these 20


### industries, especially those living in and near a 21


### small village of New Auburn, Wisconsin, 22

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### approximately 554 people. I'll relay these 1


### stories in hopes that you don't forget the 2


### ordinary citizens that are affected, and will be 3


### forever affected by this frac sand mining. 4


### More than 900 diesel trucks go through 5


### this small village in a 10

- hour day. The 6



### citizens hear, smell, and see these trucks, and 7



### there is the sand that falls from these trucks, 8



### the sand that comes from, that's layered on the 9



### streets, un swept sand coating not only the 10


### streets but all aspects of their lives. A woman 11


### of the village stopped a man in charge of one of 12


### the plants and showed him the white rag that she 13



### uses to wash down her clotheslines. It was black 14



### from diesel fumes. The man turned to her and 15


### just frankly stated, "Get a clothes dryer like 16


### everyone else. Stop complaining." 17


### A family has to move their master bedroom 18


### from the upstairs into their basement because of 19



### the sound of 100

- plus railroad cars, coupling and 20


### uncoupling th roughout the night. They can no 21


### longer sleep with their windows open and listen 22

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### to the sounds of a summer night, smell the fresh 1


### air. In place of it, they have to smell diesel 2



### fuel. They have to hear the sounds that the 3


### coupling and uncoupling of the th ese cars make. 4


### The hear the heavy industrial equipment that 5


### doesn't stop at night. 6



### And then, I've spoken about the dust. 7


### There's always dust. There's dust covering 8


### homes, covering clean clothes that are hanging on 9


### a clothesline, clogging screens, movin g a child's 10


### outdoor birthday picnic indoors because in the 11


### short time that the mom has set the plates on the 12


### table they were covered with sand, the dust from 13


### the mining industry. 14


### A teacher and his wife pulled their 15



### children out of a local school because o f their 16


### concern for the silica dust from a facility just 17


### blocks from that school. The filtration system 18


### in the school had to be upgraded. The upgrading 19


### of the filters certainly may have protected the 20


### students inside the school, but it didn't protect 21



### the students that are outside of the school. The 22

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### school board was offered monitoring at no cost, 1


### but they refused that. This family no longer 2


### lives in their house. They walked away from it 3


### after living in it for 10 years. 4



### Lastly, a short story about two brothers, 5


### one a mining engineer, the other a mathematician, 6



### who grew up on a farm near a wetland refuge, 7


### playing, fishing, exploring, and dreaming, as 8


### boys will do, growing to love these acres of 9


### wetland and the biodiversity it presents. The 10



### wetlands were losing it. Now, the mining 11


### companies have put in plants and filled in the 12


### wetlands, polluting the streams. The dreams of 13


### future generations of young boys are now 14



### destroyed. 15



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 16



### MS. ANDERSEN: Yes. Thank you. 17



### DR. PIERCE: Good morn ing and thank you 18


### for this opportunity. I'm Dr. Crispin Pierce. 19



### That's C

- r

- i

- s

- p

- i

- n P

- i

- e

- r

- c

- e. I'm a 20


### toxicologist, associate professor, and program 21


### director of the Environmental Health Program at 22

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### the University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire. My 1



### credentia ls include 15 peer

- reviewed 2


### publications, 44 scientific presentations, and 3


### designation as a Fulbright Scholar. 4



### I traveled 1,000 miles from Wisconsin 5


### today to make two points. The first is that all 6


### fossil fuel use causes health impacts, whether 7



### we're ta lking about carbon pollution or we're 8


### talking about frac sand extraction and use. The 9


### second is that I fully support the EPA's 10



### initiative to lower the CO2 levels, because this 11


### is so closely tied to human health effects, costs 12


### to our society, and actually cost on private 13



### property, as well. 14


### Greenhouse gas emissions, as we know, are 15


### warming our planet. In Wisconsin, we're seeing 16


### longer time periods for Lyme disease to be spread 17


### through ticks, more breeding habitat for 18


### mosquitoes to carry West Nile Virus. W e had a 19



### very costly loss of a place called Lake Delton 20


### several years back, with heavy flooding and 21


### raining. We're concerned about the emerald ash 22

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### borer. We're concerned about warming trout 1



### streams in Wisconsin. All of these are 2



### associated with the use a nd burning of coal in 3



### Wisconsin. Coal, in addition, as we know, 4


### pollutes with mercury, so we had fish advisories 5


### for every lake in Wisconsin, for pregnant women. 6



### So coal is a real concern for us in Wisconsin. 7



### More recent energy source, we've talked a 8



### li ttle bit about today is hydraulic fracturing. 9



### Frac sand removal, there will be 26 million tons 10


### of frac sand taken out of Wisconsin this year, 11


### and part of that, during the excavation process, 12


### very fine particulates called PM2.5 are left 13



### behind or emitted a s part of the mining, 14


### transporting, loading process. 15



### Our state

- regulated Wisconsin Department 16


### of Natural Resources is requiring less than 10 17


### percent of the 135 facilities to monitor air 18


### quality, and even then they're asking for the 19


### larger PM10, which is m uch less closely 20



### associated with health effects as the PM2.5, 21



### which is associated with cardiovascular disease, 22

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### lung cancer, and premature death. 1


### To address the important concern that 2


### I've outlined, our research team has been doing 3


### independent testing of a ir quality around frac 4


### sand mines for the last 5 years, and what we see 5



### is an elevation in the levels of fine 6


### particulates in communities around frac sand 7


### facilities. In order to buy EPA

- certified 8


### equipment and compare with EPA standards for 9



### PM2.5, we've now turned to public crowdsource 10


### funding. 11


### I brought with me today one of our 12



### instruments. This is the DustTrak II, and I want 13


### to show how it's useful, particularly as a 14


### measurement of the particulates in frac sand 15


### mining, so I've asked my wife to come h elp with 16



### this demonstration. 17


### Air quality outside today is about 9. 18



### The EPA standard is 12. So even after the rain 19



### in our urban environment, we have substantial 20



### levels. I'm happy to say that as we look at the 21


### levels here in this building, they are 0 or 1, so 22

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### there's actually an excellent ventilation system 1


### in the EPA building here, which is good news. 2



### I also have vials of the full

-- this is 3



### the full natural sand, I call it. This is 4


### freshly mined sand, and then this is the frac 5


### sand after it's been pro cessed. When I open up 6


### the processed vial here

-- actually, I turn it 7


### upside down

-- we'll look to see if there's much 8


### particulate matter generated. We look here and 9


### we see essentially no change, and that's because 10


### the frac sand particles are the much la rger 11


### particles that are taken away from Wisconsin. 12



### However, when we look at the full, the 13


### sandstone, the freshly mined sand, we turn this 14


### upside down here, we see that the levels are 15


### going to be quite higher. In this case, 164, 16



### 294, 160, so several hundr ed times higher than 17


### the background level, and 10 to 15 times higher 18


### than EPA standard. That is why monitoring around 19


### frac sand facilities and hydraulic fracturing 20


### operations is essential to protect public health. 21


### Even knowing that this rule that I 22

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### whole heartedly support to reduce coal

- fired 1


### generation of CO2, even knowing that if this rule 2


### goes through it will likely result in more frac 3


### sand mining in Wisconsin, even knowing that I 4


### want to fully support this initiative, climate 5


### change is so, so closely a ssociated with human 6


### health effects, costs to our society, private 7



### property damage. So I want you to know, although 8


### we're doing this research, we see there are 9


### concerns, we fully believe, I fully support the 10



### EPA's initiative. 11



### All the uses of fossil fue l for energy, 12


### whether we're talking about coal, oil, tar sands, 13



### or methane, natural gas, cause health effects. 14


### The proposed CO2 reductions take a big, important 15


### first step, as we talked also about things like 16


### carbon mitigation fees and renewable energy, i n 17


### protecting human health, our costs, and private 18



### property. 19



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you both very much. 20


### Rosalynn Bauer and Susan Ringdahl? 21


### MS. RINGDAHL: Hi. My name is Susan 22

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### Ringdahl. My last name is spelled R

- i

- n

- g

- d

- a

- h

1


### l. Today I'm speaking in favor o f the Clean 2


### Power Plan. I don't always understand politics, 3


### and I don't understand why our well being and why 4



### our clean

-- you know, why we should have to 5


### fight for clean air or clean water, and why we 6


### should have to sacrifice our well being. It 7



### doesn't make sense to me that this is all a 8


### question. I don't understand why we have to 9


### fight for this kind of thing. I think we all 10



### share this world, so we all have the 11


### responsibility to take care of it, and do our 12



### part. 13


### You know, I think that we're supposed t o 14


### love it and we're supposed to do our part to take 15


### care of it, no matter what that is, so that's why 16


### I think it's really important that this rule gets 17


### passed, because it's the least we can do. You 18


### know, it's the least we can do in taking a step 19



### forward a nd reducing, or slowing down climate 20



### change. 21


### MS. BAUER: Hi. My name is Rosalynn 22

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### Bauer. The last name is spelled B

- a

- u

- e

- r. I'm 1



### here to speak to support the Clean Power Plan. 2


### My personal background is I have a degree in cell 3


### biology. I have a Ph.D. i n cell biology, and I 4


### chose that path because I wanted to improve human 5


### health, whether it be through expanding our 6


### knowledge about human health or finding 7


### medications, and that was something I did. I 8



### worked in research until I found out I was 9


### pregnant wi th twins. 10



### And I now have two, almost 4

- year

- old 11


### twins, and my world has changed a lot since 12


### having children. The decisions I make on a day

13



### to

- day basis are drastically different from what 14


### it was like before I had kids. It really comes 15


### down to everythi ng they put in their mouth, I 16


### have to think about. The food they put in their 17


### mouth, I think about. The water that they put in 18


### their mouth, I think about. The air that they 19



### breathe, I think about. I have to think about 20



### where we live, because I wonder w hether the air 21


### that we're breathing is harming them, and whether 22

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### the water that we're drinking is harming them. 1


### And my boys have had to grow up with a 2


### completely different type of childhood than I 3


### grew up with. I tell them things like, they want 4



### to ride to the coffee shop in the car, and I tell 5


### them, "We can't ride to the coffee shop in the 6


### car, because every time we get in the car to ride 7


### to the coffee shop, the world gets a little bit 8


### hotter. Every time you run the water to wash 9



### your hands, the longer you keep it on, the world 10


### gets a little bit hotter and the animals die." 11



### And this makes them sad, and it's a sad 12



### world that we have come into, that I have to 13


### raise my kids and tell them that the world is 14


### getting hotter, and the animals are going to die, 15


### and they are dying. 16


### And I think about, now, going back to my 17


### job in research, and it doesn't seem like the 18


### right thing to do anymore. I feel like it's a 19


### matter of putting a Band

- Aid on, when we're 20


### solving health problems that are caused by things 21



### that we do, that we can prevent, that we have the 22

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### technology to prevent today, but we choose not 1


### to. But this plan is a good start. It doesn't 2


### go far enough, but it's a good start. 3


### So that's why I'm speaking in support of 4


### it, because we need to do something, and we need 5


### to do it now, before things get worse. They're 6



### already bad enough. So we have the technology, 7



### so let's do it. 8



### Thank you. 9



### MS. NOONAN: Next up we have Anne Cohan 10



### and Rich Andrews. Is Rich Andrews in the room? 11



### Okay. 12


### MS. COHAN: Hi. My na me

-- my name is 13



### Anne Kelly Cohan, and I'm here repre

--- 14



### MS. NOONAN: Spell your name. Spell. 15



### MS. COHAN: Oh, all of them? A

- n

- n

- e K

16



### e

- l

- l

- y C

- o

- h

- a

- n. Spell

- check always corrects 17



### it to E

- n, so be careful of that. I'm here 18


### representing myself, my chi ldren, my 19


### grandchildren, and all of your children, 20


### grandchildren, and even those not yet born. 21


### As a child growing up in New York City, 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### I'm old enough to remember the coal trucks 1


### rumbling down the street, and they would come and 2


### use a shoe to dump coal i nto our cellar. I also 3


### remember, as a very small children, how dirty the 4


### house would get, and my mom would be dusting it 5



### every day, because of the black soot that was on 6



### the furniture. And then we'd, of course, shake 7


### the rag outside. And as a small chil d, I never 8


### realized that we were part of the problem, that 9


### it wasn't just the dirty street or the cars 10


### rolling by, but it was the fact that we were 11


### using coal to heat our house. 12


### I lived through the hippie years, as some 13


### of you in here did, and we thought we were going 14


### to change the world, and then came along Jimmy 15


### Carter, who really understood what was going on, 16


### that we needed to stop driving the Cadillacs and 17


### stop being less dependent on fossil fuels. But 18


### then he didn't get reelected and we elected some 19



### P ollyanna presidents who, you know, growth in 20


### industry, and I know that's good, because I was 21


### part of the problem, too. I didn't have a 22

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### Cadillac, but I know I was a part of the problem. 1


### Then I moved to the Florida Keys and I 2


### lived there for 40 years, and we had such clean 3


### air coming off the ocean and the bay, and we swam 4


### in clean waters, and yet, there I was, using my 5


### septic tank to fill the limestone with waste. 6


### And it got into the surrounding waters, of 7



### course, and into our canals, and, of course, into 8


### the surrounding ocean waters, too. So, 9


### fortunately, the Keys are now all converting to 10


### toilets and sewers rather than the septic tanks, 11


### and I hope it will be soon enough. 12


### Now I live in Denver, a place once known 13


### for its clean air, so clean that people wo uld 14



### come from around the country and around the world 15


### to sit on porches and breathe in that wonderful 16


### clean air. It's raining today so you can't see 17



### it, but there's often a terrible haze over this 18


### clean, once clean city, and it comes from fossil 19



### fuels. 20



### Yes, I have been part of the problem, but 21



### I had a husband with COPD, and I watched how hard 22

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### it was for him to breathe. He grew up in New 1


### York City, too, breathing in the coal dust. Then 2


### he became a firefighter, and God only knows what 3



### he breathed in, the plastics and the chemicals, 4


### fighting fires, and I watched how hard it was for 5



### him to breathe. 6


### Please, EPA, pass this plan. I support 7


### this plan. I support everything and anything you 8



### can do to reduce our need for fossil fuels, and 9


### fracking, I'm not even going to go there. It 10



### would take me another 20 minutes. 11



### Thank you. 12


### MR. ANDREWS: My name is Richard Andrews. 13


### I live in Boulder County, Colorado. What other 14


### information do you need? 15



### MS. NOONAN: Spell your name. Spell your 16



### last name. 17



### MR. ANDREWS: My last name is Andrews, A

18



### n

- d

- r

- e

- w

- s. I'm a citizen of this country and 19


### I'm glad to have the opportunity to testify here 20


### today. I'm also the owner of Boulder Innovative 21


### Technologies, which is an environmental 22

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### engineering company, and that is my backgro und, 1


### chemical and environmental engineering. I've 2


### worked in the nuclear industry. I also was an 3


### EPA employee in this very office, in the early 4



### '70s. So those are kind of credentials. 5


### I'm here to testify on an element of 6



### these proposals that have to do with nuclear 7


### power, being, according to EPA, an acceptable 8



### alternative to fossil fuel

- fired electric 9


### generation, and I can say, categorically, that is 10


### an unacceptable alternative to even consider. 11


### EPA has clearly not done any decent risk 12



### assessment in mak ing that decision to promote 13


### that and encourage states to promote it in their 14


### implementation plants. 15


### I prepared testimony in very much detail, 16


### given that I am an environmental engineering, 17


### certified and registered in this state, on air 18


### pollution modeling, from an accident or a 19


### terrorist event at a nuclear power plant. I used 20


### the Indian Point nuclear plant, just north of New 21


### York City, just a matter of 30

- some miles from 22

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### downtown Manhattan, as a case study. That 1


### modeling used exactly the same modeling met hods 2


### that is used by the Nuclear Regulatory 3


### Commission, and probably, in part, by the EPA, in 4


### doing radiological dispersion modeling and health 5


### consequence studies. That work and that modeling 6



### that I conducted showed that an event

-- and the 7


### primary event that I looked at was an attack by 8


### terrorists on the spent fuel disposal, really not 9


### disposal but storage facility at that location 10



### for Unit Number 2. 11



### In such an event, the entire area of all 12


### of New York City, major parts of New Jersey, 13



### Delaware, all the way down to nearly 14


### Philadelphia, would, in fact, have to be 15


### evacuated. Keep in mind that is the financial 16


### center of this country, and we're not only 17


### talking about evacuated but permanently put out 18



### of habitable condition, and that is because of 19



### the extrem e amount of Cesium

- 137 that would 20



### contaminate that area. 21


### I used this as an example. I submitted 22

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### this information to the Nuclear Regulatory 1


### Commission in December of last year, as part of 2


### what they call their Waste Confidence draft, 3



### GEIS. I have with me some of the dispersion 4


### modeling maps that I will submit in detail, in 5


### writing, as part of this testimony. 6


### The bottom line is take out any 7



### encouragement, out of your rules and your 8



### proposed methods to reduce carbon, any use of 9


### nuclear power. It is simply unsafe, it is 10


### economically unreasonable, as well, and it is too 11


### great a risk to put the American public at. 12



### And I ask the EPA

-- are you willing to 13



### take that risk? Terrorists

-- despite anything 14



### that our government does at the Department of 15



### Defense, th e Department of Homeland Security, the 16


### private security services at nuclear power 17


### plants, there is no way to stop such an attack. 18


### They can do it any time, any place they choose 19



### to. You may want to deny that, but I have to say 20


### if you're denying it, you've got your head in the 21



### sand. 22

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### So please do not, in any way, promote 1


### nuclear power as a safe, certainly not a 2


### renewable, certainly not an environmentally 3


### responsible means to meet carbon reduction. 4



### Thank you. 5


### MS. NOONAN: Thank you, and if you could 6



### submit your modeling for the record, there's 7


### information on how to do that, or you could just 8


### drop off the information. 9



### MR. ANDREW: I know how to do it. I've 10


### done these things many times, and just hope you 11


### pay heed to it, because it is

-- I consider it

-- 12



### I m ean, I did it myself, and, of course, I 13


### consider it valid, but I hope your scientists 14



### will look at it, too, and take heed. 15



### MS. NOONAN: Great. Thank you very much. 16


### Okay. Coming up next we have Eva Neligh and Jean 17



### Bassett. I'm sure I've butchered at le ast one of 18


### those names. I apologize. And then on deck, 19


### Tatiana Maxwell and John Bullinger, if you'd like 20


### to sit at the speaker's table, in the seats 21


### behind the speaker's table. 22

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### MS. NELIGH: Hi. I'm Eva Neligh, N

- e

- l

1



### i

- g

- h. All right. Thank you for ha ving me 2


### testify today. 3


### Oh beautiful for spacious skies, for 4


### amber waves of grain, for purple mountain 5


### majesties above the enameled plain. Everyone 6


### knows these lyrics, written over a century ago. 7


### If we don't do something about air pollution, 8



### we'll be sin ging a different tune. 9


### For years, we inhaled the unfathomable 10


### sense of moral responsibility to ourselves and 11



### the land we lived on, and exhaled and 12


### internalized its purpose to us, individually. 13


### This is an American dream, and the path we follow 14



### now does no t lead to such a vision. We will have 15


### fewer spacious skies and, instead, skies filled 16


### with smog that blanket our mountain majesties. 17



### The new world

-- what do you think of 18


### when you consider these words? Serenity? Grace? 19


### Clarity? Beauty? Nature untouc hed by the 20


### fingers of man? What would the Founding Fathers 21


### say to us now, as we continue to steamroll new 22

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### and bright initiatives to protect our land and to 1


### protect this American dream? 2



### The United States of America was not 3


### founded upon the belief that its people live with 4


### little innovation and no way to uphold the health 5


### and happiness of its citizens. We should not 6



### close the doors to alternative sources of 7


### renewable clean energy. America should be at the 8


### forefront of technological improvement. The 9



### inter national community should look to us to lead 10


### the way to prosperity and progress, and not the 11



### other way around. 12



### I support the Clean Power Plan. I work 13


### for Environment Colorado, and I basically

-- I've 14


### been to a lot of towns with my family. We love 15



### to tra vel around the United States, and I've seen 16


### a lot of people work in power plants, not because 17


### they want to but because there is no other 18



### alternative for solar or wind, for that matter, 19


### because it's a dog

- eat

- dog world for those 20


### renewable energy industries. 21


### So with that in mind, I want to give a 22

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### face for youth and for students across the world, 1


### or, I guess, across the nation, for that matter, 2


### who live next to these power plants. And I've 3


### met scores of students and kids, ranging from 3 4



### years old to 15 years old, who have asthma 5


### attacks and who have to visit the emergency room 6


### almost, I guess, on a regular basis. It's not 7


### fair. It's not fair to us as kids, as the youth 8



### of this nation, and it's not fair for future 9


### generations. 10



### With that in mind, I do not co me to you 11


### as a professional in the coal or renewable energy 12


### industry, but I appeal to you as a concerned 13


### citizen and a youth, because this is not a 14


### problem for the future. This is a problem for 15



### now. 16


### I am 19 years old and I will graduate 17



### college next year with degrees in international 18


### affairs and economics. I plead with you to take 19



### initiative and dare to consider what we could do 20


### when we open new doors to American citizens, to 21


### the next generation, and let us glimpse a world 22

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### not too dissimilar to the one w e live in now, but 1


### with more job diversity, competitive markets, 2


### innovation, and, we hope, the certainty that our 3



### health will not be sacrificed in the name of 4


### laziness and fear from change. 5



### Thank you. 6



### MS. BASSETT: Thank you very much. My 7



### name is Jean B assett. The last name is spelled B 8


### as in boy

- a

- s

- s

- e

- t

- t. I'm here as the next 9


### generation, as a mother, and just my concern for 10



### the future of the planet. And I have seen, from 11


### the testimonies I've heard about in the last day 12


### and a half, just the range o f people who 13


### understand the magnitude of what we're facing 14


### right now with climate change. And when you have 15


### religious leaders joining scientists, joining 16


### farmers, joining people from diverse ethnic 17



### backgrounds

-- you don't see that very often, 18



### that everyo ne is on the same page, and saying 19


### that this is something we have to address, and we 20



### need to do it now. 21


### So I'm actually just keeping my

-- you 22

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### guys have heard a lot of testimony, and my 1


### testimony is actually very short. I'm just here 2



### to say that I applau d the EPA for proposing the 3


### Clean Power Plan. This is exactly where we need 4


### to be heading, to be responsible in addressing 5


### this issue, and I just wanted you to make sure 6


### you note that the range of the diversity of the 7


### constituents who are support this. Y ou don't see 8


### that very often in our country, where you get 9


### scientists with the religious leaders, all on the 10


### same page. So it shows you that this is the 11


### right step to take and we need to do it now. 12



### Thank you. 13



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. Up next we 14



### hav e Tatiana Maxwell and John Bollinger. 15



### MS. MAXWELL: Good afternoon and thank 16


### you for this opportunity to speak. My name is 17


### Tatiana Maxwell, which is spelled T

- a

- t

- i

- a

- n

- a, 18



### the last name is Maxwell, M

- a

- x

- w

- e

- l

- l. I am 19


### here as a private citizen and the m other of four. 20


### I currently live in Boulder, Colorado, but was 21


### born and raised in Wyoming, and spent most of my 22

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### life there. I'm the daughter and wife of 1


### military veterans and I'm the sister, aunt, and 2


### cousin of many who work for and benefit from the 3



### energ y industry. I, myself, have worked and been 4



### an owner of a petroleum company for over 20 5


### years, and owe much of my livelihood to it. 6



### I've also been personally affected by 7


### climate change

-- more frequent drought and 8


### extreme temperatures, more intense and frequent 9



### wildfires, more intense rainstorms, and reduced 10


### snowpack and water scarcity. Our company, which 11


### was based in New Orleans, and its employees were 12


### deeply affected by Hurricane Katrina in 2005. 13



### I am not here to debate the science and 14



### consequence s of climate change. The world's 15


### scientists and military analysts agree that 16



### carbon emissions are a serious threat to our 17



### future and must be addressed. I am here to add 18


### my voice to those who are asking the EPA to 19


### finalize its proposed Clean Power Plan an d to 20



### applaud the agency's work. 21


### The very mission of the Environmental 22

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### Protection Agency is heroic, to protect human 1


### health and the environment, and nothing could be 2


### more important. I have lived and traveled in 3



### countries that have weak or non

- existent 4



### g overnment programs to protect their citizens and 5



### their environment, and it is obvious to me that 6


### this protection is vital to our lives and to our 7


### economy. I've experienced the challenges of 8


### abiding by environmental regulations in our 9



### company, and I have s een the benefit from their 10


### existence, as did our employees. 11


### These are not simple equations, but the 12



### futures of all our children are at stake. Power 13



### plants are the number one source of carbon 14


### pollution in the U.S. and must be regulated for 15



### the benefit of all our citizens. But we must 16


### also pay attention to the emissions created by 17


### drilling for natural gas and fracking. For many 18


### years, I have lived and recreated near the 19


### Pinedale Anticline in northwest Wyoming, one of 20


### the five largest natural gas fields in the U.S. 21


### I have watched as an area of striking natural 22

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### beauty, with a population of less than 2,500, has 1


### suffered from air pollution equivalent to that in 2


### Los Angeles, due to the drilling of natural gas. 3


### We are a world that progresses, and while 4



### I respe ct the needs and desires of those who 5



### consider their livelihoods tied to the lack of 6


### air quality regulations, progress and industry 7



### will find new avenues for their skills, much as 8


### the wheelwrights for the horse and buggy found 9


### new work building wheels for Henry Ford's 10



### automobiles. 11



### We all have much in common in this 12



### country. We share common dreams for health and 13


### prosperity, and the Clean Power Plan is a 14


### tremendous opportunity to move forward in that 15


### pursuit. 16



### I drive a car and I want to breathe clean 17



### air. I want turn on the lights in my house and 18



### see the mountains in the distance, and clean air 19


### regulations are elemental to all of our 20


### prosperity, and I encourage the agency to 21



### continue with it. 22

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### MR. BOLLINGER: I'm John C. Bollinger. 1



### John, J

- o

- h

- n, Bollinge r, B

- o

- l

- l

- i

- n

- g

- e

- r, from 2


### Lafayette, Colorado. I have a consulting 3


### company, ECE Engineering Services, specializing 4


### in energy efficiency analysis and mechanical 5


### engineering consulting, including DSM, demand 6


### side management. 7



### By the way, I happened to al so work at 8


### the US EPA, near Research Triangle Park, just a 9


### mere 35 years ago, so it's nice to be back here 10


### in the fold for a slight few seconds. And, also, 11


### I'm definitely a concerned father. Us fathers, 12



### you've got to assume that we're concerned because 13



### w e don't say it. 14



### So, I know we have only about a half 15


### million comments, so I'll try to be direct and 16



### brief. 17


### Overall, think the Clean Power Plan has some very 18


### good aspects in its limited scope, not that it's 19


### not very detailed, but there are important things 20


### that I think must go further to achieve long

- term 21


### benefits. There are three main points here, but 22

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### I do acknowledge short

- term or even longer term, 1


### the plan can reduce atmospheric carbon, 2


### greenhouse gases, you know, the criteria of air 3


### pollutants, which y ou know what those are

-- 4


### particularly nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxide, 5



### carbons, et cetera

-- by means of gradually 6


### replacing the coal

- burning with natural gas power 7



### plants. 8


### That part is clear and good. I praise 9


### that. There are some inherent, serious p roblems, 10



### as I see it, that I'd like to address, that can 11



### be exacerbated by the Clean Power Plan, and could 12


### potentially override the intended benefits. 13


### First, the greenhouse gas emissions could 14


### potentially and actually increase this plan, the 15



### Clean Power P lan, laid in power plants. Fugitive 16


### methane emissions are not yet accurately measured 17


### in regards to whole lifecycle atmospheric 18


### emissions. Is it 3 percent? Nine percent? It 19


### makes a big difference, of the total gas 20


### production. 21


### The total cycle is the ex traction, the 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### distribution, the processing, and the final 1


### combustion, not just the combustion at the power 2


### plant, which I think the Clean Power Plan 3



### concentrates on, from what I know. And, of 4


### course, there are other problems with hydraulic 5


### fracturing of t he gas and oil industry, in 6


### regards to surface and underground pollution, 7


### that is very hard to measure, especially on the 8



### ground. 9


### Second, the insufficiently regulated oil 10


### and gas industry will expand to produce even 11


### cheaper natural gas prices, at the expe nse of our 12



### environment. A major result that may not often 13



### be talked about is that whenever we stifle the 14


### essential growth in our energy efficiency and 15


### renewable energy implementations

-- I've worked 16


### in this industry for many decades, and it just 17



### works tha t way. If fossil fuels are cheap, 18


### energy efficiency goes on the back burner, 19


### period. Of course, incentives do help. 20


### Third, the expansion of the gas oil 21


### extraction as a result of the power plant 22

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### expansions, will not necessarily lead to a 1



### reduction in coa l extraction, nor even in global 2



### greenhouse gases and other related pollutant. 3


### The coal mining, as well as oil extraction, 4


### operations can simply export their excess 5


### capacity to the world's hungry industrial 6


### markets, instead of used in power plants. So it 7


### will reduce in our power plants but to 8


### necessarily in the world. 9


### Just briefly on solutions, and then I'm 10


### taking too long. The Clean Power Plan must 11


### enable the EPA to better develop regulations and 12


### these three growing problems, somehow. First, 13



### the EPA m ust support accurate measurements of 14



### total future methane emissions and the whole 15


### lifecycle process, as well as the total external 16


### costs of all pollution from increased natural gas 17


### and other fossil fuel production and consumption. 18



### I know it's hard to esti mate total general cost 19


### to the environment, but that is a big, big 20



### problem. 21



### Second

-- my time is up? Okay. Should I 22

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### just stop? I have this written down, and I'll 1


### submit it to you. 2



### MS. NOONAN: Yes. Please submit it at 3


### the registration desk. 4



### MR. BOLL INGER: Okay. Thank you. 5


### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. I think at this 6


### point we're going to take a short break. Is 7


### there anyone in the audience who either would 8


### like to speak and has not yet registered or 9


### thinks that they have a spot? Okay. Just hold 10



### on on e second and we'll make sure we get the

-- 11


### we'll be right back. 12



### [Inaudible comment.] 13


### MS. NOONAN: Sure. Come on up, and sir? 14


### If you could turn your mic on and just state your 15


### name and go ahead with your testimony. 16


### MR. CASTELLINO: My name is Robert 17



### Cas tellino. C

- a

- s

- t

- e

- l

- l

- i

- n

- o. I'm a 18


### professional photographer and a self

- published 19



### author. Colorado has been my home for 40 years. 20


### I love Colorado because of its natural beauty, 21


### immense diversity, and outdoor lifestyle. I 22

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### spent more than 3 of those ye ars camping in the 1


### wilds of Colorado. Over those years, I've 2


### photographed, written, and published five books 3


### about Colorado, each with a chapter designated to 4



### the ecology of commerce. 5



### As a result, I have witnessed and 6


### recorded significant visual changes and physical 7


### environmental degradation to Colorado's sensitive 8


### and fragile ecology due to the onslaught of the 9


### global climate crisis. It concerns me and 10


### saddens me deeply. Burning coal to electrify 11


### heat and cool our homes, government operations, 12



### institut ions, and businesses is exacerbating the 13



### problem. 14



### In 2010, the EPA itself recorded there 15



### were a total of 454 U.S. power plants that use 16


### coal to generate at least 95 percent of their 17


### electricity. Those plants emitted 1.7 trillion 18



### metric tons of CO2 into t he air. That's a lot of 19


### pollution. In Colorado alone, for the year 2012, 20


### coal plant emissions were approximately 35 21


### million metric tons, equivalent to the emissions 22

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### of 6.7 million cars. Reducing power plant 1


### emissions 35 percent nationwide over the next 15 2


### years would be the equivalent of taking 350 3


### million gas

- powered automobiles off the road. 4


### Some of the effects and outcomes driving 5


### the global climate crisis in Colorado are warming 6


### in longer springs and falls and shortened winters 7


### with lower and averag e snowpack, creating water 8


### shortages across the West; melting glaciers in 9


### Colorado, affecting stable, long

- term water 10


### supplies of dense populations along the Front 11


### Range; extended droughts, like the one affecting 12


### the southeast portion of our state, estimat ed to 13



### be three times worse than the Dust Bowl era of 14



### the 1930s. 15


### Extensive vast tracts of pine forests are 16


### being decimated by the pine and spruce beetles. 17


### Their life cycles two times each season as a 18


### result, and that's happening across all of North 19



### Ameri ca. 20


### We experience more and frequent forest 21


### fires that burn hotter and thoroughly destroying 22

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### our homes, land, diverse and wild ecology, and 1



### ecotourist

- based economy. We have extreme 2



### weather events like the out

- of

- season flood of 3


### September 2013, affectin g an area of 4,500 square 4


### miles, destroying 485 miles of road, damaging 120 5


### bridges, plus 1,882 homes were destroyed, with 6


### 226,000 households disrupted. The cost

-- $2.5 7


### billion and rising. All these are drawing an 8



### exact toll and cost and that cannot be enumerated 9



### in actual dollars and cents, nor in the terms of 10


### the decrease in the quality of our lives, other 11


### species, and the planet. 12


### Let's look at the bright side for a 13


### minute, though, at least from an economic 14


### perspective. In 2008, Businessweek's webs ite 15


### report the top 25 coal producers had a combined 16


### revenue of $349 billion in 2007. Then, let's 17


### just redistribute 30 percent of those revenues, 18


### or $105 billion, to the renewable energy sector 19



### of the economy over the next 15 years. Those 20



### dollars would eq uate to the new investment in 21



### infrastructure. It will create sustainable 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### business and jobs in the energy efficiency, wind, 1


### solar, geothermal, solar thermal, hydroelectric, 2


### and biomass energy businesses. 3



### The hard dollar saved after the initial 4



### investmen ts and amortized into the short run 5


### would revitalize American communities and put 6



### hard

- earned dollars back in the pockets of the 7



### average and lower

- income wage earners over the 8



### long haul. The Clean Power Plan cost to the 9



### taxpayer

-- absolutely nothing. It 's a real 10


### stimulus package that will go the distance 11


### towards creating economic recovery that is truly 12



### sustainable. 13


### Rolling back greenhouse gases 17 percent 14


### by 2020 compared to 2005 levels is good, but it 15



### is too far in the distant future for a task that 16


### needed to have been done today. For all it's 17



### worth, the Clean Power Plan proposed by the EPA 18


### is a great first step that will benefit ours and 19


### future generations. 20



### Thank you very much. 21


### MS. OLSON: Hi, yeah. I'm Sherry Olson, 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### O

- l

- s

- o

- n, and I'm an atmosp heric chemist, 1


### volunteering at national center in Boulder, 2



### Colorado, and I'm here to express my support of 3


### EPA's effort to reduce carbon pollution from 4


### power plants, setting a strong standard under the 5



### Clean Air Act. 6



### Power plants are one of the largest 7



### so urces of carbon emissions in the United States 8


### today, and these standards are a critical step to 9


### reducing emissions and reducing the effect of 10


### global warming, and will contribute to a 11


### transition to cleaner electrical power. 12


### I urge you to fully capitalize on this 13


### historical opportunity to strengthen emission 14


### reductions target in a final rule, and encourage 15


### your leadership, by states, to include a 16


### significant role in renewable energy and energy 17


### efficiency in their compliance plan. 18



### I believe that we have a n obligation to 19


### protect our children and the future generations 20


### from the effects of climate change, and by 21


### addressing its causes and impacts. I urge you to 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### work quickly and strengthen and finalize strong 1


### standards for new and existing power plants by 2



### June 2015. 3



### Thank you so much. 4



### MS. NOONAN: Ms. Olson, could you 5


### register as a speaker with the

-- 6



### MS. OLSON: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 7



### MS. NOONAN:

-- just so we know, and we 8


### have you in the count. 9



### MS. OLSON: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. 10



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Okay. Daniel 11


### Holmes and Julie Buck up next, followed by Thomas 12



### Walch and Suzann Thomas. 13



### [Inaudible comment.] 14



### MS. NOONAN: Okay. Go ahead. Push the 15


### button there and start out by saying your

-- 16


### spelling your name. 17


### MS. BUCK: My name is Julie Buck, J

- u

- l

18



### i

- e B

- u

- c

- k. Thank you to the EPA for the 19


### opportunity to speak in a public setting. 20


### My name is Julie Olson Buck and I'm a 21



### stay

- at

- home mom, a woman of faith, and an active 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### community volunteer. My personal reasons for 1


### being here today are sitting behi nd me, my 4

- 2



### year

- old son, Joshua, and my 10

- year

- old 3


### daughter, Ashley, and a livable future that I 4



### hope for them. 5



### I could tell you many of the ways that 6


### climate change has impacted our live and the 7



### lives of all those that call Colorado home. 8



### There are ma ny, from floods to dying forests to 9


### depleting snowpack to severe drought to forest 10


### fires, but today I'm going to speak about a 11


### health impact of climate change that you may not 12



### be aware of. 13


### I have multiple sclerosis. More people 14


### have multiple sclerosis in Colorado than in any 15


### other state in the country. In fact, in 16


### Colorado, 1 in 550 people have multiple 17


### sclerosis. You heard that correctly

-- 1 in 550. 18


### How does my MS relate to climate change? Well, 19


### it has to do with temperature. You might not 20



### know tha t one very common symptom of MS is the 21


### inability to tolerate heat. 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### People with MS don't simply feel hotter 1



### than other people

-- warm temperatures can 2



### actually cause or worsen MS symptoms. These 3


### include blurred vision; numbness, tingling or 4


### pain in extr emities; vertigo, difficulty walking; 5


### reduced mental capacity and clarity; and 6


### debilitating fatigue. 7


### According to the National MS Society, it 8


### only takes a difference of one

- quarter to one

9


### half degree change in the body temperature to 10



### worsen symptoms. Hot ter temperatures caused by 11


### climate change are becoming more and more 12


### frequent. This means that worsening MS symptoms 13


### are also becoming more and more frequent. Hotter 14


### temperatures are a direct result of the carbon 15


### pollution being put into our atmosphere, 40 16


### percent of which are generated by power plants in 17



### the U.S. Forty percent. 18


### Not all people with MS work inside air

19


### conditioned office buildings. Imagine those with 20


### MS working outside in construction or road work, 21


### as lifeguards or electrical line worker s, as 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### police officers or street vendors, concession 1



### workers at ballgames, landscapers, surveyors, 2


### park rangers, camp counselors, tree trimmers, 3


### sewer line workers, firefighters, window washers, 4


### miners, loggers, valets, roofers, sanitation 5



### workers, farmers, dog walkers, or recreational 6


### guides, or even a stay

- at

- home mom trying to play 7


### outside with her kids during the day. 8


### Imagine trying to do your work, whatever 9


### it may be, with your usual MS symptoms. Imagine 10


### it getting worse on hot days. Imagine the numb er 11


### and intensity of hot days increasing. Imagine 12


### having your vision go blurry as a direct result 13


### of the temperature. Imagine worrying about 14


### keeping your job as you repeatedly ask for breaks 15


### or time off, or leaving your job entirely. 16



### Even for those with MS that do work in 17



### air

- conditioned office buildings, a short walk 18


### from car to office in extreme heat can require a 19


### recovery time several times greater than the time 20


### they spent outside. I know. For me, a short 21


### walk down the street with my dog during the 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### m iddle of the day, can mean extreme fatigue or 1


### requiring a nap of around an hour. 2


### When worsening MS symptoms occur, the 3


### people experiencing them do a whole lot less

-- 4


### less working, less volunteering, less caring for 5


### family members, less living. Higher temperatures 6


### mean more disability and less productivity, with 7


### subsequent impacts on the economy and personal 8



### finance. 9


### Some people might say that MS is my 10



### problem, not a power plant problem. Yes, people 11


### with MS are more affected by heat than others 12


### might be, but climate change has brought steadily 13


### hotter temperatures year by year, making life 14


### more difficult for people with MS. Climate 15


### change means I feel worse. My cousin with MS 16



### feels worse. One in 550 Coloradans feel worse. 17


### An estimated 350,000 people affected by MS in the 18



### United States feel worse. 19



### Reductions in the amount of carbon 20


### emissions from power plants will have a positive 21


### impact on the lives of those living with MS, now 22

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### and into the future. The EPA should finalize its 1



### proposed Clean Power Pl an. 2


### Thank you for your time. 3


### MS. NOONAN: Turn off your mic and turn 4


### yours on, and say your name and spell it please. 5


### MR. BEIGLE: Hi. My name is Garrett 6


### Beigle. It's G

- a

- r

- r

- e

- t

- t B

- e

- i

- g

- l

- e. I'm a 7



### student at Metro State here in Denver. About 97 8



### p ercent of studies by climate scientists have 9


### implicated humanity in climate change. Unless 10


### you have the credentials, it is daft to dispute 11


### their findings, as you're not qualified to do so. 12


### Every day in a science journal, magazine, 13


### or website, I see the g rim consequences of 14


### climate change

-- floods, fires, extreme storms, 15


### droughts, acidification of the ocean, extinction, 16


### and so on. Climate change has already cost 17



### billions and will cost billions more in the 18


### future. We cannot afford to wait for change 19



### beca use the fossil fuel industry does not want to 20


### recognize reality, because doing so will, and 21



### already has, plundered our future. 22

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### As such, I'm in support of this rule. 1



### Thank you. 2



### MS. NOONAN: Mr. Walch, and Suzann 3



### Thomas? 4



### MR. WALCH: Good afternoon. I'm Thomas 5



### Walch, that's W

- a

- l

- c

- h. I'm the General Manager 6


### of Grand Valley Rural Power Lines. We're a small 7


### distribution utility over in Grand Junction, on 8



### the other side of the Rockies. I'm also a board 9



### member of the Colorado Rural Electric 10



### Association, b ut I want to point out that I'm not 11


### speaking on their behalf. 12



### I've seen a lot of the powder blue tee

13


### shirts saying "I heart clean air," and I wanted 14


### to let you know we heart clean air, too. We like 15


### renewable energy and energy efficiency. At our 16


### utility, it's more than just a tee

- shirt. Last 17



### year, almost 25 percent of our energy came from 18



### renewable resources. We're well on track to 19



### exceed 30 percent by 2020. That's one of the 20



### best marks in the state of Colorado, and I think 21



### it's one of the leaders in t he nation. By our 22

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### actions, by our investments, we've demonstrated 1


### that we support clean air. 2



### Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that we 3


### can support the Clean Power Plan the way it's 4


### currently written. We think we've identified 5



### some flaws in it, and we'd like to see those 6


### addressed so that we can support it. You'll see a 7



### lot of detail about it in the written comments, 8


### but I want to hit some of the high points. 9


### I think that the plan's building blocks 10


### use some flawed assumptions. The 6

- percent 11


### improvement in heat rates

-- I haven't heard of a 12



### generator anywhere that can say that they can do 13


### even 1 percent. Six percent is extremely 14


### aggressive. I think the 70

- percent ramp

- up of 15


### capacity of natural gas

- combined cycle plants, 16



### it's not attainable. 17



### In many instances, the air permits that 18



### we have are limited to a 20

- percent capacity, 19


### and, besides that, if you ramp their capacity up 20


### that much, it's not available to serve as backup 21



### for intermittent renewable resources that don't 22

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### generate electricity when the su n is not shining 1


### or the wind is not blowing. 2



### I think that the Clean Power Plan, the 3


### way it's written is flawed because it punishes 4


### states like Colorado, and generators like Xcel 5


### Energy, who is our wholesale power provider, for 6


### being aggressive and reducin g carbon emissions. 7


### We don't get credit for all the things that we've 8


### done before 2012, and that just doesn't seem 9


### right. 10


### I think the plan is flawed because the 11


### interim targets are too aggressive. This not 12


### only requires the agency to rush into this rule

13


### making, it's going to be really difficult for the 14


### states. They're going to be rushed into their 15


### implementation plans. 16



### You know, with the Affordable Care Act, 17


### the American public has seen what can happen when 18


### a drastic change is imposed on a significant 19


### segment of the economy in a relatively short 20


### period of time. With the Clean Power Plan, it's 21


### a bigger change to a bigger part of the economy, 22

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### in a shorter period of time. 1


### This isn't a recipe for success. When 2


### you think about it, the overall result of the 3


### plan is a reduction of global emissions of less 4


### than 2 percent by 2030. I think it's clear that 5


### it's more symbolic than it is substantive. That 6


### being the case, I think it's more important to do 7


### it right than to do it fast. The thing is, you 8



### have the support of the American people. You 9


### don't have to rush it. If you take your time and 10


### do it right, you'll keep that support. 11


### I think the biggest flaw of the plan is 12


### that it hasn't adequately addressed some of the 13


### cost implications. From a direct cost 14



### s tandpoint, it can't be argued that coal is 15


### cheapest. When you phase coal out, power bills 16


### go up. When you increase the demand for natural 17



### gas, as the plan contemplates, the cost of that 18


### is going to go up. That's going to directly hit 19


### utility bills, but it's also going to indirectly 20


### hit the cost of every product or service that 21


### relies on electricity, and it's going to be a 22

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### regressive tax that hits low

- income people the 1



### hardest. 2



### Colorado used rate caps to lessen the 3


### impact when it took steps to reduce ca rbon 4


### emissions. I think that's a great model for the 5



### agency to follow. 6


### You know, the agency is hearing from a 7


### lot of folks. I urge you to listen to the folks 8


### that have balanced responsibility and balanced 9


### experience, like the state of Colorado, that's 10



### b een successful in introducing, in reducing 11


### carbon emissions, like Xcel Energy, who has been 12


### a leader, and like consumer and business groups 13


### that are going to bear the costs of the 14


### regulations. 15



### Thank you. 16



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. You can stay 17



### seated, and you can turn off your button. Thank 18



### you. 19



### MS. THOMAS: Hi. I'm Suzann, S

- u

- z

- a

- n

20



### n, Thomas. I know I'm supposed to be here 21


### because I found a parking spot. 22

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### [Laughter.] 1



### MS. THOMAS: And I think that it's also 2


### very telling that we're having this discussi on 3


### while the area in Lyons, Colorado is just holding 4


### on by their fingernails, to not have another huge 5


### flood that ruined their just

- rebuilt businesses 6



### and homes. 7



### I'm also

-- I think it's important to say 8



### that I have Native American blood in me, and I'm 9


### very, very grateful that I do, and it was very 10


### sweet to turn the corner and see a big old 11


### handmade star quilt, right there, because I think 12



### -- I'm from Texas, Austin, Texas, and I've lived 13


### in Colorado for 20 years, but it's not

-- you 14



### know, power plants ar e the number one source of 15


### carbon pollution in the United States, but this 16


### is bigger than the United States. 17


### This is what Lakota call [speaks Lakota], 18


### which is Mother Earth, which is extremely 19


### important, and I don't understand

-- it is very 20



### hard for me to understand why more people don't 21


### see the superstorms, the flooding, the drought, 22

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### the temperature changes, the ocean rising, the 1


### polar cap melting. 2



### I mean, how much more information do we 3


### have to have, and how hard is it going to be to 4


### ignore all this ? I mean, you're going to have to 5


### give up your day jobs and just, we're just going 6



### to have to use all the energy that we can muster 7


### to ignore all the signs, but this is very, very 8



### critical. 9


### So, I'm not a scientist and I won't speak 10



### like one because I'm n ot able to, but I am a 11


### citizen of this world, and I'm a grandmother, and 12


### I'm a mother. Last week I was in Miami, sitting 13


### with my 3

- and 6

- year

- old grandgirls, and they 14



### wanted to watch The Lorax, and I didn't know if I 15


### could get through it. And I didn't w ith dry 16


### eyes, and you're like, "Gigi, what's wrong?" And 17


### in my head the answer that's just resounding is 18


### so many things are wrong, and the biggest wrong 19


### is that people are ignoring this, and the signs 20



### are huge. 21



### So what I said to them was, "You know, 22

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### it's okay. It's like the Lorax. We're going to 1


### get it." And my hope and my prayer and my 2


### fingers are crossed that we get it really soon, 3


### because I think it may be too late. I really 4


### think it may have happened

-- it should have 5



### happened yesterday. 6


### So I'm j ust here as

-- you know, go watch 7


### The Lorax. Watch it with your children and your 8


### grandchildren. Watch it with your next door 9


### neighbor kids, but watch it, because that's where 10


### we're at, and we need more people who will just 11



### stand up and speak for the tre es, and the oceans, 12



### and the mountains, and the star fields, and the 13



### air we breathe, and the water we drink. 14


### Oh, I just got through dancing at a sun 15



### dance in the middle of nowhere in South Dakota, 16



### with Lakota Sioux, and I could see the stars 17



### because there were absolutely no artificial 18


### lights, so it looks like you could just reach up 19



### and touch this blanket of stars. And I want us 20


### to keep that. I want us to keep our clean air, 21


### and I want our children and our grandchildren to 22

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### not be scared to death like I am right now, about 1


### the future of the whole entire planet. 2



### There's no reason. We have so many 3


### renewable resources and clean energy available to 4


### us right now, that we are kind of being banned, 5


### in certain ways, from using. I mean, I’m a 6



### retiree and I have s olar panels on my house, and 7


### if I can do it, so many people can do it. 8


### I drove here in a car that is very 9


### dependent on the oil and gas industry, but I'm 10


### about to buy a Smart Car, because it has 50 miles 11


### to the gallon, it's made out of what Jeep roll 12



### bars are made out of, and I can tool around town 13


### in that. So there are all kinds of options, but 14


### they need to be more available to us, to the 15



### lower

- income people, to the middle America, to 16



### all of us, and we need to realize that, I think 17


### scraping the bottom of the oil and gas barrel is 18



### futile. 19



### It's all about greed and money. I mean, 20


### I'm sorry to say but it just is, and on a dead 21


### planet, there are no jobs. There just aren't, 22

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### and money would be pretty meaningless, I think. 1


### The Keystone XL Pipeline comes to m ind. 2


### It's like they keep talking about jobs, and, in 3


### reality, there are very few prominent jobs. The 4


### majority, like 90 percent of the jobs are 5


### temporary, which simply means that there will be 6


### very, very little quality assurance when they 7


### throw this pipel ine in the ground and it runs 8


### through the Ogallala Aquifer, and our cleanest, 9


### most pristine farms. 10


### So I ask you, you know, NOAA has given up 11


### on us adults. The National Oceanic Atmospheric 12


### Administration has given up on us, but they're 13


### hitting our babies hard to get rid of plastic 14


### bags, to recycle, you know, to just be stewards 15


### of this earth. So I ask you, let's give them a 16



### chance to grow up and do that. 17



### Thank you. 18



### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Thank you both. 19


### The last speaker before the break will be Ross 20



### Cunniff. 21


### MR. CUNNIFF: Good afternoon. My name is 22

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### Ross Cunniff. That's C

- u

- n

- n

- i

- f

- f. I am a Fort 1


### Collins city councilmember, but I'm speaking only 2



### on my own behalf today. 3


### My father was born and raised in 4



### Colorado. Although he left Colorado to serv e in 5


### the U.S. Army, we returned frequently in the 6


### 1960s and 1970s to visit our family here. I have 7


### vivid memories of Colorado from those days. I 8


### remember startling blue skies, fast

- running 9



### mountain streams, tree

- covered hillsides, and 10



### snow

- capped mountai ntops. 11


### My wife and I moved to Colorado in 1987, 12


### to raise our family. Although many more people 13


### lived there by then, the character of the state 14



### was much the same as I remembered it, and we 15


### delighted in sharing it with our daughters as 16



### they grew up. 17



### Howe ver, the past decade has seen 18


### significant changes for the worse. Colorado is 19



### not the same as it was when I was a kid. The 20


### view of the Front Range is frequently obscured by 21



### haze. The mountains are now snow

- capped nearly 22

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### as often as they used to be. Glac iers in Rocky 1



### Mountain National Park have receded. The forests 2


### have been devastated, first by the infestation of 3


### pine beetles and then by wildfires. Drought has 4


### alternated with severe flooding impacts, the 5


### impacts of which are made worse by the newly 6



### bar ren hillsides. And diseases like West Nile 7


### Virus are now present in Colorado, where they 8



### never were before. 9


### All of these impacts are related to the 10


### significantly warmer climate. The proof is in 11


### the numbers. The frequency and duration of 12



### record

- breaking heat waves has increased 13


### dramatically. Not only that, but the intensity 14


### and length of cold spells has decreased. This 15


### has directly impacted our watershed and has led 16


### to the spread of warmer weather insects, 17


### parasites, and diseases which would not have 18



### s urvived the winters of the past. 19



### This is not a natural disaster, or 20


### something that's just happening to us. People 21


### are the direct cause of this rapid climate 22

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### change. Our carbon dioxide emissions continue to 1


### increase, creating a visible blanket around the 2


### planet, which keeps heat from escaping into 3



### space. 4


### On the Fort Collins City Council, we 5


### spend significant time and money dealing with the 6


### effects of climate change. We had to add water 7


### treatment stages to deal with ash from the 2012 8


### High Park fire. W e, along with most communities 9


### in Larimer County, are still working to recover 10


### from the 2013 flash floods. We spend time, 11


### energy, and money on policies and procedures 12


### regarding West Nile Virus in our community. 13


### Although we have an aggressive climate acti on 14



### plan, we understand that we only control a small 15


### part of the United States carbon dioxide 16


### production. 17


### This is why we need the Federal 18



### Government to help. We need to act together, as 19


### a unified country, and rapidly and dramatically 20


### reduce our production of carbon dioxide. Coal

21


### fired power plants are the biggest single 22

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### producers of CO2. The proposed EPA regulations 1


### are a necessary start to our action. 2


### My wife and I recently discovered that we 3


### are soon to become grandparents. This has made 4



### my resolve t o address climate change that much 5


### more passionate. I want my grandchildren, and 6


### all of our grandchildren, to enjoy the same 7


### beautiful earth that we enjoyed. Please help 8



### make that happen. 9



### Thank you. 10


### MS. NOONAN: And with that we're going to 11



### take a 10

- m inute recess, and come back after 12



### that. 13



### [Recess taken from 12:58 to 1:10.] 14



### AFTERNOON SESSION 15



### MS. BROWN: Good afternoon. We'd like to 16


### go ahead and get started again for the afternoon 17



### session

-- and it's not working? Awesome. Let me 18


### just do it like this for now, since the 19


### technology is not quite cooperating. 20


### My name is Amanda Curry Brown and I'm one 21


### of the chairs for today's public hearing. I am 22

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### from the EPA Office of Air Quality, Planning, and 1



### Standards in North Carolina. 2


### On the panel with me today a re David 3


### Risley and Ryan Sims, both from the Office of 4


### Atmospheric Programs in Washington, D.C. 5


### We are here today to listen to your 6



### comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 7


### pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 8



### of these proposed rules of June 2, 2014. 9



### Power plants are the largest source of 10


### carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 11



### roughly one

- third of all domestic greenhouse gas 12



### emissions. 13


### The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 14


### Power Plan for existing power plants. This 15



### proposal c onsists of two main parts: state

16


### specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 17


### power plants and guidelines to help states 18


### develop their plans for meeting those goals. 19


### This proposal gives states flexibility in 20


### determining how to meet their goals. States will 21


### choose what goes into their plans, to show how 22

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### they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 1


### their goals by 2030. 2


### The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 3



### address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 4


### and reconstructed power plants. This rule w ould 5


### set emission limits for two groups of power 6


### plants: those that make a physical or 7


### operational changes that increases the plant's 8


### maximum achievable hourly rate of emissions, and 9



### those that replace components to such an extent 10



### that the new components exceed 50 percent of the 11


### capital costs of an entirely new comparable 12


### facility. If you would like more details on 13



### these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 14


### available near the registration desk. 15


### Today's hearing is one of four public 16


### hearings across the country this week on the two 17


### proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 18


### in each of the hearings, and I'd like to thank 19


### each of you for taking time out of your day to 20


### join us and sharing your comments. 21


### We have a lot of people signed up to 22

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### speak today , and we want to hear from all of 1


### them, so before we get started, I'd like to go 2


### through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 3


### that will help make today's hearing run smoothly, 4


### so you all could just bear with me. I know some 5


### of you have heard this sev eral times. We'll go 6


### through it one more. 7


### First, be sure that you have checked in 8


### at the registration desk, even if you are not 9


### planning to speak today, and if you signed up to 10


### speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 11



### you're here, please step ou t to the registration 12



### desk and let the EPA staff know that you've 13



### arrived. 14


### Second, if you are a speaker, you were 15


### given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 16



### or Room B. This is Room A. You should check now 17


### to make sure you're in the right room and i f 18


### you're not, this is a good time to switch. 19


### If you are not speaking this afternoon 20



### and the room gets crowded, there are two 21


### additional rooms set up where you can watch the 22

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### hearing on video, and there is also a 1


### simultaneous hearing going on in Room B. Our 2


### staff at the registration desk can direct you to 3



### one of those rooms. 4


### Here's how the hearing will work today. I 5


### will call up speakers in pairs. When your name 6


### is called, please come to the podiums at the 7



### front of the room. When I call you to speak, 8



### p lease state your name and spell it for the court 9


### reporter. Your comments will be transcribed and 10



### included in the record of comments on the 11



### proposed rule. 12


### Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 13


### comments. We have a light to help you know how 14


### much time y ou have left to speak. When the light 15



### turns from green to yellow, that means you have 1 16


### minute remaining. When it turns red, that's a 17


### signal to wrap up your testimony. The light will 18



### flash red and beep when you have spoken for 5 19



### minutes, and that's when it's time to stop. When 20


### you've finished speaking, please remain at the 21


### table until the person next to you has completed 22

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### his or her testimony. 1


### We are here to listen to you today. 2


### However, a panel member may ask you a question to 3


### clarify your comments. After each pair of 4


### speakers has finished, I will call up the next 5


### pair of speakers, and so on, until we get through 6


### the list of registered speakers for this session. 7


### If you have brought a written copy of 8


### your testimony, please give that to the staff at 9



### t he registration desk before you leave today. 10



### Because of the large number of people who 11


### have signed up to speak, and to be fair to 12


### everyone, we're going to have to strictly enforce 13



### the 5

- minute limit. If you have additional 14


### comments you would like to mak e, you can submit 15


### them in writing. Let me assure you that EPA 16


### gives just as much consideration to comments we 17


### receive in writing as we do to comments we 18


### receive at public hearings like this one. If you 19


### have more to say, please submit it, and your 20



### comment s will be reviewed. 21


### There is still plenty of time to get 22

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### written comments in and there are comment cards 1


### available at the registration desk. Comments 2


### must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 3


### put any written comments submitted today in the 4



### official docket for the proposed rule. 5


### Instructions for submitting written comments in 6


### other ways are available on the materials table 7


### near the registration desk. 8


### We're scheduled to go until 8 p.m. today. 9



### We'll take short breaks throughout the day, as 10



### needed. T his session is scheduled to break at 11


### five, and may break earlier if there are gaps 12



### between speakers. 13


### If you have any questions during the day, 14


### please see the staff at the registration desk and 15


### somebody will try to help you. 16


### Finally, I want to ask each of you to 17



### please be respectful of everyone who speaks 18


### today. We have people with a wide variety of 19



### views in the audience, and we want to hear from 20


### all of you. So we can do that, and to be fair to 21


### everyone, we ask that everyone listen quietly. 22

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### Even applaus e can slow things down, and we want 1


### to hear from everyone who has signed up to speak. 2


### And if any of you have a cell phone with 3


### you, if could put it on vibrate or silent, that 4


### would be excellent, and kind of help things move 5



### along. 6


### Thank you again for tak ing the time to 7


### share your comments with EPA proposed rule, and 8


### with that, we can get started. 9


### The first pair of speakers are Rick 10



### Blotter and Steve Tomac. Mr. Blotter, you can go 11



### ahead and start. 12


### MR. BLOTTER: Good morning. My name is 13



### Rick Blotter, B

- l

- o

- t

- t

- e

- r. I appreciate your 14


### taking the time to listen to my testimony. Thank 15



### you. 16



### I live southeast of here, in central 17


### Elbert County. I taught and coached in the 18


### public schools for the better part of my life. 19


### My wife and I raised our two daughters in 4

- H and 20


### country living. Now my daughters, grandchildren, 21



### and my great

- grandchild enjoy visiting our farm, 22

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### where the water is clean and the air is fresh. 1


### We originally moved from Aurora, closer to 2


### Denver, upon the recommendation of our daughter's 3


### pedia trician, to get her away from the smog. As 4



### a teacher and coach, I was amazed at the number 5



### of children who relied on inhalers to reduce the 6


### symptoms of asthma, to make it through a workout 7



### or a stressful situation. 8


### I appreciate the attempt to tighten air 9


### pollution standards, but I'm opposed to the rules 10


### as they're written. They must be must tougher. 11



### They must reduce greenhouse gases. We need a 12



### Clean Power Plan that must reduce the use of 13



### fossil fuels in favor of renewables, 14


### conservation, and efficiency . I ask this of you 15


### for the children of the planet. 16


### We need greater reduction of greenhouse 17


### gas emissions than the 30 percent suggested by 18



### 2030. We should go for at least 40 percent. We 19


### must include the total life cycle of emissions, 20


### and include greenh ouse, gas

- fired power plants. 21


### The rule should include taking into account for 22

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### all the methane leakage during production, 1


### processing, and transmission of natural gas, and 2


### should include flaring at well pads. 3


### Natural gas is not the solution to our 4



### climate problems. The rules should set absolute 5


### reduction targets for total greenhouse emissions 6



### for each state. States should not be allowed to 7


### average their emissions. Cap and trade doesn't 8



### work. Let's make a difference here. Make this 9



### count. 10



### My research q uestions the safety of 11


### natural gas exploration, production, 12


### transmission, and waste disposal, and it's 13


### specifically high

- volume, slick water, hydraulic 14


### fracturing. NOAA conducted a study last year 15


### that linked concentrations of ground

- level ozone 16



### on the Fr ont Range to the fields of Weld County, 17


### the oil and gas fields. More air studies are 18


### currently being done. 19


### Everyone knows the health impacts of 20


### smog, especially on the young, pregnant women, 21


### the elderly, and those with comprised immune 22

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### systems. The incr ease in the number of wells 1


### amplifies the effects, and that too many people 2


### whose lives have been disrupted physically 3


### because they live too close to wells. 4


### I've got to diverge a little bit. Bear 5


### with me. Maybe you need some humor here to wake 6



### you up he re for the rest or the afternoon. 7


### Senator Bernie Sanders has a thing going 8


### on, on the Internet right now. It says something 9


### like this. The top five oil and gas companies 10


### alone made over $1 trillion in the last decade. 11


### A trillion bucks. He figures out that that's 12


### about $250 million a day. They're destroying the 13


### planet and getting rich doing it

-- that's what 14


### Bernie says. 15



### I think it's about time we hold the 16



### fossil fuel industries accountable to future 17


### generations. Please consider the precautionary 18



### p rinciple. We have to consider the effects of 19



### our actions. We must think ahead, think about 20



### our great

- grandchildren. A Native American 21


### proverb says, "We do not inherit the planet from 22

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### our ancestors. We borrow it from our children." 1



### My dad always taug ht me, when I was a 2


### kid, if I ever borrowed anything, I'd better 3


### return it in better shape than I took it, and I 4


### hope we do that with our planet. 5


### Thank you. I appreciate it. 6



### MS. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Blotter. Mr. 7


### Tomac, you may begin. 8



### MR. TOMAC: Tha nk you. Thank you for 9


### this opportunity. My name is Steve Tomac. 10



### That's spelled T

- o

- m

- a

- c. I represent Basin 11


### Electric Power Cooperative. Basic Electric is a 12


### generation and transmission cooperative based in 13



### Bismarck, North Dakota. We serve 2.9 million 14


### consumers through 136 rural electric co

- ops in 15


### nine states. We have a diverse energy portfolio, 16


### including coal, wind, natural gas, and nuclear. 17


### More than a decade ago, we built our first 18



### commercial

- scale wind projects in the Dakotas. 19



### Our commitment to environment comes from our 20


### board of directors and is one of our founding 21


### principles for more than 50 years. 22

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### Roughly 77 percent of the energy Basin 1


### currently provides to its membership comes from 2



### coal. The Clean Power Plan, as proposed, could 3



### have seriou s impacts on affordability and 4


### reliability of electricity we provide to our 5



### members. In 2013, we recommended several areas 6


### we wanted EPA to focus on, as they developed this 7


### rule. It was in this very hearing room. You 8



### responded to some but others are on the table. 9


### So, constructively, we again come before 10


### you and state that we appreciate EPA's 11


### willingness to consider a flexible approach to 12


### compliance, but, unfortunately, the Clean Power 13


### Plan raises more questions, at least for us, than 14


### it provides. 15



### Given the ambiguity and apparently 16


### contradictions, we request that you extend the 17


### comment period an additional 60 days for 18



### clarification, and with that we'd also have four 19


### ideas we'd like to share with you, 20


### constructively. 21


### (1) Regional plans. As a multistate 22

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### utility, we support a regional approach. 1


### However, what works for one state may not work in 2



### another. 3


### (2) Heat rate improvement. We designed 4


### and built our power plants to operate at maximum 5


### efficiency. There may be opportunities to 6


### improve generating efficiency where economical, 7



### but current new source review rules don't allow 8


### projects that result in higher level of 9


### efficiencies. EPA should ensure energy 10


### efficiency improvements pursued by utilities 11


### under this rule, and approved by state plans, 12



### should not trigger NSR. 13


### (3) Early action. Any project that 14



### reduces CO2 emissions should be allowed for 15


### compliance, as long as those reductions are 16


### verifiable and measurable. Through our 17


### subsidiary, DGC, the Great Plains Synfuels Plant 18


### has captured and deliver ed more than 28 million 19


### tons of CO2 for ultimate sequestration in oil 20



### fields in southern Saskatchewan. As 21


### Administrator McCarthy said, when she visited 22

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### that plant in March, "This facility is about the 1


### innovation in the United States. The facility is 2



### abou t what we can do when we work together." EPA 3


### should permits states to include innovations like 4


### this in their plans. 5


### (4) Redispatch of NGCC plants, natural 6


### gas combined cycle plants. A 70 percent capacity 7


### factor for combined cycle plants might be 8



### technic ally possible but permitting transmission 9


### constraints and higher maintenance costs in the 10


### energy demand all affect the plant's ability to 11


### run. EPA's own analysis indicates these plants 12


### will run an average of just 56 percent of the 13


### time. We're suggesting EPA recalculate the state 14


### targets to assume a more realistic capacity. 15


### (5) Renewable energy credits. Do 16


### renewable energy credits, or so

- called green 17


### tags, stay with the generating state or follow 18


### the load to the state in which the electricity is 19



### consume d? This is part of the ambiguity we're 20


### referring to. The rule appears to leave this 21


### matter up to the states. By 2016, we will have 22

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### more than 1,000 megawatts of wind in our system. 1


### The question of green tags will certainly impact 2


### our ability to comply w ith the rule in a service 3



### area. 4


### (6) Finally, we have specific concerns 5


### how EPA counted Basin Electric's combined cycle 6


### generation in South Dakota. Deer Creek Station 7


### was under construction for the majority of 2012, 8


### and went operational late in that year . It ran 9


### just 90 hours during its startup phase. Yet, EPA 10



### assumed the plant has a 1

- percent capacity factor 11


### for the entire year. EPA's failure to accurately 12


### account for Deer Creek Station unfairly penalizes 13


### South Dakota in determining that state's 14



### emiss ions targets. EPA should correct South 15



### Dakota's target to reflect that Deer Creek 16



### Station was under construction in 2012. 17


### Thank you for holding this hearing and 18


### for taking the time to hear our concerns. We 19


### will be submitting formal comments before the e nd 20


### of the period. 21



### Thank you. 22

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### MS. BROWN: Thank you so much. Our next 1


### two speakers are William Midcap and Ron Nelsen. 2


### Mr. Midcap? 3



### MR. MIDCAP: Yes. 4



### MS. BROWN: If you want to go ahead and 5



### get started. 6



### MR. MIDCAP: Sure. Good afternoon. My 7



### name is W illiam Midcap, M

- i

- d as in David

- c

- a

- p 8


### as in Paul. I live in Fort Morgan, Colorado, 9



### about 80 miles northeast of Denver. I'm a 10


### consumer of electricity and I serve on a rural 11


### electric board of directors. Currently I'm the 12



### President of the Colorado Rural E lectric 13


### Association. CRA represents the interests of a 14


### very diverse set of folks, and the co

- ops in 15


### Colorado serve over 1.3 million people. 16


### I also work for Rocky Mountain Farmers 17


### Union in Denver. Rocky has 18,000 members in 18


### Colorado. Rocky Mountain Farm ers Union 19


### represents family farms and ranches. Fort Morgan 20


### is like many communities in Colorado, communities 21


### that rely on agriculture. Agriculture depends on 22

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### many resources, including electricity made from 1



### coal. All of us in this room eat because of 2



### agr iculture. Agriculture and the rural 3


### businesses that depend on agriculture cannot 4


### survive the rate increases that this proposed 5



### rule will need to initiate. The idea that we 6


### could force to shut down viable power plants that 7


### now supply much of our electrici ty and build 8


### compliance cycle plants is just not economically 9



### sound. 10


### Some experts that we have talked to in 11


### the utility industry have said that the rule 12



### forces Colorado to respond to a 30 percent 13


### reduction starting in 2017, and taking place 14



### before 2020, with the remaining 5 percent 15


### reduction would happen over the next 10 years. I 16


### just don't see this as being a feasible option. 17



### Co

- ops in Colorado have initiated many 18


### energy efficiency projects. My home co

- op has 19


### recently developed a program in cooperati on with 20


### the state energy office to reduce the loads of 21


### many of our dairies that we serve. Remember that 22

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### I said agriculture is the backbone of my 1


### community. Leprino makes cheese in my hometown, 2



### and that factor employs over 400 people. Morgan 3


### County is th e home to over 40,000 cows milking. 4


### I don't know how many maids a'milking are 5


### employed, but I know it takes a lot of 6


### electricity to keep those cows productive and 7



### that plant open. 8



### We also process some 3,500 head of cattle 9


### daily in Fort Morgan, and we hav e a 100

- year

- old 10


### tradition of making sugar from sugar beets. Like 11


### I said, my community, like many others in 12


### Colorado, depend on agriculture. If you close 13


### the plants that supply our electricity 14



### prematurely, and make us pay for those stranded 15



### resources and build additional plants to provide 16


### us with the electricity we need, I can assure you 17


### those costs will go up. Food costs to feed this 18


### nation will go up. Family farmers will see very 19



### little return on investment, and we will see more 20


### people moving off the land and into the cities. 21

22

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### Recently, White House Advisor John 1


### Podesta was quoted saying, "Additional actions 2


### will be added to the ag sector to make the U.S. 3


### food supply more resilient to climate change." 4


### Your guess is probably better than mine about 5



### what that means. In the same report, Energy 6


### Secretary Ernest Moniz will soon unveil a series 7



### of actions to reduce methane emissions. Now, we 8


### all know ag is responsible for a lot of methane 9



### emissions. I'm not sure what kind of series of 10


### actions he's talking about. 11



### While all these measures to reduce 12


### greenhouse gases may be at the top of the list, 13


### and certainly should be, let's make sure that 14


### this does not overburden America's most important 15


### sector, and that's agriculture. 16



### Thank you. 17



### MS BROWN: Mr. Nelsen? 18


### MR. NELSEN: My name is Ron Nelsen, R

- o

- n 19



### N

- e

- l

- s

- e

- n. Hello and thank you for this 20


### opportunity to speak to the public record. 21


### Again, my name is Ron Nelsen, and I live 22

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### and own and operate a small business, Pioneer 1


### Overhead Door, in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm married 2


### to Jessica, and together with our children, ages 3


### 10 and 8, we are a family of four. As a business 4



### owner, father, and Nevadan, I understand how 5


### climate disruption is impacting our economy, our 6



### communities and our environment. I know that 7



### Nevad a is spending millions of dollars cleaning 8


### up after climate

- induced problems instead of 9


### investing that money in small business 10


### development, worker training, and attracting more 11



### businesses to our state. 12


### I also know that public health costs put 13



### a stress on business owners. The more carbon 14


### pollution we have in our atmosphere, the more 15


### people are at risk of asthma, cardiovascular 16


### disease, or even premature death. Those who are 17



### sick cannot work, which also lowers business 18


### productivity and generates additional health care 19



### costs. As a Nevadan, I've seen our state suffer 20


### from the worst drought of our time, more several 21


### wildfires, and a depletion of our water 22

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### resources. I love my state and I admire its 1


### beauty, and I don't want our environment in 2



### Nevada to be des troyed. 3



### However, I'm pleased to report that 4


### because of recent bipartisan legislation in 5


### Nevada, 25 percent of our energy sector will be 6


### run from clean sources by 2025, and the Reid 7



### Gardner Power Plant, coal plant, the largest coal 8


### plant in Nevada, is on t rack to retire by 2017. 9


### This retirement is due, in large part, to a 10


### diverse group of stakeholders and community 11


### members working together with elected officials 12



### to move Nevada towards a cleaner, safer energy 13



### economy. 14


### Had it not been for the engagement of the 15


### community, Senate Bill 123 likely would not have 16


### passed. The passage of SB123 reminds me of 17


### growing up in Nebraska, and sitting at a 18


### stoplight behind an idling car. I can still 19



### remember what tail exhaust looked like and 20



### smelled like in the 1960s and 1970s. Had it not 21


### been for elected officials and engaged citizens 22

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### coming together, we would not have made great 1


### progress in the field of fuel economy and 2


### emissions, while also stimulating our economy. 3


### Working together, problems can be fixed. 4



### I am proud of my state and my fellow 5


### business owners. We are moving away from the 6


### highest polluting resources and investing in 7



### workers and small businesses that are involved in 8


### the clean energy industry. 9



### There are currently more than 80 solar 10


### companies at work thro ughout the value chain in 11


### Nevada, employing 2,400 or so people. These 12


### companies provide a wide variety of solar 13


### products and services, ranging from solar system 14


### installations to the manufacturing of components 15


### used in photovoltaic panels. 16


### More importantl y, as a father of two 17


### children, I don't want my kids to be left with a 18


### sick planet. I don't want them to be sickened by 19


### a sick planet. Our young people, including my 20



### children, will be left with the burdens of 21


### climate disruption we will put on Nevada, 22

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### Ame rica, and the world, and the costs of picking 1


### up pieces of more frequent climate disasters. 2



### Now, at this crossroads of environmental 3


### policy, I am asking the Environmental Protection 4


### Agency, as a small business owner, as a father, 5



### and a Nevadan, for strong carbon standards to 6



### protect our state and the country from the worst 7


### of climate disruption, and I thank you. 8


### MS. BROWN: Thank you both. I'm going to 9


### apologize for this one, because I'm trying to 10


### read handwriting and pronounce, but the next set 11



### of speak ers is Chris Menges and William Green. 12



### MR. GREEN: I'll Will Green and I come 13


### from Phoenix, Arizona. Thank you, EPA, for your 14



### hard work on the Clean Power Plan. I really 15


### appreciate it. 16


### Like I said, I live in Phoenix. I grew 17


### up in the Pacific Northwe st, and a few winters 18


### ago I was hanging out with my mom in her kitchen, 19


### which overlooks the Puget Sound. It was an 20


### extremely beautiful spot. You know, you've got 21


### eagles swooping around all the time, massive 22

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### evergreen trees everywhere, and in the winterti me 1


### the tide comes up a little bit higher than other 2


### seasons, and so it's starting to lap over my 3


### parents' bulkhead a little bit, into the lawn. 4


### So I asked my mom, "What's the elevation 5


### of the kitchen here?" expecting her to say 4 or 5 6



### or 6 meters, and he r response was, "One foot." 7


### My parents' kitchen is 1 foot above high tide in 8


### the wintertime, and, at this point in my life, I 9


### realize climate change is the issue of my 10


### generation, and I think of humanity, to be 11


### honest. So that's when it literally hit hom e to 12


### me, that this issue, the decisions we're making 13


### today are going to directly affect my family's 14


### economic security. 15


### Expanding it out to the rest of the 16


### world, you look at a country like Bangladesh. 17


### The whole place is basically a flood plain. 18



### There a re island nations that are already 19


### evacuating, essentially, due to sea level rise. 20


### And consider what happened to the world 21


### economy with just subprime mortgages, brought the 22

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### world economy to its knees. What's going to 1



### happen when waterfront property val ues plummet? 2



### This is an almost unbelievable level of economic 3


### impact. 4


### And so I just want to say thank you and 5


### we cannot afford inaction. The world is counting 6


### on America to lead on this issue, so let's get to 7



### it. 8



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. 9



### MR. MENGES: Hi. My name is Chris 10



### Menges. That's M

- e

- n

- g

- e

- s. I'm a climate 11


### energy and greenhouse gas analyst representing 12


### the City of Aspen. We appreciate the opportunity 13


### to present testimony here today and to share some 14


### of the reason that the city supports EPA in 15


### finalizing, implementing, and enforcing the Clean 16



### Power Plan. 17


### Aspen's support is based on our 18


### obligation to protect and maintain the viability 19


### of our local and regional economy and 20


### environment, and safeguard human health. Our 21



### tourism

- dependent economy r elies directly on 22

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### sustainable climate conditions. If the impacts 1


### that we are already seeing, like reduced snowpack 2


### and stream flows and more frequent and intense 3


### drought and wildfires continue unabated, the 4


### foundation of our way of life and economic 5



### viabi lity will be challenged and could possibly 6



### erode. 7


### Since 1940, we have already experience a 8



### 2

- degree Fahrenheit increase in temperature, 9


### accompanied by numerous associated impacts. A 10



### recent Aspen

- specific climate assessment revealed 11



### that, like the rest of the world, the disparity 12


### of climate impacts for our region is directly 13


### tied to emissions trajectories. As such, 14



### business

- as

- usual emissions are unacceptable for 15



### us. 16


### Accordingly, in 2004, Aspen City Council 17


### adopted CO2 reduction goals of 30 percent bel ow 18



### 2004 levels by 2020 and 80 percent below those 19


### levels by 2050. Additionally, we operate a 20


### municipal electric utility which will source 100 21


### percent of its power from renewable resources by 22

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### 2015. While the actions that Aspen has taken on 1



### the path to mee ting our own CO2 reduction goals 2


### have improved the quality of life for residents 3


### and visitors, we know that they are not enough to 4


### address climate change. For that, binding CO2 5


### limits on future and existing EGUs are necessary 6



### on a national and internationa l scale. 7


### Aspen's support for the implementation of 8


### this rule is therefore a request that EPA help 9


### safeguard our economy and way of life. The City 10


### believes that the regulations are a necessary, 11



### flexible, achievable, fair, and cost

- effective 12


### step in the right direction. Further, we are 13



### confident that the finalization of the rule would 14


### provide a greater chance of negotiating 15



### international commitments. 16


### Aspen is pleased that the U.S. Supreme 17


### Court has three times affirmed EPA's authority to 18



### regulate unde r the Clean Air Act. Because a 19



### state

- by

- state approach has been used repeatedly 20



### and successfully to reduce other pollutants, we 21



### are pleased that the EPA proposes to allow each 22

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### state to achieve its own emission reduction 1


### target within certain guideline and criteria, 2



### however it sees fit. 3


### It is important that EPA takes steps to 4


### ensure that both the interim and 2030 targets are 5


### met in a meaningful and measurable way. For 6


### Colorado, we're confident that the 2030 target of 7



### minus

- 35 percent CO2 is achievable and , in fact, 8


### quite modest. If this state's renewables and 9


### efficiency deployment continue growing at current 10


### rates, we could likely surpass this goal. 11


### A significant part of the City of Aspen's 12



### support for the proposed rule comes from our 13


### ongoing experience in diversifying and de

14


### carbonizing our electricity resources. 15


### Currently, our municipal electric utilities 16


### generation portfolio contains approximately 80 17



### percent renewables, yet we have the seventh 18


### lowest residential electricity rates in the 19



### states, amongs t communities. 20



### Our rates are also lower than those of 21



### most Colorado co

- ops and IOUs. Investments in 22

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### renewables in efficiency by former and current 1


### city leaders have not only benefitted the 2


### environment. They have also insulated us against 3



### the inherent volatilities of fossil fuel markets 4


### and prices, prices that should only increase as 5


### their true cost to society begins to be 6



### monetized. 7


### I'd like to close my remarks by sharing 8


### Aspen's confidence that the Clean Power Plan 9



### would eventually save consumers mon ey, improve 10


### public health, and reduce greenhouse gas 11


### emissions. The EPA estimates that electricity 12


### bills would be 8 percent lower by 2030 and that 13


### the plan will generate $7 in health benefits for 14


### every $1 invested, similar to America's 15


### experience with the Clean Air Act since 1970. 16



### When we consider the added benefits and 17


### criteria pollutant reductions and cost avoidance 18


### from climate impact mitigation, the Clean Power 19


### Plan is a great deal at the right time, and the 20


### City of Aspen is proud to encourage its tim ely 21


### implementation. 22

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### Thanks for the opportunity to share our 1


### support with you today, and for the important and 2


### beneficial work that EPA is doing. 3



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 4


### speakers are Peggy Rollins and Timothy Lindahl. 5


### You can go ahead Ms. Li ndahl, I mean Ms. Rollins. 6



### I'm sorry. 7


### MS. ROLLINS: My name is Peggy Rollins. 8



### I'm from Grand Junction, Colorado. It's not on? 9


### Oh. Thank you. I'm Peggy Rollins from Grand 10



### Junction, Colorado, and I'm a member of Citizens 11



### for Clean Air. 12



### The new carbon pollution standards 13


### announced by the EPA represent a great beginning 14


### in the fight for national climate action. The 15


### scientific reports by the International Panel on 16


### Climate Change state that governments around the 17


### world must act boldly to reduce emissions , since 18


### they are rising at twice the rate this century 19


### than during the last decades of the 20th. So 20


### along with EPA's new Tier 3 standards to reduce 21



### smog

- forming emissions from the gas

- powered cars 22

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### and trucks, finalized in March, we have an 1


### opportunity to make our air cleaner and 2



### healthier. 3


### Besides reducing the sulfur content of 4


### the gasoline, these standards will help the 5


### emissions control work, effectively cutting 6


### nitrogen oxide from these vehicles, and, in the 7


### process, helping to prevent asthma attacks
, 8


### hospital admissions, and other health problems. 9


### Additionally, they will help create more jobs 10


### over 3 years, and new equipment installation in 11



### oil refineries and the maintenance of this 12


### equipment. 13


### Speaking of jobs in Colorado, the grid 14



### alternative's bus iness, with volunteer help, is 15


### installing solar panels in the homes of people 16


### unable to afford them, allowing these homeowners 17


### to pay grid alternatives, 2 cents per kilowatt, 18


### for energy produced, and save $500 or more on 19


### electricity each year. Grid began in California 20



### and now both Coloradans and Californians have the 21


### opportunity to use clean, renewable energy to 22

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### lower their bills and breathe cleaner air. 1


### The Colorado Energy Office granted grid 2


### money to launch this new business this year. 3



### Part of this mis sion is to provide solar job 4


### training for workers, both paid and volunteer. 5


### So this is a business that is helping to lower 6



### carbon emissions. 7


### Wind energy companies are growing in 8


### Colorado and have expectations of adding 1,00 9



### more workers in four Colorado cities, which is a 10


### definite plus to help reduce carbon pollution 11


### while also strengthening the economy. We, in 12



### Colorado, voted 10 years ago to adopt Amendment 13


### 27, which established the country's first citizen 14


### initiative renewal energy standard, requiring t he 15


### largest utilities to obtain 10 percent of their 16


### electric energy from clean, renewable sources by 17



### 2015. 18


### In 2010, the Colorado Legislature 19


### increased the renewable energy standard to 20


### require utilities in the state to achieve 30 21



### percent renewable energy by 2020. The rural 22

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### legislators agreed and they've supported an 1


### increase in the rural renewable energy standard 2



### to 20 percent by 2020. In 2014, Colorado 3


### approved the strongest air pollution and methane 4


### standards for the oil and gas industry in the 5



### United States, so reducing emissions has been 6



### repeatedly supported by our voters. 7


### Power plants are responsible for 40 8


### percent, at least, of carbon pollution. In 9


### Colorado, 64 percent of our electricity still 10



### comes from coal

- burning power plants, so this 11



### first federal limit on carbon pollution is an 12


### essential step toward a cleaner, healthier 13



### country. 14


### Agriculture is important to our way of 15



### life in Colorado, and for our farms, ranches, and 16


### orchards here, a high carbon pollution increases 17


### temperatures and higher ground

- level ozone 18


### levels, which reduce crop yields and quality of 19



### the harvest. 20



### For these, and many other reasons, we 21


### urge passage of the new federal carbon pollution 22

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### standards. Thank you very much for holding this 1


### hearing. 2



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Lindahl? 3



### MR. LINDAHL: yes. Good afternoon. 4


### Timothy J. Lindahl, L

- i

- n

- d

- a

- h

- l. I'm the Chief 5


### Executive Officer and General Manager of Wheat 6


### Belt Public Power District in Sidney, Nebraska, 7


### and I'm appearing on behalf of the majority of 8



### the electrical co nsumers that we serve. 9



### I would like to thank the EPA for 10


### allowing us the opportunity to provide our 11


### thoughts and concerns on this proposed rule. 12


### Wheat Belt is opposed to this rule in its current 13


### form because of many concerns, but some of which 14



### I'll note in the following. 15



### Wheat Belt Public Power District is an 16



### at

- cost rural electric distribution provider that 17


### serves approximately 5,000 electric meters in a 18


### 3,600 square mile area of Nebraska. Wheat Belt 19


### receives its power from Colorado

- based Tri

- State 20



### Gen eration and Transmission, and is a member of 21


### the National Rural Electric Cooperative 22

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### Association. 1


### The majority of our services are 2


### agricultural

- based, including a large share of 3


### irrigated land for food and ethanol production. 4


### Because we provide our prod uct at cost, every 5


### additional cost that we incur must be passed on 6



### to our customer. The nature of this model has 7


### incentivized us to naturally create energy 8


### efficiency and conservation programs over our 9


### nearly 70 years of existence, and these programs 10



### are ones that make sense to our customers, 11


### reducing their costs and not adding to it We 12


### feel that based on the diversity of electrical 13


### providers, this should continue to be our rule 14



### and not that of the EPA. 15



### Many of our customers do not have the 16


### ability to use other forms of energy in their 17


### homes and businesses because we are very rural, 18


### and therefore they rely fully on electricity to 19


### meet their needs. Raising costs on electricity 20


### would unfairly hurt those people that cannot 21



### utilize other fuels, such as nat ural gas, to heat 22

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### their homes or run their pumps. Should the price 1


### of our product go up more than that of competing 2


### fields, such as diesel fuel, it is our opinion 3


### that we would likely see more irrigation pumps 4


### burning diesel to pump their water rather tha n 5


### electrically, theoretically being less emissions

6


### friendly than our current product mix. 7


### Because we are based in agriculture, our 8


### delivered product helps sequester a great deal of 9


### CO2, for which we are not given credit. A 10


### Michigan State University study indicates that 11



### for every acre of corn, 0.4 to 0.6 tons per acre

12


### year of CO2 equivalent are long

- term sequestered. 13


### In 2012, Nebraska had nearly 1 million acres of 14


### corn in production. 15



### Add to this the creation of ethanol, as 16


### well as other crops grown wit h our product, and 17



### we sequester a great deal of CO2. Adversely 18


### affecting the price of our product will lead to 19



### economic choices to reduce the amount of 20


### irrigated land, offsetting much of the CO2 21


### reduction benefits that may occur from the 22

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### regulation of our existing plants. 1


### Our rural economies rely heavily on the 2


### coal industry. A University of Nebraska study 3


### shows that the existing coal industry generates 4


### $4.9 billion in economic output annually, and 5


### provides 22,800 good, full

- time jobs for our 6



### state. Coa l use offsets $142 million in taxes 7


### annually. Reduction in this tax revenue would be 8


### passed on to our consumers, in addition to the 9


### increased energy prices. Reducing the coal 10


### industry will have a large economic impact to our 11


### state, beyond other utility c osts. Rural 12


### communities that are already struggling will be 13


### further hurt by this rule, especially with 14



### decisions that are made in other states. 15


### We currently enjoy a balanced energy 16


### portfolio from Tri

- State. We utilize carbon

- free 17


### sources of generation, such as wind, solar, and 18


### hydro, and are increasing those all the time. We 19


### also use natural gas and coal. This system 20


### provides us with a very reliable and efficient 21


### portfolio. Although Wheat Belt's generation is 22

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### originated outside of the state of Nebrask a, our 1


### customers will be at the mercy of another state's 2


### plan to comply with this rule. A neighboring 3



### state could take a look at these resources 4


### serving out

- of

- state, and utilize those to meet 5


### their requirements, passing that cost on to our 6



### customers and not those of the state. 7


### This could also have unintended impacts 8


### to organized markets across state borders, giving 9


### states an unfair advantage, based on the 10


### differing requirements and differing generation 11



### mixes. 12


### Reliability is of the utmost concern with 13


### this rule. When this rule negatively impacts the 14


### reliability of the electric grid, we will be the 15


### ones responsible and held accountable, not the 16



### EPA. 17


### Thank you again for the opportunity to 18


### provide these comments, and we are opposed to 19



### this rule in its cu rrent form. 20


### MS. BROWN: Thank you, and you cited a 21


### couple of studies. Could you submit those to the 22

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### docket? 1



### MR. LINDAHL: I sure could. 2



### MS. BROWN: Great. Thank you. Our next 3


### set of speakers are Jonathan Singer and Carol 4


### Sturman. Mr. Singer, you can go ahead. 5



### MR. SINGER: Good afternoon. Thank you, 6


### members, for joining us in Colorado. My name is 7


### Jonathan Singer, and I am the Colorado House 8


### State Representative for House District 11, which 9


### covers Longmont, Niwot, Lyons, and Allenspark. 10


### Basically, if you go an hour north of here, 11


### you're there, and then if you go an hour west, 12


### towards Rocky Mountain National Park, you're also 13



### there. 14


### I have the unique distinction of actually 15


### being able to represent three different types of 16


### electric power production h ere in Colorado. We 17


### have municipally generated, which is in Longmont. 18



### We also have Xcel Power, and then I also have a 19


### rural electric cooperative in my district, so you 20


### can imagine the fun I get at the Capitol when we 21



### have renewable energy standards to de bate. 22

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### I'm here to testify in favor of the 1


### proposed rules, in large part due to what I've 2


### been able to see here in Colorado, in my own 3



### House district, in House District 11. We have 4


### had the opportunity, in Colorado, since really 5



### 2004, to see increases in o ur renewable energy 6



### standards, and we heard a lot of the same 7



### concerns, and we've responded to those concerns 8


### by moving aggressively but responsibly, and I 9


### think that's exactly what the EPA needs to do, as 10



### well. 11


### Even last year, in a rancorous debate 12



### relat ing to our increase in the renewable energy 13


### standard for rural electric cooperatives, we put 14


### in safeguards to make sure that consumer prices 15



### wouldn't exceed a 2

- percent increase every year, 16



### and we also, when we looked at the numbers, saw 17



### that even farmers were going to see increases 18


### more than $20 to $40 per month, in most cases. 19


### So we need to balance our economy with 20



### our environment. That's what we've done in 21



### Colorado, but we can't do it alone. We know that 22

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### this is really a national and international 1



### iss ue, and that's why I'm here today, is because, 2


### as much as we can continue to do good work in 3


### Colorado, we're really going to need the Federal 4


### Government to step up and work collaboratively 5


### with other states, including our own, to make 6



### sure that we can reac h new standards and set the 7


### bar even higher. 8


### Colorado is known as a renewable energy 9


### Mecca. You have not only multinational 10


### corporations investing in our communities here, 11


### but you have startups that are either spun off 12


### from University of Colorado and CS U or individual 13


### entrepreneurs, all stepping up. 14


### Last but not least, coming from the 15


### community of Longmont and Lyons, we are the 16


### unfortunate victims of extreme global climate 17


### change. Boulder County has seen fires, it's seen 18


### floods, it's seen drought. All of these things 19


### will continue with extreme global climate change, 20



### which is the scientific consensus now, and it 21


### will continue in a way that will show extreme 22

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### weather events. Imagine what it was like for a 1


### small business in Lyons to remain closed for 60 2



### d ays because of a roadblock set up by the 3


### National Guard, due to extreme damage done by 4


### floods, with raw sewage floating. 5


### These kinds of events can only be 6


### prevented through national efforts, and that's 7


### why I believe what you're doing and what the EPA 8



### is proposing is so important. Like I said, we've 9



### seen fires, we've seen floods, we've seen 10



### droughts. All of these are preventable

-- not 11



### 100 percent, but we can prevent them. 12



### So, for the sake of our economy and for 13



### the sake of our environment, and for the sake of 14


### our national security, I encourage you to move 15



### forward, and to do like what we've done in 16


### Colorado, in moving aggressively but responsibly 17


### in working with our communities, both urban, 18


### rural, and municipal, just like I get to do in my 19



### House Distric t 11. 20



### Thank you. 21



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Ms. Sturman? 22

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### MS. STURMAN: Hi. Carol Sturman, S

- t

- u

1



### r

- m

- a

- n. I'm Chairman and President of Sturman 2


### Industries, a Colorado company that started in 3


### California. Thank you for being here, and for 4


### the opportunity t o speak. 5



### First of all, as a resident of Colorado, 6



### I moved to Woodland Park, Colorado, and in 17 7


### years we enjoyed wonderful climate and weather, 8


### and nature that my company is helping preserve, 9


### but because of the fires, I've been cut off many, 10


### many, many ti mes because the mountain pass that 11


### goes up to our place now has flooding that's 12


### extreme. It's killed people. Fires have taken 13



### out, I think, 600 or 700 homes in the last 2 to 3 14


### years, and now we have terrible flooding that's 15


### cutting off our community. So just on a personal 16


### note, we're seeing the results of it. 17


### My company is designed to address this, 18


### and I want to brief you on what's possible and 19


### show support for it, because we have data from 20



### California related to efficiencies that are even 21


### higher than yo u probably know of, and it can add 22

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### to the case that it can be practical, affordable, 1



### and viable, and it doesn't have to raise the cost 2


### of rural communities. In fact, it can help them. 3


### We are a technology innovator. We have 4



### technology that NASA has recom mended. It is 5


### space technology, and our key innovator is Eddie 6



### Sturman, who will talk after me. He has 175 7


### patents, and counting, and when I was first 8



### introduced to him, I was told he was one of 9


### America's greatest natural resources. 10



### I would like to ac tually suggest that 11


### this is a person who has studied how to modernize 12


### mechanical things, like electronics had 13



### modernized, to make them efficient, clean, and 14


### green, and use renewable technologies. He is 15


### available to be a consultant at any time, if 16



### that's s omething that the EPA would like. He's 17


### had programs. We've had program with EPA, 18


### California Energy Commission, California Air 19


### Resources Board, Japan, the European Union. We 20


### have expertise around energy that doesn't exist 21


### anywhere else in the world. 22

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### CAR B did a study, a year

- long study to 1


### pass AB32, their CO2 law, and they listed 2


### technologies that allow CO2 improvement, and it 3


### all goes around the area that we work in, that we 4


### can share information with you on, around 5


### internal combustion engine efficiency. They can 6


### be much more efficient than they are today. They 7


### can change your equations, improve them, and get 8


### even higher than 30 percent, and this can be done 9


### in stationary power, distributed power, central 10


### power, as well as shipping and transportation 11



### tr ucks, on

- road and off

- road. 12


### So Eddie will share with you some of the 13



### information, but what we've seen is it can be 14


### even better than you think, and the costs can 15



### actually be reduced for users, because the 16


### efficiency can be so high, simply by modernizing 17


### the controls and not by going to some crazy thing 18


### that doesn't exist yet that needs to be invented. 19



### And it can also enable

-- an important thing is 20


### enabling alternative fuels

-- new fuels, clean 21



### fuels, even carbon

- free fuels. All of that is 22

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### possible. Yo u shouldn't give up. The U.N. 1


### reports are compelling. What we're experiencing 2


### here in Colorado is compelling. We completely 3


### believe in it, and support it, and can help you 4


### in any way that you may want. 5



### Thank you. 6



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. And you 7



### refer enced some technical information. If you 8



### could submit that to the docket, it would be 9



### helpful. 10



### MS. STURMAN: I'll be happy to. 11



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. 12



### MS. STURMAN: Thank you. 13



### MS. BROWN: Our next two speakers are 14


### Eddie Sturman and Jessica Langerman. Go ahead, 15



### Mr. Sturman. 16



### MR. STURMAN: Okay. How come there's no 17


### light going on? 18



### MS. BROWN: She's got to

-- if you could 19



### turn the other one off, it should work. 20



### MR. STURMAN: Can you hear me? 21



### MS. BROWN: Yes. 22

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### MR. STURMAN: Okay. Thank you. Eddie 1



### Stu rman, S

- t

- u

- r

- m

- a

- n. I'm Carol's husband. 2


### Thank you, Carol, for the introduction, but you 3



### took half of my speech away. 4


### I'm going to talk about the technology. 5



### There are solutions. We have the solutions. 6


### What we need to do is implement it, and to 7


### impl ement it, we need to understand why we got to 8


### this problem to begin with. Why are we even 9


### here? Well, technology and economics go together 10


### in this case, because the people that are 11


### producing electricity are making money. They 12



### don't want to change. 13



### I'v e been working at this for 30 years, 14


### showing how, through efficiency, we can make 15


### smart engines that can optimize themselves for 16


### any fuel, why not start with coal or diesel or 17


### natural gas, but we need smart engines, so 18


### instead of just talking about fuels, we need to 19



### talk about how do we burn the fuel more 20


### economically, so they don't pollute. 21


### The key to the whole thing is that 22

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### engines have been around for over 100 years. 1


### They are mechanically controlled, so it's very 2


### limited, because, mechanically, you can not adjust 3



### the different conditions of different fields. 4


### So, even the vocabulary that we have is the wrong 5


### vocabulary. We think that an engine and a fuel 6



### have to go together. It's not true. 7


### Visualize an engine that's smart enough 8


### that you can put in it any fuel, existing or ones 9


### that are new and clean. The engine will know 10


### what you put in it, change all the parameters 11


### from one cycle to another. Just imagine what 12


### could happen. It will change everything. We can 13



### be more efficient, more economical, an d 14


### definitely more clean. 15


### We definitely support what the EPA is 16


### doing. We've been working with the EPA in the 17


### past. We have facilities to prove that 18


### everything that I'm saying is real. 19


### So, maybe talk about a couple of things 20


### before my time is up. So, other than we need to 21


### have new fuels, not just the ones that have been 22

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### around. We also need to have engines that are 1


### modified. The only thing you need to change in 2


### an internal combustion engine is the controls. 3



### Electronic controls

-- we have them. We' ve had 4


### the space program with a lot of technology. It's 5


### not implemented. It needs to be implemented. 6


### All the goals that you are looking for are very 7


### achievable. I believe they can be even better. 8


### One of the things that I think is crucial 9


### is to change the big power stations to 10


### distributed energy. Just generating electricity 11


### in very large facilities, and taking them miles 12


### away is wrong. It's inefficient. You've got 13


### technology that you can generate electricity 14



### truly locally, even maybe at the house lev el, 15


### using fuels that don't have carbon to begin with. 16



### When we talk about percentages, we can 17


### reduce something by 30 percent. Why not 100 18


### percent? Why not start without carbon in the 19



### fuel? 20


### I can see that my time up and I can talk 21


### hours, so I'm going t o quit, but thank you for 22

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### doing what you're doing. I think it's great, and 1


### you can have our support any time. 2



### MS. BROWN: Thank you for your statement. 3



### Ms. Langerman? 4



### MS. LANGERMAN: Thank you. 5



### MR. RISLEY: Oh, we need to turn that one 6



### off. Sorry. 7



### M S. LANGERMAN: Okay. Thank you very 8


### much. My name is Jessica Langerman, L

- a

- n

- g

- e

- r

9



### m

- a

- n. I'm the President of Climate Exchange, 10


### which is a group of citizen activists drawn from 11


### environmental and business groups in 12



### Massachusetts. We believe a carbon t ax is viable 13



### in Massachusetts, and our mission is to build the 14


### political will to enact it. 15



### In January of 2013, Massachusetts State 16



### Senator Michael Barrett and Massachusetts 17


### Representative Tom Conroy submitted carbon tax 18


### legislation, H.2532, an act relativ e to shifting 19


### from carbon emissions to transportation 20



### investment. To determine whether or not our 21


### group could support their legislation, we needed 22

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### hard data. For this reason, we decided to 1


### commission a report by REMI, or Regional Economic 2



### Models, modelin g out Senator Barrett and 3


### Representative Conroy's proposal. 4



### We wanted to know if a carbon tax could 5


### be implemented on the state level that would meet 6


### four goals. It would improve the state's GDP, it 7


### would increase the number of jobs in 8



### Massachusetts, i t would significantly reduce 9



### emissions, and it would do all of this while 10


### protecting the poor. 11


### We chose REMI because they are a premier 12


### econometric firm, employed not only by 13


### municipalities and states wishing to determine 14


### the impact of a particular propos ed fiscal 15


### policy, but also by the oil, gas, and nuclear 16



### industries. Their work is renowned for its lack 17


### of ideological bias. 18


### The result of this study, which I will 19


### submit to you, were astonishing. REMI 20


### demonstrated that a primarily revenue

- neutral 21



### carbo n tax could be constructed for Massachusetts 22

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### in such a way as to meet all four of our goals. 1


### In fact, if Massachusetts were to implement such 2


### a tax, at $45 per metric ton of CO2, by 2024, we 3


### could increase our state GDP by $450 million a 4


### year, add an addi tion 11,000 jobs, and reduce 5


### emissions to 82 percent of 1990 levels. This is 6


### more than the EPA goals envision, and it puts the 7


### lie to the old canard that what is good for the 8


### environment must necessarily be bad for the 9



### economy. 10



### It is also clear that a re venue

- neutral 11


### carbon tax can be used in conjunction with our 12


### regional greenhouse gas initiative, the regional 13


### cap and trade system in New England. In fact, it 14


### would serve as a reinforcing mechanism. 15


### Senator Barrett invited the study's 16



### senior economist, S cott Nystrom, to present his 17


### findings at the Statehouse in July of 2013. We 18



### expected about 20 attendees; 110 people showed 19



### up. We had to lock 30 people out of the room for 20


### fire safety reasons. The results of that report 21


### and the presentation were on the front page of 22

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### the Boston Globe and in multiple other media 1


### outlets, including NPR. 2


### Since our study hit the press, we have 3


### been contacted by business, civic, labor, health, 4


### faith, environmental, and funding organizations, 5


### asking us how they can help. Our group now 6


### includes members of the Citizens Climate Lobby, 7


### 350, the League of Women Voters, environmental 8



### entrepreneurs

-- the list goes on. These groups 9


### stand ready to mobilize hundreds of people to 10


### help with moving this bill. Indeed, if you had 11



### had this hearing in Boston, we would've packed 12



### the halls. 13



### Furthermore, three out of the six 14


### gubernatorial candidates have endorsed the idea 15



### of a revenue

- neutral carbon tax, as the direct 16


### result of our lobbying. The Massachusetts 17



### Department of Energy Resources ha s now 18


### commissioned its own REMI study to determine not 19



### if a state

- level carbon tax is feasible but how 20


### best to implement such a carbon tax. That is how 21


### far we have come in only a year. 22

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### Now, the EPA has given us a clear goal, 1


### but your definition of emissi ons standards stands 2


### in our way. It creates uncertainty. It's 3


### unlikely that any state, including Massachusetts, 4


### will want to take on the cost of passing 5


### legislation, writing regulations, and making 6


### necessary economic changes when the EPA itself 7



### could, in the end, reject our proposed state 8


### implementation plan. Given the progress that we 9


### have made, and given that all the tax breaks 10


### considered would significantly reduce carbon, 11


### it's reasonable for us to ask for a clear, legal 12



### answer. 13


### Please change the defi nition of emissions 14


### standards to explicitly allow the use of a carbon 15


### tax on greenhouse gas emissions from power plants 16


### and other sources. Make a carbon tax an explicit 17


### part of the tool bag you are allowing states to 18


### use by modifying the definition of emi ssions 19



### standards. Help us help you, so we can do our 20


### job of creating the political will to pass carbon 21


### tax legislation in our state. 22

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### Thank you. 1



### MS. BROWN: Thank you so much. The next 2


### speakers are Jack Kegel and William Black. Mr. 3



### Kegel, you can go ah ead. 4



### MR. KEGEL: Good afternoon. I'm Jack 5



### Kegel. 6


### ATTENDEE: Microphone. 7



### MR. KEGEL: Better? Good afternoon. I'm 8



### Jack Kegel, K

- e

- g

- e

- l, of the Minnesota Municipal 9


### Utilities Association. We represent 125 10


### municipal electric utilities in Minnesota, and 11


### anyway, have submitted written comments this 12


### afternoon and my colleague, Bill Black, and I 13


### will both be speaking from those comments. 14


### My first point concerns the widely 15


### divergent state goals produced by the rule, even 16


### among neighboring states. Minnesota has to 17



### achieve a 41

- percent reduction from 2012 levels, 18


### while Iowa is assigned a 16

- percent reduction, 19


### and North Dakota only 11 percent. The actions 20


### required to achieve these reductions all have 21



### substantial costs, so consumers in Minnesota will 22

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### have to b ear a much higher financial burden than 1


### consumers in most of our neighboring states. 2


### We do appreciate the difficulty of 3


### designing a nationwide program, but we also 4


### believe that it should be possible to modify the 5


### design of the program so as to place state s on a 6


### more equal footing. 7


### The next point concerns the fair 8



### treatment of early adopters. The proposed rule 9



### places an undue burden on early adopter states by 10


### not treating actions that result in reduced 11


### emissions of CO2 prior to 2020 on an equal 12


### footing wi th those that take place in 2020 or 13


### later. The goal of the rule is to achieve CO2 14


### emission reductions from the power sector of 15


### approximately 30 percent from 2005 levels. 16


### Ideally, all actions that reduce CO2 17


### emissions from the power sector during the pe riod 18


### from 2005 to 2030 should be given equal weight, 19


### to the degree possible. According to Table 6 in 20


### the proposed rule, Minnesota generation was 18 21



### renewable in 2012. Most of that renewable 22

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### generation was added after 2005, and it should be 1



### treated the sa me as renewable generation added in 2



### 2025. 3



### The proposed rule seems to be based on 4


### the assumption that most of the activity to 5


### reduce CO2 emissions will take place after 2020, 6


### and doesn't recognize that many states have 7



### renewable energy standards and/or ene rgy 8


### efficiency requirements in place that will result 9


### in substantial reductions in CO2 from the power 10


### sector prior to the 2020

- 2030 period that the 11



### rule is built around. 12


### In Minnesota, for example, Building 13


### Blocks 3 and 4 of the proposed rule were put in 14



### p lace by our legislature in 2007, so we'll have 15



### 23 years of a renewable energy standard and a 16


### very stringent energy efficiency requirement 17


### behind us by 2030. Similarly, many power 18


### providers likely have plans to retire fossil fuel 19


### units or bring on renewabl e units prior to 2020. 20


### There is no logical reason to treat these 21



### actions different than similar actions taken 22

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### during the 2020

- 2030 period. In order to provide 1


### some measure of fairness for early adopter states 2


### and mitigate the wide variation in individu al 3


### state goals, the interim period should be 4



### extended to a 15

- year period, beginning in 2015 5


### and extending through 2030. If it doesn't work 6



### to do that for all states, we would suggest that 7



### the 15

- year interim period could be provided as 8


### an option for earl y adopter states. 9


### States should be permitted to include in 10


### their plans steps already in place that further 11


### the purpose of the rule. Our recommendation will 12


### allow actions taken in the next 5 years to 13


### receive equal treatment with actions taken after 14



### 2020. 15


### The final point that I will address 16


### concerns adjustment of Minnesota coal generation 17



### to account for Sherco 3. Minnesota's newest and 18



### most efficient coal

- fired power unit, the 884

- 19


### megawatt Sherco 3 plant was offline during all of 20


### 2012, due to a major ou tage. Minnesota's coal 21


### generation data used in developing the rule is 22

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### therefore abnormally low and must be adjusted to 1


### include the energy produced by Sherco 3 in a 2


### typical year. Based on our preliminary 3


### calculations, including typical generation from 4



### She rco 3 in the baseline, reduces a substantial 5


### change in Minnesota's interim and final goals. 6


### Mr. Black will address our remaining 7


### points. Thank you for your time. 8



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Black? 9


### You've got to turn the other microphone off to 10



### get that one on. 11


### MR. BLACK: Good afternoon. My name is 12



### William Black, B

- l

- a

- c

- k, and I'm also with 13


### Minnesota Municipal Utilities Association, and 14


### will continue with the comments we've brought 15



### before you today. 16


### Operating combined cycle plants at a 70

- 17



### percent ca pacity factor may not be feasible over 18


### the long term. We have very serious concerns 19


### about EPA's proposal to redispatch combined

- cycle 20



### plants to operate at an average 70

- percent 21


### capacity factor. Based on the experience of 22

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### Minnesota Utilities, in operating combined

- cycle 1


### plants, we believe that it will be impossible to 2



### maintain a 70

- percent capacity factor for such 3


### plants over the long term. We see this as a 4



### fundamental flaw in the structure of the rule, 5


### that is destined to produce serious compliance 6



### probl ems, and it could substantially degrade the 7


### reliability of the nation's electric system. 8



### Out

- state renewable generation, developed 9


### by Minnesota Utilities to comply with the 10


### Minnesota renewable energy standard should be 11



### allocated to Minnesota. Much of the wind 12


### generation relied upon by Minnesota Utilities to 13


### comply with the state's renewable energy standard 14


### is located in the Dakotas. This generation, 15


### developed or licensed by Minnesota Utilities to 16



### meet the Minnesota RES, should be credited toward 17



### Minnesot a's reduction in CO2 levels. Minnesota 18


### officials have receive preliminary confirmation 19



### from the EPA that this will be the case. We 20


### support that determination and want to underscore 21


### the importance of it. 22

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### The rule must provide a mechanism for 1



### accommodatin g substantial new development. The 2


### proposed rule provides no means of modifying the 3


### goals to account for major new industries or 4


### substantial ecnomic development. Northwest 5


### Minnesota may see the development of two large 6



### nickel

- copper mines and a major ste el mill in the 7


### early 2020s. These projects will be going into 8


### an economically disadvantages area and are sorely 9


### needed to maintain a healthy economy in that part 10


### of the state. It would be very difficult, if not 11


### impossible, to accommodate these major new loads 12


### and still achieve the very large reductions in 13



### CO2 emissions mandated for Minnesota under the 14



### rule. 15



### The proposed 10

- year average lifetime for 16


### efficiency measures is appropriate. The proposed 17


### rule assumes an average electricity efficiency 18



### measure li fetime across all sectors of 10 years. 19



### We believe that this is a reasonable level and we 20


### support it. 21



### The EPA needs to balance concern for the 22

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### environment with reliability and cost. The 1


### proposed rule contains virtually no discussion of 2


### its impact on elec tric system reliability and 3


### cost to consumers. Its analysis of costs and 4


### benefits takes into account "monitoring, record

5


### keeping, and recording costs and demand side 6


### energy efficiency program and participant costs," 7



### but it does not take into account incre ased costs 8


### to consumers, as utilities pass on potential 9


### higher operating costs due to increased reliance 10


### on natural gas and the need to invest in new, 11


### potentially higher cost technology to comply with 12



### the rule, nor does it take into account the 13


### potential c ost to society that may result from 14


### reduced reliability. 15



### The environmental benefits of the rule 16



### could well be counterbalanced by reduced 17


### reliability and substantial cost increases to 18



### residential consumers and businesses. Some 19


### potential courses of action may have less impact 20


### on reliability and/or price than others. Each 21


### potential action should be analyzed for its 22

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### impact on reliability and cost, as well as its 1


### impact on CO2 emissions. 2



### EPA must take into account issues raised 3


### by RTOs. The Ball transmissi on system was 4


### designed to deliver power to load, based on the 5


### current generation mix. Changing the mix of 6


### generation could impact the ability of the 7


### existing system to perform. Furthermore, in our 8


### region, states are not responsible for 9


### dispatching power plants. That responsibility 10



### falls to the Mid

- Continent independent system 11


### operator, our regional transmission organization. 12


### RTOs should report on the potential impact of the 13


### changes mandated by the rule on the transmissions 14


### system. EPA should give serio us consideration to 15


### any concerns raised by RTOs and similar 16


### organizations. 17


### Finally, EPA should develop a mass

- based 18



### calculation and formula for states to use. 19


### Minnesota's regulators, like those in many other 20


### states, will be working on developing a mass

21



### b ased formula. EPA should develop a mass

- based 22

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### calculation and formula for all 50 states to use, 1


### to ensure uniformity and fairness among the 2



### states. 3


### Thank you for consideration of these 4



### concerns. 5



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 6



### speakers are Kathleen Wells and Richard Koetting. 7



### Ms. Wells, you can go ahead. 8


### MS. WELLS: Good afternoon. My name is 9


### Kathleen Wells. I live in Denver. Thank you for 10


### the opportunity to speak today and to voice my 11


### support for the Environmental Protection Agency's 12



### proposed Clean Power Plan to reduce carbon 13


### pollution from power plants. I'm a psychologist, 14


### a retired university professor, and a member of 15


### the Citizens Climate lobby, as well as other 16


### environmental organizations. I am not, however, 17


### representing any of these orga nizations at this 18


### meeting. 19



### Over the past 2 days, speakers have 20


### addressed the deleterious and potentially 21


### catastrophic effects of carbon and methane 22

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### pollution on the human and natural environment, 1


### advised how the scope of the EPA plan could be 2



### widened and the proposed standards could be 3


### raised, or suggested specific mechanisms through 4


### which the existing plan might be improved. My 5


### purpose now is neither to repeat nor to expand 6


### upon any of the thoughtful points that have been 7


### made. My purpose is rather to h ighlight support 8


### for climate action from groups that have not been 9


### well represented at this meeting, that is, 10



### Americans involved in communities of faith. This 11


### group, taken collectively, constitutes an 12


### overwhelming majority of American citizens. 13



### While I d o not have evidence that the 14


### country's faith communities would endorse the 15


### details of the plan, I do provide evidence in the 16



### written material I have submitted that these 17


### groups would endorse the spirit of the EPA plan. 18


### These communities are describing the climate 19


### crisis in moral terms and calling for strong 20


### action to care for the creation, to protect the 21


### poor, and to promote intergenerational justice. 22

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### Religious groups and religious leaders 1


### have made explicit statements calling for 2



### immediate action to re duce the ecological threats 3


### we face. These groups include, but are not 4


### limited to, the following ones: the Catholic 5


### Church, the Episcopal Church, the National 6


### Association of Evangelicals, the Southern Baptist 7


### Conference, the Presbyterian Church USA, the 8


### Religious Society of Friends, the Unitarian 9



### Universalist Association, the Central Conference 10



### of American Rabbis, and the Dalai Lama. 11



### The July 2012 statement from the 12


### Episcopal Church is illustrative, and I quote, 13



### "Resolved, the 77th General Convention c alls on 14


### congregations, institutions, dioceses, and 15


### corporate offices of the Episcopal Church to work 16


### for the just transformation of the world's energy 17


### beyond and away from fossil fuels, including all 18


### forms of oil, coal, and natural gas, and for a 19



### safe, sus tainable, renewable community

- controlled 20


### energy, and that fossil fuel workers and their 21


### families be supported during the transition to a 22

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### post

- carbon society." 1


### Not surprisingly, such faith communities 2


### have banded together to form interfaith groups 3



### that ar e national in scope, groups such as the 4


### Call to Conscience on Climate Disruption, or 5


### Interfaith Power and Light, an organization whose 6


### mission is to promote energy conservation, energy 7


### efficiency, and renewable energy. 8



### The theoretical basis for interfai th 9


### collaboration on ecological issues is being 10


### explored by groups such as the Yale University 11


### Forum on Religion and Ecology, a forum that is, 12


### in fact, spearheading the development of a new 13


### academic field concerned with the religious 14



### dimensions of the clima te crisis. All of these 15



### efforts contributed, no doubt, to the World 16


### Council of Church's position, adopted this month, 17


### that encourages church communities to divest from 18



### fossil fuels. 19



### In conclusion, faith communities, aided 20


### by dialog, deliberation, and the ory development, 21



### have moved from statements of conscience to 22

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### interfaith collaboration, to concerted action in 1


### the political arena designed to address the 2


### climate crisis. This effort is growing and will 3



### expand. 4


### Thank you so much for your work on this 5



### issu e and for your attention. 6


### MS. BROWN: Thank you, and Mr. Koetting? 7



### MR. KOETTING: Good afternoon. My name 8


### is Richard Koetting, K

- o

- e

- t

- t

- i

- n

- g. I'm the 9


### Business Manager for International Brotherhood of 10



### Electrical Workers Local 667 in Pueblo, Colorado. 11



### On behalf of the active members and retirees of 12


### Local 667, I thank you for this opportunity to 13


### testify on the EPA's Clean Power Plan. 14


### IBEW Local 667 is a utility local union 15


### that represents members at Black Hills Energy, 16



### San Isabel Electric Association, and Asplundh 17


### Tree Experts, with job classifications ranging 18


### from customer service to tree trippers to 19


### journeyman linemen, and, until December 31, 2012, 20



### coal plant personnel. 21


### I saw an article published in the 22

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### Washington Post last week, titled, "The Cost of 1


### Climate Change: How Not to Shut Down Coal 2



### Plants." As a resident of Pueblo, the article 3


### really hit home for me and made me want to 4


### testify at this hearing even more, to caution the 5



### EPA, do not make the same mistakes that Colorado 6



### has. 7



### The residential rate per kilowatt hour at 8


### Black Hills Colorado, has risen about 26 percent 9


### since 2010. On a per

- household basis, Pueblo and 10



### other communities that are served, those rates 11


### are now among the highest in the state. Why the 12


### drastic change in electric rates? Before the EPA 13


### began heavily regulating the coal industry, 14


### Colorado put in place Amendment 37 in 2004, which 15


### required a 30

- percent renewable energy standard 16



### for IOUs, and also House Bill 1365 in 2010, which 17


### was the Clean Air, Clean Jobs Act, and lastly, 18



### Se nate Bill 252. 19


### While this shift in electric generation 20



### in the state from coal to renewables and natural 21



### gas has brought some good short

- term paying jobs, 22

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### it does not come close to offsetting the economic 1



### effects from the loss of long

- term jobs and the 2



### c razy increases in electric rates. This drastic 3


### increase in electricity has hit Pueblo 4


### extraordinarily hard. Pueblo is an area that is 5


### economically depressed, with over 22 percent 6


### living below the poverty rate. 7


### The increase in electricity prices has 8



### al so been accompanied by widespread job loss. 9



### For every 1,000 megawatts of power generated by 10



### coal

- fired, there are approximately 250 jobs 11


### associated with that 1,000 megawatts. For every 12



### 1,000 megawatts of natural gas, there are 13


### approximately 50 jobs. It' s a stark difference. 14


### Black Hills Energy chose to replace 15



### almost all of its coal

- fired plants with natural 16


### gas plants. Individuals lost good

- paying, high

17


### skilled jobs and communities lost tax base. 18


### Quite simply, utility companies changing to 19


### comply with the Colorado standards have left the 20


### consumers paying the bill. It's kept many small 21


### businesses from hiring additional employees, and 22

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### real families having to choose between the 1


### keeping the lights on, heating their homes, and 2


### feeding their kids. 3



### I encour age you to check out Pueblo and 4


### its situation and the effects of what's in place 5



### now. The people of Colorado cannot afford to 6



### lose another coal

- fired plant. I am here today to 7


### strongly caution the EPA against being so 8


### ambitious that it decides to fight th e global 9


### problem of climate change on its own, requiring 10


### the entire U.S. to go down the path Colorado has. 11


### A global climate change is needed, one 12


### that brings everyone to the table. China and 13


### India have global emissions that grow every year. 14



### Without the ir commitment to reducing and fighting 15


### this climate change, these regulations will only 16


### be doing the U.S. and its citizens a disservice. 17


### The cost of electricity will undoubtedly 18


### rise, thousands will be left without jobs, and 19


### the strength of our electric g rid will be 20



### diminished. 21


### Thank you again for this opportunity to 22

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### testify. I respectfully suggest the EPA 1


### reconsider the Clean Power Plan, taking into 2


### account how aggressive standards have harmed the 3


### great state of Colorado and some of its citizens. 4



### Thank you. 5



### MS. BROWN: Thank you both. Our next 6


### speakers are Timeo Archuleta and Lonnie Russell. 7



### MR. ARCHULETA: Does it matter which 8



### order? 9


### MS. BROWN: No. Whichever one of you 10


### wants to go first, that's fine. 11



### MS. RUSSELL: Good afternoon. I'm Lonnie 12



### Rus sell from California. I'm a concerned citizen 13



### and a member of the Moms Clean Air Force. I'm 14



### here today because I care deeply about the future 15



### of our children and the communities across the 16



### country and the world that are most vulnerable to 17


### climate change impacts and dirty air. 18


### Children are particularly vulnerable to 19


### climate change, making asthma triggers worse, as 20



### extreme heat is hard on little bodies. The soot 21


### and smog pollution that climate change 22

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### exacerbates damages developing lungs and 1


### increases resp iratory infections. California's 2


### Central Valley has some of the dirtiest air in 3


### the country, with high rates of childhood asthma. 4


### The culprits are two components of air pollution 5



### -- ground

- level ozone and particulate matter. 6



### Ground

- level ozone can have corrosive effects on 7


### the lungs, decreasing lung function. The simple 8


### act of breathing carries these particles deep 9


### into the lungs where they stick and can cause 10


### breathing and heart problems. With climate 11


### change, these impacts will only worsen. 12



### Low

- incom e and communities of color are 13


### disproportionately affected by environmental 14


### pollution and climate change effects, another 15


### important reason I ask you to protect our 16


### communities by moving forward and strengthening 17



### the Clean Power Plan. 18



### Communities are alre ady being harmed by 19


### climate change. Extreme weather damages our 20



### homes and the places we love. It harms our 21


### agricultural communities in California, which 22

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### grow and cultivate food for the entire country, 1



### and sea

- level rise threatens our coastline. 2



### Californ ia is currently suffering the worst 3


### drought we've seen in decades, which, with 4


### climate change, will only happen more frequently. 5


### In northern Philippines, where my family 6


### is from, more severe typhoons, more severe 7


### flooding, and severe temperatures are alre ady 8


### threatening the fragile ecosystems and quality of 9


### life in the region. Last year, my family's home 10


### in the Philippines was flooded with over 5 feet 11


### of water for several weeks on end. Flooding that 12


### great had never previously been seen in the 13


### region. Wi th the impacts of climate change, this 14


### already fragile area of the world will only be 15


### put in greater danger. 16


### My parents and family immigrated from the 17


### Philippines, working as maintenance workers, 18


### house cleaners, and nursing assistants. My 19


### family may not be environmentalists per se, but 20


### share a common value of protecting the health of 21



### their children and the communities around them. 22

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### They have engrained a deep sense of 1


### responsibility to care for the vulnerable 2


### communities, including the health of the childre n 3


### and the elderly, especially those that may not 4


### have the same opportunities as others. 5


### I am privileged to be able to speak on 6


### behalf of my family to address the most important 7


### environmental and socioeconomic challenge of our 8



### time. The U.S. must reduce i ts emissions moving 9


### forward. Its impact is not only felt locally but 10


### around the globe. Carbon pollution from power 11


### plants is the largest single source of carbon 12


### dioxide emissions. The EPA's clean power plan is 13


### an important first step in addressing clima te 14



### change for the U.S. 15



### I ask the EPA strengthens the Clean Power 16



### Plan and finalizes a rule that reduces carbon 17


### dioxide emissions 40 percent below 2005 levels by 18


### 2020. We have a moral obligation to act to 19


### protect our children and to leave them a planet 20



### th at is better than we found it. Continued 21


### leadership is needed to protect the air we 22

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### breathe, the water we drink, and the quality of 1



### life that we continue to value. We must ensure 2


### that we continue to act on climate and protect 3


### the diversity that defines A merica's distinct 4



### landscape. 5


### Thank you for your time and attention. I 6


### appreciate the opportunity to testify. 7



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Archuleta? 8



### MR. ARCHULETA: Good afternoon. My name 9


### is Timeo Archuleta. I'm a senior business agent 10



### for the Intern ational Brotherhood of Electrical 11


### Workers and an industrial organizer for the same 12



### local union. I work with 3,500 Local 111 members 13


### who are employed in many classifications of work 14


### by electric and gas utilities, including co

- ops 15



### throughout Colorado. 16



### Ca n you hear me? It sounds like it's 17


### going in and out. 18



### I'm here today to talk about the EPA 19


### Clean Power Plan proposal and the negative 20


### effects it will have on reliability and 21


### affordability for many states like Colorado. 22

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### Under the Clean Power Plan, the rel iability of 1


### the electric grid will suffer. Ninety percent of 2


### the plants that will be closed by the EPA's most 3


### recent final rule, the Mercury and Air Toxic 4


### Standards, MATS acronym, were needed to provide 5


### power during last winter, one of the coldest and 6



### sno wiest winters on record. 7



### Taken together, MATS and the Clean Power 8


### Plan will close nearly 100 gigawatts of coal

9


### fired generation, severely compromising grid 10


### reliability, particularly during winter cold 11



### snaps and summer heat waves. Access to 12



### affordable e nergy is the most utmost importance 13



### to the Coloradans. Every dollar spent on 14


### electricity is a dollar that cannot be spent on 15


### groceries, next year's family vacation, housing, 16


### education, just to name a few. 17



### Local 111's members are very concerned 18



### with the n egative impacts on electricity prices. 19



### Here in Colorado, we have a considerable 20


### experience as to what happens when you remove 21


### coal generation from the mix of the fuel 22

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### diversity. Colorado has already been shutting 1


### down coal plants, as the state transition s to 2



### natural gas renewables. It has not been a smooth 3


### or just process. 4


### In Pueblo, as Mr. Koetting talked, Black 5


### Hills Energy chose to replace almost all of its 6


### coal generation with natural gas in a very short 7


### period, resulting in 26

- percent hike since 20 10. 8


### Please know that Pueblo is not wealthy. You 9


### won't confuse Pueblo with Vail or Aspen. It has 10



### a poverty rate of

-- my numbers are 18.1 and his 11



### numbers are 21

- point

- something. I'm guess his 12


### numbers are probably more accurate than mine are. 13


### Mine just come from the Bureau of Statistics. 14


### Without question, residents have been 15


### hurt by the quick transition to natural gas. 16


### Whether or not the EPA admits it, the quick 17


### transition required by Clean Power Plan will 18


### cause pain throughout this country, not only i n 19



### Colorado. 20


### It is important that the government 21


### implement policies that will ensure affordable, 22

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### reliable energy to our families, farms, 1



### factories, and small businesses. It has been 2


### estimated that 52,000 permanent, direct jobs in 3


### the utility, rail, and co al

- mining sectors, and 4


### 100,000 indirect jobs will be lost because of 5


### this proposal. These a good

- paying jobs with 6


### benefits that sustain the family farms, small 7


### businesses, and even things as simple as the 8


### country store. This will ultimately cause ghost 9



### t owns in parts of rural Colorado. 10


### Thank you for the opportunity to speak 11


### before you today. In conclusion, I ask you that 12


### you keep Americans in mind as you promulgate 13


### rules that adversely affect us, the working class 14



### Americans. 15



### Thank you. 16



### MS. BROWN: Tha nk you. Our next speakers 17



### are Brad Tollerson and Guy Runco. Mr. Tollerson, 18



### do you want to go ahead and get started? 19



### MR. TOLLERSON: Sure. Good afternoon. 20


### My name is Brad Tollerson, T

- o

- l

- l

- e

- r

- s

- o

- n, 21


### Vice President of Planning and Strategy for Otter 22

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### T ail Power Company. 1



### I have three messages today. 2



### (1) Cost matters. 3


### (2) The EPA may have exceeded its 4


### statutory authority by proposing emissions 5


### guidelines that go beyond the fence of individual 6


### generating units. 7


### (3) The EPA must adjust the state 8



### ta rgets if it proceeds with the Clean Power Plan. 9



### First, allow me to address cost. Otter 10


### Tail Power Company is a small, investor

- owned 11


### utility that serves customers in western 12



### Minnesota, eastern North Dakota, and northeastern 13



### South Dakota. The environment matters to us 14



### because we live with our families in the 15



### communities we serve, in states that have some of 16



### the cleanest air in the nation. 17


### The average population in our communities 18


### is about 400. We are very rural. Our median

19



### sized town in North Dakota, for example, is 20


### Mercer, population 94. Mercer's average annual 21


### household income is near $39,000, and 29 percent 22

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### of Mercer's households have someone the age 65 or 1


### older, living alone. 2


### Mercer's big businesses are Freeburg's 3


### [ph] Grocery Store and Ed's Ser vice Station. 4



### These are the customers and businesses EPA must 5


### keep in mind as it finalizes Section 111(d) 6


### guidelines. Cost matters to them. 7


### Second, we believe the EPA may have 8


### exceeded its statutory authority by creating 9


### emissions guidelines that go bey ond the fence of 10


### individual generating units. The EPA always 11


### established standards achievable through the 12


### application of the best system of emissions 13


### reduction for the generating unit. The change in 14



### methodology here creates the untenable 15



### circumstance con trary to the intent of Congress, 16


### that the emissions limitations for some existing 17


### sources will be more stringent than those for new 18



### sources. 19


### Third, if the EPA goes ahead with the 20



### Clean Power Plan, it should make technical 21


### adjustments to the final rule. I n South Dakota, 22

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### for example, Building Blocks 1 and 2 are 1


### technically unfeasible. Here's why. Otter Tail 2


### Power Company operates in jointly

- owned Big Stone 3



### Plant, the one coal

- fired power plant in South 4


### Dakota. Building Block 1 is technically 5



### unfeasible b ecause the Big Stone Plant already 6


### has performed the available significant heat

- rate 7


### improvement projects. 8



### Moreover, EPA's formula overlooks the 9


### fact that Big Stone Plant is investing nearly 10


### $400 million, as we speak, to install pollution 11


### control equipm ent to comply with EPA's regional 12


### haze rules. This equipment will add an estimated 13


### 8 megawatts of station service to the plant that 14


### cannot be recouped through efficiency 15


### improvements. 16


### Building Block 2 is also technically 17


### unfeasible. Application of the p roposed rule's 18


### formula would require Big Stone Plant to operate 19



### at a 23

- percent capacity factor. In turn, the 20


### application of the rule would dramatically 21


### increase the dispatch of the only natural gas 22

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### combined

- cycle unit in the state. 1


### The application of this formula has 2


### numerous technical flaws. First, Big Stone Plant 3



### and the one combined

- cycle unit have no 4


### contractual relationship, are owned by different 5


### companies, and serve unique loads. The combined

6


### cycle unit owner has no obligation to provide the 7



### e nergy to the owners of Big Stone Plant, or 8


### ultimately their customers. 9


### Second, Big Stone operates within the 10


### MISO centralized market. Beginning in 2015, the 11



### combined

- cycle unit will be dispatched through 12



### the Southwest Power Pool centralized market. 13



### Ac cordingly, the two units will operate with 14


### entirely different commitment and dispatch 15



### processes. 16


### Third, each of the three Big Stone Plant 17



### co

- owners relies on the capacity and energy from 18



### the plant for all 12 months of the year. Because 19


### Big Stone Plant's minimum operating load is 20


### approximately 40 percent of maximum output, a 23

- 21


### percent capacity factor would require the unit to 22

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### be offline for at least half the year, 1


### jeopardizing the plant's future, along with the 2


### $400 million being invested in environmental 3


### upgrades. This would substantially increase 4


### costs for our customers, including Freeberg's 5


### Grocery Store and Ed's Service Station. 6


### Even if redispatch were workable in this 7


### setting, the South Dakota target would need to be 8


### adjusted because the lone combin ed

- cycle unit did 9


### not begin operating until late 2012, resulting in 10


### an unrepresentative 1

- percent capacity factor. 11



### The combined

- cycle unit should be considered an 12



### under

- construction unit in the South Dakota 13


### target calculation, similar to the treatment of 14



### the combined

- cycle units that began operation or 15



### construction in 2013, in other states. 16


### Thank you for the opportunity to speak 17


### today. Otter Tail Power Company will provide 18



### more detailed comments on these and other issues. 19



### We look forward to final 111(d) guidelines that 20



### are both cost

- effective and achievable. 21



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Runco? 22

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### MR. RUNCO: Good afternoon. My name is 1



### Gun Runco. The last name is R

- u

- n

- c

- o. I'm an 2


### international representative with the 3



### International Brotherhood of Electri cal Workers. 4



### I live in Pueblo, Colorado, and I work all over 5



### the state of Colorado. Before I became an 6


### international representative, through the '70s 7


### and '80s I worked for Centel Electric, a utility 8


### company in southern Colorado that is now Black 9



### Hills Col orado. I worked in the utility industry 10


### for 13 years as a substation electrician, working 11


### in both substations and power plants in the 12



### southern Colorado area. 13


### In 1987, I became the Business Manager of 14


### IBEW Local 667, representing electric utility 15



### workers in southern Colorado, and continued to do 16


### this for 12 years. In 1999, I became an 17


### International Rep for the IBEW, representing 18



### electrical workers across the IBEW's 8th 19


### District, and I continue to do that today. 20



### On behalf of the IBEW members in the 21



### entire 8th District, which consists of the states 22

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### of Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, and Colorado, I 1


### thank you for this opportunity to testify. The 2


### IBEW, in conjunction with Unions for Jobs & 3


### Environmental Progress, estimate the EPA's 4



### proposed Clean Power rule w ill result in the loss 5


### of 52,000 permanent, direct jobs by 2020, due to 6



### coal

- fired power plant closures, and the loss of 7


### 167,000 total direct and indirect jobs. 8


### The job loss is not limited to two 9


### positions in the plants that will close

-- jobs 10



### in the co al

- fired power plants or jobs in the 11


### communities closely surrounding the power plants. 12


### These jobs are in the railroad, mining, 13


### electrical, and service industries. These jobs 14


### are all highly paid, highly skilled, and, for the 15


### most part, they're in rural co mmunities all 16



### across Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Utah, and 17


### Wyoming, areas that do not have comparable 18


### employment opportunities. 19



### In the 8th District, across the states of 20


### Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wyoming, 21



### there are countless communities that are t otally 22

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### reliant on the jobs created by coal

- fired power 1


### plants, places like Delta, Utah; Wheatland, 2


### Wyoming; Colstrip, Montana; and Craig, Colorado. 3


### In all of these communities, the power plants 4


### jobs and all of the related service jobs that are 5



### created by the operation of a coal

- fired power 6


### plant, are absolutely essential to the economy of 7


### those communities, not only the towns themselves 8


### but of the surrounding community, as a whole. 9


### There is no doubt that the job loss 10


### created by the Clean Power Plan will h ave a 11


### devastating effect on these communities, 12


### communities that are still experiencing record 13


### unemployment rates. If this plan moves forward 14



### as is written, there is no doubt that it will be 15


### at an extremely high cost for the states of 16



### Colorado, Idaho, Mont ana, Utah, and Wyoming, in 17


### both terms of jobs lost, communities impacted, 18


### and electric utility rates that will be raised. 19


### Job loss will be accompanying generation 20


### loss. The EPA reports the Clean Power Plan will 21


### lead to the closure of over 40 gigawatts of coal

22

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### fired generating capacity by 2020. This is the 1


### equivalent of Colorado, Nevada, Utah, and Wyoming 2


### all losing their existing power entirely. Due to 3



### the nature of the rule, exact plant closure and 4


### gigawatts that will be lost remains unknown and 5



### diff icult to assess until states have finalized 6


### implementation plans, which will not be for 7



### several years. 8



### The Clean Power Plant closures will be in 9


### addition to those our area has already seen as a 10


### result of other EPA regulations, like the most 11



### recent, the Me rcury and Air Toxics Standard. 12



### Almost half of the U.S. coal

- fired power plants 13


### will close by the time the Clean Power Plan is 14


### fully implemented. Renewable energy, solar and 15


### wind, are not prepared to make up for this great 16


### loss on the electrical grid. 17



### Na tural gas is also not ready to bridge 18



### the gap left by the U.S. coal

- fired fleet 19


### closures. EPA's proposal for increasing the use 20


### of natural gas combined

- cycle units, in addition 21


### to 40 gigawatts of new natural gas combined

- cycle 22

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### capacity that the EPA projec ts to come online 1


### form 2020 to 2030, will lead to significant 2


### increases in natural gas prices, well above the 3


### EPA's projections. This is assuming that all of 4


### the permitting for new plants is even approved 5



### and the plants are then constructed. The IBEW 6



### rem ains skeptical these plants will even come 7


### online, as the EPA predicts. 8


### Increasing electricity demand, coupled 9


### with decreased supply, is a recipe for 10


### skyrocketing electricity prices that will be 11


### passed directly on to the consumers. Our area 12



### has already s een increased costs due to renewable 13


### standards and mass associated plant closures. 14



### Our communities and consumers cannot afford 15



### another round of EPA

- related plant closures. 16


### In Colorado, we are already seeing the 17



### effects of recent coal

- fired plant closur es. We 18


### suffered job losses and now the increased 19


### electric utility rates are a reality of the 20



### citizens of this state. The increased electric 21



### rates have a terrible effect on all of the rate 22

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### payers, but even more so on the elderly and the 1


### working class, and those that can least afford to 2



### pay. 3


### Increased rates also inhibit new industry 4


### and job creation. 5



### MS. BROWN: If you could wrap up your 6


### statement in a minute or two, that would be good. 7



### MR. RUNCO: Yes, ma'am. The IBEW has 8



### several recommendations for an improved Clean 9



### Power Plan. Provide credit to states that have 10


### already reduced carbon emissions to help meet EPA 11


### targets. Delay the implementation of Clean Power 12


### Plan to give states and utilities adequate time 13


### to implement compliance strategies, and shar e 14


### those strategies with the public for comment. 15


### And lastly, develop a global climate 16


### change plan that brings developing nations like 17



### China and India to the table. Both nations' 18


### share of global emissions is growing every year. 19


### Without global commitment to fighting climate 20


### change, EPA regulations will bring no net 21



### benefit. 22

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### Thank you for this opportunity to 1


### testify. The IBEW looks forward to working with 2


### you toward a climate change solution that keeps 3



### the best interests of both consumers, workers, 4



### and t he environment in mind. Unfortunately, the 5



### Clean Power Plan is not that solution. 6



### Thank you. 7



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. And our next 8


### speakers are Seth Portner and Scott Denning. Mr. 9



### Portner? 10


### MR. DENNING: I am Scott Denning. 11



### MS. BROWN: Is Mr. Portner i n the room? 12



### If you want to go ahead. 13



### MR. DENNING: Okay. Good afternoon. My 14


### name is Scott Denning. I’m a professor. 15


### ATTENDEE: Turn your mic on. 16



### MR. DENNING: Oh. That would be a good 17


### idea. Good afternoon. My name is Scott Denning 18



### and I'm a profes sor of atmospheric science at 19


### Colorado State University. I've published about 20


### 100 papers in the peer

- reviewed climate 21



### literature. I'm a former editor of the Journal 22

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### of Climate. I served for 5 years as the founding 1



### science chair of the North American Car bon 2


### Program. I support the proposed rule because, in 3


### my expert opinion, these rules are a step in the 4


### right direction to avoid dangerous and extremely 5


### expensive damages to the United States. 6


### Climate change is simple, serious, and 7



### solvable. You may be su rprised to hear from a 8


### climate scientist that climate change is simple, 9


### but I wanted to explain to you that our concern 10



### about greenhouse gases doesn't come from computer 11



### models. It doesn't come from recent 12


### temperatures. It's not rocket science. It's 13



### abs olutely consistent with our everyday 14


### experience of the world. 15



### The Earth's climate results from the 16



### balance between the heat we receive from the sun 17


### and the heat that the Earth radiates back up to 18


### space. If more heat comes in than goes out, it 19



### gets warm . If more heat goes out than comes in, 20



### it cools of. 21


### Carbon dioxide gas absorbs heat because 22

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### of its molecular structure, because of the shape 1


### of its molecules. Every time the amount of CO2 2


### in the atmosphere doubles, it adds 4 watts of 3



### heat to every squ are meter of the planet. That's 4


### the equivalent of one of these light bulbs that

- 5



### - all of you are old enough to remember these 6


### things, but when I was a little boy, these were 7


### Christmas tree lights. 8


### When my kids were little, they were 9


### nightlights that t hey used to find the bathroom. 10


### Doubling CO2 puts this much heat on every square 11



### meter of the Earth. I don't know how many square 12



### meters there are in this room

-- a fair number

-- 13


### but it's not just this room. It's the whole 14


### building. It's the whole plan et, 24/7, 365 days 15


### a year, for centuries to come. 16



### Believe it or not, we've known all of 17


### that since before light bulbs were invented. One 18


### hundred fifty years ago, the properties of CO2 19


### were first measured by John Tyndall, in 1863, 20



### when Abraham Lincoln was President. Since that 21


### time, the measurements have gotten better and 22

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### better, but the answer hasn't changed at all. 1


### We expect the CO2 to warm the climate for 2



### exactly the same reason we expect day to be 3


### warmer than night, for the same reason we expect 4



### su mmer to be warmer than winter, for the same 5


### reason we expect Miami to be warmer than 6


### Minneapolis. It doesn't come from computer 7



### models. It comes from measurements. We expect 8



### CO2 to warm the climate because we know that when 9


### you add heat to things, they change their 10



### temperature. 11


### Climate change is serious. Warmer air 12


### evaporates more water than colder air. Here in 13


### the west, we know how precious water is, and we 14


### can't afford to waste what little we have by 15


### having it evaporate faster from our farms and 16



### ran ches and from our reservoirs. We get almost 17


### all of our water from mountain snowpack, and our 18


### economy would suffer tremendously if we lost that 19


### snow. The strongest predictor of wildfire in the 20


### West is summer temperature, and we've seen the 21



### acreage burn do uble in our region in the last 30 22

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### years, even with the small amount of global 1


### warming that we've had so far. 2


### Without major emission cuts, western 3



### forests may burn so frequently, they'll be 4



### completely replaced by grass and shrubs. In 5



### other parts of the U. S., the problem isn't too 6



### little; it's too much water. Sea

- level rise in a 7


### warming climate could destroy trillions of 8



### dollars worth of real estate along the coasts, 9


### though, thankfully, we certainly don't have to 10


### worry about rising seas in the Mile High Ci ty. 11


### Climate change is solvable. We have the 12


### technologies already in hand to dramatically 13


### reduce emissions while strengthening our economy 14


### and creating jobs. A complete transformation of 15



### the global economy to non

- fossil energy has been 16



### estimated to cost about 1 percent of global GDP. 17


### Our ancestors spent that much retrofitting the 18


### world's cities with indoor plumbing a century 19


### ago. It was worth it. I don't think any of us 20


### would happily take a 1

- percent pay raise and give 21


### up indoor plumbing. That money w asn't gone. It 22

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### created millions of jobs, for plumbers, for 1


### contractors, for the factories that supplied 2



### them, for the farms and grocers that fed them. 3


### Opponents of these rules claim that the 4


### U.S. is weak and that our people are incapable of 5


### meeting this challenge, of solving our climate 6


### problem. They will tell you that our feeble 7


### economy needs to be propped up by energy we dig 8


### from the ground. They are wrong. Our economy is 9


### the strongest in the world because our people 10


### have always been willing to apply ingenuity and 11


### hard work to turn problems into opportunities. 12


### I urge you to implement the proposed rule 13



### because I believe our children can be as creative 14



### and as hard

- working as our ancestors. 15


### Thanks for the opportunity to speak. 16



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. I just want to 17



### check one more time whether Seth Portner is in 18



### the room? Excellent? Do you want to go ahead? 19



### Okay. 20



### MR. PORTNER: Thank you for the 21


### opportunity to testify today on the EPA proposed 22

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### rule on carbon pollution emissions guidelines for 1


### existing stationary sources. My name is Seth 2



### Portner, and I am on the national board of 3


### Efficiency First, and that's Portner, P

- o

- r

- t

- n

4



### e

- r. 5


### Efficiency First is the national business 6


### association for the home performance industry. 7


### That's basically energy efficie ncy businesses 8


### that work primarily in small buildings, 9


### residential buildings. We represent contractors 10


### and companies across the United States, with 11


### state and local chapters basically in every 12



### state. 13


### We work with companies to retrofit 14



### Americans' home an d to bring them and our economy 15


### into the future. Together we advocate for 16


### policies that accelerate the growth of the 17


### industry, creating huge opportunities for 18


### companies and delivering meaningful value to 19


### homeowners in energy savings. 20


### First, we want to ap plaud the 21


### administration for this important effort to 22

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### regulate carbon emissions, and for the 1


### recognition in the rule that energy efficiency 2


### should be part of carbon reductions. We believe 3



### that home performance meets the Best System of 4



### Emission Reduction, BSER, test, and is a crucial 5


### part of Building Block 4, energy efficiency, in 6


### the proposed rule. In fact, with more than 113 7


### million residences consuming 22 percent of all 8


### United States energy, this sector is a critical 9


### part of any program that targets emi ssions 10


### reductions, so, again, I want to reiterate, 113 11


### million American homes and 22 percent of the 12



### energy used. 13


### We are here today to offer suggestions 14


### for improvements to the draft regulations, and we 15


### will provide further details in our October 16th 16



### comm ents. We urge the EPA to consider allowing 17


### states to account for natural gas savings in 18


### energy efficiency programs. We urge EPA to 19


### recognize the unintended consequences that could 20



### be associated with fuel

- switching, and the carbon 21



### that would not be captur ed and measured, as well 22

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### as the inefficiencies in delivery of energy

1


### efficiency services that may come by excluding 2


### efficiency gains from gas and other heating fuels 3



### under the rules. 4


### For example, in the residential sector, 5



### current home energy performance programs that aim 6



### to reduce the overall energy use of a home, may 7


### indeed and instead be encouraged by the rule to 8


### switch from electric heat to natural gas heat. 9


### The carbon emitted from the natural gas heater 10



### will not be measured, nor the water heater. 11



### We recommend that EPA offer states best 12


### practices for ensuring that energy savings is 13


### maximized in residential programs. Please know 14


### that not all energy efficiency programs are 15



### created equally. 16



### Today, rate payer

- funded programs that 17


### usually are required to pass a cost

- effectiveness 18



### test, those tests are based on five tests 19


### originally developed in the 1970s in California. 20


### Despite more recent updates, these tests are 21


### often implemented in the ways that provide a 22

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### barrier to deep energy efficiency in residenti al 1


### buildings. A new screening effort that 2


### Efficiency First has participated in, called the 3


### Resource Value Framework, the RVF, provides a 4


### powerful tool for public utility commissions to 5



### ensure that their cost

- effectiveness tests are 6



### balanced, transparent, and account for public 7


### policy goals. We urge EPA to recommend the use 8



### of the Resource Value Framework to states that 9


### wish to test their 111(d) compliance for cost

10


### effectiveness, in order to encourage deeper 11


### energy savings and opportunities. 12



### Home performa nce programs have many 13


### different designs, as noted in the proposed rule. 14


### For example, with each method for calculating 15


### savings, deemed modeled measured, et cetera, 16


### there are best practices that we urge EPA to 17


### include in its guidance to states developing 18



### t heir implementation plans. We will provide 19


### further input in our comments, but as a 20


### preliminary statement, we urge EPA today to 21


### consider that there are new technologies, smart 22

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### meters to measure energy efficiency as a 1


### resource, home energy management device s, and 2


### others emerging every day in the marketplace, 3


### that can assist with program design and carbon 4



### measurement. 5


### We strongly recommend that EPA recognize 6



### this nascent revolution and ensure that their 7


### regulation not close the door to new technology 8



### and p rogram designs that encourage innovation. 9


### As EPA develops its rules for evaluation, 10



### measurement, and verification

-- EM&V, in the 11


### industry

-- we urge the consideration of energy 12


### consumption data as provided by utilities. This 13



### data, in the form of both tr aditional utility 14


### bills and more advanced technologies such as 15


### smart devices and home energy management systems, 16


### can provide valuable information about energy use 17


### and contribute to accurate quantification of 18


### savings. This information should be recognized 19



### and considered in the new EM&V. 20


### Thank you, on behalf of Efficiency First, 21


### for the opportunity to testify. While there are 22

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### a great many gains to be made overall, please 1


### ensure that continued attention is paid to the 2


### only element of the rule that directly includes 3


### both small business and average Americans, the 4


### energy reductions in the residential sector. 5



### Thank you very much. 6


### MS. BROWN: Thank you, and right now 7


### we're going to take

-- it's about three o'clock

- 8



### - we're going to take a 15

- minute break and 9



### re convene at 3:15. 10


### [Recess taken from 3:03 to 3:15 p.m.] 11


### MS. BROWN: We're going to go ahead and 12


### get started again in the afternoon session. 13


### First a reminder for anybody who has yet to 14


### speak. There are two small black microphones on 15



### the tables that the c ourt reporter is using to 16


### transcribe the proceedings. Please make sure 17


### you're not putting your papers on top of those or 18


### rustling the papers right next them, because it 19


### makes it hard for him to hear the testimony. 20


### So, getting started again, our next two 21


### speakers are Chloe Fandel and Stuart Travis. Ms. 22

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### Fandel, if you want to go ahead and start. 1


### MS. FANDEL: Hi. My name is Chloe 2



### Fandel. 3


### MS. BROWN: Hit the button on your 4


### microphone. 5



### MS. FANDEL: Start over? 6



### MS. BROWN: Great. Yeah. Thank you. 7



### MS. F ANDEL: Hi. My name is Chloe 8


### Fandel. I'm here in support of the EPA carbon 9


### pollution standards. My background is as a 10


### geologist. I'm about to start graduate school in 11



### hydrogeology

-- that's the study of groundwater

- 12



### - in Arizona. 13



### Over the past two yea rs, I've spent time 14


### studying groundwater in the Cascades and in the 15


### South of France, and working for the Audubon 16


### Society as an environmental educator, as well as 17


### for an oil and gas company in Colorado, to try to 18


### understand our energy industry. 19


### The things that I've learned have made me 20


### fairly concerned. As a result of human

- induced 21


### global warming, we're already seeing dramatic 22

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### shifts in the way the planet works, that are 1



### extremely harmful. When I worked for the Audubon 2


### Society in Rhode Island, we saw harm ful species 3


### like poison ivy and deer ticks spreading rapidly, 4


### because they do well in the warmer, disruptive 5


### environments we're creating. The students that I 6


### was teaching didn't want to go outside because 7


### they were afraid of Lyme disease. 8



### We saw Hurric ane Sandy destroying 9


### communities along the coast. Part of my job was 10


### helping pull people's houses out of the salt 11



### marshes. We found staircases, walls, chairs, 12



### people's keepsakes. Not only were the homes 13



### destroyed, the salt marshes that all the homes 14



### was hed into, which normally are a buffer against 15


### hurricanes, were suffering because of all the 16



### debris. 17


### When I studied groundwater in the 18


### Cascades, I learned that, already, higher 19


### temperatures are decreasing the quantity and 20


### quality of the water we rely on. The snowpack is 21


### not regenerating fully during the winter and is 22

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### melting more each summer, decreasing the amount 1


### of water recharging the underground aquifers. 2


### The springs that I was supposed to be serving 3


### were, in some cases, not there anymore. 4



### The wate r that does still flow through 5



### streams and rivers is warmer, and, therefore, 6


### less able to hold dissolved oxygen, which 7


### supports fish and invertebrate populations. 8


### Warmer water can become clogged with algae 9



### blooms, some of them toxic. In areas where the 10



### w ater carries dissolved minerals, warmer 11


### temperatures mean that calcium carbonate 12


### precipitates out more easily, clogging the pipes 13


### and requiring more frequent, very expensive 14


### cleanings. 15


### Here in Colorado, the mountain pine 16


### beetle is thriving under warmer temperatures, 17


### decimating our forests and killing the trees that 18


### would normally be pulling CO2 from the 19


### atmosphere. I drove through Rocky Mountain 20



### National Park last week, and was horrified 21


### because half of the mountains were gray instead 22

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### of green. 1



### This is happening right now. The ravages 2


### that scientists have been predicting for years 3


### are no longer something that will happen soon or 4


### to our children or in the next generation. 5


### They're happening right now. This is why EPA's 6


### proposed regulations are so impor tant. I hear 7


### people saying that they're worried that the 8


### regulations will harm the economy, reduce jobs, 9


### and other economic concerns. That's not really 10


### how it works. Economists have said, again and 11


### again, that the regulations will have a minimal 12



### economi c impact. The ARDC [ph] actually 13


### suggested that job creation might go up and 14


### electricity bills down. 15


### Any negative impacts the regulations 16


### would have are far, far outweighed by the cost of 17


### inaction that's much more expensive. Right now, 18


### we're pouring m oney into emergency rooms for 19


### things like hurricanes, fires, lost crops, 20


### drought, all results of climate change. Instead, 21


### we need to be proactive and head off further 22

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### destruction, which is extremely costly. 1


### These regulations are a first step in the 2


### right direction. The science is unambiguous, and 3



### there's no need for debate about whether or not 4


### to enact the regulations. The debate should be 5


### about what we do next, because these regulations 6



### are not merely enough. 7


### Thank you for listening. 8



### MS. BROWN: Than k you. Could I ask you 9


### to spell your name for the record, and just a 10


### reminder to everybody, when you give your 11


### testimony, to spell your name. 12



### MS. FANDEL: It's C

- h

- l

- o

- e, F like 13



### Frank

- a

- n

- d

- e

- l. 14



### MS. BROWN: Great. Thank you. Mr. 15


### Travis? You've got to turn that one off to get 16



### the other one on. 17


### MR. TRAVIS: Hi. My name is Stuart 18



### Travis, S

- t

- u

- a

- r

- t T

- r

- a

- v

- i

- s. I am President 19



### of the Board of Directors at the Y

- W Electric Co

20



### op, based out of Akron, Colorado. We are a co

- op 21


### with about 8,000 meters, pr imarily known as an 22

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### irrigation co

- op. I'm here to speak against 1



### this. 2



### If we want to look to see what will 3


### happen as we, if this regulation is implemented, 4


### all we have to do is look at what happened in 5


### Germany. Last year, the Vice Chancellor, Sigmar 6



### Gabr iel, said, German's transition towards 7


### renewable energy is on the verge of failure. He 8


### went on to say the truth is that in all fields we 9


### have underestimated the complexity of 10


### implementing renewable energies. 11


### Additionally, the high prices coming from 12



### rene wable energies have taken their toll up on 13


### the middle class, creating chaotic supply 14


### challenges, and have directly contributed to 15


### nationwide job losses. Massive subsidies for 16


### renewable energy are hurting the economy, 17


### imposing significant regressive costs on poor and 18


### working

- class energy consumers. 19



### In order to move the program forward, 20


### German's leadership is now grappling to balance 21


### renewable energy subsidies with affordable 22

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### energy. In an unexpected move, Germany approved 1



### the coal

- fired power plant in 8 years, which is 2


### now up and running. The Germany energy company, 3


### Steag, says its 725

- megawatt coal plant is just 4


### the beginning of coal's German comeback. They 5


### have ten more on the line, to combat the price of 6


### the renewables on their system. 7



### If we think of Germany as the oddball, we 8


### can look at Spain. Investors News says Spain's 9


### green disaster is a lesson for America, and they 10


### labeled it as a job

- killer in Spain. Calzada, a 11


### Spanish economist, said that each green job 12


### created cost Spanish taxpayers $770, 000. Each 13


### wind energy cost $1.3 million to create. 14



### Then, from another article out of Forbes, 15


### they called it the good and the downright ugly. 16



### The good was that, for a month, 54 percent of 17


### their energy was done by renewable, and they said 18



### the ugly

-- we can skip the bad

-- is their 19


### economy is now tanked because of it. As we go, 20


### they say the public objective was laudable. Who 21



### doesn't want renewable energy? Unfortunately, 22

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### implementation was lamentable and the resulting 1


### situation is quite serious. It is, therefore, 2


### important for us to learn Spain's lessons. 3


### As of February of this year, Investor 4


### News announced that Europe is going to run, not 5


### walk, away from green energy. They said that the 6


### green dreams collide with cold, economic reality. 7



### Green program s aren't creating green jobs but 8


### green unemployment, at intolerable double

- digit 9


### rates. The quip in exhausted Europe these days 10


### is that before we save the plant, we have to save 11



### ourselves. 12


### Now, in the United States, if you haven't 13


### been following the news , corporations are fleeing 14


### the United States at what they quote as being a 15


### blistering rate, according to Wall Street 16


### Journal. I'm fearful that implementation of 17


### this, and the resulting increase in power, will 18



### increase that rate. 19


### Now, with some of the hop es I heard 20


### expressed yesterday and from earlier people 21


### today, that they believe that the United States 22

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### should act as a role model for the Chinese, who, 1


### I believe, are well over 25 percent of the CO2 2


### emissions in the world now. Well, recently, a 3



### document w as translated by an author by the name 4


### of Gu Hung Yang [ph]

-- I hope I pronounced that 5



### correctly

-- and quoting from his document, this 6


### is believed to be the official Chinese policy, 7


### said, "It was a freezing cold winter was having a 8



### laugh at all the globa l warming theories. 9


### "If the world was warming at an ever

10


### quickening pace, as all these environmentalists 11



### say, then whence from such extreme cold? Where 12


### were there any doubts about global warming? It's 13


### almost as though environmentalists turn 14


### everything around, claiming that this, too, is a 15


### result of global warming. The greenhouse effect 16


### has turned into a big basket. No matter what bad 17


### thing it is, just chuck it in." That's what the 18



### Chinese believe. 19


### And, in fact, they believe that the 20


### carbon warming theory here in the United States 21



### is a sinister intention of the West to block the 22

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### development of third

- world nations. The Soviets, 1


### in Pravda, believe the exact same thing. 2


### Now, if you look at the total CO2 3


### emissions of the United States, and if you take 4


### the reduction plan

-- am I done? 5


### MS. BROWN: If you could just wrap up. 6



### MR. TRAVIS: What's that? 7


### MS. BROWN: If you could just wrap up. 8



### MR. TRAVIS: Okay. If look at the 9



### reductions, this will cause the CO2 amount, 10


### worldwide, will affect by about 1

- 1/ 2 percent. 11


### According to the EPA, mandated to carbon is 3 12


### percent of the worldwide contribution. So you 13



### take the 1

- 1/2 and the 3 percent, basically this 14



### will reduce the worldwide carbon in the 15



### atmosphere by 67/10,000th of a percent. 16



### This is what the Grea t Lakes looked like 17



### last winter, frozen over for the first time, 18


### completely, in 30 years. 19



### Thank you. 20



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 21


### speakers are Jeffrey Davis and Macon Cowles . Mr. 22

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### Davis? Do you want to go ahead? 1



### MR. COWLES : I'm Macon Cowles

. 2



### MS. BROWN: Okay. 3



### MR. COWLES : Am I next up? 4


### MS. BROWN: Whichever one of you wants to 5


### go first is fine. Yeah, yours is on. Turn off 6


### that microphone. 7



### MR. COWLES : So am I on? 8



### ATTENDEE: You can turn it on now. 9



### MS. BROWN: Then it should work. 10



### MR. C OWLES : Now I'm on? 11



### MS. BROWN: Yes. 12



### MR. COWLES : Okay. Good afternoon and 13


### thank you for coming to Denver, Colorado, to hear 14


### what the people here have to say. My name is 15



### Macon Cowles . I was the lead environmental 16


### lawyer suing Exxon for the cleanup of the Valdez 17


### oil spill a quarter of a century ago, and I 18


### realized that unless we get the metabolism of our 19


### cities right, we will destroy the natural places 20


### and the natural systems in this world, so I got 21


### into policy, and I'm now a member of the Boulder, 22

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### Colo rado City Council. 1


### We're standing an important moment in 2


### time. The implementation of the carbon pollution 3


### guidelines that are proposed by EPA signals the 4


### very first step that our Federal Government has 5


### taken to rein in carbon pollution that threatens 6



### the life that we have enjoyed on this planet. 7


### It's critically important that the government act 8


### through the EPA to implement these guidelines. 9



### The fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, 10


### November, was largely seen as emblematic of the 11


### thorough victory of liberal d emocratic 12


### governments over competing forms of organizing 13


### our society. An American historian named Frances 14


### Fukuyama wrote a book called "The End Of History 15



### and the Last Man," and he argued that what we 16


### were witnessing is not just the end of the Cold 17



### War bu t the end of history, as such, that is the 18


### end point of mankind's ideological evolution and 19



### the universalization of Western liberal 20


### democracy, as the final form of human government. 21


### Sadly, liberal democracies have not been 22

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### protected, much less kind to the environment. 1


### For the most part, cities have had to fight the 2



### Federal Government to make modest advances on the 3



### environmental front while environmental actions 4



### to reduce greenhouse gases

-- 5



### ATTENDEE: Mr. Cowles, could you move 6


### your paper from the microp hone? There's a 7


### microphone on the desk here that your paper is 8


### covering. Yes, sir. That one. Sorry. 9



### MR. COWLES: I'm sorry. 10


### ATTENDEE: Oh, it's okay. 11


### MR. COWLES: Is this the real microphone 12


### I'm speaking into? 13


### [Inaudible response.] 14



### MR. COWLES: I hear the voice going in 15



### and out. 16



### [Inaudible comment.] 17



### ATTENDEE: Sorry about that. 18


### MR. COWLES: All right. So, for the most 19


### part, it's the cities that have had to fight the 20



### Federal Government to make modest advances on the 21



### environmental front, while en vironmental action 22

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### to reduce greenhouse gases at the international 1



### level has been left to conferences and work 2



### groups that have a very poor record of success. 3


### In work on international agreements, the position 4


### of major industrial sectors and that of 5



### govern ments in Europe and the Americas has been 6



### one and the same. 7



### The result is that the United States 8


### negotiated a week Kyoto Protocol, Brazil 9


### negotiated a weak Forest Protection Act, and 10


### Japan makes sure that the Marine Fisheries 11


### Agreement is not up to the daunting task of 12


### protecting worldwide fisheries. The progress 13



### that has been made over the last 25 years to 14


### reduce the emissions of greenhouse gases has 15


### largely been the work of local jurisdictions, 16


### cities creating islands of hope. 17



### In Boulder, Denver, For t Collins, and 14 18


### other cities in Colorado, protection of the 19



### climate is at the center of what these cities do. 20


### City leaders recognize that place

- making carries 21


### with it the fiduciary responsibility to protect 22

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### the world in which we are making great places to 1


### live, to work, and to play. What we have done to 2


### accomplish this is by creating renewable 3


### portfolio standards, demanding that our state do 4


### that, by increasing the energy efficiency of 5


### buildings, designing transportation systems that 6



### use less energy, pr oviding incentives to conserve 7


### energy to our people, and requiring the upgrading 8



### of commercial, industrial, and residential 9


### facilities, and even taking over, in some cases, 10


### as Boulder is doing, the electric distribution 11


### system, in order to provide energy t hat is less 12


### carbon intensive. In Boulder, we will drop the 13


### carbon intensity of our electric generation by 50 14



### percent on Day One. 15



### Seventeen cities in Colorado, and their 16


### climate strategy, are part of an association of 17



### more than 1,000 such cities around th e world who 18



### have likewise made a commitment to reduce 19


### greenhouse gases. Cities in the U.S. are 20


### underfunded and they lack the broad jurisdiction 21


### necessary to pick some of the lowest

- hanging 22

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### fruit available to fight climate change. 1


### These new guidelines emp ower the states 2


### to pick this low

- hanging fruit. While the 3


### guidelines reflect a sea change in federal 4


### action, they are not merely common sense. They 5


### are relatively easy to achieve. Two of the four 6


### building blocks for GHG reduction, chosen by EPA, 7



### are the ones that cities and states have been 8


### using for some time, mainly increasing use of 9


### renewables and increasing energy efficiency. 10


### The other two, increasing the efficiency 11


### of fossil fuels plants and fuel

- switching, are 12



### ones that are within the control of utilities 13


### that are regulated by each state. It is not even 14


### going to cost the utility industry anything, 15



### because they pass along those costs. 16



### Please take this action

-- this is an 17


### important occasion

-- and implement these 18


### guidelines. We have to do this now, for 19



### ourselves, our descendants, and for the other 20



### marvelous creatures with whom we share this 21


### planet. We have to do this and we must. 22

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### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Davis? 1


### MR. DAVIS: Thank you for letting me 2


### speak today. My name is Jeffrey Davis. I 'm 3


### going into my senior year at CSU for mechanical 4


### engineering. I'm involved with an organization 5


### on campus called the Fair Trade Organization, 6


### which has opened my eyes to ethical consumerism 7



### outside the United States. 8


### I'm involved with a spiritual dev elopment 9



### center called the Geller Center, and they focus 10


### on providing resources to the community, 11


### meditation, counseling, book groups, workshops on 12


### how to grow sustainable food, with new technology 13


### that limits water usage and just basically allows 14



### us to ne twork with our community, just to use 15


### recycled materials to be sustainable. 16


### So, this plan is very important to me, 17


### and I support it, and I just, it's

-- I 18


### appreciate it. This is a step in the right 19


### direction. It seems to me that the thing that 20



### steps out the most to me is that I like not to 21


### dwell on the problem but dwell on the solutions, 22

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### and the solution is within each other, within our 1



### communities. It's within ourselves. 2


### And this plan will ultimately be a thorn 3


### in certain regions of the United State s' sides, 4


### but, at the same time, we can all adapt, we can 5



### all come to a solution that lies within us. And, 6



### at the same time, thorns build character. It 7


### hardens our skin and, in my opinion, the United 8



### States needs to build its character, and this 9



### would be a step in the right direction. 10



### Thank you. 11



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 12


### speakers are Katherine Toan and Rachel Carillo, 13


### and if I could just remind folks to spell your 14


### name at the beginning of your statement, and 15


### also, just be aware of the small m icrophones on 16


### the tables. That's what the court reporter is 17


### using to listen to everybody's testimony. 18



### Thanks. 19


### MS. CARILLO: We're going to share this 20


### mic, because that one goes in and out. 21


### MS. BROWN: Okay. Great. Whichever one 22

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### of you wants to start, is fine. 1


### MS. TOAN: Thank you for letting me speak 2


### today. My name is Katherine Toan. That's K

- a

- t

3



### h

- e

- r

- i

- n

- e, and T as in Tom

- o

- a

- n as in Nancy. 4



### I'm an environmental and natural resources 5


### attorney here in Colorado, practicing largely in 6


### oil and gas. I'm here today to discuss the 7


### immediate and long

- term consequences of the EPA's 8



### proposed rule. I'm here to support the proposed 9


### rule and to additionally urge the Federal 10


### Government to end its policy of temporal 11


### discounting when concerning future human li ves in 12


### the context of climate policy more generally. 13


### Climate change is rapidly escalating 14


### towards an existential crisis for humanity, on 15


### that scientists have predicted will cause long

16


### term agricultural instability, water shortages, 17


### disease, population shi fts and coastal 18


### abandonment, storms, fires, infestation, global

19


### scale species loss, and, of course, all of this 20


### leads to massive political disruption, conflict, 21


### and war. We are already seeing the early signs 22

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### of some of these, and they will be layered onto 1


### our already daunting geopolitical challenges, 2


### such as overpopulation, natural resources 3


### scarcity, economic inequality, and weapons 4


### proliferation. 5


### The threat or magnitude of human 6


### suffering could hardly be exaggerated and is all 7


### the more grotesque and uni maginable from where we 8


### sit, the most privileged and wealthy generation 9


### in history, condemning our children so we can set 10


### our air conditioners at 68 degrees without having 11


### to pay half a penny more per kilowatt hour. 12


### Climate change is, I believe, not only 13


### the most serious problem facing humanity today 14



### but it is also one of the most intractable and 15


### complex. Like cigarettes, the thing that brings 16



### pleasures today, and that seems completely 17


### impossible to give up, is building to 18


### catastrophic effect in the futur e, and, like 19


### smokers, we're inclined to enjoy the moment at 20


### the expense of our very likely future

-- our 21


### future, probably. Our children's future, 22

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### definitely. 1


### Our increases in energy consumption over 2


### the last 100 years or so have been without 3


### parallel in human history, and has allowed us to 4


### achieve a level of human dignity and achievement 5


### similarly unparalleled. We put a man on the 6


### moon, sent Voyager beyond the influence of our 7


### star, and connected our world into one instantly 8


### available at our fingertips. I could be in China 9


### tomorrow, just because. 10


### Cheap fossil fuels have also allowed us 11


### to do many foolish things, as well. We push 12



### motorized vehicles across desert soils and 13



### tundras that take hundreds of years to heal. We 14



### spread our houses across the land scape, eating 15


### farmland and requiring even more from our 16



### vehicles. We built cities in deserts and flooded 17


### them with millions of people, demanding water to 18


### be pumped from rivers 100 miles away, and then we 19


### built golf courses and artificial lakes to 20



### entertai n them. 21


### While our highest achievements will 22

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### always be possible, this careless and wanton 1


### devastation would not be possible if the cost of 2


### climate change were factored into the price of 3



### fossil fuels. 4



### In 1970, when we enacted the Clean Air 5



### Act, we had had the strength of character to 6


### require the old plants to keep up with new 7


### technology in a timely manner, our problems today 8



### would be smaller. Coal would have been more 9


### expensive, yes, but that expense is what 10



### incentivizes the investments in renewable 11



### te chnology energy research, development, and 12



### infrastructure. 13


### The problem that we're discussing today 14


### is new technology versus old technology. The 15


### problem is not coal versus natural gas. New 16


### technology for coal plants allow emissions 17



### reductions of over 40 percent of the currently 18


### existing average. Natural gas burns cleanly at 19



### the plant, but does not count for upstream 20


### fugitive emissions, emissions which are often not 21


### detected but float invisibly into the air, and 22

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### includes co

- pollutants with direct human to xicity 1



### such as benzene and other VOCs. 2



### Furthermore, unlike coal mines, the 3



### natural gas well pads spread out over the 4


### landscape in a patchwork of development in and 5


### around population centers, disrupting humans and 6


### ecosystems alike, over hundreds of thousan ds of 7


### acres. Modern fracking is only a decade old, and 8



### we know far too little about the costs to be 9


### making so many long

- term infrastructure 10



### investments in it. 11


### For just one example, despite industry 12


### denials and the EPA leaving its investigation in 13



### Pavilli on, Wyoming, we have evidence of 14


### groundwater contamination, groundwater that 15


### Colorado will need desperately as our climate 16


### becomes drier and less predictable. 17


### As our existing infrastructure, including 18


### our legal and economic subsidies for these 19



### lethal, ad dictive fuels prevents us from making 20


### larger, currently achievable advances in 21



### renewable energy technology. These rules are 22

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### simply an important step forward towards a future 1


### where energy security and environmental security 2



### coexist. 3



### Please do not discou nt the future. The 4


### economics today allow this rule, but the 5



### economics of tomorrow demand it. 6



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. 7



### MS. CARILLO: Thank you, EPA and 8


### everyone, for the opportunity to provide comment. 9


### My name is Rachel Carillo, R

- a

- c

- h

- e

- l C

- a

- r

- i

- l

10



### l

- o, and I'm here as a concerned citizen, a lover 11



### of clean air to breathe, and an avid skier. I'm 12



### renewed to Colorado. It's taken 21 years to get 13



### back here, and I came back for the blue sky, 14


### which isn't evident today. I came back for the 15


### magnificent mountai ns. I came back for skiing. 16



### I came back for these great outdoors, whose 17


### recreation dollars attract more than $13 billion 18



### annually for Colorado and create more than 65,000 19



### full

- time and part

- time jobs in outdoor 20



### recreation. 21



### I've been able to live and tra vel in many 22

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### places throughout my life, and most of these 1


### places have experienced the negative impacts of 2


### climate change, just in the last few years. 3


### Fires and floods across our country and across 4


### the world necessitate, in my opinion, resiliency 5



### and good, resilient climate policy. I have 6



### witnessed the aftermath of floods in Vernonia, 7


### Oregon, landslides in both Baltimore, Maryland, 8


### and Stowe, Vermont, fires in Washington state and 9


### Oregon state, drought in New Mexico. 10


### I've recently returned from traveling in 11


### Southeast Asia, where people of Bangkok were 12


### having to mitigate and adapt to a flood, what's 13


### called a flood economy. The recent typhoon in 14


### the Philippines, as well. The financial toll of 15


### these events are devastating. Your agency 16



### estimates, in 2012 a lone, $100 billion in cost to 17



### the U.S. economy. The toll of Colorado's 2013 18


### floods had heavy economic, social, and 19


### environmental impacts, as well, with estimated

-- 20


### pardon me. Those 10 inches of rain eclipsed the 21



### Colorado sunshine, cast a shadow on the b lue sky 22

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### to the $2 billion in estimated damages. So it 1


### was $13 billion of state income from the great 2



### outdoors in the toll of economic and 3


### environmental damage from unusual climate 4



### activities is evident to me. 5



### I'm a skier and I'm a hiker, and I've 6



### spent a lot of time in Colorado's remarkable 7


### national forests, and I don't know if you all are 8


### aware but national forests and high alpine 9


### environments are particularly vulnerable to 10


### climate change, especially the effects, recently, 11


### of alternating drought and fl oor. One hundred 12



### twenty

- two ski areas across the United States sit 13



### on national forest lands. 14



### There are 12 ski areas in Colorado's 15



### White River National Forest alone. Some of these 16


### ski areas have signed onto what's called a 17


### Sustainable Slopes Initiative and Climate 18


### Challenge of the National Ski Area Association, 19


### and what they've done is create targets for 20


### carbon emissions reduction, from energy 21


### efficiency measures and operations all across 22

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### snow

- making, building infrastructure, and my 1


### personal favorite, t ransportation energy 2


### efficiency and emissions targets. 3


### As a recent resident of Summit County and 4


### a rider of the Summit Stage Bus, I was so happy 5



### to learn how this route, this bus route that 6


### services Arapahoe Basin, Keystone, Copper, and 7


### Breckenridge ski a reas, and the towns of Frisco 8


### and Silverthorne, provides the opportunity for 9



### riders

-- Coloradans and tourists

-- to save 10


### approximately $4,800 pounds of carbon emissions, 11


### per person, annually, just by literally getting 12



### on the bus. 13



### Twenty

- one years ago, I got on the bus of 14


### this climate change and clean air ride. I took 15



### the Green Pledge when I graduated from the 16


### University of Colorado at Boulder, and now I'm 17



### renewed to Colorado and I support EPA's proposed 18


### targets to help bring back our blue sky. I just 19



### wi th that it were brought back today. 20


### Thank you again for the opportunity to 21



### speak. 22

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### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 1


### speakers are Mary Gail Sullivan and Tyler Hamman. 2


### Ms. Sullivan, if you want to go ahead and get 3



### started. 4


### MS. SULLIVAN: All right. T hank you. 5



### MS. BROWN: The middle mic seems to be 6


### working better, if you guys do want to share 7


### that, just press the button to turn it on. 8



### MS. SULLIVAN: Good afternoon. My name 9



### is

-- is it on? My name is Mary Gail Sullivan. 10


### I'm the Manager of Environme ntal Permitting and 11


### Compliance for Northwestern Energy in Butte, 12



### Montana. Northwestern is an investor

- owned 13


### utility. We serve approximately 673,000 14



### customers in Montana, South Dakota, and Nebraska. 15


### Our current base load of approximately 950 16


### megawatts is supplied by a mixture of owned 17



### resources and market purchases, made up on a 18


### consolidated basis of 73 percent coal, 10 percent 19


### wind, 1 percent natural gas, and 16 percent 20



### hydro. 21


### Northwestern Energy appreciate this 22

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### opportunity to provide comments on the pr oposed 1


### rule setting state

- specific carbon dioxide 2


### emission rate goals from existing electric 3


### generating units. The rule, as proposed, could 4


### have significant economic impact on our customers 5



### in Montana and South Dakota. Due to the limited 6


### time today, I wi ll focus my comments on issues 7


### concerning our South Dakota operations. 8



### Northwestern generally supports the EPA 9


### proposal to put the states in the driver's seat 10


### in choosing how to meet the proposed carbon 11


### dioxide emission rate reductions, and appreciates 12



### th e attempt to introduce flexibility into the 13



### process. However, it appears, from our initial 14


### analysis of the proposal, that flexibility is 15



### limited. 16


### For example, for states like South 17


### Dakota, the reliance on Building Block 2, 18


### redispatch of existing natura l gas combined

- cycle 19


### plants to set South Dakota goals, leaves few, if 20


### any, options other than redispatch for the state 21


### to employ to meet those interim and final goals. 22

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### We believe the use of redispatch in South 1


### Dakota is technically unfeasible for the 2



### fo llowing reasons. South Dakota has one coal

3


### fired electric generating unit and one natural 4


### gas combined

- cycle plant. Use of the redispatch 5


### building block results in a singular impact on 6



### the coal

- fired EGU, the Big Stone Plant. The 7


### assumed redispatch incr easing the capacity factor 8


### of the single natural gas combined

- cycle plant to 9


### 70 percent, would reduce net generation at Big 10


### Stone by 1.9 million megawatt

- hours, resulting in 11


### reducing the Big Stone Plant capacity to just 23 12



### percent. 13


### The minimum operating load of Big Stone 14


### is approximately 40 percent of the maximum load. 15



### To achieve a 23

- percent capacity factor would 16


### require the plant be offline at least half the 17


### year, this at a plant that is completing a $400 18


### million upgrade to address the regional haze 19



### r ules. 20


### The Big Stone Plant is jointly owned by 21


### Northwestern Energy and two other companies. 22

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### Each co

- owner relies on Big Stone as a year

- round 1


### base load resource to economically and reliably 2



### serve customers in South Dakota, North Dakota, 3



### Minnesota, and Mon tana. The Big Stone owners and 4


### the natural gas combined

- cycle plant have no 5


### contractual relationship, do not share the same 6



### retail loads, do not have the same firm 7


### transmission rights. Each Big Stone owner has a 8


### firm transmission right from Big Stone to their 9


### respective loads. 10


### The natural gas combined

- cycle plant has 11


### a firm transmission right to serve its loads. 12


### These plants are committed and dispatched by 13


### different entities, with unique commitment and 14


### dispatch processes. Big Stone operates in the 15



### MI SO centralized market. For two co

- owners, MISO 16


### economically dispatches their share of Big Stone 17


### while Northwestern Energy schedules our share to 18



### serve our South Dakota load. The natural gas 19



### combined

- cycle plant is currently dispatched by 20


### the integrated s ystem and will be dispatched by 21


### the Southwest Power Pool beginning in 2015. 22

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### I hope you can see by these examples how 1


### technically difficult, if not infeasible, the 2


### generic application of Building Block 2 is to the 3



### state of South Dakota. Northwestern Energ y 4


### requests that EPA revisit the methodology used to 5


### determine the state goals, and consider the 6



### state

- specific circumstances. The use of 7


### inaccurate assumptions to set goals results in 8



### unreasonable limits on certain EGUs. 9


### Thank you for this opportunity. 10


### Northwestern will be submitting written comments. 11



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Hamman? 12


### MR. HAMMAN: Good afternoon. My name is 13



### Tyler Hamman. That's T

- y

- l

- e

- r H

- a

- m

- m

- a

- n. I'm 14



### the Director of Government Affairs for the 15


### Lignite Energy Council, based in Bi smarck, North 16


### Dakota. I appreciate the opportunity to provide 17



### comments today about the EPA's proposed Clean 18


### Power Plan to regulate carbon dioxide emissions 19


### for existing fossil fuel power plants. 20


### The mission of the Lignite Energy Council 21


### is to preserve, protect, and enhance the lignite 22

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### coal industry to allow for the continued use of 1


### our region's 800

- year supply of lignite coal to 2


### generate electricity, as well as produce 3


### synthetic natural gas and other valuable 4



### byproducts. 5


### The Lignite Energy Council is c oncerned 6


### about the EPA's proposed rule because of its 7


### impact on the use of lignite coal to produce 8


### affordable and reliable electricity. North 9


### Dakota enjoys some of the lowest electricity 10



### rates in the nation because of our abundant 11


### lignite resources. Nort h Dakota produces and 12


### utilizes approximately 30 million tons of lignite 13


### coal annually, providing nearly 80 percent of the 14


### electricity in the state and exporting 15


### electricity to the region. 16


### At the same time, we are one of only 17



### seven clear air states that me et all of the 18


### federal ambient air quality standards. Clearly, 19



### clean air and coal

- fired electricity are not 20


### mutually exclusive, and if the Clean Power Plan 21


### were simply about clean power, then we can safely 22

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### say that our industry has already met that goal. 1



### However, carbon dioxide does not share 2


### the characteristics of pollutants or emissions 3



### such as sulfur, ash, mercury, et cetera, that the 4


### EPA has traditionally regulated. These are 5


### pollutants that are trace elements in the coal, 6



### for which controls can be im plemented at the 7



### power plant. 8


### Since CO2 is the majority byproduct of 9


### burning fossil fuels, the only way to achieve 10


### power reductions at the power plant are through 11


### increased efficient, yet to be proven capture 12


### technology, or by simply reducing power outp ut. 13


### With respect to efficiency, our industry has 14


### already invested over $2 billion and continues to 15


### spend $100 million annually to increase 16


### efficiency and reduce emissions from their 17


### electrical generating units. 18


### Yet, in the proposed rule, the EPA again 19



### ge ts ahead of this current state of technology by 20


### assuming that all coal

- fired units can achieve a 21



### 6

- percent reduction in CO2 emissions through 22

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### efficiency improvements, even as these units add 1



### energy

- intensive and/or efficiency

- reducing 2


### controls to comply wi th other EPA rules. 3


### Furthermore, the EPA has provided no basis for 4



### the 6

- percent number chosen for the rule, or 5


### cites any examples of plants that have been able 6


### to achieve that reduction through existing 7


### technology. Most of the straightforward and 8



### cost

- e ffective measures to improve efficiency at 9


### power plants have already been implemented. 10


### The Lignite Energy Council is also very 11


### concerned with the reliability impacts of the 12



### proposed rule. North Dakota already gets 16 13


### percent of its power from wind, and i t has a 14


### potential for much more. However, integrating 15


### intermittent resources under the grid remains a 16


### challenge. Coal plants were designed to run at a 17



### constant pace. The start

- stop, slow down

- speed 18


### up electric output associated with intermitted 19



### renewabl e energy production can greatly impact 20


### the efficiency and durability of coal

- fired units 21



### that are forced to load follow. 22

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### In short, while wind certainly plays an 1


### important part in our region's portfolio, we are 2


### nearing a crossroads with respect to the amou nt 3


### of wind that can be plugged into the grid without 4


### sacrificing reliability and efficiency. The 5


### remaining building blocks in the proposed rule 6


### present similar challenges with respect to 7


### infrastructure and management of the grid. 8



### Given all of these factor s and the complexity of 9


### the rule of the timeline for implementation is 10


### simply not possible. 11


### Due to the overarching nature of the rule 12


### and the overlap that it back many different 13


### governmental jurisdictions, including other 14


### states, if they choose to parti cipate in a 15


### regional plan, 1 year, and even 2 years, is 16


### simply not sufficient. 17


### The EPA has yet to answer some very basic 18


### yet very important questions, such as how 19


### renewables in one state might be credited to 20


### another, or how the emissions from power 21



### gene rated by one state but exported to another 22

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### are dealt with. Not knowing the answers to these 1


### basic threshold questions until EPA issues its 2


### final rule, even if then, makes it very difficult 3


### for states to even begin developing 4


### implementation plans. 5



### There a re far too many issues to cover 6


### with the proposed rule today. The Lignite Energy 7


### Council will be filing detailed comments with the 8


### EPA by the October deadline, and we look forward 9


### to working with the agency as this process moves 10


### forward. Reducing CO2 emi ssions is a worthy 11


### objective that we are glad to share. However, it 12


### is not a hyperbole to say that the proposed rule 13


### is entirely different from any Clean Air Act 14


### regulation we have faced before. 15



### Affordable and reliable coal

- fired 16


### electricity is instrumen tal to achieving our 17


### standard of living and advantage in the world, 18


### and the EPA needs to work with us on a practical 19


### regulation that will not sacrifice our ability to 20


### continue using this abundant resource. 21


### To close, I'm just going to point out 22

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### that if the re is any nation in the world that is 1


### utilizing its coal resources in the most 2



### efficient and effective manner, it's us. Carbon 3


### dioxide emissions from the U.S. coal fleet only 4



### represent 3 percent of global greenhouse gas 5


### emissions. Reducing emissions from coal plants 6


### by 30 percent, as EPA requires, comes with a high 7


### cost for economy and our business and residential 8


### consumers, with virtually no climate

- related 9


### environmental benefits. We should keep this fact 10



### in mind as we consider the values and virtues of 11


### this rules, and not punish the good actors. 12



### Thank you. 13



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next speakers 14



### are John Horner and John Backlund. 15


### MR. HORNER: My name is John Horner. J

16



### o

- h

- n H

- o

- r

- n

- e

- r. I'm a professor of 17



### psychology at Colorado College, and one o f my 18


### areas of specialty is in gang theory, which looks 19



### at how individuals behave in the context of 20


### others. Gang theory was developed during the 21


### Cold War, and it cannot be credited with winning 22

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### that war. It can be credited with at least not 1


### allowing ourse lves to blow ourselves up. 2


### At present, climate change can be solved 3


### with available technologies. The proposals 4



### before us represent small but necessary steps to 5


### address this crisis. All that is required is the 6



### will to act, and that is the real crisis, wh ether 7


### we will act in a timely way, so as to forestall, 8


### for future generations, an environmental 9



### catastrophe. 10


### In gang theory terms, the climate crisis 11


### is a tragedy of the commons with a moral hazard. 12


### A tragedy of the commons is a dilemma in which 13



### individu als act in their own best interest, but 14


### makes the situation worse for everyone, in the 15



### end. It is also known as the hole in Adam Smith's 16


### hand. In this case, by continuing to burn cheap 17


### fossil fuels, we produce greenhouse gases that 18



### make the prospects wors e for humanity overall. 19



### By themselves, tragedy of the commons are 20


### easily recognized and humanity has developed ways 21



### to deal with them. Indeed, the creation of the 22

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### EPA is a recognition of the tragedy of the 1



### commons

- type problems, and the EPA's mandate is 2


### to address these kinds of problems. What poses a 3


### greater risk for humanity, for the generations 4


### sitting in this room, is the moral hazard 5


### component of climate change. A moral hazard is a 6



### situation in which one can shift the cost of 7



### one's own actions to s omeone else. They are the 8



### freeloaders, the gate

- crashers, anyone who does 9


### not face the full consequences of their actions. 10


### By our inaction on climate change, we 11


### here today will not face the full consequences of 12



### our inactions, but we will instead shift th em to 13


### future generations, and this is where the true 14


### dilemma to this problem lies. Through inactions, 15


### we are threatened to shirk our duty to our 16



### children and to our children's children. 17


### To those who say the economic 18


### consequences for acting are too great, let me 19


### point out three things. First, the economic 20


### consequences of our inactions to future 21


### generations are far greater. Doing nothing now 22

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### means future generations will have to spend far 1


### more combating this crisis. 2


### Second, just because we stop burning 3


### fossil fuels does not mean that we will no longer 4


### need coal, oil, or natural gas. The revolution 5


### of material sciences, which is now taking place, 6


### primarily rely on carbon. In the future, we will 7


### still need coal, oil, and natural gas. We just 8



### won't need to burn them. Instead, we will make 9


### things from them. 10


### Finally, economic history shows that 11


### economic transformation comes through innovation. 12


### The more we rely on burning fossil fuels, 13


### technologies that are now more than a century 14



### old, the more we hold o urselves back from the 15


### technological innovations of the future. The 16


### sooner we cast off fossil fuels as a primary 17


### means for energy production, the sooner we will 18


### enjoy the economic transformations that come with 19


### innovations in energy production. Just the 20


### slightest bit of imagination allows us to 21


### recognize not only the necessity of these 22

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### proposals, for our children and their children, 1


### but also the economic advantages for our own 2


### generation. 3


### Part of the American spirit is not to 4


### shirk our duty. Thomas Pa ine said it best. "If 5


### there must be trouble, let it come in my time, 6


### that my children may have peace." It is the duty 7


### for those here today to solve the climate crisis 8


### now, not to pass that burden on to our children. 9



### Thank you. 10



### MS. BROWN: Mr. Backlund. 11


### MR. BACKLUND: Is this the microphone 12



### that works? 13


### MR. HORNER: This one obviously does. 14



### MS. BROWN: Go ahead and turn that one 15


### off and try the other, because the issue is that 16


### it's trying to adjust to the volume of people's 17


### voices, so that the output is consistent, which 18


### is clearly causing some difficulties. But we 19


### were told if you tried to speak in an even 20



### volume, it should work. 21


### MR. BACKLUND: Okay. I'll give it a go. 22

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### I think I can be heard. 1



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. 2



### MR. BACKLUND: Okay. Good afte rnoon. My 3



### name is John Backlund, B

- a

- c

- k

- l

- u

- n

- d. I live 4



### at 287 Harrison Street in Denver, where I've been 5


### a resident in the state for 30 years. I'm a 6


### business financing consultant. My education is 7


### bachelor of arts degree in political science and 8



### econo mics. 9



### You see, I'm not a technical or a 10


### scientific person per se, given all the expertise 11


### you're going to hear today. I also have an MBA 12


### from the Kellogg School of Business in Evanston, 13


### Illinois, and I basically am here because it's a 14


### great opportunity for me to express myself and 15



### say that, much to our

-- I agree with our 16


### previous speaker that climate change is the 17


### greatest threat, existential threat to humanity. 18



### It's been well established. 19


### The scientific community ranks it as a 20



### greater threat than being hit by an asteroid on 21


### this planet, or massive plagues or nuclear 22

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### annihilation. That is our biggest threat, and 1


### the perspective I'm going to give today is a 2


### little bit different. It's kind of why I've

-- 3


### what got me here, and my life's history. I'm 4


### going to tell you some stories, I think, maybe 5


### before some of your times. 6


### So back when I was in college, in the 7


### late 1960s, there was a lot of protesting going 8


### on in the streets. One of the types of protests, 9


### unlike the, of course, war protests, was ag ainst 10


### global warming, and I saw this and didn't know 11


### what it really was, and there were placards and 12


### signs that some of the protesters carried around, 13


### that had the phrase, "Eradicate the internal 14


### combustion engine," which seemed, obviously, 15



### awful extreme. 16


### I was taking some sciences classes and I 17


### asked some of my professors about, "What is this? 18


### What is this about?" and they said it's a real 19


### threat, but it's probably not necessary at that 20


### time, 45 years ago, to consider eradicating the 21



### internal combustion engine, but we had to do 22

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### something over the next few decades to resolve 1



### this issue. 2


### So, over the coming next few decades, as 3


### I got in the business world, I was watching and 4


### reading about it and saw these, a modicum of 5


### efforts to address climate change

-- you know, 6


### turn up our thermostats in the summer and turn 7



### them down in the winter. I remember President 8


### Carter wearing a cardigan sweater. But it was 9


### more relating to the source of our oil coming 10


### from unstable political climates, or political 11



### entities. 12



### I n the '80s, there were the mileage 13


### mandates for cars. In the '90s, my experience 14


### was that, I knew we were getting late in the 15


### game, and we had to make changes, of course, in 16


### which you're proposed today, your proposing, or 17


### your proposed regulations. I bou ght a car and 18


### told friends of mine, it was probably the last 19


### internal combustion engine, gasoline

- driven car 20


### that I would buy. They looked at me and said, 21


### "What are you talking about?" Some of them did, 22

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### and I was surprised that didn't now. 1



### So as the n ext decade turned, it was 2


### really getting to be a serious issue, that we 3


### weren't addressing this irreversible problem, so 4


### I got involved in a group here in Denver, an 5


### entrepreneurial group that was dealing with 6


### creating clean energy technologies, and I coul d 7


### quickly see that there was plenty of technology 8



### around to address this issue, and it was unfair 9



### for really clean energy sources to compete on an 10


### even keel with dirty energy sources, and it's 11


### always, always cheaper to be dirty than it is to 12



### be clean. 13



### So I could see it was public policy, so 14


### I'm not on the board of a group here in Colorado 15



### called Conservation Colorado, and I think we've 16


### taken a strong position in favor of the proposed 17


### regulations. I think after waiting 40 years, 18


### it's high time that we do s omething. We're past 19


### overdue, and I really applaud what you're doing 20


### and what you're proposing, and look forward to 21


### the enactment of these regulations. 22

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### And I'm a free

- market, low

- tax, less

1


### government Republican, but I think we need 2


### aggressive public poli cy, because the true cost 3



### of carbon is not reflected in our free market 4


### economy. Until that price of carbon

-- we'd love 5



### to see carbon taxes, but in lieu of carbon taxes 6


### and cap and trade, we're going to have to do 7



### mandates, such as this one. So I think this is 8



### the proper way to go, and I look forward to your 9


### enactment, and I thank you for your time, and 10


### applaud you all for listening to 400 people in 11



### the last several days. 12



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 13


### speakers are Maddie Lips and Mary Lou Church. 14


### MS. LIPS: Hi. My name is Maddie Lips. 15


### I've grown up in Colorado and been an athlete in 16


### the sport of rowing, or crew, here in Colorado 17


### and also at Yale University in Connecticut. I 18


### just returned from China where I was competing in 19



### an international row ing competition. When we 20


### first went out on water to practice for our race, 21


### that air was so heavy with smog, and even taking 22

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### a few strokes I could feel the pollution in my 1


### lungs, as I tried to breathe. 2


### I thought back to the clear mountain air 3



### in Colorad o, where I grew up. But how long will 4


### our relatively clean air last if we don't prevent 5


### power plants from emitting carbon pollution 6


### unchecked, and how can we expect other countries 7


### to change their emissions if we don't lead the 8



### way? 9



### As a rower, I've come to love being 10


### outside on water, and, of course, breathing is a 11



### fundamental component of any sport. But as a 12


### person, preserving our clean air and our future 13


### on this planet has to be something that takes 14


### policy priority in our country. We have to act 15



### if w e are to clean up the pollution that is 16


### threatening our air quality, in Colorado and the 17


### U.S. I've seen what happens when air quality is 18


### not protected, and I realize that we only realize 19



### how much we cherish clean air once we've lost it. 20



### I strongly suppor t limits on carbon 21


### pollution from power plants, and urge the EPA to 22

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### act to clean up our air. 1



### Thank you. 2



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. If you could turn 3


### that microphone off. 4



### MS. CHURCH: I can't hear you. 5


### MR. RISLEY: Yeah, push the middle 6



### button, and then if you wouldn't mind turning 7



### hers off. 8



### MS. BROWN: Great. Yeah, go ahead. 9



### MS. CHURCH: Thank you very much. My 10


### name is Mary Lou Church. Do I have to spell it? 11



### Okay. M

- a

- r

- y L

- o

- u C

- h

- u

- r

- c

- h. I'm 86 years 12



### old. I live in Salida, Colorado, and I thank you 13


### for giving me an opportunity to speak today. 14


### Nineteen years ago, I had a massive heart attack. 15


### After Code Blue three times on the operating 16


### table, a triple bypass, and a 6

- week hospital 17


### stay, part of that being in a basement room next 18



### to the morgue, I have 35 percent of my heart 19


### working. I made it through all that. 20



### I take good care of myself. I know 21



### because of my age and my heart, I need to be 22

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### extra aware of what I do and how I live. I watch 1


### my diet, I exercise, I volunteer in my community, 2



### I'm a n activist. I participate in events that 3


### are important to me, and I care. I care about 4


### what happens to my family, my friends, my 5


### community, my country, my world

-- all of it. 6



### Even though I have control over much of 7


### my life, there are things I cannot con trol, like 8


### the temperature of the air. I am very much 9


### affected by heat. When it gets hot, I have what 10


### my daughter calls a meltdown. I get light

11



### headed, I can't breathe, and I can't think 12


### clearly. It really is kind of a crazy effect. 13



### My heart or my lun gs don't like it. 14


### As the temperatures are raising because 15


### of CO2 emissions, these episodes happen more 16


### frequently. I can't do my exercise walk as 17



### frequently as I want and need to. I can't 18


### volunteer and participate in events that I want 19



### to more often. A s you know, the last 2 years 20


### were the fourth hottest and the hottest years in 21


### record in this country. Statistics show that 22

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### this heat causes more problems for the elderly, 1


### the young, the sick, and the poor, we who have 2


### the least power to do anything about it. 3


### Some say warming temperatures will mean 4


### fewer deaths, but reports show these reductions 5


### are not expected to compensate for the increase 6



### in heat

- related deaths. The increase of CO2 and 7


### methane in the atmosphere is affecting our 8



### environment. The Clean Power Plan is a step 9


### forward in helping to reduce the devastation. 10



### I urge you to pass the Clean Power Plan. 11


### It is imperative we work to save our environment 12


### and our planet. Please act on this most 13


### important issue. 14



### Thank you. 15



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. 16


### MS. CHURCH: If you have any questions or 17


### anything. 18


### MS. BROWN: No. We really appreciate 19


### your testimony, though. Thank you. 20



### MS. CHURCH: Sorry. Good. 21



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. No, there are no 22

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### questions. 1



### MS. CHURCH: Thank you. 2



### MS. BROWN: Our next s peaker is Peter 3



### Wolf. 4


### MR. WOLF: Good afternoon. My name is 5



### Peter Wolf. I'm a Colorado native and an 6



### educator, and I'm here as a concerned American 7



### citizen and an educator, and a Colorado native, 8


### to voice my support today for the necessary and 9



### immediate action on climate change and the 10


### dangerous carbon polluting that's the cause of 11



### it. 12


### Climate change is no longer some 13


### questionable theory that may or may not be a real 14


### problem, that we can maybe address in the future. 15


### It's happening now, and it's affec ting everybody. 16


### We have a moral obligation to our children, our 17


### grandchildren, and future generations to leave 18


### them a climate, a planet, an environment that 19


### they can enjoy a decent lifestyle without being 20


### poisoned. 21


### I strongly support the Environmental 22

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### Pr otection Agency in using its authority, under 1


### the Clean Air Act, which was reaffirmed by the 2



### Supreme Court, to protect our health and well 3


### being from the dangerous carbon pollution from 4


### our nation's power plants. U.S. power plants are 5


### responsible for over 30 percent of the carbon 6


### pollution in our country that is fueling climate 7


### change, endangering our health, and affecting our 8


### food supply. Every day power plants are dumping 9


### dangerous amounts of carbon pollution into the 10


### air, with complete disregard to the impact on the 11



### health of humankind and Planet Earth, and it's 12


### imperative that we act now. 13


### According to the American Lung 14



### Association, almost half of all Americans are 15


### breathing unhealthy levels of dirty air, and 16



### under the Clean Power Plan, power plant car bon 17


### pollution can be cut by 30 percent by 2030, from 18


### 2005 levels, which will result in huge benefits 19



### for our health, the economy, and the planet. I 20


### know that the EPA calculates it by 2030. We can 21


### avoid up to 6,600 premature deaths every year, 22

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### 150,000 chi ld asthma attacks, 3,300 heart 1


### attacks, and 490,000 days of missed work or 2



### school. 3


### So these safeguards are going to provide 4


### opportunities for investments in efficient and 5


### renewable energy sources like wind and solar, 6


### creating the jobs of the future and bu ilding an 7


### energy infrastructure that's going to be safer, 8


### healthier, and more environmentally friendly. 9


### So this rule is a step in the right 10


### direction, addressing the greatest threat of our 11


### time. Carbon pollution is fueling more frequent 12



### severe and extrem e weather, and causing 13


### temperatures to rise across the globe, and I know 14


### that just in 2011 to 2013, damages from extreme 15


### weather events have exceeded $200 billion, and 16



### those are costs that every taxpayer has to share. 17


### So from the devastating floods here i n 18


### Colorado last September, to the ongoing drought 19


### in the Southwest, we're already experiencing the 20


### effects of climate change on our lives, the lives 21


### of all of humankind, our food supply, and the 22

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### economy. 1


### There is a 19th century philosopher named 2



### Arthur Sc hopenhauer, who found that all truth 3


### passes through three stages. First it's 4


### ridiculed. Secondly, it's violently opposed, and 5


### lastly and finally, it's accepted by the masses 6


### as being self

- evident. Well, according to 97 7


### percent of all climate scientists, the link 8


### between carbon pollution and climate change is no 9



### longer open for debate. It's a done deal. 10


### Countless studies and reports, including 11


### this year's latest Intergovernmental Panel on 12


### Climate Change and National Climate Assessment 13


### have put this is sue to rest. The truth that 14


### climate change is real is clearly self

- evident, 15


### and now is the time to take meaningful action, 16



### before it's too late. 17


### Thank you for your time. 18


### MS. BROWN: Thank you. At this time, 19


### we're going to take another break, and we'll 20



### reconvene in this room at 4:30. 21


### [Recess taken from 4:20 to 4:35 p.m.] 22

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### MS. BROWN: We just are waiting for the 1



### next set of speaker names that we can call, and 2


### then we'll get started, so it should only be 3



### another minute or two. 4



### Our next two speakers are C onnie Luke and 5


### Don Scrimgeour. 6


### I'm sorry. Just to kind of refresh, for 7


### anybody who hasn't been in, I'm going to call two 8



### at a time

-- well, at this point we don't have 9



### that many

-- but when your name is called, come 10


### up. Both speakers will come up, sit i n one of 11


### the seats, and take turns speaking. You'll have 12



### 5 minutes. The timer will indicate. When it's 13


### green, you have 5 minutes left. When you have 1 14


### minute left, it will go to yellow, and then when 15


### you have about 15 seconds left, it will flash red 16



### an d then a buzzer will go off. 17


### Mr. Scrimgeour, did you want to come up, too? 18


### And only one of those microphones can be 19


### on at a time, so when you're done speaking, just 20


### press the button to turn it off. They're both 21



### off now, so you'll have to push the button to 22

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### turn it on. 1



### MS. LUKE: Okay. Do you want to go 2



### first? 3



### MR. SCRIMGEOUR: No. You can. 4



### MS. LUKE: Okay. Can you hear me now? 5



### MS. BROWN: Yes. 6


### MS. LUKE: Okay. Hi. My name is Connie 7


### Luke, and I'm here today to speak in support of 8



### EPA's plan to red uce carbon pollution. 9


### When I was growing up on a farm in Iowa, 10



### I heard a lot of messages that helped form my 11


### belief that everyone is responsible to be good 12


### caretakers of the earth. Smokey the Bear said 13


### "Only you can prevent forest fires." There are 14



### no l itterbug signs along the highway. Chief Iron 15


### Eyes Cody told me, "People start pollution. 16


### People can stop it." And the indigenous peoples' 17


### website says, "Treat the Earth well. We don't 18



### inherit the earth from our ancestors. We borrow 19



### it from our childre n." 20



### Today we don't see a lot of trash on the 21


### roads, Cleveland's Cuyahoga River isn't burning, 22

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### and new houses are no longer built with lead 1


### paint and asbestos. We have made some progress 2


### in treating our Earth well. But when I look at 3



### the Front Range foot hills from my home in 4



### Loveland, I often see how much work is needed to 5


### reduce air pollution. That brown haze that 6


### obscures my view is not what I want my daughter 7


### and granddaughter breathing. Coughing used to be 8


### something that you heard in the wintertime, when 9


### the flu was going around. Today it's impossible 10


### to go anywhere without hearing people cough. 11


### Opponents of the EPA are going to say, 12


### undoubtedly, that it's too expensive and it's 13


### impossible to meet the goals, that we are all 14


### against the government g etting in their way, and 15


### I'm sure they'll say it's going to cost jobs. I 16


### remember the same arguments being made against 17


### the addition of catalytic converters to reduce 18


### air pollution, and against adding safety belts to 19



### reduce auto deaths. Those changes wer e going to 20


### be too expensive. They were going to put the car 21


### makers out of business and people wouldn't be 22

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### able to afford those big, fancy cars. Yet, today 1



### there are lots of cars sold, and when you hear 2


### about an accident, it's usually the people not 3



### weari ng seat belts who end up dead. 4


### President Kennedy set a goal for us to 5


### send a man to the moon and bring him back alive. 6


### It sounded impossible to a lot of people, but we 7


### did it. Last fall, our governor set a goal for 8


### all the major roads damaged by the Sep tember 9


### floods to be repaired and back in service by 10


### December 1st. Remembering how long it took to 11


### repair Highway 34 after the '76 flood, I thought 12


### that was an impossible goal. Yet, through the 13


### great teamwork between private, municipal, state, 14



### and federal resources, those roads were open 15



### before December 1st. 16


### It's time now to stop the frightened 17


### defeatist refusal to clean up our air and step up 18


### to our responsibility to do what we can to lead 19


### the world in improving the quality of the Earth's 20



### atmosphere for future generations. I'm tired of 21


### hearing the whining about what we can't do. 22

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### Things are only impossible until we do them. 1



### Thank you. 2



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Press the button. 3


### MR. SCRIMGEOUR: Hi. My name is Don 4


### Scrimgeour. I live in Boulder, and wha t brings 5


### me here is I've been doing environmental 6


### consulting work for much of my life, and the 7


### current conditions that I see happening around me 8


### frighten me more than anything I have seen in the 9



### past, and I'm concerned that we haven't been 10


### taking enough ac tion to deal with the 11


### circumstances, and I'm here, definitely, in favor 12


### of the proposed rule controlling power plan 13



### emissions. 14


### I've worked in the past both for 15


### government industry. It's always been my goal to 16


### tell the truth, whatever it was presented wit h, 17


### which often boils down to telling what is going 18


### gone and how you need to accept and adapt to it. 19


### I represent only my own opinions in this 20


### particular presentation. 21


### Last year, I left my house in Boulder to 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### go get a Shop

- Vac for one of my brothers, who 1



### o wned a house, whose basement was being flooded. 2


### The floor was pouring in through the sump pump 3


### area in the house, and so there were no Shop

- Vacs 4


### left in the city, so I was trying to leave the 5


### city to go and find one for him. I'd made a 6



### connection off of I

- 25 and 135th. 7


### On my way, it turns out that the entire 8


### city was closed. Every exit out of the city was 9


### blocked, so I ended up driving in circles. The 10


### part of my car that is the protective thing 11


### underneath the engine started acting like a scoop 12



### and wa s pushing water, and it was just kind of 13


### scaring me that I better stop the car and get 14



### out. 15



### So I got out, started to walk home, and 16


### on Baseline Road, which is a major thoroughfare 17


### through Boulder, it ended up being a lake, and me 18



### and several other peopl e were walking along, and 19


### all of us started going down in one direction. 20


### It was no longer passable, so I started coming 21


### back, and I went by the Williams Village student 22

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### towers, and the water was coming at me in like 4

- 1


### foot heights, and what had been flat ground 2


### previously was now like a rushing flood. And all 3


### the newscasts say don't walk into rushing water, 4



### but there was no choice. I was surrounded and I 5


### was trapped in the middle of it. 6


### I then, as I was trying to exit, I came 7


### to a bridge, an overpass, o ver what had been a 8



### creek, and the water was now about 4 feet above 9


### that bridge, where in the past it had been 10


### probably 8 or 10 feet below. So, I ultimately 11


### made it through, but just that experience alone 12


### gave me a personal sense of what this means, in 13



### ad dition to talking to people in Lyons, whose 14


### houses, at one time, sat on the river edge, and 15



### now the location of the house is now a river, 16


### where the house itself has been obviously 17


### removed, and the course of the river has changed 18


### its path, in addition to a lot of people going 19


### through the experience of having sewage and other 20


### kinds of detrimental stuff flowing through their 21



### houses. 22

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### So, you know, we, in this country have 1


### not taken a stand on this because these changes 2


### are gigantic that we're looking at, both with 3


### what we need to do to deal with global warming, 4


### and what the consequences could potentially be. 5


### So my sense is that if we don't act, things are 6


### going to get increasingly worse, and it's going 7


### to be increasingly difficult to deal with things 8



### the way t hey've been in the past, in terms of 9


### food production, in terms of dealing with sea 10



### level rise, and the list is almost endless. 11



### So my thoughts are that wherever we 12


### start, we need to begin, and I know it's 13



### difficult to relate to cause and effect on a 14



### global scale like we're dealing with, but people 15


### are beginning to pin down the relationship 16


### between cause and effect, essentially, and using 17


### large data sets, we're getting able to pin down 18


### events, a single event attribution is becoming an 19


### increasingly possible p rocess. There is an 20


### organization called Climate Corporation. 21


### And, so, in closing, I think the proposed 22

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### rules are a good deal for the opposition, and I 1


### think they're a good start for the proponents, 2


### and I wish you luck. 3



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. 4



### MR. SCRIMG EOUR: Thanks. The next two 5


### speakers are Shakti and Jeffrey Yen. 6



### MS. BROWN: You hit the button to turn 7


### that mic off. Now you can turn the other one on. 8


### SHAKTI: My name is Shakti and I'm on 9


### Lakewood City Council, and I'm here today 10


### speaking on my own behalf. 11


### How does global warming affect Lakewood? 12


### So far this year, my garden has been hailed on 13


### five times, in the last 3 years, the tornado 14



### sirens have directed me to the basement three 15


### times, and during the flooding, Bear Creek Lake 16



### Park, one of the ma jor parks in Lakewood, flooded 17



### under 70 feet of water. That cost us hundreds of 18


### thousands of dollars, but it was a success story 19



### because the dam successfully held the waters, so 20


### the neighborhoods downstream did not flood. 21


### We have done a lot of planning a round 22

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### extreme water events and we will continue to do 1


### that. We also have been taking steps to address 2


### the causes of global warming. We've looked at 3


### the efficiency of our buildings to reduce carbon 4


### emissions and save money, and just Monday we 5



### voted to pur chase 274, I think, kilowatts of 6


### solar electricity over the next 20 years. 7


### The problems that global warming creates 8


### are created on the ground, in real practical way 9


### that we experience, and that is why cities have 10


### been taking action, even though we know th at if 11


### we act alone it won't work. And so that is why 12


### it's important that the Federal Government also 13


### take action to level the playing field but also 14


### to address global warming, because, ultimately, a 15


### lot of the costs are going to be borne by local 16


### jurisdic tions. 17



### So I'm here today to support the Clean 18



### Power Plan. 19



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. If you could turn 20


### your mic off then, so that one's on. 21


### MR. YEN: Thank you for the opportunity 22

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### to speak about the proposed Clean Power Plan. My 1



### name is Jeff Yen. I have a Ph.D. in atmospheric 2


### science and I did climate research for 12 years. 3



### Even though we've already learned enough to know 4


### that humans are causing climate change, I started 5


### to see that science alone was not enough. I 6



### began to explore what actually moves us to take 7


### real action against carbon pollution. So now, 8


### I'm no longer a climate scientist. Today, I'm 9



### here to share why I, myself, am moved to support 10



### the EPA's Clean Power Plan, because I can see how 11


### climate change is already hurting people in my 12



### native state of Hawaii. 13


### I was born in Honolulu and I grew up 14


### going to the beach. I love the beauty and the 15


### colors of the ocean water, and relaxing to the 16


### sound of breaking waves, as well as the memories 17


### of great times going to the beach as a kid. 18



### There's this song, "White Sandy Beach of Hawaii," 19


### sung by the late Israel Kamakawiwo'ole, that 20


### brings me back to that place. 21



### So, of course, there's also a powerful, 22

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### dangerous side to the ocean. As the older, wiser 1


### folks would always tell us when we were kids, 2



### never t urn your back to the ocean, because there 3



### could always be powerful currents and large, 4


### unexpected waves could easily sweep you away. 5


### And, as we'll see, even the land, solid as it may 6



### seem, can be worn down by the relentless power of 7



### the ocean. 8



### So knowi ng that power, my biggest fear 9


### about climate change has always been sea level 10


### rise. According to the 2014 National Climate 11


### Assessment, sea level has already risen by 8 12


### inches since 1900. But what does this really 13


### mean for real people? First, let's take a walk 14



### down famous Waikiki Beach. Much of Waikiki Beach 15


### is a thin strip of sand in between the ocean on 16



### one side and hotels on the other. 17


### So what happens if you raise sea level, 18


### even by as little as a foot? According to Dolan 19



### Eversole, a Hawaii coastal hazards expert, we 20


### should expect that one foot of sea level rise 21


### will cause the shoreline to move inland by 100 22

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### feet. So the ocean moves inland; the hotels 1


### aren't going anywhere, and you get what you see 2


### in Waikiki now, which is, there are places where 3



### t here is no beach left. There's just the hotel, 4


### there's a cement walkway on top of the retaining 5


### wall and that's protecting the hotel, and there's 6


### the ocean below. No white sandy beach in Hawaii. 7


### According to the 2014 National Climate 8



### Assessment, the los s of Waikiki Beach could lead 9


### to an annual loss of $2 billion in visitor 10


### expenditures. For many of my friends who work in 11



### the hotels, in the restaurants, for the airlines 12


### in Hawaii, this would be catastrophic. If a 13


### hotel goes out of business, hard

- workin g people 14


### that I care about lose their jobs and struggle to 15



### feed their families. 16


### But it's not just hotels that are 17



### threatened by sea level. People's homes are 18


### already being damaged, as well. Just this past 19



### Christmas, near Sunset Beach, on the island of 20



### O ahu, on the North Shore, a few days of big waves 21



### caused the fast

- moving collapse of the shore that 22

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### damaged at least five homes. One homeowner was 1


### forced to cut away rooms just to save the rest of 2



### the house. 3



### When people's homes are threatened by 4


### rising sea levels, what choices do you have? 5


### According to Chip Fletcher, a University of 6


### Hawaii coastal geologist, you can build a sea 7


### wall to buy time, to save the houses, but that 8



### may destroy the beaches nearby, or you can save 9


### the beaches by not building a sea w all, which 10


### condemns people's homes to destruction. If we do 11


### nothing to slow down climate change, we have to 12


### make more and more of these excruciatingly 13


### painful decisions. 14



### Of course, when many of these homes and 15



### hotels were built, we did not know that ther e 16


### would someday be sea level rise that would force 17


### us to make these kinds of painful choices. 18


### Likewise, when we started burning coal to make 19


### electricity, we did not know that it would cause 20



### sea levels to rise. But now, we do know. 21


### That is why I'm here t o support the EPA's 22

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### Clean Power Plan, and that's why I support strong 1


### rules to limit carbon emissions from power 2


### plants, and that's also why I appreciate all of 3


### the important actions you're taking at the EPA to 4


### slow down the painful effects of climate chan ge. 5



### Thank you. 6



### MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next speaker 7



### is Lois Dahl. 8


### MS. DAHL: Hi. My name is Lois Dahl. 9


### I'm a teacher of English as a Second Language, 10



### and I live in Denver, Colorado, and I moved here 11


### from Chicago in 2008, to be near my daughters who 12


### live here, and also to enjoy the weather here in 13



### Denver. I now have two grandsons, who are 3 14


### years old and 5 months old, and I'm worried about 15



### the increase in asthma and other illnesses that 16


### are associated with air pollution. 17


### My own lungs are especially sensitive, 18


### since I've had pneumonia several times, but I'm 19


### more concerned about my grandsons, who have lived 20


### all of their short lives in the air pollution 21


### from the energy plants, which we know produce 22

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### most of the air pollution. They and other little 1



### chil dren deserve the right to breathe clean air, 2



### eat clean food, and drink clean water. We need 3


### clean energy sources to be developed in this 4



### country. 5


### I changed what I was going to say a 6


### little bit, so I have to check things. I have 7


### also experienced the un usual extreme heat here 8



### the last couple of years. Last summer we had 9


### many days of over 100 degrees, which made it 10


### impossible for me to go outside, because I've had 11


### heatstroke a couple of times and I can't go out 12



### in that extreme heat. So last summer was 13



### d ifficult for those of us who have to stay out of 14


### that extreme heat, and especially little 15


### children. They are more susceptible to 16



### heatstroke. 17



### And then, of course, in addition to all 18


### of the pollution from the energy sources now, 19


### when fracking is involved an d we introduce 20


### pollution to the water and the air from that, 21


### we're increasing the air pollution and water 22

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### pollution even more. 1


### I know that we're talking about limiting 2


### the emissions plants, but I also think we need to 3


### think about really changing our whole ideas about 4


### energy. Some people say it's too expensive to 5


### change to clean energy, but other countries have 6


### done it successfully and we're a lot better off 7



### than many of them are. 8


### Money is not as important as health. 9


### Other people say people will lose the ir jobs. 10


### This is true, and it has happened in the past, in 11



### other industries, where workers had to be 12


### retrained for different jobs. This is something 13


### that can be done. Lots of jobs that used to be 14


### common are no longer available now, but that 15



### doesn't mean that we should keep those jobs 16



### around. For example, a lamp

- lighter, or a 17



### railroad caboose man. 18


### We have about 360 days a year of sunshine 19


### here in Colorado, although it doesn't look like 20


### it these last couple of days, so we should be 21



### able to do a fantast ic solar energy here. And 22

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### we've also got some windy places, especially 1



### southern Colorado. I noticed the last time I 2


### drove to Santa Fe that they did put some wind 3


### turbines up there where I was thinking they 4



### should, so that was good. All of these can 5



### empl oy people in new jobs, with new training. 6


### Holding on to dirty energy just doesn't 7


### make sense, with the Earth heating up due to 8


### pollution. While we're switching over to cleaner 9


### energy, we must control the amount of pollution 10


### we are allowing into our air a nd water, and I 11


### hope that this bill or the amendment goes through 12


### and it passes, and we can have some control over 13


### the pollution now, and then eventually even 14



### reduce it further. 15



### Thank you. 16


### MS. BROWN: Thank you. That is going to 17



### conclude the afternoon s ession of the hearing. 18


### We're going to take a break, and sometime shortly 19


### after five the evening session should reconvene 20



### in this room. 21


### We really appreciate all of you 22

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### attending. 1


### [Whereupon, at 4:56 p.m., the Public 2


### Hearing concluded.] 3

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