1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Public Hearing on

7 Proposed Clean Power Plan for

8 Existing Power Plants

9

10

11

12 9:03 a.m. to 4:56 p.m.

13 Wednesday, July 30, 2014

14

15 Room A

16 EPA Region 8 Building

17 1595 Wynkoop Street

18 Denver, Colorado 80202

19

20

21

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
2

1 OPENING COMMENTS:

2 SHAWN MCGRATH, Regional Administrator, 

3 Region 8, EPA

4

5 EPA PANEL 1:

6 JENNY NOONAN, Panel 1 Chair

7 COLIN BOSWELL

8 LAURA FARRIS 

9

10 EPA PANEL 2:

11 AMANDA CURRY BROWN, Panel 2 Chair; 

12 EPA Office of Air Quality, Planning, 

13 and Standards, North Carolina

14 DAVID RISLEY, EPA Office of Atmospheric Programs

15 RYAN SIMS, EPA Office of Atmospheric Programs

16

17 

18

19

20

21

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
3

1 C O N T E N T S

2 MORNING SESSION

3 PAGE

4 TRINITY COFED, Coal miner 17

5 MIKE DALPIAZ, Coal miner and international

6 Vice president, United Mine Workers of

7 America, Western United States 20

8 ALBERT HARMON, Coal miner and president,

9 Local 1307, United Mine Workers of

10 America 26

11 DAVE MAGGIO, Coal miner and President,

12 Local 9958, United Mine Workers of

13 America 30

14 RICK MORAL, President, UMWA Local 1984 35

15 JOHN FRIEDRICH, Climate Parents 40

16 LEONARD BAILEY, Coal miner 46

17 STUART SANDERSON, Colorado Mining Association 49

18 JENNIFER HAMPTON 54

19 DR. MARTI DOYLE, Professor 57

20 COLIE KRAFT, Student 61

21 ALEXANDER OSIF, Coal miner 66

22 DIANE SCHRACK, Colorado resident 69

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
4

1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 MORNING SESSION (continued)

4 DON SHELLEY, Coal miner 74

5 STEVEN DSCHAAK, Coal miner 77

6 PHIL RUSSELL, Retired coal miner, 

7 Navajo Nation 80

8 ROBERT CLARKE, Retired coal miner 84

9 STEVE FEAGINS, Mobile equipment operator,

10 President, UMW Local 1972 76

11 ANNE EKELAD, Resident of Colorado 91

12 JEREMY EPSTEIN, Harcourt Brown & Carey 95

13 LISA HICKEY, Alpern Myers Stuart 99

14 MICHAEL HENDRYX, School of Public Health,

15 Indiana University 104

16 CHUCK NELSON, Retired miner, Ohio Valley

17 Environmental Coalition 108

18 MARSHALL JOHNSON, To'Nizhoni Ani, 

19 Navajo Nation 114

20 JAMES DIETZ, Twin Valleys Public 

21 Power District 117

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
5

1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 MORNING SESSION (continued)

4 ROBIN BLAKEMAN, Ohio Valley 

5 Environmental Coalition 122

6 PATRICIA POPPLE, Resident of Wisconsin 127

7 KEN SCHMITT, Resident of Wisconsin 133

8 HEATHER ANDERSEN, Resident of Wisconsin 137

9 DR. CRISPIN PIERCE, University of 

10 Wisconsin, Eau Claire 141

11 SUSAN RINGDAHL 146

12 ROSALYNN BAUER 147

13 ANNE KELLY COHAN, Resident of Colorado 150

14 RICHARD ANDREWS, Boulder Innovative

15 Technologies 153

16 EVA NELIGH, Environment Colorado 158

17 JEAN BASSETT 161

18 TATIANA MAXWELL, Resident of Colorado 162

19 JOHN C. BOLLINGER, ECE Engineering Services 166

20 ROBERT CASTELLINO, Photographer 170

21 SHERRY OLSON, Atmospheric chemist 174

22 JULIE BUCK, Resident of Colorado 176

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
6

1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 MORNING SESSION (continued)

4 GARRETT BEIGLE, Resident of Colorado 181

5 THOMAS WALCH, Grand Valley Rural 

6 Power Lines 182

7 SUZANN THOMAS, Resident of Colorado 186

8 ROSS CUNNIFF, Resident of Colorado 191

9

10 AFTERNOON SESSION

11 PAGE

12 RICK BLOTTER, Resident of Colorado 201

13 STEVE TOMAC, Basin Electric Power 

14 Cooperative 206

15 WILLIAM MIDCAP, Colorado Rural Electric

16 Association 211

17 RON NELSEN, Resident of Nevada 215

18 WILL GREEN, Resident of Arizona 218

19 CHRIS MENGES, City of Aspen 220

20 PEGGY ROLLINS, Citizens for Clean Air 225

21 TIMOTHY J. LINDAHL, Wheat Belt Public

22 Power District 229

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
7

1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 AFTERNOON SESSION (continued)

4 JONATHAN SINGER, Representative, 

5 Colorado House District 11 234

6 CAROL STURMAN, Sturman Industries 238

7 EDDIE STURMAN, Sturman Industries 242

8 JESSICA LANGERMAN, Climate Exchange 245

9 JACK KEGEL, Minnesota Municipal 

10 Utilities Association 250

11 WILLIAM BLACK, Minnesota Municipal 

12 Utilities Association 254

13 KATHLEEN WELLS, Resident of Colorado 259

14 RICHARD KOETTING, International Brotherhood 

15 of Electrical Workers (IBEW) Local 667 263

16 LONNIE RUSSELL, Moms Clean Air Force 267

17 TIMEO ARCHULETA, IBEW Local 111 271

18 BRAD TOLLERSON, Otter Tail Power Company 274

19 GUY RUNCO, IBEW Local 667 280

20 SCOTT DENNING, Colorado State University 286

21 SETH PORTNER, Efficiency First 291

22 CHLOE FANDEL, Geologist 298

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
8

1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 AFTERNOON SESSION (continued)

4 STUART TRAVIS, Y-W Electric Co-op 302

5 MACON COWLES, Attorney, Boulder City

6 Council 308

7 JEFFREY DAVIS, Student 314

8 KATHERINE TOAN, Attorney 316

9 RACHEL CARILLO, Resident of Colorado 321

10 MARY GAIL SULLIVAN, Northwestern Energy 325

11 TYLER HAMMAN, Lignite Energy Council 329

12 JOHN HORNER, Professor, Colorado College 335

13 JOHN BACKLUND, Resident of Colorado 340

14 MADDIE LIPS, Resident of Colorado 345

15 MARY LOU CHURCH, Resident of Colorado 346

16 PETER WOLF, Resident of Colorado 349

17 CONNIE LUKE, Resident of Colorado 354

18 DON SCRIMGEOUR, Resident of Colorado 357

19 SHAKTI, Resident of Colorado 361

20 JEFF YEN, Resident of Colorado 362

21

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
9

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MORNING SESSION

3 MS. NOONAN: Good morning. My name is 

4 Jenny Noonan, and I am one of the chairs of 

5 today's public hearing. Thank you for coming 

6 today.

7 Joining me today on the panel are Colin 

8 Boswell and Laura Farris, and our court reporter 

9 is Alex. We are here today to listen to your 

10 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

11 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

12 of these rules of June 2, 2014.

13 Power plants are the largest source of 

14 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

15 roughly one-third of all the domestic greenhouse 

16 gas emissions. 

17 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

18 Power Plan for existing power plants. This 

19 proposal consists of two main parts: state20 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

21 power plants and guidelines to help states 

22 develop their plans for meeting the goals. This 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
10

1 proposal gives states flexibility in determining 

2 how to meet their goals. States will choose what 

3 goes into their plans, that show how they will 

4 achieve their needed reductions and meet their 

5 goals by 2030.

6 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

7 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

8 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

9 set emission limits for two groups of power 

10 plants: those that make a physical or 

11 operational change that increases the plant's 

12 maximum achievable hourly rate of emissions, and 

13 those that replace components to such an extent 

14 that the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

15 capital costs of an entirely new comparable 

16 facility. If you would like information or more 

17 details on these proposed rules, there are fact 

18 sheets near the registration desk.

19 Today's hearing is one of four public 

20 hearings across the country this week on the two 

21 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

22 in each of the hearings, and I'd like to thank 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
11

1 you for coming out today and joining us and 

2 sharing your comments.

3 We have a lot of people signed up to 

4 speak today, and we want to hear from all of you, 

5 so before we get started, I'd like to go through 

6 a few housekeeping items and ground rules that 

7 will help make today's hearing run smooth.

8 First, make sure that you are checked in 

9 at the registration desk, even if you are not 

10 planning on speaking today. If you signed up to 

11 speak online or by phone and haven't told us that 

12 you're here, please step out to the registration 

13 desk and let the EPA staff there know you've 

14 arrived.

15 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

16 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

17 or Room B. This is Room A. Are you in the right 

18 room? If not, this is a good time to switch. 

19 If you are not speaking this morning and 

20 the room is getting crowded -- I'm not sure that 

21 that will be a problem today -- we have two 

22 additional rooms set up where you can watch the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
12

1 hearing on video. Our staff at the registration 

2 desk will direct you to one of those rooms.

3 All right. Here's how the hearing will 

4 work today. I will call up speakers in pairs. 

5 When your name is called, please come to the 

6 table at the front of the room. When I call on 

7 you to speak, please state your name and spell it 

8 for the court reporter. Your comments will be 

9 transcribed and included in the record of the 

10 comments on the proposed rule.

11 Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 

12 comments. We have a light to help you know how 

13 much time you have left to speak. When light 

14 turns from green to yellow, that means you have 1 

15 minute remaining. When it turns red, that's a 

16 signal to wrap up your testimony. The light will 

17 flash red and beep when you have spoken for 5 

18 minutes, and it's time to stop. When you've 

19 finished speaking, please remain at the table 

20 until the person next to you has completed his or 

21 her testimony. 

22 We are here to listen to you today. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
13

1 However, a panel member may ask you a question to 

2 clarify your comments. After everyone has 

3 completed speaking, then I will call up the next 

4 pair of speakers, and so on.

5 If you have brought a written copy of 

6 your testimony, please give it to the staff at 

7 the registration desk before you leave today. 

8 Because of the large number of people who 

9 have been interested in this hearing, and to be 

10 fair to everyone, we're going to have to strictly 

11 enforce the 5-minute limit. If you have 

12 additional comments you would like to make, you 

13 can submit them in writing. Let me assure you 

14 that EPA gives as much consideration to comments 

15 we receive in writing as we do to the comments we 

16 receive at a public hearing like this one. So, 

17 if you have more to say, please submit it. Your 

18 comments will be reviewed.

19 There's still plenty of time to get 

20 written comments in and there are comment cards 

21 available at the registration desk. Comments 

22 must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
14

1 put any written comments submitted today in the 

2 official docket for the proposed rule. 

3 Instructions for submitting written comments in 

4 other ways are available at the materials table 

5 near the registration desk.

6 We're scheduled to go tonight until 8 

7 p.m. We'll take short breaks throughout the day, 

8 as needed. If you have any questions during the 

9 day, please see the staff at the registration 

10 desk and someone will help you.

11 Finally, I want to ask each of you to be 

12 respectful of everyone who speaks today. We have 

13 a wide variety of views in the audience, and we 

14 want to hear from all of you. So to do that, and 

15 to be fair to everyone, we ask that everyone 

16 listen quietly. Even applause can slow things 

17 down, and we want to hear from everyone who has 

18 signed up to speak.

19 Finally, please turn off your cell 

20 phones.

21 Thank you again for taking the time to 

22 share your comments on EPA's proposed rule, and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
15

1 I'd like to introduce the Regional Administrator 

2 for Region 8 in EPA, Shawn McGrath, for some 

3 welcoming comments.

4 MR. MCGRATH: Good morning everyone. Can 

5 you hear me? Okay, there we go. Good morning, 

6 and thanks, everybody, for coming in. I'm the 

7 Regional Administrator here for EPA Region 8, and 

8 I just want to welcome you and thank you for 

9 coming in. This is one of four public hearings 

10 we're having across the country, beginning 

11 yesterday and it goes through today. 

12 I want to tell you how important it is 

13 that we're getting the feedback through this 

14 public hearing. This is something that we did 

15 before we even proposed the rule. We had 

16 listening sessions around the country, including 

17 one here in Denver, I think. And as a result of 

18 the input that we got from those listening 

19 sessions, it really shaped what we ultimately 

20 proposed, and now we're at this new phase in our 

21 outreach effort. We have the proposal out there, 

22 but it's just that. It's a proposal, and we're 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
16

1 soliciting the feedback from you all, from the 

2 public, of what we got right, what you like, 

3 where there's opportunity for improvement, so 

4 that's really the conversation that we want to 

5 have with you all today and in the coming weeks, 

6 until October 16th, when we will close that 

7 public comment period. 

8 So, again, thanks to all of you for 

9 participating. We had a great conversation 

10 yesterday. People really engaged in a thoughtful 

11 way, and, I've got to say, a respectful way. I 

12 mean, we expect that there's going to be a large 

13 diversity of viewpoints and opinions on this, 

14 and, you know, that's something that we want to 

15 hear, and that's what makes our system of 

16 government such a good system of government. So 

17 I would ask all of you to be respectful of 

18 differences of opinion here. Just hear each 

19 other out and, as requested by Jenny, just be 

20 mindful that applause and other kinds of 

21 distractions like that are not really helpful to 

22 that process.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
17

1 But, again, thanks for being here. I'll 

2 step aside and go to the back and listen to your 

3 comments.

4 Thank you.

5 MS. NOONAN: Thank you, Shawn. All 

6 right. Let's get started. The first two folks 

7 up are Trinity Cofed and Mike Dalpiaz, and the 

8 next two on deck are Elbert Harmon and David 

9 Maggio, and if Mr. Harmon and Mr. Maggio want to 

10 sit in the seats behind the speakers, we can be 

11 ready for them. Thank you.

12 And the microphones -- whoever speaks 

13 first, you can push your microphone and it will 

14 be on, and don't get too close to it. And the 

15 second, when you're finished, push to turn it off 

16 and then the second person can turn theirs on. 

17 Okay. Thank you.

18 MR. COFED: Hello. My name is Trinity 

19 Cofed. I am a coal miner at Westmoreland 

20 Kemmerer coal mine, and a member of the United 

21 Mine Workers of America, Local Union 1307. I 

22 have worked at the mine for 6 years and am

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
18

1 currently an oiler at the mine. I am pleased to 

2 be able to offer this testimony to this committee 

3 on what is a matter of great importance to myself 

4 and my coworkers and our families.

5 The policy that the Environmental 

6 Protection Agency is about to impose on the 

7 mining industry will have a catastrophic impact 

8 not only on the mine where I work, but it will 

9 also have a ripple effect across the community 

10 where I live, and all without the slightest 

11 assurance that it will have any impact on climate 

12 change. 

13 For the miners and their families, the 

14 EPA's decision to push this ill-advised rule 

15 forward will destroy any chance we have of 

16 remaining self-sufficient, middle-class families. 

17 With the stroke of a pen and unrealistic hope of 

18 others in the world, we'll play follow the leader 

19 on the issue of climate change. We are 

20 destroying thousands of good-paying industrial 

21 jobs that are left in this country. 

22 This is about my job. I didn't choose to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
19

1 work in the coal industry because I had no other 

2 choice. I chose this profession because it 

3 affords me the ability to live a stable and 

4 secure life. It pays the mortgage, feeds and 

5 clothes my family, provides medical benefits, and 

6 helps to sustain the community where I live. I 

7 am proud of what I do for a living and the 

8 positive impact that it has on the lives of those 

9 close to me and those who benefit from the coal 

10 that I help to mine.

11 So now, just as we younger miners have 

12 become reliable, self-sustaining members of the 

13 community, you have decided to end our careers, 

14 and while pursuing this agenda, you have offered 

15 nothing in return. There is no other employment 

16 options, no way to pay the bills, no future for 

17 my family and community. This dismantling of the 

18 coal industry will be accomplished without any 

19 guarantee that the Clean Power Plan will work. 

20 There is nothing to even indicate it will address 

21 the problem it is designed to fix.

22 It may seem wise to the agency, and even 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
20

1 each of you, to roll the dice and hope that other 

2 nations will follow suit and apply the unilateral 

3 approach to the global problem, but we should all 

4 face the reality that such events do not happen. 

5 While it may be easy for you to gamble with my 

6 job and the future of my family, I cannot take 

7 that risk.

8 The EPA needs to rethink the problem on a 

9 global scale, while still looking at the people 

10 it will devastate at home. The policy is not the 

11 solution we need. The cure you are proposing is 

12 certainly worse than the disease.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. DALPIAZ: First off, I'd like to 

15 thank the EPA for the opportunity, just for these 

16 public hearings throughout the country, and my 

17 name is Mike Dalpiaz. I reside in Helper, Utah. 

18 I've got actually two occupations. First off, 

19 I'm a coal miner. I worked in the underground 

20 coal mines in the early '70s to the mid '70s, and 

21 I'm also a third-generation coal miner. My 

22 grandparents both immigrated here from Italy. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
21

1 They come to work here for the coals, and that 

2 they worked here. My father did. My uncles did. 

3 My brothers did. My brothers put themselves 

4 through college working in the coal mines. 

5 Again, so I have a family heritage and a 

6 tradition in the coal mines, and we have all done 

7 very, very well with the coal industry and the 

8 power industry.

9 Secondly, my other job is I'm an 

10 International Vice President of the United Mine 

11 Workers of America. My region is the western 

12 United States. I take care of the coal mines. 

13 We have other affiliates that we also represent, 

14 but predominantly the coal mines here in the 

15 western United States. 

16 I'm going to be as brief as I possibly 

17 can with the 5 minutes. First and foremost, what 

18 the EPA, I believe you're totally wrong for the 

19 climate problems in this country, for blaming 

20 coal. I believe in your opening comments you 

21 said one-third of the emissions problems was from 

22 coal. I think that's totally inaccurate. The 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
22

1 coal industry, the power industry has done leaps 

2 and bounds over the years to clean up the 

3 emissions in the coal-fired power plants, and 

4 they've done a reasonably good job. Is there 

5 more than can be done and should be done? Yes, 

6 there is. Not with the devastation, as your 

7 proposal is, actually, to the entire coal 

8 industry.

9 You know, a lot of conversion has already 

10 happened over the years, from coal to gas. 

11 Natural gas here has been cheap, as well, very, 

12 very cheap, because in this country we have 

13 allowed drilling beyond our wildest dreams to 

14 happen, which is producing a lot of natural gas, 

15 which lowers the price. Coal power plants 

16 converted to gas. Many did. Now that gas is 

17 going upward, coal power plants are converting 

18 back. It's all economics in the industry. 

19 Natural gas has its own filthy emissions, nobody 

20 seems to want to talk about.

21 Also, the coal plants are closing. Many 

22 of the old plants are closing. They probably 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
23

1 should. Many old, old, old power plants are 

2 dirty. They don't have emission controls on 

3 them. Many of them are closing. Some of them 

4 are because of solar and wind. Solar and wind 

5 has nothing, and the plants that are closing has 

6 not helped our environment one bit, the old power 

7 plants.

8 You know, so many is making this thing a 

9 political football, and I want to assure you that 

10 United Mine Workers have no interest whatsoever 

11 in making this some kind of a political football. 

12 You know, we have parties -- some parties want 

13 this agenda. There are like three major parties. 

14 The other party says, "No, we need absolutely no 

15 regulations. The businesses can do theirselves," 

16 which is ridiculous. 

17 Then we have another party that don't 

18 care about anything, like I say, and the 

19 political agenda that this thing has come into is 

20 ridiculous. We need to talk about the coal 

21 industry and the emissions or non-emissions, or 

22 the problems that we're having in this United 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
24

1 States.

2 We need common sense rules instead of 

3 rules that is gutting at one thing and one thing 

4 only, which is coal. You know, we have to 

5 compromise. We, our union know that we want a 

6 clean environment just like everybody else in 

7 this country. So we're not here saying that coal 

8 is perfect as it is. We would like to see and 

9 hear more discussion on clean coal technology. 

10 We keep hearing about that. Clear back in the 

11 '70s from President Jimmy Carter, that was talked 

12 about, clean coal technology. Nobody seems to 

13 want to bring that to the forefront. 

14 We can mine coal, we can clean coal, and 

15 we can burn coal, and there's absolutely nothing 

16 whatsoever wrong with that. Again, it brings 

17 absolutely great jobs. Coal is getting the 

18 blame, and it's just not fair. Your rule is 

19 absolutely not fair.

20 We've got a problem in this country with 

21 automobiles. You know, we have 300 to 400 

22 million automobiles driving around this country, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
25

1 putting emissions in the air. Jet airplanes. 

2 Most people today have these little four-wheelers 

3 that they go out in the wilderness with. Them 

4 are polluters worse than an automobile. Lawn 

5 mowers. We're just focusing on coal and we're 

6 leaving everything else aside. We think that is 

7 absolutely wrong. It's unfair.

8 You know, in the United States of 

9 America, we cannot fix this problem alone. 

10 That's what's happening. The United States wants 

11 to be the policeman, policeman for the entire 

12 world. We respect that position, but it can't 

13 happen. You have China, India building coal14 fired power plants every single day, who will not 

15 adhere to any regulations. You know, we have 

16 Kyoto Treaty, many of you know, the real treaty. 

17 That was a good start. But, again, we cannot 

18 police this thing by ourselves.

19 We have rules in -- we all just watched 

20 the soccer games. We have rules that govern the 

21 entire world, like referees. We have hockey 

22 games, Olympics, air traffic controller. We need 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
26

1 a rule like that for emissions.

2 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. 

3 Actually, I have a question for you. You had 

4 mentioned the emissions from coal plants being 

5 different than what was in the rule. We would be 

6 happy for any information you could have about 

7 the carbon emissions from power plants. We'd be 

8 happy -- please submit that for the record.

9 MR. DALPIAZ: Okay. We will submit that.

10 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both very much.

11 Our next two speakers are Albert Harmon 

12 and Dave Maggio.

13 MR. HARMON: I'm Albert Harmon. I thank 

14 you for the opportunity to address this panel. 

15 I'm a coal miner employed at Westmoreland 

16 Kemmerer Coal, in Kemmerer, Wyoming, and a member 

17 of the United Mine Workers of America. I'm a

18 member of Local 1307, its Local President, and 

19 have been for 25 years. Our Local is 106 years 

20 old. It's been in the coal industry for a long 

21 time. We've negotiated contracts that has 

22 brought up these issues of what we can do to make 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
27

1 our coal better, what we can do to make it 

2 cleaner. Between the union and Westmoreland 

3 Coal, we've worked together to do this. We're 

4 still working to make it cleaner. It can be 

5 cleaner -- I know this. The technology is out 

6 there.

7 I've worked at this mine for 38 years. 

8 I'm current a shop laborer. Over that time, I've 

9 performed numerous jobs at this mine, including I 

10 was a greaser; I've been a truck driver; a tipple 

11 laborer, where I worked with the coal, to make 

12 sure that it was cleaner; a mechanic; and later 

13 on in life, I've resorted to being a bathhouse 

14 attendant and now a shop laborer. This industry 

15 has been good to me. We can still make it good.

16 While the work can sometimes be difficult 

17 and dangerous, I'm fortunate to be near the end 

18 of my mining career, in pretty good health. As 

19 usually the case, I've had a few minor injuries 

20 during my years as a miner, but nothing that has 

21 limited my ability to work and provide for my 

22 family. The mining career I chose years ago 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
28

1 permitted me to purchase a home, raise a family, 

2 and be a stable, hard-working member of my 

3 community. After 38 years in this industry, it 

4 will soon be time for me to retire.

5 Like most people, I've been looking 

6 forward to that day for a long time. This is 

7 finally to be my time -- time to relax from the 

8 years of work and enjoy the precious moments with 

9 my family and friends, time to watch the 

10 grandchildren grow and become adults, and 

11 hopefully raise families, healthy families of 

12 their own, all while knowing the retirement 

13 benefits that I worked for, and see that they 

14 will be there and sustain me through the rest of 

15 my life.

16 But the actions you are taking with this 

17 rule change, the years of hard work and sacrifice 

18 I have made to secure a pension and health care 

19 benefits for myself and brothers and sisters that 

20 I've negotiated contracts for, because of this 

21 risky policy, that appears more likely to cause 

22 great harm than to produce much good. There is 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
29

1 no indication that the problem the EPA is 

2 claiming to address by this action will result in 

3 any positive impact for anyone. 

4 However, one thing is absolutely clear. 

5 This action will impact what I and other miners 

6 in the industry have worked for all our lives. 

7 It will destroy the pension and health care plans 

8 we have fought to establish and maintain since 

9 1946. To be clear, this unproven and ill10 conceived plan to eliminate coal-fired power 

11 generation will take away the retirement security 

12 I have earned during my mining career.

13 In closing, I do need to state, for the 

14 record, that while the EPA may feel an obligation 

15 to push this reckless plan forward, it does not 

16 have the right to destroy what I've worked for my 

17 entire life. Neither this agency nor any other 

18 will be there to pick up the pieces of thousands 

19 of shattered lives, when I find myself and my 

20 fellow miners and our families are confronted 

21 with the reality that this rule has eliminated --

22 our retirement security. This will be 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
30

1 devastating to our work force, to our areas.

2 I'm from southwestern Wyoming. These 

3 mining industries make jobs for a lot of 

4 families, pay taxes, build these federal 

5 buildings, build families, buy groceries, do all 

6 the things that are needed. I ask you, think 

7 hard about what this is, because it means a lot 

8 of people's lives, that have worked a lot of 

9 years. We deserve what we've worked for, not to 

10 be destroyed by others, and I thank you for this 

11 opportunity to speak.

12 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

13 MR. MAGGIO: Good morning. My name is 

14 Dave Maggio, last spelled M-a-g-g-i-o. I'm a 

15 retired coal miner, a third-generation coal 

16 miner. I'm also a Vietnam veteran. I served 2-

17 1/2 years in Vietnam. I live in East Carbon, 

18 Utah, and I am a member of UMWA Local 9958. It's 

19 a retired Local and I'm President of the Local. 

20 I've worked 28 years underground for both U.S. 

21 Steel and Kaiser Steel. My Local has 132 

22 members. Eighty-five percent of them are 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
31

1 veterans, and 100 percent of them are dependent 

2 on the pensions that they receive from the UMWA.

3 I'd like to thank you for the opportunity 

4 to offer testimony on how the plan you've put 

5 together will impact the coal field communities 

6 across this country. I serve as a city 

7 councilman in my town, and have for over 16 

8 years. I've also served mayor pro tem, and I am 

9 fully informed on how much my town depends on 

10 coal.

11 During this hearing, you have heard from 

12 people about the terrible consequences this 

13 proposed policy on miners on their families. The 

14 impact on all the individuals cannot be 

15 understated. However, the impact on their 

16 communities also needs to be talked about. The 

17 community where I live, the community where many 

18 of us live, the immediate job loss for miners, 

19 equipment manufacturers, truckers, railroad 

20 workers, utility workers, electrical workers, 

21 vendors, and other related workers are just the 

22 beginning of the decline. Many of these coal 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
32

1 field communities like mine rely on the income 

2 and the health care benefits that we've earned 

3 over working in the coal mines for generations.

4 The loss of wages to workers and pension 

5 benefits to retired families will send shock 

6 waves through thousands of local businesses and 

7 important public institutions. The elimination 

8 of health care benefits as a result of this plan 

9 will place a significant hardship on health care 

10 providers and people like myself who depend on 

11 it. It will also devastate doctors, clinics, 

12 pharmacies, and community hospitals. The 

13 severity of the damage to the people who provide 

14 these services, and, therefore, the broader 

15 community, may not seem obvious at first, but 

16 they will be an inevitable result.

17 It may not seem rational to some that a 

18 federal policy can have such a fundamental impact 

19 on a given town, but for those who cannot 

20 understand this, I would invite them to visit my 

21 community or any one of the communities and small 

22 coal-mining camps throughout the coal fields. We 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
33

1 are unique in many respects. We are fortunate to 

2 come from these small towns, where everyone knows 

3 everybody else. These are places where people 

4 actually do look out for their neighbors, and 

5 where generations of families live within walking 

6 distance of one another. They teach us the 

7 importance of family, friends, and community.

8 Four generations of my family live on the 

9 same street, Denver Avenue. My home of 43 years 

10 with my wife, Shelley, and our two children is 

11 under 100 yards from my boyhood home, where my 

12 other lives now, as a widow. I was born and 

13 raised on Denver Avenue in East Carbon, Utah, and 

14 have spent 65 years there, four generations on 

15 the same street. My mother, myself, my wife, my 

16 son, my grandson, and my granddaughter, and soon 

17 to be my great-granddaughter in August, are all 

18 reliant on the coal industry to sustain our way 

19 of life, an industry that by nature of the 

20 product it provides, exists in the hollows and 

21 hills of rural America. 

22 These communities thrive because of the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
34

1 men and women of our industry and the coal we 

2 produce. They are fundamentally tied together. 

3 It should be apparent when you destroy one you do 

4 irreparable harm to the other. You kill our 

5 industry and we become the endangered species. 

6 These communities are homes to countless men and 

7 women who fueled the Industrial Revolution, 

8 helped win two World Wars -- my father was also a 

9 World War veteran, and my older brother, a miner, 

10 died from Agent Orange in Vietnam. And we 

11 continue to energize a power-hungry nation, that 

12 now, without any assurance that what you are 

13 proposing will have any meaningful impact on the 

14 carbon emissions, you're willing to destroy our 

15 lives.

16 Certainly we, as a nation, are smarter 

17 than this. Surely we not only see the problem 

18 but still have the ingenuity and expertise to use 

19 this nation's most abundant energy resource 

20 efficiently, and in so doing, lessen our 

21 dependency on foreign energy owned by people who 

22 hate and despise us.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
35

1 I would also like to add that we are not 

2 anti-environmental, but cannot believe that there 

3 is no way in an age where you can talk to a 

4 person halfway around the world on a cell phone, 

5 or post your entire day on Facebook, that we are 

6 not technically evolved enough to use coal in a 

7 clean, safe manner.

8 I'd like to hit on one more subject here.

9 MS. NOONAN: Sir, I'm sorry. We're past 

10 time.

11 MR. MAGGIO: Okay. I appreciate your 

12 time.

13 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Up next we have 

14 John Friedrich and Rick Moral, and on deck we 

15 have Leonard Bailey and Stuart Sanderson. If 

16 you'd like to take the seats behind the speaker's 

17 table. Okay. Do you want to start? Thank you.

18 MR. MORAL: Good morning. My name is 

19 Rick Moral. I'm President of UMWA Local 1984 in 

20 Rangeley, Colorado. While I understand the EPA's 

21 motive in shutting down coal-burning power plants 

22 in favor of cleaner methods of energy output in 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
36

1 the U.S., with the hope that this will encourage 

2 other countries to do the same, I do not believe 

3 that this option will be successful long-term.

4 First of all, there is no hard evidence 

5 to back up the claim that countries that are 

6 still relying heavily or primarily on the use of 

7 coal-fired power plants will minimize, stop, or 

8 change their current methods simply because that 

9 is what's happening in the United States. These 

10 countries are going to continue to use the 

11 methods that work for them, regardless of the 

12 what the EPA mandates in this country. It's 

13 naïve to think that our influence on this 

14 particular matter will cause global change. If 

15 we wish to remain a world power and be a positive 

16 influence on other countries, then maybe we 

17 should consider being a leader in clean coal 

18 technology.

19 Coal is a readily available, economical, 

20 and reliable energy source for many countries. 

21 We may choose to turn our attention to more 

22 expensive and less efficient sources, but other 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
37

1 countries won't, in which the environmental 

2 impact of our actions will be negligible, at 

3 best.

4 Second and more important to myself and 

5 others in similar positions pertains to the loss 

6 of income that I and other will suffer if our 

7 mines are shut down. This will, of course, 

8 affect myself and my family. However, the 

9 consequences will undoubtedly reach much further 

10 than that. If I lose my job and have no income, 

11 I'll have no resources to make purchases at local 

12 businesses that rely on the regular patronage of 

13 customers like myself. 

14 Our membership is very diverse. On the 

15 crew that I work on, we have a grandmother and we 

16 also have a young man that's 19 years old, going 

17 to be a father soon. If that grandmother loses 

18 her job, what happens to her pension? And the 

19 money she's saved for retirement will be worth 

20 much less when her electricity costs her four 

21 times more, and everything else she buys move up 

22 proportionately. And what effect will this have 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
38

1 on this unborn child that this young man is going 

2 to have? Will it grow up in a home where the 

3 parents have good incomes and are able to raise a 

4 child in a small town, and send that child to 

5 school, or will they end up in a big city where 

6 maybe they can get minimum wage jobs?

7 In my town and other areas, coal mining 

8 is a family business. With so many individuals 

9 without jobs and so many entire families and 

10 community members unable to put money back into 

11 the market, the entire community will suffer. 

12 Ultimately, I believe that this decision 

13 will do much more harm than good, and I ask the 

14 EPA to consider this and think carefully about 

15 the disastrous results that could affect much 

16 more than just a few thousand jobs. This is a 

17 decision that will essentially change the 

18 economic dynamics of entire regions of our 

19 country in a massive and negative way. 

20 In a region where coal mining is 

21 prevalent and where coal mining jobs are numerous 

22 and widespread, closing down these mines will 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
39

1 have an extensive and very damaging effect that 

2 reaches much further than just coal miners and 

3 their families. Is it worth it to put this plan 

4 into action, based on a mere hope that maybe 

5 other countries will follow our example and ditch 

6 coal mining for windmills? There's no proof that 

7 they will change their system, and yet the EPA is 

8 willing to ax thousands of jobs and put the 

9 economy of our nation at risk to pursue this 

10 unlikely wish. 

11 For the sake of our jobs, our 

12 communities, and our economics, this decision 

13 must be reconsidered. Modern coal-burning plants 

14 are far cleaner than they were a generation ago. 

15 Let's continue that trend. When other countries 

16 see that such technology is working for us, and 

17 may be available to them, then maybe they will 

18 follow our lead. In the end, I don't see the 

19 agency's proposed policy as a real solution. We 

20 will lose what we have worked for all of our 

21 lives, and our communities will struggle in 

22 poverty. How can the EPA call this a success 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
40

1 story?

2 We need to find ways of putting more 

3 people back to work, in jobs that provide good 

4 pay and good benefits and long-term career 

5 opportunities. It's my personal opinion that 

6 this so-called war on coal has nothing to do with 

7 coal or the environment. It's economic war 

8 against America. Whose side is the EPA on?

9 MR. FRIEDRICH: Hi. I'm John Friedrich 

10 with Climate Parents. We're working with parents 

11 and grandparents across the country to take 

12 action on clean energy and climate for the sake 

13 of our kids and grandkids. The world facing our 

14 children and grandchildren, if we stay at the 

15 current carbon course, will be increasingly 

16 chaotic and marked by extreme weather events such 

17 as the severe droughts, wildfires, and flooding 

18 that have recently ravaged Colorado. The stakes 

19 are high for our kids, including my 8-year-old 

20 daughter, Rosie. 

21 The National Climate Assessment states 

22 that climate change threatens human health and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
41

1 well-being in many ways. Certain people are 

2 especially vulnerable, especially children. 

3 Early action provides the largest health 

4 benefits. As threats increase, our ability to 

5 adapt to future changes may be limited. If we 

6 care about our kids and their kids, we absolutely 

7 must do everything we can to reverse the tide on 

8 climate change, and since the biggest climate 

9 change drivers in the U.S. are power plants, EPA 

10 must adopt and enact strong limits on this carbon 

11 pollution, without delay.

12 The health and well-being of our children 

13 must be the top priority in setting new carbon 

14 pollution limits. Climate Parents strongly 

15 supports the Clean Power Plan as an important 

16 step in making a transition to clean, kid-safe, 

17 climate-safe energy. However, we want to see the 

18 proposed carbon pollution standards strengthened 

19 to adequately protect our kids from harm. Many 

20 states will be able to achieve even greater 

21 carbon reductions than called for in the Clean 

22 Power Plan because they are retiring dirty power 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
42

1 plants and moving to clean energy and energy2 efficiency must faster and at a greater scale 

3 than EPA has estimated. A strengthened standard 

4 with more ambitious carbon pollution reduction 

5 targets would take this progress into account as 

6 a base to be built upon.

7 There are some that say we can't afford 

8 to move to a clean energy future. The reality is 

9 we can't afford not to. There is too much at 

10 stake. The life support systems of the Earth are 

11 strained. There are too many kids suffering from 

12 asthma and other pollution fuel diseases to 

13 perpetuate the same outdated policies. The days 

14 of getting a free pass to dump unlimited amounts 

15 of carbon pollution into the air, at the expense 

16 of our communities, our kids, and our future, 

17 must come to an end. 

18 There is tremendous opportunity in making 

19 a transformation to a clean energy economy. A 

20 large number of jobs will be created to make 

21 every school, home, and business in this country 

22 energy efficient and powered by clean, home-grown 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
43

1 sources of energy. Today's children are going to 

2 help make that better, healthier world a reality 

3 if we just give them a chance, and the Clean 

4 Power Plan is a very important step in that 

5 direction. 

6 Climate Parents is circulating a petition 

7 in support of the Clean Power Plan, which has 

8 already been signed by thousands of supporters 

9 here in Colorado and across the country, and I'd 

10 like to read, for the record, a sampling of the 

11 comments that we've received so far.

12 Ann Mayberry in Steamboat Springs, 

13 Colorado, writes, "It is time to let go of older 

14 power-generating technology so we can innovate 

15 and embrace power technologies for the future." 

16 Mary Coat [ph] in Gastonia, North Carolina, says, 

17 "Please think of the future of the whole planet, 

18 not just what's cheap and popular now. I don't 

19 want my grandkids to foot the bill for my 

20 excesses."

21 Peggy Gray in Troy, Ohio, writes, "This 

22 is important to me because pollution affects my 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
44

1 health and that of my family and friends." John 

2 Clark of Granite Falls, North Carolina, says, "I 

3 would not mind a small increase in my electric 

4 bill to pay for fresh air for my grandchildren 

5 and great-grandchildren." Joyce Knarr [ph] of 

6 Tampa, Florida, says, "Money will not buy our 

7 grandchildren clean air to breathe. Please act 

8 now to adopt aggressive, tougher rules to cut 

9 carbon pollution from power plants."

10 Cedar Richard [ph] of Middletown, 

11 Pennsylvania, says, "As a civil engineering 

12 student, I believe it is extremely important to 

13 come up with cleaner and more sustainable designs 

14 within the energy sector. That comes by first 

15 creating new rules to regulate that sector." 

16 Edwin Hills [ph] of Athens, Pennsylvania, says, 

17 "We're nearing, at, or past the point of no 

18 return relative to carbon dioxide concentrations. 

19 Much can and must be done to slow and reverse the 

20 passing current policies of energy production 

21 now."

22 Therese Brownfield of Larkspur, Colorado, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
45

1 says, "It is scientifically feasible, 

2 economically reasonable, and morally responsible 

3 for the health of our nation and our planet that 

4 the EPA and we citizen enact the rule and others 

5 like it. Let's be smart for our future." G.P. 

6 Avery [ph] of Napa, California, says, "Not 

7 imposing stricter standards will only make the 

8 cost of power more expensive in the future, as we 

9 have to use more energy to compete with the 

10 effects of climate change. Stronger rules will 

11 lessen the impact."

12 Wendy McKendrick of Westminster, 

13 Colorado, says, "Other countries, like Germany, 

14 Denmark, and Indonesia, are leading the way to 

15 incorporating cleaner energy technologies. Let's 

16 not get left behind." And Nancy Noloboff [ph] of 

17 St. Augustine, Florida, says, "I have a grandson 

18 whose life is just beginning. We need a 

19 sustainable future. So thank you for taking 

20 action to enact a strengthened Clean Power Plan 

21 for the sake of our kids and grandkids." And I'd 

22 like to hand over a file with the petition 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
46

1 signatures attached.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. You can 

4 hand that in at the registration desk. It will 

5 be part of the docket. And for anyone else who 

6 as additional comments or weren't able to 

7 complete their comments orally, please put your 

8 written comments into the record and we'll make 

9 sure that they get put into the official record 

10 for this proposal. Thank you.

11 Okay. Mr. Bailey and Mr. Sanderson. And 

12 please remember to spell your names, your first 

13 and last names.

14 MR. BAILEY: Good morning.

15 MS. NOONAN: Press the button. Thank 

16 you.

17 MR. BAILEY: Thank you. Good morning. 

18 My name is Leonard Bailey, B-a-i-l-e-y, the last 

19 name. I live near Kayenta, Arizona. I'm a 

20 member of the United Mine Workers Local 1924, 

21 Kayenta Mine. I worked for Peabody Western Coal 

22 Company for 38 years.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
47

1 Thank you for the opportunity to be here 

2 today to voice my concern regarding the policy 

3 the EPA has issued regarding emissions from coal4 fired power plants. I have attempted to 

5 understand exactly what the agency is trying to 

6 do, but, to be honest, there certainly seems to 

7 be some conflicting messages. You roll out the 

8 Clean Power Plan by stating that the goal is to 

9 reduce carbon dioxide emissions to 30 percent 

10 below the 2005 level. 

11 There is no mention in any of the 

12 information that I have looked at that states 

13 emissions are currently 13 percent below these 

14 levels. This is an important fact, but it would 

15 appear to your effort to sell this plan, it is 

16 completely left out, but it would appear, to your 

17 effort, to sell this plan if you conveniently 

18 left out the data. Don't you think at least it's 

19 worth mentioning there has been expensive 

20 measures taken to deal with the problem?

21 The EPA takes great effort to explain how 

22 it is important for the United States to put this 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
48

1 rule into effect to other countries. You are 

2 referring to plan to build 1,200 coal-fired power 

3 plants to meet the energy needs. In fact, 

4 between China and India alone, there are four of 

5 these plants coming online every week. So you 

6 crush an industry here; it has grown everywhere 

7 else on the globe. You cannot be a leader if no 

8 one is following. 

9 It was not long ago that the EPA issued

10 the Maximum Achievable Control Technology rule, 

11 or MACT. At that time, it was stated that MACT 

12 would reduce pollutants, including heavy metal 

13 from the smokestack and the boiler emissions. 

14 This would reduce incidents of asthma, emphysema, 

15 and other chronic diseases. Now you make the 

16 same claim with the Clean Power Plan rule. 

17 Wasn't one rule enough to deal with those health 

18 issues?

19 What I don’t understand is why the EPA 

20 chooses to cherry-pick the facts instead of just 

21 telling the truth. It appears that when you look 

22 at the industry in this country, you have refused 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
49

1 to apply the technology that exists, while, at 

2 the same time, investing in research that will 

3 allow us to use our most critical natural 

4 resources. The EPA appears to have decided it's 

5 not just worth the effort. How will we keep this 

6 energy price low so homeowners and businesses can 

7 afford to keep the lights on when we dismantle 

8 the least expensive form of power generation we 

9 have? 

10 This rule will cost thousands of jobs. 

11 Jobs will be lost in the coal fields. In support 

12 industry and in the manufacturing centers across 

13 this country, this will go somewhere, like steel 

14 shoes, clothing, and a host of other industries. 

15 Surely we are a better nation, as this, in the 

16 United States.

17 Thank you.

18 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Sir, go ahead. 

19 Spell your name.

20 MR. SANDERSON: My name is Stuart 

21 Sanderson. I'm the President of the Colorado 

22 Mining Association. On behalf of the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
50

1 association, its more than 1,000 members, the 

2 more than 2,000 men and women who work at the 

3 mines in Colorado, and the 24,000 people 

4 throughout the state whose jobs depend upon coal 

5 mining and coal generation, I'm appearing here 

6 today to strongly oppose the EPA regulations.

7 In addition to threatening to write our 

8 most affordable and reliable electricity fuel out 

9 of the energy mix, these regulations will fall 

10 disproportionately hard on citizens and rate 

11 payers alike. 

12 In the coal industry in Colorado, the 

13 industry pays average wages and benefits in 

14 excess of $116,000 annually. Every single one of 

15 those jobs is at stake because of the EPA 

16 regulations. But equally as appalling, this 

17 regulation will produce nothing in the way of 

18 claimed benefits to the environment. According 

19 to any reasonable analysis, the rule's impact on 

20 the climate will be miniscule, about 1/20th of 1 

21 degree Fahrenheit change. I think only a 

22 Washington, D.C. bureaucracy could find these 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
51

1 benefits to be worthwhile. 

2 I will say what Colorado will get, and 

3 that is higher rates. Even President Obama has 

4 acknowledged that the rule will drive up utility 

5 bills and electric prices. Everyone will pay a 

6 price. A recent Harris Poll of nationwide 

7 consumers found that more than three-quarters of 

8 Americans worry that these EPA policies to 

9 eliminate coal-based electricity will produce 

10 higher electricity prices. 

11 The hardest hit will be states like 

12 Colorado, that rely heavily on clean coal for 

13 affordable electricity. Not only is the product 

14 that we produce in this state among the cleanest, 

15 high-quality products produced anywhere in the 

16 world, emissions from coal-fired power plants 

17 throughout the United States have declined by 

18 more than 90 percent during the last several 

19 decades, notwithstanding the fact that coal use 

20 for electricity generation has increased.

21 Colorado, due to its reliance on clean, 

22 high-quality coal, has enjoyed electricity rates 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
52

1 at or below the national average. That will 

2 change. Rates area already rising, the result of 

3 mandates for higher-cost energy sources, such as 

4 natural gas and renewable energy. These rate 

5 hikes will not be the last we see, as the EPA 

6 carbon regulation will eliminate even more coal7 based generation.

8 Now, there are some in Colorado who boast 

9 that Colorado is ahead of the curve, because has 

10 mandated these higher-cost sources of energy. I 

11 would submit that Colorado has just moved closer 

12 to the edge of the cliff. The EPA regulations 

13 are going to require a 35 percent reduction in 

14 these emissions, but there is no indication that 

15 the EPA will grant complete credit for the steps 

16 that Colorado has already taken to force the 

17 conversion to higher-cost energy sources, nor is 

18 there any guarantee that these new regulations or 

19 credits will be applied in any equitable manner.

20 These so-called forward-looking policies 

21 are also causing significant harm to rural 

22 economies and to businesses reliant on Colorado's 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
53

1 coal industry. Coal production is down 

2 substantially from 2004 levels. What does that 

3 mean for Colorado? Well, number one, it means 

4 lower federal royalty payments, because most of 

5 our coal is produced on federal lands, and that 

6 means less money for the public school system, 

7 less money for governments in Colorado.

8 More pain is yet to come. An analysis by 

9 NERA, an independent consulting firm of the 

10 regulatory model for the EPA rules, shows that 

11 electricity prices could increase by 49 percent, 

12 and could cause the loss of jobs, up to 9,000 

13 jobs in the multi-state region that includes 

14 Colorado. 

15 The effects are very real and they are 

16 felt at a human level. Look at Sharon Garcia in 

17 Pueblo, unable to pay her bills because of the 

18 conversion of power plants to higher-cost energy 

19 fuels. She can't use the oven in the summertime 

20 because it heats the house too much, and she has 

21 to light candles in the wintertime. She is not 

22 alone. Low- and fixed-income households and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
54

1 senior citizens are among those who are at the 

2 highest risk. 

3 These regulations will weaken our 

4 economy, our state, and our nation, while, 

5 ironically, the world is turning to coal. For 

6 all these reason, I strongly urge EPA to withdraw 

7 the rule and chart a course on climate regulation 

8 that does not threaten our most affordable and 

9 reliable source of electricity.

10 Thank you.

11 MS. NOONAN: Mr. Sanderson, if you could 

12 make sure that when you submit your written 

13 comments that the NERA study you referenced, we 

14 would be happy to have a look at that, as well.

15 MR. SANDERSON: Yes, I will. Thank you.

16 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. Next up 

17 we have Jennifer Hampton and Marty Doyle, and on 

18 deck, Alexander Osif and Colie Kraft, if you'd 

19 like to sit in the seats behind the speaker's 

20 table. Spell your name. Spell your name.

21 MS. HAMPTON: Hi. My name is Jennifer, 

22 last name is Hampton, H-a-m-p-t-o-n. Thank you, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
55

1 EPA, for hearing our testimony this week. I'm 

2 here simply as a concerned citizen, and obviously 

3 seeing how manmade pollution is greatly harming 

4 our land, water, air, wildlife, and human 

5 populations more all the time. I know that the 

6 problems are complex and that we are still 

7 learning. However, I feel strongly that it is 

8 our responsibility to act now in areas that are 

9 within our control. 

10 The EPA has it right. We can and must 

11 reduce carbon emissions from coal-fired power 

12 plants by 30 percent in 2030. I know that many 

13 states are already doing a lot in this direction, 

14 but this new rule will set a federal mandate, 

15 which will keep us all working together, and I 

16 think that is important.

17 I also feel, especially after listening 

18 to the testimony prior to mine today, that it's 

19 very important that we work together to find 

20 solutions and are very respectful to each other 

21 in the concerns on all sides of the issues. If 

22 we're careful in how we move forward, we can help 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
56

1 all concerned. Yesterday I heard a woman from an 

2 Indian reservation in Nevada, and I don't know 

3 the name of the reservation but I thought it was 

4 a good example of a success story, where a 

5 particular coal mine was causing a lot of 

6 problems to the community and they were able to, 

7 I believe, shut it down or reduce -- I don't know 

8 if it's completely shut down -- and replace that 

9 with a solar energy plant, and a lot of the 

10 people from the coal mines were getting jobs now 

11 in the solar industry, with good-paying jobs. 

12 I thought that was a good example of how 

13 we can work together to make positive changes. 

14 So, basically, everybody benefits from a healthy 

15 environment, and I believe that, overall, our 

16 economy will improve as our environment becomes 

17 healthier.

18 I saw you were looking for comments on 

19 different technical categories, which I am 

20 obviously not the person, but I hope that we 

21 would find highly qualified people to conduct 

22 energy audits on the power plants, and that 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
57

1 people on all sides could agree on how that could 

2 happen. As we move towards our 2030 goal, we 

3 will start seeing what else needs to be done, but 

4 I'm glad that right now we're moving in the right 

5 direction with the Clean Power Plan today.

6 Thank you.

7 MS. NOONAN: If you can stay, and turn 

8 your speaker off.

9 DR. DOYLE: Hello. My name is Dr. Marti 

10 Doyle. That's M-a-r-t-i D-o-y-l-e. I'm a 

11 professor at a faith-based health science college 

12 in Iowa. I have traveled here today to remind 

13 you of the importance of the EPA exercising their 

14 regulatory authority for the protection of public 

15 health.

16 Where the EPA's recognition of the impact 

17 of smokestack emissions on health is a good 

18 start, this recognition should represent the 

19 begging of an assessment of the entire fuel 

20 cycle, including drilling, mining, 

21 transportation, and waste management. I also ask 

22 that this assessment include the human cost of 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
58

1 mountaintop removal coal mining. 

2 Now, you may ask, why is a woman from 

3 Iowa concerned about mountaintop coal mining? 

4 Well, in March of this year, I traveled with a 

5 group of health care students to West Virginia, 

6 to participate in the Appalachia Community Health 

7 Research Project. The purpose of this project 

8 was to conduct health surveys at mountaintop 

9 removal and non-mountaintop removal communities. 

10 The data from these surveys is being used by Dr. 

11 Michael Hendryx to continue his research 

12 comparing the health of individuals in these two 

13 types of communities.

14 When I first explored the possibility of 

15 this trip, I approached the experience with an 

16 unbiased, academic perspective. I thought that 

17 it would be a great opportunity for students to 

18 both experience a different part of the country 

19 and have an opportunity to participate in 

20 research. I examined the two peer-reviewed 

21 journal articles, based on data from previous 

22 health surveys, as well as similar research. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
59

1 I learned that cancer and disease rates 

2 are twice as high in mountaintop removal mining 

3 communities compared to non-mountaintop mining 

4 communities. I also learned that researchers 

5 have found significantly higher prevalence of 

6 birth defects in regions where there are 

7 mountaintop removal sites. 

8 I was unprepared, however, for what my 

9 students and I would experience firsthand. The 

10 first thing that happened, as I fell in love with 

11 the land and the people of West Virginia, the 

12 individuals and families that opened their doors 

13 and homes to us were some of the most welcoming 

14 people I have ever met. They are people of 

15 strong faith. They are hard-working, tough, and 

16 resilient. It is clear that family is the most 

17 important part of their lives.

18 The second thing that happened was that I 

19 found myself becoming troubled as day after day I 

20 saw these people struggling with health 

21 challenges. After a few days of conducting 

22 surveys, I found myself unsure if I was actually 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
60

1 ready to see another individual struggling with 

2 serious lung disease. The individuals who are my 

3 age stood out to me the most. They should be 

4 enjoying their lives, their children and 

5 grandchildren, like I'm able to. They should be 

6 able to live their life fully. Instead they 

7 struggling just to breathe.

8 After conducting a survey with a young 

9 man, he told me he had endured multiple surgeries 

10 to correct a heart defect. I thought of a story 

11 that I'd heard from a student who had 

12 participated in last year's health survey. She 

13 and her fellow students had stopped at a house 

14 and asked the woman who answered the door if she 

15 had time to complete the survey. The woman 

16 answered that she was willing to participate but 

17 she was getting ready to put her child down for a 

18 nap. She told the students that she always 

19 walked her child to sleep, because he'd been born 

20 with a severe heart defect.

21 When the students returned a few days 

22 later to complete the survey, they talked to the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
61

1 grandmother of that child and found out that the 

2 day that they had talked to the mother, the child 

3 had died while taking his nap.

4 I ask you to remember that these 

5 individuals represent the human cost of our 

6 country's failure to properly invest in renewable 

7 energy sources. The suffering of the people of 

8 Appalachia must not be overlooked in any 

9 discussions of energy policy. These good people 

10 deserve better. As they weight the cost benefit 

11 of coal mining in their communities, they deserve 

12 to know the impact of coal mining on their and 

13 their families' health. They love and trust 

14 their country. We cannot let them down.

15 Thank you.

16 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Alexander Osif 

17 and Colie Kraft. Remember to spell your names.

18 MS. KRAFT: My name is Colie Kraft. C-o19 l-i-e K-r-a-f-t. I work full-time as a barista 

20 at a local coffee shop, part-time as a student of 

21 water chemistry at Metro, and I devote my free 

22 time to volunteering at the Sierra Club, and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
62

1 rooting for the Green Bay Packers. I was 

2 debating on exactly what I wanted to say to you 

3 today during my testimony. I could reiterate the 

4 facts and figures from trusted peers and 

5 advisors, but I'm no expert witness, and you 

6 heard those numbers yesterday.

7 I wish I could share with you the heart8 wrenching tale of the insipid degradation of our 

9 ecosystem has had on me personally, but others 

10 have shared far more compelling stories. 

11 Instead, I would like to share with you a little 

12 story about adaption and perseverance.

13 I grew up in a small, blue-collar town in 

14 our nation's heartland, West Bend, Wisconsin. I 

15 was an awkward little girl. My glasses were 

16 always too big, my teeth are crooked, and my 

17 ethnicity was always constantly questioned. 

18 "It's okay," my dad would always say, "It builds 

19 character."

20 I doubled down on my awkwardness by 

21 seeking solace in comic book heroes. Summers 

22 were spend in my mandatory uniform -- a mask, a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
63

1 cape, and a ballerina tutu. I would save the 

2 denizens of the Kettle Moraine Forest from the 

3 evildoers and ne'er-do-wellers. I can't be sure, 

4 but I think the squirrels appreciated my efforts. 

5 My father would just smile and encourage my 

6 behavior by adopting a superhero identity of his 

7 own, sans tutu, of course. 

8 In the summer of 1995, my life changed 

9 irrevocably. My mother succumbed to her life10 long battle of depression and committed suicide. 

11 I could not begin to put into words the 

12 tremendous sense of anger and loss I felt as a 

13 12-year-old girl, nor the sense of profound 

14 disappoint I experience today as a 30-year-old 

15 woman, nor could I completely identify with my 

16 father's bereavement. I lost my mother, but he 

17 lost his mate, his partner in crime.

18 Still, he redirected and redoubled his 

19 efforts. We put away our superhero identities to 

20 become softball players, band geeks, and bad 

21 scientists. Our days were filled with constant 

22 activities and new directions, anything to find a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
64

1 new center of balance in our fracture home. As 

2 summer came to a close and the nights became 

3 cooler, I remember watching the forest outside my 

4 home slowly turn to red, and I suddenly felt very 

5 still and very lonely. "I don't want summer to 

6 end," I said. I was scared to start middle 

7 school without my mother. "It's okay," my dad 

8 said. "Seasons change. Everything changes. It 

9 builds character."

10 We stand now at a very unique precipice. 

11 Our global seasons are changing rapidly and 

12 dramatically, both physically and metaphorically. 

13 We can see the rising tide and the writing on the 

14 wall. We can choose to ignore it and continue 

15 on, as business as usual, out of some stagnant 

16 fear of perceived job loss or quality of life, 

17 but that type of leaner thinking only results in 

18 fatal tragedy, and it has a resounding collateral 

19 impact on future generations. This is perhaps 

20 the most useful lesson my mother's suicide has 

21 taught me.

22 We can whine and bitch and moan and stamp 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
65

1 our feet at the perceived injustice of it all. 

2 We can point to China and India and cry foul, 

3 like a lonely, grieving little 12-year-old girl, 

4 but that's just stinking thinking. Or we can 

5 accept that everything changes. Nothing is 

6 sacred or safe. We can find new avenues to 

7 direct our energy and reap the benefits and 

8 rewards of hard work and perseverance. 

9 In the end, it's easy to see the world as 

10 black and white, see coal and fossil fuels as 

11 evildoers. We can point the finger at these 

12 ne'er-do-wellers and gnash our teeth at them, but 

13 each and every one of us reaps the benefit of 

14 their plunder.

15 I'm asking everyone in this room to 

16 assess their own personal use and to take 

17 accountability of their actions. Changing the 

18 paradigm of a coal-based energy infrastructure 

19 won't be easy, but it starts at home. There may 

20 be some growing pains, some moments of 

21 uncomfortability, but that builds character. As 

22 Americans, I believe we can rise to the occasion. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
66

1 We can adapt to new greener energies and 

2 technologies, and reestablish ourselves as 

3 confident world leaders, independent of fossil 

4 fuel.

5 And as a brief note, as I left for 

6 college, my dad packed away my little black tutu, 

7 just in case I ever needed to be a superhero. 

8 "Oh, my God, there's no way I'm wearing that 

9 around campus." "Why not?" my dad asked, 

10 cheekily. "It builds character."

11 So let's all put on our big girl tutus 

12 and be our own superheroes.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. OSIF: Good morning. My name is 

15 Alexander Osif. A-l-e-x-a-n-d-e-r O-s-i-f. I 

16 live in a town called Kayenta, Arizona. I am a 

17 member of the United Mine Workers Local 1924, and 

18 work for Peabody Western Coal Company, located on 

19 the Navajo and Hopi Reservation. My bloodline 

20 consists of Navajo, Hopi, and Pima. 

21 Thank you for allowing me to take time 

22 and to speak at this hearing on the EPA's 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
67

1 proposed rule. While I find this rule disturbing 

2 in many ways, I will keep my comments brief and 

3 focused on some of the statements regarding what 

4 the policy will do for America. 

5 In a press release on June 2, 2014, the 

6 agency made many predictions about what benefits 

7 will be reaped as a result of this rule. The EPA 

8 noted that the rule will fight climate change 

9 while supplying America with reliable and 

10 efficient power. I think the idea that this rule 

11 will do anything to reduce global emissions, it 

12 has been clearly refuted by many of the speakers 

13 before me. 

14 It is the second half of that statement 

15 that I also find questionable. I would argue 

16 that, unlike most other nations around the globe, 

17 we have already accomplished that goal. 

18 Moreover, we have done it while, at the same 

19 time, keeping energy costs low enough to allow 

20 affordability for every body. Sometimes it is 

21 what you don't say that can be as important as 

22 what you want people to believe. It is about 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
68

1 efficiency, reliability, but it is also about 

2 affordability. You can produce all types of 

3 products and offer unlimited services, but if 

4 people cannot afford them, there is no use in 

5 producing them. It's strange, but even Henry 

6 Ford, a man known for being overly generous, 

7 understood that, and he couldn't sell a car to a 

8 person who didn't make enough money to buy one.

9 Unfortunately, you are looking at the 

10 same situation from the opposite point of view. 

11 You intend to produce a product and assume that 

12 regardless of cost burden placed on the working 

13 families they will have no choice but to buy it. 

14 The same problem will exist for businesses in 

15 this country. They will be required to purchase 

16 power from far more expensive generating 

17 resources. But unlike the workers who lose their 

18 jobs, businesses will do what they have done for 

19 decades when faced with rising costs. They will 

20 close shop and move to another country, where 

21 costs are lower. The costs associated with the 

22 rule will help escalate unemployment in the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
69

1 remaining industrial base of our nation.

2 As you consider the consequences of the 

3 rule, it should become clear that your prediction 

4 that it will spur innovation and great jobs may 

5 eventually come true, just not in the United 

6 States. We will once again create the perfect 

7 conditions to assist our competitors around the 

8 globe at the expense of our own citizens.

9 And as a race to the bottom, in the 

10 nation, the policy you impose will be seen for 

11 what it is -- expensive and futile.

12 Thank you for the opportunity.

13 MS. NOONAN: I'd like to ask if Rosalyn 

14 Bower [ph] could please go to the registration 

15 table in the other room, Rosalyn Bower, if you're 

16 in this room. Okay. Next up we have Don Shelley 

17 and Diane Schrack, and on deck Steve Dschaak and 

18 Phil Russell, if you'd like to sit in the two 

19 seats behind the speaker's table. Thank you.

20 Spell your name. Push the button and 

21 spell your name.

22 MS. SCHRACK: My name is Diane Schrack. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
70

1 D-i-a-n-e S-c-h-r-a-c-k. I live in Highlands 

2 Ranch, Colorado, and I'm concerned that the EPA's 

3 proposal under President Obama's Clean Power Plan 

4 is not strong enough to address the climate 

5 crisis that we're facing today and in the future. 

6 Carl Sagan said, "Anything else you're 

7 interested in is not going to happen if you 

8 cannot breathe the air and drink the water. You 

9 are, by accident of fate, and alive in an 

10 absolutely critical moment in the history of our 

11 planet."

12 Carl Sagan said that a few decades ago. 

13 The climate changes we are experiencing right now 

14 didn't just happen. We've been spewing 

15 greenhouse gases and carbon dioxide into the 

16 atmosphere since the Industrial Revolution began. 

17 We are facing the consequences of that today, and 

18 that is a fact.

19 The Environmental Protection Agency is an 

20 extremely important position right now to make 

21 real, substantial change to U.S. environmental 

22 policy. Climate change is the single most 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
71

1 important issue facing us today, an issue with 

2 social, economic, political, and environmental 

3 parameters, here and worldwide. Your current 

4 proposal is nice, and it gives the impression of 

5 effective change, but it needs to be based on 

6 relevant evidence and science. We don't have 

7 time to play politics and deal with influence8 peddling from partisan polititioning and money 

9 interests. 

10 The solution needs to fit the scale of 

11 the problem. Your proposal to cut carbon 

12 pollution is based on 2005 levels. 2005 was 

13 close to the peak year of U.S. carbon pollution, 

14 so your baseline is already skewed toward the 

15 highest level of carbon. Your EPA Fact Sheet 

16 states that the proposal will maintain an 

17 affordable, reliable energy system, while cutting 

18 pollution and protecting our health now and for 

19 future generations, but in reality this is just 

20 not true. A healthy, sustainable future cannot 

21 afford the amount of carbon your plan allows for. 

22 It's not possible. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
72

1 In fact, your information sheet says 

2 climate and weather disasters in 2012 cost the 

3 American economy more than $100 billion. Carbon 

4 extraction processes and its pollution bring us 

5 drought, wildfires, floods, contaminated air and 

6 water, debilitating human health issues, ocean 

7 acidification, melting glaciers, and earthquakes, 

8 all very costly consequences that never seem to 

9 be recognized in macro scale economic analyses. 

10 The carbon pollution that you are 

11 addressing is already creating sea level rise 

12 that impacts human and animal migration, and food 

13 and water shortages that promote violent 

14 conflicts among people around the world who are 

15 just trying to survive.

16 When you've talking about environmental 

17 protection, you're talking about responsibility 

18 to others. We can't ignore that reality any 

19 longer. There is a time and place for 

20 regulation. It is long past that time. And 

21 please bear in mind, your regulations will set 

22 the floor and establish the very least companies 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
73

1 can do to keep in regulatory compliance. Carbon 

2 should be taxed for the social and environmental 

3 harm it causes.

4 The EPA needs to bring about a massive 

5 shift beyond fossil fuels. You should not be 

6 promoting nuclear power or natural gas 

7 production. Both are harmful, and we can't 

8 afford the doing-less-of-a-harmful-thing anymore. 

9 Our future lies in conservation, energy 

10 efficiency, and proven carbon-free renewable 

11 energy. We've got the technology, we've got the 

12 workers. We need the EPA to stand up and help 

13 make it possible for us to get there.

14 Your proposal is not enough. The EPA 

15 needs to go back to the drawing board and quickly 

16 come up with a plan that adequately addresses the 

17 actual impact of U.S. carbon emissions on our 

18 planet. And then, please get back to us as you 

19 are so graciously doing today, so we can weigh in 

20 on the policy that affects the sustainability of 

21 our very lives, not just here in Colorado but 

22 around the world, as well.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
74

1 Thank you.

2 MR. SHELLEY: Good morning. My name is 

3 Don Louis Shelley. D-o-n S-h-e-l-l-e-y. I live 

4 in Price, Utah, and I am a member of UMWA Local 

5 1769. I began working in the coal industry in 

6 1979, for American Coal Company, at the Deer 

7 Creek Mine in Huntington, Utah. I also worked 

8 for Emery Mining, Utah Power and Light Mining, 

9 Scottish Power, and PacifiCorp's Energy West 

10 Mining. I worked a total of 31 years in the Deer 

11 Creek Mine, which supplies coal to the major 

12 power plants in Utah.

13 Today I'd like to discuss an issue that 

14 seems to be missing from this conversation. It 

15 very well could be that while everyone at the EPA 

16 was working so hard to eliminate coal from the 

17 nation's energy mix, you never even considered 

18 some of the harm that you are doing. I am 

19 referring to the disruption of the United Mine 

20 Workers of America's Health and Retirement Funds. 

21 The Funds currently pay pensions and health care 

22 for nearly 100,000 retired coal miners, their 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
75

1 families, and widows. 

2 There are also tens of thousands of 

3 working miners who are counting on those earned 

4 benefits when their working lives in the mines 

5 are done. The funds were created in 1946 by an 

6 agreement signed in the White House by President 

7 Harry Truman, looking on. The continuation of 

8 the funds depends, as it has from its inception, 

9 on continuing contributions from coal operators 

10 under contract with the UMWA. 

11 The amount of contributions each coal 

12 company depends on, the number of miners they 

13 employ, and the hours each of those miners work. 

14 The Funds distribute over $500 million each year 

15 in pensions, and another $500 million in health 

16 care benefits. That's over $1 billion a year that 

17 we put into the economy.

18 The union has understood for years that a 

19 healthy coal industry is key to adequately 

20 funding the benefits of our retirees and widows. 

21 For the past 68 years, we have negotiated 

22 contracts with the coal operators that protect 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
76

1 the funds and allow the industry to thrive. We 

2 all understand that it is essential to have 

3 someone sitting on the other side of the table to 

4 negotiate with. Accomplishing this, despite the 

5 ups and downs of the industry, and the ever6 changing energy needs of the nation has never 

7 been easy, but we have been successful.

8 Now, we, as a union, and each of our 

9 members and widows who rely on those benefits we 

10 have earned to sustain us through their 

11 retirement years, are facing a crisis that your 

12 agency is creating. When you implement this 

13 policy, which the EPA acknowledges will close 

14 down a significant portion of the coal industry 

15 in this country, you eliminate the companies we 

16 rely upon to continue to fund these benefits. 

17 Without those employers, there are no miners, and 

18 there is no one to pay into the funds. It will 

19 only be a matter of time until the money runs out 

20 and pensions and health care of all those who 

21 worked so hard to secure them, are left without 

22 any retirement security.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
77

1 I want each of you to think about that. 

2 I want you to understand that what you are doing 

3 is not just implementing some happy plan that 

4 everyone should be dancing in the streets about. 

5 In fact, you are placing the lives of all the 

6 people I am talking about in jeopardy. I hope 

7 you take this into consideration, and I want to 

8 thank you for your time today. 

9 Thank you.

10 MR. DSCHAAK: Good morning. My name is 

11 Steven Dschaak. S-t-e-v-e-n D-s-c-h-a-a-k. I 

12 live in Beulah, North Dakota. I am with UMWA 

13 Local Union 1101. I was vice president for 9 

14 years and I'm still a committee member. I work 

15 for Dakota Westmoreland Coal Company, Beulah, 

16 North Dakota.

17 When I heard the EPA was holding hearings 

18 about the Clean Power Plan, I immediately began 

19 trying to contact the agency in hoping to be able 

20 to speak against this rule. I feel the rule was 

21 written as misguided. It punishes workers in the 

22 United States and does little, if anything, for 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
78

1 the environment. The rule proposes to reduce 

2 carbon emissions globally by dismantling American 

3 coal industry. I have to question why a U.S. 

4 agency like the EPA is ignoring evidence that 

5 China and India intend on ramping up their coal 

6 usage, regardless of what the United States does. 

7 They increase coal mining, importing, burning 

8 coal, with few pollution controls, at a rate 

9 already far surpassing our country.

10 Maybe I should not be surprised. After 

11 all, the EPA has not hidden its intention to shut 

12 down the coal industry in this country, seeing 

13 the industry is obsolete, despite the thousands 

14 of Americans it employs. And now you expect us 

15 to go away quietly. I assure that will not 

16 happen. I have to ask, does the EPA see all 

17 miners, regardless of the facts to the contrary, 

18 as dirty polluters who must be eliminated? Many 

19 of your strong supporters of the environmental 

20 movement do. Do you actually believe we spend 

21 our lives with our hands in the sand and not see 

22 what's happening around us?

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
79

1 In the end, most people will not wonder 

2 or care what happens to my wife, my family, or 

3 the others if I no longer have a job. No one is 

4 thinking about the burden my family or coworkers

5 will face if we no longer have a steady paycheck 

6 or if there is no contributions to the United 

7 Mine Workers Health and Retirement Funds. No one 

8 will care until the money runs out. The 

9 government, which is killing our jobs, must pay 

10 the price in unemployment benefits, welfare, and 

11 public assistance. 

12 I am proud to have been able to take care 

13 of my family because of the work that I do. I'm 

14 proud to be a miner. I have never asked for a 

15 handout from the people around me or from the 

16 government. I want to pay my own way. I want to 

17 work. I feel pride in my work. I want to be 

18 able to continue my profession and produce coal 

19 to power this nation.

20 I have worked in the mines for 36 years. 

21 I don't want my job to be given to someone in 

22 another country who will never, ever hear about 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
80

1 this type of rule. This rule will not help the 

2 environment, but it will throw away my future and 

3 cause hardship on many others.

4 Thank you for your time.

5 MR. RUSSELL: Good morning. My name is 

6 Phil Russell. It's spelled P-h-i-l R-u-s-s-e-l7 l. I come from a town on the Navajo Nation 

8 called Chinle, Arizona. I have worked for 

9 Peabody Coal Company since 1978. I'm a member of 

10 Local 1620 and a retiree. I worked at the Black 

11 Mesa Mine when it was open. Today that mine no 

12 longer exists.

13 This morning, when I came here, I looked 

14 around the room and I can see that a lot of you 

15 are well dressed. You've got nice clothes on, 

16 nice suits. I bet you, in order to make what 

17 you're wearing came from power that was derived 

18 from coal. The medicine that we take today, 

19 also. So everything in this room. You look at 

20 the lights that we're fortunate to have, was from 

21 coal. The rug that we walk on was from coal. I 

22 think, I believe the EPA has to think about what 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
81

1 we enjoy today cannot go away in a policy that 

2 has been created. We have to sit down and talk 

3 more in-depth about how we can regulate what 

4 we're here for today. We can't go to the extreme 

5 and cut it all with the stroke of a pen.

6 The land that I come from, we've already 

7 endured third-world conditions. We still live in 

8 those condition. I'd like to invite you all down 

9 there to see how we live, as Navajo Indians.

10 I served under President Joe Shirley as 

11 an assistant staff assistant, in the early part 

12 of 2002. This was a concern at that time. The 

13 Navajo Nation, at that time, through the planning 

14 of our leaders, we are going to get into the coal 

15 industry. We are going to produce coal, as a 

16 Navajo Nation.

17 Now, it's very important that you do come 

18 down and talk with us, because if these rules are 

19 instituted, the revenues that the nation is 

20 getting will be depleted. You have to think it 

21 about it very careful, what you do here today. 

22 You've got Native Americans that rely upon coal.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
82

1 Years ago, you probably all remember, 

2 when we were in World War II, the U.S.A. asked 

3 us, "Help us." We did. We fought. Our 

4 forefathers fought, the Navajo Code Talkers. 

5 That's why you're here today. Remember that. 

6 Excuse me.

7 I am not here to argue with anyone about 

8 science that the EPA has used to determine that 

9 weather patterns are changing or if the 

10 temperature of the Earth is fluctuating. It's 

11 not my intent to sit here and argue that changes 

12 are not occurring. I am not, as many who may 

13 disagree with this regulatory policy, are labeled 

14 by his proponents "a denier of science."

15 When it comes to clean water, clean air, 

16 and a safe environment for my children and 

17 grandchildren to grow up, my hope is no different 

18 than anyone else. They have a right to expect 

19 that the place they decide to call home, no 

20 matter where it is, allows them the opportunity 

21 that other generations have enjoyed. We all have 

22 an obligation to ensure that we do all we can to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
83

1 make sure they have every chance at a healthy and 

2 prosperous life. 

3 I do not doubt, for one minute, that is a 

4 sincere goal of everyone testifying here today. 

5 This issue does pose extremely difficult 

6 problems. Like many of the people I know and 

7 work with, I have listened for years to the 

8 raging debate about climate change and the need 

9 to address this issue. The question in my mind 

10 is not whether we need to find a solution to this 

11 problem, because I think we can all agree that we 

12 do. Rather, the question is, will the path we 

13 take to correct the problem really achieve the 

14 goals we are hoping it will?

15 I can't see that what you are doing with 

16 this policy will accomplish that goal. The mine 

17 industry, where I have made a living for many 

18 years, will be put out of business. The job 

19 losses at the mine will affect everyone in the 

20 community and everyone on the Navajo Nation and 

21 in the metropolitan areas of Phoenix, Arizona, 

22 and Tucson, Arizona. All those communities will 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
84

1 be affected, and every Native American community 

2 south of the reservation will be affected.

3 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. If you 

4 have additional comments, please submit them for 

5 the record.

6 MR. RUSSELL: Okay. Thank you.

7 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. Up 

8 next we have Robert Clarke and Steven Feagins, 

9 and on deck Jeremy Epstein and Anne Ekelad.

10 MR. CLARKE: Good morning. My name is 

11 Robert Clarke, C-l-a-r-k-e. I'm a retired miner 

12 and a member of United Mine Workers Local 1307, 

13 Kemmerer, Wyoming. I went to work in the mines 

14 my second day after being home from Vietnam and 

15 I've worked there for 40 years. I have been 

16 retired for 3 years. 

17 I currently receive a pension from the 

18 Westmoreland Coal Company and my health care 

19 benefits come from Chevron Mining. These are 

20 benefits that I have earned through the years of 

21 hard work in the coal industry. I think it's 

22 important for everyone here to understand that 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
85

1 the pension and health care benefits I receive 

2 are the results of years of sacrifice. They are 

3 the promise in the collective bargaining 

4 agreement between the United Mine Workers and the 

5 coal operators, to provide economic security and 

6 health benefits to older miners when we retire 

7 from the industry. 

8 Whether you know it or not, the policy 

9 that the EPA is proposing here, when fully 

10 implemented, will put these hard-earned benefits 

11 at serious risk. Looking at this from my point 

12 of view, your hope that this policy will 

13 eliminate a global problem is uncertain, at best. 

14 However, the rush to apply this risky policy, 

15 which focuses mostly and exclusively on the coal 

16 industry, will make it uncertain that I will 

17 receive the pension and health care benefits that 

18 was promised, and that I risked my life and 

19 health for every day I worked.

20 I believe the situation that us retired 

21 coal miners and their families face because of 

22 this policy is outrageous. The problem should be 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
86

1 easy for everyone here to understand. It's about 

2 keeping what you have worked a lifetime to 

3 achieve. I am sure that each of you look forward 

4 to the day when you can retire and continue to 

5 live in security because of the retirement 

6 promises that were made to you in return for your 

7 hard work.

8 I, for one, sincerely hope that those 

9 days arrive for you, when you choose to leave 

10 your profession, and you may retire with dignity. 

11 This is all that I ask for. It is all that my 

12 brothers and sisters, who have given the best 

13 years of their lives and their profession are 

14 looking to receive. We have earned the right to 

15 expect security in our retirement. We have 

16 secured those rights through hard work, 

17 sacrifice, and years of collective bargaining 

18 agreement. But if this agency chooses to adopt 

19 this questionable policy and destroy a large 

20 portion of the coal industry, it will also 

21 destroy a lot of futures. 

22 In closing, I would like to thank you for 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
87

1 your time and ask you that you look very closely 

2 at the consequences of your actions here.

3 Thank you.

4 MR. FEAGINS: Good morning, and thank you 

5 for the opportunity to speak. My name is Steven 

6 Feagins, S-t-e-v-e-n F-e-a-g-i-n-s. I'm a mobile 

7 equipment operator at Ambre Energy's Decker coal 

8 mine in Decker, Montana. I have 30 years of 

9 seniority. I reside in Sheridan, Wyoming, where 

10 I am President of UMW Local 1972. I represent 

11 both union and non-union members at the Decker 

12 coal mine, which employs over 100 people. I am 

13 the former President of the UMWA District 15, 

14 which was headquartered here in Wheat Ridge, 

15 Colorado.

16 In the early 1900s [sic], I was appointed 

17 by the then-Governor Roy Romer to a commission to 

18 study the effects of the Hayden Power Station in 

19 Hayden, Colorado, on a neighboring wilderness 

20 area. In that commission, it was found that 

21 there was greater damage to the flora and fauna 

22 of the neighboring wilderness area when the coalOLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
88

1 fired power plant was shut down for its annual 

2 repair. The scientists for the opposition could 

3 only explain that as a phenomena.

4 After nearly 12 years, I am again 

5 defending coal-fired power plants. I presume 

6 that you are aware of the fact that the United 

7 States has the single largest energy source in 

8 the world, with more recoverable coal than there 

9 is oil in Saudi Arabia. The coal reserves that I 

10 mine is the Powder River Basin, which has in 

11 excess of 300 years of recoverable coal.

12 In this country, along with our coal 

13 reserves, and the recent Bakken Oilfield 

14 discovery in North Dakota, the United States has 

15 the ability not only to achieve energy 

16 independence but it can become a major energy 

17 exporter.

18 Instead of applying the innovation and 

19 technology that this country has always 

20 championed, and utilizing coal, the EPA has 

21 decided to drastically reduce coal production. 

22 It really does make me wonder if the agency and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
89

1 some others in this country have decided that we 

2 are no longer smart enough or capable enough to 

3 accomplish such goals. A part of me once 

4 believed that can't be true; this rule appears to 

5 signal you believe it.

6 How is it possible that we can be so 

7 short-sighted? We have the energy resource to 

8 continue to provide cheap and efficient power, 

9 yet we throw it away for a hope and a prayer. We 

10 hope that other countries will follow our lead 

11 and eliminate their own efforts to achieve energy 

12 independence. We pray that some day we will be 

13 able to stop investing huge sums of taxpayer 

14 dollars to subsidize wind and solar energy.

15 This policy will simply not be 

16 sustainable when fully implemented. No one can 

17 tell what the actual impact will be on a power 

18 grid that cannot react immediately to increased 

19 power needs on a large scale. It is certain wind 

20 and solar cannot meet any of these instances. 

21 What we will do when these events present 

22 themselves -- what will we do when these events 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
90

1 present themselves? Who will decide which home, 

2 which business, or which hospital is permitted to 

3 operate while others are caught without 

4 electricity? If we continue to travel down this 

5 road towards energy deficiency, someone had 

6 better write another rule to determine power 

7 rationing. 

8 I'd like to read a quote from a 

9 periodical put out by the Peabody Coal Company, 

10 called "Peabody Coal and Energy News," in which 

11 they have quoted an article called "EPA Climate 

12 Rules Plant Seeds of an Energy Crisis." It's 

13 from The Daily Caller. It was dated June 25, 

14 2014.

15 "The Environmental Protection Agency 

16 regulations, aimed at retiring coal-fired power 

17 plants, are sowing the seeds of a U.S. energy 

18 crisis, according to a new report. Energy 

19 emission rules are setting the stage for higher 

20 energy prices and potential brownouts and 

21 blackouts across much of the country. Last 

22 winter, families in New England and in parts of 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
91

1 the Midwest saw their energy prices skyrocket 

2 because the region's natural gas pipeline 

3 infrastructure was not able to get enough fuel to 

4 where it needed to go. Cold weather also caused 

5 problems with pipelines and gas plants."

6 MS. NOONAN: Finish up, then.

7 MR. FEAGINS: "As electricity rates 

8 increase to an estimated 40 percent and demand 

9 exceeds supply, there will be no reserves capable 

10 to generate the power needed." As also stated 

11 here, a large part of the population of the 

12 United States already has to make a choice 

13 between food or medicine, and now, with this 

14 regulation, you are adding electricity to that 

15 equation.

16 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much, and if 

17 you can submit your full comments for the record, 

18 we would appreciate that.

19 MR. FEAGINS: Thank you.

20 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Jeremy Epstein 

21 and Anne Ekelad?

22 MS. EKELAD: Do I go first? Okay. Sorry 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
92

1 about that. Hello. My name Anne Ekelad, A-n-n-e 

2 E-k-e-l-a-d. I'm here speaking to support the 

3 EPA's Clean Power Plan. I'm here as a concerned 

4 citizen of Colorado and the United States, but 

5 most of all, I'm here as a mother.

6 When we talk about climate change, a lot 

7 of time the dialog is focused on what kind of 

8 world we will be leaving our children and 

9 grandchildren, and this is very important. 

10 However, we need to focus on the effects climate 

11 change is having right now, as they are viewed 

12 through the uncertain and dangerous future we 

13 face without strong regulations on carbon.

14 In September 2013, northern Colorado, 

15 where I make my home, was ravaged by flooding. 

16 Prior to the floods, we had been in a state of 

17 drought, and when the equivalent of an entire 

18 year's worth of precipitation fell in a matter of 

19 days, it caused over $1 billion in damage to 

20 homes, businesses, and infrastructure, as well as 

21 taking the lives of eight people. These kind of 

22 extreme weather events used to be called 100-year 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
93

1 floods, but without curbing carbon pollution, 

2 they will be come once-a-mortgage events. Is 

3 this really the kind of uncertain future we want 

4 to hand off to our children?

5 This is my son, Lex [ph]. He is 3 years 

6 old and is the light of my life. He brings me 

7 more joy than I knew a person could experience. 

8 However, that joy gets dampened when I think 

9 about what his world, what our world might look 

10 like in 15, 20, or 30 years. I am gravely 

11 concerned. Clean air to breathe, a livable 

12 climate -- these are things that we take for 

13 granted every day, but they are things that we 

14 need to work hard to protect. They are things 

15 that every child, every person on this planet is 

16 entitled to, and we're not going to have them 

17 unless we take serious action now to address 

18 carbon pollution.

19 Curbing carbon pollution requires 

20 immediate and sustained action. Carbon pollution 

21 from power plants is the largest single source of 

22 carbon dioxide emissions. Those who would oppose 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
94

1 these common sense standards included in the 

2 EPA's Clean Power Plan need to explain why they 

3 support no limit at all for power plants with 

4 this kind of pollution. Why don't we all agree 

5 that unlimited pollution is bad for everyone? We 

6 have the technology to move forward with a clean 

7 energy future. We just need to leave this kind 

8 of polluting energy in our past.

9 Carbon pollution harms our health, our 

10 economy, and our way of life -- air pollution and 

11 the asthma it causes, property losses like the 

12 loss of homes from wildfires in Colorado Springs 

13 in 2013, and the increased food prices that we 

14 will see as crop yields decline, due to extreme 

15 temperatures. Climate change paints a very 

16 frightening picture of our possible future, but 

17 we can still mitigate its worst effects.

18 The EPA's Clean Power Plan is an 

19 important first step in addressing climate 

20 change, but it needs to be stronger. That's why 

21 I'm asking that the EPA strengthens the Clean 

22 Power Plan and finalizes a rule that reduces 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
95

1 carbon dioxide emissions 40 percent below 2005 

2 levels by 2020. 

3 Thank you for taking the time to listen 

4 to my testimony. I appreciate the opportunity to 

5 speak out for myself in this manner.

6 MR. EPSTEIN: Good morning. My name is 

7 Jeremy Epstein. I work for Harcourt Brown & 

8 Carey. We're a national clean energy finance 

9 consulting firm that specializes in energy 

10 finance. We've advised on development of dozens 

11 of clean energy-related programs, some of which 

12 are represented by the speakers here today. 

13 Thanks for the opportunity to get up and speak 

14 today. I appreciate it.

15 I'd like to first applaud the EPA and the 

16 Obama Administration for making 111(d) a reality. 

17 Federal action to curb emissions is long overdue, 

18 and while emissions reduction targets proposed by 

19 111(d) fall short of what our best scientists 

20 have called for, it's a start, and I predict that 

21 states not only meet their targets, but by 

22 existing benefits and job creation while doing 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
96

1 so. Such a result will hopefully create momentum 

2 for states to go beyond 111(d)'s mandates.

3 Harcourt Brown & Carey particularly 

4 supports provisions of 111(d) that deal with 

5 renewable energy and energy efficiency. However, 

6 we'd like to recommend that energy efficiency 

7 targets be strengthened. If the EPA would like 

8 states to reduce energy consumption cheaply and 

9 efficiently, then energy efficiency is the way to 

10 go about it.

11 Section 111(d) should include energy 

12 efficiency requirements rigorous enough to ensure 

13 that reductions in electricity use and the 

14 resulting emissions reductions are real and 

15 verifiable. Technology and methodology exists to 

16 quantify savings. However, without strong 

17 language from the EPA, accurate measurement and 

18 verification of these savings across the grid 

19 will likely not be a reality.

20 Since the Stimulus Act in 2010, states 

21 and local governments have developed a plethora 

22 of proven tools to deploy energy efficiency and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
97

1 renewables to reduce energy consumption. In 

2 addition, the stimulus created a market 

3 transformation whereby a great number of private 

4 firms have been created or expanded to meet the 

5 demand of a growing energy efficiency industry.

6 As a representative of Harcourt Brown & 

7 Carey, I want it to be clear the importance of 

8 financing as a tool to ensure states are able to 

9 meet their energy efficiency and renewable energy 

10 targets. Since the rise and fall -- sorry. 

11 Since the time of ARRA, we have seen an 

12 unprecedented level of capital investment from 

13 the private sector into funding clean energy 

14 through structured finance products. Let's keep 

15 that momentum.

16 PACE, Property Assessed Clean Energy, is 

17 one example of a statewide legislation that will 

18 enable rapid deployment of capital in order to 

19 make energy retrofits a reality in commercial 

20 buildings. States have enacted PACE legislation 

21 on their own with the right guidance provided by 

22 the EPA, and assistance in bringing other states 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
98

1 up to speed, could help states leverage the 

2 development of what's already been done to boost 

3 local economies or reduce the emissions through 

4 energy efficiency.

5 The extent to which implementation of 

6 structured financial products can help be 

7 integrated as part of 111(d), or as part of an 

8 official tool kit for states, will only help 

9 states meet their emissions reduction goals in 

10 the most cost-effective manner.

11 Again, thank you to EPA and the Obama 

12 Administration for taking action on the issue. 

13 This is important to me, both as a professional

14 and as a concerned citizen.

15 Thanks for your time.

16 MS. NOONAN: Thank you, and one question 

17 for you. If there are things that you could 

18 submit in writing for what you think should be 

19 included in that tool kit, we would very much 

20 appreciate that.

21 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah, I could do so. 

22 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. And up next we 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
99

1 have Lisa Hickey and Michael Hendryx, and on 

2 deck, if you'd like to sit in the chairs behind 

3 the speaker's table, Charles Nelson and Marshall 

4 Johnson. And please remember to spell your name.

5 MS. HICKEY: Hello. My name is Lisa 

6 Torman [ph] Hickey. I'm an attorney. My last 

7 name is H-i-c-k-e-y. I'm a practicing attorney 

8 with Alpern Myers Stuart LLC in Colorado Springs. 

9 I'm also a business owner. I've lived in 

10 Colorado Springs for over 30 years. My work is 

11 focused primarily on electricity regulation in 

12 several western states. My clients and I 

13 appreciate the hard work and leadership role 

14 undertaken by the Administration and the EPA in 

15 publishing this Clean Power Plan, the proposed 

16 rule forming a strong foundation for action. 

17 Flexibility can be used for each state's 

18 unique benefit, but I will recommend multistate 

19 cooperation, so that each state can benefit from 

20 even greater diversity of options. Multistate 

21 cooperation will increase reliability and 

22 efficiency. I'll give more examples of that in a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
100

1 minute.

2 Overall, we believe the rule can be 

3 strengthened to better reach emissions reduction 

4 goals and increase economic development. I just 

5 came back from Nevada, where NV Energy is 

6 preparing to document the economic development 

7 and jobs that will be created from 550 megawatts 

8 of new renewable energy. These projects will be 

9 built to replace 800 megawatts of retiring coal 

10 plants. Some of that development will be on 

11 Indian tribal lands and on federal properties, 

12 providing new source of revenues.

13 The draft rule underestimates the strong 

14 role that renewable energy can play in all 

15 western states to reduce emissions. Renewable 

16 energy has grown at an astonishing rate, because 

17 of rich resources and strong competition in 

18 healthy markets. These industries have been 

19 strengthened by federal and state policies which 

20 help increase market penetration and competition 

21 to drive down wind and solar cost to unforeseen 

22 lows. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
101

1 Renewable energy competes on cost basis 

2 now with gas and coal resources in Colorado. 

3 Long-term stable price renewable energy contracts 

4 will repay Americans many times over for the cost 

5 of these incentives we have used to build these 

6 industries.

7 Multistate agreements can reduce 

8 emissions more than the individual states could 

9 achieve by working independently. Several of the 

10 largest utilities serve more than one state, and 

11 they operate under several different state 

12 regulatory regimes. I'm thinking primarily of 

13 PacifiCorp and MidAmerican, Xcel Energy, and the 

14 cooperatives like Tri-State. Consistency in 

15 sharing of benefits and opportunities between 

16 states can bring larger emission reductions at 

17 lower cost. 

18 Multistate agreements can provide more 

19 diverse options. Some states, like Wyoming, are 

20 too far behind in their renewables development to 

21 move forward quickly, and they remain too 

22 dependent on coal resources. Therefore, at least 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
102

1 over the short term, a multistate agreement 

2 allowing some trading of different types of 

3 resources would be helpful. Wyoming and Utah 

4 should be working with Oregon and Washington. 

5 Colorado would be working with Wyoming and New 

6 Mexico. This will help ensure that the rule 

7 promotes economic development. All western 

8 states can benefit from flexible trade 

9 agreements, and we can jointly provide protection 

10 for the important benefits we have promised these 

11 retiring mine workers.

12 The EPA has underestimated the potential 

13 for growth of renewable energy. The rule should 

14 rely on resource availability, which has already 

15 been measured in each state, rather than basing 

16 its assumptions for renewables on renewable 

17 portfolio standards. Renewable portfolio 

18 standards are a floor, not a ceiling. They vary 

19 between states because they are dependent on 

20 political will, which is too often based on 

21 short-term thinking. 

22 If we rely primarily on renewable 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
103

1 portfolio standards to establish the target for 

2 renewable energy penetration, we will miss 

3 ecnomic development opportunities. This rule can 

4 bring long-term benefits and jobs. Renewable 

5 energy is already supporting 10,000 jobs in 

6 Colorado alone.

7 Second, we have developed some policies 

8 in the West which can be used as good examples. 

9 For example, Xcel Energy has cut its carbon 

10 emissions by 31 percent from 2005 to 2020, by 

11 investing in renewable energy and energy 

12 efficiency and natural gas. Colorado's Clean 

13 Air, Clean Jobs legislation was a helpful tool. 

14 We made replacement power decisions based on 

15 least-cost principles. Xcel Energy and the 

16 Public Utility Commission reduced costs because 

17 they understood the long-term savings in fuel 

18 price hedging benefits from renewable energy. 

19 Wind and solar energy in addition to natural gas 

20 found to be cheaper than just adding natural gas 

21 generation.

22 Thank you for hearing me.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
104

1 DR. HENDRYX: My name is Michael Hendryx. 

2 H-e-n-d-r-y-x. I am a professor in the School of 

3 Public Health at Indiana University. I would 

4 like to thank the EPA for responding to the issue 

5 of climate change and for recognizing the 

6 contribution that burning coal and other fossil 

7 fuels makes to climate change and to poor public 

8 health. However, the rule as proposed is 

9 incomplete and fails, in my view, for two 

10 interrelated reasons.

11 First, it fails to recognize the public 

12 health problem created not only by fossil fuel 

13 combustion by also by the extraction, processing, 

14 and transportation of fossil fuels. Second, the 

15 proposed state-specific emission goals provide 

16 insufficient weight to the contributions that 

17 renewable fuels must make to reducing climate 

18 change and adverse public health impacts.

19 First, regarding the problem of 

20 extraction, processing, and transportation. Coal 

21 and natural gas do not simply appear at power 

22 plants, ready for use. Coal mining is itself a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
105

1 highly polluting industry that uses fossil fuel2 based explosives and machinery, destroying 

3 landscapes, and fouling local air and water. 

4 Millions of tons of coal are transported using 

5 oil- and diesel-burning engines, in trucks, 

6 barges, and trains. Coal is processed at local 

7 facilities that generate water and air pollution. 

8 Over the past 8 years, my colleagues and 

9 I have published over 25 research papers, in 

10 peer-reviewed journals, that document serious 

11 public health problems for people who live near 

12 coal mining and processing sites. People in 

13 these communities are more likely than those in 

14 non-mining communities to suffer from cancer, 

15 heart and lung disease, and poor birth outcomes, 

16 including higher rates of birth defects.

17 We have documented that residential 

18 communities near surface coal mining and 

19 processing sites have elevated levels of 

20 particulate matter in ambient air. The dust, 

21 collected from these residential areas, contains 

22 silica, metals, and compounds including 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
106

1 polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. In one study, 

2 we found that levels of ultra-fine particulate 

3 matter, collected from coal mining communities, 

4 was comparable to that found in large urban 

5 settings. Laboratory studies indicate that the 

6 particulate matter causes vascular dysfunction 

7 and promotes tumor-like changes in human lung 

8 sounds.

9 Second, regarding renewables. The 

10 proposed rule includes only modest goals for 

11 state-specific renewable energy generation. My 

12 state of Indiana, for example, is expected to 

13 generate only 7 percent of its energy by 

14 renewables by the year 2029. Arizona, the state 

15 with enormous solar potential, is expected to 

16 generate only 4 percent from renewables. In 

17 contrast, consider that Germany, today, provides 

18 as much as 50 percent of its country's 

19 electricity needs using solar power. 

20 In the absence of more ambitious but 

21 achievable renewable energy goals, the EPA's 

22 proposed rule will result in states continuing to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
107

1 rely on coal, burned more efficiently, perhaps, 

2 and on increased use of natural gas. Burning 

3 coal more cleanly does nothing to address the 

4 pollution caused by coal mining and the 

5 subsequent health problems created in mining 

6 communities. 

7 Increasing evidence also points to the 

8 highly occluding nature of natural gas 

9 extraction, especially in the form of hydraulic 

10 fracturing. To ignore the contributions to 

11 climate change and poor public health caused by 

12 fossil fuel extraction of both coal and natural 

13 gas is a serious oversight in the proposed rule.

14 In conclusion, I applaud the EPA's 

15 efforts to address the problems caused by 

16 overreliance on fossil fuels. I urge the EPA to 

17 increase the goals for renewables. I caution the 

18 EPA that we cannot simply replace coal with 

19 natural gas, or replace coal burned in dirtier 

20 plants with that same coal burned in slightly 

21 cleaner plants, without considering the climate 

22 change and public health costs of the full 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
108

1 production cycle of these fuels -- extraction, 

2 processing, transportation, combustion, and 

3 disposal -- not simply the cost of their 

4 combustion.

5 Thank you.

6 MS. NOONAN: I have a question for each 

7 of you. Ms Hickey, you talked about that the 

8 renewable targets were too low. If you have 

9 additional information that you'd like to submit 

10 on what they should be, we would be happy to have 

11 this.

12 MS. HICKEY: Glad to do it. Thank you.

13 MS. NOONAN: And then Dr. Hendryx, if you 

14 have any of these 25 articles that you think 

15 would be to our benefit, please submit them for 

16 the record.

17 DR. HENDRYX: I'll do that. Thank you.

18 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Mr. Nelson and 

19 Mr. Johnson?

20 MR. NELSON: I want to thank the EPA for 

21 giving an opportunity to come and give testimony 

22 at this hearing. My name is Chuck Nelson, C-h-uOLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
109

1 c-k N-e-l-s-o-n. I come from Boone County, West 

2 Virginia, in central Appalachia. I'm a retired 

3 underground coal miner. I'm a member of United 

4 Mine Workers Local 6608 in District 17. I'm now 

5 a volunteer for the Ohio Valley Environmental 

6 Coalition. 

7 Rules that the EPA are proposing is a 

8 first step in moving forward to a clean energy 

9 policy. In order to have a good economic policy, 

10 one has to have a good environmental policy. 

11 They work hand in hand. You can't have one 

12 without the other. Renewable energy moves us 

13 away from the devastating impacts from the fossil 

14 fuel industry. One thing is certain, that all 

15 fossil fuels have a huge effect on our carbon 

16 footprint and have an enormous effect on our 

17 public health. 

18 Our climate crisis, as we know it, 

19 continues to spiral out of control. I live where 

20 coal was founded, in the heart of central 

21 Appalachia. As a 30-year underground veteran, a 

22 fourth-generation coal miner, I lived daily with 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
110

1 the devastating impacts from coal. But not only 

2 are the coalfield communities impacted, it's all 

3 international communities that are now 

4 threatened.

5 When looking at the impacts of coal, the 

6 entire death cycle of coal must be considered, 

7 from the extraction to the cleaning to the 

8 transporting to the burning process, coal fuels 

9 on every cycle. According to the federal EPA and 

10 CDC, coal kills, on an average, 23,000 Americans 

11 each year from the emissions from coal-fired 

12 power plants, and those same power plants emit 

13 enough mercury that it contributes to 640,000 

14 birth defects, such as autism, blindness, kidney 

15 and liver diseases.

16 In Appalachia, our water and our air are 

17 among the nation's worst, and mining practices 

18 like mountaintop removal mining is the worst 

19 environmental disaster happening anywhere in the 

20 world today. 

21 To make things even worse, our state 

22 regulatory agency has zero percent control over 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
111

1 mining regulations. In fact, they are 

2 spokespersons for the coal industry, than an 

3 agency that's supposed to be enforcing the law. 

4 With now over 20 peer-reviewed health studied 

5 completed about health issues from living near 

6 mountaintop removal sites, the practice still 

7 continues. But not only are people getting sick 

8 and dying, entire communities are being swallowed 

9 up, depopulated, and bulldozed over like they 

10 never existed.

11 Our politicians say that coal is the 

12 economic cornerstone of our state. I see it with 

13 many other as being more of a curse. Our 

14 communities and families were far better off 

15 prior to the mining of coal. They talk about 

16 prosperity, but after 130 years of mining, we're 

17 still waiting for that prosperity to arrive.

18 Coal mining has actually destroyed any 

19 economic future for the coalfields. The 

20 Appalachian Mountains are among the world's 

21 oldest mountain ranges and are a treasure for all 

22 of us, but we're allowing them to be blown up for 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
112

1 dirty, filthy, temporary energy resources. 

2 The industry always referred to how coal 

3 is the cheapest form of energy. But when adding 

4 in all the external cost that they don't like to 

5 talk about, it is very expensive. We, the 

6 citizens, are paying the true cost of mining 

7 coal, with our health, with our lives, and with 

8 our environmental damages. We are not 

9 expendable. We are not collateral damage. We 

10 are somebody. No job, no paycheck is worth the 

11 cost that coal puts on society. Jobs aren't 

12 worth a crack on a dead plant.

13 Like I said before, I think the rules are 

14 a good first step, but they need to be more 

15 aggressive. They need to be more aggressive on 

16 all fossil fuels. It's way past time to put 

17 policies -- it's way past time and we need to put 

18 politics and greed aside, and act intelligently 

19 on combating the climate crisis, and for making 

20 the world a more healthier, sustainable future 

21 for all generations that follow. Renewable 

22 energy is not an alternative. It's the next 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
113

1 thing, and with it, much more safer jobs, a 

2 healthier society, and a lot less impact on us 

3 all.

4 My friend, Larry Gibson, always said, 

5 "Our mothers give us birth but the land gives us 

6 life." And a couple things I want to mention, on 

7 closing, is that we had some studies done by the 

8 USGS, a federal agency that came into the 

9 coalfields to do air quality tests and water 

10 quality tests, and they give a presentation to 

11 the communities, and this was pulled. The 

12 support for it and the funding was pulled for it, 

13 and it was influenced by our government 

14 officials. 

15 Another thing is that we have an act, or 

16 bill going through the House of Representatives 

17 right now. It's called the ACHE Act. It's 

18 called the Appalachian Community Health Emergency 

19 Act, which would help a lot of people in 

20 Appalachia. I advise all of you to go home and 

21 talk to your representatives, to get on board and 

22 be cosigners on the ACHE Act. It would help 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
114

1 people in Appalachia tremendously.

2 Thank you for giving me the time.

3 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

4 MR. JOHNSON: [Speaks Navajo.]

5 My name is Marshall Johnson. I'm a 

6 member of To'Nizhoni Ani, a grassroots 

7 organization based on Black Mesa in northeast 

8 Arizona, on the Navajo Dine Reservation. I 

9 believe the EPA should be able to protect public 

10 health and save people, and this rule is a good 

11 start. However, I believe this rule does not go 

12 far enough. 

13 As EPA has said, the emission from the 

14 coal-fired power plants is harming human health. 

15 This is something the Navajo Nation knows far too 

16 well, that emissions from the Navajo Generating 

17 Station and five other coal-fired power plants in 

18 the region is harming tribal health. A host of 

19 respiratory illnesses plague those living on 

20 Black Mesa, from bronchitis, asthma, and black 

21 lung disease. 

22 But it is not just the coal-polluted air 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
115

1 we breathe that is making us sick. Many people 

2 know that Peabody Coal mines coal on Black Mesa, 

3 but Peabody Coal is mining water, too, to supply 

4 its power plant and mining activities. The 

5 Navajo Sandstone Aquifer, which underlies Black 

6 Mesa, is the sole source of drinking water for 

7 Black Mesa and the western Navajo Nation. Not 

8 only is our water depleted, desecrated, our 

9 water, air, and land is contaminated with all 

10 phases of coal use, from mining of the so-called 

11 disposable coal ash, all this to supply the so12 called low-cost energy for the state of Arizona.

13 Arizona today is having trouble how to 

14 execute one criminal, but they and their 

15 corporations and tribal administrations and 

16 Barack Obama are lining my people's nation by 

17 Arizona's brutal savagery laws in a firing squad, 

18 gas chamber, extermination-type execution, and 

19 not obligated of these EPA rules on our 

20 indigenous homelands, and we are the innocent 

21 party.

22 For this rule to be effective, EPA should 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
116

1 look at all stages of impacts of use of coal, 

2 other fossil fuels, nuclear power, for this all 

3 rolls into what comes out of the smokestack and 

4 flows into the waters and winds up in the bodies 

5 of humans and all divine creation.

6 On June of 2012, founding member [speaks 

7 Navajo] Nicole Horseherder testified before a 

8 committee of the United States House of 

9 Representatives. She said, "The Navajo Nation is 

10 the size of Scotland. It is blessed with an 

11 abundance of resources that could provide the 

12 foundation necessary for a transition to 

13 renewable development. 

14 The Navajo Nation encompasses regions 

15 with ample wind, solar, and geothermal resources, 

16 along with the vast expanse of land, including 

17 large reclaimed mining tracts, that is ideal for 

18 locating renewable energy facilities. The 

19 region's solar potential is some of the best in 

20 the world, and certain portions of the 

21 reservation lands have wind resource ratings 

22 capable of supporting utility-scale projects."

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
117

1 My organization, To'Nizhoni Ani, insists 

2 on the transition to renewable energy sources 

3 such as solar and wind energy production for the 

4 health of the land, water, and air and the future 

5 generation. To reverse global warming, protect 

6 human health, and protect the planet, the EPA 

7 must do everything possible to advance in truly 

8 cleaner renewable energy. With the manmade laws 

9 by Arizona, while a child is grasping for clean 

10 air, it's business as usual to keep Navajo at 50 

11 to 60 percent unemployment and poverty level on a 

12 dying coal industry. So-called jobs only 

13 benefits one-third of 1 percent of our nation's 

14 population, the Navajo Nation.

15 Thank you.

16 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Up next we have 

17 Robin Blakeman and James Dietz.

18 MR. DIETZ: Good morning. My name is 

19 James Dietz. I'm the General Manager of Twin 

20 Valleys Public Power District, headquartered in 

21 Cambridge, Nebraska. We are a nonprofit utility 

22 that was formed by local people to bring 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
118

1 electricity to a rural area larger than the state 

2 of Rhode Island. We purchased all of our 

3 electricity and I would like to say again we have 

4 no profit motive. We exist only to serve our 

5 customers. We serve ten small towns at retail, 

6 and we are responsible for getting power to every 

7 community in our service area, except one. 

8 Since you probably haven't ever heard of 

9 our organization or any of the towns that we 

10 serve, why does our area matter? We produce the 

11 food that you eat and the fuel that you use. The 

12 fuel is ethanol and we serve some oil pumping 

13 loads. Electricity is important for both food 

14 and fuel.

15 The Arab Oil Embargo of 1973 shocked the 

16 U.S. The electric utility industry is the only 

17 industry that has responded to please from both 

18 Democrat and Republican presidents over the years 

19 to reduce consumption of foreign oil. Today, as 

20 I'm sure you know, almost none of U.S. 

21 electricity is generated with oil. The energy 

22 generated with oil was generally replaced with 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
119

1 coal. In Nebraska, this coal is all low-sulfur 

2 coal from the Powder River Basin. Now, with the 

3 Administration's war on coal, will Nebraska be 

4 penalized for this movement towards using coal, 

5 our nation's most abundant fuel? 

6 Previously, I worked for a generating 

7 electric utility and was involved in construction 

8 of one of Nebraska's major coal-fired power 

9 plants from design studies and on past commercial 

10 operation to correct some deficiencies. I was 

11 there at about 3 o'clock in the morning when it 

12 synchronized to the grid for the first time. 

13 Let me tell you what the thinking was at 

14 that time, the way I remember it. Our utility 

15 had an oil-fired power plant that ran 24/7. 

16 Natural gas was being imported. Some local gas 

17 companies would not connect new homes because of 

18 concerns about future gas supply, and plans were 

19 being made to import liquefied natural gas to the 

20 U.S. In 1978, gas was banned from power plant 

21 boiler fuel. We thought we were on the side of 

22 the angels by building a coal-fired power plant, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
120

1 since coal was a domestic energy source. It had 

2 been used for over 200 years and had a stable 

3 price.

4 Someone said, "That was then. This is 

5 now. It's time to shut down these plants." But 

6 this premature shutdown will be costly as these 

7 plants are still operating very efficiently. The 

8 plant where our utility receives most of this 

9 coal-fired power has been called the lowest-cost 

10 power plant in the world. Maybe I should repeat 

11 that. We get power from the plant that's been 

12 called the lowest-cost power plant in the world, 

13 of any fuel type. It currently meets all 

14 environmental regulations.

15 But let me explain why I think it would 

16 be a real tragedy to shut these major plants down 

17 prematurely or reduce their generation output. 

18 The plants were built, yes, several years ago, 

19 some of them. The Nebraska utilities have 

20 invested in them over and over again, from a 

21 second rail line into one plant that had to cross 

22 the South Platte River to achieve better coal 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
121

1 transportation contracts, to new baghouse 

2 emissions controls, to new water wells for backup 

3 cooling, and the investments continue. A new 

4 220-mile high voltage transmission line is 

5 planned from one of these major coal-fired power 

6 plants, and, in my opinion, when this line is 

7 placed in service, the state's transmission 

8 system will finally have caught up with the 

9 output of this major power plant.

10 The plant that I worked on has just 

11 completed an 11-mile long, 12-inch natural gas 

12 pipeline to the plant. You might say that is 

13 good; now the plant can switch to gas, but the 

14 boilers are too massive. Natural gas will be 

15 used for boiler flame stabilization and for 

16 start-up fuel. When they begin using it for 

17 start-up, it will replace foreign oil that is 

18 used right now for start-up. As you can see, the 

19 quest to discontinue oil continues. These plants 

20 keep being modernized because they are the 

21 lowest-cost operating plants in the fleet.

22 The electric utility industry is the most 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
122

1 capital-intensive industry there is. Any abrupt 

2 change in generation mix will cause rate 

3 increases.

4 In Nebraska, we have millions of 

5 horsepower of electric power to irrigation 

6 pumping. The EPA says this proposal would 

7 increase electric rates. Irrigators switch fuel 

8 fairly easily, based on price signals. Where we 

9 have had natural gas available, some irrigators 

10 have switched from natural gas to diesel to 

11 electric over the years.

12 MS. NOONAN: Sir, if you could submit the 

13 rest of your comments for the record, that would 

14 be wonderful. Thank you.

15 MR. DIETZ: Okay. Thank you.

16 MS. BLAKEMAN: Hello. Thank you for this 

17 opportunity to speak. My name is Robin Blakeman, 

18 R-o-b-i-n B-l-a-k-e-m-a-n. I'm here today, as I 

19 was in D.C. on November 7, 2013, wearing three 

20 hats. One of that of a faith community leader, 

21 another is of an employee of the West Virginia22 based Ohio Valley Environmental Coalition, and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
123

1 the third is that of an eighth-generation 

2 southern West Virginia resident and a mother.

3 Why did I feel the need to travel all the 

4 way from West Virginia to Denver to attend this 

5 hearing? Because I want you to know that there 

6 are people in West Virginia and central 

7 Appalachia who totally support the EPA 

8 regulations on new and existing coal-fired power 

9 plants, and we hope you will implement them 

10 swiftly and go further.

11 As a member of a Presbyterian faith 

12 community, I believe I am called to be a steward 

13 of God's good creation and to care for the most 

14 vulnerable populations in all communities, 

15 including West Virginia. To that end, I have 

16 joined a divestment movement within the 

17 denomination, seeking divestment of PCUSA's funds 

18 from fossil fuel entities over a 5-year period of 

19 time, and that is in a study process right now, 

20 in the denomination.

21 As a member of an organization which 

22 actively seeks to preserve clean air, water, and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
124

1 equal justice for all citizens in West Virginia, 

2 I am here to urge the EPA to fully adopt and 

3 enforce strict standards for overall emission 

4 reductions, while also working with states and 

5 utilities to prioritize shifting to truly 

6 renewable sources, like wind, solar, geothermal, 

7 and micro hydropower, all of which, I might add, 

8 exist in West Virginia.

9 We need these instead of shifting to 

10 seemingly lower cost fossil fuels such as shale 

11 gas, which, in fact, has huge hidden costs at 

12 extraction sites and when burned. West Virginia 

13 is, by the way, being ravaged by both mountaintop 

14 removal coal mining and Marcellus Shale gas 

15 fracking, so I truly know that neither of these 

16 fuel sources can ever be clean, as evidenced in a 

17 water contamination that happened last January, 

18 which polluted the water source for 300,000 

19 people, with a coal-washing chemical.

20 I also know that counties in West 

21 Virginia with the highest extractions of coal are 

22 the poorest. If the coal industry is trying to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
125

1 make us rich, I wish they would stop.

2 I urge EPA to move quickly with the final 

3 rules, so that the U.S. can take a first step to 

4 address the increasingly urgent problem of 

5 climate change, which threatens mass extinctions 

6 of many species and the health and well being of 

7 existing human generations on earth, as well as 

8 future yet-to-be-born ones. 

9 Since experts have drawn correlations 

10 between asthma rates and living near coal-fired

11 power plants, I want to conclude with some facts 

12 from a Department of Health and Human Resources 

13 report, published in West Virginia, titled "A 

14 Strategic Plan for Addressing Asthma in West 

15 Virginia." 

16 Asthma presents a significant challenge 

17 in West Virginia. Of the more than 22 million 

18 Americans who have asthma, there are over 31,000 

19 children, and over 123,000 adults in West 

20 Virginia who currently have asthma. In a state 

21 with only 1.8 million in population, this is a 

22 significant percentage who suffer from this 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
126

1 often-devastating illness.

2 The rate of asthma hospitalizations has 

3 more than doubled among seniors, age 65 and over, 

4 since 1996, and also West Virginia adult females 

5 are nearly twice as likely to have asthma, twice 

6 as likely to be hospitalized for asthma, and are 

7 significantly more likely to die from asthma than 

8 males.

9 In short, from West Virginia's example, 

10 it seems clear to me that asthma-related health 

11 effects of living near a coal-fired power plant 

12 often cost people who can least afford it --

13 children, seniors, and women -- far more than 

14 they can afford. We want choices in West 

15 Virginia, not just coal-fired energy. There are 

16 also externalized costs to taxpayers when medical 

17 bills must be subsidized. Any delay in 

18 implementation of EPA regulations on coal-fired 

19 power plants will not only intensify climate 

20 change effects but will also cost billions in 

21 health care and unnecessary human suffering.

22 Thank you.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
127

1 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. I'd like to 

2 thank all the speakers this morning, and now 

3 we're going to take a 10-minute break and return 

4 to this room after that. Thank you.

5 [Recess taken from 11:24 to 11:36 a.m.]

6 MS. NOONAN: Thank you, everyone. 

7 Welcome back from the short break. The next 

8 folks up to speak will be Patricia Popple and Ken 

9 Schmidt, and then on deck, if Heather Anderson 

10 and Kristen Pearce want to sit in the chairs 

11 behind the speakers, we'll be ready for them.

12 And once again I'll just remind everyone 

13 to spell your name. Thank you.

14 MS. POPPLE: I am Patricia Popple, P-a-t15 r-i-c-i-a P-o-p-p-l-e, and I'm from Chippewa 

16 Falls, Wisconsin, and I'm presenting testimony 

17 about the huge impact the fossil fuel industry is 

18 having in Wisconsin. 

19 I am a retired educator, administrator 

20 turned citizen activist 6 years ago because of my 

21 great concern regarding the health and safety of 

22 the people I have been working with in Wisconsin 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
128

1 and elsewhere on the extraction of black sand, 

2 and on the grassroots level I've worked with many 

3 organizations and helped develop the Concerned 

4 Chippewa Citizens and the Save The Hills 

5 Alliance. I also print the Frac Sand Sentinel, 

6 distributed to over 2,000 people. Its 

7 facilitated networking and has had the impact of 

8 educating and mobilizing groups about issues 

9 related to non-metallic mining.

10 Many Wisconsinites are frantic and, 

11 frankly, angry about what is happening to them 

12 locally and statewide. They are fearful about 

13 the state's appearances as thousands of acres of 

14 500 million-year-old sandstone and millions of 

15 tons of silica sand from our beloved hills are 

16 being knifed out of the landscape for the sole 

17 purpose of fracking natural gas and oil. 

18 Gigantic scabs, useless for productive farming, 

19 remain in their place.

20 Most of all, health is being overlooked 

21 for the big money promises of the fossil fuel 

22 industry. I am speaking about frac sand mining 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
129

1 today because the EPA's proposed carbon pollution 

2 standards address only a small segment of the 

3 pollution issues faced in the fossil fuel 

4 industry.

5 The precautionary principle states that 

6 when an activity raises threats of harm to human 

7 health or the environment, precautionary measures 

8 should be taken, even if some cause-and-effect 

9 relationships are not fully established, 

10 scientifically. Corporations, government 

11 agencies, and others should bear the burden of 

12 proof. Instead, it is left to the grassroots 

13 groups and individuals to fight for their own 

14 existence and that of their children and future 

15 generations.

16 EIS's are not conducted in Wisconsin for 

17 this industry, despite the fact that studies have 

18 been requested statewide and federally. Why 

19 isn't the EPA and the DNR acting on behalf of the 

20 citizenry? Instead, the industry is encouraged 

21 and permitted to grow and expand by the very 

22 officials entrusted to protect the population.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
130

1 The heavy industrial footprint of frac 

2 sand mining continues to grow exponentially. We 

3 have 135 active frac sand facilities and 94 

4 inactive but permitted, as of May 1st. Pollution 

5 knows no boundaries in this industry, and there 

6 are few limits in Wisconsin. Large dryers, 

7 fueled by natural gas, run continuously to 

8 prepare for sand transport after it is washed. 

9 Trucks and rail cars, some uncovered, criss-cross 

10 the state in huge numbers, day and night, often 

11 leaving remnants of their cargo behind, or 

12 dumped.

13 I witnessed a street-sweeper this past 

14 week, attempting to clean up the road in front of 

15 a mine, spewing forth vast dusts of clouds. I 

16 have personally witnessed industrial sludge, 

17 containing baghouse waste, clay cakes, and other 

18 waste, dribbling from trucks onto highways and 

19 left to dry there, to become fugitive dust, as 

20 the remainder of the load is carried back to the 

21 mines for reclamation purposes.

22 An abandoned mine has huge piles of sand 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
131

1 with wind creating dust storms in a residential 

2 area. They were reported to air quality 

3 specialists; no one shows up. They say when wind 

4 speeds are up again, we may make a visit. 

5 Meanwhile, the people living nearby are guinea 

6 pigs in the storm because of the lack of 

7 standards in our state. In some locations, waste 

8 sand is being sold to farmers for cattle bedding. 

9 Who is appointed to oversee the health of the 

10 farmer, or, for that matter, the health of the 

11 cattle? 

12 While plumes of invisible sand, blowing 

13 from mines and processing plants, are reported by 

14 tourists and others, layers of sand are invisible 

15 in the heavy snows and on rooftops and cars. 

16 Blasting is common, creating huge volumes of 

17 dust, no restriction as to where facilities are 

18 constructed. The mining operations run 

19 continuously and the companies try to assure us 

20 that there is nothing to be concerned about 

21 because there are no studies.

22 This is happening in Wisconsin. It's an 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
132

1 industry gone wild. There are no hazardous 

2 warnings issued like they are in some places in 

3 Canada, even. Respirable crystalline silica dust 

4 is a proven carcinogen, eventually causing 

5 silicosis and other disease. No studies show 

6 that life is safe for those residing near or 

7 distant from the facilities. Despite our pleas 

8 to the EPA and the DNR, we are not heard. 

9 I have two asks, that the EPA visit 

10 Wisconsin to see the conditions firsthand, and I 

11 also ask that frac sand mining be regulated under 

12 the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts. The EPA and 

13 the Wisconsin DNR have to get right and be held 

14 accountable for their actions.

15 I have only offered you a few examples of 

16 some of the things going on, but we need to move 

17 to a self-sustaining energy plan that will engage 

18 our country's people in productive work, 

19 designing new and efficient actions that will 

20 lead us into a healthier life for now and for 

21 future generations.

22 Thank you.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
133

1 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

2 MR. SCHMITT: I am Ken Schmitt. K-e-n S3 c-h-m-i-t-t. My wife, Laura, and I both come 

4 from a long line of farmers, dating back to the 

5 1800s, in Wisconsin. Along with our four 

6 children, ages 3 to 9, we raise grass-fed beef in 

7 the western Chippewa County, Wisconsin. We now 

8 live in the southern edge of an industrial frac 

9 sand mining district, which extends north across 

10 the county line into Barron County. Prior to 

11 2008, none of us dreamed that our agricultural 

12 area would ever be degraded so much in 6 short 

13 years. 

14 Frac sand is needed to extract hard-to15 reach natural gas and oil deposits, and is mined 

16 from sandstone that underlies much of Wisconsin. 

17 We now have more industrial sand mines in these 

18 two counties than existed in the entire state 10 

19 years ago.

20 The village of New Auburn straddles the 

21 county line. Within 7 miles of the village, 

22 there are more than 11 frac sand mines, with over 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
134

1 3,000 acres permitted since mid 2011. Most of 

2 these are expected to expand in the next few 

3 years. There are also 4 frac sand drying plants 

4 within 4 miles of the village, with talk of 

5 possibly two more. All of these industrial frac 

6 sand facilities, totaling about 150 in Wisconsin, 

7 have received air permits from DNR, which acts as 

8 an enforcement agency for EPA under the Clean Air 

9 Act.

10 DNR has permitted all of these facilities 

11 without considering fugitive dust sources in each 

12 facility in the permit, using the same 2.5-micron 

13 ambient air rating, without counting cumulative 

14 impacts of multiple facilities or emissions in 

15 the transporting of the sand. No regulating 

16 agency in Wisconsin requires any monitoring for 

17 2.5 particulate or crystalline silica, so no one 

18 knows what hazards citizens around these 

19 facilities face in Wisconsin. 

20 Is waiting for people to get sick from 

21 toxic air pollutants fulfilling either EPA or 

22 DNR's responsibility to protect citizens, as 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
135

1 required by the Clean Air Act?

2 Many of these facilities also use well 

3 water for washing of the sand, degrading our 

4 fresh water resources and permanently ruining 

5 many acres of very productive farmland. 

6 I believe this rule will simply trade 

7 environmental issues of coal for the 

8 environmental issues of natural gas, and further 

9 drive the destruction of farmland and degradation 

10 of fresh water in Wisconsin. This same 

11 degradation is occurring in areas where gas and 

12 oil is actually extracted, hydraulic fracturing. 

13 We, as a nation, need to dedicate substantial 

14 resources to the research and development of 

15 technology to store energy generated from wind 

16 and solar on a large scale. If we can accomplish 

17 that, then we will be well on our way to moving 

18 past the fossil fuel age.

19 Sooner or later, we need to move beyond 

20 fossil fuels, because they are a finite resource. 

21 Wouldn't it be better to do it on our timetable 

22 rather than a resource's timetable? We are 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
136

1 wrecking far to much of our productive arable 

2 farmland and clean fresh drinking water in this 

3 country, to get the last bit of fossil fuels. 

4 Humans have gotten along without oil and 

5 gas for thousands of years, but we can't survive 

6 without food and drinkable water. How short7 sighted can we be? What kind of legacy are we 

8 leaving for our children and grandchildren?

9 That was a speech I prepared. As I 

10 listened to the 5 to 6 hours of testimony between 

11 yesterday and today, I've had a few more 

12 thoughts. I don't know -- I might screw up the 

13 other one by talking about it, but we're going to 

14 try.

15 I know much of what I said did not 

16 directly relate to carbon. However, to just look 

17 at the carbon is much too narrow of a view. EPA 

18 must consider all of the negative impacts of each 

19 avenue, such as the frac sand mines in my state, 

20 serious issues at the frac sites, et cetera. If 

21 you do, you will realize how important it is to 

22 move beyond fossil fuels. They are finite.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
137

1 As a farmer, one of the few that I've 

2 heard in those 5 or 6 hours of hearings, I cannot 

3 stress enough the importance of preserving good 

4 arable farmland and good water resources. The 

5 human risk cannot and will not survive without 

6 both of these.

7 And there was a quote in yesterday's 

8 hearing. I'd heard it once before and I swore 

9 I'd never forget it, but I had, but I'm going to 

10 repeat it because it needs to be repeated. "The 

11 end of the Stone Age did not end because we ran 

12 out of stones."

13 Thank you.

14 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. Heather 

15 Andersen and Crispin Pierce, and on deck, Susan 

16 Ringdahl and Rosalynn [ph] Bower, if you'd like 

17 to take the seats behind the speakers.

18 MS. ANDERSEN: My name is Heather 

19 Andersen. Heather, H-e-a-t-h-e-r, Andersen, A-n20 d-e-r-s-e-n. Thanks for allowing us to testify 

21 at this hearing. 

22 I live within a radius of 50 miles of 40 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
138

1 of these frac sand facilities. Silica sand, also 

2 known as frac sand, is used in the hydrofracking 

3 industry. This sand, mixed with chemicals, keeps 

4 the fissures open underground and allows for the 

5 production of oil and natural gas. With this 

6 rule, the EPA has expressed interest in 

7 protecting citizens' health. However, emissions 

8 from smokestacks of coal-powered plants are only 

9 a small part of what needs to be addressed. In 

10 my area of Wisconsin, citizens have been fighting 

11 to protect their health, safety, and welfare from 

12 the frac sand industry.

13 In the testimony that was presented, 

14 there has been discussion of pollution from 

15 industries using fossil fuels, the science of 

16 numbers and graphs. However, what's lacking in 

17 these testimonies are the voices and the faces of 

18 children, of people who live in these towns. My 

19 focus is going to be giving a face and a voice to 

20 the citizens living near these sand mines, these 

21 industries, especially those living in and near a 

22 small village of New Auburn, Wisconsin, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
139

1 approximately 554 people. I'll relay these 

2 stories in hopes that you don't forget the 

3 ordinary citizens that are affected, and will be 

4 forever affected by this frac sand mining.

5 More than 900 diesel trucks go through 

6 this small village in a 10-hour day. The 

7 citizens hear, smell, and see these trucks, and 

8 there is the sand that falls from these trucks, 

9 the sand that comes from, that's layered on the 

10 streets, unswept sand coating not only the 

11 streets but all aspects of their lives. A woman 

12 of the village stopped a man in charge of one of 

13 the plants and showed him the white rag that she 

14 uses to wash down her clotheslines. It was black 

15 from diesel fumes. The man turned to her and 

16 just frankly stated, "Get a clothes dryer like 

17 everyone else. Stop complaining."

18 A family has to move their master bedroom 

19 from the upstairs into their basement because of 

20 the sound of 100-plus railroad cars, coupling and 

21 uncoupling throughout the night. They can no 

22 longer sleep with their windows open and listen 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
140

1 to the sounds of a summer night, smell the fresh 

2 air. In place of it, they have to smell diesel 

3 fuel. They have to hear the sounds that the 

4 coupling and uncoupling of the these cars make. 

5 The hear the heavy industrial equipment that 

6 doesn't stop at night.

7 And then, I've spoken about the dust. 

8 There's always dust. There's dust covering 

9 homes, covering clean clothes that are hanging on 

10 a clothesline, clogging screens, moving a child's 

11 outdoor birthday picnic indoors because in the 

12 short time that the mom has set the plates on the 

13 table they were covered with sand, the dust from 

14 the mining industry.

15 A teacher and his wife pulled their 

16 children out of a local school because of their 

17 concern for the silica dust from a facility just 

18 blocks from that school. The filtration system 

19 in the school had to be upgraded. The upgrading 

20 of the filters certainly may have protected the 

21 students inside the school, but it didn't protect 

22 the students that are outside of the school. The 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
141

1 school board was offered monitoring at no cost, 

2 but they refused that. This family no longer 

3 lives in their house. They walked away from it 

4 after living in it for 10 years. 

5 Lastly, a short story about two brothers, 

6 one a mining engineer, the other a mathematician, 

7 who grew up on a farm near a wetland refuge, 

8 playing, fishing, exploring, and dreaming, as 

9 boys will do, growing to love these acres of 

10 wetland and the biodiversity it presents. The 

11 wetlands were losing it. Now, the mining 

12 companies have put in plants and filled in the 

13 wetlands, polluting the streams. The dreams of 

14 future generations of young boys are now 

15 destroyed.

16 MS. NOONAN: Thank you.

17 MS. ANDERSEN: Yes. Thank you.

18 DR. PIERCE: Good morning and thank you 

19 for this opportunity. I'm Dr. Crispin Pierce. 

20 That's C-r-i-s-p-i-n P-i-e-r-c-e. I'm a 

21 toxicologist, associate professor, and program 

22 director of the Environmental Health Program at 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
142

1 the University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire. My 

2 credentials include 15 peer-reviewed 

3 publications, 44 scientific presentations, and 

4 designation as a Fulbright Scholar. 

5 I traveled 1,000 miles from Wisconsin 

6 today to make two points. The first is that all 

7 fossil fuel use causes health impacts, whether 

8 we're talking about carbon pollution or we're 

9 talking about frac sand extraction and use. The 

10 second is that I fully support the EPA's 

11 initiative to lower the CO2 levels, because this 

12 is so closely tied to human health effects, costs 

13 to our society, and actually cost on private 

14 property, as well.

15 Greenhouse gas emissions, as we know, are 

16 warming our planet. In Wisconsin, we're seeing 

17 longer time periods for Lyme disease to be spread 

18 through ticks, more breeding habitat for 

19 mosquitoes to carry West Nile Virus. We had a 

20 very costly loss of a place called Lake Delton 

21 several years back, with heavy flooding and 

22 raining. We're concerned about the emerald ash 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
143

1 borer. We're concerned about warming trout 

2 streams in Wisconsin. All of these are 

3 associated with the use and burning of coal in 

4 Wisconsin. Coal, in addition, as we know, 

5 pollutes with mercury, so we had fish advisories 

6 for every lake in Wisconsin, for pregnant women. 

7 So coal is a real concern for us in Wisconsin.

8 More recent energy source, we've talked a 

9 little bit about today is hydraulic fracturing. 

10 Frac sand removal, there will be 26 million tons 

11 of frac sand taken out of Wisconsin this year, 

12 and part of that, during the excavation process, 

13 very fine particulates called PM2.5 are left 

14 behind or emitted as part of the mining, 

15 transporting, loading process.

16 Our state-regulated Wisconsin Department 

17 of Natural Resources is requiring less than 10 

18 percent of the 135 facilities to monitor air 

19 quality, and even then they're asking for the 

20 larger PM10, which is much less closely 

21 associated with health effects as the PM2.5, 

22 which is associated with cardiovascular disease, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
144

1 lung cancer, and premature death.

2 To address the important concern that 

3 I've outlined, our research team has been doing 

4 independent testing of air quality around frac 

5 sand mines for the last 5 years, and what we see 

6 is an elevation in the levels of fine 

7 particulates in communities around frac sand 

8 facilities. In order to buy EPA-certified 

9 equipment and compare with EPA standards for 

10 PM2.5, we've now turned to public crowdsource 

11 funding. 

12 I brought with me today one of our 

13 instruments. This is the DustTrak II, and I want 

14 to show how it's useful, particularly as a 

15 measurement of the particulates in frac sand 

16 mining, so I've asked my wife to come help with 

17 this demonstration.

18 Air quality outside today is about 9. 

19 The EPA standard is 12. So even after the rain 

20 in our urban environment, we have substantial 

21 levels. I'm happy to say that as we look at the 

22 levels here in this building, they are 0 or 1, so 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
145

1 there's actually an excellent ventilation system 

2 in the EPA building here, which is good news.

3 I also have vials of the full -- this is 

4 the full natural sand, I call it. This is 

5 freshly mined sand, and then this is the frac 

6 sand after it's been processed. When I open up 

7 the processed vial here -- actually, I turn it 

8 upside down -- we'll look to see if there's much 

9 particulate matter generated. We look here and 

10 we see essentially no change, and that's because 

11 the frac sand particles are the much larger 

12 particles that are taken away from Wisconsin.

13 However, when we look at the full, the 

14 sandstone, the freshly mined sand, we turn this 

15 upside down here, we see that the levels are 

16 going to be quite higher. In this case, 164, 

17 294, 160, so several hundred times higher than 

18 the background level, and 10 to 15 times higher 

19 than EPA standard. That is why monitoring around 

20 frac sand facilities and hydraulic fracturing 

21 operations is essential to protect public health.

22 Even knowing that this rule that I 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
146

1 wholeheartedly support to reduce coal-fired 

2 generation of CO2, even knowing that if this rule 

3 goes through it will likely result in more frac 

4 sand mining in Wisconsin, even knowing that I 

5 want to fully support this initiative, climate 

6 change is so, so closely associated with human 

7 health effects, costs to our society, private 

8 property damage. So I want you to know, although 

9 we're doing this research, we see there are 

10 concerns, we fully believe, I fully support the 

11 EPA's initiative. 

12 All the uses of fossil fuel for energy, 

13 whether we're talking about coal, oil, tar sands, 

14 or methane, natural gas, cause health effects. 

15 The proposed CO2 reductions take a big, important 

16 first step, as we talked also about things like 

17 carbon mitigation fees and renewable energy, in 

18 protecting human health, our costs, and private 

19 property.

20 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both very much. 

21 Rosalynn Bauer and Susan Ringdahl?

22 MS. RINGDAHL: Hi. My name is Susan 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
147

1 Ringdahl. My last name is spelled R-i-n-g-d-a-h2 l. Today I'm speaking in favor of the Clean 

3 Power Plan. I don't always understand politics, 

4 and I don't understand why our well being and why 

5 our clean -- you know, why we should have to 

6 fight for clean air or clean water, and why we 

7 should have to sacrifice our well being. It 

8 doesn't make sense to me that this is all a 

9 question. I don't understand why we have to 

10 fight for this kind of thing. I think we all 

11 share this world, so we all have the 

12 responsibility to take care of it, and do our 

13 part.

14 You know, I think that we're supposed to 

15 love it and we're supposed to do our part to take 

16 care of it, no matter what that is, so that's why 

17 I think it's really important that this rule gets 

18 passed, because it's the least we can do. You 

19 know, it's the least we can do in taking a step 

20 forward and reducing, or slowing down climate 

21 change.

22 MS. BAUER: Hi. My name is Rosalynn 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
148

1 Bauer. The last name is spelled B-a-u-e-r. I'm 

2 here to speak to support the Clean Power Plan. 

3 My personal background is I have a degree in cell 

4 biology. I have a Ph.D. in cell biology, and I 

5 chose that path because I wanted to improve human 

6 health, whether it be through expanding our 

7 knowledge about human health or finding 

8 medications, and that was something I did. I 

9 worked in research until I found out I was 

10 pregnant with twins. 

11 And I now have two, almost 4-year-old 

12 twins, and my world has changed a lot since 

13 having children. The decisions I make on a day14 to-day basis are drastically different from what 

15 it was like before I had kids. It really comes 

16 down to everything they put in their mouth, I 

17 have to think about. The food they put in their 

18 mouth, I think about. The water that they put in 

19 their mouth, I think about. The air that they 

20 breathe, I think about. I have to think about 

21 where we live, because I wonder whether the air 

22 that we're breathing is harming them, and whether 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
149

1 the water that we're drinking is harming them.

2 And my boys have had to grow up with a 

3 completely different type of childhood than I 

4 grew up with. I tell them things like, they want 

5 to ride to the coffee shop in the car, and I tell 

6 them, "We can't ride to the coffee shop in the 

7 car, because every time we get in the car to ride 

8 to the coffee shop, the world gets a little bit 

9 hotter. Every time you run the water to wash 

10 your hands, the longer you keep it on, the world 

11 gets a little bit hotter and the animals die." 

12 And this makes them sad, and it's a sad 

13 world that we have come into, that I have to 

14 raise my kids and tell them that the world is 

15 getting hotter, and the animals are going to die,

16 and they are dying. 

17 And I think about, now, going back to my 

18 job in research, and it doesn't seem like the 

19 right thing to do anymore. I feel like it's a 

20 matter of putting a Band-Aid on, when we're 

21 solving health problems that are caused by things 

22 that we do, that we can prevent, that we have the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
150

1 technology to prevent today, but we choose not 

2 to. But this plan is a good start. It doesn't 

3 go far enough, but it's a good start.

4 So that's why I'm speaking in support of 

5 it, because we need to do something, and we need 

6 to do it now, before things get worse. They're 

7 already bad enough. So we have the technology, 

8 so let's do it.

9 Thank you.

10 MS. NOONAN: Next up we have Anne Cohan 

11 and Rich Andrews. Is Rich Andrews in the room? 

12 Okay.

13 MS. COHAN: Hi. My name -- my name is 

14 Anne Kelly Cohan, and I'm here repre---

15 MS. NOONAN: Spell your name. Spell.

16 MS. COHAN: Oh, all of them? A-n-n-e K17 e-l-l-y C-o-h-a-n. Spell-check always corrects 

18 it to E-n, so be careful of that. I'm here 

19 representing myself, my children, my 

20 grandchildren, and all of your children, 

21 grandchildren, and even those not yet born. 

22 As a child growing up in New York City, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
151

1 I'm old enough to remember the coal trucks 

2 rumbling down the street, and they would come and 

3 use a shoe to dump coal into our cellar. I also 

4 remember, as a very small children, how dirty the 

5 house would get, and my mom would be dusting it 

6 every day, because of the black soot that was on 

7 the furniture. And then we'd, of course, shake 

8 the rag outside. And as a small child, I never 

9 realized that we were part of the problem, that 

10 it wasn't just the dirty street or the cars 

11 rolling by, but it was the fact that we were 

12 using coal to heat our house.

13 I lived through the hippie years, as some 

14 of you in here did, and we thought we were going 

15 to change the world, and then came along Jimmy 

16 Carter, who really understood what was going on, 

17 that we needed to stop driving the Cadillacs and 

18 stop being less dependent on fossil fuels. But 

19 then he didn't get reelected and we elected some 

20 Pollyanna presidents who, you know, growth in 

21 industry, and I know that's good, because I was 

22 part of the problem, too. I didn't have a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
152

1 Cadillac, but I know I was a part of the problem.

2 Then I moved to the Florida Keys and I 

3 lived there for 40 years, and we had such clean 

4 air coming off the ocean and the bay, and we swam 

5 in clean waters, and yet, there I was, using my 

6 septic tank to fill the limestone with waste. 

7 And it got into the surrounding waters, of 

8 course, and into our canals, and, of course, into 

9 the surrounding ocean waters, too. So, 

10 fortunately, the Keys are now all converting to 

11 toilets and sewers rather than the septic tanks, 

12 and I hope it will be soon enough.

13 Now I live in Denver, a place once known 

14 for its clean air, so clean that people would 

15 come from around the country and around the world 

16 to sit on porches and breathe in that wonderful 

17 clean air. It's raining today so you can't see 

18 it, but there's often a terrible haze over this 

19 clean, once clean city, and it comes from fossil 

20 fuels. 

21 Yes, I have been part of the problem, but 

22 I had a husband with COPD, and I watched how hard 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
153

1 it was for him to breathe. He grew up in New 

2 York City, too, breathing in the coal dust. Then 

3 he became a firefighter, and God only knows what 

4 he breathed in, the plastics and the chemicals, 

5 fighting fires, and I watched how hard it was for 

6 him to breathe.

7 Please, EPA, pass this plan. I support 

8 this plan. I support everything and anything you 

9 can do to reduce our need for fossil fuels, and 

10 fracking, I'm not even going to go there. It 

11 would take me another 20 minutes.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. ANDREWS: My name is Richard Andrews. 

14 I live in Boulder County, Colorado. What other 

15 information do you need?

16 MS. NOONAN: Spell your name. Spell your 

17 last name.

18 MR. ANDREWS: My last name is Andrews, A19 n-d-r-e-w-s. I'm a citizen of this country and 

20 I'm glad to have the opportunity to testify here 

21 today. I'm also the owner of Boulder Innovative 

22 Technologies, which is an environmental 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
154

1 engineering company, and that is my background, 

2 chemical and environmental engineering. I've 

3 worked in the nuclear industry. I also was an 

4 EPA employee in this very office, in the early 

5 '70s. So those are kind of credentials.

6 I'm here to testify on an element of 

7 these proposals that have to do with nuclear 

8 power, being, according to EPA, an acceptable 

9 alternative to fossil fuel-fired electric 

10 generation, and I can say, categorically, that is 

11 an unacceptable alternative to even consider. 

12 EPA has clearly not done any decent risk 

13 assessment in making that decision to promote 

14 that and encourage states to promote it in their 

15 implementation plants.

16 I prepared testimony in very much detail, 

17 given that I am an environmental engineering, 

18 certified and registered in this state, on air 

19 pollution modeling, from an accident or a 

20 terrorist event at a nuclear power plant. I used 

21 the Indian Point nuclear plant, just north of New 

22 York City, just a matter of 30-some miles from 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
155

1 downtown Manhattan, as a case study. That 

2 modeling used exactly the same modeling methods 

3 that is used by the Nuclear Regulatory 

4 Commission, and probably, in part, by the EPA, in 

5 doing radiological dispersion modeling and health 

6 consequence studies. That work and that modeling 

7 that I conducted showed that an event -- and the 

8 primary event that I looked at was an attack by 

9 terrorists on the spent fuel disposal, really not 

10 disposal but storage facility at that location 

11 for Unit Number 2. 

12 In such an event, the entire area of all 

13 of New York City, major parts of New Jersey, 

14 Delaware, all the way down to nearly 

15 Philadelphia, would, in fact, have to be 

16 evacuated. Keep in mind that is the financial 

17 center of this country, and we're not only 

18 talking about evacuated but permanently put out 

19 of habitable condition, and that is because of 

20 the extreme amount of Cesium-137 that would 

21 contaminate that area.

22 I used this as an example. I submitted 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
156

1 this information to the Nuclear Regulatory 

2 Commission in December of last year, as part of 

3 what they call their Waste Confidence draft, 

4 GEIS. I have with me some of the dispersion 

5 modeling maps that I will submit in detail, in 

6 writing, as part of this testimony.

7 The bottom line is take out any 

8 encouragement, out of your rules and your 

9 proposed methods to reduce carbon, any use of 

10 nuclear power. It is simply unsafe, it is 

11 economically unreasonable, as well, and it is too 

12 great a risk to put the American public at. 

13 And I ask the EPA -- are you willing to 

14 take that risk? Terrorists -- despite anything 

15 that our government does at the Department of 

16 Defense, the Department of Homeland Security, the 

17 private security services at nuclear power 

18 plants, there is no way to stop such an attack. 

19 They can do it any time, any place they choose 

20 to. You may want to deny that, but I have to say 

21 if you're denying it, you've got your head in the 

22 sand.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
157

1 So please do not, in any way, promote 

2 nuclear power as a safe, certainly not a 

3 renewable, certainly not an environmentally 

4 responsible means to meet carbon reduction.

5 Thank you.

6 MS. NOONAN: Thank you, and if you could 

7 submit your modeling for the record, there's 

8 information on how to do that, or you could just 

9 drop off the information.

10 MR. ANDREW: I know how to do it. I've 

11 done these things many times, and just hope you 

12 pay heed to it, because it is -- I consider it --

13 I mean, I did it myself, and, of course, I 

14 consider it valid, but I hope your scientists 

15 will look at it, too, and take heed.

16 MS. NOONAN: Great. Thank you very much. 

17 Okay. Coming up next we have Eva Neligh and Jean 

18 Bassett. I'm sure I've butchered at least one of 

19 those names. I apologize. And then on deck, 

20 Tatiana Maxwell and John Bullinger, if you'd like 

21 to sit at the speaker's table, in the seats 

22 behind the speaker's table.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
158

1 MS. NELIGH: Hi. I'm Eva Neligh, N-e-l2 i-g-h. All right. Thank you for having me 

3 testify today.

4 Oh beautiful for spacious skies, for 

5 amber waves of grain, for purple mountain 

6 majesties above the enameled plain. Everyone 

7 knows these lyrics, written over a century ago. 

8 If we don't do something about air pollution, 

9 we'll be singing a different tune.

10 For years, we inhaled the unfathomable 

11 sense of moral responsibility to ourselves and 

12 the land we lived on, and exhaled and 

13 internalized its purpose to us, individually. 

14 This is an American dream, and the path we follow 

15 now does not lead to such a vision. We will have 

16 fewer spacious skies and, instead, skies filled 

17 with smog that blanket our mountain majesties.

18 The new world -- what do you think of 

19 when you consider these words? Serenity? Grace? 

20 Clarity? Beauty? Nature untouched by the 

21 fingers of man? What would the Founding Fathers 

22 say to us now, as we continue to steamroll new 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
159

1 and bright initiatives to protect our land and to 

2 protect this American dream?

3 The United States of America was not 

4 founded upon the belief that its people live with 

5 little innovation and no way to uphold the health 

6 and happiness of its citizens. We should not 

7 close the doors to alternative sources of 

8 renewable clean energy. America should be at the 

9 forefront of technological improvement. The 

10 international community should look to us to lead 

11 the way to prosperity and progress, and not the 

12 other way around.

13 I support the Clean Power Plan. I work 

14 for Environment Colorado, and I basically -- I've 

15 been to a lot of towns with my family. We love 

16 to travel around the United States, and I've seen 

17 a lot of people work in power plants, not because 

18 they want to but because there is no other 

19 alternative for solar or wind, for that matter, 

20 because it's a dog-eat-dog world for those 

21 renewable energy industries.

22 So with that in mind, I want to give a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
160

1 face for youth and for students across the world, 

2 or, I guess, across the nation, for that matter, 

3 who live next to these power plants. And I've 

4 met scores of students and kids, ranging from 3 

5 years old to 15 years old, who have asthma 

6 attacks and who have to visit the emergency room 

7 almost, I guess, on a regular basis. It's not 

8 fair. It's not fair to us as kids, as the youth 

9 of this nation, and it's not fair for future 

10 generations.

11 With that in mind, I do not come to you 

12 as a professional in the coal or renewable energy 

13 industry, but I appeal to you as a concerned 

14 citizen and a youth, because this is not a 

15 problem for the future. This is a problem for 

16 now.

17 I am 19 years old and I will graduate 

18 college next year with degrees in international 

19 affairs and economics. I plead with you to take 

20 initiative and dare to consider what we could do 

21 when we open new doors to American citizens, to 

22 the next generation, and let us glimpse a world 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
161

1 not too dissimilar to the one we live in now, but 

2 with more job diversity, competitive markets, 

3 innovation, and, we hope, the certainty that our 

4 health will not be sacrificed in the name of 

5 laziness and fear from change.

6 Thank you.

7 MS. BASSETT: Thank you very much. My 

8 name is Jean Bassett. The last name is spelled B 

9 as in boy-a-s-s-e-t-t. I'm here as the next 

10 generation, as a mother, and just my concern for 

11 the future of the planet. And I have seen, from 

12 the testimonies I've heard about in the last day 

13 and a half, just the range of people who 

14 understand the magnitude of what we're facing 

15 right now with climate change. And when you have 

16 religious leaders joining scientists, joining 

17 farmers, joining people from diverse ethnic 

18 backgrounds -- you don't see that very often, 

19 that everyone is on the same page, and saying 

20 that this is something we have to address, and we 

21 need to do it now.

22 So I'm actually just keeping my -- you 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
162

1 guys have heard a lot of testimony, and my 

2 testimony is actually very short. I'm just here 

3 to say that I applaud the EPA for proposing the 

4 Clean Power Plan. This is exactly where we need 

5 to be heading, to be responsible in addressing 

6 this issue, and I just wanted you to make sure 

7 you note that the range of the diversity of the 

8 constituents who are support this. You don't see 

9 that very often in our country, where you get 

10 scientists with the religious leaders, all on the 

11 same page. So it shows you that this is the 

12 right step to take and we need to do it now.

13 Thank you.

14 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. Up next we 

15 have Tatiana Maxwell and John Bollinger.

16 MS. MAXWELL: Good afternoon and thank 

17 you for this opportunity to speak. My name is 

18 Tatiana Maxwell, which is spelled T-a-t-i-a-n-a, 

19 the last name is Maxwell, M-a-x-w-e-l-l. I am 

20 here as a private citizen and the mother of four. 

21 I currently live in Boulder, Colorado, but was 

22 born and raised in Wyoming, and spent most of my 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
163

1 life there. I'm the daughter and wife of 

2 military veterans and I'm the sister, aunt, and 

3 cousin of many who work for and benefit from the 

4 energy industry. I, myself, have worked and been 

5 an owner of a petroleum company for over 20 

6 years, and owe much of my livelihood to it. 

7 I've also been personally affected by 

8 climate change -- more frequent drought and 

9 extreme temperatures, more intense and frequent 

10 wildfires, more intense rainstorms, and reduced 

11 snowpack and water scarcity. Our company, which 

12 was based in New Orleans, and its employees were 

13 deeply affected by Hurricane Katrina in 2005. 

14 I am not here to debate the science and 

15 consequences of climate change. The world's 

16 scientists and military analysts agree that 

17 carbon emissions are a serious threat to our 

18 future and must be addressed. I am here to add 

19 my voice to those who are asking the EPA to 

20 finalize its proposed Clean Power Plan and to 

21 applaud the agency's work. 

22 The very mission of the Environmental 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
164

1 Protection Agency is heroic, to protect human 

2 health and the environment, and nothing could be 

3 more important. I have lived and traveled in 

4 countries that have weak or non-existent 

5 government programs to protect their citizens and 

6 their environment, and it is obvious to me that 

7 this protection is vital to our lives and to our 

8 economy. I've experienced the challenges of 

9 abiding by environmental regulations in our 

10 company, and I have seen the benefit from their 

11 existence, as did our employees.

12 These are not simple equations, but the 

13 futures of all our children are at stake. Power 

14 plants are the number one source of carbon 

15 pollution in the U.S. and must be regulated for 

16 the benefit of all our citizens. But we must 

17 also pay attention to the emissions created by 

18 drilling for natural gas and fracking. For many 

19 years, I have lived and recreated near the 

20 Pinedale Anticline in northwest Wyoming, one of 

21 the five largest natural gas fields in the U.S. 

22 I have watched as an area of striking natural 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
165

1 beauty, with a population of less than 2,500, has 

2 suffered from air pollution equivalent to that in 

3 Los Angeles, due to the drilling of natural gas.

4 We are a world that progresses, and while 

5 I respect the needs and desires of those who 

6 consider their livelihoods tied to the lack of 

7 air quality regulations, progress and industry 

8 will find new avenues for their skills, much as 

9 the wheelwrights for the horse and buggy found 

10 new work building wheels for Henry Ford's 

11 automobiles.

12 We all have much in common in this 

13 country. We share common dreams for health and 

14 prosperity, and the Clean Power Plan is a 

15 tremendous opportunity to move forward in that 

16 pursuit.

17 I drive a car and I want to breathe clean 

18 air. I want turn on the lights in my house and 

19 see the mountains in the distance, and clean air 

20 regulations are elemental to all of our 

21 prosperity, and I encourage the agency to 

22 continue with it.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
166

1 MR. BOLLINGER: I'm John C. Bollinger. 

2 John, J-o-h-n, Bollinger, B-o-l-l-i-n-g-e-r, from 

3 Lafayette, Colorado. I have a consulting 

4 company, ECE Engineering Services, specializing 

5 in energy efficiency analysis and mechanical 

6 engineering consulting, including DSM, demand 

7 side management. 

8 By the way, I happened to also work at 

9 the US EPA, near Research Triangle Park, just a 

10 mere 35 years ago, so it's nice to be back here 

11 in the fold for a slight few seconds. And, also, 

12 I'm definitely a concerned father. Us fathers, 

13 you've got to assume that we're concerned because 

14 we don't say it.

15 So, I know we have only about a half 

16 million comments, so I'll try to be direct and 

17 brief.

18 Overall, think the Clean Power Plan has some very 

19 good aspects in its limited scope, not that it's 

20 not very detailed, but there are important things

21 that I think must go further to achieve long-term 

22 benefits. There are three main points here, but 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
167

1 I do acknowledge short-term or even longer term, 

2 the plan can reduce atmospheric carbon, 

3 greenhouse gases, you know, the criteria of air 

4 pollutants, which you know what those are --

5 particularly nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxide, 

6 carbons, et cetera -- by means of gradually 

7 replacing the coal-burning with natural gas power 

8 plants. 

9 That part is clear and good. I praise 

10 that. There are some inherent, serious problems, 

11 as I see it, that I'd like to address, that can 

12 be exacerbated by the Clean Power Plan, and could 

13 potentially override the intended benefits. 

14 First, the greenhouse gas emissions could 

15 potentially and actually increase this plan, the 

16 Clean Power Plan, laid in power plants. Fugitive 

17 methane emissions are not yet accurately measured 

18 in regards to whole lifecycle atmospheric 

19 emissions. Is it 3 percent? Nine percent? It 

20 makes a big difference, of the total gas 

21 production.

22 The total cycle is the extraction, the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
168

1 distribution, the processing, and the final 

2 combustion, not just the combustion at the power 

3 plant, which I think the Clean Power Plan 

4 concentrates on, from what I know. And, of 

5 course, there are other problems with hydraulic 

6 fracturing of the gas and oil industry, in 

7 regards to surface and underground pollution, 

8 that is very hard to measure, especially on the 

9 ground.

10 Second, the insufficiently regulated oil 

11 and gas industry will expand to produce even 

12 cheaper natural gas prices, at the expense of our 

13 environment. A major result that may not often 

14 be talked about is that whenever we stifle the 

15 essential growth in our energy efficiency and 

16 renewable energy implementations -- I've worked 

17 in this industry for many decades, and it just 

18 works that way. If fossil fuels are cheap, 

19 energy efficiency goes on the back burner, 

20 period. Of course, incentives do help.

21 Third, the expansion of the gas oil 

22 extraction as a result of the power plant 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
169

1 expansions, will not necessarily lead to a 

2 reduction in coal extraction, nor even in global 

3 greenhouse gases and other related pollutant. 

4 The coal mining, as well as oil extraction, 

5 operations can simply export their excess 

6 capacity to the world's hungry industrial 

7 markets, instead of used in power plants. So it

8 will reduce in our power plants but to 

9 necessarily in the world.

10 Just briefly on solutions, and then I'm 

11 taking too long. The Clean Power Plan must 

12 enable the EPA to better develop regulations and 

13 these three growing problems, somehow. First, 

14 the EPA must support accurate measurements of 

15 total future methane emissions and the whole 

16 lifecycle process, as well as the total external 

17 costs of all pollution from increased natural gas 

18 and other fossil fuel production and consumption. 

19 I know it's hard to estimate total general cost 

20 to the environment, but that is a big, big 

21 problem.

22 Second -- my time is up? Okay. Should I 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
170

1 just stop? I have this written down, and I'll 

2 submit it to you.

3 MS. NOONAN: Yes. Please submit it at 

4 the registration desk.

5 MR. BOLLINGER: Okay. Thank you.

6 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. I think at this 

7 point we're going to take a short break. Is 

8 there anyone in the audience who either would 

9 like to speak and has not yet registered or 

10 thinks that they have a spot? Okay. Just hold 

11 on one second and we'll make sure we get the --

12 we'll be right back.

13 [Inaudible comment.]

14 MS. NOONAN: Sure. Come on up, and sir? 

15 If you could turn your mic on and just state your 

16 name and go ahead with your testimony.

17 MR. CASTELLINO: My name is Robert 

18 Castellino. C-a-s-t-e-l-l-i-n-o. I'm a 

19 professional photographer and a self-published 

20 author. Colorado has been my home for 40 years. 

21 I love Colorado because of its natural beauty, 

22 immense diversity, and outdoor lifestyle. I 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
171

1 spent more than 3 of those years camping in the 

2 wilds of Colorado. Over those years, I've 

3 photographed, written, and published five books 

4 about Colorado, each with a chapter designated to 

5 the ecology of commerce.

6 As a result, I have witnessed and 

7 recorded significant visual changes and physical 

8 environmental degradation to Colorado's sensitive 

9 and fragile ecology due to the onslaught of the 

10 global climate crisis. It concerns me and 

11 saddens me deeply. Burning coal to electrify 

12 heat and cool our homes, government operations, 

13 institutions, and businesses is exacerbating the 

14 problem.

15 In 2010, the EPA itself recorded there 

16 were a total of 454 U.S. power plants that use 

17 coal to generate at least 95 percent of their 

18 electricity. Those plants emitted 1.7 trillion 

19 metric tons of CO2 into the air. That's a lot of 

20 pollution. In Colorado alone, for the year 2012, 

21 coal plant emissions were approximately 35 

22 million metric tons, equivalent to the emissions 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
172

1 of 6.7 million cars. Reducing power plant 

2 emissions 35 percent nationwide over the next 15 

3 years would be the equivalent of taking 350 

4 million gas-powered automobiles off the road.

5 Some of the effects and outcomes driving 

6 the global climate crisis in Colorado are warming 

7 in longer springs and falls and shortened winters 

8 with lower and average snowpack, creating water 

9 shortages across the West; melting glaciers in 

10 Colorado, affecting stable, long-term water 

11 supplies of dense populations along the Front 

12 Range; extended droughts, like the one affecting 

13 the southeast portion of our state, estimated to 

14 be three times worse than the Dust Bowl era of 

15 the 1930s. 

16 Extensive vast tracts of pine forests are 

17 being decimated by the pine and spruce beetles. 

18 Their life cycles two times each season as a 

19 result, and that's happening across all of North 

20 America. 

21 We experience more and frequent forest 

22 fires that burn hotter and thoroughly destroying 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
173

1 our homes, land, diverse and wild ecology, and 

2 ecotourist-based economy. We have extreme 

3 weather events like the out-of-season flood of 

4 September 2013, affecting an area of 4,500 square 

5 miles, destroying 485 miles of road, damaging 120 

6 bridges, plus 1,882 homes were destroyed, with 

7 226,000 households disrupted. The cost -- $2.5 

8 billion and rising. All these are drawing an 

9 exact toll and cost and that cannot be enumerated 

10 in actual dollars and cents, nor in the terms of 

11 the decrease in the quality of our lives, other 

12 species, and the planet. 

13 Let's look at the bright side for a 

14 minute, though, at least from an economic 

15 perspective. In 2008, Businessweek's website 

16 report the top 25 coal producers had a combined 

17 revenue of $349 billion in 2007. Then, let's 

18 just redistribute 30 percent of those revenues, 

19 or $105 billion, to the renewable energy sector 

20 of the economy over the next 15 years. Those 

21 dollars would equate to the new investment in 

22 infrastructure. It will create sustainable 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
174

1 business and jobs in the energy efficiency, wind, 

2 solar, geothermal, solar thermal, hydroelectric, 

3 and biomass energy businesses. 

4 The hard dollar saved after the initial 

5 investments and amortized into the short run 

6 would revitalize American communities and put 

7 hard-earned dollars back in the pockets of the 

8 average and lower-income wage earners over the 

9 long haul. The Clean Power Plan cost to the 

10 taxpayer -- absolutely nothing. It's a real 

11 stimulus package that will go the distance 

12 towards creating economic recovery that is truly 

13 sustainable. 

14 Rolling back greenhouse gases 17 percent 

15 by 2020 compared to 2005 levels is good, but it 

16 is too far in the distant future for a task that 

17 needed to have been done today. For all it's 

18 worth, the Clean Power Plan proposed by the EPA 

19 is a great first step that will benefit ours and 

20 future generations.

21 Thank you very much.

22 MS. OLSON: Hi, yeah. I'm Sherry Olson, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
175

1 O-l-s-o-n, and I'm an atmospheric chemist, 

2 volunteering at national center in Boulder, 

3 Colorado, and I'm here to express my support of 

4 EPA's effort to reduce carbon pollution from 

5 power plants, setting a strong standard under the 

6 Clean Air Act.

7 Power plants are one of the largest 

8 sources of carbon emissions in the United States 

9 today, and these standards are a critical step to 

10 reducing emissions and reducing the effect of 

11 global warming, and will contribute to a 

12 transition to cleaner electrical power.

13 I urge you to fully capitalize on this 

14 historical opportunity to strengthen emission 

15 reductions target in a final rule, and encourage 

16 your leadership, by states, to include a 

17 significant role in renewable energy and energy 

18 efficiency in their compliance plan. 

19 I believe that we have an obligation to 

20 protect our children and the future generations 

21 from the effects of climate change, and by 

22 addressing its causes and impacts. I urge you to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
176

1 work quickly and strengthen and finalize strong 

2 standards for new and existing power plants by 

3 June 2015.

4 Thank you so much.

5 MS. NOONAN: Ms. Olson, could you 

6 register as a speaker with the --

7 MS. OLSON: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

8 MS. NOONAN: -- just so we know, and we 

9 have you in the count.

10 MS. OLSON: Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

11 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Okay. Daniel 

12 Holmes and Julie Buck up next, followed by Thomas 

13 Walch and Suzann Thomas.

14 [Inaudible comment.]

15 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Go ahead. Push the 

16 button there and start out by saying your --

17 spelling your name.

18 MS. BUCK: My name is Julie Buck, J-u-l19 i-e B-u-c-k. Thank you to the EPA for the 

20 opportunity to speak in a public setting.

21 My name is Julie Olson Buck and I'm a 

22 stay-at-home mom, a woman of faith, and an active 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
177

1 community volunteer. My personal reasons for 

2 being here today are sitting behind me, my 4-

3 year-old son, Joshua, and my 10-year-old 

4 daughter, Ashley, and a livable future that I 

5 hope for them.

6 I could tell you many of the ways that 

7 climate change has impacted our live and the 

8 lives of all those that call Colorado home. 

9 There are many, from floods to dying forests to 

10 depleting snowpack to severe drought to forest 

11 fires, but today I'm going to speak about a 

12 health impact of climate change that you may not 

13 be aware of.

14 I have multiple sclerosis. More people 

15 have multiple sclerosis in Colorado than in any 

16 other state in the country. In fact, in 

17 Colorado, 1 in 550 people have multiple 

18 sclerosis. You heard that correctly -- 1 in 550. 

19 How does my MS relate to climate change? Well, 

20 it has to do with temperature. You might not 

21 know that one very common symptom of MS is the 

22 inability to tolerate heat. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
178

1 People with MS don't simply feel hotter 

2 than other people -- warm temperatures can 

3 actually cause or worsen MS symptoms. These 

4 include blurred vision; numbness, tingling or 

5 pain in extremities; vertigo, difficulty walking; 

6 reduced mental capacity and clarity; and 

7 debilitating fatigue.

8 According to the National MS Society, it 

9 only takes a difference of one-quarter to one10 half degree change in the body temperature to 

11 worsen symptoms. Hotter temperatures caused by 

12 climate change are becoming more and more 

13 frequent. This means that worsening MS symptoms 

14 are also becoming more and more frequent. Hotter 

15 temperatures are a direct result of the carbon 

16 pollution being put into our atmosphere, 40 

17 percent of which are generated by power plants in 

18 the U.S. Forty percent.

19 Not all people with MS work inside air20 conditioned office buildings. Imagine those with 

21 MS working outside in construction or road work, 

22 as lifeguards or electrical line workers, as 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
179

1 police officers or street vendors, concession 

2 workers at ballgames, landscapers, surveyors, 

3 park rangers, camp counselors, tree trimmers, 

4 sewer line workers, firefighters, window washers, 

5 miners, loggers, valets, roofers, sanitation 

6 workers, farmers, dog walkers, or recreational 

7 guides, or even a stay-at-home mom trying to play 

8 outside with her kids during the day.

9 Imagine trying to do your work, whatever 

10 it may be, with your usual MS symptoms. Imagine 

11 it getting worse on hot days. Imagine the number 

12 and intensity of hot days increasing. Imagine 

13 having your vision go blurry as a direct result 

14 of the temperature. Imagine worrying about 

15 keeping your job as you repeatedly ask for breaks 

16 or time off, or leaving your job entirely.

17 Even for those with MS that do work in 

18 air-conditioned office buildings, a short walk 

19 from car to office in extreme heat can require a 

20 recovery time several times greater than the time 

21 they spent outside. I know. For me, a short 

22 walk down the street with my dog during the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
180

1 middle of the day, can mean extreme fatigue or 

2 requiring a nap of around an hour. 

3 When worsening MS symptoms occur, the 

4 people experiencing them do a whole lot less --

5 less working, less volunteering, less caring for 

6 family members, less living. Higher temperatures 

7 mean more disability and less productivity, with 

8 subsequent impacts on the economy and personal 

9 finance.

10 Some people might say that MS is my 

11 problem, not a power plant problem. Yes, people 

12 with MS are more affected by heat than others 

13 might be, but climate change has brought steadily 

14 hotter temperatures year by year, making life 

15 more difficult for people with MS. Climate 

16 change means I feel worse. My cousin with MS 

17 feels worse. One in 550 Coloradans feel worse. 

18 An estimated 350,000 people affected by MS in the 

19 United States feel worse.

20 Reductions in the amount of carbon 

21 emissions from power plants will have a positive 

22 impact on the lives of those living with MS, now 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
181

1 and into the future. The EPA should finalize its 

2 proposed Clean Power Plan.

3 Thank you for your time.

4 MS. NOONAN: Turn off your mic and turn 

5 yours on, and say your name and spell it please.

6 MR. BEIGLE: Hi. My name is Garrett 

7 Beigle. It's G-a-r-r-e-t-t B-e-i-g-l-e. I'm a 

8 student at Metro State here in Denver. About 97 

9 percent of studies by climate scientists have 

10 implicated humanity in climate change. Unless 

11 you have the credentials, it is daft to dispute 

12 their findings, as you're not qualified to do so.

13 Every day in a science journal, magazine, 

14 or website, I see the grim consequences of 

15 climate change -- floods, fires, extreme storms, 

16 droughts, acidification of the ocean, extinction, 

17 and so on. Climate change has already cost 

18 billions and will cost billions more in the 

19 future. We cannot afford to wait for change 

20 because the fossil fuel industry does not want to 

21 recognize reality, because doing so will, and 

22 already has, plundered our future.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
182

1 As such, I'm in support of this rule. 

2 Thank you.

3 MS. NOONAN: Mr. Walch, and Suzann 

4 Thomas?

5 MR. WALCH: Good afternoon. I'm Thomas 

6 Walch, that's W-a-l-c-h. I'm the General Manager 

7 of Grand Valley Rural Power Lines. We're a small 

8 distribution utility over in Grand Junction, on 

9 the other side of the Rockies. I'm also a board 

10 member of the Colorado Rural Electric 

11 Association, but I want to point out that I'm not 

12 speaking on their behalf.

13 I've seen a lot of the powder blue tee14 shirts saying "I heart clean air," and I wanted 

15 to let you know we heart clean air, too. We like 

16 renewable energy and energy efficiency. At our 

17 utility, it's more than just a tee-shirt. Last 

18 year, almost 25 percent of our energy came from 

19 renewable resources. We're well on track to 

20 exceed 30 percent by 2020. That's one of the 

21 best marks in the state of Colorado, and I think 

22 it's one of the leaders in the nation. By our 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
183

1 actions, by our investments, we've demonstrated 

2 that we support clean air. 

3 Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that we 

4 can support the Clean Power Plan the way it's 

5 currently written. We think we've identified 

6 some flaws in it, and we'd like to see those 

7 addressed so that we can support it. You'll see a 

8 lot of detail about it in the written comments, 

9 but I want to hit some of the high points.

10 I think that the plan's building blocks 

11 use some flawed assumptions. The 6-percent 

12 improvement in heat rates -- I haven't heard of a 

13 generator anywhere that can say that they can do 

14 even 1 percent. Six percent is extremely 

15 aggressive. I think the 70-percent ramp-up of 

16 capacity of natural gas-combined cycle plants, 

17 it's not attainable. 

18 In many instances, the air permits that 

19 we have are limited to a 20-percent capacity, 

20 and, besides that, if you ramp their capacity up 

21 that much, it's not available to serve as backup 

22 for intermittent renewable resources that don't 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
184

1 generate electricity when the sun is not shining 

2 or the wind is not blowing.

3 I think that the Clean Power Plan, the 

4 way it's written is flawed because it punishes 

5 states like Colorado, and generators like Xcel 

6 Energy, who is our wholesale power provider, for 

7 being aggressive and reducing carbon emissions. 

8 We don't get credit for all the things that we've 

9 done before 2012, and that just doesn't seem 

10 right.

11 I think the plan is flawed because the 

12 interim targets are too aggressive. This not 

13 only requires the agency to rush into this rule14 making, it's going to be really difficult for the 

15 states. They're going to be rushed into their 

16 implementation plans.

17 You know, with the Affordable Care Act, 

18 the American public has seen what can happen when 

19 a drastic change is imposed on a significant 

20 segment of the economy in a relatively short 

21 period of time. With the Clean Power Plan, it's 

22 a bigger change to a bigger part of the economy, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
185

1 in a shorter period of time. 

2 This isn't a recipe for success. When 

3 you think about it, the overall result of the 

4 plan is a reduction of global emissions of less 

5 than 2 percent by 2030. I think it's clear that 

6 it's more symbolic than it is substantive. That 

7 being the case, I think it's more important to do 

8 it right than to do it fast. The thing is, you 

9 have the support of the American people. You 

10 don't have to rush it. If you take your time and 

11 do it right, you'll keep that support.

12 I think the biggest flaw of the plan is 

13 that it hasn't adequately addressed some of the 

14 cost implications. From a direct cost 

15 standpoint, it can't be argued that coal is 

16 cheapest. When you phase coal out, power bills 

17 go up. When you increase the demand for natural 

18 gas, as the plan contemplates, the cost of that 

19 is going to go up. That's going to directly hit 

20 utility bills, but it's also going to indirectly 

21 hit the cost of every product or service that 

22 relies on electricity, and it's going to be a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
186

1 regressive tax that hits low-income people the 

2 hardest. 

3 Colorado used rate caps to lessen the 

4 impact when it took steps to reduce carbon 

5 emissions. I think that's a great model for the 

6 agency to follow.

7 You know, the agency is hearing from a 

8 lot of folks. I urge you to listen to the folks 

9 that have balanced responsibility and balanced 

10 experience, like the state of Colorado, that's 

11 been successful in introducing, in reducing 

12 carbon emissions, like Xcel Energy, who has been 

13 a leader, and like consumer and business groups 

14 that are going to bear the costs of the 

15 regulations.

16 Thank you.

17 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. You can stay 

18 seated, and you can turn off your button. Thank 

19 you.

20 MS. THOMAS: Hi. I'm Suzann, S-u-z-a-n21 n, Thomas. I know I'm supposed to be here 

22 because I found a parking spot.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
187

1 [Laughter.]

2 MS. THOMAS: And I think that it's also 

3 very telling that we're having this discussion 

4 while the area in Lyons, Colorado is just holding 

5 on by their fingernails, to not have another huge 

6 flood that ruined their just-rebuilt businesses 

7 and homes. 

8 I'm also -- I think it's important to say 

9 that I have Native American blood in me, and I'm 

10 very, very grateful that I do, and it was very 

11 sweet to turn the corner and see a big old 

12 handmade star quilt, right there, because I think 

13 -- I'm from Texas, Austin, Texas, and I've lived 

14 in Colorado for 20 years, but it's not -- you 

15 know, power plants are the number one source of 

16 carbon pollution in the United States, but this 

17 is bigger than the United States. 

18 This is what Lakota call [speaks Lakota], 

19 which is Mother Earth, which is extremely 

20 important, and I don't understand -- it is very 

21 hard for me to understand why more people don't 

22 see the superstorms, the flooding, the drought, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
188

1 the temperature changes, the ocean rising, the 

2 polar cap melting. 

3 I mean, how much more information do we 

4 have to have, and how hard is it going to be to 

5 ignore all this? I mean, you're going to have to 

6 give up your day jobs and just, we're just going 

7 to have to use all the energy that we can muster 

8 to ignore all the signs, but this is very, very 

9 critical.

10 So, I'm not a scientist and I won't speak 

11 like one because I'm not able to, but I am a 

12 citizen of this world, and I'm a grandmother, and 

13 I'm a mother. Last week I was in Miami, sitting 

14 with my 3- and 6-year-old grandgirls, and they 

15 wanted to watch The Lorax, and I didn't know if I 

16 could get through it. And I didn't with dry 

17 eyes, and you're like, "Gigi, what's wrong?" And 

18 in my head the answer that's just resounding is 

19 so many things are wrong, and the biggest wrong 

20 is that people are ignoring this, and the signs 

21 are huge.

22 So what I said to them was, "You know, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
189

1 it's okay. It's like the Lorax. We're going to 

2 get it." And my hope and my prayer and my 

3 fingers are crossed that we get it really soon, 

4 because I think it may be too late. I really 

5 think it may have happened -- it should have 

6 happened yesterday.

7 So I'm just here as -- you know, go watch 

8 The Lorax. Watch it with your children and your 

9 grandchildren. Watch it with your next door 

10 neighbor kids, but watch it, because that's where 

11 we're at, and we need more people who will just 

12 stand up and speak for the trees, and the oceans, 

13 and the mountains, and the star fields, and the 

14 air we breathe, and the water we drink.

15 Oh, I just got through dancing at a sun 

16 dance in the middle of nowhere in South Dakota, 

17 with Lakota Sioux, and I could see the stars 

18 because there were absolutely no artificial 

19 lights, so it looks like you could just reach up 

20 and touch this blanket of stars. And I want us 

21 to keep that. I want us to keep our clean air, 

22 and I want our children and our grandchildren to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
190

1 not be scared to death like I am right now, about 

2 the future of the whole entire planet.

3 There's no reason. We have so many 

4 renewable resources and clean energy available to 

5 us right now, that we are kind of being banned, 

6 in certain ways, from using. I mean, I’m a 

7 retiree and I have solar panels on my house, and 

8 if I can do it, so many people can do it.

9 I drove here in a car that is very 

10 dependent on the oil and gas industry, but I'm 

11 about to buy a Smart Car, because it has 50 miles 

12 to the gallon, it's made out of what Jeep roll 

13 bars are made out of, and I can tool around town 

14 in that. So there are all kinds of options, but 

15 they need to be more available to us, to the 

16 lower-income people, to the middle America, to 

17 all of us, and we need to realize that, I think 

18 scraping the bottom of the oil and gas barrel is 

19 futile. 

20 It's all about greed and money. I mean, 

21 I'm sorry to say but it just is, and on a dead 

22 planet, there are no jobs. There just aren't, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
191

1 and money would be pretty meaningless, I think.

2 The Keystone XL Pipeline comes to mind. 

3 It's like they keep talking about jobs, and, in 

4 reality, there are very few prominent jobs. The 

5 majority, like 90 percent of the jobs are 

6 temporary, which simply means that there will be 

7 very, very little quality assurance when they 

8 throw this pipeline in the ground and it runs 

9 through the Ogallala Aquifer, and our cleanest, 

10 most pristine farms.

11 So I ask you, you know, NOAA has given up 

12 on us adults. The National Oceanic Atmospheric 

13 Administration has given up on us, but they're 

14 hitting our babies hard to get rid of plastic 

15 bags, to recycle, you know, to just be stewards 

16 of this earth. So I ask you, let's give them a 

17 chance to grow up and do that.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Thank you both. 

20 The last speaker before the break will be Ross 

21 Cunniff.

22 MR. CUNNIFF: Good afternoon. My name is 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
192

1 Ross Cunniff. That's C-u-n-n-i-f-f. I am a Fort 

2 Collins city councilmember, but I'm speaking only 

3 on my own behalf today. 

4 My father was born and raised in 

5 Colorado. Although he left Colorado to serve in 

6 the U.S. Army, we returned frequently in the 

7 1960s and 1970s to visit our family here. I have 

8 vivid memories of Colorado from those days. I 

9 remember startling blue skies, fast-running 

10 mountain streams, tree-covered hillsides, and 

11 snow-capped mountaintops. 

12 My wife and I moved to Colorado in 1987, 

13 to raise our family. Although many more people 

14 lived there by then, the character of the state 

15 was much the same as I remembered it, and we 

16 delighted in sharing it with our daughters as 

17 they grew up.

18 However, the past decade has seen 

19 significant changes for the worse. Colorado is 

20 not the same as it was when I was a kid. The 

21 view of the Front Range is frequently obscured by 

22 haze. The mountains are now snow-capped nearly 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
193

1 as often as they used to be. Glaciers in Rocky 

2 Mountain National Park have receded. The forests 

3 have been devastated, first by the infestation of 

4 pine beetles and then by wildfires. Drought has 

5 alternated with severe flooding impacts, the 

6 impacts of which are made worse by the newly 

7 barren hillsides. And diseases like West Nile 

8 Virus are now present in Colorado, where they 

9 never were before.

10 All of these impacts are related to the 

11 significantly warmer climate. The proof is in 

12 the numbers. The frequency and duration of 

13 record-breaking heat waves has increased 

14 dramatically. Not only that, but the intensity 

15 and length of cold spells has decreased. This 

16 has directly impacted our watershed and has led 

17 to the spread of warmer weather insects, 

18 parasites, and diseases which would not have 

19 survived the winters of the past.

20 This is not a natural disaster, or 

21 something that's just happening to us. People 

22 are the direct cause of this rapid climate 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
194

1 change. Our carbon dioxide emissions continue to 

2 increase, creating a visible blanket around the

3 planet, which keeps heat from escaping into 

4 space. 

5 On the Fort Collins City Council, we 

6 spend significant time and money dealing with the 

7 effects of climate change. We had to add water 

8 treatment stages to deal with ash from the 2012 

9 High Park fire. We, along with most communities 

10 in Larimer County, are still working to recover 

11 from the 2013 flash floods. We spend time, 

12 energy, and money on policies and procedures 

13 regarding West Nile Virus in our community. 

14 Although we have an aggressive climate action 

15 plan, we understand that we only control a small 

16 part of the United States carbon dioxide 

17 production.

18 This is why we need the Federal 

19 Government to help. We need to act together, as 

20 a unified country, and rapidly and dramatically 

21 reduce our production of carbon dioxide. Coal22 fired power plants are the biggest single 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
195

1 producers of CO2. The proposed EPA regulations 

2 are a necessary start to our action.

3 My wife and I recently discovered that we 

4 are soon to become grandparents. This has made 

5 my resolve to address climate change that much 

6 more passionate. I want my grandchildren, and 

7 all of our grandchildren, to enjoy the same 

8 beautiful earth that we enjoyed. Please help 

9 make that happen.

10 Thank you.

11 MS. NOONAN: And with that we're going to 

12 take a 10-minute recess, and come back after 

13 that.

14 [Recess taken from 12:58 to 1:10.]

15 AFTERNOON SESSION

16 MS. BROWN: Good afternoon. We'd like to 

17 go ahead and get started again for the afternoon 

18 session -- and it's not working? Awesome. Let me 

19 just do it like this for now, since the 

20 technology is not quite cooperating.

21 My name is Amanda Curry Brown and I'm one 

22 of the chairs for today's public hearing. I am 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
196

1 from the EPA Office of Air Quality, Planning, and 

2 Standards in North Carolina.

3 On the panel with me today are David 

4 Risley and Ryan Sims, both from the Office of 

5 Atmospheric Programs in Washington, D.C.

6 We are here today to listen to your 

7 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

8 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

9 of these proposed rules of June 2, 2014.

10 Power plants are the largest source of 

11 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

12 roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

13 emissions. 

14 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

15 Power Plan for existing power plants. This 

16 proposal consists of two main parts: state17 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

18 power plants and guidelines to help states 

19 develop their plans for meeting those goals. 

20 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

21 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

22 choose what goes into their plans, to show how 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
197

1 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

2 their goals by 2030.

3 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

4 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

5 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

6 set emission limits for two groups of power 

7 plants: those that make a physical or 

8 operational changes that increases the plant's 

9 maximum achievable hourly rate of emissions, and 

10 those that replace components to such an extent 

11 that the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

12 capital costs of an entirely new comparable 

13 facility. If you would like more details on 

14 these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

15 available near the registration desk.

16 Today's hearing is one of four public 

17 hearings across the country this week on the two 

18 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

19 in each of the hearings, and I'd like to thank 

20 each of you for taking time out of your day to 

21 join us and sharing your comments.

22 We have a lot of people signed up to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
198

1 speak today, and we want to hear from all of 

2 them, so before we get started, I'd like to go 

3 through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 

4 that will help make today's hearing run smoothly, 

5 so you all could just bear with me. I know some 

6 of you have heard this several times. We'll go 

7 through it one more.

8 First, be sure that you have checked in 

9 at the registration desk, even if you are not 

10 planning to speak today, and if you signed up to 

11 speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 

12 you're here, please step out to the registration 

13 desk and let the EPA staff know that you've 

14 arrived.

15 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

16 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

17 or Room B. This is Room A. You should check now 

18 to make sure you're in the right room and if 

19 you're not, this is a good time to switch. 

20 If you are not speaking this afternoon 

21 and the room gets crowded, there are two 

22 additional rooms set up where you can watch the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
199

1 hearing on video, and there is also a 

2 simultaneous hearing going on in Room B. Our 

3 staff at the registration desk can direct you to 

4 one of those rooms.

5 Here's how the hearing will work today. I 

6 will call up speakers in pairs. When your name 

7 is called, please come to the podiums at the 

8 front of the room. When I call you to speak, 

9 please state your name and spell it for the court 

10 reporter. Your comments will be transcribed and 

11 included in the record of comments on the 

12 proposed rule.

13 Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 

14 comments. We have a light to help you know how 

15 much time you have left to speak. When the light 

16 turns from green to yellow, that means you have 1 

17 minute remaining. When it turns red, that's a 

18 signal to wrap up your testimony. The light will 

19 flash red and beep when you have spoken for 5 

20 minutes, and that's when it's time to stop. When 

21 you've finished speaking, please remain at the 

22 table until the person next to you has completed 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
200

1 his or her testimony. 

2 We are here to listen to you today. 

3 However, a panel member may ask you a question to 

4 clarify your comments. After each pair of 

5 speakers has finished, I will call up the next 

6 pair of speakers, and so on, until we get through 

7 the list of registered speakers for this session.

8 If you have brought a written copy of 

9 your testimony, please give that to the staff at 

10 the registration desk before you leave today. 

11 Because of the large number of people who 

12 have signed up to speak, and to be fair to 

13 everyone, we're going to have to strictly enforce 

14 the 5-minute limit. If you have additional 

15 comments you would like to make, you can submit 

16 them in writing. Let me assure you that EPA 

17 gives just as much consideration to comments we 

18 receive in writing as we do to comments we 

19 receive at public hearings like this one. If you 

20 have more to say, please submit it, and your 

21 comments will be reviewed.

22 There is still plenty of time to get 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
201

1 written comments in and there are comment cards 

2 available at the registration desk. Comments 

3 must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 

4 put any written comments submitted today in the 

5 official docket for the proposed rule. 

6 Instructions for submitting written comments in 

7 other ways are available on the materials table 

8 near the registration desk.

9 We're scheduled to go until 8 p.m. today. 

10 We'll take short breaks throughout the day, as 

11 needed. This session is scheduled to break at 

12 five, and may break earlier if there are gaps 

13 between speakers.

14 If you have any questions during the day, 

15 please see the staff at the registration desk and 

16 somebody will try to help you.

17 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

18 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

19 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

20 views in the audience, and we want to hear from 

21 all of you. So we can do that, and to be fair to 

22 everyone, we ask that everyone listen quietly. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
202

1 Even applause can slow things down, and we want 

2 to hear from everyone who has signed up to speak.

3 And if any of you have a cell phone with 

4 you, if could put it on vibrate or silent, that 

5 would be excellent, and kind of help things move 

6 along.

7 Thank you again for taking the time to 

8 share your comments with EPA proposed rule, and 

9 with that, we can get started.

10 The first pair of speakers are Rick 

11 Blotter and Steve Tomac. Mr. Blotter, you can go 

12 ahead and start.

13 MR. BLOTTER: Good morning. My name is 

14 Rick Blotter, B-l-o-t-t-e-r. I appreciate your 

15 taking the time to listen to my testimony. Thank 

16 you.

17 I live southeast of here, in central 

18 Elbert County. I taught and coached in the 

19 public schools for the better part of my life. 

20 My wife and I raised our two daughters in 4-H and 

21 country living. Now my daughters, grandchildren, 

22 and my great-grandchild enjoy visiting our farm, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
203

1 where the water is clean and the air is fresh. 

2 We originally moved from Aurora, closer to 

3 Denver, upon the recommendation of our daughter's 

4 pediatrician, to get her away from the smog. As 

5 a teacher and coach, I was amazed at the number 

6 of children who relied on inhalers to reduce the 

7 symptoms of asthma, to make it through a workout 

8 or a stressful situation.

9 I appreciate the attempt to tighten air

10 pollution standards, but I'm opposed to the rules 

11 as they're written. They must be must tougher. 

12 They must reduce greenhouse gases. We need a 

13 Clean Power Plan that must reduce the use of 

14 fossil fuels in favor of renewables, 

15 conservation, and efficiency. I ask this of you 

16 for the children of the planet.

17 We need greater reduction of greenhouse 

18 gas emissions than the 30 percent suggested by 

19 2030. We should go for at least 40 percent. We 

20 must include the total life cycle of emissions, 

21 and include greenhouse, gas-fired power plants. 

22 The rule should include taking into account for 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
204

1 all the methane leakage during production, 

2 processing, and transmission of natural gas, and 

3 should include flaring at well pads.

4 Natural gas is not the solution to our 

5 climate problems. The rules should set absolute 

6 reduction targets for total greenhouse emissions 

7 for each state. States should not be allowed to 

8 average their emissions. Cap and trade doesn't 

9 work. Let's make a difference here. Make this 

10 count.

11 My research questions the safety of 

12 natural gas exploration, production, 

13 transmission, and waste disposal, and it's 

14 specifically high-volume, slick water, hydraulic 

15 fracturing. NOAA conducted a study last year 

16 that linked concentrations of ground-level ozone 

17 on the Front Range to the fields of Weld County, 

18 the oil and gas fields. More air studies are 

19 currently being done.

20 Everyone knows the health impacts of 

21 smog, especially on the young, pregnant women, 

22 the elderly, and those with comprised immune 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
205

1 systems. The increase in the number of wells 

2 amplifies the effects, and that too many people 

3 whose lives have been disrupted physically 

4 because they live too close to wells.

5 I've got to diverge a little bit. Bear 

6 with me. Maybe you need some humor here to wake 

7 you up here for the rest or the afternoon.

8 Senator Bernie Sanders has a thing going 

9 on, on the Internet right now. It says something 

10 like this. The top five oil and gas companies 

11 alone made over $1 trillion in the last decade. 

12 A trillion bucks. He figures out that that's 

13 about $250 million a day. They're destroying the 

14 planet and getting rich doing it -- that's what 

15 Bernie says. 

16 I think it's about time we hold the 

17 fossil fuel industries accountable to future 

18 generations. Please consider the precautionary 

19 principle. We have to consider the effects of 

20 our actions. We must think ahead, think about 

21 our great-grandchildren. A Native American 

22 proverb says, "We do not inherit the planet from 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
206

1 our ancestors. We borrow it from our children." 

2 My dad always taught me, when I was a 

3 kid, if I ever borrowed anything, I'd better 

4 return it in better shape than I took it, and I 

5 hope we do that with our planet.

6 Thank you. I appreciate it.

7 MS. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Blotter. Mr. 

8 Tomac, you may begin.

9 MR. TOMAC: Thank you. Thank you for 

10 this opportunity. My name is Steve Tomac. 

11 That's spelled T-o-m-a-c. I represent Basin 

12 Electric Power Cooperative. Basic Electric is a 

13 generation and transmission cooperative based in 

14 Bismarck, North Dakota. We serve 2.9 million 

15 consumers through 136 rural electric co-ops in 

16 nine states. We have a diverse energy portfolio, 

17 including coal, wind, natural gas, and nuclear. 

18 More than a decade ago, we built our first 

19 commercial-scale wind projects in the Dakotas. 

20 Our commitment to environment comes from our 

21 board of directors and is one of our founding 

22 principles for more than 50 years.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
207

1 Roughly 77 percent of the energy Basin 

2 currently provides to its membership comes from 

3 coal. The Clean Power Plan, as proposed, could 

4 have serious impacts on affordability and 

5 reliability of electricity we provide to our 

6 members. In 2013, we recommended several areas 

7 we wanted EPA to focus on, as they developed this 

8 rule. It was in this very hearing room. You 

9 responded to some but others are on the table.

10 So, constructively, we again come before 

11 you and state that we appreciate EPA's 

12 willingness to consider a flexible approach to 

13 compliance, but, unfortunately, the Clean Power 

14 Plan raises more questions, at least for us, than 

15 it provides.

16 Given the ambiguity and apparently 

17 contradictions, we request that you extend the 

18 comment period an additional 60 days for 

19 clarification, and with that we'd also have four 

20 ideas we'd like to share with you, 

21 constructively.

22 (1) Regional plans. As a multistate

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
208

1 utility, we support a regional approach. 

2 However, what works for one state may not work in 

3 another. 

4 (2) Heat rate improvement. We designed 

5 and built our power plants to operate at maximum 

6 efficiency. There may be opportunities to 

7 improve generating efficiency where economical, 

8 but current new source review rules don't allow 

9 projects that result in higher level of 

10 efficiencies. EPA should ensure energy 

11 efficiency improvements pursued by utilities 

12 under this rule, and approved by state plans, 

13 should not trigger NSR.

14 (3) Early action. Any project that 

15 reduces CO2 emissions should be allowed for 

16 compliance, as long as those reductions are 

17 verifiable and measurable. Through our 

18 subsidiary, DGC, the Great Plains Synfuels Plant 

19 has captured and delivered more than 28 million 

20 tons of CO2 for ultimate sequestration in oil 

21 fields in southern Saskatchewan. As 

22 Administrator McCarthy said, when she visited 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
209

1 that plant in March, "This facility is about the 

2 innovation in the United States. The facility is 

3 about what we can do when we work together." EPA 

4 should permits states to include innovations like 

5 this in their plans.

6 (4) Redispatch of NGCC plants, natural 

7 gas combined cycle plants. A 70 percent capacity 

8 factor for combined cycle plants might be 

9 technically possible but permitting transmission 

10 constraints and higher maintenance costs in the 

11 energy demand all affect the plant's ability to 

12 run. EPA's own analysis indicates these plants 

13 will run an average of just 56 percent of the 

14 time. We're suggesting EPA recalculate the state 

15 targets to assume a more realistic capacity.

16 (5) Renewable energy credits. Do 

17 renewable energy credits, or so-called green 

18 tags, stay with the generating state or follow 

19 the load to the state in which the electricity is 

20 consumed? This is part of the ambiguity we're 

21 referring to. The rule appears to leave this 

22 matter up to the states. By 2016, we will have 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
210

1 more than 1,000 megawatts of wind in our system. 

2 The question of green tags will certainly impact 

3 our ability to comply with the rule in a service 

4 area.

5 (6) Finally, we have specific concerns 

6 how EPA counted Basin Electric's combined cycle 

7 generation in South Dakota. Deer Creek Station 

8 was under construction for the majority of 2012, 

9 and went operational late in that year. It ran 

10 just 90 hours during its startup phase. Yet, EPA 

11 assumed the plant has a 1-percent capacity factor 

12 for the entire year. EPA's failure to accurately 

13 account for Deer Creek Station unfairly penalizes 

14 South Dakota in determining that state's 

15 emissions targets. EPA should correct South 

16 Dakota's target to reflect that Deer Creek 

17 Station was under construction in 2012.

18 Thank you for holding this hearing and 

19 for taking the time to hear our concerns. We 

20 will be submitting formal comments before the end 

21 of the period.

22 Thank you.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
211

1 MS. BROWN: Thank you so much. Our next 

2 two speakers are William Midcap and Ron Nelsen. 

3 Mr. Midcap?

4 MR. MIDCAP: Yes.

5 MS. BROWN: If you want to go ahead and 

6 get started.

7 MR. MIDCAP: Sure. Good afternoon. My 

8 name is William Midcap, M-i-d as in David-c-a-p 

9 as in Paul. I live in Fort Morgan, Colorado, 

10 about 80 miles northeast of Denver. I'm a 

11 consumer of electricity and I serve on a rural 

12 electric board of directors. Currently I'm the 

13 President of the Colorado Rural Electric 

14 Association. CRA represents the interests of a 

15 very diverse set of folks, and the co-ops in 

16 Colorado serve over 1.3 million people.

17 I also work for Rocky Mountain Farmers 

18 Union in Denver. Rocky has 18,000 members in 

19 Colorado. Rocky Mountain Farmers Union 

20 represents family farms and ranches. Fort Morgan 

21 is like many communities in Colorado, communities 

22 that rely on agriculture. Agriculture depends on 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
212

1 many resources, including electricity made from 

2 coal. All of us in this room eat because of 

3 agriculture. Agriculture and the rural 

4 businesses that depend on agriculture cannot 

5 survive the rate increases that this proposed 

6 rule will need to initiate. The idea that we 

7 could force to shut down viable power plants that 

8 now supply much of our electricity and build 

9 compliance cycle plants is just not economically 

10 sound. 

11 Some experts that we have talked to in 

12 the utility industry have said that the rule 

13 forces Colorado to respond to a 30 percent 

14 reduction starting in 2017, and taking place 

15 before 2020, with the remaining 5 percent 

16 reduction would happen over the next 10 years. I 

17 just don't see this as being a feasible option.

18 Co-ops in Colorado have initiated many 

19 energy efficiency projects. My home co-op has 

20 recently developed a program in cooperation with 

21 the state energy office to reduce the loads of 

22 many of our dairies that we serve. Remember that 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
213

1 I said agriculture is the backbone of my 

2 community. Leprino makes cheese in my hometown, 

3 and that factor employs over 400 people. Morgan 

4 County is the home to over 40,000 cows milking. 

5 I don't know how many maids a'milking are 

6 employed, but I know it takes a lot of 

7 electricity to keep those cows productive and 

8 that plant open.

9 We also process some 3,500 head of cattle 

10 daily in Fort Morgan, and we have a 100-year-old 

11 tradition of making sugar from sugar beets. Like 

12 I said, my community, like many others in 

13 Colorado, depend on agriculture. If you close 

14 the plants that supply our electricity 

15 prematurely, and make us pay for those stranded 

16 resources and build additional plants to provide 

17 us with the electricity we need, I can assure you 

18 those costs will go up. Food costs to feed this 

19 nation will go up. Family farmers will see very 

20 little return on investment, and we will see more 

21 people moving off the land and into the cities.

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
214

1 Recently, White House Advisor John 

2 Podesta was quoted saying, "Additional actions 

3 will be added to the ag sector to make the U.S. 

4 food supply more resilient to climate change." 

5 Your guess is probably better than mine about 

6 what that means. In the same report, Energy 

7 Secretary Ernest Moniz will soon unveil a series 

8 of actions to reduce methane emissions. Now, we 

9 all know ag is responsible for a lot of methane 

10 emissions. I'm not sure what kind of series of 

11 actions he's talking about.

12 While all these measures to reduce 

13 greenhouse gases may be at the top of the list, 

14 and certainly should be, let's make sure that 

15 this does not overburden America's most important 

16 sector, and that's agriculture.

17 Thank you.

18 MS BROWN: Mr. Nelsen?

19 MR. NELSEN: My name is Ron Nelsen, R-o-n 

20 N-e-l-s-e-n. Hello and thank you for this 

21 opportunity to speak to the public record. 

22 Again, my name is Ron Nelsen, and I live 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
215

1 and own and operate a small business, Pioneer 

2 Overhead Door, in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm married 

3 to Jessica, and together with our children, ages 

4 10 and 8, we are a family of four. As a business 

5 owner, father, and Nevadan, I understand how 

6 climate disruption is impacting our economy, our 

7 communities and our environment. I know that 

8 Nevada is spending millions of dollars cleaning 

9 up after climate-induced problems instead of 

10 investing that money in small business 

11 development, worker training, and attracting more 

12 businesses to our state.

13 I also know that public health costs put 

14 a stress on business owners. The more carbon 

15 pollution we have in our atmosphere, the more 

16 people are at risk of asthma, cardiovascular 

17 disease, or even premature death. Those who are 

18 sick cannot work, which also lowers business 

19 productivity and generates additional health care 

20 costs. As a Nevadan, I've seen our state suffer 

21 from the worst drought of our time, more several 

22 wildfires, and a depletion of our water 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
216

1 resources. I love my state and I admire its 

2 beauty, and I don't want our environment in 

3 Nevada to be destroyed.

4 However, I'm pleased to report that 

5 because of recent bipartisan legislation in 

6 Nevada, 25 percent of our energy sector will be 

7 run from clean sources by 2025, and the Reid 

8 Gardner Power Plant, coal plant, the largest coal 

9 plant in Nevada, is on track to retire by 2017. 

10 This retirement is due, in large part, to a 

11 diverse group of stakeholders and community 

12 members working together with elected officials 

13 to move Nevada towards a cleaner, safer energy 

14 economy.

15 Had it not been for the engagement of the 

16 community, Senate Bill 123 likely would not have 

17 passed. The passage of SB123 reminds me of 

18 growing up in Nebraska, and sitting at a 

19 stoplight behind an idling car. I can still 

20 remember what tail exhaust looked like and 

21 smelled like in the 1960s and 1970s. Had it not 

22 been for elected officials and engaged citizens 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
217

1 coming together, we would not have made great 

2 progress in the field of fuel economy and 

3 emissions, while also stimulating our economy. 

4 Working together, problems can be fixed.

5 I am proud of my state and my fellow 

6 business owners. We are moving away from the 

7 highest polluting resources and investing in 

8 workers and small businesses that are involved in 

9 the clean energy industry.

10 There are currently more than 80 solar 

11 companies at work throughout the value chain in 

12 Nevada, employing 2,400 or so people. These 

13 companies provide a wide variety of solar 

14 products and services, ranging from solar system 

15 installations to the manufacturing of components 

16 used in photovoltaic panels.

17 More importantly, as a father of two 

18 children, I don't want my kids to be left with a 

19 sick planet. I don't want them to be sickened by 

20 a sick planet. Our young people, including my 

21 children, will be left with the burdens of 

22 climate disruption we will put on Nevada, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
218

1 America, and the world, and the costs of picking 

2 up pieces of more frequent climate disasters.

3 Now, at this crossroads of environmental 

4 policy, I am asking the Environmental Protection 

5 Agency, as a small business owner, as a father, 

6 and a Nevadan, for strong carbon standards to 

7 protect our state and the country from the worst 

8 of climate disruption, and I thank you.

9 MS. BROWN: Thank you both. I'm going to 

10 apologize for this one, because I'm trying to 

11 read handwriting and pronounce, but the next set 

12 of speakers is Chris Menges and William Green.

13 MR. GREEN: I'll Will Green and I come 

14 from Phoenix, Arizona. Thank you, EPA, for your 

15 hard work on the Clean Power Plan. I really 

16 appreciate it. 

17 Like I said, I live in Phoenix. I grew 

18 up in the Pacific Northwest, and a few winters 

19 ago I was hanging out with my mom in her kitchen, 

20 which overlooks the Puget Sound. It was an 

21 extremely beautiful spot. You know, you've got 

22 eagles swooping around all the time, massive 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
219

1 evergreen trees everywhere, and in the wintertime 

2 the tide comes up a little bit higher than other 

3 seasons, and so it's starting to lap over my 

4 parents' bulkhead a little bit, into the lawn. 

5 So I asked my mom, "What's the elevation 

6 of the kitchen here?" expecting her to say 4 or 5 

7 or 6 meters, and her response was, "One foot." 

8 My parents' kitchen is 1 foot above high tide in 

9 the wintertime, and, at this point in my life, I 

10 realize climate change is the issue of my 

11 generation, and I think of humanity, to be 

12 honest. So that's when it literally hit home to 

13 me, that this issue, the decisions we're making 

14 today are going to directly affect my family's 

15 economic security. 

16 Expanding it out to the rest of the 

17 world, you look at a country like Bangladesh. 

18 The whole place is basically a flood plain. 

19 There are island nations that are already 

20 evacuating, essentially, due to sea level rise. 

21 And consider what happened to the world 

22 economy with just subprime mortgages, brought the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
220

1 world economy to its knees. What's going to 

2 happen when waterfront property values plummet? 

3 This is an almost unbelievable level of economic 

4 impact. 

5 And so I just want to say thank you and 

6 we cannot afford inaction. The world is counting 

7 on America to lead on this issue, so let's get to 

8 it.

9 MS. BROWN: Thank you.

10 MR. MENGES: Hi. My name is Chris 

11 Menges. That's M-e-n-g-e-s. I'm a climate 

12 energy and greenhouse gas analyst representing 

13 the City of Aspen. We appreciate the opportunity 

14 to present testimony here today and to share some 

15 of the reason that the city supports EPA in

16 finalizing, implementing, and enforcing the Clean 

17 Power Plan.

18 Aspen's support is based on our 

19 obligation to protect and maintain the viability 

20 of our local and regional economy and 

21 environment, and safeguard human health. Our 

22 tourism-dependent economy relies directly on 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
221

1 sustainable climate conditions. If the impacts 

2 that we are already seeing, like reduced snowpack 

3 and stream flows and more frequent and intense 

4 drought and wildfires continue unabated, the 

5 foundation of our way of life and economic 

6 viability will be challenged and could possibly 

7 erode. 

8 Since 1940, we have already experience a 

9 2-degree Fahrenheit increase in temperature, 

10 accompanied by numerous associated impacts. A 

11 recent Aspen-specific climate assessment revealed 

12 that, like the rest of the world, the disparity 

13 of climate impacts for our region is directly 

14 tied to emissions trajectories. As such, 

15 business-as-usual emissions are unacceptable for 

16 us.

17 Accordingly, in 2004, Aspen City Council 

18 adopted CO2 reduction goals of 30 percent below 

19 2004 levels by 2020 and 80 percent below those 

20 levels by 2050. Additionally, we operate a 

21 municipal electric utility which will source 100 

22 percent of its power from renewable resources by 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
222

1 2015. While the actions that Aspen has taken on 

2 the path to meeting our own CO2 reduction goals 

3 have improved the quality of life for residents 

4 and visitors, we know that they are not enough to 

5 address climate change. For that, binding CO2 

6 limits on future and existing EGUs are necessary 

7 on a national and international scale. 

8 Aspen's support for the implementation of 

9 this rule is therefore a request that EPA help 

10 safeguard our economy and way of life. The City 

11 believes that the regulations are a necessary, 

12 flexible, achievable, fair, and cost-effective 

13 step in the right direction. Further, we are 

14 confident that the finalization of the rule would 

15 provide a greater chance of negotiating 

16 international commitments. 

17 Aspen is pleased that the U.S. Supreme 

18 Court has three times affirmed EPA's authority to 

19 regulate under the Clean Air Act. Because a 

20 state-by-state approach has been used repeatedly 

21 and successfully to reduce other pollutants, we 

22 are pleased that the EPA proposes to allow each 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
223

1 state to achieve its own emission reduction 

2 target within certain guideline and criteria, 

3 however it sees fit.

4 It is important that EPA takes steps to 

5 ensure that both the interim and 2030 targets are 

6 met in a meaningful and measurable way. For 

7 Colorado, we're confident that the 2030 target of 

8 minus-35 percent CO2 is achievable and, in fact, 

9 quite modest. If this state's renewables and 

10 efficiency deployment continue growing at current 

11 rates, we could likely surpass this goal.

12 A significant part of the City of Aspen's 

13 support for the proposed rule comes from our 

14 ongoing experience in diversifying and de15 carbonizing our electricity resources. 

16 Currently, our municipal electric utilities 

17 generation portfolio contains approximately 80 

18 percent renewables, yet we have the seventh 

19 lowest residential electricity rates in the 

20 states, amongst communities. 

21 Our rates are also lower than those of 

22 most Colorado co-ops and IOUs. Investments in 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
224

1 renewables in efficiency by former and current 

2 city leaders have not only benefitted the 

3 environment. They have also insulated us against 

4 the inherent volatilities of fossil fuel markets 

5 and prices, prices that should only increase as 

6 their true cost to society begins to be 

7 monetized.

8 I'd like to close my remarks by sharing 

9 Aspen's confidence that the Clean Power Plan 

10 would eventually save consumers money, improve 

11 public health, and reduce greenhouse gas 

12 emissions. The EPA estimates that electricity 

13 bills would be 8 percent lower by 2030 and that 

14 the plan will generate $7 in health benefits for 

15 every $1 invested, similar to America's 

16 experience with the Clean Air Act since 1970.

17 When we consider the added benefits and 

18 criteria pollutant reductions and cost avoidance 

19 from climate impact mitigation, the Clean Power 

20 Plan is a great deal at the right time, and the 

21 City of Aspen is proud to encourage its timely 

22 implementation.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
225

1 Thanks for the opportunity to share our 

2 support with you today, and for the important and 

3 beneficial work that EPA is doing.

4 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 

5 speakers are Peggy Rollins and Timothy Lindahl. 

6 You can go ahead Ms. Lindahl, I mean Ms. Rollins. 

7 I'm sorry.

8 MS. ROLLINS: My name is Peggy Rollins. 

9 I'm from Grand Junction, Colorado. It's not on? 

10 Oh. Thank you. I'm Peggy Rollins from Grand 

11 Junction, Colorado, and I'm a member of Citizens 

12 for Clean Air.

13 The new carbon pollution standards 

14 announced by the EPA represent a great beginning 

15 in the fight for national climate action. The 

16 scientific reports by the International Panel on 

17 Climate Change state that governments around the 

18 world must act boldly to reduce emissions, since 

19 they are rising at twice the rate this century 

20 than during the last decades of the 20th. So 

21 along with EPA's new Tier 3 standards to reduce 

22 smog-forming emissions from the gas-powered cars 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
226

1 and trucks, finalized in March, we have an 

2 opportunity to make our air cleaner and 

3 healthier. 

4 Besides reducing the sulfur content of 

5 the gasoline, these standards will help the 

6 emissions control work, effectively cutting 

7 nitrogen oxide from these vehicles, and, in the 

8 process, helping to prevent asthma attacks, 

9 hospital admissions, and other health problems. 

10 Additionally, they will help create more jobs 

11 over 3 years, and new equipment installation in 

12 oil refineries and the maintenance of this 

13 equipment.

14 Speaking of jobs in Colorado, the grid 

15 alternative's business, with volunteer help, is 

16 installing solar panels in the homes of people 

17 unable to afford them, allowing these homeowners 

18 to pay grid alternatives, 2 cents per kilowatt, 

19 for energy produced, and save $500 or more on 

20 electricity each year. Grid began in California 

21 and now both Coloradans and Californians have the 

22 opportunity to use clean, renewable energy to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
227

1 lower their bills and breathe cleaner air.

2 The Colorado Energy Office granted grid 

3 money to launch this new business this year. 

4 Part of this mission is to provide solar job 

5 training for workers, both paid and volunteer. 

6 So this is a business that is helping to lower 

7 carbon emissions.

8 Wind energy companies are growing in 

9 Colorado and have expectations of adding 1,00 

10 more workers in four Colorado cities, which is a 

11 definite plus to help reduce carbon pollution 

12 while also strengthening the economy. We, in 

13 Colorado, voted 10 years ago to adopt Amendment 

14 27, which established the country's first citizen 

15 initiative renewal energy standard, requiring the 

16 largest utilities to obtain 10 percent of their 

17 electric energy from clean, renewable sources by 

18 2015. 

19 In 2010, the Colorado Legislature 

20 increased the renewable energy standard to 

21 require utilities in the state to achieve 30 

22 percent renewable energy by 2020. The rural 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
228

1 legislators agreed and they've supported an 

2 increase in the rural renewable energy standard 

3 to 20 percent by 2020. In 2014, Colorado 

4 approved the strongest air pollution and methane 

5 standards for the oil and gas industry in the 

6 United States, so reducing emissions has been 

7 repeatedly supported by our voters. 

8 Power plants are responsible for 40 

9 percent, at least, of carbon pollution. In 

10 Colorado, 64 percent of our electricity still 

11 comes from coal-burning power plants, so this 

12 first federal limit on carbon pollution is an 

13 essential step toward a cleaner, healthier 

14 country. 

15 Agriculture is important to our way of 

16 life in Colorado, and for our farms, ranches, and 

17 orchards here, a high carbon pollution increases 

18 temperatures and higher ground-level ozone 

19 levels, which reduce crop yields and quality of 

20 the harvest.

21 For these, and many other reasons, we 

22 urge passage of the new federal carbon pollution 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
229

1 standards. Thank you very much for holding this 

2 hearing.

3 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Lindahl?

4 MR. LINDAHL: yes. Good afternoon. 

5 Timothy J. Lindahl, L-i-n-d-a-h-l. I'm the Chief 

6 Executive Officer and General Manager of Wheat 

7 Belt Public Power District in Sidney, Nebraska, 

8 and I'm appearing on behalf of the majority of 

9 the electrical consumers that we serve.

10 I would like to thank the EPA for 

11 allowing us the opportunity to provide our 

12 thoughts and concerns on this proposed rule. 

13 Wheat Belt is opposed to this rule in its current 

14 form because of many concerns, but some of which 

15 I'll note in the following.

16 Wheat Belt Public Power District is an 

17 at-cost rural electric distribution provider that 

18 serves approximately 5,000 electric meters in a 

19 3,600 square mile area of Nebraska. Wheat Belt 

20 receives its power from Colorado-based Tri-State 

21 Generation and Transmission, and is a member of 

22 the National Rural Electric Cooperative 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
230

1 Association.

2 The majority of our services are 

3 agricultural-based, including a large share of 

4 irrigated land for food and ethanol production. 

5 Because we provide our product at cost, every 

6 additional cost that we incur must be passed on 

7 to our customer. The nature of this model has 

8 incentivized us to naturally create energy 

9 efficiency and conservation programs over our 

10 nearly 70 years of existence, and these programs 

11 are ones that make sense to our customers, 

12 reducing their costs and not adding to it We 

13 feel that based on the diversity of electrical 

14 providers, this should continue to be our rule 

15 and not that of the EPA. 

16 Many of our customers do not have the 

17 ability to use other forms of energy in their 

18 homes and businesses because we are very rural, 

19 and therefore they rely fully on electricity to 

20 meet their needs. Raising costs on electricity 

21 would unfairly hurt those people that cannot 

22 utilize other fuels, such as natural gas, to heat 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
231

1 their homes or run their pumps. Should the price 

2 of our product go up more than that of competing 

3 fields, such as diesel fuel, it is our opinion 

4 that we would likely see more irrigation pumps 

5 burning diesel to pump their water rather than 

6 electrically, theoretically being less emissions7 friendly than our current product mix.

8 Because we are based in agriculture, our 

9 delivered product helps sequester a great deal of 

10 CO2, for which we are not given credit. A 

11 Michigan State University study indicates that 

12 for every acre of corn, 0.4 to 0.6 tons per acre13 year of CO2 equivalent are long-term sequestered. 

14 In 2012, Nebraska had nearly 1 million acres of 

15 corn in production. 

16 Add to this the creation of ethanol, as 

17 well as other crops grown with our product, and 

18 we sequester a great deal of CO2. Adversely 

19 affecting the price of our product will lead to 

20 economic choices to reduce the amount of 

21 irrigated land, offsetting much of the CO2 

22 reduction benefits that may occur from the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
232

1 regulation of our existing plants.

2 Our rural economies rely heavily on the 

3 coal industry. A University of Nebraska study 

4 shows that the existing coal industry generates 

5 $4.9 billion in economic output annually, and 

6 provides 22,800 good, full-time jobs for our 

7 state. Coal use offsets $142 million in taxes 

8 annually. Reduction in this tax revenue would be 

9 passed on to our consumers, in addition to the 

10 increased energy prices. Reducing the coal 

11 industry will have a large economic impact to our 

12 state, beyond other utility costs. Rural 

13 communities that are already struggling will be 

14 further hurt by this rule, especially with 

15 decisions that are made in other states.

16 We currently enjoy a balanced energy 

17 portfolio from Tri-State. We utilize carbon-free 

18 sources of generation, such as wind, solar, and 

19 hydro, and are increasing those all the time. We 

20 also use natural gas and coal. This system 

21 provides us with a very reliable and efficient 

22 portfolio. Although Wheat Belt's generation is 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
233

1 originated outside of the state of Nebraska, our 

2 customers will be at the mercy of another state's 

3 plan to comply with this rule. A neighboring 

4 state could take a look at these resources 

5 serving out-of-state, and utilize those to meet 

6 their requirements, passing that cost on to our 

7 customers and not those of the state.

8 This could also have unintended impacts 

9 to organized markets across state borders, giving 

10 states an unfair advantage, based on the 

11 differing requirements and differing generation 

12 mixes. 

13 Reliability is of the utmost concern with 

14 this rule. When this rule negatively impacts the 

15 reliability of the electric grid, we will be the 

16 ones responsible and held accountable, not the 

17 EPA.

18 Thank you again for the opportunity to 

19 provide these comments, and we are opposed to 

20 this rule in its current form.

21 MS. BROWN: Thank you, and you cited a 

22 couple of studies. Could you submit those to the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
234

1 docket?

2 MR. LINDAHL: I sure could.

3 MS. BROWN: Great. Thank you. Our next 

4 set of speakers are Jonathan Singer and Carol 

5 Sturman. Mr. Singer, you can go ahead.

6 MR. SINGER: Good afternoon. Thank you, 

7 members, for joining us in Colorado. My name is 

8 Jonathan Singer, and I am the Colorado House 

9 State Representative for House District 11, which 

10 covers Longmont, Niwot, Lyons, and Allenspark. 

11 Basically, if you go an hour north of here, 

12 you're there, and then if you go an hour west, 

13 towards Rocky Mountain National Park, you're also 

14 there.

15 I have the unique distinction of actually 

16 being able to represent three different types of 

17 electric power production here in Colorado. We 

18 have municipally generated, which is in Longmont. 

19 We also have Xcel Power, and then I also have a 

20 rural electric cooperative in my district, so you 

21 can imagine the fun I get at the Capitol when we 

22 have renewable energy standards to debate.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
235

1 I'm here to testify in favor of the 

2 proposed rules, in large part due to what I've 

3 been able to see here in Colorado, in my own 

4 House district, in House District 11. We have 

5 had the opportunity, in Colorado, since really 

6 2004, to see increases in our renewable energy 

7 standards, and we heard a lot of the same 

8 concerns, and we've responded to those concerns 

9 by moving aggressively but responsibly, and I 

10 think that's exactly what the EPA needs to do, as 

11 well.

12 Even last year, in a rancorous debate 

13 relating to our increase in the renewable energy 

14 standard for rural electric cooperatives, we put 

15 in safeguards to make sure that consumer prices 

16 wouldn't exceed a 2-percent increase every year, 

17 and we also, when we looked at the numbers, saw 

18 that even farmers were going to see increases 

19 more than $20 to $40 per month, in most cases.

20 So we need to balance our economy with 

21 our environment. That's what we've done in 

22 Colorado, but we can't do it alone. We know that 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
236

1 this is really a national and international 

2 issue, and that's why I'm here today, is because, 

3 as much as we can continue to do good work in 

4 Colorado, we're really going to need the Federal 

5 Government to step up and work collaboratively 

6 with other states, including our own, to make 

7 sure that we can reach new standards and set the 

8 bar even higher. 

9 Colorado is known as a renewable energy 

10 Mecca. You have not only multinational 

11 corporations investing in our communities here, 

12 but you have startups that are either spun off 

13 from University of Colorado and CSU or individual 

14 entrepreneurs, all stepping up.

15 Last but not least, coming from the 

16 community of Longmont and Lyons, we are the 

17 unfortunate victims of extreme global climate 

18 change. Boulder County has seen fires, it's seen 

19 floods, it's seen drought. All of these things 

20 will continue with extreme global climate change, 

21 which is the scientific consensus now, and it 

22 will continue in a way that will show extreme 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
237

1 weather events. Imagine what it was like for a 

2 small business in Lyons to remain closed for 60 

3 days because of a roadblock set up by the 

4 National Guard, due to extreme damage done by 

5 floods, with raw sewage floating. 

6 These kinds of events can only be 

7 prevented through national efforts, and that's 

8 why I believe what you're doing and what the EPA 

9 is proposing is so important. Like I said, we've 

10 seen fires, we've seen floods, we've seen 

11 droughts. All of these are preventable -- not 

12 100 percent, but we can prevent them.

13 So, for the sake of our economy and for 

14 the sake of our environment, and for the sake of 

15 our national security, I encourage you to move 

16 forward, and to do like what we've done in 

17 Colorado, in moving aggressively but responsibly 

18 in working with our communities, both urban, 

19 rural, and municipal, just like I get to do in my 

20 House District 11.

21 Thank you.

22 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Ms. Sturman?

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
238

1 MS. STURMAN: Hi. Carol Sturman, S-t-u2 r-m-a-n. I'm Chairman and President of Sturman 

3 Industries, a Colorado company that started in 

4 California. Thank you for being here, and for 

5 the opportunity to speak.

6 First of all, as a resident of Colorado, 

7 I moved to Woodland Park, Colorado, and in 17 

8 years we enjoyed wonderful climate and weather, 

9 and nature that my company is helping preserve, 

10 but because of the fires, I've been cut off many, 

11 many, many times because the mountain pass that 

12 goes up to our place now has flooding that's 

13 extreme. It's killed people. Fires have taken 

14 out, I think, 600 or 700 homes in the last 2 to 3 

15 years, and now we have terrible flooding that's 

16 cutting off our community. So just on a personal 

17 note, we're seeing the results of it.

18 My company is designed to address this, 

19 and I want to brief you on what's possible and 

20 show support for it, because we have data from 

21 California related to efficiencies that are even 

22 higher than you probably know of, and it can add 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
239

1 to the case that it can be practical, affordable, 

2 and viable, and it doesn't have to raise the cost 

3 of rural communities. In fact, it can help them.

4 We are a technology innovator. We have 

5 technology that NASA has recommended. It is 

6 space technology, and our key innovator is Eddie 

7 Sturman, who will talk after me. He has 175 

8 patents, and counting, and when I was first 

9 introduced to him, I was told he was one of 

10 America's greatest natural resources. 

11 I would like to actually suggest that 

12 this is a person who has studied how to modernize 

13 mechanical things, like electronics had 

14 modernized, to make them efficient, clean, and 

15 green, and use renewable technologies. He is 

16 available to be a consultant at any time, if 

17 that's something that the EPA would like. He's 

18 had programs. We've had program with EPA, 

19 California Energy Commission, California Air 

20 Resources Board, Japan, the European Union. We 

21 have expertise around energy that doesn't exist 

22 anywhere else in the world.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
240

1 CARB did a study, a year-long study to 

2 pass AB32, their CO2 law, and they listed 

3 technologies that allow CO2 improvement, and it 

4 all goes around the area that we work in, that we 

5 can share information with you on, around 

6 internal combustion engine efficiency. They can 

7 be much more efficient than they are today. They 

8 can change your equations, improve them, and get 

9 even higher than 30 percent, and this can be done 

10 in stationary power, distributed power, central 

11 power, as well as shipping and transportation 

12 trucks, on-road and off-road. 

13 So Eddie will share with you some of the 

14 information, but what we've seen is it can be 

15 even better than you think, and the costs can 

16 actually be reduced for users, because the 

17 efficiency can be so high, simply by modernizing 

18 the controls and not by going to some crazy thing 

19 that doesn't exist yet that needs to be invented. 

20 And it can also enable -- an important thing is 

21 enabling alternative fuels -- new fuels, clean 

22 fuels, even carbon-free fuels. All of that is 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
241

1 possible. You shouldn't give up. The U.N. 

2 reports are compelling. What we're experiencing 

3 here in Colorado is compelling. We completely 

4 believe in it, and support it, and can help you 

5 in any way that you may want.

6 Thank you.

7 MS. BROWN: Thank you. And you 

8 referenced some technical information. If you 

9 could submit that to the docket, it would be 

10 helpful.

11 MS. STURMAN: I'll be happy to.

12 MS. BROWN: Thank you.

13 MS. STURMAN: Thank you.

14 MS. BROWN: Our next two speakers are 

15 Eddie Sturman and Jessica Langerman. Go ahead, 

16 Mr. Sturman.

17 MR. STURMAN: Okay. How come there's no 

18 light going on?

19 MS. BROWN: She's got to -- if you could 

20 turn the other one off, it should work.

21 MR. STURMAN: Can you hear me?

22 MS. BROWN: Yes.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
242

1 MR. STURMAN: Okay. Thank you. Eddie 

2 Sturman, S-t-u-r-m-a-n. I'm Carol's husband. 

3 Thank you, Carol, for the introduction, but you 

4 took half of my speech away.

5 I'm going to talk about the technology. 

6 There are solutions. We have the solutions. 

7 What we need to do is implement it, and to 

8 implement it, we need to understand why we got to 

9 this problem to begin with. Why are we even 

10 here? Well, technology and economics go together 

11 in this case, because the people that are 

12 producing electricity are making money. They 

13 don't want to change. 

14 I've been working at this for 30 years, 

15 showing how, through efficiency, we can make 

16 smart engines that can optimize themselves for 

17 any fuel, why not start with coal or diesel or 

18 natural gas, but we need smart engines, so 

19 instead of just talking about fuels, we need to 

20 talk about how do we burn the fuel more 

21 economically, so they don't pollute.

22 The key to the whole thing is that 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
243

1 engines have been around for over 100 years. 

2 They are mechanically controlled, so it's very 

3 limited, because, mechanically, you cannot adjust 

4 the different conditions of different fields. 

5 So, even the vocabulary that we have is the wrong 

6 vocabulary. We think that an engine and a fuel 

7 have to go together. It's not true. 

8 Visualize an engine that's smart enough 

9 that you can put in it any fuel, existing or ones 

10 that are new and clean. The engine will know 

11 what you put in it, change all the parameters 

12 from one cycle to another. Just imagine what 

13 could happen. It will change everything. We can 

14 be more efficient, more economical, and 

15 definitely more clean.

16 We definitely support what the EPA is 

17 doing. We've been working with the EPA in the 

18 past. We have facilities to prove that 

19 everything that I'm saying is real. 

20 So, maybe talk about a couple of things 

21 before my time is up. So, other than we need to 

22 have new fuels, not just the ones that have been 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
244

1 around. We also need to have engines that are 

2 modified. The only thing you need to change in 

3 an internal combustion engine is the controls. 

4 Electronic controls -- we have them. We've had 

5 the space program with a lot of technology. It's 

6 not implemented. It needs to be implemented. 

7 All the goals that you are looking for are very 

8 achievable. I believe they can be even better.

9 One of the things that I think is crucial 

10 is to change the big power stations to 

11 distributed energy. Just generating electricity 

12 in very large facilities, and taking them miles 

13 away is wrong. It's inefficient. You've got 

14 technology that you can generate electricity 

15 truly locally, even maybe at the house level, 

16 using fuels that don't have carbon to begin with. 

17 When we talk about percentages, we can 

18 reduce something by 30 percent. Why not 100 

19 percent? Why not start without carbon in the 

20 fuel?

21 I can see that my time up and I can talk 

22 hours, so I'm going to quit, but thank you for 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
245

1 doing what you're doing. I think it's great, and 

2 you can have our support any time.

3 MS. BROWN: Thank you for your statement. 

4 Ms. Langerman?

5 MS. LANGERMAN: Thank you.

6 MR. RISLEY: Oh, we need to turn that one 

7 off. Sorry.

8 MS. LANGERMAN: Okay. Thank you very 

9 much. My name is Jessica Langerman, L-a-n-g-e-r10 m-a-n. I'm the President of Climate Exchange, 

11 which is a group of citizen activists drawn from 

12 environmental and business groups in 

13 Massachusetts. We believe a carbon tax is viable 

14 in Massachusetts, and our mission is to build the 

15 political will to enact it.

16 In January of 2013, Massachusetts State 

17 Senator Michael Barrett and Massachusetts 

18 Representative Tom Conroy submitted carbon tax 

19 legislation, H.2532, an act relative to shifting 

20 from carbon emissions to transportation 

21 investment. To determine whether or not our 

22 group could support their legislation, we needed 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
246

1 hard data. For this reason, we decided to 

2 commission a report by REMI, or Regional Economic 

3 Models, modeling out Senator Barrett and 

4 Representative Conroy's proposal. 

5 We wanted to know if a carbon tax could 

6 be implemented on the state level that would meet 

7 four goals. It would improve the state's GDP, it 

8 would increase the number of jobs in 

9 Massachusetts, it would significantly reduce 

10 emissions, and it would do all of this while 

11 protecting the poor.

12 We chose REMI because they are a premier 

13 econometric firm, employed not only by 

14 municipalities and states wishing to determine 

15 the impact of a particular proposed fiscal 

16 policy, but also by the oil, gas, and nuclear 

17 industries. Their work is renowned for its lack 

18 of ideological bias.

19 The result of this study, which I will 

20 submit to you, were astonishing. REMI 

21 demonstrated that a primarily revenue-neutral 

22 carbon tax could be constructed for Massachusetts 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
247

1 in such a way as to meet all four of our goals. 

2 In fact, if Massachusetts were to implement such 

3 a tax, at $45 per metric ton of CO2, by 2024, we 

4 could increase our state GDP by $450 million a 

5 year, add an addition 11,000 jobs, and reduce 

6 emissions to 82 percent of 1990 levels. This is 

7 more than the EPA goals envision, and it puts the 

8 lie to the old canard that what is good for the 

9 environment must necessarily be bad for the 

10 economy.

11 It is also clear that a revenue-neutral 

12 carbon tax can be used in conjunction with our 

13 regional greenhouse gas initiative, the regional 

14 cap and trade system in New England. In fact, it 

15 would serve as a reinforcing mechanism.

16 Senator Barrett invited the study's 

17 senior economist, Scott Nystrom, to present his 

18 findings at the Statehouse in July of 2013. We 

19 expected about 20 attendees; 110 people showed 

20 up. We had to lock 30 people out of the room for 

21 fire safety reasons. The results of that report 

22 and the presentation were on the front page of 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
248

1 the Boston Globe and in multiple other media 

2 outlets, including NPR.

3 Since our study hit the press, we have 

4 been contacted by business, civic, labor, health, 

5 faith, environmental, and funding organizations, 

6 asking us how they can help. Our group now 

7 includes members of the Citizens Climate Lobby, 

8 350, the League of Women Voters, environmental 

9 entrepreneurs -- the list goes on. These groups 

10 stand ready to mobilize hundreds of people to 

11 help with moving this bill. Indeed, if you had 

12 had this hearing in Boston, we would've packed 

13 the halls.

14 Furthermore, three out of the six 

15 gubernatorial candidates have endorsed the idea 

16 of a revenue-neutral carbon tax, as the direct 

17 result of our lobbying. The Massachusetts 

18 Department of Energy Resources has now 

19 commissioned its own REMI study to determine not 

20 if a state-level carbon tax is feasible but how 

21 best to implement such a carbon tax. That is how 

22 far we have come in only a year.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
249

1 Now, the EPA has given us a clear goal, 

2 but your definition of emissions standards stands 

3 in our way. It creates uncertainty. It's 

4 unlikely that any state, including Massachusetts, 

5 will want to take on the cost of passing 

6 legislation, writing regulations, and making 

7 necessary economic changes when the EPA itself 

8 could, in the end, reject our proposed state 

9 implementation plan. Given the progress that we 

10 have made, and given that all the tax breaks 

11 considered would significantly reduce carbon, 

12 it's reasonable for us to ask for a clear, legal 

13 answer.

14 Please change the definition of emissions 

15 standards to explicitly allow the use of a carbon 

16 tax on greenhouse gas emissions from power plants 

17 and other sources. Make a carbon tax an explicit 

18 part of the tool bag you are allowing states to 

19 use by modifying the definition of emissions 

20 standards. Help us help you, so we can do our 

21 job of creating the political will to pass carbon 

22 tax legislation in our state.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
250

1 Thank you.

2 MS. BROWN: Thank you so much. The next 

3 speakers are Jack Kegel and William Black. Mr. 

4 Kegel, you can go ahead.

5 MR. KEGEL: Good afternoon. I'm Jack 

6 Kegel. 

7 ATTENDEE: Microphone.

8 MR. KEGEL: Better? Good afternoon. I'm 

9 Jack Kegel, K-e-g-e-l, of the Minnesota Municipal 

10 Utilities Association. We represent 125 

11 municipal electric utilities in Minnesota, and

12 anyway, have submitted written comments this 

13 afternoon and my colleague, Bill Black, and I 

14 will both be speaking from those comments.

15 My first point concerns the widely 

16 divergent state goals produced by the rule, even 

17 among neighboring states. Minnesota has to 

18 achieve a 41-percent reduction from 2012 levels, 

19 while Iowa is assigned a 16-percent reduction, 

20 and North Dakota only 11 percent. The actions 

21 required to achieve these reductions all have 

22 substantial costs, so consumers in Minnesota will 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
251

1 have to bear a much higher financial burden than 

2 consumers in most of our neighboring states.

3 We do appreciate the difficulty of 

4 designing a nationwide program, but we also 

5 believe that it should be possible to modify the 

6 design of the program so as to place states on a 

7 more equal footing.

8 The next point concerns the fair 

9 treatment of early adopters. The proposed rule 

10 places an undue burden on early adopter states by 

11 not treating actions that result in reduced 

12 emissions of CO2 prior to 2020 on an equal 

13 footing with those that take place in 2020 or 

14 later. The goal of the rule is to achieve CO2 

15 emission reductions from the power sector of 

16 approximately 30 percent from 2005 levels. 

17 Ideally, all actions that reduce CO2 

18 emissions from the power sector during the period 

19 from 2005 to 2030 should be given equal weight, 

20 to the degree possible. According to Table 6 in 

21 the proposed rule, Minnesota generation was 18 

22 renewable in 2012. Most of that renewable 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
252

1 generation was added after 2005, and it should be 

2 treated the same as renewable generation added in 

3 2025.

4 The proposed rule seems to be based on 

5 the assumption that most of the activity to 

6 reduce CO2 emissions will take place after 2020, 

7 and doesn't recognize that many states have 

8 renewable energy standards and/or energy 

9 efficiency requirements in place that will result 

10 in substantial reductions in CO2 from the power 

11 sector prior to the 2020-2030 period that the 

12 rule is built around.

13 In Minnesota, for example, Building 

14 Blocks 3 and 4 of the proposed rule were put in 

15 place by our legislature in 2007, so we'll have 

16 23 years of a renewable energy standard and a 

17 very stringent energy efficiency requirement 

18 behind us by 2030. Similarly, many power 

19 providers likely have plans to retire fossil fuel 

20 units or bring on renewable units prior to 2020. 

21 There is no logical reason to treat these 

22 actions different than similar actions taken 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
253

1 during the 2020-2030 period. In order to provide 

2 some measure of fairness for early adopter states 

3 and mitigate the wide variation in individual 

4 state goals, the interim period should be 

5 extended to a 15-year period, beginning in 2015 

6 and extending through 2030. If it doesn't work 

7 to do that for all states, we would suggest that 

8 the 15-year interim period could be provided as 

9 an option for early adopter states.

10 States should be permitted to include in 

11 their plans steps already in place that further 

12 the purpose of the rule. Our recommendation will 

13 allow actions taken in the next 5 years to 

14 receive equal treatment with actions taken after 

15 2020. 

16 The final point that I will address 

17 concerns adjustment of Minnesota coal generation 

18 to account for Sherco 3. Minnesota's newest and 

19 most efficient coal-fired power unit, the 884-

20 megawatt Sherco 3 plant was offline during all of 

21 2012, due to a major outage. Minnesota's coal 

22 generation data used in developing the rule is 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
254

1 therefore abnormally low and must be adjusted to 

2 include the energy produced by Sherco 3 in a 

3 typical year. Based on our preliminary 

4 calculations, including typical generation from 

5 Sherco 3 in the baseline, reduces a substantial 

6 change in Minnesota's interim and final goals.

7 Mr. Black will address our remaining 

8 points. Thank you for your time.

9 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Black? 

10 You've got to turn the other microphone off to 

11 get that one on.

12 MR. BLACK: Good afternoon. My name is 

13 William Black, B-l-a-c-k, and I'm also with 

14 Minnesota Municipal Utilities Association, and 

15 will continue with the comments we've brought 

16 before you today.

17 Operating combined cycle plants at a 70-

18 percent capacity factor may not be feasible over 

19 the long term. We have very serious concerns 

20 about EPA's proposal to redispatch combined-cycle 

21 plants to operate at an average 70-percent 

22 capacity factor. Based on the experience of 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
255

1 Minnesota Utilities, in operating combined-cycle 

2 plants, we believe that it will be impossible to 

3 maintain a 70-percent capacity factor for such 

4 plants over the long term. We see this as a 

5 fundamental flaw in the structure of the rule, 

6 that is destined to produce serious compliance 

7 problems, and it could substantially degrade the 

8 reliability of the nation's electric system.

9 Out-state renewable generation, developed 

10 by Minnesota Utilities to comply with the 

11 Minnesota renewable energy standard should be 

12 allocated to Minnesota. Much of the wind 

13 generation relied upon by Minnesota Utilities to 

14 comply with the state's renewable energy standard 

15 is located in the Dakotas. This generation, 

16 developed or licensed by Minnesota Utilities to 

17 meet the Minnesota RES, should be credited toward 

18 Minnesota's reduction in CO2 levels. Minnesota 

19 officials have receive preliminary confirmation 

20 from the EPA that this will be the case. We 

21 support that determination and want to underscore 

22 the importance of it.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
256

1 The rule must provide a mechanism for 

2 accommodating substantial new development. The 

3 proposed rule provides no means of modifying the 

4 goals to account for major new industries or 

5 substantial ecnomic development. Northwest 

6 Minnesota may see the development of two large 

7 nickel-copper mines and a major steel mill in the 

8 early 2020s. These projects will be going into 

9 an economically disadvantages area and are sorely 

10 needed to maintain a healthy economy in that part 

11 of the state. It would be very difficult, if not 

12 impossible, to accommodate these major new loads 

13 and still achieve the very large reductions in 

14 CO2 emissions mandated for Minnesota under the 

15 rule.

16 The proposed 10-year average lifetime for 

17 efficiency measures is appropriate. The proposed 

18 rule assumes an average electricity efficiency 

19 measure lifetime across all sectors of 10 years. 

20 We believe that this is a reasonable level and we 

21 support it.

22 The EPA needs to balance concern for the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
257

1 environment with reliability and cost. The 

2 proposed rule contains virtually no discussion of 

3 its impact on electric system reliability and 

4 cost to consumers. Its analysis of costs and 

5 benefits takes into account "monitoring, record6 keeping, and recording costs and demand side 

7 energy efficiency program and participant costs," 

8 but it does not take into account increased costs 

9 to consumers, as utilities pass on potential 

10 higher operating costs due to increased reliance 

11 on natural gas and the need to invest in new, 

12 potentially higher cost technology to comply with 

13 the rule, nor does it take into account the 

14 potential cost to society that may result from 

15 reduced reliability. 

16 The environmental benefits of the rule 

17 could well be counterbalanced by reduced 

18 reliability and substantial cost increases to 

19 residential consumers and businesses. Some 

20 potential courses of action may have less impact 

21 on reliability and/or price than others. Each 

22 potential action should be analyzed for its 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
258

1 impact on reliability and cost, as well as its 

2 impact on CO2 emissions.

3 EPA must take into account issues raised 

4 by RTOs. The Ball transmission system was 

5 designed to deliver power to load, based on the 

6 current generation mix. Changing the mix of 

7 generation could impact the ability of the 

8 existing system to perform. Furthermore, in our 

9 region, states are not responsible for 

10 dispatching power plants. That responsibility 

11 falls to the Mid-Continent independent system 

12 operator, our regional transmission organization. 

13 RTOs should report on the potential impact of the 

14 changes mandated by the rule on the transmissions 

15 system. EPA should give serious consideration to 

16 any concerns raised by RTOs and similar 

17 organizations.

18 Finally, EPA should develop a mass-based 

19 calculation and formula for states to use. 

20 Minnesota's regulators, like those in many other 

21 states, will be working on developing a mass22 based formula. EPA should develop a mass-based 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
259

1 calculation and formula for all 50 states to use, 

2 to ensure uniformity and fairness among the 

3 states.

4 Thank you for consideration of these 

5 concerns.

6 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 

7 speakers are Kathleen Wells and Richard Koetting. 

8 Ms. Wells, you can go ahead.

9 MS. WELLS: Good afternoon. My name is 

10 Kathleen Wells. I live in Denver. Thank you for 

11 the opportunity to speak today and to voice my 

12 support for the Environmental Protection Agency's 

13 proposed Clean Power Plan to reduce carbon 

14 pollution from power plants. I'm a psychologist, 

15 a retired university professor, and a member of 

16 the Citizens Climate lobby, as well as other 

17 environmental organizations. I am not, however, 

18 representing any of these organizations at this 

19 meeting.

20 Over the past 2 days, speakers have 

21 addressed the deleterious and potentially 

22 catastrophic effects of carbon and methane 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
260

1 pollution on the human and natural environment, 

2 advised how the scope of the EPA plan could be 

3 widened and the proposed standards could be 

4 raised, or suggested specific mechanisms through 

5 which the existing plan might be improved. My 

6 purpose now is neither to repeat nor to expand 

7 upon any of the thoughtful points that have been 

8 made. My purpose is rather to highlight support 

9 for climate action from groups that have not been 

10 well represented at this meeting, that is, 

11 Americans involved in communities of faith. This 

12 group, taken collectively, constitutes an 

13 overwhelming majority of American citizens.

14 While I do not have evidence that the 

15 country's faith communities would endorse the 

16 details of the plan, I do provide evidence in the 

17 written material I have submitted that these 

18 groups would endorse the spirit of the EPA plan. 

19 These communities are describing the climate 

20 crisis in moral terms and calling for strong 

21 action to care for the creation, to protect the 

22 poor, and to promote intergenerational justice. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
261

1 Religious groups and religious leaders 

2 have made explicit statements calling for 

3 immediate action to reduce the ecological threats 

4 we face. These groups include, but are not 

5 limited to, the following ones: the Catholic 

6 Church, the Episcopal Church, the National 

7 Association of Evangelicals, the Southern Baptist 

8 Conference, the Presbyterian Church USA, the 

9 Religious Society of Friends, the Unitarian 

10 Universalist Association, the Central Conference 

11 of American Rabbis, and the Dalai Lama. 

12 The July 2012 statement from the 

13 Episcopal Church is illustrative, and I quote, 

14 "Resolved, the 77th General Convention calls on 

15 congregations, institutions, dioceses, and 

16 corporate offices of the Episcopal Church to work 

17 for the just transformation of the world's energy 

18 beyond and away from fossil fuels, including all 

19 forms of oil, coal, and natural gas, and for a 

20 safe, sustainable, renewable community-controlled 

21 energy, and that fossil fuel workers and their 

22 families be supported during the transition to a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
262

1 post-carbon society." 

2 Not surprisingly, such faith communities 

3 have banded together to form interfaith groups 

4 that are national in scope, groups such as the 

5 Call to Conscience on Climate Disruption, or 

6 Interfaith Power and Light, an organization whose 

7 mission is to promote energy conservation, energy 

8 efficiency, and renewable energy. 

9 The theoretical basis for interfaith 

10 collaboration on ecological issues is being 

11 explored by groups such as the Yale University 

12 Forum on Religion and Ecology, a forum that is, 

13 in fact, spearheading the development of a new 

14 academic field concerned with the religious 

15 dimensions of the climate crisis. All of these 

16 efforts contributed, no doubt, to the World 

17 Council of Church's position, adopted this month, 

18 that encourages church communities to divest from 

19 fossil fuels.

20 In conclusion, faith communities, aided 

21 by dialog, deliberation, and theory development, 

22 have moved from statements of conscience to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
263

1 interfaith collaboration, to concerted action in 

2 the political arena designed to address the 

3 climate crisis. This effort is growing and will 

4 expand.

5 Thank you so much for your work on this 

6 issue and for your attention.

7 MS. BROWN: Thank you, and Mr. Koetting?

8 MR. KOETTING: Good afternoon. My name 

9 is Richard Koetting, K-o-e-t-t-i-n-g. I'm the 

10 Business Manager for International Brotherhood of 

11 Electrical Workers Local 667 in Pueblo, Colorado. 

12 On behalf of the active members and retirees of 

13 Local 667, I thank you for this opportunity to 

14 testify on the EPA's Clean Power Plan.

15 IBEW Local 667 is a utility local union 

16 that represents members at Black Hills Energy, 

17 San Isabel Electric Association, and Asplundh 

18 Tree Experts, with job classifications ranging 

19 from customer service to tree trippers to 

20 journeyman linemen, and, until December 31, 2012, 

21 coal plant personnel.

22 I saw an article published in the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
264

1 Washington Post last week, titled, "The Cost of

2 Climate Change: How Not to Shut Down Coal 

3 Plants." As a resident of Pueblo, the article 

4 really hit home for me and made me want to 

5 testify at this hearing even more, to caution the 

6 EPA, do not make the same mistakes that Colorado 

7 has. 

8 The residential rate per kilowatt hour at 

9 Black Hills Colorado, has risen about 26 percent 

10 since 2010. On a per-household basis, Pueblo and 

11 other communities that are served, those rates 

12 are now among the highest in the state. Why the 

13 drastic change in electric rates? Before the EPA 

14 began heavily regulating the coal industry, 

15 Colorado put in place Amendment 37 in 2004, which 

16 required a 30-percent renewable energy standard 

17 for IOUs, and also House Bill 1365 in 2010, which 

18 was the Clean Air, Clean Jobs Act, and lastly, 

19 Senate Bill 252. 

20 While this shift in electric generation 

21 in the state from coal to renewables and natural 

22 gas has brought some good short-term paying jobs, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
265

1 it does not come close to offsetting the economic 

2 effects from the loss of long-term jobs and the 

3 crazy increases in electric rates. This drastic 

4 increase in electricity has hit Pueblo 

5 extraordinarily hard. Pueblo is an area that is 

6 economically depressed, with over 22 percent 

7 living below the poverty rate. 

8 The increase in electricity prices has 

9 also been accompanied by widespread job loss. 

10 For every 1,000 megawatts of power generated by 

11 coal-fired, there are approximately 250 jobs 

12 associated with that 1,000 megawatts. For every 

13 1,000 megawatts of natural gas, there are 

14 approximately 50 jobs. It's a stark difference.

15 Black Hills Energy chose to replace 

16 almost all of its coal-fired plants with natural 

17 gas plants. Individuals lost good-paying, high18 skilled jobs and communities lost tax base. 

19 Quite simply, utility companies changing to 

20 comply with the Colorado standards have left the 

21 consumers paying the bill. It's kept many small 

22 businesses from hiring additional employees, and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
266

1 real families having to choose between the 

2 keeping the lights on, heating their homes, and 

3 feeding their kids.

4 I encourage you to check out Pueblo and 

5 its situation and the effects of what's in place 

6 now. The people of Colorado cannot afford to 

7 lose another coal-fired plant. I am here today to 

8 strongly caution the EPA against being so 

9 ambitious that it decides to fight the global 

10 problem of climate change on its own, requiring 

11 the entire U.S. to go down the path Colorado has. 

12 A global climate change is needed, one 

13 that brings everyone to the table. China and 

14 India have global emissions that grow every year. 

15 Without their commitment to reducing and fighting 

16 this climate change, these regulations will only 

17 be doing the U.S. and its citizens a disservice.

18 The cost of electricity will undoubtedly 

19 rise, thousands will be left without jobs, and 

20 the strength of our electric grid will be 

21 diminished.

22 Thank you again for this opportunity to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
267

1 testify. I respectfully suggest the EPA 

2 reconsider the Clean Power Plan, taking into 

3 account how aggressive standards have harmed the 

4 great state of Colorado and some of its citizens.

5 Thank you.

6 MS. BROWN: Thank you both. Our next 

7 speakers are Timeo Archuleta and Lonnie Russell.

8 MR. ARCHULETA: Does it matter which 

9 order?

10 MS. BROWN: No. Whichever one of you 

11 wants to go first, that's fine.

12 MS. RUSSELL: Good afternoon. I'm Lonnie 

13 Russell from California. I'm a concerned citizen 

14 and a member of the Moms Clean Air Force. I'm 

15 here today because I care deeply about the future 

16 of our children and the communities across the 

17 country and the world that are most vulnerable to 

18 climate change impacts and dirty air.

19 Children are particularly vulnerable to 

20 climate change, making asthma triggers worse, as 

21 extreme heat is hard on little bodies. The soot 

22 and smog pollution that climate change 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
268

1 exacerbates damages developing lungs and 

2 increases respiratory infections. California's 

3 Central Valley has some of the dirtiest air in 

4 the country, with high rates of childhood asthma. 

5 The culprits are two components of air pollution 

6 -- ground-level ozone and particulate matter. 

7 Ground-level ozone can have corrosive effects on 

8 the lungs, decreasing lung function. The simple 

9 act of breathing carries these particles deep 

10 into the lungs where they stick and can cause 

11 breathing and heart problems. With climate 

12 change, these impacts will only worsen.

13 Low-income and communities of color are 

14 disproportionately affected by environmental 

15 pollution and climate change effects, another 

16 important reason I ask you to protect our 

17 communities by moving forward and strengthening 

18 the Clean Power Plan. 

19 Communities are already being harmed by 

20 climate change. Extreme weather damages our 

21 homes and the places we love. It harms our 

22 agricultural communities in California, which 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
269

1 grow and cultivate food for the entire country, 

2 and sea-level rise threatens our coastline. 

3 California is currently suffering the worst 

4 drought we've seen in decades, which, with 

5 climate change, will only happen more frequently.

6 In northern Philippines, where my family 

7 is from, more severe typhoons, more severe 

8 flooding, and severe temperatures are already 

9 threatening the fragile ecosystems and quality of 

10 life in the region. Last year, my family's home 

11 in the Philippines was flooded with over 5 feet 

12 of water for several weeks on end. Flooding that 

13 great had never previously been seen in the 

14 region. With the impacts of climate change, this 

15 already fragile area of the world will only be 

16 put in greater danger.

17 My parents and family immigrated from the 

18 Philippines, working as maintenance workers, 

19 house cleaners, and nursing assistants. My 

20 family may not be environmentalists per se, but 

21 share a common value of protecting the health of 

22 their children and the communities around them. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
270

1 They have engrained a deep sense of 

2 responsibility to care for the vulnerable 

3 communities, including the health of the children 

4 and the elderly, especially those that may not 

5 have the same opportunities as others.

6 I am privileged to be able to speak on 

7 behalf of my family to address the most important 

8 environmental and socioeconomic challenge of our 

9 time. The U.S. must reduce its emissions moving 

10 forward. Its impact is not only felt locally but 

11 around the globe. Carbon pollution from power 

12 plants is the largest single source of carbon 

13 dioxide emissions. The EPA's clean power plan is 

14 an important first step in addressing climate 

15 change for the U.S.

16 I ask the EPA strengthens the Clean Power 

17 Plan and finalizes a rule that reduces carbon 

18 dioxide emissions 40 percent below 2005 levels by 

19 2020. We have a moral obligation to act to 

20 protect our children and to leave them a planet 

21 that is better than we found it. Continued 

22 leadership is needed to protect the air we 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
271

1 breathe, the water we drink, and the quality of 

2 life that we continue to value. We must ensure 

3 that we continue to act on climate and protect 

4 the diversity that defines America's distinct 

5 landscape.

6 Thank you for your time and attention. I 

7 appreciate the opportunity to testify.

8 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Archuleta?

9 MR. ARCHULETA: Good afternoon. My name 

10 is Timeo Archuleta. I'm a senior business agent 

11 for the International Brotherhood of Electrical 

12 Workers and an industrial organizer for the same 

13 local union. I work with 3,500 Local 111 members 

14 who are employed in many classifications of work 

15 by electric and gas utilities, including co-ops 

16 throughout Colorado. 

17 Can you hear me? It sounds like it's 

18 going in and out.

19 I'm here today to talk about the EPA 

20 Clean Power Plan proposal and the negative 

21 effects it will have on reliability and 

22 affordability for many states like Colorado. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
272

1 Under the Clean Power Plan, the reliability of 

2 the electric grid will suffer. Ninety percent of 

3 the plants that will be closed by the EPA's most 

4 recent final rule, the Mercury and Air Toxic 

5 Standards, MATS acronym, were needed to provide 

6 power during last winter, one of the coldest and 

7 snowiest winters on record. 

8 Taken together, MATS and the Clean Power 

9 Plan will close nearly 100 gigawatts of coal10 fired generation, severely compromising grid 

11 reliability, particularly during winter cold 

12 snaps and summer heat waves. Access to 

13 affordable energy is the most utmost importance 

14 to the Coloradans. Every dollar spent on 

15 electricity is a dollar that cannot be spent on 

16 groceries, next year's family vacation, housing, 

17 education, just to name a few.

18 Local 111's members are very concerned 

19 with the negative impacts on electricity prices. 

20 Here in Colorado, we have a considerable 

21 experience as to what happens when you remove 

22 coal generation from the mix of the fuel 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
273

1 diversity. Colorado has already been shutting 

2 down coal plants, as the state transitions to 

3 natural gas renewables. It has not been a smooth 

4 or just process.

5 In Pueblo, as Mr. Koetting talked, Black 

6 Hills Energy chose to replace almost all of its 

7 coal generation with natural gas in a very short 

8 period, resulting in 26-percent hike since 2010. 

9 Please know that Pueblo is not wealthy. You 

10 won't confuse Pueblo with Vail or Aspen. It has 

11 a poverty rate of -- my numbers are 18.1 and his 

12 numbers are 21-point-something. I'm guess his 

13 numbers are probably more accurate than mine are. 

14 Mine just come from the Bureau of Statistics.

15 Without question, residents have been 

16 hurt by the quick transition to natural gas. 

17 Whether or not the EPA admits it, the quick 

18 transition required by Clean Power Plan will 

19 cause pain throughout this country, not only in 

20 Colorado.

21 It is important that the government 

22 implement policies that will ensure affordable, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
274

1 reliable energy to our families, farms, 

2 factories, and small businesses. It has been 

3 estimated that 52,000 permanent, direct jobs in 

4 the utility, rail, and coal-mining sectors, and 

5 100,000 indirect jobs will be lost because of 

6 this proposal. These a good-paying jobs with 

7 benefits that sustain the family farms, small 

8 businesses, and even things as simple as the 

9 country store. This will ultimately cause ghost 

10 towns in parts of rural Colorado.

11 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

12 before you today. In conclusion, I ask you that 

13 you keep Americans in mind as you promulgate 

14 rules that adversely affect us, the working class 

15 Americans.

16 Thank you.

17 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next speakers 

18 are Brad Tollerson and Guy Runco. Mr. Tollerson, 

19 do you want to go ahead and get started?

20 MR. TOLLERSON: Sure. Good afternoon. 

21 My name is Brad Tollerson, T-o-l-l-e-r-s-o-n, 

22 Vice President of Planning and Strategy for Otter 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
275

1 Tail Power Company. 

2 I have three messages today.

3 (1) Cost matters.

4 (2) The EPA may have exceeded its 

5 statutory authority by proposing emissions 

6 guidelines that go beyond the fence of individual 

7 generating units.

8 (3) The EPA must adjust the state 

9 targets if it proceeds with the Clean Power Plan.

10 First, allow me to address cost. Otter 

11 Tail Power Company is a small, investor-owned 

12 utility that serves customers in western 

13 Minnesota, eastern North Dakota, and northeastern 

14 South Dakota. The environment matters to us 

15 because we live with our families in the 

16 communities we serve, in states that have some of 

17 the cleanest air in the nation. 

18 The average population in our communities 

19 is about 400. We are very rural. Our median20 sized town in North Dakota, for example, is 

21 Mercer, population 94. Mercer's average annual 

22 household income is near $39,000, and 29 percent 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
276

1 of Mercer's households have someone the age 65 or 

2 older, living alone.

3 Mercer's big businesses are Freeburg's 

4 [ph] Grocery Store and Ed's Service Station. 

5 These are the customers and businesses EPA must 

6 keep in mind as it finalizes Section 111(d) 

7 guidelines. Cost matters to them.

8 Second, we believe the EPA may have 

9 exceeded its statutory authority by creating 

10 emissions guidelines that go beyond the fence of 

11 individual generating units. The EPA always 

12 established standards achievable through the 

13 application of the best system of emissions 

14 reduction for the generating unit. The change in 

15 methodology here creates the untenable 

16 circumstance contrary to the intent of Congress, 

17 that the emissions limitations for some existing 

18 sources will be more stringent than those for new 

19 sources.

20 Third, if the EPA goes ahead with the 

21 Clean Power Plan, it should make technical 

22 adjustments to the final rule. In South Dakota, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
277

1 for example, Building Blocks 1 and 2 are 

2 technically unfeasible. Here's why. Otter Tail 

3 Power Company operates in jointly-owned Big Stone 

4 Plant, the one coal-fired power plant in South 

5 Dakota. Building Block 1 is technically 

6 unfeasible because the Big Stone Plant already 

7 has performed the available significant heat-rate 

8 improvement projects. 

9 Moreover, EPA's formula overlooks the 

10 fact that Big Stone Plant is investing nearly 

11 $400 million, as we speak, to install pollution 

12 control equipment to comply with EPA's regional 

13 haze rules. This equipment will add an estimated 

14 8 megawatts of station service to the plant that 

15 cannot be recouped through efficiency 

16 improvements.

17 Building Block 2 is also technically 

18 unfeasible. Application of the proposed rule's 

19 formula would require Big Stone Plant to operate 

20 at a 23-percent capacity factor. In turn, the 

21 application of the rule would dramatically 

22 increase the dispatch of the only natural gas 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
278

1 combined-cycle unit in the state. 

2 The application of this formula has 

3 numerous technical flaws. First, Big Stone Plant 

4 and the one combined-cycle unit have no 

5 contractual relationship, are owned by different 

6 companies, and serve unique loads. The combined7 cycle unit owner has no obligation to provide the 

8 energy to the owners of Big Stone Plant, or 

9 ultimately their customers. 

10 Second, Big Stone operates within the 

11 MISO centralized market. Beginning in 2015, the 

12 combined-cycle unit will be dispatched through 

13 the Southwest Power Pool centralized market. 

14 Accordingly, the two units will operate with 

15 entirely different commitment and dispatch 

16 processes.

17 Third, each of the three Big Stone Plant 

18 co-owners relies on the capacity and energy from 

19 the plant for all 12 months of the year. Because 

20 Big Stone Plant's minimum operating load is 

21 approximately 40 percent of maximum output, a 23-

22 percent capacity factor would require the unit to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
279

1 be offline for at least half the year, 

2 jeopardizing the plant's future, along with the 

3 $400 million being invested in environmental

4 upgrades. This would substantially increase 

5 costs for our customers, including Freeberg's 

6 Grocery Store and Ed's Service Station.

7 Even if redispatch were workable in this 

8 setting, the South Dakota target would need to be 

9 adjusted because the lone combined-cycle unit did 

10 not begin operating until late 2012, resulting in 

11 an unrepresentative 1-percent capacity factor. 

12 The combined-cycle unit should be considered an 

13 under-construction unit in the South Dakota 

14 target calculation, similar to the treatment of 

15 the combined-cycle units that began operation or 

16 construction in 2013, in other states.

17 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

18 today. Otter Tail Power Company will provide 

19 more detailed comments on these and other issues. 

20 We look forward to final 111(d) guidelines that 

21 are both cost-effective and achievable.

22 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Runco?

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
280

1 MR. RUNCO: Good afternoon. My name is 

2 Gun Runco. The last name is R-u-n-c-o. I'm an 

3 international representative with the 

4 International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. 

5 I live in Pueblo, Colorado, and I work all over 

6 the state of Colorado. Before I became an 

7 international representative, through the '70s 

8 and '80s I worked for Centel Electric, a utility 

9 company in southern Colorado that is now Black 

10 Hills Colorado. I worked in the utility industry 

11 for 13 years as a substation electrician, working 

12 in both substations and power plants in the 

13 southern Colorado area.

14 In 1987, I became the Business Manager of 

15 IBEW Local 667, representing electric utility 

16 workers in southern Colorado, and continued to do 

17 this for 12 years. In 1999, I became an 

18 International Rep for the IBEW, representing 

19 electrical workers across the IBEW's 8th 

20 District, and I continue to do that today.

21 On behalf of the IBEW members in the 

22 entire 8th District, which consists of the states 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
281

1 of Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, and Colorado, I 

2 thank you for this opportunity to testify. The 

3 IBEW, in conjunction with Unions for Jobs & 

4 Environmental Progress, estimate the EPA's 

5 proposed Clean Power rule will result in the loss 

6 of 52,000 permanent, direct jobs by 2020, due to 

7 coal-fired power plant closures, and the loss of 

8 167,000 total direct and indirect jobs. 

9 The job loss is not limited to two 

10 positions in the plants that will close -- jobs 

11 in the coal-fired power plants or jobs in the 

12 communities closely surrounding the power plants. 

13 These jobs are in the railroad, mining, 

14 electrical, and service industries. These jobs 

15 are all highly paid, highly skilled, and, for the 

16 most part, they're in rural communities all 

17 across Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Utah, and 

18 Wyoming, areas that do not have comparable 

19 employment opportunities.

20 In the 8th District, across the states of 

21 Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wyoming, 

22 there are countless communities that are totally 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
282

1 reliant on the jobs created by coal-fired power 

2 plants, places like Delta, Utah; Wheatland, 

3 Wyoming; Colstrip, Montana; and Craig, Colorado. 

4 In all of these communities, the power plants 

5 jobs and all of the related service jobs that are 

6 created by the operation of a coal-fired power 

7 plant, are absolutely essential to the economy of 

8 those communities, not only the towns themselves 

9 but of the surrounding community, as a whole.

10 There is no doubt that the job loss 

11 created by the Clean Power Plan will have a 

12 devastating effect on these communities, 

13 communities that are still experiencing record 

14 unemployment rates. If this plan moves forward 

15 as is written, there is no doubt that it will be 

16 at an extremely high cost for the states of 

17 Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wyoming, in 

18 both terms of jobs lost, communities impacted, 

19 and electric utility rates that will be raised. 

20 Job loss will be accompanying generation 

21 loss. The EPA reports the Clean Power Plan will 

22 lead to the closure of over 40 gigawatts of coalOLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
283

1 fired generating capacity by 2020. This is the 

2 equivalent of Colorado, Nevada, Utah, and Wyoming 

3 all losing their existing power entirely. Due to 

4 the nature of the rule, exact plant closure and 

5 gigawatts that will be lost remains unknown and 

6 difficult to assess until states have finalized 

7 implementation plans, which will not be for 

8 several years.

9 The Clean Power Plant closures will be in 

10 addition to those our area has already seen as a 

11 result of other EPA regulations, like the most 

12 recent, the Mercury and Air Toxics Standard. 

13 Almost half of the U.S. coal-fired power plants 

14 will close by the time the Clean Power Plan is 

15 fully implemented. Renewable energy, solar and 

16 wind, are not prepared to make up for this great 

17 loss on the electrical grid.

18 Natural gas is also not ready to bridge 

19 the gap left by the U.S. coal-fired fleet 

20 closures. EPA's proposal for increasing the use 

21 of natural gas combined-cycle units, in addition 

22 to 40 gigawatts of new natural gas combined-cycle 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
284

1 capacity that the EPA projects to come online 

2 form 2020 to 2030, will lead to significant 

3 increases in natural gas prices, well above the 

4 EPA's projections. This is assuming that all of 

5 the permitting for new plants is even approved 

6 and the plants are then constructed. The IBEW 

7 remains skeptical these plants will even come 

8 online, as the EPA predicts.

9 Increasing electricity demand, coupled 

10 with decreased supply, is a recipe for 

11 skyrocketing electricity prices that will be 

12 passed directly on to the consumers. Our area 

13 has already seen increased costs due to renewable 

14 standards and mass associated plant closures. 

15 Our communities and consumers cannot afford 

16 another round of EPA-related plant closures. 

17 In Colorado, we are already seeing the 

18 effects of recent coal-fired plant closures. We 

19 suffered job losses and now the increased 

20 electric utility rates are a reality of the 

21 citizens of this state. The increased electric 

22 rates have a terrible effect on all of the rate 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
285

1 payers, but even more so on the elderly and the 

2 working class, and those that can least afford to 

3 pay.

4 Increased rates also inhibit new industry 

5 and job creation.

6 MS. BROWN: If you could wrap up your 

7 statement in a minute or two, that would be good.

8 MR. RUNCO: Yes, ma'am. The IBEW has 

9 several recommendations for an improved Clean 

10 Power Plan. Provide credit to states that have 

11 already reduced carbon emissions to help meet EPA 

12 targets. Delay the implementation of Clean Power 

13 Plan to give states and utilities adequate time 

14 to implement compliance strategies, and share 

15 those strategies with the public for comment. 

16 And lastly, develop a global climate 

17 change plan that brings developing nations like 

18 China and India to the table. Both nations' 

19 share of global emissions is growing every year. 

20 Without global commitment to fighting climate 

21 change, EPA regulations will bring no net 

22 benefit.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
286

1 Thank you for this opportunity to 

2 testify. The IBEW looks forward to working with 

3 you toward a climate change solution that keeps 

4 the best interests of both consumers, workers, 

5 and the environment in mind. Unfortunately, the 

6 Clean Power Plan is not that solution.

7 Thank you.

8 MS. BROWN: Thank you. And our next 

9 speakers are Seth Portner and Scott Denning. Mr. 

10 Portner?

11 MR. DENNING: I am Scott Denning.

12 MS. BROWN: Is Mr. Portner in the room? 

13 If you want to go ahead.

14 MR. DENNING: Okay. Good afternoon. My 

15 name is Scott Denning. I’m a professor.

16 ATTENDEE: Turn your mic on.

17 MR. DENNING: Oh. That would be a good 

18 idea. Good afternoon. My name is Scott Denning 

19 and I'm a professor of atmospheric science at 

20 Colorado State University. I've published about 

21 100 papers in the peer-reviewed climate 

22 literature. I'm a former editor of the Journal 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
287

1 of Climate. I served for 5 years as the founding 

2 science chair of the North American Carbon 

3 Program. I support the proposed rule because, in 

4 my expert opinion, these rules are a step in the 

5 right direction to avoid dangerous and extremely 

6 expensive damages to the United States.

7 Climate change is simple, serious, and 

8 solvable. You may be surprised to hear from a 

9 climate scientist that climate change is simple, 

10 but I wanted to explain to you that our concern 

11 about greenhouse gases doesn't come from computer 

12 models. It doesn't come from recent 

13 temperatures. It's not rocket science. It's 

14 absolutely consistent with our everyday 

15 experience of the world. 

16 The Earth's climate results from the 

17 balance between the heat we receive from the sun 

18 and the heat that the Earth radiates back up to 

19 space. If more heat comes in than goes out, it 

20 gets warm. If more heat goes out than comes in, 

21 it cools of. 

22 Carbon dioxide gas absorbs heat because 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
288

1 of its molecular structure, because of the shape 

2 of its molecules. Every time the amount of CO2 

3 in the atmosphere doubles, it adds 4 watts of 

4 heat to every square meter of the planet. That's 

5 the equivalent of one of these light bulbs that -

6 - all of you are old enough to remember these 

7 things, but when I was a little boy, these were 

8 Christmas tree lights. 

9 When my kids were little, they were 

10 nightlights that they used to find the bathroom. 

11 Doubling CO2 puts this much heat on every square 

12 meter of the Earth. I don't know how many square 

13 meters there are in this room -- a fair number --

14 but it's not just this room. It's the whole 

15 building. It's the whole planet, 24/7, 365 days 

16 a year, for centuries to come.

17 Believe it or not, we've known all of 

18 that since before light bulbs were invented. One 

19 hundred fifty years ago, the properties of CO2 

20 were first measured by John Tyndall, in 1863, 

21 when Abraham Lincoln was President. Since that 

22 time, the measurements have gotten better and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
289

1 better, but the answer hasn't changed at all. 

2 We expect the CO2 to warm the climate for 

3 exactly the same reason we expect day to be 

4 warmer than night, for the same reason we expect 

5 summer to be warmer than winter, for the same 

6 reason we expect Miami to be warmer than 

7 Minneapolis. It doesn't come from computer 

8 models. It comes from measurements. We expect 

9 CO2 to warm the climate because we know that when 

10 you add heat to things, they change their 

11 temperature.

12 Climate change is serious. Warmer air 

13 evaporates more water than colder air. Here in 

14 the west, we know how precious water is, and we 

15 can't afford to waste what little we have by 

16 having it evaporate faster from our farms and 

17 ranches and from our reservoirs. We get almost 

18 all of our water from mountain snowpack, and our 

19 economy would suffer tremendously if we lost that 

20 snow. The strongest predictor of wildfire in the 

21 West is summer temperature, and we've seen the 

22 acreage burn double in our region in the last 30 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
290

1 years, even with the small amount of global 

2 warming that we've had so far.

3 Without major emission cuts, western 

4 forests may burn so frequently, they'll be 

5 completely replaced by grass and shrubs. In 

6 other parts of the U.S., the problem isn't too 

7 little; it's too much water. Sea-level rise in a 

8 warming climate could destroy trillions of 

9 dollars worth of real estate along the coasts, 

10 though, thankfully, we certainly don't have to 

11 worry about rising seas in the Mile High City.

12 Climate change is solvable. We have the 

13 technologies already in hand to dramatically 

14 reduce emissions while strengthening our economy 

15 and creating jobs. A complete transformation of 

16 the global economy to non-fossil energy has been 

17 estimated to cost about 1 percent of global GDP. 

18 Our ancestors spent that much retrofitting the 

19 world's cities with indoor plumbing a century 

20 ago. It was worth it. I don't think any of us 

21 would happily take a 1-percent pay raise and give 

22 up indoor plumbing. That money wasn't gone. It 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
291

1 created millions of jobs, for plumbers, for 

2 contractors, for the factories that supplied 

3 them, for the farms and grocers that fed them.

4 Opponents of these rules claim that the 

5 U.S. is weak and that our people are incapable of 

6 meeting this challenge, of solving our climate 

7 problem. They will tell you that our feeble 

8 economy needs to be propped up by energy we dig 

9 from the ground. They are wrong. Our economy is 

10 the strongest in the world because our people 

11 have always been willing to apply ingenuity and 

12 hard work to turn problems into opportunities.

13 I urge you to implement the proposed rule 

14 because I believe our children can be as creative 

15 and as hard-working as our ancestors.

16 Thanks for the opportunity to speak.

17 MS. BROWN: Thank you. I just want to 

18 check one more time whether Seth Portner is in 

19 the room? Excellent? Do you want to go ahead? 

20 Okay.

21 MR. PORTNER: Thank you for the 

22 opportunity to testify today on the EPA proposed 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
292

1 rule on carbon pollution emissions guidelines for 

2 existing stationary sources. My name is Seth 

3 Portner, and I am on the national board of 

4 Efficiency First, and that's Portner, P-o-r-t-n5 e-r.

6 Efficiency First is the national business 

7 association for the home performance industry. 

8 That's basically energy efficiency businesses 

9 that work primarily in small buildings, 

10 residential buildings. We represent contractors 

11 and companies across the United States, with 

12 state and local chapters basically in every 

13 state. 

14 We work with companies to retrofit 

15 Americans' home and to bring them and our economy 

16 into the future. Together we advocate for 

17 policies that accelerate the growth of the 

18 industry, creating huge opportunities for 

19 companies and delivering meaningful value to 

20 homeowners in energy savings.

21 First, we want to applaud the 

22 administration for this important effort to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
293

1 regulate carbon emissions, and for the 

2 recognition in the rule that energy efficiency 

3 should be part of carbon reductions. We believe 

4 that home performance meets the Best System of 

5 Emission Reduction, BSER, test, and is a crucial 

6 part of Building Block 4, energy efficiency, in 

7 the proposed rule. In fact, with more than 113 

8 million residences consuming 22 percent of all 

9 United States energy, this sector is a critical 

10 part of any program that targets emissions 

11 reductions, so, again, I want to reiterate, 113 

12 million American homes and 22 percent of the 

13 energy used.

14 We are here today to offer suggestions 

15 for improvements to the draft regulations, and we 

16 will provide further details in our October 16th 

17 comments. We urge the EPA to consider allowing 

18 states to account for natural gas savings in 

19 energy efficiency programs. We urge EPA to 

20 recognize the unintended consequences that could 

21 be associated with fuel-switching, and the carbon 

22 that would not be captured and measured, as well 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
294

1 as the inefficiencies in delivery of energy2 efficiency services that may come by excluding 

3 efficiency gains from gas and other heating fuels 

4 under the rules.

5 For example, in the residential sector, 

6 current home energy performance programs that aim 

7 to reduce the overall energy use of a home, may 

8 indeed and instead be encouraged by the rule to 

9 switch from electric heat to natural gas heat. 

10 The carbon emitted from the natural gas heater 

11 will not be measured, nor the water heater.

12 We recommend that EPA offer states best 

13 practices for ensuring that energy savings is 

14 maximized in residential programs. Please know 

15 that not all energy efficiency programs are 

16 created equally.

17 Today, rate payer-funded programs that 

18 usually are required to pass a cost-effectiveness 

19 test, those tests are based on five tests 

20 originally developed in the 1970s in California. 

21 Despite more recent updates, these tests are 

22 often implemented in the ways that provide a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
295

1 barrier to deep energy efficiency in residential 

2 buildings. A new screening effort that 

3 Efficiency First has participated in, called the 

4 Resource Value Framework, the RVF, provides a 

5 powerful tool for public utility commissions to 

6 ensure that their cost-effectiveness tests are 

7 balanced, transparent, and account for public 

8 policy goals. We urge EPA to recommend the use 

9 of the Resource Value Framework to states that 

10 wish to test their 111(d) compliance for cost11 effectiveness, in order to encourage deeper 

12 energy savings and opportunities.

13 Home performance programs have many 

14 different designs, as noted in the proposed rule. 

15 For example, with each method for calculating 

16 savings, deemed modeled measured, et cetera, 

17 there are best practices that we urge EPA to 

18 include in its guidance to states developing 

19 their implementation plans. We will provide 

20 further input in our comments, but as a 

21 preliminary statement, we urge EPA today to 

22 consider that there are new technologies, smart 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
296

1 meters to measure energy efficiency as a 

2 resource, home energy management devices, and 

3 others emerging every day in the marketplace, 

4 that can assist with program design and carbon 

5 measurement. 

6 We strongly recommend that EPA recognize 

7 this nascent revolution and ensure that their 

8 regulation not close the door to new technology 

9 and program designs that encourage innovation.

10 As EPA develops its rules for evaluation, 

11 measurement, and verification -- EM&V, in the 

12 industry -- we urge the consideration of energy 

13 consumption data as provided by utilities. This 

14 data, in the form of both traditional utility 

15 bills and more advanced technologies such as 

16 smart devices and home energy management systems, 

17 can provide valuable information about energy use 

18 and contribute to accurate quantification of 

19 savings. This information should be recognized 

20 and considered in the new EM&V.

21 Thank you, on behalf of Efficiency First, 

22 for the opportunity to testify. While there are 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
297

1 a great many gains to be made overall, please 

2 ensure that continued attention is paid to the 

3 only element of the rule that directly includes 

4 both small business and average Americans, the 

5 energy reductions in the residential sector.

6 Thank you very much.

7 MS. BROWN: Thank you, and right now 

8 we're going to take -- it's about three o'clock -

9 - we're going to take a 15-minute break and 

10 reconvene at 3:15.

11 [Recess taken from 3:03 to 3:15 p.m.]

12 MS. BROWN: We're going to go ahead and 

13 get started again in the afternoon session. 

14 First a reminder for anybody who has yet to 

15 speak. There are two small black microphones on 

16 the tables that the court reporter is using to 

17 transcribe the proceedings. Please make sure 

18 you're not putting your papers on top of those or 

19 rustling the papers right next them, because it 

20 makes it hard for him to hear the testimony.

21 So, getting started again, our next two 

22 speakers are Chloe Fandel and Stuart Travis. Ms. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
298

1 Fandel, if you want to go ahead and start.

2 MS. FANDEL: Hi. My name is Chloe 

3 Fandel.

4 MS. BROWN: Hit the button on your 

5 microphone.

6 MS. FANDEL: Start over?

7 MS. BROWN: Great. Yeah. Thank you.

8 MS. FANDEL: Hi. My name is Chloe 

9 Fandel. I'm here in support of the EPA carbon 

10 pollution standards. My background is as a 

11 geologist. I'm about to start graduate school in 

12 hydrogeology -- that's the study of groundwater -

13 - in Arizona.

14 Over the past two years, I've spent time 

15 studying groundwater in the Cascades and in the 

16 South of France, and working for the Audubon 

17 Society as an environmental educator, as well as 

18 for an oil and gas company in Colorado, to try to 

19 understand our energy industry.

20 The things that I've learned have made me 

21 fairly concerned. As a result of human-induced 

22 global warming, we're already seeing dramatic 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
299

1 shifts in the way the planet works, that are 

2 extremely harmful. When I worked for the Audubon 

3 Society in Rhode Island, we saw harmful species 

4 like poison ivy and deer ticks spreading rapidly, 

5 because they do well in the warmer, disruptive 

6 environments we're creating. The students that I 

7 was teaching didn't want to go outside because 

8 they were afraid of Lyme disease. 

9 We saw Hurricane Sandy destroying 

10 communities along the coast. Part of my job was 

11 helping pull people's houses out of the salt 

12 marshes. We found staircases, walls, chairs, 

13 people's keepsakes. Not only were the homes 

14 destroyed, the salt marshes that all the homes 

15 washed into, which normally are a buffer against 

16 hurricanes, were suffering because of all the 

17 debris.

18 When I studied groundwater in the 

19 Cascades, I learned that, already, higher 

20 temperatures are decreasing the quantity and 

21 quality of the water we rely on. The snowpack is 

22 not regenerating fully during the winter and is 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
300

1 melting more each summer, decreasing the amount 

2 of water recharging the underground aquifers. 

3 The springs that I was supposed to be serving 

4 were, in some cases, not there anymore. 

5 The water that does still flow through 

6 streams and rivers is warmer, and, therefore, 

7 less able to hold dissolved oxygen, which 

8 supports fish and invertebrate populations. 

9 Warmer water can become clogged with algae 

10 blooms, some of them toxic. In areas where the 

11 water carries dissolved minerals, warmer 

12 temperatures mean that calcium carbonate 

13 precipitates out more easily, clogging the pipes 

14 and requiring more frequent, very expensive 

15 cleanings. 

16 Here in Colorado, the mountain pine 

17 beetle is thriving under warmer temperatures, 

18 decimating our forests and killing the trees that 

19 would normally be pulling CO2 from the 

20 atmosphere. I drove through Rocky Mountain 

21 National Park last week, and was horrified 

22 because half of the mountains were gray instead 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
301

1 of green.

2 This is happening right now. The ravages 

3 that scientists have been predicting for years 

4 are no longer something that will happen soon or 

5 to our children or in the next generation. 

6 They're happening right now. This is why EPA's 

7 proposed regulations are so important. I hear 

8 people saying that they're worried that the 

9 regulations will harm the economy, reduce jobs, 

10 and other economic concerns. That's not really 

11 how it works. Economists have said, again and 

12 again, that the regulations will have a minimal 

13 economic impact. The ARDC [ph] actually 

14 suggested that job creation might go up and 

15 electricity bills down. 

16 Any negative impacts the regulations 

17 would have are far, far outweighed by the cost of 

18 inaction that's much more expensive. Right now, 

19 we're pouring money into emergency rooms for 

20 things like hurricanes, fires, lost crops, 

21 drought, all results of climate change. Instead, 

22 we need to be proactive and head off further 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
302

1 destruction, which is extremely costly.

2 These regulations are a first step in the 

3 right direction. The science is unambiguous, and 

4 there's no need for debate about whether or not 

5 to enact the regulations. The debate should be 

6 about what we do next, because these regulations 

7 are not merely enough.

8 Thank you for listening.

9 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Could I ask you 

10 to spell your name for the record, and just a 

11 reminder to everybody, when you give your 

12 testimony, to spell your name.

13 MS. FANDEL: It's C-h-l-o-e, F like 

14 Frank-a-n-d-e-l.

15 MS. BROWN: Great. Thank you. Mr. 

16 Travis? You've got to turn that one off to get 

17 the other one on.

18 MR. TRAVIS: Hi. My name is Stuart 

19 Travis, S-t-u-a-r-t T-r-a-v-i-s. I am President 

20 of the Board of Directors at the Y-W Electric Co21 op, based out of Akron, Colorado. We are a co-op 

22 with about 8,000 meters, primarily known as an 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
303

1 irrigation co-op. I'm here to speak against 

2 this.

3 If we want to look to see what will 

4 happen as we, if this regulation is implemented, 

5 all we have to do is look at what happened in 

6 Germany. Last year, the Vice Chancellor, Sigmar 

7 Gabriel, said, German's transition towards 

8 renewable energy is on the verge of failure. He 

9 went on to say the truth is that in all fields we 

10 have underestimated the complexity of 

11 implementing renewable energies.

12 Additionally, the high prices coming from 

13 renewable energies have taken their toll up on 

14 the middle class, creating chaotic supply 

15 challenges, and have directly contributed to 

16 nationwide job losses. Massive subsidies for 

17 renewable energy are hurting the economy, 

18 imposing significant regressive costs on poor and 

19 working-class energy consumers. 

20 In order to move the program forward, 

21 German's leadership is now grappling to balance 

22 renewable energy subsidies with affordable 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
304

1 energy. In an unexpected move, Germany approved 

2 the coal-fired power plant in 8 years, which is 

3 now up and running. The Germany energy company, 

4 Steag, says its 725-megawatt coal plant is just 

5 the beginning of coal's German comeback. They 

6 have ten more on the line, to combat the price of 

7 the renewables on their system.

8 If we think of Germany as the oddball, we 

9 can look at Spain. Investors News says Spain's 

10 green disaster is a lesson for America, and they 

11 labeled it as a job-killer in Spain. Calzada, a 

12 Spanish economist, said that each green job 

13 created cost Spanish taxpayers $770,000. Each 

14 wind energy cost $1.3 million to create.

15 Then, from another article out of Forbes, 

16 they called it the good and the downright ugly. 

17 The good was that, for a month, 54 percent of 

18 their energy was done by renewable, and they said 

19 the ugly -- we can skip the bad -- is their 

20 economy is now tanked because of it. As we go, 

21 they say the public objective was laudable. Who 

22 doesn't want renewable energy? Unfortunately, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
305

1 implementation was lamentable and the resulting 

2 situation is quite serious. It is, therefore, 

3 important for us to learn Spain's lessons.

4 As of February of this year, Investor 

5 News announced that Europe is going to run, not 

6 walk, away from green energy. They said that the 

7 green dreams collide with cold, economic reality. 

8 Green programs aren't creating green jobs but 

9 green unemployment, at intolerable double-digit 

10 rates. The quip in exhausted Europe these days 

11 is that before we save the plant, we have to save 

12 ourselves.

13 Now, in the United States, if you haven't 

14 been following the news, corporations are fleeing 

15 the United States at what they quote as being a 

16 blistering rate, according to Wall Street 

17 Journal. I'm fearful that implementation of 

18 this, and the resulting increase in power, will 

19 increase that rate.

20 Now, with some of the hopes I heard 

21 expressed yesterday and from earlier people 

22 today, that they believe that the United States 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
306

1 should act as a role model for the Chinese, who, 

2 I believe, are well over 25 percent of the CO2 

3 emissions in the world now. Well, recently, a 

4 document was translated by an author by the name 

5 of Gu Hung Yang [ph] -- I hope I pronounced that 

6 correctly -- and quoting from his document, this 

7 is believed to be the official Chinese policy, 

8 said, "It was a freezing cold winter was having a 

9 laugh at all the global warming theories. 

10 "If the world was warming at an ever11 quickening pace, as all these environmentalists 

12 say, then whence from such extreme cold? Where 

13 were there any doubts about global warming? It's 

14 almost as though environmentalists turn 

15 everything around, claiming that this, too, is a 

16 result of global warming. The greenhouse effect 

17 has turned into a big basket. No matter what bad 

18 thing it is, just chuck it in." That's what the 

19 Chinese believe.

20 And, in fact, they believe that the 

21 carbon warming theory here in the United States 

22 is a sinister intention of the West to block the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
307

1 development of third-world nations. The Soviets, 

2 in Pravda, believe the exact same thing.

3 Now, if you look at the total CO2 

4 emissions of the United States, and if you take 

5 the reduction plan -- am I done?

6 MS. BROWN: If you could just wrap up.

7 MR. TRAVIS: What's that?

8 MS. BROWN: If you could just wrap up.

9 MR. TRAVIS: Okay. If look at the 

10 reductions, this will cause the CO2 amount, 

11 worldwide, will affect by about 1-1/2 percent. 

12 According to the EPA, mandated to carbon is 3 

13 percent of the worldwide contribution. So you 

14 take the 1-1/2 and the 3 percent, basically this 

15 will reduce the worldwide carbon in the 

16 atmosphere by 67/10,000th of a percent.

17 This is what the Great Lakes looked like 

18 last winter, frozen over for the first time, 

19 completely, in 30 years.

20 Thank you.

21 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 

22 speakers are Jeffrey Davis and Macon Cowles. Mr. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
308

1 Davis? Do you want to go ahead?

2 MR. COWLES: I'm Macon Cowles.

3 MS. BROWN: Okay.

4 MR. COWLES: Am I next up?

5 MS. BROWN: Whichever one of you wants to 

6 go first is fine. Yeah, yours is on. Turn off 

7 that microphone.

8 MR. COWLES: So am I on?

9 ATTENDEE: You can turn it on now.

10 MS. BROWN: Then it should work.

11 MR. COWLES: Now I'm on?

12 MS. BROWN: Yes.

13 MR. COWLES: Okay. Good afternoon and 

14 thank you for coming to Denver, Colorado, to hear 

15 what the people here have to say. My name is 

16 Macon Cowles. I was the lead environmental 

17 lawyer suing Exxon for the cleanup of the Valdez 

18 oil spill a quarter of a century ago, and I 

19 realized that unless we get the metabolism of our 

20 cities right, we will destroy the natural places 

21 and the natural systems in this world, so I got 

22 into policy, and I'm now a member of the Boulder, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
309

1 Colorado City Council.

2 We're standing an important moment in 

3 time. The implementation of the carbon pollution 

4 guidelines that are proposed by EPA signals the 

5 very first step that our Federal Government has 

6 taken to rein in carbon pollution that threatens 

7 the life that we have enjoyed on this planet. 

8 It's critically important that the government act 

9 through the EPA to implement these guidelines.

10 The fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, 

11 November, was largely seen as emblematic of the 

12 thorough victory of liberal democratic 

13 governments over competing forms of organizing 

14 our society. An American historian named Frances 

15 Fukuyama wrote a book called "The End Of History 

16 and the Last Man," and he argued that what we 

17 were witnessing is not just the end of the Cold 

18 War but the end of history, as such, that is the 

19 end point of mankind's ideological evolution and 

20 the universalization of Western liberal 

21 democracy, as the final form of human government.

22 Sadly, liberal democracies have not been 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
310

1 protected, much less kind to the environment. 

2 For the most part, cities have had to fight the 

3 Federal Government to make modest advances on the 

4 environmental front while environmental actions 

5 to reduce greenhouse gases --

6 ATTENDEE: Mr. Cowles, could you move 

7 your paper from the microphone? There's a 

8 microphone on the desk here that your paper is 

9 covering. Yes, sir. That one. Sorry.

10 MR. COWLES: I'm sorry.

11 ATTENDEE: Oh, it's okay.

12 MR. COWLES: Is this the real microphone 

13 I'm speaking into?

14 [Inaudible response.]

15 MR. COWLES: I hear the voice going in 

16 and out.

17 [Inaudible comment.]

18 ATTENDEE: Sorry about that.

19 MR. COWLES: All right. So, for the most 

20 part, it's the cities that have had to fight the 

21 Federal Government to make modest advances on the 

22 environmental front, while environmental action 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
311

1 to reduce greenhouse gases at the international 

2 level has been left to conferences and work 

3 groups that have a very poor record of success. 

4 In work on international agreements, the position 

5 of major industrial sectors and that of 

6 governments in Europe and the Americas has been 

7 one and the same. 

8 The result is that the United States 

9 negotiated a week Kyoto Protocol, Brazil 

10 negotiated a weak Forest Protection Act, and 

11 Japan makes sure that the Marine Fisheries 

12 Agreement is not up to the daunting task of 

13 protecting worldwide fisheries. The progress 

14 that has been made over the last 25 years to 

15 reduce the emissions of greenhouse gases has 

16 largely been the work of local jurisdictions, 

17 cities creating islands of hope.

18 In Boulder, Denver, Fort Collins, and 14 

19 other cities in Colorado, protection of the 

20 climate is at the center of what these cities do. 

21 City leaders recognize that place-making carries 

22 with it the fiduciary responsibility to protect 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
312

1 the world in which we are making great places to 

2 live, to work, and to play. What we have done to 

3 accomplish this is by creating renewable 

4 portfolio standards, demanding that our state do 

5 that, by increasing the energy efficiency of 

6 buildings, designing transportation systems that 

7 use less energy, providing incentives to conserve 

8 energy to our people, and requiring the upgrading 

9 of commercial, industrial, and residential 

10 facilities, and even taking over, in some cases, 

11 as Boulder is doing, the electric distribution 

12 system, in order to provide energy that is less 

13 carbon intensive. In Boulder, we will drop the 

14 carbon intensity of our electric generation by 50 

15 percent on Day One.

16 Seventeen cities in Colorado, and their 

17 climate strategy, are part of an association of 

18 more than 1,000 such cities around the world who 

19 have likewise made a commitment to reduce 

20 greenhouse gases. Cities in the U.S. are 

21 underfunded and they lack the broad jurisdiction 

22 necessary to pick some of the lowest-hanging 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
313

1 fruit available to fight climate change.

2 These new guidelines empower the states 

3 to pick this low-hanging fruit. While the 

4 guidelines reflect a sea change in federal 

5 action, they are not merely common sense. They 

6 are relatively easy to achieve. Two of the four 

7 building blocks for GHG reduction, chosen by EPA, 

8 are the ones that cities and states have been 

9 using for some time, mainly increasing use of 

10 renewables and increasing energy efficiency. 

11 The other two, increasing the efficiency 

12 of fossil fuels plants and fuel-switching, are 

13 ones that are within the control of utilities 

14 that are regulated by each state. It is not even 

15 going to cost the utility industry anything, 

16 because they pass along those costs.

17 Please take this action -- this is an 

18 important occasion -- and implement these 

19 guidelines. We have to do this now, for 

20 ourselves, our descendants, and for the other 

21 marvelous creatures with whom we share this 

22 planet. We have to do this and we must.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
314

1 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Davis?

2 MR. DAVIS: Thank you for letting me 

3 speak today. My name is Jeffrey Davis. I'm 

4 going into my senior year at CSU for mechanical 

5 engineering. I'm involved with an organization 

6 on campus called the Fair Trade Organization, 

7 which has opened my eyes to ethical consumerism 

8 outside the United States. 

9 I'm involved with a spiritual development 

10 center called the Geller Center, and they focus 

11 on providing resources to the community, 

12 meditation, counseling, book groups, workshops on 

13 how to grow sustainable food, with new technology 

14 that limits water usage and just basically allows 

15 us to network with our community, just to use 

16 recycled materials to be sustainable.

17 So, this plan is very important to me, 

18 and I support it, and I just, it's -- I 

19 appreciate it. This is a step in the right 

20 direction. It seems to me that the thing that 

21 steps out the most to me is that I like not to 

22 dwell on the problem but dwell on the solutions, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
315

1 and the solution is within each other, within our 

2 communities. It's within ourselves. 

3 And this plan will ultimately be a thorn 

4 in certain regions of the United States' sides, 

5 but, at the same time, we can all adapt, we can 

6 all come to a solution that lies within us. And, 

7 at the same time, thorns build character. It 

8 hardens our skin and, in my opinion, the United 

9 States needs to build its character, and this 

10 would be a step in the right direction.

11 Thank you.

12 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 

13 speakers are Katherine Toan and Rachel Carillo, 

14 and if I could just remind folks to spell your 

15 name at the beginning of your statement, and 

16 also, just be aware of the small microphones on 

17 the tables. That's what the court reporter is 

18 using to listen to everybody's testimony. 

19 Thanks.

20 MS. CARILLO: We're going to share this 

21 mic, because that one goes in and out.

22 MS. BROWN: Okay. Great. Whichever one 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
316

1 of you wants to start, is fine.

2 MS. TOAN: Thank you for letting me speak 

3 today. My name is Katherine Toan. That's K-a-t4 h-e-r-i-n-e, and T as in Tom-o-a-n as in Nancy. 

5 I'm an environmental and natural resources 

6 attorney here in Colorado, practicing largely in 

7 oil and gas. I'm here today to discuss the 

8 immediate and long-term consequences of the EPA's 

9 proposed rule. I'm here to support the proposed 

10 rule and to additionally urge the Federal 

11 Government to end its policy of temporal 

12 discounting when concerning future human lives in 

13 the context of climate policy more generally.

14 Climate change is rapidly escalating 

15 towards an existential crisis for humanity, on 

16 that scientists have predicted will cause long17 term agricultural instability, water shortages, 

18 disease, population shifts and coastal 

19 abandonment, storms, fires, infestation, global20 scale species loss, and, of course, all of this 

21 leads to massive political disruption, conflict, 

22 and war. We are already seeing the early signs 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
317

1 of some of these, and they will be layered onto

2 our already daunting geopolitical challenges, 

3 such as overpopulation, natural resources 

4 scarcity, economic inequality, and weapons 

5 proliferation.

6 The threat or magnitude of human 

7 suffering could hardly be exaggerated and is all 

8 the more grotesque and unimaginable from where we 

9 sit, the most privileged and wealthy generation 

10 in history, condemning our children so we can set 

11 our air conditioners at 68 degrees without having 

12 to pay half a penny more per kilowatt hour.

13 Climate change is, I believe, not only 

14 the most serious problem facing humanity today 

15 but it is also one of the most intractable and 

16 complex. Like cigarettes, the thing that brings 

17 pleasures today, and that seems completely 

18 impossible to give up, is building to 

19 catastrophic effect in the future, and, like 

20 smokers, we're inclined to enjoy the moment at 

21 the expense of our very likely future -- our 

22 future, probably. Our children's future, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
318

1 definitely.

2 Our increases in energy consumption over 

3 the last 100 years or so have been without 

4 parallel in human history, and has allowed us to 

5 achieve a level of human dignity and achievement 

6 similarly unparalleled. We put a man on the 

7 moon, sent Voyager beyond the influence of our 

8 star, and connected our world into one instantly 

9 available at our fingertips. I could be in China 

10 tomorrow, just because.

11 Cheap fossil fuels have also allowed us 

12 to do many foolish things, as well. We push 

13 motorized vehicles across desert soils and 

14 tundras that take hundreds of years to heal. We 

15 spread our houses across the landscape, eating 

16 farmland and requiring even more from our 

17 vehicles. We built cities in deserts and flooded 

18 them with millions of people, demanding water to 

19 be pumped from rivers 100 miles away, and then we 

20 built golf courses and artificial lakes to 

21 entertain them. 

22 While our highest achievements will 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
319

1 always be possible, this careless and wanton 

2 devastation would not be possible if the cost of 

3 climate change were factored into the price of 

4 fossil fuels. 

5 In 1970, when we enacted the Clean Air 

6 Act, we had had the strength of character to 

7 require the old plants to keep up with new 

8 technology in a timely manner, our problems today 

9 would be smaller. Coal would have been more 

10 expensive, yes, but that expense is what 

11 incentivizes the investments in renewable 

12 technology energy research, development, and 

13 infrastructure.

14 The problem that we're discussing today 

15 is new technology versus old technology. The 

16 problem is not coal versus natural gas. New 

17 technology for coal plants allow emissions 

18 reductions of over 40 percent of the currently 

19 existing average. Natural gas burns cleanly at 

20 the plant, but does not count for upstream 

21 fugitive emissions, emissions which are often not 

22 detected but float invisibly into the air, and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
320

1 includes co-pollutants with direct human toxicity 

2 such as benzene and other VOCs.

3 Furthermore, unlike coal mines, the 

4 natural gas well pads spread out over the 

5 landscape in a patchwork of development in and 

6 around population centers, disrupting humans and 

7 ecosystems alike, over hundreds of thousands of 

8 acres. Modern fracking is only a decade old, and 

9 we know far too little about the costs to be 

10 making so many long-term infrastructure 

11 investments in it.

12 For just one example, despite industry 

13 denials and the EPA leaving its investigation in 

14 Pavillion, Wyoming, we have evidence of 

15 groundwater contamination, groundwater that 

16 Colorado will need desperately as our climate 

17 becomes drier and less predictable. 

18 As our existing infrastructure, including 

19 our legal and economic subsidies for these 

20 lethal, addictive fuels prevents us from making 

21 larger, currently achievable advances in 

22 renewable energy technology. These rules are 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
321

1 simply an important step forward towards a future 

2 where energy security and environmental security 

3 coexist. 

4 Please do not discount the future. The 

5 economics today allow this rule, but the 

6 economics of tomorrow demand it.

7 MS. BROWN: Thank you.

8 MS. CARILLO: Thank you, EPA and 

9 everyone, for the opportunity to provide comment. 

10 My name is Rachel Carillo, R-a-c-h-e-l C-a-r-i-l11 l-o, and I'm here as a concerned citizen, a lover 

12 of clean air to breathe, and an avid skier. I'm 

13 renewed to Colorado. It's taken 21 years to get 

14 back here, and I came back for the blue sky, 

15 which isn't evident today. I came back for the 

16 magnificent mountains. I came back for skiing. 

17 I came back for these great outdoors, whose 

18 recreation dollars attract more than $13 billion 

19 annually for Colorado and create more than 65,000 

20 full-time and part-time jobs in outdoor 

21 recreation.

22 I've been able to live and travel in many 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
322

1 places throughout my life, and most of these 

2 places have experienced the negative impacts of 

3 climate change, just in the last few years. 

4 Fires and floods across our country and across 

5 the world necessitate, in my opinion, resiliency 

6 and good, resilient climate policy. I have 

7 witnessed the aftermath of floods in Vernonia, 

8 Oregon, landslides in both Baltimore, Maryland, 

9 and Stowe, Vermont, fires in Washington state and 

10 Oregon state, drought in New Mexico. 

11 I've recently returned from traveling in 

12 Southeast Asia, where people of Bangkok were 

13 having to mitigate and adapt to a flood, what's 

14 called a flood economy. The recent typhoon in 

15 the Philippines, as well. The financial toll of 

16 these events are devastating. Your agency 

17 estimates, in 2012 alone, $100 billion in cost to 

18 the U.S. economy. The toll of Colorado's 2013 

19 floods had heavy economic, social, and 

20 environmental impacts, as well, with estimated --

21 pardon me. Those 10 inches of rain eclipsed the 

22 Colorado sunshine, cast a shadow on the blue sky 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
323

1 to the $2 billion in estimated damages. So it 

2 was $13 billion of state income from the great 

3 outdoors in the toll of economic and 

4 environmental damage from unusual climate 

5 activities is evident to me. 

6 I'm a skier and I'm a hiker, and I've 

7 spent a lot of time in Colorado's remarkable 

8 national forests, and I don't know if you all are 

9 aware but national forests and high alpine 

10 environments are particularly vulnerable to 

11 climate change, especially the effects, recently, 

12 of alternating drought and floor. One hundred 

13 twenty-two ski areas across the United States sit 

14 on national forest lands. 

15 There are 12 ski areas in Colorado's 

16 White River National Forest alone. Some of these 

17 ski areas have signed onto what's called a 

18 Sustainable Slopes Initiative and Climate 

19 Challenge of the National Ski Area Association, 

20 and what they've done is create targets for 

21 carbon emissions reduction, from energy 

22 efficiency measures and operations all across 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
324

1 snow-making, building infrastructure, and my 

2 personal favorite, transportation energy 

3 efficiency and emissions targets.

4 As a recent resident of Summit County and 

5 a rider of the Summit Stage Bus, I was so happy 

6 to learn how this route, this bus route that 

7 services Arapahoe Basin, Keystone, Copper, and 

8 Breckenridge ski areas, and the towns of Frisco 

9 and Silverthorne, provides the opportunity for 

10 riders -- Coloradans and tourists -- to save 

11 approximately $4,800 pounds of carbon emissions, 

12 per person, annually, just by literally getting 

13 on the bus.

14 Twenty-one years ago, I got on the bus of 

15 this climate change and clean air ride. I took 

16 the Green Pledge when I graduated from the 

17 University of Colorado at Boulder, and now I'm 

18 renewed to Colorado and I support EPA's proposed 

19 targets to help bring back our blue sky. I just 

20 with that it were brought back today.

21 Thank you again for the opportunity to 

22 speak.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
325

1 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 

2 speakers are Mary Gail Sullivan and Tyler Hamman. 

3 Ms. Sullivan, if you want to go ahead and get 

4 started.

5 MS. SULLIVAN: All right. Thank you.

6 MS. BROWN: The middle mic seems to be 

7 working better, if you guys do want to share 

8 that, just press the button to turn it on.

9 MS. SULLIVAN: Good afternoon. My name 

10 is -- is it on? My name is Mary Gail Sullivan. 

11 I'm the Manager of Environmental Permitting and 

12 Compliance for Northwestern Energy in Butte, 

13 Montana. Northwestern is an investor-owned 

14 utility. We serve approximately 673,000 

15 customers in Montana, South Dakota, and Nebraska. 

16 Our current base load of approximately 950 

17 megawatts is supplied by a mixture of owned 

18 resources and market purchases, made up on a 

19 consolidated basis of 73 percent coal, 10 percent 

20 wind, 1 percent natural gas, and 16 percent 

21 hydro.

22 Northwestern Energy appreciate this 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
326

1 opportunity to provide comments on the proposed 

2 rule setting state-specific carbon dioxide 

3 emission rate goals from existing electric 

4 generating units. The rule, as proposed, could 

5 have significant economic impact on our customers 

6 in Montana and South Dakota. Due to the limited 

7 time today, I will focus my comments on issues 

8 concerning our South Dakota operations.

9 Northwestern generally supports the EPA 

10 proposal to put the states in the driver's seat 

11 in choosing how to meet the proposed carbon 

12 dioxide emission rate reductions, and appreciates 

13 the attempt to introduce flexibility into the 

14 process. However, it appears, from our initial 

15 analysis of the proposal, that flexibility is 

16 limited. 

17 For example, for states like South 

18 Dakota, the reliance on Building Block 2, 

19 redispatch of existing natural gas combined-cycle 

20 plants to set South Dakota goals, leaves few, if 

21 any, options other than redispatch for the state 

22 to employ to meet those interim and final goals. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
327

1 We believe the use of redispatch in South 

2 Dakota is technically unfeasible for the 

3 following reasons. South Dakota has one coal4 fired electric generating unit and one natural 

5 gas combined-cycle plant. Use of the redispatch 

6 building block results in a singular impact on 

7 the coal-fired EGU, the Big Stone Plant. The 

8 assumed redispatch increasing the capacity factor 

9 of the single natural gas combined-cycle plant to 

10 70 percent, would reduce net generation at Big 

11 Stone by 1.9 million megawatt-hours, resulting in 

12 reducing the Big Stone Plant capacity to just 23 

13 percent. 

14 The minimum operating load of Big Stone 

15 is approximately 40 percent of the maximum load. 

16 To achieve a 23-percent capacity factor would 

17 require the plant be offline at least half the 

18 year, this at a plant that is completing a $400 

19 million upgrade to address the regional haze 

20 rules.

21 The Big Stone Plant is jointly owned by 

22 Northwestern Energy and two other companies. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
328

1 Each co-owner relies on Big Stone as a year-round 

2 base load resource to economically and reliably 

3 serve customers in South Dakota, North Dakota, 

4 Minnesota, and Montana. The Big Stone owners and 

5 the natural gas combined-cycle plant have no 

6 contractual relationship, do not share the same 

7 retail loads, do not have the same firm 

8 transmission rights. Each Big Stone owner has a 

9 firm transmission right from Big Stone to their 

10 respective loads. 

11 The natural gas combined-cycle plant has 

12 a firm transmission right to serve its loads. 

13 These plants are committed and dispatched by 

14 different entities, with unique commitment and 

15 dispatch processes. Big Stone operates in the 

16 MISO centralized market. For two co-owners, MISO 

17 economically dispatches their share of Big Stone 

18 while Northwestern Energy schedules our share to 

19 serve our South Dakota load. The natural gas 

20 combined-cycle plant is currently dispatched by 

21 the integrated system and will be dispatched by 

22 the Southwest Power Pool beginning in 2015.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
329

1 I hope you can see by these examples how 

2 technically difficult, if not infeasible, the 

3 generic application of Building Block 2 is to the 

4 state of South Dakota. Northwestern Energy 

5 requests that EPA revisit the methodology used to 

6 determine the state goals, and consider the 

7 state-specific circumstances. The use of 

8 inaccurate assumptions to set goals results in 

9 unreasonable limits on certain EGUs.

10 Thank you for this opportunity. 

11 Northwestern will be submitting written comments.

12 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Mr. Hamman?

13 MR. HAMMAN: Good afternoon. My name is 

14 Tyler Hamman. That's T-y-l-e-r H-a-m-m-a-n. I'm 

15 the Director of Government Affairs for the 

16 Lignite Energy Council, based in Bismarck, North 

17 Dakota. I appreciate the opportunity to provide 

18 comments today about the EPA's proposed Clean 

19 Power Plan to regulate carbon dioxide emissions 

20 for existing fossil fuel power plants. 

21 The mission of the Lignite Energy Council 

22 is to preserve, protect, and enhance the lignite 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
330

1 coal industry to allow for the continued use of 

2 our region's 800-year supply of lignite coal to 

3 generate electricity, as well as produce 

4 synthetic natural gas and other valuable 

5 byproducts.

6 The Lignite Energy Council is concerned 

7 about the EPA's proposed rule because of its 

8 impact on the use of lignite coal to produce 

9 affordable and reliable electricity. North 

10 Dakota enjoys some of the lowest electricity 

11 rates in the nation because of our abundant 

12 lignite resources. North Dakota produces and 

13 utilizes approximately 30 million tons of lignite 

14 coal annually, providing nearly 80 percent of the 

15 electricity in the state and exporting 

16 electricity to the region.

17 At the same time, we are one of only 

18 seven clear air states that meet all of the 

19 federal ambient air quality standards. Clearly, 

20 clean air and coal-fired electricity are not 

21 mutually exclusive, and if the Clean Power Plan 

22 were simply about clean power, then we can safely 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
331

1 say that our industry has already met that goal.

2 However, carbon dioxide does not share 

3 the characteristics of pollutants or emissions 

4 such as sulfur, ash, mercury, et cetera, that the 

5 EPA has traditionally regulated. These are 

6 pollutants that are trace elements in the coal, 

7 for which controls can be implemented at the 

8 power plant. 

9 Since CO2 is the majority byproduct of 

10 burning fossil fuels, the only way to achieve 

11 power reductions at the power plant are through 

12 increased efficient, yet to be proven capture 

13 technology, or by simply reducing power output. 

14 With respect to efficiency, our industry has 

15 already invested over $2 billion and continues to 

16 spend $100 million annually to increase 

17 efficiency and reduce emissions from their 

18 electrical generating units.

19 Yet, in the proposed rule, the EPA again 

20 gets ahead of this current state of technology by 

21 assuming that all coal-fired units can achieve a 

22 6-percent reduction in CO2 emissions through 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
332

1 efficiency improvements, even as these units add 

2 energy-intensive and/or efficiency-reducing 

3 controls to comply with other EPA rules. 

4 Furthermore, the EPA has provided no basis for 

5 the 6-percent number chosen for the rule, or 

6 cites any examples of plants that have been able 

7 to achieve that reduction through existing 

8 technology. Most of the straightforward and 

9 cost-effective measures to improve efficiency at 

10 power plants have already been implemented.

11 The Lignite Energy Council is also very 

12 concerned with the reliability impacts of the 

13 proposed rule. North Dakota already gets 16 

14 percent of its power from wind, and it has a 

15 potential for much more. However, integrating 

16 intermittent resources under the grid remains a 

17 challenge. Coal plants were designed to run at a 

18 constant pace. The start-stop, slow down-speed 

19 up electric output associated with intermitted 

20 renewable energy production can greatly impact 

21 the efficiency and durability of coal-fired units 

22 that are forced to load follow.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
333

1 In short, while wind certainly plays an 

2 important part in our region's portfolio, we are 

3 nearing a crossroads with respect to the amount 

4 of wind that can be plugged into the grid without 

5 sacrificing reliability and efficiency. The 

6 remaining building blocks in the proposed rule 

7 present similar challenges with respect to 

8 infrastructure and management of the grid.

9 Given all of these factors and the complexity of 

10 the rule of the timeline for implementation is 

11 simply not possible. 

12 Due to the overarching nature of the rule 

13 and the overlap that it back many different 

14 governmental jurisdictions, including other 

15 states, if they choose to participate in a 

16 regional plan, 1 year, and even 2 years, is 

17 simply not sufficient. 

18 The EPA has yet to answer some very basic 

19 yet very important questions, such as how 

20 renewables in one state might be credited to 

21 another, or how the emissions from power 

22 generated by one state but exported to another 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
334

1 are dealt with. Not knowing the answers to these 

2 basic threshold questions until EPA issues its 

3 final rule, even if then, makes it very difficult 

4 for states to even begin developing 

5 implementation plans.

6 There are far too many issues to cover 

7 with the proposed rule today. The Lignite Energy 

8 Council will be filing detailed comments with the 

9 EPA by the October deadline, and we look forward 

10 to working with the agency as this process moves 

11 forward. Reducing CO2 emissions is a worthy 

12 objective that we are glad to share. However, it 

13 is not a hyperbole to say that the proposed rule 

14 is entirely different from any Clean Air Act 

15 regulation we have faced before.

16 Affordable and reliable coal-fired 

17 electricity is instrumental to achieving our 

18 standard of living and advantage in the world, 

19 and the EPA needs to work with us on a practical 

20 regulation that will not sacrifice our ability to 

21 continue using this abundant resource.

22 To close, I'm just going to point out 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
335

1 that if there is any nation in the world that is 

2 utilizing its coal resources in the most 

3 efficient and effective manner, it's us. Carbon 

4 dioxide emissions from the U.S. coal fleet only 

5 represent 3 percent of global greenhouse gas 

6 emissions. Reducing emissions from coal plants 

7 by 30 percent, as EPA requires, comes with a high 

8 cost for economy and our business and residential 

9 consumers, with virtually no climate-related 

10 environmental benefits. We should keep this fact 

11 in mind as we consider the values and virtues of

12 this rules, and not punish the good actors.

13 Thank you.

14 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next speakers 

15 are John Horner and John Backlund.

16 MR. HORNER: My name is John Horner. J17 o-h-n H-o-r-n-e-r. I'm a professor of 

18 psychology at Colorado College, and one of my 

19 areas of specialty is in gang theory, which looks 

20 at how individuals behave in the context of 

21 others. Gang theory was developed during the 

22 Cold War, and it cannot be credited with winning 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
336

1 that war. It can be credited with at least not 

2 allowing ourselves to blow ourselves up.

3 At present, climate change can be solved 

4 with available technologies. The proposals 

5 before us represent small but necessary steps to 

6 address this crisis. All that is required is the 

7 will to act, and that is the real crisis, whether 

8 we will act in a timely way, so as to forestall, 

9 for future generations, an environmental 

10 catastrophe.

11 In gang theory terms, the climate crisis 

12 is a tragedy of the commons with a moral hazard. 

13 A tragedy of the commons is a dilemma in which 

14 individuals act in their own best interest, but 

15 makes the situation worse for everyone, in the 

16 end. It is also known as the hole in Adam Smith's 

17 hand. In this case, by continuing to burn cheap 

18 fossil fuels, we produce greenhouse gases that 

19 make the prospects worse for humanity overall.

20 By themselves, tragedy of the commons are 

21 easily recognized and humanity has developed ways 

22 to deal with them. Indeed, the creation of the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
337

1 EPA is a recognition of the tragedy of the 

2 commons-type problems, and the EPA's mandate is 

3 to address these kinds of problems. What poses a 

4 greater risk for humanity, for the generations 

5 sitting in this room, is the moral hazard 

6 component of climate change. A moral hazard is a 

7 situation in which one can shift the cost of 

8 one's own actions to someone else. They are the 

9 freeloaders, the gate-crashers, anyone who does 

10 not face the full consequences of their actions.

11 By our inaction on climate change, we 

12 here today will not face the full consequences of 

13 our inactions, but we will instead shift them to 

14 future generations, and this is where the true 

15 dilemma to this problem lies. Through inactions, 

16 we are threatened to shirk our duty to our 

17 children and to our children's children.

18 To those who say the economic 

19 consequences for acting are too great, let me 

20 point out three things. First, the economic 

21 consequences of our inactions to future 

22 generations are far greater. Doing nothing now 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
338

1 means future generations will have to spend far 

2 more combating this crisis. 

3 Second, just because we stop burning

4 fossil fuels does not mean that we will no longer 

5 need coal, oil, or natural gas. The revolution 

6 of material sciences, which is now taking place, 

7 primarily rely on carbon. In the future, we will 

8 still need coal, oil, and natural gas. We just 

9 won't need to burn them. Instead, we will make 

10 things from them.

11 Finally, economic history shows that 

12 economic transformation comes through innovation. 

13 The more we rely on burning fossil fuels, 

14 technologies that are now more than a century 

15 old, the more we hold ourselves back from the 

16 technological innovations of the future. The 

17 sooner we cast off fossil fuels as a primary 

18 means for energy production, the sooner we will 

19 enjoy the economic transformations that come with 

20 innovations in energy production. Just the 

21 slightest bit of imagination allows us to 

22 recognize not only the necessity of these 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
339

1 proposals, for our children and their children, 

2 but also the economic advantages for our own 

3 generation. 

4 Part of the American spirit is not to 

5 shirk our duty. Thomas Paine said it best. "If 

6 there must be trouble, let it come in my time, 

7 that my children may have peace." It is the duty 

8 for those here today to solve the climate crisis 

9 now, not to pass that burden on to our children.

10 Thank you.

11 MS. BROWN: Mr. Backlund.

12 MR. BACKLUND: Is this the microphone 

13 that works?

14 MR. HORNER: This one obviously does.

15 MS. BROWN: Go ahead and turn that one 

16 off and try the other, because the issue is that 

17 it's trying to adjust to the volume of people's 

18 voices, so that the output is consistent, which 

19 is clearly causing some difficulties. But we 

20 were told if you tried to speak in an even 

21 volume, it should work.

22 MR. BACKLUND: Okay. I'll give it a go. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
340

1 I think I can be heard.

2 MS. BROWN: Thank you.

3 MR. BACKLUND: Okay. Good afternoon. My 

4 name is John Backlund, B-a-c-k-l-u-n-d. I live 

5 at 287 Harrison Street in Denver, where I've been 

6 a resident in the state for 30 years. I'm a 

7 business financing consultant. My education is 

8 bachelor of arts degree in political science and 

9 economics. 

10 You see, I'm not a technical or a 

11 scientific person per se, given all the expertise 

12 you're going to hear today. I also have an MBA 

13 from the Kellogg School of Business in Evanston, 

14 Illinois, and I basically am here because it's a 

15 great opportunity for me to express myself and 

16 say that, much to our -- I agree with our 

17 previous speaker that climate change is the 

18 greatest threat, existential threat to humanity. 

19 It's been well established. 

20 The scientific community ranks it as a 

21 greater threat than being hit by an asteroid on 

22 this planet, or massive plagues or nuclear 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
341

1 annihilation. That is our biggest threat, and 

2 the perspective I'm going to give today is a 

3 little bit different. It's kind of why I've --

4 what got me here, and my life's history. I'm

5 going to tell you some stories, I think, maybe 

6 before some of your times. 

7 So back when I was in college, in the 

8 late 1960s, there was a lot of protesting going 

9 on in the streets. One of the types of protests, 

10 unlike the, of course, war protests, was against 

11 global warming, and I saw this and didn't know 

12 what it really was, and there were placards and 

13 signs that some of the protesters carried around, 

14 that had the phrase, "Eradicate the internal 

15 combustion engine," which seemed, obviously, 

16 awful extreme.

17 I was taking some sciences classes and I 

18 asked some of my professors about, "What is this? 

19 What is this about?" and they said it's a real 

20 threat, but it's probably not necessary at that 

21 time, 45 years ago, to consider eradicating the 

22 internal combustion engine, but we had to do 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
342

1 something over the next few decades to resolve 

2 this issue.

3 So, over the coming next few decades, as 

4 I got in the business world, I was watching and 

5 reading about it and saw these, a modicum of 

6 efforts to address climate change -- you know, 

7 turn up our thermostats in the summer and turn 

8 them down in the winter. I remember President 

9 Carter wearing a cardigan sweater. But it was 

10 more relating to the source of our oil coming 

11 from unstable political climates, or political 

12 entities.

13 In the '80s, there were the mileage 

14 mandates for cars. In the '90s, my experience 

15 was that, I knew we were getting late in the 

16 game, and we had to make changes, of course, in 

17 which you're proposed today, your proposing, or 

18 your proposed regulations. I bought a car and 

19 told friends of mine, it was probably the last 

20 internal combustion engine, gasoline-driven car 

21 that I would buy. They looked at me and said, 

22 "What are you talking about?" Some of them did, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
343

1 and I was surprised that didn't now. 

2 So as the next decade turned, it was 

3 really getting to be a serious issue, that we 

4 weren't addressing this irreversible problem, so 

5 I got involved in a group here in Denver, an 

6 entrepreneurial group that was dealing with 

7 creating clean energy technologies, and I could 

8 quickly see that there was plenty of technology 

9 around to address this issue, and it was unfair 

10 for really clean energy sources to compete on an 

11 even keel with dirty energy sources, and it's 

12 always, always cheaper to be dirty than it is to 

13 be clean.

14 So I could see it was public policy, so 

15 I'm not on the board of a group here in Colorado 

16 called Conservation Colorado, and I think we've 

17 taken a strong position in favor of the proposed 

18 regulations. I think after waiting 40 years, 

19 it's high time that we do something. We're past 

20 overdue, and I really applaud what you're doing 

21 and what you're proposing, and look forward to 

22 the enactment of these regulations.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
344

1 And I'm a free-market, low-tax, less2 government Republican, but I think we need 

3 aggressive public policy, because the true cost 

4 of carbon is not reflected in our free market 

5 economy. Until that price of carbon -- we'd love 

6 to see carbon taxes, but in lieu of carbon taxes 

7 and cap and trade, we're going to have to do 

8 mandates, such as this one. So I think this is 

9 the proper way to go, and I look forward to your 

10 enactment, and I thank you for your time, and 

11 applaud you all for listening to 400 people in 

12 the last several days.

13 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next two 

14 speakers are Maddie Lips and Mary Lou Church.

15 MS. LIPS: Hi. My name is Maddie Lips. 

16 I've grown up in Colorado and been an athlete in 

17 the sport of rowing, or crew, here in Colorado 

18 and also at Yale University in Connecticut. I 

19 just returned from China where I was competing in 

20 an international rowing competition. When we 

21 first went out on water to practice for our race, 

22 that air was so heavy with smog, and even taking 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
345

1 a few strokes I could feel the pollution in my 

2 lungs, as I tried to breathe. 

3 I thought back to the clear mountain air 

4 in Colorado, where I grew up. But how long will 

5 our relatively clean air last if we don't prevent 

6 power plants from emitting carbon pollution 

7 unchecked, and how can we expect other countries 

8 to change their emissions if we don't lead the 

9 way?

10 As a rower, I've come to love being 

11 outside on water, and, of course, breathing is a 

12 fundamental component of any sport. But as a 

13 person, preserving our clean air and our future 

14 on this planet has to be something that takes 

15 policy priority in our country. We have to act 

16 if we are to clean up the pollution that is 

17 threatening our air quality, in Colorado and the 

18 U.S. I've seen what happens when air quality is 

19 not protected, and I realize that we only realize 

20 how much we cherish clean air once we've lost it.

21 I strongly support limits on carbon 

22 pollution from power plants, and urge the EPA to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
346

1 act to clean up our air.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. BROWN: Thank you. If you could turn 

4 that microphone off.

5 MS. CHURCH: I can't hear you.

6 MR. RISLEY: Yeah, push the middle 

7 button, and then if you wouldn't mind turning 

8 hers off.

9 MS. BROWN: Great. Yeah, go ahead.

10 MS. CHURCH: Thank you very much. My 

11 name is Mary Lou Church. Do I have to spell it? 

12 Okay. M-a-r-y L-o-u C-h-u-r-c-h. I'm 86 years 

13 old. I live in Salida, Colorado, and I thank you 

14 for giving me an opportunity to speak today. 

15 Nineteen years ago, I had a massive heart attack. 

16 After Code Blue three times on the operating 

17 table, a triple bypass, and a 6-week hospital 

18 stay, part of that being in a basement room next 

19 to the morgue, I have 35 percent of my heart 

20 working. I made it through all that.

21 I take good care of myself. I know 

22 because of my age and my heart, I need to be 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
347

1 extra aware of what I do and how I live. I watch 

2 my diet, I exercise, I volunteer in my community, 

3 I'm an activist. I participate in events that 

4 are important to me, and I care. I care about 

5 what happens to my family, my friends, my 

6 community, my country, my world -- all of it.

7 Even though I have control over much of 

8 my life, there are things I cannot control, like 

9 the temperature of the air. I am very much 

10 affected by heat. When it gets hot, I have what 

11 my daughter calls a meltdown. I get light12 headed, I can't breathe, and I can't think 

13 clearly. It really is kind of a crazy effect. 

14 My heart or my lungs don't like it.

15 As the temperatures are raising because 

16 of CO2 emissions, these episodes happen more 

17 frequently. I can't do my exercise walk as 

18 frequently as I want and need to. I can't 

19 volunteer and participate in events that I want 

20 to more often. As you know, the last 2 years 

21 were the fourth hottest and the hottest years in 

22 record in this country. Statistics show that 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
348

1 this heat causes more problems for the elderly, 

2 the young, the sick, and the poor, we who have 

3 the least power to do anything about it.

4 Some say warming temperatures will mean 

5 fewer deaths, but reports show these reductions 

6 are not expected to compensate for the increase 

7 in heat-related deaths. The increase of CO2 and 

8 methane in the atmosphere is affecting our 

9 environment. The Clean Power Plan is a step 

10 forward in helping to reduce the devastation. 

11 I urge you to pass the Clean Power Plan. 

12 It is imperative we work to save our environment 

13 and our planet. Please act on this most 

14 important issue.

15 Thank you.

16 MS. BROWN: Thank you.

17 MS. CHURCH: If you have any questions or 

18 anything.

19 MS. BROWN: No. We really appreciate 

20 your testimony, though. Thank you.

21 MS. CHURCH: Sorry. Good.

22 MS. BROWN: Thank you. No, there are no 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
349

1 questions.

2 MS. CHURCH: Thank you.

3 MS. BROWN: Our next speaker is Peter 

4 Wolf.

5 MR. WOLF: Good afternoon. My name is 

6 Peter Wolf. I'm a Colorado native and an 

7 educator, and I'm here as a concerned American 

8 citizen and an educator, and a Colorado native, 

9 to voice my support today for the necessary and 

10 immediate action on climate change and the 

11 dangerous carbon polluting that's the cause of 

12 it. 

13 Climate change is no longer some 

14 questionable theory that may or may not be a real 

15 problem, that we can maybe address in the future. 

16 It's happening now, and it's affecting everybody. 

17 We have a moral obligation to our children, our 

18 grandchildren, and future generations to leave 

19 them a climate, a planet, an environment that 

20 they can enjoy a decent lifestyle without being 

21 poisoned.

22 I strongly support the Environmental 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
350

1 Protection Agency in using its authority, under 

2 the Clean Air Act, which was reaffirmed by the 

3 Supreme Court, to protect our health and well 

4 being from the dangerous carbon pollution from 

5 our nation's power plants. U.S. power plants are 

6 responsible for over 30 percent of the carbon 

7 pollution in our country that is fueling climate 

8 change, endangering our health, and affecting our 

9 food supply. Every day power plants are dumping 

10 dangerous amounts of carbon pollution into the 

11 air, with complete disregard to the impact on the 

12 health of humankind and Planet Earth, and it's 

13 imperative that we act now.

14 According to the American Lung 

15 Association, almost half of all Americans are 

16 breathing unhealthy levels of dirty air, and 

17 under the Clean Power Plan, power plant carbon 

18 pollution can be cut by 30 percent by 2030, from 

19 2005 levels, which will result in huge benefits 

20 for our health, the economy, and the planet. I 

21 know that the EPA calculates it by 2030. We can 

22 avoid up to 6,600 premature deaths every year, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
351

1 150,000 child asthma attacks, 3,300 heart 

2 attacks, and 490,000 days of missed work or 

3 school.

4 So these safeguards are going to provide 

5 opportunities for investments in efficient and 

6 renewable energy sources like wind and solar, 

7 creating the jobs of the future and building an 

8 energy infrastructure that's going to be safer, 

9 healthier, and more environmentally friendly.

10 So this rule is a step in the right 

11 direction, addressing the greatest threat of our 

12 time. Carbon pollution is fueling more frequent 

13 severe and extreme weather, and causing 

14 temperatures to rise across the globe, and I know 

15 that just in 2011 to 2013, damages from extreme 

16 weather events have exceeded $200 billion, and 

17 those are costs that every taxpayer has to share.

18 So from the devastating floods here in 

19 Colorado last September, to the ongoing drought 

20 in the Southwest, we're already experiencing the 

21 effects of climate change on our lives, the lives 

22 of all of humankind, our food supply, and the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
352

1 economy.

2 There is a 19th century philosopher named 

3 Arthur Schopenhauer, who found that all truth 

4 passes through three stages. First it's 

5 ridiculed. Secondly, it's violently opposed, and 

6 lastly and finally, it's accepted by the masses 

7 as being self-evident. Well, according to 97 

8 percent of all climate scientists, the link 

9 between carbon pollution and climate change is no 

10 longer open for debate. It's a done deal. 

11 Countless studies and reports, including 

12 this year's latest Intergovernmental Panel on 

13 Climate Change and National Climate Assessment 

14 have put this issue to rest. The truth that 

15 climate change is real is clearly self-evident, 

16 and now is the time to take meaningful action, 

17 before it's too late.

18 Thank you for your time.

19 MS. BROWN: Thank you. At this time, 

20 we're going to take another break, and we'll 

21 reconvene in this room at 4:30.

22 [Recess taken from 4:20 to 4:35 p.m.]

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
353

1 MS. BROWN: We just are waiting for the 

2 next set of speaker names that we can call, and 

3 then we'll get started, so it should only be 

4 another minute or two.

5 Our next two speakers are Connie Luke and 

6 Don Scrimgeour.

7 I'm sorry. Just to kind of refresh, for 

8 anybody who hasn't been in, I'm going to call two 

9 at a time -- well, at this point we don't have 

10 that many -- but when your name is called, come 

11 up. Both speakers will come up, sit in one of 

12 the seats, and take turns speaking. You'll have 

13 5 minutes. The timer will indicate. When it's 

14 green, you have 5 minutes left. When you have 1 

15 minute left, it will go to yellow, and then when 

16 you have about 15 seconds left, it will flash red 

17 and then a buzzer will go off.

18 Mr. Scrimgeour, did you want to come up, too?

19 And only one of those microphones can be 

20 on at a time, so when you're done speaking, just 

21 press the button to turn it off. They're both 

22 off now, so you'll have to push the button to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
354

1 turn it on.

2 MS. LUKE: Okay. Do you want to go 

3 first?

4 MR. SCRIMGEOUR: No. You can.

5 MS. LUKE: Okay. Can you hear me now?

6 MS. BROWN: Yes.

7 MS. LUKE: Okay. Hi. My name is Connie 

8 Luke, and I'm here today to speak in support of 

9 EPA's plan to reduce carbon pollution.

10 When I was growing up on a farm in Iowa, 

11 I heard a lot of messages that helped form my 

12 belief that everyone is responsible to be good 

13 caretakers of the earth. Smokey the Bear said 

14 "Only you can prevent forest fires." There are 

15 no litterbug signs along the highway. Chief Iron 

16 Eyes Cody told me, "People start pollution. 

17 People can stop it." And the indigenous peoples' 

18 website says, "Treat the Earth well. We don't 

19 inherit the earth from our ancestors. We borrow 

20 it from our children."

21 Today we don't see a lot of trash on the 

22 roads, Cleveland's Cuyahoga River isn't burning, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
355

1 and new houses are no longer built with lead 

2 paint and asbestos. We have made some progress 

3 in treating our Earth well. But when I look at 

4 the Front Range foothills from my home in 

5 Loveland, I often see how much work is needed to 

6 reduce air pollution. That brown haze that 

7 obscures my view is not what I want my daughter 

8 and granddaughter breathing. Coughing used to be 

9 something that you heard in the wintertime, when 

10 the flu was going around. Today it's impossible 

11 to go anywhere without hearing people cough.

12 Opponents of the EPA are going to say, 

13 undoubtedly, that it's too expensive and it's 

14 impossible to meet the goals, that we are all 

15 against the government getting in their way, and 

16 I'm sure they'll say it's going to cost jobs. I 

17 remember the same arguments being made against 

18 the addition of catalytic converters to reduce 

19 air pollution, and against adding safety belts to 

20 reduce auto deaths. Those changes were going to 

21 be too expensive. They were going to put the car 

22 makers out of business and people wouldn't be 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
356

1 able to afford those big, fancy cars. Yet, today 

2 there are lots of cars sold, and when you hear 

3 about an accident, it's usually the people not 

4 wearing seat belts who end up dead.

5 President Kennedy set a goal for us to 

6 send a man to the moon and bring him back alive. 

7 It sounded impossible to a lot of people, but we 

8 did it. Last fall, our governor set a goal for 

9 all the major roads damaged by the September 

10 floods to be repaired and back in service by 

11 December 1st. Remembering how long it took to 

12 repair Highway 34 after the '76 flood, I thought 

13 that was an impossible goal. Yet, through the 

14 great teamwork between private, municipal, state, 

15 and federal resources, those roads were open 

16 before December 1st.

17 It's time now to stop the frightened 

18 defeatist refusal to clean up our air and step up 

19 to our responsibility to do what we can to lead 

20 the world in improving the quality of the Earth's 

21 atmosphere for future generations. I'm tired of 

22 hearing the whining about what we can't do. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
357

1 Things are only impossible until we do them.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Press the button.

4 MR. SCRIMGEOUR: Hi. My name is Don 

5 Scrimgeour. I live in Boulder, and what brings 

6 me here is I've been doing environmental 

7 consulting work for much of my life, and the 

8 current conditions that I see happening around me 

9 frighten me more than anything I have seen in the 

10 past, and I'm concerned that we haven't been 

11 taking enough action to deal with the 

12 circumstances, and I'm here, definitely, in favor 

13 of the proposed rule controlling power plan 

14 emissions.

15 I've worked in the past both for 

16 government industry. It's always been my goal to 

17 tell the truth, whatever it was presented with, 

18 which often boils down to telling what is going 

19 gone and how you need to accept and adapt to it. 

20 I represent only my own opinions in this 

21 particular presentation.

22 Last year, I left my house in Boulder to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
358

1 go get a Shop-Vac for one of my brothers, who 

2 owned a house, whose basement was being flooded. 

3 The floor was pouring in through the sump pump 

4 area in the house, and so there were no Shop-Vacs 

5 left in the city, so I was trying to leave the 

6 city to go and find one for him. I'd made a 

7 connection off of I-25 and 135th. 

8 On my way, it turns out that the entire 

9 city was closed. Every exit out of the city was 

10 blocked, so I ended up driving in circles. The 

11 part of my car that is the protective thing 

12 underneath the engine started acting like a scoop 

13 and was pushing water, and it was just kind of 

14 scaring me that I better stop the car and get 

15 out. 

16 So I got out, started to walk home, and 

17 on Baseline Road, which is a major thoroughfare 

18 through Boulder, it ended up being a lake, and me 

19 and several other people were walking along, and 

20 all of us started going down in one direction. 

21 It was no longer passable, so I started coming 

22 back, and I went by the Williams Village student 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
359

1 towers, and the water was coming at me in like 4-

2 foot heights, and what had been flat ground 

3 previously was now like a rushing flood. And all 

4 the newscasts say don't walk into rushing water, 

5 but there was no choice. I was surrounded and I 

6 was trapped in the middle of it.

7 I then, as I was trying to exit, I came 

8 to a bridge, an overpass, over what had been a 

9 creek, and the water was now about 4 feet above 

10 that bridge, where in the past it had been 

11 probably 8 or 10 feet below. So, I ultimately 

12 made it through, but just that experience alone 

13 gave me a personal sense of what this means, in 

14 addition to talking to people in Lyons, whose 

15 houses, at one time, sat on the river edge, and 

16 now the location of the house is now a river, 

17 where the house itself has been obviously 

18 removed, and the course of the river has changed 

19 its path, in addition to a lot of people going 

20 through the experience of having sewage and other 

21 kinds of detrimental stuff flowing through their 

22 houses.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
360

1 So, you know, we, in this country have 

2 not taken a stand on this because these changes 

3 are gigantic that we're looking at, both with 

4 what we need to do to deal with global warming, 

5 and what the consequences could potentially be. 

6 So my sense is that if we don't act, things are 

7 going to get increasingly worse, and it's going 

8 to be increasingly difficult to deal with things 

9 the way they've been in the past, in terms of 

10 food production, in terms of dealing with sea 

11 level rise, and the list is almost endless.

12 So my thoughts are that wherever we 

13 start, we need to begin, and I know it's 

14 difficult to relate to cause and effect on a 

15 global scale like we're dealing with, but people 

16 are beginning to pin down the relationship 

17 between cause and effect, essentially, and using 

18 large data sets, we're getting able to pin down 

19 events, a single event attribution is becoming an 

20 increasingly possible process. There is an 

21 organization called Climate Corporation.

22 And, so, in closing, I think the proposed 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
361

1 rules are a good deal for the opposition, and I 

2 think they're a good start for the proponents, 

3 and I wish you luck.

4 MS. BROWN: Thank you.

5 MR. SCRIMGEOUR: Thanks. The next two 

6 speakers are Shakti and Jeffrey Yen.

7 MS. BROWN: You hit the button to turn 

8 that mic off. Now you can turn the other one on.

9 SHAKTI: My name is Shakti and I'm on 

10 Lakewood City Council, and I'm here today 

11 speaking on my own behalf.

12 How does global warming affect Lakewood? 

13 So far this year, my garden has been hailed on 

14 five times, in the last 3 years, the tornado 

15 sirens have directed me to the basement three 

16 times, and during the flooding, Bear Creek Lake 

17 Park, one of the major parks in Lakewood, flooded 

18 under 70 feet of water. That cost us hundreds of 

19 thousands of dollars, but it was a success story 

20 because the dam successfully held the waters, so 

21 the neighborhoods downstream did not flood.

22 We have done a lot of planning around 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
362

1 extreme water events and we will continue to do 

2 that. We also have been taking steps to address 

3 the causes of global warming. We've looked at 

4 the efficiency of our buildings to reduce carbon 

5 emissions and save money, and just Monday we 

6 voted to purchase 274, I think, kilowatts of 

7 solar electricity over the next 20 years.

8 The problems that global warming creates 

9 are created on the ground, in real practical way 

10 that we experience, and that is why cities have 

11 been taking action, even though we know that if 

12 we act alone it won't work. And so that is why 

13 it's important that the Federal Government also 

14 take action to level the playing field but also 

15 to address global warming, because, ultimately, a 

16 lot of the costs are going to be borne by local 

17 jurisdictions.

18 So I'm here today to support the Clean 

19 Power Plan.

20 MS. BROWN: Thank you. If you could turn 

21 your mic off then, so that one's on.

22 MR. YEN: Thank you for the opportunity 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
363

1 to speak about the proposed Clean Power Plan. My 

2 name is Jeff Yen. I have a Ph.D. in atmospheric 

3 science and I did climate research for 12 years. 

4 Even though we've already learned enough to know 

5 that humans are causing climate change, I started 

6 to see that science alone was not enough. I 

7 began to explore what actually moves us to take 

8 real action against carbon pollution. So now, 

9 I'm no longer a climate scientist. Today, I'm 

10 here to share why I, myself, am moved to support 

11 the EPA's Clean Power Plan, because I can see how 

12 climate change is already hurting people in my 

13 native state of Hawaii.

14 I was born in Honolulu and I grew up 

15 going to the beach. I love the beauty and the 

16 colors of the ocean water, and relaxing to the 

17 sound of breaking waves, as well as the memories 

18 of great times going to the beach as a kid. 

19 There's this song, "White Sandy Beach of Hawaii," 

20 sung by the late Israel Kamakawiwo'ole, that 

21 brings me back to that place.

22 So, of course, there's also a powerful, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
364

1 dangerous side to the ocean. As the older, wiser 

2 folks would always tell us when we were kids, 

3 never turn your back to the ocean, because there 

4 could always be powerful currents and large, 

5 unexpected waves could easily sweep you away. 

6 And, as we'll see, even the land, solid as it may 

7 seem, can be worn down by the relentless power of 

8 the ocean. 

9 So knowing that power, my biggest fear 

10 about climate change has always been sea level 

11 rise. According to the 2014 National Climate 

12 Assessment, sea level has already risen by 8 

13 inches since 1900. But what does this really 

14 mean for real people? First, let's take a walk 

15 down famous Waikiki Beach. Much of Waikiki Beach 

16 is a thin strip of sand in between the ocean on 

17 one side and hotels on the other. 

18 So what happens if you raise sea level, 

19 even by as little as a foot? According to Dolan 

20 Eversole, a Hawaii coastal hazards expert, we 

21 should expect that one foot of sea level rise 

22 will cause the shoreline to move inland by 100 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
365

1 feet. So the ocean moves inland; the hotels 

2 aren't going anywhere, and you get what you see 

3 in Waikiki now, which is, there are places where 

4 there is no beach left. There's just the hotel, 

5 there's a cement walkway on top of the retaining 

6 wall and that's protecting the hotel, and there's 

7 the ocean below. No white sandy beach in Hawaii.

8 According to the 2014 National Climate 

9 Assessment, the loss of Waikiki Beach could lead 

10 to an annual loss of $2 billion in visitor 

11 expenditures. For many of my friends who work in 

12 the hotels, in the restaurants, for the airlines 

13 in Hawaii, this would be catastrophic. If a 

14 hotel goes out of business, hard-working people 

15 that I care about lose their jobs and struggle to 

16 feed their families.

17 But it's not just hotels that are 

18 threatened by sea level. People's homes are 

19 already being damaged, as well. Just this past 

20 Christmas, near Sunset Beach, on the island of 

21 Oahu, on the North Shore, a few days of big waves 

22 caused the fast-moving collapse of the shore that 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
366

1 damaged at least five homes. One homeowner was 

2 forced to cut away rooms just to save the rest of 

3 the house.

4 When people's homes are threatened by 

5 rising sea levels, what choices do you have? 

6 According to Chip Fletcher, a University of 

7 Hawaii coastal geologist, you can build a sea 

8 wall to buy time, to save the houses, but that 

9 may destroy the beaches nearby, or you can save 

10 the beaches by not building a sea wall, which 

11 condemns people's homes to destruction. If we do 

12 nothing to slow down climate change, we have to 

13 make more and more of these excruciatingly 

14 painful decisions.

15 Of course, when many of these homes and 

16 hotels were built, we did not know that there 

17 would someday be sea level rise that would force 

18 us to make these kinds of painful choices. 

19 Likewise, when we started burning coal to make 

20 electricity, we did not know that it would cause 

21 sea levels to rise. But now, we do know.

22 That is why I'm here to support the EPA's 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
367

1 Clean Power Plan, and that's why I support strong 

2 rules to limit carbon emissions from power 

3 plants, and that's also why I appreciate all of 

4 the important actions you're taking at the EPA to 

5 slow down the painful effects of climate change.

6 Thank you.

7 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Our next speaker 

8 is Lois Dahl.

9 MS. DAHL: Hi. My name is Lois Dahl. 

10 I'm a teacher of English as a Second Language, 

11 and I live in Denver, Colorado, and I moved here 

12 from Chicago in 2008, to be near my daughters who

13 live here, and also to enjoy the weather here in 

14 Denver. I now have two grandsons, who are 3 

15 years old and 5 months old, and I'm worried about 

16 the increase in asthma and other illnesses that 

17 are associated with air pollution.

18 My own lungs are especially sensitive, 

19 since I've had pneumonia several times, but I'm 

20 more concerned about my grandsons, who have lived 

21 all of their short lives in the air pollution 

22 from the energy plants, which we know produce 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
368

1 most of the air pollution. They and other little 

2 children deserve the right to breathe clean air, 

3 eat clean food, and drink clean water. We need 

4 clean energy sources to be developed in this 

5 country. 

6 I changed what I was going to say a 

7 little bit, so I have to check things. I have 

8 also experienced the unusual extreme heat here 

9 the last couple of years. Last summer we had 

10 many days of over 100 degrees, which made it 

11 impossible for me to go outside, because I've had 

12 heatstroke a couple of times and I can't go out 

13 in that extreme heat. So last summer was 

14 difficult for those of us who have to stay out of 

15 that extreme heat, and especially little 

16 children. They are more susceptible to 

17 heatstroke.

18 And then, of course, in addition to all 

19 of the pollution from the energy sources now, 

20 when fracking is involved and we introduce 

21 pollution to the water and the air from that, 

22 we're increasing the air pollution and water 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
369

1 pollution even more.

2 I know that we're talking about limiting 

3 the emissions plants, but I also think we need to 

4 think about really changing our whole ideas about 

5 energy. Some people say it's too expensive to 

6 change to clean energy, but other countries have 

7 done it successfully and we're a lot better off 

8 than many of them are.

9 Money is not as important as health. 

10 Other people say people will lose their jobs. 

11 This is true, and it has happened in the past, in 

12 other industries, where workers had to be 

13 retrained for different jobs. This is something 

14 that can be done. Lots of jobs that used to be 

15 common are no longer available now, but that 

16 doesn't mean that we should keep those jobs 

17 around. For example, a lamp-lighter, or a 

18 railroad caboose man. 

19 We have about 360 days a year of sunshine 

20 here in Colorado, although it doesn't look like 

21 it these last couple of days, so we should be 

22 able to do a fantastic solar energy here. And 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
370

1 we've also got some windy places, especially 

2 southern Colorado. I noticed the last time I 

3 drove to Santa Fe that they did put some wind 

4 turbines up there where I was thinking they 

5 should, so that was good. All of these can 

6 employ people in new jobs, with new training.

7 Holding on to dirty energy just doesn't 

8 make sense, with the Earth heating up due to 

9 pollution. While we're switching over to cleaner 

10 energy, we must control the amount of pollution 

11 we are allowing into our air and water, and I 

12 hope that this bill or the amendment goes through 

13 and it passes, and we can have some control over 

14 the pollution now, and then eventually even 

15 reduce it further.

16 Thank you.

17 MS. BROWN: Thank you. That is going to 

18 conclude the afternoon session of the hearing. 

19 We're going to take a break, and sometime shortly 

20 after five the evening session should reconvene 

21 in this room. 

22 We really appreciate all of you 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
371

1 attending.

2 [Whereupon, at 4:56 p.m., the Public 

3 Hearing concluded.]

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376