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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY**

**+ + + + + ASRAC COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL PUMPS**  **WORKING GROUP**

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + THURSDAY**  **JANUARY 30, 2014**

**+ + + + + The Public Meeting met in Room**  **8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 10:00 a.m, Doug Brookman,**  **Meeting Facilitator, presiding. PRESENT**  **DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator LUCAS ADIN, Department of Energy**  **ABIGAIL CHINGOS, Department of Energy DANIEL COHEN, Department of Energy**  **ELIZABETH KOHL, Department of Energy DOUG RAWLAND, Department of Energy** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **ALSO PRESENT ROBERT ASDAL, Hydraulic Institute**  **ROBERT BARBOUR, TACO, Inc. ROBERT BOTELER, Nidec Motor Corporation**  **CHARLES CAPPELLINO, ITT Corporation GREG CASE, Hydraulic Institute**  **TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation Council**  **GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned- Utilities**  **CHARLES FOSTER, Edison Electric Institute MARK HANDZEL, Xylem Corporation**  **ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump Company PAUL LIN, Regal Beloit**  **JOHN MASTERS, Danfoss Group JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness**  **Project LAURA PETRILLO-GROH, Air-Conditioning,**  **Heating, and Refrigeration Institute DOUGLAS POTTS, American Water**  **CHARLES POWERS, Flowserve Corporation Industrial Pumps**  **CALLIE REIS, Navigant Consulting STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute**  **LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance**  **STEVE THOMPSON, TACO, Inc. GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos USA**  **MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council DANIEL WEINTRAUB, Navigant Consulting**  **BENJAMIN WHITE, TACO, Inc. JOHN WHITE JR., TACO, Inc.**  **JOHN WHITE III, TACO, Inc. SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National**  **Laboratory ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory**

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **A-G-E-N-D-A**

**Welcome. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4**

**Opening Remarks, Introductions and Agenda Review. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5** 

**Definition of Covered Product. . . . . . . . .20**

**Scope of the Negotiation . . . . . . . . . . 203**

**Next Steps . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 425**

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  **2 10:25 a.m.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning,**  **4 everyone. Welcome. This is the second public**  **5 meeting of the Commercial Industrial Pumps**  **6 Working Group. Today is Thursday, January 30,**  **7 2014 here in Washington, D.C. at the**  **8 Department of Energy.**  **9 Let me welcome you all. I'm glad**  **10 to see you. My apologies for the late start.**  **11 For those of you that are joining us via the**  **12 Web or just got here we changed rooms and this**  **13 is a better room for us. Much better for our**  **14 creating a transcript and a public record of**  **15 this meeting. And so we're happy to be up**  **16 here but a little bit late in starting.**  **17 Let's start immediately with**  **18 introductions around the room. If each of you**  **19 can get used to turning these microphones on**  **20 and off.**  **21 MR. FERNSTROM: I'm Gary Fernstrom**  **22 representing the California Investor-Owned** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Utilities, PG&E, Southern California Edison,**  **2 San Diego Gas & Electric, and the Southern**  **3 California Gas Company.**  **4 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with the Regal**  **5 Beloit Corporation as an alternate to Howard**  **6 Richardson.**  **7 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural**  **8 Resources Defense Council.**  **9 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer,**  **10 Appliance Standards Awareness Project.**  **11 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers,**  **12 Flowserve Corporation.**  **13 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic**  **14 Institute.**  **15 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem,**  **16 Incorporated.**  **17 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson**  **18 Pump.**  **19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **20 Edison Electric Institute.**  **21 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest**  **22 Power & Conservation Council.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.**  **2 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **3 Grundfos.**  **4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **5 Cappellino, ITT Corporation.**  **6 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American**  **7 Water.**  **8 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO,**  **9 Inc.**  **10 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General**  **11 Counsel's Office.**  **12 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE's**  **13 Appliance and Equipment Standards Program.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,**  **15 LBNL.**  **16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Daniel Weintraub,**  **17 Navigant.**  **18 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific**  **19 Northwest National Lab.**  **20 MS. REIS: Callie Reis, Navigant.**  **21 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec**  **22 Motor Corporation.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. WHITE: John White from TACO.**  **2 MR. WHITE: John White from TACO.**  **3 MR. WHITE: Ben White from TACO.**  **4 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson from**  **5 TACO.**  **6 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Laura**  **7 Petrillo-Groh, AHRI.**  **8 MR. MASTERS: John Masters,**  **9 Danfoss.**  **10 MR. FOSTER: Chuck Foster**  **11 representing Edison Electric Institute.**  **12 MR. RAWLAND: Doug Rawland,**  **13 Department of Energy, Office of General**  **14 Counsel.**  **15 MS. CHINGOS: Abigail Chingos,**  **16 Department of Energy, Office of General**  **17 Counsel.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, very good.**  **19 And thanks to all of you, nice to see you here**  **20 this morning on a cold day in Washington.**  **21 I'm going to do a very brief**  **22 agenda review, and then after the agenda** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 review I'm going to invite anybody, any member**  **2 of the committee that wishes to make brief**  **3 opening comments here at the outset.**  **4 Immediately following this agenda**  **5 review, as I said, an opportunity for comment.**  **6 From there all of you received a copy of the**  **7 PowerPoint slides, the colorful presentation,**  **8 yes? Some very good information here prepared**  **9 by the Department and the consultant team that**  **10 I expect we'll be going in and out of as the**  **11 day proceeds. I don't think that there's any**  **12 linear approach to what we have in mind here.**  **13 However, you can see in the agenda**  **14 what we intend to cover today is definition of**  **15 covered product. Perhaps in this sequence,**  **16 maybe not. The definition of covered product.**  **17 Scope of negotiation.**  **18 We'll break for lunch midday**  **19 around about 12:30 or so and then probably**  **20 return to scope of negotiation. That's one of**  **21 the real things to hope to conclude during the**  **22 span of this two-day meeting.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 We'll probably take a break**  **2 mid-afternoon around about 3:30 or so and then**  **3 talk about the metric for pump efficiency.**  **4 Whatever we haven't finished today**  **5 we'll take over to tomorrow. And let me note**  **6 as it reflects in the agenda tomorrow we'll**  **7 start at 8 a.m. in this room right here. And**  **8 we'll once again have an opportunity for**  **9 opening remarks and then we'll talk about the**  **10 test procedure or testing overview.**  **11 We'll take a break mid-morning.**  **12 We'll continue with test procedures. We'll go**  **13 from there to talking about data requests,**  **14 data needs as you envision it.**  **15 We'll break for lunch again**  **16 12:30-ish and then talk about setting the**  **17 agenda for the next meeting which is now**  **18 scheduled, by the way. And then concluding**  **19 remarks between 2:45 and 3 o'clock tomorrow.**  **20 We'll conclude tomorrow at 3 o'clock.**  **21 And one thing that was discussed**  **22 at the last meeting was maybe shifting the** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 meeting times slightly, maybe starting this**  **2 meeting a little earlier, maybe starting the**  **3 day 2 meeting a little bit later. We'll take**  **4 that up at some convenient time during the**  **5 course of the day today.**  **6 So that is the agenda for today.**  **7 Questions and comments on the agenda? No**  **8 questions or comments on the agenda.**  **9 Let me just ask you if you would**  **10 please, please say your name each time you**  **11 speak. We had some difficulty with the**  **12 transcript in getting the attributions**  **13 correct.**  **14 And I'd like a little bit of free**  **15 flow and form myself. However, we're going to**  **16 need to exhibit a little more discipline in**  **17 the meeting today because we want to make sure**  **18 we produce a really accurate record. So I'm**  **19 going to be a little bit more heavy-handed**  **20 until we get the hang of this. Okay? And**  **21 then we'll lighten up a little bit.**  **22 But if you would keep the focus** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 here. Turn your cell phones on silent mode.**  **2 For those of you that are joining**  **3 us via the Web, do we have the Web at this**  **4 point? Not yet. When the Web joins us I'll**  **5 introduce how they are supposed to participate**  **6 if at all.**  **7 Anybody that wishes to make**  **8 opening remarks? Steve Rosenstock.**  **9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.**  **10 Yes, I just wanted to say I just want to**  **11 appreciate the information that was sent out**  **12 a couple of days in advance. That's always**  **13 appreciated to give time for people to review**  **14 the information.**  **15 I just had a quick question. As I**  **16 look through the slides some of the slides**  **17 seem to be making recommendations for this**  **18 committee and I was wondering who's making the**  **19 recommendations on the slides?**  **20 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. I**  **21 think it's probably better to say that they're**  **22 not meant to be characterized specifically as** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 recommendations, but more as general proposals**  **2 for the purposes of stimulating discussion.**  **3 Nothing in there represents any**  **4 kind of predetermination on the part of DOE or**  **5 a specific recommended course of action.**  **6 We're really just trying to set the stage for**  **7 discussion and debate on these items.**  **8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.**  **9 Yes, I really appreciate that. But again,**  **10 skipping ahead to slide 5 it specifically says**  **11 yes/maybe/no in terms of scope for the**  **12 negotiations.**  **13 So, again, it's one thing to say**  **14 pump type and that's already -- again, the**  **15 slides already say yes/maybe/no. So, that**  **16 does seem to be a recommendation in my view.**  **17 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. Just**  **18 to provide a little clarification there. I**  **19 fully appreciate the impression that that**  **20 slide gives.**  **21 And again, all the information**  **22 that's provided here is subject to change by** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 this working group. So really what we're**  **2 trying to do is just give a place to start.**  **3 All those items can be moved up or down in**  **4 that list, rearranged.**  **5 We just really wanted to provide a**  **6 sense as to where things seem to be based on**  **7 the last meeting, coming out of the framework**  **8 document, just to give a place to start.**  **9 We'd like to be able to provide a**  **10 visual way of characterizing all these things**  **11 and we had to start someplace, so.**  **12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you**  **13 very much.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: And Steve, I would**  **15 further interpret that. I think some of those**  **16 are like placeholders to indicate that this is**  **17 the sort of thing we would take a vote on.**  **18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.**  **19 Thank you, I appreciate that. So obviously,**  **20 you know, we would -- this group can change**  **21 any of these, what's shown on the slides.**  **22 Okay, thank you.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: I would welcome any**  **2 introductory remarks from any member of the**  **3 committee working group. No comments here?**  **4 Lucas.**  **5 MR. ADIN: Just a couple of**  **6 additional general points. This is Lucas**  **7 Adin, DOE.**  **8 Steve already touched on one item**  **9 I did intend to address up front which is just**  **10 generally that the information in the slides**  **11 is for the purposes of stimulating discussion.**  **12 It's informational. Any of it can be changed.**  **13 We intend to make notes based on the input**  **14 that we receive here today.**  **15 To the extent we make decisions**  **16 that are different from what we've put up**  **17 there of course that will all be recorded. So**  **18 none of this is meant to indicate that DOE has**  **19 already made a decision on any of this, or**  **20 that we're recommending a specific course of**  **21 action.**  **22 To the extent DOE does have** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 something in mind of course I'll make that**  **2 known to the group as we talk about it today.**  **3 But, we haven't predetermined any of these**  **4 things.**  **5 The data is based upon what we've**  **6 been able to collect so far. It's our best**  **7 attempt to aggregate it, to put it in a form**  **8 that's useful for this group.**  **9 Obviously to the extent anyone in**  **10 the group thinks that any of it is inaccurate,**  **11 or there's something that should be added to**  **12 make it have more relevance to our discussion,**  **13 or anything of that nature, of course we**  **14 welcome that kind of input today and we'll add**  **15 it to the information that we have in there**  **16 for the record. So I think those are just the**  **17 general items I wanted to make known up front.**  **18 And I'm sorry, one other item is**  **19 that the order that we put these things in is**  **20 not necessarily reflective of how we'll**  **21 discuss them. We put a few things in there**  **22 talking about proposals for voting, items we** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 want on.**  **2 We just want to make sure those**  **3 were known up front so that everyone knows**  **4 really what it is that we're talking about and**  **5 what we're trying to work towards.**  **6 We're not expressing an intent to**  **7 try and vote on these things right off the**  **8 bat. We want to talk about the substantive**  **9 information first and then inform a decision.**  **10 So hopefully that's clear.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here?**  **12 Yes, Chuck.**  **13 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers,**  **14 Flowserve. I think what you put together,**  **15 Lucas, was good.**  **16 I think what's most important is**  **17 as much fact base and not speculation as we go**  **18 through this. Because we are taking a serious**  **19 step in people's lives, companies and costs**  **20 and such. So I think what you're doing is**  **21 excellent right now.**  **22 The substance itself, the only** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 question I would have, and some of the**  **2 corporations involved here and even some of**  **3 the other groups, having it a day and a half**  **4 before the meeting is good actually. Right?**  **5 It gives us a chance. I think everybody's**  **6 probably looked at it.**  **7 And the problem is though to reach**  **8 out to resident experts in different areas**  **9 which is a lot of areas that you touched,**  **10 which is good. You've got to reach out to**  **11 those people.**  **12 And if you know today**  **13 communications is instantaneous, but still**  **14 people have to go pull data, pull information**  **15 and validate and say, give their opinion back**  **16 to the people at this table I think to view**  **17 it.**  **18 So, I would just recommend as we**  **19 go forward if we could get more time with some**  **20 of these. We may have to table some of these**  **21 not because I don't think this group wants to**  **22 slow it down, but we may want to go get more** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 data and validate some information, or do**  **2 another additional survey because some of the**  **3 stuff touched here wasn't even on the surveys**  **4 and it's good, right, and we've got to look at**  **5 it.**  **6 Because we are affecting a**  **7 considerable amount of cost in people's lives**  **8 and jobs if we make the wrong decision because**  **9 of speculation.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **11 MR. ADIN: Just a couple of quick**  **12 points in response. Lucas Adin, DOE.**  **13 Your point is well taken. And**  **14 truth be told if we could have given you a**  **15 week to look at it we would have. We were**  **16 literally still getting data two days ago, so.**  **17 Hopefully we won't be in that**  **18 situation for the next meeting or the**  **19 subsequent meetings. We'll already have most**  **20 of what we need that we can do analysis and**  **21 provide it farther in advance.**  **22 But obviously we want to make sure** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 we have everything included. We want to make**  **2 sure we provide something that's not**  **3 misleading or mischaracterizing what we're**  **4 going to be talking about. But we will make**  **5 every effort to do that. Thanks.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments here**  **7 at the outset? Okay, thank you.**  **8 The Department provide -- do we**  **9 get the transcripts? Not yet, mounted, no.**  **10 On the SharePoint site, I hope**  **11 that all of you found a way to get access to**  **12 the SharePoint site. Several bits of data, my**  **13 meeting summary was posted there. More stuff**  **14 will be added as we're going along. The**  **15 transcripts we expect will be any day now?**  **16 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.**  **17 That's my hope. It's taking longer than I**  **18 anticipated to finalize the documents, but I'm**  **19 hoping it will be soon. I need to check in**  **20 with the court reporters and find out the**  **21 status.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Around about 700** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 pages' worth. It's a lot of content to scrub**  **2 through, sort and sift. Okay.**  **3 So then with no additional**  **4 comments then let's go into the first item on**  **5 the agenda which is definition of a covered**  **6 product.**  **7 And so this definition here on the**  **8 slide, slide 3. Do we have the Web with us**  **9 yet? We do have the Web. So those of you**  **10 that are joining us via the Web, we welcome**  **11 you. How many have joined us? Five right**  **12 now. We welcome you.**  **13 The Department of Energy is trying**  **14 hard to make sure these meetings are very**  **15 accessible to anyone via the Web.**  **16 You may participate in this**  **17 conversation if you wish but while you are not**  **18 please have your telephone on mute. And you**  **19 can raise your hand in the software that we're**  **20 using and we ought to be able to hear you here**  **21 in the room.**  **22 However, we're trying to make sure** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that the bulk of the content, the discussion,**  **2 conversation here is among members. But we**  **3 welcome additions to that conversation.**  **4 Okay, now let's hear about**  **5 possible definition of covered product.**  **6 Alison Williams.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, we're just**  **8 suggesting here -- as you know the covered**  **9 product is a pump, but there's no definition**  **10 for it.**  **11 So what we first want to do is**  **12 just discuss what the definition of the**  **13 covered product should be. And so this is**  **14 just an example we threw up here to start**  **15 discussion.**  **16 But basically the idea is that a**  **17 pump would include the covered product. The**  **18 pump would include a bare pump, any mechanical**  **19 equipment attached to it, the driver and**  **20 controls.**  **21 MR. POWERS: Yes, Chuck Powers,**  **22 Flowserve. The question would be are we going** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to define the definition to the decisions**  **2 we're making, or to the broad industry itself?**  **3 Because if it is for this committee I would**  **4 think you'd want to change the word "fluid" to**  **5 "water."**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't hear that.**  **7 "Flow" into what?**  **8 MR. POWERS: Change the word**  **9 "fluid" to "water."**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **11 MR. POWERS: Because we have -- I**  **12 believe, and I could be wrong, we're**  **13 addressing water, not other things.**  **14 I mean, I understand from a**  **15 general nature we're trying to put a**  **16 definition of pumps and there's 4,000 books**  **17 written on it, but we ought to clarify more**  **18 precisely.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: This is what we're**  **20 supposed to do. Al Huber.**  **21 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **22 We believe it should be not only water, just** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 clean water.**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Alison**  **3 Williams, LBNL. Let me just clarify that the**  **4 covered product should be not just what we're**  **5 going to set standards on as part of this**  **6 committee, but just a general definition for**  **7 pump.**  **8 So it might include fluids, and in**  **9 this rulemaking the standards could cover**  **10 clean water pumps. But in potentially some**  **11 future rulemaking down the road as the EU is**  **12 doing it could cover more products.**  **13 So this definition doesn't**  **14 necessarily have to be specific to what you're**  **15 going to negotiate in this rulemaking.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Alison -- Gary**  **17 Fernstrom, California Investor-Owned**  **18 Utilities. I have a problem with that because**  **19 when DOE or the legislature defines a covered**  **20 product it generally preempts states from**  **21 implementing energy efficiency regulations for**  **22 any of those covered products.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Where DOE covers a product and**  **2 fails to set a regulation then we have**  **3 preemption and a no-regulation regulation.**  **4 And that precludes the states from setting**  **5 their own regulations for these products DOE**  **6 has chosen not to do anything with.**  **7 So, I believe that our definition**  **8 should not be broad, opening the opportunity**  **9 for all products to be covered and thus**  **10 preempted, resulting in preempting the states**  **11 from regulating products that DOE may choose**  **12 to regulate.**  **13 MS. KOHL: So, just in response to**  **14 that. This is Betsy Kohl from the DOE General**  **15 Counsel's Office.**  **16 So, the way preemption works is**  **17 it's the product. And the pump is the listed**  **18 product under EPCA.**  **19 So, if, you know, the result of**  **20 this group's negotiation is that DOE sets a**  **21 standard for certain types of pumps states**  **22 can't come in and fill in the interstices** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 where we've decided that no standard is**  **2 appropriate.**  **3 And I know, I think we talked in**  **4 the last meeting about pool pumps which we've**  **5 determined we don't think we have an issue**  **6 because your standards are set in terms of the**  **7 motor.**  **8 But that's the way the preemption**  **9 works.**  **10 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom.**  **11 The California standards apply to both pool**  **12 pumps, being the integral pump and motor**  **13 product, and motors. So, there is an issue**  **14 there.**  **15 MS. KOHL: So, Betsy Kohl, General**  **16 Counsel's Office. We've talked some with your**  **17 attorneys out there. And the way the regs are**  **18 set up, the headings, and this is probably**  **19 more detail than others in the group need to**  **20 know, but are set up for the pump system.**  **21 But when you actually look at what**  **22 the reg is doing it's requiring things of the** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 motor. So we didn't perceive an issue. But**  **2 if there's more discussion that's needed on**  **3 this we can certainly talk about that.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: This is an issue**  **5 that came up last time and the Department of**  **6 Energy said you would check on it. So you've**  **7 checked on it and so this is very appropriate.**  **8 Do you wish to say more about it**  **9 at this time? Or you're comfortable, Betsy?**  **10 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom.**  **11 Thank you so much, Betsy, for the**  **12 clarification. That really helps.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.**  **14 MR. STARR: So, Louis Starr with**  **15 NEEA. I think that how you define a pump**  **16 could be -- and actually we spent a lot of**  **17 time in private negotiations with HI on this**  **18 very thing.**  **19 My only problem is that if the**  **20 intent really is to regulate this group of**  **21 things I think advocates and pump**  **22 manufacturers, not speaking for them, but are** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 for it.**  **2 What we found is that really what**  **3 this doesn't do is it doesn't regulate**  **4 distributors. And so if the intent is not**  **5 really to include distributors in there I can**  **6 be pretty sure the pump guys are probably not**  **7 interested in that.**  **8 So, really if the only purpose is**  **9 to regulate preemption I'm kind of wondering**  **10 is this sole purpose a preemption issue, or is**  **11 this really to regulate the market and there's**  **12 no intent to actually cover it in extended**  **13 product.**  **14 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. So, I**  **15 think I might need a little bit more**  **16 clarification on the distributor part of it.**  **17 Just to make sure it's clear, that the intent**  **18 I think with a broader definition like this is**  **19 to ensure that something like the extended**  **20 product all the way out to a drive would be**  **21 addressed generally under the definition.**  **22 MR. STARR: Well, just a real** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 concrete example would be let's say I'm a pump**  **2 manufacturer and I make a pump motor on a VFD**  **3 and I sell it into the market. And**  **4 regulations pass and now I now have to have a**  **5 certain efficiency associated with this group**  **6 or this product that I sell.**  **7 Meanwhile, the distributor buys**  **8 this product either from the pump manufacturer**  **9 or from a contractor. And Joe Contractor down**  **10 the street decides, hmm, I can put this**  **11 together at my distributor company. I'll buy**  **12 a VFD, I'll buy a pump and I'll put it all**  **13 together and I don't have to meet the DOE**  **14 regulations on this where the manufacturers**  **15 do.**  **16 The manufacturers have to spend**  **17 money on testing and all the other stuff**  **18 associated with regulation. Meanwhile, the**  **19 distributor does not have to spend any money.**  **20 He undercuts the pump supplier.**  **21 Now people are buying stuff from**  **22 the distributor. The pump company is now** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 losing money on it and a whole bunch of other**  **2 things. So that's what I'm referring to. It**  **3 creates a loophole.**  **4 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE. That**  **5 may or may not be an artifact of whatever**  **6 standard comes out of this group. But the**  **7 reality of all of our standards is that we**  **8 regulate the manufacturer. And after-market**  **9 manipulation is not something that we have**  **10 authority to regulate.**  **11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **12 EEI. In terms of the discussion I'd like to**  **13 skip ahead. Slide 19 I thought was very, very**  **14 interesting to me. I don't know if you want**  **15 to skip ahead to it. Because it does have a**  **16 kind of a big impact on this discussion.**  **17 Again, this is based on the**  **18 survey, Lucas, that you've done, the data that**  **19 you've done. And I think it's really, you**  **20 know, especially in terms of controls --**  **21 again, just looking at this data, the data set**  **22 that we have, it looks like, and pretty much** 

### Page 30

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 in a lot of the categories it's that less than**  **2 10 percent of the packages have a VFD, have**  **3 some sort of control. Again, based on this**  **4 one.**  **5 A lot of them have the motor, that**  **6 shows, a lot of them have the driver, but very**  **7 few, less than 10 percent are shipped with the**  **8 control.**  **9 So, in terms of, again, in terms**  **10 of the scope as a manufacturing standard I'm**  **11 wondering if maybe as a first-time standard,**  **12 maybe leave controls out because since the**  **13 manufacturers aren't really shipping with the**  **14 controls.**  **15 And again, I also wanted to say**  **16 I'm not aware -- with other appliance**  **17 standards, I'll just say motors, for example,**  **18 you know, all the standards on motors. It's**  **19 about efficiency at full load or nominal full**  **20 load.**  **21 There's nothing about the**  **22 controls. Control is a lot of times required** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 in the building codes, but DOE does not set**  **2 any standards for controls with other --**  **3 almost all the other covered products that I'm**  **4 familiar with.**  **5 So again, just in terms of this**  **6 discussion based on this data adding the**  **7 controls might cause, and especially after**  **8 what Louis said, might cause more issues than**  **9 DOE wants to -- than this group wants to**  **10 address. Thank you.**  **11 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I just clarify**  **12 that, again, the definition of the covered**  **13 product does not necessarily refer to what**  **14 you're going to set standards on.**  **15 So, the metric may or may not**  **16 include the motor and controls. Even if the**  **17 covered product was defined to include a pump**  **18 motor and controls you can still determine**  **19 whether or not the metric includes those**  **20 components at this point.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Alison,**  **22 by the way. Al Huber and then to Charlie.** 

### Page 32

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HUBER: Okay, first of all,**  **2 this is Al Huber, Patterson. To address**  **3 Steve's concern about the percentage of VFDs.**  **4 VFDs are -- they're relatively new in the**  **5 marketplace I guess would be a good way to put**  **6 it. And it's growing.**  **7 And pump manufacturers now are**  **8 offering, and just in the last 3 years are**  **9 starting to offer them as packages with their**  **10 pumps. So this is a growing market for this**  **11 product as a combination. So that's why you**  **12 see the lower numbers right now, but they are**  **13 growing.**  **14 And we expect, I expect to see it**  **15 at the 65 where the motors are before it's**  **16 over, or maybe more. So that addresses that.**  **17 Now, the other concern is with the**  **18 distribution. Once the distributor starts**  **19 assembling he now becomes a manufacturer. If**  **20 he takes products, different products, and he**  **21 starts packaging them together and so that I**  **22 think that if we look at this there has to be** 

### Page 33

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 some kind of certification. If he wants to**  **2 get into testing and certification then he can**  **3 offer it.**  **4 MS. KOHL: I'm not sure that's how**  **5 we would view it -- Betsy Kohl from DOE GC.**  **6 I'm not sure that's how the Department would**  **7 view that. But we can certainly talk with our**  **8 enforcement folks about that.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, that's an**  **10 interesting point. Charlie first. I'm going**  **11 to observe the queue for a little bit here.**  **12 Charlie Cappellino.**  **13 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **14 Cappellino, ITT. Two points, or one's a**  **15 question.**  **16 Why are we going through the**  **17 process of defining pump? Just to clarify it.**  **18 MR. ADIN: In general there is a**  **19 definition -- for every product that DOE**  **20 regulates there is a definition for that term.**  **21 And it is, at least in DOE's view, essential**  **22 for identifying the universe of products that** 

### Page 34

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 potentially fall under that term in the law.**  **2 So, if you look in the statute**  **3 there's a word "pump" and it says this is a**  **4 covered product. But the statute doesn't**  **5 define what it is. It's up to DOE to decide**  **6 what that term means.**  **7 And so generally what we try and**  **8 do is define it broadly so that even if we're**  **9 not going to set a standard for various**  **10 classes or types of pumps it's -- that word**  **11 has meaning that's applicable to a broad array**  **12 of things that potentially could get a**  **13 standard, or does that make sense?**  **14 DOE has statutory authority to set**  **15 standards for all these things. We're not**  **16 necessarily going to do it here, but that term**  **17 still has to have a meaning. And we want to**  **18 make sure that that's understood.**  **19 Like, for example, DOE has**  **20 standards for electric motors and adopted a**  **21 definition for the term "electric motor" which**  **22 was extremely broad. It basically just says** 

### Page 35

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 a motor is a machine that turns electrical**  **2 energy into rotating mechanical energy. It's**  **3 as broad as it can possibly be.**  **4 But we only set standards for more**  **5 specific types and we define what those are in**  **6 the regulation. And we're anticipating that**  **7 we will follow some sort of similar pathway**  **8 here.**  **9 This is just meant to define up**  **10 front the word "pump," this is what it means**  **11 and we want to make sure potentially that it**  **12 could mean this entire extended, whatever term**  **13 you're using to define it, extended product,**  **14 pump system. If that makes sense.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, I didn't**  **16 think you were finished.**  **17 MR. CAPPELLINO: So, my question,**  **18 follow-on question is does the word have to be**  **19 "pump" or could it be "pump package" or "pump**  **20 system?"**  **21 MS. KOHL: So, the defined**  **22 product, or the stated product in the statute** 

### Page 36

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 is "pump." So that's the term that this group**  **2 would have authority to define, yes.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Several people wish**  **4 to be in the queue so about in this order is**  **5 how I saw you. I saw Gary and then Tom and**  **6 then Mark then back to Chuck. Let's try and**  **7 keep these as brief as possible. Gary?**  **8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so this is**  **9 Gary, California Investor-Owned Utilities.**  **10 Betsy and Lucas, I understand what**  **11 you're saying about the broad definition.**  **12 Thank you for clarifying that.**  **13 I have a question about states'**  **14 rights though. If you define these products**  **15 as broadly as you can as being covered it**  **16 prohibits states from identifying a**  **17 subcategory where they would like to take**  **18 action.**  **19 And I don't see what the utility**  **20 and the benefit to national energy efficiency**  **21 is if you summarily cut off states from the**  **22 opportunity to address these products that may** 

### Page 37

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 have cost-effective energy saving**  **2 opportunities for states.**  **3 MS. KOHL: So, this is Betsy Kohl**  **4 from DOE GC. And I'm not sure, I believe we**  **5 provided this information to you last time**  **6 about the preemption provisions in EPCA.**  **7 And the way the statute is written**  **8 is that states are already preempted. EPCA**  **9 has defined the pump as a covered product and**  **10 until we come in and set standards you are --**  **11 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, okay --**  **12 MS. KOHL: And when we do, "pump"**  **13 the field is preempted.**  **14 MR. FERNSTROM: Here's what I**  **15 don't understand. You said EPCA covers these**  **16 products and that forms the basis of**  **17 preemption.**  **18 You said the definition isn't**  **19 really very well defined in EPCA. And DOE**  **20 comes along and more specifically defines what**  **21 a covered product is.**  **22 So, if you define "pump" as** 

### Page 38

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 broadly as you can, yes, then all pumps are**  **2 covered. But it's DOE that is coming up with**  **3 this subsequent definition that supports EPCA,**  **4 right?**  **5 MS. KOHL: Yes, I see the point**  **6 that you're trying to make. But I -- I**  **7 wouldn't see the concept being that we would**  **8 define "pump" and the states could come in and**  **9 -- I just, I see the point that you're trying**  **10 to make and we'd have to think about that a**  **11 little bit more.**  **12 But I don't think -- I mean the**  **13 way the statute works is that there is a**  **14 product. And if we decide for a certain**  **15 subset of that product to not -- I think I see**  **16 what you're saying now, yes.**  **17 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom.**  **18 Thank you for recognizing our point of view.**  **19 MS. KOHL: Yes.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: And thank you to**  **21 Betsy also for that. Tom Eckman. I'd like to**  **22 see if we can return to this definition of** 

### Page 39

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 "pump" on page 3.**  **2 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I want to follow**  **3 up on both Al's comment -- Tom Eckman,**  **4 Northwest Power and Conservation Council.**  **5 If we have a growing market share**  **6 of products that are extended, let's say,**  **7 because they have controls and VFDs associated**  **8 with them, and we have a DOE position that an**  **9 assembler of that product at the distributor**  **10 level isn't a manufacturer then I think**  **11 there's a bit of a conundrum here in terms of**  **12 moving forward on a definition that includes**  **13 anything but the pump itself.**  **14 Because we don't have the ability**  **15 apparently to regulate people who assemble the**  **16 same thing that a manufacturer does but are**  **17 not manufacturers by the current definition.**  **18 I think that's a problem for everybody in this**  **19 room that wants to get the closure. So we've**  **20 got to take that on straightaway, otherwise**  **21 we're not going to make much progress.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, are you** 

### Page 40

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 following at this point or shall I let some**  **2 follow-on comments?**  **3 MR. HANDZEL: You can go ahead.**  **4 What I was going to say has been said.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **6 Then Paul and then Gary. And I'm coming back**  **7 to you, Chuck.**  **8 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal**  **9 Beloit. Just maybe some comments as relative**  **10 to the regional standards around the AC heat**  **11 pump and furnaces.**  **12 The DOE had defined the contractor**  **13 as a manufacturer. So there is ways of -- I**  **14 know that DOE has addressed different**  **15 distributorships and even down to the**  **16 contractor level.**  **17 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,**  **18 California Investor-Owned Utilities.**  **19 Following up on Paul's point.**  **20 In a previous meeting of this**  **21 nature DOE presented the legal opinion that**  **22 where a distributor or supplier was assembling** 

### Page 41

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 a product and selling it as a pump motor or**  **2 pump motor control combination they would in**  **3 effect be deemed a manufacturer and that**  **4 product would be regulated.**  **5 If it's assembled in the field,**  **6 motor from one supplier, pump from another**  **7 supplier by a contractor, then that may not,**  **8 in fact, be a product that's manufactured for**  **9 sale. So, I'd just like to follow up on**  **10 Paul's point.**  **11 The HI has expressed an interest**  **12 in somehow including or valuing the energy**  **13 savings potential associated with these**  **14 extended products. We similarly see an**  **15 opportunity there and would like to be able to**  **16 recognize that energy savings.**  **17 So, if there's some way for us to**  **18 open the door even a little to valuing**  **19 extended products that would be a good thing.**  **20 And I think we collectively would like to do**  **21 that.**  **22 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. So, I** 

### Page 42

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 understand completely the concern that's been**  **2 raised regarding the distributor aspect and**  **3 why that's kind of a sticking point at this**  **4 point in the discussion.**  **5 And I guess to move forward in**  **6 trying to respond to that maybe it's best for**  **7 me to ask a question which is how are products**  **8 that are intended to be assembled from these**  **9 different parts. So the pump, the motor, and**  **10 in some cases a variable speed drive or some**  **11 kind of controls, how does the pump**  **12 manufacturer express the types of components**  **13 with which it's intended to be paired, with**  **14 which it can be paired?**  **15 How does the distributor know**  **16 what's appropriate? I mean, how does that**  **17 information flow?**  **18 Part of this is obviously the**  **19 physical assembly of the final covered**  **20 product, but another part of it is the**  **21 marketing, the expressing of engineering**  **22 information, ratings, those kinds of things.** 

### Page 43

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **2 Xylem. So, each of us manufacturers, again,**  **3 we make the pump. And it's suitable to be**  **4 paired with our type of motor and the type of**  **5 motor is designated by NEMA, frame sizes and**  **6 things like that.**  **7 So, we supply it with the motor if**  **8 somebody asks us to. Other times we supply it**  **9 without the motor and either a distributor, or**  **10 as Gary mentioned, a contractor could mount a**  **11 motor on it.**  **12 Same thing applies to the drive.**  **13 It's an option that we all sell. We can put**  **14 the drive with it or you can supply your own**  **15 drive.**  **16 So our performance curves, they**  **17 tell you what horsepower you have to pair with**  **18 the pump to ensure that it's adequately being**  **19 powered properly. Okay?**  **20 So all the information is out**  **21 there. We make it available that somebody**  **22 could pick and choose if they wanted to do it** 

### Page 44

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that way.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **3 MR. POWERS: Yes, I think but the**  **4 basic process starts with the specification.**  **5 Somebody is going to write a spec. Somebody**  **6 is going to spend a lot of time trying to help**  **7 that spec because a lot of people don't know**  **8 and they get consultants to groups that help**  **9 them with these things.**  **10 And when that spec starts**  **11 generally speaking it's the heart which is the**  **12 pump first. They want to define what the pump**  **13 is, the core part of the unit.**  **14 After that it's just a train.**  **15 Somebody will say we want a motor. Sometimes**  **16 they'll go into detail on the motor.**  **17 Sometimes they don't.**  **18 Then they'll say we want a VFD.**  **19 And generally speaking -- or controls, very**  **20 few people, and in fact I don't know of any**  **21 actually, make all those items as a combined**  **22 unit in different facilities.** 

### Page 45

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 But the packaging, now, somebody**  **2 reads a spec and the spec might say it has to**  **3 be one of the following pump guys, right, or**  **4 equal they'll say, different variations,**  **5 right?**  **6 So they're smart and they'll say,**  **7 okay, I am a representative of this guy.**  **8 There's three of them on there. Now I'm going**  **9 to go buy my motor like we would do, and I'm**  **10 going to go do this and this and depending**  **11 upon that regulation.**  **12 So, if this policy defines for all**  **13 those it's good. But how broad can you go?**  **14 Because then do you go to the valve? Do you**  **15 go to the system? There's a lot of other**  **16 variations that can destroy efficiency. All**  **17 the gain you have here may go down the tubes**  **18 based on the type of system they have.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.**  **20 I think this discussion has been interesting**  **21 and I'm hoping we can shift gears towards**  **22 thinking about describing a possible solution** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 now. Charlie Cappellino.**  **2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **3 Cappellino, ITT.**  **4 So, to build on the discussion.**  **5 The market is really -- there's two aspects of**  **6 it.**  **7 In one case when the customer has**  **8 the ability to choose independently the pump,**  **9 the driver and the drive, the frequency drive,**  **10 those decisions can be made immediately as**  **11 Chuck described. So a customer could judge**  **12 the efficiency of the pump, judge the**  **13 efficiency of the motor, or judge even the**  **14 efficiency of the drive all independently and**  **15 make a selection. So, that's one scenario.**  **16 The other scenario is where it's**  **17 an integral design where the customer really**  **18 has no choice over the drive, the controls and**  **19 the bare pump.**  **20 So, one possible outcome here is**  **21 when the customer has the choice or the**  **22 ability to independently judge the efficiency** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 of each component, then regulate each**  **2 component individually like you do today with**  **3 an electric motor. That's regulated**  **4 independently.**  **5 A drive could be regulated**  **6 independently and the bare pump could be**  **7 regulated independently. Because the customer**  **8 has choice and they can make a decision from**  **9 an efficiency standpoint on each of those**  **10 pieces.**  **11 But in the other case where the**  **12 customer has no choice there's no chance to**  **13 make a choice. So in that case you should**  **14 regulate the combined solution.**  **15 I mean, I think that's the**  **16 practicality of the way the market works today**  **17 and would be easiest to implement if we move**  **18 forward.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from one**  **20 other industry person. Al Huber.**  **21 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **22 Many of us as manufacturers are involved in a** 

### Page 48

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 wide range of product in a wide range of 2 sizes. Depending on what we come out with**  **3 here we originally said we were going to go 4 above 2,500 gpm and 400 and some odd feet of**  **5 head and -- 25 gpm. And we were going to go 6 up to 200 horsepower.**  **7 Well, the majority of the things 8 that we sell under 200 horsepower or less are**  **9 probably not very rigid specifications like 10 Chuck was talking about. I mean we see both,**  **11 he sees both. So they're not, you know, you 12 don't have a specification written by a**  **13 consultant. 14 So, I think what you're trying to**  **15 regulate here is small enough that the 16 majority of it is going to fall within where**  **17 the customer doesn't know, and doesn't have a 18 choice, and doesn't have a consultant to help**  **19 him in most cases. Below 200 horsepower. 20 Above that you see a lot of**  **21 consultants and you see a lot of people 22 defining what you're going to give. So I** 

### Page 49

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 think, you know, we need to bear that in mind.**  **2 All this falls together and that's**  **3 why you're going to have to make some**  **4 decisions as Doug says and you're going to**  **5 have to wrap it all in one package. And it's**  **6 all going to have to fit.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg.**  **8 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, NRDC.**  **9 I just have a follow-up question.**  **10 In the commercial building space**  **11 how does it work? Do you not have an engineer**  **12 spec-ing the pumps and would those not be less**  **13 than 200 horsepower?**  **14 MR. HANDZEL: Sorry, thank you.**  **15 Mark Handzel from Xylem. In a commercial**  **16 building typically, new construction, there's**  **17 going to be a consulting engineer who's going**  **18 to write that specification that Chuck**  **19 referred to, list accepted manufacturers.**  **20 He may list what motor**  **21 manufacturers he accepts. He may list what**  **22 drive manufacturers he accepts. So, we will** 

### Page 50

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 -- all of us are somewhat at the mercy of our**  **2 distributors in terms of how does that get bid**  **3 to the mechanical contractors, whether they**  **4 buy all those components from us.**  **5 The distributor may represent a**  **6 different drive line so he may include his**  **7 drives. So that's why we are somewhat in**  **8 control, but not completely in control.**  **9 And certainly the replacement**  **10 market like in a commercial building, you**  **11 know, there's typically no consulting engineer**  **12 when a pump is being replaced.**  **13 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,**  **14 California IOU.**  **15 I agree with Charles' perspective.**  **16 I think we all tend to look at the market from**  **17 our own point of view. And certainly the**  **18 majority of the market for larger equipment is**  **19 specification-driven just the way it was**  **20 represented.**  **21 But there is becoming an**  **22 increasing number of smaller pumps and motors** 

### Page 51

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that are sold as a package off the shelf,**  **2 either the pump and motor combination, or the**  **3 pump, motor and drive combination.**  **4 And I was in Grundfos' plant in**  **5 Fresno where I saw these products being**  **6 produced, not to some specific customer's**  **7 order, but for the catalog.**  **8 So, when we think about it yes,**  **9 the majority of the market is middle to bigger**  **10 stuff. It's specification-driven. But there**  **11 is this equipment that is sold off the shelf**  **12 which may include a motor and may include a**  **13 control which is a manufactured product. And**  **14 we would like to recognize the energy-saving**  **15 potential that these products have.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: It would seem as**  **17 though we've now sort of characterized all of**  **18 this. Now, the question is what do we do**  **19 about it. Lucas Adin.**  **20 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. So,**  **21 just to perhaps step back a little bit and**  **22 kind of re-frame what we're discussing here** 

### Page 52

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 regarding the actual definition of the term**  **2 "pump."**  **3 All the concerns that have been**  **4 expressed here are completely understandable**  **5 and they're all things that at some point we**  **6 have to address.**  **7 From DOE's perspective they fall**  **8 into different parts of the regulation that we**  **9 will deal with separately, but are obviously**  **10 all interrelated. So you have this definition**  **11 of the physical product that you're actually**  **12 covering. And this is the most broad group of**  **13 things not all of which obviously we're going**  **14 to set a standard for. So the physical**  **15 product.**  **16 Then you have the metric that**  **17 defines what the efficiency of that product is**  **18 going to be for the purposes of setting a**  **19 standard and rating it. So that kind of**  **20 determines which parts of that thing that**  **21 we've already defined we're actually**  **22 measuring.** 

### Page 53

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 And then you have the enforcement**  **2 and compliance components which determine**  **3 who's responsible for reporting what, and**  **4 who's going to do the testing, and how the**  **5 ratings are going to be disseminated, how**  **6 things might be labeled, for example, those**  **7 kinds of aspects.**  **8 They're separate in the**  **9 regulations. They're all obviously related.**  **10 I understand how from some perspectives you**  **11 really can't make a decision about this**  **12 without knowing how some of those other things**  **13 are going to work out.**  **14 But I think at least from DOE's**  **15 perspective our view is that actually you can**  **16 because you could still define a pump the way**  **17 we have it up there and still write a standard**  **18 that, for example, sets an efficiency**  **19 requirement only for the bare pump and yet**  **20 still have a metric that covers all those**  **21 other things.**  **22 You could use standardized values** 

### Page 54

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 for the motor and the drive, or other assumed**  **2 elements within the test procedure that allow**  **3 you to compare only on the basis of bare pump**  **4 efficiency.**  **5 There are other ways of doing this**  **6 besides testing and rating every conceivable**  **7 combination of those three things.**  **8 So really what I'm trying to say**  **9 is that we're not necessarily setting a**  **10 standard on each one of those items. You can**  **11 still write a standard that effectively**  **12 compares pumps only based on the bare pump**  **13 efficiency, and yet still have a metric to**  **14 compare on the basis of the overall product.**  **15 And I think DOE's perspective is**  **16 that there is a significant potential benefit**  **17 to having that kind of comparative metric. We**  **18 want to be able to recognize the advantage of**  **19 using, for example, a system with a drive that**  **20 is variable speed for variable load conditions**  **21 compared with a single-speed throttle system.**  **22 There is significant potential** 

### Page 55

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 energy savings associated with that and we**  **2 believe that you can define a pump the way we**  **3 have it up here, or in some similar language**  **4 and still get to that and without it being**  **5 overly onerous. It's all in how we define the**  **6 downstream parts of the regulation some of**  **7 which we're going to discuss today.**  **8 So I just wanted to make sure that**  **9 that was clear at least from DOE's**  **10 perspective.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Both Louis and Tom.**  **12 Which one of you wishes to go first? Louis.**  **13 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA.**  **14 I think maybe a solution to this problem might**  **15 be if we maybe first go and figure out what**  **16 the scope of coverage is going to be. And**  **17 then that would help us define what a pump is.**  **18 So, ideally you would decide**  **19 what's going to be covered and what's not, and**  **20 based upon that you set what a pump is and**  **21 then you would back out.**  **22 So, if what we end up covering is** 

### Page 56

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 a whole bunch of things and set the scope of**  **2 coverage or the definition of "pump" to cover**  **3 the scope of coverage. And in the future if**  **4 that needs to expand then change the**  **5 definition of "pump."**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: This working group**  **7 has a lot of opportunity to do what it chooses**  **8 to do. I would just note that that's not the**  **9 way DOE typically does it.**  **10 (Laughter)**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.**  **12 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I appreciate**  **13 Louis' comment. I think from defining it with**  **14 all those components and leaving open the**  **15 question of as we proceed down the path of**  **16 deciding which products and what metrics are**  **17 regulated, having a broad definition gives us**  **18 the advantage to determine that.**  **19 We're going to -- this will not**  **20 avoid the discussion later on for an**  **21 integrated product of whether DOE considers a**  **22 distributor that produces this as a package** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 and puts it in their catalog for sale as a**  **2 manufacturer or not. That issue has to be**  **3 addressed if we're going to get to an**  **4 integrated product.**  **5 Not every product class here is**  **6 going to have an integrated product question**  **7 in front of it, but some are. Because that's**  **8 the way that, as Gary said, that's the way**  **9 they're packaged and sold today.**  **10 But circumventing the standard by**  **11 a distributor isn't where we want to go. So**  **12 I think we can get there with a broader**  **13 definition, but we don't -- we haven't crossed**  **14 the Rubicon yet. We're going to be there**  **15 again talking about where the distributor**  **16 plays in this game or not.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: So you would**  **18 advocate that these four elements all be**  **19 included. And did you have any thoughts about**  **20 whether it should be clean water as opposed to**  **21 fluids?**  **22 MR. ECKMAN: I think in terms of** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 our discussion so far that's a product class**  **2 definition. If DOE's view is that EPCA says**  **3 "pump" then it means all pumps, then this is**  **4 all pumps.**  **5 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner with**  **6 NRDC. Tom, I agree with your points on that,**  **7 but I think in terms of defining a covered**  **8 product before I would be ready to vote on**  **9 this I would want further clarity on the**  **10 preemption issues and how this definition**  **11 affects preemption. So I think that for me is**  **12 the sticking point today in terms of getting**  **13 to an answer on this.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.**  **16 Yes, in terms of the, you know, what is a**  **17 fluid I was kind of having a little sidebar**  **18 with Tom about what exactly is a fluid.**  **19 I'm just thinking since this is**  **20 covering industrial applications as well and**  **21 just with industrial you just have all sorts**  **22 of -- it could be pumping a whole wide variety** 

### Page 59

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 of I'll say different fluids and different**  **2 things.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Slurries.**  **4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right, exactly.**  **5 It's just a matter of that's where a lot of**  **6 energy is being used, but then it's a matter**  **7 of how much data does DOE need to collect if**  **8 we're going to look at I'll say all types of**  **9 fluid pumps in terms of our work.**  **10 I think a narrowing of the scope**  **11 is helpful, but I'm just, again, on the other**  **12 hand it's a matter of well, how much analysis**  **13 does DOE need to do in terms of, okay, if we**  **14 just do water, how much of the pumping energy**  **15 are we excluding by doing that.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: So you're**  **17 advocating for fluids, not clean water.**  **18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I would say I**  **19 think we might need to -- we might need to**  **20 define fluids I think in this case. Fluids if**  **21 defined. How about that?**  **22 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. I don't** 

### Page 60

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 think we have a problem as manufacturers with**  **2 the term "fluids" in this very broad**  **3 definition of pumps. I don't think we can say**  **4 that pumps only pump water in the DOE's view.**  **5 But we need to narrow the scope in**  **6 our rulemaking to something much smaller than**  **7 that. So I think we're working on two**  **8 different levels here.**  **9 Lucas, I believe you're trying to**  **10 get to a lever where this is the definition in**  **11 "pump" addressing the Federal Register saying**  **12 this is what a pump is.**  **13 From there our group can take a**  **14 much narrower view of this and say this is the**  **15 type of pumps we're going to regulate.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: And also address**  **17 Tom's concern at some point.**  **18 MR. CASE: Definitely.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: About that as well.**  **20 Gary I saw first and then back to Chuck.**  **21 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,**  **22 California IOU. I don't know that I can speak** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 for the other advocates but we agreed long ago**  **2 with the Hydraulics Institute that we wanted**  **3 to focus on clean water pumps due to the**  **4 complexity of trying to deal with commercial**  **5 industrial pumps that handle other fluids.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: I just want to**  **7 clarify again. So, non-clean water pumps is**  **8 on our list of things to discuss for scope of**  **9 negotiation.**  **10 So, I don't know that we**  **11 necessarily want to get stuck on that right**  **12 here because we can narrow down the scope**  **13 later on the specific product classes that**  **14 we're going to cover.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: The question for**  **16 the working group is do you want to try and**  **17 narrow the scope now through this definition,**  **18 or do you want to have a broad definition now,**  **19 something that might be quite inclusive, and**  **20 then subsequently in discussion through this**  **21 working group establish a scope that you think**  **22 is relevant, more narrow? That's the question** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 right now.**  **2 Chuck, I think you're next.**  **3 MR. POWERS: It's Chuck Powers,**  **4 Flowserve. Just another minor item and it**  **5 doesn't really directly impact this. But I**  **6 can envision and a perception that**  **7 manufacturers are going to have additional**  **8 pressure, I should say strategies that not all**  **9 the products they make will be in the path of**  **10 this, right?**  **11 That same pump may have to serve**  **12 another market in another country outside of**  **13 the U.S. So what could end up happening today**  **14 if they make a product a certain way, in order**  **15 to compete in other regions they're going to**  **16 have to still make this other product. So the**  **17 additional burden of cost and whatever could**  **18 impact those manufacturers. Right?**  **19 So it's just a point to note. Not**  **20 everybody is going to adopt just what the U.S.**  **21 does. And now we have the European. You**  **22 know, that's going to add additional pressure** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to companies, right? Just to be aware.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **3 MR. ADIN: Just a clarifying**  **4 question. So that point you just made, I**  **5 understand it generally. But does that have**  **6 bearing on the discussion generally, or is it**  **7 with respect to differentiation between clean**  **8 water pumps and non-clean water, that kind of**  **9 thing? Or is it just a general point?**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: It's a general**  **11 comment.**  **12 MR. ADIN: All right. Thank you.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Now to Al Huber.**  **14 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber,**  **15 Patterson. As manufacturers we're not opposed**  **16 to the broad definition of what a pump is as**  **17 long as we all understand that -- and just as**  **18 Gary so aptly put, all along we've been**  **19 working on clean water. And we really need to**  **20 stay focused to that I think.**  **21 And I think we're about to get to**  **22 a consensus here that we can vote for this** 

### Page 64

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 definition and move on.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: I also sense we may**  **3 be getting in that direction. Joanna?**  **4 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I was**  **5 actually going to say to follow on Meg's**  **6 comment I'm not sure we're prepared to vote on**  **7 a definition today.**  **8 And I think it's clear that the**  **9 definition can be as broad as we want it to**  **10 be, so I'm not sure it necessarily impacts our**  **11 discussions around what products we set**  **12 standards for.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: One thing that I am**  **14 going to adopt as a process feature is before**  **15 I call a vote from now on I'm going to give**  **16 any caucus an opportunity to meet prior to**  **17 calling a vote. We don't want to disrupt the**  **18 meetings a lot. It's got to be kind of a**  **19 brief gathering if we're going to do that. So**  **20 I'll just add that that's something that I**  **21 will introduce as a way for you to consult**  **22 with your fellow caucus members.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WALTNER: And a process**  **2 suggestion on that is we could table votes**  **3 till after lunch to allow us to caucus over**  **4 lunch rather than breaking up the meeting.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Another good idea.**  **6 Greg Towsley.**  **7 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **8 Grundfos. I wanted to throw something out, a**  **9 suggestion out and just get feedback from DOE**  **10 and the other manufacturers and the advocates.**  **11 It sounds like from just some of**  **12 the discussion, hearing about all the**  **13 different ways a pump could be defined, is it**  **14 possible to change the wording of your**  **15 definition up there, Alison?**  **16 The piece where you have "when**  **17 present," if you move that after "inclusive**  **18 of." And then that covers a bare pump with or**  **19 without a motor. So, "a pump is a device**  **20 inclusive of -- when present -- mechanical**  **21 equipment, driver and controls." Just, I was**  **22 just curious about some feedback from the** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 others.**  **2 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **3 Let me make a suggestion. When we put "pump**  **4 is a device that moves fluids by physical or**  **5 mechanical action and includes when present**  **6 mechanical equipment, drivers and controls."**  **7 I mean, you define the pump as the**  **8 pump and what it actually does. Then you say**  **9 "includes when present mechanical equipment,**  **10 drivers and controls."**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: I think I got that.**  **12 I made a note about it.**  **13 MR. HUBER: She's got it.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts.**  **15 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American**  **16 Water. I guess my only question would be what**  **17 does "when present" mean. So, does that mean**  **18 as purchased as a package? Does that mean as**  **19 installed? I think we have to -- that gets**  **20 muddy.**  **21 MR. POWERS: That's a good**  **22 question. Chuck Powers. I go to the next** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 page, right? And the next page was trying to**  **2 define it.**  **3 So if there's a spec that says**  **4 you've got a pump and a motor and there's no**  **5 gear in between it's when present. There**  **6 might be jobs where you have a gear in**  **7 between, you may not. That's what I look at.**  **8 Maybe I'd be reading it wrong.**  **9 But I think where Al's coming from**  **10 is when present. So you may have a spec that**  **11 says you have a pump, and if you look here a**  **12 gear, they show gears, belt-driven and some**  **13 you don't. So I think it's how it's specified**  **14 I guess.**  **15 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. But what**  **16 if I'm buying just the pump and retrofitting**  **17 it to an existing motor? How would that apply**  **18 to me?**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl.**  **20 MS. KOHL: This is DOE --**  **21 retrofits is another area where we wouldn't --**  **22 I mean, we regulate whatever the manufacturer** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 puts out the door or market. We wouldn't --**  **2 I mean, a retrofit is not something that we**  **3 would have authority over.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **6 Some of the folks in this room have not been**  **7 privy to all the discussions we had with the**  **8 NGOs prior to this.**  **9 So what we originally proposed, we**  **10 proposed to regulate through an MEI, a minimum**  **11 efficiency index, the pump itself.**  **12 Then we also proposed --**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Bare pump.**  **14 MR. HUBER: A bare pump -- an**  **15 extended product. And if we do it in that**  **16 manner then if you buy a bare pump then you**  **17 get the MEI, or whatever the efficiency index**  **18 is.**  **19 And then if you buy the rest of**  **20 the package from the manufacturer then you get**  **21 some other, I think we were going to call it**  **22 the EEI, energy efficient index, which would** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 tell a consumer what he's buying**  **2 efficiency-wise if he buys the whole package.**  **3 And that's what we proposed**  **4 originally to DOE and to the NGOs. Is that --**  **5 have I characterized that correctly? So, it**  **6 would cover both.**  **7 So if you as a consumer or -- as a**  **8 consumer only needed to buy the bare pump you**  **9 could certainly buy the bare pump. And it**  **10 would certainly be without a problem.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **12 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. So**  **13 obviously part of the issue we're dealing with**  **14 here is that we only get one word to describe**  **15 both those things which is that one. So**  **16 that's tricky.**  **17 I completely understand the issue**  **18 with the "when present" aspect. In fact, that**  **19 was bothering me a little bit too.**  **20 So I guess one other way of**  **21 thinking about this is instead of spelling out**  **22 all the things that could be attached to the** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 bare pump, if you're defining what it does, a**  **2 pump is a device that moves fluid while by**  **3 implication it has something that's making a**  **4 turn. It has some kind of driver. And if you**  **5 add onto that is capable of controlling its**  **6 speed or whatever then it has prospectively**  **7 some kind of speed control.**  **8 So, instead of spelling out**  **9 components alternatively you could write some**  **10 kind of language that defines its function in**  **11 a way that implies that it must have those**  **12 things, or could have them. If that makes**  **13 more sense. I don't know whether that's a**  **14 more useful way of looking at this.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, do you want to**  **16 follow on? Al Huber.**  **17 MR. HUBER: Yes, Al Huber from**  **18 Patterson Pump.**  **19 One of the -- and we're all trying**  **20 to step around this because we know, and we've**  **21 demonstrated to the NGOs and they know that**  **22 the greater savings are with the whole** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 package. I mean, by a huge amount. By a**  **2 factor of four to five or six times whatever**  **3 you could do to the pump itself, maybe more**  **4 than that.**  **5 So, if we don't write it where**  **6 we've got that in there then all we're going**  **7 to end up doing is having some efficiency**  **8 index for pumps and that's it and we're not**  **9 going to achieve the possible benefits to**  **10 society, to the U.S. of energy savings.**  **11 So I know that's why we're trying**  **12 to write that in here. And so I want to make**  **13 that clear to everybody so they understand.**  **14 If that's not in there and it's**  **15 only the pump that's all we're going to be**  **16 doing and we're going to bypass a lot of**  **17 savings.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I think as I'm**  **19 casting my eyes around the room that most**  **20 folks are generally feeling whether we vote on**  **21 the definition at this point or not. It**  **22 appears as though one group of advocates** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 doesn't want to do that.**  **2 Most people are pretty comfortable**  **3 with the intent behind including all of this**  **4 and then finding the right language, right?**  **5 Whether it's "when present" or some**  **6 configuration that gets to something that's**  **7 descriptive there, that generally that this**  **8 working group is accepting this broad**  **9 definition globally if not specifically. No?**  **10 Okay, Gary Fernstrom.**  **11 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **12 IOUs. We've used the term "when present."**  **13 How about we substitute "as manufactured?"**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking at a**  **15 few industry folks nodding yes as**  **16 manufacturers.**  **17 Another word that we used before**  **18 was something like "as shipped" which is**  **19 similar, analogous perhaps.**  **20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **21 EEI. As shipped by who?**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good point.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Charlie Cappellino.**  **2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Could it be as**  **3 sold? The commercial transaction.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.**  **5 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest**  **6 Power Council. I think the hangup, and I'll**  **7 speak for Meg because we've had these**  **8 discussions. I think the hangup here is --**  **9 this was stated earlier. The definition of a**  **10 covered product and the ability of the states**  **11 to move independent of that.**  **12 And so we either define for Gary**  **13 and the California IOUs a product that's**  **14 expansive in definition and prohibits any**  **15 state action, or we define a constrained**  **16 product up front and that allows for state**  **17 action.**  **18 And I think that's sort of where**  **19 the advocate side has misgivings about an**  **20 expansive definition versus a narrow one.**  **21 And that resolution probably can't**  **22 happen -- we can have a lunch discussion but** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 I'm guessing we can't have a productive**  **2 outcome to that unless DOE weighs in.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, okay. Gary**  **4 Fernstrom.**  **5 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **6 IOUs. I just don't want the scope to be broad**  **7 and the regulation narrow, prohibiting states**  **8 from utilizing the opportunity to find**  **9 efficiency measures.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: However, if the**  **11 definition was broad and the scope, the**  **12 application was broad, then that would work --**  **13 MR. FERNSTROM: That's fine. The**  **14 issue there is DOE for a lot of reasons is**  **15 usually not as rigorous as California might**  **16 be. But so long as there is not a prohibition**  **17 and no regulation we're happy with that.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you for**  **19 that. Greg Case.**  **20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic**  **21 Institute. Two things. I was wondering if**  **22 the advocates could state what their issues** 

### Page 75

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 with the preemption are so that maybe we could**  **2 get an answer from DOE. So, if you could**  **3 define what you needed back from them**  **4 hopefully we could get those answers.**  **5 And the second point I have to**  **6 make is as manufacturers we would prefer a**  **7 national regulation so that we had to meet one**  **8 hurdle instead of having to meet multiple**  **9 state hurdles.**  **10 And so we are -- as manufacturers**  **11 we are looking to, and that's why we came to**  **12 this table, we are looking to get a single**  **13 regulation that we can meet and that we can**  **14 follow. And hopefully manufacture everything**  **15 to that level.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Right,**  **17 understandably. Meg Waltner?**  **18 MS. WALTNER: Yes. I guess the**  **19 specific question is whether -- how we define**  **20 "pump" here defines what is the covered**  **21 product and therefore what is preempted. I'm**  **22 not asking for an answer to that. I think I'd** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 want us to look at that issue more and I think**  **2 it's an issue for further discussion.**  **3 And then I think part of the**  **4 long-term thinking here is say we leave some**  **5 things out of the scope of this rulemaking.**  **6 DOE has sort of a long-term time frame before**  **7 it can consider another rulemaking and then an**  **8 effective date for that next rulemaking.**  **9 Perhaps in 3 years something that**  **10 we left off the table here might be something**  **11 we want to consider even jointly for our state**  **12 standard first. And I wouldn't want this**  **13 decision right now to preclude that. So I**  **14 think that's what's guiding our thinking on**  **15 that.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock,**  **17 then to Louis.**  **18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **19 EEI. And I'll just kind of use another**  **20 example.**  **21 DOE just came out with a proposed**  **22 rule on the large motors, one to five hundred** 

### Page 77

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 horsepower. They're adding a new category**  **2 called brake electric motors and that size**  **3 range is one to thirty horsepower. And let's**  **4 say the rule could be final soon and the**  **5 regulations go into effect in 3 to 5 years.**  **6 Suppose a state wanted to regulate**  **7 brake electric motors next year to be**  **8 effective in a year and a half. DOE never**  **9 covered them before. Now they're covering**  **10 them but they're not effective necessarily**  **11 yet.**  **12 Or suppose there's another type of**  **13 motor that's not covered that's in that**  **14 category, again, some sort of motor X that a**  **15 state wants to regulate. Under -- because DOE**  **16 isn't specifically covering it, it's some sort**  **17 of motor that a state wants to cover, what**  **18 would DOE's response be in that case? Because**  **19 I think it might have bearing. I'm just**  **20 saying are there other precedents with other**  **21 types of products where a state wanted to**  **22 regulate something that is -- might be under** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 a category but wasn't specifically regulated.**  **2 MS. KOHL: So, this is Betsy Kohl**  **3 from DOE General Counsel.**  **4 I don't think we want to get into**  **5 motors because there are some different**  **6 preemption rules for different products.**  **7 But the general rule of preemption**  **8 that applies to pumps is that if we were to**  **9 define in this rulemaking a pump is a device**  **10 that moves clean water, right, that's how pump**  **11 is defined.**  **12 So states could come in until**  **13 perhaps in a future rulemaking we were able to**  **14 amend that definition to include the states**  **15 who come in and regulate things that were not**  **16 covered by the definition.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.**  **18 MR. STARR: I guess what I could**  **19 use from DOE to help me prepare for this vote,**  **20 and the reason I mentioned doing this is that**  **21 after discovering why to do this after we**  **22 figured out what is covered is if we accept** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 this broad definition, and then we get into**  **2 the what's covered and it turns out that**  **3 there's nothing but the bare pump that we're**  **4 having as a regulation I don't understand why**  **5 we define it so broadly.**  **6 And what would clarify whether**  **7 it's just going to be more than a bare pump is**  **8 whether they have the ability to regulate**  **9 manufacturers. If they don't all we're ever**  **10 going to do is regulate the bare pump.**  **11 So really I guess what I need from**  **12 DOE is understanding -- either we can do the**  **13 second part first or they can just tell us now**  **14 that we're going to have a mechanism which**  **15 we're going to be able to regulate**  **16 distributors.**  **17 If the answer is no then that**  **18 seems problematic.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl.**  **20 MS. KOHL: I think what we were**  **21 talking about here is if we were to change**  **22 that definition to talk about when** 

### Page 80

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 manufactured.**  **2 The definition of "manufacture" in**  **3 EPCA means to manufacturer, produce, assemble,**  **4 or import. So we would have some flexibility**  **5 there.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you repeat**  **7 that, Betsy?**  **8 MS. KOHL: Yes. So, we were**  **9 talking about altering the definition of a**  **10 pump to talk about it including those parts**  **11 when it's manufactured that way. And the**  **12 definition of "manufacture" in Section 6291 of**  **13 EPCA means to manufacture, produce, assemble,**  **14 or import. So we would have some additional**  **15 flexibility.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's fairly**  **17 broad, fairly broad. Louis, keep going.**  **18 MR. STARR: One other item. And I**  **19 used to work as a design engineer so I used to**  **20 specify stuff all the time.**  **21 As I didn't bother to bring it up**  **22 because I thought it wouldn't matter but now** 

### Page 81

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 it does. 2 Typically when you put out a spec**  **3 you split up the spec and sometimes you'll 4 have the electrical engineer will specify the**  **5 motors and the drives. And in a construction 6 project which there's quite a bit of the**  **7 market is commercial, probably 20-30 percent 8 of your things. I don't know how that**  **9 translates into pumps but it's a fair amount. 10 You'll have the electrical**  **11 engineer specify in the VFD separately. And 12 the reason you do that is you want the same**  **13 drive manufacturer so you don't have problems 14 with communications if they're networked**  **15 together. Also it makes the startup of all 16 the VFDs easier and there's better**  **17 communication. 18 And also when you bid the job out**  **19 you can get several manufacturers bidding at 20 the same time so you can get the best price.**  **21 And so there's some mechanisms in the 22 construction process.** 

### Page 82

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 So, you wouldn't -- what you would**  **2 do is you would end up having the electrical**  **3 install the VFDS, someone else, the mechanical**  **4 would probably install the motors and the**  **5 pumps. But there would be a split. And so a**  **6 lot of times it wouldn't go to the**  **7 manufacturer.**  **8 So the manufacturer would actually**  **9 be the contractor is what would be happening,**  **10 is that they would be putting these pieces**  **11 together like Frankenstein. And so that kind**  **12 of opens up another area. The manufacturer --**  **13 is the contractor putting stuff together also**  **14 a manufacturer now or not?**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl.**  **16 MS. KOHL: I think that the**  **17 flexibility that's afforded by the statute is**  **18 a different question as to how far we would go**  **19 down that path. I mean, you can see a lot of**  **20 issues with that potential approach.**  **21 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **22 IOUs. In the spirit of trying to get to** 

### Page 83

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 agreement here I liked Louis' suggestion that**  **2 maybe we could do the second part first.**  **3 Maybe we can talk about what -- we do want to**  **4 regulate and then contemplate the scope**  **5 subsequent to that, given all the**  **6 scope-related issues.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: I was about to put**  **8 that question to folks to see what they had to**  **9 say about that. Especially given the fact**  **10 that we've heard from the advocates, some of**  **11 the advocates that they don't think they'd be**  **12 able to vote on this perhaps today, or at**  **13 least not right now.**  **14 So what do you think? Should we**  **15 move onto a discussion of scope?**  **16 There are a few other rather**  **17 specific things that seem like that we could**  **18 address if you look in the discussion there.**  **19 That maybe we could simply get some clarity on**  **20 these things.**  **21 What is the best term, bare pump,**  **22 pump head or pump wet end. Does that make any** 

### Page 84

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 difference? Mark, I'm looking at you. Mark**  **2 Handzel.**  **3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem.**  **4 Bare pump works, is fine. It makes it very**  **5 clear to us.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Anybody can just**  **7 chime in and register a different -- I see**  **8 several individuals nodding their heads up and**  **9 down so I presume that one's okay. Yes.**  **10 What's the best term, driver or**  **11 prime mover? Does it make any difference?**  **12 Mark.**  **13 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **14 Xylem. I would stick with driver just because**  **15 it again specifically tells what's driving the**  **16 pump.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm casting my**  **18 eyes. Anybody that disagrees with that one,**  **19 driver? Gary.**  **20 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **21 IOUs. There is some potential for confusion**  **22 with drive as in variable speed drive. So I** 

### Page 85

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 don't care. Is the pump industry's preference**  **2 to go with driver as the mechanical mover?**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **4 MR. HUBER: We anticipated that**  **5 the controls may be VFDS, may be a push**  **6 button, may be a lot of things. So we're**  **7 going to call them controls so that we don't**  **8 eliminate any possibilities. And there may be**  **9 something else invented to control later on.**  **10 So we just thought it would be better to call**  **11 the driver anything driving the pump and the**  **12 control anything controlling that.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **14 MR. ADIN: And just to mention**  **15 that DOE's view exactly conforms with what you**  **16 just described, Al, as far as controls,**  **17 defining those things downstream of the drive**  **18 and right. So that's more or less what we**  **19 were thinking of too.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: So the last**  **21 proposal on the table was that we table this**  **22 at this point and we move to a discussion of** 

### Page 86

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 scope. Or resume the discussion of scope that**  **2 we had in our first meeting.**  **3 Although let me state -- I'm not**  **4 going to restate it at this point. I think**  **5 we're globally -- I'm not going to restate it**  **6 at this point. Let's move to scope.**  **7 And then I also thought it was**  **8 useful, I think it was Meg's suggestion that**  **9 if anybody in the room had specific questions**  **10 about preemption that we haven't covered so**  **11 far, if you could write them down so that we**  **12 can hand them to DOE general counsel over**  **13 lunch.**  **14 And maybe we can get some clarity**  **15 after lunch, or maybe it will take longer than**  **16 that. But we ought to just -- we keep kind of**  **17 bumping up against preemption. I think we're**  **18 kind of -- it seems to me like we're mostly**  **19 answering it, but there still seems to be some**  **20 uncertainty. Steve Rosenstock.**  **21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.**  **22 On the next page where it says -- I know it** 

### Page 87

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 says possible definition. I think at least**  **2 for these -- these are definitions that can be**  **3 used in our discussions.**  **4 Rather than saying it has to be in**  **5 the covered product I think we can probably**  **6 get consensus that these are definitions we**  **7 can agree to for our discussions of coverage**  **8 and eventual standards.**  **9 Rather than saying this is in the**  **10 covered product say these are definitions**  **11 we've agreed to for our discussions going**  **12 forward.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **14 So then maybe we can do that. Just run**  **15 through these possible definitions while we're**  **16 here, while it's still fresh in our minds.**  **17 What do you think? Bare pump based on the**  **18 various pump types equipment classes**  **19 considered for coverage? I'm referring to**  **20 slide number 4.**  **21 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. I**  **22 actually think that this is wrong and it might** 

### Page 88

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 actually need to be a broader definition of a 2 bare pump. Because we don't define it**  **3 actually based on the scope of this 4 rulemaking.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Should we proceed 6 with these definitions here, or should we go**  **7 on to scope, Alison? What would be your 8 advice?**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, these are 10 pretty general so I don't know how much --**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's try it. 12 Let's just set aside bare pump and look at**  **13 mechanical equipment. Mechanical equipment 14 may include belts, gears and other equipment.**  **15 What do you think? Is that sufficient? 16 "Other equipment" is pretty broad.**  **17 You good with "other?" I'm just 18 saying "other equipment" is pretty broad,**  **19 right? Doug? Lucas. 20 MR. ADIN: Again, another way of**  **21 thinking about these definitions and the way 22 we do sometimes with definitions for other** 

### Page 89

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 products or components of other products is**  **2 instead of just spelling out exactly what**  **3 those things might be, just saying what**  **4 they're -- the broad purpose.**  **5 So like, for example, where it**  **6 says driver you don't have to spell out it's**  **7 an electric motor, or a gas engine, or a steam**  **8 turbine, whatever. It's just the machine that**  **9 is providing -- whatever's driving it.**  **10 Whatever is providing mechanical energy input**  **11 to drive the -- that way you cover the whole,**  **12 any type of driver that -- right.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, then so**  **14 far two of the three don't seem to be as**  **15 written here -- it would be nice if we had**  **16 stuff that's written for them to be reviewed.**  **17 Go ahead, Lucas Adin.**  **18 MR. ADIN: Right. So, before we**  **19 -- these are items that we could probably**  **20 address either at the next break. Or if we**  **21 caucus prior to a vote on these items we'll**  **22 summarize the comments we've been making, come** 

### Page 90

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 up with some revised proposals for us to**  **2 discuss.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr. I'm**  **4 thinking that we should be moving towards**  **5 scope, Louis.**  **6 MR. STARR: Just on the mechanical**  **7 equipment. So, does coupling get in there?**  **8 Does it need to be in there? Other equipment.**  **9 Okay.**  **10 Is there other things besides**  **11 couplings? How else would you drive --**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Chuck? Get on**  **13 the microphone there.**  **14 MR. POWERS: Sorry. You could**  **15 have mag drives. There's all types of other**  **16 devices.**  **17 But I would also want to go back**  **18 to the very first one on pump, bare pump, in**  **19 that I think the wording in there is very**  **20 critical to me on the classes to be considered**  **21 for coverage. If that wording isn't in there**  **22 then it is too broad.** 

### Page 91

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'll make a**  **2 note. Lucas Adin?**  **3 MR. POWERS: The other comment I**  **4 would make is on the first page we've already**  **5 decided the definition on some of the items,**  **6 to take those words out that don't apply.**  **7 Just like you did on the first, if you go back**  **8 a page.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Bob**  **10 Barbour.**  **11 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO.**  **12 One of my concerns when you start talking**  **13 about bare pumps is circulators, really how**  **14 you're going to test a bare pump on a**  **15 circulator. I don't think that's something**  **16 that you can do, particularly with a wet pump.**  **17 MR. ADIN: Just to respond**  **18 briefly. Thanks, Doug. That's getting more**  **19 into the issue of test procedure which we're**  **20 going to get to, I don't know if it will be**  **21 today, probably tomorrow.**  **22 But there is a broader question** 

### Page 92

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 about how you're really going to test any of**  **2 these configurations. So a bare pump even for**  **3 one of the larger types, not a circulator**  **4 specifically but there's some either assumed**  **5 driver or whatever it is. You'll have to have**  **6 something driving the pump to do the test.**  **7 So we'll discuss how in practice**  **8 those things might work. So I think that**  **9 might get more to your question.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Mark**  **11 Handzel.**  **12 MR. HANDZEL: Just regarding slide**  **13 4 where it talks about controls. It's not**  **14 just to control the speed, it's to control**  **15 on/off as well. So we need to modify that to**  **16 get that in there somehow, Alison.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **18 Well, we are making progress with this. Any**  **19 additional comments on these definitions as**  **20 you see here? I guess we could just keep**  **21 reviewing them as sort of a preliminary sense.**  **22 No additional comments here? Al** 

### Page 93

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Huber.**  **2 MR. HUBER: Is it your intent to**  **3 develop these and then caucus and then vote**  **4 after lunch? Is that what you're --**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, whenever it's**  **6 convenient and whenever people are ready to do**  **7 it.**  **8 MR. HUBER: If we could get a copy**  **9 of that right quick so that we're all looking**  **10 at the same thing, make sure there's no -- and**  **11 then come back.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **13 MR. POWERS: And Chuck Powers**  **14 again. Going back to the first page, just**  **15 when we vote. You did a nice job correcting**  **16 the word behind "pump." You got rid of the**  **17 stuff that we agreed on.**  **18 The same thing should apply to**  **19 discussion. If we've already agreed or have**  **20 discussed it's bare pump and not the others,**  **21 remove the others.**  **22 That way when we vote people don't** 

### Page 94

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 think well, which one was it. Because even**  **2 though you highlighted it which was nice,**  **3 people may not understand that.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **5 MS. WILLIAMS: How about I just**  **6 delete them?**  **7 MR. POWERS: Yes, just like you**  **8 did on the first.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Because they're in**  **10 here. Bare pump and driver in the picture.**  **11 No?**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: The definition is**  **13 inside the -- oh, I've got you.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm not sure. I**  **15 think this still needs some work.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Driver. Okay, and**  **17 controls, right. Okay. Joanna?**  **18 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I think**  **19 Lucas may have been getting at this, but the**  **20 definition for mechanical equipment doesn't**  **21 really seem like a definition to me.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, he started off** 

### Page 95

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 by saying something like mechanical energy 2 input. Oh, that was driver? Oh, pardon me,**  **3 correct. Pardon me, I'm mistaken. 4 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. I**  **5 mean in theory we could come up with just a 6 more generic descriptive term, you know,**  **7 peripheral, I don't know if that's quite the 8 right word to use. But Al, do you have a**  **9 suggestion? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, Al Huber.**  **11 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 12 It's a transfer of energy from the driver to**  **13 the pump. So it would be any mechanical 14 device that transfers energy from the driver**  **15 to the pump. And that gets you couplings and 16 gears and belts and anything else you have.**  **17 MR. ADIN: Right and Lucas Adin, 18 DOE. Just to clarify, those components are**  **19 not transferring energy to other peripheral 20 equipment. They are only transferring energy**  **21 from the driver to the bare pump, to the 22 impeller and making the fluid move. They're** 

### Page 96

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 not running some kind of other, I don't know**  **2 what there would be, but just to be clear**  **3 about that. It's only transferring energy**  **4 from the driver to the bare pump.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Al, do you like**  **6 what's written up there? And I guess that**  **7 "may include belts, gears, couplings, or other**  **8 equipment" that's useful? Not necessary. Go**  **9 ahead, Chuck.**  **10 MR. POWERS: Sorry. I'm okay with**  **11 what Al said, but just recognize something.**  **12 If it's a coupling generally speaking based on**  **13 the type of coupling you have, no losses.**  **14 Right? Normally. There's some higher speed**  **15 stuff that changes it.**  **16 If you have a gear you will have**  **17 an effect on efficiency. So I think it's**  **18 important just to, you know, Al brought up a**  **19 good point, but based on the device you could**  **20 have another collecting in the wheel that's**  **21 going to reduce efficiency to that overall**  **22 wire to water output you're talking about,** 

### Page 97

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 right? So it just depends on how you do it.**  **2 And I would also extend it, you**  **3 don't need to put it in there but just**  **4 recognize based on equipment the package could**  **5 include the base, other things that make the**  **6 unit properly operate.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: So Alison is**  **8 suggesting deleting that second line as you**  **9 can see. Everybody okay with that? Yes.**  **10 Lucas, please.**  **11 MR. ADIN: Just for the general**  **12 information of the group here, once we've**  **13 finished with going through and making edits**  **14 and coming up with something that we might**  **15 think we might want to vote on we're going to**  **16 print up some copies for everyone.**  **17 They won't be in color, but, I**  **18 know, disappointing. At least you'll have**  **19 something to discuss when we go into caucus.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **22 EEI. For the driver it says the machine** 

### Page 98

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 providing mechanical input to drive the blank.**  **2 What was the intent after the blank? Ah,**  **3 thank you.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's**  **5 pretty broad, right? Pretty generic.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: So, delete these**  **7 examples here?**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, you're**  **9 next, please.**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. Do you guys**  **11 want these examples in here?**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. So, I**  **13 think we've now edited all of them if I'm not**  **14 mistaken. So, just additional comments on**  **15 page 2, these definitions here, if there are**  **16 any at this point. Alison? Oh, I see. Greg**  **17 and then Mark.**  **18 MR. CASE: On the driver, Chuck**  **19 actually brought this up. We're going to**  **20 drive the bare pump but we're actually through**  **21 the mechanical equipment. Again, if we go to**  **22 the gear, something like that, there may be** 

### Page 99

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 losses involved.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. And Mark.**  **3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **4 Xylem. So, under controls you added use the**  **5 control, the driver. But then the next line**  **6 you say adjust the speed of the motor.**  **7 Shouldn't motor be driver?**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: This is just an**  **9 example line so it can be whatever you want.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Charlie**  **11 Cappellino.**  **12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **13 Cappellino, ITT. It might be inferred, but I**  **14 think the definition of "bare pump" would be**  **15 improved by saying it's a device that moves**  **16 fluids by physical or mechanical action,**  **17 excluding mechanical equipment, driver and**  **18 controls. I think that's the distinction of**  **19 the word "bare" is that intent.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: We're making**  **21 progress here, this is good. Any further**  **22 comments, scrutiny on these definitions?** 

### Page 100

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Chuck.**  **2 MR. POWERS: We're having a lot of**  **3 side discussion. We keep changing stuff. I**  **4 guess my comment was the very top statement**  **5 said "covered product" and then we removed it**  **6 as considered coverage. But I just want to --**  **7 if that's the case, fine. That's all.**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, this?**  **9 MR. HANDZEL: The heading on the**  **10 slide is not really covered product.**  **11 MR. POWERS: It's general**  **12 definition, but the top of the slide talks**  **13 about covered product.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: So, they do define**  **15 components of the covered product. So.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Restate that,**  **17 whoever said -- Chuck, I didn't get your point**  **18 about the header. Or Mark, go ahead.**  **19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **20 Xylem. So it's not really covered product**  **21 because we haven't decided what covered**  **22 product is. So this is really a general** 

### Page 101

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 description of pumps. I mean, I don't know**  **2 what you want to call it, Lucas, but I just --**  **3 what we're saying is we don't think we want to**  **4 say that that's covered product because it's**  **5 not decided yet.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **7 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. I**  **8 don't have any disagreement about that point**  **9 in particular. I mean, I think at some point**  **10 we need to come up with some understanding of**  **11 what these terms mean because we're going to**  **12 be addressing them all.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case. Thank**  **14 you, Lucas, by the way. Greg Case.**  **15 MR. CASE: Greg Case with HI.**  **16 Maybe we're having trouble with -- when you**  **17 look at pumps in the Federal Register that's**  **18 the covered product? Or is the covered**  **19 product what we're going to decide here in**  **20 this negotiated agreement? As far as the**  **21 scope of what we're going to -- yes.**  **22 So, if covered product is the big** 

### Page 102

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 general definition, we're fine with that. If**  **2 covered product is what we're going to bore**  **3 down to and regulate in this rulemaking that's**  **4 different.**  **5 MR. ADIN: Covered product is the**  **6 broader category. So it is the universe of**  **7 pumps. We're going to set standards for**  **8 something within that.**  **9 And just like the example I gave**  **10 with motors earlier, very broad definition.**  **11 We have standards for specific types of**  **12 motors. And so that's how this is going to**  **13 work.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for the**  **15 clarification, Lucas. Charlie, yes? We're**  **16 all set? Okay. Louis Starr.**  **17 MR. STARR: Well, maybe this is**  **18 too soon. Do you need a definition for**  **19 integrated product? Or not? In other words**  **20 when two pieces go together and they're, you**  **21 know, can't really be separated.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: It's been called --** 

### Page 103

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 integrated has been called extended. Go**  **2 ahead.**  **3 MR. ADIN: Well, just to clarify,**  **4 at least as we have it up there now, the**  **5 proposed definition of a pump, that is a pump.**  **6 All those things put together constitutes a**  **7 pump. So, effectively you don't need a**  **8 separate definition for an extended product or**  **9 something like that because it's a pump.**  **10 MR. STARR: Well, I wasn't even**  **11 thinking of extended. What I was thinking of**  **12 was a wet rotor pump which can't really be --**  **13 they're sold as one piece together and so**  **14 they're not, they can't really be separated.**  **15 It's different in an extended**  **16 product. You can actually buy one piece,**  **17 another piece, or you can manufacture them.**  **18 So there's multiple ways of putting them**  **19 together, whereas the --**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, thank you,**  **21 and then back to Lucas.**  **22 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify, are** 

### Page 104

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 you talking about like a close coupled pump? 2 Or something that's -- the motor is integral**  **3 to the impeller portion? 4 MR. STARR: The circulator, wet**  **5 runner circulator. 6 MR. ADIN: Right. So this**  **7 definition wouldn't exclude something like 8 that. I mean, it would still be implicitly**  **9 included. I mean, that's my understanding. 10 If you think that's not clear we can --**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: We're going to 12 continue on this. Mark Handzel.**  **13 MR. HANDZEL: No, I think the 14 discussion covered -- the answer is yes and**  **15 yes. So it's covered. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you,**  **17 Mark. Meg. 18 MS. WALTNER: I wonder within the**  **19 definition of a pump we need to clarify that 20 it always includes a bare pump, and then a**  **21 bare pump -- I mean, my understanding of the 22 intent is that it's a bare pump, any and all** 

### Page 105

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 of those things. Right? But it always**  **2 includes a bare pump. Maybe I'm getting to --**  **3 reading it too closely.**  **4 MR. ADIN: I understand your**  **5 point. You wouldn't want to not cover**  **6 something if it's -- right.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I think**  **8 that's a clarification. Okay.**  **9 Additional thoughts? I think**  **10 we've made good progress on this. I think we**  **11 -- Alison, do you have additional thoughts,**  **12 queries on this?**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't think so.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: You don't think so?**  **15 Okay. So I think that we've made edits to the**  **16 first slide, slide 3. We've made significant**  **17 edits to slide 4. I'll take additional**  **18 comments here. Gary Fernstrom.**  **19 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **20 IOUs. Just on the next slide. We changed the**  **21 heading here to general description of pump**  **22 components. But on the next slide --** 

### Page 106

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: The previous slide?**  **2 MR. FERNSTROM: I was worried**  **3 about possible definition of covered product,**  **4 but this is a preceding slide so please**  **5 disregard my comments.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.**  **7 So, I want to suggest, we're slated to spend**  **8 another half an hour or so before we head to**  **9 lunch. How are you doing, are you hanging in**  **10 there okay? Yes? Good. Another half an**  **11 hour.**  **12 So let's -- I think we've made**  **13 good progress on definition of covered product**  **14 and general description of pump components.**  **15 That's good.**  **16 I guess we'll try and get that**  **17 printed off maybe prior to lunch so they can**  **18 take it with them during lunch. So that means**  **19 somebody needs to do that soon. Can you send**  **20 it to somebody?**  **21 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't know, it's**  **22 not my computer.** 

### Page 107

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **2 EEI. Could you copy and paste into an email**  **3 to email it to people? There aren't that many**  **4 -- everyone would have it on their device.**  **5 That might make it a little easier rather than**  **6 dealing with a printer.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good idea.**  **8 So I was just trying to make sure we're good**  **9 with the sequence here.**  **10 And then I'm going to suggest**  **11 while they're doing that that we shift to this**  **12 discussion of scope. Which I think we made**  **13 really good progress in the first meeting on**  **14 the scope and understandably not everybody was**  **15 -- one, we weren't fully agreed, and two, not**  **16 everybody was ready to make a vote. So I want**  **17 to continue that discussion.**  **18 Yes, Chuck.**  **19 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers,**  **20 Flowserve. Just a question to help me. If**  **21 I'm going to look at scope, and maybe as a**  **22 manufacturer I think the page 6 and 7 to me** 

### Page 108

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 would be important to understand first which**  **2 could relate back to the other scope, right?**  **3 In my opinion.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **5 MR. ADIN: Right, understood. And**  **6 we expected that we would talk about those**  **7 things first. We put the list up front, but**  **8 understanding that all those things following,**  **9 you know, all the pump types and the data, all**  **10 that would be needed to deliberate about what**  **11 we do with all these things that are in**  **12 yellow.**  **13 MR. POWERS: So we will agree on 6**  **14 and 7 first. Then we'll go back to 5.**  **15 MR. ADIN: That's probably a more**  **16 logical way to do it.**  **17 MR. POWERS: Okay.**  **18 MR. ADIN: Yes.**  **19 MR. POWERS: And then one other**  **20 suggestion to help throughout the next couple**  **21 of days, 6 months till we get to this, just to**  **22 help in my opinion.** 

### Page 109

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 When you go over to page 8, just**  **2 fit for purpose, I like the idea of the**  **3 picture, DOE's classification and then the**  **4 ANSI Hydraulic Institute. I think the**  **5 Hydraulic Institute piece is very important**  **6 because a lot of people globally will relate**  **7 to that more than others.**  **8 And the reason I bring that up, as**  **9 you get back we continue to use HI. But when**  **10 you go to other pages throughout this it kind**  **11 of disappears. So, I just want to make sure**  **12 wherever we relate to the product type we**  **13 relate to an HI definition. So we have that.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: This came up in the**  **15 first meeting several times. We need to be**  **16 consistent and clear about the nomenclature.**  **17 And so this working group needs to agree how**  **18 they're going to do it.**  **19 One, what you're suggesting is the**  **20 HI definitions be the guiding nomenclature.**  **21 And we heard last meeting that the consultant**  **22 team had done a crosswalk with the different** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 --**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: It's here. This is**  **3 Alison Williams. On page 9 and 10 is the**  **4 crosswalk. So I think he's just meaning that**  **5 we didn't carry the crosswalk through the**  **6 remainder of the slides which is correct.**  **7 And I think after we agree on**  **8 which products we want to cover and which HI**  **9 nomenclatures fall into each category it will**  **10 be easier to carry that through in the future.**  **11 So we'll take note of that.**  **12 MR. POWERS: Okay, I have no**  **13 problem, I just want to be clear. The reason**  **14 is if you go to page 12 for an example we get**  **15 into numbers and all. I'm sure we're going to**  **16 have plenty of discussion there.**  **17 What's missing is the HI**  **18 classification. I just don't want certain**  **19 groups or people out there looking one**  **20 direction. We've got to fine-tune it so we're**  **21 not making mistakes.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. It's a good** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 point. Okay.**  **2 Now, then are we prepared to start**  **3 with, as Chuck suggests, 6 and 7 and see where**  **4 we end up at?**  **5 So you see on 6 possible**  **6 exclusions for discussion. Steve Rosenstock.**  **7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **8 EEI. Again, I appreciate all the work that**  **9 went into it. I'm just kind of curious if DOE**  **10 had any information about -- and again, I'm**  **11 just kind of curious. There's like 40,000**  **12 water utilities in the United States. How**  **13 much energy is used by I'll say the first**  **14 line, the waste water sump and some of that**  **15 stuff?**  **16 How much, compared to some of the**  **17 other -- I'm just kind of curious if there's**  **18 any estimates in terms of how much they're**  **19 using. I'm not excluding them, I'm just kind**  **20 of curious in terms of how much are we talking**  **21 about.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ADIN: I don't think we have**  **2 any specific figures on that item. It's**  **3 something we might be able to find, but I can**  **4 speak at least from personal experience that**  **5 there is another group at DOE that's been**  **6 evaluating water energy issues. And they have**  **7 had some difficulty in characterizing waste**  **8 water energy use generally. So, that could be**  **9 a difficult figure to obtain.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: So it's just,**  **11 Lucas, don't let me put you on the spot.**  **12 However, can you just generally -- I'm**  **13 thinking about the conversation we had at the**  **14 first meeting. Can you generally describe**  **15 what the logic is for these types of pumps to**  **16 be excluded?**  **17 MR. ADIN: Sure. So, in the most**  **18 general sense I think what we're trying to do**  **19 is cover a group of pumps that are in**  **20 relatively wide use that have significant**  **21 energy consumption for which we could likely**  **22 achieve cost-justifiable energy savings.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 And for some of these types of**  **2 pumps they're either used in an application in**  **3 which the requirements are very specific. So**  **4 API 610 pumps, for example, have very**  **5 stringent requirements. They pump petroleum**  **6 products, that kind of thing. Making**  **7 modifications might be very cost-prohibitive.**  **8 So that's obviously one potential reason.**  **9 Others have safety requirements.**  **10 Others have -- they're just unique enough or**  **11 modifications are complicated enough that it**  **12 didn't seem likely that it would be**  **13 economically feasible to get a standard that**  **14 would work within this particular rulemaking.**  **15 Now, that's based obviously on a**  **16 lot of preliminary information that came out**  **17 of the framework document. It's not that**  **18 we're -- we've already decided to shut the**  **19 door on them. We just put up the list that**  **20 came from the framework document so we're open**  **21 to discussion.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: This is good. This** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 is the basis for discussion. Al Huber.**  **2 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **3 To answer your question on the first line,**  **4 wastewater, sumps, slurries, solids handling,**  **5 those pumps are designed for particular**  **6 reasons. And what someone is concerned about**  **7 or the consumer, the user is, is that will it**  **8 pass the solids that it's supposed to pass.**  **9 And if you define an efficiency**  **10 that it can't then you -- that defeats**  **11 efficiency, unfortunately. But I mean, that's**  **12 just the way life is. And that's one reason.**  **13 The other thing that I want to**  **14 point out here about the wastewater is that**  **15 they are developed specifically for a specific**  **16 use. And the same is for the API 610.**  **17 And a lot of these are regulated**  **18 at this point, the API 610 for instance. Fire**  **19 pumps. They're designed for a very specific**  **20 purpose and that's what they're designed for.**  **21 And that's the reason these were not included**  **22 originally.** 

### Page 115

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: The HI proposal,**  **2 did it offer these as exclusions?**  **3 MR. HUBER: Yes.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I**  **5 thought. Okay, thank you. Chuck.**  **6 MR. POWERS: And I agree with**  **7 everything Al says. And I think also the**  **8 design itself with strings, rocks, things like**  **9 that, you have to design the product with wear**  **10 rings and things that you can help efficiency**  **11 with opposite of our thinking of helping**  **12 efficiency. And if you don't it won't work.**  **13 But going back to this list**  **14 specifically, a couple of recommendations.**  **15 The globe does not refer, it's not really an**  **16 accepted term, ANSI chemical. It should be**  **17 ASME.**  **18 And right after ASME -- A-S-M-E.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: A-S-M-E.**  **20 MR. POWERS: The specification is**  **21 actually ASME. And right after that I would**  **22 put a slash ISO.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: I-S-O.**  **2 MR. POWERS: I-S-O. Okay, just to**  **3 make sure that it's a chemical product and**  **4 it's covering it properly from a technical.**  **5 Charlie, you'd be okay with that?**  **6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie agrees,**  **8 okay.**  **9 MR. POWERS: And the next one is**  **10 in my opinion in the NFPA fire water industry,**  **11 again specifically Al mentioned there's a lot**  **12 of self-insured customers out there,**  **13 industries, and then there's insured kinds,**  **14 right? And in that case I would remove the**  **15 word "with certification." I would just leave**  **16 it as fire pumps.**  **17 Because there's people that don't**  **18 need the certification because they're**  **19 self-insured. There's people that do but you**  **20 know, you can't, in my opinion I think you**  **21 just remove the word "certification."**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: What does "with** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 certification" mean?**  **2 MR. POWERS: There's different**  **3 bodies out there, even governed by our own**  **4 government -- Underwriters Laboratories and**  **5 stuff. There's an industry out there that**  **6 doesn't necessarily require that based on the**  **7 needs.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **9 MR. ADIN: Just to ask a**  **10 clarifying question there. I mean, I think**  **11 our general assumption had been that to be**  **12 considered a fire pump and used in, you know,**  **13 whether it's to meet codes, or whatever**  **14 requirements there are for the installation of**  **15 a fire pump it has to be certified as some**  **16 kind of NFPA standard.**  **17 And that's I think more what that**  **18 was getting at. Like to be a fire pump and to**  **19 be able to use it as a fire pump it has to be**  **20 certified something.**  **21 MR. POWERS: Yes, it does. But I**  **22 think the definition of certification means** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 it's -- the product is, you know, it's a**  **2 label. Even though they're made the same,**  **3 right. And it also goes through a lot of**  **4 requirements.**  **5 I just think the definition of**  **6 fire pump is good enough.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: I understood your**  **8 point about some groups self-certify. But it**  **9 does seem as though most of these pumps obtain**  **10 some sort of certification.**  **11 MR. POWERS: But I think the word**  **12 "certification" could -- in other words you're**  **13 exempting fire pumps.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.**  **15 MR. ADIN: So can I just make just**  **16 kind of a general point? Lucas Adin, DOE.**  **17 I think generally speaking we're**  **18 hoping to get some kind of consensus on**  **19 whether categorically we could determine**  **20 whether these things would be included or**  **21 excluded, understanding that at some point**  **22 down the road we may have to provide some more** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 clear language that identifies which, you**  **2 know, whether something is included or not.**  **3 And one of the concerns we get**  **4 into there is how easily could a product that**  **5 we otherwise intend to cover be modified to**  **6 become one of these things that's excluded?**  **7 We don't really know in most cases how likely**  **8 that is.**  **9 I mean, some of the information we**  **10 have is purely anecdotal. I mean, some of**  **11 these pumps obviously can be used in the same**  **12 applications in which you'd use a clean water**  **13 pump that's otherwise the same design. So**  **14 that's one thing that we do have to consider**  **15 as we decide, you know, what categorical**  **16 exclusions are we going to use.**  **17 MR. POWERS: And I agree. This is**  **18 Chuck Powers again. But in my opinion the**  **19 savings that we all want to go after and**  **20 benefit is by definition 24/7 stuff, right?**  **21 It's running all the time, you know, the**  **22 intermittent and all.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Some of these fire pumps will run**  **2 because of requirements one hour a month and**  **3 that's it. Just for testing to make sure it's**  **4 working. Offshore platforms all the way down**  **5 to refineries to a building like this,**  **6 whatever, right?**  **7 And if it's going to run for 15-20**  **8 minutes, sometimes they pressure up based on**  **9 the fire codes and all that, it's not running**  **10 -- they're just, it's a specific niche**  **11 purpose. And guess what? When they do need**  **12 it to run they're not worrying about**  **13 efficiency. So, my opinion. It's something**  **14 you all will decide.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it clear, would**  **16 it be easily defined what fire pumps are?**  **17 MR. POWERS: Yes.**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams.**  **19 Without using a certification, you can provide**  **20 a definition of fire pump that does not**  **21 overlap with the other covered pumps?**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so we'll get** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 there at some point, I imagine. Let me hear**  **2 from Steve, then I'm coming back to you,**  **3 Chuck. Steve Rosenstock.**  **4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just in the other**  **5 rulemaking on motors there was the definition**  **6 of fire pump motor. And as specific**  **7 efficiency, you know, requirements. So the**  **8 motors are defined anyway. I'm sure you can**  **9 define fire pumps using some of that language.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: So Chuck, you were**  **11 doing well. Do you have any additional**  **12 thoughts on exclusions? Clarifications I**  **13 guess they would be mostly. So, additional**  **14 thoughts on these?**  **15 Do you generally think this is a**  **16 good list? Should there be other items**  **17 included on this list? Should some of these**  **18 be struck because they have the potential to**  **19 save the nation a lot of energy? They're in**  **20 broad use, distribution, that sort of thing.**  **21 Louis?**  **22 MR. STARR: Just one last comment** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 on the fire pumps. If you notice I think all**  **2 those others do have some kind of**  **3 certification.**  **4 So I'm wondering also if it may be**  **5 a certification or meeting requirements in**  **6 NFPA 101, something like that, that would get**  **7 it covered.**  **8 Because really it seems like some**  **9 of your inline pumps, I could just call it a**  **10 fire pump.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't get that,**  **12 Louis. I'm sorry, I missed that. Say it**  **13 again.**  **14 MR. STARR: There's NFPA**  **15 requirements for fire pumps. And it's kind of**  **16 like a code. So the requirement is that you**  **17 could be self-certifying or meet the**  **18 requirements of that. And one way or another**  **19 you would meet is so that you wouldn't have to**  **20 be.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, got it. Al**  **22 Huber.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HUBER: So that everybody**  **2 understands what we're talking about here, all**  **3 fire pumps are sold in this country to meet**  **4 NFPA 20. All of them.**  **5 The certification comes from UL**  **6 and FM, one or the other. Those are the only**  **7 certifying bodies that I'm aware of at this**  **8 point. And they certify that you meet,**  **9 actually meet NFPA 20. That's their purpose.**  **10 So to clarify that so everybody understands**  **11 what that means.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. That's**  **13 good. Joanna.**  **14 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just**  **15 want to make sure I understand. So all fire**  **16 pumps are sold certified as meeting NFPA 20?**  **17 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber,**  **18 Patterson Pump. No, they're not. There are**  **19 some occasions where some customers don't**  **20 require UL or FM certification. But they will**  **21 put in their specifications that it has to**  **22 meet NFPA 20. Twenty is the guide.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. POWERS: And I think to help**  **2 certifying that API does not have a label**  **3 certified. It has a specification.**  **4 MR. HUBER: No, it has a**  **5 specification.**  **6 MR. POWERS: NFPA 20 is a**  **7 specification. So it's a clarification.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, that was**  **9 Chuck. Thank you, Chuck. Back to Meg.**  **10 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner with**  **11 NRDC. So based on that comment it sounds like**  **12 Louis' suggestion might work of either**  **13 certified NFPA 20 or meeting the requirements**  **14 of NFPA 20, or something worded --**  **15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **16 If you say certified then it will have to be**  **17 UL listed or FM approved. If you say "has to**  **18 meet" then you can say NFPA 20.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. Okay,**  **20 thank you. Gary Fernstrom.**  **21 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,**  **22 California IOUs. So, Al, I'm okay with** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 excluding fire pumps. We just want to make**  **2 sure that there being no reason, principally**  **3 lower price, for somebody to buy a fire pump**  **4 and use it for some other purpose.**  **5 And I'd like to establish that you**  **6 industry folks are confident that people**  **7 aren't going to be buying fire pumps in order**  **8 to avoid perhaps a slightly higher cost of a**  **9 pump that does meet the regulations.**  **10 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. You want me**  **11 to answer?**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Al. Al**  **13 Huber.**  **14 MR. HUBER: Okay. It won't be**  **15 less expensive. UL/FM pumps are very**  **16 expensive because you have to do a lot of**  **17 testing, a lot of certification work, and you**  **18 have to maintain those confrontations. So if**  **19 you have those listings and you do those**  **20 things then you do not, you know, generally it**  **21 would not be used in municipal service.**  **22 The other thing is that --** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Pause just for a**  **2 second. I want to note for the record that**  **3 four or five manufacturers in the room are**  **4 nodding their heads in agreement with you.**  **5 Now, proceed.**  **6 MR. HUBER: So, now I've got to**  **7 get back on.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm sorry to**  **9 interrupt. I thought that was important.**  **10 MR. HUBER: Three hours sleep, I'm**  **11 a little slow. But well, there's a lot of**  **12 cost involved with those.**  **13 But also they're not as efficient**  **14 by design. They're not meant to be. They**  **15 have to -- because if you visualize a curve,**  **16 BEP let's call it in the middle, we will set**  **17 the parameter for the design condition, say**  **18 500 gpm to the left because the pump has to --**  **19 by NFPA 20 has to be able to pump at 150**  **20 percent of whatever that rating is.**  **21 So you set it to the left which is**  **22 away from efficiency and you have to certify** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 it on both of these points. And neither one**  **2 of them have anything to do with efficiency.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: And let me return**  **4 to Gary.**  **5 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary,**  **6 California IOUs. Thanks, Al. You've assured**  **7 us that there's no reason to expect there**  **8 might be a loophole here. Thank you.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Either Joanna or**  **10 Meg, one of the two of you. Meg.**  **11 MS. WALTNER: Well, I was just**  **12 going to follow up and ask. So you said those**  **13 costs were associated with certification or**  **14 associated with meeting NFPA 20?**  **15 MR. HUBER: Associated with**  **16 certification.**  **17 MS. WALTNER: So, theoretically a**  **18 pump can meet NFPA 20 without those additional**  **19 costs.**  **20 MR. HUBER: That is correct.**  **21 MS. WALTNER: And then would be**  **22 potentially a substitute for an inline pump.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HUBER: That is correct.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to clarify,**  **3 does anybody object to "fire pumps (meet NFPA**  **4 20)." Is that descriptive and does that work**  **5 for everyone? Yes, I see a few heads saying**  **6 yes. Steve Rosenstock.**  **7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just to also**  **8 support the exclusion. In DOE's rulemaking**  **9 which included fire pump motors when they**  **10 looked at increasing the efficiency of the**  **11 fire pump motor they looked at two efficiency**  **12 levels. And the paybacks ranged using**  **13 national average values rates of about 3,000**  **14 to 11,000 years. So, yes.**  **15 (Laughter)**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: I can't believe you**  **17 remembered that. That is so arcane. Gary.**  **18 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary,**  **19 California IOUs. So, I think we're at a point**  **20 where there's still some confusion here.**  **21 Meeting the 20 certification does**  **22 not incur additional costs necessarily, but** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the certification does. So, if we want to be**  **2 really sure that we've not created a loophole**  **3 we need to hook our regulation exemption into**  **4 the certification. Going back to Meg's point.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, go ahead.**  **6 MR. POWERS: I don't agree with**  **7 that. In simple terms the manufacturer is**  **8 bound by a lot of regulations when it comes to**  **9 fire pumps. One of them is called the legal**  **10 side. So, what goes into the design in a lot**  **11 of cases is a heavier, more robust, because**  **12 again, it has to run. It cannot not run,**  **13 right? Whether it's an offshore platform**  **14 that's going to melt down or something else,**  **15 these units have to run, or a building like**  **16 this.**  **17 Again, what I think is important**  **18 is, and it got back to what Steve brought up,**  **19 is you'll find a redundancy in these units**  **20 where you'll have an electric motor and then**  **21 the rest of them are engine drives, right?**  **22 Because they don't want to rely on the power** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 of the building if it goes down, or the site.**  **2 They need to have other backup systems and**  **3 such.**  **4 So then you're getting away from**  **5 the efficiency factor of the motor, right? So**  **6 I mean, you know.**  **7 And so again I think the statement**  **8 wants to be fire pumps.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **10 MR. ADIN: I mean, that's getting**  **11 in part to the physical characteristics of the**  **12 pump too. I mean, there are elements that we**  **13 could identify that are characteristic of a**  **14 fire pump that would make them just**  **15 impractical for someone who just wants a clean**  **16 water pump to opt for that kind of pump in**  **17 place of whatever they would otherwise use**  **18 that we're trying to cover.**  **19 I mean, I think that's part of**  **20 what we're dealing with. It's not just cost**  **21 or certification or whatever it is.**  **22 You know, what's inherently** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 different about these things that makes them**  **2 impractical for that kind of substitution.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? No?**  **4 MR. HUBER: Well, yes. You can**  **5 have a pump that may meet NFPA 20, and you may**  **6 be using it for something else. It may just**  **7 be one of those flukes that happens to hit it.**  **8 Sometimes it does. Not often, but sometimes**  **9 it does.**  **10 There are a lot of parameters**  **11 written in NFPA 20 that give you things that**  **12 you do have to do. You have to be able to**  **13 lift 15 feet at 150 percent. You know,**  **14 there's a lot of things you have to be able to**  **15 do. They're all defined there, very well**  **16 defined.**  **17 But what's -- it is very**  **18 prohibitive to be competitive in, say, the**  **19 municipal market or industrial market with a**  **20 fire pump because it's just not -- it's not**  **21 economically feasible, quite frankly.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **2 Cappellino, ITT. Could we simply say "fire**  **3 pumps - pumps sold for firefighting**  **4 application?"**  **5 MR. HUBER: Well, that could be --**  **6 yes, I suppose. That could be any pump.**  **7 MR. CAPPELLINO: We kind of infer**  **8 that in the first line. You know, solids**  **9 handling, wastewater. Those are kind of**  **10 applications.**  **11 MR. HUBER: Application-specific,**  **12 yes.**  **13 MR. CAPPELLINO: So you could --**  **14 MR. HUBER: -- firefighting or**  **15 fire service.**  **16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Fire service,**  **17 right. I mean, it's a safety, reliability --**  **18 MR. HUBER: You could say that.**  **19 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- related issue.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **21 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. I**  **22 think we actually need to be a little more** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 specific on that.**  **2 DOE has trouble with definitions**  **3 that, you know, like you can just say your**  **4 pump is designed for firefighting**  **5 applications.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Are we trying to do**  **7 that now?**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, no. So, one**  **9 of the things, if we wanted to we could**  **10 generally agree that we want to exclude these**  **11 and then work on the definitions later, maybe**  **12 in some other setting. So there's options**  **13 here.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's where I**  **15 thought we were. I thought we basically want**  **16 to look at this list and see if we generally**  **17 think that these are, one, descriptive, and**  **18 two, categorically wish to be excluded. And**  **19 that's where we are right now.**  **20 So I'm casting my eyes around the**  **21 room. Do we think these are generally**  **22 descriptive? Yes. And do we want to exclude** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 these to the best of our thinking at this**  **2 moment? Yes? Okay, so we're moving on.**  **3 Lucas.**  **4 MR. ADIN: Briefly, before we move**  **5 on, I just wanted to broaden the loophole**  **6 question a little bit more and to make sure we**  **7 don't have a similar perspective issue with**  **8 any of these other items on the list.**  **9 I don't know how likely that is to**  **10 happen compared with fire pumps. Fire pumps**  **11 seem to be relatively well classified but I**  **12 mean, any of these others, ASME chemical**  **13 pumps, for example. I mean, is there any**  **14 possible for substitution or modification of**  **15 otherwise covered pumps into that category,**  **16 that kind of thing?**  **17 MR. HUBER: It's not likely.**  **18 Again, it's a matter of cost.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **20 MR. HUBER: I'm sorry.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no, I need to**  **22 keep doing this because we want the record to** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 be pristine.**  **2 MR. HUBER: Right. It's a matter**  **3 of cost.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: I feel like I'm**  **5 being rude but I've got to do it.**  **6 MR. HUBER: That's okay. It's**  **7 just a matter of cost. It's just not**  **8 competitive in the marketplace.**  **9 So nobody is -- I'm not going to**  **10 say nobody would ever do it. There are people**  **11 that do silly things every day, okay? But**  **12 nobody practically would buy an API 610 pump,**  **13 or an ASME chemical pump to pump water because**  **14 it's just not practical. And it's going to**  **15 cost them too much so they would never do**  **16 that.**  **17 They would never buy a**  **18 self-priming pump to pump -- sometimes they do**  **19 if they have a particular application of clean**  **20 water where they have to lift the water way**  **21 high, but efficiency is out the window at that**  **22 point anyway.** 

### Page 136

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 So really there's no particular --**  **2 and nobody's going to use wastewater pumps**  **3 because they're designed to pump wastewater.**  **4 So they're not going to be using those to pump**  **5 clean water. So if clean water ends up being**  **6 where we're headed these things being excluded**  **7 is not a problem.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. Doug**  **9 Potts.**  **10 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American**  **11 Water. Yes, as a purchaser, an end user of**  **12 pumps I definitely agree. I mean we wouldn't**  **13 buy an API pump. I'm sure that's a more**  **14 expensive pump and wouldn't meet our needs.**  **15 We wouldn't buy a chemical pump to**  **16 pump water. Those are usually positive**  **17 displacement pumps anyhow. Although I guess**  **18 there are centrifugal but it wouldn't meet our**  **19 needs. So I agree with what you're saying.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.**  **21 MR. STARR: The only thing I was**  **22 thinking is you might need to define what** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 clean water is. I think the Europeans had**  **2 some definition of that.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Well, I think**  **4 we're going to have to double back on fluids**  **5 and clean water. Meg and then to Steve.**  **6 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. I**  **7 think the one category that could use further**  **8 definition beyond what we've just discussed is**  **9 wastewater sump, slurry and solid handling**  **10 pumps. I mean we agreed conceptually that we**  **11 want to exclude those, but exactly what**  **12 defines those pumps rather than just the**  **13 application to the extent we can.**  **14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson**  **15 Pump. I think what we said in our discussions**  **16 with you guys is that it's something that's**  **17 pumping solids.**  **18 And clean water was defined as**  **19 clean, clear water and gray water which is**  **20 treated water but it doesn't have solids in**  **21 it, or to any great degree. So I mean, it's**  **22 more or less a solids handling type pump that** 

### Page 138

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 we had in mind.**  **2 MS. WALTNER: I guess my question**  **3 is are there characteristics of the pump**  **4 itself we can define that --**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think we're**  **6 going to do all those definitions at this**  **7 point.**  **8 MS. WALTNER: We don't need to --**  **9 MR. HUBER: Yes, no, I don't think**  **10 so. Because we talk about eye areas and sizes**  **11 and those kind of things. But we talk about**  **12 that also in clean water pumps too. So I**  **13 mean, I think it would be different.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve is next and**  **15 then to you, Greg.**  **16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a thought.**  **17 Maybe it's getting a little too much in the**  **18 weeds but I'm thinking of some, I'll say some**  **19 residential solar systems that have water with**  **20 glycol in it for freeze protection.**  **21 Solar thermal systems sometimes**  **22 have that in the north and there might be** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 other -- is that -- would that be considered**  **2 a chemical pump, or is that considered -- what**  **3 kind of pump would that be?**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.**  **5 MR. BARBOUR: I would say at least**  **6 from what we see for applications that would**  **7 be the same as clean water.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.**  **9 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **10 Grundfos. I think to answer Meg's question**  **11 and really as we've discussed about**  **12 definitions I think there are some existing**  **13 work out there.**  **14 The original recommendation from**  **15 HI was to focus on harmonizing with what has**  **16 occurred in the EU already with their Lot 11**  **17 and their clean water pumps.**  **18 And as we move forward in**  **19 definitions they've done some other work on**  **20 trying to categorize and describe and define**  **21 wastewater slurry solids handling pumps. And**  **22 they have found issues and problems in trying** 

### Page 140

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to cover that as well too.**  **2 So, again, not to start working on**  **3 definitions that -- I think there are some**  **4 existing documents and work that's already**  **5 been done that will help define that better.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. That's**  **7 helpful. Good, good. We've made good**  **8 progress on these.**  **9 Any final comments on exclusions?**  **10 Because I think we should go to lunch. What**  **11 do you think? Additional, final comments?**  **12 And if we need to talk about it more we can**  **13 resume here where we left off. But maybe**  **14 we'll move onto the next slide. Bob Barbour.**  **15 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with**  **16 TACO. I just want to make sure that we're**  **17 talking about these exclusions, that we're**  **18 probably going to be adding more to it from**  **19 some of the other product categories as we go**  **20 forward.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **22 MR. BARBOUR: This is not just the** 

### Page 141

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 scope of exclusions.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: This is a**  **3 preliminary list. To me these would be**  **4 perhaps the obvious ones, right?**  **5 MR. BARBOUR: Okay.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.**  **7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **8 Cappellino, ITT. So could we simply add the**  **9 words "but not limited to" in the text there?**  **10 To address Bob's --**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's a**  **12 good placeholder.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: In which text?**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I consulted**  **15 with Emily. She said that the definitions,**  **16 the two pages of possible definitions and the**  **17 general description of pump components, that**  **18 that's been sent to each of you via email so**  **19 you can take a peek at those over lunch.**  **20 Also, if you have specific**  **21 preemption questions that you want to put to**  **22 the General Counsel's Office try to -- if you** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 could write them down before you go to lunch**  **2 and we can hand those off and see if by the**  **3 end of the day maybe we can get some progress**  **4 on that, or maybe it will take longer. But**  **5 let's see if we can get this information flow**  **6 going here.**  **7 So it's now 12:30. We've made**  **8 good progress already this morning. Let's**  **9 take an hour for lunch which means we'll**  **10 resume at 1:30.**  **11 Once again, those of you joining**  **12 us via the Web, thank you for joining us.**  **13 Hope this has been productive.**  **14 A reminder, you must wear this**  **15 badge visible. This room will be locked or it**  **16 will be attended so you can leave your stuff.**  **17 You might need an ID to get back through the**  **18 security portal at the big cafeteria 100 yards**  **19 that way. A few of you don't know the ropes**  **20 here. I don't recognize a few of you, so**  **21 follow the crowd.**  **22 There's also a Subway shop with a** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Dunkin' Donuts almost directly beneath us on**  **2 the ground floor. Go the ground floor, 100**  **3 yards in that direction, up two flights of**  **4 stairs, that's the cafeteria. We'll see you**  **5 back here at 1:30.**  **6 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter**  **7 went off the record at 12:32 p.m. and went**  **8 back on the record at 1:41 p.m.)**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: When we left for**  **10 lunch we were finishing up on exclusions,**  **11 slide number 6. Any additional thoughts on**  **12 slide 6 before we move to slide 7?**  **13 And I know that you all had a**  **14 chance to review those edits to the**  **15 definitions over lunch so we'll return to**  **16 that. Let's go to slide 7, scope discussion**  **17 parameters.**  **18 And this, what you see in the**  **19 shaded box here is the bulk of the HI proposal**  **20 if I'm not mistaken. Greg Case.**  **21 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. Before**  **22 we leave slide 6 we'd also like to exclude** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 positive displacement pumps.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: What are those? I**  **3 noticed that there, for example, and the**  **4 colorful slide above in your packet --**  **5 MR. CASE: Yes.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: -- positive**  **7 displacement are included as a possible no in**  **8 this prospective possible scope. So positive**  **9 displacement you'd like to add.**  **10 MR. CASE: Correct.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Is there a**  **12 rationale? Mark.**  **13 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem.**  **14 It's a non-water pump typically. And it's**  **15 also not a centrifugal pump. So they just**  **16 don't fit the classifications that we're**  **17 talking about.**  **18 MR. POWERS: It can be a piston.**  **19 MR. HANDZEL: It's typically a**  **20 piston.**  **21 MR. POWERS: It can be a**  **22 progressive cavity.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck. Piston,**  **2 gravity.**  **3 MR. HUBER: It's usually very**  **4 viscous liquids.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, say it again.**  **6 MR. HUBER: Sorry. Al Huber,**  **7 Patterson. It's for viscous liquids.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Explain viscous.**  **9 MR. HUBER: Come on.**  **10 (Laughter)**  **11 MR. HUBER: These guys are bright.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, viscous.**  **13 MR. HUBER: So that's what they're**  **14 designed for. They're really not designed for**  **15 what we're anticipating having a rulemaking**  **16 on. So I don't see why we wouldn't go ahead**  **17 and exclude those up front.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: The energy**  **19 efficiency coalition caucus would be**  **20 interested if there are a whole lot of them in**  **21 production and out there in use that they'd**  **22 want to know that.** 

### Page 146

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HUBER: I don't think there**  **2 are.**  **3 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg Waltner.**  **4 I think this is consistent with our discussion**  **5 before.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **7 MR. HUBER: Yes, we were already**  **8 in agreement with the NGOs that this list that**  **9 we've so far put up there and including**  **10 positive displacement that we weren't going to**  **11 exclude those.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Gary**  **13 Fernstrom.**  **14 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **15 IOUs. I'd just like to make the observation**  **16 that there are some high-pressure clean water**  **17 piston pumps, probably not enough to worry**  **18 about.**  **19 But going back to these**  **20 parameters, I know that circulators are still**  **21 on the table and we're waiting to learn about**  **22 the market and the energy-saving potential.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 But many of them are below 1 horsepower. So**  **2 I want to make sure that this parameter**  **3 doesn't at this point preclude fractional**  **4 horsepower circulators until we make a**  **5 decision on them.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **7 Doug? Oh, Steve Rosenstock.**  **8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **9 EEI. Again, to kind of follow up. Where it**  **10 said the parameters about one to two hundred**  **11 horsepower hydraulic power at the BEP, is that**  **12 separate from if there's the motor horsepower**  **13 rating? I'm just kind of curious how -- what**  **14 the relationship.**  **15 If we have a 1 horsepower which is**  **16 a hydraulic-powered BEP what would be the**  **17 typical size of a motor that's driving that 1**  **18 horsepower at BEP?**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I saw both**  **20 Chuck and Al. Either one of you. Al.**  **21 MR. HUBER: Originally that is not**  **22 part of the HI proposal. We never put that in** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 there. We just said one to two hundred**  **2 horsepower.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, Alison**  **4 Williams, LBNL. It was in HI's framework**  **5 comments so we can change it. But just to be**  **6 clear, it was requested by HI at some point.**  **7 MR. HUBER: Was it? Okay.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: What does it mean?**  **9 Can you answer Steve's question?**  **10 MR. HUBER: What does it mean?**  **11 Well, it means that that is the horsepower**  **12 required by the pump at its best efficiency**  **13 point.**  **14 So, normally if you were offering**  **15 a pump you would be beyond that range and so**  **16 you would probably have a 250 horsepower pump,**  **17 or motor.**  **18 MR. POWERS: And in pump designs**  **19 there's a couple of terminologies used,**  **20 specific speed, suction specific speed, and a**  **21 lot of other factors, rise to shutoff.**  **22 And the bottom line is you can** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 have certain pumps that can have a higher**  **2 horsepower at shutoff than you could out on**  **3 the curve and vice versa.**  **4 So when it comes back to Steve's**  **5 question would you have a motor exactly 200**  **6 horsepower if that was the BEP point?**  **7 Probably not. Right?**  **8 And even in motor designs, even in**  **9 motor designs they have service factors and**  **10 all that. And if you say I'm buying a 100**  **11 horsepower motor chances are if you did a true**  **12 test on it and looked at losses and all it**  **13 might be 103 horsepower, but they rated it**  **14 100, right? And stuff like that.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, thank you.**  **16 That was helpful. That was good. Okay.**  **17 So, do you want to leave that**  **18 clause in there or try and remove it? We'll**  **19 leave it in says Mark? Okay? Okay.**  **20 MR. HANDZEL: Nodding heads again.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, okay. Trying**  **22 to capture this. Charlie Cappellino.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **2 Cappellino, ITT. On the temperature range the**  **3 wording that we've used in the past is the**  **4 word design, design temperature range. And**  **5 that helps us distinguish between what the**  **6 product is designed for versus the actual**  **7 application temperature.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I guess that**  **9 makes sense. Louis Starr.**  **10 MR. STARR: I was actually just**  **11 talking to Greg asking if that's the same as**  **12 it is in the European Union in terms of if**  **13 they use some kind of kilowatt. If they're**  **14 doing the same thing at hydraulic power at**  **15 BEP. It's just mainly just so that, you know.**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams.**  **17 They're not. Their definitions I'm pretty**  **18 sure specifically say shaft power.**  **19 MR. STARR: So that's the**  **20 difference. It's brake horsepower in the**  **21 European, so this one essentially would give**  **22 you a little more room.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: My understanding**  **2 was that HI wanted this because every -- it is**  **3 known for every pump. Like you can always**  **4 measure hydraulic power whereas if you're not**  **5 actually measuring the pump shaft power then**  **6 it's harder to classify. But apparently**  **7 they're -- I don't know what the reason is**  **8 now.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **10 MR. HUBER: Well, none of us --**  **11 excuse me, Al Huber, Patterson. None of us**  **12 recall.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: So I don't know. I**  **14 can't answer it for you.**  **15 (Laughter)**  **16 MR. HUBER: I've got to tell you**  **17 that I don't know that we have a problem**  **18 either way.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **20 MR. HUBER: However, you probably**  **21 reduce the number of pumps that you would have**  **22 in your field.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: With hydraulic?**  **2 MR. HUBER: Yes.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: Wouldn't you have a**  **4 larger number of pumps?**  **5 MR. HUBER: No, I don't think so.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's Alison.**  **7 Al, you say no.**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: If you have 200**  **9 horsepower shaft power -- thank you.**  **10 MR. HUBER: Well, no, shaft power**  **11 you would have more.**  **12 MS. WILLIAMS: No. If you have**  **13 200 horsepower shaft power then your hydraulic**  **14 power would be lower, correct?**  **15 MR. HUBER: Correct.**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: So you would be**  **17 limiting the scope farther by using a shaft**  **18 input power limit than by using a hydraulic**  **19 power limit.**  **20 MR. HUBER: Yes, you're correct.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Al.**  **22 Okay.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. POWERS: I think we ought to**  **2 protect ourselves from making decisions within**  **3 the first 5 minutes after lunch.**  **4 (Laughter)**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Chuck.**  **6 Let me once again try and get you to start**  **7 saying your names again here. I like the free**  **8 flow of it. We want to have a good record.**  **9 Doug, you want in here?**  **10 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American**  **11 Water. Just a question or clarification. Is**  **12 not hydraulic horsepower the same as water**  **13 horsepower and therefore efficiency is not**  **14 even part of that measurement?**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.**  **16 MR. POTTS: So really this should**  **17 say shaft horsepower or brake horsepower?**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, it depends on**  **19 what -- sorry, Alison Williams. It depends on**  **20 what scope you want to go after, right? I**  **21 mean, it's just limiting your segment and the**  **22 hydraulic power is the broadest. Shaft input** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 power is next, and motor horsepower would be**  **2 the most limiting I would think.**  **3 MR. POTTS: Fair enough.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.**  **5 MR. STARR: So I think I'd be in**  **6 favor of trying to harmonize the European**  **7 standard and the U.S. so that you don't have**  **8 pumps filtering from one area to the next and**  **9 for manufacturers to manufacture the same**  **10 thing in both markets.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just float**  **12 this. We talked about this in the first**  **13 meeting in December.**  **14 Clearly HI's proposal tries to**  **15 harmonize with the European Lot 11. Is that**  **16 also an objective of other members of the**  **17 working group?**  **18 Yes? I see some industry members**  **19 nodding their heads. Anybody that doesn't**  **20 think that's a good idea? That doesn't mean**  **21 that we couldn't exceed it. But just as a**  **22 global statement, as kind of a general concept** 

### Page 155

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 I thought it would be useful to see if anybody**  **2 doesn't seem to think that harmonizing with**  **3 the EU and what they've done makes sense.**  **4 I'm seeing no objections to that.**  **5 Just as a notation. Okay. Greg Case. Oh,**  **6 Gary Fernstrom.**  **7 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **8 IOUs.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: -- extended**  **10 statement there, right?**  **11 MR. FERNSTROM: I did.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **13 MR. FERNSTROM: If we wind up**  **14 including circulators there has been some**  **15 concern expressed by industry and TACO that**  **16 maybe the European approach to how their**  **17 performance is valued isn't appropriate here.**  **18 So, harmonization may not be appropriate in**  **19 that case.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Great, great.**  **21 Okay. Greg. Pardon me, our TACO**  **22 representative, Bob, wants to follow on. Bob** 

### Page 156

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Barbour.**  **2 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from**  **3 TACO. I just wanted to thank you for**  **4 remembering our statements from the last**  **5 meeting.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Now Greg Case.**  **7 MR. CASE: We're looking through**  **8 our May 2 letter back and we see one to two**  **9 hundred horsepower, not hydraulic horsepower**  **10 in there. So we'll have to do some further**  **11 research, but I think we meant one to two**  **12 hundred shaft horsepower, the motor that would**  **13 be attached to this load.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Just for the record**  **15 my money's on Alison's memory.**  **16 (Laughter)**  **17 MR. CASE: We're looking through a**  **18 document, so.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, other**  **20 comments on these parameters. We haven't had**  **21 any comment yet on 2 and 4 pole only, or 6**  **22 inch and smaller bowl diameter. Steve** 

### Page 157

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Rosenstock.**  **2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Two and four pole**  **3 motor, right, we're talking about?**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry, pumps**  **5 designed for running at 2 or 4 pole motors.**  **6 Yes.**  **7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. And my**  **8 other question is are there any restrictions**  **9 on -- these look like the one to two hundred**  **10 horsepower is kind of for the electric**  **11 drivers.**  **12 What if we have a non-electric**  **13 driver? What kind of -- is there any sort of**  **14 energy input parameter? Or is it anything?**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams.**  **16 We have not had any proposals on that subject.**  **17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because under the**  **18 definition it could be -- we could have**  **19 non-electric drivers obviously. So as far as**  **20 I'm concerned, hey, if you want any size, fine**  **21 with me. But I'm just saying.**  **22 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, so this** 

### Page 158

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 scope, right, is for the scope of the**  **2 rulemaking today. And I guess it hasn't**  **3 necessarily been decided yet whether or not**  **4 engines would be included in this rulemaking.**  **5 6**  **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. But where 7**  **we did kind of the definitions before a driver 8**  **could be anything, electric or non-electric. 9**  **MS. WILLIAMS: Correct, but that 10**  **is the broader definition for a covered 11**  **product. In this discussion it should be 12**  **about the standards that you are working to 13**  **set in this committee. So, I mean maybe 14**  **that's another issue that should be crossed 15**  **down the road. 16**  **MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 17**  **MR. HUBER: On the question 2 and 18**  **4 pole, we noticed that in the most recent 19**  **survey that was sent out, I guess it's dated 20**  **the 23rd which asked for the responses by the 21**  **22nd which we found a little unusual. But you 22**  **asked for 1,200 rpm.**

### Page 159

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Alison**  **2 Williams. We included an extra space because**  **3 we do not know if everyone agrees to 2 and 4**  **4 pole or not. So we thought it would be**  **5 prudent to ask for an expanded scope in case**  **6 someone wants to consider that.**  **7 MR. HUBER: Well, why don't we**  **8 find that out now before --**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: That's a good idea.**  **10 MR. HUBER: Because this is very**  **11 -- and I might as well, this is probably a**  **12 good time to tell you this. You'll probably**  **13 not get these surveys back for another 3 or 4**  **14 weeks. Because most of us, it takes a lot of**  **15 time to pull all this data in.**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: We have some of**  **17 them. But thank you.**  **18 MR. HUBER: Some of us are not**  **19 able to do it that quickly.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: But Al, thanks for**  **21 that. So, do we need to confirm? I guess we**  **22 just received a request to confirm 2 and 4** 

### Page 160

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 pole motors only. Charlie Cappellino.**  **2 MR. CAPPELLINO: I looked up the**  **3 EU regulation and it's shaft horsepower. So**  **4 I didn't know if that was still an open**  **5 question or not. Shaft power, excuse me.**  **6 Shaft power. Not hydraulic power.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And Alison,**  **8 earlier I believe she said hydraulic would be**  **9 a broader, more encompassing term. Is shaft**  **10 the way you'd like to have this descriptor?**  **11 A few of you are nodding yes. Any objections**  **12 to shaft as the descriptor? Steve Rosenstock.**  **13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Not an objection,**  **14 just an adder. Or non-electric equivalent.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, any**  **16 objection to that?**  **17 MR. POWERS: Yes, I have a**  **18 question.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Chuck.**  **20 MR. POWERS: Back to what Steve**  **21 just said. This is pump parameters, correct?**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: You've got to speak** 

### Page 161

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 louder, Chuck.**  **2 MR. POWERS: This is pump**  **3 parameters.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **5 MR. POWERS: Doesn't really matter**  **6 what the driver is.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: That's true.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: That's correct.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, it is.**  **11 MR. POWERS: This is pump. So**  **12 it's the power of the pump, and the driver of**  **13 the pump, and the speed of the pump. Drivers**  **14 could be after that anything.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **17 IOUs. So, we're reaching out to specify 2 and**  **18 4 pole only. Maybe some of the motor experts**  **19 in the room can share whether or not that**  **20 would accommodate PM/ECM motors of all types**  **21 that might be in that niche that we want to**  **22 look at as an extended product or whatever we** 

### Page 162

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 choose to call it.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.**  **3 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal**  **4 Beloit. I think with our PM motors we're not**  **5 limited by 2 and 4 pole speed -- motor would**  **6 be. So if you're asking about whether or not**  **7 the 2 and 4 pole would cover PM I wouldn't say**  **8 that our PMs would be outside of the 2 and 4.**  **9 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, my point is**  **10 I am speculating that PM/ECM motors may not be**  **11 of what you would classically call 2 or 4 pole**  **12 design. So, I don't know that we want to say**  **13 2 and 4 pole only because that would preclude**  **14 our inclusion of that type of motor.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, go ahead.**  **16 MR. STARR: So, perhaps 2 and 4**  **17 pole of an induction motor. And then that**  **18 would leave the other parameter open.**  **19 MR. FERNSTROM: Good suggestion**  **20 and resolution. How about we say 2 and 4**  **21 pole.**  **22 MS. WILLIAMS: So, sorry, Alison** 

### Page 163

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Williams. I mean, my question would be should**  **2 it really be pumps designed for 3,600 to 1,800**  **3 rpm or something like that. Because if you're**  **4 talking about induction only you might be --**  **5 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **6 IOUs. If we say induction only that could**  **7 further limit it.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **9 MR. HUBER: This is -- using 1,800**  **10 and 3,600 for the normal water pump is good.**  **11 I mean, that's fine and that's what we were**  **12 anticipating.**  **13 If you get into circulators the**  **14 PCM motors are all over the map. I mean, it**  **15 could be rated at 2,900. It could be rated at**  **16 3,200. It could be rated at all kind of**  **17 things.**  **18 Which is one reason the HI always**  **19 felt that circulators should be considered as**  **20 a separate rulemaking. Because there's a lot**  **21 of things that apply to it that don't apply to**  **22 regular water pumps.** 

### Page 164

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: It seemed like 2**  **2 and 4 pole only -- motors only was close but**  **3 then there were these exceptions. Can that be**  **4 expanded to -- in a way that we get clarity?**  **5 Mark?**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem.**  **7 I mean, the way that this was written**  **8 obviously for the bigger water pumps we're**  **9 using a base motor that has a max rated speed**  **10 in that range of 1,800 or 3,600.**  **11 And obviously if there's a**  **12 variable speed drive installed as the**  **13 controls, you know, those are going to operate**  **14 even less than those speeds. But it's really**  **15 the base motor speed that dictates it.**  **16 So Alison's doing some typing up**  **17 there, pumps designed for max speeds. And**  **18 we've just got to clarify it that way, that**  **19 that's the max speed and not the speed it's**  **20 always going to operate at.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Say that again, Al?**  **22 MR. HUBER: Base.** 

### Page 165

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **2 IOUs. I think if we specify the speed and not**  **3 the motor design we've solved a problem.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Meg.**  **5 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, NRDC.**  **6 Al, you made the point that those parameters**  **7 wouldn't apply to circulators. I wonder if as**  **8 we're discussing these parameters if this is**  **9 specifically for Lot 11 pumps and then we can**  **10 have the circulator parameter discussion**  **11 separately. Rather than trying to tweak these**  **12 now depending on what we do with circulators.**  **13 Is that -- we're on the same page?**  **14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Al. Thank**  **16 you, Al.**  **17 MR. HUBER: Yes, that's what we're**  **18 saying.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: The answer is yes.**  **20 So these parameters fit with the HI proposal.**  **21 That's what you just said, right? Did I hear**  **22 you correctly?** 

### Page 166

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WALTNER: So I said these**  **2 parameters should be for Lot 11 pumps which is**  **3 the HI proposal, yes.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, thank**  **5 you. Now to Bob Barbour.**  **6 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with**  **7 TACO. I would tend to agree with Meg's**  **8 statement because obviously we still feel that**  **9 the circulator should be treated as a separate**  **10 rulemaking as I've said numerous times before.**  **11 Just because of the complexities involved that**  **12 we have with circulators that are outside of**  **13 what we're looking at with these commercial**  **14 industrial pumps. And I agree that we should**  **15 try to make it a separate discussion if we**  **16 can.**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams.**  **18 That was the intent of this slide was to focus**  **19 on Lot 11. So I think it would be great if we**  **20 could do that.**  **21 And I just wanted to follow up on**  **22 the shaft power just to make sure you guys are** 

### Page 167

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 okay with it. In your May 2 response it says:**  **2 "since hydraulic power is a value that can be**  **3 determined for all pumps it might be a better**  **4 selection than shaft power. Consider a close**  **5 coupled and suction pump. There is no way to**  **6 measure the shaft power but hydraulic power**  **7 can be measured. The same would be true for**  **8 pumps driven directly in engine shaft or by a**  **9 hydraulic motor."**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel said**  **11 somebody smart wrote that, for the record.**  **12 (Laughter)**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Page 25.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: You're welcome to**  **15 change it, obviously. I just want to --**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Alison.**  **17 Now, Paul, hang on a second and let Al respond**  **18 to that. I'm coming back to you. Al Huber.**  **19 MR. HUBER: Well, I'm back to the**  **20 speed. I think --**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: You're back in**  **22 speed?** 

### Page 168

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HUBER: Yes, so that we don't**  **2 -- we don't want to make a mistake. Actually,**  **3 the pumps don't run at 1,800 and 3,600.**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, nominal.**  **5 MR. HUBER: So, we've got to say**  **6 nominal.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Nominal base.**  **8 MR. HUBER: The easiest way to do**  **9 it is to say 2 pole, 4 pole, nominal.**  **10 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers from**  **11 Flowserve. The reason is, I was mentioning**  **12 this to Al, is if you say nominal, you say 2**  **13 and 4. Two and four will be 1,800 and 3,600,**  **14 right? So that covers that.**  **15 The second thing is based on the**  **16 pumps that we include in this lot, like**  **17 submersibles or others, right, they're not**  **18 going to run. I mean, they have even a much**  **19 slower speed. They're still 2 and 4 pole but**  **20 it's just based on the nominal speed of that**  **21 design.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Paul, do you** 

### Page 169

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 want to follow on? Paul Lin.**  **2 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal**  **3 Beloit. I was just going to highlight that**  **4 same point is that on an induction motor**  **5 because of slip we don't run at 1,800 rpm.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, what have we**  **7 got.**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, is nominal okay**  **9 with the rpms? Because if you go back to**  **10 poles are you still running into the concern**  **11 about the induction motor? Like is this okay,**  **12 or no?**  **13 MR. POWERS: My opinion is if you**  **14 say pump design for nominal speed for 2 and 4**  **15 pole you're covered. You can't make any**  **16 mistakes.**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: But other people**  **18 have concerns about that limiting it to**  **19 induction motors.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, follow on and**  **21 then I'm going to Gary.**  **22 MR. HUBER: I want to be clear** 

### Page 170

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 here. We're not doing this to try to**  **2 eliminate circulators, all right? Because we**  **3 believe that it just needs to be done**  **4 separately, that's all. Because things don't**  **5 apply there that apply here and vice versa.**  **6 It would be much easier and simpler to write**  **7 it that way.**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. I**  **9 just want to say ECMs can be used with pumps**  **10 other than circulators. So you don't**  **11 necessarily want to accidentally exclude**  **12 something.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, if you were**  **14 to -- so, how would it read if it were to**  **15 include circulators? Gary.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **17 IOUs. Let me go to Chuck's point. I think if**  **18 we say pumps designed for nominal 2 and 4 pole**  **19 speeds, that's fine. It doesn't specify 2 and**  **20 4 pole motors, it just references the speeds**  **21 associated with it.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.** 

### Page 171

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ADIN: Just a quick comment**  **2 just to clarify that even a little bit**  **3 farther, at least as far as I understand it.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **5 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE, sorry.**  **6 There is a specific nominal speed that is**  **7 associated with the operation of a 2 pole**  **8 induction motor. And so I think that's really**  **9 what we're trying to say.**  **10 It could be another type of motor,**  **11 it's just the speed that is understood to be**  **12 the nominal speed at which a 2 pole or 4 pole**  **13 induction motor runs.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So --**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: So, is this good?**  **16 Pumps designed for --**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison Williams.**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm sorry. Pumps**  **19 designed for nominal 2 and 4 pole speeds.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Everybody**  **21 comfortable with that? Yes?**  **22 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr** 

### Page 172

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 with NEEA. So, are we going to have a**  **2 follow-up discussion on circulators? I think**  **3 there was some -- I don't think Meg was**  **4 suggesting that we wait another 3 years for**  **5 circulator. I think she suggested we'd wait**  **6 another 30 minutes.**  **7 (Laughter)**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, go on, follow**  **9 on.**  **10 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. I was**  **11 just suggesting for this discussion we're**  **12 talking about Lot 11 pumps. I wasn't saying**  **13 that we shouldn't talk about circulators.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And then**  **15 circulators, we'll need to dive in however**  **16 deep we need to dive for circulators. Tom**  **17 Eckman.**  **18 MR. ECKMAN: Doug, it might be**  **19 helpful if we just -- it says up there for Lot**  **20 11 pumps. I think if we state clearly this is**  **21 for only Lot 11 pumps. And we can decide**  **22 whether there's another parameter list for** 

### Page 173

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 other things. But this pertains to the Lot 11**  **2 group only.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: This is starting to**  **4 be like my legislative experience. It's kind**  **5 of a dangerous --**  **6 MR. ECKMAN: But it does refresh**  **7 everybody's memory that we're not talking**  **8 about other things other than this.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good**  **10 clarification. Yes, Chuck.**  **11 MR. POWERS: A couple of points to**  **12 think about also. So, in my mind when I'm**  **13 looking at this list we need to remove, I**  **14 talked about before, the very last line that**  **15 says VT-S. We need to either put the HI**  **16 nomenclature or remove that altogether.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: What is VT-S?**  **18 MR. POWERS: That's I think the**  **19 DOE's definition.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Vertical turbine**  **21 submersible. It's a VS0.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: So, say why, Chuck.** 

### Page 174

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. POWERS: There's other places**  **2 that was defined. The way I read that, it is**  **3 6-inch and smaller. I believe it was**  **4 originally proposed to be 4 and 6 inch, not 6**  **5 inch and smaller.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob?**  **7 MR. POWERS: So in other words**  **8 that's a broad. I think my understanding was**  **9 it was 4 and 6 inch.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: So Chuck, Al's**  **11 comment is 4 or 6, is that correct? Four or**  **12 six would do it. Bob?**  **13 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from**  **14 TACO. I guess my question on that is aren't**  **15 there 3-inch pumps? I know some people do**  **16 offer 3-inch pumps.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, you're next.**  **18 MR. POWERS: Sorry, Chuck Powers**  **19 again. I'll try to recommend. In the**  **20 industry the down hole wells are nominal**  **21 diameter of 4 and 6 and you know, 8, 10, 12,**  **22 et cetera. Worldwide.** 

### Page 175

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 So, a 3-inch you could put into a**  **2 4-inch, but it was nominally said it was a**  **3 4-inch casing.**  **4 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from**  **5 TACO. Why wouldn't the 3-inch be included**  **6 with the -- if they're going to look at**  **7 circulators down to such low levels why**  **8 wouldn't a 3-inch pump be something they'd**  **9 want to consider?**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to resolve**  **11 this. So I'm trying to -- Bob asked a good**  **12 question I think. Is this some sort of a**  **13 classification that if the 4-inch accommodates**  **14 a 3? What's going on? Chuck.**  **15 MR. POWERS: Yes, sorry, again.**  **16 I'm just trying to clarify. I think the**  **17 original proposal said 4 and I thought it was**  **18 and, but or 6-inch. That's all I'm trying to**  **19 clarify. I'm not trying to get into all the**  **20 other stuff.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: And clarify that**  **22 that's consistent with Lot 11.** 

### Page 176

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. POWERS: Right.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: And that's the**  **3 reason for that. That's the reason for that.**  **4 MR. POWERS: And I think also what**  **5 was trying to say before, you're doing a good**  **6 job of it but you put nomenclature up there**  **7 that no one in the world understands. So, if**  **8 you put HI nomenclature, fine. But if you put**  **9 VT-S, you know, people won't understand.**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: I just added VS0.**  **11 I didn't have time to edit the whole deck**  **12 during the lunch. So hopefully you'll bear**  **13 with me on this.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so are we**  **15 going to make it HI, Alison?**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: I made it HI. It's**  **17 there.**  **18 MR. POWERS: You need to remove**  **19 the VT-S.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, it's still**  **21 relevant for us. Is it a burden for it to be**  **22 there for you?** 

### Page 177

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you add HI to**  **2 that cluster there?**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: Because for, you**  **4 know, a lot of our purposes we have things**  **5 classified as that. So if we could retain**  **6 that that would be helpful to us. And we will**  **7 maintain the crosswalk.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And at some**  **9 point when we're doing this crosswalk we need**  **10 to land on nomenclature that's going to be**  **11 stable.**  **12 MR. POWERS: Okay, I'll refer to**  **13 the European Union nomenclature and others.**  **14 They actually call it MSS and you're calling**  **15 it VT-S. But I guess what the European Union**  **16 does, they also call it VSO. So if you go to**  **17 put VSO both groups, both categories are the**  **18 same.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: What would you**  **20 recommend we do here, Chuck? Is HI**  **21 sufficient?**  **22 MR. POWERS: HI.** 

### Page 178

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary**  **2 Fernstrom. Nothing at this point? We're**  **3 doing well with the parameters here. Lucas.**  **4 MR. ADIN: I just want to ask a**  **5 brief clarifying question with respect to the**  **6 bowl diameter. I don't have a particular**  **7 objection to what we have up here now.**  **8 But when it comes to 4- and 6-inch**  **9 bowl diameter does that mean that VSO is just**  **10 4 and 6? Like a 3-inch would not be a VSO, it**  **11 would be something else? Or it would be**  **12 outside of Lot 11. Is that --**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.**  **14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **15 To the best of our knowledge it's outside of**  **16 the EU.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley.**  **18 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **19 Grundfos. Specifically the EU legislation**  **20 says submersible multi-stage water pump with**  **21 a nominal outside diameter of 4-inch or 6-inch**  **22 designed to operate -- so it specifically** 

### Page 179

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 states 4-inch or 6-inch.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **3 MR. HUBER: So we were trying to**  **4 stay in alignment with the EU. Not that they**  **5 don't make -- there are some people who make**  **6 3-inch.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Okay, Al,**  **8 thank you and thanks to Greg. Now, back to**  **9 Chuck.**  **10 MR. POWERS: Yes, and so my**  **11 purpose of starting this was not to change**  **12 things. When I read Lot 11 at the top I was**  **13 just trying to be consistent like what Greg**  **14 reminded us of and everything, you know,**  **15 what's out there.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: You were making a**  **17 clarification. Yes, okay. Okay.**  **18 Now, looking at this list of**  **19 parameters I think -- we didn't say anything**  **20 about full impeller. Is that okay? Because**  **21 I think we've covered -- well, we haven't**  **22 covered 25 gpm and greater or 459 feet of head** 

### Page 180

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 maximum. Are those good?**  **2 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. Can we**  **3 go back to bowl diameter for a second?**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on just one**  **5 second.**  **6 MS. WALTNER: Okay.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.**  **8 MR. HANDZEL: We were just talking**  **9 that we would prefer that Lot 11 not be**  **10 referenced, that this be referenced more as**  **11 the Hydraulic Institute recommendation. Just**  **12 because we're not defining what Lot 11 is**  **13 anywhere in here. There's no reference back**  **14 to the EU standard. So it just might make**  **15 more sense if it was aligned with what the**  **16 Hydraulic Institute's on-record recommendation**  **17 is. If that makes sense to everybody.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Does that**  **19 make sense to everyone? I think it makes**  **20 sense. Chuck.**  **21 MR. POWERS: I think the last time**  **22 we met we talked about segmenting ourselves a** 

### Page 181

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 little bit away from the EU's version to come**  **2 up with our own name. It's even in the notes**  **3 somewhere. So eventually whatever you guys**  **4 decide to call it, but something that's our**  **5 definition.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a theme from**  **7 the first meeting, we caught it. Okay, now**  **8 Meg, please.**  **9 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. I just**  **10 had a question for one of the manufacturers.**  **11 Can you give a little bit of background on the**  **12 4- and 6-inch bowl diameter and why that was**  **13 put in the European regulation? And why the**  **14 other bowl diameter should be excluded.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, are you --**  **16 yes, Greg Towsley.**  **17 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **18 Grundfos. I'm going to give you my best**  **19 guess. That's only what it is.**  **20 I think because the United States**  **21 uses the majority of multi-stage water pumps**  **22 and our nominal casing and pump sizes that we** 

### Page 182

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 make, cast iron, steel pipe, 4-6 inch, that's**  **2 where the designs have essentially started and**  **3 basically transferred over to the European**  **4 Union and other places throughout the world.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **6 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes, Greg Towsley,**  **7 Grundfos. These are typically wells used for**  **8 drinking water, irrigation, bringing water up**  **9 out of ground.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: That's the standard**  **11 diameter. Those are the standard diameters,**  **12 plural. Of the pipe, the casing, whatever,**  **13 yes. Chuck.**  **14 MR. POWERS: Like I said worldwide**  **15 there's nominal, right? And the nominal has**  **16 been accepted by the guys that do drilling**  **17 whether it's in the Middle East, Asia, or**  **18 wherever. And they go all the way up to**  **19 20-inch but they're in increments, right?**  **20 But to the point made before, when**  **21 you get to 10-inch you start to fall into a**  **22 lot more heavy industrial mine de-watering and** 

### Page 183

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 stuff like that. It's the 4- and 6-inches are**  **2 very common for the drinking water and those**  **3 kind of aspects, right?**  **4 Because you have deep down**  **5 borehole pumps that are into the oil and gas,**  **6 and they have nothing to do with water, stuff**  **7 like that.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **9 MS. WALTNER: So I guess the**  **10 follow-up question is defining it so**  **11 specifically as 4 and 6 rather than less than**  **12 6, you know, is there a threat of someone**  **13 coming in with a 3-inch bowl size.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: So then how do we**  **15 -- we want coverage that's sufficient here, I**  **16 believe, right? So what do we do about that?**  **17 Joanna.**  **18 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. If I**  **19 could just ask a question. So I think you've**  **20 explained that the larger bowl diameters**  **21 typically aren't used for water applications.**  **22 What about the 3-inch? What's the typical** 

### Page 184

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 application?**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.**  **3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel with**  **4 Xylem. And Greg, you might be able to answer**  **5 more. But where we typically see the 3-inch**  **6 is where they're replacing an existing pump**  **7 and the pipe starts to corrode and you've got**  **8 to get a new pump down the hole. The 3-inch**  **9 will fit a lot easier than trying to get a**  **10 4-inch back down there. So that's where we've**  **11 seen the application, that it's more of a**  **12 retrofit product than it is used in a new**  **13 well.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Interesting.**  **15 Lucas, no? Not at this point. Joanna.**  **16 MS. MAUER: If I could just follow**  **17 up. So, I guess is there a rationale for why**  **18 the 3-inch should be excluded?**  **19 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **20 It's because the EU excluded it. And we're**  **21 trying to stay in alignment with Lot 11 so**  **22 that the regulations would at least be very** 

### Page 185

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 similar or very close. That's the reason we**  **2 picked it if you want to know the truth.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks Al.**  **4 Additional comments here? Is it sufficient to**  **5 say 6-inch and smaller bowl diameter? What**  **6 have we got. Four and six we said. Is that**  **7 sufficient for our purposes? Louis.**  **8 MR. STARR: Well, it sounds like**  **9 the EU didn't anticipate them making a 3-inch**  **10 bowl is probably what happened. And so I**  **11 don't know. It just seems like maybe we**  **12 should pick up the mistake that they made or**  **13 left out is what I was getting at.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **15 MR. HUBER: Just as a eyeball I**  **16 think all of our membership as far as we're**  **17 concerned if you want to go 6-inch and smaller**  **18 it would be okay. We don't have a problem**  **19 with it.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas Adin.**  **21 MR. ADIN: It's not a significant**  **22 point, but I mean I suppose just along the** 

### Page 186

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 same lines as a 3 is it possible that you have**  **2 5 also for the same reason that a 3 would**  **3 replace a 4?**  **4 MR. HUBER: Yes. I don't know,**  **5 maybe Greg makes those I guess.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Al's latest**  **7 proposal, just to go straight to that, 6**  **8 inches or less, right? And you suggested most**  **9 of your members would probably be okay with**  **10 that, Al?**  **11 MR. HUBER: Yes, we're okay with**  **12 it.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al says okay.**  **14 Anybody object to characterizing it? Greg.**  **15 MR. CASE: Just to follow up. The**  **16 3-inch models tend to run at higher speeds so**  **17 we may have to adjust our definition of speed.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that there**  **19 are a number of individuals in this room that**  **20 want to be inclusive. So I think 6 inches or**  **21 less, that would be acceptable to them. So**  **22 then let's adjust the -- either the rpms or** 

### Page 187

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 whatever we need to adjust. Bob. No? Bob**  **2 Barbour.**  **3 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from**  **4 TACO. Why wouldn't you just say 6 inch and**  **5 smaller?**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Or smaller, yes.**  **7 That's what I meant to say. Al Huber.**  **8 MR. HUBER: Well, we may have**  **9 inadvertently done something. The 3-inch**  **10 they're telling me can run up to 7,000 rpm, so**  **11 I don't know. We're getting in an area that**  **12 we don't have information on and I'm not --**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **14 MR. ADIN: But do they have to? I**  **15 mean, could you have a 3-inch pump that still**  **16 is restricted by the speed?**  **17 MR. HUBER: Well, probably they're**  **18 going to increase the speed because -- so that**  **19 they could get the head out and the volume out**  **20 that they need. Because now they're 3-inch**  **21 instead of 4.**  **22 MR. ADIN: Right.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers again.**  **2 I think we're just going around on this and**  **3 we're taking it way out of context.**  **4 The deeper you go, the smaller the**  **5 pump in most cases. Also the hotter. You**  **6 know, there's all kinds of variations, right.**  **7 But just to be clear on this if**  **8 you're going to pump water you're going to be**  **9 at a certain depth which is not very far. I**  **10 mean, in our minds 1,500, 2,000 feet might be**  **11 far, right. But it isn't in the deep well**  **12 application, right?**  **13 So, when you're dealing with fresh**  **14 water that you're going to drink some of the**  **15 aquifers and stuff that you're going to be**  **16 going down to are not going to be in the 4-**  **17 and 6-inch. And then all of a sudden you're**  **18 going to exceed the 200 horsepower issue.**  **19 There's all the factors because you can**  **20 multi-stage these things and all that.**  **21 So I think with the European Union**  **22 when I was reading through their comments and** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 notes, I think they were trying to be**  **2 practical and say look, drinking water, 4- and**  **3 6-inch wells are most common.**  **4 Yes, you'll have a 3-inch, you**  **5 might have a 2-inch, but they're going to be**  **6 rare, right? It's kind of like the engine**  **7 drive issue. You know, it's just no problem,**  **8 but it isn't going to be the majority which**  **9 you're going to deal with. And you're dealing**  **10 with the U.S.**  **11 MR. ADIN: So, the general**  **12 understanding is that 4- and 6-inch**  **13 encompasses the vast majority of --**  **14 MR. POWERS: I think if you did a**  **15 lot of studies you'll find it's the majority**  **16 of the stuff you're going to see.**  **17 MR. ADIN: For clean water**  **18 applications.**  **19 MR. POWERS: For drinking water**  **20 and all that, clean water, yes.**  **21 MR. ADIN: Right, okay.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: That last exchange** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 between Lucas and Chuck, thank you. Now, so**  **2 the proposal on the table is what at this**  **3 point? Alison, where are we?**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I think**  **5 people have to express whether they care about**  **6 the 3-inch or not, right?**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Gary.**  **8 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **9 IOUs. So, Lucas, this addresses the same**  **10 concern we had previously about loopholes. So**  **11 if we limit it to 4 and 6 is somebody going to**  **12 make it 3 or 5. I think we should do**  **13 everything we can to avoid creating loopholes.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: So 6 inches or**  **15 smaller we established earlier was, we think,**  **16 acceptable to the manufacturers. What do we**  **17 do about the rpm range? Yes.**  **18 MR. ADIN: For the record I agree**  **19 in principle. I think I just wanted to**  **20 establish where that basis might have been**  **21 coming from.**  **22 But I think one thing that might** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 be useful is if there is some real practical**  **2 reason to exclude 3-inch because of this speed**  **3 thing that we can't get around or something**  **4 like that, that's at this point I think what**  **5 we're trying to figure out. And I don't know**  **6 that we have.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. Pardon**  **8 me, that was Lucas just then. Now Al Huber.**  **9 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **10 If we leave it 6-inch or smaller and leave the**  **11 2 and 4 pole nominal speeds then it will**  **12 probably eliminate the 3-inch in most cases.**  **13 Not in all cases but in a lot of cases. I**  **14 mean, it would be a rare factor.**  **15 We're not really concerned about**  **16 it as an industry of somebody trying to get**  **17 around it because you've got a 4- and 6-inch**  **18 hole. And that's been the standard practice**  **19 for I don't know how long, 50, 60, 100 years.**  **20 I don't know. So, people are not going to**  **21 deviate from that a great deal.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **2 IOUs. So, Al, how do you get higher than 2**  **3 pole speed? What kind of motor might you have**  **4 turning this 3-inch?**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **6 MR. POWERS: I'll speak on my side**  **7 and I'm sure some others can add. If you have**  **8 a VFD drive, first off, most of them are**  **9 capable of going an additional 10 percent that**  **10 I've been experienced with, right?**  **11 The next factor is the pump**  **12 design. I mean, Charlie and I and Al, all of**  **13 us here, we look at tip speeds and other**  **14 factors. What is the real limiting going**  **15 above a 2 pole speed, it's not because the**  **16 pump can't go faster. There's physical**  **17 parameters allow it to, but there's**  **18 limitations.**  **19 And then it's the motors design is**  **20 usually 2 pole, things like that. But their**  **21 VFDs can make it, engine drives can make it**  **22 faster, gear drives.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 And then just permanent motor**  **2 designs. There's a lot of factors that can**  **3 speed up.**  **4 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, Gary,**  **5 California, IOUs. That all sounds like good**  **6 news to me because the faster speed with the**  **7 VSD sounds potentially more efficient. It**  **8 isn't.**  **9 (Laughter)**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: So, for the record,**  **11 Chuck and Greg both said no, it's not.**  **12 Now, what should we do about the**  **13 3-inch pumps? Three inch bowl diameter.**  **14 Here's what I think I've heard.**  **15 Industry folks are saying this is really not**  **16 going to happen very much. It's a small share**  **17 of the market. We're not very worried about**  **18 it.**  **19 And then of course the energy**  **20 efficiency advocates, they want to get as much**  **21 coverage inclusion as possible. They don't**  **22 want us to create loopholes. So, what should** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 we do about this? Lucas.**  **2 MR. ADIN: If I could make a**  **3 suggestion. I mean, we do have some shipment**  **4 numbers for these different classes of pumps.**  **5 We could look at that and at least give**  **6 ourselves a rough idea of what we're dealing**  **7 with in terms of percentage of the market.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me just note**  **9 before we move on, let's look at the shipment**  **10 numbers. But we've addressed --**  **11 MR. ADIN: Just one second I**  **12 think.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: We don't have**  **14 shipments that disaggregate down to the 3-, 4-**  **15 and 6-inch level I don't believe.**  **16 MR. ADIN: Alison, that's not what**  **17 I meant.**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.**  **19 MR. ADIN: I just meant for**  **20 vertical turbine pumps generally and then to**  **21 the extent we have any general information**  **22 about -- I don't know if the manufacturers** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 have a sense of that, it's 4, 6, or what**  **2 percentage of those might be 3.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: So it's possible**  **4 the shipments data we have for vertical**  **5 turbine submersible are only for 4- and 6-inch**  **6 because that's probably what the manufacturers**  **7 reported to us.**  **8 MR. ADIN: Okay.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, we**  **10 can look at them, but.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.**  **12 MR. FERNSTROM: On this issue --**  **13 Gary, California IOUs -- out in California**  **14 we're worried about the ag pumping**  **15 opportunity. Are ag pumps typically 6-inch or**  **16 smaller bowl diameter, or are they bigger than**  **17 that?**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **19 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **20 They range usually 6-inch and up because**  **21 you're talking about large fields and a lot of**  **22 volume.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so my**  **2 concern is that by limiting ourselves to**  **3 6-inch or smaller we're not looking at that**  **4 large opportunity that presents itself in**  **5 areas where there's a lot of ag pumping.**  **6 MR. POWERS: I don't know if I**  **7 totally agree --**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Chuck**  **9 speaking.**  **10 MR. POWERS: Yes, sorry -- with**  **11 the total approach we're taking here.**  **12 If you're talking agricultural now**  **13 you're going to get back to the concept of**  **14 fire pumps where you're going to run maybe 3**  **15 or 4 months a year, right? Your growing**  **16 season. So you're not a full year.**  **17 Now, the degree, you know, maybe**  **18 in Florida there's a longer period of time**  **19 based on orange groves, but it's not an**  **20 irrigation factor. There's other factors**  **21 going. And there's another chart where I'm**  **22 going to comment too later in the slide deck** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 on that.**  **2 In California you have growing**  **3 seasons that are different in the valleys down**  **4 there and places like that, no doubt.**  **5 But when it comes to drinking**  **6 water, when it comes to the systems we're**  **7 talking about here I think, you know, we keep**  **8 going around this. I think the 4- or 6-inch**  **9 is going to be the majority which you're**  **10 dealing with on what we're trying to define,**  **11 right?**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it the great**  **13 majority?**  **14 MR. POWERS: In the volumes, sure.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **17 IOUs. Well, I agree that drinking water pumps**  **18 probably fall within this scope. But our**  **19 concern about agriculture, even though as you**  **20 point out it may be only 3 or 4 months, it's**  **21 totally coincident with our peak and it's**  **22 typically 24 hours a day.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 And it's a load which is of very**  **2 high cost and concern to us and high-cost to**  **3 the farmers. It's not unusual for farmers to**  **4 have 60 or more percent of their cost**  **5 associated with water pumping and electricity.**  **6 So, I want to be sure we don't**  **7 exclude agricultural pumping from this**  **8 discussion.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.**  **10 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **11 Xylem. So, again, just reiterating what we**  **12 said before, that this recommendation was made**  **13 to stay in alignment with the EU**  **14 recommendation. So, that's why it's limited**  **15 the way it is. And we're not saying that**  **16 there aren't other opportunities outside this,**  **17 but we are staying in alignment.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, right. Yes,**  **19 Alison.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,**  **21 LBNL. Sorry. I just wanted to note that in**  **22 HI's comments on the framework they suggested** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that vertical turbines beyond 6-inch bowl**  **2 assemblies could be added in a subsequent**  **3 phase 2 addition to capture additional energy**  **4 savings.**  **5 So, like Mark said they're trying**  **6 to align with the EU but it -- there's not**  **7 necessarily a reason for not excluding some at**  **8 point in time.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: They're suggesting**  **10 a phased approach, that this working group,**  **11 correct me if I'm wrong, this working group**  **12 take up the HI proposal and deal with that.**  **13 And then other products, other classes of**  **14 products do at some later date, or figure out**  **15 what to do about it. Gary.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California**  **17 IOUs. So, okay, you know, we're talking about**  **18 a separate proceeding maybe for circulators,**  **19 a phased approach to accommodate agricultural**  **20 pumping.**  **21 I'm just concerned about how much**  **22 time it's going to take to get there. So,** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that's not an unreasonable request or**  **2 compromise to make provided it can be**  **3 accommodated without a lot of loss of time and**  **4 energy savings.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas Adin.**  **6 MR. ADIN: So, just generally**  **7 speaking I think if we were to arrive at a**  **8 plan that was based upon a subsequent**  **9 rulemaking and a commitment to do a rulemaking**  **10 for -- whether it's for circulators, or these**  **11 other pumps, or anything else we include as**  **12 part of that plan whatever our intention is**  **13 with respect to --**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Beyond the scope.**  **15 MR. ADIN: -- time line, how we're**  **16 going to commence such an undertaking.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.**  **18 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from**  **19 TACO. Speaking for TACO we would certainly**  **20 make ourselves available if there was another**  **21 rulemaking that was going forward with some of**  **22 these other pumps and circulators.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 I mean, I don't want to sit there 2 and have anyone think we're not pro-energy**  **3 efficiency because we are definitely 4 pro-energy efficiency. That's why so many of**  **5 our products are actually system- and 6 control-oriented to try to improve the**  **7 efficiency of the pumps. 8 Because like we've talked about**  **9 with the Lot 11 group and the extended 10 product, there's so much advantage to be done**  **11 with control as far as energy efficiency 12 compared to what we're ever going to get out**  **13 of pump efficiency improvement when you talk 14 about bare pumps.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr. 16 MR. STARR: So, Louis Starr with**  **17 NEEA. One thing, and this Lot 11 is probably 18 fine, but in reality it would be nice if we**  **19 sort of approached this what you're going to 20 look at based on an engineering approach. So**  **21 you look at how much energy is being used and 22 how much is being saved.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 You know, I don't know how much is**  **2 planted in Europe as opposed to here but**  **3 one-third of the crops are grown in**  **4 California. We're doing a lot more growing**  **5 stuff whereas they're importing things. So**  **6 the opportunity for saving energy in an**  **7 irrigation pump is not as great in Europe. So**  **8 by adopting Lot 11 we're kind of adopting that**  **9 we are Europe.**  **10 And so while for this rulemaking**  **11 it's fine, but I think we should also be**  **12 looking at what the opportunities are as DOE**  **13 should be looking at it as a process, what**  **14 opportunities are available and what the**  **15 cost-effectiveness of those savings are.**  **16 So in other words, what Gary was**  **17 kind of talking about, he doesn't know because**  **18 he hasn't done the energy analysis on it, but**  **19 it seems like DOE should be looking at that**  **20 just to see what the scale of opportunities**  **21 are at this point to maybe help in future**  **22 rulemakings or if necessary in this** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 rulemaking.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: So the issue of a**  **3 phased approach has been raised again. There**  **4 are practical considerations here and I'm**  **5 wondering how that idea generally squares with**  **6 members sitting here.**  **7 Because we're also thinking about**  **8 what the duration of this negotiation would**  **9 be, what the configuration of the test**  **10 procedure and how that would square with the**  **11 scope that we have in mind. So I just**  **12 generally hear what people have to say about**  **13 a phased approach or not. Al Huber.**  **14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **15 As far as the manufacturers are concerned, and**  **16 I believe I speak for all of us, a phased**  **17 approach is fine with us and we certainly**  **18 would support it as we've supported this first**  **19 effort.**  **20 We think it's the best thing to do**  **21 because there are differences. And although**  **22 we don't mind giving data, I've got to tell** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 you, we've got people busy doing other things**  **2 besides giving data and this is really**  **3 becoming a burden for us.**  **4 Because it's our engineering**  **5 departments that are doing it. And it's --**  **6 sometimes it gets onerous to us. So we'd**  **7 rather do it in a phased approach and we think**  **8 it's a wise move. That's the way the**  **9 Europeans have done it. I think they did that**  **10 because of that.**  **11 And it gives the industry an**  **12 opportunity to phase in these efforts and**  **13 their engineering department is not just**  **14 getting the data for the DOE but also it gives**  **15 them an opportunity to get the job done and**  **16 then move onto the next products.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, follow on.**  **18 MR. POWERS: Yes, and I'd agree.**  **19 What I've been trying to focus here is, this**  **20 is my overall opinion, I think we all**  **21 adamantly and amicably want to get something**  **22 done and it's good for everything, number one.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Number two, I think we want to get**  **2 it done in a reasonable amount of time. I**  **3 heard from DOE the end of this year or**  **4 something.**  **5 We keep dancing around, in my**  **6 opinion that's what we're doing sometimes. We**  **7 keep changing stuff, doing whatever, we're**  **8 going to blossom this into a -- we're going to**  **9 boil the ocean.**  **10 And I totally agree in a way,**  **11 there's a lot of other products that we could**  **12 do this with, but I think you need to have a**  **13 phased approach. And do it with common sense**  **14 and with facts and a lot of data to make sure**  **15 we do it correctly, okay?**  **16 Because when we get to this**  **17 efficiency issue, we get to this power issue**  **18 on irrigation, you know. If you take center**  **19 pivots which you see when you fly across the**  **20 U.S., okay, that data table that they had in**  **21 your slide deck there talks about the amount**  **22 of energy, right. Well, the pump is one piece** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 of it.**  **2 You take that center pivot that**  **3 rotates around and all-electric motor drives,**  **4 that's where a lot of that power goes to also,**  **5 not the pump itself. Just there's factors**  **6 we've got to look at to make sense out of.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.**  **8 MR. POWERS: And just let me**  **9 finish. What I was trying to get to is when**  **10 I look down that line of categories if you put**  **11 10-inch, 12-inch, these other sizes in there,**  **12 all of a sudden you're going to blow away the**  **13 head, you're going to blow away the horsepower**  **14 and you're not going to be within the confines**  **15 of other stuff. You know what I mean?**  **16 And by the way, we could put a**  **17 10-inch up there. Okay, we're going to run it**  **18 at 14 pole to keep it under the 200 horse and**  **19 certain things.**  **20 Again, I'm just trying to bring**  **21 the logic. You can't look at one item, you've**  **22 got to be looking at the whole chart to make** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 sure we keep it in context.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary**  **3 Fernstrom.**  **4 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary,**  **5 California IOUs. I've indicated an openness**  **6 to considering a phased approach. I think we**  **7 need to think about how long that might take**  **8 and what the energy savings-wise implications**  **9 are of that time-related delay.**  **10 However, I'd like to point out**  **11 that from our first meetings on this subject**  **12 2 and a half years ago I've consistently**  **13 indicated that we're interested in circulator**  **14 pumps.**  **15 And I don't think they should**  **16 summarily be delayed or put in a separate**  **17 process until we've assessed how much**  **18 opportunity there is there and have a reason**  **19 for putting them aside.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Lucas.**  **21 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. So, I**  **22 think at least for this particular discussion** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 we'll maybe finish this and then we can go**  **2 right into the circulator part of it because**  **3 obviously that's the next biggest item that we**  **4 still have yet to address as far as scope.**  **5 MS. WILLIAMS: Should we walk**  **6 through this?**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Tom Eckman**  **8 first.**  **9 MR. ECKMAN: Going back to my**  **10 original comment on why this was only -- this**  **11 parameter list was pertinent to the HI. We**  **12 haven't discussed all the other parameters**  **13 that might be associated with some other**  **14 classes of pump. So I think for what you guys**  **15 proposed we want your guidance and comfort**  **16 that this is the appropriate -- for what your**  **17 initial proposal was that we've got a pretty**  **18 good lock on this stuff. That's my view.**  **19 And then we're going to discuss**  **20 whether there's other things in scope or not.**  **21 But we haven't gotten there yet. I just want**  **22 to, before we move on make sure that you're** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 comfortable and we're comfortable with, as you**  **2 proposed it and had it in your mind is this**  **3 the right fit for the parameters that the HI**  **4 folks proposed to begin with.**  **5 Gary and I have delusions of**  **6 grandeur about other things and we'll get to**  **7 those. But before we do let's make sure we're**  **8 okay here. And then I'm fine to move on.**  **9 But again, these are circumscribed**  **10 throughout. Your proposal, does this capture**  **11 what you want to limit it, you had envisioned**  **12 it limited to, and then we can discuss whether**  **13 Gary and I's delusions are possible or not.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: The only thing that**  **15 I, as I look at the list, we're still unclear**  **16 about --**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, about**  **18 hydraulic -- did you decide for sure on shaft**  **19 power?**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: I think everybody**  **21 said shaft power. And then we have 6 inches**  **22 and smaller which seems to be inclusive. But** 

### Page 210

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 maybe that screws up your -- Paul Lin.**  **2 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal**  **3 Beloit. Does the EU Lot 11 say shaft power at**  **4 BEP? It doesn't say that, does it? It just**  **5 says shaft power, right? So, should we strike**  **6 the BEP?**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Alison**  **8 Williams. We need to know how your pumps are**  **9 being classified, right? So it's helpful if**  **10 there's a reference point. Otherwise, how do**  **11 I know if you're at 120 percent or -- right?**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley.**  **13 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **14 Grundfos again. This is just to throw out**  **15 what's in the EU regulation. It states a**  **16 maximum shaft power of 150 kilowatt. So, it**  **17 does not say BEP.**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: So you want it to**  **19 be max?**  **20 MR. ADIN: The maximum being just**  **21 full load or full flow.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, say it for** 

### Page 211

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the record.**  **2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **3 Xylem. So the motors are rated in increments,**  **4 so that's a 200 horsepower motor and that**  **5 would match up with what the max and the curve**  **6 requirement would be for a pump. So we**  **7 couldn't require more than 200 horsepower.**  **8 MR. ADIN: So it's based on the**  **9 motor's rated horsepower?**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas says based on**  **11 the motor's rated horsepower.**  **12 MR. POWERS: And by the way, it's**  **13 Chuck, just to help if we want to keep a**  **14 U.S.-centric concept. The 150, a pure**  **15 calculation of .7457 comes out to 201. So,**  **16 bear with me. So that, and I'm okay.**  **17 But the point is the 459 is also a**  **18 metric modified to feet. And that, you know,**  **19 that was really supposed to be 140 meters.**  **20 And if we want to convert it out.**  **21 MR. HANDZEL: We converted it.**  **22 That's all we did.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. POWERS: Just clarification on**  **2 where these odd numbers are coming from.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison is**  **4 making the edits as we go along. Joanna.**  **5 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I'm**  **6 just unclear, the motor's rated horsepower.**  **7 I don't understand how that's -- if you're**  **8 selling a pump I just don't understand what**  **9 that means.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.**  **11 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **12 Xylem. So you have your pump curve and it has**  **13 like the further you get on the curve, the**  **14 greater the horsepower requirement. So what**  **15 we're saying is that for that entire range of**  **16 the curve it doesn't go behind 200 horsepower.**  **17 Okay?**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **20 EEI. It sounds like we're talking about the**  **21 driver again. And I thought we weren't**  **22 talking about the driver.** 

### Page 213

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, clarify this**  **2 for us.**  **3 MR. HANDZEL: So call it a driver**  **4 instead of a motor then.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: So whatever, okay?**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so that was**  **8 Mark. So, are we -- Tom made a really**  **9 important point I think which is to clarify**  **10 for HI's proposal whether these parameters**  **11 speak to that proposal effectively, or**  **12 whether, are we ready to move on. Yes, Greg.**  **13 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **14 Grundfos. Just another emphasis on the 6-inch**  **15 and smaller and the speed. And we don't have**  **16 to wordsmith it here. It can be looked at**  **17 later.**  **18 But we have our -- a 3-inch, but**  **19 it's driven by a permanent magnet motor**  **20 running 10,000 rpm. So, there will have to be**  **21 I think some wordsmithing or figure out how to**  **22 get those to coordinate properly. Yes, how it** 

### Page 214

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 fits into the speed range.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: How would you**  **3 change the speed range then?**  **4 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **5 Xylem. This was the issue we got into before**  **6 when we were talking about, you know, ECM**  **7 motors, that the speeds are all over the**  **8 place.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.**  **10 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal**  **11 Beloit. I think the concern from DOE is that**  **12 they would use a 3-inch to skirt the**  **13 regulations.**  **14 If you're going to use a 3-inch**  **15 with a PM you're not doing it because you're**  **16 trying to go to a lower-cost solution. So I**  **17 think if you have the speed plus the size I**  **18 think that covers everything.**  **19 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,**  **20 LBNL. I want to go back to the power just for**  **21 a second. So it actually is going to not be**  **22 BEP. We probably have to define it a little** 

### Page 215

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 better because there has to be some objective 2 way of determining whether or not it's**  **3 included. 4 And the range of your curve is**  **5 sort of a subjective area, right? So I don't 6 know if we need to decide it now or not but**  **7 I'm just throwing it out there that it has to 8 be an objective parameter.**  **9 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from 10 Xylem. So what we're saying is that it's not**  **11 really end of curve. Sorry, that wasn't the 12 right term, but it's the max horsepower**  **13 required by a particular diameter. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, but what is**  **15 the -- I mean, you can cut off your range 16 wherever. If you have an inclining power**  **17 curve wherever you decide that that is a no 18 longer appropriate place to run is somewhat**  **19 subjective, right? I mean, I know you have 20 good reasons for it as a designer.**  **21 But like as DOE trying to enforce 22 this rule, right, you have --** 

### Page 216

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Sarah**  **2 Widder.**  **3 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder from**  **4 PNNL. But this is getting to the test**  **5 procedure part where if we're going to define**  **6 max horsepower it's perfectly fine to have**  **7 these criteria be based on that.**  **8 But that would have to be**  **9 something in the test procedure where we set**  **10 a new protocol for here's how you determine**  **11 max horsepower for a given pump specifically**  **12 for each pump. And then that would be an**  **13 additional thing that was run as part of the**  **14 test procedure if you tie it to max horsepower**  **15 instead of BEP. Whatever we tie it to, that**  **16 will have to be quantitatively determined.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **18 MR. ADIN: Right, Sarah is exactly**  **19 right. I mean, it's akin to like an air**  **20 conditioner, for example, which its coverage**  **21 or its product class is determined by its**  **22 capacity. The test procedure defines how you** 

### Page 217

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 determine capacity so that's what we're**  **2 dealing with. So you can appreciate how it**  **3 becomes important.**  **4 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **5 Xylem. So obviously the issue that we're**  **6 getting into is we have a pump, for example,**  **7 that could be sold with a 100 through a 250**  **8 horsepower motor to cover the entire range of**  **9 the performance.**  **10 So if we're cutting it off at 200**  **11 only part of that pump's performance is**  **12 regulated, just to give you an example. So**  **13 that's why this is a tough thing for us to pin**  **14 down because our pumps are designed to use a**  **15 range of motor horsepowers or driver**  **16 horsepowers.**  **17 MS. WIDDER: So, to respond to**  **18 that a little bit. I think that that is -- I**  **19 can see where that's confusing, but it's**  **20 actually not that gray. So, depending on**  **21 where we define the cutoff. Let's say we**  **22 define it based on BEP and you have a pump** 

### Page 218

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that can be used with 100 to 250 horsepower**  **2 motors, provided that the BEP of that pump is**  **3 less than or equal to 200 horsepower, you're**  **4 in. It doesn't matter if you go higher or**  **5 not, it doesn't matter if you go lower, it**  **6 doesn't matter, as long as you pick a point,**  **7 there's two sides, it's sort of black and**  **8 white.**  **9 MR. POWERS: And I think -- sorry,**  **10 Chuck Powers. What you're saying -- I want**  **11 Greg to speak up here, maybe Charlie in a**  **12 second -- I'm okay with.**  **13 But what also is important, in a**  **14 way we might want to use the nomenclature BEP.**  **15 And the reason is the MEI calculations talk**  **16 about BEP and the plus or minus percentage**  **17 factors.**  **18 So to be fair to ourselves if you**  **19 don't have BEP you're just going to pick a**  **20 spot in the dark and you're not going to know**  **21 where you're at, right? So I think -- if**  **22 that's fair.** 

### Page 219

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah.**  **2 MS. WIDDER: So I just want to**  **3 make sure I understand what you're saying.**  **4 You're thinking BEP, tying these criteria to**  **5 horsepower at BEP might be a well-defined**  **6 rating point.**  **7 MR. POWERS: Right.**  **8 MS. WIDDER: Okay. I would agree.**  **9 MR. POWERS: Charlie, are you okay**  **10 with that?**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.**  **12 MR. CASE: If we could have five**  **13 minutes to caucus to talk about this.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. You know**  **15 what?**  **16 MR. CASE: Make sure we have an**  **17 idea of what's going on here.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: We're due for a**  **19 break anyway. Let's take a break. Let's take**  **20 a 15-minute break. It's 10 minutes till 3**  **21 which means we'll resume at quarter after.**  **22 You all know that there are** 

### Page 220

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 restrooms at both ends of the hall and there's**  **2 a Coke machine on the ground floor headed**  **3 towards the Subway shop, the coffee shop, on**  **4 the left-hand side. It's going to close in 10**  **5 minutes.**  **6 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter**  **7 went off the record at 2:49 p.m. and went back**  **8 on the record at 3:06 p.m.)**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: When we left off we**  **10 were going to hear from industry**  **11 representatives and their thinking on the**  **12 correct language. Greg.**  **13 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. We just**  **14 wanted to make sure we didn't see any issues,**  **15 technical issues with defining that at BEP.**  **16 But we're fine with the horsepower being**  **17 defined one to two hundred horsepower at the**  **18 best efficiency point.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, that's good.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Shaft power.**  **21 MR. CASE: Yes.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: BEP. And just to** 

### Page 221

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 be clear you're speaking now, your caucus met**  **2 and members of your caucus which would be**  **3 virtually all the industry members here in**  **4 this room. They're comfortable with this.**  **5 MR. CASE: Correct.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: And it's shaft, not**  **8 hydraulic?**  **9 MR. CASE: Shaft horsepower.**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. And so the**  **11 flow and the head are also at BEP, correct?**  **12 Just for clarity.**  **13 MR. CASE: Yes.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. Thank**  **15 you for that.**  **16 Now, Lucas was suggesting -- I**  **17 should probably ask. Noting that we're**  **18 talking about parameters on the HI proposal as**  **19 listed here having had considerable discussion**  **20 on these parameter elements is there anything**  **21 additional you want to say before we move on?**  **22 Joanna Mauer.** 

### Page 222

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. MAUER: Just on the speed. I**  **2 think we all have the same intent about what**  **3 it's covering, that we want to try to include**  **4 PM motors. I'm just wondering if maybe DOE**  **5 could take another look just at the specific**  **6 definition to see whether that makes sense.**  **7 I think we have the same intent, I'm just not**  **8 -- I'm unsure about the specific language.**  **9 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **10 Xylem. So, Joanna, I think because we're**  **11 trying to limit it down to the general water**  **12 pumps within the HI specification there's --**  **13 the PM motors are pretty limited in their**  **14 availability right now when you get into the**  **15 bigger sizes. Paul maybe can comment on that.**  **16 So, I think when we start talking**  **17 circulators the speed is a whole `nother**  **18 matter. Obviously we talked about the PM3 and**  **19 submersible.**  **20 But in general purpose pumps I**  **21 think this is the best way to define it, okay?**  **22 Because we're not seeing those motors yet** 

### Page 223

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 being used on general purpose pumps.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.**  **3 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I guess**  **4 I thought the discussion was that, right, they**  **5 may not be very common today but that there**  **6 are some pumps that would fall kind of under**  **7 this definition, these parameters that do use**  **8 PM motors. We may see more of this in the**  **9 future and that we just want to make sure that**  **10 those are covered as well.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark follow on and**  **12 then I'm going to Paul, or do you want to have**  **13 Paul go first?**  **14 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I mean I**  **15 understand what Joanna's saying. She's trying**  **16 to say let's prepare this for the future. So**  **17 I mean, I do see other manufacturers, Nidec**  **18 and Marathon, for example, coming up with**  **19 larger PM motors that could be ending up using**  **20 on these pumps, but it's so early on we can't**  **21 define it at this point.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ADIN: So, just a clarifying**  **2 point here. This item really is meant to**  **3 identify an operating parameter of the pump.**  **4 So we're not necessarily excluding specific**  **5 types of motors, we're just saying pumps**  **6 design and operate at these speeds, whether**  **7 it's with a 2 or 4 pole induction motor or**  **8 some other type of motor.**  **9 It doesn't necessarily I don't**  **10 think preclude a pump with these parameters,**  **11 operating parameters from using some other**  **12 type of motor.**  **13 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Yes,**  **14 and I appreciate that. And I agree. I'm just**  **15 personally unsure of whether this language**  **16 captures I think what you just said.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul is in the**  **18 queue.**  **19 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal**  **20 Beloit. I think from future-proofing my**  **21 preference would be a speed range versus a**  **22 pole because a PM is not strictly tied to a 2** 

### Page 225

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 or a 4 pole basis.**  **2 MR. ADIN: Right, that's precisely**  **3 the point I think I was trying to make. And**  **4 as long as we are all under the same**  **5 understanding that using this kind of language**  **6 wouldn't preclude those other types of motors**  **7 from being used in these pumps then I think**  **8 that's what we're trying to get at.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Follow on.**  **10 MR. LIN: So for that case then I**  **11 think the preference would be 1,800 or 3,600**  **12 base speed versus a 2 or a 4 pole.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **14 MR. ADIN: Well, I think that's**  **15 why we use the motor speeds part of it. So**  **16 it's not 2 or 4 pole motor, it's nominal 2 or**  **17 4 pole motor speeds, the speed associated**  **18 with.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: So 1,800 and 3,600.**  **20 MR. ADIN: Right.**  **21 MR. LIN: Right. But the point**  **22 though is that if you're future-proofing,** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 right, a PM motor is not a 2 or a 4 pole.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Gary**  **3 Fernstrom.**  **4 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,**  **5 California IOUs. So Paul, to your point, we**  **6 haven't specified a 2 or a 4 pole motor. The**  **7 language was changed to reference the speeds**  **8 associated with those motor designs, not those**  **9 motor designs.**  **10 But to Lucas' point, by defining**  **11 pump designs that meet this criteria we are in**  **12 a way limiting ourselves with respect to PM**  **13 motors because Greg mentioned that they have**  **14 a submersible with a PM motor that operates**  **15 at, what, ten or twelve thousand rpm. So the**  **16 PM motor capability goes well beyond the pump**  **17 design criteria referenced here.**  **18 MR. ADIN: Is the pump -- maybe**  **19 this is a point that I didn't quite fully**  **20 understand when it was first raised. But does**  **21 that pump, that high-speed pump, otherwise**  **22 fall within the parameters that we've shown up** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 here?**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: State the question**  **3 again.**  **4 MR. ADIN: Gary just referenced a**  **5 pump that was mentioned earlier, an example of**  **6 this type of pump then can operate at, what**  **7 was it, 10,000 rpm? Would that otherwise --**  **8 I mean, would it be excluded on some other**  **9 basis?**  **10 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary,**  **11 California IOUs. I'm deferring to Greg to**  **12 think about the answer to that.**  **13 But I think it would, aside from**  **14 the speed requirement.**  **15 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **16 Grundfos. Without looking at the performance**  **17 data right away I would think that -- and some**  **18 of the other parameters that we've discussed**  **19 in looking at multi-speed pumps and defining**  **20 them based on three stages, et cetera, et**  **21 cetera. I think it would still fall within**  **22 all of it.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary**  **2 again. So, Lucas, I want to make sure that if**  **3 we all agree to accept this we recognize that**  **4 these pump design criteria would preclude some**  **5 of the attributes of PM motors. Not all of**  **6 them but some where these motors operate at**  **7 speeds outside of the range of what is defined**  **8 here.**  **9 And I'd like to know how the**  **10 industry feels about that, if that's an**  **11 important issue for them or not.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Your presumption is**  **13 as listed here, as written here pumps designed**  **14 for nominal 2 and 4 pole motor speeds will**  **15 preclude some. And the question is what's the**  **16 implication of that. Right? How much, what**  **17 types, that sort of thing.**  **18 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary,**  **19 California IOUs. So, I think Grundfos has a**  **20 pretty good pump there. And maybe it's pretty**  **21 efficient already so it doesn't matter whether**  **22 it's regulated or not.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 But I'd like to see these things**  **2 included in the regulations such that they get**  **3 credit for their performance in a way that**  **4 utilities can recognize, that is, the extent**  **5 to which they may exceed the minimum**  **6 performance requirements. And then utilities**  **7 have the opportunity to structure rebate**  **8 programs around those metrics.**  **9 MR. ADIN: So, let me just ask a**  **10 clarifying question, Gary, to make sure I**  **11 understand what you're saying. You mean for**  **12 the purposes of coverage, for those particular**  **13 pumps you're talking about including within**  **14 coverage the extent that the test procedure**  **15 would cover them there's a metric that can be**  **16 rated, not necessarily writing an efficiency**  **17 standard for them. Is that right?**  **18 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. Thank you --**  **19 Gary. Thank you for that clarification. Yes,**  **20 that's really fundamentally what we're**  **21 interested in, that they be tested and their**  **22 performance revealed so that we know how they** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 compare to other products in the market.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **3 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers with**  **4 Flowserve. I've read this thing so many times**  **5 that I can't remember everything, but actually**  **6 let me say this.**  **7 When you actually read the**  **8 Commission regulation that was the European**  **9 Parliament. This No. 547 which was 2012, the**  **10 EU standard, right? It gets into a lot of**  **11 factors. They actually wrote a product spec**  **12 around this page, okay? Now, they don't have**  **13 the page like that, but very similar, where**  **14 they got into defining every piece of this a**  **15 lot closer than what we're doing. And we're**  **16 going to need to do that, okay?**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes.**  **18 MR. POWERS: Now, with that being**  **19 said they do not talk about motor speeds.**  **20 They talk about pump speeds, okay? When you**  **21 design a hydraulic for a pump you're talking**  **22 about a pump speed. So every time we say** 

### Page 231

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 pumps designed for nominal 2 and 4 pole motor**  **2 speeds -- wrong. Okay?**  **3 And when you actually look at**  **4 their definition and you go into it they**  **5 actually specify the particular speed and**  **6 pressures for the different definitions.**  **7 Okay? They go into PMMs. They actually have**  **8 a paragraph on the permanent magnet here that**  **9 talk -- you know, pumps with nominal speed**  **10 different than 1,450 or 2,900 and they**  **11 specifically say pumps different than 1,450,**  **12 usually 6 pole or permanent magnet, one of the**  **13 following two options of testing will be**  **14 applied.**  **15 And they say pumps tested will be**  **16 tested at their pump's - at their nominal pump**  **17 speed. Because if you have something that's**  **18 running at 4,000 or -- the tested-at is**  **19 nominal to get the standard to make sure.**  **20 Then if it runs at a different**  **21 speed because of the permanent magnet that's**  **22 fine. So they go in and define that.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 So what I'm worried about is, you**  **2 know, we're putting words here that**  **3 scientifically are not making sense**  **4 mathematically. And then we need to build a**  **5 product spec around this. Because they even**  **6 say at 2,900 it's 140 meters. At 1,450 it's**  **7 90 meters. Now, 140 meters equates to the**  **8 459.**  **9 So, what I'm trying to say is you**  **10 need to really read this. And I've been**  **11 sitting here all day reading it and looking at**  **12 each one. I'm saying okay, that might be**  **13 right. But they went much further and really**  **14 defined it to put a category into really nail**  **15 it down so we don't get out of context, right?**  **16 And they do talk water pumps. And**  **17 they also talk about a rotodynamic product.**  **18 They don't talk about pump like we had. In a**  **19 more scientific way that's measurable.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I guess then,**  **21 and I'm looking to both Alison and Lucas,**  **22 these parameters are kind of -- they're** 

### Page 233

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 placeholders, they're kind of categorical, but**  **2 it's not as fully and adequately defined**  **3 nearly as the EU definition is.**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: Chuck, can I just**  **5 clarify, are you talking about the Europump's**  **6 guidance on 547?**  **7 MR. POWERS: No, I'm actually**  **8 talking about the actual standard itself. And**  **9 then there is a guidance they put out to help**  **10 explain it.**  **11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **12 MR. POWERS: But the actual**  **13 statement itself says the same things in there**  **14 about the pressures and everything else.**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, but not**  **16 about the interpretation of 6 pole and PM,**  **17 right? That's not --**  **18 MR. POWERS: That was in the**  **19 guide.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: The guide, okay.**  **21 Just making sure, yes.**  **22 MR. POWERS: But the reason they** 

### Page 234

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 did that is like Gary's bringing up, you know,**  **2 it helps people to understand when you're**  **3 talking permanent magnet this is what we're**  **4 trying to do. Not trying to hide anything,**  **5 you know, just trying to say hey, from a**  **6 practicality standpoint this is --**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe this is**  **8 not easily defined at this time and we should**  **9 just note that for that particular parameter**  **10 that there's more definition, perhaps much**  **11 more to be done.**  **12 MR. POWERS: On every one of**  **13 those.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: At every one of**  **15 these additional definition to be done. Maybe**  **16 we should accept the discussion as we have it**  **17 right now and then shortly move on. Steve**  **18 Rosenstock.**  **19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Then just for**  **20 that where you've shaded it maybe just add**  **21 something about possible issue with pump speed**  **22 it sounds like based on what Charles was** 

### Page 235

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 saying, compared to the motor speed. It's the**  **2 speed of the pump shaft I'll say rather than**  **3 the motor that might be driving it.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I'm**  **5 suggesting we move on. Before we do, Chuck.**  **6 MR. POWERS: Just one last**  **7 comment. The reason they went into detail**  **8 with each one of these, and sorry, Lucas, I'm**  **9 taking up -- is the purposes when they went**  **10 into each of these factors they broke out the**  **11 submersible MSS as they call it, or the HI**  **12 version of the 6 because they knew there would**  **13 be down the road more stuff.**  **14 So, what they started to do is**  **15 build a table and say, okay, even though we've**  **16 thrown four or five into the pot we want to**  **17 define those five now. Because as we add**  **18 circulators later or other products later**  **19 which we're all tending to lean towards, no**  **20 problem, you also have the building blocks now**  **21 to go from there.**  **22 Because they're going to be a** 

### Page 236

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 little different. You get into double**  **2 suctions there are going to be parameters that**  **3 are going to be different than, you know,**  **4 these pumps are all different so there's a lot**  **5 of technical variation between them.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams.**  **7 The reason these are combined is because this**  **8 is HI's proposal. I think they were trying to**  **9 streamline it. So I don't know if you want to**  **10 have the discussion or not of later separating**  **11 them more clearly by pump type.**  **12 MR. POWERS: Well, they're trying**  **13 to streamline them and I agree with that. I'm**  **14 just saying we've got to put a little more**  **15 technical definition behind this to make sure**  **16 it's making sense. That's all.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks for**  **18 that clarification. And the EU documents you**  **19 referenced there, does the consultant team**  **20 have all that stuff? You do have all that.**  **21 MS. WILLIAMS: So just to clarify,**  **22 we have EU 547 and the Europump Guide to** 

### Page 237

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Compliance or whatever it is, I'm not sure.**  **2 MR. POWERS: And there's a lot**  **3 more, but those are two of the probably most**  **4 pertinent.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **6 MR. HUBER: I think the upshot of**  **7 that is using 2 and 4 pole motor is not going**  **8 to eliminate the use of the --**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, I don't think**  **10 your microphone is on. The upshot of that is.**  **11 MR. HUBER: Yes, the upshot of**  **12 that is that this will not preclude -- the 2**  **13 and 4 pole motor speeds or 2 and 4 pole speeds**  **14 will not eliminate what you want, Gary. It**  **15 won't eliminate.**  **16 If you listen to what he's saying**  **17 is that you rate it at those -- you rate the**  **18 pump and test the pump at those speeds. Then**  **19 you can run it with that motor, 10,000 rpms,**  **20 it doesn't matter.**  **21 That's what they're doing, that's**  **22 what the Europeans are doing. They're taking** 

### Page 238

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that pump and they're rating it at 3,600 and**  **2 they're speeding it up. Which is okay.**  **3 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary,**  **4 California IOUs. Here's my point of**  **5 confusion, Al. Grundfos' pump using the**  **6 PM/ECM motor is designed to operate at 12,000**  **7 rpm.**  **8 MR. HUBER: Yes.**  **9 MR. FERNSTROM: It does not meet**  **10 this criteria. It's not designed to operate**  **11 at 2 or 4 pole speeds.**  **12 MR. HUBER: That's not what --**  **13 that's not the way the Europeans did Lot 11.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I just --**  **15 sorry, this is Alison. Just to clarify. I**  **16 mean, the way EU 547 reads is this way. And**  **17 I will agree in their guidance they're**  **18 interpreting it differently and so we do need**  **19 to be careful that what we mean to do is**  **20 actually reflected.**  **21 So I was surprised when I saw that**  **22 EU guidance document because there were things** 

### Page 239

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 in it that I would never have thought based on**  **2 what they wrote in 547 were actually correct.**  **3 MR. POWERS: I will clarify,**  **4 Alison. I disagree.**  **5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, go ahead.**  **7 MR. POWERS: I was part of writing**  **8 it, I was part of the team, there was a lot of**  **9 us that were very intimately involved, okay?**  **10 If you look at, just so we're**  **11 clear, if you look at 26.612 which was, it was**  **12 part of the 165/24 page. And you look at**  **13 Section -- Article 2 Paragraph 9, "Submersible**  **14 multi-stage MSS means a multi-stage**  **15 rotodynamic water pump" -- which we should go**  **16 back to our definition and clear it up, but**  **17 anyway -- "with a nominal outside of 4- or**  **18 6-inch designed to be operating a borehole**  **19 nominal of 2,900 at operating temperatures in**  **20 the range of zero to 90." So they even limit**  **21 the temperatures on those type of products.**  **22 But there's a lot of -- if you go** 

### Page 240

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to each one of these paragraphs they do define**  **2 it.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: So, sorry. My**  **4 clarification is that I believe in the**  **5 guidance it references rating some 6 pole**  **6 pumps at 4 pole speed, right, which is**  **7 definitely not in here.**  **8 So, I mean we don't need to get**  **9 into details of whether the EU wrote their**  **10 regulation right or not. I just want to make**  **11 sure that, you know, I mean Gary has a point**  **12 that what Greg's talking about is not actually**  **13 included in this as it's written right now.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **15 MR. POWERS: Just to help clarify**  **16 it. As you read through this they start out**  **17 the end suctions at both speeds. Then when**  **18 you get to the borehole products most of them**  **19 are at 2,900.**  **20 If you slow them down you're going**  **21 to have to add stages. It won't be as**  **22 efficient. So they're being smart about it** 

### Page 241

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 and saying look, these are going to be at**  **2 2,900. We don't find very many at the other**  **3 speed.**  **4 So, this is a generic speed factor**  **5 and all because you've got other products in**  **6 there. But that's what they did smart is they**  **7 went into each one and defined it to make some**  **8 common sense.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so let me ask**  **10 a process question. It seems based on the**  **11 foregoing discussion that these parameters at**  **12 some point for this working group are going to**  **13 need much more detailed definition. I'm**  **14 wondering how we get that done.**  **15 Do we rely on the consultant team**  **16 to craft a proposal for discussion? Do we**  **17 create a subgroup to wrestle with this and**  **18 bring it back in our meeting in a month, our**  **19 next meeting a month from now. How might we**  **20 address this? Greg, go ahead.**  **21 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. We will**  **22 take on the task of recreating this document** 

### Page 242

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 with the correct speeds for the U.S. industry**  **2 and we will submit it to the DOE consultants**  **3 for --**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: To upload on the**  **5 SharePoint site.**  **6 MR. CASE: Upload, yes.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And can you**  **8 in doing so try your best to address the**  **9 specific concerns you've heard in this**  **10 discussion?**  **11 MR. CASE: Yes.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be good.**  **13 That would be very helpful. Okay, great.**  **14 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. So**  **15 then what would be cool is you have an overall**  **16 parameter and in the bottom you say and refer**  **17 to whatever the document that DOE or HI want**  **18 to define it as. We call it our own, right?**  **19 And say a more detailed definition here so**  **20 it's very clear.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good.**  **22 MR. POWERS: Is that fair?** 

### Page 243

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you**  **2 comfortable?**  **3 MR. CASE: Yes.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. Great.**  **5 So thanks for HI volunteering and putting**  **6 together a group to do that.**  **7 So what do you think, Greg? How**  **8 many weeks do you think to do that sort of a**  **9 thing?**  **10 MR. CASE: We will have it done by**  **11 the end of our annual meeting because I will**  **12 want to run it by people. So that will be**  **13 Tuesday the 11th.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be**  **15 awesome because we next meet in the first week**  **16 of March, March 4 and 5. So that gives a**  **17 couple of weeks to -- for that to be viewed by**  **18 members here. Al Huber.**  **19 MR. HUBER: So that we can start**  **20 being very consistent on these things that**  **21 we're trying to pull together and publish the**  **22 industry would like to propose that we use HI** 

### Page 244

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 nomenclature, period, throughout it so that**  **2 there's no more discussion about that and no**  **3 more confusion.**  **4 So that any documents that we**  **5 write here everybody knows that what's it is.**  **6 And any documents that we see up here are**  **7 always going to reflect the HI nomenclature.**  **8 It will make it a lot easier on us in the**  **9 industry if you do that.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. Alison?**  **11 MS. WILLIAMS: So, just to comment**  **12 on that. One of the reasons we're not using**  **13 HI nomenclature solely is that some**  **14 stakeholders expressed concern over using HI**  **15 definitions and nomenclature as possibly too**  **16 narrow.**  **17 So, for the time being, before**  **18 we've all as a stakeholder group agreed on**  **19 those things, I mean unless other people want**  **20 to agree on it now that is a little bit**  **21 limiting.**  **22 And so that's why we're trying to** 

### Page 245

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 use both, to make it easier for you and to**  **2 make sure that we're not excluding things from**  **3 the scope. In probably our next discussion,**  **4 you know, maybe we can cross some things off**  **5 the table and that will help tighten up.**  **6 MR. POWERS: Can you explain**  **7 limiting? What do you mean by that?**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Chuck.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. I**  **10 mean, the comments expressed in the framework**  **11 meeting were that the definitions in HI 1.1**  **12 and 1.2 are very technical definitions. And**  **13 you make a minor change to your pump you could**  **14 claim it was no longer a VS0, for example.**  **15 I'm not taking a side on this,**  **16 right, I'm just saying that there has**  **17 previously not been complete agreement on this**  **18 issue. And so I don't want to offhandedly**  **19 sweep it under the table.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: So, what Alison is**  **21 -- what you have been doing is you've -- where**  **22 it's necessary to have dual labels, more than** 

### Page 246

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 one nomenclature, you've been doing that. And**  **2 you'd like to continue doing that until we**  **3 decide that that's not necessary.**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, just**  **5 for example, you know, we put together these**  **6 tables with the crosswalks so we can go**  **7 through them and talk about them today. And**  **8 perhaps we'll do that and maybe some of that**  **9 will help make sure that we're clarifying and**  **10 talking about the same thing.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Chuck.**  **12 MR. POWERS: But Alison, again you**  **13 know, if you go back to that slide you just**  **14 had HI is actually more defined than your**  **15 version. Look at the bottom one, radial split**  **16 RSH.**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so just -- we**  **18 have not defined anything yet. That is still**  **19 open. Definitions will be part of the**  **20 stakeholder negotiation. So I'm just**  **21 attempting to not pre-define anything before**  **22 it's been agreed to.** 

### Page 247

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.**  **2 MR. ADIN: So I just want to**  **3 clarify something. When you're talking about**  **4 using the HI nomenclature are you talking**  **5 about just using those abbreviations and those**  **6 terms to refer to those pump configurations?**  **7 We're not talking about applying a specific**  **8 definition.**  **9 MR. POWERS: In my opinion we're**  **10 not trying to define what the lot's going to**  **11 be.**  **12 MR. ADIN: That's not what I meant**  **13 really. I meant within each specific type**  **14 just saying, okay, we're going to refer to**  **15 double suction between bearings actually split**  **16 one stage as BB1. Just using those**  **17 abbreviations? Is that what you're talking**  **18 about?**  **19 MR. POWERS: So, in this case, the**  **20 first one. If you say we want the double**  **21 suction DS then the group would agree that**  **22 it's going to be the BB1 and possibly the OH4.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 But you define them. Because just for my**  **2 purpose you have three and in this case HI has**  **3 if my math is right six.**  **4 I'm not trying to say, you know,**  **5 just whatever we end up agreeing on let's use**  **6 the HI nomenclature. Because --**  **7 MR. ADIN: We're not bound to the**  **8 definitions that --**  **9 MR. POWERS: All the USA, your**  **10 constituents with manufacturing in the U.S. is**  **11 going to recognize that a lot better than**  **12 something else.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  **14 MR. ADIN: Okay.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: You understand his**  **16 concern?**  **17 MR. POWERS: Yes.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: The nomenclature**  **19 should not bind this working group to the**  **20 scope.**  **21 MR. POWERS: Right.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Bind them** 

### Page 249

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 necessarily to the complete and finished**  **2 definitions, none of that, right? They're a**  **3 label that we're using as a matter of**  **4 convenience. Okay.**  **5 Is everybody okay with that? Does**  **6 anybody see a problem with that?**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: So I will just**  **8 clarify that on these, you know, you may have**  **9 multiple HI nomenclatures in one group and we**  **10 may want to talk about the overall group.**  **11 So I mean, you know, it is what it**  **12 is for today. The slides are already made.**  **13 So I think if we go through this discussion**  **14 then we can be more clear on what to write**  **15 next time.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: So I suggest we**  **17 move on now, right? We're moving on now.**  **18 Meg, final comment.**  **19 MS. WALTNER: I would just add**  **20 from someone not in the pump industry having**  **21 both is actually helpful for me in just**  **22 understanding the product categories. I** 

### Page 250

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 understand the, you know, wanting to move**  **2 towards the HI definitions, or sorry, the HI**  **3 nomenclature overall, but just the way it's**  **4 laid out does help me understand it.**  **5 MR. POWERS: The European Union is**  **6 tough enough between countries. Even though**  **7 they're all a group, the EU, but they tried to**  **8 propose their version also and they backed off**  **9 and said look, let's stick with the pump**  **10 because everybody recognizes that. Specs are**  **11 already written.**  **12 See, what I'm worried about is you**  **13 have contractors, engineering firms out there**  **14 that have been doing this for years.**  **15 Here's an example. Do you use the**  **16 HI nomenclature or have you used -- if we use**  **17 the other then maybe that answer is right.**  **18 I'm asking Doug here, sorry.**  **19 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American**  **20 Water. If we do use nomenclature it would be**  **21 the HI. I mean, there's only certain classes**  **22 of pumps that we're buying and --** 

### Page 251

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. POWERS: Description-wise.**  **2 MR. POTTS: Yes, we describe them**  **3 more descriptively. But HI is what we would**  **4 -- we wouldn't recognize a European**  **5 nomenclature.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: You're endorsing**  **7 the proposal. Pardon me, I had a small matter**  **8 to attend to. You're endorsing the general**  **9 proposal that we use the HI nomenclature.**  **10 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. I am. To**  **11 address Meg's concern maybe it would be**  **12 helpful to have -- you could still keep a**  **13 crosswalk table in there for reference, I**  **14 suppose. But probably I could see that there**  **15 would be a lot of value in keeping consistent**  **16 nomenclature, HI nomenclature throughout.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: And then if other**  **18 pump types that aren't included in either the**  **19 HI proposal or the HI nomenclature emerge then**  **20 we'll figure out what to do about that.**  **21 Right? That's our presumption. You think**  **22 it's inclusive. Okay. Okay, well, we'll see.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Let's move on. I think Lucas over**  **2 2 hours ago suggested that maybe the next item**  **3 would be discussed would be circulators.**  **4 MR. ADIN: Right. Well, yes. Two**  **5 hours of productive conversation ago I might**  **6 have suggested that. So, that is one of the**  **7 other major items.**  **8 Now, keeping in mind that there**  **9 are -- we haven't really figured out where to**  **10 place several of these things on this list.**  **11 But it doesn't really matter order-wise**  **12 whether we talk about circulators first or not**  **13 and so we might as well go ahead and discuss**  **14 that item.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And Alison, I**  **16 don't want to put you on the spot but I'll**  **17 give you the opportunity if you wish to**  **18 describe in this table on 5 how these pump**  **19 types ended up in the green, yellow and the**  **20 red.**  **21 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. So, Alison**  **22 Williams. The ones in green are HI's proposed** 

### Page 253

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 scope. At the last meeting everyone sort of**  **2 generally agreed that's what we were going to**  **3 do.**  **4 The ones in -- sorry.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: I'll clarify.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: As a possible**  **8 preliminary minimum.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Something like**  **11 that, right?**  **12 MS. WILLIAMS: There was no vote.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: I just want to be**  **14 real clear that we were talking about -- if**  **15 this group does nothing else I think was the**  **16 actual words that I used then we presume that**  **17 they will take up this scope at a minimum,**  **18 something like that. Mark?**  **19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **20 Xylem. And I think the other thing that we**  **21 said is we thought we could use these pumps in**  **22 greens and fully comply with the DOE's** 

### Page 254

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 preferred time-line that they asked us to try**  **2 to adhere to at the last meeting.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Another point that**  **4 was made at the last meeting.**  **5 MR. HANDZEL: Right.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So keep**  **7 going.**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, the ones in**  **9 yellow are pumps that were included by DOE as**  **10 considered for coverage in the framework**  **11 document as well as a couple of other**  **12 clarifications that came up throughout our**  **13 manufacturer interviews.**  **14 There was one pump in red, the**  **15 axial/mixed flow that we have a preliminary no**  **16 on that but we can have discussion on that as**  **17 necessary. It was also in DOE's framework**  **18 document.**  **19 And we've pretty much, the other**  **20 things below in red are more of the larger**  **21 scoping issue to get down to the clean water**  **22 centrifugal pumps that is the general scope.** 

### Page 255

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Most of, the bulk**  **2 of those in the lower half of the red at least**  **3 were specifically in the exclusion list.**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **7 EEI. To clarify, in the DOE exclusion list as**  **8 proposed by DOE, correct?**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: The exclusion list**  **10 for this set of slides.**  **11 MS. WILLIAMS: Slide 6 that we**  **12 discussed.**  **13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, thank you.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Meg.**  **15 MS. WALTNER: One question. So,**  **16 on this list which wasn't on slide 6 is the**  **17 non-clean water pumps. And I know that's all**  **18 of our intent, but I'm curious if there are**  **19 non-clean water pumps that aren't somehow**  **20 captured by the rest of those exclusions.**  **21 That seems to me like a very broad, undefined**  **22 exclusion.** 

### Page 256

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **2 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. We**  **3 certainly agree with that. I don't know where**  **4 that came from.**  **5 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams.**  **6 This was a relic I think of the original**  **7 thing, to define clean water pumps and then be**  **8 clear about what the exclusion are for. And**  **9 so we sort of skipped that step of defining**  **10 clean water pumps. So it's really just meant**  **11 to be like, yes, we're focusing on clean water**  **12 pumps in this negotiation.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: So we should just**  **14 eliminate that.**  **15 MR. HUBER: Eliminate that.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, are you**  **17 suggesting that that be deleted? Because it's**  **18 nondescript.**  **19 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, there's no**  **20 -- I think somewhere we should probably be**  **21 clear. I mean, maybe we put yes in scope,**  **22 clean water pumps or something like that. I** 

### Page 257

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 mean, somewhere we should have clarity that 2 yes, we actually are focusing on clean water**  **3 pumps. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **5 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify clean 6 water pumps is a much broader term. I mean,**  **7 clean water pumps could apply to all the 8 things that we have, right?**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. 10 MR. ADIN: We don't want just one**  **11 item in there for that. That's more on that 12 other slide where you have all those other**  **13 characteristics. 14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **15 I agree wholeheartedly with what Lucas said. 16 I think we need to just delete that. And we**  **17 know we're focusing on clean water. You put 18 that in the scope from the beginning and then**  **19 you're covered. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Everybody**  **21 comfortable deleting the product, the third 22 one in the red listed under "In scope - no -** 

### Page 258

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 non-clean water pumps." We'll just take that**  **2 out and insert "yes" for clean water pumps at**  **3 the top as being the broadest possible**  **4 category. And then listing below there the**  **5 other items that you see both green and yellow**  **6 potentially. They're all potentially in**  **7 scope. Okay? We're going to do that then.**  **8 Chuck.**  **9 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. Could**  **10 you go one more page? Sorry, where's the --**  **11 MS. WILLIAMS: This one?**  **12 MR. POWERS: Yes, the one there**  **13 excluded. Okay. So you have seven there.**  **14 And --**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: They're not one for**  **16 one.**  **17 MR. POWERS: I know. I just want**  **18 to make sure -- if you go back to the ones in**  **19 red. So we have API and you corrected the**  **20 ASME ISO, good.**  **21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **22 MR. POWERS: You have fire pumps.** 

### Page 259

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 You have self-priming. I just want to make**  **2 sure they're close. Wastewater, sump, slurry,**  **3 solids handling - good. Positive displacement**  **4 is in there. And then you added the one for**  **5 axial.**  **6 I was wondering why, okay, I see**  **7 API and chemical on the same line. Okay,**  **8 that's fine.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sorry. It was**  **10 fitting on one page.**  **11 MR. POWERS: And if I could just**  **12 ask a question to the group. Maybe I missed**  **13 something. I read in the HI recommendation**  **14 through various things, and I had to find it,**  **15 I just finally found it. My memory's kicking**  **16 in.**  **17 They did not list OH5 but they did**  **18 show a sectional. But on here it shows OH5 in**  **19 the green.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: OH5 is part of it?**  **21 MR. POWERS: Because in the**  **22 definition we don't show OH5. We have** 

### Page 260

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 everything else.**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: In slide 5 which is**  **3 HI's parameters they listed OH5, right?**  **4 MR. POWERS: I'm going by the --**  **5 there was a report --**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, okay.**  **7 MR. POWERS: -- gave and we were**  **8 talking about your nomenclature. Well,**  **9 actually the European nomenclature and ours.**  **10 And it's a clarification. I'm not challenging**  **11 --**  **12 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. So they listed**  **13 it as there's no equivalent European**  **14 nomenclature. So maybe that's the difference.**  **15 MR. HUBER: We intended it to be**  **16 there.**  **17 MR. POWERS: Oh, you meant to.**  **18 MR. HUBER: Yes.**  **19 MR. POWERS: Okay, so that's**  **20 clean. Okay. So then if you go back, my next**  **21 question is as a proposal.**  **22 If we want to try to accomplish** 

### Page 261

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 something by December, and I'm just**  **2 speculating and making an assumption here,**  **3 maybe that's the green. Just bear with me,**  **4 okay? Could we now say --**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: September.**  **6 MR. POWERS: Okay.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you say**  **8 December? Gotcha, okay, the actual NOPR.**  **9 Gotcha.**  **10 MR. POWERS: Whatever we agree to.**  **11 Could we now just basically say that the**  **12 yellow would be the second phase and put some**  **13 rough timing down and then move on?**  **14 MR. ADIN: We could do that. I**  **15 mean, I think what we're trying to determine**  **16 primarily to start with is which of those**  **17 things in the yellow could prospectively be in**  **18 the green and still reasonably done as part of**  **19 this rulemaking. And I think at least for**  **20 DOE's part of it there's some where we think**  **21 that's probably not reasonable and some where**  **22 we think maybe, you know. There's just not** 

### Page 262

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 enough difference between those pumps and the**  **2 other ones we're covering in green that it**  **3 would preclude them from being addressed here.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: So I really like**  **5 the way he said that. And although it is**  **6 possible, if you could convince everyone at**  **7 this table that we could say yes to all the**  **8 greens here and just confine it there and**  **9 we're done. But I don't think you're going to**  **10 get that yet.**  **11 MR. POWERS: And then another**  **12 question would be for everybody, especially**  **13 the utilities and such, the last green one on**  **14 the list says vertical turbine (multi-stage)**  **15 submersible.**  **16 In my real world I would say**  **17 submersible turbine because it could be a**  **18 single-stage. You could have a shallow well,**  **19 you've got a single-stage water pump. I**  **20 think, Greg, you would agree there's a lot of**  **21 submersible single-stages out there.**  **22 And I think if you throw in** 

### Page 263

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 multi-stage somebody then will say oh, we**  **2 don't have to worry about the single-stage.**  **3 Trying to help.**  **4 And if you go to the HI**  **5 classification again it doesn't define how**  **6 many stages and all that stuff, right? I'm**  **7 just trying to help clarification.**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think you're**  **9 correct. I had put it in there because it's**  **10 a reference to the EU nomenclature, but we did**  **11 not intend for it to be that way. So thank**  **12 you.**  **13 MR. POWERS: So we probably just**  **14 want to say submersible turbine and get rid of**  **15 the other two words.**  **16 And then the VSO is fine because**  **17 clearly if you go to that definition it tells**  **18 you it could be a 1-stage, 10-stage, whatever.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: It's not necessary**  **20 to say it's vertical.**  **21 MR. POWERS: That's correct.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary?** 

### Page 264

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Comment here?**  **2 MR. POWERS: Gary will tell you,**  **3 and I'm speculating, Gary, in the groves out**  **4 there there's a lot of horizontal VSOs, right?**  **5 They lay flat because of their reasons. They**  **6 need them to lay flat.**  **7 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary.**  **8 Yes and thank you for your suggestion.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.**  **10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **11 Cappellino, ITT. I just want to revisit the**  **12 clean water pump addition. I'm suggesting**  **13 that that probably would be better on the**  **14 previous slide. We talk about parameters.**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: This slide?**  **16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. I suggest**  **17 it would be better taken there because that's**  **18 kind of a broad idea in terms of the clean**  **19 water.**  **20 When you have it on the second**  **21 slide it really doesn't fit with everything**  **22 else. It's really defining geometry for the** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 pump type. So just a recommendation to make 2 it clearer I think.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: That kind of makes 4 sense to me. Any objections to doing that?**  **5 Meg. 6 MS. WALTNER: Not an objection,**  **7 but this gets back to the question I was 8 trying to ask before. Is -- do we need to**  **9 specify clean water pumps? Or is it 10 sufficiently defined by what we've exempted?**  **11 I mean, we've exempted chemical 12 process pumps, API 610, wastewater sump,**  **13 slurry, solid handling. Are there other 14 non-clean water pumps that aren't covered by**  **15 those exemptions? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Or another way --**  **17 pardon me, Meg. I don't want to put words in 18 your mouth. Are all the items in green and**  **19 yellow, are they specifically as defined in 20 these nomenclatures, are they exclusively**  **21 clean water pumps. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison. To** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 clarify, that's not what she's asking. Those**  **2 might include non-clean water pumps. But in**  **3 red the exclusions of like wastewater,**  **4 chemical, and those things, right, is -- she's**  **5 trying to make sure those are encompassing.**  **6 MR. ADIN: Right. Those are**  **7 specific types of other-than-clean water**  **8 pumps. So in part we're trying to give the**  **9 group a sense of what we're excluding, what**  **10 are we talking about, like what kinds of pumps**  **11 are those. So.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **13 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **14 I think we need to move it back to parameters**  **15 and then define clean water. Because we've**  **16 said clean water and we said it also included**  **17 gray water. So we need to do that.**  **18 Because sometimes, and I say that**  **19 because sometimes people call gray water**  **20 wastewater and if you're not careful now they**  **21 won't be regulated. Okay?**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.** 

### Page 267

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HUBER: So I think you're**  **2 better off if you define it as a parameter,**  **3 call it clean water, and then define it.**  **4 MS. WALTNER: Right, and what I'm**  **5 trying to avoid --**  **6 MR. HUBER: And not in the pump**  **7 types. Those are pump types. Clean water is**  **8 a generic thing. It doesn't belong there.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, keep going.**  **10 MR. HUBER: It belongs here.**  **11 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. What**  **12 I'm trying to avoid, right, is someone taking**  **13 an OH1 pump and stamping "not for clean water**  **14 application" on the same pump and selling it**  **15 as a non-clean water pump.**  **16 I know that's not -- but these are**  **17 the types of loopholes that we want to think**  **18 about. I know that's not what you guys are**  **19 looking for.**  **20 MR. ADIN: I think we could**  **21 probably avoid that based on the pump's**  **22 characteristics. So you could say it's still** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the same pump. It doesn't matter -- if they**  **2 put a label on it that says not for clean**  **3 water it's still --**  **4 MR. HUBER: No, no, you're exactly**  **5 correct.**  **6 MR. ADIN: It would still be**  **7 covered.**  **8 MR. HUBER: You're exactly**  **9 correct.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Lucas,**  **11 confirmed by Al Huber. Now, Steve Rosenstock.**  **12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **13 EEI. And then based on the earlier discussion**  **14 that would also include pumps that are mixing**  **15 a mix of water and glycol?**  **16 MR. HUBER: That's correct.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al says that's**  **18 correct.**  **19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, I just**  **20 want to -- it's out there and I just -- it is**  **21 application.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Useful** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 clarification. Now, Mark Handzel.**  **2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **3 Xylem. So, I mean I thought we said that we**  **4 were going to define clean water further. Are**  **5 we kind of getting into that now?**  **6 So, if we want to do that let's do**  **7 that. But I'm just saying, you know, we're**  **8 kind of bit and piecing that.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought we were**  **10 going in a different direction with this which**  **11 was to clarify what we can say about other**  **12 items that might be in scope. But you know.**  **13 We have a lot of definition stuff to do and**  **14 I'm not sure we want to dive deep in that**  **15 today.**  **16 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers with**  **17 Flowserve. Again, you know, we're getting**  **18 ourselves -- if you read what the Euro**  **19 standard. Again, I'm not condoning exactly**  **20 what they wrote is exactly the way we want to**  **21 do it. I think that's what Greg is going to**  **22 try to define.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 But they say subject matter and**  **2 scope. And they go into a little more**  **3 details. Regulation establishes ecodesign**  **4 required for placing the market of rotodynamic**  **5 water pumps for pumping clean water.**  **6 Because you have a definition out**  **7 there called water pump if you're pumping**  **8 different products, right? You could have oil**  **9 lubrication for the same kind of product, et**  **10 cetera.**  **11 And it goes on. Where integrated**  **12 with other products.**  **13 So first off, it says the**  **14 regulation will apply to water pumps designed**  **15 specifically for pumping clean water**  **16 temperatures from X to Y that we already know,**  **17 water pumps designed for firefighting or**  **18 excluded. You know, it just kind of goes**  **19 through and gives a little more detail rather**  **20 than just broad statements. But it does focus**  **21 on clean water pumps.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. We have**  **2 somewhere in the past couple of years defined**  **3 clean water. I will find that definition**  **4 again and I will propose that to the group as**  **5 soon as I can find it. And again, that will**  **6 probably February 11.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, if**  **8 you've defined it previously can you see if**  **9 you can find it by tomorrow?**  **10 MR. CASE: I can try.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, that would be**  **12 great if you could. Yes, that would be great.**  **13 I'm uncertain about what we should**  **14 do next, whether we should do some more**  **15 diving. I thought that part of our purpose**  **16 here was to see if we could gain ground on**  **17 issues, for example, like circulators.**  **18 MR. ADIN: Right. And I think**  **19 it's probably more, at least from my**  **20 perspective probably more productive to move**  **21 onto that. I don't know if any of us are so**  **22 much in -- unwilling to move beyond the clean** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 water aspect purely because of the definition**  **2 at this point.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: I would simply note**  **4 that these definitions, one, they're**  **5 important. And two, when we've delved into**  **6 them today it's taken us a significant amount**  **7 of time.**  **8 And in discussing -- in deciding**  **9 the breadth of scope here a few issues which**  **10 have not been -- we haven't gained any ground**  **11 on them yet are things like circulators and**  **12 whether they should be included in the scope.**  **13 So, if we can go in some direction that sheds**  **14 some light on that I think that would be**  **15 useful to do.**  **16 Now, what do we have that will**  **17 shed light on circulators? Steve Rosenstock.**  **18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **19 EEI. What I was going to suggest is did you**  **20 want to take any sort of I'll say straw votes**  **21 on the nos, or just get things on other**  **22 maybes? I know circulation can be** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 contentious, but again just in terms of 2 process do you want to say, okay, fire pumps,**  **3 all green, no, done, period? 4 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm not a big fan**  **5 of straw votes typically. I'll just declare 6 that a priori. So I'll entertain additional**  **7 notions, though. Tom Eckman. 8 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I think before**  **9 we start talking about anything in the yellow 10 or beyond, whether it's orange because it's**  **11 now green and red combined, we need to have a 12 look at the data that's been collected and**  **13 whether we have enough information to decide 14 whether to change the color of any of those**  **15 particular products up there. 16 So I'm not in favor of making any**  **17 decision until I look and understand what DOE 18 has got collected and whether it tells us**  **19 anything or doesn't. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: And I'm here to**  **21 serve at the will of this working group, let 22 me be clear. But I as a general matter am** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 going to be trying to package things so that**  **2 all parties present get something that's**  **3 useful for them to vote for.**  **4 So, anyway. So what do we do to**  **5 shed light on the issue of circulators?**  **6 MR. ADIN: Well, we've collected**  **7 some information since the last meeting based**  **8 on some of the data requests that we got from**  **9 other members of the working group.**  **10 And to help try and characterize**  **11 the market for these products, their energy**  **12 use, et cetera. And so I'll let Alison talk**  **13 to what we've collected so far, and then I**  **14 think we also were going to get some**  **15 information on circulators generally from some**  **16 of the other working group participants.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: That sounds good.**  **18 So that was Lucas just speaking there. Now to**  **19 Alison.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So the -- to**  **21 clarify, we don't have full data on**  **22 circulators yet. We're still waiting for some** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 of it. So this is sort of just a broader**  **2 estimate of things based on some different**  **3 sources we had.**  **4 So what we primarily tried to do**  **5 for this run is compare HI's estimate with**  **6 what the CA IOUs submitted in their framework**  **7 comments to see if we can try to figure out**  **8 where the differences are between those energy**  **9 use estimates.**  **10 So the first shipments were not**  **11 really that far off. HI said 1.7 million. We**  **12 understand that this might be a slight**  **13 overestimate because of some definitional**  **14 things that went on in the first survey.**  **15 The IOUs estimated 2 million. And**  **16 we're currently estimating 1.5 million wet**  **17 rotor only from our manufacturer interviews.**  **18 So, nothing like totally out there.**  **19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Zero point what?**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **22 EEI. You say zero to 3 horsepower. Zero** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 point what? I don't know of any zero**  **2 horsepower motors out there.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: I assume it's**  **4 inclusive.**  **5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What is your**  **6 bottom range? How low are you talking about?**  **7 Just out of curiosity.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: The smallest are in**  **9 the range of one/twenty-fifth, right?**  **10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. I**  **11 just wanted to get clarified.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct me. That's**  **13 correct?**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: That's correct.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: -- a general range.**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: This was straight**  **17 from HI, so.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, keep going.**  **19 MS. WILLIAMS: So the estimated**  **20 annual operating hours. Right now we**  **21 understand that HI in their estimates used**  **22 around 2,160 hours. We have since received a** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 couple of other estimates from various people**  **2 that indicate this might be low. So we can**  **3 talk about those estimates.**  **4 And so calculating the average**  **5 draw from these motors, the HI data gives you**  **6 approximately one-tenth horsepower. We're**  **7 unclear that that is actually realistic.**  **8 It seems like that might be the**  **9 nameplate power and it hasn't accounted for**  **10 pump and motor efficiency yet. And in that**  **11 case it would be more like a two-tenths**  **12 horsepower avg.**  **13 And so using these numbers HI got**  **14 0.285 terawatt hours annual energy use. The**  **15 IOUs -- our calculation based on the numbers**  **16 they supplied was about 1 terawatt hour.**  **17 And if we change the one-tenth**  **18 horsepower assumption from HI to what we think**  **19 is maybe what should have been done, we're not**  **20 sure, then we would get somewhere in the**  **21 middle which is 0.57 terawatt hours. Which**  **22 again is based on 1.7 million shipments, 2,160** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 hours, one-tenth horsepower hydraulic and**  **2 assumed 50 percent motor and pump efficiency.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.**  **4 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Alison,**  **5 are all three estimates annual energy use from**  **6 one year of shipments?**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **8 MS. MAUER: Okay.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. Sorry,**  **10 yes.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **13 EEI. Being the utility geek what is the**  **14 assumed power factor for these motors?**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: We did not address**  **16 power factor.**  **17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Really.**  **18 Okay, all right. Okay, because that's**  **19 obviously, in terms of the kilowatt hour it's**  **20 going to -- it's not going to matter for the**  **21 KVA for the utility side. It does make a**  **22 difference for the kWh and the customer side.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you suggest**  **2 something other than 1 for a power factor?**  **3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What?**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you --**  **5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: So just to -- I**  **7 mean, I think the purposes of these is to sort**  **8 of compare them to the energy use estimates**  **9 from the other pumps that are in scope. And**  **10 so, as far as I know it should have the same**  **11 assumption across both of them.**  **12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **13 EEI. I appreciate that, but again it sounded**  **14 like this was kind of a huge point. You're**  **15 doing it for relative, and I appreciate that,**  **16 that's fine. It just sounds like -- I don't**  **17 know if you were going to use this for another**  **18 like national impact. So, thank you.**  **19 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer.**  **21 MS. MAUER: I know we haven't**  **22 gotten to this yet, so you just mentioned** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 comparing energy use to energy use of other**  **2 types of pumps.**  **3 On the previous slide is the**  **4 annual energy use annual energy use of the**  **5 stock or of one year?**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: It's one year of**  **7 shipments. I apologize for not clarifying**  **8 that on the slides.**  **9 MS. MAUER: Okay, thank you.**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: So yes, we kind of**  **11 skipped out of order. I don't know if it's**  **12 useful.**  **13 So anyway, I don't know if you**  **14 guys want to just discuss these assumptions.**  **15 You know, as I said there's some discrepancies**  **16 in the hours of operation estimates that we**  **17 could talk about. And we're still collecting**  **18 additional information to try to better**  **19 characterize what the actual average motor**  **20 draw is.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you say again**  **22 the source for -- you listed the sources here** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 to the extent you can I guess.**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So we're**  **3 really just comparing HI's estimates to the**  **4 California IOUs' estimates and trying to**  **5 figure out what the assumptions behind them**  **6 were and where the differences stem from.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: And annual**  **8 operating hours, where does that come from?**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: That is what we**  **10 understand was HI's assumption in their 0.285**  **11 terawatt hour estimate.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Discussion**  **13 on these data? Tom Eckman.**  **14 MR. ECKMAN: So, if we take the**  **15 roughly 0.6 terawatt hours a year at the**  **16 bottom line there and compare that back to**  **17 slide 15 that has in the far right-hand column**  **18 annual energy use in terawatt hours for Lot**  **19 11, at least the last -- it's in the range of**  **20 the RS-V, whatever that is in the HI**  **21 nomenclature. And bigger than the vertical**  **22 submersible in terms of annual comparison. So** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 it strikes me we're in the range of being**  **2 really careful about excluding it.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.**  **4 MR. STARR: And to follow up on**  **5 that it looks like in the analysis you're**  **6 picking up some pretty good efficiency just by**  **7 the switch-out in the motor here. So, unlike**  **8 the other pumps where efficiency is kind of**  **9 from the VFD there's a pretty good switch-out**  **10 in just switching from an ECM motor and some**  **11 other things.**  **12 In other words, there's a lot of**  **13 opportunity in these smaller type pumps. So,**  **14 if there's adequate savings and there's**  **15 adequate opportunity for cost-effectiveness**  **16 then it looks like something we should be**  **17 looking at.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **20 EEI. Again, as a follow-up, again going back**  **21 to the earlier pages where about shaft**  **22 horsepower at BEP the minimum was 1** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 horsepower. Do you have any breakout of the**  **2 number of these motors below 1 horsepower and**  **3 the number above?**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: For circulators?**  **5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: We have asked for**  **7 that data and we don't have enough to report**  **8 it yet. But we requested up to a quarter? I**  **9 don't remember. We requested a breakdown.**  **10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **11 EEI. Thank you very much because obviously**  **12 that could play into that previous slide in**  **13 terms of the minimum cutoff.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, do you**  **15 remember what the request was? Dan Weintraub.**  **16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub,**  **17 Navigant. Yes, so we discussed with the**  **18 manufacturers -- were going to provide**  **19 accounts of under one-quarter horsepower**  **20 inclusive and then above one-quarter**  **21 horsepower to 3 horsepower. That's how they**  **22 will be breaking out shipments.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **2 EEI. That's very helpful, but I'm just going**  **3 to refer -- what if our breakout is 1**  **4 horsepower? I don't know what impact that's**  **5 going to have.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional**  **7 comments on -- Tom, I thought your comment was**  **8 useful. Additional comments here on actually**  **9 these two slides? Yes, Louis.**  **10 MR. STARR: So, actually I was**  **11 remembering there was one last item from our**  **12 last meeting. I think we got in a big**  **13 discussion whether an ECM motor saves money**  **14 over a standard one.**  **15 And I don't know, I think that was**  **16 one of the technical things that DOE was going**  **17 to look and get us an answer back. So I would**  **18 like some understanding of if there is a**  **19 substantial savings just by having an ECM**  **20 motor over that, without considering the VFD**  **21 aspect or the variable speed variance of it.**  **22 So that was one item.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 And then there was another --**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just pause.**  **3 Did we gain any ground on that?**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so I mean,**  **5 this is our list of things that we were hoping**  **6 to have for this meeting. But we didn't have**  **7 enough manufacturer data to aggregate and do**  **8 those analyses yet. So, it is on our list to**  **9 do.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Gary**  **11 Fernstrom.**  **12 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Gary for the**  **13 California IOUs. Louis, we have 14 of these**  **14 pumps now and have built a test stand at our**  **15 ATS facility at San Ramon to evaluate their**  **16 performance.**  **17 I thought I might share with the**  **18 group some pictures of that when we talk about**  **19 the test procedure. In any case, in the next**  **20 month or two we'll have some actual**  **21 performance measurements.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Louis.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. STARR: Then there was one**  **2 other item. I think it was a request for**  **3 information along that same line. It was kind**  **4 of something along the lines of a test**  **5 procedure.**  **6 There was a big issue about how**  **7 difficult it was to measure what Gary was just**  **8 talking about. And so it's kind of like I**  **9 hear it was impossible and then Gary was**  **10 saying I can do it in my backyard. You know.**  **11 So somewhere between that I'd like an**  **12 objective viewpoint is this really, you know.**  **13 That was kind of something also.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait a second.**  **15 Alison, is that on your list?**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: Sarah is going to**  **17 speak.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah. Sarah**  **19 Widder.**  **20 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, PNNL.**  **21 We've been doing research on test procedures**  **22 for pumps inclusive of motors and potentially** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 controls, not necessarily -- I mean, we've**  **2 researched, theoretically we've looked up the**  **3 EU circulator test procedure, for example,**  **4 which exists. So, it is possible to test**  **5 circulators. It is done today.**  **6 Similar with other, for example,**  **7 submersible pumps that are tested. You**  **8 measure the power input to the motor. So**  **9 these are all possible things to do and are**  **10 done regularly.**  **11 We're having some extended, or**  **12 some pump and motor combinations tested at a**  **13 laboratory now and that's what they're doing**  **14 for us.**  **15 So, just to be clear, it is**  **16 certainly possible to measure hydraulic output**  **17 and power input to the motor, sort of a wire**  **18 to water test. That can be applied to**  **19 circulators, submersible pumps, even -- not**  **20 just close coupled pumps. You could do it to**  **21 separately coupled pumps also.**  **22 But that being said there's** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 probably intricacies to the test procedure to**  **2 design a representative test procedure for**  **3 circulators versus clean water pumps that we**  **4 could address later on in more detailed test**  **5 procedure discussions about what was**  **6 appropriate for what types of equipment. But**  **7 it's certainly feasible to do and done at**  **8 these manufacturer's laboratories.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.**  **10 MR. STARR: So I guess one of the**  **11 concerns was that I don't think that HI**  **12 officially has a test procedure for this yet.**  **13 So, part of the concern was that in the**  **14 context of this rulemaking it's pretty**  **15 fast-paced. And then if all of a sudden we**  **16 discovered that there's tons of energy, and**  **17 it's cost-effective savings, and there's**  **18 enough energy to save on circulators, is it**  **19 feasible in the time frame to come up with a**  **20 test procedure that would adequately represent**  **21 what we would need to do for this NOPR?**  **22 MS. WIDDER: So, I'm just one** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 person.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah.**  **3 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder. But**  **4 based on my understanding of the test**  **5 procedures that are available in the industry.**  **6 It's true that HI does not have a**  **7 circulator-specific test procedure at this**  **8 time.**  **9 But based on the similarities**  **10 between the EU circulator test procedure and**  **11 the test procedure for other centrifugal pumps**  **12 that exist I think that it would actually not**  **13 be that difficult to adapt for circulators.**  **14 The main difference that I've**  **15 observed is the load profile for circulators.**  **16 And then also they base the 100 percent or the**  **17 starting point on max hydraulic pump rather**  **18 than BEP. So that you can -- you don't have**  **19 to know what you're -- you don't have to ever**  **20 measure the pump efficiency actually.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: I feel compelled to**  **22 see if there's a counterpoint here. Greg, I'm** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 looking at you. Or Mark Handzel.**  **2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **3 Xylem.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait just a second.**  **5 MR. HANDZEL: Sarah has basically**  **6 correctly stated the Hydraulic Institute does**  **7 not currently have a circulator test standard.**  **8 The circulator committee within the Hydraulic**  **9 Institute has this as an action item scheduled**  **10 for discussion at our next meeting next week.**  **11 And certainly everything she said,**  **12 there is an established EU test procedure.**  **13 Certainly that's one of the bases that we plan**  **14 to look at. But there's, you know, obviously**  **15 we're asking our members how they test them,**  **16 and we're looking at what HI currently**  **17 publishes for sealless canned motor testing.**  **18 So, there's a lot of variables here.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: At this point**  **20 you're just scoping it.**  **21 MR. HANDZEL: That's correct.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: And then what would** 

### Page 291

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 be the normal duration for HI to seek**  **2 concurrence from its members on a finished**  **3 test procedure?**  **4 MR. HANDZEL: I'm looking to my**  **5 counterparts because I'm not sure, but Al is**  **6 whispering about a year. No? Go ahead, Greg.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Greg.**  **8 I'm just wanting to just round out both ends**  **9 of this.**  **10 MR. HANDZEL: Four years is what I**  **11 was just told.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then,**  **13 Sarah.**  **14 MR. HANDZEL: Just because we have**  **15 no experience with it.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Sarah, go**  **17 ahead.**  **18 MS. WIDDER: So, just to follow up**  **19 on that. So, DOE always appreciates industry**  **20 input and starting with industry test**  **21 procedures as a basis for their test protocols**  **22 that are used for certification.** 

### Page 292

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 But it's not -- it doesn't**  **2 preclude DOE from establishing test procedures**  **3 for equipment for which industry test**  **4 procedures don't exist, or may be insufficient**  **5 in some ways.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. When I was**  **7 writing the meeting summary from the first**  **8 meeting there was a -- I'm unclear about the**  **9 attribution because I think we mangled this**  **10 exchange.**  **11 But if you look at the transcript**  **12 I believe it was either John Cymbalsky or**  **13 Lucas who said that they expected the test**  **14 procedure was going to be completed during the**  **15 span of this negotiation. Lucas?**  **16 MR. ADIN: That's right. In fact,**  **17 it has to be. So we cannot -- actually, we**  **18 can't do a lot of the analysis that we'll need**  **19 to do to establish a cost-justifiable standard**  **20 without knowing how the products are going to**  **21 be tested and how the metric will be -- how**  **22 they'll be evaluated.** 

### Page 293

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. Mark 2 Handzel.**  **3 MR. HANDZEL: Just to clarify, is 4 it the whole water pump test procedure which**  **5 HI is working on and I think getting close to 6 completing? Not wanting to put words in**  **7 Greg's mouth. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: 40.6, right?**  **9 MR. HANDZEL: Right, right. So 10 that one is nearing completion. That's**  **11 completely different from the circulator test 12 procedure.**  **13 MR. ADIN: So, I'm just speaking 14 in very general terms. I'm not talking about**  **15 one or the other. We have to have a test 16 procedure for the pumps that we're going to**  **17 write standards for, right? 18 MR. HANDZEL: So if you looked at**  **19 the pumps in green on our previous charts -- 20 MR. ADIN: Right.**  **21 MR. HANDZEL: -- those will be 22 covered under the test procedure that HI is** 

### Page 294

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 completing.**  **2 MR. ADIN: Understood.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: And let me know --**  **4 go ahead.**  **5 MR. ADIN: Well, I was going to**  **6 say just to maybe -- since we're still on the**  **7 subject of circulators it might be a good time**  **8 to let Mark talk about their part of it. I**  **9 think they had some information that they were**  **10 going to provide regarding circulators.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark, if you**  **12 wish. I just, I don't feel like -- I think in**  **13 the first meeting several individuals on**  **14 several occasions talked about the complexity**  **15 and difficulty of creating a test procedures**  **16 for circulators. I don't think we need to**  **17 repeat all that, unless there's something**  **18 additional you want to add at this point. Go**  **19 ahead, Bob.**  **20 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from**  **21 TACO. I just want to point out that there is**  **22 a difference in the application of circulators** 

### Page 295

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 in the United States versus what you're seeing**  **2 in Europe.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.**  **4 MR. BARBOUR: The European test**  **5 standard was established around a European**  **6 style of pump which is different than over**  **7 half of the circulators that are distributed**  **8 in the U.S. marketplace today.**  **9 And I think we need to, you know,**  **10 if you're going to establish a test procedure**  **11 I don't feel that you can just base that test**  **12 procedure on the European standard testing --**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder.**  **14 MS. WIDDER: So, this is Sarah.**  **15 As a follow-up I definitely hear the point**  **16 that circulators are applied in the United**  **17 States differently than in Europe.**  **18 And to Louis' point, we don't want**  **19 to adopt wholesale everything Europe does.**  **20 That may not be appropriate. And it's**  **21 definitely something we have to consider.**  **22 But separating for a moment, and I** 

### Page 296

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 know this isn't the way that the EU regulation**  **2 is actually written so it's sort of difficult.**  **3 But separating for a moment the method of test**  **4 which describes the specific rating points,**  **5 the how to measure head, how to measure flow,**  **6 how to measure input power to the motor, how**  **7 to measure speed of rotation if that is going**  **8 to be measured.**  **9 Those methods from the rating**  **10 parameters which may specify things like the**  **11 load points, and how many load points there**  **12 are, and where they are on the curve, those we**  **13 can sort of maybe treat them separately.**  **14 Is the method different for the**  **15 circulators that are sold in the United States**  **16 versus the ones that are sold in Europe?**  **17 Understanding that the application in the**  **18 field would probably be different.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. And then**  **20 I'm coming back to you, Mark, in a moment.**  **21 Louis.**  **22 MR. STARR: A couple of things.** 

### Page 297

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 One of the things as far as the test**  **2 procedure, you know, it could be more of a**  **3 prescriptive requirement that you have ECM**  **4 motors on things that are beneath a certain**  **5 horsepower.**  **6 So, I mean, there's two stages.**  **7 Yes, there's additional benefit by trying to**  **8 capture that extra, you know, the pump doesn't**  **9 need to run at full speed the whole time.**  **10 But there's an energy savings**  **11 that's just captured by just having an ECM**  **12 motor that doesn't really matter about the**  **13 control strategy that you're using, whether**  **14 it's delta t or delta p or whatever else you**  **15 might be doing.**  **16 And that doesn't exist in a lot of**  **17 all of the other pump categories that we're**  **18 talking about. There's a huge gold mine of**  **19 savings that exists there.**  **20 And then you get into the**  **21 specifics of control strategies and there's**  **22 some more to be picked up there. But there's** 

### Page 298

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 a lot to be found.**  **2 And they have done this in 90.1**  **3 which is the codes for a lot of the building**  **4 codes for the U.S.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: ASHRAE.**  **6 MR. STARR: ASHRAE 90.1 has a**  **7 standard on the fan motors that requires**  **8 everything under 2 horsepower to have ECM**  **9 motors. This is the same idea that I'm**  **10 thinking about for pumps.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **12 Pardon me, Gary Fernstrom.**  **13 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary for the**  **14 California IOUs. So, I'd like to concur with**  **15 Louis. I don't know whether DOE is**  **16 particularly fond of prescriptive requirements**  **17 or not, but I think the -- certainly the**  **18 performance improvement opportunity ought to**  **19 be recognized.**  **20 To go to Sarah's point, it's our**  **21 belief that the test procedure is perfectly**  **22 fine for measuring performance. It's the load** 

### Page 299

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 points and so on that are specified that are**  **2 probably not appropriate for the U.S. market.**  **3 To get to the ultimate test**  **4 procedure I think it's going to take a lot of**  **5 thought. Because we want to give some thought**  **6 to the loads, temperatures, control**  **7 mechanisms, to really get to the best method**  **8 of valuing.**  **9 But to go back to Louis' point, I**  **10 think there are fundamental intrinsic**  **11 improvements that we can observe and assess**  **12 based just on the test procedure without the**  **13 load points and draw some conclusions from**  **14 that.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve**  **16 Rosenstock.**  **17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **18 EEI.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, let Bob**  **20 follow on.**  **21 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour**  **22 from TACO again. I'm just a little confused.** 

### Page 300

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 I don't understand where the advocates' 1.0**  **2 terawatt came from. I don't know what the**  **3 numbers are that are behind that. Are you**  **4 using the 2,160 hours? Are you using some**  **5 other number of hours? How are you**  **6 calculating that 1 terawatt?**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I -- sorry. I**  **8 just got the numbers last night. So I think**  **9 that they were actually using 7,300 hours**  **10 which is for hydronic heating applications.**  **11 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour**  **12 again. I don't think there's anyone that's in**  **13 the industry that would believe those hours**  **14 are even close.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: What would you**  **16 suggest they are?**  **17 MR. BARBOUR: I believe that 2,160**  **18 is a relatively close number. It may be a**  **19 little low. I've seen numbers as high as**  **20 2,300, but I've never seen anything close to**  **21 7,000 hours unless a pump was -- I'm talking**  **22 about in most of the applications that we see.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 There may be pumps that are**  **2 installed improperly, that are left running**  **3 that shouldn't be without proper control. But**  **4 control is such an important part -- for**  **5 proper application.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry, I actually**  **7 misstated. It's for a water heating**  **8 application, not hydronic heating. Sorry.**  **9 So just to clarify, what we did**  **10 with the 0.57 terawatt hours that we think is**  **11 maybe more realistic is take the 1.7 million**  **12 shipments, 2,160 hours which may or may not be**  **13 conservative and use those numbers.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: How about I hear**  **15 from the industry reps, Mark and then Chuck,**  **16 based on Bob's.**  **17 MR. HANDZEL: So, just to explain**  **18 the 2,160 number that was used in the HI**  **19 survey. I mean, it was based on the members**  **20 of the circulator committee who, you know, we**  **21 all polled, we all discussed it and basically**  **22 we're talking about hydronic heating primarily** 

### Page 302

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 is the primary application where these pumps**  **2 are operating intermittently.**  **3 So those of you who have furnaces**  **4 at home, forced air, think about how often**  **5 your furnace runs versus how often it's not**  **6 running. So it's an intermittent service. Or**  **7 your boiler would operate the same way.**  **8 That's when your circulator would be running.**  **9 So, again we could debate this for**  **10 days, weeks, years. So the important thing is**  **11 to establish a number and just go with it.**  **12 But definitely it's not as big a**  **13 number as Alison just stated. And okay, maybe**  **14 2,160 is a little low but you're not going to**  **15 go much higher.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: She corrected her**  **17 statement. You want to comment here briefly**  **18 before I go back to the advocates?**  **19 MR. POWERS: Right. Flowserve got**  **20 involved with three individuals on the EU**  **21 study independent of the community.**  **22 One of them, there's a report that** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 was put together. It's about 40 pages. One 2 of them was one of our doctors of pump so to**  **3 speak. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: This is for the**  **5 U.S. 6 MR. POWERS: No, this is for the**  **7 EU. I'm getting back to trying to help 8 clarify some points in support of what you're**  **9 saying. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **11 MR. POWERS: Another one was a 12 technology professor, and another one is the**  **13 University of Darmstadt in Germany. We tried 14 to reach out. They put a report together.**  **15 Now, it starts on a lot of areas, 16 right? But one of the sections they talked**  **17 about was on the circulators they came up 18 with, to your point, 2,250. That was their**  **19 exact number. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: For a year of**  **21 heating? 22 MR. POWERS: For the circulator.** 

### Page 304

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: In Europe.**  **2 MR. POWERS: In Europe. Now, the**  **3 volumes are different, I understand that, but**  **4 the actual is 2,250. And they did break it**  **5 down, everything from the, you know, four**  **6 points across the curve because even though**  **7 the hours are run, there's different points**  **8 run and the hours and all.**  **9 And then what they also did is**  **10 they went into the terawatt, right. And so**  **11 everybody in the room as we all know may not**  **12 know the actual factors, but basically 10**  **13 terawatts is the annual output of one power**  **14 plant of nominal size.**  **15 So, they went into doing those**  **16 calculations and what the impact was. And**  **17 what it came down to was, getting back to what**  **18 Al brought up earlier, is the package is going**  **19 to represent more savings than anything else.**  **20 So on clean water pumps you may**  **21 gain X amount of, you know, a small amount of**  **22 improvement maybe on efficiency and stuff.** 

### Page 305

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 But when you throw in the VFD, you put in the**  **2 motor and you do these things.**  **3 And the same to the circulators.**  **4 You really couldn't easily break out the pump.**  **5 You really had to have it as a package because**  **6 of magnet factors and other things. And they**  **7 went into those actual hours.**  **8 So, we've got to be careful with**  **9 this data. And I'm not the expert here. I'm**  **10 reading what these guys -- went into a lot of**  **11 detailed calculation charts and they went into**  **12 averages.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to return**  **14 to it's either Louis or Gary.**  **15 MR. STARR: So, I guess a couple**  **16 of things. The overriding point is whether**  **17 it's 0.28 or 1.0, so there's your range of**  **18 what the terawatt savings.**  **19 If you look at the last column of**  **20 energy use you can see that the other pumps**  **21 that we're talking about, there's this RSV**  **22 that's at 0.8 and there's a VT-S. So it's in** 

### Page 306

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the range of where it's certainly worth taking**  **2 a look at.**  **3 You know, I didn't bring up too**  **4 much about the operating hours but I take**  **5 2,160 as accurate for a residential thing.**  **6 But you've got to remember this is a**  **7 commercial -- use in commercial applications.**  **8 Some of the proposed designs in**  **9 the future are to use these in all your fan**  **10 coils in commercial buildings instead of using**  **11 control valves. And so you're starting to run**  **12 4,000 hours a year, and then you're using part**  **13 of that time.**  **14 So there's other applications that**  **15 are using a lot more hours here. And I think**  **16 there's going to be a lot of uptake of these**  **17 circulators in the commercial market.**  **18 The other thing we haven't**  **19 addressed is anything in the industrial market**  **20 in terms of how those operate. And shifts are**  **21 using it really in a couple of shifts.**  **22 There's a lot of operation hours for these** 

### Page 307

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 pumps. And Patterson actually makes some of**  **2 --**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: For circulators.**  **4 MR. STARR: Circulators that are**  **5 for industrial applications.**  **6 But I mean, the main thing I think**  **7 is really that there is an opportunity for**  **8 energy use that's kind of the same quantity as**  **9 some of these other things.**  **10 And I think there really is a**  **11 great opportunity just in the -- you know,**  **12 when you're talking about a single-phase motor**  **13 this is where that big energy opportunity is.**  **14 When you get into a three-phase induction**  **15 motor you're getting 8 to 10 percent by having**  **16 a little better ECM motor.**  **17 But when you switch from a PSC**  **18 single-phase motor to an ECM motor you're**  **19 getting a big drop. And they've done this in**  **20 warm air furnace fans, they've done this now**  **21 in fans that are smaller than 2 horsepower.**  **22 And so it's kind of a natural place to go and** 

### Page 308

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 look for energy savings.**  **2 And I just spent last week at the**  **3 AHR conference. And everybody's got one of**  **4 these products and everybody's talking about**  **5 ECM motors. It's really the big product of**  **6 the future I think.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.**  **8 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary for the**  **9 California IOUs. To speak to Bob's point. I**  **10 don't think we have very much disagreement in**  **11 principle, although maybe the way the numbers**  **12 are put together needs some tuning up.**  **13 I agree in the residential**  **14 hydronic heating market the operating hours**  **15 are similar to the space heating hours. So**  **16 you're not going to get thousands of hours a**  **17 year of operating because you're just not**  **18 calling for heating that much.**  **19 Louis makes an important point**  **20 about the commercial market. That's**  **21 different. Out in California we don't have so**  **22 much hydronic space heating, but we have a lot** 

### Page 309

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 of domestic hot water circulation and**  **2 relatively a high level of commercial**  **3 application.**  **4 So if we look at the way these**  **5 things are applied in the West we get a higher**  **6 number of operating hours because it's not so**  **7 closely associated or so predominantly**  **8 associated with the residential hydronic space**  **9 heating application. I think that in part**  **10 accounts for part of the difference too.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, go ahead, Bob.**  **12 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from**  **13 TACO. My question to you is you talk about**  **14 domestic hot water circulation. Are you**  **15 talking about in residences, or are you**  **16 referring more to like hotels? I'm just**  **17 trying to understand where you're coming from.**  **18 Because I know that in the early**  **19 stages of domestic hot water circulation, at**  **20 least in the residential applications, there**  **21 were many times where they would be put in and**  **22 they'd be allowed to just run.** 

### Page 310

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 And over the years it's been quite**  **2 a shift in the marketplace as far as control**  **3 of those pumps. To the point where the people**  **4 now have proximity sensors in their bathrooms.**  **5 When they walk in in the morning it will run**  **6 their pump until exactly the water temperature**  **7 comes up to where the fixture is and it shuts**  **8 itself off. Or they'll learn your habits**  **9 where they'll run and turn off at the**  **10 appropriate time so that you're not wasting,**  **11 quote, "hours and hours and hours" of**  **12 operation on that pump.**  **13 I'm just trying to understand what**  **14 the market segment is that you're referring**  **15 to.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so this is**  **17 Gary. Just to respond to that, you're right,**  **18 there are very smart controls available to**  **19 save a lot of energy. Our observation is due**  **20 to the cost they're not often used.**  **21 I can cite an anecdote from**  **22 personal experience. My son-in-law built a** 

### Page 311

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 house a couple of years ago. And his domestic**  **2 hot water circulators, he has two of them,**  **3 operate 24/7. There is no control.**  **4 So, yes, those products are**  **5 available, but I wish they were more widely**  **6 used.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark Handzel,**  **8 thanks for being patient.**  **9 MR. HANDZEL: I'm sorry, Doug, I'm**  **10 getting a little antsy over here.**  **11 You know, first of all, I just**  **12 want to say as everyone has said and I said in**  **13 the last meeting we're not opposed to energy**  **14 efficient circulators. So, I mean we're --**  **15 but I just want to make sure. Louis, you've**  **16 been referencing this chart up here on the**  **17 top. And Alison --**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Page 15.**  **19 MR. HANDZEL: We're looking at**  **20 slide 15. I assume these are your**  **21 calculations.**  **22 MS. WILLIAMS: They're my** 

### Page 312

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 calculations and they're based on very**  **2 preliminary numbers. And I did want to go**  **3 through the shipments estimates and things**  **4 really before we looked at these.**  **5 MR. HANDZEL: There's a tremendous**  **6 number of estimates here.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, correct.**  **8 MR. HANDZEL: I don't agree with**  **9 your hours of operation. I mean there's just**  **10 lots of things.**  **11 You know, if Louis is going to use**  **12 the terawatts on this chart as a point of**  **13 comparison we've got to get this chart right.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. My intent had**  **15 really been --**  **16 MR. HANDZEL: And again, I'm not**  **17 disagreeing. ECM motors offer tremendous**  **18 savings. You've said a lot of right things.**  **19 But let's just get the data right before we**  **20 start running with it.**  **21 MR. STARR: Actually that does**  **22 bring up a question. When is an opportunity** 

### Page 313

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 big enough to go after? Because while, I mean**  **2 maybe these other pumps suck too, I don't**  **3 know.**  **4 (Laughter)**  **5 MR. STARR: I'm just thinking what**  **6 has to be a big enough pot of gold that like,**  **7 hey, there's a pony there in that pile.**  **8 Well, it's not cost-benefit. I**  **9 think it's -- isn't DOE something like --**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman, go**  **11 ahead.**  **12 MR. ECKMAN: I don't think the**  **13 table tells us anything yet with respect to**  **14 savings potential. All it just tells us is**  **15 some rough estimate of use.**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.**  **17 MR. ECKMAN: And so if Louis is**  **18 right and Gary's right and adding an ECM to a**  **19 circulator pump provides 25-30 percent**  **20 savings, whatever the number is, it's got to**  **21 be compared on a delta basis of use to other**  **22 potentials for pumps where the bare pump** 

### Page 314

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 improvement is in the range of you guys say**  **2 just when it's a bare pump. And that might be**  **3 1 percent, it might be 5 percent. I don't**  **4 know what the hydraulic potential for**  **5 improvement is, but it's not as big as 30**  **6 percent.**  **7 So, no matter what the usage is**  **8 the delta is what we're going to decide on.**  **9 And so, until we get information on how much**  **10 improvement is possible in any one of those**  **11 columns I don't know which one I want to cover**  **12 or not. Because I don't have any idea how big**  **13 the potential is for the cost of regulation.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, follow on.**  **15 MR. HANDZEL: So, along the same**  **16 lines -- Mark Handzel, Xylem -- you know, I**  **17 just want to point out if you go back to HI's**  **18 May 2 letter of last year we felt the extended**  **19 product approach had potential savings of 40**  **20 terawatts. That blows away any of the numbers**  **21 that we're looking at here just looking at**  **22 extended product.** 

### Page 315

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 So again, I think we have to come**  **2 up with a methodology that we all agree on for**  **3 calculating terawatts, and then look at each**  **4 of these methods to really see where the big**  **5 opportunities are because I just think we're**  **6 all over the place right now.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe in a moment**  **8 we'll let Alison describe how she derived the**  **9 content of this table. But Lucas Adin first.**  **10 MR. ADIN: Well, this is just sort**  **11 of a general point. But, so we've heard a lot**  **12 of comments about the energy use estimates and**  **13 debate about whether in fact it's -- the**  **14 benefits of going after these pumps with**  **15 respect to standards, the energy savings**  **16 potential and all that.**  **17 And I don't know that there's a**  **18 disagreement here about whether standards**  **19 should be pursued generally. I mean, I think**  **20 we've heard a lot of support for that.**  **21 The question that we're really**  **22 trying to wrestle with here is are we going to** 

### Page 316

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 try and address them through this proceeding.**  **2 And there are several other**  **3 aspects that we've touched on but haven't**  **4 really gotten to in detail that bear on that,**  **5 the more practical aspects. We kind of**  **6 touched on the test procedure a little bit.**  **7 But in many respects, at least**  **8 from my personal understanding, and I'll let**  **9 others correct me if I'm wrong, but**  **10 circulators are different in many respects, at**  **11 least the types that we seem to be talking**  **12 about than some of these other pumps in a way**  **13 that would be important.**  **14 It might add complexity to the**  **15 analysis that we do. There's a lot of other**  **16 data we may still have to collect. And then**  **17 there's potentially aspects of the test method**  **18 that may have to be written, or may have to be**  **19 evaluated in a different way. So those are**  **20 all things that we still have yet to talk**  **21 about.**  **22 And so I just want to make sure** 

### Page 317

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that that's clear. Those are things that**  **2 certainly DOE is thinking about as far as**  **3 whether this is really reasonable within the**  **4 time frame that we're talking about for this**  **5 rule.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **8 EEI. As a Washington, D.C. person who is used**  **9 to numbers being thrown around I just wanted**  **10 to say did you mean 40 terawatt hours instead**  **11 of 40 terawatts? Because 40 terawatts, it**  **12 would be like the peak demand reduction.**  **13 Forty terawatt hours is the energy saved,**  **14 okay.**  **15 Also, is that -- remember you're**  **16 showing pumps here of about 2 terawatt hours,**  **17 or 3 terawatt hours. You say 40. You mean**  **18 over 30 years, right? Over the life cycle of**  **19 the --**  **20 MR. CASE: It's 11.6 terawatt**  **21 hours per year using the extended product**  **22 approach.** 

### Page 318

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Is that the**  **2 annual energy consumption, or the potential**  **3 energy savings?**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Greg Case**  **5 speaking. Say that again, Greg.**  **6 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. When we**  **7 did our report we estimated just if we used**  **8 the MEI we'd have a 1.9 terawatt hours per**  **9 year savings, an additional 9.7 terawatt hours**  **10 per year based on the extended product**  **11 approach for a total savings of 11.6 terawatt**  **12 hours per year.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **14 MR. HUBER: Let me make sure that**  **15 you understand. When we talk about extended**  **16 product we're also talking about the**  **17 circulators and these motors that they're**  **18 talking about, and the controls. So we're not**  **19 excluding those.**  **20 But you can see the difference in**  **21 the potential savings is almost seven or eight**  **22 times.** 

### Page 319

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. But you**  **2 also said 40 so that's why I was asking.**  **3 MR. HUBER: He misspoke.**  **4 MR. CASE: We estimate by 2035**  **5 we'd be up to 14 terawatt hours per year in**  **6 energy savings.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, thank you,**  **8 Greg, that's helpful. And is that worksheet**  **9 in the docket?**  **10 MR. CASE: That is our response**  **11 letter to the framework document so it should**  **12 be in the DOE's possession.**  **13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Also, I add**  **14 another point. Getting back to this chart**  **15 again --**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **18 EEI. Again, if you're going to try to ferret**  **19 out different classes of products based on**  **20 their annual energy use or their potential**  **21 savings, for example, you look at Lot 11 VT-S.**  **22 I'm just looking at the thing. The range of** 

### Page 320

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 estimates is 0.05 terawatt hours per year to 2 0.18 which is a lot lower than some of the**  **3 other ones on here. 4 I'm not -- are you saying that**  **5 you're going to try to say forget about those 6 products because they're using so little**  **7 energy compared to the others? Again, I'm 8 just throwing it out there just to kind of**  **9 follow up the whole general conversation. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel, did**  **11 you finish presenting whatever you were going 12 to present?**  **13 MR. HANDZEL: I never started. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I**  **15 thought. 16 MR. HANDZEL: So I mean, what I**  **17 was asked to do is to prepare an overview of 18 circulators to try to level the playing field**  **19 of everybody's knowledge. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's do that.**  **21 Before you do that I'll recognize Joanna 22 because she's always patient.** 

### Page 321

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just**  **2 wanted to clarify, my understanding is the**  **3 numbers that Greg and others have been citing**  **4 is the savings from getting extended products**  **5 to be applied in applications where they**  **6 otherwise -- where the customer would not be**  **7 using an extended product.**  **8 And I don't think that's**  **9 consistent with your proposal in extended**  **10 products. I think that's a very different**  **11 concept than regulating extended products that**  **12 are sold that way already in the market. So**  **13 I just wanted to make that distinction.**  **14 Setting a standard for a pump,**  **15 motor and VFD that's sold by the pump**  **16 manufacturer today I think is different than**  **17 getting extended products in applications**  **18 where the customer otherwise would just buy a**  **19 pump and motor.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Is her rendering**  **21 correct, Greg? Did you understand it?**  **22 I thought Joanna was saying that** 

### Page 322

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 your estimate relies on a lot of extended**  **2 product applications where perhaps there**  **3 aren't any now. Is that right? Yes, that's**  **4 correct.**  **5 Is that how you derive your**  **6 numbers, Greg?**  **7 MR. CASE: That is correct.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: That is correct.**  **9 MR. CASE: We would get many new**  **10 applications using this extended --**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Joanna, that**  **12 was a very useful clarification.**  **13 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just to**  **14 -- I think when we say extended product**  **15 approach I'm not sure that necessarily means**  **16 something in particular. I think we all have**  **17 a common understanding of what extended**  **18 product means, but extended product approach,**  **19 I think there are different ways that you**  **20 could try to -- you know, you could set**  **21 standards for extended products. You could**  **22 try to encourage more sales of extended** 

### Page 323

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 products. So I just wanted to make that**  **2 clarification.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: I do want to hear**  **4 Mark since he's prepared some material, but**  **5 I'll recognize Louis first.**  **6 MR. STARR: I was just going to**  **7 clarify. I didn't want to really mention**  **8 this, but if you just take the whole --**  **9 evidently Alison's numbers may be -- but if**  **10 you just take her numbers, you know, 2.83, 2.4**  **11 and 3.38, you add it up, that's roughly**  **12 somewhere in the 10 range, or 7 or 8-9 range.**  **13 So that's all the energy that's being used in**  **14 Lot 11. So you can only save that much**  **15 energy.**  **16 So as a rule of thumb maybe 10**  **17 percent of that would be, you know, something**  **18 as a savings estimate. So I think that's kind**  **19 of --**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: So now let's hear**  **21 from Mark. Mark, you've got the floor for as**  **22 long as you want it.** 

### Page 324

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 How are you all doing? You want**  **2 to stand up for a minute? Let's stand up and**  **3 just stretch just for -- while Mark's getting**  **4 set up here. Don't go anywhere. Okay, we're**  **5 ready now. Go ahead.**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: So, just to again**  **7 explain what it is I have here. So, I was**  **8 asked to just provide an overview of**  **9 circulator pumps so that we could try to level**  **10 the level of knowledge that we all have about**  **11 these products.**  **12 And this is an industry**  **13 presentation so you can see I'm on a Hydraulic**  **14 Institute slide template. So the members, the**  **15 HI members who are here have reviewed this as**  **16 well as some others and they've been giving**  **17 input.**  **18 I can assure you for every slide I**  **19 show there's probably 10 or 12 different**  **20 points that somebody else could make. So I**  **21 don't know, I guess I'll allow questions if**  **22 you want to flag me down. If you want to make** 

### Page 325

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 points of clarification, or ask anything as I 2 can go through certainly we can do that.**  **3 So, as we've talked about going 4 along the Hydraulic Institute established a**  **5 circulator pump committee about a year or a 6 year and a half ago made up of the primary**  **7 manufacturers who I'll show a list of here in 8 a moment.**  **9 And one of our initial tasks was 10 to identify what is a circulator pump. And**  **11 again, it was a category that HI had really 12 not focused on. Go ahead, Doug.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we should 14 pause for a little bit. A few members have**  **15 left. Let's just wait just for a few minutes 16 until -- hopefully they'll come back.**  **17 Let me ask you a different 18 question. Alison, can you just walk through**  **19 the content in your table? Now that you've 20 got a mouthful of food.**  **21 (Laughter) 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you just talk** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 for a minute about how these numbers were**  **2 derived as something else?**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: That will be a long**  **4 discussion.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: It will be?**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: So I don't know --**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, longer yet.**  **8 Okay. Okay. Well then, let's proceed Mark.**  **9 Go ahead.**  **10 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So I'm not**  **11 going to read this definition that's up on**  **12 this slide. But you can see the main points**  **13 of this is that horizontal single-stage**  **14 rotodynamic pumps mounted inline.**  **15 And basically they're really**  **16 characterized by low head. They don't produce**  **17 a lot of head, meaning pressure.**  **18 And quiet and vibration-free.**  **19 These pumps primarily designed to operate in**  **20 people's homes and so the theory was you don't**  **21 want to hear it when your pump's running.**  **22 So the two common applications,** 

### Page 327

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 hydronic heating applications, and I'll show**  **2 an example of that just to explain what that**  **3 means.**  **4 And also potable water**  **5 recirculation. Potable water recirculation**  **6 primarily means where your -- I think Bob gave**  **7 an explanation of it. When you turn on your**  **8 faucet in the morning and you wait for hot**  **9 water there are systems available where you**  **10 circulate that water so you will get hot water**  **11 immediately when you open the faucet.**  **12 Go ahead, Gary. And I'm sure**  **13 you've got about three questions. You're**  **14 going to cover about four of my slides here,**  **15 Gary, so I may cut you off.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: I only have one**  **17 comment.**  **18 MR. HANDZEL: Sure.**  **19 MR. FERNSTROM: This is the**  **20 definition commonly associated with what we**  **21 might call residential application. But don't**  **22 we also use the term "circulator pump" for the** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 little bit larger pump used in commercial**  **2 building and hospitality, hotels, motels,**  **3 institutional applications to circulate larger**  **4 volumes of water at higher head for more**  **5 expansive buildings.**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: So the answer is**  **7 definitely yes but I have a slide on that so**  **8 we'll hold it for that. And if you want to**  **9 talk further about it then we can talk more**  **10 about it. Okay?**  **11 Just to give you a little**  **12 background. Why do these pumps exist? It**  **13 goes back a long way, but basically in the**  **14 nineteen thirties hot water heat was used in**  **15 homes and they didn't have pumps in the**  **16 systems. They relied on a boiler to heat the**  **17 water and the water rose by gravity because**  **18 hot water rises. And it would eventually get**  **19 to the upper floors of the home and heat it.**  **20 Some guys figured out that if we**  **21 put a circulating pump on it, a small inline**  **22 pump like this, you could significantly reduce** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the size of the pipe down smaller and also get**  **2 the hot water to the areas calling for heat**  **3 far faster. So it was a comfort improvement**  **4 that allowed these systems to be more**  **5 efficient and to work more to the creature**  **6 comforts, enjoy the fact that it was**  **7 environmentally friendlier.**  **8 So, I wanted just to show you some**  **9 examples of where circulators could be used.**  **10 So you can see this is an example of a small**  **11 residential system again. You would have a**  **12 boiler in the home.**  **13 You could have a larger**  **14 circulating pump on that boiler circulating**  **15 the water so that as the water went through**  **16 that boiler it would be heated.**  **17 You could have pumps out in the**  **18 system, circulating pumps out. And when it**  **19 says load, that would be like a radiator,**  **20 something in the house that allowed the home,**  **21 the btus to be dispersed into the internal**  **22 environment of the house.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 So this is an example of zoning a**  **2 home with circulators. There's a lot of other**  **3 systems where they don't zone with**  **4 circulators. They have one big circulator and**  **5 they zone with valves. So you can see these**  **6 valves, they would be controlled by a**  **7 thermostat in a room, for example, so that**  **8 when a room cooled off it would open that**  **9 valve, the hot water would circulate and be**  **10 allowed to distribute to the home.**  **11 So these are just some very basic**  **12 descriptions of a system. You could get way**  **13 more complicated. We could spend days talking**  **14 about the way circulators are designed in**  **15 systems. Go ahead, Gary.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary. So one more**  **17 question, and I'd ask Bob to chime in on this.**  **18 My understanding is that this**  **19 picture is indicative of the way they do**  **20 things in Europe. And your prior picture**  **21 where you showed individual pumps for each**  **22 zone is more representative of the way we do** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 things here.**  **2 MR. HANDZEL: Go ahead, Bob.**  **3 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from**  **4 TACO. I would tend to say that this is more**  **5 indicative of actually what you do see in the**  **6 states. Very commonly you'll find -- now, my**  **7 particular home is around 2,500 square feet.**  **8 We have one small 25th horsepower pump**  **9 circulating the water through our home. We**  **10 have three zones. Just, actually, one less**  **11 zone than Mark has in his illustration here.**  **12 The European pumps with that style**  **13 of application, these zone valves that you see**  **14 here are typically going to be opened or**  **15 closed depending upon the need for heat. And**  **16 they're either open or they're closed. They**  **17 don't tend to modulate to control anything**  **18 based upon a temperature in that zone. It's**  **19 either open or closed.**  **20 In Europe they tend to use more of**  **21 a modulating valve which is actually located**  **22 very close up to where the load is located and** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 it has a built-in thermostat within it that**  **2 allows it to modulate open and closed to give**  **3 you the heat performance that you need in that**  **4 room.**  **5 Hope that helps a little bit. I**  **6 just wanted to clarify that the circulator**  **7 pump doesn't necessarily have to be a large**  **8 pump on a residential application. Mine is**  **9 very small. And I'm in Rhode Island where**  **10 it's probably 6 degrees today.**  **11 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, so this is**  **12 Gary again. I just want to be sure that I**  **13 understand. You said in some situations the**  **14 valve tends to be open or closed and others it**  **15 modulates. Which is where? What does Europe**  **16 do? What do we do?**  **17 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour**  **18 again. Europe uses the modulating valve which**  **19 could be any degree of opened or closed.**  **20 Whereas the U.S. applications, North American**  **21 applications tend to be more of the zoned**  **22 valve approach where they're completely open** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 or they're closed.**  **2 And in some applications they'll**  **3 actually put -- some people have elected**  **4 instead of using the valves they could use as**  **5 Mark showed I think in the earlier slide they**  **6 could use separate pumps for each zone if they**  **7 elected to do that.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.**  **9 You all set? Okay.**  **10 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, and Gary, just**  **11 to follow up on what Bob said. We see -- for**  **12 many years we saw systems that were like this**  **13 that just had banks and banks of circulators**  **14 in the homes.**  **15 And originally the design was more**  **16 of zone valves. Then it went to circulators**  **17 for zoning. And now I would say it's moving**  **18 more back to using zone valves. Just because**  **19 it depends on the cost of the zone valves.**  **20 As you also could figure out some**  **21 big homes, bigger than Bob's, you know, you**  **22 could end up with 20, 30, 40 circulators. And** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 if you were designing this way it's a lot of**  **2 wattage.**  **3 So, anyway, every contractor has**  **4 his own preferred way of doing it and they**  **5 will sell the homeowner on what the best way**  **6 is.**  **7 So just to give you an example.**  **8 Here's a shot of a home with a boiler. You**  **9 can see there's some circulators here. So**  **10 each of those is pumping a particular zone in**  **11 the house.**  **12 The main thing on this slide,**  **13 obviously I listed the HI manufacturer members**  **14 who are part of the circulator task force. So**  **15 I think all but a couple are represented on**  **16 this team. So you have a pretty good number**  **17 of the circulator guys here in the room**  **18 already.**  **19 Sorry about this, it's a little**  **20 tougher to see, but we'll go through this in**  **21 a little bit more detail.**  **22 So one of the things that we did** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 on the circulator committee was to define more**  **2 specifically the types of circulators that are**  **3 sold in North America.**  **4 And we are not identical to**  **5 Europe. Europe pretty much it's all wet**  **6 rotor. It's all water-lubricated circulators.**  **7 We have three types here in the**  **8 U.S. And I'll go through some details here**  **9 and just show you a little bit about what they**  **10 are.**  **11 But obviously one of those types**  **12 is the wet rotor. So we do sell those here.**  **13 And that's what -- this is -- our designation**  **14 CP1 is basically a wet rotor. You can see we**  **15 call it a close coupled sealless with canned**  **16 motor.**  **17 What it's saying was saying canned**  **18 motor -- essentially what a wet rotor means is**  **19 that all of these pumps have to have some type**  **20 of lubrication. So what lubricates the**  **21 bearing? Well, in the case of a wet rotor**  **22 it's the actual system fluid. So it's the** 

### Page 336

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 water in the hydronic system that actually**  **2 lubricates the motor.**  **3 I'm not going to go through this**  **4 whole cutaway. I'm sure this deck will end up**  **5 posted. You guys can look at it in more**  **6 detail.**  **7 But essentially the shaft that's**  **8 shown in the middle has a hole in it, allows**  **9 the fluid to go back into the bearing and**  **10 lubricate the motor. So that's how it**  **11 maintains its life.**  **12 So, you can see we went through**  **13 and documented a lot of the bits and pieces,**  **14 the components in the construction. This is**  **15 actually out of one of the HI ANSI 1.1, 1.2**  **16 guide which defines types of centrifugal**  **17 pumps. So this nomenclature is being added to**  **18 that HI publication here as we speak.**  **19 Just to give you some**  **20 characteristics of wet rotors and just some**  **21 photos, just to show some different things.**  **22 Typical wet rotors in North America, they vary** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 from 40 to 240 watts. They could be**  **2 single-speed or they could have a multi-speed**  **3 switch. Lubrication system is the system**  **4 fluid as I mentioned.**  **5 You can see the flange sizes**  **6 really depend on the size of the system**  **7 they're being installed in and what type of**  **8 flange goes with them. But it can range from**  **9 three-quarters to one and a half inches.**  **10 And a flow range, about 130 gpm to**  **11 a maximum foot head of 55 feet.**  **12 So the second type of -- yes, go**  **13 ahead, Louis.**  **14 MR. STARR: It says 240 -- Louis**  **15 Starr with NEEA. So 240 watts which is**  **16 roughly one-third of a horsepower. But the**  **17 survey went up to 3 horsepower. So they don't**  **18 consider that a circulator?**  **19 MR. HANDZEL: So, there are larger**  **20 pumps coming onto the market right now.**  **21 Primarily European technology. Greg can**  **22 comment. He offers those pumps.** 

### Page 338

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 And typically they go up to about,**  **2 Greg, I think about 1 and a half to 2**  **3 horsepower, larger wet rotors.**  **4 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **5 Grundfos. Actually 3 horsepower.**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: Three horsepower,**  **7 okay.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.**  **9 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. The 40**  **10 to 240 watts, what does that refer to exactly?**  **11 MR. HANDZEL: That's the motor**  **12 output. The power it can produce.**  **13 MS. MAUER: Motor output, okay.**  **14 Thank you.**  **15 MR. HANDZEL: The second type of**  **16 product is unique to the North American**  **17 market, the category CP2. This is actually a**  **18 dry rotor pump which means that the system**  **19 fluid's not in the motor.**  **20 This particular design has a**  **21 permanently lubricated, it's a grease ball**  **22 bearing that it operates on. So we're not** 

### Page 339

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 circulating the system fluid in it.**  **2 This is a design that was**  **3 originated here in North America probably**  **4 about 10 years ago. It's not overly popular,**  **5 but it has some specific applications**  **6 primarily in a little bit higher head**  **7 applications.**  **8 So you can see a little bit more**  **9 limited horsepower. You can see the range.**  **10 You see the flow in head pretty closely**  **11 matches that lower range of the wet rotor that**  **12 we talked about a moment ago.**  **13 And then the third style is what**  **14 we call CP3. And this is also a dry rotor**  **15 pump. This is the antique in the industry.**  **16 This is the product that was originally**  **17 designed, circulators.**  **18 So it's dry rotor. It's a**  **19 flexibly coupled motor. Oil-lubricated. It**  **20 requires oil lubrication. So, typically a**  **21 homeowner has to lubricate this product once**  **22 or twice a year, or if it's a commercial** 

### Page 340

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 building they have to lubricate it.**  **2 So, again, it's a completely**  **3 different style, not nearly as compact, but**  **4 the original design. Yes, Bob, go ahead.**  **5 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from**  **6 TACO. Those flows and heads that you're**  **7 giving, those aren't necessarily the -- some**  **8 of those are very much on the high end of what**  **9 those particular pumps put out. I just want**  **10 to make sure people understand that.**  **11 MR. HANDZEL: Right. And you know**  **12 what, actually this is wrong because that flow**  **13 and head actually encompasses up to 3**  **14 horsepower. So this slide should say 3**  **15 horsepower on the upper end. Go ahead, Louis.**  **16 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA.**  **17 On these three categories of circulators you**  **18 identify, are -- I guess, I'm sure it's**  **19 different for each one of the companies, but**  **20 in all of those are ECM motors offered? Or is**  **21 it just primarily in the wet rotor side?**  **22 MR. HANDZEL: Coming to that,** 

### Page 341

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 okay? So, this was the slide I referenced**  **2 about applications.**  **3 So you can see I referenced the**  **4 two I originally mentioned already, hot water**  **5 hydronic heating and potable water**  **6 recirculation.**  **7 Certainly if you have a solar**  **8 thermal system where you're generating hot**  **9 water from a solar panel you're going to have**  **10 circulators of some type in the system.**  **11 If you're using any type of**  **12 geothermal system you're going to have**  **13 circulators in the system. So, they are used**  **14 really in just about any type of heating**  **15 application.**  **16 When you get into what Gary's been**  **17 referencing about commercial buildings**  **18 circulators could be used on small hydronic**  **19 heating zones.**  **20 They can be used on chilled water**  **21 systems as part of the chilled beams, for**  **22 example, which are a different way of** 

### Page 342

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 conveying cooling to a room.**  **2 We've talked about it before in**  **3 this group. The manufacturers, we make all,**  **4 they're all similar designs and we distribute**  **5 them. We don't necessarily know how many go**  **6 into a commercial building versus a residence.**  **7 I think we've talked publicly**  **8 before and said we estimate 70 percent are**  **9 used in residential and 30 percent are**  **10 commercial. Those are our best estimates.**  **11 Just wanted to give some**  **12 background too on the European market and the**  **13 European Union.**  **14 So, in Europe they chose to focus**  **15 on circulating pumps first. And you can see**  **16 they first started investigating or**  **17 researching circulating pumps in 1999.**  **18 And then the first index was**  **19 voluntarily agreed to by the manufacturers in**  **20 2005. And Greg, my dates may be off a year or**  **21 two but they're in the rough area.**  **22 And then you can see the official,** 

### Page 343

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 you know, the EEI level was implemented where**  **2 it became law in the EU in 2013.**  **3 So I guess my point with this is**  **4 just that they spent a lot of time working on**  **5 this, understanding the market, a lot of**  **6 research before they actually put legislation**  **7 into place.**  **8 And then the last bullet, just**  **9 pointing out again they only regulate wet**  **10 rotor circulators up to 2,500 watts in Europe**  **11 because that's all that manufacturers sell in**  **12 Europe.**  **13 So, energy efficient circulator**  **14 options. Louis, I think this is where you**  **15 were going before.**  **16 There's no doubt that every one of**  **17 the manufacturers that were listed on that**  **18 chart is bringing permanent magnet or ECM**  **19 circulators, motors with circulators into the**  **20 marketplace. So you can see some photos down**  **21 there on the bottom.**  **22 Acceptance hasn't been real** 

### Page 344

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 strong. I mean, it's picking up but I think 2 certainly we tried to -- just wanted to cite**  **3 some of the differences. We talk about the 4 European market being much larger for**  **5 circulators than what we see in the U.S. 6 We don't have any hard numbers.**  **7 The number the manufacturers always talk 8 around, they say that the European market is**  **9 10 times larger than the U.S. circulator 10 market. So it's a considerably different**  **11 overall magnitude, the number of pumps sold. 12 Also, a very small portion of new**  **13 homes that are built in the U.S. use hydronic 14 heat. I think the Department of Commerce**  **15 actually reports a number. They say like 2 16 percent or sometimes it's 3 percent of new**  **17 homes constructed are built with hydronic 18 heat. So it's not a rapidly growing type or**  **19 style of heat used in homes. 20 The debate we just got into about**  **21 hours of operation. We've already kind of 22 covered it, but really we just said U.S.** 

### Page 345

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 hydronic systems typically only run a small**  **2 portion of the year. And that would be true**  **3 whether it's in a commercial building or a**  **4 residential building.**  **5 The only difference may be**  **6 obviously a solar system, a solar thermal may**  **7 run year-round. So there's some differences**  **8 that you could factor in, but those are the**  **9 smaller side of the application scale. Go**  **10 ahead.**  **11 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.**  **12 Except for the case where they're used for**  **13 commercial cooling.**  **14 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I mean it**  **15 depends on the building. Like a hospital**  **16 typically might run cooling and heating at the**  **17 same time so there could be some big hours**  **18 there.**  **19 But you're right. Everything is**  **20 always it depends, okay?**  **21 Some last things. Electricity is**  **22 far less expensive in the U.S. than it is in** 

### Page 346

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Europe. And right now typically we're seeing**  **2 the cost of these energy efficient circulators**  **3 is about double what the traditional standard**  **4 induction motor circulator is. So, that's**  **5 certainly changing, that's evolving. I think**  **6 it will continue to change. But that's kind**  **7 of the state of the marketplace right now.**  **8 That was really all I had unless**  **9 there's any other questions.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **12 EEI. I appreciate that presentation and I was**  **13 wondering. The diagrams of the multiple**  **14 circulator pumps, I don't know, I'm just kind**  **15 of curious in terms of -- well, especially in**  **16 commercial buildings with multi-zone systems.**  **17 I'm just kind of curious about**  **18 diversity factors in terms of especially if**  **19 they have thermostatic controls and**  **20 programmable thermostats I'm just kind of**  **21 curious about, you know, it could be like**  **22 2,000 hours plus or minus 500 in certain** 

### Page 347

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 buildings.**  **2 MR. HANDZEL: Absolutely.**  **3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Or 4,000 plus or**  **4 minus 1,000 because of just diversity of**  **5 loads, or one side's on the sun so they're**  **6 getting the solar heat, so that's helping them**  **7 and the northern side is going to be more.**  **8 MR. HANDZEL: Steve, you're**  **9 hitting it right on and that's what makes that**  **10 question of how many hours do they operate a**  **11 year so difficult to estimate is that there is**  **12 enormous diversity.**  **13 It depends on the building, the**  **14 position of the sun, the way the system was**  **15 designed. How it's zoned could have impact.**  **16 So that's why I think you end up making a lot**  **17 of assumptions as you try to come up with a**  **18 number like that and that's the way it is.**  **19 If - I just wanted to add one last**  **20 thing. If anything you didn't get out of this**  **21 one thing I wanted to convey is that the motor**  **22 manufacturer is usually also the pump** 

### Page 348

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 manufacturer when it comes to a circulator.**  **2 So, we've been talking earlier**  **3 before about how some of us with our bigger**  **4 pumps could just sell a pump only. In the**  **5 case of a circulator we almost always sell the**  **6 motor with it and usually we make that motor**  **7 as well. So, the pump manufacturer is also**  **8 the motor manufacturer in this case.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.**  **10 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest**  **11 Power Council.**  **12 So, Mark, I think one more bullet**  **13 ought to be added there. They have cost, they**  **14 have a benefit which is to reduce energy**  **15 consumption. So that's the additional**  **16 benefit.**  **17 MR. HANDZEL: Yes and I think**  **18 that's probably a great point to make, Tom.**  **19 I think why would somebody use hot water. And**  **20 I think the simplest way to convey that is**  **21 that water is the best conductor of btus that**  **22 exists. It's far more efficient than using** 

### Page 349

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 air. You have far less losses.**  **2 So, I mean, if anything for us**  **3 pump manufacturers we think as ASHRAE 90.1**  **4 continues to define energy efficiency in**  **5 buildings and to push it further along we're**  **6 going to see more uses of water. Which I**  **7 think just makes this rulemaking even more**  **8 important.**  **9 MR. ECKMAN: The other part of**  **10 this, I think we as a group will struggle but**  **11 eventually get there. We just need to do the**  **12 math in the end.**  **13 What the potential is for these is**  **14 based on whether there's an economic return.**  **15 If they are double the cost how long does it**  **16 take to pay back that cost.**  **17 MR. HANDZEL: Exactly.**  **18 MR. ECKMAN: Without prejudging**  **19 what that answer is it's pretty hard to say in**  **20 my mind whether they're in or out. If I had**  **21 an answer I could tell you where I'd fall on**  **22 that question, but right now I don't have the** 

### Page 350

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 information in front of to me to make that**  **2 call.**  **3 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, and I think --**  **4 MR. ECKMAN: So barring that**  **5 they're guilty until proven innocent.**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: And we're not trying**  **7 to say they're not guilty. As Bob said and I**  **8 said at the last meeting we feel the market is**  **9 going to this no matter what. It's just our**  **10 continued recommendation is we do it in a**  **11 separate rulemaking because they're a**  **12 different animal and we're not quite as ready**  **13 with these as we are with the larger pumps.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.**  **15 MR. STARR: So, I think -- Louis**  **16 Starr with NEEA. So, I think I know from the**  **17 presentations, those are all wet rotors,**  **18 right?**  **19 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, they are.**  **20 Those are all wet rotors.**  **21 MR. STARR: And just another**  **22 thought too. Is it a question of time of** 

### Page 351

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 adapting your technology to the market? In**  **2 other words, perhaps 5 years is too soon, but**  **3 maybe 6 or 7 is not.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.**  **5 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour.**  **6 If I could answer that question.**  **7 There's going to be a great deal**  **8 of burden put on the U.S.-based manufacturing**  **9 community when we try to switch completely**  **10 over to the ECMs. If we tried to do that in**  **11 a 5-, maybe even a 7-year period we may**  **12 actually end up closing manufacturing**  **13 facilities in the States and bringing in pumps**  **14 from overseas.**  **15 And that, I can't stress how**  **16 likely that is. And I think the members of**  **17 this committee really need to take that into**  **18 consideration. Because you're not just**  **19 talking about a few jobs here.**  **20 Now, TACO as a company I can tell**  **21 you is working toward ECM. And I believe**  **22 Xylem is --** 

### Page 352

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HANDZEL: Every manufacturer**  **2 --**  **3 MR. BARBOUR: Every other**  **4 circulator manufacturer out there. But also**  **5 keep in mind, you know, as Greg mentioned all**  **6 those wet rotor-style pumps, those motors are**  **7 integral with that pump. You can't take that**  **8 motor off and replace it with someone else's**  **9 motor.**  **10 And when you get to the ECM side**  **11 of it it's really the controls that you add**  **12 with that ECM which is more the extended**  **13 product type of category is where you're**  **14 really going to get your advantage.**  **15 MR. STARR: Well, one thing to**  **16 consider too is that if you actually set a**  **17 standard then -- if you just had a base**  **18 standard of an ECM motor what it allows you to**  **19 do is create utility programs for things that**  **20 have clever controls and some other things,**  **21 some of the algorithms that are available in**  **22 some of the pump systems right now. So, you** 

### Page 353

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 actually stimulate more market push to those**  **2 things too.**  **3 But if you are not able to stay in**  **4 business in order to capture that then that's**  **5 a problem.**  **6 MR. BARBOUR: And we're seeing**  **7 that already, Louis, those utility incentive**  **8 programs. They're already in place in some**  **9 places. Right, right.**  **10 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour**  **11 again. One thing that we probably at the**  **12 company haven't done a very good job at is**  **13 working with people like the EENGO group here**  **14 to address the rebate opportunities that could**  **15 be placed even with the pumps that are**  **16 available today on the market with the control**  **17 mechanisms that have been developed by**  **18 companies like TACO and others to try to take**  **19 advantage of temperature reset based on**  **20 outdoor temperatures, various methods of**  **21 pumping control and zone valve control in**  **22 systems where you can conceivably cut down the** 

### Page 354

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 cost to the consumer fairly substantially.**  **2 I mean, something we need to look**  **3 at a little bit maybe for the short term until**  **4 the U.S.-based community is in place to be**  **5 able to really supply an ECM product line**  **6 across the whole population of product.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, did you want**  **8 to comment?**  **9 MR. POWERS: Yes. I think there's**  **10 two things I'd like to say. One is I think**  **11 there's a way you can get to the math that you**  **12 guys are looking for and I'd like to share it**  **13 with the industry, my cohorts first. Tonight**  **14 you guys can make some decisions on it because**  **15 they went into some pretty good detail on**  **16 that.**  **17 Number two, what Mark talked**  **18 about, up to 2,500 watts is correct in the**  **19 detailed study from the team we had and all.**  **20 But what more came out of it was**  **21 that what's unique in Lot 11 that people keep**  **22 referring to which is great, it actually --** 

### Page 355

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 the EU looked at energy improvement whether it**  **2 was a pump or not.**  **3 And what really came out of it was**  **4 the motors up to 200 kW, this is the actual**  **5 Lot 11, fans, water pumps and circulators.**  **6 And on circulators they bypassed**  **7 the housing industry and they went strictly to**  **8 only circulators for buildings. I mean, if**  **9 you really go into detail -- you know, we're**  **10 all pump guys. We only look at the pump side.**  **11 But if you really look at that Lot 11 they**  **12 were trying to broaden it.**  **13 And their primary definition was**  **14 the EU directive intends on products which**  **15 have a significant volume of sales of trade,**  **16 number of units. Number two, significant**  **17 environmental impact. Present significant**  **18 potential for improvement without -- this is**  **19 important -- entailing excessive costs or**  **20 payback that's beyond what the manufacturer**  **21 suffers.**  **22 So like the testing standard we're** 

### Page 356

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 talking. We talk it's an easy thing to do.**  **2 It might be easy for some of the larger**  **3 players here. If you get a bunch of the**  **4 smaller guys out there to upgrade a test lab**  **5 or take some changes could be significant.**  **6 And make sure it's an approved standard.**  **7 And they go on. And the last one**  **8 was a wide disparity of environmental**  **9 performance available in the market and**  **10 equivalent functionality. Because this is**  **11 standard stuff. We don't want to create an**  **12 environment.**  **13 And that's where they went into**  **14 that. And then they talked about circulators**  **15 and the products and more of the detail.**  **16 So I think what's coming out of**  **17 this is we're focusing on one area here which**  **18 is pumps. But they tried to look at it from**  **19 a broader scale to impact the whole grid.**  **20 But I'll share with these guys the**  **21 detailed calcs and some of the numbers the**  **22 teams went into over there. You know, give** 

### Page 357

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 you guys an idea as to an impact. Because**  **2 those numbers, the volume there like you said**  **3 is different but it may help you.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.**  **5 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary.**  **6 A strong point has clearly been made about the**  **7 industry impact and potential impact on**  **8 employment and so on associated with this.**  **9 I'd like to ask a question of**  **10 Lucas. And that is, I believe DOE is wanting**  **11 to make some kind of decision by the end of**  **12 this year. If that's done, how long will it**  **13 be until it's effective?**  **14 MR. ADIN: So really the question**  **15 is how long would it be from the date of**  **16 publication of a final rule for these products**  **17 until the compliance date at which they'd have**  **18 to meet that standard.**  **19 And the date that we -- or the**  **20 time frame that we had found in statute was 5**  **21 years. So, it would be 5 years from the date**  **22 of a final rule. So, assuming we publish a** 

### Page 358

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 NOPR by the end of the year then it was**  **2 another, I don't know, 6 months or so until**  **3 final rule. Five years beyond that.**  **4 MR. FERNSTROM: A follow-up**  **5 question. Is it within DOE's capability to**  **6 provide a little longer time in a unique**  **7 circumstance if the industry impact indicates**  **8 it will take more time to accommodate the**  **9 ruling?**  **10 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. I**  **11 can't answer that offhand. I'd have to look**  **12 at what the statute says. And I should**  **13 probably consult with my legal counsel on that**  **14 question. I don't know offhand.**  **15 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Well, it**  **16 seems to me that there's not a lot of**  **17 disagreement that this is an area that offers**  **18 some opportunity.**  **19 The issue really has to do with**  **20 the time frame and industry's capacity to**  **21 accommodate it. And maybe there's some**  **22 flexibility around how we deal with that.** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. ADIN: There's kind of two --**  **2 sorry to butt in.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, please.**  **4 MR. ADIN: There are two time**  **5 frame-related elements obviously, right? One**  **6 is the ability of industry to comply and the**  **7 time that they need to do that.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: And adapt.**  **9 MR. ADIN: And adapt. And then**  **10 the other is the time frame of the proceeding**  **11 itself and the feasibility of actually**  **12 considering these things, and writing a**  **13 standard, and doing all the analysis, and the**  **14 test procedure. So, from our perspective**  **15 obviously we're looking at both of those.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg.**  **17 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg Waltner.**  **18 Another question I'd add to the list is if we**  **19 were to set standards for a limited scope of**  **20 products in this rulemaking, could DOE**  **21 immediately or within the next year do a**  **22 follow-on rulemaking for products that we** 

### Page 360

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 hadn't -- or sorry, not that we hadn't**  **2 covered, but for product classes where we**  **3 haven't set a standard here. Could they**  **4 immediately be considered, or would they be**  **5 subject to the -- I think the 6-year period**  **6 for when you can reconsider standards for**  **7 products? So basically how soon could we do**  **8 another rulemaking for product classes where**  **9 we don't set standards here.**  **10 MR. ADIN: Right. My personal**  **11 understanding is that we could immediately**  **12 start a proceeding to look at those other**  **13 types that we didn't do, but I'd have to get**  **14 confirmation on that because I'm not 100**  **15 percent sure. That's a good question.**  **16 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers,**  **17 Flowserve. I think it's important to**  **18 understand the two variables. It's like**  **19 getting an order and getting revenue, okay?**  **20 The first one is quicker, simpler, but revenue**  **21 is a different story.**  **22 So in a way here the ruling** 

### Page 361

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 probably could be within a year you could add**  **2 one or two pumps. The question is that type**  **3 of product and what's involved, how long will**  **4 it take to make, nationwide make them all**  **5 impact so there's value-added.**  **6 Because as you change the kind of**  **7 products, you get into some of those BB2's,**  **8 some of those other as I call it big iron up**  **9 there, it's a whole different ball game. In**  **10 the cost development and the testing.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.**  **12 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour again**  **13 from TACO. I still think this particular**  **14 committee when you talk about the rulemaking**  **15 in total and the recommendation from this**  **16 committee that we shouldn't be walking away**  **17 from the multi-tiered approach to whatever**  **18 standards we do decide on as a group.**  **19 I'm talking about primarily on the**  **20 Lot 11 product line because I think that's**  **21 really what I recommend this group focus on.**  **22 But in Europe the way they did it** 

### Page 362

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 with, for example, the MEI of 0.1 and then an**  **2 MEI of 0.4. A certain number of years later.**  **3 I know that when we've talked**  **4 about that in the past there was some question**  **5 as to whether or not DOE could go forward with**  **6 a rulemaking based upon that type of an**  **7 approach.**  **8 But, I mean if necessary, if we**  **9 had to approach Congress or something to try**  **10 to get permission for that, I know that some**  **11 of us in the industry would be more than**  **12 willing to talk with our representatives and**  **13 congressmen if necessary to get that type of**  **14 thing put in place.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought at first**  **16 you were talking about phasing, but now I --**  **17 exactly.**  **18 MR. POWERS: Phasing is the**  **19 separation of the two.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, right. But**  **21 you're talking about tiering, predictable**  **22 tiering over the span of years.** 

### Page 363

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. POWERS: To try to achieve**  **2 different efficiency levels.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Steve**  **4 Rosenstock.**  **5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **6 EEI. To kind of follow on with what Meg was**  **7 asking, it really depends on all the other**  **8 things that DOE is doing, with all the other**  **9 rulemakings that they have and all their other**  **10 deadlines in terms of starting a new**  **11 rulemaking right after finishing this one for**  **12 certain pumps. I think that's also in the**  **13 background.**  **14 Technically they could but with**  **15 their resources, you know, who knows. That**  **16 all depends.**  **17 And the second thing to Bob is**  **18 there's been other rulemakings like with**  **19 clothes washers where DOE set standards for**  **20 2015 and another set for 2018. And boom, they**  **21 were done for that time frame in terms of the**  **22 rulemaking.** 

### Page 364

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour.**  **2 I'm pleased to hear that.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, I've**  **4 asked Alison to cue slides we haven't looked**  **5 at yet and to give us some explanation of how**  **6 they were derived. So, Alison.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I'm just going**  **8 to -- I was going to talk about how we derive**  **9 the energy savings estimates, but I think is**  **10 it helpful if we go through these three slides**  **11 with the pump types first? Just to clarify**  **12 what we're all talking about. Silence. Okay,**  **13 I'll go ahead and do it.**  **14 So, this slide obviously we've**  **15 seen before. It's what HI recommends and it's**  **16 what we talked about at the last meeting.**  **17 So then what we did with the next**  **18 two slides was make a crosswalk between the**  **19 additional pump types that DOE considered in**  **20 the framework document with what we think is**  **21 the appropriate ANSI/HI nomenclature for those**  **22 pumps and the diagrams just to make sure we're** 

### Page 365

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 all on the same page.**  **2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **3 Cappellino, ITT. Where it says -- in the**  **4 second row there it says OH4 double suction.**  **5 I'm not sure that double suction is actually**  **6 appropriate there.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, that was a**  **8 question that we got from manufacturers, that**  **9 some OH4 pumps which fall in the inline**  **10 category are double suction. And whether or**  **11 not they should be split apart into the single**  **12 suction in inline, and the double suction in**  **13 double suction. And there were differing**  **14 opinions on that.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **16 MR. HUBER: There are some double**  **17 suction inline pumps, but they generally are**  **18 larger. And the horsepowers would probably be**  **19 much larger than we're considering anyway.**  **20 But it's my personal opinion that**  **21 if you're going to put them in a category put**  **22 them in inline pumps.** 

### Page 366

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, someone**  **2 else had expressed the opposite opinion on**  **3 that so I don't know if anyone else wants to**  **4 --**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?**  **6 MR. HUBER: I mean, it's an inline**  **7 configuration.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.**  **9 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie**  **10 Cappellino. I've just never seen one.**  **11 MR. HUBER: We've got them.**  **12 MR. CAPPELLINO: You guys make**  **13 them?**  **14 MR. HUBER: Yes.**  **15 MR. CAPPELLINO: It's probably**  **16 kind of a unique animal.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.**  **18 MR. CASE: That style of pump was**  **19 added during the last HI meeting to the new**  **20 standard. And I can't remember where we added**  **21 it, but it was added. And I can get you**  **22 clarification on where we added it, if it's in** 

### Page 367

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 OH4 or --**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, you changed the**  **3 nomenclature possibly.**  **4 MR. CASE: We had to make a change**  **5 to the nomenclature to make sure that we**  **6 included it.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, we'll**  **8 follow up on that one.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me pause for a**  **10 second. How are you all doing? Do we need a**  **11 5-minute bathroom break, or are we okay to**  **12 just keep going? I know we don't have too**  **13 long, that's right. Another 45-50 minutes.**  **14 Okay, we're going to press on then. Okay.**  **15 MR. POWERS: I just want to make**  **16 one minor --**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **18 MR. POWERS: Sorry, Chuck Powers.**  **19 The description here does not match HI**  **20 completely.**  **21 So, the HI category -- I get the**  **22 DOE has some definitions they use which is not** 

### Page 368

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 as complete. But those descriptions are not,**  **2 you know, accurate.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: So I pulled those**  **4 descriptions out of HI 1.1- 1.2 where**  **5 available. So, I mean we can --**  **6 MR. POWERS: I just think if**  **7 there's words that are missing, there's words**  **8 that need to be added, stuff like that.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we've got it.**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so are there**  **11 any other questions on this page of pumps?**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: In particular I**  **13 think as was suggested by Charlie and Al if**  **14 there are any deviations from what's described**  **15 here that's what we want to uncover now.**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so this one**  **19 is -- the first line is another type of pump**  **20 we're aware of that could fall into either the**  **21 vertical turbine or radial split category as**  **22 it has similar bowls basically. And so we're** 

### Page 369

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 considering whether or not that should be**  **2 included in one of those other categories. As**  **3 far as I'm aware there's no ANSI or HI**  **4 nomenclature for this type of pump.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **6 MR. POWERS: Yes, sorry. If**  **7 you're dealing with an enclosed system which**  **8 is what you could have with radially split**  **9 vertical as we call it.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Guide us to the**  **11 line you're referring to.**  **12 MR. POWERS: That top line.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Top line.**  **14 MR. POWERS: It's going to have**  **15 what they call, you know, the older school**  **16 guys would call it a suction can. The API and**  **17 others which adopt it and HI and all those,**  **18 the double casing.**  **19 And those radials are very**  **20 high-pressure, very specific. And that would**  **21 fall under the VS-6 category.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, Greg.** 

### Page 370

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **2 Grundfos. I think looking at this diagram**  **3 it's something similar to one of the products**  **4 we make for machine tool applications where**  **5 it's immersed into the coolant tank**  **6 multi-stage and just has -- it's not a**  **7 vertical turbine, but it has a discharge head**  **8 and it suctions off the bottom with our**  **9 stages. But I don't know that it fits into**  **10 any of the existing --**  **11 MR. POWERS: But I don't think**  **12 what you make -- and I agree with you, Greg,**  **13 I don't think what you make is a radially**  **14 split as this shows up here.**  **15 MR. CASE: Charlie, don't you make**  **16 something similar to that? Or is it Mark? I**  **17 thought you guys were volume of stamp stands.**  **18 Mark, the top line there?**  **19 MR. ADIN: Greg, make sure you**  **20 turn on your microphone if you're going to**  **21 talk.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess, Mark, what** 

### Page 371

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 we're looking for is a description of that top**  **2 row. And whether this description is**  **3 sufficient.**  **4 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **5 Xylem. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to get**  **6 back to you. It's not in my core product area**  **7 so I don't know that much detail about it. So**  **8 I can't answer the question.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: So Alison, keep**  **10 going.**  **11 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Does anyone**  **12 else have questions about the other pumps on**  **13 this page?**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.**  **15 MR. CASE: I was just told we have**  **16 the latest version of 1.1. We will review it**  **17 tonight and get you an answer on what we would**  **18 classify that as if we've classified it.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.**  **22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so if no one** 

### Page 372

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 else has anything on this slide I just want to**  **2 point out this is the only place we have**  **3 axial-mixed listed. We have no data for those**  **4 pumps.**  **5 We understand that in the scope of**  **6 one to two hundred horsepower they're probably**  **7 a very limited subset of pumps. So I don't**  **8 know if we want to have discussion about**  **9 whether people are okay with taking them out**  **10 of scope of this rulemaking right now, or if**  **11 we need to have further discussion on these**  **12 pumps.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.**  **14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick**  **15 question. What's the typical application for**  **16 them? Are they large, industrial type of**  **17 applications with very high operating hours?**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: My understanding is**  **19 that they're large industrial, but does one of**  **20 the manufacturers want to take a crack?**  **21 MR. POWERS: Okay, I have to back**  **22 up and ask a question.** 

### Page 373

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **2 MR. POWERS: Are we adding all**  **3 these to the discussion as being part of the**  **4 agreement?**  **5 MS. WILLIAMS: So, this is just**  **6 setting up to discuss whether or not we want**  **7 to include them. So just to make sure we know**  **8 what we're talking about including or not**  **9 including.**  **10 MR. POWERS: Okay. So, to help**  **11 out. The VS-2 which you have up there is, you**  **12 know, HI and a lot of people would be a double**  **13 suction vertical that are used in power plants**  **14 or condensates.**  **15 You'll see them in some pipeline**  **16 applications because people don't like to use**  **17 verticals in pipeline and when they do they**  **18 have to go double suction for various reasons.**  **19 But they're in closed systems.**  **20 The bottom one has two**  **21 applications, answering Steve's question. One**  **22 is for power plants where they don't have** 

### Page 374

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 large tower designs. They have small low**  **2 draft fan-type towers. They need very low**  **3 head.**  **4 And they would be a large vertical**  **5 but they're 100,000; 200,000; 300,000 gallon**  **6 a minute type of products. Very large, you**  **7 know, these are 1,000 horsepower, 1,500, et**  **8 cetera.**  **9 MR. HUBER: Are you talking about**  **10 axial mixed flow products?**  **11 MR. POWERS: No, the very bottom**  **12 one there where it's the vertical.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: The VS-3?**  **14 MR. POWERS: VS-3, yes. Right.**  **15 MR. HUBER: It actually makes --**  **16 MR. POWERS: Right. And then the**  **17 other application is used for water flood and**  **18 some other rain drainage.**  **19 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber,**  **20 Patterson. The greatest use of them at this**  **21 point is either huge irrigation projects or**  **22 de-watering after a storm like in New Orleans.** 

### Page 375

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 And we're talking about the**  **2 majority of them are sold that are**  **3 approximately 100,000 gallons up to 1 million**  **4 gallons a minute. Highly engineered, highly**  **5 custom work. It has no business in this**  **6 discussion at all.**  **7 MR. POWERS: No, but that's what I**  **8 was trying to understand the process. Chuck**  **9 again. Is if we're just trying to answer the**  **10 questions of what are these I don't think**  **11 we've talked about what should be in it or**  **12 not. I agree with you, Al.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so -- sorry,**  **14 this is Alison. Just to clarify, there's no**  **15 other slides for axial-mixed so I sort of**  **16 threw that discussion in here for now.**  **17 For the others we do need to have**  **18 further discussion about whether or not**  **19 they're included. But if you guys want to**  **20 confirm axial-mixed exclusion now then we can**  **21 do that and move on.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, it sounds like** 

### Page 376

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 --**  **2 MR. HUBER: I'm fine with it not**  **3 being in there. I mean, it's just --**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, thank you.**  **6 Other -- yes. Is it on the --**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: It's on the -- yes.**  **8 So, if no one objects I'm going to put an okay**  **9 here.**  **10 MR. HUBER: No objection from me.**  **11 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, done. Okay,**  **12 so for the rest of these pumps I've just**  **13 described I'm going to go through some data**  **14 for them and we can discuss the hours and that**  **15 sort of thing.**  **16 And just before I do get into the**  **17 numbers I do want to mention that some of the**  **18 pumps that DOE considered for inclusion are**  **19 not necessarily because they have high**  **20 shipments or high energy use, but that they**  **21 are inherently similar to products that are**  **22 already being considered for coverage.** 

### Page 377

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 For example, the radial split**  **2 horizontal are very similar in some cases if**  **3 not nearly identical to the vertical pumps of**  **4 the same nature. And vertical turbines are**  **5 using the exact same bowls as the submersible**  **6 turbines.**  **7 So, I just basically I'm stating**  **8 this here that we'll go look at the energy use**  **9 numbers, but there may be some other reasons**  **10 to consider including or excluding some of**  **11 these just depending on technology and that**  **12 kind of thing.**  **13 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. The**  **14 statement about vertical turbine is used**  **15 exactly the same for submersibles is not**  **16 completely true.**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Some of them**  **18 do. I stand corrected.**  **19 MR. POWERS: A few of them do.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, so the next**  **21 slide is the shipments. It's all over the**  **22 place as you can see.** 

### Page 378

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 So, there's no existing sources of**  **2 data on numbers of pumps that are specifically**  **3 for clean water. So, we're for some extent**  **4 starting from scratch here.**  **5 So, I've listed three various**  **6 estimates that we can discuss. The range of**  **7 industry shipments is basically manufacturers**  **8 estimating what percentage of the market share**  **9 that they think they have. And so that**  **10 creates, you know.**  **11 And I should add that these market**  **12 share estimates on based on a variety of**  **13 things that are not necessarily unit**  **14 shipments. They could be value, they could**  **15 be, you know, the HVAC market including other**  **16 equipment than pumps. So it's really hard to**  **17 actually create a valuable estimate out of**  **18 those because it's so hard to get the estimate**  **19 of market share by shipments.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg.**  **21 MS. WALTNER: Sorry, that didn't**  **22 quite clarify for me what I guess the --** 

### Page 379

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: The range.**  **2 MS. WALTNER: Yes.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: So this column,**  **4 right, we gathered manufacturers' shipments,**  **5 unit shipments of their pumps in that product**  **6 category and then asked them to estimate what**  **7 percentage of the market they think they hold.**  **8 But they very commonly did not do**  **9 that by "we think we have 20 percent of the**  **10 shipments." They might think they have 20**  **11 percent of the value, or they might have 20**  **12 percent of the whole HVAC market including**  **13 valves and you know, other things. So there's**  **14 no really -- these are not necessarily very**  **15 valuable estimates, basically.**  **16 MS. WALTNER: And that's basically**  **17 their estimate of the whole market --**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **19 MS. WALTNER: -- based on their**  **20 estimate of what percentage of the market they**  **21 hold.**  **22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, it's just** 

### Page 380

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 their own.**  **2 So what we tried to do with this**  **3 in the next column is we took the shipments**  **4 that we collected from the manufacturers and**  **5 we asked a market expert to estimate what**  **6 percent of the market by shipments he thought**  **7 that the manufacturers we talked to had.**  **8 And that is where we got these**  **9 numbers in this column right here. Some of**  **10 them fall into the ranges of the manufacturers**  **11 and some of them do not.**  **12 And then the last column is sort**  **13 of a rough estimate. There are census**  **14 numbers. I know we've talked about this**  **15 before. HI does not agree with the census**  **16 numbers, but I'm just throwing it out here for**  **17 reference.**  **18 These do include not just U.S.**  **19 production but account for imports. And as**  **20 you can see, you know, there's potentially a**  **21 lot of imports coming in in some of these**  **22 categories.** 

### Page 381

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 So, none of these estimates are**  **2 really comparable. And I basically wanted to**  **3 use this to start a discussion hopefully about**  **4 whether this column has realistic estimates in**  **5 it or not.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: And then Lot 11**  **7 plus.**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry. I**  **9 separated this into the five pump types that**  **10 HI proposed for coverage and then the**  **11 additional ones that DOE has considered in the**  **12 framework document.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: And then did the**  **14 manufacturers, they also supplied the data**  **15 below the line.**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve**  **18 Rosenstock.**  **19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **20 EEI. And the -- where it says estimated**  **21 shipments based on census, I guess the other**  **22 one, these are domestic shipments, right?** 

### Page 382

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 These are shipments to U.S. customers, right?**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: So, the one in this**  **3 column is U.S. production.**  **4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right,**  **5 production, right.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: So.**  **7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then the one**  **8 to the right of that --**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: The one to the**  **10 right includes U.S. production and accounts**  **11 for both imports and exports.**  **12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: So it should be**  **14 shipments to U.S. customers.**  **15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So what**  **16 I'm looking at is for ESCC it looks like 90**  **17 percent of that type of pump is imports.**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So that's an**  **19 estimate. The census does not differentiate,**  **20 it just says imports of centrifugal pumps.**  **21 And we had, you know, a consultant estimate**  **22 that they're probably very small end suction** 

### Page 383

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 close coupled pumps. It could be an erroneous**  **2 assumption, but there's something like 1**  **3 million pumps being imported.**  **4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then for some**  **5 of the other -- Steve Rosenstock, EEI -- for**  **6 some of the numbers below like RS-V it says**  **7 2,280. It would say -- looking at those two**  **8 numbers it says most of those pumps are**  **9 exported. Is that --**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I don't know**  **11 that they're really comparable. It's, you**  **12 know, the one on the right is another estimate**  **13 of if you take all these pumps what percentage**  **14 do we think are clean water, which percentage**  **15 do you think would fall into the scope of this**  **16 rulemaking.**  **17 So, there's a lot of estimate**  **18 built into all of these estimates and they're**  **19 not necessarily like subtractive or additive**  **20 or whatever.**  **21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  **22 EEI. That helps to clarify but obviously this** 

### Page 384

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 does have an impact when we're trying to**  **2 determine like Louis is saying, well, kind of**  **3 how much domestic energy are we talking about.**  **4 And with these huge ranges for**  **5 some of these, wow. Hmm. Thank you.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: Agreed.**  **7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Rather**  **8 mind-blowing. Thank you.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just note**  **10 that now would be the time for industry to say**  **11 wow, you really missed the boat here, or**  **12 anybody else for that matter. Chuck.**  **13 MR. POWERS: Yes, I have a**  **14 question. That is who's the consultant?**  **15 Again, who's getting you this data?**  **16 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, I'm not**  **17 getting the data from a consultant. I'm just**  **18 having them estimate some percentages.**  **19 MR. POWERS: Who's them? One**  **20 person or 50 people?**  **21 MS. WILLIAMS: It's one person.**  **22 MR. POWERS: One person.** 

### Page 385

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So I mean,**  **2 that's why I'm having this up here for**  **3 discussion, right?**  **4 So, I mean, I'm particularly**  **5 interested in whether you guys think that the**  **6 numbers in this column have any bearing on**  **7 real life. Or if, you know, you can look at**  **8 some and be like that's way out of line,**  **9 right?**  **10 MR. POWERS: Where I have doubt,**  **11 so you at least say manufacturer reporting is**  **12 low and these kind of things.**  **13 But where I have doubt is some of**  **14 these products you're talking about here in my**  **15 view are not -- some of them are not in a**  **16 standardized design. There's some here that**  **17 get into more specialized case by case, right?**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you talking**  **19 about a pump type, or just the numbers**  **20 involved in any one row?**  **21 MR. POWERS: No, pump type. Some**  **22 of these pump types are, you know, Charlie** 

### Page 386

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 gets into it, we get into it, but I just, I'm**  **2 concerned about this one person coming up with**  **3 data that's going to affect the industry.**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: And that's why I'm**  **5 soliciting other feedback because --**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel,**  **7 you're next.**  **8 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I was just**  **9 going to point out that I think we've talked**  **10 about before that the Hydraulic Institute does**  **11 not collect unit volume data --**  **12 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.**  **13 MR. HANDZEL: -- from their**  **14 manufacturers. We collect sales data.**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: Which we still have**  **16 not received.**  **17 MR. HANDZEL: I can't respond to**  **18 that. I'm not sure who you asked for it from.**  **19 But so I mean, asking us our**  **20 opinion for it, it's very difficult for us to**  **21 quantify. I mean, if anything, you collected**  **22 data from each of us so you probably have a** 

### Page 387

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 better snapshot of the industry than any of us**  **2 have ever seen.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I mean what we**  **4 don't have, right, is what percentage of the**  **5 industry the people we talk to represent.**  **6 MR. HANDZEL: Right.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Like we don't know.**  **8 And so it's a hard thing to actually quantify.**  **9 So you know, if you guys don't know maybe you**  **10 have recommendations for other experts I**  **11 should talk to and get, you know, an average**  **12 of five people. I don't know.**  **13 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I think you're**  **14 going to struggle to find experts. Because if**  **15 they are experts they're probably an**  **16 ex-employee of one of ours --**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.**  **18 MR. HANDZEL: -- who may have**  **19 worked for multiple companies and things like**  **20 that. But this is a very difficult thing for**  **21 any of us to even comment on because we don't**  **22 know.** 

### Page 388

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **2 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **3 Let me ask you some specific questions here,**  **4 Alison.**  **5 This range that you came up with,**  **6 are you saying you went to manufacturers and**  **7 they gave you this range? Or one manufacturer**  **8 gave you the low range, one gave you a high**  **9 range?**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So we asked a**  **11 number of manufacturers how many shipments**  **12 they ship and what percentage of the market**  **13 they think they have. And so then we**  **14 calculated from that an estimated market. And**  **15 then we just presented the range across**  **16 manufacturers.**  **17 MR. HUBER: No, you missed it**  **18 again. First column. Where did the first**  **19 number come from? Where did the second number**  **20 --**  **21 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So, the**  **22 first number came from one -- you know, say we** 

### Page 389

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 talked to 10 manufacturers. And they all gave**  **2 us shipments, and they all estimated what**  **3 percentage of market share we have.**  **4 So for each one of them we can**  **5 calculate the estimated shipments as a whole**  **6 for that product class. And then I just pull**  **7 out the minimum and the maximum across those**  **8 10 estimates.**  **9 MR. HUBER: Okay.**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **11 MR. HUBER: So these estimated**  **12 shipments are really what they told you they**  **13 ship plus the market share that they thought**  **14 they had.**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.**  **16 MR. HUBER: And then you do the**  **17 math. And obviously whoever was on the**  **18 right-hand side has an inflated idea --**  **19 (Laughter)**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, no, they**  **21 could have a very deflated idea, right? If**  **22 you think you only have 1 percent of --** 

### Page 390

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. HUBER: I don't know.**  **2 Somebody's got it wrong.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.**  **4 MR. STARR: Is it possible to**  **5 maybe take this data and kind of do a**  **6 statistical analysis on it and try to figure**  **7 out -- not enough?**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, it worries**  **9 me just because the market share estimates are**  **10 so crazy, just like representing all sorts of**  **11 different things.**  **12 I mean, we could certainly do some**  **13 sort of analysis on it, but I wouldn't guess**  **14 that there would be any --**  **15 MR. STARR: Just looking at this**  **16 the most accurate data I guess is probably**  **17 RS-V because it's closest range. The amount**  **18 that they are is only a factor of three**  **19 different.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, but you don't**  **21 -- I mean, I didn't actually throw outliers**  **22 out I don't think. So, in the ranges.** 

### Page 391

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 So, if one person, one**  **2 manufacturer was totally off the --**  **3 MR. STARR: Well, I mean, if one**  **4 guy thought he was 2 percent of the market he**  **5 may --**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.**  **7 MR. STARR: His scaler that he's**  **8 using could get him off by quite a bit.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct, correct.**  **10 MR. STARR: So I think anybody**  **11 that had more than 10 times -- they thought**  **12 they were less than 10 percent of the market**  **13 then they're probably not accurate.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, keep going.**  **15 Follow on. Al Huber.**  **16 MR. HUBER: Were there any, and**  **17 we're not looking for names here, but were**  **18 there any that were consistent amongst the 10?**  **19 MS. WILLIAMS: Like any of these**  **20 product classes where --**  **21 MR. HUBER: All right, let's take**  **22 for instance, let's say on end suction close** 

### Page 392

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 coupled. Of the 10 were there any group of**  **2 manufacturers that numbers were reasonably**  **3 close after you calculated their market share?**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so let me -- I**  **5 will have to go back and check my data on**  **6 that. And I think that's what they were**  **7 suggesting is that if I just cut out the**  **8 people who probably have a very low percentage**  **9 and don't know we can readjust that.**  **10 MR. HUBER: I think probably we**  **11 need to re-massage these numbers and take**  **12 another look at it. Because I think you need**  **13 to throw the outliers out.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And again,**  **15 that's -- in the next column that shouldn't be**  **16 a problem because that's based solely on --**  **17 sorry, on this column I agree with you and I**  **18 will go back and look at the data in this and**  **19 see if we can narrow the range for these.**  **20 MR. HUBER: Okay.**  **21 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm just saying**  **22 that on the next column the outliers should** 

### Page 393

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 not be a problem.**  **2 MR. HUBER: Well, where did this**  **3 figure come from?**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: So, this figure**  **5 comes from adding up all the shipments that**  **6 the manufacturers we talked to reported to us.**  **7 And then my consultant estimated what**  **8 percentage of the market he thought those**  **9 manufacturers had for each equipment class.**  **10 So, yes. One person, one**  **11 estimate. Yes.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **13 MR. POWERS: So, if I can**  **14 understand the process better, I'm going to**  **15 make some assumptions.**  **16 One, there's very few**  **17 manufacturers that make all of these, right?**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So it's**  **19 accounted for separately.**  **20 MR. POWERS: So this 10 you had,**  **21 you may have only had 1 or 2 that only made 1**  **22 or 2 of these.** 

### Page 394

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. And so,**  **2 yes.**  **3 MR. POWERS: Okay, so that could**  **4 really skew it if they're, you know, not**  **5 accurate or whatever.**  **6 Number two, the influx of external**  **7 shipping outside the U.S. could be a huge**  **8 factor.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: From --**  **10 MR. POWERS: How much went here**  **11 and how much went --**  **12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So numbers**  **13 that the manufacturers reported to us that are**  **14 shipping outside the country.**  **15 MR. POWERS: And then another**  **16 question I had. When you sat with them and**  **17 you asked them the questions, and I hope that**  **18 you weren't just, you know, leading them to**  **19 the water, right. Did you say these are the**  **20 exclusions? Don't include any of those. And**  **21 these are the parameters. Don't just give**  **22 them 200 horsepower, but you say water pumps.** 

### Page 395

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 You said maximum this, 2 and 4 pole. Did you**  **2 give them that?**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I don't think**  **4 we requested the parameters, did we? So,**  **5 again, this data we're actually hoping to**  **6 refine. We sent out -- I should have stated**  **7 this earlier. We sent out a second survey.**  **8 We've obviously learned things since we first**  **9 sent out the first one. And in the second**  **10 survey we tried to be much more specific about**  **11 the parameters and that type of thing.**  **12 MR. POWERS: Okay, because in my**  **13 thinking, just one example. When you look at**  **14 temperatures of -10 to 120, right, the reason**  **15 that's proposed there is because of the way**  **16 the product is designed, not necessarily what**  **17 it's actually pumping. Right?**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.**  **19 MR. POWERS: Okay, you understand**  **20 that. So, when you go to them, you know,**  **21 telling them parameters, saying it's this box.**  **22 Not saying that this is the way we're going to** 

### Page 396

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 go out to review and these are the exclusions**  **2 and being a little more specific so it's not**  **3 just some marketing guy that's trying to say**  **4 oh, we're really big in the market, we're 90**  **5 percent and there's nobody else.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. No, I**  **7 understand. I don't think that is what**  **8 happened. But agreed, we were not specific**  **9 enough in the first one. I do think that most**  **10 manufacturers did consider those scope limits**  **11 when they gave us the --**  **12 MR. POWERS: It's not what they**  **13 considered. Did you say these are --**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, so and I'm**  **15 saying we did not. I agree. But in the**  **16 second survey we tried to be a lot more**  **17 specific about it.**  **18 MR. POWERS: Is that here, the**  **19 second survey?**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: No, we have not --**  **21 we don't have enough to aggregate yet. We**  **22 just sent it out a couple of weeks ago.** 

### Page 397

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **2 MR. HUBER: You sent it out last**  **3 week, right?**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: No, it was sent out**  **5 January 10. Right? Okay.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan.**  **7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub. It**  **8 was sent out January 10. It may have been**  **9 posted to the SharePoint for everyone to view**  **10 on the 22nd, but it was sent out to**  **11 manufacturers specifically.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **13 MR. HUBER: My suggestion is you**  **14 don't get into any of these calculations, or**  **15 any of these scope ideas until we get this**  **16 survey done and analyzed.**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. We felt**  **18 that we needed to provide something to the**  **19 committee to look at and so we did it based on**  **20 the data we have. And so we'll certainly**  **21 refine these numbers as we get new data.**  **22 MR. HUBER: Now, I'll give you a** 

### Page 398

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 for instance. On split case pumps or what you**  **2 call --**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: Axial split.**  **4 MR. HUBER: -- axial split if the**  **5 manufacturers put in fire pumps and other**  **6 things that aren't water pumps, and they can**  **7 do that.**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm pretty sure**  **9 that no one put in fire pumps.**  **10 MR. HUBER: Okay. Well then, you**  **11 know, I can't tell. I was trying to come up**  **12 with a reason why there's such a huge**  **13 differential between the census and this**  **14 other.**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, I**  **16 assume that my consultant assumed that more of**  **17 the census data was not clean water than what**  **18 was reported to us. So, yes.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm hoping if**  **20 there's anything to be said that's valuable**  **21 about this we should say it now. Chuck.**  **22 MR. POWERS: I'm going to try to** 

### Page 399

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 be really clear. If Lucas wants to have some**  **2 type of substantial completion -- I'll use**  **3 that good word because that's a good pump and**  **4 contractor word -- by a date this year we need**  **5 to focus on what makes the most sense. And**  **6 we're going to boil the ocean here if we're**  **7 not careful.**  **8 And the reason I'll say that, I'll**  **9 try to give a clear definition. Trying to**  **10 determine the quantity of pumps, you can do it**  **11 several different ways.**  **12 One, there is foundries around the**  **13 world that make certain stuff. We all go to**  **14 those same guys. You can go to them and say**  **15 what's your volume, what's your weight. You**  **16 can do a reverse calculation on that factor,**  **17 right?**  **18 Another way is to say I know what**  **19 I make, I know what I ship. And I'll look at**  **20 some of these numbers and I go, really.**  **21 Because if my number, you know, is**  **22 equal to one of these numbers and you're** 

### Page 400

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 showing this is the number by 10 guys I'm**  **2 saying hmm, something is broken here.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: Obviously 10 was**  **4 just a number I threw out. There's any number**  **5 of --**  **6 MR. POWERS: Oh, I know. I'm just**  **7 --**  **8 MS. WILLIAMS: Agreed, though.**  **9 MR. POWERS: So what I do know is**  **10 when we focus on this range that EU has done**  **11 100 reports and been at it a lot longer, we**  **12 all talked about. And when you focus on**  **13 circulators if that ends up being in this.**  **14 There's three or four players here in the room**  **15 that are the gorillas. You may have a bunch**  **16 of other guys but they're really small, you**  **17 know.**  **18 You know what I mean? There's a**  **19 way to look at this to say what makes the most**  **20 sense. Let's get something done and not go**  **21 somewhere.**  **22 Because some of these other** 

### Page 401

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 products you mention here, they -- a lot of**  **2 them don't deal with water.**  **3 MS. WILLIAMS: Some percentage,**  **4 right.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Alison, would**  **6 it be productive to go to the next table?**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, if no**  **8 one -- what I was hoping to do was perhaps**  **9 refine the shipments estimates and then move**  **10 on. But we'll just go with what I have and**  **11 hope they're correct.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.**  **13 MR. STARR: So, I have a**  **14 suggestion to maybe tighten up your numbers.**  **15 Maybe through a non-disclosure act with**  **16 individual manufacturers in this room you**  **17 could have a private discussion about where**  **18 the numbers are messed up.**  **19 Perhaps some of the information**  **20 that they know about their shipments can help**  **21 inform where there might be problems in your**  **22 chart here. So, I don't know.** 

### Page 402

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 That would maybe -- that way it**  **2 would help you focus. Because if you don't**  **3 know --**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.**  **5 MR. STARR: -- if they have a**  **6 likely idea where the problems are. If you**  **7 hear three different people say there's**  **8 problems in a given area then you might likely**  **9 be a problem in that area and focus more of**  **10 your effort there.**  **11 MR. POWERS: And then one last**  **12 comment, Alison, just to help.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **14 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers again,**  **15 is -- and I try to stress it. When you go to**  **16 this chart you don't have the HI nomenclature.**  **17 Just bear with me.**  **18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I'll add those**  **19 in there.**  **20 MR. POWERS: Well, what's**  **21 important about it, the DS, the double suction**  **22 as you call it, if they weren't given the** 

### Page 403

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 parameters and they were given that and**  **2 they're trying to guess what that was -- just**  **3 bear with me --**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: No, I believe we**  **5 gave the manufacturers a crosswalk when we**  **6 solicited this data from them. So they had**  **7 the crosswalk available.**  **8 MR. POWERS: Okay, but my point is**  **9 when you look at double suction you have it**  **10 for two types of products where HI might, you**  **11 know, list it specifically if you go back one**  **12 more slide.**  **13 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So that's**  **14 where this came from actually is in the**  **15 interviews. Some manufacturers were like oh,**  **16 is it really just BB1? What about these OH4?**  **17 So in the original crosswalk it**  **18 was only BB1 and this is only in here to**  **19 clarify what we learned from the manufacturers**  **20 during the interviews. So that's what I said,**  **21 these are some of the points that as we move**  **22 towards HI nomenclature it's helpful to get** 

### Page 404

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 those nailed down so we actually know what**  **2 we're talking about.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you scan -- on**  **4 slide 13 can you scan through the distribution**  **5 of pump sizes listed there? Since many of you**  **6 are the major pump manufacturers can you say**  **7 whether these are way off, or whether they're**  **8 representative? Can you comment on slide 13?**  **9 Charlie.**  **10 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie**  **11 Cappellino with ITT. We've done studies**  **12 before more broadly across a wide variety of**  **13 pump types. I would say the distribution you**  **14 have here is reasonably accurate, that there's**  **15 kind of a sweet spot in that 5 to 25, 3 to 25**  **16 horsepower range when you look at general**  **17 applications.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: I would note, Greg,**  **19 you're nodding your head. Do you wish to**  **20 contribute to the record?**  **21 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley,**  **22 Grundfos. No, I agree with Charlie that just** 

### Page 405

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 looking at the distribution on those slides,**  **2 it doesn't look bad.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Mark**  **4 Handzel.**  **5 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from**  **6 Xylem. I would agree too. I think of all the**  **7 charts we've looked at this one probably has**  **8 it right.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, good.**  **10 (Laughter)**  **11 MR. HANDZEL: Well, it's just a**  **12 good representation of, you know, I mean**  **13 knowing where our most popular sizes are, what**  **14 horsepowers they use, it pretty closely**  **15 matches what's shown on this chart.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: And I presume the**  **17 blacked out is because you don't have enough**  **18 data, is that correct?**  **19 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. We don't**  **20 have enough to aggregate and report.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **22 MS. WILLIAMS: And again we've** 

### Page 406

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 asked for it. We're hoping to get enough in**  **2 the next round.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.**  **4 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie**  **5 again. I just assume this is number of units,**  **6 is that correct?**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **8 MR. CAPPELLINO: We had to clarify**  **9 that.**  **10 MR. POWERS: I would challenge**  **11 some of this because the double suction,**  **12 again, your broad range, zero percent over 500**  **13 horsepower is probably not accurate.**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, that could be**  **15 that people did not report to us. So, it's a**  **16 legitimate point.**  **17 MR. POWERS: I would also go, and**  **18 I went further and calculated on your next**  **19 sheet your number bases, the part that gets**  **20 confusing is 1 to 3 and then 3 to 10. You**  **21 probably mean to say over 3 to 10 because then**  **22 you're mixing the two together.** 

### Page 407

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 When I did my calculations they**  **2 didn't come out like yours and you knew**  **3 assumptions that I didn't know. Skewing the**  **4 data.**  **5 MS. WILLIAMS: We clarified that**  **6 in the second survey as well, so I apologize**  **7 for that.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.**  **9 MR. HANDZEL: Alison, this is just**  **10 like one typical year? Mark Handzel from**  **11 Xylem.**  **12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, one year, yes.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: And what about then**  **14 -- that's a useful comment. What about 14?**  **15 What would you say about connected load by**  **16 horsepower?**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: So, maybe we'll --**  **18 well, we could skip to the next slide and go**  **19 through the calculation of connected load**  **20 first if that's helpful.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I was**  **22 just doing.** 

### Page 408

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: No, I'm on 15**  **2 because --**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, on 15, okay.**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: So, these numbers**  **5 again are super rough estimates. We took the**  **6 best estimate shipments, used the manufacturer**  **7 data we collected to develop a weighted**  **8 average horsepower between one and two hundred**  **9 for that equipment class. And then multiplied**  **10 those together to get the connected load for**  **11 one year of shipments.**  **12 I will acknowledge that we're not**  **13 positive what horsepower the manufacturers**  **14 were reporting, whether they were shaft power,**  **15 hydraulic power, or motor horsepower in all**  **16 cases. So that's something else that's being**  **17 refined in the second survey. So there's**  **18 probably some issues there.**  **19 So that gives us connected load.**  **20 I have two estimates. The other one we took**  **21 the median shaft power horsepower based on the**  **22 HI survey for model availability. So just to** 

### Page 409

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 give a couple of different estimates of how**  **2 big we think these might be.**  **3 And then to estimate the annual**  **4 energy used for year of shipments we're**  **5 estimating a percent load based on assumed**  **6 average flow of 50 percent. So, it's 74**  **7 percent power.**  **8 The hours of operation in column A**  **9 are from a consultant based on hours of**  **10 operation per application and the distribution**  **11 of applications per product class. And then**  **12 the second column is directly what the EU used**  **13 for their estimates. So they may or may not**  **14 be representative of U.S. use.**  **15 And so we used those to calculate**  **16 two different annual energy use numbers for a**  **17 year of shipments. So, questions, concerns?**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Foster.**  **19 MR. FOSTER: Steve Rosenstock had**  **20 to leave and he asked me to make this comment**  **21 when we came to this slide. While we**  **22 recognize that the overwhelming majority of** 

### Page 410

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 pumps shipped are electrically driven there**  **2 are gas-driven products too.**  **3 So we're not trying to make a big**  **4 issue out of it. We'd like to make sure that**  **5 the gas input is also included in the final**  **6 analysis.**  **7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So we didn't**  **8 collect any data on pumps driven with engines.**  **9 We have asked for it in the second survey. So**  **10 far we have not received any information on**  **11 those. So if we do get such data we can**  **12 consider it.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel. Yes,**  **14 I think we heard in the first meeting**  **15 something like 99 percent -- I think this is**  **16 what I heard -- were powered electrically, by**  **17 electric motors.**  **18 MR. HANDZEL: Especially with fire**  **19 pumps excluded.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **22 MR. POWERS: And I think when you** 

### Page 411

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 go to slide 18 we're going to have a good**  **2 discussion on that one.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Chuck.**  **4 And now, additional comments on this, on slide**  **5 15. Do we have anything additional here? Al.**  **6 MR. HUBER: Where did you get this**  **7 average percent --**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.**  **9 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, it's totally**  **10 made up. I had to do a quick calculation. So**  **11 we have a lot of data to work on the energy**  **12 use estimates and we'll work on a better**  **13 estimate of the percent load.**  **14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.**  **15 How are you intending to do that? What's**  **16 going to be the better calculation?**  **17 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I mean we're**  **18 collecting load profiles for commercial**  **19 buildings. We're collecting, you know, we're**  **20 trying to collect actual data that will help**  **21 us pair duty points with pumps that are in the**  **22 application and determine where they fall on** 

### Page 412

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 their operation.**  **2 MR. HUBER: How large a variation**  **3 of applications are you doing? Are you doing**  **4 very, very small samples and then**  **5 extrapolating this general --**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I mean what**  **7 we're trying to do, and we can talk about this**  **8 later. It's probably a longer conversation.**  **9 But we are trying to do commercial building**  **10 simulations for that application.**  **11 We have some data for agriculture**  **12 from the FRIS, Federal -- I don't remember**  **13 what it stands for. Something irrigation.**  **14 Farm and Ranch Irrigation Survey. That's a**  **15 U.S. national thing.**  **16 And we also have a large database**  **17 from a utility on agricultural applications.**  **18 The same utility provided a municipal**  **19 database, and we have very limited data on**  **20 industrial applications at the moment.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.**  **22 MR. HUBER: So you're going to** 

### Page 413

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 combine all of those?**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: So, typically in**  **3 our analyses we'll look at those sectors**  **4 separately throughout like the LCC and the**  **5 national energy savings. And then, yes, we'll**  **6 aggregate them into one number. That's the**  **7 goal.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Al**  **9 first, followed by Alison. Now to Louis.**  **10 MR. STARR: So, I think the**  **11 Department of Energy does a lot of funding**  **12 with ASHRAE. They have that diversity of what**  **13 those VFDs are for the -- they have -- there**  **14 at PNNL, they have 16 prototypes.**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So we are**  **16 using the NREL data set or building set for**  **17 the commercial building simulations. I'm**  **18 having some problems with them so I need to**  **19 check in on that, but.**  **20 MR. STARR: And then the other**  **21 thing is is I think we actually have, and we**  **22 use some kind of industrial -- we have this** 

### Page 414

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 percent thing. I don't know, it's not split**  **2 out by pumps but it has something else for**  **3 different equipment that we have in the**  **4 Northwest which maybe you could use some of**  **5 that data as well.**  **6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?**  **8 MR. CAPPELLINO: I think I missed**  **9 it. Could you explain --**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Is your mike on?**  **11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Could you explain**  **12 connected load A column versus connected load**  **13 B column again?**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So I just**  **15 used two different estimates of what the**  **16 average horsepower might be. One is from the**  **17 manufacturer data that we collected, a**  **18 shipment weighted average of that, and the**  **19 other is a median shaft power from the HI**  **20 database of pump efficiency that was provided**  **21 to us.**  **22 So, the reason we did two was** 

### Page 415

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 because some of these weighted average**  **2 manufacturer data ones don't have very many**  **3 manufacturers reporting and so we're not sure**  **4 if they're really representative.**  **5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.**  **7 MR. POWERS: So, if I can**  **8 understand, Alison. And I think what you're**  **9 trying to do is excellent in trying to**  **10 understand the data.**  **11 So, if I just take one and go**  **12 across. So, the 134 comes from this report by**  **13 one consultant and --**  **14 MS. WILLIAMS: No, it comes from**  **15 multiple manufacturers with an estimate by one**  **16 consultant.**  **17 MR. POWERS: Okay. But it was**  **18 enough that you had to send out a second**  **19 survey. So, 134 is questionable.**  **20 MS. WILLIAMS: So --**  **21 MR. POWERS: Let me finish. The**  **22 weighted average is a few people, and I agree** 

### Page 416

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 it may not be enough.**  **2 You go across to the average**  **3 percent load and you said you took a swag.**  **4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.**  **5 MR. POWERS: I look at estimated**  **6 number of hours and 1,913 and we know that**  **7 total hours is 8,760 a year. And my**  **8 calculation doesn't come out to the 1.44 on**  **9 terawatts but that just could be because of**  **10 the way I'm looking at it. So, we need more**  **11 analysis and data to understand it.**  **12 But what interests me is it**  **13 doesn't really matter what's in the above**  **14 group because we're saying we want to apply a**  **15 policy towards those. It's more important to**  **16 say this data which you have blanks in because**  **17 you don't have enough feedback, I understand,**  **18 is where we need to maybe put a little more**  **19 focus.**  **20 But those numbers may not be as**  **21 big and maybe that's why the EU, some reports**  **22 I have, shows that it may not have been enough** 

### Page 417

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 value to make a difference, right?**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. I mean,**  **3 that's -- we put them both in here so we could**  **4 compare the ones for discussion with the ones**  **5 that have been pretty much agreed to. So**  **6 people would have some point of reference.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: In my experience**  **8 doing many, many years of Department of Energy**  **9 appliance standards shipments is always the**  **10 toughest. It's always, always, always.**  **11 And so that's why the analysts,**  **12 the consultant team, they turn cartwheels**  **13 trying to figure out some way to make**  **14 representations.**  **15 And then based on your input, this**  **16 next survey, whatever else that they can**  **17 cobble together will continue to refine these**  **18 analyses.**  **19 MR. POWERS: And then one last**  **20 question. This is Chuck.**  **21 On the next slide you presented to**  **22 us you said the HI data was 2,160 and you felt** 

### Page 418

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 it was higher than that.**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, I'm not saying**  **3 that we feel that. I'm just saying when we**  **4 collected some additional estimates from**  **5 manufacturers since then -- I had another**  **6 sheet somewhere, but there were some estimates**  **7 that were more in the range of 3,000.**  **8 And then some people's estimates**  **9 for hydronic heating are higher and so it**  **10 depends also on the segmentation of hydronic**  **11 heating and potable water applications.**  **12 We do think we'll be getting the**  **13 data to be able to disaggregate that based on**  **14 model type. And so we do hope to have that**  **15 done at some point.**  **16 MR. POWERS: Okay. So, but when I**  **17 go back to your previous sheet you're showing**  **18 1,930 and 2,188.**  **19 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, yes. So those**  **20 are not -- so, the 2,160 was from the HI**  **21 circulator-specific survey. So, we don't have**  **22 any HI estimates as far as I know for the** 

### Page 419

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 hours of operation for these pumps on slide**  **2 15.**  **3 MR. POWERS: Okay. Because, I**  **4 mean just going by my own experience being in**  **5 the field a whole lot like if you take the**  **6 VT-S submersible 4- and 6-inch if it's on --**  **7 usually they're not running 24 hours a day.**  **8 They're either a partial growing season thing**  **9 for 3 months a year, or they're on a booster**  **10 system that pressures up and the normalizes,**  **11 et cetera, and runs. Storage tank and those**  **12 run.**  **13 And I'm just going to take a guess**  **14 because I've been responsible for operating**  **15 systems and running things and I've seen the**  **16 submersibles run about 10 percent of the day.**  **17 That's my best recommended term. I'm saying,**  **18 some run longer, but about 10 percent of the**  **19 24 a day.**  **20 So again, if you have, you know,**  **21 even go as high as one-tenth of the 8,700**  **22 hours, you know, the 1,500 you have here on** 

### Page 420

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that sheet just seems to me to be --**  **2 MS. WILLIAMS: A little high.**  **3 Okay.**  **4 MR. POWERS: -- high. Again, I'm**  **5 just looking at -- I'm trying to pinpoint**  **6 something that I can -- again, I can say**  **7 submersible, okay. Six inch, booster systems,**  **8 whatever. Fifteen hundred hours seems to be**  **9 excessive.**  **10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.**  **11 MR. POWERS: But it also**  **12 calculated out to be a very, very low annual**  **13 energy. Well, not very low but one of the**  **14 lower numbers.**  **15 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts.**  **17 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American**  **18 Water. I just wanted to comment about the**  **19 submersibles. In the water industry though**  **20 they would be running most of the day. So**  **21 that's a different use. But in the water**  **22 industry we'd be running them around the** 

### Page 421

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 clock.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I want to take**  **3 final comments and very quickly because we**  **4 have about 5 more minutes. Then I want to cue**  **5 up a few things for tomorrow. Tom, you have**  **6 a final comment?**  **7 MR. ECKMAN: Based on the metered**  **8 use we've got the irrigation systems in the**  **9 Northwest are running between 1,500 and 2,000**  **10 hours depending on the crop and location. And**  **11 those are some submersibles, some are direct**  **12 pulling from a canal. So the lift isn't much**  **13 but they're running center pivots, making most**  **14 of the McDonald's potatoes in the country, so.**  **15 Three months. Depends on what the crop is.**  **16 They're 24/7. Once they're on they water till**  **17 there's no evaporation left.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we're**  **19 shifting gears now as we think about tomorrow**  **20 just for a change of scene here.**  **21 First of all, we had a very, very**  **22 productive day. We covered a lot of ground.** 

### Page 422

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 I'm very impressed by your stamina. Well**  **2 done. We really did very well.**  **3 We spent a fair amount of time**  **4 going over possible definitions and the**  **5 general description of pump components. I'm**  **6 not sure we'll get full closure on that**  **7 tomorrow, maybe that's not necessary.**  **8 But also I'd refer you to page 5**  **9 in your handout. Please look at that.**  **10 This I believe represents kind of**  **11 our standing hypothesis surrounding the scope**  **12 of negotiation. It's just a hypothesis that**  **13 maybe the stuff in green which is HI's**  **14 proposal I think predominantly if not**  **15 completely is one aspect of the potential**  **16 scope.**  **17 And then the maybes you see in**  **18 yellow. And I think we've largely confirmed**  **19 the reds as being nos, although that's subject**  **20 to further discussion and confirmation, I**  **21 presume.**  **22 We've also done well in kind of** 

### Page 423

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 globally describing the exclusions and the**  **2 parameters. Perhaps both of those need more**  **3 specific definitions. And I'm not sure we'll**  **4 get to those tomorrow.**  **5 But tomorrow we do hope to see if**  **6 we can get a better sense of scope. And**  **7 somehow that we can describe scope so that it**  **8 informs our sense of the duration of the**  **9 negotiation and also what would be included,**  **10 for example, in test procedure consideration,**  **11 stuff like that.**  **12 In addition, tomorrow I'm going to**  **13 suggest we start off first thing with one**  **14 thing we didn't cover today which is metric**  **15 for pump efficiency.**  **16 And then following from there**  **17 going to testing or test procedure -- testing**  **18 overview and then test procedure. And then**  **19 figure out what else we're going to do for the**  **20 rest of the day.**  **21 But in the remaining minute or two**  **22 that we have here I was going to invite Lucas** 

### Page 424

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 Adin to just speak for a moment about the**  **2 metric for pump efficiency just to cue this**  **3 up. Just so you'll have your appetite whetted**  **4 for tomorrow's discussion.**  **5 MR. ADIN: Thanks, Doug. I'm**  **6 actually going to backtrack just a little bit**  **7 and echo what Doug said earlier.**  **8 Our general hope for these two**  **9 meetings was to try and come to a vote on the**  **10 items that we have listed in here,**  **11 understanding now after the discussion we've**  **12 had today that realistically there's probably**  **13 some more analysis, maybe some more data to**  **14 collect before a lot of the folks in this**  **15 room, perhaps myself included, will feel**  **16 comfortable deciding which of those things in**  **17 the yellow are going to go into the green or**  **18 the red category.**  **19 But the other, as Doug mentioned,**  **20 the other substantive items that we still have**  **21 yet to discuss in the agenda are the metric**  **22 that we'll use to rate pump efficiency and** 

### Page 425

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 then the test procedure that we prospectively 2 would use to actually perform that**  **3 measurement. 4 We're not necessarily planning on**  **5 talking about specific elements of the 40.6 6 test procedure or any other prospective test**  **7 procedure we might use. We're just talking 8 generally high-level about pump testing and**  **9 how different components would be included in 10 that measurement.**  **11 So, not necessarily to make any 12 particular decision about those things, but**  **13 just to have a conceptual framework to use as 14 we approach all these items. Because**  **15 prospectively those might inform decisions on 16 what we're going to do about coverage, or**  **17 scope, rather. 18 And also because we are on a**  **19 time-line implicitly with the test procedure 20 because it's an integral part of this whole**  **21 thing. So, we at least have to get the ideas 22 flowing about how testing is going to work so** 

### Page 426

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 that we can kind of set up our discussions in**  **2 the next meeting and the meeting after that.**  **3 Because we're going to be moving relatively**  **4 quickly on those things.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So,**  **6 I've laid out what we intend to cover**  **7 tomorrow.**  **8 Now, I want to, in addition to**  **9 thank everyone. Anybody that wishes to make**  **10 a closing remark for -- oh, one more thing.**  **11 We're scheduled to start tomorrow**  **12 at 8 a.m. There was discussion at the last**  **13 meeting about trying to move that time**  **14 somewhat, mostly because the logic that sticks**  **15 with me is those folks on the west coast it's**  **16 5 a.m. out there when we start here at 8. Do**  **17 we have any folks from the west coast? Can**  **18 you tell? Can't tell from the area codes or**  **19 anything.**  **20 The Federal Register notice I**  **21 presume said the meeting tomorrow is going to**  **22 start at 8 a.m. All of the negotiators are** 

### Page 427

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 here and present to start at 8 a.m. I'm going**  **2 to suggest that we start at 8 a.m. tomorrow.**  **3 One or two of you won't make it at**  **4 8 but will be here perhaps no later than 9 I**  **5 know because one or two have mentioned it to**  **6 me.**  **7 But tomorrow at the end of the day**  **8 I think we can again reconsider whether you**  **9 want to jigger with the times slightly.**  **10 Because I promised you that previously. You**  **11 may not recall. We'll take additional bits of**  **12 advocacy on those points.**  **13 But tomorrow at 8 o'clock right**  **14 here in this room. You're going to be doing**  **15 sign-in, Emily, yes? So Emily will be down**  **16 there bright and early beginning at 7:30-ish**  **17 or 7:15-ish? Yes.**  **18 So, thanks for a really good day.**  **19 Closing comments? Any comments from anybody,**  **20 any member at this point to close out the day?**  **21 Have a lovely evening. Get a good**  **22 night's sleep. We'll see you here bright and** 

### Page 428

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 early, 8 a.m. 2 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter**  **3 went off the record at 6:02 p.m.) 4**  **5 6**  **7 8**  **9 10**  **11 12**  **13 14**  **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22** 

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 479**  3-inch 174:15,16 175:1,5,8 178:10 179:6 183:13,22 184:5,8,18 185:9 186:16 187:9,15 187:20 189:4 190:6 191:2,12 192:4 193:13 213:18 214:12,14 3,000 128:13 418:7 3,200 163:16 3,600 163:2,10 164:10 168:3,13 225:11,19 238:1 3.38 323:11 3:06220:8 3:309:2 30 1:8 4:6 172:6

314:5 317:18 333:22 342:9 300,000 374:5 4 4 3:11 87:20 92:13 105:17 156:21 157:5 158:18 159:3,13,22 161:18 162:5,7,8 162:11,13,16,20 164:2 168:9,13,19 169:14 170:18,20 171:12,19 174:4,9 174:11,21 175:17 178:8,10 181:12 183:1,11 186:3 187:21 188:16 189:2,12 190:11 191:11,17 194:14 195:1,5 196:15 197:8,20 224:7 225:1,12,16,17 226:1,6 228:14 231:1 237:7,13,13 238:11 239:17 240:6 243:16 395:1 419:6 4-6 182:1 4-inch 175:2,3,13 178:21 179:1 184:10 4,00022:16 231:18

306:12 347:3 40 303:1 314:19

317:10,11,11,17 319:2 333:22 337:1 338:9 40,000 111:11 40.6293:8 425:5 40048:4 425 3:20 45-50 367:13 459 179:22 211:17

232:8 5 5 3:14 12:10 77:5 108:14 153:3 186:2 190:12 243:16 252:18 260:2 314:3 351:2 351:11 357:20,21 404:15 421:4 422:8 426:16 5-minute 367:11 50 191:19 278:2

384:20 409:6 500 126:18 346:22

406:12 547230:9 233:6

236:22 238:16 239:2 55 337:11 6 6 107:22 108:13,21

111:3,5 143:11,12 143:22 156:21 174:4,4,9,11,21 178:10 183:11,12 186:7,20 187:4 190:11,14 195:1 209:21 231:12 233:16 235:12 240:5 255:11,16 332:10 351:3 358:2 6-inch 174:3

175:18 178:8,21 179:1 181:12 185:5,17 188:17 189:3,12 191:10 191:17 194:15 195:5,15,20 196:3 197:8 199:1 213:14 239:18 419:6 6-inches 183:1 6-year360:5 6:02428:3 60 191:19 198:4 610 113:4 114:16

114:18 135:12 265:12 6291 80:12 65 32:15 7 7 107:22 108:14 111:3 143:12,16 323:12 351:3 7-year351:11 7,000 187:10

300:21 7,300 300:9 7:15-ish427:17 7:30-ish427:16 70 342:8 700 19:22 74409:6 7457211:15 8 89:7 109:1 174:21

307:15 426:12,16 426:22 427:1,2,4 427:13 428:1 8-9 323:12 8,700419:21 8,760416:7 8E-089 1:11 9NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 480

ASRAC Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting

US DOE

01-30-14

Washington, DC