UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, COMPLAINANT, vs. FDMS NO. FAA-2013-0848 ENDLESS MOUNTAIN AIR, INC., RESPONDENT.

_____________________________________________________

TELECONFERENCE HEARING BEFORE THE HONORABLE J. E. SULLIVAN WEDNESDAY, MAY 28, 2014 1:04 P.M. HISTORIC JORDAN SPRINGS 1160 JORDAN SPRINGS ROAD STEPHENSON, VIRGINIA 22656FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 2

1 APPEARANCES 2 ON BE HALF OF THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION: 3 ZACH ARY M. BERMAN, ESQUIRE 4 OFFIC E OF THE REGIONAL COUNSEL, 5 EASTE RN REGION 6 1 AV IATION PLAZA 7 JAMA ICA, NEW YORK 14434 8 TELE PHONE: 718.553.3258 9 FACS IMILE: 718.995.5699 10 ZACH ARY.BERMAN@FAA.GOV 11 12 ON BE HALF OF THE RESPONDENT, 13 ENDLE SS MOUNTAIN AIR, INC.: 14 WILL IAM J. DOBITSCH, JR., 15 REPR ESENTATIVE 16 SEAMA

NS AIRPORT 17 727 WINDSOCK LANE 18 FACT ORYVILLE, PENNSYLVANIA 18419 19 TELE PHONE: NONE AVAILABLE 20 FACS IMILE: 570.945.5953 21 EMAI L: NOT FOUND 22 23 ALSO PRESENT: 24 CODY L. SMITH 25 IREN E NEMESIOFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 3

1 TELECONFERENCE HEARING 2 WEDNESDAY, MAY 28, 2014 3 1:04 P.M. 4 THE COURT: We're on the record in the 5 matter of Endless Mountain Air, Inc. This is docket 6 number FAA-2013-0848. Today is Wednesday, May 28, 7 2014, and the parties have convened by telephone for a 8 litigation scheduling conference. According to the 9 Court's record the last order issued was dated May 15, 10 2014, and it was an order denying the FAA's motion for 11 a decision, which leads us to today. The FAA is 12 represented by its attorney of record, Mr. Zachary M. 13 Berman. The Respondent, and I'm sorry, am I, am I 14 using the, no, I'm okay. I was looking at something 15 else. Excuse me. The Respondent, Endless Mountains 16 Air, Inc., is represented by its lay representative, 17 William J. Dobitsch, Jr. Also present at the Office 18 of Hearings are two observers, Mr. Cody L. Smith, an 19 attorney advisor with this office. In addition Ms. 20 Irene Nemesio, a law student intern with this office. 21 So good afternoon, everybody. 22 MR. BERMAN: Good afternoon. 23 THE COURT: What we need to do a little 24 bit is talk about what the scope of litigation is 25 going to be in this particular case given the Court'sFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 4

1 order and also the answer that was filed by Mr. 2 Dobitsch preceding that order. So I'm going to start 3 with you, Mr. Berman. Have you had a chance to read 4 through the answer filed by Mr. Dobitsch on behalf of 5 Endless Mountain? 6 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 7 THE COURT: And talk with him about 8 what issues are actually still in dispute? 9 MR. BERMAN: Well, I haven't discussed 10 that with him yet. 11 THE COURT: Okay. Well, do you have a 12 sense of what issues you think may still be in dispute 13 and if so could you tell us what those are? 14 MR. BERMAN: Oh, I think that the main 15 issue, the factual issue in dispute is, I don't think 16 it's disputed, the facts that the six flights that 17 were technically not in compliance with the 18 regulations and that's the pilot hadn't test the 19 appropriate tests. But my understanding is that it's 20 the contention of the Respondent that he didn't, there 21 was some kind of misunderstanding that they 22 misunderstood the regulations and that's mitigating 23 and also it's their contention that the civil penalty 24 sought by the Agency is excessive and we disagree with 25 that.FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 5

1 THE COURT: Okay. So as I understand 2 what you've just said, Mr. Berman, you're asserting 3 that there may have been some admissions by the 4 Respondent to the factual allegations presented in 5 count 1 of the complaint but that the primary dispute 6 between the parties is about the civil penalty itself. 7 Is that what you're saying to us? 8 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Was there anything 10 in the Respondent's answer, Mr. Berman, that led you 11 to believe rightly or wrongly that the Respondent 12 wanted to have a trial on any of the underlying 13 factual matters? 14 MR. BERMAN: Was there anything that 15 led me to believe that he does want a trial on the 16 underlying matters? 17 THE COURT: Correct. I'm just checking 18 in with you to see if there's anything that you saw in 19 the Respondent's answer that would leave open a 20 question on the matter of fact regarding the alleged 21 violation or if you're fairly confident that the 22 Respondent's answer admitted to all of those things. 23 MR. BERMAN: No, I think there's an 24 issue of fact as to communications that Endless 25 Mountains Air had with the FAA Flight StandardsFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 6

1 District Office. 2 THE COURT: But as I understand what 3 you've just told me, that is more a mitigating 4 circumstance for the civil penalty. Or are you saying 5 it's a defense to the actual, actual violations 6 alleged? 7 MR. BERMAN: Just, well, it's my 8 understanding that they, I'm not sure if they would 9 dispute that they committed a, I think the way I 10 interpret it is that they had a good faith belief that 11 they, at the time that they did what they did that 12 they were doing the right thing. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. BERMAN: And that is ... 15 THE COURT: And as the prosecuting 16 agent do you see that as a defense to the factual 17 allegations or as a mitigating defense to the proposed 18 civil penalty or both? 19 MR. BERMAN: I see that as more a, I'm 20 not admitting that, not admitting that it is 21 mitigating, just that that would be more in the way of 22 mitigating the civil penalty. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. BERMAN: Because I don't, I don't 25 see where they would, I don't believe that they areFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 7

1 disputing the facts as stated in the complaint. 2 THE COURT: Okay. And I think what 3 I'll do now, is I'll turn to Mr. Dobitsch and check in 4 with him about the answer and what it purported to do 5 for his client. Mr. Dobitsch, let's chat for a moment 6 about your answer. 7 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 8 affirmatively.) 9 THE COURT: There hasn't been a 10 preliminary discussion between you and Mr. Berman. In 11 your answer was it your intent to admit the factual 12 violations or were you trying to do something else? 13 MR. DOBITSCH: In my response, 14 technically, you know, looking at the regulations it 15 would, accordingly I was in I guess violation of the 16 regulations. But I have many, many mitigating 17 circumstances here and, you know, among them what I 18 would feel is a lack of assistance from the FAA 19 themselves just to, you know, ascertain whether it was 20 okay. And then after, you know, like I had mentioned 21 in my, I had written in my letter, we had certainly 22 looked in detail at the regulations and the paperwork 23 and we had ascertained at that time, myself and Mr. 24 Palmer, my pilot, that we were legal to fly. Am I 25 going to say no, we didn't fly those days? AbsolutelyFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 8

1 not. We, you know, we did. Those flights were 2 definitely, you know, we made those flights but they 3 were made on 100 percent in belief of being in 4 compliance. And as I have stated in my letter, we 5 had, you know, if we, if we did not think we were in 6 compliance why would we have left such a paper trail 7 out there? And in addition, I guess , or not guess, 8 but, I mean, the civil penalty for something like 9 this, you know, myself and Mr. Palmer have made, you 10 know, we've certainly gone through to be educated in 11 this, in this matter in what technically we had done 12 wrong and we, you know, I basically think that this, I 13 think I had also stated in my letter this has gone way 14 too far. I'm a small operator, single plain, barely 15 making a go of it and, you know, this type of, this 16 amount of penalty is just, it's obscene. 17 THE COURT: Okay. So from what I'm 18 hearing from you and from what I'm hearing from Mr. 19 Berman, it sounds to me like the two of you are fairly 20 close in agreement, if not right on point, with the 21 perception that the real dispute is whether or not 22 this proposed fine of $46,200 is an appropriate amount 23 for the six flights that were alleged to have been 24 flown in violation of FAA safety regulations. That's 25 what I'm kind of hearing from you both and I'm tryingFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 9

1 to see if that's accurate or not. And the reason I'm 2 trying to see that is so that gives me a sense of what 3 we should be scheduling for discovery and for 4 litigation. So I want to just firm that up with you, 5 Mr. Dobitsch. It sounded to me from a review of your 6 answer that you agree that those six flights that are 7 alleged to have occurred in the FAA's complaint on 8 page 1 from the period of September 23, 2011, to 9 October 9, 2011, with a Cirrus SR20 Aircraft actually 10 took place. 11 MR. DOBITSCH: Absolutely. The 12 flights, we did take the flights. We, you know, like 13 I'd said, we believed we were in compliance with 14 regulations. We didn't hide anything. We've gone 15 through the process to, you know, learn from this and 16 move on. Yeah. But that's basically my, this is a 17 technical violation, no, not giving up any safety. We 18 operated safely. My pilot had a check ride within six 19 months. And this is just, you know, like I have said, 20 it's been blown out of proportion. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Then what I need to 22 do at this point is I'm going to ask you both to take 23 a look at the FAA complaint and I'm going to focus 24 specifically on pages 1 and page 2. And what I'm 25 going to do first and foremost is I'm going to look atFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 10

1 count 2 which begins on page 1 and it moves into the 2 top of page 2 of the FAA's complaint. And we're going 3 to go through count 2, paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4 and talk 4 about those just to see if each of those factual 5 allegations are admitted. And I'm doing that simply 6 to protect the appellate record and to make sure that 7 if in fact those are admitted we can kind of take 8 those and put them aside and focus in on what the real 9 dispute is. And I know, Mr. Dobitsch, that this may 10 seem somewhat repetitive to you, but I think for 11 purposes of clarity and to give you a chance, last 12 chance to say yay or nay we'll do it this way. And 13 then at the end of that if there is something in 14 paragraphs 1, 2, 3, or 4 in count 2 of the complaint 15 that's still an issue I'll know. If there isn't then 16 I can really focus in on just the civil penalty. Does 17 that make sense to you, Mr. Berman? 18 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 19 THE COURT: Okay. And, Mr. Dobitsch? 20 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Okay. So what I'll do 22 right now, Mr. Dobitsch, is I'll turn to you and I'll 23 ask you to look at count 2 on page 1 of the FAA's 24 complaint, paragraph 1, and it begins with Endless 25 Mountain Air, Inc., is the holder of. Do you seeFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 11

1 that, that sentence? 2 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. This would be on 3 final notice of proposed civil penalty. 4 THE COURT: No, it's actually on the 5 complaint. Do you have a copy of the complaint with 6 you? 7 MR. DOBITSCH: I'm sure I do. I will 8 have to find it. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Because the 10 complaint is what's filed with me. 11 MR. DOBITSCH: Just bear with me. I'm 12 just going through ... 13 THE COURT: Sure. Your final notice of 14 civil penalty is very similar. But I do have to 15 utilize the complaint. 16 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, so it sounds like 17 the same paragraph. Hold on. 18 THE COURT: If you can't find it just 19 let me know. 20 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. Let me, I'm, just 21 bear with me. I'm sure I have it here. All right, 22 it's not the notice of civil penalty although it 23 sounds very similar. Your Honor, I'm just not finding 24 it. I found a, I found the notice of proposed civil 25 penalty dated March 15th of 2012 which is, I guess,FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 12

1 well, basically very similar to the final notice of 2 proposed civil penalty. Bear with me one more moment. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. DOBITSCH: Have one moment. 5 MR. BERMAN: If this helps, Mr. 6 Dobitsch, the complaint is preceded by a cover letter 7 where it's saying enclosed herein please find a copy 8 of request for hearing, original and one copy of FAA's 9 complaint. 10 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. Thank you, sir. 11 MR. BERMAN: I don't know if that 12 helps. 13 MR. DOBITSCH: Let me, let me just flip 14 through everything again. 15 MR. BERMAN: And it's dated December 16 17th, 2013. 17 MR. DOBITSCH: I think I've found, yep, 18 I have found it. Okay, December 17th, 2013. It was 19 certified and, okay, DOT, FAA and it says complaint on 20 it. Got it. 21 THE COURT: All right. Now, Mr. 22 Dobitsch, why don't we take a look at page 1 of the 23 complaint. 24 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 25 THE COURT: Under Roman numeral 2 thereFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 13

1 are three numbered paragraphs starting with the number 2 1 and moving chronologically to the number 3. 3 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (indicating 4 affirmatively.) 5 THE COURT: And will you look at the 6 paragraph identified as number 1 which starts and 7 states, quote, Endless Mountain Air, Inc., is the 8 holder of, end quote. 9 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 10 THE COURT: And tell me if you agree or 11 disagree with that factual allegation. 12 MR. DOBITSCH: Agree. 13 THE COURT: Okay. And then let's look 14 at paragraph 2 under count 2 on page 1 of the 15 complaint that starts with the words, quote, during 16 the period from September 23, 2011, end quote. If you 17 would read that paragraph silently to yourself first 18 and then tell me if you agree or disagree or simply 19 don't know. 20 MR. DOBITSCH: I would agree. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Let's turn next to 22 paragraph 3 on page 1 of the two page complaint. That 23 paragraph or that sentence starts with, quote, during 24 each of the above referenced flights, end quote, and 25 so forth. If you would read that particular paragraphFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 14

1 that moves on to the top of page 2 of the complaint, 2 then let me know when you're ready. And I apologize, 3 the complaint is actually five pages long instead of 4 two. My error. 5 MR. DOBITSCH: No, it's not necessary. 6 Okay. So section 2, number 3. 7 THE COURT: Correct. 8 MR. DOBITSCH: Under section 293 I 9 would agree with that. 10 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. And then 11 we're now on page 2 of the five page complaint. At 12 the top of page 2, still under count 2, and the 13 numbered section is number 4, starting with the words, 14 quote, during each of the above referenced flights, 15 comma, Mr. Palmer, end quote. If you would read that 16 sentence quietly to yourself and then tell me if you 17 agree, disagree or don't know. 18 MR. DOBITSCH: I would disagree with 19 this because Mr. Palmer had a flight check on April, 20 the previous April before these alleged violations. 21 THE COURT: Okay. So this is, I'm glad 22 we did this because this tells me that there is a 23 disagreement of fact between the parties that we need 24 to address either during pre- hearing discovery or at 25 trial. So essentially I will find that the RespondentFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 15

1 has agreed to paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 of count 2 of the 2 complaint filed by the FAA and that there appears to 3 still be a disagreement between the parties about the 4 allegation contained in paragraph 4 of count 2 of the 5 complaint. That leads me to a discussion of the scope 6 of the trial, the scope of the discovery and so forth 7 and as a result I need to get some different papers 8 before we continue. So if you'll give me a moment 9 I'll pull those out. And I will thank both of you for 10 the joint proposed procedural schedule that you 11 previously filed in this case that was received by 12 this office on March 11, 2014. Obviously some of the 13 proposed dates that were proffered at that time have 14 already expired. So what I want to do is talk a 15 little bit about the end of the case, which is the 16 trial, and then work my way back into today to get a 17 sense of how much time to allot for discovery and what 18 type of discovery might be needed given the issues in 19 dispute, that being one factual allegation and then 20 the civil penalty proposal. I'll turn first to you, 21 Mr. Berman. About how long do you think the trial 22 would need to be reserved for given the identification 23 of the parties' dispute and would it still be in, in 24 and around Allentown, Pennsylvania? 25 MR. BERMAN: Yes, I would request it beFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 16

1 in Allentown, Pennsylvania. And I don't think it 2 should last more than a day, but I'd suggest perhaps 3 we reserve for two days just in case ... 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. BERMAN: ... it goes into a second. 6 THE COURT: And let me ask you a little 7 bit about Allentown, Pennsylvania. Are there federal 8 district courthouse facilities in that city? 9 MR. BERMAN: It's been a while but I 10 know I've had, it's been many years but I do recall 11 having a hearing in the downtown area in federal, 12 federal court there. 13 THE COURT: Okay. And what's, is that 14 near Pittsburgh or Philadelphia or can you give ... 15 MR. BERMAN: Close, close to the 16 Philadelphia. It's on the eastern side of, not far 17 from New York. It's like about two hours from New 18 York City. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. BERMAN: As opposed to Pittsburgh 21 which is about eight hours by car from ... 22 THE COURT: Yeah. I'm aware, I'm aware 23 of the distance between the two. Okay. Mr. Dobitsch, 24 let me talk to you next. Is Allentown, Pennsylvania, 25 a good place for you? Where is Factoryville,FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 17

1 Pennsylvania, from Allentown? 2 MR. DOBITSCH: I am north of Allentown 3 about an hour and forty-five minute's drive. 4 THE COURT: Okay. And are you aware of 5 federal district courthouse facilities in Allentown? 6 MR. DOBITSCH: I'm not aware of it, but 7 I'm sure I could find it. 8 THE COURT: Well, I, I've gotten an 9 assertion from the FAA that there might be some but 10 it's been a while since he was last in that area. If 11 you knew you could say and if you don't know I have 12 staff here who can find out. So for the time being I 13 will accept the parties' recommendation of Allentown, 14 Pennsylvania. If we have trouble finding facilities 15 we'll basically default to the next nearest locale 16 that has a federal courthouse and we'll let you know 17 if there's any problem. Mr. Dobitsch, in looking at 18 your side of the case, do you have a sense of how long 19 it would take you to present your witnesses on both 20 the factual issue that's still in dispute and the 21 monetary issue that's in dispute? 22 MR. DOBITSCH: Well, I've never, you 23 know, been in, been in court or had a case. I mean, 24 I've been on, as a juror a number of times but I've 25 never actually had a case. I would imagine a dayFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 18

1 would be enough for me. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. DOBITSCH: You know, I would think. 4 THE COURT: Well, what I'll do is I'll 5 talk a little bit about what that entails so that you 6 have an idea and I'll also give you some resources to 7 look up if you choose to pursue this on your own. 8 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 9 affirmatively.) 10 THE COURT: And maybe this is a good 11 time to do that. In essence, the cases that are 12 brought before this Administrative Court are fairly 13 formal in nature. So whenever possible we try and set 14 the hearings in a federal district courthouse or 15 courthouse facility. So assuming that that is 16 accomplished in your case, essentially you would be 17 coming to a courthouse, going through security, and 18 then arriving ultimately at a courtroom. The 19 courtroom is setup very similar to a courtroom that 20 you may have sat in as a juror where there is a raised 21 bench, a witness stand on one side, typically the 22 right of the Court, a clerk, a desk on the left-hand 23 side of the bench, and then two attorney tables facing 24 the bench. The proceedings in these cases are done 25 very similar to a federal district court trial, so theFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 19

1 prosecuting agent will go first and present its 2 evidence first. That means that Mr. Berman has the 3 burden of proof to start. He will present his 4 witnesses and evidence first. He will present them in 5 the format called direct examination which is the 6 format that is assigned essentially to the party 7 presenting witnesses. Direct examination usually is a 8 narrative form of inquiry. It's who, what, where, 9 why, how questions. You as the responding party would 10 be allowed to question Mr. Berman's witnesses as well 11 during the format called cross examination. Cross 12 examination is a different type of inquiry. It can 13 include direct examination but it can also include 14 leading questions. You don't have to ask questions of 15 Mr. Berman's witnesses but many people do. Assuming 16 Mr. Berman puts on three witnesses and then he's 17 satisfied after the third witness, then he's made his 18 case. He will rest. At which point you have the 19 option to put on a defensive case or to rest as well. 20 Most people put on a defensive case but not everybody. 21 If you put on a defensive case then you are presenting 22 your witnesses and your style of inquiry would be 23 direct because you're calling a witness to the stand. 24 And then Mr. Berman would have a chance as the 25 responding party to cross examine your witnesses if heFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 20

1 so chooses. At the end of that Mr. Berman would have 2 what's called the last bite at the apple and he could 3 if he wanted to present rebuttal witnesses to your 4 evidence. If he does that you would again have a 5 right to question those witnesses in cross examination 6 and you potentially could present a rebuttal witness 7 as well after Mr. Berman is finished. Most times 8 people do not present rebuttal but sometimes they do. 9 So most litigants will focus on the prosecuting 10 agent's presentation of their case in chief and their 11 responsive case. Does this sound similar to cases 12 that you've sat in as a juror so far? 13 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, it does, Your 14 Honor. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Then in addition to 16 that, in addition to calling people as witnesses, you 17 would be required to have exhibits, physical 18 documentary evidence, prepared and ready to present 19 during your, your part of the case. And physical 20 documents are usually marked as exhibits and there is 21 a method by which you present your exhibits unless you 22 and Mr. Berman talk ahead of time and you both agree 23 that some of your exhibits will come in by agreement 24 or that some of his will. 25 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (IndicatingFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 21

1 affirmatively.) 2 THE COURT: Your exhibits have to have 3 some relationship to the issues at hand and should be 4 in a format that makes them admissible to the trier of 5 fact. Typically some of those things would mean that 6 the exhibit has to be reliable, understandable, 7 reliable from a clearly identified source who has 8 knowledge to present that information by either 9 written form or if you have photographs, for example, 10 you have to have photographs that are relevant to the 11 proceeding. There are books that are written about 12 how evidence is prepared, presented and admitted, so I 13 can't get into all of that at this point. 14 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 15 affirmatively.) 16 THE COURT: If you are the person 17 representing your company and you also plan to 18 testify, you then have the challenge of getting on the 19 stand and doing a narrative statement and then 20 fielding questions that are presented to you in cross. 21 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 22 THE COURT: And you may find that it is 23 much easier to handle that portion of the case if you 24 have someone to assist you. What I've seen other 25 individuals do in your circumstance when they'reFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 22

1 presenting their own case is bring in a helper who can 2 ask you questions when you're on the stand and then 3 field whatever objections are being raised while 4 you're under oath. 5 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 6 affirmatively.) 7 THE COURT: Because wearing all those 8 hats at one time can be quite challenging. So those 9 are some of the things that you would need to do or 10 prepare for, for the trial itself. Any questions so 11 far? 12 MR. DOBITSCH: No. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Then before the 14 trial you would also be responsible for representing 15 your client in asking for information from Mr. Berman 16 and in responding to requests for information from Mr. 17 Berman. And this whole portion of the litigation is 18 called the discovery period. 19 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 20 THE COURT: The reason it's called the 21 discovery period is because you and Mr. Berman have a 22 chance to learn more about each other's cases. You 23 have a chance to discover new information, thus the 24 word discovery. You can use all kinds of different 25 tools to learn more about each other's perceptions andFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 23

1 beliefs in terms of your dispute and those tools can 2 be a request for written information and the request 3 can come in certain forms or they can be very informal 4 depending on how well you work with each other. You 5 can engage in depositions where you hire court 6 reporters and depose witnesses before you ever get to 7 trial ... 8 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 9 affirmatively.) 10 THE COURT: ... which is fairly formal. 11 You can do all kinds of different things. Most often 12 people will go and start with the very basics which is 13 tell each other what they know and what they believe 14 and why they believe it. You may find in the 15 discovery period that you are not as far apart as you 16 may think. You may find in the discovery period that 17 there's a piece of information that Mr. Berman didn't 18 know and once you gave it to him it helped change his 19 mind on something and vice versa. Mr. Berman may have 20 something that he shares with you that suddenly is an 21 ah-hah moment for you. The discovery period can be 22 very helpful to litigating parties because it not only 23 helps you learn about each other's cases and prepare 24 for trial, it also gives you an opportunity to 25 constantly reconsider and think about potentialFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 24

1 settlement. I say that not because I think you should 2 settle this case or that because I have any belief 3 about that, I say it because in every single case, in 4 every single litigation parties have a responsibility 5 to their client to look at different options for 6 resolution and one of those options is always 7 settlement negotiations. So because you are your 8 company's representative, I'm sharing with you what 9 attorneys already know, that you always are looking to 10 see what settlement opportunities arise when you 11 exchange information. 12 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 13 affirmatively.) 14 THE COURT: You may find that there are 15 a whole bunch or that there are none. I don't know. 16 MR. DOBITSCH: Right. 17 THE COURT: But it's something to 18 always consider. And because that is part and parcel 19 of litigation, you always want to keep as best you can 20 friendly relations with your friend across the aisle. 21 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 22 affirmatively.) 23 THE COURT: Because it's so much easier 24 to work out a settlement with someone with whom you've 25 been pleasant and who has been pleasant to you ...FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 25

1 MR. DOBITSCH: Right. 2 THE COURT: ... as opposed to someone 3 who has been unpleasant. And Mr. Berman's an old, I 4 shouldn't say he's an old person. He's an older 5 practitioner and so he knows that and I'm just 6 catching you up to speed. So let's talk about general 7 discovery and other discovery matters. And to do that 8 I'm going to turn back to you, Mr. Berman. There 9 seems to be one factual matter that is of issue and 10 then the remaining matter is the proposed penalty. 11 What kind of discovery do you think, best guess at 12 this point, that you're going to need to have and how 13 long do you think it will take? 14 MR. BERMAN: I don't anticipate a lot 15 of discovery, just the basics. Interrogatories and 16 request for production of documents to produce to 17 inform us of what their theory of the case is and any 18 documents that they anticipate to support their theory 19 of the case. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. BERMAN: So I don't anticipate any 22 depositions, just perhaps request for admissions will 23 be used. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dobitsch, when 25 Mr. Berman talks about interrogatories, request forFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 26

1 production and request for admission, do you know what 2 those mean? 3 MR. DOBITSCH: No, I do not. 4 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to just 5 give you a brief description. They're all requests 6 for discovery in writing. 7 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 8 THE COURT: And they have, they come in 9 different forms. So request for admissions are 10 written requests for you to admit certain facts or 11 information. And you want to pay attention to those 12 because they have a timeline for response. 13 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 14 affirmatively.) 15 THE COURT: And if you don't respond 16 within the timeline it's presumed that you're 17 admitting what's been asked of you. 18 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 19 THE COURT: And that can change the 20 trial quite a bit. 21 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 22 affirmatively.) 23 THE COURT: Interrogatories are written 24 questions that are propounded to your client and they 25 have a certain format. Typically under the rules aFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 27

1 party can only submit thirty interrogatories or less 2 to the other side. But they also have a timeline and 3 you need to answer them usually within thirty days or 4 less. Request for production are requests for you to 5 produce certain documents or photographs or other 6 information that you are relying upon to support your 7 theory of the case. 8 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 9 affirmatively.) 10 THE COURT: And that will be in writing 11 as well and it will be time sensitive. Again, usually 12 about thirty days. So those are some of the tools that 13 lawyers use in discovery. Those are the tools that you 14 can use as well on behalf of your client. 15 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 16 affirmatively.) 17 THE COURT: If you do, you want to 18 serve those requests upon Mr. Berman and they need to 19 be in a form that he can understand just like he needs 20 to serve them to you in a form that you understand. 21 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 22 affirmatively.) 23 THE COURT: There are other types of 24 tools as well but I think these three tools are fairly 25 often used, probably more often than anything else.FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 28

1 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 2 affirmatively.) 3 THE COURT: Mr. Berman has stated that 4 he's not likely to take depositions. What that means 5 is that he's not likely to ask you to produce your 6 witnesses early so that he can ask questions of them 7 with a court reporter present. 8 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 9 THE COURT: This is often done by 10 parties when they have very complex litigation and 11 they want to see a witness and ask questions of a 12 witness before they get to trial. 13 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 14 affirmatively.) 15 THE COURT: Many times people do not do 16 this when cases are a little less complex. And just 17 in terms of what you have your issues are fairly 18 narrow ... 19 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 20 affirmatively.) 21 THE COURT: ... because you have one 22 factual issue and then the civil penalty. So you 23 certainly could utilize depositions in your discovery 24 period but it is costly. You do have to pay for 25 witnesses to travel and you have to pay for the courtFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 29

1 reporter and so forth. 2 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 3 affirmatively.) 4 THE COURT: So it may not be something 5 you need to do, but it's up to you. Let me ask you 6 this, Mr. Dobitsch. So far is there anything that you 7 would like to ask about in terms of discovery? 8 MR. DOBITSCH: I think I have the 9 general gist of it. I'll do a little bit of research, 10 too, and ... 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. DOBITSCH: I, all right. This is 13 just discovery though, okay. Yep, I think I'm, I 14 think I have a pretty good handle on it, thank you. 15 THE COURT: Okay. What I'm going to 16 suggest that we do is that, and I've done this in a 17 couple other cases, is first take care of some 18 discovery issues and then once the parties are 19 finished with discovery check in with you all, if 20 everything's going well. 21 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 22 affirmatively.) 23 THE COURT: And then also have a trial 24 date after that. So we have a couple different check 25 ins to insure that everybody's on the same page andFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 30

1 working towards the same goal. So let's do this. Mr. 2 Berman, how much time do you think you would need for 3 a comfortable discovery period? 4 MR. BERMAN: I'd say about, including 5 file and the responses and the ... 6 THE COURT: Correct. 7 MR. BERMAN: Yeah, I'd say about ninety 8 days total. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dobitsch, does 10 that sound reasonable to you or do you have a vacation 11 coming up in the summer that we need to account for? 12 MR. DOBITSCH: Ninety days sounds 13 reasonable. Right now the only things I have planned 14 are, I think, remembering right off the top of my 15 head, July 19th through the 26th, that week, and then 16 the week, the week immediately after Labor Day, too, 17 would be a problem for me. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. DOBITSCH: Other than that I would 20 be available. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Let me take a look 22 at my calendar then. Okay. Then why don't we do 23 this. Today is the 28th. Okay. Why don't we do 24 this. Why don't I set June 11, 2014, for the deadline 25 for initial disclosures. And initial disclosures areFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 31

1 very simple and they don't require a formal request of 2 discovery from either side. And I'll be issuing a 3 litigation order after we're done today that will 4 codify all of this in writing and also give you both 5 references to different rules and regulations so that 6 if you have questions you can look those up. But in 7 essence, an initial disclosure requires three things. 8 Address and telephone number and name of the 9 individuals likely to have discoverable information 10 about the dispute. So, for example, Mr. Berman would 11 likely identify his FAA safety inspector who did the 12 investigation ... 13 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 14 affirmatively.) 15 THE COURT: ... as the person who has 16 discoverable information. If there were two of them 17 he would likely identify both people with their names 18 and their contact information and basically a summary 19 of, short summary of what they know. There would also 20 be disclosure of any documents that would be utilized 21 to support the allegations and then a computation of 22 how the $46,000 and some odd dollar penalty was 23 calculated. On Mr. Dobitsch's side he would identify 24 potentially himself as someone who has information. 25 He might identify the pilot that is referenced in theFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 32

1 complaint. He might identify someone else who has 2 information about the company finances if he's 3 asserting that the company can't pay the amount and so 4 forth. There would be just a general exchange of 5 basic information that identifies who knows, who knows 6 things and what they know and how they know them. And 7 then after that, after that initial exchange by the 8 parties, you would start general discovery or in 9 collaboration with that initial exchange. General 10 discovery would then include filing requests for 11 information that are specific under the form of 12 written interrogatories or request for production or 13 request for admission. And then I would suggest, 14 given our time frame and Mr. Dobitsch's black out 15 dates, that we take the next two weeks just to do the 16 initial discovery where you exchange some basic 17 information, finish that up by June 11, 2014, and then 18 on or before June 11, 2014, start your general 19 discovery. And if we start general discovery on or 20 before June 11, 2014, the end date for that would be 21 most likely October 1, 2014, which is a little more 22 than ninety days to account for the two black out 23 weeks that Mr. Dobitsch has already talked about. 24 And, Mr. Dobitsch, what I'm going to do is I'm going 25 to also set a time period prior to October 1, 2014,FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 33

1 ... 2 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 3 affirmatively.) 4 THE COURT: ... for both you and Mr. 5 Berman to identify expert witnesses. So, for example, 6 and these are specific. So if Endless Mountain 7 decides to hire an expert witness I want you ... 8 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 9 affirmatively.) 10 THE COURT: ... to be telling Mr. 11 Berman that before the close of the discovery period. 12 If Mr. Berman decides to utilize the testimony of an 13 FAA employee whose duties regularly involve giving 14 expert testimony, I want him, I want him to be telling 15 you that before the close of the discovery period. The 16 reason I want that disclosure before the end of 17 discovery is so that if either of you have questions 18 of that specific expert you can ask them before 19 discovery is over. 20 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 21 affirmatively.) 22 THE COURT: Mr. Berman, I'm looking at 23 potentially the latter part of July or mid to late 24 August for that particular due date. Do you have a 25 preference?FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 34

1 MR. BERMAN: No, either one is fine. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dobitsch, any 3 preference from you? 4 MR. DOBITSCH: No, Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Then I will set 6 August 20th, 2014, for the disclosure of any special 7 expert the parties are speaking to as to the hearing. 8 It may be that neither of you have that type of expert 9 given the narrow focus of the issues but I will set it 10 anyway. Now, instead of, usually, what I usually do 11 at this point is I set up summary judgement motions, 12 but I'm thinking it might be better to just set up a 13 telephone conference at this point in mid October. 14 And I'm going to turn to you first, Mr. Berman. Would 15 that be acceptable to you or would you prefer that I 16 simply go through and do summary judgement scheduling 17 at this time? 18 MR. BERMAN: That will be acceptable, 19 just a phone conference. 20 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dobitsch, is 21 that acceptable to you? 22 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, a phone conference 23 would be fine. Thank you. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's take a 25 look at our calendars. And I have, the first threeFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 35

1 weeks of October are booked. Oh, dear. Actually my 2 entire October is booked. So I'm going to go into the 3 last week of October. How about October 29th? Mr. 4 Berman, is there a, is that date available to you and 5 if so do you have any black out time during that day? 6 MR. BERMAN: Yes, I'm available the 7 whole day. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dobitsch, how 9 about you? 10 MR. DOBITSCH: I'm available also. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Berman, any preference 12 for a time? 13 MR. BERMAN: No preference. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Dobitsch, same 15 question. 16 MR. DOBITSCH: No, no preference. 17 THE COURT: Then why don't we start the 18 day off and do this at 10:00 a.m. and I'll schedule 19 this for one hour just to be on the safe side. And 20 this will be a pre-hearing status conference just to 21 make sure that all the discovery has been taken care 22 of, that the parties are clear about what the issues 23 are and to determine whether or not the parties have 24 reached agreements on any matters in dispute to narrow 25 the focus of the trial. Now, my question to you atFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 36

1 this point is do you want to set the trial dates at 2 this point or do you want to wait until after the 3 telephone conference? Starting with you, Mr. Berman. 4 MR. BERMAN: Either way would be fine. 5 THE COURT: Mr. Dobitsch, any 6 preference? 7 MR. DOBITSCH: Same for me. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then why don't 9 we do this. I'm going to suggest that we set the 10 trial now and the reason I say that is because my 11 trial calendar seems to be getting booked up. And I'd 12 rather set it now and if it needs to be changed for 13 any reason in October we can always do that, but this 14 way it's on my calendar now and it's on your 15 calendars, too. So two days. Let me see what I can 16 find. I'm looking at my calendar which is why you're 17 hearing silence from me at this point. It's either 18 too soon or too far, so let me see if I can find 19 something. Well, I'm glad we decided to set it today. 20 I am looking at the week of March 8th, 2015. Mr. 21 Berman, do you have time available that week? 22 MR. BERMAN: Let me just check on one 23 thing here. Which week did you say? 24 THE COURT: The week of March 8? 25 MR. BERMAN: Yeah. I'm available thatFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 37

1 week. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dobitsch, how 3 about you? 4 MR. DOBITSCH: I am also. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's plan on 6 convening on Tuesday, March 10, 2015. We'll reserve 7 March 11, 2015. And then for those of us who might 8 have to travel in early we can have March 9 and March 9 12 as travel days. And what I'm going to do is I'm 10 going to give you a due date for exchange of witnesses 11 and exhibits that's fairly close in time to that 12 period. How about January 28th for the exchange of 13 witness lists and exhibits and we'll also use that 14 date for written stipulations and agreed motions in 15 limine. Would that be acceptable to you, Mr. Berman? 16 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 17 THE COURT: And, Mr. Dobitsch? 18 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 19 THE COURT: Okay. What I will do then 20 is I will, I will not set up any summary judgement 21 motions at this point, although you are always welcome 22 to file them. And, Mr. Dobitsch, what that means is 23 that if you at the end of discovery find that the 24 evidence is so clearly placed in your corner that as a 25 matter of law there is no other answer for the CourtFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 38

1 but to grant your request for relief, then you file a 2 motion for summary disposition. 3 MR. DOBITSCH: Motion for summary ... 4 THE COURT: Judgement. 5 MR. DOBITSCH: ... disposition. 6 THE COURT: Yes, but those require 7 special pleadings because you have to show that there 8 are no material issues of fact in dispute and that the 9 law favors your side. So many cases don't really 10 qualify for that, but it's always available to a party 11 just like Mr. Berman could file a motion for summary 12 judgement as well. With a civil penalty the 13 likelihood that you would have a summary judgement is 14 less sure because there's always a range for civil 15 penalty proposals typically anyway, but I will leave 16 it to the two of you to discuss that privately. 17 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 18 affirmatively.) 19 THE COURT: At our discussion on 20 October 29, 2014, we can always set something like 21 that up if the parties think that it's needed prior to 22 the trial in March, but I'm not going to set it up now 23 as a matter of course. I will also note that I will 24 put in my litigation order how to mark exhibits so 25 that you know. Essentially, Mr. Dobitsch, you're theFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 39

1 responding party so your exhibits would be marked R 2 for respondent dash 1, R dash 2, R dash 3 and so 3 forth. Each party should always have a cover sheet 4 that identifies each exhibit in a table so that it's 5 clear what your exhibits are and if you have a large 6 number of exhibits please put them in a three ring 7 binder and tab them for the Court. There will also be 8 in the litigation schedule information about how to 9 schedule pre-hearing conferences on my calendar. If 10 you need to reach me or have a conference prior to 11 October 29, 2014, typically what you want to do is 12 confer with each other first, talk to each other about 13 some mutually available dates, and then the moving 14 party would contact Mr. Smith, the attorney who helps 15 me with my caseload, and he would be checking my 16 calendar against your proposed dates and then letting 17 you know which would work and helping you set that up 18 on my calendar. And I know that Mr. Berman has done 19 that before. And, Mr. Berman, my understanding is 20 that it's been a fairly streamlined way of doing it. 21 Is that still working for you and your ... 22 MR. BERMAN: Yes. Yes, it has been 23 working. 24 THE COURT: Okay, very good. In 25 addition, this litigation order will talk about whatFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 40

1 to do if you send your friend across the aisle a 2 request for discovery and you don't get the discovery 3 back. Typically the very first thing you do is you 4 contact your friend across the aisle and ask him about 5 it. If that doesn't reach resolution for you, then 6 you can move to compel and the litigation order will 7 talk about that. Mr. Dobitsch, I would be remiss if I 8 did not say to you that you are always free to hire 9 counsel during this process, but if you do I would 10 recommend that you do so sooner rather than later if 11 only because attorneys' calendars book up and you may 12 be sure to hire somebody who can be available for the 13 trial. 14 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 15 THE COURT: If you decide to continue 16 on for yourself that's great. Other people have done 17 that as well. But I would strongly encourage you to 18 do some research and read some decisions and cases 19 about what other people have done in your position ... 20 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 21 affirmatively.) 22 THE COURT: ... when they have argued 23 that the fine was too high and what evidence you may 24 submit that's persuasive. Often times people come to 25 the Court and say well, it's just not fair or I, IFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 41

1 don't think I should have to pay that but I'm not 2 going to tell you anything about my finances or my 3 business's finances because it's none of your 4 business. Well, you're welcome to take those 5 positions but that doesn't make it very helpful to 6 your side because the case law is such that if you are 7 arguing, for example, that you can't afford the fine, 8 that the business can't afford the fine, part of your 9 defense would then be to show with evidence ... 10 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 11 affirmatively.) 12 THE COURT: ... the state of your 13 business so that I could say yes, I agree with you, 14 the business can't afford it, as opposed to gosh, he 15 told me and so it must be true. I cannot accept gosh, 16 you told me so it must be true. That's not sufficient 17 evidence. I'm just forewarning you. 18 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 19 affirmatively.) 20 THE COURT: So I would strongly 21 recommend that you read some decisions that have been 22 issued by this office and by the FAA Administrator 23 about penalty assessments so that you have a much 24 better idea. 25 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (IndicatingFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 42

1 affirmatively.) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Berman will likely be 3 sending you the sanction guidance as part of his 4 disclosure in which there's printed material about how 5 the FAA calculates these penalties and what they 6 utilize as guidance for their calculations. And all 7 of that is very important to review and be familiar 8 with before you come to court. 9 MR. DOBITSCH: Mm-hmm. (Indicating 10 affirmatively.) 11 THE COURT: So with that, on behalf of 12 the FAA, Mr. Berman, is there anything you would like 13 to add or correct to the record before we close or any 14 question you might have? 15 MR. BERMAN: No, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: And, Mr. Dobitsch, on 17 behalf of yourself, I know this has been a very short 18 conference but I'm hoping that we took care of at 19 least some preliminary matters for your client. 20 Anything you would like to add or correct or any 21 question you would like to ask for your client? 22 MR. DOBITSCH: No, I'm okay here. 23 Thank you. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Then I'll thank you 25 both very much for your presence today. It appearsFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 43

1 our business is complete. I'll be sending out an 2 order setting litigation dates and procedures probably 3 within the next 24 hours. With that, we can go off 4 the record and I wish you all a very good day. Thank 5 you. 6 MR. BERMAN: Thank you, Judge. 7 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. Thanks, Your 8 Honor. Have a great day. 9 (WHEREUPON, the Teleconference Hearing concluded at 10 1:07 p.m.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 44

1 STIPULATION 2 3 The foregoing matter was taken on the date, and 4 at the time and place set out on the title page 5 hereof. 6 7 It was requested that the matter be taken by the 8 reporter and that the same be reduced to typewritten 9 form. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 45

1 C ERTIFICATE OF REPORTER AND SECURE ENCRYPTED 2 SI GNATURE AND DELIVERY OF CERTIFIED TRANSCRIPT 3 I, GREIGAITKEN , Notary Public, do hereby 4 cert ify that the forgoing matter was reported by 5 sten ographic and/or mechanical means, that same was 6 redu ced to written form, that the transcript prepared 7 by m e or under my direction, is a true and accurate 8 reco rd of same to the best of my knowledge and 9 abil ity; that there is no relation nor employment by 10 any attorney or counsel employed by the parties 11 here to, nor financial or otherwise interest in the 12 acti on filed or its outcome. 13 Thi s transcript and certificate have been 14 digi tally signed and securely delivered through our 15 encr yption server. 16 IN WITNESS HEREOF, I have here unto set my hand 17 and delivered through encrypted server this 11th day 18 of J uly, 2014. 19 20 21 22 /s/G REIG D. W. AITKEN 23 COUR T REPORTER, NOTARY 24 NOTA RY REGISTRATION NUMBER: 7324050 25 MY C OMMISSION EXPIRES: SEPTEMBER 30, 2014FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 46

$ $46,000 31:22 $46,200 8:22

1 1 5:5 9:8 9:24 10:1 10:3 10:14 10:23 10:24 12:22 13:2 13:6 13:14 13:22 15:1 32:21 32:25 39:2 1:04 3:3 1:07 43:10 10 37:6 10:00 35:18 100 8:3 11 15:12 30:24 32:17 32:18 32:20 37:7 12 37:9 15 3:9 15th 11:25 17th 12:16 12:18 19th 30:15

2 2 9:24 10:1 10:2 10:3 10:3 10:14 10:14 10:23 12:25 13:14 13:14 14:1 14:6 14:11 14:12 14:12 15:1 15:1 15:4 39:2 2011 9:8 9:9 13:16 2012 11:25 2013 12:16 12:18 2014 3:2 3:7 3:10 15:12 30:24 32:17 32:18 32:20 32:21 32:25 34:6 38:20 39:11 2015 36:20 37:6 37:7 20th 34:6 23 9:8 13:16 24 43:3 26th 30:15 28 3:2 3:6 28th 30:23 37:12 29 38:20 39:11 293 14:8 29th 35:3

3 3 10:3 10:14 13:2 13:22 14:6 15:1 39:2

4 4 10:3 10:14 14:13 15:4

8 8 36:24 8th36:20

9 9 9:9 37:8

A a.m 35:18 Absolutely 7:25 9:11 accept 17:13 41:15 acceptable 34:15 34:18 34:21 37:15 accomplished 18:16 According3:8 accordingly 7:15 account30:11 32:22 accurate 9:1 across 24:20 40:1 40:4 actual 6:5 6:5 actually 4:8 9:9 11:4 14:3 17:25 35:1 add42:13 42:20 addition 3:19 8:7 20:15 20:16 39:25 address 14:24 31:8 Administrativ e 18:12 Administrator 41:22 admissible 21:4 admission 26:1 32:13 admissions 5:3 25:22 26:9 admit7:11 26:10 admitted5:22 10:5 10:7 21:12 admitting 6:20 6:20 26:17 advisor 3:19 affirmatively 7:8 13:4 18:9 21:1 21:15 22:6 23:9FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 47

24:13 24:22 26:14 26:22 27:9 27:16 27:22 28:2 28:14 28:20 29:3 29:22 31:14 33:3 33:9 33:21 38:18 40:21 41:11 41:19 42:1 42:10 afford 41:7 41:8 41:14 afternoon 3:21 3:22 against39:16 Agency4:24 agent6:16 19:1 agent's 20:10 agreed 15:1 37:14 agreement 8:20 20:23 agreements 35:24 ahead20:22 ah-hah23:21 Air 3:5 3:16 5:25 10:25 13:7 Aircraft9:9 aisle 24:20 40:1 40:4 allegation 13:11 15:4 15:19 allegations 5:4 6:17 10:5 31:21 alleged 5:20 6:6 8:23 9:7 14:20 Allentown 15:24 16:1 16:7 16:24 17:1 17:2 17:5 17:13 allot 15:17 allowed

19:10 already15:14 24:9 32:23 am 3:13 3:13 7:24 17:2 36:20 37:4 among7:17 amount8:16 8:22 32:3 answer4:1 4:4 5:10 5:19 5:22 7:4 7:6 7:11 9:6 27:3 37:25 anticipate 25:14 25:18 25:21 anything 5:9 5:14 5:18 9:14 27:25 29:6 41:2 42:12 42:20 anyway 34:10 38:15 apart 23:15 apologize 14:2 appears 15:2 42:25 appellate 10:6 apple 20:2 appropriate 4:19 8:22 April 14:19 14:20 area 16:11 17:10 argued 40:22 arguing41:7 arise 24:10 arriving 18:18 ascertain 7:19 ascertained 7:23 aside 10:8 asserting5:2 32:3 assertion 17:9 assessments 41:23 assigned19:6

assist21:24 assistance 7:18 assuming 18:15 19:15 attention 26:11 attorney3:12 3:19 18:23 39:14 attorneys 24:9 40:11 August 33:24 34:6 available 30:20 35:4 35:6 35:10 36:21 36:25 38:10 39:13 40:12 aware 16:22 16:22 17:4 17:6

B barely8:14 basic 32:5 32:16 basically 8:12 9:16 12:1 17:15 31:18 basics 23:12 25:15 bear 11:11 11:21 12:2FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 48

begins 10:1 10:24 behalf4:4 27:14 42:11 42:17 belief6:10 8:3 24:2 beliefs 23:1 believe 5:11 5:15 6:25 23:13 23:14 believed9:13 bench 18:21 18:23 18:24 Berman3:13 3:22 4:3 4:6 4:9 4:14 5:2 5:8 5:10 5:14 5:23 6:7 6:14 6:19 6:24 7:10 8:19 10:17 10:18 12:5 12:11 12:15 15:21 15:25 16:5 16:9 16:15 16:20 19:2 19:16 19:24 20:1 20:7 20:22 22:15 22:17 22:21 23:17 23:19 25:8 25:14 25:21 25:25 27:18 28:3 30:2 30:4 30:7 31:10 33:5 33:11 33:12 33:22 34:1 34:14 34:18 35:4 35:6 35:11 35:13 36:3 36:4 36:21 36:22 36:25 37:15 37:16 38:11 39:18 39:19 39:22 42:2 42:12 42:15 43:6 Berman's 19:10 19:15 25:3 best24:19 25:11 better 34:12 41:24 binder39:7 bit3:24 15:15 16:7 18:5 26:20 29:9 bite 20:2 black 32:14 32:22 35:5 blown 9:20 book 40:11 booked 35:1 35:2 36:11 books 21:11 brief 26:5 bring22:1 brought18:12 bunch 24:15 burden19:3 business 41:4 41:8 41:13 41:14 43:1 business's 41:3

C calculated 31:23 calculates 42:5 calculations 42:6 calendar 30:22 36:11 36:14 36:16 39:9 39:16 39:18 calendars 34:25 36:15 40:11 car 16:21 care 29:17 35:21 42:18 case 3:25 15:11 15:15 16:3 17:18 17:23 17:25 18:16 19:18 19:19 19:20 19:21 20:10 20:11 20:19 21:23 22:1 24:2 24:3 25:17 25:19 27:7 41:6 caseload 39:15 cases 18:11 18:24 20:11 22:22 23:23 28:16 29:17 38:9 40:18 catching25:6 certain 23:3 26:10 26:25 27:5 certainly 7:21 8:10 28:23 certified 12:19 challenge 21:18 challenging 22:8 chance 4:3 10:11 10:12 19:24 22:22 22:23 change 23:18 26:19 changed

36:12 chat7:5 check 7:3 9:18 14:19 29:19FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 49

29:24 36:22 checking5:17 39:15 chief 20:10 choose 18:7 chooses 20:1 chronological ly13:2 circumstance 6:4 21:25 circumstances 7:17 Cirrus 9:9 city 16:8 16:18 civil 4:23 5:6 6:4 6:18 6:22 8:8 10:16 11:3 11:14 11:22 11:24 12:2 15:20 28:22 38:12 38:14 clarity10:11 clear 35:22 39:5 clearly 21:7 37:24 clerk 18:22 client7:5 22:15 24:5 26:24 27:14 42:19 42:21 close 8:20 16:15 16:15 33:11 33:15 37:11 42:13 codify31:4 Cody 3:18 collaboration 32:9 comfortable 30:3 coming 18:17 30:11 comma 14:15 committed6:9 communication s 5:24 company21:17 32:2 32:3 company's 24:8 compel 40:6 complaint5:5 7:1 9:7 9:23 10:2 10:14 10:24 11:5 11:5 11:10 11:15 12:6 12:9 12:19 12:23 13:15 13:22 14:1 14:3 14:11 15:2 15:5 32:1 complete 43:1 complex28:10 28:16 compliance 4:17 8:4 8:6 9:13 computation 31:21 concluded 43:9 confer39:12 conference 3:8 34:13 34:19 34:22 35:20 36:3 39:10 42:18 conferences 39:9 confident 5:21 consider 24:18 constantly 23:25 contact31:18 39:14 40:4 contained 15:4 contention 4:20 4:23 continue 15:8 40:15 convened3:7 convening 37:6 copy 11:5 12:7 12:8 corner37:24 correct 5:17 14:7 30:6 42:13 42:20 costly28:24 counsel 40:9 count5:5 10:1 10:3 10:14 10:23 13:14 14:12 15:1 15:4 couple 29:17 29:24 course 38:23 court3:4 3:23 4:7 4:11 5:1 5:9 5:17 6:2 6:13 6:15 6:23 7:2 7:9 8:17 9:21 10:19 10:21 11:4 11:9 11:13 11:18 12:3 12:21 12:25 13:5 13:10 13:13 13:21 14:7 14:10 14:21 16:4 16:6 16:12 16:13 16:19 16:22 17:4 17:8 17:23 18:2 18:4 18:10 18:12 18:22 18:25 20:15FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 50

21:2 21:16 21:22 22:7 22:13 22:20 23:5 23:10 24:14 24:17 24:23 25:2 25:20 25:24 26:4 26:8 26:15 26:19 26:23 27:10 27:17 27:23 28:3 28:7 28:9 28:15 28:21 28:25 29:4 29:11 29:15 29:23 30:6 30:9 30:18 30:21 31:15 33:4 33:10 33:22 34:2 34:5 34:20 34:24 35:8 35:11 35:14 35:17 36:5 36:8 36:24 37:2 37:5 37:17 37:19 37:25 38:4 38:6 38:19 39:7 39:24 40:15 40:22 40:25 41:12 41:20 42:2 42:8 42:11 42:16 42:24 courthouse 16:8 17:5 17:16 18:14 18:15 18:17 courtroom 18:18 18:19 18:19 Court's 3:9 3:25 cover 12:6 39:3 cross 19:11 19:11 19:25 20:5 21:20

D dash 39:2 39:2 39:2 date 29:24 32:20 33:24 35:4 37:10 37:14 dated3:9 11:25 12:15 dates 15:13 32:15 36:1 39:13 39:16 43:2 day16:2 17:25 30:16 35:5 35:7 35:18 43:4 43:8 days 7:25 16:3 27:3 27:12 30:8 30:12 32:22 36:15 37:9 deadline 30:24 dear 35:1 December 12:15 12:18 decide 40:15 decided

36:19 decides 33:7 33:12 decision 3:11 decisions 40:18 41:21 default17:15 defense 6:5 6:16 6:17 41:9 defensive 19:19 19:20 19:21 definitely 8:2 denying3:10 depending 23:4 depose 23:6 depositions 23:5 25:22 28:4 28:23 description 26:5 desk 18:22 detail 7:22 determine 35:23 different 15:7 19:12 22:24 23:11 24:5 26:9 29:24 31:5 direct19:5 19:7 19:13 19:23 disagree 4:24 13:11 13:18 14:17 14:18 disagreement 14:23 15:3 disclosure 31:7 31:20 33:16 34:6 42:4 disclosures 30:25 30:25 discover 22:23 discoverable 31:9 31:16 discovery 9:3 14:24 15:6 15:17 15:18 22:18 22:21 22:24 23:15 23:16 23:21 25:7 25:7 25:11 25:15 26:6 27:13 28:23 29:7FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 51

29:13 29:18 29:19 30:3 31:2 32:8 32:10 32:16 32:19 32:19 33:11 33:15 33:17 33:19 35:21 37:23 40:2 40:2 discuss 38:16 discussed4:9 discussion 7:10 15:5 38:19 disposition 38:2 38:5 dispute 4:8 4:12 4:15 5:5 6:9 8:21 10:9 15:19 15:23 17:20 17:21 23:1 31:10 35:24 38:8 disputed4:16 disputing7:1 distance 16:23 district 6:1 16:8 17:5 18:14 18:25 Dobitsch3:17 4:2 4:4 7:3 7:5 7:7 7:13 9:5 9:11 10:9 10:19 10:20 10:22 11:2 11:7 11:11 11:16 11:20 12:4 12:6 12:10 12:13 12:17 12:22 12:24 13:3 13:9 13:12 13:20 14:5 14:8 14:18 16:23 17:2 17:6 17:17 17:22 18:3 18:8 20:13 20:25 21:14 21:21 22:5 22:12 22:19 23:8 24:12 24:16 24:21 25:1 25:24 26:3 26:7 26:13 26:18 26:21 27:8 27:15 27:21 28:1 28:8 28:13 28:19 29:2 29:6 29:8 29:12 29:21 30:9 30:12 30:19 31:13 32:23 32:24 33:2 33:8 33:20 34:2 34:4 34:20 34:22 35:8 35:10 35:14 35:16 36:5 36:7 37:2 37:4 37:17 37:18 37:22 38:3 38:5 38:17 38:25 40:7 40:14 40:20 41:10 41:18 41:25 42:9 42:16 42:22 43:7 Dobitsch's 31:23 32:14 docket3:5 documentary 20:18 documents 20:20 25:16 25:18 27:5 31:20 dollar31:22 done 8:11 18:24 28:9 29:16 31:3 39:18 40:16 40:19 DOT 12:19 downtown 16:11 drive 17:3 due 33:24 37:10 during 13:15 13:23 14:14 14:24 19:11 20:19 35:5 40:9 duties 33:13

E early 28:6 37:8 easier 21:23 24:23 eastern 16:16 educated8:10 eight16:21 either 14:24 21:8 31:2 33:17 34:1 36:4 36:17 else 3:15 7:12 27:25 32:1 employee 33:13 enclosed12:7 encourage 40:17 Endless 3:5 3:15 4:5 5:24 10:24 13:7 33:6 engage 23:5 entails 18:5FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 52

entire 35:2 error 14:4 essence 18:11 31:7 essentially 14:25 18:16 19:6 38:25 everybody 3:21 19:20 everybody's 29:25 everything 12:14 everything's 29:20 evidence 19:2 19:4 20:4 20:18 21:12 37:24 40:23 41:9 41:17 examination 19:5 19:7 19:11 19:12 19:13 20:5 examine 19:25 example 21:9 31:10 33:5 41:7 excessive 4:24 exchange 24:11 32:4 32:7 32:9 32:16 37:10 37:12 Excuse 3:15

exhibit 21:6 39:4 exhibits 20:17 20:20 20:21 20:23 21:2 37:11 37:13 38:24 39:1 39:5 39:6 expert33:5 33:7 33:14 33:18 34:7 34:8 expired

15:14

F FAA 3:11 5:25 7:18 8:24 9:23 12:19 15:2 17:9 31:11 33:13 41:22 42:5 42:12 FAA-2013-0848 3:6 FAA's 3:10 9:7 10:2 10:23 12:8 facilities 16:8 17:5 17:14 facility 18:15 facing18:23 fact5:20 5:24 10:7 14:23 21:5 38:8 Factoryville 16:25 facts 4:16 7:1 26:10 factual 4:15 5:4 5:13 6:16 7:11 10:4 13:11 15:19 17:20 25:9 28:22 fair 40:25 fairly5:21 8:19 18:12 23:10 27:24 28:17 37:11 39:20 faith 6:10 familiar 42:7 favors 38:9 federal 16:7 16:11 16:12 17:5 17:16 18:14 18:25 feel 7:18 field22:3 fielding 21:20 file 30:5 37:22 38:1 38:11 filed4:1 4:4 11:10 15:2 15:11 filing32:10 final 11:3 11:13 12:1 finances 32:2 41:2 41:3 finding11:23 17:14 fine 8:22 34:1 34:23 36:4 40:23 41:7 41:8 finish32:17 finished20:7 29:19 firm 9:4 first9:25 13:17 15:20 19:1 19:2 19:4 29:17 34:14 34:25 39:12 40:3 five 14:3 14:11 flight5:25 14:19 flights 4:16 8:1 8:2 8:23 9:6 9:12 9:12 13:24 14:14 flip 12:13FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 53

flown 8:24 fly7:24 7:25 focus 9:23 10:8 10:16 20:9 34:9 35:25 foremost9:25 forewarning 41:17 form 19:8 21:9 27:19 27:20 32:11 formal 18:13 23:10 31:1 format19:5 19:6 19:11 21:4 26:25 forms 23:3 26:9 forth 13:25 15:6 29:1 32:4 39:3 forty-five 17:3 frame 32:14 free 40:8 friend 24:20 40:1 40:4 friendly 24:20

G general

25:6 29:9 32:4 32:8 32:9 32:18 32:19 getting21:18 36:11 gist29:9 given 3:25 15:18 15:22 32:14 34:9 gives 9:2 23:24 giving9:17 33:13 glad14:21 36:19 goal 30:1 gone 8:10 8:13 9:14 gosh 41:14 41:15 gotten17:8 grant 38:1 great 40:16 43:8 guess 7:15 8:7 8:7 11:25 25:11 guidance 42:3 42:6

H hand21:3 handle 21:23 29:14 hats 22:8

haven't4:9 having16:11 head30:15 hearing3:1 8:18 8:18 8:25 12:8 14:24 16:11 34:7 36:17 43:9 hearings 3:18 18:14 helped 23:18 helper22:1 helpful 23:22 41:5 helping39:17 helps 12:5 12:12 23:23 39:14 herein12:7 he's 19:16 19:17 25:4 25:4 28:4 28:5 32:2 hide 9:14 high 40:23 hire 23:5 33:7 40:8 40:12 Hold11:17 holder 10:25 13:8 Honor 11:23 20:14 34:4 42:15 43:8 hoping42:18 hour 17:3 35:19 hours 16:17 16:21 43:3

I I'd9:13 16:2 30:4 30:7 36:11 idea 18:6 41:24 identificatio n15:22 identified 13:6 21:7 identifies 32:5 39:4 identify 31:11 31:17 31:23 31:25 32:1 33:5 I'll 7:3 7:3 10:15 10:21 10:22 10:22 15:9 15:20 18:4 18:4 18:6 29:9 31:2 35:18 42:24 43:1 I'm 3:13 3:14 4:2 5:17 6:8 6:19FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 54

8:14 8:17 8:18 8:25 8:25 9:1 9:22 9:23 9:24 9:25 10:5 11:7 11:11 11:20 11:21 11:23 14:21 16:22 16:22 17:6 17:7 24:8 25:5 25:8 26:4 29:13 29:15 32:24 32:24 33:22 34:12 34:14 35:2 35:6 35:10 36:9 36:16 36:19 36:25 37:9 37:9 38:22 41:1 41:17 42:18 42:22 imagine 17:25 immediately 30:16 important 42:7 Inc 3:5 3:16 10:25 13:7 include 19:13 19:13 32:10 including 30:4 indicating 7:7 13:3 18:8 20:25 21:14 22:5 23:8 24:12 24:21 26:13 26:21 27:8 27:15 27:21 28:1 28:13 28:19 29:2 29:21 31:13 33:2 33:8 33:20 38:17 40:20 41:10 41:18 41:25 42:9 individuals 21:25 31:9 inform 25:17 informal 23:3 information 21:8 22:15 22:16 22:23 23:2 23:17 24:11 26:11 27:6 31:9 31:16 31:18 31:24 32:2 32:5 32:11 32:17 39:8 initial 30:25 30:25 31:7 32:7 32:9 32:16 inquiry19:8 19:12 19:22 ins 29:25 inspector 31:11 instead 14:3 34:10 insure 29:25 intent7:11 intern3:20 interpret 6:10 interrogatori es 25:15 25:25 26:23 27:1 32:12 investigation 31:12 involve 33:13 Irene 3:20 isn't 10:15 issue 4:15 4:15 5:24 10:15 17:20 17:21 25:9 28:22 issued 3:9 41:22 issues 4:8 4:12 15:18 21:3 28:17 29:18 34:9 35:22 38:8 issuing31:2 I've 12:17 16:10 17:8 17:22 17:24 17:24 21:24 29:16

J January37:12 joint15:10 Jr 3:17 Judge 43:6 judgement 34:11 34:16 37:20 38:4 38:12 38:13 July 30:15 33:23 June 30:24 32:17 32:18 32:20 juror 17:24 18:20 20:12

K kinds 22:24 23:11 knew17:11 knowledge 21:8

L Labor 30:16 lack 7:18 large 39:5 last3:9 10:11FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 55

16:2 17:10 20:2 35:3 late 33:23 later 40:10 latter33:23 law3:20 37:25 38:9 41:6 lawyers 27:13 lay3:16 leading19:14 leads 3:11 15:5 learn 9:15 22:22 22:25 23:23 least42:19 leave 5:19 38:15 led5:10 5:15 left-hand 18:22 legal 7:24 less 27:1 27:4 28:16 38:14 let's 7:5 13:13 13:21 25:6 30:1 34:24 37:5 letter7:21 8:4 8:13 12:6 letting39:16 likelihood 38:13 likely28:4 28:5 31:9 31:11 31:17 32:21 42:2 limine 37:15 lists 37:13 litigants 20:9 litigating 23:22 litigation 3:8 3:24 9:4 22:17 24:4 24:19 28:10 31:3 38:24 39:8 39:25 40:6 43:2 little 3:23 15:15 16:6 18:5 28:16 29:9 32:21 locale 17:15 long14:3 15:21 17:18 25:13 lot25:14

M main 4:14 March 11:25 15:12 36:20 36:24 37:6 37:7 37:8 37:8 38:22 mark 38:24 marked 20:20 39:1 material 38:8 42:4 matter3:5 5:20 8:11 25:9 25:10 37:25 38:23 matters 5:13 5:16 25:7 35:24 42:19 may3:2 3:6 3:9 4:12 5:3 10:9 18:20 21:22 23:14 23:16 23:16 23:19 24:14 29:4 34:8 40:11 40:23 maybe 18:10 mean 8:8 17:23 21:5 26:2 means 19:2 28:4 37:22 mentioned 7:20 method 20:21 mid33:23 34:13 mind23:19 minute's 17:3 misunderstand ing4:21 misunderstood 4:22 mitigating 4:22 6:3 6:17 6:21 6:22 7:16 Mm-hmm 7:7 13:3 18:8 20:25 21:14 22:5 23:8 24:12 24:21 26:13 26:21 27:8 27:15 27:21 28:1 28:13 28:19 29:2 29:21 31:13 33:2 33:8 33:20 38:17 40:20 41:10 41:18 41:25 42:9 moment7:5 12:2 12:4 15:8 23:21 monetary 17:21 months 9:19 motion3:10 38:2 38:3 38:11 motions 34:11 37:14 37:21 Mountain 3:5 4:5FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 56

10:25 13:7 33:6 Mountains 3:15 5:25 move 9:16 40:6 moves 10:1 14:1 moving13:2 39:13 mutually 39:13 myself7:23 8:9

N narrative 19:8 21:19 narrow 28:18 34:9 35:24 nature 18:13 nay10:12 nearest17:15 necessary 14:5 negotiations 24:7 neither 34:8 Nemesio 3:20 ninety30:7 30:12 32:22 none 24:15 41:3 north 17:2 note 38:23 notice 11:3 11:13 11:22 11:24 12:1 numeral 12:25

O oath 22:4 objections 22:3 obscene 8:16 Obviously 15:12 occurred9:7 October 9:9 32:21 32:25 34:13 35:1 35:2 35:3 35:3 36:13 38:20 39:11 odd31:22 office 3:17 3:19 3:20 6:1 15:12 41:22 Oh4:14 35:1 okay 3:14 4:11 5:1 5:9 6:13 6:23 7:2 7:20 8:17 9:21 10:19 10:21 11:9 11:20 12:3 12:10 12:18 12:19 12:24 13:13 13:21 14:6 14:10 14:21 16:4 16:13 16:19 16:23 17:4 18:2 20:15 21:21 22:13 22:19 25:20 25:24 26:4 26:7 26:18 28:8 29:11 29:13 29:15 30:9 30:18 30:21 30:22 30:23 34:2 34:5 34:20 34:24 35:8 36:8 37:2 37:5 37:19 39:24 40:14 42:22 42:24 43:7 old25:3 25:4 older 25:4 open 5:19 operated9:18 operator 8:14 opportunities 24:10 opportunity 23:24 opposed

16:20 25:2 41:14 option19:19 options 24:5 24:6 order 3:9 3:10 4:1 4:2 31:3 38:24 39:25 40:6 43:2 original 12:8 other's 22:22 22:25 23:23

P p.m 3:3 43:10 page 9:8 9:24 10:1 10:2 10:23 12:22 13:14 13:22 13:22 14:1 14:11 14:11 14:12 29:25 pages 9:24 14:3 Palmer7:24 8:9 14:15 14:19 paper 8:6 papers 15:7 paperwork 7:22 paragraph 10:24 11:17 13:6 13:14 13:17 13:22 13:23 13:25 15:4 paragraphs 10:3 10:14FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 57

13:1 15:1 parcel 24:18 particular 3:25 13:25 33:24 parties 3:7 5:6 14:23 15:3 15:23 17:13 23:22 24:4 28:10 29:18 32:8 34:7 35:22 35:23 38:21 party 19:6 19:9 19:25 27:1 38:10 39:1 39:3 39:14 pay26:11 28:24 28:25 32:3 41:1 penalties 42:5 penalty 4:23 5:6 6:4 6:18 6:22 8:8 8:16 10:16 11:3 11:14 11:22 11:25 12:2 15:20 25:10 28:22 31:22 38:12 38:15 41:23

Pennsylvania 15:24 16:1 16:7 16:24 17:1 17:14 people 19:15 19:20 20:8 20:16 23:12 28:15 31:17 40:16 40:19 40:24 percent8:3 perception 8:21 perceptions 22:25 perhaps 16:2 25:22 period 9:8 13:16 22:18 22:21 23:15 23:16 23:21 28:24 30:3 32:25 33:11 33:15 37:12 person 21:16 25:4 31:15 persuasive 40:24 Philadelphia 16:14 16:16 phone 34:19 34:22 photographs 21:9 21:10 27:5 physical 20:17 20:19 piece 23:17 pilot 4:18 7:24 9:18 31:25 Pittsburgh 16:14 16:20 placed 37:24 plain 8:14 plan 21:17 37:5 planned

30:13 pleadings 38:7 pleasant 24:25 24:25 please 12:7 39:6 point 8:20 9:22 19:18 21:13 25:12 34:11 34:13 36:1 36:2 36:17 37:21 portion 21:23 22:17 position 40:19 positions 41:5 possible 18:13 potential 23:25 potentially 20:6 31:24 33:23 practitioner 25:5 pre 14:24 preceded12:6 preceding4:2 prefer34:15 preference 33:25 34:3 35:11 35:13 35:16 36:6 pre-hearing 35:20 39:9 preliminary 7:10 42:19 prepare 22:10 23:23 prepared 20:18 21:12 presence 42:25 present 3:17 17:19 19:1 19:3 19:4 20:3 20:6 20:8 20:18 20:21 21:8 28:7 presentation 20:10 presented5:4FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 58

21:12 21:20 presenting 19:7 19:21 22:1 presumed 26:16 pretty29:14 previous 14:20 previously 15:11 primary5:5 printed

42:4 prior 32:25 38:21 39:10 privately 38:16 probably 27:25 43:2 problem

17:17 30:17 procedural 15:10 procedures 43:2 proceeding 21:11 proceedings 18:24 process 9:15 40:9 produce 25:16 27:5 28:5 production 25:16 26:1 27:4 32:12

proffered 15:13 proof 19:3 proportion 9:20 proposal 15:20 proposals 38:15 proposed6:17 8:22 11:3 11:24 12:2 15:10 15:13 25:10 39:16 propounded 26:24 prosecuting 6:15 19:1 20:9 protect10:6 pull 15:9 purported7:4 purposes 10:11 pursue 18:7 puts 19:16 Q qualify38:10 question 5:20 19:10 20:5 35:15 35:25 42:14 42:21 questions 19:9 19:14 19:14 21:20 22:2 22:10 26:24 28:6 28:11 31:6 33:17 quietly14:16 quite 22:8 26:20 quote 13:7 13:8 13:15 13:16 13:23 13:24 14:14 14:15

R raised 18:20 22:3 range 38:14 rather 36:12 40:10 reach 39:10 40:5 reached

35:24 ready 14:2 20:18 real 8:21 10:8 really 10:16 38:9 reason9:1 22:20 33:16 36:10 36:13 reasonable 30:10 30:13 rebuttal 20:3 20:6 20:8 recall 16:10 received 15:11 recommend 40:10 41:21 recommendatio n17:13 reconsider 23:25 record 3:4 3:9 3:12 10:6 42:13 43:4 referenced 13:24 14:14 31:25 references 31:5 regarding 5:20 regularly 33:13 regulations 4:18 4:22 7:14 7:16 7:22 8:24 9:14 31:5 relations 24:20 relationship 21:3 relevant 21:10 reliable 21:6FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 59

21:7 relief38:1 relying27:6 remaining 25:10 remembering 30:14 remiss 40:7 repetitive 10:10 reporter 28:7 29:1 reporters 23:6 representativ e 3:16 24:8 represented 3:12 3:16 representing 21:17 22:14 request 12:8 15:25 23:2 23:2 25:16 25:22 25:25 26:1 26:9 27:4 31:1 32:12 32:13 38:1 40:2 requests 22:16 26:5 26:10 27:4 27:18 32:10 require 31:1 38:6 required 20:17 requires 31:7 research29:9 40:18 reserve 16:3 37:6 reserved 15:22 resolution 24:6 40:5 resources 18:6 respond

26:15 respondent 3:13 3:15 4:20 5:4 5:11 14:25 39:2 Respondent's 5:10 5:19 5:22 responding 19:9 19:25 22:16 39:1 response 7:13 26:12 responses 30:5 responsibilit y24:4 responsible 22:14 responsive 20:11 rest19:18 19:19 result15:7 review9:5 42:7 ride 9:18 rightly5:11 ring39:6 Roman 12:25 rules 26:25 31:5

S safe 35:19 safely9:18 safety8:24 9:17 31:11 sanction 42:3 sat18:20 20:12 satisfied 19:17 saw5:18 schedule 15:10 35:18 39:8 39:9 scheduling 3:8 9:3 34:16 scope 3:24 15:5 15:6 second 16:5 section 14:6 14:8 14:13

security 18:17 seem 10:10 seems 25:9 36:11 seen 21:24 send40:1 sending 42:3 43:1 sense 4:12 9:2 10:17 15:17 17:18 sensitive 27:11 sentence 11:1 13:23 14:16 September 9:8 13:16 serve 27:18 27:20 setting43:2 settle 24:2 settlement 24:1 24:7 24:10 24:24 setup 18:19 shares 23:20 sharing24:8 sheet39:3 short31:19 42:17 silence 36:17 silently 13:17FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 60

similar 11:14 11:23 12:1 18:19 18:25 20:11 simple 31:1 simply10:5 13:18 34:16 single 8:14 24:3 24:4 sir 12:10 six4:16 8:23 9:6 9:18 small 8:14 Smith 3:18 39:14 somebody 40:12 someone 21:24 24:24 25:2 31:24 32:1 somewhat 10:10 sooner40:10 sorry 3:13 sought4:24 sound20:11 30:10 sounded

9:5 sounds 8:19 11:16 11:23 30:12 source 21:7 speaking34:7 special 34:6 38:7 specific 32:11 33:6 33:18 specifically 9:24 speed25:6 SR20 9:9 staff 17:12 stand18:21 19:23 21:19 22:2 Standards 5:25 start 4:2 19:3 23:12 32:8 32:18 32:19 35:17 starting13:1 14:13 36:3 starts 13:6 13:15 13:23 state 41:12 stated 7:1 8:4 8:13 28:3 statement 21:19 states 13:7 status 35:20 stipulations 37:14 streamlined 39:20 strongly 40:17 41:20 student3:20 style 19:22 submit27:1 40:24 suddenly 23:20 sufficient 41:16 suggest 16:2 29:16 32:13 36:9 summary31:18 31:19 34:11 34:16 37:20 38:2 38:3 38:11 38:13 summer30:11 support25:18 27:6 31:21 sure 6:8 10:6 11:7 11:13 11:21 17:7 35:21 38:14 40:12

T tab 39:7 table 39:4 tables 18:23 talk 3:24 4:7 10:3 15:14 16:24 18:5 20:22 25:6 39:12 39:25 40:7 talked 32:23 talks 25:25 technical 9:17 technically 4:17 7:14 8:11 Teleconferenc e 3:1 43:9 telephone 3:7 31:8 34:13 36:3 terms 23:1 28:17 29:7 test4:18 testify21:18 testimony 33:12 33:14 tests 4:19 thank 12:10 14:10 15:9 29:14 34:23 42:23 42:24 43:4 43:6 Thanks 43:7 themselves 7:19 theory 25:17 25:18 27:7 there'sFAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 61

5:18 5:23 17:17 23:17 38:14 42:4 they're 21:25 26:5 third19:17 thirty27:1 27:3 27:12 thus 22:23 timeline 26:12 26:16 27:2 today 3:6 3:11 15:16 30:23 31:3 36:19 42:25 tools 22:25 23:1 27:12 27:13 27:24 27:24 top 10:2 14:1 14:12 30:14 total 30:8 towards 30:1 trail 8:6 travel 28:25 37:8 37:9 trial 5:12 5:15 14:25 15:6 15:16 15:21 18:25 22:10 22:14 23:7 23:24 26:20 28:12 29:23 35:25 36:1 36:10 36:11 38:22 40:13 trier 21:4 trouble 17:14 true 41:15 41:16 try18:13 trying7:12 8:25 9:2 Tuesday37:6 turn 7:3 10:22 13:21 15:20 25:8 34:14 type 8:15 15:18 19:12 34:8 types 27:23 typically 18:21 21:5 26:25 38:15 39:11 40:3

U ultimately 18:18 underlying 5:12 5:16 understand 5:1 6:2 27:19 27:20 understandabl e 21:6 understanding 4:19 6:8 39:19 unless 20:21 unpleasant 25:3 upon 27:6 27:18 usually 19:7 20:20 27:3 27:11 34:10 34:10 utilize 11:15 28:23 33:12 42:6 utilized 31:20

V vacation 30:10 versa 23:19 vice 23:19 violation 5:21 7:15 8:24 9:17 violations 6:5 7:12 14:20

W wait36:2 wearing22:7 Wednesday 3:2 3:6 week 30:15 30:16 30:16 35:3 36:20 36:21 36:23 36:24 37:1 weeks 32:15 32:23 35:1 welcome 37:21 41:4 we'll 10:12 17:15 17:16 37:6 37:13 we're 3:4 10:2 14:11 31:3 we've 8:10 9:14 whatever 22:3 whenever 18:13 WHEREUPON 43:9 whether 7:19 8:21 35:23 whole 22:17 24:15 35:7 whom 24:24 whose 33:13 William

3:17 wish 43:4 witness 18:21 19:17 19:23 20:6 28:11 28:12 33:7 37:13FAA vs Endless Mtns Air Hearing May 28, 2014 VR # 1062-3 Page 62

witnesses 17:19 19:4 19:7 19:10 19:15 19:16 19:22 19:25 20:3 20:5 20:16 23:6 28:6 28:25 33:5 37:10 work 15:16 23:4 24:24 39:17 working 30:1 39:21 39:23 writing 26:6 27:10 31:4 written 7:21 21:9 21:11 23:2 26:10 26:23 32:12 37:14 wrong8:12 wrongly5:11

Y yay10:12 yep 12:17 29:13 yet4:10 York 16:17 16:18 you'll 15:8 yourself 13:17 14:16 40:16 42:17 you've 5:2 6:3 20:12 24:24

Z Zachary3:12