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 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

 + + + + + 

 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 COMBINED PUBLIC MEETING ON: 

TEST PROCEDURE NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING 

(NOPR) - GENERAL SERVICE FLUORESCENT LAMPS, 

GENERAL SERVICE INCANDESCENT LAMPS, AND 

 INCANDESCENT REFLECTOR LAMPS 

 + + + + + 

 TUESDAY 

 OCTOBER 4, 2011 

 + + + + + 

 The Meeting met in the Room 1E-245, 

1000 Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, 

D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Meeting 

Facilitator, presiding. 

PRESENT 

DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public 

 Solutions 

TINA KAARSBURG, PhD, Department of Energy 

SUSAN ANDERSON, Osram Sylvania 

TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice 

ALEX BOESENBERG, National Electrical 

 Manufacturers Association 

KEITH COOK, Philips Lighting 

KU'UIPO CURRY, ICF International (on behalf 

 of Energy Star) 

MAHIMA "MIMI" GUPTA, Navigant Consulting 

PEKKA HAKKARAINEN, Lutron Electronics Company 

AISHA HUSAIN, Navigant Consulting 

MAUREEN KIENLE, Navigant Consulting 

BETSY KOHL, Department of Energy, General 

 Counsel 

JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness 
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 Project 

MIKE MCGARAGHAN, Energy Solutions (on behalf 

 of California Investor Owned Utilities) 

STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute 

CHARLIE STEPHENS, Northwest Energy Efficiency 

 Alliance 
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 A G E N D A 

WELCOME; INTRODUCTIONS; OVERVIEW; 

AND OPENING STATEMENTS.......................4 

 Tina Kaarsberg, Ph.D., DOE 

 Doug Brookman, Public Solutions 

NOPR TEST PROCEDURE..........................15 

 Maureen Kienle, Navigant 

BREAK.........................................64 

INTERESTED PARTY STATEMENTS.................68 

 NEMA, EEI, other 

FRAMEWORK ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS 

OVERVIEW; SCOPE OF COVERAGE, MARKET AND 

TECHNOLOGY; SCREENING ANALYSIS..............88 

 Aisha Husain, Navigant 

LUNCH.......................................139 

ENGINEERING ANALYSIS; PRODUCT PRICE 

DETERMINATION; ENERGY USE.................140 

 Aisha Husain, Navigant 

LIFE-CYCLE COST AND PAYBACK PERIOD AND 

SHIPMENT ANALYSES; NATIONAL IMPACT 

ANALYSIS; NOPR ANALYSIS; NEXT STEPS......214 

QUESTIONS/DISCUSSIONS; CLOSING REMARKS...267 

 Tina Kaarsberg, Ph.D., DOE 
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (9:05 a.m.) 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good morning 

4 everyone and welcome. This is the combined 

5 meeting on Energy Conservation Standards and 

6 Test Procedures for fluorescent and 

 th

7 incandescent lamps. Today is October 4 , 2011 

8 here at the Department of Energy in the 

9 Forrestal Building. 

10 My name is Doug Brookman from Public Solutions 

11 in Baltimore. 

12 We're going to start of this 

13 morning with welcoming remarks from Tina 

14 Kaarsberg. 

15 MS. KAARSBERG: Okay. Am I supposed 

16 to use this? Well, Doug didn't use a 

17 microphone but I'll be different. 

18 Well, welcome everyone, and we 

19 appreciate the great turnout on what we 

20 understand was a difficult date, and we 

21 apologize and we'll never do it again. I 

22 mean, we'll try not to do it again. 
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1 (Laughter.) 

2 MS. KAARSBERG: We have here two --

3 I call it the general service thing; two 

4 general service things, lamp things in two 

5 different stages of development. And I 

6 understand from some preliminary conversations 

7 I've had that there's a lot of interest, 

8 especially in the framework standard. And I 

9 look forward to your comments, and look 

10 forward to working with you. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

12 It's our tradition to start with 

13 introductions. Please say your name and 

14 organizational affiliation. I'll start right 

15 over here. 

16 MR. BOESENBERG: I'm Alex 

17 Boesenberg. I'm the Regulatory Affairs 

18 Manager for the National Electrical 

19 Manufacturers Association. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And you can 

21 get in the habit of turning the mics on, 

22 please. Pekka. 
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1 DR. HAKKARAINEN: I'm Pekka 

2 Hakkarainen with Lutron Electronics, and 

3 currently chair the Lighting Systems Division 

4 at NEMA. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

6 MS. ANDERSON: I'm Susan Anderson 

7 with Osram Sylvania. 

8 MR. COOKE: Keith Cooke with Philips 

9 Lighting. 

10 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with Earth 

11 Justice. 

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

13 Edison Electric Institute. 

14 MS. CURRY: Ku'uipo Curry, ICF 

15 International in support of Energy Star. 

16 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, 

17 Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. 

18 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan 

19 from Energy Solutions here on behalf of the 

20 California Investor Owned Utilities, which 

21 include Pacific Gas & Electric, Southern 

22 California Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric 
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1 and SoCal Gas. 

2 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 

3 Standards Awareness Project. 

4 MS. GUPTA: Mimi Gupta, Navigant 

5 Consulting. 

6 MS. KIENLE: Maureen Kienle, 

7 Navigant Consulting. 

8 MS. HUSAIN: Aisha Husain, Navigant 

9 Consulting. 

10 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General 

11 Counsel. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Did we miss 

13 anybody? Brenda, hello. 

14 MS. EDWARDS: Brenda Edwards. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. I 

16 think all of you received a packet of 

17 information as you came into the room. I'm 

18 going to do a very brief general review. 

19 You can see, as Tina described, 

20 we're going to start off this morning with 

21 presentation materials on the Notice of 

22 Proposed Rulemaking Test Procedure. We'll 
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1 take a break midmorning around about 10:15 or 

2 so. Following that more information and 

3 opportunity for you to comment on the NOPR 

4 Test Procedure. 

5 Around about 11:00 or so we'll 

6 shift gears and move into the standards7 related material. There's an opportunity, as 

8 soon as I'm finished with this agenda review, 

9 for any brief summary remarks, opening remarks 

10 here at the outset, and then again at 11:00 as 

11 we move into the second phase of this meeting 

12 dealing with standards to make those opening 

13 remarks. 

14 Following that presentation on the 

15 framework for the Energy Conservation 

16 Standards, the Overview, Scope of Coverage, 

17 Market and Technology, Screening Analysis, 

18 we'll break for lunch around about 12:15 or 

19 so. We'll just see how that stacks up because 

20 the cafeteria gets pretty busy around there. 

21 Following lunch, Engineering 

22 Analysis, Product Price Determination, Energy 
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1 Use. We'll break mid-afternoon. We do 

2 anticipate that we're going to be here for the 

3 full day today. 

4 Following the mid-afternoon break, 

5 Life-Cycle Cost, Payback Period, and Shipment 

6 Analyses; National Impact Analysis, NOPR 

7 Analyses and Next Steps. There's yet another 

8 opportunity at the end of the day for any 

9 final comments, any additional issues that any 

10 individual wishes to raise, and we'll have a 

11 few closing remarks. So, somewhere between 

12 4:30 and 5:00 today we'll probably be 

13 finished. 

14 So, that's the plan for today. 

15 Questions and comments on the plan; the 

16 agenda, as written? 

17 I would ask for your consideration. 

18 Please speak one at a time. Please say your 

19 name each time you speak for the record. 

20 There will be a complete transcript of this 

21 meeting made available by the Department. I'm 

22 going to be queuing individuals by name as 
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1 best I can to speak. I also wish to encourage 

2 follow-on comments. That's frequently helpful 

3 for the Department to have that back and 

4 forth. 

5 Please keep the focus here. Turn 

6 your cell phones on silent mode and limit 

7 sidebar conversations. These mics when 

8 they're on actually work pretty well these 

9 days, so we can hear you. Please be concise, 

10 share the air time. 

11 I think those are the preliminary 

12 items, so shall we move directly to the 

13 opening statements, or do you have any 

14 preliminary slides? 

15 MS. KAARSBERG: No, I don't, but I 

16 did have a question on the webinar. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Turn your mic 

18 on. 

19 MS. KAARSBERG: On the webinar, do 

20 you anticipate that we're going to need to 

21 allocate some time for webinar input, how many 

22 people have signed up? 
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1 PARTICIPANT: We have 20 folks on 

2 the webinar right now. And if you want to 

3 make an announcement -- 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So, 

5 Emily -- if you couldn't hear that, Emily said 

6 there are 20 folks participating by webinar. 

7 I'm remiss in not welcoming you already. Glad 

8 to have you with us. 

9 If you have questions or comments, 

10 you can type them in on the screen as you 

11 watch the slides, and we'll try and 

12 incorporate them in the discussion as we go 

13 along. 

14 I'd also ask for those of you on 

15 the web, please if you're calling in on a 

16 telephone, please put your telephone on mute. 

17 Yesterday when we did this meeting there was 

18 feedback and echoing going on, and we'd like 

19 to eliminate that, if at all possible. Not on 

20 hold, because we'll get the hold signal, the 

21 beep, beep, beep, beep stuff. 

22 Okay. So, then let's start with 
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1 opening remarks. Did you have preliminary 

2 slides before we do the opening remarks? 

3 MS. KIENLE: We have some 

4 preliminary slides, but you already covered 

5 the basis of these. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So, 

7 let's start with opening remarks, brief 

8 summary comments surrounding issues that are 

9 important to you related to test procedures. 

10 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Pekka Hakkarainen 

11 with Lutron. Regarding the public comment 

12 period for the test procedures and the 

13 framework documents, from my perspective the -

14 - seems that we would like to have more time 

15 for the framework and test procedures seem 

16 easier. So, I would like to ask for an 

17 extension on the framework document. 

18 MS. KOHL: Okay. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl 

20 says okay. 

21 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. Your 

22 request is noted and we'll consider it. If an 
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1 extension is granted, it will be published in 

2 the Federal Register. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 Yes, Steve Rosenstock. 

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

6 EEI. Just a quick follow-on. I know that 

7 recently there have been requests for 

8 extensions in the past, and sometimes those 

9 requests were not published in the Federal 

10 Register until like the day after the first 

11 comment period. So, I mean, sometimes there 

12 can be a timing issue with some of this. 

13 As a stakeholder we want to follow 

14 the procedures and everything, but sometimes 

15 there can be a delay in some of these notices 

16 such that the comments are due say October 

 st

17 31 , and the notice that it was extended 

18 doesn't appear in the Federal Register until 

 th

19 October 30 . Well, by then it's kind of too 

20 late for stakeholders. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Betsy. 

22 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. You 
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1 can always revise and submit additional 

2 comments, if the comment period is extended. 

3 We do our best. There are sometimes 

4 publication delays, but we'll try. 

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: If the 

7 comment period were extended, Tina, would you 

8 send out a note or something like that? 

9 MS. KOHL: It's published in the 

10 Federal Register. Betsy Kohl. If the comment 

11 period is extended it's published in the 

12 Federal Register. 

13 MS. KAARSBERG: But just so you 

14 know, I also have a mailing list that exceeds 

15 500 people. And don't ask me how I know, that 

16 I send out. Once the notice is published, I 

17 just send out the link to it as an added 

18 thing. I know a lot of you folks track the 

19 Federal Register, but we do that. The date is 

20 always actually set by the -- the date is 

21 related to the Federal Register publication 

22 date, so that's not something where, as we do 
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1 with some other things, we can put it on the 

2 web and give you some kind of advance notice 

3 once it's issued. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Any 

5 additional opening statements related to the 

6 test procedure? 

7 (No response.) 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No 

9 additional. Okay. So, then let's proceed with 

10 the presentation materials. Maureen of 

11 Navigant. And I believe all of you have this 

12 material. 

13 MS. KIENLE: Okay. My name is 

14 Maureen Kienle, and I'm with Navigant 

15 Consulting. And I'm going to start off by 

16 reviewing the purpose of today's public 

17 meeting. 

18 The purpose of today's public 

19 meeting is to present DOE's proposed test 

20 procedure for general service fluorescent 

21 lamps, general service incandescent lamps, and 

22 incandescent reflector lamps. And, also, to 
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1 present DOE's proposed framework for GSFL and 

2 IRL Energy Conservation Standards. Also, to 

3 invite comment on the Test Procedure Notice of 

4 Proposed Rulemaking, and the Energy 

5 Conservation Standards Framework document, to 

6 discuss the next steps in these rulemakings, 

7 and finally to invite participants to provide 

8 summary comments or statements, and raise any 

9 additional issues for discussion. 

10 DOE welcomes comments, data, and 

11 information concerning the Notice of Proposed 

12 Rulemaking and the framework document. 

13 Throughout the presentation we highlight 

14 specific issues that we ask for comment on in 

15 the Test Procedure NOPR and framework 

16 document. 

17 The issues are numbered in 

18 accordance with these documents, and the links 

19 to the NOPR and framework are provided on this 

20 slide. 

21 Please note the Test Procedure NOPR 

 th

22 which was published on September 14 , 2011 has 
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1 a comment period of 75 days, which ends 

 th

2 November 28 , 2011. The framework document 

 th

3 which was also published September 14 , 2011 

4 has a comment period of 45 days, and ends 

 st

5 October 31 , 2011. 

6 MS. KOHL: Could I ask one question 

7 here? 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Betsy. 

9 MS. KOHL: John, if you have a 

10 requested length of the extension that would 

11 be good to know, as well. You can think about 

12 it but just let us know. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

14 MS. KIENLE: As mentioned in the 

15 agenda, we will start out with the Test 

16 Procedure NOPR for general service fluorescent 

17 lamps, general service incandescent lamps, and 

18 incandescent reflector lamps. 

19 We will first provide an overview, 

20 then go into the specific industry standards 

21 that we're proposing to update. And, finally, 

22 discuss the new test procedure on general 
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1 service incandescent lamp lifetime that we're 

2 proposing to establish. 

3 On this slide, we review the 

4 regulatory history of the test procedure and 

5 standard. The Energy Policy and Conservation 

6 Act of 1975 established the Energy 

7 Conservation Program for consumer products 

8 other than automobiles, which included general 

9 service fluorescent lamps, general service 

10 incandescent lamps, and incandescent reflector 

11 lamps. This Act also set forth the method for 

12 developing the test procedure for these 

13 covered products. 

14 Then, in the 1994 interim rule and 

15 subsequent 1997 final rule DOE established 

16 test procedures for the general service 

17 fluorescent lamps, general service 

18 incandescent lamps, and incandescent reflector 

19 lamps. The test procedures incorporated by 

20 reference several ANSI and IESNA industry 

21 standards. 

22 The Energy Independence and 
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1 Security Act of 2007 required DOE to review 

2 and revise its test procedures at least once 

3 every seven years. It also established lamp 

4 lifetime requirements for GSILs. 

5 So, then in 2009 DOE reviewed and 

6 revised test procedures for GSFLs, GSILs, and 

7 IRLs. Also, in 2009 DOE adopted standards for 

8 additional types of GSFLs and revised the test 

9 procedures in order to be applicable to these 

10 additional types of lamps, as well. 

11 Finally, this current rulemaking is 

12 another review and revision of the GSFL, GSIL, 

13 and IRL test procedure per the seven-year 

14 revision rule. This rulemaking will also 

15 establish a test procedure for measuring 

16 lifetime of GSILs. 

17 So, on this slide we just wanted to 

18 review the stages of the rulemaking and also 

19 review some key dates. As we know, the NOPR 

 th

20 was published on September 14 , 2011. We plan 

21 to publish the final rule in January 2012 so 

22 that it's in line with the EISA 2007 
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1 requirements. And then the projected 

2 compliance date is June 2012. 

3 So, as I mentioned, per EPCA DOE is 

4 required to review and amend accordingly test 

5 procedures at least once every seven years. 

6 This process requires DOE to amend the test 

7 procedure to improve measurement 

8 representativeness or accuracy, or reduce 

9 burden, or to determine that such amendments 

10 are unnecessary. 

11 For the NOPR, DOE examines industry 

12 best practices and technical developments. In 

13 doing so, this NOPR proposes amendments to 

14 DOE's test procedures for GSFLs and GSILs. 

15 Specifically, it is proposing to update 

16 references to industry standards, and also to 

17 establish a test procedure for measuring lamp 

18 lifetime of GSILs. 

19 At this time, DOE requests comment 

20 on all aspects of DOE's test procedures, 

21 including those that were not specifically 

22 called out in the Test Procedure NOPR. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments on 

2 the Test Procedure? No comments? Mike. 

3 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan, 

4 California Utilities. I just wanted to ask a 

5 question about something that appears in the 

6 framework document that seems like it would be 

7 really important to address in the test 

8 procedure document, as well. 

9 In the framework document, DOE 

10 talks about a new potential metric it's 

11 considering for IRLs, and I don't think you're 

12 addressing what that test procedure would look 

13 like in this NOPR for test procedures. 

14 Does DOE have a plan, if they do 

15 adopt that metric, to issue a supplemental 

16 NOPR or some other strategy for hashing out 

17 how that test procedure will look? 

18 MS. KIENLE: Yes. I think if DOE 

19 does end up adopting a new efficacy metric 

20 then we would plan to put out a subsequent 

21 document to support that test procedure, as 

22 well. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 

2 comments? Tina. 

3 MS. KAARSBERG: We are -- 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Say your 

5 name. 

6 MS. KAARSBERG: Tina Kaarsberg. We 

7 are looking at issues related to lamp 

8 directionality, not looking at but we are 

9 accepting comments or were accepting comments 

10 in our RFI on lighting systems. So, there's 

11 also that aspect of it rather than the 

12 directionality, if that makes any sense. But 

13 if such a NOPR were considered for IRL, it 

14 would also be considered more broadly, it's 

15 likely. 

16 MS. CURRY: I have a -- so, for this 

17 test procedure what exactly are you trying to 

18 measure? It is just efficacy, are you trying 

19 to measure directionality, are you trying to 

20 define sort of beam quality? What exactly is 

21 this test procedure going to be, and will it 

22 be based on sort of industry standard or IES 
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1 acceptable test procedures? 

2 MS. KAARSBERG: In the lighting 

3 systems RFI we talked about some of the 

4 lighting system standards that are out there 

5 for NEMA. I think LM-6 or something. 

6 MR. STEPHENS: LE6. 

7 MS. KAARSBERG: Or LE, one of these 

8 letters. But we have not made a proposal. We 

9 are just in the very early preliminary stages. 

10 It's not even really a proper rulemaking. 

11 It's just a request for information. But I 

12 just wanted to mention that this 

13 directionality was also related to the 

14 lighting systems. 

15 MS. ANDERSON: NEMA will also have -

16 - 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan. 

18 MS. ANDERSON: Susan Anderson. NEMA 

19 will also have some comments about suggested 

20 values that should be looked at for reflective 

21 lamps in our framework documents. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So, 
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1 some of this will be addressed there. 

2 Other comments on these --

3 responsive to this issue box, because we're 

4 about to move on. 

5 (No response.) 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

7 MS. KIENLE: Okay. We will now go 

8 into more detail on the proposed updates to 

9 industry standards. 

10 The chart on this slide outlines 

11 the industry standards that the NOPR proposes 

12 to update. For GSFLs this includes updating 

13 current references to ANSI C78.81-2005 and 

14 2003 to the latest 2010 version. ANSI C78.81 

15 provides dimensional and electrical 

16 characteristics of general service fluorescent 

17 lamps. 

18 DOE is also proposing to update LM19 9 and LM-45 to their latest 2009 versions. 

20 LM-9 is the main industry standard referenced 

21 in DOE's test procedures for GSFLs. And LM-45 

22 is the main industry standard referenced for 
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1 GSILs. They provide basic test procedures and 

2 methodology for taking electrical and 

3 photometric measurements. These references can 

4 be found in 10 CFR Part 430, Subpart B, 

5 Appendix R. 

6 DOE determined the updated 

7 standards offered more precise measurements 

8 and provided further clarification to the DOE 

9 test procedures. I'm now going to talk in 

10 more detail about each of these proposed 

11 updates. 

12 DOE is proposing to update 

13 references to ANSI C78.81-2005 and 2003 to the 

14 latest 2010 version. As I mentioned, ANSI 

15 C78.81 provides dimensional and electrical 

16 characteristics for fluorescent lamps. 

17 The major change in the latest 

18 version is that it adds high frequency and low 

19 frequency lamp specifications for 25 watt, 28 

20 watt, and 30 watt reduced wattage four-foot T8 

21 medium bi-pin lamps. 

22 The low frequency ballast 
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1 specifications in ANSI C78.81-2010 for reduced 

2 wattage lamps are identical to the 

3 specifications that DOE currently directs 

4 manufacturers to use, and are found in Section 

5 4.1.2.1 of Appendix R. 

6 Therefore, DOE does not expect updating to the 

7 latest version will have an impact on measured 

8 efficacy or increase testing burden. 

9 Just a note, DOE will also continue 

10 to require GSFL testing with low frequency 

11 reference ballasts unless only high frequency 

12 specifications are available in order to 

13 maintain consistency and comparability. This 

14 is because the industry standards still do not 

15 provide the necessary high frequency ballast 

16 specifications for all covered lamp types. 

17 DOE is also proposing to update LM18 9 to its latest 2009 version. The 2009 version 

19 has four key updates. First, it provides more 

20 information on conducting tests under high 

21 frequency conditions by specifying the root 

22 mean square voltage regulation thresholds, 
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1 instrument frequency response, reference 

2 ballast impedance and circuit setup. Second, 

3 it modifies the lamp stabilization method to 

4 require more consecutive measurements to be 

5 taken until the stability criterion is met. 

6 Next, it specifies temperature and orientation 

7 for the stabilization of T5 lamps. And, 

8 finally, the updated version adds impedance 

9 thresholds for voltage and current inputs to 

10 the multimeter and power source. 

11 DOE has tentatively concluded that 

12 these changes would generally result in more 

13 precise measurements, provide further 

14 clarification, and align DOE's requirements 

15 with current industry standards. Therefore, 

16 DOE has tentatively concluded that these 

17 changes will not have a significant impact on 

18 measured efficacy or increase testing burden. 

19 The main updates to the latest 

20 version of LM-45 are shown on this slide. 

21 First, the updated version of LM-45 modifies 

22 the lamp stabilization method to require 
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1 stabilization measurements to continue until 

2 the stability criterion is met. Second, it 

3 modifies certain tolerances, including the 

4 voltage and current regulation tolerances for 

5 an AC power source. Third, it modifies the 

6 instrument tolerances for AC voltage, current, 

7 and wattage. The updated version also has 

8 impedance thresholds for voltage and current 

9 inputs to the multimeter. Finally, it adds a 

10 requirement for the degree of spectral match 

11 of the photo detector measurements to the V 

12 lamba function, which quantifies the response 

13 of the human eye to light. 

14 DOE has tentatively concluded that 

15 these changes would generally result in more 

16 precise measurements, provide further 

17 clarification, and align DOE's requirements 

18 with current industry standards. Therefore, 

19 DOE has tentatively concluded that these 

20 changes will not have a significant impact on 

21 measured efficacy or increase testing burden. 

22 DOE requests comments on its 
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1 proposed incorporation of the 2009 versions of 

2 LM-9 and LM-45. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie 

4 Stephens. 

5 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. I 

6 have a question -- a couple of questions, 

7 actually. Back on Slide 16, the additional 

8 guidance for the high frequency testing, does 

9 that specifically apply only to the four lamp 

10 types that are -- that today have to be tested 

11 at high frequencies because of the lack of a 

12 low frequency ballast? 

13 MS. KIENLE: No, it's not just the 

14 reduced wattage lamps. 

15 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So, in theory 

16 that could be applied to other lamp lengths 

17 and wattages. 

18 MS. KIENLE: That's correct. 

19 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. My second 

20 question has to do with the V lamba and 

21 spectral match at the end. The explanation of 

22 that in the material was not very clear to me. 
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1 I couldn't after reading that draw any 

2 conclusion, so I'm a little -- is there 

3 somebody who could explain that a little more 

4 clearly so that DOE's conclusion that it 

5 doesn't have an impact, so I could kind of 

6 come to that same conclusion myself? No one 

7 intimately familiar with LM-45? 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan, do you 

9 want to -- 

10 MS. ANDERSON: Well, our testing 

11 experts are not here today, so they will be in 

12 our written comments. 

13 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. I guess I'd ask 

14 DOE if they wouldn't mind to make a little bit 

15 of an attempt to re-explain that in a way that 

16 makes sense to somebody who's trying to 

17 understand whether it actually makes a 

18 difference or not. 

19 MS. KIENLE: Okay. 

20 MR. STEPHENS: I have no reason to 

21 believe one way or the other, but I'd kind of 

22 like to understand it a little better. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

2 MS. KIENLE: Okay, thank you. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, you can 

4 see the request for comment on these two. 

5 Additional questions or comments? 

6 (No response.) 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I see no 

8 additional comments. Okay, so we'll just 

9 press on. 

10 MS. KIENLE: Okay, we'll continue 

11 then. 

12 The existing IRL test procedure 

13 incorporates by reference IESNA LM-20-1994 for 

14 measuring efficacy of IRLs. This test 

15 procedure is referenced in 10 CFR Part 430, 

16 Subpart B, Appendix R. 

17 At the time of publication of this 

18 NOPR, a revised edition of this standard has 

19 not yet been published. DOE is also not aware 

20 of any best practices or technical 

21 developments that necessitate further 

22 modifications. Therefore, no amendments to 
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1 the IRL test procedure are proposed in this 

2 NOPR. 

3 DOE requests comment on whether any 

4 amendments to the IRL test procedure are 

5 necessary. 

6 MS. KIENLE: Susan? 

7 MS. ANDERSON: Susan Anderson. I 

8 mean, if we are going to look at a new metric 

9 for IRL, then we are going to need to look at 

10 something other than lumens per watt and 

11 review the entire test procedure. I mean, the 

12 characteristics that you normally look at when 

13 you're looking at directional light sources 

14 are center beam candlepower, beam angle, which 

15 is 50 percent of center beam candlepower, and 

16 field angle which is 10 percent of center beam 

17 candlepower. And then there's another term 

18 generally used called beam spread that does 

19 not have a definition, where the others are 

20 defined by the IES. So, if we're going to 

21 talk about beam spread, then we will need to 

22 come up with a definition for beam spread. 
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1 And that's actually already a topic with ANSI 

2 and the IEC. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: They're 

4 working on it now? They are. Mimi Gupta. 

5 MS. GUPTA: Yes, Mimi Gupta. Yes, 

6 if DOE decides to adopt a new metric in the 

7 standards rulemaking, it will likely start a 

8 whole new rulemaking to establish a test 

9 procedure for that metric. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Mike? 

11 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan. I 

12 would just point out that in the recent 

13 ballast rulemaking, I believe DOE published 

14 the new test procedure right around the same 

15 time as the NOPR. And there wasn't enough 

16 time, or enough data with that -- testing data 

17 with that new test procedure to get to a final 

18 rule in that short window. So, obviously, the 

19 more time that everyone has to see the test 

20 procedure before getting to later stages of 

21 the standards rulemaking the better. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 
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1 Additional comments here? Susan. 

2 MS. ANDERSON: One thing that we've 

3 noted during our NEMA discussions is that many 

4 labs are not yet accredited to the 2009 

5 version of LM-9, and that we aren't sure that 

6 accreditation is actually available through 

7 NVLAP as yet. So, that's something that needs 

8 to be pursued. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mimi. 

10 MS. GUPTA: What do you mean the 

11 lamps are not accredited? 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Labs. 

13 MS. GUPTA: Oh, the labs. Oh, okay. 

14 MS. ANDERSON: Labs. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. How 

16 does that -- so, is that -- 

17 MS. ANDERSON: NVLAP would need to 

18 update their accreditation. 

19 MR. COOKE: First. And then they'd 

20 go through and improve the individual 

21 laboratories to that specific version of the 

22 test procedure. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I see. 

2 MR. COOKE: So, if you expect this 

3 to become effective by June of 2012, there may 

4 not be any labs capable of running the test. 

5 That's the concern. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. I didn't 

7 get your name before. 

8 MS. CURRY: Oh, Ku'uipo Curry. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

10 MS. CURRY: With regards to LM-9 and 

11 NVLAP there's a lot of accreditation bodies 

12 that Energy Star -- that are accrediting 

13 laboratories to LM-9, and you can definitely 

14 find a list of those laboratories on 

15 EnergyStar.gov/lighting labs. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

17 MS. CURRY: And, basically, go and 

18 look at the laboratories that are recognized 

19 for fluorescent testing. 

20 MS. ANDERSON: Our concern is that 

21 they are accredited to the 2009 version. 

22 MS. CURRY: It's very possible they 
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1 are, so if that's something that you wanted to 

2 check out, you could definitely check that 

3 website. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

5 Thanks, Susan and Ku'uipo. Steve? 

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

7 EEI. Just kind of follow-up on the timing 

8 here. It says according to the schedule that 

9 DOE wants to publish a final rule by January 

10 for all the covered products, and it seems 

11 like for the IRLs, if there is a new metric 

12 decided upon or agreed upon, they might -- I 

13 don't know if DOE has -- is it going to be 

14 able to open up that final rule for 

15 supplemental final rule if there's a new 

16 metric which would require a new test 

17 procedure all the lamps that -- well, I guess 

18 maybe not for July 2012, but for the future 

19 ones. So, again, there might be a timing 

20 issue here. 

21 MS. KAARSBERG: This is Tina. 

22 That's a very good concern, and so it's much -
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1 - the much more likely scenario is that if we 

2 come up with a new metric as part of the 

3 framework, the standard that we're just 

4 starting has a new metric it then starts a new 

5 test procedure proceedings. So, that would 

6 start at the same time if that were the case. 

7 And that's just a more likely scenario. I 

8 wouldn't rule anything out at this point in my 

9 life, but your concern is duly noted. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Final 

11 comments on this section? Tim Ballo. 

12 MR. BALLO: I have one follow-up to 

13 Charlie's question on the value for the photo 

14 detector spectral responsivity. I, obviously, 

15 don't know what that means, but I note in the 

16 Federal Register Notice that commercial grade 

17 units have a tolerance of about 5 percent, and 

18 then what's considered the laboratory research 

19 quality units have a 3 percent tolerance. Why 

20 are the 3 percent tolerance units not suitable 

21 for use for testing? 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mimi Gupta. 
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1 MS. GUPTA: I would have to defer to 

2 the testing experts for some more 

3 clarification on that, and DOE can definitely 

4 look into that issue a little bit more as 

5 Charlie asked for. But I think our 

6 preliminary determination was that increase in 

7 the tolerance would not significantly affect 

8 the efficacy, the measured efficacy. And 

9 that's why we felt the benefits of aligning 

10 better with the industry standard were 

11 worthwhile to adopt this provision. 

12 MS. CURRY: Ku'uipo Curry. Just to 

13 give you some sense, NVLAP Laboratories have 

14 to be within 2 percent tolerance of each 

15 other, so it's not 3 percent and 5 percent, 

16 it's outside what would be acceptable for 

17 NVLAP Laboratories to remain accredited. 

18 MR. BALLO: Well, that suggests that 

19 you'd want to use the 2 percent value in the 

20 regs then. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, 

22 Tim. Any comment on that? Pekka? 
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1 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Nothing specific. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So, 

3 then moving on. 

4 MS. KIENLE: Okay. Now, I will go 

5 over the new proposed test procedure for GSIL 

6 lifetime testing. EISA 2007 amended EPCA by 

7 prescribing GSIL minimum rated lifetime 

8 requirements which are to be phased in between 

9 January 2012 and January 2014. 

10 DOE's proposal for the GSIL 

11 lifetime test procedure contains a proposed 

12 industry standard, definition, and sample 

13 size. 

14 The industry standard that DOE is 

15 proposing to reference is IESNA LM-49-2001, 

16 the IESNA Approved Method for Life Testing of 

17 Incandescent Filament Lamps. We found this to 

18 be widely used in industry. The standard’s 

19 procedure also generally coincides with the 

20 rated voltage testing guidelines provided in 

21 the IESNA lighting handbook. Additionally, the 

22 standard is referenced by the Federal Trade 
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1 Commission in its regulations for product 

2 labeling. 

3 DOE is proposing that the rated 

4 lifetime for general service incandescent 

5 lamps be defined as the length of operating 

6 time between first use and failure of 50 

7 percent of the prescribed sample size. This 

8 definition is based on EPCA's definition of 

9 the rated lifetime with the exception that DOE 

10 is proposing a prescribed sample size. It's 

11 also similar to the rated lifetime definition 

12 found in LM-49. 

13 Finally, DOE is proposing to 

14 specify a sample size of 20 lamps, which I'll 

15 go into further detail on later. 

16 On this slide we're presenting a 

17 brief summary of IESNA LM-49 regarding the 

18 test setup, conditions, and methodology. This 

19 proposed standard prescribes lifetime testing 

20 to be conducted at the rated voltage of the 

21 lamp. It requires the lamp to be checked for 

22 failure at regular intervals and cooled on a 
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1 daily basis. Provides instrument 

2 specifications for voltage, current, and 

3 frequency; specifies test conditions for 

4 vibration, temperature and air flow; and, 

5 finally, addresses orientation, spacing, 

6 handling, marking of lamps, and lamp holder 

7 specifications. 

8 DOE is also proposing to disallow 

9 the use of accelerated lifetime testing. 

10 Accelerated lifetime testing involves 

11 operating lamps at overvoltage which increases 

12 operating temperature and shortens lamp 

13 lifetime. It also involves using empirically 

14 derived scaling factors to determine the full 

15 lifetime of lamps. 

16 LM49 allows accelerated lifetime 

17 testing but only for non-halogen GSILs. 

18 However, very few non-halogen GSILs will meet 

19 the 2012 Energy Conservation standards. 

20 Accurate accelerated lifetime testing can also 

21 be difficult to conduct for halogen lamps due 

22 to the tungsten halogen regenerative cycle. 
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1 This cycle redeposits evaporated tungsten back 

2 onto the filament and is designed around 

3 certain operating temperatures. Any deviations 

4 from the rated voltage would change the 

5 operating temperature and can potentially 

6 alter or introduce new modes of lamp failure. 

7 Additionally, another reason DOE is 

8 disallowing the use of accelerated lifetime 

9 testing is that accurate scaling factors 

10 require numerous comparison tests, and need to 

11 be developed for each lamp design. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve 

13 Rosenstock. 

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

15 EEI. I understand this, but I'm kind of 

16 curious. Some of the halogen lamps I've seen 

17 out there are rated at 4,000 and 6,000 hours, 

18 so you can't use accelerated lifetime testing 

19 in the traditional test procedure with three 

20 hours on, three hours off. It could take quite 

21 a while to -- you could take a year, or over a 

22 year to do the non-accelerated lifetime 
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1 testing, and I'm just kind of curious --

2 again, I'm sure the manufacturers have more 

3 information. 

4 Couldn't that also be a timing 

5 issue if certain lifetime standards are set 

6 between January '12 and 2014? 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Tina. 

8 MS. KAARSBERG: I guess I would say 

9 that's a really good concern, and it's noted. 

10 I guess in my response, my understanding is 

11 the standard is only 1,000 hours. I mean, this 

12 is not for them to rate -- right, 1,000 hours 

13 for incandescents in EISA? 

14 MS. KIENLE: Right. 

15 MS. KAARSBERG: Right. So, even --

16 so, with this test procedure -- I thought the 

17 purpose of the test procedure was just to 

18 prove that they're meeting the 1,000 hour 

19 standards. But if it's, in fact, also being 

20 used to verify their -- what is that term you 

21 guys use, the representations about being --

22 having a lifetime of 4,000, which is the 
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1 case, Charlie is nodding at me, then I guess 

2 that's a good thing for us to examine. 

3 We had been thinking about -- at 

4 least I had been thinking about only in terms 

5 of the 1,000 hour requirement. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan, Keith. 

7 MR. COOKE: Yes, the other thing 

8 we'd like to recommend from a NEMA perspective 

9 is that we actually allow the product approval 

10 at 40 percent of the lifetime testing to allow 

11 commercialization, but then the testing 

12 continues until it's completed, so it would 

13 allow you to go ahead and go to market sooner 

14 than a complete test. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Is that in 

16 the IES specification, or -- 

17 MR. COOKE: No, this would be a 

18 change to that. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

20 MR. COOKE: But it does address 

21 Steve's concern. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 
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1 MR. BOESENBERG: And this is Alex 

2 Boesenberg of NEMA. I think Ku'uipo can 

3 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Energy 

4 Star has some provisions in some of the specs 

5 where, again, like Keith said, at 40 percent 

6 of testing we can commercialize. You are 

7 required to finish the testing and finish 

8 reporting. If you fail, of course, you have to 

9 pull the product, but otherwise it allows 

10 folks to get things on the shelves faster. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Now, 

12 I'm getting it. Ku'uipo. 

13 MS. CURRY: That's generally for 

14 CFLs, but yes, I mean, that's basically the 

15 approach that's taken. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: For Energy 

17 Star. 

18 MS. CURRY: That's right. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Mike, 

20 do you have a comment, question? 

21 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan. I 

22 just wanted to make sure I was clear on that. 
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1 Is that allowance perpetual, or is that in 

2 this case you're proposing that we would use 

3 it just to meet the time line of this 2012 

4 standard? 

5 MR. COOKE: It would be perpetual. 

6 It would be ongoing. 

7 MS. GUPTA: This is Mimi Gupta from 

8 Navigant. I mean, I'd just like to note that 

9 right now there is an option for manufacturers 

10 before the full year of testing and sampling 

11 is complete to submit an initial certification 

12 report to DOE based on preliminary test 

13 results, and that way they can go to market 

14 with their product before a full year of 

15 sampling and testing is complete. 

16 MR. COOKE: And we agree, that was 

17 never mentioned, though, in this document. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks. 

19 Steve. 

20 MS. GUPTA: I think it was. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Pekka. 

22 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Pekka Hakkarainen, 
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1 Lutron. I'll preface my comment by saying 

2 that I'm not a lamp designer, but I'm 

3 surprised about the comment about the halogen 

4 regenerative cycle here. It has been my 

5 understanding that it comes into play at 

6 significantly lower voltages than the rated 

7 voltage. And if you're operating at higher 

8 voltages, that that's not a concern. So, I 

9 would suggest that you examine that issue 

10 relative to the statement about accelerated 

11 life testing for halogen lamps. 

12 MS. GUPTA: Okay. We'll look into 

13 that, as well. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Susan. 

15 MS. ANDERSON: The halogen cycle 

16 does drop out when the temperature gets too 

17 low, so it is critical at lower temperatures, 

18 not higher temperatures. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

20 Other comments on this series of issues? 

21 MS. CURRY: Ku'uipo Curry. There's a 

22 -- I have a comment about using IESNA on 49-
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1 2001. Do you want me to save that? 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can you speak 

3 a little louder? 

4 MS. CURRY: I have a comment about 

5 using the IES-49-2001. Do you want me to talk 

6 about that now, or later? 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please. 

8 MS. CURRY: Basically, IESNA 

9 documents or IES LMs, basically are withdrawn 

10 after 10 years, so LM49-2001 is going to be 

11 withdrawn at the end of this year, which is 

12 problematic if you need to accredit 

13 laboratories to that test procedure. If they 

14 don't already own that test procedure and have 

15 that in their laboratories, they cannot be 

16 accredited to that test procedure. So, 

17 assuming that you're using NVLAP Laboratories 

18 that need to be accredited to LM-49-2001, if 

19 they aren't already accredited to that test 

20 procedure, they won't be able to be accredited 

21 to that test procedure in the future. 

22 I'm not sure if LM-49 is being --
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1 is slated to be renewed, if they're working 

2 on a revision to it, but it could be helpful 

3 to get in touch with the head of the IES TPC 

4 and ask them whether this is the appropriate 

5 standard. 

6 Worst case scenario, you would 

7 require this and then it would essentially be 

8 a withdrawn test procedure. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. We have 

10 a comment from someone who is joining us via 

11 the webinar, and the comment reads, "NVLAP 

12 accredits for all versions of LMs in 

13 discussion from 1993 forward. IES LM," I 

14 think that's 45, "is not descriptive in the 

15 regards to lamp stabilization. The stated 

16 method is recommended but other acceptance 

17 criterion and measurement intervals are 

18 recognized. Does DOE intend to accept the LM19 45 guidance as provided as recommendation and 

20 not a requirement?" And maybe we could -- 

21 MS. GUPTA: You might have to repeat 

22 that question. Sorry. 
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1 MS. CURRY: It started out with -- 

2 MS. GUPTA: So, they're talking 

3 about the -- it sounds like they're talking 

4 about some of the other industry test 

5 procedures that we're updating. This is not 

6 the lifetime -- 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes? 

8 MS. GUPTA: Okay. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, Mimi, 

10 what's your conclusion? 

11 MS. GUPTA: So, my colleague is 

12 saying that yes, we are looking at it as a 

13 recommendation. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Who 

15 wrote this in? 

16 PARTICIPANT: Ronald. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, Ronald. 

18 Okay. 

19 MS. ANDERSON: It might be Dr. Ron 

20 Baback. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Keith. 

22 MR. COOKE: Keith Cooke, Philips. 
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1 Another concern that we'd like to express is 

2 that we believe that this testing should only 

3 be required once for the product unless the 

4 product goes through any major changes, as 

5 opposed to on an annual basis. That would be 

6 a significant burden. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

8 you. Other comments on this series of issues? 

9 (No response.) 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

11 MS. KIENLE: Okay. As mentioned 

12 previously, DOE is proposing a sample size of 

13 20 lamps for GSIL lifetime testing. DOE is 

14 proposing to require a minimum of two lamps 

15 per month for seven months of production out 

16 of a 12-month period. 

17 DOE chose to propose a sample size 

18 of 20 because DOE believes that 20 is a 

19 statistically large group of lamps. This 

20 number is also consistent with the 21 lamps 

21 required for lamp efficacy measurements. 

22 Additionally, we're proposing an even number 
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1 rather than 21 because rated lifetime is 

2 dependent on the operating time of 50 percent 

3 of the sample size. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keith? 

5 MR. COOKE: Okay. Bear me with, I'm 

6 not a statistician, but one of our 

7 statisticians did want to make a comment on 

8 this. 

9 We agree with the proposal, but we 

10 have to give due consideration to the 

11 implications of doing it. We supported the 

12 minimum size of 20, but we also strongly 

13 opposed the notion that the tenth lamp to fail 

14 represents an unbiased estimate of the median 

15 life. Only in the case of an odd number of 

16 test samples does the middle or median rank 

17 lamp fully represent an unbiased estimate of 

18 the medium lamp life. 

19 Further, the failure rate as 

20 measured on how many lamps are failing per 

21 unit time at a given moment or during an 

22 interval, the 50 percent failure rate is not 
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1 the definition of median lamp life. For more 

2 information, consult Basic Statistical 

3 Reliability books on the topic, blah, blah, 

4 blah. 

5 We prefer the use of distributional 

6 analysis for determination of median lamp 

7 life. If you decide to facilitate the 

8 calculation of the 50 percent failure rate, 

9 you should use the middle lamp of an odd 

10 number of samples. Is the way the -- 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, let me 

12 just clarify. So, then does that mean you're 

13 not supportive of 20, and you'd rather have it 

14 21? I didn't get that. 

15 MR. COOKE: We're saying you could 

16 go either way. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

18 MR. COOKE: But what we're saying 

19 is, is you have to very careful on how you 

20 define the median. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex? 

22 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 
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1 NEMA. So, logically, you still have to test 

 th

2 for that 11 lamp failure, whether it's 20 or 

3 21. Statistically speaking you have to see --

4 you have to go past the middle. 

5 MR. COOKE: Right. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

7 MR. BOESENBERG: And since I have 

8 the floor, I have noted conversationally, and 

9 we will supply additional written comments 

10 regarding what I'll call some consistent 

11 concerns with statistical analysis for this 

12 and some of the other rulemakings. 

13 First comes to mind is the 

14 fluorescent ballast test rulemaking that we 

15 commented on the statistic -- some of the 

16 statistical assumptions or conclusions from 

17 the Department. 

18 It's sort of clear to me that your 

19 statisticians and our statisticians don't 

20 agree. And we have -- we're not sure yet how 

21 we want to address that, but we know that we 

22 do want to address it. We have contacted an 
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1 outside entity, a professional statistician, a 

2 professor of statistics back when we were 

3 commenting on the fluorescent ballast NOPR, 

4 and he -- based on what little we sent him, he 

5 bore out our argument. So, naturally, we wish 

6 to proceed with that, and hopefully provide 

7 him more data so that he can reach an 

8 independent conclusion. 

9 So, to cut it short, we have some 

10 concerns about how each side are performing 

11 their statistical analysis, and we would like 

12 to work with you specifically on that as a 

13 general topic versus continually hammering 

14 away at one little minor point in these 

15 different NOPRs. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

17 you. Charlie Stephens. 

18 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. As 

19 long as we're going to get the statisticians 

20 to work, I wouldn't mind having them look at 

21 the interaction between the test procedure 

22 statistician work and the reporting number. 
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1 I'm strongly suspicious that when we go into 

2 the market I'm not going to see a lamp 

3 lifetime on my package that says 1,027 hours, 

4 or 1,042 hours, or whatever. So, I think --

5 I'd like to know what the tolerance is for 

6 reporting a number, and how it statistically 

7 bears to the tested hours, and whether or not 

8 I should even be concerned if there's an issue 

9 there about reporting and testing. 

10 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

11 NEMA. That's a very valid question. 

12 Incidentally, that's the Federal Trade 

13 Commission. It's a different body, and I can 

14 provide you some information on that. 

15 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. I'd like to 

16 know about the statistics behind that, and 

17 what statistical requirements are in play for 

18 that particular piece. 

19 MR. BOESENBERG: Ultimately, it was 

20 a rounding decision. 

21 MR. STEPHENS: To the nearest? 

22 MR. BOESENBERG: Exactly. It depends 
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1 on the lumens range you're talking about. It's 

2 somewhat arbitrary. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Do you 

4 have a follow-on comment? 

5 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Pekka Hakkarainen. 

6 I have a different comment. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead. 

8 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Not a follow-on on 

9 this particular topic. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

11 DR. HAKKARAINEN: I'm just curious 

12 here, when you're saying that the testing 

13 would require a minimum of two lamps over a 

14 seven-month production period, does that mean 

15 that new products cannot be placed into market 

16 before there is seven months worth of 

17 production, plus the 1,000 hours of testing to 

18 median life? 

19 MS. GUPTA: Yes, I think the next --

20 this is Mimi Gupta. I think the next slide 

21 will discuss that. As I mentioned before, DOE 

22 is proposing that there be an initial 
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1 certification based on whatever engineering 

2 and technical data that manufacturers may have 

3 on their product before distribution of 

4 products, and then after one year of sampling 

5 and testing have occurred, manufacturers will 

6 have to submit the final certification report 

7 based on the full testing procedure. 

8 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Okay. This is 

9 Pekka, again. What happens in the event that 

10 there is a disagreement between the 

11 engineering analysis that is used for placing 

12 a product on the market and the testing that 

13 is conducted a year later? 

14 MS. GUPTA: A disagreement meaning 

15 that the product is actually not compliant? 

16 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Okay, I'll accept 

17 that example. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Betsy. 

19 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. I 

20 think the previous sale would be a question 

21 for our enforcement folks. And if you want to 

22 submit a comment, I can have Laura Barhydt, 
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1 who's our enforcement attorney, take a look at 

2 that. But I think, certainly, for the most 

3 recent testing data, if it shows non4 compliance, you would need to stop selling 

5 them until it's fixed. But the previous was a 

6 question for our enforcement folks. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve 

8 Rosenstock. 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I 

10 guess this comes in, and just because of the 

11 EISA 2007, putting that minimum lifetime 

12 requirement now, so I guess if there were 

13 changes compared to the traditional ones --

14 again, I haven't looked at EISA 2007. I 

15 believe they were mostly 1,000 hours, but if 

16 there were any changes that were different 

17 from I'll say traditional lifetimes, that's 

18 where this all could really play an impact. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Keith? 

20 MR. COOKE: An additional comment. 

21 NEMA overall, I think, opposes the expansion 

22 of the incandescent lamp test requirements 
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1 beyond that's required by EISA, especially 

2 annual testing. It's a significant burden. 

3 We understand that it is required 

4 for EISA, and we have no problem with that. 

5 Standing beyond that, we question the 

6 authority of the DOE to do that. So, as a 

7 result, we also are concerned about the 

8 proposed seven, now 12-month sampling 

9 requirements as referenced in the document 

10 being extended to these other lamps, as well. 

11 We don't believe that it really has 

12 applicability. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Just 

14 to confirm, these detailed comments you'll 

15 submit in writing? 

16 MR. COOKE: Yes. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Thank 

18 you. Okay. So, additional questions or 

19 comments on these issues? 

20 (No response.) 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

22 MS. KIENLE: Okay. So, here we're 
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1 going to address the proposed filing 

2 requirements for new GSIL models. And they're 

3 going to be similar to that of GSFLs and IRLs. 

4 First, the initial certification 

5 report, which describes the methodology used 

6 to determine that the model meets or exceeds 

7 standards is to be submitted prior to or 

8 concurrent with the distribution of a new 

9 model. And then the final certification 

10 report based on full sampling provisions is to 

11 be submitted one year following the start of 

12 the manufacturing of the new model. DOE 

13 requests comment on its proposal regarding 

14 GSIL certification filing requirements. 

15 DOE has also determined no 

16 significant economic impact on a substantial 

17 number of small entities. DOE seeks comment 

18 regarding this conclusion. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, we have 

20 two comment boxes there on contiguous slides. 

21 Keith? 

22 MR. COOKE: Yes. On the last one --
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1 Keith Cooke from Philips. 

2 We believe that there is a 

3 significant potential impact here. We 

4 actually went through and did an analysis on 

5 what the cost would be of setting up one of 

6 these racks in order to perform the testing, 

7 and it's not insignificant. 

8 The rack itself would cost almost 

9 $28,000, the sockets is $1,400, the regulator 

10 to run it would be $40,000, power drops 

11 $1,500, labor for the drops would be 18.5, the 

12 rack labor would be $20,000, to install the 

13 regulator would be $10,000, for a total of 

14 $132,800. And then on top of that to run the 

15 testing each year would be an additional 

16 $60,000. So, for the small manufacturers this 

17 is a significant burden. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan? 

19 MS. ANDERSON: And for larger 

20 manufacturers that manufacture in multiple 

21 locations, I mean this cost would be repeated 

22 in each manufacturing location. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Mike? 

2 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan. 

3 Keith, I wonder if you could just elaborate on 

4 what components of the test procedure you're 

5 referring to that would add up to those 

6 amounts? 

7 MR. COOKE: This is for the lifetime 

8 testing. 

9 MR. McGARAGHAN: Just the lifetime. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And that's 

11 all the infrastructure for the lifetime 

12 testing. 

13 MR. COOKE: Correct. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

15 MR. McGARAGHAN: And are you 

16 proposing an alternative of some sort, or 

17 suggesting that any lifetime testing is a 

18 significant burden of that order? 

19 MR. COOKE: For all the products 

20 that are covered under this framework, and all 

21 the requirements that are laid out in this 

22 thing, that's what's required. What we're 
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1 saying is either we cut out some of the 

2 products, or we cut out some of the testing. 

3 We believe that the testing really is beyond 

4 the DOE's auspices, anyway. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, I was 

6 unclear. I was unclear if Keith, either you or 

7 NEMA are making a recommendation for how the 

8 Department of Energy should proceed with this. 

9 Alex? 

10 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

11 Boesenberg, NEMA. The hedge my bet response is 

12 we are still working on our comments. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

14 MR. BOESENBERG: Which is quite 

15 true. The numbers Keith supplied, obviously, 

16 are pertinent to one company. I have those 

17 figures, however, circulating among my 

18 membership for confirmation. At least one has 

19 already confirmed that -- but I had no dissent 

20 when those numbers were floated, so that will 

21 be part of our comments. As far as what Keith 

22 said, where we'll draw the line between 
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1 exempting some products versus reduction of 

2 testing, we haven't reached that conclusion 

3 yet. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks 

5 for that clarity. Yes, Tina? 

6 MS. KAARSBERG: I had a follow-on 

7 question. It would be really helpful if you 

8 could provide costs, sort of net costs, costs 

9 added on to what you already have to do for 

10 other things just to kind of us give us a 

11 sense of what the relative costs are. And if 

12 you do end up suggesting an alternative having 

13 those costs would also be quite helpful. And 

14 the more apples-to-apples, if I can use that 

15 term, these costs comparisons are, the better 

16 for us. Thank you. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. So, 

18 you've already initiated among your members 

19 that they compare and validate those costs, so 

20 that's also very helpful. Alex, go ahead. 

21 No? Okay. Yes, Mike? 

22 MR. McGARAGHAN: Sorry, one more 
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1 clarification. Those numbers were assuming 

2 that you're not allowed to do accelerated 

3 testing, or it doesn't matter? 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keith? 

5 MR. COOKE: It doesn't matter, 

6 because you'd still have to have all of those 

7 different facilities, even if it's accelerated 

8 life testing. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So, 

10 additional comments on this series? 

11 (No response.) 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'm looking 

13 at Maureen. Did they address issue eight? 

14 MS. KIENLE: Yes, I think we 

15 discussed that previously -- 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

17 MS. KIENLE: -- actually before we 

18 got to this slide. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Great. Okay. 

20 So, then let's put the next slide up there. 

21 MS. KIENLE: Okay. Finally, this 

22 slide provides information on submitting 
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1 comments on the NOPR. Comments can be 

2 submitted by email, postal mail or courier. 

3 And please note again the comment period for 

 th

4 the test procedure ends November 28 , 2011 at 

5 midnight. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, I think 

7 we're about ready to take a break, as 

8 described in the agenda, and where we are in 

9 terms of the content. Let me thank those are 

10 listening via the web. If you have questions 

11 and comments, please try and send them in and 

12 try and keep them short, and we'll try and 

13 introduce them into the conversation here in 

14 the Forrestal Building. 

15 It's now 10 after 10:00. Let's 

16 take a 15-minute break, which means we'll 

17 resume at 10:25 in this room. This room will 

18 be -- people will be in here so you can leave 

19 your stuff. Please, you need to have your 

20 badge visible as you walk around the Forrestal 

21 Building. And I think most of you are 

22 familiar with the building. There are 
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1 restrooms on both ends of the halls. There's 

2 a coffee shop on the ground floor directly 

3 beneath us almost, but don't tarry. Go 

4 quickly, because we will resume at 10:25. 

5 Okay. We'll see you back here then. 

6 (Whereupon, the proceedings went 

7 off the record at 10:09 a.m., and went back on 

8 the record at 10:25 a.m.) 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, let's 

10 start it back up then. Welcome back. As Tina 

11 was just describing, we're making the 

12 transition to the standards segment of this 

13 day, and as we promised, we wanted to provide 

14 an opportunity for summary remarks, key issues 

15 that anybody that wants to might raise right 

16 now. Alex, you want to start? Yes, Alex. 

17 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

18 Boesenberg of NEMA. It looks like three 

19 pages, but I made the type really big so I 

20 could read it easily. And I apologize if it 

21 sounds like I'm reading a script, but what I 

22 have here -- and I'll also provide an 
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1 electronic copy as part of the comments. These 

2 are several noteworthy concerns that NEMA and 

3 its members have specifically regarding the 

4 framework document, so I'll just get right to 

5 it. 

6 So, NEMA and its members, as 

7 always, want to thank the Department of Energy 

8 and its staff for the many years of 

9 collaboration and commitment that we've 

10 displayed in working together with industry 

11 and other stakeholders to pursue sensible 

12 product regulation with the goal of improving 

13 product efficiency and performance for that 

14 nation as a whole. 

15 Regarding today's subject, the 

16 framework document for GSFL and IRL, we have 

17 several very strong concerns over the timing, 

18 the approach, and the feasibility of the 

19 rulemaking and the associated analysis which 

20 influences suggestions and preliminary 

21 determinations in the framework. 

22 I'll skip the part about NEMA is 
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1 the association of -- founded in. So, 

2 specifically, the NEMA lamp section 

3 represented here today by several North 

4 American and globally based manufacturers 

5 wishes to convey several points regarding our 

6 concerns. 

7 First, we are concerned over the 

8 timing of the rulemaking in terms of the 

9 effective dates of the previous rule. While we 

10 recognize the Department is initiating this 

11 rulemaking at this time to manage its time and 

12 resources in order to meet its statutory 

13 obligations under EPACT '92 for a Tier 2 

14 rulemaking, beginning at this early date, 

15 which is approximately two years after 

16 completion of the Tier 1 rule, and almost a 

17 year before the effective date of the Tier 1 

18 rule, this comes at a cost to DOE that should 

19 not be under-appreciated. 

20 The cost which we ask you to 

21 acknowledge now is that the quality of the 

22 information used in developing the proposals 
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1 at this early stage is likely poor. We note 

2 that EPACT '92, 46 USC 62.95(i)(3) and (4) 

3 contemplate that the Tier 2 rulemaking would 

4 be initiated no later than six months after 

5 the effective date of the Tier 1 rule. 

6 While these provisions do not 

7 prevent DOE from initiating the process 

8 earlier, as you have, it's certainly implicit 

9 in the structure of the statute that Congress 

10 saw wisdom in beginning the Tier 2 rule after 

11 there was some experience with the Tier 1 

12 standard in the marketplace that would 

13 generate useful information for the Tier 2 

14 decision making. 

15 Consequently, NEMA cautions the DOE 

16 against becoming too invested in early stage 

17 analysis, and what are the early stage 

18 determinations until the informational 

19 landscape settles, and the marketplace has had 

20 an opportunity to adjust to the Tier 1 

21 standard. Some of our comments below further 

22 illustrate our specific concerns. 
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1 Second, we're concerned about the 

2 timing and content of the rule in terms of the 

3 sourcing, price fluctuations, and uncertainty 

4 surrounding rare earth elements; specifically, 

5 yttrium, terbium, and europium. 

6 Given the current situation with 

7 rare earths and triphosphor availability 

8 concerns, it seems premature and inappropriate 

9 to start considering further efficiency 

10 requirements for general service fluorescent 

11 lamps, a product that is already one of the 

12 most efficient light sources available. 

13 Any rulemaking which further 

14 increases the demand of rare earth elements 

15 must also bear in mind emerging evidence of 

16 consumer backlash due to rising lamp costs and 

17 potential reduction of product options from 

18 the manufacturers. We have noted rising prices 

19 are already impacting energy efficiency 

20 retrofit business by making the paybacks in 

21 return on investment projections outside of 

22 what end-users consider acceptable. 
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1 Third, to follow-up on the timing 

2 of the beginning of the rulemaking, we object 

3 to the initial analysis and its numerous 

4 speculative assumptions and projections made 

5 in terms of product demand, availability and 

6 pricing which were then extrapolated to 

7 determine the proposed efficacy levels, and 

8 other determinations in the framework. 

9 Manufacturers are still making 

10 investments in equipment and determining what 

11 products they will offer on July 14, 2012. 

12 Many products in current manufacturers' 

13 catalogues will no longer be available on that 

14 date. It is irresponsible to speculate as to 

15 which products will still be available, their 

16 corresponding level of consumer demand, and at 

17 what price they'll both be produced and sold 

18 at, when instead we can simply wait and obtain 

19 hard data instead of guessing. 

20 Energy savings projections for this 

21 rule stand to be considerably more accurate 

22 when based on hard data rather than 
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1 projections based off years old data, which 

2 itself was generated through analysis and 

3 projection. 

4 In regards to any rebuttal to the 

5 effect that this framework is only a set of 

6 suggestions, we refer to the observed practice 

7 that positions stated in the framework are 

8 less likely to be abandoned or greatly changed 

9 over the course of a rulemaking. In that 

10 sense, far too much of the final rule is 

11 already written down, and we have some 

12 disagreements with that. 

13 Fourth, we disagree the 

14 Manufacturer Impact Statements as given on the 

15 grounds they do not adequately address the 

16 cumulative effect of the numerous concurrent 

17 rulemakings being carried out in addition to 

18 this one. While cumulative regulatory burden 

19 has been the subject of many political 

20 speeches of late, it's overlooked and is a 

21 particularly difficult problem in this 

22 rulemaking, particularly for the smaller 
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1 manufacturers, as we already spoke about a 

2 little bit during the testing there for 

3 incandescents. 

4 Small manufacturers are even harder 

5 hit and should not have to bear an unfair 

6 burden as a result of overly aggressive 

7 policies. There's also the added burden of 

8 significantly more testing and reporting of a 

9 lot of small sales volume lamps which would 

10 result from the proposed increase in 

11 regulation. This, again, is much harder on 

12 small manufacturers, especially if they have 

13 to get the testing at a NVLAP source facility 

14 and pay for those associated costs. 

15 As I noted already, manufacturers 

16 are a group still making capital and personnel 

17 investments in this poor economy to meet the 

18 demands of the previous rulemaking. There's 

19 also internal competition for testing 

20 facilities internal to the companies due to 

21 the other products that are already being 

22 designed, not to mention that most of our R&D 
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1 focus today is on LED and OLED. 

2 Because fluorescent products are 

3 considered to be conventional aging 

4 technology, there isn't nearly as much 

5 incentive to devote research and development 

6 time and testing to those products. 

7 And, lastly, in terms of 

8 manufacturer impact, in regards to what 

9 products are determined affected and listed as 

10 the affected products in the framework, we 

11 object to the cross-referencing from one 

12 actor's statutory authority document to 

13 another in generating a list of products 

14 affected, and the extent of that effect. 

15 Scope creep, if you will, is a concern. 

16 Fifth, we object to the death by a 

17 thousand cuts approach being employed and 

18 sweeping up numerous small market share 

19 products, as I already mentioned, in demanding 

20 extensive attention and analysis for each of 

21 these in order to gain the test data needed, 

22 and to thus justify the energy savings needed 
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1 to justify a rulemaking. 

2 In the framework document, as an 

3 example, different product classes identified 

4 in general service fluorescent lamp 

5 projections represent the bulk of products 

6 used in professional consumer sectors. It's 

7 not practical to use the analysis of these 

8 products for other fluorescent lamp types, 

9 such as two-foot, three-foot, five-foot, or 

10 circline. These are low volume niche products 

11 and special applications that in so many cases 

12 aren't designed specifically for efficiency, 

13 but rather to satisfy consumer demand or a 

14 niche application. 

15 So, it seems that some of these 

16 aggressive aggregations of projections that 

17 are done either to provide sufficient data for 

18 analysis or to provide more advantageous 

19 numbers in terms of the energy savings, or 

20 just to make up for a lack of data. In these 

21 cases, we suggest that instead the situation, 

22 as it stands, should identify, therefore, a 
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1 product which is not appropriate for 

2 regulation owing to its limited effect. 

3 And my last point, and I'll 

4 summarize, sixth, we object to the undertaking 

5 like so many regulatory undertakings of late 

6 seems to be conducted with a proverbial no-end 

7 in sight. While additional ruling or another 

8 look might be mandated, there's an 

9 overwhelming displayed attitude of we will 

10 always conduct a detailed rulemaking. We will 

11 always effect to the design and availability 

12 of as many products as possible, while 

13 recognizing and support energy efficiency. 

14 Since I came into this job in June, 

15 I've been asking throughout the various 

16 product sectors has anybody ever heard of them 

17 not having a rulemaking, deciding one is not 

18 needed? I have yet to find any concrete 

19 example of that. 

20 We applaud the Secretary in getting 

21 rid of the backlog in the rules, but that 

22 doesn't mean we always we have to have a rule. 
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1 And we're arguing that in the case of several 

2 of the products we don't think it's needed. 

3 So, our suggestions are that, 

4 number one, the DOE delay the beginning of the 

5 rulemaking as long as legally permissible so 

6 as to allow for the largest amount of usable 

7 data to be gathered for the potentially 

8 affected products. In the case of catalogue 

9 and product availability, this is July 2012, 

10 and in the case of sales, the end of 2012 at 

11 the earliest. 

12 Number two, we suggest a framework 

13 document be entirely reworked to remove any 

14 details which were arrived at or generated by 

15 the above-mentioned poor quality data or the 

16 analysis therefrom. 

17 Number three, we suggest the scope 

18 of the products affected be restricted to 

19 those specified in the original EPACT of 1992. 

20 And, four, when you do restart the 

21 rulemaking and determining baseline product 

22 family performance, as well as associated max 
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1 tech estimates, only products which are truly 

2 represented be used for a given product class. 

3 Those are my comments. Thank you. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

5 Any additional comments here at the outset? 

6 Steve Rosenstock. 

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

8 Edison Electric Institute. Thank you for 

9 allowing me the opportunity to speak. 

10 I think it's important, especially 

11 for this rulemaking, is to kind of see where 

12 we are with the current rule, and relating to 

13 some of my concerns with the way the framework 

14 document -- some of the framework document. 

 th

15 Looking at the July 14 , 2009 

16 rulemaking, that was a significant rule for 

17 both general service fluorescent lamps and 

18 incandescent reflector lamps. For both 

19 products, there were five trial standard 

20 levels in the Federal Register Notice. DOE 

21 chose Trial Standard Level 4. Trial Standard 

22 Level 5 was max tech. Okay? So, DOE went 
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1 almost as high as it possibly could, 

2 basically, with the last rulemaking in 2009, 

3 which goes into effect next summer. 

4 Some of the quotes I thought were 

5 very interesting, especially because it's 

6 obviously residential and commercial product, 

7 and a lot of the savings, especially, are 

8 probably more likely geared -- going to be in 

9 the commercial sector rather than residential 

10 sector. But kind of speaking as a consumer, as 

11 well as Edison Electric Institute, some of the 

12 things kind of jump out, especially when 

13 you're thinking about the residential market. 

14 DOE expects under the standards 

15 presented in the final rule the purchase price 

16 of high efficacy GSFL would be higher, up to 

17 13 times higher, including the purchase of new 

18 lamps and a new ballast. And thinking about 

19 the residential sector, someone who has T12 

20 lamps or T12 fixture that's been there 10, 15, 

21 20 years, they can't replace that T12 lamp any 

22 more starting in July of 2012. 
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1 That consumer is going to go to a 

2 hardware store, he's going to find the T12 

3 lamp, maybe they'll try a T8 lamp, it won't 

4 work because the ballast won't be compatible. 

5 Then they'll realize they have to replace the 

6 whole fixture. And yes, over the life of that 

7 fixture, maybe over 10, or 15, or 20, or even 

8 30 years it will pay for itself, but there 

9 might be some very unhappy residential 

10 consumers. Commercial, obviously, a lot of 

11 them have been making changes already. 

12 On the incandescent reflector side, 

13 it says, "DOE expects a purchase price of 

14 higher efficacy IRL to be 47 to 64 percent 

15 higher than the average price of these 

16 products today." Obviously, there's going to 

17 be good paybacks in the commercial sector, but 

18 in the residential sector there could be 

19 significantly long periods of payback to 

20 customers 10 or 20 years. 

21 Also, in that same notice, the 

22 Department of Justice said, "With respect to 
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1 IRLs, the Department is concerned that 

2 proposed Trial Standard Level 4 could 

3 adversely affect competition." The Department 

4 of Justice concerns were pretty much noted by 

5 DOE, but then pretty much kind of said well, 

6 we think there will be competition. 

7 So, I think the last rulemaking was 

8 a significant game changer for these products, 

9 especially in the residential sector. There 

10 could be some very interesting consumer 

11 reaction next summer when they see some of 

12 these price increases, because obviously the 

13 residential sector is very, very focused on 

14 initial prices. 

15 I know DOE, to its credit, looks at 

16 life cycle costs but, again, when you're 

17 talking these significant price increases, it 

18 will have an impact on the market, in my view. 

19 Taking a look at the framework 

20 document, I did -- when looking through all 

21 the numbers, some of the numbers went up --

22 medium bi-pin went up from 75 to 89 lumens 
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1 per watt, eight-foot slimline went from 80 to 

2 97 lumens per watt, et cetera. And then I 

3 looked at some of the proposed efficacy levels 

4 in Table 6.5 and 6.6, and I'm seeing numbers 

5 like 89 to 93 lumens per watt for the four6 foot medium bi-pin, but the baseline lamp is 

7 92.3 lumens per watt, so you're really 

8 thinking about maybe 92.3 to 93. For the 

9 eight-foot slimline, 97 to 98. 

10 I mean, the gains are very modest 

11 that we are looking at in the framework 

12 document. Another thing that's missing in 

13 here are any of these max tech from 2009? I 

14 couldn't find it. But if it is, think about 

15 it. If these numbers are max tech, there's 

16 not much difference between the floor and the 

17 ceiling for all these technologies because of 

18 the last rulemaking when you get right down to 

19 it. 

20 So, I think a concern is, and it's 

21 not shown in here, is basically are these max 

22 tech, or is there a little bit more head room 
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1 with some of these products? If there is, 

2 great. If not, then you might have to think 

3 about what -- is there really enough 

4 justification for this? 

5 So, I understand the need, and I 

6 understand the mandates, and I appreciate the 

7 -- I also appreciate DOE having a framework, 

8 by the way, because I know under the new 

9 procedures sometimes DOE can skip the 

10 framework and go right to the preliminary 

11 analysis. So, I do want to say I really 

12 appreciate having the framework because I 

13 think it can help with DOE in their 

14 preliminary analysis, especially with some of 

15 the timing of some of these other technical 

16 standards. But I think it's really -- and 

17 it's not shown in the framework. I think it 

18 really kind of -- it's kind of missing in 

19 terms of the big leap that was done by the 

20 last rulemaking in potentially looking at max 

21 tech as a new efficiency level here. And I 

22 think if these are max tech, I think it should 
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1 be noted in future analysis and future 

2 publication, because that is very, very 

3 significant. 

4 Thank you very much for your time. 

5 Appreciate it. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

7 Additional comments here before we get into 

8 the content? Joanna? 

9 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just in 

10 terms of timing. We, of course, support DOE 

11 using the most recent data available for 

12 developing the rule, but DOE rulemaking 

13 typically takes about three years from start 

14 to finish. And given the deadline for the 

15 final rule, I think it's about two and a half 

16 years out from now, so I think it's certainly 

17 appropriate for DOE to initiate the rule at 

18 this point given the volume of analysis that 

19 has to be conducted between now and then. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank 

21 you. Additional comments? Just as we were 

22 going to break we received a comment from 
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1 someone on line. This is from Lindsay Steel, 

2 and she writes -- I think this is a question. 

3 "A minimum of seven months at two times lamps 

4 does not equal required minimum sample size of 

5 20 lamps?" 

6 MS. GUPTA: Yes. This is Mimi 

7 Gupta. So, I think that question refers to 

8 the test procedure minimum sample requirements 

9 for lifetime. And just as a clarification, I 

10 think the proposal was to say a minimum of two 

11 samples for at least seven months, and then 

12 the remaining sample to fill in the rest of 

13 the 20 could be chosen at the manufacturer's 

14 discretion. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So, 

16 then now we're moving on to the Standards side 

17 of today's work. And let's hear from 

18 Aisha. 

19 Ms. HUSAIN: Hi, my name is Aisha 

20 Husain, I'm with Navigant. And I'll be 

21 presenting the GSFL-IRL framework document. 

22 So, the purpose of the framework 
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1 document is to present how DOE plans to 

2 determine energy conservation standards, and 

3 we will be going through the methodology DOE 

4 is planning to use for each analysis of the 

5 rulemaking. We will first start with a brief 

6 background, including the regulatory history 

7 and the scope of coverage. 

8 This slide presents the regulatory 

9 history of GSFL and IRL standards. The Energy 

10 Policy and Conservation Act of 1992 amended 

11 EPCA establishing energy conservation 

12 standards for certain classes of GSFLs and 

13 IRLs, and authorized DOE to conduct two 

14 rulemaking cycles to determine whether these 

15 standards should be amended, and to adopt 

16 standards for additional GSFLs, if warranted. 

17 EISA 2007 made amendments that 

18 impacted covered IRLs, it expanded the 

19 definition of IRLs to include lamps with a 

20 diameter between 2.25 and 2.75 inches. It 

21 also expanded the definition to elliptical 

22 reflector or ER, bulged reflector or BR, 
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1 parabolic reflector or PAR, or bulged 

2 parabolic aluminized reflector, or similar 

3 bulb shapes. It set standards for these lamps 

4 but exempted certain other IRLs, which we will 

5 discuss in more detail a little later. 

6 In 2009, DOE published a final rule 

7 that was the first revision of standards for 

8 GSFLs and IRLs. We will refer to this as the 

9 2009 Lamps Rule throughout the presentation. 

10 This rulemaking constitutes the 

11 second review of GSFL and IRL standards. It 

12 will also determine whether standards should 

13 be set for additional GSFL lamp types that are 

14 not already covered. 

15 So, the framework document was 

16 published in September. DOE plans to publish 

17 the preliminary analysis TSD by September 

18 2012, plans to publish the NOPR by August 

19 2013, final rule by April 2014, and any 

20 amended standards would take effect three 

21 years after the final rule is published, which 

22 would be estimated at April 2017. DOE will 
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1 hold public meetings to receive comments at 

2 the preliminary and the NOPR stages. 

3 This table shows the seven factors 

4 EPCA directs DOE to consider when setting 

5 energy conservation standards. It also shows 

6 the corresponding analysis that address each 

7 factor. We will be discussing these in more 

8 detail throughout the presentation. 

9 So, the next two slides are just a 

10 review of the GSFL and IRL standards that will 

11 go into effect in 2012. These were set by the 

12 2009 Lamps Rule. So, here we have the GSFL 

13 standards, which are in lumens per watt, vary 

14 by lamp type and correlated color temperature, 

15 or CCT, which is in degrees Kelvin. Standards 

16 are kept constant across wattages. DOE 

17 projects that these standards will be 

18 achieved with more efficacious T8 lamps; in 

19 particular, the use of improved 800 series 

20 rare earth phosphor technology. 

21 These are the standards for the 

22 2012 standards for IRLs. They are based on a 
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1 power law equation in which the efficacy 

2 varies by the rated wattage of the lamp, which 

3 is denoted by P here. DOE projects these 

4 standards can be met by improved halogen, 

5 infrared, or HIR lamps that use improved 

6 reflector coatings, improved HIR coatings, and 

7 improved capsule designs. 

8 So, now I'll move on into the scope 

9 of coverage. For GSFLs, DOE defines general 

10 service fluorescent lamp as any fluorescent 

11 lamp that can satisfy the majority of 

12 fluorescent lighting applications. Currently, 

13 energy conservation standards cover the types 

14 of GSFLs shown under this first bullet. 

15 In addition to reviewing and 

16 amending standards for the six fluorescent 

17 lamp types listed here, this rulemaking will 

18 consider expanding coverage to additional lamp 

19 types. DOE will determine if additional lamp 

20 types should be covered based on whether the 

21 standards will result in energy savings. And, 

22 also, whether they would be technologically 
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1 feasible, and economically justified. 

2 At this stage of the rulemaking, 

3 DOE is considering looking at possible 

4 additions as pin-based compact fluorescent 

5 lamps. Based on some preliminary research, we 

6 believe that the percentage of shipments for 

7 pin-based GFLs compared to currently covered 

8 GSFLs is approximately 11 percent. Some of 

9 the other additional lamp types that we are 

10 looking at are nonlinear fluorescent lamps, 

11 such as circline lamp types, and also lamps of 

12 non-standard lengths, two, three, five foot 

13 that are not currently covered. 

14 IRLs currently covered by standards 

15 are lamps that have ER, BR, PAR, BPAR, or 

16 similar bulb shapes with medium screw bases. 

17 They would have a rated voltage between 115 

18 and 130 volts, a diameter that exceeds 2.25 

19 inches, rated wattage that is 40 watts or 

20 higher, and they are not colored or intended 

21 for rough or vibration service applications. 

22 As mentioned previously, EISA 2007 
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1 exempted certain incandescent reflector lamps 

2 which are listed under the second bullet. 

3 Therefore, standards for these lamps were not 

4 described as a part of the 2009 Lamps Rule. 

5 However, subsequently, DOE determined that 

6 these lamps were exempted from standards 

7 specified in the ESA 2007 but not from future 

8 regulations. DOE, therefore, has initiated a 

9 new rulemaking to set standards for these 

10 lamps specifically. 

11 The framework document for this 

12 rulemaking was published April 2010, and a 

13 public meeting was held May 2010. So, since a 

14 separate rulemaking is in process for them, 

15 this rulemaking will not be covering these 

16 particular lamps. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve 

18 Rosenstock. 

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

20 EEI. I've said this with other products. And, 

21 again, it would be up to the manufacturers. 

22 If these can be considered competitive 
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1 products, you know, reflector lamps that serve 

2 certain purposes, it might be advisable, if 

3 possible, to in the future at least try to do 

4 all these rulemakings at the same time. They 

5 affect the same manufacturers, the same 

6 stakeholders. And if there's a way to combine 

7 all these rulemakings in the future, I think 

8 it would be one way to streamline it, because 

9 it could be considered competitive products so 

10 that, again, depending on the timing of the 

11 actual standard, if some have significantly 

12 lower standards than the other products, and 

13 their could be price points, it might make 

14 sense, again, in the same competitive market 

15 to try to do the standards for all these 

16 products at the same time at some point in the 

17 future. Thank you. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Tim Ballo. 

19 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with Earth 

20 Justice. I was also wondering if the 

21 Department could give any hint as to whether 

22 it's thinking about merging the exempted IRL 
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1 rulemaking with this rulemaking going down the 

2 road, or you still intend to proceed with that 

3 as a separate rulemaking all through the 

4 process? 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Betsy. 

6 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. 

7 We're still considering it as a separate 

8 rulemaking. 

9 MS. ANDERSON: Just pull the 

10 microphone towards you. 

11 MR. BALLO: I also had another lamp 

12 to discuss, the medium base compact 

13 fluorescent lamp had standards set under EPACT 

14 in 2005. I think our position is that it's 

15 actually due now for the six-year review that 

16 was enacted under EISA. In either case, even 

17 under a more -- under a different 

18 interpretation of EISA, it wouldn't be due for 

19 that six-year review for a couple of years 

20 yet, but I think it makes sense to probably 

21 look at those lamps also in this rulemaking. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keith, and 
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1 then Alex. 

2 MR. COOKE: On the general service 

3 fluorescent lamps, in light of the rare earth 

4 phosphor situation, we don't recommend 

5 extending the coverage beyond what's already 

6 covered. It will only exacerbate the problem 

7 we have with rare earth phosphor. And, 

8 furthermore, the volume of those products is 

9 very small, so the energy savings that could 

10 be obtained are also very small. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex. 

12 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

13 NEMA. I have two points. 

14 First, regarding incandescent 

15 lamps, obviously, driving them to higher 

16 efficiency for those that are already 

17 redesigned with halogen capsules, the obvious 

18 implication is that these lamps are redesigned 

19 with the halogen capsules. I'm currently 

20 engaged in replying to a different rulemaking 

21 about the infeasibility of at least one 

22 product type that we simply cannot make it 
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1 with a halogen capsule due to its size. 

2 When you put a halogen capsule in a 

3 formerly standard filament incandescent lamp 

4 you have to -- there are two primary 

5 considerations. One is that the distance 

6 between the capsule inside and the glass 

7 envelope outside be sufficient regarding 

8 Underwriters Laboratories safety standards for 

9 the heat of that surface. And the other 

10 consideration for reflector lamps, in 

11 particular, is that the position of the 

12 capsule and the design of the reflector be 

13 sufficient to give it the right light 

14 characteristics so that it is a one-for-one 

15 replacement for an incandescent filament lamp. 

16 This is not always possible, and it's a 

17 sticking point. If we can't make it, we can't 

18 make it. 

19 So, I'll leave that there. And to 

20 amplify Mr. Cooke's comment on tubular 

21 fluorescent lamps, and to drive home again the 

22 rare earth element issue, there are several 
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1 factors at play, one of which is that China 

2 for sake of what they have called a 

3 humanitarian and safety improvements have 

4 closed these mines. They could have closed 

5 the coal mine, but they didn't. Speculation 

6 on these products began some years ago, and 

7 the prices have gone up not by multiples, but 

8 by orders of magnitude. Further increase on 

9 that demand strains an already overburdened 

10 demand. 

11 Furthermore, due to the current 

12 trade relations, it's fairly easy to get --

13 comparatively speaking, you can get rare 

14 earths much more easily if you're located in 

15 the country that's producing them. If you're 

16 not, you're paying that 4,500 percent increase 

17 for that product. And to cut it short, we're 

18 talking jobs, because we can make linear 

19 fluorescent somewhere else, but right now we 

20 like to make them in the U.S., and we want to 

21 continue to be able to do so. 

22 So, as I said in my prior remarks, 
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1 these are niche applications, and while yes, 

2 you could try to ramp their efficiency up so 

3 you can get your overall percentage savings 

4 you're going for, in the end if on the 

5 individual family basis they really don't save 

6 that much, we would argue that there's not a 

7 cost benefit to redesign and further 

8 exacerbating demand on the product, the raw 

9 materials, I mean. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Pekka? 

11 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Pekka Hakkarainen, 

12 Lutron. I'm going back to Slide 33, which 

13 shows the rulemaking time line, and I'm just 

14 going to note that in my opinion, the 

15 September 2012 date for the technical support 

16 document is way too early. We will not have 

17 had -- I'm sort of stating what Alex said 

18 earlier in the preliminary comments, we will 

19 not have had any experience with the new rule 

20 that comes into effect in July really worth 

21 noting by that time. And I'm concerned that 

22 based on historical evidence that when 
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1 technical support documents are published, 

2 that they tend not to change after that. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 So, we've got a good start on it here. Mike, 

5 please. 

6 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan, 

7 Energy Solutions. I have a comment that 

8 probably will come out in various forms 

9 throughout the day, but right now it's just --

10 it's kind of a response to some of the 

11 introduction comments that have been made, and 

12 some of the comments about rare earth 

13 phosphors, and the current shortage. 

14 In general, I certainly agree that 

15 it's a dire situation for rare earths at the 

16 moment. And I also understand that the last 

17 lamp rule was a significant step forward, and 

18 that this is pretty close on the heels of that 

19 one. I think the only counterpoint I want to 

20 make is just we're talking about standards 

21 that will likely not take effect until 2017 or 

22 2018, which is seven years from now, and a lot 
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1 can change in seven years. And DOE has a 

2 pretty clear set of instructions on how to 

3 proceed with these rulemakings. And at this 

4 stage, I think those clear instructions are to 

5 identify maximum technologically feasible, and 

6 then go from there. So to be at this point in 

7 2011 already talking about what's cost8 effective, and what standard or what 

9 technology should be screened out, it's way 

10 too early for that. And I think that was 

11 actually a flaw of the last rulemaking for the 

12 last lamp rule, was that some technologies got 

13 screened out before they should have. 

14 It may turn out in the end that for 

15 some of these technologies, they're not cost16 effective, but I'm missing the four points 

17 right now that DOE is supposed to use to 

18 screen out technologies at this stage. I think 

19 it's feasibility to manufacture or install --

20 help me out, Mimi. 

21 MS. GUPTA: Safety. 

22 MR. McGARAGHAN: Safety and health. 
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1 MS. GUPTA: Utility. Yes, they'll 

2 be going over them. 

3 MR. McGARAGHAN: Yes, we'll get 

4 there, but to start talking about screening 

5 something out right now because a material 

6 that may be needed to produce them is 

7 extremely expensive, that's just premature. 

8 So, encouraging DOE to proceed with the 

9 rulemaking, I think I agree with NEMA that 

10 September 2012 date for the TSD may be a 

11 little premature, but the overall process here 

12 that's going to take four years to get through 

13 a rulemaking, or three and a half years to get 

14 through a rulemaking still needs to plow 

15 forward and be pretty forward thinking in 

16 terms of trying to capture an appropriate 

17 standard level for 2017 or 2018. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Keith. 

19 MR. COOKE: I understand the 

20 comments, but at the same time the DOE also 

21 has very strict rules on trying to make 

22 changes after these rulemakings are already in 
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1 place. And that's got us into the problem 

2 we're facing right now, and the fact that in 

3 light of the availability of rare earth 

4 materials may actually end up shutting our 

5 plants down. And due to the anti-backsliding 

6 rules, the DOE has their hands tied on what 

7 they can do. So, we need to be very, very 

8 careful going forward. This is very dangerous 

9 to our energy savings. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex. 

11 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

12 NEMA. One minor rebuttal and then an 

13 amplifying point to Keith's statement. 

14 My math, April 2017 is only five 

15 and a half years away. It's a lot closer than 

16 it sounds on paper. And one thing I didn't 

17 mention is that NEMA is preparing a detailed 

18 analysis of the industry situation and 

19 position on rare earths. And when that's 

20 ready, when we have all the data that we are 

21 responsibly gathering to illustrate our 

22 concerns, that will be made very public. And 
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1 I will be sure to include that with our 

2 comments on this rulemaking. I expect it to be 

3 done within the next few weeks. It drives the 

4 point home, we are starting to have trouble 

5 making products today with the existing rule, 

6 not just the coming up one. We're already 

7 having trouble. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. We 

9 have a comment or a question, in fact, from 

10 someone joining us on line. This is from 

11 David Liss. He asks, "Do medium screw base 

12 CFLs fall under the GSFL scope?" 

13 MS. GUPTA: No. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No? DOE says 

15 no. Okay, thank you. Joanna. 

16 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I was just 

17 wondering, first, if DOE could say anything 

18 about the schedule for the exempt IRL 

19 rulemaking. I think we had expected to see a 

20 proposed rule by now. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Betsy. 

22 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl. 
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1 We're still working on that, but when it gets 

2 to the Register, you'll see it. 

3 MS. MAUER: Okay, thank you. And I 

4 think our preference going forward would be to 

5 not have the situation where the standards for 

6 certain types of reflector lamps may always be 

7 more stringent than the standards for other 

8 types of reflector lamps. So, we would like 

9 to see standards for these currently exempt 

10 reflector lamps be set as soon as possible to 

11 eliminate the current loophole in the market. 

12 But we'd like to avoid then having potentially 

13 the standards for the IRLs that are currently 

14 covered be raised while these other ones may 

15 not be. So, ideally, we'd like standards to 

16 be set for the exempt IRLs as soon as 

17 possible, but then also be incorporated in 

18 this current rulemaking. And the baseline for 

19 those may or may not be different, but that 

20 way going forward they'll all be on the same 

21 track, and we won't have this issue. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Pekka. 
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1 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Pekka Hakkarainen, 

2 Lutron. It's my understanding that we are not 

3 here to talk about the ER BR rulemaking today, 

4 so we are certainly not prepared to respond in 

5 any way. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So, 

7 shall we proceed? No additional comments at 

8 this point? Mike, for comment. 

9 MR. McGARAGHAN: Just another 

10 follow-on in terms of the specifics of the 

11 product class and the additional products. I 

12 think 11 percent is what you quoted as the 

13 market share, or the percent of fluorescent 

14 lamps that are in base CFLs. That sounds like 

15 a fairly significant amount to me. It doesn't 

16 sound like just a low volume niche product. 

17 And, also, just from doing a lot of 

18 lighting audits and building walk throughs, 

19 two-foot lamps and three-foot lamps are not 

20 especially rare. I can't remember doing a 

21 lighting audit in an office building that 

22 didn't have a lot of two-foot lamps in it, so 
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1 in general I think we'd like to see how the 

2 numbers pencil out, but are supportive of DOE 

3 looking into additional products. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Mimi? 

5 MS. GUPTA: Yes, Mimi Gupta. I 

6 guess I would just ask NEMA if they have any 

7 market information that would support the low 

8 market share, or what the market share is for 

9 these products. DOE would definitely 

10 appreciate that. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan? 

12 MS. ANDERSON: We have that. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. 

14 So, let's proceed. 

15 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. So, as we've 

16 mentioned earlier that -- 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: A little bit 

18 louder. 

19 MS. HUSAIN: Sure. As we mentioned 

20 earlier, in this rulemaking DOE will also be 

21 reevaluating the metric for measuring IRL 

22 efficacy. Currently, this metric is based on 
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1 lumen output per watt. 

2 In the 2009 Lamps Rule, NEMA had 

3 commented that a better method for measuring 

4 IRL efficacy was needed, and referred to 

5 application efficacy as a possibility. So, in 

6 this rulemaking DOE is considering using 

7 application efficacy metric for IRLs. 

8 Application efficacy is a type of 

9 directional lumens per watt, as has been 

10 mentioned. It is based on the idea that the 

11 effectiveness of the lamp or luminary should 

12 be quantified in terms of the lamp delivering 

13 light to locations where it is needed. It is 

14 generally measured in terms of luminous flux 

15 within a specific area or solid angle per unit 

16 power. So, in developing this metric for IRLs 

17 we would need to define the areas to be 

18 lighted depending on specific applications or 

19 relevant solid angles. 

20 We would like your comments 

21 regarding pursuing application efficacy as a 

22 metric for IRLs specifically in terms of 
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1 defining the areas for various types of 

2 reflectors, and on test procedures that would 

3 be specific to this metric. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keith? 

5 MR. COOKE: Keith Cooke, Philips. 

6 Because of the directionality and sensitivity 

7 to the center beam candlepower intensity, beam 

8 angle and field angle characteristics, a great 

9 deal of care needs to go into the development 

10 of a new metric that involves energy 

11 efficiency and human factors needs. And we've 

12 talked about this before. 

13 We believe it would be appropriate 

14 for this rulemaking to be conducted for the 

15 sole purpose of determining the metric that 

16 would replace lumens per watt for the 

17 incandescent reflector lamps. But right now, 

18 we cannot support an additional increase of 

19 the existing lumens per watt standard to the 

20 incandescent reflector lamps beyond where it's 

21 already been set for July of next year. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve 
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1 Rosenstock. 

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

3 EEI. Looking at this new proposed metric, I 

4 think it's I'll say a more sophisticated type 

5 of metric to describe especially the IRL 

6 technology. The issue is -- and, again, just 

7 speaking as a pure amateur, so please forgive 

8 me now. How many different solid angles would 

9 you have to have for the BPARs, PARs, ER, et 

10 cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then would 

11 you need to adjust for the beam angle? There 

12 are so many things that you could do to make 

13 it more sophisticated, but then again how many 

14 different categories would you have? And then 

15 it's like well, why not concentrate on the 

16 other things, like the beam angle or the field 

17 angle, or the center beam candlepower? 

18 So, I understand making it more 

19 sophisticated to make it a more useful metric. 

20 It just -- there could be a timing issue, and 

21 I think it's a matter of making sure that the 

22 industry is okay with it. And then also, 
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1 there would be the education campaign for the 

2 end use consumer because a lot of people don't 

3 even know what a lumen is, so the term what a 

4 candela is -- I mean, it might need a lot of 

5 the -- especially for the residential class 

6 might need a lot of education there. But I 

7 understand what you're trying to do. Thank 

8 you. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

10 Keith. 

11 MR. COOKE: I'm trying to think of 

12 how to word this. What we're believing right 

13 now is with the last rulemaking the standard 

14 was already set at about the max. So, the 

15 timing is still very apropos for us to go 

16 ahead and work on the new metric, because we 

17 don't, first off, support increasing the 

18 metric where it's at, so we believe it should 

19 it should stay where it's at. 

20 In the meantime, what's happening 

21 in the industry or out with the consumers is 

22 there is confusion because the solid state 
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1 lighting replacements for the incandescent 

2 reflector lamps are significantly different. 

3 So, if you get a 25 degree beam angle in an 

4 incandescent reflector lamp, what we're 

5 finding is people will prefer a 35 degree 

6 solid state light lamp to replace it. And the 

7 reason is, is because with the solid state 

8 lighting you have such a sharp cutoff, you can 

9 do so well on controlling that light that you 

10 don't have the blurring that you have with the 

11 conventional incandescent reflectors, which 

12 gave you actually larger angles than what was 

13 stated. 

14 So, it's time for us to come up with a new 

15 metric in light of the changing technology 

16 that's out there. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So, 

18 let's proceed. Oh, one more comment? Yes, 

19 Mike. 

20 MR. McGARAGHAN: A question for 

21 Keith. Can you expand a little bit on how the 

22 new metric will help address that, the -- 
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1 MR. COOKE: We don't know. 

2 MR. McGARAGHAN: Oh. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: But you all 

4 said you're working on it. Right? You started 

5 working on it? 

6 MR. COOKE: This is something that 

7 NEMA has been discussing just recently, and we 

8 have started throwing out some suggestions, 

9 but it's very early, very, very early. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good. Alex. 

11 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

12 NEMA. To amplify on Keith's statement. The 

13 phrasing of Keith's statement I hope is not 

14 lost on folks that the reason we need a new 

15 metric is not for incandescent reflector 

16 lamps. It's so that we can better characterize 

17 the new fast belle of the ball solid state 

18 everybody wants to dance with. 

19 The fact that if we write it very 

20 well so that it can apply to other 

21 technologies and it's technology neutral, and 

22 it is widely applicable, that's great, but 
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1 that illustrates my point of all the R&D, all 

2 the money, all the attention is on the new 

3 products. And that's where, when we have 

4 limited resources and time, that's where need 

5 to focus. So, that illustrates my point. 

6 Thank you. 

7 MR. COOKE: Okay. Mimi? 

8 MS. GUPTA: Mimi Gupta. So, Keith, 

9 is there some sort of time line that's been 

10 established for when the new metric that you 

11 guys are working on plans on being completed? 

12 MR. COOKE: I haven't heard anything 

13 myself. 

14 MS. GUPTA: Okay. 

15 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg. 

16 The Lighting Systems Division of NEMA is 

17 meeting for their semi-annual powwows next 

18 week. This will be one of the topics. We'll 

19 at least have some sort of idea at least on 

20 what kind of resources we're going to devote 

21 to it, and what our end goal will be next 

22 week, end of the week. But telling you 
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1 exactly when it will be ready, that's a very 

2 different question. 

3 MR. COOKE: Yes. We just had the 

4 Lamp Section Technical Committee meeting last 

5 week, and this was taken up as a new task that 

6 we were going to undertake. And we started to 

7 form the team at that meeting. So, like I 

8 said, it's very early right now. The team 

9 hasn't met yet. They have got a charter, 

10 essentially, as to what they need to get 

11 accomplished, but that's about as far as it is 

12 right now. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks, 

14 Keith. Susan. 

15 MS. ANDERSON: And the other thing 

16 is is that NEMA planned to work with the DOE 

17 on this, to partner on setting this new 

18 metric. So, we would want you in the loop, 

19 and come to a mutual decision. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mimi. 

21 MS. GUPTA: Yes. It reminds me of 

22 what happened with the ballast efficiency 
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1 metric that I think it was very helpful for 

2 the DOE to be involved, and understand the 

3 progress of that metric, and facilitate the 

4 adoption of it in the oncoming final rule. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 

6 you. Okay. Now, let's proceed. 

7 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. So, now we will 

8 be moving on to the first analyses of the 

9 standards making process, the market and 

10 technology assessment, and the screening 

11 analysis. 

12 The purpose of the market and 

13 technology assessment is to determine product 

14 classes and identify technology options to 

15 improve lamp efficacy. To do this, DOE will 

16 characterize the GSFL and IRL market. 

17 For the screening analysis, DOE 

18 will screen out technology options based on 

19 four criteria. DOE will look at technological 

20 feasibility; that is, whether the technology 

21 is commercially available or in a working 

22 prototype, practicability to manufacture, 
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1 install, and service, meaning it should be 

2 possible to achieve mass production and 

3 reliable installation and servicing. That it 

4 doesn't have any adverse impacts on utility to 

5 consumers or availability, and it doesn't have 

6 any adverse impacts on health or safety. 

7 The technology options that remain 

8 after the screening analysis are called design 

9 options. They are used in the engineering 

10 analysis to identify baseline lamps or lamp 

11 ballast systems, and higher efficacy options. 

12 We will go into more detail about this in the 

13 engineering analysis. 

14 For the market and technology 

15 assessment, DOE requests interested parties to 

16 submit data on shipments, product feature and 

17 efficiency trends, distribution channels, and 

18 estimates of market shares for the lamps. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keith? 

20 MR. COOKE: NEMA biz can help 

21 provide this information. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank 
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1 you. 

2 MS. HUSAIN: Okay, thanks. One of 

3 the main results of the market and technology 

4 assessment is the establishment of product 

5 classes which are fed into the engineering 

6 analysis. DOE divided covered product classes 

7 by type of energy used, capacity of the 

8 product, or any other performance-related 

9 features that require different standard 

10 levels, such as features affecting consumer 

11 utility. DOE establishes separate energy 

12 conservation standards for each product class. 

13 So, for GSFLs because of their 

14 impact on consumer utility, DOE is considering 

15 the following characteristics when determining 

16 product classes; physical constraints, the 

17 lamp shape and length which provide a unique 

18 utility and impact efficacy, lumen package or 

19 quantity of light provided by lamp ballast 

20 system because efficacy decreases as a system 

21 is driven harder to increase light output, the 

22 CCT or correlated color temperature which is 
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1 the measure of the perceived color of the 

2 white light emitted from the lamp which 

3 impacts efficacy and provides distinct 

4 utility. 

5 Based on these characteristics, DOE 

6 is considering the 12 product classes shown in 

7 this table on this slide. These are also the 

8 same product classes established in the 2009 

9 Lamps Rule. 

10 In particular, in the 2009 Lamps 

11 Rule, DOE had created a separate product class 

12 for T5 lamps because physical constraints 

13 prevent them from serving as direct 

14 replacements for T8 and T12 lamps, and the 

15 lamps are generally considered to be too 

16 bright for use in direct lighting. DOE 

17 welcomes comments on maintaining separate 

18 product classes for T5 lamps. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan? 

20 MS. ANDERSON: Well, NEMA absolutely 

21 supports that. The bases are different, the 

22 lamp holders are different, they're not 
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1 interchangeable products. And the actual 

2 performance varies greatly, T5, to T8, to T12. 

3 And when you look at T5 standard versus T5 

4 high output the loading is very different. And 

5 since T5 standard is actually a more efficient 

6 lamp than T5HO. I think you can see that from 

7 looking at all of our catalogues, so we 

8 definitely support keeping T5 separate, and 

9 there should be two categories of T5, the T5 

10 standard, and the T5 high output. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

12 MS. HUSAIN: Okay, thank you. We 

13 also wanted to note here that -- 

14 MS. GUPTA: Can I just ask one 

15 question? 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mimi, go 

17 ahead. 

18 MS. GUPTA: So, are T5 standard 

19 output lamps still considered generally 

20 unsuitable for direct lighting applications? 

21 I think at the -- during the last 2009 Lamps 

22 rulemaking, a lot of them were marketed as -- 
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1 MS. ANDERSON: They are typically 

2 used in shielded fixtures. You'd use them 

3 indirect or with a lens. And HO definitely 

4 has to be shielded. You don't use those 

5 direct unless you have very high -- 

6 MS. GUPTA: But some standard output 

7 T5 systems are used in some direct lighting 

8 fixtures? 

9 MS. ANDERSON: They're direct, but 

10 they're always lensed. 

11 MS. GUPTA: Okay, I see. 

12 MS. ANDERSON: So, there is an 

13 optical assembly that actually controls the 

14 distribution. 

15 MS. GUPTA: I see. 

16 MR. COOKE: Usually a diffuser. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 

18 Mike? 

19 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan, 

20 California Utilities also support separate 

21 product classes for T5s. And a follow-up 

22 question on that, since they perform so 
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1 differently at different temperatures, do they 

2 all test with the same temperature still in 

3 the test procedure? And is that up for debate 

4 in this test procedure rulemaking? 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan? 

6 MS. ANDERSON: Well, for T8 and T12, 

7 those have always been tested at 25 degrees C, 

8 which is about 77 degrees Fahrenheit. T5 were 

9 actually designed to perform better at higher 

10 temperatures, so the actual test procedure --

11 I mean, for them we test them at 35 C, but 

12 then we do a calculation to determine the 25 C 

13 ratings. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

15 MR. McGARAGHAN: So, there is no 

16 proposal to change that in the current test 

17 procedure rulemaking, that method. Okay. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Industry 

19 representatives are shaking their heads no. 

20 Okay. Okay, so then let's proceed. 

21 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. I just wanted to 

22 note that if coverage is extended to 
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1 additional GSFL types, this product class 

2 structure will need to be revised. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You've got to 

4 speak a little -- 

5 MS. HUSAIN: Sorry. So, I just 

6 wanted to note that the product class 

7 structure might be revised if there's 

8 additional GSFL lamp types included. And also, 

9 at this point, if there's any other comments 

10 in general about the GSFL product classes. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan? 

12 MS. ANDERSON: Yes. We would have 

13 to look at that, because when you do look at 

14 the shorter length lamps, they are inherently 

15 less efficient, and circline is the same way. 

16 And then pin-base compact fluorescent is a 

17 totally different animal. So, we would have -

18 - if they were included, we would have to come 

19 up with appropriate categories for them. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. 

21 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. So, for IRLs DOE 

22 is planning to consider lamp spectrum, 
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1 diameter, and lamp voltage when determining 

2 product classes similar to the 2009 Lamps 

3 Rule. 

4 The eight product classes DOE is 

5 considering are shown in this table. We may 

6 have to reconsider this product class 

7 structure also based on a potentially new IRL 

8 metric, and we would like -- welcome comments 

9 on this issue, as well. 

10 And then, in general, we'd like 

11 comments on the product classes for 

12 incandescent reflector lamps. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keith? 

14 MR. COOKE: Right now, NEMA feels 

15 that the 2009 rule has already set a minimum 

16 efficacy level sufficiently high to eliminate 

17 all 130 volt products. And this will result 

18 of loss of utility for users requiring the 

 th

19 higher voltage lamps after July 14 . 

20 Therefore, we see no further need to maintain 

21 the 130 volt product class. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, then 
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1 everything above 125 is -- are you speaking on 

2 behalf of NEMA, or -- 

3 MR. COOKE: Yes. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, then -- 

5 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, the last rule 

6 already killed 130 volt lamps. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. That 

8 was Susan. Okay. 

9 MS. KAARSBERG: That would be -- 

10 MS. ANDERSON: So, when you look at 

11 voltage, it would only be ones at 125 volts. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

13 MS. ANDERSON: You've already 

14 eliminated greater than 125 volt lamps from 

15 the marketplace. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: If I'm 

17 looking at the right chart, on 47 then that 

18 would eliminate three, four, seven, and eight? 

19 DR. HAKKARAINEN: No, no, one, two, 

20 five, and six. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, one, 

22 two -- you're right. Right, right, one, two, 
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1 five and six. 

2 MR. McGARAGHAN: So, Mike McGaraghan 

3 from the California entities. I think we would 

4 support also eliminating a distinction on 

5 voltage, but I don't think you'd define it as 

6 less than 125 volts. You could just remove any 

7 reference all together. So, regardless of the 

8 lamp's rated voltage, you would have a 

9 standard that's set for it. 

10 MR. BOESENBERG: We'd have to check. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 

12 Thank you. 

13 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. Now, we will move 

14 on to discussing technology options that 

15 improve efficacy. DOE is planning to examine 

16 the technology options outlined in the above 

17 slide for GSFL. The options cover technology 

18 such as improved electrode coatings, fill gas 

19 compositions, the use of higher efficiency 

20 phosphors, and use of glass coatings. 

21 In the 2009 Lamps Rule, DOE 

22 screened out the multi-photon phosphor 
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1 technology. DOE is planning to screen out the 

2 same technology in this rulemaking. 

3 So, we've talked a lot about this 

4 already, but I think I'll just go over this 

5 slide pretty quickly and ask -- our main point 

6 here is to ask for more comments on this 

7 issue, the rare earth phosphor's availability 

8 and pricing. 

9 So, this is in context of the 

10 higher efficiency phosphor technology option 

11 for GSFLs. The higher efficiency phosphor 

12 technology is based on improving lamp efficacy 

13 by increasing phosphor UV absorption, 

14 increasing phosphor radiation emission, or 

15 increasing the thickness of the phosphor 

16 layer. This technology utilizes rare earth 

17 phosphors. In the 2009 Lamps Rule, DOE had 

18 analyzed the rare earth phosphor market in 

19 response to manufacturer concerns that GSFL 

20 standards would drive up the rare earth 

21 phosphor prices, and subsequently the cost of 

22 lamps. And also concerns of whether there 
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1 were sufficient recoverable sources of these 

2 phosphors. 

3 DOE welcomes comments and/or any 

4 information regarding this issue. In 

5 particular, DOE would like to receive comments 

6 on the composition of rare earth phosphors 

7 being used in lamps, any estimates of 

8 additional rare earth phosphors necessary to 

9 go to higher standards, current or historical 

10 prices of rare earth phosphors, and assessment 

11 and future predictions on the relationship 

12 between the lamp cost and prices of rare earth 

13 phosphors. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keith? 

15 MR. COOKE: As Alex pointed out 

16 earlier, NEMA is in the process of putting 

17 together essentially a White Paper on that 

18 very issue, and we expect that to be out next 

19 week. So, we'll address almost that whole 

20 list. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, 

22 excellent. That's very good. Steve? 
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

2 EEI. We work with several national account 

3 energy managers throughout the U.S., and one 

4 of the email trails recently was about the 

5 price of the T8 lamps. In fact, that end user 

6 customers were seeing amounts of price 

7 increases for either 2012 in the range of 

8 anywhere from 25 to 70 percent. And those 

9 percentages are significantly higher than any 

10 projection probably shown, even dreamed about 

11 by DOE when they were doing the rulemaking. 

12 Again, who knows where the prices will go, but 

13 it just -- obviously, that's a huge 

14 significant increase, and could have 

15 significantly actually affected the last rule 

16 because there was no -- no one projected price 

17 increases like that back in 2009 or 2008 when 

18 the analysis was done. 

19 So, again, just a point of 

20 information. Again, it's all anecdotal, but I 

21 can -- I'm happy to forward some of those 

22 emails from the end user customers, but that's 
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1 what's happening this year. What will happen 

2 in the next five years, who knows, but that's 

3 what's happening now. Thank you. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan? 

5 MS. ANDERSON: I can certainly say 

6 to you that many of the utilities use the CEE 

7 high performance T8 standard which was already 

8 driving end users who were getting incentives 

9 for energy efficient retrofits to use the 

10 better products. In our particular family, it 

11 would be the XP lamps, the XPS, depending on 

12 whether it was full wattage or the super 

13 saving version, so reduced wattage. And we 

14 were getting calls from utility companies 

15 because with the incentives that they had to 

16 offer, their customers were no longer able to 

17 justify energy efficient retrofits with what 

18 had happened with the price of lamps. 

19 I mean, the marketplace forced us 

20 to raise the prices. And for my company, I 

21 mean, we went back and relooked at optimizing 

22 our phosphor coating and recently introduced a 
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1 new line of T8 lamps. And they currently meet 

2 -- for the reduced wattage lamps, they meet 

3 the CEE high performance, and meet the rules 

4 for next year, that go into effect next year. 

5 But they would not meet the proposed 

6 regulations for the next; and, yet, this is 

7 something that we've done to try to mitigate 

8 the rare earth situation and what's happening 

9 with the pricing there, so it's really -- I 

10 mean, you want to move forward with these 

11 energy efficient retrofits. I mean, that's our 

12 greatest opportunity for energy savings in 

13 this country. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keith? 

15 MR. COOKE: Also, just to make a 

16 quick comment regarding the other technologies 

17 that were listed. Right now, almost every 

18 manufacturer is focusing on LEDs or OLEDs. 

19 There is no R&D being put into these other 

20 technologies, so if the DOE is betting that 

21 one of these other technologies will be the 

22 winner, we don't see it happening. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So, 

2 additional comments? 

3 MR. McGARAGHAN: Yes, one more 

4 comment. I actually, if it's okay, wanted to 

5 jump backwards. I misspoke on the voltage 

6 issue, or I wanted to clarify. Our comment in 

7 the last round was that the overwhelming 

8 majority of line voltage is 120, and these 

9 lamps are going to be used almost exclusively 

10 at 120 volts, so it seemed irrelevant to have 

11 a separate rating. And our comment was that 

12 all lamps should just test at 120. So, a 

13 minute ago when I said we could eliminate the 

14 distinction and just have a product class that 

15 applies to lamps regardless of voltage, that 

16 was based on the assumption that all lamps 

17 would be required to test at 120. If you 

18 still do allow a rated lamp to test at 130, 

19 then you would need that separate product 

20 class and those standard levels to -- that 

21 were enacted last time to continue, or else it 

22 would become a big loophole, or it would be 
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1 backsliding, it would be a big section of 

2 products that were no longer covered. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Keith? 

4 MR. COOKE: Just to comment on that. 

5 We need to recognize there are parts of this 

6 country that do operate at 130 volts. And we 

7 expressed that concern before, and it still 

8 exists, that by operating these lamps at the 

9 higher voltages that are not designed for that 

10 does cause premature failure, and excessive 

11 light output in some cases. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

13 MS. HUSAIN: So, now we'll move on 

14 to -- 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We have one 

16 more comment. Susan? 

17 MS. ANDERSON: There's also been a 

18 utility that's been removed. The 130 volt 

19 lamps, the majority of them were actually used 

20 by people with 120 volt operation but they 

21 wanted longer lamp life. And by removing the 

22 130 volt lamps as the 2009 rulemaking has 
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1 done, those folks no longer have that option. 

2 Yet, when a 130 volt lamp is operated 120, it 

3 actually operates at a reduced wattage, and 

4 reduced light output so there was energy 

5 savings. And now -- and it was good because 

6 you got the longer lamp life, so you have less 

7 waste. You go to sustainability, but that 

8 utility has totally been eliminated. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve 

10 Rosenstock. 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: As a follow-up --

12 Steve Rosenstock, EEI. When you do that 130 

13 volt lamp at 120, that extends the life by a 

14 factor of three almost, doesn't it, according 

15 to some of the equations? 

16 MS. ANDERSON: Standard incandescent 

17 it's 2.7, with halogen it's approximately 

18 twice. 

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thanks. 

20 MS. CURRY: Ku'uipo Curry. Just one 

21 question about low voltage lamps. I mean, I 

22 know that -- I'm not sure if that's within the 
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1 scope of this but -- 

2 MS. ANDERSON: It's not. 

3 MS. CURRY: It's not, okay. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks. 

5 Mike? 

6 MR. McGARAGHAN: Low voltage lamps 

7 are not -- 

8 MS. ANDERSON: It is -- 

9 MR. McGARAGHAN: With integrally 

10 ballasted low voltage lamp would be covered by 

11 this rulemaking, just to clarify. Is that 

12 what you were -- 

13 MS. ANDERSON: It is -- 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan, go 

15 ahead, clarify. 

16 MS. ANDERSON: Well, I mean, if they 

17 operate at line voltage they're covered. If 

18 you're talking 12 volt, low voltage halogen, 

19 that's not covered by this rulemaking. 

20 MS. GUPTA: Yes, that's correct. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mimi Gupta. 

22 MS. GUPTA: The lamp needs to 
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1 operate between 115 and 130, but it can step 

2 down the voltage to like run the filament at a 

3 lower voltage, and then it would still be 

4 covered. But the input into the lamp has be 

5 between -- in that voltage range. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Line powered 

7 as the input. 

8 MS. GUPTA: Yes. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, okay. 

10 Okay, now we're going to move on. 

11 MS. HUSAIN: All right. Now, we'll 

12 be moving on to the IRL technology options. 

13 DOE is planning to examine the technology 

14 options shown on this slide. Some 

15 technologies to note here are tungsten halogen 

16 capsules, improved reflector coatings, 

17 infrared coatings, and more efficacious 

18 filament alloys. 

19 In the 2009 Lamps Rule, DOE 

20 screened out technologies colored in red in 

21 this table. DOE is also planning to screen 

22 out the same technologies in this rulemaking. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, the red 

2 ones, that's DOE's proposal to screen them 

3 out. 

4 MS. HUSAIN: Yes. So, at this time 

5 DOE would like to invite comments on the GSFL 

6 and IRL technology options, general comments 

7 including any omissions and revisions. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No comments 

9 on technology options? Okay. 

10 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. So, the next part 

11 is the engineering analysis, but -- 

12 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Microphone. 

13 MS. HUSAIN: Sorry. The next part 

14 is the engineering analysis that was scheduled 

15 for after the lunch break, but I can start 

16 going into it. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: How many 

18 slides do you have in this segment? Let's go 

19 to lunch. Okay. Several people have convinced 

20 me. 

21 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. 

22
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It's 11:30, 

2 and we'll beat the lunch crowd if we do it 

3 now. Does everybody know where they're going 

4 here in the Forrestal Building? I think so. 

5 Okay, just don't get lost and don't leave the 

6 building. You might need an ID to get back in 

7 from the cafeteria. The big cafeteria, you 

8 walk down and go about 100 yards that way. 

9 You've got to have your pink badge, and this 

10 room will be locked, or there will be someone 

11 in here so you can leave your stuff. 

12 We've really covered a lot of 

13 ground. We're making good progress here. 

14 We're ahead of schedule, which is great. And 

15 we'll come back at 12:30. Okay? 

16 (Whereupon, the proceedings went 

17 off the record at 11:33 a.m., and went back on 

18 the record at 12:40 p.m.) 

19 

20 

21 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N 

22 12:40 p.m. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: On the 

2 record. Okay. So, welcome back. I think 

3 we're just simply going to proceed with the 

4 engineering analysis. 

5 MS. HUSAIN: Sure. Sorry. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It froze 

7 like that yesterday. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Oh, did it? 

9 (Off the record comments.) 

10 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. There we go. 

11 All right. That's fine. No, it's okay. I'll 

12 just do it from here. Thank you. 

13 All right. So now we will be 

14 moving on to the engineering analysis. The 

15 engineering analysis and the product price 

16 determination together are used to determine 

17 the relationship between efficacy and end-user 

18 price. The results of these analyses are also 

19 used downstream for the life cycle cost or 

20 LCC, the manufacturing impact analysis and the 

21 national impact analysis. 

22 This slide shows step-by-step the 
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1 general methodology DOE will be using for the 

2 engineering analysis. The first step is to 

3 choose representative product classes. 

4 Within these representative product 

5 classes, DOE identifies baseline models. 

6 These are lamps DOE believes to be the most 

7 common, least efficacious lamps in their 

8 representative product class. 

9 Then DOE will select the more 

10 efficacious lamp ballast system based on 

11 design options identified in the market and 

12 technology assessments. DOE will develop 

13 efficacy levels that range from the baseline 

14 to maximum technologically feasible 

15 efficacies. 

16 Finally, DOE plans to scale these 

17 results to the nonrepresentative product 

18 classes. These are classes that are not 

19 analyzed. So I will now go over in more 

20 detail each of these steps. 

21 As mentioned, DOE will not analyze 

22 every product class. Instead it will choose 
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1 representative product classes. And these are 

2 typically chosen based on the highest shipment 

3 volume. 

4 For GSFLs, DOE plans to consider as 

5 representative lamps listed in this table, all 

6 with a correlated color temperature less than 

7 or equal to 4500 Kelvin. These are the same 

8 representative product classes chosen in the 

9 2009 Lamps Rule in which DOE generally 

10 analyzed lamps with 4100 Kelvin CCT as these 

11 were found to be the most common. 

12 This table also shows the baseline 

13 lamps DOE is considering. A baseline lamp as 

14 I mentioned is what DOE believes to be the 

15 most common, least efficacious lamp within 

16 each representative product class. 

17 The lamps -- 

18 (Off the record comment.) 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Go 

20 ahead, Susan. 

21 MS. ANDERSON: Yes. We have a 

22 question. Why are there two eight foot RDC HO 
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1 categories? It's not even a very large lamp 

2 family when you're NTAs. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's 

4 capture this on the record. Tina, do you wish 

5 to comment on this? 

6 DR. KAARSBERG: No. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No. 

8 Aisha, can you answer that comment? 

9 Question? 

10 MS. HUSAIN: Yes. I'm not quite 

11 sure. That might have been a mistake. 

12 MS. GUPTA: Yes. I think that's a 

13 typo or a mistake. The intent is to only have 

14 one representative lamp. 

15 MS. ANDERSON: So then actually -- 

16 MR. STEPHENS: I think the standard 

17 is 92 for that category. So the 91.9 probably 

18 wouldn't be the one. 

19 MS. GUPTA: Yes. We can check on 

20 that to verify. And we'll get back the -- 

21 MS. HUSAIN: We'll correct it in 

22 the presentation. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Pekka, do 

2 you have a question? 

3 DR. HAKKARAINEN: No, it was the 

4 same question. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Same 

6 question. Okay. 

7 MS. HUSAIN: We can look into that 

8 and we'll correct it on the presentation and 

9 post it. 

10 So the lamps with the 

11 characteristics shown on this slide met the 

12 standards adopted in the 2009 Lamps Rule. 

13 Compliance with these standards are required 

14 in 2012. Therefore, DOE believes these will 

15 be the least efficacious and is planning to 

16 consider them as baselines. 

17 Also based on the assumption that 

18 most commercially available T12 lamps will not 

19 be able to meet the 2012 standards, DOE is 

20 currently not analyzing T12 lamps as baselines 

21 in this rulemaking and requests comments on 

22 whether this is appropriate. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I want to 

2 make sure your slides are matching up with our 

3 slides because I think there is a slight 

4 numbering disconnect. 

5 MS. HUSAIN: This should be the 

6 representative product classes and baselines, 

7 GSFLs. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 

9 (Off the record comment.) 

10 Fifty-five on our sheets, but 60 on 

11 yours. So I just -- I think we're in sync. I 

12 think we're okay. 

13 MS. HUSAIN: Yes. I think there 

14 might be backup slides that are mixed in 

15 there. That's why. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

17 Keith. 

18 MR. COOKE: Yes. Keith Cooke, 

19 Phillips. I think that what's missing on this 

20 slide is the two foot U-shaped. If I look at 

21 slide 45 on our ours, it showed what was the 

22 classes being considered and that's the lamp 
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1 that's missing. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 

3 Thank you. 

4 Susan. 

5 MS. ANDERSON: Well, actually in 

6 the framework document, there's a scaling 

7 factor for that. 

8 MS. GUPTA: Right. 

9 MS. ANDERSON: And I think it was 

10 6.5 percent or 6.6 percent, something like 

11 that. 

12 MS. GUPTA: Yes. 

13 MS. ANDERSON: So that's probably 

14 why it's -- 

15 MS. GUPTA: Yes. So this is Mimi 

16 Gupta. The doubling of the eight foot high is 

17 definitely not intentional and was a mistake. 

18 But the absence of a two-foot U-shaped was not 

19 a mistake. 

20 Similar to the last rulemaking, DOE 

21 is planning or proposing to scale the standard 

22 for that product class and not analyze it 
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1 directly. But that's something that DOE is 

2 open to comment on if the stakeholders feel 

3 like the scaling approach is not warranted. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keith. 

5 MR. COOKE: Exactly right. I'm 

6 very concerned with scaling a U-shape because 

7 these are all linears that you'll do the 

8 actual analysis on. And the efficiency of a 

9 linear is inherently better than it is for any 

10 shaped lamp because of trying to get the arc 

11 started around the shapes and all those kinds 

12 of things does take away from its efficiency. 

13 MS. GUPTA: This is Mimi Gupta. So 

14 in the previous rule we had applied a six to 

15 seven percent -- I can't remember what the 

16 reduction was to the four-foot medium bipin 

17 product class to develop the two-foot U18 shaped. So are you saying that you feel like 

19 that is not something that you would suggest 

20 again. 

21 MR. COOKE: That may work. 

22 MS. GUPTA: Okay. 
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1 MR. COOKE: That may be acceptable. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Pekka. 

3 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Pekka 

4 Hakkarainen. I have another question then. 

5 When I'm looking at the baseline values for 

6 the eight-foot HO at 92 lumens per watt that 

7 matches 2009 Rule and then when I'm looking at 

8 the four-foot T8 the baseline is shown as 92.3 

9 which is not the same as the 2009 Rule. It's 

10 significantly higher than that. 

11 What's the rationale for these 

12 differences? 

13 MS. GUPTA: Yes. So this is Mimi 

14 Gupta. This brings up a kind of complex issue 

15 that occurred in the last rulemaking where DOE 

16 had done its engineering analysis based on 

17 commercially-available products and the 

18 Catalog performance of those products. But 

19 then when going to set the efficiency levels, 

20 it noted that the reported efficacy for those 

21 products, that manufacturers were submitting 

22 to DOE were sometimes different than maybe the 
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1 long-term average efficacies in Catalogs. So 

2 DOE set standards based on the reported value. 

3 So, for example, for this four-foot 

4 medium bipin lamp at 92.3 lumens per watt 

5 rated efficacy, when DOE matched that lamp to 

6 what was being reported as an efficacy in its 

7 compliance reports it had a lumens per watt of 

8 whatever the standard was set at, 89. So 

9 that's where the discrepancy comes from. 

10 And I guess this is something that 

11 we're interested in understanding is if you 

12 have a lamp right now that you're marketing 

13 with an initial light output of 3000 lumens 

14 per watt is that going to be the minimally 

15 compliant lamp. Or is there going to be a 

16 2900 lumen per watt lamp that's -- 

17 (Off the record comment.) 

18 I mean initial lumens. 

19 (Off the record comment.) 

20 Right. Because DOE tries to base 

21 its analysis on commercially-available 

22 products wherever possible. We're trying to 
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1 understand based on the products that you're 

2 selling right now what is going to be the 

3 minimally-compliant lamp that you sell in July 

4 of 2012. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan, 

6 please. 

7 MS. ANDERSON: There's always a 

8 tolerance for every -- We all have to have 

9 that because there is variation in components 

10 and manufacturing. But I guess my question is 

11 why wouldn't the baseline be at least what the 

12 standard was last time. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead, 

14 Charlie. 

15 MR. STEPHENS: Let me ask a 

16 question here that might help get at this from 

17 a different angle. I don't know what rated 

18 efficacy means. I know what the certified 

19 number means when a manufacturer certifies 

20 that number to DOE. Are you suggesting, Mimi, 

21 that the certified efficacy of that lamp is 89 

22 and whatever rated efficacy is is the Catalog 
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1 efficacy? Is that what we're seeing here? 

2 MS. GUPTA: Yes. So the rated 

3 efficacy here represents the initial light 

4 output divided by the rated wattage of the 

5 lamp. So it would be 3000 lumens divided by 

6 32.5 watts. 

7 MR. COOKE: That's not going to be 

8 92.3. 

9 MS. GUPTA: The question is your 

10 initial light output, is that a measured or 

11 declared value? Sorry. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It's close 

13 to it I think. 

14 MS. CURRY: Sorry. Ku'uipo Curry. 

15 Your initial light output is declared values. 

16 MS. GUPTA: Yes, Catalog. 

17 MS. CURRY: And your nominal watts 

18 -- They're both declared numbers. 

19 MS. GUPTA: It's rated. We use the 

20 rated watts. 

21 MS. ANDERSON: We use the ANSI. 

22 MS. GUPTA: The ANSI rated wattage. 
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1 MS. ANDERSON: So for a four-foot 

2 T8 that would be 32.5. (Inaudible) as opposed 

3 to 32. 

4 MS. GUPTA: Right. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: But then 

6 going to Susan's question or Susan's comment 

7 about there's always a range there, what would 

8 DOE wish to have? The lower end of the range 

9 or the middle of the range or the top end of 

10 the range? What are you trying to get at? 

11 MS. GUPTA: Well, I'm not making 

12 any statements about where within the range 

13 DOE thinks it should be. But I'm just saying 

14 what was done previously was that when 

15 comparing these rated efficacy values to what 

16 this lamp is reported as for compliance there 

17 was a difference. 

18 And maybe manufacturers can comment 

19 more to why there is that difference. Is it 

20 because of just tolerances? Is it because 

21 when you report efficacy for compliance 

22 purposes there's a specific equation that you 
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1 use? 

2 There was a difference. And so 

3 because DOE's analysis was based on 

4 commercially-available products it tried to 

5 accurately set a standard that maintained the 

6 commercially-available products that the 

7 standard intended to if that makes sense. 

8 MS. ANDERSON: Our reporting though 

9 was based on a continuously-rolling 12 month 

10 average. 

11 MS. GUPTA: Right. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

13 MR. STEPHENS: This is Charlie 

14 Stephens. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

16 Susan, for that. 

17 Charlie. 

18 MR. STEPHENS: You know as somebody 

19 who has to follow this as the rulemaking goes 

20 along I guess I'm okay with whatever the 

21 numbers are up there as long as I understand 

22 what they represent. I suppose you could also 
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1 take the certified values, lumens, watts and 

2 efficacy, all three of which are likely to be 

3 different coming out of testing and 

4 certification. 

5 But if what you're featuring here 

6 is what DOE thinks is a common lamp that 

7 represents a large share of the market and 

8 you're buying them off to analyze and you're 

9 looking at prices in catalogs and trying to 

10 identify what lamp in the catalog has what 

11 price associated with it or online or wherever 

12 you're getting your data, then I suspect 

13 that's the data you're going to see for that 

14 lamp in a catalog or online regardless of what 

15 the certified numbers are because it seems 

16 you're testing. And the certification numbers 

17 can be different. But it's the same lamp as I 

18 understand what you're saying. 

19 MS. GUPTA: That is correct. 

20 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. I'm okay with 

21 that. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks, 
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1 Mimi. 

2 Steve Rosenstock. 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

4 EEI. You know the Rule says that minimum 

5 average lamp efficacy in terms of the standard 

6 which is 89 now. And so just in terms of just 

7 thinking down the road in terms of the 

8 analysis, basically what you're planning to do 

9 is again you're going to use that 92.3 as the 

10 I'll say -- There's the baseline. The 

11 standard says 89. But what you're going to 

12 say is for your analysis of potentially any 

13 new standard you're going to use a 92.3 as a 

14 baseline for doing any sort of energy 

15 analysis, cost analysis, etc. Is that the 

16 plan? 

17 MS. GUPTA: Yes. Really what 

18 matters in terms of the energy analysis is the 

19 rated wattage of the lamp and to some extent 

20 the lumen output of the lamp. And so those -- 

21 in the previous rulemaking, we used the values 

22 in catalogs. And that is what we propose to 
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1 do for this rulemaking also. 

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Initial lumens or 

3 mean lumens. 

4 MS. GUPTA: No, you're right. Mean 

5 lumens. 

6 MS. ANDERSON: You always used 

7 initial. 

8 MS. GUPTA: In terms of -- We've 

9 used initial in terms of what? 

10 MS. ANDERSON: The standards have 

11 always been initial. 

12 MS. GUPTA: Right. The standards 

13 are in terms of initial efficacy. But in 

14 terms of determining what the energy use is 

15 going to be of the system and in terms of what 

16 the higher efficiency replacements are going 

17 to be, we use mean lumens to compare different 

18 lamps. 

19 So, for example, before in the last 

20 rulemaking, we said a T12 system with a 

21 certain mean lumens is a replacement for a T8 

22 system with a similar mean lumens. So in that 
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1 sense we were comparing -- we were using mean 

2 lumens. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: The average 

4 lumens. 

5 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Yes, I'm 

6 completely lost. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: The average 

8 lumens was there for the purpose of 

9 comparability. 

10 Mimi. 

11 MS. GUPTA: Yes, the mean lumens, 

12 it's different than average, was there for the 

13 purpose of comparing different systems to 

14 ensure that they have similar light output. 

15 Initial lumens is used to determine the 

16 efficacy. 

17 MS. ANDERSON: Okay. You're going 

18 based on the fact that when you actually 

19 design the lighting system you use mean 

20 lumens, not initial lumens. 

21 MS. GUPTA: Yes. 

22 MS. ANDERSON: Okay. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

2 Mike. 

3 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan. 

4 I would just ask that as you go through the 

5 rulemaking maybe provide both, rated efficacy 

6 and reported efficacy. Last time I think you 

7 got datasets from various manufacturers with 

8 their own test data. And I think that that 

9 was confidential. So that's a tied in comment 

10 here is I think it's very important for DOE to 

11 get data from manufacturers that is the 

12 reported data. 

13 Rated efficacy is much less 

14 important without a real standard for how it's 

15 derived or without certification behind it. 

16 Reported is much more important, but a lot of 

17 stakeholders couldn't see it last time. So we 

18 would encourage you to use that data, make it 

19 public, redact it as necessary so that we can 

20 all see it and then any time you're going to 

21 use one or the other throughout the whole 

22 rulemaking make it really clear what you're 
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1 using and define both. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I see some 

3 heads nodding around the table. Charlie. 

4 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, let me just 

5 emphasize that we really -- It would help us 

6 all to have definitions for this stuff even if 

7 it's not a term of art in the standards. It 

8 really would help to know what you mean by 

9 "rated efficiency." And is that different 

10 than "catalog efficiency"? You know, when 

11 you're using these terms it would really help 

12 to have them defined well. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank 

14 you. 

15 So then I thought we shed some 

16 light on that one. Let's move on. 

17 MS. HUSAIN: Sorry. I don't know 

18 what I do here, but this keeps freezing. 

19 (Off the record discussion.) 

20 Okay. All right. For IRLs, DOE is 

21 considering lamps with standard spectrum 

22 voltage ratings less than 125 volts and 
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1 diameters greater than 2.5 inches as 

2 representatives. As for the GSFLs, DOE is 

3 planning to consider as baselines lamps with 

4 characteristics which met the standards 

5 adopted in the 2009 Lamps Rule. 

6 In determining IRL standards in the 

7 2009 Lamps Rule, DOE projected that 

8 manufacturers would sell reduced wattage lamps 

9 with light outputs similar to higher wattage 

10 lamps. So, for a 50 watt, DOE projected 

11 manufacturers would sell a 40 watt, for a 75 a 

12 55 watt and for a 90 watt a 66 watt. 

13 We are interested to know if the 

14 resulting wattages and lifetimes shown in this 

15 table are representative of the products 

16 expected to be sold on the market in 2012. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve 

18 Rosenstock. 

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

20 EEI. In terms of PAR 38s again I'm just 

21 talking and thinking from my hardware store 

22 experience. I don't know if I've ever seen a 
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1 66 watt PAR 38 on the shelf. Maybe I was 

2 looking in the wrong place, but I have never 

3 seen that out there. I'm sure it exists 

4 because you do incandescent NE wattage, but 

5 I've never seen it. So I don't know how 

6 representative that is. 

7 MR. COOKE: NEMA also agrees with 

8 Steve. And we disagree with using model lamp 

9 designs that are not commercially available as 

10 baseline lamp characteristics. We believe it 

11 should be based on real world. And we're not 

12 producing these lamps yet. So we don't know 

13 how you can establish such a baseline. 

14 MS. GUPTA: This is Mimi Gupta. I 

15 think this is exactly what this slide is 

16 looking for information on. What wattages do 

17 you expect to be the most common wattages in 

18 2012? 

19 These wattages, yes. There is no 

20 66 watt lamp that is out there. But that was 

21 the equal lumen replacement that we had 

22 calculated for the 90 watt lamp that met the 
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1 standard. So if -- Are manufacturers going to 

2 continue to sell a 90 watt lamp in 2012 or are 

3 they going to sell a 65 watt lamp to replace 

4 that 90 watt lamp? 

5 MR. COOKE: Well, even then, we 

6 still don't know what the lumen output will be 

7 until we actually start producing them. 

8 That's the normal process. 

9 MS. ANDERSON: We aren't making 

10 these products yet. 

11 MR. COOKE: We're under 

12 development. 

13 MS. GUPTA: Okay. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan. 

15 MS. ANDERSON: That was part of the 

16 point we tried to make earlier. We aren't 

17 that far along yet. We're still installing 

18 equipment and testing equipment and we haven't 

19 made commercially viable production lines yet. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

21 MS. ANDERSON: This is really 

22 jumping the gun. 
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1 MR. COOKE: It's problematic. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

3 Mike. 

4 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan, 

5 California Utilities. I had a comment on the 

6 lifetime assumptions for the baseline here. 

7 Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but my 

8 understanding is that lamp lumens and lifetime 

9 fight against each other in an incandescent 

10 lamp. 

11 And moving to an HIR source you can 

12 either greatly improve the light output or the 

13 lifetime or sort of somewhere in the middle. 

14 You can improve both of them a little bit. So 

15 I think most HIR products have improved 

16 efficacy and improved lifetime. But there is 

17 no reason to think that the new baseline 

18 should be a 4000 hour lamp in my mind if 

19 current products out there typically have a 

20 1500 to 2000 hour lifetime. 

21 It seems to me that should still be 

22 the baseline assumption so that if 
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1 manufacturers want to make a 4000 hour lamp 

2 then they would market that as a long life 

3 lamp. It would be a different kind of 

4 product. Again, that goes back to the point 

5 where they're in the middle of the product 

6 design and we don't have these products yet 

7 until July of next year necessarily. 

8 But just a suggestion to DOE to 

9 consider that maintaining the lamp life to be 

10 consistent with current lamp life baselines. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

12 MR. McGARAGHAN: Also, I think I 

13 missed my chance a few slides ago on the 

14 fluorescent baseline. DOE asked for comment 

15 on whether it should consider minimally16 compliant T8s the baseline. 

17 So now all the manufacturers are 

18 making high CRI T12 lamps with very poor 

19 efficacies relative to T8s. My suggestion is 

20 that would be the baseline product for that 

21 especially for a four foot medium bipin 

22 product class. 
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sorry. What lamp 

2 was that? Steven Rosenstock, EEI. 

3 MR. McGARAGHAN: There are now T12 

4 lamps with high CRI and the definition of GSFL 

5 is any fluorescent lamp with a CRI of less 

6 than 87. So these lamps are exempt from 

7 standards or they're not covered by standards. 

8 So these T12 lamps would continue to be 

9 manufactured throughout next year as I 

10 understand it. And they would still be 

11 competing with the more efficient T8s. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan, go 

13 ahead. 

14 MS. ANDERSON: Those T12 lamps like 

15 Cool White Deluxe, Daylight Deluxe, they've 

16 been around for decades. They're not new 

17 products. And the exemption is there for the 

18 applications where color evaluation is 

19 critical. And it's not a high volume 

20 application. 

21 MR. McGARAGHAN: Thank you for 

22 pointing that out. I'm actually referring to 
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1 an Osram piece of literature I saw that 

2 suggested there's a new T12 lamp that's due 

3 out 2011 and I wasn't sure if it was already 

4 out or coming out. Are you familiar with -- 

5 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, I know. It's -

6 - That product has never been made. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Never been 

8 made? 

9 MS. ANDERSON: Never been made. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

11 MR. McGARAGHAN: Okay. So anyways 

12 there was this suggestion that new products 

13 were coming online. Regardless of whether or 

14 not that happens, there are existing T12 

15 products that will continue to be made and 

16 will continue to be replacements through next 

17 year. And they're not covered by standards. 

18 And the suggestion is that those should be the 

19 baseline product for us. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I saw Tim 

21 first. Tim Ballo. 

22 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo. I think the 
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1 problem with that though is if they're not 

2 covered they don't go away. And so you can 

3 use them as the baseline, but they're still 

4 there. The standards won't get rid of them. 

5 So how do you measure the impact of standards 

6 then? 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Joanna. 

8 MS. MAUER: I think maybe instead 

9 of -- and I don't know -- if manufacturers are 

10 planning to produce T12 products that are 

11 covered by the standards that would be able to 

12 meet the 2012 standards. If we expect them to 

13 make up some significant portion of the 

14 market, then it seems to make sense to 

15 consider those in the baseline. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve 

17 Rosenstock. 

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

19 EEI. If you look at the 2009 final rule there 

20 are no T12s. As of next July, T12s don't meet 

21 the new standards. And all the -- I'll say 

22 the general service T12s that have been in 
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1 existence are stopped as of July of 2012. 

2 I'm just saying in terms of the 

3 existing product that's being analyzed in the 

4 last rule the existing T12s go away as of next 

5 July. There's no baseline for them anymore. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan. 

7 MS. ANDERSON: There are T12 

8 products in the marketplace that meet the 

9 standards that go into effect next July 14th. 

10 MR. COOKE: Correct. 

11 MR. McGARAGHAN: At what CRI, 

12 Susan? 

13 MS. ANDERSON: Regular CRIs. 

14 MR. McGARAGHAN: Okay. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So 

16 then that was Mike and now to Charlie Stevens. 

17 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. I think we'll 

18 probably weigh in on this in a little more 

19 detail. But I don't think that you can do a 

20 baseline for this with only T8s. I think 

21 you're going to have to look at T12s. 

22 And I think just as the industry 
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1 was saying here just a minute ago that the 

2 incandescent IRL products that are in theory 

3 going to meet the standard aren't available to 

4 evaluate just now. I think these T12 products 

5 we're talking about may not entirely be 

6 available right now either. A couple of them 

7 are. But there will be more I'm sure than 

8 there are at this minute. 

9 (Off the record comment.) 

10 Right, I understand. But they 

11 aren't priced -- The several years ago price 

12 is not the price that you're going to get for 

13 them starting now I think. Right? 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan, go 

15 ahead. 

16 MS. ANDERSON: They're not my 

17 products. They're Philip's products. 

18 MR. STEPHENS: Right. 

19 MS. ANDERSON: But they've been in 

20 the marketplace for several years. And they 

21 use the rare earth phosphor technology. So 

22 they're being impacted by this rare earth 
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1 price increase just like T8s and T5s and 

2 compact fluorescents. 

3 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. I spent all 

4 week last week on the phone with procurement 

5 officials about that. So I understand that. 

6 But what I'm saying is that there's a reason 

7 why they should be in the baseline. Are you 

8 agreeing with me that they should be in the 

9 baseline? 

10 MR. COOKE: We agree. 

11 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Thank you. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks, 

13 Keith. Thanks, Susan. Okay. So any other 

14 things to cover here because I'm feeling like 

15 we're starting to -- We're ready to move on. 

16 Yes, Tina. 

17 TINA KAARSBERG: Would now be a 

18 good time for me to say something a little 

19 tiny bit about rare earth since we were just 

20 talking about it. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

22 DR. KAARSBERG: Okay. While I was 
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1 away at lunch and looking at my email, I 

2 received an email that said that the prices 

3 for some of the rare earths had declined from 

4 June to October from $135 a kilogram to $90 a 

5 kilogram. And you know this is just -- Well, 

6 it's based on some market or something like 

7 that. 

8 MS. KOHL: Is it the Wall Street 

9 Journal article? 

10 DR. KAARSBERG: Oh yeah. The Wall 

11 Street Journal. Yeah, it was just the Wall 

12 Street Journal. But I guess I'm saying it's -

13 - As you can tell, we're starting to follow 

14 this issue and we do want to engage with you 

15 on this. 

16 I don't know what exactly can be 

17 done about it. But it is pretty amazing what 

18 the prices do and how quickly they go up and 

19 also how quickly they go down. And I just 

20 wanted to mention that we are beginning to 

21 track that. Thanks. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 
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1 Charlie Stephens. 

2 MR. STEPHENS: Tina, did they say 

3 which ones? I mean that's pretty specific. 

4 DR. KAARSBERG: I apologize. This 

5 particular one was -- Strangely a lot of them 

6 went from $135-ish range to $92. But the 

7 particular one I quoted was lanthanum which I 

8 thought was used in lighting in some place. 

9 It isn't? No, not really. 

10 MR. STEPHENS: It's not one of the 

11 three that are of most interest here. 

12 DR. KAARSBERG: So Yttrium. 

13 MR. STEPHENS: Terbium, Europium 

14 and Yttrium. 

15 DR. KAARSBERG: And what was the 

16 other one? 

17 MR. STEPHENS: Europium and 

18 Yttrium. 

19 DR. KAARSBERG: Yttrium. And there 

20 is -- Okay. 

21 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg. 

22 Do you need me to clarify? I had this 
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1 mistake, too, and was corrected. So there is 

2 a Ytterbium. It has few, if any, commercial 

3 value. It is -- The Ytterbium is not one 

4 we're concerned about. It is terbium, 

5 Yttrium, Y-T-T-R-I-U-M, and Europium. Those 

6 are the three that matter the most to us and 

7 to the permanent magnet makers by the way who 

8 compete with us for this product. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan. 

10 MS. ANDERSON: I just want to say 

11 that I had seen that Wall Street Journal 

12 article, too. So I specifically followed up 

13 with the CEO of the business unit that makes 

14 fluorescent lamps and HID lamps by the way. 

15 And he said that that seemed to be a short 

16 term issue. But when you look at mid-range 

17 and long-term projections the projections are 

18 for the prices to continue to rise and the 

19 supply to go down. Based on what we 

20 understand China's doing with export -- 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's 

22 internally in your company. 
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1 MS. ANDERSON: Yes. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank 

3 you. 

4 Okay. Thanks for that update. And 

5 I'm glad we clarified that. Let's proceed. 

6 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. So now we'll 

7 move to identifying higher efficacy 

8 replacements. DOE will select more 

9 efficacious lamps for each baseline lamp by 

10 considering technologies not eliminated in a 

11 screening analysis. When considering more 

12 efficacious designs, DOE plans to consider 

13 lamps that emit lumens greater than or equal 

14 to the lumen output of the baseline lamp or 

15 below that lamp by no more than 10 percent and 

16 that result in energy savings. As mentioned, 

17 DOE plans to primarily use a database of 

18 commercially-available lamps to develop the 

19 model lamps. 

20 After identifying the more 

21 efficacious substitutes for each baseline lamp 

22 or a lamp and ballast system, DOE develops 
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1 efficacy levels or ELs based on three factors, 

2 the design options associated with a specific 

3 lamp, the ability of the lamps across wattages 

4 to comply with the EL of a given product class 

5 and the maximum technologically feasible 

6 efficacy level or max tech. 

7 Similar to the 2009 Lamps Rule, DOE 

8 is not considering efficacy levels that would 

9 require the use of reduced wattage GSFLs due 

10 to potentially limited utility of these lamps. 

11 For example, in the 2009 Lamps Rule, DOE did 

12 not consider a four-foot medium bipin level 

13 that could only be met by a 28 watt. And all 

14 levels were set so they could be at least met 

15 by one 32 watt lamp. 

16 I also wanted to note here that DOE 

17 plans to use certification reports as 

18 mentioned to determine the reported efficacies 

19 of the lamps to develop continuous equations 

20 for efficacy levels. 

21 In the 2009 Lamps Rule, DOE 

22 identified five efficacy levels for both GSFLs 
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1 and IRLs and adopted the second highest 

2 efficacy level. Therefore, DOE is generally 

3 considering establishing the highest efficacy 

4 level identified in the 2009 Lamps Rule as EL1 

5 for this rulemaking. 

6 Based on this methodology for 

7 almost all lamp types EL1 will be represented 

8 by the max tech levels that are in the 2009 

9 Lamps Rule. These levels for GSFLs are shown 

10 in this table. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve 

12 Rosenstock. 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

14 EEI. And it's also assumed for the 

15 incandescents as you'll see in the next slide. 

16 It looks like your -- Again, you only have one 

17 option which is a max tech option based on 

18 this slide and based on -- And again, I really 

19 appreciate the slide because it was not shown 

20 this way in the framework document. 

21 This is really -- It's a very, very 

22 usable clarification and I wish it would have 
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1 shown up in the framework document for those 

2 who can't be at this meeting because the issue 

3 as with other rulemakings that I've been to 

4 and I've been going to these for many years is 

5 usually there's at least three, four or five 

6 options in terms of efficiency levels. 

7 You look at this document. You're 

8 looking at one option and it's max tech only. 

9 No other options. No other choices. No other 

10 possibilities for the manufacturers or the 

11 consumers. 

12 And again obviously like for 

13 example for the eight foot SP slimline, the 

14 baseline is 97 and you're looking at 98 lumens 

15 per watt. I mean there is very little wiggle 

16 room there. And my concern is that only 

17 having a max tech choice, is that really 

18 beneficial to consumers whether it's 

19 residential or commercial? I'm not sure. 

20 I know there are other technologies 

21 out there that maybe are above this. That's 

22 great. But just having one option and only 
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1 have a max tech option I think that's just to 

2 me is just unprecedented. I've never seen it. 

3 Thank you. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

5 Any additional comments on this 

6 table? 

7 MS. GUPTA: This is Mimi. I just 

8 wanted to note this table and the table on the 

9 next page are in the framework document as 

10 Tables 6.5 and 6.6. 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

12 EEI. I understand that, but in the framework 

13 document it doesn't show any language that 

14 says that these are max tech. It just has 

15 efficacy level, but it doesn't say anything 

16 about the fact that they're actually really 

17 max tech option based on the previous 

18 rulemaking at all. 

19 MS. GUPTA: I see. Okay. 

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I mean it's one 

21 thing to show efficiency level. But then it's 

22 really max tech. So people just looking at it 
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1 say, "Oh, here's one option that they might be 

2 looking at" versus "This is the max tech that 

3 might be out there based on a previous 

4 analysis." There's a big difference. 

5 MS. GUPTA: It does say that it's 

6 max tech in the paragraph before it. 

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sorry. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes. 

9 Joanna. 

10 MS. MAUER: Just a quick 

11 clarification question. So these lumen per 

12 watt values are not -- Is it fair to say 

13 they're not directly comparable to the lumen 

14 per watt, the rated efficacy values, that are 

15 in the table of baseline efficacy values? 

16 Because these would -- This would be what the 

17 standard would be as opposed to what the rated 

18 value might be. 

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So these are 

20 certified values. 

21 MS. MAUER: Thank you. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mimi say it 
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1 again. 

2 MS. GUPTA: That's correct. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 I didn't want that to be lost. 

5 Mike. 

6 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan, 

7 California IEs. I have a comment about these 

8 levels, EL1, and also DOE's approach to 

9 establishing what it's calling max tech. This 

10 is related to the comment I made earlier about 

11 the four criteria for screening. 

12 A couple of places in the framework 

13 document, DOE explains which technologies it's 

14 going forward with and which it's screening in 

15 order to determine what the maximum potential 

16 efficiency is. And then there are a couple of 

17 places sort of later in the document it says 

18 and so DOE then determined the commercially19 available product was max tech. 

20 And it seems to me like there's a 

21 big disconnect especially early on in this 

22 rulemaking. We're in the framework stage 
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1 right now and DOE it looks like is just 

2 proposing to use what they determined was max 

3 tech last time two years ago. 

4 It's my understanding that early in 

5 the rulemaking is when DOE is supposed to 

6 identify what is really the maximum 

7 technologically feasible level and work down 

8 from there. And I know, for example, I'll 

9 throw out the extra high lumen products. 

10 Thirty-four hundred lumens is what TCP gets. 

11 And I'm not suggesting that I think 

12 3400 lumens is a great place to end up with a 

13 standard. I don't know that. All I'm saying 

14 is that at this stage in the rulemaking DOE 

15 has to look farther than what was max tech two 

16 years ago or what was commercially available 

17 two years ago. 

18 And I have the same comment for the 

19 next couple slides for IRLs. I think in our 

20 comments in the last rule we identified a lot 

21 of different technology options to go beyond 

22 in terms of prototype products. 
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1 So, yeah, commercially available 

2 and max tech are frequently not the same 

3 thing. This is the time in the rulemaking to 

4 distinguish between those. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 Any additional comment here? 

7 Susan. 

8 MS. ANDERSON: I guess our concern 

9 and we had this in the last rulemaking in 

10 particular with IRL is that you don't base a 

11 rulemaking on one or two samples that have 

12 been made up in a lab. And you've never 

13 proven that you can actually produce them in 

14 real life on a regular production line because 

15 there are differences. 

16 It's just like everybody is all 

17 enamored with all the lumen per watt ratings 

18 that come out with solid state now. And what 

19 you can do on a bench top in a lab is one 

20 thing. But producing in high volume, that's 

21 something else. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 
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1 Are we ready to move on? Okay. 

2 MS. HUSAIN: Before we move on from 

3 this slide, I just wanted to note an exception 

4 which is the four foot T5 mini-bipin high 

5 output lamp. There was only one standard 

6 level proposed and adopted in the 2009 Lamps 

7 Rule for this lamp. There are reduced wattage 

8 T5 high output lamps with higher efficacies 

9 than the levels adopted in the 2009 Lamps 

10 Rule. However, due to the reduced wattage 

11 lamps potential application limitations such 

12 as inability to operate in cold temperatures 

13 we had not factored them into the analysis. 

14 So DOE requests comments on whether 

15 the standard levels should be based on the 

16 reduced wattage lamps and whether these lamps 

17 are at the same utility as full wattage. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan. 

19 MS. ANDERSON: Reduced wattage 

20 lamps never have the same utility as full 

21 wattage lamps. You're always going to have a 

22 cold temperature issue, drafty condition 
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1 issue, with reduced wattage lamps and 

2 fluorescent. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

4 Additional comments there? 

5 (No verbal response.) 

6 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. So this is 

7 similar to the GSFL slide. These are IRLs. 

8 We are also considering establishing EL1 at 

9 the max tech level set in the 2009 Lamps Rule. 

10 The table on this slide shows the power law 

11 equation that represented the max tech level 

12 in the 2009 Lamps Rule and associated efficacy 

13 values determined for specific lamp types 

14 based on the equation. 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock, 

16 EEI. On the last slide, again just kind of 

17 looking back at Slide 57 and Slide 61, it 

18 looks like you're keeping the 40 watt par 30 

19 and then you're reducing the wattage of the 

20 other two lamps. 

21 I guess I'm kind of curious why you 

22 changed the wattage there in terms of some of 
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1 your analytical reasoning. You went from a 55 

2 to a 51.7 watt lamp which I've never seen 

3 anywhere and from a 66 down to a 60 watt par 

4 38 in terms of some of the EL1 levels. 

5 Again, you kept the 40 watt the same. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

7 Susan. 

8 MS. ANDERSON: I can't comment on 

9 the 51.7 or the 60 but this rulemaking covers 

10 40 watts up to 205 watts. 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thanks. 

12 MS. ANDERSON: So 40 watts is the 

13 bottom, the lowest wattage that's covered by 

14 this rulemaking. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Did 

16 you have anything additional? 

17 MS. HUSAIN: No. I can look into 

18 that and get back to you and answer. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: To see how 

20 that corresponds. 

21 MS. HUSAIN: Yes. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 
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1 MS. GUPTA: I mean the 51.7 and the 

2 60 came from the last rulemaking as higher 

3 efficacy replacements that meet this level to 

4 replace the 75 watt and the 90 watt lumen 

5 packages, halogen lumen packages. So 

6 obviously these higher efficacy replacements 

7 will change if DOE changes the baselines that 

8 they're evaluating. If the wattage is like we 

9 discussed before like 66 watt changes, then 

10 the baseline of the 60 watt higher efficacy 

11 replacement would also change. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keith. 

13 MR. COOKE: But again these are 

14 theoretical. 

15 MS. GUPTA: Yes. 

16 MR. COOKE: And really the baseline 

17 should be based on real world actual. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

19 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, I just want to 

20 again ensure terms here. These are certified 

21 values we're looking at here. Right? Because 

22 if I'm not mistaken I have seen a 52 watt 
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1 lamp. I really doubt that I would ever walk 

2 into a hardware store and see a lamp that had 

3 a label on it that said 51.7 watts. But that 

4 very well might be the certified value of what 

5 its actual tested wattage is. Am I correct 

6 or not? 

7 MS. GUPTA: So these are -- 

8 Especially for the model lamps these are not 

9 certified values because there was no data on 

10 which to based the certified values. In the 

11 last rule, DOE looked at whether there was a 

12 difference between certified values and 

13 catalog performance for incandescent reflector 

14 lamps and found that there was a slight 

15 difference and tried to modify its equation to 

16 match that difference in efficacy. 

17 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. I've seen some 

18 of the certified values and they aren't round 

19 numbers in a lot of cases especially when 

20 you're getting really close to meeting the 

21 standard. They're what they tested at, but 

22 you don't put that on the label. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So these -- 

2 Are these certified values? They're not. 

3 (Off the record comments.) 

4 Yes, this is DOE's hypothesis. 

5 Correct? 

6 MS. GUPTA: That's correct. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

8 Pekka. 

9 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Pekka 

10 Hakkarainen. So I'm now quite concerned about 

11 the factor 6.4 that has been chosen here. 

12 It's not based on anything other than these 

13 theoretical considerations. 

14 And we heard earlier today that the 

15 previous rulemaking effectively discontinued 

16 the 130 volt rated lamps because of a high 

17 standard that was set there. And this is 

18 starting to be pretty close to that point. 

19 The other thing to note in this 

20 context is that according to this presentation 

21 these values would be used in scaling for 

22 other lamps that are not examined in the 
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1 rulemaking in this way. So scaling factors 

2 would be used for other lamps. And I know 

3 we're going to talk about that a little bit 

4 later. 

5 But at the time the 2009 Rule was 

6 published at that time I went through the lamp 

7 company catalogs there were no Par 20 lamps, 

8 for example, that met the standard at that 

9 time. So speaking for my friends from the 

10 lamp companies, in 2009 you make them redesign 

11 all of their products in that category. And 

12 now you're going to do it again. 

13 I'm concerned that this leads to a 

14 significant reduction in available products in 

15 reflector lamps. And when you look at the -- 

16 Susan's company publishes what they call a 

17 socket survey at the end of each year. 

18 Last year that survey if I'm 

19 remembering it right showed that in addition 

20 to I think light output and color dimability 

21 of light sources was a significantly important 

22 issue for consumers when they were making 
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1 purchase decisions. And this is potentially 

2 going to lead to a situation where that 

3 utility is significantly sacrificed for the 

4 consumers. 

5 If the replacement, the only 

6 replacement, is a CFL reflector lamp, then you 

7 are going to not just take away the 

8 spotlights. But you are also going to take 

9 away the dimability. 

10 I don't consider any of the 

11 currently available CFL reflector lamps to be 

12 anywhere near adequate. So this is very 

13 concerning. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

15 Mike. 

16 MR. McGARAGHAN: So, again I don't 

17 think it's DOE's job at this stage to weigh 

18 the economic pros and cons of each of these at 

19 this stage. I think DOE's job is to identify 

20 what can be done and it actually looks to me 

21 like these numbers are sliding back. I 

22 thought that the coefficient from 2009 for 
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1 TSL5 was 6.9, wasn't it? 

2 MS. ANDERSON: That was for 

3 (Inaudible). 

4 MR. McGARAGHAN: Okay. Then I'm-- 

5 MS. GUPTA: 5.9. 

6 (Off the record comment.) 

7 MR. McGARAGHAN: The final rule was 

8 5.9. 

9 MS. GUPTA: Yes. 

10 MR. McGARAGHAN: Okay. So 

11 regardless looking at the far right column, 

12 lumens per watt, we know that there are 

13 products out there that are better than this. 

14 GE has a whole product line that beats all of 

15 those numbers. Phillips has a couple of 

16 products and this is a couple of years that 

17 beat these numbers. 

18 And then DOE actually did some of 

19 its own research and testing and found other 

20 product and measured it at 27 lumens per watt 

21 without the use of a proprietary reflector. 

22 And our team at PG&E along with ASAP and NRDC 
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1 funded some other product testing and 

2 development just to see what kind of 

3 efficacies were possible and got upwards of 37 

4 lumens per watt, 38 lumens per watt. And we 

5 submitted it in our comment letter a pretty 

6 detailed description of various methods, not 

7 just the fanciest HIR coatings but three or 

8 four different pathways to efficacy levels 

9 that greatly exceed these. 

10 So I think later down the road DOE 

11 can look at those and consider comments like 

12 Susan's. Is it feasible to manufacture in the 

13 large quantity or not? Is it cost effective? 

14 What would be the impacts to industry? 

15 Those are perfectly valid 

16 questions. But at this stage these numbers 

17 don't represent max tech by any stretch of the 

18 imagination. We can go so far beyond this and 

19 we could two years ago. So I think DOE has 

20 really stopped short here. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex. 

22 MR. BOESENBERG: Out of curiosity 
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1 for these theoretical lamps you determined and 

2 designed, how many of these did you produce 

3 and how many got UL certified? 

4 (Off the record comments.) 

5 Okay. One of our challenges has 

6 been actually passing safety standards with 

7 some of the reduced size lamps. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

9 MR. McGARAGHAN: I'm sorry. 

10 Reduced size lamps? 

11 MR. BOESENBERG: The smaller you go 

12 when you ram a halogen capsule in it it gets 

13 too hot on the outside. 

14 MR. McGARAGHAN: Okay. 

15 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We're going 

17 to move on. 

18 Well, Keith and Susan, go right 

19 ahead. 

20 MS. ANDERSON: Go ahead, Keith. Go 

21 first. 

22 MR. COOKE: On Item 8, I do want to 
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1 express concern regarding the analysis. I 

2 think the one thing that this thing falls 

3 short on is understanding component 

4 availability. And, in particular, you need to 

5 include in your analysis of what's going to 

6 happen with rare earth materials for the 

7 (Inaudible) going forward. 

8 That's going to make a huge 

9 potential impact on what (Inaudible) be 

10 included in the (Inaudible) 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank 

12 you. Yes, I would like to make sure we 

13 address eight, 12 and 13 sufficiently. And as 

14 I scan through them I'm not sure yet. 

15 Go ahead, Susan. 

16 MS. ANDERSON: Well, I was going to 

17 kind of add on to what Alex was saying. You 

18 reach a temperature point where you can no 

19 longer use the IR coatings. They won't hold 

20 up to the temperature. There are temperature 

21 limits that you experience with those. And 

22 you can't use them above a certain wattage. 
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1 Or if you shrink the size of the lamp so much 

2 so much heat is trapped. The coatings will 

3 just disintegrate. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

5 MR. McGARAGHAN: Yes. Actually, 

6 the smaller lamp issue is one I've come 

7 across. My understanding was the exact 

8 opposite for the high wattage, the high lumen. 

9 My understanding was that's when the best 

10 halogen infrared lamps really shine when you 

11 get to the really high power products. And I 

12 wish Advanced Lighting was here because -- 

13 MS. ANDERSON: No. There's a 

14 maximum temperature which we can actually use 

15 the IR coatings. 

16 MR. McGARAGHAN: My understanding 

17 is we're not approaching that. 

18 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, we have. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks, 

20 Susan. 

21 Steve Rosenstock. 

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock, 
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1 EEI. For the IRLs, I'm still a little 

2 concerned based on what I've seen from other 

3 rulemakings. I understand the need to 

4 streamline the analysis. 

5 But I'm getting a little worried 

6 about some of the scaling in particular here 

7 because of the fact that especially because -- 

8 You know you're going to scale the larger 

9 lamps to the smaller lamps and then higher 

10 voltage to lower voltage and then two 

11 different spectrums. I don't know how much 

12 that -- 

13 But there are certain things that 

14 say is it really -- Is that number -- You set 

15 it for this one particular lamp and then you 

16 do it for all the other seven lamps shown in 

17 the standards. Is it really scalable with 

18 certain either technical or just space issues 

19 sometimes? 

20 I mean if you set it -- You're 

21 doing all of the analysis just based on this 

22 one lamp and then you're just extrapolating 
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1 the other seven lamps. Is it really scalable 

2 or is there some sort of -- Maybe there might 

3 be one way -- one standard deviation. But you 

4 might be talking about three or four standard 

5 deviations away where the equation, that 

6 efficacy equation, really doesn't work. 

7 Because you have to look at -- The 

8 coefficients range right now from 4.2 to 6.8. 

9 So obviously there is something significant 

10 when you're looking at the lamps in terms of 

11 how efficient can you make it. And you're 

12 taking it to 5.9 and you're thinking "Oh, just 

13 go 5.9 to 6.4. And then modify every other 

14 equation the same way." You might not be able 

15 to just because of certain either technical or 

16 space or safety reasons. 

17 So again there might be an issue. 

18 And again we're not at the preliminary 

19 analysis. But there might be an issue of you 

20 might need some more sample lamps in this 

21 category to really make the scaling more 

22 appropriate. Just my thought just from like a 
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1 statistical analysis and just from what I've 

2 seen of other rulemaking where you get just 

3 too far away. The scaling just really doesn't 

4 work. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So now shall 

8 we -- 

9 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Scan 

11 through. Did they answer them sufficiently? 

12 Do you have anything you could call out? 

13 MS. HUSAIN: I think we've touched 

14 on most of these. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

16 MS. HUSAIN: So actually the 

17 comment that was just stated it's related to 

18 the next two slides which is scaling products 

19 not analyzed. As mentioned before, DOE will 

20 determine efficacy levels for product classes 

21 not analyzed by scaling. The level is 

22 determined from representative product 
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1 classes. And we are considering using the 

2 scaling factors developed in the 2009 Lamps 

3 Rule. 

4 And here is just a summary of them. 

5 They've been mentioned before. For the two 

6 foot, U-shaped lamp, DOE is considering a 

7 reduction of 6.5 percent from the four foot 

8 medium bipin lamps. For lamps with CCTs above 

9 4500 Kelvin, DOE is considering a reduction in 

10 the range of 1.1 to 6 percent for the lower 

11 CCT levels. 

12 For modified spectrum IRL versus 

13 standard spectrum, considering a 15 percent 

14 reduction. For small versus large diameter a 

15 15.5 reduction. For 120 versus 130 

16 considering a 15 percent increase. 

17 DOE welcomes comments on it's 

18 scaling methodology. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Any 

20 additional comments on scaling factors? 

21 (No verbal response.) 

22 As Aisha said, these are built off 
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1 the 2009 Rule. Right? 

2 (Off the record comment.) 

3 Okay. So you ought to be familiar 

4 with this. 

5 Steve Rosenstock. 

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So just a quick 

7 one. Again, just getting back to the 

8 incandescent, you're looking at 5.9 to 6.4 for 

9 the under 120 volt. So would that mean for 

10 the over 120 volt it would be a similar -- 

11 Let's just say it's a ten percent just to make 

12 it easy. You're going 6.8 to let's say 7.4. 

13 Then you're adding 15 percent on top of that 

14 in terms of scaling. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And that's why I'm 

17 a little worried about some of these things. 

18 You know, 5.9 to 6.4, apply it to the other 

19 one and then add another 15 percent if I'm 

20 doing it right. 

21 MS. ANDERSON: Just, Steve, 

22 remember 130 volts is already a dead issue 
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1 anyhow. They've already killed it. 

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So I guess that 

3 makes it easier. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

5 Susan. 

6 Pekka. 

7 DR. HAKKARAINEN: And then 

8 following on the discussion that we've had 

9 that Alex started with the smaller diameter 

10 lamps I'm not convinced that in my mind that 

11 the scaling factor from 2009 is appropriate 

12 anymore. They may want to do a different 

13 analysis on the smaller diameter lamps. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can you say 

15 now what direction we should head in? 

16 DR. KAARSBERG: Are you talking 

17 about the coefficient or the exponent? 

18 DR. HAKKARAINEN: I'm talking about 

19 the second bullet or line. 

20 DR. KAARSBERG: Oh, scaling. 

21 DR. HAKKARAINEN: On the scaling 

22 factors for IRLs. The 15.5 percent reduction 
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1 factor for small diameter. I'm not sure 

2 that's appropriate. We don't know enough yet 

3 at this point, but I'm concerned that that may 

4 not be appropriate. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 Mike. 

7 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan on 

8 that point. We also looked at the small 

9 diameter lamp issue last time. I think DOE 

10 came up with that scaling factor based on an 

11 assumption that you couldn't fit a double12 ended burner into small diameter lamps. And I 

13 don't know if that's still the case. 

14 At one point I know that Phillips 

15 had an MR-16 product that was available in 

16 Europe that had a double-ended burner with a 

17 bulge over the lens. They bulged the lens in 

18 order to fit a double-ended burner. 

19 An MR-16 lamp is much smaller than 

20 an AR20 or PAR20. So it seemed to us to be 

21 shown to be feasible to fit a double-ended 

22 burner in those lamps. 
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1 The other comment on modified 

2 spectrum. I think we would probably make the 

3 same comment we made last time. There's a 

4 very specific definition of what it means to 

5 be a modified spectrum lamp. And I think 

6 there are -- We tested a bunch of different 

7 products and found that there are some out 

8 there being marketed as modified spectrum that 

9 didn't actually meet the definition. 

10 And I unfortunately don't have the 

11 definition in front of me right now. But I 

12 believe it's a three McAdams step from what is 

13 considered standard spectrum. In establishing 

14 the reduction factor for modified spectrum 

15 lamps, DOE should consider what is the 

16 efficiency loss for a product that just 

17 changes those three McAdams steps. 

18 If you test a product that actually 

19 has a much greater spectrum shift and its 

20 efficiency losses is greater, then you leave a 

21 potential for a loop hole for a product that 

22 might only modify the spectrum those three 
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1 McAdams steps and have a much smaller 

2 efficiency loss. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

4 The comment box which follows on 

5 the next slide just simply asks again for 

6 comments related to scaling factors, the 

7 specific ones here. So are there additional 

8 comments on scaling factors? 

9 (No verbal response.) 

10 Okay. Then we're going to move on. 

11 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. DOE would also 

12 like comments on other aspects of engineering 

13 analysis including proprietary design, 

14 regulatory burdens or any other issues that 

15 could affect the analysis, at this time. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve. 

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

18 I just wanted to comment. It's always 

19 encouraging to hear about some of these 

20 advanced technologies. But again if they are 

21 proprietary designs or everything on patents, 

22 they're not going to be -- There's going to be 
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1 competitive effects if only one manufacturer, 

2 one entity, can manufacture that product. 

3 I think proprietary designs are 

4 great and new technologies are great. But 

5 unless there are multiple vendors of it that 

6 could be an issue in the marketplace, 

7 especially if the standard is set so high that 

8 it knocks all the other competitors out of the 

9 marketplace. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan. 

11 MS. ANDERSON: The issue with 

12 proprietary designs is that that needs to be 

13 addressed individually with each company. 

14 They really are not comments that we can make 

15 in a public meeting like this. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

17 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. So I'll be 

18 moving on to product price determination and 

19 energy use analysis. The product price 

20 determination analysis will establish end user 

21 prices for lamp models. DOE is planning to 

22 use the same approach it used in the 2009 
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1 Lamps Rule where prices were developed by 

2 discounting blue book values to come up with 

3 high, medium and low prices for each lamp. 

4 The medium price ranges will be 

5 used in the LCC and NIA analyses. And the low 

6 and high price ranges will be used in the LCC 

7 sensitivities. Where a blue book value is not 

8 available for a lamp, the price will be 

9 extrapolated from available lamp prices. In 

10 addition, DOE plans to apply weighted average 

11 sales tax data by region. DOE will also 

12 conduct a price trends analysis and 

13 investigate methods for forecasting future 

14 prices. 

15 DOE welcomes comments on its 

16 proposed methodology for determining product 

17 prices. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Keith. 

19 MR. COOKE: We don't have a real 

20 problem with the methodology. But we are very 

21 interested in how you're going to factor in 

22 this rare earth influence on the GSFLS. That 
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1 will be quite intriguing. 

2 MS. GUPTA: This is Mimi. Yes, I 

3 think this kind of goes back to one of the 

4 comments that Aisha highlighted for on the 

5 rare earth slide, understanding how rare earth 

6 prices have changed for manufacturers in 

7 recent history and what kind of change in lamp 

8 price that resulted in. And that relationship 

9 would be helpful to conduct an analysis. 

10 MR. COOKE: The other part of it is 

11 your analysis typically involves a 30 year 

12 forecast. 

13 MS. GUPTA: Right. 

14 MR. COOKE: I don't know how you're 

15 going to project those prices out 30 years. 

16 DR. KAARSBERG: This is Tina. I 

17 think we'll probably piggyback on some of the 

18 department's analysis for rare earth elements 

19 because it's really rare earth elements are 

20 key to a lot of clean energy technologies. 

21 And I think that -- And I've been talking -- I 

22 admit Alex is the one who alerted me to the 
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1 DOE Critical Materials Report. 

2 But I know some of the folks 

3 working on it. I've been in touch with them. 

4 And they're going to be looking at some 

5 different like market scenarios and we hope to 

6 be able to piggyback on that. Like, for 

7 example, right now China accounts for 90 

8 percent of the extraction and manufacturing of 

9 all rare earth elements. But rare earth 

10 elements are not only in China. They're 

11 scattered throughout the earth's crust. 

12 MR. COOKE: You need to be careful 

13 of that because you need to understand which 

14 ones were only used in the lighting industry. 

15 And right now like Mountain Pass does not 

16 produce the materials we need. 

17 DR. KAARSBERG: Right. Right. 

18 Well, I'm not going to speak to any specific 

19 things. But my general understanding is that 

20 there could be a strategy and coordination 

21 with our partners where we try to in the long 

22 term, you know, obviously not in the time set 
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1 of this rulemaking, but in terms of analyzing 

2 where those kinds of things could go. We 

3 would look at scenarios like that. And there 

4 has been some talk about that. 

5 So I can just assure you we are 

6 going to include more analysis and it will 

7 draw upon other DOE analysis. Apparently 

8 ARPA-E is also looking at the whole issue as 

9 well. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex. 

11 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

12 NEMA. I mentioned it to Tina, but I'll state 

13 it again for the benefit of everyone who 

14 wasn't sitting with us in the courtyard last 

15 week that for the mines that are being 

16 restarted or that are scheduled for 

17 groundbreaking to begin construction of a new 

18 mine bear in mind the length of time it takes 

19 to go from groundbreaking to actually being 

20 able to supply those materials. It's measured 

21 in years. 

22 And the other thing that is worth 
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1 bearing in mind is the machines to perform the 

2 extraction, the squeezers, whatever they do, 

3 the bulk of the expertise in that methodology 

4 all speak Chinese. If it's not a first 

5 language, they've learned it because that's 

6 where they live. So getting just the 

7 expertise to even manage the extraction once 

8 you've got the earth movers is a concern. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan. 

10 MS. ANDERSON: I believe if you go 

11 back to the information that NEMA supplied 

12 during the last rulemaking it actually 

13 included an independent analysis, an expert 

14 analysis, on where the various rare earths 

15 were located. So you might use that as a 

16 reference going forward. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank 

18 you. 

19 Alex, go ahead. Follow on. 

20 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

21 NEMA. I have a comment not related to rare 

22 earth but to the cost analysis. I again 
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1 wanted to caution about too much postulation 

2 regarding product price and product 

3 availability. As we noted, manufacturers have 

4 not yet decided. And it's a business decision 

5 in as much as we're also grappling with 

6 technological decisions. Manufacturers have 

7 not cited what products they're going to offer 

8 in July 2012. 

9 So your life cycle cost 

10 projections, the right answer might be zero 

11 instead of $1, $2 because some folks might 

12 just choose to shut those lines down as 

13 nonprofitable because of the amount of 

14 redesign and investment required for a 

15 particular line of products. 

16 And that's not something I'll be 

17 able to comment on as the trade association 

18 rep. But individual companies are making 

19 those analyses now and will make those 

20 decisions. We won't find out until July of 

21 next year. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 
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1 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 

2 And the other -- Just a few things. First of 

3 all, I would like to just recommend that the 

4 Department for now focus on the methodology. 

5 Obviously there are some missing pieces that 

6 we won't have for a little while. But if we 

7 have the methodology into which to insert 

8 numbers later that would be adequate at this 

9 stage. 

10 Second, I think since we're all 

11 talking dollars here I started modeling and 

12 doing large scale modeling here some 40 years 

13 ago. And I think I can speak with some 

14 authority that since 2008 most anything you're 

15 modeling involving dollars can be termed 

16 chaotic at this point. We're in that period 

17 and I don't see that changing. So I think 

18 you're going to have to do the best you can to 

19 just sort of draw straight lines through all 

20 the jagged peaks and valleys because I think 

21 that's kind of the realm we're in. 

22 The third, if DOE does have any 
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1 holes in its pricing down the road when it 

2 needs data and it comes from the market. My 

3 organization is prepared to spend some money, 

4 serious money if need be, to go get 

5 marketplace data if you need it and to put it 

6 on the public record. So let us know if you 

7 have holes that we can fill. 

8 MS. HUSAIN: Now we'll move onto 

9 the energy use. The purpose of the energy use 

10 characterization is to determine the energy 

11 savings potential of energy efficiency 

12 improvements. It does this by determining the 

13 energy consumptions of lamps which is 

14 calculated by multiplying the power rating by 

15 the number of hours of operation per year. 

16 This analysis will be an input to 

17 both the LCC and the payback period and the 

18 NIA. DOE plans to use various sources to 

19 determine annual operating hours for 

20 commercial, residential and industrial 

21 sectors. These sources are listed here in the 

22 second bullet. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve 

2 Rosenstock. 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

4 EEI. Just a comment on especially this 

5 methodology and the residential sector. I 

6 think it's really important. I think RECS 

7 does do a good job, but I think there are some 

8 big factors there that are really having a 

9 huge impact on lighting, energy use and the 

10 residential sector. Based on date from Energy 

11 Star actually it looks like compact 

12 fluorescents have got a 20 percent market 

13 share starting in 2006 and 2007. And it's 

14 stayed pretty steady. Maybe it's declined a 

15 little bit down to like 15 percent. 

16 But that CFLs have replaced a lot 

17 of incandescents in the homes and they're 

18 typically put into the most used fixtures 

19 because Energy Star says especially for CFL 

20 operation they're best used in the actual 

21 light fixtures that are operated two, three, 

22 four hours a day in your home which are the 
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1 ones that are going to be responsible for a 

2 good 50, 60, 70 percent of the lighting energy 

3 usage. 

4 The other factor that's considered 

5 if possible for this methodology is the fact 

6 that you know a lot of homes do have dimmers. 

7 And a lot of dimmers are used. So that will 

8 have an impact in both the baseline energy 

9 usage as well as the projected energy usage. 

10 I don't know if RECS actually has 

11 information that describes in detail 

12 percentage of dimmers and how many lights are 

13 actually used with dimmers. But I think it 

14 does play a role in some -- That will play a 

15 role in the methodology. 

16 And, of course, the other factor 

17 especially in the residential sector is just 

18 the diversity, just the fact that you have 

19 some residential factors that are on three, 

20 four, five hours a day and other factors that 

21 might be on three hours a month based on their 

22 location. And you obviously in terms of life 
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1 cycle cost and payback analysis the range in 

2 the residential sector will be very, very 

3 wide. 

4 So I hope that in this methodology 

5 that it's not assumed that every single light 

6 bulb replaced is on for three or four hours a 

7 day in the residential sector because that 

8 will overstate the savings by a huge magnitude 

9 in that sector. Thank you. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan first. 

11 MS. ANDERSON: I have a question 

12 and then a comment. When is the Lighting 

13 Market Characterization Study 2011 going to be 

14 available? 

15 MS. GUPTA: Mimi. 

16 MS. GUPTA: This is Mimi. 

17 Hopefully in 2011. 

18 MS. ANDERSON: Okay. If you go 

19 back and look at the one published in 2003 

20 incandescent reflectors in residences were 

21 used 2.4 hours. That was the typical. 

22 And I believe as I read the 
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1 document it talked about averaging use across 

2 the market sectors. And I would certainly 

3 hope that residences -- I read that would 

4 never be averaged in with commercial because 

5 there's such a substantial difference in 

6 operating hours. And it would be totally 

7 unfair to the residential user to evaluate 

8 them based on average rather than their actual 

9 short operating hours. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

11 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 

12 In reference to what I said earlier, we are 

13 currently spending money to do a fixture-by14 fixture metering study in residential, 

15 something of the order of 2200 fixtures by 

16 fixture type. And we'll have some pretty 

17 refined data that should be able to be 

18 combined with what California got earlier. 

19 We'll get the first sample of that 

20 data in January or February of next year. And 

21 we're going to be metering for a year 

22 initially. So we'll probably have data about 
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1 a year from now, a year's worth of data a 

2 little over a year from now. We'll be doing 

3 the same thing in the commercial sector 

4 starting in 2012, fixture-by-fixture hours, 

5 fixture type, along with a survey. 

6 And we'll have all the demographics 

7 of all of the households down to the ages of 

8 the people who live there and everything else 

9 to go with it. And that data will be made 

10 publicly available once it's cleaned up so you 

11 can use it. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

13 Keith. 

14 MR. COOKE: The other thing we've 

15 got to be careful of is that by taking a look 

16 at just the appliances that goes to the system 

17 we may be misleading ourselves. It goes back 

18 to what Pekka was saying earlier where if we 

19 set the standard high enough that it actually 

20 eliminates the existing incandescent reflector 

21 lamps. And we replace them with CFLs and 

22 people quit using their dimmers because of the 
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1 fact that they don't like the results. Your 

2 energy usage could actually go up as opposed 

3 to down. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

5 Susan. 

6 MS. ANDERSON: Actually dimming was 

7 the issue that I was going to bring up. And I 

8 made a phone call on behalf of NEMA a couple 

9 of months ago to try to find out about the 

10 residential programs that NSTAR and a couple 

11 of other utilities in the northeast have going 

12 that is actually doing testing of installing 

13 lighting control systems in homes. And the 

14 gentleman that I spoke with is actually with 

15 the company that's managing the project. So 

16 they were using a 20 some percent energy 

17 savings for people using dimmers. 

18 And I asked him where he got that 

19 number because NEMA was looking at actually 

20 funding a study. And we've been working with 

21 California Lighting Technology Center on that. 

22 And if somebody's already done the study, then 
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1 we don't need to. 

2 And he said that information came 

3 from the DOE. And I tried searching on their 

4 website and so did Alex. And where he 

5 referred to the Better Homes I think it is. 

6 DR. KAARSBERG: Better buildings. 

7 MS. ANDERSON: Better buildings. 

8 And I could not find it referenced there. But 

9 if the DOE has already determined that using 

10 dimmers that provides a 27 percent energy 

11 savings, that's substantial. And it goes to 

12 show the importance of using dimmers. I mean 

13 I for one have virtually every fixture in my 

14 house on a dimmer. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Pekka, 

16 follow on. 

17 DR. HAKKARAINEN: I was actually 

18 quickly going to ask Charlie about his study. 

19 Are you documenting whether our lighting 

20 controls on any of those circuits including 

21 dimmers since we've been talking about this. 

22 MR. STEPHENS: Absolutely. We'll 
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1 know all of that. Every fixture. 

2 DR. HAKKARAINEN: That's great. He 

3 may provide another answer to this question. 

4 I'd like to chat with you during the break a 

5 little bit. 

6 MR. STEPHENS: No problem. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Great. 

8 Yes, Tina. 

9 DR. KAARSBERG: I had a follow-on. 

10 Some of you are probably well aware that we 

11 had a lighting system or luminaire RFI out on 

12 the street. And I think in that document we 

13 quoted someone else saying that lighting 

14 controls which can include dimmers, but I 

15 think it was controls can save 30 percent. 

16 But it wasn't a DOE study. It was from 

17 somewhere. But I do remember that. So it's 

18 possible that there was -- 

19 DR. HAKKARAINEN: This is Pekka. 

20 There are lots of studies in commercial 

21 buildings that document savings from lighting 

22 controls of all kinds. We have been recently 
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1 concerned about the lack of data regarding 

2 residential applications. 

3 But we're getting some new 

4 information here which is very helpful. If 

5 you are able to point us to a DOE reference, 

6 in particular what Susan cited, the 27 percent 

7 please let us know what it is. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan. I'm 

9 sorry, Tina. Go ahead. 

10 DR. KAARSBERG: I was just going to 

11 say I'll look through the whole docket again. 

12 And we're also doing a summary of all the 

13 comments we got. And we'll have some kind of 

14 output on that. 

15 But I will be following it up. And 

16 anything we do get from then on if you're on 

17 my lighting list you'll get it. You'll get an 

18 announcement. 

19 MS. ANDERSON: We were actually 

20 following up on it because of Energy Star 

21 because we would like to see lighting controls 

22 have a -- There would be a lighting category 
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1 under Energy Star for lighting controls. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

3 MR. STEPHENS: I will add before 

4 people get excited about controls. The worst 

5 case we did find in California was a house -- 

6 it was a large house granted -- where the 

7 lighting control system used 900 watts 24/7 

8 with all the lights off. So we don't 

9 automatically assume savings with control 

10 systems. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's 

12 proceed. 

13 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. Any other 

14 comments on energy use or is that it? 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We're 

16 behind. Do you feel like -- 

17 MS. HUSAIN: The next is just 

18 comments on them. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Maybe we've 

20 addressed this one. Did we address this? 

21 Yes, I think so. 

22 How are you all doing? We haven't 
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1 got that many slides left. Do you want to 

2 take just a quick break? Let's just take ten 

3 minutes and then let's come back and finish 

4 up. Okay? 

5 MS. HUSAIN: Sure. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So wear your 

7 badge in the building please and just get up 

8 and move around. And then we'll resume. It 

9 will be ten minutes after 2:00 p.m. by my 

10 watch. We haven't got that much more to go I 

11 think. Off the record. 

12 (Whereupon, a short recess was 

13 taken.) 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: On the 

15 record. Okay. We're going resume picking up 

16 where we left off. This is life cycle cost 

17 and payback period analysis. And we're 

18 returning to Aisha. 

19 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. So the LCC 

20 analysis determines the impact of the energy 

21 conservation standards on consumers under 

22 several scenarios such as new construction, 
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1 replacement and renovation. The LCC has two 

2 components. One is the first cost which is 

3 the consumer price plus the installation cost. 

4 And the second is the operating cost. 

5 The analysis period for LCC is 

6 generally the baseline lamp life divided by 

7 the average operating hours. When appropriate 

8 DOE calculates residual value for the 

9 remaining useful life of the lamp at the end 

10 of the analysis period. 

11 Through this method, DOE will 

12 calculate the total life cycle cost for each 

13 standard level. And results will be expressed 

14 as LCC savings. That is the baseline LCC 

15 minus the standard level LCC. DOE also plans 

16 to calculate and report on the simple payback 

17 period. 

18 Now we will go into more detail 

19 regarding the first cost and total operating 

20 costs. The first cost comprises of the 

21 purchase price and installation cost. The 

22 purchase price is made up of the product price 
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1 and sales tax. DOE may use different prices 

2 for commercial and residential sectors. 

3 Installation cost is the product of 

4 the average labor cost and the time needed to 

5 install the lamp. DOE plans to calculate the 

6 installation cost for the commercial sector, 

7 but plans to assume no installation cost for 

8 the residential sector. DOE also plans to 

9 use the RS means, electrical cost data and 

10 data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics 

11 to estimate installation costs. 

12 The second main input to the LCC is 

13 total operating cost which comprises of 

14 electricity consumption and the electricity 

15 cost. Consumption is based on lamp wattage 

16 and operating hours as determined in the 

17 energy use analysis. Electricity cost 

18 consists of the electricity price and 

19 projected electricity price trends. 

20 DOE is planning to derive energy 

21 price trends using the Energy Information 

22 Administration's Form 861 which collects 
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1 electric utility data annually and also use 

2 the EIA's Annual Energy Outlook for 

3 projections of future average electricity 

4 prices. 

5 DOE will also use a discount rate 

6 to calculate the present value of any cash 

7 flows over the analysis period. The discount 

8 rate is calculated separately for the 

9 residential, industrial and commercial 

10 sectors. The discount rate will be the 

11 estimate of interest or finance cost. And the 

12 finance cost of raising funds can be financial 

13 cost of any debt incurred to purchase a 

14 product as well as the opportunity cost of any 

15 equity used to purchase a product. 

16 DOE welcomes comments on this 

17 methodology for determining LCC and payback 

18 period. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Both life 

20 cycle costs and payback period analysis. 

21 Keith. 

22 MR. COOKE: We have no real issue 
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1 with this approach. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

3 Susan. 

4 MS. ANDERSON: I guess the one 

5 concern is you don't know yet what the new 

6 products that meet the last set of standards 

7 are going to cost yet. You're going to have 

8 to wait on that. 

9 And Steve Rosenstock is in the 

10 room. And his group is an excellent source of 

11 information about utility rates. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Great. 

13 MS. ANDERSON: So for an alternate 

14 source. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve. 

16 She's queued you up. 

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you for that 

18 plug. But I know that DOE has done this 

19 before. I think the one issue especially with 

20 the -- It looks like you're using 2009 data. 

21 By early next year the 2010 data should be 

22 available as well as AEO 2012 to use in terms 
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1 of trying to get the most recent prices out 

2 there as well as projections. 

3 I think especially on electric cost 

4 there's going to be a couple wild cards based 

5 on some EPA decisions. Because I think based 

6 on some of the announcements already by some 

7 of the utilities, there's going to be a big 

8 change in the generation portfolio over the 

9 next several years that's going to have an 

10 impact on electricity prices in the U.S. both 

11 in terms of coal generation as well as 

12 renewables I think. So I think that's one 

13 thing to consider is that you might need 

14 another scenario, not just reference, high/low 

15 scenarios which are really economic growth, 

16 but reference high and not as high 

17 environmental standards that could have a 

18 significant impact in terms of some of the 

19 prices that are going to be out there. 

20 Thank you. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank 

22 you. 
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1 Charlie. 

2 MR. STEPHENS: Speaking to, when 

3 you get into discount rates and finance costs, 

4 I can understand how you'd want to apply that 

5 in cases like an air conditioning system or a 

6 boiler or something like that. But in the 

7 purchase of light bulbs, I'm really having a 

8 little trouble with using any kind of finance 

9 cost here to purchase these products. 

10 If you were talking a fixture or 

11 multiple fixtures, I could see that. Put it 

12 on a credit card or whatever. But you know I 

13 don't know anybody who buys light bulbs other 

14 than with cash or a debit card. And I'm just 

15 having trouble applying that concept to a 

16 product that, you know, to a lamp or even a 

17 little package of lamps. I think you really 

18 need to take another look at that part of the 

19 analysis for this particular product type. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan first. 

21 MS. ANDERSON: I was just going to 

22 say that I think where it's coming into play 
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1 there if people are going to have to remove 

2 T12 fixtures and put in T8. That's where I 

3 certainly see it coming into play as opposed 

4 to just replacing a lightbulb. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: They're not 

6 replacing one typically. 

7 MS. ANDERSON: Right. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right. It's 

9 a series of them. 

10 Steve. 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I think it's some 

12 of this -- 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan wasn't 

14 finished. 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry. 

16 MS. ANDERSON: And the other thing 

17 when you're doing commercial and industrial 

18 are you also going to include disposal costs? 

19 MS. GUPTA: Yes. I think in the 

20 last rulemaking we did consider some disposal 

21 cost for fluorescent lighting. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 
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1 Thanks Mimi. 

2 Steve. 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

4 I'll kind of follow up on what Charlie says. 

5 I know I buy light bulbs with my credit card 

6 because it's a rewards card. But I think 

7 there is data out there whether it's from 

8 whether it's from -- 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: But you pay 

10 it off every month, don't you? 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Of course. So you 

12 know what my interest rate is. So I think 

13 there is information out there either from 

14 banking associations or retail associations in 

15 terms of -- and maybe from especially what may 

16 be hardware stores where everyone is selling 

17 all the light bulbs -- but in terms of just 

18 percentage of purchase, cash, credit, debit. 

19 And that might be a nice way to help with the 

20 analysis is obviously debit. 

21 There is no interest rate, but 

22 things are totally chaotic now with certain 
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1 new Federal rules. So that might also help in 

2 some of this analysis in terms of percentage 

3 based on actual credit card versus debit 

4 versus cash/check. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Tina. 

6 DR. KAARSBERG: I myself asked the 

7 same question about whether or not it was 

8 appropriate to consider debt equity ratios 

9 when purchasing a light bulb. However, I 

10 guess there is a need to have a standard 

11 approach throughout all of our rulemakings. 

12 And when we consider a class we're always 

13 considering a class versus something else. I 

14 think that's part of the answer to why it's 

15 that way. 

16 But I would -- If you all have a 

17 better suggestion of how we might want to 

18 approach this, I would encourage you to offer 

19 suggestions. Now is an excellent time to do 

20 so. But I think in the absence of such 

21 suggestions we'll probably stick with the 

22 overall appliance standards procedure. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

2 MR. STEPHENS: I think you really 

3 need to adjust it to the product at hand quite 

4 frankly. But my opportunity cost, I know 

5 that's in there as an alternative and I know 

6 my opportunity cost right now is what about 

7 0.5 percent or 0.4 percent if I actually save 

8 the money. It's very low right now. 

9 And so I'm not saying you should 

10 use zero. But I'm saying that the numbers 

11 should probably be pretty low compared to what 

12 it would be for the purchase of large capital 

13 equipment. This is not capital equipment. 

14 This is the kind of thing that's expensed on 

15 almost everybody's. You know, in a business 

16 sense, it's expensed. It's not a capital 

17 expenditure. 

18 Now I will make an allowance for 

19 multiple fixture replacement. I can see where 

20 that instance would have maybe a credit card 

21 rate applied to it. I'm not saying you 

22 shouldn't do that in those cases. But in 
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1 other cases where it really is lamp purchase 

2 I'm suggesting that you really need to tailor 

3 this to the product at hand or your analysis 

4 is not real. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So 

6 moving on to the shipment analysis and 

7 National Impact Analysis. 

8 MS. HUSAIN: The purpose of the 

9 shipment analysis is to estimate the shipments 

10 of lamps being considered in this rulemaking 

11 and the product mix of the stock over the 

12 analysis period in the base case and the 

13 standards cases. The National Impact Analysis 

14 uses the shipment and stock estimates to 

15 determine national energy savings and net 

16 present value at various standards. The 

17 analysis period for the shipment and NIA will 

18 be over 30 years starting from 2017 to 2046. 

19 To determine lamp shipments, DOE 

20 plans to use the methodology used in the 2009 

21 Lamps Rule. DOE plans to use NEMA data and 

22 any other data that becomes available to 
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1 determine distribution of shipments among 

2 product classes and forecasts for installed 

3 stock. 

4 We will then develop shipment 

5 forecasts by applying growth emerging 

6 technologies and shipment assumptions and 

7 determining the percentage of market share of 

8 each lamp type by taking into account 

9 efficacy, power rating, light output and 

10 lifetime of the lamp and lamp ballast systems. 

11 Now we will go into the 

12 calculations for the national energy savings 

13 and net present values. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We have a 

15 question here. 

16 Steve. 

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock, 

18 EEI. It's actually on the shipments one. I 

19 wonder if in this case again -- and 

20 unfortunately it's too early to kind of see if 

21 there's going to be any sort of possible 

22 substitution effect. Because again, depending 
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1 on the price increase for some of the 

2 incandescent reflector lamps -- I'll just talk 

3 to those in particular -- some people might 

4 switch over to compact fluorescent floods even 

5 if they don't do the same utility just because 

6 of the price impact. 

7 And the other reason I would say 

8 that is I just know based on what happened 

9 with the central air conditioning shipments 

10 and heat pumps after the 2006 Rule when 10 to 

11 13 (Inaudible) The shipment forecast was much 

12 higher than what actually happened which was 

13 people just delayed or just -- Of course, it 

14 was a part of the economy, but shipments went 

15 down like 20 percent and no one had projected 

16 that. So that would have a huge impact. 

17 So I think with these products 

18 again I would especially say for the 

19 residential and maybe for the -- especially 

20 for the residential sector I don't know. They 

21 might want to look at a sensitivity analysis 

22 for just substitution based on price impacts, 
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1 initial price impacts, if that's possible. 

2 Thank you. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks. 

4 So let's keep going with this 

5 slide. 

6 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. The National 

7 Energy Savings is the difference in the annual 

8 energy consumption between the base case and 

9 the standards case. The inputs are listed 

10 here, installed stock, unit annual energy 

11 consumption, electricity site-to-source 

12 conversion factors which are calculated using 

13 the annual energy outlook, the rebound rate 

14 for which DOE plans to use one percent for the 

15 commercial and industrial sectors and 8.5 

16 percent in the residential sectors. 

17 For the net present value, this is 

18 the operating cost savings minus the increase 

19 total installed cost at present value. For 

20 these the inputs are shipments, per unit 

21 installed cost, electricity prices and also it 

22 would be applying two different discount rates 
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1 as directed by OMB guidelines. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And before 

3 you go on would you just describe what rebound 

4 rate is. 

5 MS. HUSAIN: Sure. In general 

6 terms, rebound rate is defined when cost 

7 savings from energy savings lead to certain 

8 consumer responses that might lead to greater 

9 usage of the product and thereby may diminish 

10 some of the benefits of the energy saving 

11 improvements. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank 

13 you. 

14 Steve Rosenstock. 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

16 EEI. A couple of things. In terms of the 

17 rebound rate, is that based on other lighting 

18 surveys or lighting studies done. Well, 

19 especially for the commercial/industrial 

20 sector, I just kind of don't know if there's 

21 any real rebound rate just because when -- At 

22 least the commercial customers I've worked 
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1 with, they put in the new products to save 

2 money. And the only time they'll change the 

3 hours is if the hours of the operation 

4 actually change because of business purposes 

5 not because of the new standard. 

6 And residential sector that's an 

7 interesting number. But again I'm wondering 

8 if both are a little too high. And I'm just 

9 wondering if there are studies out there fine. 

10 I'm just kind of curious where the numbers 

11 came from. 

12 MS. HUSAIN: So these numbers are 

13 based on a survey of literature that quoted 

14 about four reports I think. And it's 

15 referenced in the framework document. 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

18 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 

19 Yes, I did look at your quoted references and 

20 I'm not sure they're applicable here. I kind 

21 of second Steve's concerns that the number of 

22 the residential rate anyway is a little high. 
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1 If there is a rebound rate, I'm not sure I 

2 would necessarily attribute it to the more 

3 efficient technology. 

4 I notice we're down at 0.4 watts a 

5 square foot in our offices. And I know 

6 there's been a little bit of rebound there. 

7 But it's more a lack of awareness of what's 

8 happening with the control system I think at 

9 various times than the fact that everything is 

10 efficient. We'll just leave them on more. 

11 So I think they need to be looked 

12 at. And I think you just need to be sure that 

13 whatever rates you're choosing are really 

14 applicable to lighting in both sectors. I 

15 mean I'm okay with what you come up with as I 

16 think the effect might actually exist. But 

17 I'm not convinced it's 8.5 percent in the 

18 residential sector. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Any 

20 additional resources, Charlie? 

21 MR. STEPHENS: We might have. I'd 

22 have to go back and look. I think we've done 
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1 some work in this area. But again I don't 

2 know that it's relevant to lighting either. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 

4 Steve. 

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

6 EEI. Also as a follow-on especially in 

7 commercial buildings especially with building 

8 codes requiring more and more lighting, 

9 automated lighting controls, I think that will 

10 also suppress some of the rebound rate as 

11 well. Again that's just based on codes and 

12 standards, not necessarily operational. But 

13 again there are more mandates for more 

14 controls especially commercial/industrial 

15 buildings. So that's going to suppress any 

16 rebound. Again, my personal view. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And second point 

19 is on the site-to-source conversion factors, I 

20 think there should be a sensitivity analysis 

21 again based on what's happening with EPA 

22 rulemakings because I have seen some -- There 
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1 have been a lot of press announcements about 

2 the older coal-fired plants being retired or 

3 just being refueled with natural gas or being 

4 replaced with biomass or some renewals. And I 

5 believe some of these numbers could go down 

6 quite significantly compared to the AEO 2011 

7 projections. Thank you. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Pekka. 

9 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Pekka 

10 Hakkarainen. I guess I can't help myself. I 

11 know you are required to project to 2046. But 

12 it's like projecting the path of a hurricane 

13 that hasn't even started yet. 

14 Please don't use more than one 

15 significant figure in any numerical estimates. 

16 Even that is likely to be wrong. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank 

18 you. 

19 You can see the comment boxes 

20 listed there in 21 and 22. Take a peek. See 

21 if there is anything else that you wish to 

22 address on those comment boxes. 
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1 Keith. 

2 MR. COOKE: Yes, we're a little bit 

3 concerned about how we're going to project the 

4 future sales because we're already starting to 

5 see a negative impact from rising prices. 

6 With the new rule kicking in next year, we 

7 can't tell what's going to happen to the sales 

8 after that. 

9 We're already seeing delays today 

10 from the impact of the rare earth price 

11 increases. Now we're going to exacerbate it 

12 even further with the existing rule kicking 

13 in. We're concerned about what's going to 

14 happen with the incandescent reflectors also 

15 having to go to the HIR technologies. That's 

16 going to drive prices up. 

17 As a result for the comment 22 I 

18 think it is in particular we're very concerned 

19 about what's going to happen to the paybacks 

20 and ROIs. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

22 MS. GUPTA: Doug, can I ask a 
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1 question? 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please, 

3 Mimi. 

4 MS. GUPTA: Mimi Gupta. So, Keith, 

5 when you said you'd seen a significant 

6 decrease in your sales due to the price 

7 increases, the recent price increases, where 

8 are those consumers? What are those consumers 

9 purchasing? Are they just living in the dark? 

10 MR. COOKE: They're delaying 

11 purchases. 

12 MS. GUPTA: Oh, delaying purchases. 

13 So like for new construction or? 

14 MR. COOKE: New construction, the 

15 whole market is already in the dumps. 

16 MS. GUPTA: Or for renovation or? 

17 Right. Right. 

18 MR. COOKE: But even for retrofit 

19 business. 

20 MS. GUPTA: I see. Okay. 

21 MR. COOKE: We're seeing a lot of 

22 delay. 
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Existing 

2 users are delaying upgrades essentially. 

3 MR. COOKE: Yes. 

4 MS. ANDERSON: As I said earlier, 

5 we got calls from the utility companies 

6 because they were already seeing the impact. 

7 They couldn't get the paybacks and the ROIs 

8 that their customers demanded to justify going 

9 forward even with their incentive programs. 

10 MR. COOKE: What we're having to do 

11 just so you're aware of it is get very, very 

12 creative on including not just a lamp-for-lamp 

13 replacement like we've done in the past, but 

14 it has to be a complete system where we're 

15 going and doing all the controls and 

16 everything else in order to get a sale. We're 

17 having to provide financing ourselves in order 

18 to make these things work now. I mean these 

19 are dire straits. 

20 DR. KAARSBERG: Can I? 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Tina. 

22 DR. KAARSBERG: This is Tina. If I 
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1 could follow up. Are there any like areas 

2 where you are seeing increases or slower drops 

3 than you might have otherwise expected? I'm 

4 sort of jokingly thinking of how instead of 

5 changing the light bulbs in the basement I now 

6 go down there with my LED headlamp. But 

7 that's more of a labor issue than a light bulb 

8 price issue for me. 

9 But anyway I'm just curious. Are 

10 there any kind of anomalies in the data that 

11 indicate some kind of substitution going on? 

12 MR. COOKE: Not for, I would say, 

13 general traditional tungsten filament type 

14 lamps. But you're right. On the LEDs there 

15 are some huge drops happening. Whether or not 

16 they're going to get down to the $10 range I 

17 don't see that in the near future. But I do 

18 see it eventually happening. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Take 

20 a peak at 21 and 22. Other comments on those 

21 requests which has been addressed once? 

22 (No verbal response.) 
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1 Okay. Then the next slide is 

2 23/24. As you can see data sources that 

3 anticipate using as inputs. They've touched 

4 on data sources. Some of you are going to 

5 look for that. 

6 And comments on quantitative and 

7 theoretical underpinnings of the rebound 

8 effect as well as results of newer studies on 

9 size and sign of the rebound effect, 

10 residential, commercial and industrial, for 

11 consumers? Anything additional on those? 

12 Nothing additional? 

13 (No verbal response.) 

14 Okay. But then the comment boxes 

15 continue. 

16 MS. HUSAIN: Yes. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I have 25 

18 and 26. Take a peek at those. 

19 (Off the record comment.) 

20 Nothing on that at this time. 

21 Okay. So then we're onto the final topic. 

22 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. So I'll just 
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1 briefly discuss some of the other analyses 

2 that DOE plans on conducting in the NOPR stage 

3 of the rulemaking. And we'll start with the 

4 manufacturer impact analysis. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Pardon me. 

6 Mike has a question or a comment. 

7 MR. McGARAGHAN: Sorry. I thought 

8 I missed my chance. This is what I was 

9 waiting for. Go ahead. 

10 MS. HUSAIN: Okay. So the purpose 

11 of the manufacturer impact analysis is to 

12 assess the impacts of standards on the 

13 manufacturers to identify and estimate impacts 

14 on manufacturer subgroups that may be more 

15 severely affected than the industry as a whole 

16 and to examine direct employment impacts, 

17 manufacturing capacity and regulatory impact 

18 on the industry. 

19 DOE plans to do this using the 

20 Government Regulatory Impact Model or GRIM to 

21 analyze industry, cash flow and industry net 

22 present value. DOE also plans to interview 
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1 manufacturers. 

2 On this slide, we're just showing 

3 the three phases of the manufacturer impact 

4 analysis. In phase one, DOE will create an 

5 industry profile and will conduct this first 

6 phase in the preliminary analysis using 

7 publicly available financial information and 

8 preliminary manufacturer interviews. And in 

9 phase two, DOE will prepare an industry cash 

10 flow model and an interview questionnaire for 

11 manufacturers. In phase three, DOE will 

12 interview manufacturers and assess the impacts 

13 of standards both quantitatively and 

14 qualitatively. DOE will conduct the second 

15 two phases in the NOPR stage. 

16 We welcome comments on the 

17 manufacturer impact analysis. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan. 

19 MS. ANDERSON: The one comment that 

20 we had for this was the fact that the 

21 fluorescent prices are so volatile at this 

22 time. And literally I mean we've notified our 
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1 customers in writing to expect month-by-month 

2 price increases. And when it comes to IRL 

3 those product lines aren't finalized yet. 

4 DR. HAKKARAINEN: What are you 

5 going to get? 

6 MS. ANDERSON: Yes. We don't have 

7 any data yet. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank 

9 you. 

10 Charlie. 

11 MR. STEPHENS: I just had one 

12 question. When you're dealing with an 

13 industry where they manufacture a lot of the -

14 - you know, such a broad cross section of 

15 product and there is essentially some 

16 substitution that might go on, it frequently 

17 is a substitution within the industry from one 

18 -- same company, but a different type of 

19 product, a different technology or whatever. 

20 Say solid state lighting. Somebody shifts 

21 from fluorescent to solid state. 

22 The company will have different 
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1 cash flow one way or another when that 

2 happens. But the question is how does your 

3 analysis account for those shifts that are 

4 kind of internal to the company in question on 

5 aggregate. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Tina. 

7 DR. KAARSBERG: I confess. I am 

8 not really familiar with the GRIM model. But 

9 I can tell you that manufacturing impact 

10 analysis comprises two parts. One is the GRIM 

11 model and how we represent that. 

12 But the other is the sort of more 

13 qualitative. And if we're dealing with 

14 something that we are unable to represent in 

15 the GRIM it would definitely be represented or 

16 would appear and be discussed as part of the 

17 qualitative part. So we definitely would 

18 capture that. We just might not be able to 

19 analyze it the same way. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mike. 

21 MR. McGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan, 

22 California IOUs. I would echo Charlie's 
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1 comments and just add that in the last round 

2 of standards DOE did draw a box around just 

3 the IRL product class and the impacts on 

4 shipments and just the GSFL product class. 

5 And I completely agree with Charlie that there 

6 is a lot of shifting going on. In fact, DOE 

7 models a shift scenario and where they do put 

8 estimates on the amount of shipments that 

9 shift to higher efficiency products. 

10 So I think it's really important to 

11 capture those impacts. And EPCA (phonetic) 

12 says and I'll read here that "DOE needs to 

13 capture the economic impact of the standard on 

14 the manufacturers of the products subject to 

15 such standard." So in this case we're mostly 

16 talking about GE, Phillips and Sylvania and a 

17 handful of others. 

18 But those three manufacturers are 

19 also making solid state lighting. So to 

20 disregard the fact that they're seeing 

21 increases in sales there I think is an 

22 oversight. And it's kind of a double whammy 
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1 because on the one hand if we just look at 

2 their shrinking sales that's one sort of loss 

3 of revenue for the manufacturers. 

4 The other more important one is the 

5 issue of mark-ups. We played with the GRIM 

6 model last time to see what was the -- how big 

7 of an impact the assumed mark-up had. And 

8 it's huge. It really skews the numbers if you 

9 assume margins can be maintained or margins 

10 can't be maintained. And solid state lighting 

11 is exactly where those mark-ups are now 

12 happening in a product that's not defined in 

13 this product class. 

14 So, sure, if you look just at these 

15 products, it's harder to maintain margins as 

16 standards get tougher. But as standards shift 

17 more products to or more purchases to solid 

18 state, that's really where the new margins 

19 are. I think it's important for DOE to 

20 broaden the way it draws that scope a little 

21 bit. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve 
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1 Rosenstock. 

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

3 EEI. There could be the compact fluorescent 

4 substitution as well for some of these 

5 products. And as we know there is no domestic 

6 manufacturers of compact fluorescent 

7 technology as far as I know or at least large 

8 scale that I'm aware of. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie. 

10 MR. STEPHENS: I would just be 

11 careful about that. All of the ones I buy 

12 have the name from one of the big three, two 

13 of whom are sitting in the room here, on them. 

14 So they may not manufacture them themselves 

15 but. 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, this is a 

17 major margin impact. 

18 MR. STEPHENS: Well no. I'm 

19 talking about industry cash flow and profit. 

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. Well, one 

21 thing I was going to say in terms of this 

22 model is if it's possible it would be 
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1 interesting to see if there could be some 

2 modeling of impact of domestic versus overseas 

3 type of job shifts because that's a little bit 

4 of an issue in Washington, D.C. these days. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Susan, do 

8 you want to comment? 

9 MS. ANDERSON: No. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Tim. 

11 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, 

12 Earthjustice. Just to follow on to Mike's 

13 point and I think to a point that I think Tina 

14 raised. There is these qualitative factors 

15 that are considered in the MIA and one of them 

16 is cumulative regulatory burden which is sort 

17 of the impact on the manufacturer of a 

18 fluorescent lamp by virtue of the fact that 

19 there are also regulations for GSILs or HID 

20 lamps, anything. 

21 So it's sort of logically 

22 inconsistent to consider the impact of 
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1 regulations for those products but not to 

2 consider any benefit for those products 

3 manufactured by the same set of manufacturers 

4 from these regulations. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 Steve, you weren't done. 

7 (No verbal response.) 

8 You're all set. Okay. Additional 

9 comments on this? 

10 (No verbal response.) 

11 So then we're on -- Did you do the 

12 preceding slide? 

13 MS. HUSAIN: That was the comments 

14 slide. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: This Chevron 

16 thing. 

17 MS. HUSAIN: Yeah. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You did. 

19 Okay. Then we're moving on to 28 and then 

20 finally to the NOPR analyses. 

21 MS. HUSAIN: Right. So this is a 

22 list of some of the other analyses that DOE 
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1 will be conducting in the NOPR stage. There's 

2 a life cycle cost subgroup analysis that looks 

3 at effects on various national consumer 

4 subgroups, the utility impact analysis which 

5 looks at the impacts on the generation 

6 capacity of utilities, the employment impact 

7 analysis which looks at indirect impacts on 

8 overall national employment. We'll also do an 

9 environmental assessment and a regulatory 

10 impact analysis. I haven't gone through these 

11 in a lot of detail here, but more detail is 

12 provided in the framework document. 

13 The next set of slides sort of 

14 touch on comments we're requesting for these 

15 various analyses. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve 

17 Rosenstock. 

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

19 EEI. In terms of some of your environmental 

20 analysis when I looked in the framework 

21 document, the framework document did not even 

22 mention the fact that EPA is coming out with 
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1 rules on CO emissions of generation plants. 

 2

2 The rule was delayed. It was supposed to be 

3 announced last month or earlier. 

4 But according to the EPA schedule 

5 they're supposed to come out with proposed 

6 rules this fall and a final rule next summer. 

7 And it's not even mentioned in the framework 

8 document which was really surprising to me. 

9 And also there is going to be a 

10 final rule on mercury and particulate matter 

11 this fall. There has been changes in the 

12 sulfur dioxide and NOx rule that was 

13 announced. All of these are going to have 

14 significant impacts in terms of racheting down 

15 power plant emissions. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Betsy. 

17 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl, DOE. 

18 When EPA publishes something in the Federal 

19 Register, a proposed rule or a final rule, we 

20 can take a look at it. But until they do, we 

21 have no basis to include it in our analysis. 

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 
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1 EEI. I appreciate that. But it didn't even -

2 - I'm worried about the framework not 

3 documenting, not even mentioning, the fact 

4 that there's a proposed timetable that could 

5 have an impact on the DOE analysis. And I 

6 think that is -- 

7 MS. KOHL: We don't have any basis 

8 to know when EPA is going to do that. 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: They publish it on 

10 their website. 

11 MS. KOHL: They have a timeline. 

12 That may change. Until they publish something 

13 in the Federal Register, we have no basis to 

14 act on it. But when they do, we'll include it 

15 in the analysis as we go along. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Charlie 

17 Stephens. 

18 MR. STEPHENS: My question was this 

19 is a framework discussion and the question 

20 here is do you have the ability in the way you 

21 will do the analysis to include it if it 

22 happens and when it happens. 
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1 MS. KOHL: When it happens, yes. 

2 But the if is the problem. 

3 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. 

4 MS. KOHL: That's for DOE to see. 

5 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. And if you 

6 do, then some of us during the framework stage 

7 might like to know how you could include it as 

8 part of the discussion. 

9 MS. KOHL: Until we know what they 

10 do, we don't know how we would address it is 

11 the problem. This is Betsy Kohl. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve. 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: One item to 

14 consider under what EPA announced is that they 

15 said they were going to come out with a final 

16 rule in July of 2012. That's published on 

17 their website. I don't know why you're 

18 laughing at me. But that is published on 

19 their website. That's what EPA has announced. 

20 That's a fact. 

21 MS. KOHL: I'm not laughing at you. 

22 But schedules change, all right, for a whole 
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1 host of reasons. 

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I understand that. 

3 MS. KOHL: So until they issue the 

4 final rule we wouldn't have any basis to know 

5 what they're even going to publish. Right? 

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I understand. 

7 MS. KOHL: We don't know what shape 

8 the final rule is going to be in. 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I understand that 

10 completely. But the fact is they publish it 

11 on their website. It was a public 

12 announcement. And the fact that this rule 

13 could come out in July and that the 

14 preliminary analysis would be coming out in 

15 September, there could be a timing issue in 

16 terms of some of the preliminary analysis. 

17 That was my point I was about to get to. 

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So you can 

19 see the list of the other NOPR analyses and 

20 many of you, perhaps most of you, are quite 

21 familiar with these. And you can see the 

22 request for comment in items 27, 29 and 30 and 
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1 31 and 32 on the subsequent page. So any 

2 additional comments on these at this time? 

3 Tim Ballo. 

4 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo. Just one 

5 quick follow-up to Steve's point. The 111 

6 standards that he's talking about, greenhouse 

7 gas standards for power plants, will have only 

8 guidelines for existing power plants. So it's 

9 going to be several years yet I think before 

10 anybody knows how those guidelines will play 

11 out. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

13 Pekka. 

14 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Pekka 

15 Hakkarainen. This is not really a direct 

16 answer to any of the questions posed. But 

17 since we are at the end, I'll just make the 

18 comment that I would like to spend more of my 

19 energy and I think I have some friends here 

20 who feel likewise on real energy saving 

21 opportunities in buildings and outside of 

22 buildings and not focus so much on component 
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1 regulation at this point. It has diminishing 

2 returns. 

3 We have lots of opportunities in 

4 our buildings. So I would appreciate very 

5 much if we could have the time available to 

6 focus on that. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank 

8 you. And as you know there's another 

9 opportunity for comment at the end of the day. 

10 Let's do the next slide. 

11 MS. HUSAIN: We're just skipping 

12 that other slide in the packet. So this is 

13 basically a slide that provides information on 

14 submitting comments for the framework 

15 document. And the comment period deadline is 

16 October 31st. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. So 

18 I'm handing out the evaluation form. And 

19 there is an opportunity now to comment, raise 

20 additional issues, anything you think wasn't 

21 covered sufficiently during the course of the 

22 day. I see Pekka. 
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1 DR. HAKKARAINEN: Yes. I wanted to 

2 answer Betsy's question earlier from this 

3 morning regarding the comment period. We've 

4 sort of conferred here and we would like to 

5 request that both comment periods end at the 

6 same November 28th date. 

7 MS. KOHL: Thank you. It's Betsy. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve, you 

9 have an additional comment. 

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

11 EEI. I was just looking at the email address 

12 on the slide versus the email address on the 

13 Federal Register notice. Has that changed? 

14 MS. HUSAIN: For which? 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: One's for the test 

16 procedure and one is for the -- I'm sorry. 

17 MS. HUSAIN: I'm sorry. I was 

18 flipping back and forth. This is for the test 

19 procedure. 

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you very 

21 much. 

22 MS. HUSAIN: And this is for the 
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1 framework. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks 

3 Steve. It's a good spot. 

4 Okay. So I've just handed out the 

5 evaluation form. We're nearing the end of 

6 this meeting. I don't wish to diminish 

7 anyone's capacity to make a final comment or 

8 raise any additional issues. 

9 Tina? 

10 DR. KAARSBERG: Well, if no one 

11 else has a comment, I just want to comment 

12 that I really thank you all for all of your 

13 great comments. Sorry we couldn't answer 

14 every single question you asked. But we will 

15 try to do so in the future and you've given us 

16 lots of things to consider and to work on. I 

17 think it's been very constructive and I look 

18 forward to continuing to work with you as we 

19 go through this. 

20 Again thanks for coming. And, 

21 folks on the webinar, thanks for signing up. 

22 And I hope this was useful for you as well. 
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1 Bye. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks to 

3 all of you. 

4 Yes, Mike. 

5 MR. McGARAGHAN: Just a procedural 

6 question. Are the webinars -- You mentioned 

7 earlier you didn't want people to -- You asked 

8 people to mute their phones. Is there an 

9 opportunity for people on the webinar to 

10 actually speak in these meetings? Or will 

11 there ever be? 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Tina. 

13 DR. KAARSBERG: Yes. This is Tina. 

14 Our webinar approach is evolving. And in one 

15 of the webinars we had before this one we 

16 actually had someone who was one of the 

17 presenters dial in over the webinar. And I 

18 think right now we're saying if someone has 

19 prearranged to speak then that's great. We'll 

20 do that. 

21 However, just from the logistics of 

22 it, it's difficult -- we can't. It's a little 
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1 bit difficult to have people just chiming in 

2 because there's not really quite yet the same 

3 equivalent of sort of raising your hand right 

4 now. Maybe there should be and the speaker 

5 phone and having people forget to mute it and 

6 whatever. 

7 But if you think that we should 

8 evolve towards that, that's something we'll 

9 take into consideration. This is definitely a 

10 record number of people we've had 

11 participating. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Steve. 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: If I could follow 

14 on real quickly I believe you're using -- And 

15 again it might be proprietary -- like 

16 go2meeting type of software issue. 

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Today we 

18 did. Yes. 

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I believe one of 

20 the things is people could raise their hands 

21 in the right-hand corner. 

22 PARTICIPANT: And it appears on the 
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1 screen? 

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, and it 

3 appears on the screen. 

4 PARTICIPANT: We use that. 

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So again they 

6 could unmute their phone to ask questions. So 

7 I've been doing meetings like that for years. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We've made a 

9 start on it. We're trying to figure out ways 

10 for individuals to get their comments or 

11 questions into the record. So anyway it's 

12 something -- There are some technical things 

13 like -- There are some glitches to be worked 

14 out. But appreciate the comment. 

15 Okay. So thanks to all of you. 

16 Safe travels. Appreciate your comments today. 

17 Off the record. 

18 (Whereupon, at 2:49 p.m., the 

19 above-entitled matter was concluded.) 

20 

21 

22
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187:1,7 189:14

191:21 192:8,16

193:11 194:4,19

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198:19 199:15

200:4,14 201:5

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buildings 219:6,7

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bulb 89:3 92:16

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bulbs 229:7,13

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bulge 201:17

bulged 88:22 89:1

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bulk 77:5 209:3

bullet 91:14 93:2

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bunch 202:6

burden 20:9 26:8

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burner 201:12,16

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C

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campaign 111:1

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capsule 91:7 97:1,2

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capsules 96:17,19

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case 37:6 44:1 46:2

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cases 77:11,21

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cash 226:6 229:14

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cash/check 232:4

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charter 115:9

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Chevron 256:15

chiming 267:1

China 98:1 207:7

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choices 176:9

choose 140:3,22

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chose 51:17 80:21

chosen 87:13 141:2

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circline 77:10

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circuit 27:2

circuits 219:20

circulating 64:17

cited 210:7 221:6

clarification 25:8

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clarify 53:12 132:6

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clarity 65:5

class 80:2 106:11

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132:20 140:8,22

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classes 77:3 88:12

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cleaned 217:10

clear 29:22 45:22

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close 100:18 150:12

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closer 103:15

closing 3:16 9:11

coal 98:5 228:11

coal-fired 242:2

coating 130:22

coatings 91:6,6

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codes 241:8,11

coefficient 189:22

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coffee 68:2

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cold 182:12,22

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color 90:14 118:22

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colored 92:20

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151:6,18 157:9

162:5 163:14

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180:18 181:6

184:8 190:6 191:5

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202:1,3 203:4,18

209:21 210:17

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comparatively

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comparing 151:15

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comparisons 65:15

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competition 75:19

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comply 174:4

component 193:3

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compositions

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concentrate 110:15

concept 229:15

concern 35:5,20

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conclusion 30:2,4,6

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Congress 71:9

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Consequently

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constant 90:16

constitutes 89:10

constraints 118:16

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construction

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63:13 135:20

142:21 143:8

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127:21 128:12

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191:13 209:22

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224:20 225:11

226:20 229:3

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168:6 179:12,16

180:19 190:15,16

218:8,10 228:4

238:16

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course 45:8 74:9

86:10 214:16

231:11 236:13

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cover 91:13 126:17

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26:16 36:10 63:20

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135:19 136:4

138:12 164:7

165:17 166:2,11

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covering 93:15

covers 184:9

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created 119:11

creative 245:12

credit 83:15 229:12

231:5,18 232:3

233:20

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CRI 163:18 164:4,5

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CRIs 167:13

criteria 116:19

179:11

criterion 27:5 28:2

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critical 47:17

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cross 250:14

cross-referencing

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crowd 138:2

crust 207:11

cumulative 74:16

74:18 255:16

curiosity 191:22

curious 42:16 43:1

57:11 183:21

239:10 246:9

current 19:11

24:13 27:9,15

28:4,6,8,18 41:2

72:6 73:12 80:12

98:11 100:13

105:11,18 122:16

128:9 162:19

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91:12 92:7,13,14

96:19 105:9,13

107:22 131:1

143:20 189:11

216:13

Curry 1:19 6:14,14

22:16 35:8,8,10

35:17,22 38:12,12

45:13,18 47:21,21

48:4,8 50:1

134:20,20 135:3

150:14,14,17

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129:6,22 130:16

238:22 245:8

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cycle 41:22 42:1

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C78.81-2005 24:13

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C78.81-2010 26:1

D

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dance 113:18

dangerous 103:8

dark 244:9

data 16:10 33:16

33:16 55:7 58:2

59:3 73:19,22

74:1 76:21 77:17
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Daylight 164:15

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Deluxe 164:15,15

demand 72:14 73:5

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demanding 76:19

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demographics

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Department 1:3,16

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69:7 70:10 82:22

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design 42:11 78:11

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133:9 192:2

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designs 91:7 160:9

173:12 203:21

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detail 24:8 25:10

40:15 89:5 90:8

117:12 140:20

167:19 214:11

224:18 257:11,11

detailed 60:14

78:10 103:17

191:6

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detector 28:11

37:14

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5:3,4 7:10,18

15:20,21 17:16,17

17:22 18:8,9,16

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getting 33:20 45:12

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GSILs 19:4,6,16

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200:21 219:17

220:2,19 242:9,10

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103:15

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implications 52:11

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124:12 134:16

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215:20 217:20

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incandescents

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individually 204:13

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22:22 24:9,11,20

24:22 26:14 27:15

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69:10 103:18

110:22 111:21

122:18 167:22

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influence 205:22

influences 69:20

information 7:17

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intent 142:13

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IRL 16:2 19:13

22:13 31:12 32:1

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90:10 94:22

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108:4 110:5

116:16 124:7

136:12 137:6

159:6 168:2

181:10 198:12

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IRLs 19:7 21:11

31:14 36:11 61:3

83:1 88:13,18,19

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92:14 105:13,16

108:7,16,22

123:21 158:20

175:1 180:19

183:7 195:1

200:22

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irresponsible 73:14

issue 13:12 21:15

24:3 36:20 38:4

43:5 47:9 56:8

66:13 97:22

105:21 110:6,20

124:9 127:7 128:4

128:18 132:6

147:14 170:14

172:16 176:2

182:22 183:1

188:22 194:6

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201:9 204:6,11

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246:7,8 253:5

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issued 15:3

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104:10

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79:9 80:15 81:22

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124:19 149:3

163:7 166:20

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261:13

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78:14 170:4

Justice 6:11 82:22

83:4 94:20

justification 85:4

justified 92:1

justify 76:22 77:1

130:17 245:8

K

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22:6,6 23:2,7

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65:6 125:9 142:6

169:17,22 170:10

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KAARSBURG

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Keith 1:18 6:8 44:6

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111:10 112:21

114:8 115:14

117:19 124:13

128:14 131:14

133:3 144:17,18

146:4 169:13

185:12 192:18,20

205:18 217:13

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kind 13:19 15:2

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190:12 195:8,11

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221:7 227:5,18

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233:15 236:8,20

238:20 240:5

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Kohl 1:22 7:10,10

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170:8 258:17,17

259:7,11 260:1,4

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Ku'uipo 1:19 6:14

35:8 36:5 38:12

45:2,12 47:21

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L

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label 186:3,22

labeling 40:2

labor 62:11,12

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laboratories 34:21

35:13,14,18 38:13

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laboratory 37:18

labs 34:4,12,13,14

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lack 29:11 77:20

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laid 63:21

lamba 28:12 29:20

lamp 5:4 18:1 19:3

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26:16 27:3,22

29:9,16 40:21,21

41:6,12 42:6,11

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53:6,9 54:2 56:2

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77:4,8 81:21 82:3

82:3 84:6 89:13

90:14 91:2,10,11

91:17,18,19 92:9

92:11 95:11,13

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101:12 108:11,12

112:4,6 115:4

116:15 117:10

118:17,19 119:2

119:22 120:6

123:8,22 124:1

127:12 128:12

132:18 133:21

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135:22 136:4

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146:10 148:4,5,12

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149:21 150:5

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154:19,20 160:8

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162:10,18 163:1,3

163:9,10 164:1,5

165:2 173:9,14,15

173:21,22 174:3

174:15 175:7

182:5,7 183:13

184:2 186:1,2

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194:1,6 195:15,22

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229:16 234:1,19

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lamps 1:6,6,7 4:7

15:21,21,22 17:17

17:17,18 18:9,10

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19:10 23:21 24:17

25:16,21 26:2

27:7 29:14 34:11

36:17 39:17 40:5

40:14 41:6,11,15

41:21 42:16 47:11

51:13,14,19,20

52:20 57:13 60:10

72:11 75:9 80:17

80:18 81:18,20

87:3,5 88:19 89:3

89:9 90:12,18

91:5 92:5,10,11

92:15 93:1,3,4,6

93:10,16 94:1

95:21 96:3,15,18

97:10,21 105:6,8

105:10 106:14,19

106:19,22 108:2

109:17,20 112:2

113:16 117:10,18

119:9,10,12,14,15

119:18 120:19,21

123:14 124:2,12

124:19 125:6,14

126:21 127:17,22

128:7 129:5

130:11,18 131:1,2

132:9,12,15,16

133:8,19,22

134:21 135:6

136:19 140:6,7

141:5,9,10,13,17

143:10,12,18,20

155:18 158:21

159:3,5,7,8,10

160:12 163:18

164:4,6,8,14

172:14,14 173:9

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174:3,7,10,11,19

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182:6,8,9,11,16

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187:22 188:2,7,15

189:11 192:1,7,10

194:10 195:9,9,16

196:1,10,20 198:2

198:8,8 200:10,13

201:12,22 202:15

205:1 212:13

217:21 229:17

234:10,21 236:2

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lamp's 126:8

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language 177:13

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lanthanum 171:7

large 51:19 142:1

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larger 62:19

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largest 79:6

lastly 76:7

late 13:20 74:20

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latest 24:14,19

25:14,17 26:7,18

27:19

laughing 260:18,21

Laughter 5:1

Laura 58:22

law 91:1 183:10

layer 127:16

LCC 139:20 205:5

205:6 212:17

223:19 224:1,5,14

224:14,15 225:12
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lead 189:2 238:7,8

leads 188:13

leap 85:19

learned 209:5

leave 67:18 97:19

138:5,11 202:20

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LED 76:1 246:6

LEDs 131:18

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left 223:1,16

legally 79:5

length 17:10 40:5

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lengths 29:16 92:12

lens 121:3 201:17

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letter 191:5

letters 23:8

let's 11:22 12:7

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68:9 87:17 107:14

112:18 116:6

122:20 137:18

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level 73:16 80:21

80:22 83:2 85:21

102:17 124:16

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levels 73:7 80:20

84:3 118:10

132:20 140:13

147:19 174:1,8,14

174:20,22 175:8,9

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LE6 23:6

life 37:9 39:16

47:11 52:15,18

53:1,7 57:18 66:8

82:6 83:16 133:21

134:6,13 139:19

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lifetime 18:1 19:4

19:16 20:18 39:6

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lifetimes 59:17

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Life-Cycle 3:14 9:5

light 28:13 32:13

72:12 96:3 97:13

103:3 108:13

112:6,9,15 118:19

118:21 119:2

133:11 134:4

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150:15 156:14

158:16 159:9

162:12 188:20,21

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229:7,13 231:5,17

232:9 235:9 246:5

246:7

lightbulb 230:4

lighted 108:18

lighting 1:18 6:3,9

22:10 23:2,4,14

39:21 91:12

106:18,21 112:1,8

114:16 119:16

120:20 121:7

156:19 171:8

194:12 207:14

213:9 214:2

215:12 218:13,21

219:19 220:11,13

220:21 221:17,21

221:22 222:1,7

230:21 238:17,18

240:14 241:2,8,9

250:20 252:19

253:10

lights 214:12 222:8

likewise 262:20

limit 10:6

limitations 182:11

limited 78:2 114:4

174:10

limits 193:21

Lindsay 87:1

line 19:22 46:3

64:22 87:1 99:13

104:10 114:9

131:1 132:8

135:17 136:6

181:14 190:14

200:19 210:15

linear 98:18 146:9

linears 146:7

lines 161:19 210:12

211:19 250:3

link 14:17

links 16:18

Liss 104:11

list 14:14 35:14

76:13 128:20

221:17 256:22

261:19

listed 76:9 91:17

93:2 131:17 141:5

212:21 237:9

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listening 67:10

literally 249:22

literature 165:1

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little 30:2,3,14,22

38:4 48:3 55:4,14

75:2 84:22 89:5

102:11 107:17

112:21 123:4

162:14 167:18

169:18 176:15

188:3 195:1,5

199:17 211:6

213:15 217:2

220:5 229:8,17

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243:2 253:20

255:3 266:22

live 209:6 217:8

living 244:9

LM 24:18 26:17

49:13,18

LMs 48:9 49:12

LM-20-1994 31:13

LM-45 24:19,21

27:20,21 29:2

30:7

LM-49 40:12,17

48:22

LM-49-2001 39:15

48:18

LM-6 23:5

LM-9 24:20 29:2

34:5 35:10,13

LM49 41:16

LM49-2001 48:10

loading 120:4

located 98:14

209:15

location 62:22

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locations 62:21

108:13

locked 138:10

logically 54:1

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logistics 266:21

long 55:19 79:5

82:19 152:21

163:2 207:21

longer 73:13

130:16 133:2,21

134:1,6 193:19

long-term 148:1

172:17

look 5:9,9 21:12,17

32:8,9,12 35:18

38:4 47:12 55:20

59:1 78:8 83:19

95:21 116:19

120:3 123:13,13

125:10 143:7

144:20 166:19

167:21 172:16

176:7 180:15

184:17 188:15

191:11 196:7

208:3 215:19

217:15 221:11

229:18 236:21

239:19 240:22

247:5 253:1,14

258:20 265:17

looked 23:20 59:14

84:3 186:11 201:8

240:11 257:20

looking 22:7,8

32:13 50:12 66:12

80:15 83:20 84:11

85:20 92:3,10

107:3 110:3 120:7

125:17 147:5,7

153:9 160:2,16

170:1 176:8,14

177:22 178:2

183:17 185:21

190:11 196:10

199:8 207:4 208:8

218:19 264:11

looks 68:18 83:15

175:16 180:1

183:18 189:20

213:11 227:20

257:2,5,7

loop 115:18 202:21

loophole 105:11

132:22

loss 124:18 202:16

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29:12 47:17 77:10

106:16 107:7

134:21 135:6,10

135:18 205:3,5

233:8,11

lower 47:6,17

94:12 136:3 151:8

195:10 198:10

lowest 184:13

lumen 108:1 111:3

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luminary 108:11

luminous 108:14

lunch 3:11 8:18,21

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magnet 172:7

magnitude 98:8

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MAHIMA 1:20

mail 67:2

mailing 14:14

main 24:20,22

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225:12

maintain 26:13

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maintained 152:5

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maintaining

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major 25:17 51:4

254:17

majority 91:11

132:8 133:19

makers 172:7

making 64:7 68:11

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110:18,21 116:9

138:13 151:11

161:9 163:18

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manage 70:11

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Manager 5:18

managers 129:3

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mandated 78:8

mandates 85:6

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151:18 157:7,11

159:8,11 161:1

163:1,17 166:9

176:10 206:6

210:3,6 248:13

249:1,11,12

252:14,18 253:3

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manufacturer's

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251:9

margin 254:17

margins 253:9,9,15

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market 3:9 8:17

44:13 46:13 56:2

57:15 58:12 76:18

81:13 83:18 94:14

105:11 106:13

107:7,8,8 116:9

116:12,16 117:14

117:18 118:3

127:18 140:11

153:7 159:16

163:2 166:14

170:6 207:5 212:2

213:12 215:13

216:2 235:7

244:15

marketed 120:22

202:8

marketing 148:12

marketplace 71:12

71:19 125:15

130:19 167:8

168:20 204:6,9

212:5

marking 41:6

mark-up 253:7

mark-ups 253:5,11

mass 117:2

match 28:10 29:21

186:16

matched 148:5

matches 147:7

matching 144:2

material 8:7 15:12

29:22 102:5

materials 7:21

15:10 99:9 103:4

193:6 207:1,16

208:20

math 103:14

matter 66:3,5

110:21 172:6

258:10 268:19

matters 154:18

Mauer 1:23 7:2,2

86:9,9 104:16,16

105:3 166:8

178:10,21

Maureen 1:21 3:5

7:6 15:10,14

66:13

max 79:22 80:22

84:13,15,21 85:20

85:22 111:14

174:6 175:8,17

176:8,17 177:1,14

177:17,22 178:2,6

179:9,19 180:2,15

181:2 183:9,11

191:17

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140:14 174:5

179:15 180:6

194:14

McAdams 202:12

202:17 203:1

McGARAGHAN

2:1 6:18,18 21:3,3

33:11,11 45:21,21

63:2,2,9,15 65:22

100:6,6 101:22

102:3 106:9

112:20 113:2

121:19,19 122:15

126:2,2 132:3

135:6,9 157:3,3

162:4,4 163:12

164:3,21 165:11

167:11,14 179:6,6

189:16 190:4,7,10

192:9,14 194:5,16

201:7,7 248:7

251:21,21 266:5

mean 4:22 13:11

26:22 32:8,11

34:10 43:11 45:14

46:8 53:12 57:14

62:21 78:22 84:10

99:9 111:4 122:11

130:19,21 131:10

131:11 134:21

135:16 148:18

155:3,4,17,21,22

156:1,11,19 158:8

171:3 176:15

177:20 185:1

195:20 199:9

219:12 240:15

245:18 249:22

meaning 58:14

117:1

means 37:15 67:16

149:18,19 202:4

225:9

measure 22:18,19
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median 52:14,16

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medium 25:21

52:18 83:22 84:6

92:16 95:12

104:11 146:16

148:4 163:21

174:12 198:8

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70:12 75:17 131:1

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166:12,20 167:8

168:3 185:3 202:9

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meeting 1:5,12,13

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9:21 11:17 15:17

15:19 43:18 93:13

114:17 115:4,7

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meetings 90:1

266:10 268:7

meets 61:6

members 65:18

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membership 64:18

mention 23:12

75:22 103:17

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mentioned 17:14

20:3 25:14 46:17

51:11 57:21 76:19

92:22 107:16,19

108:10 140:21

141:14 173:16

174:18 197:19

198:5 208:12

258:7 266:6

mentioning 259:3

mercury 258:10

merging 94:22

met 1:12 27:5 28:2

91:4 115:9 143:11

159:4 160:22

174:13,14 188:8

metering 216:14,21

method 18:11 27:3

27:22 39:16 49:16

108:3 122:17

224:11

methodology 25:2

40:18 61:5 88:3

140:1 175:6

198:18 205:16,20

209:3 211:4,7

213:5 214:5,15

215:4 226:17

234:20

methods 191:6

205:13

metric 21:10,15,19

32:8 33:6,9 36:11

36:16 37:2,4

107:21,22 108:7

108:16,22 109:3

109:10,15 110:3,5

110:19 111:16,18

112:15,22 113:15

114:10 115:18

116:1,3 124:8

MIA 255:15

mic 10:17

microphone 4:17

95:10 137:12

mics 5:21 10:7

middle 52:16 53:9

54:4 151:9 162:13

163:5

midmorning 8:1

midnight 67:5

mid-afternoon 9:1

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mid-range 172:16

Mike 2:1 6:18 21:2

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45:19,21 63:1,2

65:21 100:4,6

106:8 112:19

121:18,19 126:2

135:5 157:2,3

162:3,4 167:16

179:5,6 189:15

201:6,7 248:6

251:20,21 266:4

Mike's 255:12

Mimi 1:20 7:4 33:4

33:5 34:9 37:22

46:7 50:9 57:20

87:6 101:20 107:4

107:5 114:7,8

115:20 120:16

135:21 145:15

146:13 147:13

149:20 154:1

156:10 160:14

177:7 178:22

206:2 215:15,16

231:1 244:3,4

mind 30:14 54:13

55:20 72:15

162:18 200:10

208:18 209:1

mine 98:5 208:18

mines 98:4 208:15

minimally 148:14

163:15

minimally-compl...

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minimum 39:7

51:14 52:12 57:13

59:11 87:3,4,8,10

124:15 154:4

mini-bipin 182:4

minor 55:14

103:12

minus 224:15

237:18

minute 132:13

168:1,8

minutes 223:3,9

misleading 217:17

missed 163:13

248:8

missing 84:12

85:18 101:16

144:19 145:1

211:5

misspoke 132:5

mistake 142:11,13

145:17,19 172:1

mistaken 185:22

mitigate 131:7

mix 234:11

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148:22 149:1

152:4,6 159:15

161:10 162:15,19

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229:9 236:17

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253:15,17 254:5

256:1,2

professional 55:1

77:6

professor 55:2

profile 249:5

profit 254:19

Program 18:7

programs 218:10

245:9

progress 116:3

138:13

project 2:1 7:3

206:15 218:15

242:11 243:3

projected 20:1

129:16 159:7,10

214:9 225:19

236:15

projecting 242:12

projection 74:3

129:10

projections 72:21

73:4,20 74:1 77:5

77:16 172:17,17

210:10 226:3

228:2 242:7

projects 90:17 91:3

promised 68:13

proper 23:10

proposal 23:8

39:10 52:9 61:13

87:10 122:16

137:2

proposals 70:22

propose 51:17

154:22

proposed 1:5 7:22

15:19 16:1,4,11

24:8 25:10 29:1

32:1 39:5,11

40:19 60:8 61:1

73:7 75:10 83:2

84:3 104:20 110:3

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proprietary 190:21

203:13,21 204:3

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pros 189:18

prototype 116:22

180:22

prove 43:18

proven 181:13

proverbial 78:6

provide 16:7 17:19

25:1 26:15 27:13

28:16 55:6 56:14

65:8 68:13,22

77:17,18 117:21

118:17 157:5

220:3 245:17

provided 16:19

25:8 39:20 49:19

118:19 257:12

provides 24:15

25:15 26:19 41:1

66:22 119:3

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provision 38:11

provisions 45:4

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public 1:5,15 3:4

4:10 12:11 15:16

15:18 90:1 93:13

103:22 157:19

204:15 212:6

261:11

publication 14:4,21

31:17 86:2

publicly 217:10

249:7

publish 19:21 36:9

89:16,18 259:9,12

261:5,10

published 13:1,9

14:9,11,16 16:22

17:3 19:20 31:19

33:13 89:6,16,21

93:12 100:1 188:6

215:19 260:16,18

publishes 188:16

258:18

pull 45:9 95:9

pumps 236:10

purchase 81:15,17

82:13 189:1

224:21,22 226:13

226:15 229:7,9

231:18 233:12

234:1

purchases 244:11

244:12 253:17

purchasing 232:9

244:9

pure 110:7

purpose 15:16,18

43:17 87:22

109:15 116:12

156:8,13 212:9

234:8 248:10

purposes 94:2

151:22 239:4

pursue 69:11

pursued 34:8

pursuing 108:21

put 11:16 15:1

21:20 66:20 97:2

131:19 186:22

212:5 213:18

229:11 230:2

239:1 252:7

putting 59:11

128:16

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-...

4:1

p.m 138:18,22

223:9 268:18

Q

qualitative 251:13

251:17 255:14

qualitatively

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quality 22:20 37:19

70:21 79:15

quantified 108:12

quantifies 28:12

quantitative 247:6

quantitatively

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quantity 118:19

191:13

question 10:16

17:6 21:5 29:6,20

37:13 45:20 49:22

56:11 58:20 59:6

60:5 65:7 87:2,7

104:9 112:20

115:2 120:15

121:22 134:21

141:22 142:9

143:2,4,6 147:4

149:10,16 150:9

151:6 178:11

215:11 220:3

232:7 235:15

244:1 248:6

250:12 251:2,4

259:18,19 264:2

265:14 266:6

questionnaire

249:10

questions 9:15 11:9

29:6 31:5 60:18

67:10 191:16

262:16 268:6,11

QUESTIONS/DI...

3:16

queued 227:16

queuing 9:22

quick 13:6 131:16

178:10 199:6

223:2 262:5

quickly 68:4 127:5

170:18,19 219:18

267:14

quit 217:22

quite 42:20 64:14

65:13 142:10

187:10 206:1

233:3 242:6

261:20 267:2

quoted 106:12

171:7 220:13

239:13,19

quotes 81:4

R

R 25:5 26:5 31:16

racheting 258:14

rack 62:8,12

racks 62:6

radiation 127:14

raise 9:10 16:8

68:15 130:20

263:19 265:8

267:20

raised 105:14

255:14

raising 226:12

267:3

ram 192:12

ramp 99:2

range 57:1 129:7

136:5 140:13

151:7,8,9,10,12

171:6 196:8

198:10 215:1

246:16

ranges 205:4,6

rank 52:16

rare 72:4,7,14

90:20 96:3,7

97:22 98:13

100:12,15 103:3

103:19 106:20

127:7,16,18,20

128:6,8,10,12

131:8 168:21,22

169:19 170:3

193:6 205:22

206:5,5,18,19

207:9,9 209:14,21

243:10

rate 43:12 52:19,22

53:8 226:5,8,10

231:12,21 233:21

237:13 238:4,6,17

238:21 239:22

240:1 241:10

rated 39:7,20 40:3

40:9,11,20 42:4

42:17 47:6 52:1

91:2 92:17,19

126:8 132:18

148:5 149:17,22

150:2,4,19,20,22

151:15 154:19

157:5,13 158:9

178:14,17 187:16

rates 227:11 229:3

237:22 240:13

rating 132:11

212:14 235:9

ratings 122:13

158:22 181:17

rationale 147:11

ratios 232:8

raw 99:8

RDC 141:22

reach 55:7 193:18

reached 65:2

reaction 83:11

read 68:20 215:22

216:3 252:12

reading 30:1 68:21

reads 49:11

ready 67:7 103:20

115:1 169:15

182:1

real 157:14 160:11

181:14 185:17

205:19 226:22

234:4 238:21

262:20 267:14

realize 82:5

really 21:7 23:10

43:9 59:18 60:11

64:3 65:7 68:19

84:7 85:3,11,16

85:18 99:5,20

131:9 138:12

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realm 211:21

reason 30:20 42:7

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reasoning 184:1

reasons 196:16

261:1

rebound 237:13

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rebuttal 74:4

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receive 90:1 128:5

received 7:16 86:22

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recognize 70:10

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recognizing 78:13

recommend 44:8

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recommendation

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recommended

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record 9:19 68:7,8

138:17,18 139:2,9

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144:9 148:17,19

158:19 168:9

187:3 190:6 192:4

199:2 212:6

223:11,15 247:19

267:10 268:11,17

recoverable 128:1

RECS 213:6

214:10

red 136:20 137:1

redact 157:19

redeposits 42:1

redesign 99:7

188:10 210:14

redesigned 96:17

96:18

reduce 20:8

reduced 25:20 26:1

29:14 130:13

131:2 134:3,4

159:8 174:9 182:7

182:10,16,19

183:1 192:7,10

reducing 183:19

reduction 65:1

72:17 146:16

188:14 198:7,9,14

198:15 200:22

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reevaluating

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refer 74:6 89:8

reference 18:20

26:11 27:1 31:13

39:15 126:7

209:16 216:12

221:5 228:14,16

referenced 24:20

24:22 31:15 39:22

60:9 219:8 239:15

references 20:16

24:13 25:3,13

239:19

referred 108:4

219:5

referring 63:5

164:22

refers 87:7

refined 216:17

reflective 23:20

reflector 1:7 15:22

17:18 18:10,18

80:18 82:12 88:22

88:22 89:1,2 91:6

93:1 94:1 97:10

97:12 105:6,8,10

109:17,20 112:2,4

113:15 124:12

136:16 186:13

188:15 189:6,11

190:21 217:20

236:2

reflectors 109:2

112:11 215:20

243:14

refueled 242:3

regarding 12:11

40:17 54:10 61:13

61:18 69:3,15

70:5 96:14 97:7

108:21 128:4

131:16 193:1

210:2 221:1

224:19 264:3

regardless 126:7

132:15 153:14

165:13 190:11

regards 35:10

49:15 74:4 76:8

regenerative 41:22

47:4

region 205:11

Register 13:2,10,18

14:10,12,19,21

37:16 80:20 105:2

258:19 259:13

264:13

regs 38:20

regular 40:22

167:13 181:14

regulation 26:22

28:4 69:12 75:11

78:2 263:1

regulations 40:1

93:8 131:6 255:19

256:1,4

regulator 62:9,13

regulatory 5:17

18:4 74:18 78:5

88:6,8 203:14

248:17,20 255:16

257:9

related 8:7 12:9

14:21 15:5 22:7

23:13 179:10

197:17 203:6

209:21

relating 80:12

relations 98:12

relationship 128:11

139:17 206:8

relative 47:10

65:11 163:19

relevant 108:19

241:2

Reliability 53:3

reliable 117:3

relooked 130:21

remain 38:17 117:7

remaining 87:12

224:9

remarks 3:16 4:13

8:9,9,13 9:11 12:1

12:2,7 68:14

98:22

remember 106:20

146:15 199:22

220:17

remembering

188:19

reminds 115:21

remiss 11:7

remove 79:13

126:6 230:1

removed 133:18

removing 133:21

renewables 228:12

renewals 242:4

renewed 49:1

renovation 224:1

244:16

rep 210:18

repeat 49:21

repeated 62:21

replace 81:21 82:5

109:16 112:6

161:3 185:4

217:21

replaced 213:16

215:6 242:4

replacement 97:15

155:21 160:21

185:11 189:5,6

224:1 233:19

245:13

replacements

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155:16 165:16

173:8 185:3,6

replacing 230:4,6

replying 96:20

report 46:12 58:6

61:5,10 151:21

207:1 224:16

reported 147:20

148:2,6 151:16

157:6,12,16

174:18

reporting 45:8

55:22 56:6,9 75:8

152:8

reports 148:7

174:17 239:14

represent 52:17

77:5 152:22

191:17 251:11,14

representations

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representative

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141:8,16 142:14

144:6 159:15

160:6 197:22

representativeness

20:8

representatives

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requests 13:7,9

20:19 28:22 32:3

61:13 117:15

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246:21

require 26:10 27:4

27:22 36:16 42:10

49:7 51:14 57:13

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required 19:1 20:4

45:7 51:3,21 60:1

60:3 63:22 87:4

132:17 143:13

210:14 242:11

requirement 28:10

44:5 49:20 59:12

requirements 19:4

20:1 27:14 28:17

39:8 56:17 59:22

60:9 61:2,14

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requires 20:6 40:21

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research 37:18

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residences 215:20

216:3

residential 81:6,9

81:13,19 82:9,18

83:9,13 111:5

176:19 212:20

213:5,10 214:17

214:19 215:2,7

216:7,14 218:10

221:2 225:2,8

226:9 236:19,20

237:16 239:6,22

240:18 247:10

residual 224:8

resources 70:12

114:4,20 240:20

respect 82:22

respond 106:4

response 15:7 24:5

27:1 28:12 31:6

43:10 51:9 60:20

64:11 66:11

100:10 127:19

183:5 198:21

203:9 246:22

247:13 256:7,10

responses 238:8

responsible 214:1

responsibly 103:21

responsive 24:3

responsivity 37:14

rest 87:12

restart 79:20

restarted 208:16

restricted 79:18

restrooms 68:1

result 27:12 28:15

60:7 75:6,10

91:21 124:17

173:16 243:17

resulted 206:8

resulting 159:14

results 46:13 118:3

139:18 140:17

218:1 224:13

247:8

resume 67:17 68:4

223:8,15

retail 231:14

retired 242:2

retrofit 72:20

244:18

retrofits 130:9,17

131:11

return 72:21

returning 223:18

returns 263:2

revenue 253:3

review 7:18 8:8

18:3 19:1,12,18

19:19 20:4 32:11

89:11 90:10 95:15

95:19

reviewed 19:5

reviewing 15:16

91:15

revise 14:1 19:2

revised 19:6,8

31:18 123:2,7

revision 19:12,14

49:2 89:7

revisions 137:7

rewards 231:6

reworked 79:13

re-explain 30:15

RFI 22:10 23:3

220:11

rid 78:21 166:4

right 5:14 11:2

33:14 43:12,14,15

45:18 46:9 54:5

68:15 69:4 84:18

85:10 97:13 98:19

100:9 101:17

102:5 103:2

109:17 111:12

113:4 115:8,12

124:14 125:17,22

125:22,22 131:17

136:11 139:11,13

145:8 146:5

148:12,20 149:2

151:4 152:11

155:4,12 158:20

168:6,10,13,18

180:1 185:21

188:19 190:11

192:18 196:8

199:1,20 202:11

206:13 207:7,15

207:17,17 210:10

230:7,8 233:6,8

244:17,17 246:14

254:20 256:21

260:22 261:5

266:18 267:3

right-hand 267:21

rise 172:18

rising 72:16,18

243:5

road 95:2 154:7

191:10 212:1

ROIs 243:20 245:7

role 214:14,15

Ron 50:19

Ronald 50:16,17

room 1:12 7:17

67:17,17 84:22

138:10 176:16

227:10 254:13

root 26:21

Rosenstock 2:2

6:12,12 13:4,5,5

14:5 36:6,6 42:13

42:14,14 59:8,9,9

80:6,7,7 93:18,19

93:19 110:1,2,2

129:1,1 134:10,11

134:12,19 154:2,3

154:3 155:2

159:18,19,19

164:1,2 166:17,18

166:18 175:12,13

175:13 177:11,11

177:20 178:7,19

183:15,15 184:11

194:21,22,22

197:6 199:5,6,16

200:2 203:17,17

213:2,3,3 227:9

227:17 230:11,15

231:3,3,11 235:17

235:17 238:14,15

238:15 239:16

241:5,5,18 254:1

254:2,2,16,20

255:6 257:17,18

257:18 258:22,22

259:9 260:13

261:2,6,9 264:10

264:10,15,20

267:13,19 268:2,5

rough 92:21

round 132:7

186:18 252:1

rounding 56:20

RS 225:9

rule 18:14,15 19:14

19:21 33:18 36:9

36:14,15 37:8

70:9,16,18 71:5

71:10 72:2 73:21

74:10 78:22 80:12

80:16 81:15 86:12

86:15,17 89:6,9

89:19,21 90:12

93:4 99:19 100:17

101:12 104:5,20

108:2 116:4 119:9

119:11 124:3,15

125:5 126:21

127:17 129:15

136:19 141:9

143:12 146:14

147:7,9 154:4

159:5,7 166:19

167:4 174:7,11,21

175:4,9 180:20

182:7,10 183:9,12

186:11 188:5

190:7 198:3 199:1

205:1 234:21

236:10 243:6,12

258:2,6,10,12,19

258:19 260:16

261:4,8,12

rulemaking 1:5

7:22 16:4,12

19:11,14,18 23:10

33:7,8,13,21

54:14 69:19 70:8

70:11,14 71:3

72:13 73:2 74:9

74:22 75:18 77:1

78:10,17 79:5,21

80:11,16 81:2

83:7 84:18 85:20

86:12 88:5,14

89:10 91:17 92:2
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120:22 122:4,17

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133:22 135:11,19

136:22 143:21

145:20 147:15

152:19 154:21

155:1,20 157:5,22

175:5 177:18

179:22 180:5,14

181:3,9,11 184:9

184:14 185:2

187:15 188:1

197:2 208:1

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rulemakings 16:6

54:12 74:17 94:4

94:7 101:3 102:22

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rules 78:21 102:21

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ruling 78:7

run 62:10,14 136:2

running 35:4

R&D 75:22 114:1

131:19

S

sacrificed 189:3

Safe 268:16

safety 97:8 98:3

101:21,22 117:6

192:6 196:16

sake 98:2

sale 58:20 245:16

sales 75:9 79:10

205:11 225:1

243:4,7 244:6

252:21 253:2

sample 39:12 40:7

40:10,14 51:12,17

52:3 87:4,8,12

196:20 216:19

samples 52:16

53:10 87:11

181:11

sampling 46:10,15

58:4 60:8 61:10

San 6:22

satisfy 77:13 91:11

save 48:1 99:5

220:15 233:7

239:1

saving 130:13

238:10 262:20

savings 73:20

76:22 77:19 81:7

91:21 96:9 99:3

103:9 131:12

134:5 173:16

212:11 215:8

218:17 219:11

220:21 222:9

224:14 234:15

235:12 237:7,18

238:7,7

saw 71:10 165:1,20

saying 47:1 50:12

53:15,18 57:12

64:1 146:18

151:13 153:18

167:2 168:1 169:6

170:12 180:13

193:17 217:18

220:13 233:9,10

233:21 266:18

says 12:20 36:8

56:3 82:13 104:14

154:4,11 177:14

179:17 213:19

231:4 252:12

scalable 195:17

196:1

scale 140:16 145:21

195:8 211:12

254:8

scaling 41:14 42:9

145:6 146:3,6

187:21 188:1

195:6 196:21

197:3,18,21 198:2

198:18,20 199:14

200:11,20,21

201:10 203:6,8

scan 193:14 197:10

scattered 207:11

scenario 37:1,7

49:6 228:14 252:7

scenarios 207:5

208:3 223:22

228:15

schedule 36:8

104:18 138:14

258:4

scheduled 137:14

208:16

schedules 260:22

scope 3:9 8:16

76:15 79:17 88:7

91:8 104:12 135:1

253:20

screen 11:10

101:18 116:18

127:1 136:21

137:2 268:1,3

screened 101:9,13

126:22 136:20

screening 3:10 8:17

102:4 116:10,17

117:8 173:11

179:11,14

screw 92:16 104:11

script 68:21

searching 219:3

second 8:11 27:2

28:2 29:19 72:1

89:11 93:2 175:1

200:19 211:10

212:22 224:4

225:12 239:21

241:18 249:14

Secretary 78:20

section 26:4 37:11

70:2 115:4 133:1

250:14

sector 81:9,10,19

82:17,18 83:9,13

213:5,10 214:17

215:2,7,9 217:3

225:6,8 236:20

238:20 239:6

240:18

sectors 77:6 78:16

212:21 216:2

225:2 226:10

237:15,16 240:14

Security 19:1

see 7:19 8:19 31:4,7

33:19 35:1 54:3

56:2 68:5 80:11

83:11 104:19

105:2,9 107:1

120:6 121:11,15

124:20 131:22

153:13 157:17,20

158:2 175:15

177:19 184:19

186:2 191:2

211:17 221:21

229:11 230:3

233:19 235:20

242:19,20 243:5

244:20 246:17,18

247:2 253:6 255:1

260:4 261:19,21

263:22

seeing 84:4 129:6

150:1 243:9

244:21 245:6

246:2 252:20

seeks 61:17

seen 42:16 159:22

160:3,5 172:11

177:2 184:2

185:22 186:17

195:2 197:2

241:22 244:5

segment 68:12

137:18

select 140:9 173:8

sell 149:3 159:8,11

161:2,3

selling 59:4 149:2

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59:22 63:4 67:4

76:21 87:8 109:2

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202:18 264:15,18

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51:2,13 56:9

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62:6,15 63:8,12

63:17 64:2,3 65:2

66:3,8 75:2,8,13

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153:16 161:18

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218:12

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67:3 80:14 124:18

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47:19 51:7 55:16

60:17 65:16 67:9

69:7 80:3,4,8 86:4

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100:3 104:15

105:3 111:7,9

114:6 116:5

117:22 120:11,12

126:12 130:3

139:12 145:3

152:15 158:13

163:11 164:21

169:11 173:2

177:3,4 178:21

179:3 193:11

197:6 200:4

209:17 215:9

227:17 228:20,21

237:2 238:12

242:7,17 250:8

255:6 263:7 264:7

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46:18 65:4 115:13

118:2 134:19

135:4 153:22

169:12,13 170:21

173:4 184:11

194:19 231:1

237:3 265:2,20,21

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theoretical 185:14

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247:7

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they'd 34:19

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34:2 44:2,7 63:22

84:12 103:16

115:15 177:21

181:3,20 187:19

193:2,2 208:22

217:3,14 228:13

230:16 233:14

254:21 256:16

things 5:4,4 15:1

45:10 65:10 81:12

110:12,16 146:12

169:14 195:13

199:17 207:19

208:2 211:2

231:22 238:16

245:18 265:16

267:20 268:12

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17:11 21:11,18

23:5 38:5 45:2,3

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57:19,20 58:20

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67:6,21 79:2

80:10 83:6,7

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86:15,16 87:2,7

87:10 94:7 95:14

95:20 100:19

101:4,10,18 102:9

104:19 105:4

106:12 107:1

110:4,21 111:11

116:1 120:6,21

126:3,5 127:4

138:4 139:2

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49 47:22

5

5 37:17 38:15 80:22

5.9 190:5,8 196:12

196:13 199:8,18

5:00 9:12

50 32:15 40:6 52:2

52:22 53:8 159:10

214:2

500 14:15

51.7 184:2,9 185:1

186:3

52 185:22

55 159:12 184:1

57 183:17

6

6 198:10

6,000 42:17

6.4 187:11 196:13

199:8,18

6.5 84:4 145:10

177:10 198:7

6.6 84:4 145:10

177:10

6.8 196:8 199:12

6.9 190:1

60 144:10 184:3,9

185:2,10 214:2
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Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 305

61 183:17

62.95(i)(3) 71:2

64 3:6 82:14

65 161:3

66 159:12 160:1,20

184:3 185:9

68 3:7

7

7.4 199:12

70 129:8 214:2

75 17:1 83:22

159:11 185:4

77 122:8

8

8 192:22

8.5 237:15 240:17

80 84:1

800 90:19

861 225:22

87 164:6

88 3:10

89 83:22 84:5 148:8

149:21 154:6,11

9

9 24:19 26:18

9:00 1:13

9:05 4:2

90 159:12 160:22

161:2,4 185:4

207:7

900 222:7

91.9 142:17

92 70:13 71:2

142:17 147:6

92.3 84:7,8 147:8

148:4 150:8 154:9

154:13

93 84:5,8

97 84:2,9 176:14

98 84:9 176:14
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

306

Test Procedures Proposed Rulemaking

Fluorescent and Incandescent Lamps

US DOE

10-04-11

Washington, DC