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29–369 2018

THE USE OF OFFICIAL TIME FOR UNION ACTIVITIES AT THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS 

JOINT HEARING 

OF THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY (EO) 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

AND THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT & GOVERNMENT 

REFORM 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 16, 2017 

Serial No. 115–3 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 

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(II) 

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

DAVID P. ROE, Tennessee, Chairman 

GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida, Vice-Chairman 

MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado 

BRAD R. WENSTRUP, Ohio 

AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, American 

Samoa 

MIKE BOST, Illinois 

BRUCE POLIQUIN, Maine 

NEAL DUNN, Florida 

JODEY ARRINGTON, Texas 

JOHN RUTHERFORD, Florida 

CLAY HIGGINS, Louisiana 

JACK BERGMAN, Michigan 

JIM BANKS, Indiana 

JENNIFFER GONZALEZ-COLON, Puerto 

Rico 

TIM WALZ, Minnesota, Ranking Member 

MARK TAKANO, California 

JULIA BROWNLEY, California 

ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire 

BETO O’ROURKE, Texas 

KATHLEEN RICE, New York 

J. LUIS CORREA, California 

KILILI SABLAN, Northern Mariana Islands 

ELIZABETH ESTY, Connecticut 

SCOTT PETERS, California 

JON TOWERS, Staff Director 

RAY KELLEY, Democratic Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY 

JODEY ARRINGTON, Texas, Chairman 

GUS BILIRAKIS, Florida 

BRAD WENSTRUP, Ohio 

JOHN RUTHERFORD, Florida 

JIM BANKS, Indiana 

BETO O’ROURKE, Texas, Ranking Member 

MARK TAKANO, California 

LUIS CORREA, California 

KATHLEEN RICE, New York 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT & GOVERNMENT REFORM 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina, Chairman 

JODY HICE, Georgia 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

MARK SANFORD, South Carolina 

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

DENNIS ROSS, Florida 

ROD BLUM, Iowa 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia, Ranking 

Member 

CAROLYN MALONEY, New York 

ELEANOR HOLMES-NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

WILLIAM LACY CLAY, Missouri 

BRENDA LAWRENCE, Mississippi 

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN, New Jersey 

Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public hearing records 

of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs are also published in electronic form. The printed 

hearing record remains the official version. Because electronic submissions are used to 

prepare both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process of converting 

between various electronic formats may introduce unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the current publication process and should diminish as the process 

is further refined. 

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C O N T E N T S 

Thursday, February 16, 2017 

Page 

The Use Of Official Time For Union Activities At The Department Of Veterans Affairs ......................................................................................................... 1 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Honorable Mark Meadows, Chairman,Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, the Subcommittee on Government Operations, ......................... 1 

Honorable Gerald E. Connolly, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on 

Government Operations ....................................................................................... 2 

Honorable Jodey Arrington, Chairman Subcommittee on economic Opportunity, Committee on Veterans’ Affairs ............................................................. 4 

Honorable Beto O’Rourke, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity, Committee on Veterans’ Affairs ........................................ 6 

Honorable Tim Walz, Ranking Member, Full Committee on Veterans’ Affairs . 7 

WITNESSES 

Ms. Cindy Brown Barnes, Director, Education, Workforce and Income Security , U.S. Government Accountability Office .................................................... 8 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 41 

Ms. Kimberly Perkins McLeod, Acting Executive Director, Labor Management 

Relations, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs ............................................... 9 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 46 

Mr. J. David Cox, Sr., National President, American Federation of Government Employees, AFL-CIO .................................................................................. 11 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 47 

Mr. Trey Kovacs, Policy Analyst, Competitive Enterprise Institute ................... 12 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 52 

STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD 

Cindy Brown Barnes’ response to a question posed by Representative 

O’Rourke ............................................................................................................... 57 

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THE USE OF OFFICIAL TIME FOR UNION ACTIVITIES AT THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS 

Thursday, February 16, 2017 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT

AND INVESTIGATIONS, 

Washington, D.C. 

The Subcommittees met, pursuant to notice, at 12:37 p.m., in 

Room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Mark Meadows 

[Chairman of the Subcommittee on Government Operations] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Meadows, Arrington, Hice, Bilirakis, 

Jordan, Wenstrup, Rutherford, Massie, Banks, DeSantis, Ross, 

Blum, Roe, Chaffetz, Connolly, O’Rourke, Takano, Correa, Clay, 

Rice, Watson Coleman, and Walz. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF MEADOWS 

Mr. MEADOWS. The Committee on Oversight and Government 

Reform, the Subcommittee on Government Operations, and the 

Committee on Veterans’ Affairs, Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity will come to order, and without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. 

Good afternoon, and today’s hearing will allow us the opportunity 

to learn more about the official time used at the Department of 

Veterans Affairs. And for those of you who may not know what official time is, what a Federal employee actually does to use official 

time and representational work on behalf of the labor unions during work hours, even if that work is unrelated to their regular assigned duties. 

The official time statute broadly lays out those union activities 

that are reasonable, necessary, and in the public interest that are 

permissible. And the last time OPM disclosed data on official time 

use in 2012, it revealed that VA employees comprised almost onethird of the 3.4 million hours of official time performed by Federal 

employees’ government wide. 

Specifically, VA employees performed 1,086,257 hours of official 

time, and that’s the most of any agency. OPM also found that official time is on the rise, increasing by a half million hours between 

2008 and 2012. Between fiscal year 2014 and fiscal year 2015, 

1,942 VA employees were engaged in some degree of official time. 

And in fact, in fiscal year 2014, 345 VA employees had 100 percent 

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2 

of their time was official time, so they were essentially full-time on 

official time. That means that 345 VA employees spent all of their 

time engaged on union activities. 

In fiscal year 2015, that was 343 VA employees that had 100 percent of their time engaged in official time activities. Data provided 

by the VA to the Committee reveals that three of the top five positions with full or 100 percent official time were nurses. The data 

we have is only a small window into how much time Federal employees spend on official time activities, but because agencies are 

not required by law to annually report the amount of time their 

employees perform, it makes it very difficult, making the recent 

audit of the VA done by GAO, it found that it could not accurately 

track the amount of time employees spend on official time at the 

VA agency wide. 

With the VA taking up one-third of the official time for the entire 

Federal Government, it’s important that it employs accurate methods to calculate and records to show how much time we are spending on those union activities. Now, I look forward to hearing from 

both the GAO and the VA to see what steps can be taken to make 

sure that not only we accurately reflect that but what steps have 

been taken and can be taken to accurately track official time. 

I want to be clear about one thing. This is not about whether 

Federal employees should or should not participate in official time. 

We recognize, I recognize the importance of that particular activity. 

Today’s hearing is really about what is reasonable and what is in 

the best interest of the taxpayers who foot the bill for official time. 

With the VA backlog in the tens of thousands, it’s reasonable for 

medical professionals’—is it reasonable for medical professionals to 

spend 100 percent of their days on VA union activities? 

And so with that, we continue to hear VA understaffed situations 

in the midst of an access crisis. Is it responsible for doctors, nurses, 

and other employees providing direct patient care to be 100 percent 

official time or maybe even 75 or 50 percent? 

Our Nation’s veterans deserve to have an accountable VA. Understanding how much time VA employees are spending on union 

activities is an important part towards granting the veterans the 

access to proper care they deserve, need, and have earned. 

And so with that, I now recognize the Ranking Member of the 

Subcommittee on Government Operations, my good friend from 

Virginia, Mr. Connolly. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CONNOLLY 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Thank you so much, Mr. Meadows, and thanks 

for holding this hearing on the use of official time and the ability 

of unions to protect the whistleblowers who help prevent waste, 

fraud, and abuse in the Federal Government. 

Our Committees have a longstanding commitment to whistleblowers, but sometimes I think some of my colleagues forget that 

whistleblowers are Federal employees. Attacks on Federal employees can do harm to whistleblowers. That may suit our new President who has also muzzled whistleblowers temporarily at some 

agencies, but I feel it is detrimental to the positive influence whistleblowers have on Federal operations. 

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For this reason, I join the chairman of this Subcommittee in 

sending a letter to all agencies to determine the effects of gag orders on whistleblower protections, and I thank the Chairman for 

joining with me in that effort. 

Today we received a letter from a whistleblower, a Federal employee at the VA, the very agency the Chairman was just talking 

about. Her name is Dr. Michelle Washington. In 2011, Dr. Washington was a psychologist and coordinator of post-traumatic stress 

disorder services for the Veterans’ Affairs facility in Wilmington, 

Delaware. She observed that veterans were facing severe problems 

getting access to mental health services. She subsequently testified 

before the Senate Committee on Veterans’ Affairs to voice her professional concerns with a system not fulfilling its mission. 

Did she get a bonus or a promotion for a job well done? Far from 

it. Her supervisors at the VA retaliated. Her excellent performance 

evaluations suddenly became downgraded. She was relieved of responsibilities helping veterans and was uninvited to planning 

meetings, and her coworkers were pressured not to associate with 

her. This is a video of Dr. Michelle. 

[Video shown.] 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Thank you. The retaliatory actions taken against 

Dr. Washington were illegal. Last week, the Oversight Committee 

strengthened these protections when it unanimously passed a bill 

I co-introduced with Representative Duffy, H.R. 657, the Follow the 

Rules Act, also cosponsored by yourself, Mr. Chairman. It’s not 

enough to pass these laws, however, and pay lip service at occasional hearings. 

These protections have to be enforced. In the workplace, Federal 

employee unions have enforced the whistleblower laws Congress 

passes, and they do it on official time. 

Current law allows unions to stand up for Federal employees facing retaliation, such as Dr. Washington faced in the workplace. Dr. 

Washington’s letter states that official time is, quote, ‘‘absolutely 

necessary to help protect veterans, workers, and whistleblowers,’’ 

and I would ask unanimous consent to enter her letter addressed 

to you, myself, Mr. Chaffetz, Mr. Cummings into the record. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Without objection. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. I thank my friend. 

Dr. Washington explained that AFGE representatives were only 

able to help meet at designated periods of time when they were allowed to use official time. My union representative used official 

time to research OPM regulations as well as write up and file the 

grievances and have 10 meetings with me in attempts to address 

the retaliation, and remember, the broader goal was in order to 

make sure veterans were served. 

Some of my colleagues want to eliminate the ability of Federal 

employees to perform union representational duties on official time. 

Dr. Washington’s experience tells us what the consequences of that 

policy could be. She wrote, quote, ‘‘If official time had not been 

available to the AFGE representatives, we may not have been able 

to defend my case. It would have set a precedent that management 

can retaliate without consequence.’’ 

I’m certain we don’t intend to disadvantage whistleblowers, I 

know we’re committed to them, but the effect of their concerted atLeonard.horne on VACREP0180 with DISTILLER

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tacks on unions and civil service protections sometimes would be 

to strip whistleblowers of their advocates in the workplace, their 

union. 

And I hope Mr. Chairman will proceed with great caution on this 

subject, and I thank him for holding the hearing. I yield back. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I thank the gentleman. The gentleman from Virginia knows very well that whistleblower protection and the rights 

of Federal employees is something that may not normally be a bipartisan issue but with this Chairman certainly is, and I will continue to remain vigilant as we look to protect that. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. And for the record, I know that, and I reaffirm 

that. You’re absolutely right. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I thank the gentleman. The chair recognizes the 

Chairman on the Subcommittee for Economic Opportunity of the 

Committee on Veterans’ Affairs, Mr. Arrington for his opening 

statement. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF ARRINGTON 

Mr. ARRINGTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’d like to also reiterate that I support protections for whistleblowers, and I want to 

note that last year’s Congress enacted one of the strongest whistleblower protection initiatives within the VA in our Nation’s history, 

so I think we stand shoulder to shoulder on that. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thanks to everybody for being here. 

Thank you, panelists. 

This is my first official hearing as Chairman of the VA Committee Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity, and let me say I’m 

very excited to work with my Ranking Member and fellow Texan, 

Congressman O’Rourke. 

And I’m also pleased, obviously, to partner with you, Mr. Chairman, and the other Members on your Committee. 

I believe we can all agree that the mission of the Department of 

Veterans Affairs is to care for those who have borne the battle. 

This is more than a government agency mission. This is a sacred 

honor. This is a sacred responsibility for every VA employee and 

for every American. The men and women who have raised their 

right hand to serve and who have been willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, I think you will agree, deserve nothing but the best 

service and care worthy of their commitment to our country. 

Unfortunately, time and time again situations have come to light 

where the care of our veterans, the care that they were receiving 

didn’t measure up to this standard of excellence. 

Now here we are, almost 3 years later after Phoenix, an agency 

wide wait list scandal where several veterans waiting for months, 

some who died before they could get an appointment with a doctor, 

and yet the problem still persists. Veterans are still waiting too 

long to receive an appointment. 

Veterans and their families are still waiting too long for their 

disability compensation claims to be adjudicated and their appeals 

to be decided upon, 450,000 plus appeals in backlog. In fact, VA’s 

own statistics indicate that there are over 45,000 vacancies within 

the Veterans’ Health Administration, and the claims backlog for 

disability claims has recently increased 33 percent. These statistics 

are absolutely unacceptable, and they are the reality, and in my 

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opinion, the shameful reality of the current state of affairs at the 

VA. 

I want to be clear, the purpose of this hearing is not to completely discredit any use of the official time within VA or even 

across the Federal Government. After all, it is allowed under law. 

We must, however, ask ourselves this question: Are we going to fulfill the mission of the VA and provide excellent service to our veterans, or are we going to perpetuate what I believe appears to be 

a broken bureaucracy and a culture of unaccountability? 

I’m grateful to the Government Accountability Office for taking 

this large task of looking at the use of official time at the VA and 

how the Department is tracking its use, as well as space at facilities used for union activities. 

I’m very troubled, Mr. Chairman, by their findings, that the VA 

is not accurately or sufficiently tracking how much time employees 

are using official time and that the data that we do have from the 

VA is unreliable at best. This concerns me on a number of levels. 

Are people taking advantage of the system? I would conclude 

that most likely they are, because whether intentional or not, without an accountability system, there is no consistent means to track 

official time even if you wanted to, and as the old saying goes, you 

can’t manage what you can’t measure. 

This issue brings me to something that concerns me even more. 

Not only are some individuals spending 100 percent of their working days doing union activities while receiving their taxpayer-funded salaries, but some individuals are receiving their taxpayer-funded salaries and are not even being appropriately tracked for what 

they are doing with the time that they are not directly serving our 

veterans or just doing the jobs that they were hired to do. 

As someone who has overseen multitudes of different staffs 

throughout my career, I can’t fathom an instance where I would be 

paying someone a taxpayer-funded salary to do a job that I can’t 

even account for at the end of the day. And what’s even more troubling is that in the recent GAO report, this is not the first discovery. This is not the first time this has been brought to light. 

There have been other studies by GAO, 1979, 1981, 1996, recommending that time spent on union activities needs to be better 

tracked. 

Here we are again, 2017, still having the same conversation and 

GAO is still making the same recommendations. This is insane. I 

understand both sides of the aisle aren’t going to always agree on 

to what extent unions should be involved or the power that they 

should hold in the Federal Government, but I know, I know that 

we all agree that the Department of Veterans Affairs should place 

the needs of our veterans above all else. And I’m very concerned 

that in this current environment, this isn’t the case. 

We have doctors, nurses, medical assistants, therapists, pharmacists, claims raters, senior raters, and so on and so on serving 

on official time, many 100 percent of their time, some of them making over six figures. This means we have hundreds, if not thousands of VA employees spending part and sometimes all their 

working days serving the union instead of directly serving our veterans. Again, doing the job they were hired to do. 

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I understand that union representation—that union representatives are supposed to serve the employees of the VA facility, whether it is through grievances or management relations, which in turn, 

one could argue, serves the overall facility’s function, but you would 

be hard pressed to convince me or any reasonable person that a 

physician making over $200,000 a year, paid for by taxpayers, is 

best utilized sitting in an office dealing with union grievances for 

100 percent of their working day rather than standing by the bedside of a veteran caring for that veteran. 

The standard for official time is to use it on, quote, ‘‘representational work,’’ work that is, quote, ‘‘reasonable, necessary, and in the 

public’s interest.’’ I don’t believe the average American would see 

this as reasonable. I don’t believe the average American would see 

this as necessary, and I don’t believe they would see it as in their 

best interest. In fact, I believe the average American would be outraged. 

I came to Congress, as I think most of my colleagues did, to 

make a difference, to root out the real problems facing our country, 

find real solutions. And while this hearing today is not going to 

completely resolve all the issues related to official time in union activities on the taxpayer’s dime, I think this discussion is necessary 

and pertinent, and we continue to reform and fix the VA as a 

whole. 

I thank the witnesses for being here. I look forward to your testimony, and thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I thank the gentleman from Texas. The chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas, the Ranking Member, Mr. 

O’Rourke. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF O’ROURKE 

Mr. O’ROURKE. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you and the 

Ranking Member of the Government Reform Subcommittee and my 

Chairman of the Economic Opportunity Subcommittee of the Veterans’ Affairs Committee for putting this hearing together, to the 

witnesses who have made available to us, and our government and 

the veterans that we serve, their time and testimony, experience, 

and expertise today. I’m looking forward to learning from you. 

Mr. Chairman, just briefly. On Friday, I had the opportunity to 

visit the Veterans’ Affairs Medical Center in El Paso, Texas. There 

was a full lobby of volunteers greeting veterans, veterans coming 

in for their appointments, veterans leaving, and the staff who serve 

them. It underscored how important our mission is here on these 

Committees, the VA’s mission to our veterans, and also showed 

some of what is working that we need to capitalize on. 

The veterans that I spoke to, and we know they are not shy 

about telling us when things are not working, to a person if they 

had seen by a doctor or provider said that they had received excellent timely care. The staff that I had a chance to meet, shake their 

hands, asked them how they were doing, upbeat, smiling, wanting 

to serve. But I’m also mindful of the fact that too many veterans 

in El Paso and every community in this country are unable to get 

an appointment, whether it’s mental health care or primary care 

or specialty care appointment, where they’re waiting too long on a 

claim to the Veterans’ Benefits Administration or an appeal to that 

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claim whose wait time is not measured in months but today in 

years. So we have some problems. 

I want to ensure that whatever we do capitalizes on the 

strengths that we have and addresses those weaknesses and corrects them. In both cases, that would be dependent on making the 

most of the employees that we have at the VA. They are the ones 

who in many cases are veterans themselves, in every case are represented by the unions at the VA, and I would argue, are fundamental to the solutions that we’re looking for. 

We have some examples in this GAO report of where management and employees agree that but for the work of these unions, 

we would not be able to train appropriately, we would not be able 

to protect and facilitate whistleblowing, and we would not be able 

to innovate. I call everyone’s attention to page 20 of the report 

where GAO quotes a manager who said at a mental health care 

program at a VA facility in this country, it was the employees who 

were able to suggest a substance abuse program at a time of opioid 

crisis in this country, and it was through the union that they ensured that we had the appropriate training and perspective on this 

program so that it would be a success. 

I want to make sure that we’re understanding where we have opportunities. I think, however, we all agree on the fundamental 

problem here. VA is not tracking time, and I agree with everyone 

here that’s a problem. It needs to be fixed. It’s an issue of leadership, of commitment, and accountability. 

I don’t want to lose what’s working at the VA, and I want to do 

everything possible to strengthen the ability of every employee at 

the VA to deliver excellent care and service. 

Lastly, Mr. Chairman, I’d be remiss without noting the 100 to 0 

confirmation of the new Secretary of the VA, Dr. David Shulkin, a 

person who I know is committed to addressing these issues who 

will ensure that we track that time and who will make the most 

of the ability of those employees, the employees we have yet to hire 

to deliver on our commitment to this country’s veterans. With that, 

I yield back. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I thank the gentleman from Texas. The chair recognizes the Ranking Member of the Full Committee, the gentleman, the avid runner from Minnesota, Mr. Walz for his opening 

remarks. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF WALZ 

Mr. WALZ. I thank the Chairman, and I just wanted to thank 

both Subcommittees on this. I’ll waive my opening statement. Let’s 

hear from the witnesses. I appreciate the opening statements from 

everyone. Thank you. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I thank the gentleman, and I would like to welcome all of you. I will hold the record open for five legislative days 

for any Member who would like to submit a written statement. 

We’ll now recognize our panel of witnesses, and we’re pleased to 

welcome Ms. Cindy Barnes, the director of Education, Workforce, 

and Income Security at the U.S. Government Accountability Office. 

Welcome, Ms. Barnes. 

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Ms. Kim McLeod, the acting executive director of labor management relations at the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. Welcome, Ms. McLeod. 

Mr. David Cox, a fellow North Carolinian, the national president 

of the American Federation of Government Workers. Welcome, Mr. 

Cox. 

And Mr. Trey Kovacs, the policy analyst at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. 

And pursuant to Committee rules, all witnesses will be sworn in 

before they testify, so if you would please rise and raise your right 

hand. 

[Witnesses sworn.] 

Mr. MEADOWS. Let the record reflect that all witnesses answered 

in the affirmative. You can be seated. 

In order to allow time for discussion, we would appreciate if you 

would limit your oral testimony to 5 minutes, but your entire written testimony will be made part of the record. 

And so we will recognize you, Ms. Barnes, for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF CINDY BARNES 

Ms. BARNES. Chairman Arrington and Meadows, Ranking Members O’Rourke and Connolly, and Members of the Subcommittees, 

I am pleased to be here today to discuss GAO’s January 2017 report on Union’s Use of Official Time and Space at the VA. Federal 

employees, by law, are able to use official time to perform certain 

union activities instead of their regular work. 

According to the VA, almost 290,000 bargaining unit employees 

across the agency spent over a million hours on official time during 

fiscal year 2015. My remarks will cover, one, how VA tracks official 

time; two, the amount of designated space used for union activities 

at selected facilities; and three, the views of VA managers and 

union officials on the benefits and challenges of employees using official time. 

For our report we reviewed VA’s official time data for fiscal years 

2014 and 2015, and this was agency wide data. We also analyzed 

information on designated space at five VA facilities. We interviewed groups of VA managers and union officials at the five facilities, and we selected the facilities based on the number of bargaining unit employees and also across VA administrations. 

The bottom line is that we weren’t able to determine the amount 

of official time used by VA employees and the purposes for which 

it was used because VA doesn’t have a standard way for facilities 

to record and calculate official time. This situation exists because 

of three primary reasons. 

First, in terms of recording official time, VA uses two, time and 

attendance systems across the agency that capture information on 

official time differently. VA’s new system, the VA Time and Attendance System, or VATAS, has specific codes to record official time, 

but the older system doesn’t. We found that three of the selected 

facilities didn’t record official time in either of these systems, the 

old or the new one. 

Second, we found that VA hasn’t provided consistent training 

and guidance on recording official time in VATAS. Timekeepers 

and other officials that we talked to at three selected facilities that 

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had actually transitioned to the new system were not using the 

codes to record official time because they weren’t aware of them. 

We recommended that VA increase its efforts to provide consistent 

training and guidance on recording official time in VATAS. 

Third, we also found that VA doesn’t provide a consistent way for 

its facilities to calculate and report the amount of official time used 

agency wide. To provide agency wide official time data to OPM, VA 

uses yet another system, and this is a labor management relations, 

or LMR system, that is separate and distinct from VA’s two, time 

and attendance systems. VA allows its facilities to use written 

records, estimates, samples, surveys, or any combination of these 

methods to calculate the amount of official time hours used. 

We recommended that VA encourage facilities to rely on time 

and attendance records for calculating official time prior to the 

agency wide implementation of VATAS. We also recommended that 

VA take steps to transition from using the LMR system to VATAS 

to collect and compile agency wide data on official time. VA concurred with all of our recommendations. 

With respect to space, we found that the amount of designated 

space for union activities at selected facilities comprise less than 1 

percent of overall space available. This space was primarily office 

space. 

Finally, we found that at most selected VA facilities, VA managers and union officials we interviewed cited similar benefits of 

employees using official time, such as improving decision-making 

and resolving problems. However, they had differing views on the 

challenges associated with employees’ use of official time, such as 

when and how much official time may be used. 

In conclusion, our work shows that VA does not have reliable information to effectively monitor and manage the amount of official 

time employees use for union activities. 

Thank you. This concludes my statement, and I will be happy to 

respond to any questions you may have. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF CINDY BARNES APPEARS IN THE

APPENDIX]

Mr. MEADOWS. Thank you, Ms. Barnes. And I want to thank you 

at the GAO and obviously your colleagues at GAO. You enjoy bipartisan support, even at times when I would wish you would be more 

partisan. I have not been able to encourage— 

Mr. CONNOLLY. We feel the same way. 

Mr. MEADOWS [continued]. No doubt. I have not—I’ve always 

found your information to be insightful and helpful, and as with 

your testimony here today, we do appreciate not only your testimony but the work of the GAO as a whole. 

Ms. McLeod, you’re recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF KIMBERLY PERKINS MCLEOD 

Ms. MCLEOD. Good afternoon, Chairman Arrington and Meadows, Ranking Members O’Rourke and Connolly, and distinguished 

Members of the Subcommittees. Thank you for the opportunity to 

discuss the progress that the Department of Veterans Affairs is 

making towards accounting for official time to provide the best possible service to our Nation’s veterans. 

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For context purposes, the Federal Service Labor-Management 

Relations statute governs how executive branch agencies treat official time. The statute provides for official time for union representatives to perform certain union activities. Official time is duty time 

during which a bargain unit employee may perform representational activities in lieu of the employee’s management assigned 

work without loss of pay or charged to leave. 

The statute provides official time to negotiate collective bargaining agreements and to participate in proceedings before the 

Federal Labor Relations Authority. In addition, the statute requires management and its unions to negotiate amounts of official 

time, which the parties agree are reasonable, necessary, and in the 

public interest. Official time negotiations are mandatory, apply to 

most Federal agencies, and include provisions relating to the 

amount, allocation, scheduling, and location of official time. 

VA has negotiated varying amounts of official time in both national agreements and local agreements. Many VA facilities have 

local official time agreements and practices specific to their location. Official time arrangements are frequently distinctively local 

and reflect the relationship and history between local management 

and local union officials. 

It should be noted that while management has the right to negotiate the allocation and use of official time by union representatives, in ordinary circumstances, the statute does not give management the right to select which employee serve as union representatives. 

As you’re aware, the recent GAO report regarding VA official 

time use describes how VA has historically not implemented a uniform and standardized official time reporting system. As the GAO 

report notes, VA is now using two timekeeping systems, the Legacy 

system or the enhanced time and attendance system remains in effect at some facilities. Other facilities have implemented VA’s new 

time and attendance system, commonly referred to as VATAS, 

which—okay. I’m sorry. Commonly referred to as VATAS. ETA 

does not have codes for employees and supervisors to record the 

local use of official time. VATAS, however, does have that capability. 

As of September 2016, approximately 50 percent of VA facilities 

and about one-third of VA employees, or 120,000, had transitioned 

to VATAS with its official time reporting capabilities. The full 

VATAS multifacility rollout is scheduled to be completed by July 

2018. 

The GAO report includes three recommendations to improve VA’s 

ability to accurately track employee’s use of official time. VA concurs with GAO’s recommendations. 

VA has updated and expanded timekeeper training on the collection and reporting of official time in its final ongoing VATAS nationwide rollout. Training now includes consistent guidance on the 

proper method of inputting official time codes into VATAS. 

VA is providing updated written instructions to all of its facilities 

seeking to establish and enforce a standardized approach to recording and reporting official time across VA. VA also intends to initiate bargaining with its national unions to come to an agreement 

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with them on a standard approach to have union officials request, 

record, and report their use of official time in VATAS. 

VA’s Office of Human Resources and Administration is preparing 

updated policy guidance to all VA facilities concerning the recording of local official time. For those facilities where VATAS is already operational, timekeepers and supervisors are instructed to 

use VATAS to record the use of official time. 

As VA transitions to a single upgraded timekeeping system, official time use will become more transparent and standardized, 

which will guarantee accurate, timely, and reliable accounting of 

official time used across the agency. Relying on VATAS, VA will be 

able to quickly compile and report official time data to OPM, Congress, and to other government agencies, and will have a substantially enhanced ability to monitor use of official time at individual 

VA facilities. 

This concludes my testimony. I’m happy to answer any questions. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF KIMBERLY PERKINS MCLEOD APPEARS IN THE APPENDIX]

Mr. MEADOWS. Thank you, Ms. McLeod. 

Mr. Cox, you’re recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF J. DAVID COX 

Mr. COX. Chairman Meadows and Arrington, Ranking Members 

O’Rourke and Connolly, and Members of the Committees, thank 

you for the opportunity to testify today. 

It would be great if this hearing were only about the findings of 

the GAO report on VA’s recordkeeping with regard to official time, 

but the very right of Federal employees to form, join, and be represented by their unions seems to be in question. 

However, that question was settled 40 years ago when Congress 

enacted Civil Service Reform Act and stated clearly, and I quote, 

‘‘labor organizations and collective bargaining of the civil service 

are in the public interest.’’ The law goes on to require Federal employee unions to provide a wide range of representational services 

for all employees under a collective bargaining union. 

In order to carry out that these legal obligations, the law provides for, quote, ‘‘official time in the amount the agency and the exclusive representative involved agree to be reasonable and necessary and in the public interest.’’ In the VA, AFGE does far more 

than just represent and negotiate contracts. We also work hand-inhand with management on a daily basis to make the agency run 

better by participating in many forums and initiatives, including 

MyVA that promote the effectiveness and efficiency of the agency 

by helping to improve work processes and patient safety. AFGE 

also assists and supports whistleblowers who come forward to report instances of fraud, waste, and abuse that would not otherwise 

be known. 

The GAO report confirmed, in most cases, management agrees 

that the involvement of the union leads to better decision-making, 

faster resolution of problems, and long-term improvements in labor 

management relationships. All of these positive outcomes provide 

real substantial benefits to veterans through better care, faster 

claims processing, and less waste of precious VA resources. 

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We should bear in mind that while the GAO study did find shortcomings in VA’s recordkeeping for official time, there was not the 

slightest suggestion that union officials withheld any data or information or provided inaccurate information. The findings and recommendations are all aimed at improving the training of timekeepers and standardization of data collection methods. 

We estimate that more than one-third of the VA workforce are 

veterans themselves, but I can tell you from personal experience 

that the entire VA workforce takes tremendous pride in the fact 

that they have been entrusted with a sacred duty of caring for and 

providing benefits to our veterans. 

It is particularly unfortunate when union representatives are 

blamed for VA’s chronic understaffing problems. These representatives, like Cathy Dahl of Pittsburgh VA, are helping veterans but 

telling the truth about Legionnaires disease. These representatives 

like Dr. Michelle Washington of the Wilmington VA are helping the 

veterans by telling the truth about resources for treatment of 

PTSD. 

These representatives, like Pauline Dewinter of Phoenix VA, telling the truth about how management manipulated wait lists, many 

others are coming forward to tell the truth about chronic problems 

with the CHOICE Act, including forcing veterans to accept outside 

care even when they want to be seen by the VA specialist who 

know them best. 

There are roughly 45,000 unfilled positions in the VA, and reducing our ability to perform our representational duties will not even 

fill a small fraction of those jobs but it would hurt the agency’s 

ability to care for veterans. The VA’s recruitment and retention 

problems reflect not only the inadequacy of Federal pay and benefits, especially for new hires, but also the national shortage of primary care clinicians has nothing whatsoever to do with official 

time. 

I’ll leave you with one last thought. So, many try to turn official 

time into some type of scandal, but the fact is that official time is 

the anecdote to scandal. It’s what empowers employees to do their 

job more effectively and provide veterans with better care. Veterans deserve nothing less than the absolute best. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’ll be glad to respond to any questions, and it’s very nice to have someone that has a distinctive drag 

like I have chairing the Committee. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF J. DAVID COX APPEARS IN THE APPENDIX]

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, we don’t need a translator, do we? 

Mr. COX. No, we don’t. 

Mr. MEADOWS. The only one that has a better accent, southern 

accent than I do is the gentleman to my right when he puts it on. 

So Mr. Kovacs, you’re recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT TREY KOVACS 

Mr. KOVACS. Chairman Meadows and Arrington, Ranking Members Connolly and O’Rourke, and distinguished Members of the 

Committees, thank you for holding this hearing and providing me 

the opportunity to discuss official time. 

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Few Americans are aware that each working day Federal employees report for work but do not perform any governmental duties. Instead, they perform work for their Federal employee union, 

a private organization that does not serve a public purpose. It 

serves the interest of its members. 

Taxpayers pay for these employees’ wages, pensions, and health 

care benefits while they are performing union business. Taxpayers 

also pay for their office space, supplies, and travel. For decades, 

Federal employees have been conducting union activities instead of 

delivering the public services they were hired to do. Official time 

is costly, not properly tracked and reported, and can disrupt the delivery of public services, the practices and misuse of public funds, 

because official time activity serves the private interest of Federal 

unions, not the American people. 

Instead of carrying out their duties, employees use official time 

to lobby Congress, attend union conventions, file grievances, and 

perform other union activities. While taxpayers do not benefit from 

official time, Federal unions benefit greatly. 

According to the latest data available from the Office of Personnel Management, official time costs taxpayers $157 million, 

with Federal employees spending 3.4 million hours conducting 

union activities. However, OPM’s figures are mere estimations and 

inaccurate ones at that. According to a 2014 Government Accountability Office report, the methodology used by OPM to estimate the 

cost of official time is inaccurate. The report finds that OPM estimations have shortcomings, such as not using the actual salaries 

of employees who use official time. 

Using a more sound methodology, GAO found that four of the six 

agencies that examined, official time costs about 15 percent more 

or higher than OPM estimate. Besides using an unreliable methodology, OPM does not track all costs associated with official time. 

For example, the OPM survey does not account for the cost of travel, per diem, office space, telephones, and equipment related to official time. These costs add up. The Social Security Administration 

is required to calculate these non-payroll costs, which in fiscal year 

2015 amounted to $2.2 million, or about 15 percent of the total cost 

of official time at the agency. 

Another reason that official time costs are likely higher than reported by OPM is because reports investigating Federal agencies 

have found not all official time activity is tracked and reported. 

The recent GAO report on official time at the Department of Veterans Affairs shows that the agency does not know how many official time hours are used. The inability to monitor what activity 

takes place on official time means it is unknown whether the 

public’s resources are being used effectively. 

No matter the cost of official time, all Federal funds need to be 

spent wisely and in the interest of taxpayers. When Federal employees perform union activities instead of their government duties, 

it detracts from the efficient delivery of public services. 

For example, the Department of Veterans Affairs has a significant patient backlog that could be partially remedied by putting official time employees back to work performing their regular government duties. Over 80 nurses at the VA work 100 percent of the 

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time on union activities. Their time would be better spent treating 

patients. 

Official time is an unnecessary subsidy to Federal unions that 

serves the interest of unions and their members, not the public. 

In conclusion, Congress should consider eliminating official time, 

and short of that, require detailed annual reporting of official time 

to improve the tracking of Federal employees’ union activity performed on official time. Taxpayers have a right to know how much 

of their tax dollars are used to finance official time and what union 

activities Federal employees undertake instead of the job they were 

hired to do. I applaud the Committee’s inquiry into the use of official time. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF TREY KOVACS APPEARS IN THE APPENDIX]

Mr. HICE. [Presiding.] Thank you, Mr. Kovacs, and thanks to 

each of our witnesses for your testimony. We will now begin a series of question, and the chair will begin by recognizing Chairman 

Arrington for 5 minutes. 

Mr. ARRINGTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me preface by 

saying I know there are a lot of great Americans at work at the 

VA and that want to serve our veterans as badly as I do or anybody on this Committee. 

I think the entity, I think the system, I think the bureaucracy, 

I think the union dynamic, the civil service dynamic has been 

taken way to the extreme and has been abusive and is not allowing 

us to perform or manage for performance so we can serve the customer, which is the veteran and the taxpayer. 

This question is for Ms. McLeod and Mr. Cox, and let me start 

with you, Mr. Cox. You mentioned the authorizing legislation or 

the statute that created the ability to unionize in the Federal Government. My reading of that says that the official time must be 

performed with respect to representational work. So given the access issues, given the backlog issues and challenges that we’ve 

talked about—let me back up. 

The other pieces of—language in that legislation says that the 

time spent working on official time must be reasonable, necessary, 

and in the public’s interest. So given the challenges that we laid 

out in our opening statements, or at least in mine, do you believe 

that having somebody work 100 percent of their time on union activities is reasonable, necessary, and in the public’s interest? 

Mr. COX. Ranking—Mr. Chairman, we’ve got so many chairmen 

and Ranking Members today. 

Mr. ARRINGTON. We’re good. 

Mr. COX. Okay. Let’s go to official time. There was a statute 

passed. There are those that believe that unions and official time 

are not important to the government and not important to the service of veterans. For employees performing official time duties as 

union representatives, it’s not just representing in grievances or 

collective bargaining agreements. They serve on many committees 

such as deals with the electronic medical record that the VA developed that everyone in this country is now using, patient safety 

issues that Dr. Bejing (ph) started many, many years ago about patient safety that’s modeled after the FAA regulations that deal with 

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how to report medical errors to prevent them from happening 

and— 

Mr. ARRINGTON. Mr. Cox, let me just—may I just interrupt just 

for—with all due respect. My question is, not what do they do, but 

if they spend 100 percent of their time on union activities, 100 percent of their time, is that reasonable, necessary, and appropriate? 

Mr. COX. I would describe it that they spend their time on government activities, not union activities, because the law requires 

the unions to perform and to represent everyone in the bargaining 

unit. 

And so, therefore, union activities that are internal to the union 

cannot be performed on official time 

Mr. ARRINGTON. Ms. McLeod, do you believe these are reasonable, necessary activities when somebody is spending 100 percent 

of their time and that that’s in the public’s interest? 

Ms. MCLEOD. Chairman Arrington, what I can tell you is that 

the VA has been negotiating, at least at the national level, with 

putting some limitations on the amount of 100 percent union time 

officials. We have negotiated with a couple of our labor partners, 

new master agreements in the very recent years that do not have 

the number of 100 percent official time, union representatives, as 

you are now seeing. 

I don’t know at the local level, which is where most of these 100 

percent official time representatives come from, these are local negotiations. I wasn’t sitting there, and I don’t know how they determine at the local level what was reasonable and necessary and in 

the public interest, but I can tell you at the national level what 

we’re doing. 

Mr. ARRINGTON. The VATAS, is that what you—how you pronounce it, VATAS, the system for tracking. I read that this process 

for creating this tracking system started in 2013, and to date, we 

still don’t have it. It’s supposed to be implemented by July of 2018. 

Ms. McLeod, can you explain why it’s taken 5 years to put a 

tracking system together and roll it out? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I can’t explain that. Unfortunately, that process is 

being managed by another aspect of the Department. I can tell you 

that when the VATAS system initially rolled out, I think there 

were some issues and some hiccups, and they had to go back and 

re-engineer and change some much things on that, and then they 

had to re-roll it out, but we have been adding, you know, training 

components into the VATAS system for timekeepers to be able to 

accurately input official time records. 

Mr. ARRINGTON. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chairman 

Mr. HICE. I thank the gentleman. The chair now recognizes the 

Ranking Member, Mr. Connolly for 5 minutes 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Kovacs, listening to your testimony, you seem to believe that 

any moment, any minute spent by anybody who is for the union, 

a union official is an opportunity cost. It’s lost time. Is that correct? 

Mr. KOVACS. That is correct. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Well, that’s a belief. That’s not an analysis. 

Mr. KOVACS. And I would also— 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Thank you. Ms. Barnes, I heard your testimony, 

and if I’m getting it right, here are your conclusions. There’s inconLeonard.horne on VACREP0180 with DISTILLER

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sistent time and attendance metrics, right, they’re using different 

systems, and not all of the time can easily be measured because of 

the lack of uniformity and—but there are benefits to official time, 

correct? 

Ms. BARNES. Yes, we did find some benefits. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Right. Which of course would counter Mr. 

Kovacs’. You actually acknowledge there are benefits to be accrued 

by official time. The problem is making sure we’re capturing all of 

that accurately. Is that correct? 

Ms. BARNES. That is correct. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Did you find any? Did your report conclude there 

was abuse of official time? 

Ms. BARNES. We didn’t set out to even look at that. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. All right. But if you stumbled upon it, you might 

mention it. I worked with GAO for a long time. 

Ms. BARNES. Yeah, that wasn’t one of our objectives but—so we 

didn’t conclude on that at all. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Find any evidence of it? 

Ms. BARNES. Not for—in this study. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Ms. McLeod, do you all have any evidence of 

massive abuse or a partial abuse or occasional abuse of official 

time? 

Ms. MCLEOD. No, sir. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. I’m sorry? 

Ms. MCLEOD. No, we don’t. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. No. The testimony is no. Okay. 

So let me ask a different set of questions here, Ms. McLeod. 

You’re going to have to speak up a little bit. So 32 percent of the 

VA’s employees are veterans. Is that correct? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I believe so, yes. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. So that works out to 115,000 veterans serving 

veterans in the VA. 

Ms. MCLEOD. Yes. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Correct. So now I understand that there are 

9,000 vacancies currently at the VA. Is that correct? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I don’t know the precise numbers. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. How about you take a guess that’s about right? 

Ms. MCLEOD. Sounds about right. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. All right. So let’s speculate or stipulate that’s 

correct. If you want to come back to us and say, no, it’s 9,721, you 

can do that, and I want to enter into the record, with unanimous 

consent, Mr. Chairman, the vacancies by State and exemption existing in the VA today. 

Mr. HICE. Sold. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

So if there are 9,000 vacancies and about 32 percent, our veterans currently, you could say that in theory there are 3,000 positions that could be filled by a veteran that won’t be because of a 

hiring freeze. Fair enough? 

Ms. MCLEOD. Sure. Yes. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Okay. So we’re talking about the opportunity cost 

of official time, but what we’re not talking about is 9,000 jobs, at 

least 3,000 of them logically filled by a veteran that are going to 

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go begging, and these are for critical functions; are they not, Ms. 

McLeod? 

Ms. MCLEOD. Yes. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. I would ask for the chart, if we’ve got it, to show 

the State chart of unfilled Veterans Administration jobs right now. 

Okay. It’s a little hard to see, but for example, Georgia, 254; 

Maryland, 164; North Carolina, your State, Mr. Cox, and our 

Chairman’s, 343. So I guess I would just suggest that these vacancies are what we ought to be talking about, the hiring freeze and 

the damage of the hiring freeze can do to VA and to the service 

of our veterans. 

We say we’re committed to the eating into the backlog, we say 

we’re committed to trying to streamline services and fix CHOICE 

and make sure people are diagnosed in a timely fashion, and the 

problem isn’t official time. 

The problem is these vacancies, and now we’ve got on top of that 

a hiring freeze that’s going to make it, I think, doubly difficult to 

fill them. 

Ms. McLeod, does a hiring freeze complicate filling a vacancy? 

Ms. MCLEOD. Yes, I would think so. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. You would think so. 

Mr. Cox, did you want to comment on that, since you’ve been the 

subject of discussion here on official time, and I kind of am bothered by the fact that we’re ignoring the elephant in the room. 

Mr. COX. The VA’s new Secretary that I believe was confirmed 

unanimously the other day, which is a miracle to happen at this 

point in life, says there’s 45,000 vacancies in the VA right now. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. So I’m understating the problem. 

Mr. COX. And that would be my assumption, and I couldn’t tell 

you if that number is a fact of what they’re saying is now frozen 

versus they are going to fill others, but Secretary Shulkin said 

there’s 45,000 vacancies in the VA currently. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Wow. My time is up. I thank you, and I thank 

the panel for being here. 

Mr. HICE. I thank the gentleman. Just for the record, the President has exempted 94 positions at the VA for—from the hiring 

freeze. I have a memo here from January 27, 2017. I ask unanimous consent for it to be placed into the record, and without objection, so ordered. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. The chair is—Mr. Chairman, I certainly do not 

object. Thank you for pointing that out. I was simply pointing out, 

it’s great to have 94 exceptions, but we have 9,000 vacancies, and 

Mr. Cox say it’s even more. 

Mr. HICE. Thank you. The chair is now going to recognize himself. I am fascinated by this whole discussion. I’ve been heavily involved on this issue on official time for quite a long while myself. 

It’s amazing to me that we could have government employees who 

have been hired to do one thing and they come on board, at the 

expense of the taxpayers, only to do something else, and all too 

often it’s 100 percent of their time. 

I just came across in another, in fairness, another agency, but an 

individual who was hired to do a particular job. For 8 years now 

they have not one day accomplished the job that they were hired 

to do and making well north of a $150,000 a year. 

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This is to me just an unthinkable thing that’s happening where 

people are exclusively doing union activity when they were hired 

to do something else day after day after day, month after month 

after month, and yet still being paid by the American taxpayer. 

Ms. McLeod, I would like to begin with you. 2012, the VA reported having 259 people who were on 100 percent official time. 

That has increased to almost 350 just in the last couple of years, 

from 3 years later to 2015. That’s a big increase from 250, almost 

100 people, more or less, let’s just round it off, 90 people increase. 

How does the VA account for this increase? What’s behind it? 

What was the necessary cause? 

Ms. MCLEOD. There is likely a few things behind it. Probably an 

increase in employees. There’s probably also the reason being, you 

know, term negotiations. 

We’ve had some term negotiations on some master agreements, 

and so that would require official employees to be on official time 

to participate in those negotiations, local bargaining or negotiating 

on numbers and additions to 100 percent official time employees. 

Mr. HICE. Okay. Let’s move on, because I’ve got a lot of questions, and I want to get to—so if you could get your answers brief 

and to the point, I would appreciate it. 

We also, during that time, obviously, have had veterans who’ve 

had tremendous needs waiting in long lines as has already mentioned, some even passed away waiting while we’ve had an increase 

of people going to official time 100 percent of the time, not to mention, those that are using significant amount of part-time to do official time. 

Does the Department restrict who can go on official time? In 

other words, are there certain occupations, carpenters, lab technicians, is there any certain group that is allowed official time or any 

group that is denied 100 percent? 

Ms. MCLEOD. The Department has no control over who the union 

decides will have the official time. 

Mr. HICE. [Presiding.] Okay. So anyone can, so anyone who requests it. Is that how it works? 

Ms. MCLEOD. Well, those people are chosen by the unions inside 

the agency to provide that work. 

Mr. HICE. Okay. All right. Last year, I joined Chairman Chaffetz 

and Meadows in sending a letter to the VA requesting official time 

data, and in reviewing that, I found some incredible information to 

me, such as there were 90 nurses who were on 100 percent official 

time. I found 3 addiction therapists, a certified respiratory therapist, 13 nursing assistants, 3 pharmacists, 6 pharmacy technicians. 

I even found a doctor who specializes in providing limbs to veterans 

who lost their limbs in the service to this country, in Orlando, Florida, a specialist, and he’s giving 100 percent of his time. Have 

these individuals been replaced? 

Ms. MCLEOD. My understanding, sir, is that we backfill those positions where the individual’s on 100 percent official time. 

Mr. HICE. You backfill them with new hires? 

Ms. MCLEOD. That’s correct. 

Mr. HICE. So the American public is having to hire two people 

for the work of one. I mean, this is an outrage to me to think that 

this is taking place. Mr. Cox mentioned that the positive outcome— 

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I see no positive outcome in having to hire two people for the work 

of one. Not that people doing union work don’t accomplish some 

good, but positive outcomes? We’re creating a bureaucracy that’s all 

on the shoulders of the American taxpayer, and we’re coming in 

here trying to convince ourselves that this is a good thing. 

Ms. McLeod, when you have an employee who is doing this, you 

were saying that you have to hire someone else to do the job that 

the first person was hired to do. Is that correct? 

Ms. MCLEOD. If that individual is on 100 percent official time 

and that particular occupation is necessary, the agency will backfill 

that position and hire someone. 

Mr. HICE. Okay. Mr. Kovacs, let me come to you. And I thank 

you for your work in this area as well. I think you share the same 

concern and outrage that I share and many of us do on this. 

Something else that I found stunning is that the Federal employee unions can actually lobby Congress while on official time so 

that they get paid by the taxpayers literally to lobby Congress. Is 

that accurate? 

Mr. KOVACS. Yeah, that is correct, on desired and pending legislation. 

Mr. HICE. Okay. Is that legal? 

Mr. KOVACS. Yes, that is legal, although I think—although the 

Federal Labor Relations Authority has deemed it appropriate, I 

don’t know how it squares with being, you know, necessary and in 

the public interest. 

Mr. HICE. Mr. Cox, it’s actually on you all’s Web site that these 

on official time can lobby. Is that correct? 

Mr. COX. There are certain issues that can be lobbied before Congress on official time that would deal with matters pending before 

Congress, such as, if you will remember, several years ago you 

adopted the advanced appropriations for the VA, the only agency 

that gets funded 2 years in advance. While many other agencies 

are now talking about how great an idea that would be, that would 

be an issue before Congress that many people would want to encourage and lobby for. 

Mr. HICE. Mr. Kovacs, to me it’s pretty clear that current law 

prohibits Federal employees explicitly, they’re prohibited from lobbying and engaging in political activity with the use of appropriated funds. 

Mr. KOVACS. Yes. The Anti-Lobbying Act does prohibit— 

Mr. HICE. Anti-Lobbying Act. 

Mr. KOVACS [continued].—prohibit Federal employees. 

Mr. HICE. So what am I missing here? 

Mr. KOVACS. So even though Federal employees on official time 

are considered in duty status, concerning pay, concerning lobbying, 

you know, they are not. 

Mr. HICE. And why are they not? 

Mr. KOVACS. That’s what the Federal Labor Relations Authority 

has decided over the years in its decisions. 

Mr. HICE. Okay. My time has expired. I appreciate the others’ 

sharing indulgence. 

The chair now recognizes Mr. O’Rourke for 5 minutes. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

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Let me begin by thanking Ms. Barnes and the GAO for another 

excellent work product and helping us to make informed decisions 

in our jobs and the policies that we’re working on and the decisions 

that we’re making. So I greatly appreciate it. 

I wonder if you could begin by clarifying for me a statement 

made by the Chairman from North Carolina when he said that VA 

employees use more official time than any other government agency. The latest year for which we have reliable information is 2012, 

and I notice on page 1 of your report, the rate of official time at 

VA during fiscal year 2012 was lower, compared to several other 

large agencies, such as Treasury and Transportation. 

Can you explain the discrepancy between the Chairman’s statement and your finding on page 1? If not, I’ll take it for the record. 

I just want to understand it. I’m sure he does as well. 

Ms. BARNES. Yeah. I’ll submit it for the record. We only looked 

at VA. There was another GAO study that looked more government 

wide. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. Okay. Thanks. 

Is it Ms. McLeod, is that the appropriate way to say it? 

Ms. McLeod, thank you also for your work and your answers so 

far today. So my understanding, you said earlier that VA management cannot choose who it is that will serve in official time on behalf of the union and the employees that the union represents, but 

it can help set the percentage of time that is spent on these issues. 

Is that correct? 

Ms. MCLEOD. That’s correct. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. And you alluded to that happening on a local 

basis today, but perhaps the new Secretary will want to standardize that across the VA. 

Ms. MCLEOD. That’s correct. It has been, at least the Office of 

Labor Management Relations’ direction, that as we sit at the table 

at the national level and negotiate national level master agreements, that we’ve been putting some limitations on the number of 

100 percent official time employees. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. I share Chairman Arrington’s concern about how 

long it has taken the VA to standardize its process to record official 

time. I think everyone here is deeply disappointed in that, frustrated by that. I notice in the GAO report that the VA is making 

a commitment to have this issue addressed, at least systematically, 

the IT infrastructure that you’re using, by July of 2018. Is that a 

credible goal? 

Ms. MCLEOD. That’s correct. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. The VA is going to hit that. You’re on the record 

saying VA by July 2018 will have a unified system which every employee using official time will use so that we have reliable information upon which to make our decisions? 

Ms. MCLEOD. That is what we are going to endeavor to do, yes. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. Okay. Just to be clear on the record, you said you 

will try to do that, not that you will do that. I am for the record 

going to submit a request to the Secretary. I would like his response in writing, and I would be very happy to share it with the 

Committee. We absolutely have to have the VA deliver on that. 

I’ll tell you, reading this, it’s clear to me that this has not been 

a priority for the VA. The VA at the highest levels of leadership 

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21 

just has not cared about this issue. Otherwise, we would have one 

unified system. Otherwise, we’d have reliable data today in 2017, 

not dependent on information that’s, at best, 5 years old. So I want 

to see a real commitment in writing on paper to which we can hold 

you and the Secretary accountable for. So I’ll be looking for that. 

I would also like to say, Mr. Chairman, that I’m grateful to hear 

from almost every Member of this Committee their assurance that 

they are not opposed to union representation at the VA, that they 

see value in official time, that where we do have a problem is in 

accounting for that time and understanding how it is allocated, 

whether it’s 100 percent or 50 percent. I think those are things 

that we can resolve and, again, issues that can be corrected with 

the appropriate leadership. And I’m again very glad to see that 

we’ll have Dr. Shulkin at the helm as our new Secretary confirmed 

100 to 0. 

Mr. Cox, finally, would you share with us, either anecdotally or 

through data, preferably, why it might be in the public interest to 

have someone spend 100 percent of their time on official time? Why 

does that make sense? I think that’s a really legitimate question 

that people we represent are asking us. 

Mr. COX. The VA is a very, very diverse organization that has 

lots of professions and occupations in it. The law requires for official time. There are medical center directors that have decided it 

would be better to have one person that that’s what they’re doing 

versus to have four or five people that’s taking 20 percent here, 20 

percent there, 25 percent, because there is an orderly flow to the 

work that may happen, and you know that that’s how you program 

and plan your work. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. So if I could—and I’m sorry to interrupt you, just 

as my time expires, if I could sketch out a scenario, you have a VA 

director who has more demand than she has capacity, wants to 

maximize the workforce under her command and so says instead 

of me working with 15 different employees all working at varying 

percentages, there’s one person that I’d like to go to who I can rely 

on 100 percent of the time to address issues of negotiation or training or workplace safety or other issues that are within the public 

interest and the interests of the veterans that we serve. 

Mr. COX. Yes. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Mr. HICE. I thank the gentleman. 

The chair now recognizes Mr. Wenstrup for 5 minutes. 

Mr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for 

being here today. 

You know, as a physician, I’m one of the many physicians in 

America that had the benefit of spending some time training in a 

VA, and I appreciate the opportunity to take care of veterans and 

to have that be a part of the training that I obtained. 

I got here 4 years ago, and this was before the situation at Phoenix broke, and I remember asking all the VHA administrators if 

any of them had ever been in private practice where quality and 

productivity were necessary elements to keep your door open, to be 

in the black, and none of them had. And I think that was a major 

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22 

deficit for our administration at that time because they don’t know 

what they don’t know. 

But on the subject of productivity, I would appreciate, Mr. Cox, 

if you could, for the record, send to me any products that the union 

has produced that addresses ways to increase productivity and patient care. So for the record, I would like to have that from you, 

if there is such an item. 

And I do feel for hospital administrators in this situation because 

they’re trying to provide for patients and render patient care, and 

that needs to be a reliable source of caregivers. And their time has 

to be well-defined to when they are there and able to take care of 

patients, and that seems to be missing in this situation. 

And I’d like to address something too that Mr. Connolly brought 

up, and he made a point about the jobs for veterans, but let’s keep 

in mind, these jobs exist because veterans need care. A secondary 

benefit would be that some people have jobs, but the first priority 

is that veterans need care, not because we need to create jobs for 

veterans. That’s the primary mission. 

I have a question for you, Mr. Cox. Do your members pay dues? 

Mr. COX. Those that choose to join pay dues. However, there is 

no requirement for anyone to— 

Mr. WENSTRUP. Okay. So you have space within the VA, and 

that’s paid for by the taxpayer? 

Mr. COX [continued]. Yes, sir. And we’re required by law to represent all employees and the bargaining unit— 

Mr. WENSTRUP. Okay. I just asked you a question. The taxpayer 

pays for that space. 

Does the taxpayer pay for your copiers and everything else that 

you may need to have an office? 

Mr. COX. That would depend upon what the union had bargained 

or negotiated either nationally or locally. 

Mr. WENSTRUP. Essentially, yes then. If it’s bargained for, I understand. That’s a legitimate answer to me. But I just want to 

know if that’s in the agreement right now, because I don’t think 

that’s the same for other unions throughout the country in many, 

many situations. 

Let me ask you this, Mr. Cox. Does the union have a mission 

statement, and especially a mission statement for VA employees? 

Mr. COX. When you ask for a mission statement for VA employees, our mission statement, we support the VA also, and we’re— 

Mr. WENSTRUP. But you don’t officially have a mission statement. 

Let me ask you this. Let me ask you the priorities. Because 

that’s a yes or a no. If you don’t have one, you don’t have one. But 

let me ask you the priorities that may exist. If you were to put 

forth a mission statement, what would be the highest priority of 

who you’re serving, for example? Are you serving the taxpayer, the 

veteran, or the union? Could you list those one, two, three for me, 

what you think the mission statement would look like? 

Mr. COX. If you’re asking for me to answer that particular question, that may be difficult. I would tell you that I believe any VA 

employee would tell you their first priority is to care for the veteran. And I would go back to Deputy Secretary Hershel Gober 

many years ago, that if we don’t also care for the employees, we 

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won’t be able to care for the veterans, and many of the employees 

are veterans. And I think every employer wants that to be a good 

work environment and to be a good employer, to resolve problems 

in the workplace, make sure that people are treated fairly, promoted properly, and that there is a good merit system, a process. 

So I think they go hand in hand together, sir. 

Mr. WENSTRUP. I think they certainly can go hand in hand. I just 

wonder if there’s some analysis if that’s actually what’s taking 

place. 

And maybe, Mr. Kovacs, do you have some analysis of that or 

have you ever looked at that and created an analysis as to what 

the priorities seem to be? 

Mr. KOVACS. Well, I would say, unfortunately as the GAO report 

states, we really have no reliable data of, you know, how many 

hours of official time are being taken or what, you know, exact duties are being performed. You know, OPM, the most reliable study 

on it breaks it down into four categories: You know, midterm bargaining, term bargaining, dispute resolution, general labor management. 

Well, 75 percent of official time is all used on general labor management. I’m not sure exactly what that means and what activities 

take place. I would assume lobbying and going to union conventions would fall into that, but I don’t know what else that would 

entail. 

Mr. WENSTRUP. Thank you very much. And I just have a few seconds. 

I appreciate what you’re saying, Mr. Cox, from the standpoint as 

a caregiver, you want an environment that can work where the 

person that’s giving the care can render it effectively and work towards that means. But keep in mind that it’s the veteran that 

we’re there to take care of first, and that should be a priority. And 

when you’re on the time of the—on behalf of the veterans, that 

should be the priority. 

Thank you, and I yield back. 

Mr. HICE. I thank the gentleman. 

The chair now recognizes Mr. Takano for 5 mines. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

My Republican colleagues have suggested that the 346 VA employees who use 100 percent official time are standing in the way 

of veterans’ access to care, but I would suggest if we really care 

about improving veterans’ timely access to quality health care, 

wouldn’t it make sense for Congress to focus our efforts on giving 

VA the recruiting tools it needs to fill the over 45,000 current vacant positions in the VHA? 

Do you have a response to that, Ms. McLeod? Would we not better be focusing our attention on giving you the recruiting tools that 

you need to fill those 45,000 vacancies? 

Ms. MCLEOD. Sir, I mean, the VA would certainly appreciate 

being able to fill the vacancies that we have. 

Mr. TAKANO. Mr. Cox, do you have anything to add to that? 

Mr. COX. Certainly. I believe everyone would benefit by filling 

those vacancies. Number one, we would see those wait lines go 

down. We would see veterans properly cared for and taken care of. 

We would see also the employment, if it’s 45,000 jobs, 30 percent 

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veterans, we would see at least 15,000 veterans get jobs. So I think 

the benefits of filling those jobs would compound themselves over 

and over. 

Mr. TAKANO. Because we’re not talking about jobs created just 

for the sake of jobs, are we? We’re talking about jobs that really 

are going to serve the needs of veterans, right, Ms. McLeod? 

Ms. MCLEOD. That’s correct. 

Mr. TAKANO. You know, I read a big—you know, this ballyhooed 

thing about Carrier, we’re saving 1,500 jobs in Indiana, but we 

have 45,000 jobs that are necessary to serve our veterans. Our veterans are being hurt because those jobs are not being filled. And 

I don’t understand why this administration wants to put a freeze 

on employing people that are absolutely needed to help our veterans. The hiring freeze—according to Comptroller General Dodaro, 

the hiring freeze has caused agencies to hire contractors, which 

was more expensive than hiring Federal employees, and it didn’t 

reduce the size of the workforce. It caused agencies problems in implementing their missions, end quote. 

That’s what I am scared of happening, is that this hiring freeze 

is going to cause us to rely on more expensive contractors, and actually we’re not going to achieve any shrinkage in the number of 

people we need to serve our veterans. 

According to the VA, job applications at the VHA are down 78 

percent since 2014. Isn’t the real problem that the VA needs from 

Congress is more tools to recruit more qualified providers to fill 

these vacancies? I think we need to streamline the hiring process. 

President Trump issued a Federal hiring freeze in January, but 

the VA Secretary has exempted already over 90 occupations from 

this freeze to protect the public safety. And most of these exempted 

positions are for health care providers in VHA, but no occupations 

in the VBA were exempted, leaving 763 vacancies. These vacancies 

could be filled by veterans or veteran families, as you mentioned, 

Mr. Cox. At least one-third of our hires at the VA are veterans. But 

now these vacancies will remain unfilled. These will be 763 potential employees who will not be hired to help veterans get their benefits faster. The disability claims backlog is now over 100,000 

claims, and the appeals backlog is over 600,000. 

How will these 763 VBA vacancies hurt veterans, Ms. McLeod? 

Ms. MCLEOD. The work that those individuals would be doing 

won’t get done, and so veterans won’t have those services. 

Mr. TAKANO. I would say 600,000 appeals backlog, 100,000 

claims in the disability backlog would imply to me that these employee—the categories in the VBA should be exempted as well, that 

this hiring freeze was highly, highly political and highly, highly expedient. 

How does the hiring freeze make it more difficult for current 

VBA employees to do their jobs, thus increasing the need for official time to resolve workplace challenges and disputes? Mr. Cox. 

Mr. COX. Obviously, when people become stressed and more 

issues go on in the work environment, there is a greater need to 

resolve those disputes and to move forward, so the stress of working in VBA is very tough. My wife works for VBA, will retire the 

last day of this month, thankfully, but takes her job very, very seriously. And it is a stressful job because they understand there is a 

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veteran at the end of that claim that deserves that claim and needs 

that claim, and they want to get it processed immediately. And 

they worry about getting it done before the veteran takes their last 

breath. 

Mr. TAKANO. Well, thank you. So my time is running out, but so 

amid all this stress, there does need to be a better accounting for 

official time, but this is the environment in which VA is being 

asked to track official time, but official time is definitely needed in 

terms of the added burden and stress that we have of a workforce 

that is woefully understaffed. 

I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. HICE. I thank the gentleman. 

The chair now recognizes Dr. Roe for 5 minutes. 

Mr. ROE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I think both sides of the aisle are trying to do what is best for 

veterans. And, Mr. Cox, I think when you were searching for what 

the mission statement was, I think Abraham Lincoln said it better 

than anybody: ‘‘To care for him who shall have borne the battle.’’ 

That’s what our job is. 

And I can just tell you that the number of employees at the VA 

is not too little. When I got to the U.S. Congress in 2009 and was 

sworn in to uphold the Constitution, there were about 260,000 people that worked for the VA. Today, there are over 360,000 people 

who work for the VA. And I wonder—and we’ve gone from a budget 

of around $97 billion to almost $180 billion in 8 years, while the 

rest of the discretionary budget has stayed basically flat. We took 

that money away from education and others to put it in veterans. 

And, basically, I’m not interested in how many people work for 

the VA. I’m looking for how hard and how well we fulfill that mission. Let me just share with you a frustration that I have. At a 

time when there are over 475,000 appointments scheduled 30 days 

or out for veterans’ requests, we’ve got critical employees like one 

in Los Angeles, a physician making $212,000 a year who spends 

100 percent of his or her time—I don’t know what they are—but 

on official time, not seeing patients. 

Another whistleblower provided this information that shows that 

another emergency room physician at the North Chicago VA Medical Center is paid $240,000 and is currently 100 percent on official 

time. How do I explain that to a veteran when you’ve got a fully 

trained, board certified doctor, when you can’t—that’s one of the 

problems, they’re backed up forever to get in, how in the world do 

you explain that to people? And one of your members, a primary 

care doctor based in Los Angeles, $212,000, that is data that we 

have. 

So we understand, and I’m not saying—we certainly understand 

that there can be a union. I understand that. I grew up in a union 

household, so I understand that. But when you have time that 

you’re paid to be a doctor, how does that help a patient who can’t 

see that doctor? Anybody want to take that? You got a board certified doctor and you have no access to him. And we’re short of providers. And I can tell you, when you’ve hired 100,000 people like 

the VA has since I’ve been in this Congress 8 short years, it is not 

for lack of personnel and not for lack of money. The taxpayers have 

provided for our veterans. 

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Mr. COX. Dr. Roe, and I enjoyed our meeting the other day, and 

I think you know our commitment to the VA. I also believe all of 

Congress understands that a union cannot discriminate against 

who runs for an office and who is elected to serve in a position, be 

it by profession, by color, by race, by nationality. We cannot do 

that. The law is very, very clear that we don’t get to— 

Mr. ROE. Okay. I understand that. But how do I explain it to a 

veteran, you can’t see a doctor? And guess what? It’s not just the 

VA hospital. It’s other hospitals that are short too of personnel. It’s 

not just the VA. We’re scrounging up nurses, RNs, at our local 

medical center now. We’re having to offer bonuses and scholarships 

and other things to get these positions filled. 

So when you have these critical positions filled, and they’re 

spending time doing completely union work when there’s a needy 

veteran with a medical need out there, that is the mission. It’s not 

to take care of the union and not to take care of me if I’m a provider to VA. It’s to take care of the veteran. 

Mr. COX. But I would go back to what I said earlier. To take care 

of the veteran, I think you do have to take care of the employee 

because you want a good work environment. And, yes, who that 

person may be, the value added, that physician, that nurse, into 

quality management, into innovative ideas, working with the VA 

hand in hand, Dr. Shulkin has personally asked AFGE for a physician to serve on various task forces to help move the modern VA 

initiative. 

Mr. ROE. We have a hospital that’s right next door to our VA in 

Johnson City, Tennessee. It’s nonunionized. They seem to function 

very well, and the complicated cases the VA can’t handle, are sent 

right over to the hospital that’s quarter of a mile away. The campuses abutt each other. So I don’t buy that argument, and I don’t 

buy that we don’t have enough people working. There are critical 

shortages, yes, I totally agree with that. For instance, in psychiatrists and PTSD treatment, there are shortages. 

And I wrote the letter to the President requesting that he not 

freeze health care providers. I’m the one that wrote that letter, so 

I get that. But I tell you, we have some real soul searching to do 

in the VA right now to make it the organization it needs to be. 

I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. HICE. I thank the gentleman. 

And for the record, the VBA told the House VA Committee earlier this week that they are overstuffed at the 105 percent level at 

this point. 

Let’s continue on. The chair recognizes Miss Rice for 5 minutes. 

Miss RICE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Ms. McLeod, is there any way for you to describe what benefits, 

having people work on official time, what benefits inure to people 

in a whistleblower situation? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I can tell you that we have heard, you know, inside 

the agency where employees who are represented by a union went 

through their union to provide information about, you know, whatever, you know, related to wait times or patient issues or other 

kinds of health care concerns that they’ve had, that they did use 

their union representative for that purpose to give them some 

amount of protection to do that. 

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Miss RICE. And in your opinion, there’s no question—I think, Mr. 

Cox, you would probably agree with this as well—hopefully, everyone on the panel would agree, that if you have a productive workplace environment where patients are being cared for, but also employees’ rights are being protected, that that actually will inure to 

the benefit of the treatment of the patients as well? 

Mr. COX. Yes. 

Miss RICE. Yes. 

Ms. Barnes, so with the implementation of the new IT system, 

do you believe that that will rectify a lot of the problems that you 

saw in your analysis of this issue? 

Ms. BARNES. It’s not clear, because even with the new system, 

there’s another process that was being used at the time of our review to report the agency wide data. So for us, which is just right 

now, we’d have to wait and go back and do probably another review 

to look at that. 

Miss RICE. But that’s a first step that you would recommend, obviously you’re recommending, right? 

Ms. BARNES. Yeah, we did recommend that full implementation. 

Miss RICE. Okay. Well, I was happy that Chairman Meadows, before he had to leave, stated really unequivocally and very passionately his support for whistleblowers and whistleblower protections, 

which I was very happy to hear. And just as a comment, I just 

don’t—I don’t think this has to be an either/or proposition that you 

have good care, but you can’t take care of the employee, or you take 

care of the employee and you have bad care. I don’t think that it 

has to be an either/or proposition. I think that there is a way that 

all of us working together can ensure that our veterans are given 

the treatment that they deserve and that employees, not just in the 

VA, but in any other organization, are respected and protected so 

that they can give the kind of care that our veterans need. 

So I don’t think there’s a lot of space between the sides of the 

aisle on that issue. And so I hope that we can transition to a conversation that recognizes the needs of protecting both as a way of 

enhancing the services that our veterans so richly deserve. 

Thank you all on the panel. And I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. HICE. I thank the gentlewoman. 

The chair now recognizes Mr. Jordan for 5 minutes. 

Mr. JORDAN. I thank the Chairman. 

Mr. Kovacs, define official time. How would you define it? 

Mr. KOVACS. It is paid leave given to Federal employees to perform union activities. 

Mr. JORDAN. So they’re not working for the taxpayer at that 

time. They’re working for the union? 

Mr. KOVACS. Correct. 

Mr. JORDAN. Okay. How many people at the VA are now on official time? 

Mr. KOVACS. We do not know that. 

Mr. JORDAN. Most recent reports, do you have an idea? 

Mr. KOVACS. The OPM report doesn’t cover—I believe in 2012, 

there was about a million hours of official time was used. 

Mr. JORDAN. Okay. So the total hours, just at the VA, was a million, and that was in 2012? 

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Mr. KOVACS. Correct. And then it’s also important to note, as the 

GAO report states, they really don’t know how much official time 

is used. 

Mr. JORDAN. Yeah. That’s what the VA tells us. 

Mr. KOVACS. Correct. 

Mr. JORDAN. Okay. So let’s go back to this official time. You don’t 

know the number of people on official time? 

Mr. KOVACS. No. 

Mr. JORDAN. Do you know the number of people on partial time? 

Mr. KOVACS. No. 

Mr. JORDAN. Do you know if there’s—has there been a trend up 

in people on official time? 

Mr. KOVACS. Well, I can’t tell you whether there’s been a trend 

in individual employees, but, certainly, official time use at the VA 

since 2008 to 2012 has increased greatly. It’s increased from 

700,000 hours to, you know, a little over 1 million in 4 years. 

Mr. JORDAN. So in that 4 year from 2008 to 2012, we saw a dramatic increase in the hours of, quote, official time. Do you have any 

information across government, so not just for the VA, do you know 

how many people are in an official time category across the government? 

Mr. KOVACS. Unfortunately, we don’t have reliable recordkeeping. 

Mr. JORDAN. What about the most recent report? Does it give a 

number? 

Mr. KOVACS. No. 

Mr. JORDAN. The number I have from OPM, I think it may be 

from the same report, was 3.4 million hours of official time across 

government. 

Mr. KOVACS. Oh, I thought you were talking about individual 

employees. 

Mr. JORDAN. Go back to the hours. 

Mr. KOVACS. Yeah, yeah. 3.4 million hours. 

Mr. JORDAN. Okay. But you don’t have anything on the number 

of people across government in official time or partial time? 

Mr. KOVACS. No. No. 

Mr. JORDAN. But we do know this: 3.4 million hours in 2012 

across government, and a third of that 3.4 million hours was at the 

VA alone? 

Mr. KOVACS. Correct. 

Mr. JORDAN. Wow. That’s amazing. That’s amazing. We would 

like to get the number—and this is—if I understand this right, 

that’s the number that the VA gave us that the GAO says they’re 

not real sure they can trust. 

Mr. KOVACS. That is correct. 

Mr. JORDAN. Okay. So 3.4 million hours of folks working official 

time, which is a fancy way of saying they aren’t working for the 

taxpayer, they’re working for the union, and almost one-third of 

that 3.4 million hours is folks at the VA who aren’t working for the 

taxpayers, and more importantly, for the veterans, but working for 

the union. And we don’t know if we can trust that, which means 

it may be even higher. Is that accurate? 

Mr. KOVACS. Yeah, that’s absolutely— 

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Mr. JORDAN. And the trend between 2008 and 2012 was from 

700,000 hours to 1 million hours in that 4-year timeframe. So from 

2012 to 2016, it’s probably fair to say it went up as well? 

Mr. KOVACS [continued]. Correct. 

Mr. JORDAN. We don’t know, but— 

Mr. KOVACS [continued]. We don’t know, and we don’t have reliable— 

Mr. JORDAN [continued]. And if the VA would tell us what it is, 

we probably couldn’t trust it? 

Mr. KOVACS. Correct. 

Mr. JORDAN. Wow. No wonder the veterans aren’t getting the 

care they deserve, and no wonder the taxpayers are getting ripped 

off. 

Ms. Barnes, do you disagree with anything that we just had in 

that little dialogue I had with Mr. Kovacs? 

Ms. BARNES. Well, we didn’t look at the ’08 and ’12 trends, but 

certainly in terms of the reliability of the data, I agree with that. 

Mr. JORDAN. Yeah. It’s not real reliable, the data you’re getting 

from the VA, is what you’re saying, right? 

Ms. BARNES. That’s correct. 

Mr. JORDAN. Okay. Mr. Chairman, this is something that’s got to 

change. I appreciate you all having the hearing, but, look, this is 

unbelievable, unbelievable what we have here. So let’s hope we can 

change it and get rid of all these folks on official time, which is— 

I love the way government works, a fancy name, official time. It 

sounds like they’re actually working for the taxpayers, working for 

the veterans, when in fact it’s just the opposite. 

So with that, I yield back. 

Mr. HICE. Would the gentleman yield? 

Mr. JORDAN. I would be happy to yield to the Chairman. 

Mr. HICE. I mentioned earlier, we wrote a letter and the response of the letter to the VA, to answer the gentleman’s question, 

over 1,900 people at the VA involved in partial or full-time, 100 

percent official time at the VA, and that’s straight from the VA 

itself, and over 340 of which are 100 percent. 

The gentleman yields. 

The chair now recognizes Mrs. Watson Coleman for 5 minutes. 

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

There are a lot of numbers floating around here. I’m going to try 

to get some clarity on some of them, but first I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record the statement for the record from 

Randy Erwin, national president, National Federation of Federal 

Employees to the Subcommittee on Government Operations of the 

House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform dated 

February 16. 

Mr. HICE. Without objection, so ordered. 

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. Thank you. 

I’m looking at some numbers as well. First of all, Ms. Barnes, I 

appreciate the information that you’ve given us. What I’ve gleaned 

from it is that we’re not quantifying or qualifying whether or not 

this activity that takes place where union members are counseling, 

negotiating, mediating, or whatever they’re doing, employees, that’s 

not the issue here. The issue, as you have stated, had to do with 

whether or not we are quantifying the time, accounting for the 

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30 

time appropriately. Okay. We’re not disparaging the VA for information it is sharing. That’s not what your report did, that’s not the 

subject of this. 

Ms. BARNES. We took the information that the VA gave us and 

did some different checks and other things that we usually do to 

determine whether the information could be relied upon. 

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. As you always do. You don’t rely upon 

any unverifiable information when you’re presenting your reports 

to Congress. 

The information I have here says that we have about 360,000 

employees of the VA, and less than 350 of them are 100 percent 

working in this category that we have been talking about today. Is 

that fairly accurate? 

Ms. MCLEOD. Yes, that’s accurate. 

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. Thank you. So that represents 1/10 of 

1 percent. 

I also have some information that says that the amount of time— 

this is 2012 so—the amount of time that VA employees spent on 

activities during official time represents just 1/500 of the total 

number of hours of VA bargaining unit employees working. Does 

that sound about correct? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I haven’t done the math, but it sounds— 

Mrs. WATSON COLEMAN. Well, my point is that it doesn’t really 

seem to be a big doggone deal when we think about all the other 

challenges facing the VA, and our need to present all the resources 

that our veterans need because they gave up for us something, and 

we need to be taking care of their needs. 

Now, I happen to have had experience in both the executive 

branch and the legislative branch, and I’ve worked with unions as 

a member and as a nonmember in management, but I recognize 

the importance of employees having access to some resource to deal 

with guidance, to deal with problems, to mitigate problems, to deescalate potential problems, to ensure that employees are treated 

fairly. And in this particular climate where whole agencies are 

being gagged, where we don’t know what to expect from one day 

to the next from an administration that can’t figure out where its 

loyalties lie, being able to have the kind of worker protections that 

unions provide is most vitally, vitally important. 

And so my concern would be that we ensure that there is continuity of policy and application of standards, that there is appropriate space available for these activities to occur, that there is a 

protection of privacy for the employee when this activity is taking 

place, but that we don’t in any way, shape, or form discourage or 

create a cloud over this right that has already been established for 

employees in either the VA or any other place in government. And 

if we are concerned, and I believe it’s a function that they are providing, the job that they are doing, is very much in the best interests of both the workforce and the employer. And if I’m going to 

talk about whether or not people should do exactly what they’ve 

been paid for, I had a question, my colleagues, as to why we don’t 

bring Kellyanne Conway in here and ask her was she doing what 

she was paid for when she was huckstering the Ivanka Trump 

clothing line. 

And with that, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

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Mr. MEADOWS. I thank the gentlewoman. 

The chair recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Rutherford, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

You know, having grown up in a law enforcement organization 

that had civil service protection and a union, I was always very 

supportive of both of those concepts. And then later when I was 

elected sheriff and actually became the CEO of that organization, 

I still supported civil service and union protection for my employees. Now, it made it difficult for me to get rid of bad employees, 

but I always felt like everyone should have that due process that, 

if I followed it as an administrator, I could get rid of bad employees, and so I supported that. 

Now, I am a little confused when I hear some of these numbers 

thrown around about the official time. We had official union time 

as well, and we had a pool of hours that could be drawn from. So, 

Mr. Cox, my question to you is, under the master agreement, I see 

where 25,000 hours are provided for union activity. Is that correct? 

Mr. COX. You have the master agreement in front of you. Now, 

I’m the national president, so I’m not the president of the VA 

Council. I think that number is correct, but actually Ms. McLeod 

would probably be the better one to give you the exact figures on 

that. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Okay. Is that number correct, 25,000? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I’m not sure. It sounds correct, but I’d have to see 

the master agreement. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Okay. And then there are individual facilities 

that negotiate additional official time, correct? 

Ms. MCLEOD. That’s correct. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. And how much is that across all VA facilities? 

What number of authorized pool time is there, official time, as you 

call it? How much time is there totally available? 25,000 plus the 

facilities, what is that number? 

Ms. MCLEOD. So it depends on which union and which master 

agreement you’re speaking of. If you’re talking about the AFGE 

master agreement, the number of hours is the floor, and then they 

can negotiate from there locally. If you’re talking about some of the 

more recent contracts we’ve negotiated, we’ve developed— 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Okay. Let me cut because my time is running 

out. What is the total maximum usable official time within the VA, 

under all contracts? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I couldn’t answer that. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Nobody knows that number. Mr. Cox, surely 

you must know that number? 

Mr. COX. No, sir, I don’t know that number. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. So there’s a million hours being used, and nobody knows what the pool is? We don’t know what legally is available by contract? 

Let me ask you this, Ms. McLeod. Are you allowed to deny any— 

operationally, I don’t know how this works within the VA, does a 

union representative come to you and ask for time to perform 

union activity? 

Ms. MCLEOD. Certainly, at the local facility, someone who wants 

to— 

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Mr. RUTHERFORD. Okay. So they tell you what that time is going 

to be utilized for, correct? 

Ms. MCLEOD. For the most part. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Okay. And you can deny that time if it’s not 

an appropriate union activity, I presume. Is that correct? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I’m certain they could, or if they need that individual to perform other duties. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Now, can you deny them time if they go over 

and above the negotiated and agreed-to-by-contract pool of official 

time? 

Ms. MCLEOD. That’s correct, yes. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Have you ever done that? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I have not because I don’t have employees who are 

in the bargaining unit who work in my office. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Has any facility done that? Mr. Cox, are you 

aware of anyone who’s been denied? It sounds to me like we grant 

time and nobody’s even looking at the official pool. 

Mr. COX. I am sure that people have been denied official time. 

Again, the AFGE has over 200 locals in the VA. There are other 

unions that represent employees in the VA. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Thank you. 

Mr. Chairman, I know I’m over my time, but I’d like to request 

from Mr. Cox, if you could, send me in writing what the total official time pool is for VA, master agreements, and facility agreements. What is the total amount of time? 

Mr. COX. Sir, I can tell you now I can’t tell you that time. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Who can? 

Mr. COX. The VA would be the one that would have the ability. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Ms. McLeod, then you can provide that? 

Ms. MCLEOD. We will provide that. 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Thank you. I’d be glad to get it. 

Mr. HICE. Would the gentleman yield? 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. HICE. Would the gentleman yield? 

Mr. RUTHERFORD. Yes. 

Mr. HICE. Mr. Cox, you said that there have been people denied 

official time. Could you provide a list of who that would be? 

Mr. COX. I can only tell you anecdotal information because, yes, 

people are told, we can’t spare you that day or it’s not a convenient 

time. 

Mr. HICE. So you can’t provide a list? 

Mr. COX. No, sir, I can’t provide that list, but, yes, it does happen, sir. 

Mr. MEADOWS. The gentleman yields back to the gentleman from 

Florida, and the gentleman from Florida’s time has expired. 

So the chair recognizes himself for a series of questions, but I’ll 

yield to the gentleman from Ohio for a brief comment, Mr. 

Wenstrup. 

Mr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I just want to make one thing clear too in this dialogue. We have 

phenomenal caregivers in the VA system. We really do. I get very 

few complaints about caregivers. The system complaints, often. I 

will be the first to protect whistleblowers. They have come to me 

with some valuable information and insights. And I believe in a 

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due process for people, and I also believe we want to create a nonhostile environment for people to work. But I just want to make 

sure that we’re not unnecessarily taking away from valuable time 

and assets for taking care of our veterans. 

And with that, I yield back. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I thank the gentleman. I thank each of you for 

your testimony. My apologies for having to step out. Sometimes you 

have a number of issues that are going on simultaneously. 

Ms. McLeod, let me come to you, because what the GAO reported 

is that what the VA has could only be described as dysfunctional 

at best and nonexistent at the worst in terms of being able to track 

this. I mean, they can’t even get an accurate count of official time. 

What is the VA doing to correct that? 

Ms. MCLEOD. The VA is implementing across the system the 

VATAS, which is VA the time and attendance system. That system 

has been improved so that we can appropriately track the use of 

official time. It has the categories— 

Mr. MEADOWS. So when will it be implemented? 

Ms. MCLEOD. Fully, by July 2018. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Okay. And why is it taking so long to do that? 

I mean, I can hire a private sector to get something done in half 

the time. Why is it taking so long? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I don’t know, sir. It’s not a program that my office 

is responsible for. I’m just not sure. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So who is responsible for it? 

Ms. MCLEOD. The Office of Management is the office that is rolling that time and attendance system out. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So how do you know for a fact that it will be implemented by 2018? I mean, if you’re not implementing it, how do 

you know? 

Ms. MCLEOD. They have assured our office that it will be fully 

implemented. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right. So how do you figure out if somebody 

is using 100 percent of the time, how do they account for their 

time? 

Ms. MCLEOD. They should be accounting for it at the local level. 

I mean, it’s incumbent upon local— 

Mr. MEADOWS. They should be. I agree. I mean, we agree on 

that. Are they? 

Ms. MCLEOD. It is our belief that they are. They are reporting 

up to our office every year the amount. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Okay. So your sworn testimony, it is your belief 

that they are. So why does GAO have such a hard time figuring 

out the numbers? And this is not a new problem, Ms. McLeod, is 

it? 

Ms. MCLEOD. No, it’s not. 

Mr. MEADOWS. And so why are we still here talking about it? Because Mr. Ross was here earlier, and when I was doing my research for all of this, it looked like it was a problem in 2012 when 

he and Phil Gingrey was looking at this. Was it not? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I’m not sure about that. 

Mr. MEADOWS. In 2012, was it a problem? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I’m not sure. I suppose it could have been. I don’t 

know that for sure. 

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Mr. MEADOWS. Well, who does know? You brought staff behind 

you. Do they know? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I don’t know that they know. You know, I can tell 

you— 

Mr. MEADOWS. So are they on official time? 

Ms. MCLEOD. No, sir. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Okay. So you brought staff that can’t answer the 

question? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I can tell you that there was a report that GAO 

did in 2014, and in 2014 there were issues with our ability to consistently and accurately track official time. We weren’t, however, 

the only, you know, government agency who experienced those concerns. And we’ve been moving, I believe, in the right direction with 

the implementation of VATAS. 

Mr. MEADOWS. You’re moving in the right direction over a 4-year 

period, if you’re acknowledging 2014, over a 4-year period, how long 

does it take to figure out if somebody shows up for work and what 

they’re doing? I mean, in the private sector, it takes me literally 

a very short period of time to do that, and even with the volume 

of employees that we have in the VA system, why can you not do 

that? 

Ms. MCLEOD. They’re doing it on the local level, as far as we 

know. They’re reporting that information— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Here’s what I would like you to do, is for every 

one of your VA facilities, if they’re doing it on a local level, they 

need to report back to this Committee on how they’re keeping track 

of it. Because what I understand, they’re taking surveys. Is that 

correct? 

Ms. MCLEOD. I believe that’s one of the methods that they’re 

using. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So we’re saying fill out a survey on how much you 

may have spent on official time. Do you think that that’s an accurate way, Ms. McLeod, to look at it? 

Ms. MCLEOD. It’s not the most accurate way, no. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Mr. Cox, how would you say to do this? 

Mr. COX. I don’t know that I have an answer on how to do it, 

sir, because, again, the VA’s computer systems and all are very, 

very complicated. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So you’re saying that this is a computer system 

problem? 

Mr. COX. Well, it may or may not be. I won’t identify that. The 

VA is a very complex organization. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So if I get you the computer system of which 

tracking time and attendance we can probably do on the capability 

on an iPhone now, so are you willing to make sure that all your 

covered employees accurately report time to the VA in terms of official use? 

Mr. COX. I believe that our employees, our members, are reporting their time. I believe the GAO study showed very clearly that— 

Mr. MEADOWS. That’s not the question I asked, Mr. Cox. Now, we 

don’t have a problem with communication because we don’t need 

an interpreter, but the question I asked is if I give you the ability, 

will you require all your members to properly document where 

they’re spending their time? 

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Mr. COX. I think our members already do that, sir. 

Mr. MEADOWS. 100 percent of them? Is that your sworn testimony? 

Mr. COX. They report to their managers, they certainly do, sir. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I didn’t say—reporting time and reporting to a 

manager are two different things. So let me ask you this: Is picketing part of official time? 

Mr. COX. No, sir, it is not. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Okay. So you know in North Carolina that you 

had a president of part of your union that was out picketing, and 

she is 100 percent official time, at 11 o’clock on a Thursday. 

Mr. COX. Did you check her record to see if she possibly took annual leave? 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, she didn’t have a record, you know, because—yeah, she could have had leave. 

Mr. COX. Because frequently, our members, if they do those type 

activities, take annual leave. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Do they always do that? 

Mr. COX. They are supposed to, and we train them and we tell 

them that, sir. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right. And so you’re saying that she was actually on annual leave when she was picketing? 

Mr. COX. I can’t speak for that individual because I do not know 

her time and attendance. I can tell you the instructions AFGE 

gives is that those type activities— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Do you see why we have a problem with oversight, though, Mr. Cox? 

Mr. COX. Yes, sir, I do. 

Mr. MEADOWS. And do you see why we need to have a proper— 

because here’s the thing. I will defend your right to be able to use 

official time. But what I will not defend is people being on it 100 

percent of the time. 

When was the last time your contract was negotiated, Mr. Cox? 

Mr. COX. The contract with the VA was negotiated, probably it 

was signed maybe about 3 or 4 years ago. 

Mr. MEADOWS. 2011. I knew the answer. I was just waiting for 

you. 

Mr. COX. 2011. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right. So— 

Mr. COX. Actually, sir, and if you’re aware of the fact, AFGE is 

a very large organization. I do not personally negotiate all those 

contracts. 

Mr. MEADOWS. But this is not your first rodeo. You’ve been reelected. 

Mr. COX. No, sir, it’s not my first rodeo. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So what I’m saying is, is that if you do not have— 

do you have a current contract? 

Mr. COX. I’m sure in our office that we have it. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Are you operating under the 2011 terms? 

Mr. COX. If you’re telling me that, I’m sure that we are, sir, because I delegate those responsibilities down to councils that operate— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Ms. McLeod, are they operating under 2011 

terms? 

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Ms. MCLEOD. Yes. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right. So let me ask you this, Mr. Cox. Assuming that 100 percent of this official time is used for negotiations, 

is that what part of official time would be used for, grievances— 

Mr. COX. It would be part of it. I would say in the VA, sir, a lot 

of official time is spent in quality management, improving work 

processes. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right. Well, I was afraid you were going to go 

there, Mr. Cox, and so let’s take Salisbury. You’ve got more people 

there in Salisbury on 100 percent time, and yet we’ve had a backlog. So the quality of care in Salisbury pales in comparison to 

Charles George VA in my district. As you know, Charles George— 

I’m a huge fan of the VA. Ms. Breyfogle does a great job. And let 

me tell you, all those employees at the VA, they are doing a great 

job. 

But the problem is, official time, they don’t have anybody on 100 

percent in Salisbury who has a real problem with backlog, has 6 

people on 100 percent. Can you explain how they are focused on 

quality at Salisbury with official time? There is no correlation, Mr. 

Cox. 

Mr. COX. Sir, I would say part of those questions would be more 

appropriately directed to the director of the Medical Center at 

Salisbury. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, no, you just went with your sworn testimony, Mr. Cox. 

Mr. COX. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MEADOWS. And you said that all this official time is to drive 

quality. That’s what you just told me. 

Mr. COX. We do a lot of quality work. 

Mr. MEADOWS. How much of it? 

Mr. COX. I can’t give you answers on all of that, sir. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Why can’t you give me an answer? 

Mr. COX. Because the VA is a very large organization— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Okay. Mr. Cox, you have now come to the crux 

of the matter, and so let me be blunt. The time for proper accounting is now. 

And so my charge to you, Ms. McLeod, and to you, Mr. Cox, is 

what we’re going to do is start to look at some direct correlations. 

There is no direct correlation in terms of the amount of official time 

with regards to grievances or quality. I can’t find any linear correlation there. So until you can show me that official time can be 

directly correlated to the quality of health care that our veterans 

deserve, we’ve got to reform it. Wouldn’t you agree with that, Mr. 

Cox, that if they’re spending time and it’s not actually producing 

results, we need to change it? 

Mr. COX. I think that you’re trying to maybe phrase the question 

to get an answer from me, Mr. Chairman, that I’m probably not 

going to answer for you. I believe clearly— 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, you have to answer it. So I mean, you may 

not answer it the way I want you to, but your sworn testimony. 

Mr. COX. And I am giving you an answer, sir. Certainly, I believe 

official time contributes to the quality of care of the veterans at the 

VA. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Okay. Here’s what I’m asking you to do— 

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Mr. COX. Now, if you’re looking for anecdotal things— 

Mr. MEADOWS [continued]. No, no. I’m asking you for qualitative 

data. I don’t care about stories. 

Mr. COX. We are glad to work with the VA, and I’ve done that 

with the VA over and over again. I met with the chair of the VA 

Committee the other day, and we will work continuously to work 

to improve the care of veterans. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right. So here’s my request of you. My request 

of you is, I need a direct correlation between the amount of official 

time and a direct result in terms of training and quality. How long 

will it take you to get me that kind of direct correlation from your 

members? 

Mr. COX. I can’t give you an answer today. 

Mr. MEADOWS. What’s a reasonable time? 

Mr. COX. I will get back with you. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Sixty days. 

Mr. COX. I will give you—I will be glad to respond and to give 

you an answer, sir. It may not be the answer you want, but I will 

give you an answer. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So your response is you’re willing to give me a direct correlation between official time and the results of that official 

time in 60 days? 

Mr. COX. I am certainly telling you I will give you an answer, 

sir. 

Mr. MEADOWS. That’s not an answer to my question. You’re going 

to have to—you can pick the timeframe, but you’re going to have 

to give me a response to that. 

Mr. COX. And before I can give you an answer on the timeframe, 

I certainly would need to consult. There’s over 200 locals and probably a quarter of a million people that AFGE represents. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right. So here’s my charge to you, is in 60 

days either you get me that or you get a very detailed explanation 

on why you can’t get me that. 

Ms. McLeod, are you willing to do that as well? 

Ms. MCLEOD. Yes. 

Mr. MEADOWS. All right. Thank you both. 

I’m going to go ahead and recognize Mr. O’Rourke for his closing 

statement at this point. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you again 

for holding this hearing. 

And I got to tell you, while we may not agree on all our conclusions about the issues at hand, I think we share a common interest 

and goal in ensuring every veteran is served and treated with the 

utmost dignity and respect, gets the greatest quality of care, and 

the best outcomes. 

I also share your frustrations. It’s inexplicable that we have gone 

this long without reliable data on how official time has been measured and how it has been used. It prevents us from being able to 

answer your question about determining the value categorically of 

that official time. 

I’ve also heard you and other Members from both sides say that 

they are not opposed to public sector unions or the representation 

by those unions of employees at the VA and that they are not inherently opposed to official time, and I’m encouraged by that beLeonard.horne on VACREP0180 with DISTILLER

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cause this GAO report shows from both VA employees and by the 

management that are directing those employees and are fulfilling 

our most sacred commitments that they see value in this. 

There are anecdotes pointed out, whether it’s improved scheduling for nurses, or as we mentioned earlier, including substance 

abuse counseling in our mental health care treatment regimens for 

veterans who desperately need that, ensuring that our VA medical 

centers are operating more effectively and efficiently, resolving disputes between management and personnel in a more efficient manner so it doesn’t drag on, it does prevent the effective delivery of 

care to our veterans. Those are all things that I would point to that 

I know official time proves its value in. 

I would also say that it’s U.S. law, going back to the Kennedy 

administration, reaffirmed in Nixon and every successive Congress 

and administration since then that we find public value in this. 

Why do I say this? Because some folks today have talked about official time as though it’s some shameful act that we must hide or 

cover up for or apologize for using more than a certain percentage 

of our time to complete. 

If we agree, and this is a good question for all of us to resolve 

for ourselves, for our constituents, and for the country, if we agree 

official time has value, then we can move on to the other questions 

about how we measure that value, how we measure the amount of 

time spent on official time, and what it does in the delivery of governmental services, in this case, care for veterans. If we don’t believe in the value of official time, if we think it’s a scam and a 

fraud, well then that’s a decision that we can make as well. 

I happen to think, as has almost every Congress and Government of the United States since the Kennedy administration that 

there’s real value in this in delivering the care that veterans depend on from the VA. Whether it’s the National Cemeteries Administration, the Veterans Benefits Administration, or the Veterans 

Health Administration. We just need to do a better job of measuring that. 

When you were out of the room, I asked Ms. McLeod to commit 

to delivering on the VA time accounting system for official time by 

July 2018, as is mentioned in the GAO report. She’s unable to do 

that on the record today, so I’m going to ask in writing from the 

Secretary himself to provide that. I’ll share his answer to the Committee, because I agree with your frustration that we’re not going 

to be able to get the answers to these questions without accounting 

for that time. 

I’ll also add for the record that every recommendation made by 

the GAO in this excellent report was accepted by the VA, and we’re 

going to hold them accountable. That’s our job, and we need to do 

it. 

Lastly, I’ll end where I began the hearing today. Very encouraged in President Trump’s nomination and the Senate’s confirmation of Dr. David Shulkin as our VA Secretary. I know that so 

much of what we want to see rests on his shoulders. I know he’s 

capable of doing this. With our assistance in oversight, I fully believe that he will, and I look forward with working with you to 

make sure that we get this done. 

So thank you for holding the hearing today. 

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Mr. MEADOWS. I thank the gentleman from Texas. The chair recognizes the Chairman of the Subcommittee, the gentleman from 

Texas, Mr. Arrington. 

Mr. ARRINGTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate my 

Subcommittee Ranking Member’s request for a commitment on delivering the tracking system on the designated time. 

There is the law and there is what’s right, and they are not always the same. And I had a law professor at Texas Tech that used 

to talk about, we all have an ain’t-right meter in everybody. And 

I can tell you, at least in West Texas, but I bet 99 percent of the 

people in this room, when we discuss these issues of not being able 

to track the time and allowing a taxpayer-funded Federal employee 

to spend 100 percent of their time on union activities, I bet your 

ain’t-right meter is pegged just like mine. 

It’s just not right, especially with the context of all the challenges 

to meet the needs of our veterans. I had a lady last night introduce 

me. I was surprised that she introduced me and bragged on my 

time or my—my appointment, rather, on the Committee, and she 

cried, and she said: Please, please make sure that we are served 

well. And I just can’t, in good conscience, tell her in this case that 

she is. 

According to the AFGE, Mr. Cox, representational work includes, 

quote, ‘‘flexible work hours, developing telework practices, and providing workers with a voice in determining working conditions.’’ 

While I appreciate the need for that, where’s the voice for the veteran? Where’s the voice for the veteran in determining the conditions under which they receive excellent service and care? Where’s 

the voice in your process for the taxpayer to sit at the table and 

say, this ain’t-right to have 100 percent of somebody’s time spent 

on union activities when hardworking middle class, working class 

folks from West Texas are paying the freight. 

Thank you for your time, thank you for your insights, and thank 

you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I thank the gentleman from Texas. 

I want to thank all of you. 

I want to remind you, as many of the Members have said that 

they’ve asked questions for the record that need for you to get back 

to them on, and so you have 2 weeks to respond to this particular 

Committee for supplying answers to those questions, and so I 

would like to mention that. 

Let me close by saying this: Mr. O’Rourke and I agree that there 

is—the official time, certainly, is of benefit and has its useful tool, 

but just like with anything, when used in excess, it does become 

abusive and at the expense of something else. 

And so Mr. Cox, let me be very clear, when I’m looking at the 

quality of health care for the veterans served out of Salisbury 

versus the quality of care of the veterans served out of Charles 

George and the amount official time that’s spent in Salisbury 

versus the amount of official time that’s spent in my district, there 

is no correlation. In fact, Charles George is one of the best, if not 

the best, VA hospital in the system. 

And so to suggest to this Committee that 100 percent official 

time is sometimes somehow providing a result in Salisbury, North 

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Carolina, the superior to Asheville, North Carolina does not correspond to your argument here today. 

So here’s what I’m going to do, Ms. McLeod, and you need to 

make sure that we look at this. I’m looking forward to both of your 

responses, but we’re going to go from this Committee to some of the 

facilities, and we’re going to ask the hard questions about the official use and how much training and quality support has actually 

been there, because we can’t afford to get this wrong, and quite 

frankly, we’ve been getting it wrong for far too long. 

And so today is a somber moment in terms of what you want to 

argue about in terms of official time, but it really comes down to 

one thing. We have a responsibility to serve our veterans, and any 

abuse of a system is not only not tolerated but is going to be looked 

at in such a finite way that we will correct it, and I look forward 

to your recommendations on how we correct it, Mr. Cox, and how 

we make sure that it’s fair and equitable, because I’m sure that 

you’re not suggesting here that we don’t serve our veterans properly. Is that correct? 

Mr. COX. I think we take good care of our veterans, sir. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Well, I’ve got a lot of veterans who would disagree with you, Mr. Cox. 

And so with that, I want to thank you all for being here for your 

testimony, and if there is no further before the Subcommittees, 

they stand adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 2:45 p.m., the Subcommittees were adjourned.] 

Leonard.horne on VACREP0180 with DISTILLER

(41) 

1GAO, UNION ACTIVITIES: VA Could Better Track the Amount of Official Time Used by 

Employees, GAO 17 105 (Washington, D.C.: Jan. 24, 2017). 2 Under the statute, official time is provided as a statutory right for such activities as negotiating collective bargaining agreements and authorized participation in proceedings before the 

Federal Labor Relations Authority, but for other purposes allowed under the statute must be 

negotiated between the agency and the union in an agreed-upon amount deemed reasonable, 

necessary, and in the public interest. Official time may not be used for internal union business, 

such as membership drives or collecting dues. See 5 U.S.C. § 7131. Throughout this statement, 

we use the term ‘‘representational activities’’ to refer to those union activities for which employees may use official time. 3Office of Personnel Management, Labor-Management Relations in the Executive Branch (October 2014). In addition, GAO previously reported on the extent to which 10 selected agencies 

used official time, including the Department of Veterans Affairs, and the report includes fiscal 

year 2013 official time data for selected agencies. See GAO, Labor Relations Activities: Actions 

Needed to Improve Tracking and Reporting of the Use and Cost of Official Time, GAO 15 9 

(Washington, D.C.: Oct. 23, 2014). 4 According to the 2014 OPM report, the rate of official time at VA during fiscal year 2012 

was lower compared to several other large agencies such as the Departments of the Treasury 

and Transportation. The rate of official time use indicates the number of official time hours expended per bargaining unit employee and allows for meaningful comparisons of official time 

usage among agencies. 

A P P E N D I X 

Prepared Statement of Cindy Brown Barnes 

UNION ACTIVITIES 

VA SHOULD IMPROVE THE WAY IT TRACKS THE AMOUNT OF OFFICIAL TIME USED BY

ITS EMPLOYEES

Chairmen Arrington and Meadows, Ranking Members O’Rourke and Connolly, 

and Members of the Subcommittees: 

I am pleased to be here today to discuss our January 2017 report on the use of 

official time and space for union representational activities at the Department of 

Veterans Affairs (VA). 1 The Federal Service Labor-Management Relations Statute 

allows federal employees to use official time to perform certain union representational activities, such as negotiating a collective bargaining agreement and processing grievances, in lieu of their regularly assigned work. 2 Employees using official 

time for such activities are treated as if they are in a duty status and paid accordingly. According to a 2014 Office of Personnel Management (OPM) report, the 

amount of official time used by federal employees for union representational activities increased from approximately 2.9 million hours to over 3.4 million from fiscal 

year 2008 to fiscal year 2012. 3 For VA in particular, the OPM report shows that 

unions represented over 250,000 bargaining unit employees in fiscal year 2012, and 

these employees spent about 1.1 million hours performing union representational 

activities on official time. 4 VA has negotiated master agreements with five national 

unions-National Association of Government Employees, American Federation of 

Government Employees, National Nurses United, National Federation of Federal 

Employees, and Service Employees International Union. 

My statement summarizes the findings from our January 2017 report, which addresses (1) the extent to which VA tracks official time, (2) what is known about the 

amount of designated space used for union representational activities at selected VA 

facilities, and (3) the views of VA managers and union officials on the benefits and 

challenges of employees using official time. 

In that report, we reviewed official time data provided to us by VA for fiscal years 

2014 and 2015, which were the most recent years for which data were available. 

We assessed the reliability of the data by reviewing relevant agency documentation 

about the data and the systems that produced them and interviewing knowledgeable 

agency officials, among other steps. Based on our assessment, we found the data 

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42 

5 VA is organized into three administrations-the National Cemetery Administration, the Veterans Benefits Administration, and the Veterans Health Administration. 6See GAO, Standards for Internal Control in the Federal Government, GAO 14 704G (Washington, D.C.: September 2014). 7 At most facilities, we interviewed more than one group of local union officials. For purposes 

of discussing views on the benefits and challenges of employees using official time in our report, 

we considered the responses across all of the groups of local union officials we interviewed at 

each facility and refer to the groups collectively as one group for each facility. 8We conducted our interviews with selected facilities from May 2016 to July 2016. One of the 

two facilities using ETA was scheduled to implement VATAS soon after the time of our interviews. 

were not sufficiently reliable to determine the amount of official time used by VA 

employees and the purposes for which it was used. As such, data we present in our 

report in this regard are for illustrative purposes only. We also selected a nongeneralizable sample of five VA facilities in four states based on the number of bargaining unit employees at the facilities and to ensure representation from the three 

VA administrations, as well as from the different unions representing employees at 

VA. 5 We reviewed collective bargaining agreements (CBA) at the national level and 

local agreements for the selected facilities; VA policies and guidance; and relevant 

federal laws, regulations, and government standards for internal controls. 6 We also 

analyzed VA information on designated union space, which we determined was sufficiently reliable for our purposes. In addition, at each of the five selected facilities, 

we interviewed officials about how official time is recorded at the facility level, and 

we held group interviews with five groups of VA managers and five groups of union 

officials to obtain their views on the benefits and challenges of official time. 7 We 

also interviewed officials from five unions at the national level and officials at VA 

and OPM. A more detailed explanation of our methodology is available in our full 

report. The work upon which this statement is based was conducted in accordance 

with generally accepted government auditing standards. 

VA Has No Standardized Way for Facilities to Record and Calculate Official 

Time, which Hampers Its Ability to Accurately Track the Amount of Official Time Used Agency-Wide 

There is no standardized way for VA facilities to record the amount of official time 

employees use for representational activities because there are currently two time 

and attendance systems being used across the agency that capture this information 

differently. In 2013, VA began implementing its new Veterans Affairs Time and Attendance System (VATAS) at some facilities to replace its older system, the Enhanced Time and Attendance (ETA) System. VA expects to complete its rollout of 

VATAS in July 2018, and as of September 2016, approximately 50 percent of VA 

facilities and about one-third of employees (120,000) had transitioned to VATAS. For 

the five facilities we selected, three had transitioned to VATAS, and two were still 

using ETA at the time of our visits. 8 While VATAS provides specific codes for timekeepers to record time for various union representational activities, according to VA 

officials, ETA lacks such codes, and timekeepers can record the use of official time 

for union representational activities under the remarks section of employees’ time 

and attendance records. VA officials further said recording time this way does not 

always make clear the purpose for which official time is being used. Beyond these 

inconsistencies in recording official time in VATAS and ETA, we found that three 

of the selected facilities did not record official time in either of these systems. Two 

of the facilities under VATAS maintained records on the use of official time outside 

the system, and the one facility under ETA did not document the use of official time 

at all. The inconsistent recording of information raises questions about VA’s ability 

to monitor the use of official time. 

VATAS could help standardize the way individual facilities record information on 

official time and improve VA’s ability to monitor its use; however, we also found VA 

has not provided consistent training to employees on how to record official time in 

the new system. The lack of consistent training on how to record official time in 

VATAS is due in part to the fact that VATAS is being implemented in phases and 

training is being updated throughout the course of implementation. For instance, 

timekeepers and other officials from the three selected facilities that had implemented VATAS said that recording official time was not covered during their 

VATAS training, and these facilities were not using the codes in VATAS to record 

official time because they were not aware of them. As a result, these facilities continued to use different approaches to record official time and documented different 

information. According to federal internal control standards, management should 

communicate quality information that enables personnel to perform key roles, and 

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43 

9GAO 14 704G. 

10 According to VA officials, the LMR Official Time Tracking System is also used to track 

agency-wide labor-management relations activities more broadly at the national level, including 

the development of related directives and policies. 11Facilities may submit more than one official time entry in the LMR Official Time Tracking 

System if multiple unions represent employees at the facility. 12GAO 14 704G. 

it should provide appropriate training to personnel for carrying out their responsibilities. 9

In 2016, VA took several steps to provide better guidance to facilities on how to 

record official time in VATAS, including providing face-to-face training and making 

the information available on the VA network. We recommended in our January 2017 

report that the Secretary of Veterans Affairs direct the Assistant Secretary for 

Human Resources and Administration to increase efforts to ensure timekeepers at 

all facilities receive training and consistent guidance on recording official time in 

VATAS. VA concurred and said it has revised its policy to include specific directions 

to facility human resource offices to begin recording official time in VATAS once it 

has been implemented at the facility. VA set a target completion date of April 2017 

in response to our recommendation. 

To provide agency-wide official time data to OPM, which reports on the use of official time for representational activities government-wide, VA’s Office of Labor-Management Relations (LMR) annually collects and compiles data from individual facilities and shares the aggregated data with OPM. VA’s Office of LMR uses its LMR 

Official Time Tracking System to obtain information from individual facilities on the 

amount of official time used by employees. 10 The LMR system is separate and distinct from VA’s two time and attendance systems and provides the Office of LMR 

with a centralized way to collect official time data from individual facilities, among 

other purposes. To collect official time data, each year the Office of LMR sends an 

email to facilities with a link to access the LMR system. A management representative at each facility then manually enters the information into the LMR system. 11

The actual amount of official time used by employees across VA cannot be easily 

determined because VA offers facilities various options for calculating and reporting 

official time data in the LMR system. Federal internal control standards prescribe 

that management design control activities so that events are completely and accurately recorded. 12 VA allows facilities to use written records, estimates, samples, or 

surveys of official time hours used, or any combination of these methods, to determine the amount of official time used by employees at their facility when entering 

information into the LMR system. These different methods of calculating official 

time result in inconsistent information. Without reliable information from facilities 

on official time, VA management cannot monitor the use of official time and manage 

VA’s resources effectively. We recommended that prior to the agency-wide implementation of VATAS, VA standardize the methods used by facilities for determining 

the amount of official time used by encouraging facilities to rely on time and attendance records. VA concurred and said its Office of Human Resources and Administration will develop a memo directing facilities to rely on time and attendance records 

when calculating the amount of official time used by employees at the facility level 

and set a target completion date of April 2017. 

Once implemented agency-wide, VATAS could provide VA with an alternative to 

collecting official time data through its LMR system. An official from VA’s Financial 

Services Center (FSC) stated that FSC currently has the capability to generate reports in VATAS on the amount of official time used at individual facilities. The official added that once all facilities are using VATAS, FSC could generate one report 

with official time data, thereby eliminating the need for using the LMR system. 

However, an official from VA’s Office of LMR was not aware of FSC’s ability to 

produce such reports and said that the Office of LMR planned to continue using the 

LMR system to collect data on official time. If VA does not obtain more consistent 

data on the amount of official time used by employees, it will not be able to accurately track the amount of official time used by employees to ensure public resources are being used appropriately. In preparation for the full implementation of 

VATAS, we recommended that VA take steps to transition from using the LMR system to VATAS to collect and compile information on the amount of official time used 

agency-wide. VA concurred and said the Office of LMR will coordinate with FSC to 

collect and compile data on official time and set a target completion date of December 2018. 

Designated Space for Union Representational Activities Comprised Less 

Than 1 Percent of the Overall Space at Selected Facilities 

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44 

13 At a selected facility with two local unions, one of the unions did not have designated space. 

Rather, that union’s president had her own office where she performed both union representational activities and non-union job duties. This union president was scheduled to spend 100 percent of her worktime on non-union job duties and requested approval from her supervisor to 

use official time on a case-by-case basis. 

We found that the amount of designated space for union representational activities at selected facilities varied, but in all cases comprised less than 1 percent of 

the overall space available. Designated space for representational activities at the 

five selected facilities consisted primarily of office space, which was occupied by one 

or more union officials. 13 In addition to office space, designated space for union activities included conference rooms and storage rooms at some of the selected facilities. Further, VA provided unions at all five selected facilities with basic office furniture and equipment, such as desks, chairs, filing cabinets, computers, printers, 

and fax machines. In some cases, union officials said they purchased additional office equipment using union funds. 

Union officials from three of five groups we interviewed said that limited space 

for representational activities was a challenge. Specifically, union officials from 

those three groups said there was not always sufficient privacy to ensure confidentiality for employees, especially in cases where designated space for representational 

activities was shared by multiple union officials. A VA official from the Office of 

LMR said that, in general, certain VA facilities may have space constraints depending on where they are located, the types of services provided, and the number of 

veterans served. VA does not track information on the costs associated with unions’ 

use of designated space across the agency, and we were not able to obtain consistent 

information on costs from selected facilities. 

VA Managers and Union Officials at Selected Facilities Cited Similar Benefits and Different Challenges Associated with the Use of Official Time 

VA managers and union officials from groups we interviewed at selected facilities 

cited similar benefits of employees’ use of official time for representational activities. 

Specifically, managers and union officials from most groups we interviewed said 

that employees’ use of official time improved decision making and helped them resolve problems at their respective VA facilities, and some believed it improved relationships between management and labor (see fig. 1). For example, the use of official 

time may help prevent problems from evolving into formal actions, such as grievances against management or disciplinary actions against employees. In addition, 

according to union officials at the national and local levels, employees’ use of official 

time also facilitates the whistleblower process at VA by providing an avenue for employees to report issues or concerns. 

Managers and union officials across selected facilities identified different challenges associated with employees’ use of official time. Specifically, managers from 

all five groups we interviewed cited staffing and scheduling challenges associated 

with employees’ use of official time. Managers said it is sometimes difficult to accommodate such employees’ use of official time because it may detract from these 

employees’ non-union responsibilities. Union officials from three of five groups we 

interviewed said they experienced challenges with limited flexibility in terms of 

when official time may be used, and union officials from four groups said they used 

varying amounts of personal time to conduct union representational activities. 

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Insert offset folio 1 here 29369.001
45 

Chairmen Arrington and Meadows, Ranking Members O’Rourke and Connolly, 

and Members of the Subcommittees, this concludes my prepared remarks. I would 

be happy to answer any questions you may have. 

GAO Contact and Staff Acknowledgments 

For further information regarding this testimony, please contact Cindy Brown 

Barnes at (202) 512–7215 or brownbarnesc@gao.gov. Contact points for our Offices 

of Congressional Relations and Public Affairs may be found on the last page of this 

statement. Individuals who made key contributions to this testimony include Mary 

Crenshaw (Assistant Director), David Chrisinger, Sheila McCoy, Meredith Moore, 

Jean McSween, Mimi Nguyen, James Rebbe, Catherine Roark, and Almeta Spencer. 

This is a work of the U.S. government and is not subject to copyright protection 

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U.S. Government Accountability Office, 441 G Street NW, Room 7814, Washington, DC 20548 

f 

Prepared Statement of Kimberly Perkins Mcleod 

Good Morning, Chairmen Arrington and Meadows, Ranking Members O’Rourke 

and Connolly, and distinguished members of the subcommittees. Thank you for the 

opportunity to discuss the progress that the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) 

is making towards accounting for ‘‘official time’’ to provide the best possible service 

to our Nation’s Veterans. 

For context purposes, the Federal Service Labor-Management Relations Statute 

(Statute) at 5 United States Code § 7131, governs how executive branch agencies 

treat official time. The Statute provides for official time for union representatives 

to perform certain union activities. Official time is duty time during which a bargaining-unit employee (an employee represented by a union) may perform representational activities in lieu of the employee’s management-assigned work, without loss 

of pay or charge to leave. The Statute provides official time to negotiate collective 

bargaining agreements and to participate in proceedings before the Federal Labor 

Relations Authority. In addition, the Statute requires management and its unions 

to negotiate amounts of official time which the parties agree are ‘‘reasonable, necessary, and in the public interest.’’ Official time negotiations are mandatory, apply 

to most Federal agencies, and include provisions relating to the amount, allocation, 

scheduling, and location of official time. 

VA has negotiated varying amounts of official time in both national agreements 

and local agreements. Many VA facilities have local official time agreements and 

practices specific to their location. Official time arrangements are frequently distinctively local and reflect the relationship and history between local management and 

local union officials. It should be noted that while management has the right to negotiate the allocation and use of official time by union representatives, in ordinary 

circumstances, the Statute does not give management the right to select which employees serve as union representatives. 

Periodically, the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) formally requests the official time data from every executive department and agency across the Federal 

Government. It is each agency’s responsibility to report official time hours used by 

employees who perform representational functions. In the past, VA has produced an 

annual report of agency-wide official time use and submitted the report to OPM. As 

you are aware, the recent U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) report, 

dated February 3, 2017, regarding VA official time use, describes how VA has historically not implemented a uniform and standardized official time reporting system. 

Local VA facilities have reported their official time use to the VA Central Office in 

various ways, including written records, estimates, samples, surveys, or combinations of these methods. 

The GAO report notes that VA is now using two timekeeping systems. The legacy 

system, the Enhanced Time and Attendance System (ETA), remains in effect at 

some facilities; other facilities have implemented VA’s new time and attendance system, commonly referred to as the VA Time and Attendance System (VATAS). ETA, 

the legacy system, does not have codes for employees and supervisors to record the 

local use of official time. VATAS, however, does have that capability. 

As of September 2016, approximately 50 percent of VA facilities and about onethird of VA employees (120,000) had transitioned to VATAS, with its official timerecording capabilities. The full VATAS multi-facility rollout is scheduled to be completed by July 2018. 

The GAO report includes three recommendations to improve VA’s ability to accurately track employees’ use of official time. VA concurs with GAO’s recommendations. In response to GAO’s first recommendation, VA has updated and expanded 

timekeeper training on the collection and reporting of official time in its final ongoing VATAS nationwide roll out. Training now includes consistent guidance on the 

proper method of inputting official time codes into VATAS. The GAO report notes 

that, even in facilities already using VATAS, some timekeepers are still not properly 

using VATAS codes to record official time use. VA is offering additional training to 

those facilities where VATAS has been implemented, but where particularized training on official time entries was not separately addressed. VA is also preparing an 

additional training video concerning official time, to ensure that all timekeepers and 

supervisors understand the importance of maintaining accurate and complete official time records. In addition, VA is discussing the proper method to record official 

time during its monthly ‘‘VATAS Connections’’ call with payroll offices. VA’s Office 

of Labor Management Relations will also be reinforcing the importance of complete 

Leonard.horne on VACREP0180 with DISTILLER

47 

and accurate recordkeeping during its monthly call to local human resources professionals nationwide. 

In response to GAO’s second recommendation, VA is providing updated written 

instructions to all of its facilities, seeking to establish and enforce a standardized 

approach to recording and reporting official time across VA. VA also intends to initiate bargaining with its national unions to come to an agreement with them on a 

standard approach to have union officials request, record, and report their use of 

official time in VATAS. 

In response to GAO’s third recommendation, VA’s Office of Human Resources and 

Administration is preparing updated policy guidance to all VA facilities concerning 

the recording of local official time. For those facilities where VATAS is already operational, timekeepers and supervisors are instructed to use VATAS to record the use 

of official time. The four reporting categories available on VATAS will mirror the 

categories OPM uses in its government-wide official time reporting. Each category 

will include a description of the activities that fall within that category using the 

identical descriptions provided by OPM-ensuring a standard VA future recording 

and reporting approach. As VA transitions to a single, upgraded timekeeping system, official time use will become more transparent and official time reporting will 

be substantially more accurate. Recording and compiling official time use in VATAS 

will result in a number of positive outcomes. VA’s standardized approach will guarantee accurate, timely, and reliable accounting of official time use across the Agency. Relying on VATAS, VA will be able to quickly compile and report official time 

data to OPM, Congress, and to other government agencies; and will have a substantially enhanced ability to monitor use of official time at individual VA facilities. 

In summary, VA is incorporating GAO’s recommendations in its operations and 

the result will be improved, standardized, comprehensive, and reliable accounting 

of official time use at VA. VA estimates that it will fully incorporate GAO’s first 

two recommendations by April 2017. VA hopes to complete the implementation of 

GAO’s third recommendation by July 2018. The Department has taken the opportunity to develop a strategy to move forward and meet with our labor partners in 

order to discuss ways to address how we collect and report official time, as well as 

how we ensure that official time is used to enhance the labor management relationship at the local and national level. By implementing a robust official time system 

using VATAS, the Department and its labor partners can ensure that official time 

is properly managed, recorded and analyzed in order to support VA’s mission. 

This concludes my testimony, and I am happy to answer your questions. 

f 

Prepared Statement of J. David Cox, Sr. 

Chairman Meadows, Chairman Arrington, Ranking Member O’Rourke and Ranking Member Connolly: My name is J. David Cox, and I am the National President 

of the American Federation of Government Employees, AFL–CIO (AFGE). On behalf 

of the 700,000 federal and District of Columbia employees AFGE represents, I thank 

you for inviting me to testify today on the use of official time for union activities 

at the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

Background 

On January 17, 1962, President John F. Kennedy signed Executive Order 10988, 

Employee-Management Cooperation in the Federal Service, which gave federal employees the right to unionize and bargain collectively. Seven years later, on October 

29, 1969, President Richard Nixon issued Executive Order 11491, which reaffirmed 

and expanded those rights. 

In 1978, Congress enacted the Civil Service Reform Act (CSRA) of 1978 which 

states clearly the public interest in labor unions and collective bargaining in the federal sector. The language of the law includes the following: 

The Congress finds that- 

(1) experience in both private and public employment indicates that the statutory 

protection of the right of employees to organize, bargain collectively, and participate 

through labor organizations of their own choosing in decisions which affect them- 

(A) safeguards the public interest, 

(B) contributes to the effective conduct of public business, and 

(C) facilitates and encourages the amicable settlements of disputes between employees and their employers involving conditions of employment; and 

(2) the public interest demands the highest standards of employee performance 

and the continued development and implementation of modern and progressive 

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1https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/7101 

2https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/7131 

work practices to facilitate and improve employee performance and the efficient accomplishment of the operations of the Government. 

Therefore, labor organizations and collective bargaining in the civil service are in 

the public interest. 1

The CSRA went on to require federal employee unions to provide a wide range 

of representational services for all employees in their collective bargaining units, including those who choose not to join the union, not to pay dues. Under this ‘‘open 

shop’’ arrangement, federal employee unions are also forbidden from collecting any 

fair share payments or fees from non members for the services which the union has 

a legal obligation to provide. 

In order to fulfill unions’ legal obligation to provide the same services to those 

who pay as well as those who choose not to pay, the Executive Orders and the 

CSRA instructs agencies to bargain with federal employee unions to determine a 

reasonable amount of ‘‘official time’’ to carry out these duties. These legal provisions 

have produced an efficient and effective mechanism for the fulfillment of the duty 

of fair representation. Federal employees agree to serve as volunteer employee representatives, and agencies allow them to use a reasonable amount of official time 

to engage in representational activities while on duty status. 

The representation activities that these elected volunteers may engage in while 

in duty status are limited, and include: 

• Developing systems to allow workers to perform their duties from alternative 

sites, thus increasing the effectiveness and efficiency of government; • Participating in management-initiated efforts to improve work processes; and • Creating fair promotion procedures that require that personnel selections be 

based on merit, in order to allow employees to advance their careers; • Establishing flexible work hours that enhance agencies’ service to the public 

while allowing employees some control over their schedules; • Setting procedures that protect employees from on-the-job hazards; • Enforcing protections from unlawful discrimination in employment; • Providing affected workers with a voice in determining their working conditions. 

I want to emphasize, Messrs. Chairmen, that the list above, while not exhaustive, 

does not include union organizing, the union’s political activities, or the conduct of 

internal union business, all of which are prohibited by law to be undertaken during 

hours designated as official time. 

The CSRA provides that the amount of official time deemed reasonable 

for negotiations and other representational responsibilities that may be used is 

limited to that which the agency and its unions agree is ‘‘reasonable, necessary, and 

in the public interest’’. 2 The actual amount of time permitted to any employee representative is determined in the course of formal negotiations that follow established legal regulations. The notion that agencies have ever provided any kind of 

open-ended quantity of official time is erroneous. There is always a cap or maximum 

amount authorized by the agency and set forth in the collective bargaining agreement. Under AFGE’s current collective bargaining agreement with the Department 

of Veterans’ Affairs, local union officials are allocated official time under a formula 

of no more than 4.25 hours per bargaining unit employee per calendar year times 

the number of employees the union is legally required to represent at each facility. 

This number represents an annual maximum. 

To protect the taxpayer and the independence and integrity of the union, the statute clearly states that all non-representational activities of the union must be performed while in a non-duty status. That is, the same individual who has volunteered 

and been elected by his or her co-workers to provide representational services cannot do any of the following while on ‘‘official time’’ or while in duty status: 

• solicitation of membership; • internal union meetings; • elections of officers; and • partisan political activities. 

I want to emphasize, Mr. Chairman, that official time may not be used for the 

above activities. I can assure you that AFGE’s elected representatives receive extensive training and guidance on what activities are permitted and what activities are 

forbidden on official time. We take very seriously both our legal obligation to represent all members of our bargaining units, and the legal prohibitions against engaging in non-representational activities. AFGE representatives know the difference 

and act accordingly. 

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3http://gao.gov/assets/690/682250.pdf page 19. 

4http://gao.gov/assets/690/682250.pdf page 20. 

Finally, federal employees are permitted to file appeals of personnel actions outside the scope of the union’s negotiated collective bargaining agreement. Examples 

include appeals through an agency’s internal administrative grievance system or 

Equal Employment Opportunity programs, appeals to the Merit Systems Protection 

Board (MSPB) for adverse personnel actions such as suspensions, removals, and reductions-in-force, appeals to the Department of Labor (DOL) and/or the MSPB for 

violations of veterans’ preference rules, appeals to DOL for workers’ compensation, 

and appeals to 

OPM for violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act. These statutes provide a reasonable amount of time to employees and their representatives to file such appeals. 

Official Time: A Compromise that Works 

The provision of a reasonable amount of official time for representational duties 

in the federal sector reflected a choice from among the variety of arrangements that 

existed in the private sector labor-management relations and collective bargaining 

agreements. The alternative to ‘‘official time’’ in private sector collective bargaining 

agreements has been to charge employees who exercise the right not to pay dues 

to the union a ‘‘fair share fee’’ to cover the costs a union bears in enforcing its contract with an employer. In these cases, the union uses the fees to hire ‘‘business 

agents’’ to preform representational duties. There may still be elected shop stewards 

who convey information to business agents, but the actual costs of representation 

are born by the union and paid for by both dues and fair share fees. 

GAO’s Report: Official Time Also Makes the Government More Efficient, Effective, and Gives Value to the Taxpayer 

At the Department of Veterans’ Affairs (DVA), employee representatives are able 

to work together with agency managers to use their time, talent, and resources to 

improve the delivery of services to veterans. The January 2017 Government Accountability Office (GAO) report we are here to discuss today (Union Activities: VA 

Could Better Track the Amount of Official Time Used by Employees) found time and 

again that elected employee representatives who worked with VA managers on 

workplace and patient issues brought value because of the deep commitment to veterans’ care that AFGE shares with DVA. ‘‘Managers and union officials from most 

groups we interviewed said that employees’ use of official time improved decision 

making and helped them resolve problems at their respective VA facilities, and 

some believed it improved relationships between management and labor.’’ 3

The GAO report found that in two out of three facilities investigated, 80% of the 

groups of managers interviewed agreed that employee representatives improved decision making and helped resolve problems, and 60% of the manager groups agreed 

that the union helped improve relationships. 4 Our members’ only goal is to deliver 

excellent care and services to our nation’s veterans. Excellent, highly satisfied and 

dedicated employees are the VA’s most important resource and reasonable amounts 

of official time allows employees to participate directly in agency decisions that affect them. And the data in the GAO report confirm this to be true. 

It must be emphasized that nowhere in the GAO report is there any suggestion 

or allegation of union wrongdoing with regard to the use of official time in DVA. 

GAO found no union failure to report information and no instance where information reported was inaccurate. Rather the GAO found simply that DVA failed to collect the data properly. 

Private industry has known for years that a healthy and respectful relationship 

between labor and management improves productivity, innovation, quality, and customer service and is often the key to survival in a competitive market. It is not uncommon for healthcare companies in the private sector to bargain with unions over 

paid time for union officials to be released from duty to work on quality improvement, safety and other workplace matters. Kaiser Permanente, Johns Hopkins Hospital, the Mayo Clinic, the University of Chicago Hospital, New York Presbyterian, 

Cedars-Sinai—the crown jewels of America’s private healthcare system—all have 

unionized employees. 

No effort to improve governmental performance—whether it’s called reinvention, 

restructuring, or reorganizing—will thrive in the long run if labor and management 

have an adversarial relationship or are precluded from engaging in a mutually respectful exchange of ideas. The reasonable use of official time provides the means, 

not only in DVA but also throughout the federal government by which employees 

and their elected representatives participate in the improvement of DVA services. 

In these times, it is essential for management and labor to develop and maintain 

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a stable and productive working relationship. We must continue to allow employees 

to choose their representatives who will interact and work with DVA management. 

This is crucial if we are to continue to improve the delivery of DVA services to veterans. Employee representatives and managers have used official time through labormanagement partnerships to transform the labor management relationship from an 

adversarial stand-off into a robust alliance. And that just makes sense. If workers 

and managers are communicating effectively, workplace problems that would otherwise escalate into costly litigation can be dealt with promptly and more informally. 

And that is exactly what happens in DVA. Absent the union’s ability to resolve a 

misunderstanding or dispute quickly at the local level, managers and employees 

have few options. If an employee leaves or is terminated because of a misunderstanding that could easily have been handled through a union dispute resolution 

process, DVA bears the costs of recruitment and training of a replacement, a costly, 

disruptive and unnecessary outcome that a good labor-management relationship can 

and does prevent on a routine basis. 

Routinely, we see examples of official time under labor-management partnerships 

or forums used to bring closure to workplace disputes between the DVA and an employee or group of employees. GAO’s findings support this-it found that VA managers and union officials confirm that including the union pre-decisionally in the 

process of considering management decisions improved the decision-making process. 

The GAO study also cited that the union and management worked together on 

nurse scheduling at one facility with the goal of improving staff retention and morale. Staff retention and increased morale among VA employees is critical to being 

able to hire and retain outstanding staff to improve quality treatment of veterans. 

It is the inclusion of front-line employees through their elected employee representatives that make these kind of changes not only more frequent, but also more successful and more likely to result in better service to our veterans. 

Healthier Labor Management Relations in the Federal Government Also 

Produce Cost Savings in Reduced Administrative Expenses 

Employee representatives use official time for joint labor-management activities 

that address operational, mission-enabling issues that improve VA’s service to veterans. Patient safety initiatives are a prime example of this type of work, and the 

VHA’s prominence and success in this area is a source of pride for AFGE. Official 

time is allowed for activities such as designing and delivering joint training of employees on work-related subjects; and introduction of new programs and work methods that are initiated by the agency or by the union. As examples, such changes 

may be technical training of health care providers or jointly inspecting the workplace for hazards; participating in VA-wide improvement initiatives like MyVA 

which examined a multitude of ways to improve veterans’ care, veterans benefit 

processing and other VA system improvements. 

Employee representatives use official time for routine and unusual problem-solving of emergent and chronic workplace issues. For example, when they participate 

in VA health and safety programs which emphasize the importance of effective safety and health management systems in the prevention and control of workplace injuries and patient safety, representatives have been granted official time by their 

managers. Another example comes from the important area of patient safety. The 

reasonable use of official time also allows employee representatives to alert management to issues reported to the them without disclosing the identity of the employee 

who made the disclosure, issues that may be a matter of life and death to patients. 

Employee representatives have also used allotted official time to ensure that employees are hired and promoted fairly. This work leads to better recruitment and 

retention of desperately needed front- line health care to better care for veterans. 

Further Findings in the GAO Report 

The GAO Report found that the use of official time by employee representatives 

was valuable to making VA a great place to work and improving the delivery of care 

to veterans. In particular, the GAO report found that the use of official time by 

elected employee representatives: improved agency decision making, improved conflict resolution and led to better, less adversarial outcomes. The use of official time 

improved the relationship between VA management and employees. While some 

challenges in staffing were identified in GAO’s report, it is important to note that 

release from duty is always coordinated and agreed to by VA management when 

employee representatives participate in workplace matters. Improved employee engagement is a goal of the federal government overall and also of the VA in particular. Scaling back the involvement of employee representatives under the guise 

of alleged ‘‘government efficiency’’ would be a mistake, a short-sighted policy which 

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5http://gao.gov/assets/690/682250.pdf page 13 

6https://www.fedscope.opm.gov/ibmcognos/cgi-bin/cognosisapi.dll 

would deprive the agency of the valuable contributions front line employees make 

to the VA through the use of official time. 

The challenges and issues cited by GAO are solely related to VA’s administrative 

decisions about how to track official time. AFGE supports the accurate collection of 

data. It would be inappropriate, however, to use any failure on the part of the VA 

in the implementation of its internal management systems as a basis to disturb existing law and practices with regard to official time. As I stated previously, the GAO 

report found that the use of official time was value added to the agency and any 

bookkeeping failure on the part of DVA management would not be a legitimate basis 

on which to undermine the valuable contributions of employee representatives in 

the workplace. 

The GAO report confirms that official time is a valuable tool for facilitating employee input into the shared goal of improving the VA. Despite the numerous investigations undertaken by Congress, GAO, VA, and VA’s OIG and other entities, the 

use of negotiated time for employee representatives has never been found to be connected in any way to veteran waitlists, slow processing of veteran claims or any of 

the challenges identified over the years in VA. Instead, the facts show that official 

time is valued by both VA management and employees for problem-solving and improving the delivery of care and services to veterans. Participation of employees’ 

elected representatives in improving the VA and adding value to VA and the whole 

federal government needs to continue so we can all accomplish the goal of providing 

the best services. We urge Congress and the Administration not to undermine a system that has a proven track record of success in improving government. Inclusion 

of employees’ perspectives in efforts to make the VA a better workplace and a better 

healthcare system have proven their worth, and I ask that the committees present 

today recognize the importance of permitting this important work to continue. 

Opposition to the use of Official Time 

Those who would like there to be no union representation in the Department of 

Veterans Affairs or in any other workplace, public or private, have tried to suggest 

that VA’s understaffing problems could be eliminated if only there were no one involved in representation of bargaining unit employees. Of course, the numbers make 

this assertion ridiculous. It is estimated that the VA has in excess of 45,000 unfilled 

medical positions nationwide. Even if we assume that GAO’s concerns about VA’s 

recordkeeping with respect to the use of official time are valid and VA has perhaps 

understated the number of hours used annually, the numbers reported for 2015 are 

small: approximately 2.7 hours annually per bargaining unit employee. 5 The number of hours reported to have been spent on official time throughout DVA, including 

the Veterans Health Administration (VHA), the Veterans Benefits Administration 

(VBA), and the National Cemetery Administration (NCA) was equivalent to no more 

than 508 FTE for bargaining units of nearly 300,000 in an agency with 350,000 employees. 

To attempt to place the blame for VA understaffing on this small element of the 

Department’s operations is ludicrous. It would be just as appropriate to blame it on 

the number of people who work in the Office of Resolution Management (288), or 

the number in the General Counsel’s Office (723), or the Office of the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Finance (869) or even the 537 who work in the Secretary’s Office. 6

If all of the people in these positions were transferred to the bedside of veterans, 

one could say that there were more people providing direct patient care. But the 

Department is an enterprise with many functional needs, and each of these offices 

perform necessary functions. No one is suggesting that the work of these offices 

should cease in order that incumbents be transferred to fill openings elsewhere. The 

function performed by employee representatives is just as vital and important as 

any other Department function focused on support of veterans. To suggest otherwise 

is nothing more than a transparent effort to deny employees the union representation for which they have voted. And more important, it does a disservice to both 

the veterans who work at the Department and the veterans who rely on DVA’s employees for the services they have earned. 

Conclusion 

The GAO report did recommend that the DVA improve its recordkeeping with regard to employee representatives’ use of the reasonable amounts of official time permitted to them. The report identified no union failure or unwillingness to report this 

information to DVA management. And in no way did the report suggest that the 

use of official time presents problems for the Department. Instead, GAO confirms 

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that both union and management representatives report positive outcomes as a result of allowing for time for union representation. Better decisions, better resolution 

of the inevitable problems that arise in a workplace, and improved relationships 

were all identified as benefits of the work of employee representatives. And these 

benefits all accrue to the veterans we hold in such high esteem, the veterans to 

whose care we have devoted our careers. 

I ask the members of the committees to bear in mind that fully one third of the 

Department’s workforce are veterans themselves. They have fought bravely for the 

freedoms we all cherish, and that includes the freedom to form, join and be represented by a union. Any effort to undermine these veterans’ union rights should 

be vehemently opposed. The right to form and join a union is surely undermined 

if that union is prevented from exercising its representational duties because representation is the very purpose of the union. I thank you for the opportunity to testify today, and will be happy to answer any questions you may have. 

f 

Prepared Statement of William Lawrence Kovacs III 

Chairman Meadows, Chairman Arrington, Ranking Member Connolly, Ranking 

Member O’Rourke, and members of the committees. Thank you for holding this 

hearing and providing me the opportunity to discuss the issue of official time in the 

federal workforce. My name is William Kovacs III, and I am a labor policy analyst 

at the Competitive Enterprise Institute (CEI). CEI is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public 

policy organization that focuses on regulatory issues from a free market and limited 

government perspective. 

Summary 

When Congress enacted the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 (CSRA), it determined (in the findings and statement of purpose) that labor unions and collective 

bargaining in the federal government ‘‘safeguard[] the public interest,’’i advance ‘‘the 

effective conduct of public business,’’ii and ‘‘improve employee performance and the 

efficient accomplishment of the operations of the Government.’’iii

It is debatable whether permitting collective bargaining in the federal government 

achieves these objectives.iv Yet, one component of the collective bargaining system 

blatantly undoubtedly contradicts the CSRA’s findings. 

That provision is known as union official time, which grants federal employees 

paid time off from their government duties to perform union work.v Official time 

subsidizes federal labor unions to file grievances, negotiate contracts, and even 

lobby Congress. Unfortunately, a general lack of transparency surrounding the practice makes it impossible to know what specific activities are performed on official 

time or what its costs are. 

Despite official time taking federal employees away from the jobs they were hired 

to do, the federal government imprudently views official time as a crucial cog in its 

carefully crafted collective bargaining regime. The fact is that official time is simply 

a subsidy, costing taxpayers at least $157 million in FY 2012.vi

Hundreds of federal employees spend 100 percent of their time performing union 

activity instead of any public service.vii It is impossible for a federal employee who 

never conducts any public service to promote the public interest, contribute to effective performance of public services, or achieve efficient government operations. Activity performed on official time benefits only labor unions and their members, not 

the public. 

Union activity conducted using official time should be financed with union dues 

instead of tax dollars. Federal employee unions contend that official time is necessary because the CSRA requires a duty of fair representation, which requires 

unions to represent both dues-paying members and non-members, and prohibits 

unions from forcing non-members to pay dues. A better solution than subsidizing 

federal unions is to release them from the duty to represent non-members and free 

those employees from working under a union contract. 

Union official time is an unwise use of limited tax dollars and serves the private 

interests of unions. The public does not directly benefit from the use of official time. 

Congress should eliminate the use of official time. In absence of abolishing official 

time, greater safeguards against its misuse should be implemented, such as a detailed, annual accounting of the cost and activities performed on official time. 

Background 

The Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 statutorily requires the use of official time 

for collective bargaining, impasse proceedings, and cases before the Federal Labor 

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force.viii Outside of this, official time may only be granted ‘‘in any amount the agency employer and the exclusive representative involved agree to be reasonable, necessary, and in the public interest.’’ix A sole statutory restriction on official time is 

that it cannot be granted for internal union business, such as conducting union elections or collecting union dues.x A non-statutory limit on official time found in collective bargaining agreements is a requirement that a supervisor must authorize official time prior to use. As will be discussed below, this is not necessarily an effective 

safeguard. 

The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) sporadically collects official time data 

from federal agencies and publishes its findings in a report.xi Agencies report official 

time in four broad categories: 

1.General Labor Management-Meetings between labor and management officials 

to discuss general conditions of employment, labor-management committee meetings, labor relations training for union representatives, and union participation in 

formal meetings and investigative interviews. 

2.Dispute Resolution-Time used to process grievances up to and including arbitrations and to process appeals of bargaining unit employees to the various administrative agencies. 

3.Term Bargaining-Time used by union representatives to prepare for and negotiate a basic collective bargaining agreement or its successor. 

4.Mid Term Bargaining-Time used by the union representatives to bargain over 

issues raised during the life of a term agreement. 

According to the most recent OPM report on official time, the cost to taxpayers from salaries and benefits paid for official time was $157 million in FY 2012.xii Federal employees spent 3.4 million hours on union activities in FY 2012, the equivalent of more than 1,500 full-time positions.xiii The majority of FY 2012 official time 

hours-2.64 million hours, representing 76 percent-was spent on ‘‘General Labor 

Management,’’ activities that are specific to the union’s concerns.xiv

Cost of Official Time Is Greater than Reported 

The Office of Personnel Management’s official time report is the best resource 

available to understand the cost of official time and how it is used, but it has several weaknesses. OPM only reports the payroll costs of official time. There are additional non-payroll costs associated with official time that OPM does not track or report. Collective bargaining agreements between federal employers and unions frequently require taxpayer funds to cover the cost of office space, telephones, and 

travel for government employees using official time.xv

Another report does account for these costs at one agency. The Social Security Administration (SSA) is required to produce an annual report on its union official time 

activities. It gives a more complete picture of the costs deriving from official time 

at the agency. In FY 2015, the value of official time in salary and benefits was $13.2 

million. However, unlike the OPM study, the SSA report also calculates the cost of 

travel and per diem, office space, telephones, supplies, interest, and arbitration expenses associated with official time. These extra official time costs add up to $2.2 

million, which is 15 percent of the total official time cost at the SSA.xvi If non-payroll official time costs at all other agencies equaled 15 percent, it would increase the 

total costs of official time in the federal government by $23 million. 

Additionally, in 2014, the United States Government Accountability Office (GAO) 

issued a report that criticized OPM’s accounting methods related to official time.xvii

The report found that the methodology used by OPM to estimate the cost of official 

time is inaccurate. According to the GAO report, OPM estimates the cost of official 

time by ‘‘multiplying each agency’s average salary as reported in EHRI [Enterprise 

Human Resources Integration] for BU [bargaining unit] employees covered by official time activities by the agency’s total reported official time hours.’’ Using a more 

sound methodology that uses the actual salary of employees using official time, GAO 

found at four of the six agencies it examined, official time costs are about 15 percent 

higher than the OPM cost estimates.xviii

The same GAO report notes that OPM cannot affirm that agencies report official 

time hours accurately.xix Two other GAO reports that investigate the Department 

of Veterans Affairs and the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) make similar 

claims. Both of these reports state that official time hours and activity performed 

are not accurately kept, and in some cases not reported xxat all.xxi It is more than 

probable that if agencies accurately reported official time hours the total cost would 

rise. 

Official Time at the Department of Veterans Affairs 

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Cost and use of official time at the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) has 

steadily increased in recent years. In 2008, according to OPM, federal employees 

spent 774,679 hours on official time at a cost of $29.97 million. In 2012, the numbers jumped to 1.086 million hours, costing nearly $46.87 million, which amounts 

to percentage increases of 40 percent and 36 percent, respectively, over the four year 

period. In addition to the inflated use and cost over the years, the VA also has one 

of the highest official time rates in the federal government.xxii

In addition to increasing use and costs of official time, Freedom of Information 

Act requests reveal that over 200 VA employees-including over 80 who held nursing 

positions-spent 100 percent of their time conducting union activities. 

In June 2013, upon learning of the practice of official time at the VA, Senator Rob 

Portman (R–OH) and Tom Coburn (R–Okla.) wrote to Secretary of Veterans Affairs 

Eric Shinseki, commenting: 

Federal employees not serving veterans during official time could lead to the failure of VA’s top goals and the well-being of those who have sacrificed in the service 

our nation, could be compromised. 

Moreover, the recent decision to overtime ‘‘surge’’ to help eliminate the backlog 

is troubling considering VA employees who should be completely dedicated to serving veterans are authorized for large amounts of official time. Accepting policies 

that foster poor personnel management practices in a critical period of VA’s history 

will undoubtedly negatively impact veterans who could have otherwise been served 

by taxpayer dollars now reserved for federal employee overtime pay. . 

[T]his time of sequestration and tight budgets, it is important to know how so 

many employees can be spared to serve the interest of outside groups, instead of 

carrying out jobs that are essential to the health, safety and transition of our nation’s veterans. 

Documents show that your department recently employed at least 85 VA nurses, 

some with six-figure salaries, who were in 100 percent official time status. At the 

same time, the department is recruiting more people to fill open nursing positions. 

USA Jobs currently has openings for hundreds of nursing positions to be filled.xxiii

Echoing the statement of the Senators is the recent GAO report on official time 

at the VA, which notes that the use of official time can cause staffing and scheduling challenges.xxiv

Worse, in the department’s master collective bargaining, VA employees are permitted to use official time for lobbying instead of fulfilling the agency’s mission of 

serving veterans.xxv

Official Time Enables Filing of Frivolous Grievances 

Subsidizing union activity via official time gives union representatives the opportunity to file frivolous grievances and other appeals. This is a predictable outcome, 

when union representatives are given a nearly unlimited amount of official time to 

prepare, file, and defend federal employees in any kind of appeals procedure. 

Of 4,300 grievances filed before the Federal Labor Relations Authority in FY 

2012, unions initiated over 90 percent. Only 20 percent proceeded to trial before an 

FLRA administrative law judge, and of those, the FLRA found an actual violation 

of the CSRA in only 13 instances-or .003 percent of the 4,300 charges filed.xxvi

It is also important to note, that when cases come before the FLRA, taxpayers 

pay for all costs associated with grievances, unfair labor practice filings, and other 

representation matters.xxvii Official time pays union representatives to work on behalf of the employee, not taxpayers. Tax dollars also pay any and all expenses incurred by the agency, arbitrators, and employees. This is a costly perk when only 

.003 percent of all grievances result in actual violations.xxviii

Federal Labor Relations Authority member Patrick Pizzella notes several examples of conspicuously frivolous grievances that, if not for official time, would likely 

never be filed. In a case where union officials of an American Federation of Government Employees Border Patrol local were granted official time, ‘‘the taxpayers paid 

for the parties to bicker over whether the agency or the union should pay the cost 

of leftover food from a union-sponsored event that had lower-than-expected attendance purportedly because the agency would not permit the union to use its public 

address system.’’xxix

In another grievance, officials of the Federal Union of Scientists and Engineers 

asked the FLRA ‘‘to resolve whether an agency was required to bargain over the 

union’s request to place an American flag near the entrance of a cafeteria.’’xxx

A recent grievance before the FLRA involved employees at a Social Security Administration teleservice center in Indiana. One day they reported to work and the 

‘‘heating system was not operating to capacity and that the ambient air temperature 

in the office was sixty-five degrees. The Agency swiftly reported the problem to the 

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building owners and the temperature was raised to sixty-seven degrees by 10:15 

a.m. and sixty-eight degrees by 1:00p.m.’’xxxi AFGE, the SSA employees’ union, immediately filed a grievance, arguing that the SSA ‘‘failed to make ‘every reasonable 

effort’ and should have considered additional ‘appropriate arrangements’ such as 

‘bringing in supplemental heat/cooling equipment or closing the office and granting 

employees administrative leave.’’xxxii

Lobbying on Official Time 

Like all other individuals or organizations, federal employee unions have the right 

to lobby government, but they should not do so at the taxpayer’s expense. Unfortunately, the FLRA, on multiple occasions, has ruled that federal employees are allowed to lobby government while using official time. 

There are laws, such as the Anti-Lobbying Act, that prohibit federal employees 

from engaging in political activity with the use of appropriated funds. Despite these 

restrictions, the FLRA has permitted lobbying on official time and such provisions 

appear in a number of collective bargaining agreements. 

In 2000, the FLRA approved a proposal by the Association of Civilian Technicians, 

which represents employees at the Department of Defense, to be granted official 

time for lobbying purposes.xxxiii The decision appears to directly contradict section 

8012 of the DOD appropriations law of 2000, which prohibits federal employees from 

lobbying Congress: 

None of the funds made available by this Act shall be used in any way, directly 

or indirectly, to influence congressional action on any legislation or appropriation 

matters pending before the Congress.xxxiv

Somehow, the FLRA determined that the use of official time to lobby Congress 

does not conflict with the unambiguous text of the DOD appropriations law. 

In the same decision, the FLRA decided that lobbying government on official time 

does not run afoul of another law, the purpose of which is to prohibit lobbying with 

appropriated money. The law states: 

No part of the money appropriated by any enactment of Congress shall, in the 

absence of express authorization by Congress, be used directly or indirectly to pay 

for any personal service, advertisement, telegram, telephone, letter, printed or written matter, or other device, intended or designed to influence in any manner a 

Member of Congress, a jurisdiction, or an official of any government, to favor, adopt, 

or oppose, by vote or otherwise, any legislation, law, ratification, policy, or appropriation, whether before or after the introduction of any bill, measure, or resolution 

proposing such legislation, law, ratification, policy, or appropriation.xxxv

Notwithstanding efforts made by Congress to root out lobbying by federal employees while using tax dollars, as a general rule, lobbying on official time is permitted: 

As a general proposition . unions may negotiate for official time to lobby Congress 

on employment-related matters, as AFGE Local 12 and Dept. of Labor, 61 FLRA 

209, 216 (2005), explained concerning Proposal 6, ‘‘lobbying Congress. Union representatives shall be granted official time to lobby Congress concerning pending or 

desired legislation affecting conditions of employment of bargaining unit employees.’’xxxvi

In a number of cases, the FLRA has ruled to permit unions to negotiate for official 

time for purposes of lobbying activity related to employee work conditions, including 

at the Department of Veterans Affairs.xxxvii

Due to a lack of tracking the activity on, and reporting of, official time, it is unknown how much time federal employees spend lobbying Congress on official time. 

Failing to eliminate official time, greater restrictions should be placed on using official time to lobby Congress. 

Federal Employees use Official Time without Authorization 

There are very few safeguards against unnecessary use of official time. One limitation placed on official time is that collective bargaining agreements can require 

supervisors to sign off on official time requests.xxxviii

However, according to an Inspector General audit of official time at the National 

Labor Relations Board, employees regularly took official time without receiving authorization from a supervisor.xxxix

The audit revealed a lack of control over official time usage. Upon inspection, the 

audit found that the NLRB did not track the amount of time given and allowed employees to take official time without prior approval. The Inspector General found 

that documentation for requesting and approving the use of official time was ‘‘generally not maintained.’’ 

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The Inspector General reported: 

We also found that the Agency could, but does not, record the use of official time 

by bargaining unit employees in its payroll system. Instead, four different forms are 

used to record official time information on a monthly basis. The forms do not match 

the categories reported to OPM and compiling the figures for the report appears to 

require a certain degree of estimation.xl

The Inspector General concludes: 

Given the cost of the official time, the lack of oversight, and the disparity with 

the Government-wide average, we question whether the amount of time used by 

these officials meets the statutory test of reasonableness, necessity, and public interest.xli

Conclusion 

Official time is an unnecessary subsidy to federal employee unions that serves the 

interests of unions and their members, not the public. The taxpayer does not receive 

a direct benefit or any discernable consideration in return for the cost of official 

time. 

Congress should eliminate the federal union subsidy known as official time. Short 

of that, detailed annual reporting of official time should be required and agencies 

should improve their tracking of union activity. Taxpayers have a right to know how 

much of their tax dollars are used to finance official time and what union activities 

federal employees undertake instead of the job they were hired to do. 

Notes 

i 5 U.S.C. § 7101(a)(1)(A)), https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE–2010-title5/ 

html/USCODE–2010-title5-partIII-subpartF-chap71.htm. ii 5 U.S.C. § 7101 (a)(1)(B)), https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE–2010-title5/ 

html/USCODE–2010-title5-partIII-subpartF-chap71.htm. iii 5 U.S.C. § 7101 (a)(2)), https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE–2010-title5/ 

html/USCODE–2010-title5-partIII-subpartF-chap71.htm. iv For a general critique of collective bargaining in government, see David 

Denholm, ‘‘Beyond Public Sector Unionism: A Better Way,’’ Public Service Research 

Foundation, October 1994, http://www.psrf.org/issues/beyond.jsp#art1. v 5 U.S.C. § 7131, https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE–2010-title5/html/ 

USCODE–2010-title5-partIII-subpartF-chap71.htm. vi Office of Personnel Management, ‘‘Labor-Management Relations in the Executive Branch,’’ October 2014, https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/labor-management-relations/reports/labor-management-relations-in-the-executive-branch2014.pdf. vii Americans for Limited Government, ‘‘Full-Time Official Time: A Special Report Exposing Taxpayer-Funded Union Employees,’’ summer 2016, https:// 

getliberty.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/ALGF–Full-Time-Official-Time-Report— 

Final—Binder—06.28.16.pdf. viii 5 U.S.C. § 7131 (a) (c), https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE–2010-title5/ 

html/USCODE–2010-title5-partIII-subpartF-chap71.htm. ix 5 U.S.C. § 7131 (d) (2)), https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE–2010-title5/ 

html/USCODE–2010-title5-partIII-subpartF-chap71.htm. x 5 U.S.C. § 7131 (b), https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE–2010-title5/html/ 

USCODE–2010-title5-partIII-subpartF-chap71.htm. xi See note 6. xii Ibid. xiii Ibid. xiv Ibid. xv Mark Flatten, ‘‘Too Big To Manage: Public pays for government unions to 

lobby for more federal spending,’’ Washington Examiner, February 4, 2014, http:// 

washingtonexaminer.com/public-pays-for-government-unions-to-lobby-for-more-federal-spending/article/2543213. xvi Social Security Administration, ‘‘Social Security Administration Report Concerning Expenditures for Union Activities,’’ January 21, 2016, https://www.ssa.gov/ 

legislation/Official%20Time%20for%20Union%20Activities—FY2015.pdf. xvii Government Accountability Office, ‘‘Actions Needed to Improve Tracking and 

Reporting of the Use and Cost of Official Time,’’ GAO–15–9, October 2014, http:// 

oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/GAO-report.pdf. xviii Ibid. xix Ibid. 

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xx National Labor Relations Board Office of Inspector General, ‘‘Official Time for 

Union Activities,’’ Report No. OIG–AMR–62–10–01, December 2009, http:// 

www.nlrb.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/basic-page/node-1700/oig-amr-62–10– 

01—0.pdf. xxi GAO, ‘‘VA Could Better Track the Amount of Official Time Used by Employees,’’ Report to the Chairman, Committee on Veterans’ Affairs, House of Representatives, January 2017, http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/682250.pdf. xxii ‘‘Labor-Management Relations: REPORTS ON OFFICIAL TIME,’’ OPM 

website, accessed February 13, 2017, https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/ 

labor-management-relations/reports-on-official-time/. xxiii ‘‘Portman/Coburn Letter: Should 188 VA Employees Be Paid To Do Union 

Work Full-time While Veterans Face Backlog?,’’ June 5, 2013, Office of Senator Rob 

Portman, http://www.portman.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=6bbed8f6–35c2–49e3-a0fb-fd10a0089f04. xxiv See note 21. xxv Contract between Department of Veterans Affairs and the American Federation of Government Employees and National Veterans Affairs Council of Locals, 

https://www.va.gov/LMR/AFGE—Master—Agreement—Final.pdf. xxvi AFGE, Local 2913, 67 FLRA 107 (2013), https://www.flra.gov/decisions/v67/ 

67–26.html. xxvii Ibid. xxviii Ibid. xxix Ibid. xxx Ibid. The Federal Union of Scientists and Engineers (FUSE) is a local of the 

National Association of Government Employees, which itself is a local of the Service 

Employees International Union. Federal Union of Scientists and Engineers, ‘‘About 

FUSE,’’ FUSE website, accessed February 10, 2017, http://fuseunion.org/about-fuse. xxxi AFGE, Local 3571, 67 FLRA 178 (2014), https://www.flra.gov/decisions/v67/ 

67–46.html. xxxii Ibid. xxxiii ACT, Razorback Chapter 117, 56 FLRA 62 (2000), https://www.flra.gov/decisions/v56/56–062.html. xxxiv Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2000, https://www.govtrack.us/ 

congress/bills/106/hr2561/text. xxxv 18 U.S.C. § 1913, https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1913. xxxvi Peter Broida, ‘‘A Guide to Federal Labor Relations Authority Law and Practice,’’ 2014, American Civil Service Law Series, http://deweypub.com/store/ 

15FLRA.html. xxxvii Here is a selection of cases permitted lobbying on official time decided by 

the FLRA: NFFE, Local 122, 47 FLRA 105, (1993), https://www.flra.gov/decisions/ 

v47/47–105.html. NFFE, Local 259, 52 FLRA 93, (1997), https://www.flra.gov/decisions/v52/52–093.html. ACT, Granite State Chapter, 54 FLRA 38, (1998), https:// 

www.flra.gov/decisions/v54/54–038.html. xxxviii See note 20. xxxix Ibid. xl Ibid. xli Ibid. 

f 

Statements For The Record 

CINDY BROWN BARNES 

The following is Cindy Brown Barnes’ response to a question posed by 

Representative O’Rourke during the February 16, 2017 hearing on the use 

of official time for union activities at the Department of Veterans Affairspp.53–54 of the uncorrected hearing transcript. Please strike Ms. Barnes’ 

response, and replace with the following: 

Response from 3–9-17: For our January 2017 report, we did not analyze the 

amount of official time used by employees at agencies other than VA, and we did 

not examine other agencies’ practices for tracking and recording unions’ use of official time. According to OPM’s 2014 Labor-Management Relations in the Executive 

Branch report, VA used the most official time in fiscal year 2012 compared to the 

other agencies included in the report in terms of total hours. However, according 

to the OPM report, VA had a lower rate of official time use expended per bargaining 

unit employee compared to several other large agencies. The rate of official time use 

is derived by dividing the total number of official time hours by the number of barLeonard.horne on VACREP0180 with DISTILLER

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gaining unit employees. For example, VA had a rate of 4.8 hours per bargaining 

unit employee, compared to other large departments such as the Departments of the 

Treasury and Transportation, which had a rate of approximately 7.3 and 6.4 hours 

per bargaining unit employee, respectively. 

Æ 

Leonard.horne on VACREP0180 with DISTILLER