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### U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

**+ + + + + BATTERY CHARGERS TEST PROCEDURE** 

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + TUESDAY**  **JUNE 3, 2014**

**+ + + + +**

**The Public Meeting met in Room 8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington,**  **D.C., at 9:00 a.m, Doug Brookman, Meeting Facilitator, presiding.** 

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### PRESENT **DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Power Solutions, Inc.**  **LARRY ALBERT, Stanley Black & Decker JOSEPH ANDERSEN, Telecommunications Industry**  **Association ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy**  **ALEX BOESENBERG, National Electrical Manufacturers Association**  **JENNIFER CLEARY, Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers**  **JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy DAVE DENKENBERGER, ECOVA**  **JEREMY DOMMU, Department of Energy SANAEE IYAMA, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory DOUGLAS K. JOHNSON, Consumer Electronics**  **Association WAYNE KELSO, Blue Sea Systems** * **MICHAEL KIDO, Department of Energy ROBERT KUBIK, Samsung Electronics**  **JOHN KUZIN, Qualcomm Incorporated MICHAEL LEWAN, Blue Sea Systems**  **ERICA LOGAN, Information Technology Industry Council**  **PETER PROTOPAPPAS, Navigant Consulting, Inc. DOUG RAWALD, Department of Energy**  **KEN RIDER, California Energy Commission*** **MIKE RIVEST, Navigant Consulting, Inc. DENNY R. SALAS, National Marine**  **Manufacturers Association** *** present by telephone**

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### C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S **Call to Order and Opening Remarks 6 Doug Brookman**  **Facilitator Opening Statement 6**  **Ashley Armstrong Department of Energy**  **Introductions 7 Agenda Overview 11**  **Opening Statement 13 Jeremy Dommu**  **Department of Energy Opening Statements from Participants 14**  **Doug Johnson 14 Consumer Electronics Association,**  **Information Technology Industry Council, and the Telecommunications**  **Industry Association John Kuzin 18**  **Alliance for Wireless Power Larry Albert 23**  **Senior Technical Manager Stanley Black & Decker**  **On Behalf of the Power Tool Institute**  **Alex Boesenberg 31 Manager of Regulatory Affairs**  **National Electrical Manufacturers Association** 

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### C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) **History of Test Procedure and Energy 34 Conservation Standards**  **Jeremy Dommu Department of Energy**  **Results and Analyses Summary 42 Jeremy Dommu**  **Department of Energy Questions and Comments 54**  **Jeremy Dommu 92 Department of Energy**  **Questions and Comments 93 Lead Acid Battery Testing 104**  **Wayne Kelso Blue Sea Systems**  **On behalf of the National Marine Manufacturers Association**  **Questions and Comments 123 Request for Information Topics 124**  **Jeremy Dommu Department of Energy**  **Questions and Comments 127 Testing of Wireless or Inductive 133**  **Battery Charges Used in Dry Environments**  **Jeremy Dommu Department of Energy**  **Questions and Comments 136**

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### C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)
**Adaptive Charging Systems 153 Jeremy Dommu**  **Department of Energy Questions and Comments 156**  **Questions/Comments and Wrap up 170**

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### 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S **2 9:05 a.m. 3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good**  **4 morning, everyone. Please take your seats. 5 Good morning, and welcome. This**  **6 is the battery chargers test procedure notice 7 of data availability public meeting. Today**  **8 is June 3rd, 2014, here in the Forrestal 9 Building in Washington, D.C. My name is Doug**  **10 Brookman from Public Solutions in Baltimore. 11 We are going to start this morning**  **12 with welcoming remarks from Ashley Armstrong. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good morning.**  **14 My name is Ashley Armstrong. I 15 oversee the test procedure development coming**  **16 out of the Department's regulatory program. 17 I would just like to take the time**  **18 and welcome you all to our public meeting on 19 the test procedure for battery chargers.**  **20 I do want to say a couple of things 21 here at the outset. We have gotten a couple**  **22 of questions relating to how this proceeding**

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### 1 corresponds to our standards rulemaking that **2 we currently have open. 3 I just want to say that the purpose**  **4 of today's meeting is not to talk about the 5 standards rule, not to talk about compliance**  **6 with standards, not to talk about levels. We 7 are really here to focus on the method of tests**  **8 and ambiguities that may be in the method of 9 tests. So, we are hoping that you guys will**  **10 engage in that discussion and help us have that 11 discussion.**  **12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.**  **14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: As we 15 typically do, we will start with introductions**  **16 around the room. I will start to my immediate 17 left. You can get used to turning these**  **18 microphones on and off. Your name and 19 organizational affiliation, please.**  **20 MR. JOHNSON: Good morning. Doug 21 Johnson with the Consumer Electronics**  **22 Association, or CEA.**

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### MR. KUBIK: Good morning. Rod **2** 

### Kubik with Samsung. I am here representing **3** 

### the Alliance for Wireless Power. I am the **4** 

### Chair of that regulatory group. **5** 

### MS. LOGAN: Good morning. Erica **6** 

### Logan with ITI, the Information Technology **7** 

### Industry Council. **8** 

### MR. ALBERT: Good morning. Larry **9** 

### Albert. I work for Stanley Black & Decker, **10** 

### and I am representing the Power Tool **11** 

### Institute, PTI. **12** 

### MR. SALAS: Denny Salas with the **13** 

### National Marine Manufacturers Association. **14** 

### MR. LEWAN: Michael Lewan, also **15** 

### with the National Marine Manufacturers **16** 

### Association. **17** 

### MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, **18** 

### Manager of Regulatory Affairs for the National **19** 

### Electrical Manufacturers Association. **20** 

### MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary with the **21** 

### Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers. **22** 

### MR. KUZIN: John Kuzin with

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### Qualcomm. I am here representing the **2** 

### Alliance for Wireless Power along with Mr. **3** 

### Kubik who just introduced himself a few **4** 

### seconds ago. **5** 

### MR. DENKENBERGER: Dave **6** 

### Denkenberger, ECOVA. **7** 

### MR. RAWALD: I'm Doug Rawald from **8** 

### the Department of Energy's Office of General **9** 

### Counsel. **10** 

### MR. KIDO: Michael Kido, Office of **11** 

### the General Counsel in the Department of **12** 

### Energy. **13** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, **14** 

### DOE. **15** 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, **16** 

### DOE. **17** 

### MR. DOMMU: Jeremy Dommu, **18** 

### Department of Energy. **19** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It is not **20** 

### on (referring to the microphone). **21** 

### MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, **22** 

### Navigant Consulting.

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### MS. IYAMA: Sanaee Lyama, **2** 

### Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. **3** 

### MR. PROTOPAPPAS: Peter **4** 

### Protopappas, Navigant Consulting. **5** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And **6** 

### please, at the back of the room, please stand **7** 

### and introduce yourself. **8** 

### MR. RINGEISEN: Blake Ringeisen, **9** 

### Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. **10** 

### MS. WISE: Lauren Wise, National **11** 

### Marine Manufacturers Association. **12** 

### MR. KAHAN: Chris Skahan, **13** 

### Navigant Consulting. **14** 

### MR. TSAO: Allen Tsao, Navigant **15** 

### Consulting. **16** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Again, **17** 

### welcome to all of you, and nice to have you **18** 

### here. **19** 

### And also, welcome to those joining **20** 

### us via the web. **21** 

### Emily, do we have folks joining us **22** 

### online? Yes? About 21? A good attendance

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### via the web. The Department of Energy is **2** 

### trying to make these meetings accessible to **3** 

### all via the web. **4** 

### All of you received a packet of **5** 

### information as you came in this morning. I am **6** 

### going to do a very brief agenda review, which **7** 

### is on page 2 of your packet. Immediately **8** 

### following this agenda review, and perhaps a **9** 

### few slides at the outset, there's an **10** 

### opportunity for brief opening remarks, brief **11** 

### statements about issues that you would like to **12** 

### bring to the fore, the issues that you think **13** 

### deserve to be called out here at the front-end **14** 

### of this meeting. **15** 

### And following that, we will go **16** 

### directly into the content that is in this **17** 

### packet, which is the history of test procedure **18** 

### and energy conservation standards. Moving on **19** 

### from there, results and analysis summary. **20** 

### We will probably take a break **21** 

### mid-morning-ish, round about 10:30 or so. **22** 

### That is not listed here.

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### Following that, returning from **2** 

### break, Request for Information topics. And **3** 

### then, at the end of the day, questions and **4** 

### comments and wrap up. **5** 

### There is an opportunity, whenever **6** 

### we get to it, again, for anybody that wishes **7** 

### to insert additional information, content, **8** 

### ask questions, get it all on the record. **9** 

### Okay. So, that is the purpose of that **10** 

### segment. **11** 

### Questions and comments about the **12** 

### agenda? **13** 

### (No response.) **14** 

### Seeing none, I would ask if you **15** 

### would look on page 1, the simple ground rules. **16** 

### Please speak one at a time, and if you would **17** 

### say your name for the record each time you **18** 

### speak. You don't need to say your **19** 

### organization affiliation. Some people are in **20** 

### the habit of doing that. Just your name will **21** 

### be sufficient. It's up to you. **22** 

### If you could be concise, share the

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### 1 airtime? We are hoping to get a lively **2 discussion going here today. Please keep the 3 focus here. Cell phones on silent mode.**  **4 Limit sidebar conversations. 5 And webinar participants, once**  **6 again, we welcome you. Please turn your 7 telephones on mute, and raise your hand via the**  **8 software to be recognized to speak. It has 9 been pretty consistent lately. Typically, we**  **10 can hear you in the room when you do speak. 11 So, you can join the conversation.**  **12 And I think that that is all that 13 we have here at the outset. Do you want to**  **14 make a few comments before we go to opening 15 remarks? Jeremy Dommu.**  **16 MR. DOMMU: Sure. Hi, everyone. 17 I'm Jeremy Dommu. I am the Project Manager**  **18 who is overseeing the test procedure 19 rulemaking for battery chargers.**  **20 Thank you all again for joining us 21 today. I do hope we have a very lively**  **22 discussion, and I welcome you all.**

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### I will be facilitating the meeting **2** 

### through giving a lot of the presentation and **3** 

### introducing the topics for conversation, **4** 

### presenting some of the issues that were **5** 

### originally brought up in the Notice of Data **6** 

### Availability, which is the subject of today's **7** 

### meeting. **8** 

### So, again, please do participate **9** 

### and provide us with all useful information and **10** 

### questions. And thank you again for being **11** 

### here. **12** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **13** 

### Thanks. **14** 

### Now let's proceed with opening **15** 

### statements, brief remarks here at the outset, **16** 

### things you wish to bring to the fore as we begin **17** 

### this meeting. **18** 

### And if you are representing an **19** 

### organization, if you would restate that, **20** 

### please, that would be helpful. **21** 

### Do you want to start, Doug? **22** 

### MR. JOHNSON: Good morning again.

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### I'm Doug Johnson of the Consumer **2** 

### Electronics Association, or CEA. On behalf **3** 

### of CEA and the Information Technology Industry **4** 

### Council, ITI, and the Telecommunications **5** 

### Industry Association, TIA, I wish to focus at **6** 

### this meeting on our basic support for DOE's **7** 

### decision to exempt wireless chargers from its **8** 

### proposed regulation for battery chargers. **9** 

### We agree that a wireless power **10** 

### product that meets the battery charger **11** 

### definition, whether inductive or galvanic, is **12** 

### a covered product. We further support DOE's **13** 

### proposal to create a separate product class **14** 

### for products that use wireless power in a dry **15** 

### environment to charge consumer products. **16** 

### DOE properly recognizes this **17** 

### technology as immature and that the ability to **18** 

### charge multiple devices simultaneously and **19** 

### wirelessly offers a unique ability to **20** 

### consumers which could be adversely affected by **21** 

### premature setting of standards. **22** 

### We support DOE's decision not to

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### 1 set standards for these types of products and **2 to defer such analysis to a later standards 3 rulemaking as the technology matures.**  **4 It is an important part of DOE's 5 statutory mission to provide for uniform**  **6 national standards and regulatory 7 requirements for such products subject to**  **8 DOE's jurisdiction. It is also critically 9 important that DOE take action as soon as**  **10 possible to issue a determination for wireless 11 chargers under Section 629503(b) of EPCA, that**  **12 establishment of a standard will not result in 13 significant conservation of energy or that the**  **14 establishment of such a standard is not 15 technologically feasible or economically**  **16 justified. 17 This is not only an appropriate and**  **18 just result; it is critical and necessary to 19 fulfill DOE's statutory mission to provide for**  **20 uniform and preemptive standards. To 21 establish standards for certain product**  **22 sub-classes while deciding not to pursue**

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### standards for other select product classes is **2** 

### permissible under the law, and it is sound **3** 

### policy. Other products, such as kitchen **4** 

### ranges, have been handled in this way. **5** 

### A contrary approach would be this **6** 

### dynamic and immature wireless technology is **7** 

### subject to inappropriate and patchwork state **8** 

### regulation, with the intended result of **9** 

### causing far greater harm than even a premature **10** 

### federal standard for such a product class. **11** 

### Notably, existing state standards **12** 

### did not take into account the latest wireless **13** 

### charging technology when those standards were **14** 

### promulgated and adopted. If this incipient **15** 

### product class evolves and grows and becomes a **16** 

### significant source of energy use, then it **17** 

### should be considered in the future for a **18** 

### federal standard. **19** 

### In summary, given that wireless **20** 

### charging technology is still in the very early **21** 

### stages of development and deployment, DOE **22** 

### should act as soon as possible to finalize its

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### 1 decision not to set standards for wireless **2 chargers, as is appropriate and compelled by 3 EPCA or Section 629503(b).**  **4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 5 Additional comments here at the**  **6 outset? Yes, please. 7 MR. KUZIN: Following on to what**  **8 Mr. Johnson just testified about, I'm John 9 Kuzin, on behalf of the Alliance for Wireless**  **10 Power. 11 The Alliance for Wireless Power**  **12 was very pleased in March of 2012 when the DOE 13 proposed to defer regulation of wireless**  **14 battery charges when it put forward energy 15 efficiency regulations for wired battery**  **16 chargers. DOE chose to do so for all the right 17 reasons that are just as relevant today. The**  **18 technology is in a very early stage of design 19 and development, and premature regulation**  **20 would stymy innovation and have other 21 unintended consequences.**  **22 Wireless charging technology is**

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### 1 still in its infancy. Dozens of wireless **2 charging technology developers and equipment 3 makers, many of whom are members of the**  **4 Alliance for Wireless Power. The Power 5 Matters Alliance, the Wireless Power**  **6 Consortium, and other groups are developing 7 innovative means of wirelessly charging all**  **8 types of battery-powered devices from 9 Smartphones and Smart Watches to cell phones**  **10 and tablet computers, to Bluetooth headsets 11 and hearing aids. The list goes on and on.**  **12 The technology is being designed 13 to charge devices as efficiently and quickly**  **14 as possible because charging time and battery 15 life are key market differentiators.**  **16 Wireless charging also provides consumers 17 with ready access to easy means of recharging**  **18 batteries. There is something to be said 19 about ready access to multiple convenient**  **20 charging options, for it helps to ensure that 21 the devices are available to be used, when**  **22 necessary, such as for placing an emergency**

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### call when you are experiencing or witnessing **2** 

### an emergency situation. **3** 

### Wireless charging technology is so **4** 

### useful because it makes charging easy. **5** 

### Simply place a device on a charging pad or a **6** 

### properly-equipped bedroom bureau, automobile **7** 

### console, or office desktop, and the device **8** 

### charges. **9** 

### While plugging your electronic **10** 

### device into the wall is not a difficult task, **11** 

### many consumers forget to do so when they get **12** 

### to the office or home or hop in their cars. **13** 

### And this is not surprising because these are **14** 

### environments where individuals are focused on **15** 

### doing other things. **16** 

### Wireless charging also will **17** 

### provide environmental benefits. To the **18** 

### extent they replace wired chargers over time, **19** 

### wireless chargers will lessen the landfill **20** 

### impact of the many millions of wall warts that **21** 

### are disposed of when Americans buy new **22** 

### electronic devices.

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### For these reasons, it is **2** 

### critically important that the DOE issue a **3** 

### determination for wireless chargers under **4** 

### Section 629503(b) of EPCA that establishment **5** 

### of a standard will not result in significant **6** 

### conversation of energy or that the **7** 

### establishment of the standard is not **8** 

### technological feasible or economically **9** 

### justified. Such a determination would have **10** 

### preemptive effect and allow the technology to **11** 

### be developed and deployed without damaging **12** 

### state restrictions such as those presently in **13** 

### place in California and Oregon and in other **14** 

### states in the future. **15** 

### These state regulations were **16** 

### imposed on technologies such as the **17** 

### loosely-coupled wireless chargers that the **18** 

### Alliance for Wireless Power member companies **19** 

### are developing before these products were even **20** 

### on the market. **21** 

### The states that have imposed **22** 

### efficient regulations on wireless chargers

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### 1 have provided informal guidance that includes **2 two exceptions to its rules for wireless 3 chargers. The wireless charging industry**  **4 cannot rely on these exceptions because the 5 California Energy Commission or the Oregon**  **6 Department of Energy may at any time change its 7 mind and modify its guidance without a**  **8 rulemaking. Also, the guidance that these 9 states currently follow need not be followed**  **10 by future states that decide to adopt these 11 rules in whole or in part.**  **12 Either path would have a 13 detrimental impact on the successful rollout**  **14 of wireless charging technology. And 15 regardless of the exceptions, the fact of the**  **16 matter is no standard is warranted because the 17 technology is so new.**  **18 Therefore, and in conclusion, we 19 respectfully request that DOE make a**  **20 determination for wireless battery chargers 21 pursuant to Section 629503(b) of EPCA. There**  **22 is also strong precedent for making such a**

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### determination, as we will explain in our **2** 

### written comments to be filed later this month. **3** 

### Thank you. **4** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. **5** 

### Larry? **6** 

### MR. ALBERT: Thank you, Doug. **7** 

### My name is Larry Albert. I'm a **8** 

### Senior Technical Manager at Stanley Black & **9** 

### Decker. I am pleased to offer comments on the **10** 

### NODA on behalf of the Power Tool Institute. **11** 

### PTI is a trade association of **12** 

### leading power tool manufacturers in the United **13** 

### States. We have been very active in providing **14** 

### ongoing responsible advocacy, promoting **15** 

### meaningful rulemaking for battery-charging **16** 

### systems in the United States and Canada. **17** 

### We have been an active contributor **18** 

### to battery charging system standards and test **19** 

### procedure development from the very **20** 

### beginning. With respect to test procedures **21** 

### that this is the topic of the conversation **22** 

### today, we contributed to a great extent to the

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### 1 CEC test procedure, which was the basis for the **2 DOE test procedure. 3 And it has also been my pleasure to**  **4 be a member of the working group that has 5 developed the recently-published C31.2, which**  **6 is the Canadian adoption of the U.S. DOE test 7 procedure. That standards committee that**  **8 worked on it was committed to creating a 9 faithful reproduction and standards format of**  **10 the DOE regulations that could be used 11 generally throughout any of the provinces.**  **12 The DOE test procedure has been in 13 force for three years. It has been used for**  **14 compliance with the CEC Energy Standards for 15 over a year. In addition, the use of C31.2,**  **16 many of the provinces are in the process of 17 implementing energy efficiency standards that**  **18 are effectively based upon the DOE test 19 procedure. Any revision to the test**  **20 procedure at this point would have a 21 wide-ranging disruptive impact upon both**  **22 manufacturers and these jurisdictions.**

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### 1 With regard to the general **2 questions about the ambiguity of the test 3 procedure and any consequential problems with**  **4 reproducibility or with the repeatability of 5 the test procedure, our members have not**  **6 experienced any issues in this regard. 7 With respect to DOE's basis for the**  **8 concern, which was the apparent discrepancy 9 between the CEC data and the DOE data, we note**  **10 that Navigant's report failed to indicate if 11 the BCS were purchased within the State of**  **12 California or, if it was, was it manufactured 13 after the effective date of the CEC**  **14 regulation? Without this information 15 specified, there would be no expectation that**  **16 the data would be from the same population of 17 BCs and there would be no reason to question**  **18 the inconsistency of the data. 19 In any case, if there was concern**  **20 about the CEC data, it is not clear why the 21 first course of action would have been not to**  **22 contact CEC and determine what the discrepancy**

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### was and whether it could be resolved, rather **2** 

### than perhaps considering systemic issues with **3** 

### the interpretation of the test procedure. **4** 

### Another shortcoming of the report, **5** 

### from our perspective, is that it fails to **6** 

### mention the total number of cases investigated **7** 

### and what proportion of those cases actually **8** 

### resulted in a discrepancy between the CEC and **9** 

### DOE testing. That would give us an **10** 

### understanding as to how prevalent the issue **11** 

### was. **12** 

### Particularly with respect to the **13** 

### observation that Navigant made that the BE **14** 

### value was greater than the E24 value, Navigant **15** 

### noticed that this occurred in about 1 percent **16** 

### of the cases in the CEC data. This rate of **17** 

### occurrence could easily be accounted for in **18** 

### tests and reporting errors. It seems that any **19** 

### systemic issue with respect to the **20** 

### interpretation of the standard would result in **21** 

### a much larger proportion of discrepant data. **22** 

### Lastly, with respect to this

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### 1 issue, the Department expressed concern about **2 how the test procedure for multi-voltage, 3 multi-capacity, and multi-chemistry, and**  **4 multi-voltage and multi-capacity, BCs was 5 implemented. The concern may have been**  **6 provoked by an awareness that the test 7 procedure requires three separate sets of**  **8 data, and that the CEC website reports only 9 one.**  **10 Members report that, while all 11 three datasets are measured, CEC only provides**  **12 a single entry for data. While all three 13 cases are required to comply under the CEC**  **14 regulation, members would typically report 15 the worst case.**  **16 While we see how data reported this 17 way might raise eyebrows, it is not itself a**  **18 reflection upon any ambiguity of the test 19 procedure, but, rather, CEC's choice on how it**  **20 was reported. 21 So, overall, with respect to DOE's**  **22 concern about ambiguity, reproducibility, and**

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### 1 repeatability of the testing, PTI finds no **2 basis for concern. 3 Other questions, DOE asked other**  **4 questions. PTI would like to offer comment at 5 this time about DOE's question regarding the**  **6 subject of dry wireless charging. While our 7 members' products to the great extent do not**  **8 employ these charging methodologies, we are 9 concerned that this question may obscure more**  **10 meaningful distinction; that is, the 11 distinction between proprietary charging**  **12 methods and a more universal charging 13 standard.**  **14 We see no major obstacles in 15 applying the test procedure to products that**  **16 employ this methodology as long as there can 17 be a proper selection of the appliance with the**  **18 charging base. With proprietary systems, 19 this is a straightforward determination.**  **20 However, there are wireless 21 charging systems utilizing open standards,**  **22 such as you heard today, and, in addition, the**

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### Qi standard from the Wireless Power **2** 

### Consortium. These wireless charging systems **3** 

### provide a universal, well-defined, open **4** 

### wireless charging standard for both the **5** 

### charger base and the device to be charged that **6** 

### can be implemented by many products across **7** 

### many manufacturers. **8** 

### This necessarily creates issue in **9** 

### the selection of battery and charger in the **10** 

### test procedure, as this procedure currently **11** 

### requires selection from among those batteries **12** 

### or devices specifically recommended for use **13** 

### with the charger. In many cases, a battery **14** 

### charger manufacturer may not produce a product **15** 

### to be charged with these open standards, **16** 

### right, with the reverse also being true. **17** 

### By this same distinction, other **18** 

### universal methods, such as USB-based chargers **19** 

### and potentially other future charging **20** 

### methods, whether wired or wireless, should be **21** 

### reflected by common treatment. This **22** 

### certainly appears based upon early public

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### 1 

### adoption of these methods, that this could **2** 

### reflect a general trend moving ahead that **3** 

### could have considerable positive impact on **4** 

### national energy usage relative to proprietary **5** 

### methods. It is possible that power tools may **6** 

### someday have such a charging method. By this **7** 

### perspective, the distinction is not wireless **8** 

### or wired, but, rather, universal versus **9** 

### proprietary. **10** 

### This also raises an important **11** 

### regulatory question. Would it be preferable **12** 

### from a national energy usage perspective to **13** 

### have fewer, more universal chargers in lieu of **14** 

### a multitude of proprietary chargers? **15** 

### We recommend that DOE not try to **16** 

### force universal charging platforms, wired or **17** 

### wireless, based upon a standard to be tested **18** 

### to the existing test procedure until it has **19** 

### been analyzed for the impact of any such **20** 

### regulation. **21** 

### Overall, PTI believes there is no **22** 

### necessity to revise the current BCS test

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### 1 procedure at this time and would be very **2 concerned with the disruptive effect that any 3 revision might create.**  **4 Thank you for affording us the 5 opportunity to address these important**  **6 issues. We will supply written comments 7 before the end of the month.**  **8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 9 Larry.**  **10 Alex Boesenberg? 11 MR. BOESENBERG: Thank you, Doug.**  **12 As I mentioned, I am Alex 13 Boesenberg. I am the Manager of Regulatory**  **14 Affairs for the National Electrical 15 Manufacturers Association.**  **16 On behalf of my member companies, 17 we want to thank the Department for having**  **18 today's meeting and for reopening an 19 opportunity to further comment on and improve**  **20 the accuracy and repeatability of the test 21 procedure.**  **22 My members' concerns are centered**

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### 1 on making sure that the flexibility of the test **2 procedure allows it to be applied accurately 3 and effectively to a wide range of products,**  **4 particularly the products that we provide 5 which are flexible, both in terms of the type**  **6 of charging power or battery chemistries 7 involved and, also, with respect to the fact**  **8 that, while the devices in question might 9 charge a battery, they also perform numerous**  **10 other consumer-demanded features as part of 11 their operation. And we hope to help improve**  **12 the test procedure in those respects to make 13 sure that we are measuring accurately and**  **14 fairly the amount of power used for battery 15 charging while taking into account there is**  **16 power consumption for other services. 17 Thank you.**  **18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 19 Additional comments here at the**  **20 outset? 21 (No response.)**  **22 One or two individuals did not get**

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### 1 

### a chance to introduce themselves here at the **2** 

### outset. Let's do that now. Please say your **3** 

### name and organizational affiliation. **4** 

### MR. ANDERSON: Hi. Joseph **5** 

### Anderson with the Telecommunications Industry **6** 

### Association, and we will be submitting written **7** 

### comments. **8** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. **9** 

### You have no opening statement? **10** 

### Okay, then, I guesses no **11** 

### additional opening statements. We are going **12** 

### to move on to the content in the packet. **13** 

### Oh, sorry, I missed you. Please. **14** 

### MR. LEWAN: That's all right. **15** 

### My name is Michael Lewan with the **16** 

### National Marine Manufacturers Association. **17** 

### We are lucky to have a technical **18** 

### expert join us remotely from the West Coast **19** 

### this morning on webinar, Wayne Kelso with Blue **20** 

### Sea Systems. **21** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Uh-hum. **22** 

### MR. LEWAN: I'm not sure if Wayne

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### 1 

### would like to chime-in right now with a brief **2** 

### opening statement and, then, provide more **3** 

### technical comments later on this morning. **4** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **5** 

### And there will be plenty of opportunity for **6** 

### technical comment as we proceed through this **7** 

### packet. **8** 

### So, Wayne, it is your choice. If **9** 

### you like to make brief statements now, please **10** 

### unmute your phone and speak. **11** 

### He hasn't signed on yet? Okay. **12** 

### So, he will be joining, I presume. **13** 

### Okay. So, then, let's proceed **14** 

### with the content you see in the packet. **15** 

### MR. DOMMU: Hi, everyone. **16** 

### This is Jeremy Dommu again. **17** 

### So, thank you all for your opening **18** 

### remarks and we could proceed into some of the **19** 

### agenda items for today's public meeting. **20** 

### Doug has already gone through many **21** 

### of the agenda items that we plan to tackle **22** 

### during the meeting this morning, but you could

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### 1 see them up here again on the screen, and they **2 are also included in the packets that you all 3 have in front of you.**  **4 Listening via the webinar, I think 5 Doug covered most of these issues of**  **6 stakeholders who are participating via the 7 webinar. So, I welcome all of you as well, and**  **8 I am glad that you have had the opportunity to 9 participate remotely.**  **10 So, that brings us here to really 11 the purpose of today's public meeting. So, as**  **12 Ashley started off in the beginning, the focus 13 of today's public meeting is on the test**  **14 procedure, and we want to ensure that the test 15 procedure is being applied in a uniform**  **16 method, and that it is unambiguous and it is 17 clear, and it is repeatable, representative,**  **18 and reproducible. 19 So, kind of throughout the meeting**  **20 today, we are going to present some of the data 21 that we have come across through our own**  **22 testing and explore a number of other issues,**

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### 1 in the hopes of getting feedback and comment **2 to ensure that the test procedure is meeting 3 our objectives.**  **4 So, we will present some of our own 5 test data that is based on testing that we**  **6 conducted and compared to the 7 publicly-available data. And we did note**  **8 some discrepancies between our test data and 9 what is publicly available, specifically for**  **10 multi-voltage, multi-capacity battery 11 chargers. So, we hope to explore that issue**  **12 with you and uncover any reason or ambiguities 13 on why some of our test data may be different,**  **14 as a result of the way the test procedure is 15 being applied.**  **16 We also want to make sure and 17 ensure that the test procedure is clear,**  **18 followed in the same way; that if multiple 19 entities are testing the same battery, that**  **20 the results are similar, as to be expected. 21 And if they are not, we want to explore the**  **22 reasons why they aren't. We hope to really**

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### 1 

### have a level playing field. So, when a **2** 

### battery is being tested by multiple entities, **3** 

### that the same test results are being achieved. **4** 

### So, we will be inviting comment on **5** 

### that test data, on a number of other issues **6** 

### that were presented in the Notice of Data **7** 

### Availability. And we invite participants to **8** 

### provide any summary comments or statements. **9** 

### And also, we will have an opportunity to raise **10** 

### additional items for discussion. So, that is **11** 

### the purpose of the meeting. **12** 

### So, I will jump now into some of the **13** 

### history of the test procedure and the energy **14** 

### conservation standards, and really explain **15** 

### how we got here. So, originally, the Energy **16** 

### Policy and Conservation Act, which was first **17** 

### enacted in 1975, although subsequently **18** 

### amended a number of times, established the **19** 

### Energy Conservation Program for Consumer **20** 

### Products Other Than Automobiles. Subsequent **21** 

### amendments to EPCA authorized DOE to regulate **22** 

### the energy efficiency of additional types of

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### 1 

### consumer products, which include battery **2** 

### chargers. **3** 

### So, from that law, DOE began its **4** 

### rulemaking with a test procedure, as we **5** 

### typically do to establish a way to measure the **6** 

### energy consumption or energy efficiency of a **7** 

### consumer product, in this case the battery **8** 

### charger. **9** 

### So, the final rule which **10** 

### established the battery charger test **11** 

### procedure was finalized in December of 2006 **12** 

### and has subsequently been amended in June 2011 **13** 

### to add additional tests, such as an **14** 

### active-mode energy consumption test. So, **15** 

### that was the last time in June 2011 that the **16** 

### test procedure was amended. **17** 

### So, here is kind of the history of **18** 

### both the test procedure and the standards **19** 

### rulemaking. As I just mentioned, the test **20** 

### procedure was finalized in 2011. It was **21** 

### finalized initially in 2006 and, then, amended **22** 

### in 2011.

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### 1 And then, on the standards side, we **2 have been engaged in rulemaking to consider 3 the promulgation of energy conservation**  **4 standards for battery chargers. That effort 5 began in 2009 with a standards framework**  **6 document, continued in 2010 with a standards 7 preliminary analysis.**  **8 In 2012, March 2012, and we have 9 already heard a couple of stakeholders allude**  **10 to the State DOE had proposed efficiency 11 standards for battery chargers at that time.**  **12 But, to date, those standards have not yet been 13 finalized, and DOE continues to defer and**  **14 consider if and when and how we would continue 15 that rulemaking.**  **16 We did, however, request 17 information in 2006 on any potential market**  **18 changes that may have impacted the initial 19 analysis that we performed when we first**  **20 proposed conservation standards of battery 21 chargers.**  **22 In 2014, we finalized a rulemaking**

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### 1 for external power supplies. And that is **2 noteworthy because, up until that point, we 3 were considering both external power supplies**  **4 and battery chargers with the same rulemaking. 5 And just a few months ago, in February of 2014,**  **6 we finalized the external power supply portion 7 of that rule while deferring for further**  **8 consideration the promulgation of standards 9 for battery chargers.**  **10 So now, it is June 2014 and we are 11 here to discuss the Notice of Data**  **12 Availability on the battery charger test 13 procedure. So, we can ascertain whether the**  **14 test procedure remains repeatable and 15 accurate and unambiguous.**  **16 It should be noted that in February 17 of 2013 manufacturers were required to begin**  **18 meeting standards for battery chargers in the 19 State of California. And these California**  **20 Energy Commission standards rely on DOE's test 21 procedure for their testing and**  **22 certification.**

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### 1 So, this slide here is on the test **2 procedure objectives. And I think this is an 3 important slide to consider because this is**  **4 the objectives that we look at. 5 When we go about our process of**  **6 considering a test procedure, we want to 7 ensure that a test procedure meets these**  **8 objectives: 9 That it is repeatable, meaning**  **10 that when it is performed multiple times, that 11 you are getting the same results, and that it**  **12 is reproducible. When various different 13 entities perform the test procedure, they**  **14 would also receive the same results. 15 That it is representative, meaning**  **16 that it actually represents the energy 17 consumption or efficiency of the product being**  **18 tested. 19 That it does not create any undue**  **20 burden in terms of time or money to conduct the 21 test.**  **22 That we anticipate technology**

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### 1 

### changes. That the test procedure remains **2** 

### applicable, even as technology changes. **3** 

### That it discourages **4** 

### circumvention, so manufacturers do not have **5** 

### any loopholes or other means to obtain results **6** 

### that will not be applicable under the test **7** 

### procedure. **8** 

### That it is unambiguous. That it **9** 

### is clear. That everyone understands how it **10** 

### should be followed. **11** 

### Where applicable, we aim to **12** 

### harmonize with any related test procedures. **13** 

### And then, finally, that it is **14** 

### consistent with our statutory authority. **15** 

### So, today we really want to make **16** 

### sure and ensure that these objectives are **17** 

### being met, and, if not, we are seeking input **18** 

### on how it can be improved or clarified to meet **19** 

### all of these objectives. **20** 

### So, that is our introduction. And **21** 

### I now will proceed into the next phase of our **22** 

### public meeting, where we will go over some of

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### 1 

### our own test results that we have achieved and **2** 

### tested, specifically for multi-voltage, **3** 

### multi-capacity battery chargers. **4** 

### So, as we have stated, when DOE **5** 

### originally proposed standards for battery **6** 

### chargers in 2012, we proposed standards that **7** 

### would achieve the maximum improvement in **8** 

### energy efficiency that is **9** 

### technologically-feasible and **10** 

### economically-justified. But, since the time **11** 

### of that analysis, the California Energy **12** 

### Commission standards have come into effect, **13** 

### and they have now been in effect for over a **14** 

### year. **15** 

### So, we did some testing to see if **16** 

### any revision to our analysis is necessary. **17** 

### So, we tested a couple of battery chargers to **18** 

### just get a better understanding of if any **19** 

### technology has changed or if things are new, **20** 

### to help us determine whether if that analysis **21** 

### needed to be revised. **22** 

### So, when we did that testing, we

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### 1 

### noted some ambiguities, and we put out this **2** 

### notice in order to present our test data **3** 

### compared to the test data that is available in **4** 

### the California Energy Commission database, so **5** 

### we could see if stakeholders could enlighten **6** 

### us at all and provide information to us on **7** 

### where the test procedure may be ambiguous or **8** 

### if clarity needs to be provided to make sure **9** 

### that the test procedure is being applied **10** 

### across the board in a similar manner. **11** 

### So, we looked at the CEC database **12** 

### and we selected some models for testing. And **13** 

### we purchased those models and tested them, **14** 

### based on the model numbers that appeared in the **15** 

### CEC database. **16** 

### So, the way that we tested these **17** 

### batteries, when we did our testing, and the way **18** 

### that we reported it was the model was for a **19** 

### battery charger only. And this battery **20** 

### charger unit may be sold on its own, a la carte, **21** 

### like the way we purchased it, but it is also **22** 

### possible that this same battery charger could

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### 1 

### be sold in a variety of other methods, like in **2** 

### a kit that includes an end-use application and **3** 

### a battery or multiple end-use applications and **4** 

### multiple batteries. **5** 

### So, given that we selected the **6** 

### battery and purchased the battery for testing **7** 

### a la carte, we followed how we believed the **8** 

### test procedure is written to test this **9** 

### battery. And that section refers to the **10** 

### method for battery selection based on the **11** 

### sections in the test procedure and the tables **12** 

### in the test procedure that deal with testing **13** 

### these types of batteries. **14** 

### And we realized that battery **15** 

### selection does have a significant impact on **16** 

### testing. So, we are interested in learning **17** 

### whether the discrepancies in our test results **18** 

### are potentially related to which battery was **19** 

### selected to test these battery chargers. **20** 

### So, when applicable, we purchased **21** 

### battery chargers with detachable batteries a **22** 

### la carte, and therefore, we purchased the

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### 1 batteries separately. **2 So, here on the next slide, this is 3 an excerpt from the test procedure. And the**  **4 test procedure, I think there are copies of it 5 in front of all of you, if you are not familiar**  **6 with it off the top of your head. But it is 7 also in the Code of Federal Regulations. It**  **8 is on regulations.gov, and you could find a 9 link to the test procedure on our website.**  **10 But what it essentially says here 11 is, for battery chargers with integral**  **12 batteries, which means that the battery is not 13 removable from the battery charger, then you**  **14 would test the battery package with the 15 charger. Simple enough.**  **16 But the issue comes up of how to 17 select the battery when there is a detachable**  **18 battery, and that depends, according to the 19 test procedure, on whether there are any**  **20 batteries packaged with the battery charger. 21 So, the test procedure here says**  **22 that, if batteries are packaged with the**

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### 1 

### charger, batteries for testing shall be **2** 

### selected from the batteries packaged with the **3** 

### battery charger, according to the procedure in **4** 

### 4.3.b, which essentially refers you to Table **5** 

### 4.1 to select batteries. And I will show you **6** 

### 4.1 on the next slide. **7** 

### But, in bold here, No. 2 under **8** 

### 4.3.a.2, it says, "If no batteries are **9** 

### packaged with the charger" -- and that was the **10** 

### case with the battery charger that we **11** 

### selected -- "but the instructions that **12** 

### accompany the battery charger specify or **13** 

### recommend batteries for use of the charger, **14** 

### batteries for testing shall be selected from **15** 

### those recommended or specified under the **16** 

### instructions, according to the procedure in **17** 

### 4.3.b," which refers you to Table 4.1. **18** 

### And then, it goes on and explains, **19** 

### "If no batteries are packaged with the charger **20** 

### and the instructions don't recommend or **21** 

### specify what batteries to use, then you would **22** 

### test with any batteries that are suitable for

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### 1 

### use with the charger." And again, you would **2** 

### use this Table 4.1, which I will show you right **3** 

### now. **4** 

### Here's Table 4.1. So, this table **5** 

### is really used if the charger is either **6** 

### multi-voltage, multi-port, multi-capacity, **7** 

### depending on whether it has those features, **8** 

### meaning multi-voltage means it could charge a **9** 

### battery with multiple voltages. Multi-port **10** 

### means it could charge multiple batteries at **11** 

### once. Multi-capacity means that it is **12** 

### capable of charging batteries in multiple **13** 

### capacities. **14** 

### Depending on that, you would refer **15** 

### to this chart, and each row here on this chart **16** 

### is mutually-exclusive. So, any single **17** 

### battery charger only one row should apply. **18** 

### So, in this case we tested, the **19** 

### battery that we tested was a multi-voltage, **20** 

### multi-capacity battery. And because of that, **21** 

### we would go down to the last line on this table, **22** 

### which would instruct us to conduct three

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### 1 

### tests. And the three tests would be to test **2** 

### the battery charger of the batteries with the **3** 

### lowest voltage that the battery charger could **4** 

### test; use the one with the lowest charge **5** 

### capacity, using only one port. **6** 

### Of the batteries with the highest **7** 

### voltage, use the one with the lowest charge **8** 

### capacity, using only one port. **9** 

### And then, finally, the third test **10** 

### would be to use all ports and use the **11** 

### configuration of the batteries with the **12** 

### highest total rated energy capacity. **13** 

### And so, those were the three tests **14** 

### that this Table 4.1 would specify for a **15** 

### multi-voltage, multi-capacity battery **16** 

### charger. **17** 

### And here are our test results. **18** 

### So, you could see here on this slide the test **19** 

### results that we got. **20** 

### First, actually, on the top is the **21** 

### CEC database data. This is the data that is **22** 

### from the CEC database for this battery

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### 1 

### charger, noting the 24-hour energy, the power **2** 

### and maintenance mode, the power and standby **3** 

### mode, and the battery energy. **4** 

### And then, here's our data below. **5** 

### And you could see our data here aligns to the **6** 

### different tests that we conducted. So, it **7** 

### says "Battery 1," which happened to be a **8** 

### nickel-cadmium battery, a NiCd battery. That **9** 

### is the battery with the lowest voltage and the **10** 

### lowest charge capacity. **11** 

### And then, Battery 2 is the battery **12** 

### with the highest voltage and lowest charge **13** 

### capacity. **14** 

### And Battery 3 was the battery we **15** 

### selected that met the criteria use all ports **16** 

### and use the battery or configuration of **17** 

### batteries with the highest total rated energy **18** 

### capacity. **19** 

### And it should be noted that this **20** 

### battery charger specifically is also capable **21** 

### of charging multi-chemistry batteries. So, **22** 

### that means that the battery charger control

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### 1 could charge batteries of multiple **2 chemistries. 3 And the test procedure in the table**  **4 doesn't exactly specify what to do here. So, 5 we tested both a NiCd and a lithium ion battery**  **6 that met the criteria for using all ports and 7 testing the battery or the configuration of**  **8 batteries with the highest total rated energy 9 capacity.**  **10 So, when we compared the results of 11 those three different tests, although the**  **12 third one we tested two different batteries, 13 we compared them to the CEC database, and we**  **14 were not able to determine based on our test 15 data or replicate the data that was available**  **16 in the CEC database. 17 So, we, then, tested a couple of**  **18 additional batteries, just to see if we could 19 also come close. And you can see the results**  **20 in front of you here for the data that we got 21 from our testing compared to the CEC data.**  **22 So, this was one model of testing.**

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### 1 This is the results for Model 1 that we tested, **2 and it is replicated from the Notice of Data 3 Availability.**  **4 We, then, tested a second model. 5 In this case it was essentially a similar**  **6 battery charger in that it also was 7 multi-voltage, multi-capacity. The one**  **8 difference here is, of the batteries that were 9 recommended to be used with this battery**  **10 charger, the battery with the highest voltage 11 and the lowest charge capacity happened to**  **12 also be the battery that had the highest total 13 rated energy capacity. And, as such, that**  **14 battery met the criteria for both that second 15 and third test. And that is why you only see**  **16 two of the tests, because one of those 17 batteries that we tested met both criteria.**  **18 And again, you could see here the differences 19 in the test data from our tests and the data**  **20 that was available in the CEC database for this 21 battery.**  **22 So, those are our test results. I**

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### 1 

### think at this time we are going to have a couple **2** 

### of questions that I want to open up to the floor **3** 

### to see if we can get some insight on. And **4** 

### there are a couple. I think maybe it would **5** 

### make the most sense to just kind of go through **6** 

### these issues, and then, I could open up the **7** 

### floor for comment on any specific one or **8** 

### multiple ones that anyone may have. **9** 

### So, the one question we have is how **10** 

### a battery is being selected when testing **11** 

### multi-voltage, multi-capacity chargers. It **12** 

### is a potential that that is a reason why we were **13** 

### not able to replicate the results in our **14** 

### testing. So, we want to just learn a little **15** 

### bit more about how manufacturers may be **16** 

### charging these types of batteries. We would **17** 

### hope that that information could help get at **18** 

### some of the differences that may have resulted **19** 

### in the way that we applied the test procedure. **20** 

### So, we are just really looking for that **21** 

### feedback. **22** 

### The multi-chemistry issue of, you

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### 1 know, if the battery charger is capable of **2 charging multi-chemistry batteries, are there 3 any differences that we would need to consider**  **4 in that case for testing a battery charger? 5 So, that is within Issue 1.**  **6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jeremy, 7 let's take them one at a time.**  **8 MR. DOMMU: Okay, sure. 9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes,**  **10 there's a lot of content here, potentially at 11 least.**  **12 And so, do you wish to start? Yes. 13 MR. DENKENBERGER: Dave**  **14 Denkenberger, ECOVA. 15 And sorry, I neglected earlier to**  **16 mention that I am representing the California 17 Investor-Owned Utilities.**  **18 If you could go back to the first 19 one, could you tell us how many ports?**  **20 MR. DOMMU: Yes. My 21 understanding is that there was only a single**  **22 port in this battery charger.**

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### 1 

### MR. DENKENBERGER: Okay. Is that **2** 

### true for the second one as well? **3** 

### MR. DOMMU: Yes. **4** 

### MR. DENKENBERGER: Okay. **5** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I am **6** 

### noting that the consultant from Navigant is **7** 

### nodding his head yes. Yes. **8** 

### So, there you see the question. **9** 

### How are the batteries being selected? How is **10** 

### the test procedure being applied for chargers **11** 

### capable of capable of charging **12** 

### multi-chemistry batteries? **13** 

### The data does seem to suggest that **14** 

### there is a lot of variability here. How do we **15** 

### explain this? **16** 

### Larry, do you want to start? **17** 

### MR. ALBERT: Just the question **18** 

### that has been posed, though, is just how are **19** 

### batteries being selected under multiple **20** 

### capacity. I think Jeremy's answer before is **21** 

### clear, that there is a defined and **22** 

### mutually-exclusive selection criteria that is

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### 1 already in the test procedure. And I don't **2 see that there is any ambiguity in applying the 3 rule.**  **4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, you 5 think that the rates described in the test**  **6 procedure, that there is no ambiguity? It is 7 really clear how people are going to come to**  **8 choose these batteries? 9 MR. ALBERT: I think, given a**  **10 population of batteries, there is one and only 11 battery for each of those cases, unless you**  **12 just happen to meet, as in the second case, the 13 requirements for both.**  **14 With respect to the second part of 15 that question, with respect to chemistry,**  **16 there is no mention of chemistry in the test 17 procedure, right? And so, therefore, it is**  **18 essentially blind to chemistry. So, reason 19 to make a distinction on one basis or another,**  **20 the way the test procedure is written today. 21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ashley**  **22 Armstrong?**

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### 1 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley **2** 

### from the Department. **3** 

### To your last point, I think that **4** 

### gets to DOE's question of, is there a need to **5** 

### distinguish? Because, clearly, what we have **6** 

### shown by our test results are that we get **7** 

### different answers for different chemistry **8** 

### batteries. And so, how is that being applied? **9** 

### Are those being reported differently? It **10** 

### seemed to us that they were under the same **11** 

### model number. How should those be paired for **12** 

### testing? What are you doing now? You are **13** 

### reporting to California. So, what are you **14** 

### doing now to either pair them or test them or **15** 

### get your representative values? **16** 

### MR. ALBERT: Just to be clear, we **17** 

### follow the test procedure. I think most **18** 

### people would follow the test procedure, and **19** 

### whichever ones fulfill those requirements, **20** 

### independent of chemistry, would be the one **21** 

### that you would test with, right? I don't **22** 

### think there is any ambiguity about it, right?

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### 1 

### The test procedure wasn't written **2** 

### being sensitive to chemistry, right? It was **3** 

### a clear decision at the time that the test **4** 

### procedure was written, and then, the **5** 

### subsequent NOPR, right, that there was not **6** 

### going to be any distinction with respect to **7** 

### chemistry? **8** 

### And so, since we don't have a **9** 

### standard at this point, right, there is no way **10** 

### of interpreting how test results could affect **11** 

### whether a product complies or doesn't comply **12** 

### with an efficiency standard. So, the only **13** 

### efficiency standard we have is the CEC **14** 

### standard, right? And, you know, their **15** 

### determination as to whether a product complies **16** 

### or not is based upon the results that they **17** 

### obtain when they accept test data from **18** 

### manufacturers to test themselves. **19** 

### Sorry, I am not quite **20** 

### understanding what specifically what the **21** 

### issue is. **22** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.

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### 1 

### Well, we are interested in getting additional **2** 

### comments related to Issue 1. Any thoughts? **3** 

### Maybe they diverge from Larry's experience on **4** 

### how batteries are being selected and how the **5** 

### test procedure is being applied. Because, **6** 

### clearly, there is a lot of variability in the **7** 

### test results. **8** 

### Alex Boesenberg? **9** 

### MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg **10** 

### from NEMA. **11** 

### To answer your question, **12** 

### Larry -- right? **13** 

### MR. ALBERT: Yes. **14** 

### MR. BOESENBERG: -- and I **15** 

### apologize if I cannot speak deeply technically **16** 

### about this, because we have only had the **17** 

### opportunity to speak about it a few times. **18** 

### And I am not a battery charger expert, but I **19** 

### am an engineer. **20** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Which gets **21** 

### you points in this room. **22** 

### MR. BOESENBERG: Thank you.

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### 1 

### My members have alerted me to a **2** 

### condition where, depending on the selection **3** 

### and pairing of the battery and the charger, and **4** 

### the way the test procedure is written, **5** 

### particularly in specifying discharge and **6** 

### charge cutoffs, there are cases where, due to **7** 

### protection circuitry in a battery, you can **8** 

### create a condition that causes the battery to **9** 

### self-terminate. It is a safety feature. **10** 

### That may or may not indicate a **11** 

### misapplication of the test procedure. I am **12** 

### still sort of ferreting that out. It may end **13** 

### up being an issue more so for the standard at **14** 

### that time when we simply specify that, if the **15** 

### battery self-terminates, you have to run the **16** 

### test again a different way. We particularly **17** 

### don't want to see that as a failure of the test. **18** 

### That is a proper application of the safety **19** 

### feature. **20** 

### However, if I can identify a way **21** 

### that satisfies my different members, and we **22** 

### will also be coordinating with ITI and others,

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### 1 if we think we can come up with a solution that **2 avoids self-termination, of course, we will 3 submit that in our written comments.**  **4 Thank you. 5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,**  **6 Alex. Thank you. That's a start on what 7 appears to be the mystery at this point.**  **8 Additional comments on how we 9 might describe these ambiguities, this**  **10 variability? 11 I am looking over at you, Erica.**  **12 You have nothing to add at this point? 13 MS. LOGAN: No, unfortunately**  **14 not. I'm in a similar situation to Alex, that 15 we are just starting to analyze this further,**  **16 but we have similar concerns about the battery 17 self-terminating.**  **18 But looking at the data that Jeremy 19 presented, there is a wide range there for**  **20 sure, and that is disconcerting. So, there 21 must be something related to battery chemistry**  **22 as well.**

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### 1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. **2 MS. LOGAN: But, anyway, we need 3 to analyze it further. Concern, you know,**  **4 intellectual property and protection of 5 confidential business information, if we try**  **6 to parse chemistries, is, of course going to 7 be an issue. But, somehow, we have got to make**  **8 this reproducible. So, we need to come up 9 with a recommendation.**  **10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 11 Thank you. The Department certainly welcomes**  **12 that. 13 Larry?**  **14 MR. ALBERT: So, the question was, 15 when this discrepancy was observed, did the**  **16 Department contact CEC and ask to resolve the 17 discrepancy between the data they had reported**  **18 and the data that the Department had measured? 19 That seemed to be an obvious first step.**  **20 Okay? 21 MR. KIDO: Michael Kido, DOE.**  **22 I am not going to comment on what**

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### 1 

### communications, if any, we might have had with **2** 

### CEC. Just in terms of looking at the data and **3** 

### our intentions to try to understand how the **4** 

### test procedure is actually be applied kind of **5** 

### raised these particular questions, which is **6** 

### kind of why we are here. **7** 

### So, I am not going to speak to how **8** 

### CEC might have interpreted any of these data **9** 

### points. I am sure someone from CEC is **10** 

### listening right now. So, I am not going to **11** 

### speak to their views on this. **12** 

### MR. ALBERT: And the Department **13** 

### only investigates attached pack battery **14** 

### chargers or did you look at other battery **15** 

### charger systems in your survey? I mean, how **16** 

### many different systems did you actually survey **17** 

### during your data collection process? **18** 

### MR. KIDO: I am going to defer to **19** 

### some of our technical folks. I think, based **20** 

### on the information that we already disclosed, **21** 

### I think that is the universe of what we did **22** 

### examine.

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### 1 MR. ALBERT: Two charging **2 systems? 3 MR. KIDO: I think so, but I am not**  **4 sure if there are others. 5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Peter?**  **6 MR. PROTOPAPPAS: We selected -- 7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: By the**  **8 microphone, Peter. Say your name for the 9 record.**  **10 MR. PROTOPAPPAS: This is Peter. 11 Okay. We selected over 60 units**  **12 to apply the DOE test procedure to. Of those 13 60, there was a lot of variability between the**  **14 DOE test results and the CEC database. These 15 are the most egregious. There may be a few**  **16 more we could pick out, but these were a good 17 example of the concerns that we have.**  **18 MR. ALBERT: These were all 19 detachable battery pack cases?**  **20 MR. PROTOPAPPAS: No, they are 21 integral systems, detachable systems. They**  **22 range a wide range of product classes, Product**

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### 1 Class 2 through 6. **2 MR. PROTOPAPPAS: Okay. So, the 3 general data has not been published by**  **4 Navigant or the Department, right, of the 5 entire survey of data?**  **6 MR. PROTOPAPPAS: That's correct. 7 I mean, we could publish it.**  **8 MR. ALBERT: Okay. So, you only 9 focused on these two cases, right?**  **10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Alex 11 Boesenberg?**  **12 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 13 Boesenberg from NEMA.**  **14 I wonder if you considered or asked 15 the question, or I would suggest that you look**  **16 into the concept that the CEC database, since 17 it is input by manufacturers, they may have**  **18 been conservative in their reporting. And an 19 actual tested unit may not reflect what is in**  **20 the database. Ideally, an actual tested unit 21 will have better results, and there is some**  **22 variation in self-reporting because of the**

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### 1 

### business decisions, et cetera. **2** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Alex, I think that **3** 

### would be one possible explanation, if that is **4** 

### the trend we are seeing. We are seeing the **5** 

### other way. **6** 

### MR. BOESENBERG: Okay. **7** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: And so, you are **8** 

### seeing, as Peter -- so, these examples that we **9** 

### are showing highlight what we think are some **10** 

### of the largest ambiguities potentially in our **11** 

### test procedure, which is why we want to have **12** 

### a conversation about what combinations you **13** 

### guys are choosing to test and, then, report to **14** 

### California, and how that maps up with the **15** 

### multiple tests that have to be done pursuant **16** 

### to our test procedure. **17** 

### Because when we execute the tests, **18** 

### we are not -- I mean, even if you were to **19** 

### conservatively rate, we are not coming up with **20** 

### those numbers. The number in the CEC is lower **21** 

### than is supported by the testing at this point **22** 

### in time.

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### 1 So, the Department potentially **2 there was some test procedure interpretation 3 issues and some clarity that need to be gained.**  **4 We also get a number of questions from a number 5 of different stakeholders. So, we are trying**  **6 to just learn here. What is being done now? 7 How are people coming up with the data that**  **8 they input? 9 It is our understanding that all**  **10 our battery chargers that we have purchased 11 and subsequently tested were supposed to be**  **12 compliant with the California standards, to 13 your question earlier; did match the model**  **14 numbers being reported in the database, and 15 were manufactured after the compliancy of the**  **16 California standard. 17 MR. ALBERT: And were purchased in**  **18 the State of California? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Like I said, it is**  **20 my understanding that they were supposed to be 21 compliant with the CEC standards, and I'll**  **22 leave it at that.**

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### 1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's **2 Larry. 3 Mike Rivest, do you want to comment**  **4 here? 5 MR. RIVEST: Yes. I think one of**  **6 the reasons for not putting all the data is we 7 want to use a few examples to see legitimately**  **8 if there are areas of misunderstanding before 9 creating all sorts of issues and alarming**  **10 people, right? I mean, it may be that out of 11 the issues that we find a lot of the so-called**  **12 discrepancies will be quickly resolved. And 13 then, we can focus on what remains. So, for**  **14 a lot of them, there are not big differences 15 in start with. It may be that by the end of**  **16 this meetings we will know what the causes are. 17 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,**  **18 NEMA. 19 Ashley, thank you for that extra**  **20 information. I appreciate that expanded 21 awareness that provides.**  **22 And I should state NEMA tends to**

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### 1 

### favor commercial products. As a result, a lot **2** 

### of my members have not yet completed redesigns **3** 

### because commercial products are not required **4** 

### to meet the California standard yet. So, with **5** 

### respect to California, I will shut up now. **6** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **7** 

### Yes, Larry, please. **8** 

### MR. ALBERT: Larry Albert again. **9** 

### So, the question, then, is that **10** 

### within the State of California the requirement **11** 

### is to comply with the requirement of the **12** 

### standards, right, the regulation? And the **13** 

### regulation requires that the products offered **14** 

### for sale in the State of California have to **15** 

### meet the requirements. **16** 

### I am a little concerned about the **17** 

### notion that what the database represents is a **18** 

### rating of energy efficiency, right? Because **19** 

### I don't think it was ever intended or stated **20** 

### that way. It was just stated that CEC is **21** 

### providing all the different model numbers, for **22** 

### whatever reason that they saw fit, but the

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### 1 

### requirement is that we comply. **2** 

### And clearly, in the case of the **3** 

### charging you measured that would not comply **4** 

### with the batteries that you selected within **5** 

### the State of California. That is not to say **6** 

### that that charger with the batteries that are **7** 

### available in the State of California would not **8** 

### comply, right? **9** 

### And so, if this is a surveillance, **10** 

### I guess, of compliance, right, that is one **11** 

### thing. If it is a question about whether **12** 

### ratings are adhered to, there is no **13** 

### anticipation that there is a rating of energy **14** 

### efficiency associated with these chargers. **15** 

### So, I guess that is one of the **16** 

### concerns here, and that ties in a little bit **17** 

### sort of tangentially with Issue No. 2. When **18** 

### we use the term "rating," right, what are we **19** 

### talking about here? Because I don't think **20** 

### there is any expectation that there is ratings **21** 

### applied. **22** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I don't

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### 1 think we are done with one yet. I want to stay **2 on one because no one yet has described, I 3 don't think, any of the variability.**  **4 And, Larry, as we were waiting to 5 get through security this morning, you told me**  **6 you were an electrical engineer. 7 MR. ALBERT: That is true.**  **8 (Laughter.) 9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I don't**  **10 want to put you on the spot, but what about 11 Alex's idea that discharge and charge cutoff**  **12 could skew these results? 13 MR. ALBERT: Discharge/cutoff is**  **14 addressed in the test proceeding, right? 15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It is.**  **16 MR. ALBERT: Yes, it is addressed 17 under 5.8.c(3), right? And then, where**  **18 specifically it addresses, if the current 19 continues to be drawn -- when the discharge**  **20 bolt is used the circuitry terminates the 21 discharge, right? So, I mean, in several**  **22 cases it does address the reality that modern**

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### 1 battery systems have end-of-discharge-type **2 termination circuitry, if that is what Alex is 3 referring to or if he is referring to charge**  **4 termination circuitry. 5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, just**  **6 to be clear, the purpose of this meeting today 7 is to see if we can get to the bottom of all**  **8 this variation in these results. So, I am 9 really hoping that we can just really explore**  **10 that as best we can. 11 I have a comment from Daniel Baston**  **12 who has joined us online. And he says, "One 13 of the largest variances is the actual**  **14 battery. From all of my testing, I have seen 15 well over 10 percent delta between batteries**  **16 of the same manufacturer and model." Ten 17 percent.**  **18 Additional thoughts on Issue No. 19 1?**  **20 (No response.) 21 Then, let's move to Issue No. 2.**  **22 "What rating is used for battery energy when**

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### 1 multiple batteries are tested?" **2 Doug? 3 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **4 If we could follow up from what you 5 mentioned before, Larry, I would like to**  **6 explore that a little bit more. 7 So, just to give you some**  **8 framework, the Department of Energy has our 9 database that we have for products that we**  **10 cover where we collect information for 11 products that are certified as compliant. As**  **12 part of that, the manufacturer who certifies 13 compliance reports to us their rated value for**  **14 what their product will perform at. 15 As Alex mentioned, manufacturers**  **16 can rate conservatively. So, your product 17 can be better performing than you would say to**  **18 us, but you want to rate conservatively 19 because you want your product line to perform**  **20 at least as well as what you are telling us it 21 is going to perform at.**  **22 So, our understanding is the**

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### 1 values reported to California would, **2 similarly, be ratings of what the product that 3 they are saying is compliant will perform at.**  **4 And it sounds to me like you are saying that 5 is not the case. So, I would like to explore**  **6 that a little bit more with you. 7 MR. ALBERT: This is Larry Albert**  **8 again. 9 So, I don't think in the California**  **10 Energy Commission regulation there is any 11 obligation to report a rated value. The**  **12 obligation is to comply with the limits, 13 right? And there is an obligation to report**  **14 your test data, right? 15 So, unless the DOE develops a**  **16 standard, right, that, in fact, requires 17 manufacturers to rate and report the rated**  **18 value, right, then there would be no 19 expectation that the numbers that you are**  **20 reading in the CEC database represented 21 anything close to a rating.**  **22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, can I ask you**

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### 1 a question then? **2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ashley 3 Armstrong.**  **4 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley 5 from DOE.**  **6 What are you putting in the 7 database? What is that number?**  **8 MR. ALBERT: Whatever the CEC 9 tells us to report, which I believe is the test**  **10 data. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, that should**  **12 match -- I mean, we are comparing that number 13 to test data that we tested ourselves,**  **14 correct? So, there will be some variances, 15 but it should be similar, in the ballpark.**  **16 MR. ALBERT: This is Larry again. 17 But Doug's question before was**  **18 related to DOE's past experience with 19 establishing energy efficiency ratings, which**  **20 could be conservatively reported, right? It 21 is not necessarily test data. Test data has**  **22 to be within the ratings, correct?**

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### 1 MR. RAWALD: So, I guess I want to **2 make my terminology really clear because I 3 definitely don't want to cause confusion.**  **4 So, what we consider to be your 5 rating is what the manufacturer reports to be**  **6 the fullness of their product. So, the 7 standard, which requires a minimal rating of**  **8 some sort or a maximum for a consumption-type 9 item, but what you rate your product is not**  **10 what we say the standard is in our estimation. 11 So, a manufacturer, say, reports**  **12 their product is 95 percent efficient. The 13 standard could be 90 percent, but the rating**  **14 that the manufacturer has said to us is 95, if 15 I am making myself clear on that point.**  **16 MR. ALBERT: It's Larry again. 17 It is clear that the question**  **18 really is that you are applying sort of the DOE 19 sensibility to another jurisdiction which has**  **20 its own rules established, right, for how the 21 information is to be presented and what**  **22 constitutes compliance on the part of the**

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### 1 people being regulated. **2 So, if the CEC regulation doesn't 3 require any of that, there is no expectation**  **4 on your part that what you are seeing reported 5 is a rating. And so, if that is what you want,**  **6 then I think you need to write a standard that 7 says we want a rating, right, and do it that**  **8 way. But that is not necessarily what CEC is 9 requiring, right? So, if you are**  **10 interpreting it that way, you may be 11 misinterpreting it, right?**  **12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I 13 understand that Ken Rider, who is online, has**  **14 a comment at this point. 15 Ken, unmute your phone, and I think**  **16 we probably can hear you. 17 MR. RIDER: Can you hear me all**  **18 right? 19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You sound**  **20 great. 21 MR. RIDER: Yes, this is Ken Rider**  **22 from the California Energy Commission. I**

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### 1 

### just wanted to add a couple of things to this **2** 

### conversation. **3** 

### The first is in terms of the test **4** 

### results that we collect in the database. The **5** 

### idea is to inject three separate tests for **6** 

### these types of products. In test mode, it's **7** 

### important to collect, we set up, post some of **8** 

### the regulations, we need our code there for **9** 

### manufacturers to submit. **10** 

### I believe that the highest **11** 

### results, and to speak the under- and **12** 

### over-reporting, it does allow padding of **13** 

### results toward numbers that would show less **14** 

### efficiency or higher energy consumption. It **15** 

### is not what, I think the DOE's additional test **16** 

### data shows. **17** 

### With our variety, I think it is **18** 

### pretty clear, at least from I think Example 1, **19** 

### that the test was not run correctly. I mean, **20** 

### we can see -- and we will get to this later, **21** 

### I think, about the battery energy was larger **22** 

### than the charger energy.

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### 1 The other thing I see in both **2 examples is that the standby power is 3 different, significantly different, way**  **4 outside of the normal areas, and that doesn't 5 even have every chemistry or some variant as**  **6 to what it contributes to differences between. 7 And that, to me, is a more alarming result and**  **8 more red flags to me about inconsistency in 9 applying the federal test procedure. And**  **10 maybe that was incorrectly run. 11 One thing that I have come across**  **12 in looking at the report is an inconsistency 13 in how the discharge test is run to measure the**  **14 battery energy. In some cases the battery was 15 conditioned and, then, also, initially**  **16 discharged, and it was not consistent with the 17 federal testing procedure, but what some**  **18 manufacturers have done that, or test labs, is 19 to actually do the initial discharge before**  **20 the charge using the product itself to 21 discharge rather than battery analyzer, as**  **22 required by the test procedure.**

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### 1 And so, that led to some **2 inconsistent measurements of battery energy 3 and charged energy. And I will get more into**  **4 that when we get into that issue of differences 5 of energy where the battery energy was larger**  **6 than the 24-hour energy. 7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **8 Ken, thank you. And I should note that you 9 were kind of breaking up intermittently as you**  **10 were speaking. So, I am not sure quite what 11 that is. But, anyway, I'm not sure quite what**  **12 that was, but maybe when you join us later, you 13 can get a -- I don't know whether you are doing**  **14 voice-over-internet or what. Anyway, maybe 15 you can find a clearer land line or something.**  **16 MR. RIDER: We will try. 17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Larry, it**  **18 looks like you were leafing through your 19 papers. Do you have some additional thoughts**  **20 on this? 21 MR. ALBERT: I would just like to**  **22 ask, can Ken hear me if I ask him a question?**

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### 1 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Ken **2** 

### can hear you, yes. **3** 

### MR. ALBERT: So, Ken, you **4** 

### mentioned that you have an observation that **5** 

### some of the differences may be as a result of **6** 

### how the battery is discharged, and it is not **7** 

### being done in accordance with the test **8** 

### procedure? **9** 

### MR. RIDER: Yes, there's been a **10** 

### few cases of that. I mean, we are trying to **11** 

### keep our data clean. And when we see things **12** 

### like the issue by the DOE in trying to look into **13** 

### what are the issues with our manufacturers. **14** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Just to be **15** 

### clear -- this is Ashley from DOE -- I think he **16** 

### is saying, indeed, in data he collects for CEC **17** 

### there are instances where he has found his own **18** 

### issues, not necessarily in the specific data **19** 

### we presented on the fly for DOE testing. **20** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **21** 

### MR. RIDER: Correct. **22** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay.

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### 1 Thank you for that clarification, Ashley, and **2 also you, Ken. 3 Back to you, Larry.**  **4 MR. ALBERT: No, that's fine. 5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's**  **6 enough? Okay. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I do want to**  **8 follow up on something that both Larry 9 mentioned and Ken mentioned on the phone.**  **10 And this is Ashley. 11 It seems to me that you guys are**  **12 both indicating that the test data that you end 13 up entering into the California database**  **14 should be representative of the number of 15 tests pursuant to Table 4.1, the most**  **16 conservative number or the highest energy 17 consumption combination of the tests that you**  **18 are required to do for a given model that is 19 sold in the State of California. Do I have**  **20 that correct? Is that what manufacturers are 21 currently doing?**  **22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Larry?**

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### 1 MR. ALBERT: So, Larry. **2 So, as you can see in the case of 3 the last line of the table, you are required**  **4 to do three independent, three separate tests, 5 right? And so, there is only one line for**  **6 recording that data in the sheet that CEC 7 provides. And so, we have to comply with all**  **8 three cases. So, the question of compliance 9 is not at issue, just the question of**  **10 reporting, right? 11 We choose what we would call the**  **12 worst case, right, and that's what we will 13 report, right? But it doesn't mean that we**  **14 don't comply with the other two cases. 15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Is that**  **16 specified in the test procedure, that you just 17 choose the worst case?**  **18 MR. ALBERT: No, it's not. 19 Again, the test procedure tells you how to test**  **20 it. CEC has rules for both the regulation, 21 which says you have to comply, and they,**  **22 additionally, have requirements for people**

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### 1 

### who register their products with CEC in terms **2** 

### of how they want to report it, right, which **3** 

### falls outside of the test procedure, right. **4** 

### So, it is a very different kind of **5** 

### thing, right? And, again, if CEC has issues **6** 

### with manufacturers and how they are reporting **7** 

### it, then that is an agreement between CEC and **8** 

### those manufacturers, right? So, it is not **9** 

### necessarily a misapplication of the test **10** 

### procedure. **11** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, if you **12** 

### are testing three batteries and you are only **13** 

### reporting one, do you think that accounts for **14** 

### the discrepancies or it contributes to the **15** 

### discrepancies we are observing here? **16** 

### MR. ALBERT: No. Well, I am just **17** 

### saying that one obvious question that DOE **18** 

### might have asked themselves is, obviously, you **19** 

### need to test three. Why is there only one, **20** 

### right? And so, that alone would have probably **21** 

### raised the flag, right, and so, independent of **22** 

### the question of whether the numbers match up

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### 1 or anything else like that. **2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 3 MR. RAWALD: Doug Rawald. This**  **4 is Doug. 5 I do want to say that is a question**  **6 that came up, and we were able to find out from 7 the web page that that is an input issue that**  **8 we were aware of from our office point of view. 9 I do want to get back to the rating**  **10 discussion that we had earlier. Because what 11 I heard from Ken seemed to marry up with what**  **12 I was saying that we thought, which is that 13 manufacturers report to us a value, and they**  **14 report to CEC a value they obtain from the test 15 data. And they can, of course, as he called**  **16 it "padding," we call it "conservatively 17 rate". So, you can say, "Oh, it performed**  **18 less well than my test data showed." 19 But what we are concerned about is**  **20 when we see data that is better than what our 21 testing would show. In this case what we have**  **22 here, as Ashley pointed out, is data from the**

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### 1 CEC database seems to be better than what we **2 can achieve from testing. And so, we would 3 consider that to be a rating, devoid of there**  **4 being a standard out, we consider a rating test 5 what you get from your testing or you lower**  **6 rate to pad it a little bit. So, that is kind 7 of where we are coming from.**  **8 MR. ALBERT: And again, I don't 9 want to belabor the point, but our**  **10 understanding is that, just even from what Ken 11 said, while that may be an option, it is not**  **12 a requirement, right? Manufacturers may or 13 may not just simply report the data they**  **14 receive from testing, right, so that they can 15 show a clear line from the test results that**  **16 they acquired in the laboratory to what they 17 reported to CEC.**  **18 CEC, as far as I understand it, has 19 not established a requirement that you have a**  **20 rating and that all subsequent testing falls 21 within that rating, which may be the case with**  **22 other rules within DOE, right?**

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### 1 So, again, I don't know if your **2 expectation is what you are seeing in the 3 website, is that that's rating data, and**  **4 therefore, you expect all field-tested units 5 to fall within that, right. I don't believe**  **6 that is a reasonable expectation based upon 7 how CEC has arranged their -- and I don't want**  **8 to speak for them because, obviously, I don't 9 work for them, right.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: So, if I can just ask 11 one follow up? I think I am seeing where we**  **12 are here. 13 It is that the value reported to**  **14 CEC doesn't necessarily, in the opinion 15 of -- that's what I hear you expressing -- have**  **16 to be representative of the actual model line, 17 that tested units can perform worse than that**  **18 value that is being reported to CEC as long as 19 they have test data supporting that they got**  **20 that value in testing one unit of that model 21 and to report to the CEC.**  **22 MR. ALBERT: My understanding of**

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### 1 

### our relationship with CEC, right, is that we **2** 

### measure data within the laboratory and report **3** 

### that data, right, as accurately as possible, **4** 

### right. And so, while there is a provision **5** 

### perhaps that that data could be padded, as Ken **6** 

### would say, right, manufacturers are not **7** 

### obliged to follow that. They can fulfill **8** 

### their obligation to CEC just by the **9** 

### straightforward reporting of whatever they **10** 

### measured, providing that that data is, in **11** 

### fact, measured of the proper unit, and so on, **12** 

### and is compliant with the standard. **13** 

### Of course, CEC conducts, I'm sure, **14** 

### field surveillance, right, in which case they **15** 

### take units from the manufacturers in the State **16** 

### of California and determine whether those **17** 

### units also comply. I don't know that there is **18** 

### an implied obligation that the data that they **19** 

### record from their testing matches the data **20** 

### that is reported in the database. At least **21** 

### they have never explicitly stated that to us, **22** 

### right?

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### 1 It is just that the product needs **2 to comply in the field. It needs to comply 3 with the reported data. There is no explicit**  **4 statement on the part of CEC, as I understand 5 it, right, that that constitutes what DOE**  **6 would normally consider a rating. 7 MR. RAWALD: Right. And this is**  **8 Doug. 9 So, just to give a number for this,**  **10 if the standard was 70 and the manufacturer 11 reported 90 and the CEC result was an 80, that**  **12 would be not a problem in their mind because 13 it is still above the 70. That is what we are**  **14 getting at, I think, in our discussion. 15 MR. ALBERT: Yes, that is my**  **16 understanding, yes. 17 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Okay. Now I**  **18 understand what you're saying. Thank you. 19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **20 John? Oh, pardon me. Dave? 21 MR. DENKENBERGER: Dave**  **22 Denkenberger.**

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### 1 

### Maybe to make this concrete as **2** 

### well, just looking at the battery 1 result, **3** 

### battery energy being 8.68 watt hours and **4** 

### 24-hour energy being 39.56, I am pretty sure **5** 

### that would not be in compliance with the CEC **6** 

### regulation. **7** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Doug **8** 

### Rawald? **9** 

### MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. **10** 

### I want to be very sensitive to the **11** 

### fact that we don't want to delve into whether **12** 

### folks are complying or not with the California **13** 

### standard because, first of all, it is not our **14** 

### bailiwick, and secondly, that is not the focus **15** 

### of this. **16** 

### We just want to understand how **17** 

### there could be differences in the results from **18** 

### what we are getting from our testing versus **19** 

### what is reported in that CEC database. So, I **20** 

### do want to not go down the path of compliance **21** 

### with the California standards. **22** 

### MR. DENKENBERGER: Okay, but just

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### 1 as an example, you know, that is an example of **2 being the opposite of conservative. That is, 3 if the true case were that first line, it is**  **4 not consistent with reporting to the CEC. 5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Larry?**  **6 MR. ALBERT: Larry again. 7 So, yes, I agree, obviously,**  **8 right? 9 MR. DENKENBERGER: Okay.**  **10 MR. ALBERT: But, then, as we 11 mentioned earlier on, it is not clear that the**  **12 unit that was acquired by DOE was, in fact, 13 purchased within the State of California and**  **14 manufactured after the effective date, right? 15 If it wasn't, then there is no expectation that**  **16 they would be compliant, right? If it was, 17 then perhaps the manufacturer was**  **18 non-compliant and should be reported, right? 19 But, in any case, it doesn't**  **20 necessarily reflect on a shortcoming of the 21 test procedure with respect to its R&R, right?**  **22 Because the differences are so great here,**

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### 1 right, that it would be hard to believe we are **2 talking about, in fact, the same product, 3 right?**  **4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 Thank you, Larry.**  **6 Should we move on to Issue 2? 7 Three?**  **8 Do you want to cue up Issue 3? 9 MR. DOMMU: Sure, yes.**  **10 So, Issue 3 is really we are 11 asking, how do we solve this? Is the test**  **12 procedure okay to test these type of 13 batteries? Are changes needed? Do the**  **14 results of the test procedure ensure that we 15 are going to get accurate, consistent results**  **16 when testing these types of batteries? Or are 17 there any specific recommendations that would**  **18 be necessary to accommodate testing of these 19 types of battery charges to make sure that the**  **20 testing is repeatable; it is being conducted 21 in the same manner by all labs?**  **22 So, here we are just really opening**

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### 1 up the floor and asking, what could we do **2 better? How could we improve the test 3 procedure to make it so we are not finding**  **4 these type of variability’s? 5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And,**  **6 Larry, so far, you have said you have implied 7 you thought it was sufficient. This is your**  **8 opportunity to improve it. 9 MR. ALBERT: So, the first**  **10 question is the word "accurate," right? 11 Generally, when we look at test procedures and**  **12 their application, we look at repeatability 13 and reproducibility, right?**  **14 The question of accuracy is a 15 question as to whether, I guess, does the**  **16 number that you derive from the testing, is it 17 meaningful with respect to whatever ultimate**  **18 standards you create, right? 19 So, if the question really is about**  **20 what we would call R&R, right, that is 21 repeatability and reproducibility, right, we**  **22 believe that the test procedures sufficiently**

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### 1 

### need to show that with the same population of **2** 

### charger and battery pack. In the case of **3** 

### detachable systems, right, you would always **4** 

### select the same ones, right? You would always **5** 

### test it the same way. **6** 

### In terms of repeatability of the **7** 

### testing, that would be if you had exactly the **8** 

### same unit and battery packs, would you get the **9** 

### same numbers if you repeated the test over and **10** 

### over again? The answer is that has been our **11** 

### experience. You get that within the normal **12** 

### experimental error associated with the **13** 

### standard, right? **14** 

### Variation from unit to unit is **15** 

### another question entirely, right, which is not **16** 

### addressed in the test procedure. And the **17** 

### question of accuracy is really the question **18** 

### that Jeremy introduced earlier on with, is the **19** 

### test procedure representative, right? But **20** 

### that is really more of a question of what is **21** 

### the standard that is going to be used, what is **22** 

### the standard ultimately that will use the data

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### 1 

### from the test procedure? That would be the **2** 

### only way of establishing, is the question of **3** 

### whether it is representative or not. **4** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley **5** 

### from DOE. **6** 

### I am going to take it back to Doug's **7** 

### point earlier. So, I don't think DOE at this **8** 

### point is concerned with is it accurate **9** 

### compared to a given standard level, but do we **10** 

### have a method of test that provides enough **11** 

### guidance, enough specificity for **12** 

### manufacturers to come up with a rating? **13** 

### And I realize there seems to be **14** 

### some disagreement about whether or not the **15** 

### representations being made to California do **16** 

### actually represent ratings or not. But, **17** 

### then, the question becomes, is the method **18** 

### accurate in determining the rating? It is not **19** 

### about a standard level. It is about the **20** 

### number you choose to represent your product's **21** 

### efficiency. And I think there is a very clear **22** 

### difference there.

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### 1 MR. ALBERT: This is Larry again. **2 If the Department were to 3 establish a requirement that manufacturers**  **4 state a rating, right, in which case the 5 manufacturer would say, "We have this**  **6 efficiency level," right, then the test 7 procedure would be satisfactory in being able**  **8 to achieve that because manufacturers would 9 ensure that all of the products that they would**  **10 produce, right, even though they might have 11 some part-to-part variation, right, would**  **12 fall within that rating, right? 13 However, that is not the**  **14 requirement right now at the federal level, 15 and it does not appear to be the case at the**  **16 California level, right? So, the question 17 right now is, if I take a particular unit and**  **18 I test it, and I test that same unit again, do 19 we get the same numbers? And our experience**  **20 has been, yes, that is the case, right? 21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, you**  **22 don't see any real opportunities for**

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### 1 improvement that you would like to see, since **2 we have an open question about how the testing 3 is done, how variability could or would be**  **4 diminished? You don't see any potential for 5 improvement in the test procedure? That**  **6 doesn't sound like an engineer to me. 7 (Laughter.)**  **8 MR. ALBERT: I would say that the 9 ultimate requirement for the test procedure is**  **10 does it satisfy the requirements of the 11 standard, right? We don't have a standard.**  **12 And so, it is hard to judge the suitability of 13 the test procedure in the absence of that,**  **14 right? 15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Doug**  **16 Rawald? 17 MR. RAWALD: So, I want to talk**  **18 about this from a level devoid of the standard. 19 I think the existence of a standard shouldn't**  **20 affect the ability of a test procedure to come 21 up with a representative value for the actual**  **22 model itself.**

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### 1 So, we rely upon testing of **2 individual units to come to an assessment of 3 how does the actual overall model line**  **4 perform. And so, the question is, does the 5 test procedure that we currently have in place**  **6 get to a number that represents how the entire 7 model itself functions and performs? And it**  **8 sounds like you are saying in your experience 9 it does, but it is not necessarily a**  **10 requirement that it does. Now I want to be 11 clear about that first.**  **12 MR. ALBERT: Okay. So, to be 13 clear -- this is Larry again -- the test**  **14 procedure does not require you to establish a 15 rating. It just requires you to conduct the**  **16 test. Okay? 17 You come up with a number. If you**  **18 test a bunch of different units of the same 19 model number, you are going to going to get**  **20 variation, just because of manufacturing 21 variation, right?**  **22 If there was a requirement that you**

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### 1 

### had to fulfill a certain standards level, **2** 

### right, then the manufacturer would have to **3** 

### make sure that that variation was constrained **4** 

### enough, right, that all of the units that they **5** 

### were to produce would fall within the **6** 

### limitations of the standard, right? **7** 

### If the Department said, "You have **8** 

### to come up with a rating and you can never **9** 

### exceed that rating," right, then that is **10** 

### another requirement, right? And again, **11** 

### manufacturers could comply with that using **12** 

### this test procedure. **13** 

### All the test procedure does is **14** 

### test, right? It doesn't itself make the **15** 

### representation, right? **16** 

### The question of representation, **17** 

### which I believe is a question of, does it **18** 

### represent a meaningful representation of the **19** 

### energy efficiency or consumption of energy, **20** 

### right, is truly not what this test procedure **21** 

### does, right? It just generates some numbers **22** 

### which can be used subsequently in a standard,

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### 1 right, to establish whether you comply or you **2 don't comply. 3 That standard, for example, the**  **4 standard that was offered up to the NOPR, 5 right, does not yet exist, right? CEC has**  **6 their own standard that uses the same test 7 procedure, right, but uses it in a way**  **8 differently than what the NOPR had conceived, 9 right?**  **10 And neither of them seem to require 11 at this point, anyway, the declaration on the**  **12 part of the manufacturer of a rating, right? 13 And if that was the requirement, then**  **14 manufacturers would comply, right? 15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, we**  **16 have a comment or a question from Spencer 17 Stock, who asks, "It was maintained earlier**  **18 that 60 models were tested and that these two 19 models were the most `egregious,'"**  **20 quote/unquote. "Were most of the other 58 21 models more in line with DOE testing, and these**  **22 two models are a case of mis-testing or**

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### 1 

### misreporting by the manufacturers?" **2** 

### We are just about due for a break. **3** 

### So, let's take a break. And when we return **4** 

### from the break, Wayne Kelso has a comment. **5** 

### So, it is now 10:30. Let's take a **6** 

### break for 15 minutes. **7** 

### Let me remind you -- most of you are **8** 

### familiar with the protocol here -- you must **9** 

### wear a badge while you're walking around. **10** 

### There are restrooms on both ends of **11** 

### the hall. There is coffee shop on the ground **12** 

### floor, if you get on the elevator, go down to **13** 

### the ground floor, just about beneath us on the **14** 

### other side of the hall. **15** 

### So, we made a good start on it, and **16** 

### we will see you back here. We will resume at **17** 

### 10:45. **18** 

### (Whereupon, the foregoing matter **19** 

### went off the record at 10:31 a.m. and went back **20** 

### on the record at 10:47 a.m.) **21** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, **22** 

### let's resume.

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### 1 Thanks, all of you, for a good **2 start this morning. 3 Just before we broke, Spencer**  **4 Stock asked this question, and I am going to 5 read it again.**  **6 "It was mentioned earlier that 60 7 models were tested and that these two models**  **8 were the most," quote, "`egregious,'" 9 unquote. "Were most of the other 58 models**  **10 more in line with DOE testing, and these two 11 models are a case of mis testing or**  **12 misreporting by the manufacturers?" 13 Ashley Armstrong?**  **14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, this is 15 Ashley.**  **16 So, the data from the 60-model 17 suggests variances across the board. There**  **18 were some that were pretty closely aligned 19 with the data we saw reported. There were**  **20 some that were slightly different, either 21 above or below. There were some that were**  **22 further off. We just picked these two**

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### 1 

### examples they highlight some of the larger **2** 

### questions or the larger potential ambiguities **3** 

### in our test procedure as discussion points. **4** 

### So, I don't have the data in front **5** 

### of me to tell you "X" number were off by this **6** 

### much, but the data was kind of all over the map, **7** 

### I think, is the less technical way to say it. **8** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **9** 

### So, I guess, then, did you get the information **10** 

### you needed? Thank you. **11** 

### Then, when we left, we were on **12** 

### Issue No. 3, and Jeremy Dommu said this is an **13** 

### opportunity to generally speak to the test **14** 

### procedure, talk about ways to improve it, talk **15** 

### about ways you do the test, and how that could **16** 

### be different, or how DOE should be doing the **17** 

### test procedure that it is not doing now. **18** 

### And before we leave Issue No. 3, **19** 

### let's see if we have any additional comments **20** 

### in that direction. **21** 

### (No response.) **22** 

### Nothing additional. Okay. So, I

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### 1 guess we will move on, then, with the content. **2 MR. DOMMU: Okay. So, welcome 3 back everybody. We are going to move on in the**  **4 public meeting to talk about three other 5 issues that we are soliciting -- yes?**  **6 MR. SALAS: Sorry, before the 7 break, I know Wayne wanted to submit a comment**  **8 and question. 9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Oh, thank**  **10 you, and I forgot that. I apologize. Wayne 11 Kelso, I apologize to you. You have a**  **12 comment, and please unmute your phone and 13 speak.**  **14 MR. KELSO: Good morning. 15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good**  **16 morning. 17 MR. KELSO: Wayne Kelso, Blue Sea**  **18 Systems and the National Marine Manufacturers 19 Association.**  **20 I prepared a short presentation 21 which we may or may not have an opportunity to**  **22 look at, specifically with lead acid**

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### 1 

### batteries. But the discrepancies you were **2** 

### seeing with NiCd suggest some of the same **3** 

### effects are in play. So, this is very **4** 

### nuts-and-bolts technology. **5** 

### But the issues are that, when we **6** 

### tested a la carte chargers certainly, but all **7** 

### of the tests are not testing battery chargers. **8** 

### They are testing battery chargers and **9** 

### batteries as a system. That may or may not be **10** 

### the intention, but it is the effect. **11** 

### And when you get to an a la carte **12** 

### charger, the manufacturer has no influence **13** 

### over the source and type of battery, you would **14** 

### introduce a host of variables. In the case of **15** 

### lead acid batteries, they are very ill-suited **16** 

### to being discharged in five hours to a power **17** 

### level of zero. **18** 

### They are very sensitive to their **19** 

### prior handling, so as we see, may be **20** 

### introducing huge variables, how long they have **21** 

### been stored, how they have been treated prior **22** 

### to that.

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### 1 

### And finally, there is a big **2** 

### discrepancy in the power at the tail. And if **3** 

### you go back to your table with concern on the **4** 

### NiCd batteries, I think we are seeing the same **5** 

### effect. **6** 

### If you notice, there is -- well, **7** 

### you are correct there. That is good. **8** 

### If we look at the largest NiCd **9** 

### battery, suddenly the maintenance power is **10** 

### going way up. Depending on the nature of the **11** 

### charger, with lead acid batteries we would **12** 

### look at that and say, "Well, we probably **13** 

### haven't achieved maintenance mode yet," on the **14** 

### tail of a charging performance and staking **15** 

### that for maintenance power. And 24 hours, **16** 

### depending on the charger, may not be enough to **17** 

### pull this battery completely up and satisfy it **18** 

### and put it into its maintenance mode. **19** 

### So, the upside is kind of the gist **20** 

### of -- I have some slides that are with lead **21** 

### acid, right? **22** 

### MR. DOMMU: Yes, you do have the

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### 1 

### slides. Do you want to go through them now? **2** 

### MR. KELSO: I will take that, yes, **3** 

### it is your pleasure. I would be happy to walk **4** 

### through them. I will try to keep it brief for **5** 

### everybody because it sounds like there is a **6** 

### huge diversity of interest. But if you are **7** 

### willing to do that, this would probably be a **8** 

### good time. **9** 

### MR. DOMMU: Yes, sure. Why don't **10** 

### we give you a couple of minutes to run through **11** 

### the slide presentation? That would be fine. **12** 

### MR. KELSO: Okay. So, my **13** 

### specific interest is lead acid batteries. We **14** 

### are in the marine battery charger business, **15** 

### but marine battery chargers, RVs, and police **16** 

### fire/safety equipment generally end up using **17** 

### very similar equipment. **18** 

### And we spoke earlier about the **19** 

### tests. We said that one of the issues here is **20** 

### that we support active loads while we are **21** 

### charging. Charging and discharging are not **22** 

### so easily distinguished because we are

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### 1 permanently connected to our loads and **2 permanently connected to the battery charger. 3 When AC appears, the battery charger takes**  **4 over things like alarms and bilge pumps and 5 refrigerators, and so forth, and goes into a**  **6 mode as also being a power supply. 7 So, we don't get the luxury of**  **8 shutting up and going away after the battery 9 is charged. There's a lot of circuits that**  **10 need to keep alive, and that differentiates us 11 from other applications.**  **12 But lead acid batteries are 13 extremely dominant in this area. I would say**  **14 that the lithium and other battery chemistry 15 made some entry into marine, but it is a little**  **16 like saying Lamborghini is a big mention to the 17 automotive market. They are not on every**  **18 corner. 19 So, the point here, lead acid**  **20 batteries are designed and rated for slower 21 discharge rates in the test methodology, and**  **22 few lead acid batteries are designed for full**

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### 1 discharge. I would say that none really like **2 it. 3 And the charge and discharge rates**  **4 have a profound impact on measurable capacity. 5 So, you end up with your BE number wandering**  **6 around when you have a high charge and 7 discharge rate.**  **8 And then, the final charge can be 9 this slow process where you are actually still**  **10 charging the battery. And under the 11 provisions of the test, we are invited to**  **12 assume that we are a maintenance mart, and that 13 that would represent the power we would use for**  **14 the next two weeks if we have been connected. 15 Next slide, please.**  **16 Lead acid batteries are sensitive 17 to charge and discharge testing. So, I think**  **18 these batteries, as we see flaws in there, it 19 is probably a great source of variability**  **20 because different manufacturer, transport, 21 storage; they seldom arrive fully charged at**  **22 the lab.**

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### 1 And because they have got some **2 memory and these are porous surfaces, you have 3 some of those spaces deep in that structure of**  **4 porosity that may not be fully charged and may 5 not be fully charged at the time that you begin**  **6 your first discharge test, and may not readily 7 recharge when you do your recharge cycle.**  **8 They are designed for slower 9 rates. If you look at standard Battery**  **10 Council ratings, they are typically 11 three-hour discharge, and you can get even**  **12 more energy if you discharge more slowly than 13 that. But their fast discharge leads to a**  **14 less-predictable interval recovery. AGM 15 batteries tolerate that better than flooded**  **16 cells, and classic flooded cells are designed 17 for long, long life in, say, telecomm**  **18 applications. 19 And then, once you apply the**  **20 charging period is an issue. And all three of 21 those can be addressed with relatively-minor**  **22 changes in the test.**

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### 1 Next. **2 Okay. First, I think we would 3 make our batteries preconditioning optional.**  **4 I think we need to discuss what constraints we 5 would put on that preconditioning, but,**  **6 basically, you want to begin that test after 7 having a long and thorough charge because of**  **8 the deep porosity in these batteries if you are 9 going to be predictable. You don't know how**  **10 well-charged some of those sites are in the 11 lead. And my guess is it would be multiple**  **12 cycles. 13 The other thing about the "as**  **14 received" problem says that these reusable 15 batteries become single-use batteries. They**  **16 are only as received once. And if you have to 17 do multiple battery tests, going out and**  **18 buying multiple batteries to do those is a 19 burden.**  **20 So, laboratories should at least 21 set their own quality control to determine the**  **22 fitness of batteries. Batteries generally**

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### 1 

### improve over the first 20 to 100 cycles and, **2** 

### then, become a long, slow deterioration, **3** 

### depending on the battery, out to the 500 to **4** 

### thousands of cycles that are typically **5** 

### recorded at the provision of partial **6** 

### discharge; they would be worse at zero **7** 

### discharge. **8** 

### But the test result will get **9** 

### progressively worse as the battery wears out. **10** 

### At some point a laboratory needs to know when **11** 

### to turn over their inventory of batteries. **12** 

### Secondly, when we go through that **13** 

### discharge cycle, we should allow, at least **14** 

### optionally, the longer period. I heard in the **15** 

### previous discussion that the five-hour was **16** 

### chosen to be convenient for the laboratory. **17** 

### It is not very convenient for a manufacturer **18** 

### who is now being penalized for the poor **19** 

### performance of the battery that he didn't **20** 

### build. **21** 

### So, alternatively, allow the **22** 

### discharge out to 20 hours, and I will show a

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### 1 graph that shows that, once you put your **2 discharge rate out that long, then differences 3 in how long you take, the difference between**  **4 20 hours and 24 hours is relatively minor in 5 terms of its impact on the tests. So, you take**  **6 away one of the variables again. 7 And so, the best practice in the**  **8 marine industry, a recommended battery bank 9 size is for house batteries to be able to**  **10 handle loads for 24 to 48 hours; for the 11 discharge, for about 85 percent SOC to 45**  **12 percent. This is for cruising vessels that 13 are dependent on their power for some period**  **14 before they go back into the marina. 15 That is only using 40 percent of**  **16 battery capacity. If we get over those hours, 17 the actual way we would use our larger battery**  **18 packs of discharge rates where we are C over 19 60, C over 100. Now most people don't buy**  **20 quite that big a battery, but C over 20 is 21 pretty short. It means that you have to start**  **22 up your engine and recharge that battery in the**

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### 1 

### morning. Most people want more than that. **2** 

### Next, please. **3** 

### Okay. So, low discharge rates are **4** 

### superior. They are more repeatable and **5** 

### generate more accurate results. And how much **6** 

### loss depends on an exponential function and, **7** 

### as a result, is difficult to predict. **8** 

### And I think the engineers in the **9** 

### room will be familiar with Puekert's equation. **10** 

### It describes the phenomena that the exponent **11** 

### is never published. You have your work to **12** 

### discover it. It varies from battery to **13** 

### battery, but it shows a dramatic decrease in **14** 

### power availability if you go to the five-hour **15** 

### discharge. It gives you a much lower Ebatt **16** 

### figure than you would actually get under the **17** 

### application. And that is going to be a whole **18** 

### lot less Ebatt than the battery manufacturer's **19** 

### label is going to suggest. **20** 

### Next. **21** 

### This somewhat crude-looking curve **22** 

### I captured from Home Power magazine, 1989,

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### 1 looking at data that is historic, but this is **2 for lead acid golf cart batteries. 3 Briefly on that, I direct your**  **4 attention down to the lower left corner which 5 shows discharge curves. And the higher rate**  **6 that you would discharge, the higher state of 7 charge residue you still have in the battery**  **8 which you reach the 10.5-volt threshold. So, 9 if you are stare across the 10.5, you can see**  **10 that it is acting at different states of 11 charge, which is, say, the point of making your**  **12 Ebatt affordable, because that shape of that 13 curve varies dramatically battery-to-battery**  **14 and over the battery's life when you are 15 pushing these high rates and the short**  **16 discharge times. 17 If we look in the upper right**  **18 corner, we are looking at the charging regime. 19 And it really shows that the fellow probably**  **20 burned up some batteries, being able to take 21 this data. But it shows the terrible energy**  **22 effects if you, then, control source battery**

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### 1 charger up there. **2 And most modern battery chargers 3 for lead acid are constant current up to about**  **4 the 80 percent charge level, and then, 5 constant voltage thereafter. So, they take**  **6 the trajectory that does not run into that 7 super-inefficient area.**  **8 The distance between these two 9 curves represents the voltage inefficiency of**  **10 the battery. It represents a loss the battery 11 itself contributes.**  **12 And you can see quite a span there. 13 We are seeing on the order of 2 volts between**  **14 the charge and discharge voltage out of 12. 15 So, right away, you are looking at a**  **16 12-to-15-percent loss of battery not in the 17 charger when you are considering the lead acid**  **18 battery. 19 Next, please.**  **20 Okay. So, here specifically I 21 wanted to look at the discharge efficiency**  **22 that we are doing here in the standard. And**

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### 1 there is a later flap or later article which **2 I sent to Jeremy out of this series. This 3 seems like kind of a faulty technical source,**  **4 but people will take in a lot of data that is 5 very, very useful and well-presented.**  **6 The average loss at capacity over 7 5, the five-hour discharge, is around 7.5**  **8 percent. The average loss at C over 20 for 9 this same class of battery is 1.8 percent.**  **10 The average loss with the partial discharges 11 at, say, 7 over 3 are using the upper half of**  **12 the SOC curve, the state-of-charge curve. 13 In our application the efficiency**  **14 of discharge gets to be more on the order of 15 1 percent loss, 99 percent, but that doesn't**  **16 agree whatsoever with the test methodology. 17 We will take you over to the next**  **18 slide, please. 19 What I did is extracted from a**  **20 similar set of graphs that you have been 21 looking at. Just look at the discharge**  **22 behavior, and what I have here is the**

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### 1 

### efficiency of the battery and discharge mode. **2** 

### This just graphically shows what I spoke **3** 

### about, a five-hour discharge with a 7.4 loss **4** 

### from zero percent state of charge up to 100. **5** 

### And while we are working C over 20 **6** 

### from 100, down in the lower right of that graph **7** 

### indicates our working zone. Our order of **8** 

### efficiency is more like 99 percent efficient **9** 

### for that battery. **10** 

### And if we perform the test at C over **11** 

### 20, you are going to show 1.3 percent loss or **12** 

### a partial. We will end up showing about, I **13** 

### think -- I didn't put the number up here from **14** 

### my spreadsheet -- but, roughly, 2 percent **15** 

### loss, which means that over-variation in that **16** 

### 2 percent won't greatly contribute to our **17** 

### uncertainty and our unpredictability of **18** 

### results. **19** 

### Next, please. **20** 

### Okay. Now the last part of **21** 

### it -- and this is well-observed in the **22** 

### industry, but I really need to go in the lab

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### 1 and create some data for you, or you can create **2 your own -- is to go ahead and charge a battery 3 through a total charging cycle. And when it**  **4 goes into its maintenance mode, just leave it 5 that way and check that current into the**  **6 battery itself every, oh, four to eight hours 7 for the next three days. And you will find in**  **8 some cases you will have a battery that is 9 continuing to charge, and the maintenance**  **10 current will fall until it reaches a steady 11 state.**  **12 And the way the math works for the 13 energy standard is you really care about that**  **14 maintenance mode power because a lot of these 15 chargers, like ours, are not allowed really to**  **16 be shut off, is where some of the gold is when 17 we go out trying to save energy. But we need**  **18 to know that we are measuring the right stuff. 19 And frankly, with the lead acid**  **20 batteries I have observed, we probably won't 21 be sure that we are in the maintenance mode**  **22 until we have let that charge not go for**

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### 1 

### 24-hour cycle, but maybe let it go out to 48. **2** 

### So, I need to do technical work to **3** 

### go ahead and come up with a recommendation on **4** 

### here. We know we have got a question. We **5** 

### don't know what the final answer is. **6** 

### So, next slide, please. **7** 

### Okay. So, yes, this is a summary **8** 

### of what I just said. Basically, the tentative **9** 

### solution is to extend out that period, observe **10** 

### that, see what we learn from it, and see if some **11** 

### of our great discrepancies on maintenance mode **12** 

### come from us trying to take the data. **13** 

### Next, please. **14** 

### Okay. So, generally, my **15** 

### recommendation, as an a la carte battery **16** 

### charger manufacturer, I would rather just test **17** 

### the charger. **18** 

### In terms of testing with the **19** 

### battery, generally, you could say, with the **20** 

### same instrumentation, the test sequence, **21** 

### allow a preconditioning at the tester or **22** 

### manufacturer's option; extend the discharge

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### 1 

### time target out to a 20-to-24-hour window **2** 

### option. Again, this is specific to lead acid, **3** 

### but we may find that it uncovers some more **4** 

### truth for us with some other batteries. And **5** 

### extend the duration of the charge cycle until **6** 

### the charging amperage is stable, which I am **7** 

### thinking is going to mean, especially if we **8** 

### have a large battery and a small charger to **9** 

### begin, is going to be quite a bit longer. We **10** 

### might be barely finishing your part of the **11** 

### charge cycle in 24 hours. **12** 

### Now I am suggesting that all of **13** 

### these points be made optional. If someone is **14** 

### able to select batteries and align batteries **15** 

### to their charger and recommend a window of **16** 

### batteries for that, and can work within the **17** 

### current standard, it certainly takes less time **18** 

### to do it that way. But the extended time is **19** 

### well worth it in terms of predictability, from **20** 

### the experience I have got in my lab. **21** 

### I think that is the last of it. **22** 

### Thank you.

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### 1 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Well, **2** 

### Wayne, thank you very much for that **3** 

### presentation and for preparing those slides. **4** 

### So, that was a lot of good information. **5** 

### Also, I would encourage you -- you **6** 

### probably know the drill -- the Department **7** 

### loves to see these kinds of comments in **8** 

### writing. **9** 

### Ashley reminds me that your **10** 

### PowerPoint slides will be inserted in the **11** 

### docket. **12** 

### MR. DOMMU: Great. So, thank you **13** 

### very much for that, Wayne. This is Jeremy **14** 

### Dommu again. **15** 

### So, you made a number of very **16** 

### specific recommendations for the way that the **17** 

### test procedure could be improved to speculate **18** 

### the specifications on preconditioning that **19** 

### occurs before testing, on extending the **20** 

### discharge time rate, extending iteration of **21** 

### the test charge cycle as well. And these **22** 

### recommendations, as I understand, are being

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### 1 made specifically for lead acid batteries. **2 I guess before we move on, I would 3 love to open up the floor to see if anyone**  **4 agrees or has comments on these 5 recommendations for lead acid batteries and,**  **6 also, if any of these recommendations may be 7 applicable to other battery chemistries as**  **8 well. 9 Is there any feedback?**  **10 MR. DENKENBERGER: This is Dave 11 Denkenberger.**  **12 So, I was trying to find it in the 13 test procedure, but there is some language in**  **14 the test procedure to ensure that the battery 15 has gone into maintenance mode, and there is**  **16 provision for going more than 24 hours, if that 17 is required.**  **18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 19 Thank you.**  **20 No additional comments? I was 21 thinking that those specific suggestions**  **22 might spur some additional thoughts about how**

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### 1 

### the current test procedure could be improved **2** 

### for other than lead acid batteries. **3** 

### There is this balancing act, **4** 

### right, between not burdening, overburdening **5** 

### the manufacturer or the tester and also **6** 

### providing a result that is sufficient, **7** 

### adequate, repeatable, reproducible, all of **8** 

### that. **9** 

### So, any additional thoughts on **10** 

### that? **11** 

### (No response.) **12** 

### Okay. Nothing additional. I **13** 

### guess we will move on. **14** 

### MR. DOMMU: All right. Great. **15** 

### So, we will move on to a number of topics that **16** 

### we also brought up in the Notice of Data **17** 

### Availability, where we are also seeking **18** 

### information and thoughts on how the test **19** 

### procedure is being applied to a number of new **20** 

### and different and various battery-charging **21** 

### technologies. So, I will go ahead and kind of **22** 

### cue-up these topics that were brought forward

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### 1 in the Notice of Data Availability, give a very **2 brief overview, and then, we could open up the 3 floor to get some feedback from everyone on how**  **4 the test procedure is being applied and 5 whether improvements need to be made to the**  **6 test procedure for testing specific types of 7 battery chargers.**  **8 So, the first issue is testing a 9 unit that has a battery used exclusively for**  **10 backup power. So, this would be a unit that 11 has a battery and a battery charger in it that**  **12 is only used in the event that main power is 13 lost.**  **14 So, if power is out, the battery 15 will kick in and we will maintain some or all**  **16 functionality of that end-use application 17 until such time as main power is retired.**  **18 Because of this usage, you would typically 19 expect that the battery is fully charged and**  **20 it is in maintenance mode at most times, and 21 it would only be in an active charging state**  **22 when that backup power had been used and main**

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### 1 

### power is restored to bring that battery up to **2** 

### charge again. **3** 

### So, we have tested/investigated **4** 

### units with these integral batteries that are **5** 

### used for backup power. With some of them, the **6** 

### primary function cannot be shut off during **7** 

### testing, and there are some provisions in the **8** 

### test procedure that state, if you can turn off **9** 

### primary functions that are not associated with **10** 

### the battery-charging functionality, that you **11** 

### should go ahead and do so, or at the very least, **12** 

### switch them into the lowest energy-consuming **13** 

### mode of operation before conducting the test. **14** 

### But if you cannot shut off any **15** 

### additional function, then you would proceed **16** 

### with the DOE test procedure. And because of **17** 

### that, the test procedure, it is possible and **18** 

### potentially likely that it will capture energy **19** 

### use from non-battery-charging functionality **20** 

### when conducting this test. **21** 

### So, in the unit that we have **22** 

### tested, you know, we have noticed with the

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### 1 

### lithium ion battery, that once the battery **2** 

### charger is fully charged, that there was no **3** 

### noted drop in power which would be typical of **4** 

### such a battery, which certainly leads to a **5** 

### potential belief that we are capturing energy **6** 

### that is not associated with the **7** 

### battery-charger functionality in the test **8** 

### procedure. **9** 

### So, we want to explore that area a **10** 

### little bit more, learn how the test procedure **11** 

### is being applied when testing applications **12** 

### with batteries that are solely used when main **13** 

### power is lost; i.e, backup batteries. **14** 

### And then, the other issue is, is **15** 

### the test procedure sufficiently detailed to **16** 

### ensure accurate, repeatable, representative, **17** 

### consistent results when testing applications **18** 

### that are equipped with backup batteries? And **19** 

### are any specific modifications necessary in **20** 

### order to accumulate testing of these types of **21** 

### battery chargers? **22** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Larry,

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### 1 please. **2 MR. ALBERT: Just a couple of 3 questions, Jeremy.**  **4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Larry, 5 will you get that a little closer to your face**  **6 (referring to the microphone)? 7 MR. ALBERT: Sorry.**  **8 Why is your question focused on 9 just integral battery chargers and, also,**  **10 focused on solely used when main power is lost? 11 So, for example, cordless applications where**  **12 there might be battery -- where the AC mains 13 may be powering other functions of the product**  **14 and charging the battery at the same time, and 15 you can't switch off the non-battery-charging**  **16 functions; that is not what you are trying to 17 address?**  **18 MR. DOMMU: No, I wouldn't 19 necessarily say that. I think we are using**  **20 this as an example of a case when there is an 21 integral battery and you are unable to shut off**  **22 any or all functionality.**

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### 1 

### I guess while I use the example of **2** 

### it is only being used when the main power is **3** 

### lost, I think the same line of **4** 

### questioning -- and we certainly would love to **5** 

### solicit comments on any suggestions you have **6** 

### for these types of battery chargers. So, by **7** 

### all means, please provide us with anything **8** 

### that may be useful. **9** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, you **10** 

### see both the issues boxes there. Comments **11** 

### here? **12** 

### (No response.) **13** 

### Nothing here? **14** 

### Is the test procedure sufficiently **15** 

### detailed to ensure accurate results when **16** 

### testing applications are equipped with backup **17** 

### batteries? Surely, we can answer that one. **18** 

### Alex? **19** 

### MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex **20** 

### Boesenberg from NEMA. **21** 

### I can't answer yes or no. I can **22** 

### say that we are preparing written comments on

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### 1 this. **2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 3 That's helpful. Thanks, Alex.**  **4 MR. BOESENBERG: Particularly to 5 the solely used when main power is lost versus,**  **6 as I stated before, most of our products are 7 integrated with other features.**  **8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 9 Thank you, Alex.**  **10 MR. BOESENBERG: Okay. 11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Any**  **12 additional comments on these two issues? 13 Ashley?**  **14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, Alex, as for 15 you, for both of you, actually, and anyone**  **16 else, if and when you do submit comments 17 indicating that this is or is not an issue, it**  **18 would be very helpful if you would also suggest 19 a potential methodology or changes to the**  **20 methodology that would be needed to 21 accommodate. Because, when DOE has done some**  **22 of its investigative testing around these**

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### 1 types of systems, and albeit, it is limited in **2 nature, but we were at the point where we would 3 need to modify circuitry and stuff like that**  **4 to isolate the battery-charging function 5 alone. And that is not necessarily -- you**  **6 know, that is one option. That is one option 7 that DOE could consider, but that is not**  **8 consistent necessarily with test procedures 9 that we have adopted for other products.**  **10 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex. 11 Absolutely, Ashley, I am trying to**  **12 do that. I have tried to do this in a 13 different industry, and it wasn't as easy as**  **14 it sounded, due to proprietary circuit designs 15 and everything else.**  **16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. 17 MR. BOESENBERG: But we**  **18 understand the concern and I am trying to find 19 a way that makes everybody happy on our end.**  **20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 21 Larry?**  **22 MR. ALBERT: I just want to point**

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### 1 out that in the development of some of these **2 test procedures, particularly in California, 3 and the regulations, this issue is hotly**  **4 debated, right, which was basically, when is 5 the product a battery charger and when is it**  **6 just something that charges batteries sort of 7 incidentally to whatever its main function is?**  **8 And should that, then, be also included under 9 regulations that cover battery chargers?**  **10 And a lot of the question revolved 11 around your issue, which is, how do you go into**  **12 a product and discriminate in terms of 13 circuitry and, then, also, physically, how do**  **14 you actually conduct the test, right, when the 15 interrelationship between the battery**  **16 charging and the other functionality is 17 intertwined, right.**  **18 And, you know, I think what 19 happened at the time is we offered a potential**  **20 solution. It was rejected, right? And we 21 can go back and offer that again, although with**  **22 respect to members' products, probably this is**

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### 1 

### only limited to things such as our radio **2** 

### chargers, as we call them, right? So, they **3** 

### are principally radios that also charge **4** 

### batteries, right? **5** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **6** 

### Thank you. **7** 

### Additional comments here? **8** 

### (No response.) **9** 

### Okay. **10** 

### MR. DOMMU: Okay. So, we will go **11** 

### ahead and move on to the next topic, which is **12** 

### the testing of wireless or inductive battery **13** 

### charges used in dry environments. **14** 

### So, we have certainly become aware **15** 

### over the past several years of new wireless **16** 

### charging platforms for dry environments, such **17** 

### as charging pads for SmartPhones or charging **18** 

### docks that allow the charging of batteries **19** 

### wirelessly through inductive **20** 

### battery-charging technology. **21** 

### When we initially developed the **22** 

### test procedure -- and as I explained in the

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### 1 beginning, I mean, this happened in 2006, and **2 it was updated in 2011 -- we did not 3 contemplate or consider how wireless battery**  **4 chargers would be tested according to the test 5 procedure. That is not to say one way or**  **6 another whether they can or cannot be tested 7 according to the procedure, just that we did**  **8 not consider them at the time. 9 And as also noted in many of the**  **10 opening comments this morning, in 2012, when 11 we originally proposed standards for battery**  **12 chargers, we deferred for further 13 consideration the promulgation and proposal**  **14 of standards for wireless battery chargers. 15 So, at this point we have a number**  **16 of questions on how we would go about testing 17 wireless battery chargers. Should we update**  **18 the test procedure? If so, how? What 19 technologies are out there that would have**  **20 wireless battery charging? We would love to 21 get a better understanding of them, so we could**  **22 make a better assessment on the suitability of**

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### 1 the test procedure for wireless battery **2 chargers. 3 And finally, interested in any**  **4 changes that could be made. You know, we 5 understand there's a lot of different ways**  **6 that these battery chargers could be 7 configured or used in multiple types of**  **8 end-use applications. So, we want to get a 9 sense of that, and we also want to explore the**  **10 current metrics and outputs from the test 11 procedure.**  **12 Are those metrics and outputs that 13 are currently recorded applicable? Do they**  **14 make sense for wireless battery chargers? 15 And are there any new metrics that we should**  **16 consider that would make more sense or be in 17 addition to what is currently in there,**  **18 specifically for this type of technology? 19 So, that is a very brief summary of**  **20 these three issues. I think maybe we could 21 handle them one-by-one, the first being the**  **22 issue of, can the current test procedure be**

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### 1 

### applied to wireless battery chargers to ensure **2** 

### the accurate, repeatable, consistent results? **3** 

### If not, are there recommendations for changes **4** 

### that could be made to ensure that the test **5** 

### procedure could test these products in a **6** 

### repeatable manner and produce accurate **7** 

### results? **8** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, **9** 

### please, John. **10** 

### MR. KUZIN: Sure. John Kuzin for **11** 

### the Alliance for Wireless Power. **12** 

### Basically, our view is it is not **13** 

### possible at this time to provide a detailed **14** 

### test procedure. Is it possible that the **15** 

### current test procedure could be used? **16** 

### Perhaps. But at this point we just don't know **17** 

### how the products are going to be deployed. **18** 

### As I touched on earlier, some of **19** 

### the technologies being looked at will quickly **20** 

### charge a device within a very short period of **21** 

### time by putting it into like, let's say, a **22** 

### pocket in the back of a chair; just drop the

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### 1 

### device in and it charges. **2** 

### Is a 24-hour test period **3** 

### appropriate? I don't know. **4** 

### The other thing is, with regard to **5** 

### wireless power, the specific technology that **6** 

### the Alliance for Wireless Power works on is a **7** 

### surface that is equipped with a charging coil **8** 

### where you could put all sorts of devices, **9** 

### disparate devices, disparate battery **10** 

### chemistries, within this area, and they will **11** 

### charge. They will charge at different rates. **12** 

### So, there is all of that. **13** 

### There is also the Alliance for **14** 

### Wireless Power uses a charging frequency of **15** 

### 6.78 megahertz. Other standards use much **16** 

### lower frequencies. So, basically, there's a **17** 

### lot of unknowns. I won't quote Donald **18** 

### Rumsfeld and say, "No unknowns and unknown **19** 

### knowns," and so forth. **20** 

### (Laughter.) **21** 

### But there is just so much that we **22** 

### do not know to be able to definitively provide

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### 1 

### feedback at this time and say this is the test **2** 

### procedure, because the products are still in **3** 

### the lab. **4** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Uh-hum. **5** 

### MR. KUZIN: And we will be **6** 

### providing comments on this in our written **7** 

### comments. **8** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **9** 

### Thank you. Thanks for the written comments, **10** 

### too. **11** 

### Larry? **12** 

### MR. ALBERT: Just a point of **13** 

### clarification here. So, what John is **14** 

### speaking about is essentially some kind of a **15** 

### standard that the Alliance for Wireless Power **16** 

### is creating or has created, right, where many **17** 

### manufacturers can create products to this **18** 

### standard, and there could be manufacturers **19** 

### creating battery-charging pads, right, also **20** 

### for this standard, very similar to what the **21** 

### Wireless Power Consortium also has a similar **22** 

### sort of setup, right?

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### 1 This is distinct in our opinion **2 from the situation such as a cordless 3 toothbrush, right, which has a base and a**  **4 toothbrush sold by the same manufacturer. 5 They are intended to go together. They**  **6 wirelessly charge, right? 7 So, when you say "wireless**  **8 charging," are you talking about what John and 9 what the WPC do? Or are we just talking about**  **10 an extension of toothbrushes? 11 MR. DOMMU: Yes, we are talking**  **12 about wireless inductive chargers designed 13 for dry environments. I think I could have**  **14 made that clearer, which I think is more in the 15 line of what John is talking about.**  **16 Wireless chargers for wet 17 environments, we actually had proposed, well,**  **18 such as electronic toothbrushes, we had 19 proposed standards for those in 2012, and, no,**  **20 we have not finalized those. 21 MR. ALBERT: I think the**  **22 distinction here is that in the standard such**

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### 1 as the Alliance for Wireless Power, right, **2 this is a case where you are going to have 3 chargers and products to be charged that come**  **4 from different manufacturers, right? 5 MR. DOMMU: Uh-hum.**  **6 MR. ALBERT: And so, there won't 7 necessarily be a clear indication of what the**  **8 suitability is of one to the other. Whereas, 9 if you have a toothbrush or anything else, even**  **10 if it was designed for a dry environment, but 11 it was proprietary, right, it would be very**  **12 clear as to what selection criteria you would 13 have to use.**  **14 MR. DOMMU: Sure. 15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Doug**  **16 Rawald? 17 MR. RAWALD: Right. And very**  **18 quickly, going back to what you brought up in 19 the beginning today, the difference between**  **20 universal versus proprietary, and that being 21 what you think is the actual distinction we**  **22 should be making her rather than wireless**

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### 1 

### versus non-wired, or that the important **2** 

### consideration at least is the proprietary **3** 

### versus the universal nature of the charger. **4** 

### So, if the charger is paired to a **5** 

### particular battery and sold with that battery, **6** 

### the test procedure may be more applicable than **7** 

### if that's a universal charger and you don't **8** 

### know what the battery is going to be used on **9** 

### that particular device. **10** 

### MR. ALBERT: That's right. I **11** 

### think that is an important distinction. **12** 

### MR. RAWALD: Right. And I think **13** 

### it would be very helpful if the folks from **14** 

### Qualcomm, if you could provide some **15** 

### information and response to Larry's point. **16** 

### That would help us kind of analyze the issue **17** 

### a little better. I think it would be helpful. **18** 

### MR. ALBERT: Because I think it **19** 

### does introduce this overall selection issue, **20** 

### right? **21** 

### MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum. **22** 

### MR. ALBERT: Which independent of

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### 1 

### all the other technological issues, right, it **2** 

### is sort of an overwhelming consideration. **3** 

### MR. RAWALD: Right. How do you **4** 

### select the battery for -- and this is Doug **5** 

### Rawald again -- how do you select the battery **6** 

### for your initial charger when it could be many **7** 

### different things? **8** 

### MR. ALBERT: That's correct. **9** 

### MR. RAWALD: Okay. **10** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good. **11** 

### Thank you. **12** 

### Alex Boesenberg? **13** 

### MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex **14** 

### Boesenberg from NEMA. **15** 

### Talking about battery selection, I **16** 

### am just curious because I don't know this **17** 

### section, but, Larry, you probably know. Is **18** 

### there an ANSI standard reference battery? I **19** 

### have reference lamps and reference ballasts, **20** 

### but what about batteries? **21** 

### MR. ALBERT: There's ANSI **22** 

### standards and IEC standards for battery

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### 1 performance requirements, but there's not **2 necessarily, as far as I know, at least for the 3 batteries we deal with, a standard battery.**  **4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 Thanks, Larry.**  **6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, Alex 7 just gave an example of how DoD deals with this**  **8 in other products. And it is not to say they 9 are one and the same, but if we were at some**  **10 time in the future, whether it be short-term 11 future or long-term future -- obviously, that**  **12 will be informed by the comments -- were to go 13 down a pathway of dealing with whether you call**  **14 them proprietary or just universal-type 15 charging systems where the end-use battery may**  **16 not be known to the person making the charging 17 system, we could explore that as an option in**  **18 terms of specifying either a nominal-type 19 battery or a reference battery, to assess the**  **20 performance of that charger in a 21 test-procedure-like setting.**  **22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Doug**

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### 1 

### Rawald? **2** 

### MR. RAWALD: Just one final point, **3** 

### I think, because this is really interesting to **4** 

### me. And now, you have really triggered a lot **5** 

### of thoughts here for me. **6** 

### It is that some of these unknowns **7** 

### with a proprietary charger, if it is wireless, **8** 

### are taken out because the battery selection **9** 

### becomes much clearer, right, when it is a **10** 

### proprietary system. And so, is there a way **11** 

### for you folks to kind of describe -- and I am **12** 

### talking once again to the Qualcomm folks -- if **13** 

### you could describe, what would be the concerns **14** 

### with a test procedure for things that are **15** 

### proprietary where you know what the battery **16** 

### selection would be prior to using this test **17** 

### procedure as currently drafted for that kind **18** 

### of wireless system? **19** 

### MR. KUZIN: I don't believe **20** 

### that -- **21** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: This is **22** 

### John speaking.

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### 1 MR. KUZIN: Yes. Rob, do you want **2 to touch on it? 3 I don't believe that our system is**  **4 designed to operate in that proprietary mode. 5 So that it would be, you know, there is a**  **6 standard that says, if you want to have a 7 product that is charged by the Alliance for**  **8 Wireless Power, there will be a process for 9 certifying products that comply with this**  **10 standard. 11 So, you're right, separate vendors**  **12 can sell a phone, and a furniture manufacturer 13 could sell a piece of equipment, a table, that**  **14 you would put in your house, and that would be 15 an Alliance for Wireless Power equipped table,**  **16 and they would work. 17 But your point as to, how would you**  **18 limit the amount of testing you would need to 19 do, because, in theory, if and when this takes**  **20 off, hopefully, you could have any and all 21 sorts of combinations of testing. So,**  **22 something to think about is -- and I don't**

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### 1 think we have thought much about it -- is, what **2 is the reference test that you are going to 3 want? Is it three phones? Is it two phones**  **4 and a hearing aid? But that is a good point. 5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Rob has a**  **6 comment. 7 MR. KUBIK: Yes, this is Robert**  **8 Kubik. 9 Just to expand on what John is**  **10 saying, our technology right now is not in the 11 market, but I fully expect this year you will**  **12 start seeing some products come out. 13 But the concept is you would have**  **14 one charging pad. You would be able to 15 charge, say, a Bluetooth device and a phone at**  **16 the same time on that same pad. That is what 17 I think you will see initially, but you will**  **18 see it expand to include multiple products, 19 multiple devices.**  **20 Maybe the recommendation here is 21 we need to have a closed discussion based on**  **22 our technology and our standard and how we**

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### 1 define the classes for the charging units and **2 the classes for the receiving units, to see if 3 there is a way to narrow down this test.**  **4 But, you know, we are still in the 5 process of maturing our standard, and we have**  **6 the hooks in there for handling the phones, for 7 example. But expanding it to include**  **8 higher-power devices, such as laptops, and 9 charging more devices at once is still in the**  **10 works. So, it is still very early for 11 development of a standard. But I think**  **12 working directly with the organization that is 13 responsible for developing the specification**  **14 is the right route here. 15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **16 Thank you. 17 Yes, Dave?**  **18 MR. DENKENBERGER: Yes, Dave 19 Denkenberger.**  **20 So, we have done some work, ECOVA, 21 through Natural Resources Canada, to**  **22 investigate this issue. We found that the**

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### 1 test procedure is set up to find, say, for **2 multi-port, multi-capacity batteries, to 3 search within the universe of batteries that**  **4 are compatible with that device and meet those 5 requirements.**  **6 So, it does take work, but we think 7 that the test procedure does provide guidance**  **8 for better selection. 9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **10 MR. DENKENBERGER: For the case of 11 a pad charger that was commercial available,**  **12 we do recognize that new technologies are on 13 the horizon.**  **14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 15 Ken Rider has a comment.**  **16 Ken, unmute your phone and speak. 17 MR. RIDER: Yes. Hi. This is**  **18 Ken. 19 I just wanted to make a couple of**  **20 comments about the way the Energy Commission 21 infers this. So, a lot of these products that**  **22 came up during the standards process were not**

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### 1 

### what we considered to be the battery chargers. **2** 

### We are talking about things that might charge **3** 

### like three phones. And really, what you are **4** 

### doing is you are adding battery chargers to **5** 

### that pad. The phone itself contains the **6** 

### charge circuitry and the control and how the **7** 

### battery is going to get charged. **8** 

### And so, a lot of these pads are more **9** 

### like external power supplies. Like a **10** 

### four-port USB charger, if you wanted to call **11** 

### that a charger, you would have a problem in **12** 

### selecting what products to connect to the USB **13** 

### charger, but that is because that is an **14** 

### external power supply. **15** 

### The test procedure already **16** 

### contains methodology for selecting the power **17** 

### source for charging. And so, I think the only **18** 

### time that these would get selected for testing **19** 

### with a battery charger is when you would have **20** 

### a like proprietary situation which, as the **21** 

### test procedure already applies to wet **22** 

### inductive charger systems, we already know

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### 1 that it works in proprietary systems like **2 toothbrushes. 3 And so, I would say that it is our**  **4 opinion, and it is also in the standards that 5 we had, that it would be appropriate for these**  **6 proprietary systems. And then, for 7 non-proprietary systems where they are more**  **8 like can charge anything, that those aren't 9 really battery chargers.**  **10 MR. KUZIN: And this is John 11 Kuzin.**  **12 And, Ken, are you saying that you 13 have addressed that by your definition of what**  **14 a battery charger system is, and the fact that 15 in the non-proprietary system, if you will,**  **16 which is not typically used, but in the 17 scenario where you would buy a pad and, then,**  **18 perhaps later get a battery pack that you could 19 charge on that pad, because those are**  **20 separately sold, the rules that California put 21 in place would not apply. Is that what you are**  **22 referring to?**

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### 1 MR. RIDER: Well, I would say that **2 the battery pack that you purchase later, that 3 is going to have the charge circuitry, and that**  **4 is what is going to get regulated. 5 And so, also, when you look at the**  **6 applicability of the test procedure, you are 7 going to follow the instructions provided**  **8 along with that unit to figure out how to power 9 it, how to get it charged, and do it**  **10 appropriately. 11 So, unless that product points**  **12 back to the pad, the pad would never really get 13 incorporated into the test procedure.**  **14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, Ken. 15 Thank you.**  **16 MR. DOMMU: All right. Was there 17 anything else on wireless chargers before we**  **18 move on? 19 (No response.)**  **20 It doesn't sound like it, but I 21 just want to give one more opportunity.**  **22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Larry?**

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### 1 MR. ALBERT: Just a follow-on to **2 Ken's comment, which is to think about this in 3 your proprietary business. Probably the**  **4 opportunity also exists with systems that are 5 USB-charged, right? Whereas, even lots of**  **6 time today, they are sold without -- 7 THE REPORTER: Sir, I don't think**  **8 your microphone is on. 9 MR. ALBERT: I'm sorry.**  **10 They are sold with not a separate 11 charger, but just a USB cable, if that, and the**  **12 consumer is expected to plug it into whatever 13 USB source there is, right, to charge it?**  **14 So, you know, that maybe is a more 15 general question. It has less to do with it**  **16 being wireless and more to do with being 17 something that is governed by a standard that**  **18 reflects the interaction between the thing to 19 be charged and the charging sources.**  **20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: 21 Additional comments on wireless battery**  **22 chargers?**

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### 1 (No response.) **2 Okay. 3 MR. DOMMU: All right. Thank you**  **4 all. 5 So, we will move on to the next**  **6 topic, and I believe this is the last topic 7 that we want to present here today, although**  **8 we will open it up at the conclusion for any 9 other issues at all that people want to bring**  **10 forward. 11 But the last one was specifically,**  **12 bringing it up, is on adaptive charging 13 systems. So, we become aware of what we are**  **14 referring to as adaptive charging systems. I 15 think they may also be referred to as quick**  **16 charging systems that charge batteries more 17 quickly when they are paired with a specific**  **18 power supply. 19 So, as we understand them -- and we**  **20 are still trying to learn a lot more about 21 these -- the system have battery chargers that**  **22 could communicate with the power supply. So,**

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### 1 

### the power supply delivers varying voltages and **2** 

### current conditions, depending on the state of **3** 

### the battery, how fully charged the battery is, **4** 

### and it also depends on which fixed general **5** 

### power supply is connected. **6** 

### So, as we understand it, if it is **7** 

### paired with that one specific external power **8** 

### supply, it may charge quickly and there's this **9** 

### communication that occurs to vary the voltage **10** 

### and current. If it is capable of being **11** 

### charged with an external power supply that is **12** 

### not capable of that communication, it may **13** 

### charge at a different rate. **14** 

### So, we are uncertain how the **15** 

### battery chargers in these systems would be **16** 

### identified or rated or advertised according to **17** 

### the applicable standards for voltage and **18** 

### current, due to the charge control systems **19** 

### that are part of the system. **20** 

### So, we want to learn how **21** 

### manufacturers are testing and rating these **22** 

### types of products. If there is more

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### 1 information about what this technology is and **2 how it is applied, and how the voltage and 3 current vary, we would love to hear more about**  **4 it in the context of battery chargers, as we 5 also do on the standard. There could be**  **6 issues with testing external power supplies 7 that have the communication, but, obviously,**  **8 for today we are really focused on the test for 9 the battery chargers.**  **10 So, the question that we have here 11 is, does the test procedure account for any of**  **12 the efficiency advantages or efficiency 13 disadvantages that occur when testing an**  **14 adaptive charging system? Are these types of 15 battery chargers sold with that specific power**  **16 supply that allows for the adaptive charging 17 system? Does the power supply need to be**  **18 bought separately? How are they packaged? 19 What happens when it is tested with one power**  **20 supply versus another? And does the 21 efficiency change when testing with a**  **22 different power supply?**

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### 1 

### And then, the other issue is, how **2** 

### should the test procedure be applied to **3** 

### battery charger systems with adaptive power **4** 

### supplies? Are there any changes that need to **5** 

### be made -- maybe and maybe not -- to ensure a **6** 

### repeatable, accurate test result? **7** 

### So, adaptive charging systems is **8** 

### what we are currently asking about and really **9** 

### interested in learning more about this **10** 

### technology and how it can or cannot be tested. **11** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: John? **12** 

### Oh, pardon me. Dave? **13** 

### MR. DENKENBERGER: Dave **14** 

### Denkenberger. **15** 

### The term "adaptive power" might **16** 

### have multiple meanings. I have seen it used **17** 

### in like an automotive application, that the **18** 

### charger will vary the voltage and the current. **19** 

### Could you clarify whether you are interested **20** 

### in that? **21** 

### MR. DOMMU: Yes, that is exactly **22** 

### it. So, I imagine when the battery is

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### 1 completely drained, that it would be at a **2 higher voltage and current. And then, as the 3 battery becomes more and more charged and**  **4 increases the capacity, it may change the 5 voltage and current condition which is**  **6 operating, which I suspect would allow it to 7 charge more quickly.**  **8 MR. DOMMU: Okay. My 9 understanding is that is more an established**  **10 technology. Could other people comment? 11 MR. ALBERT: Yes. Larry here.**  **12 So, I mean, what you just 13 described, which is the reduction in current**  **14 as the voltage goes up and the battery is being 15 charged is the characteristic performance of**  **16 sort of the classic battery charger for nickel 17 cadmium and lead acid, and so on, right, where**  **18 essentially a source impedance, using the 19 passive case, a source impedance then supplies**  **20 a higher current, right, during low states of 21 charge. And as the battery charges up, the**  **22 voltage differential across the source**

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### 1 

### impedance reduces and the current reduces. **2** 

### So, that is sort of the classic charging **3** 

### methodology, right? **4** 

### So, I was also unclear as to what **5** 

### specifically we are addressing here because **6** 

### this kind of adaptability occurs in even **7** 

### passive cases, right? **8** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It occurs **9** 

### in what kind of -- **10** 

### MR. ALBERT: Passive. **11** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Oh, **12** 

### passive? **13** 

### MR. ALBERT: Yes, and the **14** 

### implication in the question, at least the way **15** 

### I took it, was that there's active **16** 

### communication, handshaking, or some other **17** 

### kind of back-and-forth between the power **18** 

### supply and the charging circuitry when you put **19** 

### in a higher, I am assuming a higher-capacity **20** 

### power supply in, such as some laptops I think **21** 

### you can buy like a super-power-supply for **22** 

### them, and they will charge faster, or

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### 1 something like that. **2 If that is what you are talking 3 about, that is a little bit different than just**  **4 sort of the characteristic voltage/current 5 relationship that occurs in --**  **6 MR. DOMMU: Sure. Yes. I mean, 7 as it has been explained -- and again, we are**  **8 trying to learn more about this -- but it is 9 the focus is on that communication that**  **10 happens between the power supply and the 11 battery-charging system, that that**  **12 communication could result in charging 13 methods that are atypical of traditional**  **14 battery-charging systems. And learning more 15 about that interaction between the external**  **16 power supply and the battery charger is what 17 we are really focusing on here.**  **18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, 19 Larry, please.**  **20 MR. ALBERT: Could I ask for just 21 more clarification? Is this concern around**  **22 the communication that might exist between the**

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### 1 battery charger and the detachable battery or **2 between, let's say, an integral battery 3 product and its separate EPS, right? Where is**  **4 most of your focus in terms of your interest? 5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I see**  **6 Peter is queued to speak. Go for it. 7 MR. PROTOPAPPAS: This is Peter**  **8 Protopappas. 9 The focus is, for example, you**  **10 could buy a third-party charger and an EPS; 11 that's paired with the same mobile device.**  **12 That mobile device communicates with that 13 third-party charger. It is going to charge at**  **14 a different rate than the EPS that was sold 15 with the mobile device.**  **16 MR. ALBERT: Peter, Larry. 17 So, is this a case where the -- you**  **18 said "third party". So, this battery power 19 supply is not being sold by -- for example,**  **20 let's say that it is a Dell laptop and a Dell 21 charger, right? This is sold by somebody**  **22 else, right, other than --**

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### 1 

### MR. PROTOPAPPAS: Correct. **2** 

### MR. ALBERT: But it interacts **3** 

### using whatever that communication protocol is **4** 

### between the laptop and the power supply, **5** 

### right? **6** 

### MR. PROTOPAPPAS: Correct. **7** 

### MR. ALBERT: Okay. **8** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **9** 

### Dave? **10** 

### MR. DENKENBERGER: So, just to **11** 

### clarify here, if you had an automotive battery **12** 

### that could be charged by multiple chargers, is **13** 

### that the same issue? Because it could charge **14** 

### at a different rate, and there is usually some **15** 

### communication, the charger has to find out **16** 

### what type of battery it is charging? **17** 

### MR. DOMMU: I mean, it sounds like **18** 

### that is a similar issue to what we are asking **19** 

### about, and perhaps that has been addressed or **20** 

### how to test those types of chargers. But we **21** 

### are just asking really about that **22** 

### communication that may occur and how the

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### 1 battery charging would be affected when paired **2 with one type of EPS versus another. 3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Larry?**  **4 MR. ALBERT: So, in a way, maybe 5 this is -- you know, when Peter introduced the**  **6 issue about it being a third party, in a way 7 it kind of gets to the earlier question perhaps**  **8 about some of those issues that surrounded 9 wireless charging, which is there is some sort**  **10 of communication protocol that exists between 11 the power supply and the object being charged.**  **12 And so, the third party just sort of adopted 13 that?**  **14 MR. DOMMU: Sure. 15 MR. ALBERT: And so, I guess if you**  **16 are regulating that as an EPS, you wouldn't 17 capture it as a battery charger perhaps unless**  **18 they specifically mentioned this class of 19 laptops, or whatever, that it was supposed to**  **20 charge? I mean, it really has to do, again, 21 with sort of the selection issue. I don't**  **22 think it has anything to do with the testing**

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### 1 per se. That's my observation. **2 MR. DOMMU: Okay. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, can I**  **4 try to -- this is Ashley -- clarify something? 5 You know, I think one issue is how you make**  **6 pairings. And you will have to excuse me; I 7 am not an electrical engineer here.**  **8 But, as I understand one of the 9 issues, it is that we have seen some products**  **10 recently come on the market that, when 11 employed -- and let's take away the test**  **12 procedure for a minute -- but when employed in 13 the field, based on the conditions, use**  **14 different rates to charge the battery. In 15 other words, they are communicating with the**  **16 battery, and depending upon the specifics of 17 the state of the battery, it may charge faster;**  **18 it may charge slower. 19 And so, what we are really asking**  **20 is, you know, we understand that happens in the 21 field. And our test procedure is setting**  **22 specific conditions under test. And that**

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### 1 performance, whether it results in a higher **2 energy consumption or a lower energy 3 consumption, one could argue that**  **4 differential performance is not captured by 5 our test procedure because we set those**  **6 conditions. 7 And the question really is, should**  **8 it be? Should we be acknowledging that, when 9 employed in the field, those what I am going**  **10 to call adaptive control systems that actually 11 change the rate of charge coming from the**  **12 battery charger to the battery, based on 13 specific field conditions, should that be**  **14 reflected in our test procedure? Does that 15 make sense?**  **16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Larry? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: A little more?**  **18 MR. ALBERT: One more 19 clarification. These field conditions, do**  **20 they imply that there is some aging of the 21 battery or there is some balance of the battery**  **22 or other things that are happening where the**

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### 1 

### battery at that point in time is not **2** 

### representative of the way it would be in the **3** 

### as-received condition? **4** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: That is not my **5** 

### understanding at least. My understanding of **6** 

### the issue is that, when employed in the field **7** 

### as received, that, you know, either the **8** 

### battery is almost fully discharged or maybe it **9** 

### is just at 10 percent, or maybe it is hard to **10** 

### add a different rate between those two **11** 

### conditions. **12** 

### In other words, 10 percent **13** 

### discharge versus 90 percent discharge, does it **14** 

### charge at a different rate? And if it **15** 

### does -- I am simplifying this probably **16** 

### grossly -- but if it does, should our test **17** 

### procedure capture that difference in charging **18** 

### for a given battery charger and battery **19** 

### system? Does that make sense? **20** 

### It is acknowledging that battery **21** 

### chargers may charge devices differently **22** 

### depending on their state. And it is not meant

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### 1 to be aging, but it is the as-received **2 condition. 3 MR. ALBERT: Larry again.**  **4 So, in terms of battery charge 5 rates, they are almost always a function of**  **6 state of charge of the battery. At low states 7 of charge, you would expect to have in the sort**  **8 of classic case higher charge rates. As you 9 reach end of charge, frequently, battery**  **10 chargers, whether it is done passively or 11 actively, or whatever, reduce their charge**  **12 rates. 13 I don't believe that there is any**  **14 issue with this because the way the test 15 procedure is designed is it doesn't look at**  **16 charge rate; it looks at charge energy, right? 17 And it looks at recovered energy from the**  **18 battery, right? So, in a way, variations in 19 charge rate, it is essentially taken out of the**  **20 equation, right? So, there are going to be 21 multiple variations over the charge period,**  **22 and none of which really have an ultimate**

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### 1 bearing upon it because you are essentially **2 looking over a long span of time and measuring 3 energy and comparing it to energy. Yes.**  **4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Dave? 5 MR. DENKENBERGER: Yes, so I agree**  **6 with what Larry is saying, that there is going 7 to be variation, I think, in any**  **8 battery-charging system. But I think what 9 Jeremy was saying more is the communication**  **10 with the EPS and getting different results 11 with different EPSs.**  **12 And you mentioned, Ashley, that 13 the products were on the market. And I was**  **14 wondering if you could list specific model 15 numbers, so that we can all investigate more?**  **16 MS. ARMSTRONG: We do not do that. 17 Sorry.**  **18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jeremy, 19 can you confirm what Dave was saying about how**  **20 we interpreted your statement? 21 MR. DOMMU: Yes, I mean, I do think**  **22 there is an interaction between the EPS and the**

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### 1 

### battery-charging system in this case. But I **2** 

### think to Ashley's point, what we are really **3** 

### trying to focus on is the battery-charger **4** 

### system itself and the questions that we are **5** 

### asking of how and whether the test is **6** 

### appropriate to measure the energy consumed **7** 

### when charging a battery when it changes **8** 

### voltages and currents, depending on its charge **9** 

### condition. **10** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Dave? **11** 

### MR. DENKENBERGER: This is Dave **12** 

### Denkenberger. **13** 

### So, maybe another example is a **14** 

### laptop battery that is considered a smart **15** 

### battery. So, that has the charge control. **16** 

### And you could substitute a different EPS. **17** 

### That would, again, be conventional **18** 

### technology, right? So, it is not what you are **19** 

### interested in? **20** 

### MR. DOMMU: I mean, I think we **21** 

### certainly would welcome comments on all **22** 

### aspects of the battery charger test procedure.

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### 1 I think we are somewhat getting into a **2 territory of now talking a little bit more 3 about the way to test the external power**  **4 supply. So, we do want to focus this more on 5 the battery-charging system.**  **6 But, certainly, I mean, any 7 comment that you want to provide on the**  **8 battery-charging system and how the test would 9 be different, depending on the way it is paired**  **10 with an EPS, would certainly be encouraged. 11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN:**  **12 Additional comments on how the test would be 13 modified, how it would be changed, improved?**  **14 Larry? 15 MR. ALBERT: I guess, in general,**  **16 our position would be, based upon what we have 17 heard, that we don't see any compelling**  **18 reason, based upon the information provided, 19 for why you would need to modify the test**  **20 procedure to accommodate communication 21 between these different elements, right? I**  **22 think it is accommodated within the test**

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### 1 

### procedure. **2** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **3** 

### Thank you. **4** 

### You can see Issue Box 9 and 10. **5** 

### Please take a peek at it one more time, see if **6** 

### there are any additional comments here. **7** 

### (No response.) **8** 

### MR. DOMMU: Okay. So, that, **9** 

### essentially, concludes the areas that we are **10** 

### specifically opening it up for comment. We do **11** 

### have another couple of slides to just wrap up **12** 

### on how to submit comments, when the comment **13** 

### period ends, which is June 30th, and the next **14** 

### couple of slides will go through that final **15** 

### concluding information. **16** 

### But, before we get there, we do **17** 

### want to open it up to any other issues, any **18** 

### other questions, anything else that anybody **19** 

### here in person or via the webinar wants to **20** 

### bring up during this meeting. **21** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Dave. **22** 

### MR. DENKENBERGER: Dave

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### 1 

### Denkenberger. **2** 

### Getting back to the variability on **3** 

### charge testing, could you clarify how many **4** 

### units were tested? Because I believe the test **5** 

### procedure doesn't have guidance on that, but **6** 

### there is another part of federal regulations **7** 

### that would say how many units have to be **8** 

### tested, given the variability, and whether you **9** 

### did that? **10** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. This is **11** 

### Ashley. **12** 

### Currently, we don't have **13** 

### provisions for battery chargers. So, if that **14** 

### is something you have an opinion, especially **15** 

### toward variability or feel there is a need for **16** 

### them, we would welcome comments about the **17** 

### number of units that should be tested to get **18** 

### a representative value for a production sample **19** 

### of a given model, as well as what tolerances **20** 

### may or may not be appropriate. **21** 

### For the test data you are seeing **22** 

### here, this is just wall testing a single

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### 1 

### unit -- **2** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. **3** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: -- at least for **4** 

### the summary here. Yes. **5** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **6** 

### Yes, Jen? **7** 

### MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary. **8** 

### At the beginning of the meeting **9** 

### today, DOE mentioned that it is considering if **10** 

### and when to continue the battery-charger **11** 

### standards rulemaking. And I guess I was a **12** 

### little confused by that because EPCA requires **13** 

### DOE to either issue a standard or a **14** 

### determination that no standard is justified. **15** 

### And I think, as we are all well aware, the **16** 

### deadline for that determination has long since **17** 

### passed. **18** 

### So, I guess I am assuming that **19** 

### comment was in error, but I just want to **20** 

### confirm that. And if it is not in error, I **21** 

### would like to know a little bit more about how **22** 

### DOE would make that statement.

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### 1 MR. KIDO: I will just clarify **2 that -- this is Michael Kido, DOE -- we are 3 still examining what our next steps are going**  **4 to be with the standards for better charges. 5 And as part of this whole exercise, we need to,**  **6 I think as was indicated earlier, we need to 7 perhaps reexamine our analysis, and in doing**  **8 so, looking at some of the aspects related to 9 the test procedure that are going to feed into**  **10 that. 11 MS. CLEARY: But you do still plan**  **12 to make a determination as to whether or not 13 standards are warranted, correct?**  **14 MR. KIDO: We will act in 15 accordance with the statute.**  **16 MS. CLEARY: Okay. Except for 17 the deadline, which has already been missed?**  **18 MR. KIDO: Obviously. 19 MS. CLEARY: Okay.**  **20 (Laughter.) 21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.**  **22 Thank you, Jen.**

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### 1 Larry, please. **2 MR. ALBERT: So, to follow on to 3 Jen's question, can we perceive this NODA as**  **4 essentially the opening volley in reopening 5 the rulemaking with respect to the test**  **6 procedure? 7 MR. KIDO: All I am going to say at**  **8 this point is it is what it is. It is a Notice 9 of Data Availability. We had some questions**  **10 regarding the test procedure. And so, we are 11 going to try to learn a little bit more about**  **12 the test procedure before we go forward with 13 anything.**  **14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Of course, 15 the Department really appreciates your**  **16 detailed written comments. And as you look at 17 the content that was presented here, and**  **18 specifically the questions that are listed in 19 the comment boxes, to respond to those in great**  **20 detail, that would be good. They would 21 appreciate it.**  **22 Additional comments here as we**

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### 1 move toward closure? Closing remarks of any **2 sort, questions? 3 (No response.)**  **4 Then, the final slides. 5 MR. DOMMU: Okay. Great. So,**  **6 this slide provides the information that you 7 need to submit written comments. They are due**  **8 on June 30th, 2014. All this information on 9 this slide is also available in the Notice of**  **10 Data Availability. 11 When you send in comments, there's**  **12 a number of ways to do it: via email, via 13 hand-delivery, via postal, via**  **14 regulations.gov. 15 So, here is the information on how**  **16 to submit comments and what information should 17 be included on the comments that you do submit.**  **18 So, we do encourage all interested parties to 19 submit comments by the close of this comment**  **20 period on June 30th. 21 Here are some relevant URLs, so you**  **22 could find links to the Notice, the report with**

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### 1 the test data, an overview of the rulemaking, **2 and the product page, and the docket as well, 3 which has all correspondences associated with**  **4 this rulemaking. 5 And finally, here is contact**  **6 information for myself. If you have any 7 follow-up questions, please do feel free to**  **8 reach out; and, also, to Michael Kido in our 9 General Counsel Office.**  **10 So, thank you all again so much for 11 joining us today. I think it was a very**  **12 productive meeting, and we appreciate all your 13 participation and input that you were able to**  **14 provide. And we thank you in advance for all 15 the information that you will be submitting in**  **16 writing. 17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Safe**  **18 travels. 19 (Whereupon at 11:58 a.m., the**  **20 meeting was adjourned.) 21**  **22**202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

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This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 200

Battery Chargers Test Procedure

US DOE

06-03-14

Washington, DC