Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

1

 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 OFFICE OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE

 COMMERCIAL HVAC, WH, AND REFRIGERATION CERTIFICATION

 WORKING GROUP

 OPEN MEETING

 U.S. Department of Energy

 Forrestal Building, Suite 8E-089

 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.

 Washington, D.C. 20585

 Tuesday, August 27, 2013

 9:57 a.m.

Reported by: Christine Allen,

 Capital Reporting Company
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

2

1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 FACILITATOR

3 Neil Eisner, Navigant Consulting

4

5 PARTICIPANTS

6 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

7 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

8 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy

9 Timothy Ballo, EarthJustice

10 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy

11 Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning

12 Alex Boesenberg, NEMA

13 Rob Boteler, NEMA

14 David Calabrese, AHRI

15 John Cymbalsky, ASRAC Designated Federal Officer,

16 Supervisory Operations Research Analyst, U.S.

17 Department

18 of Energy

19 Mary Dane, Traulsen

20 Roger Daugherty, Baldor

21 Laura Degitsz, Navigant

22 Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd)

2 Brian Ferriol, Underwriters Laboratories LLC (UL)

3 Mark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products

4 Derek Greenauer, Global Government Affairs Management

5 Geoffrey Halley, ABMA

6 Randy Haseman, UL

7 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

8 Jill Hootman, Trane

9 Marshall Hunt, PG&E

10 John Hurst, Lennox International, Inc. (via telephone)

11 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay

12 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar, LLC

13 Paul Lin, Regal Beloit

14 John Malinowski, Baldor

15 Aris Maranton, Navigant

16 Mark Menzer, Intertek

17 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

18 Peter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development

19 Frank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc.

20 Kent Peterson, P2S Engineering, Inc.

21 Michael Rivest, U.S. Department of Energy (via

22 telephone)
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

4

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd)

2 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient

3 Economy

4 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation

5 Judd Smith, CSA Group

6 Frank Stanonik, AHRI

7 Louis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance

8 (NEEA)

9 Mike Stem, Intertek

10 Phillip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products, Inc.

11 Rusty Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing (via telephone)

12 Bill Tritsis, AHRI

13 Robert Whitwell, Carrier Corporation

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

5

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. EISNER: If everybody can give me your

3 attention? I think we've got everybody in the room

4 now. We can get started. Before we get into the

5 details of what you all worked out -- it looks like

6 everybody is here. Somebody did tell me they thought

7 there were some dead bodies, but it looks like you have

8 all made it here. I wanted to go back to one issue and

9 give Laura a chance to talk about some outreach efforts

10 they are going to make.

11 We have talked in the past, both as a group

12 and I've talked to individuals about the importance of

13 all issues coming to this table for discussion. We

14 have talked about you are not representing yourselves,

15 you are not representing your company. You are

16 representing similarly affected interests around this

17 table. And you have been making some good outreach

18 efforts to get those views around.

19 You know, for example, one person mentioned

20 to me that some of the people he was talking with

21 during the break were thinking of just holding their

22 issues back and raising them during the comment period.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

6

1 I believe that the proper place is this table. We want

2 to come up with the best possible resolution of the

3 whole set of issues that are involved. And if we have

4 to modify one thing we have agreed to to accommodate

5 another issue and the resolution there, it should be

6 done here, where we have everybody's thoughts

7 representing all of these interests.

8 It is very, very important that all of the

9 issues be done here and not in separate forums, other

10 bodies, whatever. And one of the things DOE wants to

11 do is a little outreach efforts that Laura can tell you

12 about.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So one thing we've heard from

14 several different people is that there is at least the

15 perception that there are a lot of people who are not

16 aware or plugged into what is going on in our meetings.

17 Obviously we have already been publishing the meeting

18 notices in the Federal Register. We have been sending

19 out blasts. But to the extent that there have been

20 concerns expressed about people not being aware about

21 what is going on, we are going to send out a blast

22 again to the complete list of all the people who are
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

7

1 signed up with DOE for information about any of these

2 product areas. And in it, we are going to lay out the

3 types of things that we are talking about, some of the

4 issues that have been present. We are also going to --

5 it will have a link to the docket for this rulemaking,

6 which has the original AEDM report that went to ASRAC.

7 And we're going to tell people that if you

8 have concerns or questions or comments, to contact us

9 at this table, that there are people in this working

10 group who are representing their interests. And if

11 they have concerns or if they have other ideas or other

12 views, now is the time to reach out. We are getting

13 ready to vote. And they need to find out what is going

14 on. They need to be calling the people at this table.

15 And they need to be finding out what is going on, and

16 they need to be getting their views heard.

17 So we are hoping to send that blast out

18 today. So your phones may be ringing. So make sure you

19 check your work voice messages and email accounts this

20 evening.

21 MR. EISNER: Frank?

22 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Laura,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

8

1 one of the things -- and, well, the question that has

2 come up a couple of times to me is okay. Every one of

3 these meetings is recorded or whatever. We have a

4 court reporter. Where are those transcripts available

5 because I have had people ask? Not that I want to read

6 them, but I have had people ask me where the

7 transcripts are available on the website.

8 MS. BARHYDT: So there is a docket for this

9 rulemaking. And they're in the docket. And this blast

10 will have the link to the docket, which will have the

11 transcripts in it. There is a lag time, but at this

12 point, most of the transcripts for most of the meetings

13 have come in.

14 MR. STANONIK: Okay. And, well, I guess I

15 hadn't looked at the docket, but I hadn't been able to

16 find any since the first meeting. So they're in the

17 docket but not on the SharePoint?

18 MS. BARHYDT: I think they're on SharePoint,

19 too.

20 MR. STANONIK: Okay. All right. I'll look

21 again.

22 MR. EISNER: Any other questions, comments,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

9

1 suggestions? Okay. Everything resolved in the

2 meetings this morning? Who wants to start off?

3 MR. SACHS: Do you have a three-sided coin?

4 MS. BARHYDT: I vote for CRE because you all

5 made so much progress yesterday.

6 MS. DANE: Well --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, dear.

8 MS. DANE: Oh, dear. That's it. Jeff has

9 something he wants --

10 MR. BAUMAN: Sure. We had good discussions,

11 and we also brought up some issues within ourselves in

12 kind of going back and looking at some things to

13 balance out the interests on both sides. I'll say what

14 we've -- you know, as we are moving forward trying to

15 step back also and look at things like should there be

16 a penalty phase for -- if we're setting basically a

17 minimum number of tests that would be required; if it's

18 a low number, to keep it as least burdensome as

19 possible should there be a penalty phase if you're not

20 meeting. And then we debate about the fact that does

21 that put additional burdens for people because, as a

22 result if it's an AEDM product, they already have
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

10

1 additional work that they have to do there or

2 potentially in ED-listed or those things.

3 So I think we're kind of leading to the fact

4 that, as a start, I'll say, we were looking at a

5 division between large manufacturers and small

6 manufacturers, again, hearing some of the concerns from

7 industry groups, as we have talked to them on the side,

8 more so than I think necessarily people in this room.

9 And rightly in a lot of cases, it's small manufacturers

10 trying to keep that burden as minimum as possible. And

11 we used a division of 750 more employees. I think

12 that's something that's used by DOE for large

13 manufacturers.

14 And what we have put on the table so far is

15 going back to the AEDMs. And we were discussing that

16 and the items we have agreed on. And we talked about

17 eight validation classes for CRE, being self-contained

18 open refrigerators, self-contained open freezers,

19 remote open refrigerators, remote open freezers, self20 contained closed refrigerators, self-contained close

21 freezers, remote closed refrigerators, and remote

22 closed freezers. So basically that would cover all of
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

11

1 the products, would fall into one of those eight

2 classes.

3 From that point, we were moving forward with

4 if you were a large manufacturer, if you have products

5 in four or fewer validation classes, DOE would select

6 two models annually. That would just be the number of

7 units.

8 If you have products in five or more

9 validation classes, it would be four models annually if

10 you are a large manufacturer. And I have this in

11 writing in email. And we just sent it out towards the

12 end, as I think Mary said, and trying to get all the

13 feedback here before we forward it on to folks at DOE

14 and the rest of the groups here.

15 So that's for large manufacturers, it would

16 be, again, just summarizing, two if you have four or

17 fewer validation products and four or fewer validation

18 classes, four models annually if you're in five or more

19 validation classes. And there is a logical separation

20 there as far as validation classes because if you build

21 all self- contained, you would fall in the one half.

22 And if you're remote or -- there's a logical break
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

12

1 there between four and five.

2 For small manufacturers with less than 7 or

3 15 employees, if you have products in 4 or fewer, you

4 would have 1 model annually. If you have five or more,

5 you would have two models annually. So if you're a

6 small manufacturer, you make a limited number of

7 models, you would only have to validate one unit

8 annually, which is - - I think we're in agreement that

9 that's as low as we would be comfortable going. And

10 that would be for four. And we don't think that that's

11 an undue burden to put on small manufacturers.

12 As I mentioned, we're also talking.

13 Following to that point is, should there be -- if a

14 manufacturer has a failure to -- and, again, even, as

15 we talked about yesterday, the devil is in the details.

16 You know, what is a failure is a failure. Outside of

17 your rated value is a failure, you know, for our case,

18 above the minimum standard or the minimum energy

19 consumption.

20 So we're again getting into that a little

21 bit, a discussion of the details should there be --

22 basically, we're putting out there -- and I don't know
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

13

1 that we're completely decided on this yet -- something

2 along the lines of there's one test within two years

3 that results in a failure to meet the federal standard,

4 in addition to the fact that that product would

5 potentially be under penalties because our

6 understanding is -- and, really, what we got to, again,

7 in part of the discussion is what the validation

8 program becomes is as manufacturers, we're doing some

9 spot checks. We're doing spot checking for DOE every

10 year because obviously whatever comes out of the

11 validation testing from whatever group, DOE if it's

12 reported back that it's a failure or if it's certified,

13 you have to take the actions that you have to take as a

14 result of that just like if you did the test yourself.

15 So there are going to be penalties that manufacturers

16 are going to have to deal with whether it was an AEDM,

17 whether it was, you know, just done by testing.

18 They're going to have to deal with that.

19 So our question to ourselves was, in addition

20 to that, will you be subject there? Do we want to

21 increase the burden of validation because now we have

22 set a relatively low, what we think are relatively low,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

14

1 numbers potentially. Should there be additional

2 validation testing required if you fail to meet, if one

3 test fails within two years. What we were moving

4 towards was basically doubling the burden for two years

5 if you met. We haven't solidified on those numbers, but

6 that is kind of the direction we're headed in.

7 MR. HON: Well, we also looked at a couple of

8 other things. As far as definition of a failure, we

9 would fall back under the same process we when through

10 with the AEDMs, which would be right to look at the

11 tests, right to look at secondary testing, the full

12 load there, before it would be considered an absolute

13 failure.

14 MS. BARHYDT: It sounds like you all made

15 some progress. You all are very measured, but, I mean,

16 it sounds like you all have put some real proposals on

17 the table to think about. And it sounds like you all

18 have gone back to other people to get some additional

19 feedback. So, I mean, it sounds very positive to me.

20 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. I think so. Just real

21 quick, yes, we made it. And the reason I think we are

22 standoffish about that a little bit is I think we're
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

15

1 feeling almost like we're taking maybe one and a half

2 steps forward, one step back. And so we're going back,

3 which is good. We're kind of going back and

4 questioning ourselves when we sit here.

5 And originally we said, hey, yeah. We should

6 have additional penalties. And then we said, well, you

7 know, what would the objections be to that? So, you

8 know, we're trying to be reserved and have. We're

9 moving forward on it.

10 So it's I think a slower process in some ways

11 than we thought it might be, but I think it's all good

12 stuff that we're discussing here in representing the

13 industry.

14 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. I guess maybe

15 we need some further direction from DOE with respect to

16 doing a verification program and what should be the

17 focus of the verification program. Should it be just

18 focusing on if we don't understand it? Should it be

19 focusing on everything that the manufacturers certify

20 to DOE? And I think that clarity is needed here.

21 MS. BARHYDT: I think it should be on

22 everything that is certified to DOE. The manufacturer
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

16

1 makes those statements under penalty of perjury. They

2 are making representations to the federal government

3 and to consumers about the efficiency of their

4 products. And I think that the verification testing

5 should be verifying all of those statements.

6 MR. EISNER: Others have some quick comments?

7 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I

8 guess I just need some further information from DOE on,

9 you know, what -- I mean, this is probably taking us

10 back to the first meeting, but I thought yesterday we

11 took several steps back. So everything that we have

12 come up with during these meetings is going to cause a

13 significant increase in cost to all the manufacturers

14 that are affected. So I am trying to understand what

15 the DOE objective is. We're making a lot of changes in

16 implementing a lot of new processes to solve what or to

17 address what at significant cost increases to

18 manufacturers.

19 So from our company, we have always agreed

20 that there needs to be some verification testing, which

21 is why we are a member of AHRI. And that's been, you

22 know, working well. And, you know, it gives me some
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

17

1 assurance that the people that I am competing with

2 against in the marketplace are playing by the same set

3 of rules. But we have changed a tremendous amount of

4 rules and regulations. And now we're going to have

5 this government website.

6 I'm just not sure what the objective is and

7 what is the issue we are trying to address except to

8 change everything for the sake of change or, you know,

9 when we get through this process, are we going to have

10 a much better assurance of the products in the

11 marketplace. I mean, I don't think it was bad before.

12 I don't think there's -- I haven't seen articles in the

13 New York Times or the Washington Post saying that, you

14 know, commercial water heater and boiler manufacturers

15 are costing consumers millions of dollars because

16 they're putting out illegal products. So if we need to

17 do some things, you know, I think we're willing to

18 address that, but these changes are going to cost these

19 companies millions and millions and millions of

20 dollars. And I'm not sure, you know, we have really

21 gained anything. And so I think DOE needs to better

22 define what it is they're looking for. And if it's just
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

18

1 to get a web so that, you know, people have a website

2 where they can, you know, troll data in a more

3 efficient manner, then I think that's what we need to

4 be working towards.

5 But, you know, I am very discouraged,

6 probably the most discouraged I've been since I've been

7 to all of these meetings, because I don't see any

8 progress in what we're doing. I don't see us making

9 any improvements in the process. I don't think that

10 anything that we're coming up with is an improvement

11 over what we're doing today. All I see is that it's

12 going to cost my company a lot more money to comply.

13 And I don't know for what purpose.

14 And so I guess that's what I'm looking for

15 for DOE. Sometimes I think maybe we're focusing on the

16 wrong objective. I mean, if it's to make sure that

17 people have additional information so they control

18 data, then let's focus on how we can get that

19 information and meet those needs. But to go through

20 all of these enormous changes, this is going to change

21 how my company does all of our certification and

22 testing and groups our products. And it's going to
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

19

1 change our bills of material and how we do all of that.

2 And, you know, what's the purpose? And I guess I just

3 don't understand that. And I'm very discouraged from

4 the whole beginning of this process. And I'm not sure

5 that the working group is -- you know, at this point,

6 I'm not seeing any success in the future on how we're

7 ever going to get to a place because I don't know that

8 we really even understand the question.

9 And so I'll say end of rant, but I think it

10 is a very important -- I am just very discouraged by

11 the whole thing. And I don't think that we're getting

12 anywhere.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So there was a lot

14 there.

15 MS. MEYERS: Thank you. I needed to unload.

16 MS. BARHYDT: DOE sees a great deal of value

17 in having manufacturers certify the compliance of their

18 products. What we have found in the residential market

19 and with other commercial products that are already

20 certifying is that the active certification increases

21 awareness within the industry. It raises issues with

22 test procedures. It addresses questions regarding
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

20

1 scope. Just the mere existence of a certification

2 requirement has improved the DOE regulations and

3 clarity within the marketplace. So, just as a

4 baseline, we see a great deal of value in

5 certification.

6 The other part of certification is that it is

7 a statement from a manufacturer to the federal

8 government about the efficiency of their product. And

9 our experience is that manufacturers take that

10 seriously in a way that they don't take just

11 representations of what they stick on their website

12 seriously. And so it lends a layer of certainty, a

13 level of certainty to the Department that when people

14 make these statements to us, they really mean them.

15 And there really is something behind them.

16 Having a certification requirement also gives

17 the Department a tool where manufacturers are not

18 making statements that are backed by test data. And it

19 gives us a hook with which to say, "Well, you said

20 this. Show us the data." And we can look at the data

21 and see whether or not the product is actually

22 compliant and whether or not they have done the testing
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

21

1 they were supposed to do to come up with that number.

2 And so, again, that provides the Department a greater

3 feeling of certainty that the representations being

4 made in the market are accurate. And the public then

5 can also feel like there is a greater level of

6 certainty about the representations that manufacturers

7 are making. So those are all reasons why certification

8 is important to us.

9 DOE initially proposed certification

10 requirements for these products in 2010 -- actually, it

11 may have been 2009 with an effective date of January 1,

12 2010. And we didn't get the OMB PRA. And so that rule

13 never went into effect.

14 We then did a rulemaking where it was going

15 to kick in July 7th, 2011 -- June 7th, somewhere around

16 there -- July 5th, -- thank you -- 2011. And what we

17 heard from you guys is that we're not in a position

18 where we can actually certify our products. There were

19 issues of we have not done testing that is required.

20 And so the Department has extended that deadline

21 several times. And from our perspective, it is time.

22 It is time for the manufacturers to have test data
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

22

1 underlying the representations that they are making

2 because you are all making representations about the

3 efficiency of your products. And we think that it is

4 past time for there to be data behind that. And so for

5 us, that is an essential goal of this, to come up with

6 a solution, so that all of you are in a market where

7 you know and we know that all of those representations

8 have test data behind them. And part of this has been

9 getting AEDMs for products like CRE, where there

10 historically has not been an opportunity for them to do

11 simulations to reduce their test burden. And so that

12 has been a key part of this process.

13 The other really big issue was basic model

14 and the realization that AHRI members did not define

15 basic model at all the way the Department did. And we

16 have gone through extensive discussions about what it

17 means to be a basic model and what things count and

18 which things don't count. You have raised issues for

19 us that are not covered by the test procedure that we

20 weren't aware of. And, again, this goes to the -- when

21 manufacturers have to certify, we find out things that

22 we can address. And that way we can make sure that,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

23

1 whether you're an AHRI member or a non-AHRI member,

2 everybody has the same understanding of what it is that

3 is supposed to be tested or not tested. And we have

4 said within the context of the negotiations that if we

5 come up with a resolution, there are certain ways that

6 we will deal with some of those issues. And some of

7 them are through enforcement guidance, that we will

8 agree not to test certain things.

9 But at the end of the day, the Department's

10 view is that all products, all models, all designs

11 should meet the standard. And I don't think that

12 coming out of this negotiation, we're going to be there

13 yet.

14 We are working with you. And I think that we

15 have given a whole lot. So I am very surprised to hear

16 from you that you are frustrated and that we have had

17 this massive impact on the way that you do business

18 when we have given and given and given on basic model

19 and said, "Okay. We won't test this. We won't test

20 this. We won't test this."

21 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I was

22 very encouraged by today's meeting in our breakout
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

24

1 session. I think the boilers and water heater group

2 made a good bit of progress. We took a little bit

3 different approach than we had taken before.

4 It was obvious we weren't going to reach

5 consensus. So we started documenting where our

6 differences were so that we can forward that

7 information to you and you are going to see there are

8 wide ranges of what our expectations and our hopes are

9 for this process. So I think this has been very

10 beneficial. And I am very encouraged by the progress

11 we made this morning. Yesterday was rough. Yesterday

12 was absolutely rough, but this morning we made a lot of

13 progress. And I am definitely not willing to give up

14 on this.

15 And I encourage all of us to take a more

16 positive, outgoing approach to this so that we can be a

17 part of this process because manufacture, it's going to

18 happen whether we want it to or not. Just realize it.

19 End of rant.

20 MS. MEYERS: So I guess my response, Laura,

21 is that the regulatory burden that the manufacturers

22 have in this room is exceedingly high. And we are
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

25

1 imposing more regulatory burdens. And I am not sure

2 that the outcome is more effective.

3 I agree that, you know, if the Department,

4 you know, feels that there needs to be test data behind

5 the statements -- I mean, that was what you said. I

6 don't object to that. But, I mean, the way we will

7 move forward with certifying and verifying products is

8 going to be vastly different. And I just want to make

9 sure that, you know, the regulatory burden that is

10 being imposed on manufacturers is actually going to

11 achieve a better marketplace. And that's where I don't

12 know that we are weighing what we are doing here.

13 I know, even in my decisions, you know, you

14 are in a negotiation. You agree to something. But at

15 the end of the day, are you getting a better system?

16 Are you going to have a marketplace that is going to

17 make sure that you have better products and compliance

18 out there being sold in the commerce? And, you know,

19 just because we want more data, is the data really

20 going to actually improve what we have today?

21 It makes it difficult when you are spending

22 well in excess -- you know, for Rheem, we publicly
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

26

1 stated that for 80 percent of our R&D dollars are to

2 meet federal regulations. This is only adding to that.

3 And, you know, the regulatory burden that these whole

4 actions are taking on these manufacturers, is it going

5 to improve what we have there at the cost? And I think

6 we need to take that, you know, take a step back and

7 say, what is it we're trying to address? I mean, I'm

8 all for, you know, continuous improvement. And if we

9 need to address test procedures to make sure, you know,

10 products are more accurately tested, you know, that is

11 one thing, but this is kind of a whole new way of doing

12 business moving forward. And at the end of the day,

13 I'm not sure that it's done anything but increased the

14 burden on manufacturers.

15 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I

16 just want to remark that we had a happy meeting with

17 HVAC commercial manufacturers.

18 So I am sorry you were at the -- but one of

19 the things that we are going to recommend, actually, is

20 that all the commercial manufacturers should be part of

21 a Department-approved program for verification so that

22 there actually wouldn't be the only additional
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

27

1 requirement of us from DOE would be enforcement or if

2 they want to do assessment training or assessment

3 training. So, at least on the commercial HVAC side, we

4 would not be promoting or proposing any additional test

5 burden. That should ease a little bit.

6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And, Karen, I

7 listened carefully to your very thoughtful remarks and

8 find that I think this is the first time that you have

9 been seeing the half empty and I have been seeing the

10 half full. I think it is worth revisiting, as Laura

11 started, a couple of things that really have happened.

12 And I take this from a very long, long perspective,

13 recognizing that there are transition issues that look

14 huge right now.

15 And the first thing is that I started this

16 with a feeling that much of this process was going to

17 be about, frankly, educating DOE about what was being

18 done across the spectrum of industries and what the

19 particular problems were. And I don't know how to say

20 this other than I have felt that I was in the room with

21 a different Ashley, that I have felt that DOE was being

22 much more receptive and flexible than I had ever seen.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

28

1 Now, it may have been going from a ten to an

2 eight, but I have felt a different attitude.

3 MS. MEYERS: I agree.

4 MR. SACHS: And that's been manifested in

5 some things that I think are pretty important. It was

6 a pretty tough pill for me and I suspect more so for

7 the Department to recognize that having products that

8 we know are likely to fail in commerce is something we

9 should look away from because otherwise we are going to

10 get really bad uncoated coils out in coastal

11 environments and things like that.

12 The Department has recognized that the cost

13 of reengineering or losing availability of specialty

14 products is much higher than the cost of allowing some

15 stuff that might be marginally below standards. And I

16 think that is a huge concession that we can't let

17 Congress know about. I think that the whole process of

18 thinking about the AEDMs is something I have regarded

19 as being an investment in enabling industry to do much

20 more work virtually with simulation, rather than with

21 physical tests. And I think that is an incredibly

22 important thing for the evolution of the industry for
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

29

1 lowering the cost of design and that ultimately, once

2 we get past this transition, like from water heater,

3 residential water heater EF, today to whatever it comes

4 out next year, I think this will release a great deal

5 of ability to try solutions and innovate.

6 So I think these are very substantial

7 attainments and almost justified by themselves the wear

8 and tear on my derriere of sitting here every day. So

9 this time, I am seeing a half-full cup. And I hope

10 that is a little cheering. It's not as though I have

11 gotten all of the things I wanted.

12 Thanks.

13 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I came here

14 for a distinct purpose. Our industry really doesn't

15 have a strong industry-active network which has its own

16 program setup. As such, we have to look at some of our

17 competitors on a routine basis. And, unfortunately,

18 the standards have been written for a period of time,

19 going back to California and EPACT 2005, continuing on.

20 And when we do testing of our competitors, whether it

21 be for ENERGY STAR levels or for DOE levels, we're

22 seeing at least 25 percent of the units that we test of
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

30

1 our competitors who are not meeting one of those

2 standards which they are publishing, too. That is not

3 good.

4 So when we came here, our objectives was to

5 close the holes. And the only way to close the holes

6 is to spend some money. And I don't like to spend the

7 corporate money. I would much rather have it flow

8 backwards. But if we don't close these holes up, we're

9 going to continue to have substandard product hitting

10 the market, diluting the market, and taking profits

11 away from those of us who do it the right way.

12 MS. MEYERS: Well, just to be clear, my

13 comments did not include commercial refrigeration

14 because we are not in that market.

15 MR. EISNER: Any other comments on this?

16 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Can you hear me

17 okay?

18 MR. EISNER: Yes.

19 MR. THARP: I would like to weigh in and

20 comment on some of the issues that were discussed, too.

21 I do want to reiterate what Harvey said in that I feel

22 the Department as well as everyone on the working group
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

31

1 has come into this working group following the charter

2 of negotiating in good faith. And I think overall I

3 appreciate what the Department has done as well as the

4 energy advocates, the utilities, and the various

5 manufacturer groups. I have even commented in internal

6 communications to the extent that I feel the Department

7 is really working to work with industry.

8 So I just want to reiterate that I think we

9 have made good progress and think we should continue

10 working diligently. And perhaps it may be meeting to

11 do things such as more of the breakout sessions or

12 breaking out requirements by product category more in

13 order to get to the final goal.

14 I would like to address the comment that

15 Harvey made about, you know, distributing product in

16 commerce that may not be compliant. I would like to

17 state that I believe industry position is that the base

18 model is what is being regulated, the basic model. And

19 we feel that all basic models, as we distribute, are in

20 compliance. And they are in compliance basically

21 because of the AHRI verification program. And, you

22 know, that is one of the reasons why we as HVAC
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

32

1 manufacturers -- as was stated yesterday in the

2 presentation, AHRI has been around a long time and has

3 been doing it, its own certification/verification. And

4 that seems to work very well for the HVAC industry.

5 And, again, I just want to reiterate that we

6 believe that the products that we are distributing in

7 commerce, the basic models, are in compliance with the

8 regulations.

9 MR. SACHS: Thanks, Rusty.

10 MR. THARP: End of rant.

11 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

12 It seems to me what the major sticking point seems to

13 be now -- everything else went fairly well with the

14 certification, some of the basic models. But it's

15 really a question of the verification. It seems like a

16 lot of the issues associated with the cost of

17 verification. And that is really the main sticking

18 point here.

19 So, I mean, essentially what it looks like

20 most of the time, we mirror somewhat the AHRI programs

21 on the other issues. To the extent that it mirrors it

22 on verification will be how well it is accepted by
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

33

1 industry and what the testing burden will be. So it

2 seems like a solution is kind of going along with

3 something very similar to what AHRI has as their

4 verification.

5 And I should say that is on the commercial

6 side of air conditioning equipment, but industries that

7 don't have a strong verification program don't seem to

8 be as put off by this, just like what Charlie was

9 saying here. So, I mean, I think it is more figuring

10 out a way that works for the Commercial Air Handlers

11 Association that is very involved in the AHRI programs,

12 really, that is the solution to the problem.

13 MR. EISNER: Other comments?

14 MS. BARHYDT: So, just to sort of recap where

15 we are in the overall negotiation, we sent our AEDM

16 package up to ASRAC. And ASRAC has sent that to DOE.

17 We have discussed and voted on basic model definitions

18 for the CRE water heaters, boilers. We have not done

19 HVAC, at least the unitary. We might have done the

20 SPVUs and PTACs and VRFs. And the only remaining issue

21 on the basic model for the HVAC is the motor issue.

22 And then the one last remaining issue that I
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

34

1 am aware of is the schedule for certification. So

2 there was a suggestion that we should discuss and vote

3 the schedule for certification, but I don't know if

4 HVAC is ready to do that before we vote on basic model

5 or not.

6 MR. THARP: Well, this is Rusty. I think the

7 commercial HVAC was at 18 months, which is the longest.

8 So if the group is willing to accept the 18 months for

9 commercial HVAC, I would submit that commercial HVAC is

10 ready to vote, of course, subject to everybody else's

11 thoughts.

12 MR. EISNER: Can we get the schedule up on

13 the screen? Is that what you're going to do?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

15 MR. THARP: And to satisfy Frank, are you

16 bringing it on the screen?

17 MS. BARHYDT: I'm trying. Where is it?

18 MR. EISNER: I thought there was agreement

19 that it was on your website.

20 MS. BARHYDT: It is, but I would have to log

21 in as myself. And I don't have all of the URL with me.

22 She has got it on the thumb drive.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

35

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry. Coming.

2 (Off record discussion.)

3 MS. BARHYDT: What's it called? That one?

4 MR. THARP: Certification dates. It's the

5 Excel file.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you.

7 I think there had also been some discussion

8 CRE might split up. Did anything come of that?

9 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I

10 think we were hoping to keep us all together under 15,

11 but if that was going to be a problem, the discussion

12 was supposed to go further. But I think keeping us at

13 15 is the best move.

14 MR. HON: There's disagreement on that topic.

15 MR. EISNER: All right. Any discussion on

16 this or do we want to go right to a vote? Anybody got

17 any thoughts? Phillip?

18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip, HTP. What were the

19 breakpoints between the small and large package

20 boilers? Can we have that documented on there so that

21 we'll remember it? Was that the two and a half?

22 MR. EISNER: What is this?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

36

1 MR. STEPHENS: 2.5 million.

2 MR. EISNER: Anybody recall a number being

3 assigned to that? I thought 2.5 was what we --

4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. The

5 number we had been using previously was 2.5 million

6 BTUs.

7 MR. EISNER: Right.

8 MR. MYERS: That is the natural breakpoint

9 that changes between thermal and combustion in the test

10 method.

11 MR. STEPHENS: So the first one is less than

12 or equal to?

13 MS. BARHYDT: Less than or equal.

14 MR. STEPHENS: Thank you.

15 MR. EISNER: Any other comments?

16 MS. BARHYDT: I think the --

17 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Just to

18 reiterate, the dates are based on the -- from the final

19 AEDM rule. Unless something changes in the other

20 discussion, then those months are go to after the final

21 CCE rule.

22 MR. EISNER: And that is reflected on the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

37

1 chart?

2 MR. THARP: Yes, sir.

3 MS. MEYERS: I think from my perspective, the

4 18 months on the HVAC is kind of predicated on what

5 happens with the motor discussion. So I can't agree to

6 18 months until I know what we're going to do with the

7 motors. So I could not vote on that. The rest of

8 those commercial water heaters, small package boilers,

9 and large package boilers I could agree to, but the

10 HVAC I can't. I would have to wait on.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Bob Whitwell from

12 Carrier. We have the same concern. I mean, furnaces

13 VRF were okay. It's the products where we have the

14 alternate motors that we have concerns about because we

15 just don't know where that is going to end up.

16 MR. EISNER: So if we put a footnote on there

17 saying "Pending decision on motors"?

18 MS. BARHYDT: I suggest we vote on everything

19 else except HVAC and just hold off on that vote.

20 MR. EISNER: Okay.

21 MR. SACHS: Laura, there's some -- be more

22 specific since there are some classes of HVAC like the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

38

1 ones listed, CRAC, SPVU, and water source, where we

2 have agreement. So it's basically the unitary packaged

3 equipment. Thanks.

4 MR. EISNER: We could have a footnote

5 defining what is not covered yet.

6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Karen,

7 could you repeat your concern? I couldn't quite hear

8 it.

9 MS. MEYERS: Yes. So for HVAC, the 18 months

10 will be predicated on what happens with the motor

11 discussion. And if we have to or if we can or cannot

12 classify high static and standard motors within the

13 same group, that could be a significant burden if that

14 doesn't turn out in a way that, you know, is favorable

15 to how we do it today. So having to totally come up

16 with new AEDMs and new groupings based upon the motor

17 type would be a huge undertaking for us.

18 MR. MYERS: Thank you.

19 MS. MEYERS: And I don't think we could do it

20 in 18 months.

21 MR. MYERS: Yes.

22 MS. MEYERS: I don't know what we're going to
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

39

1 decide on yet.

2 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. And I

3 think water source heat pumps and possibly CRAC may

4 share the same motor issues with packaged HVAC.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: They do on water source.

6 MR. SACHS: But we can include SPVUs since

7 they are hardly represented here?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Actually, I mean, Carrier has

9 SPVUs, but --

10 MR. WHITWELL: No.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: I thought -- we branded them

12 for a while. And so I have some experience. This is

13 Jill at Trane. They don't have oversized motor

14 combinations. They're very cabinet-limited, kind of

15 like PTACs are because they are a free-blow situation

16 in a lot of cases.

17 (Off record discussion.)

18 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I

19 think you need to add air-cooled to your HVAC, not just

20 water- cooled/evap-cooled. Right?

21 MR. SACHS: Mark, can you repeat that?

22 MR. FLY: I said I think you need to add air-
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

40

1 cooled as well as water-cooled and evap-cooled on HVAC

2 definition.

3 MR. EISNER: CRAC was the third one, I think.

4 MR. FLY: Or did I miss it?

5 MS. BARHYDT: It's there.

6 MR. WHITWELL: She just put it there.

7 MS. DEGITSZ: It's there.

8 MR. FLY: Oh, okay.

9 MR. EISNER: Didn't someone suggest CRAC, C10 R-A-C?

11 MS. DEGITSZ: We're checking to see if it's

12 in the notes.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So nobody raised that issue

14 when we were talking about CRACs.

15 MR. EISNER: Does anybody have a response to

16 that?

17 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. Can we

18 look at the PowerPoint presentation --

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

20 MR. AMRANE: -- where we agreed on those

21 basic model definitions?

22 MS. DEGITSZ: What are we looking for?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

41

1 MS. BARHYDT: CRAC. It will say "CRAC" up at

2 the top.

3 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

4 The CRAC units, they're not ducted typically. So the

5 high static pressure is not going to be a problem

6 except you're switching the motors out and that's why

7 it's not listed.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MR. AMRANE: Can you go to the SPVU?

10 MS. BARHYDT: It is on SPVU.

11 MR. AMRANE: Yes. It's here.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

13 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any concerns about these

14 three being temporarily not covered? I assume for

15 under 15 for CRE, we can take off the parenthetical

16 now.

17 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I believe

18 that there should be a division there. The self19 contained units were put in federal regulations.

20 Excuse me. They were passed by Congress in 2005 for

21 actual requirements in 2007. These were the same

22 numbers that were required by California and 17 other
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

42

1 states starting in 2001 and then some updates and

2 updates and updates until we got to the 2007 numbers.

3 And I do not see the need for 15 months for something

4 that should have been done which would equate to almost

5 9 years ago by the time this would have been in effect.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So what are you proposing?

7 MR. HON: I would say splitting the 2005

8 EPACT products, which would be self-contained solid

9 door, glass door, refrigerators and freezers, always at

10 a 6 to 9- month window.

11 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I

12 have to disagree. Six to nine would be -- what I am

13 concerned about is companies that are waiting to get

14 into labs. Charlie had before presented. The labs were

15 overbooked. There would be some problems with them

16 getting in. You know, a lot of companies, for whatever

17 reason, may not have started because they were waiting

18 for final verification for everything. But I still

19 think we need to take into consideration that that

20 might be too quick of a lead time. And so we don't

21 have a consensus.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So one thing that was pointed
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

43

1 out to me a day or two ago, the DOE test procedure

2 explicitly permits the use of tests that were done in

3 accordance with NSF test procedures at the integrated

4 average temperatures and ambient conditions used for

5 NSF testing in place of DOE-prescribed integrated

6 average temperatures and ambient conditions provided

7 that they result in a more stringent test, which from

8 the statements that you all have made -- no. I'm

9 seeing a head shake now.

10 MR. BAUMAN: For self-contained units -- and

11 Charlie can probably talk to this better than I -- you

12 are talking about the additional final rule that was

13 really, I guess, 2012 or 2011. That was more to ice

14 cream, I believe, freezers, the lower temperature, the

15 temperature setting. If you're doing an NSF, you could

16 do an NSF test, I guess, but the NSF test is 100

17 degrees. Nobody is going to do an energy test at 100

18 degrees when everybody else is rating at 75 degrees.

19 It doesn't help that NSF test would be the same as a

20 DOE test.

21 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. The test

22 procedure is identical, but the conditions are
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

44

1 drastically different. So they would be far more

2 stringent under the NSF process than the standard AHRI

3 1200 conditions, which are specified in the

4 regulations.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So, Mary, what I was hearing

6 from Charlie, though, was that, granted, before there

7 were no AEDMs, but now there will be AEDMs. And it

8 will be a dramatically reduced test burden. I think

9 all of those actually all fit within one AEDM category.

10 No?

11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. It is split into four

12 distinctive categories by the DOE; correct? I don't

13 see Ashley in the room, but they could possibly be

14 explained into one AEDM, though.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

16 MR. HON: It's physically possible.

17 MS. BARHYDT: For the AEDMs --

18 MR. HON: Yes.

19 MS. BARHYDT: -- we said that you could group

20 those.

21 MR. HON: Yes. You could --

22 MS. BARHYDT: That would be two tests in
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

45

1 order to have an AEDM that meets DOE requirements. And

2 they have been regulated since at least 2010.

3 MR. HON: 2007, 2-0-0-7.

4 MS. BARHYDT: '7. So manufacturers don't

5 have two tests done in accordance with the DOE test

6 procedure over the last five, six, seven years.

7 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. This is Jeff Bauman from

8 National. I will take that one. We are going to put

9 all of the cards on the table here. We had talked

10 about 15 months to keep it simple. I think within our

11 group, we had discussed if we wanted to split it again.

12 And if you kind of go back to -- my concern about this

13 all along has been confusion, more confusion, more.

14 You know, we're splitting this. You know, we are

15 splitting basic model groups. I just want to keep it

16 simple. That is why I have been on the board with 15

17 months for CRE. Maybe somebody has got advantage of a

18 few more months, a few less months, or whatever. To

19 me, it was good.

20 You know, if DOE is really interested in

21 making that a division there, as Charlie has expressed

22 his desire, again, if we go back to, instead of calling
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

46

1 it EPACT splits or whatever, you go back to the

2 validation classes that we have already discussed as

3 part of AEDMs and if you take out self-contained closed

4 models, which I think is for I guess two out of that,

5 self-contained closed refrigerators and freezers, and

6 what we have talked about in all of the discussions I

7 have heard is that if there is a split, it will be 12

8 and 18 months proposed. Yes, people have had -- and

9 we, Charlie, we have all got a lot of test data. We

10 were trying to send it to you guys and finding email

11 addresses to submit it to back then. Had we been kept

12 retesting and doing all of this stuff. Manufacturers

13 haven't been doing it. I mean, even manufacturers who

14 have done a lot of testing are still going to have

15 paperwork to do submittals, making sure they have got

16 everything in line. It's, I mean, maybe Charlie has

17 got a legion of people there ready to go, but I think

18 even Charlie is going to take more than a couple of

19 weeks to do this. And I don't think 12 months to get

20 all of your paperwork, I mean, as we're seeing to --

21 people don't even understand necessarily what AEDMs

22 are. I think they would be as happy as we were if they
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

47

1 understood as much as we were that the option for that

2 -- I think there is still going to be a lot of

3 confusion.

4 I think, as I have said also, my concern on

5 this is how much negative feedback we're going to see

6 when we present all of this after NOPR. I think if you

7 did anything six to nine months, you are going to hear

8 the top of the hill screaming from everybody.

9 I think, as we have discussed, if Charlie

10 really has that desire to split and DOE has that desire

11 to split it, I think self-contained closed models, 12

12 months, everything else 18 months is what we felt was a

13 reasonable split. And, you know, I think that is

14 absolutely reasonable. And I think there are a lot of

15 reasons that that makes sense as far as not going less

16 than that.

17 MR. HON: Well, I am sitting here looking at

18 it saying okay. We're talking about after publication

19 of the rules, which we hope is by the end of the year.

20 So if we look at nine months after that, we're talking

21 in excess of 12 months from today, probably 14 months

22 from today. And the test labs were booked through
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

48

1 January the last time we checked, which was just two

2 weeks ago. So if people could get their lab stuff in

3 to laboratories at a reasonable time window, February,

4 March, April, they would still have the better part of

5 six months to complete their project of paperwork.

6 MS. DANE: This is Mary. I have to put on my

7 NAFEM hat, not my Traulsen hat. And that is that there

8 are a lot of people that are not represented. I mean,

9 we're trying to reach them. We do the same thing like

10 you guys are doing blasts. We notify NAFEM. We go

11 through the steps and things like that. And,

12 unfortunately, there are just companies that are way

13 too small.

14 I know that Charlie has a very aggressive

15 timeline. And I don't believe we should drop anywhere

16 below 12 months in order to give the rest of these

17 people, you know, enough time to get into it.

18 We're not trying to penalize people. And I

19 know Charlie and I have a different philosophy over

20 that. And I respect his opinions, too, but I am just

21 saying from wearing more than one hat, I don't think we

22 can drop below 12 months.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

49

1 MR. EISNER: Any other comments on this

2 issue?

3 MS. BARHYDT: So is the preference the 12/18

4 or is the preference the 15? I thought I heard there

5 was some concern about simplification as well.

6 MS. DANE: I think that the 15 was meant to

7 be consistent. You know, some would have more

8 advantage than others, but 15 seemed to be under the

9 KISS method of keeping it as simple as possible.

10 MR. EISNER: Let me ask about the second

11 parenthetical under "HVAC," same one potentially

12 considered. Is that still necessary until we resolve

13 the motor issue or is that something that can be taken

14 off?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It does depend on how you

16 classify those motors.

17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other issues or are

18 we ready to vote? I would suggest right now based on

19 the issue on CRE that we vote on each individual line,

20 see where we are. The first one, the six --

21 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

22 You know, one of the things I would consider, Charlie
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

50

1 was talking earlier about how they have challenge

2 testing or simply a version of challenge testing or 25

3 percent of the equipment, the competitors' equipment

4 that he is testing, is not meeting requirements. And

5 so essentially by extending this period, it's that much

6 longer the stuff is out on the market that is not

7 really meeting requirements. And, you know, I think by

8 keeping maybe a more aggressive schedule on it, we can

9 actually encourage compliance sooner, rather than

10 later.

11 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I

12 don't want anybody to take this wrong, but I keep

13 hearing statements being used by "We notice" and "We've

14 seen" and "We think" and "There might be." Does

15 anybody have any numerical proof other than anecdotal

16 stories about how many people are sneaking around?

17 Because I just want to say that we're trying to be as

18 honest as possible here, and we're supposed to be not

19 penalizing the people doing this right.

20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

21 think, Louis, this has nothing to do with the

22 verification anyway. So I don't think it will change.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

51

1 If people are cheating today, they're going to cheat.

2 I mean, I don't think it's going to change anything

3 because, you know, a lot came of verification.

4 MR. STARR: Okay.

5 MR. AMRANE: I think the proposal that Jeff

6 has is a good proposal. I mean, if you want an

7 accelerated date, then that's really for the self8 contained because people, like you said, regulations

9 have been in place for a long time but then give 18

10 months for the rest of the product.

11 MR. HON: I will agree to no more than 12

12 months on the self-contained. That's all I can go to.

13 That to me is an extreme compromised position, which

14 would be basically the end of next year. I don't like

15 to see that because ours is not anecdotal stories. We

16 have hard test data. We spent a lot of money testing

17 competitive units, buying them on the open market, and

18 have turned in many of those same reports to the ENERGY

19 STAR group, which had been investigated. And there are

20 issues out there in the market. And that's what we're

21 concerned about.

22 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

52

1 Ashley, can you maybe speak to what Karim was saying

2 there, that his was kind of his summation of what he

3 said is that more or less is he on the right track

4 about that? Is that --

5 MS. BARHYDT: Which part?

6 MR. AMRANE: (Off-microphone.)

7 MR. STARR: The verification part. Change

8 itself is not going to affect that or --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. No. This is

10 certification only.

11 MR. BAUMAN: You can certify it however you

12 want to certify it. It won't make you more honest.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So I don't entirely agree with

14 that. I mean, what we have seen is that the -- I think

15 it is fair to say that the rates of compliance have

16 gone up as products have come under certification

17 requirements. Some of that has been just by the sheer

18 fact that they had never tested their products ever.

19 And when they tested them, they discovered that they

20 weren't compliant. So it has been our experience that

21 certification does increase compliance.

22 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with EarthJustice. I
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

53

1 had a question. We're talking about dates for

2 certification, but my assumption had been that any

3 verification requirements would run from the date of --

4 would begin on the date of certification. Is that

5 correct?

6 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know that that is what

7 I had assumed. I guess I was thinking more along the

8 lines of all verification would start at some time,

9 some point after certification, but I don't know

10 exactly what point or when that would be. But my

11 assumption had been that it would be at some point

12 after certification, not at the time of certification.

13 And some of that is just a logistics issue of as people

14 resolve the issues of how they want to participate in a

15 verification program, if we set up requirements for a

16 DOE-approved verification program, for us to actually

17 review those and make sure that we have rigorous

18 processes before we approve somebody. So some of that

19 is just a logistics issue of making sure we have enough

20 time before those kick in.

21 MR. EISNER: How do the other CRE folks feel

22 about the current breakdown on the chart, 12 and 18?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

54

1 Still object? Want it to be 15 or --

2 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. I can

3 live with 12 and 18.

4 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. We

5 could probably live with 12, but, like I said, you will

6 probably get comments from manufacturers that are

7 smaller than members sitting at this table. And it's

8 going to be a problem.

9 MS. BARHYDT: I'll just hope that it won't be

10 a problem; it will be an educational opportunity for us

11 to explain AEDMs.

12 MR. BAUMAN: I'm okay with it also.

13 MR. EISNER: Okay. Keep it simple. Does

14 anybody in the room or on the phone or whatever object

15 to anything that is up here now?

16 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley, ABMA. The only

17 thing I can see is with the large package boilers. I

18 think the 18 months has got to key off us getting a

19 workable test procedure. And right now we don't have

20 one.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So it's 18 months after DOE

22 issues a final rule. And if folks are turning in their
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

55

1 waiver applications, we're working on them.

2 MR. HALLEY: Okay.

3 MR. EISNER: Any other issues people want to

4 raise?

5 Let's vote on this chart as it appears. Does

6 anybody object?

7 Does anybody sustain?

8 Okay. The first vote I think we've taken in

9 about two weeks, three weeks.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Let's go for motors.

11 MR. EISNER: Yes. Anybody want to vote on

12 motors now?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill with Trane. So,

14 Laura, I have a question. The 12/31 date is out there.

15 Would this, then, be published between now and then to

16 show or what?

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. My expectation is that --

18 well, so don't let me get -- I shouldn't get ahead of

19 myself, but we have voted on all of these different

20 aspects except for the HVAC, water source heat pump,

21 and SPVU. So that package has been completed voted to

22 send to ASRAC. So hopefully, we'll get those last
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

56

1 three areas voted to send to ASRAC as well.

2 But ASRAC will get the package. Assuming

3 that they approve the package and send it on to DOE, my

4 expectation is that DOE will get a notice of proposed

5 rulemaking out in time for us to deal with the December

6 31st date.

7 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. And

8 that is great, but at the same time, I think it is very

9 important for DOE to send out a notice very quickly,

10 even before you submit this NOPR, informing

11 stakeholders that the date, the 31st December date,

12 will not hold because people are asking, you know,

13 "What should we be doing?" So waiting for the NOPR

14 might be a little bit too late.

15 MS. BARHYDT: I understand your concerns.

16 And I am not suggesting that they are not without basis

17 in history, but we are going to get this rule out fast.

18 MR. AMRANE: Karim. What do you mean by

19 "fast"?

20 MR. EISNER: Can we put some dates up on here

21 and vote on it?

22 MR. AMRANE: Are we talking before the end of
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

57

1 September? Are we talking October?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: I have a significant amount of

3 work to put units into the CCMS. Do I need to start

4 doing that? Because if I am assured that I am going to

5 miss the date and I'll not have my units in there --

6 MS. BARHYDT: So if we're talking about HVAC

7 --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: -- it has to start now.

9 MS. BARHYDT: -- we don't even have an

10 agreement for a package. So DOE is not going to be

11 extending a deadline. Until we have a consensus, until

12 there is a package, and until DOE gets a package from

13 ASRAC, there is no extension.

14 MS. MEYERS: Is that a rule or why?

15 MS. BARHYDT: DOE is committed to working

16 with you to come up with an alternative solution, but

17 absent some alternative, we have a rule.

18 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. And

19 here we are working with the assumption that we are

20 going to have a consensus.

21 MS. BARHYDT: I hope so, too.

22 MR. AMRANE: Right. So assuming we have a
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

58

1 consensus, I think what we are asking here is for DOE

2 to release a notice saying that the December 31st date

3 will not hold before you send out the NOPR. Again, if

4 you're telling me that the NOPR is going to come in two

5 weeks or three weeks, before the end of September,

6 maybe it's okay. But if we are talking about October7 November, it is going to be too late.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. It's too late. I mean, I

9 already probably can't even make the deadline with the

10 work that has to happen.

11 MS. BARHYDT: We are committed to getting the

12 rule out quickly.

13 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. Is there a

14 possibility to do the deadline extension portion of it

15 as a direct final?

16 MS. BARHYDT: I'll have to talk to Dan Cohen

17 about that.

18 MS. DANE: Could you define "direct final"?

19 MR. BALLO: Just it's essentially a final

20 rule that is also a proposed rule. So barring some

21 sort of adverse comment on the deadline extension, the

22 final rule is effective as of the date of --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

59

1 MR. EISNER: Is it the consensus of this

2 group that no one would object to it being issued as a

3 direct final rule, which means no one would expect any

4 adverse comment?

5 MR. STEPHENS: Just what we're seeing on the

6 screen?

7 MR. EISNER: No. It's to extend the

8 compliance date of 12/31/13 or to eliminate it,

9 whatever DOE is going to do. In order to use a direct

10 final rule, they have to make a judgment call that no

11 one is likely to submit an adverse comment. So talking

12 to your people, the people you are representing around

13 the table, is it unlikely that anyone would have an

14 adverse comment if DOE issued a direct final rule

15 changing the compliance date of December 31st?

16 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

17 It would be pretty hard to know everybody. There's

18 this whole California -- well, we would try to contact

19 them. That would mean there would just need to be one

20 person out of the United States.

21 MR. EISNER: That is part of the problem with

22 the direct final rule, but it's not that there will not
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

60

1 be an adverse comment. It is that it is unlikely that

2 there would be an adverse comment. If there is an

3 adverse comment, DOE would have to withdraw it and

4 start over. So that is something to think about in

5 terms of pushing for that.

6 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. There

7 is, it seems to me, another way to do this. Laura, you

8 have mentioned that the AEDM proposal -- is that what

9 we're talking about? We're talking about that final

10 rule.

11 MS. BARHYDT: No.

12 MR. STANONIK: Okay.

13 MS. BARHYDT: The certification final rule.

14 MR. STANONIK: Okay. The AEDM proposal has

15 made it to ASRAC and is in DOE's hands. And we all

16 hope it will be published soon. Okay? If it's

17 published soon, I guess I would ask, why wouldn't in

18 that notice DOE indicate that in view of this

19 publication of this AEDM proposal, the December 31st

20 date will change. And don't say what it will change to

21 but indicate that date is now off the table and new

22 dates will be developed.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

61

1 MS. BARHYDT: It all depends on timing. If

2 we get that AEDM rule out before ASRAC gives us the

3 package, then --

4 MR. STANONIK: All right. I guess maybe I am

5 confused.

6 MS. BARHYDT: You're assuming that the AEDM

7 rule is not going to come out for a while.

8 MR. STANONIK: No. I was assuming the AEDM

9 rule was going to come out before the certification

10 rule. That's why I was making the point.

11 MS. BARHYDT: No. What I am saying is if the

12 AEDM rule goes out before ASRAC votes out the

13 certification package --

14 MR. STANONIK: Yes.

15 MS. BARHYDT: -- and sends it to DOE. We

16 can't commit to --

17 MR. STANONIK: All right. Right. Okay.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

19 MR. STANONIK: All right.

20 MR. EISNER: Other comments?

21 Okay. What issue do we want to go to next?

22 MS. BARHYDT: It sounded like folks were
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

62

1 making progress in the breakouts. Do you all want to

2 break out again? I know there was also some suggestion

3 that they thought that the breakouts were more

4 productive than the large group sessions, but --

5 MR. SACHS: They sure weren't for me.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Harvey, you should go

7 participate in some of these.

8 MR. SACHS: I've been unanimously asked not

9 to.

10 (Off record discussion.)

11 MS. HOOTMAN: I would like to know what we

12 need to be doing because I think we felt we were done.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, so HVAC kind of

14 alluded to what you talked about, but I don't think we

15 all actually reported out on your final.

16 MR. EISNER: They said it was a happy

17 meeting.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So this is Jill from

19 Trane. What we said was that on the overwhelming

20 majority of the marketplace, 90 percent in dollars, 90

21 percent or greater, of commercial HVAC participates in

22 a VICP. Therefore, we felt that, you know, in
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

63

1 commercial HVAC, for verification, that it has to be a

2 DAVP verification program, whether it's ones that are

3 in existence now or in the future. And if they're in

4 the future, they should have the long list of

5 requirements, which we could give you.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Those are the same ones from

7 the slide yesterday?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I think the things that

9 we added to there were adding things like requiring

10 qualification testing before a manufacturer can be

11 listed as certified under the program. That was not in

12 the previous list. We also said that you started a 20

13 percent per year audit rate for your basic model

14 groups, but we would like to explore the possibilities

15 that once you had a proven successful history, you

16 know, that you kind of reward people that are good

17 performers. But we didn't really have, you know, a per

18 se when is that, is that after five years or what is

19 it, and that the program also needs to have penalty

20 provisions, both monetary and/or audit, increased

21 audit, rates for repeated failures. So those three

22 bullets were added to the requirements. And then we
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

64

1 did go into the additional definitions that we had

2 talked about before of the build- to-order and

3 inventory were pretty much the same.

4 And just on the engineered-to-order is it's

5 not advertised in a catalogue. It's designed for a

6 specific customer. And it has no claim deficiency

7 ratings. Engineered-to-order is excluded from the

8 verification programs. And that was actually in our

9 notes from before, too.

10 Anything else, guys?

11 MR. PETERSON: Kent Peterson. I think the

12 no- claim deficiency rating was added this morning.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

14 MR. WHITWELL: The other comment we had was

15 we talked about whether there should be a column in the

16 DOE directory that would specify what the verification

17 program is that that manufacturer's products are under.

18 And that might just be for commercial HVAC, doesn't

19 necessarily have to be for all products.

20 MR. EISNER: Did you have suggested language

21 to explain it?

22 MR. WHITWELL: No. We hadn't gotten to that
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

65

1 part yet.

2 MR. FERRIOL: Sorry, Jill. This is Brian

3 with UL. One more piece that we discussed I don't know

4 if there was a concluding vote on, but the idea of

5 something to the effect of verifying. You don't show

6 up on the DOE website until your products have been

7 verified, not self- certified. Is that correct?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I said require

9 qualification testing before the manufacturer had been

10 listed as certified under a program.

11 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel. Maybe we

12 should add the word "qualification" and verification --

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

14 MR. DOPPEL: -- just to make sure.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Do you all have something

16 written up that we can distribute?

17 MR. FERRIOL: Brian with UL. Laura, just

18 curious, was there anything that we just presented as

19 the commercial HVAC group that gives you as the

20 Department any extreme heartburn?

21 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure yet. I actually

22 want to read through it again and think about it.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

66

1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And there

2 obviously is a lot of attention that I will want to pay

3 to the details and to thinking about the long-term

4 ramifications. At this point, in part, because I have

5 been an observer of AHRI for a number of years, I do

6 have some concerns about some of the things I have

7 heard in terms of requirements for other verification

8 programs.

9 In particular, the trade association has a

10 very strong interest in every product that gets its

11 stamp of approval being pretty rigorously evaluated

12 before it hits the market. This is likely to be quite

13 a barrier that goes well beyond legal requirements for

14 smaller manufacturers trying new approaches. And I

15 don't think that is something that should be imposed on

16 the entire industry, even though it is an important

17 aspect of the differentiated program of the trade

18 association.

19 There is I think a fairly well-understood

20 history of situations in which the trade association's

21 approach to ratings has delayed and to some extent

22 impeded market penetration for alternative approaches
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

67

1 that would compete with mainline approaches. Again, I

2 think that this is easy to understand, and it is part

3 of the brand protection. But I am very uncomfortable

4 with requiring such specifications for all

5 manufacturers who wish to do commercial business in the

6 United States.

7 MALE SPEAKER: Harvey, I'm sorry.

8 MR. AMRANE: I'm sorry. I want to respond,

9 too, to Harvey. This is Karim with AHRI. I guess,

10 Harvey, I am not following you. I think if there is a

11 test procedure, if that product falls within the scope

12 of the certification program, then it can be tested as

13 part of the certification program. Our certification

14 programs are not just for AHRI members. They're for

15 anybody to join. So I think you're talking about the

16 innovative products for which maybe there is no test

17 procedure, but that is a different issue. That is a

18 DOE, you know --

19 MR. DOPPEL: It's a waiver.

20 MR. AMRANE: A waiver, a request or, you

21 know, changes to test procedure. I mean --

22 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry if I was a little vague
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

68

1 in my efforts to be terse. I am concerned about

2 barriers to entry. And let's assume for this case a

3 product that well meets a DOE specification. The

4 requirements for inclusion in the brand mark "AHRI5 certified" will be difficult for new firms.

6 And I believe that this will be seen as

7 something close to restraint of trade. Now, I am not a

8 lawyer. So I am using that term loosely. I am going

9 to do a lot more study of this issue, but at this

10 point, I think it is my obligation to share with the

11 group that there are aspects of the differentiated AHRI

12 certification program that appear to me to go well

13 beyond what the legal requirements are for introducing

14 a product into commerce.

15 MR. DOPPEL: Harvey, thanks for your position

16 on that. And that is something that we did look at and

17 discuss. And, see, we invited you this morning, too.

18 You know, we could have --

19 MR. SACHS: I'll come next time.

20 MR. DOPPEL: But one of the things that it

21 does not -- it says that we think that a manufacturer

22 should be part of a Department-approved. It doesn't
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

69

1 say AHRI specifically.

2 MR. SACHS: I understand, but as I understood

3 Bill's presentation yesterday and the commentary around

4 that, you would require of any alternative program that

5 it have equivalent rigor to the AHRI program.

6 MR. DOPPEL: Well, we listed the points, what

7 Jill --

8 MR. SACHS: And I'm not comfortable with that

9 requirement at this time.

10 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. If we do break out again,

11 you know, we would love for you to join us so we can go

12 over that to try to come up with what is -- you know,

13 understand more what you think is too rigorous. But,

14 again, you know, the intent of what we were trying to

15 do was to have DOE's responsibility not in doing the

16 verification testing per se but having the Department17 approved verification programs do the verification.

18 Then that would leave DOE for the commercial HVAC only

19 to have to do either assessment or penalty testing,

20 enforcement testing. So we are trying to reduce the

21 manufacturer burden, is what we were trying to do.

22 MR. SACHS: I very much appreciate that. And
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

70

1 I think it is a good idea, in part, because I may have

2 a somewhat higher opinion of DOE's budget and ability

3 than some people in the room, but it's not unqualified.

4 So I am very much sympathetic.

5 My issue is going to be with specifics of the

6 equivalence required and how one establishes such a

7 program.

8 MR. FERRIOL: Brian with UL. Sorry, Harvey.

9 Just a couple of points. This is just what kind of

10 came out of our working group, Harvey. First point is

11 an extreme maturity of the marketplace is currently

12 participating in the VICP or the existing AHRI

13 certification program. Those that are not, let's call

14 it ten percent for this discussion, are mostly falling

15 into a niche of engineered-to-order product, which

16 would be exempt under our proposal anyway. So, with

17 that said, closer to 100 percent of the market is

18 participating for the product that we're saying needs

19 to be verified.

20 The other point is I don't see the argument

21 that a start-up would have serious start-up costs based

22 on these programs because many start-ups join AHRI.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

71

1 And Karim or Bill or Frank or somebody else can speak

2 to that. Start-ups today join the AHRI certification

3 program. So those are my concluding comments.

4 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

5 understood Harvey's comments to be more of global in

6 nature that wouldn't be just for any specific group but

7 more the requirements and possibly limitations for any

8 -- what's the acronym we're using now? It's not VICP.

9 Is it ICP?

10 MS. BARHYDT: DAVP. DAVP, yes.

11 MR. STEPHENS: DAVP? And what does that

12 stand for?

13 MS. BARHYDT: DOE-approved verification

14 program.

15 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Okay. So Dave?

16 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. And

17 just between the comments going on on both sides, that

18 would also be a concern of CRE that this could somehow

19 seem like a good idea later on and the model be imposed

20 on everyone. And, you know, I just get hung up over

21 the certify-all rule to be a part. And so, you know, I

22 can understand it does seem like -- you know, what you
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

72

1 guys decide for your industry is fine and I'm

2 abstaining from that vote, but it just seems to me that

3 Harvey is right. You are limiting the number of people

4 who can come into the market that can afford to certify

5 all of their products.

6 MR. STANONIK: Frank --

7 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. The

8 certify-all rule will apply in the case of DOE. All

9 your product regulated will have to be certified --

10 MR. STANONIK: Right.

11 MR. AMRANE: -- and will have to go through

12 the verification that DOE is talking about.

13 MR. STANONIK: Right.

14 MR. AMRANE: So this is not different from

15 AHRI.

16 MS. DANE: I understand it all has to be

17 certified, but are you -- you know, then you fall into

18 the numbers of products that you want to directly test

19 and certify unless I've misunderstood, you know. So I

20 just want to make sure that your model doesn't get

21 imposed on CRE because we don't operate that way and --

22 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

73

1 The certify-all only applies to specific, the specific,

2 programs that are within AHRI.

3 MS. DANE: But they have a CRE program that

4 99 percent of the market doesn't participate in. So

5 can I be assured that just because they have a program,

6 that those rules that they are proposing won't be

7 extended to my program, that they have but I choose not

8 to be a part of a voluntary program that they offer? I

9 don't want a voluntary program to become a mandatory

10 program.

11 MR. AMRANE: But DOE is talking about the

12 mandatory program already. This is what we're talking

13 about.

14 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. Phillip Stephens. It's

15 a very important distinction when we're talking about

16 certify all. It's very different for us to participate

17 in a voluntary program that you don't have to be in at

18 all that has a certify-all requirement for all your

19 products. But if we're in a certify-all regulation

20 situation where everything has to go through a DAVP.

21 Then none of the DAVPs can have a certify-all rule

22 inside of those. Otherwise it's not a good situation
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

74

1 for any manufacturer. I would definitely not support

2 that.

3 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I am confused

4 with your statement. I mean, are you saying to DOE

5 that you are going to be only verifying a part of your

6 product that is regulated?

7 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm reading between the

8 lines a little bit here, but I think what Phillip is

9 saying is that he may want to put some of his products

10 in AHRI and h e may want to put some of his products in

11 somebody else's program. But if you require --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Be a part of DAVP. And that

13 doesn't say that --

14 MS. BARHYDT: But AHRI's program currently

15 says that if you put some of your products in AHRI's

16 program, you have to put all of your products in AHRI's

17 program.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Under that scope.

19 MR. STEPHENS: Under that, yes.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: And that scope within that

21 section. So I could take one section of my stuff. And

22 I have more than one section falling under this. So I
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

75

1 could have one section in AHRI and another section in -

2 -

3 MS. BARHYDT: What's a section, just to make

4 sure I understand?

5 MR. STANONIK: Product group.

6 MR. AMRANE: Product category.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: The product category. And it

8 does not necessarily follow the DOE's definition of it.

9 MR. AMRANE: I think you're right. This is

10 Karim with AHRI. Yes, it is true that, for example, if

11 you have a package boiler that falls within the scope

12 of AHRI, you will have to certify all of your package

13 boiler in that -- I agree. We don't have that. That

14 is what the rule applies to. So sorry. If that's what

15 you meant, yes, indeed, that is the case.

16 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. And that's what I am

17 saying. The Department says all of your products must

18 be certified, regardless of what product class they're

19 in. So no DAVP should be allowed to require all of your

20 products in whichever product class to be certified

21 under their specific product.

22 MR. SACHS: Phillip, this is Harvey. And I'd
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

76

1 like to disagree on -- no. I regretfully disagree on

2 one little thing. If a particular DAVP wants to make

3 that requirement that if you're making package boilers

4 that fit in their scope, all of them have to be

5 certified. That is DAVP's prerogative. Where I draw

6 the line is that I am very uncomfortable with requiring

7 that and some other requirements of all DAVPs. I am

8 uncomfortable with a universal template, which is the

9 AHRI template, without having justifications that match

10 the needs of certification verification and help the

11 industry move forward.

12 I recognize and appreciate Brian's comment

13 that right not this is -- my interpretation, it is to

14 some extent theoretical because the incumbent does have

15 huge market share. But I am just uncomfortable with it

16 looking like the federal government is enforcing that.

17 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. You

18 actually went two different places in the discussion.

19 But, to Harvey's first point, if you take a broad view,

20 federal minimum efficiency standards are a market

21 impediment. Okay? They establish a requirement, a

22 federal requirement, that if you can't meet this
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

77

1 requirement, you can't sell in the United States.

2 Okay? So that is there.

3 And as far as the issue of whether our

4 program or any other program would impede a company

5 from entering the market, the federal law says no, it

6 won't because the federal law says, whoever this

7 company is, they are responsible for the initial

8 rating. And their obligation to DOE is only that they

9 have to do the appropriate test, whatever, that their

10 rating is accurate per the DOE's test procedure. If

11 they need a waiver, they'd better get the waiver first

12 before they introduce into commerce; right?

13 So outside of meeting the federal

14 requirement, there is no barrier to any company to

15 enter the U.S. market for any product that is regulated

16 by federal standards. The issue that AHRI or some

17 other program may say, "Okay. But if you want us to

18 put our name or allow you to put our name and stand

19 behind your rating that we're going to do some

20 prequalification tests," if you've been around for a

21 while and if you've ever tried to do DOE tests and, in

22 fact, if you've tried to comply with some DOE
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

78

1 regulations, it is a very sound and logical

2 requirement. I would say for any outside entity that,

3 let's say, not been involved in North American

4 standards, if they were to enter a new product without

5 prior experience, that, in fact, the likelihood if they

6 ran the DOE tests themselves, whatever test procedure

7 it was, the likelihood that if they ran it themselves,

8 they ran it correctly, it is my opinion I would say it

9 is no better than 50/50.

10 And so I think that just because -- well, a

11 lot of reasons, but I think it makes sense that if you

12 have a new -- again, a totally new entity coming into

13 the market and they are now stating they comply with

14 federal requirements or usually in the case you're

15 stating, Harvey, that, in fact, they have an innovative

16 product, they are probably coming into the product

17 because they are going to claim they have a superior

18 product. You know, they didn't come into the market

19 because I got the plain vanilla that everybody else

20 has. You know, I've got the chocolate sundae with the

21 cherry on top of it. And so in that case, it's even

22 more important that you're sure that they ran the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

79

1 procedures properly.

2 And so I think it is a very reasonable

3 requirement for any program that if they have a true

4 new entrant, there should be some concern, some

5 validation for the program that they, in fact, know how

6 to -- if they had their tests run at, you know, an

7 established lab that has a record of running the tests,

8 then they're fine; right? We know somebody ran the

9 tests right. But if they didn't do that, you don't

10 know anything.

11 But that is really the second stage. I mean,

12 they can enter the market. They can introduce their

13 products. All they have to do is meet DOE's

14 requirements. But when you get into the verification,

15 then, again, if they're going to be included in a

16 program, it makes sense that the organization that is

17 putting their stamp that says, you know, "We're

18 standing behind these ratings" has some assurance that,

19 in fact, the tests have been done properly.

20 The other point that we kind of got around is

21 that, again, I think it was at the last meeting or

22 maybe the one before it, DOE made it very clear their
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

80

1 desire would be that every manufacturer has some kind

2 of verification testing going on. That is certify all.

3 I mean, it's verify all. Sorry. They already certify

4 all. So whether or not a program requires it, as Harvey

5 said, that may be the business of the program, but the

6 manufacturer still is in the dilemma that DOE's

7 expectation is that they're going to have some scheme

8 that will check, verify the test, the ratings of all of

9 their products they have certified. That doesn't go

10 away.

11 Again, if you are running a program, why

12 wouldn't you offer that full-service to anyone?

13 MR. SACHS: Thanks, Frank. I think precedent

14 requires me only to comment that the theology of market

15 impediment is perhaps balanced by the confidence the

16 market has that everything meets some efficiency level.

17 And so I just want to note that we have a theological

18 difference here.

19 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP.

20 MR. SACHS: On the rest --

21 MR. STEPHENS: Oh, sorry.

22 MR. SACHS: -- I think we're getting into the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

81

1 details of the expectations for a differentiated

2 voluntary program versus the needs of what you all have

3 proposed as a Department-authorized mandatory program.

4 And my initial comments were to call out that I am very

5 sensitive to the potential of there being differences

6 between what AHRI offers and what meets the

7 Department's needs and, for that matter, the basic

8 needs of the market. End of rant.

9 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I'm

10 going to toss a couple of tennis balls in a couple of

11 different courts. So a comment to Harvey and then to

12 Jill. My only real concern is when manufacturers are

13 required to use a DAVP of some sort and there is one

14 product that you have that only one DAVP has the

15 ability to perform the testing. Then you have to go to

16 that DAVP. If that DAVP has a certify-all rule, you're

17 stuck with them. Then what does that do to other

18 innovations that that DAVP may not care to create the

19 area of expertise? So that's my first comment.

20 My second point is Jill made a very important

21 point that I think went by a lot of people. All the

22 DAVP's going forward will have to have their same
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

82

1 product class definition meet the Department of

2 Energy's because if they don't, then it's going to

3 really corner a lot of manufacturers.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I don't necessarily agree

5 with that, Phil. For instance, you know, over

6 commercial HVAC, you have, as defined by AHRI, unitary

7 small, unitary large, water source heat pumps, CRAC.

8 Those are all different sections. I have my choice to

9 be a member of those sections or to go to another DAVP

10 or to create my own DAVP by those rules that we have up

11 there and executed by ETL or UL or whoever we want to

12 have it executed by. So I have choices. I don't have

13 to necessarily put all of those products in one

14 section, in one DAVP.

15 MR. AMRANE: Let me follow up.

16 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman.

17 MR. AMRANE: Okay.

18 MR. BAUMAN: I just want to real quick,

19 Karim. I don't want to get in the middle of this. I

20 just wanted to -- I think Jill brought up a good point

21 for clarification. When we talk about a DAVP, a

22 manufacturer can have their own DAVP. They don't have
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

83

1 to go to an AHRI or UL based on what the standards are.

2 If you're a minimum standard, you have to do, you know,

3 testing in a lab or whatever. The manufacturer can

4 submit using the basic rules their own program to DOE

5 and get approved for that and then do their own program

6 on whatever. Is that correct, Laura?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Obviously, we haven't ironed

8 out details, but that was the concept that DOE put

9 forward.

10 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

11 wanted to follow up with Phil and the logic. You used

12 the example that, you know, if you had a product but

13 only one DAVP was capable of testing that product, that

14 you will have to join the DAVP and that the DAVP has

15 all certification rule. Then, of course, if there is

16 only one available, then you have no choice. You will

17 have to go through that DAVP anyway. So I am not sure

18 what is the concern here, I mean, if that is the only

19 DAVP available. Otherwise pick another DAVP if it

20 exists.

21 MR. STEPHENS: My concern is future products

22 and the fact that that one DAVP may charge a lot more
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

84

1 than other DAVPs. Right? That is a business concern

2 on my end. And I am very concerned that the DOE

3 through these regulations -- unintended consequences

4 could happen to the manufacturers, which could increase

5 our costs above and beyond anything that we currently

6 expect, similar to Karen's previous statement.

7 As far as which product class and the DAVP

8 not meeting the definition of the DOE's product, that

9 is an ongoing concern. If a manufacturer meets the

10 DOE's definition of a product, then how can they not be

11 allowed to do this? If a DAVP has a certify-all

12 regulation, they're going to exert efforts and try to

13 influence a manufacturer to make a round peg fit in a

14 square hole so it fits the standard methods when it

15 will not always work out that way. And that will be a

16 burden to innovation.

17 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with

18 Mitsubishi. A lot of you are not involved in the

19 residential side. And there is a lot that we have to

20 go through on the residential side already that is

21 required by DOE. Any manufacturer has to go through

22 that. And, you know, this is new to a lot of this
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

85

1 market segment. So welcome to the club.

2 You know, DOE is adding cost to go through

3 this verification program. So what we have tried to do

4 in the commercial HVAC is to try to limit what the

5 actual impact is going to be on HVAC manufacturers.

6 And that's why we have come up with this proposal that

7 everyone has to be involved in a DAVP.

8 What we're saying within that, they're a line

9 of companies that we are acknowledging out there that

10 everything they do is an engineered product. You know,

11 essentially they're going to get a free pass because

12 there's no way to test what they have because

13 everything they do is totally engineered. And we're

14 willing to accept that. And DOE has already made a lot

15 of concessions about things that don't need to be

16 tested because the base product is being tested and all

17 of these other things are to help support

18 installations.

19 So everybody is going to have to test. We're

20 doing it residentially. We're going to have to do it

21 now commercially. It's just a matter of trying to

22 refine and make it as equal as possible for everybody.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

86

1 And that's what we're trying to do.

2 MR. STEPHENS: And I have no problems, no

3 objections with that, but when it comes to stifling

4 innovation and putting DAVPs in a position that they

5 are going to try to influence the manufacturer to say,

6 "This product isn't really what you think it is. It is

7 something else," I have a big problem with that.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. Paul Doppel with

9 Mitsubishi.

10 I don't see how you can say that it is

11 stifling innovation. So ten years ago, I was part of

12 AHRI with ductless. We had a totally new product: the

13 variable refrigerant flow product. And working with

14 AHRI and DOE, we were able to come out with this

15 totally new product. That's totally within a voluntary

16 program. And by participating in that program, we were

17 able to get our products included into ASHRAE. So,

18 instead of impeding, it assisted innovation in one of

19 the products that is totally innovative within the

20 commercial HVAC.

21 MR. STEPHENS: I can say from experience I

22 have been on both sides of the coin. It is a lot
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

87

1 different when you are standing on the top of the hill

2 looking down and when you are standing on the bottom of

3 the hill looking up. When you are a small company that

4 is introducing innovation, it is an uphill climb all

5 the way.

6 MR. DOPPEL: I was a small company. I was a

7 small company looking up. Mitsubishi was, you know,

8 just barely participating in AHRI with the ductless

9 products. So we were there, and we just --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: And you --

11 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. We made it happen.

12 MR. AMRANE: I mean, this is Karim with AHRI.

13 I think if you are talking about test procedures,

14 things like that, it's not for AHRI to judge whether

15 your product can be tested, you know, doesn't fall

16 within the test procedure. You know, again, if you

17 have an issue with a test procedure, I think there is

18 DOE. If it is a rated product, you can go to DOE and

19 ask, you know, whether you have an innovative product

20 that can be tested with the current test procedure or

21 not. If DOE says yes, then I don't think that AHRI can

22 say no. So maybe next time, go to DOE and ask whether
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

88

1 it is a product that falls within the scope of the

2 federal test procedure.

3 MR. STEPHENS: I think my position is pretty

4 clear. And it is clear that we're not going to resolve

5 this immediately.

6 MR. BALLO: One possibility -- I don't know

7 if this addresses your concerns, Phil, but, as I

8 understand it, the CRE certify-all provision applies

9 within this section. Would it address your concern if

10 it applied only within the DOE product class, so

11 certify all boilers above 2.5 million or below?

12 MR. STEPHENS: That would be a step in the

13 correct direction, but I don't believe it would resolve

14 everything.

15 MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with UL. I want

16 to go back to the point Harvey made earlier after --

17 and I assume it was in the context of the commercial

18 HVAC proposal saying that the verification or the

19 manufacturer must participate in a VICP or a DAVP and

20 setting the DAVP requirements similar to the existing

21 AHRI requirements. And it sounded like, Harvey, you

22 were saying that by doing so, it's limiting a new
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

89

1 company from entering the market or restricting trade.

2 Just for clarity, which of the stipulations

3 do you have issue with? Is it the penalty clause? Is

4 it the challenge test? Is it the qualification

5 process? I mean, what specifically in there do you

6 take issue with?

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Brian, thanks.

8 And I appreciate that. And from time to time, I think

9 I have been perhaps even more off the cuff than I

10 should be. And I think this is important enough that it

11 really does require me to sit down and think about

12 ramifications of each of these requirements in terms of

13 my perception of the distinction between what AHRI

14 brings to the table. And Lord knows I have worked,

15 enjoyed working, with them on many issues. And I'm

16 currently working with them on a couple of rating

17 method issues.

18 So I think it needs more thought. I will try

19 to do that this evening after our meeting, but I can't

20 even guarantee that I can get to it tonight.

21 MR. STEM: This is Mike Stem with Intertek.

22 I think two issues here. Number one, that proposal was
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

90

1 never intended to cross over into CRE. You're in two

2 very different places: 9010 already in the program

3 versus 1090. So you can't compare the two. I don't

4 know how you get the I guess verification from DOE that

5 that is not going to be imposed later. I think that's

6 what you asked for. And I don't know if that's

7 something that DOE can give you.

8 But pass that to Phillip's point about some

9 of the innovation and the engineered-to-order that were

10 part of the definitions that they proposed as well I

11 think helps some of that because that is a big piece of

12 your business from my understanding as well. And that

13 is going to be part of what is not included. I mean,

14 it can't be. There are so many things. I mean, for

15 what I do on a day-to-day basis building test

16 facilities, I need to make sure that it hits certain

17 points, you know, suction temperatures. And I could

18 care less about the efficiency. But I have to have

19 very, very stable conditions.

20 So there are certain things that just can't

21 be put in a box and wrapped in a pretty bow. And

22 that's what we tried to do with the different groups,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

91

1 the breakout groups, to set requirements for this

2 group. You set requirements for your group. I don't

3 think that we can get everything in one box.

4 So I'll ask Laura that question. Are there

5 any guarantees that you can give that those

6 requirements won't cross into other groups?

7 MS. BARHYDT: We recognize that the

8 industries are very different. And that was part of

9 the reason why I thought yesterday maybe it would

10 helped if we broke into groups. I think we are very

11 open to the idea of different requirements for

12 different groups for different types of products. And

13 I think it just makes sense to have different

14 requirements for different product types. We have heard

15 that different types of products have different

16 development cycles, different product live spans for

17 designs. All of those things combined just make sense

18 for products to be treated in different ways in terms

19 of verification testing.

20 The other thing is that we can as a group

21 come up with different proposals for different product

22 types. And we can send that up to ASRAC. And ASRAC can
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

92

1 submit that to the Department for notice and comment

2 rulemaking. If we send up three different proposals,

3 the Department is going to be in a difficult position

4 to just turn around and say, "Well, we understand that

5 representatives from these different industries

6 produced thought-out proposals that reflected the

7 realities of their industries." And for us to just

8 turn right around and say, "But we're tossing that out,

9 and we're going with one approach for everybody," I

10 mean, the reality is that this working group has a lot

11 of influence over what any final rule would look like.

12 So if the consensus coming out of this group is that

13 products should be treated in different ways, I think

14 that the Department is going to consider that

15 information very, very seriously. And we are very open

16 to treating different products in different ways as

17 well as different types of manufacturers, as we have

18 said. We are willing to look at that. We are willing

19 to look at different product classes. We are willing

20 to look at whether the build-to-stock, the custom-built

21 -- we are willing to look at all of those as different

22 options and treat different manufacturers who are
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

93

1 dealing with different types of products in different

2 ways. We want a verification system that is going to

3 make sense.

4 MS. DANE: Thank you, Laura. This is Mary

5 from Traulsen. I just want to make sure because there

6 seems to be some skillful turning around of the things

7 I say. And I want to make sure that it is understood

8 that what I am saying is not that I don't understand

9 that we are certifying. It is just very important to

10 the CRE industry as a whole. I know everybody else is

11 used to operating differently. The point of being a

12 voluntary certification program is just that.

13 Now, when we go to the Department-approved,

14 if we come out with across the board a copycat model of

15 the only one that we have to go by --

16 MS. BARHYDT: Let me stop you right there.

17 How are we going to get there? If the consensus of

18 this group is that there should be different programs

19 for different product types, how is it that we're going

20 to end up with a copycat? I don't understand how we're

21 getting from point A to point B.

22 MS. DANE: And I understand. I guess what
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

94

1 will happen is I will be comfortable when I see CRE is

2 excluded from having that stringent of a requirement.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You are negotiating.

4 MS. DANE: I understand I am negotiating,

5 but, I mean, there is more going on than just what is

6 going on at this table.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Mary, what I would say, what I

8 was going to suggest is possibly break for lunch soon

9 and then everybody go to their separate groups again.

10 And I have a room number for HVAC because it is a

11 different room number than where you were this morning,

12 but if CRE comes back and they have a slide and it

13 doesn't look like this slide and it is the CRE slide,

14 that is okay. It doesn't have to be this is the slide

15 for everyone. Does that help?

16 MS. DANE: Yes.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: You never said it was going to

19 --

20 MS. BARHYDT: No. I understand that.

21 MR. SACHS: At this point, I would like to

22 acknowledge what I think is a pretty elegant resolution
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

95

1 of the engineered-to-order issue and express my

2 appreciation.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any more thoughts on this

4 issue?

5 (No response.)

6 Why don't we take a break for lunch, come back here at

7 1:00 o'clock, and then break out as necessary?

8 MR. JOHNSON: Do we have that other --

9 MR. EISNER: Do we want to discuss boilers

10 more because we just did a very brief overview of

11 boilers.

12 MR. JOHNSON: Where are we going?

13 MS. BARHYDT: So the HVAC will go to 7E-069.

14 It's more or less right below us one floor, 7E-069.

15 One- hour lunch and then small groups?

16 MR. EISNER: 1:00 o'clock, until 1:00

17 o'clock.

18 MR. SACHS: I have good news for the group.

19 I will be late tomorrow.

20 (Whereupon, the meeting was recessed from

21 12:01 p.m. until 3:12 p.m.)

22 MR. EISNER: Can everybody take their seat?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

96

1 Okay. You've had another hour and a half or close to

2 an hour and a half. Actually, what are we talking

3 about? Almost two and a half. Who has got some good

4 news to report? Worked everything out?

5 MR. SACHS: We motored along.

6 MALE SPEAKER: We did motor.

7 FEMALE SPEAKER: We did motor.

8 MR. EISNER: You all know that the motor

9 people are going to join us at 4:00 o'clock. What?

10 Okay. Why don't we start off with the boilers and talk

11 about what progress they think they made?

12 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. We

13 have had a lot of discussion. And right now there

14 seems to be an impasse. I've seen no willingness by

15 the parties that want an AHRI program to flex, bend,

16 give any quarter. So I'm not sure where to go next.

17 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts from people who

18 were in that group? Frank, are there disagreements in

19 your opinion on every issue or are they just on some

20 important issues?

21 MR. MYERS: There are two critical issues

22 where the principal area is we have pushed a number of
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

97

1 other what we think at this point are less significant

2 issues off to the side to concentrate on the two

3 principal issues. That is the number of tests to be

4 run and who can run them. So those are the principal

5 issues that are intractable at this point.

6 MR. EISNER: All right. And could you

7 develop by tomorrow a report that could say, "Here are

8 all of the things we agree on. Here are the two

9 biggest issues we don't agree on. And here are the

10 ranges that they are talking about"?

11 MR. MYERS: We might be able to put something

12 together that shows the discussions that we have had,

13 but there were only a handful of places where we

14 concluded with agreement because they were all clouded

15 by these pivotal issues. We pushed a number of items

16 back in order to concentrate on the pivotal issues.

17 So it's not that we have lots of things that

18 we have agreed to and these are remaining. We have had

19 lots of discussion. There have been some areas that

20 were completely noncontroversial, but they're not

21 significant enough to really bring out as some great

22 accomplishment. The principal issues are the ones that
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

98

1 we have spent most of our time on.

2 MR. EISNER: I am thinking about the kind of

3 chart that was up on the screen before we took a break

4 for lunch where they had a whole list of criteria for a

5 verification program. What I'm saying is, could you

6 put down a whole list of criteria saying, "Unanimous on

7 these things," "No agreement on these two or three

8 things," "Here are the ranges," "Here are the pros,"

9 "what people think are the cons, "Here are the pros and

10 cons to the others" so this group could then come to a

11 vote on those issues? If you don't think you're going

12 to resolve it, some decisions are going to have to be

13 made.

14 MR. MYERS: Well, I don't know that it can't

15 be resolved, but at this point, I have not seen any

16 willingness to negotiate. There are just positions.

17 And, you know, if I saw some movement towards a

18 negotiated agreement, then perhaps we could work

19 something out.

20 MR. EISNER: That's what I'm saying. The

21 group itself, the subgroup itself, couldn't reach

22 agreement, couldn't get past you said on two big,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

99

1 important issues. I'm saying if you could give us all

2 the points that you would have in a program that

3 everybody agrees to and the ones they don't agree to,

4 we could take a vote and see whether there are enough

5 votes to pass it or we could see whether other people

6 could come up with ideas, but we can't just say, "We

7 can't resolve it. So let's forget about it." We've

8 got to have something to present to this group. At

9 least that's my thinking. If others have got a way of

10 getting past this problem?

11 MR. STARR: Is this on all sized boilers or

12 is it just certain sized boilers? Is there a breakout

13 on that because you are talking about the number of

14 tests run and --

15 MR. MYERS: It's not just boilers. This is

16 Frank Myers, PVI. It's not just boilers. It's boilers

17 and water heaters.

18 MR. STARR: Is there a size break, I mean, or

19 is it --

20 MR. MYERS: There has been general agreement

21 but not agreement, just no one is really complaining

22 about the fact that it is difficult to test, if not
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

100

1 impossible to test, products above five million BTUs to

2 the protocol. So we would not have a verification

3 program for above five million.

4 Beyond that, there is a break that has been

5 discussed. And some have proposed different quantities

6 of testing above and below two and a half million up to

7 five million. Others want the same quantity for

8 everything. And so there has not really been much

9 agreement other than general agreement above five

10 million since there is not much in the way of

11 laboratories to test. You can't really have a

12 requirement there.

13 MR. STARR: So it sounds like it breaks out

14 on size and then once it breaks out based upon size, it

15 is what quantity gets tested into those sizes; right?

16 MR. MYERS: Right. What quantity and who can

17 actually conduct the test.

18 MR. STARR: Okay.

19 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI.

20 Unfortunately, I didn't get time to bring this up. It

21 sounds fairly pessimistic for the commercial boiler

22 discussion, but I think one of the things that is
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

101

1 really common here and the working group hasn't talked

2 about is we really haven't talked about what would be

3 the verification requirements for -- I want to call

4 them the one-offs. And I actually have in my own mind

5 a little different definition of one-offs. Okay? But

6 there are a lot of similarities.

7 When you start to get into larger boilers,

8 very large input boilers, and the whole question of how

9 you're going to deal with verification of one-offs.

10 Basically the similarities are in general, they don't

11 build a lot of them. They're very large. It gets to

12 the point where they are prohibitive to be shipped

13 somewhere for testing. And they're expensive to build.

14 But I think to me at some point, the working group is

15 going to have to come up with their own suggestions for

16 how are we going to deal with the verification of the

17 one-offs. And if you do that, there may be some things

18 that may help resolve the boiler question or some of

19 the boiler issues -- but I haven't been at all of the

20 meetings -- unless it has been determined that the

21 working group is not going to talk about verifying one22 offs.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

102

1 MR. EISNER: Laura, does DOE have any

2 position on statutory authority with respect to one3 offs?

4 MS. BARHYDT: Well, they are within our

5 statutory in that they are regulated, but --

6 MR. EISNER: Do they have to be tested?

7 MS. BARHYDT: So all of these requirements

8 for verification testing are obviously not current

9 requirements. And so to the extent that we are

10 creating a verification testing requirement, we would

11 have authority to set different requirements or

12 possibly no verification testing for certain criteria,

13 such as over five million BTUs. I mean, those are

14 options on the table.

15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And a couple of

16 observations. In addition to the identifying criteria

17 that Frank brought forward of large sized, difficulty

18 to ship, and being truly one-offs, there is another

19 characteristic that I think is common to all of these.

20 And that is that there are, in fact, two more. They

21 are generally sold to relatively sophisticated

22 customers and individually and cumulatively within a
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

103

1 product class. Deviations from standards-level

2 performance are I think unlikely to have a significant

3 effect on national energy consumption. They use a lot

4 of energy individually but collectively are relatively

5 small contributors, I think. And I am open to being

6 disabused of that notion.

7 Given those aspects, I am certainly open to

8 being convinced that it is an area where the customer's

9 sophistication and all of these considerations might

10 allow us to have the standard and effect. And that

11 becomes an anchor in case there is a dispute between

12 the manufacturer and the customer. And let it go at

13 that; in other words, to not have DOE verification,

14 although we do have statutory requirements for

15 efficiency for these products. And I think that goes a

16 little beyond what we agreed to in earlier stages

17 talking about AEDMs and things, that if it's a one-off,

18 it is its own universe. We don't need a second one. I

19 think that's something we ought to consider as an

20 option for these very specialized large, individually

21 engineered products.

22 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts on that?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

104

1 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. So,

2 just following up on what Harvey said, is it DOE's

3 opinion that that one-off product needs to be listed in

4 the database?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

6 MR. FLY: Okay.

7 MS. BARHYDT: It should be certified as part

8 of the basic model. Now, whether every single one-off

9 is completely unable to be grouped, that would be up to

10 the manufacturers as to whether or not they could group

11 the models. But every product sold should be

12 certified. Every basic model sold should be certified.

13 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

14 Question to Mark: Are you calling one-off

15 what we were calling or defining as an engineered?

16 MR. FLY: Yes. I'm using that. We are

17 throwing a lot of different terms around, but

18 engineered-to-order

19 -- and I agree with Harvey that usually these

20 are being sold to a sophisticated client. And one of

21 the things that we discussed this morning in the HVAC

22 breakout session was that because there was only one
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

105

1 built and probably only one that was ever going to be

2 built, then how do you have a verification program on

3 that without building two: one to test and one to

4 sell? So that didn't seem to make sense. So if we

5 kind of excluded those from the verification program.

6 And then our discussion was one of the

7 requirements of that is you don't list an energy metric

8 for that that you can give people their capacity and

9 their power consumption, but we don't do the math as a

10 distinction to show that it's a not verified product.

11 We're wrestling with that, and I don't have a good

12 solution.

13 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. In

14 terms of this, the whole definition of what that is as

15 well as the potential for gaming the system are reasons

16 why I have been -- and I think there is fairly good

17 consensus within the boiler group avoiding making

18 special considerations for one-off or engineered

19 manufacturing; rather, created a distinction at a BTU

20 firing rate for the appliances and said that there is

21 at least a proposal that I think has consensus, though,

22 not unanimity of units that are five million BTUs per
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

106

1 hour and larger would not have annual verification

2 testing.

3 Now there is more disagreement on the smaller

4 sizes, but that was a way that we captured I think a

5 significant portion of the engineered, custom

6 engineered, products.

7 MR. EISNER: Others have comments?

8 (No response.)

9 You know, my thoughts are -- and I think we should go

10 through all three and see where we are. But my

11 thoughts are I was in most of that meeting, but I noted

12 that some people were there for a little while, weren't

13 there for the entire time. We've got to start focusing

14 on the issues. And I think the best way to do that is

15 something on the screen with a list of items that you

16 agree should be part of the program, a list of items

17 that should be part but you can't agree on what to do

18 with them, such as the number of tests or whether some

19 devices don't have to be tested. We've got to resolve

20 those. We've got to figure out whether we can get

21 agreement or whether they will just go on the report as

22 "No consensus. Forty percent wanted this. Forty
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

107

1 percent wanted that. And 20 percent wanted something

2 else."

3 And we'll see what ASRAC says. And then the

4 agency will have to decide what to do. I don't think

5 we can keep putting it off if you don't think there is

6 any possibility of getting consensus among the

7 individuals who are in the room.

8 Does anybody have any other thoughts on that?

9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. We

10 just want to confirm from AHRI and AHRI members that

11 are in the boiler and water heater group that there is

12 no interest in doing anything other than the current

13 AHRI levels and techniques. If that is the case, then

14 we should do exactly what you are saying. Put where we

15 are up on the board. And the group can decide.

16 MR. TRITSIS: Let me clarify what Frank is

17 saying here. When he's saying "the AHRI and AHRI

18 members," "there is no interest" or willingness to

19 compromise or anything like that. We don't certainly

20 want to compromise on issues of integrity. And if DOE

21 is going to set up a verification program, there have

22 to be some minimum requirements.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

108

1 So yes. We don't agree for zero testing,

2 zero verification testing. Yes. And we don't agree

3 for manufacturer self-testing. And that is what Frank

4 is talking about, not willingness of compromise.

5 MR. EISNER: And what I think would be

6 helpful - - it doesn't have to be on the chart, but

7 people should be ready to discuss their problems with

8 certain of the provisions on which you can't get

9 consensus. The larger group should be able to help in

10 some ways. Harvey may have some suggestions. He's not

11 in the room. You want to hear more about what DOE

12 says, whether DOE can live with some of the things that

13 other people won't compromise on. So DOE says, "We

14 can't do that. We don't have the authority to do that"

15 or "We don't have the authority to not do that."

16 That's important for everybody to hear.

17 I know Laura was in part of the meeting, but

18 she was not there for the entire meeting. I think

19 that's what I would recommend. You get the group back

20 together. You do the best job you can to come up with

21 the list so we have something to start with on that

22 when we discuss it.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

109

1 MR. SACHS: Neil, if I might, I have a

2 clarification question for Bill.

3 MR. EISNER: You might.

4 MR. SACHS: Am I to infer from your position

5 on verification and the analogue to the AHRI process --

6 now, I may be wrong that an analogue to the 17065,

7 17025 process of remote supervised testing at the

8 manufacturer site would not be acceptable, even for

9 one-offs. Are you not saying that?

10 MR. TRITSIS: Are we talking about products

11 above five million that we cannot test? No. We're not

12 talking about that. Is that what you're referring to:

13 the one-offs?

14 MR. SACHS: It's that but also perhaps some

15 that are somewhat smaller, two and a half, three

16 million BTU products. Specialty products that are one17 offs, not production series, is it your position that

18 these could not be tested through that satellite lab19 type arrangement?

20 MR. TRITSIS: Well, if satellite lab means

21 self- manufacture, self-verification, yes, we disagree

22 with that. We would like somebody to be present --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

110

1 okay? -- when testing is conducted. That's what we are

2 saying. That's what we are arguing here.

3 MR. SACHS: Okay. So your position -- I'm

4 just trying to understand it -- is that all of this

5 elaborate ISO stuff is not sufficient verification?

6 MR. TRITSIS: ISO 17025 or 17065, there are

7 qualify control systems --

8 MR. SACHS: Right.

9 MR. TRITSIS: -- quality systems in place

10 that don't necessarily address -- that address

11 expertise in having a qualified person, qualified

12 technician overseeing that test.

13 MR. SACHS: Okay. Thank you. That is very

14 helpful to me. Appreciate it.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay.

16 MS. MEYERS: Is it the Department's position

17 that all of these products that we're discussing in

18 this working group have to have a verification program?

19 MS. BARHYDT: That's what we would like,

20 obviously. We have expressed a great deal of

21 willingness to be flexible and work with you all based

22 on the information that is provided. I mean, our
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

111

1 going-in position is yes, it would be great to have

2 everything in a verification program. But, I mean,

3 that is a starting point for a discussion or it was a

4 starting point for a discussion. We have moved beyond

5 that point now.

6 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver

7 Brooks. I think if we're trying to identify micro

8 pieces that we do have unanimity on, I believe that

9 there is a consensus within a group that five million

10 or above, there shouldn't be verification testing

11 because of the issues with the labs. I don't think

12 anybody disagrees with that. So that's at least one

13 piece of ground that we can I think all agree on. The

14 differences come on boilers that are smaller than that.

15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Again,

16 I don't think we really had a chance to take the total

17 count there because from AHRI's perspective, as I

18 mentioned in that meeting, we have tested boilers up to

19 eight million BTUs per hour as part of our program.

20 It's in the manufacturer's facility. It's a steam

21 boiler. But we have tested up to eight million. So I

22 don't think without some strong reasons would we agree
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

112

1 that you don't need to test verification above five

2 million. Especially everybody seems to forget we are

3 going to have AEDMs, which will encompass ranges of

4 inputs over five million. And, in fact, you could

5 verify that model group or model family. You could

6 verify that model family to encompass the full range,

7 not necessarily testing all the stuff over five

8 million. You may on a rare occasion test one over five

9 million, but you can still verify the whole family by

10 testing stuff down in the two, three range and cover

11 stuff all the way up to seven, eight, nine, ten

12 million. But we have tested up to eight million. And

13 we have reasons to believe there should be verification

14 above that, above five million.

15 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. So

16 that there is not confusion about what Mr. Stanonik

17 just said, they have tested a steam boiler, steam

18 boiler. This group was also talking about water boilers

19 and water heaters.

20 And where he is absolutely correct, there

21 have been some tests by AHRI witnessed in

22 manufacturers' facilities at up to seven or eight
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

113

1 million BTUs on steam. That is a much easier task than

2 doing it on a water boiler or on a water heater. What

3 we had done -- and he did bring that up in our group.

4 As I mentioned earlier, we did not come to final

5 resolution of that. If we needed to carve out steam

6 boilers up to some number that was higher than five

7 million, okay. Maybe we can do that. But the five

8 million number applied to water boilers, to water

9 heaters, and with only that handful of products that

10 would be in that in-between range on steam boilers, the

11 general feeling was five million was a good spot to do

12 it. But it is possible in some laboratories to go up

13 to above that for steam.

14 MR. EISNER: I think that's where it will

15 help to start creating this list because you might say,

16 "Okay. We do have agreement for this one category. It

17 can go up to eight million. For these other

18 categories, it can't go above five." Maybe you will.

19 Maybe you won't. But we can narrow it down and then

20 get it in front of the entire group and see what we can

21 do then with suggestions.

22 MR. MYERS: We didn't spend a lot of time
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

114

1 discussing the nuances of that because there was

2 general agreement. And where there was disagreement,

3 it was not strong disagreement. That's what I was

4 explaining earlier, that a number of the items were in

5 that boat that we focused on the areas where there was

6 the strongest disagreement.

7 MR. EISNER: Okay. CRE? Any more progress?

8 MR. BAUMAN: I guess we took another step and

9 a half forward and three-quarters of a step back,

10 which, again, as we're going along, anybody that walked

11 in as we were having our session, we were having some

12 reviews with some people on the phone as far as

13 tolerances and things because we got into some

14 discussions of again what -- if we're going to have a

15 building along, we had discussed earlier in a penalty

16 phase or if there should be consequences in discussing

17 definition of a -- really, we went from failure to meet

18 the DOE standard or whatever to invalid rating

19 determination, which I think is a term we used from the

20 AEDMs and were I think working on that. That is the

21 basis if through verification testing, it is found that

22 a product has an invalid rating, basically above the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

115

1 five percent one-sided tolerance, then the company

2 would be subject to double the test burden for the next

3 two years.

4 So I think we got through that, again, going

5 back and questioning ourselves and things. And I would

6 say that's kind of to the point we're at. I think as

7 far as my outline and the issues we definitely need to

8 discuss still are in model selection, sample

9 procurement -- and that's where we get into talking

10 about the wonderful topics of built-to-stock, built-to11 order, engineered-to-order. So those are still some

12 things we I think have to discuss and potential -- I'll

13 say additional model verification before the start of

14 the test.

15 So there is some stuff that I propose that,

16 again, this group still needs to -- you know, we need

17 to review as a group. So I would say we made more

18 progress. You know, we're not at a standstill, I think,

19 like some of the other groups may feel like they're at.

20 But we're progressing slowly and cautiously, I guess.

21 MR. EISNER: One thing that everybody has to

22 think about is whether there are features that are
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

116

1 treated differently in one of the three groups for

2 which there is no justification for different handling;

3 for example, the penalty phase. Should it be

4 consistent? Should one failure result in the same

5 penalty in all three categories? I'm not saying it

6 should or it shouldn't. It's just again the agency has

7 to be able to justify its decisions. Can it justify

8 those kinds of distinctions?

9 Okay. And that leaves us with HVAC.

10 MR. SACHS: Neil?

11 MR. EISNER: Yes?

12 MR. SACHS: Your question brought back

13 Rusty's sheet on basic models versus testing

14 requirement. And that seems to be a reflection of not

15 only basic models but very roughly of shipments of a

16 particular product class. And to that extent, the

17 penalty might logically differ from a product class

18 that has small numbers of shipments relative to a

19 product class that has hundreds of thousands of annual

20 shipments. So it's not clear to me that the penalty

21 provisions should be the same across all three, and

22 it's not clear to me that there wouldn't be a
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

117

1 justification that would be pretty logical. I'm not

2 sure that's the case, but I am certainly not ready to

3 reject the idea of customized penalties for --

4 MR. EISNER: And I'm not suggesting there

5 should be that.

6 MR. SACHS: Yes.

7 MR. EISNER: It's just that you have to think

8 about whether the differences are justified.

9 MR. SACHS: No, I appreciate that. And you

10 have forced me to think.

11 MR. EISNER: Okay. I can go home now and

12 know that I got something done today.

13 Okay. HVAC? Who wants to --

14 MS. BARHYDT: So my understanding is that

15 HVAC talked about something else during their meeting.

16 MR. EISNER: I thought you gave them a

17 specific task at the end of their last --

18 MS. BARHYDT: Nonetheless --

19 MR. EISNER: They were told to go back and --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: We don't follow directions.

21 MR. EISNER: Well, we'll put that on the

22 list, too.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

118

1 MR. WHITWELL: We had two visitors from the

2 Department.

3 MR. SACHS: What Bob is trying to say is it's

4 John's fault.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Normally that is true. So

6 it's my fault for making progress on this issue.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Well, I opened up a million

8 different slides, and I clearly didn't open up the

9 right one.

10 (Off record discussion.)

11 MS. BARHYDT: Do you all know which slide set

12 we edited yesterday with the motors provisions?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: No. I mean, she came up with

14 one that -- I mean, Ashley had that one. I don't know

15 where. We never got it sent to us. So it had the

16 wording for the motor. Sorry, Ashley.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know where it is. Do you

18 want to find it?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Was it in this slide show

20 at all?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

22 (Off record discussion.)
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

119

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the first thing is it

2 didn't seem to me from the earlier discussion that we

3 needed this for SPVUs. That is the first issue. Is

4 there a reason this is needed for SPVUs?

5 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. I think it was

6 discussed when we discussed SPVUs, and it was added.

7 And I think during that discussion, if I recall, there

8 were some manufacturers on the phone that believed it

9 was needed as well.

10 MR. SACHS: Karim, if I remember the last

11 regulatory process, weren't there some installations

12 where SPVUs were actually ducted to the other end of

13 the room so you would get an appropriate turnover flow

14 so there would be some static pressure considerations

15 in some installations?

16 MR. AMRANE: Yes. And I think most of them

17 are probably not ducted but some of them are. You're

18 right. So, again, I mean, that was it, I believe, if I

19 recall correctly.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was looking over things.

21 And I saw it go both ways. So I wasn't sure. Anyways,

22 it doesn't matter.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

120

1 MS. HOOTMAN: (Off-microphone.)

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: They were not. We

3 specifically said they were not, yes.

4 Okay. What we talked about, I guess, was a

5 concept for a vote. And the idea here is that the

6 Department along with the manufacturers of commercial

7 HVAC are committing to a concept. And that concept

8 includes basically the idea of issuing some type of

9 enforcement guidance that will allow a base motor to be

10 rated and tested in accordance with the DOE test

11 procedure at a given static. Other models within that

12 group would not have to be tested to have higher static

13 and higher horsepower designs such that the level of

14 efficiency in the base motor is maintained or more

15 efficient in the greater horsepower designs. That is

16 the concept.

17 The second prong to that is, you know, we

18 talked about potentially a method for scaling for those

19 general purpose motors or definite purpose motors that

20 do have ratings and do have values where some type of

21 general scaling would work. There may be types of

22 motors -- and this is something we are hoping to gain
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

121

1 clarify at 4:00 p.m. a little more about what types of

2 motors are actually used in commercial HVAC systems,

3 but there may be some types of motors that are not

4 rated and cannot be tested in accordance with an

5 industry test procedure like the IEEE procedure, which

6 is the DOE test procedure incorporated by reference.

7 For those, you couldn't mix and match such that the

8 base motor design is more efficient than a different

9 type of motor that you then incorporate.

10 I said the right words, I am pretty sure,

11 more or less that we talked about downstairs. That is

12 the concept that we would like to put up to vote. We

13 are hoping that with this vote, there is a commitment

14 by the Department and by the manufacturers to work out

15 a method that makes this workable such that with this

16 vote, we can include the basic model, the

17 certification, and the date for HVAC with the ASRAC

18 package for next week. Without it, it will be held.

19 And we're worried about the December 31st deadline.

20 I see some nods around the table. So I think

21 I got the language right. I realize I need to word the

22 wording on the slide a little bit different, but at
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

122

1 least the language, what I just said, is on the

2 transcript, and we can grab it. Are we comfortable

3 with voting the concept out and committing to working

4 towards -- we would come up with a definite solution

5 prior to publication or issuance of a proposed rule.

6 And if we didn't, that would be held. Yes. So she

7 probably shouldn't read what is on the slide because it

8 is not --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: (Off-microphone.)

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what I just said.

11 MS. MEYERS: Ashley? So if you wouldn't mind

12 since I wasn't in that breakout session, would you mind

13 just walking through that one more time?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

15 MS. MEYERS: Thank you.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hopefully, I say the same

17 thing. So the general premise that you would be

18 agreeing to is whatever motor a manufacturer elects as

19 their base motor design, all our motors for higher

20 static, higher horsepower applications would have to

21 have equal or better performance as that base motor.

22 MR. EISNER: And how is that determined?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

123

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The devil is in the details.

2 So we are committing at this point to a concept. We

3 are committing to working through the details, whether

4 it be scaling or whether it be some other alternative

5 method. You can't just put a more efficient design in a

6 base motor and switch to a less efficient design in the

7 higher statics. You could switch designs such that we

8 find an equitable way to show that they're comparable.

9 And then for those motors, the only thing we're hoping

10 to gain clarity on is how many motors actually don't

11 have ratings or cannot be tested in accordance with

12 either an industry method right now or the DOE method,

13 which they are the same. And if that's the case, we

14 are committing to working through some type of

15 methodology which would provide that level of assurance

16 that the motor design is representative of the

17 efficiency of all the motors in that grouping

18 basically.

19 MR. EISNER: And that can be handled by

20 guidance.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're going to work through

22 it with guidance. So we're committing to a concept
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

124

1 here. We are committing to working through it so that

2 the package can move to ASRAC. We will keep going on

3 the details. And if the details aren't worked out,

4 then the notice of proposed rulemaking for HVAC will be

5 held for cert, for the compliance date, et cetera,

6 until we can get the details and issue the guidance at

7 the same time.

8 MR. STARR: I think there is other thing

9 about the base model also. Whatever, your motor and

10 your base model actually have to be commerce. So you

11 can't just switch out and use a bad motor in your base

12 model. And then it actually has to be something you

13 sell.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I mean, that's part

15 of their certification anyway. They're going to have

16 to certify the base motor, you know, design.

17 MS. MEYERS: So maybe some of the HVAC

18 engineers in the room can help me with this question.

19 So standard drives and high static drives are already

20 established. So what does this mean for current

21 equipment?

22 MS. HOOTMAN: So Karen, this is Jill Hootman.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

125

1 We don't know, but what we are committing to is to work

2 out those details and work through those details with

3 the motor manufacturers in finding out whether we have

4 any issues or gaps if the concept will work, and if

5 not, we'll have to come up with something for those

6 motors that may not cross over or have this issue.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you are agreeing to a

8 policy premise; right? And the policy is that you

9 believe that your base motor design's efficiency should

10 be equal to or the lowest of all other motor designs in

11 that grouping. In other words, you agree to the premise

12 that you shouldn't be able to switch out a less

13 efficient motor for high static designs and then just

14 have it not tested or subject to verification. And if

15 you want to do that, then it becomes its own base model

16 and is subsequently subject to verification testing.

17 And so you would --

18 MR. EISNER: And having agreed to the

19 premise, having agreed to the premise, will the

20 manufacturers be able to agree to the schedule without

21 the bracketed caveats?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, we talked about
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

126

1 --

2 MR. FLY: Say that again.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: He wants to know if you would

4 agree to the schedule. In other words, working through

5 this over the next month or so while the package moves

6 forward through ASRAC, through the Department, the

7 proposed rule starts to get drafted assuming the

8 approvals go through.

9 MR. EISNER: So the caveat will come off the

10 charts when we send it to ASRAC.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: What's the caveat?

12 MR. EISNER: The caveats were the brackets

13 that we had for three --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. They will come off, but

15 there will be a caveat on this saying if we don't reach

16 the details, then it gets pulled from the NOPR.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, yes. It gets flipped over

18 to this --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. It just flips over to

20 this.

21 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. So,

22 you know, what we're asking ASRAC as the Committee goes
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

127

1 forward is ASRAC is going to agree to let this

2 Committee working with DOE to work out the details and

3 agree to the concept so that we won't have to go back

4 through ASRAC again to get this approved. Is that

5 correct?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right because the December

7 31st date is soon. And this would hold up that, the

8 whole package, for HVAC.

9 MR. WHITWELL: So, Karen, this is Bob

10 Whitwell from Carrier. So just thinking about the

11 example that Diana Jakobs was talking about yesterday,

12 where there is some possibility that -- or more work to

13 be done, let's say, would be an example like where she

14 has a 46 or a 58 frame definite purpose motor that is

15 the base motor and then may have general purpose motors

16 for high static applications. There would have to be

17 efficiency data on the definite purpose motor that

18 would be tested in the similar fashion to the way it is

19 tested on the general purpose motors so that you could

20 compare the efficiency at the dominant purpose motor's

21 horsepower with the general purpose motor's horsepower,

22 NEMA general purpose horsepower, DOE minimum
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

128

1 efficiencies at that point and look at how it scales to

2 the higher static application. So there may be some

3 efficiency data that you would need to get from your

4 motor manufacturer to see if your current motors will

5 work or if you need to get higher efficiency motors.

6 Follow me?

7 MS. MEYERS: Yes. I think I do. I think it

8 is a great idea, but isn't this what NEMA objected to?

9 MR. EISNER: Can you save it --

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, but it's not clear why.

11 I think they're going to talk at 4:00?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. We don't know.

13 MR. WHITWELL: I don't understand what their

14 objection was.

15 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

16 Would it make sense to hear what they say at 4:00 and

17 then vote after that?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You want my opinion of it?

19 MR. DOPPEL: Well, it's almost 4:00 now.

20 It's like --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: My opinion of it is that this

22 is it. I mean, it's not going to change. We're
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

129

1 committing working through a solution. If NEMA doesn't

2 think the scaling would work, we would have to find a

3 different solution. But we are committing to working

4 through a solution because the premise of this is you

5 agree that it is not a good practice to take a base

6 motor and then switch out a less efficient motor in

7 theory and then distribute in commerce something that

8 isn't -- and then ask the Department for an exclusion

9 from the standard basically.

10 MR. EISNER: A vote? Ready? Does anybody

11 oppose?

12 Does anybody want to abstain?

13 Okay. I think we're ready for our 4:00

14 o'clock meeting.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do it. Thanks, Neil.

16 MR. EISNER: Do we want to take a break for

17 five minutes? Do we have anything else that we need to

18 raise? Okay. Why doesn't everybody take five minutes?

19 (Whereupon, the meeting was recessed from

20 3:55 p.m. until 4:09 p.m.)

21 MR. EISNER: Can everybody get to your seats?

22 Please everybody who wants to participate in this get
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

130

1 to your seats. Okay. I understand that we have

2 manufacturers online. Can you introduce yourselves?

3 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with --

4 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, NEMA.

5 MR. EISNER: Could we get that again

6 separately?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So one was Alex from NEMA.

8 MR. BOESENBERG: Yes.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I didn't hear the second.

10 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You don't manufacture motors.

12 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm just looking for the

14 motors people. Alex, do you know who -- sorry. Paul

15 Lin from Regal Beloit.

16 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

18 MR. EISNER: All right. I think we're ready

19 to begin with the motors discussion. Do we have a plan

20 on how we want to handle this?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. There's always a plan,

22 Neil.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

131

1 MR. EISNER: That's why I wanted you to

2 announce it.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's unclear what it is yet.

4 So, Alex and Paul, I think to preface the

5 discussions a little bit, maybe with the goal of what

6 we are trying to do here, one of the things we have had

7 discussions surrounding is the idea that a specific

8 base model of commercial HVAC equipment incorporates a

9 certain motor into it for the purposes of testing and

10 rating and coming up with their EER values. They also

11 offer that same base commercial HVAC design with other

12 types of motors, specifically higher horsepower motors

13 for different static applications.

14 So the request from the HVAC manufacturers

15 and the commitment that we just made is we would like a

16 way to determine that these higher horsepower motors

17 are equal or better-performing motors in terms of

18 energy efficiency than the motor that's included in the

19 base design. So the first question we fundamentally

20 had is what type of motors are used in the commercial

21 HVAC equipment and how do you tell. Are they all

22 general purpose motors? Are they general purpose and
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

132

1 definite purpose motors? Are there any other types of

2 motors? There has been some discussion. They all seem

3 to have air blowing over them. But it is my

4 understanding that most of them don't actually qualify

5 as an air-over motor.

6 So we're hoping that NEMA and Paul or anyone

7 else who has joined us can help shed some light on how

8 do you determine what type of motor is actually in that

9 commercial HVAC design. Does that seem reasonable to

10 start with?

11 MR. WHITWELL: To start with, you're right.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I don't know if Alex

13 or Paul or someone else wants to start, but feel free

14 to speak up.

15 MR. LIN: From the technology that is

16 utilized within the commercial HVAC and based on the

17 basic groups that were provided by AHRI, the models

18 that are utilized are permits but capacitor-type

19 motors, single-phase, NEMA 48 frame, as well as ECM

20 motors within the NEMA 48 frame. And they go up to, the

21 next step that they go up to, is a 56 frame poly-phase

22 motor to the integral horsepower 3- digit NEMA frame
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

133

1 sizes. I would say most of the data that we have seen

2 is the 56 frame and 3-digit type motors are typically

3 general purpose duty.

4 There are some definite purpose duty motors.

5 And I think you see a little bit of that within the

6 basic group that was provided from AHRI. The

7 assumption is that the models that were provided with

8 efficiency data, even though they say air-over rated

9 for general purpose duty, because it's not standard

10 practice for the industry to put efficiency data on

11 air-over motors. And so there are I think three, maybe

12 four model, basic group models, that did not have any

13 efficiency data. And those are going to be assumed to

14 be air-over.

15 And so from that standpoint, I think that's

16 the motor that we're talking about. I don't think I

17 saw any 56 frame cap-start, cap-run-type motors that

18 were defined within the spreadsheet or any split phase19 type motors.

20 So I think that covers your question, I

21 think, here, Ashley, doesn't it?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I think that mostly
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

134

1 covers it, although is the presence -- I guess an

2 absence of efficiency data? How do you fundamentally

3 tell if something is an air-over motor versus just a

4 general purpose or definite purpose motor?

5 MR. EISNER: And, Alex and Paul, before you

6 speak, since this is being recorded, could you please

7 identify yourselves?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

9 MR. LIN: Sure. This is Paul Lin with Regal.

10 Well, let's take a specific example. So on the ECM11 type and the 48 frame PSC motors, those motors would

12 not be able to maintain the load without having air

13 over the motor. The UL that is on the PSC motor, the

14 thermo, the thermostat would trip. And the motor would

15 stop. And on the ECM motor, depending on what the

16 manufacturer's algorithm is, you could either stop or

17 start lightening the load, if you will, or the output,

18 I should say, of the motor. And those would be

19 required to have air-over basically to say that in

20 order to meet temperature limits, that UL is defined

21 within either your installation class B, which most of

22 these motors are. You need to have some sort of air
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

135

1 flow over the motor in order to maintain temperature.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Hey, Paul, this is Bob

3 Whitwell with Carrier. So in the application, you

4 would have air over these, but when a motor

5 manufacturer provides efficiency data on a motor, one

6 of these motors, for example, an ECM motor, is that

7 tested with air-over?

8 MR. LIN: It is not. So the data that is

9 provided, let's say, from the 56 frame as well as 3-

10 digit, those are generally tested if it's not an air11 over-rated without any air over it. And then on the 48

12 frame, what we do is we put it on a dyno and do a break

13 curve on it. And that generally takes maybe two to

14 three minutes at the most. And there is no directed

15 air over it now. So that gives you kind of a

16 difference in terms of the method that we test. The 48

17 frame is not to the IEEE 112-B method.

18 MR. WHITWELL: But it is to the method in

19 that it is tested in still air; correct?

20 MR. LIN: Correct.

21 MR. WHITWELL: And so what would be the

22 difference between the IEEE test and what is used for
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

136

1 48 frame or an ECM motor, then?

2 MR. LIN: Just the stabilization to

3 temperature.

4 MR. WHITWELL: And how big a difference would

5 that be? Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the IEEE

6 test procedure. So I don't know what the stabilization

7 temperature would be.

8 MR. LIN: It could be large in terms of the

9 load data and efficiency at the temperature. So if you

10 try to do -- well, assuming that you can keep it coo;

11 right, if you try to run the 112-B with no air over an

12 air-over- rated motor, you won't be able to get there.

13 The motor will trip out before you would even stabilize

14 load.

15 And if you asked a question what would a 56

16 frame or a 3-digit -- what if you tested it in a

17 similar manner with just the break curve, what is the

18 difference? I'm not sure how much of a correlation that

19 you can have relative to cold versus hot data.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill Hootman from

21 Trane. So I want to understand something further on

22 this 48 frame and the ECM. Are you saying that if I
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

137

1 were to ask you what was the efficiency of those motors

2 to IEEE-112, you could not portray that to us?

3 MR. LIN: We would have to make some

4 assumptions in terms of how much air that you would

5 want to have over the motor. So we would throw some

6 air on top of it. Is the same exact air flow over that

7 particular test the same as what you would see in the

8 unit? We can't guarantee that, but it would be

9 somewhat close. When we provide you with the data, we

10 have an externally driven fan that we provide air over

11 the control to keep things cool. And that has some

12 correlation relative to some of your air flow data.

13 And the efficiency maps are given with the

14 same air-over. If you're looking as a point, if you're

15 asking as a point standpoint, what is the efficiency of

16 the rated point, we would probably take just more of

17 the dyno curves and give you the efficiency at the

18 rated point.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So if I were then to

20 compare that motor and that rating at whatever you --

21 like you said, whatever you decided, would it be a fair

22 comparison, then, against the integrals because those
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

138

1 are not tested with air-over? Am I saying that

2 correctly?

3 MR. LIN: Well, I think that's where we start

4 getting into a little bit of where we have some issues

5 relative to the method. Because of the technology

6 differential of a 48 frame versus a 56 frame, a PSC

7 versus a 3-phase induction, it's hard to say that you

8 could accurately scale efficiencies that way; right?

9 And then what is the starting point on a PSC and what

10 is the starting point on an ECM? We don't have those

11 defined like the small motor, 48/56, or the integral,

12 12/12/12/11 table, as we have on the integral side.

13 Take, for example, if we had said an ECM

14 was 78 percent efficient. And then if you pulled up

15 the table; right, on a one-horse per the small motor,

16 an ECM would be 78. And then a poly-phase or a single17 phase -- it depends on how you want to look at it;

18 right? A single- phase small motor efficiency is 83.8.

19 And a poly-phase one-horse 56 frame is 83.5. So off

20 the bat, the ECM is less efficient than those 56

21 frames. So how do you scale that particular model to a

22 56 frame and then, for that matter, the 3-digit
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

139

1 integrals? And if you compare that 78 percent ECM

2 efficiency on a one-horse, compare that to, let's say,

3 a 6-pole 48 frame PSC at 58 to 62 percent, how does

4 that scale relative to a 56 frame one-horse at 83.8?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Thank you.

6 MR. LIN: And how do you define what the base

7 efficiency is as the PCM motor and the ECM motor?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Thank you. I understand what

9 you are saying.

10 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe we need to come back

11 to that, but I would like to then -- let's see about 56

12 frame poly-phase motors. So if we were to look at

13 definite purpose 56 frame poly-phase motors, my

14 understanding is that they could be tested using the

15 IEEE test procedure. Is that correct?

16 MR. LIN: That's correct.

17 MR. WHITWELL: So we ought to be able to use

18 the scaling on the 56 frame poly-phase motors, scale

19 them just like we would with a general purpose motor;

20 correct?

21 MR. LIN: I think the issue there still is

22 you've got a frame diameter of a 56 frame. And how do
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

140

1 you scale that to a larger diameter ten-horsepower

2 integral horsepower?

3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I guess you could have a

4 3- horsepower 56 frame motor or you could have a 3-

5 horsepower general purpose T-frame motor. You have the

6 efficiency of those. And then you could do the scaling

7 then; right?

8 MR. MALINOWSKI: Guys, this is John

9 Malinowski at Baldor Electric. Can you hear me okay?

10 MR. SACHS: Yes.

11 MR. LIN: We hear you, John.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

13 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes. I just got unmated

14 here. I think we need to step back one place here.

15 Paul was talking about testing a number of different

16 technologies using IEEE-112. And IEEE-112 method B is

17 for 3-phase motors only. It's not for single-phase

18 motors. There is a different IEEE method for that.

19 And there is a different method for testing ECM motors

20 where a drive is involved.

21 Speaking on behalf of our company, we do not

22 test TEA motors on a dynamometer. We do the testing in
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

141

1 the fan, in the air stream, so that we know what the

2 temperature rise is with the particular fan. And we

3 establish a minimum CFM for the motor to meet rating

4 and temperature rise with a particular air-over

5 cooling. So I think there is not a NEMA standard or an

6 industry standard on how we do this. So I think you

7 may get a different answer with respect to that from

8 different motor manufacturers.

9 And as far as scaling, our responses to the

10 DOE on scaling on the motor rule is that you really

11 can't scale. We have shown that technically. And our

12 technical section would like to be online. Roger

13 Daugherty is on the call, and he can address scaling if

14 we --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think, in part, you guys

16 are missing what we are trying to do here. We are not

17 trying to come up with a definitive efficiency value

18 for scaling or by scaling. You guys have your existing

19 AEDMs. You have your existing test procedures. You

20 come up with the ratings as you may. What we are

21 trying to do here is to just provide some method that

22 says, yes, this motor is relatively as efficient as
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

142

1 that one or better. It's not about coming up with, you

2 know, this one is an 80, this one is an 82, and it has

3 to be 100 percent correct. What we are trying to do

4 here is get close and without all of this testing so

5 that they don't have to test every single one of their

6 different combinations of refrigeration system and

7 motor design basically.

8 So while I can appreciate the fact that

9 NEMA's technical committee says that scaling is not the

10 best way to come out with a definitive efficiency value

11 for the purposes of putting it on their nameplate, I do

12 think scaling is a way to get close enough. That is

13 what we are trying to do here. The purpose here is

14 different than you guys coming up with a valid way to

15 rate your products.

16 MR. MALINOWSKI: Ashley?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you need to

18 understand that; right? I mean, that is what we are

19 going for here at least: the premise.

20 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes. This is John

21 Malinowski again. Is it not possible for the fan

22 manufacturer to look at our technical data and motor
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

143

1 efficiency for each different -- I mean, we have

2 product literature that shows that data for the

3 respective horsepower ratings and speeds. Is that not

4 a more accurate or better way of doing it than scaling?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the issue -- I think

6 the problem is that what at least we've heard that has

7 been encountered is that data isn't available for all

8 of the different types of motors and models that they

9 use in their equipment. So if that data is available,

10 great, done deal, even better.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the question becomes when

13 it's not. And so I don't know if you were on at the

14 very beginning and heard the outset, but, you know,

15 when that data is available and you guys are willing to

16 share it with them, it's publicly available, fine, no

17 issue.

18 They can compare, and that's not the ones

19 we're talking about. We're talking about the subset of

20 the market where either the data is not available or

21 there are -- they are motors that there is no industry

22 test procedure for. So we need some type of
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

144

1 input/output method to come up with the efficiency, and

2 we need some type of method to scale, to show that that

3 motor is performing at or better than the base design.

4 And that's what we're trying to enlist the

5 help of. We're not trying to say, "This is the nominal

6 full load efficiency of that design." We're trying to

7 say, "Its relative performance is at or better."

8 I'm looking at the ceiling like they're

9 there.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: So I will also add -- this is

11 Jill from Trane. When we came up with this proposal,

12 in theory I really like it. But then I went back to my

13 engineers and said, "Hey, guys, tell me what the

14 efficiency is of all of our motors." And they said,

15 "We don't always have it." I said, "Okay. Can we get

16 that from the motor manufacturers?" "I don't know. I

17 don't have it in the data I get from the motor

18 manufacturers."

19 So my pushback is, can you give me a relative

20 efficiency like Ashley is describing? It doesn't, you

21 know, have to necessarily be something that you're

22 certifying to the government. It's what you're telling
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

145

1 me so that I can turn around and assure that my ratings

2 have not changed, and then I can be in the idea of this

3 proposal such that I am not taking my -- you know,

4 taking advantage of essentially ratings with my

5 oversized motors.

6 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is John Malinowski from

7 Baldor again. Our company, and probably most of the

8 NEMA members on here, work with a lot of different fan

9 manufacturers. And, you know, we routinely supply

10 efficiency data to everyone that asks. That

11 performance data is readily available.

12 Worst case is that it's -- we will have to

13 run it back through Engineering and, you know, get a

14 quick calculation on a model that may not be a

15 standard. But certainly it's something available in a

16 very short time. Should not be a problem for you to get

17 the data.

18 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest. Can you

19 hear me?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

21 MR. RIVEST: Hello?

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

146

1 MR. RIVEST: Okay, good. I'm usually in the

2 room. John, you know, in deriving the scaling, as you

3 know, I simply took the existing table of efficiencies

4 and applied reductions and losses, and, you know, or

5 increases in losses and got bands of 10 percent, 20

6 percent, et cetera.

7 And I realize that it may be that motors are

8 not available with the same loss values and all the

9 horsepower ratings. So, you know, another way we could

10 do this, if we had the data, is if we said, "Well, if

11 the motor being used in the certification unit is in

12 the top quartile of the available products, then the

13 motor being used in all other designs within that

14 grouping should be in the top quartile." Something

15 like that.

16 And if I had the market data, I could run --

17 you know, I could curve it to it and probably get

18 something that's better than what we have, and that

19 would give everyone the assurance that we're not coming

20 up with designs that can't be built.

21 And certainly I'd, you know, be happy to try

22 and do that if I have the data.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

147

1 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is John Malinowski. I

2 think you should work with our technical committee on

3 that. We have had the same issues with the motor

4 scaling, the reduction of losses from different ways,

5 that was looked at through the Navigant Motor Study.

6 And there were some assumptions made there that didn't

7 work, and it's not going to work here either.

8 So we need to do things that are realistic

9 and attainable. I don't think the industry -- your

10 industry wants us to create super motors that are so

11 expensive that your customers would have a lot of

12 pushback on your product. You know, we don't want to

13 go to permanent magnet motors using neodymium magnets.

14 MR. RIVEST: But you understand they wouldn't

15 go there unless they put that in their base unit,

16 right?

17 MR. MALINOWSKI: If you're trying to reduce

18 losses by 10 and 20 percent, you are walking a fine

19 line there in designing motors that are --

20 MR. RIVEST: But, John, I'm not trying to do

21 anything. Manufacturers of this equipment can choose

22 to put motors in their equipment that is less
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

148

1 efficient. It can be in the bottom quartile. That's

2 not a problem, right? It's their choice because they

3 will make tradeoffs with other designs, other design

4 options, to get the overall performance of their

5 system.

6 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yep.

7 MR. RIVEST: So what they're doing is they're

8 dialing in the motor efficiency in their certified

9 unit, and they are replicating it throughout every

10 other unit in that group. And what DOE has agreed to

11 do is to not test and not have the manufacturers test

12 those other units, so long as they can demonstrate that

13 the motor is equal in performance or better.

14 And, you know, it could be discussions of how

15 that demonstration would be made, but this is not a max

16 tech pushing thing. There is nothing theoretical about

17 this. And if the scaling is pushing you to

18 efficiencies that require different steels or different

19 technologies at higher horsepower, than the scaling

20 should be changed. And the best way to do it would be

21 through real world data about the product that is being

22 sold today.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

149

1 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes. This is John again.

2 The DOE requires that we put motor efficiency on every

3 motor we sell here in -- that's a covered product. So

4 we are used to putting motor efficiency data and having

5 that readily available. So I think, you know, if you

6 were to look at our product data sheets, I think that

7 would be a good direction.

8 MR. RIVEST: Sure.

9 MR. MALINOWSKI: What we might expect is that

10 for a more efficient unit that a higher efficiency fan

11 might be used, and that would actually lead to us not

12 upsizing the motor but actually allowing us to put a

13 lower horsepower motor on, have the same amount of

14 airflow. And that, you know, is, you know, the system

15 efficiency that historically, you know, we kind of push

16 toward.

17 MR. RIVEST: Right.

18 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger Daugherty with

19 Baldor Electric. From an earlier description, it

20 sounded like you were saying that it's like back in the

21 1970s when, for any given rating of motor, there would

22 be various levels of efficiency motors that were
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

150

1 available from manufacturers, and what they'd call

2 standard efficient, energy efficient, or premium

3 efficient.

4 And you're wanting to try to decide which of

5 those could fit into the product that would meet the

6 overall requirement with the system efficiency.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I disagree. I actually don't

8 think we're doing that at all.

9 MR. DAUGHERTY: But that's the way it was

10 described.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not how it's

12 described. So the HVAC manufacturers are saying, "I

13 want to use this motor and this design." And whatever

14 that is, don't care what it is, say it's the standard

15 motor, this is what they have used in their design.

16 What we are saying is they -- and say that's a one

17 horsepower motor. What they also offer is a three

18 horsepower version and a five horsepower version. And

19 in some cases it's exactly the same type, and in other

20 cases it's not.

21 What we want to make sure is that the three

22 horsepower is a standard or better, and the five
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

151

1 horsepower is a standard or better. There is no push

2 to a better efficiency. There is no push to a

3 different efficiency. What we don't want is I'm

4 switching out to a worse efficiency.

5 In other words, they still at will can design

6 their base products, and their other products, however

7 they want. But the level of performance across a

8 given, for lack of a better term, platform or base

9 grouping has to be the same from the motor. There is

10 no design here.

11 MR. DAUGHERTY: But if you do not know what

12 the efficiency is of the one that you're substituting,

13 how are you going to make a decision?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's why we're having this

15 discussion.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. This is Jill from

17 Trane. That's why I asked, if I came to you and asked

18 for efficiency of all my motors, which it appeared when

19 I talked to some of my engineers we didn't necessarily

20 have, would you be able to give me, you know, the

21 efficiency? And I believe somebody came back and said

22 you could.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

152

1 So, you know, our dilemma is I have, for

2 instance -- I don't know if I have this exactly right,

3 but I think for comparison I have a 10-ton gas/electric

4 packaged unit I make. It has a three horsepower

5 standard motor in it. We go and offer a five or a

6 seven and a half horsepower motor. They have to be the

7 same or better efficiency. And I have to assure that

8 to DOE.

9 So if I come back to you as an HVAC

10 manufacturer to my motor manufacturer and say, "Provide

11 me my efficiencies on all of these motors, so I can

12 make this comparison," that was the premise of my

13 question. Would you give it to me? And would it be

14 all on the same basis? I realize that there might be a

15 difference in test, but we would be talking about

16 three-phase motors all being compared together, or

17 single-phase motors all being compared together, or --

18 I shouldn't say this -- ECM may not be. ECM may go to

19 -- ECM to a -- because of the availability of ECM

20 motors, it may have to be compared to some single21 phase/poly-phase.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. But we would like --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

153

1 okay. This may be more difficult, but we would like to

2 be able to somehow compare an ECM to a poly-phase,

3 right?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: But --

5 MR. WHITWELL: But that may be more

6 difficult.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: And why we asked you guys is

8 because we're not necessarily -- I mean, that's great

9 for the person who -- to John who said, "Yes, we can

10 give you efficiency data." But it was our

11 understanding prior to this conversation that that may

12 not be available. So that's where the concept of -- is

13 there some idea of bands that we could go around to

14 say, you know, it's close enough.

15 It's not going -- it's not to push the HVAC

16 manufacturers into buying more efficient products.

17 It's not pushing the manufacturers of motors to offer,

18 you know, more or different types of motors. The idea

19 here is just, with what you're currently doing, is

20 there a way to say, you know, Motor A, Motor B, and

21 Motor C, for a given product platform of HVAC

22 equipment, has roughly the same level of efficiency.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

154

1 It's either a standard motor, it may be a premium

2 motor, whatever.

3 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger Daugherty. But

4 in your evaluation or for the point of comparison,

5 what's the basic comparison? In the example of a three

6 horsepower motor that may be substituted with a five

7 horsepower or seven, for the five horsepower motor,

8 what's the operation point at which you are looking for

9 efficiency? Is it when the five horsepower motor is

10 operating at a three horsepower load and the seven is

11 at a three? Or the five at its full load rating and

12 the seven at its full load?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: The load --

14 MR. DAUGHERTY: What is the basis -- you're

15 you're making the comparison?

16 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. And

17 what drove -- what is driving this is that all of the

18 air conditioning test standards have a certain static

19 pressure at which is the standard condition for test.

20 Now, not all air conditioning units get applied at that

21 - - in the field at that standard pressure.

22 However, DOE needs to certify that all
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

155

1 products are operating at an equivalent efficiency

2 level. So if I have my unit that was, say, run at the

3 test condition of a quarter inch of static pressure,

4 and I apply it at one inch of static pressure, I'm

5 going to put a much bigger motor on there to make that

6 happen.

7 And so all we're looking for is when I put

8 that bigger motor on there at that point, am I putting

9 a much worse motor efficiency-wise than what I tested

10 at? We know that it's going to pull more watts because

11 the demand of the system that we are attaching it to is

12 not the same as the test condition.

13 So, you know, if we're looking at a one

14 horsepower motor to a five horsepower motor, we'd be

15 looking at a one horse at one horse break horsepower,

16 and at five horse break horsepower.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

18 MR. FLY: Same point on the curve.

19 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is John Malinowski at

20 Baldor. Maybe between Roger and I we can drive down to

21 something here. We keep talking back and forth about

22 standard motors. What we would -- what we in the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

156

1 industry would like you to do is establish an

2 efficiency level that we understand. In other words,

3 the DOE has recognized a couple of different efficiency

4 levels based on our NEMA MG-1 standards.

5 There is a table called 1211, which is energy

6 efficient motors, and we have another table, 1212,

7 which is a premium efficient motor that is a little bit

8 more efficient than that. So if you're talking about a

9 standard motor, and if it's an air over motor, it could

10 be an unregulated motor that doesn't really have an

11 efficiency standard. So --

12 MR. BOTELER: And, John -- this is Rob -- it

13 doesn't have a test standard either.

14 MR. MALINOWSKI: That is true. So we really,

15 really are operating in vaporware out here on that.

16 When we were to take a larger motor and install it with

17 the same fan, what we need to establish is that five

18 horse or seven and a half or 10 horse motor, we put the

19 three horsepower rated fan on, it is going to operate

20 at a different load point relative to the motor's

21 rating in the efficiency that we have on the nameplate.

22 So to Roger's point, where is that motor
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

157

1 operating relative to its full load point?

2 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest. So like

3 all engineers, we like to complicate things. We are

4 really just asking you to provide the efficiency based

5 on the test procedure at the loading of the test

6 procedure.

7 MR. MALINOWSKI: At what load point? It is

8 not going to run --

9 MR. RIVEST: When you put a number on a

10 nameplate, what is that load point?

11 MR. MALINOWSKI: That is full load, but you

12 are not running it at full load.

13 MR. RIVEST: Well, it doesn't matter.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't matter. We want

15 full load. That's all we want.

16 MR. MALINOWSKI: It's going to operate at a

17 lighter load, and the efficiency is going to be lower.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: We understand.

19 MR. RIVEST: But you're trying to design a

20 system for us. We don't want you to design a system.

21 We just are asking you if you can provide the full load

22 efficiencies for the motors that you are selling to
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

158

1 HVAC manufacturers.

2 MR. MALINOWSKI: Absolutely. They are on the

3 nameplates.

4 MR. RIVEST: So that's --

5 MR. FLY: We are trying to certify single

6 points for a motor, not the map, not the map of all

7 operating conditions available. And we are not

8 certifying for our HVAC equipment the map. We are

9 certifying a single point.

10 MR. DOPPEL: In your operation of your system

11 --

12 MR. MALINOWSKI: A single point that the

13 motor may never operate at.

14 MR. RIVEST: Correct.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We understand that. We are

16 beyond that. So that's just -- that's that.

17 MR. MALINOWSKI: There is no problem in

18 giving you the full load efficiency for the motor.

19 That should be something that any motor manufacturer --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: For any type of motor that is

21 incorporated into a commercial HVAC system. That is

22 the issue.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

159

1 MR. BOTELER: This is Rob. I think the

2 answer to that is we will all test slightly

3 differently, so we don't have a DOE test standard that

4 we are testing to.

5 MR. RIVEST: And that applies to the air over

6 motors, correct?

7 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. But earlier --

8 MR. RIVEST: Air overs, to the multi-speeds,

9 and to the ECMs.

10 MR. WHITWELL: But earlier I heard that at

11 least for 56 frame poly-phase they can be tested per

12 the same - - to the same standard, the IEEE standard,

13 that is used for general purpose motors, correct?

14 MR. RIVEST: No, for small motors.

15 MALE SPEAKER: This is a three phase, and

16 it's a non-air over rated.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So, good. That's one

18 thing we can take off the list. Okay?

19 MR. MALINOWSKI: It is IEEE 114. It's not

20 112. It's 114 for single phase, and it's 112 for three

21 phase. And if it's a plain old open motor, or a plain

22 old enclosed motor, without air over, that can be
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

160

1 tested on the dyno. There is a standard procedure for

2 that. There is not a problem. But when you get into

3 air over, everybody does it a little bit different.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And by "a little bit," are we

5 close enough, or are we drastic different?

6 MR. MALINOWSKI: Well, how close is "close"?

7 MR. BOTELER: Two or three bands, is that

8 close enough?

9 MR. RIVEST: No. That's 30 percent

10 difference in losses.

11 MR. BOTELER: Yes.

12 MR. RIVEST: Yeah.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, but within a given -- do

14 you guys all use single suppliers or multiple?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Multiple.

16 (Simultaneous discussion.)

17 MR. MALINOWSKI: Do we use what?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: She was asking us manufacturers

19 if we all use single suppliers, and we said no, we use

20 multiples. Right? We love to push you guys for those

21 motor contracts.

22 MR. MALINOWSKI: We've never noticed.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

161

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly.

2 MR. FLY: Must be talking about engineers.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, really, we're talking

4 about -- so, really, it comes down to your HVAC guys

5 here are going to be asking you for the full load of

6 efficiency data of all motors they buy for you that you

7 currently can test to an IEEE procedure. I can tell

8 you that much.

9 And after that, it whittles down to air over,

10 and can we come up with an equitable solution for air

11 over?

12 MR. LIN: Ashley, this is Paul Lin with

13 Regal- Beloit. Can you explain a little bit in terms

14 of what our exposure is relative to certification of

15 the efficiency in the --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I'm

17 the one signing the certification to DOE.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is nothing on the motor

19 manufacturer. It is purely on the HVAC.

20 MS. MEYERS: We would be happy to share that

21 burden, however, should you wish.

22 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is Malinowski again.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

162

1 If from the motor side on totally enclosed motors, if

2 we were to assume the same error flow that we had with

3 our TEFC fan on an air over design, would that be

4 something that we could all agree on as a standard? Or

5 do we need to test it in users' airflow?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't need to be a user

7 airflow. It does need to be standardized, though.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

9 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yep. Got you.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So can all of you on the

11 phone agree?

12 MR. MALINOWSKI: Let us take this back and

13 discuss it, Ashley.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

15 MR. MALINOWSKI: Can we get you an answer in

16 a week? A few days?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: A little less time, if

18 possible, please.

19 MR. MALINOWSKI: End of the week? We've got

20 a conference call tomorrow. We've got a conference

21 call scheduled tomorrow to talk about our testing NOPR.

22 So we could bring this up during that call.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

163

1 (Simultaneous discussion.)

2 MR. WHITWELL: So there is a standardized

3 test for air over motors. So the proposal is to use

4 that to rate the ECMs and the PSCs, or not rate, to

5 provide data to the manufacturers.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're going to talk about a

7 comparable method for those motors that currently don't

8 have an industry agreed-upon test method. Everyone is

9 doing it slightly differently. They are going to see

10 if they can talk -- since they have no exposure, if

11 they can talk about a standardized method for

12 comparability. Otherwise, for full load efficiency,

13 they can provide you the data.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that -- so end of the week

16 okay? I mean, we voted, so it is what it is.

17 MR. AMRANE: We voted. It doesn't matter,

18 then.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the answer is yes. Please

20 provide it to us by Friday, if possible.

21 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'd just like

22 to thank the --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

164

1 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger Daugherty.

2 MR. SACHS: Go ahead, Roger.

3 MR. DAUGHERTY: I'd just like it to be clear,

4 then, when you move to a higher static pressure and put

5 on a higher horsepower motor, you are going to assume

6 that that motor at the higher static pressure will

7 always be running at its full load rated condition. Is

8 that correct?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

10 MR. RIVEST: For the purposes of this

11 exercise, yes.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We all acknowledge what -- it

13 is what it is.

14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. There is a

15 certain level of abstract --

16 MR. DAUGHERTY: I'm trying to relate to the

17 issue of not having efficiency changing, but typically,

18 at least in the standard motors, when you go from a

19 three horsepower motor to a five horsepower, inherent

20 in that is an increase in efficiency. So the five

21 horsepower runs at a higher efficiency than a three

22 horsepower at full load. That's just the way they're
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

165

1 rated.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

3 MR. DAUGHERTY: And then the same when you

4 step up to a seven horsepower. So you're not trying to

5 look for a five horsepower motor that has the

6 efficiency of the three horsepower motor, you're

7 looking for a five horsepower that has a higher

8 efficiency. Is that right?

9 MR. RIVEST: Yes. The way we described it is

10 relative efficiency and --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the hard number is

12 different. Yeah.

13 MR. RIVEST: Right. And now that's where --

14 you know, that's where things get tricky with the -

15 with drawing that curve.

16 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is Malinowski again.

17 What you need to be mindful is let's say your base unit

18 is using a premium efficient motor.

19 MR. RIVEST: Yes.

20 MR. MALINOWSKI: Then, you must stay in, you

21 know, the scope of a larger premium efficient motor.

22 You really shouldn't go down and use an energy
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

166

1 efficient, you know --

2 MS. MEYERS: We got that.

3 MR. MALINOWSKI: -- motor of a larger size.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: We're shaking our head. We're

5 agreeing. We're shaking our head.

6 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger. I thought

7 earlier you said that you could go to a lower

8 efficiency motor by making changes in other components.

9 MR. RIVEST: No. I said that the decision --

10 this is Mike Rivest. I said that in -- so they create

11 an air conditioner with a small motor which has to

12 achieve the minimum efficiency standard. And the

13 manufacturers make tradeoffs in that design, which may

14 result in an efficient motor or an inefficient motor.

15 And that's the level of efficiency for motors that then

16 becomes the rule for the other motors in that product

17 grouping.

18 So like you said, if they design their

19 certification unit with a premium -- a NEMA premium

20 motor, they will have to buy premium NEMA motors for

21 all other products that they have in that product

22 grouping. So the two -- three horsepower, five
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

167

1 horsepower, seven horsepower, they will all have to be

2 NEMA premium. But they don't have to do that. They

3 can buy a motor and certify their product as a 10 EER

4 using just an efficient motor by making other

5 components in that certification unit more efficient.

6 So that -- the tradeoff that they do is in

7 the certification unit. Once they have established

8 that level, it -- that level for the motor gets

9 translated to the other units.

10 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly.

11 MR. RIVEST: And those other units are never

12 tested for EER again, and they never will be.

13 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I

14 think the real problem is going to be when we get down

15 into the fractional -- where the base unit as a

16 fractional horsepower motor, and we may be moving up

17 into an integral horsepower motor at the high end.

18 That's where we're really concerned because the

19 fractional horsepowers are the ones that are -- the

20 not-rated motors, as I understand it.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep.

22 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is John Malinowski.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

168

1 There is not a NEMA standard for fractionals, but they

2 are marked with efficiency on them. So you can look at

3 what the efficiency of that motor is and look in the

4 respective 1211 or 1212 on three phase. Single phase

5 is a different story. The only single phase motors

6 that have published efficiency ratings are those

7 covered by the DOE small motor rule, and those are open

8 motors, single and three phase, one quarter through

9 three horsepower, and two digit frame sizes.

10 But I expect that all of you will be working

11 with your respective motor suppliers, and they can do

12 due diligence to provide you with that larger motor

13 that exceeds the efficiency of the smaller one you're

14 replacing.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: In theory, that sounds great.

16 So if you guys could talk about it tomorrow on your

17 conference call, while you discuss how great the test

18 procedure NOPR was, we look forward to hearing back

19 from you on Friday.

20 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger again. But

21 just to be clear, you're telling me that once a base

22 model is designed with a certain characteristic motor,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

169

1 relative to its efficiency level, that to go to a

2 higher static pressure system and put on a higher

3 horsepower rated motor, the system's designer no longer

4 has the option to design what he might consider to be

5 an optimized system for some purpose other than just

6 motor efficiency. He is actually being required to use

7 a motor of an efficiency classification that is

8 equivalent to the base model.

9 MR. WHITWELL: No, that's incorrect. The

10 manufacturer has the option -- always has the option to

11 design a different system for the higher static. But

12 we want to have the option to be able to just change

13 the motor to achieve that higher static, and for that

14 we need this efficiency information.

15 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. We

16 will be restricted on the motor efficiency at those

17 higher statics by being no less efficient than the base

18 model, however we choose to define that.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: But they can always elect to

20 have multiple base models at higher statics if they

21 want to do design changes and/or, you know, to use

22 different types of motors at different efficiencies.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

170

1 What we're doing is providing them the flexibility for

2 either/or option, and they elect the choice. This was

3 their --

4 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger. But by "no

5 less efficient" --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I don't think this is

7 something necessarily that you need to be worried

8 about. I mean, I do appreciate the concerns, but this

9 is --

10 MR. DAUGHERTY: I guess we were trying to see

11 whether or not what you were trying to need is

12 efficiency levels at other than rated full load

13 efficiency.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, we do not. We only need

15 full load efficiency for everything.

16 MR. DAUGHERTY: Okay.

17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs from ACEEE.

18 And I want to thank you guys for the presentation. It

19 certified clarified a lot for me. And I hope we have

20 transmitted that this whole ratings thing with a single

21 point is really a sort of Kabuki dance we are all

22 addicted to.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

171

1 But having said that, your comments about

2 efficiency for an equivalent design naturally

3 increasing with size leaves me to ask the question

4 whether DOE might simplify things for some classes by

5 requiring that the basic model group be established

6 with the smallest motor offered for sale, which would

7 offer some assurance that unless you move from that

8 good motor to a shaded pole for the higher static,

9 which seems pretty unlikely, that you are always going

10 to have a fairly easy job of establishing that you have

11 no lower efficiency with that oversized motor.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Harvey, we're not negotiating

13 motors here.

14 MR. SACHS: The question --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: They get to negotiate it on

16 their own.

17 MR. SACHS: The question was not motors, but

18 whether this is part -- the size -- the minimum --

19 whether the basic model group should be specified with

20 the smallest capacity, lowest ESP motor, that will be

21 offered in that product group. If it ain't going to

22 make life easier, don't do it.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

172

1 MR. RIVEST: I mean, it has to be the one

2 that is designed for the test procedure, right? So

3 whatever motor that is.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So I think we

5 have a path forward. So I guess, Alex, will the NEMA

6 stuff come from you, the motor manufacturers?

7 MR. BOESENBERG: Yes.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or is it going to come from

9 someone else on the motors technical team for NEMA?

10 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex. I will

11 provide that response.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So we look forward --

13 we appreciate you guys all jumping on the phone so

14 quickly and helping us with this. This has been an

15 issue that the Department and the HVAC manufacturers

16 have been discussing for several weeks now, and we

17 really appreciate the help. So we look forward to

18 hearing from you on Friday.

19 MR. MALINOWSKI: Okay. Thanks, Ashley.

20 MR. BOESENBERG: Great. Thank you. Now, get

21 to work on the 38 pages of complements to the test

22 NOPR.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

173

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. That's really

2 nice of you.

3 And I have a feeling in the meantime the HVAC

4 manufacturers will be sending all of you requests for

5 nominal full load efficiencies.

6 MR. BOESENBERG: You can send those directly

7 to the manufacturers.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. BOESENBERG: Bye-bye.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Bye. Do we have anything

12 else you want to discuss today, or do we have more

13 breakout sessions, or do we want to just break and come

14 back tomorrow? It's 5:00 now. We've been going since

15 8:30. We have made some pretty good progress today.

16 One big issue semi-solved.

17 Break until tomorrow morning? Because it's

18 8:30 again tomorrow morning. Where are we tomorrow,

19 Jeremiah? Oh, yeah, we're back in my office.

20 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

21 You know, we have proposed some things on the

22 verification side, but we have not had any feedback,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

174

1 and we understand there might be feedback. Would it

2 make sense to give us a little feedback now, so we can

3 think about it tonight and then be charged up tomorrow?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you working tonight?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: I am, but it's a conference

6 call from my --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. That's more up to you

8 guys. It might be worthwhile to have -- it's up to

9 you. As like half of the room packed up their stuff.

10 Karen is looking at me with really evil eyes right now.

11 MR. DOPPEL: This is -- I mean, it's mostly

12 HVAC that is left here. Ashley said here was some

13 potential feedback.

14 (Simultaneous discussion.)

15 MR. EISNER: All right. We're going off the

16 record for a few minutes to figure out what we do next.

17 (Brief recess.)

18 MR. EISNER: All right. So we will end the

19 meeting for today, reconvene tomorrow at 8:30 at 750

20 L'Enfant Plaza. 950. Yeah, there is a room number.

21 Hold on. I'll give everybody the information in a

22 second.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

175

1 Tomorrow's meeting is at 950 L'Enfant Plaza,

2 Room 6097, 98, and 99. Starts at 8:30. We're supposed

3 to go until 6:00.

4 (Whereupon, at 5:09 p.m., the proceedings

5 were adjourned.)

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
Capital Reporting Company 

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013 

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 I, CHRISTINE ALLEN, the Court Reporter before 

3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

10 interest in this proceeding. 

11 

12 

13 

14 E \:2/,(\ \S 

15 ! \ 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

C~~ CH RISTINE Mt.-

~ 

Digital Court Reporter 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 

176 
Capital Reporting Company 

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013 

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 I, LISA SIKES, hereby certify that I am not 

3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 

4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 

5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

8 proceeding. 

9 

10 

11 

12 

E \=b() \ \-=b 

13 , Date 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

LIS lJ&. IKES S:L~ Transcriptionist 

(866) 448 - DE PO 

www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 

177 
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 1

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

1

1 12:4 21:11

1:00 95:7,16

10 146:5 147:18

156:18 167:3

100 43:16,17 70:17

142:3

1000 1:13

1090 90:3

10-ton 152:3

112 159:20

112-B 135:17

136:11

114 159:19,20

12 46:7,19

47:11,21

48:16,22 51:11

53:22 54:3,5

12/12/12/11

138:12

12/18 49:3

12/31 55:14

12/31/13 59:8

12:01 95:21

1200 44:3

1211 156:5 168:4

1212 156:6 168:4

14 47:21

15 12:3 35:10,13

41:15 42:3

45:10,16

49:4,6,8 54:1

17 41:22

17025 109:7 110:6

17065 109:6 110:6

18 34:7,8 37:4,6

38:9,20 46:8

47:12 51:9 53:22

54:3,18,21

1970s 149:21

2

2.5 36:1,3,5 88:11

20 63:12 107:1

146:5 147:18

2001 42:1

2005 29:19 41:20

42:7

2007 41:21 42:2

45:3

2-0-0-7 45:3

2009 21:11

2010 21:10,12 45:2

2011 21:15,16

43:13

2012 43:13

2013 1:16

20585 1:14

25 29:22 50:2

27 1:16

3

3 132:22 135:9

140:4

3:12 95:21

3:55 129:20

30 160:9

31st 56:6,11 58:2

59:15 60:19

121:19 127:7

38 172:21

3-digit 133:2

136:16 138:22

3-phase 138:7

140:17

4

4 12:3

4:00 96:9 121:1

128:11,16,19

129:13

4:09 129:20

46 127:14

48 132:19,20

134:11

135:11,16

136:1,22 138:6

139:3

48/56 138:11

5

5:00 173:14

5:09 175:4

50/50 78:9

56 132:21 133:2,17

135:9 136:15

138:6,19,20,22

139:4,11,13,18,2

2 140:4 159:11

58 127:14 139:3

5th 21:16

6

6 42:10

6:00 175:3

6097 175:2

62 139:3

6-pole 139:3

7

7 12:2 45:4

75 43:18

750 10:11 174:19

78 138:14,16 139:1

7E-069 95:13,14

7th 21:15

8

8:30 173:15,18

174:19 175:2

80 26:1 142:2

82 142:2

83.5 138:19

83.8 138:18 139:4

8E-089 1:12

9

9 42:5,10

9:57 1:17

90 62:20

9010 90:2

950 174:20 175:1

98 175:2

99 73:4 175:2

A

a.m 1:17

AAON 3:3 39:2,18

104:1 126:21

154:16 167:13

169:15

ability 29:5 70:2

81:15

able 8:15 86:14,17

97:11 108:9

116:7 125:12,20

134:12 136:12

139:17 151:20
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 2

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

153:2 169:12

ABMA 3:5 54:16

absence 134:2

absent 57:17

absolute 14:12

absolutely 24:12

47:14 112:20

158:2

abstain 129:12

abstaining 72:2

abstract 164:15

accelerated 51:7

accept 34:8 85:14

acceptable 109:8

accepted 32:22

accommodate 6:4

accomplishment

97:22

accordance 43:3

45:5 120:10

121:4 123:11

accounts 7:19

accurate 21:4

77:10 143:4

176:7

accurately 26:10

138:8

ACEEE 170:17

achieve 25:11

166:12 169:13

acknowledge

94:22 164:12

acknowledging

85:9

acronym 71:8

across 27:18 93:14

116:21 151:7

actions 13:13 26:4

active 19:20

actual 41:21 85:5

actually 20:21

21:10,18

25:10,20

26:19,22 39:8

44:9 50:9 53:16

62:13,15 64:8

65:21 76:18 96:2

100:17 101:4

119:12 121:2

123:10

124:10,12

132:4,8

149:11,12 150:7

169:6

add 39:19,22

65:12 144:10

added 63:9,22

64:12 119:6

addicted 170:22

adding 26:2 63:9

85:2

addition 13:4,19

102:16

additional 9:21

10:1 14:1,18

15:6 18:17 26:22

27:4 43:12 64:1

115:13

address 16:17

17:7,18 22:22

26:7,9 31:14

88:9 110:10

141:13

addresses 19:22

46:11 88:7

adjourned 175:5

advantage 45:17

49:8 145:4

adverse 58:21

59:4,11,14

60:1,2,3

advertised 64:5

ADVISORY 1:5

advocates 31:4

AEDM 7:6 9:22

13:16 33:15

36:19 44:9,14

45:1 60:8,14,19

61:2,6,8,12

AEDMs 10:15

14:10 22:9 28:18

38:16 44:7,17

46:3,21 54:11

103:17 112:3

114:20 141:19

Affairs 3:4

affect 52:8

affected 5:16

16:14

afford 72:4

against 17:2

137:22

agency 107:4

116:6

aggressive 48:14

50:8

ago 42:5 43:1 48:2

86:11

agreed 6:4 10:16

16:19 40:20

97:18 103:16

125:18,19

148:10

agreed-upon

163:8

agreeing 122:18

125:7 166:5

agreement 12:8

34:18 38:2 57:10

97:14 98:7,18,22

99:20,21 100:9

106:21 113:16

114:2

ahead 55:18 164:2

AHRI 2:7,14

4:6,12 7:22

15:14 16:21

22:14 23:1 31:21

32:2,20 33:3,11

40:17 44:2 50:20

56:7 57:18 60:6

66:5 67:9,14

68:4,11 69:1,5

70:12,22 71:2

72:7,15 73:2

74:10 75:1,10,12

76:9,17 77:16

81:6 82:6

83:1,10 86:12,14

87:8,12,14,21

88:21 89:13

96:15 100:19

107:10,13,17

109:5 111:15

112:21 119:5

132:17 133:6

AHRI's

74:14,15,16

111:17

ain't 171:21

air 33:6,10 39:22

132:3 134:12,22

135:4,10,11,15,1

9 136:11

137:4,6,10,12

141:1 154:18,20

156:9 159:5,8,22

160:3 161:9,10
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 3

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

162:3 163:3

166:11

Air-Conditioning

2:6,11

air-cooled 39:19

airflow 149:14

162:5,7

air-over 132:5

133:8,11,14

134:3,19 135:7

136:12 137:14

138:1 141:4

Alex 2:12

130:4,7,14 131:4

132:12 134:5

172:5,10

algorithm 134:16

Allen 1:20

176:2,15

Alliance 4:7

allow 77:18 103:10

120:9

allowed 75:19

84:11

allowing 28:14

149:12

alluded 62:14

already 6:17 9:22

19:19 46:2 58:9

73:12 80:3 84:20

85:14 90:2

124:19

alternate 37:14

alternative

57:16,17 66:22

69:4 123:4

am 16:14 17:1

18:5 19:10 23:15

24:10,13 25:1

26:18 29:9 34:1

42:12 47:17

48:20 56:16 57:4

61:4,11 67:3,10

68:1,7,8 70:4

74:3 75:16

76:6,7,15 81:4

83:17 84:2 93:8

94:4 98:2

103:5,7 109:4

117:2 121:10

138:1 145:3

155:8 174:5

176:7 177:2

178:2

ambient 43:4,6

American 4:2 78:3

among 107:6

amount 17:3 57:2

149:13

Amrane 2:6 15:14

40:17,20 41:9,11

50:20 51:5 52:6

56:7,18,22

57:18,22 67:8,20

72:7,11,14 73:11

74:3 75:6,9

82:15,17 83:10

87:12 119:5,16

163:17

analogue 109:5,6

Analyst 2:16

anchor 103:11

and/or 63:20

169:21

anecdotal 50:15

51:15

announce 131:2

annual 106:1

116:19

annually 11:6,9,18

12:4,5,8

answer 141:7

159:2 162:15

163:19

anybody 35:16

36:2 40:15

50:12,15 54:14

55:6,7,11 67:15

107:8 111:12

114:10

129:10,12

anyone 59:13

80:12 132:6

anything 17:21

18:10 26:13 35:8

47:7 51:2 54:15

64:10 65:18

79:10 84:5

107:12,19

129:17 147:21

173:11

anyway 50:22

70:16 83:17

124:15

Anyways 119:21

anywhere 19:12

48:15

appear 68:12

appeared 151:18

appears 55:5

APPLIANCE 1:4

appliances 105:20

application 128:2

135:3

applications 55:1

122:20 127:16

131:13

applied 88:10

113:8 146:4

154:20

applies 73:1 75:14

88:8 159:5

apply 72:8 155:4

appreciate 31:3

69:22 76:12 89:8

110:14 117:9

142:8 170:8

172:13,17

appreciation 95:2

approach 24:3,16

66:21 92:9

approaches

66:14,22 67:1

appropriate 77:9

119:13

approval 66:11

approvals 126:8

approve 53:18

56:3

approved 69:17

83:5 127:4

April 48:4

area 81:19 96:22

103:8

areas 7:2 56:1

97:19 114:5

aren't 124:3

arguing 110:2

argument 70:20

Aris 3:15

Armstrong 2:8

35:1 94:3

118:17,21

119:1,20 120:2

122:10,14,16

123:1,21 124:14
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 4

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

125:7,22

126:3,11,14,19

127:6 128:18,21

129:15

130:7,9,11,13,17

,21 131:3 132:12

133:22 134:8

141:15 142:17

143:5,12

150:7,11 151:14

153:4,7 154:13

155:17

157:14,18

158:15,20

160:4,13

161:3,18

162:6,10,14,17

163:6,15,19

164:9,12

165:2,11 168:15

169:19 170:6,14

172:4,8,12

173:1,8,11

174:4,7

arrangement

109:19

articles 17:12

Ashley 2:8 27:21

44:13 52:1

118:14,16

122:11 133:21

142:16 144:20

161:12 162:13

172:19 174:12

ASHRAE 86:17

aspect 66:17

aspects 55:20

68:11 103:7

ASRAC 2:15 7:6

33:16 55:22

56:1,2 57:13

60:15 61:2,12

91:22 107:3

121:17 124:2

126:6,10,22

127:1,4

assessment 27:2

69:19

assigned 36:3

assisted 86:18

associated 32:16

association 33:11

66:9,18

association's

66:20

assume 41:14 68:2

88:17 162:2

164:5

assumed 53:7

133:13

assuming 56:2

57:22 61:6,8

126:7 136:10

assumption

53:2,11 57:19

133:7

assumptions 137:4

147:6

assurance 17:1,10

79:18 123:15

146:19 171:7

assure 145:1 152:7

assured 57:4 73:5

attaching 155:11

attainable 147:9

attainments 29:7

attention 5:3 66:2

attitude 28:2

audit 63:13,20,21

August 1:16

authority 102:2,11

108:14,15

availability 28:13

152:19

available 8:4,7

83:16,19

143:7,9,15,16,20

145:11,15

146:8,12 149:5

150:1 153:12

158:7

Avenue 1:13

average 43:4,6

avoiding 105:17

aware 6:16,20

22:20 34:1

awareness 19:21

away 28:9 30:11

80:10

B

backed 20:18

backwards 30:8

bad 17:11 28:10

124:11

balance 9:13

balanced 80:15

Baldor 2:20 3:14

140:9 145:7

149:19 155:20

Ballo 2:9 52:22

58:13,19 88:6

balls 81:10

bands 146:5

153:13 160:7

barely 87:8

Barhydt 2:10 6:13

8:8,18 9:4,7

14:14 15:21

19:13,16 33:14

34:14,17,20

35:3,6 36:13,16

37:18 40:5,13,19

41:1,8,10,12

42:6,22

44:5,15,17,19,22

45:4 49:3

52:5,9,13 53:6

54:9,21 55:17

56:15

57:6,9,15,21

58:11,16

60:11,13

61:1,6,11,15,18,

22 62:6,13 63:6

65:15,21

71:10,13 74:7,14

75:3 83:7 91:7

93:16 94:7,17,20

95:13 102:4,7

104:5,7 110:19

117:14,18

118:7,11,19

barrier 66:13

77:14

barriers 68:2

barring 58:20

base 31:17 85:16

120:9,14 121:8

122:19,21 123:6

124:9,10,11,16

125:9,15 127:15

129:5

131:8,11,19

139:6 144:3

147:15 151:6,8

165:17 167:15

168:21

169:8,17,20

based 36:18 38:16
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 5

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

49:18 70:21 83:1

100:14 110:21

132:16 156:4

157:4

baseline 20:4

basic 22:13,15,17

23:18 31:18,19

32:7,14 33:17,21

34:4 40:21 45:15

63:13 81:7 83:4

104:8,12

116:13,15

121:16 132:17

133:6,12 154:5

171:5,19

basically 9:16

10:22 12:22 14:4

31:20 38:2 51:14

101:10 114:22

120:8 123:18

129:9 134:19

142:7

basis 29:17 56:16

90:15 114:21

152:14 154:14

bat 138:20

Bauman 2:11 9:10

14:20 43:10 45:7

52:11 54:12

82:16,18 114:8

become 73:9

becomes 13:8

103:11 125:15

143:12 166:16

begin 53:4 130:19

beginning 19:4

143:14

behalf 140:21

behind 20:15

22:4,8 25:4

77:19 79:18

believe 6:1 31:17

32:6 41:17 43:14

48:15 68:6 88:13

111:8 112:13

119:18 125:9

151:21

believed 119:8

Beloit 3:13 130:15

161:13

bend 96:15

beneficial 24:10

best 6:2 35:13

106:14 108:20

142:10 148:20

better 17:10,21

25:11,15,17

43:11 48:4 77:11

78:9 122:21

142:1 143:4,10

144:3,7 146:18

148:13 150:22

151:1,2,8 152:7

better-performing

131:17

beyond 66:13

68:13 84:5 100:4

103:16 111:4

158:16

bigger 155:5,8

biggest 97:9

Bill 4:12 71:1

109:2

bills 19:1

Bill's 69:3

bit 12:21 14:22

24:2 27:5 56:14

74:8 121:22

131:5 133:5

138:4 156:7

160:3,4 161:13

blast 6:21 7:17 8:9

blasts 6:19 48:10

blowing 132:3

board 45:16 93:14

107:15

boat 114:5

Bob 37:11 118:3

127:9 135:2

bodies 5:7 6:10

Boesenberg 2:12

130:4,8

172:7,10,20

173:6,10

boiler 17:14

75:11,13 100:21

101:18,19

105:17 107:11

111:21

112:17,18 113:2

boilers 24:1 33:18

35:20 37:8,9

54:17 76:3 88:11

95:9,11 96:10

99:11,12,15,16

101:7,8

111:14,18

112:18

113:6,8,10

booked 47:22

Boteler 2:13

156:12 159:1

160:7,11

bottom 87:2 148:1

bow 90:21

box 90:21 91:3

bracketed 125:21

brackets 126:12

brand 67:3 68:4

branded 39:11

break 5:21 11:22

62:2 69:10 94:8

95:6,7 98:3

99:18 100:4

129:16 135:12

136:17

155:15,16

173:13,17

breakdown 53:22

breaking 31:12

breakout 23:22

31:11 91:1 99:12

104:22 122:12

173:13

breakouts 62:1,3

breakpoint 36:8

breakpoints 35:19

breaks 100:13,14

Brian 3:2 65:2,17

70:8 88:15 89:7

Brian's 76:12

brief 95:10 174:17

bring 97:21

100:20 113:3

162:22

bringing 34:16

brings 89:14

broad 76:19

broke 91:10

Brooks 111:7

brought 9:11

82:20 102:17

116:12

BTU 105:19
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 6

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

109:16

BTUs 36:6 100:1

102:13 105:22

111:19 113:1

budget 70:2

build 11:20 64:2

101:11,13

building 1:12

90:15 105:3

114:15

build-to-stock

92:20

built 105:1,2

146:20

built-to 115:10

built-to-stock

115:10

bullets 63:22

burden 10:10

12:11 13:21 14:4

22:11 24:21 25:9

26:3,14 27:5

33:1 38:13 44:8

69:21 84:16

115:2 161:21

burdens 9:21 25:1

burdensome 9:18

business 23:17

26:12 67:5 80:5

84:1 90:12

buy 161:6 166:20

167:3

buying 51:17

153:16

Bye 173:11

Bye-bye 173:10

C

cabinet-limited

39:14

Calabrese 2:14

calculation 145:14

California 29:19

41:22 59:18

capable 83:13

capacitor-type

132:18

capacity 105:8

171:20

Capital 1:21

cap-run-type

133:17

cap-start 133:17

captured 106:4

cards 45:9

care 81:18 90:18

150:14

carefully 27:7

Carrier 4:13 37:12

39:8 127:10

135:3

carve 113:5

case 12:17 68:2

72:8 75:15

78:14,21 103:11

107:13 117:2

123:13 145:12

cases 10:9 39:16

150:19,20

catalogue 64:5

categories 44:12

113:18 116:5

category 31:12

44:9 75:6,7

113:16

cause 16:12

cautiously 115:20

caveat 126:9,11,15

caveats 125:21

126:12

CCE 36:21

CCMS 57:3

ceiling 144:8

cert 124:5

certain 23:5,8

90:16,20 99:12

102:12 108:8

131:9 154:18

164:15 168:22

certainly 103:7

107:19 117:2

145:15 146:21

certainty 20:12,13

21:3,6

CERTIFICATE

176:1 177:1

178:1

certification 1:6

18:21 19:20

20:1,5,6,16

21:7,9 32:14

34:1,3 35:4

52:10,16,21

53:2,4,9,12

60:13 61:9,13

67:12,13 68:12

70:13 71:2 76:10

83:15 93:12

121:17 124:15

146:11

161:14,17

166:19 167:5,7

certification/

verification 32:3

certified 13:12

15:22 63:11

65:7,10 68:5

72:9,17 75:18,20

76:5 80:9

104:7,12 148:8

170:19

certify 15:19 19:17

21:18 22:21

52:11,12 72:4,19

73:16 75:12

80:2,3 88:11

124:16 154:22

158:5 167:3

176:4 177:2

178:2

certify-all 71:21

72:8

73:1,18,19,21

81:16 84:11 88:8

certifying 19:20

25:7 93:9 144:22

158:8,9

cetera 124:5 146:6

CFM 141:3

challenge 50:1,2

89:4

chance 5:9 111:16

change 17:8 18:20

19:1 50:22 51:2

52:7 60:20

128:22 169:12

changed 17:3

145:2 148:20

changes 16:15

17:18 18:20

36:9,19 67:21

166:8 169:21

changing 59:15

164:17

characteristic
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 7

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

102:19 168:22

charge 83:22

charged 174:3

Charles 3:7

Charlie 29:13 33:8

41:17 42:14

43:11,21 44:6,11

45:21 46:9,16,18

47:9 48:14,19

49:22

chart 37:1 53:22

55:5 98:3 108:6

charter 31:1

charts 126:10

cheat 51:1

cheating 51:1

check 7:19 80:8

checked 48:1

checking 13:9

40:11

checks 13:9

cheering 29:10

cherry 78:21

chocolate 78:20

choice 82:8 83:16

148:2 170:2

choices 82:12

choose 73:7

147:21 169:18

Christine 1:20

176:2,15

claim 64:6,12

78:17

clarification 82:21

109:2

clarified 170:19

clarify 107:16

121:1

clarity 15:20 20:3

89:2 123:10

class 75:18,20 82:1

84:7 88:10 103:1

116:16,17,19

134:21

classes 10:17

11:2,5,9,18,19,2

0 37:22 46:2

92:19 171:4

classification

169:7

classify 38:12

49:16

clause 89:3

clear 30:12 79:22

88:4 116:20,22

128:10 164:3

168:21

clearly 118:8

Cleaver 111:6

Cleaver-Brooks

3:18

client 104:20

climb 87:4

close 10:20 30:5,8

68:7 96:1 137:9

142:4,12 153:14

160:5,6,8

closed 10:20,21,22

46:3,5 47:11

closer 70:17

clouded 97:14

club 85:1

Co 3:17

coastal 28:10

Cohen 58:16

coils 28:10

coin 9:3 86:22

cold 136:19

collectively 103:4

column 64:15

combinations

39:14 142:6

combined 91:17

combustion 36:9

comes 13:10 29:3

86:3 94:12 161:4

comfortable 12:9

69:8 94:1 122:2

coming 5:13 18:10

23:12 35:1

78:12,16 92:12

131:10 142:1,14

146:19

comment 5:22

30:20 31:14

58:21 59:4,11,14

60:1,2,3 64:14

76:12 80:14

81:11,19 92:1

commentary 69:3

commented 31:5

comments 7:8 8:22

16:6 30:13,15

33:13 36:15 49:1

54:6 61:20

71:3,5,17 81:4

106:7 171:1

commerce 25:18

28:8 31:16 32:7

68:14 77:12

124:10 129:7

commercial 1:6

17:14 19:19

26:17,20 27:3

30:13 33:5,10

34:7,9 37:8

62:21 63:1 64:18

65:19 67:5 69:18

82:6 85:4 86:20

88:17 100:21

120:6 121:2

131:8,11,20

132:9,16 158:21

commercially

85:21

commit 61:16

commitment

121:13 131:15

committed 57:15

58:11

committee 1:5

126:22 127:2

142:9 147:2

committing 120:7

122:3

123:2,3,14,22

124:1 125:1

129:1,3

common 101:1

102:19

communications

31:6

companies 17:19

42:13,16 48:12

85:9

company 1:21

5:15 16:19

18:12,21

77:4,7,14

87:3,6,7 89:1

115:1 140:21

145:7

comparability
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 8

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

163:12

comparable 123:8

163:7

compare 90:3

127:20 137:20

139:1,2 143:18

153:2

compared

152:16,17,20

comparison

137:22 152:3,12

154:4,5,15

compete 67:1

competing 17:1

competitive 51:17

competitors

29:17,20 30:1

50:3

complaining 99:21

complements

172:21

complete 6:22

48:5 177:7 178:7

completed 55:21

completely 13:1

97:20 104:9

compliance 19:17

25:17 31:20 32:7

50:9 52:15,21

59:8,15 124:5

compliant 20:22

31:16 52:20

complicate 157:3

comply 18:12

77:22 78:13

components 166:8

167:5

compromise

107:19,20

108:4,13

compromised

51:13

concentrate

97:2,16

concept 83:8

120:5,7,16

121:12 122:3

123:2,22 125:4

127:3 153:12

concern 37:12

38:7 45:12 47:4

49:5 71:18 79:4

81:12 83:18,21

84:1,9 88:9

concerned 42:13

51:21 68:1 84:2

167:18

concerns 6:20

7:8,11 10:6

37:14 41:13

56:15 66:6 88:7

170:8

concession 28:16

concessions 85:15

concluded 97:14

concluding 65:4

71:3

condition 154:19

155:3,12 164:7

conditioner

166:11

conditioning 33:6

154:18,20

conditions

43:4,6,22 44:3

90:19 158:7

conduct 100:17

conducted 110:1

conference 162:20

168:17 174:5

confidence 80:15

confirm 107:10

confused 61:5 74:3

confusion 45:13

47:3 112:16

Congress 28:17

41:20

cons 98:9,10

consensus 24:5

42:21 57:11,20

58:1 59:1 92:12

93:17 105:17,21

106:22 107:6

108:9 111:9

consequences 84:3

114:16

consider 49:22

92:14 103:19

169:4

consideration

42:19

considerations

103:9 105:18

119:14

considered 14:12

49:12

consistent 49:7

116:4

Consulting 2:3

consumers 16:3

17:15

consumption

12:19 103:3

105:9

contact 7:8 59:18

contained 10:20

11:21 41:19 51:8

cont'd 3:1 4:1

context 23:4 88:17

continue 30:9 31:9

continuing 29:19

continuous 26:8

contracts 160:21

contributors 103:5

control 18:17

110:7 137:11

conversation

153:11

convinced 103:8

coo 136:10

cool 137:11

cooled 40:1

cooled/evapcooled 39:20

cooling 3:3 141:5

copycat 93:14,20

corner 82:3

corporate 30:7

Corporation

4:4,13

correct 44:12 53:5

65:7 83:6 88:13

112:20 127:5

135:19,20

139:15,16,20

142:3 158:14

159:6,13 164:8

177:7 178:6

correctly 78:8

119:19 138:2

correlation 136:18

137:12
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 9

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

cost 16:13,17

17:18 18:12 26:5

28:12,14 29:1

32:16 85:2

costing 17:15

costs 70:21 84:5

Council 4:2

count 22:17,18

111:17

couple 8:2 14:7

27:11 46:18 70:9

81:10 89:16

102:15 156:3

course 34:10 83:15

court 8:4

176:1,2,15

177:3,5 178:3,5

courts 81:11

cover 10:22

112:10

covered 22:19

38:5 41:14 149:3

168:7

covers 133:20

134:1

CRAC 38:1 39:3

40:3,9 41:1,4

82:7

CRACs 40:14

CRE 9:4 10:17

22:9 33:18 35:8

41:15 45:17

49:19 53:21

71:18 72:21 73:3

88:8 90:1 93:10

94:1,12,13 114:7

cream 43:14

create 81:18 82:10

147:10 166:10

created 105:19

creating 102:10

113:15

criteria 98:4,6

102:12,16

critical 96:21

cross 90:1 91:6

125:6

CSA 4:5

cuff 89:9

cumulatively

102:22

cup 29:9

curious 65:18

current 53:22

87:20 102:8

107:12 124:20

128:4

currently 70:11

74:14 84:5 89:16

153:19 161:7

163:7

curve 135:13

136:17 146:17

155:18 165:15

curves 137:17

custom 106:5

custom-built

92:20

customer 64:6

103:12

customers 102:22

147:11

customer's 103:8

customized 117:3

cycles 91:16

Cymbalsky 2:15

55:10 118:5

D

D.C 1:14

Daikin 3:11

Dan 58:16

dance 170:21

Dane 2:19 9:6,8

35:9 42:11 48:6

49:6 50:11 54:4

58:18 71:16

72:16 73:3

93:4,22 94:4,16

data 18:2,18

20:18,20 21:22

22:4,8 25:4,19

46:9 51:16

127:17 128:3

133:1,8,10,13

134:2 135:5,8

136:9,19

137:9,12 142:22

143:2,7,9,15,20

144:17

145:10,11,17

146:10,16,22

148:21 149:4,6

153:10 161:6

163:5,13

database 104:4

date 21:11 51:7

53:3,4 55:14

56:6,11 57:5

58:2,22 59:8,15

60:20,21 121:17

124:5 127:7

177:13 178:12

dates 35:4 36:18

53:1 56:20 60:22

Daugherty 2:20

141:13 149:18

150:9 151:11

154:3,14

164:1,3,16 165:3

166:6 168:20

170:4,10,16

Dave 71:15

David 2:14

DAVP 63:2

71:10,11 73:20

74:12 75:19 76:2

81:13,14,16,18

82:9,10,14,21,22

83:13,14,17,19,2

2 84:7,11 85:7

88:19,20

DAVPs 73:21 76:7

84:1 86:4

DAVP's 76:5

81:22

day 23:9 25:15

26:12 29:8 43:1

days 162:16

day-to-day 90:15

dead 5:7

deadline 21:20

57:11 58:9,14,21

121:19

deal 13:16,18

19:16 20:4 23:6

29:4 56:5

101:9,16 110:20

143:10

dealing 93:1

dear 9:7,8

debate 9:20

December 56:5,11

58:2 59:15 60:19

121:19 127:6

decide 39:1 72:1
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 10

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

107:4,15 150:4

decided 13:1

137:21

decision 37:17

151:13 166:9

decisions 25:13

98:12 116:7

deficiency 64:6,12

define 17:22 22:14

58:18 139:6

169:18

defined 82:6

133:18 134:20

138:11

defining 38:5

104:15

definite 120:19

122:4 127:14,17

132:1 133:4

134:4 139:13

definitely 24:13

74:1 115:7

definition 14:8

40:2 75:8 82:1

84:8,10 101:5

105:14 114:17

definitions 33:17

40:21 64:1 90:10

definitive 141:17

142:10

Degitsz 2:21

40:7,11,22

degrees 43:17,18

delayed 66:21

demand 155:11

demonstrate

148:12

demonstration

148:15

Department

1:1,11 2:8,10,17

3:21 20:13,17

21:2,20 22:15

25:3 28:7,12

30:22 31:3,6

65:20 69:16

75:17 82:1

92:1,3,14 118:2

120:6 121:14

126:6 129:8

172:15

Departmentapproved 26:21

68:22 93:13

Departmentauthorized 81:3

Department's 23:9

81:7 110:16

depend 49:15

depending 134:15

depends 61:1

138:17

Derek 3:4

deriving 146:2

derriere 29:8

described

150:10,12 165:9

describing 144:20

description 149:19

design 29:1 121:8

122:19

123:5,6,16

124:16

131:11,19 132:9

142:7 144:3,6

148:3 150:13,15

151:5,10

157:19,20 162:3

166:13,18

169:4,11,21

171:2

Designated 2:15

designed 64:5

168:22 172:2

designer 169:3

designing 147:19

designs 23:10

91:17 120:13,15

123:7 125:10,13

146:13,20 148:3

design's 125:9

desire 45:22 47:10

80:1

details 5:5

12:15,21 66:3

81:1 83:8

123:1,3 124:3,6

125:2 126:16

127:2

determination

114:19

determine 131:16

132:8

determined

101:20 122:22

develop 97:7

developed 60:22

development 3:18

91:16

Deviations 103:1

devices 106:19

devil 12:15 123:1

dialing 148:8

diameter 139:22

140:1

Diana 127:11

differ 116:17

difference 80:18

135:16,22

136:4,18 152:15

160:10

differences 24:6

81:5 111:14

117:8

different 6:14 24:3

25:8 27:21 28:2

44:1 48:19 55:19

67:17 72:14

73:16 76:18

81:11 82:8 87:1

90:2,22

91:8,11,12,13,14

,15,16,18,21

92:2,5,13,16,17,

19,21,22

93:1,18,19 94:11

100:5 101:5

102:11 104:17

116:2 118:8

121:8,22 129:3

131:13

140:15,18,19

141:7,8 142:6,14

143:1,8 145:8

147:4 148:18

151:3 153:18

156:3,20 160:3,5

165:12 168:5

169:11,22

differential 138:6

differentiated

66:17 68:11 81:1

differently 93:11

116:1 159:3

163:9

difficult 25:21

68:5 92:3 99:22
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 11

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

153:1,6

difficulty 102:17

digit 132:22

135:10 168:9

Digital 176:15

dilemma 80:6

152:1

diligence 168:12

diligently 31:10

diluting 30:10

direct 58:15,18

59:3,9,14,22

directed 135:14

direction 14:6

15:15 88:13

149:7 176:6

directions 117:20

directly 72:18

173:6

directory 64:16

disabused 103:6

disagree 42:12

76:1 109:21

150:7

disagreement

35:14 106:3

114:2,3,6

disagreements

96:18

disagrees 111:12

discouraged

18:5,6 19:3,10

discovered 52:19

discuss 34:2 68:17

95:9 108:7,22

115:8,12 162:13

168:17 173:12

discussed 30:20

33:17 45:11 46:2

47:9 65:3 100:5

104:21 114:15

119:6

discussing 10:15

15:12 110:17

114:1,16 172:16

discussion 5:13

12:21 13:7

35:2,7,11,15

36:20 37:5 38:11

39:17 62:10

70:14 76:18

96:13 97:19

100:22 105:6

111:3,4

118:10,22

119:2,7 130:19

132:2 151:15

160:16 163:1

174:14

discussions 9:10

22:16 46:6 97:12

114:14 131:5,7

148:14

dispute 103:11

distinct 29:14

distinction 73:15

89:13 105:10,19

distinctions 116:8

distinctive 44:12

distribute 31:19

65:16 129:7

distributing 31:15

32:6

division 10:5,11

41:18 45:21

docket 7:5

8:8,9,10,15,17

documented 35:20

documenting 24:5

DOE 6:10 7:1

10:12 11:5,13

13:9,11

15:15,20,22

16:8,15 17:21

18:15 19:16 20:2

21:9 27:1,17,21

29:21 33:16

43:1,20 44:12

45:1,5,20 47:10

54:21 56:3,4,9

57:10,12,15 58:1

59:9,14 60:3,18

61:15 64:16 65:6

67:18 68:3 69:18

72:8,12 73:11

74:4 77:8,21,22

78:6 79:22

83:4,8 84:2,21

85:2,14 86:14

87:18,21,22

88:10 90:4,7

102:1 103:13

107:20

108:11,12,13

114:18 120:10

121:6 123:12

127:2,22 141:10

148:10 149:2

152:8 154:22

156:3 159:3

161:17 168:7

171:4

DOE-approved

53:16 71:13

DOE-prescribed

43:5

DOE's 60:15

69:15 70:2 75:8

77:10 79:13 80:6

84:8,10 104:2

dollars 17:15,20

26:1 62:20

dominant 127:20

done 6:6,9 13:17

20:22 21:19

26:13 27:18 31:3

33:18,19 42:4

43:2 45:5 46:14

62:12 79:19

113:3 117:12

127:13 143:10

door 42:9

Doppel 2:22 26:15

65:11,14 67:19

68:15,20 69:6,10

72:22 84:17 86:8

87:6,11 104:13

128:15,19

158:10 173:20

174:11

double 115:2

doubling 14:4

downstairs 121:11

drafted 126:7

dramatically 44:8

drastic 160:5

drastically 44:1

draw 76:5

drawing 165:15

drive 34:22 140:20

155:20

driven 137:10

drives 124:19

driving 154:17

drop 48:15,22

drove 154:17

ducted 41:4
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 12

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

119:12,17

ductless 86:12

87:8

due 168:12

during 5:21,22

16:12 117:15

119:7 162:22

duty 133:3,4,9

dynamometer

140:22

dyno 135:12

137:17 160:1

E

earlier 50:1 88:16

103:16 113:4

114:4,15 119:2

149:19 159:7,10

166:7

EarthJustice 2:9

52:22

ease 27:5

easier 113:1

171:22

easy 67:2 171:10

ECM 132:19

134:10,15 135:6

136:1,22

138:10,13,16,20

139:1,7 140:19

152:18,19 153:2

ECMs 159:9 163:4

Economy 4:3

edited 118:12

ED-listed 10:2

educating 27:17

educational 54:10

EER 131:10

167:3,12

EF 29:3

effect 21:13 42:5

65:5 103:3,10

effective 21:11

25:2 58:22

efficiencies 128:1

138:8 146:3

148:18 152:11

157:22 169:22

173:5

efficiency 1:2 4:7

16:3 20:8 22:3

76:20 80:16

90:18 103:15

120:14 123:17

125:9 127:17,20

128:3,5 131:18

133:8,10,13

134:2 135:5

136:9

137:1,13,15,17

138:18 139:2,7

140:6 141:17

142:10 143:1

144:1,6,14,20

145:10 148:8

149:2,4,10,15,22

150:6

151:2,3,4,12,18,

21 152:7

153:10,22 154:9

155:1

156:2,3,11,21

157:4,17 158:18

161:6,15 163:12

164:17,20,21

165:6,8,10

166:8,12,15

168:2,3,6,13

169:1,6,7,14,16

170:12,13,15

171:2,11

efficiency-wise

155:9

efficient 18:3

120:15 121:8

123:5,6 125:13

129:6 138:14,20

141:22 148:1

149:10 150:2,3

153:16 156:6,7,8

165:18,21

166:1,14 167:4,5

169:17 170:5

efforts 5:9,18 6:11

68:1 84:12

eight 10:17 11:1

28:2 111:19,21

112:11,12,22

113:17

Eisner 2:3 5:2

7:21 8:22 16:6

30:15,18 33:13

34:12,18

35:15,22

36:2,7,15,22

37:16,20 38:4

40:3,9,15 41:13

49:1,10,17 53:21

54:13 55:3,11

56:20 59:1,7,21

61:20 62:16

64:20

95:3,9,16,22

96:8,17 97:6

98:2,20 102:1,6

103:22 106:7

108:5 109:3

110:15 113:14

114:7 115:21

116:11

117:4,7,11,16,19

,21 122:22

123:19 125:18

126:9,12 128:9

129:10,16,21

130:5,18 131:1

134:5 174:15,18

either 69:19

123:12

134:16,21

143:20 147:7

154:1 156:13

either/or 170:2

elaborate 110:5

elect 169:19 170:2

Electric 2:22

140:9 149:19

elects 122:18

elegant 94:22

eliminate 59:8

else 32:13 37:19

43:18 47:12

64:10 71:1 78:19

86:7 93:10 107:2

117:15 129:17

132:7,13 172:9

173:12

else's 34:10 74:11

email 7:19 11:11

46:10

employed 176:8

employees 10:11

12:3

empty 27:9

enabling 28:19

enclosed 159:22

162:1

encompass

112:3,6

encountered 143:7

encourage 24:15

50:9
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 13

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

encouraged 23:22

24:10

energy 1:1,2,11

2:8,10,18 3:21

4:7 12:18 29:21

31:4 43:17 51:18

103:3,4 105:7

131:18 150:2

156:5 165:22

Energy-Efficient

4:2

Energy's 82:2

enforcement 23:7

27:1 69:20 120:9

enforcing 76:16

engineered

85:10,13 103:21

104:15 105:18

106:5,6

engineered-toorder 64:4,7

70:15 90:9 95:1

104:18 115:11

Engineering 3:20

145:13

engineers 124:18

144:13 151:19

157:3 161:2

enjoyed 89:15

enlist 144:4

enormous 18:20

enter 77:15 78:4

79:12

entering 77:5 89:1

entire 66:16

106:13 108:18

113:20

entirely 52:13

entity 78:2,12

entrant 79:4

entry 68:2

environments

28:11

EPACT 29:19

42:8 46:1

equal 36:12,13

85:22 122:21

125:10 131:17

148:13

equate 42:4

equipment 33:6

38:3 50:3 124:21

131:8,21 143:9

147:21,22

153:22 158:8

equitable 123:8

161:10

equivalence 70:6

equivalent 69:5

155:1 169:8

171:2

error 162:2

ESP 171:20

Especially 112:2

essential 22:5

essentially 32:19

50:5 58:19 85:11

145:4

establish 76:21

141:3 156:1,17

established 79:7

124:20 167:7

171:5

establishes 70:6

establishing

171:10

et 124:5 146:6

ETL 82:11

evaluated 66:11

evaluation 154:4

evap-cooled 40:1

evening 7:20 89:19

everybody 5:2,3,6

23:2 34:10 43:18

47:8 59:17 78:19

85:19,22 92:9

93:10 94:9 95:22

99:3 108:16

112:2 115:21

129:18,21,22

160:3 174:21

everybody's 6:6

everyone 30:22

71:20 85:7 94:15

145:10 146:19

163:8

everything 9:1

15:19,22 16:11

17:8 32:13 37:18

42:18 46:16

47:12 73:20

80:16 85:10,13

88:14 91:3 96:4

100:8 111:2

170:15

evil 174:10

evolution 28:22

exact 137:6

exactly 53:10

107:14 150:19

151:16 152:2

161:1

example 5:19

75:10 83:12

116:3 127:11,13

134:10 135:6

138:13 154:5

exceedingly 24:22

exceeds 168:13

Excel 35:5

except 17:7 37:19

41:6 55:20

excess 25:22 47:21

excluded 64:7 94:2

105:5

exclusion 129:8

Excuse 41:20

executed 82:11,12

exempt 70:16

exercise 164:11

exert 84:12

existence 20:1

63:3

existing 70:12

88:20 141:18,19

146:3

exists 83:20

expect 59:3 84:6

149:9 168:10

expectation 55:17

56:4 80:7

expectations 24:8

81:1

expensive 101:13

147:11

experience 20:9

39:12 52:20 78:5

86:21

expertise 81:19

110:11

explain 54:11

64:21 161:13
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 14

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

explained 44:14

explaining 114:4

explicitly 43:2

explore 63:14

exposure 161:14

163:10

express 95:1

expressed 6:20

45:21 110:20

extend 59:7

extended 21:20

73:7

extending 50:5

57:11

extension 57:13

58:14,21

extensive 22:16

extent 6:19 31:6

32:21 66:21

76:14 102:9

116:16

externally 137:10

extreme 51:13

65:20 70:11

eyes 174:10

F

FACILITATOR

2:2

facilities 90:16

112:22

facility 111:20

fact 9:20 10:3 13:4

52:18 77:22

78:5,15 79:5,19

83:22 99:22

102:20 112:4

142:8

fail 14:2 28:8

fails 14:3

failure

12:14,16,17

13:3,12 14:8,13

114:17 116:4

failures 63:21

fair 52:15 137:21

fairly 32:13 66:19

100:21 105:16

171:10

faith 31:2

fall 11:1,21 14:9

72:17 87:15

falling 70:14 74:22

falls 67:11 75:11

88:1

familiar 136:5

family 112:5,6,9

fan 137:10 141:1,2

142:21 145:8

149:10

156:17,19 162:3

fashion 127:18

fast 56:17,19

fault 118:4,6

favorable 38:14

features 115:22

February 48:3

federal 1:5 2:15

6:18 13:3 16:2

20:7 26:2 41:19

76:16,20,22

77:5,6,13,16

78:14 88:2

feedback 11:13

14:19 47:5

173:22

174:1,2,13

feel 21:5 30:21

31:6,19 53:21

115:19 132:13

feeling 15:1 21:3

27:16 113:11

173:3

feels 25:4

felt 27:20,21 28:2

47:12 62:12,22

FEMALE 96:7

Ferriol 3:2 65:2,17

70:8 88:15

fewer 11:5,17 12:3

field 154:21

figure 106:20

174:16

figuring 33:9

file 35:5

final 31:13

36:18,20 42:18

43:12 54:22

58:15,18,19,22

59:3,10,14,22

60:9,13 62:15

92:11 113:4

financial 176:9

finding 7:15 46:10

125:3

fine 72:1 79:8

143:16 147:18

firing 105:20

firms 68:5

first 8:16 16:10

27:8,15 36:11

49:20 55:8 70:10

76:19 77:11

81:19 119:1,3

131:19

fit 44:9 76:4 84:13

150:5

fits 84:14

five 11:8,18 12:1,4

45:6 63:18

100:1,3,7,9

102:13 105:22

109:11 111:9

112:1,4,7,8,14

113:6,7,11,18

115:1 129:17,18

150:18,22 152:5

154:6,7,9,11

155:14,16

156:17

164:19,20

165:5,7 166:22

flex 96:15

flexibility 170:1

flexible 27:22

110:21

flipped 126:17

flips 126:19

floor 95:14

flow 30:7 86:13

119:13 135:1

137:6,12 162:2

Fly 3:3 39:2,18,22

40:4,8

104:1,6,16

126:2,21 154:16

155:18 158:5

161:2 167:10,13

169:15

focus 15:17 18:18

focused 114:5

focusing 15:18,19

18:15 106:13
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 15

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

folks 11:13 53:21

54:22 61:22

footnote 37:16

38:4

forced 117:10

foregoing 176:3

foregoing/

attached 177:6

178:6

forget 99:7 112:2

Forrestal 1:12

forth 155:21

Forty 106:22

forums 6:9

forward 9:14

11:3,13 15:2,9

24:6 25:7 26:12

76:11 81:22 83:9

102:17 114:9

126:6 127:1

168:18

172:5,12,17

fractional

167:15,16,19

fractionals 168:1

frame 127:14

132:19,20,21,22

133:2,17 134:11

135:9,12,17

136:1,16,22

138:6,19,22

139:3,4,12,13,18

,22 140:4 159:11

168:9

frames 138:21

Frank 3:19 4:6

7:21,22 34:15

36:4 38:6 60:6

71:1 72:6 76:17

80:13 96:12,18

99:16 100:19

102:17 107:9,16

108:3 111:15

112:15

frankly 27:17

free 85:11 132:13

free-blow 39:15

freezers

10:18,19,21,22

42:9 43:14 46:5

Friday 163:20

168:19 172:18

front 113:20

frustrated 23:16

full 14:11 27:10

112:6 144:6

154:11,12

157:1,11,12,15,2

1 158:18 161:5

163:12 164:7,22

170:12,15 173:5

full-service 80:12

fundamentally

131:19 134:2

furnaces 37:12

future 19:6 63:3,4

83:21

G

gain 120:22

123:10

gained 17:21

gaming 105:15

gaps 125:4

gas/electric 152:3

general 99:20

100:9 101:10

113:11 114:2

120:19,21

122:17

127:15,19,21,22

131:22 133:3,9

134:4 139:19

140:5 159:13

generally 102:21

135:10,13

Geoff 54:16

Geoffrey 3:5

gets 57:12 66:10

100:15 101:11

126:16,17 167:8

getting 7:12,16

12:20 19:11 22:9

25:15 42:16

54:18 58:11

80:22 93:21

99:10 107:6

138:4

given 23:15,18

103:7 120:11

137:13 149:21

151:8 153:21

160:13

gives 16:22

20:16,19 61:2

65:19 135:15

giving 158:18

glass 42:9

global 3:4 71:5

goal 22:5 31:13

131:5

going-in 111:1

gone 14:18 22:16

52:16

Goodman 4:11

130:10

gotten 29:11 64:22

government 3:4

16:2 17:5 20:8

76:16 144:22

grab 122:2

granted 44:6

great 19:16 20:4

29:4 56:8 97:21

110:20 111:1

128:8 143:10

153:8 168:15,17

172:20

greater 21:2,5

62:21 120:15

Greenauer 3:4

ground 111:13

group 1:7 4:5 5:11

7:10 13:11 19:5

24:1 30:22 31:1

34:8 38:13 44:19

45:11 51:19 59:2

62:4 65:19 68:11

70:10 71:6 75:5

91:2,20 92:10,12

93:18 95:18

96:18 98:10,21

99:8 101:1,14,21

104:10 105:17

107:11,15

108:9,19 110:18

111:9 112:5,18

113:3,20

115:16,17

120:12 133:6,12

148:10

171:5,19,21

grouped 104:9

grouping 123:17

125:11 146:14

151:9 166:17,22
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 16

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

groupings 38:16

groups 10:7 11:14

18:22 31:5 45:15

63:14 90:22

91:1,6,10,12

94:9 95:15

115:19 116:1

132:17

guarantee 89:20

137:8

guarantees 91:5

guess 8:14 15:14

16:8 18:14 19:2

24:20 43:13,16

46:4 53:7 60:17

61:4 67:9 90:4

93:22 114:8

115:20 120:4

134:1 140:3

170:10 172:5

guidance 23:7

120:9 123:20,22

124:6

guys 21:17 46:10

48:10 64:10 72:1

140:8 141:15,18

142:14 143:15

144:13 153:7

160:14,20 161:4

168:16 170:18

172:13 174:8

H

half 11:21 15:1

27:9,10 35:21

96:1,2,3 100:6

109:15 114:9

152:6 156:18

174:9

half-full 29:9

Halley 3:5 54:16

55:2

handful 97:13

113:9

handle 130:20

handled 123:19

Handlers 33:10

handling 116:2

hands 60:15

happen 24:18

58:10 84:4 87:11

94:1 155:6

happened 27:11

happens 37:5

38:10

happy 26:16 46:22

62:16 146:21

161:20

hard 51:16 59:17

138:7 165:11

hardly 39:7

Harvey 4:2 27:6

30:21 31:15 62:6

66:1 67:7,9,10

68:15 70:8,10

72:3 75:22 78:15

80:4 81:11

88:16,21 89:7

102:15 104:2,19

108:10 163:21

164:14 170:17

171:12

Harvey's 71:5

76:19

Haseman 3:6

hat 48:7,21

haven't 14:5 17:12

46:13 83:7

101:2,19

having 19:17

20:16 28:7 38:15

69:16 76:9 94:2

110:11 114:11

125:18,19

134:12 149:4

151:14 164:17

171:1

head 43:9 166:4,5

headed 14:6

hear 23:15 30:16

38:7 47:7

108:11,16

128:16 130:9

140:9,11 145:19

heard 6:13 7:16

21:17 46:7 49:4

66:7 91:14

143:6,14 159:10

hearing 10:6 44:5

50:13 168:18

172:18

heartburn 65:20

heat 4:10 39:3

55:20 82:7

heater 17:14 24:1

29:2,3 107:11

113:2

heaters 33:18 37:8

99:17 112:19

113:9

Heating 2:6 3:3

held 121:18 122:6

124:5

Hello 145:21

help 43:19 76:10

85:17 94:15

101:18 108:9

113:15 124:18

132:7 144:5

172:17

helped 91:10

helpful 108:6

110:14

helping 172:14

helps 90:11

hereby 176:3

177:2 178:2

he's 107:17 108:10

hey 15:5 135:2

144:13

high 24:22 38:12

41:5 124:19

125:13 127:16

167:17

higher 28:14 70:2

113:6 120:12,13

122:19,20 123:7

128:2,5

131:12,16

148:19 149:10

164:4,5,6,21

165:7

169:2,11,13,17,2

0 171:8

hill 47:8 87:1,3

historically 22:10

149:15

history 56:17

63:15 66:20

hits 66:12 90:16

hitting 30:9

hold 37:19 56:12

58:3 127:7

174:21

holding 5:21

hole 84:14

holes 30:5,8
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 17

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

home 117:11

Hon 3:7 14:7

29:13 35:14

41:17 42:7 43:21

44:11,16,18,21

45:3 47:17 51:11

honest 50:18 52:12

hook 20:19

Hootman 3:8

39:5,8,11 49:15

55:13 57:2,8

58:8 62:11,18

63:8 64:13

65:8,13

74:12,18,20 75:7

82:4 87:10 94:18

117:20 118:13

120:1 122:9

124:22 126:17

128:12 136:20

137:19 139:5,8

140:12 143:11

144:10

145:20,22

151:16

160:15,18

161:1,16 162:8

166:4 167:21

171:12,15 174:5

hope 29:9 47:19

54:9 57:21 60:16

170:19

hopefully 55:22

122:16

hopes 24:8

hoping 7:17 35:10

120:22 121:13

123:9 132:6

horse 155:15,16

156:18

horsepower

120:13,15

122:20

127:21,22

131:12,16

132:22 140:2,4,5

143:3 146:9

148:19 149:13

150:17,18,22

151:1 152:4,6

154:6,7,9,10

155:14,15,16

156:19

164:5,19,21,22

165:4,5,6,7

166:22

167:1,16,17

168:9 169:3

horsepowers

167:19

hot 136:19

hour 95:15 96:1,2

106:1 111:19

HTP 23:21 35:18

71:4 80:19 81:9

huge 27:14 28:16

38:17 76:15

hundreds 116:19

hung 71:20

Hunt 3:9

130:12,16

Hurst 3:10

Hussmann 4:4

54:2

HVAC 1:6 26:17

27:3 31:22 32:4

33:19,21

34:4,7,9

37:4,10,19,22

38:9 39:4,19

40:1 49:11 55:20

57:6 62:13,21

63:1 64:18 65:19

69:18 82:6

85:4,5 86:20

88:18 94:10

95:13 104:21

116:9 117:13,15

120:7 121:2,17

124:4,17 127:8

131:8,11,14,21

132:9,16 150:12

152:9 153:15,21

158:1,8,21

161:4,19 172:15

173:3 174:12

I

ice 43:13

ICP 71:9

I'd 75:22 146:21

163:21 164:3

idea 65:4 70:1

71:19 91:11

117:3 120:5,8

128:8 131:7

145:2 153:13,18

ideas 7:11 99:6

identical 43:22

identify 111:7

134:7

identifying 102:16

IEEE 121:5

135:17,22 136:5

139:15 140:18

159:12,19 161:7

IEEE-112 137:2

140:16

I'll 8:20 9:13 10:4

19:9 54:9 57:5

58:16 68:19 91:4

115:12 174:21

illegal 17:16

I'm 17:6,20 18:14

19:3,4,6 26:7,13

34:17 43:8 54:12

65:21 67:7,8,22

69:8 72:1 74:7

81:9 89:15 96:16

98:5,20 99:1

104:16 110:3

116:5 117:1,4

130:13 136:5,18

144:8 146:1

147:20 151:3

155:4 161:16

164:16

immediately 88:5

impact 23:17 85:5

impasse 96:14

impede 77:4

impeded 66:22

impediment 76:21

80:15

impeding 86:18

implementing

16:16

importance 5:12

important 6:8

19:10 21:8

28:5,22 56:9

66:16 73:15

78:22 81:20

89:10 93:9 96:20

99:1 108:16

imposed 25:10

66:15 71:19

72:21 90:5

imposing 25:1

impossible 100:1

improve 25:20
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 18

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

26:5

improved 20:2

improvement

18:10 26:8

improvements

18:9

in-between 113:10

Inc 2:22

3:10,19,20 4:10

inch 155:3,4

include 30:13 39:6

121:16

included 79:15

86:17 90:13

131:18

includes 120:8

inclusion 68:4

incorporate 121:9

incorporated

121:6 158:21

incorporates

131:8

incorrect 169:9

increase 13:21

16:13 52:21 84:4

164:20

increased 26:13

63:20

increases 16:17

19:20 146:5

increasing 171:3

incredibly 28:21

incumbent 76:14

indeed 75:15

Independence

1:13

indicate 60:18,21

individual 49:19

individually

102:22 103:4,20

individuals 5:12

107:7

induction 138:7

industries 3:19

27:18 33:6 91:8

92:5,7

industry 10:7

15:13 19:21

28:19,22 29:14

31:7,17 32:4

33:1 66:16 72:1

76:11 93:10

121:5 123:12

133:10 141:6

143:21 147:9,10

156:1 163:8

industry-active

29:15

inefficient 166:14

infer 109:4

influence 84:13

86:5 92:11

information 7:1

16:8 18:17,19

24:7 92:15

110:22 169:14

174:21

informing 56:10

inherent 164:19

initial 77:7 81:4

initially 21:9

innovate 29:5

innovation 84:16

86:4,11,18 87:4

90:9

innovations 81:18

innovative 67:16

78:15 86:19

87:19

input 101:8

input/output

144:1

inputs 112:4

inside 73:22

install 156:16

installation 134:21

installations 85:18

119:11,15

instance 82:5

152:2

instead 45:22

86:18

Institute 2:7

integral 132:22

138:11,12 140:2

167:17

integrals 137:22

139:1

integrated 43:3,5

integrity 107:20

intended 90:1

intent 69:14

interest 66:10

107:12,18

176:10

interested 45:20

interests 5:16 6:7

7:10 9:13

internal 31:5

International 3:10

interpretation

76:13

Intertek 3:16 4:9

89:21

intractable 97:5

introduce 77:12

79:12 130:2

introducing 68:13

87:4

invalid 114:18,22

inventory 64:3

investigated 51:19

investment 28:19

invited 68:17

involved 6:3 33:11

78:3 84:18 85:7

140:20

ironed 83:7

isn't 86:6 128:8

129:8 143:7

ISO 110:5,6

issuance 122:5

issue 5:8 6:5 17:7

22:13

33:20,21,22

40:13 49:2,13,19

53:13,19 61:21

67:17 68:9 70:5

77:3,16 87:17

89:3,6 95:1,4

96:19 118:6

119:3 124:6

125:6 139:21

143:5,17 158:22

164:17 172:15

173:16

issued 59:2,14

issues 5:13,22

6:3,9 7:4 9:11
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 19

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

19:21 21:19

22:18 23:6 27:13

30:20 32:16,21

39:4 49:17 51:20

53:14 54:22 55:3

89:15,17,22

96:20,21

97:2,3,5,9,15,16,

22 98:11 99:1

101:19 106:14

107:20 111:11

115:7 125:4

138:4 147:3

issuing 120:8

items 10:16 97:15

106:15,16 114:4

it's 9:17,22 10:9

13:11,12

15:10,11 17:22

18:11,16,22

24:17 26:13

29:10 32:14 35:4

37:13 38:2

40:5,7,11

41:7,11 44:16

46:16 50:5 51:2

54:7,21

58:6,8,19

59:7,22 60:16

63:2 64:4,5

67:19 70:3 71:8

73:14,16,22

78:21 80:3 82:2

85:21 87:14

88:22 95:14

97:17 99:15,16

103:17 105:10

109:14 111:20

116:6,20,22

117:7 118:3,6

128:10,19,20,22

131:3 133:9

135:10 138:7

140:17 142:1

143:13,16

144:22

145:12,15 147:7

148:2 149:20

150:11,14,19,20

153:14,15,17

154:1 155:10

156:9 157:16

159:16,19,20,21

173:14,17

174:5,8,11

I've 5:12 18:6 62:8

72:19 78:20

96:14

J

Jakobs 127:11

January 21:11

48:1

Jeff 2:11 3:12 9:8

45:7 51:5 82:16

105:13

Jeremiah 173:19

Jill 3:8 39:13

55:13 62:18 65:2

69:7 81:12,20

82:20 124:22

136:20 144:11

151:16 161:16

job 108:20 171:10

John 2:15 3:10,14

140:8,11 142:20

145:6 146:2

147:1,20 149:1

153:9 155:19

156:12 167:22

John's 118:4

Johnson 3:11

95:8,12

join 67:15 69:11

70:22 71:2 83:14

96:9

joined 132:7

Judd 4:5

judge 87:14

judgment 59:10

July 21:15,16

jumping 172:13

June 21:15

justification 116:2

117:1

justifications 76:9

justified 29:7

117:8

justify 116:7

K

Kabuki 170:21

Karen 3:17 16:7

27:6 38:6 124:22

127:9 174:10

Karen's 84:6

Karim 2:6 15:14

40:17 50:20 52:1

56:7,18 57:18

67:9 71:1 72:7

74:3 75:10 82:19

83:10 87:12

119:5,10

Kent 3:20 64:11

key 22:12 54:18

kick 21:15 53:20

kinds 116:8

KISS 49:9

Kleiss 3:12 105:13

L

lab 48:2 79:7 83:3

109:18,20

laboratories 3:2

48:3 100:11

113:12

labs 42:14 47:22

111:11

lack 151:8

lag 8:11

language 64:20

121:21 122:1

large 10:5,12

11:4,10,15 35:19

37:9 54:17 62:4

82:7 101:8,11

102:17 103:20

136:8

larger 101:7 106:1

108:9 140:1

156:16 165:21

166:3 168:12

last 33:22 45:6

48:1 55:22 79:21

117:17 119:10

late 56:14 58:7,8

95:19

later 50:10 71:19

90:5

Laura 2:10,21 5:9

6:11 7:22 24:20

27:10 37:21

55:14 60:7 65:17

83:6 91:4 93:4

102:1 108:17

law 77:5,6

lawyer 68:8

lay 7:2

layer 20:12

lead 42:20 149:11
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 20

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

leading 10:3

least 6:14 9:18

27:3 29:22 33:19

45:2 99:9 105:21

111:12 122:1

142:19 143:6

159:11 164:18

leave 69:18

leaves 116:9 171:3

legal 66:13 68:13

legion 46:17

lends 20:12

L'Enfant 174:20

175:1

Lennox 3:10

less 12:2 36:11,13

45:18 47:15 52:3

90:18 95:14 97:1

121:11 123:6

125:12 129:6

138:20 147:22

162:17 169:17

170:5

let's 18:18 55:5,10

68:2 70:13 78:3

99:7 127:13

134:10 135:9

139:2,11 165:17

level 20:13 21:5

80:16 120:13

123:15 151:7

153:22 155:2

156:2 164:15

166:15 167:8

169:1

levels 29:21

107:13 149:22

156:4 170:12

life 171:22

light 132:7

lightening 134:17

lighter 157:17

likelihood 78:5,7

likely 28:8 59:11

66:12

limit 85:4

limitations 71:7

limited 12:6

limiting 72:3

88:22

limits 134:20

Lin 3:13 130:15

132:15 134:9

135:8,20 136:2,8

137:3 138:3

139:6,16,21

140:11 161:12

line 46:16 49:19

76:6 85:8 147:19

lines 13:2 53:8

74:8

link 7:5 8:10

LISA 177:2,13

list 6:22 63:4,12

98:4,6 105:7

106:15,16

108:21 113:15

117:22 159:18

listed 38:1 41:7

63:11 65:10 69:6

104:3

listened 27:7

literature 143:2

little 6:11 12:20

14:22 24:2 27:5

29:10 56:14

67:22 74:8 76:2

101:5 103:16

106:12 121:1,22

131:5 133:5

138:4 156:7

160:3,4 161:13

162:17 174:2

live 54:3,5 91:16

108:12

LLC 3:2,12

load 14:12

134:12,17

136:9,14 144:6

154:10,11,12,13

156:20

157:1,7,10,11,12

,15,17,21 158:18

161:5 163:12

164:7,22

170:12,15 173:5

loading 157:5

Lochinvar 3:12

105:13

log 34:20

logic 83:11

logical 11:19,22

78:1 117:1

logically 116:17

logistics 53:13,19

long 27:12 32:2

51:9 63:4 148:12

longer 50:6 169:3

longest 34:7

long-term 66:3

loosely 68:8

Lord 89:14

losing 28:13

loss 146:8

losses 146:4,5

147:4,18 160:10

lot 6:15 10:9

16:15,16 18:12

19:13 23:15

24:12 32:16

39:16 42:16

46:9,14 47:2,14

48:8 51:3,16

66:2 68:9 78:11

81:21 82:3 83:22

84:18,19,22

85:14 86:22

92:10 96:13

101:6,11 103:3

104:17 113:22

145:8 147:11

170:19

lots 97:17,19

Louis 4:7 32:11

41:3 49:21 50:21

51:22 59:16

love 69:11 160:20

low 9:18 12:9

13:22

lower 43:14

149:13 157:17

166:7 171:11

lowering 29:1

lowest 125:10

171:20

lunch 94:8 95:6,15

98:4

M

magnet 147:13

magnets 147:13

main 32:17

mainline 67:1

maintain 134:12
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 21

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

135:1

maintained 120:14

major 32:12

majority 62:20

MALE 67:7 96:6

159:15

Malinowski 3:14

140:8,9,13

142:16,20,21

145:6 147:1,17

148:6 149:1,9

155:19 156:14

157:7,11,16

158:2,12,17

159:19

160:6,17,22

161:22

162:9,12,15,19

165:16,20 166:3

167:22 172:19

Management 3:4

mandatory

73:9,12 81:3

manifested 28:4

manner 18:3

136:17

manufacture

24:17 109:21

130:11

manufacturer

11:4,10 12:6,14

15:22 20:7 31:5

63:10 65:9 68:21

69:21 74:1

80:1,6 82:22

83:3 84:9,13,21

86:5 88:19

103:12 108:3

109:8 122:18

128:4 135:5

142:22 152:10

158:19 161:19

169:10

manufacturers

10:5,6,9,13

11:15 12:2,11

13:8,15 15:19

16:13,18 17:14

19:17 20:9,17

21:6,22 22:21

24:21 25:10

26:4,14,17,20

32:1 45:4 46:13

54:6 66:14 67:5

81:12 82:3 84:4

85:5 92:17,22

104:10 112:22

119:8 120:6

121:14 125:3,20

130:2 131:14

141:8 144:16,18

145:9 148:11

150:1,12

153:16,17 158:1

160:18 163:5

166:13 172:6,15

173:4,7

manufacturer's

64:17 111:20

134:16

Manufacturers

46:12 147:21

manufacturing

3:7,17 4:11

105:19

map 158:6,8

maps 137:13

Maranton 3:15

March 48:4

marginally 28:15

mark 3:3,16

39:2,18,21 68:4

104:1,14 126:21

154:16

167:10,13

169:15

marked 168:2

market 19:18 21:4

22:6 30:10,14

50:6 51:17,20

66:12,22 70:17

72:4 73:4

76:15,20 77:5,15

78:13,18 79:12

80:14,16 81:8

85:1 89:1 143:20

146:16

marketplace

17:2,11 20:3

25:11,16 62:20

70:11

Marshall 3:9

130:12,16

Mary 2:19 11:12

35:9 42:11 44:5

48:6 50:11 54:4

71:16 93:4 94:7

massive 23:17

match 76:9 121:7

material 19:1

math 105:9

matter 81:7 85:21

119:22 138:22

157:13,14

163:17

maturity 70:11

max 148:15

may 7:18 21:11

28:1 31:10,16

39:3 42:17 70:1

74:9,10 77:17

80:5 81:18 83:22

101:17,18

108:10 109:6

112:8 115:19

120:21 121:3

125:6 127:15

128:2 141:7,20

145:14 146:7

152:18,20

153:1,5,11

154:1,6 158:13

166:13 167:16

maybe 15:1,14

18:15 45:17

46:16 50:8 52:1

58:6 61:4 65:11

67:16 79:22

87:22 91:9

113:7,18,19

124:17 131:5

133:11 135:13

139:10 155:20

McQuay 3:11

mean 14:15,19

16:9 17:11 18:16

20:14 25:5,6

26:7 32:19 33:9

37:12 39:8

46:13,16,20 48:8

51:2,6 52:14

56:18 58:8 59:19

67:21 74:4 79:11

80:3 83:18 87:12

89:5 90:13,14

92:10 94:5 99:18

102:13 110:22

111:2 118:13,14

119:18

124:14,20

125:22 128:22

142:18 143:1

153:8 163:16

170:8 172:1

174:11
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 22

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

means 22:17 59:3

109:20

meant 49:6 75:15

meantime 173:3

measured 14:15

meet 13:3 14:2

18:19 23:11 26:2

76:22 79:13 82:1

114:17 134:20

141:3 150:5

meeting 1:9 6:17

8:16 9:20 16:10

23:22 26:16 30:1

31:10 50:4,7

62:17 77:13

79:21 84:8 89:19

95:20 106:11

108:17,18

111:18 117:15

129:14,19

174:19 175:1

meetings 6:16

8:3,12 9:2 16:12

18:7 101:20

meets 45:1 68:3

80:16 81:6 84:9

member 16:21

23:1 82:9

members 22:14

54:7 67:14

107:10,18 145:8

mentioned 5:19

12:12 60:8

111:18 113:4

Menzer 3:16

mere 20:1

messages 7:19

met 14:5

method 36:10 49:9

89:17 120:18

121:15 123:5,12

135:16,17,18

138:5

140:16,18,19

141:21 144:1,2

163:7,8,11

methodology

123:15

methods 84:14

metric 105:7

Meyers 3:17 16:7

19:15 24:20 28:3

30:12 37:3

38:9,19,22 57:14

110:16

122:11,15

124:17 128:7

161:20 166:2

MG-1 156:4

Michael 3:21

micro 111:7

middle 82:19

Mike 4:9 89:21

145:18 157:2

166:10

million 36:1,5

88:11

100:1,3,6,7,10

102:13 105:22

109:11,16

111:9,19,21

112:2,4,8,9,12,1

4

113:1,7,8,11,17

118:7

millions 17:15,19

mind 101:4

122:11,12

mindful 165:17

minimum 9:17

10:10 12:18

76:20 83:2

107:22 127:22

141:3 166:12

171:18

minutes 129:17,18

135:14 174:16

mirror 32:20

mirrors 32:21

miss 40:4 57:5

missing 141:16

misunderstood

72:19

Mitsubishi 2:22

26:15 72:22

84:18 86:9 87:7

104:13 128:15

173:20

mix 121:7

model 12:4

22:13,15,17

23:18 31:18

33:17,21 34:4

40:21 45:15

63:13 71:19

72:20 93:14

104:8,12 112:5,6

115:8,13 121:16

124:9,10,12

125:15 131:8

133:12 138:21

145:14 168:22

169:8,18

171:5,19

models 11:6,9,18

12:5,7 23:10

31:19 32:7,14

46:4 47:11

104:11

116:13,15

120:11 132:17

133:7,12 143:8

169:20

modify 6:4

Molvie 3:18 111:6

monetary 63:20

money 18:12

30:6,7 51:16

month 42:10 126:5

months 34:7,8

36:20 37:4,6

38:9,20 42:3

45:10,17,18

46:8,19

47:7,12,20,21

48:5,16,22

51:10,12

54:18,21

morning 9:2

24:11,12 64:12

68:17 94:11

104:21

173:17,18

mostly 70:14

133:22 174:11

motor 33:21 37:5

38:10,16 39:4,13

49:13 96:6,7,8

118:16 120:9,14

121:8,9

122:18,19,21

123:6,16

124:9,11,16

125:3,9,10,13

127:14,15,17

128:4 129:6

131:9,18

132:5,8,22

133:16

134:3,4,13,14,15

,18 135:1,4,5,6

136:1,12,13
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 23

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

137:5,20

138:11,15,18

139:7,19 140:4,5

141:3,8,10,22

142:7,22

144:3,16,17

146:11,13

147:3,5 148:8,13

149:2,3,4,12,13,

21 150:13,15,17

151:9 152:5,6,10

153:20,21

154:1,2,6,7,9

155:5,8,9,14

156:7,9,10,16,18

,22

158:6,13,18,19,2

0 159:21,22

160:21 161:18

162:1 164:5,6,19

165:5,6,18,21

166:3,8,11,14,20

167:3,4,8,16,17

168:3,7,11,12,22

169:3,6,7,13,16

171:6,8,11,20

172:3,6

motored 96:5

motors 37:7,14,17

38:12 41:6 49:16

55:10,12 118:12

120:19,22

121:2,3 122:19

123:9,10,17

125:6 127:15,19

128:4,5

130:11,14,19

131:12,16,17,20,

22 132:1,2,19,20

133:2,4,11,17,19

134:11,22 135:6

137:1

139:12,13,18

140:17,18,19,22

143:8,21 144:14

145:5 146:7

147:10,13,19,22

149:22 151:18

152:11,16,17,20

153:17,18

155:22 156:6

157:22

159:6,13,14

161:6 162:1

163:3,7 164:18

166:15,16,20

167:20 168:5,8

169:22

171:13,17 172:9

motor's 127:20,21

156:20

move 25:7 35:13

76:11 124:2

164:4 171:7

moved 111:4

movement 98:17

moves 126:5

moving 9:14 11:3

14:3 15:9 26:12

167:16

multiple 160:14,15

169:20

multiples 160:20

multi-speeds

159:8

Myers 3:19 36:4,8

38:6,18,21

96:12,21 97:11

98:14

99:15,16,20

100:16 107:9

112:15 113:22

myself 34:21 55:19

N

NAFEM 48:7,10

nameplate 142:11

156:21 157:10

nameplates 158:3

narrow 113:19

national 2:11 45:8

103:3

natural 36:8

naturally 171:2

nature 71:6

Navigant 2:3,21

3:15 147:5

necessarily 10:8

46:21 64:19 75:8

82:4,13 110:10

112:7 144:21

151:19 153:8

170:7

necessary 49:12

95:7

NEEA 4:8 32:11

41:3 49:21 51:22

59:16

negative 47:5

negotiate 98:16

171:15

negotiated 98:18

negotiating 31:2

94:3,4 171:12

negotiation 23:12

25:14 33:15

negotiations 23:4

Neil 2:3 109:1

116:10 129:15

130:22

neither 176:7

NEMA 2:12,13

127:22 128:8

129:1 130:4,7

132:6,19,20,22

141:5 145:8

156:4 166:19,20

167:2 168:1

172:5,9

NEMA's 142:9

neodymium

147:13

network 29:15

news 95:18 96:4

nice 173:2

niche 70:15

nine 42:12 47:7,20

112:11

nobody 40:13

43:17

nods 121:20

nominal 144:5

173:5

non-AHRI 23:1

non-air 159:16

noncontroversial

97:20

none 73:21

Nonetheless

117:18

NOPR 47:6

56:10,13 58:3,4

126:16 162:21

168:18 172:22

nor 176:8

Normally 118:5

North 78:3

Northwest 4:7

note 80:17

noted 106:11
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 24

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

notes 40:12 64:9

177:5 178:5

nothing 50:21

148:16 161:18

notice 50:13 56:4,9

58:2 60:18 92:1

124:4

noticed 160:22

notices 6:18

notify 48:10

notion 103:6

not-rated 167:20

November 58:7

NSF

43:3,5,15,16,19

44:2

nuances 114:1

numerical 50:15

O

object 25:6

54:1,14 55:6

59:2

objected 128:8

objection 128:14

objections 15:7

86:3

objective 16:15

17:6 18:16

objectives 30:4

obligation 68:10

77:8

observations

102:16

observer 66:5

obvious 24:4

obviously 6:17

13:10 66:2 83:7

102:8 110:20

occasion 112:8

o'clock 95:7,16,17

96:9 129:14

October 57:1 58:6

offer 73:8 80:12

131:11 150:17

152:5 153:17

171:7

offered 171:6,21

offers 81:6

office 1:2 173:19

Officer 2:15

Off-microphone

52:6 120:1 122:9

offs 101:22 102:3

109:17

Oh 9:7,8 40:8

80:21 173:19

old 159:21,22

OMB 21:12

one-horse

138:15,19

139:2,4

one-off 103:17

104:3,8,14

105:18

one-offs

101:4,5,9,17

102:18 109:9,13

ones 38:1 63:2,6

97:22 99:3

143:18 167:19

one-sided 115:1

ongoing 84:9

online 130:2

141:12

open 1:9 10:18,19

51:17 91:11

92:15 103:5,7

118:8 159:21

168:7

opened 118:7

operate 72:21

156:19 157:16

158:13

operating 93:11

154:10 155:1

156:15 157:1

158:7

operation 154:8

158:10

Operations 2:16

opinion 70:2 78:8

96:19 104:3

128:18,21

opinions 48:20

opportunity 22:10

54:10

oppose 129:11

optimized 169:5

option 47:1 103:20

169:4,10,12

170:2

options 92:22

102:14 148:4

order 31:13 45:1

48:16 59:9 97:16

115:11 134:20

135:1

organization

79:16

original 7:6

originally 15:5

others 16:6 49:8

98:10 99:9 100:7

106:7

otherwise 28:9

73:22 83:19

163:12

ought 103:19

139:17

ours 51:15

ourselves 9:11

13:19 15:4 115:5

outcome 25:2

outgoing 24:16

outline 115:7

output 134:17

outreach 5:9,17

6:11

outset 143:14

outside 12:16

77:13 78:2

overall 31:2 33:15

148:4 150:6

overbooked 42:15

over-rated 135:11

overs 159:8

overseeing 110:12

oversized 39:13

145:5 171:11

overview 95:10

overwhelming

62:19

P

p.m 95:21 121:1

129:20 175:4

P2S 3:20

package 33:16
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 25

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

35:19 37:8,9

54:17 55:21

56:2,3 57:10,12

61:3,13 75:11,12

76:3 121:18

124:2 126:5

127:8

packaged 38:2

39:4 152:4

packed 174:9

pages 172:21

paperwork

46:15,20 48:5

parenthetical

41:15 49:11

PARTICIPANTS

2:5

participate 53:14

62:7 73:4,16

88:19 129:22

participates 62:21

participating

70:12,18 86:16

87:8

particular 27:19

66:9 76:2 116:16

137:7 138:21

141:2,4

parties 96:15

176:8

pass 85:11 90:8

99:5

passed 41:20

past 5:11 22:4

29:2 98:22 99:10

path 172:5

Paul 2:22 3:13

26:15 65:11

72:22 84:17 86:8

104:13 128:15

130:14 131:4

132:6,13 134:5,9

135:2 140:15

161:12 173:20

pay 66:2

PCM 139:7

peg 84:13

penalize 48:18

penalizing 50:19

penalties 13:5,15

15:6 117:3

penalty 9:16,19

16:1 63:19 69:19

89:3 114:15

116:3,5,17,20

Pending 37:17

penetration 66:22

people 5:20

6:14,15,20,22

7:7,9,14 8:5,6

9:21 10:8 14:18

17:1 18:1,17

20:13 46:8,17,21

48:2,8,17,18

50:16,19 51:1,8

53:13 55:3 56:12

59:12 63:16 70:3

72:3 81:21

96:9,17 98:9

99:5 105:8

106:12 108:7,13

114:12 130:14

per 63:13,17 69:16

77:10 105:22

111:19 138:15

159:11

percent 26:1 29:22

50:3 62:20,21

63:13 70:14,17

73:4 106:22

107:1 115:1

138:14 139:1,3

142:3 146:5,6

147:18 160:9

perception 6:15

89:13

perform 81:15

performance

103:2 122:21

144:7 145:11

148:4,13 151:7

performers 63:17

performing 144:3

perhaps 31:10

80:15 89:9 98:18

109:14

period 5:22 29:18

50:5

perjury 16:1

permanent 147:13

permits 43:2

132:18

person 5:19 59:20

110:11 153:9

perspective 21:21

27:12 37:3

111:17

pessimistic 100:21

Pete 111:6

Peter 3:18

Peterson 3:20

64:11

PG&E 3:9 130:16

phase 9:16,19

114:16 116:3

133:18

138:17,18

159:15,20,21

168:4,5,8

phase/poly-phase

152:21

Phil 82:5 83:11

88:7

Phillip 4:10 23:21

35:17,18 71:4

73:14 74:8 75:22

80:19 81:9

Phillip's 90:8

philosophy 48:19

phone 54:14

114:12 119:8

162:11 172:13

phones 7:18

physical 28:21

physically 44:16

pick 83:19

piece 65:3 90:11

111:13

pieces 111:8

pill 28:6

pivotal 97:15,16

places 76:18 90:2

97:13

plain 78:19 159:21

plan 130:19,21

platform 151:8

153:21

playing 17:2

Plaza 174:20

175:1

please 129:22

134:6 162:18

163:19

plugged 6:16
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 26

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

point 8:12 11:3

12:13 19:5

32:12,18

53:9,10,11 61:10

66:4 68:10

70:10,20 76:19

79:20 81:20,21

82:20 88:16 90:8

93:11,21 94:21

97:1,5 98:15

101:12,14

111:3,4,5 115:6

123:2 128:1

137:14,15,16,18

138:9,10 154:4,8

155:8,18

156:20,22

157:1,7,10

158:9,12 170:21

pointed 42:22

points 69:6 70:9

90:17 99:2 158:6

pole 171:8

policy 125:8

poly-phase 132:21

138:16,19

139:12,13,18

153:2 159:11

portion 58:14

106:5

portray 137:2

position 21:17

31:17 51:13

68:15 86:4 88:3

92:3 102:2

109:4,17

110:3,16 111:1

positions 98:16

positive 14:19

24:16

possibilities 63:14

possibility 58:14

88:6 107:6

127:12

possible 6:2 9:19

10:10 44:16 49:9

50:18 85:22

113:12 142:21

162:18 163:20

possibly 39:3

44:13 71:7 94:8

102:12

Post 17:13

potential 81:5

105:15 115:12

174:13

potentially 10:2

13:5 14:1 49:11

120:18

power 105:9

PowerPoint 40:18

PRA 21:12

practice 129:5

133:10

precedent 80:13

predicated 37:4

38:10

preface 131:4

preference 49:3,4

premise 122:17

125:8,11,19

129:4 142:19

152:12

premium 150:2

154:1 156:7

165:18,21

166:19,20 167:2

prequalification

77:20

prerogative 76:5

presence 134:1

present 7:4 47:6

99:8 109:22

presentation 32:2

40:18 69:3

170:18

presented 42:14

65:18

pressure 41:5

119:14

154:19,21

155:3,4 164:4,6

169:2

pretty 28:5,6

59:17 64:3 66:11

88:3 90:21 94:22

117:1 121:10

171:9 173:15

previous 63:12

84:6

previously 36:5

principal 96:22

97:3,4,22

prior 78:5 122:5

153:11

probably 16:9

18:6 43:11 47:21

54:5,6 58:9

78:16 105:1

119:17 122:7

137:16 145:7

146:17

problem 33:12

35:11 41:5

54:8,10 59:21

86:7 99:10 143:6

145:16 148:2

158:17 160:2

167:14

problems 27:19

42:15 86:2 108:7

procedure 22:19

43:1,22 45:6

54:19

67:11,17,21

77:10 78:6

87:16,17,20 88:2

120:11 121:5,6

136:6 139:15

143:22 157:5,6

160:1 161:7

168:18 172:2

procedures 19:22

26:9 43:3 79:1

87:13 141:19

proceeding

176:3,4,5,7,9,10

177:4,5,8

178:3,4,7

proceedings 175:4

process 14:9 15:10

17:9 18:9 19:4

22:12 24:9,17

27:16 28:17 44:2

89:5 109:5,7

119:11

processes 16:16

53:18

procurement

115:9

produced 92:6

product 3:18 7:2

9:22 13:4

20:8,21 30:9

31:12,15 51:10

66:10 67:11

68:3,14 70:15,18

72:9 74:6

75:5,6,7,18,20,2
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 27

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

1 77:15

78:4,16,18 81:14

82:1 83:12,13

84:7,8,10

85:10,16

86:6,12,13,15

87:15,18,19

88:1,10

91:14,16,21

92:19 93:19

103:1 104:3,11

105:10 114:22

116:16,17,19

143:2 147:12

148:21 149:3,6

150:5 153:21

166:16,21 167:3

171:21

production 109:17

productive 62:4

products 3:3 4:10

11:1,4,8,17 12:3

16:4 17:10,16

18:22 19:18,19

21:10,18 22:3,9

23:10 25:7,17

26:10 28:7,14

32:6 37:13 42:8

52:16,18

64:17,19 65:6

67:16 72:5,18

73:19

74:9,10,15,16

75:17,20 79:13

80:9 82:13 83:21

86:17,19 87:9

91:12,15,18

92:13,16 93:1

100:1 103:15,21

106:6 109:10,16

110:17 113:9

142:15 146:12

151:6 153:16

155:1 166:21

profits 30:10

program 13:8

15:16,17 26:21

29:16 31:21 33:7

53:15,16

63:2,11,19 64:17

65:10 66:17

67:12,13 68:12

69:4,5 70:7,13

71:3,14

73:3,5,7,8,9,10,1

2,17

74:11,14,16,17

77:4,17

79:3,5,16

80:4,5,11 81:2,3

83:4,5 85:3

86:16 90:2 93:12

96:15 98:5 99:2

100:3 105:2,5

106:16 107:21

110:18 111:2,19

programs 32:20

33:11 64:8 66:8

67:14 69:17

70:22 73:2 93:18

progress 9:5 14:15

18:8 24:2,10,13

31:9 62:1 96:11

114:7 115:18

118:6 173:15

progressing

115:20

prohibitive 101:12

project 48:5

promoting 27:4

prong 120:17

proof 50:15

proper 6:1

properly 79:1,19

proposal 51:5,6

60:8,14,19 70:16

85:6 88:18 89:22

105:21 144:11

145:3 163:3

proposals 14:16

91:21 92:2,6

propose 115:15

proposed 21:9

46:8 56:4 58:20

81:3 90:10 100:5

122:5 124:4

126:7 173:21

proposing 27:4

42:6 73:6

pros 98:8,9

protection 67:3

protocol 100:2

proven 63:15

provide 123:15

137:9,10 141:21

152:10 157:4,21

163:5,13,20

168:12 172:11

provided 43:6

110:22 132:17

133:6,7 135:9

provides 21:2

135:5

providing 170:1

provision 88:8

provisions 63:20

108:8 116:21

118:12

PSC 134:11,13

138:6,9 139:3

PSCs 163:4

PTACs 33:20

39:15

public 21:4

publication 47:18

60:19 122:5

publicly 25:22

143:16

published 55:15

60:16,17 168:6

publishing 6:17

30:2

pull 155:10

pulled 126:16

138:14

pump 55:20

pumps 39:3 82:7

purely 161:19

purpose 18:13

19:2 29:14

120:19

127:14,15,17,19,

20,21,22 131:22

132:1 133:3,4,9

134:4 139:13,19

140:5 142:13

159:13 169:5

purposes 131:9

142:11 164:10

push 149:15

151:1,2 153:15

160:20

pushback 144:19

147:12

pushed 96:22

97:15

pushing 60:5

148:16,17

153:17

putting 12:22
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 28

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

17:16 79:17 86:4

107:5 142:11

149:4 155:8

PVI 3:19 36:4 38:6

96:12 99:16

107:9 112:15

Q

qualification

63:10 65:9,12

89:4

qualified 110:11

qualify 110:7

132:4

quality 110:9

quantities 100:5

quantity

100:7,15,16

quarter 96:16

155:3 168:8

quartile 146:12,14

148:1

question 8:1 13:19

19:8 32:15 53:1

55:14 91:4

101:8,18 104:14

109:2 116:12

124:18 131:19

133:20 136:15

143:12 152:13

171:3,14,17

questioning 15:4

115:5

questions 7:8 8:22

19:22

quick 14:21 16:6

42:20 82:18

145:14

quickly 56:9 58:12

172:14

quite 38:7 66:12

R

R&D 26:1

R-A-C 40:10

raise 55:4 129:18

raised 22:18 40:13

raises 19:21

raising 5:22

ramifications 66:4

89:12

ran 78:6,7,8,22

79:8

Randy 3:6

range 112:6,10

113:10

ranges 24:8 97:10

98:8 112:3

rant 19:9 24:19

32:10 81:8

rare 112:8

rate 63:13 105:20

142:15 163:4

rated 12:17 87:18

120:10 121:4

133:8 136:12

137:16,18

156:19 159:16

164:7 165:1

169:3 170:12

rates 52:15 63:21

rather 28:20 30:7

50:9 105:19

rating 43:18 64:12

77:8,10,19 89:16

114:18,22

131:10 137:20

141:3 149:21

154:11 156:21

ratings 64:7 66:21

79:18 80:8

120:20 123:11

141:20 143:3

145:1,4 146:9

168:6 170:20

reach 7:12 24:4

48:9 98:21

126:15

readily 145:11

149:5

reading 74:7

ready 7:13 34:4,10

46:17 49:18

108:7 117:2

129:10,13

130:18

real 14:16,20

81:12 82:18

148:21 167:14

realistic 147:8

realities 92:7

reality 92:10

realization 22:14

realize 24:18

121:21 146:7

152:14

really 13:6 17:20

19:8 20:14,15

22:13 25:19

27:11 28:10

29:14 31:7

32:15,17 33:12

43:13 45:20

47:10 50:7 51:7

63:17 79:11 82:3

86:6 89:11 97:21

99:21 100:8,11

101:1,2 111:16

114:17 141:10

144:12

156:10,14,15

157:4 161:3,4

165:22 167:18

170:21 172:17

173:1 174:10

reason 14:21

42:17 91:9 119:4

reasonable

47:13,14 48:3

79:2 132:9

reasons 21:7 31:22

47:15 78:11

105:15 111:22

112:13

recall 36:2

119:7,19

recap 33:14

receptive 27:22

recess 174:17

recessed 95:20

129:19

recognize 28:7

76:12 91:7

recognized 28:12

156:3

recognizing 27:13

recommend 26:19

108:19

reconvene 174:19

record 35:2 39:17

62:10 79:7

118:10,22

174:16 176:7

recorded 8:3

134:6 176:4

recordings 177:6
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 29

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

178:5

reduce 22:11

69:20 147:17

reduced 44:8

176:5

reduction 147:4

reductions 146:4

reengineering

28:13

reference 121:6

referring 109:12

refine 85:22

reflected 36:22

92:6

reflection 116:14

refrigerant 86:13

refrigeration 1:6

2:7,11 30:13

142:6

refrigerators

10:18,19,20,21

42:9 46:5

Regal 3:13 130:15

134:9 161:13

regarded 28:18

regarding 19:22

regardless 75:18

Register 6:18

regretfully 76:1

regulated 31:18

45:2 72:9 74:6

77:15 102:5

regulation 73:19

84:12

regulations 17:4

20:2 26:2 32:8

41:19 44:4 51:8

78:1 84:3

regulatory 24:21

25:1,9 26:3

119:11

reiterate 30:21

31:8 32:5 36:18

reject 117:3

relate 164:16

related 176:8

relative 116:18

136:19 137:12

138:5 139:4

144:7,19 156:20

157:1 161:14

165:10 169:1

relatively 13:22

102:21 103:4

141:22

release 29:4 58:2

remaining

33:20,22 97:18

remark 26:16

remarks 27:7

remember 35:21

119:10

remote 10:19,21

11:22 109:7

RENEWABLE

1:2

repeat 38:7 39:21

repeated 63:21

replacing 168:14

replicating 148:9

report 7:6 96:4

97:7 106:21

reported 1:20

13:12 62:15

177:3 178:3

reporter 8:4

176:1,2,15 177:3

178:3

Reporter's 177:5

178:5

Reporting 1:21

reports 51:18

representations

16:2 20:11

21:3,6 22:1,2,7

representative

123:16

representatives

92:5

represented 39:7

48:8

representing

5:14,15,16 6:7

7:10 15:12 59:12

request 67:20

131:14

requests 173:4

require 65:8 69:4

74:11 75:19

89:11 148:18

required 9:17 14:2

21:19 41:22 70:6

81:13 84:21

134:19 169:6

requirement

20:2,16 27:1

69:9 73:18

76:3,21,22

77:1,14 78:2

79:3 94:2 100:12

102:10 116:14

150:6

requirements

21:10 31:12

41:21 45:1

50:4,7 52:17

53:3,15 63:5,22

66:7,13 68:4,13

71:7 76:7 78:14

79:14 88:20,21

89:12

91:1,2,6,11,14

101:3 102:7,9,11

103:14 105:7

107:22

requires 80:4,14

149:2

requiring 63:9

67:4 76:6 171:5

Research 2:16

reserved 15:8

residential 19:18

29:3 84:19,20

residentially 85:20

resolution 6:2,5

23:5 94:22 113:5

resolve 49:12

53:14 88:4,13

98:12 99:7

101:18 106:19

resolved 9:1 98:15

respect 15:15

48:20 102:2

141:7

respective 143:3

168:4,11

respond 67:8

response 24:20

40:15 95:5 106:8

172:11

responses 141:9

responsibility
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 30

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

69:15

responsible 77:7

rest 11:14 37:7

48:16 51:10

80:20

restraint 68:7

restricted 169:16

restricting 89:1

result 9:22 13:14

43:7 116:4

166:14

results 13:3

retesting 46:12

review 53:17

115:17

reviews 114:12

revisiting 27:10

reward 63:16

Rheem 3:17 16:7

25:22

rightly 10:9

rigor 69:5

rigorous 53:17

69:13

rigorously 66:11

ringing 7:18

rise 141:2,4

Rivest 3:21

145:18,21 146:1

147:14,20 148:7

149:8,17

157:2,9,13,19

158:4,14

159:5,8,14

160:9,12 164:10

165:9,13,19

166:9,10 167:11

172:1

Rob 2:13 156:12

159:1

Robert 4:13

Roger 2:20 141:12

149:18 154:3

155:20 164:1,2

166:6 168:20

170:4

Roger's 156:22

Ron 54:2

Ronald 4:4

room 5:3 10:8

24:22 27:20

44:13 54:14 70:3

94:10,11 107:7

108:11 119:13

124:18 146:2

174:9,20 175:2

rough 24:11,12

roughly 116:15

153:22

round 84:13

routine 29:17

routinely 145:9

rule 21:12

36:19,21 43:12

54:22 56:17

57:14,17

58:12,20,22

59:3,10,14,22

60:10,13

61:2,7,9,10,12

71:21 72:8 73:21

75:14 81:16

83:15 92:11

122:5 126:7

141:10 166:16

168:7

rulemaking 1:4

7:5 8:9 21:14

56:5 92:2 124:4

rules 17:3,4 47:19

73:6 82:10 83:4

run 53:3 79:6 97:4

99:14 136:11

145:13 146:16

155:2 157:8

running 79:7

80:11 157:12

164:7

runs 164:21

Rusty 4:11 30:16

32:9 34:6 36:17

130:3,10

Rusty's 116:13

S

S.W 1:13

Sachs 4:2 9:3 27:6

28:4 32:9 37:21

39:6,21 62:5,8

66:1 67:22 68:19

69:2,8,22 75:22

80:13,20,22 89:7

94:21 95:18 96:5

102:15

109:1,4,14

110:3,8,13

116:10,12

117:6,9 118:3

119:10 140:10

163:21 164:2,14

170:17

171:14,17

sake 17:8

sale 171:6

sample 115:8

SARAH 178:2,12

satellite 109:18,20

satisfy 34:15

save 128:9

saw 98:17 119:21

133:17

scale 138:8,21

139:4,18 140:1

141:11 144:2

scales 128:1

scaling 120:18,21

123:4 129:2

139:18 140:6

141:9,10,13,18

142:9,12 143:4

146:2 147:4

148:17,19

schedule 34:1,3,12

50:8 125:20

126:4

scheduled 162:21

scheme 80:7

scope 20:1 67:11

74:18,20 75:11

76:4 88:1 165:21

screaming 47:8

screen 34:13,16

59:6 98:3 106:15

se 63:18 69:16

seat 95:22

seats 129:21 130:1

second 49:10

79:11 81:20

103:18 120:17

130:9 174:22

secondary 14:11

section 74:21,22

75:1,3 82:14

88:9 141:12

sections 82:8,9
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 31

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

seeing 19:6 27:9

29:9,22 43:9

46:20 59:5

seem 33:7

71:19,22 105:4

119:2 132:2,9

seemed 49:8

seems 32:4,12,15

33:2 60:7 72:2

93:6 96:14 112:2

116:14 171:9

seen 17:12 27:22

50:14 52:14 68:6

96:14 98:15

133:1

sees 19:16

segment 85:1

select 11:5

selection 115:8

self 10:19 11:21

41:18 51:7 65:7

109:21

self-contained

10:17,18,20 42:8

43:10 46:3,5

47:11 51:12

self-testing 108:3

self-verification

109:21

sell 77:1 105:4

124:13 149:3

selling 157:22

semi-solved

173:16

send 6:21 7:17

46:10 55:22

56:1,3,9 58:3

91:22 92:2

126:10 173:6

sending 6:18 173:4

sends 61:15

sense 47:15 78:11

79:16 91:13,17

93:3 105:4

128:16 174:2

sensitive 81:5

sent 11:11

33:15,16 118:15

separate 6:9 94:9

separately 130:6

separation 11:19

September 57:1

58:5

series 109:17

serious 70:21

seriously 20:10,12

92:15

session 24:1

104:22 114:11

122:12

sessions 31:11

62:4 173:13

setting 9:16 43:15

88:20

setup 29:16

seven 45:6

112:11,22 152:6

154:7,10,12

156:18 165:4

167:1

several 6:14 16:11

21:21 172:16

shaded 171:8

shake 43:9

shaking 166:4,5

share 39:4 68:10

76:15 143:16

161:20

SharePoint

8:17,18

Shebik 4:4 54:2

shed 132:7

sheer 52:17

sheet 116:13

sheets 149:6

ship 102:18

shipments

116:15,18,20

shipped 101:12

short 145:16

shown 141:11

shows 97:12 143:2

sides 9:13 71:17

86:22

signed 7:1

significant

16:13,17 38:13

57:2 97:1,21

103:2 106:5

signing 161:17

SIKES 177:2,13

similar 33:3 84:6

88:20 127:18

136:17

similarities

101:6,10

similarly 5:16

simple 45:10,16

49:9 54:13

simplification

49:5

simplify 171:4

simply 50:2 146:3

simulation 28:20

simulations 22:11

Simultaneous

160:16 163:1

174:14

single 104:8

138:16,18 142:5

152:20

158:5,9,12

159:20

160:14,19

168:4,5,8 170:20

single-phase

132:19 140:17

152:17

sir 37:2

sit 15:4 89:11

site 109:8

sitting 29:8 47:17

54:7

situation 39:15

73:20,22

situations 66:20

six 42:12 45:6 47:7

48:5 49:20

size 99:18 100:14

166:3 171:3,18

sized 99:11,12

102:17

sizes 100:15 106:4

133:1 168:9

skillful 93:6

slide 63:7

94:12,13,14

118:11,19

121:22 122:7

slides 118:8
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 32

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

slightly 159:2

163:9

slower 15:10

slowly 115:20

small 10:5,9

12:2,6,11 35:19

37:8 48:13 82:7

87:3,6,7 95:15

103:5 116:18

138:11,15,18

159:14 166:11

168:7

smaller 54:7 66:14

106:3 109:15

111:14 168:13

smallest 171:6,20

Smith 4:5

sneaking 50:16

sold 25:18 102:21

104:11,12,20

148:22

solid 42:8

solidified 14:5

solution 22:6

33:2,12 57:16

105:12 122:4

129:1,3,4 161:10

solutions 29:5

solve 16:16

somebody 5:6

45:17 53:18 71:1

74:11 79:8

109:22 151:21

somehow 71:18

153:2

someone 40:9

132:13 172:9

somewhat 32:20

70:2 109:15

137:9

somewhere 21:15

101:13

sooner 50:9

sophisticated

102:21 104:20

sophistication

103:9

sorry 26:18 35:1

65:2 67:7,8,22

70:8 75:14

80:3,21 118:16

130:14

sort 33:14 58:21

81:13 134:22

170:21

sound 78:1

sounded 61:22

88:21 149:20

sounds

14:14,16,17,19

100:13,21

168:15

source 38:1 39:3,5

55:20 82:7

spans 91:16

speak 52:1 71:1

132:14 134:6

SPEAKER 67:7

96:6,7 159:15

Speaking 140:21

special 105:18

specialized 103:20

specialty 28:13

109:16

specific 37:22 64:6

71:6 73:1 75:21

117:17 131:7

134:10

specifically 69:1

89:5 120:3

131:12

specification 68:3

specifications 67:4

specifics 70:5

specified 44:3

171:19

specify 64:16

spectrum 27:18

speeds 143:3

spend 30:6 113:22

spending 25:21

spent 51:16 98:1

split 35:8 44:11

45:11 46:7

47:10,11,13

133:18

splits 46:1

splitting 42:7

45:14,15

spot 13:9 113:11

spreadsheet

133:18

SPVU 38:1

41:9,10 55:21

SPVUs 33:20

39:6,9

119:3,4,6,12

square 84:14

stabilization

136:2,6

stabilize 136:13

stable 90:19

stage 79:11

stages 103:16

stakeholders

56:11

stamp 66:11 79:17

stand 71:12 77:18

standard 12:18

13:3 23:11 38:12

44:2 83:2 84:14

103:10 114:18

124:19 129:9

133:9 141:5,6

145:15

150:2,14,22

151:1 152:5

154:1,19,21

155:22

156:9,11,13

159:3,12 160:1

162:4 164:18

166:12 168:1

standardized

162:7 163:2,11

standards 1:4

28:15 29:18 30:2

76:20 77:16 78:4

83:1 154:18

156:4

standards-level

103:1

standing 79:18

87:1,2

standoffish 14:22

standpoint 133:15

137:15

standstill 115:18

Stanonik 4:6 7:22

8:14,20

60:6,12,14

61:4,8,14,17,19

72:6,10,13 75:5
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 33

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

76:17 100:19

111:15 112:16

STAR 29:21 51:19

Starr 4:7 32:11

41:3 49:21

51:4,22 52:7

59:16 99:11,18

100:13,18 124:8

start 9:2 10:4 53:8

57:3,8 60:4

96:10 101:7

106:13 108:21

113:15 115:13

132:10,11,13

134:17 138:3

started 5:4 24:5

27:11,15 42:17

63:12

starting 42:1

111:3,4 138:9,10

starts 126:7 175:2

start-up 70:21

start-ups 70:22

71:2

state 31:17

stated 26:1 32:1

statement 20:7

74:4 84:6

statements 16:1,5

20:14,18 25:5

43:8 50:13

states 42:1 59:20

67:6 77:1

static 38:12 41:5

119:14

120:11,12

122:20 124:19

125:13 127:16

128:2 131:13

154:18 155:3,4

164:4,6

169:2,11,13

171:8

statics 123:7

169:17,20

stating 78:13,15

statutory 102:2,5

103:14

stay 165:20

steam 111:20

112:17

113:1,5,10,13

steels 148:18

Stem 4:9 89:21

step 9:15 15:2 26:6

88:12 114:8,9

132:21 140:14

165:4

Stephens 4:10

23:21 35:18

36:1,11,14 59:5

71:4,11,15 73:14

74:19 75:16

80:19,21 81:9

83:21 86:2,21

88:3,12

steps 15:2 16:11

48:11

stick 20:11

sticking 32:12,17

stifling 86:3,11

stipulations 89:2

stop 93:16

134:15,16

stories 50:16 51:15

story 168:5

stream 141:1

stringent 43:7

44:2 94:2

strong 29:15 33:7

66:10 111:22

114:3

strongest 114:6

stuck 81:17

stuff 15:12 28:15

46:12 48:2 50:6

74:21 110:5

112:7,10,11

115:15 172:6

174:9

subgroup 98:21

subject 13:20

34:10 115:2

125:14,16

submit 34:9 46:11

56:10 59:11 83:4

92:1

submittals 46:15

subsequently

125:16

subset 143:19

substandard 30:9

substantial 29:6

substituted 154:6

substituting

151:12

success 19:6

successful 63:15

suction 90:17

sufficient 110:5

suggest 37:18 40:9

49:18 94:8

suggested 64:20

suggesting 56:16

117:4

suggestion 34:2

62:2

suggestions 9:1

101:15 108:10

113:21

Suite 1:12

summarizing

11:16

summation 52:2

sundae 78:20

super 147:10

superior 78:17

supervised 109:7

Supervisory 2:16

suppliers

160:14,19

168:11

supply 145:9

support 74:1

85:17

supposed 21:1

23:3 35:12 50:18

175:2

sure 7:18 9:10

17:6,20 18:16

19:4 22:22

25:1,9,17

26:9,13 46:15

53:17,19 62:5

65:14,21 72:20

75:4 78:22 83:17

90:16 93:5,7

96:16 117:2

119:21 121:10

130:21 134:9

136:18 149:8

150:21

surprised 23:15

surrounding
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 34

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

131:7

suspect 28:6

sustain 55:7

switch 123:6,7

124:11 125:12

129:6

switching 41:6

151:4

sympathetic 70:4

system 25:15 93:2

105:15 142:6

148:5 149:14

150:6 155:11

157:20

158:10,21

169:2,5,11

systems 110:7,9

121:2

system's 169:3

T

table 5:13,17 6:1

7:9,14 10:14

14:17 45:9 54:7

59:13 60:21

89:14 94:6

102:14 121:20

138:12,15 146:3

156:5,6

taking 15:1 16:9

26:4 30:10

145:3,4

talk 5:9 43:11

58:16 82:21

96:10 101:21

128:11 162:21

163:6,10,11

168:16

talked 5:11,12,14

10:7,16 12:15

45:9 46:6 62:14

64:2,15 101:1,2

117:15 120:4,18

121:11 125:22

151:19

talking 5:20 7:3

12:12 40:14

43:12 47:18,20

50:1 53:1 56:22

57:1,6 58:6

59:11 60:9 67:15

72:12

73:11,12,15

87:13 96:2 97:10

99:13 103:17

108:4 109:10,12

112:18 115:9

127:11 133:16

140:15 143:19

152:15 155:21

156:8 161:2,3

task 113:1 117:17

TEA 140:22

team 172:9

tear 29:8

tech 148:16

technical 141:12

142:9,22 147:2

172:9

technically 141:11

technician 110:12

techniques 107:13

technologies

140:16 148:19

technology 132:15

138:5

TEFC 162:3

telephone 3:10,22

4:11

temperature

43:14,15 134:20

135:1 136:3,7,9

141:2,4

temperatures

43:4,6 90:17

template 76:8,9

temporarily 41:14

ten 28:1 70:14

86:11 112:11

ten-horsepower

140:1

tennis 81:10

term 68:8 114:19

151:8

terms 60:5 66:7

89:12 91:18

104:17 105:14

131:17 135:16

136:8 137:4

161:13

terse 68:1

test 13:2,14 14:3

19:22 20:18

21:22 22:8,11,19

23:8,19,20 25:4

26:9 27:4 29:22

36:9

43:1,3,7,16,17,1

9,20,21 44:8

45:5 46:9 47:22

51:16 54:19

67:11,16,21

72:18 77:9,10

78:6 80:8

85:12,19

87:13,16,17,20

88:2 89:4 90:15

99:22

100:1,11,17

105:3 109:11

110:12 112:1,8

115:2,14 120:10

121:5,6

135:16,22 136:6

137:7 139:15

140:22 141:19

142:5 143:22

148:11 152:15

154:18,19

155:3,12 156:13

157:5 159:2,3

161:7 162:5

163:3,8 168:17

172:2,21

tested 23:3 26:10

52:18,19 67:12

85:16 87:15,20

100:15 102:6

106:19 109:18

111:18,21

112:12,17

120:10,12 121:4

123:11 125:14

127:18,19

135:7,10,19

136:16 138:1

139:14 155:9

159:11 160:1

167:12

testing 13:11,17

14:2,11 16:4,20

18:22 20:22

21:19 29:20 33:1

43:5 46:14

50:2,4 51:16

63:10 65:9

69:16,19,20 80:2

81:15 83:3,13

91:19 100:6

101:13

102:8,10,12

106:2 108:1,2

109:7 110:1

111:10 112:7,10
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 35

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

114:21 116:13

125:16 131:9

140:15,19,22

142:4 159:4

162:21

tests 9:17 14:11

28:21 43:2 44:22

45:5 77:20,21

78:6 79:6,7,9,19

97:3 99:14

106:18 112:21

T-frame 140:5

thank 19:15 21:16

35:6 36:14 38:18

93:4 110:13

122:15 130:17

139:5,8 163:22

170:18 172:20

173:1,9

thanks 29:12 32:9

38:3 68:15 80:13

89:7 129:15

172:19

Tharp 4:11

30:16,19 32:10

34:6,15 35:4

36:17 37:2

130:3,10

that's 9:8 10:12

11:15 12:9,10

16:21 18:3,14

25:11 28:4 41:6

51:7,12,20 61:10

75:14,16 81:19

85:6 86:1,15

90:5,6,22 98:20

99:9 103:19

108:16,19

110:1,2,19

111:12 113:14

114:3 115:6,9

117:2 122:10

123:13 124:14

131:1,18 133:15

138:3 139:16

143:18 144:4

146:18 148:1

149:3

150:9,11,16

151:14,17

153:8,12 157:15

158:4,16 159:17

160:9 164:22

165:13,14

166:15 167:18

169:9 173:1

174:7

themselves 29:7

78:6,7

theological 80:17

theology 80:14

theoretical 76:14

148:16

theory 129:7

144:12 168:15

thereafter 176:5

Therefore 62:22

there's 11:22 13:2

17:12 35:14

37:21 59:17

85:12 130:21

thermal 36:9

thermo 134:14

thermostat 134:14

they'd 77:11 150:1

they're 8:9,16,18

13:18 17:16,22

39:14 41:4 51:1

63:3 67:14 75:18

79:8,15 80:7

84:12 85:8,11

97:20 101:11,13

115:19 123:8

124:15 128:11

144:8 148:7

163:6 164:22

third 40:3

thoughtful 27:7

thought-out 92:6

thoughts 6:6 34:11

35:17 95:3 96:17

103:22 106:9,11

107:8

thousands 116:19

three-phase

152:16

three-quarters

114:9

three-sided 9:3

throughout 148:9

throw 137:5

throwing 104:17

thumb 34:22

Tim 52:22 58:13

timeline 48:15

Timothy 2:9

today 7:18 18:11

25:20 29:3 38:15

47:21,22 51:1

71:2 117:12

148:22

173:12,15

174:19

today's 23:22

tolerance 115:1

tolerances 114:13

Tom 3:11

tomorrow 95:19

97:7 162:20,21

168:16

173:14,17,18

174:3,19

Tomorrow's 175:1

tonight 89:20

174:3,4

tool 20:17

to-order 64:2

top 41:2 47:8

78:21 87:1 137:6

146:12,14

topic 35:14

topics 115:10

toss 81:10

tossing 92:8

total 111:16

totally 38:15 78:12

85:13

86:12,15,19

162:1

tough 28:6

toward 149:16

towards 11:11

14:4 18:4 98:17

122:4

track 52:3

trade 66:9,17,20

68:7 89:1

tradeoff 167:6

tradeoffs 148:3

166:13

training 27:2,3

Trane 3:8 39:13

55:13 62:19

136:21 144:11

151:17 161:16

transcript 122:2

176:6 177:4,6
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 36

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

178:4,6

transcription

177:1,7 178:1,7

Transcriptionist

177:13 178:12

transcripts

8:4,7,11,12

Transfer 4:10

transition 27:13

29:2

translated 167:9

transmitted

170:20

Traulsen 2:19

35:9 42:11 48:7

50:11 54:4 71:16

93:5

treat 92:22

treated 91:18

92:13 116:1

treating 92:16

tremendous 17:3

tricky 165:14

tried 77:21,22 85:3

90:22

trip 134:14 136:13

Tritsis 4:12 107:16

109:10,20

110:6,9

troll 18:2

true 3:7 75:10 79:3

118:5 156:14

176:6 177:7

178:6

truly 102:18

try 29:5 59:18

69:12 84:12 85:4

86:5 89:18

136:10,11

146:21 150:4

trying 9:14 10:10

11:12 15:8 16:14

17:7 26:7 34:17

46:10 48:9,18

50:17 66:14

69:14,20,21

85:21 86:1 110:4

111:7 118:3

131:6

141:16,17,21

142:3,13

144:4,5,6

147:17,20

157:19 158:5

164:16 165:4

170:10,11

Tuesday 1:16

turn 38:14 92:4,8

145:1

turned 51:18

turning 54:22 93:6

turnover 119:13

type 38:17 109:19

120:8,20 121:9

123:14 131:20

132:8 133:2,19

134:11 143:22

144:2 150:19

158:20

typed 177:4 178:4

types 7:3

91:12,14,15,22

92:17 93:1,19

120:21 121:1,3

131:12 132:1

143:8 153:18

169:22

typewriting 176:5

typically 41:4

133:2 164:17

U

U.S 1:11 2:8,10,16

3:21 77:15

UL 3:2,6 65:3,17

70:8 82:11 83:1

88:15 134:13,20

ultimately 29:1

unable 104:9

unanimity 105:22

111:8

Unanimous 98:6

unanimously 62:8

unclear 131:3

uncoated 28:10

uncomfortable

67:3 76:6,8,15

underlying 22:1

understand 15:18

16:14 19:3,8

46:21 56:15 67:2

69:2,13 71:22

72:16 75:4 88:8

92:4 93:8,20,22

94:4,20 110:4

128:13 130:1

136:21 139:8

142:18 147:14

156:2 157:18

158:15 167:20

174:1

understanding

13:6 23:2 90:12

117:14 132:4

139:14 153:11

understood 47:1

69:2 71:5 93:7

undertaking 38:17

Underwriters 3:2

undue 12:11

unfortunately

29:17 48:12

100:20 136:5

unintended 84:3

unit 12:7 137:8

146:11 147:15

148:9,10 149:10

152:4 155:2

165:17 166:19

167:5,7,15

unitary 33:19 38:2

82:6,7

United 59:20 67:6

77:1

units 11:7 29:22

41:4,19 43:10

51:17 57:3,5

105:22 148:12

154:20 167:9,11

universal 76:8

universe 103:18

unless 36:19 72:19

101:20 147:15

171:7

unlikely 59:13

60:1 103:2 171:9

unload 19:15

unmated 140:13

unqualified 70:3

unregulated

156:10

updates 42:1,2

uphill 87:4

upon 38:16 100:14

upsizing 149:12
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 37

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

URL 34:21

user 162:6

users 162:5

usually 78:14

104:19 146:1

utilities 31:4

utilized 132:16,18

V

vague 67:22

valid 142:14

validate 12:7

validation 10:17

11:5,9,17,19,20

13:7,11,21 14:2

46:2 79:5

value 12:17 19:16

20:4 141:17

142:10

values 120:20

131:10 146:8

vanilla 78:19

vaporware 156:15

variable 86:13

various 31:4

149:22

vastly 25:8

VEACH 178:2,12

verification

15:16,17 16:4,20

26:21 31:21

32:15,17,22

33:4,7 42:18

50:22 51:3 52:7

53:3,8,15,16

63:1,2 64:8,16

65:12 66:7

69:16,17 71:13

72:12 76:10

79:14 80:2 85:3

88:18 90:4 91:19

93:2 98:5 100:2

101:3,9,16

102:8,10,12

103:13 105:2,5

106:1 107:21

108:2 109:5

110:5,18

111:2,10

112:1,13 114:21

115:13

125:14,16

173:22

verified 65:7 70:19

105:10

verify 80:3,8

112:5,6,9

verifying 16:5

25:7 65:5 74:5

101:21

version 50:2

150:18

versus 81:2 90:3

116:13 134:3

136:19 138:6,7

via 3:10,21 4:11

VICP 62:22 70:12

71:8 88:19

view 23:10 60:18

76:19

views 5:18 7:12,16

virtually 28:20

visitors 118:1

voice 7:19

voluntary

73:8,9,17 81:2

86:15 93:12

vote 7:13 9:4

34:2,4,10 35:16

37:7,18,19

49:18,19

55:5,8,11 56:21

65:4 72:2 98:11

99:4 120:5

121:12,13,16

128:17 129:10

voted 33:17

55:19,21 56:1

163:16,17

votes 61:12 99:5

voting 122:3

VRF 37:13

VRFs 33:20

W

wait 37:10

waiting 42:13,17

56:13

waiver 55:1

67:19,20 77:11

walked 114:10

walking 122:13

147:18

Washington 1:14

17:13

wasn't 119:21

122:12

water 17:14 24:1

29:2,3 33:18

37:8 38:1

39:3,5,20 55:20

82:7 99:17

107:11

112:18,19

113:2,8

water-cooled 40:1

watts 155:10

ways 15:10 23:5

91:18 92:13,16

93:2 108:10

119:21 147:4

wear 29:7

wearing 48:21

web 18:1

website 8:7 17:5

18:1 20:11 34:19

65:6

we'd 155:14

week 121:18

162:16,19

163:15

weeks 46:19 48:2

55:9 58:5 172:16

weigh 30:19

weighing 25:12

welcome 85:1

we'll 35:21 55:22

107:3 117:21

125:5

well-understood

66:19

we're 7:7 9:16

10:3

12:8,12,20,22

13:1,8,9 14:6,22

15:1,2,3,8,12

16:15 17:4,17

18:8,10,11,15

19:6,11 21:17

23:12 26:7 29:21

30:8 37:6 38:22

40:11 45:14

46:20 47:5,18,20

48:9,18 50:17,18

51:20 53:1 55:1

57:6 59:5 60:9

70:18 71:8
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

Page 38

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

73:12,15,19

77:19 79:17

80:22

85:8,13,19,20

86:1 88:4 92:8,9

93:19,20 105:11

109:11 110:17

111:7 114:10,14

115:6,18,20

121:19

123:9,21,22

126:22 128:22

129:13 130:18

132:6 133:16

143:19 144:4,5,6

146:19 150:8

151:14 153:8

155:7,13 161:3

166:4,5 167:18

170:1 171:12

173:19 174:15

175:2

we've 5:3 6:13

9:14 50:13 55:8

99:7

106:13,19,20

143:6 160:22

162:19,20

173:14

WH 1:6

whatever 6:10 8:3

13:10,11 29:3

42:16 45:18 46:1

54:14 59:9 77:9

78:6 83:3,6

114:18 122:18

124:9 137:20,21

150:13 154:2

172:3

Whereupon 95:20

129:19 175:4

whether 13:16,17

20:21,22 23:1

24:18 29:20 63:2

64:15 77:3 80:4

87:14,19,22

92:20 99:4,5

104:8,10

106:18,20,21

108:12 115:22

117:8 123:3,4

125:3 170:11

171:4,18,19

whichever 75:20

whittles 161:9

Whitwell 4:13

37:11 39:10 40:6

64:14,22 118:1

127:9,10

128:10,13

132:11

135:2,3,18,21

136:4 139:10,17

140:3 152:22

153:5

159:7,10,17

163:2,14 169:9

whoever 77:6

82:11

whole 6:3 19:4,11

23:15 26:3,11

28:17 59:18

93:10 98:4,6

101:8 105:14

112:9 127:8

170:20

whom 176:3

wide 24:8

willing 17:17

24:13 34:8 85:14

92:18,19,21

143:15

willingness 96:14

98:16 107:18

108:4 110:21

window 42:10

48:3

wish 67:5 161:21

withdraw 60:3

witnessed 112:21

wonderful 115:10

wording 118:16

121:22

work 7:19 10:1

28:20 31:7 32:4

57:3 58:10 84:15

98:18 110:21

120:21 121:14

123:21 125:1,2,4

127:2,12 128:5

129:2 145:8

147:2,7 172:21

workable 54:19

121:15

worked 5:5 89:14

96:4 124:3

working 1:7 7:9

16:22 18:4 19:5

23:14 30:22

31:1,7,10 55:1

57:15,19 70:10

86:13 89:15,16

92:10

101:1,14,21

110:18 114:20

122:3 123:3,14

124:1 126:4

127:2 129:1,3

168:10 174:4

works 33:10

world 148:21

worried 121:19

170:7

worse 151:4 155:9

Worst 145:12

worth 27:10

worthwhile 174:8

wrapped 90:21

wrestling 105:11

writing 11:11

written 29:18

65:16

wrong 18:16 50:12

109:6

Y

Yep 148:6 162:9

167:21

yesterday 9:5

12:15 16:10

24:11 32:1 63:7

69:3 91:9 118:12

127:11

yet 13:1 23:13 38:5

39:1 65:1,21

131:3

York 17:13

yourself 13:14

yourselves 5:14

130:2 134:7

you've 77:20,21,22

96:1 139:22

Z

zero 108:1,2