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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY OFFICE OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE COMMERCIAL HVAC, WH, AND REFRIGERATION CERTIFICATION WORKING GROUP

OPEN MEETING

U.S. Department of Energy Forrestal Building, Suite 8E-089 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W. Washington, D.C. 20585

Tuesday, August 27, 2013 9:57 a.m.

Reported by: Christine Allen, Capital Reporting Company

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 FACILITATOR 3 Neil Eisner, Navigant Consulting 4 5 PARTICIPANTS 6 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 7 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) 8 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy 9 Timothy Ballo, EarthJustice 10 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy 11 Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning 12 Alex Boesenberg, NEMA 13 Rob Boteler, NEMA 14 David Calabrese, AHRI 15 John Cymbalsky, ASRAC Designated Federal Officer, 16 Supervisory Operations Research Analyst, U.S. 17 Department 18 of Energy 19 Mary Dane, Traulsen 20 Roger Daugherty, Baldor 21 Laura Degitsz, Navigant 22 Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd) 2 Brian Ferriol, Underwriters Laboratories LLC (UL) 3 Mark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products 4 Derek Greenauer, Global Government Affairs Management 5 Geoffrey Halley, ABMA 6 Randy Haseman, UL 7 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing 8 Jill Hootman, Trane 9 Marshall Hunt, PG&E 10 John Hurst, Lennox International, Inc. (via telephone) 11 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay 12 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar, LLC 13 Paul Lin, Regal Beloit 14 John Malinowski, Baldor 15 Aris Maranton, Navigant 16 Mark Menzer, Intertek 17 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 18 Peter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development 19 Frank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc. 20 Kent Peterson, P2S Engineering, Inc. 21 Michael Rivest, U.S. Department of Energy (via 22 telephone)

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd) 2 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient 3 Economy 4 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation 5 Judd Smith, CSA Group 6 Frank Stanonik, AHRI 7 Louis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance 8 (NEEA) 9 Mike Stem, Intertek 10 Phillip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products, Inc. 11 Rusty Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing (via telephone) 12 Bill Tritsis, AHRI 13 Robert Whitwell, Carrier Corporation 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. EISNER: If everybody can give me your 3 attention? I think we've got everybody in the room 4 now. We can get started. Before we get into the 5 details of what you all worked out -- it looks like 6 everybody is here. Somebody did tell me they thought 7 there were some dead bodies, but it looks like you have 8 all made it here. I wanted to go back to one issue and 9 give Laura a chance to talk about some outreach efforts 10 they are going to make. 11 We have talked in the past, both as a group 12 and I've talked to individuals about the importance of 13 all issues coming to this table for discussion. We 14 have talked about you are not representing yourselves, 15 you are not representing your company. You are 16 representing similarly affected interests around this 17 table. And you have been making some good outreach 18 efforts to get those views around. 19 You know, for example, one person mentioned 20 to me that some of the people he was talking with 21 during the break were thinking of just holding their 22 issues back and raising them during the comment period.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6 1 I believe that the proper place is this table. We want 2 to come up with the best possible resolution of the 3 whole set of issues that are involved. And if we have 4 to modify one thing we have agreed to to accommodate 5 another issue and the resolution there, it should be 6 done here, where we have everybody's thoughts 7 representing all of these interests. 8 It is very, very important that all of the 9 issues be done here and not in separate forums, other 10 bodies, whatever. And one of the things DOE wants to 11 do is a little outreach efforts that Laura can tell you 12 about. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So one thing we've heard from 14 several different people is that there is at least the 15 perception that there are a lot of people who are not 16 aware or plugged into what is going on in our meetings. 17 Obviously we have already been publishing the meeting 18 notices in the Federal Register. We have been sending 19 out blasts. But to the extent that there have been 20 concerns expressed about people not being aware about 21 what is going on, we are going to send out a blast 22 again to the complete list of all the people who are

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 7 1 signed up with DOE for information about any of these 2 product areas. And in it, we are going to lay out the 3 types of things that we are talking about, some of the 4 issues that have been present. We are also going to -- 5 it will have a link to the docket for this rulemaking, 6 which has the original AEDM report that went to ASRAC. 7 And we're going to tell people that if you 8 have concerns or questions or comments, to contact us 9 at this table, that there are people in this working 10 group who are representing their interests. And if 11 they have concerns or if they have other ideas or other 12 views, now is the time to reach out. We are getting 13 ready to vote. And they need to find out what is going 14 on. They need to be calling the people at this table. 15 And they need to be finding out what is going on, and 16 they need to be getting their views heard. 17 So we are hoping to send that blast out 18 today. So your phones may be ringing. So make sure you 19 check your work voice messages and email accounts this 20 evening. 21 MR. EISNER: Frank? 22 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Laura,

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8 1 one of the things -- and, well, the question that has 2 come up a couple of times to me is okay. Every one of 3 these meetings is recorded or whatever. We have a 4 court reporter. Where are those transcripts available 5 because I have had people ask? Not that I want to read 6 them, but I have had people ask me where the 7 transcripts are available on the website. 8 MS. BARHYDT: So there is a docket for this 9 rulemaking. And they're in the docket. And this blast 10 will have the link to the docket, which will have the 11 transcripts in it. There is a lag time, but at this 12 point, most of the transcripts for most of the meetings 13 have come in. 14 MR. STANONIK: Okay. And, well, I guess I 15 hadn't looked at the docket, but I hadn't been able to 16 find any since the first meeting. So they're in the 17 docket but not on the SharePoint? 18 MS. BARHYDT: I think they're on SharePoint, 19 too. 20 MR. STANONIK: Okay. All right. I'll look 21 again. 22 MR. EISNER: Any other questions, comments,

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 9 1 suggestions? Okay. Everything resolved in the 2 meetings this morning? Who wants to start off? 3 MR. SACHS: Do you have a three-sided coin? 4 MS. BARHYDT: I vote for CRE because you all 5 made so much progress yesterday. 6 MS. DANE: Well -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, dear. 8 MS. DANE: Oh, dear. That's it. Jeff has 9 something he wants -- 10 MR. BAUMAN: Sure. We had good discussions, 11 and we also brought up some issues within ourselves in 12 kind of going back and looking at some things to 13 balance out the interests on both sides. I'll say what 14 we've -- you know, as we are moving forward trying to 15 step back also and look at things like should there be 16 a penalty phase for -- if we're setting basically a 17 minimum number of tests that would be required; if it's 18 a low number, to keep it as least burdensome as 19 possible should there be a penalty phase if you're not 20 meeting. And then we debate about the fact that does 21 that put additional burdens for people because, as a 22 result if it's an AEDM product, they already have

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 10 1 additional work that they have to do there or 2 potentially in ED-listed or those things. 3 So I think we're kind of leading to the fact 4 that, as a start, I'll say, we were looking at a 5 division between large manufacturers and small 6 manufacturers, again, hearing some of the concerns from 7 industry groups, as we have talked to them on the side, 8 more so than I think necessarily people in this room. 9 And rightly in a lot of cases, it's small manufacturers 10 trying to keep that burden as minimum as possible. And 11 we used a division of 750 more employees. I think 12 that's something that's used by DOE for large 13 manufacturers. 14 And what we have put on the table so far is 15 going back to the AEDMs. And we were discussing that 16 and the items we have agreed on. And we talked about 17 eight validation classes for CRE, being self-contained 18 open refrigerators, self-contained open freezers, 19 remote open refrigerators, remote open freezers, self20 contained closed refrigerators, self-contained close 21 freezers, remote closed refrigerators, and remote 22 closed freezers. So basically that would cover all of

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 11 1 the products, would fall into one of those eight 2 classes. 3 From that point, we were moving forward with 4 if you were a large manufacturer, if you have products 5 in four or fewer validation classes, DOE would select 6 two models annually. That would just be the number of 7 units. 8 If you have products in five or more 9 validation classes, it would be four models annually if 10 you are a large manufacturer. And I have this in 11 writing in email. And we just sent it out towards the 12 end, as I think Mary said, and trying to get all the 13 feedback here before we forward it on to folks at DOE 14 and the rest of the groups here. 15 So that's for large manufacturers, it would 16 be, again, just summarizing, two if you have four or 17 fewer validation products and four or fewer validation 18 classes, four models annually if you're in five or more 19 validation classes. And there is a logical separation 20 there as far as validation classes because if you build 21 all self- contained, you would fall in the one half. 22 And if you're remote or -- there's a logical break

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 12 1 there between four and five. 2 For small manufacturers with less than 7 or 3 15 employees, if you have products in 4 or fewer, you 4 would have 1 model annually. If you have five or more, 5 you would have two models annually. So if you're a 6 small manufacturer, you make a limited number of 7 models, you would only have to validate one unit 8 annually, which is - - I think we're in agreement that 9 that's as low as we would be comfortable going. And 10 that would be for four. And we don't think that that's 11 an undue burden to put on small manufacturers. 12 As I mentioned, we're also talking. 13 Following to that point is, should there be -- if a 14 manufacturer has a failure to -- and, again, even, as 15 we talked about yesterday, the devil is in the details. 16 You know, what is a failure is a failure. Outside of 17 your rated value is a failure, you know, for our case, 18 above the minimum standard or the minimum energy 19 consumption. 20 So we're again getting into that a little 21 bit, a discussion of the details should there be -- 22 basically, we're putting out there -- and I don't know

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 13 1 that we're completely decided on this yet -- something 2 along the lines of there's one test within two years 3 that results in a failure to meet the federal standard, 4 in addition to the fact that that product would 5 potentially be under penalties because our 6 understanding is -- and, really, what we got to, again, 7 in part of the discussion is what the validation 8 program becomes is as manufacturers, we're doing some 9 spot checks. We're doing spot checking for DOE every 10 year because obviously whatever comes out of the 11 validation testing from whatever group, DOE if it's 12 reported back that it's a failure or if it's certified, 13 you have to take the actions that you have to take as a 14 result of that just like if you did the test yourself. 15 So there are going to be penalties that manufacturers 16 are going to have to deal with whether it was an AEDM, 17 whether it was, you know, just done by testing. 18 They're going to have to deal with that. 19 So our question to ourselves was, in addition 20 to that, will you be subject there? Do we want to 21 increase the burden of validation because now we have 22 set a relatively low, what we think are relatively low,

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14 1 numbers potentially. Should there be additional 2 validation testing required if you fail to meet, if one 3 test fails within two years. What we were moving 4 towards was basically doubling the burden for two years 5 if you met. We haven't solidified on those numbers, but 6 that is kind of the direction we're headed in. 7 MR. HON: Well, we also looked at a couple of 8 other things. As far as definition of a failure, we 9 would fall back under the same process we when through 10 with the AEDMs, which would be right to look at the 11 tests, right to look at secondary testing, the full 12 load there, before it would be considered an absolute 13 failure. 14 MS. BARHYDT: It sounds like you all made 15 some progress. You all are very measured, but, I mean, 16 it sounds like you all have put some real proposals on 17 the table to think about. And it sounds like you all 18 have gone back to other people to get some additional 19 feedback. So, I mean, it sounds very positive to me. 20 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. I think so. Just real 21 quick, yes, we made it. And the reason I think we are 22 standoffish about that a little bit is I think we're

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 15 1 feeling almost like we're taking maybe one and a half 2 steps forward, one step back. And so we're going back, 3 which is good. We're kind of going back and 4 questioning ourselves when we sit here. 5 And originally we said, hey, yeah. We should 6 have additional penalties. And then we said, well, you 7 know, what would the objections be to that? So, you 8 know, we're trying to be reserved and have. We're 9 moving forward on it. 10 So it's I think a slower process in some ways 11 than we thought it might be, but I think it's all good 12 stuff that we're discussing here in representing the 13 industry. 14 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. I guess maybe 15 we need some further direction from DOE with respect to 16 doing a verification program and what should be the 17 focus of the verification program. Should it be just 18 focusing on if we don't understand it? Should it be 19 focusing on everything that the manufacturers certify 20 to DOE? And I think that clarity is needed here. 21 MS. BARHYDT: I think it should be on 22 everything that is certified to DOE. The manufacturer

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 16 1 makes those statements under penalty of perjury. They 2 are making representations to the federal government 3 and to consumers about the efficiency of their 4 products. And I think that the verification testing 5 should be verifying all of those statements. 6 MR. EISNER: Others have some quick comments? 7 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I 8 guess I just need some further information from DOE on, 9 you know, what -- I mean, this is probably taking us 10 back to the first meeting, but I thought yesterday we 11 took several steps back. So everything that we have 12 come up with during these meetings is going to cause a 13 significant increase in cost to all the manufacturers 14 that are affected. So I am trying to understand what 15 the DOE objective is. We're making a lot of changes in 16 implementing a lot of new processes to solve what or to 17 address what at significant cost increases to 18 manufacturers. 19 So from our company, we have always agreed 20 that there needs to be some verification testing, which 21 is why we are a member of AHRI. And that's been, you 22 know, working well. And, you know, it gives me some

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 17 1 assurance that the people that I am competing with 2 against in the marketplace are playing by the same set 3 of rules. But we have changed a tremendous amount of 4 rules and regulations. And now we're going to have 5 this government website. 6 I'm just not sure what the objective is and 7 what is the issue we are trying to address except to 8 change everything for the sake of change or, you know, 9 when we get through this process, are we going to have 10 a much better assurance of the products in the 11 marketplace. I mean, I don't think it was bad before. 12 I don't think there's -- I haven't seen articles in the 13 New York Times or the Washington Post saying that, you 14 know, commercial water heater and boiler manufacturers 15 are costing consumers millions of dollars because 16 they're putting out illegal products. So if we need to 17 do some things, you know, I think we're willing to 18 address that, but these changes are going to cost these 19 companies millions and millions and millions of 20 dollars. And I'm not sure, you know, we have really 21 gained anything. And so I think DOE needs to better 22 define what it is they're looking for. And if it's just

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 18 1 to get a web so that, you know, people have a website 2 where they can, you know, troll data in a more 3 efficient manner, then I think that's what we need to 4 be working towards. 5 But, you know, I am very discouraged, 6 probably the most discouraged I've been since I've been 7 to all of these meetings, because I don't see any 8 progress in what we're doing. I don't see us making 9 any improvements in the process. I don't think that 10 anything that we're coming up with is an improvement 11 over what we're doing today. All I see is that it's 12 going to cost my company a lot more money to comply. 13 And I don't know for what purpose. 14 And so I guess that's what I'm looking for 15 for DOE. Sometimes I think maybe we're focusing on the 16 wrong objective. I mean, if it's to make sure that 17 people have additional information so they control 18 data, then let's focus on how we can get that 19 information and meet those needs. But to go through 20 all of these enormous changes, this is going to change 21 how my company does all of our certification and 22 testing and groups our products. And it's going to

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 19 1 change our bills of material and how we do all of that. 2 And, you know, what's the purpose? And I guess I just 3 don't understand that. And I'm very discouraged from 4 the whole beginning of this process. And I'm not sure 5 that the working group is -- you know, at this point, 6 I'm not seeing any success in the future on how we're 7 ever going to get to a place because I don't know that 8 we really even understand the question. 9 And so I'll say end of rant, but I think it 10 is a very important -- I am just very discouraged by 11 the whole thing. And I don't think that we're getting 12 anywhere. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So there was a lot 14 there. 15 MS. MEYERS: Thank you. I needed to unload. 16 MS. BARHYDT: DOE sees a great deal of value 17 in having manufacturers certify the compliance of their 18 products. What we have found in the residential market 19 and with other commercial products that are already 20 certifying is that the active certification increases 21 awareness within the industry. It raises issues with 22 test procedures. It addresses questions regarding

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 20 1 scope. Just the mere existence of a certification 2 requirement has improved the DOE regulations and 3 clarity within the marketplace. So, just as a 4 baseline, we see a great deal of value in 5 certification. 6 The other part of certification is that it is 7 a statement from a manufacturer to the federal 8 government about the efficiency of their product. And 9 our experience is that manufacturers take that 10 seriously in a way that they don't take just 11 representations of what they stick on their website 12 seriously. And so it lends a layer of certainty, a 13 level of certainty to the Department that when people 14 make these statements to us, they really mean them. 15 And there really is something behind them. 16 Having a certification requirement also gives 17 the Department a tool where manufacturers are not 18 making statements that are backed by test data. And it 19 gives us a hook with which to say, "Well, you said 20 this. Show us the data." And we can look at the data 21 and see whether or not the product is actually 22 compliant and whether or not they have done the testing

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 21 1 they were supposed to do to come up with that number. 2 And so, again, that provides the Department a greater 3 feeling of certainty that the representations being 4 made in the market are accurate. And the public then 5 can also feel like there is a greater level of 6 certainty about the representations that manufacturers 7 are making. So those are all reasons why certification 8 is important to us. 9 DOE initially proposed certification 10 requirements for these products in 2010 -- actually, it 11 may have been 2009 with an effective date of January 1, 12 2010. And we didn't get the OMB PRA. And so that rule 13 never went into effect. 14 We then did a rulemaking where it was going 15 to kick in July 7th, 2011 -- June 7th, somewhere around 16 there -- July 5th, -- thank you -- 2011. And what we 17 heard from you guys is that we're not in a position 18 where we can actually certify our products. There were 19 issues of we have not done testing that is required. 20 And so the Department has extended that deadline 21 several times. And from our perspective, it is time. 22 It is time for the manufacturers to have test data

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 22 1 underlying the representations that they are making 2 because you are all making representations about the 3 efficiency of your products. And we think that it is 4 past time for there to be data behind that. And so for 5 us, that is an essential goal of this, to come up with 6 a solution, so that all of you are in a market where 7 you know and we know that all of those representations 8 have test data behind them. And part of this has been 9 getting AEDMs for products like CRE, where there 10 historically has not been an opportunity for them to do 11 simulations to reduce their test burden. And so that 12 has been a key part of this process. 13 The other really big issue was basic model 14 and the realization that AHRI members did not define 15 basic model at all the way the Department did. And we 16 have gone through extensive discussions about what it 17 means to be a basic model and what things count and 18 which things don't count. You have raised issues for 19 us that are not covered by the test procedure that we 20 weren't aware of. And, again, this goes to the -- when 21 manufacturers have to certify, we find out things that 22 we can address. And that way we can make sure that,

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23 1 whether you're an AHRI member or a non-AHRI member, 2 everybody has the same understanding of what it is that 3 is supposed to be tested or not tested. And we have 4 said within the context of the negotiations that if we 5 come up with a resolution, there are certain ways that 6 we will deal with some of those issues. And some of 7 them are through enforcement guidance, that we will 8 agree not to test certain things. 9 But at the end of the day, the Department's 10 view is that all products, all models, all designs 11 should meet the standard. And I don't think that 12 coming out of this negotiation, we're going to be there 13 yet. 14 We are working with you. And I think that we 15 have given a whole lot. So I am very surprised to hear 16 from you that you are frustrated and that we have had 17 this massive impact on the way that you do business 18 when we have given and given and given on basic model 19 and said, "Okay. We won't test this. We won't test 20 this. We won't test this." 21 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I was 22 very encouraged by today's meeting in our breakout

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 24 1 session. I think the boilers and water heater group 2 made a good bit of progress. We took a little bit 3 different approach than we had taken before. 4 It was obvious we weren't going to reach 5 consensus. So we started documenting where our 6 differences were so that we can forward that 7 information to you and you are going to see there are 8 wide ranges of what our expectations and our hopes are 9 for this process. So I think this has been very 10 beneficial. And I am very encouraged by the progress 11 we made this morning. Yesterday was rough. Yesterday 12 was absolutely rough, but this morning we made a lot of 13 progress. And I am definitely not willing to give up 14 on this. 15 And I encourage all of us to take a more 16 positive, outgoing approach to this so that we can be a 17 part of this process because manufacture, it's going to 18 happen whether we want it to or not. Just realize it. 19 End of rant. 20 MS. MEYERS: So I guess my response, Laura, 21 is that the regulatory burden that the manufacturers 22 have in this room is exceedingly high. And we are

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25 1 imposing more regulatory burdens. And I am not sure 2 that the outcome is more effective. 3 I agree that, you know, if the Department, 4 you know, feels that there needs to be test data behind 5 the statements -- I mean, that was what you said. I 6 don't object to that. But, I mean, the way we will 7 move forward with certifying and verifying products is 8 going to be vastly different. And I just want to make 9 sure that, you know, the regulatory burden that is 10 being imposed on manufacturers is actually going to 11 achieve a better marketplace. And that's where I don't 12 know that we are weighing what we are doing here. 13 I know, even in my decisions, you know, you 14 are in a negotiation. You agree to something. But at 15 the end of the day, are you getting a better system? 16 Are you going to have a marketplace that is going to 17 make sure that you have better products and compliance 18 out there being sold in the commerce? And, you know, 19 just because we want more data, is the data really 20 going to actually improve what we have today? 21 It makes it difficult when you are spending 22 well in excess -- you know, for Rheem, we publicly

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 26 1 stated that for 80 percent of our R&D dollars are to 2 meet federal regulations. This is only adding to that. 3 And, you know, the regulatory burden that these whole 4 actions are taking on these manufacturers, is it going 5 to improve what we have there at the cost? And I think 6 we need to take that, you know, take a step back and 7 say, what is it we're trying to address? I mean, I'm 8 all for, you know, continuous improvement. And if we 9 need to address test procedures to make sure, you know, 10 products are more accurately tested, you know, that is 11 one thing, but this is kind of a whole new way of doing 12 business moving forward. And at the end of the day, 13 I'm not sure that it's done anything but increased the 14 burden on manufacturers. 15 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I 16 just want to remark that we had a happy meeting with 17 HVAC commercial manufacturers. 18 So I am sorry you were at the -- but one of 19 the things that we are going to recommend, actually, is 20 that all the commercial manufacturers should be part of 21 a Department-approved program for verification so that 22 there actually wouldn't be the only additional

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27 1 requirement of us from DOE would be enforcement or if 2 they want to do assessment training or assessment 3 training. So, at least on the commercial HVAC side, we 4 would not be promoting or proposing any additional test 5 burden. That should ease a little bit. 6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And, Karen, I 7 listened carefully to your very thoughtful remarks and 8 find that I think this is the first time that you have 9 been seeing the half empty and I have been seeing the 10 half full. I think it is worth revisiting, as Laura 11 started, a couple of things that really have happened. 12 And I take this from a very long, long perspective, 13 recognizing that there are transition issues that look 14 huge right now. 15 And the first thing is that I started this 16 with a feeling that much of this process was going to 17 be about, frankly, educating DOE about what was being 18 done across the spectrum of industries and what the 19 particular problems were. And I don't know how to say 20 this other than I have felt that I was in the room with 21 a different Ashley, that I have felt that DOE was being 22 much more receptive and flexible than I had ever seen.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 28 1 Now, it may have been going from a ten to an 2 eight, but I have felt a different attitude. 3 MS. MEYERS: I agree. 4 MR. SACHS: And that's been manifested in 5 some things that I think are pretty important. It was 6 a pretty tough pill for me and I suspect more so for 7 the Department to recognize that having products that 8 we know are likely to fail in commerce is something we 9 should look away from because otherwise we are going to 10 get really bad uncoated coils out in coastal 11 environments and things like that. 12 The Department has recognized that the cost 13 of reengineering or losing availability of specialty 14 products is much higher than the cost of allowing some 15 stuff that might be marginally below standards. And I 16 think that is a huge concession that we can't let 17 Congress know about. I think that the whole process of 18 thinking about the AEDMs is something I have regarded 19 as being an investment in enabling industry to do much 20 more work virtually with simulation, rather than with 21 physical tests. And I think that is an incredibly 22 important thing for the evolution of the industry for

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29 1 lowering the cost of design and that ultimately, once 2 we get past this transition, like from water heater, 3 residential water heater EF, today to whatever it comes 4 out next year, I think this will release a great deal 5 of ability to try solutions and innovate. 6 So I think these are very substantial 7 attainments and almost justified by themselves the wear 8 and tear on my derriere of sitting here every day. So 9 this time, I am seeing a half-full cup. And I hope 10 that is a little cheering. It's not as though I have 11 gotten all of the things I wanted. 12 Thanks. 13 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I came here 14 for a distinct purpose. Our industry really doesn't 15 have a strong industry-active network which has its own 16 program setup. As such, we have to look at some of our 17 competitors on a routine basis. And, unfortunately, 18 the standards have been written for a period of time, 19 going back to California and EPACT 2005, continuing on. 20 And when we do testing of our competitors, whether it 21 be for ENERGY STAR levels or for DOE levels, we're 22 seeing at least 25 percent of the units that we test of

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 30 1 our competitors who are not meeting one of those 2 standards which they are publishing, too. That is not 3 good. 4 So when we came here, our objectives was to 5 close the holes. And the only way to close the holes 6 is to spend some money. And I don't like to spend the 7 corporate money. I would much rather have it flow 8 backwards. But if we don't close these holes up, we're 9 going to continue to have substandard product hitting 10 the market, diluting the market, and taking profits 11 away from those of us who do it the right way. 12 MS. MEYERS: Well, just to be clear, my 13 comments did not include commercial refrigeration 14 because we are not in that market. 15 MR. EISNER: Any other comments on this? 16 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Can you hear me 17 okay? 18 MR. EISNER: Yes. 19 MR. THARP: I would like to weigh in and 20 comment on some of the issues that were discussed, too. 21 I do want to reiterate what Harvey said in that I feel 22 the Department as well as everyone on the working group

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 31 1 has come into this working group following the charter 2 of negotiating in good faith. And I think overall I 3 appreciate what the Department has done as well as the 4 energy advocates, the utilities, and the various 5 manufacturer groups. I have even commented in internal 6 communications to the extent that I feel the Department 7 is really working to work with industry. 8 So I just want to reiterate that I think we 9 have made good progress and think we should continue 10 working diligently. And perhaps it may be meeting to 11 do things such as more of the breakout sessions or 12 breaking out requirements by product category more in 13 order to get to the final goal. 14 I would like to address the comment that 15 Harvey made about, you know, distributing product in 16 commerce that may not be compliant. I would like to 17 state that I believe industry position is that the base 18 model is what is being regulated, the basic model. And 19 we feel that all basic models, as we distribute, are in 20 compliance. And they are in compliance basically 21 because of the AHRI verification program. And, you 22 know, that is one of the reasons why we as HVAC

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32 1 manufacturers -- as was stated yesterday in the 2 presentation, AHRI has been around a long time and has 3 been doing it, its own certification/verification. And 4 that seems to work very well for the HVAC industry. 5 And, again, I just want to reiterate that we 6 believe that the products that we are distributing in 7 commerce, the basic models, are in compliance with the 8 regulations. 9 MR. SACHS: Thanks, Rusty. 10 MR. THARP: End of rant. 11 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 12 It seems to me what the major sticking point seems to 13 be now -- everything else went fairly well with the 14 certification, some of the basic models. But it's 15 really a question of the verification. It seems like a 16 lot of the issues associated with the cost of 17 verification. And that is really the main sticking 18 point here. 19 So, I mean, essentially what it looks like 20 most of the time, we mirror somewhat the AHRI programs 21 on the other issues. To the extent that it mirrors it 22 on verification will be how well it is accepted by

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 33 1 industry and what the testing burden will be. So it 2 seems like a solution is kind of going along with 3 something very similar to what AHRI has as their 4 verification. 5 And I should say that is on the commercial 6 side of air conditioning equipment, but industries that 7 don't have a strong verification program don't seem to 8 be as put off by this, just like what Charlie was 9 saying here. So, I mean, I think it is more figuring 10 out a way that works for the Commercial Air Handlers 11 Association that is very involved in the AHRI programs, 12 really, that is the solution to the problem. 13 MR. EISNER: Other comments? 14 MS. BARHYDT: So, just to sort of recap where 15 we are in the overall negotiation, we sent our AEDM 16 package up to ASRAC. And ASRAC has sent that to DOE. 17 We have discussed and voted on basic model definitions 18 for the CRE water heaters, boilers. We have not done 19 HVAC, at least the unitary. We might have done the 20 SPVUs and PTACs and VRFs. And the only remaining issue 21 on the basic model for the HVAC is the motor issue. 22 And then the one last remaining issue that I

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 34 1 am aware of is the schedule for certification. So 2 there was a suggestion that we should discuss and vote 3 the schedule for certification, but I don't know if 4 HVAC is ready to do that before we vote on basic model 5 or not. 6 MR. THARP: Well, this is Rusty. I think the 7 commercial HVAC was at 18 months, which is the longest. 8 So if the group is willing to accept the 18 months for 9 commercial HVAC, I would submit that commercial HVAC is 10 ready to vote, of course, subject to everybody else's 11 thoughts. 12 MR. EISNER: Can we get the schedule up on 13 the screen? Is that what you're going to do? 14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 15 MR. THARP: And to satisfy Frank, are you 16 bringing it on the screen? 17 MS. BARHYDT: I'm trying. Where is it? 18 MR. EISNER: I thought there was agreement 19 that it was on your website. 20 MS. BARHYDT: It is, but I would have to log 21 in as myself. And I don't have all of the URL with me. 22 She has got it on the thumb drive.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 35 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry. Coming. 2 (Off record discussion.) 3 MS. BARHYDT: What's it called? That one? 4 MR. THARP: Certification dates. It's the 5 Excel file. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you. 7 I think there had also been some discussion 8 CRE might split up. Did anything come of that? 9 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I 10 think we were hoping to keep us all together under 15, 11 but if that was going to be a problem, the discussion 12 was supposed to go further. But I think keeping us at 13 15 is the best move. 14 MR. HON: There's disagreement on that topic. 15 MR. EISNER: All right. Any discussion on 16 this or do we want to go right to a vote? Anybody got 17 any thoughts? Phillip? 18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip, HTP. What were the 19 breakpoints between the small and large package 20 boilers? Can we have that documented on there so that 21 we'll remember it? Was that the two and a half? 22 MR. EISNER: What is this?

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 1 MR. STEPHENS: 2.5 million. 2 MR. EISNER: Anybody recall a number being 3 assigned to that? I thought 2.5 was what we -- 4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. The 5 number we had been using previously was 2.5 million 6 BTUs. 7 MR. EISNER: Right. 8 MR. MYERS: That is the natural breakpoint 9 that changes between thermal and combustion in the test 10 method. 11 MR. STEPHENS: So the first one is less than 12 or equal to? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Less than or equal. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Thank you. 15 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? 16 MS. BARHYDT: I think the -- 17 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Just to 18 reiterate, the dates are based on the -- from the final 19 AEDM rule. Unless something changes in the other 20 discussion, then those months are go to after the final 21 CCE rule. 22 MR. EISNER: And that is reflected on the

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 37 1 chart? 2 MR. THARP: Yes, sir. 3 MS. MEYERS: I think from my perspective, the 4 18 months on the HVAC is kind of predicated on what 5 happens with the motor discussion. So I can't agree to 6 18 months until I know what we're going to do with the 7 motors. So I could not vote on that. The rest of 8 those commercial water heaters, small package boilers, 9 and large package boilers I could agree to, but the 10 HVAC I can't. I would have to wait on. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Bob Whitwell from 12 Carrier. We have the same concern. I mean, furnaces 13 VRF were okay. It's the products where we have the 14 alternate motors that we have concerns about because we 15 just don't know where that is going to end up. 16 MR. EISNER: So if we put a footnote on there 17 saying "Pending decision on motors"? 18 MS. BARHYDT: I suggest we vote on everything 19 else except HVAC and just hold off on that vote. 20 MR. EISNER: Okay. 21 MR. SACHS: Laura, there's some -- be more 22 specific since there are some classes of HVAC like the

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 38 1 ones listed, CRAC, SPVU, and water source, where we 2 have agreement. So it's basically the unitary packaged 3 equipment. Thanks. 4 MR. EISNER: We could have a footnote 5 defining what is not covered yet. 6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Karen, 7 could you repeat your concern? I couldn't quite hear 8 it. 9 MS. MEYERS: Yes. So for HVAC, the 18 months 10 will be predicated on what happens with the motor 11 discussion. And if we have to or if we can or cannot 12 classify high static and standard motors within the 13 same group, that could be a significant burden if that 14 doesn't turn out in a way that, you know, is favorable 15 to how we do it today. So having to totally come up 16 with new AEDMs and new groupings based upon the motor 17 type would be a huge undertaking for us. 18 MR. MYERS: Thank you. 19 MS. MEYERS: And I don't think we could do it 20 in 18 months. 21 MR. MYERS: Yes. 22 MS. MEYERS: I don't know what we're going to

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 39 1 decide on yet. 2 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. And I 3 think water source heat pumps and possibly CRAC may 4 share the same motor issues with packaged HVAC. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: They do on water source. 6 MR. SACHS: But we can include SPVUs since 7 they are hardly represented here? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Actually, I mean, Carrier has 9 SPVUs, but -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: No. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: I thought -- we branded them 12 for a while. And so I have some experience. This is 13 Jill at Trane. They don't have oversized motor 14 combinations. They're very cabinet-limited, kind of 15 like PTACs are because they are a free-blow situation 16 in a lot of cases. 17 (Off record discussion.) 18 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I 19 think you need to add air-cooled to your HVAC, not just 20 water- cooled/evap-cooled. Right? 21 MR. SACHS: Mark, can you repeat that? 22 MR. FLY: I said I think you need to add air-

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40 1 cooled as well as water-cooled and evap-cooled on HVAC 2 definition. 3 MR. EISNER: CRAC was the third one, I think. 4 MR. FLY: Or did I miss it? 5 MS. BARHYDT: It's there. 6 MR. WHITWELL: She just put it there. 7 MS. DEGITSZ: It's there. 8 MR. FLY: Oh, okay. 9 MR. EISNER: Didn't someone suggest CRAC, C10 R-A-C? 11 MS. DEGITSZ: We're checking to see if it's 12 in the notes. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So nobody raised that issue 14 when we were talking about CRACs. 15 MR. EISNER: Does anybody have a response to 16 that? 17 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. Can we 18 look at the PowerPoint presentation -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 20 MR. AMRANE: -- where we agreed on those 21 basic model definitions? 22 MS. DEGITSZ: What are we looking for?

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 41 1 MS. BARHYDT: CRAC. It will say "CRAC" up at 2 the top. 3 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 4 The CRAC units, they're not ducted typically. So the 5 high static pressure is not going to be a problem 6 except you're switching the motors out and that's why 7 it's not listed. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MR. AMRANE: Can you go to the SPVU? 10 MS. BARHYDT: It is on SPVU. 11 MR. AMRANE: Yes. It's here. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 13 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any concerns about these 14 three being temporarily not covered? I assume for 15 under 15 for CRE, we can take off the parenthetical 16 now. 17 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I believe 18 that there should be a division there. The self19 contained units were put in federal regulations. 20 Excuse me. They were passed by Congress in 2005 for 21 actual requirements in 2007. These were the same 22 numbers that were required by California and 17 other

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 42 1 states starting in 2001 and then some updates and 2 updates and updates until we got to the 2007 numbers. 3 And I do not see the need for 15 months for something 4 that should have been done which would equate to almost 5 9 years ago by the time this would have been in effect. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So what are you proposing? 7 MR. HON: I would say splitting the 2005 8 EPACT products, which would be self-contained solid 9 door, glass door, refrigerators and freezers, always at 10 a 6 to 9- month window. 11 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I 12 have to disagree. Six to nine would be -- what I am 13 concerned about is companies that are waiting to get 14 into labs. Charlie had before presented. The labs were 15 overbooked. There would be some problems with them 16 getting in. You know, a lot of companies, for whatever 17 reason, may not have started because they were waiting 18 for final verification for everything. But I still 19 think we need to take into consideration that that 20 might be too quick of a lead time. And so we don't 21 have a consensus. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So one thing that was pointed

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43 1 out to me a day or two ago, the DOE test procedure 2 explicitly permits the use of tests that were done in 3 accordance with NSF test procedures at the integrated 4 average temperatures and ambient conditions used for 5 NSF testing in place of DOE-prescribed integrated 6 average temperatures and ambient conditions provided 7 that they result in a more stringent test, which from 8 the statements that you all have made -- no. I'm 9 seeing a head shake now. 10 MR. BAUMAN: For self-contained units -- and 11 Charlie can probably talk to this better than I -- you 12 are talking about the additional final rule that was 13 really, I guess, 2012 or 2011. That was more to ice 14 cream, I believe, freezers, the lower temperature, the 15 temperature setting. If you're doing an NSF, you could 16 do an NSF test, I guess, but the NSF test is 100 17 degrees. Nobody is going to do an energy test at 100 18 degrees when everybody else is rating at 75 degrees. 19 It doesn't help that NSF test would be the same as a 20 DOE test. 21 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. The test 22 procedure is identical, but the conditions are

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 44 1 drastically different. So they would be far more 2 stringent under the NSF process than the standard AHRI 3 1200 conditions, which are specified in the 4 regulations. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So, Mary, what I was hearing 6 from Charlie, though, was that, granted, before there 7 were no AEDMs, but now there will be AEDMs. And it 8 will be a dramatically reduced test burden. I think 9 all of those actually all fit within one AEDM category. 10 No? 11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. It is split into four 12 distinctive categories by the DOE; correct? I don't 13 see Ashley in the room, but they could possibly be 14 explained into one AEDM, though. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 16 MR. HON: It's physically possible. 17 MS. BARHYDT: For the AEDMs -- 18 MR. HON: Yes. 19 MS. BARHYDT: -- we said that you could group 20 those. 21 MR. HON: Yes. You could -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: That would be two tests in

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45 1 order to have an AEDM that meets DOE requirements. And 2 they have been regulated since at least 2010. 3 MR. HON: 2007, 2-0-0-7. 4 MS. BARHYDT: '7. So manufacturers don't 5 have two tests done in accordance with the DOE test 6 procedure over the last five, six, seven years. 7 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. This is Jeff Bauman from 8 National. I will take that one. We are going to put 9 all of the cards on the table here. We had talked 10 about 15 months to keep it simple. I think within our 11 group, we had discussed if we wanted to split it again. 12 And if you kind of go back to -- my concern about this 13 all along has been confusion, more confusion, more. 14 You know, we're splitting this. You know, we are 15 splitting basic model groups. I just want to keep it 16 simple. That is why I have been on the board with 15 17 months for CRE. Maybe somebody has got advantage of a 18 few more months, a few less months, or whatever. To 19 me, it was good. 20 You know, if DOE is really interested in 21 making that a division there, as Charlie has expressed 22 his desire, again, if we go back to, instead of calling

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 46 1 it EPACT splits or whatever, you go back to the 2 validation classes that we have already discussed as 3 part of AEDMs and if you take out self-contained closed 4 models, which I think is for I guess two out of that, 5 self-contained closed refrigerators and freezers, and 6 what we have talked about in all of the discussions I 7 have heard is that if there is a split, it will be 12 8 and 18 months proposed. Yes, people have had -- and 9 we, Charlie, we have all got a lot of test data. We 10 were trying to send it to you guys and finding email 11 addresses to submit it to back then. Had we been kept 12 retesting and doing all of this stuff. Manufacturers 13 haven't been doing it. I mean, even manufacturers who 14 have done a lot of testing are still going to have 15 paperwork to do submittals, making sure they have got 16 everything in line. It's, I mean, maybe Charlie has 17 got a legion of people there ready to go, but I think 18 even Charlie is going to take more than a couple of 19 weeks to do this. And I don't think 12 months to get 20 all of your paperwork, I mean, as we're seeing to -- 21 people don't even understand necessarily what AEDMs 22 are. I think they would be as happy as we were if they

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 47 1 understood as much as we were that the option for that 2 -- I think there is still going to be a lot of 3 confusion. 4 I think, as I have said also, my concern on 5 this is how much negative feedback we're going to see 6 when we present all of this after NOPR. I think if you 7 did anything six to nine months, you are going to hear 8 the top of the hill screaming from everybody. 9 I think, as we have discussed, if Charlie 10 really has that desire to split and DOE has that desire 11 to split it, I think self-contained closed models, 12 12 months, everything else 18 months is what we felt was a 13 reasonable split. And, you know, I think that is 14 absolutely reasonable. And I think there are a lot of 15 reasons that that makes sense as far as not going less 16 than that. 17 MR. HON: Well, I am sitting here looking at 18 it saying okay. We're talking about after publication 19 of the rules, which we hope is by the end of the year. 20 So if we look at nine months after that, we're talking 21 in excess of 12 months from today, probably 14 months 22 from today. And the test labs were booked through

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 48 1 January the last time we checked, which was just two 2 weeks ago. So if people could get their lab stuff in 3 to laboratories at a reasonable time window, February, 4 March, April, they would still have the better part of 5 six months to complete their project of paperwork. 6 MS. DANE: This is Mary. I have to put on my 7 NAFEM hat, not my Traulsen hat. And that is that there 8 are a lot of people that are not represented. I mean, 9 we're trying to reach them. We do the same thing like 10 you guys are doing blasts. We notify NAFEM. We go 11 through the steps and things like that. And, 12 unfortunately, there are just companies that are way 13 too small. 14 I know that Charlie has a very aggressive 15 timeline. And I don't believe we should drop anywhere 16 below 12 months in order to give the rest of these 17 people, you know, enough time to get into it. 18 We're not trying to penalize people. And I 19 know Charlie and I have a different philosophy over 20 that. And I respect his opinions, too, but I am just 21 saying from wearing more than one hat, I don't think we 22 can drop below 12 months.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 49 1 MR. EISNER: Any other comments on this 2 issue? 3 MS. BARHYDT: So is the preference the 12/18 4 or is the preference the 15? I thought I heard there 5 was some concern about simplification as well. 6 MS. DANE: I think that the 15 was meant to 7 be consistent. You know, some would have more 8 advantage than others, but 15 seemed to be under the 9 KISS method of keeping it as simple as possible. 10 MR. EISNER: Let me ask about the second 11 parenthetical under "HVAC," same one potentially 12 considered. Is that still necessary until we resolve 13 the motor issue or is that something that can be taken 14 off? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It does depend on how you 16 classify those motors. 17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other issues or are 18 we ready to vote? I would suggest right now based on 19 the issue on CRE that we vote on each individual line, 20 see where we are. The first one, the six -- 21 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 22 You know, one of the things I would consider, Charlie

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 50 1 was talking earlier about how they have challenge 2 testing or simply a version of challenge testing or 25 3 percent of the equipment, the competitors' equipment 4 that he is testing, is not meeting requirements. And 5 so essentially by extending this period, it's that much 6 longer the stuff is out on the market that is not 7 really meeting requirements. And, you know, I think by 8 keeping maybe a more aggressive schedule on it, we can 9 actually encourage compliance sooner, rather than 10 later. 11 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I 12 don't want anybody to take this wrong, but I keep 13 hearing statements being used by "We notice" and "We've 14 seen" and "We think" and "There might be." Does 15 anybody have any numerical proof other than anecdotal 16 stories about how many people are sneaking around? 17 Because I just want to say that we're trying to be as 18 honest as possible here, and we're supposed to be not 19 penalizing the people doing this right. 20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 21 think, Louis, this has nothing to do with the 22 verification anyway. So I don't think it will change.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 51 1 If people are cheating today, they're going to cheat. 2 I mean, I don't think it's going to change anything 3 because, you know, a lot came of verification. 4 MR. STARR: Okay. 5 MR. AMRANE: I think the proposal that Jeff 6 has is a good proposal. I mean, if you want an 7 accelerated date, then that's really for the self8 contained because people, like you said, regulations 9 have been in place for a long time but then give 18 10 months for the rest of the product. 11 MR. HON: I will agree to no more than 12 12 months on the self-contained. That's all I can go to. 13 That to me is an extreme compromised position, which 14 would be basically the end of next year. I don't like 15 to see that because ours is not anecdotal stories. We 16 have hard test data. We spent a lot of money testing 17 competitive units, buying them on the open market, and 18 have turned in many of those same reports to the ENERGY 19 STAR group, which had been investigated. And there are 20 issues out there in the market. And that's what we're 21 concerned about. 22 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 52 1 Ashley, can you maybe speak to what Karim was saying 2 there, that his was kind of his summation of what he 3 said is that more or less is he on the right track 4 about that? Is that -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: Which part? 6 MR. AMRANE: (Off-microphone.) 7 MR. STARR: The verification part. Change 8 itself is not going to affect that or -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. No. This is 10 certification only. 11 MR. BAUMAN: You can certify it however you 12 want to certify it. It won't make you more honest. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So I don't entirely agree with 14 that. I mean, what we have seen is that the -- I think 15 it is fair to say that the rates of compliance have 16 gone up as products have come under certification 17 requirements. Some of that has been just by the sheer 18 fact that they had never tested their products ever. 19 And when they tested them, they discovered that they 20 weren't compliant. So it has been our experience that 21 certification does increase compliance. 22 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with EarthJustice. I

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 53 1 had a question. We're talking about dates for 2 certification, but my assumption had been that any 3 verification requirements would run from the date of -- 4 would begin on the date of certification. Is that 5 correct? 6 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know that that is what 7 I had assumed. I guess I was thinking more along the 8 lines of all verification would start at some time, 9 some point after certification, but I don't know 10 exactly what point or when that would be. But my 11 assumption had been that it would be at some point 12 after certification, not at the time of certification. 13 And some of that is just a logistics issue of as people 14 resolve the issues of how they want to participate in a 15 verification program, if we set up requirements for a 16 DOE-approved verification program, for us to actually 17 review those and make sure that we have rigorous 18 processes before we approve somebody. So some of that 19 is just a logistics issue of making sure we have enough 20 time before those kick in. 21 MR. EISNER: How do the other CRE folks feel 22 about the current breakdown on the chart, 12 and 18?

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 54 1 Still object? Want it to be 15 or -- 2 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. I can 3 live with 12 and 18. 4 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. We 5 could probably live with 12, but, like I said, you will 6 probably get comments from manufacturers that are 7 smaller than members sitting at this table. And it's 8 going to be a problem. 9 MS. BARHYDT: I'll just hope that it won't be 10 a problem; it will be an educational opportunity for us 11 to explain AEDMs. 12 MR. BAUMAN: I'm okay with it also. 13 MR. EISNER: Okay. Keep it simple. Does 14 anybody in the room or on the phone or whatever object 15 to anything that is up here now? 16 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley, ABMA. The only 17 thing I can see is with the large package boilers. I 18 think the 18 months has got to key off us getting a 19 workable test procedure. And right now we don't have 20 one. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So it's 18 months after DOE 22 issues a final rule. And if folks are turning in their

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 1 waiver applications, we're working on them. 2 MR. HALLEY: Okay. 3 MR. EISNER: Any other issues people want to 4 raise? 5 Let's vote on this chart as it appears. Does 6 anybody object? 7 Does anybody sustain? 8 Okay. The first vote I think we've taken in 9 about two weeks, three weeks. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Let's go for motors. 11 MR. EISNER: Yes. Anybody want to vote on 12 motors now? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill with Trane. So, 14 Laura, I have a question. The 12/31 date is out there. 15 Would this, then, be published between now and then to 16 show or what? 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. My expectation is that -- 18 well, so don't let me get -- I shouldn't get ahead of 19 myself, but we have voted on all of these different 20 aspects except for the HVAC, water source heat pump, 21 and SPVU. So that package has been completed voted to 22 send to ASRAC. So hopefully, we'll get those last

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56 1 three areas voted to send to ASRAC as well. 2 But ASRAC will get the package. Assuming 3 that they approve the package and send it on to DOE, my 4 expectation is that DOE will get a notice of proposed 5 rulemaking out in time for us to deal with the December 6 31st date. 7 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. And 8 that is great, but at the same time, I think it is very 9 important for DOE to send out a notice very quickly, 10 even before you submit this NOPR, informing 11 stakeholders that the date, the 31st December date, 12 will not hold because people are asking, you know, 13 "What should we be doing?" So waiting for the NOPR 14 might be a little bit too late. 15 MS. BARHYDT: I understand your concerns. 16 And I am not suggesting that they are not without basis 17 in history, but we are going to get this rule out fast. 18 MR. AMRANE: Karim. What do you mean by 19 "fast"? 20 MR. EISNER: Can we put some dates up on here 21 and vote on it? 22 MR. AMRANE: Are we talking before the end of

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57 1 September? Are we talking October? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: I have a significant amount of 3 work to put units into the CCMS. Do I need to start 4 doing that? Because if I am assured that I am going to 5 miss the date and I'll not have my units in there -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: So if we're talking about HVAC 7

-- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: -- it has to start now. 9 MS. BARHYDT: -- we don't even have an 10 agreement for a package. So DOE is not going to be 11 extending a deadline. Until we have a consensus, until 12 there is a package, and until DOE gets a package from 13 ASRAC, there is no extension. 14 MS. MEYERS: Is that a rule or why? 15 MS. BARHYDT: DOE is committed to working 16 with you to come up with an alternative solution, but 17 absent some alternative, we have a rule. 18 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. And 19 here we are working with the assumption that we are 20 going to have a consensus. 21 MS. BARHYDT: I hope so, too. 22 MR. AMRANE: Right. So assuming we have a

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 58 1 consensus, I think what we are asking here is for DOE 2 to release a notice saying that the December 31st date 3 will not hold before you send out the NOPR. Again, if 4 you're telling me that the NOPR is going to come in two 5 weeks or three weeks, before the end of September, 6 maybe it's okay. But if we are talking about October7 November, it is going to be too late. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. It's too late. I mean, I 9 already probably can't even make the deadline with the 10 work that has to happen. 11 MS. BARHYDT: We are committed to getting the 12 rule out quickly. 13 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. Is there a 14 possibility to do the deadline extension portion of it 15 as a direct final? 16 MS. BARHYDT: I'll have to talk to Dan Cohen 17 about that. 18 MS. DANE: Could you define "direct final"? 19 MR. BALLO: Just it's essentially a final 20 rule that is also a proposed rule. So barring some 21 sort of adverse comment on the deadline extension, the 22 final rule is effective as of the date of --

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 59 1 MR. EISNER: Is it the consensus of this 2 group that no one would object to it being issued as a 3 direct final rule, which means no one would expect any 4 adverse comment? 5 MR. STEPHENS: Just what we're seeing on the 6 screen? 7 MR. EISNER: No. It's to extend the 8 compliance date of 12/31/13 or to eliminate it, 9 whatever DOE is going to do. In order to use a direct 10 final rule, they have to make a judgment call that no 11 one is likely to submit an adverse comment. So talking 12 to your people, the people you are representing around 13 the table, is it unlikely that anyone would have an 14 adverse comment if DOE issued a direct final rule 15 changing the compliance date of December 31st? 16 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 17 It would be pretty hard to know everybody. There's 18 this whole California -- well, we would try to contact 19 them. That would mean there would just need to be one 20 person out of the United States. 21 MR. EISNER: That is part of the problem with 22 the direct final rule, but it's not that there will not

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 60 1 be an adverse comment. It is that it is unlikely that 2 there would be an adverse comment. If there is an 3 adverse comment, DOE would have to withdraw it and 4 start over. So that is something to think about in 5 terms of pushing for that. 6 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. There 7 is, it seems to me, another way to do this. Laura, you 8 have mentioned that the AEDM proposal -- is that what 9 we're talking about? We're talking about that final 10 rule. 11 MS. BARHYDT: No. 12 MR. STANONIK: Okay. 13 MS. BARHYDT: The certification final rule. 14 MR. STANONIK: Okay. The AEDM proposal has 15 made it to ASRAC and is in DOE's hands. And we all 16 hope it will be published soon. Okay? If it's 17 published soon, I guess I would ask, why wouldn't in 18 that notice DOE indicate that in view of this 19 publication of this AEDM proposal, the December 31st 20 date will change. And don't say what it will change to 21 but indicate that date is now off the table and new 22 dates will be developed.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 61 1 MS. BARHYDT: It all depends on timing. If 2 we get that AEDM rule out before ASRAC gives us the 3 package, then -- 4 MR. STANONIK: All right. I guess maybe I am 5 confused. 6 MS. BARHYDT: You're assuming that the AEDM 7 rule is not going to come out for a while. 8 MR. STANONIK: No. I was assuming the AEDM 9 rule was going to come out before the certification 10 rule. That's why I was making the point. 11 MS. BARHYDT: No. What I am saying is if the 12 AEDM rule goes out before ASRAC votes out the 13 certification package -- 14 MR. STANONIK: Yes. 15 MS. BARHYDT: -- and sends it to DOE. We 16 can't commit to -- 17 MR. STANONIK: All right. Right. Okay. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 19 MR. STANONIK: All right. 20 MR. EISNER: Other comments? 21 Okay. What issue do we want to go to next? 22 MS. BARHYDT: It sounded like folks were

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62 1 making progress in the breakouts. Do you all want to 2 break out again? I know there was also some suggestion 3 that they thought that the breakouts were more 4 productive than the large group sessions, but -- 5 MR. SACHS: They sure weren't for me. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Harvey, you should go 7 participate in some of these. 8 MR. SACHS: I've been unanimously asked not 9 to. 10 (Off record discussion.) 11 MS. HOOTMAN: I would like to know what we 12 need to be doing because I think we felt we were done. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, so HVAC kind of 14 alluded to what you talked about, but I don't think we 15 all actually reported out on your final. 16 MR. EISNER: They said it was a happy 17 meeting. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So this is Jill from 19 Trane. What we said was that on the overwhelming 20 majority of the marketplace, 90 percent in dollars, 90 21 percent or greater, of commercial HVAC participates in 22 a VICP. Therefore, we felt that, you know, in

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63 1 commercial HVAC, for verification, that it has to be a 2 DAVP verification program, whether it's ones that are 3 in existence now or in the future. And if they're in 4 the future, they should have the long list of 5 requirements, which we could give you. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Those are the same ones from 7 the slide yesterday? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I think the things that 9 we added to there were adding things like requiring 10 qualification testing before a manufacturer can be 11 listed as certified under the program. That was not in 12 the previous list. We also said that you started a 20 13 percent per year audit rate for your basic model 14 groups, but we would like to explore the possibilities 15 that once you had a proven successful history, you 16 know, that you kind of reward people that are good 17 performers. But we didn't really have, you know, a per 18 se when is that, is that after five years or what is 19 it, and that the program also needs to have penalty 20 provisions, both monetary and/or audit, increased 21 audit, rates for repeated failures. So those three 22 bullets were added to the requirements. And then we

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 64 1 did go into the additional definitions that we had 2 talked about before of the build- to-order and 3 inventory were pretty much the same. 4 And just on the engineered-to-order is it's 5 not advertised in a catalogue. It's designed for a 6 specific customer. And it has no claim deficiency 7 ratings. Engineered-to-order is excluded from the 8 verification programs. And that was actually in our 9 notes from before, too. 10 Anything else, guys? 11 MR. PETERSON: Kent Peterson. I think the 12 no- claim deficiency rating was added this morning. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 14 MR. WHITWELL: The other comment we had was 15 we talked about whether there should be a column in the 16 DOE directory that would specify what the verification 17 program is that that manufacturer's products are under. 18 And that might just be for commercial HVAC, doesn't 19 necessarily have to be for all products. 20 MR. EISNER: Did you have suggested language 21 to explain it? 22 MR. WHITWELL: No. We hadn't gotten to that

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 65 1 part yet. 2 MR. FERRIOL: Sorry, Jill. This is Brian 3 with UL. One more piece that we discussed I don't know 4 if there was a concluding vote on, but the idea of 5 something to the effect of verifying. You don't show 6 up on the DOE website until your products have been 7 verified, not self- certified. Is that correct? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I said require 9 qualification testing before the manufacturer had been 10 listed as certified under a program. 11 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel. Maybe we 12 should add the word "qualification" and verification -- 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 14 MR. DOPPEL: -- just to make sure. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Do you all have something 16 written up that we can distribute? 17 MR. FERRIOL: Brian with UL. Laura, just 18 curious, was there anything that we just presented as 19 the commercial HVAC group that gives you as the 20 Department any extreme heartburn? 21 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not sure yet. I actually 22 want to read through it again and think about it.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 66 1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And there 2 obviously is a lot of attention that I will want to pay 3 to the details and to thinking about the long-term 4 ramifications. At this point, in part, because I have 5 been an observer of AHRI for a number of years, I do 6 have some concerns about some of the things I have 7 heard in terms of requirements for other verification 8 programs. 9 In particular, the trade association has a 10 very strong interest in every product that gets its 11 stamp of approval being pretty rigorously evaluated 12 before it hits the market. This is likely to be quite 13 a barrier that goes well beyond legal requirements for 14 smaller manufacturers trying new approaches. And I 15 don't think that is something that should be imposed on 16 the entire industry, even though it is an important 17 aspect of the differentiated program of the trade 18 association. 19 There is I think a fairly well-understood 20 history of situations in which the trade association's 21 approach to ratings has delayed and to some extent 22 impeded market penetration for alternative approaches

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 67 1 that would compete with mainline approaches. Again, I 2 think that this is easy to understand, and it is part 3 of the brand protection. But I am very uncomfortable 4 with requiring such specifications for all 5 manufacturers who wish to do commercial business in the 6 United States. 7 MALE SPEAKER: Harvey, I'm sorry. 8 MR. AMRANE: I'm sorry. I want to respond, 9 too, to Harvey. This is Karim with AHRI. I guess, 10 Harvey, I am not following you. I think if there is a 11 test procedure, if that product falls within the scope 12 of the certification program, then it can be tested as 13 part of the certification program. Our certification 14 programs are not just for AHRI members. They're for 15 anybody to join. So I think you're talking about the 16 innovative products for which maybe there is no test 17 procedure, but that is a different issue. That is a 18 DOE, you know -- 19 MR. DOPPEL: It's a waiver. 20 MR. AMRANE: A waiver, a request or, you 21 know, changes to test procedure. I mean -- 22 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry if I was a little vague

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 68 1 in my efforts to be terse. I am concerned about 2 barriers to entry. And let's assume for this case a 3 product that well meets a DOE specification. The 4 requirements for inclusion in the brand mark "AHRI5 certified" will be difficult for new firms. 6 And I believe that this will be seen as 7 something close to restraint of trade. Now, I am not a 8 lawyer. So I am using that term loosely. I am going 9 to do a lot more study of this issue, but at this 10 point, I think it is my obligation to share with the 11 group that there are aspects of the differentiated AHRI 12 certification program that appear to me to go well 13 beyond what the legal requirements are for introducing 14 a product into commerce. 15 MR. DOPPEL: Harvey, thanks for your position 16 on that. And that is something that we did look at and 17 discuss. And, see, we invited you this morning, too. 18 You know, we could have -- 19 MR. SACHS: I'll come next time. 20 MR. DOPPEL: But one of the things that it 21 does not -- it says that we think that a manufacturer 22 should be part of a Department-approved. It doesn't

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 69 1 say AHRI specifically. 2 MR. SACHS: I understand, but as I understood 3 Bill's presentation yesterday and the commentary around 4 that, you would require of any alternative program that 5 it have equivalent rigor to the AHRI program. 6 MR. DOPPEL: Well, we listed the points, what 7 Jill -- 8 MR. SACHS: And I'm not comfortable with that 9 requirement at this time. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. If we do break out again, 11 you know, we would love for you to join us so we can go 12 over that to try to come up with what is -- you know, 13 understand more what you think is too rigorous. But, 14 again, you know, the intent of what we were trying to 15 do was to have DOE's responsibility not in doing the 16 verification testing per se but having the Department17 approved verification programs do the verification. 18 Then that would leave DOE for the commercial HVAC only 19 to have to do either assessment or penalty testing, 20 enforcement testing. So we are trying to reduce the 21 manufacturer burden, is what we were trying to do. 22 MR. SACHS: I very much appreciate that. And

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 70 1 I think it is a good idea, in part, because I may have 2 a somewhat higher opinion of DOE's budget and ability 3 than some people in the room, but it's not unqualified. 4 So I am very much sympathetic. 5 My issue is going to be with specifics of the 6 equivalence required and how one establishes such a 7 program. 8 MR. FERRIOL: Brian with UL. Sorry, Harvey. 9 Just a couple of points. This is just what kind of 10 came out of our working group, Harvey. First point is 11 an extreme maturity of the marketplace is currently 12 participating in the VICP or the existing AHRI 13 certification program. Those that are not, let's call 14 it ten percent for this discussion, are mostly falling 15 into a niche of engineered-to-order product, which 16 would be exempt under our proposal anyway. So, with 17 that said, closer to 100 percent of the market is 18 participating for the product that we're saying needs 19 to be verified. 20 The other point is I don't see the argument 21 that a start-up would have serious start-up costs based 22 on these programs because many start-ups join AHRI.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 71 1 And Karim or Bill or Frank or somebody else can speak 2 to that. Start-ups today join the AHRI certification 3 program. So those are my concluding comments. 4 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 5 understood Harvey's comments to be more of global in 6 nature that wouldn't be just for any specific group but 7 more the requirements and possibly limitations for any 8 -- what's the acronym we're using now? It's not VICP. 9 Is it ICP? 10 MS. BARHYDT: DAVP. DAVP, yes. 11 MR. STEPHENS: DAVP? And what does that 12 stand for? 13 MS. BARHYDT: DOE-approved verification 14 program. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Okay. So Dave? 16 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. And 17 just between the comments going on on both sides, that 18 would also be a concern of CRE that this could somehow 19 seem like a good idea later on and the model be imposed 20 on everyone. And, you know, I just get hung up over 21 the certify-all rule to be a part. And so, you know, I 22 can understand it does seem like -- you know, what you

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 72 1 guys decide for your industry is fine and I'm 2 abstaining from that vote, but it just seems to me that 3 Harvey is right. You are limiting the number of people 4 who can come into the market that can afford to certify 5 all of their products. 6 MR. STANONIK: Frank -- 7 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. The 8 certify-all rule will apply in the case of DOE. All 9 your product regulated will have to be certified -- 10 MR. STANONIK: Right. 11 MR. AMRANE: -- and will have to go through 12 the verification that DOE is talking about. 13 MR. STANONIK: Right. 14 MR. AMRANE: So this is not different from 15 AHRI. 16 MS. DANE: I understand it all has to be 17 certified, but are you -- you know, then you fall into 18 the numbers of products that you want to directly test 19 and certify unless I've misunderstood, you know. So I 20 just want to make sure that your model doesn't get 21 imposed on CRE because we don't operate that way and -- 22 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73 1 The certify-all only applies to specific, the specific, 2 programs that are within AHRI. 3 MS. DANE: But they have a CRE program that 4 99 percent of the market doesn't participate in. So 5 can I be assured that just because they have a program, 6 that those rules that they are proposing won't be 7 extended to my program, that they have but I choose not 8 to be a part of a voluntary program that they offer? I 9 don't want a voluntary program to become a mandatory 10 program. 11 MR. AMRANE: But DOE is talking about the 12 mandatory program already. This is what we're talking 13 about. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. Phillip Stephens. It's 15 a very important distinction when we're talking about 16 certify all. It's very different for us to participate 17 in a voluntary program that you don't have to be in at 18 all that has a certify-all requirement for all your 19 products. But if we're in a certify-all regulation 20 situation where everything has to go through a DAVP. 21 Then none of the DAVPs can have a certify-all rule 22 inside of those. Otherwise it's not a good situation

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 74 1 for any manufacturer. I would definitely not support 2 that. 3 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I am confused 4 with your statement. I mean, are you saying to DOE 5 that you are going to be only verifying a part of your 6 product that is regulated? 7 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm reading between the 8 lines a little bit here, but I think what Phillip is 9 saying is that he may want to put some of his products 10 in AHRI and h e may want to put some of his products in 11 somebody else's program. But if you require -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Be a part of DAVP. And that 13 doesn't say that -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: But AHRI's program currently 15 says that if you put some of your products in AHRI's 16 program, you have to put all of your products in AHRI's 17 program. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Under that scope. 19 MR. STEPHENS: Under that, yes. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: And that scope within that 21 section. So I could take one section of my stuff. And 22 I have more than one section falling under this. So I

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 75 1 could have one section in AHRI and another section in - 2

- 3 MS. BARHYDT: What's a section, just to make 4 sure I understand? 5 MR. STANONIK: Product group. 6 MR. AMRANE: Product category. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: The product category. And it 8 does not necessarily follow the DOE's definition of it. 9 MR. AMRANE: I think you're right. This is 10 Karim with AHRI. Yes, it is true that, for example, if 11 you have a package boiler that falls within the scope 12 of AHRI, you will have to certify all of your package 13 boiler in that -- I agree. We don't have that. That 14 is what the rule applies to. So sorry. If that's what 15 you meant, yes, indeed, that is the case. 16 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. And that's what I am 17 saying. The Department says all of your products must 18 be certified, regardless of what product class they're 19 in. So no DAVP should be allowed to require all of your 20 products in whichever product class to be certified 21 under their specific product. 22 MR. SACHS: Phillip, this is Harvey. And I'd

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 76 1 like to disagree on -- no. I regretfully disagree on 2 one little thing. If a particular DAVP wants to make 3 that requirement that if you're making package boilers 4 that fit in their scope, all of them have to be 5 certified. That is DAVP's prerogative. Where I draw 6 the line is that I am very uncomfortable with requiring 7 that and some other requirements of all DAVPs. I am 8 uncomfortable with a universal template, which is the 9 AHRI template, without having justifications that match 10 the needs of certification verification and help the 11 industry move forward. 12 I recognize and appreciate Brian's comment 13 that right not this is -- my interpretation, it is to 14 some extent theoretical because the incumbent does have 15 huge market share. But I am just uncomfortable with it 16 looking like the federal government is enforcing that. 17 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. You 18 actually went two different places in the discussion. 19 But, to Harvey's first point, if you take a broad view, 20 federal minimum efficiency standards are a market 21 impediment. Okay? They establish a requirement, a 22 federal requirement, that if you can't meet this

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 77 1 requirement, you can't sell in the United States. 2 Okay? So that is there. 3 And as far as the issue of whether our 4 program or any other program would impede a company 5 from entering the market, the federal law says no, it 6 won't because the federal law says, whoever this 7 company is, they are responsible for the initial 8 rating. And their obligation to DOE is only that they 9 have to do the appropriate test, whatever, that their 10 rating is accurate per the DOE's test procedure. If 11 they need a waiver, they'd better get the waiver first 12 before they introduce into commerce; right? 13 So outside of meeting the federal 14 requirement, there is no barrier to any company to 15 enter the U.S. market for any product that is regulated 16 by federal standards. The issue that AHRI or some 17 other program may say, "Okay. But if you want us to 18 put our name or allow you to put our name and stand 19 behind your rating that we're going to do some 20 prequalification tests," if you've been around for a 21 while and if you've ever tried to do DOE tests and, in 22 fact, if you've tried to comply with some DOE

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 78 1 regulations, it is a very sound and logical 2 requirement. I would say for any outside entity that, 3 let's say, not been involved in North American 4 standards, if they were to enter a new product without 5 prior experience, that, in fact, the likelihood if they 6 ran the DOE tests themselves, whatever test procedure 7 it was, the likelihood that if they ran it themselves, 8 they ran it correctly, it is my opinion I would say it 9 is no better than 50/50. 10 And so I think that just because -- well, a 11 lot of reasons, but I think it makes sense that if you 12 have a new -- again, a totally new entity coming into 13 the market and they are now stating they comply with 14 federal requirements or usually in the case you're 15 stating, Harvey, that, in fact, they have an innovative 16 product, they are probably coming into the product 17 because they are going to claim they have a superior 18 product. You know, they didn't come into the market 19 because I got the plain vanilla that everybody else 20 has. You know, I've got the chocolate sundae with the 21 cherry on top of it. And so in that case, it's even 22 more important that you're sure that they ran the

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 79 1 procedures properly. 2 And so I think it is a very reasonable 3 requirement for any program that if they have a true 4 new entrant, there should be some concern, some 5 validation for the program that they, in fact, know how 6 to -- if they had their tests run at, you know, an 7 established lab that has a record of running the tests, 8 then they're fine; right? We know somebody ran the 9 tests right. But if they didn't do that, you don't 10 know anything. 11 But that is really the second stage. I mean, 12 they can enter the market. They can introduce their 13 products. All they have to do is meet DOE's 14 requirements. But when you get into the verification, 15 then, again, if they're going to be included in a 16 program, it makes sense that the organization that is 17 putting their stamp that says, you know, "We're 18 standing behind these ratings" has some assurance that, 19 in fact, the tests have been done properly. 20 The other point that we kind of got around is 21 that, again, I think it was at the last meeting or 22 maybe the one before it, DOE made it very clear their

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80 1 desire would be that every manufacturer has some kind 2 of verification testing going on. That is certify all. 3 I mean, it's verify all. Sorry. They already certify 4 all. So whether or not a program requires it, as Harvey 5 said, that may be the business of the program, but the 6 manufacturer still is in the dilemma that DOE's 7 expectation is that they're going to have some scheme 8 that will check, verify the test, the ratings of all of 9 their products they have certified. That doesn't go 10 away. 11 Again, if you are running a program, why 12 wouldn't you offer that full-service to anyone? 13 MR. SACHS: Thanks, Frank. I think precedent 14 requires me only to comment that the theology of market 15 impediment is perhaps balanced by the confidence the 16 market has that everything meets some efficiency level. 17 And so I just want to note that we have a theological 18 difference here. 19 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. 20 MR. SACHS: On the rest -- 21 MR. STEPHENS: Oh, sorry. 22 MR. SACHS: -- I think we're getting into the

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81 1 details of the expectations for a differentiated 2 voluntary program versus the needs of what you all have 3 proposed as a Department-authorized mandatory program. 4 And my initial comments were to call out that I am very 5 sensitive to the potential of there being differences 6 between what AHRI offers and what meets the 7 Department's needs and, for that matter, the basic 8 needs of the market. End of rant. 9 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I'm 10 going to toss a couple of tennis balls in a couple of 11 different courts. So a comment to Harvey and then to 12 Jill. My only real concern is when manufacturers are 13 required to use a DAVP of some sort and there is one 14 product that you have that only one DAVP has the 15 ability to perform the testing. Then you have to go to 16 that DAVP. If that DAVP has a certify-all rule, you're 17 stuck with them. Then what does that do to other 18 innovations that that DAVP may not care to create the 19 area of expertise? So that's my first comment. 20 My second point is Jill made a very important 21 point that I think went by a lot of people. All the 22 DAVP's going forward will have to have their same

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82 1 product class definition meet the Department of 2 Energy's because if they don't, then it's going to 3 really corner a lot of manufacturers. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I don't necessarily agree 5 with that, Phil. For instance, you know, over 6 commercial HVAC, you have, as defined by AHRI, unitary 7 small, unitary large, water source heat pumps, CRAC. 8 Those are all different sections. I have my choice to 9 be a member of those sections or to go to another DAVP 10 or to create my own DAVP by those rules that we have up 11 there and executed by ETL or UL or whoever we want to 12 have it executed by. So I have choices. I don't have 13 to necessarily put all of those products in one 14 section, in one DAVP. 15 MR. AMRANE: Let me follow up. 16 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman. 17 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 18 MR. BAUMAN: I just want to real quick, 19 Karim. I don't want to get in the middle of this. I 20 just wanted to -- I think Jill brought up a good point 21 for clarification. When we talk about a DAVP, a 22 manufacturer can have their own DAVP. They don't have

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 83 1 to go to an AHRI or UL based on what the standards are. 2 If you're a minimum standard, you have to do, you know, 3 testing in a lab or whatever. The manufacturer can 4 submit using the basic rules their own program to DOE 5 and get approved for that and then do their own program 6 on whatever. Is that correct, Laura? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Obviously, we haven't ironed 8 out details, but that was the concept that DOE put 9 forward. 10 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 11 wanted to follow up with Phil and the logic. You used 12 the example that, you know, if you had a product but 13 only one DAVP was capable of testing that product, that 14 you will have to join the DAVP and that the DAVP has 15 all certification rule. Then, of course, if there is 16 only one available, then you have no choice. You will 17 have to go through that DAVP anyway. So I am not sure 18 what is the concern here, I mean, if that is the only 19 DAVP available. Otherwise pick another DAVP if it 20 exists. 21 MR. STEPHENS: My concern is future products 22 and the fact that that one DAVP may charge a lot more

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84 1 than other DAVPs. Right? That is a business concern 2 on my end. And I am very concerned that the DOE 3 through these regulations -- unintended consequences 4 could happen to the manufacturers, which could increase 5 our costs above and beyond anything that we currently 6 expect, similar to Karen's previous statement. 7 As far as which product class and the DAVP 8 not meeting the definition of the DOE's product, that 9 is an ongoing concern. If a manufacturer meets the 10 DOE's definition of a product, then how can they not be 11 allowed to do this? If a DAVP has a certify-all 12 regulation, they're going to exert efforts and try to 13 influence a manufacturer to make a round peg fit in a 14 square hole so it fits the standard methods when it 15 will not always work out that way. And that will be a 16 burden to innovation. 17 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with 18 Mitsubishi. A lot of you are not involved in the 19 residential side. And there is a lot that we have to 20 go through on the residential side already that is 21 required by DOE. Any manufacturer has to go through 22 that. And, you know, this is new to a lot of this

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 85 1 market segment. So welcome to the club. 2 You know, DOE is adding cost to go through 3 this verification program. So what we have tried to do 4 in the commercial HVAC is to try to limit what the 5 actual impact is going to be on HVAC manufacturers. 6 And that's why we have come up with this proposal that 7 everyone has to be involved in a DAVP. 8 What we're saying within that, they're a line 9 of companies that we are acknowledging out there that 10 everything they do is an engineered product. You know, 11 essentially they're going to get a free pass because 12 there's no way to test what they have because 13 everything they do is totally engineered. And we're 14 willing to accept that. And DOE has already made a lot 15 of concessions about things that don't need to be 16 tested because the base product is being tested and all 17 of these other things are to help support 18 installations. 19 So everybody is going to have to test. We're 20 doing it residentially. We're going to have to do it 21 now commercially. It's just a matter of trying to 22 refine and make it as equal as possible for everybody.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 86 1 And that's what we're trying to do. 2 MR. STEPHENS: And I have no problems, no 3 objections with that, but when it comes to stifling 4 innovation and putting DAVPs in a position that they 5 are going to try to influence the manufacturer to say, 6 "This product isn't really what you think it is. It is 7 something else," I have a big problem with that. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. Paul Doppel with 9 Mitsubishi. 10 I don't see how you can say that it is 11 stifling innovation. So ten years ago, I was part of 12 AHRI with ductless. We had a totally new product: the 13 variable refrigerant flow product. And working with 14 AHRI and DOE, we were able to come out with this 15 totally new product. That's totally within a voluntary 16 program. And by participating in that program, we were 17 able to get our products included into ASHRAE. So, 18 instead of impeding, it assisted innovation in one of 19 the products that is totally innovative within the 20 commercial HVAC. 21 MR. STEPHENS: I can say from experience I 22 have been on both sides of the coin. It is a lot

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 87 1 different when you are standing on the top of the hill 2 looking down and when you are standing on the bottom of 3 the hill looking up. When you are a small company that 4 is introducing innovation, it is an uphill climb all 5 the way. 6 MR. DOPPEL: I was a small company. I was a 7 small company looking up. Mitsubishi was, you know, 8 just barely participating in AHRI with the ductless 9 products. So we were there, and we just -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: And you -- 11 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. We made it happen. 12 MR. AMRANE: I mean, this is Karim with AHRI. 13 I think if you are talking about test procedures, 14 things like that, it's not for AHRI to judge whether 15 your product can be tested, you know, doesn't fall 16 within the test procedure. You know, again, if you 17 have an issue with a test procedure, I think there is 18 DOE. If it is a rated product, you can go to DOE and 19 ask, you know, whether you have an innovative product 20 that can be tested with the current test procedure or 21 not. If DOE says yes, then I don't think that AHRI can 22 say no. So maybe next time, go to DOE and ask whether

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 88 1 it is a product that falls within the scope of the 2 federal test procedure. 3 MR. STEPHENS: I think my position is pretty 4 clear. And it is clear that we're not going to resolve 5 this immediately. 6 MR. BALLO: One possibility -- I don't know 7 if this addresses your concerns, Phil, but, as I 8 understand it, the CRE certify-all provision applies 9 within this section. Would it address your concern if 10 it applied only within the DOE product class, so 11 certify all boilers above 2.5 million or below? 12 MR. STEPHENS: That would be a step in the 13 correct direction, but I don't believe it would resolve 14 everything. 15 MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with UL. I want 16 to go back to the point Harvey made earlier after -- 17 and I assume it was in the context of the commercial 18 HVAC proposal saying that the verification or the 19 manufacturer must participate in a VICP or a DAVP and 20 setting the DAVP requirements similar to the existing 21 AHRI requirements. And it sounded like, Harvey, you 22 were saying that by doing so, it's limiting a new

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 89 1 company from entering the market or restricting trade. 2 Just for clarity, which of the stipulations 3 do you have issue with? Is it the penalty clause? Is 4 it the challenge test? Is it the qualification 5 process? I mean, what specifically in there do you 6 take issue with? 7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Brian, thanks. 8 And I appreciate that. And from time to time, I think 9 I have been perhaps even more off the cuff than I 10 should be. And I think this is important enough that it 11 really does require me to sit down and think about 12 ramifications of each of these requirements in terms of 13 my perception of the distinction between what AHRI 14 brings to the table. And Lord knows I have worked, 15 enjoyed working, with them on many issues. And I'm 16 currently working with them on a couple of rating 17 method issues. 18 So I think it needs more thought. I will try 19 to do that this evening after our meeting, but I can't 20 even guarantee that I can get to it tonight. 21 MR. STEM: This is Mike Stem with Intertek. 22 I think two issues here. Number one, that proposal was

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 90 1 never intended to cross over into CRE. You're in two 2 very different places: 9010 already in the program 3 versus 1090. So you can't compare the two. I don't 4 know how you get the I guess verification from DOE that 5 that is not going to be imposed later. I think that's 6 what you asked for. And I don't know if that's 7 something that DOE can give you. 8 But pass that to Phillip's point about some 9 of the innovation and the engineered-to-order that were 10 part of the definitions that they proposed as well I 11 think helps some of that because that is a big piece of 12 your business from my understanding as well. And that 13 is going to be part of what is not included. I mean, 14 it can't be. There are so many things. I mean, for 15 what I do on a day-to-day basis building test 16 facilities, I need to make sure that it hits certain 17 points, you know, suction temperatures. And I could 18 care less about the efficiency. But I have to have 19 very, very stable conditions. 20 So there are certain things that just can't 21 be put in a box and wrapped in a pretty bow. And 22 that's what we tried to do with the different groups,

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 91 1 the breakout groups, to set requirements for this 2 group. You set requirements for your group. I don't 3 think that we can get everything in one box. 4 So I'll ask Laura that question. Are there 5 any guarantees that you can give that those 6 requirements won't cross into other groups? 7 MS. BARHYDT: We recognize that the 8 industries are very different. And that was part of 9 the reason why I thought yesterday maybe it would 10 helped if we broke into groups. I think we are very 11 open to the idea of different requirements for 12 different groups for different types of products. And 13 I think it just makes sense to have different 14 requirements for different product types. We have heard 15 that different types of products have different 16 development cycles, different product live spans for 17 designs. All of those things combined just make sense 18 for products to be treated in different ways in terms 19 of verification testing. 20 The other thing is that we can as a group 21 come up with different proposals for different product 22 types. And we can send that up to ASRAC. And ASRAC can

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 92 1 submit that to the Department for notice and comment 2 rulemaking. If we send up three different proposals, 3 the Department is going to be in a difficult position 4 to just turn around and say, "Well, we understand that 5 representatives from these different industries 6 produced thought-out proposals that reflected the 7 realities of their industries." And for us to just 8 turn right around and say, "But we're tossing that out, 9 and we're going with one approach for everybody," I 10 mean, the reality is that this working group has a lot 11 of influence over what any final rule would look like. 12 So if the consensus coming out of this group is that 13 products should be treated in different ways, I think 14 that the Department is going to consider that 15 information very, very seriously. And we are very open 16 to treating different products in different ways as 17 well as different types of manufacturers, as we have 18 said. We are willing to look at that. We are willing 19 to look at different product classes. We are willing 20 to look at whether the build-to-stock, the custom-built 21 -- we are willing to look at all of those as different 22 options and treat different manufacturers who are

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 93 1 dealing with different types of products in different 2 ways. We want a verification system that is going to 3 make sense. 4 MS. DANE: Thank you, Laura. This is Mary 5 from Traulsen. I just want to make sure because there 6 seems to be some skillful turning around of the things 7 I say. And I want to make sure that it is understood 8 that what I am saying is not that I don't understand 9 that we are certifying. It is just very important to 10 the CRE industry as a whole. I know everybody else is 11 used to operating differently. The point of being a 12 voluntary certification program is just that. 13 Now, when we go to the Department-approved, 14 if we come out with across the board a copycat model of 15 the only one that we have to go by -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: Let me stop you right there. 17 How are we going to get there? If the consensus of 18 this group is that there should be different programs 19 for different product types, how is it that we're going 20 to end up with a copycat? I don't understand how we're 21 getting from point A to point B. 22 MS. DANE: And I understand. I guess what

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 94 1 will happen is I will be comfortable when I see CRE is 2 excluded from having that stringent of a requirement. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You are negotiating. 4 MS. DANE: I understand I am negotiating, 5 but, I mean, there is more going on than just what is 6 going on at this table. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Mary, what I would say, what I 8 was going to suggest is possibly break for lunch soon 9 and then everybody go to their separate groups again. 10 And I have a room number for HVAC because it is a 11 different room number than where you were this morning, 12 but if CRE comes back and they have a slide and it 13 doesn't look like this slide and it is the CRE slide, 14 that is okay. It doesn't have to be this is the slide 15 for everyone. Does that help? 16 MS. DANE: Yes. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: You never said it was going to 19

-- 20 MS. BARHYDT: No. I understand that. 21 MR. SACHS: At this point, I would like to 22 acknowledge what I think is a pretty elegant resolution

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95 1 of the engineered-to-order issue and express my 2 appreciation. 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any more thoughts on this 4 issue? 5 (No response.) 6 Why don't we take a break for lunch, come back here at 7 1:00 o'clock, and then break out as necessary? 8 MR. JOHNSON: Do we have that other -- 9 MR. EISNER: Do we want to discuss boilers 10 more because we just did a very brief overview of 11 boilers. 12 MR. JOHNSON: Where are we going? 13 MS. BARHYDT: So the HVAC will go to 7E-069. 14 It's more or less right below us one floor, 7E-069. 15 One- hour lunch and then small groups? 16 MR. EISNER: 1:00 o'clock, until 1:00 17 o'clock. 18 MR. SACHS: I have good news for the group. 19 I will be late tomorrow. 20 (Whereupon, the meeting was recessed from 21 12:01 p.m. until 3:12 p.m.) 22 MR. EISNER: Can everybody take their seat?

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 96 1 Okay. You've had another hour and a half or close to 2 an hour and a half. Actually, what are we talking 3 about? Almost two and a half. Who has got some good 4 news to report? Worked everything out? 5 MR. SACHS: We motored along. 6 MALE SPEAKER: We did motor. 7 FEMALE SPEAKER: We did motor. 8 MR. EISNER: You all know that the motor 9 people are going to join us at 4:00 o'clock. What? 10 Okay. Why don't we start off with the boilers and talk 11 about what progress they think they made? 12 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. We 13 have had a lot of discussion. And right now there 14 seems to be an impasse. I've seen no willingness by 15 the parties that want an AHRI program to flex, bend, 16 give any quarter. So I'm not sure where to go next. 17 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts from people who 18 were in that group? Frank, are there disagreements in 19 your opinion on every issue or are they just on some 20 important issues? 21 MR. MYERS: There are two critical issues 22 where the principal area is we have pushed a number of

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 97 1 other what we think at this point are less significant 2 issues off to the side to concentrate on the two 3 principal issues. That is the number of tests to be 4 run and who can run them. So those are the principal 5 issues that are intractable at this point. 6 MR. EISNER: All right. And could you 7 develop by tomorrow a report that could say, "Here are 8 all of the things we agree on. Here are the two 9 biggest issues we don't agree on. And here are the 10 ranges that they are talking about"? 11 MR. MYERS: We might be able to put something 12 together that shows the discussions that we have had, 13 but there were only a handful of places where we 14 concluded with agreement because they were all clouded 15 by these pivotal issues. We pushed a number of items 16 back in order to concentrate on the pivotal issues. 17 So it's not that we have lots of things that 18 we have agreed to and these are remaining. We have had 19 lots of discussion. There have been some areas that 20 were completely noncontroversial, but they're not 21 significant enough to really bring out as some great 22 accomplishment. The principal issues are the ones that

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98 1 we have spent most of our time on. 2 MR. EISNER: I am thinking about the kind of 3 chart that was up on the screen before we took a break 4 for lunch where they had a whole list of criteria for a 5 verification program. What I'm saying is, could you 6 put down a whole list of criteria saying, "Unanimous on 7 these things," "No agreement on these two or three 8 things," "Here are the ranges," "Here are the pros," 9 "what people think are the cons, "Here are the pros and 10 cons to the others" so this group could then come to a 11 vote on those issues? If you don't think you're going 12 to resolve it, some decisions are going to have to be 13 made. 14 MR. MYERS: Well, I don't know that it can't 15 be resolved, but at this point, I have not seen any 16 willingness to negotiate. There are just positions. 17 And, you know, if I saw some movement towards a 18 negotiated agreement, then perhaps we could work 19 something out. 20 MR. EISNER: That's what I'm saying. The 21 group itself, the subgroup itself, couldn't reach 22 agreement, couldn't get past you said on two big,

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 99 1 important issues. I'm saying if you could give us all 2 the points that you would have in a program that 3 everybody agrees to and the ones they don't agree to, 4 we could take a vote and see whether there are enough 5 votes to pass it or we could see whether other people 6 could come up with ideas, but we can't just say, "We 7 can't resolve it. So let's forget about it." We've 8 got to have something to present to this group. At 9 least that's my thinking. If others have got a way of 10 getting past this problem? 11 MR. STARR: Is this on all sized boilers or 12 is it just certain sized boilers? Is there a breakout 13 on that because you are talking about the number of 14 tests run and -- 15 MR. MYERS: It's not just boilers. This is 16 Frank Myers, PVI. It's not just boilers. It's boilers 17 and water heaters. 18 MR. STARR: Is there a size break, I mean, or 19 is it -- 20 MR. MYERS: There has been general agreement 21 but not agreement, just no one is really complaining 22 about the fact that it is difficult to test, if not

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 100 1 impossible to test, products above five million BTUs to 2 the protocol. So we would not have a verification 3 program for above five million. 4 Beyond that, there is a break that has been 5 discussed. And some have proposed different quantities 6 of testing above and below two and a half million up to 7 five million. Others want the same quantity for 8 everything. And so there has not really been much 9 agreement other than general agreement above five 10 million since there is not much in the way of 11 laboratories to test. You can't really have a 12 requirement there. 13 MR. STARR: So it sounds like it breaks out 14 on size and then once it breaks out based upon size, it 15 is what quantity gets tested into those sizes; right? 16 MR. MYERS: Right. What quantity and who can 17 actually conduct the test. 18 MR. STARR: Okay. 19 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 20 Unfortunately, I didn't get time to bring this up. It 21 sounds fairly pessimistic for the commercial boiler 22 discussion, but I think one of the things that is

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 101 1 really common here and the working group hasn't talked 2 about is we really haven't talked about what would be 3 the verification requirements for -- I want to call 4 them the one-offs. And I actually have in my own mind 5 a little different definition of one-offs. Okay? But 6 there are a lot of similarities. 7 When you start to get into larger boilers, 8 very large input boilers, and the whole question of how 9 you're going to deal with verification of one-offs. 10 Basically the similarities are in general, they don't 11 build a lot of them. They're very large. It gets to 12 the point where they are prohibitive to be shipped 13 somewhere for testing. And they're expensive to build. 14 But I think to me at some point, the working group is 15 going to have to come up with their own suggestions for 16 how are we going to deal with the verification of the 17 one-offs. And if you do that, there may be some things 18 that may help resolve the boiler question or some of 19 the boiler issues -- but I haven't been at all of the 20 meetings -- unless it has been determined that the 21 working group is not going to talk about verifying one22 offs.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102 1 MR. EISNER: Laura, does DOE have any 2 position on statutory authority with respect to one3 offs? 4 MS. BARHYDT: Well, they are within our 5 statutory in that they are regulated, but -- 6 MR. EISNER: Do they have to be tested? 7 MS. BARHYDT: So all of these requirements 8 for verification testing are obviously not current 9 requirements. And so to the extent that we are 10 creating a verification testing requirement, we would 11 have authority to set different requirements or 12 possibly no verification testing for certain criteria, 13 such as over five million BTUs. I mean, those are 14 options on the table. 15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And a couple of 16 observations. In addition to the identifying criteria 17 that Frank brought forward of large sized, difficulty 18 to ship, and being truly one-offs, there is another 19 characteristic that I think is common to all of these. 20 And that is that there are, in fact, two more. They 21 are generally sold to relatively sophisticated 22 customers and individually and cumulatively within a

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 103 1 product class. Deviations from standards-level 2 performance are I think unlikely to have a significant 3 effect on national energy consumption. They use a lot 4 of energy individually but collectively are relatively 5 small contributors, I think. And I am open to being 6 disabused of that notion. 7 Given those aspects, I am certainly open to 8 being convinced that it is an area where the customer's 9 sophistication and all of these considerations might 10 allow us to have the standard and effect. And that 11 becomes an anchor in case there is a dispute between 12 the manufacturer and the customer. And let it go at 13 that; in other words, to not have DOE verification, 14 although we do have statutory requirements for 15 efficiency for these products. And I think that goes a 16 little beyond what we agreed to in earlier stages 17 talking about AEDMs and things, that if it's a one-off, 18 it is its own universe. We don't need a second one. I 19 think that's something we ought to consider as an 20 option for these very specialized large, individually 21 engineered products. 22 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts on that?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 104 1 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. So, 2 just following up on what Harvey said, is it DOE's 3 opinion that that one-off product needs to be listed in 4 the database? 5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 6 MR. FLY: Okay. 7 MS. BARHYDT: It should be certified as part 8 of the basic model. Now, whether every single one-off 9 is completely unable to be grouped, that would be up to 10 the manufacturers as to whether or not they could group 11 the models. But every product sold should be 12 certified. Every basic model sold should be certified. 13 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 14 Question to Mark: Are you calling one-off 15 what we were calling or defining as an engineered? 16 MR. FLY: Yes. I'm using that. We are 17 throwing a lot of different terms around, but 18 engineered-to-order 19 -- and I agree with Harvey that usually these 20 are being sold to a sophisticated client. And one of 21 the things that we discussed this morning in the HVAC 22 breakout session was that because there was only one

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 105 1 built and probably only one that was ever going to be 2 built, then how do you have a verification program on 3 that without building two: one to test and one to 4 sell? So that didn't seem to make sense. So if we 5 kind of excluded those from the verification program. 6 And then our discussion was one of the 7 requirements of that is you don't list an energy metric 8 for that that you can give people their capacity and 9 their power consumption, but we don't do the math as a 10 distinction to show that it's a not verified product. 11 We're wrestling with that, and I don't have a good 12 solution. 13 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. In 14 terms of this, the whole definition of what that is as 15 well as the potential for gaming the system are reasons 16 why I have been -- and I think there is fairly good 17 consensus within the boiler group avoiding making 18 special considerations for one-off or engineered 19 manufacturing; rather, created a distinction at a BTU 20 firing rate for the appliances and said that there is 21 at least a proposal that I think has consensus, though, 22 not unanimity of units that are five million BTUs per

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 106 1 hour and larger would not have annual verification 2 testing. 3 Now there is more disagreement on the smaller 4 sizes, but that was a way that we captured I think a 5 significant portion of the engineered, custom 6 engineered, products. 7 MR. EISNER: Others have comments? 8 (No response.) 9 You know, my thoughts are -- and I think we should go 10 through all three and see where we are. But my 11 thoughts are I was in most of that meeting, but I noted 12 that some people were there for a little while, weren't 13 there for the entire time. We've got to start focusing 14 on the issues. And I think the best way to do that is 15 something on the screen with a list of items that you 16 agree should be part of the program, a list of items 17 that should be part but you can't agree on what to do 18 with them, such as the number of tests or whether some 19 devices don't have to be tested. We've got to resolve 20 those. We've got to figure out whether we can get 21 agreement or whether they will just go on the report as 22 "No consensus. Forty percent wanted this. Forty

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107 1 percent wanted that. And 20 percent wanted something 2 else." 3 And we'll see what ASRAC says. And then the 4 agency will have to decide what to do. I don't think 5 we can keep putting it off if you don't think there is 6 any possibility of getting consensus among the 7 individuals who are in the room. 8 Does anybody have any other thoughts on that? 9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. We 10 just want to confirm from AHRI and AHRI members that 11 are in the boiler and water heater group that there is 12 no interest in doing anything other than the current 13 AHRI levels and techniques. If that is the case, then 14 we should do exactly what you are saying. Put where we 15 are up on the board. And the group can decide. 16 MR. TRITSIS: Let me clarify what Frank is 17 saying here. When he's saying "the AHRI and AHRI 18 members," "there is no interest" or willingness to 19 compromise or anything like that. We don't certainly 20 want to compromise on issues of integrity. And if DOE 21 is going to set up a verification program, there have 22 to be some minimum requirements.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 108 1 So yes. We don't agree for zero testing, 2 zero verification testing. Yes. And we don't agree 3 for manufacturer self-testing. And that is what Frank 4 is talking about, not willingness of compromise. 5 MR. EISNER: And what I think would be 6 helpful - - it doesn't have to be on the chart, but 7 people should be ready to discuss their problems with 8 certain of the provisions on which you can't get 9 consensus. The larger group should be able to help in 10 some ways. Harvey may have some suggestions. He's not 11 in the room. You want to hear more about what DOE 12 says, whether DOE can live with some of the things that 13 other people won't compromise on. So DOE says, "We 14 can't do that. We don't have the authority to do that" 15 or "We don't have the authority to not do that." 16 That's important for everybody to hear. 17 I know Laura was in part of the meeting, but 18 she was not there for the entire meeting. I think 19 that's what I would recommend. You get the group back 20 together. You do the best job you can to come up with 21 the list so we have something to start with on that 22 when we discuss it.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 109 1 MR. SACHS: Neil, if I might, I have a 2 clarification question for Bill. 3 MR. EISNER: You might. 4 MR. SACHS: Am I to infer from your position 5 on verification and the analogue to the AHRI process -- 6 now, I may be wrong that an analogue to the 17065, 7 17025 process of remote supervised testing at the 8 manufacturer site would not be acceptable, even for 9 one-offs. Are you not saying that? 10 MR. TRITSIS: Are we talking about products 11 above five million that we cannot test? No. We're not 12 talking about that. Is that what you're referring to: 13 the one-offs? 14 MR. SACHS: It's that but also perhaps some 15 that are somewhat smaller, two and a half, three 16 million BTU products. Specialty products that are one17 offs, not production series, is it your position that 18 these could not be tested through that satellite lab19 type arrangement? 20 MR. TRITSIS: Well, if satellite lab means 21 self- manufacture, self-verification, yes, we disagree 22 with that. We would like somebody to be present --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 110 1 okay? -- when testing is conducted. That's what we are 2 saying. That's what we are arguing here. 3 MR. SACHS: Okay. So your position -- I'm 4 just trying to understand it -- is that all of this 5 elaborate ISO stuff is not sufficient verification? 6 MR. TRITSIS: ISO 17025 or 17065, there are 7 qualify control systems -- 8 MR. SACHS: Right. 9 MR. TRITSIS: -- quality systems in place 10 that don't necessarily address -- that address 11 expertise in having a qualified person, qualified 12 technician overseeing that test. 13 MR. SACHS: Okay. Thank you. That is very 14 helpful to me. Appreciate it. 15 MR. EISNER: Okay. 16 MS. MEYERS: Is it the Department's position 17 that all of these products that we're discussing in 18 this working group have to have a verification program? 19 MS. BARHYDT: That's what we would like, 20 obviously. We have expressed a great deal of 21 willingness to be flexible and work with you all based 22 on the information that is provided. I mean, our

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 111 1 going-in position is yes, it would be great to have 2 everything in a verification program. But, I mean, 3 that is a starting point for a discussion or it was a 4 starting point for a discussion. We have moved beyond 5 that point now. 6 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver 7 Brooks. I think if we're trying to identify micro 8 pieces that we do have unanimity on, I believe that 9 there is a consensus within a group that five million 10 or above, there shouldn't be verification testing 11 because of the issues with the labs. I don't think 12 anybody disagrees with that. So that's at least one 13 piece of ground that we can I think all agree on. The 14 differences come on boilers that are smaller than that. 15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Again, 16 I don't think we really had a chance to take the total 17 count there because from AHRI's perspective, as I 18 mentioned in that meeting, we have tested boilers up to 19 eight million BTUs per hour as part of our program. 20 It's in the manufacturer's facility. It's a steam 21 boiler. But we have tested up to eight million. So I 22 don't think without some strong reasons would we agree

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112 1 that you don't need to test verification above five 2 million. Especially everybody seems to forget we are 3 going to have AEDMs, which will encompass ranges of 4 inputs over five million. And, in fact, you could 5 verify that model group or model family. You could 6 verify that model family to encompass the full range, 7 not necessarily testing all the stuff over five 8 million. You may on a rare occasion test one over five 9 million, but you can still verify the whole family by 10 testing stuff down in the two, three range and cover 11 stuff all the way up to seven, eight, nine, ten 12 million. But we have tested up to eight million. And 13 we have reasons to believe there should be verification 14 above that, above five million. 15 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. So 16 that there is not confusion about what Mr. Stanonik 17 just said, they have tested a steam boiler, steam 18 boiler. This group was also talking about water boilers 19 and water heaters. 20 And where he is absolutely correct, there 21 have been some tests by AHRI witnessed in 22 manufacturers' facilities at up to seven or eight

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 113 1 million BTUs on steam. That is a much easier task than 2 doing it on a water boiler or on a water heater. What 3 we had done -- and he did bring that up in our group. 4 As I mentioned earlier, we did not come to final 5 resolution of that. If we needed to carve out steam 6 boilers up to some number that was higher than five 7 million, okay. Maybe we can do that. But the five 8 million number applied to water boilers, to water 9 heaters, and with only that handful of products that 10 would be in that in-between range on steam boilers, the 11 general feeling was five million was a good spot to do 12 it. But it is possible in some laboratories to go up 13 to above that for steam. 14 MR. EISNER: I think that's where it will 15 help to start creating this list because you might say, 16 "Okay. We do have agreement for this one category. It 17 can go up to eight million. For these other 18 categories, it can't go above five." Maybe you will. 19 Maybe you won't. But we can narrow it down and then 20 get it in front of the entire group and see what we can 21 do then with suggestions. 22 MR. MYERS: We didn't spend a lot of time

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 114 1 discussing the nuances of that because there was 2 general agreement. And where there was disagreement, 3 it was not strong disagreement. That's what I was 4 explaining earlier, that a number of the items were in 5 that boat that we focused on the areas where there was 6 the strongest disagreement. 7 MR. EISNER: Okay. CRE? Any more progress? 8 MR. BAUMAN: I guess we took another step and 9 a half forward and three-quarters of a step back, 10 which, again, as we're going along, anybody that walked 11 in as we were having our session, we were having some 12 reviews with some people on the phone as far as 13 tolerances and things because we got into some 14 discussions of again what -- if we're going to have a 15 building along, we had discussed earlier in a penalty 16 phase or if there should be consequences in discussing 17 definition of a -- really, we went from failure to meet 18 the DOE standard or whatever to invalid rating 19 determination, which I think is a term we used from the 20 AEDMs and were I think working on that. That is the 21 basis if through verification testing, it is found that 22 a product has an invalid rating, basically above the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 115 1 five percent one-sided tolerance, then the company 2 would be subject to double the test burden for the next 3 two years. 4 So I think we got through that, again, going 5 back and questioning ourselves and things. And I would 6 say that's kind of to the point we're at. I think as 7 far as my outline and the issues we definitely need to 8 discuss still are in model selection, sample 9 procurement -- and that's where we get into talking 10 about the wonderful topics of built-to-stock, built-to11 order, engineered-to-order. So those are still some 12 things we I think have to discuss and potential -- I'll 13 say additional model verification before the start of 14 the test. 15 So there is some stuff that I propose that, 16 again, this group still needs to -- you know, we need 17 to review as a group. So I would say we made more 18 progress. You know, we're not at a standstill, I think, 19 like some of the other groups may feel like they're at. 20 But we're progressing slowly and cautiously, I guess. 21 MR. EISNER: One thing that everybody has to 22 think about is whether there are features that are

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 116 1 treated differently in one of the three groups for 2 which there is no justification for different handling; 3 for example, the penalty phase. Should it be 4 consistent? Should one failure result in the same 5 penalty in all three categories? I'm not saying it 6 should or it shouldn't. It's just again the agency has 7 to be able to justify its decisions. Can it justify 8 those kinds of distinctions? 9 Okay. And that leaves us with HVAC. 10 MR. SACHS: Neil? 11 MR. EISNER: Yes? 12 MR. SACHS: Your question brought back 13 Rusty's sheet on basic models versus testing 14 requirement. And that seems to be a reflection of not 15 only basic models but very roughly of shipments of a 16 particular product class. And to that extent, the 17 penalty might logically differ from a product class 18 that has small numbers of shipments relative to a 19 product class that has hundreds of thousands of annual 20 shipments. So it's not clear to me that the penalty 21 provisions should be the same across all three, and 22 it's not clear to me that there wouldn't be a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 117 1 justification that would be pretty logical. I'm not 2 sure that's the case, but I am certainly not ready to 3 reject the idea of customized penalties for -- 4 MR. EISNER: And I'm not suggesting there 5 should be that. 6 MR. SACHS: Yes. 7 MR. EISNER: It's just that you have to think 8 about whether the differences are justified. 9 MR. SACHS: No, I appreciate that. And you 10 have forced me to think. 11 MR. EISNER: Okay. I can go home now and 12 know that I got something done today. 13 Okay. HVAC? Who wants to -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: So my understanding is that 15 HVAC talked about something else during their meeting. 16 MR. EISNER: I thought you gave them a 17 specific task at the end of their last -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: Nonetheless -- 19 MR. EISNER: They were told to go back and -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: We don't follow directions. 21 MR. EISNER: Well, we'll put that on the 22 list, too.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 118 1 MR. WHITWELL: We had two visitors from the 2 Department. 3 MR. SACHS: What Bob is trying to say is it's 4 John's fault. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Normally that is true. So 6 it's my fault for making progress on this issue. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Well, I opened up a million 8 different slides, and I clearly didn't open up the 9 right one. 10 (Off record discussion.) 11 MS. BARHYDT: Do you all know which slide set 12 we edited yesterday with the motors provisions? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: No. I mean, she came up with 14 one that -- I mean, Ashley had that one. I don't know 15 where. We never got it sent to us. So it had the 16 wording for the motor. Sorry, Ashley. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know where it is. Do you 18 want to find it? 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Was it in this slide show 20 at all? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 22 (Off record discussion.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 119 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the first thing is it 2 didn't seem to me from the earlier discussion that we 3 needed this for SPVUs. That is the first issue. Is 4 there a reason this is needed for SPVUs? 5 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. I think it was 6 discussed when we discussed SPVUs, and it was added. 7 And I think during that discussion, if I recall, there 8 were some manufacturers on the phone that believed it 9 was needed as well. 10 MR. SACHS: Karim, if I remember the last 11 regulatory process, weren't there some installations 12 where SPVUs were actually ducted to the other end of 13 the room so you would get an appropriate turnover flow 14 so there would be some static pressure considerations 15 in some installations? 16 MR. AMRANE: Yes. And I think most of them 17 are probably not ducted but some of them are. You're 18 right. So, again, I mean, that was it, I believe, if I 19 recall correctly. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was looking over things. 21 And I saw it go both ways. So I wasn't sure. Anyways, 22 it doesn't matter.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120 1 MS. HOOTMAN: (Off-microphone.) 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: They were not. We 3 specifically said they were not, yes. 4 Okay. What we talked about, I guess, was a 5 concept for a vote. And the idea here is that the 6 Department along with the manufacturers of commercial 7 HVAC are committing to a concept. And that concept 8 includes basically the idea of issuing some type of 9 enforcement guidance that will allow a base motor to be 10 rated and tested in accordance with the DOE test 11 procedure at a given static. Other models within that 12 group would not have to be tested to have higher static 13 and higher horsepower designs such that the level of 14 efficiency in the base motor is maintained or more 15 efficient in the greater horsepower designs. That is 16 the concept. 17 The second prong to that is, you know, we 18 talked about potentially a method for scaling for those 19 general purpose motors or definite purpose motors that 20 do have ratings and do have values where some type of 21 general scaling would work. There may be types of 22 motors -- and this is something we are hoping to gain

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 121 1 clarify at 4:00 p.m. a little more about what types of 2 motors are actually used in commercial HVAC systems, 3 but there may be some types of motors that are not 4 rated and cannot be tested in accordance with an 5 industry test procedure like the IEEE procedure, which 6 is the DOE test procedure incorporated by reference. 7 For those, you couldn't mix and match such that the 8 base motor design is more efficient than a different 9 type of motor that you then incorporate. 10 I said the right words, I am pretty sure, 11 more or less that we talked about downstairs. That is 12 the concept that we would like to put up to vote. We 13 are hoping that with this vote, there is a commitment 14 by the Department and by the manufacturers to work out 15 a method that makes this workable such that with this 16 vote, we can include the basic model, the 17 certification, and the date for HVAC with the ASRAC 18 package for next week. Without it, it will be held. 19 And we're worried about the December 31st deadline. 20 I see some nods around the table. So I think 21 I got the language right. I realize I need to word the 22 wording on the slide a little bit different, but at

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 122 1 least the language, what I just said, is on the 2 transcript, and we can grab it. Are we comfortable 3 with voting the concept out and committing to working 4 towards -- we would come up with a definite solution 5 prior to publication or issuance of a proposed rule. 6 And if we didn't, that would be held. Yes. So she 7 probably shouldn't read what is on the slide because it 8 is not -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: (Off-microphone.) 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what I just said. 11 MS. MEYERS: Ashley? So if you wouldn't mind 12 since I wasn't in that breakout session, would you mind 13 just walking through that one more time? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 15 MS. MEYERS: Thank you. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hopefully, I say the same 17 thing. So the general premise that you would be 18 agreeing to is whatever motor a manufacturer elects as 19 their base motor design, all our motors for higher 20 static, higher horsepower applications would have to 21 have equal or better performance as that base motor. 22 MR. EISNER: And how is that determined?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The devil is in the details. 2 So we are committing at this point to a concept. We 3 are committing to working through the details, whether 4 it be scaling or whether it be some other alternative 5 method. You can't just put a more efficient design in a 6 base motor and switch to a less efficient design in the 7 higher statics. You could switch designs such that we 8 find an equitable way to show that they're comparable. 9 And then for those motors, the only thing we're hoping 10 to gain clarity on is how many motors actually don't 11 have ratings or cannot be tested in accordance with 12 either an industry method right now or the DOE method, 13 which they are the same. And if that's the case, we 14 are committing to working through some type of 15 methodology which would provide that level of assurance 16 that the motor design is representative of the 17 efficiency of all the motors in that grouping 18 basically. 19 MR. EISNER: And that can be handled by 20 guidance. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're going to work through 22 it with guidance. So we're committing to a concept

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 124 1 here. We are committing to working through it so that 2 the package can move to ASRAC. We will keep going on 3 the details. And if the details aren't worked out, 4 then the notice of proposed rulemaking for HVAC will be 5 held for cert, for the compliance date, et cetera, 6 until we can get the details and issue the guidance at 7 the same time. 8 MR. STARR: I think there is other thing 9 about the base model also. Whatever, your motor and 10 your base model actually have to be commerce. So you 11 can't just switch out and use a bad motor in your base 12 model. And then it actually has to be something you 13 sell. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I mean, that's part 15 of their certification anyway. They're going to have 16 to certify the base motor, you know, design. 17 MS. MEYERS: So maybe some of the HVAC 18 engineers in the room can help me with this question. 19 So standard drives and high static drives are already 20 established. So what does this mean for current 21 equipment? 22 MS. HOOTMAN: So Karen, this is Jill Hootman.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 125 1 We don't know, but what we are committing to is to work 2 out those details and work through those details with 3 the motor manufacturers in finding out whether we have 4 any issues or gaps if the concept will work, and if 5 not, we'll have to come up with something for those 6 motors that may not cross over or have this issue. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you are agreeing to a 8 policy premise; right? And the policy is that you 9 believe that your base motor design's efficiency should 10 be equal to or the lowest of all other motor designs in 11 that grouping. In other words, you agree to the premise 12 that you shouldn't be able to switch out a less 13 efficient motor for high static designs and then just 14 have it not tested or subject to verification. And if 15 you want to do that, then it becomes its own base model 16 and is subsequently subject to verification testing. 17 And so you would -- 18 MR. EISNER: And having agreed to the 19 premise, having agreed to the premise, will the 20 manufacturers be able to agree to the schedule without 21 the bracketed caveats? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, we talked about

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126 1

-- 2 MR. FLY: Say that again. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: He wants to know if you would 4 agree to the schedule. In other words, working through 5 this over the next month or so while the package moves 6 forward through ASRAC, through the Department, the 7 proposed rule starts to get drafted assuming the 8 approvals go through. 9 MR. EISNER: So the caveat will come off the 10 charts when we send it to ASRAC. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: What's the caveat? 12 MR. EISNER: The caveats were the brackets 13 that we had for three -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. They will come off, but 15 there will be a caveat on this saying if we don't reach 16 the details, then it gets pulled from the NOPR. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, yes. It gets flipped over 18 to this -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. It just flips over to 20 this. 21 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. So, 22 you know, what we're asking ASRAC as the Committee goes

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 127 1 forward is ASRAC is going to agree to let this 2 Committee working with DOE to work out the details and 3 agree to the concept so that we won't have to go back 4 through ASRAC again to get this approved. Is that 5 correct? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right because the December 7 31st date is soon. And this would hold up that, the 8 whole package, for HVAC. 9 MR. WHITWELL: So, Karen, this is Bob 10 Whitwell from Carrier. So just thinking about the 11 example that Diana Jakobs was talking about yesterday, 12 where there is some possibility that -- or more work to 13 be done, let's say, would be an example like where she 14 has a 46 or a 58 frame definite purpose motor that is 15 the base motor and then may have general purpose motors 16 for high static applications. There would have to be 17 efficiency data on the definite purpose motor that 18 would be tested in the similar fashion to the way it is 19 tested on the general purpose motors so that you could 20 compare the efficiency at the dominant purpose motor's 21 horsepower with the general purpose motor's horsepower, 22 NEMA general purpose horsepower, DOE minimum

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 128 1 efficiencies at that point and look at how it scales to 2 the higher static application. So there may be some 3 efficiency data that you would need to get from your 4 motor manufacturer to see if your current motors will 5 work or if you need to get higher efficiency motors. 6 Follow me? 7 MS. MEYERS: Yes. I think I do. I think it 8 is a great idea, but isn't this what NEMA objected to? 9 MR. EISNER: Can you save it -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, but it's not clear why. 11 I think they're going to talk at 4:00? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. We don't know. 13 MR. WHITWELL: I don't understand what their 14 objection was. 15 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 16 Would it make sense to hear what they say at 4:00 and 17 then vote after that? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You want my opinion of it? 19 MR. DOPPEL: Well, it's almost 4:00 now. 20 It's like -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: My opinion of it is that this 22 is it. I mean, it's not going to change. We're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 129 1 committing working through a solution. If NEMA doesn't 2 think the scaling would work, we would have to find a 3 different solution. But we are committing to working 4 through a solution because the premise of this is you 5 agree that it is not a good practice to take a base 6 motor and then switch out a less efficient motor in 7 theory and then distribute in commerce something that 8 isn't -- and then ask the Department for an exclusion 9 from the standard basically. 10 MR. EISNER: A vote? Ready? Does anybody 11 oppose? 12 Does anybody want to abstain? 13 Okay. I think we're ready for our 4:00 14 o'clock meeting. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do it. Thanks, Neil. 16 MR. EISNER: Do we want to take a break for 17 five minutes? Do we have anything else that we need to 18 raise? Okay. Why doesn't everybody take five minutes? 19 (Whereupon, the meeting was recessed from 20 3:55 p.m. until 4:09 p.m.) 21 MR. EISNER: Can everybody get to your seats? 22 Please everybody who wants to participate in this get

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 130 1 to your seats. Okay. I understand that we have 2 manufacturers online. Can you introduce yourselves? 3 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with -- 4 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, NEMA. 5 MR. EISNER: Could we get that again 6 separately? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So one was Alex from NEMA. 8 MR. BOESENBERG: Yes. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I didn't hear the second. 10 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You don't manufacture motors. 12 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm just looking for the 14 motors people. Alex, do you know who -- sorry. Paul 15 Lin from Regal Beloit. 16 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 18 MR. EISNER: All right. I think we're ready 19 to begin with the motors discussion. Do we have a plan 20 on how we want to handle this? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. There's always a plan, 22 Neil.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 131 1 MR. EISNER: That's why I wanted you to 2 announce it. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's unclear what it is yet. 4 So, Alex and Paul, I think to preface the 5 discussions a little bit, maybe with the goal of what 6 we are trying to do here, one of the things we have had 7 discussions surrounding is the idea that a specific 8 base model of commercial HVAC equipment incorporates a 9 certain motor into it for the purposes of testing and 10 rating and coming up with their EER values. They also 11 offer that same base commercial HVAC design with other 12 types of motors, specifically higher horsepower motors 13 for different static applications. 14 So the request from the HVAC manufacturers 15 and the commitment that we just made is we would like a 16 way to determine that these higher horsepower motors 17 are equal or better-performing motors in terms of 18 energy efficiency than the motor that's included in the 19 base design. So the first question we fundamentally 20 had is what type of motors are used in the commercial 21 HVAC equipment and how do you tell. Are they all 22 general purpose motors? Are they general purpose and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 132 1 definite purpose motors? Are there any other types of 2 motors? There has been some discussion. They all seem 3 to have air blowing over them. But it is my 4 understanding that most of them don't actually qualify 5 as an air-over motor. 6 So we're hoping that NEMA and Paul or anyone 7 else who has joined us can help shed some light on how 8 do you determine what type of motor is actually in that 9 commercial HVAC design. Does that seem reasonable to 10 start with? 11 MR. WHITWELL: To start with, you're right. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I don't know if Alex 13 or Paul or someone else wants to start, but feel free 14 to speak up. 15 MR. LIN: From the technology that is 16 utilized within the commercial HVAC and based on the 17 basic groups that were provided by AHRI, the models 18 that are utilized are permits but capacitor-type 19 motors, single-phase, NEMA 48 frame, as well as ECM 20 motors within the NEMA 48 frame. And they go up to, the 21 next step that they go up to, is a 56 frame poly-phase 22 motor to the integral horsepower 3- digit NEMA frame

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 133 1 sizes. I would say most of the data that we have seen 2 is the 56 frame and 3-digit type motors are typically 3 general purpose duty. 4 There are some definite purpose duty motors. 5 And I think you see a little bit of that within the 6 basic group that was provided from AHRI. The 7 assumption is that the models that were provided with 8 efficiency data, even though they say air-over rated 9 for general purpose duty, because it's not standard 10 practice for the industry to put efficiency data on 11 air-over motors. And so there are I think three, maybe 12 four model, basic group models, that did not have any 13 efficiency data. And those are going to be assumed to 14 be air-over. 15 And so from that standpoint, I think that's 16 the motor that we're talking about. I don't think I 17 saw any 56 frame cap-start, cap-run-type motors that 18 were defined within the spreadsheet or any split phase19 type motors. 20 So I think that covers your question, I 21 think, here, Ashley, doesn't it? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I think that mostly

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 134 1 covers it, although is the presence -- I guess an 2 absence of efficiency data? How do you fundamentally 3 tell if something is an air-over motor versus just a 4 general purpose or definite purpose motor? 5 MR. EISNER: And, Alex and Paul, before you 6 speak, since this is being recorded, could you please 7 identify yourselves? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 9 MR. LIN: Sure. This is Paul Lin with Regal. 10 Well, let's take a specific example. So on the ECM11 type and the 48 frame PSC motors, those motors would 12 not be able to maintain the load without having air 13 over the motor. The UL that is on the PSC motor, the 14 thermo, the thermostat would trip. And the motor would 15 stop. And on the ECM motor, depending on what the 16 manufacturer's algorithm is, you could either stop or 17 start lightening the load, if you will, or the output, 18 I should say, of the motor. And those would be 19 required to have air-over basically to say that in 20 order to meet temperature limits, that UL is defined 21 within either your installation class B, which most of 22 these motors are. You need to have some sort of air

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 135 1 flow over the motor in order to maintain temperature. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Hey, Paul, this is Bob 3 Whitwell with Carrier. So in the application, you 4 would have air over these, but when a motor 5 manufacturer provides efficiency data on a motor, one 6 of these motors, for example, an ECM motor, is that 7 tested with air-over? 8 MR. LIN: It is not. So the data that is 9 provided, let's say, from the 56 frame as well as 3- 10 digit, those are generally tested if it's not an air11 over-rated without any air over it. And then on the 48 12 frame, what we do is we put it on a dyno and do a break 13 curve on it. And that generally takes maybe two to 14 three minutes at the most. And there is no directed 15 air over it now. So that gives you kind of a 16 difference in terms of the method that we test. The 48 17 frame is not to the IEEE 112-B method. 18 MR. WHITWELL: But it is to the method in 19 that it is tested in still air; correct? 20 MR. LIN: Correct. 21 MR. WHITWELL: And so what would be the 22 difference between the IEEE test and what is used for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 136 1 48 frame or an ECM motor, then? 2 MR. LIN: Just the stabilization to 3 temperature. 4 MR. WHITWELL: And how big a difference would 5 that be? Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the IEEE 6 test procedure. So I don't know what the stabilization 7 temperature would be. 8 MR. LIN: It could be large in terms of the 9 load data and efficiency at the temperature. So if you 10 try to do -- well, assuming that you can keep it coo; 11 right, if you try to run the 112-B with no air over an 12 air-over- rated motor, you won't be able to get there. 13 The motor will trip out before you would even stabilize 14 load. 15 And if you asked a question what would a 56 16 frame or a 3-digit -- what if you tested it in a 17 similar manner with just the break curve, what is the 18 difference? I'm not sure how much of a correlation that 19 you can have relative to cold versus hot data. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill Hootman from 21 Trane. So I want to understand something further on 22 this 48 frame and the ECM. Are you saying that if I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 137 1 were to ask you what was the efficiency of those motors 2 to IEEE-112, you could not portray that to us? 3 MR. LIN: We would have to make some 4 assumptions in terms of how much air that you would 5 want to have over the motor. So we would throw some 6 air on top of it. Is the same exact air flow over that 7 particular test the same as what you would see in the 8 unit? We can't guarantee that, but it would be 9 somewhat close. When we provide you with the data, we 10 have an externally driven fan that we provide air over 11 the control to keep things cool. And that has some 12 correlation relative to some of your air flow data. 13 And the efficiency maps are given with the 14 same air-over. If you're looking as a point, if you're 15 asking as a point standpoint, what is the efficiency of 16 the rated point, we would probably take just more of 17 the dyno curves and give you the efficiency at the 18 rated point. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So if I were then to 20 compare that motor and that rating at whatever you -- 21 like you said, whatever you decided, would it be a fair 22 comparison, then, against the integrals because those

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 138 1 are not tested with air-over? Am I saying that 2 correctly? 3 MR. LIN: Well, I think that's where we start 4 getting into a little bit of where we have some issues 5 relative to the method. Because of the technology 6 differential of a 48 frame versus a 56 frame, a PSC 7 versus a 3-phase induction, it's hard to say that you 8 could accurately scale efficiencies that way; right? 9 And then what is the starting point on a PSC and what 10 is the starting point on an ECM? We don't have those 11 defined like the small motor, 48/56, or the integral, 12 12/12/12/11 table, as we have on the integral side. 13 Take, for example, if we had said an ECM 14 was 78 percent efficient. And then if you pulled up 15 the table; right, on a one-horse per the small motor, 16 an ECM would be 78. And then a poly-phase or a single17 phase -- it depends on how you want to look at it; 18 right? A single- phase small motor efficiency is 83.8. 19 And a poly-phase one-horse 56 frame is 83.5. So off 20 the bat, the ECM is less efficient than those 56 21 frames. So how do you scale that particular model to a 22 56 frame and then, for that matter, the 3-digit

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 139 1 integrals? And if you compare that 78 percent ECM 2 efficiency on a one-horse, compare that to, let's say, 3 a 6-pole 48 frame PSC at 58 to 62 percent, how does 4 that scale relative to a 56 frame one-horse at 83.8? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Thank you. 6 MR. LIN: And how do you define what the base 7 efficiency is as the PCM motor and the ECM motor? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Thank you. I understand what 9 you are saying. 10 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe we need to come back 11 to that, but I would like to then -- let's see about 56 12 frame poly-phase motors. So if we were to look at 13 definite purpose 56 frame poly-phase motors, my 14 understanding is that they could be tested using the 15 IEEE test procedure. Is that correct? 16 MR. LIN: That's correct. 17 MR. WHITWELL: So we ought to be able to use 18 the scaling on the 56 frame poly-phase motors, scale 19 them just like we would with a general purpose motor; 20 correct? 21 MR. LIN: I think the issue there still is 22 you've got a frame diameter of a 56 frame. And how do

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 140 1 you scale that to a larger diameter ten-horsepower 2 integral horsepower? 3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I guess you could have a 4 3- horsepower 56 frame motor or you could have a 3- 5 horsepower general purpose T-frame motor. You have the 6 efficiency of those. And then you could do the scaling 7 then; right? 8 MR. MALINOWSKI: Guys, this is John 9 Malinowski at Baldor Electric. Can you hear me okay? 10 MR. SACHS: Yes. 11 MR. LIN: We hear you, John. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 13 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes. I just got unmated 14 here. I think we need to step back one place here. 15 Paul was talking about testing a number of different 16 technologies using IEEE-112. And IEEE-112 method B is 17 for 3-phase motors only. It's not for single-phase 18 motors. There is a different IEEE method for that. 19 And there is a different method for testing ECM motors 20 where a drive is involved. 21 Speaking on behalf of our company, we do not 22 test TEA motors on a dynamometer. We do the testing in

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 141 1 the fan, in the air stream, so that we know what the 2 temperature rise is with the particular fan. And we 3 establish a minimum CFM for the motor to meet rating 4 and temperature rise with a particular air-over 5 cooling. So I think there is not a NEMA standard or an 6 industry standard on how we do this. So I think you 7 may get a different answer with respect to that from 8 different motor manufacturers. 9 And as far as scaling, our responses to the 10 DOE on scaling on the motor rule is that you really 11 can't scale. We have shown that technically. And our 12 technical section would like to be online. Roger 13 Daugherty is on the call, and he can address scaling if 14 we -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think, in part, you guys 16 are missing what we are trying to do here. We are not 17 trying to come up with a definitive efficiency value 18 for scaling or by scaling. You guys have your existing 19 AEDMs. You have your existing test procedures. You 20 come up with the ratings as you may. What we are 21 trying to do here is to just provide some method that 22 says, yes, this motor is relatively as efficient as

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 142 1 that one or better. It's not about coming up with, you 2 know, this one is an 80, this one is an 82, and it has 3 to be 100 percent correct. What we are trying to do 4 here is get close and without all of this testing so 5 that they don't have to test every single one of their 6 different combinations of refrigeration system and 7 motor design basically. 8 So while I can appreciate the fact that 9 NEMA's technical committee says that scaling is not the 10 best way to come out with a definitive efficiency value 11 for the purposes of putting it on their nameplate, I do 12 think scaling is a way to get close enough. That is 13 what we are trying to do here. The purpose here is 14 different than you guys coming up with a valid way to 15 rate your products. 16 MR. MALINOWSKI: Ashley? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you need to 18 understand that; right? I mean, that is what we are 19 going for here at least: the premise. 20 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes. This is John 21 Malinowski again. Is it not possible for the fan 22 manufacturer to look at our technical data and motor

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 143 1 efficiency for each different -- I mean, we have 2 product literature that shows that data for the 3 respective horsepower ratings and speeds. Is that not 4 a more accurate or better way of doing it than scaling? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the issue -- I think 6 the problem is that what at least we've heard that has 7 been encountered is that data isn't available for all 8 of the different types of motors and models that they 9 use in their equipment. So if that data is available, 10 great, done deal, even better. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the question becomes when 13 it's not. And so I don't know if you were on at the 14 very beginning and heard the outset, but, you know, 15 when that data is available and you guys are willing to 16 share it with them, it's publicly available, fine, no 17 issue. 18 They can compare, and that's not the ones 19 we're talking about. We're talking about the subset of 20 the market where either the data is not available or 21 there are -- they are motors that there is no industry 22 test procedure for. So we need some type of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 144 1 input/output method to come up with the efficiency, and 2 we need some type of method to scale, to show that that 3 motor is performing at or better than the base design. 4 And that's what we're trying to enlist the 5 help of. We're not trying to say, "This is the nominal 6 full load efficiency of that design." We're trying to 7 say, "Its relative performance is at or better." 8 I'm looking at the ceiling like they're 9 there. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: So I will also add -- this is 11 Jill from Trane. When we came up with this proposal, 12 in theory I really like it. But then I went back to my 13 engineers and said, "Hey, guys, tell me what the 14 efficiency is of all of our motors." And they said, 15 "We don't always have it." I said, "Okay. Can we get 16 that from the motor manufacturers?" "I don't know. I 17 don't have it in the data I get from the motor 18 manufacturers." 19 So my pushback is, can you give me a relative 20 efficiency like Ashley is describing? It doesn't, you 21 know, have to necessarily be something that you're 22 certifying to the government. It's what you're telling

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 145 1 me so that I can turn around and assure that my ratings 2 have not changed, and then I can be in the idea of this 3 proposal such that I am not taking my -- you know, 4 taking advantage of essentially ratings with my 5 oversized motors. 6 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is John Malinowski from 7 Baldor again. Our company, and probably most of the 8 NEMA members on here, work with a lot of different fan 9 manufacturers. And, you know, we routinely supply 10 efficiency data to everyone that asks. That 11 performance data is readily available. 12 Worst case is that it's -- we will have to 13 run it back through Engineering and, you know, get a 14 quick calculation on a model that may not be a 15 standard. But certainly it's something available in a 16 very short time. Should not be a problem for you to get 17 the data. 18 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest. Can you 19 hear me? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 21 MR. RIVEST: Hello? 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 146 1 MR. RIVEST: Okay, good. I'm usually in the 2 room. John, you know, in deriving the scaling, as you 3 know, I simply took the existing table of efficiencies 4 and applied reductions and losses, and, you know, or 5 increases in losses and got bands of 10 percent, 20 6 percent, et cetera. 7 And I realize that it may be that motors are 8 not available with the same loss values and all the 9 horsepower ratings. So, you know, another way we could 10 do this, if we had the data, is if we said, "Well, if 11 the motor being used in the certification unit is in 12 the top quartile of the available products, then the 13 motor being used in all other designs within that 14 grouping should be in the top quartile." Something 15 like that. 16 And if I had the market data, I could run -- 17 you know, I could curve it to it and probably get 18 something that's better than what we have, and that 19 would give everyone the assurance that we're not coming 20 up with designs that can't be built. 21 And certainly I'd, you know, be happy to try 22 and do that if I have the data.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 147 1 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is John Malinowski. I 2 think you should work with our technical committee on 3 that. We have had the same issues with the motor 4 scaling, the reduction of losses from different ways, 5 that was looked at through the Navigant Motor Study. 6 And there were some assumptions made there that didn't 7 work, and it's not going to work here either. 8 So we need to do things that are realistic 9 and attainable. I don't think the industry -- your 10 industry wants us to create super motors that are so 11 expensive that your customers would have a lot of 12 pushback on your product. You know, we don't want to 13 go to permanent magnet motors using neodymium magnets. 14 MR. RIVEST: But you understand they wouldn't 15 go there unless they put that in their base unit, 16 right? 17 MR. MALINOWSKI: If you're trying to reduce 18 losses by 10 and 20 percent, you are walking a fine 19 line there in designing motors that are -- 20 MR. RIVEST: But, John, I'm not trying to do 21 anything. Manufacturers of this equipment can choose 22 to put motors in their equipment that is less

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 148 1 efficient. It can be in the bottom quartile. That's 2 not a problem, right? It's their choice because they 3 will make tradeoffs with other designs, other design 4 options, to get the overall performance of their 5 system. 6 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yep. 7 MR. RIVEST: So what they're doing is they're 8 dialing in the motor efficiency in their certified 9 unit, and they are replicating it throughout every 10 other unit in that group. And what DOE has agreed to 11 do is to not test and not have the manufacturers test 12 those other units, so long as they can demonstrate that 13 the motor is equal in performance or better. 14 And, you know, it could be discussions of how 15 that demonstration would be made, but this is not a max 16 tech pushing thing. There is nothing theoretical about 17 this. And if the scaling is pushing you to 18 efficiencies that require different steels or different 19 technologies at higher horsepower, than the scaling 20 should be changed. And the best way to do it would be 21 through real world data about the product that is being 22 sold today.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 149 1 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes. This is John again. 2 The DOE requires that we put motor efficiency on every 3 motor we sell here in -- that's a covered product. So 4 we are used to putting motor efficiency data and having 5 that readily available. So I think, you know, if you 6 were to look at our product data sheets, I think that 7 would be a good direction. 8 MR. RIVEST: Sure. 9 MR. MALINOWSKI: What we might expect is that 10 for a more efficient unit that a higher efficiency fan 11 might be used, and that would actually lead to us not 12 upsizing the motor but actually allowing us to put a 13 lower horsepower motor on, have the same amount of 14 airflow. And that, you know, is, you know, the system 15 efficiency that historically, you know, we kind of push 16 toward. 17 MR. RIVEST: Right. 18 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger Daugherty with 19 Baldor Electric. From an earlier description, it 20 sounded like you were saying that it's like back in the 21 1970s when, for any given rating of motor, there would 22 be various levels of efficiency motors that were

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 150 1 available from manufacturers, and what they'd call 2 standard efficient, energy efficient, or premium 3 efficient. 4 And you're wanting to try to decide which of 5 those could fit into the product that would meet the 6 overall requirement with the system efficiency. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I disagree. I actually don't 8 think we're doing that at all. 9 MR. DAUGHERTY: But that's the way it was 10 described. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not how it's 12 described. So the HVAC manufacturers are saying, "I 13 want to use this motor and this design." And whatever 14 that is, don't care what it is, say it's the standard 15 motor, this is what they have used in their design. 16 What we are saying is they -- and say that's a one 17 horsepower motor. What they also offer is a three 18 horsepower version and a five horsepower version. And 19 in some cases it's exactly the same type, and in other 20 cases it's not. 21 What we want to make sure is that the three 22 horsepower is a standard or better, and the five

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 151 1 horsepower is a standard or better. There is no push 2 to a better efficiency. There is no push to a 3 different efficiency. What we don't want is I'm 4 switching out to a worse efficiency. 5 In other words, they still at will can design 6 their base products, and their other products, however 7 they want. But the level of performance across a 8 given, for lack of a better term, platform or base 9 grouping has to be the same from the motor. There is 10 no design here. 11 MR. DAUGHERTY: But if you do not know what 12 the efficiency is of the one that you're substituting, 13 how are you going to make a decision? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's why we're having this 15 discussion. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. This is Jill from 17 Trane. That's why I asked, if I came to you and asked 18 for efficiency of all my motors, which it appeared when 19 I talked to some of my engineers we didn't necessarily 20 have, would you be able to give me, you know, the 21 efficiency? And I believe somebody came back and said 22 you could.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 152 1 So, you know, our dilemma is I have, for 2 instance -- I don't know if I have this exactly right, 3 but I think for comparison I have a 10-ton gas/electric 4 packaged unit I make. It has a three horsepower 5 standard motor in it. We go and offer a five or a 6 seven and a half horsepower motor. They have to be the 7 same or better efficiency. And I have to assure that 8 to DOE. 9 So if I come back to you as an HVAC 10 manufacturer to my motor manufacturer and say, "Provide 11 me my efficiencies on all of these motors, so I can 12 make this comparison," that was the premise of my 13 question. Would you give it to me? And would it be 14 all on the same basis? I realize that there might be a 15 difference in test, but we would be talking about 16 three-phase motors all being compared together, or 17 single-phase motors all being compared together, or -- 18 I shouldn't say this -- ECM may not be. ECM may go to 19 -- ECM to a -- because of the availability of ECM 20 motors, it may have to be compared to some single21 phase/poly-phase. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. But we would like --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 153 1 okay. This may be more difficult, but we would like to 2 be able to somehow compare an ECM to a poly-phase, 3 right? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: But -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: But that may be more 6 difficult. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: And why we asked you guys is 8 because we're not necessarily -- I mean, that's great 9 for the person who -- to John who said, "Yes, we can 10 give you efficiency data." But it was our 11 understanding prior to this conversation that that may 12 not be available. So that's where the concept of -- is 13 there some idea of bands that we could go around to 14 say, you know, it's close enough. 15 It's not going -- it's not to push the HVAC 16 manufacturers into buying more efficient products. 17 It's not pushing the manufacturers of motors to offer, 18 you know, more or different types of motors. The idea 19 here is just, with what you're currently doing, is 20 there a way to say, you know, Motor A, Motor B, and 21 Motor C, for a given product platform of HVAC 22 equipment, has roughly the same level of efficiency.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 154 1 It's either a standard motor, it may be a premium 2 motor, whatever. 3 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger Daugherty. But 4 in your evaluation or for the point of comparison, 5 what's the basic comparison? In the example of a three 6 horsepower motor that may be substituted with a five 7 horsepower or seven, for the five horsepower motor, 8 what's the operation point at which you are looking for 9 efficiency? Is it when the five horsepower motor is 10 operating at a three horsepower load and the seven is 11 at a three? Or the five at its full load rating and 12 the seven at its full load? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: The load -- 14 MR. DAUGHERTY: What is the basis -- you're 15 you're making the comparison? 16 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. And 17 what drove -- what is driving this is that all of the 18 air conditioning test standards have a certain static 19 pressure at which is the standard condition for test. 20 Now, not all air conditioning units get applied at that 21 - - in the field at that standard pressure. 22 However, DOE needs to certify that all

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 155 1 products are operating at an equivalent efficiency 2 level. So if I have my unit that was, say, run at the 3 test condition of a quarter inch of static pressure, 4 and I apply it at one inch of static pressure, I'm 5 going to put a much bigger motor on there to make that 6 happen. 7 And so all we're looking for is when I put 8 that bigger motor on there at that point, am I putting 9 a much worse motor efficiency-wise than what I tested 10 at? We know that it's going to pull more watts because 11 the demand of the system that we are attaching it to is 12 not the same as the test condition. 13 So, you know, if we're looking at a one 14 horsepower motor to a five horsepower motor, we'd be 15 looking at a one horse at one horse break horsepower, 16 and at five horse break horsepower. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 18 MR. FLY: Same point on the curve. 19 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is John Malinowski at 20 Baldor. Maybe between Roger and I we can drive down to 21 something here. We keep talking back and forth about 22 standard motors. What we would -- what we in the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 156 1 industry would like you to do is establish an 2 efficiency level that we understand. In other words, 3 the DOE has recognized a couple of different efficiency 4 levels based on our NEMA MG-1 standards. 5 There is a table called 1211, which is energy 6 efficient motors, and we have another table, 1212, 7 which is a premium efficient motor that is a little bit 8 more efficient than that. So if you're talking about a 9 standard motor, and if it's an air over motor, it could 10 be an unregulated motor that doesn't really have an 11 efficiency standard. So -- 12 MR. BOTELER: And, John -- this is Rob -- it 13 doesn't have a test standard either. 14 MR. MALINOWSKI: That is true. So we really, 15 really are operating in vaporware out here on that. 16 When we were to take a larger motor and install it with 17 the same fan, what we need to establish is that five 18 horse or seven and a half or 10 horse motor, we put the 19 three horsepower rated fan on, it is going to operate 20 at a different load point relative to the motor's 21 rating in the efficiency that we have on the nameplate. 22 So to Roger's point, where is that motor

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 157 1 operating relative to its full load point? 2 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest. So like 3 all engineers, we like to complicate things. We are 4 really just asking you to provide the efficiency based 5 on the test procedure at the loading of the test 6 procedure. 7 MR. MALINOWSKI: At what load point? It is 8 not going to run -- 9 MR. RIVEST: When you put a number on a 10 nameplate, what is that load point? 11 MR. MALINOWSKI: That is full load, but you 12 are not running it at full load. 13 MR. RIVEST: Well, it doesn't matter. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't matter. We want 15 full load. That's all we want. 16 MR. MALINOWSKI: It's going to operate at a 17 lighter load, and the efficiency is going to be lower. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: We understand. 19 MR. RIVEST: But you're trying to design a 20 system for us. We don't want you to design a system. 21 We just are asking you if you can provide the full load 22 efficiencies for the motors that you are selling to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 158 1 HVAC manufacturers. 2 MR. MALINOWSKI: Absolutely. They are on the 3 nameplates. 4 MR. RIVEST: So that's -- 5 MR. FLY: We are trying to certify single 6 points for a motor, not the map, not the map of all 7 operating conditions available. And we are not 8 certifying for our HVAC equipment the map. We are 9 certifying a single point. 10 MR. DOPPEL: In your operation of your system 11

-- 12 MR. MALINOWSKI: A single point that the 13 motor may never operate at. 14 MR. RIVEST: Correct. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We understand that. We are 16 beyond that. So that's just -- that's that. 17 MR. MALINOWSKI: There is no problem in 18 giving you the full load efficiency for the motor. 19 That should be something that any motor manufacturer -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: For any type of motor that is 21 incorporated into a commercial HVAC system. That is 22 the issue.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 159 1 MR. BOTELER: This is Rob. I think the 2 answer to that is we will all test slightly 3 differently, so we don't have a DOE test standard that 4 we are testing to. 5 MR. RIVEST: And that applies to the air over 6 motors, correct? 7 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. But earlier -- 8 MR. RIVEST: Air overs, to the multi-speeds, 9 and to the ECMs. 10 MR. WHITWELL: But earlier I heard that at 11 least for 56 frame poly-phase they can be tested per 12 the same - - to the same standard, the IEEE standard, 13 that is used for general purpose motors, correct? 14 MR. RIVEST: No, for small motors. 15 MALE SPEAKER: This is a three phase, and 16 it's a non-air over rated. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So, good. That's one 18 thing we can take off the list. Okay? 19 MR. MALINOWSKI: It is IEEE 114. It's not 20 112. It's 114 for single phase, and it's 112 for three 21 phase. And if it's a plain old open motor, or a plain 22 old enclosed motor, without air over, that can be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 160 1 tested on the dyno. There is a standard procedure for 2 that. There is not a problem. But when you get into 3 air over, everybody does it a little bit different. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And by "a little bit," are we 5 close enough, or are we drastic different? 6 MR. MALINOWSKI: Well, how close is "close"? 7 MR. BOTELER: Two or three bands, is that 8 close enough? 9 MR. RIVEST: No. That's 30 percent 10 difference in losses. 11 MR. BOTELER: Yes. 12 MR. RIVEST: Yeah. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, but within a given -- do 14 you guys all use single suppliers or multiple? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Multiple. 16 (Simultaneous discussion.) 17 MR. MALINOWSKI: Do we use what? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: She was asking us manufacturers 19 if we all use single suppliers, and we said no, we use 20 multiples. Right? We love to push you guys for those 21 motor contracts. 22 MR. MALINOWSKI: We've never noticed.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 161 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. 2 MR. FLY: Must be talking about engineers. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, really, we're talking 4 about -- so, really, it comes down to your HVAC guys 5 here are going to be asking you for the full load of 6 efficiency data of all motors they buy for you that you 7 currently can test to an IEEE procedure. I can tell 8 you that much. 9 And after that, it whittles down to air over, 10 and can we come up with an equitable solution for air 11 over? 12 MR. LIN: Ashley, this is Paul Lin with 13 Regal- Beloit. Can you explain a little bit in terms 14 of what our exposure is relative to certification of 15 the efficiency in the -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I'm 17 the one signing the certification to DOE. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is nothing on the motor 19 manufacturer. It is purely on the HVAC. 20 MS. MEYERS: We would be happy to share that 21 burden, however, should you wish. 22 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is Malinowski again.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 162 1 If from the motor side on totally enclosed motors, if 2 we were to assume the same error flow that we had with 3 our TEFC fan on an air over design, would that be 4 something that we could all agree on as a standard? Or 5 do we need to test it in users' airflow? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't need to be a user 7 airflow. It does need to be standardized, though. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 9 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yep. Got you. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So can all of you on the 11 phone agree? 12 MR. MALINOWSKI: Let us take this back and 13 discuss it, Ashley. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 15 MR. MALINOWSKI: Can we get you an answer in 16 a week? A few days? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: A little less time, if 18 possible, please. 19 MR. MALINOWSKI: End of the week? We've got 20 a conference call tomorrow. We've got a conference 21 call scheduled tomorrow to talk about our testing NOPR. 22 So we could bring this up during that call.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 163 1 (Simultaneous discussion.) 2 MR. WHITWELL: So there is a standardized 3 test for air over motors. So the proposal is to use 4 that to rate the ECMs and the PSCs, or not rate, to 5 provide data to the manufacturers. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're going to talk about a 7 comparable method for those motors that currently don't 8 have an industry agreed-upon test method. Everyone is 9 doing it slightly differently. They are going to see 10 if they can talk -- since they have no exposure, if 11 they can talk about a standardized method for 12 comparability. Otherwise, for full load efficiency, 13 they can provide you the data. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that -- so end of the week 16 okay? I mean, we voted, so it is what it is. 17 MR. AMRANE: We voted. It doesn't matter, 18 then. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the answer is yes. Please 20 provide it to us by Friday, if possible. 21 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'd just like 22 to thank the --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 164 1 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger Daugherty. 2 MR. SACHS: Go ahead, Roger. 3 MR. DAUGHERTY: I'd just like it to be clear, 4 then, when you move to a higher static pressure and put 5 on a higher horsepower motor, you are going to assume 6 that that motor at the higher static pressure will 7 always be running at its full load rated condition. Is 8 that correct? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 10 MR. RIVEST: For the purposes of this 11 exercise, yes. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We all acknowledge what -- it 13 is what it is. 14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. There is a 15 certain level of abstract -- 16 MR. DAUGHERTY: I'm trying to relate to the 17 issue of not having efficiency changing, but typically, 18 at least in the standard motors, when you go from a 19 three horsepower motor to a five horsepower, inherent 20 in that is an increase in efficiency. So the five 21 horsepower runs at a higher efficiency than a three 22 horsepower at full load. That's just the way they're

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 165 1 rated. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 3 MR. DAUGHERTY: And then the same when you 4 step up to a seven horsepower. So you're not trying to 5 look for a five horsepower motor that has the 6 efficiency of the three horsepower motor, you're 7 looking for a five horsepower that has a higher 8 efficiency. Is that right? 9 MR. RIVEST: Yes. The way we described it is 10 relative efficiency and -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the hard number is 12 different. Yeah. 13 MR. RIVEST: Right. And now that's where -- 14 you know, that's where things get tricky with the - 15 with drawing that curve. 16 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is Malinowski again. 17 What you need to be mindful is let's say your base unit 18 is using a premium efficient motor. 19 MR. RIVEST: Yes. 20 MR. MALINOWSKI: Then, you must stay in, you 21 know, the scope of a larger premium efficient motor. 22 You really shouldn't go down and use an energy

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 166 1 efficient, you know -- 2 MS. MEYERS: We got that. 3 MR. MALINOWSKI: -- motor of a larger size. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: We're shaking our head. We're 5 agreeing. We're shaking our head. 6 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger. I thought 7 earlier you said that you could go to a lower 8 efficiency motor by making changes in other components. 9 MR. RIVEST: No. I said that the decision -- 10 this is Mike Rivest. I said that in -- so they create 11 an air conditioner with a small motor which has to 12 achieve the minimum efficiency standard. And the 13 manufacturers make tradeoffs in that design, which may 14 result in an efficient motor or an inefficient motor. 15 And that's the level of efficiency for motors that then 16 becomes the rule for the other motors in that product 17 grouping. 18 So like you said, if they design their 19 certification unit with a premium -- a NEMA premium 20 motor, they will have to buy premium NEMA motors for 21 all other products that they have in that product 22 grouping. So the two -- three horsepower, five

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 167 1 horsepower, seven horsepower, they will all have to be 2 NEMA premium. But they don't have to do that. They 3 can buy a motor and certify their product as a 10 EER 4 using just an efficient motor by making other 5 components in that certification unit more efficient. 6 So that -- the tradeoff that they do is in 7 the certification unit. Once they have established 8 that level, it -- that level for the motor gets 9 translated to the other units. 10 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly. 11 MR. RIVEST: And those other units are never 12 tested for EER again, and they never will be. 13 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I 14 think the real problem is going to be when we get down 15 into the fractional -- where the base unit as a 16 fractional horsepower motor, and we may be moving up 17 into an integral horsepower motor at the high end. 18 That's where we're really concerned because the 19 fractional horsepowers are the ones that are -- the 20 not-rated motors, as I understand it. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep. 22 MR. MALINOWSKI: This is John Malinowski.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 168 1 There is not a NEMA standard for fractionals, but they 2 are marked with efficiency on them. So you can look at 3 what the efficiency of that motor is and look in the 4 respective 1211 or 1212 on three phase. Single phase 5 is a different story. The only single phase motors 6 that have published efficiency ratings are those 7 covered by the DOE small motor rule, and those are open 8 motors, single and three phase, one quarter through 9 three horsepower, and two digit frame sizes. 10 But I expect that all of you will be working 11 with your respective motor suppliers, and they can do 12 due diligence to provide you with that larger motor 13 that exceeds the efficiency of the smaller one you're 14 replacing. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: In theory, that sounds great. 16 So if you guys could talk about it tomorrow on your 17 conference call, while you discuss how great the test 18 procedure NOPR was, we look forward to hearing back 19 from you on Friday. 20 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger again. But 21 just to be clear, you're telling me that once a base 22 model is designed with a certain characteristic motor,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 169 1 relative to its efficiency level, that to go to a 2 higher static pressure system and put on a higher 3 horsepower rated motor, the system's designer no longer 4 has the option to design what he might consider to be 5 an optimized system for some purpose other than just 6 motor efficiency. He is actually being required to use 7 a motor of an efficiency classification that is 8 equivalent to the base model. 9 MR. WHITWELL: No, that's incorrect. The 10 manufacturer has the option -- always has the option to 11 design a different system for the higher static. But 12 we want to have the option to be able to just change 13 the motor to achieve that higher static, and for that 14 we need this efficiency information. 15 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. We 16 will be restricted on the motor efficiency at those 17 higher statics by being no less efficient than the base 18 model, however we choose to define that. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: But they can always elect to 20 have multiple base models at higher statics if they 21 want to do design changes and/or, you know, to use 22 different types of motors at different efficiencies.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 170 1 What we're doing is providing them the flexibility for 2 either/or option, and they elect the choice. This was 3 their -- 4 MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger. But by "no 5 less efficient" -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I don't think this is 7 something necessarily that you need to be worried 8 about. I mean, I do appreciate the concerns, but this 9 is -- 10 MR. DAUGHERTY: I guess we were trying to see 11 whether or not what you were trying to need is 12 efficiency levels at other than rated full load 13 efficiency. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, we do not. We only need 15 full load efficiency for everything. 16 MR. DAUGHERTY: Okay. 17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs from ACEEE. 18 And I want to thank you guys for the presentation. It 19 certified clarified a lot for me. And I hope we have 20 transmitted that this whole ratings thing with a single 21 point is really a sort of Kabuki dance we are all 22 addicted to.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171 1 But having said that, your comments about 2 efficiency for an equivalent design naturally 3 increasing with size leaves me to ask the question 4 whether DOE might simplify things for some classes by 5 requiring that the basic model group be established 6 with the smallest motor offered for sale, which would 7 offer some assurance that unless you move from that 8 good motor to a shaded pole for the higher static, 9 which seems pretty unlikely, that you are always going 10 to have a fairly easy job of establishing that you have 11 no lower efficiency with that oversized motor. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Harvey, we're not negotiating 13 motors here. 14 MR. SACHS: The question -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: They get to negotiate it on 16 their own. 17 MR. SACHS: The question was not motors, but 18 whether this is part -- the size -- the minimum -- 19 whether the basic model group should be specified with 20 the smallest capacity, lowest ESP motor, that will be 21 offered in that product group. If it ain't going to 22 make life easier, don't do it.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 172 1 MR. RIVEST: I mean, it has to be the one 2 that is designed for the test procedure, right? So 3 whatever motor that is. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So I think we 5 have a path forward. So I guess, Alex, will the NEMA 6 stuff come from you, the motor manufacturers? 7 MR. BOESENBERG: Yes. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or is it going to come from 9 someone else on the motors technical team for NEMA? 10 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex. I will 11 provide that response. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So we look forward -- 13 we appreciate you guys all jumping on the phone so 14 quickly and helping us with this. This has been an 15 issue that the Department and the HVAC manufacturers 16 have been discussing for several weeks now, and we 17 really appreciate the help. So we look forward to 18 hearing from you on Friday. 19 MR. MALINOWSKI: Okay. Thanks, Ashley. 20 MR. BOESENBERG: Great. Thank you. Now, get 21 to work on the 38 pages of complements to the test 22 NOPR.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 173 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. That's really 2 nice of you. 3 And I have a feeling in the meantime the HVAC 4 manufacturers will be sending all of you requests for 5 nominal full load efficiencies. 6 MR. BOESENBERG: You can send those directly 7 to the manufacturers. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 9 Thank you. 10 MR. BOESENBERG: Bye-bye. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Bye. Do we have anything 12 else you want to discuss today, or do we have more 13 breakout sessions, or do we want to just break and come 14 back tomorrow? It's 5:00 now. We've been going since 15 8:30. We have made some pretty good progress today. 16 One big issue semi-solved. 17 Break until tomorrow morning? Because it's 18 8:30 again tomorrow morning. Where are we tomorrow, 19 Jeremiah? Oh, yeah, we're back in my office. 20 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 21 You know, we have proposed some things on the 22 verification side, but we have not had any feedback,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 174 1 and we understand there might be feedback. Would it 2 make sense to give us a little feedback now, so we can 3 think about it tonight and then be charged up tomorrow? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you working tonight? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: I am, but it's a conference 6 call from my -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. That's more up to you 8 guys. It might be worthwhile to have -- it's up to 9 you. As like half of the room packed up their stuff. 10 Karen is looking at me with really evil eyes right now. 11 MR. DOPPEL: This is -- I mean, it's mostly 12 HVAC that is left here. Ashley said here was some 13 potential feedback. 14 (Simultaneous discussion.) 15 MR. EISNER: All right. We're going off the 16 record for a few minutes to figure out what we do next. 17 (Brief recess.) 18 MR. EISNER: All right. So we will end the 19 meeting for today, reconvene tomorrow at 8:30 at 750 20 L'Enfant Plaza. 950. Yeah, there is a room number. 21 Hold on. I'll give everybody the information in a 22 second.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 175 1 Tomorrow's meeting is at 950 L'Enfant Plaza, 2 Room 6097, 98, and 99. Starts at 8:30. We're supposed 3 to go until 6:00. 4 (Whereupon, at 5:09 p.m., the proceedings 5 were adjourned.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 I, CHRISTINE ALLEN, the Court Reporter before 3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 10 interest in this proceeding. 11 12 13 14 

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### 2013 176

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Open Meeting 08-27-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 I, LISA SIKES, hereby certify that I am not 3 the Court Reporter who reported the following 4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 8 proceeding. 9 10 11 12 

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 153:2 169:12 ABMA3:5 54:16 absence 134:2 absent57:17 absolute 14:12 absolutely 24:12 47:14 112:20 158:2 abstain 129:12 abstaining72:2 abstract164:15 accelerated51:7 accept34:8 85:14 acceptable 109:8 accepted 32:22 accommodate 6:4 accomplishment 97:22 accordance 43:3 45:5 120:10 121:4 123:11 accounts 7:19 accurate21:4 77:10 143:4 176:7 accurately26:10 138:8 ACEEE 170:17 achieve 25:11 166:12 169:13 acknowledge 94:22 164:12 acknowledging 85:9 acronym71:8 across 27:18 93:14 116:21 151:7 actions 13:13 26:4 active 19:20 actual41:21 85:5 actually20:21 21:10,18 25:10,20 26:19,22 39:8 44:9 50:9 53:16 62:13,15 64:8 65:21 76:18 96:2 100:17 101:4 119:12 121:2 123:10 124:10,12 132:4,8 149:11,12 150:7 169:6 add 39:19,22 65:12 144:10 added 63:9,22 64:12 119:6 addicted 170:22 adding 26:2 63:9 85:2 addition 13:4,19 102:16 additional9:21 10:1 14:1,18 15:6 18:17 26:22 27:4 43:12 64:1 115:13 address 16:17 17:7,18 22:22 26:7,9 31:14 88:9 110:10 141:13 addresses 19:22 46:11 88:7 adjourned 175:5 advantage 45:17 49:8 145:4 adverse 58:21 59:4,11,14 60:1,2,3 advertised 64:5 ADVISORY1:5 advocates 31:4 AEDM7:6 9:22 13:16 33:15 36:19 44:9,14 45:1 60:8,14,19 61:2,6,8,12 AEDMs 10:15 14:10 22:9 28:18 38:16 44:7,17 46:3,21 54:11 103:17 112:3 114:20 141:19 Affairs 3:4 affect52:8 affected 5:16 16:14 afford 72:4 against17:2 137:22 agency107:4 116:6 aggressive 48:14 50:8 ago 42:5 43:1 48:2 86:11 agreed 6:4 10:16 16:19 40:20 97:18 103:16 125:18,19 148:10 agreed-upon 163:8 agreeing 122:18

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 162:3 163:3 166:11 Air-Conditioning 2:6,11 air-cooled 39:19 airflow 149:14 162:5,7 air-over132:5 133:8,11,14 134:3,19 135:7 136:12 137:14 138:1 141:4 Alex2:12 130:4,7,14 131:4 132:12 134:5 172:5,10 algorithm 134:16 Allen 1:20 176:2,15 Alliance 4:7 allow 77:18 103:10 120:9 allowed 75:19 84:11 allowing 28:14 149:12 alluded 62:14 already6:17 9:22 19:19 46:2 58:9 73:12 80:3 84:20 85:14 90:2 124:19 alternate 37:14 alternative 57:16,17 66:22 69:4 123:4 am16:14 17:1 18:5 19:10 23:15 24:10,13 25:1 26:18 29:9 34:1 42:12 47:17 48:20 56:16 57:4 61:4,11 67:3,10 68:1,7,8 70:4 74:3 75:16 76:6,7,15 81:4 83:17 84:2 93:8 94:4 98:2 103:5,7 109:4 117:2 121:10 138:1 145:3 155:8 174:5 176:7 177:2 178:2 ambient43:4,6 American4:2 78:3 among107:6 amount17:3 57:2 149:13 Amrane2:6 15:14 40:17,20 41:9,11 50:20 51:5 52:6 56:7,18,22 57:18,22 67:8,20 72:7,11,14 73:11 74:3 75:6,9 82:15,17 83:10 87:12 119:5,16 163:17 analogue 109:5,6 Analyst2:16 anchor 103:11 and/or 63:20 169:21 anecdotal50:15 51:15 announce131:2 annual 106:1 116:19 annually11:6,9,18 12:4,5,8 answer 141:7 159:2 162:15 163:19 anybody 35:16 36:2 40:15 50:12,15 54:14 55:6,7,11 67:15 107:8 111:12 114:10 129:10,12 anyone 59:13 80:12 132:6 anything 17:21 18:10 26:13 35:8 47:7 51:2 54:15 64:10 65:18 79:10 84:5 107:12,19 129:17 147:21 173:11 anyway 50:22 70:16 83:17 124:15 Anyways 119:21 anywhere19:12 48:15 appear 68:12 appeared 151:18 appears 55:5 APPLIANCE 1:4 appliances 105:20 application 128:2 135:3 applications 55:1 122:20 127:16 131:13 applied 88:10 113:8 146:4 154:20 applies 73:1 75:14 88:8 159:5 apply 72:8 155:4 appreciate 31:3 69:22 76:12 89:8 110:14 117:9 142:8 170:8 172:13,17 appreciation 95:2 approach 24:3,16 66:21 92:9 approaches 66:14,22 67:1 appropriate 77:9 119:13 approval 66:11 approvals 126:8 approve 53:18 56:3 approved 69:17 83:5 127:4 April48:4 area81:19 96:22 103:8 areas 7:2 56:1 97:19 114:5 aren't124:3 arguing 110:2 argument70:20 Aris 3:15 Armstrong2:8 35:1 94:3 118:17,21 119:1,20 120:2 122:10,14,16 123:1,21 124:14

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 125:7,22 126:3,11,14,19 127:6 128:18,21 129:15 130:7,9,11,13,17 ,21 131:3 132:12 133:22 134:8 141:15 142:17 143:5,12 150:7,11 151:14 153:4,7 154:13 155:17 157:14,18 158:15,20 160:4,13 161:3,18 162:6,10,14,17 163:6,15,19 164:9,12 165:2,11 168:15 169:19 170:6,14 172:4,8,12 173:1,8,11 174:4,7 arrangement 109:19 articles 17:12 Ashley2:8 27:21 44:13 52:1 118:14,16 122:11 133:21 142:16 144:20 161:12 162:13 172:19 174:12 ASHRAE 86:17 aspect66:17 aspects 55:20 68:11 103:7 ASRAC 2:15 7:6 33:16 55:22 56:1,2 57:13 60:15 61:2,12 91:22 107:3 121:17 124:2 126:6,10,22 127:1,4 assessment27:2 69:19 assigned 36:3 assisted 86:18 associated 32:16 association 33:11 66:9,18 association's 66:20 assume41:14 68:2 88:17 162:2 164:5 assumed 53:7 133:13 assuming 56:2 57:22 61:6,8 126:7 136:10 assumption 53:2,11 57:19 133:7 assumptions 137:4 147:6 assurance 17:1,10 79:18 123:15 146:19 171:7 assure 145:1 152:7 assured 57:4 73:5 attaching 155:11 attainable 147:9 attainments 29:7 attention 5:3 66:2 attitude 28:2 audit 63:13,20,21 August1:16 authority102:2,11 108:14,15 availability28:13 152:19 available 8:4,7 83:16,19 143:7,9,15,16,20 145:11,15 146:8,12 149:5 150:1 153:12 158:7 Avenue 1:13 average43:4,6 avoiding105:17 aware 6:16,20 22:20 34:1 awareness 19:21 away 28:9 30:11 80:10B backed 20:18 backwards 30:8 bad 17:11 28:10 124:11 balance 9:13 balanced 80:15 Baldor 2:20 3:14 140:9 145:7 149:19 155:20 Ballo 2:9 52:22 58:13,19 88:6 balls 81:10 bands 146:5 153:13 160:7 barely87:8 Barhydt 2:10 6:13 8:8,18 9:4,7 14:14 15:21 19:13,16 33:14 34:14,17,20 35:3,6 36:13,16 37:18 40:5,13,19 41:1,8,10,12 42:6,22 44:5,15,17,19,22 45:4 49:3 52:5,9,13 53:6 54:9,21 55:17 56:15 57:6,9,15,21 58:11,16 60:11,13 61:1,6,11,15,18, 22 62:6,13 63:6 65:15,21 71:10,13 74:7,14 75:3 83:7 91:7 93:16 94:7,17,20 95:13 102:4,7 104:5,7 110:19 117:14,18 118:7,11,19 barrier66:13 77:14 barriers 68:2 barring 58:20 base 31:17 85:16 120:9,14 121:8 122:19,21 123:6 124:9,10,11,16 125:9,15 127:15 129:5 131:8,11,19 139:6 144:3 147:15 151:6,8 165:17 167:15 168:21 169:8,17,20 based 36:18 38:16

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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