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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 + + + + +

 CENTRAL AIR CONDITIONER REGIONAL STANDARDS

 ENFORCEMENT WORKING GROUP

 + + + + +

 PUBLIC MEETING

 + + + + +

 Wednesday

 September 3, 2014

 + + + + +

The Public Meeting met in Suite 8E-089, 1000

Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at

9:00 a.m., Neil Eisner, Meeting Facilitator,

presiding.

PRESENT

NEIL EISNER, Meeting Facilitator

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, U.S. Department of Energy

TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice

LAURA BARHYDT, U.S. Department of Energy, General

 Counsel 

KEITH DENNIS, National Rural Electric Cooperative

 Association 

JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand

GARY FERNSTROM, California Investment Owned

 Utilities 

JOHN GIBBONS, Carrier Corporation 

MATTHEW LATTANZI, NORDYNE Inc. 

CHARLES McCRUDDEN, Air Conditioning Contractors

 of America 

KAREN MEYERS, Rheem Manufacturing Company

ELIZABETH NOLL, Natural Resources Defense Council
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PRESENT: (cont'd)

STEVE PORTER, Johnstone Supply

DOUG RAWALD, U.S. Department of Energy, General

 Counsel

ANIRUDDH ROY, Goodman Manufacturing Company

BRYAN ROCKY, Johnson Controls 

HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an Energy-

 Efficient Economy

AMY SHEPHERD, Air-Conditioning, Heating and

 Refrigeration Institute

CHARLES WHITE, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling

 Contractors - National Association 

DAVID WINNINGHAM, Allied Air Enterprises

ALSO PRESENT

KARIM AMRANE, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 

 Refrigeration Institute

DANIEL COHEN, U.S. Department of Energy, General

 Counsel

LAURA DEGITZ, Navigant Consulting

JOHN HURST, Lennox International 

JON MELCHI, HARDI

CRAIG MESSMER, Unico*

TERRY SMALL, Mortex Products Incorporated*

ERIC STAS, U.S. Department of Energy,

 General Counsel

*via teleconference 
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 A-G-E-N-D-A

Presentation on Replacement Coils 

Terry Small. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

Discussion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11

DOE Homework Assignments . . . . . . . . . . . . .56

Issues

Record Retention . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .64

Warranty Information . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 99

DOE Investigation Process. . . . . . . . . . . . 99

Consequences . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 134

Violation. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 163

Restrictions on Shipment . . . . . . . . . . . . 297
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 9:06 a.m.

3 MR. EISNER: Did everybody have a good

4 weekend? As you know, when we left off last week

5 Terry Small had wanted to do some talk. I think

6 it has to do with a waiver. 

7 He did pass around some material. And

8 he is on the line. We agreed we'd let him start

9 off today with the issue he wanted to discuss. 

10 So unless anybody's got any

11 preliminary stuff they want to ask about we'll go

12 right to Terry.

13 All right. Terry, you're online, you

14 can hear us?

15 MR. SMALL: Yes. Can everybody hear

16 me?

17 MR. EISNER: Yes.

18 MR. SMALL: Okay. First, I want to

19 thank the working group and of course Doug and

20 Neil for allowing me to make this presentation

21 concerning the proposed DOE guidance for

22 replacement coils.
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1 I'm Terry Small, CEO of Mortex

2 Products, Inc. 

3 Doug, I was wondering, before I get

4 started, could you restate your -- you know, it

5 was really hard to hear last week. Would you

6 restate the proposal you have for individual coil

7 replacements? If you've got it in front of you,

8 or you can remember it from memory.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So, Terry, this is Laura

10 Barhydt. Doug is going to be in around 10 this

11 morning. And so I'm sitting in for him.

12 MR. SMALL: Oh, okay. Okay. So, if

13 what I heard correctly was basically that the

14 individual coil had to have a rating, for

15 instance, to be used in the South had to have a

16 rating of at least 14 SEER.

17 MS. BARHYDT: That's correct.

18 MR. SMALL: Is that what I heard? 

19 Okay. So, Laura, I'll continue on then. 

20 So, basically the proposed guidance

21 is, you know, for the regulation of the

22 replacement of single evaporator coils. But you
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1 know, really, this has really never been done

2 before for service coils to my knowledge.

3 And their coils are regulated as part

4 of the system. And the evaporator coil,

5 condenser coil and compressor are all components

6 of a matched system, whether it be a split system

7 or a packaged system.

8 So, if one of those components fails

9 for whatever reason it's typically replaced with

10 its original or like kind part and the system's

11 performance as it was installed new is

12 maintained.

13 So, I really, I've got two examples. 

14 I think that it may be semantics and I know it's

15 just a proposed -- you're making the proposal

16 subject to comments and rethinking. 

17 But the first slide I put up there

18 I've got two examples of replacement coil issues,

19 if everybody is seeing the slide on the

20 presentation. 

21 So in the first example let's say that

22 this year there's a new system that's installed
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1 in Virginia in somebody's basement. It's

2 basically, it's going along with the standard

3 efficiency gas furnace. 

4 It's a legal 13 SEER 3-ton condensing

5 unit. It's got an 18-inch tall evaporator in the

6 case on top of the furnace, you know, et cetera.

7 So let's fast forward to 2015. Let's

8 say that next year there's a leak in that coil,

9 in that evaporator coil that's really not

10 repairable.

11 And of course, the coil is part of a

12 10-year warranty so it's only 1 year into the

13 warranty. 

14 Would you change the slide, please,

15 Laura or whoever? Or Jeremiah? Go to the next

16 one?

17 So, the original evaporator is now --

18 evaporator coil is now not listed in any 14 SEER

19 combination. 

20 So based on the proposal that Doug

21 made last week, or you know, further discussed

22 last week, it couldn't legally be installed as a
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1 replacement in Virginia which is of course in the

2 South.

3 So, you know, the homeowner is faced

4 with either installing a larger evap coil which

5 might require tearing out the duct work, et

6 cetera, putting in some different duct work.

7 Or if the basement creates a tight

8 situation that you can't modify the duct work to

9 allow the taller coil then basically you might be

10 faced with completely changing the system out. 

11 That would be very expensive.

12 Jeremiah, could you go to the next

13 slide?

14 Okay. Now, the second example, and I

15 think most of you know that we're active in the

16 manufactured housing/mobile home type air

17 conditioning stuff.

18 If this was a mobile home installation

19 in Virginia the coil really can't get any taller

20 because it has to fit into a cavity that's part

21 of a HUD-approved mobile home furnace. And you

22 know, you can't modify those things.
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1 So, Jeremiah, next slide.

2 This is just an example for those of

3 you that aren't familiar with the way the mobile

4 home furnace works. 

5 You know, it's a niche type product. 

6 It's got a very specific footprint that's been --

7 there are loads of these things out there. 

8 They're built into typically an alcove. There's

9 just no room to modify anything at all. You

10 can't modify the actual furnace itself.

11 The cavity is what it is and it

12 typically would take maybe an 18-2 hot coil. So,

13 Jeremiah, could you go to the next?

14 So, here's the situation. If you look

15 at the coil on the right. So that coil in an

16 installation in Virginia to fit in that furnace

17 would be a legal combination of 3.5 ton coil,

18 say, 13 SEER.

19 So, if you go in and you had to rate

20 that same coil that would fit, that really would

21 end up being about a 2.5 ton coil at 14 SEER. 

22 Or the proper combination to be legal
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1 in the South would be this 24-inch tube hot coil,

2 24-inch hot coil in a 3.5 ton 14 SEER. But that

3 is not going to fit in that mobile home furnace

4 cavity. Jeremiah, next slide.

5 So, you know, to me, as I say, we

6 don't believe that DOE has really ever regulated

7 service coils before. We strongly feel like the

8 evaporator is a component. 

9 You know, for instance, an evaporator

10 that's built into a package unit that sits

11 outside the house, if you have a coil fail in a

12 package unit, an evaporator coil fail, the

13 package unit sitting outside the house, you just

14 replace it. Nobody would ever argue about that.

15 Likewise if the compressor in that

16 package failed you'd just replace it.

17 But under the proposed treatment of

18 replacement coils; a built system obviously has

19 the evaporator in the house in a coil cavity, in

20 a mobile home coil cavity.

21 So, we'd like to see that service

22 coils or replacement coils, whatever you want to
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1 call them, if they're going back in an existing

2 application, a casing cabinet, cavity, plenum,

3 whatever, that it is what it is, they should be

4 excluded from the guidance. In fact, I'm

5 wondering why the replacement coil should really

6 be in the guidance except when they come to -- it

7 comes to a new installation. We don't disagree

8 with that at all.

9 And I guess finally, if this first

10 solution is not adopted maybe, I guess the second

11 solution would be some sort of a waiver situation

12 for these situations. Maybe even an industry13 wide waiver you know, waiving anything that would

14 be considered a service coil. 

15 So I will -- I guess I'll open it up

16 to the floor for any comments or questions or

17 whatever. Thank you. 

18 MR. EISNER: Anybody have comments? 

19 Harvey?

20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And

21 Terry, thank you very much. It was very helpful

22 to me. 
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1 I do have just a straightforward

2 question. Suppose instead of your first example

3 from 2013 R410A installation in Virginia we think

4 about what seems to me the more likely case of an

5 8-year-old R22 unit that fails.

6 Are you proposing any different

7 treatment for that R22 coil which is likely to be

8 short tube or other fixed metering device. 

9 Or how are we going to -- how are you

10 proposing we deal with that older equipment and

11 assuring that we get the appropriate charge when

12 that replacement is done?

13 MR. SMALL: Well, Harvey, and I don't

14 have to tell you. You're an expert in your own

15 right.

16 But you know, when you think about it,

17 let's just look at a package system as an

18 example.

19 You know, a package system basically

20 has a compressor. It has a condenser coil around

21 the compressor. It has a condenser fan.

22 Then on the other side of a piece of
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1 sheet metal is a blower and an evaporator coil. 

2 And that system was designed to work using that

3 specific evaporator.

4 And if you had a failure. Let's say

5 that you had an R22 package unit that wasn't --

6 you had a massive leak in the evaporator in the

7 field of the coil. You know, when I say the

8 field, in between the tubes and the fins that it

9 cannot be fixed, can't be braised or anything.

10 Would you think that it would be bad,

11 even if it's eight years old and if the consumer

12 didn't want to spend several thousand dollars on

13 a new package unit, would you have an issue if

14 they went back with the same service evaporator

15 coil? In that situation on a package unit.

16 MR. SACHS: Okay. So --

17 MR. SMALL: After all, the system --

18 the original package unit was designed, it's

19 expecting to see R22, a certain size evaporator

20 coil.

21 The system was designed around that

22 evaporator coil and that refrigerant. So, true
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1 that when you fix the -- when you put a new

2 service evaporator coil in the package unit, you

3 know, the SEER is probably still going to be 10,

4 Harvey. But, you know, you haven't violated the

5 design.

6 What I'm arguing on the split system,

7 if there's not the room -- now, if you're

8 replacing, you're putting a new condenser in and

9 a new coil sitting on top of the furnace, then

10 I'm adamant that it needs to be 14. It needs to

11 be R410A, 14 SEER. I have no qualms about that.

12 But if the unit sitting on the outside

13 is still the older R22 10 SEER it's designed for

14 a certain size evaporator, and there's only so

15 much space allocated for that evaporator, then I

16 believe the industry would always go back and put

17 in an equivalent like kind evaporator.

18 And you know that would, you'd

19 continue to be putting a Band-aid on a 10 SEER

20 R22 system. Make any sense?

21 MR. SACHS: No, it's very helpful,

22 Terry, and I appreciate it.
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1 The other factual question it leads to

2 is just are you and your competitors still

3 manufacturing and stocking for your distributors

4 the exact replacement coils for the obsolete

5 systems?

6 MR. SMALL: Well, of course, the

7 question is how obsolete. 

8 Now, my example was just a recently

9 built so that would be no problem. 

10 And in fact, remember that the

11 consumer protection requirements which are state

12 by state, sometimes federal, I mean I would be

13 remiss if I didn't stock something that could

14 replace one of my older coils. 

15 I mean, I would be -- just like I

16 stock, you know, a lot of control systems have

17 gone to digital, but I still stock analog stuff. 

18 So, now how far back? I don't know. 

19 Do I stock something that we would have made, you

20 know, 10-15 years ago? I doubt it.

21 But I do think that there's an

22 obligation to the consumer. I mean, we're not in
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1 a position that we want to force the consumer to

2 buy a whole new system. 

3 So, I guess there's a gray area,

4 Harvey. And I don't believe that DOE has really

5 in my mind ever regulated service coils.

6 I would love for one of my system

7 manufacturer OEM friends to jump in here if one

8 of you guys would.

9 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

10 Johnstone Supply. I don't see anything or have

11 read anything that is regulating replacement

12 coils. 

13 So I mean, I plan on carrying the

14 coils as a distributor to support the replacement

15 of any older unit that that side of the system

16 failed with a leak. This is what we're talking

17 about is a system here on 14 SEER in the newer

18 unit. 

19 So, unless somebody else has something

20 they can show me that gives different guidance

21 that's the way it is. So I think you're -- much

22 ado about nothing.
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1 MR. ROCKY: So, this is Bryan Rocky

2 from Johnson Controls.

3 So, the guidance that was issued,

4 Steve, by DOE does not differentiate between a

5 replacement assembly or a part now. That's the

6 issue. It talks about individual condensing unit

7 or coils as replacements.

8 So to me the issue ends up being

9 basically if you're going to replace a service

10 coil that is a component just like a compressor. 

11 You're putting a new coil in an existing box that

12 was sold as part of a previous system.

13 Unfortunately, the way the guidance

14 came out from DOE it does not read that. It says

15 a coil must be part of a 14 SEER system. So that

16 by the terminology that we have a couple of weeks

17 still to comment on to me says the Department is

18 trying to eliminate the replacement parts of

19 coils for equipment going back 15 years or so.

20 To answer Harvey's question, we

21 currently supply replacement parts for units

22 under direct warranty. We have 10-year
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1 warranties available that are in force. So our

2 company position is we will provide those

3 replacement coils during the lifetime of that

4 warranty.

5 Not every manufacturer does it the

6 same. It is a volume-based business and in some

7 cases very low volume replacement parts might be

8 replaced with a new part as part of a design

9 system today. But we still sell -- the vast

10 majority of service coils are for products not 1

11 year, 2 years, 5 years, it's the 5 to 15 years

12 out.

13 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. All

14 of this is very helpful. 

15 I'm an equal opportunity offender so

16 I want to then turn back to Laura as Doug's proxy

17 and ask -- get the question this way.

18 Given that a given coil, and

19 fortunately Ashley has just come in also.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Very fortunate for me.

21 MR. SMALL: Hey Ashley, you missed my

22 presentation.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm prepared. I read

2 it last night. I'm ready to go.

3 (Laughter) 

4 MR. SMALL: So, did you just wait

5 until after I was finished to come in?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not exactly planned. 

7 I'm still adjusting to my daughter starting

8 kindergarten yesterday. 

9 MR. SMALL: Oh, okay. Well, that's

10 important.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

12 MR. SMALL: More important probably

13 than replacement coils.

14 (Laughter)

15 MR. SACHS: Returning to our theme and

16 my question for Laura -- Laura, now Ashley -- the

17 guidance document then says that if you replace a

18 coil but not the condensing unit it's got to meet

19 the new spec. Meaning it's got to yield a match

20 14.

21 Has the Department thought about how

22 that would be enforced in terms of persistent
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1 violations or even individual violations?

2 It's something I've not come to any

3 conclusions on myself.

4 MR. ROCKY: So, this is Bryan. If I

5 could expand on that and give you ladies a chance

6 to think to that and answer that question.

7 What I see this is it comes down to

8 two different options. Terry talked about it

9 already in his presentation.

10 If I have a service part compressor or

11 a service part replacement coil I believe under

12 the guidance that I can still install that in the

13 field. That our distribution partners sell it to

14 a contractor. It's a replacement part. It's not

15 a component of the system.

16 However, if I'm in a situation I

17 cannot provide that replacement part because of

18 age, or inventory concerns, whatever, and I am

19 going to have the contractor install a new coil

20 assembly as a finished goods in lieu of a

21 replacement part, the guidance tells me that

22 replacement assembly has to meet the 14 SEER
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1 system definitions. That's a different situation

2 than replacing a part. It's a component.

3 Now, that's my question to Ashley and

4 Laura and Doug as we go forward on the guidance. 

5 And that's one of the things we're going to be

6 commenting on on this guidance. 

7 I think it's a key descriptor of the

8 issues for our contractors as we -- what is legal

9 to be done.

10 If it's a part it's not regulated. If

11 it's an assembly, a finished good item that we

12 have for sale, then it has to be required as I

13 understand, or our understanding as a company of

14 this guidance.

15 MR. SACHS: Thank you very much and

16 you've certainly helped me with one issue,

17 clarified that despite Terry's suggestion I'm not

18 an expert.

19 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt Lattanzi

20 at NORDYNE. And my company is -- we participate

21 heavily in the manufactured home market segment

22 along with Bryan's. And I agree with much of
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1 what I heard.

2 And we talked about this in an earlier

3 session here. I can't remember which day. Some

4 of them are starting to run together a little bit

5 for me.

6 But the verbiage that's in question,

7 it's at the bottom of page 3 in the second

8 guidance, the last paragraph. It's the first

9 sentence.

10 And it reads, "An individual

11 condensing unit or coil must meet," and then it

12 goes on.

13 And again, we talked about this

14 earlier and the way I remember we left it is that

15 we would comment on it respectively and then go

16 from there. 

17 But I mean, I do see an issue here on

18 the replacement side of the business. And I

19 agree with much of what I heard.

20 Relative to a new install if you're

21 replacing the indoor appliance and the outdoor

22 appliance then we've got to make sure that that
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1 system makes 14 SEER.

2 But when that individual coil fails

3 and it's inside an alcove, I mean, there's an

4 issue here.

5 MR. EISNER: Anybody else want to

6 speak? Are you ready for them, Laura and Ashley? 

7 Okay, I guess we can't put it off any longer.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Let me think

9 what I want to say first, Neil.

10 So, just to clarify. Obviously this

11 is draft guidance. It was put out as draft and

12 it's open for comments. So, a couple of things

13 for consideration while you formulate your

14 potential comments and then submit them to the

15 actual comment box associated with the guidance.

16 One would be that as Bryan explained

17 the guidance doesn't differentiate between what

18 you're calling coils that may go in what I'll

19 call replacement situations or fixing situations,

20 as you call them as parts, versus coils that may

21 go in as just a whole new package coil kind of

22 thing.
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1 It's all coils. So if there is a

2 differentiation that you feel needs to be made we

3 would ask why and how and explain that to us. 

4 Because right now it's all coils and all

5 condensing units. And that's explicitly how it's

6 written in the draft guidance that was put out

7 for comment. 

8 So, if you're asking DOE to consider

9 differentiation between different types of coils

10 that may be sold as parts more like compressors

11 as you're explaining we would ask why they're

12 more like compressors and not like condensing

13 units.

14 I understand Terry's presentation and

15 some of the explanations in terms of the space

16 constraints issues and that type of stuff. So I

17 can appreciate those and that will go in the

18 docket.

19 But we're going to ask you why and how

20 you would differentiate those being sold as just

21 parts versus those being sold as -- as

22 replacement packages type things for lack of
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1 better terms. And then how would we know what

2 difference. 

3 MR. EISNER: Can I ask for

4 clarification? The issue about HUD regulations. 

5 Is that an actual conflict, or is that something

6 that can be worked out? Do you know? I mean, is

7 this something that you have to talk to HUD about

8 or are you aware of this situation?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I think I need to

10 go back and look a little. I didn't have a

11 chance to look into their regulations. 

12 I wasn't aware that there was an issue

13 before. But I'm happy to look into it now that

14 it's been brought to our attention.

15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey with

16 another question.

17 Bryan, I think I understood from you,

18 leaving out mobile homes for now, but

19 conventional single-family and similar split

20 systems, a coil assembly would roughly correspond

21 to a cased coil and a coil as part would roughly

22 correspond to an uncased coil? Is that roughly
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1 there, or can you help me?

2 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan. So, by our

3 definition that would be correct, that a finished

4 goods part has a certain set of model numbers and

5 it's a complete assembly. 

6 So, with sheet metal, with refrigerant

7 metering devices, with everything that you have

8 to drop that new finished good assembly into an

9 application.

10 A replacement part coil has a

11 different model nomenclature. It does not have a

12 finished goods number. It has a source 1. 

13 Our trade, our warranty group has a

14 separate part number. It's the coil only. Not

15 refrigerant devices if it's not attached. It's

16 just the evap coil and a drain pan. And that's

17 the way it's shipped.

18 So the anticipation of the field is

19 you pull the old coil out because it's too costly

20 to repair, or it's not repairable. You slide the

21 new coil assembly in the existing sheet metal.

22 The uncased coils or the mobile home
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1 coils is both. We track finished goods as a

2 finished good part number regardless and then we

3 track warranty parts as a different part number

4 to help us track sales, inventory.

5 And, again, a part, a replacement part

6 does not have all of the controls or components

7 that go into the finished good. They're not

8 serialized. There's no inventory tracking as far

9 as a date code on a replacement part. It's a

10 part. You can track finished goods by all of our

11 requirements.

12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And thank

13 you very much, that's very helpful to me.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, can I ask a

15 question? What are you doing today with those

16 that you're calling non-finished goods? Are you

17 rating them? Are they certified?

18 MR. ROCKY: So, a non-finished good,

19 a replacement part --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: A replacement coil. 

21 I'll talk coils.

22 MR. ROCKY: So, a replacement coil is
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1 not part of a rated system today. It is not

2 serialized. It is not the same model numbers as

3 part of our rated coils. They're replacement

4 parts.

5 Just like a compressor or a condenser

6 coil is the same parts that go into a system that

7 is rated, it's not -- the repair parts for -- a

8 replacement coil, a compressor, a condenser fan,

9 an evap coil, a TXV, those are not -- they're

10 part of systems that are certified, but as stand11 alone components they're just parts. They go out

12 and be replaced in the field.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, let me make sure

14 I understand this. You say they're parts of

15 systems that were certified. They were once

16 parts. So you may very well be discontinuing

17 that system, but continuing to make the coil. Is

18 that accurate?

19 MR. ROCKY: We sell a lot of

20 replacement parts, compressors, condenser fans,

21 evap coils and condensers for 10 SEER products

22 today.
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1 We cannot build those products. We do

2 not rate those components today as a system. But

3 they're legitimate repair parts and they're sold

4 for the field to repair units that were certified

5 under 10 SEER requirements back, I can't remember

6 how many years ago now that was.

7 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt. It was

8 2005, or the end of 2005 when we went to 13.

9 MR. ROCKY: And again, part of that is

10 we offer 10-year warranties. And you could still

11 have a 10 SEER unit that has failed under

12 warranty.

13 MR. LATTANZI: And that would be

14 correct because we stopped manufacturing at the

15 end of '05. And some of our warranties are 12

16 years.

17 MR. EISNER: Terry, you wanted to add

18 something? Terry Small, are you still there?

19 MR. SMALL: Oh, I think Bryan handled

20 what I was going to comment on.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay. Craig Messmer, you

22 wanted to make a point about striking the coil
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1 from the language? Craig, are you there online?

2 MR. MESSMER: I'm here. Can you hear

3 me?

4 MR. EISNER: Yes.

5 MR. MESSMER: I'm sorry, I'm not in

6 the office so I'm on my mobile phone.

7 It makes no sense to consider putting

8 a new coil if it's rated into an old system. 

9 There's no energy benefit at all. It should be

10 and it is today considered just a replacement

11 part. So, in order to correct this you just need

12 to strike the coil from the language in that

13 guidance. 

14 Otherwise, the only way to get the

15 higher efficiency is to replace both indoor and

16 outdoor units. You're not going to get any

17 energy benefit, even if you put a new coil in. 

18 So I don't see the issue here.

19 MR. EISNER: Is there any disagreement

20 on that point?

21 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan Rocky. So

22 the issue becomes the way the guidance is written
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1 today prevents us from doing as an industry

2 practice what we've done for a long time. And

3 that is maintain replacement parts for field

4 failures that match the original install.

5 MR. EISNER: But is there agreement

6 that it will not improve efficiency to use a

7 higher rated coil?

8 MR. ROCKY: The direction of the

9 guidance will create a mixed match system that we

10 cannot validate what the performance was. 

11 That 10 SEER outdoor unit system when

12 you replace the coil with a 14 SEER equivalent

13 coil will not have the same performance, it will

14 not have the same operating characteristics and

15 it has the potential to create new field issues

16 because the coil would be not correctly sized for

17 the condenser and the line set.

18 So there is a real risk to our

19 customers. And I think Steve and Charlie and

20 others would agree as far as the field results of

21 this.

22 And I can't tell you what the results
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1 are going to be because I can't rate a 10 SEER

2 outdoor unit with this new evap coil.

3 MR. EISNER: Is it possible efficiency

4 could be less than it would have been if you used

5 the original coil?

6 MR. ROCKY: I'll let somebody else

7 talk.

8 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

9 Johnstone Supply. Yes.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why?

11 MR. PORTER: The coil was never

12 designed with this system. We'd have to go

13 through all kinds of testing to look at what the

14 rating could be. It could be oversized, it could

15 be undersized. There's a myriad of conditions.

16 I mean, what you're doing is you're

17 obsoleting every person's air conditioning unit

18 out there right now with that language. 

19 So, if I bought a 12 SEER 11 years ago

20 now I have to put -- I have to get a new system,

21 or I have to match it with something that may

22 make my system less efficient? That's what
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1 you're saying.

2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Let me

3 try a lay approach to this.

4 My expectation would be that that SEER

5 14 rated -- if such a thing were possible -- coil

6 going into that SEER 10 unit -- and we'll assume

7 it fits -- that we don't have a refrigerant

8 change-out issue -- is going to be physically

9 larger and have larger surface area.

10 Now, just to add a little bit of

11 detail to what others have said, to me there are

12 a couple of issues.

13 One of them is it's likely to have a

14 whole lot more coil area which is likely to mean

15 that in this field installation we'll have --

16 which is presumably a PSC single stage

17 compressor, et cetera -- we're likely to have a

18 warmer evaporator and less humidity removal. And

19 we're talking about the South.

20 So we've got all these issues that our

21 lab ratings on which we base SEER are at

22 unrealistically low ESPs. So in general we're
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1 getting lower air flow than we might like which

2 enhances humidity removal, but that's going to be

3 fought by the much larger surface area. 

4 So, when Bryan says he can't calculate

5 it I think Hugh Henderson could but then another

6 part of DOE would say, gee, you can't even think

7 about a research paper that includes application

8 ratings. 

9 So it really gets into a rough ball of

10 wax. And I don't know how one would predict the

11 performance.

12 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt Lattanzi

13 with NORDYNE. In addition, I think where Harvey

14 was going was basically air flow.

15 But in addition to air flow issues I

16 think this larger coil is not only going to be a

17 larger surface area, but it's going to have more

18 volume and therefore require an adjustment in

19 refrigerant charge which if not done correctly

20 will definitely decrease the performance of that

21 system, likely below where it was operating with

22 the original coil.
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1 MR. EISNER: Any other comments or

2 questions on this issue? 

3 MR. LATTANZI: Just one other comment. 

4 I mean, the manufacturers not having rated these

5 systems with the larger coils, I mean, there's no

6 published data to instruct the market on how to

7 charge that system. I mean, it's going to be a

8 guess which is going to be problematic at best.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary for

10 the California IOUs. 

11 Matt went to answering my question and

12 that was going to be, well, if you put in a

13 replacement coil that may have a different

14 volume, how do you know how to adjust the charge.

15 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt. You

16 don't.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.

18 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with

19 Allied. 

20 There's two problems. One is what

21 metering device to select. And there's really --

22 without testing you really don't know.
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1 And then the charge quantity. It

2 really puts you where they're engineering it in

3 the field.

4 MR. GIBBONS: This is John with

5 Carrier. And to that point it's the metering

6 device within the metering device. They're

7 different sizes. 

8 And then the tube diameter is

9 something else that, I forget, Matt or Steve or

10 Harvey were -- back in 2006 when we introduced 13

11 SEER a lot of us changed tube diameters. So

12 that's a big problem.

13 MR. EISNER: Terry, you want to make

14 a point?

15 MR. SMALL: Yes. I want to just

16 follow up on what everybody else has said.

17 In the heat pump application in

18 particular it's critical. Heat pumps literally

19 are designed to be paired with certain indoor

20 coils. And they have an internal volume that's

21 pretty critical in terms of charging. You make

22 it -- you do a replacement that's too big or too
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1 small, you're going to have nuisance tripping. 

2 You'll have a disaster.

3 I don't think Steve Porter or any of

4 the contractors would ever recommend,

5 particularly on a heat pump, to ever go back with

6 anything but something similar that's already on

7 the older system.

8 So, I would say at the absolute

9 minimum anything having to do with heat pump

10 replacements should be excluded from the DOE

11 guidance. In other words, service coils for heat

12 pump replacements. Thank you.

13 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with

14 Earthjustice. And I'm just trying to understand

15 all the ramifications of this.

16 I'd just like to change the

17 hypothetical a little bit. And suppose that

18 there is this house out there that has an

19 evaporator coil that's located in an area where

20 there's -- expanding the size of that coil is

21 going to be very difficult.

22 If the homeowner gets a new condensing
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1 unit installed and -- or also get a new

2 evaporator coil, essentially a new system, but

3 it's going to be very expensive to put in a

4 proper matched system because of the difficulty

5 of that indoor coil installation it seems to me

6 there would be an incentive for a contractor to

7 come up with a lower bid by getting a replacement

8 evaporator coil part and making it work with that

9 system.

10 And what I'm hearing, the difficulties

11 of this suggest to me that that's an unlikely

12 scenario just because of, you know, he's not

13 going to know the right amount of charge, and

14 it's not going to work well, and he's just going

15 to get called back. So, is this not a danger

16 that others see?

17 MR. ROCKY: Bryan Rocky from Johnstone

18 Controls. What you just described is the

19 conundrum of dry ship units today in our

20 industry. 

21 And whether we like it or not, I would

22 much rather sell a new 14 SEER, high SEER
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1 efficient system that has better comfort and

2 better energy savings, but the vast majority of

3 contractors out there do not sell that. They

4 sell replacement parts because of the economic

5 requirements of the homeowner.

6 And in a condenser mode that's

7 currently a dry ship condenser, and you don't

8 change the other parts if you don't have to. 

9 Just as a comment, I had just sent

10 Alex a diagram from our source 1 documentation

11 that helps with the pictorial of this replacement

12 part. And I think he's going to pull it up to

13 show the breakout of our particular documentation

14 on service parts versus finished goods.

15 But yes, Tim, that's the issue with

16 the industry. If a consumer replaces a

17 condensing unit and I did this two weeks ago I

18 did not change out my evap coil. 

19 And my condenser went out. Actually,

20 my compressor went out on a 15-year-old unit. 

21 And I even didn't want to spend the money for a

22 lot of reasons on a new system. Partly because
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1 I'm waiting for a field trial unit from my

2 engineering group.

3 But the reality of it is it's what

4 customers do every day. It's what our

5 contractors do and are used to doing. They

6 replace parts. They sell up when they can, but

7 they sell what the homeowner wants.

8 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So, this is Charlie

9 with ACCA. 

10 I think Bryan referenced sort of

11 myself and Chuck earlier. And so what I want to

12 do is sort of say that I am in line with his

13 comments earlier and that ACCA -- and I see this

14 as a real problem for our folks. But I also have

15 a question while this is coming up. 

16 Harvey mentioned this is sort of a

17 South-only issue, but it seems to me this may not

18 be a South-only issue. It's a national issue. 

19 So this is the North too.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's everywhere in my

21 opinion.

22 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Okay. All right. 
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1 Thanks.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It becomes a bigger

3 issue in the South when you have different

4 standards, more stringent standards. But it's a

5 national issue. It is a today issue.

6 We're all in on this one, Harvey. One

7 big happy family.

8 MR. ROCKY: So, Ashley, just to

9 continue on this thought. I mean, we separated

10 out in this guidance the discussion of coils. 

11 And we get into the concern that I had

12 brought up, to me was are compressors next.

13 We have a certain set of compressors

14 that are required for 14 or 15 SEER product but

15 in the same situation it's a component. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. The answer is no

17 from the Department.

18 MR. ROCKY: Thank you.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I'm going to ask

20 a question. And this gets back to your point

21 about -- I can appreciate all the concerns that

22 people have brought up about the coil language
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1 and the guidance. And obviously, after getting

2 comments DOE will consider them.

3 One question I have is you say, you

4 know, the situation that Tim described, this is

5 the R22 issue, the issue that everyone likes to

6 talk about so much.

7 So, if you were the Department how

8 would you navigate that issue?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Karen looks like she

10 wants to say something.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or John sitting in the

12 back.

13 MR. EISNER: If only the court

14 reporter could describe what was just happening.

15 (Laughter)

16 MR. HURST: John Hurst for Lennox. 

17 All good points. I'd like to take

18 some time maybe with my industry compadres to

19 chew on it a little bit. But I do think it's

20 fair that we have the comment period. 

21 But I don't have a good answer for

22 you. It's not an easy topic. So I'd ask that we
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1 be able to take some time and talk about it to

2 come up with a consistent approach.

3 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan Rocky. So,

4 Alex has pulled up this document. Just, again,

5 to highlight this.

6 An FC series is a fully cased finished

7 goods evaporator coil. As Harvey already talked

8 about it's a cased coil. So you can see in this

9 case, and we'll scroll down in a minute, but

10 there is -- and this is a repair parts list that

11 we provide. And every manufacturer does

12 something very similar if not nearly in the same

13 format.

14 That FC coil has a number of

15 components as you can see which is mostly sheet

16 metal and the coil. 

17 And as you scroll down a little bit,

18 Alex -- that's far enough right there. So, an

19 FC18A4E is basically a 410A ton and a half

20 nominal capacity coil. You can see the FC number

21 is my finished goods number. And as you go down

22 item number 1 is the coil with drain pan, and
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1 it's an S1-373. And again, every manufacturer

2 does something very similar.

3 So if a contractor has an issue with

4 a failure in the field generally speaking they

5 will order that S1-37323, et cetera, et cetera,

6 et cetera, number because that's the part that

7 failed.

8 If they have an issue with the

9 distributor assembly they will order the S1-022

10 et cetera, item number 7. You only replace what

11 you need.

12 Now, if that coil assembly, the item

13 number 1, that S1 number is not available today

14 the contractor can replace that with a new FC18

15 and know he gets the equivalent performance for

16 that 13 or 14 SEER system.

17 If you go back into previous

18 generation products, a G2FD, for instance, is

19 exactly the same construction for a product that

20 was 10 SEER fully cased coil from 2004 for me. 

21 It has exactly the same parts breakdown. It has

22 a different coil assembly. 
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1 So I just wanted to highlight again

2 when I'm talking about the replacement part to me

3 the coil is no different than the front access

4 cover plate, or the drain pan itself which can be

5 replaced, or the TXV. 

6 If you buy the finished goods you get

7 all of those parts. You buy a replacement part,

8 you get just the part you need. So hopefully

9 that clarifies the situation from my viewpoint a

10 little bit.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so just to be

12 clear, the FC18A is always rated and certified

13 today. That's industry practice. 

14 MR. ROCKY: That is -- I believe so. 

15 A finished goods part.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Even if it's a 10 SEER

17 legacy replacement coil. Is it then -- so, for

18 example, if the FC18A was representative of a 10

19 SEER unit from 2000, would that have been re20 rated and re-certified as a case system -- as a

21 system for 13 SEER in 2006?

22 MR. ROCKY: So, Ashley, in my case,
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1 and again, all I can speak to is this. When we

2 changed from 10 to 13 SEER we changed

3 nomenclature of the finished goods parts as part

4 of that system. 

5 So the 10 SEER unit of the coil would

6 be a G2FD. The 13 SEER certified component is

7 the FC18. So I never rated a 13 SEER unit with

8 the previous generation.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

10 MR. ROCKY: We made a change in indoor

11 and outdoor at the same time.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: But could I pull up

13 today your 10 SEER equivalent spec sheet and

14 order line 1?

15 MR. ROCKY: Yes.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the FG part of it

17 is no longer -- is not certified. It's

18 discontinued.

19 MR. ROCKY: It's not -- that's

20 correct.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

22 MR. LATTANZI: Right. This is Matt
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1 with NORDYNE. Not only is -- it's discontinued

2 and not available. So we don't sell the finished

3 good 10 SEER coil. 

4 For us it's C3 and C4. I'll make it

5 easy. C3 was 10 SEER, C4 was 13. You can't buy

6 a C3B blah blah blah whatever. We don't sell it

7 anymore.

8 But you could buy the replacement

9 coil. In other words, his line 1.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: The C3 coil for lack

11 of a better term.

12 MR. LATTANZI: Yes.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just the coil.

14 MR. LATTANZI: The coil that was

15 inside the C3.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

17 MR. EISNER: Any other questions on

18 this issue? Comments?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I ask one more

20 question?

21 MR. EISNER: Sure.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry. And do you
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1 guys continue to offer them even past your

2 warranty span?

3 So, for example, if you have a 12-year

4 warranty as your max, if 2006 everything had to

5 change over would you still continue them after

6 the 12 years past 2006?

7 I realize that people will still have

8 them, but your warranty period is over.

9 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt with

10 NORDYNE. I think that's going to vary from part

11 to part and manufacturer to manufacturer. And

12 depending upon volumes and service parts and

13 warranty rates.

14 I mean, there's some components, for

15 example, I'm going to use an example of a furnace

16 and a heat exchanger where the warranty period is

17 10 years or 12 years. The furnace is

18 discontinued. 

19 At some point during the warranty

20 period it's not uncommon that the cost of that

21 replacement heat exchanger is more than the whole

22 appliance. So we would stop providing the
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1 warranty part and at that point provide the whole

2 appliance. 

3 So it's really all done on looking at

4 the financials and making the best economic

5 decision depending upon the part and the volume

6 you installed base. I think a lot of factors

7 come into that.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, my ask is as part

9 of your comments if you could speak a little more

10 detailed about that issue. Maybe not as an

11 industry, but if you wanted to provide details. 

12 I think that would be very helpful for the

13 Department to understand.

14 MR. EISNER: All right. Oh, I'm

15 sorry.

16 MR. ROY: This question is for Ashley. 

17 Aniruddh Roy with Goodman.

18 Ashley, since we were discussing this

19 topic would it be acceptable to produce 14 SEER

20 dry charge R22 split ACC pump products after

21 12/31? Based on the guidance that you've

22 provided.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think I need to

2 think about your question. 

3 But at the same time the latest

4 guidance we've put out is draft for comment. So

5 we would still have to go through the process of

6 considering all the comments and then deciding

7 whether.

8 So I don't think the Department is in

9 a position to be able to answer that question

10 yet.

11 MR. ROY: Okay. But assuming that the

12 guidance stays the way it is?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not going to

14 answer right now. Sorry.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay. No more questions. 

16 Any questions online? Comments? Okay, anybody

17 want to give a one-sentence summary to Doug of

18 what we accomplished in his absence?

19 MR. RAWALD: Luckily, the internet and

20 the phone world allowed me to listen in as I was

21 traveling in from the airport so I heard almost

22 everything.
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1 MR. EISNER: Okay. How did the first

2 class go?

3 MR. RAWALD: It was great. It was

4 great. 

5 I would note that Ray Ellis is not

6 here and we invited Keith to take his seat. So

7 he's a voting member of the Board today on Ray's

8 behalf.

9 MR. EISNER: All right. Now we should

10 go back to where we were last week, talking about

11 our five categories. Ask you how you'd like to

12 proceed. 

13 There were a number of homework

14 assignments given out. Do we want to start with

15 that, or do we just want to start going over the

16 issues that we didn't discuss and then go back

17 later to the homework assignments? Any thoughts?

18 MR. SACHS: Neil, I don't think we got

19 our one-sentence summary.

20 MR. EISNER: It appeared that no one

21 was ready to do that so I was going to assume

22 that they would just go up to him at the break
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1 and all give him their opinions.

2 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt Lattanzi

3 with NORDYNE.

4 I don't know if I can do this in one

5 sentence but I'll try to summarize it as best I

6 can.

7 I think we talked about and identified

8 an issue that we've talked about previously. So

9 we've risen it back up again.

10 And it sounds to me like we're leaving

11 it where we left it the last time, that we need

12 to go back and provide the Department with

13 comments to further illustrate and explain the

14 problem.

15 Does that make sense?

16 MR. RAWALD: It does, Matt. This is

17 Doug. And I think also what we may have gotten

18 from Ashley's comments is it's not only relevant

19 for the regional standards, this is relevant writ

20 large for how we deal with this today I think is

21 what she said. So we want to make sure we're all

22 on the same page for how we refer to these
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1 things.

2 And I think that she's very careful to

3 say we're really discussing -- this really only

4 relates to the coil, right? The indoor coil,

5 that's the issue.

6 So I know that Bryan had a concern

7 about other parts that are more at a subcomponent

8 level like the compressor. But that's not what

9 we're talking about here. 

10 We view the coil to be treated

11 coequally as we treat the condensing unit. That

12 seems to be the question or the bone of

13 contention as I understand it.

14 MR. EISNER: Karen? We need to get

15 the body language in the document. Okay.

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I'd

17 just like to say I think this morning's --

18 MR. SMALL: Doug, this is Terry Small. 

19 I'm happy you joined the meeting.

20 I wonder if the coil issue shouldn't

21 be treated in a separate guidance. Because after

22 all it is a current issue. You know, it's an
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1 issue right now. And I'm wondering if maybe the

2 Department, it would be better treated, a

3 replacement service coil situation separately in

4 its own guidance. What do you think about that?

5 MR. RAWALD: Terry, this is Doug and

6 that would be great comment to the draft

7 guidance, whether you feel we should split it

8 from the current guidance.

9 The current guidance as drafted is

10 meant to both deal with current situations and

11 future situations. 

12 It's not only designed around the

13 regional standards. It's meant to be a more writ

14 large kind of statement or clarification of all

15 the things that we've said in the past about

16 these particular pieces of equipment. So I want

17 folks to understand that.

18 But I think if you feel there's a need

19 for separating it out that's something that we

20 can consider and certainly worth your comment to

21 the guidance as drafted.

22 MR. EISNER: Doug, the comment period
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1 closes when? The 15th? Nineteenth. I believe

2 our next meeting is after that time. 

3 How fast does the Department usually

4 work? Are they likely to have a new guidance

5 document out before then, or is that something

6 they might want to discuss at the next meeting

7 before they make it final?

8 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. So it

9 varies depending on what we get in response.

10 So if we got 25 responses saying the

11 guidance was great as drafted, which I don't

12 think we will at this point, then it would

13 probably be easy to make it final the next day.

14 So, it's just because we're going to

15 be likely getting some seemingly very

16 intelligent, very well thought out but dissenting

17 comments that will require us to go back and

18 analyze and think about it.

19 So, I can say it probably won't be

20 finalized before our next meeting, but I will

21 give an update at the next meeting where we are

22 with it. That's the best I can promise at the
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1 moment.

2 MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen with

3 Rheem. Let me just ask a question. 

4 The guidance that was published was on

5 how you rate certified products, correct?

6 MR. RAWALD: That is correct.

7 MS. MEYERS: Okay. I think that

8 should clear up a lot of questions around the

9 table.

10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I

11 realize this was the second round with this

12 conversation, but I for one learned an awful lot

13 and I don't think I'm the only one in the room

14 who did.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay, anything else? All

16 right. 

17 Again, I ask do we want to go over the

18 homework assignments first or should we just

19 continue with the list and then go back and start

20 over?

21 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I'm going

22 to put my foot in the water at least and let
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1 folks know what I have accomplished at the

2 request of the folks here.

3 And I've had several conversations. 

4 Obviously I haven't had a whole lot of time in

5 the interim and a holiday weekend which in the

6 federal government means it was a three-day

7 weekend.

8 But what I can tell you is I did ask

9 some questions.

10 Now, Jon Melchi from HARDI asked a

11 good question about whether we could bring in

12 somebody to talk about the light bulb campaign

13 for some lessons learned for what we do here.

14 What I have heard from the program we

15 work with who controls the money is that the

16 scope of this compared to the light bulb campaign

17 is very different. 

18 So, the light bulbs involved a lot

19 more energy savings and a lot more need for

20 publicity. So I don't know if there will be

21 Departmental money available for something of the

22 scope of what we saw in the light bulb campaign.
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1 That being said, I'm still having

2 people look into bringing someone in to talk

3 about that.

4 What it seems like is something of a

5 smaller scale, like a trifold, or a leaflet, or a

6 pamphlet, or a posting type thing for the

7 contractors and the distributors.

8 It's certainly well within the bounds

9 of what the Department is willing to consider. 

10 I'm just not sure that commercials, or other

11 large-scale things, or grants as we discussed to

12 advocates for something I can actually persuade

13 the money-spenders to spend.

14 But I will continue to ask the

15 question. But I think that we're looking at a

16 more limited pool of resources at the moment. 

17 So, Jon, do you have a comment to that?

18 MR. MELCHI: Yes. Doug, this is Jon

19 Melchi with HARDI.

20 I talked with our members and they

21 particularly thought posters and trifolds would

22 be extremely helpful for them inside the store to
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1 be able to have and to distribute. 

2 So, understanding the Department's

3 limitations, those two things would be a priority

4 from distributors and we would be committed to

5 helping pass that information out.

6 MR. RAWALD: I appreciate that, Jon. 

7 I also stressed from the contractor point of view

8 the value of having a trifold that they could

9 pass across the counter to a customer who was

10 saying I'm going to buy a 13 SEER from somebody

11 who's cheaper than you, so they could explain

12 well, that's why you shouldn't do it. So that

13 would be a helpful item for them.

14 And Charlie is nodding his head that

15 yes, he agrees that would be helpful.

16 So, those are things that I'm at least

17 pushing them to hopefully be able to open the

18 coffers for. So that's what we're working there.

19 I did note that -- I did a little

20 research myself and I saw there is a lot of

21 information on the internet about what

22 information folks gather. 
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1 And so I know the advocates were

2 really interested in where we can get information

3 about what's going where.

4 And it seems like there's at least

5 some information both at the distributor level

6 and also at the manufacturer level. I know the

7 AHRI has come forward and talked about how they

8 can provide us at least some shipment data and

9 where it's going.

10 But it seemed like there might be

11 something that HARDI could be able to provide us,

12 or another industry group of some sort on the

13 distributor level.

14 I don't know if, Steve or Jon, you

15 guys have any information on that. If there's

16 any more resources possible to kind of give the

17 advocates what they're looking for as far as kind

18 of a tracking of where shipments are going at a

19 more aggregate level.

20 MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with HARDI. 

21 We have started a unitary report through HARDI.

22 However, there is a restriction on
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1 that. At least for now it's a voluntary

2 reporting system for our distributor members. 

3 And the policy right now is to not make that data

4 available to government entities. So we would

5 have to change that, obviously. And I can't

6 guarantee that our board of directors would

7 approve such a change.

8 We've had an instance where we've had

9 to deal with a certain state and we're not able

10 to provide them that data directly.

11 MR. RAWALD: Can you speak to what the

12 fears are of government entities? I mean, is it

13 that we'll use the information to somehow get at

14 folks so they won't provide real information? Is

15 that the concern?

16 MR. MELCHI: You know, I didn't set

17 the policy so I would have to double-check and

18 speak with that.

19 But I think part of the concern is

20 that it's a new report and we're just trying to

21 build up a sample size if you will. So I don't

22 know that I would necessarily classify it as
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1 being statistically significant enough to be a

2 part of a federal enforcement scheme.

3 Additionally, our members are

4 extremely privacy aware. And it's been

5 challenging enough to get our members to provide

6 information to us for their own personal uses. 

7 So if we disclose that we were going

8 to provide it to the government my own theory,

9 and I don't know if Steve could elaborate maybe a

10 little more, that a lot of our members would just

11 cease reporting.

12 MR. RAWALD: I see Steve is nodding

13 his head that he agrees with that.

14 So, once again, understand that HARDI,

15 you know, there are folks that aren't in HARDI

16 that are in the distributor world as well. 

17 So that data has to be taken with a

18 grain of salt I think from all of us, right? And

19 Steve nodding his head in agreement there. So I

20 understand the limitations.

21 I think this is more of an ask from

22 the advocates because they were looking at it a
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1 lot last week. And so maybe they could meet with

2 you guys offline and talk a little bit more about

3 different ways they could use this data. I'm

4 trying to think of ways that we could use it. 

5 But to me the most important thing

6 from a record retention point of view, and I've

7 confirmed this with the folks that I work with,

8 is really the ability to track down individual

9 cases.

10 You know, tracking these big picture

11 numbers are interesting and helpful for us to

12 target proactive investigations, but in a

13 realistic practical kind of sense of things we're

14 going to be more in a reactive mode here. 

15 We're going to be looking for people

16 that make complaints and how to follow up on

17 that. And so from a record retention point of

18 view and from what data I'd want reported if

19 requested it would be things that would help me

20 to follow up on individual cases and investigate

21 those individual complaints of non-compliance. 

22 So I think that this data would be
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1 helpful from the big picture if I had a lot of

2 resources, and it would be helpful with the

3 advocates because then they could call me and

4 say, Doug, you're looking in the wrong place. 

5 But my urgent need would be kind of

6 the local records, the kind of detailed, hey,

7 this is what this individual -- this is where

8 this one unit went to and so we can confirm that

9 wasn't in the wrong place at the wrong time. So

10 that's the kind of stuff I'm spinning around in

11 my head.

12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other thoughts? 

13 Other comments? Questions? 

14 All right, well let's go back to the

15 list. We've got the list up I guess. According

16 to my notes I think the last thing we were

17 talking about was record retention for a

18 specified time period. We had just started

19 talking about that.

20 And one of the questions that came up,

21 I don't know if you've had a chance to check, was

22 on the IRS and what they require.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this is Doug. 

2 And so I haven't been able to run down exactly

3 what the bit-by-bit IRS requirements are.

4 So, what I've discussed with our

5 lawyers is that if we mirror the IRS in

6 collection, and obviously the burden inquiry will

7 be less and the PRA analysis will be even easier

8 because it will be things people are already

9 required to keep. So that's kind of where it

10 comes from. So I want to look at that some more.

11 I definitely think that the 3- to 5-

12 year time frame are the outside limitations of

13 what we want.

14 I can't imagine that less than three

15 years would be useful, but I definitely want to

16 make sure we talk more about that. So I guess I

17 want to keep that out there. 

18 So I know that three years is what

19 folks are saying the IRS requires. I want to

20 take a look at that as well and get back to you

21 guys on that.

22 MR. EISNER: And are these records
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1 that are kept for the IRS kept in a way that you

2 could simply go in and look at those records when

3 you wanted to? Or would they have to be --

4 MR. RAWALD: So, the point is that if

5 somebody's -- this is Doug -- if somebody's

6 already keeping the record because they have to

7 produce it if audited then we're not asking them

8 to do anything more than they're already doing. 

9 So they would already have that in

10 their file cabinet or in their computer program. 

11 So if we said produce this, okay, I already have

12 that for in case I was audited by the IRS so it's

13 no big deal for me to give it to DOE. 

14 So, I think if it was stuff that was

15 provided to the IRS I would have very little

16 ability to get it because the IRS treats this

17 stuff very, very, very, very close hold for

18 obviously good reasons. 

19 And so that's one area of government

20 where we don't share things. And I think people

21 should feel secure about that, that their data is

22 not thrown around aimlessly.
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1 So, it would be very hard if it was

2 stuff produced to the IRS for then me to get it

3 through the IRS. It would be easier and probably

4 more practical, and I think the contractor and

5 the distributors would feel more comfortable if I

6 was going to them directly and they knew who was

7 asking for it and where it was being sent,

8 probably.

9 So I think production is different

10 from retention. But from a retainability point

11 of view if we're asking people to retain things

12 that the IRS is already asking that should be

13 pretty non-burdensome I would think.

14 MR. EISNER: Any comments on that? 

15 Harvey?

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I do not

17 claim in this to speak for other advocates,

18 utilities, or anyone else.

19 But having thought a little bit about

20 it I certainly find myself resonating with two

21 things that Doug said. 

22 One of them is that enforcement is
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1 likely to be reactive. And the other is that

2 this does put -- this is not going to be possible

3 without a real records retention capability.

4 And I say that particularly because I

5 was quite impressed by Steve Porter's

6 differentiation of three classes of contractors. 

7 The branded, the long-term reputable but not

8 particularly brand loyal, and the over-the9 counters.

10 And I think all of us are primarily

11 interested in making sure that the low-volume

12 over-the-counters, otherwise known as the

13 magnetic sign on the pickup truck people are

14 traceable because I think that's where some of us

15 feel the risks are concentrated. 

16 I don't know what data that requires,

17 but I can't see us being able to have an

18 effective enforcement regime without having the

19 ability to recover serial number-level detail on

20 sales. So, I hope somebody is clever enough to

21 find something that would be less onerous.

22 MR. EISNER: Gary?
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Harvey, this is Gary

2 Fernstrom for the California IOUs.

3 I think there's two ways we might be

4 able to recover serial-level detail the way you

5 describe it.

6 One is the onerous and burdensome as

7 some have described it method of reporting where

8 all this stuff goes.

9 The other is some sort of a selective

10 field audit of places where we believe experience

11 a high level of replacement activity. 

12 I suggest that either might be

13 sufficient for us to have a database of locations

14 that could be inspected for compliance.

15 What comes to my mind is a recent

16 activity that PG&E undertook to find out where

17 swimming pool pumps had been replaced in the past

18 five years to see how efficient pools were

19 operating and to determine whether or not the

20 replacement pumps and motors were compliant with

21 the CEC requirements.

22 What PG&E did is it commissioned a
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1 robo-calling firm to call customers completely at

2 random, ask them if they have a swimming pool and

3 secondly whether or not they've had their pump or

4 motor replaced in the past five years.

5 Based on that a sample of customers

6 who met that requirement and would be willing to

7 have a representative come out and look at their

8 system was established.

9 And that I would submit would identify

10 locations which are compliant and not compliant

11 with the regulations.

12 The same thing I think could be done

13 at relatively low cost for air conditioning

14 condensing unit replacement. The cost of setting

15 up the telephone survey was in the order of

16 $5,000. And I believe the cost per call was in

17 the range of 50 cents. So, for a small amount of

18 money we were able to identify a large sample of

19 sites where customers were willing to have a

20 representative take a look at what was being

21 done.

22 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And Gary,
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1 it's an idea I never have thought of. So, I

2 think it's a very interesting one. And certainly

3 this is a way to tackle a proactive type of

4 investigation that I haven't thought of before

5 and I'll bring up to folks that I work with.

6 I don't know if that would need to be

7 regulated. I don't know if there would need to

8 be an actual rulemaking saying we're going to do

9 that. It just seems like a good idea, a good way

10 for us to spend money possibly.

11 So, but I'll talk to those folks

12 upstairs and see what they think of that.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, it seems to me

14 that what we're trying to do here can be

15 proactive, reactive, or some combination of the

16 two. And having confidence that the federal

17 government, DOE, or the states or someone would

18 follow up on a random basis like that would

19 certainly give the efficiency advocates some

20 confidence that there would be a mechanism to

21 cause people to think twice before they cheat for

22 fear that in some follow-up random audit they
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1 would get caught.

2 MR. EISNER: Gary, are there any

3 reports on this program and how effective it was

4 and what it cost that could be made available?

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, there's no

6 report, but I have all the details. So I can

7 certainly share that.

8 And by the way, I promised previously

9 to provide this group with some information about

10 the effectiveness of California's compliance with

11 its regulations. And I've gotten clearance to

12 release that. So before we're done with this

13 two-day session I'll provide that to the group. 

14 And I'll work on getting additional details about

15 how this robo-call effort worked for us.

16 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd at

17 AHRI. I think it is important I think as Doug

18 sort of alluded to that we keep the scope in mind

19 though. 

20 I mean, this enforcement rule is going

21 to be talking about the obligations of the

22 effective parties and it's going to be talking
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1 about the authority of DOE. But it's not going

2 to be articulating the investigative techniques

3 that DOE is going to use.

4 They already have that and they're not

5 going to codify that in a regulation. They're

6 going to use that flexibility. 

7 So I think we should stay focused on

8 kind of those two key aspects which are what are

9 the obligations of these parties.

10 So when we talk about records

11 retention, you know, the things we've been

12 talking about what they need and then what DOE's

13 authority is.

14 But, in terms of particular

15 investigative strategies I don't think that's

16 something that's going to be in the rule.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary

18 again. I don't disagree. However, for the

19 efficiency advocates if we had some confidence

20 that DOE was going to utilize some sort of

21 follow-up investigative technique that would

22 probably lessen our concern about how proactive
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1 the regulations would need to be.

2 MR. RAWALD: No, this is Doug. I hear

3 that. I mean, you guys are standing on the

4 outside and you want to know what's happening on

5 the playing field and be able to see that you can

6 understand that things are actually taking place. 

7 I get that, I do. And I'll pass that on to the

8 folks that make decisions on this stuff because I

9 think it's important.

10 So, I think also for our messaging

11 campaign, it seems like that kind of technique

12 would be to have a deterrent value of some way. 

13 Like if folks know they're going to be audited.

14 It goes back to that point that Tim

15 brought up last week of who was going to be

16 actually finding out about these things. And

17 this adds another category of someone that's

18 likely to find out about it. 

19 And so that just adds another reason

20 why the contractor is more likely to fall in line

21 if they're otherwise thinking it might be worth

22 the cut they're going to get to cheat. So I
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1 think it's just a question of the terms that

2 might be added to this.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary

4 again. When I think I previously alluded to some

5 approach like this one of the concerns raised was

6 that anybody who was aware that they had a non7 qualifying unit would certainly not agree to any

8 kind of field survey.

9 And while I believe that's true, I

10 think there would be enough situations where

11 homeowners would not necessarily be aware that it

12 would still act as a deterrent to contractors

13 that might want to take the low road.

14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I mean,

15 I appreciate the concerns. And I would regard

16 Gary's comments as sort of a proof of concept

17 that it can be -- the reactive approach can be

18 done and justify it that way.

19 I'd also like to bring up a situation

20 that Elizabeth Noll helped lead several years ago

21 of thinking about ways that we might use a pre22 approved waiver process for the hopefully rare
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1 cases in which non-condensing furnaces would be a

2 better option than condensing furnaces in the

3 North. And that's been set aside now.

4 But what I wanted to bring out was

5 that I felt that that caucus which included a

6 number of the people who are here and all of the

7 interest came to feel that records submission,

8 routine records submission by industry people was

9 probably not required, but records retention

10 would be required.

11 And to me there's an enormous -- I

12 hypothesize an enormous difference between the

13 requirement that you be auditable and the

14 requirement that you send yet another set of

15 reports to DOE every six months or a year or

16 whatever it is. 

17 So my question really is am I ringing

18 the bell true that there is that difference and

19 that a record retention auditability requirement

20 is much less onerous than a record submission

21 requirement. Thank you.

22 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter. 
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1 Yes, that would be correct. That's obviously --

2 we do that today. I mean, we've had requests

3 from the DOE before to provide information which

4 we always do.

5 I don't know if it was me that said

6 that but that's pretty close to correct about the

7 contractors. I think it was my friend from

8 Lennox.

9 And I want to make clear that because

10 -- that a small contractor is not necessarily a

11 bad contractor. 

12 I also want to make clear that if you

13 have a magnetic sign you're not a bad contractor.

14 (Laughter)

15 MR. PORTER: It's also -- I think

16 Chuck brought this up, Chuck White brought this

17 up before, that the homeowner is put in this --

18 the contractor is put in the position of meeting

19 the homeowner's financial ability. What can I

20 afford to get my air conditioner and my heat for

21 my family, and how can you do it the cheapest way

22 because I have no money.
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1 And so a lot of times those selections

2 are made, Gary, you know, not because the

3 contractor is offering because what you're going

4 to find isn't necessarily the homeowner. 

5 He's the doctor. He's giving you

6 options. And hopefully he's not giving an

7 illegal option and that he can hand some

8 literature and say you can't really do that. 

9 Yes, it would be cheaper. I know you saw it

10 online and it was cheaper online. But the unit

11 you're looking at is not qualified. And

12 hopefully he has something to be able to provide

13 that consumer for that. But typically it's that.

14 That's why this whole thing with the

15 change in SEER ratings has driven to the lowest

16 common denominator and people now are making

17 really bad choices on their heating and cooling

18 options because they simply can't afford to make

19 the move up.

20 I mean, you can look at the room air

21 conditioner sales increases over this period of

22 time. You can look at a lot of other data that's
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1 out there that I encourage other people to look

2 at. But people are just making really bad

3 decisions now because of the cost delta.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, Steve, this is

5 Gary. I hear the argument over and over again

6 that low-income individuals and utility customers

7 can't afford equipment that meets the federal

8 standards.

9 And what we have here is really a

10 football that gets kicked back and forth between

11 the contractors, customers and the initial cost

12 of these appliances and what they pay from month

13 to month in their utility bill.

14 So, you have a choice. If you can't

15 afford it and you buy the very cheapest piece of

16 equipment on the market that may not be

17 consistent with what we deem to be cost-effective

18 efficiency standards then you wind up with a high

19 utility bill.

20 Conversely, if your contractor can

21 only sell you compliant equipment and that's the

22 minimum hurdle that has to be overcome somehow
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1 you either do without the convenience or you

2 scrape up the money to buy it, and you have a

3 lower monthly utility cost. 

4 So, I don't think it's quite as simple

5 as it seems on the surface that low-income

6 customers can't afford efficient appliances. 

7 In some cases they're better off to

8 maybe be forced to spend a little more to buy a

9 cost-effective efficient appliance and reap the

10 benefits in a lower utility cost, and maybe not

11 be as angry at the utility as they might be at

12 the contractor that is charging them for a code13 compliant installation.

14 MR. PORTER: Well, this is Steve

15 Porter, Johnstone Supply. 

16 So, you're leaving out a little issue

17 of credit there and whether they qualify for

18 credit or don't qualify, or they can make that

19 cost at that time.

20 It's a lot more about cash flow for

21 most Americans than it is about over the next 20

22 years if I buy this one I'll get my money back. 
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1 That's kind of a big miss.

2 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

3 ACCA. I want to go back to what Harvey was

4 talking about and I think Steve answered from his

5 end.

6 From the contractor side on the

7 record-keeping I think one of my homework

8 assignments was to look at what is retained in

9 terms of our members. What are they doing

10 essentially voluntarily for their own business

11 purposes.

12 And at this point I want to make the

13 distinction between record-keeping and

14 information disclosure. Those are two very

15 different things.

16 Going back to the furnace waiver, I

17 believe the furnace waiver had information

18 disclosure as part of it. I think that in that

19 case the contractor was to -- I'm looking at

20 Elizabeth -- I think the contractor was to

21 provide documentation to the DOE upon making or

22 utilizing the waiver. It wasn't just to retain
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1 records. I think that they had to -- I'll look

2 to Elizabeth on the answer to that. Yes. 

3 Okay, so in that case it was an

4 information disclosure. So there was a turning

5 over of records to another entity versus just

6 maintaining them as we all do. 

7 We maintain information. If you're

8 itemizing for your IRS you're going to keep

9 receipts or whatever you get from charitable

10 contributions. You donated some things to

11 Goodwill, things like that. And you voluntarily

12 keep those things.

13 I think, and I've talked to a number

14 of our folks since we last met. There seems to

15 be I think along the lines that Steve had

16 outlined with the three types of three tiers of

17 contractors. 

18 Contractors who maintain very, very

19 good records and have exhaustive records and are

20 searchable. 

21 But then at that bottom end where the

22 contractor may have a magnetic sign but he's a
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1 very good contractor. He may have less --

2 searchable is the best way to put it -- records.

3 I'm working with our folks to look at

4 that, what may be workable in terms of a -- I

5 guess what I would call -- I think it would be a

6 required record-keeping. But it would

7 essentially be in the event that it was a

8 reactive or potential audit. So, that's my

9 report on my homework assignment as answering

10 Harvey's question.

11 MR. SACHS: Charlie, this is Harvey. 

12 And thank you very much for correcting my error. 

13 I'm not batting real good today. The furnace

14 waiver would have required reporting back.

15 My personal feeling is that in this

16 instance the record retention which presumptively

17 would be quasi-required would be necessary. I

18 have not been convinced, and again, this is my

19 personal feeling, that submitting DOE reports

20 would be required, would be necessary. 

21 So, I can imagine some people in my

22 community like my boss having divergent feelings. 
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1 So I look forward to getting the evidence so we

2 can do with that.

3 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And so I

4 want to speak from what we currently do as I

5 always try to do.

6 And so we currently require records to

7 be retained. And we require submission of very

8 limited information. 

9 And that's proven to be very effective

10 as far as us not being overwhelmed by a lot of

11 useless information, people not feeling like

12 they're giving up too much information to the

13 government who they may or may not trust what's

14 going to happen with that information, and our

15 ability to then follow up on that information.

16 We don't dictate to people how they

17 maintain their records as long as they can

18 respond in a timely fashion to the request.

19 So, if there's some sort of operation

20 that is due to its lack of sophistication unable

21 to respond within a timely manner they can come

22 to us and explain, hey listen, this is the
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1 problem I'm facing, can you work with us here.

2 And I'm a pretty reasonable guy. So

3 I think that we work with folks. 

4 So, I think that that would be an

5 understanding, that there would be some ability

6 to work with people to give them time and the

7 ability to produce what's required, what we're

8 going to be asking them I think.

9 And this seems to be the course that

10 we're headed. I think it's pretty clear we're

11 going to have to do this. Some minimum level of

12 maintaining that information that we're going to

13 ask for, if necessary, later on down the road.

14 So I think that's kind of where I'm

15 at. So I think that retention is important. 

16 Producing is to me is much less important, and in

17 fact probably negative because it causes people

18 to be really retrenched in what they're going to

19 give you, and it also causes a lot of paperwork

20 burden on my part that I don't really need to be

21 doing.

22 So I think there's a lot of reasons
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1 for why retention is what's really the focus

2 here.

3 And I think that we're -- I think we

4 made a lot of headway here. I think that people

5 are pretty understanding of where we are and what

6 we're producing.

7 I think what might be constructive is

8 for us to kind of, maybe for Charlie and Steve

9 and I to sit down together and maybe come up with

10 an idea of, okay, what can we put down on paper

11 as being the things that we could put in actual

12 text of a regulation of some sort of what we

13 could say people should have at a minimum.

14 And to kind of discuss how descriptive

15 we could be or not descriptive. That might be a

16 constructive kind of way to bring that back to

17 the next meeting in late September for us to put

18 forward to the group and say here's what we think

19 we can do. And maybe folks can look at that. So

20 that might be a good way to go forward if you

21 guys are interested in us doing that.

22 And I'd like Chuck too. I didn't mean
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1 to leave you out, Chuck. You're just not sitting

2 next to me.

3 MR. WHITE: That's all right. This is

4 Chuck White. 

5 Several things. Record-keeping, the

6 contractor's the bulk of them. I'm sure there's

7 some out there that are not. But the vast

8 majority have records. 

9 Whether they're searchable or not, you

10 know, maybe going through a wholesaler's file for

11 the year and looking for everything that has a

12 condensing unit on it. 

13 It may be scouring all your jobs and

14 for a small guy that may not be very many. For a

15 larger contractor that could be a whole bunch.

16 But if record-keeping could get the

17 bottom feeder in our industry out of the supply

18 house and out of our work chain I think we'd all

19 love that. But that's not going to happen. 

20 And we talk about magnets on the

21 truck. Just because you wear a spiffy shiny

22 uniform doesn't mean you're a good guy either. 
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1 (Laughter)

2 MR. WHITE: It's been mulling over in

3 my head, and I'm sorry with the holiday and

4 trying to contact several thousand members to get

5 a feel on their records and databases, but I did

6 talk to a few.

7 We're -- it keeps coming to me that we

8 have a micro issue and a macro issue.

9 And the micro issue is we have a

10 contractor that did one or two or three, or

11 several contractors that kind of is their routine

12 practice and they skirt the law. 

13 They're going to be hard to find

14 because we're looking for 1 out of 100, or 1 out

15 of 1,000, or maybe it's 1 out of 10. I doubt

16 that. 

17 Especially once the rules come into

18 play, once the sell-through period is pretty well

19 exhausted in most of those regions the product is

20 going to be compliant that's available to them. 

21 The border areas are going to be more of an

22 issue. 
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1 But as it goes along it's going to

2 increase its compliance pretty quickly. 

3 But if we do get the sense that we've

4 got a lot of micro issues then I think we're

5 starting to think we're more in the macro issue. 

6 And really, to me the way you get

7 macro issues is it's up the supply chain. So, we

8 have a wholesaler doing something, we have some

9 big internet provider doing something. We have

10 some way that we're getting significant product

11 where it shouldn't be. And yes, the contractor

12 shouldn't be doing it, but how did he get it in

13 the first place.

14 And I've struggled with how do you try

15 to handle all this. But trying to find one guy

16 doing one system, that's probably going to be

17 your whistleblower, somebody found it,

18 complained.

19 Your next level up is maybe a random

20 check of an 1,000-apartment facility being built,

21 are all these products correct. 

22 And how you go upstream to whether a
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1 manufacturer shipped to the wrong place, or you

2 know, wholesalers transferring internally. I'm

3 not trying to accuse anybody, I'm just saying

4 this is kind of the micro/macro distinction to

5 me. 

6 And they're really intertwined, but I

7 think there's going to be a couple of different

8 approaches going to have to happen to look at

9 those and consider those.

10 MR. EISNER: Other comments?

11 MR. RAWALD: So, Chuck brought up an

12 area that we've brought up a lot of times and we

13 don't have fully engaged at this point is the

14 internet sales.

15 And so obviously there's record

16 retention. I mean, I don't know how we'd put it

17 on the folks who are involved in internet sales.

18 My question really is how do the

19 products end up on the internet in the first

20 place. Like where in the supply chain is it

21 getting to them? Because it has to be leaving

22 the manufacturer at some point, right? So how
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1 does it get from the manufacturer to the person

2 on the internet that's selling it? And is there

3 a way for us to intercede in that chain in some

4 way? I mean what is that chain? Because I don't

5 have a conception or understanding of that.

6 MR. HURST: John Hurst with Lennox. 

7 Doug, you have a good question. I presume that

8 most of it happens as a manufacturer sells to a

9 dealer. 

10 A dealer then puts equipment on the

11 internet that they could presumably buy maybe

12 cheaper than somebody up and down the street.

13 There's also the ability for a dealer

14 to go, or a licensed contractor to go to a

15 distribution house, maybe buy products that are

16 on sale or in bulk and post that equipment for

17 sale on the internet.

18 One of the commitments that we're

19 looking at doing is maybe taking a harder stance

20 on those dealers within our dealer community that

21 are pursuing this practice.

22 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. When
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1 you say "we", you mean Lennox or the

2 manufacturers?

3 MR. HURST: My company.

4 MS. NOLL: Okay.

5 MR. HURST: I won't speak for anybody

6 else, but I think you'll get general agreement

7 from the manufacturers also.

8 MR. ROCKY: So, this is Bryan from

9 Johnson Controls. 

10 Contractors selling over the internet

11 today buy products just like any contractor does

12 for install in their own region. They buy it

13 from a manufacturer. They buy it from a

14 distribution house.

15 What they do with that is open

16 commerce. We don't like it. We have statements

17 about not honoring warranties. But the end

18 result is we're still going to support our

19 homeowners that buy product from contractors that

20 have a legitimate right to sell it.

21 The issue is going to be how do you

22 determine as a manufacturer, which we've all
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1 struggled with as an organization or the

2 Department with someone who is technically

3 legally doing what they're allowed. 

4 And just because it's internet sales

5 from somebody in Minnesota doesn't mean that

6 they're not selling most of their units today to

7 someone in Wisconsin or North Dakota or South

8 Dakota.

9 What we want to try to prevent is the

10 selling of those same units into Virginia or

11 Alabama. 

12 So, whatever we come up with for

13 contractors from an information standpoint, an

14 awareness standpoint or enforcement practices

15 actually falls exactly in the same situation for

16 someone selling over the internet as they do

17 going door to door trying to drum up business, or

18 getting quotes from people in their neighborhood. 

19 It's still a contractor. They're the

20 ones selling the equipment. They may not be the

21 ones installing the equipment if they're selling

22 it over the internet.
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1 MR. EISNER: Doug, how do you deal

2 with issues today about products that can be

3 readily sold on the internet like light bulbs

4 that don't meet your standards?

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So the question

6 is different because our standards are

7 manufacturer-based. 

8 So, we can purchase them over the

9 internet, but the manufacturer is ultimately

10 responsible for insuring their compliance. So we

11 go back to the manufacturer always.

12 So the question here is we have an

13 installation standard. So the folks can be

14 getting around all the things we're going to put

15 in place if they're doing the internet sales is

16 what folks are talking about.

17 So I want to make sure that if we have

18 a record retention scheme that we come up with, I

19 can then go to an internet provider and say, hey,

20 John Smith from the internet, you've got to

21 provide me those records. And they can't say no,

22 no, I'm not covered by this. I want to make sure
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1 that we have that person in the group so I can

2 make sure I can single him out and work on him.

3 And frankly, from an investigative

4 point of view it's probably easier for me to have

5 somebody sit in an office all day and surf

6 websites and find people selling than it would be

7 to do a lot of other things that we talked about.

8 So, I think I could aggressively do

9 that if I have the ability and understand that. 

10 People say, yes, the only scheme we

11 set up, we're going to say apply to those folks

12 who are selling on the internet.

13 MR. EISNER: What about foreign

14 manufacturers? Foreign sellers but the purchaser

15 is in the U.S.?

16 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, importers are

17 manufacturers. So there would be an obligation

18 if you're -- whoever is importing is going to

19 bear the responsibility of that importation. So,

20 and then the installation is going to have to be.

21 So I haven't really wrapped my head

22 around the scenario you're asking, but I think
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1 it's -- like, what I'm getting at is I want to

2 make sure that we design in a way that I can

3 enforce it in a way to help thwart what I think

4 is a way of skirting around here which everyone

5 seems to be also not happy with as well, the kind

6 of situation we have here. 

7 And John Hurst had a point back there. 

8 And then Karen had a point before everyone I

9 think.

10 MR. HURST: Yes, Doug, John Hurst with

11 Lennox. Agree with everything you just said. 

12 Those internet resellers have to

13 either be defined as a contractor, dealer, or a

14 distributor. And we would hope that however we

15 define this they would not be exempted from

16 compliance. But agree with everything you just

17 said.

18 The other thing I'd like to point out

19 is I don't have numbers on this but I know at

20 least within our company we believe that internet

21 reselling is a very, very, very small percentage

22 of the sales from our company.
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1 I know it happens because I go out to

2 eBay and I see our equipment out there, but I

3 don't think it's pervasive.

4 MR. RAWALD: So John, this is Doug. 

5 So perhaps folks can go back and look at the

6 definition we circulated after our meeting last

7 time and see if people have any ideas or feel

8 like that that would cover the internet sales,

9 and if not, ways to work on that. Because I want

10 to get that kind of finalized.

11 Karen has been waiting very patiently.

12 MS. MEYERS: So I think from my

13 company's perspective is when we write the

14 enforcement rule I would like internet resellers

15 specifically called out. Because they may be a

16 manufacturer/distributor, or dealer/contractor,

17 or they may not. They may be somebody who buys a

18 bunch of obsolete equipment and then tries to

19 sell it. 

20 So as we're writing records retention

21 rules for everyone I would like that to almost be

22 a separate category. It could be one of these,
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1 or it could be a completely different entity. 

2 And so from my company's perspective we would

3 like them held to the same standards as the

4 traditional supply chain is.

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this is Doug. 

6 So my concern with writing something tailored to

7 internet providers would be that they could then

8 evolve to get around what I'm tailoring it to.

9 So I want to make sure that whatever

10 we do takes into consideration what could be done

11 to get around what I've put out there.

12 So that's why I want to -- so I'm up

13 for either idea. Either defining them separately

14 and including them in the bucket, or for defining

15 the terms "dealer" and "contractor" and

16 "distributors" broadly enough so they would

17 include these guys in whichever way we agree is

18 more effective.

19 So I'm up for both approaches. I just

20 don't know which one's the best. So I take that

21 idea with at least something to think about,

22 Karen.
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1 MR. EISNER: Why don't we take a 10-

2 minute break now, come back at 5 of.

3 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

4 went off the record at 10:43 a.m. and resumed at

5 10:57 a.m.)

6 MR. EISNER: Anymore comments on

7 record retention? Then why don't we get onto

8 warranty information. Comments on that?

9 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I know

10 that we had a lot of discussion on that last

11 meeting because Steve brought it up as a way that

12 folks could track and we kind of diverged on

13 that.

14 And we've heard from several folks

15 about the caveats that they put in the warranty

16 information that it won't be released to anyone,

17 so some concerns about that.

18 So I don't think there's anything new

19 to be said on this. Does anyone have anything

20 new on this territory at all?

21 MR. EISNER: All right, let's go onto

22 DOT investigation process. 
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1 MR. RAWALD: Harvey, you're going to

2 become used to that. We just assume when he says

3 DOT he means DOE. 

4 MR. EISNER: All right, first thing we

5 had under that is sting type operations.

6 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug. 

7 So, as Amy and I mentioned before I think this is

8 an area -- and I say Amy because she backed me up

9 on this point before -- this is an area where it

10 isn't necessarily going to be regulated. 

11 I mean, it's going to be something

12 that we would do. But I don't think it's

13 necessary to have a regulation saying, hey, DOE

14 can buy products in a mock house where we're

15 going to have people tracked and then installing

16 things.

17 I don't even know how we want to write

18 those regulations or whether I think it would be

19 necessary.

20 DOE is going to use investigative

21 tools to investigate cases. And certainly a

22 sting type operation will be on the table, though
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1 how we execute it and pay for it would be a

2 totally different question.

3 But I'm kind of adverse to regulating

4 the investigative tools that we would use to that

5 extent. But I'm interested in hearing contrary

6 comments to that.

7 MR. EISNER: Any thoughts on that? 

8 Want to have any discussion of these items on

9 here, how they might be used that would be

10 different? All right. Nothing to add on that? 

11 Let's go off to consequences.

12 MR. RAWALD: Well, we also had under

13 records -- we had under investigation records

14 production. 

15 So we've talked at length about record

16 retention and we've thrown in records production

17 as part of the discussion. But I don't know if

18 anyone has anything else they want to say about

19 the idea of what records will be produced to what

20 process we would go through.

21 I mean, just to give folks an idea,

22 the Department has subpoena authority which we do
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1 use, and we also have just basic record --

2 request for information authority which we use as

3 well.

4 So, if I submit a request for

5 information to someone, if they're saying, hey,

6 just give me this couple of documents back that

7 we need, it's very targeted. 

8 Whereas a subpoena requires some sort

9 of sworn statement affirming to the competence of

10 it.

11 So, it just depends on what we're

12 doing as far as what level of oath we require

13 with the things that we require back from people.

14 But I don't think there's anything

15 else really to go into on that. But I don't know

16 if anybody else has anything they want to say

17 about records production.

18 What I discussed last time was

19 whenever we require or request records to be

20 produced we do give the caveat that, hey, if you

21 provide confidential business information that

22 you give us two copies, one copy with the
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1 information not redacted and one copy with it

2 redacted.

3 And then if we were to receive a FOIA

4 request or some sort of request for that

5 information later on we would go back to you, we

6 would discuss the redaction with you before we'd

7 ever produce that. 

8 And so that would be codified in any

9 records production scheme that we would have. 

10 That would be standard course of business for us.

11 But I know that raises concerns for

12 folks about what information is getting out

13 there. 

14 So, if people want me to bring

15 somebody in to talk to the group about how we

16 handle confidential business information ,I can

17 have a lawyer come in and talk about that. Or if

18 you're comfortable with what I told you, I'd feel

19 that great about that too.

20 So just let me know your thoughts on

21 that. This is your time to kind of just say hey

22 Doug, we want to hear more about this, or we
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1 don't.

2 MR. EISNER: Any questions? Anybody

3 want to say more? 

4 MR. WHITE: Well, this is Chuck White. 

5 I don't know whether I want to ask or not.

6 MR. RAWALD: You can have lunch and

7 think about it.

8 MR. WHITE: Are these -- how do you

9 envision the investigations? As a result of a

10 complaint? Or are you envisioning you're going

11 to just start calling people up out of the phone

12 book?

13 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this is Doug. 

14 So, I think as I talked to you about before we

15 have to be effective in how we target things.

16 And so what I definitely view is that

17 we will react to any phone call or complaint we

18 receive. As a baseline we will react. 

19 And so if I get a complaint from a

20 contractor or from anyone saying hey, I think

21 that contractor X is not doing the right thing I

22 will consider then serving that contractor with
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1 an information request if I feel it's prudent.

2 You know, I may not want to give that

3 guy a heads up that we're looking into him yet. 

4 But at some point I'm going to ask to look at his

5 records. That's the most likely thing. So

6 that's the most likely scenario.

7 I'm less likely to just pick out of

8 the phone book somebody who's in South Carolina

9 and send him a records request saying produce all

10 your records. That's not very effective, so I'm

11 very unlikely to do that. 

12 I'm not going to say we wouldn't do

13 that because I want to reserve the right for the

14 Department to do everything that they can that

15 makes sense. But as a practical matter that's

16 pretty ineffective and it's pretty unlikely that

17 we would do that.

18 What we're more likely to do is

19 respond to investigations or to complaints, or if

20 we see some sort of pattern. I get a letter

21 from, say, Tim saying hey Doug, I see a lot of

22 shipments to Bluffton, South Carolina. Can you
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1 look into that? I might follow up on that.

2 So that's the kind of area where I'm

3 more likely to do some sort of more random4 sounding information request.

5 But I think what's more likely is if

6 I had information about an area I'd want to do

7 some research before I start randomly targeting

8 burdensome requests to people. 

9 Because I really, I feel like you have

10 to be targeted and specific in what you ask for

11 before you start doing these kind of requests. 

12 Both because it can end up being a lot of

13 searching for needles in a haystack, that's not

14 useful. So, I want to assure you that we're

15 going to be at least judicious in what we do with

16 this, Chuck.

17 And I see Chuck nodding. That helps

18 him feel better about this.

19 MR. WHITE: Yes, thank you.

20 MR. RAWALD: I also want to put

21 forward that, you know, we're talking about an

22 investigation of things that are being installed
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1 that shouldn't be there. 

2 But there is another scenario that I

3 could envision that is of at least note to people

4 here. And I want to make sure we understand this

5 as well.

6 So, we've talked about, okay, well we

7 have a thing that the manufacturer rates as a 14

8 SEER. It's then for some reason installed in a

9 place where it shouldn't be.

10 There's also a thing that the

11 manufacturer rates as a 14 SEER but the

12 Department tests it and it proves to be a 13.6

13 SEER. And that thing has been installed in a

14 place it shouldn't be.

15 So, I would argue to you that that's

16 not the installer's fault, right? He's just

17 going off what's on the label or what he's been

18 told.

19 But the manufacturer has produced a

20 product that has actually been now found non21 compliant and installed in a region it shouldn't

22 be.
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1 So that's a different scenario that we

2 haven't discussed at all but may be worthy of at

3 least discussion somewhat in this investigative

4 process point.

5 John Hurst jumped up as soon as I

6 mentioned this.

7 MR. HURST: As a manufacturer we'd fix

8 it. We wouldn't penalize a consumer for a non9 compliant product.

10 And it has happened. It's usually

11 caught early but we would fix it as a

12 manufacturer. 

13 MR. WINNINGHAM: Doug, this is Dave

14 with Allied.

15 And I mean that situation, and it's in

16 effect today with 13 SEER minimum equipment. So,

17 you know, how it relates to regional requirements

18 probably isn't a lot different than how it is to

19 national minimum requirements today.

20 MR. RAWALD: Right. And this is Doug. 

21 So I guess, what I envision though is -- so,

22 today if you have a 13 SEER product and we test
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1 it and it turns out to be 12.6 we'd find it to be

2 non-compliant and you wouldn't be allowed to make

3 it and sell it anymore.

4 But if you had a 14 SEER product and

5 I then found it to be 13.6 it wouldn't be non6 compliant with the national standard. So you

7 could conceptually still sell that in the North. 

8 And so that would be a more thorny issue for us

9 to ferret out.

10 And John's kind of leaping out of his

11 chair here.

12 MR. HURST: You bring up an

13 interesting point. If you had a 13.6 product

14 that was sold as a 14.0 SEER in the South you

15 have a non-compliant product, but in the North

16 you still have a product that the consumer didn't

17 purchase.

18 And I think what we would do is we

19 would still honor the purchase with the consumer

20 for what they purchased.

21 I can't think of a residential

22 application where that's happened, at least with
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1 my company. 

2 I do know that we've had a rare

3 instance, one in the last six years that I can

4 think of with a commercial customer where we had

5 to go back to the customer and retrofit the

6 equipment to reach the standard. 

7 But I think it still applies. I think

8 if the consumer bought something and it didn't

9 meet the standard I think you still have to go

10 back and rectify the situation with the consumer,

11 whether it's technically compliant or technically

12 not.

13 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt Lattanzi. 

14 Just an additional comment.

15 I echo everything that John just said. 

16 But we already have in place through the AHRI

17 verification program and the DOE regulation that

18 unit, you're correct, we could still sell it in

19 the North.

20 But in many cases it's either got to

21 be fixed or re-rated per those programs.

22 MR. ROCKY: Bryan Rocky. So I think
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1 the end result is the non-compliance process is

2 the same. What we'd end up doing is we're going

3 to get to some point of talking about the

4 labeling of the product. 

5 And I think we're in a situation of a

6 product is non-compliant in the South or

7 Southwest, but still can be sold in the North. 

8 We're talking about having to modify a label on

9 the product or in our literature about where it

10 can be sold.

11 MR. RAWALD: John, you want to make a

12 point?

13 MR. HURST: Yes, I was just going to

14 say if I put my advocate hat on I don't want you

15 to think that we do this just for altruistic

16 purposes and that we have our capes on and we're

17 doing the right thing. Which we should, it is

18 the right thing to do.

19 But we have brands to protect. Most

20 of us have been -- are with companies that derive

21 their history back over 100 years. And we do

22 protect our brand vigorously. 
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1 So it is the right thing to do. But

2 if you're wondering why we would do that, a lot

3 of it has to do with our reputation in the

4 marketplace with our distributors and our

5 contractors.

6 MR. RAWALD: And so this is Doug. And

7 if you'll go with me down the rabbit hole a

8 little bit further.

9 So, as you may well know once we find

10 something non-compliant, we then assess civil

11 penalties for how many units were sold that were

12 non-compliant.

13 So, what I would think in this

14 instance would be the concern that we would then

15 want to at least have the consideration of

16 assessing civil penalties for the non-compliant

17 units that were installed.

18 And so the manufacturer would have to

19 be able to figure out through their supply chain

20 how many were installed in the South versus the

21 North. 

22 It wouldn't be simply a question of
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1 now we go to you and we say hey, model ABC was

2 non-compliant. How many do you distribute? And

3 you say, oh, we distributed 1,000 units.

4 But if you had 1,000 units but 500 of

5 which went South and 500 of which went North,

6 that 500 which went North would not be non7 compliant. The 500 that went South would be. 

8 So.

9 MR. HURST: Point of clarification.

10 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

11 MR. HURST: So if we rated a unit 

12 14.0. Regardless of where it went we rated it

13 14.0 and it didn't meet that rating. Is that, in

14 fact, still non-compliant? Because it's not

15 compliant with the rating that we stated that

16 unit was. Regardless of whether it went North or

17 South.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the

19 Department of Energy's finding of non-compliance

20 is limited to its meeting the standard, not its

21 rating. 

22 So we don't issue Notice of Non-
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1 compliance for products that fail to fall within

2 their rating range if they still are above the

3 minimum standard. 

4 So if you have a 13.8 product and it

5 tests at 13.2 and AHRI would say oh no, no, that

6 can't be rated that high, we would still say we

7 wouldn't find it non-compliant because its

8 compliant with a 13.0 standard.

9 MR. EISNER: How big a problem is

10 this? How often do you find one that is less

11 than it's rated?

12 MR. RAWALD: So, I can't say the scope

13 of the issue, but it is something that we -- we

14 spend a lot of money and time testing products

15 and we find things non-compliant from across

16 product classes. I don't have the numbers on

17 central air conditioning units specifically, but

18 it's an issue.

19 And so we're going to buy a 14 SEER

20 product. We're going to test it. It's

21 conceivable we'll find that a 14 SEER product

22 tests at 13.8. 
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1 And so what I want folks to understand

2 is then there becomes a question of what civil

3 penalty ramification would that be and how would

4 DOE investigate that.

5 Because whereas if we're dealing with

6 a compliant upon an installed unit that everybody

7 knows is 13.0 and shouldn't be there in the first

8 place we're going from the bottom up. We're

9 going from the installer back upward and saying

10 okay, where it is.

11 But if we have a product that was put

12 out there as 14.0 that actually is 13.6 or 13.8,

13 that one we went from the top down. And so we're

14 going for the manufacturer and saying

15 Manufacturer, you have to tell us which went

16 where. 

17 And if you don't, the presumption may

18 be all of them went the wrong place. Where do I

19 start? I can't presume they all went to the

20 right place.

21 So, there's kind of an emphasis on the

22 manufacturer to kind of know where things are, or
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1 at least hope the distributors and manufacturers

2 are going to help -- or the dealers, help them

3 figure it out so they can minimize their

4 liability of what was installed in the wrong

5 place.

6 So this is kind of just a different

7 angle for you guys to think about as we start

8 thinking about this issue a little bit more. 

9 Matt's nodding his head saying, where

10 are my lawyers. I should have brought them

11 today.

12 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt. No, I'm

13 just acknowledging that you brought up something

14 that hadn't occurred to me. But I agree with

15 what you're saying.

16 MR. RAWALD: That's why I'm here,

17 Matt.

18 MR. LATTANZI: For the second week in

19 a row you've done that to me. But figuring out

20 how to track it through the channel, I see what

21 you're saying.

22 MR. GIBBONS: This is John from
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1 Carrier. And I wish I could play poker with Matt

2 because it would be an easy win.

3 (Laughter)

4 MR. GIBBONS: No, that's not my

5 comment. 

6 I'm not speaking for all

7 manufacturers, but I know that we do a very

8 thorough job of tracking at least the initial

9 shipment from where we bill it and ship it to. 

10 So, after that though it gets

11 treacherous because as we've talked about earlier

12 in the earlier proceedings is that distributors

13 then, we ask them to track where they bill and

14 ship it as well. And I'll have to look at Steve

15 and see.

16 You know, I think again we're going to

17 get down to whose records are better at some

18 point.

19 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. So I

20 guess you can understand my point, right? That

21 we need to know which ones were installed in the

22 place they shouldn't have been because those are
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1 the ones that you should be charged for.

2 Otherwise, we would kind of be left I

3 think in the position of having to say well, all

4 of them might have been. And so that's the

5 question that you folks need to think about a

6 little bit with these records issues.

7 MR. GIBBONS: This is John again. 

8 Similar to the IRS, isn't the onus of proving

9 that they were installed fall upon the

10 manufacturers through the chain then?

11 MR. RAWALD: That would be my

12 supposition. That would be my thought.

13 MR. GIBBONS: Okay. With the help of

14 distribution and the whole channel.

15 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

16 MR. EISNER: Other comments on this

17 issue? Okay, anything further?

18 MR. GIBBONS: My last comment is

19 that's going to be very difficult. Just make

20 sure you comprehend all that.

21 MR. RAWALD: No, I get it's difficult. 

22 So what I'm saying is we need to make sure as we
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1 develop this record retention/record production

2 scheme that we're considering all of these

3 angles. Not just the way of tracking from what

4 was installed upwards to figure out, you know,

5 did we know that that shouldn't be there, but

6 also from downwards when if we find it's going to

7 be non-compliant that a manufacturer is able to

8 sufficiently account for all the things that

9 should not have been installed in a place because

10 they rated it a 14 when in fact it didn't perform

11 at 14. 

12 So, that's -- Jordan's shaking his

13 head because I don't know if you heard what we

14 were talking about before. Maybe you were out of

15 the room. 

16 So that's the concern. You have a

17 product that you rated a 14 but upon our testing

18 it proves to be less than 14. You're going to

19 have to be able to come to us and say, yes, these

20 are the numbers of units that were installed in

21 places they shouldn't have been because they

22 actually are not compliant with the regional
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1 standard.

2 I mean, it's certainly not the dealer

3 or the contractor's fault, right? Everyone

4 agrees with that. The contractor was just

5 putting in place what they thought was an

6 appropriate product. It really is the

7 manufacturer who gave them a product that was

8 less efficient than it should have been.

9 MR. EISNER: And the fine as I recall

10 is $200?

11 MR. RAWALD: So the maximum civil

12 penalty -- this is Doug from the Department of

13 Energy -- is $200 per unit.

14 MR. EISNER: So it might not be worth

15 the manufacturer's expense to figure out where

16 each one went. It might be cheaper to pay the

17 penalty if it weren't a large number of units.

18 MR. RAWALD: So, Charlie asked for a

19 clarification on the penalty. So, for fines of

20 non-compliance we charge per unit that are

21 distributed in U.S. commerce. So, for -- so it

22 would be $200 per unit maximum civil penalty,
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1 though we take a lot of things in consideration

2 deciding what the actual civil penalty should be. 

3 That's our maximum amount.

4 Karen, you had a response?

5 MS. MEYERS: So I'm not sure I

6 entirely agree.

7 So there is a method to go after

8 manufacturers if they rate their product

9 incorrectly. That's established. We have that.

10 But I think the issue that you're

11 bringing up, I don't know if I agree with it.

12 So if by chance that were to happen

13 and those products did get installed. I mean, I

14 don't know that that's -- I guess it makes me

15 really uncomfortable.

16 Because I for one would not be able to

17 tell you where those units were installed at. 

18 So, it's almost like, you know, you've got double

19 jeopardy going on here against manufacturers.

20 I understand your point. I guess I'm

21 just very hesitant about this, you know, how

22 manufacturers would get penalized once. Under
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1 the first scenario if they rated it wrong

2 definitely, you know, that's an issue.

3 But to then penalize them again under

4 a separate scheme for those units getting

5 installed in the wrong area to me is something

6 that I -- and not being able to tell you where

7 those units were installed at is problematic.

8 MR. RAWALD: Right, and I want to be

9 very clear. So we're not talking about double

10 charging. That's not the issue.

11 So, right now what we would do if

12 something was below a 13 SEER there would be the

13 penalty for it being below 13 SEER.

14 What I'm talking about is the issue

15 where it's not below the national standard, so

16 we're not charging you for being non-compliant

17 with the national standard.

18 So you have a product that was rated

19 at a value that allowed it to be installed in the

20 region. So 14 and above, or with the EER value

21 in the Southwest.

22 And when it's actually tested by the
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1 Department of Energy proves to be not performing

2 at that minimum level, but above the national

3 standard.

4 So then the violation would be that

5 the product was non-compliant with the regional

6 standard when it was installed.

7 MS. MEYERS: But last week I thought

8 we clarified that every condensing unit sold in

9 the South must have a coil-only rating that meets

10 that minimum.

11 MR. RAWALD: I agree.

12 MS. MEYERS: So it would be below the

13 standard. It might not be below a 13, but even

14 if it's a 14 and it tests at 13.8 it's no

15 different than a 13 testing at 12.8.

16 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I guess --

17 but you have your 14 SEER rated model. And

18 you're selling it in both the South and the

19 North. So you're selling it everywhere.

20 And the question is if I find it to be

21 non-compliant with the regional standard do you

22 want to just pay the civil penalty for selling
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1 all the ones that were sold? Because they would

2 have been legally sold in the North, Karen. 

3 That's what I'm saying.

4 So I'm saying manufacturers should

5 think of a way of trying -- you may want to think

6 of a way of minimizing your liability. 

7 So I'm coming to you saying -- I'm all

8 for the suggestion of saying hey, we can't follow

9 it so we're just going to take credit for all

10 1,000 units. 

11 But if you only know that 500 of them

12 went to the South you may want to think about how

13 does record retention, record production and

14 these requirements, how do they help us to

15 minimize our liability. Because that's what

16 we're coming around here.

17 John Hurst stood up when we were

18 discussing that just now.

19 MR. HURST: I agree we'd prefer to be

20 penalized on the lower number.

21 (Laughter)

22 MR. RAWALD: That's a very logical
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1 position.

2 MR. HURST: And I think we would work

3 with the Department to attempt to find as many of

4 those units as we possibly could.

5 To Karen's point we would know through

6 the distribution. Then we would have to ask our

7 distributors who they sold it to and go through

8 their dealer networks to attempt to locate those. 

9 Much like we would if we had a safety issue on a

10 product.

11 Will you get 100 percent of them? I

12 don't know. But if there was a financial

13 incentive for me to segregate the ones that were

14 subject to a civil penalty I think I'd make a

15 good faith effort to reduce that liability.

16 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I think

17 that's very logical. 

18 I guess what I'm trying to say is

19 there's some incentive here from your end to also

20 make sure that record retention and record

21 production are pretty well kept. So that way you

22 guys can minimize your liability I would think.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 

2 While we're talking about liability I'd just like

3 to mention that the California Energy Commission

4 is in the process of conducting an appliance

5 standards enforcement rulemaking. 

6 And the California legislature has

7 given the CEC a penal authority of up to $2,500

8 per violation. 

9 And the CEC replicates DOE's appliance

10 standards in its Title 20 appliance standards. 

11 So, while the objective here isn't

12 punitive, the maximum penalty the CEC could levy

13 for a violation of the appliance standards is

14 $2,500 per event.

15 And that might influence those doing

16 business in California to be more concerned about

17 potential penalties than the $200 that DOE has

18 authorized. 

19 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd

20 from AHRI. 

21 Back when we did our original list one

22 of the things that we did have up there was the
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1 interplay between these requirements and state

2 enforcement and state adoption of these

3 requirements.

4 And I actually think that's something

5 that we need to set up as maybe a separate

6 conversation, to flesh that out a little bit. 

7 Because I think we do have some questions just

8 about how that would work. So that kind of goes

9 to that point.

10 And then in terms of, Doug, the point

11 that you're discussing, you know, I think that

12 what you're talking about would require some

13 clarification within the rule that DOE has the

14 view that it has that authority. Because it's

15 not in there in black and white now. So I think

16 that's something we continue to discuss.

17 And I also think that this is

18 something where kind of a compliance -- or not

19 compliance, but in terms of DOE raising this

20 concern to manufacturers and their own

21 remediation plan.

22 Because if as it's been articulated
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1 that because of the importance of their

2 reputation in the industry they may do much more

3 than whatever a $200 penalty would be per unit to

4 remedy this. 

5 And if they have made that good faith

6 effort I think that's something the Department

7 certainly should consider.

8 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. So we have

9 a policy statement out about how we deal with

10 civil penalties. And one of the things that we

11 discuss in there is remediation.

12 So we certainly always consider things

13 that manufacturers do to make things up to the

14 people who are affected in assessing the need for

15 or the amount of any civil penalty. So I would

16 of course say that applies equally in this case.

17 And to be clear, what you want

18 clarification on is our ability to assess a civil

19 penalty for selling a product that would be

20 compliant with the national standard but that was

21 installed in a region against manufacturers

22 because they were the ones who manufactured the
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1 product that in fact was not at that standard.

2 MS. SHEPHERD: Right. I mean, I don't

3 think that's something that the manufacturers are

4 certainly -- I had really thought about, as you

5 suggested.

6 So I think that we need to know if

7 that is, in fact, one of the things the

8 Department is going to articulate as one of the

9 responsibilities for compliance.

10 MR. RAWALD: Right. And we can talk

11 about it more. Just for me, from a point of view

12 of in this case unlike the labeled product that

13 we know is being put in a place that it shouldn't

14 be, but it was labeled and the contractor ignored

15 it, or the distributor ignored it.

16 This is a case where the product was

17 labeled properly, it just was -- or the label was

18 what it was and everyone followed the label. But

19 it actually should not have been rated that way.

20 And so the responsibility would

21 seemingly fall on the shoulders of the

22 manufacturer, right? From a fairness point of
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1 view. Because a contractor can't be responsible

2 for what the product would be tested at.

3 So there has to be some sort of check

4 on requiring the manufacturers to have their

5 product actually comply with the 14 SEER. And

6 that's one of the methods, I think.

7 MS. SHEPHERD: Well, I think so. But

8 I think that there certainly probably is the view

9 here that that's covered by the existing

10 regulations. 

11 And when you add something on top of

12 it you're adding another penalty for what is

13 basically the same conduct. They didn't install

14 the product.

15 And, yes, the contractor wouldn't be

16 liable because they didn't knowingly violate the

17 law. Although we'd need to have that

18 conversation as well, I think, because that's

19 another area that's not really articulated.

20 But, so I guess from the question of

21 an effective enforcement plan does the Department

22 really think that this is going to be such a
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1 problem that it does sort of need that double

2 penalty to ensure that this isn't going to

3 happen. Because it's going to be addressed at

4 the manufacturer level with the existing

5 regulations.

6 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I want to

7 jump back from the word "double penalty" again

8 because that's what Karen mentioned before.

9 I don't think there's any doubling

10 here. I mean, this is one penalty for something

11 that was non-compliant. And actually it's less

12 of a penalty than it would be for a national

13 standard on compliance because it's only limited

14 to those things that were in the region. So,

15 that's how I'm viewing it.

16 So we could talk more about why it

17 would be double, but I don't see it that way. I

18 see it as only one penalty.

19 MS. SHEPHERD: But it's the same

20 conduct. They didn't install the unit. So it's

21 not like you have a penalty for the manufacturer

22 and then you have a penalty for the installation. 
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1

2 You have the conduct that was the

3 manufacture and labeling of the unit and that

4 already has a penalty on it. And now you're

5 saying well, we're also going to put another

6 penalty on -- they didn't do anything else. They

7 didn't install it. But that's what you're basing

8 the second penalty off of.

9 MR. RAWALD: I'm not. I'm not going

10 to charge both. It's only going to be one

11 penalty.

12 Because they're not manufacturing a

13 product that's non-compliant with the national

14 standard. So, once again --

15 MS. SHEPHERD: So we're only talking

16 about when it's above the federal minimum.

17 MR. RAWALD: Right. That's the

18 scenario I'm talking about. If it's below the

19 minimum standard then it's going to be only one

20 penalty for that. If it's rated a 14.0 and tests

21 12.5 I'm going to charge you for all 1,000 units.

22 The question, if it's rated a 14 and
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1 it tests at 13.6, do I charge you for all 1,000,

2 or do you try to make an effort to figure out how

3 many of the 1,000 went South so you only pay for

4 part of it. 

5 So I'm not double-charging you. I'm

6 trying to charge you less. Does everyone

7 understand that? But it requires everyone to --

8 MS. SHEPHERD: I think we do now.

9 (Laughter)

10 MR. RAWALD: Okay. But it requires

11 everyone to play ball. I mean, everyone has got

12 to be playing ball with the record

13 retention/record production so we can follow the

14 trail. If we can't then what am I left to do?

15 Okay, everyone follows me now. Now

16 everyone is clear. Thank you. I don't want to

17 be confusing.

18 MR. LATTANZI: Great, Doug. This is

19 Matt. I think John said it best. We're all

20 going to cooperate to find out and try and figure

21 out where these things are installed to minimize

22 the financial impact to our companies. I think
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1 that's a given.

2 And with respect to John, I'm not a

3 poker player but I'll challenge him to a long

4 drive contest anytime.

5 (Laughter)

6 MS. SHEPHERD: It's got to be straight

7 too, Matt, though.

8 MR. LATTANZI: No, I take -- straight

9 doesn't count. It's pure distance.

10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I just

11 want to say I do appreciate this exchange and I

12 like the way incentives fall to stack up in the

13 right direction.

14 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else on

15 this issue? 

16 All right, let's go onto consequences. 

17 First one is DOE finding of routine violation. 

18 Anybody want to start the conversation?

19 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. I'd

20 like to ask Charlie or Chuck if they can give us

21 some opinion on this. Because last week Charlie

22 seemed to imply that he liked this more than the
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1 idea of the compliant contractor list, or those

2 contractors who have said they would be compliant

3 with the regional standards. So I'd like to kind

4 of get more of their perspective on this from the

5 contractor point of view.

6 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

7 ACCA. 

8 Yes, I do prefer the list of violators

9 versus the list of good people, only because the

10 list of violators you're going to do. And

11 there's no reliance upon sort of an effort taken

12 by someone just to get their name on a list just

13 to show compliance.

14 It may be overlooked, it may be -- I

15 just think it's a lot more streamlined to do it

16 that way.

17 Now, within the -- I guess I didn't

18 realize that was in the context of this routine

19 violation manufacturer issue. And maybe I'm

20 reading this wrong. 

21 Are we talking about the issue where

22 the manufacturers are held liable when they
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1 routinely sell to known violators? Or is this

2 separately as a --

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this is Doug. 

4 So this goes to that. 

5 So, what we discussed before is should

6 the Department adopt a process by which as a

7 threshold matter we issue a Notice of Finding of

8 Routine Violation by a

9 contractor/dealer/distributor that's announced

10 independent of our finding a civil penalty

11 against the manufacturer for dealing with them.

12 So, because there are kind of two ways

13 to approach this. Which is the way that's kind

14 of consistent with how we do things at the

15 Department now which is we issue a Notice of Non16 compliance for a product that's non-compliant and

17 then we assess a civil penalty based upon how

18 many of those units were actually sold.

19 So similar to that we would have a

20 finding that someone was non-compliant or they

21 were a routine violator and then anyone that

22 dealt with them we would then charge a civil
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1 penalty through a Notice of Proposed Civil

2 Penalty process against manufacturers.

3 The other process would simply to be

4 to go through a Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty

5 process where as part of that I would say, you

6 know, company X has dealt with contractor Y. 

7 Contractor Y is a routine violator. Company X

8 therefore knew this. Company X owes us money. 

9 So that's the other process. 

10 So, there seems to be at least some

11 belief that having an independent finding of

12 routine violation may be helpful. But that has

13 its own concerns when we do that. 

14 And so that's kind of where I wanted

15 you to go is what people think about that process

16 in general, whether we should have such a

17 process.

18 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan. Oh,

19 sorry. Charlie?

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie, ACCA. 

21 So, yes, I think I agree with you

22 there. I think the devil is in the details. 
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1 What's routine and at what point does routine

2 rise to the level of being noticed. 

3 And I don't think we're going through

4 that right now. I have some ideas and I also

5 still want to talk to some other people when we

6 do get to that nitty-gritty discussion.

7 MR. EISNER: Jordan, did you want to

8 comment?

9 MR. DORIA: Yes. This is Jordan Doria

10 with Ingersoll Rand.

11 I think it's very important that the

12 Department make a determination on who is a

13 routine violator. And that conduct going forward

14 by manufacturers would be that you would be

15 prohibited from selling to those parties.

16 What I wanted to get clear on, Doug's

17 talking about enforcement. I don't believe it

18 would be appropriate to have the Department make

19 a determination that somebody is a routine

20 violator and then to look backwards and see who

21 has been engaged in some form of commerce with

22 them and then to assess civil penalties. 
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1 Because there would have been no

2 reasonable way for a manufacturer to know that

3 that party was going to eventually become a

4 routine violator and that their conduct at that

5 time was unlawful.

6 So I think there needs to be a finding

7 by the Department. And then moving forward the

8 party that is considered to be a routine

9 violator, manufacturers cannot sell to them.

10 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. And I

11 think, Jordan, I staked this territory out last

12 week when I said that there may be occasions

13 where the Department would think that that would

14 be giving someone a pass for dealing with someone

15 they probably knew wasn't a good person to deal

16 with but they were able to get away and stop

17 doing it because we hadn't found them yet.

18 And I don't know if the Department --

19 and I'll have to talk to a lot of people about

20 this because this is an issue that we haven't

21 dealt on. 

22 But the Department wouldn't
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1 necessarily want to give a pass on that kind of

2 conduct if we had evidence.

3 You know, if we had evidence that a

4 manufacturer knew that the distributor or dealer,

5 contractor was violating the regional standards,

6 just because we hadn't issued a finding yet at

7 that point. So that's the concern.

8 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

9 Ingersoll Rand again.

10 I think that the key phrase that I

11 just took away from what you just said is if the

12 Department of Energy in some manner came across

13 evidence that the manufacturer, in fact, knew. 

14 I think that's a very important

15 clarification, right? My point before was if we

16 had no reasonable basis to suspect that this

17 party might eventually become known as a routine,

18 or determined to be a routine violator then I

19 think it would be unfair to sort of after the

20 fact penalize us.

21 If you were to unearth something that

22 said yes, we did, in fact, know I think that's
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1 very different. And I think that would need to

2 be spelled out in the eventual rule here.

3 MS. SHEPHERD: I think another thing

4 that's important to clarity is that we need to

5 have some clarity not just about routine but what

6 a violation is.

7 What is a violation by a contractor,

8 what is a violation by a dealer and what is a

9 violation by a distributor?

10 Because this is basing -- the

11 manufacturer's liability is all contingent upon

12 their knowledge that one of these parties has

13 violated the law. And if we don't know what

14 those violations are then this law is just vague. 

15 And there's no way that I think it could be

16 enforceable.

17 So I really think we have to come to

18 an agreement about what those violations are

19 going to be.

20 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug. 

21 So, I have a different perspective on vagueness,

22 which is that unfortunately vagueness then is
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1 filled by the agency. And so that oftentimes

2 allows agency discretion to fill it.

3 MS. SHEPHERD: But the manufacturers

4 would have no notice of what conduct is

5 prohibited.

6 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so I think

7 it's important for us to either define it or for

8 us to then in some way provide more information

9 on that in a regulatory context.

10 MS. SHEPHERD: So you're saying we do

11 it or you do it, right?

12 MR. RAWALD: That's what I think is

13 going to happen. So, I would encourage you to go

14 look at this issue. I think it's very important.

15 Now, Jon Melchi pointed out that the

16 violation in his mind is installation of a non17 compliant unit. Which seems to make sense from a

18 dealer and a contractor point of view.

19 But I am left with this congressional

20 language that tells me a distributor can violate. 

21 And so until I can hear what the distributor's

22 violation is, we're going to have to fill in that
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1 gap somehow.

2 And so I need for people to kind of

3 think about and come to terms with the fact that

4 the statute has described the distributors as

5 being able to violate it in some way. So what

6 would be violative on the distributor's part?

7 MS. SHEPHERD: So, here's a suggestion

8 for discussion. What if the distributors'

9 liability or their violation mirrored the one for

10 the manufacturer that's in the statute.

11 So, obviously they wouldn't be

12 knowingly selling to any distributor, but

13 knowingly selling to a contractor. Basically the

14 same language. That way when you had clarity

15 around what the manufacturers could and couldn't

16 do it also would be applicable to the

17 distributors.

18 MR. EISNER: Any comments on this

19 suggestion? 

20 MR. RAWALD: And Jon, you and Steve

21 can talk about it over lunch. You don't have to

22 feel obligated to give us an answer right now.
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1 MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with HARDI. 

2 If we could have a little time to discuss.

3 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I think that's

4 appropriate. 

5 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. I

6 don't really want to weigh in on that, but I do

7 want to echo Charlie's comments that the list of

8 who's bad is certainly much more helpful than a

9 list of who's good.

10 We do need to get around to the

11 "routine" and the "violator" or violation. 

12 That's probably the biggest can we've been

13 kicking down the road. Not that I'm volunteering

14 to solve it this moment, but certainly we need to

15 clear that up.

16 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. And

17 so, just so you understand, I don't think the

18 Department would publish a list per se. 

19 What we do is when we find things non20 compliant we post them to our website because we

21 have a finding of non-compliance. 

22 So what I would envision would be just
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1 -- because it's in with the standard of practice. 

2 We would put our findings and routine violation

3 onto our website for people to have.

4 Now, if people wanted to codify a more

5 defined process we could. I just want to make

6 sure we're being very careful as we add more

7 processes on this thing that are divergent from

8 what we do that may cause more concerns.

9 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd

10 from AHRI.

11 I don't think it necessarily has to be

12 something that's a shameful list or something

13 like that.

14 But it might -- and I'm not fully

15 aware of exactly what your notices now look like.

16 But it does need to be something

17 that's pretty easy to understand because this is

18 all contingent upon knowledge. And so you want

19 something that people can go to in a user20 friendly way and sort of easily see who they

21 shouldn't be dealing with.

22 As opposed to like digging through
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1 every single Notice of Violation and you get to

2 the end and you find out whether, you know. Or

3 whatever it might be.

4 MR. SACHS: Doug, this is Harvey. One

5 of the things that sank into me last week was

6 that a published list of known routine violators

7 is a death sentence for the contractor's

8 business. 

9 And that carries with it the

10 implication that this has got some due process

11 steps and it takes some time.

12 And that is likely to mean a chunk of

13 time between your decision to launch an

14 investigation, your determination that it

15 probably is and whatever process is required. Is

16 that -- before you could put it on the web.

17 Does that all look like three months,

18 or a year, or two cooling seasons? Because I

19 think that has implications for when you're able

20 to start throttling that distribution channel,

21 start letting people know that there is some risk

22 associated with continuing business without
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1 putting a gun to the head of that potentially

2 non-compliant contractor.

3 I just, I don't understand what this

4 process looks like in analogues today.

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the Notice of

6 Non-compliance determination process now does

7 take awhile because it involves testing almost

8 always.

9 So what we do is we test a product. 

10 We buy it. We test it. We get results. We then

11 go out and get more products from the

12 manufacturer. They get shipped to us. We test

13 those. We look at the data. We then make a

14 finding. So typically, a six- to nine-month

15 process.

16 I can envision this being as long

17 though it doesn't involve testing and so it's

18 more boots on the ground kind of investigations. 

19 But it could take awhile to do a fulsome

20 investigation. So I want to -- especially

21 depending on what level of actual certitude and

22 investigation we want to go through with these
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1 particular things. 

2 So, not having a process in place that

3 effectively addresses this we have to really

4 think about it. 

5 So it could be something that takes

6 three to nine months. I mean, it definitely

7 would not be shorter than three months I would

8 think. But I think on average you would see

9 something like that.

10 So, do I think it would take multiple

11 years? Absolutely not. But definitely could be

12 somewhere on the latter side of six months to a

13 year.

14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. In terms

15 of potential loose analogues like the dry shipped

16 condensing units, six months, it's a season's

17 worth of sales. And if we're seeing somebody who

18 is flagrant it is consequential for those who are

19 trying to do the right thing. 

20 So, I don't have an answer, but I

21 think this is why we all have concerns about

22 making sure that parties are aware that they
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1 might be concerned that you're dealing with a

2 potential routine violator before there's a final

3 determination so they can make business

4 decisions. 

5 But on the other hand, the prudent

6 business decision might well be to terminate the

7 relationship on inadequate evidence.

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so -- this is

9 Doug. So, what I hear you saying is that there

10 might be some sort of process where we say this

11 person's being looked at before we make a final

12 determination.

13 The question is how fair is that to

14 the person we're looking at. Because if it's a

15 spurious claim and they're really -- we clear

16 that person, are they already stigmatized and

17 have they already lost business for a cooling

18 season such that they are out of business.

19 So, I want to be very careful with how

20 we approach this particular thorny issue.

21 And I get the fact that -- I mean,

22 enforcement is only effective if it's timely. 
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1 That's a baseline premise, right? And so my job

2 is to close cases. That's what I do. I look at

3 things as quickly as possible to get them closed. 

4 Either an action has been taken or it's resolved.

5 And so I don't want to take a long

6 time. But I'm functioning in a very practical

7 real world in which I do business every day which

8 I can tell you the time-line is probably not

9 going to be not as short as I would like it to

10 be.

11 But without having done these. You

12 know, we give people a month to respond to the

13 information request. We give people time to

14 respond to things. So it's going to take time to

15 get information back and look at information and

16 respond to it.

17 MR. SACHS: The only thing I can think

18 of that might be helpful is there are process

19 things that can be done. DOE announced today

20 that 15 contractors are being investigated for

21 yada yada yada without naming them. 

22 But I certainly don't have an answer
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1 and am just trying to sharpen the query a bit to

2 balance everybody's responsibilities.

3 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I hear

4 everything you're saying, Harvey, I really do. 

5 It's all very valid concerns.

6 MR. BALLO: So, this is Tim with

7 Earthjustice. And I guess I have a question for

8 you, Doug.

9 I'm wondering the way in which you're

10 conceiving of this if you do get a report of a

11 non-compliant installation. 

12 Do you think it's likely that the

13 Department's -- it's an isolated instance of non14 compliance. You have no further evidence that

15 there's a larger problem.

16 When you go to that installer do you

17 think it's likely that the Department would want

18 to take a look through records of additional

19 installations looking for a pattern that would

20 suggest they're a routine violator? 

21 Or are you really going after that one

22 instance and maybe if you get a second call on
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1 that contractor that's when you start looking or

2 a routine violation.

3 MR. RAWALD: What I would think is

4 that if somebody complains about a contractor or

5 dealer installing units improperly in their home,

6 I'm probably going to be more likely to want to

7 look at that particular contractor or dealer's

8 records to see if they have other installations

9 that meet that pattern.

10 MR. EISNER: Does anyone envision that

11 if you are identified as a routine violator you

12 should have a process for getting unidentified? 

13 Proving you've changed the error of your ways.

14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Well, this would be

15 Charlie with ACCA. And I think that that would

16 be part of this process.

17 I mean, you have the case where

18 there's the contractor who had somebody drop a

19 dime on them and it was just a disgruntled former

20 employee. And that's not one I'd like to see

21 show up on the list. I don't think that.

22 I think posting of that notice that
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1 this contractor has been accused of doesn't serve

2 anybody until this contractor has been found

3 guilty of.

4 There could be the case too where

5 you've got a contractor who recognizes the errors

6 of his ways, finds himself lost in the wilderness

7 without a manufacturer who will deal with them,

8 realizes that they've only got one real skill and

9 they want to get back.

10 So I think part of this may be a way

11 to get back in the good graces or remove this

12 sort of black mark on their record.

13 And then I also wanted to sort of go

14 back to something Harvey mentioned before Tim had

15 his question.

16 And that is if we set up a threshold

17 then let's just assume the threshold is three

18 violations in some way, that that defines

19 routine.

20 One thing that may occur is that if a

21 contractor is bumping up against that threshold. 

22 So, if it's three strikes and you're out, and
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1 there's a contractor who's sitting at two, he may

2 find himself in a precarious position with his

3 own manufacturers because they may just say,

4 look, you're too close. We want to just cut off

5 with you now. So we could be creating an

6 artificial threshold by creating a real

7 threshold. 

8 And I think I heard somebody mentioned

9 last week that the manufacturers, these are the

10 customers. They want to keep their dealers in

11 the fold because that's who sells their product. 

12 But these are things that we have to

13 think about when we get down to this type of

14 stuff.

15 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

16 Johnstone Supply.

17 I mean, I would have trouble setting

18 a number or understanding a number until I was

19 really clear on the violation side, right? That

20 would be number one.

21 For what it's worth I think that, you

22 know, Doug, you talked about you would -- on a
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1 single phone call that you would probably be

2 looking at that person.

3 What I would like to see possibly is

4 just a notice go out to that contractor right

5 away that they -- that the violation has been

6 reported, or an alleged violation has been

7 reported. And so at least they have some notice. 

8 Because, you know, there still could

9 be some people that are unaware. I mean, it's a

10 new contractor coming into the business, whatever

11 it may be. Maybe they just don't quite

12 understand it.

13 So I think that probably would go a

14 long ways to stop being 90 percent of any

15 violators is just a letter saying you've been

16 reported. Here's a reminder of what the standard

17 is would probably take care of almost most issues

18 on a report basis.

19 MR. RAWALD: Steve, this is Doug. So,

20 that type of warning notice is not unprecedented. 

21 So we do do warning notices for certain things I

22 discussed on the second day of our meeting here
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1 as part of our standard practice.

2 But what might happen, and I can't say

3 -- I want to talk about this with the people that

4 I would work with -- would be the warning notice

5 would be attached to our request for information. 

6 You know, that we'd say here's what

7 you should be doing. Please give us the

8 installation records for the last six months, or

9 a more cabined window, to see if that was a one10 time thing or if they've been doing it a lot.

11 And if they've been doing it a lot

12 then say, okay, well now you've got a little more

13 of a concern. So that's -- at least I think that

14 the Department might want to have the discretion

15 to do that, to have that be hand in hand. That

16 seems to be an appropriate investigative tactic. 

17 So, but I want to think about that some more.

18 MR. EISNER: Other comments?

19 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

20 Johnstone Supply.

21 And just whenever you enact that

22 process I do think that sell-through gray area
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1 that we're going to have for a number of months

2 is the appropriate time just to be sending out

3 those notices on violations because there is

4 going to be confusion. 

5 And some people may report people that

6 really aren't in violation, that they actually

7 are buying sell-through product.

8 MR. RAWALD: No, that's a valid point. 

9 I get that.

10 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

11 Ingersoll Rand. I mean, this is the second

12 meeting and the third pretty substantive

13 discussion we've had on the subject of what is a

14 violation, what is routine violation.

15 We've kind of said in each of these

16 instances, well, we're going to need to define

17 it. Getting to that point where, okay, when,

18 right? 

19 I mean, so I'd think it's just up to

20 us to decide. So, if this is really a critical

21 piece to come to agreement on that, do we try and

22 do that this afternoon? Do we try and do it
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1 tomorrow? 

2 I mean, we can't keep kicking it down

3 the road. I guess that's my view. So I'm open

4 to it being this afternoon or another time, but

5 some date and day certain seems good.

6 MR. EISNER: What's the consensus on

7 whether we should start with this after lunch? 

8 Or even now if you want to start now? Do you

9 want to get to this issue next?

10 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

11 ACCA.

12 I mean, I think we should blow this,

13 the rest of this page here. And I thought that

14 we had some issues from last week's agenda we

15 didn't get to.

16 MR. EISNER: That's correct.

17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: For example, I think

18 we wanted to talk about what is an effective

19 enforcement -- maybe we did or did not get to

20 that question of what is an effective enforcement

21 program. Yes, that was -- that was from Tuesday.

22 I'd like to get through everything and
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1 then double back and then hang the pieces kind of

2 together. That's how I was looking at this, but

3 I could be the only one thinking that.

4 MR. PORTER: Steve Porter, Johnstone

5 Supply. 

6 When you talk that we need to get

7 through effective enforcement, I don't think we

8 can get to effective enforcement, just my

9 opinion, until we understand the violation. So

10 to craft something to me would be difficult. 

11 MR. EISNER: My sense was that we were

12 starting to think that some of these issues that

13 we didn't complete such as effective enforcement

14 were -- had become part of this list for us to

15 resolve.

16 But even on this list we have put off

17 some of the items. For example, with the

18 whistleblower and the tear-off label we had

19 decided to delay. A couple of others we had

20 talked about, decided we needed to get more

21 information.

22 So again, we can decide how we want to
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1 go about this. If some are having trouble

2 answering even these questions because they don't

3 know what a violation is we could go to that

4 next, or we could finish this list and then start

5 to go into the details on all these things.

6 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

7 ACCA. I think the question about what's an

8 effective enforcement. I mean, the sense I got

9 from that question was what are we willing to

10 essentially allow to happen, knowing that

11 something is going to happen.

12 You know, is it 90 percent of all

13 illegal installations are caught? Is it 90

14 percent of all installations are legal?

15 And I guess that's what I was thinking

16 about. Because to me that sort of frames sort of

17 how relaxed or draconian we want to look.

18 And within that we can sort of throw

19 out certain things. If we want things -- if this

20 thing is going to be tight, tight tight, then

21 that's a whole different world than if this was

22 going to be a recognition that, yes, things will
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1 happen but let's get at the most we can.

2 MR. EISNER: If I understand you

3 you're saying what percentage would you have to

4 catch for it to be effective. That's a good

5 point.

6 I think the thought was that these are

7 the elements of what would be an effective

8 enforcement program. But nobody has focused on

9 will this achieve 90 percent or 80 percent, or

10 will we be at 98 percent before we do anything? 

11 Will 98 percent comply just because they will

12 comply?

13 And it is a complicated issue. If you

14 have a program where the mere sending out of a

15 notice of potential violation because somebody

16 has made a phone call and Doug is now asking for

17 records might, as I think Steve pointed out,

18 might cause somebody to say, all right, he's got

19 a notice out there. I can't use him anymore. 

20 That alone might make people

21 understand this is not a game where you want to

22 fool around. That label doesn't say 14 you can't
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1 sell it in the South. You can't install it in

2 the South. 

3 But that's where you have to come in

4 with your sense. I mean, Doug can put his

5 perspective in as I understand this. But you

6 also have to decide whether that one little step,

7 that he's going to send out a warning notice is

8 going to be so dangerous to the person who got

9 that notice that person's going to have to do

10 everything he or she can to avoid getting that

11 notice. 

12 That in itself would be very, very

13 effective enforcement. However, it could be very

14 draconian if somebody makes a simple mistake.

15 Thoughts on some of these comments?

16 MS. SHEPHERD: I agree with Steve that

17 I think we need to define these violations. And

18 so I think it depends on how much time you guys

19 need to caucus or to think about it before we can

20 have that topic.

21 But I also agree with Jordan that the

22 sooner we have that I think then we can -- we'll
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1 have an idea of exactly what we're talking about. 

2 We'll have a better sense of how to assess what's

3 routine. 

4 We'll have a better sense of how the

5 kind of information Doug's going to need in order

6 to prove that the activity occurred. So I really

7 think it's really important.

8 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts? You're

9 hungry? How about we take -- do we want to take

10 a longer lunch, come back, say, at 1:30? Would

11 that be enough time for people to have their

12 different caucuses and then start talking about

13 violation? Anybody disagree with that approach? 

14 All right, why don't we come back at

15 1:30. Everybody will have answers prepared.

16 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

17 went off the record at 11:53 a.m. and resumed at

18 1:34 p.m.)

19 MR. EISNER: Did I understand there's

20 a question about whether or not we need to break

21 a little early tonight because of a reception on

22 the Hill for staff members? And I thought there
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1 might have been some conversation over lunch. 

2 Anybody wants to raise it again? Anybody think

3 it's necessary to break early?

4 All right. Is that what everybody

5 would like to do, 4:45?

6 Okay. We wanted to start off by

7 discussing violation. And just to make sure, I

8 checked with Doug. And we just want to talk

9 about violation as I understand it as it's used

10 in the statute and incorporated into the

11 regulations when it talks about "routinely

12 violates."

13 So, anybody want to start off the

14 conversation by where they need help, or what

15 they need help on, or the kinds of things they'd

16 like to say? And the regulation that DOE would

17 issue about the word? All right. 

18 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So, this is Charlie

19 with ACCA.

20 In thinking about how this would work

21 this is obviously the part that talks about the

22 manufacturers. But it touches on the contractors
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1 and the distributors.

2 I don't know if I have the answer but

3 I have some questions that I think need to be

4 answered.

5 And one is what is the term for the

6 violations. In other words, is it violations

7 over a year, over five years, over a lifetime?

8 Are we looking at an absolute number

9 in terms of defining "knowingly" or is it a

10 ratio? For routinely. What is the due process

11 that we're looking at?

12 Because I think, and we've heard this

13 before, but is it -- are we looking at just one

14 violation, two violations get you to the

15 definition of "routine." 

16 Because routine is a trigger. Routine

17 is when you make the list I guess it is. And

18 that list is the one that the manufacturers are

19 looking at. And when someone shows up on that

20 list they're done. 

21 Well, maybe not. But that trigger

22 there has consequences to the contractor.
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1 And so how we get there, what defines

2 "routine" is going to be critical. 

3 Doug, I think we had a conversation,

4 and I don't know if it was on the record or not,

5 but it was about sort of the enforcement

6 discretion that you have in terms of a first

7 violation or an honest mistake type violation.

8 We've talked about ways of getting

9 back into the good graces, or removing this mark.

10 And I think the other thing is at what

11 point does public notice occur. And I know you

12 have a name and shame, and I think that that is

13 the right way to go. 

14 But when does name and shame occur? 

15 When the first violation occurs, or when the

16 third, or whatever the trigger number for routine

17 is. That's the other thing.

18 And that's, I don't know if we start

19 there or if people add their own ideas.

20 MR. EISNER: Anybody want to comment

21 on that? 

22 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. So, I
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1 just want to address the last point that Charlie

2 raised regarding the name and shame as he called

3 it. I will not take ownership of that term.

4 So, any action the Department takes

5 that where we actually put out notice of an

6 action we post publicly. 

7 So, if we were to adopt or to

8 recommend adoption of a process by which we would

9 have a finding of routine violation that would

10 rise to that level.

11 If we were to take an action against

12 a manufacturer for knowingly selling to a known

13 violator that would be a public action.

14 If we were to decide that we wanted to

15 adopt some sort of mechanism of assessing

16 penalties against a contractor for individual

17 installations which we have not discussed yet and

18 that action was to be done on an individual

19 basis. 

20 So if we were to consider possibly

21 charging a $200 maximum to an individual

22 contractor for knowing installation of a non-
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1 compliant product, that would be a public action. 

2 So, that's the things that would rise to the

3 level of being worthy of publicizing.

4 In our practice currently we don't

5 advertise investigations for a number of reasons

6 now. 

7 There have been occasions where we

8 have published investigations akin to the one

9 that Harvey talked about prior to our break where

10 DOE is currently investigating 15 contractors for

11 X. So we have risen to that level.

12 But typically from our point of view

13 we advertise things once the matter is resolved. 

14 For a number of reasons.

15 One, out of fairness because we want

16 to make sure that we have all the answers before

17 we go ahead and approach it.

18 Two, out of completeness. We want to

19 make sure we give complete and accurate

20 information to the public. 

21 And I think three, out of not

22 disclosing our hand. So we are investigating. 
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1 And so sometimes when you announce things

2 prematurely it may affect your ability to get

3 appropriate information in the course of an

4 investigation. 

5 You know, you may end up actually

6 thwarting your investigation by announcing things

7 too early. And so I think those are all

8 considerations that we have in kind of deciding

9 what would be public and what would not be

10 public.

11 So, that's kind of how I view that

12 writ large in response to your question.

13 MR. WHITE: So, this is Chuck White. 

14 So my question I guess, Doug, is for -- does DOE

15 have something in mind? Would they find it

16 helpful? Would it be aimed at so many times

17 becomes routine? 

18 Or does DOE want to consider case by

19 case the situation and someone who did it twice

20 in these circumstances it may be routine, but

21 someone else who did it five times in a different

22 set of circumstances may not. 
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1 Or would it be beneficial to have a

2 line in the sand, here's what constitutes or does

3 not constitute?

4 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. DOE in

5 its collective notion has nothing in mind. There

6 is no preconceived notion or preconceived

7 discussion of this topic.

8 I think it's fair to say I'm raising

9 it for the first time for a lot of people's

10 attention. I think it's very important that we

11 resolve it.

12 From past practice the preference is

13 always to have factors I think Neil discussed

14 early on in this conversation rather than bright

15 line rules. Because there are so many different

16 cases and it's very hard to apply bright-line

17 rules in a case-by-case analysis. 

18 And it also has impacts on how things

19 happen. So people look and say well, if the line

20 is three, I can do two and get away with it. So

21 you want to be very careful about what kind of

22 sense you're creating among the community of
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1 people you're regulating.

2 So, what I think is always a more

3 palatable practice from the Department's point of

4 view is establishing factors such as how many

5 were sold, how close in time, to how many people,

6 the size of the number of operations. 

7 So is the guy selling a thousand a

8 year and 10 percent of them are, so a ratio. So

9 there's a number of factors I think that are

10 maybe more palatable.

11 But I can't say the Department is

12 predisposed to either approach. I'm just

13 thinking from our past practice in other cases

14 that are analogous that a factorized approach may

15 be more palatable overall.

16 But I want to leave open to the group

17 kind of discussion. Because I think those

18 factors can somewhat create uncertainty. And so

19 people may want to have more defined numbers

20 because they're more comfortable with that. But

21 I think it's worth at least kind of discussing

22 the contours of that.
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1 So I think we're open, but that's my

2 thoughts on the level of palatability I guess,

3 Chuck.

4 MR. EISNER: Before we get too far

5 into what is routine, should we discuss what is a

6 violation? Let's keep it simple in the

7 beginning.

8 In order for there to be a violation

9 would you argue DOE has to make a finding that

10 the statute was violated? 

11 Or if you know without question that

12 the person has installed an illegal piece of

13 equipment in the South would that be a violation? 

14 Does DOE have to make a finding, or

15 can you have facts that would actually allow you

16 to know there was a violation?

17 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. I think,

18 Neil, you're actually packaging two questions

19 together. 

20 So, there's a question of what

21 constitutes a violation and there's a question of

22 what constitutes knowledge to the manufacturer.
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1 And so I want to draw everyone's

2 attention. If you can go back to the slide that

3 shows the -- so it sounds like what we were

4 talking about with Jordan earlier is

5 manufacturers do not want to feel like they have

6 to be the arbiter of "with knowledge" that the

7 entity routinely violates. That's the area of

8 concern.

9 And what may be a palatable kind of

10 middle ground here is that we could -- because

11 "knowingly" is defined. So the knowingly selling

12 a product to a distributor, that's defined as

13 knowledge or actual knowledge. Manufacturers

14 should know or do know who they're selling to.

15 The question is can we look at

16 knowledge and say that knowledge will be obtained

17 through either a finding by DOE or actual

18 knowledge on the part of the manufacturer. So

19 the manufacturer has knowledge. They are aware

20 of this guy's practice even though DOE hasn't

21 found it.

22 So, we could talk about possibly
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1 defining it that way and that might be a

2 palatable middle ground between what Jordan and I

3 have been discussing over the past couple of

4 weeks. He's nodding his head yes so that's an

5 idea of worthy of discussion at least. 

6 MR. EISNER: That's what I was getting

7 at, I was trying to say. Is it a violation

8 before DOE has found cause for penalizing a

9 company? If does doesn't say anything, do

10 anything, is it a violation? 

11 You're thinking in terms of what

12 Congress intended as opposed to it's simply a

13 violation if they illegally install it. And then

14 we get into the question do you know that. 

15 But is that a violation before DOE

16 finds it to be one, or not? Would anybody make

17 that argument that DOE has to make a finding

18 first?

19 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan. I think

20 -- I would like to find some middle ground

21 approach and I think there is one.

22 My concern would be if we were to sort
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1 of play out how this could actually work. 

2 So if we as a manufacturer come into

3 possession of knowledge and we are fairly certain

4 that a particular distributor is actually the one

5 that we think is potentially violating.

6 And I say distributor because of

7 course we're not actually selling to contractors.

8 So, we then make the decision that,

9 well, this is precarious at best. We then

10 decide, well, we're going to stop selling to

11 them.

12 My guess would be that whatever means

13 by which we came into possession of that

14 knowledge because it would not be something that

15 the Department would have disclosed as a matter

16 of the public record would not necessarily be

17 something that one of our competitors would know

18 about.

19 So now we have given up on that

20 distributor and one of our competitors moves in

21 and just takes that.

22 I don't think that really gets us
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1 where we want to be in terms of actually

2 increasing compliance.

3 So, that's why I believe there needs

4 to be effectively a heavy reliance on DOE

5 determinations here, at least insofar as it

6 governs legally what manufacturers are liable

7 for.

8 But I do believe that there needs to

9 be some sort of statement that knowledge would

10 include a manufacturer coming into possession of

11 that knowledge. 

12 Maybe that means you have to then

13 report on it in some capacity. But otherwise it

14 just gets into this game of saying, well, it was

15 the other guys who knew. I didn't know anything

16 and now I'm just selling to the same people. 

17 That doesn't get us anywhere.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this is Doug. 

19 And so I guess this does get us back to that

20 reporting kind of moral obligation we talked

21 about earlier.

22 And it seems to me that if you as a
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1 business decision decide you don't want to deal

2 with someone because you have knowledge that they

3 are routinely violating the standards, or at

4 least you feel you're pretty close to that

5 knowledge.

6 You, one, make your business decision

7 not to deal with them anymore, and then two,

8 notify the Department so the Department then

9 takes their steps so that no one else can deal

10 with them too, right? That would be the second

11 step you would want to take.

12 And then we would say, okay, well, it

13 seems like as soon as you became aware of it you

14 told us. So we would then want to essentially

15 try to consider whether we want to have some sort

16 of safe harbor for you at that point. Because

17 you are the one that's coming to us and saying

18 we've been aware of this, we're reporting it to

19 you and we don't want to deal with them anymore. 

20 So that's kind of I guess the nebulous

21 kind of area that we're looking to kind of get to

22 here. I think that makes the most sense at the
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1 moment as we're talking about this out loud.

2 Jordan is nodding his head in

3 agreement that that at least is someplace we can

4 discuss. 

5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

6 ACCA. Do we have to define installation and/or

7 an illegal installation?

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, do we have

9 to? There's no have to. Would it be prudent to

10 do so? It might be. Right?

11 So, if we're saying the violation is

12 the installation which has been what's bandied

13 about by some folks it would seem like we'd want

14 to define what installation actually means. Is

15 installation actually, you know, what is the

16 beginning and end of installation. Because while

17 it seems easy to define it could be more

18 complicated, right?

19 So, you tell me. I mean, is there

20 some area, some gray area there that needs to be

21 somewhat fleshed out in a definition?

22 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I don't know. This is
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1 Charlie again. I don't know the answer. And I

2 think that technically we're closing in on a

3 definition possibly with the guidance that we

4 expect to come out at some point. Because I

5 think that informs what an installation is.

6 I mean, in my shorthand I've been just

7 using wrong box, wrong state. But maybe you're

8 right, maybe we don't need to do that.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary for

10 the California IOUs. 

11 Aren't most of the rest of the federal

12 appliance standards focused on the sale of

13 products? 

14 And my question would be why in this

15 specific case are we talking about installation

16 versus sale.

17 So, I'm kind of seeing these two

18 things as synonymous. The installation

19 contractor probably sold it, or the entity that

20 sold it probably installs it.

21 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. So, we

22 don't use the word "sale", we use the word
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1 "distribution in commerce" because I guess

2 there's some more breadth to that term. So

3 that's the term we typically use.

4 But it is focused around manufacturers

5 being the person who then would distribute in

6 commerce the thing.

7 So, the question is, is there an

8 analogous provision? Because we are talking

9 about -- this is an installation requirement. 

10 So, would the sale of it to the individual fit

11 within the moniker of distribution in commerce,

12 or do we need to be -- have a different term.

13 But I do get what you're saying. 

14 Because is the act that's bad, is it the

15 contractor selling it to the person? Is that the

16 bad act right there so we have enough? Or do we

17 want to actually have them put it in the house

18 before we could say that he's done something bad.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, we've had the

20 discussion about whether the responsibility party

21 is the technician who installs it, or the

22 contracting firm who maybe sells it. And I would
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1 believe that it's the contracting firm that sells

2 it as a contrast to their employee or

3 subcontractor who installed it.

4 And I kind of like the idea of getting

5 back to the term you used which was, what,

6 participant in commerce or?

7 MR. RAWALD: Distribution in commerce.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Distribution in

9 commerce. So, I really think it's the entity

10 that sells it for the purpose of being installed

11 rather than the individual technician who may

12 install it.

13 MR. EISNER: Are you saying for the

14 purpose of being installed in the South?

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, anywhere. But

16 with regard to these regional standards,

17 particularly in one of those states deemed to

18 have higher standards than the rest of the

19 country.

20 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with

21 Rheem. I think it says that the effective date

22 of regional standards is based upon the date of
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1 installation. So to me it's not based upon the

2 date -- to me it's not a violation until it's

3 installed. Because that's when it's effective. 

4 Right?

5 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

6 Ingersoll Rand. I agree. I think we need what

7 we do here to sync up with that statutory

8 requirement which is based on date of

9 installation.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I don't think

11 the determination of the responsible party

12 necessarily has to be linked to the date of sale

13 or the date of installation. I think the

14 responsible party is whoever sold it. And the

15 corresponding date may well be the date of

16 installation. That's not a problem in my mind.

17 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

18 Ingersoll Rand. But then you have an act that

19 you cannot do which is different than the party

20 doing it. I think you absolutely need to have

21 the date of installation and installation be the

22 act. That's what it's predicated on. That's how
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1 it's based.

2 I mean, date of sale is, frankly, what

3 a national standard was. You know, we moved away

4 from that to a date of install. So I'm very much

5 of the opinion that we need to define "install"

6 and that that needs to be the basis for

7 determination of compliance.

8 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. From

9 a very practical point of view we bring our

10 actions against the corporate entity that's

11 responsible for what happened.

12 So, the installer technician, the

13 contractor's technician who installs it would --

14 the contract they would have as an agent or the

15 principal of that agent would have liability for

16 his actions under our theory. 

17 So we would bring the action against

18 the contractor regardless of whether it was based

19 upon the fact that the contractor sold it, or

20 that the contractor's technician installed it. 

21 So we would still find the contractor to be the

22 liable party.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. I think this

2 has been a useful discussion for me anyway. I

3 see Jordan's point of view and concur with you

4 all.

5 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan. So, one of

6 the things that we don't want is the unintended

7 consequences. And so we've already talked about

8 internet sales. And so the contractor that sells

9 it in that case is not generally speaking the

10 contractor that installs it.

11 So in this case, Doug, I guess I'm

12 looking for you, but the installer is the one --

13 the company, the entity that installs the product

14 is the one that is going to be held liable. 

15 So in internet sales, somebody in

16 Minnesota sells a unit into Dallas. John goes

17 and gets one of his buddies to install it. The

18 guy who installed it is the one who is liable. 

19 Not the guy who sold it in Minnesota.

20 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

21 Ingersoll Rand. I think what we're talking about

22 here is we're trying to clarify that installation
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1 is, in fact, one of the violations. Not that it

2 necessarily has to be the only one, right?

3 So, it could be that we would get to

4 the point where you say an internet retailer who

5 sold it to somebody for installation with

6 whatever, you know, direct knowledge that it was

7 going to be installed in the South, they're also

8 guilty of a violation. 

9 I would agree with that. But I think

10 we're just trying to get clarity on at least this

11 point.

12 MR. ROCKY: Well, and again. So this

13 is leading to other discussions and other points

14 coming up. 

15 But basically as Matt has already

16 talked about in a manufactured housing world is

17 the date of installation for the system when the

18 full system is actually complete in one location?

19 For instance, the outdoor unit is

20 located and installed at the location where the

21 home is placed, but the indoor side is placed in

22 the home and transported from the mobile home
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1 manufacturer. 

2 So, is the system now the point when

3 all components are put together, hooked up and

4 powered up? Because that's the point where

5 violation could occur, or would occur. 

6 And in a residential application again

7 you have townhomes, apartments, condominiums that

8 do the same thing. The indoor sides are applied,

9 put in place possibly months before the outdoor

10 units are hooked up. And in a complex of 500

11 apartments they may be installed but not turned

12 on for months. Weeks, usually. So where is the

13 point of installation that was the issue for the

14 contractor?

15 I'm not trying to throw things out

16 here, but we're talking broad terms.

17 MR. RAWALD: No, I think -- Bryan,

18 this is Doug. I think you're raising a valid

19 point that I have never discussed with anyone in

20 the Department regarding installations that are

21 not complete in one session. 

22 So that's something that we'll have to
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1 take back and talk about with others. Because I

2 think that you're raising a scenario which I

3 could see possibly going both over -- before and

4 after the compliance date, and also the before an

5 end of the grace period, right? 

6 So you could have a job that starts

7 before the compliance date. Looks like it's

8 going to be great, you know, it's going to be

9 compliant. And then they get delayed by some

10 sort of construction delay. And then suddenly

11 they're hooking up the condenser and turning it

12 on on January 2. Are they suddenly violative

13 when they had everything in place beforehand? Do

14 they have to change things around to make sure

15 they meet the standard? 

16 So that's an issue that we have not

17 discussed. And so I want to bring back to the

18 folks so that we can think about these things

19 some more.

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

21 ACCA. EPA struggled I think with this same thing

22 during the 2010 appliance rules. 
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1 And if it's helpful for you they did

2 allow for that exact situation whereby

3 essentially systems were installed but not turned

4 on. I think it was, what, a year? Was it 18

5 months? Of equipment manufactured before the

6 January 1, 2010 deadline.

7 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. So this

8 gets back to the question you asked earlier. Do

9 we need to define "installed"? 

10 And so, given what Bryan is saying, it

11 may be prudent to consider defining "installed"

12 so we're all clear as far as what the playing

13 field is here.

14 But let me go back and talk to people

15 tonight about this because it's something we

16 haven't talked about at all and come back to you

17 guys on that.

18 MR. GIBBONS: So, Doug, John again. 

19 One of the things you've got to think about is

20 when that -- and I'm thinking single-family large

21 builders, they usually have an AHRI certificate

22 pulled when they start the HVAC process. 
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1 So that certificate may be to your

2 point. You know, the furnace goes in. Obviously

3 they dry the drywall in December and they don't

4 put the outdoor in until January. They have the

5 certificate says it was 13 SEER in Atlanta,

6 Georgia, for example. 

7 So you've got to think about the sale

8 side too, or the letting -- permitting side.

9 MR. RAWALD: No, John, I get that. 

10 And so it's really interesting because it's

11 something different if you plan for the job to

12 straddle the hurdle, but construction as we all

13 know always has delays. And so that's a unique

14 tweak on the scenario that we haven't discussed

15 and I do want to think about some more.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So,

17 when a building permit is not pulled how are we

18 going to know that the reported date of

19 installation is, in fact, the date of

20 installation? You know, what's to stop somebody

21 from backdating?

22 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with
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1 Ingersoll Rand. I think that's a fair point, but

2 it's no more or less true for new construction or

3 when building permits are being pulled than any

4 other time ultimately.

5 But I would think just like any -- I

6 mean, what we're really talking about is somebody

7 phonying up records. And people do that to cover

8 up crimes all the time. Hopefully an

9 investigative process is able to work through

10 that.

11 I mean, but what we're really saying

12 is, is somebody going to be doing that on every

13 single job in the event that they get called to

14 task. That strikes me as possible but unlikely.

15 MR. GIBBONS: This is John again. I

16 think I answered my own question after I thought

17 about. 

18 We have the grace period. So the

19 transition between now and, what, June 30, 2016

20 kind of takes care of that.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, the problem that

22 comes to my mind with the building permit is
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1 oftentimes the energy efficiency requirement that

2 is imposed will be interpreted by the local

3 enforcement jurisdiction, the building department

4 to go back to when the original permit was

5 pulled.

6 So if someone's building a condo

7 complex. They pull the foundation permit. The

8 building isn't completed until five years later. 

9 Well, instead of needing to comply with the

10 current code they're only expected to comply with

11 the code that was in effect five years previous.

12 So it seems to me the same issue could

13 arise around installation date. I don't know the

14 answer to this question, but it's certainly a

15 good question to raise.

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I'm

17 actually hearing a couple of different issues.

18 One of them is, what is installation? 

19 The second one is, what exceptions do we need to

20 make for special classes such as mobile homes? 

21 And the third is, what do we mean by "date of

22 installation?" What's enforceable?
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1 I'd offer the following language or

2 something like it for what is installation.

3 Given that we've adopted a condensing

4 unit-centered definition of what a compliant or

5 non-compliant product is it seems to me to be

6 relatively straightforward to start out with

7 installation means the connection -- placement --

8 no, the connection of the refrigerant, of

9 electrical lines for a split system and the

10 commissioning of the operating system.

11 MR. EISNER: What does commissioning

12 mean?

13 MR. SACHS: Making sure it works

14 right. It's honored more in the breach than the

15 discharge of the duty.

16 MR. EISNER: What do people think of

17 this?

18 MR. ROCKY: So, actually I had a

19 counter proposal to what Harvey just said that I

20 was thinking about at lunchtime.

21 You know, again, we had the discussion

22 of violation. Violation is the installation of
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1 any system that is non-compliant with regional

2 and energy efficiency standards applicable to the

3 product.

4 Installation means the startup and

5 first use of the system in a residential

6 application. 

7 MR. EISNER: And would you mean first

8 use for --

9 MR. ROCKY: If you start it up and you

10 start using it to heat or cool your home you are

11 now installed and using.

12 MR. EISNER: So that's an act by the

13 homeowner as opposed to the last act by the

14 "installer."

15 MR. ROCKY: The installer is going to

16 conduct a startup procedure and turn on the

17 system to make sure it's operating correctly

18 before he walks away. It may not be a full

19 detailed commissioning process but I think

20 Charlie and Chuck would say most contractors at

21 least turn it on to see if it's going to power up

22 and work. To me that's a startup and first use.
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1 MR. EISNER: So then the last act by

2 the installer. 

3 MR. ROCKY: Turn it on and see if it

4 turns on and works.

5 MR. EISNER: And that's what would be

6 essentially the definition, the last act.

7 MR. ROCKY: That's a proposal.

8 MR. EISNER: What do people think of

9 these two different interpretations?

10 MR. SACHS: I'm happy with that except

11 as we've already heard I think there's some

12 ambiguity about first use. And I wonder if we

13 could find a term that indicates that this is

14 what the contractor does. 

15 I used "commissioning" and that also

16 has some formal meaning that we may want to

17 reject. 

18 But since common understanding might

19 take "first use" as the residents rather than the

20 contractors I'm a little concerned about that

21 term. Otherwise I love your language.

22 MS. MEYERS: Doug, this is Karen with
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1 Rheem. It seems to me that installation is

2 defined somewhere in some reg. Maybe it's EPA,

3 but I thought it was DOE. And I thought it was

4 something about when power is applied to the

5 unit, or something like that. But -- it's EPA?

6 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

7 ACCA. I think that's what they were looking at

8 in the R22 on the equipment ban. 

9 So in order to beat the equipment ban

10 for installation they -- I think it was when the

11 loop was sealed or something like that -- and

12 these are the technical terms I don't get --

13 powered up and ready for use.

14 I've been trying to find it. I can't

15 find the exact language on my phone but I'm going

16 to keep looking.

17 MR. RAWALD: So, Karen, luckily we

18 have two lawyers here now to assist. So they may

19 leave quickly because they don't want to answer

20 any questions.

21 So, the -- we'll look at that. I

22 mean, my preference would be of course if there's
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1 already a term that's used in the industry that

2 you're familiar with from another government

3 agency to stick with that unless we thought it

4 was unworkable for some reason.

5 MS. MEYERS: No, I absolutely would

6 like to stay consistent if possible.

7 MR. RAWALD: Right. No, I get that. 

8 And so it makes it so it works across the board. 

9 So we'll look into that and come back on that

10 issue.

11 So we have a proposed definition from

12 Bryan and from Harvey, but Harvey seems to be

13 acquiescing to Bryan's definition as long as we

14 can add an agent of some sort to who's doing the

15 first startup.

16 And the possibility of adopting an EPA

17 definition, but we'll take a look for it and see

18 if we can come back to that.

19 So that's going to answer the

20 installation question at least, you know, what

21 does that mean.

22 And so the bigger question which Bryan
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1 focused us in on was that he defined a violation

2 to be an installation of a unit. 

3 Which from the point of view from a

4 contractor and a dealer at least seeming on its

5 face to make sense. 

6 But we still have the question of what

7 are violations regarding a distributor. And so

8 we had some language put forward by Amy before

9 the break as to what a violation would be from a

10 distributor.

11 And I don't know if we want to turn to

12 that, or if we still want to look at what other

13 possible things might constitute a violation from

14 the contractor and dealer point of view.

15 MS. SHEPHERD: Maybe we should look at

16 what you said, what the definition of "violation"

17 would be just in terms of installation.

18 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

19 MS. SHEPHERD: And see what we think

20 about that.

21 So we would need a violation which

22 would be -- what did you read? That you think it
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1 should be a person?

2 MR. ROCKY: The violation -- just,

3 again, trying to get it back to who is installing

4 the system is all I said. So, you know, a

5 violation is the installation of a system that is

6 non-compliant with regional energy efficient

7 standards applicable to the product.

8 MR. EISNER: Why do you need to add

9 the non-compliant in there? Why isn't it just

10 installation of the system with the regional --

11 with whatever equipment it's supposed to have

12 hooked up and commissioned or turned on.

13 MR. RAWALD: He's defining the term

14 "violation."

15 MR. EISNER: Hmm?

16 MR. RAWALD: He's defining the term

17 "violation." Violation. That's what he's

18 defining there. That's why he has the word "non19 compliant." 

20 MR. EISNER: Okay.

21 MS. SHEPHERD: It probably should be

22 the applicable. 
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1 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

2 Ingersoll Rand. This is a question going back to

3 something I think Tim raised in one of our

4 discussions of this point which is the sort of --

5 I think it was definitions of sort of the actors. 

6 And I think you talked about --

7 because we talked about -- it came up in the

8 subject of is it the contracting company or is it

9 the ultimate -- the actual individual who did the

10 install. And I think Tim was able to shed some

11 light on that based on existing definition. I

12 think it might have been a person or something

13 like that?

14 So I just want to make sure because

15 there is a big difference between a contracting

16 company versus an actual individual who did an

17 installation.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. Tim pointed us to

19 the definition in EPCA of a person which is

20 pretty broad.

21 MR. BALLO: So, this is Tim. I'm

22 wondering if it -- and I meant to look up the way
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1 the current regs are structured in terms of

2 whether they identify who can violate them. I

3 believe they typically do.

4 Whether it would be worth saying is a

5 violation -- it is a violation for a contractor

6 to install the system. And we already have a

7 definition for contractor already.

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, what Tim is

9 talking to I think is the prohibited acts which

10 is the way they're laid out in 6302. And it

11 always says a violation for this person, the

12 manufacturer, private labeler, to do the

13 following.

14 And so we could, if we want to make

15 this specific to the contractor and the dealer

16 say the violation is a violation if a contractor

17 or dealer does the following. 

18 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

19 Johnstone Supply. 

20 So, in the case where I see this

21 probably happening most often where installation

22 could be a problem on date would be apartments.
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1 We do have the sell-through period so

2 I think that lessens it dramatically. I do think

3 we're -- I do think we have this covered with

4 manufacturers knowingly because a lot of those

5 jobs go for bid, they're involved in the bid, bid

6 in location. I don't know if we need anything

7 more.

8 I think we're building something here

9 around an exception. And as we talked about

10 definition of installation it seems like we're

11 making this more and more complicated. 

12 And I'm just looking at it from the

13 education standpoint of how I'm going to explain

14 all this when I get back home. 

15 So you know, hopefully we don't get to

16 I have a house and it's on the border state but

17 the outdoor unit's in the region North, but the

18 indoor part of the house is being cooled in the

19 southern region because then I'm going to put a

20 gun to my head. 

21 (Laughter)

22 MR. RAWALD: Well, who would they pay
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1 taxes to?

2 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. The

3 question I have is in our number 2 there it's

4 only a violation if a contractor or a dealer does

5 the following.

6 So by that broad brush anybody that

7 installs equals a contractor or dealer if it's

8 some homeowner's buddy that hooks it up? Or a

9 fireman on the weekend?

10 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

11 Ingersoll Rand. I think when we define dealer12 contractor we shift it from the focus on how we

13 think of it to the actual act itself.

14 So, if you were that person, so the

15 firefighter doing it on the weekend, if you were

16 doing this you became a dealer-contractor for the

17 purposes of enforcement.

18 MR. WHITE: So if we've defined that

19 do we have to have that in there? I mean, the

20 violation is you put the unit in. Doesn't really

21 matter who did it.

22 Isn't the violation the installation
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1 of the system that's non-compliant?

2 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

3 Johnstone Supply. 

4 Yes, because I mean, apartment

5 building could also have -- or owner, or large

6 company could have people that work for them that

7 are going to do that. 

8 So, I mean it's not going to be where

9 they outsource it. It would be that entity

10 itself that can do it.

11 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. I'm

12 comfortable that I don't need the terms, the

13 actual actors to be in the violation. 

14 I think what Tim was applying would be

15 that we would start, number one, with what's now

16 in number 2. But I don't think it's necessary,

17 but it's something at least he wanted to put

18 forward to be consistent with the way we define

19 prohibited acts currently in the regulations or

20 in the statute.

21 But I don't think it's necessarily

22 necessary if folks have a problem with it.
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1 MR. BALLO: I just wasn't -- I don't

2 remember what our definition of "contractor" was. 

3 So is it possible that there could be someone who

4 installs a unit without ever becoming a

5 contractor under the way we've defined it?

6 MR. RAWALD: I think that's a good

7 question. And so we passed around our

8 definition. If we could pull it up again.

9 But it may be one of those things that

10 we defined it kind of in the abstract, but now

11 that we're kind of seeing what the meaning of the

12 definition is we may want to take another whack

13 at defining it to make sure we include everyone

14 we want.

15 So that may be a good practice as we

16 define -- as we think about this.

17 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd

18 from AHRI.

19 Doug, I have a question for you. So,

20 would the Department view the installation by a

21 contractor who works for a contracting company,

22 that's within the scope of that person's
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1 employment. Therefore the Department would have

2 the authority to go after the contracting

3 company? Does that take care of that? 

4 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. So I

5 don't have the Department's definitive answer on

6 that. 

7 It would be consistent with our

8 practice I can say fairly that we'd go after the

9 company based upon the principal and agency

10 relationship that would be established there. 

11 But I don't have a definitive answer for you so

12 I'll ask the question.

13 MR. EISNER: First of all, just for

14 clarity for me, unless we intended to handle it

15 otherwise the statute uses distributor,

16 contractor, dealer. 

17 Was there a reason why we just said

18 contractor or dealer here? Would we handle

19 distributor elsewhere?

20 MR. RAWALD: So, the reason why we had

21 contractor and dealer here is because this

22 particular action, the installation, is never
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1 done by the distributor. 

2 So Tim's point was this violation

3 number 1 is one that would be endemic to the

4 contractor or dealer, what they do in their daily

5 workplace.

6 MR. EISNER: So, how can under the

7 statute a distributor ever routinely violate?

8 MR. RAWALD: That's the question I

9 posed to the group earlier. And so that's the

10 one Amy suggested a violation in the distribution

11 we'd go back and think about over lunch and

12 possibly come back with an answer for us.

13 MR. EISNER: So, you've got an answer

14 for us now?

15 MR. RAWALD: It's Steve Porter and Jon

16 Melchi you need to look at.

17 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. That

18 kind of leads to when we were having our

19 discussion about, was it "introduces into

20 commerce?" Is that what the phrase is?

21 MR. RAWALD: Distribution in commerce.

22 MR. WHITE: Distribution in commerce. 
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1 The contractor is not necessarily -- certainly

2 would be if he is the guy that installed it he's

3 part of that. But there can be additional people

4 in that chain who knowingly collude, or

5 cooperate, or however that might be that the

6 point of the violation is the thing was

7 installed. So that's how we know the violation. 

8 But the law is distribution in

9 commerce. So we know it's distributed in

10 commerce because it was installed. So we can

11 hang our hat on that. 

12 But everybody that was involved in the

13 distribution in commerce is now subject to

14 question about what did you know when. So it's -

15 -

16 MR. EISNER: When we looked at these

17 terms, and I thought it included distributor. I

18 thought at one time we said that the distributor,

19 the contractor and the dealer could perform any

20 of the functions in the chain. 

21 So I thought there was some feeling

22 that the distributor could be involved in
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1 installation if as part of the job as a

2 distributor they also did installation work. But

3 I may have recalled that incorrectly.

4 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White again. 

5 The installation is what triggers it, but it's

6 the distribution in commerce. 

7 And so it was installed so we know it

8 is somewhere. That's its final resting place. 

9 But the distribution in commerce is the whole

10 chain of events that got it to its resting place.

11 It's not the contractor bolted the

12 thing together in the back of his truck. So that

13 certainly if the contractor did the installation,

14 knew it shouldn't be there, certainly he has some

15 issues.

16 But if there's other people in that

17 chain that knew or should have known this was

18 going to happen they should have some scrutiny as

19 well.

20 So the violation, our violation of the

21 installation just gives us the marker that

22 something happened. But the thing that needs to
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1 be investigated is the chain of events because

2 it's the distribution in commerce that's illegal. 

3 Our violation is how we know that.

4 MR. RAWALD: So this is Doug. So,

5 some very lawyerly type language that I'm never a

6 huge fan of but it seems to kind of always

7 encompass this kind of situation would be using

8 something like "causing to be installed." So,

9 those parties whose actions cause to be installed

10 that thing.

11 And so then you could say, well, the

12 distributor who switched the Energy Guide label

13 so the thing went out when it shouldn't have to

14 the South, his actions helped cause that thing to

15 be installed. That's the violation. So, the

16 causing to be installed. 

17 So the contractor's having a

18 technician go out and put the thing in place when

19 it was non-compliant, he caused that to be

20 installed. 

21 So that's one area that we could

22 possibly consider using that kind of language
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1 which, once again, is very lawyerly and less

2 clear than I might like. But it's kind of broad

3 enough to kind of suck all those people in with

4 only one term.

5 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan. I think

6 we were moving to what are some of the other

7 violations. And I would tend to agree that there

8 are other violations we need to talk about.

9 But to maybe just try and get some

10 final clarity on the installation. Back to our

11 definitions. We had definitions of dealer, of

12 contractor and of installer. And the installer

13 is the person that installs. 

14 So, if we have an installation to be

15 defined and an installer that would seem to --

16 yes, installer would include people who are truly

17 a contractor by trade and anybody else who does

18 it. So it seems to me that would -- pegging the

19 installation to you are an installer if you did

20 the installation. Seems easy. Maybe too easy.

21 MR. EISNER: Any further thoughts or

22 suggestions?
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1 MR. RAWALD: So I'm hearing both from

2 Charlie who did some quick internet research as

3 well as the lawyers who have looked around that

4 they have not been able to find any installation

5 definition from EPA. So that right now is a dead

6 end but we'll keep looking at that.

7 So, just getting back to what I was

8 proposing was -- because we're dancing around the

9 idea of what would be a distributor violation.

10 So my thought would be that if we

11 could use language like "causing to be" that may

12 be broad enough to kind of encompass all the

13 actions that would be in any way leading to the

14 ultimate bad act which is the installation of the

15 bad system.

16 So, rather than trying to think

17 through every variable violation we could have

18 that would constitute at the end of the day an

19 installation of a system that was non-compliant. 

20 We could possibly do it that way though I'm open

21 to different approaches. 

22 And John Hurst is standing up there
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1 with some ideas, I'm sure.

2 MR. HURST: No, not an idea, just to

3 add a little more confusion.

4 We also need to handle retailers. So,

5 if you think of a big box retailer. The contract

6 is between the homeowner and the big box

7 retailer, not the contractor or the installer. 

8 So we need to make some accommodation for that as

9 well.

10 MR. RAWALD: And John, this is Doug. 

11 So, the reason why I've been focusing on these

12 three parties is because they are the ones

13 specified in the statute for this particular

14 provision.

15 But I do understand what you're saying

16 as far as they have a role to play here and we

17 have to think about that some more.

18 MR. HURST: Well, and I think the

19 value proposition for the consumer going to a big

20 box retailer is the brand and the backing of the

21 big box retailer.

22 So I don't know how you want to handle
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1 it. I just -- if we're going to do it, let's do

2 it right the first time.

3 MR. BALLO: So, this is Tim. In

4 thinking about what a distributor could do that

5 would be a violation I'm having a hard time

6 coming up with something other than just

7 distributing -- it's sort of following what the

8 statute says, distributing a model down the chain

9 that -- where they should know that it's going to

10 be ultimately installed in violation of a

11 regional standard. 

12 You brought up the example of

13 switching the label, but that's an independent

14 violation already under the statute. So I don't

15 think we need to cover something like that.

16 MR. EISNER: So you're saying the

17 reverse of that would be that you could never

18 violate this provision if you sold all your

19 products through a distributor?

20 MR. BALLO: Well, what I was saying is

21 if you're a distributor the only liability I

22 think you would have is if you sold a product
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1 where you knew or had reason to believe, or you

2 know, judged on a reasonability standard that it

3 was going to be ultimately installed in violation

4 of a regional standard. 

5 MR. RAWALD: So this is Doug. So,

6 we're using some very loaded terminology and I

7 want to be really clear.

8 So this is the prohibited acts for

9 manufacturers. So we're not clearing up an

10 independent prohibited act for distributors. 

11 What we're saying is the prohibited

12 act is the knowing or knowingly selling to the

13 guys who committed a violation.

14 And so that violation could be under

15 the prohibited act. So, you know, doing anything

16 that's otherwise prohibited for that entity to do

17 could be a violation if it fits within the ambit

18 of the regional standard.

19 So, we're not trying to define a

20 prohibited act for distributors for this process. 

21 We're simply trying to look at what would be the

22 violation the distributor would be routinely
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1 engaged in that the manufacturer would be held

2 responsible for knowing sales to him if he was

3 doing those things.

4 MR. BALLO: Why aren't we trying to

5 define a prohibited act for distributors? Why

6 would the manufacturer be responsible for this

7 sale that is going down the chain for an improper

8 installation, but not the distributor?

9 MR. RAWALD: So, Tim, what I've given

10 you is the statutory text. We have that Congress

11 gave us a statute that says, hey, it's a

12 prohibited act for manufacturers to knowingly

13 sell to distributors, dealers and contractors who

14 routinely violate the regional standards. So

15 we're trying to define the contours of that.

16 So it's a prohibited act regarding

17 manufacturers. But it has consequences for

18 everybody else because there's some sort of

19 labeling that's going to be attached to them in

20 that finding.

21 And so the violation is not limited,

22 or is not defining itself a prohibited act. It's
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1 simply defining the violation in the context of

2 that prohibited act.

3 So they're two separate questions in

4 my opinion. And I don't think there's any

5 consensus of the group that we're going to define

6 a prohibited act. Though it's been discussed

7 there's no consensus of the group that we're

8 going to define prohibited acts per se for

9 anyone. And I don't want to muddy those waters

10 together. I think they're two separate

11 questions.

12 I'm not saying we won't, Tim. I'm not

13 saying we won't get there. I'm not foreclosing

14 you from bringing this up. I'm just letting you

15 know that I think we're talking about something

16 slightly different. 

17 So, the fact that the labeling example

18 per se is something that would be covered by an

19 FTC violation, that still could -- or a

20 prohibited act under the FTC. Excuse me, I'm

21 using the wrong language now.

22 That could still be constituting a
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1 violation of the routine regional standards if we

2 felt that way. So we need to look at what we're

3 trying to say.

4 So manufacturers have notice on, okay,

5 what kind of conduct do we need to be aware that

6 the people downstream are doing that's going to

7 get us in trouble for them doing it if we're

8 dealing with them.

9 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd

10 from AHRI.

11 So, what if as I suggested slightly

12 before the break the liability that the

13 manufacturers would be responsible for in terms

14 of the conduct of the distributors was that

15 distributors cannot distribute in commerce any

16 new covered product which is not in conformity

17 with an applicable energy -- I'm sorry, I'm on

18 the wrong section.

19 That distributors I guess -- or it

20 could be realtors -- will not knowingly sell a

21 product to a contractor or installer with

22 knowledge that the contractor or installer
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1 violates any applicable regional standard.

2 So we know we have guidance from DOE

3 that distributors are not going to be subject to

4 civil penalties which means -- and Doug, correct

5 me if I'm wrong -- this would be injunctive

6 relief only that the Department would seek.

7 Are you making a face? That's not

8 true? 

9 So, that's just my thought. Because

10 if that is in fact really what the consequence

11 is, it's saying the Department is going to stop

12 you from distributing products to contractors

13 that are violating the regional standards I'm not

14 really sure what's being lost.

15 Because the flip side of that is

16 saying that distributors could do that which

17 doesn't really make any sense.

18 MR. EISNER: But under this statutory

19 provision it looks like the only party that can

20 violate that section are manufacturer or private

21 labelers.

22 MS. SHEPHERD: I understand that.
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1 MR. EISNER: You're talking about

2 something completely different.

3 MS. SHEPHERD: A parallel provision,

4 yes. And because of what came out of the

5 settlement there are not going to be civil

6 penalties on that. It would be injunctive

7 relief. 

8 So that means the action that DOE

9 would take would say stop doing that. Which is

10 stop selling to people that we know are violating

11 the regional standards by installing product that

12 doesn't comply with them.

13 MR. RAWALD: So Amy put a lot of stuff

14 into a quick package that we need to respond to.

15 So, what Amy is putting forward is

16 something I think that probably makes Tim's ears

17 perk up because she's describing a separate

18 prohibited act for which we would not be able to

19 assess civil penalties in her analysis.

20 And I said earlier that we do have

21 this policy statement. But I have discussed

22 further with the lawyers. 
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1 And so while we have that policy

2 statement, if we were to come to an accord and

3 through notice and comment rulemaking we were to

4 decide that there would be some sort of need for

5 that we could of course change direction on that

6 through a proper notice and comment rulemaking. 

7 So, policy statements are not

8 ironclad. So there's more to be talked about. 

9 And if Dan wants to jump in here

10 because he feels like I'm flubbing it certainly

11 he could. But I think I've got that pretty much

12 down where we are. So, that is open for

13 discussion. 

14 The point though to me is that what we

15 need -- we need to really wrestle with head on is

16 this manufacturer violation, or manufacturer

17 prohibited act. Now I'm mixing my terms again

18 because I'm getting confused by what I'm saying

19 here.

20 So, the prohibited act regarding

21 manufacturers is the knowing sales to these folks

22 who are violating routinely the statute or the
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1 standards. 

2 So, let's stick with that and not

3 diverge to other prohibited acts that we could

4 create. But let's look at that.

5 So what would be a violation of the

6 regional standards by a distributor? How would

7 they be violative of that? 

8 And it sounds like Amy was suggesting

9 before that it would be knowing sales to someone

10 else who you know routinely violates.

11 So, the only concern I have with that

12 is it does at least avoid the notion of, hey, I

13 know I have a contractor that routinely complies

14 with the standards, but I'm going to go ahead and

15 I'm going to give him the wrong thing and he just

16 trusts me so he's going to put it in place.

17 So if it's the distributor who's

18 trying to get out ahead and make a couple of

19 dollars -- I mean, I know, Steve, this doesn't

20 happen -- but if there is a distributor that did

21 do that I want to make sure that we're saying,

22 hey, there's no way the distributor can be the
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1 one who's sending out the wrong thing. 

2 We want to make sure that that's a

3 violation of them putting the wrong thing in the

4 hands of the installer to then be installed. If

5 the installer is completely devoid of any actual

6 intelligence of the issue the distributor can be

7 held -- at least, the person who routinely

8 violated the standard in some way.

9 That's kind of where I'm thinking. 

10 This is -- I want to think about it more with you

11 folks. I want to really understand this better.

12 MR. PORTER: Doug, Steve Porter,

13 Johnstone Supply. 

14 I mean, yes, do we want to carry twice

15 the inventory for the same sale? That's really

16 not a motivator for us at all.

17 I think the -- I think it is all

18 handled somewhat in your manufacturer statement

19 that -- where they knowingly sell a distributor,

20 contractor. 

21 Because there's folks in this room

22 that sell direct to contractors today that are
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1 distributors, and have entities, and have

2 distribution models that support that. 

3 And there's those that just sell

4 independent. Which again I appreciate.

5 But I think the fact that they hold

6 the power of the contract with the distributor

7 for the rights to sell that product is the trump

8 card.

9 If you put in there that they

10 knowingly sell distribution or contractors,

11 that's self-policing right there. Because if

12 that contractor was coming -- being sold through

13 that distributor that find in violation, and you

14 work your way up the food chain back to -- and go

15 look, you've had five of your distributors now

16 that we find are in violation all the time. 

17 You're not doing a very good job of vetting your

18 distribution model, right? And they have the

19 power to control that. 

20 I think where it falls short is if

21 everybody's in communication about that that

22 somebody doesn't come in on the backside and sell
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1 to them. Just as I would have concerns about

2 somebody coming in and I can't sell to the

3 contractor, but now he just goes down the street

4 and buys from somebody else. 

5 But the process with the manufacturer

6 to the distributor is where you're going to see

7 it. You'll see the chain when it all happens,

8 when the violation happens. 

9 That's up to the manufacturer. Do

10 they want to keep selling to somebody that's

11 going to continually violate to make them look

12 bad? 

13 I mean, to me it's right there. He

14 doesn't need to go any further than where you

15 have it.

16 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd

17 from AHRI.

18 I think the problem is though the way

19 it's written it says that if a manufacturer

20 knowingly sells a product to a distributor,

21 contractor, or dealer with knowledge that the

22 entity routinely violates any regional standard.
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1 So, if the only violation that we've

2 found of a regional standard is the installation

3 then that means the distributor would never

4 violate the regional standard.

5 Which actually, you know, probably

6 from a manufacturer's standpoint that would be

7 fine because that would take that piece out of

8 that -- this enforcement provision.

9 But I don't think, and Doug, correct

10 me if I'm wrong, that DOE is going to go for

11 that.

12 MR. RAWALD: I don't think so either.

13 MS. SHEPHERD: So, I think we come

14 back to the other conversation we have is that if

15 we just leave that undefined DOE is not just

16 going to leave it undefined. They're going to

17 define it for us. So I think that's where we

18 are.

19 Because otherwise it just, it takes

20 that out of the statute because there's nothing

21 for them to enforce.

22 MR. RAWALD: So I guess the question
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1 is really to Steve and Jon. If you guys over

2 lunch had time to talk to some folks and see if

3 it was palatable to your folks you represent to

4 have a distributor violation defined in some way

5 akin to what Amy offered or a different

6 alternative.

7 MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with HARDI. 

8 I think we were still waiting to hear back from a

9 larger group of folks.

10 MR. RAWALD: And that's a fair

11 response, Jon. We're not trying to press you to

12 have an immediate answer. And I told the group

13 last week we can be patient with that kind of

14 thing. So, if you guys need more time, you need

15 more time. So that's just -- we'll table that.

16 MR. MELCHI: Yes, I think what we'd be

17 interested in getting some clarification on is

18 your statement earlier about deviating from --

19 MR. RAWALD: The policy statement?

20 MR. MELCHI: -- the policy statement.

21 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I'm sure that caught

22 your ear.
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1 So, what I want to make clear is, and

2 Tim called me on this earlier on about how this

3 doesn't seem fair because it's rulemaking.

4 So, policy statements can be

5 superseded by notice and comment rulemaking which

6 is what we're looking at here.

7 So if the consensus of the group was,

8 hey, okay, this is where we have to go, and the

9 notice and comment rulemaking was executed

10 properly the policy statement could be superseded

11 by a rule taken in accordance with notice and

12 comment rulemaking.

13 Once again I'm turning to Dan Cohen

14 because he's much smarter with this stuff than I

15 am to make sure I'm saying this correctly. He's

16 saying he agrees with me. So that's where we

17 are.

18 So I'm not saying we are, or that we

19 will, or that we must. I'm just saying that's --

20 I want to be very clear about the legal

21 parameters here because I don't want people

22 operating on the wrong legal advice that I may
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1 have given. So I want to make sure that we're

2 all clear what the parameters are.

3 MR. EISNER: If we could go back to

4 installation and the people like the distributors

5 and Doug could use some similar language.

6 If a violation was defined as a

7 violation is the installation of, or the sale or

8 distribution to someone who intends to install a

9 system that is non-compliant would that take care

10 of some of the problems?

11 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

12 Johnstone Supply. I mean, intends?

13 MR. EISNER: Doug used another term

14 earlier. I forget what the phrase was that you

15 used.

16 MR. PORTER: I think we talked about

17 this earlier, Neil. I mean, where, you know, I

18 may sell a piece of that system. So I may not

19 sell it all. So, he may buy one piece of it from

20 me and another piece from somebody else in town. 

21 So we wouldn't have any way to know. So, his

22 intent.
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1 MR. EISNER: If you didn't have any

2 way to know you wouldn't be in violation. But if

3 you knew it was going to be used, installed in a

4 place where it shouldn't be installed, and you

5 distributed to that person knowing that. Again,

6 part of it is trying to figure out what Congress

7 --

8 MR. PORTER: I'd be interested in

9 reviewing any language about the way that you

10 stated intent, that the contractor has intent to

11 install it incorrectly.

12 MR. EISNER: I thought that was

13 stronger in the sense that the contractor says to

14 you I want to install this in Virginia. And it's

15 a 13 SEER product. 

16 MS. MEYERS: So let me see if I can

17 repeat what I think you said. This is Karen with

18 Rheem, sorry.

19 A violation is the intentional sale of

20 a system that is non-compliant with the

21 applicable regional efficiency standards.

22 MR. EISNER: Well, no. Again, I
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1 intended to --

2 MR. RAWALD: What I heard Neil say,

3 Karen, was a violation is the installation or

4 intended to install. So, it actually is on a

5 different --

6 MR. EISNER: Yes, it was a little bit

7 longer. I think I said something like a

8 violation is the installation --

9 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, sir. I'm

10 not picking up what you're saying.

11 MR. RAWALD: You need a microphone.

12 MR. EISNER: A violation is the

13 installation or sale or distribution intended for

14 installation of a system that is non-compliant. 

15 Something along those lines.

16 MR. RAWALD: And so this is Doug. So

17 I would definitely have to huddle with the

18 lawyers and talk more about whether we have the

19 authority to extend it to a system that's not

20 installed but merely intended to be installed. 

21 So we need to talk more about that.

22 MR. EISNER: It is the installation or
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1 sale or distribution to a party or whatever we

2 want to call them who intends to install a system

3 that is non-compliant. 

4 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd

5 with AHRI. I actually think it's much more

6 practical and you're probably better off with the

7 standard of knowledge that they routinely violate

8 because that's knowledge of a specific fact. 

9 I don't know how you'll ever prove --

10 I mean, you can't -- I think that's going to be

11 very difficult to get into the subjective intent

12 of a particular person.

13 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

14 Johnstone Supply. Yes, I think we get -- as

15 Jordan brought up before, I think once we get

16 away from installation as the violation as it's

17 written that it gets a lot more complicated. 

18 MR. EISNER: -- complicated then

19 you're writing distributor out. Someone might

20 have a problem with that. You're saying the

21 distributor can't violate this provision.

22 MS. MEYERS: Well, what I like about
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1 number 4 is how it covers the internet side of

2 things. I don't know that it's still correct,

3 but I like it because it really kind of covers

4 everyone within the chain, whether it's the, you

5 know, the online seller, or the fireman

6 installer, or whomever. But I don't know that we

7 have it correct. I think it deserves more

8 discussion. 

9 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey wearing my

10 very comfortable libertarian hat. And I share a

11 little bit of the disease or unease about the

12 term "intends to install" but I haven't figured

13 out a way around it.

14 MR. EISNER: Plans to install.

15 MR. SACHS: Well, if you were to

16 assume that prima facie evidence is that he's

17 shipping it to an address where its installation

18 would be non-compliant that to me is more

19 specific and more comfortable.

20 Intent, if I really were a Tea Party

21 type, would summon up images of IRS going after

22 NGOs and stuff like that. 
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1 So I'm just uncomfortable and wonder

2 if we can get something that's cleaner and more

3 specific. And the only thing I've thought of is

4 tied to this question of the location to which

5 it's shipped.

6 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt with

7 NORDYNE. Suppose we change it to say "that

8 installs a system that is non-compliant."

9 I mean, I realize it's after the fact

10 now. The violation is the installation of, or

11 sale, or distribution to a party that installs a

12 system that is non-compliant with the applicable

13 regional efficiency standards. 

14 MR. EISNER: The problem I see with

15 that is you didn't know. So why is the

16 distributor at fault? The distributor has to

17 know that it's being used to install a non18 compliant one.

19 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan with

20 Ingersoll Rand. I think we need to further

21 define this, but I would recommend separating out

22 these two. I think it becomes extremely complex
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1 to try and lump the two together. 

2 And I think they're actually --

3 assuming we get to a point where we have multiple

4 violations it would be easy I think for all of us

5 to go and say distributors, these are the

6 violations that apply to us. Manufacturers,

7 these are the violations that apply to us, and

8 for others as well. So I think if we could

9 separate it out it might be a little easier.

10 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd

11 with AHRI. What if it said a violation is the

12 installation, what we had before, an installation

13 of a system that is non-compliant with applicable

14 regional energy efficiency standards, or the sale

15 or distribution to a party with knowledge that

16 the -- to an installer with knowledge that the

17 installer routinely violates any regional

18 standard applicable to the product.

19 So I'm basically just pulling out that

20 last sentence of what manufacturers are

21 responsible for.

22 So what I'm trying to cover is the
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1 installation itself and sale to someone who

2 routinely installs things in violation of that

3 provision.

4 MR. EISNER: Could you repeat that?

5 MS. SHEPHERD: Probably not. Okay. 

6 So, a violation is the installation of a system

7 that is non-compliant with the applicable

8 regional efficiency standards or the sale -- what

9 did we have before -- I can't remember what we

10 had before. Oh, there we go. 

11 Or the sale or distribution to a party

12 with knowledge that the party routinely violates

13 any regional standard applicable to the product.

14 MR. EISNER: Isn't that just a

15 restatement of the statute?

16 MS. SHEPHERD: It's a restatement of

17 the last sentence of the statute that's

18 applicable to manufacturers.

19 So it would -- so what I'm thinking

20 with that is I am trying to make this as simple

21 as possible. That way when we're getting clarity

22 around what manufacturers can be doing in terms
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1 of knowledge and in terms of routine violations

2 we can just use those same standards for

3 distributors. 

4 So it would be consistent throughout

5 the parties that are in the product chain. 

6 Because I don't think we should have

7 something that's vastly different. But if

8 manufacturers are going to be held responsible

9 for sale to a distributor that's violating they

10 just, they have to know what that means.

11 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. There's

12 going to be a slight language problem from

13 enforcement for me which is going to be -- so

14 what we're going to say is it shall be unlawful

15 for any manufacturer of a private label to

16 knowingly sell or provide to a distributor with

17 knowledge that the distributor routinely --

18 knowingly sells to a party that routinely

19 violates any regional standards applicable to the

20 product.

21 So it's not just that they sold to the

22 person that they know was a routine violator, but
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1 they have to routinely sell to that person that

2 they know was routinely selling.

3 MS. SHEPHERD: Okay. I'm happy to

4 tweak and fix whatever. 

5 MR. RAWALD: Right, right, right. 

6 That's the one thing.

7 MS. SHEPHERD: The idea that I'm just

8 getting at is that it is simple. It's the basic

9 -- you can't install something and you can't sell

10 something knowing that people -- to people who

11 are routinely violating. 

12 And that's true whether you're a

13 manufacturer, it's true whether you're a

14 distributor, it's true whether you're on the

15 internet. I mean, if we can have kind of one

16 thing that would be communicated as what the

17 prohibited act was, it doesn't vary from where

18 you are, I think that is going to make an

19 effective enforcement plan.

20 MR. BALLO: Just to be clear though,

21 this wouldn't actually get at the internet sales

22 directly by going after the seller online. It
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1 would go after the person who sold it to the

2 internet seller. 

3 Because the internet seller isn't

4 selling the product to someone who routinely

5 violates the standard. They're presumably

6 selling it to someone who's just buying one, to

7 violate the standard one time.

8 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. So to

9 be hyper-technical you would be getting at the

10 manufacturer who sold to the person who sold to

11 the internet seller, right? So, I think that's

12 really -- it's a prohibited act regarding the

13 manufacturer, but it would have -- so that's what

14 we're really -- just keep that all in our sense

15 of scope.

16 MR. EISNER: It's almost time for a

17 break. Would it help for people to just caucus

18 about different variations of the language and

19 come back in 15 minutes? 

20 Since we have unanimous agreement

21 we'll take a break and come back in 15 minutes.

22 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter
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1 went off the record at 2:45 p.m. and resumed at

2 3:12 p.m.)

3 MR. EISNER: If we could get started. 

4 Does anybody have any suggestions they want to

5 put on the table?

6 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug. And I

7 just want to -- I was approached a couple of

8 times at the break about my steadfast devotion to

9 focusing on the prohibited act as described by

10 Congress.

11 And I want to dispel the notion that

12 I'm trying to focus all the weight on the

13 manufacturers, or that I'm trying to be resistant

14 to any other ideas.

15 What I'm really trying to do though is

16 we have a prohibited act that's been given to us

17 by Congress. We have this thing that we have to

18 deal with.

19 And I want to make sure that everybody

20 is comfortable with how that's defined in the

21 context of itself going forward because I don't

22 want anyone caught off guard if and when we start
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1 bringing in violations of this thing.

2 So I'm not trying to imply that

3 manufacturers need to carry all the weight here. 

4 What I'm trying to make sure we're

5 clear about is that we have a prohibited act

6 defined by the statute that calls out

7 manufacturers as having a certain responsibility,

8 but as I've described has implications for folks

9 downstream. And so I want to make sure that we

10 have this thing fleshed out to everyone's

11 satisfaction if at all possible.

12 There are other pieces to this. Folks

13 want to suggest other prohibited acts. Folks

14 want to possibly think about what else could be

15 unlawful.

16 When we're defining the term

17 "violation" it's within the context of this one

18 prohibited act. That's what we're talking about

19 is what would be for purposes of the

20 manufacturers being put on notice here the thing

21 that we're trying to say manufacturers should be

22 aware of. Hey, if this guy does it they're
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1 routinely violating this thing. And therefore

2 you should not deal with them or else you'll be

3 charged money by DOE. That's where I'm trying to

4 make sure we wrestle with this.

5 And I think it's very easy to pull on

6 other ideas. That's kind of why I'm trying to

7 focus us on. 

8 And if I'm doing that too much please

9 tell me. I'm just trying to make sure that we

10 stay focused on this one thing because I want to

11 make sure we have it clear so if and when I bring

12 an action based upon this in the future folks

13 understand where it's coming from and what it's

14 all about.

15 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd

16 from AHRI. Okay, but just to -- this is just to

17 clarify what you just said.

18 But it is DOE's view that however

19 "violation" is defined under this prohibited act

20 that you would have a separate basis for

21 enforcing that? Or no? Does that make sense? 

22 My question. 
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1 MR. RAWALD: Right. So you're asking

2 me if I think how we define "violation" would

3 then be a prohibited act separate and apart from

4 that.

5 MS. SHEPHERD: I am asking you that.

6 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I won't

7 commit to that.

8 MS. SHEPHERD: Okay.

9 MR. RAWALD: What I have said so far

10 is that DOE views our authority as expansive

11 enough to interpret the statute as we have it

12 before us to create additional prohibited acts if

13 necessary as this group it is advisable and want

14 to recommend that.

15 MS. SHEPHERD: But I do think it would

16 be helpful for us to kind of know which side of

17 that line we're on. 

18 Because I think that if we're just

19 clearly talking about that this is -- if this is

20 a situation we're talking about, okay, here's

21 where the manufacturer is liable and we've got to

22 define these things so the manufacturer knows
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1 that they're liable.

2 But parties, the other parties in the

3 chain are not going to have separate liability

4 for that. That gives them a level of comfort. 

5 That is an easier decision for them to make to

6 say okay, yes, that's fine.

7 For this purpose, for defining what

8 manufacturers are going to be liable for I can

9 live with that.

10 Versus when I say I can live with that

11 I'm signing onto a separate enforceable

12 commitment that that's what I'm going to have to

13 do.

14 So I think we do need to have some

15 clarity about what the Department's view is on

16 that in order for these discussions to kind of

17 really work.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. I can't give you

19 a definitive answer to that at the moment, Amy. 

20 I really can't. So I have to talk to people that

21 are smarter about these things and have more say22 so than I do on this matter.
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1 But what I can say is that what we're

2 trying to define is the act that if someone does

3 it routinely and the manufacturer is aware of

4 that routinely being done then the manufacturer

5 could be held liable.

6 So the question is, if that act is

7 done one time, that violation, will we hold the

8 entity who does that thing one time financially

9 responsible or through injunctive relief stop

10 them from doing it. And I can't answer that

11 particular question. 

12 MS. SHEPHERD: Ever? Or --

13 MR. RAWALD: No, no. Right for you on

14 the spot here right now.

15 MS. SHEPHERD: Okay, well that's

16 probably fair. But so is that something then

17 that you think we could get some feedback on

18 relatively shortly?

19 MR. RAWALD: I will try my best.

20 MS. SHEPHERD: Because I think that

21 would be a huge facilitator of where we're trying

22 to go with this.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Okay. I will try my

2 best. I will definitely try my best and see what

3 I can do there.

4 MR. EISNER: Let me ask, if we focus

5 as Doug said just on the statute for now we seem

6 to have agreed on a definition of "violation."

7 MS. MEYERS: We have five.

8 MR. EISNER: Well, I know. And we've

9 used it a few times. A violation is the

10 installation of a system -- look at number 5 --

11 that is non-compliant with applicable regional

12 efficiency standards period. That is a

13 violation. All right?There may be more that you

14 need to add to explain how it might apply to

15 somebody else in the scheme of things because

16 distributors don't seem to be involved in that. 

17 But that is the violation. 

18 Then the next thing you have to look

19 at is what is routine, and the third thing you

20 have to look at is what are the responsibilities

21 of the various parties.

22 MS. MEYERS: Neil, this is Karen. So,
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1 that definition is so disconnected from the

2 prohibited act that I am totally confused.

3 Because a manufacturer has nothing to

4 do with the installation in 9 times out of 10. 

5 But we're saying the violation is the

6 installation. But we're working back to this

7 prohibited act. 

8 And so I'm confused. I do not get how

9 these are working at all. And I think that's why

10 we're not getting a lot of forward progress in

11 this afternoon's discussion.

12 MR. EISNER: And then I'm suggesting

13 that if that is not -- if that is the violation

14 you then get into it in terms of the word

15 "knowledge." 

16 So if the manufacturer is selling to

17 a distributor, as I understand it, it might be

18 very hard to determine that. But if the

19 manufacturer is selling to a contractor or a

20 dealer would it be that hard for the manufacturer

21 to know that?

22 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen again. 
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1 I mean, I think the purpose is to come up with an

2 enforcement plan.

3 So, you have no enforcement plan

4 working on that definition and the prohibited

5 act. Because there would never be any knowledge

6 I guess is what I'm trying to say.

7 MR. RAWALD: Karen, if I hear what

8 you're saying, and this goes back to a point I

9 think you made two weeks ago, that the way the

10 prohibited act is structured and the way we're

11 looking at it now the manufacturer will never

12 have knowledge that the dealer or contractor

13 installed a non-compliant product. 

14 So it's a prohibited act with no

15 teeth. There will never actually be a way of

16 saying, well, you broke it, Manufacturer, because

17 you're -- you're never knowingly selling it to

18 someone that's routinely violating. That

19 interchange is not happening.

20 So, unless you're in the model where

21 you're a manufacturer-distributor and then you're

22 dealing with a dealer-contractor and you could
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1 have some knowledge there.

2 Is that a possibility? So like in the

3 Lennox case that John has volunteered numerous

4 times, he would be the only one kind of on the

5 hook for this compared to you who don't ever deal

6 with the distributor. 

7 So, now you're consoling him. Steve

8 Porter wants to talk.

9 MR. PORTER: Yes. This is Steve

10 Porter, Johnstone Supply. 

11 Yes, I agree. If you brought us, you

12 know, you -- as you said it's going to be more

13 reactive, right? You get reactive. 

14 And then that person rolls up and we

15 find that contractor in violation. And you come

16 out with a list that says violator. If you sell

17 them, you're going to be in violation.

18 That's something I can get my head

19 around because you've now just told me that's a

20 violating contractor and we wouldn't sell him. 

21 That's something I can get my head around.

22 MR. EISNER: Even if they don't tell
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1 you that they have evidence they violated it, if

2 the contractor or the installer said to you here

3 is what I'm going to do with that product. I'm

4 going to install them in Virginia. Would you --

5 and I've done it before, I've done it multiple

6 times before, don't worry about it. Would you

7 sell to that person? Under this statute if there

8 was no rule.

9 MR. PORTER: The difficulty as I

10 mentioned in being in the middle, and being that

11 I deal with -- my phone rings daily on rumors

12 that this contractor did this, this contractor

13 didn't put covers on condensing units in this

14 state or this town. 

15 And aren't you going to do -- you

16 know, that's how they got the job. They got the

17 job because they violated, you know. That's

18 something we deal with all the time.

19 We're not set up as a police

20 organization. I'm not set up to hear, you know,

21 somebody who picks up the product saying, yes,

22 we're running these up to Tennessee. Am I going
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1 to call and ask? 

2 Or he says it to the counter person. 

3 For example, I'll just give our organization. 

4 We're 3,300 employees. Where does that, you

5 know.

6 I mean, the difficulty I have, as DOE

7 regulates manufacturing which I think they're

8 really good at, and if they understand when it

9 leaves the dock it was a 12.8 and not 13, it's

10 really clear.

11 This is not as clear. So I mean, I

12 think for anything for us to get our heads around

13 or put language around, you know, we'll have to

14 come up with something that we can give you

15 that's really clear language that we would be

16 okay with. Because it's so kind of squishy. 

17 Not that -- everybody wants to do the

18 right thing. They really do. In fact, Jon made

19 the comment today as we were driving here. We

20 were sitting there, you know. What's really

21 interesting about the group is that everybody

22 wants to sell equipment. And everybody wants to
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1 sell the higher SEER and everybody wants to do

2 that thing in the room. 

3 That's why we are all here. We are

4 all the right ones in the room wanting to do the

5 right thing which is great. Advocates. We want

6 to do -- we want to sell up. We want to do all

7 those things.

8 And what we really keep coming back to

9 is these really exceptions, and building rules

10 around exceptions. 

11 You know, I think we have a pretty

12 good process in that you will have a website and

13 a whistleblower to start there and then work your

14 way up the channel, that we would have records. 

15 We would provide records. We'll agree to some

16 set time to maintain records, all of those

17 things.

18 But when it gets into this knowingly

19 did, tying up business for that time, that's

20 where it's difficult for me to get what that is

21 or have an understanding of that. Maybe I'm

22 confusing you right now.
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1 It's just difficult. It's not want. 

2 It's not any of those things. It's not somebody

3 told me. Probably going to hear most of the

4 stuff second, third, fourth-hand. And then am I

5 supposed to run that down every time I hear that? 

6 That would be really difficult to do.

7 MR. EISNER: Your points are well

8 made. It's easy to regulate a manufacturer. The

9 product shall have X on it. It comes off the

10 line, it doesn't have X on it, it's in violation.

11 This is a very difficult area to

12 regulate. The statute, however, is setting the

13 standard.

14 You guys have to come up with

15 something that is a reasonable interpretation of

16 that statute. 

17 You're suggesting the hard cases. I

18 wouldn't know -- I wouldn't have the ability to

19 check out every rumor. So I'm trying to give you

20 the easy ones.

21 If they came down with a decision that

22 this party had violated the requirement that you
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1 not put a 13 SEER in Virginia that would be a

2 public record. Whether they had any rule or

3 anything else that would be a public record that

4 this company you're selling to or you're dealing

5 with did it.

6 You could take a step back from there.

7 MR. PORTER: Correct.

8 MR. EISNER: The company comes in and

9 tells you that they've already installed it in a

10 number of places in Virginia. That's something

11 else that's very difficult for you to avoid.

12 It gets beyond that when you start to

13 hear rumors. That's why we talked about giving

14 them factors to consider --

15 MR. PORTER: And it gets beyond that

16 if it's an ex-employee. It gets beyond that even

17 though they work for that company. It gets

18 difficult even if it's their employee that drove

19 the truck over. 

20 I mean, and I send -- do I send a

21 salesman out to check to start questioning him? 

22 And then Chuck gets mad and takes all his
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1 business and moves it over to one of the

2 manufacturers that sells direct.

3 But --

4 (Laughter)

5 MR. PORTER: Anyway. You know, that's

6 the difficulty. We're not really set up to be a

7 police agency. So that's why I need it really

8 clear for us.

9 MR. RAWALD: Can I jump in real quick?

10 MR. PORTER: Maybe I'm not making a

11 good --

12 MR. RAWALD: No, as Neil said, I think

13 you're making some very good points. This is

14 Doug. And I think it's very helpful to hear

15 that.

16 We all want to make this simple

17 because goodness knows there are people that are

18 maybe a little less intelligent than us that are

19 going to be trying to understand this as well. 

20 And I want to make sure they understand it.

21 And I try to make it a purpose when I

22 do to make sure that the person who speaks
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1 English the worst and also has the least amount

2 of knowledge can understand what we're doing. 

3 Because that's -- I have to make sure

4 that everyone understands what's going on when

5 you're being enforced. It's very important that

6 they understand what's going on around them.

7 So, how about -- Amy's asking to look

8 at a very important thing. We seemingly at least

9 run into roadblocks because of that important

10 thing. 

11 If we could put this aside and maybe

12 turn to the issue that Tim has been pressing on

13 and Bryan has some ideas about on if we were to

14 think about other prohibited acts that we want to

15 create, what those would be.

16 And maybe that could help us better

17 understand kind of what folks are thinking at

18 large. Maybe that would be a more fruitful

19 discussion.

20 I don't know, do people feel like that

21 would be something we could turn to and possibly

22 look at a little bit? Would that help?
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1 Because I've been the one stopping

2 that discussion from taking place and maybe I

3 shouldn't be. So how about I get out of the way

4 and we talk about that a little bit. Seems to be

5 general nodding around the table.

6 And so Tim was kind of leading the

7 way, but I know Bryan has some ideas too. I

8 don't know if one of the two of you want to jump

9 in here with some thoughts. Tim seems to be

10 pointing towards Bryan. 

11 MR. ROCKY: All right. So this is

12 Bryan and I will state that I have not fully

13 explained this statement to the other

14 manufacturers, or Amy, or anybody else.

15 So, when you go back to the proscribed

16 act which we've talked about. I'm not going to

17 worry about trying to change any of that text. 

18 But I think there is an appropriate corollary for

19 distributors, retailers, resellers. 

20 So my proposal would be that what's in

21 there as currently becomes item 1 as a header

22 would be Manufacturer/Private Labeler.
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1 And then that same text as it is. And

2 then the second item would be for

3 retailer/reseller. I think that covers all of

4 our major concerns.

5 And you could, Laura, copy the same

6 text and I'll give you one or two edits to that. 

7 Trying to keep it consistent.

8 It shall be unlawful for any

9 distributor, retailer, or reseller to knowingly

10 sell a product to a contractor or dealer with

11 knowledge that that entity routinely violates any

12 regional standard applicable to the product.

13 So basically it takes the information

14 from manufacturer to distributors, contractors

15 and dealers. We know that.

16 The second step, for distribution

17 points, retailers, resellers basically says the

18 same thing. We shall not knowingly sell to a

19 contractor-dealer that they're going to routinely

20 violate.

21 The third bullet becomes Contractors22 Dealer prohibited act. And again we can --
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1 basically it's the -- very similar. But it shall

2 be unlawful for any contractor or dealer to

3 knowingly install a product to consumers with the

4 knowledge that such sale or installation violates

5 applicable regional standards for that product. 

6 Knowingly installs so you can get rid of the

7 private labeler. 

8 And I just said knowingly installs a

9 product to a consumer with the knowledge that

10 such sale or installation routinely violates, et

11 cetera, et cetera, regional standards applicable

12 to the product.

13 MR. RAWALD: You took out the word

14 "routinely" right? The first time you said it

15 you had the word "routinely" in there. Because

16 it would be a one-time affair.

17 MR. ROCKY: Yes, I'm sorry. Violates

18 non-routinely. That was the difference, again. 

19 And that it does leave it a little open, but for

20 a contractor that could give them the situation

21 that they're going to be held responsible for any

22 and every sale, and then we can talk about the
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1 definition of violation or parameters, et cetera,

2 around that.

3 I thought that puts those three items

4 in a consistent approach. We've been talking

5 around it for a couple of days. And so I was

6 thinking of this last night knowing that Tim had

7 -- was working on something similar, Amy was

8 working on something similar. But I just wanted

9 to have consistent language.

10 MR. RAWALD: Tim, did you have any

11 additional acts you would want to put on the

12 table?

13 And this is -- what I want you to tell

14 you right now, just put them all on the table,

15 let's put them all out there, say these are the

16 acts we've been thinking about, percolating

17 about.

18 MR. BALLO: That actually uses the

19 three sort of categories I was thinking along the

20 same lines. 

21 The only thing I'm -- I mean, I don't

22 know if we want to get into the language yet.
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1 MR. RAWALD: I'd rather just let's put

2 them all on the table. Let's just get

3 everything, hey, here's all the things we think

4 we need to prohibit so we can kind of just have

5 everyone kind of get an idea of what the sense of

6 the universe of things we want prohibit would be.

7 MR. BALLO: I think the only big

8 difference -- and the way I have been thinking

9 about this, I'm not sure of the role of

10 "knowingly" and the knowledge that the contractor

11 needs to have.

12 I think it's more a strict what did

13 the contractor do, not what did the contractor

14 know. 

15 Maybe there's an issue there if they

16 don't get the right information from somebody. 

17 But I think that's a separate violation.

18 MR. RAWALD: But is that obviated by

19 the fact that "knowingly" is defined as actual or

20 should have known? Constructive knowledge as

21 well. 

22 I mean, the fact that they should have
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1 known as the installer what the value would be. 

2 Does that relieve that concern for you?

3 MR. BALLO: I think so.

4 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Jon, you're

5 standing up in the back.

6 MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with HARDI. 

7 Could we go back to the slide -- yes, thank you.

8 My question, Bryan, kind of focuses on

9 the retailers/resellers. And the reason for that

10 is that those entities typically sell to the

11 homeowner. 

12 If you go on Craig's List to buy from

13 an online retailer a non-compliant product that's

14 delivered typically to the homeowner. Then the

15 contractor would then install it. 

16 So the contractor is obviously on the

17 hook for installing an illegal product, but that

18 retailer or reseller has not sold directly to a

19 contractor but to a homeowner.

20 So I'm just trying to wrap my head

21 around how under this scenario we might be able

22 to attack those which I think there was a
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1 consensus around the table where may be likely to

2 be violators. 

3 And I'm open to suggestions. I'm just

4 bringing that up.

5 MR. ROCKY: So, this is Bryan. Just

6 from my comment was the discussion on retailer

7 covers the big box situation.

8 And in this particular case I was

9 using the term "reseller" specifically for those

10 internet businesses that are basically

11 contractors or obsolete inventory resellers or

12 something. 

13 They're going to still sell it to a

14 homeowner, but then a contractor who installs it

15 is the one who's going to be liable.

16 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter. I

17 think that I guess if you're calling contractors

18 anybody that installed it, I'll agree with that

19 statement. 

20 So that means -- because the homeowner

21 is going to install it, right? I mean they sell

22 retail and you get retired guy, or I was
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1 maintenance man for a factory and I know how to

2 pull a vacuum and set a charge on a system.

3 Because most of this stuff is going to

4 homeowners. And so, I mean, I have a little

5 trouble just with distributors in with retailers

6 that have a total different model, that don't do

7 training, don't do the right thing, don't invest

8 in the industry and have just a website. 

9 And where I think the greatest

10 violations by far, by far are going to be from

11 that sector is on the retail side.

12 MR. RAWALD: So Steve, would you want

13 there to be a separate prohibited act then for

14 those from the distributors? Is that what you're

15 suggesting on the table?

16 MR. PORTER: I don't want -- those

17 that sell to homeowners direct is not -- that's

18 not what we do. We're selling to licensed

19 contractors wholesale only. 

20 That's a different issue than people

21 that sell on a retail basis or put it direct to

22 the public right now.
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1 MR. RAWALD: I don't think I have the

2 impression that Bryan would be opposed to

3 separating those out into two different things if

4 that would be cleaner for you folks. Tim, would

5 that be okay with you too?

6 I think everyone would be okay with

7 that if we made four instead of three.

8 MR. SACHS: We have to do that because

9 "routinely" makes no sense in terms of an

10 individual consumer who might want to buy one.

11 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

12 MR. SACHS: Thank you. This was

13 Harvey.

14 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

15 Johnstone. Karen just asked me about whether

16 they should be under with contractors and

17 dealers. So it's a one-time violation.

18 Because when you think about it from

19 the retail side they actually know the ship-to of

20 the home address they're putting it in. So I

21 mean it should be a no knowing anything other

22 than they are shipping it right into the wrong
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1 state and they know it. And it's going to the

2 address where it's actually going to reside. So

3 if anybody has clear line of sight to an illegal

4 or prohibited act it would be them.

5 MR. RAWALD: And John Hurst, our big

6 box expert, is standing up and nodding his head.

7 MR. HURST: Yes, I agree. I think you

8 could, instead of breaking it into four you could

9 say contractors, dealers, retailers, resellers

10 and then change the bottom to say it shall be

11 unlawful for any contractor or dealer -- or I

12 guess you'd say it shall be unlawful for any

13 contractor, dealer, retailer, or reseller to

14 knowingly provide and/or install.

15 And Chuck and I were having a

16 conversation --

17 MR. ROCKY: Sorry. Go back to four

18 bullets then. Keep it simple for the contractor

19 who's installing it.

20 You've got a distributor. I agree

21 with what Steve was saying. You've got a

22 reseller selling direct to a homeowner. That's
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1 another category. Make it a fourth bullet. Then

2 we're not --

3 MR. HURST: You can, but the outcome

4 is the same.

5 MR. ROCKY: Yes, but you're confusing

6 the guys that Charlie and Chuck are -- you know,

7 you're lumping them in with these other

8 discussions. And now it's --

9 MR. HURST: If it makes you feel

10 better we can go with four categories. I'm just

11 making a point that, you know, the -- if a

12 reseller sells to a homeowner south of the border

13 it's a reasonable assumption that that product is

14 going to be installed in a non-compliant

15 location.

16 The reason I want to put a retailer,

17 a big box retailer has the contract or holds the

18 paper with the consumer, not the dealer. And so

19 that's why I think they should be in that

20 category with contractors and dealers.

21 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

22 Johnstone Supply. Yes, because I think you're
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1 going to end up saying the exact same statement

2 underneath it is the only reason he was thinking

3 of putting it there.

4 But I'd prefer to hear Charlie or

5 Chuck's thoughts on this issue.

6 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. I

7 guess I'd prefer not to be in with retailers and

8 resellers.

9 (Laughter)

10 MR. WHITE: But beyond that they're

11 not installing it. They're selling it but

12 they're probably not installing it, where the

13 contractor is doing the installation.

14 MR. GIBBONS: This is John from

15 Carrier. Does manufacturer include importers? 

16 Or do we need a separate one for importers?

17 MR. RAWALD: No. So dealer writ

18 large. Anytime we use a manufacturer, importer

19 is always assumed to be part of the group.

20 MR. GIBBONS: We've been talking about

21 so many I just wanted to make sure.

22 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt Lattanzi
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1 with NORDYNE. Under contractors and dealers

2 would it make sense to change install a product

3 to end users as opposed to consumers?

4 What I'm getting at there, for

5 example, my daughter's daycare has single-phase

6 13 SEER equipment installed all over it. 

7 I think you guys get my -- convenience

8 stores, other applications other than the home.

9 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

10 Johnstone Supply. So on retailers/resellers you

11 need to make it -- it says for -- you have

12 contractor/dealer to be changed to retailer or

13 resellers. 

14 And what was the other point, Karen? 

15 End user, yes.

16 MR. LATTANZI: Same point there,

17 right. Change that -- exactly.

18 MR. EISNER: Any other prohibited

19 acts? 

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I don't have a

21 prohibited act, but I was -- a comment on this

22 one. 
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1 Under contractors/dealers the -- at

2 the end of the second line where it says "with

3 knowledge that such sale or installation" do we -

4 - I mean, should we just say installation? We're

5 not looking at the sale, we're just looking at

6 the installation.

7 MR. LATTANZI: I think that was added

8 when John was talking about adding retailers and

9 resellers.

10 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes. And then back to

11 the private labeler. I have a vague

12 understanding of what a private labeler is. 

13 But I know that some of my members are

14 private labelers in the sense that you have

15 contractors who have essentially a Joe's Heating

16 & Cooling brand of equipment. Does that capture

17 them?

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So private

19 labeler as defined by the statute. Maybe Tim has

20 it in front of him so he can read it to us. So

21 as defined by the statute. 

22 And this prohibited act, that first
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1 one is also by the statute. So we're not

2 changing that one. So the question is would

3 those folks be subsumed.

4 So, Tim do you have it in front of you

5 in 6291?

6 MR. BALLO: 6291, paragraph 15, "The

7 term 'private labeler' means an owner of a brand

8 or trademark on the label of a consumer product

9 which bears a private label."

10 And then there's a definition of when

11 a consumer product bears a private label.

12 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie again. 

13 So, should -- if a contractor is -- okay. I

14 think I cleared it up. Thanks.

15 MR. PORTER: Charlie, this is Steve

16 Porter, Johnstone Supply. So yes, a private

17 labeler could be any of the other entities.

18 MR. HURST: John Hurst with Lennox. 

19 Just a point of clarification. It says, "It

20 shall be unlawful for any manufacturer or private

21 labeler to knowingly sell a product." And then

22 it goes down and says "distributor to knowingly
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1 sell a product."

2 The way this is defined I can't sell

3 them air filters, parts, compressors. I think we

4 want to limit it to just non-compliant product. 

5 So I can -- can I still sell products,

6 14 SEER products for that?

7 MR. EISNER: Look at the statute.

8 MR. RAWALD: Right, so John, so I want

9 to make the point again. The first prohibited

10 act is the one that's in the statute.

11 MR. HURST: Okay.

12 MR. RAWALD: So, the way we would view

13 that as the DOE is the term "product" applies to

14 the covered product which is the air conditioning

15 system.

16 MS. MEYERS: So, let me ask this

17 question. Am I prohibited from selling them a 16

18 SEER air conditioner --

19 MR. HURST: Right, that's my --

20 MS. MEYERS: -- covered product. But

21 it's not a minimum efficiency product.

22 MR. RAWALD: Right. That's a good
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1 question, right? Because I think I might have

2 posed this before.

3 So, you know a guy typically who

4 violates the standard. So, are you only

5 prohibited from selling him things through which

6 he could violate the standard? Or are you

7 prohibited from doing any business with him at

8 all? 

9 And that's an open question that has

10 not been posed as far as I know to the Department

11 in any way, shape, or form. We have not answered

12 it in any way, shape, or form.

13 MS. MEYERS: Well, consider it now

14 posed.

15 (Laughter)

16 MR. RAWALD: I know. And I presume

17 the preference of the manufacturer would be oh

18 no, no, I only want to not be able to sell him

19 things that could allow him to violate --

20 MR. HURST: Thirteen SEER.

21 MR. RAWALD: Right. You still want to

22 be able to deal with him with things that would
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1 be okay.

2 MR. EISNER: If it's sell a product

3 then it ends by routinely violates the standard

4 applicable to the product which arguably could go

5 back to a product. That's the only one you can't

6 sell. But I'm sure others could interpret it

7 differently.

8 MR. HURST: Right. And that's really

9 the clarification that I'm asking.

10 MR. RAWALD: That's a fair legal

11 question for the Department to answer. That's a

12 fair and square question on us. And Eric and I

13 will go back and talk to those people that are

14 knowledgeable about these things and get a good

15 answer for you. But it has not been posed

16 before.

17 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy Shepherd

18 with AHRI. And when you do that though, I mean

19 you look at those two sections that go together

20 that were added through the regional standards. 

21 Because that is clearly what they're talking

22 about, I think.
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1 If you guys want my opinion you can

2 call.

3 (Laughter)

4 MR. RAWALD: I love when the industry

5 tells me what clearly a statute meant.

6 (Laughter)

7 MR. RAWALD: That's very helpful.

8 MS. SHEPHERD: Look, I know you're a

9 busy guy. I'm just trying to cut down on your

10 workload.

11 MR. PORTER: Isn't that why we're

12 here?

13 MR. EISNER: Anybody else want to add

14 to the list?

15 MR. RAWALD: So, while we're

16 discussing prohibited acts what may be fair to

17 now broach is the issue of do folks think it's

18 germane or prudent to have a prohibited act for

19 failing to provide or retain records? We've

20 discussed at length. Was that something people

21 want to discuss at all?

22 So, DOE currently has a prohibited act
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1 for manufacturers and private labelers who fail

2 to provide records when requested to do so within

3 30 days. So that's our current prohibited act.

4 So, the fact of the matter is we're

5 trying to -- we're considering strongly a record

6 retention requirement. And there would also be a

7 production requirement of some sort.

8 Do folks want to propose or consider

9 recommending the additional prohibited act for

10 distributors, dealers, retailers, contractors for

11 failing to provide information it's requested by

12 the Department? Harvey.

13 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I

14 have strongly advocated that we work toward

15 minimum burden. 

16 And I think I've heard pretty much

17 consensus that it means and that you've supported

18 the idea of a reactive process in which somebody

19 is squealing about a non-compliant unit and that

20 works its way back up.

21 This process cannot work without

22 retention of records. It is my understanding
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1 that the dominant participants in this market

2 already have pretty good to excellent record

3 retention capabilities so that this is minimal

4 burden on the reputable market players, although

5 it may be a burden on those who are part of a

6 less formal economy.

7 My personal gut feeling is that some

8 of those are the more likely ones to try to skirt

9 all sorts of requirements, whether it's pulling

10 the vacuum before charging or whatever.

11 So, I believe that the only way I can

12 sell to my management and others the concepts

13 we've talked about of this reactive policy

14 framework are to have a record retention

15 capability at each level in the chain.

16 MR. RAWALD: Right, but I guess,

17 Harvey, do you feel you'd have to say to your

18 supervisors, and if DOE requests records and

19 they're not produced, DOE has the authority to

20 then charge civil penalties for failing to

21 produce those records? That's the question.

22 MR. EISNER: Can I ask a question
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1 here? Are you distinguishing between a

2 requirement to keep the records and a prohibited

3 act if you don't keep the records in terms of the

4 penalty that can be applied to each?

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, what I've

6 heard from several people over the course of the

7 last few days is that -- so, what we currently

8 have is we don't have a penalty. 

9 Everyone is required to keep records. 

10 But if I ask for the records from a manufacturer

11 or private labeler and they don't give them to me

12 I can charge you money for failing to give them

13 to me. That's a prohibited act.

14 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth. I would

15 agree that failure to produce records is by

16 default a violation.

17 MR. SACHS: I would agree with that. 

18 On the other hand, there's one thing

19 I did not say that is important so I want to

20 state it now. 

21 I'm not sure that I would have

22 consensus in our community, but at this point I
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1 do not feel that we need an affirmative

2 obligation for market participants to submit

3 reports or data to DOE on a regular basis unless

4 they are challenged with what we can informally

5 call an audit. You're looking for evidence of a

6 particular violation.

7 So I'm not asking for routine

8 submission, but I am asking for routine

9 retention, duration to be determined. Thank you.

10 MR. BALLO: So, this is Tim. I guess

11 you could address Harvey's concern by narrowing

12 the prohibited act to failure to provide records

13 to the Department upon request as part of an

14 investigation.

15 MR. RAWALD: I'm pretty certain that's

16 all we would want, right? Because that's what we

17 do right now for manufacturers and private

18 labelers. So we would only want to keep it

19 constrained to what we currently do.

20 So, where the current prohibited act

21 reads as failure to provide records to the

22 Department when requested, and you get a 30-day
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1 window there before we -- then it's going to be a

2 prohibited act facing a penalty of $200 per day

3 that you don't provide the records.

4 So now, as I explained to folks. We

5 have prosecutory discretion. We can work with

6 people in individual cases where we would relieve

7 them of that day. 

8 If they come to me and say my records

9 are a mess, I'm trying really hard, I can't find

10 them. We're not going to start charging them

11 $200 the first day. 

12 But if you failed to run up the

13 shredder that day and that's why they need more

14 time then that's why you have those kind of

15 provisions in place.

16 And so I just want to gauge from the

17 group if they feel as we're looking at prohibited

18 acts if having a failure to produce records

19 should be a prohibited act extended to those

20 parties that we're now extending this requirement

21 to retain records to here as part of this

22 situation.
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1 Jon Melchi has been sitting there a

2 little patiently.

3 MR. MELCHI: Thanks, Doug. Jon Melchi

4 with HARDI. 

5 Doug, for me it would be just helpful. 

6 I talked with a variety of our members as far as

7 what records were kept.

8 But specifically if you had some

9 thoughts in mind about what types of -- what you

10 would need, what the Department would need the

11 distributor to maintain.

12 For instance, we had discussed I

13 believe when we were over at ACEEE whether it

14 would be -- whether it was possible for a

15 wholesaler to go through records and see if a

16 product had been delivered or picked up in the

17 store.

18 And I heard from our members, half -

19 yes they can do that, half - no, they cannot. So

20 that type of information would be difficult to

21 maybe track down.

22 But by and large I think most
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1 distributors have records that would be able to

2 satisfy your investigative needs. 

3 You know, I don't know whether it

4 absolutely needs to be a prohibited act. I think

5 you would have subpoena power to get those

6 records regardless of whether it was prohibited

7 not. 

8 Whether you've decided to fine them,

9 I don't know that -- personally I don't know that

10 that would make much of a difference, but I do

11 think most distributors would be able to comply

12 with an investigation with very little. If

13 indeed you're pretty specific in your ask.

14 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this is Doug. 

15 So I think what I suggested this morning I think

16 would be very helpful is if you and Steve and I

17 and Charlie and Chuck sit down and kind of craft

18 the language that you think would be best and

19 then forward it to the group.

20 So, about what records to retain, how

21 detailed we need to be. So that would be

22 helpful.
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1 What I really need is the what, the

2 where and when. Those are the three questions I

3 kind of have of the contractors. And so any way

4 that you guys can fill that in would be helpful.

5 And I understand that you can't

6 control the ultimate where, but at least the, you

7 know, it was sold to a guy who operates in this

8 area, that kind of thing would be helpful.

9 MR. MELCHI: Yes. This is Jon from

10 HARDI. And Steve can maybe elaborate a little

11 more. Most distributors would be able to tell

12 you which branch the sale was conducted out of. 

13 Something along those lines.

14 And given the 18-month grace period

15 there would be a little more allowable, I would

16 say, information education period for us to

17 consult with our distributors.

18 The fear was I think if the Department

19 needed something beyond what we normally keep

20 that could require tweaking of ERP systems which

21 would incur significant costs and obviously tweak

22 the cost of the enforcement.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Right. And we're not

2 trying to do that. We're trying to keep it to

3 what you people already have. That's always been

4 my thought.

5 So, with the $200, the purpose behind

6 that as I see it, the way we use it now is for

7 folks that are trying to avoid being caught. 

8 They just don't want to provide their records

9 because they know they'll be caught with the

10 records. So they just don't give them to you.

11 And so then we say, okay, well, if you

12 don't give them to us then we're going to start

13 charging you dollars per day that you don't give

14 me the things that are out there. 

15 So that's why that exists. It kind of

16 helps people, okay, I'm going to give them

17 something. We don't use it very often but I

18 think it is a stick that we do use on occasion so

19 it's worthy of discussion. 

20 I've heard from Elizabeth that she's

21 pro that. It sounds like Tim and Harvey are at

22 least thinking it might be useful to have that as
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1 a stick to if you don't produce your records

2 you're being charged some sort of civil penalty. 

3 It's a prohibited act not to produce records.

4 So, what do other folks think? Do you

5 want to have that as a proposed prohibited act or

6 do you want to think about it some more which is

7 a fair question as well?

8 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

9 Johnstone Supply. I'm a little confused because

10 you make that request now. We provide them. I

11 believe if we don't respond what happens

12 currently today?

13 MR. RAWALD: Right. So currently

14 today we'll go ahead and get an injunction and

15 we'll get a subpoena from the court and we'll get

16 it from you which is one process that people find

17 okay, I don't want to go through that, I want to

18 go ahead and avoid that hassle. So, we have the

19 ability to go ahead and do that.

20 I don't always issue a subpoena

21 though. So sometimes we just do a request for

22 information. So I'd have to issue a subpoena in
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1 order to go get a court order for that subpoena.

2 So, what the Department says, well, if

3 I come to a manufacturer and I request

4 information from him and he doesn't respond, even

5 if there's not a subpoena we can still go ahead

6 and charge them money because they're failing to

7 give me that information. So there's kind of a

8 lower level but so there's consequences from

9 avoiding that.

10 Once again, by and large this is

11 something that folks when they're requested they

12 give the information. And I don't think it will

13 be used very often hopefully.

14 But it's hard to have a requirement

15 than have nothing to do if somebody gives you,

16 you know, laughs at you and doesn't fulfill it. 

17 You know, do you want to have some sort of

18 ability to have a stick if they ignore the

19 requirement that you're giving them.

20 And so I'm putting it before the group

21 as a discussion.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary for
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1 the California IOUs with an opinion.

2 If we're going to expect that we will

3 achieve a reasonable degree of compliance we have

4 to have all of the tools necessary in order to

5 determine whether or not compliance has been

6 achieved. So, I suggest that we do need this

7 requirement.

8 MR. EISNER: Anybody want to speak on

9 behalf of not having a requirement?

10 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug. So I think

11 I heard from Jon Melchi that he thought the

12 subpoena power was intimidating enough that you

13 wouldn't need the $200 penalty. So at least

14 that's what his argument was.

15 We haven't heard from the

16 manufacturers at all. I know this wouldn't

17 affect them because they already have a record

18 retention and they already have a prohibited act

19 for them. So they don't have a vested interest

20 in this. It really would just affect the

21 contractors, dealers and distributors.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary
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1 again. The $200 penalty is really kind of

2 inconsequential. But I would prefer to see DOE

3 have direct authority to levy a fine, small

4 though it might be. And if that doesn't work

5 then the backup opportunity to get a subpoena is

6 still there.

7 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug. And I

8 would guess given the size of some of these

9 operations, $200 wouldn't be necessarily

10 inconsequential. I mean, that could be the

11 difference between them actually making their

12 margins that month and missing that. 

13 So, it might be enough to spur

14 behavior in some way for some of these

15 operations. From what I'm hearing from folks,

16 from Chuck and Charlie especially.

17 Anyway, so --

18 MR. SACHS: I want to rewind for a

19 second. I'm not sure that you and I heard the

20 same things from Jon. And I would like to ask

21 him for repeated clarification. This is Harvey.

22 What I heard was a feeling without
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1 having polled all his members that the necessary

2 information is likely to be an easy thing and

3 part of general practice today.

4 Now, I may have gone further than you

5 meant me to so that's why I'm asking for

6 clarification. Because I think that's very

7 important.

8 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with HARDI. 

9 I wouldn't necessarily use the term "easy." I

10 would say available, you know, with some due

11 diligence.

12 MR. SACHS: Thank you very much. 

13 That's helpful and really important to me.

14 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White. 

15 Harvey, a little perspective for you.

16 At my business, small business, only

17 a couple of technicians our most used HVAC vendor

18 I would probably have a manila folder, file

19 folder, oh an inch and a half thick at the end of

20 the year. And not all those in that file are air

21 conditioners. 

22 So, anybody of any size would have a
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1 lot of invoices from a wholesaler. And there's

2 multiple wholesalers usually. So, it would be

3 some sorting. Especially if we go back a couple

4 of years there's going to be a lot of sheets of

5 paper to paw through and read what's on them,

6 look for model numbers, look for that. 

7 So there's information available but

8 it's not searchable in an easy form. But

9 certainly whatever's there we can pull together

10 and answer their questions.

11 And as Doug stated, if you come and

12 say we need this in 30 days and we're in the

13 height of air conditioning season I'd say, Doug,

14 here's what I've got. You can start looking

15 through it if you want. But if you give me

16 another 10 days I can have a better job. I would

17 bet he will be amenable.

18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And

19 thanks, Chuck. That's certainly helpful. And

20 that burden of sorting is why I did not ask for

21 reporting to be done, but only to have the

22 information available, continuing this reactive
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1 thing. Thank you.

2 MR. PORTER: Doug, this is Steve

3 Porter, Johnstone Supply. Two hundred dollars a

4 day is a heavy fine for a lot of contractors and

5 a lot of small distributors that would be out

6 there.

7 I think the fear in what Jon talks

8 about on the subpoena side is since all of us in

9 the industry top to bottom deal with lawsuits the

10 cost for the attorney to fight the subpoena is

11 far greater so that is the encouragement that

12 nobody would want to go through. Because that

13 cost per day would be far greater. 

14 I think it's unnecessary because we do

15 it in about a day and we react quickly, I

16 believe, when we have been asked just due to that

17 fact that we don't want to go -- nobody wants to

18 go through that process at all.

19 MR. MELCHI: Doug, Jon Melchi with

20 HARDI. 

21 From the Department's perspective how

22 often is a subpoena not effective where you do
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1 have to go full injunction?

2 I mean, I tend to agree with Steve

3 that getting that piece of paper is likely to be

4 the kick in the rear if somebody wasn't

5 necessarily eager to submit records that would be

6 much more I think -- having to call your attorney

7 again and get that clock rolling is expensive

8 enough.

9 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I can't think

10 of an occasion where I've had to go and get an

11 injunction.

12 However, I have used the $200 penalty. 

13 And I've also been awfully persuasive in maybe a

14 pressuring sort of way. 

15 So I think that combination helps me

16 avoid having to get the subpoena. I think people

17 have paid a fine for not cooperating with us. So

18 that is a consequence. I feel they probably feel

19 that's easier. Then ultimately they come around

20 before we ever get to the injunction route.

21 MR. MELCHI: Okay. A follow-up

22 question. I know you described before that the
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1 Department has some leeway in Chuck's scenario

2 where he may need an extra 10 days.

3 As I was talking with some of my

4 members the scenario came up where one of my

5 members acquires another company. And they

6 acquire all of their records. 

7 But maybe those records aren't

8 exactly, you know, kept up to tiptop shape and it

9 would take them awhile. Or if there's an ERP

10 transition. I know with Chuck, anybody that

11 there would be some records that maybe are lost

12 permanently but need to be found.

13 How often does the Department kind of

14 provide that sort of discretion or delay? It

15 would help as I talk to my members to kind of

16 provide them that assurance.

17 MR. RAWALD: Listen, we're not in the

18 business of making money from $200 a day civil

19 penalties, right? We're trying to make sure that

20 products are compliant. So we're pretty

21 understanding because we want to get to the right

22 answer and make sure people have their behavior
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1 go in the right direction. 

2 That's -- as a general rule I would

3 say we're very understanding. And I come from a

4 world of prosecuting crimes where people are a

5 lot less understanding. I think we're pretty

6 reasonable. 

7 But you can't put in a regulation DOE,

8 we're pretty reasonable, right? But I will tell

9 you that that's what our -- that's the way we've

10 approached these things.

11 MR. MELCHI: Sorry, one last question. 

12 Now, when you do have to, say, submit a subpoena

13 that becomes a public record, correct?

14 MR. RAWALD: So, the way the

15 Department handles subpoenas typically is that we

16 don't publish subpoenas like we do the Notice of

17 Non-compliance, the Notice of Proposed Civil

18 Penalty. 

19 So, if it goes to a court and we get

20 an injunction that is a matter of public record. 

21 There is now a court order. That is a lot more

22 visible, absolutely.
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1 MR. MELCHI: Thank you.

2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And for

3 the record my organization, ACEEE, has not

4 supported LFEA of 2014. That's the Lawyers Full

5 Employment Act.

6 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And this is Charlie

7 with ACCA. I think I'm the only -- yes, I think

8 Chuck chimed in.

9 I have to think about this one because

10 I think sometimes just the hammer that's there

11 may be enough. 

12 But I do think that for this to be --

13 this to work, maybe another hammer. So I'll have

14 to confer and get back with you on that one.

15 MR. RAWALD: That's fair. I'm asking

16 -- oh, Keith.

17 MR. DENNIS: So, I would have to check

18 with my members too, but I think that if you have

19 something that is working or workable now, a

20 penalty would be something that we would probably

21 oppose. 

22 Just because it could lend itself to
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1 people who are not guilty of anything being asked

2 for information and maybe not having the ability

3 to get something quick enough and ending up with

4 a fine. 

5 Whereas if they were issued a subpoena

6 they would potentially be able to come up with

7 the documentation without being at a financial

8 loss.

9 So I'm uncomfortable with it. I

10 wouldn't hold anything up right now, but I would

11 want to check with people before I said I

12 supported an additional potential fine for not

13 producing paperwork in a certain amount of time.

14 MR. RAWALD: Okay. And just to be

15 clear, I'm not asking anyone to commit to

16 anything today. I think everyone should and

17 could, must talk to their people. I certainly

18 need to talk to the Department about that.

19 But I wanted to get up on the board

20 all the universe of prohibited acts that people

21 had in their mind so we can make sure that we

22 have them all kind of adequately described here
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1 at this juncture.

2 MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen Meyers

3 with Rheem. Just to opine on this.

4 I don't know if it needs to be a

5 prohibited act or not, but I do think there needs

6 to be something in the enforcement rule that lets

7 people know that they are going to have to be

8 able to produce these records in a certain amount

9 of time.

10 If nothing else, I think it may signal

11 to the smaller entities that they need a way to

12 be able to track and file this information in

13 case they were to get called upon to provide it.

14 And so if you get a subpoena you may

15 not know I even had to keep that information. 

16 But if you have it listed somewhere in this rule

17 whether it's a prohibited act or not it may at

18 least say, hey, here's a requirement in the

19 enforcement rule that if I get asked I have to

20 provide the information in 30 days. 

21 If I were a small entity that would

22 signal to me that I might -- may or may not,
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1 depending upon how you do your filing system,

2 that I might need to make changes.

3 MR. RAWALD: Are there any other

4 proposed prohibited acts people have in their

5 minds? We've been going over this stuff now the

6 last six days, so the meetings. Or does this

7 cover the universe of the acts you would want to

8 have prohibited?

9 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Okay. 

10 Now, we've put off violation. We've talked about

11 reports and findings.

12 Next thing on our list if we want to

13 go back to that is restrictions of manufacturers

14 to ship some products to distributors in certain

15 states.

16 The following one is restrictions on

17 distributors to ship to contractors in certain

18 states. People who originally put those on the

19 list want to talk about them?

20 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth with

21 NRDC. So I think I was the one that brought

22 those up. 
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1 And to be clear, when I was discussing

2 them and putting them on the table what I

3 envisioned was a prohibition on an actor to ship

4 a product to a state that was not compliant with

5 the regional standard.

6 And that could be at any level, or on

7 a specified level if it's more appropriate.

8 MR. EISNER: Comments? Reactions? 

9 MR. PORTER: I'm sorry, Elizabeth,

10 that last part. What was your ask there?

11 MS. NOLL: I guess when I was thinking

12 about it the prohibition would have been on the

13 manufacturer to ship air conditioners below 14

14 SEER into the states where they would be non15 compliant. 

16 We could go further and put another

17 prohibition on distributors under the same

18 scheme. 

19 Would we need to go to that level, or

20 would then we be ensuring that the products are

21 only going to areas where they would be

22 compliant?
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1 MR. PORTER: Steve Porter, Johnstone

2 Supply. So, the difficulty that I see in this,

3 not that -- I think we have a pretty good rule

4 with who's a violator. And once we get that set

5 I think that kind of takes care of the issue.

6 The difficulty in restricting

7 shipment, well number one, if the violation is

8 installation it would be difficult to manage. 

9 But also the fact that a lot of -- I

10 have distribution centers that ship all over the

11 United States as well as I think many of the

12 manufacturers have distribution centers that do.

13 We have contractors that work out of

14 various states that ship and do work in Texas

15 from as far away as Michigan that do contracting

16 work in Texas. So that would be the difficulty

17 of managing that.

18 I think the fact that they know the

19 rule and they're violators would take care of

20 that. 

21 But restricting just shipment or

22 distribution in general will be difficult,
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1 especially all the way across the borders. I

2 mean I've got stores that are having -- stores

3 and GCs that are going to have to deal with all

4 three regions. So.

5 MS. NOLL: So, my concern with that is

6 that if we are making this completely a reactive

7 plan then we need to put as many mechanisms in

8 place to ensure that non-compliant products are

9 not ending up in the hands of bad actors.

10 So, that means we need to have as many

11 pieces put in place so that we're limiting that

12 from even happening. So this to me seems like a

13 way to ensure that you are never even presented

14 with the opportunity to be a bad actor. 

15 "Never" is a strong word, but we're

16 putting as many pieces of the puzzle together

17 that limit bad acting.

18 And I guess I would ask that those

19 that have distribution that would be impacted, if

20 we could get -- I mean, we're talking about a

21 scenario under today's business models. Would

22 distributors react and change their businesses,
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1 or would we be putting distributors out of

2 business because they're located in Kentucky and

3 selling into Indiana? And what is that impact? 

4 Or are we just talking in hypotheticals?

5 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter,

6 Johnstone Supply. We're certainly not talking in

7 hypotheticals at all. This is -- these are

8 planned build-outs that are built decades out. 

9 Distribution strategies and plans that are

10 planned for 10-15 year build-outs. So.

11 MS. NOLL: Right, but my question is

12 would you not be able to modify those and -- I

13 mean, if you're not going to be able to sell that

14 product in South Carolina would your business not

15 be changing anyway to reflect that?

16 MR. PORTER: I'm confused by the -- or

17 maybe I'm not explaining myself well on how

18 distribution or the movement of product is.

19 Number one, we have movement of

20 product on build-out of DC. So somebody may have

21 a distribution center that is assigned to support

22 a geographic region and that geographic region is
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1 designed for optimum use around fuel efficiency,

2 trucks going in and lowest cost of delivery. 

3 So I mean it's all planned about

4 making sure that you can deliver that product at

5 the most economically low-cost, lowest energy

6 usage to get that product to the point of order,

7 or the point of resale.

8 So that's all designed in those

9 models. And people build stores in those

10 regions. 

11 I was talking to Harvey about this. 

12 That's why I think the minimal impact of some of

13 this stuff we're talking about is going to be

14 pretty low just from the standpoint of the cost

15 delta for somebody to even drive to put a deck in

16 a car, drive an hour in Kentucky up to Ohio to

17 get a unit and come back would negate all

18 profitability in that item, or make it -- and it

19 may even get worse as those regional standards

20 come in place and those price depressions

21 becoming more and more competitive in those

22 markets with those regional products will make it
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1 even less of an impact, a likely scenario that

2 that's going to happen.

3 That's why I actually believe the most

4 likely scenario for violations is really going to

5 be around the fact that I'm a homeowner online

6 shopping and I have no clue about regional

7 standards. 

8 And that online retailer or retailer

9 doesn't have anything up on his website and so I

10 just look at the lowest-cost unit and that's what

11 I buy.

12 But that will never be the case for a

13 contractor even on the border states unless he's

14 right exactly on the border and is able to run

15 back and forth easily. 

16 And then, you know, then I think those

17 -- that's where you're going to see people get

18 turned in. 

19 But the cost of distribution in those

20 models are really set up to optimize lowest cost

21 because this product is so expensive to ship and

22 handle and move around. It's the most costly
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1 product that we handle.

2 MS. NOLL: So I guess then if you're

3 optimizing then the only units that would be

4 going into southern states would be compliant

5 products. So what is the justification for not

6 having a prohibition on non-compliant products

7 going into non-compliant states?

8 MR. PORTER: Because I have a

9 distribution center that's set up to handle

10 stores along border states. 

11 Or that distribution center may be in

12 a border state. It could be in Kentucky and it

13 services Michigan, Illinois, South Dakota, North

14 Dakota. All of those things that distributor

15 could handle, would handle that region. And that

16 region could be North.

17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with

18 ACCA. The typical example I've used over the

19 years is a contractor. So let's forget about

20 distributors. Let's talk about a contractor.

21 MR. PORTER: Let's not forget about

22 them.
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1 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Well, no, no. But

2 just for the purpose of the example.

3 MR. PORTER: Unless there's a fine

4 involved.

5 (Laughter)

6 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Is a contractor who's

7 based out of Cincinnati. And as we all know if

8 you've ever flown in and out of Cincinnati you

9 actually fly into Kentucky because Covington is

10 where the airport is.

11 A lot of contractors in and around

12 Cincinnati service Kentucky. And it goes back

13 and forth.

14 So if you were to say to a contractor

15 in Covington you can't receive shipment of a 13

16 SEER unit then you've whacked his service area in

17 half. Unless he opens a new plant or receiving

18 facility in Ohio. 

19 Look at Philadelphia area. It's a

20 similar large metro area that sort of straddles

21 between the southeastern Pennsylvania with

22 Wilmington and all that. And I think in
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1 Missouri there's a similar Missouri border.

2 So to basically deny shipment to a

3 state almost arbitrarily doesn't violate the

4 rule, but it also denies access to product, legal

5 product to install to a contractor.

6 I did talk to a contractor a couple of

7 days ago who's out of Michigan and he runs a lot

8 of jobs all over the country because he's just

9 that big and there's a niche market that he

10 services.

11 And he'll throw employees, equipment,

12 and everything, tools, into a truck and they all

13 go down and they'll bang out a bunch of jobs

14 staying in hotels and then come back. And he's

15 just got crews. 

16 But everything runs for him out of

17 Michigan just because that's how he operates. 

18 And that would also -- he would have to figure

19 out how do I get product in order to do his work.

20 So I don't think it's practical to

21 deny shipment of equipment to states where it

22 ultimately and likely won't end up anyway.
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1 MR. HURST: John Hurst with Lennox. 

2 Just as an example. I know that this is

3 inverted, but we serve -- we have regional

4 distribution centers. And our southern

5 California distribution center serves Washington

6 and Oregon. And that's not unusual for a hub and

7 spoke system to exist. 

8 We have a factory in Orangeburg, South

9 Carolina, and then we have a distribution center

10 in Orangeburg, South Carolina. So under your

11 definition we wouldn't be able to ship to our own

12 DC across the street.

13 It would require manufacturers and

14 distributors to employ a lot of capital to redo

15 our entire distribution network.

16 MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen with

17 Rheem. I know you put these on there last week

18 when we were talking about this, but with the

19 additional proposed prohibited acts do you think

20 these are still necessary proposals? Just a

21 question. 

22 We kind of really tightened up that
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1 sale even happening, so where the inventory is

2 located to me is not as much a concern since you

3 can't sell or install it.

4 MS. NOLL: So my concern I think

5 remains that if we are going down a path that is

6 completely reactionary and we want to ensure that

7 Doug gets the right information of where the

8 violation has occurred that requires a scheme put

9 in place where as many actors as possible are

10 giving that information to Doug so he knows where

11 the violations are occurring.

12 But I think that also hinges on we

13 have confidence that non-compliant products are

14 not getting into the hands of those that are

15 going to do -- do the wrong thing. 

16 So, I agree with you that if we feel

17 that the prohibited act is going to be a

18 significant deterrent and there's going to be

19 records retention that is enough information that

20 upon request we know where they're happening

21 then, yes, this does start to eliminate.

22 But I do believe that if you are
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1 located in Orangeburg, South Carolina,

2 manufacturing a 13 SEER unit, why does it need to

3 go to the distributor in Orangeburg, South

4 Carolina? Why wouldn't it go to the area of the

5 country where it's compliant to be installed?

6 MR. RAWALD: Elizabeth, I want to

7 reassure you that I don't view anything that

8 we've done here to restrict me from being

9 proactive in my investigations. 

10 What I want people to understand is

11 the practical reality of resourcing and the way

12 we approach investigations is that reactive is by

13 and large the name of the game as far as I can

14 see it.

15 But I think that I would embrace the

16 idea of being proactive. And if given

17 information, we would be proactive.

18 So I do want to make sure that you

19 guys are aware of that fact. I don't think

20 anything is here to limit me from being

21 proactive.

22 MR. EISNER: John?
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1 MR. HURST: John Hurst with Lennox. 

2 To answer the question. So let's take

3 Orangeburg, South Carolina out of the mix here

4 for a second. It's a beautiful place. You

5 should go sometime.

6 Let's say the product is manufactured

7 south of the border in Mexico. It is cheaper

8 both from a transportation, from a fuel

9 efficiency, from a product damage standpoint to

10 ship in truckload quantities and then ship it to

11 a re-distribution facility, say, in Dallas,

12 Texas. 

13 And you may break those loads down and

14 then repackage them for shipment to a

15 distributor, who then would take it and

16 potentially repackage that shipment to their

17 various branches.

18 And we would ship in some cases to

19 distributors that have branches in Chicago, in

20 Louisville, Kentucky and points in between. 

21 So it's really about, I think somebody

22 said it earlier, getting it from point A to point
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1 B to point C to point D in the most cost2 effective manner.

3 And that could be gasoline, damage,

4 energy, all of the above.

5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. What I

6 hear Elizabeth asking for is belt and suspenders. 

7 And that certainly adds to comfort factor.

8 No, it doesn't add to comfort. For

9 comfort you don't need the belt. I'm corrected

10 by Steve. It's suspenders with a belt.

11 But trying to move beyond that and get

12 into serious. I think we've learned or done a

13 couple of things today that are relevant to it

14 from that perspective.

15 One of them is the list of prohibited

16 acts which -- and the commitments we've heard

17 from HARDI in particular, for example, have made

18 me feel better about my suspenders.

19 The other thing that came out in part

20 from Steve's comments here and in part from a

21 little bit of side conversation, and it's been

22 reinforced by John is that the economics strongly
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1 favor putting as many things on the truck all at

2 once as possible.

3 My own gut feeling is that when the

4 regional standards take effect the price gap

5 between 13's and 14's nationally is likely to

6 narrow. 

7 And my gut feeling for which I have

8 zero data is that at that point the cost of a 13

9 plus a single condensing unit shipment is going

10 to wind up being more than the cost of a 14. I

11 don't know that for sure, but it's certainly

12 going to be at least in the same ballpark.

13 So that there will be less -- if I'm

14 right there will be less economic incentive to

15 try to put in a 13 condensing unit where it's

16 non-compliant.

17 I'd love to have some reinforcement

18 for these gut feelings, but if I'm getting the

19 economics to stack up as well as the information

20 it would tend to make me less uncomfortable with

21 giving up my belt.

22 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? 
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1 Where do you stand on this, Elizabeth? Still

2 need convincing? Still feel it's important?

3 MS. NOLL: I still feel it's important

4 that we try to eliminate as many potential

5 pathways to bad acting as possible.

6 MR. EISNER: Are there ways to address

7 Elizabeth's concerns in terms of packaging, or

8 marking, or the way they're delivered to

9 distribution centers?

10 What I hear is it's not a matter of

11 just distributing your packages to another place

12 because you may not have a place that can easily

13 serve the areas you want. 

14 It's a matter of building new

15 buildings, or adding more places they have to go. 

16 But is there something you can do within the

17 existing system that can address some of the

18 concerns?

19 MR. HURST: John Hurst for Lennox. I

20 think the answer to your question is there are

21 things that I think we're all already doing.

22 For example, if you walk through at
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1 least our warehouse you can look at the box and

2 you can tell when the product was made. You can

3 tell what it is just by looking at the side of

4 the box. And that's nothing that's been required

5 by the Department of Energy or the Federal Trade

6 Commission.

7 In addition, our business units are

8 looking at ways to segregate that product through

9 systems and by visual identification as well. 

10 And that's not a requirement by the Department. 

11 That's something that we're doing to ensure that

12 we comply as both a manufacturer and as a

13 distributor.

14 I know that distributors have asked us

15 also to provide visual identification beyond what

16 the Department requires. 

17 So I'd like to point out maybe the

18 presumption is that we won't do anything unless

19 compelled to do so. It's not true. We're trying

20 to comply with this and devising our own ways. 

21 And I'm not going to speak for any

22 other manufacturer what they're doing, but I
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1 think they probably have the same issue. I think

2 Steve has the same issue and he's probably trying

3 to think through ways that his company can

4 comply.

5 But, again, we all know our own

6 systems, our distribution, our customers and

7 we're all working through ways to maybe help

8 compliance without being compelled to do so by a

9 regulation.

10 MR. WINNINGHAM: To add to what John

11 said. Kind of aligned with this change is a

12 change to the FTC Energy Guide label. And it has

13 to be viewable from basically the outside of the

14 box. 

15 Whether it's through a window or

16 whatever, but there will be a means to -- you

17 know, you've got the model number information,

18 you've got some of the segregation tactics and

19 you'll also have a viewable Energy Guide. 

20 Particularly in line with what we've talked about

21 as guidance for setting kind of the bottom of the

22 bar.
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1 MR. GIBBONS: This is John from

2 Carrier. And that Energy label is viewable on

3 AHRI website and all the OEMs manufacturer sites. 

4 Or websites, excuse me.

5 MR. PORTER: Steve Porter, Johnstone

6 Supply. So that's going to make it a lot easier

7 to pick when you do have mixed product within a

8 distribution center, Elizabeth. So as we sort

9 that and we send people down to pick that product

10 and we're shipping it across.

11 But I can guarantee you the regional

12 standards will obviously put some pressure on us

13 that are going to make us -- we'll be looking at

14 different ways to handle that product and

15 different ways to deal with the issue. 

16 Just because there's nobody in

17 distribution -- because what we are is we don't

18 make anything. We're just finding the quickest,

19 most economical way to get that product to

20 market, and land it, and have it there when they

21 need it when it's 100 degrees outside. So we

22 carry all that inventory to make sure it's there
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1 on time in the area where it's needed. 

2 So there's nobody, especially my folks

3 that have to deal with three market areas now

4 when they had one piece of equipment, their

5 inventory just increased, who knows, twofold to

6 keep the order quantities needed to go through a

7 season to meet demand. 

8 This is a very expensive proposition

9 right now the way it is on distribution. It's

10 huge. Because I'm now carrying two to three

11 equipment models to make the same sale I made

12 before with one.

13 Each one of those, just to give

14 everybody a quick, boring distribution issue

15 requires a new pick face. So it's not they all

16 take up the same area. Those are different pick

17 faces that somebody has to go to and has to

18 maintain. Different overflow areas where that

19 product has to be maintained. 

20 This is potentially, you know, it's

21 going to cost us -- it's costing us a lot of

22 money to do right now. Besides moving -- if we
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1 had to move distribution centers across the U.S.

2 and close them and put those people out of work. 

3 And stuff that we just bought a year ago, you

4 know. 

5 We have closed it, but we did have a

6 -- just to give you another boring piece here --

7 we had -- Memphis is probably the most

8 recommended distribution spot in America. That

9 served everything from South Dakota -- or North

10 Dakota for us down to Texas. So, and all around. 

11 So it actually would hit the -- if

12 you're in Memphis and potentially a distributor

13 could be in Memphis, he would touch all of those

14 regions to get the product there effectively. 

15 That's the problem that distribution faces with

16 it.

17 MR. EISNER: Elizabeth, any reaction? 

18 Anything more you want?

19 MS. NOLL: We can move on.

20 MR. EISNER: Okay.

21 MR. RAWALD: It's 4:30.

22 MR. EISNER: We agreed on quarter of.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Doug, this is Gary. 

2 Before we run out of time today I'd just like to

3 note that I sent to Alex and he distributed to

4 the group the PowerPoint presentation PG&E Codes

5 and Standards Consultants prepared for the

6 California Energy Commission.

7 And what it is is a summary of studies

8 the CEC has done about compliance with their

9 appliance standard programs. 

10 And we, the California Investor-Owned

11 Utilities, are charged by the Public Utilities

12 Commission to support codes and standards

13 improvement. That includes education and

14 outreach with respect to compliance.

15 So, we did this literature review to

16 present to the CEC to get a better idea where

17 opportunities existed to improve compliance

18 through education. And you should all have this

19 on your email to take a look at.

20 I think it makes interesting reading. 

21 One caveat. I don't think the studies were

22 perfect. That is to say that there were some
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1 flaws in the way they were done that may lead to

2 less than perfect conclusions. However, they're

3 the best information we've got.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay, thank you. All

5 right, do we want to start with adding burden to

6 contractors to fix non-compliant installations,

7 or start there in the morning? We've got about

8 10 more minutes left till we agreed to depart

9 tonight.

10 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt. I'd

11 suggest starting there in the morning. 

12 I would ask could we get copies of the

13 prohibited acts that we just put together? Can

14 you have that emailed out to us?

15 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

16 MR. LATTANZI: Thank you.

17 MS. NOLL: Can we also get the Word

18 document that Laura has been working on? That

19 would be helpful since it's got a lot of

20 information that has been added.

21 MR. RAWALD: Yes, it's not a problem. 

22 And if you guys want we can ask to have it
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1 printed in the morning as well if you'd like. 

2 So what we'll do is we'll email out

3 the Word document, the PowerPoint slideshow with

4 the prohibited acts in it, and then we'll have

5 printed for the morning the Word document that

6 Laura has been updating as we've been going

7 along.

8 MS. NOLL: Is it the prohibited acts

9 and the definitions? I don't think we ever got--

10 MR. RAWALD: You definitely should

11 have an email out to you after the last meeting

12 from Jeremiah. So if you look back in your email

13 it's there. There should be two -- it was sent

14 out, but don't worry. I mean, we can send it out

15 again. It's not a huge problem.

16 MR. EISNER: All right. Anybody have

17 anything else? All right. Tomorrow morning, 9

18 o'clock. Same place.

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

20 went off the record at 4:36 p.m.)

21

22
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A

$2,500 126:7,14

$200 120:10,13,22

126:17 128:3 167:21

279:2,11 283:5

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$5,000 70:16

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163:17

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294:15 295:15 311:6

aspects 73:8

assembly 17:5 20:20

20:22 21:11 25:20

26:5,8,21 44:9,12,22

assess 112:10 128:18

136:17 138:22 163:2

219:19

assessing 112:16

128:14 167:15

assigned 301:21

assignment 83:9

assignments 3:4 51:14

51:17 56:18 81:8

assist 195:18

associated 23:15

146:22

Association 1:17 2:7

assume 33:6 51:21

100:2 153:17 232:16

assumed 267:19

assuming 50:11 234:3

assumption 266:13

assurance 292:16

assure 106:14

assuring 12:11

Atlanta 189:5

attached 26:15 156:5

215:19

attack 261:22

attempt 125:3,8

attention 25:14 170:10

173:2

attorney 290:10 291:6

audit 69:10 71:22 83:8

278:5

auditability 76:19

auditable 76:13

audited 66:7,12 74:13

authority 73:1,13

101:22 102:2 126:7

127:14 205:2 230:19

242:10 276:19 287:3

authorized 126:18

available 18:1 44:13

47:2 57:21 61:4 72:4

88:20 288:10 289:7

289:22

Avenue 1:11

average 148:8

avoid 162:10 221:12

253:11 283:7 284:18

291:16

avoiding 285:9

aware 25:8,12 62:4 75:6

75:11 145:15 148:22

173:19 177:13,18

217:5 240:22 244:3

309:19

awareness 93:14

awful 56:12

awfully 291:13

awhile 147:7,19 292:9

B

B 311:1

back 11:1 13:14 14:16

15:18 17:19 18:16

25:10 29:5 36:10 37:5

38:15 41:20 42:12

44:17 51:10,16 52:9

52:12 55:17 56:19

64:14 65:20 74:14

79:10 80:22 81:3,16

83:14 86:16 94:11

96:7 97:5 99:2 102:6

102:13 103:5 110:5

110:10 111:21 115:9

126:21 131:7 150:15

153:9,11,14 159:1

163:10,14 166:9

173:2 176:19 181:5

187:1,17 188:8,14,16

191:4 196:9,18 198:3

199:2 201:14 206:11

206:12 208:12 210:10

211:7 223:14 225:14

226:8 228:3 238:19

238:21 246:6 247:8

251:8 253:6 256:15

261:5,7 265:17

269:10 273:5,13

275:20 289:3 294:14

297:13 302:17 303:15
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

324

305:12 306:14 321:12

backdating 189:21

backed 100:8

backing 212:20

backside 223:22

backup 287:5

backwards 138:20

bad 13:10 77:11,13

78:17 79:2 144:8

180:14,16,18 211:14

211:15 224:12 300:9

300:14,17 313:5

balance 151:2

ball 34:9 133:11,12

BALLO 1:15 37:13

151:6 199:21 204:1

213:3,20 215:4

237:20 259:18 260:7

261:3 270:6 278:10

ballpark 312:12

ban 195:8,9

Band-aid 14:19

bandied 178:12

bang 306:13

bar 315:22

Barhydt 1:16 5:9,10,17

18:20 42:9

base 33:21 49:6

based 7:20 49:21 70:5

136:17 181:22 182:1

182:8 183:1,18

199:11 205:9 241:12

305:7

baseline 104:18 150:1

basement 7:1 8:7

basic 102:1 237:8

basically 5:13,20 7:2

8:9 12:19 17:9 34:14

43:19 130:13 143:13

185:15 234:19 257:13

257:17 258:1 262:10

306:2 315:13

basing 132:7 141:10

basis 71:18 140:16

155:18 167:19 183:6

241:20 263:21 278:3

batting 83:13

bear 95:19

bears 270:9,11

beat 195:9

beautiful 310:4

becoming 204:4 302:21

beginning 172:7 178:16

behalf 51:8 286:9

behavior 287:14 292:22

belief 137:11

believe 10:6 14:16 16:4

20:11 45:14 55:1

69:10 70:16 75:9

81:17 96:20 138:17

176:3,8 181:1 200:3

214:1 276:11 280:13

284:11 290:16 303:3

308:22

bell 76:18

belt 311:6,9,10 312:21

beneficial 170:1

benefit 30:9,17

benefits 80:10

best 35:8 49:4 52:5

55:22 83:2 98:20

133:19 175:9 244:19

245:2,2 281:18 320:3

bet 289:17

better 25:1 39:1,2 47:11

54:2 76:2 80:7 106:18

117:17 163:2,4

222:11 231:6 255:16

266:10 289:16 311:18

319:16

beyond 253:12,15,16

267:10 282:19 311:11

314:15

bid 38:7 201:5,5,5

big 36:12,22 41:7 63:10

64:1 66:13 81:1 89:9

114:9 199:15 212:5,6

212:19,21 260:7

262:7 265:5 266:17

306:9

bigger 41:2 196:22

biggest 144:12

bill 79:13,19 117:9,13

bit 22:4 33:10 37:17

42:19 43:17 45:10

63:2 67:19 112:8

116:8 118:6 127:6

151:1 230:6 232:11

255:22 256:4 311:21

bit-by-bit 65:3

black 127:15 153:12

blah 47:6,6,6

blow 158:12

blower 13:1

Bluffton 105:22

board 51:7 61:6 196:8

295:19

body 53:15

bolted 208:11

bone 53:12

book 104:12 105:8

boots 147:18

border 88:21 201:16

266:12 303:13,14

304:10,12 306:1

310:7

borders 300:1

boring 317:14 318:6

boss 83:22

bottom 22:7 82:21

87:17 115:8 265:10

290:9 315:21

bought 32:19 110:8

318:3

bounds 58:8

box 17:11 23:15 179:7

212:5,6,20,21 262:7

265:6 266:17 314:1,4

315:14

braised 13:9

branch 282:12

branches 310:17,19

brand 68:8 111:22

212:20 269:16 270:7

branded 68:7

brands 111:19

breach 192:14

breadth 180:2

break 51:22 99:2

163:20 164:3 168:9

197:9 217:12 238:17

238:21 239:8 310:13

breakdown 44:21

breaking 265:8

breakout 39:13

bright 170:14

bright-line 170:16

bring 57:11 71:5 75:19

76:4 86:16 103:14

109:12 183:9,17

187:17 241:11

bringing 58:2 121:11

216:14 240:1 262:4

broach 274:17

broad 186:16 199:20

202:6 210:2 211:12

broadly 98:16

broke 247:16

brought 25:14 41:12,22

74:15 77:16,16 90:11

90:12 99:11 116:10

116:13 213:12 231:15

248:11 297:21

brush 202:6

Bryan 2:4 17:1 20:4

23:16 25:17 26:2

29:19 30:21 34:4

38:17 40:10 43:3 53:6

92:8 110:22 184:5

186:17 188:10 196:12

196:22 255:13 256:7

256:10,12 261:8

262:5 264:2

Bryan's 21:22 196:13

bucket 98:14

buddies 184:17

buddy 202:8

build 29:1 61:21 302:9

build-out 301:20

build-outs 301:8,10

builders 188:21

building 189:17 190:3

190:22 191:3,6,8

201:8 203:5 251:9

313:14

buildings 313:15

built 9:8 10:10,18 15:9

89:20 301:8

bulb 57:12,16,22

bulbs 57:18 94:3

bulk 87:6 91:16

bullet 257:21 266:1

bullets 265:18

bumping 153:21

bunch 87:15 97:18

306:13

burden 65:6 85:20

275:15 276:4,5

289:20 320:5

burdensome 69:6

106:8

business 18:6 22:18

81:10 93:17 102:21

103:10,16 126:16

146:8,22 149:3,6,17

149:18 150:7 155:10

177:1,6 251:19 254:1

272:7 288:16,16

292:18 300:21 301:2

301:14 314:7

businesses 262:10

300:22

busy 274:9

buy 16:2 45:6,7 47:5,8

59:10 79:15 80:2,8,22

91:11,15 92:11,12,13

92:19 100:14 114:19

147:10 228:19 261:12

264:10 303:11

buying 157:7 238:6

buys 97:17 224:4

C

C 311:1

C3 47:4,5,10,15

C3B 47:6

C4 47:4,5

cabined 156:9

cabinet 11:2 66:10

calculate 34:4

California 1:18 35:10

69:2 126:3,6,16
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

325

179:10 286:1 307:5

319:6,10

California's 72:10

call 11:1 23:19,20 64:3

70:1,16 83:5 104:17

151:22 155:1 161:16

231:2 250:1 274:2

278:5 291:6

called 38:15 97:15

167:2 190:13 227:2

296:13

calling 23:18 27:16

104:11 262:17

calls 240:6

campaign 57:12,16,22

74:11

capabilities 276:3

capability 68:3 276:15

capacity 43:20 176:13

capes 111:16

capital 307:14

capture 269:16

car 302:16

card 223:8

care 155:17 190:20

205:3 228:9 299:5,19

careful 53:2 145:6

149:19 170:21

Carolina 105:8,22

301:14 307:9,10

309:1,4 310:3

Carrier 1:19 36:5 117:1

267:15 316:2

carries 146:9

carry 222:14 240:3

316:22

carrying 16:13 317:10

case 7:6 12:4 43:9

45:20,22 66:12 81:19

82:3 128:16 129:12

129:16 152:17 153:4

169:18,19 179:15

184:9,11 200:20

248:3 262:8 296:13

303:12

case-by-case 170:17

cased 25:21 43:6,8

44:20

cases 18:7 63:9,20 76:1

80:7 100:21 110:20

150:2 170:16 171:13

252:17 279:6 310:18

cash 80:20

casing 11:2

catch 161:4

categories 51:11

259:19 266:10

category 74:17 97:22

266:1,20

caucus 76:5 162:19

238:17

caucuses 163:12

caught 72:1 108:11

160:13 226:21 239:22

283:7,9

cause 71:21 145:8

161:18 174:8 209:9

209:14

caused 209:19

causes 85:17,19

causing 209:8,16

211:11

caveat 102:20 319:21

caveats 99:15

cavity 8:20 9:11 10:4,19

10:20 11:2

cease 62:11

CEC 69:21 126:7,9,12

319:8,16

center 301:21 304:9,11

307:5,9 316:8

centers 299:10,12

307:4 313:9 318:1

central 1:3 114:17

cents 70:17

CEO 5:1

certain 13:19 14:14

26:4 36:19 41:13 61:9

155:21 158:5 160:19

175:3 240:7 278:15

295:13 296:8 297:14

297:17

certainly 21:16 54:20

58:8 67:20 71:2,19

72:7 75:7 100:21

120:2 128:7,12 129:4

130:8 144:8,14

150:22 191:14 207:1

208:13,14 220:10

289:9,19 295:17

301:6 311:7 312:11

certificate 188:21 189:1

189:5

certified 27:17 28:10,15

29:4 45:12 46:6,17

56:5

certitude 147:21

cetera 7:6 8:6 33:17

44:5,5,6,10 258:11,11

259:1

chain 87:18 89:7 90:20

91:3,4 98:4 112:19

118:10 207:4,20

208:10,17 209:1

213:8 215:7 223:14

224:7 232:4 236:5

243:3 276:15

chair 109:11

challenge 134:3

challenged 278:4

challenging 62:5

chance 20:5 25:11

64:21 121:12

change 7:14 37:16 39:8

39:18 46:10 48:5 61:5

61:7 78:15 187:14

220:5 233:7 256:17

265:10 268:2,17

300:22 315:11,12

change-out 33:8

changed 36:11 46:2,2

152:13 268:12

changes 297:2

changing 8:10 270:2

301:15

channel 116:20 118:14

146:20 251:14

characteristics 31:14

charge 12:11 34:19

35:7,14 36:1 38:13

49:20 120:20 132:10

132:21 133:1,6

136:22 263:2 276:20

277:12 285:6

charged 118:1 241:3

284:2 319:11

charging 36:21 80:12

122:10,16 167:21

276:10 279:10 283:13

charitable 82:9

CHARLES 1:20 2:6

Charlie 31:19 40:8

59:14 81:2 83:11 86:8

120:18 134:20,21

135:6 137:19,20

152:15 158:10 160:6

164:18 167:1 178:5

179:1 187:20 193:20

195:6 211:2 266:6

267:4 270:12,15

281:17 287:16 294:6

304:17

Charlie's 144:7

cheaper 59:11 78:9,10

91:12 120:16 310:7

cheapest 77:21 79:15

cheat 71:21 74:22

check 64:21 89:20

130:3 252:19 253:21

294:17 295:11

checked 164:8

chew 42:19

Chicago 310:19

chimed 294:8

choice 79:14

choices 78:17

Chuck 40:11 77:16,16

86:22 87:1,4 90:11

104:4 106:16,17

134:20 144:5 169:13

172:3 193:20 202:2

206:17 208:4 253:22

265:15 266:6 267:6

281:17 287:16 288:14

289:19 292:10 294:8

Chuck's 267:5 292:1

chunk 146:12

Cincinnati 305:7,8,12

circulated 97:6

circumstances 169:20

169:22

civil 112:10,16 115:2

120:11,22 121:2

123:22 125:14 128:10

128:15,18 136:10,17

136:22 137:1,4

138:22 218:4 219:5

219:19 276:20 284:2

292:18 293:17

claim 67:17 149:15

clarification 25:4 54:14

113:9 120:19 127:13

128:18 140:15 226:17

270:19 273:9 287:21

288:6

clarified 21:17 123:8

clarifies 45:9

clarify 23:10 184:22

241:17

clarity 141:4,5 143:14

185:10 205:14 210:10

235:21 243:15

class 51:2

classes 68:6 114:16

191:20

classify 61:22

cleaner 233:2 264:4

clear 45:12 56:8 77:9

77:12 85:10 122:9

128:17 133:16 138:16

144:15 149:15 154:19

188:12 210:2 214:7

227:1,20 228:2

237:20 240:5 241:11

250:10,11,15 254:8

265:3 295:15 298:1

clearance 72:11

cleared 270:14

clearing 214:9

clearly 242:19 273:21

274:5

clever 68:20
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

326

clock 291:7

close 66:17 77:6 150:2

154:4 171:5 177:4

318:2

closed 150:3 318:5

closes 55:1

closing 179:2

clue 303:6

code 27:9 80:12 191:10

191:11

codes 319:4,12

codified 103:8

codify 73:5 145:4

coequally 53:11

coffers 59:18

Cohen 2:11 227:13

coil 5:6,14 6:4,5,18 7:8

7:9,11,18 8:4,9,19

9:12,15,15,17,20,21

10:1,2,11,12,19,20

11:5,14 12:7,20 13:1

13:7,15,20,22 14:2,9

17:10,11,15 18:18

19:18 20:11,19 22:11

23:2,21 25:20,21,21

25:22 26:10,14,16,19

26:21 27:20,22 28:6,8

28:9,17 29:22 30:8,12

30:17 31:7,12,13,16

32:2,5,11 33:5,14

34:16,22 35:13 37:19

37:20 38:2,5,8 39:18

41:22 43:7,8,14,16,20

43:22 44:12,20,22

45:3,17 46:5 47:3,9

47:10,13,14 53:4,4,10

53:20 54:3

coil-only 123:9

coils 3:2 4:22 5:22 6:2,3

10:7,18,22,22 15:4,14

16:5,12,14 17:7,19

18:3,10 19:13 23:18

23:20 24:1,4,9 26:22

27:1,21 28:3,21 35:5

36:20 37:11 41:10

collection 65:6

collective 170:5

collude 207:4

combination 7:19 9:17

9:22 71:15 291:15

come 11:6 18:19 19:5

20:2 38:7 43:2 49:7

60:7 70:7 84:21 86:9

88:17 93:12 94:18

99:2 103:17 119:19

141:17 143:3 157:21

162:3 163:10,14

175:2 179:4 188:16

196:9,18 206:12

220:2 223:22 225:13

238:19,21 247:1

248:15 250:14 252:14

279:8 285:3 289:11

291:19 293:3 295:6

302:17,20 306:14

comes 11:7 20:7 65:10

69:15 190:22 252:9

253:8

comfort 39:1 243:4

311:7,8,9

comfortable 67:5

103:18 171:20 203:12

232:10,19 239:20

coming 40:15 88:7

124:7,16 155:10

176:10 177:17 185:14

213:6 223:12 224:2

241:13 251:8

comment 17:17 22:15

23:15 24:7 29:20 35:3

39:9 42:20 50:4 54:6

54:20,22 58:17

110:14 117:5 118:18

138:8 166:20 220:3,6

227:5,9,12 250:19

262:6 268:21

commenting 21:6

comments 6:16 11:16

11:18 23:12,14 35:1

40:13 42:2 47:18 49:9

50:6,16 52:13,18

55:17 64:13 67:14

75:16 90:10 99:6,8

101:6 118:16 143:18

144:7 156:18 162:15

298:8 311:20 312:22

commerce 92:16

120:21 138:21 180:1

180:6,11 181:6,7,9

206:20,21,22 207:9

207:10,13 208:6,9

209:2 217:15

commercial 110:4

commercials 58:10

Commission 126:3

314:6 319:6,12

commissioned 69:22

198:12

commissioning 192:10

192:11 193:19 194:15

commit 242:7 295:15

commitment 243:12

commitments 91:18

311:16

committed 59:4 214:13

common 78:16 194:18

communicated 237:16

communication 223:21

community 83:22 91:20

170:22 277:22

compadres 42:18

companies 111:20

133:22

company 1:21 2:3 18:2

21:13,20 92:3 96:20

96:22 110:1 137:6,7,8

174:9 184:13 199:8

199:16 203:6 204:21

205:3,9 253:4,8,17

292:5 315:3

company's 97:13 98:2

compared 57:16 248:5

compelled 314:19

315:8

competence 102:9

competitive 302:21

competitors 15:2

175:17,20

complained 89:18

complains 152:4

complaint 104:10,17,19

complaints 63:16,21

105:19

complete 26:5 159:13

168:19 185:18 186:21

completed 191:8

completely 8:10 70:1

98:1 219:2 222:5

300:6 308:6

completeness 168:18

complex 186:10 191:7

233:22

compliance 69:14

72:10 89:2 94:10

96:16 114:1 127:18

127:19 129:9 131:13

135:13 136:16 151:14

176:2 183:7 187:4,7

286:3,5 315:8 319:8

319:14,17

compliant 69:20 70:10

70:10 79:21 80:13

88:20 107:21 108:9

109:6 110:11 113:7

113:15 114:8 115:6

119:22 128:20 135:1

135:2 142:17 144:20

168:1 187:9 192:4

198:19 233:18 292:20

298:4,15,22 304:4

309:5

complicated 161:13

178:18 201:11 231:17

231:18

complies 221:13

comply 130:5 161:11

161:12 191:9,10

219:12 281:11 314:12

314:20 315:4

component 10:8 17:10

20:15 21:2 41:15 46:6

components 6:5,8 27:6

28:11 29:2 43:15

48:14 186:3

comprehend 118:20

compressor 6:5 10:15

12:20,21 17:10 20:10

28:5,8 33:17 39:20

53:8

compressors 24:10,12

28:20 41:12,13 271:3

computer 66:10

conceivable 114:21

conceiving 151:10

concentrated 68:15

concept 75:16

conception 91:5

concepts 276:12

conceptually 109:7

concern 41:11 53:6

61:15,19 73:22 98:6

112:14 119:16 127:20

140:7 156:13 173:8

174:22 221:11 261:2

278:11 300:5 308:2,4

concerned 126:16

149:1 194:20

concerning 4:21

concerns 20:18 41:21

75:5,15 99:17 103:11

137:13 145:8 148:21

151:5 224:1 257:4

313:7,18

conclusions 20:3 320:2

concur 184:3

condenser 6:5 12:20,21

14:8 28:5,8,20 31:17

39:6,7,19 187:11

condensers 28:21

condensing 7:4 17:6

19:18 22:11 24:5,12

37:22 39:17 53:11

70:14 76:2 87:12

123:8 148:16 192:3

249:13 312:9,15

conditioner 1:3 77:20

78:21 271:18

conditioners 288:21

298:13

conditioning 1:20 8:17

32:17 70:13 114:17

271:14 289:13
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

327

conditions 32:15

condo 191:6

condominiums 186:7

conduct 130:13 131:20

132:2 138:13 139:4

140:2 142:4 193:16

217:5,14

conducted 282:12

conducting 126:4

confer 294:14

confidence 71:16,20

73:19 308:13

confidential 102:21

103:16

confirm 64:8

confirmed 63:7

conflict 25:5

conformity 217:16

confused 220:18 246:2

246:8 284:9 301:16

confusing 133:17

251:22 266:5

confusion 157:4 212:3

Congress 174:12

215:10 229:6 239:10

239:17

congressional 142:19

connection 192:7,8

consensus 158:6 216:5

216:7 227:7 262:1

275:17 277:22

consequence 218:10

291:18

consequences 3:8

101:11 134:16 165:22

184:7 215:17 285:8

consequential 148:18

consider 24:8 30:7 42:2

54:20 58:9 90:9

104:22 128:7,12

167:20 169:18 177:15

188:11 209:22 253:14

272:13 275:8

consideration 23:13

98:10 112:15 121:1

considerations 169:8

considered 11:14 30:10

139:8

considering 50:6 119:2

275:5

consistent 43:2 79:17

136:14 196:6 203:18

205:7 236:4 257:7

259:4,9

consoling 248:7

constitute 170:3 197:13

211:18

constitutes 170:2

172:21,22

constituting 216:22

constrained 278:19

constraints 24:16

construction 44:19

187:10 189:12 190:2

constructive 86:7,16

260:20

consult 282:17

Consultants 319:5

Consulting 2:12

consumer 13:11 15:11

15:22 16:1 39:16

78:13 108:8 109:16

109:19 110:8,10

212:19 258:9 264:10

266:18 270:8,11

consumers 258:3 268:3

cont'd 2:1

contact 88:4

contention 53:13

contest 134:4

context 135:18 142:9

216:1 239:21 240:17

contingent 141:11

145:18

continually 224:11

continue 5:19 14:19

41:9 48:1,5 56:19

58:14 127:16

continuing 28:17

146:22 289:22

contours 171:22

215:15

contract 183:14 212:5

223:6 266:17

contracting 180:22

181:1 199:8,15

204:21 205:2 299:15

contractor 20:14,19

38:6 44:3,14 59:7

67:4 74:20 77:10,11

77:13,18 78:3 79:20

80:12 81:6,19,20

82:22 83:1 87:15

88:10 89:11 91:14

92:11 93:19 96:13

98:15 104:20,21,22

120:4 129:14 130:1

130:15 135:1,5 137:6

137:7 140:5 141:7

142:18 143:13 147:2

152:1,4,7,18 153:1,2

153:5,21 154:1 155:4

155:10 165:22 167:16

167:22 179:19 180:15

183:18,19,21 184:8

184:10 186:14 194:14

197:4,14 200:5,7,15

200:16 202:4,7,12

204:2,5,21 205:16,18

205:21 206:4 207:1

207:19 208:11,13

210:12,17 212:7

217:21,22 221:13

222:20 223:12 224:3

224:21 229:10,13

246:19 247:12 248:15

248:20 249:2,12,12

257:10 258:2,20

260:10,13,13 261:15

261:16,19 262:14

265:11,13,18 267:13

270:13 303:13 304:19

304:20 305:6,14

306:5,6

contractor's 87:6 120:3

146:7 183:13,20

209:17

contractor-dealer

257:19

contractor/dealer

268:12

contractor/dealer/dis...

136:9

contractors 1:20 2:7

21:8 37:4 39:3 40:5

58:7 68:6 75:12 77:7

79:11 82:17,18 88:11

92:10,19 93:13 112:5

135:2 150:20 164:22

168:10 175:7 193:20

194:20 215:13 218:12

222:22 223:10 257:14

257:21 262:11,17

263:19 264:16 265:9

266:20 268:1 269:15

275:10 282:3 286:21

290:4 297:17 299:13

305:11 320:6

contractors/dealers

269:1

contrary 101:5

contrast 181:2

contributions 82:10

control 15:16 223:19

282:6

controls 2:4 17:2 27:6

38:18 57:15 92:9

conundrum 38:19

convenience 80:1

268:7

conventional 25:19

conversation 56:12

127:6 130:18 134:18

164:1,14 166:3

170:14 225:14 265:16

311:21

conversations 57:3

Conversely 79:20

convinced 83:18

convincing 313:2

cool 193:10

cooled 201:18

cooling 78:17 146:18

149:17 269:16

cooperate 133:20 207:5

cooperating 291:17

Cooperative 1:17

copies 102:22 320:12

copy 102:22 103:1

257:5

corollary 256:18

corporate 183:10

Corporation 1:19

correct 5:17 26:3 29:14

30:11 46:20 56:5,6

77:1,6 89:21 110:18

158:16 218:4 225:9

232:2,7 253:7 293:13

corrected 311:9

correcting 83:12

correctly 5:13 31:16

34:19 193:17 227:15

correspond 25:20,22

corresponding 182:15

cost 48:20 70:13,14,16

72:4 79:3,11 80:3,10

80:19 282:22 290:10

290:13 302:2,14

303:19,20 311:1

312:8,10 317:21

cost-effective 79:17

80:9

costing 317:21

costly 26:19 303:22

costs 282:21

Council 1:22 2:4

Counsel 1:16 2:3,11,15

count 134:9

counter 59:9 192:19

250:2

counters 68:9

country 181:19 306:8

309:5

couple 17:16 23:12

33:12 90:7 102:6

159:19 174:3 191:17

221:18 239:7 259:5

288:17 289:3 306:6

311:13

course 4:19 7:11 8:1

15:6 85:9 103:10

128:16 169:3 175:7
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

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195:22 220:5 277:6

court 42:13 230:9

284:15 285:1 293:19

293:21

cover 45:4 97:8 190:7

213:15 234:22 297:7

covered 94:22 130:9

201:3 216:18 217:16

271:14,20

covers 232:1,3 249:13

257:3 262:7

Covington 305:9,15

craft 159:10 281:17

Craig 2:13 29:21 30:1

Craig's 261:12

create 31:9,15 171:18

221:4 242:12 255:15

creates 8:7

creating 154:5,6 170:22

credit 80:17,18 124:9

crews 306:15

crimes 190:8 293:4

critical 36:18,21 157:20

166:2

current 53:22 54:8,9,10

191:10 200:1 275:3

278:20

currently 17:21 39:7

84:4,6 168:4,10

203:19 256:21 274:22

277:7 278:19 284:12

284:13

customer 59:9 110:4,5

customers 31:19 40:4

70:1,5,19 79:6,11

80:6 154:10 315:6

cut 74:22 154:4 274:9

D

D 311:1

D.C 1:11

daily 206:4 249:11

Dakota 93:7,8 304:13

304:14 318:9,10

Dallas 184:16 310:11

damage 310:9 311:3

Dan 220:9 227:13

dancing 211:8

danger 38:15

dangerous 162:8

DANIEL 2:11

data 35:6 60:8 61:3,10

62:17 63:3,18,22

66:21 68:16 78:22

147:13 278:3 312:8

database 69:13

databases 88:5

date 27:9 158:5 181:21

181:22 182:2,8,12,13

182:15,15,21 183:2,4

185:17 187:4,7

189:18,19 191:13,21

200:22

daughter 19:7

daughter's 268:5

Dave 35:18 108:13

DAVID 2:7

day 22:3 40:4 55:13

95:5 150:7 155:22

158:5 211:18 279:2,7

279:11,13 283:13

290:4,13,15 292:18

daycare 268:5

days 259:5 275:3 277:7

289:12,16 292:2

296:20 297:6 306:7

DC 301:20 307:12

dead 211:5

deadline 188:6

deal 12:10 52:20 54:10

61:9 66:13 94:1 128:9

139:15 153:7 177:1,7

177:9,19 239:18

241:2 248:5 249:11

249:18 272:22 290:9

300:3 316:15 317:3

dealer 91:9,10,13,20

96:13 98:15 120:2

125:8 140:4 141:8

142:18 152:5 197:4

197:14 200:15,17

202:4,7,11 205:16,18

205:21 206:4 207:19

210:11 224:21 246:20

247:12 257:10,22

258:2 265:11,13

266:18 267:17

dealer's 152:7

dealer-contractor

202:16 247:22

dealer/contractor

97:16

dealers 91:20 116:2

154:10 215:13 257:15

264:17 265:9 266:20

268:1 275:10 286:21

dealing 115:5 136:11

139:14 145:21 149:1

217:8 247:22 253:4

dealt 136:22 137:6

139:21

death 146:7

decades 301:8

December 189:3

decide 157:20 159:22

162:6 167:14 175:10

177:1 220:4

decided 159:19,20

281:8

deciding 50:6 121:2

169:8

decision 49:5 146:13

149:6 175:8 177:1,6

243:5 252:21

decisions 74:8 79:3

149:4

deck 302:15

decrease 34:20

deem 79:17

deemed 181:17

default 277:16

Defense 1:22

define 96:15 142:7

157:16 162:17 178:6

178:14,17 183:5

188:9 202:11 203:18

204:16 214:19 215:5

215:15 216:5,8

225:17 233:21 242:2

242:22 244:2

defined 96:13 145:5

171:19 173:11,12

195:2 197:1 202:18

204:5,10 210:15

226:4 228:6 239:20

240:6 241:19 260:19

269:19,21 271:2

defines 153:18 166:1

defining 98:13,14 165:9

174:1 188:11 198:13

198:16,18 204:13

215:22 216:1 240:16

243:7

definitely 34:20 65:11

65:15 104:16 122:2

148:6,11 230:17

245:2 321:10

definition 26:3 97:6

165:15 178:21 179:3

192:4 194:6 196:11

196:13,17 197:16

199:11,19 200:7

201:10 204:2,8,12

211:5 245:6 246:1

247:4 259:1 270:10

307:11

definitions 21:1 199:5

210:11,11 321:9

definitive 205:5,11

243:19

DEGITZ 2:12

degree 286:3

degrees 316:21

delay 159:19 187:10

292:14

delayed 187:9

delays 189:13

deliver 302:4

delivered 261:14

280:16 313:8

delivery 302:2

delta 79:3 302:15

demand 317:7

denies 306:4

DENNIS 1:17 294:17

denominator 78:16

deny 306:2,21

depart 320:8

department 1:1,15,16

2:2,11,14 17:17 19:21

41:17 42:7 49:13 50:8

52:12 54:2 55:3 58:9

93:2 101:22 105:14

107:12 113:19 120:12

123:1 125:3 128:6

129:8 130:21 136:6

136:15 138:12,18

139:7,13,18,22

140:12 144:18 151:17

156:14 167:4 171:11

175:15 177:8,8

186:20 191:3 204:20

205:1 218:6,11

272:10 273:11 275:12

278:13,22 280:10

282:18 285:2 292:1

292:13 293:15 295:18

314:5,10,16

Department's 59:2

151:13 171:3 205:5

243:15 290:21

Departmental 57:21

depending 48:12 49:5

55:9 147:21 297:1

depends 102:11 162:18

depressions 302:20

derive 111:20

describe 42:14 69:5

described 38:18 42:4

69:7 143:4 239:9

240:8 291:22 295:22

describing 219:17

descriptive 86:14,15

descriptor 21:7

deserves 232:7

design 14:5 18:8 96:2

designed 13:2,18,21

14:13 32:12 36:19

54:12 302:1,8

despite 21:17

detail 33:11 68:19 69:4

detailed 49:10 64:6
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

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193:19 281:21

details 49:11 72:6,14

137:22 160:5

determination 138:12

138:19 146:14 147:6

149:3,12 182:11

183:7

determinations 176:5

determine 69:19 92:22

246:18 286:5

determined 140:18

278:9

deterrent 74:12 75:12

308:18

develop 119:1

deviating 226:18

device 12:8 35:21 36:6

36:6

devices 26:7,15

devil 137:22

devising 314:20

devoid 222:5

devotion 239:8

diagram 39:10

diameter 36:8

diameters 36:11

dictate 84:16

difference 25:2 76:12

76:18 199:15 258:18

260:8 281:10 287:11

different 8:6 12:6 16:20

20:8 21:1 24:9 26:11

27:3 35:13 36:7 41:3

44:22 45:3 57:17 63:3

67:9 81:15 90:7 94:6

98:1 101:2,10 108:1

108:18 116:6 123:15

141:1,21 160:21

163:12 169:21 170:15

180:12 182:19 189:11

191:17 194:9 211:21

216:16 219:2 226:5

230:5 236:7 238:18

263:6,20 264:3

316:14,15 317:16,18

differentiate 17:4 23:17

24:20

differentiation 24:2,9

68:6

differently 273:7

difficult 37:21 118:19

118:21 159:10 231:11

251:20 252:1,6,11

253:11,18 280:20

299:8,22

difficulties 38:10

difficulty 38:4 249:9

250:6 254:6 299:2,6

299:16

digging 145:22

digital 15:17

diligence 288:11

dime 152:19

direct 17:22 185:6

222:22 254:2 263:17

263:21 265:22 287:3

direction 31:8 134:13

220:5 293:1

directly 61:10 67:6

237:22 261:18

directors 61:6

disagree 11:7 73:18

163:13

disagreement 30:19

disaster 37:2

discharge 192:15

disclose 62:7

disclosed 175:15

disclosing 168:22

disclosure 81:14,18

82:4

disconnected 246:1

discontinued 46:18

47:1 48:18

discontinuing 28:16

discretion 142:2 156:14

166:6 279:5 292:14

discuss 4:9 51:16 55:6

86:14 103:6 127:16

128:11 144:2 172:5

178:4 274:21

discussed 7:21 58:11

65:4 102:18 108:2

136:5 155:22 167:17

170:13 186:19 187:17

189:14 216:6 219:21

274:20 280:12

discussing 49:18 53:3

124:18 127:11 164:7

171:21 174:3 274:16

298:1

discussion 3:3 41:10

99:10 101:8,17 108:3

138:6 143:8 157:13

170:7 171:17 174:5

180:20 184:2 192:21

206:19 220:13 232:8

246:11 255:19 256:2

262:6 283:19 285:21

discussions 185:13

199:4 243:16 266:8

disease 232:11

disgruntled 152:19

dispel 239:11

dissenting 55:16

distance 134:9

distinction 81:13 90:4

distinguishing 277:1

distribute 59:1 113:2

180:5 217:15

distributed 113:3

120:21 207:9 229:5

319:3

distributing 213:7,8

218:12 313:11

distribution 20:13

91:15 92:14 118:14

125:6 146:20 180:1

180:11 181:7,8

206:10,21,22 207:8

207:13 208:6,9 209:2

223:2,10,18 228:8

230:13 231:1 233:11

234:15 235:11 257:16

299:10,12,22 300:19

301:9,18,21 303:19

304:9,11 307:4,5,9,15

313:9 315:6 316:8,17

317:9,14 318:1,8,15

distributor 16:14 44:9

60:5,13 61:2 62:16

96:14 129:15 140:4

141:9 142:20 143:12

173:12 175:4,6,20

197:7,10 205:15,19

206:1,7 207:17,18,22

208:2 209:12 211:9

213:4,19,21 214:22

215:8 221:6,17,20,22

222:6,19 223:6,13

224:6,20 225:3 226:4

231:19,21 233:16,16

236:9,16,17 237:14

246:17 248:6 257:9

265:20 270:22 280:11

304:14 309:3 310:15

314:13 318:12

distributor's 142:21

143:6

distributors 15:3 58:7

59:4 67:5 98:16 112:4

116:1 117:12 125:7

143:4,8,17 165:1

214:10,20 215:5,13

217:14,15,19 218:3

218:16 223:1,15

228:4 234:5 236:3

245:16 256:19 257:14

263:5,14 275:10

281:1,11 282:11,17

286:21 290:5 297:14

297:17 298:17 300:22

301:1 304:20 307:14

310:19 314:14

diverge 221:3

diverged 99:12

divergent 83:22 145:7

dock 250:9

docket 24:18

doctor 78:5

document 19:17 43:4

53:15 55:5 320:18

321:3,5

documentation 39:10

39:13 81:21 295:7

documents 102:6

DOE 3:4,7 4:21 10:6

16:4 17:4,14 24:8

34:6 37:10 42:2 66:13

71:17 73:1,3,20 76:15

77:3 81:21 83:19

100:3,13,20 110:17

115:4 126:17 127:13

127:19 134:17 150:19

164:16 168:10 169:14

169:18 170:4 172:9

172:14 173:17,20

174:8,15,17 176:4

195:3 218:2 219:8

225:10,15 241:3

242:10 250:6 271:13

274:22 276:18,19

278:3 287:2 293:7

DOE's 73:12 126:9

241:18

doing 27:15 31:1 32:16

40:5 66:8 81:9 85:21

86:21 89:8,9,12,16

91:19 93:3 94:15

102:12 104:21 106:11

111:2,17 126:15

139:17 156:7,10,11

182:20 190:12 196:14

202:15,16 214:15

215:3 217:6,7 219:9

223:17 235:22 241:8

244:10 255:2 267:13

272:7 313:21 314:11

314:22

dollars 13:12 221:19

283:13 290:3

dominant 276:1

donated 82:10

door 93:17,17

Doria 1:18 137:18 138:9

138:9 140:8 157:10

174:19 182:5,17

184:20 189:22 199:1

202:10 210:5 233:19

DOT 99:22 100:3

double 121:18 122:9

131:1,7,17 159:1
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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double-charging 133:5

double-check 61:17

doubling 131:9

doubt 15:20 88:15

Doug 2:2 4:19 5:3,10

7:20 21:4 50:17 52:17

53:18 54:5,22 55:8

56:21 58:18 64:4 65:1

66:5 67:21 70:22

72:17 74:2 84:3 91:7

94:1 96:10 97:4 98:5

99:9 100:6 103:22

104:13 105:21 108:13

108:20 112:6 117:19

120:12 125:16 127:10

128:8 131:6 133:18

134:19 136:3 139:10

141:20 144:16 146:4

149:9 151:3,8 154:22

155:19 161:16 162:4

164:8 166:3,22

169:14 170:4 172:17

176:18 179:21 183:8

184:11 186:18 188:7

188:18 194:22 203:11

204:19 205:4 209:4

212:10 214:5 218:4

222:12 225:9 228:5

228:13 230:16 236:11

238:8 239:6 245:5

254:14 280:3,5

281:14 286:10 287:7

289:11,13 290:2,19

308:7,10 319:1

Doug's 18:16 138:16

163:5

downstream 217:6

240:9

downwards 119:6

draconian 160:17

162:14

draft 23:11,11 24:6 50:4

54:6

drafted 54:9,21 55:11

drain 26:16 43:22 45:4

dramatically 201:2

draw 173:1

drive 134:4 302:15,16

driven 78:15

driving 250:19

drop 26:8 152:18

drove 253:18

drum 93:17

dry 38:19 39:7 49:20

148:15 189:3

drywall 189:3

duct 8:5,6,8

due 84:20 146:10

165:10 288:10 290:16

duration 278:9

duty 192:15

E

eager 291:5

ear 226:22

earlier 22:2,14 40:11,13

117:11,12 173:4

176:21 188:8 206:9

219:20 226:18 227:2

228:14,17 310:22

early 108:11 163:21

164:3 169:7 170:14

ears 219:16

Earthjustice 1:15 37:14

151:7

easier 65:7 67:3 95:4

234:9 243:5 291:19

316:6

easily 145:20 303:15

313:12

easy 42:22 47:5 55:13

117:2 145:17 178:17

210:20,20 234:4

241:5 252:8,20 288:2

288:9 289:8

eBay 97:2

echo 110:15 144:7

economic 39:4 49:4

312:14

economical 316:19

economically 302:5

economics 311:22

312:19

economy 2:5 276:6

edits 257:6

education 201:13

282:16 319:13,18

EER 122:20

effect 108:16 191:11

312:4

effective 68:18 72:3,22

84:9 98:18 104:15

105:10 130:21 149:22

158:18,20 159:7,8,13

160:8 161:4,7 162:13

181:21 182:3 237:19

290:22 311:2

effectively 148:3 176:4

318:14

effectiveness 72:10

efficiency 7:3 30:15

31:6 32:3 71:19 73:19

79:18 191:1 193:2

229:21 233:13 234:14

235:8 245:12 271:21

302:1 310:9

efficient 2:5 32:22 39:1

69:18 80:6,9 120:8

198:6

effort 72:15 125:15

128:6 133:2 135:11

eight 13:11

Eisner 1:12,14 4:3,17

11:18 23:5 25:3 29:17

29:21 30:4,19 31:5

32:3 35:1 36:13 42:13

47:17,21 49:14 50:15

51:1,9,20 53:14 54:22

56:15 64:12 65:22

67:14 68:22 72:2

90:10 94:1 95:13 99:1

99:6,21 100:4 101:7

104:2 114:9 118:16

120:9,14 134:14

138:7 143:18 152:10

156:18 158:6,16

159:11 161:2 163:8

163:19 166:20 172:4

174:6 181:13 192:11

192:16 193:7,12

194:1,5,8 198:8,15,20

205:13 206:6,13

207:16 210:21 213:16

218:18 219:1 228:3

228:13 229:1,12,22

230:6,12,22 231:18

232:14 233:14 235:4

235:14 238:16 239:3

245:4,8 246:12

248:22 252:7 253:8

268:18 271:7 273:2

274:13 276:22 286:8

297:9 298:8 309:22

312:22 313:6 318:17

318:20,22 320:4

321:16

either 8:4 69:12 80:1

87:22 96:13 98:13,13

110:20 142:7 150:4

171:12 173:17 225:12

elaborate 62:9 282:10

Electric 1:17

electrical 192:9

elements 161:7

eliminate 17:18 308:21

313:4

Elizabeth 1:22 75:20

81:20 82:2 91:22

277:14 283:20 297:20

298:9 309:6 311:6

313:1 316:8 318:17

Elizabeth's 313:7

Ellis 51:5

email 319:19 321:2,11

321:12

emailed 320:14

embrace 309:15

emphasis 115:21

employ 307:14

employee 152:20 181:2

253:18

employees 250:4

306:11

employment 205:1

294:5

enact 156:21

encompass 209:7

211:12

encourage 79:1 142:13

encouragement 290:11

endemic 206:3

ends 17:8 273:3

energy 1:1,15,16 2:2,4

2:11,14 30:9,17 39:2

57:19 120:13 123:1

126:3 140:12 191:1

193:2 198:6 209:12

217:17 234:14 302:5

311:4 314:5 315:12

315:19 316:2 319:6

Energy's 113:19

enforce 96:3 225:21

enforceable 141:16

191:22 243:11

enforced 19:22 255:5

enforcement 1:3 62:2

67:22 68:18 72:20

93:14 97:14 126:5

127:2 130:21 138:17

149:22 158:19,20

159:7,8,13 160:8

161:8 162:13 166:5

191:3 202:17 225:8

236:13 237:19 247:2

247:3 282:22 296:6

296:19

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engaged 90:13 138:21

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engineering 36:2 40:2

English 255:1

enhances 34:2

enormous 76:11,12

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308:6 314:11

ensuring 298:20

Enterprises 2:7

entire 307:15

entirely 121:6

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261:10 270:17 296:11

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184:13 203:9 214:16

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296:21

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108:21 144:22 147:16

152:10

envisioned 298:3

envisioning 104:10

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196:16 211:5

EPCA 199:19

equal 18:15

equally 128:16

equals 202:7

equipment 12:10 17:19

54:16 79:7,16,21

91:10,16 93:20,21

97:2,18 108:16 110:6

172:13 188:5 195:8,9

198:11 250:22 268:6

269:16 306:11,21

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ERP 282:20 292:9

error 83:12 152:13

errors 153:5

especially 88:17 147:20

287:16 289:3 300:1

317:2

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established 70:8 121:9

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establishing 171:4

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evaporator 5:22 6:4 7:5

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10:19 13:1,3,6,14,19

13:22 14:2,14,15,17

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140:17

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164:4 207:12 215:18

239:19 250:17,21,22

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everybody's 151:2

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evidence 84:1 140:2,3

140:13 149:7 151:14

232:16 249:1 278:5

evolve 98:8

ex-employee 253:16

exact 15:4 188:2 195:15

267:1

exactly 19:6 44:19,21

65:2 93:15 145:15

163:1 268:17 292:8

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example 6:21 8:14 9:2

12:2,18 15:8 45:18

48:3,15,15 158:17

159:17 189:6 213:12

216:17 250:3 268:5

304:18 305:2 307:2

311:17 313:22

examples 6:13,18

excellent 276:2

exception 201:9

exceptions 191:19

251:9,10

exchange 134:11

exchanger 48:16,21

excluded 11:4 37:10

excuse 216:20 316:4

execute 101:1

executed 227:9

exempted 96:15

exhausted 88:19

exhaustive 82:19

exist 307:7

existed 319:17

existing 11:1 17:11

26:21 130:9 131:4

199:11 313:17

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expand 20:5

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expect 179:4 286:2

expectation 33:4

expected 191:10

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experience 69:10

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extremely 58:22 62:4

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face 197:5 218:7 317:15

faced 8:3,10

faces 317:17 318:15

facie 232:16

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facility 89:20 305:18

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fact 11:4 15:10 85:17

113:14 119:10 129:1

129:7 140:13,20,22

143:3 149:21 183:19

185:1 189:19 216:17

218:10 223:5 231:8

233:9 250:18 260:19

260:22 275:4 290:17

299:9,18 303:5

309:19

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factorized 171:14

factors 49:6 170:13

171:4,9,18 253:14

factory 263:1 307:8

facts 172:15

factual 15:1

fail 10:11,12 114:1

275:1

failed 10:16 16:16

29:11 44:7 279:12

failing 274:19 275:11

276:20 277:12 285:6

fails 6:8 12:5 23:2

failure 13:4 44:4 277:15

278:12,21 279:18

failures 31:4

fair 42:20 149:13 170:8

190:1 226:10 227:3

244:16 273:10,12

274:16 284:7 294:15

fairly 175:3 205:8

fairness 129:22 168:15

faith 125:15 128:5

fall 74:20 114:1 118:9

129:21 134:12

falls 93:15 223:20

familiar 9:3 196:2

family 41:7 77:21

fan 12:21 28:8 209:6

fans 28:20

far 15:18 27:8 31:20

43:18 60:17 84:10

102:12 172:4 188:12

212:16 242:9 263:10

263:10 272:10 280:6

290:11,13 299:15

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fast 7:7 55:3

fault 107:16 120:3

233:16

favor 312:1

FC 43:6,14,20

FC18 44:14 46:7

FC18A 45:12,18

FC18A4E 43:19

fear 71:22 282:18 290:7

fears 61:12

federal 15:12 57:6 62:2

71:16 79:7 132:16

179:11 314:5

feedback 244:17

feeder 87:17

feel 10:7 24:2 54:7,18

66:21 67:5 68:15 76:7

88:5 97:7 103:18

105:1 106:9,18

143:22 173:5 177:4

255:20 266:9 276:17

278:1 279:17 291:18

291:18 308:16 311:18

313:2,3

feeling 83:15,19 84:11

207:21 276:7 287:22

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feelings 83:22 312:18

feels 220:10

felt 76:5 217:2

Fernstrom 1:18 35:9,17

69:1,2 71:13 72:5

73:17 75:3 79:4 126:1

179:9 180:19 181:8

181:15 182:10 184:1

189:16 190:21 285:22

286:22 319:1

ferret 109:9

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field 13:7,8 20:13 26:18
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69:10 74:5 75:8

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figure 112:19 116:3

119:4 120:15 133:2

133:20 229:6 306:18

figured 232:12

figuring 116:19

file 66:10 87:10 288:18

288:20 296:12

filing 297:1

fill 142:2,22 282:4

filled 142:1

filters 271:3

final 55:7,13 149:2,11

208:8 210:10

finalized 55:20 97:10

finally 11:9

financial 77:19 125:12

133:22 295:7

financially 244:8

financials 49:4

find 67:20 68:21 69:16

74:18 78:4 88:13

89:15 95:6 109:1

112:9 114:7,10,15,21

119:6 123:20 125:3

133:20 144:19 146:2

154:2 169:15 174:20

183:21 194:13 195:14

195:15 211:4 223:13

223:16 248:15 279:9

284:16

finding 74:16 113:19

134:17 136:7,10,20

137:11 139:6 140:6

144:21 147:14 167:9

172:9,14 173:17

174:17 215:20 316:18

findings 145:2 297:11

finds 153:6 174:16

fine 120:9 225:7 243:6

281:8 287:3 290:4

291:17 295:4,12

305:3

fines 120:19

finish 160:4

finished 19:5 20:20

21:11 26:3,8,12 27:1

27:2,7,10 39:14 43:6

43:21 45:6,15 46:3

47:2

fins 13:8

firefighter 202:15

fireman 202:9 232:5

firm 70:1 180:22 181:1

first 4:18 6:17,21 11:9

12:2 22:8 23:9 51:1

56:18 89:13 90:19

100:4 115:7 122:1

134:17 166:6,15

170:9 174:18 193:5,7

193:22 194:12,19

196:15 205:13 213:2

258:14 269:22 271:9

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165:7 169:21 191:8

191:11 223:15 245:7

fix 14:1 108:7,11 237:4

320:6

fixed 12:8 13:9 110:21

fixing 23:19

flagrant 148:18

flaws 320:1

flesh 127:6

fleshed 178:21 240:10

flexibility 73:6

flip 218:15

floor 11:16

flow 34:1,14,15 80:20

flown 305:8

flubbing 220:10

fly 305:9

focus 86:1 202:12

239:12 241:7 245:4

focused 73:7 161:8

179:12 180:4 197:1

241:10

focuses 261:8

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FOIA 103:3

fold 154:11

folder 288:18,19

folks 40:14 54:17 57:1

57:2 59:22 61:14

62:15 63:7 65:19 71:5

71:11 74:8,13 82:14

83:3 85:3 86:19 90:17

94:13,16 95:11 97:5

99:12,14 101:21

103:12 115:1 118:5

178:13 187:18 203:22

220:21 222:11,21

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241:12 255:17 264:4

270:3 274:17 275:8

279:4 283:7 284:4

285:11 287:15 317:2

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71:18 84:15 106:1

124:8 133:13

follow-up 71:22 73:21

291:21

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following 192:1 200:13

200:17 202:5 213:7

297:16

follows 133:15

food 223:14

fool 161:22

foot 56:22

football 79:10

footprint 9:6

force 16:1 18:1

forced 80:8

foreclosing 216:13

foreign 95:13,14

forget 36:9 228:14

304:19,21

form 138:21 272:11,12

289:8

formal 194:16 276:6

format 43:13

former 152:19

formulate 23:13

forth 79:10 303:15

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fortunate 18:20

fortunately 18:19

forward 7:7 21:4 60:7

84:1 86:18,20 106:21

138:13 139:7 197:8

203:18 219:15 239:21

246:10 281:19

fought 34:3

found 89:17 107:20

109:5 139:17 153:2

173:21 174:8 225:2

292:12

foundation 191:7

four 264:7 265:8,17

266:10

fourth 266:1

fourth-hand 252:4

frame 65:12

frames 160:16

framework 276:14

frankly 95:3 183:2

friend 77:7

friendly 145:20

friends 16:7

front 5:7 45:3 269:20

270:4

fruitful 255:18

FTC 216:19,20 315:12

fuel 302:1 310:8

fulfill 285:16

full 185:18 193:18

291:1 294:4

fully 43:6 44:20 90:13

145:14 256:12

fulsome 147:19

functioning 150:6

functions 207:20

furnace 7:3,6 8:21 9:4

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48:15,17 81:16,17

83:13 189:2

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112:8 118:17 151:14

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233:20 288:4 298:16

future 54:11 241:12

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Gary 1:18 35:9 68:22

69:1 70:22 72:2 73:17

75:3 78:2 79:5 126:1

179:9 189:16 285:22

286:22 319:1

Gary's 75:16

gas 7:3

gasoline 311:3

gather 59:22

gauge 279:16

GCs 300:3

gee 34:6

general 1:16 2:2,11,15

33:22 92:6 137:16

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generally 44:4 184:9

generation 44:18 46:8

geographic 301:22,22

Georgia 189:6

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getting 34:1 38:7 42:1

55:15 72:14 84:1

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94:14 96:1 103:12

122:4 152:12 157:17

162:10 166:8 174:6

181:4 211:7 220:18

226:17 235:21 237:8

238:9 246:10 268:4

291:3 308:14 310:22

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GIBBONS 1:19 36:4

116:22 117:4 118:7

118:13,18 188:18

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give 20:5 50:17 52:1

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150:12,13 156:7

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given 18:18,18 51:14

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gives 16:20 208:21

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giving 78:5,6 84:12

139:14 253:13 285:19

308:10 312:21

go 4:11 7:15 8:12 9:13

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22:15 23:18,21 24:17

25:10 27:7 28:6,11

32:12 37:5 43:21

44:17 50:5 51:2,10,16

51:22 52:12 55:17

56:17,19 64:14 66:2

81:3 86:20 89:22

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97:1,5 99:21 101:11

101:20 102:15 103:5

110:5,9 112:7 113:1

121:7 125:7 134:16

137:4,15 142:13

145:19 147:11,22

151:16 153:13 155:4

155:13 160:1,3,5

166:13 168:17 173:2

188:14 191:4 201:5

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228:3 234:5 235:10

238:1 244:22 256:15

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266:10 273:4,13,19

280:15 284:14,17,18

284:19 285:1,5 289:3

290:12,17,18 291:1

291:10 293:1 297:13

298:16,19 306:13

309:3,4 310:5 313:15

317:6,17

goes 22:12 69:8 74:14

89:1 127:8 136:4

184:16 189:2 224:3

247:8 270:22 293:19

305:12

going 5:10 7:2 10:3

11:1 12:9 14:3 17:9

17:19 20:19 21:5

24:19 29:20 30:16

32:1 33:6,8 34:2,14

34:16,17 35:7,8,12

37:1,21 38:3,13,14,14

39:12 41:19 48:10,15

50:13 51:15,21 55:14

56:21 59:10 60:3,9,18

62:7 63:14,15 67:6

68:2 71:8 72:20,22

73:1,3,5,6,16,20

74:13,15,22 78:3

81:16 82:8 84:14 85:8

85:11,12,18 87:10,19

88:13,20,21 89:1,16

90:7,8 92:18,21 93:17

94:14 95:11,18,20

100:1,10,11,15,20

104:10 105:4,12

106:15 107:17 111:2

111:13 114:19,20

115:8,9,14 116:2

117:16 118:19 119:6

119:18 121:19 124:9

129:8 130:22 131:2,3

132:5,9,10,19,21

133:20 135:10 138:3

138:13 139:3 141:19

142:13,22 150:9,14

151:21 152:6 157:1,4

157:16 160:11,20,22

162:7,8,9 163:5 166:2

175:10 184:14 185:7

187:3,8,8 189:18

190:12 193:15,21

195:15 196:19 199:2

201:13,19 203:7,8

208:18 212:19 213:1

213:9 214:3 215:7,19

216:5,8 217:6 218:3

218:11 219:5 221:14

221:15,16 224:6,11

225:10,16,16 229:3

231:10 232:21 236:8

236:12,13,14 237:18

237:22 239:21 243:3

243:8,12 248:12,17

249:3,4,15,22 252:3

254:19 255:4,6

256:16 257:19 258:21

262:13,15,21 263:3

263:10 265:1,2

266:14 267:1 279:1

279:10 283:12,16

286:2 289:4 296:7

297:5 298:21 300:3

301:13 302:2,13

303:2,4,17 304:4,7

308:5,15,17,18 312:9

312:12 314:21 316:6

316:13 317:21 321:6

good 4:3 21:11 26:8

27:2,7,18 42:17,21

47:3 57:11 66:18 71:9

71:9 82:19 83:1,13

86:20 87:22 91:7

125:15 128:5 135:9

139:15 144:9 153:11

158:5 161:4 166:9

191:15 204:6,15

223:17 250:8 251:12

254:11,13 271:22

273:14 276:2 299:3

Goodman 2:3 49:17

goodness 254:17

goods 20:20 26:4,12

27:1,10,16 39:14 43:7

43:21 45:6,15 46:3

Goodwill 82:11

gotten 52:17 72:11

government 57:6 61:4

61:12 62:8 66:19

71:17 84:13 196:2

governs 176:6

grace 187:5 190:18

282:14

graces 153:11 166:9

grain 62:18

grants 58:11

gray 16:3 156:22

178:20

great 51:3,4 54:6 55:11

103:19 133:18 187:8

251:5

greater 290:11,13

greatest 263:9

ground 147:18 173:10

174:2,20

group 1:3 4:19 26:13

40:2 60:12 72:9,13

86:18 95:1 103:15

171:16 206:9 216:5,7

226:9,12 227:7

242:13 250:21 267:19

279:17 281:19 285:20

319:4

guarantee 61:6 316:11

guard 239:22

guess 11:9,10,15 16:3

23:7 35:8 64:15 65:16

83:5 108:21 117:20

121:14,20 123:16

125:18 130:20 135:17

151:7 158:3 160:15

165:17 169:14 172:2

175:12 176:19 177:20

180:1 184:11 217:19

225:22 247:6 262:17

265:12 267:7 276:16

278:10 287:8 298:11

300:18 304:2

guidance 4:21 5:20

11:4,6 16:20 17:3,13

19:17 20:12,21 21:4,6

21:14 22:8 23:11,15

23:17 24:6 30:13,22

31:9 37:11 41:10 42:1

49:21 50:4,12 53:21

54:4,7,8,9,21 55:4,11

56:4 179:3 218:2

315:21

Guide 209:12 315:12,19

guilty 153:3 185:8

295:1

gun 147:1 201:20

gut 276:7 312:3,7,18

guy 85:2 87:14,22

89:15 105:3 171:7

184:18,19 207:2

240:22 262:22 272:3

274:9 282:7

guy's 173:20

guys 16:8 48:1 60:15

63:2 65:21 74:3 86:21

98:17 116:7 125:22

162:18 176:15 188:17

214:13 226:1,14

252:14 266:6 268:7

274:1 282:4 309:19

320:22

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half 43:19 280:18,19

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hammer 294:10,13

hand 78:7 149:5 156:15

156:15 168:22 277:18

handle 89:15 103:16

205:14,18 212:4,22

303:22 304:1,9,15,15

316:14

handled 29:19 222:18

handles 293:15

hands 222:4 300:9

308:14

hang 159:1 207:11

happen 84:14 87:19

90:8 121:12 131:3
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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happening 42:14 74:4

200:21 247:19 300:12

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happens 91:8 97:1

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happy 25:13 41:7 53:19

96:5 194:10 237:3

harbor 177:16

hard 5:5 67:1 88:13

170:16 213:5 246:18

246:20 252:17 279:9

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harder 91:19

HARDI 2:13 57:10

58:19 60:11,20,21

62:14,15 144:1 226:7

261:6 280:4 282:10

288:8 290:20 311:17

Harvey 2:4 11:19,20

12:13 14:4 16:4 18:13

25:15 27:12 33:2

34:13 36:10 40:16

41:6 43:7 53:16 56:10

67:15,16 69:1 75:14

81:3 83:11 100:1

134:10 146:4 148:14

151:4 153:14 168:9

191:16 192:19 196:12

196:12 232:9 264:13

275:12,13 276:17

283:21 287:21 288:15

289:18 294:2 302:11

311:5

Harvey's 17:20 83:10

278:11

hassle 284:18

hat 111:14 207:11

232:10

haystack 106:13

he'll 306:11

head 59:14 62:13,19

64:11 88:3 95:21

116:9 119:13 147:1

174:4 178:2 201:20

220:15 248:18,21

261:20 265:6

headed 85:10

header 256:21

heads 105:3 250:12

headway 86:4

hear 4:14,15 5:5 30:2

74:2 79:5 103:22

142:21 149:9 151:3

226:8 247:7 249:20

252:3,5 253:13

254:14 267:4 311:6

313:10

heard 5:13,18 22:1,19

50:21 57:14 99:14

119:13 154:8 165:12

194:11 230:2 275:16

277:6 280:18 283:20

286:11,15 287:19,22

311:16

hearing 38:10 101:5

191:17 211:1 287:15

heat 36:17,18 37:5,9,11

48:16,21 77:20

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heating 2:5,10 78:17

269:15

heavily 21:21

heavy 176:4 290:4

height 289:13

held 98:3 135:22

184:14 215:1 222:7

236:8 244:5 258:21

help 26:1 27:4 63:19

96:3 116:2,2 118:13

124:14 164:14,15

238:17 255:16,22

292:15 315:7

helped 21:16 75:20

209:14

helpful 11:21 14:21

18:14 27:13 49:12

58:22 59:13,15 63:11

64:1,2 137:12 144:8

150:18 169:16 188:1

242:16 254:14 274:7

280:5 281:16,22

282:4,8 288:13

289:19 320:19

helping 59:5

helps 39:11 106:17

283:16 291:15

Henderson 34:5

hesitant 121:21

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94:19 100:13 102:5

102:20 103:21 104:20

105:21 113:1 124:8

215:11 221:12,22

227:8 240:22 260:3

296:18

high 38:22 69:11 79:18

114:6

higher 30:15 31:7

181:18 251:1

highlight 43:5 45:1

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hinges 308:12

history 111:21

hit 318:11

Hmm 198:15

hold 66:17 223:5 244:7

295:10

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10:3,20 21:21 26:22

152:5 185:21,22,22

193:10 201:14 264:20

268:8

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39:5 40:7 77:17 78:4

193:13 212:6 261:11

261:14,19 262:14,20

265:22 266:12 303:5

homeowner's 77:19

202:8

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92:19 263:4,17

homes 25:18 191:20

homework 3:4 51:13,17

56:18 81:7 83:9

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honor 109:19

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honoring 92:17

hook 248:5 261:17

hooked 186:3,10

198:12

hooking 187:11

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hope 68:20 96:14 116:1

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75:22 78:6,12 190:8

201:15 285:13

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37:18 87:18 91:15

92:14 100:14 180:17

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HUD 25:4,7

HUD-approved 8:21

huddle 230:17

huge 209:6 244:21

317:10 321:15

Hugh 34:5

humidity 33:18 34:2

hundred 290:3

hungry 163:9

hurdle 79:22 189:12

Hurst 2:12 42:16,16

91:6,6 92:3,5 96:7,10

96:10 108:5,7 109:12

111:13 113:9,11

124:17,19 125:2

211:22 212:2,18

265:5,7 266:3,9

270:18,18 271:11,19

272:20 273:8 307:1,1

310:1,1 313:19,19

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212:1 239:14 241:6

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identified 52:7 152:11

identify 70:9,18 200:2

ignore 285:18

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illegal 78:7 160:13

172:12 178:7 209:2

261:17 265:3

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illustrate 52:13

images 232:21

imagine 65:14 83:21

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impact 133:22 301:3

302:12 303:1

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impacts 170:18

implication 146:10

implications 146:19

240:8

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importance 128:1

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63:5 72:17 74:9 85:15

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141:4 142:7,14 163:7

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182:18 184:21 190:1

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291:11,20 293:20

injunctive 218:5 219:6

244:9

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229:14 230:4 231:2

232:12,14 233:17

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11:7 12:3 33:15 38:5

80:13 94:13 95:20

131:22 142:16 151:11

156:8 167:22 178:6,7

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179:5,15,18 180:9

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184:22 185:5,17

186:13 189:19,20

191:13,18,22 192:2,7

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232:17 233:10 234:12

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245:10 246:4,6 258:4

258:10 267:13 269:3

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installations 151:19

152:8 160:13,14

167:17 186:20 320:6

installed 6:11,22 7:22

38:1 49:6 106:22

107:8,13,21 112:17

112:20 115:6 116:4

117:21 118:9 119:4,9

119:20 121:13,17

122:5,7,19 123:6

128:21 133:21 172:12

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183:20 184:18 185:7

185:20 186:11 188:3

188:9,11 193:11

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209:8,9,15,16,20

213:10 214:3 222:4

229:3,4 230:20,20

247:13 253:9 262:18

266:14 268:6 309:5

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183:12 184:12 193:14

193:15 194:2 210:12

210:12,15,16,19

212:7 217:21,22

222:4,5 232:6 234:16

234:17 249:2 261:1

installer's 107:16

installing 8:4 93:21

100:15 152:5 198:3

219:11 261:17 265:19

267:11,12

installs 179:20 180:21

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202:7 204:4 210:13

233:8,11 235:2 258:6

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instance 5:15 10:9

44:18 61:8 83:16

110:3 112:14 151:13

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instruct 35:6

insuring 94:10

intelligence 222:6

intelligent 55:16 254:18

intended 174:12 205:14

230:1,4,13,20

intends 228:8,12 231:2

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intent 228:22 229:10,10

231:11 232:20

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intercede 91:3

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86:21 101:5 226:17

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89:9 90:14,17,19 91:2

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94:20 95:12 96:12,20

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interpretation 252:15

interpretations 194:9

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222:15 262:11 308:1

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100:21 115:4

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104:9 105:19 147:18

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invited 51:6

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involved 57:18 90:17

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286:1

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66:1,12,15,16 67:2,3

67:12 82:8 118:8

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21:16 22:17 23:4 25:4

25:12 30:18,22 33:8

35:2 39:15 40:17,18

40:18 41:3,5,5 42:5,5

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49:10 52:8 53:5,20,22

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88:22 89:5 92:21

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114:18 116:8 118:17

121:10 122:2,10,14

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135:21 136:7,15

139:20 142:14 149:20

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118:7 124:17 133:19

134:2 184:16 188:18

189:9 190:15 211:22

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32:9 38:17 80:15

154:16 156:20 159:4

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58:18 59:6 60:14,20

142:15 143:20 144:1

206:15 226:1,7,11

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280:3 282:9 286:11

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290:19

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277:9 278:18 282:19

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54:14 60:16,17 63:13

64:5,6,10 65:9 73:8

74:11 75:8 81:1 85:14

86:8,14,16 88:11 90:4

96:5 97:10 99:12

101:3 103:21 106:2

106:11 109:10 115:21

115:22 116:6 118:2

127:8,18 135:3

136:12,13 137:14

140:1 143:2 147:18

157:15 159:1 163:5

169:8,11 170:21

171:17,21 173:9

176:20 177:20,21,21

179:17 181:4 190:20

204:10,11 206:18

209:6,7,22 210:2,3

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226:13 232:3 237:15

241:6 242:16 243:16

248:4 250:16 255:17

256:6 260:4,5 261:8

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282:8 283:15 285:7

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42:4 44:15 52:4 53:6

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60:14 61:16,22 62:9

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73:11 74:4,13 77:5

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110:2 112:9 115:22

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174:14 175:17 176:15

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249:17,20 250:5,13

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312:11 314:14 315:5

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280:22 285:10 305:20

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larger 8:4 33:9,9 34:3

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29:7,13 34:12,12 35:3

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69:11 85:11 89:19

102:12 123:2 131:4

138:2 147:21 167:10

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319:15

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37:17 42:19 43:17

45:10 49:9 59:19

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67:19 80:8,16 112:8

116:8 118:6 127:6

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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196:13

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92:2,7 95:14,17 116:1

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121:19,22 124:4

127:20 128:13,21

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154:17 155:9 157:11

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160:8 162:4 178:19

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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300:20 301:13 302:3

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192:7 193:4 218:4

219:8 225:3 236:10

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167:15

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261:6,6 280:1,3,3

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290:19,19 291:21

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62:3,5,10 81:9 88:4

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35:21 36:5,6

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181:20 194:22 196:5

229:16 231:22 245:7

245:22 246:22 271:16

271:20 272:13 296:2

296:2 307:16

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304:13 306:7,17

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249:10

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125:22 133:21

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108:19 114:3 123:2

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271:21 275:15

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184:19

minute 43:9 99:2

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320:8

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80:2,22 114:14 137:8

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287:12

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311:11 318:1,19

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51:18 170:13 172:18

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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22:20 23:21 26:8,21

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37:22 38:1,2,22 39:22

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106:17 116:9 174:4

178:2 256:5 265:6

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92:4 277:14 297:20

298:11 300:5 301:11

304:2 308:4 313:3

318:19 320:17 321:8

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non 75:6 107:20 108:8

109:5 113:6,22

136:15 142:16 144:19

151:13 167:22 198:18

233:17 298:14

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111:1 113:19 120:20

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109:15 111:6 112:10

112:12,16 113:2,14

114:7,15 119:7

122:16 123:5,21

131:11 132:13 136:16

136:20 147:2 151:11

192:5 193:1 198:6,9

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228:9 229:20 230:14

231:3 232:18 233:8

233:12 234:13 235:7

245:11 247:13 261:13

266:14 271:4 275:19

300:8 304:6,7 308:13

312:16 320:6

non-condensing 76:1

non-finished 27:16,18

non-routinely 258:18

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34:13 47:1 48:10 52:3

233:7 268:1

normally 282:19

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109:7,15 110:19

111:7 112:21 113:5,6

113:16 123:19 124:2

201:17 304:13,16

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155:20 156:4 161:15

161:19 162:7,9,11

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220:3,6 227:5,9,11

240:20 293:16,17

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43:14,20,21,22 44:6

44:10,13,13 51:13

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objective 126:11

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obligation 15:22 95:17

176:20 278:2

obligations 72:21 73:9

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262:11

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obviously 10:18 23:10

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66:18 77:1 90:15

143:11 164:21 189:2

261:16 282:21 316:12

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291:10

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168:7

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186:5,5

occurred 116:14 163:6

308:8

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offender 18:15

offer 29:10 48:1 192:1

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offering 78:3

office 30:6 95:5

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56:15 64:12 66:11

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242:8,20 243:6

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261:4 264:5,6,11

270:13 271:11 273:1

283:11,16 284:17

291:21 295:14 297:9

318:20 320:4

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older 12:10 14:13 15:14

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88:18 112:9 121:22

132:14 168:13 210:1

227:13 231:15 285:10

299:4 312:2

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118:1 124:1 125:13

128:22 212:12 251:4

252:20 276:8

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78:10,10 232:5

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172:1 211:20 220:12

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287:9,15

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159:9 183:5 216:4

274:1 286:1

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287:5 300:14

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193:13 264:2 268:3

optimize 303:20

optimizing 304:3

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option 76:2 78:7

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46:14 70:15 163:5

172:8 195:9 243:16

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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201:17

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65:12 74:4 315:13

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over-the-counters

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23:21 219:14

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266:18 289:5 291:3

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17:5,12,15 18:8,8

20:10,11,14,17,21

21:2,10 25:21 26:4,10

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27:19 28:1,3,10 29:9

30:11 34:6 38:8 39:12

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29:3 31:3 39:4,8,14

40:6 43:10 44:21 45:7

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180:20 182:11,14,19

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139:14 140:1

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219:19 276:20 292:19

penalty 115:3 120:12

120:17,19,22 121:2

122:13 123:22 125:14

126:12 128:3,15,19

130:12 131:2,7,10,12

131:18,21,22 132:4,6

132:8,11,20 136:10

136:17 137:1,2,4

277:4,8 279:2 284:2

286:13 287:1 291:12

293:18 294:20

Pennsylvania 305:21

people 41:22 48:7 58:2

63:15 65:8 66:20

67:11 68:13 71:21

76:6,8 78:16 79:1,2

83:21 84:11,16 85:6

85:17 86:4,13 93:18

95:6,10 97:7 100:15

102:13 103:14 104:11

106:8 107:3 128:14

135:9 137:15 138:5

139:19 143:2 145:3,4

145:19 146:21 150:12

150:13 155:9 156:3

157:5,5 161:20

163:11 166:19 170:19

171:1,5,19 176:16

188:14 190:7 192:16

194:8 203:6 207:3

208:16 210:3,16

217:6 219:10 227:21

228:4 237:10,10

238:17 243:20 254:17

255:20 263:20 273:13

274:20 277:6 279:6

283:3,16 284:16

291:16 292:22 293:4

295:1,11,17,20 296:7

297:4,18 302:9

303:17 309:10 316:9

318:2

people's 170:9

percent 125:11 155:14

160:12,14 161:9,9,10

161:11 171:8

percentage 96:21 161:3

percolating 259:16

perfect 319:22 320:2

perform 119:10 207:19

performance 6:11

31:10,13 34:11,20

44:15

performing 123:1

period 42:20 48:8,16,20

54:22 64:18 78:21

88:18 187:5 190:18

201:1 245:12 282:14

282:16

perk 219:17

permanently 292:12

permit 189:17 190:22

191:4,7

permits 190:3

permitting 189:8

persistent 19:22

person 91:1 95:1

139:15 149:14,16

155:2 162:8 172:12

180:5,15 198:1

199:12,19 200:11

202:14 210:13 222:7

229:5 231:12 236:22

237:1 238:1,10

248:14 249:7 250:2

254:22

person's 32:17 149:11

162:9 204:22

personal 62:6 83:15,19

276:7

personally 281:9

perspective 97:13 98:2

135:4 141:21 162:5

288:15 290:21 311:14

persuade 58:12

persuasive 291:13

pervasive 97:3

PG&E 69:16,22 319:4

Philadelphia 305:19

phone 30:6 50:20

104:11,17 105:8

155:1 161:16 195:15

249:11

phonying 190:7

phrase 140:10 206:20

228:14

physically 33:8

pick 105:7 316:7,9

317:15,16

picked 280:16

picking 230:10

picks 249:21
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

342

pickup 68:13

pictorial 39:11

picture 63:10 64:1

piece 12:22 79:15

157:21 172:12 225:7

228:18,19,20 291:3

317:4 318:6

pieces 54:16 159:1

240:12 300:11,16

place 64:4,9 74:6 89:13

90:1,20 94:15 107:9

107:14 110:16 115:8

115:18,20 116:5

117:22 119:9 120:5

129:13 148:2 186:9

187:13 208:8,10

209:18 221:16 229:4

256:2 279:15 300:8

300:11 302:20 308:9

310:4 313:11,12

321:18

placed 185:21,21

placement 192:7

places 69:10 119:21

253:10 313:15

plan 16:13 127:21

130:21 189:11 237:19

247:2,3 300:7

planned 19:6 301:8,10

302:3

plans 232:14 301:9

plant 305:17

plate 45:4

play 88:18 117:1 133:11

175:1 212:16

player 134:3

players 276:4

playing 74:5 133:12

188:12

please 7:14 156:7 241:8

plenum 11:2

Plumbing-Heating-C...

2:6

plus 312:9

point 29:22 30:20 36:5

36:14 41:20 48:19

49:1 55:12 59:7 63:6

63:17 66:4 67:10

74:14 81:12 90:13,22

95:4 96:7,8,18 100:9

105:4 108:4 109:13

111:3,12 113:9

117:18,20 121:20

125:5 127:9,10

129:11,22 135:5

138:1 140:7,15

142:18 157:8,17

161:5 166:11 167:1

168:12 171:3 177:16

179:4 183:9 184:3

185:4,11 186:2,4,13

186:19 189:2 190:1

197:3,14 199:4 206:2

207:6 220:14 234:3

247:8 266:11 268:14

268:16 270:19 271:9

277:22 302:6,7

310:22,22 311:1,1

312:8 314:17

pointed 142:15 161:17

199:18

pointing 256:10

points 42:17 185:13

252:7 254:13 257:17

310:20

poker 117:1 134:3

police 249:19 254:7

policy 61:3,17 128:9

219:21 220:1,7

226:19,20 227:4,10

276:13

polled 288:1

pool 58:16 69:17 70:2

pools 69:18

Porter 2:2 16:9,9 32:8,8

32:11 37:3 76:22,22

77:15 80:14,15

154:15,15 156:19,19

159:4,4 200:18,18

203:2,2 206:15

222:12,12 228:11,11

228:16 229:8 231:13

231:13 248:8,9,10

249:9 253:7,15 254:5

254:10 262:16,16

263:16 264:14,14

266:21,21 268:9,9

270:15,16 274:11

284:8,8 290:2,3 298:9

299:1,1 301:5,5,16

304:8,21 305:3 316:5

316:5

Porter's 68:5

posed 206:9 272:2,10

272:14 273:15

position 16:1 18:2 50:9

77:18 118:3 125:1

154:2

possession 175:3,13

176:10

possibility 196:16

248:2

possible 32:3 33:5

60:16 68:2 150:3

190:14 196:6 197:13

204:3 235:21 240:11

280:14 308:9 312:2

313:5

possibly 71:10 125:4

155:3 167:20 173:22

179:3 186:9 187:3

206:12 209:22 211:20

240:14 255:21

post 91:16 144:20

167:6

posters 58:21

posting 58:6 152:22

potential 23:14 31:15

83:8 126:17 148:15

149:2 161:15 295:12

313:4

potentially 147:1 175:5

295:6 310:16 317:20

318:12

power 193:21 195:4

223:6,19 281:5

286:12

powered 186:4 195:13

PowerPoint 319:4

321:3

PRA 65:7

practical 63:13 67:4

105:15 150:6 183:9

231:6 306:20 309:11

practice 31:2 45:13

88:12 91:21 145:1

156:1 168:4 170:12

171:3,13 173:20

204:15 205:8 288:3

practices 93:14

pre 75:21

precarious 154:2 175:9

preconceived 170:6,6

predicated 182:22

predict 34:10

predisposed 171:12

prefer 124:19 135:8

267:4,7 287:2

preference 170:12

195:22 272:17

preliminary 4:11

prematurely 169:2

premise 150:1

prepared 19:1 163:15

319:5

present 1:13 2:1,9

319:16

presentation 3:2 4:20

6:20 18:22 20:9 24:14

319:4

presented 300:13

presiding 1:12

press 226:11

pressing 255:12

pressure 316:12

pressuring 291:14

presumably 33:16

91:11 238:5

presume 91:7 115:19

272:16

presumption 115:17

314:18

presumptively 83:16

pretty 36:21 67:13 77:6

85:2,10 86:5 88:18

89:2 105:16,16

125:21 145:17 157:12

177:4 199:20 220:11

251:11 275:16 276:2

278:15 281:13 292:20

293:5,8 299:3 302:14

prevent 93:9

prevents 31:1

previous 17:12 44:17

46:8 191:11

previously 52:8 72:8

75:4

price 302:20 312:4

prima 232:16

primarily 68:10

principal 183:15 205:9

printed 321:1,5

prior 168:9

priority 59:3

privacy 62:4

private 200:12 218:20

236:15 258:7 269:11

269:12,14,18 270:7,9

270:11,16,20 275:1

277:11 278:17

pro 283:21

proactive 63:12 71:3,15

73:22 309:9,16,17,21

probably 14:3 19:12

55:13,19 67:3,8 73:22

76:9 85:17 89:16 95:4

108:18 130:8 139:15

144:12 146:15 150:8

152:6 155:1,13,17

179:19,20 198:21

200:21 219:16 225:5

231:6 235:5 244:16

252:3 267:12 288:18

291:18 294:20 315:1

315:2 318:7

problem 15:9 36:12

40:14 52:14 85:1

114:9 131:1 151:15

182:16 190:21 200:22

203:22 224:18 231:20

233:14 236:12 318:15

320:21 321:15
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

343

problematic 35:8 122:7

problems 35:20 228:10

procedure 193:16

proceed 51:12

proceedings 117:12

process 3:7 50:5 75:22

99:22 101:20 108:4

111:1 126:4 136:6

137:2,3,5,9,15,17

145:5 146:10,15

147:4,6,15 148:2

149:10 150:18 152:12

152:16 156:22 165:10

167:8 188:22 190:9

193:19 214:20 224:5

251:12 275:18,21

284:16 290:18

processes 145:7

produce 49:19 66:7,11

85:7 103:7 105:9

276:21 277:15 279:18

284:1,3 296:8

produced 67:2 101:19

102:20 107:19 276:19

producing 85:16 86:6

295:13

product 9:5 41:14

44:19 88:19 89:10

92:19 107:20 108:9

108:22 109:4,13,15

109:16 111:4,6,9

114:4,16,20,21

115:11 119:17 120:6

120:7 121:8 122:18

123:5 125:10 128:19

129:1,12,16 130:2,5

130:14 132:13 136:16

147:9 154:11 157:7

168:1 173:12 184:13

192:5 193:3 198:7

213:22 217:16,21

219:11 223:7 224:20

229:15 234:18 235:13

236:5,20 238:4

247:13 249:3,21

252:9 257:10,12

258:3,5,9,12 261:13

261:17 266:13 268:2

270:8,11,21 271:1,4

271:13,14,20,21

273:2,4,5 280:16

298:4 301:14,18,20

302:4,6 303:21 304:1

306:4,5,19 310:6,9

314:2,8 316:7,9,14,19

317:19 318:14

production 67:9 101:14

101:16 102:17 103:9

119:1 124:13 125:21

133:13 275:7

products 2:14 5:2

18:10 28:21 29:1

44:18 49:20 56:5

89:21 90:19 91:15

92:11 94:2 100:14

114:1,14 121:13

147:11 179:13 213:19

218:12 271:5,6

292:20 297:14 298:20

300:8 302:22 304:5,6

308:13

profitability 302:18

program 57:14 66:10

72:3 110:17 158:21

161:8,14

programs 110:21 319:9

progress 246:10

prohibit 260:4,6

prohibited 138:15

142:5 200:9 203:19

214:8,10,11,15,16,20

215:5,12,16,22 216:2

216:6,8,20 219:18

220:17,20 221:3

237:17 238:12 239:9

239:16 240:5,13,18

241:19 242:3,12

246:2,7 247:4,10,14

255:14 257:22 263:13

265:4 268:18,21

269:22 271:9,17

272:5,7 274:16,18,22

275:3,9 277:2,13

278:12,20 279:2,17

279:19 281:4,6 284:3

284:5 286:18 295:20

296:5,17 297:4,8

307:19 308:17 311:15

320:13 321:4,8

prohibition 298:3,12,17

304:6

promise 55:22

promised 72:8

proof 75:16

proper 9:22 38:4 220:6

properly 129:17 227:10

proposal 5:6 6:15 7:20

192:19 194:7 256:20

proposals 307:20

propose 275:8

proposed 4:21 5:20

6:15 10:17 137:1,4

196:11 284:5 293:17

297:4 307:19

proposing 12:6,10

211:8

proposition 212:19

317:8

proscribed 256:15

prosecuting 293:4

prosecutory 279:5

protect 111:19,22

protection 15:11

prove 163:6 231:9

proven 84:9

proves 107:12 119:18

123:1

provide 18:2 20:17

43:11 49:1,11 52:12

60:8,11 61:10,14 62:5

62:8 72:9,13 77:3

78:12 81:21 94:21

102:21 142:8 236:16

251:15 265:14 274:19

275:2,11 278:12,21

279:3 283:8 284:10

292:14,16 296:13,20

314:15

provided 49:22 66:15

provider 89:9 94:19

providers 98:7

providing 48:22

proving 118:8 152:13

provision 180:8 212:14

213:18 218:19 219:3

225:8 231:21 235:3

provisions 279:15

proxy 18:16

prudent 105:1 149:5

178:9 188:11 274:18

PSC 33:16

public 1:5,11 166:11

167:13 168:1,20

169:9,10 175:16

253:2,3 263:22

293:13,20 319:11

publicity 57:20

publicizing 168:3

publicly 167:6

publish 144:18 293:16

published 35:6 56:4

146:6 168:8

pull 26:19 39:12 46:12

191:7 204:8 241:5

263:2 289:9

pulled 43:4 188:22

189:17 190:3 191:5

pulling 234:19 276:9

pump 36:17 37:5,9,12

49:20 70:3

pumps 36:18 69:17,20

punitive 126:12

purchase 94:8 109:17

109:19

purchased 109:20

purchaser 95:14

pure 134:9

purpose 181:10,14

243:7 247:1 254:21

283:5 305:2

purposes 81:11 111:16

202:17 240:19

pursuing 91:21

pushing 59:17

put 6:17 14:1,16 23:7

23:11 24:6 30:17

32:20 35:12 38:3 50:4

56:22 68:2 77:17,18

83:2 86:10,11,17

90:16 94:14 98:11

99:15 106:20 111:14

115:11 129:13 132:5

145:2 146:16 159:16

162:4 167:5 180:17

186:3,9 189:4 197:8

201:19 202:20 203:17

209:18 219:13 221:16

223:9 239:5 240:20

249:13 250:13 253:1

255:11 259:11,14,15

260:1 263:21 266:16

293:7 297:10,18

298:16 300:7,11

302:15 307:17 308:8

312:15 316:12 318:2

320:13

puts 36:2 91:10 259:3

putting 8:6 14:8,19

17:11 30:7 120:5

147:1 219:15 222:3

264:20 267:3 285:20

298:2 300:16 301:1

312:1

puzzle 300:16

Q

qualified 78:11

qualify 80:17,18

qualifying 75:7

qualms 14:11

quantities 310:10 317:6

quantity 36:1

quarter 318:22

quasi-required 83:17

query 151:1

question 12:2 15:1,7

17:20 18:17 19:16

20:6 21:3 22:6 25:16

27:15 35:11 40:15

41:20 42:3 47:20

49:16 50:2,9 53:12

56:3 57:11 58:15 75:1
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

344

76:17 83:10 90:18

91:7 94:5,12 101:2

112:22 115:2 118:5

123:20 130:20 132:22

149:13 151:7 153:15

158:20 160:7,9

163:20 169:12,14

172:11,20,21 173:15

174:14 179:14 180:7

188:8 190:16 191:14

191:15 196:20,22

197:6 199:2 202:3

204:7,19 205:12

206:8 207:14 225:22

233:4 241:22 244:6

244:11 261:8 270:2

271:17 272:1,9

273:11,12 276:21,22

284:7 291:22 293:11

301:11 307:21 310:2

313:20

questioning 253:21

questions 11:16 35:2

47:17 50:15,16 56:8

57:9 64:13,20 104:2

127:7 160:2 165:3

172:18 195:20 216:3

216:11 282:2 289:10

quick 211:2 219:14

254:9 295:3 317:14

quickest 316:18

quickly 89:2 150:3

195:19 290:15

quite 68:5 80:4 155:11

quotes 93:18

R

R22 12:5,7 13:5,19

14:13,20 42:5 49:20

195:8

R410A 12:3 14:11

rabbit 112:7

raise 164:2 191:15

raised 75:5 167:2 199:3

raises 103:11

raising 127:19 170:8

186:18 187:2

ramification 115:3

ramifications 37:15

Rand 1:18 138:10 140:9

157:11 182:6,18

184:21 190:1 199:2

202:11 233:20

random 70:2 71:18,22

89:19 106:3

randomly 106:7

range 70:17 114:2

rare 75:22 110:2

rate 9:19 29:2 32:1 56:5

121:8

rated 28:1,3,7 30:8 31:7

33:5 35:4 45:12,20

46:7 113:11,12 114:6

114:11 119:10,17

122:1,18 123:17

129:19 132:20,22

rates 48:13 107:7,11

rating 5:14,16 27:17

32:14 113:13,15,21

114:2 123:9

ratings 33:21 34:8

78:15

ratio 165:10 171:8

RAWALD 2:2 50:19

51:3 52:16 54:5 55:8

56:6,21 59:6 61:11

62:12 65:1 66:4 70:22

74:2 84:3 90:11 94:5

95:16 97:4 98:5 99:9

100:1,6 101:12 104:6

104:13 106:20 108:20

111:11 112:6 113:10

113:18 114:12 116:16

117:19 118:11,15,21

120:11,18 122:8

123:11,16 124:22

125:16 128:8 129:10

131:6 132:9,17

133:10 134:19 136:3

139:10 141:20 142:6

142:12 143:20 144:3

144:16 147:5 149:8

151:3 152:3 155:19

157:8 166:22 170:4

172:17 176:18 178:8

179:21 181:7 183:8

186:17 188:7 189:9

195:17 196:7 197:18

198:13,16 199:18

200:8 201:22 203:11

204:6 205:4,20 206:8

206:15,21 209:4

211:1 212:10 214:5

215:9 219:13 225:12

225:22 226:10,19,21

230:2,11,16 236:11

237:5 238:8 239:6

242:1,6,9 243:18

244:13,19 245:1

247:7 254:9,12

258:13 259:10 260:1

260:18 261:4 263:12

264:1,11 265:5

267:17 269:18 271:8

271:12,22 272:16,21

273:10 274:4,7,15

276:16 277:5 278:15

281:14 283:1 284:13

286:10 287:7 291:9

292:17 293:14 294:15

295:14 297:3 309:6

318:21 320:15,21

321:10

Ray 51:5

Ray's 51:7

re-certified 45:20

re-distribution 310:11

re-rated 110:21

reach 110:6

react 104:17,18 290:15

300:22

reaction 318:17

reactionary 308:6

Reactions 298:8

reactive 63:14 68:1

71:15 75:17 83:8

248:13,13 275:18

276:13 289:22 300:6

309:12

read 16:11 17:14 19:1

197:22 269:20 289:5

readily 94:3

reading 135:20 319:20

reads 22:10 278:21

ready 19:2 23:6 51:21

195:13

real 31:18 40:14 61:14

68:3 83:13 150:7

153:8 154:6 254:9

realistic 63:13

reality 40:3 309:11

realize 48:7 56:11

135:18 233:9

realizes 153:8

really 5:5 6:1,1,13 7:9

8:19 9:20 10:6 11:5

16:4 34:9 35:21,22

36:2 49:3 53:3,3 60:2

63:8 76:17 78:8,17

79:2,9 85:18,20 86:1

89:6 90:6,18 95:21

102:15 106:9 120:6

121:15 129:4 130:19

130:22 141:17 144:6

148:3 149:15 151:4

151:21 154:19 157:6

157:20 163:6,7

175:22 181:9 189:10

190:6,11 202:20

214:7 218:10,14,17

220:15 222:11,15

226:1 232:3,20

238:12,14 239:15

243:17,20 250:8,10

250:15,18,20 251:8,9

252:6 254:6,7 273:8

279:9 282:1 286:20

287:1 288:13 303:4

303:20 307:22 310:21

realtors 217:20

reap 80:9

rear 291:4

reason 6:9 74:19 107:8

196:4 205:17,20

212:11 214:1 261:9

266:16 267:2

reasonability 214:2

reasonable 85:2 139:2

140:16 252:15 266:13

286:3 293:6,8

reasons 39:22 66:18

85:22 168:5,14

reassure 309:7

recall 120:9

recalled 208:3

receipts 82:9

receive 103:3 104:18

305:15

receiving 305:17

reception 163:21

recognition 160:22

recognizes 153:5

recommend 37:4 167:8

233:21 242:14

recommended 318:8

recommending 275:9

record 3:6 63:6,17

64:17 66:6 76:19,20

83:16 90:15 94:18

99:4,7 101:15 102:1

119:1 124:13,13

125:20,20 133:12

153:12 163:17 166:4

175:16 239:1 253:2,3

275:5 276:2,14

286:17 293:13,20

294:3 321:20

record-keeping 81:7,13

83:6 87:5,16

records 64:6 65:22 66:2

68:3 73:10 76:7,8,9

82:1,5,19,19 83:2

84:6,17 87:8 88:5

94:21 97:20 101:13

101:13,16,19 102:17

102:19 103:9 105:5,9

105:10 117:17 118:6

151:18 152:8 156:8

161:17 190:7 251:14

251:15,16 274:19

275:2,22 276:18,21

277:2,3,9,10,15
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

345

278:12,21 279:3,8,18

279:21 280:7,15

281:1,6,20 283:8,10

284:1,3 291:5 292:6,7

292:11 296:8 308:19

recover 68:19 69:4

rectify 110:10

redacted 103:1,2

redaction 103:6

redo 307:14

reduce 125:15

refer 52:22

referenced 40:10

reflect 301:15

refrigerant 13:22 26:6

26:15 33:7 34:19

192:8

Refrigeration 2:6,10

reg 195:2

regard 75:15 181:16

regarding 167:2 186:20

197:7 215:16 220:20

238:12

regardless 27:2 113:12

113:16 183:18 281:6

regime 68:18

region 92:12 107:21

122:20 128:21 131:14

201:17,19 301:22,22

304:15,16

regional 1:3 52:19

54:13 108:17 119:22

123:5,21 135:3 140:5

181:16,22 193:1

198:6,10 213:11

214:4,18 215:14

217:1 218:1,13

219:11 221:6 224:22

225:2,4 229:21

233:13 234:14,17

235:8,13 236:19

245:11 257:12 258:5

258:11 273:20 298:5

302:19,22 303:6

307:3 312:4 316:11

regions 88:19 300:4

302:10 318:14

regs 200:1

regular 278:3

regulate 252:8,12

regulated 6:3 10:6 16:5

21:10 71:7 100:10

regulates 250:7

regulating 16:11 101:3

171:1

regulation 5:21 73:5

86:12 100:13 110:17

164:16 293:7 315:9

regulations 25:4,11

70:11 72:11 74:1

100:18 130:10 131:5

164:11 203:19

regulatory 142:9

reinforced 311:22

reinforcement 312:17

reject 194:17

relates 53:4 108:17

relationship 149:7

205:10

Relative 22:20

relatively 70:13 192:6

244:18

relaxed 160:17

release 72:12

released 99:16

relevant 52:18,19

311:13

reliance 135:11 176:4

relief 218:6 219:7 244:9

relieve 261:2 279:6

remains 308:5

remediation 127:21

128:11

remedy 128:4

remember 5:8 15:10

22:3,14 29:5 204:2

235:9

reminder 155:16

remiss 15:13

removal 33:18 34:2

remove 153:11

removing 166:9

repackage 310:14,16

repair 26:20 28:7 29:3,4

43:10

repairable 7:10 26:20

repeat 229:17 235:4

repeated 287:21

replace 10:14,16 15:14

17:9 19:17 30:15

31:12 40:6 44:10,14

replaced 6:9 18:8 28:12

45:5 69:17 70:4

replacement 3:2 4:22

5:22 6:18 8:1 10:18

10:22 11:5 12:12 15:4

16:11,14 17:5,18,21

18:3,7 19:13 20:11,14

20:17,21,22 22:18

23:19 24:22 26:10

27:5,9,19,20,22 28:3

28:8,20 30:10 31:3

35:13 36:22 38:7 39:4

39:11 45:2,7,17 47:8

48:21 54:3 69:11,20

70:14

replacements 5:7 17:7

37:10,12

replaces 39:16

replacing 14:8 21:2

22:21

replicates 126:9

report 60:21 61:20 72:6

83:9 151:10 155:18

157:5 176:13

reported 63:18 155:6,7

155:16 189:18

reporter 42:14 230:9

reporting 61:2 62:11

69:7 83:14 176:20

177:18 289:21

reports 72:3 76:15

83:19 278:3 297:11

represent 226:3

representative 45:18

70:7,20

reputable 68:7 276:4

reputation 112:3 128:2

request 57:2 84:18

102:2,4,19 103:4,4

105:1,9 106:4 150:13

156:5 278:13 284:10

284:21 285:3 308:20

requested 63:19 275:2

275:11 278:22 285:11

requests 77:2 106:8,11

276:18

require 8:5 34:18 55:17

64:22 84:6,7 102:12

102:13,19 127:12

282:20 307:13

required 21:12 41:14

65:9 76:9,10 83:6,14

83:20 85:7 146:15

277:9 314:4

requirement 70:6 76:13

76:14,19,21 180:9

182:8 191:1 252:22

275:6,7 277:2 279:20

285:14,19 286:7,9

296:18 314:10

requirements 15:11

27:11 29:5 39:5 65:3

69:21 108:17,19

124:14 127:1,3 276:9

requires 65:19 68:16

102:8 133:7,10 308:8

314:16 317:15

requiring 130:4

resale 302:7

research 34:7 59:20

106:7 211:2

reseller 257:9 261:18

262:9 265:13,22

266:12

resellers 96:12 97:14

256:19 257:17 262:11

265:9 267:8 268:13

269:9

reselling 96:21

reserve 105:13

reside 265:2

residential 109:21

186:6 193:5

residents 194:19

resistant 239:13

resolve 159:15 170:11

resolved 150:4 168:13

resonating 67:20

resources 1:22 58:16

60:16 64:2

resourcing 309:11

respect 134:2 319:14

respectively 22:15

respond 84:18,21

105:19 150:12,14,16

219:14 284:11 285:4

response 55:9 121:4

169:12 226:11

responses 55:10

responsibilities 129:9

151:2 245:20

responsibility 95:19

129:20 180:20 240:7

responsible 94:10

130:1 182:11,14

183:11 215:2,6

217:13 234:21 236:8

244:9 258:21

rest 158:13 179:11

181:18

restate 5:4,6

restatement 235:15,16

resting 208:8,10

restrict 309:8

restricting 299:6,21

restriction 60:22

restrictions 3:9 297:13

297:16

result 92:18 104:9

111:1

results 31:20,22 147:10

resumed 99:4 163:17

239:1

retail 262:22 263:11,21

264:19

retailer 185:4 212:5,7

212:20,21 257:9

261:13,18 262:6

265:13 266:16,17

268:12 303:8,8

retailer/reseller 257:3
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

346

retailers 212:4 256:19

257:17 263:5 265:9

267:7 269:8 275:10

retailers/resellers

261:9 268:10

retain 67:11 81:22

274:19 279:21 281:20

retainability 67:10

retained 81:8 84:7

retention 3:6 63:6,17

64:17 67:10 68:3

73:11 76:9,19 83:16

85:15 86:1 90:16

94:18 97:20 99:7

101:16 124:13 125:20

275:6,22 276:3,14

278:9 286:18 308:19

retention/record 119:1

133:13

rethinking 6:16

retired 262:22

retrenched 85:18

retrofit 110:5

Returning 19:15

reverse 213:17

review 319:15

reviewing 229:9

rewind 287:18

Rheem 1:21 56:3

181:21 195:1 229:18

296:3 307:17

rid 258:6

right 4:12,13 9:15 12:15

24:4 32:18 38:13

40:22 43:18 46:22

49:14 50:14 51:9 53:4

54:1 56:16 61:3 62:18

64:14 65:1 87:3 90:22

92:20 94:5 95:16 98:5

99:21 100:4,6 101:10

104:13,21 105:13

107:16 108:20 111:17

111:18 112:1 113:18

115:20 117:20 120:3

122:8,11 123:16

129:2,10,22 132:17

134:13,16 136:3

138:4 140:15 141:20

142:6,11 143:22

147:5 148:19 149:8

150:1 154:19 155:4

157:18 161:18 163:14

164:4,17 166:13

176:18 177:10 178:8

178:10,18 179:8

180:16 182:4 185:2

187:5 192:14 196:7

199:18 200:8 211:5

213:2 223:11,18

224:13 237:5,5,5

238:11 242:1,6

243:18 244:13,14

248:13 250:18 251:4

251:5,22 256:11

258:14 259:14 260:16

262:21 263:7,22

264:22 268:17 269:18

271:8,19,22 272:1,21

273:8 276:16 277:5

278:16,17 281:14

283:1 284:13 291:9

292:19,21 293:1,8

295:10 301:11 303:14

308:7 312:14 317:9

317:22 320:5 321:16

321:17

right?There 245:13

rights 223:7

ringing 76:17

rings 249:11

rise 138:2 167:10 168:2

risen 52:9 168:11

risk 31:18 146:21

risks 68:15

road 75:13 85:13

144:13 158:3

roadblocks 255:9

robo-call 72:15

robo-calling 70:1

Rocky 2:4 17:1,1 20:4

26:2 27:18,22 28:19

29:9 30:21,21 31:8

32:6 38:17,17 41:8,18

43:3,3 45:14,22 46:10

46:15,19 92:8 110:22

110:22 184:5 185:12

192:18 193:9,15

194:3,7 198:2 256:11

258:17 262:5 265:17

266:5

role 212:16 260:9

rolling 291:7

rolls 248:14

room 9:9 14:7 56:13

78:20 119:15 222:21

251:2,4

rough 34:9

roughly 25:20,21,22

round 56:11

route 291:20

routine 76:8 88:11

134:17 135:18 136:8

136:21 137:7,12

138:1,1,13,19 139:4,8

140:17,18 141:5

144:11 145:2 146:6

149:2 151:20 152:2

152:11 153:19 157:14

163:3 165:15,16,16

166:2,16 167:9

169:17,20 172:5

217:1 236:1,22

245:19 278:7,8

routinely 136:1 164:11

165:10 173:7 177:3

206:7 214:22 215:14

220:22 221:10,13

222:7 224:22 231:7

234:17 235:2,12

236:17,18 237:1,2,11

238:4 241:1 244:3,4

247:18 257:11,19

258:10,14,15 264:9

273:3

row 116:19

Roy 2:3 49:16,17 50:11

rule 72:20 73:16 97:14

127:13 141:2 227:11

249:8 253:2 293:2

296:6,16,19 299:3,19

306:4

rulemaking 71:8 126:5

220:3,6 227:3,5,9,12

rules 88:17 97:21

170:15,17 187:22

251:9

rumor 252:19

rumors 249:11 253:13

run 22:4 65:2 252:5

255:9 279:12 303:14

319:2

running 249:22

runs 306:7,16

Rural 1:17

S

S.W 1:11

S1 44:13

S1-022 44:9

S1-373 44:1

S1-37323 44:5

SACHS 2:4 11:20 13:16

14:21 18:13 19:15

21:15 25:15 27:12

33:2 51:18 53:16

56:10 67:16 75:14

83:11 134:10 146:4

148:14 150:17 191:16

192:13 194:10 232:9

232:15 264:8,12

275:13 277:17 287:18

288:12 289:18 294:2

311:5

safe 177:16

safety 125:9

sale 21:12 91:16,17

179:12,16,22 180:10

182:12 183:2 189:7

215:7 222:15 228:7

229:19 230:13 231:1

233:11 234:14 235:1

235:8,11 236:9 258:4

258:10,22 269:3,5

282:12 308:1 317:11

sales 27:4 68:20 78:21

90:14,17 93:4 94:15

96:22 97:8 148:17

184:8,15 215:2

220:21 221:9 237:21

salesman 253:21

salt 62:18

sample 61:21 70:5,18

sand 170:2

sank 146:5

satisfaction 240:11

satisfy 281:2

savings 39:2 57:19

saw 57:22 59:20 78:9

saying 33:1 55:10

59:10 65:19 71:8 90:3

100:13 102:5 104:20

105:9,21 115:9,14

116:9,15,21 118:22

124:3,4,7,8 132:5

142:10 149:9 151:4

155:15 161:3 176:14

177:17 178:11 180:13

181:13 188:10 190:11

200:4 212:15 213:16

213:20 214:11 216:12

216:13 218:11,16

220:18 221:21 227:15

227:16,18,19 230:10

231:20 246:5 247:8

247:16 249:21 265:21

267:1

says 17:14,17 19:17

34:4 100:2 181:21

189:5 200:11 213:8

215:11 224:19 229:13

248:16 250:2 257:17

268:11 269:2 270:19

270:22 285:2

scale 58:5

scenario 38:12 95:22

105:6 107:2 108:1

122:1 132:18 187:2

189:14 261:21 292:1

292:4 300:21 303:1,4

scheme 62:2 94:18

95:10 103:9 119:2

122:4 245:15 298:18
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

347

308:8

scope 57:16,22 72:18

114:12 204:22 238:15

scouring 87:13

scrape 80:2

scroll 43:9,17

scrutiny 208:18

se 144:18 216:8,18

sealed 195:11

searchable 82:20 83:2

87:9 289:8

searching 106:13

season 149:18 289:13

317:7

season's 148:16

seasons 146:18

seat 51:6

second 8:14 11:10 22:7

56:11 116:18 132:8

151:22 155:22 157:11

177:10 191:19 252:4

257:2,16 269:2

287:19 310:4

secondly 70:3

section 217:18 218:20

sections 273:19

sector 263:11

secure 66:21

see 10:21 13:19 16:10

20:7 22:17 30:18

38:16 40:13 43:8,15

43:20 62:12 68:17

69:18 71:12 74:5 97:2

97:7 105:20,21

106:17 116:20 117:15

131:17,18 138:20

145:20 148:8 152:8

152:20 155:3 156:9

184:3 187:3 193:21

194:3 196:17 197:19

200:20 224:6,7 226:2

229:16 233:14 245:2

280:15 283:6 287:2

299:2 303:17 309:14

seeing 6:19 148:17

179:17 204:11

seek 218:6

seemingly 55:15

129:21 255:8

SEER 5:16 7:4,18 9:18

9:21 10:2 14:3,11,13

14:19 16:17 17:15

20:22 23:1 28:21 29:5

29:11 31:11,12 32:1

32:19 33:4,6,21 36:11

38:22,22 41:14 44:16

44:20 45:16,19,21

46:2,5,6,7,13 47:3,5

49:19 59:10 78:15

107:8,11,13 108:16

108:22 109:4,14

114:19,21 122:12,13

123:17 130:5 189:5

229:15 251:1 253:1

268:6 271:6,18

272:20 298:14 305:16

309:2

segment 21:21

segregate 125:13 314:8

segregation 315:18

select 35:21

selections 78:1

selective 69:9

self-policing 223:11

sell 18:9 20:13 28:19

38:22 39:3,4 40:6,7

47:2,6 79:21 92:20

97:19 109:3,7 110:18

136:1 139:9 162:1

215:13 217:20 222:19

222:22 223:3,7,10,22

224:2 228:18,19

236:16 237:1,9

248:16,20 249:7

250:22 251:1,6

257:10,18 261:10

262:13,21 263:17,21

270:21 271:1,2,5

272:18 273:2,6

276:12 301:13 308:3

sell-through 88:18

156:22 157:7 201:1

seller 232:5 237:22

238:2,3,11

sellers 95:14

selling 91:2 92:10 93:6

93:10,16,20,21 95:6

95:12 123:18,19,22

128:19 138:15 143:12

143:13 167:12 171:7

173:11,14 175:7,10

176:16 180:15 214:12

219:10 224:10 237:2

238:4,6 246:16,19

247:17 253:4 263:18

265:22 267:11 271:17

272:5 301:3

sells 91:8 154:11

180:22 181:1,10

184:8,16 224:20

236:18 254:2 266:12

semantics 6:14

send 76:14 105:9 162:7

253:20,20 316:9

321:14

sending 157:2 161:14

222:1

sense 14:20 30:7 52:15

63:13 89:3 105:15

142:17 159:11 160:8

162:4 163:2,4 170:22

177:22 197:5 218:17

229:13 238:14 241:21

260:5 264:9 268:2

269:14

sent 39:9 67:7 319:3

321:13

sentence 22:9 52:5

146:7 234:20 235:17

separate 26:14 53:21

97:22 122:4 127:5

216:3,10 219:17

234:9 241:20 242:3

243:3,11 260:17

263:13 267:16

separated 41:9

separately 54:3 98:13

136:2

separating 54:19

233:21 264:3

September 1:8 86:17

serial 68:19

serial-level 69:4

serialized 27:8 28:2

series 43:6

serious 311:12

serve 153:1 307:3

313:13

served 318:9

serves 307:5

service 6:2 10:7,21

11:14 13:14 14:2 16:5

17:9 18:10 20:10,11

37:11 39:14 48:12

54:3 305:12,16

services 304:13 306:10

serving 104:22

session 22:3 72:13

186:21

set 26:4 31:17 41:13

61:16 76:3,14 95:11

127:5 153:16 169:22

249:19,20 251:16

254:6 263:2 299:4

303:20 304:9

setting 70:14 154:17

252:12 315:21

settlement 219:5

shaking 119:12

shame 166:12,14 167:2

shameful 145:12

shape 272:11,12 292:8

share 66:20 72:7

232:10

sharpen 151:1

shed 199:10

sheet 13:1 26:6,21

43:15 46:13

sheets 289:4

Shepherd 2:5 72:16,16

126:19,19 129:2

130:7 131:19 132:15

133:8 134:6 141:3

142:3,10 143:7 145:9

145:9 162:16 197:15

197:19 198:21 204:17

204:17 217:9,9

218:22 219:3 224:16

224:16 225:13 231:4

231:4 234:10,10

235:5,16 237:3,7

241:15,15 242:5,8,15

244:12,15,20 273:17

273:17 274:8

shift 202:12

shiny 87:21

ship 38:19 39:7 117:9

117:14 297:14,17

298:3,13 299:10,14

303:21 307:11 310:10

310:10,18

ship-to 264:19

shipment 3:9 60:8

117:9 299:7,21

305:15 306:2,21

310:14,16 312:9

shipments 60:18

105:22

shipped 26:17 90:1

147:12 148:15 233:5

shipping 232:17 264:22

316:10

shopping 303:6

short 12:8 150:9 223:20

shorter 148:7

shorthand 179:6

shortly 244:18

shoulders 129:21

show 16:20 39:13

135:13 152:21

shows 165:19 173:3

shredder 279:13

side 12:22 16:15 22:18

81:6 148:12 154:19

185:21 189:8,8

218:15 232:1 242:16

263:11 264:19 290:8

311:21 314:3

sides 186:8

sight 265:3

sign 68:13 77:13 82:22

signal 296:10,22
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

348

significant 62:1 89:10

282:21 308:18

signing 243:11

similar 25:19 37:6

43:12 44:2 118:8

136:19 228:5 258:1

259:7,8 305:20 306:1

simple 80:4 162:14

172:6 235:20 237:8

254:16 265:18

simply 66:2 78:18

112:22 137:3 174:12

214:21 216:1

single 5:22 33:16 95:2

146:1 155:1 190:13

312:9

single-family 25:19

188:20

single-phase 268:5

sir 230:9

sit 86:9 95:5 281:17

sites 70:19 316:3

sits 10:10

sitting 5:11 10:13 14:9

14:12 42:11 87:1

154:1 250:20 280:1

situation 8:8 9:14 11:11

13:15 20:16 21:1 25:8

41:15 42:4 45:9 54:3

75:19 93:15 96:6

108:15 110:10 111:5

169:19 188:2 209:7

242:20 258:20 262:7

279:22

situations 11:12 23:19

23:19 54:10,11 75:10

six 76:15 110:3 147:14

148:12,16 156:8

297:6

size 13:19 14:14 37:20

61:21 171:6 287:8

288:22

sized 31:16

sizes 36:7

skill 153:8

skirt 88:12 276:8

skirting 96:4

slide 6:17,19 7:14 8:13

9:1 10:4 26:20 173:2

261:7

slideshow 321:3

slight 236:12

slightly 216:16 217:11

small 2:14 3:2 4:5,15,18

5:1,12,18 12:13 13:17

15:6 18:21 19:4,9,12

29:18,19 36:15 37:1

53:18,18 70:17 77:10

87:14 96:21 287:3

288:16 290:5 296:21

smaller 58:5 296:11

smarter 227:14 243:21

Smith 94:20

sold 17:12 24:10,20,21

29:3 94:3 109:14

111:7,10 112:11

123:8 124:1,2 125:7

136:18 171:5 179:19

179:20 182:14 183:19

184:19 185:5 213:18

213:22 223:12 236:21

238:1,10,10 261:18

282:7

solution 11:10,11

solve 144:14

somebody 16:19 32:6

57:12 59:10 68:20

89:17 91:12 93:5 95:5

97:17 103:15 105:8

138:19 148:17 152:4

152:18 154:8 161:15

161:18 162:14 184:15

185:5 189:20 190:6

190:12 223:22 224:2

224:4,10 228:20

245:15 249:21 252:2

260:16 275:18 285:15

291:4 301:20 302:15

310:21 317:17

somebody's 7:1 66:5,5

someone's 191:6

someplace 178:3

somewhat 108:3

171:18 178:21 222:18

soon 108:5 177:13

sooner 162:22

sophistication 84:20

sorry 30:5 47:22 49:15

50:14 88:3 137:19

217:17 229:18 230:9

258:17 265:17 293:11

298:9

sort 11:11 40:10,12,16

60:12 69:9 72:18

73:20 75:16 84:19

86:12 102:8 103:4

105:20 106:3 130:3

131:1 135:11 140:19

145:20 149:10 153:12

153:13 160:16,16,18

166:5 167:15 174:22

176:9 177:15 187:10

196:14 199:4,5 213:7

215:18 220:4 259:19

275:7 284:2 285:17

291:14 292:14 305:20

316:8

sorting 289:3,20

sorts 276:9

sounding 106:4

sounds 52:10 173:3

221:8 283:21

source 26:12 39:10

south 5:15 8:2 10:1

33:19 41:3 93:7 105:8

105:22 109:14 111:6

112:20 113:5,7,17

123:9,18 124:12

133:3 162:1,2 172:13

181:14 185:7 209:14

266:12 301:14 304:13

307:8,10 309:1,3

310:3,7 318:9

South-only 40:17,18

southeastern 305:21

southern 201:19 304:4

307:4

Southwest 111:7

122:21

space 14:15 24:15

span 48:2

speak 23:6 46:1 49:9

61:11,18 67:17 84:4

92:5 286:8 314:21

speaking 44:4 117:6

184:9

speaks 254:22

spec 19:19 46:13

special 191:20

specific 9:6 13:3

106:10 179:15 200:15

231:8 232:19 233:3

281:13

specifically 97:15

114:17 262:9 280:8

specified 64:18 212:13

298:7

spelled 141:2

spend 13:12 39:21

58:13 71:10 80:8

114:14

spiffy 87:21

spinning 64:10

split 6:6 14:6 25:19

49:20 54:7 192:9

spoke 307:7

spot 244:14 318:8

spur 287:13

spurious 149:15

square 273:12

squealing 275:19

squishy 250:16

stack 134:12 312:19

staff 163:22

stage 33:16

staked 139:11

stance 91:19

stand 28:10 313:1

standard 7:2 94:13

103:10 109:6 110:6,9

113:20 114:3,8 120:1

122:15,17 123:3,6,13

123:21 128:20 129:1

131:13 132:14,19

145:1 155:16 156:1

183:3 187:15 213:11

214:2,4,18 218:1

222:8 224:22 225:2,4

231:7 234:18 235:13

238:5,7 252:13

257:12 272:4,6 273:3

298:5 319:9

standards 1:3 41:4,4

52:19 54:13 79:8,18

94:4,6 98:3 126:5,10

126:10,13 135:3

140:5 177:3 179:12

181:16,18,22 193:2

198:7 215:14 217:1

218:13 219:11 221:1

221:6,14 229:21

233:13 234:14 235:8

236:2,19 245:12

258:5,11 273:20

302:19 303:7 312:4

316:12 319:5,12

standing 74:3 211:22

261:5 265:6

standpoint 93:13,14

201:13 225:6 302:14

310:9

start 4:8 51:14,15 56:19

104:11 106:7,11

115:19 116:7 134:18

146:20,21 152:1

158:7,8 160:4 163:12

164:6,13 166:18

188:22 192:6 193:9

193:10 203:15 239:22

251:13 253:12,21

279:10 283:12 289:14

308:21 320:5,7

started 5:4 60:21 64:18

239:3

starting 19:7 22:4 89:5

159:12 320:11

starts 187:6

startup 193:4,16,22

196:15

STAS 2:14

state 15:11,12 61:9

127:1,2 179:7 201:16
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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249:14 256:12 265:1

277:20 298:4 304:12

306:3

stated 113:15 229:10

289:11

statement 54:14 102:9

128:9 176:9 219:21

220:2 222:18 226:18

226:19,20 227:10

256:13 262:19 267:1

statements 92:16 220:7

227:4

states 71:17 181:17

297:15,18 298:14

299:11,14 303:13

304:4,7,10 306:21

statistically 62:1

statute 143:4,10 164:10

172:10 203:20 205:15

206:7 212:13 213:8

213:14 215:11 220:22

225:20 235:15,17

240:6 242:11 245:5

249:7 252:12,16

269:19,21 270:1

271:7,10 274:5

statutory 182:7 215:10

218:18

stay 73:7 196:6 241:10

staying 306:14

stays 50:12

steadfast 239:8

step 162:6 177:11

253:6 257:16

steps 146:11 177:9

Steve 2:2 16:9 17:4

31:19 32:8 36:9 37:3

60:14 62:9,12,19 68:5

76:22 79:4 80:14 81:4

82:15 86:8 99:11

117:14 143:20 154:15

155:19 156:19 159:4

161:17 162:16 200:18

203:2 206:15 221:19

222:12 226:1 228:11

231:13 248:7,9

262:16 263:12 264:14

265:21 266:21 268:9

270:15 281:16 282:10

284:8 290:2 291:2

299:1 301:5 311:10

315:2 316:5

Steve's 311:20

stick 196:3 221:2

283:18 284:1 285:18

stigmatized 149:16

sting 100:5,22

stock 15:13,16,17,19

stocking 15:3

stood 124:17

stop 48:22 139:16

155:14 175:10 189:20

218:11 219:9,10

244:9

stopped 29:14

stopping 256:1

store 58:22 280:17

stores 268:8 300:2,2

302:9 304:10

straddle 189:12

straddles 305:20

straight 134:6,8

straightforward 12:1

192:6

strategies 73:15 301:9

streamlined 135:15

street 91:12 224:3

307:12

stressed 59:7

strict 260:12

strike 30:12

strikes 153:22 190:14

striking 29:22

stringent 41:4

strong 300:15

stronger 229:13

strongly 10:7 275:5,14

311:22

structured 200:1

247:10

struggled 89:14 93:1

187:21

studies 319:7,21

stuff 4:11 8:17 15:17

24:16 64:10 66:14,17

67:2 69:8 74:8 154:14

219:13 227:14 232:22

252:4 263:3 297:5

302:13 318:3

subcomponent 53:7

subcontractor 181:3

subject 6:16 125:14

157:13 199:8 207:13

218:3

subjective 231:11

submission 76:7,8,20

84:7 278:8

submit 23:14 70:9

102:4 278:2 291:5

293:12

submitting 83:19

subpoena 101:22 102:8

281:5 284:15,20,22

285:1,5 286:12 287:5

290:8,10,22 291:16

293:12 295:5 296:14

subpoenas 293:15,16

substantive 157:12

subsumed 270:3

suck 210:3

suddenly 187:10,12

sufficient 69:13

sufficiently 119:8

suggest 38:11 69:12

151:20 240:13 286:6

320:11

suggested 129:5

206:10 217:11 281:15

suggesting 221:8

246:12 252:17 263:15

suggestion 21:17 124:8

143:7,19

suggestions 210:22

239:4 262:3

Suite 1:11

summarize 52:5

summary 50:17 51:19

319:7

summon 232:21

superseded 227:5,10

supervisors 276:18

supply 2:2 16:10 17:21

32:9 80:15 87:17 89:7

90:20 98:4 112:19

154:16 156:20 159:5

200:19 203:3 222:13

228:12 231:14 248:10

266:22 268:10 270:16

284:9 290:3 299:2

301:6 316:6

support 16:14 92:18

223:2 301:21 319:12

supported 275:17

294:4 295:12

suppose 12:2 37:17

233:7

supposed 198:11 252:5

supposition 118:12

sure 22:22 28:13 46:9

47:21 52:21 58:10

65:16 68:11 87:6

94:17,22 95:2 96:2

98:9 107:4 118:20,22

121:5 125:20 145:6

148:22 164:7 168:16

168:19 187:14 192:13

193:17 199:14 204:13

212:1 218:14 221:21

222:2 226:21 227:15

228:1 239:19 240:4,9

241:4,9,11 254:20,22

255:3 260:9 267:21

273:6 277:21 287:19

292:19,22 295:21

302:4 309:18 312:11

316:22

surf 95:5

surface 33:9 34:3,17

80:5

survey 70:15 75:8

suspect 140:16

suspenders 311:6,10

311:18

swimming 69:17 70:2

switched 209:12

switching 213:13

sworn 102:9

sync 182:7

synonymous 179:18

system 6:4,6,6,7,22

8:10 10:18 12:17,19

13:2,17,21 14:6,20

16:2,6,15,17 17:12,15

18:9 20:15 21:1 23:1

28:1,6,17 29:2 30:8

31:9,11 32:12,20,22

34:21 35:7 37:7 38:2

38:4,9 39:1,22 44:16

45:20,21 46:4 61:2

70:8 89:16 185:17,18

186:2 192:9,10 193:1

193:5,17 198:4,5,10

200:6 203:1 211:15

211:19 228:9,18

229:20 230:14,19

231:2 233:8,12

234:13 235:6 245:10

263:2 271:15 297:1

307:7 313:17

system's 6:10

systems 15:5,16 25:20

28:10,15 35:5 188:3

282:20 314:9 315:6

T

table 56:9 100:22

226:15 239:5 256:5

259:12,14 260:2

262:1 263:15 298:2

tackle 71:3

tactic 156:16

tactics 315:18

tailored 98:6

tailoring 98:8

take 9:12 42:17 43:1

51:6 65:20 70:20

75:13 98:20 99:1

121:1 124:9 134:8

147:7,19 148:10

150:5,14 151:18

155:17 163:9,9 167:3

167:11 177:11 187:1
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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205:3 219:9 225:7

228:9 238:21 253:6

292:9 299:19 310:2

310:15 312:4 317:16

319:19

taken 62:17 135:11

150:4 227:11

takes 98:10 146:11

148:5 167:4 175:21

177:9 190:20 225:19

253:22 257:13 299:5

talk 4:5 25:7 27:21 32:7

42:6 43:1 57:12 58:2

63:2 65:16 71:11

73:10 87:20 88:6

103:15,17 129:10

131:16 138:5 139:19

143:21 156:3 158:18

159:6 164:8 173:22

187:1 188:14 210:8

226:2 230:18,21

243:20 248:8 256:4

258:22 273:13 292:15

295:17,18 297:19

304:20 306:6

talked 20:8 22:2,13

43:7 52:7,8 58:20

60:7 82:13 95:7

101:15 104:14 107:6

117:11 154:22 159:20

166:8 168:9 176:20

184:7 185:16 188:16

199:6,7 201:9 220:8

228:16 253:13 256:16

276:13 280:6 297:10

315:20

talking 16:16 33:19

45:2 51:10 53:9 64:17

64:19 72:21,22 73:12

81:4 94:16 106:21

111:3,8 119:14 122:9

122:14 126:2 127:12

132:15,18 135:21

138:17 163:1,12

173:4 178:1 179:15

180:8 184:21 186:16

190:6 200:9 216:15

219:1 240:18 242:19

242:20 259:4 267:20

269:8 273:21 292:3

300:20 301:4,6

302:11,13 307:18

talks 17:6 164:11,21

290:7

tall 7:5

taller 8:9,19

target 63:12 104:15

targeted 102:7 106:10

targeting 106:7

task 190:14

taxes 202:1

Tea 232:20

tear-off 159:18

tearing 8:5

technical 195:12

technically 93:2 110:11

110:11 179:2

technician 180:21

181:11 183:12,13,20

209:18

technicians 288:17

technique 73:21 74:11

techniques 73:2

teeth 247:15

teleconference 2:17

telephone 70:15

tell 12:14 31:22 57:8

115:15 121:17 122:6

150:8 178:19 241:9

248:22 259:13 282:11

293:8 314:2,3

tells 20:21 142:20 253:9

274:5

tend 210:7 291:2

312:20

Tennessee 249:22

term 47:11 165:5 167:3

180:2,3,12 181:5

194:13,21 196:1

198:13,16 210:4

228:13 232:12 240:16

262:9 270:7 271:13

288:9

terminate 149:6

terminology 17:16

214:6

terms 19:22 24:15 25:1

36:21 73:14 75:1 81:9

83:4 98:15 127:10,19

143:3 148:14 165:9

166:6 174:11 176:1

186:16 195:12 197:17

200:1 203:12 207:17

217:13 220:17 235:22

236:1 246:14 264:9

277:3 313:7

territory 99:20 139:11

Terry 2:14 3:2 4:5,12,13

5:1,9 11:21 14:22

20:8 29:17,18 36:13

53:18 54:5

Terry's 21:17 24:14

test 108:22 114:20

147:9,10,12

tested 122:22 130:2

testing 32:13 35:22

114:14 119:17 123:15

147:7,17

tests 107:12 114:5,22

123:14 132:20 133:1

Texas 299:14,16 310:12

318:10

text 86:12 215:10

256:17 257:1,6

thank 4:19 11:17,21

19:11 21:15 27:12

35:17 37:12 41:18

76:21 83:12 106:19

133:16 261:7 264:12

278:9 288:12 290:1

294:1 320:4,16

thanks 41:1 270:14

280:3 289:19

theme 19:15

theory 62:8 183:16

they'd 164:15

thick 288:19

thing 23:22 33:5 58:6

63:5 64:16 70:12

78:14 96:18 100:4

104:21 105:5 107:7

107:10,13 111:17,18

112:1 141:3 145:7

148:19 150:17 153:20

156:10 160:20 166:10

166:17 180:6 186:8

187:21 207:6 208:12

208:22 209:10,13,14

209:18 221:15 222:1

222:3 226:14 233:3

237:6,16 239:17

240:1,10,20 241:1,10

244:8 245:18,19

250:18 251:2,5 255:8

255:10 257:18 259:21

263:7 277:18 282:8

288:2 290:1 297:12

308:15 311:19

things 8:22 9:7 21:5

23:12 24:22 53:1

54:15 58:11 59:3,16

63:13,19 65:8 66:20

67:11,21 73:11 74:6

74:16 81:15 82:10,11

82:12 86:11 87:5

94:14 95:7 100:16

102:13 104:15 106:22

114:15 115:22 119:8

121:1 126:22 128:10

128:12,13 129:7

131:14 133:21 136:14

144:19 146:5 148:1

150:3,14,19 154:12

155:21 160:5,19,19

160:22 164:15 168:2

168:13 169:1,6

170:18 179:18 184:6

186:15 187:14,18

188:19 197:13 204:9

215:3 232:2 235:2

242:22 243:21 245:15

251:7,17 252:2 260:3

260:6 264:3 272:5,19

272:22 273:14 283:14

287:20 293:10 304:14

311:13 312:1 313:21

think 4:5 6:14 8:15 12:3

12:16 13:10 15:21

16:21 20:6 21:7 23:8

25:9,17 29:19 31:19

34:5,6,13,16 37:3

39:12 40:10 42:19

48:10 49:6,12 50:1,2

50:8 51:18 52:7,17,20

53:2,17 54:4,18 55:12

55:18 56:7,13 58:15

61:19 62:18,21 63:4

63:22 64:16 65:11

66:14,20 67:4,9,13

68:10,14 69:3 70:12

71:2,12,21 72:17,17

73:7,15 74:9,10 75:1

75:4,10 77:7,15 80:4

81:4,7,18,20 82:1,13

82:15 83:5 85:3,4,8

85:10,14,15,22 86:3,3

86:4,7,18 87:18 89:4

89:5 90:7 92:6 95:8

95:22 96:3,9 97:3,12

98:21 99:18 100:7,12

100:18 102:14 104:7

104:14,20 106:5

109:18,21 110:4,7,7,9

110:22 111:5,15

112:13 116:7 117:16

118:3,5 121:10 124:5

124:5,12 125:2,14,16

125:22 127:4,7,11,15

127:17 128:6 129:3,6

130:6,7,8,18,22 131:9

133:8,19,22 135:15

137:15,21,22 138:3

138:11 139:6,11,13

140:10,14,19,22

141:1,3,15,17 142:6

142:12,14 143:3

144:3,17 145:11

146:19 148:4,8,8,10

148:21 150:17 151:12

151:17 152:3,15,21

152:22 153:10 154:8
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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156:13,17,22 157:19

158:12,17 159:7,12

160:7 161:6,17

162:17,18,19,22

163:7 164:2 165:3,12

166:3,10,12 168:21

169:7 170:8,10,13

171:2,9,17,21 172:1

172:17 174:19,21

175:5,22 177:22

179:2,5 181:9,21

182:6,10,13,20 184:1

184:21 185:9 186:17

186:18 187:2,18,21

188:4,19 189:7,15

190:1,5,16 192:16

193:19 194:8,11

195:7,10 197:19,22

199:3,5,6,10,12 200:9

201:2,2,3,8 202:11,13

203:14,16,21 204:6

204:16 206:11 210:5

211:16 212:5,17,18

213:15,22 216:4,10

216:15 219:16 220:11

222:10,17,17 223:5

223:20 224:18 225:9

225:12,13,17 226:8

226:16 228:16 229:17

230:7 231:5,10,14,15

232:7 233:20,22

234:2,4,8 236:6

237:18 238:11 240:14

241:5 242:2,15,18

243:14 244:17,20

246:9 247:1,9 250:7

250:12 251:11 254:12

254:14 255:14 256:18

257:3 260:3,7,12,17

261:3,22 262:17

263:9 264:1,6,18

265:7 266:19,22

268:7 269:7 270:14

271:3 272:1 273:22

274:17 275:16 280:22

281:4,11,15,15,18

282:18 283:18 284:4

284:6 285:12 286:10

288:6 290:7,14 291:6

291:9,15,16 293:5

294:7,7,9,10,12,18

295:16 296:5,10

297:21 299:3,5,11,18

302:12 303:16 305:22

306:20 307:19 308:4

308:12 309:15,19

310:21 311:12 313:20

313:21 315:1,1,3

319:20,21 321:9

thinking 74:21 75:21

116:8 159:3 160:15

164:20 171:13 174:11

188:20 192:20 213:4

222:9 235:19 255:17

259:6,16,19 260:8

267:2 283:22 298:11

third 157:12 166:16

191:21 245:19 252:4

257:21

Thirteen 272:20

thorny 109:8 149:20

thorough 117:8

thought 19:21 41:9

55:16 58:21 67:19

71:1,4 118:12 120:5

123:7 129:4 158:13

161:6 163:22 190:16

195:3,3 196:3 207:17

207:18,21 211:10

218:9 229:12 233:3

259:3 283:4 286:11

thoughts 51:17 64:12

101:7 103:20 162:15

163:8 172:2 210:21

256:9 267:5 280:9

thousand 13:12 88:4

171:7

three 65:14,18 68:6

82:16,16 88:10

146:17 148:6,7

153:17,22 168:21

170:20 212:12 259:3

259:19 264:7 282:2

300:4 317:3,10

three-day 57:6

threshold 136:7 153:16

153:17,21 154:6,7

throttling 146:20

throw 160:18 186:15

306:11

thrown 66:22 101:16

thwart 96:3

thwarting 169:6

tied 233:4

tiers 82:16

tight 8:7 160:20,20,20

tightened 307:22

till 320:8

Tim 37:13 39:15 42:4

74:14 105:21 151:6

153:14 199:3,10,18

199:21 200:8 203:14

213:3 215:9 216:12

227:2 255:12 256:6,9

259:6,10 264:4

269:19 270:4 278:10

283:21

Tim's 206:2 219:16

time 31:2 42:18 43:1

46:11 50:3 52:11 55:2

57:4 64:9,18 65:12

78:22 80:19 85:6 97:7

102:18 103:21 114:14

139:5 144:2 146:11

146:13 150:6,13,14

156:10 157:2 158:4

162:18 163:11 170:9

171:5 190:4,8 207:18

213:2,5 223:16 226:2

226:14,15 238:7,16

244:7,8 249:18

251:16,19 252:5

258:14 279:14 295:13

296:9 317:1 319:2

time-line 150:8

timely 84:18,21 149:22

times 78:1 90:12

169:16,21 239:8

245:9 246:4 248:4

249:6

TIMOTHY 1:15

tiptop 292:8

Title 126:10

today 4:9 18:9 27:15

28:1,22 29:2 30:10

31:1 38:19 41:5 44:13

45:13 46:13 51:7

52:20 77:2 83:13

92:11 93:6 94:2

108:16,19,22 116:11

147:4 150:19 222:22

250:19 284:12,14

288:3 295:16 311:13

319:2

today's 300:21

told 103:18 107:18

177:14 226:12 248:19

252:3

tomorrow 158:1 321:17

ton 9:17,21 10:2 43:19

tonight 163:21 188:15

320:9

tools 100:21 101:4

286:4 306:12

top 7:6 14:9 115:13

130:11 290:9

topic 42:22 49:19

162:20 170:7

total 263:6

totally 101:2 246:2

touch 318:13

touches 164:22

town 228:20 249:14

townhomes 186:7

traceable 68:14

track 27:1,3,4,10 63:8

99:12 116:20 117:13

280:21 296:12

tracked 100:15

tracking 27:8 60:18

63:10 117:8 119:3

trade 26:13 210:17

314:5

trademark 270:8

traditional 98:4

trail 133:14

training 263:7

transferring 90:2

transition 190:19

292:10

transportation 310:8

transported 185:22

traveling 50:21

treacherous 117:11

treat 53:11

treated 53:10,21 54:2

treatment 10:17 12:7

treats 66:16

trial 40:1

tries 97:18

trifold 58:5 59:8

trifolds 58:21

trigger 165:16,21

166:16

triggers 208:5

tripping 37:1

trouble 154:17 160:1

217:7 263:5

truck 68:13 87:21

208:12 253:19 306:12

312:1

truckload 310:10

trucks 302:2

true 13:22 75:9 76:18

190:2 218:8 237:12

237:13,14 314:19

truly 210:16

trump 223:7

trust 84:13

trusts 221:16

try 33:3 52:5 84:5 89:14

93:9 133:2,20 157:21

157:22 177:15 210:9

234:1 244:19 245:1,2

254:21 276:8 312:15

313:4

trying 17:18 37:14

61:20 63:4 71:14 88:4

89:15 90:3 93:17

124:5 125:18 133:6

148:19 151:1 174:7
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

352

184:22 185:10 186:15

195:14 198:3 211:16

214:19,21 215:4,15

217:3 221:18 226:11

229:6 234:22 235:20

239:12,13,15 240:2,4

240:21 241:3,6,9

244:2,21 247:6

252:19 254:19 256:17

257:7 261:20 274:9

275:5 279:9 283:2,2,7

292:19 311:11 314:19

315:2

tube 10:1 12:8 36:8,11

tubes 13:8

Tuesday 158:21

turn 18:16 193:16,21

194:3 197:11 255:12

255:21

turned 186:11 188:3

198:12 303:18

turning 82:4 187:11

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turns 109:1 194:4

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twice 71:21 169:19

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two 6:13,18 20:8 35:20

39:17 59:3 67:20 69:3

71:16 73:8 81:14

88:10 102:22 136:12

146:18 154:1 165:14

168:18 170:20 172:18

177:7 179:17 194:9

195:18 216:3,10

233:22 234:1 247:9

256:8 257:6 264:3

273:19 290:3 317:10

321:13

two-day 72:13

twofold 317:5

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type 8:16 9:5 24:16,22

58:6 71:3 100:5,22

154:13 155:20 166:7

209:5 232:21 280:20

types 24:9 82:16 280:9

typical 304:18

typically 6:9 9:8,12

78:13 147:14 168:12

180:3 200:3 261:10

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95:15 120:21 318:1

ultimate 199:9 211:14

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ultimately 94:9 190:4

213:10 214:3 291:19

306:22

unable 84:20

unanimous 238:20

unaware 155:9

uncased 25:22 26:22

uncertainty 171:18

uncomfortable 121:15

233:1 295:9 312:20

uncommon 48:20

undefined 225:15,16

underneath 267:2

undersized 32:15

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24:14 28:14 37:14

49:13 53:13 54:17

62:14,20 74:6 95:9

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121:20 133:7 144:17

145:17 147:3 155:12

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163:19 164:9 212:15

218:22 222:11 241:13

246:17 250:8 254:19

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understanding 21:13

59:2 85:5 86:5 91:5

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269:12 275:22 292:21

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undertook 69:16

unearth 140:21

unease 232:11

unfair 140:19

unfortunately 17:13

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uniform 87:22

unintended 184:6

unique 189:13

unit 7:5 10:10,12,13

12:5 13:5,13,15,18

14:2,12 16:15,18 17:6

19:18 22:11 29:11

31:11 32:2,17 33:6

38:1 39:17,20 40:1

45:19 46:5,7 53:11

64:8 70:14 75:7 78:10

87:12 110:18 113:11

113:16 115:6 120:13

120:20,22 123:8

128:3 131:20 132:3

142:17 184:16 185:19

195:5 197:2 202:20

204:4 275:19 302:17

303:10 305:16 309:2

312:9,15

unit's 201:17

unit-centered 192:4

unitary 60:21

United 299:11

units 17:21 24:5,13

29:4 30:16 38:19 93:6

93:10 112:11,17

113:3,4 114:17

119:20 120:17 121:17

122:4,7 124:10 125:4

132:21 136:18 148:16

152:5 186:10 249:13

304:3 314:7

universe 260:6 295:20

297:7

unlawful 139:5 236:14

240:15 257:8 258:2

265:11,12 270:20

unnecessary 290:14

unprecedented 155:20

unrealistically 33:22

unusual 307:6

unworkable 196:4

update 55:21

updating 321:6

upstairs 71:12

upstream 89:22

upward 115:9

upwards 119:4

urgent 64:5

usage 302:6

use 31:6 48:15 61:13

63:3,4 73:3,6 75:21

100:20 101:4 102:1,2

161:19 179:22,22

180:3 193:5,8,22

194:12,19 195:13

211:11 228:5 236:2

267:18 283:6,17,18

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useful 65:15 106:14

184:2 283:22

useless 84:11

user 145:19 268:15

users 268:3

uses 62:6 205:15

259:18

usually 55:3 108:10

186:12 188:21 289:2

utilities 1:19 67:18

319:11,11

utility 79:6,13,19 80:3

80:10,11

utilize 73:20

utilizing 81:22

V

vacuum 263:2 276:10

vague 141:14 269:11

vagueness 141:21,22

valid 151:5 157:8

186:18

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value 59:8 74:12 122:19

122:20 212:19 261:1

variable 211:17

variations 238:18

varies 55:9

variety 280:6

various 245:21 299:14

310:17

vary 48:10 237:17

vast 18:9 39:2 87:7

vastly 236:7

vendor 288:17

verbiage 22:6

verification 110:17

versus 23:20 24:21

39:14 82:5 112:20

135:9 179:16 199:16

243:10

vested 286:19

vetting 223:17

view 53:10 59:7 63:6,18

67:11 95:4 104:16

127:14 129:11 130:1

130:8 135:5 142:18

158:3 168:12 169:11

171:4 183:9 184:3

197:3,14 204:20

241:18 243:15 271:12

309:7

viewable 315:13,19

316:2

viewing 131:15

viewpoint 45:9

views 242:10

vigorously 111:22

violate 130:16 142:20

143:5 200:2 206:7

213:18 215:14 218:20

224:11 225:4 231:7

231:21 238:7 257:20

272:6,19 306:3

violated 14:4 141:13

172:10 222:8 249:1

249:17 252:22

violates 164:12 173:7

218:1 221:10 224:22
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

353

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258:10,17 272:4

273:3

violating 140:5 175:5

177:3 218:13 219:10

220:22 236:9 237:11

241:1 247:18 248:20

violation 3:8 123:4

126:8,13 134:17

135:19 136:8 137:12

141:6,7,8,9 142:16,22

143:9 144:11 145:2

146:1 152:2 154:19

155:5,6 157:6,14,14

159:9 160:3 161:15

163:13 164:7,9

165:14 166:7,7,15

167:9 172:6,8,13,16

172:21 174:7,10,13

174:15 178:11 182:2

185:8 186:5 192:22

192:22 197:1,9,13,16

197:21 198:2,5,14,17

198:17 200:5,5,11,16

200:16 202:4,20,22

203:13 206:2,10

207:6,7 208:20,20

209:3,15 211:9,17

213:5,10,14 214:3,13

214:14,17,22 215:21

216:1,19 217:1

220:16 221:5 222:3

223:13,16 224:8

225:1 226:4 228:6,7

229:2,19 230:3,8,12

231:16 233:10 234:11

235:2,6 240:17

241:19 242:2 244:7

245:6,9,13,17 246:5

246:13 248:15,17

252:10 259:1 260:17

264:17 277:16 278:6

297:10 299:7 308:8

violations 20:1,1

141:14,18 153:18

157:3 162:17 165:6,6

165:14 185:1 197:7

210:7,8 234:4,6,7

236:1 240:1 263:10

303:4 308:11

violative 143:6 187:12

221:7

violator 136:21 137:7

138:13,20 139:4,9

140:18 144:11 149:2

151:20 152:11 167:13

236:22 248:16 299:4

violators 135:8,10

136:1 146:6 155:15

262:2 299:19

Virginia 7:1 8:1,19 9:16

12:3 93:10 229:14

249:4 253:1,10

visible 293:22

visual 314:9,15

volume 18:7 34:18

35:14 36:20 49:5

volume-based 18:6

volumes 48:12

voluntarily 81:10 82:11

voluntary 61:1

volunteered 248:3

volunteering 144:13

voting 51:7

W

wait 19:4

waiting 40:1 97:11

226:8

waiver 4:6 11:11,13

75:22 81:16,17,22

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waiving 11:13

walk 313:22

walks 193:18

want 4:11,18 10:22

13:12 16:1 18:16 23:5

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40:11 50:17 51:14,15

52:21 54:16 55:6

56:17 63:18 65:10,13

65:15,17,19 74:4

75:13 77:9,12 81:3,12

84:4 93:9 94:17,22

96:1 97:9 98:9,12

100:17 101:8,18

102:16 103:14,22

104:3,5 105:2,13

106:6,14,20 107:4

111:11,14 112:15

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124:5,12 128:17

131:6 133:16 134:11

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147:20,22 149:19

150:5 151:17 152:6

153:9 154:4,10 156:3

156:14,17 158:8,9

159:22 160:17,19

161:21 163:9 164:8

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170:21 171:16,19

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178:13 180:17 184:6

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204:14 212:22 214:7

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259:13,22 260:6

263:12,16 264:10

266:16 271:4,8

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278:16,18 279:16

283:8 284:5,6,17,17

285:17 286:8 287:18

289:15 290:12,17

292:21 295:11 297:7

297:12,19 308:6

309:6,10,18 313:13

318:18 320:5,22

wanted 4:5,9 29:17,22

45:1 49:11 66:3 76:4

137:14 138:16 145:4

153:13 158:18 164:6

167:14 203:17 259:8

267:21 295:19

wanting 251:4

wants 40:7 42:10 164:2

220:9 248:8 250:17

250:22,22 251:1

290:17

warehouse 314:1

warmer 33:18

warning 155:20,21

156:4 162:7

warranties 18:1 29:10

29:15 92:17

warranty 3:7 7:12,13

17:22 18:4 26:13 27:3

29:12 48:2,4,8,13,16

48:19 49:1 99:8,15

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wasn't 13:5 25:12 64:9

81:22 139:15 204:1

291:4

water 56:22

waters 216:9

wax 34:10

way 9:3 16:21 17:13

18:17 22:14 26:17

30:14,22 50:12 66:1

69:4 71:3,9 72:8

74:12 75:18 77:21

83:2 86:16,20 89:6,10

91:3,4 96:2,3,4 98:17

99:11 119:3 124:5,6

125:21 129:19 131:17

134:12 135:16 136:13

139:2 141:15 142:8

143:5,14 145:20

151:9 153:10,18

166:13 174:1 199:22

200:10 203:18 204:5

211:13,20 217:2

221:22 222:8 223:14

224:18 226:4 228:21

229:2,9 232:13

235:21 247:9,10,15

251:14 256:3,7 260:8

271:2,12 272:11,12

275:20 276:11 282:3

283:6 287:14 291:14

293:9,14 296:11

300:1,13 309:11

313:8 316:19 317:9

320:1

ways 63:3,4 69:3 75:21

97:9 136:12 152:13

153:6 155:14 166:8

313:6 314:8,20 315:3

315:7 316:14,15

we'll 4:11 33:6,15 43:9

61:13 114:21 162:22

163:2,4 186:22

195:21 196:9,17

211:6 226:15 238:21

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21:5 24:19 33:17,19

33:22 41:6 50:13

52:10,21 53:3,9 55:14

58:15 59:18 61:9,20

63:13,15 66:7 67:11

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85:10,12 86:3,6 88:7

88:14 89:4,5,10 91:18

92:18 94:14 95:11

97:20 100:14 102:11

105:3,18 106:14,21

111:2,5,8,16 114:19

114:20 115:5,8,8,13

117:16 119:2 122:9

122:16 124:9,16

126:2 132:5,15

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

354

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165:11 172:1 175:7

175:10 177:18,21

178:1,11 179:2

184:21,22 185:10

186:16 188:12 190:6

190:11 201:3,8,10

204:11 211:8 213:1

214:6,9,11,19,21

215:15 216:5,7,15

217:2,7 221:21

226:11 227:6 228:1

235:21 236:14 238:14

240:4,16,18,21

242:17,18,20 244:1

244:21 246:5,6,10

247:10 249:19,22

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263:18 266:2 269:4,5

270:1 274:11,15

275:4,5 279:10,17,20

283:1,2,12 286:2

289:12 292:17,19,20

293:3,5,8 300:11,15

300:20 301:6 302:13

313:21 314:11,19

315:7 316:10,18

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50:4 52:8,9 54:15

61:8,8 64:15 73:11

77:2 89:3 90:12 92:22

99:14 101:15,16

107:6 110:2 117:11

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165:12 166:8 177:18

180:19 184:7 192:3

194:11 202:18 204:5

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315:20 320:3,7 321:6

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web 146:16

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316:3

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week 4:4 5:5 7:21,22

51:10 63:1 74:15

116:18 123:7 134:21

139:12 146:5 154:9

226:13 307:17

week's 158:14

weekend 4:4 57:5,7

202:9,15

weeks 17:16 39:17

174:4 186:12 247:9

weigh 144:6

weight 239:12 240:3

went 13:14 29:8 35:11

39:19,20 64:8 99:4

113:5,5,6,7,12,16

115:13,15,18,19

120:16 124:12 133:3

163:17 209:13 239:1

321:20

weren't 120:17

whack 204:12

whacked 305:16

whatever's 289:9

whichever 98:17

whistleblower 89:17

159:18 251:13

white 2:6 77:16 87:3,4

88:2 104:4,4,8 106:19

127:15 144:5,5

169:13,13 202:2,2,18

206:17,17,22 208:4,4

267:6,6,10 288:14,14

wholesale 263:19

wholesaler 89:8 280:15

289:1

wholesaler's 87:10

wholesalers 90:2 289:2

wide 11:13

wilderness 153:6

willing 58:9 70:6,19

160:9

Wilmington 305:22

win 117:2

wind 79:18 312:10

window 156:9 279:1

315:15

WINNINGHAM 2:7

35:18 108:13 315:10

Wisconsin 93:7

wish 117:1

wonder 53:20 194:12

233:1

wondering 5:3 11:5

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199:22

word 131:7 164:17

179:22,22 198:18

246:14 258:13,15

300:15 320:17 321:3

321:5

words 37:11 47:9 165:6

work 8:5,6,8 13:2 38:8

38:14 55:4 57:15 63:7

71:5 72:14 85:1,3,6

87:18 95:2 97:9 125:2

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175:1 190:9 193:22

203:6 208:2 223:14

243:17 251:13 253:17

275:14,21 279:5

287:4 294:13 299:13

299:14,16 306:19

318:2

workable 83:4 294:19

worked 25:6 72:15

working 1:3 4:19 59:18

83:3 246:6,9 247:4

259:7,8 294:19 315:7

320:18

workload 274:10

workplace 206:5

works 9:4 192:13 194:4

196:8 204:21 275:20

world 50:20 62:16

150:7 160:21 185:16

293:4

worry 249:6 256:17

321:14

worse 302:19

worst 255:1

worth 54:20 74:21

120:14 148:17 154:21

171:21 200:4

worthy 108:2 168:3

174:5 283:19

wouldn't 105:12 108:8

109:2,5 112:22 114:7

130:15 139:22 143:11

228:21 229:2 237:21

248:20 252:18,18

286:13,16 287:9

288:9 295:10 307:11

309:4

wrap 261:20

wrapped 95:21

wrestle 220:15 241:4

writ 52:19 54:13 169:12

267:17

write 97:13 100:17

writing 97:20 98:6

231:19

written 24:6 30:22

224:19 231:17

wrong 64:4,9,9 90:1

115:18 116:4 122:1,5

135:20 179:7,7

216:21 217:18 218:5

221:15 222:1,3

225:10 227:22 264:22

308:15

X

X 104:21 137:6,7,8

168:11 252:9,10

Y

Y 137:6,7

yada 150:21,21,21

year 6:22 7:8,12 18:11

65:12 76:15 87:11

146:18 148:13 165:7

171:8 188:4 288:20

301:10 318:3

years 13:11 15:20

17:19 18:11,11,11

29:6,16 32:19 48:6,17

48:17 65:15,18 69:18

70:4 75:20 80:22

110:3 111:21 148:11

165:7 191:8,11 289:4

304:19

yesterday 19:8

yield 19:19

Z

zero 312:8

0

05 29:15

1

1 7:12 18:10 26:12

39:10 43:22 44:13

46:14 47:9 88:14,14

88:15 188:6 206:3

256:21

1,000 88:15 113:3,4

124:10 132:21 133:1

133:3

1,000-apartment 89:20

1:30 163:10,15

1:34 163:18

10 5:10 14:3,13,19

28:21 29:5,11 31:11

32:1 33:6 44:20 45:16

45:18 46:2,5,13 47:3

47:5 48:17 88:15 99:1

171:8 246:4 289:16

292:2 320:8

10-15 15:20 301:10

10-year 7:12 17:22

29:10

10:43 99:4

10:57 99:5

100 88:14 111:21

125:11 316:21

1000 1:11

11 3:3 32:19

11:53 163:17

12 29:15 32:19 48:6,17

12-year 48:3
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

355

12.5 132:21

12.6 109:1

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12/31 49:21

13 7:4 9:18 29:8 36:10

44:16 45:21 46:2,6,7

47:5 59:10 108:16,22

122:12,13 123:13,15

189:5 229:15 250:9

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309:2 312:8,15

13's 312:5

13.0 114:8 115:7

13.2 114:5

13.6 107:12 109:5,13

115:12 133:1

13.8 114:4,22 115:12

123:14

134 3:8

14 5:16 7:18 9:21 10:2

14:10,11 16:17 17:15

19:20 20:22 23:1

31:12 33:5 38:22

41:14 44:16 49:19

107:7,11 109:4

114:19,21 119:10,11

119:17,18 122:20

123:14,17 130:5

132:22 161:22 271:6

298:13 312:10

14's 312:5

14.0 109:14 113:12,13

115:12 132:20

15 17:19 18:11 41:14

150:20 168:10 238:19

238:21 270:6

15-year-old 39:20

15th 55:1

16 271:17

163 3:8

18 188:4

18-2 9:12

18-inch 7:5

18-month 282:14

2

2 18:11 187:12 202:3

203:16

2.5 9:21

2:45 239:1

20 80:21 126:10

2000 45:19

2004 44:20

2005 29:8,8

2006 36:10 45:21 48:4,6

2010 187:22 188:6

2013 12:3

2014 1:8 294:4

2015 7:7

2016 190:19

24-inch 10:1,2

25 55:10

297 3:9

3

3 1:8 22:7 65:11

3-ton 7:4

3,300 250:4

3.5 9:17 10:2

3:12 239:2

30 190:19 275:3 289:12

296:20

30-day 278:22

4

4 3:2 232:1

4:30 318:21

4:36 321:20

4:45 164:5

410A 43:19

5

5 18:11,11 65:11 99:2

245:10

50 70:17

500 113:4,5,6,7 124:11

186:10

56 3:4

6

6291 270:5,6

6302 200:10

64 3:6

7

7 44:10

8

8-year-old 12:5

80 161:9

8E-089 1:11

9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

356

Central Air Conditioning Regional

Standards Enforcement Working Group

US DOE

09-03-14

Washington, DC