1-1 

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANS PO~~ E I v ED 

OFFICE OF HEARINJj'1\ C V 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

JAN G 5 2017 

HEARING DOCKET 

PACIFIC INTERNATIONAL 

SKYDIVING, INC., 

FDMS No. 

FAA-2014-1116 

Respondent 

Volume I 

Tuesday, 

December 13, 2016 

District of Hawaii 

U.S. District Court 

300 Ala Moana Boulevard 

Honolulu, Hawaii 96850 

The hearing convened, pursuant to 

notice, at 9:00 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE DOUGLAS M. RAWALD, 

U.S. Administrative Law Judge 

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APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

DON BOBERTZ, ESQ. 

of: Federal Aviation Administration 

Office of the Regional Counsel, AWP-7 

Western-Pacific Region 

P.O. Box 92007 

Los Angeles, California 90009-2007 

310-725-3454 

310-725-6816 (Fax) 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

ROBERT L. FELDMAN, ESQ. 

of: Law Offices of Robert Feldman 

8900 SW 107th Avenue, Suite 203 

Miami, Florida 33176 

305-598-4841 

(202) 234-4433 

305-598-4842 (Fax) 

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CONTENTS 

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

Kyle Bartler 

Edward Elena 

37 

93 

Frank Hinshaw 139 

Voir Dire on page 156 

EXHIBIT NO. 

Administrator 

45/89 

101 

227 

133 

285 

A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-9, A-10, A-11, 

A-12, A-17, A-18, 

A-22, A-23, A-24, 

A-28, A-29, A-3 0, 

A-34, A-35, A-36, 

A-40, A-41, A-42, 

A-46, A-47, A-48, 

A-52, A-53, A-54, 

A-6 Declaration 

A- 8 Declaration 

A-13 email chain 

A-16 email chain 

A-19, A-20, A-21, 

A-25, A-26, A-27, 

A-31, A-32, A-33, 

A-37, A-3 8, A-3 9, 

A-43, A-44, A-45, 

A-4 9, A-50, A-51, 

A-55 and A-56 

A-5, A-7, A-14, A-15 Photographs 

Respondent 

R-3, R-6, R-14, R-15, R-16, R-17, 

R-18, R-19, R-20, R-21, R-23, R-24 

R-12 

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MARK RECD 

6 7 

40 42 

43 44 

96 97 

133 134 

145 166 

8 9 

276 

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1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (9:11a.m.) 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Good morning. On the 

4 record. 

5 I'm Administrative Law Judge Doug 

6 Rawald. Today' s date is December 13th, 2016. 

7 This is the hearing in the case of the 

8 qualification of Pacific International Skydiving 

9 Center, Docket Number FAA-2014-1116. 

10 Government counsel, could you please 

11 introduce yourself at this time? 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. My 

13 name is Don Bobertz, last name is spelled B-o-b14 e-r-t-z. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. And sorry, I 

16 notice at counsel table with you is someone else. 

17 Can you please introduce that person as well? 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, this is Paul 

19 McCowan, and he is my expert skydiving. Go ahead 

20 and spell your name. 

21 MR. McCOWAN: Last name is McCowan, M22 c-e-o-w-a-n. I'm with the FAA. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: That's okay. That's 

2 all I need to know. That's sufficient. Thank 

3 you. 

4 MR. McCOWAN: Oh, okay. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: And Respondent counsel, 

6 if you could please introduce yourself? 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, my name is 

8 Robert Feldman, I represent the Respondent, 

9 Pacific International Skydiving. To my left is 

10 Mr. Gebanau who is president of the Pacific 

11 International Skydiving's parent corporation, 

12 SkyMed, Inc. To his left is Tom Sanders who is 

13 our expert regarding the matters in this case. 

14 And behind me is Jeanine Feldman who, besides 

15 being my spouse, is my legal assistant. 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you for 

17 introducing everyone. 

18 So and Respondent, do you waive a 

19 reading of the issues in this case? 

20 MR. FELDMAN: I'm sorry? 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: Do you waive a reading 

22 of the issues in this case? 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your Honor. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Then we'll go 

3 ahead and move on to the substance. 

4 Before the hearing the parties met and 

5 agreed to allow admission of the following 

6 exhibits without objection. I'll go through the 

7 ones they've actually agreed to. 

8 That's Exhibit A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A9 9' A-10, A-11, A-12, A-17, A-18, A-19, A-20, A10 21' A-22, A-23, A-24, A-25, A-26, A-27, A-28, A11 29, A-3 0, A-31, A-32, A-33, A-34, A-35, A-36, A12 37, A-38, A-39, A-4 0, A-41, A-42, A-43, A-44, A13 45, A-46, A-47, A-48, A-49, A-50, A-51, A-52, A14 53, A-54, A-55 and A-56. 

15 (The heretofore referred to 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

documents were marked for 

identification as 

Administrator Exhibits 

Number A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, 

A-9, A-10, A-11, A-12, A-17, 

A-18, A-19, A-20, A-21, A22, A-23, A-24, A-25, A-26, 

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1 A-27, A-28, A-29, A-30, A2 31, A-32, A-33, A-34, A-35, 

3 A-36, A-37, A-38, A-39, A4 40, A-41, A-42, A-43, A-44, 

5 A-45, A-46, A-47, A-48, A6 49, A-50, A-51, A-52, A-53, 

7 A-54, A-55 and A-56.) 

8 JUDGE RAWALD : Mr. Feldman, I just 

9 want to confirm, do you have any objection to the 

10 admission of those documents? 

11 MR. FELDMAN: No, Your Honor. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. At this time 

13 I'll go ahead and admit those. 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

(The documents marked for 

identification as 

Administrator Exhibits 

Number A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, 

A-9, A-10, A-11, A-12, A-17, 

A-18, A-19, A-20, A-21, A22, A-23, A-24, A-25, A-26, 

A-27, A-28, A-29, A-30, A31, A-32, A-33, A-34, A-35, 

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1 A-36, A-37, A-38, A-39, A2 40, A-41, A-42, A-43, A-44, 

3 A-45, A-46, A-47, A-48, A4 49, A-50, A-51, A-52, A-53, 

5 A-54, A-55 and A-56 were 

6 received into evidence.) 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: And then also the 

8 following Respondent's Exhibits were also offered 

9 to be admitted without objection. R-3, R-6, R10 14, R-15, R-16, R-17, R-18, R-19, R-20, R-21, R11 23, R-24. 

12 (The heretofore referred to 

13 documents were marked for 

14 identification as Respondent 

15 Exhibits Number R-3, R-6, R16 14, R-15, R-16, R-17, R-18, 

17 R- 19 , R- 2 0 , R- 21 , R- 2 3 and 

18 R-24.) 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz, can you 

20 confirm, do you have any objections to those 

21 documents at all? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. There being no 

2 objection those will be admitted as well. 

3 (The documents marked for 

4 identification as Respondent 

5 Exhibits Number R-3, R-6, R6 14, R-15, R-16, R-17, R-18, 

7 R- 19 , R- 2 0 , R- 2 1 , R- 2 3 and 

8 R-24 were received into 

9 evidence.) 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Before the hearing Mr. 

11 Feldman submitted some documents that he has 

12 since withdrawn because they were duplicative of 

13 the ones the government offered as well. And so 

14 at this time I just want to be clear with Mr. 

15 Feldman, Mr. Feldman, do you will want to 

16 withdraw Exhibits R-1, R-2, R-4, R-5, R-13 and R17 22? 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your Honor. We --

19 counsel for the Administrator and I have 

20 stipulated that we can use each other's exhibits 

21 in this case so there's no need 

22 duplicative. 

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to be 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Right. That's exactly 

2 right, we don't want to be wasting the time and 

3 energy with duplicative exhibits. 

4 Okay. So now we've narrowed down to 

5 what exhibits will be possibly admitted during 

6 the course of the hearing and everything else has 

7 been preadmitted. 

8 Also before we met today the 

9 government submitted a motion in limine on 

10 December 5th regarding the testimony of a witness 

11 they wish to exclude, Mr. Bobertz, from the 

12 Respondent's witness list. 

13 On December 7th Mr. Feldman submitted 

14 a motion -- a response saying he's not going to 

15 call that witness thereby making the motion moot. 

16 I do want to reaffirm, Mr. Feldman, do you still 

17 wish to withdraw that witness request? 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your Honor. 

19 There's no point in leaving that witness in. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Then I don't 

21 have to rule on that motion. I appreciate it. 

22 Now last thing, before we started this 

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1 morning, Mr. Feldman and Mr. Bobertz did approach 

2 me and discuss a certain -- a couple issues that 

3 we had outside of the presence of the witnesses. 

4 And the main issue Mr. Bobertz wanted to bring up 

5 to me, he wanted to approach the possibility of 

6 amending the complaint. Mr. Bobertz, can you 

7 please take that up now? 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor, thank 

9 you. 

10 Your Honor, may I approach? 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: You may. 

12 (Brief pause.) 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: And Mr. Bobertz, I do 

14 want to advise that in accordance with CFR 

15 section 13.214, amendment of pleading is only 

16 allowed less than 15 days before the scheduled 

17 date of a hearing with good cause. So can you 

18 please describe what your good cause is for 

19 wanting to amend the complaint at this point in 

20 time? 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. Can 

22 you hear me okay? I don't sound like I'm coming 

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1 on the microphone. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Can you hear me okay? 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: I can hear you. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Court reporter, can you 

6 hear me? 

7 Okay. So it appeared that Respondent 

8 may -- gave some indication that he may contest 

9 jurisdiction in this case because once we've 

1 o combined the two cases the total civil penalty 

11 amount exceeds 50,000, the threshold for this 

12 jurisdiction versus district court jurisdiction. 

13 The case originally started as two separate 

14 actions, two separate EIRs, enforcement 

15 investigative reports, two separate notices of 

16 proposed certification action were issued. I 

17 made the mistake and there's -- in not following 

18 our FAA order 2153(b), it talks about the cases 

19 should be combined only after the complaint is 

20 issued. 

21 However, the cases are -- were always 

22 addressed separately in the notice of -- final 

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1 notice of proposed civil penalty in the complaint 

2 and stated that there are two separate complaints 

3 going together. So I think this is more of a 

4 formality but in an abundance of caution I wanted 

5 to issue an amended complaint to separate the 

6 cases back into their original form where there's 

7 two separate cases. One, the first one for the 

8 December 8th and January 5th violations and the 

9 second one for the March 22nd and March 23rd, 

10 2014 violations. And then immediately follow 

11 that up with a motion to recombine the cases. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: So the end effect would 

13 be that we would back here doing the same thing 

14 just it would be with two different complaints 

15 underlying this? 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: Exactly. But so the 

17 actual allegations, the violations, nothing has 

18 changed. There's -- the Respondent has, I don't 

19 believe, been prejudiced by having to defend 

20 against something different if the allegations 

21 have always been the same. You know, it's still 

22 within -- you know, what's really governing is 

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1 the statute 49 USC 46301 D-4, A-3 which provides 

2 district courts of the United States have 

3 exclusive jurisdiction of a civil action 

4 involving a penalty the administrator initiates 

5 if the amount in controversy is more than 50,000 

6 if the violation was committed by an individual 

7 or small business concern. 

8 So we've always figured that Pacific 

9 International Aviation was a small business 

10 concern, that's not the issue. The -- it really 

11 is and always has been two separate cases that 

12 were combined prematurely in accordance with the 

13 -- our order for judicial efficiency but the net 

14 result would have been the same anyway. It would 

15 have just been combined later as it is being 

16 combined now. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD : Understood. Now Mr. 

18 Feldman, I understand that you have not had any 

19 time to take up this issue or prepare for it so I 

20 want to know, do you want to respond to it now or 

21 do you wish to respond to it later at some point 

22 possibly in writing? 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: I think I can make a 

2 response at this point, Your Honor. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

4 MR. FELDMAN: First of all the 

5 statement that it doesn't prejudice the 

6 Respondent is false. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

8 MR. FELDMAN: When we submitted 

9 interrogatories the Complainant objected because 

10 -- to the second set because the number exceeded 

11 the number permitted by the rule. Had this been 

12 two separate cases we would have been able to --

13 we were forced to combine two sets of instances 

14 in one set of interrogatories because of the 

15 combination of the cases and never got answers to 

16 the second set of -- third set of interrogatories 

17 because they -- the Complainant objected to the 

18 number. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

20 MR. FELDMAN: So there is prejudice 

21 there in our ability to properly prepare for the 

22 case. 

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1 There is no reason that this could not 

2 have been done sooner than today catching me by 

3 surprise that it was done. You know, I was aware 

4 of this issue but I wasn't going to raise it at 

5 this point. However, it's jurisdictional and 

6 jurisdiction can be raised at any time during the 

7 proceeding. I would raise it now since the 

8 administrator has brought it up but the rule 

9 applies that if the amount exceeds the 

10 jurisdictional limit of the court, which it's 

11 done, the case is void ab initio which means it's 

12 not here. So there' s nothing to combine and 

13 amend under the case law and the rule as to when 

14 the case becomes void. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, let me 

16 interrupt you momentarily. So you're moving from 

17 the discussion about why you are opposed to 

18 Complainant actually bringing up your issue for 

19 why the case shouldn't be happening based on its 

20 being under one complaint in the first place, 

21 sir? Is that -- am I correct? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. FELDMAN: Yeah, it's a two-sided 

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1 issue. It's one 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: I just want to be 

3 following along with what you're saying. 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Yeah. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: So and what's the rule 

6 you're citing to for the fact that it would --

7 the case would be void? Do you have regulation 

8 for me, or that citation? 

9 MR. FELDMAN: I don't. It's case law 

10 and I don't have it handy. I have it in my notes 

11 but it would take a while to find it. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well, I'm loath 

13 to make a ruling on this very, I think, important 

14 issue with any sort of issue for timing and I 

15 don't think it's going to ultimately -- I think 

16 we need to have a hearing regardless while we're 

17 here to have it and then go forward collecting 

18 evidence. And then if I decide that, hey, this 

19 is going to go ahead and be taken out for a 

20 procedural issue I'll deal with it then. But 

21 while we have the witnesses here we should take 

22 care of it and have the witnesses in hearing. 

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1 So we're going to proceed as if we 

2 have one complaint at the moment and I'm going to 

3 look at the issue of the amended complaint 

4 whereas you needed to file it timely under your -

5 - before the hearing but less than 15 days before 

6 and it requires good cause for it to be allowed 

7 at all. And so I'll take up Mr. Feldman's 

8 objection to that in deciding that. 

9 Mr. Feldman, on the issue regarding 

10 the jurisdiction, if you could find the citation 

11 in the case law in the intervening time while we 

12 have the hearing and bring it up again, that 

13 would be helpful for me in trying to parse 

14 whether that matters. So in part, while we had a 

15 motion filing some time ago was to hopefully get 

16 rid of this issue so we wouldn't be here today if 

17 that was going to stop the hearing from going 

18 forward. Unfortunately it's coming up now for 

19 the first time and I don't want us to waste the 

20 witnesses's time while they're here and dwell on 

21 this issue if we can deal with that. 

22 So I understand that both the issues 

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1 have been raised, I'll take them under advisement 

2 and move on from there. 

3 Anything else to discuss before we go 

4 ahead and take evidence at this time? Mr. 

5 Bobertz? 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: Just a couple of 

7 citations regarding late amendments. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Administrator vs. 

10 Rogers, 2 NTSB 428 and Administrator vs. Baer, B11 a-e-r, NTSB Order Number EA-4619 at Note 5. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Nothing from the 

13 FAA context, sir? 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: I will look for that. 

15 And my apologize to the Court and Mr. Feldman. 

16 It's something I just thought late last night and 

17 my apologies. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: It's okay. I 

19 understand. 

20 Anything else you want to take up 

21 before we move on? Mr. Bobertz, anything else 

22 before we have opening statements? 

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And Mr. Feldman, 

3 anything you wish to say before opening 

4 statements? I know you mentioned in our 

5 prehearing conference you were considering asking 

6 the exclusion of witnesses? 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your Honor, I'm 

8 invoking the rule at this time. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Bobertz, any 

10 response to Mr. Feldman's evoking of the Rule of 

11 Sequestration of the witnesses? 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And both parties 

14 actually have a representative present in the 

15 room. I presume from the fact that you have your 

16 expert at your table you would like your experts 

17 to remain 

18 Bobertz? 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(202} 234-4433 

for testimony, is that correct, Mr. 

MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: And Mr. 

MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

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Feldman? 

Honor. 

All of the 

(202) 234-4433 
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1 witnesses will be excluded which means that they 

2 should be put into a room that we have 

3 established on the third floor of this building 

4 for that. So do you guys want to escort them up 

5 to that room? 

6 FEMALE: I'll escort them, Your Honor. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: My assistant will show 

8 them where it is. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: That's wonderful. I 

10 appreciate her doing that. Thank you, sir. 

11 And Mr. Feldman, if you want to have 

12 -- Mr. Bobertz, if you want to have your first 

13 witness have -- be somewhere waiting around close 

14 by so we won't have to wait a long time for them, 

15 that would be helpful. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, okay. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: May I have one moment, 

19 Your Honor? 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, you may. We'll go 

21 ahead and go off the record. 

22 (Off the record.) 

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, just real 

2 briefly. The Administrator intends to call three 

3 witnesses today. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Inspector Kyle Bartler 

6 who investigated the -- was the investigator on 

7 the first case, the December Bth and January 5th. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: And Mr. Ed Santa Elena 

10 who was the FAA inspector on the second case, the 

11 March 23rd and March 25th or March 22nd and 25th 

12 incidents. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: So Mr. Bartler, if you 

15 could take the stand and 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, we're going to do 

17 opening statements before we have a witness take 

18 up -- come in. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: All right. I thought 

20 Mr. Feldman had waived. 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: We haven't gotten that 

22 far, counsel. 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: No, we haven't gotten 

2 there yet. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: So what I'd like to do 

4 is have the witnesses who are going to testify 

5 so is Mr. McCowan your third witness then? 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry? 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. McCowan is going to 

8 be your third witness? You said you have three 

9 witnesses. 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: He ' s my expert and --

11 I'm sorry, I can't count. Four. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: That's okay. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: And Mr. McCowan is my 

14 fourth. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So Mr. Bartler 

16 will be your first witness, he can wait outside 

17 just momentarily while we do opening statements. 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Santa Elena can go 

20 upstairs to the room. And Mr. Hinshaw who is 

21 your other witness, I imagine, can also wait in 

22 the witness room. 

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1-24 

1 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, they're outside. 

2 So the only two witnesses-- I've got Mr. McCowan 

3 who is my expert and then Inspector Santa Elena 

4 and Inspector Bartler are here. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So Inspector 

6 Santa Elena can go to the witness room and 

7 Inspector Bartler, he can wait outside in the 

8 hallway and we'll get to him as soon as we have 

9 opening statements over. Okay? 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 

11 (Indistinct comments.) 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: I assume that it's okay 

13 that they're just -- even the other ones who are 

14 going to be quick are out here in the hall? 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: That's fine. That's 

16 fine. Yes, sir. 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: okay. 

18 (Indistinct comments.) 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Thank you. 

20 So with that -- and Mr. Feldman, all 

21 your witnesses are gone except for your expert? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. FELDMAN: Yes, my witnesses are 

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1 gone. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And so let's go 

3 ahead then. Mr. Bobertz 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Except for my expert, of 

5 course. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. 

7 Mr. Bobertz, do you wish to make an 

8 opening statement at this time? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Briefly, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Go ahead. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, the 

12 Administrator's case will show through the 

13 testimony of two inspectors who inspected -- who 

14 investigated the alleged violations in this case 

15 that Pacific International Skydiving violated the 

16 regulations regarding dropping skydivers in 

17 clouds on four different days on several flights 

18 on those days. Inspector Bartler will testify 

19 regarding his investigation on December 2013 and 

20 January 2014 and Inspector Santa Elena will 

21 testify regarding his investigation of the March 

22 2014 violations. 

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1 And then the violations will be -- the 

2 Administrator will call T.K. Hinshaw. And T.K. 

3 Hinshaw took videos of the violations and was an 

4 eye witness to the violations. And we' 11 show 

5 the videos that he took as well as have his 

6 testimony regarding the violations he saw. 

7 And then finally, we did receive some, 

8 we call them GoPro videos. Videos turned over 

9 respond to a subpoena to the Respondent that also 

10 shows additional or the same violations and 

11 corroborates the evidence of the --Mr. Hinshaw's 

12 videos in that regard. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: And Mr. Feldman, do you 

16 wish to make an opening statement? 

17 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your Honor, I'll 

18 make it at this time. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

20 MR. FELDMAN: Besides the issue of the 

21 amount exceeding the jurisdiction of this Court 

22 which we preserve hereby for later --

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: It's so preserved. 

2 MR. FELDMAN: revisiting, there's 

3 an issue of whether or not the business is a 

4 small business concern and the counsel for the 

5 Administrator has stipulated that it is deemed to 

6 be a small business concern. And this is related 

7 not only just to sanction but to the inspector's 

8 failure to follow the investigative procedures in 

9 2150.3(b). We're going to address that, that the 

10 investigation was conducted outside of the 

11 guidance and was therefore an improper 

12 investigation. 

13 The -- there's an issue as the status 

14 of the people involved in this case for Pacific 

15 Skydiving. And Your Honor, just to as a 

16 preface, I may refer to them as Pacific Skydiving 

17 and I may refer to them as PISC, P-I-S-C, which 

18 is Pacific International Skydiving but it's the 

19 same entity. 

20 

21 

22 people, 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. 

MR. FELDMAN: The status of these 

whether they were 

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employees or 

(202) 234-4433 
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1 independent contractors is significant as we'll 

2 bring out later in our case. 

3 The issue of under what sections of 

4 the FARs Pacific Skydiving operated is going to 

5 be shown by the evidence to show that it was Part 

6 91 not Part 135, not Part 121. The rules are 

7 very different for Part 91 than they are for Part 

8 135. There are no operational specifications, 

9 for instance, and the requirements of an ability 

10 to delegate duty to contractors is quite 

11 different and there's case law on that. 

12 The pilot's -- the responsibility of 

13 the parties, of the workers, the contractors as 

14 we will show, who participated on behalf of 

15 Pacific Skydiving in these alleged parachuting 

16 operations, the responsibilities are clearly set 

17 out in the advisory circular and in the FARs. 

18 And this will show that there's no responsibility 

19 of Pacific Skydiving for what occurred in that 

20 aircraft. To my knowledge, I've never run across 

21 a case where there's been a civil penalty against 

22 a skydiving operator, especially for jumps into 

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1 or through clouds. The case law is replete with 

2 cases against the pilot, civil penalties against 

3 jumpers but nothing against the business that's 

4 involved in the operations. 

5 We will show that the evidence is 

6 flawed. The Administrator is relying on videos 

7 which are questionable at best, first as to 

8 motivation. We believe that there -- they may 

9 even be fabricated. They may not be admissible 

10 in this case and we'll show that --why they may 

11 not be and why we believe they're not admissible. 

12 There's been unquestionable bias and 

13 our witnesses will testify to that, of the person 

14 who shot the videos, Mr. Frank T. K. Hinshaw. 

15 He's exhibited behavior which is frightening to 

16 my witnesses necessitating that I subpoena my 

17 witnesses instead of having them voluntarily come 

18 to court because some of them, because of this 

19 egregious behavior which we will show in our 

20 evidence, is life threatening. 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. 

MR. FELDMAN: It's 

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an opening 

(202) 234-4433 
1-30 

1 statement. 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: I know. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: What's the objection, 

4 Mr. Bobertz? 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Talking about evidence 

6 that we're -- that's not in the record. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well, there is 

8 no evidence in the record yet so, I understand, 

9 sir. 

10 MR. FELDMAN: No evidence is in the 

11 record, Your Honor. We intend to introduce it. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: I'll take the 

13 characterization for what it's worth, Mr. -- it's 

14 only his -- he's just proffering what he's going 

15 to put forward, counsel. 

16 MR. FELDMAN: And actually it is 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: It's overruled. 

18 MR. FELDMAN: because we've 

19 stipulated to a letter which contains that 

20 evidence. 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. I don't want 

22 to go into this. You can go forward with your 

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1 opening statement, the objection is overruled. 

2 MR. FELDMAN: We can show that the 

3 person submitting this is motivated and we 

4 believe the evidence will show that the 

5 motivation of the person submitting the video is 

6 not safety, that it's a motivation to shut down 

7 the competition and create a monopoly for that 

8 business at Dillingham Airfield where this 

9 where these alleged incidents took place. 

10 We can also show that there was 

11 prejudice against the Respondent by the failure 

12 to issue the Ombudsman Letter and we will develop 

13 that by evidence. 

14 And then there's the question of 

15 whether or not their expert's even qualified 

16 today. And we believe that testimony will show 

17 that, though their expert is a qualified skydiver 

18 and I've known him for years, the skydiving 

19 business is very small, I know both of the 

20 Hinshaws. And but that has no relation to 

21 what we're here today for. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

And our expert will show why this 

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1 evidence that will be proffered by the 

2 Administrator is unreliable and some of it is 

3 absolutely false. There's no evidence that will 

4 be brought into this case by the Administrator 

5 which shows any cloud penetration into or through 

6 a cloud by any skydiver of Pacific International 

7 Skydiving or that the pilot permitted such 

8 actions. 

9 We'll also show that there was a 

10 cooperative attitude by the personnel of Pacific 

11 Skydiving when approached with the investigation. 

12 They didn't hide anything, they provided 

13 everything requested for and they have a history 

14 of -- a violation-free history in terms of jumps 

15 into or through clouds. 

16 Finally, we'll -- there's an issue of 

17 who conducted the operations. And we will show 

18 that the operations were though Pacific 

19 Skydiving is a center, the operations of actually 

20 dropping the skydivers and conducting the 

21 parachute jumping operations were conducted by 

22 the pilot and by the individual jumpers involved. 

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1 And I believe the evidence will show that there 

2 have already been sanctions against the pilots 

3 and possibly at least one of the jumpers, I'm not 

4 certain. 

5 The evidence will show that the 

6 allegations against Pacific Skydiving are not 

7 supported by fact, are not supported by law, with 

8 any reliable probative or substantial evidence 

9 that would support the Administrative case. We 

10 will show that they have -- at the conclusion of 

11 their case that they have not been able to prove 

12 by a preponderance of the evidence that any FARs 

13 were violated by Pacific Skydiving. And based on 

14 these facts we believe that this case will be 

15 right for dismissal at the end of the 

16 Administrator's case and but we're ready to go 

17 forward with bringing out additional facts if 

18 necessary to show why there, in fact, is no case. 

19 Thank you, Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD : And Mr. Feldman, just 

21 procedurally, so you understand, why -- because 

22 the way that it's worked with the Administrator 

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1 having review of my decision, what I find best is 

2 develop the record fully because in case he has 

3 to do something I want them to have more facts 

4 rather than sending it back for us to come back 

5 around. So while your motion, which I will allow 

6 you to make and we wi 11 take up at the time, I 

7 will likely take it under advisement and ask you 

8 to call your witnesses so we can get facts in the 

9 record just so we can have that taken care of in 

10 case such time that Administrator, if I were to 

11 rule in your favor, were to change my opinion and 

12 then we'd come back again and do this again. I'd 

13 rather not have the witnesses go through that. 

14 Understand? 

15 MR. FELDMAN: I understand, Your 

16 Honor. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

18 MR. FELDMAN: But I would submit that 

19 that decision should probably be based on an 

20 assessment of whether or not there's anything in 

21 the record that would support the Administrator's 

22 case at the conclusion of their case. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: No, I'm not preruling 

2 here. 

3 MR. FELDMAN: Whatever Your Honor 

4 decides, obviously, we will agree with. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: No, and I and 

6 listen, sir, and I'm not preruling and I 

7 certainly think if there's no evidence by the 

8 Administrator we can certainly discuss this at --

9 really at length. 

10 What I'm saying is, just for you 

11 preparing your witnesses, I think it's likely 

12 even if your motion has a lot of merit to it that 

13 we'll still proceed with this testimony just 

14 because of the fact that fully developing the 

15 record to impart my mandate from the 

16 Administrator to make sure that the case doesn't 

17 need to be remanded and have everyone come back 

18 around and do this again. So just so everyone's 

19 aware of the likely playing field here. 

20 

21 sir? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

So okay, anything else in opening, 

MR. FELDMAN: Not at this time, Your 

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1 Honor. Thank you. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz, go ahead 

3 with your first witness then. 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

5 The Administrator calls Aviation 

6 Safety Inspector Kyle Bartler. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. If you can go 

8 out in the hallway and get him? 

9 (Brief pause.) 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Sir, if you can go 

11 ahead and stand by the witness stand and raise 

12 your right hand? 

13 Whereupon, 

14 KYLE BARTLER 

15 Was called as a witness herein and, having been 

16 first duly sworn, was examined and testified as 

17 follows: 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. You can go ahead 

19 and sit down. 

20 Mr. Bobertz, your witness. 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

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1-37 

1 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

2 Q Inspector Bartler, can you please 

3 spell your name for the record? 

4 A Yeah. Kyle, K-y-1-e, last name 

5 Bartler, B-a-r-t-1-e-r. 

6 Q And where are you currently employed? 

7 A I'm currently employed at the Honolulu 

8 Flight Standards District Office. 

9 Q And what is your position there? 

10 A I'm a Principal Operations Inspector. 

11 Q What does that mean? 

12 A A lot of things. I have oversight of 

13 various 135 companies, I handle complaints, I 

14 handle accident investigation, I handle pilot 

15 deviations. 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: When you say 135 

17 companies you mean Part 135 of the CFR? 

18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Just to be 

20 clear. Thank you. 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: Sorry. 

A lot of job duties but basic 

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1 oversight of general litigation to sum it up. 

2 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

3 Q And how long have you been doing that? 

4 A Six and a half years. 

5 Q Any flight experience? 

6 A Yeah. I'm an airline transport pilot, 

7 certified flight instructor, multi-engine, 

8 single-engine, instrument, a couple different 

9 type ratings and I've been flying since 1999. 

10 Q So is there as a principal of 

11 operations inspector for the FAA how did you come 

12 to be involved in this case against Pacific? 

13 A We received a complaint from T.K. 

14 Hinshaw, it was assigned to me by my frontline 

15 manager. Originally he had sent us a YouTube 

16 link of the violation. I reviewed the YouTube 

17 link and determined that there was sufficient 

18 enough evidence to pursue enforcement. So from 

19 there I launched an investigation. Went down to 

20 Dillingham Airfield, went to Pacific or 

21 Skydive Hawaii to speak to the Complainant. 

22 There I received a hard copy of the video on a 

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1-39 

1 thumb drive. From that video I took that back to 

2 office, reviewed it with the YouTube link and 

3 confirmed it was the same footage. 

4 From there I submitted a letter of 

5 investigation to the company. I received flight 

6 manifests from the company, the company being 

7 Pacific Skydive Center. Reviewed those flight 

8 manifests and determined the pilot in command to 

9 be Jerry Richards. I then issued Jerry Richards 

10 a letter of investigation along with the Pilot 

11 Bill of Rights and I began to start the EIR, 

12 enforcement investigative report. 

13 Q Thank you, Inspector Bartler. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, can you turn 

15 on the screen for me, please? 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: I can. 

17 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

18 Q So Inspector Bartler, you should have 

19 in front of you what's marked and has been 

20 admitted as Administrator's Exhibit A-9. When 

21 you mentioned you got the -- I think in-flight 

22 worksheet or the flight record from Pacific, is 

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1-40 

1 that the one? 

2 A Yeah, that's the one. 

3 Q Thank you. 

4 Did you receive any other 

5 documentation from T. K. as far as discussions 

6 with him? 

7 A On? 

8 Q Say on the December -- December 5th 

9 flight I'm sorry, December 8th, 2013 flight. 

10 Did you get a declaration from him? 

11 A Oh, yeah. He also submitted a 

12 declaration that stated he shot the video 

13 there it is. 

14 (The heretofore referred to 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 Q 

20 document? 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

document was marked for 

identification as 

Administrator Exhibit Number 

6 . ) 

Oh. So do you recognize that 

Yes. 

And what is it? 

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1 A That's the declaration from T.K. 

2 Hinshaw that basically certifies -- I don't know 

3 if that's the word-- says that he shot the video 

4 and it's unedited and a true copy. 

5 Q Okay. He gave that to you, emailed it 

6 or 

7 A He actually hand delivered that to the 

8 FSDO. 

9 Q Okay. 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I move that 

11 Administrator's Exhibit A-6 be admitted into 

12 evidence. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD : Mr. Feldman, any 

14 objection to the admission of A-6? 

15 MR. FELDMAN: No objection to the 

16 written statement however we do object to the 

17 truth of its contents. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So you're 

19 allowing me to admit it, you're just going to 

20 question its contents. Are you going to cross21 examine on that, sir? 

22 MR. FELDMAN: Absolutely. 

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:I 1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

1-42 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well, I'll go 

ahead and admit it, sir. Thank you. 

(The document marked for 

identification as 

Administrator Exhibit Number 

6 was received into 

evidence.) 

BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

Q And did you receive similar 

documentation for the January flight, January 

8th, 2014? 

A Yes. The January 8th flight in 

question was pretty much handled the exact same 

way. We received the complaint. I viewed the 

footage, determined there was sufficient evidence 

to pursue an enforcement. Collected the 

manifest, sent out the letters of investigation, 

Pilot Bill of Rights and started the enforcement 

investigative report. 

Q And when you say you collected the 

manifest, is that Exhibit A-ll in front of you? 

A Yes, it is. 

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1 Q And I'm now showing you what's been 

2 marked for identification purposes as 

3 Administrator's Exhibit A-8. 

4 (The heretofore referred to 

5 document was marked for 

6 identification as 

7 Administrator Exhibit Number 

8 A- 8.) 

9 Q Do you recognize that document? 

10 A Yes, I do. 

11 Q And what is it? 

12 A That's the second written declaration 

13 from T.K. Hinshaw discussing the flight on 

14 January 5th, 2014. 

15 Q And did he also hand deliver that to 

16 you or --

17 A Yeah, this was also hand delivered to 

18 the FSDO. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I move that 

20 Complainant's Exhibit A-8 be moved into evidence. 

21 

22 objection? 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD : Mr. 

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Feldman, any 

(202) 234-4433 
1-44 

1 MR. FELDMAN: No objection to 

2 admitting the document however we do object to 

3 the contents of it and we believe the evidence 

4 will show that a lot of these content in all of 

5 these written statements by Frank Thomas Kyle 

6 Hinshaw are false. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

8 MR. FELDMAN: And we will show that. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: And so that goes to 

10 weight rather than admissibility as far as 

11 whether the document is authentic at this point. 

12 So I '11 go ahead and admit the document as A-8 

13 and I will, of course, consider the credibility 

14 of the document based upon your cross15 examination, sir. Thank you. 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

(The document marked for 

identification as 

Administrator Exhibit Number 

A-8 was received 

evidence.) 

JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz. 

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into 

(202) 234-4433 
1-45 

1 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Inspector 

2 Bartler. 

3 Your Honor, no further questions. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman, 

5 questions for Mr. Bartler. 

6 CROSS EXAMINATION 

7 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

8 Q Mr. Bartler, we've met before. I'm 

9 Robert Feldman, I represent the Respondent in 

10 this case. 

11 In response to the complaint filed by 

12 Mr. Hinshaw in this case, and with the 

13 accompanying document, what did you do with 

14 respect to an investigation. 

15 Q I filed the order, 2150-3(b) which--

16 I'll say it again. 

17 When we got the complaint in the 

18 office, frontline manager assigns the work. I 

19 was assigned the work, I reviewed the complaint. 

20 First thing I do when I review a complaint is I 

21 make sure there is substantial evidence to pursue 

22 an investigation. I found that there was so I 

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1 pursued the investigation. In doing that 

2 basically collecting the flight manifest to see 

3 who the pilot was. 

4 From that the pilot was issued a 

5 letter of investigation and a Pilot Bill of 

6 Rights. There was a case created for the pilot 

7 which I believe we handled in an informal. And 

8 then there was a case created to the company. 

9 Q Okay. And you prepared an enforcement 

10 investigation report or EIR? 

11 A EIR for each. 

12 Q Okay. 

13 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, the EIR has 

14 been stipulated to be admitted in this case and 

15 that would be --

16 JUDGE RAWALD: R-17? 

17 MR. FELDMAN: -- R-17. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. 

19 MR. FELDMAN: Let me put that up on 

20 the screen. 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Let me go ahead 

22 and put it on your video, sir. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 (Brief pause.) 

2 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

3 Q I show you what's been admitted as 

4 Respondent's Exhibit 17 and ask if this is the 

5 report you prepared. 

6 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, may I show 

7 him a written copy of it? Perhaps that would be 

8 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: That's fine. Yes, sir. 

10 It is 33 pages and I don't think it's possible 

11 for him to scroll through it from the video 

12 monitor there in front of him. 

13 (Brief pause.) 

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. This is my 

15 enforcement investigative report. 

16 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

17 Q Thank you. 

18 And in this report, did you write the 

19 statement of the case? 

20 A Yes, I did. 

21 Q Okay. If we can take the video feed 

22 down at this point. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

2 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

3 Q At some point, at any point prior to 

4 sending in your investigation when you sent 

5 the LOI either before or after that, did you send 

6 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: I'm sorry. You used an 

8 acronym just there. What was that? 

9 MR. FELDMAN: I'm sorry? 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: You used an acronym 

11 there. You said LAI? 

12 MR. FELDMAN: LOI, letter of 

13 investigation. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: Thank you, sir. 

15 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

16 Q What is Mr. Bartler, what is a 

17 letter of investigation? 

18 A A letter of investigation is sent to 

19 the violator, whether it be a civil or a 

20 certificate action, a pilot or a company, which 

21 basically informs the possible violation had 

22 occurred and the word "possible" is used in every 

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1 letter of investigation that I've ever written. 

2 But basically just informs the possible violator 

3 that we are investigating a -- whether it be a 

4 complaint, a pilot deviation or an accident, 

5 whatever the nature may be of the violation. 

6 That there may be a possible violation with the 

7 14 CFRs and we are investigating it. It just 

8 gives them notification that they're under 

9 investigation. 

10 Q And is there any require -- did you 

11 determine whether or not prior to sending the 

12 letter of investigation whether or not Pacific 

13 Skydiving was a small business entity? 

14 A Before sending the letter of 

15 investigation? No, I did not. 

16 Q At what point did you determine that? 

17 A I don't know or recall that I actually 

18 did. A 2150 does state something about a small 

19 business concern. We've never really, in my 

20 office that I can recall, any cases that I've 

21 worked ever really used that, looked into that. 

22 I know it same something about a form on there, I 

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1 don't know where that form is located. 

2 All the cases I've ever done have 

3 seemed to be small business because I believe 

4 it's 50 or less employees. I've never dealt with 

5 a company larger. 

6 Q Is there any place on the enforcement 

7 investigation report where it references small 

8 business? 

9 A Negative. No. 

10 Q So is it your testimony that no one in 

11 the office made an investigation as to whether or 

12 not they were a small business? 

13 A I don't know that I can answer that a 

14 yes or a no, in one direction or another, because 

15 the term was tossed around. 

16 Q By whom? 

17 A I believe we discussed it with the 

18 frontline managers. But I -- as far as a full-on 

19 investigation , I'd say no. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: And just so I'm clear, 

21 it was tossed around in the context of this case 

22 or just tossed around generally? 

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1 THE WITNESS: Well, this case spawned 

2 the conversation. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Of the small business 

4 concern? 

5 THE WITNESS: Right. Because we've 

6 never really dealt with it before. It's not 

7 something that we generally look into. 

8 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

9 Q At what point was it discussed in the 

10 investigation process? 

11 A After the letter of investigation was 

12 issued. 

13 Q And who was the frontline manager? 

14 A Curtis Waley. 

15 Q And do you know whether or not a 

16 letter termed in the are you familiar, in 

17 2150.3(b) of the addressing of the issues of 

18 small business entities and requirements when you 

19 perform an investigation of a small business 

20 entity? 

21 A I'm familiar that it's in there, it's 

22 a paragraph or two. I've looked it over but like 

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1 I've said, we've never and I've never actually 

2 addressed it in any of the enforcements that I've 

3 done. 

4 Q So is it correct to say that you never 

5 sent what's referred to in 2150.3(b) as an 

6 Ombudsman letter to the Respondent with respect 

7 to this investigation? 

8 A That's correct. 

9 Q You did not send it? 

10 A I did not send an Ombudsman 

11 whatever it's called. 

12 Q Did anyone send it, to your knowledge? 

13 A Not to my knowledge. 

14 Q Now is during your investigation 

15 did you determine whether or not Pacific 

16 International Skydiving operated under Part 91 

17 Rules of the FARs or Part 135 of the Federal 

18 Aviation Regulations? 

19 A Yes, I did. They don't hold a 135 

20 certificate so it would have to be Part 91. 

21 Q They don't have any operation 

22 specifications as to what they can and can't do? 

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1 A No, they're not issued any off specs. 

2 It's just Part 91 regulations. 

3 Q And under those regulations what does 

4 the term operational control mean? 

5 A Operational control basically means a 

6 said person in the company who directs all flight 

7 activities. I'm trying to put this in a 91 world 

8 because it's really a-- more of a 135 term. But 

9 basically it's the person in the company who 

10 assigns, authorizes, initiates and terminates 

11 flights. 

12 Q And that doesn't exist in Part 91, 

13 does it? There's no -- there's no dispatcher, is 

14 there? 

15 A No, there's not an actual position for 

16 dispatcher or director of ops. The management 

17 positions that are required with 135. 

18 Q So wouldn't operational control under 

19 Part 91 be the pilot? 

20 A Operational control is always with the 

21 pilot in one way or another. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

And if there's no one in the company 

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1 that has operational control who decides when an 

2 aircraft takes off under Part 91 then? The 

3 company or the pilot and command? 

4 A Well, I'd imagine the pilot is 

5 assigned a flight and then the pilot decides to 

6 fly it or not. 

7 Q So the pilot has operational control, 

8 correct? 

9 A At the moment of takeoff, yeah. 

10 Q Bear with me a minute. 

11 (Brief pause. ) 

12 Q I'll pull up the exact definition 

13 under the FARs. 

14 Where are the -- where are definitions 

15 contained in --

16 A Part 1. 

17 Q the Federal Aviation Regulations? 

18 Do you know? 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Objecition, Your Honor. 

20 This witness isn't being called as an expert for 

21 the FAA and Respondent's counsel is starting to 

22 ask opinion questions regarding this witness 

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1 which is prohibited under 49 CFR Part 9. 

2 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, I'm asking 

3 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Hold on one second. 

5 Okay. So right now you're saying that 

6 he's asking questions that aren't allowed based 

7 upon the fact that he's not an expert and Mr. 

8 Feldman is trying to use him as an expert for his 

9 own testimony? 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman, 

11 where are -- why are you asking these questions? 

12 MR. FELDMAN: Because he investigated 

13 -- Mr. Bartler investigated this incident and in 

14 his investigation part of in choosing to 

15 recommend civil penalty action against the 

16 operator, at some point he must have determined 

17 that the operator had operational control. And 

18 one of the issues in this case is who actually 

19 controlled the flight. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: So sir, are you 

21 questioning the credibility of the investigation 

22 by the questions you're asking? 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: I'm trying to find out 

2 how thorough and credible his investigation was 

3 and whether any errors were made which support 

4 this EIR as being baseless. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. I'm going to 

6 allow inquiry into the credibility of the 

7 investigation, sir. He's not using him to 

8 establish any fact that otherwise should be 

9 established by an expert. He's simply trying to 

10 show whether he followed the proper procedures, 

11 as far as I can tell, and whether he thoroughly 

12 investigated the case. So I'm going to allow the 

13 examination at the moment. 

14 And sir, if you -- you can raise the 

15 objection again but I'm going to overrule it. 

16 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

17 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

18 Q Mr. Bartler, operational control in 

19 the definition is with respect to a flight, it 

20 means the exercise of authority over initiating, 

21 conducting or terminating the flight. 

22 In 

(202) 234-4433 

your investigation 

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did you 

(202) 234-4433 
1-57 

1 determine who had the authority to initiate, 

2 conduct and terminate this flight? 

3 A Okay. So I didn't use the term 

4 operational control. I used the term person 

5 because this isn't a Part 135 issue. This is 

6 Part 91. And under Part 91 a person is defined 

7 as it could be an entity, it could be a company, 

8 it could be a pilot, it could be anything. So 

9 the word person is what I went off of when 

10 determining this civil side of the case. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: So Mr. Bartler, I guess 

12 the simple answer is you didn't look at the issue 

13 Mr. Feldman is asking you about? 

14 THE WITNESS: No. I didn't reference 

15 135 at all. The terms for Part 135 don't apply. 

16 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

17 Q Did you determine who had the final 

18 authority for the operation and safety of the 

19 flight? 

20 A The final authority --

21 Q And when I say flight I mean both --

22 the flights in issue in your investigation 

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1 report. 

2 A I didn't put that in words in my EIR, 

3 no. 

4 Q So did you determine who it was that 

5 was responsible for that airplane operating in a 

6 safe manner? 

7 A For which investigative report? There 

8 was two. One went for the pilot, one went for 

9 the company. 

10 Q The one-- okay, let's use the one for 

11 the pilot. Did you file an action, enforcement 

12 action against the pilot? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Okay. And was that because the pilot 

15 in command had responsibility and a final 

16 authority· for the operation and safety of the 

17 flight? 

18 A 

19 Q 

20 A 

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Yes. 

Do you know T.K. Hinshaw? 

Yes. 

Do you know him personally? 

No. 

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1 Q Did you -- are you a surfer? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Did you ever have occasion to be 

4 surfing near Dillingham Airport and observe 

5 operations of Skydive Hawaii? 

6 A From the water I couldn't tell you who 

7 was jumping. 

8 Q On the beach. 

9 A Yeah, I've seen obviously seen 

10 parachutes from the water, yeah. I wouldn't know 

11 which aircraft was letting them out from that --

12 from that perspective. 

13 Q Did you ever approach Skydive Hawaii 

14 because you observed their jumpers descending 

15 through clouds and have a discussion as to what 

16 you personally observed? 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, what's the 

19 relevance of this? 

20 MR. FELDMAN: The relevance of this, 

21 first it goes to the Ombudsman Letter and the 

22 ability of Mr. Hinshaw to -- excuse me, Mr. Benal 

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1 and his company to object if they felt there was 

2 an unfair investigation. 

3 Second, it goes to the thoroughness of 

4 the investigation of this incident and with 

5 respect to parachuting operations at Dillingham 

6 Airport. I think it's very relevant to what he 

7 observed and it goes to the issue of how these 

8 videos that have been submitted and motivation 

9 for them. Because if Mr. Bartler observed 

10 parachuting operations coming from Skydive Hawaii 

11 that were into or through clouds that supports 

12 that a finding that the motivation was hate 

13 and not safety. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: This is a pretty thin 

15 basis. I 'm going to allow it because it's 

16 apparently low. But this is a very thin basis on 

17 that. So I want to hear what you get to here and 

18 then we can -- Mr. Boberts, you can raise the 

19 objection again. I just want to hear how much 

20 further you're going. so let's go ahead and 

21 answer the question. Ask it again. You were 

22 discussing whether he 

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1 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

2 Q At some point did you observe jumpers 

3 from Skydive Hawaii jumping through clouds which 

4 resulted in you speaking to the personnel at 

5 Skydive Hawaii about what you observed? 

6 A Yes. I have back in, I believe it was 

7 2013 I ramp checked one of their pilots after I 

8 observed what appeared to be a violation of 

9 105.17. She was issued a letter of investigation 

10 and I believe it was closed with a warning 

11 letter. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: And sir, what is a ramp 

13 check? 

14 THE WITNESS: Ramp check is kind of 

15 like when you get pulled over by the police. 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And so were you 

17 out surfing at the time and then when--

18 THE WITNESS: No, if I'm off duty I'm 

19 not going to --

20 

21 

22 be used. 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, so this is not --

THE WITNESS: Anything off duty can't 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: So this is not related 

2 to the question that Mr. Feldman --

3 THE WITNESS: No, this was actually a 

4 year earlier than this case. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

6 THE WITNESS: Maybe even two. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: So you were operating 

8 in your professional capacity, observed skydivers 

9 which you thought were from that Skydive Hawaii 

10 plane, went and ramp checked this young lady and 

11 then initiated an investigation? 

12 THE WITNESS: They were from Skydive 

13 Hawaii because when I ramp checked the female 

14 pilot she presented me with her certificates. I 

15 looked at the origin of certificate of the 

16 aircraft registration and it's registered to 

17 Skydive Hawaii. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And any further 

19 questions, Mr. Feldman? 

2 0 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

21 Q Did you have any confrontation with 

22 any personnel at Skydive Hawaii during your 

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1 investigation of those jumps that you personally 

2 observed? 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, I'm going to let 

5 him go here because it goes to the credibility, 

6 if we have something from this. So I want to 

7 hear what he has to say. The objection is 

8 overruled for now. 

9 THE WITNESS: There was no 

10 confrontation at the time of that ramp inspection 

11 just with me and the pilot. 

12 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

13 Q How about at some time subsequent to 

14 that? Did you have any confrontation with their 

15 personnel that involved video taping operations? 

16 A Define confrontation. I mean, 

17 discussions I had discussions with both 

18 companies plenty of times. 

19 Q Didn't you videotape operations at 

20 Skydive Hawaii? 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Did I? 

Yeah. 

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1 A 2013 we did surveillance, the FAA, our 

2 office did surveillance of Dillingham and we 

3 videotaped both operations but no violations were 

4 discovered on either company from the videos that 

5 we shot. 

6 Q So neither Skydive in your 

7 surveillance you did not uncover any violations 

8 while you were actually conducting surveillance 

9 of either Skydive Hawaii or Pacific International 

10 Skydiving Center, correct? 

11 A The only violation I saw personally 

12 while doing surveillance at Dillingham was that 

13 2013, I think it was, with the female pilot I 

14 just discussed. 

15 Q Have you conducted subsequent 

16 surveillance of parachuting operations at 

17 Dillingham? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q And during those surveillance where 

20 you were actually onsite at Dillingham Airfield 

21 did you observe any violations of the FAR 

22 regarding jumping into or through a cloud, 

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1 prohibiting that? 

2 A Not since that one I just mentioned. 

3 Q And you observed -- Pacific Skydiving, 

4 you didn't notice them doing it? 

5 A I observed both companies and no 

6 violations were observed. The weather was 

7 usually good. 

8 Q So the only evidence is it true 

9 that the only evidence you have of alleged 

10 violations by Pacific Skydiving are the videos 

11 submitted by Mr. Hinshaw? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q Now did you discuss the alleged 

14 violations with any personnel at Pacific 

15 Skydiving? I'm talking about the violations that 

16 precipitated the investigation against Pacific 

17 that you received the videos from Mr. Hinshaw. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD : I'm sorry, sir, your 

19 question is confusing. 

20 MR. FELDMAN: That's kind of not --

21 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir, if you could 

22 rephrase it. 

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1 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

2 Q In the course of your investigation by 

3 of the incidents that was precipitated by the 

4 videos you received from Mr. Hinshaw did you 

5 speak with any personnel at Pacific Skydiving? 

6 A Yeah. Jerry Richards was interviewed 

7 for his violation. And there was also an 

8 informal conference held with Jerry Richards. 

9 Q Okay. Well, I don't want to know what 

10 happened at the informal conference because we 

11 had one, too. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Just to be clear --

13 THE WITNESS: But that's personnel. 

14 MR. FELDMAN: But I'm asking --

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Just so I'm clarified, 

16 that informal conference is in the context of the 

17 other EIR 

18 THE WITNESS: Right. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: -- not this one? 

20 THE WITNESS: Right. 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

22 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

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1 Q I'm asking, did you contact anybody to 

2 get further information at Pacific Skydiving? 

3 A Just the flight manifest. 

4 Q And who did you contact to get that? 

5 A I don't recall his name. It was too 

6 long ago. 

7 Q Did they give them to you willingly? 

A 

9 Q Did they object or tell you to get off 

10 the property or anything like that? 

11 A No. 

12 Q So they were compliant with you and 

13 helping you to fully investigate what you were 

14 investigating, is that a correct statement? 

15 A Yeah, that's correct. 

16 Q They provided you with whatever 

17 information you requested, correct? 

18 A Correct. 

19 Q And does to your knowledge does 

20 Pacific International Skydiving Center have any 

21 prior history of violations of jumping into or 

22 through a cloud? 

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1 A Off the top of my head, no, I'd have 

2 to check my database. 

3 Q Did you do that as part of your 

4 investigation? 

5 A Prior enforcement history was 

6 investigated and showed nothing in the past two 

7 years that was an actual enforcement. 

8 Q Are you a skydiver? 

9 A No. 

10 Q Did you consult anyone who was a 

11 skydiver in forming your opinion that jumps were 

12 conducted into or through a cloud by persons at 

13 Pacific Skydiving? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q Who was that? 

16 A Curtis Waley. 

17 Q Do you know if Mr. Waley is an expert 

18 in skydiving photography? 

19 A I don't know about photography but I 

20 know he has extensive experience in skydiving. 

21 Q But your case was 

22 photographic evidence, correct? 

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based on 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Did you consult anybody as to how 

3 accurate this photographic evidence 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

5 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

6 Q -- might or might not be? 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: No, it's relevant. 

8 He's trying to see what he looked at to see 

9 whether or not the evidence relied upon was at 

10 the center of the investigation so I'm going to 

11 allow it. Objection overruled. 

12 THE WITNESS: Right. So I asked 

13 Curtis Waley and he -- what his opinion was of 

14 the angle and the cloud cover. And you know, I 

15 wanted to do my research before I actually sent 

16 out a letter of investigation and start this 

17 entire process. And he agreed that it's pretty 

18 clear that there was a violation and I should 

19 pursue it. 

20 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

21 Q Did you at any time slow the video 

22 down from normal speed to look at it more 

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1 closely? 

2 A Yes. I paused it, played it, rewound 

3 it, I've looked at it numerous times. 

4 Q Did you ever look at it frame by 

5 frame? 

6 A I don't think I had the software to do 

7 that. No. 

8 Q So the answer's no? 

9 A Yeah. 

10 Q You stated in the EIR that the video 

11 you stated multiple times actually, in the 

12 paragraph that's regarding December 11th, 2013 

13 where he provided you with the video evidence for 

14 the operation occurring allegedly on December 

15 8th, you stated, the video was filmed directly 

16 under the drop zone. Now what do you mean 

17 directly under the drop zone? 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: And when you say "you 

19 stated" you mean in the EIR he wrote? 

20 MR. FELDMAN: In the EIR. 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: Is there a page you're 

22 referring to, sir? 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. It's page 1 of 

2 section B. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And this is 

4 Exhibit R-17 still? 

5 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: I can put that up if 

8 JUDGE RAWALD : No, that's fine. I 

9 just want to make sure I know what you're saying. 

10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I recall writing 

11 that. As again I 'm not a skydiver, the drop 

12 zone, to me, is located on the field where they 

13 land. That's what the FAA's authorized as a drop 

14 zone so yeah, it was filmed right there where 

15 they land. 

16 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

17 Q Directly under the -- is that where it 

18 says, directly under the drop zone. Does that 

19 mean directly under the skydivers at the time it 

20 was being filmed or under the air space over the 

21 airport? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Just the air space. 

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It ' s - - you ' d 

(202) 234-4433 
1-72 

1 have to be out in the ocean to get underneath --

2 or in the woods there, in the mountains to get 

3 underneath the actual where they were falling 

4 from. 

5 Q So your observation was that they were 

6 observing the -- they were videoing at an angle 

7 to where the skydivers allegedly went through the 

8 clouds? 

9 A Yeah, there was a slight angle. 

10 Q Okay. So it -- isn't it meaningless 

11 that it was filmed directly under the air space 

12 over the airport if the jumpers were located 

13 elsewhere? 

14 A Again, I define the drop zone as where 

15 they were landing. 

16 Q Where they were landing. But where 

17 did they go through allegedly into or through a 

18 cloud? 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: I think he's saying 

20 it's beyond the realm of knowledge, sir. He's 

21 simply saying that he documented where he got it 

22 but he doesn't have an answer about whether that 

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1 would be okay or not. 

2 I understand where you're going with 

3 the credibility of what he looked at it and your 

4 point is very clearly made. Asking him to say 

5 whether it's right or not however probably goes 

6 to an expert and he isn't the right person for 

7 that given what he's said so far. 

8 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

9 Q And the same -- the same would go for 

10 the second video where you say the video provided 

11 on January 8th for an operation that allegedly 

12 occurred on January 5th. You state the video 

13 shows -- was filmed directly under the drop zone. 

14 A Yeah, it's the same. 

15 Q And in both those instances, the first 

16 one December 8th and the second January 5th, you 

17 state that the video clearly shows jumpers free 

18 falling through an overcast layer of clouds. 

19 A Right. 

20 Q Are you stating that you could see in 

21 the video the jumpers in free fall? 

22 A 

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As they come through the cloud and 

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1 then the chutes open. Yeah, because I can't see 

2 above them because the cloud's blocking 

3 whatever's above them. 

4 Q So the cloud, you can't see what 

5 they're doing above the cloud? 

6 A I can't see through the cloud, no. 

7 Q So you don't know whether they fell 

8 through a cloud or not. Everything you observed 

9 was below the cloud, correct? They wouldn't have 

10 been visible above the cloud? 

11 A Well, I don't know how they would have 

12 got there otherwise. But yeah, it would have to 

13 be below the cloud. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: I think he sir, he's 

15 just want to make clear the words you have in 

16 your report --

17 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: -- because you're here 

19 to talk about that. So I think the question is, 

20 your observation with them was to seeing someone 

21 below the cloud layer who was in free fall at 

22 that time and apparently were dropped above the 

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1 cloud layer according to your assumption? 

2 THE WITNESS: Correct. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

4 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

5 Q But if there was a cloud layer, how 

6 did you observe the people in free fall above the 

7 cloud layer? 

8 A I couldn't observe above the cloud 

9 layer because the cloud layer's blocking that 

10 view. 

11 Q And so you observed them in free fall 

12 in the videos below the cloud layer and their 

13 parachutes opening in the videos, is that your 

14 statement? 

15 A From what it looked like, parachutes, 

16 some were opening, may have been in the cloud and 

17 some below because you can't see -- you can only 

18 see so far up into a cloud and then it's all gray 

19 above that. So some of them in video looked like 

20 they opened in the clouds, some opened after and 

21 some opened before and came and drifted through. 

22 So it's -- it depends. 

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1 Q And how was this video provided to 

2 you? 

3 A First it was put up on YouTube, that's 

4 where I initially viewed it. And then I wanted 

5 to get a hard copy of it so I went to Skydive 

6 Hawaii and they provided me with a hard copy 

7 direct from their computer. 

8 Q From their computer? 

9 A Yeah. 

10 Q So it wasn't from the it wasn't 

11 transferred from the camera to you, is that 

12 correct? 

13 A Well, the camera was hooked you 

14 have to hook the camera up to the computer to put 

15 it onto the disc. So he hooked his camera up to 

16 his computer and then burned it to a disc, 

17 transferred it. 

18 Q Was do you know if there was any 

19 intermediate step of -- do you know what kind of 

20 media the camera used to record the footage? 

21 A 

22 Q 

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I don't know. 

And if a layer of clouds is overcast 

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1 does that mean that's a solid cloud cover or can 

2 it be less than completely solid? 

3 A Overcast is defined as seven-eighths 

4 of the sky cover or greater. 

5 Q So there could be one-eighth that's 

6 clear, correct? 

7 A Technically, yeah. 

8 Q Did you notice any clear areas in the 

9 sky around these skydivers in the videos? 

10 A There were occasional scattered holes. 

11 The regulation states you have to have 2000 feet 

12 horizontal on each side of the jumper so that 

13 would be a 4000 foot hole. I didn't see any 4000 

14 feet holes. 

15 Q But that's not the regulation that is 

16 involved in this case, is it? 

17 A 105.17, right? 

18 Q No, this case involves whether or not 

19 the jumpers actually fell into or through a 

20 cloud. They did not charge the Respondent with -

21 

22 A 

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Okay. 

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1 Q -- cloud clearance. 

2 A Like I said, what I witnessed, some of 

3 them were above, some of them were in, some of 

4 them were below and there may have been one or 

5 two that found that small hole as well. It was a 

6 scattered it was like eight jumpers, ten 

7 jumpers that came out of the aircraft. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Sir, I understand the 

9 location of his observation of the videotape. If 

10 you have more questions you can ask them but I 

11 think the point has been made clear. He's not an 

12 expert on this issue. 

13 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

14 Q Were there -- did you observe multiple 

15 layers of clouds in these videos? 

16 A it was a cumulo-stratus layer that was 

17 there. There may have been some cirrus above 

18 that but cirrus clouds generally are 20,000 and 

19 above if not even 4 0 , 0 0 0 . And these jumpers 

20 aren't coming out that high. So I was mainly 

21 focused on the cumulo-stratus. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

And what was the altitude of the cloud 

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1 base, if you know? 

2 A It would be an estimation. Probably 

3 around no lower than 3000, no greater than 6000 

4 I'd say. 

5 Q So that's a big range between 3000 and 

6 6000. 

7 A Looking at it, you know, I'm not there 

8 in person to --

9 Q So you weren't able to determine that 

10 from the videos? 

11 A That's 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Again, he's 

13 going into areas of testimony that this person 

14 isn't proffered for. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Yeah, he gave his best 

16 estimate based upon his lay ability. I 

17 understand. The objection is sustained. 

18 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

19 Q Okay. You state in here that at 13:34 

20 a Cessna 208, registration 248-Papa-Alpha 

21 announced a cancellation of their jump. Was that 

22 a Skydive Hawaii aircraft? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Who announced the cancellation of the 

3 jump? 

4 A The pilot in command who -- I don't 

5 know who that was at the time. 

6 Q So the pilot in command was the who 

7 made the announcement and made the decision to 

8 terminate the jump, is that correct? 

9 A Yeah. 

10 Q And did you receive a response to your 

11 letter of investigation from Pacific 

12 International? 

13 A I don't recall. 

14 Q Your report says you did. 

15 A Yeah, I guess I did. 

16 Q So Pacific International didn't ignore 

17 your 

18 A Right. 

19 Q -- letter of investigation, correct? 

20 Were you aware at the time of your 

21 investigation of any animosity between Skydive 

22 Hawaii and Pacific Skydiving? 

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1 A Directly I was aware of the animosity 

2 of the entire culture of that airport. I mean, 

3 from one end to the other there's animosity 

4 between every group there. So I 'm sure there 

5 was, yeah. To the extent, I don't know what 

6 extent you want me to go to here. There's always 

7 animosity at Dillingham between everybody there. 

8 Q So your statement is there was 

9 animosity between the two jump operations, 

10 Skydive Hawaii and 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Pacific International Skydiving, 

13 correct? 

14 A Correct. 

15 Q Now you also signed an inspector's 

16 statement in your enforcement investigation 

17 report. And in that it says that the jumpers can 

18 clearly be seen free falling through clouds on 

19 December 8th. Is that -- you clearly saw them 

20 free falling through clouds, is that a true 

21 statement? 

22 

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JUDGE RAWALD: And just for clarity, 

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1 that ' s R- 1 7 . What page are you referring to 

2 again? 

3 MR. FELDMAN: That is his statement 

4 labeled inspector's statement and it follows the 

5 item of proof page. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: May I approach the 

8 witness? 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: You may. 

10 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

11 Q I show you a statement and ask if you 

12 recognize that. 

13 A Yes, that's my statement. 

14 Q And your statement that jumpers can 

15 clearly be seen free falling through clouds is 

16 true and correct? 

17 A Correct. 

18 MR. FELDMAN: I have nothing further. 

19 Thank you, Mr. Bartler. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And you 

21 redirect, Mr. Bobertz? 

22 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor, nothing 

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1 on redirect. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. I do have a 

3 couple questions myself based upon my decision, I 

4 want to clarify something. 

5 You mentioned the pilot was handled 

6 informally. What does that mean, sir? 

7 THE WITNESS: An informal, there's 

8 about three different ways we can handle 

9 enforcement. The lowest being informal where we 

10 try to counsel them and discuss over the phone or 

11 even in person. Sometimes with their attorney 

12 and ours and sometimes just inspector to pilot --

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

14 THE WITNESS: to try to come up 

15 with an understanding as to what occurred and if 

16 it was inadvertent, if it was -- you know, or 

17 not, or purposeful. 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, 

19 clarification please? 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes. 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm not sure to which 

22 pilot case you're referring. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: He was mentioning that 

2 there were two investigative reports regarding 

3 Mr. -- the pilot in the first instance and it was 

4 handled informal, is the term he used. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. I think Mr. 

6 Inspector Bartler might have been referring to a 

7 different pilot case regarding Pacific or 

8 Skydive Hawaii case that Mr. Feldman was asking 

9 about. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: No, no, he said he got 

11 a warning on this for the female pilot in the 

12 Skydive Hawaii case. But in the case, the 

13 companion case of the Pacific International 

14 Skydiving case he simply said that the pilot was 

15 given an informal result. And so I wanted to 

16 know what that meant. 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. 

18 THE WITNESS: Well, it's an informal 

19 conference. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

21 THE WITNESS: It's to avoid doing this 

22 and tying up the court system. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

2 THE WITNESS: And that pilot agreed to 

3 a suspension --

4 JUDGE RAWALD: So when you say it was 

5 an informal --

6 THE WITNESS: -- a lesser suspension 

7 than what we were going to 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: So when you said the 

9 pilot was treated informally, you had an informal 

10 conference? 

11 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's right. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. That's what I 

13 wanted to make sure --

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sorry. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: It's only because 

16 you're using the local language, I just want to 

17 make sure it's clear. 

18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And you 

20 mentioned that there was so the timeline is 

21 Mr. Hinshaw came to you first with the video from 

22 December. And then you looked at the video and 

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1 decided, okay, the video was substantial evidence 

2 and went from there, is that correct, sir? 

3 THE WITNESS: Correct. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: And Mr. Hinshaw came to 

5 you with a second video in January? 

6 THE WITNESS: Right. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Did you tell him 

8 anything in between the first and second video 

9 about watching for any additional information or 

10 bringing any to you? 

11 THE WITNESS: No. He just submitted 

12 it again, just filed another complaint. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And you treated 

14 it as part of the same investigation, it was 

15 still open at that point? 

16 THE WITNESS: Well, each complaint has 

17 to be handled and investigated as they come in. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

19 THE WITNESS: So I investigated that 

20 one and actually created a separate EIR. When we 

21 combined them I believe that was months later 

22 when we were already -- my reports were done and 

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1 I believe regional counsel was -- maybe it was 

2 their idea to kind of combine them to make it --

3 because they're very similar. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: So the EIR that Mr. 

5 Feldman had is a collective report of both 

6 investigations that you did in December and 

7 January. But as you originally drafted them they 

8 were two separate reports and somebody else 

9 combined them? 

10 THE WITNESS: Oh, you know what, I 

11 think I -- I'd have to --well, there would only 

12 be one EIR number then. So maybe I did put them 

13 both in the same report. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So you may have 

15 done it on your own, sir? 

16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think I did 

17 actually. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: And once again, the 

19 sole evidence really was the videos as far as 

20 what you got. You didn't obtain anything from 

21 Pacific in the course of your discussion with 

22 them that showed their culpability for a 

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1 violation? 

2 THE WITNESS: It was solely the 

3 videos, declaration of the videos. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And did your 

5 knowledge of the fact that there was a sort of 

6 anomisity between the two skydiving operations 

7 color viewing of the video at all? 

8 THE WITNESS: No. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Or it didn't matter to 

10 you --

11 THE WITNESS: That's --

12 JUDGE RAWALD: -- the background of 

13 who provided the video to you? 

14 THE WITNESS: That airport and my six 

15 years of experience out there, there is animosity 

16 everywhere. It doesn't sway my decision on what 

17 to enforce and what not to. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: okay. So even though 

19 Mr. Hinshaw was not a friend or was actually 

20 possibly adversarial to them, that did not affect 

21 how you viewed the evidence? 

22 THE WITNESS: It doesn't at all. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Any questions 

2 based on my questions, Mr. Bobertz? 

3 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your Honor. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz first, sir. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. Thank 

6 you. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman. 

8 FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION 

9 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

10 Q Were there any email communications 

11 between you and Mr. Hinshaw regarding what you 

12 needed from him in order to move forward with 

13 your investigation? 

14 A Not -- there was -- I never asked him 

15 for anything to move forward with this 

16 investigation, no. Once I obtained his evidence 

17 it was -- that was that. 

18 Q Did you ever tell Mr. Hinshaw that you 

19 needed statements to corroborate the videos that 

20 he provided to you? 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

I did ask for a statement. 

And was that in emails? 

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1 A It may have been. I can't remember. 

2 Q Did you tell him that he needed to 

3 have time references in his videos? 

4 A No, I don't recall. I always ask for 

5 a statement when I take any complaint. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: And so that would be 

7 the declaration that you were shown 

8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: -- A-6 and A-8? Okay. 

10 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

11 Q Were those prepared at your request, 

12 those declarations? 

13 A I requested a statement. I didn't 

14 prepare it but 

15 Q Did you tell him what needed to be 

16 included in the statement? 

17 A No. Like I said I didn't prepare it. 

18 I just said, I'm going to need a statement signed 

19 from you. 

20 MR. FELDMAN: May I have a couple 

21 minutes, Your Honor? 

22 

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JUDGE RAWALD: You can have a couple 

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1 moments. 

2 (Brief pause.) 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman? 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

5 (Brief pause. ) 

6 MR. FELDMAN: I have nothing further 

7 at this time. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz, any 

9 questions based on Mr. Feldman's follow-up? 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Then does either 

12 party have any desire for this witness to be held 

13 to recall or can we release him to go back to his 

14 duties? Mr. Bobertz? 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: I'd like to hold for 

16 recall. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So sir, what 

18 that means is that you need to be at least 

19 watching your phone, please be within a half hour 

20 to forty-five minutes and be able to come back in 

21 case Mr. Bobertz calls you to come back and 

22 appear and testify some more, okay? 

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1 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Thank you very much. 

3 At this time you can go ahead and step 

4 down. 

5 (The witness was excused subject to 

6 recall.) 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Let's go ahead and take 

8 a five-minute recess. And Mr. Bobertz, when we 

9 return if you can have your next witness ready to 

10 testify. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. 

13 (A short break was taken.) 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: Let's go on the record. 

15 Mr. Bobertz, if you can call your next 

16 witness, please? 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

18 The Administrator calls Inspector Ed 

19 Santa Elena. 

20 

21 

22 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Please take a 

stand, sir. If you could raise your right hand 

by the witness stand? Go ahead and come over 

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1 here. 

2 Whereupon, 

3 EDWARD SANTA ELENA 

4 Was called as a witness herein and, having been 

5 first duly sworn, was examined and testified as 

6 follows: 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Thank you. 

8 Please go ahead and take a seat. 

9 Mr. Bobertz? 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

12 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

13 Q Mr. Santa Elena, can you please spell 

14 your name for the record? 

15 A Sure. It's Edward, it's Echo-Delta16 Whiskey-Alpha-Romeo-Delta, Santa Elena, that's 

17 Santa-Alpha-November-Tango-Alpha, space, Echo18 Lima-Echo-November-Alpha. 

19 Q Thank you. 

20 And where are you employed? 

21 A I'm employed with the Federal Aviation 

22 Administration. 

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1 Q And what are your job duties there? 

2 A Currently or when I wrote the case? 

3 Q Currently, briefly, and then when you 

4 wrote the case. 

5 A Currently I'm with the safety 

6 management system program office out of D.C. But 

7 when I wrote the case I was with the Honolulu 

8 Flight Standards District Office. 

9 Q And what were you job duties as the --

10 at the Honolulu Flight Service -- Honolulu Flight 

11 Standards District Office -- sorry. 

12 A Of the Flight Standards District 

13 Office? Principal operations inspector. 

14 Q Okay. And how long were you in that 

15 capacity? 

16 A As a principal operations inspector 

17 almost 14 years. 

18 Q And can you briefly describe your job 

19 duties as an inspector? 

20 A Sure. As a aviation safety inspector 

21 we covered all the way of oversight of Part 91, 

22 61, 135, 141 operations. We did accident-

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1 incident investigations, complaints, issued 

2 certificates, issued waivers, authorizations, 

3 just to name a few. 

4 Q All right. And do you have any flight 

5 experience? 

6 A I do. I've been flying for over 25 

7 years from Part 61, doing flight instruction, to 

8 Part 91 to 135, 121 operations. I was a lecturer 

9 working on my becoming a professor in my 

10 tenure at the University of Hawaii as a -- as a 

11 professor. 

12 Q So in your job duties as an inspector 

13 for the FAA how did you become involved in this 

14 case? 

15 A I was assigned by our office manager 

16 at the time, Casey Animore. Our office received 

17 a complaint and she assigned it to me. 

18 Q And how did you receive that 

19 complaint? 

20 A Via email, you know. Well, actually 

21 she -- it was -- the assignment was on email but 

22 we talked verbally as well. And basically --

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1 that's basically what normally happens. 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, can I have 

3 the screen up, please? 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

5 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

6 Q Inspector Santa Elena, do you 

7 recognize that document? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q And what is it? 

10 A It's an email that was going back and 

11 forth between my office manager and Mr. T.K. 

12 Hinshaw --

13 JUDGE RAWALD: And for the record there, 

14 he's being shown A-13. 

15 (The heretofore referred to 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234·4433 

document was marked for 

identification as 

Administrator Exhibit Number 

A-13.) 

MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Uh-huh. 

THE WITNESS: regarding the 

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1 complaint that she assigned me to investigate. 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Your Honor, I 

3 move that Exhibit A-13 be admitted into evidence. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman? 

5 MR. FELDMAN: A-13 is the email? 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes. 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: That's correct. 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Yeah, no objection to 

9 the emails. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. No objection, 

11 the document is so admitted. 

12 (The document marked for 

13 identification as 

14 Administrator Exhibit Number 

15 A-13 was received into 

16 evidence.) 

17 MR. FELDMAN: We object, however, to 

18 the contents of the links in that email as 

19 following to be admitted at the same time. 

20 

21 

22 

JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. Those are not 

being admitted, simply the email itself. The 

links themselves deal with different 

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the 

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·. 
1-98 

1 videos and so they're different documents. 

2 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Uh-huh. 

4 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

5 Q So Inspector Santa Elena, after you 

6 got the email and were assigned the 

7 investigation, then what happened? 

8 A I generated a letter of investigation 

9 which we would normally do and sent it to Mr. 

10 Gee. And after that, a couple of days after that 

11 we received got the link and observed it. 

12 Then Inspector Tom Brim, aviation safety 

13 technician Dennis Mashima, came down with me to 

14 Dillingham and we went to try and go to visit Mr. 

15 Gee. I was told by -- I'm not sure if she was a 

16 receptionist, one of the ladies that was in, she 

17 introduced I asked if there was somebody I 

18 could talk to regarding the complaint that our 

19 office received. And she said that I guess he 

20 was known as the chief pilot, Mr. Randy Pacheco. 

21 So I spoke with Randy and I brought to 

22 his attention that our office 

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received a 

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1 complaint regarding the 22nd and 25th. And I 

2 requested who the pilots were and he said that 

3 there were only two pilots on staff or there was 

4 only two pilots that flew for them, and that was 

5 himself and Mr. I can't think of the other 

6 gentleman's name at this time but there was only 

7 two of them. 

8 And before I proceeded forward I 

9 handed him a Pilot's Bill of Rights, explained to 

10 him, and then I star.ted talking to him about what 

11 the complaint was. He then mentioned to me that 

12 that day was cloudy but he waited until the 

13 clouds were away before he released his jumpers. 

14 Then we proceeded -- and we proceeded down to the 

15 hangar where the other aircraft was. I spoke 

16 with the other pilot and handed him his Bill of 

17 Rights and then we started -- I asked for the 

18 aircraft logs for that aircraft that flew on 

19 those two days and then I made copies of those. 

20 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, we'll take 

21 the screens off if you could turn that back on? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD : I took them off only 

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1 because you were walking around and I wanted to 

2 see what you were doing. so back on. 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 

4 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

5 Q Inspector Santa Elena, in front of you 

6 is Exhibit A-17. It 1 s already been admitted. 

7 But is that one of the aircraft records you were 

8 referring to? 

9 A Yeah, the pilot's name was Jerry 

10 Richards was the other pilot. 

11 Q Okay. And then next is Exhibit 18, 

12 also already admitted. But is that the record 

13 for the other flight you were talking about? 

14 A That's correct. Because Randy told me 

15 h flew on the 25th and Jerry flew on the 22nd. 

16 That's correct. 

17 Q All right. And then also admitted but 

18 I believe at some point you copied some pages 

19 from Pacific Skydiving's website. Is that as 

20 shown as Exhibit A-19? 

21 A That's correct. 

22 MR. BOBERTZ: NO further questions, 

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1 Your Honor. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman? 

3 CROSS EXAMINATION 

4 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

5 Q Mr. Santa Elena, we met before. I'm 

6 Robert Feldman representing Pacific Skydiving. 

7 Those pages you copied regarding 

8 Skydive Pacific Skydiving, were they included 

9 in the enforcement investigation report you 

10 prepared? 

11 A I don't recall. I don't believe it --

12 believe it was. I'd have to actually look at the 

13 file but I don't recall that I included that on 

14 the form. 

15 Q Why not if they weren't included? 

16 A I think I printed it out per the 

17 request from legal counsel, if I remember 

18 correctly. 

19 Q And you did prepare an enforcement 

20 investigation report, correct? 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

That's correct, sir. 

Okay. And that's already admitted. 

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1 Let me just show you the report and confirm it's 

2 the one that you 

3 MR. FELDMAN: May I approach the 

4 witness? 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: You may. 

6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't have 

7 my glasses so I'm just going to have to take a 

8 look at this a little bit. 

9 (Brief pause.) 

10 THE WITNESS: You want me to look at 

11 the whole thing? 

12 MR. FELDMAN: No. 

13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD : So the witness has 

15 reviewed and identified the EIR? Is it the EIR? 

16 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your Honor. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. 

18 And just for clarity in the record 

19 that's R-18. 

2 0 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

21 Q With respect to this exhibit did you 

22 prepare the statement of the case? 

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1 A Yes, sir. 

2 Q And in this, did you consult with 

3 anyone else in preparing this statement of the 

4 case? 

5 A That actually there was two other 

6 case related to that case so I utilized the notes 

7 that I had from the other two cases to that. And 

8 I can't say on which portion I ended the writing 

9 on the case because I was reassigned to do 

10 something else. So but the body of Section B, 

11 pages 1 and 2 I -- matches the related cases that 

12 I finished and completed myself. So I can't tell 

13 you on what extent where I ended the writing of 

14 that case but I know that section B, that I wrote 

15 that, the first two pages. 

16 Q So are you saying that you completed 

17 the reports for the enforcement investigation 

18 report for the dates that occurred in December 

19 and January rather than having rather than 

20 receiving the completed report and using that as 

21 a model? 

22 A 

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No, not on December and January. I 

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1 didn't write those cases. What I'm talking 

2 about, if you look at the top-right corner of 

3 that 2150 it has another number to it. Those are 

4 two separate related cases for the actual pilots 

5 that flew those dates. Those are the related 

6 numbers. It should be the related numbers. If 

7 not --

8 JUDGE RAWALD: We have confusion here. 

9 You're not referring to the past investigation of 

10 Pacific, you're saying that you had two 

11 investigations of the pilots that were going on 

12 as well as the investigation of Pacific that 

13 you're referring to in the report? 

14 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

16 THE WITNESS: Now just to clarify, 

17 that related number on the top right-hand corner 

18 might be the one that's tied to the December and 

19 January. I would have to look at that and I 

20 would have to look in our database to verify 

21 that. But normally we would put the related 

22 cases to that. 

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1 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

2 Q Or that could be the pilot case, 

3 correct? 

4 A That could be. It could even be the 

5 occurrence that happened in December and January 

6 or it could be the occurrence of the two related 

7 pilots. I would have to pull up those numbers on 

8 our -- on our database to verify it. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Well just to verify by 

10 the computer. So regardless of the numbers in 

11 the report, what you were talking about when you 

12 said you completed two other reports, those are 

13 reports regarding the pilots? 

14 THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: For the same incidents 

16 

17 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: -- in March 2013? 

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. 

20 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

21 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

And in this statement of the case you 

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1 state that the video was provided to you as a 

2 YouTube link from -- by Mr. Hinshaw, correct? 

3 A That's correct, sir. 

4 Q Okay. And so you went to YouTube to 

5 view it? 

6 A That's correct. 

7 Q And you state here that the video was 

8 filmed directly under the drop zone and clearly 

9 shows jumpers falling through an overcast layer 

10 of clouds with two canopies deployed in the 

11 overcast conditions. By two canopies deployed in 

12 the overcast conditions, what do you mean? 

13 A Actually when I originally wrote the 

14 case because I viewed the videos recently 

15 because it's been over two years so I wanted to 

16 review the case on my own as well, and with legal 

17 counsel's discussion. And I did -- and I can 

18 explain why I did mention it was overcast. But 

19 looking at the video again it wasn't overcast 

20 condition, I would say it's probably broken on 

21 the -- from the video that we've seen. So to say 

22 it was an overcast conditions is an error on my 

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1 part. 

2 Q By broken, sky cover is measured in 

3 eighths, correct? 

4 A That's correct. 

5 Q What is the definition of broken? 

6 Overcast would be seven-eighths to solid. What 

7 is the definition of broken? 

8 A That's actually --

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Again, objection, Your 

10 Honor. This --

11 THE WITNESS: Actually, that's 

12 incorrect. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry. This witness 

14 isn't being called as an expert again, and he's 

15 being used by the Respondent to give expert 

16 testimony prohibited by 49 CFR Part 9. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD : Right. Counsel, I'm 

18 going to allow this under the additional rule 

19 because he brought up the idea that it should be 

20 broken rather than overcast. So it's fair to 

21 probe -- in fact, I was going to ask the witness 

22 what he meant by those terms. 

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1 THE WITNESS: That's not a problem, 

2 Judge. Overcast condition actually is correct on 

3 your part, it's eight-eighths of the sky is 

4 overcast and broken is five-eighths to seven5 eighths. That's the definition 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: So your view on 

7 watching the videotape now is that you should 

8 have said broken whereas when you wrote the 

9 report you said overcast? 

10 THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir. 

11 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

12 Q I didn't understand that. So you're 

13 saying overcast means eight-eighths 

14 A That's correct. 

15 Q -- completely covered? 

16 A That's correct. For the definition, 

17 yes. 

18 Q And broken is --

19 A Five-eighths to seven-eighths of the 

20 sky coverage. 

21 Q Meaning that there are patches of open 

22 sky within the cloud layers? 

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1 A That's correct. 

2 Q Did you observe multiple layers of 

3 clouds in the videos? 

4 A You could see that there was multiple 

5 layers of clouds, yes. 

6 Q And when you say it was filmed 

7 directly under the drop zone, what do you mean? 

8 A He was in the vicinity of the drop 

9 zone. 

10 Q Who was in the vicinity of the drop 

11 zone? 

12 A T.K. 

13 Q Okay. But were the jumpers directly 

14 over T.K. or are they opening in some place at an 

15 angle to T.K.? 

16 A They were in the vicinity of the drop 

17 zone. Now if he -- if you want to specify your 

18 question, I guess. 

19 Q Was the video shot by Mr. Hinshaw 

20 looking straight up or was it looking out at an 

21 angle from the camera position? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

I would say it was probably at a 

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1 slight angle. I couldn't tell you exactly what 

2 the degree of angle it was. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Sir, only testify to 

4 what you actually know. If you don't know, don't 

5 guess. That's fine. 

6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

7 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

8 Q But when you say the video was filmed 

9 directly under the drop zone, that doesn't mean 

10 that the video was filmed directly under the 

11 jumpers, is that a correct statement? 

12 A What I observed was an individual 

13 taking video in the vicinity of the drop zone, at 

14 the drop zone straight up. That's what I 

15 observed from the video. 

16 Q And you observed in the video that the 

17 jumpers were straight up from the camera? 

18 A Through my observation, that's what I 

19 saw. 

20 

21 

22 

Q Okay. Then you say that they again 

at 10:27 HST, 9089 Bravo Whiskey towards 

Dillingham unit (inaudible) -- is taxiing in 

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1 for runway eight. Fifteen minutes and forty-six 

2 seconds into the video he calls jumpers away. 

3 The video is filmed directly under the drop zone 

4 and clearly shows jumpers free falling through an 

5 overcast layer of clouds with several canopies 

6 deployed in the overcast conditions. 

7 What did you mean by that? 

8 A There was jumpers coming out. And 

9 again, I meant -- looking at the videos it should 

10 have been broken. I saw -- I observed jumpers 

11 coming through broken clouds. That's what I 

12 meant. At the drop zone. 

13 Q But did you observe any actually going 

14 through a cloud? 

15 A I believe the first one that I saw, 

16 yes. And I'd have to look at the video again to 

17 tell you which one that I saw and identified. 

18 Q And at 11:47 at the 29 minute and 51 

19 second mark they announced jumpers away and you 

20 said the video was filmed directly under the drop 

21 zone and clearly shows jumpers falling through an 

22 overcast layer of clouds with several canopies 

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1 deployed in the overcast conditions. Again, same 

2 thing, these clouds were broken and not overcast? 

3 A That's correct. 

4 Q And did any of the jumpers in that, to 

5 your recollection, go into or through a cloud? 

6 A To my recollection, that's correct. 

7 Q That they did? 

8 A That they did, yes. 

9 Q And on March 26th, you referenced 

10 that, you were provided another YouTube link by 

11 Mr. Hinshaw? 

12 A On the 26th, yeah, we -- yes, for the 

13 email. 

14 Q Okay. And that was for events that 

15 allegedly occurred on the 25th? 

16 A I believe so. I would have to look at 

17 the -- again, it's been over two years. I'd have 

18 to look at the case and specifically verify that. 

19 Q And you state here the video was 

20 filmed directly under the drop zone. Again 

21 you're stating that the cameraman was looking 

22 straight up at jumpers directly above him? 

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1 A That's correct. If I wrote that then 

2 that's what I meant. 

3 Q And at 10:18 at the seven minute and 

4 forty-five second mark of the video you state, 

5 clearly it shows jumpers free falling through an 

6 overcast layer of clouds with multiple canopies 

7 deployed in the overcast. Did you again mean 

8 broken? 

9 A That's correct. 

10 Q And were any jumpers actually in the 

11 clouds or were they below the clouds when you 

12 observed them? 

13 A From what I observed there was the 

14 penetration through a cloud and then the 

15 deployment of the parachute. 

16 Q You saw the jumpers in free fall and 

17 the parachutes deploying? 

18 A I'm not sure if it's specifically that 

19 time that you dictated but on the videos I did 

20 see a jumper going through -- appearing and then 

21 the chute opened. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

So I'll rephrase there. So there's a 

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1 cloud then you see somebody coming through the 

2 cloud. 

3 Q In free fall? 

4 A And then the parachute opened. I'm 

5 not a para I 'm not a jumper so I can't 

6 specifically free falling, I'm assuming you 

7 mean that the parachute's not deployed. 

8 Q Do you know what altitude they were 

9 opening their parachutes? 

10 A No. 

11 Q And then it says at 11:03 in the 14 

12 minute mark the jumper -- the video clearly shows 

13 jumpers free falling through an overcast layer of 

14 clouds with multiple canopies deployed in the 

15 overcast conditions. Again you mean broken 

16 conditions? 

17 A That's correct, sir. 

18 Q And then you say on March 31st, 2014 

19 Mr. Hinshaw provided a signed statement to 

20 authenticate the footage. Was that statement 

2 1 prepared at your request? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

I believe I made a request for him to 

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1 make a statement to verify that he the 

2 validity of the video. 

3 Q Did you communicate with Mr. Hinshaw 

4 by email? 

5 A If I recollect, on the 27th when we 

6 went to Dillingham I believe we made the request 

7 then, if I remember correctly, on the 27th when 

8 we went down to talk to Mr. Gee. We visited Mr. 

9 Hinshaw after that. 

10 Q Did you have any email communications 

11 with Mr. Hinshaw regarding these incidents in 

12 this investigation, enforcement investigation 

13 report? 

14 A I believe I responded to T.K., and I'd 

15 have to look through my emails, informing him 

16 that I was investigating the complaint. I'm not 

17 sure what other email traffic there was there 

18 other than that. I'd have to look on my 

19 computer. 

20 Q Did -- at some point in time did you 

21 receive an email from T.K. Hinshaw requesting 

22 that you speak at some event at his drop zone? 

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1 Or maybe it was Frank Hinshaw. 

2 (Brief pause. ) 

3 Q It was Frank Hinshaw. 

4 A Yeah, I don't recall. I know we had 

5 speaking engagements down at the facility, not at 

6 his facility but I believe it's Camp Erdmann. 

7 But I don't recall if that was per Mr. Hinshaw's 

8 request or from our officer manager's request due 

9 to all of the activities that were going on at 

10 Dillingham. So I --

11 Q And what did you speak about? 

12 A I didn't speak. I just attended. 

13 (Brief pause.) 

14 Q Who is Mr. Yanimura? 

15 A Casey Yanimura -- it's a she. But she 

16 was the previous office manager at the Honolulu 

17 Flight Standards District Office. 

18 Q Were you copied with communication 

19 emails between T. K. Hinshaw and Ms. Yanimura 

20 regarding the alleged incidents of jumping into 

21 or through clouds? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Yes. Well, which one 

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are you 

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1 specifically discussing? About this case or 

2 another case? 

3 Q Yeah, about this case. 

4 A Yes. And again, I 'd have to look 

5 through my email if it was sent directly to me 

6 from T.K. or from Ms. Yanimura. 

7 Q Now in the preparation of your report 

8 did you send a letter of investigation to Pacific 

9 Skydiving? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q And prior to sending that letter of 

12 investigation did you determine whether or not 

13 Pacific Skydiving was a small business entity? 

14 A I don't recall. 

15 Q At any point did you send a Ombudsman 

16 letter regarding the small --

17 A No. 

18 Q -- to Pacific International Skydiving? 

19 A No. 

20 Q Do you know if any was ever sent? 

21 A Not to my knowledge. In fact, 

22 discussing with legal counsel I didn't know that 

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1 existed. 

2 Q Are you aware of a requirement in 

3 Order 2150.3(b) that that should be sent to a 

4 when an investigation is started with a small 

5 business entity? 

6 A Now I do after discussion with legal 

7 counsel. 

8 Q But you didn't know it at the time you 

9 sent this? 

10 A No, I didn't. 

11 Q And do you know, was it ever 

12 determined whether or not Pacific Skydiving was a 

13 small business entity? 

14 A Can you say that again? 

15 Q Was it ever determined whether or not 

16 Pacific Skydiving was a small business entity? 

17 A I don't recall. 

18 Q You know what a small business 

19 Ombudsman is? 

20 A I can't I can't paraphrase it but 

21 I did read it. I did read about it but I'm not 

22 an expert in that. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Let me just clarify, 

2 you didn't know what it was at the time of the 

3 investigation. That's pertinent. 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. 

5 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

6 Q Now were the flights did you 

7 determine whether the flights operated by -- at 

8 Pacific International Skydive, were they operated 

9 under Part 91 or Part 135, and the flights 

10 involved in this investigation? 

11 A Part 91. 

12 Q And under Part 91 there is no chief 

13 pilot, is that a correct statement? 

14 A Yeah, that's very correct. 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, Your Honor. 

16 Again, Respondent is getting into expert 

17 testimony from --

18 JUDGE RAWALD: I do only want this to 

19 the extent of the limits of lay perceptions, 

20 counsel. So if you can that --how it relates to 

21 the credibility of the investigation as opposed 

22 to him testifying as an expert, I'd appreciate 

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1 it. The objection is sustained. 

2 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, he raised a 

3 statement that he said that someone represented 

4 that they were a chief pilot. That's what I'm 

5 trying to clarify. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD : Yeah, well you can go 

7 into that. 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. 

9 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

10 Q When someone you stated that 

11 somebody at Pacific Skydiving said that Randy 

12 Pacheco was the chief pilot? 

13 A That's correct. 

14 Q Do you know what he meant by that? 

15 A To me, when I hear that from an 

16 individual that's that I believe doesn't 

17 understand the difference between a 91 and a 135 

18 certification, I'm assuming -- my belief is that 

19 that person is talking about the highest 

20 individual for that position. And when she told 

21 me that he was their chief pilot my idea was, 

22 okay, that is the main pilot for the company and 

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1 that's who I'm going to talk to since she said 

2 that. Mr. Gee wasn't there and Randy was at the 

3 facility. 

4 Q But you understood it to not mean 

5 chief pilot in the sense of --

6 A Oh, yeah. 

7 Q -- Part 135? 

8 A Yeah. They're not certified by our 

9 agency to hold a 135 certificate. They don't 

10 have that authorization. 

11 Q So who in your investigation was it 

12 that made the decision to operate the flight? 

13 Was it Pacific Skydiving or was it the pilot who 

14 made the decision to take off, for instance? 

15 A My decision was in who gave them the 

16 authorization to take off. My investigation was 

17 what company was operating that flight and who 

18 was the pilot of that flight. 

19 Q But if it's Part 91 and not Part 135, 

20 isn't the pilot operating the flight? 

21 A 

22 was 

(202) 234-4433 

Yeah, but it's not his airplane. I 

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1 Q Who is responsible for the safety of 

2 the flight? 

3 A Well, it's one -- for 105 it's either 

4 the jumper and the pilot is responsible. 

5 Q The pilot in command is responsible 

6 for the safety of the flight, correct? 

7 A That's correct. 

8 Q Okay. And who was responsible for 

9 deciding how to fly the aircraft when -- after it 

10 takes off? 

11 A The pilot. 

12 Q And who's responsible for deciding 

13 when a parachutist should get out of the aircraft 

14 during a flight? 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Again, 

16 getting into expert testimony for which this 

17 witness has not been proffered and --

18 JUDGE RAWALD : Well, the predicate 

19 before this litany of questions was, in the 

20 course of his investigation as he was looking at 

21 it, because he made a conclusion that Pacific was 

22 responsible for these actions. He's just trying 

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1 to go into what was the thought process that went 

2 to that conclusion so I'm going to allow it, 

3 counsel, understanding that that was the caveat 

4 that opened this up. Not that it's law but 

5 that's what he was thinking as he wrote the 

6 report. so I'm going to allow the question. 

7 Objection overruled. 

8 THE WITNESS: The pilot. 

9 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

10 Q And would the jumper also be involved 

11 in that decision? 

12 A Yeah. 

13 Q So it's do I understand it 

14 correctly that in your investigation you 

15 determined that it was the jumper and the pilot 

16 who were responsible for determining when a 

17 jumper would get out of the aircraft as a joint 

18 decision, correct? 

19 A Again, that was the related the 

20 related case. And as I mentioned before, the two 

21 related cases were the two pilots and the 

22 company. 

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1 Q How did the company -- how was the 

2 company involved in your investigation in making 

3 the decision when a jumper would get out of the 

4 aircraft? 

5 A It was company operated aircraft. So 

6 the company would have to -- somebody would have 

7 to -- somebody from the company would have to 

8 authorize the use of that aircraft. 

9 Q But in terms of deciding when someone 

10 would get out of that aircraft, did the company 

11 have any part in that decision? 

12 A I don't know what's briefed prior to 

13 the prior to them taking off. I don't know 

14 what their 

15 Q Did you ask them? 

16 A I don't know what their policy is. 

17 Q Did you investigate that? 

18 A No. 

19 Q So you don't know whether anybody said 

20 you get out at this point prior to the flight? 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

That's correct. 

But you don't know that that actually 

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1 happened, either, correct? 

2 A That's correct. 

3 Q Did you conduct any personal 

4 surveillance of Pacific International Skydiving 

5 Center in furtherance of your enforcement 

6 investigation report preparation? 

7 A Can you rephrase that question? 

8 Q Yes. Did you conduct any personal 

9 surveillance at Dillingham Airfield of Pacific 

10 International Skydiving's operations in 

11 furtherance of your preparation of this 

12 enforcement investigation report? 

13 A Not specifically for that case. One 

14 of our functions as an inspector is we were once 

15 in a while by our management to go out and 

16 surveil the drop zones. So not specifically a 

17 company but the activities going on at that 

18 airport. 

19 Q And in the course of your 

20 investigation did you observe personally any 

21 Pacific International Skydivers jumping into or 

22 through clouds? 

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1 A No. Not with me being out there, no. 

2 I did not witness 

3 Q So the only evidence upon which your 

4 report, your enforcement investigation report is 

5 based are these videos, is that correct? 

6 A That's correct, sir. 

7 Q All right. Did you have any 

8 discussions with Pacific International Skydiving 

9 personnel regarding the videos that you received 

10 which allegedly showed jumping into and through 

11 clouds? 

12 A I recall not specifically but 

13 discussing with the two pilots what was observed 

14 and what the complaint was about. 

15 Q And did the pilots deny conducting 

16 parachute operations into or through clouds? I 

17 understand the case was settled but prior to the 

18 settlement did they deny that they did that? 

19 A Can you rephrase the question? Is 

20 that what -- are I'm not sure what you're 

21 trying to 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Well, when you confronted the pilots 

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1 

2 A Okay. 

3 Q -- and said, we -- our investigation 

4 based on our investigation we believe that you 

5 were dropping jumpers into or through clouds. 

6 Did they say, yes, we were? Did they say, no, we 

7 weren't? Or did they not say anything? 

8 A I don't recall what Jerry said but I 

9 recall Randy saying that it -- the weather, it 

10 was cloudy over the field but he waited until it 

11 wasn't -- he waited until it was clear before he 

12 released the jumpers. 

13 Q And do you have any evidence to the 

14 contrary that he waited? Do you have any 

15 evidence that he didn't wait? 

16 A No. 

17 Q And 

18 A Well, when you say evidence --

19 Q You didn't determine that he that 

20 there was evidence that he didn't wait, that he 

21 just went up and dropped the jumpers rather than 

22 circling or waiting for a clear area or finding a 

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1 clear area to drop the jumpers? Your 

2 investigation didn't uncover that? 

3 A No. Only whatever was played on the 

4 video with the specific time hacks that Mr. 

5 Hinshaw provided. 

6 Q And 

7 A And from the videos on the the 

8 other videos that we have from the individual 

9 jumpers. 

10 Q Did the you didn't have those 

11 videos at the time of your enforcement 

12 investigation report, did you, from the 

13 individual jumpers? 

14 A I don't recall when we obtained those. 

15 I couldn't tell you specifically when we obtained 

16 those. 

17 Q And they're not referenced in your 

18 report? 

19 A Okay well, again, I don't recall when 

20 when we received those videos. 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So I guess the 

22 proper question would be, if they're not in your 

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1 report would you have had them? 

2 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah. Yeah. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So you could 

4 have had them and they would have been referenced 

5 in your report? 

6 THE WITNESS: Normally if I have the 

7 evidence it would be in the report. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So if it was not 

9 in your report you probably did not have? 

10 THE WITNESS: That's a correct 

11 statement, sir. 

12 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

13 Q And did you -- in your interactions 

14 with Pacific Skydiving personnel did you 

15 investigate the -- whether they were employees or 

16 independent contractors? 

17 A I couldn't get ahold of -- the only 

18 individuals I got to speak with that I recall was 

19 Mr. Pacheco. 

20 Q Did you obtain a copy at some point of 

21 a jump manifest for those flights? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

The only thing I received for my 

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1 investigation report was the flight log. 

2 Q And how did you obtain the flight log? 

3 A I personally went down there with 

4 another inspector, Tom Brim and with aviation 

5 safety technician Denise Mashimo. I physically 

6 went there on the 27th and I took pictures of it 

7 at their hangar. 

8 Q And did you request from somebody to 

9 see it? 

10 A The flight logs? 

11 Q Yes. 

12 A Yeah, through Randy. 

13 Q Okay. And did they object or did they 

14 

15 A No. 

16 Q -- comply willingly? 

17 A They complied willingly. 

18 Q Okay. So in your opinion, they were 

19 compliant with your investigation? 

20 A With my requests, yes. 

21 Q Did they exhibit any non-compliance 

22 with cooperating with you in your investigation? 

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1 A Not at all. 

2 Q And to your knowledge, were there ever 

3 any prior violations for conducting parachute 

4 operations into or through clouds before your 

5 investigation? 

6 A Not to my -- not to my knowledge. 

7 Q Would you say that they were 

8 exhibiting compliant attitude when they were --

9 when you went up there to meet with them and 

10 requested information? 

11 A During my portion of the 

12 investigation, yes. 

13 Q With respect to the written 

14 declarations of Frank Thomas Kyle Hinshaw that 

15 are attached to your EIR did you tell Mr. Hinshaw 

16 what you needed him to write in those 

17 declarations? 

18 A I didn't tell him to write verbatim, 

19 if that's what you're asking. I just -- to be 

20 honest, I don't recall what was mentioned other 

21 than we need a written statement. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

And after you sent out the letter of 

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1 investigation did you receive a reply to it from 

2 Pacific Skydiving or anyone in their behalf? 

3 A I believe we did. I'd have to look at 

4 the case. Like I said, it's been over two years. 

5 I'd have to look at that portion again. 

6 MR. FELDMAN: May I approach the 

7 witness? 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes. 

9 (Brief pause. ) 

10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I recall this, 

11 yeah. 

12 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

13 Q So in response to your letter of 

14 investigation they didn't just ignore it, they 

15 responded, correct? 

16 A That's correct, sir. 

17 MR. FELDMAN: Nothing further. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Any redirect 

19 based on cross examination? 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: Briefly, Your Honor. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

MR. BOBERTZ: Can you turn the screen 

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1 on for me, please? 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Of course. 

3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

4 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

5 Q Inspector Santa Elena, the 

6 Respondent's counsel mentioned the declaration 

7 from T.K. I'm showing it to you now as Exhibit 

8 A-16. Is that the declaration you're referring 

9 to? 

10 (The heretofore referred to 

11 document was marked for 

12 identification as 

13 Administrator Exhibit Number 

14 A-16.) 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q And you received that from T.K.? 

17 A That's correct. 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I move that 

19 Exhibit A-16 be admitted into evidence. 

20 

21 objection? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD : Mr. Feldman, any 

MR. FELDMAN: As to admission, no. As 

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1 to the factual nature of it, yes. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And that of 

3 course goes to the weight of it so I'll allow you 

4 to cross examine on those points. But there 

5 being no objection to the actual admission of it 

6 I'll go ahead and allow it into evidence. 

7 (The document marked for 

8 identification as 

9 Administrator Exhibit Number 

10 A-16 was received into 

11 evidence.) 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Anything else, Mr. 

13 Bobertz? 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Briefly. 

15 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

16 Q Inspector Santa Elena, do you have any 

17 animosity toward Pacific Skydiving? 

18 A Not at all. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: No further questions. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman, any 

21 recross on his redirect? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. FELDMAN: No further questions. 

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1 I believe that the -- both EIRs have already been 

2 preadmitted. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: They have. 

4 MR. FELDMAN: So need to move into 

5 admission. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And any party 

7 wish to have the witness held for recall? Mr. 

8 Bobertz? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So Mr. Santa 

11 Elena, we're going to release you but you do have 

12 to monitor your cell phone. And if you get a 

13 phone call from Mr. Bobertz please be here within 

14 45 minutes at the most, okay? So I appreciate 

15 it. 

16 (The witness was excused subject to 

17 recall.) 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: We end each day at 4:00 

19 o'clock so after 4:00 o'clock you can assume that 

20 you won't be hearing from us. But do try and 

21 keep an eye on your phone. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Judge. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: You can go ahead and 

2 sit down. 

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

4 MR. FELDMAN: We should instruct the 

5 witnesses to not discuss the 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: They know, but again 

7 yeah --

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, please don't 

9 discuss your testimony with the other witnesses 

10 in this hearing. Thank you. 

11 Thank you for reminding me, Mr. 

12 Feldman. I will give that admonition. 

13 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. Or with any 

14 observers in the courtroom since --

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. 

16 MR. FELDMAN: -- it's material. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Santa Elena 

20 has left the courtroom, you can go ahead, sir. 

21 So here we are, Mr. Hinshaw is your 

22 next witness, is that right, Mr. Bobertz? 

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: That's correct. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: I anticipate the cross 

3 examination will be lengthy from Mr. Feldman's 

4 statements earlier, is that correct, Mr. Feldman? 

5 MR. FELDMAN: Who's the next witness? 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Hinshaw. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Absolutely. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So let's go 

9 ahead and break for lunch now and then come back 

10 and do him. Is an hour sufficient or do you need 

11 an hour and a half? I'm not sure what the lunch 

12 options are around here, what you folks will need 

13 for lunch. 

14 MR. FELDMAN: Let's make it an hour 

15 and a half. 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So do please 

17 come back by -- it's 11:20 now. If we can start 

18 at 12:50 that would be wonderful so we can keep 

19 things moving along. 

20 Also, so Mr. Hinshaw will be most of 

21 the afternoon and then you'll have Mr. McCowan 

22 afterwards. 

(202) 234-4433 

So do you want to have your 

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1 witnesses in today, Mr. Feldman, or do you 

2 MR. FELDMAN: No, Your Honor, I think 

3 we'll schedule that-- I'm not sure that we'll 

4 finish with Mr. McCowan today either. So --

5 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So you can feel 

6 free to let your witnesses know 

7 MR. FELDMAN: because the 

8 examination of the videos is going to be quite 

9 lengthy. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So if you could 

11 have your witnesses prepared to be here tomorrow 

12 morning at 9:00 a.m., so you may want to have 

13 some of them at least be ready by phone so in 

14 case we go faster they can be here tonight. But 

15 if you don't anticipate them being here, I 

16 understand. 

17 MR . FELDMAN: Thank you. I' 11 do 

18 that. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. Let' s go ahead 

20 and break for lunch. 

21 (A 1 unch break was taken. ) 

22 (12 :48 p.m.) 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: We're back from the 

2 lunch recess and Mr. Bobertz is prepared to call 

3 his next witness. 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

5 The Administrator calls Mr. T.K. 

6 Hinshaw to the stand. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Thank you. 

8 Mr. Hinshaw, if you could please raise 

9 your right hand? 

10 Whereupon, 

11 FRANK THOMAS KYLE (T.K.) HINSHAW 

12 Was called as a witness herein and, having been 

13 first duly sworn, was examined and testified as 

14 follows: 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Please sit down. 

16 Mr. Bobertz. 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 

18 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

19 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

20 Q Mr. Hinshaw can you please state and 

21 spell your name for the record? 

22 A My name is Frank T.K. Hinshaw. F-r-a-

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1 n-k, middle name is Thomas, second middle name is 

2 Kyle, last name Hinshaw, H-i-n-s-h-a-w. 

3 Q Thank you, Mr. Hinshaw. 

4 And what is your current employment 

5 status? Where do you work and how long you've 

6 worked there? 

7 A I currently work my father. I help 

8 him with Polo horses and any other tasks that he 

9 needs me to do. 

10 Q And where is that at? 

11 A It's for Skydive Hawaii at Dillingham 

12 Airfield, Dillingham Ranch and also in town. 

13 Q Okay. And how long have you been 

14 working doing that work. 

15 A I've been helping my father officially 

16 since 2007. 

17 Q And what were you doing before that? 

18 A Before that I worked -- I worked as a 

19 performer at King's Village in Waikiki. It's a 

20 job for general ceremony. I also worked in the 

21 Army National Guard as a Thirteen-Foxtrot and 

22 that's the extent of all the work I've done 

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1 outside of Skydive Hawaii. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Excuse me, sir. Did 

3 you say Thirteen-Foxtrot? 

4 THE WITNESS: Thirteen-Foxtrot. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: What does that stand 

6 for? 

7 THE WITNESS: What does Thirteen8 Foxtrot stand for? It's a fire support 

9 specialist. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

11 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

12 Q Are you a pilot? 

13 A I hold a private pilot license for 

14 airplanes, single-engine. 

15 Q And about how many hours do you have? 

16 A Right now I have about 250 hours 

17 logged. 

18 Q Okay. Tell me about your skydiving 

19 experience? 

20 A I began skydiving in 2003, went 

21 through AFF in 2004. After I graduated high 

22 school I had about 1000 jumps logged and after 

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1 returning from the east coast I got my AFF which 

2 is accelerated free fall instructional rating 

3 through USPA, my coach rating and my tandem 

4 rating. I have about 3000 jumps logged at this 

5 time. 

6 Q So in your skydiving do you spend a 

7 lot of time at Dillingham? 

8 A During the time that I was a very 

9 active skydiver I would be at Dillingham almost 

10 seven days a week. 

11 Q But that's not the case at the moment? 

12 A That's not the case at the moment. 

13 Currently I'm a Polo player and so I spend most 

14 of my time with the horses at Dillingham Ranch. 

15 Q Okay. Are there other skydiving 

16 companies at Dillingham besides your company? 

17 A Currently there's one other company, 

18 it's at Dillingham Airfield. It's known as 

19 Pacific International Skydiving or Pacific 

20 Skydiving Honolulu. 

21 Q So how did you come to be involved in 

22 this case against Pacific Skydiving, the FAA case 

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1 against Pacific Skydiving? 

2 A In 2013 I was enrolled full time at 

3 the Pacific Aerospace Training Center which is 

4 located off Lagoon Drive. During the weekends 

5 talking to other skydivers I learned that the FAA 

6 wanted to crack down on skydivers jumping through 

7 clouds. After the crack-down occurred I noticed 

8 that the other company was able to continue 

9 jumping through clouds without any enforcement or 

10 penalty. After complaining to the FAA about it 

11 through the Honolulu Flights Standards District 

12 Office I continued to see that nothing was being 

13 done, that this company, Pacific International 

14 Skydiving continued to jump through the clouds. 

15 And so I took it upon myself without 

16 any --

17 MR. FELDMAN: Objection, he's 

18 expressing an opinion. It's 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: What's wrong with that, 

20 sir? 

21 MR. FELDMAN: They're jumping through 

22 clouds. That's an opinion, that's not --

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: He's just telling us 

2 what he observed, sir. He's not giving a 

3 conclusion that I'm going to use to base my 

4 opinion on. So thank you, sir. Objection 

5 overruled. 

6 THE WITNESS: And so I took it upon 

7 myself to film the operations to show the Flight 

8 Standards District Office that Pacific, in fact, 

9 was jumping through clouds. 

10 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

11 Q So how did you decide to film on a 

12 particular day or a particular jump? 

13 A It generally is obvious when a jump 

14 operation is going to occur because the aircraft 

15 has to make five-minute, one-minute calls on 

16 multiple frequencies. I also would observe the 

17 weather conditions and if I determined that the 

18 aircraft looked like it was going to jump 

19 skydivers through poor conditions I would begin 

20 to film. And I would film until the conclusion 

21 of that operation. Or if I determined that -- or 

22 if I determined that the operation was not a 

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1 violation of 105.17 that I would immediately 

2 cease recording. 

3 Q Did you generally take the videos from 

4 the same location? 

5 A Yes. I was almost always at Skydive 

6 Hawaii which is on the south side of the primary 

7 landing area of Dillingham Airfield. I would 

8 generally be in front of the manifest or in the 

9 parking lot which is furthest away from Pacific 

10 Skydiving. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, can you turn 

12 on the video for me, please? 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes. 

14 Sir, you said the manifest. What do 

15 you mean by that? 

16 THE WITNESS: The manifest is the 

17 office and their job is to basically load, 

18 organize the aircraft. They have to make sure 

19 that the weight and balance of the passengers and 

20 the fuel will not exceed the limitations of that 

21 aircraft. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD: So you do this in a 

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1 particular area at Skydive Hawaii and that's the 

2 place where you were standing? That's what 

3 you're saying? 

4 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was standing 

5 outside the manifest which is located on the 

6 northeast of Skydive Hawaii. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. 

8 Mr. Bobertz? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

10 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

11 Q So Mr. Hinshaw, I've brought up 

12 Exhibit A-56-002 on the screen in front of you. 

13 Can you describe what you see there? 

14 A I see looks like a satellite photo 

15 above both the primary landing area on the left 

16 side and the secondary landing area which is the 

17 Polo field on the right side. 

18 Q Okay. And I see actually on the 

19 screen it says Skydive Hawaii. Which facility 

20 does that refer to? 

21 A So the Skydive Hawaii, the facility is 

22 where the red A is located. 

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1 Q Okay. 

2 A It's 

3 Q And so when you were filming, 

4 approximately where were you located at? 

5 A I was located pretty much exactly 

6 where that red A is on the picture, or to the 

7 right of it in the parking lot. 

8 Q And again, that area, you mentioned 

9 two drop zones. Can you on this photo help 

10 delineate those? 

11 A Yes. The-- there are two drop zones. 

12 Skydive Hawaii is the building on the right which 

13 is directly underneath the A, more or less. And 

14 Pacific Skydiving is the white tent structure to 

15 the left or west in this -- in the case of this 

16 photo. 

17 Q Okay. I'm sorry, what I meant to ask 

18 was the drop zones. Not the operations but the 

19 drop zone landing area, I guess. 

20 A In the photo, center left you can see 

21 the end of the inactive runway. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. 

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1 A Immediately right of the inactive 

2 runway there is a rectangle that is circled by a 

3 road and Farrington Highway, the access road is 

4 the one that has a turn-in. This grass area in 

5 the middle of those roads and the runway is the 

6 primary landing area. 

7 Q Okay. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: And just to be clear, 

9 when you said the location for Pacific, is it 

10 right underneath the word "sky" from skydive? 

11 THE WITNESS: Correct, it's under s-k12 y. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. 

14 Mr. Bobitz. 

15 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

16 Q Did you use the same camera for all 

17 the filmings? 

18 A For all the filmings that were here 

19 for today, yes, I used the same camera. But it 

20 was a Sony HDR CX150. 

21 Q And can you-- so it's a video camera, 

22 obviously. Can you describe it in a little bit 

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1 more detail? 

2 A Sure. It's a very small handheld 

3 camera with a flip-out screen or view finder. It 

4 has a single button, record, stop record, and a 

5 lens cover. It can record in, I believe, 3.1 

6 mega pixil stills and up to 1080 resolution. 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, may I 

8 approach? 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: You may. 

10 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

11 Q Mr. Hinshaw, I 'm handing you what 's 

12 been marked for identification purposes as 

13 Administrator's Exhibit A-5, A-7, A-14 and A-15. 

14 (The heretofore referred to documents 

15 were marked for identification as 

16 Administrator Exhibits Number A-5, A17 7, A-14 and A-15.) 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: And Your Honor, I left 

19 copies of those on your -- up there as well as a 

20 revised copy of all the other FAA exhibits. 

21 

22 

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JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

MR. BOBERTZ: And as well with you, 

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1 Mr. Feldman, all the other FAA exhibits. But I 

2 think you have the Skydive ones but I got a set 

3 for you if you'd like them. 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Are they the same as the 

5 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Yeah, let me take this 

8 set. Okay. 

9 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

10 Q So earlier, Mr. Hinshaw, you were 

11 testifying about the reasons you were taking the 

12 videos and the -- because you felt like the FSDO 

13 wasn't taking any action regarding the violations 

14 you were seeing. So then what did you do with 

15 the video? What did you -- after you took the 

16 videos what did you do with the videos? 

17 A So immediately -- I began recording in 

18 July of 2013 and I didn't immediately turn the 

19 videos. What I saw were clear and apparent 

20 violations of 105.17 into the Honolulu FSDO. I 

21 held on to those videos until about December of 

22 2013 and I provided them to the FSDO at that 

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1 time. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, you have 

3 an objection? 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your Honor. I 

5 object to the conclusory nature of these 

6 violations. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: I'll go ahead and 

8 sustain the characterization by Mr. Hinshaw. If 

9 you can just talk about the facts and not the 

10 conclusions you think, such as the clear 

11 violation of law. You're not here to do that. 

12 So the objection is sustained. 

13 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

14 THE WITNESS: And so in December of 

15 2013, upon showing the FSDO my first videos I was 

16 told that they were too stale and could not be 

17 investigated. So the ver next day I observed 

18 what I thought was a violation. I recorded it 

19 and I provided it to the FSDO via email. At 

20 first I was uploading these files to YouTube 

21 because I didn't have another way to transmit the 

22 videos to the FSDO. 

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1 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

2 Q Okay. So just a few moments ago I 

3 placed in front of you several exhibits starting 

4 with Exhibit A-5. Do you recognize that? 

5 A I recognize this as the DVD that I saw 

6 yesterday and it also has my signature on it. 

7 Q And is that the same video that you 

8 had provided to the FSDO inspectors and you took 

9 on that day? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q And Exhibit A-7, do you recognize that 

12 and what is it? 

13 A It also appears to be the DVD of --

14 depicting January 5th and it also has my initials 

15 on it. It does look like the video -- or it was 

16 the video that I sent in to the FSDO. 

17 Q Okay. And Exhibit A-14, do you 

18 recognize that and what is it? 

19 A I also recognize that. And the same, 

20 it -- it looks like the exact same thing I sent 

21 to the FSDO, the videos. 

22 Q 

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And what was the date on A-14? 

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1 A A-14 is March 27th of 2014. 

2 Q Okay. And do you recall how that one 

3 how you transmitted that to the FSDO? 

4 A These ones would have been uploaded 

5 later on would have been uploaded to Drop Box 

6 first and then FSDO asked me to burn DVDs because 

7 they didn't have enough bandwidth to view the 

8 files. So I would have burned the DVDs and 

9 provided them to the FSDO. 

10 Q Okay. And it's the representation or 

11 the same video that you uploaded previously? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q And Exhibit A-15, do you recognize 

14 that and what is it, please? 

15 A I also recognize it. And it was the 

16 video that I provided to the FSDO with regard to 

17 March 25th, 2014. 

18 Q And was that by the same process? 

19 A It would have been the same process. 

20 I actually did the complaint for 3-22 and 3-25 at 

21 almost the same time. 

22 Q 

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Okay. Thank you. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: So sir, as you're 

2 looking at the DVD there, you said your initials 

3 are on those? 

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, they are. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: So you placed them on 

6 there after watching the video on the DVD, is 

7 that how it worked? 

8 THE WITNESS: That's --yes, sir. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz, can I see 

10 those copies? Because our copies don't have the 

11 initial on them. 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, sir. Yeah. 

13 (Brief pause.) 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: These are the copies 

15 that I gave to the court reporter. 

16 JUDGE RAWALD : That's fine. I just 

17 want to make sure for exhibit identification what 

18 was going on here. 

19 (Brief pause.) 

20 JUDGE RAWALD : Maybe you should show 

21 them to Mr. Feldman too. 

22 

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MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry? 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD : Maybe you should show 

2 them to Mr. Feldman as well just so he's aware 

3 what we're talking about. 

4 (Brief pause.) 

5 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, Mr. Bobertz. 

7 Sorry. 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, the 

9 Administrator moves to move Exhibits A-5, A-7, A10 14 and A-15 into evidence. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

12 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman? 

14 MR. FELDMAN: -- may I voir dire the 

15 witness on these exhibits because they are 

16 copies? 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. I don't have a 

18 problem with you doing that, if you want to ask 

19 him the basis for what his recognition of 

20 MR. FELDMAN: Yeah. 

21 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION 

22 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

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1 Q Do you have the original camera 

2 recordings and on what kind of medium were the 

3 original recordings in the camera? Were they in 

4 a chip or tapes or --

5 A The original recording the camera uses 

6 a card and so they would have been stored 

7 originally on that card. That's and now 

8 they're not no longer on the card, they were 

9 transferred over to a desktop. 

10 Q You don't have the original cards? 

11 A I have the original card but the data 

12 is no longer on that card. And the data is now 

13 on the desktop computer. 

14 Q Why didn't you save the original data 

15 on the cards? 

16 A I had limited resources and I couldn't 

17 buy a whole bunch of cards to save the footage. 

18 So instead I put it on a hard drive on a 

19 computer. 

20 Q Did the FAA ever request that you 

21 provide the original cards to them? 

22 A 

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No, they did not. 

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1 Q And so it was your choice to not give 

2 the card to the FAA but rather give a copy, is 

3 that correct? 

4 A That's not true. 

5 Q Whose -- what isn't true about that? 

6 A It was not my choice at all. I was 

7 asked by the FAA to burn them copies of the DVD 

8 and so that's what I did. 

9 Q And they never asked you for the 

10 originals? 

11 A They did not ask me for the data on --

12 contained on the card in my handheld camera, no. 

13 They did not. 

14 Q Now do you -- when you record on the 

15 cards isn't there some sort of card time code 

16 that's printed on the recordings? 

17 A I don't have knowledge of that. 

18 Q Well, when you play back the recording 

19 in your camera, can you do that? 

20 A If the camera was had a correct 

21 time and date on, maybe, but I don't think so. 

22 Not with the CX150. But I --

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1 Q But does it display time and elapsed 

2 time even if the time is the incorrect elapsed 

3 time? 

4 A On the camera itself as I'm recording? 

5 Q Yes. 

6 A I think that it does. It does show 

7 elapsed time as you're recording. 

8 Q And when you can you watch a 

9 recording in the camera? 

10 A You can play back, yes. 

11 Q And that when you watch it in the 

12 camera it shows the elapsed time, correct? 

13 A I'm not sure without having-- without 

14 looking at the camera and actually checking on 

15 it. I don't know if I can answer that question. 

16 Q Are you aware whether the camera 

17 stores something called metadata with respect to 

18 each file? Do you know what metadata is? 

19 A To the best of my knowledge metadata 

20 is data that's attached to the file and it has 

21 stuff like time and date. 

22 Q And that is lost when you make a copy, 

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1 isn't that correct? 

2 A I'm not I don't know. 

3 Q If it's not on the copy then it would 

4 be lost, correct? 

5 A I guess possibly, yes, it could be. 

6 Q So what you if that data is not on 

7 the copies and it was on the original, they're 

8 not exact copies of the original, are they? 

9 A The --

10 JUDGE RAWALD: I guess I'm going to be 

11 careful here because he can't give a legal 

12 conclusion about that because for purposes of 

13 authenticity, whether they're exact copies or 

14 not. I understand the point you're making and I 

15 think it's clear. But I don't think he's the 

16 proper witness to give that answer. It's 

17 seemingly not within his knowledge. 

18 MR. FELDMAN: I'm concerned, Your 

19 Honor. I don't believe that these exhibits fit 

20 the best evidence rule. 

21 

22 

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JUDGE RAWALD: I understand that. 

MR. FELDMAN: They're not copies. And 

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1 I object to their admission because they're not 

2 exact copies. There's data that isn't present. 

3 We requested original data in our discovery 

4 requests, we weren't provided with it. We have 

5 no way of determining whether or not these files 

6 were edited. 

7 May I continue? 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: You can continue your 

9 question, yes, sir. 

10 MR. FELDMAN: I'm sorry? 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: With your question? 

12 MR. FELDMAN: Yeah. I have a 

13 question. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: Please. 

15 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

16 Q Is -- when your camera is stopped does 

17 it create a new file when it's recording again? 

18 A I'm not a Sony engineer, sir. I have 

19 no idea. 

20 Q Well, when you recorded the data to 

21 another to a copy, did you have multiple files 

22 to record to the copy? Or was it one continuous 

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1 file in the camera for an entire DVD that you 

2 produced? 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: I think I can simplify 

4 this for you, sir. 

5 So it's very clear in watching the 

6 videos that some of them, you started and stopped 

7 the camera. When you copied the file from your 

8 card to the CD, was it multiple files that you 

9 burned onto the CD or was it one file even though 

10 you started and stopped the camera? 

11 THE WITNESS: They were multiple 

12 files. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

14 THE WITNESS: Multiple files that were 

15 all from the same event. 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Did that answer 

17 your question, Mr. Feldman? 

18 MR. FELDMAN: That answers my 

19 question, yes. 

20 Your Honor, based on the testimony of 

21 the witness we move to exclude the data under the 

22 best evidence rule because it is not a true copy 

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1 of the original. If the files are strung 

2 together we've lost the metadata, we have no way 

3 of identifying the accuracy of them, the time of 

4 them, the relative time, a watch on these -- on 

5 these recordings is meaningless because I can set 

6 my watch to whatever I choose to set it to. 

7 There's no way of telling if they've been edited 

8 and it does not -- the copy was available but it 

9 was the choice of the witness to not save them, 

10 he destroyed them. And what we have now is 

11 unusable to impeach the witness and we're being 

12 prejudiced that this data is used against the 

13 Respondent. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

15 MR. FELDMAN: It does not match the 

16 best evidence rule. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD : Mr. Bobertz, what's 

18 your response? 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, this is more 

20 for its administrative court so the federal rules 

21 are a guidance. And we have Mr. Hinshaw on the 

22 stand to give testimony as to a lot of those 

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1 factors that Respondent's attorney has concerns 

2 with. We're going to see the videos, the videos 

3 speak for themselves. If there's -- you know, he 

4 has his opportunity to cross examine Mr. Hinshaw 

5 regarding what he's already asked him about and 

6 additionally about the authentic authenticity 

7 of the videos. There's going to be other videos 

8 from Pacific that are going to corroborate Mr. 

9 Hinshaw's videos. So there's going to be plenty 

10 of evidence to show that they're authentic or for 

11 Mr. Feldman to have the opportunity to question 

12 their authenticity. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And concerning 

14 the admission of evidence, and now, Mr. Feldman, 

15 I'm prepared to rule. 

16 Concerning the admission of evidence 

17 under the administrative law that we have here, I 

18 have to look at 14 CFR Section 13.222 subsection 

19 B which is described as really the bar for 

20 evidence to be. 

21 The Administrative Law Judge shall --

22 which is 

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mandatory admit 

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1 documentary or demonstrative evidence introduced 

2 by a party but shall -- once again exclude 

3 irrelevant, immaterial or unduly repetitious 

4 evidence. 

5 In looking at the relevant rulemaking 

6 that established these rules it's very clear the 

7 administrator decided they want to have a very 

8 broad based approach for having it in especially 

9 because there's no jury for administrative law. 

10 So this evidence is neither irrelevant, 

11 immaterial nor unduly repetitious. 

12 Now the best evidence rule is 

13 important, it does provide some sort of 

14 indication for what should be allowed in. At 

15 this time there is some reason to possibly 

16 question the credibility of this evidence. It is 

17 not, however, sufficient to bar the admissibility 

18 under the rule. There's no administrative case 

19 law or federal case law, frankly, in this context 

20 that would allow me to bar the admission of the 

21 evidence so I cannot do so. 

22 So I will admit it but I understand 

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1 that there are reasons to doubt the credibility, 

2 sir, and I will give you the opportunity to, of 

3 course, continue such attack on the credibility 

4 through cross examining and the direct 

5 examination of other witnesses later. Okay? 

6 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, may I 

7 respond? The problem is 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: There's really no 

9 response to an order. There was a ruling, sir. 

10 I've ruled. 

11 MR. FELDMAN: I'm just wondering how 

12 we can respond to how we can examine the 

13 evidence if we don't have the data that has been 

14 destroyed. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. And I'm 

16 constrained by what the rules are. And so I 

17 can't make new rules here in court. What I can 

18 do is I can say what the law says and what the 

19 law allows. And if at the time this affects the 

20 outcome of this case, on your appeal you can say, 

21 Administrator, this is an awfully unfair outcome. 

22 And my basis for appeal is the fact that, because 

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1 of the rule you have in place which allows the 

2 evidence admission of evidence without really 

3 any sort of constraint by things such as the best 

4 evidence rule, my client was prejudiced. And the 

5 administrator should consider that. But I cannot 

6 -- so in response to you, I cannot develop a rule 

7 that does not exist and such a rule is in place. 

8 so I apologize, sir, fir any sort of feeling you 

9 have of it being inequitable but it is the law. 

10 So that is my ruling on the issue. 

11 So I'm going to allow the evidence in 

12 at this time. 

13 (The documents marked for 

14 identification as 

15 Administrator Exhibits 

16 Number A-5, A-7, A-14 and A17 15 were received into 

18 evidence.) 

19 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz. 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, if you could 

22 cue the video for me, please? Oh, you've already 

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1 got it up. Great. 

2 All right. Let me pause it here for a minute. 

3 So I was going to run through the 

4 majority of the videos. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: Are you going to play 

6 them in their entirety? Because they're awfully 

7 long. 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: They are. I'm going to 

9 play the majority of them but I was not going to 

10 play them in their entirety. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: I was going to try and 

13 focus on the more relevant sections. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: Yeah, if we could skip 

15 to the things that are important that would be 

16 helpful. And just skip the things -- just tell 

17 us where we are in the time stamp. 

18 Yes, Mr. Feldman? 

19 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, Your Honor. In 

20 order to properly respond to these videos there 

21 has to be some way of identifying where the 

22 portions 

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the Administrator plays 

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are with 

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1 relation to the entire video. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD : No, I agree. So the 

3 time stamp on the bottom of where the running 

4 video is, right now it says 00:02. What I ask is 

5 that when Mr. Bobertz stops to discuss something 

6 that he tell us what the time stamp is for 

7 purposes of the record. 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Because my videos didn't 

9 have time stamps, the ones that were provided by 

10 the Administrator to me. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, it's not from the 

12 video, sir, it's from the Word Media Player 

13 program which has in the very bottom of the 

14 screen, as we all can see, oo: 02 next to the 

15 play, fast forward and record function. This is, 

16 of course, the program's feature, not a feature 

17 of the video but that is what we will use as a 

18 standard practice and all through the course 

19 regarding applying evidence to use when we have 

20 to go along with the video. 

21 MR. FELDMAN: All right. Because I'm 

22 going to examine frame by frame the videos that 

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1 the administrator uses so 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

3 MR. FELDMAN: I'll need to know 

4 where they start and where they stop, what he did 

5 -- deems as relevant. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Understood. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So right now 

9 we're looking at 85 here for the record. 

10 Mr. Bobertz? 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

12 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

13 Q So I'm going to go to 4:10 where they 

14 say "jumpers, one minute" on it. 

15 (Brief pause.) 

16 Q And then just before I start, so Mr. 

17 Hinshaw, there was a pen there -- oh you got it? 

18 Okay. 

19 A Yes, sir. 

20 Q So -- or Your Honor, feel free to stop 

21 me, rewind me, because it goes fast, it's not 

22 easy to see sometimes. so 

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I 

' 
1-170 

1 JUDGE RAWALD: That's fine. 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: -- let me know and I'll 

3 we could hear the audio a minute ago but it's 

4 actually, the audio is going. I'm going to go 

5 ahead and start. 

6 The audio was going earlier. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD : The volume is pressed 

8 all the way down on your right-hand side next to 

9 the volume -- no, if you go back on the video 

10 screen. Go back up to the video controls, Mr. 

11 Bobertz. See over to the right of the play 

12 button, you've got a little video of the volume. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: Oh, that's it. Thank 

14 you. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: There you go. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you for the 

17 technical support, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman? 

19 MR. FELDMAN: Yeah. With respect to 

20 these videos --

21 JUDGE RAWALD: I would pause just a 

22 moment while he's talking. 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: -- I would request that 

2 the video be admitted but not the audio 

3 commentary which is self-serving and there's no 

4 foundational basis for it. It's opinion from a 

5 lay witness. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz, any 

7 response? 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: Well, it's again, 

9 it's his present sense impression and 

10 interpretation of the time and what was going on. 

11 What better testimony is there than that with his 

12 testimony today to bolster that testimony from 

13 the time he was filming. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: I think Mr. Feldman's 

15 concern is there are times where he says, yep, 

16 there's a clear violation of the FARs, yep, 

17 there's a clear and that's obviously not 

18 allowable. So I'm not going to consider that for 

19 that purpose. 

20 MR. BOBERTZ: Understood. 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: However, there's plenty 

22 of information both positive and negative to Mr. 

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1 Hinshaw's credibility from what he's saying as 

2 he's listening to the recording. And so I think 

3 it's fair for both sides that I consider those 

4 things in looking at his credibility. So I'm 

5 going to consider that, okay, Mr. Feldman? I'll 

6 allow it for those purposes. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Credibility is fine. 

8 Conclusory, look at the violations --

9 JUDGE RAWALD: I'm not going to 

10 consider him an expert on that and his 

11 conclusions about whether it's violating. We 

12 have Mr. Saunders and Mr. McCowan here to do 

13 that. 

14 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. 

16 So let's go ahead and proceed. 

17 Do you want to go back to 4:10? 

18 You're at 4:40 right now. 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: Yeah. 

(A portion of the video was played.) 

THE WITNESS: Pause the video. 

So in the center of the screen there 

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1 is one parachute and that's what I was talking 

2 about at the time, that -- I first noticed that 

3 parachute open. 

4 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

5 Q Okay. It's that one little dot right 

6 in the center? 

7 A In the very center of the screen, 

8 correct. 

9 Q Okay. And did -- could you see that 

10 one either on the video or in -- with your eyes 

11 come through the cloud? 

12 A I saw it with the video that the 

13 jumper went through the clouds and based that off 

14 of having no visual contact and the relative 

15 location of the canopy in relation to the clouds 

16 that are also shown in the video. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD : So Mr. Hinshaw, what 

18 are you looking at? Are you looking at the flip 

19 screen right now? Are you looking through the 

20 view finder or are you looking at the sky while 

21 holding the camera in front of you? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: I'm mostly looking at 

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1 the sky with the camera in front of me. I wasn't 

2 relying on the view finder of the camera. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Or the flip screen? 

4 THE WITNESS: Or the flip screen. I 

5 was only using that to actually frame the shot 

6 because the camera isn't it doesn' t have as 

7 wide a field of vision as my own two eyes. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Shall I proceed? 

10 (A portion of the video was played.) 

11 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

12 Q I know you didn't ask me to pause but 

13 maybe you can describe what you're seeing here 

14 and why you say, they're coming through the 

15 clouds? 

16 A Right. So now the first canopy is 

17 open, the jump run continues. And in about 

18 second intervals tandems and other passengers of 

19 that aircraft would have been getting out on this 

20 jump room. So what you're seeing is after the 

21 first tandem parachute opens, a few seconds later 

22 another parachute will open. And then a few 

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1 seconds later another parachute will open. And I 

2 should note that the broken spot was where the 

3 first canopy kind of opened and the rest are now 

4 directly overhead. And they appear to be 

5 directly penetrating that cloud layer. 

6 Q Okay. So when you say they're 

7 directly overhead from you where is this 

8 you're again you're filming near Skydive 

9 Hawaii, we saw on the map. And where are they in 

10 relation to where -- what kind of angle or is 

11 your camera pointing at or where they're 

12 dropping? 

13 A So right now it appears that I would 

14 be at about zero to maybe ten meter angle from 

15 straight up and I was standing in the northeast 

16 corner of Skydi ve Hawaii south of the primary 

17 landing area. And I know that because in the 

18 video you can see the corner of the building. 

19 Q Okay. Thank you. 

20 And for the record this -- the video 

21 is currently paused as 5:48 and I'm going to hit 

22 play. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Thank you. 

2 (A portion of the video was played.) 

3 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

4 Q So I've now paused the video at 6:07. 

5 Can you describe what we're seeing here, Mr. 

6 Hinshaw? 

7 A I can see that it looks like there's 

8 a tandem parachute opening and falling away from 

9 that parachute there is a videographer. 

10 Q And where is the videographer? 

11 A The videographer is the black dot that 

12 is about -- on my screen anyway about two inches 

13 below and slightly to the right. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Hinshaw, you just 

15 zoomed in there when that were you looking 

16 through the view finder or the flip screen for 

17 that or are you still looking at it with your eye 

18 and you pushed the zoom button? 

19 THE WITNESS: If I was zooming in then 

2 0 I must have been looking at the view finder at 

21 that time. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So you actually 

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1 had it -- the camera to your eyeball? 

2 THE WITNESS: Well, the camera doesn't 

3 have --

4 JUDGE RAWALD: A view finder? 

5 THE WITNESS: -- a view finder. It 

6 only has the screen. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Just the flip screen? 

8 THE WITNESS: So I would have been 

9 looking at the screen to make sure that I was 

10 getting that in the shot. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

12 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

13 Q And now moving on from 6:07. 

14 (A portion of the video was played.) 

15 Q Again now pausing at 6:12. Can you 

16 describe what you're seeing? 

17 A Again, I'm seeing the another 

18 parachute open. It looks like it's another 

19 tandem and then there's a videographer falling 

20 away from it. There's a black dot slightly to 

21 the left of that tandem in the video. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Is that slightly to the left and 

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1 below? 

2 A Left and below, yes, sir. 

3 Q Thank you. 

4 Again we'll go on from 6:12. 

5 (A portion of the video was played.) 

6 Q So again, describe, please? 

7 A So further down jump run I see that 

8 there are two more parachutes that have opened. 

9 And it looks like they penetrated that cloud 

10 layer. 

11 Q ~nd this is at 6:33. Okay. 

12 There's just a couple other things I'm 

13 going to watch on this video then I'm going to 

14 skip to 9:10. 

15 (A portion of the video was played.) 

16 Q So when you zoomed in and you made the 

17 comment "the leadership over there," to what --

18 what are you referring to? 

19 A I was identifying Ebenol who is 

20 sitting in the courtroom here. He is usually 

21 pretty easily identified. He's shorter than most 

22 of his staff and he's losing his hair. 

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1 Q And then at 11 -- that was at 9:15. 

2 And then 11:50. 

3 (A portion of the video was played.) 

4 Q So again, what are we showing here? 

5 A I was showing in the video that Gee 

6 was present during these operations, that he 

7 participated in helping the aircraft load and 

8 that he was in close proximity to the pilot. 

9 Q And the aircraft there, November 

10 A Nine-Zero-Zero-Sierra-Alpha. 

11 Q Okay. All right. I'm going to move 

12 on to the next so that this again was 

13 Administrator's Exhibit A-5 of December 8, 2013. 

14 I'll move on to the next video of January 5th, 

15 2014. So I'm going to play this one let's 

16 see. 

17 (Brief pause.) 

18 Q Okay. I'm going to play this one from 

19 the start for a few minutes. 

20 (A portion of the video was played.) 

21 Q So are -- something I can't tell what 

22 I'm seeing, are those -- are we seeing skydivers 

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1 now? 

2 A Those are skydivers now. I have not 

3 identified them with my own eyes yet which is why 

4 I haven't focused with the camera. But those do 

5 appear to be skydivers. 

6 Q Okay. Through the clouds or do we 

7 know? Or 

8 A They would be through the clouds. 

9 That overcast layer was fairly large and extended 

10 a few miles away from the airport. 

11 (A portion of the video was played.) 

12 Q Okay. I paused the video at 00:47. 

13 Can you describe what we're seeing? 

14 A There is a tandem parachute lower in 

15 the frame and I was describing that I was 

16 visually seeing some parachutes open directly 

17 above me. They should be closer to the center of 

18 the frame. They may not be picked up by the 

19 camera yet because as a tandem parachute comes 

2 0 through the cloud they are partially obscured 

21 until they're all the way through the cloud. And 

22 also because I was not prepared to begin 

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1 recording this load, the autofocus on the camera 

2 is on which is why it goes in and out of focus 

3 periodically. 

4 (A portion of the video was played.) 

5 Q Can you describe what we're seeing 

6 now? 

7 A It's --

8 Q I'm sorry, paused at 1:07. 

9 A And now you're continuing to see the 

10 tandem parachutes open directly beneath the 

11 cloud, directly above me. 

12 Q And that's I see two sort of 

13 shadowy things. Is that the --

14 A Right. The camera is out of focus now 

15 but if you pause it on another frame when it goes 

16 into focus it will be a little bit more clear. 

17 (A portion of the video was played.) 

18 A 

19 Q 

20 A 

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

About there. 

Okay. 

Right there. 

We're at 1:10. Okay. 

And so now you can -- now that the 

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1 camera's in focus you can clearly see the 

2 position of the skydivers beneath the cloud under 

3 an open parachute. 

4 Q Okay. I see a little dot above one of 

5 the open ones, I don't know if that's a dot on my 

6 screen or that's a parachute. I'll go forward a 

7 little bit. 

8 (A portion of the video was played.) 

9 Q All right, dot on my screen. 

10 (A portion of the video was played.) 

11 Q Okay, let's see. Okay. I'm going to 

12 go to 3:50. 

13 (A portion of the video was played.) 

14 Q So I've got -- I paused at 3:51. Can 

15 you explain what we're seeing ? 

16 A That looks like a glider which is 

17 transitioning from the mountain to the ocean side 

18 of the runway in very close relation to the 

19 skydivers in the canopy. 

20 Q All right. Are there a lot of glider 

21 operations out at Dillingham? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Other than the skydiving operations, 

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1 the gliders are generally the busiest. 

2 Q Okay. Is there a danger of 

3 interference with the between the hang gliders 

4 I'm sorry, between the gliders and the 

5 parachutes out there? 

6 A Yes, there is a very real danger. 

7 There have been instances in the past where 

8 skydivers have fallen very close to gliders and 

9 that's been in clear sky conditions. So this is 

10 extremely dangerous. Mostly gliders do not have 

11 radios, either, which should be noted. 

12 Q Okay. I'm going to go to 5:10. 

13 (A portion of the video was played.) 

14 Q So can you describe what we're seeing 

15 at 5:10 or 5:13? 

16 A So this would be the next flight in 

17 the aircraft which is November Niner-Eight-Niner18 Bravo-Whiskey. I'm just showing that another 

19 load is being loaded into the aircraft to do more 

20 jump operations even after the previous one, in 

21 my opinion, was in violation. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

I'm going to play this a little bit 

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1 further. 

2 (A portion of the video was played.) 

3 Q I don't know if you heard that, I 

4 paused at 5:20. Did you pick up that 

5 transmission? 

6 A And so that was it sounded like 

7 that was Skydive Hawaii's Caravan-Eight-Papa8 Alpha, and it sounded like he was saying that he 

9 was going to descend with a full load of jumpers 

10 onboard due to sky conditions not being conducive 

11 to skydiving. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: What did he say 

13 exactly? 

14 THE WITNESS: If I remember exactly 

15 what he just said, he said it was Eight-Papa16 Alpha descending with all onboard? 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: And that means? 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Can we play that again? 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Yeah. I'll go back a 

20 little bit and then I think Mr. Hinshaw might say 

21 what it was on the video, too. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD : I just want to 

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1 understand what the exact words were as opposed 

2 to him to explain what those words mean. 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: Sure. Okay. I'm right 

4 there, let me just hit again for one minute. 

5 (A portion of the video was played.) 

6 THE WITNESS: Okay. So what I heard 

7 was Eight-Papa-Alpha coming down with jumpers. 

8 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

9 Q Okay. I'm going to move to 14:45. 

10 (A portion of the video was played.) 

11 Q Okay. Let me go to --

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Just so I can 

13 understand. So those people that were speaking 

14 out at 14:48 at the very end of the video, who 

15 were they? 

16 THE WITNESS: so those were jumpers 

17 that were on that -- the Eight-Papa-Alpha load. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: The Skydiving Hawaii --

19 THE WITNESS: Skydive Hawaii, yeah, 

20 instructors and passengers. And they just 

21 deboarded the aircraft and returned to Skydi ve 

22 Hawaii to wait for the sky conditions to improve. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. 

2 (Brief pause.) 

3 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

4 Q Okay. Now I'm going to 

5 Administrator's Exhibit A-14, the March 22nd, 

6 2014 jumps. This one's a little bit longer but 

7 rather than try to stop and play which may make 

8 it and skip, I'm going to run through the 

9 first five to six minutes. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

11 (A portion of the video was played.) 

12 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

13 Q We know but can you just describe what 

14 we're seeing here, Mr. Hinshaw, please? 

15 A So I recorded that Pacific was loading 

16 their tandems and passengers into November-Niner17 Eight-Niner-Bravo-Whiskey for jump operations. 

18 Q Okay. 

19 (A portion of the video was played.) 

20 Q No, I can skip through a little bit of 

21 this. Let me go to 3:30. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

(A portion of the video was played.) 

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1 Q So you just said in your video that 

2 you have visual with Nine-Bravo-Whiskey. Can you 

3 see on the screen? I just paused at 4:17. 

4 A I should have if I was standing I had 

5 visual contact with Niner-Bravo-Whiskey, that 

6 means I can see him. In the video I'm pretty 

7 sure it's -- the aircraft is still in the lower 

8 portion of the screen in the blue, clear, clearer 

9 area. 

10 Q Right. Is that --

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Okay. So let me keep going. 

13 (A portion of the video was played.) 

14 JUDGE RAWALD : Mr. Hinshaw, who are 

15 you talking to there? 

16 THE WITNESS: That was my father. 

17 (A portion of the video was played.) 

18 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

19 Q So I paused the video at 5:28. Can 

20 you describe what you see, what we see? 

21 A And so after I was describing the area 

22 that might have been a possible -- possibly a 

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1 better area to drop skydivers we now see that 

2 there is one parachute opening and it's lower the 

3 left portion of the screen. 

4 Q Is that right here? 

5 A Yes, that is what I'm talking about. 

6 Q Is that all you see so far? 

7 A So far that's the only one I see. 

8 Q Okay. I'll play maybe two more 

9 seconds. 

10 (A portion of the video was played.) 

11 Q So now I'm at 5:31. 

12 A And you can see that there is another 

13 jumper who appears to be in free fall and 

14 beginning to deploy beneath the first parachute 

15 that I pointed out. And yes, your mouse is 

16 around that black dot. 

17 (A portion of the video was played.) 

18 Q Can you so can you tell which one 

19 is the cameraman and which is the 

20 mentioned one cameraman and one tandem. 

21 you know? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Standard practice 

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is 

you 

How do 

that a 

(202) 234-4433 
1-189 

1 videographer will go and free fall with a tandem 

2 pair to take photos and videos so that you can 

3 sell that media to the passenger. You can 

4 generally tell that a tandem cannot be apart from 

5 the camera or sports guide's canopy because 

6 they're larger. And in this -- at this frame of 

7 the video the tandem canopy is appears to be 

8 the orange colored canopy and the videographer 

9 would be the smaller canopy at the bottom of the 

10 screen. 

11 Q Okay. I'm going to keep playing for 

12 a bit. 

13 (A portion of the video was played.) 

14 Q So I'm now at 5:46 and you mention on 

15 the video there's another tandem opening? 

16 A Yes. I would have seen that with my 

17 own eyes. I may not have been looking at the 

18 screen at the time but it does appear that the 

19 canopy is center lower part of the screen and is 

20 below the cloud. And yes, that is what I'm 

21 talking about. 

22 JUDGE RAWALD: That's at 5:46? 

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. 

2 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

3 Q All right. I'm going to go to 9:45. 

4 (A portion of the video was played.) 

5 Q So you just said that's Gee talking to 

6 Bravo-Whiskey. And what are you describing? 

7 A So during all my recordings I had a 

8 I call them the A-24 handheld radio with me and I 

9 was monitoring the unicorn frequency which is 

10 123.00. On that frequency I heard Gee Benal 

11 asking the pilot of Niner-Bravo-Whiskey to switch 

12 over to their discrete company frequency. 

13 Q Did you hear that a lot during the 

14 recordings? 

15 A Generally Gee Benal would almost 

16 always be on the radio with his pilots at the 

17 time that all these alleged violations were 

18 occurring. 

19 Q Did you hear some of those 

20 communications? 

21 A I did. I would switch over to their 

22 company frequency and listen to what they were 

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1 saying. But I don't think any of these videos 

2 that I recorded that. 

3 Q Okay. I'm going to go to the second 

4 video jump for Mr. Hinshaw on March 22nd. I'm 

5 going to start that at -- oh, okay -- at 10:34. 

6 Yeah, I'm sorry, at 12:34. 

7 (A portion of the video was played.) 

8 Q So you just said, 1042, second attempt 

9 at jump run. What do you mean, can you explain, 

10 please? 

11 A So after I heard the aircraft cut you 

12 can hear the engine, the turbine engines slow 

13 down, they have to slow the aircraft down to 

14 about 9 0 knots for the skydivers to get out 

15 safely. And after that first jump run it didn't 

16 appear that any skydivers got out of the aircraft 

17 and so I stopped recording at that time. However 

18 the aircraft remained in the air so as soon as he 

19 made another pass and I heard him attempt another 

20 jump run I began recording again. 

21 

22 at 14:24. 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD: And the film is paused 

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 

2 (A portion of the video was played.) 

3 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm going to go forward 

4 just a little bit to 15:45, about, 15:40. 

5 (A portion of the video was played.) 

6 Q So I'm paused at 16:20 and you just 

7 stated, there's one, there's two on the video. 

8 Can you explain? 

9 A I would have been seeing canopies 

10 opening. I don't see them in the video yet but I 

11 did see what I believe was the aircraft 

12 descending from jump run in the background. But I 

13 don't think the video camera has picked up those 

14 canopies yet. 

15 Q 

16 

17 

18 A 

19 Q 

20 A 

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. Thank you. 

I'm going to keep playing from 16:20. 

(A portion of the video was played.) 

If you just go back a couple frames? 

Okay. 

There. Okay. 

All right. Now I'm at 16:29. 

So what I'm seeing is there's a canopy 

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1 in the lower part of the screen just above, yes, 

2 the sound. 

3 Q Okay. 

4 A And --

5 Q On there or over here? 

6 A No, that was correct, where you were. 

7 Yes. 

8 Q Okay. 

9 A And on the left-hand side of the 

10 screen it -- more towards the center appeared 

11 that that object that was moving was the plane 

12 descending from jump run. 

13 Q Okay. And so you believe this one 

14 went through a cloud? 

15 A At that time and with the video it --

16 I can't say if that person was -- what distance 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

he was from the clouds or whether or not he 

penetrated. 

Q 

A 

jump plane. 

Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. Is that one here? 

That's the I believe that's the 

I see. Okay. I'm going to keep 

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1 playing. 

2 (A portion of the video was played.) 

3 Q So you -- I don't know if you can see 

4 on the video, you just said, that guy definitely 

5 in that cloud. I paused it at 16:33. 

6 A So what I think I'm talking about is 

7 there is a there is now a canopy appearing 

8 no to your right, in the center -- no, go back 

9 to the left. It's -- okay, a little bit more 

10 left, a little bit more left, and now down. I 

11 was talking about just left of the mouse. Right. 

12 Right there, a canopy was appearing to come 

13 through the clouds. 

14 Q Do you want me to back up a little bit 

15 or is -- do you think he's going to come out or16 

17 A I believe they'll come out. 

18 (A portion of the video was played.) 

19 Q I see now. 

20 A And then you can see that he is a 

21 little bit more visible. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. And you mentioned some others? 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: That's at 16:36. 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 

3 THE WITNESS: Yes. But I don't see 

4 them in the frame right now. 

5 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

6 Q Tell me when you want me to pause. 

7 A Okay. 

8 (A portion of the video was played.) 

9 Q I'm going to fast forward about a 

10 minute. 

11 (A portion of the video was played.) 

12 Q So I paused it at 18:15. As you said 

13 on the video there's some more coming through the 

14 clouds. Can you see them now, what you were 

15 talking about in the video? 

16 A I think they're in the lower portion 

17 of the screen. If you let it play just for 

18 another second or two I might 

19 Q Now? 

20 A it might become a little more 

21 visible. 

22 (A portion of the video was played.) 

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1 A I still don't see -- I don't see it 

2 clearly yet. 

3 Q Do you see that pink one? 

4 A Yes, on the bottom of the screen. 

5 Q Do you see that here? 

6 A That's what I was talking about, yes. 

7 Q so what's your basis for saying this 

8 one went through the cloud? 

9 A so now the that hole that was 

10 formerly present has begun to close a little 

11 more. There is some thinner clouds intermixed in 

12 that broken area and given the FAA's guidance at 

13 the time, which is 2000 feet horizontal from a 

14 cloud, I was stating that I believe that they 

15 were not more than 2000 feet away from the cloud 

16 in free fall or under canopy. 

17 Q Okay. Beyond that do you think this 

18 person actually went through a cloud? I can back 

19 it up a little bit or --

20 A You can back it up a little bit and 

21 I'll take a better look at it. 

22 (A portion of the video was played.) 

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1 Q I tried to keep the controls out of 

2 the way. But --

3 A And so also because I'm not actively 

4 or always looking at the camera's screen I'm not 

5 always -- I don't always have the best framing. 

6 So what I was commenting on was canopies that 

7 were in the lower portion of the frame. And if I 

8 was saying that it looked like they were going 

9 through the cloud then I believe they were going 

10 through the cloud. And I also think that the 

11 video does back that up. 

12 Q Thank you. 

13 All right. I am going to -- this is 

14 still the same date, March 22nd, Exhibit A-14, 

15 jump four. I'm going to go to 2 8 minutes 

16 sorry, 28:26. Oh, sorry, I'm going to go a 

17 little further. Twenty-nine, Twenty-nine, 

18 jumpers one minute. 

19 (A portion of the video was played.) 

20 Q So I'm sorry, it was off a little bit 

21 on my video. But it was 29:50 -- I'm sorry. So 

22 just for the record, what did we just hear? 

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1 A It sounded like a jumpers away call. 

2 Q We're at 29:54, I'll go back just a 

3 little bit. Twenty-nine-forty-four. 

4 (A portion of the video was played.) 

5 Q Can you just --

6 A And so it sounded like it was Nine7 Bravo-Whiskey although it was broken around 

8 Whiskey. And then it sounded like he said, 

9 jumpers away. 

10 Q Okay. 

11 (A portion of the video was played.) 

12 Q So I paused at 30:19 as you said, 

13 there they are in the video. Do you see them? 

14 A If I would have been commenting that 

15 I see them visually but I don't see them on the 

16 video screen at all. 

17 Q I'll keep playing. 

18 (A portion of the video was played.) 

19 Q And I don't know if this is what you 

20 were seeing, but this one here? 

21 A 

22 the screen. 

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More than one in the lower portion of 

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1 Q I'll keep playing. Let me back up. 

2 I'm at 30:22. 

3 (A portion of the video was played.) 

4 Q Let me back this up a little bit and 

5 maybe you could, as we -- as I go through it, 

6 tell me to pause if you think you see something 

7 that's helpful. Let me go back to about 3 0 . 

8 Okay. So I'm starting at 30:01. 

9 (A portion of the video was played.) 

10 A So just as you said earlier, more than 

11 likely that first canopy in the slightly broken 

12 area of the overcast layer is what I was 

13 commenting on. 

14 Q Okay. 

15 A And as you keep playing it you'll see 

16 that more and more canopies appear underneath the 

17 clouds. 

18 Q So you you talked before about 

19 whether you were seeing them visually or through 

20 the camera. I don't recall your comment here. 

21 I'm sorry, let me -- let me go back just a little 

22 bit again. I'm going back to 30 again. 

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1 (A portion of the video was played.) 

2 Q So there you said, there they are, 

3 they're going through those clouds over there. 

4 And I paused at 30:22. Can you correlate to what 

5 you may be seeing visually with your eyes and 

6 what we're seeing on the video? 

7 A Right. So I'm not exactly at a zero 

8 degrees here, I'm probably at about 20, 25 

9 degrees angle. And even though the camera 

10 doesn't pick it up quite as well as I may have it 

11 appeared that to me that the tandem came 

12 through the cloud. And the reason why there's 

13 any blue sky behind it is because of the angle 

14 that I'm at. 

15 As you continue to play the video 

16 you'll see that it appeared the jump run was 

17 coming towards me, coming towards the camera and 

18 that more and more skydivers will start to appear 

19 directly underneath the clouds which are in the 

20 rest of the screen. 

21 Q Okay. Go ahead and tell me where to 

22 pause if you --

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1 (A portion of the video was played.) 

2 Q Was that 

3 A Starting to appear there. 

4 (A portion of the video was played.) 

5 A Okay. If you pause it --

6 Q Yeah. 

7 A So now there is two more parachutes at 

8 least that I can see right now. One is beginning 

9 to look like it -- the canopy pilot pulled above 

10 the cloud layer and is trying to fly around it 

11 and that's on the left side of the screen. 

12 Q Left side. Can you be more specific? 

13 A Left side, right there. Yeah. 

14 Q Okay. So that's 

15 A And that looks like it was the canopy 

16 that pulled above the cloud and is now trying to 

17 fly around it. 

18 Q Okay. So that's in the bottom left --

19 A Bottom left quadrant of the screen. 

20 And in the upper area of the screen we'll see 

21 another parachute that was directly more 

22 closely being directly above me and that 

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1 parachute appears to have appeared underneath the 

2 cloud which would have more than likely mean that 

3 that parachute was going through the cloud. 

4 Q This one here? 

5 A Yes, that is the parachute I'm talking 

6 about. 

7 Q Okay. And again, we're at 30:42 and 

8 this is near the top of the screen just to the 

9 left of center. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: And Mr. Bobertz, that 

11 was at 30:42, you said? And may I just remind 

12 you, I still haven't objected yet, but I'm not 

13 going to consider when he says it's more than 

14 1 ikely the person went through the cloud. I 

15 mean, I'm not offering to use just his opinion 

16 about what happened here. 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: I understand. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

19 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

20 Q So I'm at 30:42, I'm going to 

21 continue. 

22 (A portion of the video was played.) 

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1 A And if you pause the video here --

2 Q Okay. 

3 A -- you'll see two --

4 Q I'm sorry. I'm at 30:56. 

5 A You'll see two canopies near the 

6 bottom center of the screen. 

7 Q Just right of center? 

8 A Right, just right of center. 

9 Q Okay. 

10 A Those are the two I'm talking about 

11 and it appears that they are under the cloud. 

12 Q So it appears they're under the cloud. 

13 Did you do you recall if you saw them going 

14 through the cloud? Do you want me to back up the 

15 video a little bit or --

16 A I don't -- I mean, I don't remember 

17 exactly. I mean, it was two years ago. 

18 Q Yeah. 

19 A But from the video and from what I can 

20 recall, I believe those canopies pulled, they 

21 deployed their parachutes above the cloud and 

22 then flew through that layer and then are now in 

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1 the bottom side. 

2 Q Okay. 

3 MR. FELDMAN: I object to that. 

4 That's just speculation if he doesn't remember. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: I understand. I'll 

6 give it the weight I think necessary. The 

7 objection is sustained. 

8 MR. BOBERTZ: I do have one more but 

9 it's got several videos. One more exhibit with 

10 three videos on it. It's going to take a bit. I 

11 guess I could -- should I get through it or --

12 JUDGE RAWALD: I'd like to get through 

13 it. 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Let's go. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: We'll get through it. 

17 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

18 Q Okay. I'm going to Exhibit A-15, 

19 March 25th, 2014. I' 11 play this one for a 

20 couple minutes essentially from the beginning. 

21 (A portion of the video was played.) 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Did you hear that on the video? 

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1 A Yes. That was Gee Benal asking the 

2 pilot of the Caravan, of his Caravan to switch 

3 over to the company frequency. 

4 Q Okay. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: And that was at 00:17? 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: And that was at 00:17. 

7 Thank you. 

8 (A portion of the video was played.) 

9 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

10 Q Right. So I paused at 00:35. Can you 

11 describe what we're seeing? 

12 A So that was my first visual of the --

13 of a tandem parachute opening, I believe. And I 

14 also said that I didn't hear a jumpers away call. 

15 And because I think that Gee called the pilot 

16 over to a company frequency so he failed to make 

17 that call. 

18 Q Okay. 

19 (A portion of the video was played.) 

20 Q I went to 00:38. So when you said you 

21 could see the first one, I see I guess to the 

22 right bottom quadrant, it looks like a reddish 

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1 parachute, maybe? 

2 A Correct, red-orange parachute. 

3 Q And do you see anything else in here? 

4 A Where your mouse is, just to the left 

5 of that so that would be a parachute. 

6 Q Okay. I'll go a little further. 

7 (A portion of the video was played.) 

8 Q Do you see it yet? 

9 A I'm just starting to be able to see 

10 it, bottom center of the screen, right above the 

11 play button, a little bit more. Right there. 

12 Q Okay. So now at 00:59. Fairly the 

13 bottom third of the screen in the center, right 

14 there? 

15 A That should be another either tandem 

16 or split canopy. 

17 Q And I'll play a little bit longer. 

18 (A portion of the video was played.) 

19 Q I don't know if you can see that one 

20 above the cloud on the video. I'm at 01:06. And 

21 you just said you see one in the -- above the 

22 clouds. 

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1 A I don't think I see him quite yet. 

2 Q Let me go a little further. 

3 (A portion of the video was played.) 

4 A Okay. I see that one. 

5 (A portion of the video was played.) 

6 Q So you just -- I'm at 01:29. You say 

7 there's a guy coming through the clouds now? 

8 A So if you were to go back a couple of 

9 frames, just to the right of what you were 

10 pointing at, there was -- appeared to be a tandem 

11 canopy. 

12 Q Oh, the bird there? 

13 A I'm not sure what that is. 

14 Q Okay. Let me go back. Let me go back 

15 to 01:20. Okay. Playing again from 01:20. 

16 (A portion of the video was played.) 

17 A So if you pause it? 

18 Q Yeah, at 01:28. 

19 A And directly above the volume control 

20 in slightly broken area right there --

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. 

-- you can see that there's a tandem 

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1 canopy. And as we continue playing you'll see 

2 that that tandem canopy, again we'll lose visual 

3 with it because it's behind the cloud. 

4 (A portion of the video was played.) 

5 A Yep. As you pause the video 

6 Q Okay, I'm paused at 02:05. 

7 A So again, just above and to the right 

8 of the volume control you'll see several canopies 

9 beginning to appear. I believe that's what I was 

10 talking about in the video as more canopies 

11 coming through the cloud. 

12 Q Okay. So what you're saying is that 

13 -- I see -- you mentioned four canopies near the 

14 bottom just to the right of center. Are you 

15 saying all those were coming through the clouds? 

16 A Yes. I'm saying that based off of how 

17 everything's overcast and had visual on the 

18 aircraft on jump run and then they appeared below 

19 the clouds. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: At the 02:05. 

21 (A portion of the video was played.) 

22 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

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1 Q So I paused at 2:51 as you said in the 

2 video that there's another one coming out of the 

3 clouds. 

4 A So in between the two canopies that 

5 are easily visible, identified below them there 

6 appears to be another parachutist appearing below 

7 the cloud. 

8 Q So is that where I'm circling with the 

9 mouse? 

10 A Yes, that's where you're circling with 

11 the mouse. 

12 Q So that would be kind of like if those 

13 other two obvious ones are the eyes, that would 

14 be like the nose or mouth or something? 

15 A Right, it would be the nose. 

16 Q Right. 

17 (A portion of the video was played.) 

18 Q Okay. I'm going to stop this one here 

19 at 3:40. I'm going to go play until about 3:50. 

20 (A portion of the video was played.) 

21 Q Okay. All right. Now we're going to 

22 go to still Exhibit A-15, March 25th at 6:50 on 

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1 the video. 

2 (A portion of the video was played.) 

3 Q Let me go back up a little bit. I 

4 missed what she said. 

5 (A portion of the video was played.) 

6 Q So I just -- at 6:50 and you said on 

7 the video no jumpers away call? 

8 A Yes. I was describing what I thought 

9 was the beginning of a pattern of Pacific's 

10 aircraft dropping skydivers without making the 

11 jumpers away call on the unicorn frequency. 

12 Q Okay. I'm going to keep playing from 

13 here. 

14 (A portion of the video was played. ) 

15 Q So I paused at 07:11. Tell me what 

16 you were just describing? 

17 A So generally you can hear canopies 

18 opening, it's called the opening shot, even on 

19 the ground as long as it's not too windy or too 

20 noisy you can pick up a parachute opening up 3000 

21 or 4000 feet above ground level. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

So that's what you're describing? 

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1 A That's what I was describing. Because 

2 I was not seeing the parachutes or the people in 

3 free fall coming through the cloud or below the 

4 cloud and I could audibly hear that parachutes 

5 were opening but I could not see them. 

6 Q Could you see the aircraft? 

7 A No, the sky was too overcast to be 

8 able to see a jump run. 

9 Q Okay. So I'm at 07:11 and I'm going 

10 to continue playing. 

11 (A portion of the video was played.) 

12 Q So I paused at 07:42. Can you 

13 describe what we're seeing? 

14 A So now I'm starting to see the first 

15 canopies appear below the cloud. They are in the 

16 upper left more close to the center of the screen 

17 and you're that's one of them. And then that 

18 orange is the second one. 

19 Q 

20 A 

21 this time. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. Is that all so far? 

That's all that I see on the screen at 

Okay. I'll keep playing from 07:42. 

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1 (A portion of the video was played.} 

2 A And now I see two if not three more 

3 canopies appearing below the cloud. 

4 Q Is that in pretty much the center to 

5 right center? 

6 A Yeah, just a little bit to the right. 

7 Those are two and then just to the right, yes. 

8 Q Right there? Okay. 

9 So continuing to play from 07:45. 

10 (A portion of the video was played.} 

11 A And as you pause it and in the upper 

12 right corner you can see that that -- a tandem 

13 canopy just appeared below the cloud. 

14 Q So I'm at 08:04. And in the right top 

15 quadrant is what Mr. Hinshaw is describing. 

16 So continuing to play from 08:04. 

17 (A portion of the video was played.} 

18 Q So 08:37, I just paused it. Can you 

19 describe what we were just hearing or you were 

20 just starting to comment on on the video? 

21 A So although I didn't hear Nine-Bravo22 Whiskey make a jumpers away call I did hear him 

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1 just say that all jumpers are away. 

2 Q Thank you. 

3 And I'm going to go to 09:31. And 

4 playing. 

5 (A portion of the video was played.) 

6 Q Do you want me to keep going or zoom 

7 now or --

8 A Oh, I see one of the canopies right 

9 now. 

10 Q Okay. 

11 A I think if you play a little bit 

12 further the other one will appear. 

13 Q Okay. So I'm at 09:37. 

14 A And as you pause it then now the other 

15 canopy has appeared from above the cloud. 

16 Q So I'm at 09:39. And this is what 

17 you're referring to? 

18 A That is the object that appeared and 

19 it appears to be a parachute. 

20 Q So just left and lower of center is an 

21 obscured parachute. 

22 (Brief pause. ) 

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1 Q Okay. Let me go to the third jump 

2 that Mr. Hinshaw filmed on that day, on March 

3 25th. So Exhibit A-15 and I'm going to go to --

4 I'm going to start about 13 minutes. And hitting 

5 play at 13 minutes. 

6 (A portion of the video was played. ) 

7 Q So paused at 13:18 when in the video 

8 you said you had visual contact on the plane. I 

9 don't see if, I don't know if you do. 

10 A I don't quite see it yet. 

11 Q Okay. I'll keep playing from 13:18. 

12 (A portion of the video was played.) 

13 A Yeah, there it is. 

14 Q So I'm at 13:46. Can you describe 

15 what you were just talking about? 

16 A So I was watching jumpers in free fall 

17 exit from the aircraft right on the edge of this 

18 cloud that's in the center of the frame. And I 

19 momentarily observed the pair being obscured by 

20 the cloud and then reappearing and then deploying 

21 their parachute. And one of the parachutes is 

22 visible now in the frame, the lower bamboos plane 

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1 is pointing directly at him. 

2 Q Is that where I'm circling with the 

3 mouse? 

4 A And that is where you're circling with 

5 the mouse. 

6 Q So it's just bottom third of the 

7 screen near center, just by the center, and 

8 paused at 13:26. I'll continue. 

9 (A portion of the video was played.) 

10 Q So I'm paused now at 14:00. Can you 

11 describe do you see what you were talking 

12 about in the video? You said, I think, two more 

13 were coming out? 

14 A Yes. I just now started to see it, 

15 almost in the center of the frame, just below the 

16 break. Yes, right there. 

17 Q So I see one. Did you say that you 

18 see another? 

19 A I was seeing probably the tandem and 

20 the videographer, I think they're still in free 

21 fall so the camera has a hard time picking up 

22 people in free fall. 

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1 Q Okay. I'll play-- I'll play a little 

2 bit more. 

3 (A portion of the video was played.) 

4 Q So now I paused at 14: 09. Can you 

5 describe what you were just talking about? 

6 A Okay. So what I'm seeing now is the 

7 tandem canopy which is above and directly below 

8 the cloud now. And that first canopy we saw was 

9 the videographer, I believe. 

10 Q Okay. And did this one come through 

11 the cloud, the one up towards the top, just right 

12 of center? 

13 A I believe so. The -- what we saw 

14 earlier was actually the videographer as he 

15 appeared below the cloud. The videographers take 

16 a slight delay from the tandems to give them 

17 vertical separation. And so he pulled maybe 1000 

18 feet below that tandem canopy and just appeared. 

19 Q Okay. And I'll continue to play from 

20 14:09. 

21 (A portion of the video was played.) 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

So I'm now paused at 14:20. 

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1 describe what we're seeing? 

2 A So I saw this canopy now opening 

3 beneath the cloud and I'm moving the camera to 

4 try to frame it. And it's almost in the exact 

5 middle of the frame. 

6 Q And I'm paused at 14:20. So did you 

7 say -- let me back up to see what you said. 

8 (A portion of the video was played.) 

9 Q So I don't know if you could comment 

10 on this from the video or from your memory about 

11 this one being in the clouds or not? 

12 A So again, what I think -- what I think 

13 occurred is the tandem may have pulled above the 

14 cloud, and the videographer, as he fell away for 

15 about 1000 feet or so pulled below the cloud. So 

16 these tandem pairs should begin to appear below 

17 the cloud within the next minute. 

18 Q Okay. So I've been playing from 14:20 

19 there. 

20 (A portion of the video was played.) 

21 Q I stopped at 14:23. Is this what 

22 you're talking about, maybe the tandem almost 

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1 center, just left of center? 

2 A Yes, that's another parachute. It's 

3 difficult at this time to differentiate between 

4 the tandem or another videographer, the distance 

5 between the first two pairs and this third pair 

6 are a little bit spaced further apart. So it 

7 could be that that's also another videographer 

8 and the tandems are still above the cloud. 

9 Q So we're at 14:23. I'm going to 

10 continue. 

11 (A portion of the video was played.) 

12 Q So I don't know, are you still talking 

13 about the same guy we were just looking at? I'm 

14 at 14:26. 

15 A It may be possible I'm talking about 

16 the same guy but I think I might be seeing a 

17 canopy begin to emerge from behind the cloud. 

18 Q Okay. I'm going to keep playing from 

19 14:26. 

20 (A portion of the video was played.) 

21 A And if you pause it. So those are two 

22 more canopies that just appeared. 

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1 Q These two on the left here? 

2 A Right beneat the cloud. 

3 Q Okay. So based on that what's your 

4 conclusion about being in the clouds or not? 

5 A My conclusion that this guy, being in 

6 an overcast position, the position of the first 

7 jumper and subsequent jumpers on that jump run, 

8 there was no way for them to jump through a clear 

9 area of sky. 

10 Q You know about what angle you were 

11 filming at here? 

12 MR. FELDMAN: I object to conclusions. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, I understand. 

14 That's certainly expert language. I mean, he's a 

15 lay witness talking about what he saw. His 

16 conclusion, it sounds too accurate for me. I'm 

17 going to give it the weight that it merits and 

18 the objection is sustained. 

19 THE WITNESS: So the angle I'm 

20 approximately looking at right now, it should be 

21 directly straight up. And the bamboo plant aids 

22 in that. 

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1 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

2 Q How so? 

3 A The bamboo plant grows pretty much 

4 straight up. That's Skydive Hawaii and although 

5 that stem may not still be there, the bamboo 

6 plant is still present at Skydive Hawaii and 

7 almost all the bamboo grows very straight up. 

8 Q Okay. Thank you. 

9 I'm at 14:43. Let me just continue. 

10 I'll stop or tell me if you want me to stop. 

11 (A portion of the video was played.) 

12 Q I don't know if you can see it yet, I 

13 just paused at 14:57. 

14 A I may not be able to see it yet. I 

15 think it may be in the center of the screen. I 

16 was describing that I could see the shadows of 

17 the parachutes on the clouds so the sun would be 

18 above the parachutes and the parachutes would be 

19 above the clouds. 

20 Q Okay. Tell me if and when you see 

21 them. 

22 (A portion of the video was played.) 

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1 Q Can you -- anything you can see that 

2 you can describe at 15·: 07? 

3 A Right now that canopy is not quite 

4 visible yet but I do see a small parachute on the 

5 bottom just to the right, to the right, sorry, 

6 down lower. 

7 Q Oh, okay. 

8 A There's a canopy there. And then also 

9 in that area that you were just at, that may also 

1 o be a canopy. 

11 (A portion of the video was played.) 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: One moment, Your Honor, 

13 if I may. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

15 (Brief pause.) 

16 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

17 Q So Mr. Hinshaw, can you describe the 

18 tell me about the operations at Dillingham and 

19 how -- is there a prevailing wind normally? 

20 A So jump operations at Dillingham are 

21 for the most part consistent. The prevailing 

22 winds are usually out of the north, northeast, 

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1 anywhere between 10 to 20 miles per hour. 

2 Aircraft, there's only one runway in use at 

3 Dillingham Airfield by the general aviation 

4 community and that's runway 8, runway 2-6, 

5 generally because the prevailing winds aircraft 

6 will depart from runway 8 and then make a left 

7 turn over the water due to noise abatement. 

8 After that the aircraft will continue 

9 to climb along the north shore until reaching 

10 jump altitude. This differs between company. On 

11 the lowest end it's 8000 feet, on the highest end 

12 they can go up to 25,000 feet. And generally 

13 jump run is into the direction of the prevailing 

14 wind. So along the shoreline eastbound there's a 

15 typical jump run. 

16 Q So I brought up Exhibit A-56-001, a 

17 Google Earth photo showing that general area of 

18 the airport off to the left. And you said -- so 

19 this is oriented to the north and you mentioned 

20 the winds, prevailing winds are from? 

21 A 

22 \ 

(202) 234-4433 

Are from the east and the northeast. 

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1 Q So basically going down the coastline 

2 from right to left? 

3 A Right. So in this picture it would be 

4 going down the coastline from where it says 

5 Skydive Hawaii to Waialua. 

6 Q And where is Waialua? 

7 A Waialua is on the right side of the 

8 picture, kind of in the center. It's the town--

9 Q Oh, got you. Go I'm sorry, maybe 

10 I got confused. Between are the winds going 

11 from Skydive Hawaii towards Waialua or the 

12 opposite? 

13 A The opposite. They'd be coming from 

14 Waialua, Mokeleia heading towards the airport. 

15 Q Okay. And you mentioned normally they 

16 take off runway 8. Can you describe runway 8 

17 looking at the picture of the airport there? 

18 A So the runways are aligned to a 

19 magnetic compass. So runway 8 would be a heading 

20 of 080 magnetic. It is on the left-hand side of 

21 the screen in the center, the far end of the 

22 runway where the airplane icon is. 

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1 Q Okay. And the where would the 

2 jumpers on a normal day exit the aircraft? 

3 A Depending on the strength of the wind 

4 most jumpers have a spot directly over the top or 

5 about a quarter mile east of the primary landing 

6 area. And depending on how many people are in a 

7 load and the load organizer, that can extend for 

8 a mile and a half, two miles to the east. 

9 Q Okay. Earlier in one of the videos we 

10 saw a hang glider and we talked a little bit 

11 about hang gliders and potential conflicts with 

12 the hang gliders and skydivers. Are there other 

13 potential hazards in the area between skydivers 

14 and other things? 

15 A For Dillingham Airfield, for 

16 uncontrolled, untowered airport, actually it has 

17 a lot of general aviation activity as well as 

18 military activity. Other than the other 

19 skydivers and the gliders there are just general 

20 aviation pilots and users. There's ultralight 

21 pilots. There are Marine Corps helicopters and 

22 occasionally there are some heavy aircraft that 

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1 pass through the area. Mostly, though, they 

2 would be Air Force C17s or C130s. 

3 Q So what's the danger of skydiving 

4 through the clouds in those types of 

5 circumstances, those operations? 

6 A Well, the skydivers don't generally 

7 have any instrumentation to rely on other than 

8 their altimeter. And if you don't have visual 

9 reference or visual of the ground you may not 

10 know where you are. You don't know what's below 

11 the cloud, there could be aircraft below or in 

12 the cloud. There could be helicopters and there 

13 could easily also be other skydivers who may be 

14 under your jump run. All these things are 

15 dangers. 

16 And add to that there are also 4000 

17 foot mountains, the peaks of which can be below 

18 an overcast layer. And also the Pacific Ocean to 

19 the north and to the west is a major hazard. If 

20 you don't know where you are you could end up in 

21 the water or control flight into the mountains or 

22 into another aircraft. 

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1 Q Thank you, Mr. Hinshaw. 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: No further questions. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Let's go ahead 

4 and go off the record and come back at 2:45 to 

5 resume with cross examination. 

6 (A short break was taken. ) 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: We can go ahead and go 

8 on the record. 

9 You can sit down Mr. Hinshaw. Mr. 

10 Hinshaw, I remind you that you are still under 

11 oath. 

12 Whenever you're ready, Mr. Feldman. 

13 MR. FELDMAN: I printed this one out, 

14 Your Honor. This is R-23. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

16 (Brief pause.) 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Do you want it 

18 displayed on the screen too or no? 

19 MR. FELDMAN: What's that? 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Do you want to put it 

21 on the screen or you just want to --

22 MR. FELDMAN: No, I'm going to put the 

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1 videos on the screen. But yeah, we could put it 

2 on the screen now. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. The computer's 

4 on. 

5 (Brief pause.) 

6 CROSS EXAMINATION 

7 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

8 Q Mr. Hinshaw, we met before, I'm Robert 

9 Feldman. I represent the Respondent in the 

10 hearing, Pacific Skydiving. 

11 I'd like you to look at what I gave 

12 you and it's Exhibit R-23, and ask if you 

13 recognize what it is. 

14 A (Reviewing the document.) It appears 

15 to be copies of Skydi ve Hawaii ' s web page from 

16 several years ago. 

17 Q Okay. I'd like you to look at it and 

18 let me know if any of the language in there is 

19 incorrect as to your operations. 

20 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, counsel, what are 

22 you trying to get to here? 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: I'm getting at 

2 representations made about their operations in 

3 there to show standards in the industry. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: I don't understand, 

5 sir. 

6 MR. FELDMAN: Well --

7 JUDGE RAWALD : The operation is not 

8 going to show the standards. Your expert can 

9 talk about standards in the industry. So I'll 

10 allow that from both sides. But one of the 

11 industry 

12 MR. FELDMAN: Well, let me just ask 

13 him --

14 JUDGE RAWALD: Sir, one of the 

15 company's practices is not going to establish a 

16 standard. What's at issue here is whether 

17 Pacific has allowed folks to skydive through 

18 clouds. How is this relevant to that? 

19 MR. FELDMAN: The business 

20 relationship between the people who are 

21 conducting the parachute jumping business. 

22 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

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1 Q And I note in here that you state that 

2 your staff is largely independent contractors and 

3 USPA licensed professional tandem instructors. 

4 It's on the first page. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD : Right. So counsel, 

7 once again, the fact that his people are possibly 

8 contractors is not relevant to other people that 

9 Mr. Benal employs as contractors. What's 

10 important is whether his people were contractors 

11 and under the law, whether that means Mr. Benal's 

12 company would be liable if, indeed, they went 

13 through the clouds in that jump. But Skydive 

14 Hawaii employees are not relevant so I'm not 

15 going to allow it, sir. 

16 MR. FELDMAN: So Your Honor is saying 

17 the industry standard is not important? 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: This is not industry 

19 standards, sir. You're showing the material from 

20 one of the practice. You have experts on both 

21 sides here that can discuss industry standards 

22 and that's going to be completely allowable. 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. The 

3 objection is sustained. 

4 MR. FELDMAN: I'll withdraw that. 

5 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

6 Q Now in your declarations you stated in 

7 each one that you have personal knowledge of the 

8 facts in the declaration, is that correct? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q And that you could competently testify 

11 what you had written about what you had 

12 written in the declaration? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q And that under perjury, a declaration 

15 under perjury, that you declare that the 

16 foregoing is true and correct, is that correct? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q And you state that the videos are fair 

19 and accurate representations of what you saw? 

20 A I believe so, yes. 

21 Q Now when you were observing these 

22 jumpers, is it your testimony that they were 

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1 opening directly above you on these jumps? 

2 A Almost all of them were directly above 

3 me, or at least one portion of the jump run was 

4 directly above me. 

5 Q One point of the jump run or the 

6 jumpers ' openings? I didn't understand. You 

7 just 

8 A Oh, the jump run from the period that 

9 the skydivers exited the aircraft until the last 

10 skydiver exited the aircraft. 

11 Q Okay. But in that in the videos 

12 you have of the openings that you show, is it 

13 your testimony that they're directly above you or 

14 are they at an angle? 

15 A They are directly above me within 

16 about a 30 to 35 degree cone. 

17 Q And at what altitude do tandem jumpers 

18 typically open? 

19 A That depends on the tandem instructor. 

20 But as far as I know, as a tandem instructor 

21 myself, anywhere between 4500 to 5500 feet. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. So if we see an opening, that 

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1 would be at 4500 to 5500 feet? 

2 A Well, that depends on the individual 

3 skydiver and what he or she decided what 

4 altitude he or she decided to deploy the 

5 parachute. 

6 Q Okay. Are you familiar with Sigma 

7 Tandem equipment? 

8 A I'm familiar but I'm not an expert on 

9 it. 

10 Q Are you does your operation use 

11 Sigma Tandem equipment? 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Counsel, where are you 

14 going with this? 

15 MR. FELDMAN: I'm going to try to 

16 determine altitudes and what he knows about 

17 opening altitudes of the tandem equipment. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. So it goes to 

19 the credibility of the statements regarding the 

20 fact that they opened above the clouds? 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. FELDMAN: I'm sorry? 

JUDGE RAWALD: So you're attacking the 

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1 credibility of the statements about whether they 

2 were opening above the clouds or not? 

3 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. I'll allow it. 

5 The objection is overruled. 

6 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the 

7 question? 

8 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

9 Q Yes. Are you familiar -- are you a 

10 tandem instructor? 

11 A I am a tandem instructor however I let 

12 my I let my rating lapse in 2015. 

13 Q And was that on Sigma equipment? 

14 A Yes. I was qualified on Sigmas. 

15 Q So you received instruction on how to 

16 use Sigma Tandem parachute equipment? 

17 A Yes, in 2009. 

18 Q And that's made by United Parachute 

19 Technologies, correct? Or Relative Workshop at 

20 the time maybe? 

21 A 

22 correct. 

(202) 234-4433 

To the best of my knowledge, that's 

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1 Q And does the manufacturer mandate an 

2 opening altitude for its Sigma equipment in your 

3 experience? 

4 A The manufacturer does not mandate a 

5 specific altitude. However, I do remember that 

6 there were minimum altitudes. 

7 Q And what is that minimum altitude? 

8 A I don't know off the top of my head, 

9 I'm sorry. 

10 Q Would it be 4000 feet? But you don't 

11 know at all, correct? 

12 A Well, I don't really recall but I know 

13 that my minimum deployment altitude was 4500 

14 feet, personally. 

15 Q And is there a device called an 

16 automatic activation device to deploy the reserve 

17 at a certain altitude if the -- if you're still 

18 falling at a certain velocity, too fast to land 

19 safely? 

20 A There should be, yes. 

21 Q And do you know what altitude that's 

22 set to activate? 

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1 A Not off the top of my head, sorry. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Benal, there should 

3 be some water in those pitchers right there if 

4 you need some for your cough. 

5 MR. BENAL: This isn't -- I have a 

6 cold. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Oh, okay. 

8 MR. BENAL: But I appreciate it. 

9 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

10 Q And on a typical day at Dillingham 

11 Airfield, are there multiple layers of winds? 

12 A Typically well, the meteorology 

13 changes and is variable. However, I believe it's 

14 NOA who puts out the winds aloft and they 

15 separate it into different altitudes. 

16 Q Can they be blowing in different 

17 directions? 

18 A That is possible. 

19 Q Do they blow at different velocities? 

20 A That is possible. 

21 Q So the ground wind would not be 

22 indicative of the wind that -- at jump altitude, 

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1 correct? 

2 A It may or may not be. But generally 

3 whatever the air speed and the direction on the 

4 ground, it may or may not affect the air speed 

5 and direction in upper layers of wind. 

6 Q And if you at what altitude to 

7 tandems typically exit the aircraft? 

8 A Well, that depends on the operator. 

9 I know that we typically at Skydive Hawaii, when 

10 I was a tandem instructor, we'd be heading out 

11 anywhere between 10 to 12, 14,000 feet up to 

12 25,000 feet. 

13 Q Would you say that ballpark and 

14 average altitude would be 14,000 feet? 

15 A I'd say ballpark would be about 12,000 

16 feet for the average. 

17 Q And so how long is the free fall until 

18 the parachute is opened on a 12,000 exit 

19 altitude? 

20 A That's dependent on the weight, the 

21 combined weight of the passenger and the tandem 

22 instructor. It also depends on the surface area 

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1 that they present to a relative wind. And also 

2 depends on what altitude that the tandem 

3 instructor decides to deploy the parachute 

4 system. 

5 Q Well, typically, if they were to 

6 deploy at 4500 feet, exiting at 14,000 feet, how 

7 long would that free fall be, if you know? 

8 A On average they -- you know, generally 

9 a free fall, except for the first 1000 feet. The 

10 first 1000 feet, because you're exiting the 

11 aircraft and you've not reached terminal 

12 velocity, generally takes about ten seconds and 

13 every 1000 feet thereafter takes about six 

14 seconds to go through. But again, this is very 

15 dependent on the weight and the surface area of 

16 the tandem pair. 

17 Q So you can't give us a ballpark figure 

18 for like 45 seconds or 60 seconds for a free 

19 fall? 

20 A I don't think it would be fair to do 

21 so because there's too many variables involved 

22 for me to say that, you know, 45 seconds or 60 

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1 seconds or any amount of time is what's going to 

2 happen. 

3 Q Okay. In the exhibit that I gave you, 

4 R-23, there's a statement made that the ultimate 

5 14,000 foot other than 20,000 foot, and it goes 

6 on to the price. It says, just make a 

7 reservation, after you arrive let our cashier 

8 know you want 14,000 feet guaranteed. The 

9 ultimate 14,000 feet provides 12 seconds more 

10 free fall than 12,000 tandem skydive, 12,000 foot 

11 tandem skydive. 

12 So you're saying that there's, from 

13 2000 feet, it takes 12 seconds so that would be 

14 6000 feet? 

15 A I'm sorry, I'm confused. 

16 Q The second page. The --

17 A I'm on the second page. 

18 Q The ultimate 14,000 foot is where it 

19 begins. 

20 A So you're saying the ultimate 14,000 

21 foot and then other than 20,000 foot. 

22 Q So 

(202) 234-4433 

two second in 12 

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seconds you 

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1 fall 2000 feet, correct? 

2 A Well, that's what it says here. 

3 However, I don't have personal knowledge of what 

4 was written on -- what's written here. I didn't 

5 have a hand in writing this. 

6 Q Who wrote this? 

7 A I'm not sure. You'd have to ask the 

8 president of Skydive Hawaii. 

9 Q And who's that? 

10 A That would be Frank Hinshaw, my 

11 father. 

12 Q Now were there multiple cloud layers 

13 shown in the videos that you saw today? 

14 A Which video of which day are you 

15 talking about? 

16 Q Well, let's go to the first one. This 

17 is A-5. 

18 A Okay. 

19 Q And for this I'll just speed it up to 

20 go through it. 

21 (A portion of the video was played.) 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

so I can already tell on this video 

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1 that there appears to only be one layer of clouds 

2 that I can see directly above. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, we're starting 

4 from 02:35. 

5 MR. FELDMAN: Yeah, let's wait until 

6 the aircraft goes up. And I'll leave the sound 

7 off because we don't need it. 

8 (A portion of the video was played.) 

9 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

10 Q Are you saying there's just one layer 

11 here? 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, you've 

13 paused it at the 03:13 into the video on Exhibit 

14 A-5. 

15 THE WITNESS: It appeared to me that 

16 there was only one layer of clouds in this video. 

17 At least directly -- in the area that the jump 

18 run occurs. 

19 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

20 Q Okay. So let's go to 03:30 in. A 

21 little beyond that. 

22 (A portion of the video was played.) 

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1 Q Is that one layer? 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: You're looking at 

3 03:27. 

4 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

5 Q We're looking at 03:27 into the video. 

6 A It appears to me to be one layer. 

7 However, because this layer is mostly overcast 

8 you have no way of knowing what could be above 

9 it, from the ground anyway. 

10 Q Okay. And looking at 03:59:27 in, 

11 does that appear to be one layer or does there 

12 appear to be lower scattered clouds below the 

13 more over -- the more broken layer? 

14 A The cloud layer appears to me from the 

15 video and from what I can recall, it appears to 

16 be one layer. It's not incredibly thick but 

17 there may be some variance in cloud heights and 

18 cloud bottoms along this layer. 

19 (A portion of the video was played.) 

20 Q So if there were a lower layer, would 

21 that block your view of what was above it? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Well, not necessarily. It depends on 

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1 what the lower layer is. If it's just, you know, 

2 cumulus passing through or if it's a stratus 

3 layer that's totally obscuring what's above it. 

4 But 

5 Q And if --

6 A Go ahead. Sorry. 

7 Q No, go ahead. Finish. 

8 A I was just saying that if there was a 

9 lower layer of clouds scattered you would be able 

10 to tell. Just like you said earlier, there's 

11 different levels of wind and the relative 

12 velocity of the clouds would give away that there 

13 are multiple layers. 

14 Q And here at 06:25:28 in Exhibit A-5, 

15 are those clouds at the bottom center, are they a 

16 lower layer compared to the clouds above it? 

17 A I believe it's the same layer of 

18 clouds how ever it may be thicker in that area. 

19 Q So that you're saying the area above 

20 that on the screen and to the left of that 

21 thicker area would be a thinner --

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

It's possible that, because the light 

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1 is coming through, that is a thinner area of the 

2 clouds. The darker areas are thicker areas of 

3 the cloud. 

4 Q Okay. So you're saying now that if 

5 there's a lighter if there's a lighter area 

6 where the sun comes through it's thinner clouds? 

7 A Generally that is my perception, a 

8 determination of the thickness of the clouds, a 

9 layer or an area of the cloud that is brighter or 

10 light shines through is typically thinner than an 

11 area of clouds that has enough thickness to block 

12 out the sun. 

13 Q And can you tell from the ground that 

14 someone above those thinner areas would be able 

15 to see the ground through those thinner clouds? 

16 A Generally depending on the thickness, 

17 if you can see blue sky above, if you can see 

18 through the clouds then there is a possibility 

19 that those clouds could be slightly translucent. 

20 However, they are still clouds. 

21 Q Let ' s go back to the beginning and 

22 I'll ask you to --

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1 (Brief pause.) 

2 Q Now if the angle would -- between your 

3 vantage point and where a jumper actually was 

4 when you videoed them was a greater angle than a 

5 ten degree vertical, would that affect your 

6 ability to determine the accuracy of what you 

7 were looking at with respect to what the -- where 

8 the jumper was? 

9 A It depends. It depends on if the 

10 cloud layer is overcast for miles, if it has 

11 breaks in it, if the cloud is just cumulonimbus 

12 sitting directly above the jump area. There are 

13 a lot of factors that can determine whether or 

14 not a violation occurs. However, like you said, 

15 I'm not an expert and I can't determine whether 

16 or not a violation occurs. That's up to the 

17 experts. 

18 Q I'm asking about whether you can 

19 determine whether or not a jumper is actually 

20 penetrating clouds if the angle were not as 

21 vertical as you claim it was. Would that affect 

22 your ability to determine where 

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1 jumper or not went through clouds? 

2 A Well, the distance -- the distance and 

3 the angle can have an effect on the viewer. 

4 However, given the extent of how large the area 

5 is that is overcast, it all depends on what the 

6 meteorology is at that time, whether or not an 

7 increased angle would or would not affect it. If 

8 it's overcast from Hawaii to Hawaii Island, it 

9 doesn't matter what angle you're at. 

10 Q But if there were broken spots in the 

11 cloud layer it would affect it, is that what 

12 you're saying? 

13 A Depending on the extent of that -- the 

14 break. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: I guess what Mr. 

16 Feldman's getting at is, depending on where 

17 you're standing and the angle you're looking at, 

18 is it possible that you could look up and think 

19 that someone' s going through a cloud when, in 

20 fact, they could be going through an opening, if 

21 your angle was such that it could allow that? Is 

22 that possible? 

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1 THE WITNESS: It's possible, Your 

2 Honor, but only in the circumstances that there 

3 are clear areas around the overcast area. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Sure, the broken cloud 

5 situation you described before. 

6 THE WITNESS: Right. And if there is 

7 a 2000 or 4000 break in those clouds to allow 

8 that individual jumper to go through without 

9 having a violation. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: All right. 

11 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

12 Q Does a jumper require 2000 or 4000 

13 feet to go through an opening on a parachute 

14 jump? Or is that just a different regulation 

15 with respect to what a jumper shouldn't do? 

16 A I'm sorry, I --can you rephrase that? 

17 Q Okay. The issue in this case is 

18 I'll represent to you is whether or not a 

19 jumper's jumped into or through a cloud. It's 

2 0 not whether or not they violated a -- the 2 0 0 0 

21 foot horizontal distance requirement from a 

22 cloud. 

(202) 234·4433 

So could a jumper descend through an 

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1 opening that was less than 2000 feet, 2000 feet 

2 away or 4000 feet overall width and appear to be 

3 going through a cloud when, in fact, they were 

4 going through a small opening in the clouds? 

5 A It would have to be quite far away. 

6 I would say an angle greater than 45 degrees, in 

7 my opinion. But that could be possible. 

8 Q When you say quite far away, what do 

9 you mean? 

10 A I would say probably greater than two 

11 miles from the vantage point. 

12 Q If they open at 4000 feet or 5000 feet 

13 they're already a mile away, correct? 

14 A That's correct. 

15 Q Okay. So if they were another mile 

16 away from you that would be two miles, correct? 

17 A That would be two miles. 

18 Q Now you have a lot of skydives, 

19 correct? 

20 A I only have about 3000. That's not a 

21 lot. It's not. 

22 Q 

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When a parachute opens, a square 

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1 parachute such as the ones you see in these 

2 videos, opens, does the parachute canopy surge 

3 forward? 

4 A That depends on the way you pack a 

5 parachute. They can be packed in many different 

6 ways. They can surge forward, they can stall, 

7 they can snivel. There are many scenarios that 

8 can occur when a parachute is deployed. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: I'm sorry, sir, if you 

10 could explain what the word snivel meant? 

11 THE WITNESS: Snivel is a co~dition 

12 where the parachute doesn't fully open but it 

13 creates drag so it's not an air flow yet but it 

14 is a drag device. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

16 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

17 Q But it eventually opens, correct? 

18 A Hopefully, yes. 

19 Q On a typical opening does the jumper 

20 swing behind the parachute canopy so that they're 

21 more face to earth at the moment that the canopy 

22 opens than they would be otherwise before that or 

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1 after that? 

2 A Is your question that, after 

3 deployment that the jumper are more face to 

4 earth? Or 

5 Q Are more face to earth for -- if you 

6 have a helmet camera on, okay, that camera 

7 normally points in front of you, correct? 

8 A It depends on where the videographer 

9 is pointing their head. But generally, yes, your 

10 subject is right in front of you. 

11 Q So you're looking ahead rather than 

12 straight down, correct? 

13 A Well, you're looking out towards the 

14 horizon instead of towards the earth. 

15 Q And at some point during the opening 

16 sequence does your body position change for a 

17 short time so that you're looking straighter down 

18 toward the earth rather than at the horizon? 

19 A Not necessarily, not in my experience. 

20 Q But that wouldn't surprise you if that 

21 were to happen? If we have videos of jumpers 

22 with helmet cameras involved in this case and at 

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1 some point they swing so that they're looking 

2 straighter down toward the earth rather than the 

3 horizon? 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Object on relevance. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD : Counsel, once again 

6 where are you going with this? 

7 MR. FELDMAN: I'm going to be 

8 determining where the jumpers actually opened 

9 from the video shots that the Administrator has 

10 provided that we are stipulating to in this case. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: This is not the proper 

12 witness for this, though. He's not testifying to 

13 that. He's offered his perspective from down 

14 below that people were falling through the 

15 clouds. You can question the credibility of that 

16 but asking him to opine about whether or not they 

17 -- about what this GoPro camera, let's say, you 

18 should really go with an expert who is properly 

19 qualified in this area. So I 'm not going to 

20 allow it. The objection is sustained. 

21 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

22 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

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1 Q Do you you stated that you 

2 witnessed and filmed numerous skydivers free 

3 falling and penetrating a broken to overcast 

4 layer, is that correct? 

5 A Without looking at my declaration, I 

6 believe that's correct. 

7 Q And jumpers would enter a cloud from 

8 above, not from below, is that correct? 

9 A In most in free fall more than 

10 likely they would enter from above. However, 

11 under canopy it's possible that they entered from 

12 horizontally. 

13 Q But you weren't in the air 1 were you? 

14 A When these videos were shot? 

15 Q Yes. 

16 A No. I was on the ground. 

17 Q Okay. So how did you observe a jumper 

18 penetrating the layer of clouds? 

19 A So like I said earlier, when you don't 

20 either don't have visual contact or you gain 

21 visual contact and lose visual contact of the 

22 aircraft on jump run, and then suddenly a bunch 

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1 of parachutes or skydivers appear below the cloud 

2 that you lost the visual contact of the aircraft 

3 and you're looking, for the most part, directly 

4 straight up, it's hard for me to imagine a 

5 situation where the skydiver could have got out 

6 of the aircraft, flew his body a mile or two 

7 away, flew back and then deployed their parachute 

8 underneath that cloud. It's almost physically 

9 I mean, it's physically impossible. 

10 Q Okay. But you -- I mean, you didn't 

11 actually witness any jumpers penetrating into a 

12 cloud? 

13 A I observed -- I observed jumpers from 

14 what I -- from my observation leaving an aircraft 

15 that was obscured by a cloud and then appearing 

16 from inside the cloud and then below the cloud. 

17 Q But you never saw them actually going 

18 into the cloud, correct? 

19 A No. That would require a view from 

20 above the cloud. 

21 Q Okay. Now are there areas of 

22 condensed water vapor or reduced visibility which 

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1 would appear to be clouds from the ground but 

2 which are actually a mist from a perspective of 

3 being in the air looking down at them toward the 

4 ground? 

5 A I don't think so. I don't think -- I 

6 don't think it can be described as mist. I don't 

7 know the exact meteorological term but I know 

8 that what comes to mind is a fractal which is --

9 it used to be part of a cloud but then has broken 

10 off and then become either a lighter layer or, 

11 you know, dissociate with the main cloud. I 

12 don't know if I mean, I don't know if you 

13 could call it mist or something else. But it's 

14 still a cloud. 

15 Q Do you have any professional 

16 experience editing video? 

17 A Professional I don't have any 

18 professional experience. However, I have edited 

19 videos as a hobby. 

20 Q 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

So it's more of an amateur experience? 

It's very amateur. 

And what's the focal length of the --

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1 do you know what focal length is? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Okay. Your camera goes from wide 

4 angle to telephoto, correct? 

5 A I don't even know if I can comment on 

6 those terms. 

7 Q Well, you -- it goes from a shot that 

8 encompasses a large area to a shot that 

9 encompasses a small area by pushing a button the 

10 camera, right? 

11 A I believe the camera --

12 Q A zoom? 

13 A The camera does have a digital zoom 

14 but I don't know what magnification it goes out 

15 to without looking at the camera itself. 

16 Q Were you zooming when you used this 

17 camera? 

18 A At certain times, yes. I did zoom in 

19 when I thought that I could show the alleged 

20 violations occurring clearer by zooming in. 

21 Q Was it -- did it -- were the skydivers 

22 easier to see when you zoomed in than when you 

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1 were on a zoom-out shot? 

2 A Well, that depends what do you mean by 

3 easier? Or what do you mean? 

4 Q Well, in some cases you couldn't see, 

5 could -- were there instances where you wouldn't 

6 see the skydivers when you were zoomed out in a 

7 wide shot but they appeared when you zoomed in on 

8 a telephoto shot? 

9 A I don't I believe after watching 

10 the video with just now and during this 

11 hearing, that the all the canopies I zoomed in 

12 on were visible before I zoomed in. 

13 Q And let's go to A-15. 

14 (Brief pause. ) 

15 Q And here we are at 07:55, and I'll 

16 play this. And it looks like you zoomed in the 

17 camera. 

18 (A portion of the video was played.) 

19 Q Now those jumpers weren't visible in 

20 the wide shot, were they? 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: So that was at eight 

22 minutes into the film. 

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1 THE WITNESS: Can you go back to the 

2 wide shot? 

3 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

4 Q Sure. 

5 (A portion of the video was played.) 

6 A I see them in the wide shot. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: So 07:55. 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Seven-fifty-five, okay. 

9 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

10 Q Now let's go forward. We see the two 

11 canopies there above the that's blue sky 

12 behind that darker area there, isn't it? 

13 A A very, very small area of blue sky, 

14 yes. 

15 Q Okay. Wait, wait, now look to the 

16 right here, to the right of those two canopies 

17 that you can see there, as you zoom in. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: That's at 07:58. 

19 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

20 Q We're going to zoom in, they just 

21 magically appear at eight seconds 

22 minutes in. You see them? 

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1 A And a few seconds before they were 

2 also visible before you claim that they were 

3 invisible. If you'll go back even further than 

4 when you're saying that they're invisible. If 

5 you keep looking at the area, slowly go back, 

6 you'll still be able to see them there. 

7 Q Can you see them there? That's 07:58. 

8 A I see at least one of them still being 

9 picked up by the camera. 

10 Q Okay. But as you go in they become 

11 apparent, correct? And they didn't come from 

12 behind the cloud, they came they appeared 

13 because you were zooming in, correct? They were 

14 always there in the shot, correct? 

15 A They were not always there in the shot 

16 and they appeared a few seconds before I zoomed 

17 in. 

18 Q Do you see them there at 07:58? 

19 A I don't see them right now, no. 

20 Q Okay. And as you go in, zooming in 

21 A Yeah. And before I zoomed I saw that 

22 at least one of the canopies appeared and then 

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1 the other canopy appeared. I don't believe it's 

2 because of me zooming in, I believe it's because 

3 they're coming from above the cloud or through 

4 the cloud. 

5 Q And there we are at 08:02 and they're 

6 clearly visible. And to the right of those 

7 canopies, is there a blue area? The right of the 

8 two canopies, next -- one above the other. Is 

9 there a blue area there? 

10 A Yes, but it's almost barely the size 

11 of one of those canopies. 

12 Q Okay. Now let's go to the start here. 

13 Do you have an aircraft whose tail number ends in 

14 F or Foxtrot? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q And what's the tail number for that 

17 aircraft? 

18 A It's not my aircraft, I apologize. 

19 It's not my aircraft but Skydive Hawaii does use 

20 an aircraft that ends in a tail number that has a 

21 Foxtrot at the end. 

22 Q 

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Now you took this video on March 25th, 

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1 2014. I'll start it from the beginning. And I 

2 want you to tell me if your aircraft is calling 

3 in that it's -- calling in on this video? 

4 (A portion of the video was played.) 

5 Q Is that your aircraft calling in? 

6 A Again, not my aircraft but it sounds 

7 like Five-Four-Foxtrot is saying that he's 

8 departing runway 2-6. 

9 Q And he's taking off for a skydiving 

10 operation? 

11 A More than likely, I would believe so. 

12 Q And you were shooting this video at 

13 this point to show that the conditions were too 

14 bad for skydiving, is that correct? 

15 A No. I was -- I was showing that the 

16 conditions were marginal and that Pacific's 

17 aircraft were in the air at the time, or 

18 departing. 

19 Q But this wasn't Pacific's aircraft 

20 departing, this was Skydive Hawaii's aircraft 

21 departing, correct? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

If you look at the --

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1 Q Or it's got the it's aircraft 

2 operated by Skydi ve Hawaii was departing, 

3 correct? 

4 A Well, if you look at the video, if you 

5 back up a few seconds and also look at what the 

6 sky looked like at the time, there was actually a 

7 very large clear area of clouds which may or may 

8 not have been a possibility for jump operations 

9 to occur. However, the fact that an aircraft 

10 departs an airport doesn't mean that aircraft is 

11 going to release jumpers. 

12 Q Precisely. So when you show video of 

13 Mr. Benal, Gee Benal helping an aircraft load up, 

14 that doesn't mean that they're going to drop 

15 jumpers, does it? 

16 A Not necessarily, no. 

17 Q And isn't don't the weather 

18 conditions change fairly rapidly at Dillingham 

19 Airfield? 

20 A Yes, they can change very rapidly. 

21 Q And how long does it take to get up to 

22 altitude before a parachute jump in the aircraft 

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1 that is typically used by you or by Pacific 

2 Skydiving there? 

3 A Well, if the aircraft is going to 8000 

4 feet it only takes about five, six, seven 

5 minutes. 

6 Q Okay. 

7 A Depending on how many people are in 

8 the aircraft, what the fuel weight is and a 

9 variety of other factors. 

10 Q And in these videos you shot, it 

11 typically was ten to fifteen minutes, was it not? 

12 Because you keep showing your watch from the time 

13 that 

14 A If that's what the video showed then 

15 that's -- then that's correct. 

16 Q And weather conditions can change 

17 drastically in that time, correct? 

18 A It's a possibility, yes. Meteorology 

19 can change at -- you know, at Dillingham Airfield 

20 within five to ten minutes. 

21 Q So if you want to accomplish jump 

22 operations you can't look up at the sky prior to 

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1 leaving the airport and decide that it's not 

2 going to be good by the time you get to altitude 

3 for a jump. Isn't the only way that you can 

4 determine that is going up and having a look-see 

5 to see whether or not conditions are fit for a 

6 jump operation when you to jump altitude? 

7 A No. 

8 Q Why not? 

9 A Well, you can -- it totally depends on 

10 the situation. You're asking me to make a 

11 blanket statement about everything and basically 

12 if you look up, the winds are light and variable, 

13 it's overcast, you, with a higher degree of 

14 certainty, can determine that that's what the 

15 conditions are going to persist as. If the 

16 conditions are, you know, 15 to 20 miles per hour 

17 and clouds coming from the east then that's more 

18 than likely what's going to persist throughout 

19 the day. I don't -- I can't say that you can't 

20 look up and determine whether or not the 

21 meteorological conditions are conducive or not to 

22 skydiving. 

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1 Q But in this particular case where 

2 November you said it was November-Foxtrot, 

3 your tail? 

4 A It should give Five-Four-Foxtrot. 

5 Q Five-Four-Foxtrot. When it was taking 

6 off the conditions could be very different by the 

7 time it got to jump altitude, correct? 

8 A That's right. But that's the risk 

9 that an operator takes when they, you know, 

10 decide to send their aircraft up. 

11 Q So let's let this play a little bit. 

12 (A portion of the video was played.) 

13 Q Now there, which direction are you 

14 looking? 

15 A I'm looking almost straight up but a 

16 little bit to the west, northwest. 

17 Q Okay. That's not where the typical 

18 exit point for jumpers is, is it? 

19 A I don't recall exactly what the 

20 weather you know, what the wind direction and 

21 speed was this day. But no, it's not typically 

22 a place where you want to jump out. 

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1 Q It's more to the east because of the 

2 prevailing winds are from the east, correct? 

3 A If the prevailing winds were present 

4 that day. 

5 (A portion of the video was played.) 

6 A And can I make a note real quick? 

7 Q Sure. 

8 A Since Five-Four-Foxtrot was departing 

9 from runway 2-6, that's usually indicative that 

10 the winds were coming out of the west instead of 

11 departing from runway 8. That means because 

12 generally you want the aircraft to take off into 

13 the wind. 

14 Q Okay. Well, let's see where they get 

15 out here. This is the sky at the time the skydive 

16 aircraft was departing for the purpose of making 

17 skydives. Does that look like a sky that's 

18 conducive for skydiving? 

19 

20 the video. 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD: This is at 24:00 into 

MR. FELDMAN: This is 00:24 

JUDGE RAWALD: Or seconds. Seconds. 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: seconds into the 

2 video. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

4 THE WITNESS: And this is slightly 

5 east of the primary landing area that I'm looking 

6 at. And it looks like an overcast layer and it 

7 would not -- in my opinion would not be wise to 

8 do jump operations with that there. 

9 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

10 Q But your aircraft was taking off 

11 anyway, correct? 

12 A Right. From runway 2-6 because more 

13 than likely the winds were out of the west and 

14 there might have been a possibility that they 

15 could jump from the west and landed at the 

16 primary landing area. 

17 (A portion of the video was played.) 

18 Q Where are they getting out, east or 

19 west of the airport? 

20 A It looks like they're just slightly 

21 west but not too far from the primary landing 

22 area. And that's the first group that got out. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD : What is that, 00:36 

2 into --

3 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

4 Q This is 00:36 into the video. And you 

5 say that's west? 

6 A But not very far. It would be in 

7 between the end of the inactive runway and the 2-

8 6, just judging it based off the footage and the 

9 angle. 

10 Q Okay. Let's watch it in slow motion 

11 here. 

12 (A portion of the video was played.) 

13 Q Can you identify which direction that 

14 is by the palm tree there? 

15 A Yes, I'm looking slightly to the east. 

16 Q And now the camera's -- it looks like 

17 it's going up. 

18 A Straight up. 

19 Q And twisting around. And is that 

20 looking more east there? 

21 A No. That is not east. That would be 

22 almost directly above, more or less. 

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1 Q Okay. And let ' s go further. And 

2 that's looking east, you said? 

3 A Yes, that should be east. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Now at 00:27. 

5 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

6 Q Which way does the camera pan? It 

7 turns this way, correct? Isn't that toward 

8 that's toward more east, correct? There's your 

9 bamboo. Is that looking east? 

10 A I would say that's looking more 

11 straight up than anything else. It's hard 

12 Q But looking at where that parachute 

13 canopy is and we're 00:34 in, there's a canopy on 

14 the edge of the clouds there. So you see it? 

15 A Yes, I see it. 

16 Q Okay. Is that east of the drop zone 

17 or west of the drop zone? 

18 A I would say it's it's almost 

19 directly above the drop zone so it's hard-- it's 

20 hard to determine where on the compass rose he 

21 exactly is 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

or he or she. 

So you're saying you can't tell if 

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1 that's east or west? 

2 A Well, not when the camera's pointing 

3 straight up. I mean 

4 (Brief pause. ) 

5 Q Does that video show Skydive Hawaii 

6 tandem jumpers and camera persons going into a 

7 cloud? 

8 A No. 

9 Q Why not? 

10 A Although I have -- I wasn't on that 

11 jump and I didn't post that video, I do have 

12 personal knowledge that both the first tandem and 

13 the videographer did not penetrate the cloud on 

14 that jump. 

15 Q How do you -- were you one of those 

16 jumpers? 

17 A No, I watched the videographer' s video 

18 after the fact. 

19 Q And why do you say this camera appears 

20 to show jumpers going through clouds when, in 

21 fact, you're claiming they didn't? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

When did I -- when have I claimed that 

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1 this camera shows that jumpers are going through 

2 clouds? 

3 Q No, I'm saying, why do you state that 

4 this does not show jumpers going through clouds? 

5 A Because I've seen the videographer's 

6 video from his helmet and they did not go through 

7 clouds. 

8 Q So videos aren't always accurate, are 

9 they? 

10 A Well, not when it's a ultralite GoPro 

11 on the bottom of an aircraft moving at 90 knots. 

12 Q And the second tandem pair? 

13 (A portion of the video was played.) 

14 A That was the first tandem pair, wasn't 

15 it? 

16 Q Okay. The first tandem pair. And 

17 it's your contention they did not go into that 

18 cloud? 

19 A Well, I know that they did not go 

2 o through that cloud because I personally viewed 

21 the video from the videographer with the FSDO. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

And from this video, does it appear 

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1 that they go into the cloud? 

2 A Well, it looks like they do. 

3 Q But they didn't actually do it? 

4 A But in reality they did not, no. 

5 Q Thank you. 

6 And what's do you have an 

7 explanation for that, why it looks like they did 

8 but in reality they didn't? 

9 A Yes. Because, one, the camera is a 

10 Go Pro which is ul trali te angles, everything on 

11 the periphery is distorted. And two, because it 

12 is on the bottom of an aircraft moving at 90 

13 knots in a direction opposite from the cloud. 

14 Q How did that affect because the 

15 cloud remained pretty much in the same space, 

16 didn't it? 

17 A So the cloud remained in the same 

18 space however the aircraft is moving away from 

19 the cloud. As the aircraft is moving away from 

20 the cloud more and more it's looking like the 

21 tandem pair is getting into the side of the 

22 frame. And the side of the frame, that's where 

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1 the camera is distorted because it's an ultralite 

2 camera. 

3 Q So your wide angle shots with your 

4 camera would be distorted? 

5 A My camera did not have any type of 

6 lens or wide angle lens on it. It was stock. 

7 Q And what is the widest angle of your 

8 lens? 

9 A On the camera? 

10 Q Yes. 

11 A It would be the factory, the factory 

12 angle width. 

13 Q You don't know what that is, do you? 

14 A Not -- again, I'm not a Sony engineer 

15 so I have no idea. 

16 Q Do you know whether or not that camera 

17 angle of the -- angle focal length of the lens, 

18 whether it's wide angle or in between or 

19 telephoto would be shown in the metadata that is 

20 recorded, the data that's recorded along with the 

21 video on that camera? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

I have no idea. 

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1 Q Okay. But we don't have the 

2 opportunity to look at that, do we? 

3 A That was it was made available to 

4 the FSDO but they did not want to take that data 

5 from me. 

6 Q And the second -- the second jumpers? 

7 (A portion of the video was played.) 

8 Q Is it your contention that they didn't 

9 go into the cloud for the same reason? 

10 A Well, for similar reasons and also 

11 because the aircraft is moving away from the 

12 cloud at 90 knots. The first pair did not 

13 penetrate the cloud so the second pair -- while I 

14 don't remember if I watched the video from the 

15 videographer, science, the way that I know it, 

16 would not allow that pair to go through the cloud 

17 either. 

18 Q So again, would it be a fair statement 

19 that cameras don't always accurate portray 

20 reality in terms of skydiving operations? 

21 A Well, not when they're on the bottom 

22 of an aircraft moving at 90 knots, no. 

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1 Q What's the forward speed of a 

2 parachute canopy? 

3 A Depends on the wind loading and the 

4 size of the canopy. And also if you're talking 

5 about ground speed, it depends on what the winds 

6 are. 

7 Q What would a typical speed be of a 

8 tandem parachute canopy used in a Sigma parachute 

9 rig? 

10 A But what size? A regular Sigma or 

11 micro Sigma? 

12 Q Regular Sigma. 

13 A I'm not too familiar with regular 

14 Sigmas because I have most of my time on micro 

15 Sigmas. But I would imagine that in no wind with 

16 a typical 160, 170 pound passenger, somewhere 

17 around 18 to 20 knots, maybe. 

18 Q And would the wind speed be added to 

19 that if you were traveling back from the exit 

20 point to the target? 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

If you're moving downwind, yes. 

So if there were a wind of 20 knots 

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1 the ground speed would be 38 knots, correct? 

2 A Depending on all the factors, yes. 

3 It's a possibility. 

4 Q So they're moving at -- a tandem pair 

5 is moving at a significant speed as well. It may 

6 not be 90 knots but it's 38 knots, correct? 

7 A Right. But my point is that the 

8 camera itself is moving rather than the people 

9 being filmed by the camera. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: I 'm sorry, can you 

11 repeat that? 

12 THE WITNESS: My point was that the 

13 camera itself is moving rather than the people 

14 being filmed by the camera. 

15 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

16 Q The people being filmed by the camera 

17 aren't moving in this video? 

18 A No, they are. But you're asking 

19 whether or not that affects how -- the accuracy 

20 of the video. And some -- a video that is taken 

21 from the ground in generally one area, you know, 

22 is not going to distort the video as much as an 

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1 aircraft traveling at 90 knots. 

2 Q But is it going to distort it? You're 

3 not a camera engineer. You already said you're 

4 not a Sony engineer and you're not -- you don't 

5 have any professional camera training, correct? 

6 A That's correct. 

7 Q I'll leave it at that for those that 

8 do and end the questions. 

9 But you're categorically stating that 

10 neither of the jumper in Exhibit R-12, neither of 

11 the jumper pairs, the cameraman, the tandem pair, 

12 that appear to be going through the cloud, 

13 neither of them did, in fact, go through the 

14 cloud. Is that your contention? 

15 A Correct. Even though the video camera 

16 on the bottom of the aircraft appeared to show 

17 that the tandem pair may have went through the 

18 cloud. I'm saying that the only reason it 

19 appears so is because it was -- the camera was 

20 mounted on the bottom of a moving object moving 

21 at 90 or more knots. And also because the camera 

22 is ultralite, it was a GoPro, as far as I know. 

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1 Q That's your theory, that's not 

2 you're not an optical engineer, are you? 

3 A I'm not an optical engineer. 

4 Q But you know that -- but regardless of 

5 the reason, you're stating that those jumper did 

6 not penetrate the cloud, right? 

7 JUDGE RAWALD : Mr. Feldman, I think 

8 the point's clear on this point. I think I 

9 understand. 

10 MR. FELDMAN: All right. Your Honor, 

11 I'd like to move for the admission of Respondent 

12 12 into evidence. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz? 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: No objection. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. There being no 

16 objection the document is so moved. 

17 (The document marked for 

18 identification as Respondent 

19 Exhibit Number 12 was 

20 received into evidence.) 

21 BY MR . FELDMAN: 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Now I show you --

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Feldman, just to 

2 get you through your questions here, we do have 

3 to vacate the courthouse by 4:30. So you can 

4 start another line of questioning but please keep 

5 in mind it should be one that isn't going to take 

6 you too long. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. I don ' t think 

8 I'll be finished with the witness today but --

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

10 MR. FELDMAN: -- I'll do my best. 

11 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

12 Q I'll show you -- to move it along 

13 I'll show you what's been admitted as Exhibit R14 16 and I'll show you a portion of that and ask if 

15 you recognize these. 

16 MR. FELDMAN: May I approach the 

17 bench? 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: You may. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: So these are portions 

20 of R-16? 

21 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, they are exhibits 

22 attached to R-16. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: I understand. 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance, 

3 Your Honor. 

4 MR. FELDMAN: R-16 has been stipulated 

5 to be admitted. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: The document ' s been 

7 previously admitted. I don't know how to stop me 

8 from talking about previously admitted evidence 

9 with the witness. I think the witness's 

10 testimony about them, especially they're from 

11 him. So the relevance to this, Mr. Feldman? 

12 MR. FELDMAN: Motivation in shooting 

13 the videos and accuracy of the videos which we 

14 can't tell whether or not -- testimony will show 

15 that we don't have the ability to determine how 

16 they were edited, if they were edited. We know 

17 they were edited to some extent. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: No, I understand. This 

19 goes to the possible bias of the witness which 

20 is, of course, central to the case. I'm going to 

21 allow, Mr. Bobertz. The objection is overruled. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: It's --

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes? 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: The date of the letter 

3 is after the incidents. It's July 31st, 2014. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: It's still -- I mean, 

5 he describes some longstanding feelings here that 

6 are clearly not motivated by what happened that 

7 particular day. There's a lot going on here, I'm 

8 going to allow Mr. Feldman to probe this 

9 witness's bias with the witness on the stand. He 

10 described extensively about what he observed, 

11 given pretty conclusory observations and took 

12 video footage that's the center of this case. 

13 I'm going to allow the cross examination in 

14 response to motivation. So the objection is 

15 overruled. 

16 MR. BOBERTZ: Can you give me --

17 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

18 Q Mr. Hinshaw 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry, can you give 

20 me a moment to pull up the exhibits, Your Honor? 

21 Which one was this again? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. FELDMAN: R-16. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: R-16, the Facebook 

2 posting or the letter to HPD. 

3 (Brief pause.) 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. I'll pull it up 

5 here too. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Looks like we're 

7 starting with page 14 of that, is that right? 

8 Page 14 of or page 15 is where this is 

9 starting. 

10 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

11 Q Did you post these exhibits on your 

12 Facebook page, on the Skydive Hawaii Facebook 

13 page? 

14 A On advice of my counsel, I 

15 respectfully decline to answer and assert my 

16 Fifth Amendment privilege. 

17 Q Mr. Hinshaw, did you were you 

18 previously asked about these posts in another 

19 legal proceeding? 

20 A Under advice of my counsel, I 

21 respectfully decline to answer and assert my 

22 Fifth Amendment privilege. 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, I think the 

2 testimony would show that he has waived that 

3 privilege by responding to questions regarding 

4 these posts in another legal proceeding. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: Absent certain 

6 governance that I can't do anything about at the 

7 moment, counsel. 

8 MR. FELDMAN: I will hold these 

9 questions in abeyance subject to recalling Mr. 

10 Hinshaw after the testimony of Mr. Saunders 

11 tomorrow. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

13 MR. FELDMAN: And at that point, I 

14 think let's break --

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, do you have any 

16 more questions of Mr. Hinshaw then or are you 

17 done with him as a witness? We could then start 

18 in the morning with Mr. McCowan. We can go a few 

19 more minutes but I want to make sure there's 

20 nothing else you want to cover with him. 

2 1 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

22 Q Did you ever give a cutthroat sign to 

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1 any personnel of Skydive -- Pacific Skydiving, 

2 cutting your throat by moving your finger in 

3 front of your throat? 

4 A Under advice of my counsel, I 

5 respectfully decline to answer and assert my 

6 Fifth Amendment privilege. 

7 Q Who is your counsel? 

8 A Mr. Jason Say. 

9 Q Jason what? 

10 A Mr. Jason Say. 

11 Q s-e-y? 

12 A I believe it's S-a-y. 

13 Q Thank you. 

14 Did you ever tell anyone from Pacific 

15 Skydiving as you drove by in a menacing voice 

16 that you knew where they lived? 

17 A On advice of my counsel, I 

18 respectfully decline to answer and assert my 

19 Fifth Amendment privilege. 

20 Q What are your feelings toward Skydive 

21 Hawaii with toward Pacific Skydiving with 

22 respect to having them continue or discontinue 

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1 their business at Dillingham Airfield? 

2 A Sorry, could you say that again? 

3 Q What are your feelings with respect to 

4 Pacific Skydiving with respect to them continuing 

5 to conduct skydiving business at Dillingham 

6 Airport? 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. I think it's 

9 allowable, counsel. It certainly has -- it goes 

10 to motivation as to why he's made this complaint 

11 in the first place. It goes to that question so 

12 I'm going to allow the question. The objection 

13 is overruled. 

14 THE WITNESS: So your question was how 

15 do I feel about Pacific continuing business? 

16 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

17 Q About them continuing business at this 

18 at Dillingham Airfield? 

19 A They may continue business, I would 

20 hope that it would be in a lawful manner. 

21 

22 

Q Did you ever post that anyone that you 

that their employees, their contractors would 

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1 be out of a job and looking for work on the 

2 mainland? 

3 A On advice of my counsel, I 

4 respectfully decline to answer and assert my 

5 Fifth Amendment privilege. 

6 Q Did you ever state to anyone at 

7 Pacific Skydiving that you wanted them gone so 

8 that you could do what you wanted at Dillingham 

9 Airfield, including jumping through clouds? 

10 A I don't recall that, no. 

11 Q Do you recall not saying it? 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: He said he does not 

13 recall saying it so your question has sort of a 

14 negative 

15 THE WITNESS: I don't recall ever, 

16 ever saying anything like that. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

18 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

19 Q So with respect to the posts which are 

20 in Exhibit 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: I think he's already 

22 declared he's not answering any questions on the 

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1 posts, sir. 

2 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

3 Q You're not going to answer any 

4 questions regarding these posts that I just 

5 presented to you, are you? 

6 A No, I will be asserting my Fifth 

7 Amendment privilege regarding those posts. 

8 MR. FELDMAN: I have nothing further 

9 at this time, Your Honor. The witness has been 

10 served with a subpoena. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD : He'll be subject to 

12 recall. 

13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

14 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

15 Q Did you receive a subpoena today to 

16 appear in 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Don't -- sir, he'll be 

18 subject to recall. Do not worry. 

19 Now Mr. Bobertz, before we have him 

20 depart for -- until the recall, do you have any 

21 redirect you wish to ask him? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: Can you give me one 

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1 moment, Your Honor? 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: I can. 

3 (Brief pause.) 

4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

5 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

6 Q Mr. Hinshaw, in spite of your feelings 

7 you may have towards Skydive Hawaii-- I'm sorry, 

8 Pacific Skydiving, did you do anything to alter 

9 the videos that you took that day? 

10 A No, I did not alter the videos in any 

11 way. 

12 Q Did you do anything to creatively film 

13 them when you did the filming? 

14 A I did not use any creative filming. 

15 I simply had the camera in my hand and recorded 

16 what I -- what I saw. 

17 Q Did you alter your testimony today in 

18 any way because of your feelings for -- or make 

19 potential negative feelings against Skydive 

20 Hawaii -- I'm sorry, against Pacific Aviation? 

21 A 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

I did not alter my testimony at all. 

I meant to say against Pacific 

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1 Skydiving. 

2 A Against Pacific Skydiving. 

3 Q Okay. 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: No further questions. 

5 Thank you. 

6 MR. FELDMAN: But following up on that 

7 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, based upon that, 

9 Mr. Feldman? 

10 FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION 

11 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

12 Q Mr. Hinshaw, did the videos -- just to 

13 be clear on it. The videos that you presented to 

14 the FAA were compilations of individual files 

15 that were on your computer, is that correct? 

16 That were on the camera card, is that correct? 

17 They weren't one continuous file, you strung them 

18 together in some way, correct? 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, asked and 

20 answered. 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: Yeah, I think he made 

22 clear on direct that he filmed that and that 

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1 because of the way he filmed them he even had to 

2 upload them and there were multiple files as they 

3 appeared. So --

4 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. I have one other 

5 question. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes? 

7 (Brief pause.) 

8 (A portion of the video was played.) 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: So you're showing 

10 Exhibit A-7 here, sir? 

11 (A portion of the video was played.) 

12 BY MR. FELDMAN: 

13 Q At any point in recording this -- you 

14 used the radio a lot to monitor the unicorn 

15 frequency, correct? 

16 A That's correct. 

17 Q Okay. You never -- even though you 

18 stated that Gee Benal was in contact with the 

19 aircraft, you never recorded that on the video, 

20 correct? 

21 A Not in any of these but in the future 

22 videos I sent to the FSDO in 2014, 2015 and 2016, 

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1 I did record. 

2 Q And so in these videos there was no 

3 record of that, so you don't know what he was 

4 saying on those conversations, do you? 

5 A Not during the time that they were 

6 filmed. I may have listened in when I was not 

7 recording. 

8 Q Does Skydive Hawaii have a company 

9 frequency? 

10 A Yes, we do. 

11 Q Okay. Now at one point in the video 

12 you stated that the conditions were bad so you 

13 would think that your aircraft was coming down. 

14 And then a little bit later in the same video 

15 they did come down. Can you explain how you knew 

16 they would come down? 

17 A I knew that they would come down 

18 because not only was -- did a crack-down occur in 

19 2013 but several of our pilots had been called 

20 into the FSDO. Many of them quit and so it was 

21 well-known at that time that, to our pilots 

22 anyway, 

(202) 234-4433 

that you should not drop skydivers 

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1 through clouds or you're going to lose your job. 

2 Q And with respect to your operations, 

3 it's frequent that the aircraft goes up and has 

4 to return or does it occur more than 

5 occasionally? 

6 A Only since 2013 after the crackdown. 

7 And also because 2014 and 2015 we experienced el 

8 Nino and that caused a lot more clouds to be 

9 present than normal. 

10 Q Okay. Do you know if Pacific 

11 Skydiving also returns with full aircraft 

12 aircraft full of jumpers? 

13 A After the -- after I began reporting 

14 them to the Flight Standards District Office, 

15 occasionally they will return with jumpers when 

16 it's exceptionally bad. 

17 Q Okay. So it's not something unique to 

18 Skydi ve Hawaii, it's also done by Pacific 

19 Skydiving, correct? 

20 A Well, any pilot in command can abort 

21 a jump run whenever they wish. 

22 Q 

(202) 234-4433 

Okay. So it's the pilot's decision? 

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1 A Generally it's left up to the pilot 

2 and the skydivers onboard because they have the 

3 best view of what's occurring. 

4 Q You couldn't do that from the ground, 

5 could you? 

6 A There are things on the ground that 

7 you can see that people in the plane can't, such 

8 as that it's raining or if there's a squall, a 

9 gust. Sometimes the ground does have a better 

10 vantage point than in the air. 

11 Q But with respect to jumping in the 

12 proximity of clouds, that's left to the pilot and 

13 the skydivers to determine when to get out? 

14 A Sometimes. And sometimes not. It's 

15 not 

16 Q When is it not? 

17 A For instance, if at least before 

18 the pilots had in-flight weather and that type of 

19 stuff, so people like in the manifest could be 

20 looking at the weather, know how long the 

21 aircraft had been in the air and for logistical 

22 reasons or what have you can ask the pilot to 

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1 abort jump run also. 

2 Q But how has the final decision? The 

3 pilot, correct? 

4 A Well, the pilot is behind the controls 

5 so it would be hard for anybody to, from the 

6 ground, to control the aircraft. 

7 Q Thank you. 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Nothing further, Your 

9 Honor. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. I have one 

11 question after everything you've testified today. 

12 THE WITNESS: Sure. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: So it sounds to me the 

14 central assumption you were making as you were 

15 watching the parachutists was that, if you could 

16 not see the starting point, the plane, and then 

17 you could see the parachutists, they must have 

18 passed through a cloud, is that right? 

19 THE WITNESS: That's correct. If 

20 you're looking straight up and you can't see the 

21 aircraft and then a parachutist appears below the 

22 cloud, then to me that is indicative of --

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: So when I 1 m watching 

2 the video and I hear you say, he 1 s through the 

3 cloud, the basis for that was because you could 

4 not see the plane but you could see the 

5 parachutist at some point afterwards? 

6 THE WITNESS: Correct. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Thank you. 

8 Did that question raise any questions 

9 from either party? 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: No. But I did have one 

11 question on redirect, Your Honor. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

13 REDIRECT EXMINATION 

14 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 

15 Q In the video we watched from the 

16 bottom of the aircraft where you said you 

17 determined it was determined that their 

18 jumpers didn 1 t go through the clouds, was that 

19 just you or was that just you and the FSDO that 

20 made that determination? 

21 A It was actually the Flight Standards 

22 District Office that made that determination. I 

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1 was just -- I had personal knowledge because I 

2 had to talk to the videographers in order to get 

3 their videos to the Flight Standards District 

4 Office. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Anything 

7 further? 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Not today, Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Then what we'll 

10 do is we' 11 release the witness but you' 11 get 

11 set to recall so you don't have to come back in 

12 the morning tomorrow but you'll be available by 

13 phone. And so if Mr. Bobertz calls you and says, 

14 we need to bring you back for testimony, you'll 

15 need to be here in about half an hour, 45 

16 minutes, okay? 

17 THE WITNESS: I understand. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And I want you, 

19 meanwhile, while the case is ongoing, do not 

20 discuss your testimony with anybody, witnesses or 

21 anybody else, okay? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: I understand. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
1-295 

1 MR. FELDMAN: And Your Honor, he ' s 

2 also been subpoenaed by me, the subpoena was 

3 served. So in my case, I am --

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, I think given the 

5 relation to the party I think Mr. Bobertz is 

6 going to be accommodating enough to call Mr. 

7 Hinshaw if we need him to come back as a witness. 

8 Would that be appropriate? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So at this time 

11 -- so you can go ahead and sit down, sir. 

12 So where we are now is I'd like to 

13 start in the morning with Mr. McCowan as your 

14 next witness. So would the parties be able to 

15 appear at 8: 30? Is that going to be okay for 

16 folks or do you still want to start at 9:00 as we 

17 had planned? 

18 MR. FELDMAN: I'd rather start at 9:00 

19 Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So what I need 

21 you folks to do is be prepared to keep things on 

22 point and not drift and be prepared so we can 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
1-296 

1 keep it moving along. 

2 MR. FELDMAN: The problem is that the 

3 security doesn't open down there until 8:30 --

4 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

5 MR. FELDMAN: - - and they make you 

6 strip. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, yes, sir. So 

8 we'll be here and we'll start exactly at 9: oo 

9 o'clock so we can get started with Mr. McCowan, 

10 okay? So then after that you'll have Mr. 

11 Saunders as your first witness, is that your 

12 plan? 

13 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So your additional 

15 witnesses, I would tell them to come after lunch 

16 then given the fact that 

17 We'll probably go for the whole morning, perhaps 

18 even take a little longer. 

19 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. I'll tell them 

20 that. 

21 JUDGE RAWALD : Yeah. I don ' t think 

22 we'll get to them in the morning, sir. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
1-297 

1 MR. FELDMAN: I don't, either. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So we'll plan on 

3 having them to be here --

4 (Indistinct comments.) 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: So thank you. 

6 Anything else? 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. I'm 

8 just trying to evaluate the -- my need for Mr. 

9 McCowan at the moment with additional testimony. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: I can't say I can tell 

12 you right now but there is some chance that I may 

13 decide I don't need him. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. With that in 

15 mind, sir, Mr. Feldman, please tell the witnesses 

16 to be here 11:00 tomorrow. 

17 MR. FELDMAN: Eleven o'clock. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, if they don't 

19 call Mr. McCowan, will you still call Mr. 

2 0 Saunders? 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. FELDMAN: Absolutely. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So I understand 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
1-298 

1 Mr. saunders will be at least an hour and a half 

2 between the two witnesses. 

3 MR. FELDMAN: Yeah, because I'm going 

4 to go through the video, everything that Mr. 

5 Hinshaw talked about today. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: And other factors 

8 involving skydiving at Dillingham Air Force Base. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: So please have Mr. 

10 Benal 's witnesses or employees and contractors 

11 who are associated with him in the area at 11:00 

12 o'clock so we can be prepared for them if 

13 necessary. 

14 MR. BENAL: At 11:00? 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Eleven o'clock. Thank 

16 you very much. 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: Just to clarify, Your 

18 Honor, if don't call Mr. McCowan on direct I may 

19 call him as a rebuttal witness. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Understood. 

21 Anything else for us to discuss right 

22 now? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
1-299 

1 MR. BOBERTZ: No. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Then let's be 

3 ready to be back here at 9:00 o'clock. We'll do 

4 Mr. McCowan or we can discuss going off 

5 resting your case at that point and going on to 

6 the -- to Mr. Feldman's case. 

7 Thank you. 

8 Okay. We're going off the record at 

9 this time. 

10 (Whereupon, this proceeding was 

11 recessed at 4:16p.m.) 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC 

Volume 1 

300 

adversarial 88:20 

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282:17 284:3 

advise 11:14 

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Washington DC 

Volume 1 

301 

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190:11205:1244:18 

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294:14 

bringing 16:18 33:17 

86:10 

broad 164:8 

broken 106:20 107:2,5 

107:7,20 108:4,8,18 

111:10,11112:2 

113:8114:15175:2 

196:12198:7199:11 

207:20 241:13 245:10 

246:4 251:3 253:9 

brought 16:8 32:4 

98:21107:19146:11 

222:16 

building 21:3 147:12 

175:18 

bunch 156:17 251:22 

burn 153:6 157:7 

burned 76:16 153:8 

161:9 

busiest 183: 1 

business 14:7,9 27:3,4 

27:6 29:3 31:8,19 

49:13,19 50:3,8,12 

51:3,18,19117:13 

118:5,13,16,18 

228:19,21 283:1,5,15 

283:17,19 

button 149:4 170:12 

176:18 206:11 254:9 

buy 156:17 

--...• ---:::---

-·---~---

c-C-o-w-a-n 4:22 

C130s 225:2 

C17s 225:2 

California 2:6 

call10:15 22:2 26:2,8 

34:8 92:15 135:13 

139:2 190:8 198:1 

205:14,17 210:7,11 

212:22 253:13 295:6 

297:19,19 298:18,19 

called 36:15 52:11 

54:20 93:4 107:14 

139:12158:17 205:15 

210:18 234:15 289:19 

www.nealrgross.com 
calling 259:2,3,5 

calls 36:5 91:21 92:18 

111:2139:5144:15 

294:13 

camera 76:11,13,14,15 

76:20 109:21110:17 

148:16,19,21149:3 

156:1,3,5 157:12,19 

157:20 158:4,9,12,14 

158:16 160:16 161:1 

161:7,10 173:21 

174:1,2,6175:11 

177:1,2180:4,19 

181:1,14189:5 

192:13 199:20 200:9 

200:17 215:21 217:3 

249:6,6 250:17 254:3 

254:10,11 '13, 15,17 

255:17 257:9 267:6 

268:6,19 269:1 270:9 

271:1 ,2,4,5,9, 16,21 

274:8,9,13, 14,16 

275:3,5,15,19,21 

286:15 287:16 

camera's 182:1 197:4 

266:16 268:2 

cameraman 112:21 

188:19,20 275:11 

cameras 249:22 272:19 

Camp 116:6 

cancellation 79:21 80:2 

canopies 106:10,11 

111:5,22113:6 

114:14192:9,14 

197:6 199:16 203:5 

203:20 208:8,10,13 

209:4210:17211:15 

212:3 213:8 218:22 

255:11256:11,16 

257:22 258:7,8,11 

canopy 173:15 174:16 

175:3 182:19189:5,7 

189:8,9,19 192:22 

194:7,12 196:16 

199:11201:9,15 

206:16 207:11 208:1 

208:2 212:13 213:15 

216:7,8,18217:2 

218:17 221:3,8,10 

248:2,20,21 251:11 

258:1 267:13,13 

273:2,4,8 

capacity62:8 94:15 

Caravan 205:2,2 

Caravan-Eight-Papa184:7 

(202) 234-4433 

card 156:6,7,8,11,12 

157:2,12,15161:8 

287:16 

cards 156:10,15,17,21 

157:15 

care 17:22 34:9 

careful159: 11 

cases 12:10,18,2113:6 

13:7,1114:1115:12 

15:15 29:2 49:20 50:2 

103:7,11104:1,4,22 

123:21 255:4 

Casey95:16116:15 

cashier 238:7 

catching 16:2 

categorically 275:9 

cause 11:17,1818:6 

caused 290:8 

caution 13:4 

caveat 123:3 

CD 161:8,9 

cease 145:2 

cell135:12 

center 4:9 32:19 39:7 

64:10 67:20 69:10 

125:5 143:3 147:20 

172:22 173:6,7 

180:17 189:19 193:10 

194:8 202:9 203:6,7,8 

206:10,13 208:14 

211:16212:4,5 

213:20 214:18 215:7 

215:7,15 216:12 

218:1,1 220:15 223:8 

223:21242:15279:12 

central278:20 292:14 

ceremony 140:20 

certain 11:2 33:4 

234:17,18 254:18 

281:5 

certainly 35:7,8 219:14 

283:9 

certainty 262:14 

certificate 48:20 52:20 

62:15121:9 

certificates 62:14 95:2 

certification 12:16 

120:18 

certified 38:7121:8 

certifies 41 :2 

Cessna 79:20 

CFR 11:14 37:17 55:1 

107:16 163:18 

CFRs49:7 

chain3:13,13 

chance 297:12 

change 34:11 249:16 

260:18,20 261:16,19 

changed 13:18 

changes 235:13 

characterization 30:13 

151:8 

charge 77:20 

check 61:13,14 68:2 

checked 61:7 62:10,13 

checking 158:14 

chief98:20 119:12 

120:4,12,21 121:5 

chip 156:4 

choice 157:1,6 162:9 

choose 162:6 

choosing 55:14 

chute 113:21 

chutes 74:1 

circled 148:2 

circling 127:22 209:8 

209:10 215:2,4 

circular 28:17 

circumstances 225:5 

246:2 

cirrus 78:17,18 

citation 17:8 18:10 

citations 19:7 

citing 17:6 

civi112:10 13:114:3 

28:21 29:2 48:19 

55:15 57:10 

claim 244:21 257:2 

claimed 268:22 

claiming 268:21 

clarification 83:19 

clarified 66:15 

clarify 83:4 104:16 

119:1 120:5 298:17 

clarity81:22102:18 

clear 9:14 37:20 50:20 

66:12 69:18 74:15 

77:6,8 78:11 85:17 

127:11,22128:1 

148:8 150:19 151:10 

159:15161:5 164:6 

171:16,17181:16 

183:9 187:8 219:8 

246:3 260:7 276:8 

287:13,22 

clearance 78:1 

clearer 187:8 254:20 

clearly 28:16 73:4,17 

81:18,19 82:15 106:8 

111:4,21 113:5 

114:12182:1196:2 

258:6 279:6 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC 

Volume 1 

client 166:4 

climb 222:9 

close 21:13 179:8 

303 

182:18183:8196:10 

211:16 

closed 61:10 

closely70:1 201:22 

closer 180:17 

cloud's 7 4:2 

clouds 25:17 29:1 

32:15 59:15 60:11 

61:3 72:8 73:18 75:20 

76:22 78:15,18 81:18 

81:20 82:15 99:13 

106:10109:3,5111:5 

111:11,22112:2 

113:6,11,11114:14 

116:21125:22126:11 

126:16 127:5 131:4 

143:7,9,14,22 144:9 

173:13,15174:15 

180:6,8 193:17 

194:13195:14196:11 

199:17 200:3,19 

206:22 207:7 208:15 

208:19 209:3 217:11 

219:4220:17,19 

225:4 228:18 229:13 

232:20 233:2 240:1 

240:16 241:12 242:9 

242:12,15,16,18 

243:2,6,8,11 '15, 18,19 

243:20 244:20 245:1 

246:7 247:4 250:15 

251:18253:1260:7 

262:17 267:14 268:20 

269:2,4,7 284:9 290:1 

290:8 291:12 293:18 

cloudy 99:12 127:10 

coach 142:3 

coast 142:1 

coastline 223:1,4 

code 157:15 

cold 235:6 

collected 42:16,20 

collecting 17:17 46:2 

collective 87:5 

color 88:7 

colored 189:8 

combination 15:15 

combine 15:13 16:12 

87:2 

combined 12:10,19 

14:12,15,16 86:21 

87:9 236:21 

come 22:18 29:17 34:4 

www.nealrgross.com 
34:12 35:17 38:11 

73:22 83:14 86:17 

91:20,21 92:22 137:9 

137:17142:21173:11 

194:12,15,17 216:10 

226:4 257:11 289:15 

289:16,17 294:11 

295:7 296:15 

comes 180: 19 243:6 

253:8 

coming 11:22 18:18 

60:10 78:20111:8,11 

114:1 174:14 185:7 

195:13 200:17,17 

207:7 208:11,15 

209:2 211:3 215:13 

223:13 243:1 258:3 

262:17 264:10 289:13 

command 39:8 54:3 

58:15 80:4,6 122:5 

290:20 

comment 178:17 

199:20 212:20 217:9 

254:5 

commentary 171:3 

commenting 197:6 

198:14 199:13 

comments 24:11,18 

297:4 

committed 14:6 

communicate 115:3 

communication 116:18 

communications 89:10 

115:10190:20 

community 222:4 

companies 37:13,17 

63:18 65:5 142:16 

companion 84:13 

company 39:5,6,6 46:8 

48:20 50:5 53:6,9,22 

54:3 57:7 58:9 60:1 

64:4 120:22 121:17 

123:22 124:1,2,5,6,7 

124:10125:17 142:16 

142:17 143:8,13 

190:12,22 205:3,16 

222:10 229:12 289:8 

company's 228:15 

compared 242:16 

compass 223:19 

267:20 

competently 230:10 

competition 31:7 

compilations 287:14 

Complainant2:2 15:9 

15:17 16:18 38:21 

(202) 234-4433 

Complainant's 43:20 

complaining 143:10 

complaint 11:6,19 

12:19 13:1,5 16:20 

18:2,3 38:13 42:14 

45:11 '17, 19,20 49:4 

86:12,16 90:5 95:17 

95:19 97:1 98:18 99:1 

99:11 115:16 126:14 

153:20 283:10 

complaints 13:2,14 

37:13 95:1 

completed 103:12,16 

103:20105:12 

completely 77:2 108:15 

229:22 

compliant 67:12 130:19 

131:8 

complied 130:17 

comply 130:16 

computer 76:7,8, 14,16 

105:10115:19156:13 

156:19 287:15 

computer's 227:3 

concern 14:7,10 27:4,6 

49:19 51:4 171:15 

concerned 159: 18 

concerning 163:13,16 

concerns 163:1 

conclusion 33:10 34:22 

122:21123:2 144:3 

144:20 159:12 219:4 

219:5,16 

conclusions 151:10 

172:11219:12 

conclusory 151:5 172:8 

279:11 

condensed 252:22 

condition 106:20 108:2 

248:11 

conditions 1 06: 11, 12 

106:22111:6112:1 

114:15,16 144:17,19 

183:9 184:10 185:22 

259:13,16 260:18 

261:16 262:5,15,16 

262:21 263:6 289:12 

conducive 184:10 

262:21 264:18 

conduct57:2 125:3,8 

283:5 

conducted 27:10 32:17 

32:21 64:15 68:12 

conducting 32:20 

56:21 64:8 126:15 

131:3228:21 

cone 231:16 

conference 20:5 66:8 

66:10,16 84:19 85:10 

confirm 7:9 8:20 102:1 

confirmed 39:3 

conflicts 224:11 

confrontation 62:21 

63:10,14,16 

confronted 126:22 

confused 223: 1 0 

238:15 

confusing 65:19 

confusion 104:8 

consider 44:13 166:5 

171:18172:3,5,10 

202:13 

considering 20:5 

consistent 221:21 

constrained 165:16 

constraint 166:3 

consult 68:10 69:2 

103:2 

contact 67:1 ,4 173:14 

187:5 214:8 251:20 

251:21,21 252:2 

288:18 

contained 54:15 157:12 

contains 30: 19 

content 44:4 

contention 269:17 

272:8 275:14 

contents 3:1 41:17,20 

44:3 97:18 

contest 12:8 

context 19:13 50:21 

66:16 164:19 

continue 143:8 160:7,8 

165:3 200:15 202:21 

208:1211:10215:8 

216:19 218:10 220:9 

222:8 282:22 283:19 

continued 143:12,14 

continues 174:17 

continuing 181:9 212:9 

212:16 283:4,15,17 

continuous 160:22 

287:17 

contractors 28:1,10,13 

129:16 229:2,8,9,10 

283:22 298:10 

contrary 127:14 

control 53:4,5,18,20 

54:1,7 55:17 56:18 

57:4 207:19 208:8 

225:21 292:6 

controlled 55:19 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC 

Volume 1 

304 

controls 170:10 197:1 

292:4 

controversy 14:5 

convened 1:13 

conversation 51:2 

conversations 289:4 

cooperating 130:22 

cooperative 32: 1 0 

copied 100:18101:7 

116:18161:7 

copies99:19149:19 

154:10,10,14155:16 

157:7159:7,8,13,22 

160:2 227:15 

copy 38:22 41:4 47:7 

76:5,6 129:20 149:20 

157:2 158:22 159:3 

160:21,22 161:22 

162:8 

corner 104:2,17 175:16 

175:18 212:12 

corporation 5:11 

Corps 224:21 

correctly 101:18 115:7 

123:14 

correlate 200:4 

corroborate 89:19 

163:8 

corroborates 26:11 

cough 235:4 

counsel2:4 4:10,16 5:5 

9:19 22:22 27:4 30:15 

54:21 83:10 87:1 

101:17107:17117:22 

118:7119:20123:3 

133:6 227:21 229:6 

232:13 250:5 280:14 

280:20 281:7 282:4,7 

282:17 283:9 284:3 

counsel's 106:17 

count 23:11 

couple 11:219:6 38:8 

83:3 90:20,22 98:10 

178:12 192:18 204:20 

207:8 

course 10:6 25:5 44:13 

66:2 87:21 122:20 

125:19 133:2 134:3 

165:3168:16,18 

278:20 

court 1:11 12:5,12 

16:1019:1526:21 

29:18 84:22154:15 

162:20165:17 

courthouse 277:3 

courtroom 136:14,20 

www.nealrgross.com 
178:20 

courts 14:2 

cover69:14 77:1,4 

107:2 149:5 281:20 

coverage 108:20 

covered94:21108:15 

crack 143:6 

crack-down 143:7 

289:18 

crackdown 290:6 

create 31:7 160:17 

created 46:6,8 86:20 

creates 248: 13 

creative 286:14 

creatively 286:12 

credibility 44:13 55:21 

56:6 63:5 73:3 119:21 

164:16165:1,3 172:1 

172:4,7 232:19 233:1 

250:15 

credible 56:2 

cross 3:2 45:6 89:8 

101:3132:19134:4 

137:2 163:4 165:4 

226:5 227:6 279:13 

cross-41:20 44:14 

cue 166:22 

culpability 87:22 

culture 81:2 

cumulo-stratus 78:16 

78:21 

cumulonimbus 244:11 

cumulus 242:2 

current 140:4 

currently 37:6,7 94:2,3 

94:5 140:7 142:13,17 

175:21 

Curtis 51:14 68:16 

69:13 

cut 191:11 

cutthroat 281:22 

cutting 282:2 

CX150 148:20 157:22 

D ---------""----

D-414:1 

D.C 94:6 

danger 183:2,6 225:3 

dangerous 183:10 

dangers 225:15 

darker 243:2 256:12 

data 156:11,12,14 

157:11 158:20 159:6 

160:2,3,20 161:21 

162:12165:13 271:20 

272:4 

(202) 234-4433 

database 68:2 104:20 

105:8 

date 4:6 11:17 152:22 

157:21158:21197:14 

279:2 

dates 103:18 104:5 

day 99:12 135:18 

144:12151:17152:9 

214:2 224:2 235:10 

239:14 262:19 263:21 

264:4 279:7 286:9 

days 11:1618:5 25:17 

25:18 98:10 99:19 

142:10 

deal17:20 18:21 97:22 

dealt 50:4 51:6 

deboarded 185:21 

December 1:9 4:6 

10:10,1313:822:7 

25:19 40:8,8,9 70:12 

70:14 73:16 81:19 

85:22 87:6 103:18,22 

104:18 105:5150:21 

151:14 179:13 

decide 17:18 144:11 

262:1263:10297:13 

decided 86:1 164:7 

232:3,4 

decides 35:4 54:1,5 

237:3 

deciding 18:8 122:9,12 

124:9 

decision 34:1,19 80:7 

83:3 88:16 121:12,14 

121:15123:11,18 

124:3,11 290:22 

292:2 

declaration 3:12,12 

40:10,12 41:1 43:12 

88:3 90:7 133:6,8 

230:8,12,14 251:5 

declarations 90:12 

131:14,17 230:6 

declare 230: 15 

declared 284:22 

decline 280:15,21 

282:5,18 284:4 

deemed27:5 

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defend 13:19 

define 63:16 72:14 

defined 57:6 77:3 

definitely 194:4 

definition 54:12 56:19 

107:5,7108:5,16 

definitions 54:14 

degree 110:2 231:16 

244:5 262:13 

degrees 200:8,9 247:6 

delay 216:16 

delegate 28:10 

delineate 147:10 

deliver43:15 

delivered 41:7 43:17 

demonstrative 164: 1 

Denise 130:5 

Dennis 98:13 

deny 126:15,18 

depart 222:6 285:20 

departing 259:8,18,20 

259:21 260:2 264:8 

264:11,16 

DEPARTMENT 1:1 

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dependent 236:20 

237:15 

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243:16 245:13,16 

261:7 274:2 

depends 75:22 231:19 

232:2 236:8,22 237:2 

241:22 244:9,9 245:5 

248:4 249:8 255:2 

262:9 273:3,5 

depicting 152:14 

deploy 188:14 232:4 

234:16 237:3,6 

deployed 106:10,11 

111:6112:1113:7 

114:7,14 203:21 

248:8 252:7 

deploying 113:17 

214:20 

deployment 113:15 

234: 13 249:3 

descend 184:9 246:22 

descending 59:14 

184:16 192:12 193:12 

describe 11:18 94:18 

146:13 148:22 174:13 

176:5 177:16 178:6 

180:13 181:5 183:14 

186:13187:20205:11 

211:13 212:19 214:14 

215:11 216:5 217:1 

221:2,17 223:16 

described 163:19 246:5 

253:6 279:10 

describes 279:5 

describing 180:15 

187:21 190:6 210:8 

210:16,22 211:1 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC 

Volume 1 

212:15 220:16 

desire 91:12 

desktop 156:9,13 

destroyed 162: 1 0 

305 

165:14 

detai1149:1 

determination 243:8 

293:20,22 

determine 49:11,16 

52:15 57:1,17 58:4 

79:9117:12119:7 

127:19 232:16 244:6 

244:13,15,19,22 

262:4,14,20 267:20 

278:15 291:13 

determined 38:17 39:8 

42:1555:16118:12 

118:15123:15144:17 

144:21,22 293:17,17 

determining 57:10 

123:16 160:5 250:8 

develop 31:12 34:2 

166:6 

developing 35:14 

deviation 49:4 

deviations 37:15 

device 234:15,16 

248:14 

dictated 113:19 

difference 120:17 

different 13:14,20 

25:17 28:7,11 38:8 

83:8 84:7 97:22 98:1 

235:15,16,19 242:11 

246:14 248:5 263:6 

differentiate 218:3 

differs222:10 

difficult218:3 

digital254: 13 

Dillingham 31:8 38:20 

59:4 60:5 64:2,12,17 

64:20 81:7 98:14 

11 0:22 115:6 116: 1 0 

125:9 140:11,12 

142:7,9,14, 16,18 

145:7182:21 221:18 

221:20 222:3 224:15 

235:10 260:18 261:19 

283:1 ,5, 18 284:8 

298:8 

dire 3:4 155:14,21 

direct 3:2 36:22 76:7 

93:11139:18165:4 

287:10,22 298:18 

direction 50:14 222:13 

236:3,5 263:13,20 

www.nealrgross.com 
266:13 270:13 

directions 235:17 

directly70:15,17 71:17 

71:18,19 72:1173:13 

81:1 106:8 109:7,13 

110:9,10111:3,20 

112:20,22 117:5 

147:13 175:4,5,7 

180:16181:10,11 

200:19 201:21,22 

207:19 215:1 216:7 

219:21224:4231:1,2 

231:4,13,15 240:2,17 

244:12 252:3 266:22 

267:19 

director 53:16 

directs 53:6 

disc76:15,16 

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discovery 160:3 

discrete 190:12 

discuss 11:2 19:3 35:8 

65:13 83:10 136:5,9 

168:5 229:21 294:20 

298:21 299:4 

discussed 50:17 51:9 

64:14 

discussing 43:13 60:22 

117:1,22126:13 

discussion 16:17 59:15 

87:21106:17118:6 

discussions 40:5 63:17 

63:17 126:8 

dismissal33:15 

dispatcher 53:13,16 

display 158:1 

displayed 226:18 

dissociate 253:11 

distance 193:16 218:4 

245:2,2 246:21 

distort 274:22 275:2 

distorted 270:11 271:1 

271:4 

district1:10,1112:12 

14:2 37:8 94:8,11,12 

116:17143:11144:8 

290:14 293:22 294:3 

Docket4:9 

document 40:15,20 

42:3 43:5,9 44:2,11 

44:12,14,17 45:13 

96:7,16 97:11,12 

133:11134:7 227:14 

276:16,17 

document's 278:6 

(202) 234-4433 

documentary 164:1 

documentation 40:5 

42:10 

documented 72:21 

documents6:16 7:10 

7:14 8:13,21 9:3,11 

98:1 149:14 166:13 

doing 13:13 21:10 38:3 

46:1 64:12 65:4 74:5 

84:21 95:7 100:2 

140:14,17 155:18 

Don 2:3 4:13 

dot 173:5 176:11 

177:20 182:4,5,9 

188:16 

doubt 165:1 

Doug4:5 

DOUGLAS 1:18 

downwind 273:21 

drafted 87:7 

drag 248:13,14 

drastically 261:17 

drift 295:22 

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drive 39:1143:4 156:18 

drop 70:16,17 71:11,13 

71:18 72:14 73:13 

106:8 109:7,8,10,16 

110:9,13,14111:3,12 

111:20112:20115:22 

125:16 128:1 147:9 

147:11,18,19153:5 

188:1260:14267:16 

267:17,19 289:22 

dropped 74:22 127:21 

dropping 25:16 32:20 

127:5175:12 210:10 

drove 282:15 

due 116:8 184:10 222:7 

duly 36:16 93:5 139:13 

duplicative 9:12,22 

10:3 

duties 37:22 91:14 94:1 

94:9,19 95:12 

duty28:10 61:18,21 

DVD 152:5,13 154:2,6 

157:7161:1 

DVDs 153:6,8 

dwell18:20 

e-r-t-z4:14 

EA-461919:11 

earlier 62:4 137:4 

150:10 170:6 199:10 

216:14 224:9 242:10 

251:19 

earth222:17 248:21 

249:4,5,14,18 250:2 

easier 254:22 255:3 

easily 178:21 209:5 

225:13 

east 142:1 222:21 224:5 

224:8 262:17 264:1,2 

265:5,18 266:15,20 

266:21 267:2,3,8,9, 16 

268:1 

eastbound 222:14 

easy 169:22 

Ebenol178:19 

Echo-93:17 

Echo-Delta- 93:15 

Ed 22:9 92:18 

edge214:17 267:14 

edited 160:6 162:7 

253:18 278:16,16,17 

editing 253:16 

Edward 3:3 93:3,15 

effect 13:12 245:3 

efficiency 14:13 

egregious 29:19 

eight 78:6 111:1 255:21 

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enforcements 52:2 

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error 106:22 

errors 56:3 

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evidence 8:6 9:9 17:18 

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excused 92:5 135:16 

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exhibiting 131:8 

exhibits 6:6,18 7:16 8:8 

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exist 53:12 166:7 

existed 118:1 

exit214:17 224:2 236:7 

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experience 38:5 68:20 

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expert 4:19 5:13 20:16 

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expert's 31:15 

experts 20:16 229:20 

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explain 106:18182:15 

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explanation 270:7 

expressing 143:18 

extend 224:7 

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extensive 68:20 

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extent81:5,6 103:13 

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extremely 183:10 

eye26:4135:21176:17 

eyeball177: 1 

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face 248:21 249:3,5 

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facility 116:5,6 121:3 

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fact 17:6 20:15 33:7,18 

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fly54:6122:9 201:10,17 

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frontline 38:14 45:18 

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Washington DC 

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gentleman's 99:6 

getting 119:16 122:16 

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hazards 224:13 

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he'll 285: 11,17 

head 68:1 234:8 235:1 

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helpful18:13 21:15 

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heretofore 6:15 8:12 

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high 78:20 141:21 

higher 262:13 

highest 120:19 222:11 

Highway 148:3 

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holes 77:10,14 

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Washington DC 

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hook 76:14 

hooked 76:13,15 

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horizon 249:14,18 

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horses 140:8 142:14 

hour91:19137:10,11 

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hours 141:15,16 

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HST 110:21 

icon 223:22 

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information 67:2,17 

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informing 115:15 

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initio 16:11 

inquiry 56:6 

inside252:16 

inspected 25:13 

inspection 63:10 

inspector22:5,10 24:3 

24:4,5,7 25:18,20 

36:6 37:2,10 38:11 

39:13,18 45:1 83:12 

84:6 92:18 94:13,16 

94:19,20 95:12 96:6 

98:5,12 100:5 125:14 

130:4 133:5 134:16 

inspector's 27:7 81:15 

82:4 

inspectors 25:13 152:8 

instance 28:9 84:3 

121:14 291:17 

instances 15:13 73:15 

183:7 255:5 

instruct 136:4 

instruction 95:7 233:15 

instructional142:2 

instructor 38:7 231:19 

231:20 233:10,11 

236:10,22 237:3 

instructors 185:20 

229:3 

instrument 38:8 

instrumentation 225:7 

intend 30:11 

intends 22:2 

interactions 129:13 

interference 183:3 

intermediate 76:19 

intermixed 196:11 

lnternational1 :5 4:8 

5:9,1114:925:15 

27:18 32:6 52:16 64:9 

67:20 80:12,16 81:12 

84:13117:18119:8 

125:4,10,21126:8 

142:19143:13 

interpretation 171:10 

interrogatories 15:9,14 

15:16 

interrupt 16:16 

intervals 17 4:18 

intervening 18:11 

interviewed 66:6 

introduce 4:11,17 5:6 

30:11 

introduced 98:17164:1 

introducing 5:17 

investigate 67:13 97:1 

124:17129:15 

investigated 22:6 25:14 

55:12,13 56:12 68:6 

86:17,19151:17 

investigating 49:3,7 

67:14115:16 

investigation 25:19,21 

27:10,12 32:11 37:14 

38:19 39:5,10 42:17 

45:14,22 46:1 ,5, 10 

48:4,13,17,18 49:1,9 

49:12,15 50:7,11,19 

51:10,11,19 52:7,14 

55:14,21 56:2,7,22 

57:22 60:2,4 61:9 

62:11 63:1 65:16 66:2 

68:4 69:10,16 80:11 

80:19,21 81:16 86:14 

89:13,16 98:7,8 101:9 

101:20 103:17 104:9 

104:12 115:12,12 

117:8,12118:4119:3 

119:10,21121:11,16 

122:20 123:14 124:2 

125:6,12,20 126:4 

127:3,4 128:2,12 

130:1,19,22 131:5,12 

132:1,14 

investigations 87:6 

95:1104:11 

investigative 12:15 

27:8 39:12 42:19 

47:15 58:7 84:2 

investigator 22:6 

invisible 257:3,4 

invoking 20:8 

involved 27: 14 29:4 

32:22 38:12 63:15 

77:16 95:13 119:10 

123:10 124:2 142:21 

237:21 249:22 

involves 77:18 

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Washington DC 

Volume 1 

310 

involving 14:4 298:8 

irrelevant 164:3,10 

Island 245:8 

issue 11:413:5 14:10 

14:1916:4,1817:1,14 

17:14,20 18:3,9,16,21 

26:20 27:3,13 28:3 

31:12 32:16 57:5,12 

57:22 60:7 78:12 

166:10 228:16 246:17 

issued 12:16,20 39:9 

46:451:1253:161:9 

95:1,2 

issues5:19,2211:2 

18:22 51:17 55:18 

item 82:5 

J 

January 13:8 22:7 

25:20 42:10,10,12 

43:14 73:11,12,16 

86:5 87:7 103:19,22 

104:19105:5 152:14 

179:14 

Jason 282:8,9,10 

Jeanine 5:14 

Jerry 39:9,9 66:6,8 

100:9,15127:8 

job 37:22 94:1,9,18 

95:12 140:20 145:17 

284:1 290:1 

joint 123:17 

judging 266:8 

judicial14:13 

July 150:18 279:3 

jump 79:21 80:3,8 81:9 

129:21 143:14 144:12 

144:13,18 174:17,20 

178:7 183:20 186:17 

191:4,9,15,20192:12 

193:12,21 197:15 

200:16 208:18 211:8 

214:1 219:7,8 221:20 

222:10,13,15 225:14 

229:13 231:3,5,8 

235:22 240:17 244:12 

246:14 251:22 260:8 

260:22 261:21 262:3 

262:6,6 263:7,22 

265:8,15268:11,14 

290:21 292:1 

jumped 246:19 

jumper 77:12 113:20 

114:5,12122:4 

123:10,15,17124:3 

173:13 188:13 219:7 

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244:3,8,19 245:1 

246:8,12,15,22 

248:19 249:3 251:17 

275:10,11 276:5 

jumper's 246:19 

jumpers 29:3 32:22 

33:3 59:14 61:2 72:12 

73:17,21 77:19 78:6,7 

78:19 81:17 82:14 

99:13 106:9 109:13 

110:11,17111:2,4,8 

111:10,19,21112:4 

112:22113:5,10,16 

114:13 127:5,12,21 

128:1,9,13169:14 

184:9 185:7,16 

197:18 198:1,9 

205:14 210:7,11 

212:22 213:1 214:16 

219:7 224:2,4 230:22 

231:17 249:21 250:8 

251:7 252:11,13 

255: 19 260: 11 '15 

263:18 268:6,16,20 

269:1 ,4 272:6 290:12 

290:15 293:18 

jumpers' 231:6 

jumping 32:21 59:7 

61:3 64:22 67:21 

116:20125:21126:10 

143:6,9,21 144:9 

228:21 284:9 291:11 

jumps 28:22 32:14 63:1 

68:11141:22 142:4 

186:6 231:1 

jurisdiction 12:9,12,12 

14:3 16:6 18:10 26:21 

jurisdictional16:5, 10 

jury 164:9 

K 

K-y-1-e 37:4 

keep 135:21 137:18 

187:12189:11192:16 

193:22 197:1 198:17 

199:1,15 210:12 

211:22213:6214:11 

218:18 257:5 261:12 

277:4 295:21 296:1 

King's 140:19 

knew282:16 289:15,17 

knots 191:14 269:11 

270:13 272:12,22 

273:17,22 274:1,6,6 

275:1,21 

knowing 241:8 

(202) 234-4433 

knowledge 28:20 52:12 

52:13 67:19 72:20 

88:5117:21131:2,6 

157:17 158:19 159:17 

230:7 233:21 239:3 

268:12 294:1 

known31:1898:20 

142:18 

knows 232:16 

Kyle 3:3 22:5 36:6,14 

37:4 44:5 131:14 

139:11140:2 

L 

L2:12 

labeled 82:4 

ladies 98:16 

lady 62:10 

Lagoon 143:4 

LAI48:11 

land 71:13,15 234:18 

landed 265:15 

landing 72:15,16 145:7 

146:15,16 147:19 

148:6 175:17 224:5 

265:5,16,21 

language 85:16 219:14 

227:18 

lapse 233:12 

large 180:9 245:4 254:8 

260:7 

largely 229:2 

larger 50:5 189:6 

late 19:7,16 

launched 38:19 

law 1:19 2:13 4:5 16:13 

17:918:1128:1129:1 

33:7123:4151:11 

163:17,21164:9,19 

164:19 165:18,19 

166:9 229:11 

lawful 283:20 

lay79:16119:19171:5 

219:15 

layer73:18 74:21 75:1 

75:5,7,9,12 76:22 

78:16 106:9 111:5,22 

113:6114:13175:5 

178:10 180:9 199:12 

201:10 203:22 225:18 

240:1 '1 0,16 241:1,6,7 

241:11 '13, 14, 16,18 

241:20 242:1,3,9,16 

242:17 243:9 244:10 

245:11 251:4,18 

253:10 265:6 

layer's 75:9 

layers 78:15 108:22 

109:2,5 235:11 236:5 

239:12 242:13 

leadership 178:17 

learned 143:5 

leave 240:6 275:7 

leaving 10:19 252:14 

262:1 

lecturer 95:8 

left 5:9,12 136:20 

146:15 147:15,20 

149:18 177:21,22 

178:2 188:3194:9,10 

194:10,11201:11,12 

201:13,18,19 202:9 

206:4 211:16 213:20 

218:1 219:1 222:6,18 

223:2 242:20 291:1 

291:12 

left-hand 193:9 223:20 

legal5:15101:17 

106:16 117:22 118:6 

159:11280:19281:4 

length 35:9 253:22 

254:1 271:17 

lengthy 137:3 138:9 

lens 149:5 271 :6,6,8, 17 

lesser85:6 

let's 25:2 58:10 60:20 

92:7,14 137:8,14 

138:19172:16179:15 

182:11 204:15 226:3 

239:16 240:5,20 

243:21 250:17 255:13 

256:10 258:12 263:11 

264:14 266:10 267:1 

281:14299:2 

letter30:19 31:12 39:4 

39:10 46:5 48:12,17 

48:1849:1,12,14 

51:11,16 52:6 59:21 

61:9,1169:1680:11 

80:19 98:8117:8,11 

117:16131:22132:13 

279:2 280:2 

letters 42:17 

letting 59:11 

level210:21 

levels 242:11 

liable 229: 12 

license 141:13 

licensed 229:3 

life 29:20 

light 242:22 243:10 

262:12 

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Washington DC 

Volume 1 

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lighter 243:5,5 253: 1 0 

Lima-Echo-Novembe ... 

93:18 

limine 10:9 

limit 16:10 

limitations 145:20 

limited 156:16 

limits 119:19 

line 277:4 

link 38:16,17 39:2 98:11 

106:2 112:10 

links 97:18,22 

list 10:12 

listen 35:6 190:22 

listened 289:6 

listening 172:2 

litany 122:19 

litigation 38:1 

little 102:8 148:22 

170:12 173:5 181:16 

182:4,7 183:22 

184:20 186:6,20 

192:4194:9,10,14,21 

195:20196:10,19,20 

197:17,20 198:3 

199:4,21 203:15 

206:6,11 '17 207:2 

210:3 212:6 213:11 

216:1 218:6 224:10 

240:21263:11,16 

289:14 296:18 

lived 282:16 

load 145:17 179:7 

181:1183:19184:9 

185:17 224:7,7 

260:13 

loaded 183:19 

loading 186:15 273:3 

loath 17:12 

local85:16 

located50:1 71:12 

72:12 143:4 146:5,22 

147:4,5 

location 78:9 145:4 

148:9 173:15 

log 130:1,2 

logged 141:17,22 142:4 

logistical291 :21 

logs 99:18130:10 

L0148:5,12 

long 21:14 38:3 67:6 

94:14 140:5,13167:7 

210:19 236:17 237:7 

260:21 277:6 291:20 

longer 156:8,12 186:6 

206:17 296:18 

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longstanding 279:5 

look 18:319:14 51:7 

57:12 69:22 70:4 

101:12102:8,10 

104:2,19,20111:16 

112:16,18115:15,18 

117:4 132:3,5152:15 

163:18 172:8 196:21 

201:9 227:11,17 

245:18 256:15 259:22 

260:4,5 261 :22 

262:12,20 264:17 

272:2 

look-see 262:4 

looked49:21 51:22 

62:15 69:8 70:3 73:3 

75:15,19 85:22 

144:18 197:8 260:6 

looking 79:7 106:19 

109:20,20111:9 

112:21 122:20 154:2 

158:14 164:5169:9 

172:4 173:18,18,19 

173:20,22 176:15,17 

176:20 177:9 189:17 

197:4 218:13 219:20 

223:17 241:2,5,10 

244:7 245:17 249:11 

249:13,17 250:1 

251:5 252:3 253:3 

254:15 257:5 263:14 

263:15 265:5 266:15 

266:20 267:2,9,10,12 

270:20 284:1 291:20 

292:20 

looks 146:14152:20 

176:7 177:18 178:9 

182:16 201:15 205:22 

255:16 265:6,20 

266:16 270:2,7 280:6 

Los2:6 

lose 208:2 251:21 290:1 

losing 178:22 

lost 158:22 159:4 162:2 

252:2 

lot 35:12 37:12,22 44:4 

142:7 145:9 147:7 

162:22 182:20 190:13 

224:17 244:13 247:18 

247:21 279:7 288:14 

290:8 

low60:16 

lower79:3 180:14 

187:7 188:2 189:19 

193:1 195:16197:7 

198:21 213:20 214:22 

(202) 234-4433 

221:6 241:12,20 

242:1,9,16 

lowest 83:9 222:11 

lunch 137:9,11,13 

138:20,21 139:2 

296:15 

M 1:18 

M-4:21 

magically 256:21 

magnetic 223:19,20 

magnification 254:14 

main 11:4 120:22 

253:11 

mainland 284:2 

major 225:19 

majority 167:4,9 

making 10:15 124:2 

159:14 210:10 264:16 

292:14 

management 53:16 

94:6 125:15 

manager 38:15 45:18 

51:13 95:15 96:11 

116:16 

manager's 116:8 

managers 50:18 

mandate 35:15 234:1,4 

mandatory 163:22 

manifest42:17,21 46:2 

67:3 129:21145:8,14 

145:16146:5 291:19 

manifests 39:6,8 

manner 58:6 283:20 

manufacturer 234:1,4 

map 175:9 

March 13:9,9 22:11,11 

22:11 25:21 105:18 

112:9 114:18153:1 

153:17 186:5 191:4 

197:14 204:19 209:22 

214:2 258:22 

marginal259:16 

Marine 224:21 

mark3:5111:19113:4 

114:12 

marked 6:16 7:14 8:13 

9:3 39:19 40:15 42:3 

43:2,5 44:17 96:16 

97:12 133:11 134:7 

149:12,15 166:13 

276:17 

Mashima 98:13 

Mashimo 130:5 

match 162:15 

matches 103:11 

material136:16 229:19 

matter 1 :4 88:9 245:9 

matters 5:13 18:14 

McCowan 4:19,21,21 

5:4 23:5,7,13 24:2 

137:21138:4 172:12 

281:18 295:13 296:9 

297:9,19 298:18 

299:4 

mean 37:11,17 53:4 

57:21 63:16 70:16,19 

71:1977:181:283:6 

106:12 109:7 110:9 

111:7113:7114:7,15 

121:4145:15185:2 

191:9 202:2,15 

203:16,17 219:14 

247:9 252:9,10 

253:12 255:2,3 

260:10,14 268:3 

279:4 

Meaning 108:21 

meaningless 72:10 

162:5 

means 16:1121:1 53:5 

56:20 91:18 108:13 

184:17187:6 229:11 

264:11 

meant 84:16 107:22 

111:9,12113:2 

120:14147:17 248:10 

286:22 

measured 107:2 

media 76:20 168:12 

189:3 

medium 156:2 

meet 131:9 

mega 149:6 

memory 217:10 

menacing 282:15 

mention 106:18 189:14 

mentioned 20:4 39:21 

65:2 83:5 85:20 99:11 

123:20131:20133:6 

147:8 188:20 194:22 

208:13 222:19 223:15 

mentioning 84:1 

merit 35:12 

merits 219:17 

met6:410:8 45:8101:5 

227:8 

meta data 158:17,18,19 

162:2 271:19 

meteorological253:7 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC 

Volume 1 

312 

meteorology 235: 12 

245:6 261:18 

meter 175:14 

Miami2:15 

micro 273:11,14 

microphone 12:1 

middle 140:1,1148:5 

217:5 

mile 224:5,8 247:13,15 

252:6 

miles 180:10 222:1 

224:8 244:10 247:11 

247:16,17 262:16 

military 224:18 

mind 253:8 277:5 

297:15 

minimum 234:6,7,13 

minute54:10 111:18 

113:3 114:12 167:2 

169:14 170:3 185:4 

195:10197:18 217:17 

minutes 90:21 91:20 

111:1135:14179:19 

186:9197:15 204:20 

214:4,5 255:22 

256:22 261:5,11,20 

281:19 294:16 

missed 210:4 

mist 253:2,6,13 

mistake 12: 17 

Moana 1:11 

model1 03:21 

Mokeleia 223:14 

moment 18:2 21:18 

54:9 56:13142:11,12 

170:22 221:12 248:21 

279:20 281:7 286:1 

297:9 

momentarily 16:16 

23:17 214:19 

moments 91:1 152:2 

monitor47:12 135:12 

288:14 

monitoring 190:9 

monopoly 31:7 

months 86:21 

moot 10:15 

morning 4:3 11:1 

138:12 281:18 294:12 

295:13 296:17,22 

motion 10:9,14,15,21 

13:1118:15 34:5 

35:12 266:10 

motivated 31:3 279:6 

motivation 29:8 31:5,6 

60:8,12 278:12 

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279:14 283:10 

mountain 182:17 

mountains 72:2 225:17 

225:21 

mounted 275:20 

mouse 188:15194:11 

206:4 209:9,11 215:3 

215:5 

mouth 209: 14 

move6:319:2,2141:10 

43:19 89:12,15 97:3 

133:18135:4 155:9 

161:21179:11,14 

185:9 276:11 277:12 

moved 43:20 276:16 

moves 155:9 

moving 16:16 137:19 

177:13 193:11 217:3 

269:11270:12,18,19 

272:11,22 273:21 

274:4,5,8,13,17 

275:20,20 282:2 

296:1 

multi-engine 38:7 

multiple 70:11 78:14 

109:2,4113:6114:14 

144:16 160:21161:8 

161:11,14 235:11 

239:12 242:13 288:2 

N 

n-k140:1 

name 4:13,13,20,21 5:7 

37:3,4 67:5 93:14 

95:3 99:6 100:9 

139:21,22140:1,1,2 

narrowed 10:4 

National140:21 

nature49:5 134:1151:5 

near59:4 175:8 202:8 

203:5 208:13 215:7 

necessarily 241:22 

249:19 260:16 

necessary 33:18 204:6 

298:13 

necessitating 29: 16 

need 5:2 9:21 17:16 

35:17 90:18 91:18 

131:21135:4137:10 

137:12 169:3 235:4 

240:7 294:14,15 

295:7,20 297:8,13 

needed 18:4 89:12,19 

90:2,15 131:16 

needs 140:9 

negative 50:9 171:22 

(202) 234-4433 

284:14 286:19 

neither64:6164:10 

275:10,10,13 

net14:13 

never 15:15 28:20 

49:19 50:4 51:6 52:1 

52:1,4 89:14 157:9 

252:17 288:17,19 

new 160:17165:17 

night 19:16 

Nine-198:6 

Nine-Bravo-212:21 

Nine-Bravo-Whiskey 

187:2 

Nine-Zero-Zero-Sierr ... 

179:10 

Niner-Bravo-Whiskey 

187:5 190:11 

Niner-Eight-Niner183: 17 

Nino 290:8 

NOA235:14 

noise 222:7 

noisy 210:20 

non-compliance 

130:21 

normal69:22 224:2 

290:9 

normally 96:1 98:9 

104:21129:6 221:19 

223:15 249:7 

north 221:22 222:9,19 

225:19 

northeast 146:6 175:15 

221:22 222:21 

northwest 263:16 

nose 209: 14, 15 

note 19:11 175:2 229:1 

264:6 

noted 183:11 

notes 17:10 103:6 

notice 1:13 4:16 12:22 

13:1 65:4 77:8 

noticed 143:7 173:2 

notices 12:15 

notification 49:8 

November 179:9 

183:17 263:2 

November-Foxtrot 

263:2 

November-Niner186: 16 

NTSB 19:10,11 

number 4:9 6:19 7:17 

8:15 9:515:10,11,18 

19:11 40:17 42:5 43:7 

44:19 87:12 96:18 

97:14 104:3,17 

133:13134:9 149:16 

166:16 258:13,16,20 

276:19 

numbers 104:6,6 105:7 

105:10 

numerous 70:3 251:2 

0 

o'clock 135:19,19 296:9 

297:17 298:12,15 

299:3 

oath 226:11 

Objecition 54:19 

object 41:16 44:2 60:1 

67:9 97:17 130:13 

151:5160:1193:11 

204:3 213:18 219:12 

250:4 275:20 

objected 15:9,17 

202:12 

objection 6:6 7:9 8:9 

9:2 18:8 29:21 30:3 

31:1 41:14,15 43:22 

44:1 56:15 59:17 

60:19 63:3,7 69:4,11 

79:12,17 97:8,10 

107:9 119:15 120:1 

122:15123:7 133:21 

134:5143:17 144:4 

151:3,12 204:7 

219:18 227:20 229:5 

230:3 232: 12 233:5 

250:20 276:14,16 

278:2,21 279:14 

283:7,12 287:19 

objections 8:20 

obscured 180:20 

213:21214:19252:15 

obscuring 242:3 

observation 72:5 74:20 

78:9110:18252:14 

observations 279: 11 

observe 59:4 61:2 

64:21 75:6,8 78:14 

109:2 111:13 125:20 

144:16 251:17 

observed 59:14,16 60:7 

60:9 61:5,8 62:8 63:2 

65:3,5,6 74:8 75:11 

98:11110:12,15,16 

111: 1 0 113:12, 13 

126:13 144:2 151:17 

214:19 252:13,13 

279:10 

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Washington DC 

Volume 1 

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observers 136:14 

observing 72:6 230:21 

obtain 87:20 129:20 

130:2 

obtained 89:16 128:14 

128:15 

obvious 144:13 209:13 

obviously 35:4 59:9 

148:22 171:17 

occasion 59:3 

occasional77:10 

occasionally 224:22 

290:5,15 

occur 144:14 248:8 

260:9 289:18 290:4 

occurred 28:19 48:22 

73:12 83:15 103:18 

112:15143:7 217:13 

occurrence 105:5,6 

occurring 70:14 190:18 

254:20 291:3 

occurs 240:18 244:14 

244:16 

ocean72:1182:17 

225:18 

offered 8:8 9:13 250:13 

offering 202:15 

office 1:2 2:4 37:8 39:2 

45:18 49:20 50:11 

64:2 94:6,8,11 '13 

95:15,16 96:11 98:19 

98:22116:16,17 

143:12 144:8145:17 

290:14 293:22 294:4 

officer 116:8 

Offices 2:13 

officially 140:15 

Ombudsman 31:12 

52:6,10 59:21 117:15 

118:19 

on board 184:10,16 

291:2 

once 12:9 87:18 89:16 

125:14 164:2 229:7 

250:5 

one's 186:6 

one-eighth 77:5 

one-minute 144:15 

ones 6:7 9:13 24:13 

150:2 153:4168:9 

182:5 209:13 248:1 

ongoing 294:19 

onsite 64:20 

open74:1 86:15108:21 

173:3 174:17,22 

175:1177:18180:16 

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181:10 182:3,5 

231:18 247:12 248:12 

296:3 

opened 75:20,20,21 

113:21114:4123:4 

175:3 178:8 232:20 

236:18 250:8 

opening 19:22 20:3 

22:17 23:17 24:9 25:8 

26:16 29:22 31:1 

35:20 75:13,16 

109:14114:9176:8 

188:2 189:15 192:10 

205:13 210:18,18,20 

211:5 217:2 231:1,22 

232:17 233:2 234:2 

245:20 246:13 247:1 

247:4 248:19 249:15 

openings 231:6,12 

opens 174:21 247:22 

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Washington DC 

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Washington DC 

Volume 1 

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Washington DC 

Volume 1 

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Washington DC 

Volume 1 

317 

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Washington DC 

Volume 1 

smaller 189:9 

snivel248:7, 10,11 

software 70:6 

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Volume 1 

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Washington DC 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC 

Volume 1 

322 

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written 41:16 43:12 00:47 180:12 121 28:6 95:8 2-266:7 

44:5 47:7 49:1 131:13 00:59 206:12 123.00190:10 2-6 222:4 259:8 264:9 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www. nealrgross.com 
Volume 1 

324 

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2:51 209:1 29:50 197:21 --~----- 90009-2007 2:6 

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23rd 13:9 22:11 4:40172:18 8000 222:11 261:3 

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28:26197:16 4630114:1 90191:14269:11 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www. nealrgross.com 
1-325 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Pacific International Skydiving 

Before: USDOT/OH 

Date: 12-13-16 

Place: Honolulu, HI 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 234-4433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com