U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

69–953 CC WASHINGTON : 2001

S. HRG. 106–900

JUVENILE INTERVENTION PROGRAMS

THAT WORK

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON YOUTH VIOLENCE

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON

EXAMINING JUVENILE CRIME PREVENTION AND INTERVENTION FUNDING AND STRATEGIES, FOCUSING ON STATE JUVENILE COURT SYSTEM ASSISTANCE, DETENTION SPACE, ALTERNATIVE INTERVENTION

PROGRAMS; AND THE BOYS AND GIRLS CLUBS OF AMERICA

SEPTEMBER 28, 1999

Serial No. J–106–45

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

(

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah, Chairman

STROM THURMOND, South Carolina

CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa

ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania

JON KYL, Arizona

MIKE DEWINE, Ohio

JOHN ASHCROFT, Missouri

SPENCER ABRAHAM, Michigan

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama

BOB SMITH, New Hampshire

PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont

EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts

JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR., Delaware

HERBERT KOHL, Wisconsin

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California

RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin

ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey

CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York

MANUS COONEY, Chief Counsel and Staff Director

BRUCE A. COHEN, Minority Chief Counsel

SUBCOMMITTEE ON YOUTH VIOLENCE

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama, Chairman

BOB SMITH, New Hampshire

JON KYL, Arizona

JOHN ASHCROFT, Missouri

JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR., Delaware

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California

HERBERT KOHL, Wisconsin

KRISTI LEE, Chief Counsel

SHERYL WALTER, Minority Chief Counsel

(II)

(III)

C O N T E N T S

STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS

Page

Sessions, Hon. Jeff, U.S. Senator from the State of Alabama ............................. 1

Biden, Hon. Joseph R., Jr., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware ................ 3

CHRONOLOGICAL LIST OF WITNESSES

Panel consisting of Robbie Callaway, senior vice president, Boys and Girls

Clubs of America, Rockville, MD; Robert J. Martin, chief probation officer/

coordinator, Mobile County Juvenile Court, Mobile, AL; Clyde McGuire,

executive director, Boys and Girls Clubs of South Alabama, Inc., Mobile,

AL; and Richard Pounsberry, chief of police, Seaford, DE ............................... 5

ALPHABETICAL LIST AND MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Callaway, Robbie:

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 7

News Article: By Mark E. Vogler, Eagle-Tribune, dated April 9, 1999 11

Martin, Robert J.:

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 13

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 14

McGuire, Clyde:

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 15

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 17

Pounsberry, Richard:

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 18

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 19

(1)

JUVENILE INTERVENTION PROGRAMS

THAT WORK

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1999

U.S. SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE ON YOUTH VIOLENCE, COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, Washington, DC.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:02 p.m., in room

SD–226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Jeff Sessions (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Also present: Senator Biden.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF SESSIONS, A U.S.

SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ALABAMA

Senator SESSIONS. The subcommittee will come to order.

For the last 3 years, as chairman of the Youth Violence Subcommittee, I have advocated the need for the Federal Government

to assist the State juvenile court system by providing much needed

money for detention space, alternative intervention programs, and

other such activities. And I have been met sometimes with resistance from those who say the answer to juvenile crime is more prevention programs.

I really am not opposed to prevention programs, but I believe

many of these programs that work through the juvenile court system are indeed the best prevention programs that you can have,

and indeed we have about $4.2 billion being spent through a multitude of different agencies on youth crime prevention programs.

But I do believe that prevention is good.

At a hearing before this committee, GAO has reported that we did spend $4.2 billion on prevention programs last year. Many of

those they determined were duplicative or lacked coordination.

Moreover, in a DOJ-commissioned study, it was concluded that

most crime prevention funds are being spent where they are needed least. That was a Department of Justice study very recently.

So I believe that more attention must be paid by the Congress

to the programs that we are funding. I also believe that we must

require any group that receives juvenile crime prevention grants to

work in coordination with the juvenile justice system and each

other to make sure that the monies are spent effectively and according to an overall plan to deal with delinquency.

I think there is a false myth about the juvenile court system, and

you will hear from some people today who have been involved in

it for a long time and I think will make that clear. The idea is that

they are only for punishment, that the juvenile court systems are

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a punishment system. That was never their design. In fact, it was

always designed to intervene to reduce delinquency and try to turn

the lives of young people around.

So I would like to highlight today a prevention/intervention program that is working. The Boys and Girls Clubs of America received $43 million last year from the Federal Government, and this

committee and Senator Hatch and our subcommittee were very

supportive of that.

One of the features of these Boys and Girls Clubs is that they

are actively involved with local law enforcement and prevention

through the juvenile court system. So I believe that an examination

of those programs prove that the best prevention programs are

those that work with juvenile justice, certainly the ones that are

most effectively identifying the kids most at risk.

As an example of this coordination, I am proud to highlight a

partnership between the Boys and Girls Clubs and the juvenile

court system in Mobile, AL, my hometown. Through the resources

and efforts of the Boys and Girls Clubs, several very effective programs have been implemented to prevent juvenile crime. Two detention programs, one for boys and one for girls, and an alternative

school are now operating. These programs, which have enjoyed

great success, are a crucial part of this juvenile system.

So I would like to thank Mr. Clyde Martin, the Executive Director of the Mobile Boys and Girls Club, and Bob Martin, the Chief

Juvenile Probation Officer and a friend for many, many years, for

coming here today to testify about their successful partnership.

Also joining us today is Police Chief Richard Pounsberry, from

Seaford, DE. Chief Pounsberry has been actively involved in another partnership between Boys and Girls Clubs and local law enforcement, and we look forward to hearing about the successes they

have enjoyed.

We also very much appreciate Robbie Callaway, Vice President

of the Boys and Girls Clubs of America, for being here today. We

look forward to hearing from him about the national effort of the

Boys and Girls Clubs to affect the lives of at-risk and troubled

youth.

Indeed, we can do a better job than we are doing. We need to,

just like a private business does everyday, look at what we are

doing and see if we can do better with the resources we have. And

when we have to have it, we need to find additional resources.

Before we get started, I would like to show a video. It will take

about 10 minutes. I think it will be enlightening to us as we examine some of the ways in which we can have partnerships between

the juvenile court systems and other agencies.

[Videotape shown.]

Senator SESSIONS. Well, that was an excellent film. Camp Martin, your namesake, Bob Martin; it is good to have you here, and

I think that does indicate some of the advantages that come from

creativity, the commitment to improvement and partnership between public and private agencies.

We are glad to have our ranking member, Senator Biden, here,

and maybe you would like to make some comments, Joe, before we

get started.

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STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR., A U.S. SENATOR

FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE

Senator BIDEN. Just very briefly, I wish everyone in the country,

and even more importantly I wish everyone in the Congress from

both parties, House and Senate, could take the time to understand

the positive impact of these programs. The Boys and Girls Clubs

is the most significant.

I have worked with the Boys and Girls Clubs, as you have, for

a long time now. I am a big fan. I know what they have done in

my State. I often have told the story, there was the chief of police

in Dover, DE, and back when I was writing the first crime bill, the

so-called Crime Prevention Act, the Clinton bill, whatever you want

to call it, the bill with 100,000 cops in it, it passed and I was really

full of myself, happy I got it done.

I went around the State and talked to all the police agencies and

all the folks in the State, and everybody was real happy about the

prospect. And I turned to this chief, who, it might please you to

know, is a very conservative Republican, and I said, Chief Smith,

what can I do for you, what do you need?

And I expected him to look at me and say, well, what I need is,

you know, 20 more cops or more equipment, or whatever. He said

you can build me another Boys and Girls Club in West Dover. I

said, I beg your pardon? And he took out three-by-five cards; he

wasn’t known any more than I am for his computer wizardry. He

took out three-by-five cards that he had put together in his file in

the Dover Police Department, and the chief knows this guy.

And he pointed out to me that since the Boys and Girls Club had

been built in East Dover, crime had been down 30 percent, arrests

down 30 percent in that neighborhood, that area, and truancy was

down 28 percent. So he said, you can build me another Boys and

Girls Club. That was when I started working with Robbie and

when a lot of our colleagues wouldn’t work on whether or not we

would spend that prevention money the way I thought we should

the prevention money in that bill.

We figured if we make Boys and Girls Clubs, because they have

wide, wide constituencies—I will conclude on this point. One of the

good things about the Boys and Girls Clubs and the reason why

they are the first that I am aware of since I have been a Senator— I have been a Senator 27 years. I literally wrote into the bill, with

the help of my colleagues, a provision that Boys and Girls Clubs

explicitly would get some funding, and there was a method in my

madness in doing that.

There are more Republicans, there are more Democrats, there

are more CEO’s, there are more big-shots in each of our towns and

cities who are on the boards of Boys and Girls Clubs. And I knew

when they picked up the phone and called conservative Senators

like you and others and they said maybe we should invest in prevention, you all would say, well, that is not a bad idea. The chairman of the board of Pepsi-Cola is calling me, or the bishop of the

Episcopal Church, or the Baptist whatever was calling.

And it has worked, it has worked. This is working. The mother

says this is not rocket science. She always talks about, you know,

the things that are obvious. And Robbie is tired of hearing me say

this. She says from the time I am a kid, an idle mind is the devil’s

4

workshop, idle mind is the devil’s workshop. You give kids nothing

to do between 2:30 p.m. and dark and I guarantee you they are

going to find something to do, and a 75-percent shot is going to be

something you don’t like them doing. That is the big thing.

This is a heck of a program you all have down in your State,

first-rate, and much, much more extensive than what exists in

many other parts of the country in dealing with an identified clientele that is already in serious trouble, or is likely to be.

I will conclude by saying I think the overwhelming positive impact of Boys and Girls Clubs beyond all the statistics is simply it

gives kids a structured place to be. It is an outfit that has serious,

serious people in the community invested in it. It has private and

public sector money now, mostly private money. And, lastly, it literally gives kids a place to go.

I am really pleased, Mr. Chairman, you are holding this hearing.

I am really pleased we have finally reached a point in the Congress

where I think we have a consensus on Boys and Girls Clubs. And

I think if you asked the witnesses today, are there other outfits

that could do good things, too, I doubt whether they will tell you

the only prevention facility in all of America is Boys and Girls

Clubs. I think they might tell you there are other avenues, too, and

I hope we can get focused on it.

I appreciate your doing this, and I, in a very parochial way, welcome my chief here. He and the town got themselves a new Boys

and Girls Club and I am anxious to hear what he says about the

impact of that. So thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SESSIONS. Thank you, Senator Biden, and I appreciate

your consistent leadership on these issues, and crime particularly,

for many years. A lot of the good laws, when I was a Federal prosecutor, you helped pass and they really made a difference. I hope

today we will begin to think through how to best do prevention,

how we can best affect positively the lives of kids who are at risk.

So let me ask our group to step forward, if you would, at this

time. I think we have you on a clock, but if you finish early and

want to submit your written statements, that would be fine, too.

I think the panel has been introduced.

I think a vote has just started.

Senator BIDEN. Do you want me to go and vote and come back

or do you want us to go together, or how do you want to do it? It

doesn’t matter.

Senator SESSIONS. We do have a vote on now and Senator Biden

is going to go and cast his vote and then he can come back and

maybe we won’t be interrupted.

Mr. Callaway, it is a delight to have you with us. We are indeed

impressed with Boys and Girls Clubs nationally, and I know you

know on a per capita and size, Clyde McGuire’s is one of the biggest in the country and one of the most successful.

We would love to hear your remarks at this time.

5

PANEL CONSISTING OF ROBBIE CALLAWAY, SENIOR VICE

PRESIDENT, BOYS AND GIRLS CLUBS OF AMERICA, ROCKVILLE, MD; ROBERT J. MARTIN, CHIEF PROBATION OFFICER/

COORDINATOR, MOBILE COUNTY JUVENILE COURT, MOBILE, AL; CLYDE McGUIRE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BOYS

AND GIRLS CLUBS OF SOUTH ALABAMA, INC., MOBILE, AL;

AND RICHARD POUNSBERRY, CHIEF OF POLICE, SEAFORD,

DE

STATEMENT OF ROBBIE CALLAWAY

Mr. CALLAWAY. Mr. Chairman, it is good to be here with you. I

am not going to read my statement. I heard the statement about

the time. I am going to be quick.

We have over 2,300 Boys and Girls Clubs now in the country,

serving over three million kids. You know, it is great to have Senator Biden here, and Senator Biden has been a longtime supporter.

We were at about 1,200,000 kids when I met Senator Biden; we are

now at three million.

You came in and took over this subcommittee, and I remember

one of the first meetings I had with you when you were here and

you talked about Boys and Girls Clubs working. And we talked

about prevention that works and that is what we have. I am glad

you brought these gentlemen because these are some of the best

people we have in the country.

For the record, we are serving some of the toughest kids in the

Nation. We have 359 of our clubs that are in public housing. We

actually now have three clubs in detention centers, working with

the courts, getting those kids that are in detention—instead of putting them further into the system, we are bringing them back and

putting them into the Boys and Girls Clubs.

Does it work? On September 15, we had a Louis Harris survey

that was released at our congressional breakfast here on the Hill.

Some of you were here. And the results of that Lou Harris independent survey that they did was 80 percent of the alumni that

they surveyed said that the club staff helped them to understand

right from wrong. Sixty-five percent said the club was the only

place to go after school in their neighborhood, and over 50 percent

of those surveyed stated that the club really saved my life. These

are kids that would have gone further into the system. They said

the Boys and Girls Clubs saved their life.

We have, in Boys and Girls Clubs, a Gang Prevention Through

Targeted Outreach Program that has been funded by the Office of

Juvenile Justice, and it has gotten great support from Shea Bilchik

and the Office of Juvenile Justice. In 1983, we began that program.

Now, we have expanded that to serve kids from gangs.

The results of that program so far within the Boys and Girls

Clubs—this is a follow-up study—93 percent of the youth participating in that program were not re-involved in the juvenile justice

system. This is an intervention program that you are talking about.

Ninety-three percent did not go back into the juvenile justice system.

Senator SESSIONS. And what kind of program was that? Would

you repeat that?

6

Mr. CALLAWAY. That was an intervention program operated in

Boys and Girls Clubs.

Senator SESSIONS. For kids who had been in trouble?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Kids who had been involved with either the police or the courts, and had been sent to the Boys and Girls Clubs

as part of either that—not technically sentenced, but they basically

had been sent to the Boys and Girls Clubs. Ninety-three percent

were not further involved. Thirty-nine percent did better in school

after going back, after the courts sent them to the Boys and Girls

Clubs. You have today Clyde McGuire, who has been a leader, and

we are looking to expand what he does into other Boys and Girls

Clubs around the country. And we have Bob Martin.

Let me get through this even a little faster here and talk just

about a couple kids, read quotes from a couple kids. Our Youth of

the Year from New Hampshire: ‘‘I didn’t have anywhere to go or

anything to do. I would get into a lot of trouble stealing and fighting. I even got arrested. I was then introduced to the Boys and

Girls Clubs after being arrested. Until that moment, I was lost.’’

Let’s look at a girl, Liberty Franklin, who was our national

Youth of the Year, and many of you met her. Counseling and safe

haven was what drew Franklin to the Holmes County Boys and

Girls Club. Raised by a single parent, living in a public housing

community riddled by crime and violence, Franklin found little

support at home from her two older sisters who had been in and

out jail for drug abuse. In addition, it is only with Franklin’s intervention that her mother has been able to stay sober for the last 2

years. This girl became our national Youth of the Year and is now

in college studying to be an orthodontist.

Our Youth of the Year this year is a kid named Martin Banda.

‘‘At the time, I had two choices, either become a member of the

Boys and Girls Club or’’—this is in his words—‘‘or hang out on the

streets of Lemoyne, in public housing. When the Boys and Girls

Club opened, Lemoyne was at the peak of gangs and drugs. It had

an extremely bad reputation which had to be overcome. I thank the

Boys and Girls Club for saving me.’’

One last one and I am going to stop and come back for questions.

This one is very special, and when you talk to some of your colleagues, you talk about a kid in Massachusetts. This is from the

newspaper. This is not what the Boys and Girls Clubs wrote; it is

from the local newspaper. ‘‘Ex-Gang Punk Is a Teen Role Model.

Back in 1995, one of his closest gang pals was killed in a shootout and Hector’s life seemed headed down the same dangerous

road. Even the Dominican native admits he hung around guns, sold

marijuana to get money, and was considered a hopeless street

punk. When he was in the seventh grade, he received straight F’s.

He repeated the eighth grade, after missing more than 90 days of

school.’’

And Hector was about to be turned over to the State Department—you are talking about intervention. He was about to be

turned over to the State Department of Youth Services after being

caught shoplifting. But the Lawrence Boys and Girls Club turned

his life around. A juvenile court judge, a former Boys Club member

himself, just as some police chiefs are former Boys and Girls Club

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members, gave Hector a huge break, releasing him to one of the

club’s voluntary members.

Steve Kelly, of the Boys Club, took Hector under his wing, encouraging him to pursue his studies as well as basketball. Hector

repeated the eighth grade, making the honor roll this time. He

dropped out of school in eighth grade and made the honor roll.

When they talked about Hector, ‘‘He was big in the gangs, to the

point where we thought we were going to lose him.’’ They were

vying for him; they were vying with the Boys and Girls Club for

Hector. Our good Boys and Girls Clubs, like the one Clyde runs,

like the one in Seaford, DE, we will vie with the gang members;

we will go for those kids, we will intervene.

Listen to this. ‘‘But now schools like Harvard, Dartmouth and

Duke are after Hector, and Hector credits the Boys and Girls Club

for saving his life.’’ In Hector’s own words, ‘‘If it wasn’t for them,

I could have ended up one of two ways, dead or in jail.’’ Hector is

going to Dartmouth this year.

Did I make my time? We can go into questions later.

Senator SESSIONS. A very good story, and that 93-percent rate—

I won’t say that I am confident that would continue, but any time

you are approaching anything like that rate, that is extraordinary

and it does make a difference.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Callaway follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF MR. ROBBIE CALLAWAY

Mr. Chairman and Members of the committee, my name is Robbie Callaway and

I am Senior Vice President of Boys & Girls Clubs of America. I am pleased to be

before you today to testify on Boys & Girls Clubs of America’s role in reducing juvenile crime throughout America.

Before I begin, however, I want to take a moment to thank the United States Senate, and especially the Senate Judiciary Committee for helping Boys & Girls Clubs

of America reach an additional 1 million young people over a 5-year period. Last

year alone you helped us average 5 new Boys & Girls Clubs a week and over

200,000 new boys and girls. The effort has been extraordinarily successful. On behalf of our 3 million kids, I thank you.

Boys & Girls Clubs of America

Boys & Girls Clubs of America is a national non-profit organization currently comprising 2,340 local Boys & Girls Club facilities throughout all 50 States, serving

over 3 million young people. It is the only nationwide, facility-based youth agency

with a primary focus on disadvantaged young people.

Among those 2,340 Clubs there are:

• 359 Clubs in public housing

• 47 Clubs on Native American land

• 339 Clubs in schools

• and 200 Clubs on military bases worldwide

Quite literally we are going anywhere where there are kids who need our services.

We surround our kids with caring adults who become positive role models and mentors, and we provide them with a safe positive place to go after school, on the weekends, and during the summer.

Boys & Girls Clubs have a profound impact on their communities. We hear this

from law enforcement officials at every level, from school teachers, from probation

officers, and from shopkeepers.

On September 15, 1999, Louis Harris & Associates released the results of their

independent survey of Boys & Girls Club alumni. The results were overwhelming.

• 80 percent said that the Club staff helped them to understand right from

wrong.

• 65 percent said the Club was the only place to go after school in their neighborhood.

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• Over 50 percent of those surveyed stated that ‘‘* * * the Club really saved my

life.’’

Gang Prevention through Targeted Outreach Program

During the 1980’s Boys & Girls Clubs of America successfully developed and tested the Delinquency Prevention through Targeted Outreach program in response to

the dramatic rise of delinquency in severely distressed neighborhoods across the

country. In 1991, due to increased gang related activity, Boys & Girls Clubs of

America, building upon this success, developed the Gang Prevention through Targeted Outreach program to address this growing need. Still a successful and important program today, this initiative has continuously been funded by the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, U.S. Department of Justice.

The Gang Prevention through Targeted Outreach program uses effective techniques that direct ‘‘at-risk’’ young people to positive alternatives. Through a referral

network linking local Clubs with courts, police, juvenile justice agencies, schools, social service agencies and community organizations, as well as through direct outreach efforts, young people considered to be ‘‘at-risk’’ are recruited and

mainstreamed into Club programs as a diversion from gang activity.

Young people on the right track do not become involved in costly and destructive

behavior. They help others, take responsibility for their own actions and act as role

models to younger children. The Gang Prevention through Targeted Outreach program attempts to provide young people with exciting alternatives to the destructiveness of gangs, and an opportunity to be a valuable asset to the community.

A. HIGHLIGHTS—YOUTH AT-RISK OF DELINQUENCY

• From 1984 to 1990, more than 10,000 ‘‘at-risk’’ youth were recruited and

mainstreamed into programming at more than 200 Clubs.

• We established more than 1,200 formalized linkages with courts, police, schools

and other referring agencies as part of the program.

At the end of the program:

• 93 percent of youth participating were not re-involved with the juvenile justice

system; and

• 39 percent of those youth who returned to the mainstream, demonstrated a

positive change in academic performance.

B. THE OBJECTIVE OF THE GANG PREVENTION THROUGH

TARGETED OUTREACH PROGRAM

• To mobilize community leaders and Club staff to identify their roles and develop

a community strategy and response to juvenile delinquency and gang involvement.

• To identify and recruit youth at-risk of gang involvement and to provide them

with constructive, positive alternatives using staff outreach and a formal referral network.

• To mainstream participants into engaging and relevant Boys & Girls Club programs.

• To case manage, individual progress in the following areas: program participation, academic performance, family involvement and contact with the juvenile

justice system.

Using the Gang Prevention through Targeted Outreach model, each Boys & Girls

Club creates its own program designed specifically to meet the needs of their community.

The focus of this hearing is on ‘‘intervention programs that work.’’ Throughout the

nation there are 10 major intervention programs being operated by local Boys &

Girls Clubs. These programs are in Lawrence, MA; Ventura, CA, San Francisco, CA;

El Monte, CA; Jacksonville, FL; Dallas, TX; St. Paul, MN; North Little Rock, AR;

Albany, GA; and Fort Worth, TX.

For the purposes of this hearing I will highlight two of these programs. I can provide additional information on the others upon request. Also testifying this afternoon is Mr. Clyde McGuire from the Boys & Girls Clubs of South Alabama who is

leading the way in promoting intervention programs through Boys & Girls Clubs.

Boys & Girls Clubs of Ventura, CA—Facing the Future

Facing the Future mandates that youth on probation spend 10 weeks at the Boys

& Girls Club of Ventura, with the express purpose of nurturing and developing soVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:34 Feb 09, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6621 SEPT28.TXT SJUD2 PsN: SJUD2
9

cial skills in young people that enable them to become productive citizens in the

community.

Facing the Future

Thirty-five gang members were enlisted in individual, small and large group activities in the positive, caring and safe environment of a Boys & Girls Club. Strict

rules and expectations are conveyed to the participants at an orientation meeting.

A specific contract is drawn up between the advisor and the gang member, laying

out the exact activities the youth will be involved in during the program. The contract includes regular Boys & Girls Club programs (including prevention programs,

educational programs, and sports programs) and specialty classes involving career

exploration, family planning, independent living, AIDS education, and self-esteem

building.

The probation department does a debriefing with each of the 35 participants to

assess the success of the program and the readiness of these gang members for reentry into mainstream society.

Boys & Girls Clubs of St. Paul—Getting Out Program

Getting Out is a gang intervention/tattoo removal program designed to help young

people, ages 18 and under, escape from gangs and make positive changes in their

lives. Establishment of school/career goals and development of social skills are the

key areas for action in the program. The staff at the Boys & Girls Clubs of St. Paul

helps gang members identify the skills they need to get their life on course and refers them to appropriate programs to meet those needs.

Getting Out

There are six components of Getting Out, designed to help youth leave their gang.

Community agencies, schools, police, juvenile officials, and families are encouraged

to make referrals to the program.

1. Referrals—There are four criteria for acceptance: the gang member must

be 25 years old or younger, be a documented gang member, be interested in

leaving a gang, and have a guardian’s consent for those under age 18.

2. Initial Screening/Volunteer Service—The participant most agree to do 20

hours of community service in order to be accepted into the program.

3. Goal Setting—Five core areas are outlined: community service, education,

job skills, life skills, and development of peer relationships.

4. Monitoring and Further Goal Setting—The program director constantly

monitors the participant, checking on his/her progress and helping them to

overcome any obstacles. Police, probation officials, and school teachers are assessed to get their feedback on the participants progress.

5. Tattoo Removal and Monitoring—This is an important incentive in the program and is therefore put off until the end to encourage completion. Those who

want to leave gangs know that the removal of their gang tattoo is critical to

their safety outside of gangs and their successful reintegration into society.

6. Leaving the Gang—The success of the program is assessed by the future

activities of program participants. Graduates are often used as spokespersons

for the program and to encourage others to leave gangs.

Conclusion

Boys & Girls Clubs of America has a 140 year history of preventing and reducing

juvenile crime. By giving kids a positive place to go after school, on the weekends,

and during the summer, we have helped keep them away from juvenile delinquency

and other damaging habits that adversely affect their lives and harm the life of a

community.

Increasingly, Boys & Girls Clubs are seen as the local experts in intervention, and

are being asked to intervene in the lives of ‘‘at-risk’’, or already delinquent youth,

in an effort to bring them back into the mainstream. As always, our Clubs are responding.

With additional resources targeted directly at intervention however, we can, and

will, respond whenever this committee, and this country, need us.

In closing, I appreciate the opportunity to be here this morning to discuss Boys

& Girls Clubs of America and the role our Clubs have played for the last 140 years.

Our Clubs will continue to support the work of law enforcement officials across

the country, helping to limit juvenile delinquency and to reduce the number of repeat offenders. In the process we are saving kids lives (Louis Harris & Associates

Survey).

10

Once again thank you for the opportunity to testify this morning. If you desire

further information for the record, it will be provided immediately. Thank you Mr.

Chairman.

11

12

13

Senator SESSIONS. I think what we will do now is, if you don’t

mind, we will take a break. When Senator Biden gets back, he can

maybe continue the meeting, and I will join you as soon as I can.

It should not be more than 10 minutes. So we will recess until we

can get this vote over. Thank you so much.

[The subcommittee stood in recess from 2:32 p.m. to 2:46 p.m.]

Senator SESSIONS. I am sorry to have interrupted us with that

necessary thing we do around here every now and then, vote.

Mr. Martin, we are delighted to have you here, and I don’t think

I have told you but I am very proud and pleased that they named

Camp Martin after you and I think that is a very worthy thing. It

indicates the respect with which you are held in south Alabama

and the skill and leadership you have demonstrated more than a

few years on issues that we will be talking about today and have

been for some time in this Senate.

We will be glad to hear from you at this time.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT J. MARTIN

Mr. MARTIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would just

like to say that you have really put a lot of pressure on me today

because following Robbie Callaway is a tough, tough act to have to

follow.

The film really—— Senator SESSIONS. Bob, let me interrupt you. Would you share

with us the length of your involvement and the nature of your involvement in juvenile justice issues before you get started?

Mr. MARTIN. I have been a probation officer since 1973 and have

been chief probation officer since 1976. This is actually the second

time I have come before this committee to testify. I was invited by

Senator Denton to testify back in 1981. So in terms of length, I

have been around for a while.

Senator SESSIONS. And you have visited and studied other centers all over the Nation, I know.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. I have gotten with my staff and tried to

visit as many centers as we can. Basically, I tell people Mr.

McGuire and I are thieves. We go in and we look at good programs

and beg, borrow and steal them, bring them back to Mobile and try

to modify them.

Senator SESSIONS. Very good. I am sorry to interrupt you.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is all right. I was just going to say that the

film did a much better job of saying what I was going to say, and

as a consequence I am going to limit myself to just a few points.

One that I think is especially important is to note that the boot

camp was started with an OJJDP grant in 1992, and that that

grant for $1.9 million spent over a 30-month period has been the

seed money and the catalyst for the programs you have seen on the

film. Those programs now spend $3.5 million each year, so it has

been a real valuable thing to have invested that OJJDP money.

Senator SESSIONS. Both the State funding and the Boys and

Girls Clubs?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. With the Federal money, we started the

boot camp. It impressed everyone so much that the State stepped

in and went into partnership with the city and county. So it is 75

percent State money, 25 percent local money.

14

The other issue or point I want to make is that the guidelines

for the grant call for a public/private partnership. Had it not, this

partnership and what you have seen on that film very well may

have not come about.

The other thing I would like to point is that there is a national

connection for the juvenile court as a result of being partners with

Boys and Girls Clubs. Boys and Girls Clubs has a national office.

Mr. Callaway was very helpful in getting that grant for us. He has

provided us with assistance of all kinds, and even today at lunch

we were sitting there just casually talking with him and he gave

me a perspective that I hadn’t had before, and that is out in California they are beginning to locate Boys and Girls Clubs in detention centers.

Well, as you know, we have the State’s largest detention center,

and the idea of having a Boys and Girls Club come in and do the

programming for the center really makes a lot of sense. It prepares

those kids to go back to their homes and their local Boys and Girls

Clubs. So I am going to be going to California and probably doing

some more stealing.

I will wrap it up by saying this, that back in the 1980’s we had

four very large caseloads, somewhere in the area of 100 cases per

caseload. And the largest and toughest—— Senator SESSIONS. A hundred cases per probation officer?

Mr. MARTIN. I am sorry, per probation officer, that is correct.

And the toughest cases were in four housing board projects. We actually had a probation officer assigned to each project. During the

1980’s, Boys and Girls Clubs were located in each of those four

housing projects. I, in turn, based a probation officer in each of the

four clubs so that there are probation officers working with the

Boys and Girls Clubs personnel with the delinquents in that area.

In 1994, we completely closed that program down and I reassigned the probation officers to other parts of the county because

in all four housing projects there wasn’t a single caseload. I

couldn’t justify having one PO assigned there. So partnering has its

advantages, and I am just here to say that I am glad OJJDP required us to go into one.

Senator SESSIONS. Very good.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Martin follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF ROBERT J. MARTIN

Thank you Mr. Chairman. This is the second time I have had the privilege of appearing before a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on behalf of America’s at-risk

youth. My first appearance occurred more than 18 years ago. Senator Jeremiah

Denton asked me to testify concerning what was then a growing tide of juvenile violence. Little did we imagine then, the terrible extremes this problem would reach

in our society. But I come before you today, confident that we have learned from

hard and bitter lessons about the kinds of programs and approaches which are successful and beginning to reverse this social plague. In Mobile, in Alabama and

through out the nation the rates of crime and juvenile delinquency are receding.

It is not one agency or one discipline or one kind or set of programs that have

begun to reverse this thirty year or longer trend. Rather it is a combination of successful programs; community policing, alternative schools, welfare reform, mentoring, successful prevention programs like the Boy and Girls Clubs and intervention

programs like boot-camps and wilderness experiences. Many of these efforts have

only been successful because our communities have learned the value of forming

partnerships between key agencies, and between the public and private sectors.

These partnerships have multiplied the effectiveness of services and better utilized

resources and funding. Last year I saw an excellent example of how community

15

partnerships can lead to very successful outcomes during a tour of the Boston

project. There a community came together and drastically reduced its murder rate.

Police social workers, juvenile court officers, Boys and Girls Clubs, city recreation

and even city maintenance staff all worked together and redefined themselves and

their city.

This afternoon, Mr. McGuire and I want to briefly tell you about our experience

with successful partnerships and about a few of the programs that have proven beneficial in remediating juvenile delinquency in our part of America. In 1990 we put

together a proposal for a juvenile boot camp project which was submitted to the Office of Juvenile Justice & Delinquency Prevention. This proposal received 1.9 million

dollars in O.J.J.D.P. funding over a period of 30 months. It proved so successful that

it lead to city, county, and state funding for a comprehensive array of programs

which today annually spend more than 3.5 million dollars for community based

treatment for juvenile delinquents. This comprehensive system includes family

based treatment, parent education, family counseling, alternative education, restitution, job readiness training and graduated sanctions. All of these treatment programs are a direct result of the O.J.J.D.P. seed money for a juvenile boot camp and

the benefits derived from a public/private partnership formed by the Boys & Girls

Clubs of South Alabama, the Mobile County Strickland Juvenile Justice Center, the

University of South Alabama, and a wide array of social service agencies both public

and private. To name only a few these include the public school system, the mental

health center, the Boy Scouts, local churches, and several private businesses. This

partnership, founded in response to the guidelines issued in the O.J.J.D.P. announcement of the prototype juvenile boot camp initiative in 1990, has lead to a

comprehensive community based juvenile justice system in Mobile, Alabama, which

I believe offers a model for our nation. The Strickland Juvenile Justice Center and

the Boys & Girls Clubs of South Alabama have formed a partnership. These public

and private entities use the advantages and skills each possess. The private sector,

the Boys & Girls Clubs of South Alabama, brings flexibility of hiring, spending and

opens the arena of private sector funding for programs which traditionally have

been publicly funded. At the same time the partnership allows public dollars to flow

to a private non-profit agency, which allows the private non-profit agency to participate in the intervention of juvenile delinquency while continuing its vital role in

prevention. There was a time in this country when the juvenile courts and private

agencies like the Boys & Girls Clubs viewed themselves as separate agencies with

very different missions. One was strictly prevention while the other’s mission was

purely intervention. Today in Mobile County, Alabama, the Strickland Juvenile Justice Center and the Boys & Girls Clubs of South Alabama recognize our common

mission which is to assist children who are most at-risk to becoming a burden on

their community to grow into productive and self-sufficient members of a law-abiding society.

Senator SESSIONS. Clyde McGuire, it is good to see you, and I

know your club is extraordinary there, on a per-capita basis one of

the most successful in the country in size of membership and size

of the town. I know Bernie Malcove is one of those citizen leaders

that Joe talks about that gives heart and soul to this effort, and

together you have done a great job.

So we would be glad to hear from you at this time.

STATEMENT OF CLYDE McGUIRE

Mr. MCGUIRE. Thank you, Senator, and good afternoon. The film

picked up many of the things that I was going to talk about, but

if I can touch upon some key points, in the past 7 years since we

began implementation of this program, we have learned the following.

Number one, it is cost-effective, and it is cost-effective primarily

because of the partnership.

Senator SESSIONS. Now, when you say this program, is that the

Environmental Youth Corps and the GROWTH program?

Mr. MCGUIRE. Yes, sir, that is correct. When I say program, I am

speaking about our Camp Martin program for adjudicated boys; our

GROWTH program for adjudicated girls; our wilderness program,

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which is a specialty program for boys; and, of course, our alternative school.

Senator SESSIONS. When you say adjudicated, that means that

the young person has been found guilty or delinquent in the juvenile court, is that correct, and there has been a final adjudication

that they are responsible for an improper activity?

Mr. MCGUIRE. Yes, sir, that is correct.

In those 7 years, we have learned the following. Our program is

cost-effective because of the partnership. Second, recidivism has

been reduced among our young men that participate in the program. And, third, these young people that have gone out and committed a crime after they are released from our program typically

commit a less serious crime. So it is going in the right direction.

I think why we are successful is because of several key points.

Number one, we do offer a comprehensive program, as depicted in

the video—the education program, the assessment, the goal-setting,

the conflict resolution. According to the latest FBI crime report, 51

percent of all young people across America that commit homicide,

it is a result of argument. As a result of that, we implemented a

strong anger management program. We mix kids up with good role

models. There is a strong mentoring program built into what we

do.

The second key point, relationship-building. Senator, we spend a

great deal of time hiring people that genuinely care about young

people. That is important to us. We are also big on taking a holistic

approach in working with the family. When we speak of relationships, from the time a young person enters into our program, their

entire family is involved in a parenting program that not only

takes place during the residential phase that follows them into

aftercare.

The third point of why I think our programs are successful is because of an individualized treatment plan. We assess a young person when they first come into a program. We identify those needs

and we try to develop a tailor-made program to follow them

throughout the duration of the program.

And, number four, and to me the most important, is aftercare.

I firmly believe that a lot of agencies can run a strong residential

program. I am convinced, though, that not every agency puts as

much emphasis into aftercare as they should. In our program, we

typically see a young—by the way, when I say aftercare, I am

speaking about once a young man or woman has graduated from

our program and have been placed back into their community to

live.

In our program, we will see a young man or young lady on a

Monday through organized athletic programs and mentoring and

education in our Boys and Girls Clubs. On Tuesday, we are seeing

them after school. Thursday, we are meeting with the entire family

through a parenting program, and on Saturday they are involved

in a community service project.

Senator SESSIONS. Do you have people that follow up with them

individually or just people at the schools who are working with

them?

17

Mr. MCGUIRE. No, sir. We do case management, so every staff

person in our organization has so many young people to follow up

throughout.

Senator SESSIONS. By name?

Mr. MCGUIRE. Yes, sir, and know them by their first name and

their dog by its first name. It is that important to us. So the key

word in aftercare is intensity.

I think there are two other reasons why our programs work. We

believe that no one agency or individual can solve all the problems

facing young people and their families. I guess, realistically, no one

can. But, collectively, we pooled our resources, our talents, and we

are doing more together than if we were doing it separately. So we

remove turf issues. And in that same vein, it doesn’t matter who

gets the credit for doing something good in a person’s life. I think

what matters is meeting the needs of those young people, and we

stay focused on that goal 24/7.

As far as needs, I compliment you for your good work. I strongly

believe that all roads eventually lead back to prevention, and historically by and large that is the area that we typically have put

the fewest resources but certainly have the greatest of needs. I

strongly support the idea of agencies whose thrust is prevention

being involved with a justice program. We are living proof that it

works; it speaks to continuity, it speaks to synergy.

Just in closing, I want you to know that you guys can take great

comfort in knowing that what you are doing is not only changing

lives; you are saving lives, and for that I thank you for all your

support.

Senator SESSIONS. Thank you very much.

[The prepared statement of Mr. McGuire follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF CLYDE MCGUIRE

Thank you Mr. Chairman and good afternoon.

Its truly an honor to be standing before you today to speak about ‘‘intervention

programs that work’’.

Bob shared with you some of the history of the partnership between the court system and our organization, the Boys & Girls Clubs of South Alabama. As a result

of this partnership hundreds of young men and women have been afforded the opportunity to participate in our program, and as a result of this opportunity, have

been able to turn their lives around.

In the past seven years we have learned this about our program:

(a) it’s cost effective because of the partnership;

(b) recidivism is reduced;

(c) those young people that do commit a crime after leaving our program, usually commit a less serious crime in comparison to adjudicated youth at interstate schools.

Why are we successful, I firmly believe because of some of the following points:

• A comprehensive program

We offer education, life skills, mentoring, health and physical education. We

teach young people choices and consequences, goal setting and that it is truly

a privilege and honor to be afforded an opportunity to turn one’s life around

and to give back to one’s community through public service.

• Relationship

1. We spend a great deal of time hiring individuals that genuinely care about

young people.

2. We teach relationship building. We offer parenting classes not only during

the residential phase, but also during the aftercare phase.

• Individualized treatment plan

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Every young person that participates in our program is assessed and, based

upon one’s assessment, a program is developed for that individual. This plan

follows them from the residential phase through aftercare.

• Aftercare

I am convinced that many agencies can run good residential programs; however, I’m not sure how many agencies place enough emphasis in aftercare program. Aftercare is what takes place when young people graduate from residential programs and go back home to live. In our aftercare program, we offer education, life skills, athletics. counseling, community service and much more. The

keyword in aftercare is intensity! I might add, every program we offer affords

a young person; (a) a sense of confidence; (b) a sense of ownership; (c) a sense

of belonging, and, (d) a sense of empowerment.

These youth development strategies are critical and essential in youth development programming. Two other reasons why our programs work: We realize that no

one person or one agency can solve all of the problems facing our young people and

their families. However, by coming together and forming a partnership we can meet

more needs collectively, rather than standing alone. The moral of the story * * *

remove turf issues.

Secondly, we don’t worry about what agency or which individual gets the credit

in creating life-change for young people. What matters are those young people. Their

needs must always come first.

NEEDS

We need more funding, especially in the area of aftercare. When everything is

said and done, all roads lead back to prevention. Historically this is the area of

greatest need and where there are fewer resources.

CLOSING

In closing, I want to express my appreciation to each of you for all that you have

done and will continue to do for the children and their families across America.

Senator SESSIONS. Chief Pounsberry.

STATEMENT OF RICHARD POUNSBERRY

Mr. POUNSBERRY. Yes, sir. It is certainly my pleasure to be here

today, Senator, Senator Biden. I would like to have my testimony,

if you would, just put into the record, and I would just like to make

a few points to reiterate what is in that testimony.

First of all, unlike what is portrayed on television or in the cinema, where most law enforcement is concerned with strictly writing tickets or locking people up, most police agencies in the United

States today try to achieve a balance of crime prevention and law

enforcement.

The majority of the police departments that I have had the pleasure of working with over the past 25 years in law enforcement are

dedicated to the concept of community-oriented policing. They were

dedicated to community-oriented policing before there was even a

term ‘‘community-oriented policing.’’

Most police agencies—and I base this on the fact that I have had

the opportunity to work for three; I started with Annapolis City,

I worked for Prince George’s County, and I am now the Chief of

Police of Seaford, DE—also look at not just traditional policing, but

they look at social and environmental issues as well, and the social

issues are very important. As has just been pointed out by Mr.

McGuire, you have to create that partnership. It doesn’t matter

who gets the credit as long as you are achieving the results.

We try to use within law enforcement a proactive approach to

interacting in a positive manner with young adults. How do we do

that? In the city of Seaford—and I am fortunate to have the direcVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:34 Feb 09, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 SEPT28.TXT SJUD2 PsN: SJUD2
19

tor of our Boys and Girls Club, John Hollis, with us today—we

have 2,400 children in our Boys and Girls Club. My question to

you, sir, is if we didn’t have that Boys and Girls Club, what would

those 2,400 people be doing? What would those young people be

doing? What alternatives would they have?

Also, within that Boys and Girls Club, within the city of Seaford,

we have an Explorers group. The Explorers is a part of the Boy

Scouts of America. The Explorers is based on the concept of a law

enforcement theme that allows young people between the ages of

14 and 18 years of age to interact with the police officers twice a

month. In some cases, we satisfy the curiosity of the young people

with their interest in a law enforcement career. But at the same

time, what we are doing is we are allowing a positive role model

to come into the lives of these young people.

I think you will agree that not only has law enforcement changed

over the last 25 years, but so has society. Twenty-five years ago,

the family structure was a lot better. I would say that today the

young people are looking for alternatives. They are looking for alternatives in a number of areas. Maybe it is Boys and Girls Clubs

or Big Brothers, but I think they are looking for that positive role

model in their lives.

I am happy to say that my police department does have a good

partnership with the Western Sussex Boys and Girls Club, and

that we do work well together to try to meet the needs of the young

people within that community. And based on that, we have seen a

dramatic decrease and calls for service for juvenile crime, as well

as juvenile crime statistics, and I would like to see it continue.

Thank you, sir.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Pounsberry follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF RICHARD POUNSBERRY

Thank you Chairman Sessions, Senator Biden, and members of the Senate Judiciary Committee for allowing me the opportunity to testify today. My name is Richard

Pounsberry. I am the Chief of Police for Seaford, Delaware, a town of about 6,000

but one that is growing rapidly. I have 25 years of law enforcement experience, and

over the years I have seen first hand how a balanced approach to fighting crime

that includes prevention as well enforcing our laws is the best way to keep our

streets safe. I bring you greetings as well from Mayor Daniel Short of Seaford, who

had planned to be here as well but was detained by town business. I am very

pleased to be here on behalf of Seaford, however, and express our appreciation for

the opportunity to tell you our story about juvenile intervention programs that really work, and the role of Boys and Girls Clubs in particular in making that happen.

While it is always an honor and a pleasure to testify before Congress, today is

especially rewarding for me for two reasons. The first is, of course, that Senator

Biden has been a long-time friend of law enforcement as well as my home state’s

Senator. I am especially proud to be here with him. The most important reason,

though, is the same reason that we are all here—Boys and Girls clubs.

As a police officer for 25 years, I have been asked repeatedly about what resources

are needed to improve law enforcement. For a long time, we said that we needed

more police officers on the streets, more patrol cars, more effective guns, bullet proof

vests and more advanced technology. While these things are important, we have recognized in recent years that there is another key factor in our crime fighting efforts—stopping crime by getting at the root of the problem.

Police officers today have embraced community policing and a pro-active style that

doesn’t just consider the traditional police responses, but also deals with social and

educational issues as well, and in providing an alternative to the environment of

the streets which is where most kids get in trouble. It may seem like a cliche, but

the maxim that ‘‘an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure’’ becomes

a reality when you realize that it costs the taxpayers at least $35,000 per year in

the state of Delaware to incarcerate just one prisoner. In comparison, it costs a fracVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:34 Feb 09, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6621 SEPT28.TXT SJUD2 PsN: SJUD2
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tion of that amount to keep the doors of a Boys and Girls club open. In terms of

where we get the most bang for the buck, there is no comparison.

Boys and Girls clubs have always provided a safe haven for children after school,

in the evenings, and on weekends. And they are making a difference. We are in a

time when many parents are divorced or otherwise absent. We are in a place where

kids—boys and girls alike—are pressured to use drugs instead of learning how to

use a computer or play sports.

We need look no further than the Boys and Girls Club in our town of Seaford,

Delaware to demonstrate that safe havens for kids really work in preventing crime.

A three-year study done by the Seaford Police Department showed a dramatic drop

in juvenile crime since the opening of the Western Sussex County Boys and Girls

Club just two years ago in 1997. Here’s what we found out:

• In 1995, we at the police department had 78 complaints about juvenile crime.

• In 1996, that number went up to 88 complaints.

• BUT, after the opening of the Boys and Girls Club, we had only 35 juvenile

complaints in 1997. That’s a 150 percent decrease! We have seen a pattern of

declines in arrest numbers and declines in police calls for service since our

Boys, and Girls club opened its doors. As some would say, the numbers tell the

tale.

• And now, over the last year, crimes committed by juveniles have leveled off. The

Seaford police department, working with the Delaware State Police, have made

a concerted effort to crack down on crimes in our community as part of our

‘‘Safe Streets’’ initiative.

Law enforcement does a great deal to combat juvenile crime, but we cannot do

it alone—we need help on the prevention end. I realize this may sound strange coming from a police chief—but believe me, it is the officers on the street who are telling

me we need more programs like those offered at the Western Sussex club. We need

programs such as basketball, volleyball, computers and tutoring. Police officers are

in those clubs as coaches and volunteers. And there are programs like TRIAD—

where senior citizens partner with police and the community using the Boys and

Girls club facilities, and interact with the young people in the club as well. We have

a brand new Explorers group, with a group of 14 to 18 year old teenagers who have

an interest in scouting and law enforcement. Kids are not just at our Boys and Girls

club right after school—sometimes they are there till nine o’clock at night. In short,

by using the services of the Boys and Girls club, a more preventive approach can

be used to effectively interact with young adults before they become a part of the

criminal justice system.

I see Boys and Girls clubs as offering our town a place to build a real sense of

community—similar to the old meeting houses that you could find in towns across

our country many years ago. Boys and Girls clubs afford opportunities to provide

more positive role models and other options are made available that otherwise

would not be present—such as learning computer skills instead of hanging out on

the corner. I would encourage this committee, this Congress to stand up and show

your support. Ask the Boys and Girls clubs what they need and give it to them.

You’ve done that in the past, and I hope that will continue in the future.

If you want to stop crime—stop it before it starts. And the best way I know to

stop it is to use an organization—the Boys and Girls Clubs—that has the proven

track record to do it.

Thank you. I would be happy to take any questions you have.

Senator SESSIONS. Chief, I will just ask you while you are mentioning that, is there any doubt in your mind that a young person

who is actively involved in a Boys and Girls Club will be less likely

to be involved in criminal activity?

Mr. POUNSBERRY. Well, sir, I am glad you asked that question

because I haven’t seen Robbie Callaway, I guess, in about 28 years,

and Robbie and I grew up in the same area and we were both

members of the Boys and Girls Club. So I guess we are living testimony of what Boys and Girls Clubs can do for you.

Senator SESSIONS. Pretty good.

Senator BIDEN. I don’t know about Robbie. I think you are OK,

Chief, but I don’t know. [Laughter.]

Senator SESSIONS. Robbie, what you are doing in Mobile with the

GROWTH program, the Youth Corps, and so forth, that is unusual,

21

I guess somewhat different. I am impressed that you are allowing

that kind of freedom and innovation. Is that one of your policies,

to encourage these kinds of things?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Very much so, Senator. As you know, we are

serving over 3 million kids and our primary role is prevention, but

we have found is that our people are so good at it that there are

other kids that we can bring back. Every kid we can bring back out

of the system, every kid we can keep from taking another step into

the system is a kid that is not going to go to prison.

He may be Chief Pounsberry to you, Senator Biden, but he is

Ricky Pounsberry to me. As Ricky can tell you, some of the kids

that grew up in our neighborhood didn’t have a Boys and Girls

Club. Some of them went into detention, some of them went into

prison, some of them died. The Boys and Girls Clubs can reach

some of the kids that went into those detention centers. If even our

club back then could have reached out and brought them back into

the community, they wouldn’t have gone into prison and they

wouldn’t have died.

Yes, we encourage it. As a matter of fact, Clyde is on my government relations advisory committee and he is helping encourage

that with other clubs. Every club in the country can’t do it; they

can’t do what Clyde has done. But 10 percent of the clubs could do

what Clyde is doing if we had the right support.

Senator SESSIONS. Well, I think that is right and I don’t think

there is any bright line between pure prevention and pure intervention and that sort of thing. When you get 93 percent of young

people that have already been in trouble with the law not getting

in trouble again because they are involved in your program, then

that is prevention and intervention. That is good all around.

Bob, you mentioned the benefits of a public/private partnership.

What are the benefits precisely that you would name there? I guess

you have got use of resources, efficiency, staffing benefits, administrative benefits, cost economies.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Senator SESSIONS. What are some of the things in your experience you obtain from public-private partnerships?

Mr. MARTIN. You start off, I think, with flexibility in hiring. You

have some flexibility in spending. The private partner is able to access some private funds that traditionally would not have been

used in a function like this.

Senator SESSIONS. If a State probation officer asked for the

money, they wouldn’t get it as much as Clyde McGuire’s contribution.

Mr. MARTIN. That is absolutely correct. There are funds that the

public entity can access. We do that, and then there are funds that

only the private sector can access. And as I mentioned earlier,

being associated with an organization that is a national organization, it helps to give a wider perspective for us.

The other thing, I think, is from a public relations standpoint it

is excellent. I think everybody understands that if you are utilizing

for your aftercare program existing Boys and Girls Clubs rather

than trying to go out and rent a facility or buy a facility, that is

an efficient use of funds.

22

There are many resources that Boys and Girls Clubs have. One

of the chief ones, I think, is in Mobile we have an outstanding

board of directors. We pick people from all professions and all

walks of life, so that whatever need we have there will be somebody with that knowledge or that set of skills. Simply put, if we

had tried to run a county boot camp years ago, we would not have

had access to all those people.

Senator SESSIONS. Bob, one matter that I have discussed here a

good bit—and I have not asked you about it, I don’t think, per se,

but do you find that drug use is an accelerator to criminal behavior

by young people, and do you believe that drug testing of young offenders is worthwhile to determine whether or not they are using

drugs or have a drug problem?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes to those questions. First of all, I would estimate

that probably 80 percent of the kids we are working with have

been involved with drugs. Maybe it is higher than that.

Senator SESSIONS. Clyde, you are nodding. Do you agree with

those numbers?

Mr. MCGUIRE. Yes, sir, I concur.

Senator SESSIONS. That is higher than I thought, actually, and

I knew it was high.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I am not talking about somebody who is addicted and needs to go into some sort of treatment program, but I

am talking about kids who get out and use cigarettes; they consume alcohol, they smoke marijuana, and some of them start to use

cocaine products.

There is a smaller number—I am not sure what it would be, but

a smaller number that are addicted and we have to send into treatment. One of the things that we are particularly concerned about

are those kids who are coming out of these expensive residential

programs, into an aftercare program. Yes, we have to——

Senator SESSIONS. Expensive residential treatment programs?

Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.

Senator SESSIONS. Paid for by their families or the government?

Mr. MARTIN. It is paid for by the government. State, county and

city funds go into our boot camp, our girls treatment program.

But the point I was going to make is that one of the greatest

dangers to a failure in aftercare is the involvement of drugs and

alcohol. An awful lot of kids will be doing fine, but if they get back

around their old buddies and start using drugs, we very often lose

them.

Senator SESSIONS. Well, shouldn’t regular drug testing of those

in the aftercare program be made a part of——

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir, and we do that. Regular drug testing is

what we try to do to discourage the youngster from getting back.

Senator SESSIONS. And it is not so much to see if you can put

them in jail. It is determine what they are doing in those free

hours.

Mr. MARTIN. That is exactly it, Senator. Aftercare is not a movement to try to get you back into the boot camp. It is an effort to

try to make you successful. And if we can take your temperature

and see you have got an illness and give you some medicine for it,

we will do that. And if we can drug-screen you and see you have

23

been messing around with some drugs and you need some counseling or better supervision, then we will do that.

Senator SESSIONS. Clyde, on the aftercare, you mentioned, I

think, the intensity of aftercare. What is your number one philosophy, I guess, on aftercare? How do you maintain that intensity

level and what are you trying to achieve when you are trying to

take a young person who has been in trouble with the law and you

want to make sure they don’t get back into trouble?

Mr. MCGUIRE. Senator, I think our number one objective is to

keep the young person on the right road. And we have learned this:

when a young man or young lady graduates from a residential program, the first 60 days are critical. We need to create a safety net

to ensure that they are making the right decisions and being involved in the right things in their life.

And one way that we do it is keeping them involved in something

positive and a sense of intensity through Boys and Girls Clubs, in

their school, setting them up for success. Many kids who are underachievers in the juvenile penal system have been told that they

don’t have a lot of value. In our program, we tell them that they

have tremendous value, and we also work from the philosophy that

every child counts. So to answer your question, we like intensity

because we want to have the pulse beat of what is going on in

those young people’s lives.

Senator SESSIONS. Thank you.

Senator Biden.

Senator BIDEN. Thank you very much. Gentlemen, I think it has

been said before, and we should say it again, programs are important, money to fund them are important, partnerships are important. But when it gets right down to it, what you said, Mr.

McGuire, about the quality of the people you have performing the

functions is a gigantic piece of this.

And I wasn’t being solicitous earlier when I talked about the engagement of the community and getting people of all political

stripes and people of standing in the community involved, getting

them invested. My experience from watching in Delaware is when

Mr. Allen comes up with the money to match the Federal Government’s piece to build a Boys and Girls Club in western Sussex

County, the Seaford area, he brings with him an awful lot of other

people who care and want to make sure it succeeds. He is a man

who is not used to failing. He did it out of the goodness of his

heart, but he wants to see it work.

And so I want to pursue two lines with all of you, and I know,

as the old joke goes, Robbie has forgotten more about this than

most of us are going to learn. One of the things that I am a little

concerned about is that I am so convinced that prevention and intensive aftercare is a formula that could dramatically reduce crime

in America, beyond what we have already done.

And keep in mind, I am the guy who put the bill in for 100,000

cops. I am the guy who keeps coming for more money for cops, you

know, so I am not suggesting we don’t need cops. But what I am

suggesting is that it seems to me the results are so patently obvious as to what can happen that I would like to figure out a way—

and I don’t want to get Robbie into this, but a way we can expand

this beyond Boys and Girls Clubs.

24

I mean, there are 3 million boys and girls. Well, we are talking

about 19 million latchkey kids out there, by the way, 19 million of

them. So as good as Boys and Girls Clubs are doing, we have got

15 million kids with keys around their necks leaving school at 2:30

p.m., or whatever time school gets out, and essentially no supervision until mom or dad, or both, come home because they both

have to work or they are a single-parent family.

So I want to ask you a few things about the ingredients, what

is the recipe that makes this work so well, and to see whether or

not there are other opportunities. For example, I suspect the Chief

may be aware, but the New Castle County Police Department, our

largest county, went out with their own money, no Federal money,

and they raised money and they built, in the middle of the toughest

neighborhood in the county, a beautiful facility that is a Police Athletic League facility.

They have duplicated or replicated or imitated a number of the

formulas you use, Robbie. They have got real serious people in

there; they are really involved. They have got after-school programs, they have got tutoring programs, and one of the advantages

they have is they have got an awful lot of cops who volunteer.

I might note parenthetically, Mr. Chairman, if you look at police

forces across this Nation today, if you took all the men and women

in America who are mentors, who are little league baseball coaches,

who volunteer in after-school programs, who are engaged in the

Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts, and so on, I will lay you eight to

five there is no profession that remotely approaches the percentage

of participants as cops.

So here are my questions. Number one, if, Mr. McGuire, you

could convince your county probation officer—is it a county government where you all are? I mean, is it Montgomery County?

Senator SESSIONS. Mobile.

Senator BIDEN. Mobile. Excuse me.

If Mobile County were willing to—and maybe they are—spend

the resources and have the number of people around as probation

officers who followed up like your folks follow up—you see that little guy sitting behind the chief? He is the man that runs that Boys

and Girls Club down our way, and he has got men and women

working for him who do what I suspect your guys do, Clyde.

They pick up the phone when Charlie doesn’t show up and say,

Charlie, where are you, how are you? You know, come on in, and

by the way, is your dog Spot still with you, right? I mean, practically, is that how it works?

Mr. MCGUIRE. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Senator BIDEN. One of the things we find is that a study that the

committee had done about 6 years ago—I can’t vouch for what the

numbers are now, but if you go to any school of social work in

America, from the great universities to the not so great universities, and they tell you about all their—there is a great bank of

data, as you well know, about prevention, and they will tell you

that a probation officer or a case officer, if they get above 30 people, it is effectively ineffective.

What happens is it becomes counterproductive because what they

do is, in trying to reach 100, they don’t reach anybody. I mean,

they would really be better off percentage-wise to just pick 30 of

25

their 100 and stay with the 30. They would end up with better

numbers. Yet, during the decades of the 1970’s and 1980’s, we lost

so many probation officers, so many case workers in the United

States of America that in the average State, a probation officer had

a caseload of 237 people.

Now, one of the things I want to get around to here is how critical—and I would like each of you to speak on this if you have an

opinion—how critical is the intense—that is, 2, 3, 4 times a week— follow-up with a child, a teenager, a young adult from the moment

they are released from whatever institutional circumstance they

find themselves in? They are put out on the street. How important

is the intensity of the follow-up?

Mr. MARTIN. I will respond to that, if I may. It is critical to

aftercare. You have to have intensive contact, supervision, counseling. Another element that we have built in is we work with the

parents the entire time that the child is in the program. When the

child goes into aftercare, the family counseling continues, and contact with the parents. We feel very strongly that if we can empower

the parents, then we have the most powerful aftercare person in

the whole system.

The other thing I would like to respond to is we have been doing

an analysis of our aftercare program. We think we are doing a very

good job, but we also think we could do a much better job. One of

the things that we have identified is that you really have a hard

time taking a kid in an intense, secure treatment environment and

then releasing him one day and saying, you are going straight

home.

We want step-down group homes, and we are in the process right

now of beginning to gather information about the best kinds of

group homes and how all of that would be tied together. We are

also looking at the fact that there are, I am sorry to say, a large

number of kids in this country where, no matter what we do with

their parents, they are not going to be suitable parents.

And the youngsters we are dealing with have a history of violence and drug abuse and the kinds of things that foster parents

are not going to be available for them. And as a practical matter,

long-term group homes is the only way to save those children.

Mr. CALLAWAY. I think the follow-up is very important, and what

you are going to find in a good Boys and Girls Club—it is not, you

know, Robbie Callaway sitting up here talking about the money. It

is the people who work in that club. I have Steve Salem with me

here. He doesn’t work in a club, but Steve Salem makes sure that

every dime you give us is spent appropriately and that the people

in the club are spending it appropriately.

Chief Pounsberry—I won’t call you Ricky up here again—Chief

Pounsberry can talk about the police officer that was at the Boys

Club when we were growing up, Dutch Noon, a volunteer. Dutch

Noon believed in Robbie Callaway. I had good parents. I was more

fortunate, but Dutch Noon was a metropolitan police officer who

worked in that Boys Club. He believed in me. That was important.

So those kids coming out of the system, if somebody believes in

them and somebody is saying to them, you are going to make it,

instead of what they are hearing all the time, you are not going

to make it, a lot of those kids will make it.

26

Denzel Washington at my breakfast last week told this story,

and some of you heard it. He was interviewed afterwards and a

smart reporter, as they sometimes can be, came up and stuck a

microphone in his face and said, yes, you are here from Hollywood,

you are a celebrity, you are just doing this as a cause. And he said,

let me tell you something. He said, I grew up, I had six friends.

The only difference in me and the six was that I was a member

of the Boys Club. Do you want me to tell you about the other six?

Two of them are dead and four of them are serving 115 years combined. Follow-up is important.

Senator BIDEN. What I am trying to get at—and you guys are

touching it, but most of the programs we have for kids in our State,

whatever the program is, are programs which either take them

through, as Mr. Martin said, a program and then drop them back

in the neighborhood, drop them back at home. The home may not

work, but essentially they say, OK, we have done our job; we had

you for 6 months at the Ferris School. That is our largest reform

school; we used to call them reform schools. We had you in a drug

rehab program, or we had you in a boot camp, and now it is done

and you are out.

And my experience in watching this is that they almost always

fail because essentially you have changed nothing else in the environment of the kid, or even the young adult. By the way, I would

argue this goes for 25-year-old criminals who are recidivists. You

drop them right back where they were, and the hardest part to get

across to the public because it kind of violates, in my opinion, our

puritan work ethic—well, you know, we spent the money on you,

we gave you a chance, you have got it now, you are clean, or you

finished the boot camp and you came out good and now we are

done, you are OK. And it is really hard, I am finding, at home to

say, no, no, it is just beginning. All you did was sort of take them

back to ground zero.

I mean, you are a cop. I know you work with the Boys and Girls

Clubs, but how important is it that there be something that they

constantly have someone calling them, in effect?

Mr. POUNSBERRY. Senator, I would say it is as important, if not

more important than the prevention end, and the reason why I say

that is—and you will see it in my written testimony—in the State

of Delaware I recently had the opportunity to hear a warden speak.

It costs $35,000 a year to incarcerate a prisoner in the State of

Delaware—$35,000 a year.

Senator BIDEN. A good Ivy League education.

Mr. POUNSBERRY. Take a small percentage of that and use it for

prevention to keep that person from going into an environment

with those negative role models that are going to lead to recidivism. You take that same person that goes in there for whatever

period of time and it is going to have a negative influence in their

life unless they go to something that is more proactive, similar to

the boot camp.

With the boot camp atmosphere, they are getting the discipline,

they are getting the structure that they may not have had, but

while they are in the boot camp, the question that I have to ask

is, is there any rehabilitation training that is going on at the same

time? Are they being trained while they are in that boot camp atVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:34 Feb 09, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 SEPT28.TXT SJUD2 PsN: SJUD2
27

mosphere for when they leave incarceration so that they can walk

into a job that is going to make a difference in their life, or do they

just simply go through the boot camp structure and then go back

to that environment that Senator Biden was talking about earlier?

I think what they need is maybe to take a follow-up program

that is going to be more important. As I have said, take that followup program like boot camp, give them some type of formal training

so that when they do come out of incarceration, they have got an

opportunity to do some good.

Senator BIDEN. I must tell you very bluntly, two campaigns ago,

because I am the guy that came up with the boot camp idea for

the crime, I got the living devil beat out of me in a campaign because I was for boot camps. And the statistics showed up to that

point that boot camps had no impact on recidivism. And they don’t,

unless it has the kind of imaginative piece that you have put in it,

which isn’t merely take a kid into boot camp, but you combine the

boot camp with these other pieces.

Absent that, all a boot camp is is a cheaper way to incarcerate

a kid or an adult. In this case, in the crime bill it is adults that

the boot camps are—but, again, I hope we can—and maybe the

Senator and I can be the nucleus of getting our colleagues to focus

on this notion that even if we provide the programs, there has got

to be a way—I happen to agree with the drug testing—there has

got to be a way that there is some tactile relationship, you know,

going out and touching that kid or that person on a regular basis

for a while, at least, until they sort of get in their routine, get

themselves in a circumstance.

The second question I want to raise with you is I have done an

awful lot of Boys and Girls Clubs events across the country, and

I am very proud of that, very proud of that. And in my State, there

has been a burgeoning of new clubs in our little State, and I am

proud of that. But I always kind of worry when they assemble all

these bright-faced kids sitting in front of me for me to talk to them,

and they range in age from kindergarten kids to kids who are

hanging around after high school. I mean, it goes the gamut.

And I always feel a little funny when I talk to them about preventing crime. I am actually not talking to them; I am talking to

the news media that is there. And, in truth, the vast majority of

those 3 million kids are not kids in trouble. They are good kids.

I mean, if you look at the statistics, only 6 percent of all the kids

in America are violent kids. We have got kind of three categories

of kids. You have got 6 percent of violent kids. You have got yourself a much bigger percentage in the at-risk category that is probably a total of anywhere, depending on who you talk to, 2 to 3 million kids nationwide. And you have got the rest of the kids who

aren’t at risk, but the Boys and Girls Clubs are providing an incredibly positive environment for them.

Now, here is my question, and you may not be able to answer

it because I don’t know whether there is any answer. My gut tells

me—and I am not being smart when I say this—that a Boys and

Girls Club that has a Robbie Callaway, who had good parents but

was looking for alternatives of places to go, things to do, also attracts Denzel Washington’s five friends, some of them, and attracts

the kid who has been through trouble and out and is back in. The

28

chemistry of having good kids hanging with kids at risk and who

are, in the minds of the public, the bad kids helps the bad kids and

the at-risk kids.

Can you talk to me a little bit about the chemistry? And maybe

I am dead wrong; maybe it doesn’t matter. But the thing that impresses me about Boys and Girls Clubs is you have kids who are

honor students, who come in and they are in a minority, they are

in any community, and they are honor students. And then you

have got the kid who is coming in who is the at-risk kid—truancy,

does a little dope on the side, experiments, got in a little bit of

trouble, but hasn’t crossed the line and committed a crime yet. And

then you have the kid in that same Boys and Girls Club who has

gotten arrested for selling drugs or has gotten arrested for hot-wiring a car, gotten arrested for stealing a radio.

And they are all together in that room, and the minority of them

are the kids who stole the radio. Talk to me about that for a

minute, if you can.

Mr. CALLAWAY. Well, even with the programs like this, I can

take you in any Boys and Girls Club in the country, and anybody

in the room, and I will defy you to tell me which one is the delinquent kid, or was the delinquent kid, and which one isn’t.

We do try to put them all together. You know, if a kid is in a

specialized targeted outreach program I mentioned, you can’t go in

there and say that kid is identified as targeted outreach, he is

going to be over here, or she is going to be over here. The positive

influences will win out when you do it.

I am saying that there are 14 million at-risk kids, is what the

Federal Government used—14 million at-risk kids. We are only

serving three million of them. I am not going to rest until we get

a lot more, but those at-risk kids are served better by being with

other kids in the Boys and Girls Clubs. And you can’t tell the difference when you go in there, unlike when you put that kid into

a detention center and if you don’t give them that aftercare, they

are going to come out tougher.

Senator BIDEN. The last question I have—and I apologize for

going so long, Mr. Chairman, but this is a hell of a panel. You don’t

have to answer it now; if you have time, think about it and maybe

you can submit it in writing. I am not looking for any treatise. It

can be just bullet points, no big deal.

Are there other programs beyond Boys and Girls Clubs—and I

assure you, Robbie, we are not going to give up on Boys and Girls

Clubs, so this is not a zero sum game. This is not a game where,

you know, if we find other programs that are good, we don’t fund

Boys and Girls Clubs. And I mean that sincerely.

But are there other programs, initiatives that you are personally

familiar with, any of you, that you think have the basic ingredients

to be able to do the kinds of things that you all are doing that we

should be paying attention to? And what are the ingredients that

make your operation work the best?

I saw the film. I am trying to figure a way to distill in a relatively short sound bite to our colleagues what cops, social workers,

volunteers, Boys and Girls Clubs boards of directors folks—what

they can all agree on are the two, three, four pieces of the puzzle

29

that make this work. If we can do that, then we get over the argument.

I mean, the boss and I, we fight sometimes about how to use prevention money or what form to put it in, whether it is a block grant

or whether we put it in direct programs. I mean, we are in the

same hymnal. We are sometimes not on the same page. A lot of

guys up here aren’t in the same hymnal. I mean, they aren’t singing from the same hymnal, let alone on the same page.

So it is a helpful thing for people whom we respect to tell us, beyond your own operation, what are some of the others that you

have seen that you think make sense so we can start to work on

a formula here.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, just in the area of boot camps, there is a boot

camp up in upstate New York, Sergeant Henry Johnson, and we

heard the director of that program speak a few years ago and we

were so impressed that we flew up and went out in the Catskill

Mountains and spent a couple of days looking at his program.

When I came home, I said to the staff we have a good program,

but they have a better one. And we have completely redone our

program and even had Colonel Corning, who is the director, down

to Mobile to look at our program and to advise with us.

I noticed in the paper this morning that Mayor Williams of

Washington, DC, is creating a safe passages program where he is

trying to bring together all of the social service agencies in coordination, I think, with the police department, trying to identify and

work with, in a coordinated way, at-risk youth. I think that is excellent. It sounds a lot like the Boston project.

In Mobile, AL, our police department has obtained an OJJDP

grant and they have actually hired social workers who are based

in the precincts, and the social workers are the ones that go and

try to work out some of these domestic issues. The social worker

is the person who is called when a child appears to have been

abused or neglected. I think that program has a lot of potential.

When you ask what are the pieces to the puzzle, I would say that

number one is coordination. Mr. McGuire and I 10 years ago were

working with a lot of similar kids and families, but there was not

very much coordination. And as a result of this partnership, we

now work with the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the local mental

health center. We work with our welfare department. The police

have the social workers in the precincts. We now have juvenile probation officers who have also been assigned to those precincts.

Senator BIDEN. I am taking too much of your time, but I appreciate that. You know, you have—I was going to say you have no

idea, but you do have an idea. We have come so far. The idea that

20 years ago I would be sitting here and a cop is talking about having social workers in his precinct would have been laughable. It

would have been the George McGovern—well, I shouldn’t say that.

It would have been close to laughable.

But I always say this, and people don’t believe me when I say

it. Because I have such a great relationship with the cops, they

think I am doing it, but this whole prevention piece of the crime

bill was the cops’ idea. They sat down at my table, and it was the

cops. It wasn’t the social workers; it was cops who had the idea.

30

And the more we get that across to people, the more people realize this is—people are reluctant to waste—I mean, they are so accustomed to us wasting money and they are so accustomed to programs that waste money that the presumption is you go into a program and it means waste. I mean, program equates with waste,

when you say the word ‘‘program.’’ Anyway, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your doing this. I look forward to continuing to work with you. Unfortunately, I am the

ranking member—not unfortunately—well, it is unfortunate I am

ranking. I don’t like being ranking; I like being Chairman of the

Foreign Relations Committee. And there is a hearing on Kosovo

that started at 3:00 p.m., and I asked Bob Dole if he would come

and testify and he is up there and I should go up and make an appearance.

But before I leave, I want you to meet John Hollis.

John, stand up a second.

This guy is emblematic of the people Robbie has all across America who make the chief’s job easier because he, day to day, runs

these volunteers, coordinates them, and makes them work.

John, I just want to publicly acknowledge you and thank you for

what you do. Fortunately for the Boys and Girls Clubs, you are not

the exception, but you are incredible. Thanks.

Anyway, I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I apologize to the

panel. It is first-rate.

Senator SESSIONS. I know you have a lot of things that have been

pressing on you this week, and I thank you for finding the time to

participate in this program. You are correct, we are not very far

apart. We can fuss pretty good, you and I, but we are really, when

it gets down to it, not very far apart.

Bob, I think before the Senator leaves, you modeled something

after the Boston Night Light program and got some good results

from that, you told me yesterday, actually stunning results. Would

you share that with us?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. Our city was very interested in trying to

model after the Boston project and got together a group of us that

went up there. One of the things was having the probation officers

ride with the police officers to check curfews. And like a lot of communities, our detention center at that time was overflowing, and

as a consequence we really didn’t have anything much we could do

if a kid was out after curfew. That probably was a less serious offense than the kid who was already occupying the detention bed.

The city and county got together and significantly increased the

number of detention beds to quite a few of them. During the period

when we were running the curfew enforcement program without

detention beds, we probably had about a 20-percent compliance. I

used to tell people that probably the 20 percent who were home,

you know, they didn’t have anything to do that night so they were

watching TV.

After we got the detention beds, compliance starting going up,

and compliance today is almost 100 percent.

Senator BIDEN. Compliance coupled with enforcement?

Mr. MARTIN. That is correct, combined with enforcement.

Now, the thing that I think is so very significant, though, is that

not only did the number of offenses start going down, but we have

31

never filled up the new detention center. We, in fact, have fewer

kids in detention than we did before we built them.

Senator SESSIONS. They commit less serious crime if they are

home when they are supposed to be. Isn’t that right?

Mr. MARTIN. That is absolutely correct.

Senator SESSIONS. Less likely to get into some serious trouble.

Then you have got to lock them up.

Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. If I may, I would just like to respond to one thing Senator Biden said about having come so far.

As I said earlier, I appeared before this committee in 1981 about

violent juvenile offenders, serious juvenile offenders. All the comments that I can remember and all the questions I can remember

had to do with how many secure beds, how many more police officers—in other words, it was all enforcement, punishment. And now

we are realizing there has got to be a mix; you have got to have

both.

Senator BIDEN. Well, I know there has been an epiphany, Mr.

Martin, when a man from Alabama goes to Boston. There is an

epiphany. I acknowledge it publicly. [Laughter.]

Senator BIDEN. And you are going to have a lot of Boston guys

going to Alabama because they are going to be seeing the way you

guys are running your operation.

Mr. MARTIN. We are glad to have them.

Senator SESSIONS. There is a little truth in both, and I am very

impressed with what they have done in Boston.

Senator BIDEN. That is a real altar call, man, that one. I mean,

that is something different. I never thought I would be around to

see that. Being from a border State, you know, we are kind of conflicted. We don’t know whether we are North or South, so we get

kind of confused occasionally.

Mr. MARTIN. It takes us a while, but we are starting to learn.

Senator BIDEN. No, no. By the way, I didn’t mean to imply—you

have a lot to teach, you have a lot to teach. You are probably being

modest, and I imagine you probably have people flying into Mobile

now trying to figure out how you guys are doing your job. That is

the part of this that the more we talk about it, the more we engage

people, it is a synergy that people gain from this.

And I think, Robbie, that is the single biggest thing about Boys

and Girls Clubs. They look at you all and they say this works. And

they say, well, maybe we can’t get one, but we can do a piece of

something. It is good stuff.

Anyway, thank you, gentlemen. Chief, thanks for coming down.

Mr. POUNSBERRY. Thank you, Senator.

Senator SESSIONS. Well, it is an exciting opportunity. As we have

had a decline in juvenile crime, it does provide, I guess, Chief and

Bob, an opportunity to spend more time with the ones that are in

trouble. Would that be fair to say?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. Our caseloads have gone down, and so we

can concentrate more on the kids who really need our services.

Senator SESSIONS. Chief, do you have any program in your community-oriented policing which you feel like is allowing your police

to be more personally engaged with young people who may be

about to get in trouble or getting in trouble?

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Mr. POUNSBERRY. Absolutely, sir. The Seaford Police Department

is not only involved with the Explorers group, but we are also involved with the HOST program, mentoring young people within the

school system. The Explorers, I think, probably gives the officers

much more satisfaction. These are young people that have ambitions to become a police officer or have a law enforcement career,

and they pretty much can create a bond with one another, give

them a little bit of guidance, give them a little bit of their experience as to what options are available to them in law enforcement.

It is not just a police officer. You have got a number of other options as well, and I think that probably is the one that is most satisfying for all.

Senator SESSIONS. In your communities where you assign officers, do they stay there long enough to get to know the kids in the

neighborhood? Is that one of your goals?

Mr. POUNSBERRY. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Senator SESSIONS. I think we lost that, don’t you, some years

ago?

Mr. POUNSBERRY. I think we are going back to it, sir.

Senator SESSIONS. People in automobiles and they didn’t know

their neighborhood.

Mr. POUNSBERRY. Yes, sir. The automobile was quite an insulator, but now with the bicycle patrols and the motorcycle patrols

and the regular meetings, I think we are able to interact with the

community much more than we have.

Senator SESSIONS. Well, on the thing I think sometimes Senator

Biden and I don’t quite hit it together is that I believe that if you

had not had detention capacity, you could not have had a credible

curfew enforcement program, which is what you basically just said,

Bob.

Mr. MARTIN. That is absolutely correct.

Senator SESSIONS. You have to have a certain critical mass of capacity—you have been a probation officer for a long time—for those

who just will not comply with the rules that are necessary, don’t

you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. The thing is, is that being put in detention is

not a death sentence. Detention is unpleasant, it is a consequence,

but it is part of the teaching process. If you never punished a child

that you are trying to rear, you are probably going to turn out a

delinquent. Now, at the same time, if the only thing you do is punish that child, you are probably also going to turn out a delinquent.

Senator SESSIONS. Clyde, how did you have the gumption to go

outside of your Boys and Girls Club normal programs and get involved in these newer, more specialized activities, and do you recommend it to other Boys and Girls Clubs that they consider this?

Mr. MCGUIRE. Yes, sir, I do. How I got involved is I solicited Bob

on our board of directors in the early 1980’s. For years, we had received some referrals through the court system and through the

churches and through the schools, and we had a pretty good record

of working with at-risk youth. So when the concept of a boot camp

came to Mobile, logically, we were the choice to get involved.

And the more we looked at it, we decided to be the chief applicant because it was based upon certain philosophies. You know,

who needed to hire the staff? Well, all the staff that run these proVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:34 Feb 09, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00036 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 SEPT28.TXT SJUD2 PsN: SJUD2
33

grams are ours. What kind of person are we looking for in a staff

person? We discussed that earlier. Are we located in communities

where there is a tremendous need, communities where many of

these kids were coming out of? Yes, we were.

So, for a lot of reasons, we wanted to be involved. And quite

frankly, I guess it is a non-traditional position, but we wanted to

do a better job in serving teens. We have about 1,400 teenagers

that are members in our organization and we need to be serving

more than that. And so for many reasons, our board stepped out

on faith and we felt like no one else could do this except Boys and

Girls Clubs. And we had a good partnership with the court system;

it has only become better.

And, yes, sir, I would advocate this for other Boys and Girls

Clubs. As Robbie so well said earlier, this may or may not be for

every Boys and Girls Club across the country, but I would daresay

that at least 10 percent of the 1,500 that are out there could do

an admirable job.

Senator SESSIONS. Clyde, you mentioned the GROWTH program,

which is for girls. We have a lot of boot camps mainly focusing on

boys, and youth corps camps and that sort of thing. What is unique

about that program, and do you think that program is worth replicating?

Mr. MCGUIRE. Very much so. In our area, and it is probably

holding true with national stats, juvenile crime among girls has tripled over the last 5 years. And it has not only increased, but the

crimes that young ladies or young women are committing are more

serious. And, again, when we analyzed what was available, there

wasn’t much available for these young women. For those reasons,

we elected to start a GROWTH program.

It is treatment-based, it is gender-sensitive, and we just finished

its first year and we are pleased with the results. Again, it is a

comprehensive approach, and it is actually based at Strickland

Youth Center on the campus there and we send our kids through

aftercare, through many of our different Boys and Girls Clubs. And

we are very pleased.

Senator SESSIONS. I have heard it said that girls, if there is a

good intervention initiative, have lower recidivist rates and you

have a better chance sometimes of changing their criminal activity

than you do with boys. Have you heard those numbers? Bob, do either one of you want to comment on that?

Mr. MARTIN. I made the comment to the late House of Representatives Member Mary Zogby not too long ago that we were really

surprised at how well our girls were doing because the girls came

in and they were better educated and a little brighter than the average boys. And she looked at me and said, well, are you surprised?

But, yes, I think for whatever reason, biology or the way our society is organized, girls tend to be a little more compliant and a little

more socialized. And as a consequence, you have to do different

types of programming with them. We have never had a program

before where we had eating disorders, but we have to have that in

working with juvenile girls.

Girls are much more concerned with relationships, and so where

boys enjoy kind of the camaraderie of being part of a squad and

going out and doing all the physical things, the girls need someVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:34 Feb 09, 2001 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00037 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 SEPT28.TXT SJUD2 PsN: SJUD2
34

times to talk and to discuss issues and relationships and that sort

of thing. So it requires a different approach, and that was the reason why when everybody in Mobile was asking were we going to

run a boot camp for girls, since it was so successful for boys, we

said absolutely not.

Traditionally, that is the way things have gone for girls. Most of

the offenders are boys, so most of the programs are for boys; they

are designed for boys. And every time somebody comes up with a

good program, they turn around and say, well, let’s do one of these

for girls. So our approach was to say what are the needs of young

girls and then start programming from that, rather than just putting them in a boys’ program.

Senator SESSIONS. And you get good results from this?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir, so far we have gotten good results. One of

the figures I was batting around for a while to people that impressed me was that out of 65 girls who had completed the program, we had not had any new pregnancies. I think recently we

had one, so that is not 100 percent, but that is part of the measure

of success of a program like that.

A very large number of our girls have had a pregnancy. I don’t

know what percentage, but a fair percentage have children of their

own. Some even have more than one child of their own, so we are

having to look now at programs that will work with a girl when

she is pregnant. We are really emphasizing child rearing training

and things of that sort.

Senator SESSIONS. The aftercare concept—I read recently an article that confirmed, I guess, what our parents have told us. It does

make a difference who you associate with, and if you are running

with kids who are in trouble, kids will normally get in trouble. And

that is a bigger factor than almost any other category in who is

going to get in trouble.

Is that another argument for a good aftercare program? When a

child gets out of a more confined arrangement or something, you

have got to watch who they are associating with? Clyde, do you

want to respond?

Mr. MCGUIRE. Yes, sir, no question about it, and I wanted to

comment on—this is leading toward a comment that Senator Biden

made reference to. When you bring the young kid who is a good

kid together with a kid who is on the bubble, an at-risk young person, and then the kid who is a delinquent into a Boys and Girls

Club setting, what happens? What is that chemistry?

Well, we set the table. We are going to ensure that there are

going to be more kids there. Peer pressure works both ways, positively or negatively. We are ensuring that that young man who is

a delinquent is going to be surrounded with young people who have

done good things in their lives. So we lead them in the direction

that we want them to go.

Senator SESSIONS. Get them to develop a new set of friends?

Mr. MCGUIRE. Absolutely.

Senator SESSIONS. And have a healthy place to gather.

Mr. MCGUIRE. And then again intensity comes back into play.

We don’t want that kind of relationship to be one time a week; we

want it to be continuous. I think that becomes the challenge of

agencies like Boys and Girls Clubs.

35

Senator SESSIONS. Well, there are a lot of things that we can do.

Does any one of you have any comments that you would like to

make before we finish up?

[No response.]

Senator SESSIONS. There is a lot that we can do better. I, for one,

having come up through the criminal justice system, that our juvenile justice systems are for the most part overwhelmed with the

caseload. We had 3 and 4 times as many bed spaces for adults in

1990 as we did in 1980. I think it was a significant factor in the

decline of crime because we were identifying repeat, dangerous offenders better and they are serving longer.

But we didn’t compensate in juvenile crime, and I have observed—and a lot of people haven’t quite grasped this yet—that juvenile courts more and more are like the one Judge Butler runs in

Mobile. I have been to Ohio and other States and we have seen

their programs. They have educational components, drug treatment

components, mental health treatment components, family counseling and family participation, those kinds of things. They are indeed

focusing on those who are most at-risk because they are the ones

that are getting arrested, and I believe we need to strengthen that.

As to prevention, in general, we are as a Government now spending $4.2 billion, according to GAO, on prevention programs, much

of that money going through every agency in Government. This

whole juvenile crime bill probably will come in at around $1 billion

and some of that will be one-time money. So this is big-time money

that is being spent.

What I think causes us to wonder is, is that prevention money

somehow being worked along to nurture Boys and Girls Clubs? Is

the mental health treatment money being utilized to reach the ones

who most need it? Is the drug awareness money being effectively

gotten to the people who need it? We have got program after program after program, several hundreds, that deal with it. I think

there are 17 mentoring programs in the country. There may be

some in Mobile or Delaware you don’t even know exist. If we get

it all together in a focused way, we could be more effective.

So I guess what I would say to you is I believe we are moving

to help deal with the juvenile courts and all the related treatment

and prevention that goes with that effectively. Fox Butterfield, of

the New York Times, said that many of our juvenile courts are

bankrupt. They just cannot possibly respond to the challenges that

have been placed upon them.

So we can get those courts under control, so you can actually get

out and maintain your curfew, make sure that your drug testing—

if they are getting in trouble with drugs, you know you have got

to do something or they are going to be in trouble with other

crimes. We need to continue to increase our funding for Boys and

Girls Clubs. We doubled that over last year, I believe, just this

year, and I think that reflects this Congress’ respect for what you

are accomplishing.

And then we can take this other drug prevention money, some

of which is being well spent, some of which probably is not, and

make sure we are getting it into the mix effectively. If we do that

and can keep crime going down and you have more money per child

36

getting in trouble for the first time, we can make some historic

positive accomplishments in reducing crime by young people.

And when you reduce crime by young people, you are going to

reduce the crime by adults. The sooner we stop them from getting

involved in a life of crime, the less likely they will be involved as

an adult and get those big sentences that are being thrown out for

the third- and fourth-time convicted offender.

So I am excited about what is happening. I think we should be

positive. There will be in this juvenile crime bill, if we can get it

through all the controversies and keep the core intact, which I

think is not being assailed—we just have the controversial little

things on the edges like guns and all that have threatened the

bill—if we can do that, we will help get this juvenile court system

under control, with the resources necessary, and I think that will

be a significant step in reducing juvenile crime and violence.

Thank you again, Robbie, for your leadership nationally; Bob and

Clyde, in Alabama; and, Chief, for your leadership there in Delaware.

If there is nothing else, we will stand adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 3:56 p.m., the subcommittee was aadjourned.]

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