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SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

CONTRACTING AND TECHNOLOGY 

HEARING ON ENSURING STIMULUS 

CONTRACTS FOR SMALL AND VETERAN OWNED 

SMALL BUSINESSES 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

UNITED STATES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

HEARING HELD 

MARCH 12, 2009 

Small Business Committee Document Number 111-010 

Available via the GPO Website: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house 


Congress.#13
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

NYDIA M. VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman 

DENNIS MOORE, Kansas 

HEATH SHULER, North Carolina 

KATHY DAHLKEMPER, Pennsylvania 

KURT SCHRADER, Oregon 

ANN KIRKPATRICK, Arizona 

GLENN NYE, Virginia 

MICHAEL MICHAUD, Maine 

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois 

DAN LIPINSKI, Illinois 

JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania 

YVETTE CLARKE, New York 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

BOBBY BRIGHT, Alabama 

PARKER GRIFFITH, Alabama 

DEBORAH HALVORSON, Illinois 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri, Ranking Member 

ROSCOE G. BARTLETT, Maryland 

W. TODD AKIN, Missouri 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida 

BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri 

AARON SCHOCK, Illinois 

GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania 

MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado 

MICHAEL DAY, Majority Staff Director 

ADAM MINEHARDT, Deputy Staff Director 

TIM SLATTERY, Chief Counsel 

KAREN HAAS, Minority Staff Director 

(II) 

Subcommittee on Contracting and Technology 

GLENN NYE, Virginia, Chairman 

YVETTE CLARKE, New York 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

KURT SCHRADER, Oregon 

DEBORAH HALVORSON, Illinois 

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

PARKER GRIFFITH, Alabama 

AARON SCHOCK, Illinois, Ranking 

ROSCOE BARTLETT, Maryland 

TODD AKIN, Missouri 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma 

GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page 

Nye, Hon. Glenn. ..................................................................................................... 1 

Schock, Hon. Aaron ................................................................................................. 2 

WITNESSES 

Jenkins, Mr. Calvin, Acting Associate Administrator, Government Contracting and Business Development, Small Business Administration ............ 6 

Szabat, Mr. Joel, Assistant Secretary for Transportation Policy, Department 

of Transportation ................................................................................................. 8 

Wegner, Ms. Gail, Acting Director, Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization, Department of Veterans Affairs ............................................. 10 

DeGraffenreid, Ms. Brenda Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization, Department of Energy ............................................................................. 11 

Oliver, Ms. Linda, Acting Director, Office of Small Business Programs, Department of Defense ............................................................................................. 13 

Klett, Mr. Mark, Klett Consulting Group, Inc., Virginia Beach, VA ................... 25 

Hart, Mr. Jim, Arriba Corporation, Norfolk, VA .................................................. 27 

Schmidt, Mr. James, President, Hohulin Fence Company; Goodfield, IL ........... 28 

Cavolt, Ms. Janice, JBC Corporation; Virginia Beach, VA .................................. 30 

Brown, Mr. Justin, Legislative Associate, Veterans of Foreign Wars ................. 32 

Sharpe, Mr. Joseph, Deputy Director, Economic Commission, The American 

Legion .................................................................................................................... 34 

APPENDIX 

Prepared Statements: 

Jenkins, Mr. Calvin, Acting Associate Administrator, Government Contracting and Business Development, Small Business Administration ............ 45 

Szabat, Mr. Joel, Assistant Secretary for Transportation Policy, Department 

of Transportation ................................................................................................. 49 

Wegner, Ms. Gail, Acting Director, Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization, Department of Veterans Affairs ............................................. 53 

DeGraffenreid, Ms. Brenda Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization, Department of Energy ............................................................................. 61 

Oliver, Ms. Linda, Acting Director, Office of Small Business Programs, Department of Defense ............................................................................................. 68 

Klett, Mr. Mark, Klett Consulting Group, Inc., Virginia Beach, VA ................... 76 

Hart, Mr. Jim, Arriba Corporation, Norfolk, VA .................................................. 86 

Schmidt, Mr. James, President, Hohulin Fence Company; Goodfield, IL ........... 104 

Cavolt, Ms. Janice, JBC Corporation; Virginia Beach, VA .................................. 106 

Brown, Mr. Justin, Legislative Associate, Veterans of Foreign Wars ................. 110 

Sharpe, Mr. Joseph, Deputy Director, Economic Commission, The American 

Legion .................................................................................................................... 114 

Statements for the Record: 

The United States Association of Veterans in Business ...................................... 119 

(V) 

(1) 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

CONTRACTING AND TECHNOLOGY 

HEARING ON ENSURING STIMULUS 

CONTRACTS FOR SMALL 

AND VETERAN OWNED BUSINESSES 

Thursday, March 12, 2009 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS, Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in Room 

2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Glenn Nye [chairman 

of the Subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Nye, Clarke, Halvorson, Schock and 

Thompson. 

Chairman NYE. Good morning. I would like to call the Subcommittee to order. 

I am going to make a brief opening statement. First o fall, thank 

you all for being here today, and it is a very important topic that 

we are going to discuss, and I appreciate you coming over. 

I also want to say I really appreciate our other panelists. The 

second panel are members of our small business community and 

our veteran-owned small business committee, for joining us today. 

I am going to make a brief opening statement, and then I am 

going to turn it over to our Ranking Member Mr. Schock to do the 

same, and we will proceed to hear your testimony. 

As our nation digs its way out of the current economic downturn, 

small businesses will be vital to our efforts. In every previous recession, small firms have acted as job creating catalysts, putting 

our nation back on the path to recovery and helping to revitalize 

our economy. 

Even today small businesses create 60 to 80 percent of new jobs. 

The recently passed Economic Recovery and Reinvestment Act will 

provide entrepreneurs with important tools to help them again lead 

the nation back to prosperity. 

During today’s hearing, we will evaluate the plans of some of the 

key agencies charged with administering projects under the Recovery Act. In particular, we will look at how they intend to engage 

veteran-owned businesses and insure that this sector receives its 

fair share of opportunities. 

In recent years, veterans have played an increasingly prominent 

role in the small business community. After reentering civilian life, 

many former service members decided to go into business for themselves. Veteran entrepreneurs often have the skills that make them 

2 

a natural fit for the federal marketplace, and given their knowledge of the federal government, they frequently have a unique understanding of what procurement offices are looking for and need. 

The Recovery Act is expected to create work in many sectors that 

are veteran dominated, like engineering, telecoms, project management, and construction. And given these realities, it would be logical to conclude that veteran-owned small businesses will see a significant growth as a result of the Economic Recovery Act. 

However, if history is any guide, there is reason to be concerned. 

The federal government has not once in the last eight years 

reached its small business contracting goals, and even more shameful, the government has not met its modest goal of providing three 

percent of contracts to service disabled members. 

Now, given this track record, it’s easy to understand why veteran 

entrepreneurs fear they may be overlooked now, and that would be 

unacceptable. Those who have sacrificed for our nation deserve a 

fair chance to compete for this new business. I think everyone acknowledges the importance of paying tribute to veterans, especially 

at times like these. However, when it comes to honoring those who 

have served, I would suggest that veteran entrepreneurs are looking for and, indeed, deserve more than just lip service. They want 

the opportunity to work and contribute to our nation’s economic recovery. 

If veteran entrepreneurs are going to get a fair shake, then the 

agencies before us need to be engaged. That means outreach to the 

veterans community, informing veterans of the available contracts 

and insuring that there are resources dedicated to helping veterans 

navigate the procurement process. 

There is no time to lose. The Recovery Act calls for 70 percent 

of recovery funds to be obligated in the next 18 months, and a substantial number of these contracts will be ready to go in 180 days. 

Agencies need to make preparations now if they are going to do 

right by small businesses and our veteran entrepreneurs. 

Today, this Committee is putting government agencies on notice. 

We will not accept the tired excuse that the need to move hastily 

and sheer volume of contracts resulted in an inadvertent oversight 

of veteran owned businesses. If that happens, veterans will not be 

the only ones losing. U.S. taxpayers will, too. 

In many cases veteran entrepreneurs provide the best value for 

the taxpayer dollar. When veterans perform federal contracting 

work, it is a win-win. We create opportunity for those who have 

served our nation and ultimately the government receives high 

quality products and services at more competitive prices. 

Now, before I yield to Mr. Schock, our Ranking Member, for an 

opening statement, I just want to again thank all of our witnesses 

for being here. In particular, I want to thank the veteran-owned 

businesses who traveled from far and wide, including a number 

from the Virginia Second Congressional District, who waited an 

extra three hours yesterday in traffic to get up here. So thank you 

for taking the time to make it to be here with us, to share with 

us your stories today. 

And with that I want to yield to Mr. Schock, our Ranking Member, for his opening statement. 

Thank you. 

3 

Mr. SCHOCK. Thank you, Chairman Nye. 

I want to thank the Chairman for calling this meeting today, 

which will increase the oversight of our efforts to insure our nation’s small business are fairly represented in the recently enacted 

American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. 

I also want to thank our panel of witnesses here today who have 

taken the time to travel, as was mentioned, some from far distances to help address this issue. 

I am hopeful that they will speak on behalf of previous experiences and also future plans for the potential usage and protection 

of small businesses and the specific funds associated with this legislation. 

As we all know, small businesses represent the single most important sector of the American economy. They represent our nation’s greatest ingenuity, economic drive, and are the direct result 

of the American entrepreneurial spirit. Small business provide a 

domestic resource for homemade goods and products, the craftsmanship which is rarely matched anywhere in the world. 

Of further significance are those small businesses run by our nation’s veterans. This group of business men and women represent 

some of the most capable and qualified anywhere in our country. 

The dedication and honor that many of these individuals took day 

to day with them during their active service to this country is in 

very much the same manner in which they operate their small 

business. 

That said, our small businesses are suffering. they are being 

pinched from the credit markets, the labor markets, and overreaching regulations, all while they are trying to stay profitable 

during the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. 

When I first heard the idea of some sort of stimulus aimed at 

small businesses to help bolster our economy, I was optimistic for 

the potential opportunity and growth for those who create the most 

jobs in our economy, our small businesses. As I have said many 

times, there is not a member of this House that does not want to 

vote for a stimulus package. 

However, as the details emerged of the legislation that was 

passed, my optimism changed to skepticism and then ultimately 

pessimism. The more I heard about the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, the less that I liked: less than six percent for infrastructure and less than one percent for American small businesses. 

With such a low amount of this bill directed towards truly stimulus 

related projects, there are even fewer protections for American 

small businesses to convince myself, along with a number of my 

colleagues, that the job creating small business sector will receive 

the number of federal contracts that it truly deserves. 

It was this lack of guarantee for aid to small businesses or the 

potential for such which led to my opposition to the so-called stimulus, something that could truly not be stimulative if it offers no 

real aid to the sector of our economy which can have the most direct impact on the American workforce, our small businesses. 

That said, today we are here to identify how we can insure that 

the funding in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act specifically designated for our nation’s small businesses will actually 

reach its intend recipients. During the debate of House Resolution 

4 

1, I offered a bipartisan amendment with my colleague Adam 

Smith of Washington, which would have insured the government’s 

ability to trade stimulus dollars from the federal government to the 

state level, to specific towns and finally for what projects. 

The purpose for this amendment would have required the citation of the awarded contractor and in some instances the subcontractor in charge of carrying out each project. At the same time, 

this amendment would have required the full announcement and 

disclosure of all stimulus related bids be posted on the recovery.gov 

Website, fully visible to any and all small businesses within a given 

region. 

Unfortunately, such an amendment was not adopted. However, I 

urge this Committee to consider a similar approach. The burden of 

this type of disclosure in reporting should be on the federal government to clearly indicate the intended spending of taxpayer dollars, 

not on small businesses to comb classifieds to look for project announcements. 

My ultimate fear remains that because of the time sensitive nature of this stimulus funding, it will be distributed in large quantities rashly, without appropriate deliberation or traceability with 

the reporting on recovery.gov being a shadow of what was promised. 

I also worry that we will be revisiting this issue again in two 

years or four years or several months once we learn again that the 

proper portion of small business contracts was not reached and we 

hold hearings to try and find out what went wrong. 

As our nation has seen from previous experiences, the federal 

government is not always the best steward of taxpayer dollars. 

Each year federal agencies at all levels fall short of their promised 

contracting levels for small businesses. Today I ask all of you: how 

can we avoid these shortcomings of the past, and what assurances 

can the agencies before us here today provide that these mistakes 

won’t happen again. 

I am hopeful here today we can find some answers to these questions and others as we consider how to effectively insure one of the 

largest distribution of taxpayer dollars is directed into those economic sectors which can do the most good, our nation’s small businesses. 

Thank you for you being here, and I yield back to you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman NYE. Thank you, Mr. Schock. 

I now want to provide an opportunity to any other members 

present to make any opening statements or comments if they wish. 

I would yield to Ms. Clarke. 

Ms. CLARKE. Thank you very much, Chairman Nye and Ranking 

Member Schock, for holding this very important hearing. 

I would like to start off by thanking our witnesses for attending 

today. I think this is a very important microcosm of our nation’s 

small business sector. For me it is critical that we make sure that 

the veterans of our nation get their fair share of opportunity and 

of growth and development. Actually it speaks to who we are as a 

nation, and the best way for us to thank our service women and 

men is to create viable pathways to successful job creation. 

5 

To encourage and support our veteran-owned businesses and entrepreneurs is an honor for us, something that we must do and are 

obliged to do. And so as I listen to my colleagues and put it in the 

context of the Recovery and Reinvestment Act, I know that provision has been made in the act for small business. It becomes our 

obligation to make sure that it gets to veteran-owned businesses, 

to make sure that we monitor and make sure that your businesses 

grow, that your entrepreneurial spirit flourishes. 

And I am more optimistic that with our strident oversight and 

accountability that we can make it work. In the words of a very 

popular culture song, I say to you today don’t worry; be happy. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman NYE. Thank you, Ms. Clarke. 

I would offer to yield to Mr. Thompson. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Thank you, Chairman. 

I just want to say I want to thank the Chairman and Ranking 

Member for this opportunity for this hearing. As a member of a 

military family, this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. 

As our country looks at challenging economic times, you know, 

we have a lot of things to be concerned about, but certainly one of 

the things that gives me the greatest hope are our sons and daughters that have served and are serving right now and either are 

back or will be coming back to this country with that sense of service that they have exercised in doing their duty for the country, 

and the opportunities we are talking about today will be good for 

them, but frankly, they are good for our country as well in terms 

of the entrepreneurship. 

So I want to thank the panel for coming in. I am looking forward 

to spending most of my time in interchange with you folks after we 

hear your testimony. 

So thank you very much. 

Chairman NYE. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Thompson. 

I am proud to note that you are going to be giving your testimony today to a bipartisan group up here. We are really focused 

on practically how we are going to move forward and do better in 

the future, and I think that is what we want to focus on today. We 

want to recognize where we have had problems. We want to recognize where we have had successes, learn lessons and move forward. 

I have asked some of the panelists who are going to be on the 

second panel to listen to your testimony and then give us some 

commentary when they are invited to sit with us and let us know 

practically what are they seeing, and are we doing the best we can, 

and if not, and I think we are going to hear that we are not right 

now, how can we practically moving forward do better. 

There is money available under this stimulus package under the 

Recovery Act. We want to make sure that it is used efficiently and 

that it creates as many jobs as possible, obviously targeting small 

businesses and the veterans community. 

I am going to go ahead and invite our first panelists to give their 

testimony, noting that we may be called for votes, and if we are, 

I will warn you and let you know, and then we will adjourn and 

pick back up where we left off, and recognizing that members may 

need to come and go as they have other hearings that are going on. 

But thank you all for being here. 

6 

I am going to start by introducing Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Cal Jenkins 

is the Acting Associate Administrator of the Government Contracting and Business Development Office of the Small Business 

Administration. This office works to develop policies and regulations to enhance the effectiveness of small business programs. 

So, Mr. Jenkins, thank you for being here, and we would like to 

hear your opening statement. 

STATEMENT OF CALVIN JENKINS 

Mr. JENKINS. Mr. Chairman and other distinguished members of 

this Committee, I want to thank you for inviting the Small Business Administration to discuss its small business procurement programs, and to relate it to the American Recovery and Reinvestment 

Act. 

As mentioned, I am Calvin Jenkins, the Deputy Associate Administrator for SBA’s Office of Government Contracting and Business Development, and we appreciate the opportunity to insure 

that small businesses receive a fair opportunity to participate in 

the federal procurement arena, especially in this time of historical 

economic challenge. 

The Small Business Administration provides policy direction and 

guidance to federal procuring agencies and works with them to develop acquisition strategies that will help to increase opportunities 

for small business in federal procurement. SBA facilitates this 

working relationship with these agencies by serving as an active 

member of the Chief Acquisition Officers Council and chair of the 

Small Business Working Group. 

The SBA also chairs the committee of the Directors of Small and 

Disadvantaged Business Programs. 

From Fiscal Year 2000 through Fiscal Year 2007, total federal 

procurement increased from approximately $200 billion to more 

than $378 billion. During this time, the small businesses share almost doubled, increasing from $44.7 billion to $83.3 billion. Subcontracting dollars going to small businesses in Fiscal Year 2007 totaled $64 billion. We estimate that for each $140,600 spent supports one small business job. Thus, for 2007, prime contract dollars 

supported 592,000 jobs within the small business community and 

subcontracting supported over 450,000 jobs. 

For the same period that I mentioned, awards to small, disadvantaged businesses increased from $7.3 billion to $24.9 billion. 

Women-owned small businesses increased from $4.6 to $12.9 billion, and firms certified under our Historic Underutilized Business 

Zone Program went from $663 million to $8.5 billion. Contracts, 

awards to service disabled veteran-owned small businesses increased from $554 million to $3.8 billion. 

Although these are significant increases in contract awards for 

small businesses, federal procurement agencies have met only one 

of five goals consistently from the period of 2001 to 2007. So clearly, more is needed in this particular area. 

Chairman Nye, you asked specifically that we discuss strategies 

that SBA is using to assist veteran and service disabled veteranowned small businesses to obtain government contracts. The SBA 

through its government contracting function is responsible for asVerDate Aug 31 2005 17:56 Mar 27, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERKS~1\HEARINGS\TRANSC~1\47798.TXT DARIEN
7 

sisting small businesses in attaining a fair share of government 

contracts through a variety of programs and services. 

A key tool in this effort is SBA’s statutory mandate to establish 

small business procurement goals in each agency prior to the beginning of the fiscal year and insuring the agencies meet this government-wide goal. The government-wide goal for prime contracts 

includes 23 percent for small business, five percent for small disadvantaged businesses, five percent for women-owned small businesses, three percent for service disabled veteran-owned small businesses, and three percent for HUBZone certified businesses. 

SBA is also required to report on agencies’ achievements in meeting their goals and plans to achieve goals not met. SBA has established a Small Business Procurement Scorecard to do this and it 

is publicly available on SBA’s Website. 

Although there is no government-wide goal for veteran-owned 

small businesses, federal agencies in Fiscal Year 2007 awarded 

more than $10.8 billion in contracts, or 2.9 percent, to veteranowned small businesses. 

As part of SBA’s Small Business Procurement Scorecard initiative, SBA featured two agencies, the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Department of Homeland Security, as best practices 

for strategies to increase federal procurement opportunities for 

service disabled veteran-owned small businesses. SBA posted these 

best practices as a way to assist other agencies in meeting their 

service disabled veteran goals. 

As I mentioned, there is a three percent service disabled veteranowned small business federal prime goal and subcontracting goal 

established, and in meeting these goals, federal agencies are given 

two primary tools. One of those tools is a competitive set-aside authority, as well as a sole source authority, where there is one firm 

that can provide the product, a service disabled veteran that can 

provide the product that the government is looking for. 

In response to your specific request for information about strategies the SBA will deploy to help small business obtain contracts resulting from the Recovery Act, I would like to report that the SBA 

has appointed a stimulus bill coordinator to insure that all of the 

agency’s programs, lending, procurement, business development, 

are moving aggressively to assist small businesses. 

As it relates to contracting, we have begun a campaign to reach 

out to small businesses informing them of procurement opportunities available at the federal level and advising them how to get involved in state and local government infrastructure procurement 

actions that are likely to result from the Recovery Act. 

We are also posting and updating procurement information on 

our Website to make it easier for small businesses to locate these 

agencies and the products and services to support the stimulus effort. 

In addition, we are working to insure that small business procurement data in support of this effort is accurately reported 

through our field offices, which is another key tool in our delivery 

of small business— 

Chairman NYE. Mr. Jenkins, I am going to apologize because I 

did not warn you about the time limit today, and so I have let you 

go a little bit over, but just to let everybody know, what we are 

8 

going to try to do because we want to keep this to two hours if we 

can is to ask everybody to try to keep their opening statement to 

five minutes. 

I did not give you the warning. So I will give you an opportunity 

go ahead and complete, but thank you. 

Mr. JENKINS. Okay, sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I just want to point out that SBA primarily engaged federal 

agencies through our field activities, and that includes our procurement center representatives that monitor the federal agencies, 

their station at major buying activities, as well as our commercial 

marketing representatives that monitor the performance of large 

business prime contracts to insure that they provide opportunity 

for small business at the prime level. 

We also have industrial specialists, as well as natural resource 

and sales specialists that look at the natural resources and insure 

small businesses get a fair opportunity. 

That concludes my verbal testimony, and I will be happy to answer any questions that the Committee may have. 

Thank you.[The prepared statement of Mr. Jenkins is included in 

the appendix at page 45.] 

Chairman NYE. Thank you very much. 

I am going to introduce all of the panelists one by one, and then 

we will go to questions after that. Just FYI, you should be able to 

see lights in front of you, green, yellow, red. Yellow will indicate 

when you have one minute left. So I would appreciate it if we could 

try to keep the remarks within the five minutes. Then everybody 

has a chance to speak. 

I am now going to introduce Mr. Joel Szabat, the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Transportation Policy at the U.S. Department of 

Transportation. Mr. Szabat oversees the formulation of national 

transportation policy and promotes intermodal transportation. 

Mr. Szabat, I want to invite you to go ahead and give us some 

opening remarks. Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF JOEL SZABAT 

Mr. SZABAT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 

Schock, and members of the Committee. 

First, on behalf of the Department of Transportation, my apologies to those veterans from the Virginia Second Congressional District who were stuck in traffic on their up here. We will see what 

we can do to fix the ride back when they go home. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. SZABAT. I am Joel Szabat, Deputy Assistant Secretary for 

Policy in the Department of Transportation. Secretary LaHood has 

named me co-lead of our Tiger Team, which is in charge of overseeing the department’s role in the Recovery Act, in implementing 

the Recovery Act. 

Overall, the Department of Transportation gives twice as much 

of its business to small businesses compared to a typical government agency. Over half of DOT’s direct contracting work, nearly 

800 million out of 1.5 billion, went to women-owned or to small 

businesses compared to a government-wide average of 22 percent. 

9 

Preliminary data for Fiscal Year 2008 indicate that we have maintained that level. 

The Federal Aviation Administration is exempt from Federal Acquisition Regulations and, therefore, not included in DOT’s reports. 

However, FAA is an important part of our outreach to small businesses. FAA’s direct contracting dollars are twice the size of the 

rest of DOT combined and 40 percent of FAA’s contracts go to 

small or to women-owned businesses. 

In every small business category, DOT and FAA far exceed the 

government-wide averages. DOT contracted 2.3 percent of its work 

to service disabled veteran-owned small businesses, for example, 

more than double the government average. Service disabled veterans, the most recently established category, is the only category 

for which DOT has not yet exceeded its target. 

Of even more significance to the small business community are 

the formula funds, especially for highway and transit programs, 

that we distribute to state and local transportation authorities. 

Over $35 billion in funds are distributed this way each year, generating $30 billion in contracting opportunities. 

Under the law that DOT has to operate under which governs 

these programs, disadvantaged business enterprises are the only 

small businesses for which DOT can set goals. Veteran-owned businesses must separately qualify as DBEs in order to participate in 

this program. Through our work with our state and local partners, over $3.5 

billion in contracts are steered annually to DBEs through our formula program. 

Now, in addition to our normal formulas, the Recovery Act will provide $48.1 billion, and as the Chairman indicated, with the bulk 

of this money to be obligated within the next 18 months. I am 

sorry. For us the bulk to be obligated within the next 12 months, 

and all of it to be obligated within 12 months, the bulk to be spent 

within 18. 

Most of this money will be distributed through formulas and the 

existing laws that govern DOT programs apply. We can work to set 

targets for DBEs, but no other category of small businesses. We estimate that the formula fund programs in the Recovery Act will 

create at least another $3 billion in contracting opportunities for 

DBEs over the next 18 months. 

Bonding is an important challenge for DBEs in qualifying for 

government contracts. The Recovery Act establishes a small, $20 

million bonding assistance program within DOT. DOT’s Office of 

Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization has been working 

with SBA to craft a program that will minimize the cost and administrative overhead for DBE participants and maximize the 

number of companies that can benefit from their support. 

There are also future year opportunities for service disabled veterans and other small businesses. The Recovery Act dedicates $8 

billion for high speed and inner city passenger rail and a few other 

smaller discretionary programs where the department will have to 

craft business qualification criteria. 

President Obama has proposed an additional $1 billion a year 

annually for high speed rail and $5 billion for an infrastructure 

bank focused primarily, if not solely, on transportation. 

10 

We look forward to working with Congress to shape the laws that 

will govern small business participation in these programs. Most 

importantly, both the surface transportation program and aviation 

programs were last reauthorized over five years ago, before federal 

standards for service disabled veterans were set. This year both of 

these programs are up for reauthorization with, again, the promise 

of more than $30 billion a year in annual contracting opportunities. 

And, again, we look forward to working with Congress to shape 

the laws that will govern small business participation in these program. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, and members of 

the Committee.[The prepared statement of Mr. Szabat is included 

in the appendix at page 49.] 

Chairman NYE. Okay. Thank you very much. 

I would now like to recognize Ms. Gail Wegner, Acting Director 

of the Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization in 

the Department of Veterans Affairs, which provides patient care 

and federal benefits to veterans and their dependents. The OSDBU 

identifies prime and subcontracting opportunities for small businesses and provides them with guidance on procurement matters. 

Ms. Wegner, I invite you to please make your opening statement. 

Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF GAIL WEGNER 

Ms. WEGNER. Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, thank 

you for convening this hearing. I request that my written statement be submitted for the record. 

Veterans Affairs has a long tradition of outstanding support for 

small businesses, with special emphasis on veteran-owned small 

businesses. The Recovery Act presents a valuable opportunity for 

us to maintain that tradition. I am honored to represent Secretary 

Shinseki, our employees, and the veterans who do business with 

VA here today. 

I am also delighted to inform you that VA received a Green 

Small Business Scorecard performance from the SBA in Fiscal Year 

2007. Summary data is contained in my written statement, and it 

also appears on SBA’s Website 

Of note, VA led the federal government in transactions with service disabled veteran-owned small businesses and with veteranowned small businesses. Given this history, I believe that Recovery 

Act requirements will be carefully reviewed for participation by 

small businesses in VA. 

Our success is largely attributable to three principal factors. 

First, supporting veterans is our primary mission. This includes 

creating procurement opportunities for veterans. 

Second, our leadership is committed to small businesses. They 

meet monthly and review progress toward all small business goal 

achievements. 

Third, VA delivers services to veterans in the communities in 

which they live. We understand directly the impact that small businesses have on the local economy. 

VA has unique legislation which enables us to contract more easily with veteran-owned small businesses. We also award many 

11 

smaller dollar value contracts. In challenging economic times, 

small purchases can make a big difference in the sustainability of 

a small business. 

Additionally, we formally review proposed acquisition strategies for buys over $500,000, and for purchases over five million, a small 

business analyst participates in acquisition planning meetings. As 

VA’s Recovery Act requirements are more fully developed, they will 

be subject to these same proven strategies. 

Staff in VA’s Office of Small Business Programs and in the Center for Veterans Enterprise provide quality, individualized attention to small business owners. We work closely with a number of 

partners. VA enjoys an especially strong collaboration with the Association of Procurement Technical Assistance Centers, who educate businesses new to the federal marketplace. We believe that 

PTAC support will be vitally important in Recovery Act contracts 

and the ability of small businesses to win them. 

Our achievements would not be possible without the fundamental work performed by SBA’s professionals, their grantee organizations, and the support of Congress. These resources and processes apply when VA contracts under ordinary circumstances. 

The Recovery Act, however, represents an extraordinary response 

to extraordinary circumstances. VA is assessing whether the additional volume of contracting will require us to enter agreements 

with other federal agencies. 

And in closing, I hope that you will agree, given our past performance, that VA is committed to supporting small businesses and 

most especially veterans in business across our spectrum of procurement opportunities. 

Mr. Chairman, thank you again for convening today’s hearing. I 

welcome your interest, and I am prepared to answer any questions 

that you or the members may have.[The prepared statement of Ms. 

Wegner is included in the appendix at page 53.] 

Chairman NYE. Okay. Thank you very much. 

I would now like to introduce Ms. Brenda DeGraffenreid, procurement analyst for the Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization at the Department of Energy. Energy is the largest 

civilian buying agency in the federal government, procuring over 

$22 billion in goods and services annually, and Ms. DeGraffenreid, 

welcome and we would be happy to hear your opening statement. 

Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF BRENDA DeGRAFFENREID 

Ms. DEGRAFFENREID. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of 

the Subcommittee. 

I am the supervisory acquisition manager overseeing the Office 

of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization. I appreciate the 

opportunity to address the Subcommittee on the Department of Energy’s plans and strategies that will insure that small businesses, 

including the veterans and service disabled veterans can participate in government contracting opportunities resulting from the 

Recovery Act to the maximum extent. 

Small businesses are critical to the health of the U.S., and according to the Small Business Administration, 99 percent of all emVerDate Aug 31 2005 17:56 Mar 27, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERKS~1\HEARINGS\TRANSC~1\47798.TXT DARIEN
12 

ployers in the U.S. employ approximately one-half of all private 

sector employees and have generated 60 to 80 percent of all the net 

new jobs. So it is understandable that this Congress wants to insure that small businesses play a significant role in the recovery 

of the nation’s economy. 

DOE has always been a strong advocate for the participation of 

small businesses, including small disadvantaged businesses, 

HUBZone, women- owned, veteran-owned and service disabled veterans, in its procurement process at both the prime and subcontracting levels, and we look to continue that trend in implementing 

the Recovery Act. 

At the prime contract level, DOE has increased its impact in the 

small business community over the past eight years by increasing 

prime awards to small businesses from $500.2 million in Fiscal 

Year 2000 to $1.4 billion in Fiscal Year 2008. 

Before discussing DOE’s unique business and procurement model 

in order to place these achievements and recovery opportunities in 

context, DOE is different from many other agencies. We have two 

types of contracts: one, facilities management contracts, which we 

term FMCs, and non-FMCs. The FMCs represent the primary procurement model utilized at DOE for the operations of its network 

of government owned, contractor operated laboratories and other 

facilities. 

FMCs include management and operating, which are M&O contracts, management integration and environmental restoration contracts. These are generally awarded to large businesses, educational institutions, and nonprofit organizations. Through the 

FMC contracting model, DOE directs its mission related areas and 

the overall performance objectives that it wants to accomplish. 

FMCs range from the hundred millions to billions of dollars. 

They are complex and generally contain periods of performance of 

five years or more. 

Historically FMCs have represented from 85 to 90 percent of 

DOE’s procurement dollars. So in FY 2008, for example, FMC contracts represented 84.3 percent of the department’s procurement 

base. The remaining no-FMC dollars, or 15.7 percent of the procurement base, were used to fund a wide range of prime contracts 

of both small and large businesses. 

Now to the Recovery Act opportunities. As for the strategies that 

will insure that small businesses can participate in government 

contracting opportunities resulting from the Recovery Act, the department is in the process of developing guidance and an implementation plan to execute the requirements of the Recovery Act. 

Therefore, we cannot yet provide detailed acquisition methods that 

we will use to implement each program or sub-program designated 

in the act. 

However, we will attempt to provide the Subcommittee with a 

general overview of the types of acquisition methods we anticipate 

and a few examples of the specific work that we will be performing 

with recovery funds. 

As you stated in your letter, DOE will receive approximately 39 

billion, 38.7 to be exact, in appropriated funds under the Recovery 

Act. These funds primarily have been directed to the following program offices: Office of Electricity Delivery and Energy Reliability, 

13 

Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, Office of Environmental Management, Office of Fossil Energy, Office of the Inspector General, and Office of Science. 

The funds appropriated in the Recovery Act will be awarded 

principally through several methods: financial assistance agreements, ongoing contract vehicles held by both small and large businesses, and through DOE’s established network of FMCs which I 

mentioned earlier. 

The department has already provided information and tools to 

assist the acquisition work force in insuring that the requirements 

of the Recovery Act provide maximum opportunities for small businesses to participate in the recovery. A significant portion of the recovery funds will be obligated on financial assistance agreements 

and statutorily required that some of these monies be used for 

block grants. 

DOE’s Small Business Innovation Research Program will receive 

funds under the Recovery Act. As you probably are aware, the 

SBIR program was established to provide funding to stimulate 

technological innovation. 

Small businesses will be able to compete for research and development funds within the Recovery Act as they always have within 

the small business investment research and small business technology transfer funding. A portion of the recovery funds will be obligated on current procurement awards, such as contracts with task 

orders pursuant to the federal regulations. These awards are held 

by both large and small companies. 

As I see that I have the yellow light and my time is almost up, 

I will conclude by saying that Department of Energy encourages 

small business, including service disabled veterans, to come to 

DOE not just for the Recovery Act, but for all of our projects because we all look for service disabled veterans to help us make our 

goals. 

So thank you for the opportunity to appear before this Subcommittee. That concludes my prepared remarks, and I will be 

pleased to answer any questions.[The prepared statement of Ms. 

DeGraffenreid is included in the appendix at page 61.] 

Chairman NYE. Okay. Thank you very much. 

I would now like to recognize our final panelist for this panel, 

Ms. Linda Oliver, the Acting Director of the Office of Small Business Programs for the Department of Defense. In this role Ms. Oliver is responsible for establishing Department of Defense policies 

that insure the inclusion of small firms in defense related procurement actions, an area of great interest to my district particularly, 

coming from southeast Virginia. 

Thank you for being with us, and Ms. Oliver, we would be happy 

to hear your opening remarks. 

STATEMENT OF LINDA OLIVER 

Ms. OLIVER. Thank you, Chairman Nye, Ranking Member 

Schock, distinguished members of the panel. 

I ask that my written remarks be included in the record, and I 

will summarize these remarks because five minutes is less than 

any of us ever realize it is going to be. 

14 

The Department of Defense is poised, posed to help support small 

businesses in their participation in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. We look forward to this opportunity and appreciate 

the fact that the Committee is interested in what we are doing. 

I will summarize my written statement in three areas basically. 

I will talk a little bit about the Recovery Act at least from the Department of Defense perspective. I will touch on our record with 

service disabled veteran-owned small businesses particularly, and 

then I will talk quickly on a few of the things that we do to encourage small businesses and service disabled small businesses. The Department of Defense will receive approximately $7.4 billion from the Recovery Act. That money will be distributed primarily through contracts. In order to manage all of the Recovery 

Act issues and money, there is a very senior committee formed 

which oversees the plans for money and oversees the writing of the 

required reports. 

We, my office, is involved with the committee. We will continue 

to stay involved with the committee. We are hoping that by staying 

involved in the committee we will do what we want to, which is 

make maximum practicable opportunities available for small businesses, including service disabled small businesses. 

Turning to our special relationship with service disabled veteranowned small businesses, in my written remarks is a chart that 

shows a graph of our interaction with service disabled veteranowned small businesses since the service disabled veteran-owned 

small businesses became a goal. Our progress was quite slow until 

2003, which is exactly the time that the use of set-asides for service 

disabled veteran-owned small businesses became available to us. 

You will see that both in terms of dollars and in terms of percentages once we have the tool that you have given us and which 

we appreciate, we were able to move forward much more rapidly. 

Now, we have work to do, but we are hoping that we have found 

the key and will continue to move forward at the same rate. 

Some of the things that my office does in order to help us stay 

in touch and contract with all small businesses, including service 

disabled veteran small businesses, are that we do a lot of training. 

We are just in the process of completing revision of an electronic 

course available to everyone, but aimed at contracting officers 

about service disabled veteran-owned small business contracting. 

We have two other courses that we are in the process of putting 

together, all of this with Defense Acquisition University. 

We have done many Webcasts. We do annual awards for all sorts 

of small business activities, but particularly service disabled veteran-owned small businesses. We support a National Veterans Conference. We do training, a great deal of training of our small business specialists so that we stay on the cutting edge of procurement, 

and particularly as it relates to small business. 

In summary, we intend to and we expect to be involved in the 

plans for the Recovery Act funds. We have a track record which 

tells us if we try hard, we can maximize opportunities for small 

businesses, and therefore, I am happy to tell you that we think we 

can succeed in doing what you have asked us to do. 

Thanks.[The prepared statement of Ms. Oliver is included in the 

appendix at page 68.] 

15 

Chairman NYE. Thank you very much. 

I want to go ahead and get into questions now, and I want to 

try to reserve some time for the other members to ask questions 

they would like to ask, and noting the time, of course, we want to 

have significant time for our second panel so that we can hear from 

the business owners about their experience. 

But I do have a couple of questions I would like to ask, and basically I think the bottom line that I want to get at here is we know 

that we can do better, that we need to do better. We know we have 

failed to meet our government set targets, and we are trying to 

focus on ways to get there. And I am going to start with a question 

for Mr. Jenkins. 

You represent the Small Business Administration and have a position that gives you the opportunity to see what the other agencies 

of the federal government are doing and to work with them on specifically establishing the benchmarks, but then they work to help 

us meet our overall target. 

Basically, can you just give us, you know, just candidly why are 

we not making the target and what do we need to do to fix that? 

And then can you talk about how the SBA will work to perhaps 

revise the target goals given the fact that we now know the dollars 

that we are going to get under the Recovery Act? 

Mr. JENKINS. Sure. One of the challenges that the agencies have 

is insuring that businesses are at a level that can support the contracting that they are doing both in terms of firms being in those 

specific industries that they are buying and selling. One of the 

things that the SBA is trying to do in terms of its outreach is to 

match agencies with businesses, including service disabled veteranowned businesses. We are really pushing in terms of saying this is 

what this particular agency buys and, therefore, we are reaching 

out to those specific industries, those communities, and then making that information available. We are making sure that the small 

businesses understand how the agencies are buying, making sure 

they are registered in terms of the central contracting registrant, 

providing them with business development assistance, and certainly from an SBA standpoint, providing them with the financial 

support in terms of loans to assist them. 

We believe with the scorecard that we introduced about a year 

and a half ago that it heightened the visibility of all of these goals, 

including the goals for service disabled veterans, and working with 

the agencies to develop strategies and plans. We think that is critical that there is now an increased focus in this particular area. 

Chairman NYE. Thank you. 

I agree that it is critical with the increased focus. 

You mentioned that you have established a stimulus bill coordinator position, and I won’t ask you to comment on that anymore 

at the moment, but I will be interested to follow up and hear about 

the plans that that coordinator has for increasing the share that 

particularly our veteran owned small business are getting in terms 

of that government contracting. 

I want to move on and ask a question of Mr. Szabat. Can you 

please comment from your perspective on how you are going to coordinate with the states to insure that the money that is coming 

from DOT through the states for transportation infrastructure then 

16 

goes on and we insure that essentially our veteran owned and our 

small businesses have the best shot at getting access to that contracting? 

Mr. SZABAT. Yes, sir, although if I may, first I will echo Cal’s 

comments and reinforce his answer that I think absolutely one of 

the reasons that you have seen an uptick recently in government 

agency performance is the fact that more people are paying attention and there is more of a spotlight. 

I was the Chief of Staff at the Small Business Administration 

when the scorecard came out, and the Deputy Administrator at the 

time and myself split the duty of fielding the angry calls from our 

fellow government agencies of people who were ranked red in various categories. But one call, in particular, justified in my mind the 

reason we had the program where the Chief of Staff of another federal agency, which we may not name, called me to say, ‘‘I have to 

confess that until you had the scorecard I did not know that our 

agency had a goal for service disabled veteran-owned small businesses, and now that we have that goal or now that we are aware 

of that, we can guarantee you that the front office of the agency 

will pay attention to that.’’ 

But to your question in particular, sir, as I mentioned in both 

our written prepared testimony and in my verbal testimony, the 

Department of Transportation is covered by a separate law, and 

that law restricts our ability to set targets to the states to only disadvantaged business enterprises, which also we do not have the 

latitude of how we can determine who was eligible. Those are presumptively women, Latino, African American, and Asian owned 

business owners with a net worth not to exceed $750,000 in contracts not to excess $21 million. 

Within those categories, veteran-owned and service disabled veteran-owned businesses may apply for qualification, but they will 

only qualify if they are identified as being both economically and 

socially disadvantaged, which we recognize can be high hurdles to 

accomplish. 

So we are letting, in the workshops and our outreach to the veteran-owned community, we are letting them know that these opportunities exist, but we are also aware that unfortunately, we do 

not have the ability to simply inform the states, tell the states that 

they must include veterans within these programs. 

So we are offering the veterans information and training opportunities. Most of the work that we have right now with service disabled veteran- owned small businesses is information technology 

related, not construction related. We want to get them more into 

the higher dollar value construction fields, but under current law 

we do not have the ability to actually require the states to fold 

them into the over a 30 to $35 billion that we will be giving them 

through Recovery Act formula funds. 

Chairman NYE. Thank you. 

And I certainly do not mean to imply that you need to force some 

kind of goal on top of the states. However, there are still opportunities to be helpful with the states in working with them and insuring that our businesses get a fair crack at these opportunities, even 

absent a specific target sent to the states. 

17 

But thank you for your comments, and this actually leads me 

into something I wanted to ask Ms. Wegner regarding the VA, and 

I wanted to ask you if you can comment, please, on your work with 

state VAs. Again, it’s a similar question. 

We have federal level bureaucracy here in the state level. It 

would be a shame if we are not well coordinated. I know the VA 

has had some positive experience in this area, and I am wondering 

if you can just give us some comments on how you have worked 

together. You mentioned during your testimony working together 

with other federal agencies to help veterans get access to those contracts. You mentioned something about your work with the state 

offices and any plans that you have to ramp that up or take lessons 

learned specifically to help one way of targeting our Recovery Act 

funds. 

Ms. WEGNER. Well, heck, I would rather talk about what we are 

doing with the other federal agencies because it is a better success 

story, but thank you very much for that hard question. 

In the Center for Veterans Enterprise, our outreach program 

manager has developed as part of our Web page a state programs 

site in which a veteran from any state in the nation can go and 

look at their particular state to see what legislation has been introduced in the past, if there is currently a program, what the status 

is, and anyone can review live programs from the other states. 

So when you look at the map of the nation, you can immediately 

see which states have veterans’ supplier inclusion programs already in place and which have proposed them and sometimes 

which have voted them down. 

The purpose of that is to help advocates at the state level find 

legislation in other states that they can use to introduce comparable programs relatively easily within their state. The push 

from our perspective in the Department of Veterans Affairs is we 

have the federal model in place, and you have heard the people testify this morning that we are making good progress and that you 

have the attention of the agencies. Now in our opinion in VA, the 

next place to take this program is to the states so that we can insure that veterans and service-connected veterans have opportunities at the state level. 

So we are trying to make it as easy as we can. 

Chairman NYE. Thank you also for mentioning how the spotlight 

that we put on the issue is apparently tremendously helpful in 

moving the ball forward in this area, and I think you can expect 

from us to continue to be in communication with you about how we 

are effectively moving forward here. 

Thank you for your comments. 

And I just had one more question for Ms. Oliver. You mentioned 

the success that Department of Defense has had over the past five, 

six years in dealing with service disabled veterans, and indeed, 

there has been a dramatic increase in the number of contracts and 

dollar amount awarded. Yet we are still only about halfway there. 

So can you tell us what do we really need to do to get to that 

target? What do we need to fix? 

Ms. OLIVER. I do not think it is ′′fix′′; I think it is just ′′keep it 

on′′. There is a pattern with all of these goals. The government and 

parts of the government do not begin by making the goals. If we 

18 

can get the rate of increase, then it seems to continue on with that 

sort of increase. That is my hope with service disabled veteranowned small businesses. 

I told you that the tool was really very helpful, and to be honest 

with you, in the same way that the committees have helped us 

focus, in the way Joel talked about, for example, the veterans 

themselves and the service disabled veterans and their organizations have been tremendously helpful to us. They have helped us 

understand why we are hard, the ways that we are hard to do business with, and why we cannot change some of those. Some of those 

are controlled by statute. 

We have, I think, had insights about how to some degree compensate for it. I think there are many more insights for us to find 

and inasmuch as we are not even half there toward our goal. I 

think the veterans and the service disabled veterans, individuals 

and their organizations will continue to help us. 

Chairman NYE. All right. Thank you. 

Again, I want to mention a number of you have mentioned today 

you have established oversight officers or committees to oversee 

how we are going to do better and do exactly what we are talking 

about today, and I am going to just put you on notice that we will 

be following up with you to hear about exactly how that work is 

progressing and how we are getting closer to that goal. 

Now, I want to reserve some time for other members. I just want 

to thank Ms. Halvorson for joining us and being here. Thank you. 

Now I am going to yield time to our Ranking Member, Mr. 

Schock. 

Mr. SCHOCK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think you did a nice 

job of asking each one of our excellent panel members a question. 

I am not going to do the same. We recognize there is a problem, 

and we all realize that we need to shine the spotlight as part one, 

and then obviously exerting effort and having a plan of action on 

how we are going to get there is job number two. 

I want to kind of ask Mr. Jenkins from SBA if you could explain 

to me your process within the agency to determine what is an appropriate percentage for each one of these departments to have for 

veterans, small business owners and small business owners’ in general contracts. In other words, how do you determine, how do you 

negotiate with these agencies based on the agency, based on the 

type of work they do to come up with that percentage. 

Mr. JENKINS. It is actually a two-pronged strategy. We have the 

agencies participate on a particular subgroup, and goaling subgroup. We look at what they historically have done in the past in 

terms of their procurement numbers. 

We also look at the other part of the law which talks about the 

maximum practical opportunity; what can they do, what can be 

made available to small businesses, and then the individual categories. 

With that we also have to look at how we establish the nationwide goal. So, for example, the Department of Defense represents 

almost 70 percent of total federal procurement. If they do not make 

their goal, it is very difficult for the entire country to make the 

government- wide goal. 

19 

So we kind of balance that out to get back there. So it is through 

a formula that we use and through this committee that we analyze 

the data and put it all together nationwide. 

Mr. SCHOCK. How is it that the department allows, for example— 

and I am not going to pick on you personally; I know you are the 

messenger—but, for example, the Department of Energy, how is it 

that we allow the Department of Energy to have a negotiated rate 

or percentage lower than that as specified in the statute? 

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, once again, the statute applies to the government-wide and not the individual agencies. Where the individual 

agencies really play is at the maximum practical opportunity, but 

then we have to pull that to get up to the government- wide number. 

We recognize how the Department of Energy operates. They operate through the various facilities that were mentioned earlier. 

With that, we look at what is available after you pull those centers 

out or those facilities out, and they do everything from landscaping 

to high earning scientists and running national laboratories. 

Then we look at what is left. What is left that they themselves 

through their contracting activity can actually procure? And that is 

where we set the goals based on that maximum practical opportunity. 

They would be significantly lower, and we have to, for example, 

if we set a five percent small business goal, it is very difficult to 

set also a five percent women-owned goal because that would mean 

all of the small business dollars would have to go to women, and 

so we look at the actual percentage of performance over the last 

three years, and we certainly do not want them to slide backwards. 

So we set the goal at whatever is higher, either the average over 

the previous three years or what they received in the last year and 

pick whichever is the highest number. 

Mr. SCHOCK. I was going to ask Mr. Szabat at the Department 

of Transportation. You know, you reported that you have exceeded 

your goal by 20 percent. I mean, what kind of practices have you 

put in place there at the department that you know of that have 

kind of helped you reach that goal? 

Mr. SZABAT. Well, to clarify, we have doubled the government average. The government average is 22 percent. We are over 50 percent or just below 50 percent if you factor in FAA. But our goal is, 

for example, for one category of small businesses it would be 36 

percent. We are at 38 percent. So we are exceeding our goal, but 

as Cal mentioned, they are calibrated for each of the different 

agencies because we have identified more opportunities that, for 

example, energy in the Department of Transportation where we 

can legitimately go out and seek the work of small businesses to 

do our work, we are able to set and achieve higher goals. 

And we are constantly looking for opportunities to raise those. I 

think, you know, I will echo Linda’s comments. There is no magic 

to this or a particular formula. A lot of it is just elbow grease and 

hard work. 

We have been blessed with having a very, very competent 

OSDBU office, and again, the attention and support of senior management. The Transportation, as you are aware, has several different modes to distribute most of the money: federal highways, 

20 

federal transit, Federal Aviation Administration, and they each 

have their own officials that are dedicated to working with communities to getting the word out. 

So it is not just Department of Transportation OSDBU having 

these meetings with, conferences with service disabled veterans, 

but each of the individual modes doing it and doing it in coordination, and you do this over enough time and you establish a culture 

within the agency that supports that, and Transportation has that 

culture so that when we are in a situation as we are now where 

out of, and I do not know the number, 25 to 30 presidential appointees would be our normal leadership contingent. We have one 

on board right now, in fact, the Ranking Member’s predecessor, 

former Congressman LaHood, now our Secretary. 

So we do not have a leadership team to be driving this through 

the department to make sure that this happens, but we have a career team that is aware of these goals and has been working it for 

so long that this is second nature to us. So I think more so than 

any one thing I can talk about, it is the fact that we have just had 

people who had support for management in the past who are now 

able on auto pilot to continue to do this. 

Mr. SCHOCK. Okay. Well, it is obvious to me at least by the panelists that are here that there is an interest on your parts to increase the percentage, and based on Mr. Jenkins’ testimony, it is 

a matter of justifying how much of your work can actually be designated to a small business percentage or a veterans percentage or 

a women’s percentage without jeopardizing what it is you are trying to do, your core business. 

What do you do at SBA or what should we be doing maybe that 

we are not then to help educate the small business owners? Obviously we are not here to talk about women business owners, veterans but all of these different subgroups that we go after, to help 

make them aware of the contracts that are out there so that they 

can benefit and also these agencies can then better meet their 

goals and we can raise those percentages years down the road. 

Mr. JENKINS. Oh, sure. A number of agencies have good strategies that they have put out. One of the things that is very important for agencies to put out is their procurement forecast so that 

they can let the public know what it is that they are intending to 

buy in the coming fiscal year. 

Mr. SCHOCK. I do not mean to interrupt, but does SBA do anything collectively? I mean, obviously, I think it is more difficult for 

DOT, the DOE, Veterans, you know, all of these different agencies 

to do it independently as opposed to the SBA or one central warehouse for businesses to check as opposed to having it, you know. 

Mr. JENKINS. Well, the best place I would suspect would be the 

federal procurement data system. It is a place where anyone can 

go and look at some past history, and what the agencies actually 

have purchased in the previous year. 

The benefit that SBA can bring to the table is our procurement 

center representatives. We have individuals assigned to the various 

agencies, and we look at procurements that they do not want to put 

out for small business. We question those. We ask for market research to establish their reasoning behind not wanting to go small 

business, and we also question if they have met one particular goal, 

21 

are they able to put some contracts in for service disabled veteran 

or are they just loading up in one particular area? 

A good example that would be the small disadvantaged business 

program. That area has exceeded the goal consistently over the period we talked about, but the others have not. So we would like the 

agencies to use the tools that they have, the set-asides, to put more 

contracts in the service disabled veteran area, and that is where 

our PCRs can really play a vital role by looking at what the agencies are doing, questioning them, and actually, in certain cases, appeal their decisions not to set aside in particular areas. 

Mr. SCHOCK. Okay. Thank you. 

Chairman NYE. Okay. I am going to ask our other members to 

ask any questions they wish. I am going to suggest that we try to 

stick to five minutes if we can, just noting the time and we want 

to have sufficient time for the second panel. So I would like to recognize first Ms. Clarke. 

Ms. CLARKE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Nye and Member Schock, I am kind of encouraged by 

this hearing, quite frankly. What I recognize is at the end of the 

day this is about leadership and accountability, and from what I 

have heard today, there is an indication that we have the tools in 

place and we are poised to maximize on inclusiveness and meeting 

our goal across contracting agencies. So I am really, really excited 

about that. 

My first question is for Ms. Wegner, and I want to commend your 

agency for initiating a partnership program with the HUBZone program to promote applications for veterans for certified HUBZone 

status. I have a particular interest in the well-being of women and 

minority-owned business within the body of veteran and service 

disabled veterans’ businesses, and I understand that this is an effort that you plan to continue. 

However, the GAO found that in the past the program was continually subject to fraud and mismanagement, and though I’m an 

optimistic, the American public demands accountability and so does 

this Committee. 

I want to know two things. Do you have data that shows how 

many minority veterans have taken advantage of this partnership 

and a monitoring mechanism to do so? 

And two, what do you and the HUBZone program intend to do 

to mitigate any future fraud, waste or abuse? 

Ms. WEGNER. Just as you have heard that when the SBA posts 

the procurement scorecards everybody pays attention, when the 

GAO issues a report identifying vulnerabilities, everybody pays attention. Those reports came out the middle of last summer. We 

began our partnership with the SBA’s HUBZone office around August of last year after those reports came out. So we knew at that 

point in time that the Small Business Administration’s leadership 

had already taken measures to bolster the program and to make 

sure that it had the resources it needed to put it back on the right 

track. 

Traditionally, the resources had been very minimal. So with SBA 

paying attention to the HUBZone program to make sure it is on 

track, the Department of Veterans Affairs said, ‘‘We need to get 

22 

veterans into the HUBZone program.′′ Have we established measures yet? 

The only measures that we have established so far have been the 

number of veterans that we touched and informed about the 

HUBZone program and the contracting opportunities that arise 

from that and how you apply and the number who actually applied. 

So we are waiting to see how many of those received their certification. 

I will absolutely tell you that in the Department of Veterans Affairs we believe in the HUBZone program. We believe that veterans 

are the best set of owners to go into Historically Underutilized 

Business zone areas and to return those areas to prosperity and to 

lead the nation as role models for how we get this job done and 

how we return to economic stability. 

So I am happy that we are going to continue that and we will 

put effectiveness measures in place as soon as we get the first set 

of the applications certified. 

Ms. CLARKE. Thank you very much, Ms. Wegner. I am encouraged by your response and look forward to seeing all of that come 

to fruition. 

My final question because my time is winding down is to both 

you, Ms. Wegner, and Ms. DeGraffenreid. The OSBDUs could have 

significant impact on small and disadvantaged businesses from the 

authorities given in P.L. 95-507 and the Office of Federal Procurement Policy, Letter No. 79-1, and the Clinton Executive Order of 

Number 129-28. However, I understand that not every SDBU office 

operates with the same level of authority. By law the SBDUs are 

expected to report directly to the head of the agency, but some do 

not and are far removed from the agency leadership. 

Also, the authority seems to lie at the discretion of the contracting officers rather than the SBDUs. Can you describe the impact of the SBDUs that report directly to the heads of agencies and 

those that do not? 

And what challenges do you face trying to promote the maximum 

practicable use of all designated categories within the federal acquisitions process? 

And what can be done to strengthen the effectiveness? 

Ms. DEGRAFFENREID. Yes. I cannot tell you the ones that do not, 

but I can tell you about the ones that do. At the Department of Energy, our Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business is headed 

by—right now the position is vacant. It is a political position, but 

it is headed by a Senate confirmed person who reports to the Secretary, and that is really important because you attend the Secretary’s staff meetings, and you get support from the top. I think 

it is really important for all agencies to have their OSDBU operating at that level because you can put the importance of each program within your agency in setting aside for small business, and 

that is what we are doing in our agency. 

I can say that the OSDBU and our Office of Economic Impact 

and Diversity have already met with our Secretary Chu, who is extremely supportive of the small business program and has given us 

rein to do what we can to be sure that small businesses get a part 

of the Recovery Act, as well as other procurements in the department. 

23 

So I think it is pretty important for each department to have an 

OSDBU. That is at that level, at that ranking level. 

Insofar as Department of Energy is concerned, I would like to 

add this. This is not part of your question, but I would like to say 

that insofar as the Recovery Act is concerned, we have spent much 

time with the committees and the persons who are working on the 

Recovery Act as to what portions are going to be given to small 

business, and in this agency in particular, the main portion that 

will be contracting has to do with environmental management, and 

we look forward to giving a significant portion of those awards to 

small businesses. 

In fact, environmental management has been one of our strongest programs, last year awarding 1.3 billion to small business 

alone. So we look forward to service disabled veterans becoming a 

part of that, and hopefully we have veterans who are in both the 

environmental remediation and the waste areas, and we look forward to them becoming some of Department of Energy’s contractors 

both at the price and subprime contracting level because as I said 

earlier, we are unique and that most of our opportunities are at the 

subcontracting level. 

Ms. CLARKE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank 

you to all the witnesses. This is a great hearing. 

Thank you. 

Chairman NYE. I would like to recognize Mr. Thompson. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Well, thank you. 

Actually my first question is for Ms. Oliver with DoD. Could you 

describe the practices in place through your office to insure prompt 

payment of services for contractors and subcontractors? 

Ms. OLIVER. There used to be something called the paid cost roll, 

which required that—this concerns subcontractors—which required 

that prime contractors could not be paid, could not put it in the 

claim until they were paid. To get the money they had to pay out 

the money to the subcontractor before they could claim the money 

basically. 

That was a very helpful tool and that tool is gone. It does not 

exist anymore. The mechanism for making sure that small businesses are dealt with fairly, paid promptly by the prime contractors 

is mostly a matter of persuasion. There are not actually existing 

tools. Probably the most useful tool for prompt payment when it is 

the government, the Department of Defense, that’s paying is the 

list that the payer’s DFAS goes on if they do not pay promptly. 

I mean, some person gets dinged because their name is on a list 

for work that has not been processed. Finally it comes down to individual people even in organizations as big as the Department of 

Defense. 

There is the interest payment, but every small business will tell 

you they would rather have prompt payment than an interest payment because the interest payment usually does not cover the cost 

of their borrowing. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Does not cover the cash flow to keep the doors 

open as a small business. 

Ms. OLIVER. Exactly, exactly. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Any idea of what the typical for the DoD to, say, 

the contractor, the amount of average time for payment? 

24 

Ms. OLIVER. I probably can find that out. I surely can find out 

more accurately than I could guess. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Okay. I would sooner have accuracy than guesses. 

Ms. OLIVER. Okay. 

Mr. THOMPSON. That would be great. 

And just one more, and I guess I would open this up to the entire 

panel then. Any recommendations on just a better way to streamline that process in terms of prompt payment to contractors? 

Ms. OLIVER. In fairness to my colleagues who do payment, it has 

gotten much, much better. I probably can find those figures for you, 

too. Computers have really helped. 

Some pressure, which is improved staffing, has really helped. 

That is for Department of Defense anyway. 

Mr. SZABAT. Sir, for the Department of Transportation, you 

know, the vast bulk of our money, of course, does not go out directly to contractors, but goes out to states, transit agencies, and 

metropolitan plane organizations. The Federal Highway Administration has taken the lead for us among our surface transportation 

modes in automating that process where we’re in the position now; 

they are in the position now that they can actually do overnight repayment. 

So a bill comes in from the state for a project that has been approved and the money has been obligated, and they can actually 

outlay that money overnight from the time that they get the bill, 

but we are a long way away from meeting a process like that that 

is automated to deal directly with all of our contractors, but I think 

that is the direction that in some cases quickly, in some cases slowly that all of us are moving toward. 

Mr. THOMPSON. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman NYE. Thank you. Thank you very much. 

And I want to go ahead and proceed on to the second panel so 

that we have got sufficient time. 

I want to thank again our witnesses on the first panel for testifying. 

I would like to actually suggest there would be some value here 

in having the members of the first panel remain if they wish to 

hear the ideas and testimony from those who are out in the field 

here, and I would like to ask if you would not mind, please, if the 

first panelists for the record could just let us know if you intend 

to stay or if you have someone else here you could identify who is 

a representative of your agency, if you would let us know who that 

is. 

Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, we can stay for a while. 

Chairman NYE. Okay. Mr. Szabat. 

Mr. SZABAT. I regret I have to go to a meeting at the White 

House with the Recovery Act czars from the states immediately following here, but Ferguise Mayronne from our OSDBU Office will 

be here to represent the department. 

Chairman NYE. Thank you. 

Ms. Wegner. 

Ms. WEGNER. I am delighted to stay. Thank you. 

Chairman NYE. Okay. Ms. DeGraffenreid. 

25 

Ms. DEGRAFFENREID. I can stay as well. 

Chairman NYE. Okay. Ms. Oliver? 

Ms. OLIVER. And I will stay. 

Chairman NYE. Terrific. Thank you very much. the first panel is 

now excused. 

And I would like to invite the members of the second panel to 

take their seats. 

All right. I would like to go ahead and get started, moving on to 

the second panel now, and again, thank you all. I know some of you 

traveled significant distances to be here today, and I really appreciate you taking the time to join us. 

As we did for the first panel, I am going to introduce each panelist one by one and give you an opportunity to give opening remarks, and we are going to ask if you could please try to target 

five minutes or less for your opening statement, and then we will 

have some more time to converse during the Q&A. 

I am going to start with introducing Mr. Mark Klett, owner and 

CEO of Klett Consulting Group in Virginia Beach. Established in 

2002 as a service disabled veteran-owned small business, Klett 

Consulting Group provides innovative operational systems engineering services and professional consulting. 

Thank you for joining us, Mr. Klett. I would like to invite you 

make any opening remarks. 

STATEMENT OF MARK KLETT 

Mr. KLETT. Thank you, Congressman Nye, Congressman Schock, 

distinguished members of the Committee. It is an honor for me to 

speak here on behalf of veteran business owners about doing business with the federal government to insure small and veteran 

owned businesses secure contracts awarded under the American 

Recovery Act. 

I have been in business as a business owner for over six and a 

half years. We have been fortunate to be able to grow at a rate of 

almost 80 percent a year; have 35 employees currently, and we continue to grow in this tough economic environment. 

I served my country for over 20 years, and I am currently a disabled veteran as well. But I am not an anomaly. There are over 

10,000 companies like mine registered in the central contracting 

registration. We are out there. We are able to do the work, and we 

look forward to helping this country move forward in this economic 

situation. 

If you get contracts to us in this stimulus package, companies 

like us, we will hire people today or tomorrow. We typically when 

we get a contract awarded to us, we are hiring people that day. 

I have had situations where we have won a contract. From 

awareness to win was three days, and when money was assigned 

to us we hired 15 people within a week and had them on the 

ground working. 

Recently we had a situation where there was training that was 

required for the Marine Corps out in Hawaii. A contract was established within 48 hours, and we had boots on the ground in Hawaii 

training on a Sunday four days after the contract was awarded. 

The procurement system and the way it is set up right now can 

support these types of things and these requirements, and we can 

26 

do it. I am just showing you the agility that small companies have. 

You give dollars to a small company; our overhead is really small. 

I currently have about eight different jobs which includes cleaning 

bathrooms in our corporate office. Okay? So we do a lot of different 

things. 

If you get money to us through a large company, which I am on 

11 different contracts through large companies, the trickle down effect as you go through the government pass-throughs, the large 

company’s pass-throughs, which are all ethical and legal, you do 

not get that big of a return on the dollar. 

With us you get 100 percent return on the dollar, and you get 

people working, moving right away. So what can you do right now? 

What are some of the solutions, as I heard all of the people out 

there who talked earlier in this hearing? How can Congress help 

the country right now to get things going? 

For proven and performing small and veteran businesses, leverage existing contracts that are in place right now. Allow the ceiling 

and the dollar amount to be raised on existing contracts, and permit the adjustment of the contract periods of performance. Just extend those periods of performance and the scope of work, just those 

existing contracts and the existing scope of work. 

Those things can be done in a matter of weeks, and people can 

be hired, dollars can be put on those contract. These changes are 

the fastest means to deliver funds to small business. This is the 

small business job creation engines, creating new procurement vehicles while a longer term solution will not result in economic stimulus needed today. 

Typically an RFP, request for proposal, can take 18 months to al- locate 25 million to $50 million or larger, but to get to those small 

businesses it’s going to take a while. 

Here is your other problem. The federal procurement process will 

not be able to execute the volume of the stimulus funding without 

assistance. The government acquisition process needs to be streamlined to insure that stimulus funding delivers positive economic impact. 

The federal acquisition work force must be expanded immediately with experienced procurement contracting officers to implement the small business objectives and procurement demands of 

this 18-month stimulus package. You have got to get a bigger acquisition workforce. Again, there is an opportunity to contract some 

of that out. 

So in conclusion here, I greatly appreciate the opportunity to 

speak to this Subcommittee. There are a lot of us out there, small 

businesses, service disabled veteran-owned small businesses. We 

can do the job. We can hire. We can get people out there working 

within the next 30 to 60 days easily. Just get the funding to us. 

Thank you.[The prepared statement of Mr. Klett is included in 

the appendix at page 76.] 

Chairman NYE. Thank you very much, Mr. Klett, for being here. 

I would like to introduce now Mr. Jim Hart, President and CEO 

of ARRIBA Corporation. Mr. Hart was a Navy shipbuilder for 22 

years when he retired and began to explore the field of construction 

and security installations. ARRIBA was established in 1998 in NorVerDate Aug 31 2005 17:56 Mar 27, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00032 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERKS~1\HEARINGS\TRANSC~1\47798.TXT DARIEN
27 

folk, Virginia, certified as an 8(a) and a service disabled veteranowned business. 

Thank you for being with us, Mr. Hart, and I would like to invite 

you to make any opening comments. 

STATEMENT OF JIM HART 

Mr. HART. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of Congress. 

It is really a pleasure and a privilege to be here with you today. 

As the Chairman said, we do construction, and we do heavy construction and we do renovation. Right now we are working on the 

Pentagon, for example, because there is no work down in the Tidewater area, and I will get into that in a second. 

This company of mine works primarily for the federal government. We do not really work for anybody else. We work on bases. 

We work for FEMA. We work for the Coast Guard, the Army Corps 

of Engineers, NAVFAC, Veterans Affairs. You name it, but it is primarily for the federal government. 

We understand how to do business with the federal government. 

We like the structure, and we stay there. 

Service disabled veteran businesses in my belief can actually implement the President’s stimulus package and actually get work 

into the field, get paychecks to the unskilled, semi-skilled people 

quicker than anything else. What I want to speak to today, well, 

I have two points. How did the marketplace for construction for the 

service disabled vet get where it is today, the history of it? 

And number two, what actions can be taken to take advantage 

of the service disabled vets? 

How did we get there today in construction? BRAC is the problem. What happened was the edict was given on October 1st, 2011. 

Unfortunately the program was not funded, but the end dates 

stayed. Up front planning and funding came out of hide for 

NAVFAC and the Army Corps. This was done using regular appropriated funds from the operating budgets and, therefore, maintenance and renovations were deferred. This includes building renovations, HVAC upgrades, road maintenance, roof repairs, et 

cetera. 

In addition, in order to accomplish the monumental task dictated 

the services bundled large projects together so they could manage 

them without adding personnel resources and contracting inspections. Without the funds for either advanced planning or the added 

manpower, the services had no choice but to bundle these contracts 

to mega projects which cut out the small business. 

In 2006, seven and eight, the maintenance budgets for most, if 

not all, of the bases in Tidewater were zeroed out, and the result 

is we are completely dried up. Only the most critical work is being 

done. In 2008, the contracting officer who has just recently retired 

told me that in NAS Oceana, Fighter Town USA, he could spend 

five to $10 million just on the roads, not to include any of the hundred-plus packages that were already designed and budgets developed for, but due to lack of funding were not done. 

Other bases like Dam Neck, Little Creek, Fort Story, Fort Eustis 

are in the same situation. All types of work are required, but no 

funds are available to do the projects, and these are bases only in 

Tidewater. 

28 

Now, we do have the largest number of bases around in the country. So you are talking about a large concentration, but it is the 

same all over Tidewater. 

Here is where the service disabled veteran companies depend on work for growth. Projects of the $250,000 variety to the $3 million 

size is what will grow service disabled veteran companies. 

To sum up where the problem is, BRAC bundled the projects to 

the size that the service disabled contractors could not compete. A 

service disabled veteran contractor, in general, is not going to go 

after a ten million to $25 million contract, and many of them, for 

example, are 40 or 50 and $100 million. 

Right now, today, there are over 200 job openings for qualifies 

inspectors and contract specialists in NAVFAC MIDLANT alone. 

These people need help. What I am telling you is the system is 

stretched too tight. You put money in there, and it is not going to 

do you any good. 

What can be done? Provide funding to the services and the VA 

and other federal agencies to get their maintenance backlog done. 

You don’t have to do any engineering. Your engineering is finished. 

So your up front time is already expended. 

The VA has language and they did not really go into it very 

deeply, but the VA has language in their procurement authority 

that says they can go sole source to a service disabled veteran company to get work done. I would recommend that the President sign 

an executive order authorizing all federal agencies to have that 

tool. 

As part of the funding, include additional funds to outsource the 

inspections and the contract specialists. By using these work packages that are already there, the sole source tool, you are going to 

be able to put funds in the hands of unskilled, semi-skilled, and 

tradesmen all over the country working all of the federal agencies 

that have a backlog. 

Thank you, sir.[The prepared statement of Mr. Hart is included 

in the appendix at page 86.] 

Chairman NYE. Thank you very much, Mr. Hart. 

I am going to yield to Mr. Schock now. 

Mr. SCHOCK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wish to introduce Mr. 

Jim Schmidt from my district in Illinois. Mr. Schmidt is a Vietnam 

veteran and currently President of Hohulin Fence Company located 

in Goodfield, Illinois. 

Hohulin Fence was founded over 100 years ago and is credited 

as being the first to commercially manufacture chain link fence fabric here in the United States. 

Mr. Schmidt, thanks for traveling all the way here, and you are 

welcome to make some statements. 

STATEMENT OF JAMES SCHMIDT 

Mr. SCHMIDT. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and distinguished 

members of the Committee. 

I am James Schmidt, President of Hohulin Fence Company. 

Thank you for the opportunity to present the views of Hohulin 

Fence and our experience as a small, veteran owned business trying to survive in a down economy with limited funding. 

29 

Hohulin Fence Company was established in 1897, some 112 

years ago, as a family owned company in Goodfield, Illinois, a small 

farming community in central Illinois. Hohulin Fence was the first 

company in the United States to weave chain link fence commercial. That first contract was for 396 feet of 48 inch high chain link 

fence with one gate for the grand sum of $26.90 installed. Today 

that would not pay for the gate hardware. 

The Hohulin brothers were an inventive group who took the first 

hand operated machine and engineered and designed an automatic 

weave machine which increased production immensely. The 

Hohulins went on to increase their business, including selling 

weaving machines to Cyclone Fence Company of Waukegan, Illinois, for a World War I base security. Through the years the company survived both World Wars and the Great Depression. 

Although a conservative family, the Hohulins were always able 

to provide for the family and those of their employees. Today 

Hohulin Fence is still family owned. In fact, I married the youngest 

daughter of one of the third generation brothers. I have two 

Hohulin fifth generation employees. We are a union company 

which services approximately a 100 mile radius selling and installing commercial industrial fences to universities, schools, sports facilities, government facilities, private companies, parks, utilities 

and pipeline companies. 

As everyone in this room knows, the current economic climate 

has been extremely difficult for small contractors and the customers we serve. Our larger manufacturing customers continue to 

reduce staffing and cut back production. All municipalities are 

struggling with declining sales tax revenues, and at the same time 

residents have reduced their discretionary spending. 

Every market we serve has been impacted. This has had a direct 

impact on our business. In 2007 we posted revenues of approximately $4 million. In 2008 our revenues were reduced by 15 percent, and would have been off by 33 percent had steel pricing not 

increased so dramatically. Steel is another topic for another day. 

We reduced staffing by 20 percent to adjust for the reduction in 

sales. We have watched smaller competitors close their doors because they could no longer get financing to operate their businesses. As a veteran owned small business I see no advantage for 

us. If I were a disabled veteran, there may be a few more opportunities, but not many. 

I believe if a veteran owned business would receive the same 

benefits as a WBE or DBE, we would have more work available for 

us to bid. Typically, most federally funded projects require a certain percentage of minority participation. We are not able to bid 

many of these projects because we are not considered a minority 

enterprise. 

I know that many of our larger construction contractors struggle 

to fulfill the minority participation on large projects because there 

just are not many WBE and DBE firms in the area. 

Many times companies are brought in from outside the state to 

fill this requirement. I do not think it is fair to a local contractor 

not to be able to bid projects in their own backyard. Also, the WBE 

and DBE are able to place a higher bid and receive the contract. 

With a level playing field, I am confident Hohulin Fence can comVerDate Aug 31 2005 17:56 Mar 27, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00035 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERKS~1\HEARINGS\TRANSC~1\47798.TXT DARIEN
30 

pete in the marketplace, and as a commercial business remaining 

competitive is our responsibility. 

What we need from Congress are the right policy actions to insure the playing field remains level. Congress and the administration must insure that the funds available through the American 

Recovery and Reinvestment Act are made accessible by small business through equitable contract administration. 

Currently our country seems to be paralyzed by the fear of the 

unknown, whether they will have a job or not tomorrow, whether 

they will lose their home or not, whether they can provide for their 

families or not. We are all looking to Washington for an answer. 

Mr. Chairman, I applaud the efforts of you and your colleagues 

on the Committee to bring the voice of small business into this important debate. I look forward to working with you and your colleagues in support of small business in the current economic climate. 

Thank you.[The prepared statement of Mr. Schmidt is included 

in the appendix at page 104.] 

Chairman NYE. Thank you very much, Mr. Schmidt. 

I would like to now introduce Ms. Janice Cavolt, a minority 

owner of JBC Corp. in Virginia Beach, Virginia. She established 

the firm together with her husband, Mr. Brian Cavolt, who is 

though unable to attend today a service disabled veteran. She established the company in 2006. 

Thank you very much for being with us today, and I would like 

to invite you to make any opening remarks you would like to do. 

STATEMENT OF JANICE CAVOLT 

Ms. CAVOLT. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 

Schock, and members of this Subcommittee. Thank you for inviting 

our company to testify before your Subcommittee and discuss insuring stimulus contracts for small and veteran owned businesses. 

My name is Janice Cavolt, and I am representing JBC Corp. and 

presenting testimony for Brian Cavolt, my husband and business 

partner. 

My husband is Brian Cavolt and is a 100 percent rated service 

disabled veteran. He retired as a master chief after 29 years of active duty in the U.S. Navy. Since 2006, he has owned and operated 

JBC Corp., a service disabled veteran-owned small business. 

JBC Corp. is a provider of medical trauma kits for the military. 

Our kits are custom designed and packed to order as specified by 

the government. Our company is located and we reside in the city 

of Virginia Beach, Virginia. 

My military service and experience as an operator and hospital 

corpsman with Special Forces inspired and enabled me to continue 

to serve the active duty war fighter by providing medical kits designed specifically for administering trauma combat casualty care 

under fire. 

As a business owner and veteran, I have regular and continuing 

contact with other veteran owned small businesses. As small business owners, we face many of the same challenges and share the 

same concerns. Currently the economy is our greatest concern. We 

are aware that the economic climate could have a tremendous efVerDate Aug 31 2005 17:56 Mar 27, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00036 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERKS~1\HEARINGS\TRANSC~1\47798.TXT DARIEN
31 

fect on our businesses. We recognize that it is important that we 

position ourselves and not be vulnerable to the unfair practice of 

not being able to bid on contracts that are automatically assigned 

to prime vendors. 

The government has a variety of ways to purchase the items required for its many agencies and departments to conduct business. 

Although the requirements and methods vary, it seems the common objective for the government is to obtain quality products at 

reasonable prices with reliable availability while providing an opportunity for U.S. businesses to progress and become an integral 

component in the economy. 

One method of procurement the government employs is the 

prime vendor contractor. The prime vendor was created to enable 

the government to purchase products for manufacturers who do not 

have contracts of their own with the government. Prime vendors 

are frequently used to obtain and deliver the best equipment to our 

troops at war in an expeditious manner. Prime vendors can be used 

to bypass contracting personnel to expedite orders and eliminate 

the requirement of justification for purchasing a superior, reliable 

product over a less expensive, inferior model with unknown reliability. 

While the reasons stated here seemingly justify the use of prime 

vendors, it is my belief that the very system created to improve the 

procurement of products for our military does not work in a way 

that promotes or insures economic growth and stability for small 

businesses. 

Further, the system does not protect the government from excess 

wasteful spending and in many cases does not adequately serve the 

end users of those purchased products. the prime vendor is a giant 

in the government procurement system. As such, they exercise 

great power over the small business who is trying for the opportunity to get their product to market. Sometimes that power becomes abusive. A small business may take years to develop a product, show it to an interested party, and then find that their only 

recourse to sell in any large volume requires a prime vendor be involved. 

Refusal to accept the terms of business from a prime vendor is 

a no win option as to do so puts your product at risk as it is not 

uncommon for the prime vendor to take your product and actively 

pursue manufacturers that will produce it for them. The tactics 

used by many prime vendors to take advantage of the small business are coercive and frequently test the ethical standards of business. 

We were invited to do business with different prime vendors on 

two separate occasions when our product was being sought for purchase. In both instances we were pressured to get an agreement in 

place quickly so that orders could be received. The main issues addressed in both agreements were the price, payment terms, and 

consequences for default. Both PVs wanted a preferred price going 

so far as to say they needed room to get additional points in their 

markup. 

As manufacturers, we calculate our sell price by taking the actual cost of the item, adding our labor, other overhead costs, and 

factoring a conservative markup. We have found that in most cases 

32 

the prime vendor’s markup often matches our profit. The idea that 

both entities make the same profit when the work for each is considerably different does not seem fair or equitable. 

It is the attitude of the prime vendors we have done business 

with that makes us reluctant to keep doing business through such 

a vehicle. 

And in the interest of time I am going to jump ahead here just 

to what our suggestions are or what we have observed. 

It is suggested that government procurement regulations be reviewed, modernized, and streamlined to give equal opportunity to 

multiple American businesses. 

In addition, it is an opportunity to renovate a system that has 

become inefficient and that places cost containment and the ability 

to provide items in a timely manner secondary to finding the easiest way to push an order through. 

There are procurement methods in place and available that with 

modification could significantly elevate the opportunity for small 

businesses to compete. Those would include being able to raise the 

limits that credit cards can be used. Sole source contracts should 

go directly to the manufacturer of the product. 

And I am out of time, but I thank you for the time to be able 

to present. This is my oral testimony, but my statement is in its 

full edition, and I would appreciate if you would take the time to 

read it. 

Thank you.[The prepared statement of Ms. Cavolt is included in 

the appendix at page 106.] 

Chairman NYE. Thank you very much, and yes, we did get a 

written statement from you which we will submit as part of the official record. So thank you very much. 

I would like to recognize now Mr. Justin Brown, a Legislative Associate for the Veterans of Foreign Wars. Mr. Brown himself is a 

veteran of the U.S. Navy, having participated in Operation Southern Watch and Operation Iraqi Freedom. 

The VFW is the nation’s oldest major veteran group with more 

than 1.7 million veterans who have served our nation overseas. 

And thank you, Mr. Brown. I appreciate you being here with us, 

and we would be happy to hear your opening remarks. 

STATEMENT OF JUSTIN BROWN 

Mr. BROWN. Thank you, Chairman Nye and Ranking Member 

Schock, counsel. 

On behalf of the 2.2 million member of the Veterans of Foreign 

Wars of the United States and our auxiliaries, I would like to 

thank this Committee for the opportunity to testify and for its rigor 

in pursuing contracting issues on behalf of veterans. The issues 

under consideration today are timely and of great importance to 

our members and the entire veteran population. 

During this economic recession, the number of unemployed veterans has increased to nearly one million as of February. That is 

an increase of more than 400,000 since last November and an increase of more than half of one million since last April. There are 

twice as many unemployed veterans as there were one year ago, 

33 

and there are as many unemployed Iraq and Afghanistan veterans 

as there are men and women currently serving in Iraq. 

Make no mistake. Our service members are leaving Iraq, coming 

home, and fighting another war against unemployment, homelessness, bankruptcy, and a host of medical conditions. With a lack of 

opportunity, many service members are likely considering self-employment. Unfortunately, the economic stimulus was stripped of 

the language that would facilitate a stimulus for veterans in both 

business and employment. 

Furthermore, a large amount of the stimulus will be spent in the 

form of state grants bypassing federal laws in regards to contracting. In order for veterans to succeed in small business we need 

training; we need capital; we need parity; and we need compliance. 

Veterans’ access to capital needs to be increased and diversified. 

For many veterans, the Patriot Loan Program is not an option because their loans are being denied by lenders even with the guarantee. The VFW suggests creating a direct loan program via the 

SBA. This would allow SBA to have an array of financial tools 

available to veteran start-ups and veterans in business. 

Also, there is an extraordinarily small amount of resources being 

diverted towards educational programs for veterans’ entrepreneurship. In Fiscal Year 2008, SBA’s operational budget was $888,000. 

This funded SBA’s five business centers and various forms of outreach. The VFW would like to see these programs greatly expanded 

to include various locations throughout the country. 

In fact, not one member of this entire Committee has a veterans 

small business center located in their congressional district. 

Furthermore, veterans should not be taking the back seat to any 

other government contracting program, including HUBZone. Because HUBZone’s language in the Federal Acquisition Regulation 

includes ‘‘shall‘‘ instead of ‘‘may,‘‘ GAO ruled that HUBZone has 

priority over veterans’ contracting. The Veterans of Foreign Wars 

objects to this determination and urges Congress to return parity 

to the aforementioned programs. 

If the VFW were to sum up the current state of veterans’ business and procurement in one word, it would be complacency. There 

are extremely limited options in regards to veterans’ access to capital, few options for education, and a host of federal agencies that 

after nearly a decade continually and willfully fail to abide by their 

public mandates. 

Their failure to abide by these mandates for such an extended 

period of time challenges the very authority of this body by woefully ignoring the laws that it passes. If the past is any indicator, 

we will be back next year looking at slightly better numbers, but 

hearing the same old song from the agencies in question. 

The VFW demands, in compliance with the laws our veterans so 

proudly defended, that three percent of the economic stimulus contracts go to small disabled veteran-owned businesses. 

To help alleviate our one million unemployed veterans, the VFW 

also calls on the veteran businesses that receive these contracts to 

publicly establish a veteran employment preference. 

As America’s largest group representing combat veterans, we 

thank you for allowing the Veterans of Foreign Wars to present its 

opinion on federal contracting in regards to the economic stimulus. 

34 

Veteran entrepreneurship, if expanded, is a win-win for everyone, 

including the government and America’s taxpayers. 

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my testimony, and I will be 

pleased to respond to any questions you or the members of this 

Subcommittee may have. 

Thank you.[The prepared statement of Mr. Brown is included in 

the appendix at page 110.] 

Chairman NYE. Okay. Thank you, again, for being with us. 

And I would finally like to recognize Mr. Joseph Sharpe from the 

American Legion. Mr. Sharpe is the Deputy Director for Economics 

for the American Legion. He entered the U.S. military and was deployed twice overseas in Operation Joint Force in BosniaHerzegovina, and recently for the Global War on Terrorism in Iraq 

for which he received the Bronze Star. 

The American Legion was chartered by Congress in 1919 as a 

veterans organization which now numbers nearly three million 

members. 

Thank you, Mr. Sharpe for being with us, and we would be 

happy to hear your opening comments. 

STATEMENT OF JOSEPH SHARPE 

Mr. SHARPE. Chairman Nye, Ranking Member Schock, thank you 

for the opportunity to present the American Legion’s view on federal contracting opportunities for small business in relation to veterans. 

The American Legion views small business as the backbone of 

the American economy. It is the mobilizing force behind America’s 

past economic growth and will continue to be a major factor as we 

move well into he 21st Century. Reports show that businesses with 

fewer than 20 employees account for 90 percent of all U.S. firms 

and are responsible for more than 97 percent of all new jobs, generating $993 billion in income in 2006 and employs 58.6 million people. There are 27 million small businesses in the United States and 

89.7 percent of all firms are small businesses. 

In Fiscal Year 2007, the Small Business Administration’s Office 

of Government Contracting reported that more than 378.5 billion 

in federal contracts identified as small business eligible. Small 

businesses only received a total of 83 billion in prime contract 

awards and about 64 billion in subcontracts. 

Service disabled veteran-owned businesses were recipients of 

3.81 billion, or about 1.01 percent, of all those available contract 

dollars. America has benefited immeasurably from the service of its 

26 million living veterans who have made great sacrifices in the defense of freedom, preservation of the democracy, and protection of 

the free enterprise system. Due to the experience veterans gain in 

the military, the success rate of veteran owned businesses is higher 

than other non-veteran owned businesses. 

The current War on Terror has had a devastating impact on our 

Armed Forces and has contributed to exaggerating the country’s 

veteran unemployment problem, especially within the guard and 

reserve components of our military. According to the Department 

of Labor, the present unemployment rate for recently discharged 

35 

veterans is an alarming 20 percent, and one out of every four veterans who do find employment earn less than 25,000 per year. 

Unfortunately, many of the thousands of service members who 

are currently leaving the service are from combat arms and nonskilled professions that are not readily transferable to the civilian 

labor market. 

One way of combating unemployment is through the creation of 

new jobs. Small business creates an estimated 60 percent to 80 percent of all net new jobs, therefore providing an essential element 

for a strong economic growth. Government should insist in the creation of new jobs by encouraging qualified entrepreneurs to start 

expanding their small businesses, and no group is better qualified 

or deserving of this type of assistance than our veterans. 

The American Legion believes that the majority of funding allocated veteran military projects through this as well as future 

spending bills should be spent exclusively with veteran owned 

firms. It was the veteran who volunteered to defend this nation, 

the veteran who continues to keep our democracy intact, and the 

veteran who deserves the right to participate in rebuilding America’s infrastructure and other necessary projects. 

In this capacity, the veteran will continue to serve the people of 

the United States by building and growing strong, reliable, dependable businesses. 

The mission of the American Legion’s national economic mission 

is to take action that affects the economic well-being of veterans, 

including issues relating to veterans’ employment, home loans, vocational rehabilitation, homelessness and small business. 

Small business continues to be a primary job generator and a 

major trainer for American employees. The small business firm 

work force includes more young and entry level workers than colleges and large businesses combined. It is vital that veteran-owned 

and service disabled veteran-owned businesses receive a fair proportion of the amount of federal contracts, are paid promptly for 

services rendered so these veterans can build and maintain successful businesses while they contribute to this down economy. 

The American Legion reiterates the Small Business Administration Office of the Veterans Business Development should be the 

lead agency to insure that veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are provided with entrepreneur development assistance. 

We look forward to continuing work with this Committee to enhance entrepreneurship among American veterans. Thank you, 

Chairman Nye and Ranking Member Schock, for allowing the 

American Legion to present our views on this very important 

issue.[The prepared statement of Mr. Sharpe is included in the appendix at page 114.] 

Chairman NYE. Thank you very much, Mr. Sharpe. You and the 

other members of the panel have quite rightly recognized today the 

important role of veterans in our society and recognizing their service to our country, and I appreciate you helping us echo that sentiment. 

I want to say, first and foremost, thank you to all of you who 

have served and are veterans yourselves, and please extend our 

thanks to those members of your organizations and your companies 

36 

that have served our country. We appreciate their service. That’s 

why we wanted to hold this hearing, to make sure that we recognize the role of veterans in our community and in our economy, 

and in trying to do everything we can to help them get access to 

contracts and jobs. 

I also would like to expand that comment a little bit to thank 

members of our military families, and I want to note that we have 

voted in the last few days actually here in the House to designate 

this year as the Year of the Military Family. We very much recognize that military families work just as hard and serve and struggle as much as our veterans do, and we appreciate your role there. 

So thank you very much for that. 

I think this has been a very productive hearing in the sense that 

we have gotten to hear from you who represent businesses and veterans organizations, and I want to thank you all for being very 

frank and very forthcoming with specific ideas of things that we 

can change to hopefully move things forward. We recognize the 

great challenge here being that we have got funds coming for recovery. We would like those funds to create jobs. That is what they 

are designed to do. 

We obviously need to have a system in place that works. We 

have problems with the system as it is now. We want to fix those 

so that going forward we don’t look back in a year or two and say, 

well, we wish we had thought ahead a little bit and planned a little 

bit better. We want o look back and say we are really glad that we 

took the time to think ahead to how to tackle these challenges and 

make this work better. 

I want to start by asking our business owners here if you could 

just comment about Veterans Affairs has a list of veteran owned 

and service disabled businesses, and I wanted to ask you are you 

on that list and can you give us any comments on your interaction 

with the VA in terms of that list? Is it helpful? You know, what 

can we do to make it better? 

And then I’m going to ask you to just comment please on training 

opportunities that VA programs offer for veterans in terms of approaching the procurement process. 

But let’s start just by asking you if you wouldn’t mind commenting on the list that the Veterans Affairs keeps of veterans and 

whether or not you are on there and if you think that works. 

Mr. KLETT. I am Mark Klett. I am personally on the list with the 

Veterans Affairs and also a number of other lists within the government, and we do get a lot of spam of wonderful opportunities 

within the government. You have to be able to filter through all of 

that. 

As small businesses, it is very difficult to try to focus in on just 

the right opportunity to stay within your capabilities and what 

you’re really good at. So you have to filter through all of those 

things. 

To make one other comment about the great training programs, 

as you’re a new and an entrepreneur starting out, those are very 

good. In my particular case, 20 years of service, six years doing 

procurement with the military, six years of working with the large 

defense companies as a program manager before I started my business, I was pretty well trained and a ready up round, but starting 

37 

the business, it was pretty good to go through some of these training programs, and I do refreshers and send some of our people to 

some of those programs. 

So it is good. It is helpful. It is needed, and that is what you need 

to have to go to that baseline. 

Mr. HART. ARRIBA is also on the list, and in order to be certified 

as a service disabled veteran, you really ought to be in that list for 

the VA and the rest of the organizations, it is my belief. 

After doing 22 years in the Navy, I went into ship repair for 18, 

and then I became an entrepreneur, if you will, and started my 

own business in construction. That shows I am not really that 

smart, but what happened was I as well came with a background 

of working with the federal government with contracting. I did not 

really understand how to market. 

And the statement about PTACs, they are absolutely wonderful. 

The actual training that the SBA provides, the free training they 

provide, I go to it all the time. I always pick up a little something 

or I will meet somebody, and so that is something that needs to be 

expanded, in my belief. 

Mr. SCHMIDT. I really have not had any experience with the veterans. Obviously I am listed because Bradley University in Peoria 

administers the economic development, and I was receiving bid opportunities from them prior to the FedBidOpps. There was Commerce Business Daily, which was very, very difficult to use. 

Unfortunately, the classifications that I fit into are so limited, 

but the classifications are so broad that I was receiving numerous 

opportunities for things like helicopter parts and stuff that did not 

even apply to me. 

The other problem was that, again, the classification of a small 

business included, you know, such a range that if it was a bid for 

chain link fence, let’s say, or for a razor ribbon, which I do not 

manufacture, I would have to purchase and resell it. I was actually 

bidding against my manufacture. So there was really no opportunity there for us at all, and actually I was getting so much that 

did not apply that I asked them to quit sending them. It just didn’t 

apply. 

Ms. CAVOLT. Hi. We are on the VA list. Generally we receive notices from FedBizOpps, and also being in one of the largest military 

communities and our product serves the military specifically, we 

frequently have the different commands coming to us asking us for 

our product because we do work with them to basically custom and 

specialize it for what their needs are. 

As far as the training we have received, Small Business has really helped us with the programs that they have. The American Legion in conjunction with Small Business has really been very helpful, and I look forward to seeing what I can find out from the VFW 

as well. But that would be it. 

Thank you. 

Chairman NYE. Thanks. 

Well, we do not want to put you on the spot, Mr. Brown, but I 

do want to give you and Mr. Sharpe a chance to comment on this 

question about the training programs if you have anything you 

would like to add about your experience from your membership. 

38 

Mr. BROWN. Sure. My experience with the training programs, 

and thank you for the question, Mr. Chairman, is that they are 

very good. The problem is there is not enough of them, and they 

are located in very limited geographic regions. There is only eight 

across the country. I think there is only one on the West Coast, 

which is California. 

So our experience at the VFW is just plain out there there is not 

enough of the centers, and there is not enough funding for SBA to 

expand the centers. 

Also TVC was running three of the centers, and now that they 

are no longer receiving funding, those three centers are also in 

danger of going under, if you will. So we are hoping to see their 

funding rediverted under SBA, and we would like to see the whole 

program be expanded. 

Thank you. 

Mr. SHARPE. Because there is a real lack of training, that is one 

reason why the American Legion formed its own business task 

force, and with those task force members we have started conducting our own training for veterans. Currently the SBA has five 

centers. They are under funded. TVC had three centers. They are 

also under funded, and it looks like they may possibly close if we 

do not get funding to them right away. 

I understand there is over 100 women’s business centers, but 

with only eight centers that are all under funded, we do not consider there being much of a training program. 

We just had our Washington conference last year. We did a one 

day training class. It was standing room only, and it appears that 

seems to be the situation across the country. There is a dire need 

for training, and it is not there. 

Chairman NYE. Thanks. 

You know, that is something I hear actually from a large number 

of veterans constantly, is that they would take advantage of programs more often if they actually were informed better about what 

is out there already. So we need to take a look at that as well. 

Let me just ask, and just in the interest of time I do want to give 

Mr. Schock an opportunity to ask whatever questions he has, too. 

I want to just ask the business owners if you could tell me just 

very briefly how do you find out about your contracts. I mean, 

where do you get the information for the contracts that you get? 

And if there is one, the principal thing that you could change 

about the federal procurement system, what would be on the top 

of your list? 

Mr. KLETT. Most of the contracts that we win, and we have a 

very high win percentage, I find out directly from my customers. 

If you see it on a public announcement, it is too late. So it is direct 

marketing, directly to your end customers, and that is basically 

how you do it or we get references or people that call us. I mean 

that’s how it is because we have been in the business quite a while. 

That is how it is. 

Mr. HART. Congressman, we do it two ways. Direct marketing is 

one, and of course, we are an 8(a) company. We do have the ability 

to get sole source contracts, and that is the way you have to do the 

individual marketing to get that. 

39 

But in our general contracting, we will do a couple of things. 

One, FedBizOpps is a good tool, but we will go to the various agencies and look at what their forecasts are, and many times you can 

find out who the project manager is in that agency for that forecasted project that you find interesting, and then you go talk to 

that individual so that they will know who you are when you submit your proposal. 

Now, your proposals are going to cost you anywhere from 60,000 

to $125,000 in construction. So you don’t do too many of those and 

lose. 

Mr. SCHMIDT. Since we do not deal directly with the federal government, our projects are basically federally funded, being an airport, and I subscribe to a private information service that I get notifications of bids coming up in our area, and also through our general contractors mainly. 

Unfortunately even on an airport job where there may be a lot 

of fence, it does not go to the fence contractor. It goes to a general 

contractor, and therein is a problem because if it was separated 

out, you know, I think we are capable of handling that project on 

our own, but we do not get that opportunity. 

Then, again, if there is a minority participation involved, I mean, 

there was one recently that we could not even bid it because, you 

know, we were not minority at all. So it is unfortunate, but we take 

what we can get. 

Ms. CAVOLT. I think I actually mentioned before that we use 

FedBizOpps quite a bit, and also looking up our codes on DLA because any contracting we do basically comes through DSCP. 

I think that the greatest thing that the government could do to 

help stimulus is, well, I am going to say two things. One is accountability. Make sure that what we have in place is working, 

that the quotas are being met for what should be set-asides, and 

also empowering those people who actually have training within 

the government to buy. Currently buyers are limited to a $3,000 

purchase on a credit card, when, you know, we are in a product 

business. Three thousand dollars does not buy a whole lot, and 

those limits could be raised, again, with accountability. 

There is always the concern for fraud, I think, in any business 

or any arm of the government, but accountability and empowering 

the people who are already there. 

Thank you. 

Chairman NYE. I want to make sure I reserve as much time as 

Mr. Schock would like. So I am going to recognize him for as much 

time as he would like to use. 

Mr. SCHOCK. Well, I think we have until what, three o’clock? Is 

that when votes start? 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. SCHOCK. You know, I would like to take a different approach. 

You know, you all were in the audience when the government 

agencies presented their testimony. You all submitted the testimony you just gave days in advance of hearing that testimony. So 

I want to give each one of you the opportunity to kind of respond 

to those agencies who were here today, their testimony, and I want 

to hear your reaction to it and any comments you would like to 

40 

have us, as your members of Congress and your representatives 

here to know. 

So let’s just go down the line here, and I want to give you the 

opportunity to take a couple of minutes to respond. Mr. Klett. 

Mr. KLETT. Yes, sir. And I know for the Department of Defense 

I do all of my contracting with the Department of Defense. I will 

make a few comments on that. 

Their current strategic plan for 2009 is to continue on that slope 

at the same rate, to hit a goal. It is Public Law 106-50, which says 

three percent of all federal contracts will be for service disabled 

veterans, a minimum of three percent, and that is law. 

And they should be going for that goal, and there are ways of 

doing it for both subcontractors and prime contracts. I personally 

am on 11 different contracts for large companies doing defense 

work, and I typically am getting about one percent of that contract 

each year, exactly the goal, and we do really neat, big stuff on aircraft carrier architecture design and integrating systems, strategic 

support for the Pacific missile range, a lot of big programs that 

have people with 22 inch foreheads are working on. Okay? 

But we are only getting that piece that is being in the strategic 

plan. We can do a lot more than that, and it is unfortunate that 

the goal is there. 

In the VA they have set a seven percent goal, and guess what 

they are hitting: eight percent. So if the leadership sets it and attacks it and goes for it aggressively, it will be done. I guarantee 

it. There is no hammer within the Department of Defense to really 

try to attain some of those goals unfortunately, and I would like 

them to try to hit a three percent goal. It can be done, and qualified, good people are out there to really do it. We have a $30 million prime contract that we were awarded six 

months ago, the second largest one in the Navy seaport, contract 

for over five years, and we have only been funded at about 

$100,000 so far, doing things to get critical equipment and critical 

capabilities to the forward war fighters in the Global War on Terrorism. 

So the vehicles are there. There is funding out there to do these 

things. It is just not getting to the service disabled veterans because the leadership within the Department of Defense does not 

have its arms around it. And I hope we get more work now. 

Chairman NYE. Thank you. 

Mr. KLETT. Thank you very much for that question. 

Mr. HART. To go down the table, the SBA is doing a great job. 

They are woefully under funded. They need help. 

The Department of Transportation, they do things that I do not 

do. We do security systems, but they do not want to do a security 

system for a small region. They want to do the State of Virginia. 

Well, unfortunately we do large security systems, several million 

dollar security systems, but I could not do the surveillance system 

for all of the roads in the State of Virginia. You know, they are not 

interested in breaking things up, which is fine with me. That is not 

a problem. 

The VA has got the teeth that everybody needs, and they have 

the authority to do sole source contracting. A case in point. they 

needed security upgrades to their VA medical centers in VISN 6, 

41 

which is out of Hampton. We received a sole source contract for 

right at $2 million to go do that, and we are in the process of doing 

that for them, and we are doing the design and installation all at 

the same time. So you get two things. You save time and you save 

a lot of money. 

To follow on with that, their competitive procurements are service disabled. That is their prime focus, and that is not an after the 

fact with them. That is up front with them. We have won competitively a $1.3 million mass announcing system. It is part of your 

anti- terrorism package for a large hospital. That is what the VA 

is doing. The VA is out front. This is what the rest of the federal 

agencies need. they need the same language that the VA has. 

As far as DoD, as far as constructions are concerned, they are 

not even setting aside one-half of one percent. They are bundling 

contracts. They are using mass contracts for the large players, and 

the latest wrinkle is for the large contractor to go out and find another large contractor to subcontract to and then say, well, now, 

look. You go find a service disabled veteran contractor, and we are 

going to sign two combined contracts, and what is going to happen 

is we will just work with you in the service disabled veteran contract and we will not even have to bond it, and we will just do a 

pass-through and just add another $100,000 onto your bid and 

bring them in as a shell game. 

And I have one of those contracts for you if you would like to 

have it, and, Congressman, I have provided it to your office. This 

is the latest wrinkle, and this thing actually is a two-part contract 

which allows the prime to cancel the contract with VA service disabled member, keep the contract with the second tier sub, and 

pocket the difference’s profit. 

That is pretty good. Now, that is your trickle down using big 

businesses to work the service disabled veterans. That is the biggest hooey I have ever heard in my life, and I refuse to do it. 

Mr. SCHMIDT. I had minority ownership in Hohulin since 1994. 

In 2007, I had an opportunity to buy out some non-active, non-participating partners that held the majority of the stock. Our local 

bank, it is a very small, private owned bank. I had approached 

them obviously because we had been doing all of our business with 

them. All of our lending, all of our everything had been with the 

local bank. Because of a weak balance sheet, they preferred to run 

a loan basically, what I needed to borrow to buy the rest of the 

company through the SBA. 

That started in March of 2007, and it took approximately almost 

four months to get to the point where I received some sort of approval, and the problem was that literally every two to three weeks 

I would get another road block, a request for more paper work, 

more paper work, more documentation, and it was really getting ridiculous. 

I would have to call and say, ‘‘Where are we at with this?’’ and 

the bank would go, ‘‘I do not know. Let me call and find out.’’ 

It just dragged on and on, and interesting enough, I approached 

another bank. I was wanting to stay the course. I was wanting to 

get this finished so that we could complete the purchase, and I 

went to another local bank, another private owned but larger bank, 

and the owner came out literally the next day, and within an hour 

42 

and a half we had a verbal approval. Within two weeks it was 

done, and we did not have to put up the collateral that was required for the SBA. 

So, again, you know, if there was that risk, the other bank did 

not see that and went on what we showed them, which was the 

same documentation we showed the SBA. 

Again, I do not deal with the DoD. I do not deal directly with 

the large government agencies directly because we are in a very 

small area, but as far as the Department of Transportation, our 

state really does not have much funding at all. I mean, coming into 

our area is very little money. 

So you know, business opportunities really are not there at this 

time. One thing, I was encouraged when the Recovery Act was proposed was there was going to be a Buy American clause in there. 

You know, we are an American company. I am an American and 

proudly an American. You know, America is the strongest country 

in the world, and our company is proud to sell American made 

products. 

But I see the proliferation of foreign products in our industry 

specifically, and that is disheartening because it does not give me 

any advantage at all because if I am trying to compete with a foreign made product with an American made product, it is not level 

at all. It is not fair. You know, there may be a specification come 

out; in fact, it just happened recently for, you know, a six foot tall 

fence with barbed wire and certain sized posts and that, but that 

was the end of it. It did not say, you know, to be American made 

products. 

I know that the school system is saying that now. I am glad to 

see that, use American made products, but it is just not fair to let 

foreign made products come into the marketplace. It puts us at another disadvantage. 

Ms. CAVOLT. First I would like to say that I did appreciate everything the first panel had to say in response to your question. I 

think it is probably the largest gathering of government officials 

that I have heard acknowledge that there are goals that are not 

being reached, and it was very nice to hear that they realize we 

have a ways to go, and I sincerely hope that having heard what 

we are saying that they can understand and recognize what our 

problems are and go forward and take care of some of those with 

the assistance, of course, of Congress. 

I think, you know, Ms. Oliver addressed the issue of payment, of 

prompt payment, and it is a problem particularly with the small 

business. Sometimes, as Mr. Schmidt will say, taking time to get 

bank loans can be extremely—first of all, it is very time consuming 

and you do not always know what you are going to get in the end. 

I find for ourselves as a small, emerging business, that because 

of the size of the contracts that we do manage, and we are going 

through the prime vendor, one of the greatest problems we are having is there is no way that we can put grievance if we are not being 

treated fairly. 

Right now I am having payment withheld by a subcontractor, 

and I have nobody to talk to to help me with it, and if I do not 

rectify it, there is a good chance that my business could go under 

just because of the amount of money. 

43 

But, again, my comment about accountability, that is why it becomes so important, and just one other comment I would like to 

make about that is when prime vendors are renewed, they go to 

the customer and say, ‘‘Well, how was it? Did it work for you?’’ And 

yet the subcontractor is never asked did it work for you. Were you 

able to work with this company? Because you do not know. A prime 

vendor may be showing great success, but they are jumping from 

business to business, and there are some very good prime vendors. 

So please understand I am not on a mission to try to get rid of that 

system because it is a very valuable system and it works, but it 

just needs oversight and accountability so that smaller businesses 

that are using prime vendors can be assured that they will get paid 

and that they have the opportunity to grow. 

Thank you. 

Mr. BROWN. Congressman Schock, thank you for the question. 

In regards to the agencies’ testimony before this, I mean, it has 

been ten years since we passed this law. We cannot even say we 

are halfway there. The preliminary numbers are showing 1.4 percent of these contracts are going to small, disabled veteran-owned 

businesses. I would not be half shocked if I started raffling through 

the old testimony and it did not look nearly similar to what was 

submitted today. So that is kind of where we are at. 

We are ready to see some action and tired to talk. 

Thank you. 

Mr. SCHOCK. thank you. 

Mr. SHARPE. The American Legion perspective on this is that 

there is just not enough buy-in from the various federal agencies 

from the top. You know, the individuals who spoke today are not 

those who make the decisions on whether or not to help the veterans or not. For the last few years we have worked pretty closely 

with both House committees, small business House committees, 

and I mean the Senate and the House, and I have to say both committees were very active as far as especially working with SBA and 

really pushing the federal agencies to do what should be done. 

And, frankly, many of them just refuse to do it. It takes a lot of 

work to get a bill passed and then get it implemented and then get 

it funded. But if the head of the SBA or DoD just refused to implement what has already been passed, it tells the veteran that we 

really do not see you as a viable partner, and it is really a missed 

opportunity. 

Those of us who have been overseas, we come back with a lot of 

expertise and we still have that same belief in completing the mission, and we probably are the best partners to try and get anything 

done that the country needs completed. And when these agencies 

do not recognize that, they would rather do business as usual with 

the large contractors, not really paying attention to where the 

money is going and how it is used or how effective it is, that is disheartening for a lot of these business owners who are veterans, and 

that is the problem. 

If you pass the bill and the Administrator of SBA refused to implement it, you can see there would be a lot more shock. He has 

had a budget of $750,000 for the last three or four years. What can 

he do with that? He has to run five business centers. They have 

to try and monitor all compliance from the various federal agencies 

44 

with a staff of next to nothing, and then you have DoD who has 

one of the largest budgets and they still have not been able to 

make a three percent goal. 

That tells people that we really do not want to do business with 

you, and it comes from the top. 

Mr. SCHOCK. Thank you for your candid responses, and I sincerely appreciate it. It has been very helpful to me. 

So thank you, Mr. Chairman. I hand it back to you. 

Chairman NYE. I just want to thank members of both of our panels again for being here today, and again, I think the theme here 

is that we have got some work to do. I was surprised to hear, but 

actually I want to give some credit to the agency representatives 

here for being frank about the fact that they have not done what 

they need to do. In some areas we are making some progress, but 

what we want to avoid here is exactly what Mr. Brown described. 

We do not want to look back again in the future and say after the 

testimony we heard today and find that it is very similar to testimony given many years ago and have the same testimony given 

two years from now. 

We would like to see progress made in this area that we can 

measure, and again, I want to thank all of those who traveled from 

quite some distance to be with us, to share with us your stories. 

I am a firm believer in the notion that in order for us to improve, 

we have got to hear ideas coming from outside Washington. So we 

really appreciate you taking the time to be with us here today and 

share your anecdotes with us. 

And as I mentioned before, we will be continuing to keep up with 

our agencies and very interested to see and track the progress, particularly with those who have established special agencies or special committees or a special oversight body to track this, and we 

will be keeping up with the progress we are making on that. 

Again, thank you all very much for being here today. I want to 

ask unanimous consent that members have five days to submit 

statements and supporting materials for the record, and without 

objection, so ordered. 

Thank you very much, again, all for being here. This hearing is 

now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:37 p.m., the Subcommittee meeting was adjourned.] 

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