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U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

PUBLIC HEARINGS

REGARDING EPA OBJECTIONS TO 36 DRAFT NPDES PERMITS

FOR DISCHARGES ASSOCIATED WITH COAL MINING 

______________________________________________________

Transcript of Public Hearing held on

June 7, 2012, commencing at 7 p.m.

Eastern Kentucky Exposition Center

126 Main Street

Pikeville, Kentucky

Lisa M. Schwarze, RPR, KyCCR

Registered Professional Reporter
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MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Good evening, 

everyone. If you could please take your seats. 

We would like to get started. My name is Charlie 

MacPherson, and I'll be facilitating tonight's 

session. 

My role tonight is to ensure that as many 

people as possible have the opportunity to share 

comments and that we do so in a safe and secure 

environment. So to help achieve those objectives, 

I just want to review a couple of the ground 

rules. Everyone should have a copy of these 

ground rules on the agenda that you should have 

picked up on your way in. But I just want to 

review a couple of them. First of all, please 

show courtesy to all the speakers. Everyone 

deserves a chance to be heard, and please respect 

when they are speaking. Any disruptions is just 

going to take time away from another speaker. So 

I appreciate that. 

Second, for the speakers we have established 

time limits; again, so that we can try to hear as 

many comments as possible tonight. So please 

adhere to those time limits so that our other 

speakers can also share their comments. In terms 

of if you have cell phones, please turn off the 
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ringers, put them on vibrate. If you do need to 

have any conversations, please do so outside of 

the hearing area out of respect to the other 

speakers. 

In addition to your agenda that you have, it 

is a white piece of paper, on the back side is a 

form that you can use to submit any written 

comments that you have. And you can leave that at 

the registration table. These written comments, 

in addition to the statements that are being made 

tonight and any other materials that you want to 

leave, will all be made part of the administrative 

record. In addition, we are making a transcript 

of everything that's being said tonight, and that 

will be made available on EPA's website. 

Finally, we are providing sign language 

interpreters tonight for anyone who might need 

that service. I just want to see if there is 

anyone in the room, if you could stand up, that 

does need the sign language services so we could 

move you closer to the front. Okay, I don't see 

anyone at this time. But I'll ask at one more 

point during the hearing. 

I want to briefly review the process we're 

going to follow for making our statements tonight. 
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Everyone who has expressed interest or registered 

on-line to make a statement should have received a 

speaker number in the upper corner on an orange 

sheet of paper. So if you think you are 

registered but you have not received this, please 

go out to the registration table now so you can 

get your number. Okay, I'll be going into more 

detail about the speaking process after our 

opening remarks. 

But at this time, I would like to introduce 

Jim Giattina, who is the presiding officer for 

this hearing. 

MR. GIATTINA: Thank you, Charlie. Good 

evening, everyone. I'm Jim Giattina, Director of 

the Water Protection Division of the U.S. 

Environmental Protection Agency's regional office 

in Atlanta, Georgia. EPA's Regional Administrator 

has designated me to conduct this public hearing. 

Mark Nuhfer, chief of our municipal and industrial 

permit section, is assisting me this evening. And 

I want to thank everybody for being here, and I 

appreciate the City of Pikeville for allowing us 

to hold the hearing here this evening. 

As I said, let me start by thanking you for 

being here. I know you are very busy folks. And 
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I want to say that we recognize that coal mining 

operations are critically important to Kentucky 

and for meeting our energy needs as a nation. We 

recognize that many of you are worried about jobs. 

We also know that many of you are concerned about 

the impacts coal mining may have on your health 

and environment. The purpose of this hearing is 

to listen to your concerns, especially as they 

relate to the 36 permits the EPA has objected to 

that are the subject of this hearing. 

I want to note that EPA and the Kentucky 

Energy and Environment Cabinet have been working 

over the past two years to identify a set of 

common sense practices and appropriate permit 

conditions that we believe protect and will 

improve water quality while addressing the 

industry's concerns for clarity and cost 

effectiveness. Most of these practices have been 

developed by experts here in Kentucky and are 

beginning to be implemented at local mines. For 

example, some mining companies are redesigning 

mines to reduce the number, size, and location of 

fills, they are more carefully monitoring 

pollution levels in stream biology at their mines, 

and using realtime adaptive management techniques 
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to prevent problems downstream. They are 

beginning to find, target, and isolate specific 

sources of pollutants to keep them away from the 

water. This is the kind of innovation and care 

that will help ensure coal mining remains a 

vibrant part of this local economy. Our desire at 

EPA is for the Commonwealth to move forward and 

issue permits that require these kinds of 

innovative approaches and that have appropriate 

pollutant limits to protect water quality. 

Let me briefly give you some additional 

background information that is important for you 

to understand as you make your oral or written 

comments. The permits that we are discussing are 

water discharge permits, known as National 

Pollutant Discharge Elimination System, or NPDES, 

permits. And these permits are required by the 

Clean Water Act. An NPDES permit is the basic 

tool for controlling water pollution, and it 

contains conditions and limitations to protect 

water quality and its many uses, such as fishing, 

swimming, canoeing, and as a source of drinking 

water. The Clean Water Act requires that NPDES 

permits include pollutant limits stringent enough 

to ensure that discharges do not cause violations 
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of the Commonwealth's own water quality standards. 

As part of the permitting process, Kentucky 

provides copies of draft NPDES permits to EPA for 

our review. 

Now, since August of 2009, based on 

information provided by the Kentucky Division of 

Water, the Division has issued individual NPDES 

permits for approximately 87 surface mining 

projects and 28 underground mines or coal 

preparation plants. Additionally, the Division 

has allowed approximately 2,500 new and existing 

coal mining projects to proceed under its general 

permit authority. Over the past two years, the 

EPA has objected to the issuance of a number of 

draft permits by the Division, 36 of which remain 

and are the subject of this hearing. 

While the majority of mining projects that 

need NPDES permits in Kentucky have received 

authorization to go forward, EPA remains concerned 

with mining discharges. In 2010, the Kentucky 

Division of Water estimated that at least 1,522 

miles of Kentucky's rivers and streams are 

threatened or impaired due to mining. Recent 

studies, as well as the experiences of coalfield 

communities, point to new environmental challenges 
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largely unknown even 10 years ago. Sediment, 

salts, and metals that runoff from poor mining 

practices can destroy the habitat that sustains 

fish and other forms of aquatic life in eastern 

Kentucky waterways. They threaten sources of 

drinking water and can affect the quality of life 

for the people of this region. Our objections to 

these 36 draft NPDES permits are based on the same 

fundamental concern, that permits must be strong 

enough to control pollution from these mines, 

pollution that can harm human health and aquatic 

life. 

This evening, we are here to listen to the 

concerns that you have about these permits. And, 

in particular, it is important that we receive any 

specific information you have with regard to these 

mines and the waters they discharge to. I know we 

are limited tonight in how many people can speak. 

I encourage everyone who is interested in 

contributing comments and unable to speak tonight 

to do so in writing, and that contact information 

is provided at the table in the back. 

The public comment period will close on 

June 21st. I want to emphasize at this point that 

no final decisions have been made. After 
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considering all of the comments, the data and 

information received on the permit objections, 

EPA's Regional Administrator in Atlanta will make 

a decision to reaffirm, modify, or withdraw each 

of the original objections. Once these decisions 

have been made, we will notify the Kentucky 

Division of Water, each of the permit applicants, 

and all of those who have registered and provided 

a mailing address. Our decisions will also be 

posted on EPA's website. 

If we withdraw any objections, the Kentucky 

Division of Water will be able to move forward and 

issue those permits. If we reaffirm or modify any 

objections, the Division of Water can send us 

revised draft permits within 30 days that address 

our concerns. And if for some reason we cannot 

reach agreement with the Division, then EPA will 

issue a permit for those particular mines. 

However, as I said earlier, I am hopeful that we 

will be successful in reaching agreement on the 

permits with the Kentucky Cabinet. 

This is our opportunity to hear directly from 

you, and I want to thank you again for being here 

and for participating in this process. At this 

time, I will turn it back to Charlie, who will 
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moderate the remainder of the hearing. Thank you. 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you, Jim. In terms of 

how we're going to operate with the speakers, I'm 

going to be calling the numbers out in blocks of 

20. And when I call your block and it has your 

number, I'm going to ask you to go to the back of 

the room, the back right, where two of our staff, 

who are standing there now with numbers, and they 

will give you a briefing on the speaking process, 

and then they'll send you back at the appropriate 

time. So at this time, I would like numbers 1 

through 20 to go to the back right of the 

auditorium. Could you guys hold up your numbers? 

There we go. Thank you. 

So at this time, I would like to introduce 

Secretary Peters of the Kentucky Energy and 

Environment Cabinet and Commissioner Bruce Scott 

of the Kentucky Department for Environmental 

Protection to make some opening remarks. 

SECRETARY PETERS: Thank you, Charlie. Good 

evening. I am Len Peters, Secretary of Kentucky's 

Energy and Environment Cabinet. And on behalf of 

Governor Steve Beshear, I want to thank Region 4 

for conducting this hearing to receive comments on 

their objections to Clean Water Act permits for 
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surface mining operations in eastern Kentucky. 

Today's hearing is unprecedented in Kentucky. 

Also unprecedented is the State feeling compelled 

by matters of principle to sue the U.S. EPA, which 

we did in 2010, because of what we deemed to be 

arbitrary and inconsistent application of policies 

governing mining operations. My comments today 

regarding EPA's objections to these permits, 

therefore, are consistent with the concerns we 

have expressed for more than two years now 

regarding this issue. 

As someone responsible for overseeing the 

State's environmental protection programs, I 

support and am, in fact, obligated to enforce 

regulations necessary to protect our land, air, 

and water resources. We can and must do all that 

is reasonably possible to protect our environment 

and the lives and health of our citizens. We have 

federal and state laws and regulations that not 

only guide this process but that bind us so that 

our decisions are not arbitrary, political, or 

otherwise without basis. Environmental permitting 

is not designed to stop legitimate business 

activities, whether we are talking about a mining 

activity, a manufacturing facility, or a water 
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treatment plant. Rather, permitting is to ensure 

these activities are done in accordance with 

existing laws and regulations. Regulators and a 

regulated community need certainty in the process. 

In addition, regulators and a regulated community 

need to be assured the decisions are made fairly 

and reasonably, based on accepted scientific 

studies and analysis. 

The Energy and Environment Cabinet and the 

U.S. EPA have an important partnership, and we 

share the same mission, to protect human health 

and the environment and to ensure environmental 

protection laws and regulations are implemented 

and enforced fairly and reasonably. Kentucky 

cannot simply reject surface mining permit 

applications that are in accordance with existing 

laws and regulations. Despite the rhetoric from 

some, surface mining, including mountaintop 

removal mining, is a legal form of mining that 

occurs on privately-owned land. We follow the 

federal Surface Mining Control and Reclamation 

Act, the Clean Water Act, and other federal 

provisions in operating the Kentucky program. 

Coal can be and is being mined in an 

environmentally responsible manner. We continue 
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to make improvements, and the industry has been 

willing to do things better. For example, the 

Beshear Administration initiated a novel approach 

to ensuring enhanced environmental protection of 

surface mining operations through a fill 

minimization protocol, a protocol that should have 

been embraced by the EPA but was not. 

All sources of energy production use, even 

renewables, have an environmental impact. But 

existing laws and regulations are in place to 

minimize impacts and to reclaim mined land. That 

is what is disconcerting to us, that EPA has 

applied a specific benchmark, that is 

conductivity, to Appalachian coal mining, a 

de facto standard has been based on what should be 

very narrowly interpreted incomplete science, not 

one that should be a surrogate measure of overall 

water quality. 

I read an opinion piece in the paper this 

week that even misrepresents the facts by saying 

that conductivity is a measure of contamination. 

The EPA knows and I know that this is not true, 

and yet many people do not know otherwise. 

Governor Beshear and I recognize and respect that 

EPA has a responsibility and obligation to revise 
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and update regulations and program requirements as 

necessary to protect human health and the 

environment. However, EPA should not create new 

regulatory requirements that have not undergone 

the appropriate Congressional or rulemaking 

processes. 

As it is, EPA is preventing through its 

objection process Kentucky, a delegated state, 

from issuing permits with no recourse for us or 

for the regulated community or for the thousands 

of Kentuckians who depend on mining for their 

livelihoods. We should not allow a few studies, 

studies that have credible counterpoints, to 

determine the economic destiny of one region of 

the country. We have allowed rhetoric and 

misinformation to overwhelm what should be a 

legitimate discussion of very important issues, 

jobs, human health, the environment, and the 

rational application of administrative oversight. 

I will close by saying that I appreciate the 

efforts of the staff within Region 4. They worked 

closely with our Cabinet to arrive at a solution 

to move these permits forward. We were assured by 

headquarters that if we were to reach agreement, 

which we did, that EPA would honor that agreement. 
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Unfortunately, that ultimately was simply not the 

case, and many months later we are still all 

experiencing the consequences of headquarters' 

actions. 

Thank you for the opportunity to offer some 

opening remarks. 

(Applause)

COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Good evening. My name 

is Bruce Scott. I'm the Commissioner of the 

Kentucky Department for Environmental Protection. 

I want to thank you for the opportunity to provide 

comments today regarding EPA's pending objections 

to 36 draft KPDES permits for discharges 

associated with coal mining operations in eastern 

Kentucky. 

The Commonwealth of Kentucky has been 

delegated authority by U.S. EPA to administer the 

NPDES program in Kentucky since 1983. Since 1983, 

there have been tens of thousands of NPDES permits 

proposed and issued by Kentucky for wastewater and 

storm water discharges across the Commonwealth, 

ranging from individual homes, to cities, to 

industries, and to coal mining operations. The 

Agency is aware of only one prior instance where 

an EPA permit objection of a Kentucky proposed 
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draft NPDES permit may have occurred. That was 

approximately 25 years ago for an industrial 

operation. No previously proposed NPDES permit 

for a coal mining operation has ever previously 

been objected to. However, since April of 2010, 

EPA has objected to approximately 40 proposed 

individual NPDES coal mining permits and has 

approved only one individual NPDES permit for a 

new or expanded surface mining operation in 

eastern Kentucky. Since receiving NPDES 

delegation in 1983, Kentucky has maintained 

conformance with federal EPA regulatory 

requirements. Simply stated, Kentucky's 

regulations and regulatory requirements are the 

same as the federal regulations and regulatory 

requirements. 

With regard to the 36 EPA permit objections 

subject to the public hearing here today, it is 

noteworthy to point out that EPA has not made any 

changes to the federal NPDES regulations that are 

subject to these permits of this hearing today 

since April of 2010. In addition, there have been 

no changes to the applicable water quality 

standards at the state or federal level that apply 

to Kentucky waters that are at issue in these 
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permit objections since 2010, of April. The 

question, therefore, must be asked: What changed? 

What state or federal regulations have changed 

that has resulted in these EPA objections since 

April of 2010? 

While that question remains pending, Kentucky 

has continued to work extensively with the EPA to 

address EPA's evolving comments and concerns that 

have been expressed over the past two plus years. 

Kentucky has provided numerous proposed draft 

permits, both formally and informally, consistent 

with existing state and federal regulations in an 

effort to resolve these objections. We have 

remained committed and hopeful that a resolution 

of these objections can and will be achieved. 

With specific respect to the EPA permit 

objections subject to this public hearing this 

evening, the EPA's stated concerns primarily fall 

into two categories. First, with respect to how 

the reasonable potential analysis, or RPA, was 

performed to determine whether the proposed 

discharges have a reasonable potential to cause or 

contribute to a violation of Kentucky's water 

quality standards. And, secondly, the 

establishment of permit requirements in accordance 
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with the determination of that reasonable 

potential analysis. 

With respect to the first issue, Kentucky 

followed existing EPA-approved RPA procedures, 

regulations, and application requirements 

consistent with 40 CFR 122.44 and 40 CFR 122.21. 

Specifically, Kentucky evaluated available 

discharge data and/or requested discharge data 

where it was unavailable for new discharges, as 

per existing regulatory requirements and 

permitting procedures. 

With respect to the second issue, Kentucky 

imposed a combination of chemical specific 

limitations and monitoring requirements, whole 

effluent toxicity limitations and monitoring 

requirements, best management practice 

requirements, and instream biological assessment 

requirements and limitations. In addition to 

addressing the individual parameter RPA 

requirements, the narrative water quality standard 

for conductivity and total dissolved solids is met 

via the combination of all these identified permit 

requirements, consistent with 40 CFR 122.44. In 

addition, the instream biological assessment 

requirements are designed to address the site 
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specific nature of the receiving stream, as 

specified in the narrative water quality standards 

cited in 401 KAR 10.031, Section 4(1)(f). 

In light of these facts, we respectfully 

request that EPA withdraw its permit objections. 

We look forward to continuing to work with EPA in 

our ongoing effort to bring resolution to these 

issues in a timely manner. Thank you again for 

the opportunity to provide these brief comments, 

and we will be providing additional written 

comments on these EPA permit objections before the 

close of the comment period. Thank you.

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Thank you. Now it is 

time for our public comment period. And we have 

our first speakers coming up. The way it is going 

to work, and we have some seasoned speakers that 

they can lead us through this, each speaker will 

have two minutes. I will ask you to first say 

your speaker number, then your name, spell your 

name, please, so we can get it correct in the 

transcript, your organization that you are 

representing, if any. And if you are referencing 

any specific permits, please state that as well. 

Then we will start the timer, which is up there 
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now. And you will see you have got two minutes. 

At the end of the two minutes, I do ask that you 

conclude your comments. If you haven't finished, 

we ask that you submit the remainder in writing, 

as many people have brought statements with them. 

The microphones will slowly go softer, so it won't 

be your imagination. And then we will turn to the 

next speaker. 

So with that, I would like to open it up and 

start with speaker number 1. 

SPEAKER NO. 1: Thank you. I am speaker 

number 1. And I am Donna McClure, "M," as in 

"mining," c-C-l-u-r-e. And, unfortunately, 

Congress is in session this week and Senator 

McConnell could not be here. So I am reading a 

statement from the United States Senate Republican 

Leader, Mitch McConnell. 

"Like most of the country, Kentucky is 

suffering from very difficult economic times. Far 

too many Kentuckians are unemployed and the 

prospect for future employment remains daunting. 

It is especially irritating this Administration 

has blindly followed policies eliminating jobs in 

our communities. The people of Kentucky are 

amongst the hardest working people on earth. But 
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how can we be expected to compete if our own 

government is working against us. Simply put, my 

constituents are under siege from the Obama 

Administration's regulatory agenda, and EPA is the 

worst offender. 

These 36 objections are further proof of this 

siege. Perhaps the clearest example of this 

Administration's regulatory assault is its war on 

coal. Since being sworn in, President Obama's EPA 

has set out to circumvent the will of Congress and 

the American people by turning the already 

cumbersome mine permitting process into a backdoor 

means of shutting down coal mines. 18,000 

Kentuckians work in coal mining. And nearly 

200,000 more, including farmers, realtors, and 

transportation workers, rely on the coal industry. 

Attacking an industry so important to Kentucky 

will only succeed in putting people out of work, 

impeding future job growth, and increasing energy 

prices. 

A former senior EPA official under the Obama 

Administration recently summed up the regulatory 

philosophy of the Agency with respect to those 

working in the coal business with saying it wants 

to crucify them. With this radical environmental 
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anti-coal agenda, it is no wonder the 

Administration has failed to answer the American 

people's call for greater domestic energy 

production. The real world impact of their 

fantasy world energy policy is people are losing 

their jobs and energy prices continue to increase. 

It is high time the Obama Administration stop 

treating the Kentucky coal industry as being part 

of the problem. Kentucky coal is the solution."

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. Next 

speaker, please. 

PUBLIC SPEAKER: I'm back. My name is James 

Milliman, M-i-l-l-i-m-a-n, State Director for 

Senator Rand Paul. And Senator Paul cannot be 

here tonight. Because I'll tell you what he is 

doing, Ladies and Gentlemen, he is up in 

Washington, DC as we speak fighting the EPA. And 

he will continue. (Applause). He will continue 

to fight the EPA until we achieve victory and keep 

your jobs. 

But the Senator has filed a list of questions 

that he would respectfully request a written 

response for. And we have filed them in the box, 

so. But there is another question he wanted to 
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ask, but I can't ask it now because something else 

came up. Today's June the 7th, and I just got a 

White House blog from the White House. And here 

is what it says, Ladies and Gentlemen, a White 

House blog on the -- here it is, the White House. 

Do you know what it says? What it is about? 

Protecting jobs in the American wind industry. 

The wind industry. And it goes on to talk about 

what a great priority protecting jobs in the 

American wind industry is. Not a word is 

mentioned about coal. Not a word. And my 

question to the EPA is: Why are you more 

concerned about protecting jobs in a wind industry 

with companies like Solyndra that rapes the 

country, rapes the country of billions of dollars 

for Obama donors, and you neglect and spit in the 

face of these hard-working miners who for 250 

years have provided energy to this country. Why? 

Why do you choose wind over coal? Thank you. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 3: I'm Danielle Smoot, speaker 

number 3, with Congressman Hal Rogers' office. 

Also here with me tonight is our new District 

Director, Chris Girdler. He is also the 5th 

District State Senator Elect. 
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Congressman Rogers would love to be with us 

here tonight. But he is also in Washington, 

continuing to fight this same fight on Capitol 

Hill. Congressman Rogers has grave concern about 

the Environmental Protection Agency's 

strangulating regulations on Appalachian coal. In 

fact, earlier this year he told EPA Administrator 

Lisa Jackson that the Agency's behavior is 

contemptible. 

Time and again, the EPA has tried to bypass 

the Congress and weaken state authority. And they 

make no secret of this Administration's intentions 

to shutdown Kentucky coal. The permit process is 

now so complex that our coal operators are jumping 

through regulatory hoops trying to understand the 

constant shift in standards and rules that don't 

apply to everyone. What we do know, what has been 

made very clear, is that only one 404 individual 

permit has been approved for a new surface mining 

operation in Kentucky in three and a half years. 

And, folks, that is downright shameful. 

Congressman Rogers has made it clear that 

just because you are pro coal does not mean you 

are against the environment. He is the co-founder 

of the eastern Kentucky PRIDE organization that 
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has invested environmental education in every 

school district in southern and eastern Kentucky, 

inspired upwards of 33,000 volunteers to cleanup 

our hillsides every April and remove nearly 30,000 

straight pipes from dumping raw sewage into our 

streams. In fact, some of PRIDE's most proud 

sponsors and volunteers are coal operators and the 

coal mining families that are with us here 

tonight. Whether you have taken note or not, the 

coal operators have made great strides in reducing 

their environmental footprint. The EPA does have 

a duty to protect the environment. No one here 

tonight wants to eliminate environmental laws. 

But we do expect them to be applied fairly and 

consistently so our coal mining families can build 

a business, start a family, or buy a home without 

the fear of another pink slip because another 

permit is on hold. 

Congressman Rogers asks the EPA to overturn 

its objections to these permits, set aside its 

political agendas, and allow coal miners in 

Kentucky to provide for their families. Thank you 

very much. 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you very much. Thank 

you. 
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(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Before the next speaker, let 

me just check if anyone has come in that needs the 

sign language interpretation services. If you 

could raise your hand and stand up. Okay, I 

didn't see anyone, so I think you can sit down. 

Thank you very much. 

Okay. Thank you. Speaker number and then 

name. 

SPEAKER NO. 4: Thank you. I'm speaker 

number 4. My name is Greg Stumbo. I currently 

serve as State Representative for the 95th 

District, which is basically Floyd County, down 

just a few miles south of here. And I'm currently 

the Speaker of the House in Kentucky. I also had 

the occasion to write the state's primacy law in 

1980 in my first session in the General Assembly. 

And I live on a reclaimed surface mine. And I 

probably as a private attorney collected on behalf 

of injured miners and their families more benefits 

than anybody in this whole state. For 30 years, 

that is who I represented. 

So let me tell you my objection to what you 

are doing here. When we enacted our primacy law, 

it was because Congress wanted a national standard 
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for states that engaged in mining practices. And 

for 30 years, that has worked. But now what you 

want to do, it seems to me, is change the standard 

just because you don't like a particular form of 

mining. That is not your prerogative; that is the 

prerogative for the Congress of the United States. 

The federal Surface Mining Act was passed in 

1977, the Clean Water Act in 1972. And the 

legislative act that passes last takes precedent. 

So what you have to look for is what was the 

intent of Congress. We live in a democracy, not a 

dictatorship. If you want to change the law, go 

lobby Congress. If they change it, we'll obey it. 

If the Kentucky legislature changes it, we'll obey 

it. My problem is, that what you are doing is 

striking down the intent of Congress to have a 

uniform law for all the states just to penalize 

us. 

If you don't believe that mountaintop mining 

has a positive effect, come see where I live. 

There is a championship 18-hole public golf 

course, little league ball field, soccer fields, a 

riding stable, a residential community. We need 

this land to lift ourselves up out of poverty. 

(Applause). Because, unless you have noticed, our 
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topography won't let us develop in the valleys 

because they are prone to flooding. If we are 

ever going to get out of the cycle of poverty, we 

have to utilize the tops of our mountains so that 

the next generation of eastern Kentuckians look 

down at the mountains and not up at them. Don't 

take this tool from us. Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. The next 

speaker. 

SPEAKER NO. 5: I'm speaker number 5. I'm 

State Representative Rocky Adkins. I represent 

part of eastern Kentucky. I have just finished my 

25th year in the Kentucky House of 

Representatives. I represent Elliott, Lawrence, 

Boyd, and Rowan County. I also serve as the 

majority leader in the Kentucky House of 

Representatives. 

I would like to start my comments, if justice 

is defined as equal treatment under the law, then 

what the EPA is doing with coal mining in our 

region is the most shocking example of injustice I 

have seen in this country in many years. I'm glad 

you are here to get a direct look of the impact of 

your rules and regulations. Thousands of jobs 
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have been lost directly and indirectly in the coal 

industry and in the mining industry. Businesses 

have been hurt and shutdown. These are real 

people, not a statistic, people with families 

trying to put food on the table, put a roof over 

their heads, send their kids to school. 

(Applause). Your rules and regulations with 404 

permits, over 200 of them have laid with no 

decisions, they have hurt our coal industry and 

hurt our people. Your rules and regulations on 

402 permits is hurting our industry and putting 

our people out of work, destroying our economy. 

Federal regulations that only impact six 

states in central Appalachia and not the rest of 

the country, you have targeted and attacked the 

coal industry of our region, and I believe your 

game plan is to put this industry out of business, 

send our people home without a job, and destroy 

our economy. I hope this is not true, but the 

evidence from your actions would find you guilty 

of every charge in every court throughout this 

country. (Applause). 

Kentucky is a primacy state, given the 

authority over the last 30 years to review and 

make decisions on granting mining permits. Our 
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professionals in Kentucky are professionals, 

qualified, who have done a great job with the 

responsibilities in this area. The Kentucky 

Department of EPA, led by Secretary Len Peters and 

Commissioner Bruce Scott, two highly respected and 

highly dedicated people, have known they are known 

nationally for their expertise. This is why 

Kentucky filed suit against the federal EPA and 

rightly so. You said that after 30 years of 

primacy, after 30 years of providing the 

experience in Kentucky, and then all of a sudden 

we want to change the game. I'm here to tell you, 

you do your job and let our people do theirs and 

let them go back to work. 

(Audience members stand. Applause.)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Thank you. Thank 

you. Next speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 6: I'm speaker number 6. I'm 

Fitz, F-i-t-z, Steele. I'm State Representative 

of the 84th District, and I proudly represent the 

number two and three largest coal-producing 

counties of this Commonwealth. I would like to 

thank everyone tonight for coming to support 

Kentucky's coal miners and my signature industry, 

the coal industry.
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As you know, Jim, I'm glad you have bottled 

water tonight, your water you are drinking, if you 

are drinking it, you are breaking the law. It is 

against -- it is higher than the conductivity 

level of what you have set on coal mining. 

(Applause). I have fed my family for 20 some 

years being a coal miner. I'll be -- I'm a coal 

miner now, I'm a State Representative now, and a 

self-businessman. And I'll be a coal miner until 

the day I die. 

We will not stop mining coal. We can't stop 

mining coal. If this state stops mining coal, it 

will take 24 percent of this nation's renewables 

just to fuel what supply Kentucky needs to power 

this Commonwealth. No way. No wind, no power. 

No sun, no power. Coal will burn. We've got it. 

(Applause). My people is not afraid of al-Qaeda. 

They are not afraid of the air and the water they 

drink. They're afraid of the Obama 

Administration. They have targeted us for over 

four years. And enough is enough. We won't 

change. We're going to have change. We're going 

to have change in November. I ask you, since 

April 2010 not one, not one eastern Kentucky 

permit has been issued. My brothers in the west 
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of Kentucky, their permits fly through your-all's 

office. We don't get one. The same engineering, 

the same equipment, the same everything. 

Why are you discriminating against West 

Virginia and Kentucky? Why? I ask you to look at 

it, go back, release our permits. Let my people 

go back to work. We don't want a handout. We're 

not like other groups. We don't want a handout. 

(Applause). We want to work and earn a living, a 

good living, a fair living. (Applause). 

And, also, I would like to invite you, as 

being Vice Chair, I know my Chairman has invited 

the EPA to hearings in Frankfort, you are welcome 

anytime. And like you had done last year for your 

private tours in eastern Kentucky, come let us 

take you on a tour. 

(Applause) 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. The next 

speaker, please.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Thank you. My name is Ray 

Jones. I'm the State Senator for the 31st 

District, Pike, Martin, and Johnson County. And 

it is my privilege to represent the largest 

coal-producing district of the 38 members of the 

Kentucky Senate. 
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First of all, let me say that I am somewhat 

glad that we're having the opportunity to address 

the EPA. It has only taken 18 months since the 

first request was put in for a public meeting. 

You know, those of us who had the opportunity to 

go to law school, there is something you learned 

in the first year of law school, it is called due 

process. And let me tell you something, the 

process that the EPA went through in adopting the 

conductivity standards violates the due process 

rights of every man, woman, and child in Kentucky 

and West Virginia. 

Let me ask you, it is a basic fundamental 

question: Why doesn't this same guidance apply to 

Virginia? We have a tributary that runs into the 

Fishtrap reservoir from Virginia. It doesn't 

apply to Ohio or Pennsylvania. Why is that? But 

yet we find ourselves in a position where we have 

thousands of people out of work in eastern 

Kentucky, in large part because of the actions of 

the federal government. 

These folks would like to be home with their 

families tonight. A lot of these men and women 

worked today. But yet they have to come here to 

defend themselves against the United States 
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government and its bureaucracy. There is 

something fundamentally wrong with that. 

Now, let me tell you how much sense that this 

regulation makes. The largest polluter of our 

tributaries and streams throughout this country is 

agriculture, herbicides, pesticides, fertilizer. 

It is up in our streams and creeks through erosion 

and runoff. What is next? Will the EPA stop our 

farmers from growing food because of that? It is 

no different, Ladies and Gentlemen. (Applause). 

And it is fundamentally wrong. 

This Administration and the EPA is out of 

touch with the needs of the people of this state. 

And it jeopardizes an economy of an entire region. 

And one last thing. There is a federal prison on 

a reclaimed strip mine in Martin County. Now, 

that is how much sense that your policies make. 

(Applause) 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Next speaker, 

please. 

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Thank you. Yes. I'm State 

Representative Leslie Combs. And along with 

Senator Jones, we represent the largest 

coal-producing county in this state. Now, I often 

argue with Representative Steele, we argue over 
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who represents the second and third, but I say I 

represent the number one, the number two, and the 

number three largest coal-producing counties. So 

you can imagine how I feel about this. You can 

imagine the industry and the people that I 

represent. 

But first and foremost, folks, I want to 

welcome you. I want to welcome you right here to 

our -- I mean, you are right here. You are 

sitting in our home precinct. And we want to 

welcome you, because we are finally glad to have 

you here. Now, I am going to tell you one of the 

reasons why I am glad you are here. I get phone 

calls every single day from my constituents who 

tell me, "I'm losing my job. I'm losing my home. 

I can't afford to feed my family." I'm running 

out of things to tell these people. You all are 

here. Give me some answers. What do I tell these 

folks? (Applause). What do I tell them? 

Because I am going to tell you something 

about these wonderful people, they are great. All 

they want to do is they want to go to work. But 

let me tell you something they are being told. 

They are being told that what they do is wrong. 

They are being told that what they do is bad. 
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Well, I am going to tell you something about me, 

and they are just like me. I don't believe, I 

don't believe in doing things wrong. I do not 

believe in being unethical, illegal, or doing 

things wrong. And I'm going to tell you what, 

these people know how to do it, they know how to 

do it right, and I'll be the first one in line to 

make them stay in line and do it right. 

(Applause). By golly, give them -- don't take it 

away. Talk about these 36 permits. I'm here 

tonight on all 36. Because, I'll tell you, about 

10 or 12 of them are right here in Pike County. 

Ladies and Gentlemen, I can take you right 

now, just like Speaker Stumbo referred to, just 

like Representative Steele referred to, I can take 

you to some property right now that is absolutely 

unbelievable and it would knock your socks off. 

It has got clean water. It is grazing cattle 

right now. It is acting like farmland, and it is 

acres and acres of property that are absolutely 

beautiful. Thank you. 

(Applause) 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Before the next 

speaker, if I could ask the next block of 

speakers, 21 to 30, to go in the back of the room, 
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please, to get ready for speaking, to get your 

briefing. Speakers 21 to 30. Thank you. Sorry. 

SPEAKER NO. 9: I am speaker number 9. I'm 

State Representative Hubert Collins, 

Representative of Johnson, Martin, part of Pike, 

and part of Floyd. I've been the House 

Transportation Chair for 17 years, also the 

ranking member on natural resources and education. 

The influence of coal in these counties is of 

great importance. Jobs from coal is allowing men 

and women to support their families, put bread on 

the table, clothes on their backs, and educate 

their kids, and also to try to live a more 

comfortable life. But this is in danger. 

The EPA regulation not only affects the coal 

industry, but it affects farming, development, and 

road construction. We have come to realize there 

is a war on coal. I, along with all of our miners 

and all of our coal people, will fight this war as 

long as it lasts. The economy is already bad. 

But the continued old and new regulations makes it 

devastating. With the rejection of the 36 

permits, of which six of them are in one of the 

counties that I represent, it will mean that the 

families may have to go without food by losing 
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their job. But the continued regulations, the old 

and the new, makes it more devastating and makes 

it more sure that the people may have to lose 

their ability to get food. 

Can you, the EPA, with this dishonorable 

decision accept this action? Every man, woman, 

and child has the right to life, liberty, and 

pursuit of happiness. These irresponsible 

decisions will take this liberty away. We will 

not stand for these actions. It is unbelievable, 

and I would like to know the answer. Why is it 

that the water running from a mine site is more 

restricted than the bottled water and the tap 

water that we drink? This is wrong. This is 

wrong. Thank you all. May God bless.

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 10: I'm speaker number 10. My 

name is John Short. I'm State Representative of 

the 92nd District in the heart of coal country in 

eastern Kentucky. 

I know that you have heard a lot about 

needing to study. Look at the permits and start 

releasing them. I'm going to tell you what is 

going to happen in eastern Kentucky if you don't 

release them. Our schools have already a low 
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attendance, but their population has been going 

down over the last ten years. This means that 

we'll have -- not have the money in our school 

system to give our children the education that 

they deserve. And if no permits are issued, our 

population will go down even more. We have 

already started bussing our young children for 

longer periods of time, which they do not deserve, 

because of consolidation of schools. 

Every business in eastern Kentucky revolves 

around coal. I have never worked in the mines, 

but I started making a living from coal as soon as 

I graduated from college. Our hospitals, 

Wal-Marts, restaurants, I could go on and on about 

all of the businesses that are built on 

mountaintop development sites. We have thousands 

of fine homes built on these sites. 

I have a cousin, Tim Short. He gave 

$1.6 million for four acres of mountaintop 

development to put a car dealership on. I have 

several horses of my own and love going to central 

Kentucky looking at the horse farms. But several 

of these historic farms have been turned into 

housing developments and shopping malls. To me, 

these farms are a lot more valuable and beautiful 
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than mountains that are economically worth nothing 

except for the coal that lies beneath them. I 

don't come to Lexington with my coal mining 

buddies and look like a bunch of idiots saying, 

"Save the horse farms." No. I see this as 

development of jobs so people can provide for 

their families. 

I own about 250 acres where I live, and it 

has never been mined. But I wish I could talk 

somebody into mining it. We also use mountaintop 

development for grazing cattle and horses. And we 

have the largest elk herd east of the Mississippi 

that forages on these development sites. What 

would happen if a group of legislators got 

together here in Kentucky and passed a bill into 

law that would require every stream in the state 

of Kentucky to have to pass the same regulations 

that you want us to abide by? I seriously doubt 

that there would be a stream in Kentucky that 

could pass it. What would the EPA do then if they 

had to enforce the law like they are enforcing it 

on us? It is also -- well ...

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. 

SPEAKER NO. 10: Thank you. 

(Applause)
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MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you very 

much. Thank you. And if you do run out of time, 

please submit those written comments up at the 

registration table so we can make it part of the 

record. Thank you. Next speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 13: I'm speaker number 13. I'm 

Dr. Charles Hardin, Magoffin County Judge 

Executive and a family physician in Salyersville, 

Kentucky. 

I would like for you to consider three things 

when making this decision. Number one, poverty 

breeds pollution. We already have enough problems 

in eastern Kentucky (Applause) with providing for 

pollution control things, such as clean water, 

proper sewer. If you remove some of these jobs, I 

as a county judge will not be able to deal with 

some of the household waste and other pollution 

things. Number two, when you raise the price of 

electricity from somewhere from 11 to 25 percent, 

there are going to be a lot of elderly people who 

sure can't afford their medications then. I know 

this is about health. But if you can't afford 

your medications, you don't have much health 

either. Please consider that. (Applause). The 

third thing is, that I think that when I have 
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talked to most coal miners, they understand that 

this is a future that is shrinking and 

diminishing. But we need time. This does not 

need to be done abruptly. We need to sit down 

with the business leaders in the coal industry, 

with the coal miners, with the EPA, with the 

environmentalists, and let's get a program that 

doesn't do this abruptly. Give us time so that 

wind can be developed in Pike County. If you do 

this quickly, if you shutdown the coal industry 

quickly, when the energy prices go up, you will 

have a backlash. And I will guarantee you, in 5 

to 10 years you won't be able to control coal 

mining, you won't be able to control pollution, 

and we won't be in no mood to compromise. Thank 

you. 

(Applause) 

MS. MacPHERSON: And I do want to say, I 

really appreciate everyone adhering to the two 

minutes to respect all of the speakers. Thank you 

for that. Next speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 12: Judge Rupert, number 12, 

County Judge Executive of Pike County, the largest 

coal-producing county in Central Appalachia. 

I am wondering why no Washington-based EPA is 
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here. I have got an idea of why they are not 

here, why they sent you all out of Atlanta. You 

know the video that they call an official in EPA 

in Washington, what did they say? What did the 

video say? "We're going to crucify the fossil 

fuel industry." That's coal. (Applause). And 

you started doing a doggone good job. 

But I want to tell you all something. We're 

going to have a crisis in this country that you 

all are causing, you bureaucrats out of Atlanta 

and those in Washington are causing, that is going 

to be a crisis unheard of in America. This is a 

shame. You talk about water, water, water. And 

you all have put in place the most stringent regs 

that you could put in place that can't be met by 

this coal industry. Don't you realize that on the 

conductivity of water, that what you are requiring 

is beyond most of the public water systems in 

America? Look at your numbers. Look at them. 

There is no way. You put in regulations to stop 

the coal mining in central Appalachia. 

Not only that, you are going to ruin this 

country. We've got a severe problem of security 

in this country, of importing this oil. You don't 

realize that 42 cents out of every dollar in 
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Washington is spent, spent for imported oil. An 

opportunity. This Administration in Washington 

cut the money off for research, cut the money off 

for clean coal technology so that you can strangle 

the coal industry of this country. We are not 

going to stand of it. We are going to fight you 

until the end. These coal miners are the heros; 

they are not the villain. And thank God for coal. 

And God Bless America. 

(Applause) 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Next speaker, 

please. 

SPEAKER NO. 15: I am speaker number 15. I'm 

the Martin County Judge Executive, Kelly Callaham. 

That is spelled C-a-l-l-a-h-a-m, as in "Mary." 

I want to talk to you about fairness. In 

2009, you guys renewed the 402 permits for 

Kentucky. And then in April of 2010, EPA accepted 

the changes that the State applied to the 402 

permits and the State was able to issue 27 

permits. Why are those standards no longer 

acceptable? 

In 2011, the EPA sent letters out to 55 

permits. This was the same letter, 36 of them was 

deemed as objection letters and 19 of them as 
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comment letters. How can it be the same? It was 

the exact same letter. 

On July the 21st of 2011, EPA implementation 

of the final guidance to eastern Kentucky and 

West Virginia. Other states in the same 

ecosystem, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Virginia, and 

Tennessee, had no such limitations. How is our 

water different? 

You know, when I first come in here, I met a 

good friend of mine that, that when he was growing 

up, he lived by the Tug Fork, and as many of you 

all in this room know, the Tug Fork is -- 

separates Kentucky and West Virginia. And I was 

proceeding to tell him that a friend of mine had 

caught a whole bunch of smallmouth bass in -- in a 

place. And I said, "Where did you catch those?" 

And he said, "You are not going to believe this, 

but I caught them in the Tug River." Now, you are 

talking about a river back when my friend was 

swimming in it 30 years ago you would be black 

when you would come out. So, you know, you all 

have done a great job, but it is time to get off 

our back. I mean, our streams are good. And -- 

and I don't understand the fairness. 

When your-all's director, Lisa Jackson, has 
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to slip into Kentucky and have meetings in 

secretive places with a bunch of tree-huggers, a 

people that wouldn't work in a pie factory tasting 

them (Applause), she -- she is not hearing -- she 

is not hearing both sides of the story. So I just 

want to ask you guys, the EPA and the President, 

to get off our back and let our coal miners work. 

Thank you.

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. 

Next.

SPEAKER NO. 14: Thank you. Thank you for 

coming. I'm speaker number 14. My name is Randy 

Thompson. That's T-h-o-m-p-s-o-n. I'm the County 

Judge Executive of Knott County. 

I just want to say, our local governments 

depend greatly on the tax revenue from coal and we 

simply cannot afford to provide the services our 

people expect and deserve without this revenue. 

Plus, our entire eastern Kentucky economic base is 

totally dependent on the jobs provided by the coal 

industry. 

Now, I thought I heard one of the speakers 

from one of the environmental groups earlier today 

say, "These hearings weren't supposed to be about 
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jobs." And I thought to myself, to hell they 

ain't. You tell several hundred eastern Kentucky 

(Applause) coal miners they are going to lose 

their jobs because of something you created called 

conductivity, you damn well better be prepared to 

hear from them. These laid off workers are now 

trying to buy their groceries, gasoline, pay their 

medical expenses, mortgages, car payments and more 

with unemployment benefits that don't come close 

to allowing them to make their ends meet. 

And from some of the comments I heard Tuesday 

in Frankfort, I got the impression some of you are 

more concerned with aquatic life than you are 

human life. (Applause). You say denying these 

permits is based on science. Well, even if it is 

science, shouldn't that science be seasoned with 

just a little bit of common sense? I mean, based 

on your reasoning I need to start arresting kids 

that are peeing in my public pool. 

Because of declining coal tax revenue since 

2010, I've had to layoff nearly half of my county 

government's workforce. You say permits are being 

denied because the mining will pollute some 

streams. I am not convinced that is the real 

reason. Otherwise, you would be assisting us in 
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getting rid of the real pollution problem, of 

failing septic tanks, straight pipes dumping raw 

sewage into the streams. I don't know about you, 

but I would 10 to 1 rather take a drink of water 

from a running mine site than downstream of 100 

straight pipes. (Applause). 

If you are truly serious about preventing 

pollution, issue these permits and encourage more 

mining. Allow our local governments to use the 

stream mitigation funds to pay for construction of 

wastewater treatment plants along the streams. If 

you are concerned about safe drinking water, issue 

permits, encourage more mining so the local 

governments can receive more tax revenue, build 

more and better water treatment facilities.

During the past seven years in Knott County, 

I have invested $25 million of coal severance tax 

revenue to provide water to Knott County families, 

water that is cleaner and safer than these 

families would have ever expected to receive had 

it not been for coal tax dollars. Put my people 

back to work. 

(Audience members stand. Applause.)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Thank you. Next 

speaker, please. 
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SPEAKER NO. 17: Harlan County Judge 

Executive, Joe Grieshop, G-r-i-e-s-h-o-p. I am 

speaker number 17. 

The war on poverty in Appalachia was declared 

in the 1960s with President John F. Kennedy and 

Lyndon Baines Johnson. Their heart went out to 

our people and also to the coal industry. Much 

thanks to our natural resource coal and the coal 

industry, because they are, and the companies have 

helped us make steady progress in upgrading our 

quality of life. Together, we have created coal 

jobs for our families. And we also were provided 

coal severance dollars for our projects. These 

projects would not have been funded but for the 

coal industry generating those tax dollars from 

the value of severed coal. 

Now we are faced with a new war, a war which 

will take away our opportunity for a better life. 

Subjective decision making has occurred. And 

because it has, it has created an economic crisis 

for Harlan County and other counties in this 

region. Why, I ask, does the EPA make decisions 

based on conductivity testing that is not logical? 

Coal companies have a good record of 

stewardship of their permitted land. They have 
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taken the extraction process seriously. But they 

cannot tolerate a moving set of rules. Our 

mountain streams and rivers are cleaner today than 

they have been in years past. Ask the thriving 

wildlife, ask the fish. If they could speak they 

would tell you they love where they live right 

now. 

Coal has been our economic engine for the 

region, and coal plays a major role in America's 

growth. And I ask you to give our families a 

break, come to the table, discuss the issues, and 

work through the process. Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Next speaker, please. 

PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is -- is it on? 

MS. MacPHERSON: It will come up. Keep -- 

keep talking. It will adjust. Go ahead. 

PUBLIC SPEAKER: (Indicating).

MS. MacPHERSON: Yes, it is on.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Yes. My name is R.D. "Doc" 

Marshall, M-a-r-s-h-a-l-l, Floyd County Judge 

Executive. 

I come here tonight with mixed feelings, 

feelings that go back a long way. We all come 

from communities that we know were founded, were 
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built, were promoted with coal. I happen to have 

one in my county that prospered and was noted 

across the United States of America in the 40s, 

50s, and 60s by the name of Wheelwright, Kentucky. 

It was a community that had everything, but they 

had it because of coal. Coal made it possible. 

Other communities followed. Twenty years ago, 

20 years ago, there were 153 mines actively mining 

coal in Floyd County, Kentucky. Today, I have 

five, five mines that are struggling big-time. 

And if the EPA has anything to do, those five will 

disappear before this year is over. 

We need answers. We need plenty of them. 

Why are we here? We're here simply because of 

three, the big three. Not what Washington 

considers the big three. But we're here for jobs, 

we're here for families, and we're here for 

communities. And, by golly, I will come back. I 

was here three years ago. If it takes three more 

years, I'll be here again and voice my support. 

I'll always stand up for our people in coal. I 

believe they are the backbone of this country. 

And when those lights grow dim, brother, they are 

going to find out right quick. (Applause). Let 

us stand together. We've got a great motto in the 
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Commonwealth of Kentucky, United We Stand. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Thank you. Next 

speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 21: I'm speaker 21, Andy Willis, 

A-n-d-y W-i-l-l-i-s. 

I'm going to begin by quoting from the United 

States Constitution. The Tenth Amendment states, 

"The power is not delegated to the United States 

by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the 

States, are reserved to the States respectively, 

or to the people." And William Douglas, the 

longest-serving U.S. Supreme Court Justice, said, 

"The Constitution is not neutral. It was designed 

to take the government off the backs of people." 

(Applause). 

Congress took it upon itself to establish the 

U.S. EPA to enforce the laws of the Clean Water 

Act and the Clean Air Act. The U.S. EPA has since 

overstepped its bounds by passing regulations 

which are not in the best interests of the states 

or their people. 

Now I want to quote from a great American, 

Thomas Jefferson. He said, "The policy of the 

American government is to leave their citizens 
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free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their 

pursuits." He also said, "We were directed from 

Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should 

soon want bread." He also said, "Most bad 

government has grown out of too much government." 

And, finally, "I predict future happiness for 

Americans if they can prevent the government from 

wasting the labors of the people under the 

pretense of taking care of them." 

Now, I know there are some people in this 

crowd who would probably love the idea of the 

government taking care of them. But as for me, I 

hereby request that the U.S. EPA stop trying to 

take care of me by outlawing the mining and use of 

coal. Thank you. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 22: I'm speaker 22, Eric Chance, 

C-h-a-n-c-e, with Appalachian Voices. Thank you 

for the opportunity to speak here today. 

I believe that the EPA should reaffirm their 

objections to these 36 inadequate permits. The 

State has failed to do an adequate reasonable 

potential analysis and has failed to include 

permit limits adequate to protect water quality. 

The EPA is not the one holding up these permits. 
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They are simply trying to bring up the quality of 

permits issued in Kentucky to the standard of 

other states like West Virginia. The party truly 

responsible for holding these permits up is the 

Kentucky Energy and Environment Cabinet, because 

they are not capable of writing a permit that 

would require companies to mine responsibly and do 

it without ruining water quality. The Cabinet is 

so starved for funding and beholden to the coal 

industry that they are incapable of regulating it. 

In addition to their inability to issue 

adequate permits, they have proven their inability 

to regulate coal by setting inadequate bond 

amounts, failing to list streams in the coal 

fields on the 303(d) list of impaired streams, 

allowing more mines to be covered under the 

general permit than there should be, failing to 

develop TMDLs for the streams actually listed as 

impaired, not reviewing discharge monitoring 

reports, failing to do enforcement actions on 

water quality problems they have identified, 

failing to ensure water quality and other data 

submitted by the companies is actually true, 

failing to even know the most basic information 

like the number and location of all the facilities 
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they are supposed to be regulating. 

Finally, the permits at issue here represent 

a small percent of the mining permits issued by 

the State, because more than 2,000 mines are 

covered under the general permit, which is not at 

issue. As active mines across the state are 

idled, approval of these permits would not create 

jobs because natural gas is cheaper than coal. 

(Audience members respond)

MS. MacPHERSON: I would ask everyone to 

please show the same courtesy to all the speakers 

that are speaking here tonight. Please. We are 

not going to start. Thank you. Next speaker, 

please.

SPEAKER NO. 23: My name is Pallavi Podapati, 

P-o-d-a-p-a-t-i, and I'm the 23rd speaker. I'm a 

concerned citizen from Hazard, Kentucky. 

I've lived in Hazard, Kentucky since I was 

three years old. I'm 21 now. And I don't want to 

call anywhere else home. Of course, I feel a 

natural desire to protect the place where my 

family and loved ones live. However, I find that 

laws and regulations meant to protect the health 

and safety of my community aren't being enforced 

or are under attack. And corporations with no 
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ethical ties or obligations to uphold the 

well-being of my community are given enough leeway 

to do anything to increase their profit margins. 

So I feel compelled to speak here and draw 

attention to the fact that these permits denied by 

the EPA are indicative of the regard. Or, to 

speak quite truthfully, the complete disregard of 

these companies towards my community, my family, 

and myself. It is unacceptable that Kentucky's 

DOW accepted permits that had insufficient data to 

establish reasonable potential analyses. I find 

it necessary to state that there is a reason these 

permits were denied. Current permits in Kentucky 

are inadequate and aren't even being enforced by 

the State. 

(Audience members respond)

MS. MacPHERSON: The next speaker, please. 

PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is Haven King, 

H-a-v-e-n K-i-n-g. I'm the County Clerk for Perry 

County, Hazard, Kentucky. I'm also the President 

of Coal Mining Our Future. 

Now, I've often wondered and thought about 

what the EPA executive in Texas, when he said 

that, you know, "the way that we got their 

attention is when we would come into a 
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Mediterranean town and Turkish people and the 

first five men we would come to we would crucify 

them." So the way -- I don't think you all would 

do that. But that's one way. He said, "That town 

was easy to handle after that." So what you all 

have done, you have took the thing with 

conductivity. One lady, named Madeline O'Hare, 

took prayer out of school in this country. One 

lady, named Lisa Jackson, is going to stop coal 

mining if we don't stop her. (Applause). Her 

name is Lisa Jackson, and she is totally against 

our people. 

And the EPA, you like your conductivity. 

Don't take my word for it. When you go back, when 

you all go back, the drinking water that you 

drink, go ahead and do the conductivity on it and 

see what it is. The EPA wants the permits that we 

do at 300. My drinking water in Hazard, Kentucky, 

at Chavies, where I live, is 725 coming out of the 

Hazard district. Now, I guess that's crucifixion. 

I mean, you are really trying to -- poverty you 

are going to see when our people can't -- have to 

choose between power, they have to choose between 

medicine and food. Now, you're going to see what 

poverty is when you see people go hungry and when 
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you see people losing their jobs. There's 

hundreds and hundreds. We've actually lost 1,500 

jobs in our two counties in the last three months. 

Those jobs, sixty to $65,000 per year. We're 

losing those, and it is because -- now, when 

people die because they can't provide for their 

family, they are going to get rowdy and they are 

going to get rough. But whenever they die, I want 

you to think about that when you make these 

decisions, because that is going to be on you 

whenever that happens. Thank you. 

(Applause) 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. Next. 

SPEAKER NO. 26: I'm speaker number 26. My 

name is Maxine Stanford. 

(Audience members respond)

MS. MacPHERSON: Please be courteous. Thank 

you. Go ahead again.

SPEAKER NO. 26: My name is Maxine Stanford. 

And I'm concerned about all the jobs that we have 

lost up in eastern Kentucky. Our coal miners have 

lost jobs. And when the coal goes down, it also 

affects their communities there, and they are 

starting to lose jobs. Businesses are going to 

start closing. And we have -- I'm a coal miner's 
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wife, and -- and I have brothers that work in the 

coal industry. And that's our livelihood. I 

mean, that's what we live on. That's what we make 

a living here today. We need our jobs and we want 

to do our jobs right. We want to have clean 

water. 

But if we can't -- we don't have clean water 

when the streams, the straight pipes go in. And 

we want to clean them up with coal severance 

money. But if we haven't got that coal severance 

money, we can't cleanup the streams. We can't 

stop the sewage going into the streams. We can't 

stop the runoffs of the agriculture, the 

fertilizer, the insecticides, the salt off your 

roads you treat your roads with. That raises 

conductivity. And what do we do on it? Do we 

leave the roads where we get killed every day? 

But if you check it when -- conductivity in 

your water when the salt is applied to the road, 

the runoff, your road -- of the road, the water, 

goes back to the streams, it affects your quality 

of water. But yet, I mean, you know, our city 

water, it's -- you know, it is better than what we 

-- you know, our city water is not as good as the 

water coming out of these mine waters. You want 
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it three to 500 to be acceptable, no more than 

five. And we -- we -- most mines can't do it that 

way. But we can drink our city water, and it is 

700 and something. We can drink our bottled 

water, you know, 500, 600, or 1,000, you know, but 

it is acceptable. 

So we need your help. We need help getting 

our jobs back. Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. 

Before the next speaker, I would like to send the 

next group of speakers, numbered 31 to 50, if you 

can go to the back of the room to the man holding 

up the number 2. Thank you. 

PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is Cordis "Cuzz" 

Bishop, C-o-r-d-i-s C-u-z-z B-i-s-h-o-p. 

People of Appalachia are treated like anuses. 

Normally I would say something else; okay? 

Perhaps we need to put some thought into acting 

the same way as the African-Americans did in the 

60s in order to get their civil rights. I am from 

that area and saw what they had to do to get their 

civil rights. Maybe that is what we need to do. 

Appalachian miners and their families are being 

discriminated because you are taking away our jobs 
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and our civil rights. Our U.S. Constitution says 

we have the right to work. You, the EPA, are 

taking away these rights. Thank you. 

(Applause) 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. And if I 

can remind you to say your speaker number first, 

that would help me out. 

SPEAKER NO. 27: Twenty-seven. 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. 

SPEAKER NO. 27: Hello. My name is Mark 

Miller. I live in Prestonsburg, and I work here 

in Pikeville for Whayne Supply Company. We're the 

distributor for Caterpillar equipment and 

construction machinery, provide parts and service 

support to our coal customers. 

I come today to represent our 160 employees 

at the Pikeville branch, whose jobs depend on the 

coal market, and to show support for the miners of 

our region. We are full of concern and 

uncertainty about our future because of the 

regulatory ambush on the coal industry by the EPA. 

Your changing of the permit requirements in 

April of 2010 has effectively strangled our 

industry. Why were only six states singled out or 

targeted for conductivity? And then why was it 
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reduced to just Kentucky and West Virginia? Why 

are your guidelines only for the coal industry? 

As the rest of the world grows their 

coal-generating electric capacity at a record 

pace, the United States is hard at work shutting 

down all of our coal plants, resulting in massive 

layoffs, mine shutdowns, downsizes, and company 

closures. I personally believe that God provided 

us with an abundant supply of natural resources, 

including coal, to power our nation's economic 

engine. 

We move mountains and we build roads, make 

usable flatland for business development and 

recreational areas. We use the same machinery and 

the same earthmoving techniques to mine coal. We 

do so responsibly and in compliance with mining 

regulations written to ensure we reclaim all mines 

to acceptable standards. We gather today on top 

of a 14 million cubic yard fill of the original 

Leviza Fork of the Big Sandy River. The 

cut-through project enabled Pikeville to grow and 

prosper. 

Gentlemen, let us continue working. Issue 

our permits. We strongly encourage you to 

withdraw your objections. Thank you. 
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(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. Next 

speaker. 

SPEAKER NO. 30: Good evening. I'm speaker 

number 30. My name is Susan Kirkland. And I 

don't guess I would have permission to have a 

15 second power off; could we? To have the lights 

turned off and let them feel what it is like to 

have the power turned off. (Applause). And, by 

the way, just to let Mr. Jim know, D.C. is also 

powered by coal. 

To continue on that, since I don't guess they 

are going to turn the power off, coal -- coal jobs 

are our jobs. They are energy. They are energy 

for this country. Twenty-four percent of Kentucky 

coal powers this country. But it is not just the 

energy. It is the railroad jobs. It is the truck 

driver jobs. It is the jobs that get our money 

and our goods to our people. (Applause). And 

when you start cutting coal, you cut business 

expenses, you cut power, you cut everything. Our 

expenses go up. You take these people's jobs, not 

only are you taking their jobs but you are also 

making it more expensive to live, more expensive 

to buy food, because they have to pay for higher 
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power, higher power bills. Their home power bills 

go up. Everything goes up when you cut coal. 

And you think that it is an environmental 

issue. They are doing everything they can to meet 

and exceed EPA regulations. And it is like one of 

the prior speakers said, not only do they meet the 

regulations but now you're changing the rules. It 

is not fair. And all it is, is an all-out war. 

And these people's are claiming war on you guys 

because they want their jobs, they want their 

livelihoods, and they want their chance to raise 

their families. And if you cut it, then you are 

cutting half of the country. There is nothing 

else I can say about it. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. The next 

speaker, please.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Yes. My name is Charles 

Baird. I am President, Chairman I should say, of 

Coal Operators and Associates based in Pikeville, 

Kentucky. 

First I would like to thank all of the state 

officials, particularly Secretary Peters and Bruce 

Scott, and I thank all the folks that have 

attended here, the public officials. I don't 
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think you have seen a single public official 

oppose this. These are our elected 

representatives. You had the Speaker of the House 

here, you had the majority leader, you had the two 

United States Senators, you had a Congressman, you 

had the Magistrates, you had Judges. You will not 

see that anywhere. And they all have the same 

message. And I think we need to thank them for 

being here. (Applause). I have already used up 

half of my time there, but. 

Secretary Peters used the word "arbitrary." 

Really what the EPA has done is not arbitrary. It 

is illegal. They have completely ignored the APA, 

which is the Administrative Procedures Act that 

deals with regulatory matters. No public comment. 

It had immediately taken effect. No notice to 

anybody. "Here it is, boys. You do it. If you 

don't like it, you can kiss it." 

Now, that is the Obama way of doing things. 

And I am not blaming Region 4, by any means. But 

their bosses are controlling the situation. And 

it is basically the attitude, "Stop me if you can. 

Until you stop me, I am going to do whatever it 

takes to stop coal." And we're going to fight 

back, and I know there is a hearing on that on 
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July 14th in Washington. 

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the 

environment. Let's face the facts. If they, EPA 

and these folks back here, were concerned about 

the environment, they would be looking at straight 

pipes that are here by the tens of thousands. If 

they were concerned about the environment in our 

streams, pollution of our streams, they would be 

looking at the millions of gallons of sewage that 

is placed in the streams every week. And they 

don't. Thank you. 

(Applause) 

SPEAKER NO. 32: I'm speaker number 32, Gary 

Bentley. And before I get started, I just want 

everybody that is here, we're all here for the 

same reasons, to look around at the politicians 

that were here earlier that have decided to leave 

and don't want to stand around and listen to what 

we have to say. Think about that around election 

time. Look at the politicians -- there are some 

that stayed, and I appreciate it. They are here 

for us. Look at the ones that got up and left 

after they spoke. That is where we need to be 

looking. 

But I am here today as a Kentucky coal miner, 
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a father, a concerned citizen. And I am here for 

the same reasons as everybody. The people of 

Appalachia are scared right now. We only have one 

source of income, one industry, and that's coal. 

Without that right now, Appalachia will not 

survive. These communities will turn into small 

ghost towns. 

Since November, I've watched hundreds of my 

coal workers, thousands of our local coal miners 

lose their jobs. Now six, nine months later, a 

year, these people are facing losing their homes. 

They are struggling to support their families. 

These people and these coal miners, we have been 

let down by our politicians, by the coal 

corporations we work for and the coal 

organizations. If everybody would just work 

together and try to make this work, we would all 

still be working. Granted, these coal 

corporations wouldn't make the billions of dollars 

that they make every year. But us, we would still 

have our jobs and be able to support our families. 

The people of our communities and our coal 

miners and our local coal officials, we need to 

take action. We need to send a message to our 

politicians and to these large companies, these 
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CEOs, and let them know that we are not going to 

stop until they make this right, until we have our 

jobs back. We need this industry to survive. 

Look back at the community members and the 

miners in the 1970s and the union wars. They took 

pride in this area. They took pride in their 

jobs. They stood up for what they believed in. 

Let's send a message to these politicians, to 

these CEOs, to the federal government, to the 

state government. We will not back down. We will 

fight for our communities. And, most importantly, 

we're going to fight for our families and make 

sure the coal industry stays around. Let's show 

everybody the real faces of coal and what the 

people of Appalachia stand for and what we can do. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Next speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 31: My name is Rusty Rowe, 

R-u-s-t-y R-o-w-e. And I'm speaker number 31. 

I'm here tonight to represent JMP Coal Holdings 

and the over 400 employees that depend on coal to 

support their families that work with our 

organization. 

For 30 years, I have worked in the coal 

industry. And just like a lot of you, the only 
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reason I get up in the morning and go out to work 

is to provide food, clothing, and a place to live 

for my family. But now our ability to provide for 

our families is under attack. Many of the people 

attacking us don't even live here. 

Over the years, we have worked through many 

changes in regulations, policies, and procedures. 

But there is always a path that could have been 

taken to lead to a mining permit. That has all 

changed now. Under this Administration, the EPA 

is choking us to death. They have become involved 

in, basically, every environmental aspect of the 

mining industry. They use delay tactics and won't 

give us specific written comments so that we can 

address deficiencies. Last summer one of our 

mining permits was one of those 36 permits. It 

was actually one of the 19 in September that was 

objected to that the Kentucky Division of Water 

approved. The federal EPA objected to it. They 

used the same comments to object to all 19 of 

those permits. 

Earlier I told you why I get up every 

morning, to provide for my family. Few things in 

life get more personal than when someone, and that 

someone is your government, is trying to take away 
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your livelihood, trying to take away your ability 

to provide for your family, for the people you 

love. 

It has become clear to me that the 

Administration and the EPA do not care about 

miners and their families. My only hope at this 

point is that come January we get a new President 

and we get a new EPA. And that is our only hope. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. The next 

speaker.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Ladies -- oh, wow. Ladies 

and Gentlemen, my name is Jimmy Hall. And I want 

to thank the miners. I want to thank the EPA. 

You know, we all have got rules. They give me 

this piece of paper. They told me I have got two 

minutes to speak. Some of our high-dollar 

politicians get up there and tell me about the 

golf courses they have built here and there. They 

overrun their two minutes. 

I live in Letcher County, Kentucky. Okay? 

And it is up there in Deane, around the Deane 

area. And I don't see no golf courses. All I see 

is what I had seen when I was a kid. The same old 

buildings. The same dust. You know, why can't 
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you just do something right? Why can't you just 

keep the money in Letcher County? Why can't you 

take and give us water? Why can't you pay for 

taps for these people? All we want is the water. 

We don't give a heck about a golf course. What 

are we asking for? I don't like repeating myself. 

I hate to beg. I hate to thank everybody, shake 

their hand. And I know we are not doing nothing. 

Because the only thing they care about is who is 

going to get elected. I don't care if a 

Republican gets elected. I don't care if a 

Democrat gets elected. 

We need water. My neighbor has got two 

babies that can't even take a bath come September 

when they go back to school. It ain't time yet. 

I've got 27 minutes. The next time I speak, I 

know what I have got to do, go to every one of 

these meetings that I can find until somebody 

listens to me. Why can't you do what is right? 

Follow the rules. Follow the rules. If they tell 

you two minutes, take your two minutes and go home 

or go back and sit down. (Audience members 

respond). No, I'll go home. I'm coming home. 

This is my home. I was born and raised here. 

Thank you. 
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(Audience members respond)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Everyone ... 

(Audience members respond)

SPEAKER NO. 33: I'm number 33. 

MS. MacPHERSON: No, no. Please wait. Yeah. 

No. Excuse me. Everyone is entitled to make 

their comments. Please show the same courtesy to 

everyone. Thank you. Everyone, we want to try to 

hear from as many people as possible tonight. 

SPEAKER NO. 33: I'm number 33. My name is 

David Moss, spelled M-o-s-s. And I'm the 

Vice President of the Kentucky Coal Association. 

I am here tonight voicing my opposition to 

the EPA's objections to 36 mining permits here in 

Kentucky. I find it appalling the EPA has 

continued to try to curb coal mining production 

here in eastern Kentucky using political science 

versus sound science. The EPA originally stated 

in their interim guidance regulations that they 

would limit coal companies to a benchmark of 500 

microsiemens in regards to conductivity, which 

would affect six Appalachian coal states, Kentucky 

being included. This was issued on April 1st of 

2010. 

After much consideration, the EPA decided 
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that their final guidance document should only be 

issued to two Appalachian coal states, shockingly 

West Virginia and Kentucky. Let us analyze why 

the White House and the EPA decided to make this 

decision. The final guidance on conductivity for 

the Appalachian coal basin removed Virginia, Ohio, 

and Pennsylvania from the original interim 

guidance documents. Why leave off all three 

significant coal mining states if these new 

guidelines are intended to protect clean water? 

The EPA realized that these three states are 

key important battleground states in the upcoming 

presidential election this November. Could the 

EPA have been instructed to not harm the 

re-election of President Obama? I think you 

should ask the 42 percent uncommitted in the room 

here tonight. 

Coal mining creates opportunities for over 

70,000 folks here in the Commonwealth. I think it 

is important to understand that every region of 

the state is interdependent on one another. 

Because of coal mining here in eastern Kentucky, 

especially here in Pike County, cheap electricity 

is produced and Louisville and Lexington prosper. 

Because of the coal mining in eastern Kentucky, 
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mining machinery companies, like Whayne Supply, 

Brandeis, and Bryan Equipment, all companies based 

in Louisville, are able to employ thousands around 

the state. 

So why are we shocked this has come to be? 

President Obama in every year of his presidency 

has tried to ratchet back fossil fuel energy 

production here in the United States. Oil and 

natural gas, especially coal, have all had targets 

on our backs since day one. So speaking tonight 

in Pikeville is another hurdle I am willing to 

jump through to get the President's attention that 

coal matters in the United States. God Bless 

America. And burn coal. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 36: Madam Speaker, I'm number 

36. My name is Rocky Hudson, H-u-d-s-o-n. I want 

to thank you so much for coming to our beautiful 

land. I wish that I had been able to feed you 

before you came to this assembly. By the time I 

get through talking, I think you are going to be 

able to feel the love. I'm a real love machine. 

I'm 78 years old. And I represent the 

Hazard, Perry County senior citizens. Without our 

coal miners, we would not have the quality of life 
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that we have. For the past 40 years, the coal 

miners in Perry County, Knott County, Leslie 

County, Letcher County, Breathitt County, they 

have supplied us with the quality of life that we 

would have never had before. And I'm so glad that 

the EPA was able to come to this beautiful land 

today. I thank God for the beautiful sunshine 

that he provided. You were able to see these 

mountains that we love so much. You have been 

experiencing a little piece of paradise today. 

For 78 years, I've lived in this wonderful land. 

I brought a 92-year-old senior citizen with me. 

And she said for me to tell you that she is not a 

senior citizen, she is a recycled teenager. 

(Applause). 

As Moses said to Pharaoh, when Moses said to 

Pharaoh, "Let my people go," I'm going to ask the 

EPA to let our people go back to work. 

(Applause). In a little town like Hazard, 

Kentucky, we have a hospital that was made on 

reclaimed mountaintop removal. Without this 

hospital, I would not have been able to reach my 

78th year of birth. I was rushed to this hospital 

in the emergency room, and they saved my life. 

Thank you. 
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(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: The next speaker, please.

SPEAKER NO. 36: Hello?

MS. MacPHERSON: Hello.

SPEAKER NO. 36: My name is Alex Desha, 

speaker number 36. I am a Sierra Club member. 

But tonight I speak to you as a proud Kentuckian. 

My grandfather was a deep miner in Pike 

County. And I want a future here for my family 

and myself. I have a vision of a future where 

people are valued over profits, where our water is 

safe to drink, and where I won't fear to let 

children play in the creeks that I enjoy so much. 

And I want an economy that is as diverse and as 

rich as the people of eastern Kentucky. I want to 

live in a place where our future is valued as much 

as our proud past. 

In order for this to happen, we need 

leadership that is willing to protect our most 

valuable resource in eastern Kentucky, the people. 

The Kentucky Department of Water should stand up 

and protect the people of eastern Kentucky by 

complying with and enforcing the Clean Water Act, 

a law designed to protect people. Coal companies 

should be good stewards of the land and the people 
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whose jobs they are responsible for. They can 

provide good jobs and be good stewards by mining 

in a responsible manner and investing in proper 

reclamation of the land. They should be doing 

this instead of fighting the EPA, the agency 

charged with protecting the land and the people. 

We shouldn't be forced to choose between jobs and 

healthy communities. We shouldn't have to choose 

between clean water and feeding our families. Few 

other areas have had to make that choice. It is 

not the people's fault. Our state leadership is 

failing us. What they are being asked to do, 

which is to ensure we have sufficient clean water 

protections for healthy communities, is not hard 

or unobtainable. We're proud of our past here in 

Kentucky, and let's be proud of our future. I 

call on our state leaders, and that is our 

politicians and our coal companies alike, to stop 

bickering and to get to work. Clean water 

benefits protect -- clean water benefits everyone. 

Thank you. 

(Audience members respond)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER NO. 38: Jared Arnett, President and 

CEO of the Southeast Kentucky Chamber of Commerce, 
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speaker number 38. 

I speak on behalf of over 500 businesses in 

eastern Kentucky and eight counties and nearly 

25,000 employees that rely every day on this 

industry. They are all asking me one question, 

and that is: At what cost? As business people we 

make decisions looking at a benefit and a cost. 

And the only benefit we are hearing from you is 

that we are going to have clean drinking water and 

fish will have a safe environment and that we will 

have clean water to swim in. Well, I don't think 

that is quantifiable. I think it is an emotional 

benefit. But what we can quantify is the cost. 

What we can look at is in the most recent 19 

objections to these permits, we've lost the 

potential of $128 million in revenue for our state 

government. We've lost the potential for 3,800 

jobs. And these are good paying jobs that feed 

our families and feed economic activity into 

eastern Kentucky. 

I am not an advocate for unhealthy drinking 

water or for reckless damage to the environment. 

But I am an advocate for the benefits derived from 

mountaintop development sites. I'm an advocate 

for businesses and our people. I believe our coal 
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companies are mining more responsibly than they 

ever have before. 

When I look around, there's more benefits 

than just the direct benefits. Where are our most 

beautiful housing developments? Above the flood 

plain on mountaintop development sites. Where is 

our airport that our community and our Chamber is 

working so hard to provide commercial air service 

for that will be funded by coal severance dollars? 

On a reclaimed mountaintop development site. 

Where is the most conducive habitat for our 

growing elk population of the tourism industry? 

On a reclaimed mountaintop development site. Our 

spec buildings and industrial parks used to 

recruit new industry? On mountaintop development 

sites. 

At some point many years from now we will be 

ready for this shift. But to do it now will prove 

disastrous for our people. Our small businesses 

will close their doors. My question is to ask: 

At what cost? 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. Before 

the next speaker -- stay up -- you can stay up 

there.
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I just want to call the next group, numbers 

60 to 80, if you could please go in the back and 

meet with our staff. Also, if there is anyone who 

would like to make a comment tonight who was not 

registered, please do so now at the registration 

table to get a number. Okay. Thank you. 

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Thank you. My name is David 

Wilder, D-a-v-i-d W-i-l-d-e-r. And I'm a 

concerned citizen from Paintsville, Kentucky. 

And I would like to say that as coal miners, 

we care about the mountains. We care about the 

streams. We also care about development. If you 

will look at these beautiful mountains out here, 

they are beautiful to look at. You can't build on 

them. You can't do anything with them. We as 

individuals here, we deserve the right to be able 

to develop our mountains and develop our 

properties. We also deserve freedom. Property 

owners should be treated fairly and be able to do 

with their property as they see fit. We also want 

the EPA to treat everyone fairly and consistently. 

I can stand up here and talk, but I don't 

think I can say anything that hasn't already been 

said much more eloquently by the -- some of the 

political people up here. But I am here as a 
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concerned citizen. And I want the EPA to realize 

that we need to be treated equally and fairly, as 

all the other states are. 

The EPA should also realize that they need to 

follow the procedures. If they want to change 

some regulations, there are procedures that they 

need to go through, the comment period and some of 

the other things that they have to follow that 

they are not following at all. They are just 

feeding us exactly what they want. 

And another concern I have is where are they 

getting these numbers that they come up with? You 

know, these aren't anything that we're allowed to 

see anyplace. That's -- that's no way, to just 

pull numbers out and feed them to us. And I could 

tell you what you have done here, by what you are 

pushing on us right here right now, you have woken 

a sleeping giant. 

The coal miners in Kentucky and West Virginia 

will band together. And I will guarantee you, you 

will hear from us in November. The EPA is just a 

puppet for President Obama. But we're going to 

show you what for come November. 

(Applause)

PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is Chris, C-h-r-i-s, 
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Haverly, H-a-v-e-r-l-y. I own C & C Mining, 

active permit number 8488078. I had a prepared 

statement, but after hearing some of the comments 

made I know I couldn't get it in with two minutes, 

so I'm just going to fire from the hip here and 

say what I think. 

There's nothing worse than someone coming up 

here and misinforming people about comments. 

Everyone has a right to their opinion, the right 

to state anything they want. But to say that the 

mining industry is not regulated or the permitting 

department doesn't do an adequate job is 

ridiculous. I can assure you I -- I do what most 

people wouldn't even consider mining. I reclaim 

gob piles. And it took me over a year to get a 

permit to reclaim a gob pile, which was actually 

cleaning up a mess that had been there since 1940 

and cost me $100,000 in engineering fees. I put 

up a $65,000 cash bond for a 13 acre site for it 

to be hydroseeded and reclaimed when I am 

finished. 

So for these people, for whatever reason they 

want to come up and say that the mining industry 

gets away with this and that, you don't get away 

with anything in the mining industry. My 
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grandfather was a miner. My father was a miner. 

My family has over 100 years in the coal industry. 

My dad worked 47 years in the UMWA and never had a 

lost time accident. He died at 82 a happy man 

because he knew he got up and went to work every 

day and he earned everything he got. And that is 

all every person in this building wants, is a 

chance to go to work. (Applause). 

I have no animosity towards you people. I 

have no animosity towards the EPA. Because I know 

they are people that abused the privileges and 

rights to whatever they do. But I can guarantee 

you, the mining industry is the most regulated 

industry in this country, making it the most 

regulated industry in the world. I was fined 

1,600 bucks for a coal truck tracking dirt out on 

the highway. I was fined 900 bucks for a loader 

having a taillight broken out. My problem. My 

issue. I paid it. But don't keep people from 

doing things that I know is to raise their 

families and to feed their families. We deserve 

the right to work. Thank you. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 39: Hello. I'm speaker number 

39. My name is Dennis Hatfield. That's 
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D-e-n-n-i-s. And I think they know how to spell 

Hatfield. 

I live in Louisa, Kentucky, and I'm a third 

generation coal miner, and I am a concerned 

citizen who supports the mining of coal here. 

Because I live and work here, I know how important 

these coal jobs are. I know because my family and 

I are every bit citizens as much as those who 

oppose mining. It is not about citizens versus 

the coal industry. We know what it takes to 

survive. We happen to be citizens who support 

coal. We're proud to be part of it. And this is 

not a debate about wanting to have clean water in 

a living environment, because we all live here and 

want that too. But I also know that poverty can 

do far more damage than our regulated coal mining 

environment can. You cannot regulate poverty. 

You cannot diminish its impacts. Without coal 

mining, most of our local tax base will disappear. 

We would lose the severance taxes that help our 

counties pay their bills. Our quality of life 

would change. We wouldn't have the police and 

fire protection, the water extensions, the things 

that give us a standard of living. We would lose 

those comforts that are here only because the coal 
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company economy supports them. I drive on 

Route 23 every day. And I know that jobs depend 

on coal mining here. 

I respect the rights of others to disagree. 

But this is more than just a battle about 

mountaintop mining. This is about all coal 

mining. These regulations will stop underground 

and prep plants and everything in every aspect of 

coal. No one really objects to being held to a 

reasonable standard. We understand and we want to 

abide by the laws. But you can't shutdown a coal 

industry. 

By the way, my day job is General Manager of 

CAM Mining, with 400 employees and 400 families. 

And I speak for them as well. Thank you.

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you.

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. We are 

over here. 

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Hello. I am Bobby May, 

Chairman of the Republican Party for Buchanan 

County, across the border in Virginia. 

And I'm here tonight to support our 

hard-working coal miners. I'm proud to be the son 

of a coal miner and the father of a coal miner. 
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And I'm going to say something to all of these 

miners assembled here tonight that you are not 

going to hear from Barack Hussein Obama. And that 

is, God bless a coal miner. (Applause). 

And, by the way, if anyone is not aware of 

this, "Hussein" in Arabic means "I hate coal 

miners." And, folks, I want to say this to you 

tonight, to anybody that thinks that coal mining 

is ugly, just wait until you see poverty. 

(Applause). This is a war on coal. Barack 

Hussein Obama declared economic war on the 

coalfields of Kentucky, Virginia, West Virginia. 

But this fall we need to declare and win a 

political war. We put Lisa Jackson on the 

unemployment rolls instead of the hard-working 

coal miners. (Applause). But, folks, be not 

deceived. Lisa Jackson is not the problem. The 

man that appointed her is the problem. 

(Applause). And if you are not part of the 

solution here tonight and this fall, in November, 

then you are part of the problem. 

According to information I got from the 

internet, the 19 most recent objections alone are 

estimated to have cost Kentucky 3,800 coal-related 

jobs and more than $123 million in coal severance 
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taxes alone. My advice to the EPA would be 

approve these permits. Turn coal miners loose to 

go back to work. And, man, we need the Social 

Security, the national budget, and so on. And so 

please let our coal miners go back to work by 

approving these permits. Thank you. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 64: My name is Mike Hansel. I 

am speaker number 64. 

This morning we heard a lot of rhetoric about 

clean water, we heard a lot of rhetoric about coal 

mining, we heard a lot of rhetoric, period. If 

you want to know what these people think, all you 

have to do is listen to the applause, listen to 

the boo's. If you want to know who is for coal, 

all you have to do is look in these chairs. You 

can count it. It is real easy to count. Remember 

what my grandmother said this morning, "It doesn't 

take long. It is as plain as the nose on your 

face, son. Let's see how smart you are." 

Okay. I want to give you some -- I am going 

to give you a few quotes that the government needs 

to remember. Thomas Jefferson: "He who knows 

nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind 

is filled with falsehoods and errors. To compel a 
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man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas 

he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and 

tyrannical. The democracy will cease to exist 

when you take away from those who are willing to 

work and give to those who would not. Most bad 

government has grown out of too much government. 

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain 

men from injuring one another, which shall leave 

them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits 

of industry and improvement, and shall not take 

from the mouth of the labor and bread it has 

earned. This is the sum of good government. 

History, in general, only informs us of what bad 

government is. To take from one because it is 

thought that his own industry and that of his 

father's has acquired too much, in order to spare 

to others, who, or whose fathers, have not 

exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate 

arbitrarily the first principle of association, 

the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of 

his industry and the fruits acquired by it. A man 

who has never gone to school may steal from a 

freight car. But if he has a university 

education, he could steal the whole train. I 

don't pity any man who does hard work worth doing. 
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I admire him. I pity the creature who does not 

work, at whichever end of the social scale he may 

regard himself as being. The first requisite of a 

good citizen in this republic of ours is he shall 

be willing and able to pull his own weight. The 

human body has two ends on it: one to create with 

and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their 

ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick 

in the seat of the pants." Thomas Jefferson. 

And here is one from Mike Hansel. "The 

definition of an elephant: An elephant is a mouse 

built to government specifications." Thank you. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 67: I'm speaker number 67. My 

name is Erin Savage, S-a-v-a-g-e. I'm a water 

quality specialist with Appalachian Voices. 

Since 2010, Appalachian Voices has brought 

cases against three of Kentucky's largest coal 

companies, ICG, Fraser Creek, and Nally & 

Hamilton, for nearly 36,000 violations of the 

Clean Water Act. These violations include 

falsified discharge monitoring reports as well as 

substantive permit limit violations. After these 

companies began actually testing their discharge 

and reporting accurately, they reported numbers 
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such as 28 milligrams per liter for maganese, 

10 milligrams per liter for iron, 500 milligrams 

per liter for TSS, and a pH as high as 10. These 

violations were neither identified by the State of 

Kentucky nor were adequately dealt with once the 

State was made aware of the problems we found. 

The State is clearly either unable or unwilling to 

properly enforce the Clean Water Act. Therefore, 

the EPA must intervene. 

The permits in question here admit to having 

inadequate baseline data for reasonable potential 

analysis. This hearing is not about disallowing 

mining in Kentucky. This hearing is solely about 

water pollution permits. We must remember, 

several thousand general permits were approved in 

2009 through the general permit. The number in 

question here represents only a small percentage. 

Protecting our water quality is essential to the 

health of the residents here. Living near 

mountaintop removal, people are 50 percent more 

likely to die of cancer and 42 percent more likely 

to have children born with birth defects. 

The EPA is not destroying coal jobs. Coal 

jobs in Appalachia have increased by 6 percent 

since 2009. The demand for coal is decreasing due 
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to competition from other energy sources, such as 

natural gas. Coal now provides only 36 percent of 

the nation's electricity. What Kentucky truly 

needs is a diversified economy. 

(Audience members respond)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER NO. 66: Okay. My name is Matt 

Lawson. I'm number 66. Here I work for 

Appalachian Voices. We represent several thousand 

members around the central and southern 

Appalachian region. 

I'm going to, more or less, throw away my 

script because I have had a couple of chances to 

speak before and just start by saying that, you 

know, the cell phone in my pocket, about a third 

of the electricity, the electrons that went into 

that to charge it, came from coal. And I have no 

interest, nor does my organization, nor does the 

EPA, I am certain, have any interest in making 

that electricity go away. We appreciate that -- 

that electricity. 

And I want to say thank you sincerely to the 

miners who have made that possible, who put their 

lives at risk going underground doing very hard 

work to make that possible. And I in no way and 
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nor does my organization or those we work with 

want to put you out of work. That is not our 

intention at all. And -- but there has been so 

much misinformation that we have heard from some 

of our local political leaders here, that it is 

really -- well, it makes me feel for the EPA, in a 

way. You have been imbued, I think in some 

people's minds, with these almost God-like powers 

of, you know, how -- of how much impact you can 

have on electricity, on people's jobs. And in 

reality, you know, this is the free market that is 

driving most of this. And because of that, I 

think that we just need to get back to what we 

really need. 

You know, EPA, what we're talking about, is 

36 permits out of hundreds, thousands that have 

been approved across the Appalachia. And if you 

were to back up -- back down now, that would not 

create one single job, because it would not create 

one bit of demand for your -- more coal. All it 

would do is give a greater advantage to the most 

irresponsible operators who do the most damage to 

the water in the area. So please just keep doing 

your job. And thanks for being here. 

(Audience members respond)
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MS. MacPHERSON: Settle down. Settle down.

AUDIENCE MEMBERS: That is a joke. That is 

joke. 

MS. MacPHERSON: Next speaker, please.

SPEAKER NO. 71: I am speaker number 71, 

Frank Thornsbury, T-h-o-r-n-s-b-u-r-y. And I am 

just a concerned citizen from Johnson County. 

To the various offices of the EPA, guests, my 

fellow Kentuckians, today we have heard various 

means and consequences of denying permits for coal 

mining in eastern Kentucky. However, in my 

allotted time, I would like to call attention to 

the very personal side of systemically strangling 

the coal industry. Take my 23-year-old friend 

Aaron Meek, for instance, whose job was just taken 

because of the EPA's arbitrary and inconsistent 

policies. He, his wife, Codi, and his 3-year-old 

son, Jacobi, depended on Aaron's job as a surface 

miner to keep -- to meet their needs. 

While talking to him before I came here, he 

went to pains to express that his coal mining job 

provided an excellent quality of life and that 

though dangers existed, those dangers paled in 

comparison to the love he has for his family and 

the desire to provide for them. He was also quick 
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to explain that what he did in the mines and the 

way he did it is the American way. And I agree 

with him. To go out, work, and provide, always 

driven for the love for God and country and the 

idea that if he works hard enough Jacobi, his son, 

will face a brighter future. In short, coal is 

the Meek family's lifeblood. It is all of our 

lifeblood here in eastern Kentucky, and that has 

been taken away already for Aaron. Thus, to cease 

the existence of the coal industry is to pry away 

the American dream from the hands of hard-working 

men and women in eastern Kentucky. Not to mention 

that Jacobi, growing up seeing his father work so 

hard and have his job taken away by big 

government, that will leave a mark on Jacobi, and 

that mark says that hard work has no reward. And 

that's the greatest consequence of all. 

And the bottom line is that if you take our 

jobs, in November we will take yours. Thank you. 

(Audience members stand. Applause.)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. The next 

speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 68: Yes. My name is David Gent, 

G-e-n-t. I'm speaker number 68. 

And tonight I'm -- I work for a company 
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called Xinergy. We have jobs in Virginia, 

West Virginia, and Kentucky. And because of the 

regulations that you guys have put upon us, we 

have lost so many workers. I don't know exactly 

the number. I'm the foreman for the job in 

Virginia. But I came over here to speak because 

we have people coming to my job that have lost 

their jobs in Kentucky, West Virginia. They know 

me. I've been around. Everybody calls me 

"chicken man." They say, "Chicken man, I need a 

job. I lost my job. I bought a new house. I 

bought a new car." And the reason why they have 

done that is because you guys are not using common 

sense. (Applause). If you don't know, common 

sense says that you will use sound and prudent 

judgment based on a simple perception of the 

situation or facts. The facts are, if you don't 

release those permits a lot of these people right 

here will not have a job. 

And can -- let me ask you something. How 

much coal have you mined in Atlanta, Georgia? How 

much coal have you mined in Washington, DC? 

(Applause). Can you stand there at that door 

tonight and stand there and as these people go by 

you reach out your hand and say, "I'm sorry. 
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We're going to take your job." And that's what 

you are going to do if you don't turn loose of 

these permits. 

Another thing, one more thing I have got to 

say, Lord God I hate saying this, but for all the 

tree-huggers, for all of you tree-huggers, you 

really want to save a tree? Eat more beavers.

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. The next speaker, 

please. 

PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is Mike Trivette. I 

am not a politician, and I am not running for any 

elected office. I'm a local physician in the 

area. I am not here to defend or support any 

coal. 

My question is simply this: Why are we even 

having this forum? This is not a fact-finding 

mission. Your decision has already been made. I 

think you are here as an extension of the -- 

President Obama's Administration. President Obama 

has already said that his goal was to destroy the 

coal industry. And what he couldn't do through 

cap and trade, he is doing through you, the EPA. 

But I want you to understand something. You 

work for us, and we don't work for you. The 
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problem -- (Applause). Understand this. I find 

it very disingenuous, even hypocritical for you to 

take advantage of the benefits of coal and then 

come and tell us how evil coal is when you use the 

electricity. When you drove up in your car. Your 

car was made of steel, which came from coke. 

(Applause). And you're taking advantage of the 

work, the hard work and sweat of the coal miner, 

and yet you are up here trying to destroy the 

livelihood of these people. 

And I find you -- I find it despicable that 

you would not even consider. Your mind is made 

up. You are not here for a fact-finding mission. 

You are here to make us dumb hillbilly coal miners 

look stupid. And I am not here (Applause) to beg 

crumbs from your table. Understand that. I'm 

here to ask why you are even bothering to have 

this session. Your mind is made up. 

Coal -- if the coal miners will stand 

together, if they will come together and decide 

this is it, we're not going to run another lump of 

coal until you guys are on the unemployment line 

and they stand together as one and shut the mines 

down, you'll see exactly what coal does. Thank 

you very much. 
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(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. This is 

the last one? The last speaker, please.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Christie Riggins. That is 

spelled C-h-r-i-s-t-i-e R-i-g-g-i-n-s. I work for 

Summit Engineering, and I'm an environmental 

scientist. 

I'm a degreed environmental scientist 

concentrated in aquatic resources, and most of my 

time is spent in the streams and creeks of the 

Appalachia. By following fair and reasonable 

guidelines set forth by the State, I have seen 

with my own eyes coal industries improve the 

quality of life and the environment while still 

providing economic development and energy 

resources. However, the liberty of mining coal, 

to mine coal, is being threatened by this 

Administration. It is the free market and not the 

government that is the solution to America's 

energy needs. Inhibiting the free market only 

prohibits technology advancement for the efficient 

use of our natural resources. 

Recent science brought forth by the EPA is 

also highly motivated by political interference 

and funding. There is more science left out than 
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is put in. It is this kind of unfair, unfounded 

EPA science that is being used to cripple our 

economy. (Applause). One speaker mentioned -- 

and are you all ready for this? -- coal mining has 

caused a decreased life expectancy here in Pike 

County. And, additionally, he stated that 

employment has increased by 6 percent in this 

area. Statements such as this are loaded, stilted 

claims supported by the EPA and their supporters. 

And they have the nerve to come here to Pikeville, 

Kentucky and state that is scientific fact. The 

fact is that the number of jobs available has 

decreased. If the same number of jobs were still 

available now as those that were available when 

Obama took office, employment would have increased 

significantly. 

It seems that the EPA has an agenda that 

common sense cannot unravel, being funded by our 

tax dollars. If we bleed, you bleed with us. We 

must have our voices heard in November. Change 

must happen. We will raise our voices and be 

heard by all and end this tyranny on our coal, on 

our jobs, and on our liberty. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 75: My name is Tina Bryant, 
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B-r-y-a-n-t. I'm number 75. I'm just 

representing my family. My husband is a coal 

truck driver. He just got off of work, 16 hours 

working driving a truck. For those 16 hours he 

only got four loads. Now, how is that supposed to 

help me and my family? You guys keep pushing and 

keep pushing. You want clean water? Well, guess 

what? There is water everywhere. Go find it. 

But don't take away jobs from these people around 

here. They have got families. You guys have got 

families. What would happen if we would come and 

take your job? Would you like it? No. 

All you guys want to do is talk statistics. 

Nobody says why. Why do you want to take our 

jobs? Why do you want to take these men's jobs? 

These people are supporting their families. Just 

leave us alone. Go do whatever you guys want to 

do. But leave these jobs alone, and we'll all be 

happy. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 72: Number 72, Skip Holmes. 

Like most of you up there, I am not a native of 

eastern Kentucky. But having lived here for 18 

months, I have gained some insight as to how 

important coal is to this state and to this entire 
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United States. All I have to do is listen to the 

coal train that rumbles by my home 10 times a day 

pulling 100 cars behind it. That's 1,000 coal 

cars every day just going on one route. When you 

see the slogan "coal keeps the lights on," that is 

not just a slogan, that is a fact. 

Coal provides electric power for millions and 

millions of households in this country. All our 

countrymen do is flip the switch and they expect 

the lights to go on. The day they don't come on, 

it will be too late to fix the problem. Green is 

a nice color, and it is a nice concept. But that 

is what it is right now, it is a concept. Solar, 

wind, geothermal, nuclear, natural gas, those are 

all nice concepts. But these have potential -- 

they don't have potential to replace coal in the 

near term or even the midterm. The recent failure 

of Solyndra is a perfect example of just how 

difficult it is to create new renewable sources of 

energy. It is going to take decades to develop 

these new sources of energy. And in the meantime, 

you are killing the one true tested source of 

energy. 

Here in the mountains of eastern Kentucky and 

West Virginia, coal has been the lifeblood of the 
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region. This state has gone from a high of 47,000 

jobs in the industry to under 20,000 jobs today. 

That number falls every time you reject an 

application. Eastern Kentucky is blessed and it 

is cursed by these mountains. They have provided 

coal to fuel the nation's jobs and create jobs for 

thousands of miners. But they have also 

restricted the growth of manufacturing and 

transportation. Without the mines, this community 

will be pushed back to limited opportunities of 

yesterday. 

(Applause)

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Before I get started, my 

name is Mike Baisden. I'm a candidate for the 

House of Delegates in West Virginia in the 20th 

District. That is in southern West Virginia, in 

Mingo County and Logan County. 

And I would like to respectfully request that 

the time on the clock be changed to four minutes, 

if I can. If you could change that to four 

minutes. 

MS. MacPHERSON: And why is that?

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Well, I just would like to 

ask that. You can't do that because that's not 

fair; right? 
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MS. MacPHERSON: That's right.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: It is not fair for you to 

change it. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: That's right.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: It is not fair for you to 

change the rules in midstream. It is not fair to 

my good friend Bobby, who spoke up here two 

minutes ago and you gave him two minutes. And 

that's all I want, is a fair shot to speak to you 

all. And I appreciate the opportunity to do that. 

But now that we're all friends and buddies 

and we're just around and we're just talking now, 

let me ask you this: Do you all really believe 

that green energy -- and, by the way, in case you 

didn't know, solar panels were invented in the 

90s, and that is the 1890s. They haven't worked 

since then. They won't work now. And they won't 

work 50 years in the future. I don't know what 

you expect. (Applause). But I live for the day. 

I live for the day, Ladies and Gentlemen, when 

Mr. Obama is laying -- (indicating) -- Mr. Obama 

is laying on a surgical table and they walk into 

him and say, "Well, you know, the Commission that 

approves your operation has said, 'Yeah, you can 
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go ahead and have it. We're just waiting for the 

clouds to clear out and the wind to pick up so we 

can operate on you.'" 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Wait one second. 

Okay. Next speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 74: I am speaker 74, Jimmie 

Rogers, J-i-m-m-i-e R-o-g-e-r-s. 

I would like to ask you folks a question. 

Why are you here? Because I just heard on the 

news that a commentator said, "President Obama 

wants to shutdown every coal mining operation in 

the United States." So I ask you, why are you 

here? On the evening news another commentator 

said, "The federal government is going to shutdown 

all natural gas drilling." On the news just 

recently, and you probably know his name, I didn't 

have time to write it, a former EPA official made 

the statement, "Crucify, crucify the coal 

business." I can't find that on my notes right 

now. He said to crucify the oil and the -- -- and 

the gas business. 

So my question is: Why do you think the Lord 

Jesus Christ put the coal in the ground 

(Applause), put the gas in the ground, put the 
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precious metals in the ground? To sit there? He 

put the coal and the gas in the ground for us to 

mine it and to get it out to make a living. 

We have no industries in Pike County except 

coal and gas. If you shut this down, this will be 

a ghost town. A ghost town. So we want to see 

these people work and work efficiently and obey 

the law. But all I hear on the news is, "Over 

regulation. Over regulation." My 7-year-old 

granddaughter can't even have a lemonade stand. 

All these four-lane highways we have, U.S. 460, 

U.S. 23, U.S. 119, and Kentucky 80, I don't hear 

anybody from the Sierra Club complaining about 

these four lanes that they did mountaintop 

removal. But I hear all of this crap about the 

coal mining, that it is bad. Hallelujah. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. Just 

one second before you get started.

SPEAKER NO. 79: I'm Winston Oliver, number 

79. Winston Oliver, O-l-i-v-e-r. 

First of all, I love Kentucky, especially 

eastern Kentucky. I have a tremendous amount of 

respect for anyone that works in the coal 

industry. I dream of a Kentucky where the EPA can 
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give grants to universities and local governments 

to help coal gasification become a reality and 

clean coal technology. I hope to see some day 

that we can have these clean coal power plants 

built right here in this county and all of the 

coal-producing counties can export electricity to 

the United States all over the continent. 

I also think that it's amazing what 

mountaintop removal can do, as far as development. 

I think that it can be -- it can go hand-and-hand 

with the environmentalists. Why not develop wind 

farms and solar farms on some of the reclaimed 

sites? And as far as water goes, I would like to 

see the EPA help local utility companies extend 

waterlines to all the people that have bad water 

that need help with their water. I think that is 

a solution. 

And I -- I think that mountaintop removal 

sites are -- would make a good tourist attraction. 

The -- some of the mines that have already been 

mined, people come from all over to look at them, 

I think in Harlan and places. What we do have 

here needs to be marketed better. People that 

want to support it, let them support it, you know? 

There is good on both sides. That's all I have to 
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say. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. Next 

speaker.

SPEAKER NO. 76: Good evening. I am speaker 

number 76. My name is Rob Baldwin, B-a-l-d-w-i-n. 

And I am a concerned citizen of southern West 

Virginia. 

Much has already been said tonight concerning 

the devastating economic consequences of EPA's 

decision to obstruct 36 mining permits in the 

state of Kentucky and many more in my home state 

of West Virginia. But what I want to talk about 

tonight is the scientific justification that EPA 

uses in their rational for obstructing these 

permits. Why haven't any peer-reviewed studies 

been released that justify implementation of ultra 

strict water quality standards for such parameters 

as selenium and conductivity, many of which we 

have to -- the coal industry has to adhere to 

limits in parts per billion. If such overwhelming 

scientific consensus exists concerning damage to 

the aquatic community from these parameters at 

these concentrations, one would think that this 

data would be readily available. You would think 
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it wouldn't be too difficult to find it. The 

absence of readily available data concerning these 

parameters leads one to believe that the limits 

enforced by EPA and EPA's objections to mining 

permits based on potential harm to aquatic life 

are just an excuse to obstruct coal production and 

the burning of fossil fuels in the United States. 

Any reasonable person or agency would not risk 

further jeopardizing an already fragile economy 

without having sound, irrefutable data to justify 

it. And all I want to know is, where is this 

data. Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. My 

understanding is you are the last speaker. Are 

there any other speakers that have speaker 

numbers? Okay. Please go ahead. 

SPEAKER NO. 80: I'm speaker number 80, David 

Kirkland, K-i-r-k-l-a-n-d. I was born and raised 

in this area. 

The coal mountains are what brought this area 

to be what it is. And you all are trying to 

strike it down. Fifty-one percent of our nation's 

energy comes from coal, of which Washington, DC, 

where you all make these laws, is also powered by 
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coal. So earlier it was asked that you all turn 

the lights off, and that was not done. So I 

assume that you all do not want to go without your 

power. Therefore, do not strike down this coal. 

(Applause). We need it. Our economy is already 

fragile. We have unemployment rates not seen 

since the Depression, and you all want to further 

put people out of business. You all want to put 

down these companies that are trying to employ 

people. 

And coal doesn't just -- it is not just for 

power. It is used in insecticides, which help our 

farms produce food. It is used in charcoal, which 

we use for our grills. It is used in medicine. 

It's -- for example, if a child ingests something 

they shouldn't have, charcoal is placed in their 

stomach to remove it. It is used in artificial -- 

it is used in many things, TNT, linoleum that you 

all put in your-all's fancy houses up in 

Washington. (Applause). It is used in the 

perfumes that you all put on yourself. It is used 

in ammonia, which we use to clean our homes. It 

is used in paint. It is not just power. It is 

used to heat and melt steel so that we can have 

buildings like this and like we have out in 
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Washington. 

My question to you is: We are the people and 

we want the coal, so why can't we have it? 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. At this time, I would 

like to turn it back to Jim Giattina for some 

closing comments. Jim. 

MR. GIATTINA: I want to thank you all for 

your participation both this afternoon and this 

evening. I know it has been a long day for folks, 

and we truly do appreciate it. We understand and 

can feel the passion on all sides of this issue. 

I can assure you that our minds are not made 

up on these permits. The comments that we 

receive, both oral and written, as I said at the 

outset, will be considered and evaluated as we 

make the final determination regarding the permit 

objections. After consideration of the record 

that you have provided to us here and in 

Frankfort, after we consider again the 

requirements of the Clean Water Act and its 

regulations, the Regional Administrator in Atlanta 

will make a determination concerning the 

objections and we'll notify Kentucky DOW, the 

districts, and all of you who have provided your 
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address this evening. 

Again, I thank you for your participation. 

And we stand adjourned. 

(Public hearing concluded at 9:30 p.m.)
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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF KENTUCKY )

COUNTY OF FAYETTE )

 

I, LISA M. SCHWARZE, RPR, KyCCR, and Notary 

Public in and for the Commonwealth of Kentucky at 

Large, do hereby certify that the facts as stated by 

me in the caption hereto are true; that the foregoing 

proceedings as indicated were made before me by the 

parties hereinbefore named, and were thereafter 

reduced to computer-aided transcription by me and 

under my supervision; and that the same is a true and 

accurate transcript of the proceedings to the best of 

my ability.

 I further certify that I am not employed by, 

related to, nor of counsel for any of the parties 

herein, nor otherwise interested in the outcome of 

this proceeding.

 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have affixed my 

signature and seal this 11th day of June, 2012.

 _______________________________

 LISA M. SCHWARZE, RPR, KyCCR

 Notary Public, State-at-Large

 2404 Doubletree Court

 Lexington, Kentucky 40514

 859.533.8961

My Commission Expires: June 13, 2013