U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

59–748 WASHINGTON : 1999

H.R. 1568: THE VETERANS ENTREPRENEURSHIP

AND SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT ACT OF

1999

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

WASHINGTON, DC, JUNE 23, 1999

Serial No. 106–20

Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business

(

(II)

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

JAMES M. TALENT, Missouri, Chairman

LARRY COMBEST, Texas

JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado

DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois

ROSCOE G. BARTLETT, Maryland

FRANK A. LOBIONDO, New Jersey

SUE W. KELLY, New York

STEVEN J. CHABOT, Ohio

PHIL ENGLISH, Pennsylvania

DAVID M. MCINTOSH, Indiana

RICK HILL, Montana

JOSEPH R. PITTS, Pennsylvania

MICHAEL P. FORBES, New York

JOHN E. SWEENEY, New York

PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania

JIM DEMINT, South Carolina

EDWARD PEASE, Indiana

JOHN THUNE, South Dakota

MARY BONO, California

NYDIA M. VELA ́ZQUEZ, New York

JUANITA MILLENDER-MCDONALD,

California

DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois

CAROLYN MCCARTHY, New York

BILL PASCRELL, New Jersey

RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas

DONNA M. CHRISTIAN-CHRISTENSEN,

Virgin Islands

ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania

TOM UDALL, New Mexico

DENNIS MOORE, Kansas

STEPHANIE TUBBS JONES, Ohio

CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas

DAVID D. PHELPS, Illinois

GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California

BRIAN BAIRD, Washington

MARK UDALL, Colorado

SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada

HARRY KATRICHIS, Chief Counsel

MICHAEL DAY, Minority Staff Director

(III)

C O N T E N T S

Page

Hearing held on June 23, 1999 ............................................................................... 1

WITNESSES

Myers, Betsy, Associate Deputy Administrator, Entrepreneurial Development,

U.S. Small Business Administration .................................................................. 3

Baskerville, Anthony L., Deputy National Service Director for Employment,

Disabled American Veterans ............................................................................... 16

Callaway, Valerie K., Sergeant First Class, disabled retired veteran ................ 17

Lopez, John K., Association for Service Disabled Veterans ................................. 19

Naschinski, Emil W., Assistant Director, National Economic Commission, the

American Legion .................................................................................................. 20

Elmore, William D., Data Force Associates ........................................................... 30

Foster, Charles, Group President, SBC Communications, Inc ............................ 31

White, Stephen H., President, White & Company ................................................ 33

APPENDIX

Opening statements:

Talent, Hon. James M ...................................................................................... 41

Davis, Hon. Danny K ....................................................................................... 45

Christian-Christensen, Hon. Donna M ........................................................... 49

McCarthy, Hon. Carolyn .................................................................................. 50

LoBiondo, Hon. Frank A .................................................................................. 51

Prepared statements:

Myers, Betsy ..................................................................................................... 52

Baskerville, Anthony L .................................................................................... 61

Callaway, Valerie K ......................................................................................... 65

Lopez, John K ................................................................................................... 68

Naschinski, Emil W .......................................................................................... 74

Elmore, William D ............................................................................................ 80

Foster, Charles ................................................................................................. 86

White, Stephen H ............................................................................................. 93

Additional material:

Legislative Text of H.R. 1568, ‘‘The Veterans Entrepreneurship and Small

Business Development Act of 1999’’ ............................................................ 97

Letter from James N. Magill, Director, National Veterans Employment,

Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States, to Chairman Talent ...... 134

Statement of Michael P. Cline, Master Sergeant (Ret.), Executive Director, Enlisted Association of the National Guard of the United States ..... 135

Statement of Larry D. Rhea, Deputy Director of Legislative Affairs, Non

Commissioned Officers Association of the United States of America ....... 143

Statement of Vietnam Veterans of America ................................................... 153

Report of the SBA Veterans Affairs Task Force for Entrepreneurship:

‘‘Leading the Way: What Veterans Need from the SBA’’ ........................... 165

SBA News Release, July 2, 1998: ‘‘SBA Forms Task Force to Address

Concerns of Veteran-Owned Businesses’’ .................................................... 184

SBA News Release, November 9, 1998: ‘‘Veterans’ Entrepreneurial Task

Force Presents SBA with Recommendations for Improved Services to

Veterans’’ ....................................................................................................... 186

Informational Flyer about the Veterans Entrepreneurship and Small

Business Development Act of 1999 .............................................................. 188

(1)

H.R. 1568: THE VETERANS ENTREPRENEURSHIP AND SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT

ACT OF 1999

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 23, 1999

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,

Washington, DC.

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:30 a.m., in Room

2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Jim Talent (chair of the

committee) presiding.

Chairman TALENT. Good morning. Today the Committee on

Small Business will examine the Veterans Entrepreneurship and

Small Business Development Act of 1999. This bill implements

many recommendations suggested by the SBA’s Veterans Affairs

Task Force for Entrepreneurship. In July, Administer Alvarez established the SBA Veterans Affairs Task Force for Entrepreneurship. The task force included representatives from the major veterans service organizations and veterans advocacy groups, veteran

owned businesses, SBA management board members, and SBA research partners. Emil Naschinski, Tony Baskerville, Bill Elmore,

John Lopez, and Steve White served on the task force.

The bill we will examine today, the Veterans Entrepreneurship

and Small Business Development Act of 1999, implements the SBA

veterans affairs task force high priority recommendations. First,

H.R. 1568 makes veterans eligible for funds under the microloan

program. This enables veterans to access capital markets currently

available to women, low-income minority entrepreneurs, and other

business owners possessing the capability to operate successful

business concerns.

Second, H.R. 1568 amends the Small Business Development Act

to require the Secretary of Veterans Affairs, the Administrator of

the Small Business Administration, and the Small Business Development Center Association to train all veterans, including disabled

veterans, in business training, management assistance, procurement opportunities, and other business areas.

Third, H.R. 1568 creates the National Veterans Business Development Corporation. This corporation will coordinate private and

public resources from Federal organizations, the Small Business

Administration and the Department of Veterans Affairs to establish and maintain a network of information and assistance centers

for use by the veterans and the public. H.R. 1568 requires the National Veterans Business Development Corporation to become selfVerDate 04-JAN-2000 09:45 Jan 27, 2000 Jkt 010199 PO 00000 Frm 00004 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 E:\HEARINGS\59748A.XXX txed02 PsN: txed02
2

sustaining by eliminating the corporation’s Federal funding, which

is minimal anyway, after 4 years.

Finally, H.R. 1568 affords veteran-owned small businesses an opportunity to compete on the same level with small business concerns owned and controlled by socially and economically disadvantaged individuals, including opportunities for procurement contracts. This committee, through H.R. 1568, is addressing those concerns that veterans themselves identified as most pressing.

We have two panels of witnesses who have agreed to appear before the committee today. Before we turn to the first panel of witnesses, I want to recognize the distinguished Ranking Member for

any statement she may wish to make.

[Mr. Talent’s statement may be found in the appendix.]

Ms. VELA ́ZQUEZ. Good morning and thank you, Mr. Chairman for

holding today’s hearing on H.R. 1568, the Veterans Entrepreneurship and Small Business Development Act of 1999. I would like to

commend you for your strong commitment to veterans. I know that

they join me in thanking you for all of your work on their behalf.

Countless men and women have fought for our country and its

ideals as members of our armed services. Often upon their return

to civilian life, veterans have encountered barriers to starting or

expanding a business. In fact, one of the regional goals of the Small

Business Administration was to help our veterans make the transition to the civilian economy and to overcome these barriers.

Currently, there are 5.5 million businesses owned or operated by

veterans. Additionally, there are 100,000 service-disabled veterans

within the business community. Although there are a number of

programs of the SBA to provide assistance, many of these are not

specifically targeted to veterans. Today’s legislation, H.R. 1568,

seeks to remedy some of the inequalities that our service men and

women face upon their return to civilian life.

I strongly support the intent of this legislation because I believe

that those men and women who have served this country in uniform deserve the opportunity to succeed. This is especially true of

our service-disabled veterans, all of whom have made a profound

sacrifice for their nation. H.R. 1568 takes a number of steps to provide greater assistance to veterans. First, it creates an associate

Administrator for Veterans Business Development at SBA.

Second, it establishes an Advisory Committee on Veterans Business Affair and a Veteran’s Corporation. Both of these will help coordinate public and private resources for veterans and provide

greater information to veteran owned businesses.

Additionally, this legislation provides increased opportunity for

veterans to access capital through the SBA.

Finally, H.R. 1568 seeks greater veteran and service-disabled

veteran involvement in government subcontracting and procurement goals. A 5 percent procurement target is established for service-disabled veterans. Although I strongly support reaching out to

the disabled communities, especially those injured in service to

their country, the committee needs to look at how this change will

affect the overall 23 percent procurement goal for small business

contracting.

Additionally, it is critical that we examine the impact that this

legislation will have on other programs designed to provide entreVerDate 04-JAN-2000 09:45 Jan 27, 2000 Jkt 010199 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 E:\HEARINGS\59748A.XXX txed02 PsN: txed02
3

preneurial assistance. Specifically, the Committee needs to look at

the cost of this program and where the money needed to pay for

it will come from, either through additional appropriations or budget cuts elsewhere at SBA. It’s crucial that while we help our nation’s veterans, that this is done in a balanced and reasonable manner. We all support reaching out to promote economic opportunity,

and I look forward to assisting the veteran community.

Again, I would like to commend Mr. Talent for all of his work

on behalf of veterans throughout our country.

Once again, Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding this hearing,

and I look forward to hearing today’s testimony.

Chairman TALENT. I thank the gentlelady and also for her assistance and advocacy on behalf of veterans. Let’s get right to the first

panel. We have two panels today and then a markup.

Our first witness, and we are glad to have her as always, is

Betsy Myers, the Associate Administrator for Entrepreneurial Development and Director of the Small Business Welfare to Work of

the Small Business Administration. Ms. Myers, I understand that

you are on a tight time frame, you have to leave in about half an

hour. What I am going to do then is—the Ranking Member and I

have discussed it—as you give your testimony, we will be kind of

informal here. If Members have a question or two for Ms. Myers,

go ahead and just jump in and ask.

If it doesn’t get to be too much of a free-for-all, we will just try

to do it that way with your testimony

STATEMENT OF BETSY MYERS, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR

ENTREPRENEURIAL DEVELOPMENT AND DIRECTOR OF

SMALL BUSINESS WELFARE TO WORK, SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

Ms. MYERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much for

the opportunity to be here today to comment on H.R. 1568, the Veterans Entrepreneurship and Small Business Development Act.

First, I want to say that it has been a privilege to oversee the

veteran’s office, as I grew up with a father who served 12 years in

the Navy and did two tours of Vietnam. So as a little girl, I experienced what he went through. He lost many friends in the war and

it was very much a part of my upbringing. So when I came to SBA

2 years ago to run the division, it was not my first experience with

the vets community.

I will tell you that my history has been in the women’s constituency. I have been impressed by the diligence of the veteran’s community and I applaud them for their work in trying to move these

issues forward. I always thought the women’s constituency was the

toughest, but I think that the vets give them a run for their money.

The SBA has been very supportive of the efforts to assist vets and

to increase their opportunities for small business. The SBA believes

strongly in the importance of supporting America’s vets and we

have strived to accomplish much in helping veterans achieve success as entrepreneurs.

Last summer, as the Chairman said, we convened a task force

for entrepreneurship. It was the first time that the SBA had

brought in veterans advocates in 15 years. Through that task force

we came up with a series of recommendations, many of which you

4

see in the legislation today. We also have contracted for a study of

small businesses owned by services-disabled vets, due by the end

of this year, which will give us information on Federal contracting

and what is available for vets throughout the government, information that is much needed and we don’t have.

We have also been developing the Veteran’s Business Outreach

Grant program and will fund four grants this year. We are also implementing the SBA OVA web site where vets can go to get information that they need to start their businesses and get information

on available resources in their backyard.

We are also developing a number of online business courses,

available through our Small Business Classroom. For those of you

who don’t know, we have developed a classroom that entrepreneurs

can go to any time of the day or night and access classes on the

Internet. We are very proud of that and have a series of classes

from ‘‘Are You Y2K Okay’’ to ‘‘How to Write a Business Plan.’’ We

are developing a classroom for veterans.

We believe that there is significant potential to assist large numbers of vets with quality training information through our distance

learning programs. We can also serve disabled vets who might not

be able to get to our centers through various modes of transportation. Our veteran’s office focuses primarily on the advocacy aspect of the veteran entrepreneur and helping them to learn what

is available through our 70 district offices, SBDCs and other programs.

The total veteran population is approximately 24 million, and 4.5

percent of all businesses are owned by veterans. In FY98, 13 percent of all SBA loans went to veteran-owned small businesses. Of

those reporting their veteran status, 65,000 of the clients that received counseling at SBA were to veterans. In the 8(a) program,

about 12 percent of all participating firms were vets, which accounted for about 721 million dollars of contracts.

We applaud the intent of H.R. 1568, and we believe strongly that

we should help our vets. But we also feel that the bill duplicates

some of what SBA is already doing and there are certain provisions

with which we have concerns.

Section 201 would create an Office of Veterans Business Development reporting directly to the Administrator and change the status

from Assistant Administrator to Associate Administrator. I think

that we have to look at the issue of competing interests. Our Administrator developed the Office of Entrepreneurial Development to

house all of the entrepreneurial development issues, as well as veterans, Native Americans, and women.

Some of the proposals in the plan would create new entities. We

already have an office that is devoted to vets. Why don’t we take

a look at how that office can do a better job? We don’t believe every

constituency can report to the Administrator. The Office of Entrepreneurial Development is set up in a structure that we think

works.

I think that the issue is that the veterans community wants a

person that has more influence in the agency. What I believe is

that the person that runs that office must have the deepest passionate feeling for advocates and be a true believer in what they

are trying to do, just as the head of our Women’s Office has always

5

been. That’s critical. I am not sure that we need to, through legislation, have that person reporting directly to the Administrator. So

the second issue was creating a national veterans——

Chairman TALENT. Betsy, let me just say what our concerns are,

and what is generated out of this bill, it comes from the vet’s community and just from the record.

This year, for example, the agency cut its request for veterans.

It has decreased their funding for the veterans affairs programs,

decreasing from $1.4 million in 1988 to $340,000 in 1997. We

thought that if we upped the status of this officer in charge of veterans programs it would make it easier to advocate within the

agency for the budget. It is not really the subject of this hearing

but there have been some substantial concerns about whether veterans programs have received enough attention within the agency.

Do you have any comment on that?

Ms. MYERS. Well, historically the problem has been not that the

Veterans Office has not received attention. It is more of an issue

of funding and access to resources, and in a time of declining budgets it is a huge problem. The budgets get decreased, there are not

enough people. I think also that sometimes when you have an office

that is underfunded across the board over years of time we set up

expectations for our constituencies. It is like we overpromise and

underdeliver.

So there is a constant level of frustration. How do we deal with

that in times of decreasing budgets, resources, and FTEs, with a

lot of constituencies all having special interests? What Aida tried

to do when she created the Office of Entrepreneurial Development

was try to house all of the constituencies in one place, to try to give

them greater representation by separating them from Capital Access. I think that has made a big difference.

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have been a strong

proponent of women’s issues and small business, and we need to

continue that focus and really to increase it. But I need to say that

the veterans are a very special constituency for two reasons.

One, we owe them. And secondly, we are having major problems

today in recruitment. One of the reasons is that when our young

people look at the way that we treat our veterans, they are making

decisions as to whether or not they are going to commit themselves

to this type of public service.

So I think that the focus on veterans in this bill is totally appropriate for those two reasons, we owe them and just as important,

if we don’t show an increased concern for our veterans, we are

going to have increasing problems in recruitment. So I support this

aspect of the legislation from a national security viewpoint. Thank

you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman TALENT. What we are doing, the gentleman arrived a

little late. Ms. Myers has to leave at 10:15. I am allowing people

to jump in with limits. If it gets to be a big free-for-all, we will go

back to the regular order. Otherwise, we are not going to be able

to ask her questions. I am happy to recognize the gentleman.

Mr. FORBES. I thank the gentleman. Let me just say that I agree

wholeheartedly with my friend from Maryland. I think the interests of veterans need to be paramount when dealing with particuVerDate 04-JAN-2000 09:45 Jan 27, 2000 Jkt 010199 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 E:\HEARINGS\59748A.XXX txed02 PsN: txed02
6

larly the establishment of a small business and all of the rest of

that.

I would have to tell you that honestly I have some reservations,

Mr. Chairman, in all due respect. Having watched the SBA up

close, I do think there is certainly a great sensitivity to veterans.

I am concerned that by creating some of these changes that we

may do in good faith effort, frankly, to raise the visibility of assistance, we may make it more difficult, ironically, to do integration

with the rest of SBA on some programs. I think that is part of the

problem here.

We have got so many individual offices who are clearly established with the idea of raising assistance levels to those constituencies. I am concerned that if we get to a point where we have just

got to make sure that we are putting the right name on the door

but not getting the kind of integration that we need, clearly we

want to make sure that veterans have access to the 7(a) lending

program.

I appreciate Ms. Myers’ reference, for example, to the great work

of SCORE and working with veterans. But I am concerned again

about integration. To the extent that you could assure this Committee that there really is an erstwhile effort to get veterans integrated into the various programs of the agency. I have seen too

often where well meaning district directors and people who, frankly—this I happen to agree with the reservations of the Committee

and some in the Congress have, that sometimes we find that veterans feel like they are getting shortchanged.

I understand where that comes from because it is generally, I

think, where you have got a district director with a limited staff.

They have got one person who is wearing the hat of several different positions. That is a big problem. You have got a veterans

representative in a local office who is also working with women’s

business ownership, who may be having a coordinated relationship

with SCORE. Maybe doing some procurement work. That I think

is really part of the reason, unfortunately, why we are finding that

veterans are getting the short end of the stick because one person

in that district or local office is wearing three or four hats. That

is not an exaggeration. I would hope that as we move forward with

this well-meaning legislation, I think that it is well meaning, and

I hope it gets to some of the concerns that we all have about better

serving veterans, that, in fact, we do look at that problem and

maybe, Ms. Myers, if you could address some of the concerns expressed rightly by the Chairman on funding, for example.

If we are seeing that the administration is asking for less money

for this valuable veterans program, how do we address the concern

that you have got frankly an FTE shortage, if you will. I am not

necessarily advocating that we plus up employees all over the country, but I am concerned that maybe more of the problem rests with

the fact that you have got competing responsibilities and limited

numbers of people handling those responsibilities at the local level.

If you could address that.

Ms. MYERS. Your concern is absolutely right, that the people are

stretched in the district offices. I think it goes back to the fact that

we need to do a better job of marketing what we already have. I

think a lot of business owners, vets, women, minorities, general

7

population, do not know about all of the resources that are in their

backyard. They don’t know that SBDC, SCORE, One Stop Capital

Shops, are there to help them. I think a fundamental problem is

that we need to do a better job of marketing them.

Currently, already in our SCORE program and SBDC programs,

there are initiatives to make sure that vets are included in the

counseling. For example, in SCORE we assisted over 22,000 veterans last year. I think part of the problem is that we are not getting the word out about the numbers that we are doing.

Mr. FORBES. One quick question, if I may, and then I will thank

you, Mr. Chairman, for the Committee’s patience. Is there a coordinated effort at the agency now with veterans, if somebody walks

into either a local SBA office or a small business development center, is there an effort to plug them in to procurement, if that is

their interest, to the 7(a) Loan Program or the 8(a) program, technical assistance, or all of the rest of the valuable programs being

offered at SBA? Is there an effort to move them along or just an

effort to kind of deal with the veteran as a veteran with, frankly,

that one person with limited, frankly, programmatic expertise. One

person can’t have all of that expertise.

Is there a way to move them through the menu of programs at

SBA?

Ms. MYERS. Absolutely. We are trying through our district offices. There is a person at each district office, even though many

of them have shared FTEs. But the good news is that this Administrator, through our New Markets Initiative, is targeting populations that are underserved, which include veterans, disabled veterans, disabled populations, women and minorities. So we are very

much trying to market to vets and do a better job of getting the

word out about the available resources.

Mr. FORBES. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the time and the patience of the Committee. I would hope that maybe, Ms. Myers, if

you could take back, I think the Committee would benefit if there

was some paper that the agency could send up to us that shows

kind of how we are coordinating and we are actually integrating

veterans who walk in cold off the street and need to be serviced

by these programs. We could show how that integration actually

works. It would be very helpful to me anyway and the other Members as well.

Chairman TALENT. I thank the gentleman and the Ranking

Member has a question.

Ms. VELA ́ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Myers, in light

of budgetary constraints there is one aspect of the legislation that

raises some concerns to me. That is that it creates, this legislation

creates an associate Administrator of veterans affairs, the veterans

corporation, and the veterans advisory board. So doesn’t it seem to

you that we are creating a situation where redundancy will exist

and where the resources that should be going to help veterans will

be used for travel and/or staffing?

Ms. MYERS. I do believe that what you are saying is true. Sometimes I think that instead of fixing what we already have, we create new entities to add on top of what is already there. Looking at

the National Veterans Business Development Corporation, the legislation is asking for 12 million dollars over 4 years. I would say

8

if we took the same money, or a portion of that money, and put it

to the existing Veterans Office, we could take advantage of an entity that is already working. So I think that is a huge issue in an

era of declining budgets.

The National Veterans Business Development Corporation reminds me of the National Women’s Business Council of which Amy

Millman is the executive director. Amy has done a fantastic job and

the entity has worked. But their funding is only $600,000. So you

might be able to do the Veterans Corporation for less money. The

advisory committee that is proposed in the legislation currently exists at SBA. SBA started that in 1984, and we are reestablishing

that. So we already have that entity, and don’t feel it needs to be

recreated.

Ms. VELA ́

ZQUEZ. This legislation would put veterans on par with

minorities in terms of loan decisions. There have been numerous

studies detailing that blacks and Hispanics are less likely to get

loans. Could you please provide this committee with any statistics

that shows discrimination against veterans?

Ms. MYERS. One of the problems is that we don’t have statistics

on vets. It is one of the issues that really has been a problem for

us, particularly in procurement, where we don’t have the statistics

to show how many veterans are getting procurement contracts.

On the issue of the subcontracting goal, we don’t know right now

how many contracts veterans are getting, so it is hard to make a

goal. One of the things that we absolutely favor is getting some

better data to be able to make some of these decisions. In our lending programs, the vets have actually done pretty well. About 13

percent of our loans go to veterans. So that is an area where we

can do better, but they have done pretty good in getting our loans.

We are very much in favor of doing a better job of marketing

what is available. I think—I can’t stress that enough—that we

have those programs that are available that vets can access but

many of them just don’t know that they are there. That goes also

for the ability to apply for 8(a) status, to show that they have economic and social disadvantage. They have that right as other minorities groups do. Many of them who could show that could participate in the 8(a) program. All of these programs are there for

them to access.

Ms. VELA ́

ZQUEZ. Why do you think that they haven’t been able

to access it? Because of the staffing? Because you haven’t done the

right outreach to share the information with them? What is the

problem?

Ms. MYERS. I think that oftentimes people don’t know about the

programs. It is something that we strive for. We have a wonderful

district office system and people in the field to get the word out

about the resources available. I think many vets and businesses in

the country just aren’t aware of the programs. Marketing of government programs, that is an issue that I think you could almost

have a hearing on. Are we really across the board on all of the programs that help people that have the ability to access government

programs? Do people know what their government does for them?

Ms. VELA ́ZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman, I have a last question because I

have to leave at 10:30 for a press conference.

9

Ms. Myers, currently the Federal Government procurement goal

for small business is 23 percent. Of this 23 percent the off zone program has a 1.5 percent goal; the small disadvantaged businesses

have a 5 percent goal; and women-owned businesses have a 5 percent goal. If we add a 5 percent goal for veterans without increasing the size of the pool, aren’t all of these groups simply going to

be fighting over a smaller and smaller amount?

Ms. MYERS. That is a tough issue that has been on the table for

so long. Any time that another constituency group wants to get into

those kinds of programs, it shrinks the pool. I think the fundamental issue that we have in the vets community is that we don’t

know, we don’t have enough information to even know what they

are getting to be able to establish a goal. I think that the first step

is getting the information we need, and we are working on that.

We fully agree that vets should be recognized on these issues of

procurement, so we are currently working on a letter to Office of

Federal Procurement Policy. We have been assessing all of the

changes that are needed in how we collect information so that we

can change the way that we do that. Our Administrator also is very

dedicated to this and intends to mandate that all of our agency programs, beginning October 1, 1999, request information from all of

our clients requesting their veteran status and service disability

status.

Ms. VELA ́ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. GONZALEZ. Mr. Chairman?

Chairman TALENT. Go right ahead.

Mr. GONZALEZ. I guess this is more structural than a question.

It appears to me that what we are doing here is approaching a

problem. No one on this Committee doesn’t want more attention

being paid to veterans, and how we are going to do it is obviously

the question. What I see here is basically a structural approach.

We will set a precedent when we do that. It may be required and

necessary. My question to you is when we make this kind of structural modification, should it not be based on need, on distinct

needs, something that is unique, a constituency that needs to be

addressed differently from other groups, for instance?

There is something else that is going on. The dynamic here is

that these are veterans and the tremendous respect and obligation

and responsibility that we have to them. Could this be a time when

maybe it is not just a consideration again of unique and very distinct needs that are so different that need to be addressed structurally. Should we also take into consideration status, in that these

are veterans? You have heard that concern. It spills over to retention, what makes service in the Armed Forces attractive and how

we—obviously, retain but how we also get people to come into the

service. Should that be a legitimate consideration as we go into

what, I believe, is going to be structural change in nature?

Ms. MYERS. You raise a really good point. I can’t stress enough

how important veterans are to our country and to our government

and to our agency. We feel in this administration and from the

head of our agency, Ms. Alvarez, they are very important to us.

I guess the fundamental question comes down to do we need to

create programs for vets when they already exist? That is really,

I think, what it comes down to. We are already working on that,

10

reaching veterans through SCORE, SBDCs and other programs. Do

we need to then mandate that, or is it something that we can work

closer with you and the advocates to our advisory committee to try

to do a better job when their needs aren’t being filled? That is how

we are looking at it. Part of the issue is getting better statistics

and more information.

Mr. GONZALEZ. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman TALENT. I just have a few. There is a study going on

now on veterans access to entrepreneurship, particularly disabled

vets. When did the agency contract that study out?

Ms. MYERS. December 1998.

Chairman TALENT. When did Congress pass the money and authorize it?

Ms. MYERS. Congress did not give us any money for it. They authorized it but didn’t appropriate funds. Our Administrator found

the money, $360,000, to pay for the study. We are anticipating its

being finished by the end of this year.

Chairman TALENT. I thought we gave them $750,000 in September of 1997, and the agency didn’t contract the study until December of 1998.

Ms. MYERS. Right. The $750,000 was for the outreach grants, not

for the study.

Chairman TALENT. It covered the study as well, I think. It took

14 months to contract the study.

Ms. MYERS. From what we understand, we did not have an appropriation for the study. We allocated our own money for the

study.

Chairman TALENT. It did take 14 months, didn’t it?

Ms. MYERS. It did take us a while. Part of the problem, Mr.

Chairman, the biggest problem goes back to that we don’t have the

statistics. The organization that we contracted with also had problems getting the statistics that they needed and the information.

Chairman TALENT. You are telling me that the organization that

you contracted with was the problem——

Ms. MYERS. No. The problem was that they had trouble accessing—we don’t have proper statistics about vets throughout the government.

Mr. FORBES. Mr. Chairman, could I just ask a quick question.

The office of advocacy, isn’t that part of their responsibility, to

gather those statistics?

Ms. MYERS. Yes.

Mr. FORBES. But the agency hasn’t been regularly gathering that

kind of statistics?

Ms. MYERS. It comes down to a funding issue and traditionally

they have not.

Chairman TALENT. That is the reason for the study, to get the

statistics. If we want to go into whether we need this bill because

the SBA has been doing a great job for veterans, we can do that.

I would rather not. Larry Wilson said, and he is quoted as saying

in the Sacramento Bee, this is in July of 1998, ‘‘Very little has been

spent on veterans affairs by SBA in the past. We are just not

reaching out more.’’

Would you agree with that?

Ms. MYERS. Historically, yes.

11

Chairman TALENT. Because while you said this $12 million could

be spent on Veterans Affairs, it could not if we gave the administration what it requested because it keeps requesting cuts in Veterans Affairs.

Ms. MYERS. We are dealing with the whole downsizing of government and everything is being cut.

Chairman TALENT. You have enough money to ask for the things

that you think are important. I agree with those, too, like

microloans, the women’s business centers. I strongly supported

those. But the whole point is that it shows where veterans rank

currently in the agency’s priorities, just not at the top. Again, I understand that there is never enough money to do everything that

you want. But the point of this bill is to say more strongly—all of

us on both sides of the aisle have been saying it for years—that you

need to pay more attention to veterans. Don’t come in and say that

the bill is no good because we are paying enough attention to veterans.

Ms. MYERS. We are not saying that the bill is not any good. We

think the bill has some very good points to it.

Chairman TALENT. You have got room in the budget now for ten

associate administrators, right? So this would be another one. It is

not like the first one.

Ms. MYERS. No.

Chairman TALENT. I mean for SBDC, a program I support, the

administration keeps asking for cuts in it, but we have got an associate Administrator for SBDCs. Government contracting, that is

important. We are saying that the veterans are important, too.

That is all we are saying.

Ms. MYERS. We absolutely agree with you. I think our philosophy

has been that we have many programs that service all businesses.

Our goal has been to make sure that vets and all constituencies access all of our programs, our 7(a), our procurement programs, our

technical assistance programs. Our approach has not been to single

out a constituency. It is to provide those services for all constituencies.

Chairman TALENT. If you want, go ahead.

Ms. VELA ́ZQUEZ. Ms. Myers, where would you have to cut to implement this legislation?

Ms. MYERS. Well, it depends on what amounts are attached to

each piece. For example, if the $12 million piece like that came in,

we would have to get back to you. I don’t have the authority today

to tell you where we would cut.

Chairman TALENT. OK. Why don’t you continue with your statement.

Ms. MYERS. I think a lot of it has been covered. But I will say

that many of the things in this legislation came out of the task

force’s work. We felt really good about the task force’s work and

our efforts to try to make some improvements in the veteran’s community.

One of the recommendations that came out was to add representatives of the vets community to our National Advisory Council,

which we did. We also added someone to our Small Business Development Center Advisory Board. Some have been added to our

SCORE board to make sure that veterans are represented in all of

12

our advisory boards. So that is making a big difference. For example, we have added in this year’s SBDC program announcement

that part of the requirement is to do a better job of reaching out

to vets.

So we think that that will make a big difference. With regards

to financial assistance, we believe that the existing 7(a) program is

adequate to serve veterans’ borrowing needs. Our major concern is

whether the legislation is intended to require SBA to make direct

loans to service-disabled vets. As you are aware, we have not received any funding for the 7(a) Direct Loan Program since 1995.

In choosing to discontinue direct loan funding, the Congress

sought to make the 7(a) program more cost effective and to make

better use of the skills and abilities of our lending partners. So the

program is authorized, but not funded. That is so for the HAL program and the Vietnam Era vet direct loans program. That is one

that is authorized, but we just don’t have the funding for it.

We feel strongly that more microloans to vets is a very good idea.

And also we are very much in favor of an SBIC for vets. We have

three now for women, and we are very excited about the potential

of that. The same process could be used for vets. We are very supportive of that. We are very much in support of the legislation to

increase service-disabled veteran participation in subcontracting

opportunities. Again, as I talked about earlier, our problem is that

we just don’t have the information right now to determine what

that goal should be. We don’t know what they are currently getting, but we feel strongly that they should be recognized and that

we should collect the data.

In closing, our goal is to integrate all of the constituencies across

the programs that we deliver, and veterans are very important to

us, in particular service-disabled veterans. Working closely with

the constituency, we hope to make strides as we go forward. On

some of the issues that we don’t agree, we would like to spend

some time talking to you and trying to come to some agreement.

Chairman TALENT. Mr. Pascrell has a question or two before you

have to go.

Mr. PASCRELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, Administrator Myers. It seems to me that we are missing a very fundamental principle here, and that is with all veterans programs. We

can’t do enough. One of the reasons we can’t do enough is we don’t

know who they are and where they are. We have not done a good

job, no agency has, let’s be honest, in reaching out.

We had a registration drive in my district this past Saturday.

The veterans just registered and thousands showed up. It is unbelievable. They don’t even know what their benefits are. We have

not done a good job. That is why the debate over veterans benefits,

particularly health benefits, but no different really in the way that

we are discussing it this morning, opportunities for jobs. Folks

need to have that information and many veterans are reluctant to

come forward. The major burden falls upon our shoulders, to communicate to veterans what is available, what are the opportunities.

There is a tremendous amount of joblessness among veterans. They

feel that nobody does care. If we are not outreaching, they are

right.

13

The question of outreach, Mr. Chairman, is very critical to all of

the issues we discuss concerning veterans. Today we happen to be

discussing what the business opportunities are and small business

opportunities. We adjusted the wheels in order to respond to the

needs of women and minorities in the past 4 or 5 years. We need

to adjust and readjust the wheel right away in order for us to have

veterans part of this. I think there is no one that can help us more

than veterans.

If we are establishing programs in the community to make job

information available without discussing it first with veterans, I

will dare say it will be a failure. So we need to bring them in before

we design any new programs but we need to do it, and we need

to do it right away. We need to find the money to do that. This

Committee has always worked in a bipartisan way so that should

not be our main task. It shouldn’t be too difficult a task. So I am

asking you in terms of looking at what kind of outreach we do

have, whether that is sufficient or are we waiting for things to happen.

Every Federal agency that is waiting for something to happen

should be dissolved. We should take the money away from that

agency. We should play hard ball with that agency because either

you are proactive or you are not doing your job. We can mouth all

we want about veterans. As one, I can mouth at myself. Unless we

are doing something proactive, this is not going to work. I want to

hear from the agency itself. What proactive means are we employing to make sure our vets understand what is available to them?

Many of our vets have been laid off in the mergers. Is there any

programs that deal with that or are we flying by the seat of our

pants? If we are, that is not good enough for our veterans. Really,

it shouldn’t be good enough for anybody, but particularly our veterans. I am very concerned about how SBA is going to reach out

to our veterans. I would like to hear about that. Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Chairman TALENT. If the gentleman would yield for just a second. One of the really attractive features of this bill—and I appreciate the gentleman’s help on this; he is a cosponsor as is Ms.

McCarthy, and I appreciate your help with that—is this veteran’s

corporation that we are going to create with this bill which will be

self-sustaining in about 4 years. The response from the business

community has been really excellent.

We are going to have a witness to that effect later on today about

how to raise that money privately. But the corporation I think will

be very effective because one of the things it is supposed to do is

to establish veterans assistance centers within communities to network and outreach. These will be real vets staffing these centers

similar to the women’s business centers. There are also sets of public-private partnerships on a national level.

Frankly, it gets this out of all of these agencies which haven’t

been doing it and puts it into the hands of a group which really

does care. That is what the vets, that was the report of the task

force, they wanted a corporation like that. The vets groups have

been saying that is what we need. I think it will make a big difference. I appreciate the gentleman working on it. We are going to

follow up in terms of what the agency is doing.

14

Mr. PASCRELL. Just in conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I think every

Congressional office in the country, some do it and some don’t,

should be an outreach for veterans. That should be a conduit for

which information can get out to our veterans on health matters

and on job matters.

Many of our veterans are homeless. We need to address that. I

don’t know if the Small Business—this Committee can do anything

about that, but at least we can talk about it, think about it. I personally believe that we cannot do enough. We have great debates

in the Congress right now going on, partially with the administration. That cuts across party lines here in cutting veteran benefits

to parts of the country because there is a shift in the population

to our veterans. I am very concerned about that, and I know that

many of the folks on this panel are. I have talked to them about

it. If we knew where the veterans were and if we were proactive

in registering them to make sure that we can respond in total demographic, I think we—veterans would be hopeful about the future. If we are waiting in our offices for this to happen, it is not

going to happen. It is just not going to happen, Mr. Chairman. I

thank you for bringing this to the table.

Chairman TALENT. The gentleman exposed a little secret behind

this bill. I think these—the veterans assistance centers—are in effect going to empower the veterans communities to advocate effectively on their own behalf. Then you are going to see agencies and

also the Congress sit up and take notice and give them a higher

priority. Ms. Myers, are you finished? I know you have to go. Do

you have anything else that you want to add? Mrs. Kelly, go right

ahead. We are doing this informally. I will go back to the regular

order in just a minute. Go ahead.

Mrs. KELLY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to ask Ms. Myers a couple of questions. It seems

to me odd that you can sit here and say that you don’t have proper

statistics, and I am quoting you. You said there are not proper statistics throughout the government. You are referring to your own

agency, you may be referring to the Veterans Administration and

to other agencies as well. I find that very strange.

I don’t understand why someone in today’s world—pick up a

marvelous invention called a telephone and call and find out why—

what is over there and why you haven’t been collecting. I would

like to know why you knew this was coming and why your agency

didn’t pick up the phone and get the statistics before you came.

Ms. MYERS. They are not available. Unfortunately, the agencies,

for example, as with procurement, have not been collecting data on

vets. It is a big issue. I am not an expert on it, so we can get back

to you in more detail?

Mrs. KELLY. I really would like to know why our agencies don’t

talk to each other. We have a number of agencies in government,

and they don’t seem to communicate the essential pieces of information that we all need in order to have good legislation. I think

that you have just pointed out not your problem so much but the

entire governmental problem with regard to agencies.

The other thing I am concerned about is the fact that I want to

make sure that if we put in place a program to help our veterans

get into businesses and if we get them the support, as we have

15

done with women, I want to make sure this isn’t a hollow promise

to the veterans. I know full well that we have right now in place

essentially a law that says all government procurement contracts

are to have at least 5 percent women.

Right now that is not even over 2 percent. If we are going to

make hollow promises to the veterans, that is not good enough. I

want to know how that is going to be addressed.

Ms. MYERS. Part of the issue, again, is we don’t have significant

information to determine what the vet’s goal should be because, the

data on Federal procurements awarded to vets, including servicedisabled veterans, is not tracked by the agencies. We have been

working to try to assess what changes need to be made in the data

collection. We are putting a letter together that is being sent to

OFPP in the next week or two.

Mrs. KELLY. Do you know how we established that women

should have 5 percent? Women are more than 50 percent of the

U.S. population, and women own more than 40 percent of the U.S.

small businesses.

As you say, we don’t have statistics like that about veterans, but

we need to know where that percentage should be. I would like

very much to see us focus something on that kind of data collection.

But also if 5 percent is good enough for the women, we could start

with 5 percent for the veterans. One other aspect that I find very

disturbing is the fact that I have found that agencies in the Federal Government do not disseminate the essential piece of information that they are supposed to have, 5 percent of their procurement

contracts given to women, allocated to veterans. Are you doing anything at the SBA to try to correct that, to do an educational level

thing to bring up information to our other agencies about that?

Ms. MYERS. About the women’s——

Mrs. KELLY. About the women and are you committed to doing

that about veterans.

Ms. MYERS. Part of the reason we are able to set the 5 percent

goal in 1994 for women is because we had statistics that showed

us we were getting less than 2 percent of the contracts.

So number one, we don’t have that for vets, and we really want

to make sure that we do get that data. Number two, through the

interagency committee on women’s business enterprise over the

last 4 years of this Clinton Administration, we have been working

across the agencies to try to improve the status of women in procurement. We have not really done that great of a job because

there are no teeth in it.

That is an issue for a different hearing, because if there is just

a goal and no teeth, we really haven’t done very much for women

in procurement. So that is another issue. But we do believe that

before you do anything, you have to have statistics to know what

the status is. Let me say again, we feel strongly that vets should

be recognized. They should be getting their fair share of procurement, and we will work towards that.

Mrs. KELLY. Any guesstimate on how rapidly you are going to be

able to do that?

Ms. MYERS. The letter that is going out to OFPP, which has addressed the changes that need to be made, is imminent. Unfortunately, it takes—from what I understand, we can get you more inVerDate 04-JAN-2000 09:45 Jan 27, 2000 Jkt 010199 PO 00000 Frm 00018 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HEARINGS\59748A.XXX txed02 PsN: txed02
16

formation—it takes about a year and a half to make these changes.

You might be able to help us on expediting that.

Mrs. KELLY. Believe me, I will do anything to make sure that

you get the statistics. I don’t want to make a hollow promise to the

veterans. They don’t deserve that. Too many promises that the government has made to the veterans have been hollow, and this is

not one that I want to see. Thank you.

Chairman TALENT. We are going to go back. I thank the

gentlelady. Ms. Myers has to leave anyway and the other witnesses

have been very patient. We will go back to the regular order. I will

say, Betsy, my staff tells me, and with the e-commerce hearing I

am learning more about surfing the net, that when you access your

OED page or office of entrepreneurial development page, there are

a number of different programs. There are two programs which if

you click on them, you get nothing. One of them is Native American Affairs and the other is Veterans Affairs. You may want to

check on that.

Ms. MYERS. We are developing that page now.

Chairman TALENT. The problem being that you have information

for veterans, but they won’t be able to get to it. This is the page

they will go to, and they will click on it and get nothing.

Ms. MYERS. That is going to be connected to the vet’s web page

that we are developing. Also, as I mentioned earlier, our online

classroom, which is accessible through SBA’s home page, will have

classes. We are working on classes for veterans.

Chairman TALENT. I hope you also connect up the Native American Affairs page.

Ms. MYERS. That is being developed as well.

Chairman TALENT. I thank you for coming and being patient

with us. You are always welcome before the Committee, Ms. Myers.

[Ms. Myers’ statement may be found in the appendix.]

Chairman TALENT. Our next witness is Anthony Baskerville of

Washington, DC, from the Disabled American Vets. I want to

thank him and the other witnesses for their patience and understanding. We did want to have a chance to ask Ms. Myers a few

questions. We will go back to the regular order which means we

will hear all of the witnesses and Members will have a chance to

ask questions. Mr. Baskerville.

STATEMENT OF ANTHONY BASKERVILLE, WASHINGTON, DC,

DISABLED AMERICAN VETERANS

Mr. BASKERVILLE. Mr. Chairman and Members of this Committee, on behalf of the Disabled American Veterans and its Women’s Auxiliary, I am pleased to appear before you today to discuss

H.R. 1568, the Veterans Entrepreneurship and Small Business Development Act of 1999.

As an organization of more than one million service-connected

disabled veterans, DAV is especially interested in legislation to enhance entrepreneurial opportunities for veterans and promote their

efforts in participating in the small business community. In spite

of current law, we believe that veterans attempting to start their

own businesses and those who own their own businesses have not

received the attention from the SBA they deserve.

17

H.R. 1568 encourages the SBA and other agencies to implement

positive efforts to assist veterans, particularly disabled veterans, in

the formation and growth of small businesses. The establishment

of the Office of Veterans Business Development and the position of

associate Administrator for the Veterans Business Development at

the SBA will ensure the guidance and monitoring of public and private initiatives to assist this Nation’s veterans in their efforts to

form and expand small businesses. Mr. Chairman, the DAV applauds this bill’s objective to make veterans eligible for assistance

under the SBA’s microloan program and to include service-disabled

veterans with handicapped individuals in provisions requiring that

loan-making decisions be resolved in favor of prospective borrowers.

Mr. Chairman, H.R. 1568 is a comprehensive approach to encouraging entrepreneurship among veterans through loans, a variety of

support and technical assistance, and assistance which veterans so

rightly deserve. The Federal Government has an obligation to serve

veterans because of those who have served in our defense. Veterans

deserve the attention H.R. 1568 provides.

For too many years, other groups in this country have benefited

from SBA’s programs through procurement contracts and certain

benefits of management and technical assistance targeted to these

individuals belonging to particular classes. Veterans have not enjoyed similar status. H.R. 1568 corrects that.

Mr. Chairman, we are very appreciative of your leadership on

this most important issue. H.R. 1568 will expand existing laws and

establish new assistance programs for veterans who own or operate

small businesses. We also applaud the committee’s interests in

these issues and we appreciate the opportunity to present our

views. Thank you.

Chairman TALENT. Thank you, Mr. Baskerville.

[Mr. Baskerville’s statement may be found in the appendix.]

Chairman TALENT. And now Valerie Callaway of Dale City, VA.

Ms. Callaway.

STATEMENT OF VALERIE CALLAWAY, DALE CITY, VA

Ms. CALLAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman and

Members of the Committee, on behalf of all veterans who served

their country and wish to embark on small business ownership, I

thank you for inviting me to participate in today’s most important

hearing concerning the ‘‘Veterans Entrepreneurship and Small

Business Development Act of 1999.’’

My testimony today is limited to my personal experience, not

only as a veteran but as a 100 percent permanent and totally disabled veteran who had once been a small business owner. I proudly

served my country in times of war and peace for over 15 years

never asking for anything in return. During my 15 years, I was

provided the opportunity to not only excel in my military occupation but my civilian occupation as well which provided me a BS in

business from Kent State University in Ohio.

In October of 1995, I suffered heart failure requiring implantation of a pace maker; and a year later, I was medically retired from

the United States Army. Upon retirement, I found it difficult to

find employment due to my disability and the lengthy time it

would take before I was able to see a VA rehabilitation counselor

18

concerning employment. I had three small children at home and

decided I could take my experience and education and open a

State-licensed preschool child care program in my home for other

working veterans who found civilian day care not adequate enough

due to overtime and long hours.

I looked for help but found nothing or no one to support my

ideas. I had gone to private firms and institutions for financial

backing. Without a stable history of residency, no one was able to

help me. I turned to the Small Business Administration only to

find out there was not a program in place to adequately assist my

endeavors, and their web site was always under construction concerning veterans.

But I did not give up. I ultimately filed for a State license, spent

over $10,000 of my own savings preparing my home for a State inspection and getting county approval to authorize such a facility in

my zoning district. The whole process took over 3 months and a lot

of researching. After running into several road blocks, I was finally

placed on a State-certified list, and it was distributed to potential

clients.

Nine months later my business was closed with a loss of over

$25,000. I am telling you this story because I want to tell you how

very important this legislation will be for future veterans who want

to pursue their dreams of private business ownership, and the tremendous support it can receive from programs such as the National Veterans Business Development Corporation in the areas of

business development, technical assistance, financial assistance,

and training upon completion of their service obligation. With the

goal of providing more and better support from the Small Business

Association to all veterans desiring such, I speak for all veterans

in support of this bill’s provisions in providing for enhancement of

services provided to veteran-owned small businesses.

Given SBA’s current strained funding and service to veterans situations, it would only make sense to establish and expand more

technical, financial, and procurement assistance to veterans who

want to pursue their dream of small business ownership. Further,

all actions taken on this bill should directly benefit the veteran and

the disabled veteran respectively. Mr. Chairman and Members of

the Committee, I thank you for letting me speak here today on behalf of all veterans. Thank you.

Chairman TALENT. Thank you for coming, Ms. Callaway. It always helps the committee when we have, for lack of a better word,

I will just say real life stories from people who have tried to make

the system work. We are grateful to you for coming here today. Not

that the rest of you aren’t real live people.

[Ms. Callaway’s statement may be found in the appendix.]

Chairman TALENT. Our next witness is Mr. John K. Lopez of

Stanford, California, the chairman of the Association for Service

Disabled Veterans. I just want to say about John what you can say

about everybody on this panel, how much I appreciate and admire

him and them for their work year after year after year for veterans

in general and service-disabled veterans. It is just tremendous. We

know what an uphill battle you often have dealing with the government. I thank you for your persistence. Mr. Lopez.

19

STATEMENT OF JOHN K. LOPEZ, STANFORD, CA, CHAIRMAN,

ASSOCIATION FOR SERVICE DISABLED VETERANS

Mr. LOPEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With the Chairman’s and

the Committee’s permission, I would like to submit my prepared

statement for the record, offer a brief summary statement, and be

available to answer any questions that you may have. ASDV is extremely grateful to Members of the Committee for considering the

legislation H.R. 1568. You are not going anywhere, are you?

Chairman TALENT. No. Somebody may be, but not me.

Mr. LOPEZ. I am dismayed and I am alarmed by the administration’s response—I am going to forget my prepared remarks—by the

administration’s response that organization and management problems in their agency preclude them reaching out to service-disabled

and prisoner of war veterans who are businessmen.

That is an outrage. I am sure the Members of the Committee are

as outraged as I am. For 20 years, not 5, not 4, not 3, but for 20

years SBA has downgraded its assistance to disabled veterans and

have totally neglected any record keeping of service-disabled and

prisoner of war veteran activity. The administration’s representative acknowledged to you that they have no data, that other agencies had no data; because SBA has not pressed them to collect data.

They have no data because they didn’t care.

That is the answer to their organization and management problem when it comes to providing services to veterans. So when they

respond to this legislation by saying that this is a structural problem for them, that is another delaying tactic. We do not have time

for delaying tactics, especially myself. I am old, and I am dying.

There are others like me. We don’t have time to benefit from our

sacrifice. You have made that decision for us. You will be hearing

from Mr. Charles Foster of SBC Telecommunications, one of the

largest telecommunications companies in this country who didn’t

wait for statistics, and didn’t wait for organization mismanagement

to launch a program throughout the western United States for

service-disabled veterans in SBC’s procurement program.

I am also authorized by the Bank of America to announce that,

in September, they will be launching ten sites for outreach, Mr.

Pascrell, to veterans, especially service-disabled veterans because

their board and their chairman feel that this is a debt of the bank

to this population.

So I urge you to pass this legislation. Refine it if you will, but

it is very, very important, if you are going to keep faith with the

men who sacrificed their well-being for this country. These men

know what is going on in the United States. You have people sitting in the Arctic. You have people sitting in the Antarctic. You

have people sitting in jungles who know if they serve their country,

their country will take care of them. However, when they come

back, what are they told? Organization and management problems

preclude us being of assistance to you? That is an outrage. Thank

you.

Chairman TALENT. I appreciate the gentleman’s statement and it

is an example of the kind of passion that has been expressed to me

in private conversations that led to this bill.

[Mr. Lopez’ statement may be found in the appendix.]

20

Chairman TALENT. I will deviate from the regular order for a moment because Mr. Pascrell, a cosponsor of this bill and advocate for

veterans, wants to make a brief statement.

Mr. PASCRELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Lopez.

So much for veteran preference. We battle those things out in the

States around this country, particularly in terms, since we are discussing employment for employment—I am sure that you support

that veteran’s preference. But you can’t have preference if you don’t

know it is available. And you can’t know it is available unless the

agency, this agency today but other agencies out there, too, Mr.

Lopez, do not make it a special part of priorities to reach out to

the veterans.

We have an attitude, Mr. Chairman, we have an attitude. The

more outreach, the more eligible vets. The more eligible vets, the

more needs. The more needs, the more that we will have to respond. Well, too bad. That is what this is all about. You are fortunate to have a Committee and a Chairman that want to do something rather than just talk about it.

We have to find a way to get this piece of legislation not only

through this Committee, that is not going to be the problem, but

to get it so that the leadership sees this as a priority. That is very

difficult now on Members of both sides of the aisle to get anything

done that is going to practically help people. So you have our support 100 percent. We identify with what you said, and I know

something is going to get done because the Chairman wants to get

it done, and he is going to find a way to do it. We will support him

in that endeavor. So veteran’s preference is what this is all about.

Chairman TALENT. Thank you, Mr. Pascrell. I should say that we

worked very hard with the Veterans Affairs Committee. Mr. Stump

and Mr. Evans are strong supporters of this bill and have indicated

to me their intention to waive jurisdiction to try their portion of

this to expedite consideration on the floor. I would hope we can get

very quick floor consideration. I thank the gentleman for his passion and his support and Mr. Lopez for his statement which

summed it up even better than I could have.

STATEMENT OF EMIL W. NASCHINSKI, WASHINGTON, DC, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF ECONOMICS, THE AMERICAN LEGION

Chairman TALENT. Our next witness is Mr. Emil Naschinski.

Emil.

Mr. NASCHINSKI. Mr. Chairman, and distinguished Members of

the Committee, thank you for inviting The American Legion to

share its views on H.R. 1568, the Veterans Entrepreneurship and

Small Business Development Act of 1999. Chairman Talent, we

also want to take this opportunity to publicly thank you and the

cosponsors of this important legislation.

In our written statement, we characterized the bill as being important because it would expand and improve entrepreneurial assistance to veterans. After reflecting on that comment, it occurred

to us that that was incorrect. Our reason for saying that is that

in order to expand and improve a program, you first have to have

a program. SBA has not had a legitimate program for veterans in

many years.

21

Mr. Chairman, The American Legion now sees that bill as important because it will create a substantive entrepreneurial assistance

program for this Nation’s veterans. For that reason, The American

Legion is pleased to join the other 38 veteran services organization

that have publicly endorsed this legislation.

Having said that, we would like to say that we do have concerns.

We agree totally with the spirit and intent of the law or of the bill.

However, we are deeply concerned about the likelihood of Congress

approving an appropriation of $12 million. While we see that expenditure as a prudent investment in the American economy, that

does not mean that Congress will view it in the same way. We are

also concerned about the Office of Veterans Affairs Resources. As

we stated in our written statement, that office has been stripped

to the point that it can barely provide any service to veterans.

If this program is to succeed, that office needs resources. Our

point, Chairman Talent, is that all too often Congress creates much

needed programs and then either fails to provide funding or compromises the success of these programs by underfunding them. If

Congress is serious about restoring Federal assistance to veteran

entrepreneurs, it must begin by enacting this legislation. It must

also provide the funding necessary for the provisions of H.R. 1568

to be achieved. To do anything less would not make good fiscal

sense.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for offering The American Legion this

opportunity to comment on this bill. We look forward to working

with you for enactment of this important legislation. Thank you.

Chairman TALENT. Thank you, Mr. Naschinski. Let me just say

to you, sir, that I am also concerned about making sure that we

have the funding. I have talked with some of the appropriators who

are strong advocates for veterans and have received very favorable

response. I am confident. I don’t like to say such things until it has

actually happened, but I am confident that we will get the funding

this year. There is a real enthusiasm for this bill, I think, in the

Congress.

[Mr. Naschinski’s statement may be found in the appendix.]

Chairman TALENT. Let me go right to questions. Ms. Vela ́zquez

has stepped out for a press conference. So Mr. Gonzalez is first up

on the questions.

Mr. GONZALEZ. No questions, thank you.

Chairman TALENT. Mr. Bartlett.

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Several of us are

Members of both this Committee and the Armed Services Committee. From the perspective of the Armed Services Committee,

this is a very important bill. As I mentioned before, veterans are

very important to us for two reasons.

One is we owe them. They put their life on the line, many of

them gave their lives, they can’t be here with us. For those who

put their life on the line and still with us, we owe them.

The second reason that our National Security Committee and the

Armed Services Committee is very supportive of this bill is that unless we treat our veterans fairly, our young people are not going

to volunteer for the military. We still have an all-volunteer military

force, and they are watching.

22

They see that we have not kept our promise to our veterans for

lifetime health care in military facilities. I don’t know what it

would cost us to do that, but it is costing us a lot more to not do

that. We need to keep that promise.

In terms of serving our veterans in the small business community, obviously from the testimony, we have done a very poor job

of doing that in the past. Our young people are watching to see if

we are taking care of their fathers and their uncles and the friends

that they know. If we are not taking care of them, they are not

going to volunteer. I think this bill is important beyond just the

perspectives of the Small Business Committee. It is very important

from the national security viewpoint. I want to thank the Chairman very much for his energy in promoting this bill. Thank you

very much.

Chairman TALENT. Mr. Pascrell.

Mr. PASCRELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I would like to

ask a question of the panel. Is there anything we have forgotten

in trying to put together a grassroots piece of legislation that is

going to work, that is going to walk and then run and get passed?

Have we forgotten anything? Do any of you feel that the veterans

organizations have been part, as we expected it to be and as we

want it to be, as the Chairman has so edified, do you believe that

we have done that?

Mr. LOPEZ. I think more it is more important that we get started.

My concern is mainly for service-connected and prisoner of war veterans. Death and disability are very debilitating. We don’t have

time to play political games. Ms. Napolitano is very famous in California for making the statement that, ‘‘nobody fool around with my

veterans.’’ She is a woman who is greatly loved by 3 million veterans and their families in the State of California.

Mr. PASCRELL. I think it is going to be very important to the

Chair that the organizations—we are having the markup today,

too, so the organizations do what they can in terms of the leadership of both parties to make sure that this comes to forth. I mean,

$12 million is .0000001 of the entire budget. Now, we can find $12

million. I support economic development programs and initiatives,

but this is a priority over that. We could go down the list because

if we cannot service our veterans, then who can we service?

If we don’t make it a priority, no one else will. So I agree with

you that we are close to action. The Committee’s vote today should

only be the beginning. We should make sure that we strike while

the iron is hot. If we wait to summer recess, church is out. We will

be back and all of a sudden, it is the year 2000. You know what

is going to happen that year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman TALENT. I really appreciate the gentleman’s comments.

I have been restraining myself today in part because we have another panel and then a markup and I know Wednesdays are always

very busy for Members.

I am glad that the gentleman has stated that. Twelve million

dollars is not a lot of money, and it is over 4 years. After this the

corporation is going to be self-sustaining. I don’t just say that to

say it. It will be. We are going to have testimony from a business

representative, a major executive of a major company, who is going

to talk about what his company is planning to do.

23

John just mentioned another instance. I think there is going to

be a lot of support for this. John, let me ask you a question and

anybody else who wishes to can comment on this. My vision for this

corporation is they are going to, among other things, create these

veterans assistance centers in communities. I hope that we can get

this bill passed. Members may want to start already thinking

about getting one for their community. For a little seed money we

can get a center of some kind of a place in the community, use a

VFW hall or a Legion hall, of the VSO buildings. Then have a couple of good staffers there who can do a lot of what we are talking

about to make sure that the veterans communities are aware of opportunities.

Networking. I visited one of my posts and they were saying how

they—there is a gentleman there who helps connect needy veterans’ families with respite care. He goes out and finds the veterans’ spouses who need some help because they are taking care

of a disabled vet and arranges for respite care. This guy does this

all unpaid on his own time. I think this will leverage so much activity, so many more dollars for these veteran centers. Does somebody want to comment on that? That is really my big vision for this

bill.

Mr. LOPEZ. I mentioned the Bank of America’s program. They

are not asking for Federal dollars. It is their dollars. They feel

their obligation so strongly they don’t want to wait for Federal support—they authorized me to speak for them in this manner. They

don’t need the government dollar. What they are concerned about

is that they feel that it is the Federal Government, and the U.S.

Congress’s responsibility to take care of veterans. Why aren’t they

doing something? Why does the private sector have to do it?

Chairman TALENT. One other question that I want to ask you,

John, because Ms. Vela ́zquez raised it, and it is legitimate concern.

You know, you and I have talked about this. The impact on the

procurement goal for disabled vets on other classes for which we

have goals. This is happening in California. I want you to discuss

that experience here. It has not had a negative impact, has it? And

in fact many of the disabled vets will be veterans or women. Could

you elaborate on that?

Mr. LOPEZ. You will have another speaker, Mr. Foster, from SBC

Telecommunications, a very active program in California. What

happens in California doesn’t bother them at all. They continue to

increase their procurement for minorities, women, and disabled

veterans. We are very, very proud of that company and their response to disabled veterans especially.

The developments in California have no impact. The question is

to get a bigger piece of the pie, not to fight over a small piece of

the pie. I don’t know who developed constrictions saying, well, if

you put somebody else into the mix, suddenly you are going to be

battling over a small piece. The fight is to make the piece bigger,

not to fight over small pieces. It is all misdirected.

Chairman TALENT. We have a vote, but Mr. Forbes, you are next.

You can ask your questions before and then we will adjourn for a

recess for the vote.

Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Actually this would be

for anyone in the panel. If you could just kind of help the ComVerDate 04-JAN-2000 09:45 Jan 27, 2000 Jkt 010199 PO 00000 Frm 00026 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HEARINGS\59748A.XXX txed02 PsN: txed02
24

mittee in understanding why it is that veterans are not accessing

these programs that are offered by SBA. Is it specifically because

veterans just don’t know that the SBA has these programs available to them? Is it as simple as that?

Ms. Callaway, if you wouldn’t mind, share your experience a little bit. Were you able to go to a local SCORE representative when

you were thinking about starting your business?

Ms. CALLAWAY. Sir, I didn’t even know that SCORE existed.

There was a tap briefing. They touched on small business, getting

in touch with the Small Business Administration about procuring

your own small business, but that was it. There was no outreach,

there was no education whatsoever on SBA or what was available

to the veteran upon leaving the service or during while they were

in. It was never available to me. I just retired in 1996. So we are

talking very recent here.

Mr. FORBES. Did you call the local SBA office and try to get a

hold of the veteran’s contact there?

Ms. CALLAWAY. I called the local SBA office, and they gave me

the number to Washington. They are constrained right now. They

weren’t very much help in putting me in the right contacts. Especially in the district where I was. When you are a veteran and you

get out of the military, you are displaced. You don’t have residency.

People aren’t really going to back you up. You have been gone for

15 years. You don’t have the stability that somebody else might

have in the community who wants to start their own business, and

you don’t have the backing either. It is very hard. I found it really

difficult.

Mr. FORBES. Anybody else in the panel want to comment on the

lack of veteran access to these programs.

Mr. LOPEZ. You don’t have a program directed at them. This has

been repeated over and over again. So they don’t have anything to

react to. There is nothing directed to them so they don’t know

about the benefits.

Mr. FORBES. They do have a veterans representatives in every

one of the 50 States.

Mr. LOPEZ. The veteran’s representative is a myth. It is whoever

is wearing the helmet of the day. Today I wear a helmet that says

veterans representative. Tomorrow I wear a helmet for small business loans, and the next day I wear a different helmet. It is whoever is on duty that gets the veterans duty that day.

Mr. FORBES. Is there anything in this bill that corrects that part

of it?

Mr. LOPEZ. Yes. One is I think that you noticed in this bill is we

are asking for the opportunity to do something for ourselves. We

are saying let us try to solve our own problems. Maybe then we

won’t have to come back and burden you anymore. Give us some

resources, and we will take care of ourselves. We are not dead yet.

Mr. FORBES. The veterans assistance centers that you are referring to?

Mr. LOPEZ. And the entire program. The National Veteran’s

Business Development Corporation gives us a chance to take care

of ourselves. We have done it before. We have taken care of the

country, and we can take care of ourselves.

25

Mr. FORBES. I have no doubt. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the

chance to ask that question. I would say that as a cosponsor of the

bill I think that the bill does go in the right direction. It does make

some tremendous advances to try to get more veterans involved in

these programs. I would just say that—well, maybe not a direct result of the legislation, I would hope that one of the nice sidebars

to passage of this legislation would be that more veterans themselves will actually be administering the programs to other veterans.

I think that is part of unlocking the secret. If we have veterans

reaching out to veterans as I think Mr. Lopez is suggesting and

those of the panel and their comments have suggested, I think that

will help also in this outreach effort. To the extent that this legislation would do that, and I think it would, we have made great leaps

forward. Thank you for being here today.

Chairman TALENT. I thank you, Mr. Forbes. We are going to recess and then come back. Let me just say that I have been very

proud of my colleagues. You don’t need me to say that, but everybody is so sincere in wanting to help veterans.

I will say this to the panel. We get around the community. People talk to us. We know the needs that are out there. We know the

constraints that everybody is under. I haven’t talked to a Member

of Congress about this bill who hasn’t been enthusiastic about

doing something and a little frustrated about what hasn’t been

done in the past. I think that actually shows us to a pretty good

advantage.

Anyway, we will be back. Everybody hurry back because we want

to do this panel and then another panel and then the markup.

Please don’t forgot we have a markup on this later.

[Recess.]

Chairman TALENT. All right. If we could reconvene the hearing,

we will continue with this panel. We do have another and then a

markup, but we appreciate the Members’ interest and their questions. Next up, I believe, is Mr. Davis. You are next.

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman TALENT. We will let the witnesses settle in here. Mr.

Lopez, if we could have your attendance, thank you. Actually, John,

we need you to sit down at the witness table.

Mr. LOPEZ. I thought you were discharging me.

Chairman TALENT. No, not at all. We want you. We have voted

and come back and Mr. Davis is recognized for questions.

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and let me also

thank the witnesses for coming. But I also want to compliment you

and the Members of this Committee especially all of those who

have signed on to this particular piece of legislation.

I think it is an excellent attempt to reach out to veterans and

provide opportunities for them to move into the mainstream, especially by establishing their own businesses. I represent a district

that has a large number of veterans with service-connected illnesses. As a matter of fact, my district is one of only two in the

country that has three veterans administration hospitals, all in my

congressional district.

That is the Hines V.A. Hospital, Westside and Lakeside, all connected with three major medical schools as well. So we do have a

26

great deal of veterans advocacy in our community and a number

of very active veterans organizations and groups. I must confess

that we have been able to have the Small Business Administration

be actively involved as well.

The question that I have is for Ms. Callaway. Had this legislation been in effect at the time that you started your business and

as you continued to develop it, how do you think it would have

been able to help you?

Ms. CALLAWAY. I think if I was educated prior to leaving the

service, it would have been available to me and had the opportunity to access that type of information, I would have been able

to go forward a lot easier knowing who I could contact, who would

back me up and support, especially with the moving around and

deploying so much, gaining stability in one certain area.

I am from Ohio, and I settled in Virginia. I chose to settle in Virginia and retire in Virginia because that is where I wanted to be

at the time. Who do I get to back me in the State of Virginia? If

this had been in place, I would be able to go to them. Just like if

you need something from the VA, you go to the VA. If you need

something from the SBA, I should be able to go to the SBA and

get the backing from them no matter what State I was in. Or if

I was getting out overseas, I should be able to access them from

anywhere. Had it been available and had I been educated prior to

getting out I probably would have been successful. And like I did

get a business degree, but actually finding out about what was

available to me as a veteran and support was not available.

Mr. DAVIS. I certainly hope there would be no other persons who

would find themselves in the same situation and especially as we

pass this legislation. I don’t have any other questions, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to be associated with the comments made by

Mr. Pascrell and also I have an opening statement that I would

like to submit for the record.

I have no further questions. I thank you very much.

[Mr. Davis’ statement may be found in the appendix.]

Mr. BARTLETT [presiding]. Without objection.

The record will be held open for several days for statements from

the committee, and there may also be questions from the committee to the panelists.

We will hold the record open for several days so that they can

be put in place and you will have a chance to give your answer.

Mrs. Napolitano is next.

Ms. NAPOLITANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am very happy to

see such a wonderful panel here before us testifying as to the needs

of the veteran community and to the shortcomings of our agencies.

I am not just saying about SBA.

One of the things that we have learned in the many years that

I have worked with my veterans is that sometimes they want to

be able to reach out, but for some reason they have no way of

knowing where to go or how to access information, not necessarily

because their American Legion and their VFW hall doesn’t provide

it for them, but there is no agency that really does any outreach

to veterans regardless of the issues whether it is health or business

or anything else, education being another one.

27

In my area, I find that my veterans constitute a large segment

of my community. They are very vocal. However, I would suggest

and maybe challenge some of the veterans organizations to begin

working together for real representation of veterans. Because once

we leave here and the SBA or any other agency says, okay, that

is it until the next time it comes up before a hearing, I think that

we need to begin to work as one and put pressure on the agencies

that are not fulfilling their obligation. That is very evident in many

of the Federal agency’s procurement capability for the MBDA and

et cetera.

I am glad that you are here voicing the concern of private organizations of veterans because I think we need to be able to remind

ourselves and remind those of us who may have not been involved

in any conflict but who have members of the family that are veterans among us, and remember that they put their lives on the

line. And we tend to forget, forget that they need our help or tend

to forget that we as a society owe them and we must not forget our

debt to them.

At this point part of what we have done in California and Mr.

Lopez is well aware of that is trying to focus back to the need of

not only the male veterans, but the female veterans simply because

they are forgotten. Many of those women have no concept that they

are veterans because they were given no mustering out information

and there is no outreach. So we—I am very happy that you are

here. I applaud the Chairman and the Ranking—Nydia

Vela ́zquez—Democratic person of this Committee because it is one

of the issues that we talk about a lot. And we are not moving forward.

As it was put before us 20 years ago, there was an inability for

the SBA to deliver the information. It is high time that we make

that a priority. I also would like to comment that I feel that the

amount that is being allocated is a piddling sum. I tell you very

frankly that we need to do more for our veterans than provide

token funding for something that they have earned in their years

of service.

To kind of wrap this up, I would certainly like to make sure that

we maybe dialogue over formulating a joint and concerted effort to

be able to continue, not just the dialogue but the pressure on Congress and on the agencies, especially SBA, to get the job done.

Thank you very much.

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you very much for your support. Mrs.

Christian-Christensen.

Ms. CHRISTIAN-CHRISTENSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I too

want to welcome our witnesses and apologize for being late. It does

not speak against the importance that I place on this piece of legislation and I want to thank and commend our Chairman for putting

forth this legislation that is so important. We across this country

owe a debt to our veterans, and we are in default on that debt.

This is just one small installment that we can make as we begin

to address, as my colleague just said, many of the issues across

board that we have not been addressing on behalf of our veterans.

Of course, the disabled veterans present even more unique challenges that we have even further defaulted on. So I am pleased to

28

be here to support this legislation and I really don’t have any questions at this time, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

[Ms. Christian-Christensen’s statement may be found in the appendix.]

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you very much for your statements of support. Ms. Tubbs Jones.

Ms. TUBBS JONES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Like my colleague,

Donna Christian-Christensen, I am here a little, little late. I am a

freshman Member of Congress. I have learned that you cannot be

in more than one place at one time so I have given up trying to

do it. I would love to have a clone.

I have a significant veterans population in the City of Cleveland

and the surrounding areas and support anything that we can do to

support veterans here in Washington or back in the district. So

again I would like to compliment our Chairman for placing this bill

on the agenda before us. Thank each of you for coming and to testify. We don’t mean to denigrate your comments at all, and I promise I will read them and take them to heart as we move through

this process.

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I yield the balance of my

time.

Mr. BARTLETT. That you very much. Ms. Millender-McDonald.

Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good

morning to all of you. I again apologize for the tremendous scheduling that we have and my inability to hear all of your testimony.

I have read some of it with great interest. Let me just speak on

the fact that our veterans, of course, have fought in our wars

throughout the country and throughout the world and here you are

trying to fight for just a piddling 5 percent in terms of small business support for businesses. I applaud you for your efforts in coming to us. We should have been with you early on years ago.

Here we are now trying to remedy and repair those inequities

that we see. I am absolutely supportive of this bill and what it will

do to begin the process of your buying into the small business administration contracts and all other contracts. I hope this is just

the beginning of one agency starting this process and other agencies to follow. All agencies should address this issue of inequity

with reference to our veterans and give you the type of support and

the type of contracts, albeit sub or prime contracts, whatever you

qualify for, to have that opportunity so you, too, can put your stake

in the small business claims that are out there.

I applaud you for coming this morning. I applaud the Chairman

for his vision to provide this piece of legislation for all of us to embrace.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you very much for your statements of support. I want to thank the members of the panel. Thank you very

much for your very clear statements of need in this area and thank

you for being with us and we will now excuse you and ask our next

witnesses—Mr. Lopez, you have a question?

Mr. LOPEZ. Thank you. Thank you for your attention and for

your consideration.

29

Mr. BARTLETT. You are more than welcome. Thank you, sir. It is

our pleasure. We will excuse you and impanel our next witnesses.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. We have two members who would like to

make statements of introduction for one of our witnesses. One of

those is Mr. Sessions. I would ask him if he could join us on the

dais. The other is Mr. Gonzales. We are very pleased to have these

three witness in our last panel with us, Mr. Elmore, Mr. Foster,

and Mr. White. Let’s begin now with some statements of introduction by, first of all, the visitor to our committee, Mr. Sessions.

Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for allowing me

to be here. This is my first opportunity to be before this Committee, and I appreciate that opportunity. I would also note that

Congressman Charlie Gonzalez from San Antonio, Texas, will be

making some remarks concerning Mr. Charles Foster, and I wanted

to lead that. I want to thank you for allowing me the opportunity.

Mr. Charles Foster, who is today to give testimony before this

committee, is a gentleman who is group president for SBC, Southwestern Bell Corporation, from San Antonio, Texas. Mr. Foster is

one of my former bosses at Southwestern Bell Corporation. He is

a friend and a mentor. He speaks not only with the SBC hat on

today as the group president, but he is also a man who has a distinguished career, a military career.

Mr. Foster served in the United States Army as a paratrooper.

He was a young man who worked and fought on behalf of our country, served our country, and his testimony that he is to give today,

Mr. Chairman, I would submit to you would come from not only as

an executive from one of the largest corporations of America, but

also as a man in his youth and throughout his life has dedicated

himself to the veterans of this country.

It is with great honor and distinction that I have that opportunity. I thank the committee for its opportunity to hear from me

and Mr. Foster.

Mr. BARTLETT. Without objection, your comments will be included in the record. Thank you very much. Mr. Gonzalez.

Mr. GONZALEZ. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It is an

honor and a privilege to welcome Mr. Foster here. Let me tell you

how happy San Antonio was when SBC decided to headquarter in

our city. It has been a celebration that has not been rivaled since

but will be shortly when the Spurs win the championship.

It comes as no surprise that we have a representative from SBC.

I need to tell you what wonderful corporate citizens they are in San

Antonio and wherever they may be situated if you are lucky

enough to have them in your district. They show a great sensitivity

to the needs of the city. They always are there. They volunteer. But

they don’t wait. They take the initiative. That is why I say—and

I will repeat—it comes as no surprise that we have Mr. Foster here

to tell you what SBC has been doing in the way of their own initiative and their own outreach. We all believe, I truly believe, and I

can’t speak for everyone here today, but the best ideas on how to

serve the needs of the small businessmen and women really reside,

those ideas reside in our individual districts in those neighborhoods

and in our businesses.

30

With that again, it is with great pleasure that I introduce and

welcome Mr. Charles Foster.

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you very much. And now we will move—

Mr. Davis.

Mr. DAVIS. Could I just ask one question. Is this the group that

is merging with Ameritech and getting ready to move into Chicago?

It is a great opportunity to meet you. We look forward to seeing

you when you get to Chicago.

Mr. FOSTER. Thank you very much. We look forward to being

there.

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you, Mr. Davis. We will move now to the

testimony of our witnesses. First is Mr. Will Elmore, St. Louis,

Missouri, Data Force Associates. Mr. Elmore.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM ELMORE, ST. LOUIS, MO, DATA

FORCE ASSOCIATES

Mr. ELMORE. Thank you, sir. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and

other Members of the Committee. It is a great honor for me to appear before you this morning to provide my comments. I would like

to submit my written comments for the record and add a couple of

extraneous comments as well.

Regarding the testimony we heard from Ms. Myers earlier today,

there were a couple of errors that I wanted to correct. There are

about 26 million veterans, not 24 million, so some of the data at

the agency is even further incorrect. And veterans own somewhere

between 16 and 20 percent of small businesses in this country, not

4.5 percent. I am not sure where that number came from, but I was

surprised by it.

You all have my statement and Chairman Bartlett, I have testified to you before so you know that I can go on for days. Unfortunately, I have had to go on for years about this issue. For those

who had expressed interest in the idea of outreach programs for

veterans, I was the director of a community-based outreach program in St. Louis for veterans for more than 20 years.

It was not a government program. It was a program that the veterans themselves created and through that small business, and

self-employment opportunity was always a core service that we provided. I think I just want to comment at least in general now about

what I view as the wisdom of this legislation. I have been a volunteer advocate in and out of this town since the 1970s in regards

to veterans and their families.

I have never seen a piece of legislation nor been privileged to be

part of a process that creates legislation that invests in veterans

the way that this bill will. I want to compliment the Chairman and

the Committee and all of the sponsors, all of the cosponsors, and

I will compliment everybody when we pass this. Because for the

first time in my adult life, we are actually going to treat their veterans and their families with respect and honor by investing in

them instead of just treating them as people that should be

shunned aside to go to what is increasingly a dysfunctional Department of Veterans Affairs.

Now, we are not here for that reason, but that is my basic view.

Bluntly, special consideration which has been on the books for the

SBA since the 1970s doesn’t exist. We know that. There is no more

31

reason to talk about that. The strength of this legislation is that

it puts the responsibility squarely on the veterans themselves, on

Congress as well through the yearly reporting, and on the private

sector, the veterans in the business community and those that are

interested in working with and supporting veterans.

For that, there is great wisdom in this legislation. I think we understand as veterans that we can do for ourselves more and better

than anyone else can ever do for us. We would expect no more and

expect no less. I think the fact that the focus of this legislation is

that we treat those veterans with resources to do their job for

themselves, their families, and their community is a great change.

I hope that is what this turns into, a great change in how we deal

with veterans across the board.

We have heard comments from other Committee Members this

morning about the inadequacy of the various pieces of the Federal

sector and how it interacts with veterans. I can’t name a single

area of the Federal sector where veterans are advantaged because

of their veteran status. I can think of countless areas where they

are disadvantaged based on the fact that they served our country.

That is shameful.

So I want to congratulate this committee on this legislation and

urge you to please pass this. I have been coming to this town for

20 years talking about this. I am getting a little past my prime as

well. It is time that we enable these men and women, as we have

done in the past, to do for themselves what only they can do best.

Thank you and I would welcome any questions or comments.

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you very much for your testimony, Mr.

Elmore. It is not about time, it is past time that we did something.

Thank you for your testimony.

Without objection the testimony of all of our witnesses, their

written testimony, will be made a part of the record. Thaw very

much for summarizing. You will have ample opportunity during the

question and answer period to amplify on your statement.

[Mr. Elmore’s statement may be found in the appendix.]

Mr. BARTLETT. Now, Mr. Charles Foster, president of SBC Telecommunications. Thank you for your joining us.

STATEMENT OF CHARLES FOSTER, PRESIDENT, SBC

TELECOMMUNICATIONS, SAN ANTONIO, TX

Mr. FOSTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the

Committee for this opportunity to testify on the Veterans Entrepreneurship and Small Business Development Act of 1999. SBC is one

of the leading telecommunications companies in the world. We have

more than 130,000 employees. We have a market capitalization of

more than $100 billion. We have interests in local long distance,

wireless, and data services worldwide. Our subsidiaries include

Southwestern Bell, Pacific Bell, Southern New England, and Cellular One. We are also one of the top 10 Internet companies in the

United States.

SBC has valued the contributions of veterans for a long time.

Just last month, in fact, SBC was recognized by the Association for

Service-disabled Veterans, who you had heard from earlier, as

America’s leading company in promoting disabled veteran enterprises.

32

SBC spends more than a billion dollars annually with minority-, women-, and disabled-owned businesses, which is more than

20 percent of all of the goods and services that we purchased last

year. Our Pacific Bell subsidiary leads the industry with 30 percent

of our total purchasing going to diversity suppliers, and more than

40 million of that went to the disabled-veterans businesses.

As a result of our experience, Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to

speak here today on behalf of my company and to offer SBC’s

strongest support for this legislation. With the high tech nature of

today’s military, the average soldier, sailor, airman, marine or

coast guardsman has far more marketable skills than their predecessors ever did. They are far more educated than their predecessors were.

They represent an abundant pool of talent and expertise for companies both large and small. American businesses need their skills

and talents more than ever. Yet there is no adequate vehicle in

place to align the skills of the American veteran, and especially the

disabled veteran, with the rapidly evolving needs of American business.

The National Veterans Business Development Corporation proposed in this legislation will change that. Along with the other provisions of this bill, we believe that it stands to dramatically enhance opportunities for veterans and afford companies like SBC

much greater access to the expertise that these veterans offer.

Mr. Chairman, America has always had a sacred bond with its

veterans, an unwritten pact that if you risk life and limb by going

to war for America, then America has the duty to make sure that

you have every opportunity to prosper from the peace. Through veterans programs, millions of Americans have been given a chance to

get started on that path to prosperity.

I might add, Mr. Chairman, I was one of them. I frankly would

not be here speaking today without that support. When I left the

Army as a corporal in the mid-1950s, I took advantage of the GI

Bill which not only opened doors of opportunities for me but opened

for millions of others who were in uniform.

That same spirit is alive and well in this legislation. Like the GI

Bill, it does far more than simply recognize and honor the contributions that veterans have made. It rewards them for their sacrifices

in a very tangible way by giving them opportunities to contribute

their skills and talents where they are needed the most.

Disabled-veteran enterprises already add a great deal of value to

SBC, and we are excited about the potential of this bill to encourage more of those veterans’ businesses. We do have one concern,

though, regarding procurement targets for DVBEs. SBC is, of

course, not in a position to determine whether the 5 percent procurement goal outlined in the bill is a fair and reasonable target

for the Federal Government. I can only speak for SBC.

After a great deal of analysis and discussion of this issue, we

have established an internal goal of 11⁄2 per cent for the DVBE procurement. To be very candid, our studies in California show there

would simply not be enough qualified firms out there in the beginning capable of filling a 5 percent target.

That is simply the reality. Again, speaking only in terms of

SBC’s strategic sourcing requirements. Again, while the 5 percent

33

figure may be reasonable for other entities and perhaps the Federal

Government, it is certainly well above what SBC could deliver on

initially. And I suspect a good many other companies would feel

the same way. Of course, with this legislation many more disabled

veteran businesses will likely emerge and broaden the field of potential suppliers.

I would like to finish today right back where I started by offering

SBC’s strong support for this outstanding legislation that would do

much for America’s veterans. Mr. Chairman, we can never adequately repay America’s veterans, especially our disabled veterans,

for the sacrifices they have made for this country. Contributions

that were made in sweat and blood cannot be paid, repaid in dollars and cents. The only thing we can do is to do right by them.

And doing right by them means making sure they and their families have every opportunity to live productive, meaningful lives. We

believe this legislation will take us one step closer to delivering on

that commitment while at the same time promoting our Nation’s

economic growth. Mr. Chairman, I thank you very much for this

opportunity.

Chairman TALENT. Thank you, Mr. Foster. We appreciate very

much your efforts and the efforts of SBC Communications on behalf of veterans and your patience in coming and waiting here.

[Mr. Foster’s statement may be found in the appendix.]

Chairman TALENT. I am sorry I was gone and I want to thank

Mr. Bartlett for chairing the hearing. I have another markup going

on at the same time. That is how the Congress works or doesn’t

work as the case may be. I am glad to be back. Mr. Steve White

of Dover, New Hampshire, of the White & Company. Mr. White.

STATEMENT OF STEVE WHITE, WHITE & CO., DOVER, NH

Mr. WHITE. Thank you very much for this opportunity to speak

with you. After this morning, I am also glad to get a little closer

to the ice water. It is a nice chance to be here. My background is—

what brings me to here, I guess, is that I was a Vietnam combat

vet. I was a banker. I even did a 3–year stint with the SBA in New

Hampshire as a management assistance officer where I started

three or four SCORE chapters.

I started a business, a publishing business, that provided materials to help small businesses better manage themselves. I sold

that and started another business where I work mainly with banks

providing them with small business development programs. But my

most rewarding experience was when I started and managed an

entrepreneurial training for veterans in Manhattan under the

guise of the veterans leadership program.

This was a start-up situation, we had very limited funding, and

were constantly begging for dollars to try to make things happen.

We got some funding from the City of New York through a very

creative program and also with the SBA in Washington providing

some funding for this program which lasted for 3 years. During

that period of time, I learned a great deal about veterans and veterans issues and had an immense amount of support and met some

great veteran business owners.

They were very interested in supporting anything that we could

do to help other veteran business owners and vets get started and

34

better manage their business. This bill goes a long way to help support that same feeling. We hosted a number of networking events

with veteran business owners which the banks such as Chase and

Chemical and Citibank sponsored. Business cards were flying. People did business. The banks saw the benefit of this. It made my

eyes open up as a marketing person to see that this is a real marketing opportunity.

It is a real market niche. We saw vets that would do anything

they could to help other people. At these networking events, you

would have people say what can I do for you, as opposed to most

networking events they would say, what can you do for me or buy

my stuff. We came to call this an invisible quality among vets that

we called the vet connection. I think that you will find, if you pass

this legislation, by having it as a private group without Federal

employees in the middle of it where veterans are managing this,

the support will be overwhelming.

I feel there is no problem at all in saying that this will be a selfsufficient and self-funding operation. Because of the microcosm of

what we did in New York, basically you are looking at doing an expansion of this so I know it works. We did it, supported it. I have

worked for years in trying to organize veterans into a veteran’s

business network which would be a nationwide association of veteran business owners.

Banks across the country have told me of the interest in that

from a market point of view. They can see this as a way of building

a business. I would suggest that you don’t beat yourselves up on

what you haven’t done for veterans in the past and think about

this as an opportunity for an economic investment in a great bunch

of people with over—whatever the numbers are, at least 4 million

veteran business owners. That has got an awful lot of economic

clout.

The type of things that Mr. Foster is doing here is just an example of a company saying that they want to work with veterans, but

they are also doing it for economic reasons. No reason not to. I was

contacted during this time years ago by a group that I thought was

a prank phone call, but it turned out to not be the case, asking me

to help them do business planning training in Poland. I said, what

is the funding? They said, well, it is called the Polish American Enterprise Fund.

Congress had allocated $250 million because they thought it was

going to be a real economic enterprise bill where they could train

people, as it was becoming more democratized, to train people how

to run their own businesses and work. I think that we are looking

at $12 million for this veteran’s enterprise fund possibly, we could

call it. Maybe if we put it in those kinds of terms, if Congress in

their wisdom saw that Poland was worth $250 million to help build

a business, why don’t we think about veterans and their enterprise? I think we will find that we get a far more economic impact

out of those dollars.

Thank you very much for allowing me to speak my little piece.

But I am telling you that if you provide the money and let the veterans do it, it will work. Thank you.

[Mr. White’s statement may be found in the appendix.]

35

Chairman TALENT. I thank the witnesses. I am going to defer my

questions due to the fact that we do have a markup after this, but

I do want the Members to have a chance.

First on the list on the Democratic side is Mr. Gonzalez.

Mr. GONZALEZ. No questions.

Chairman TALENT. Mr. Bartlett.

Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If we had any doubts

before this hearing as to the value of our legislation, those doubts

have been thoroughly dispelled by the hearing. I want to thank all

of our witnesses and thank you for holding the hearing. Let’s hope

that this moves very quickly through the Congress. Thank you.

Chairman TALENT. Mr. Davis.

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Foster, let me just

again commend you and your company for its strong record of involvement with minority- and women-owned businesses. You raised

some concerns in relationship to the 5 percent goal. My question

is, in your own company, have you found that advocacy and ombudsman type programs like the one that we are really talking

about were effective in helping your company move to the point

where it developed this strong record?

I really do think that you have a strong—one of the strongest

that I have actually seen. I have been involved with minority- and

women-owned business development efforts for many, many years.

I think that you have developed one of the more outstanding

records in the country. Does this type group that this legislation

really creates assist your company in developing its approach to

these kinds of business entities?

Mr. FOSTER. Congressman, one word. Absolutely.

Mr. DAVIS. So then this legislation should assist other companies

to do the same thing as it would relate to veterans and our effort

to really assist veterans to move into the mainstream?

Mr. FOSTER. Again, I can only speak for SBC, but the answer to

your question is yes. It is good for our company and I think it is

good for any other nature of business.

Mr. DAVIS. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. Thank

you very much.

Chairman TALENT. Mr. LoBiondo. Mrs. Napolitano.

Ms. NAPOLITANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the questions that was put to the prior panel was do you see anything lacking in this piece of legislation that might help address any loop

holes or anything besides the funding of this? If you heard me before, I think the funding is very inadequate, totally inadequate. But

is there anything that the two or three of you felt might be included or could be included to help make this be a more viable bill

for veterans?

Mr. ELMORE. If I might, there is a lot in here. Again, I think it

puts it in the veteran’s markets. If there are gaps in areas that we

haven’t addressed in the body of the legislation, I think the market

will drive how we get to that down the road.

I do have one concern, and I am not sure if it is legitimate concern or not. But to vest the appointing authority in just the President for the nine initial board members for the national corporation

is a little troubling for me. It is so critical that we have the right

people on that initial board of directors. I would prefer to see a

36

strengthening that the Chairman of the Committees and the Ranking Members of those Committees play in that appointment.

The way that it reads to me is there is a list submitted to the

President, and the President picks someone from that list. I just

hope that we don’t pick people only for political purposes, that we,

in fact, pick people who are there because they are grounded in

this issue and who are a part of the process that got us it to this

point and who bring a knowledge and passion. I think to quote a

comment the Chairman made to me in private once, a savvy to this

that is necessary to get this corporation off on the right foot.

Ms. NAPOLITANO. Would you suggest that these people be veterans involved in the issue?

Mr. ELMORE. I don’t know veterans involved as much—I thought

to myself on the plane as I came up here that I really look forward

to appearing before this Committee in the future and talk only

about small business issues.

We should have been there a long time ago. So I think there are

people in the private sector who none of us have identified at this

point who might be wonderful assets for a board like that. So I

don’t know that everyone needs to be, but I think some need to

come from the process that led to the creation of this legislative initiative.

Ms. NAPOLITANO. Thank you. One of the questions, and this is

to Mr. Foster, in reducing the cap from 5 to 1.5, Mr. Foster, do you

think—well, let me rephrase that.

I see the point that you made on that. However, do you think

that our agencies’ inability to reach that, and I am talking about

any Federal agency that puts out the contracting and procurement,

that they may not have done enough outreach or they don’t market

it enough or don’t put it out where it can be accessed by veterans?

Mr. FOSTER. I can only speak with our own experience. The first

thing we had to do was identify who the groups were that could

produce the kinds of services or goods that we needed. We have

been at this I think at least in Pacific Bell since 1993. We are exceeding the 11⁄2 percent goal that we set for ourselves in California

now.

But in starting out in the other States like Texas, Oklahoma,

and Missouri, and so forth, in the early years you would have trouble. We had trouble, identifying and certifying who these folks were

that could do the kinds of things that we needed to have. I think

5 percent, once the program is in and established, you have got

some years of outreach. You know where to go to, where the groups

are, the veterans associations who can lead you to the business

people that can do what you need—I don’t think—I can’t get too

excited about 5 percent down the road, but I can get nervous about

5 percent in the early stages. We would hate to see legislation that

mandated it that said, you will reach a 5 percent goal absolutely

positively each year.

That would be very difficult. It would probably hurt the purpose

of the bill to begin with. But that is kind of where we are at. It

has worked for us so far. Our goal is to get beyond the 11⁄2.

Ms. NAPOLITANO. So you could see in the beginning a very low

percentage and then an increase.

37

Mr. FOSTER. I see in the beginning you get some kind of threshold. I am sensitive to what these folks like Mr. Lopez and others

have been doing for the last 20 years, trying to get something

through Congress. And the last thing I want to do is come up here

and say something semi-negative that has the impact of saying,

well, we ought not to do it exactly that way.

Ms. NAPOLITANO. You testified about one point that is interesting, the certification. You said that you have trouble being able

to get some of the veterans organizations——

Mr. FOSTER. I said in the early stages in identifying who——

Ms. NAPOLITANO. What made that change?

Mr. FOSTER. First of all, outreach. People knowing that our corporation was interested in doing business.

Ms. NAPOLITANO. You had your own program?

Mr. FOSTER. We had our own program. We had people in place

who went out and looked for—for example, in the minority business

side, the women’s business side getting much more outreach, getting with groups that spoke for these folks that could spread the

word and network. And just go get out there and scratching the

dirt until you can find all of the people that do all the kind of

things that you want done. In fact, in some cases actually assisting

individuals to go in business. We have done a lot of that. Given

them training, provided them with—tell them where they could go

to get the expertise to start a business.

Ms. NAPOLITANO. Thank you very much. You have answered my

questions very well.

Chairman TALENT. Mrs. Kelly.

Mrs. KELLY. I have no questions.

Chairman TALENT. Mrs. Christian-Christensen.

Ms. CHRISTIAN-CHRISTENSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don’t

have a question. I just wanted to say that I know from my own,

the veterans in my own district, the frustration that you voiced,

Mr. Elmore. And I believe you were with us last Congress when

Chairman Bartlett and Chairman Talent held a hearing to review

what SBA had been doing with regards to helping our veterans

into getting into business and expanding our businesses. I just

wanted to suggest that perhaps being here today should be a sign

of hope in that we are moving ahead because now we have legislation that will specifically address some of the issues that had not

been addressed before. I want to again just thank our Chairman

for introducing that legislation.

Chairman TALENT. I thank the gentlelady for her comments. Mr.

Thune.

Mr. THUNE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don’t have any questions either. I want to credit the panelists for their excellent testimony and for the work that they do and to say that I think we

have a powerful resource in our veteran community; a tremendous

amount of potential just waiting to contribute.

I think this legislation rightfully gives that priority the attention

that it deserves and highlights the need for economic development

in our veteran community. Certainly these are individuals who understand the work ethic and I think we just need to open the door

and provide them access to the resources that will allow them to

tap the potential; this is something that I think is very much in

38

our country’s best interest. I believe that we have a responsibility

and obligation as well to people who have contributed a great deal

and sacrificed so much for our country. I just urge that we move

the legislation forward. Thank you.

Chairman TALENT. Mrs. Jones.

Ms. TUBBS JONES. Mr. Chairman, I am going to be brief with my

inquiry. But having had some experience in dealing with equal employment opportunity issues both in the veterans area but also

with regard to women and minorities, I think it is something good

to be said that you speakers here today are talking about issues

of affirmative action for veterans. I would ask you to have the

same, be the same spokesperson for affirmative action for minorities and women as well because it is good for the Nation when veterans, minorities, women, all have an opportunity at the economic

pie and that we don’t get jealous and say that there is not enough

of this pie for all of us to be at the table to deal with the issues.

I congratulate you and celebrate you for being here at the table.

But when it comes time to talk about minorities and women as

well, I am looking for you at this table as well. Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Chairman TALENT. Ms. Millender-McDonald.

Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.

I commend you for bringing this legislation to us. It is long overdue. I would like to commend all of the participants this morning

and certainly commend Mr. Foster for your sensitivity with reference to providing the type of entrances for minority- and womenowned businesses. Certainly we recognize that women-owned businesses are the fastest growing businesses in this country and indeed minority businesses as well.

They need that type of handout and handup from those of you

who are able to do that. We thank you all for your sensitivity to

minority businesses and women-owned businesses. I would like to

associate myself with Ms. Tubbs-Jones comments as well.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank you again. I would just like

to know what is the make-up of the board of directors and who

would determine the membership?

Chairman TALENT. I thank the gentlelady for raising that. Mr.

Elmore raised that point also. There will be nine members of the

board of directors. They will serve 6 year terms. The President appoints one and then the other eight are appointed from lists submitted by the Chairman and Ranking Members of the House and

Senate Veterans and Small Business Committees. I think this corporation is going to be tremendously successful. It is going to go on

and I think be self-sustaining.

We wanted it to be certain that it was absolutely bipartisan so

there is an equal number of appointees or lists submitted by Ranking Members and Chairmen regardless of who controls the Congress in future years. Then the President has the appointment on

his own. I would say to Mr. Elmore, we thought that was the best

compromise. The lists—I am certain that Ms. Vela ́zquez also says

this. I am going to submit if this bill passes and if I am the Chairman when it passes, I will submit lists of people all of whom have

strong records of experience with veterans issues. I imagine they

will be veterans. I can’t imagine me submitting—I can’t speak for

39

Ms. Vela ́zquez, but I am certain she will do also. Look at people

like Mr. Stump and Mr. Evans in the Senate. I have confidence we

will have a strong board.

Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I hope

you don’t leave, Governor, before this bill is passed.

Chairman TALENT. I thank the gentlelady.

Mr. ELMORE. If I might, since I am from Missouri, I hope he becomes our governor, but I want the bill passed first.

Chairman TALENT. I am overwhelmed. Mr. Udall is next. No

questions? Mr. Phelps. Do you have any questions?

Mr. PHELPS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just briefly. First, thank

you for holding the hearing. The information that has been provided is very helpful as a new Member. I just want to echo one concern that I know will be handled very well by the veteran’s corporation. We get hit a lot of times on the duplications. I am sure

between SBA and the veterans centers will be sensitive about that

to avoid duplications, but outside of that I hear nothing but good

and I think it is something that we all should be supporting. Thank

you.

Chairman TALENT. I thank Mr. Phelps, and we look forward to

his very important amendment on a portion of this bill that I am

certainly enthusiastic about and I am looking forward to that—his

amendment. Mr. Pascrell.

Mr. PASCRELL. No questions, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman TALENT. Mr. Moore.

Mr. MOORE. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for

having this.

Chairman TALENT. I want to thank the witnesses. I don’t want

the witnesses to believe that the lack of questions is because of a

lack of interest. I think the Members are wanting to get to this

markup. I could have asked more questions. I am not going to do

that. I thank all three of you for your presence and your work on

behalf of the veteran’s community. With that, I will adjourn this

hearing.

(41)

A P P E N D I X

42

43

44

45

46

47

48

49

50

51

52

53

54

55

56

57

58

59

60

61

62

63

64

65

66

67

68

69

70

71

72

73

74

75

76

77

78

79

80

81

82

83

84

85

86

87

88

89

90

91

92

93

94

95

96

97

98

99

100

101

102

103

104

105

106

107

108

109

110

111

112

113

114

115

116

117

118

119

120

121

122

123

124

125

126

127

128

129

130

131

132

133

134

135

136

137

138

139

140

141

142

143

144

145

146

147

148

149

150

151

152

153

154

155

156

157

158

159

160

161

162

163

164

165

166

167

168

169

170

171

172

173

174

175

176

177

178

179

180

181

182

183

184

185

186

187

188

189