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EXAMINING HOW TECHNOLOGY CAN PROMOTE 

CONSUMER FINANCIAL LITERACY 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS 

AND CONSUMER CREDIT 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

APRIL 30, 2014 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services 

Serial No. 113–76 

( 

(II) 

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES 

JEB HENSARLING, Texas, Chairman 

GARY G. MILLER, California, Vice Chairman 

SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama, Chairman 

Emeritus 

PETER T. KING, New York 

EDWARD R. ROYCE, California 

FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma 

SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia 

SCOTT GARRETT, New Jersey 

RANDY NEUGEBAUER, Texas 

PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina 

JOHN CAMPBELL, California 

MICHELE BACHMANN, Minnesota 

KEVIN McCARTHY, California 

STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico 

BILL POSEY, Florida 

MICHAEL G. FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania 

LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia 

BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri 

BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan 

SEAN P. DUFFY, Wisconsin 

ROBERT HURT, Virginia 

STEVE STIVERS, Ohio 

STEPHEN LEE FINCHER, Tennessee 

MARLIN A. STUTZMAN, Indiana 

MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina 

RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois 

DENNIS A. ROSS, Florida 

ROBERT PITTENGER, North Carolina 

ANN WAGNER, Missouri 

ANDY BARR, Kentucky 

TOM COTTON, Arkansas 

KEITH J. ROTHFUS, Pennsylvania 

MAXINE WATERS, California, Ranking 

Member 

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York 

NYDIA M. VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York 

BRAD SHERMAN, California 

GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York 

MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts 

RUBE ́ N HINOJOSA, Texas 

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri 

CAROLYN MCCARTHY, New York 

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts 

DAVID SCOTT, Georgia 

AL GREEN, Texas 

EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota 

ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado 

JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut 

GARY C. PETERS, Michigan 

JOHN C. CARNEY, JR., Delaware 

TERRI A. SEWELL, Alabama 

BILL FOSTER, Illinois 

DANIEL T. KILDEE, Michigan 

PATRICK MURPHY, Florida 

JOHN K. DELANEY, Maryland 

KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona 

JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio 

DENNY HECK, Washington 

SHANNON MCGAHN, Staff Director 

JAMES H. CLINGER, Chief Counsel 

(III) 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS AND CONSUMER CREDIT

SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Chairman 

SEAN P. DUFFY, Wisconsin, Vice Chairman 

SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama 

GARY G. MILLER, California 

PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina 

JOHN CAMPBELL, California 

KEVIN McCARTHY, California 

STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico 

BILL POSEY, Florida 

MICHAEL G. FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania 

LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia 

BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri 

MARLIN A. STUTZMAN, Indiana 

ROBERT PITTENGER, North Carolina 

ANDY BARR, Kentucky 

TOM COTTON, Arkansas 

KEITH J. ROTHFUS, Pennsylvania 

GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York, Ranking 

Member 

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York 

RUBE ́ N HINOJOSA, Texas 

CAROLYN MCCARTHY, New York 

DAVID SCOTT, Georgia 

AL GREEN, Texas 

KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota 

NYDIA M. VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York 

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts 

MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts 

PATRICK MURPHY, Florida 

JOHN K. DELANEY, Maryland 

DENNY HECK, Washington 

(V) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hearing held on: 

April 30, 2014 ................................................................................................... 1 

Appendix: 

April 30, 2014 ................................................................................................... 41 

WITNESSES 

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2014 

Cackley, Alicia Puente, Director, Financial Markets and Community Investment, U.S. Government Accountability Office ................................................... 5 

Kehoe, Stephen, Senior Vice President and Head of Global Financial Inclusion, Visa Inc. ....................................................................................................... 9 

Krajicek, Gabriel, Chief Executive Officer, BancVue ........................................... 7 

Lamb, Sabrina, Founding CEO, WorldofMoney.org ............................................. 13 

Saik, Barry, Senior Vice President and General Manager, Consumer Ecosystem Group, Intuit ............................................................................................ 11 

APPENDIX 

Prepared statements: 

Duffy, Hon. Sean .............................................................................................. 42 

Cackley, Alicia Puente ..................................................................................... 44 

Kehoe, Stephen ................................................................................................. 60 

Krajicek, Gabriel ............................................................................................... 68 

Lamb, Sabrina .................................................................................................. 77 

Saik, Barry ........................................................................................................ 80 

ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore: 

Written statement of the Center for American Racial Equality (CARE) ..... 85 

Joint written statement of the Credit Union National Association (CUNA) 

and the National Credit Union Foundation (NCUF) ................................. 86 

Written statement of the Property Casualty Insurers Association of 

America (PCI) ................................................................................................ 89 

Ellison, Hon. Keith: 

Written responses to questions submitted to Alicia Puente Cackley ........... 94 

Written responses to questions submitted to Stephen Kehoe ...................... 96 

Written responses to questions submitted to Gabriel Krajicek .................... 97 

Stivers, Hon. Steve: 

USA Today article entitled, ‘‘Financial literacy education has lasting impact,’’ dated April 8, 2014 ............................................................................. 98 

(1) 

EXAMINING HOW TECHNOLOGY 

CAN PROMOTE CONSUMER 

FINANCIAL LITERACY 

Wednesday, April 30, 2014 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS

AND CONSUMER CREDIT, 

COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES, 

Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:02 a.m., in room 

2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Shelley Moore Capito 

[chairwoman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

Members present: Representatives Capito, McHenry, Pearce, 

Posey, Luetkemeyer, Stutzman, Pittenger, Barr, Cotton; Meeks, 

Maloney, Hinojosa, McCarthy of New York, Scott, Green, Ellison, 

and Heck. 

Ex officio present: Representative Hensarling. 

Also present: Representative Stivers. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. The Subcommittee on Financial Institutions and Consumer Credit will come to order. Without objection, 

the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of the subcommittee at 

any time. 

I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening 

statement. 

One of the most important skills that a child can learn is how 

to properly manage their personal finances. Earlier this month, I 

had the privilege of visiting with high school students, business 

and economics students in Ripley, West Virginia. And then, I visited a third-grade class in Dunbar, West Virginia. We discussed the 

importance of making sound financial decisions, including the importance of differentiating wants from needs. 

These visits were a wonderful opportunity for me to better understand the challenges facing these students. I must admit, when 

I was watching the PowerPoint and listening to some of the hints 

on good personal financial management, there were a few violations I am doing myself, so we can all learn how to do better. 

Although financial literacy efforts are often focused on students, 

learning the life skills of financial management continues throughout adulthood. This morning’s hearing will serve as an opportunity 

for Members to learn more about the Federal Government’s financial literacy efforts and how they compare to new and innovative 

private sector solutions to promote greater financial literacy among 

students and adults alike. 

2 

In 2012, the GAO released a report that provided an overview of 

the Federal Government’s activities and programs to promote financial literacy. They found 13 different programs offered by 13 

different agencies, which spent about $31 million a year on financial literacy efforts in the year 2010. 

The report also found that there was significant overlap among 

the agencies, and recommended consolidation of the government’s 

efforts to promote financial literacy. Furthermore, the GAO found 

that there was no mechanism to evaluate the effectiveness of these 

programs. 

If we are going to be devoting Federal resources to financial literacy programs, we must ensure these dollars are invested properly 

and effectively, and I look forward to hearing from the GAO this 

morning about additional measures that we can take to ensure 

these goals are met. 

The rest of this morning’s panel will update Members on private 

sector efforts to promote financial literacy through technologybased programs. We will hear from three different private sector 

entities that have developed Web-based and mobile-based platforms 

for consumers to gain a better understanding of financial management. These tools, readily available to anyone with a mobile phone 

or a computer, are helping consumers gain a better understanding 

of personal finance, thus helping them make better financial decisions. 

Moving toward Web-based and mobile-based platforms to deliver 

financial literacy skills is essential as consumers become more reliant on mobile phones and smartphones. A recent Federal Reserve 

survey found that 87 percent of adults used a mobile phone, and 

of that population, 61 percent used smartphones. 

The same survey also found that consumers are becoming more 

comfortable with accessing financial services and payments 

through their mobile device. Again, I would put myself in that category. I am inching into that realm myself and really seeing the 

ease of use and the convenience and the accountability that it provides. 

As these trends continue, mobile apps can help consumers gain 

a better understanding of their finances. Apps can be updated to 

meet the evolving needs of consumers. As we will see today, private 

sector entities are developing apps ranging from educating children 

on the importance of saving to providing adults with a complete 

picture of their personal finances. 

I would like to thank each of our witnesses for joining us here 

this morning, and for their efforts to provide consumers with a better understanding of the impact of their financial decisions. 

I will now yield to the ranking member of the subcommittee, Mr. 

Meeks, for an opening statement. 

Mr. MEEKS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And I, too, am still 

learning certain tools myself and moving on. 

What I find is that by the time most children in this country finish middle school, we have a great deal of confidence that they are 

comfortable using computers and smartphones and social media 

and that they are tech-savvy. By the time they graduate from college, we have little confidence that they are equipped with the 

3 

basic financial skills and understanding to make the most important financial decisions they will face as responsible adults. 

We often talk admirably about the new information age and 

about how successful our Nation has been in coming up with technological innovations that have improved the lives of millions. 

Today, Americans hold in their smartphones more computer capability than the most powerful supercomputers of the 1960s and 

1970s that occupied entire basements of Federal buildings. 

Today, we are able to communicate instantaneously, see our pictures within seconds, and connect with family and friends remotely 

from anywhere on the globe in a matter of seconds. And today, we 

are able to trade in milliseconds and have market efficiency and 

price updates in ways that we never imagined. As technology has 

changed our way of living and our culture, our youth, from very 

early ages, naturally learn and become tech-savvy. 

But as much as we have seen transformational innovations in 

the technological area, major evolutions have also occurred in the 

financial markets. Our mortgage products are so much more complicated. Our banks are offering and engaging in increasingly more 

sophisticated transactions and operating in much-evolved financial 

markets with more complex financial products being offered to consumers every day, some of which caused some of the confusion and 

the Great Recession that we had and the banks falling down when 

we had the financial crisis. 

So unfortunately, unlike in the technological area, our kids today 

are not keeping up with the innovations and added complexities of 

the financial markets. We have a generation of teenagers and 

young adults who are increasingly computer-literate and financially 

illiterate. As much as they know about smartphones, and connecting on Facebook and Google, our kids are increasingly clueless 

about how financial markets work, how to manage their finances, 

and how to juggle the financial responsibilities of owing debt. 

In an economy and society where the biggest decisions that we 

make for economic prosperity and financial stability depend on 

making the right financial decisions, from investing in our education to buying a home or saving for retirement, we clearly need 

to do better to equip our youth with the proper skills they need in 

financial literacy. 

After all, how do you prepare for college when you don’t understand your student loan? How do you buy a home when you don’t 

understand the terms and obligation of your mortgage? And how 

do you invest or save for retirement when you are clueless about 

the financial tools and options at your disposal? 

We must do better, and instead of just saying, ‘‘Reading, writing, 

and arithmetic,’’ we should be saying, ‘‘Reading, writing, arithmetic, and financial literacy.’’ I believe it should also be part of the 

educational curriculum in every school so that we can make sure 

they have the tools that they need to be successful. 

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I yield back, and I look forward 

to hearing the testimony. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you. 

I recognize Mr. Pittenger for 2 minutes for an opening statement. 

4 

Mr. PITTENGER. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for yielding me 

the time today to discuss technology that can promote consumer financial literacy. 

According to the Federal Reserve, nearly 90 percent of American 

adults have a mobile phone. As access to mobile technology increases, so does the ability to conduct financial transactions and 

make more-informed financial decisions. 

These devices can be used as a tool to help Americans budget for 

the future and track their spending and savings habits through resources like having immediate access to bank account balances or 

depositing a check using a phone’s camera. At the same time, studies indicate that financial literacy in the United States is at relatively low levels, making it difficult for many Americans to take 

full advantage of these payment systems. 

While the Federal Government has devoted increased resources 

to financial literacy initiatives in recent years, its efforts have been 

marked by excessive duplication and lack of coordination across 

agencies. The results of those efforts have been mixed at best. 

For the past several years, the U.S. Government Accountability 

Office has examined the effectiveness and efficiency of Federal financial literacy programs and found that Congress and the Federal 

agencies have devoted more resources to financial literacy, which 

has resulted in overlap and duplication, but little evidence of improved financial literacy among Americans. There was also a 

RAND Corporation study back in 2009 entitled, ‘‘Federal Financial 

and Economic Literacy Education Programs’’ which found that Federal financial literacy activities are fragmented across multiple 

agencies, with more than 20 different Federal agencies providing 

over 50 programs related to financial literacy. 

It is my hope that this hearing will shed light on how to make 

the government far more efficient for the American taxpayer, but 

also how innovations in mobile technology can contribute to the financial literacy of Americans by empowering them to make more 

informed decisions in their daily and long-term financial planning. 

I yield back the balance of my time. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you. 

Mr. Green, for 2 minutes. 

Mr. GREEN. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 

I thank the ranking member, as well, and I would like to associate myself with his comments. 

I am honored to note that the Dodd-Frank Act established the 

Office of Financial Education within the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) to enhance financial literacy education. And 

I believe that this Act and this portion of it is going to be of great 

benefit to the American people. 

My hope is that as we move forward, the funding issue will become secondary, if not tertiary, to what we are trying to accomplish. It is important to make sure agencies are properly funded 

and it is important to make sure that funds are used efficaciously. 

But it is also important to make sure that agencies have the opportunity to fulfill their missions. 

Currently, as was indicated, the phone is one means by which 

persons can receive a good deal of information. I am proud to say 

that I have a phone. I am hopefully going to move to the latest 

5 

technology; I still have a BlackBerry, but I am blessed to have an 

iPad. Not everybody has an iPad, but most people have a phone. 

In fact, the Federal Reserve reported that 63 percent of 

unbanked consumers have a mobile phone. And the indication is 

that 91 percent of underbanked consumers have a mobile phone. It 

appears to me that this technology can become the methodology by 

which people can acquire a good deal of intelligence. 

I hope that we will be able to move forward such that we can 

completely explore how this collaborative effort between the CFPB 

and other agencies will be of great benefit to the American people. 

This is a good piece of legislation that we passed. We just now have 

to make sure that it works effectively. 

I yield back. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you. 

I think that concludes our opening statements, so I am going to 

go to the panel. 

And we welcome each of you. You are distinguished witnesses. 

Each of you will be recognized for 5 minutes to give an oral presentation of your testimony. And without objection, each of your 

written statements will be made a part of the record. 

I would ask each witness to pull the microphone as close to you 

as you can so that we can hear you properly. 

Our first witness is Ms. Alicia Cackley. She is the Director of Financial Markets and Community Investment at the U.S. Government Accountability Office. 

Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF ALICIA PUENTE CACKLEY, DIRECTOR, FINANCIAL MARKETS AND COMMUNITY INVESTMENT, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE 

Ms. CACKLEY. Thank you. 

Chairwoman Capito, Ranking Member Meeks, and members of 

the subcommittee, I am pleased to be here today to testify on the 

important topic of financial literacy. In my statement today, I will 

provide a brief review of Federal financial literacy programs, activities, and agency roles, as well as a progress update on recommendations we have made in this area in the past several years. 

In 2010, there were 16 significant Federal financial literacy programs or activities spread among 14 agencies, as well as 4 housing 

counseling programs spread among 3 Federal entities. Since that 

time, at least 4 of these programs have been discontinued or are 

no longer funded, and according to Treasury and CFPB, no new 

Federal programs have been added. 

With respect to agency roles, the CFPB became operational in 

2011 and has a primary role in addressing financial literacy, with 

offices that offer specific help to certain subpopulations such as 

servicemembers, older Americans, and students. 

In addition, the 22-member Financial Literacy and Education 

Commission coordinates among other Federal agencies and between Federal agencies and State, local, nonprofit, and private entities. The Commission is also charged with developing a national 

strategy for improving financial literacy and proposing means of 

eliminating overlap and duplication among Federal financial literacy activities. 

6 

Furthermore, since 2008, three Presidential advisory councils related to financial literacy have been tasked with creating partnerships among Federal, State, local, nonprofit, and private entities. 

In our reviews of Federal financial literacy efforts in recent 

years, we have observed important improvements or successes in 

four areas: coordination; partnerships; the CFPB’s role; and evaluation tools. And we have identified one major area in which we believe significant work remains to be done: determining the most effective and efficient allocation of Federal resources. 

In terms of the successes, overall, coordination on financial literacy has improved in recent years, largely due to the role of the 

Commission. The Commission has also built and promoted partnerships among Federal and non-Federal sectors, including academics, 

nonprofits, and other entities. 

As we recommended, the CFPB has taken steps to delineate and 

distinguish its role in Federal financial literacy efforts from that of 

other Federal agencies, and the CFPB and the Commission have 

taken steps to develop and disseminate a standard set of evaluation tools or benchmarks to help assess outcomes and effectiveness 

of financial literacy programs. 

Turning to our most recent recommendations, however, we continue to believe that further progress is needed in terms of ensuring that the most effective and efficient allocation of Federal literacy resources occurs. We noted in 2012 that the creation of the 

CFPB signaled an opportunity for reconsidering more broadly how 

Federal financial literacy efforts are organized. 

As a result, we recommended to Treasury and the CFPB that the 

Commission identify for Federal agencies and Congress options for 

consolidating Federal financial literacy efforts into the agencies 

and activities that are best suited or most effective. While Treasury 

and the CFPB both agreed with this recommendation, it has not 

yet been implemented. 

One natural vehicle for thinking strategically about how best to 

allocate resources is through the Commission’s national strategy. 

We recommended that in revising its national strategy, the Commission incorporate clear recommendations on the allocation of 

Federal financial literacy resources across programs and agencies. 

Again, Treasury and the CFPB agreed with our recommendation 

but have not yet implemented it. 

We acknowledge that the governance structure of the Commission presents challenges in addressing resource issues. It relies on 

the consensus of multiple agencies and has no independent budget 

or legal authority to compel members to act. 

However, the Commission can identify resource needs, make recommendations, and provide guidance on how Congress or Federal 

agencies might allocate scarce Federal resources. This will give policymakers the information they need to help ensure the most effective and efficient use of Federal funds. 

Chairwoman Capito, Ranking Member Meeks, and members of 

the subcommittee, this concludes my prepared statement. I would 

be happy to answer any questions. 

[The prepared tatement of Ms. Cackley can be found on page 44 

of the appendix.] 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you. 

7 

Our next witness is Mr. Gabriel Krajicek, chief executive officer 

of BancVue. 

Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF GABRIEL KRAJICEK, CHIEF EXECUTIVE 

OFFICER, BANCVUE 

Mr. KRAJICEK. Thank you. 

Chairwoman Capito, Ranking Member Meeks, and members of 

the subcommittee, it is an absolute honor to speak with you today, 

so thank you. 

My name is Gabe Krajicek. I am the CEO of a company called 

BancVue, and we serve about 700 community banks and credit 

unions across the country, providing products and services. 

As my written testimony shows, we have won numerous awards 

for our technology and we are widely regarded as one of our industry’s top innovators. And that is important because innovation and 

receiving financial advice from a trusted adviser are the key components of any good financial literacy program. 

Our mobile and Web-based products—MoneyIsland, PiggyBot, 

and Kasasa 360—are already changing lives. 

For BancVue, this mission on financial literacy began in 2009 

when I was teaching an afterschool class on entrepreneurship for 

middle schoolers. I worked hours and hours preparing lesson plans 

and activities and homework assignments for my young students, 

and the class culminated in our participation in the National Lemonade Day event, where students would design, market, and operate their own lemonade stand. 

I was really excited. The kids were excited—especially one girl 

who wanted to be the CEO of the lemonade stand and run the cash 

register. Unfortunately, I realized very quickly that she could not 

make proper change, even after I handed her my iPhone and let 

her use the calculator. 

If you could have seen her face when someone handed her a $10 

bill and she did not know what to do, you would have seen all of 

her enthusiasm vanish; you would have seen that self-confidence 

that she had sink into self-doubt; and her excitement was just 

gone. Managing money, handling money should not make any child 

feel that way. It shouldn’t make any adult feel that way. 

These financial literacy products that we offer are not big moneymakers for BancVue nor are they for our clients. But helping people with their financial future is vital to all of us. That is why 

MoneyIsland, PiggyBot, and Kasasa 360 are offered exclusively by 

community banks and credit unions, because these institutions understand that they provide trusted financial advice and help serve 

their communities one household, one parent, one child, one teacher, or one small business at a time so that people can achieve their 

financial goals. 

Please let me describe our products. 

MoneyIsland is a multilevel online video game that is designed 

for kids 8- to 14-years old. Collaborating with real students in real 

classrooms, we designed this to be an exciting adventure full of financial quests that teach eight key financial principles ranging 

from spending to saving, investing, as well as other topics. 

8 

I know personally how hard it is to build a lesson plan, so we 

wanted to make it easier for the teachers to teach these financial 

concepts. We have included 17 preplanned lessons that make it 

kind of a paint-by-numbers approach for the teacher to explain the 

concepts to the students. And that is very important because less 

than 30 percent of American teachers have ever taught financial 

literacy, and less than 20 percent of them feel prepared to do so. 

MoneyIsland is a turnkey solution and our curriculum meets both the Jump$tart Coalition for Personal Financial Literacy and 

the Common Core math standards. It is offered by more than 100 

institutions across the country in 2,000 classrooms, and 70,000 students have already completed their financial journeys. 

PiggyBot is a completely free mobile app that transforms the 

age-old practice of distributing kids’ allowances into an interactive 

collaboration between Mom, Dad, and each child. Using PiggyBot, 

the kids set goals, like a new bike or a new doll, and then the mom 

and dad place portions of their allowance into three distinct buckets: spending; saving; and sharing. This is important because it 

teaches kids the value of planning how they are going to spend 

their money as well as how money can be used and should be used 

for different purposes. 

It was launched just earlier this month—on April 1st—and it has 

already had an immediate impact. It has been the number one free 

app for children on the iTunes Store; we have had over 50,000 

downloads; and already, 9,000 kids have established and achieved 

their financial goals all across the country. 

But adults need help managing their money too, and they want 

that help from someone they trust. Ninety-three percent of community bank and credit union customers really trust their financial institutions. Compare that to the 66 percent of Americans who still 

feel flat-out anger toward the megabanks for their role in the recent economic crisis. Even 31 percent of megabank customers don’t 

trust their own bank. 

Plus, people want assistance from people they are familiar with, 

and that is why 75 percent of consumers say they want personal 

finance management (PFM) services from their primary financial 

institution, not from a third-party provider. That is why we 

launched Kasasa 360 earlier this month. 

Kasasa 360 is a very easy to use PFM that enables an individual 

to view, organize, budget, and manage all of their bank accounts, 

all their credit cards, their car loans, their mortgages, their investments, their retirement accounts—you name it, they can manage 

it all from their Web-based or mobile device. Kasasa 360 brings 

home our commitment to personal financial literacy offerings because it give parents hands-on control over how they manage their 

money, because, as financial guru Dave Ramsey would say, your 

children are watching you, and they will learn how to manage 

money based on how you do it. 

So what can Congress do to help? Well, as the pace and cost associated with compliance and regulatory oversight continues to 

grow, community banks and credit unions have no choice but to cut 

back on programs that don’t directly generate new revenue. If there 

was a way, without sacrificing safety and soundness, to reduce the 

regulatory burden on community financial institutions, more of 

9 

them would be able to provide services like these that offer financial literacy programs in every small town across America. 

Thank you for your time, and thank you very, very much for your 

commitment to financial literacy. BancVue will continue to build 

new, innovative products and services. Our community banks and 

credit unions will continue to provide the trusted advice that our 

fellow citizens need and deserve. And individually and collectively, 

we stand ready to help in any way we can. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Krajicek can be found on page 

68 of the appendix.] 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you very much. 

Our next witness is Mr. Stephen Kehoe, who is senior vice president and global head of financial inclusion at Visa. 

Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF STEPHEN KEHOE, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT 

AND HEAD OF GLOBAL FINANCIAL INCLUSION, VISA INC. 

Mr. KEHOE. Thank you, Chairwoman Capito, Ranking Member 

Meeks, and members of the subcommittee. My name is Stephen 

Kehoe, and I am head of global financial inclusion at Visa. Thank 

you for the invitation to be here today to discuss how technology 

can advance financial education. 

At Visa, we believe that the most valuable financial tool is not 

a product, but knowledge. Empowering consumers with knowledge 

and skills to make informed decisions about and manage money 

wisely not only improves their own financial situation, but contributes to strengthening the economy. 

Our CEO, Charlie Scharf, was recently appointed to the President’s Advisory Council on Financial Capability for Young Americans and is committed to sharing the work Visa is doing in this 

field. 

For over 50 years, Visa has enabled people, businesses, and governments everywhere to make and receive payments and connect 

to financial institutions. But providing consumers with access to 

quality financial services is just one piece of the puzzle. 

They need to know how to use these products wisely, thereby 

gaining the skills and confidence required to manage their money 

responsibly, because unless we empower them with this knowledge, 

we are doing them no favors. Lack of financial knowledge is the 

economic equivalent of handing a teenager the keys to a brand new 

car when he has never driven before. A wreck, financial or otherwise, is inevitable. 

The best way in which we can help that new account holder from 

crashing is to provide them with financial education long before 

they ever acquire a financial account. 

For nearly 2 decades, Visa has focused on developing financial 

education programs that teach individuals of all ages the basics of 

money management. This includes how to budget, save, and spend 

responsibly. In the last 6 years, we have reached more than 30 million people in 30 countries. 

In the United States, our flagship program, Practical Money 

Skills for Life, helps parents, teachers, students, and consumers 

learn the essentials of personal financial management. We know 

learning and, for that matter, teaching personal finance can be a 

10 

challenging endeavor. In order to ensure success in educating everyone from elementary school students to adults, it is important 

to focus on creating and developing tools which not only are effective and relevant, but are wholly engaging for consumers of all 

ages, and that is where technology can really make a difference. 

Our programs’ Web sites attract more than 49 million views per 

year and provide a range of free, innovative, and engaging resources such as classroom lesson plans, educational video games, 

smartphone apps, podcasts, and other tools. 

One of the most effective ways to make learning fun for children 

and young adults is through the use of games and entertainment. 

As part of Practical Money Skills, we have developed a suite of 

educational games online and for a variety of operating systems. 

These include games for younger kids such as Peter Pig’s Money 

Counter, which has been downloaded more than 50,000 times, and 

Money Metropolis for middle schoolers. 

But by far, our most popular and successful educational game is 

Financial Football. Working with the NFL and the NFL Players 

Association, we developed an interactive money management video 

game which has now been played more than 650,000 times online 

and continues to be downloaded from iTunes more than 50,000 

times a year. 

Since the launch of Financial Football in 2007, we have worked 

with State governments to distribute the game for free to schools 

in 44 States. In fact, Chairwoman Capito’s home State of West Virginia was the first to distribute Financial Football to every middle 

and high school through a public-private partnership. 

We were also pleased to partner with Ranking Member Meeks to 

hold a Financial Football event in February at the Super Bowl. As 

of today, we have partnered with governors, State treasurers, and 

other officials to distribute Financial Football to more than 28,000 

middle and high schools across the country. 

In addition to State governments, we have worked with over 300 

nonprofits, credit unions, community banks, and financial institutions to distribute our core literacy materials. We have found public-private partnerships to be an effective way to deliver financial 

education resources. 

Beyond games and educational entertainment resources, we have 

used technology platforms to create free, consumer-friendly 

smartphone apps to teach the basics of budgeting and savings. 

These come in all shapes and sizes, from planning for retirement 

to budgeting for the prom to figuring out how much the tooth fairy 

should leave under the pillow. 

Twenty years of experience, however, tells us there is no silver 

bullet. The solution to creating a more financially literate, healthy 

citizenry requires a multipronged approach and constant innovation. 

In conclusion, technology offers many opportunities to reach people through new channels, but the technology must appeal to the 

people we are trying to reach. To impact today’s young people, we 

must engage with them on their terms, which means on the technology platform of their choice, be it iPad, tablet, smartphone, or 

online. If we are serious about using technology to create a more 

11 

financially literate society, we must be wholly committed to creating apps, programs, and resources that consumers want to use. 

Thank you for the opportunity to highlight some of the work Visa 

is doing to improve financial literacy. We are ready to work with 

this committee to advance this important cause, and I look forward 

to answering any questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Kehoe can be found on page 60 

of the appendix.] 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Our next witness is Mr. Barry Saik, who 

is the senior vice president and general manager of Consumer Ecosystems Group with Intuit. 

Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF BARRY SAIK, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT AND 

GENERAL MANAGER, CONSUMER ECOSYSTEM GROUP, INTUIT 

Mr. SAIK. Thank you. 

Good morning, Chairwoman Capito, Ranking Member Meeks, 

and members of the subcommittee. My name is Barry Saik and I 

am the senior vice president and general manager for the Consumer Ecosystem Group at Intuit. The Consumer Ecosystem Group 

includes our Quicken and Mint products. 

I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today about how 

technology can promote consumer financial literacy. While I am 

here to talk today about Mint, I would like to first give you some 

brief background on Intuit. 

Intuit creates products and services with one mission in mind: 

We strive to improve people’s financial lives so profoundly they 

cannot imagine going back to the old way of doing things. At its 

heart, this is all about financial literacy. 

Over 30 years ago our founder, Scott Cook, sat at his kitchen 

table watching his wife struggle to balance the family checkbook. 

This inspired him to create Quicken. Today, we are one of the Nation’s leading providers of tax and financial management solutions 

for consumer and small businesses as well as the accountants who 

serve them. 

Through our flagship products and services, including 

QuickBooks, Quicken, Mint, and TurboTax, we remain committed 

to creating new and easier ways for consumers and small businesses to tackle life’s financial chores with the help of technology. 

We help our customers make and save money, comply with laws 

and regulations, and give them more time to live their lives and 

grow their small businesses. Most of the small businesses are family businesses, and these tools help them survive and thrive. 

Mint, the leading personal finance app, enables users to link 

their financial accounts and view all of their financial statements 

in one place. We currently have over 15 million registered customers in the United States and Canada, and they are connecting 

to a total of over 220 million bank accounts and other financial accounts at different institutions. 

Additionally, Mint provides the tools for easy and free money 

management. Goal-setting is a unique tool which helps our customers set financial targets that matter to them, such as paying 

down credit card debt or repaying your student loans. Mint tracks 

12 

an individual’s progress towards meeting their personal goals and 

sends regular reminders to keep you on track. 

We currently have nearly 3 million customers who have set up 

over 7 million goals in Mint, and thousands of these goals, including paying off debt, buying a house, and saving up for a trip have 

already been completed by many Mint customers who are currently 

saving over $1 billion a month towards their personal goals. 

Mobile has also been a focus of ours for a few years. It has allowed us to reach a mass audience because, as you guys have mentioned, smartphones are the device that most people use to access 

the Internet today. 

Currently about 70 percent of our users start on and use our mobile app, with about 40 percent of them continuing to be mobileonly customers. Our mobile customers use the app to check their 

account balances and review their transactions—things like checking recent spending and deposits—before making new purchases. 

With Mint, people don’t have to think about how much they 

spend or spend hours with a financial planner. We do the hard 

work of collecting and categorizing transactions for them. 

For about 80 percent of people, the upward trajectory of their 

spending was tempered after they joined Mint and began monitoring their transactions. And most people’s spending was further 

tempered if they used the information and set up budgets and 

goals. The biggest effects were observed in people’s spending on 

things like groceries, restaurants, and credit card financial charges. 

Mint also provides ways for you to save more money beyond just 

budgeting. Mint has found over an average of $1,700 in savings for 

nearly 5 million of our users. That is a total of over $10 billion in 

savings identified by our users. 

Through our partnerships, we evaluate customer accounts and 

identify alternatives for them—things like better insurance, or 

credit card options, or even refinancing loans—and we allow them 

to opt in for these options. Should the customer choose one of these 

options, they are directed to the partner sites to apply and sign up 

for that option. By identifying these alternatives, we take away the 

common inhibitor to finding these deals on their own, which is the 

time it takes to research and apply for them. 

Intuit’s mission is about empowering individuals. This shows up 

one customer at a time. I often hear from customers how Mint has 

helped them literally transform their lives for the better. 

Financial knowledge is a foundation on which individuals can 

build upon, but education alone is not enough. Our customer research has shown that simply providing people with knowledge 

about their credit card or student loan rates or how to save for retirement does not spur an individual to pay attention to these 

things in real life. 

Our research has shown that people learn by doing. It is one 

thing to learn about personal finances, but until you are faced with 

a real-world situation such as facing a large student loan debt 

when you are taking your first job and just setting out in life, that 

is when you really begin to practice what you have learned. And 

it is by going through that experience that you really learn about 

financial literacy. 

13 

Mint provides the tools to help people with these real-world situations and develop true financial literacy. 

Thank you again for the opportunity to testify, and I would be 

happy to answer any questions you may have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Saik can be found on page 80 of 

the appendix.] 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you. 

Our final witness is Ms. Sabrina Lamb, who is the CEO of 

WorldofMoney.org. 

Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF SABRINA LAMB, FOUNDING CEO, 

WORLDOFMONEY.ORG 

Ms. LAMB. Thank you. 

Chairwoman Capito, Ranking Member Meeks, and members of 

the subcommittee, on behalf of the WorldofMoney.org Youth Financial Education Institute, known as WorldofMoney.org, also represented here today by our youth board members Dante Stewart 

and Ciana Montero, thank you for the opportunity to testify at today’s hearing. 

About 10 years ago, a disturbing trend swept across America. 

Young people, often accompanied by adults, began forming long 

lines outside of retail stores, shoving and clawing to purchase another pricey item to make them feel, for the moment, better about 

themselves. These youth and adults seemed oblivious to the fact 

that they were jeopardizing their already fragile financial condition. 

In response to this crisis, the WorldofMoney.org, a New York 

City-based nonprofit organization, was founded in 2005. The organization was selected as a Promise Place by American’s Promise Alliance and by AOL Impact as one of 10 top social good organizations in America. 

WorldofMoney.org is acknowledged in President Obama’s Advisory Council on Financial Capability report. Our mission is to challenge the way youth ages 7 to 18 engage with and manage money 

by equipping them with a robust, 40-classroom-hour curriculum 

taught by Wall Street professionals so that they can plan to live 

a financially secure and philanthropic life. To date, the 

WorldofMoney.org has provided critical financial education to over 

3,000 youth and their parents. 

Over the years, unfortunately some parents have openly expressed their despair or their belief that living a financially secure 

life is not for them, that they are not worthy or able to experience 

generational wealth. Recently, one student said that he thought 

that the term ‘‘financial freedom’’ sounded like a scam. 

Other parents admitted how embarrassed they feel about the financial missteps that they have made. Alternatively, one mother 

defiantly shared, ‘‘What I don’t know, my child won’t know.’’ 

Hundreds of well-intentioned individuals, corporations, and nonprofit organizations provide excellent online and gaming financial 

education. However, of the 3,000 youth that we have served, 98 

percent of our economically diverse parents report that they have 

never felt compelled to search for or access this online information. 

14 

How can technology help stem the widening gulf of financially 

uneducated and vulnerable Americans? Disrupt and interrupt. 

Creative content interruptions beyond one’s primary Web site or 

application are warranted for at least three reasons: one, difficulties associated with motivating adults to pursue financial literacy; 

two, generational family history of being financially vulnerable; 

and three, predatory lenders’ and fringe financial service providers’ 

aggressively disproportionate targeting of communities of color. 

Technology can create a financial education cultural revolution 

by integrating a brand’s message via social media as the new normal, targeting communities which generationally are reluctant to 

discuss or have a lack of knowledge in managing their finances. 

Millions of these families, often unbanked, still voraciously consume social media and cell phones. 

An online blended interruption could have a powerful subliminal 

impact on uninformed Americans. As a result, seeds of financial 

education would be planted and would provide a time-efficient experience of learning outside of the confines of one’s personal fiscal 

crises. 

For maximum appeal, technology can also help by reflecting the 

cultural and racial diversity of Americans and how various communities interface with their personal finances. One content does not 

fit all. 

Thus, the user must feel that their issues are being addressed. 

Technology providers cannot build content and assume Americans 

will come and apply the information to their lives when they have 

had a generational distrust in doing so. 

Our parents report that they appreciate when they receive information that is protective in nature, that steers them away from 

toxic financial products and scams and bolsters their self esteem. 

The creators of financial education technology realize that they 

are already preaching to the choir. However, mobile technology 

messages can disrupt and influence a greater number of Americans 

by providing a learning experience while using mobile devices. 

Technology can support by being interrupters by sharing realworld, compelling testimonial videos which are mirror images of a 

mobile device user. 

Creators of financial education technology must have an up-front 

understanding of the challenges of Americans so that the content 

can address a diversity of family statuses—for example, creating an 

application which sends real-time e-mails to working parents about 

the expenditures and bank transactions that are being made by 

their children while including a savings roadmap. Or e-mail reminders could ask young adults, ‘‘Have you reviewed your credit report this year?’’ 

Third, a nonprofit organization’s newsletter could instruct how to 

research investment options. And lastly, since the use of technology 

is overwhelmingly popular, our organization is determined to empower our youth so that they will move beyond being solely consumers. Thus, we will teach them how to create and understand 

the fundamentals behind the Web sites and applications that they 

are using. 

Through personalized videos on tablet applications and games, 

Americans could have the ability to interact and communicate with 

15 

a service provider’s financial expert rather than simply passively 

reading. Financial institutions and cell phone companies could send 

money lessons via text message directly to a mobile unit or embed 

a message when the customer makes a bill payment or an online 

bank transaction, such as Ciana Montero’s post on Facebook, 

‘‘When I grow up, I am determined to be a PIG farmer; Passive. 

Income. Generator.’’ And Dante Stewart posted, ‘‘Did you know 

that 55 percent of students acquire their first credit card during 

their freshman year?’’ 

In conclusion, technology holds the promise of expanding access 

to personal finance education by providing flexibility in how, 

where, and when learning occurs. However, mobile technology will 

never be a replacement for the power of in-person, motivating instruction between students and financial experts. 

Thus, technology should be used as an instructional supplemental activity that is supported by compassionate financial coaching or attending the WorldofMoney.org Youth Financial Education 

Institute in New York City. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared tatement of Ms. Lamb can be found on page 77 of 

the appendix.] 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you all. 

I will now recognize myself for 5 minutes for the purpose of asking questions. 

Ms. Cackley, in the report that you generated you mentioned 

that there were, I think, 14 different programs across a lot of different agencies and that there is some coordinative effort but really 

not a whole lot to evaluate the effectiveness of the different programs. Is that a correct statement? 

Ms. CACKLEY. Essentially what we found is that there are now 

13 different basic financial literacy programs, because we started 

with 16, and 3 are no longer funded or no longer exist. And then 

of the housing counseling programs, which have a financial literacy 

component, there were four and now there are three. So we have 

seen some trend toward consolidation and that is a positive thing 

as long as you are consolidating in the most efficient way and with 

the most effective programs. 

When we looked at the evaluation of the different programs 

across the Federal Government, we found that many have been 

evaluated, but some have not. Not all of them are conducive to having a good evaluation done and we tried to look at what made 

sense, and basically we found that there is more work that needs 

to be done there, and part of our recommendation to the Commission was that they consolidate where programs had been found to 

be effective. So, the evaluations have to be done. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Yes. Right. I think that sounds like a judicious use, obviously, to look and to consolidate, but it looks like— 

certainly from the panelists that we have here today, there is a lot 

of innovation going on in the private sector and the nonprofit sector 

to try to answer the same question. 

So I would like to ask Mr. Krajicek and Mr. Kehoe: You both 

talked about your—and Mr. Saik, too—programs going into the 

school systems. Is this just a—is it a dedicated reflection of a certain State, of a certain region, or is it sort of haphazard? And how 

16 

do you get into that space, because I think that is obviously where 

it has to start. 

Are you in the schools right now, Mr. Krajicek? I know you are 

in the banks and the credit unions. 

Mr. KRAJICEK. We are in over 2,000 classrooms, yes. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. And how did that occur? 

Mr. KRAJICEK. It occurs because we partner with local community banks and credit unions, and— 

Chairwoman CAPITO. So you leave it to the community banks to 

get with your local school boards, et cetera? 

Mr. KRAJICEK. Yes. The leaders of the local institutions are the 

same people who are interacting with the school superintendents 

and the principals, so they already have that natural community 

network, and it is a lot easier for them to bring a product like this 

into the education system than it would be for an outsider. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Right. 

Mr. Kehoe, is that the same with you? 

Mr. KEHOE. Yes. It is very similar. We have a core set of materials, classroom plans, curricula that we make available to schools 

all over the country, and really the whole objective is to provide 

teachers and educators with the materials and then really leave it 

to them to figure out how to adapt it to their own sort of local 

needs and circumstances. 

And the way in which we get the material into schools is a whole 

variety of ways— 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Right. 

Mr. KEHOE. —through nonprofits, but also working with State 

governments. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Let me ask you a question, since you are 

global and you are doing financial literacy around the globe. And 

I don’t know if there is any kind of ranking here, but how do our 

American youth and adults rank around the globe in terms of financial literacy? 

Mr. KEHOE. There is no formal ranking in terms of that. I think 

our experience as we look around is that you see a clear differentiation between developed countries and nondeveloped countries. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Right. 

Mr. KEHOE. If you look at the developed systems, I would hazard 

to estimate that you have some developed countries around Europe 

that are probably ahead of the game because of the way in which 

financial literacy is built into the school curricula as more of a sort 

of fundamental thing, and I think that picture is growing here but 

it is more mixed. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Mr. Saik, do you have a comment on—is 

Mint in this—Mint is something that you buy, or that you purchase, I guess, on an app or is it— 

Mr. SAIK. Mint is free either through the app store on your mobile phone or on the Web. There is a Web site, Mint.com. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Okay. Are you in the school systems as 

well? 

Mr. SAIK. We are not actively pushing ourselves into the curriculum of schools. From time to time, we do have educators who 

contact us. In the past, we have had educational programs to provide Quicken software. 

17 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Right. 

Mr. SAIK. Nowadays, people use Mint, and access is free and generally happens without us really knowing that it is happening in 

a school. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Right. Okay. 

I now recognize Mr. Meeks. 

Mr. MEEKS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 

Let me first go to Ms. Lamb. In your testimony you talked about 

the importance of coaching, mentoring, and face-to-face interaction 

between youth and financial professionals, and how that plays a 

role along with technology. Can you tell us why this personal interaction is so important, in your opinion? 

Ms. LAMB. A computer can maybe convey a ding or bingo, ‘‘You 

won,’’ or, ‘‘You have the correct answer,’’ and so forth, but when a 

child is looking for motivation, or even when a parent is looking for 

motivation, the body language and the credentials of the person 

conveying that information is just more powerful, as is reported 

and experienced by the parents who send their children to our institute. 

I have heard from teachers across the country, for example, who 

are resentful of having to be mandated to teach this curriculum because they feel intimidated because they feel their own houses—financial houses—are on fire. So as a result, their resentment appears when they are reluctantly having to teach this course when 

they feel they have their burden to teach other subjects. 

So when you have a skilled faculty of Wall Street professionals 

who are enthusiastic, that this is good, this is how you need to create generational wealth and convey that positive energy, so to 

speak, to children and to their parents, it has a more—we can’t replace human beings. We have value. And the technology should be 

just a catalyst in order to—it is a follow up, but not the main 

source. It also should be backed up by a person. 

Mr. MEEKS. What about the—because you also talked about educating not only the children, but the parents, and I think it is clear 

from our opening statements that both the chairwoman and myself 

are still learning—connection between the child and the parent in 

regards to financial literacy? 

Ms. LAMB. There are thousands of workshops for adults across 

the country. However, there is not a long line of parents trying to 

access those workshops. How we get parents to the table is we empower the children so that they can become financial team leaders 

and go home every night and say, ‘‘Let’s have a financial meeting 

with our family and decide, for example, how are we going to lower 

our bills, how are we going to save more?’’ So the children are 

given the tools to bring home the information, thus empowering the 

parents. 

It has to be a holistic approach. One person just having the information is not enough. 

Mr. MEEKS. Thank you. 

Ms. Cackley, let me ask you—I heard you say a number of times 

in your testimony how a lot of it was relying on the CFPB to carry 

out various financial literacy programs or to try to make sure that 

the products are not abusive or predatory. My question to you, 

though, is what additional role do you think that we are playing, 

18 

government is playing, in developing and promoting financial capabilities for consumers? What more could we do as a government to 

try to make sure that we are getting people financially literate 

other than just saying, this product is bad? What more do you 

think we could do as a government? 

Ms. CACKLEY. The Federal Government is already doing quite a 

lot across a number of different agencies. As we said, we found programs that do provide information and tools for consumers not just 

about how to avoid fraud or bad products, but some of the things 

that we have been talking about already. There are a variety of 

ways that the Federal Government provides information. 

The Federal Reserve System has a number of Web-based games 

for children. Money Smart, which is the FDIC’s financial education 

curriculum, is available, and a number of others. 

What I haven’t done is looked more specifically at the technology 

piece and evaluated some of the newer things that are out there 

yet. 

Mr. MEEKS. Is there any coordination? Because I understand in 

recent years, the GAO has encouraged the Federal agencies to do 

more to coordinate resources among themselves. 

Mr. Green, I think, talked earlier about how we utilize our resources. Are we coordinating the resources that we have so that we 

can promote financial capability among the American public? 

Ms. CACKLEY. We have seen more coordination, especially since 

the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) came into existence. They have a played a role in increasing the coordination 

across the Federal agencies. 

The Financial Literacy and Education Commission existed before 

the CFPB, but since the CFPB was created and the Director of the 

CFPB became the Vice Chair of that Commission, we have seen 

more coordination happen. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you. 

I now recognize Mr. Luetkemeyer. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 

Financial literacy is extremely important. Being in the financial 

industry myself for the last 40 years, it is important, I think, to 

begin at the youth stage, because I have seen where the adults who 

don’t have this background can’t make good decisions, and then the 

financial services people have to sit there and spend their time to 

educate those people, and sometimes it works and sometimes it 

doesn’t. And sometimes, you end up getting people out of messes 

they got themselves into that they may not have if they had just 

had a little knowledge. You would have been very helpful to them. 

So to me, this is an extremely important hearing, and I applaud 

all of you for being involved in it. 

Ms. Cackley, can you tell me what the total cost across all agencies is for the efforts by the Federal Government to put these programs in place? 

Ms. CACKLEY. I don’t have an updated number for this year, but 

when we did our report, we found that in Fiscal Year 2010, the 

total Federal Government expenditure was about $68 million. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Okay. Did you do a return on your investment there? Do you have an idea of how much you helped people 

to be able to protect themselves and by doing that— 

19 

Ms. CACKLEY. No. We don’t have that kind of a calculation 

done— 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Okay. In your discussion and investigation, 

do you see any gaps in the Federal programs that we need to be 

looking at or need to be—that these different agencies need to be 

coordinating to find a way to solve that gap? Or are they pretty 

well covering most of the bases? 

Ms. CACKLEY. We have seen that Federal agencies cover a lot of 

different pieces, especially the ones that serve specific populations. 

So I don’t think that we have identified a gap, per se, but what we 

have suggested is that the Federal Government needs to make sure 

that they are putting their money where the most effective programs are, and what we would like to see is some assurance that— 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. I would guess that the biggest gap probably 

is keeping up with the technology to make sure that the education 

background is there for people to be able to utilize things like these 

other four folks here are trying to provide. I would think that 

would probably be the biggest challenge. 

Ms. CACKLEY. I am not sure I understood— 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Okay. To me, the challenge is to be able to 

work with the other technology here, to be able to help those people 

access what these other folks are doing . 

Ms. CACKLEY. That is certainly something that the Federal Government is doing, using some of the new technologies. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Okay. 

Mr. Saik, in your discussion of your products I kind of take from 

that, that it is a service you are providing, that you actually still 

have—you have access to these people’s information. Is that correct? Am I getting that part— 

Mr. SAIK. Mint is a service that allows consumers to aggregate 

their information from their banks, so the consumer can view the 

information on the service, yes. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Okay. Do you have access to their information then? 

Mr. SAIK. No, I do not. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. You don’t. From your testimony here and 

from reading it, it seemed to me that you still had a part to play 

in this, and I was kind of curious about that, if there were protections in place to be able to do that, but if that is not the case, if 

they purchase the application or it is given to them for free and 

then they utilize it and you have nothing to do with it after that 

point? 

Mr. SAIK. Sorry. I thought you were addressing me, whether I 

have access. Yes, the— 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. No, your company. 

Mr. SAIK. Mint.com is a service, yes, and we store the information for our customers on the service. We take the security and privacy of our customers’ data extremely seriously and use all the latest technology to ensure that is the case. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. So then, are you providing advice to them, as 

well? 

Mr. SAIK. We do provide advice and tips, yes. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Are you watching their accounts or is it just 

that the program automatically says, hey, if you are—you didn’t 

20 

save enough this week, or you didn’t make your payment this 

week, or your checkbook is about ready to go into overdraft protection? Do you, as a company, provide advice and say, hey, you 

missed an opportunity here to do something with— 

Mr. SAIK. Yes. We analyze their statements and things like their 

bank accounts. We actually guide them through setting up budgets 

and then alert them when they have overspent their budgets, for 

example. We also alert them for things like extra finance charges 

on credit cards that they can avoid and suggest ways to avoid that. 

So, we do provide those types of tips and advice. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Okay. I guess the metric on how you gauge 

the success of your program is the number of people who—how you 

grow your business as a result of referrals from other folks or the 

satisfaction of individuals. How do you gauge the success of your 

programs? 

Mr. SAIK. That is partly the way. We also ask our customers if 

they would recommend our service to other people because it is 

helping them achieve their goals. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Are you interacting with your customers and 

asking, ‘‘How else can we improve our product? Are there other financial concerns you have that we could help you address?’’ Do you 

ask that question of them? 

Mr. SAIK. Yes, we do. We do a number of surveys of our customers. We are constantly in contact with them. That is one of the 

ways, and we ask them about what types of features or other additional things they would like to get out of the service. Yes. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Very good. 

I see my time is up. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you. 

Mr. Hinojosa, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. HINOJOSA. Thank you. Thank you very much, Chairwoman 

Capito and Ranking Member Meeks, for holding this important 

hearing focused on financial literacy. 

Financial literacy is truly a bipartisan cause. In 2005, former 

Congresswoman Judy Biggert and I joined forces to found the first 

congressional caucus devoted to furthering financial literacy for all 

Americans. Over the years, that congressional caucus has grown 

and supported legislation, hosted briefings, and engaged with many 

Federal agencies on promoting financial literacy at all levels of policy. 

So I am happy to have Congressman Steve Stivers of Ohio as the 

new co-chair for our caucus. We share a belief in the power of financial literacy to decrease inequality and increase financial stability and hope for one’s future. 

Over the last few years, developments in technology have created 

opportunities to deliver financial education in new and innovative 

ways. So I am going to go right into the questions and ask the first 

two-part question of Mr. Barry Saik, of Intuit. 

Your company has been at the forefront of consumer software. 

Can you please share with us, in your opinion, what role your 

budgeting software can play in facilitating behavior change? And 

the second part: Can you share how your company has partnered 

with nonprofit and public organizations to empower those underserved communities financially? 

21 

Mr. SAIK. Yes. I have seen personally how our products, especially personal finance products like Mint, can help people learn 

about personal finance. I think what happens is it is one thing to 

learn about it and the theory about it, but until you actually—and 

I see this with—when first-time customers set up Mint and actually get all their data into Mint for the first time and see where 

they have spent their money, then you really realize how you are— 

what choices you are making and what the results of those choices 

are and are able to make corrections over time. And that is where 

the power and the real learning comes is by doing, and then learning through the experience. So, that is one way. 

Our company does have a number of programs where we work 

with nonprofits to provide services, particularly in our tax prep 

area. We have a lot of programs to help the underprivileged have 

access to tax prep software and services, as one example. 

Mr. HINOJOSA. Is it possible to start getting children to understand the importance of financial literacy in the 3rd and 4th grade, 

or would it be in middle school? 

Mr. SAIK. I am not really an expert on education, so I would 

think yes, but I am probably not the best person to answer that 

question. 

Mr. HINOJOSA. Ten years ago, we were told in the Education 

Committee that in order to recruit young children into STEM careers—science, technology, engineering, and math—we needed to 

start at the 7th grade. A decade later, today, we are being told that 

we need to introduce them in the 4th grade because many students 

can begin to understand the importance of looking at those opportunities. 

So it seems to me that we need to change our mindset that it 

is just for adults. It is for young children, and especially those who 

are now in high school, making big decisions on how to use a credit 

card and what schools to attend and what kind of loans to make, 

and so forth. 

My next question is for Mr. Stephen Kehoe, of Visa. Visa created 

exceptional financial literacy game applications for tablets entitled, 

‘‘Financial Football,’’ but has also focused on leveraging mobile 

phones to engage the unbanked. In my district down in Deep South 

Texas, south of San Antonio to the McAllen-Edinburg area, nearly 

one in three are unbanked. Can you share how Visa has utilized 

mobile technology in developing countries and how this might be 

translated to the American market? 

Mr. KEHOE. Thank you for that question, Congressman. 

The nature and the scale of the unbanked challenge around the 

world and here in the United States is huge. And to see people 

locked out of financial services altogether is something that I think 

all of us recognize as being a huge public policy issue and one 

which I think the private sector is geared towards answering. 

There really is, in our view, no reason today why anybody should 

be locked out of formal financial services. The technology exists to 

connect people and the mobile phone is, indeed, that catalyst that 

we are seeing everywhere to enable the connection to be made. 

So in developing countries around the world, in fact, we are seeing some of the most cutting-edge use of mobile phones to enable 

payments to be made, transactions to occur, and basic financial 

22 

services to be provided to some of the most underserved and poorest communities around the world. And in many ways, the reason 

why that is taking place is because technologies leapfrog. They 

have not had to go via the typical landline infrastructure that other 

countries are looking at. 

So to come to the United States, and particularly your constituents, Congressman, I think there are huge parallels in terms of the 

way in which you see some of your community groups beginning to 

operate and think about how mobile phone technology can be— 

Mr. HINOJOSA. My time has expired. Thank you for your response. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER [presiding]. Thank you. 

With that, Mr. Pittenger from North Carolina is next. 

Mr. PITTENGER. Thank you, Chairman Luetkemeyer. 

Ms. Cackley, you mentioned that there are 13 separate Federal 

programs dealing with financial literacy. Have you done a comparison with the effectiveness of our Federal programs as they relate 

to private sector financial literacy efforts? 

Ms. CACKLEY. No, sir. We haven’t done a comparison against the 

private sector. We have looked at whether effectiveness studies 

have been done of the different programs, and there is some variation across the different agencies and programs partly because 

they are very different. 

But we have certainly recommended that effectiveness studies be 

done, and in doing that I would expect a comparison against what 

else is out there would be useful. 

Mr. PITTENGER. Did any of the rest of you have any comments 

on that? 

Okay. 

I will address this to Mr. Krajicek: What technology is currently 

being used to improve mobile payment security and prevent fraud? 

Mr. KRAJICEK. At BancVue, we do not provide mobile payments 

offerings, so I am not an expert on that and would probably like 

to defer to the man to my left, perhaps, on that answer. 

Mr. PITTENGER. That would be good. 

Mr. Kehoe? 

Mr. KEHOE. The technology is evolving so quickly, and certainly 

one of the biggest concerns that we were seeing early on was people’s concern about the use of security in using your phone to make 

payments and new technology. But I think that we are seeing—we 

have seen the technology move so quickly, encryption of the phone 

devices themselves, the use of the chips in the phone to secure the 

device, and then the transaction itself, there are now, in many 

places, multilayers of security which are now impacting the phone. 

So both the device and the actual network and its users are getting 

safer and safer all the time. 

Mr. PITTENGER. So you would say that you haven’t seen fraud increase with the utilization of mobile payment technology? 

Mr. KEHOE. At the moment, actually, the use of mobile payment 

technology here in the United States is very, very small. And so, 

the amount of fraud that we are seeing in that system is extremely 

small, indeed. But we are not anticipating, as the technology increases, for that to be a big issue. 

Mr. PITTENGER. Sure. 

23 

Mr. Saik, do you have any comments? 

Mr. SAIK. No. We don’t do any mobile payments in Mint. 

Mr. PITTENGER. Sure. 

Ms. Lamb, any comments on your part? 

Ms. LAMB. I just want to underscore that children are very, very 

interested in this subject, but only as consumers. We serve children 

as young as 6, and they are very interested in being financially 

educated. 

Mr. PITTENGER. Thank you. I yield back. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you. 

With that, Mrs. McCarthy from New York is next for 5 minutes. 

Mrs. MCCARTHY OF NEW YORK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And again, I thank Mr. Meeks for having this hearing. 

We have worked on this for quite a while. Both of us are on the 

Education Committee, and a few of us—during Dodd-Frank, we 

really were pushing to have financial literacy put into part of 

Dodd-Frank, which has ended up with you having the educational 

piece of it. 

So it is important to us, and the debate among us was at what 

age, also, to start reaching out to our young people. And certainly 

the consumers that we were looking at were more into the middle 

income to lower income range, mainly because they usually did not 

have the tools to figure out how to save. 

And we certainly knew here that most Americans don’t save, 

those who should be saving don’t save. After the financial collapse 

in this country, the good news is people did cut back on their debt 

and they did start saving. So that is a good thing and hopefully 

that will go into—because the average person who is retiring these 

days only has $30,000 to $40,000. Some have done better, but on 

the average they don’t, because they are living from paycheck to 

paycheck. 

So I guess my question to all of you would be, as we are going 

into the technology age—and my colleague had brought this up on 

the security—especially with the breech that we have seen over the 

last couple of weeks going into—now I am older so I am a little 

more wary about doing my banking online, because all we do is get 

warned constantly. Most of us probably have very easy passwords 

where you would have to write them down if you really followed 

the techniques that some of the keys ask for. And we have constant 

hackers out there, so it is a concern for me. 

But with that being said, I still think it is important that financial advice and literacy go together, because people don’t know how 

to save. And my parents came through the Depression so they did 

learn how to save because they knew that something could happen 

in the future. 

So I guess my question to you is—and I know a couple of you 

don’t do banking, but it is going to be an issue for an awful lot of 

constituents back home on how we are going to do this, because it 

seems like when we come up with an answer the hackers get a step 

ahead of us, and it is only going to get worse. So I would just like 

your opinion. 

I know that you probably don’t have anything to do with that because you are putting the financial literacy into the government 

24 

programs. And it is really just information for them to go where 

they need to go. 

Ms. CACKLEY. We haven’t done any work looking at the security 

issues around the financial literacy programs that the Federal Government provides. Certainly, GAO has done work on a variety of 

computer security issues, so I could defer to my colleagues back at 

the office who do that work and find out more information for you 

if you would like. 

Mrs. MCCARTHY OF NEW YORK. Thank you. 

Mr. KRAJICEK. Obviously, technology is not without its risks. 

Things can be hacked. 

But as I often will remind consumers and bankers, when you 

have your paper statements mailed to your mailbox or you have 

your checks mailed to your mailbox, it is not terribly difficult for 

someone to get in there and steal that information either. So while 

there are risks associated with technology, I firmly believe that the 

benefits outweigh the risks. 

Even something as simple as a consumer being able to check 

their balance before they make a purchase to ensure that they can 

afford what they are about to buy can have transformative impacts 

on how they spend their money because they are always aware of 

exactly where they stand with their finances. And so benefits like 

that, when you imagine them deployed across the entire United 

States, I think are significantly outweighing the possible risks of 

occasional breeches, which will occur. 

Mrs. MCCARTHY OF NEW YORK. I would love Mr. Kehoe to be 

able to answer, if you don’t mind, sir. 

Mr. KEHOE. Thank you. I certainly agree that technology is certainly more of an enabler than on the risk side. 

Building trust is utterly critical to people of all ages enabled in 

the system, and of course, when you see headlines about breeches 

and things, these don’t help. In our programs, we have extensive 

security educational modules, as well. There is a particular Web 

site called Visa Security Sense, which gives individual consumers 

advice on how to protect themselves online and with their money. 

And certainly we see that as being a vital part of the financial literacy curriculum. 

Mrs. MCCARTHY OF NEW YORK. Thank you all for your responses. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Very good. 

Mr. Posey from Florida is next for 5 minutes. 

Mr. POSEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I thank the Chair and the ranking member for bringing this 

issue before us, and I want to thank all of the witnesses. Your testimony has been very interesting and actually, very pleasing. 

Never, as long as I have been elected, has financial literacy appeared as a concern of any citizen on any poll at any time. And of 

the probably over a million different constituents I have represented, none of them have ever mentioned it. That is a problem. 

Except for one. A financial planner in my district—and I probably shouldn’t mention her name because some people might think 

that is indiscreet—Eileen Davis, has mentioned it 100 times, and 

every time I see her, she mentions it. And I know it is a problem 

when we look at the statistics and we see how upside down so 

many young people are. 

25 

I wasn’t aware of a lot of the programs that you all are performing right now until we had this hearing, and I appreciate the 

great insight. And I am very pleased to hear the direction that we 

are going. 

The answer that I am kind of looking for to a question is how 

much you feel the affluence of our current-day society contributes 

to this problem? In most of our parents’ generation, as the 

gentlelady from New York mentioned a little while ago, they were 

raised in a depression and they watched their money pretty doggone close. They didn’t take anything for granted. They would been 

hungry. They would have been in want. 

Today’s generation, for the most part, has no idea what that is 

like. And I would just like to get your quick view from each of you 

on how much you think the affluence of society has contributed to 

the irresponsibility, actually, that has become financial illiteracy. 

And we can start with Ms. Cackley. 

Ms. CACKLEY. I don’t have an opinion as to whether or not it is 

worse now than it was before, but I think what we have found is 

that at all income levels, there is a need for information. That 

doesn’t happen at this point; there are people, very wealthy people, 

who still don’t have the information they need, and certainly middle-income and lower-income people, as well. 

But I can’t say over time what the change has been. 

Mr. POSEY. Okay. And I have seen many times the credit card 

companies will send credit cards to high school and college students. I think there really needs to be a law that if you send somebody an unsolicited credit card, you have no right or redress if they 

don’t pay it. 

I think that would be a fair game. It ought to work two ways. 

But you know what my chances would be of ever passing something like that, don’t you? 

Mr. Krajicek? 

Mr. KRAJICEK. A few years back, when I was volunteering to 

teach middle school students originally entrepreneurship and then 

financial literacy, these were normal 6th, 7th, and 8th graders in 

not a terribly low-income but relatively low-income area in Austin, 

Texas, and it was amazing to see the amount of consumerism in 

those young children, comparing their smartphones to one another 

to see who has the coolest gadget or who has the best shoes. 

And, I can’t speak to whether or not it was any different whenever I was in school, so I don’t know if the trend has altered, but 

I can say that overt popularity of commercialization definitely is a 

hindrance to being able to teach financial literacy. 

Mr. POSEY. Thank you. 

Mr. KEHOE. Congressman, I think there is probably something in 

the growing affluence of society that lends to that, but I think that 

the age-old challenge of people, regardless of their income level, living within their means, the need to sort of emphasize that and educate it just doesn’t go away no matter what your income level is. 

I think one of the potential drivers for the need for more financial education today than yesterday is really just the plethora of 

choice and complexity out there of the number of potential financial 

products that people can buy and how much more easy it is to access them today. 

26 

Mr. POSEY. Thank you. 

Mr. SAIK. Yes. I don’t know if it is the affluence, but I certainly 

agree there are more inputs and more comparisons of people having gadgets and fun things in society today. 

But one thing I think about is the importance of the awareness 

and knowledge and the tools to actually make progress, and that 

is where I see the real gap. It is kind of like dieting. People know 

basically, eat less and exercise and you can lose weight, but it is 

hard for people to take the steps, and that is where I think we really need to focus is on how do you make the little steps and see 

some progress and make it simple to make choices and simple 

choices that help you get back on track is something to focus on. 

Mr. POSEY. Yes, and I think we have all seen people spend 

money they don’t have to buy things they don’t need to impress 

people they don’t even like. We see the government doing that, actually, too much. 

But lastly, Ms. Lamb? 

Ms. LAMB. I will say that for the parents and children whom I 

represent, it is not the affluence; it is the illusion of affluence and 

the tremendous emotional pain they feel with regard to this subject, so much that they are not going to whisper their pain to anyone that they are having financial hardships except in the case of 

an emergency. And the marketing is actually the success story here 

because it often teaches young people—the young people that I represent—that they are nothing unless they have someone else’s 

name on their body. 

Mr. POSEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I see my time has expired. But I want to thank you for one of the best panels we have 

had in here yet. 

Thank you all for what you do. 

Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you. 

Mr. Scott from Georgia for 5 minutes. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is, indeed, a fascinating hearing. 

I have been involved in financial literacy for a long, long time, 

so welcome, everybody. 

I just want to share a little incident. When I was in elementary 

school—I went to elementary school up in Scarsdale, New York, 

and our class project in the 6th grade was for all of us— 

Mr. MEEKS. I knew you were a New Yorker. 

Mr. SCOTT. Absolutely, my friend. 

And so, our first class project in 6th grade was to go out, earn 

our own money—shoveling snow, raking leaves, doing everything 

we can—and then do our research to determine what stock we 

would buy. Then the whole class went down to the New York Stock 

Exchange and bought the stock. 

I never will forget that. It was one of the most profound moments 

of my life. I had my picture taken down there with Alexander 

Hamilton on Wall Street. 

And I have been on that trajectory and have had a piece of stock 

ever since. I got 75 shares of RCA. And if you go back at that time, 

RCA was a big deal. 

I mention that because that is the key. All we have to do is engage these kids, give them something. 

27 

And that is why I was so excited with you, Mr. Kehoe, when you 

came to my office and sat down—I don’t know if you shared that 

story, but he has an extraordinary game of, I think it is football, 

where you actually do it. Will you tell us a little bit about that? 

Mr. KEHOE. Gladly. Financial Football essentially is a game in 

which you pick your favorite NFL team that you want to play, and 

your ability to advance down the field to get a touchdown, whether 

it is a throw or a run, is determined by whether or not you correctly answer a question related to financial education. And so, you 

see kids playing this game who are so into the objective of getting 

the touchdown that they almost forget the fact that they are answering questions along the way. And of course, the harder the 

question, the longer the throw or the longer the run. 

We have found this to be an incredibly engaging way to get kids. 

And we also have, you won’t be surprised to learn, a Financial Soccer game, as well, that is pretty much the same tool. 

Mr. SCOTT. I certainly commend you for that. And that is the 

kind of thing I am talking about. 

Now, Ms. Lamb, we have to get our education in our schools. I 

mentioned that story about me at the beginning, and that was a 

long time ago—but again, not too long ago. But what more can we 

do of that kind of activity? Because kids’ minds are expansive. 

They are ready to learn. 

Why can’t we require in the academic pursuits in our elementary 

school that a requirement would be just to go and have a youngster 

set up—go to the bank, set them up a savings account, set up a 

checking account, or, as in my case, maybe make a trip down to 

the exchange and buy stock? 

If we engage them in things, it makes an impact when you are 

very young and it sets a pattern. What more can we do to do that? 

Ms. LAMB. I hear it from parents, ‘‘Why isn’t it in schools?’’ We 

can’t wait for that to happen. 

Teachers report that they are overburdened already, that they 

are not experts in a subject that they are being mandated to teach. 

And when they do teach it, often it is only one subject, and then 

they have to go back to all the other mandates that they are required to teach so that their class can perform well on the State 

regents, for example. So, that is not a priority. And then the teachers, actually, just feel really intimidated by having to teach a subject in which they are not experts. 

Our organization represents about 200 different schools, where 

parents send their children to us, doing everything that you—we 

have opened and closed the NASDAQ Stock Exchange 4 times— 

Mr. SCOTT. Yes. 

Ms. LAMB. Yes. We have done that. And we start at age 7 where 

children are opening mutual funds and having conversations and 

reducing the financial discussion, in terms of the chaotic discussion, in the household. 

So yes, it would be wonderful if it was in all the schools, but we 

can’t wait for someone else to do something that we see that we 

can provide another solution. 

Mr. SCOTT. So what do you think we here in Congress can do? 

Our reach for education is more getting resources down to the 

States; it is up to them to do it. 

28 

But do you think as a part of our literacy effort, that in our appropriations and assistance down to the State, some kind of way 

we can put resources in there? It might not be the burden of the 

teacher to do it, but there are some extraordinary organizations 

like yourselves out there who could take these kids on field trips, 

who could take them to the exchanges, who could take them to the 

banks. 

Unless we do that and show them the greatness of it, and simplify it early in their lives, we are not going to win this battle. 

Ms. LAMB. We have requests from 14 different cities and two 

countries that want WorldofMoney to open up affiliates there. We 

welcome the support and obviously the funding from Congress, but 

Congress really needs to recognize, yes, this is a financial issue in 

terms of discussing opening stocks, and compound interest, and 

dividends, and so forth, but we have to really teach Americans that 

they can trust that they are worthy of having this discussion. And 

it is all a trust issue that we are all having a conversation about, 

and if they don’t feel that— 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Ms. LAMB. —they are worthy of having a discussion, of accessing 

Visa or Mint, they are not going there because they feel that experience should be for someone else, and they are going to fill the 

emptiness in their souls by putting someone else’s name on their 

body until you can teach them otherwise. It has to be a holistic approach. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Excuse me. Yes, time is— 

Mr. SCOTT. Well-stated. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Time has expired. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Sorry about that. 

Mr. SCOTT. No, thank you for the extra time. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Mr. Green for 5 minutes. 

Mr. GREEN. Thank you very much, Madam Chairwoman. 

And because the lady was very excited about her answer, I will 

yield some additional time for her to complete her answer. 

Ms. LAMB. It has become an absolute epidemic, Congressman, regarding this subject, and our children really do see the power of 

money in their households. They see their parents fighting and 

screaming and manipulating money and maybe not answering the 

phone when the credit card companies are calling. They see maybe 

their parents signing documents that the parents admit that they 

don’t understand, signing away or agreeing to high interest rates, 

agreeing to subprime mortgages or what have you, because they 

don’t feel the power to question anything. 

The access of the manipulation of money, the transferring of all 

these resources of—even if it is a dollar, it is feeling that you have 

the ability to question it, to say, ‘‘I am not ready to sign this until 

I speak to my financial adviser,’’ or, ‘‘I am just not ready to sign 

it.’’ And there are millions of Americans in all of your districts who 

are signing away or agreeing to legal contracts who don’t feel the 

worthiness of their ability to question anything. And in order for 

us to really address this subject, we have to do so holistically. 

Mr. GREEN. Thank you very much. 

29 

I am going to continue that in just a moment, but before I do, 

I would like for you to reiterate what you said about board members—I believe you have two board members here with you? 

Ms. LAMB. Yes. Dante Stewart, who is— 

Mr. GREEN. Would you please raise your hand, Dante, so that 

people will see that— 

Ms. LAMB. Dante Stewart and Ciana Montero. They started attending WorldofMoney when they were 11 years old, and have attended every year for the last 4 years. They have created businesses; they have changed the conversation in the household. And 

they represent thousands of children who have attended 

WorldofMoney who are really doing the same thing. 

Mr. GREEN. Now, let’s return to the previous conversation or 

statements that you were making about how people find themselves contracting in ways that are not beneficial. I have some intelligence which connotes that about 66 percent of unbanked households use nonbank money orders and nonbank check-cashing. 

I am sure we can see how that doesn’t adhere to their benefit 

when you are buying money orders to pay your bills, you are also 

using these check-cashing places so that you end up getting money 

but it costs you. They use pawn shops. They use payday loans. 

They use rent-to-own agreements. You never really ever own it, by 

the way. 

Ms. LAMB. Right. 

Mr. GREEN. You just rent forever, with the hope that one day the 

product that is in your home may become yours. 

They use refund anticipation. If you are going to get a tax refund, that becomes a means by which you quickly go out and acquire that refund, but at a cost. 

So they live in a world where it costs them to do things that we 

take for granted—things that probably most of the people in this 

room, save a few, would not pay a penny to have, and that is very 

unfortunate. 

So the question for us ultimately is—and I think we are embracing it with the committee today and I salute my colleague who said 

that this has been a good hearing—how do we communicate this 

message to persons who believe they have no reason to bank because they have little money? Little money, no reason; much 

money, many reasons. How do you communicate the message to 

them that they have a stake in their own future by simply becoming a part of the banked community? 

Ms. LAMB. You can draw a comparison or an equation with the 

cost of purchasing those money orders with doing a free transaction 

with a bank. Congressman Meeks asked earlier what is the power 

of in-person instruction, well, that is what in-person can do. When 

you draw those parallels, those equations, and when—we have 

done it at our institute and our parents and our children say, 

‘‘Really? It is free to do these same transactions at the bank?’’ 

Mr. GREEN. My time has also expired. 

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you. 

Mr. Barr? 

I apologize to Mr. Barr. I should have gone to him first. But anyway, I am coming to you now, Mr. Barr. 

30 

Mr. BARR. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and no problem 

whatsoever. I appreciate your leadership in holding this important 

hearing. 

I would like to direct my first question to Ms. Cackley and the 

GAO’s work on the overlap of financial literacy programs across the 

government. And I note in your testimony here today that a while 

back in 2012, the GAO identified 16 financial literacy programs 

among 14 Federal agencies. I think as of April of this year, three 

of those financial literacy programs and one housing counseling 

program no longer existed, or no longer received funding. But there 

are still, needless to say, a number of Federal financial literacy 

programs across the government. 

One of the conclusions from your report appears to be that further progress is still needed to help ensure effective allocation of 

resources and to avoid unnecessary overlap. So where are those 

places where we still see duplication and waste in these Federal 

programs? And in particular, I would like for you to address not 

just the improvements that the CFPB has made in eliminating duplication, but also places where the CFPB can still improve in 

terms of enhanced coordination. 

Ms. CACKLEY. Certainly. First of all, what we have identified 

could best be described as fragmentation across the Federal Government. We did not find any instances where the exact same people were getting the same benefits from different agencies. So I just 

wanted to make the point that fragmentation is a problem if it 

leads to inefficiencies, and what our recommendations really spoke 

to was making sure that you are allocating scarce Federal resources in the most efficient way by putting the money where the 

most effective programs are. 

What we also, therefore, recommended was that the agencies 

need to know which are the efficient programs, which are the effective programs, and that is work that there is some information 

about effectiveness but not enough, and that is part of our recommendation is to do more—learn more and understand more. 

Each agency needs to know and to be able to show how effective 

their program is, and then that allows the Commission to make 

recommendations about where the resources should be allocated. 

Mr. BARR. And with respect to the CFPB’s progress on coordination? 

Ms. CACKLEY. The CFPB’s progress on coordination, they have 

certainly done more in terms of—through the Financial Literacy 

and Education Commission (FLEC), there have been partnerships 

created, there have—they have worked to—partly the programs 

that are no longer being funded I—or where resources have been 

consolidated, within the Office of Treasury, their Office of Financial 

Education, which we pointed out as being probably the closest example of an overlap, has been subsumed and the CFPB has taken 

on more of the principal thing that we identified. 

Mr. BARR. Here is perhaps maybe what—let’s just get to the crux 

of the matter, which is that in 1960 the personal savings rate in 

America, the share of people’s after-tax income that they actually 

saved was 11 percent. In 2013, it was just over 4 percent. 

Now clearly, the economy has a lot to do with that: Three out of 

four Americans are living paycheck to paycheck; over half of AmeriVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Oct 09, 2014 Jkt 088538 PO 00000 Frm 00036 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 K:\DOCS\88538.TXT TERRI
31 

cans couldn’t come up with $2,000 in a short matter of time if they 

had to. 

So with all of these programs that taxpayers are investing in, are 

we really actually making any progress? 

Ms. CACKLEY. It is a very good question. Part of the statistic 

about the savings rate is that it actually was much lower before 

the crisis. Americans’ savings rate was, I think, closer to 1 percent. 

So 4 percent is actually an improvement in the recent past. 

But it is certainly a good question, and we haven’t—it would be 

hard to assign any particular program as being able to turn around 

the savings rate for the whole country— 

Mr. BARR. I have just a little bit of time left, so let me just direct 

this final question to Mr. Kehoe. 

I applaud Visa’s work in financial literacy, and my question to 

you is, would you all see consolidation with the government programs to maybe grants to some of your more successful efforts to 

be a more productive use of taxpayer dollars? 

Mr. KEHOE. I don’t know if I can comment on the best use of taxpayers’ dollars to do this. I think our focus really is, at its core is, 

let’s produce materials which we know work with school kids, college graduates, everybody, and then work with the public sector to 

get it into the hands of people to do it. I think that is where we 

place our emphasis and that is really what we will continue to do. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

Mr. BARR. Thank you. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Mr. Ellison? 

Mr. ELLISON. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 

And thank you, ranking member. 

I appreciate this very important hearing. 

One thing I just want to ask all of you quickly is, just to get this 

idea out there on the record, financial literacy—do you see it as a 

supplement to good consumer protection or as a replacement for it? 

Would anybody care to comment on that? Please feel free, anybody. 

Ms. LAMB. I would say it is absolutely a replacement for and is 

consumer protection generationally. 

Mr. ELLISON. So are you submitting that we don’t need consumer 

protection if we— 

Ms. LAMB. By having a financially educated American family 

who is also protected, and having the information to protect themselves, and having the information to make the proper choices 

that— 

Mr. ELLISON. I hear you. 

Ms. LAMB. Okay. 

Mr. ELLISON. Let me ask you this, though. What I am trying to 

get at is this idea—I just looked up American math proficiency, and 

if you look at industrialized countries around the world, we are actually pretty low compared to a lot of countries in math proficiency. 

So I might argue that ideally, sure, everybody understands all this 

stuff, no problem. In a country of 317 million who have a significantly diminished math capacity, where there are also high-pressure sale tactics and tricks, I might submit to you that we do need 

very active consumer protection and we also need active consumer 

education. 

32 

Ms. LAMB. Sure. 

Mr. ELLISON. We need both. So that is why I said, ‘‘supplement 

to’’ or ‘‘replacement for.’’ 

Ms. LAMB. I see. 

Mr. ELLISON. So would you agree with me, Ms. Lamb, that we 

need both? 

Ms. LAMB. Absolutely. 

Mr. ELLISON. Yes. 

Ms. LAMB. We need all the help we can get. 

Mr. ELLISON. Right. 

Ms. LAMB. And all the information we can get, yes. 

Mr. ELLISON. Yes. 

And another thing too, is we were talking about how to make 

Americans more financially self-reliant and able to protect themselves more. One of the things that has come up quite a bit is the 

issue of a fiduciary duty. I strongly favor rules that require financial advisers to have a fiduciary duty to their clients, and what improvements do you recommend—and by you, I mean the collective 

you—to better protect consumers from hidden Commissions, high 

fees, and kickbacks that cost them money? 

Any thoughts on this issue? 

Mr. KRAJICEK. I think that one thought would be for Americans 

to be encouraged to bank locally with local community banks and 

credit unions. These are guys who don’t want to take advantage of 

their customers. 

I will tell you a quick story. One of the first times I met a community banker, it was a guy named James Mark, in a small town 

in Taylor, Texas—City National Bank in Taylor, Texas. 

He was about 30 minutes late for our meeting and I peered 

through his office window and saw him sitting there with an elderly lady and receipts all over his desk. When I finally got to go in 

and talk to him I said, ‘‘What kept you so long?’’ He said, ‘‘That 

is Ms. So-and-so. She overdrew her account a few months ago and 

she has been coming in here every week and I help her and let her 

know exactly where to budget her finances, what she can buy and 

what she can’t.’’ 

That is the head of operations at a community bank. And someone who gives that kind of support is not the kind of person who 

would try to hide a fee. 

Mr. ELLISON. Got it. And let me just say, I think that is a very 

lovely story, and it is great that the lady has the access that way. 

But America has 317 million people. 

Mr. KRAJICEK. And we have 13,500 community banks and credit 

unions. 

Mr. ELLISON. I know. I am not trying to debate you, sir. I am 

just trying to point out that while I think it is great that lovely 

story was told and that woman is getting help, we actually need 

to approach this situation on a systemic level. 

I agree with Ms. Lamb. We need to educate people. We need good 

Samaritans like the individuals you were talking about, but we actually need really active consumer protection, too. 

And I guess my question is and remains, what is the proper proportion and mix? Do you all agree with the strategy to protect consumers—all education? 

33 

How about you, Ms. Cackley? 

Ms. CACKLEY. We certainly think that financial literacy is important, but it is not the only solution, partly because there are just 

limitations to what you can do even if you are financially literate— 

Mr. ELLISON. Sure. 

Ms. CACKLEY. —and partly because there are some people who 

just aren’t going to be able to learn everything that they should 

learn, and those people need to be protected, too. So it is certainly 

a ‘‘yes, and’’ as opposed to an ‘‘either, or.’’ 

Mr. ELLISON. I see the red light, and I want to thank the chairlady and the panel. Thank you. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you. 

Mr. Pearce? 

Mr. PEARCE. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I appreciate it. 

And I appreciate the testimony each of you have given. 

We have probably done 50 financial literacy workshops ourselves. 

We see the need for it every day, especially in a poor State like 

New Mexico. 

Even my own family—Dad would never go into the banks. He 

just wouldn’t do that. So, we always were struggling for housing. 

And Mom was the one who would sometimes go into the banks. 

But anyway, I am very, very familiar with it. 

Ms. Cackley, I was going to ask, you saw the testimony that Ms. 

Lamb had, and on page two she is talking about the predatory 

lenders’ and fringe financial service providers’ aggressive disproportionate targeting of communities of color. In your oversight of and 

in your looking at the different programs, are any of the programs 

helping people to understand what is going on out there and identifying the institutions which are doing this? 

If we are going to get financial literacy, we start with the problems first, tell you, ‘‘These people here are here to take your 

money.’’ And so, that is my question. 

Ms. CACKLEY. I don’t have in-depth knowledge of each of the different programs and what all of their curriculums cover, but it is 

certainly true that a lot of different programs are available. There 

are a lot of different ways that information is provided to the public 

in terms of financial literacy, depending on which agency it is coming from and what their purpose is, whether it is Social Security 

talking to retirees, or somebody else talking to young kids, or just 

adults in general. 

But there are— 

Mr. PEARCE. Let me ask this, and you have more knowledge than 

me. You have talked to more of the agencies than I have. If you 

haven’t seen the programs themselves, have you ever seen an agency that is out there to try to tell people, ‘‘This institution is doing 

these things?’’ I don’t see that myself, and I wonder why. 

What we are trying to do is we try to set up things for government to where they don’t ever offend anybody and they try to get 

their objective across by enforcement on everybody, and not everybody is doing the things. Not every bank is—or not every payday 

lender is doing predatory things. They actually provide a pretty 

good service. 

But what we are going to do is we are going to kill all of them 

because a few are doing things wrong, and I just wonder why agenVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Oct 09, 2014 Jkt 088538 PO 00000 Frm 00039 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 K:\DOCS\88538.TXT TERRI
34 

cies don’t ever go after the people who are doing it wrong and just 

advertise for them. 

Ms. CACKLEY. Certainly, the regulatory agencies who have a role 

in consumer protection do go after bad actors as they identify them. 

What I can’t say specifically is whether or how they name them 

and get that information out to the public. 

Mr. PEARCE. I want to take issue with you, because yesterday we 

were sitting in a hearing where we had Mr. Madoff turned in for 

8 years by one guy saying he can’t be correct, and so the regulatory 

agencies actually set it off on the side. But I am asking as much 

about those institutions you are saying that we—and I agree with 

you. 

I am out there trying to give financial literacy myself, but if our 

financial literacy is not going to include those difficult-to-talk-about 

things about the people who are doing stuff that is hurting consumers in a bad way, then we end up saying to the regulators, 

‘‘You have to regulate everybody else who is not doing anything 

bad.’’ And what that winds up with are anomalies in our whole regulatory system that are affecting everybody who is following the 

rules. 

Community bankers did not cause the financial crisis, but DoddFrank basically goes after community bankers. And so, I just came 

from upstairs right now talking to a bunch of bankers who say, 

‘‘We could not make a loan to the best customer in this one town 

we have had forever because of the new rules,’’ and that is what 

we get forced into this trying to correct problems with people who 

are not causing them and we don’t go after the ones who are causing them. 

So my question is, you as a professional, so we get this layering 

on, we get multiple agencies doing the same thing, but none of 

them want to take on the problems that Ms. Lamb was talking 

about, and so we all kind of skirt around these things because they 

are very uncomfortable when we start talking about people directly 

who are doing things that are unproductive. I just wonder, again, 

if you think it is even possible for an agency ever to get into that 

realm—one of the educational agencies that you looked at. Can we 

get them into that realm? 

Ms. CACKLEY. I certainly think it is possible. I just don’t know, 

of my own knowledge, whether it is being done already. 

Mr. PEARCE. I had a lot of questions, but I got kind of bogged 

down, so the rest of you escaped cleanly today. Sorry. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. I would like to ask unanimous consent to 

submit the following statements for the record: the Credit Union 

National Association; the Center for American Racial Equality; and 

the Property Casualty Insurers Association of America. 

I now recognize Mrs. Maloney for 5 minutes. 

Mrs. MALONEY. Okay. Thank you very much. I regret, Madam 

Chairwoman, that I had a conflict with the Joint Economic Committee, at which I had to be ranking member. 

I would like to ask Stephen Kehoe, in your written testimony you 

note that in order for financial literacy technology to be effective, 

it has to be appealing to the audience that it is being geared toward. Can you talk about some of the challenges that you are confronting involved in making this financial literacy technology apVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Oct 09, 2014 Jkt 088538 PO 00000 Frm 00040 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 K:\DOCS\88538.TXT TERRI
35 

pealing, and how has Visa tried to make their programs appealing 

to different groups? Do you have a different strategy for different 

groups, and how are you making it appealing? 

Mr. KEHOE. Congresswoman, thank you for the question. Yes. 

Yes, we do. 

So, our tools, our products in the area of financial literacy, as I 

said in the statement, are very much geared toward using entertainment as much as possible to engage. This can be a very dry 

subject, let’s face it, for many, many people, and I think the challenge is you can engage with somebody once; the question is whether they will return to the same tool and use it again and again. 

So it has to be productive—there has to be an outcome that they 

get from it. For instance, they get some information which enables 

them to think more easily about retirement. Or it has to be fun, 

and they actually get something out of a game, which enables them 

to kind of go back. 

We have a range of tools which are available on mobile phone devices that really appeal to everybody from elementary to middle to 

high school and to college students to sort of do that. And really, 

technology is very much geared towards those age groups because, 

as you will appreciate, they are very tech-savvy. They know how 

to use it and they want to engage with these devices. 

I think more of the challenge, then, is people at the other end 

of the spectrum—retirees. How do you engage with them most effectively? But I think that is something we are still learning how 

to do. 

Mrs. MALONEY. Okay. 

And, Ms. Lamb, in your view, can technology fully replace what 

we think of as a more traditional one-to-one personal education 

that is what we have now? 

Ms. LAMB. Not fully, Congresswoman, because it has to overcome 

tremendous layers of distrust that many communities feel with regard to this issue and are—almost refused for decades to even have 

a conversation about it. It can add to the activity, but I don’t believe it should be a full replacement for one-on-one or classroom 

style instruction. 

Mrs. MALONEY. Ms. Cackley, is the governance structure of the 

Financial Literacy and Education Commission adequate to ensure 

that real progress is made in fulfilling the goals outlined in the national strategy? And do you think the agencies are targeting the 

right constituencies in their financial literacy programs? 

Ms. CACKLEY. The governance structure of the Commission is 

that the Secretary of the Treasury is the Chair of the Commission 

and the CFPB Director is the Vice Chair, and then there are 22 

agency members. There is no authority within the Commission to 

compel any particular agency to take actions or to allocate resources, and that makes it challenging for the Commission to 

achieve some goals. We don’t think it makes it impossible because 

the Commission can still make recommendations both to Congress 

and to the agencies, and that is useful information that you can 

then take and use to make policy. 

Could you actually repeat the second question, because— 

Mrs. MALONEY. Do you think the agencies are targeting the right 

constituencies in their financial literacy programs? 

36 

Ms. CACKLEY. Different agencies very much target different constituencies, and they have a very deep experience with certain constituencies, so Social Security has been communicating with retirees for a very long time and they know well how to do that. And 

similarly with the Department of Education and others. 

There are other agencies that look more broadly and provide information across a number of populations but the subjects that 

they cover can be very different. They might be specific to home 

mortgages, or they may be specific to something else targeted. 

We didn’t recommend any specific consolidation within one agency, but we did see that the coordination across the agencies needed 

to be good in order for there not to be overlap and duplication. And 

we have seen some progress, but there is always room for improvement in terms of coordination, and that is certainly what we would 

recommend that they continue. 

Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you. Are any constituencies left out that 

should have been targeted that you know of? 

Chairwoman CAPITO. The gentlelady’s time has expired. 

Mr. Stivers for 5 minutes. 

Mr. STIVERS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for allowing me 

to be involved in this hearing. As the co-chair of the Financial Literacy Caucus, I know how important financial literacy is to our future. There was an article in USA Today about 2 weeks ago, on 

April 8th—3 weeks ago—by Hadley Malcolm that I would like to 

ask unanimous consent to submit for the record, which shows that 

financial literacy education works. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Without objection, it is so ordered. 

Mr. STIVERS. And I do have some questions for the witnesses. My 

first question is for Ms. Cackley. 

The new GAO report looked at all the financial literacy programs, and you list 16, but you say there may only be 13 currently 

funded. Can you talk a little bit about the evaluations that those 

programs use to determine how effective they are and their lack of 

evaluation tools? I know the CFPB is moving toward creating an 

evaluation tool, but really, we don’t know what we are getting for 

the money we are spending or what the outcomes are and what the 

engagement rates are, do we? 

Ms. CACKLEY. Different programs have done different levels of 

evaluation. We generally like to see something where there is good 

measurement of outcomes, and some programs have done that. I 

think certainly the National Foreclosure Mitigation Counseling 

Program had studies done on it; the Army’s personal financial 

management training; Money Smart—those are some of the programs that we had identified as having had measurement and effectiveness studies done. 

But there are certainly others where they may be measuring outputs but not necessarily outcomes, so effectiveness hasn’t necessarily been measured. Sometimes that is because the program 

isn’t really geared to being able to measure an outcome, but in 

other cases it may just not have been done. And so certainly, more 

evaluation would be useful. 

Mr. STIVERS. Thank you. And I noted that three of the other witnesses, in their written testimony, mentioned the need to either 

have ‘‘edutainment’’ or engage people in some meaningful way so 

37 

that they will come back and not just go to a site once and be bored 

out of their mind. 

Ms. Lamb, you are shaking your head, and I know it was in your 

testimony about how important it is to actually engage people. 

Can anybody who wants to—and I will start with Ms. Lamb— 

talk about how important that is, because we have to actually get 

people’s attention before we can actually share information? 

Ms. LAMB. Right. It is a lot of great information, great online experiences that our witnesses represent, and if we can—if we have 

a community or millions of Americans who refuse to go there, but 

blend into their natural habitats or discussion or destinations online, we can educate them without them even making a conscious 

effort to log on to any of these amazing experiences, because they 

are just not going to go for a variety of reasons. But if we can just 

plant seeds—say, ‘‘Learn, earn, save, invest, donate,’’ and— 

throughout wherever they are, on Instagram it just pops up, paying 

a bill, then perhaps they will determine to move towards a more 

robust financial education. 

Mr. STIVERS. Thanks. 

Mr. Kehoe, you are at Visa, a major card platform. Tell me why 

Visa believes in financial literacy, and what they would like to see 

in their customers who have Visa cards as far as being financially 

literate and how that benefits Visa and our broader economy. 

Mr. KEHOE. Quite simply, a better informed, better educated consumer is simply a wiser spender. They manage their money more 

wisely, and that has a knock-on effect for the broader economy. 

So I think we look at the nature of the challenge and we are 

happy to sort of participate in pulling together the materials and 

the tools that will do this. And yes, we have a vested interest in 

making sure that everybody who carries a Visa card in their pocket 

knows what that product can do and how to use it wisely. 

Mr. STIVERS. I am running out of time so the one last question 

I want to ask is, does anybody—just raise your hand if you agree 

with the statement that a better informed consumer through financial literacy is a better protected consumer. 

I will note that everyone raised their hand. 

I would like to—I am working on a bill that would get the CFPB 

much more engaged. They are engaged in specific target populations, but what we really need them engaged in is educating 

America because it is the best form of consumer protection. 

Rather than having some agency looking at transactions after 

they occur, getting consumers informed before transactions occur to 

make sure they are not taken advantage of is the best consumer 

protection. I see a shaking of heads across the board there, and I 

want to make sure we get the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau much more engaged in that effort of educating not just target 

populations. 

I am sorry I ran over. I apologize, and I yield back my time. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. All right. 

Mr. Heck? 

Mr. HECK. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 

I really appreciated, actually, Mr. Posey’s reference to his constituent who repeatedly reminds him about the importance of financial literacy. After I spent so much incredible time and effort 

38 

trying to get myself on this committee and went back home and 

shared that news with my family, my older brother Jerry, who retired after a successful career in the financial services sector, immediately responded with, ‘‘Now, here is what your highest priority 

ought to be—financial literacy.’’ And he has reminded me of that 

multiple times since, and I happen to agree with him. 

I would like to ask any of you, each of you, all of you, if you have 

any particular programs/tools/approaches that have as their particular focus members of the U.S. military. And the reason I ask 

that is I happen to have the privilege to represent a very large 

military installation, but also because it is pretty clear that young 

men and women in uniform tend to be kind of vulnerable, at times, 

to getting themselves in circumstances, some of them that a heightened degree of financial literacy would at least impede or mitigate. 

Any of you have any particular focus, programs, tools, outreach 

in that regard? 

Mr. SAIK. Intuit is proud to support the U.S. military. We have 

a program through our TurboTax group where we provide 

TurboTax for free to help our military members prepare and file 

their taxes. 

Mr. HECK. Thank you for that. 

But in terms of an educational program to heighten financial literacy, do any of you have— 

Ms. LAMB. At WorldofMoney, many military families enroll their 

children in our institute every year, from Fort Dix to McGuire Air 

Force Base, and they travel to New York City to access or to attend 

the institute. 

Mr. KEHOE. Congressman, we have no specific products geared 

towards or specifically to servicemen and servicewomen. However, 

financial planners who are on the military bases across the country 

are one of our most frequent requesters of material that we send 

through. So that is something that we at least engage in the distribution of our material to military bases. 

Ms. CACKLEY. I am not aware of specific programs, but I am certainly aware that there is an Office of Servicemember Affairs within the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau which works and coordinates with the financial planners to whom Mr. Kehoe just referred. 

Mr. HECK. There certainly is, headed very capably by Holly 

Petraeus. I would encourage each of you to give a little bit of 

thought to what it is you might do in that regard. 

I want to go back to the issue of evaluation. 

And, Ms. Cackley, I am going to ask you to stand down in my 

first volley here. 

It is just not clear to me how you will know you are successful 

in a meaningful way. And by that I mean, the anecdotes are helpful. Some of the metrics like, ‘‘Our product or our tool gets referred 

to other people,’’ that is helpful. 

But at the end of the day, it seems to me the only metric that 

we are really after here is changing behavior in a way that makes 

the consumer more financially protected, secure, and smart, and I 

am asking, are any of you engaged in any evaluation efforts that 

would give us that information? Ultimately, that is the goal. 

39 

Mr. KEHOE. I can kick it off by saying that I certainly agree that 

evaluation is absolutely critical. And there are a number of studies 

that we are engaged in which look at control groups and then educated people afterwards, and these do show that education has results. 

One thing that we look at in particular along a number of 

metrics is how many people keep a revolving balance on their— 

Mr. HECK. Keep what? 

Mr. KEHOE. —credit card account—a revolving balance on their 

credit card account. And in fact, one of the things we say that even 

the most—we have found is even the most basic of training means 

that we see around about a 20 percent reduction in the number of 

people who maintain a revolving balance. And actually, on things 

like having late fees on their accounts of paying, that was reduced 

by around about 23 percent. 

So yes, there are some studies out there which we are involved 

in that show that it is having an impact. 

Mr. HECK. I am nearly out of time. I would just conclude—I was 

actually hoping to plumb this a little with you, Ms. Cackley. You 

had indicated more evaluation would be useful. 

I would encourage—and it seems to me most appropriately you, 

but I may be wrong—advocacy for longitudinal evaluation with control groups, specifically geared to what works and what doesn’t 

work. Because the truth of the matter is, everybody sitting at that 

table wins, everybody in America wins if we are able to accomplish 

that which you are engaged in, for which I commend you. 

I thank you for being here today very much. 

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 

Chairwoman CAPITO. Thank you. 

I think that concludes our hearing. 

I would like to thank all of our witnesses today. I think it has 

been very informative, and I appreciate the efforts that you are 

making in the area of financial literacy. I think if we all work together, we will keep moving forward. There is still lots of work to 

be done. 

Thank you so much. 

The Chair notes that some Members may have additional questions for this panel, which they may wish to submit in writing. 

Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 5 legislative days for Members to submit written questions to these witnesses and to place their responses in the record. Also, without objection, Members will have 5 legislative days to submit extraneous 

materials to the Chair for inclusion in the record. 

Without objection, the hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:04 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] 

(41) 

A P P E N D I X 

April 30, 2014 

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