# Date: April 30, 2015 **Case:** Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Phone: 202-347-3700 Fax: 202-737-3638 Email: info@acefederal.com Internet: www.acefederal.comAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 1 

## U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

U.S. Department of Energy Forrestal Building, Room 4A-104 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20585

10:09 a.m. Thursday, April 30, 2015Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 2 1 

## Appearances for Department of Energy Meeting 2 3 

## John Cymbalsky, DOE 4 

## Ashley Armstrong, DOE 5 

## Michael J. McCabe 6 

## Dave Winningham, Allied Air Enterprises 7 

## John F. Caskey, National Electrical Manufacturers 8 

## Association (NEMA) 9 

## Jim Crawford, HVAC Regulatory Consultant 10 

## Andrew deLaski, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 11 

## (ASAP) 12 

## Tom Eckman, Northwest Power and Conservation Council 13 

## Charles Hon, True Manufacturing 14 

## David G. Hungerford, State of California, California 15 

## Energy Commission 16 

## Diana M. Jakobs, Rheem Manufacturing Company 17 

## John M. Mandyck, United Technologies 18 

## Andrew Allen, Navigant 19 

## Catherine Rivest, Navigant 20 

## Adam Darlington, Navigant 21 

## Christopher Lau, Navigant 22 

## Caroline Davidson-Hood, Air-Conditioning, Heating, &Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 3 

### 1 

## Refrigeration Institute 2 

## Nicholas Mislak, Air-Conditioning, Heating & 3 

## Refrigeration Institute 4 

## Amy Shepherd, Air-Conditioning, Heating & 5 

## Refrigeration Institute 6 

## Aykut Yilmaz, Air-Conditioning, Heating & 7 

## Refrigeration Institute 8 

## Frank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating & 9 

## Refrigeration Institute 10 

## Don Farrell, Oilheat Manufacturers Association 11 

## Victor Franco, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 12 

## Alex Lekov, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 13 

## Roger Marran, Energy Kinetics 14 

## Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 15 

## Sarah A. Medepalli, ICF International 16 

## Gary Hainley, U.S. Boiler Company 17 

## Christine Hazelbaker, ACCA 18 

## Richard D. Murphy, American Gas Association 19 

## John A. Roda, Burnham Holdings 20 

## Steven J. Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute 21 

## Paul Sohler, Crown Boiler Co. 22 

## Gregory J. Stunder, PGWAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 4 

### 1 

## Cory Weiss, Fieldcontrols 2 

## Anurag Maheshwary, Department of Justice 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 5 1 

## P R O C E E D I N G S 2 

## (10:09 a.m.) 3 

## MR. deLASKI: On the record. Let's start. 4 

## Why don't we start with introductions, and remember 5 

## that this is being broadcast as a webinar so we've 6 

## got participants who are members of the committee I 7 

## think on the webinar and also public who are 8 

## participating in the meeting as well via the webinar. 9 

## (Introductions were made.) 10 

## MR. deLASKI: I am Andrew deLaski, I'm one 11 

## of the co-chairs of ASRAC with the Appliance 12 

## Standards Awareness Project. 13 

## MR. MANDYCK: Good morning, I'm John 14 

## Mandyck with United Technologies and also I'm the 15 

## cochair of the ASRAC. 16 

## MS. MILLER: Hello, I'm Deborah Miller. 17 

## I'm with Green Strategy Associates and I'm 18 

## representing NASEO. 19 

## MR. CASKEY: I'm John Caskey and I'm with 20 

## NEMA, National Electrical Manufacturers Association. 21 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing, 22 

## member.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 6 1 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham, Allied 2 

## Air, Lenox International. 3 

## MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe representing 4 

## myself. 5 

## MR. CRAWFORD: Jim Crawford here on behalf 6 

## of Densel. 7 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: David Hungerford, a 8 

## member of the committee, representing the California 9 

## Energy Commission. 10 

## MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, member of ASRAC 11 

## with Northwest Power and Conservation Council. 12 

## MS. JAKOBS: Diane Jakobs, Rheem 13 

## Manufacturing. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, DOE. 15 

## MR. deLASKI: And do we have any committee 16 

## members on the phone? 17 

## MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary with AHAM. 18 

## MR. deLASKI: Hi, Jen. I hope your child 19 

## gets well soon. That's why you can't be here in 20 

## person, but glad you're able to join us by webinar. 21 

## And thanks very much for your input via e-mail. 22 

## MS. CLEARY: Thank you.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 7 1 

## MR. deLASKI: It's been printed out and 2 

## members of the Committee here have your e-mail in 3 

## front of them so -- which is in response to the list 4 

## that I had shared on Monday. 5 

## So as an agenda for this meeting -- okay. 6 

## Thanks. 7 

## Jen's a little hard to hear. I'm not sure 8 

## if you can control that volume on there or not, but 9 

## it would be great if it's a little louder. 10 

## So I'll just kick us off here. John 11 

## wasn't at our last meeting so I'll do a little bit of 12 

## a restatement of sort of what we hoped to do, what I 13 

## thought I heard us say we wanted to do in this 14 

## meeting here today. 15 

## Let's start by -- and we're going to speak 16 

## informally. Actually John and I will do our best to 17 

## sort of advance things along here. As an agenda I 18 

## wanted to just suggest that we begin by approving the 19 

## minutes from the last meeting which was shared by 20 

## Jeremiah yesterday. I thought it would be useful, 21 

## before we get into the topics, to spend a little bit 22 

## of time on process and mechanisms, you know. JohnAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 8 1 

## asked me this question earlier this week well, what 2 

## is this leading to, right? What are we -- we're 3 

## going to take on some topics, where does it 4 

## ultimately -- what are the mechanisms that we would 5 

## use to advance our recommendation? Then I thought we 6 

## would spend some time on the individual topics that I 7 

## had flagged in the e-mail. Again, this is just an 8 

## informal list I said I take on at the last meeting to 9 

## put out a list to the group. It's by no means a 10 

## comprehensive list. We should open it up to the 11 

## floor, to additional topics that could be added to 12 

## that list. Maybe we should do that first. But then 13 

## we perhaps spend a little bit of time on each of 14 

## those lists -- on each of those items. 15 

## Then I would -- what I am thinking would 16 

## make sense, and, again, this is open for discussion, 17 

## this goes back to the first agenda item, but that we 18 

## would form subgroups or subcommittees of the 19 

## committee who would volunteer to take on advancing 20 

## work on particular topics. Again, taking to mind 21 

## Deborah's, I think, warning in our last meeting that 22 

## we need to prioritize, we can't do everything, andAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 9 1 

## set deadlines for ourselves and create a product that 2 

## would help advance the department's work in this 3 

## area. 4 

## And then I want to make sure we get time 5 

## to schedule next meetings. I think at the last 6 

## meeting there was a request that we maybe schedule 7 

## the week meetings for the rest of the year so people 8 

## can get them on their calendar so we aren't 9 

## scrambling to wedge it in amongst other things later 10 

## on. We should think a little bit about what time it 11 

## would make sense for next meetings and how many more 12 

## meetings we they want to have during calendar year 13 

## 2015. 14 

## Does that agenda make sense to people? 15 

## Any additions or modifications to the 16 

## agenda? 17 

## (No response.) 18 

## MR. deLASKI: Do you want to add, John? 19 

## MR. MANDYCK: No. I think that's a good 20 

## process. And maybe one other -- if there's time, 21 

## maybe just to quickly just to understand the state of 22 

## where we are with the working groups.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 10 1 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. Actually that's 2 

## probably a quick one. So why don't we start with 3 

## that? 4 

## Ashley, do you want to take that? 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. So let's see, DOE 6 

## recent -- well, ASRAC approved and DOE ultimately 7 

## formed three new negotiating committees, one for 8 

## commercial air conditioners and furnaces, one for 9 

## miscellaneous refrigeration products, and one for 10 

## commercial industrial fans. The first meeting for 11 

## commercial units, or air conditioners and furnaces 12 

## was this week. My understanding is that that meeting 13 

## went well and they've made some good progress. 14 

## I think that, you know -- I wasn't in the 15 

## meeting, but what I heard is that we have some 16 

## analysis work to do to help support the committee 17 

## before the next meeting. And I know that we've been 18 

## working through that. 19 

## The miscellaneous refrigeration products 20 

## first meeting is next week. It's Monday and Tuesday 21 

## of next week, a two-day meeting, so that will kick 22 

## off that effort. And I think they had a four-monthAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 11 1 

## term, if I believe correctly. I'm looking at Charlie 2 

## because he's the ASRAC member on the committee. So 3 

## just to make sure I have my -- and then the 4 

## commercial fans and blowers meeting is also next 5 

## week. It's Wednesday and Thursday, a two-day 6 

## meeting. And they had a 7 

## three-month term. And so that will kick off that 8 

## effort next week. 9 

## So that's kind of where we stand. They've 10 

## all been formed and they're all up and running. I 11 

## know commercial air conditioners has their schedule 12 

## for their remaining terms and I expect that at the 13 

## first meetings for the next two they will do the 14 

## same. 15 

## MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I'm the ASRAC rep on 16 

## the commercial AC working groups and we had, I think, 17 

## a very productive meeting the first day. Diane was 18 

## there on behalf of Rheem, and for Karen Meyers, who 19 

## couldn't be there, is on the committee. So I think 20 

## it was a very productive meeting and we were able to 21 

## get our ground rules worked out, I think, in record 22 

## time, we were done. Before morning break I think weAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 12 1 

## had our ground rules worked out in a couple hours and 2 

## then we were moving on to the substance of the 3 

## analysis and our input as a committee to show the 4 

## revisions that we'd like to see to the analysis -- 5 

## and good report back from the consultants on changes 6 

## there they're making a response to earlier 7 

## conversations and the written comments. So it seems 8 

## to be, I think, on a good glide path. We scheduled, 9 

## I think three two-day meetings over the next six 10 

## weeks. 11 

## It was very -- good -- minutes were sent 12 

## around yesterday. Are there any concerns with the 13 

## minutes? 14 

## (No response.) 15 

## MR. deLASKI: They look fine to me. 16 

## That's a good representation of our last meeting. I 17 

## think we can approve those minutes. Any objection? 18 

## [CHORUS OF AGREEMENT] 19 

## THE REPORTER: Do you know what, when 20 

## people speak, they need to speak loudly. I only got 21 

## one person saying no. I didn't get any other nos or 22 

## yeses or anything.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 13 1 

## MR. deLASKI: There were no nos, I don't 2 

## think. There were no objections. 3 

## THE COURT REPORTER: All right. Okay. So 4 

## I got one yes then, Diane. 5 

## MR. deLASKI: We asked were there any 6 

## objections and there were no objections. 7 

## THE COURT REPORTER: Okay. Thank you. 8 

## MR. deLASKI: For the record. 9 

## THE COURT REPORTER: Good, thank you. 10 

## MR. deLASKI: The next item I had on the 11 

## agenda was to -- at our last meeting we had 12 

## discussion around what are the cross-cutting topics 13 

## that the ASRAC could take on to help fulfill our role 14 

## in providing an advisory role to the department for 15 

## the appliance efficiency standards program? We 16 

## discussed a number of topics, and there was, I would 17 

## say, enthusiasm from the committee to take on a more 18 

## assertive role with regard to providing advice to the 19 

## agency. 20 

## What I thought we should begin with is some 21 

## discussion about what form that advice would take or 22 

## how that advice would be advanced to the agency. SoAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 14 1 

## let's open that up for some discussion. I think that 2 

## the general topic, the general, I think, issue is, 3 

## you know, we create working group or subgroups to 4 

## tackle a topic, where ultimately does that lead to, 5 

## what ultimately is the audience and the mechanism to 6 

## convey that advice? 7 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from 8 

## Rheems. In my past job I had to deal with new 9 

## regulations and I've been on committees for test 10 

## procedures and I think one of the -- the biggest 11 

## issue for me is that we don't generally spend a lot 12 

## of time looking outside of the test procedures. So 13 

## when it changes, we don't necessarily know what 14 

## happened. That's not to say if we are doing some 15 

## kind of new technology thing we'll spend more time 16 

## and try to understand what's going on, but if it's an 17 

## incremental change, we're pretty much sticking to 18 

## what -- we know what the test is. We're studying to 19 

## the test and we're collecting data to the test. 20 

## So, when we have these two, like the 21 

## furnaces today, when we have a test procedure, NOPR 22 

## and an energy efficiency NOPR that are coming out atAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 15 1 

## the same time, there is a lot of confusion. And I 2 

## spent the last week updating our program for 3 

## calculating the AFUE in response for this. And 4 

## talking to the lab and telling them why I need them 5 

## to collect data, even though the efficiency standard 6 

## is in the future and they're doing analyses and 7 

## they're designing and they have a test schedule, and 8 

## I want them to do another test so that we have the 9 

## data. So it adds a lot of confusion into the 10 

## process, it makes it very difficult where normally -- 11 

## especially furnaces. 12 

## I mean, 80 percent of the time we spend is 13 

## on safety, not on efficiency. They have to be safe. 14 

## And the decisions we make with respect to efficiency 15 

## may or may not affect the tests that we have to run 16 

## to be certain that the appliance is safe. So it just 17 

## -- it makes it very difficult. 18 

## When we were talking earlier in the week 19 

## with the commercial HVAC, people we were talking 20 

## about these brilliant engineers who will come up with 21 

## new technologies, and blah, blah, blah, but if you're 22 

## so busy trying to just do the mandatory stuff -- youAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 16 1 

## know, I don't know how much you can count on for 2 

## innovation if we're just constantly trying to make 3 

## these tiny steps. 4 

## So I think it's very important people -- 5 

## while in preparation for next week, I was reading the 6 

## transcript for the fans and blowers and people were 7 

## talking about loopholes. And there are loopholes in 8 

## the test procedures and people will find them. 9 

## And then -- you know, so I don't think 10 

## it's something that really works well in parallel 11 

## with the energy efficiency. There shouldn't be a 12 

## NOPR for the test procedure that comes out within 13 

## days with the energy efficiency's NOPR, and that we 14 

## need to understand the test procedure. We need to 15 

## get the processes in place. We need to -- for the 16 

## AFUE test procedure we take like 30 pieces of data 17 

## and there's 100 pages of calculations. So we need to 18 

## have a program in place before we start doing real 19 

## work. So I think it's really important that these 20 

## things get in the correct timing, one to the other, 21 

## to be effective. 22 

## MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. Thank you,Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 17 1 

## Diane. I think this is a critical point. I think 2 

## it's our first item on the list that I created in 3 

## terms of this. 4 

## MS. JAKOBS: Right. That's what I was 5 

## going by. 6 

## MR. deLASKI: So what I want to spend a 7 

## few minutes on before we get into the topic -- 8 

## MS. JAKOBS: Oh, sorry. 9 

## MR. deLASKI: -- is -- and maybe this is 10 

## more a question for Ashley. Which is how to 11 

## ultimately -- so we create these subgroups, we're 12 

## going to do work to better define these concerns or 13 

## these cross-cutting issues and then we're going to 14 

## ideally come up with some recommendations as to how 15 

## they could be better handled in a way that addresses 16 

## the kind of concern you're addressing. So how do -- 17 

## what form should that take for it to be useful to the 18 

## department? You 19 

## Know -- so I'll just throw out some ideas. 20 

## For example, ASRAC, in my mind, could make 21 

## a recommendation that the department publish a 22 

## request for information, right, that might outlineAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 18 1 

## some of these concerns, cross-cutting issues, and ask 2 

## for public input to better define them, and then to 3 

## ask for public input on how things might be 4 

## sequenced, for example, or how sequencing could be 5 

## better -- how sequencing could be addressed in 6 

## testing the standards to address a problem. So a 7 

## request for information that would broaden that would 8 

## be one action that we could ask for. We could ask 9 

## the department to publish a guidance, right, that 10 

## would do X, Y and Z. These are sort of two actions 11 

## that occurred to me that we could be advising or 12 

## asking of the department. 13 

## So I'll put it to you, Ashley. What kind 14 

## of things would be useful to you in terms of things 15 

## that we would provide to you or ask of you? 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's see. So I think you 17 

## -- this is Ashley from DOE. I think you pretty much 18 

## hit the nail on the head. You could ask us to get 19 

## more information from the public about a specific 20 

## area or a process-type issues. If you had a new 21 

## process in mind specifically, you could ask that -- 22 

## you could send us what that process might look like,Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 19 

### 1 

## and if we wanted to get a broader set of feedback on 2 

## it, we could put out draft guidance and ask for 3 

## feedback and then reconcile it and you could ask the 4 

## department its opinion about using that new process. 5 

## Some of the issues here that we're going 6 

## to talk about this afternoon I think are larger than 7 

## simply guidance or process issues. And we can get 8 

## into the details of those, but I think some of those 9 

## may be potentially regulatory changes that you're 10 

## looking for, statutory changes, specifically. And 11 

## I'm not sure that's something that DOE specifically 12 

## -- I mean, there are avenues for DOE to do that, but 13 

## they're difficult, but they may give you ideas about 14 

## what you might want to do, together, and work 15 

## together. to do that. 16 

## So as we get through them, I think it 17 

## depends on the specific issue we're talking about. 18 

## Certainly process-related issues I think should be 19 

## brought to the department. You know -- but stuff 20 

## that's actually pretty clear on our statute I think 21 

## is something for you guys to think about further and 22 

## brainstorm about, you know, what the solution mightAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 20 1 

## be or what the future might be there. 2 

## MR. deLASKI: Right. So -- this is Andrew 3 

## again. So that's where you could provide us -- as a 4 

## person with the committee and a member of the 5 

## committee -- 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll get there. 7 

## MR. deLASKI: -- you help us to identify 8 

## where -- what are the mechanisms you would need to 9 

## address, and then if there are regulatory or 10 

## statutory changes that are required to address a 11 

## particular 12 

## cross-cutting concern, then perhaps this committee 13 

## produces a report or a white paper or something that 14 

## identifies them. That would seem to me to be another 15 

## sort of potential output. 16 

## Now, the thing that I don't know about is 17 

## whether that's something that's actually within our 18 

## -- we can, you know, because you're a member of this 19 

## committee, and I'm not sure we can produce a white 20 

## paper or a report, right, so that's a question. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So I think there's 22 

## going to be a list coming out of today of issues toAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 21 1 

## tee up with legal -- 2 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: -- I'm pretty sure, to get 4 

## some answers both that will help inform the 5 

## committee's work going forward, but also help inform 6 

## what form it might ultimately end up in. And I'm 7 

## happy to take that back in and get some answers if we 8 

## need. 9 

## MR. deLASKI: I could see it being quite 10 

## constructive that at the end of this year or early 11 

## next year we have a report, some sort of output that 12 

## reflects the work that we intend to do here. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 14 

## MR. deLASKI: And that that output would 15 

## take, you know, the form of a report of some sort. 16 

## That would be a way to memorialize what was discussed 17 

## and what was decided and for the agency to know what 18 

## they've been asked of -- what they've been asked to 19 

## do and to recognize that there may be other 20 

## additional process -- right, because we're -- there 21 

## has -- as Ashley points out would require a public 22 

## process to address, we can't just decide that.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 22 1 

## MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey. I guess 2 

## I have two, I would say, pretty simple things. You 3 

## know, one is certainly as I understand it that John 4 

## Cymbalsky is like the project manager or whatever, 5 

## coordinator for the ASRAC; is that correct? He has 6 

## like a -- 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: His official title is DFO. 8 

## MR. CASKEY: Okay. 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, designated federal 10 

## officer. 11 

## MR. CASKEY: To me it seems like whatever 12 

## we would come up with as ideas or recommendations, 13 

## they would go to John and then we'd ask for John's 14 

## help in trying to figure out how to implement some of 15 

## those things. And with that being said, I think that 16 

## there are some things that are going to fall within, 17 

## you know, the rules and procedures within DOE and 18 

## there may be some other things that sort of fall 19 

## outside that or we still want to keep on a parking 20 

## lot that we still want to identify if those things 21 

## come up even though they may not be directly within 22 

## our charter as ASRAC or as DOE.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 23 1 

## But in addition to that, I think it would 2 

## be good that as we work through some of these ideas 3 

## and some of these topics, that maybe we would end up 4 

## with like a little project plan at the end to say 5 

## these are the next five steps. This is how we need 6 

## to move forward with this issue in order for this 7 

## issue to be successful. 8 

## So I think the two main things would be a 9 

## report to John to say, you know, this is sort of what 10 

## we found. These are our recommendations, how can you 11 

## help us move this forward, you know, legally within 12 

## DOE. And then in addition to that like a little 13 

## mini-project-plan on these would be the next five 14 

## steps to move that forward so it doesn't get lost. 15 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David Hungerford 16 

## --is our purpose to simply identify issues and then 17 

## tee them up for a DOE process? Or is it actually to 18 

## engage in some level of analysis internally and then 19 

## feed that back into a DOE or a process? 20 

## If we have an issue, something simple that 21 

## we have a question about, how could this -- or how 22 

## could test procedure setting work better? And thenAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 24 1 

## we approach it from a well, why does it work the way 2 

## it currently works? What are the statutory 3 

## organizational limits, what are the internal 4 

## administrative organizational limits? What are the 5 

## resource limits of doing those sorts of things? And 6 

## actually work -- is it our responsibility to work 7 

## through some of those issues given that in theory we 8 

## all have some level of expertise on doing these sorts 9 

## of things, and which is why we're here. And then 10 

## come up with some sort of recommendations that we 11 

## could put into a memo that we feed back into DOE 12 

## which then can go into a public process and be dealt 13 

## with in that way. Which direction do you see us 14 

## going, or are we limited in what we can and can't do? 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: My personal opinion? 16 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: I'm looking at Ashley and 17 

## at Andrew for their understandings of how we're 18 

## supposed to be doing this. 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: My personal opinion is 20 

## that you are an advisory committee and not only are 21 

## you to help with identification of problems, but 22 

## you're part of helping solve them, that you're meantAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 25 1 

## to help provide input to the department to find 2 

## solutions. So if you -- I think it's worthwhile to 3 

## spend time thinking about -- put yourself in the 4 

## department's shoes for a second, and how would you 5 

## solve some of the problems that we're going to be 6 

## talking today. And if there's multiple potential 7 

## solutions, maybe those are the sets that ultimately 8 

## get passed to John and then we seek further public 9 

## comment. But I think the department would welcome 10 

## the solutions from this group, because that's really 11 

## what this group was formed to do, to advise, to help, 12 

## you know, guide the appliance standards program in 13 

## continuing its successful efforts. 14 

## I don't know if you have a different 15 

## opinion. 16 

## MR. deLASKI: No, that sounds right on to 17 

## me. 18 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs again. 19 

## That was kind of -- that was what I thought it would 20 

## be. And I'm probably na ve, I haven't done this 21 

## stuff, but I have participated in a lot of 22 

## rulemaking, and from my point of view -- I mean, it'sAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 26 1 

## difficult for us to send comments and then you hear 2 

## back six months later, you know, or nine months 3 

## later. But from Ashley's point of view, I wouldn't 4 

## want to be the one where you put something out and 5 

## this horde of angry people show up in person, you 6 

## know. 7 

## (Laughter.) 8 

## MS. JAKOBS: So -- 9 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: That's my job. 10 

## MS. JAKOBS: Yeah, I mean, in a way it's 11 

## kind of exciting, but I don't think it's that 12 

## constructive. You know -- and there was one about 13 

## certification and enforcement and, holy cow, we're in 14 

## this huge auditorium and there were people with like 15 

## hordes of attorneys and -- 16 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: And pitchforks. 17 

## MS. JAKOBS: -- and pitchforks, and, you 18 

## know, many of them didn't read all the materials -- 19 

## you know, they were standing up and saying things 20 

## that were inconsistent with what had been proposed, 21 

## so -- 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I vaguely remember beingAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 27 1 

## the one at the podium for that. 2 

## Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, so I think 3 

## it would be important to help with solutions, right, 4 

## I think both from your perspective. as you bring to 5 

## this committee your concerns on behalf of the 6 

## interest that you're representing, but also as being 7 

## advisers to the department and your appointment to 8 

## this committee, I think you're helping the department 9 

## implement or consider implementing different 10 

## processes or better processes to make this more 11 

## successful for both. 12 

## So you're wearing two different hats. One 13 

## is, yes, you're bringing your interests, but you're 14 

## also doing it with that in mind of, you know, the 15 

## department, what the department has to do in terms of 16 

## this regulatory obligation. How can it meet those, 17 

## but align the interests a little better? Obviously 18 

## we welcome that. 19 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: This is Dave Hungerford. 20 

## That's actually what I signed up for, I think. I 21 

## believe -- I mean, I'm sitting at a table where I'm 22 

## representing the state with the appliance efficiencyAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 28 1 

## program and regulatory program and I'm sitting next 2 

## to people from -- representing the major 3 

## manufacturers and major manufacturer organizations as 4 

## well as other state agencies and other advocacy 5 

## groups. And all of us sitting at the table trying to 6 

## work out something from our best experience and also 7 

## considering the perspectives of our different 8 

## organizations seems to 9 

## be -- that seems to be where the value here is. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 11 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: And then that's what we 12 

## should endeavor to try to actually do rather than be 13 

## purely reactive to things that are presented 14 

## necessarily as just DOE; right? And I think that's 15 

## where Andrew is trying to move us. It's just how do 16 

## we get there? And how to identify which issues to 17 

## deal with and in what order is the challenge. 18 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. That's a good 19 

## discussion. Any other thoughts on this process? 20 

## MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I think we have 21 

## another responsibility that isn't spelled out in the 22 

## charters or anything else, and that is carryingAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 29 1 

## information out of this group back into industry 2 

## standards. Because that is a huge disjunct because 3 

## the standards committee can started modifying 4 

## standards which will be in direct opposition to how 5 

## DOE can function with the standard and that's a 6 

## problem. We have to understand as a group here how 7 

## DOE handles this test standard. And modification of 8 

## that test standard may have major implications to 9 

## DOE's functioning and they may end up going back and 10 

## saying, well, we're not going to accept the new test 11 

## standard because of that. And then all that time is 12 

## wasted, all that backlash and anger from it. We need 13 

## to be communicating not only into the group, but back 14 

## out of the group. 15 

## MR. deLASKI: And I would add to that, 16 

## Charlie, that, you know, there need to be mechanisms 17 

## for communicating, you know, beyond simply the other 18 

## people in this room, right, so we're not -- although 19 

## most of the associations represented here are 20 

## manufacturers or connected to them there's not, 21 

## probably, universal coverage. So the mechanism for 22 

## communicating those kinds of concerns, I think are upAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 30 1 

## for discussion. 2 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon again. 3 

## There are a lot of companies who are really not 4 

## active in trade associations. 5 

## MR. deLASKI: Right. 6 

## MR. HON: A lot of independent and 7 

## especially private companies that are not, and as 8 

## such quite often things get lost in different areas. 9 

## And so our communications out are maybe every bit as 10 

## important as our process within. 11 

## MR. deLASKI: Any final thoughts on this? 12 

## Again, the topic of process and output. 13 

## Why don't we turn then to the list that I 14 

## started and why don't we start by asking for any 15 

## additional items or topics that might be -- people 16 

## would want to see added to that list. 17 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs. I 18 

## don't know if it would fall under number three, but 19 

## the interaction between ASHRAE and DOE standards, I 20 

## think that's something worth talking about. It says, 21 

## "other regulatory work" certainly EPA, but ASRAC as 22 

## another -- or ASHRAE as another organization that hasAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 31 1 

## interactions with that organization too. 2 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. Why don't we add that 3 

## to item three? 4 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary. It's a 5 

## little hard to hear. Were you asking for additional 6 

## items to the list or for adding to what's already on 7 

## the list? 8 

## MR. deLASKI: We were starting with any 9 

## additions to the list and then after we had a full 10 

## list, I thought we would take time to talk about each 11 

## of the -- talk through each of the items some. 12 

## MS. CLEARY: Okay. Great. I do have one 13 

## potential item for the list, and it may not be one we 14 

## discuss today. But, Andrew, I think this is 15 

## something that you and I spoke about in the fall, 16 

## which is how the department should address test 17 

## procedures that impact -- test procedure changes that 18 

## impact measured energy. 19 

## And particularly, I think it's pretty -- 20 

## the department does a great job of dealing with those 21 

## changes in the context of the standard change. But 22 

## there have been some recent issues in the past coupleAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 32 1 

## of years with how to deal with those types of changes 2 

## outside of the standard development process. And I 3 

## think the clearest example might be clothes dryers 4 

## where a different test procedure wasn't even able to 5 

## be adopted because the department didn't feel that it 6 

## could adjust the standards to account for the changes 7 

## that measured energy. 8 

## And so I think that's something that's 9 

## really important for ASRAC to consider. You know, 10 

## the department has voiced concerns over why it feels 11 

## that it's difficult for it to use the process that's 12 

## set forth in the standard, and one of those things is 13 

## the anti-back-lighting provisions. So I think it 14 

## would be useful for the members of the committee to 15 

## think about that issue to understand further from the 16 

## Department what it views its roadblocks would be and 17 

## then for us to make some recommendations how those 18 

## roadblocks might be overcome. 19 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. Why don't we add it 20 

## to the list. I don't think we need to discuss it 21 

## right yet, but let's add it to the list for 22 

## discussion.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 33 1 

## Other additions to the list? 2 

## MS. MILLER: This is Deborah Miller. I 3 

## just wanted to add to Diane's, and that's simply the 4 

## Department -- or not only looking at ASHRAE, but 5 

## there are other bodies like the IEE, IECC and others, 6 

## so it goes beyond just ASHRAE that sometimes have an 7 

## impact on the standards. So, I would just keep it a 8 

## little more generic so that we look at others as 9 

## well. 10 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. Any other additions 11 

## to the list? 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I have one. 13 

## MR. deLASKI: Ashley? 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think from the 15 

## department's -- I'm going to take a different 16 

## perspective here. The department's perspective, I 17 

## think I'd like to brainstorm about how do we get some 18 

## of the key elements of data that is most helpful in 19 

## our analyses and how do we work with industry better 20 

## in more of a partnership way to do that? I think 21 

## that at one point in time, especially when things are 22 

## going maybe at a slower pace it was a little easierAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 34 1 

## to handle from both parties' perspective. And now we 2 

## find ourselves sometimes, I would say, not 3 

## necessarily with bad data, but we also know that 4 

## maybe more complete data out there exists. So I'd 5 

## like to hear ideas about what's a better way of maybe 6 

## information-sharing that obviously does bring about 7 

## it a level of trust, but I think it also brings us to 8 

## an ultimately better answer for everyone. 9 

## MR. ECKMAN: This is Tom Eckman. By that 10 

## are you speaking broadly across all the general 11 

## elements of the rulemaking process from the 12 

## engineering and technology assessment to market data 13 

## and all of those elements? 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I think that's 15 

## open-ended, including testing. I mean, you know, 16 

## when test procedure changes and the idea that -- you 17 

## know, one of the issues that Jen brought up, 18 

## fundamentally driving that is what our test results 19 

## under new and different provisions -- so we can get 20 

## input. But I just think it's a higher level of 21 

## discussion. How do we encourage information-sharing 22 

## and get access to that information?Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 35 1 

## But also, I guess -- what's the best way 2 

## to say this? Also acknowledge the concerns that 3 

## exist with sharing some of that information across 4 

## boundaries. So I'm wondering maybe is there a better 5 

## way and what would that be? 6 

## MR. deLASKI: So in some ways it's a 7 

## corollary to item one. Item one is about approving 8 

## data, but this is a more specific issue that the 9 

## data -- 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I see them as 11 

## separate, but I think the data is broader in a sense 12 

## from my perspective. 13 

## MR. deLASKI: Right. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: But it does impact test 15 

## procedures and standards and other avenues. It's 16 

## just -- it's really a trust factor, and I'm not sure 17 

## that I completely understand all the concerns. And I 18 

## don't think you guys -- you guys may not completely 19 

## understand what our avenues would be to handle 20 

## different types of data, and maybe we can come up 21 

## with a better way. 22 

## MR. deLASKI: I see. So maybe I'll try toAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 36 1 

## summarize it in my mind. It's manufacturers and 2 

## associations have data that characterizes the market, 3 

## that characterizes their market. And to the extent 4 

## that that data can flow to the agency is going to 5 

## inform more accurate analysis. And if there are 6 

## barriers to that flow we need to understand them and 7 

## figure out how to bring them down because that will 8 

## ultimately get better analysis based on more accurate 9 

## characterization of markets and cost and what have 10 

## you, a whole number of issues that are separate from 11 

## test methods. 12 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diana Jakobs. I 13 

## think it's farther than that. When I've been here at 14 

## the public meetings, you know, it's the 15 

## manufacturers, we're here, but the people who use and 16 

## apply the equipment, we don't really know -- there 17 

## was a lot of discussion this week about economizers 18 

## and if they're used and if they're maintained and are 19 

## they installed and we just know what we ship. We 20 

## don't know what they do with it afterwards. And I 21 

## know in California you've done some testing and there 22 

## was a partial hunt and looking at how equipment ages,Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 37 1 

## and that's not necessarily information that the 2 

## manufacturers have. I would say we're interested, 3 

## but, you know, it's not work that we've taken on 4 

## ourselves. 5 

## MR. deLASKI: So some of this is -- this 6 

## is Andrew again -- the issue is an economizer. There 7 

## are incidents in there. It gets pretty far into the 8 

## weeds; right? Some specific individual docket or 9 

## topic. But there's a broader issue which I was 10 

## trying to characterize in that number five -- which 11 

## is improved energy use data, you know, which is a 12 

## different kind of data that manufacturers aren't 13 

## going to have necessarily as an entity. But that -- 14 

## you know, Tom's organization and others have done 15 

## significant studies historically to characterize good 16 

## energy consumption. There's new work in the 17 

## northwest, California IU is taking on a new -- a 18 

## major new good energy use study. 19 

## So I think, you know, coordination around 20 

## those kinds of field energy consumption surveys that 21 

## help us to better characterize across sectors and 22 

## across the -- not just, you know a given product, butAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 38 1 

## industrial, commercial, if that's possible industrial 2 

## sectors would be another source of data. 3 

## That often has been a challenge. I know 4 

## that we in the ASRAC community often will put in a 5 

## comment to the department and say, well, we have this 6 

## study from Vermont that shows X, Y, and Z. Well, 7 

## that's fine and dandy, that's Vermont. But tell me 8 

## about whether I can use this as a national 9 

## representative study or note, right. 10 

## So I think that's a question that, you 11 

## know, can we come up with some recommendations? And 12 

## this is ultimately who acts in the power of 13 

## recommendations. There probably is a whole set of 14 

## entities that play a role in helping to improve 15 

## knowledge of good energy consumption. But that 16 

## strikes me as being item -- an accomplice to number 17 

## five. 18 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David Hungerford. 19 

## I'd like to add one thing to that. Sometimes there's 20 

## a tendency to say that the solution to a data problem 21 

## is to collect more data and to somehow find a way to 22 

## get more data. And sometimes that is the solution,Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 39 1 

## especially when you have a real lack of data in 2 

## certain areas. But sometimes the better solution is 3 

## to look for -- to try and choose an outcome, try to 4 

## find a way to get an outcome that is robust, even in 5 

## the absence of good data on some of the things you're 6 

## trying to measure. And I'll try to illustrate in a 7 

## second. 8 

## There is an implicit assumption generally 9 

## that a test procedure will somehow capture how a 10 

## device operates in a general way. And then there's 11 

## this implicit assumption that then that applies over 12 

## all kinds of -- if it's most efficient during test 13 

## procedure, then it's also going to be most efficient 14 

## in a wide variety of applications because there's a 15 

## lot of variety of applications, and across time. 16 

## It's going to uniformly degrade. A more efficient 17 

## device now is going to degrade more efficiently than 18 

## the less efficient device. 19 

## But we all know that those things are not 20 

## necessarily true, that sometimes a test procedure can 21 

## be designed in such a way that the devices perform 22 

## well under the test procedure, but you find theAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 40 1 

## majority of applications, they don't perform nearly 2 

## as well, and a device with a different -- that's set 3 

## up differently, might perform better more generally, 4 

## or might degrade in a -- would lose less efficiency 5 

## over time. 6 

## And so the ultimate question is, how do 7 

## you provide -- how do you develop a process and a set 8 

## of outcomes that are robust with regard to meet the 9 

## data from a number of -- from a number of various -- 10 

## because you're never going to have really excellent 11 

## data from everywhere. 12 

## You're never going to have -- you're not 13 

## going to have necessarily great sales figures data 14 

## because that tends to be proprietary. It's difficult 15 

## to get use data because that requires very expensive 16 

## kinds of testing and observation or field work that 17 

## requires going out and talking to people and 18 

## observing how things are operating in people's homes 19 

## or in people's buildings. And those are all very 20 

## difficult to collect data. So the question gets back 21 

## to how do you develop a solution that is robust with 22 

## regard to lack of data rather than always dependingAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 41 1 

## on more data? 2 

## MR. deLASKI: I want to make sure -- right 3 

## now we're still trying to get the list complete 4 

## before we move into the list. So were there other -- 5 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: Are we in the list? I'm 6 

## sorry. 7 

## MR. deLASKI: John, you were starting to 8 

## raise your hand. 9 

## MR. MANDYCK: No, I just think Ashley has 10 

## hit on an important point. There are barriers to 11 

## sharing data and there are trust issues, and so I 12 

## think it would be good to have conversation about it. 13 

## MR. deLASKI: Anything else for the list? 14 

## (No response.) 15 

## MR. deLASKI: So I also want to be 16 

## conscious that we as a committee are, you know, 13 or 17 

## 14 people and so the idea here is that ultimately 18 

## what would come out of it today was the formation of 19 

## some subcommittees that will take on some tasks. We 20 

## probably can't do everything on this list, so we need 21 

## to, you know, at the end of the day be prepared to 22 

## pick. So with that background, maybe keep that inAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 42 1 

## the back of your mind. 2 

## There may be -- maybe some of these topics 3 

## are there's some overlap and they could be combined. 4 

## I think Jennifer in her e-mail had suggested that 5 

## items number -- 6 

## MR. ECKMAN: One and five. 7 

## MR. deLASKI: One and five might have some 8 

## significant overlap and could perhaps be collapsed. 9 

## Do people have a preference for what order 10 

## we discuss these topics in? 11 

## MS. MILLER: No. 12 

## MR. MANDYCK: Can we just go through the 13 

## list? 14 

## MR. deLASKI: Right. Why don't we start 15 

## with item number one. 16 

## MS. CLEARY: And maybe we can include item 17 

## number five in our discussion of item one because 18 

## there is some overlap if we think we might 19 

## potentially combine them. It seems more useful to 20 

## discuss them, if not at the same time, one right 21 

## after the other. 22 

## MR. deLASKI: Sounds good.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 43 1 

## Jen, do you want to start us off with this 2 

## since you reacted to this one? 3 

## MS. CLEARY: Okay. Sure. I think that 4 

## this is a really important thing for the committee to 5 

## address, so at least for me this one is a priority. 6 

## You know, I think it was Diane who was speaking 7 

## earlier. I'm sorry if I get your the name wrong, not 8 

## being in the room, but agree with the points that she 9 

## was raising. You know, we've certainly seen recently 10 

## a lot of instances where proposed test procedures 11 

## being issued at the same time or within relatively a 12 

## short time frame of a standards proposal. 13 

## Even if it's not a proposed rule, it's 14 

## something significant we'll need to respond to. And 15 

## the challenge there is that if you're just reacting 16 

## to a draft expert feature or test procedure 17 

## amendment, you know, there's a lot of work involved 18 

## in just that and then you provide data on -- you 19 

## know, the type of data that's needed for a standards 20 

## analysis with a test procedure that's in flux is 21 

## virtually impossible, particularly from a 22 

## manufacturer point of view.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 44 1 

## And I think that's problematic not just 2 

## for the manufacturers, but also for the efficiency 3 

## advocates and for DOE because the result is that no 4 

## one really understands what the baseline -- what are 5 

## the -- you know, efficiency levels that should be 6 

## reviewed because the test is critical in evaluating, 7 

## you know, where the market is and where it can go. 8 

## You know, sometimes a test procedure might impact the 9 

## design options that are used for example, what will 10 

## be measured by the test and what won't. 11 

## So we're certainly basing this, as I 12 

## mentioned, in several rulemakings, and I think it has 13 

## certainly hamstrung us in many cases from being able 14 

## to provide data. And that's not a position that any 15 

## alliance members wants to be in, and I imagine it's 16 

## not a position that DOE wants to be in where it's 17 

## requesting data from us and we're basically saying, 18 

## that we can't give it to you because we have this 19 

## draft test procedure. In many cases we might 20 

## disagree with portions of it. 21 

## And, you know, aside from the practical 22 

## issues of trying to, you know, teach the lab how toAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 45 1 

## do the proposed test, everybody having a different 2 

## view of what the proposed test is, and we're trying 3 

## to work our those issues and also have the issue of 4 

## practically a lab may not want to do testing on a 5 

## particular test procedure because it's not viewed as 6 

## a good use of resources. For example, test all or 7 

## significantly all the basic models under the test 8 

## method could and likely will change, if not 9 

## significantly, at least in ways that would change the 10 

## results. 11 

## So, you know, I think that's why it's 12 

## really critical that we figure out how DOE can view 13 

## this in a sequence that makes sense, you know, 14 

## following, I think, what's in the project improvement 15 

## rule, for example, but also how we can help the 16 

## department do this quickly. Because the feedback 17 

## from the department side, they're trying to meet 18 

## their statutory deadlines and they're trying to move 19 

## the process along quickly and finalizing the test 20 

## procedure before even issuing a proposal. I can 21 

## understand that more challenging side and would like 22 

## to hear from Ashley or others at DOE about thoseAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 46 1 

## challenges and how we might be able to address those. 2 

## You know, one potential way that we've 3 

## been thinking about at AHAM is kind of a fast-track 4 

## process. And this wouldn't address major test 5 

## procedure issues, but it could address kind of more 6 

## administrative-type changes that are not 7 

## controversial that are maybe necessary for testing to 8 

## even be able to continue, for example. 9 

## And I cited an issue here of maybe 10 

## dishware where the dishwasher test procedure is no 11 

## longer available and it needs to be replaced. And 12 

## stakeholders suggest a replacement, and maybe there 13 

## could just be some quicker ways to move through that 14 

## process. But I think that is somewhat separate from 15 

## the larger issue of the sequencing proposal. 16 

## So I'll stop there before moving on to the 17 

## data piece, and maybe we'll talk about that next. 18 

## But that's my view on the first part of it. 19 

## MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. Let me be 20 

## the devil's advocate for a second because I -- you 21 

## know, I certainly agree that -- you know, if we were 22 

## -- the world that I think we would like to live in isAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 47 1 

## a world in which before DOE even begins to test a 2 

## rulemaking, the test method is locked down and done 3 

## and not to be touched; right? So that would be kind 4 

## of an ideal thing, that the framework stage is all 5 

## set, it's all locked down, that way you've got tons 6 

## of data based on an existing test method and 7 

## everything is just -- you know, this is all locked 8 

## down. There's no reason to, as Jen just said, just 9 

## to try it. 10 

## But what I've observed is that often it's 11 

## the standards -- beginning of the standards 12 

## proceeding that actually focuses the mind and that we 13 

## start to find that there are these issues, these 14 

## problems with the test method that come to the fore 15 

## because of the standard proceeding getting started. 16 

## So it's sort of a chicken-and-egg kind of problem, 17 

## you know, and that there's not -- the effort to -- 18 

## you know, there are so many test methods that I can 19 

## tell you, and I think we all have experienced, where 20 

## the guys who know it come up and say, oh, this one's 21 

## got all kinds of problems, because this one's got 22 

## this problem, this problem, and you know, there's noAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 48 1 

## one really working to fix it until the standard 2 

## proceeding rolls around. It's not part of focus to 3 

## fix it. 4 

## So to me there's a tension there because 5 

## we want a representative test method that gives us 6 

## accurate rankings of products and efficiency 7 

## performance. And then when you uncover the problems, 8 

## you want to fix them. And then I also think that we 9 

## often end up at the end of a rulemaking not having 10 

## fixed them. And then the momentum to fix them then 11 

## goes away. And then we're back several years later 12 

## and the same problems still exist, they haven't been 13 

## fixed. So, you know, there's a -- that's the 14 

## tension I see in this. And I certainly want to live 15 

## in that ideal world, but I'm curious what people see 16 

## as how can we get the update, get the improvements, 17 

## but get them in a sequencing capacity to make 18 

## everyone provide data and understand what's actually 19 

## happening. 20 

## MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck. I 21 

## mean, that's certainly true, but there's also another 22 

## universal truth. There is no perfect test standard.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 49 1 

## There is no perfect energy efficiency standard. So I 2 

## think we'll always find issues that we'll want to 3 

## nitpick. I think the issues that Jen is brining up 4 

## and the ones that I experienced are -- even goes to 5 

## the extreme. I think it was the off mode where we 6 

## had a standard before we had a test procedure. So it 7 

## has crept to the point of a little bit of 8 

## disfunctionality and the ability to manage the -- how 9 

## you comply. 10 

## So I agree with you, I don't think it's 11 

## anybody's ideal state. I don't think it's 12 

## intentional, but we have gotten to the point where we 13 

## either get standards without test procedures or 14 

## standards on the heels of the test procedures that 15 

## are imperfect. And so there have to be reasons why 16 

## that is, and maybe those are the areas that we can 17 

## all try to focus attention. Because, again, I don't 18 

## think it's anybody's agenda or will to have it turn 19 

## out this way. 20 

## MR. deLASKI: Right. To have that be an 21 

## initial task -- 22 

## (Simultaneous conversation.)Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 50 1 

## MR. deLASKI: -- subgroup is to identify - 2 

## - and I like the way you characterized it, which is 3 

## there have been some -- in these incidents that a 4 

## couple people have tossed out here, what are the 5 

## causal factors that have led to outcomes that I think 6 

## we all would agree are not the desired approach. And 7 

## you can't knock down the factors until you know what 8 

## they are. 9 

## MR. ECKMAN: This is Tom Eckman. I'm 10 

## picking up on that and a little bit of what Ashley 11 

## mentioned earlier about the broader data needs for 12 

## improving. IT seems to me we offer this, as you 13 

## said, focus the mind on the standard starts and we 14 

## find that the test procedure doesn't cover things 15 

## that we want to do that might be a technology that we 16 

## would apply differently, or in a sense of the 17 

## technology options. 18 

## And so part of this is just figuring out 19 

## how to get in front of the test procedure with some 20 

## sort of scoping about what we expect to be engaged 21 

## upon with the type of technology improvement. 22 

## Because some of the test procedures don'tAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 51 1 

## particularly -- as we've getting more and more going 2 

## forward with controls, the current test procedure are 3 

## woefully inadequate to address the controls that 4 

## might be invented and sent out and reprogrammed via 5 

## wireless at some point in the future so the equipment 6 

## operates entirely differently than it did when it 7 

## left the factory floor. 8 

## Somehow or another we've got to get ahead 9 

## of that. So the next round of rulemaking is when 10 

## most equipment is going to have somebody out there 11 

## with a printed circuit board and logic that is really 12 

## different than what we've got today. And I'm 13 

## concerned that the test procedure's just not enough 14 

## capacity dealing with that going forward. There's a 15 

## lot of talk about system improvements, but really are 16 

## related to controlling the device better to do just 17 

## what needs to do, and not much else. And I think we 18 

## really haven't focused our minds around how the test 19 

## procedures -- we need a scoping exercise more 20 

## broadly, but to get ahead of the standard-setting 21 

## process so we have a test procedure that can actually 22 

## deal with these issues.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 52 1 

## And there are lots of data requirements 2 

## that need to be derived compared to the current ones, 3 

## but I think that one is a completely different 4 

## frontier than we -- we're seeing that now in dryers. 5 

## There are lots of ways to make a dryer more 6 

## efficient, one of which is to control it better. And 7 

## it's not really being able to capture that very 8 

## often. So I think that's the kind of thing that I'm 9 

## -- as we get through this big traunch of standards 10 

## right now, we've got to -- the next round six years 11 

## from now and all we just did in the lat five years 12 

## are going to show up again. I know exactly which 13 

## phase -- we're doing things right back to back, and 14 

## it's done after the test procedure, but only two 15 

## weeks. MR. deLASKI: And one of the things that 16 

## we asked DOE to do in our last meeting was to produce 17 

## a kind of schedule that would help us to understand 18 

## the timing, and Ashley and John have kindly done 19 

## that. They've just presented or shared with us here 20 

## -- 21 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 22 

## MR. deLASKI: Kelly?Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 53 1 

## MS. KLINE: Hi, sorry to jump in late 2 

## here. 3 

## MR. deLASKI: Welcome. 4 

## MS. KLINE: I was just going to add to 5 

## that. I think maybe one way to get at that in terms 6 

## of the forecasted schedule, it strikes me with some 7 

## of the test procedures you were noting about just the 8 

## need to focus the mind on things, right, that might 9 

## be a way to get at like if we were able to 10 

## collectively look at that schedule and say, you know, 11 

## pick any product, any existing test procedure, 12 

## outstanding issues need to be resolved by date X so 13 

## there's kind of a common understanding of when that 14 

## needs to happen so that that can then feed in at the 15 

## beginning of the next process the data and analysis. 16 

## Because I really do think it drives a lot 17 

## of kind of downstream issues, because from the 18 

## manufacturers' perspective I know that when it is not 19 

## clear what test procedure we should be kind of 20 

## testing to and utilizing, it really does drive a lot 21 

## of -- kind of confusion and lack of data as we're 22 

## trying to respond to some of the rulemaking type ofAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 54 1 

## needs. So anything we can do to kind of drive 2 

## resolution of the test procedure issues through kind 3 

## of a focused understanding of that, you know, if not 4 

## resolved by date X, then you won't have it for the 5 

## specific rulemaking. I think that might be helpful 6 

## to the process. 7 

## MR. deLASKI: I think that makes sense. 8 

## And I think that that's something. To work on, what 9 

## would be the sequencing that we would like to see 10 

## sort of in an ideal world. 11 

## And I like Jen's notion that you have to 12 

## have a mechanism to do fixes that everybody agrees 13 

## on, perhaps after that date, you know, so that you're 14 

## not 15 

## -- you know, if you complete it now in enough time, 16 

## you're going to test it for another seven or eight or 17 

## 10 years. But then everyone knows that you've got to 18 

## fix something, and the consensus is you want to have 19 

## a mechanism to do that as well. There's the 20 

## intention in there because then you're back to some 21 

## of the same problems potentially, but knowing that 22 

## there's still ambiguity, but hopefully we can addressAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 55 1 

## those kind of issues too. 2 

## Diane? 3 

## MS. JAKOBS: So one of the issues -- I'm 4 

## on test procedure committees and dealt with the 5 

## regulations, but one of the issues is that when you 6 

## change a test procedure your rating is going to 7 

## change on existing equipment. And you may or may not 8 

## -- even if it isn't at the minimum efficiency, it's 9 

## probably close to some efficiency where there's a 10 

## rebate or there's an Energy Star rating or something. 11 

## So you don't want to be the person -- we can't 12 

## backslide, so, you know, that means maybe the 13 

## efficiency is going down and where you met a hurdle, 14 

## where you met, you know, an Energy Star rating maybe 15 

## then in the future you would want to -- there's this 16 

## whole thing about the existing equipment. And so I 17 

## think generally we kind of just try to avoid changing 18 

## the test procedures too much because, number one, you 19 

## don't know where you'll end up with this whole 20 

## offering of equipment. 21 

## And then number two, you probably don't 22 

## know where all your competitors are, but there's thisAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 56 1 

## -- it's awkward -- you know, the test procedures come 2 

## into effect 180 days and then -- for everything. So 3 

## it would be good if it was possible to kind of stage 4 

## it in or for the water heaters we have this 5 

## conversion vector, you know, thing for a year. Or 6 

## some kind of mechanism to phase things in. Because 7 

## every time when we go to talk about a test procedure, 8 

## then there's a lot of talk about, oh, we have all 9 

## these models we have to retest. And that's a big 10 

## expense and in general it's not really productive for 11 

## us to just pin another number on the same piece of 12 

## equipment. 13 

## MR. deLASKI: John? 14 

## MR. CASKEY: Thanks, Andrew. John Caskey. 15 

## Just sort of curious. Sorry to throw this out there. 16 

## First of all, I think this is a very important topic 17 

## for me from our perspective. But the question really 18 

## deals with sort of procedures for today that I think 19 

## we can -- I mean, I would happily discuss this for a 20 

## couple hours if you wanted to, but then we've got 21 

## five or six other things on the list. 22 

## MR. deLASKI: Right.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 57 1 

## MR. CASKEY: Is the goal of today just to 2 

## discuss a little bit and scope it out? 3 

## MR. deLASKI: I think so. 4 

## MR. CASKEY: And then figure out, do we 5 

## want to create a task force or something to work on 6 

## it, and do we want to set like a time limit for each 7 

## of the topics of a half hour or 45 minutes and then 8 

## we move on from there? Like what are the next steps? 9 

## Because otherwise you might not give due credit to 10 

## the last two or three items. 11 

## MR. deLASKI: Right. Why don't we try to 12 

## wrap this one up in the next five minutes or so and 13 

## then move on to the next one. 14 

## MR. CASKEY: Okay. 15 

## MR. deLASKI: Thank you for that. 16 

## MR. CASKEY: It's hard for me not to do 17 

## that. 18 

## MR. deLASKI: No, I appreciate that. 19 

## Keep this moving. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want the 21 

## department's perspective? 22 

## MR. deLASKI: Yes. Ashley.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 58 1 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: That might be a little 2 

## different. Okay. So what I tried to do here, you 3 

## guys have a list and you have a list of -- what I put 4 

## on there was active rules as well as one coming down 5 

## the pike with the caveat that I do want to get an 6 

## opportunity to take one more look at the statute 7 

## before we actually publish this in the docket. But I 8 

## wanted to give you guys something today to at least 9 

## react to. 10 

## What you see is that DOE has a lot of 11 

## active test procedures, and one of the reasons for 12 

## that is that when the energy bill in 2007 was passed 13 

## it created a look-back provision that requires DOE to 14 

## consider -- review and consider revisions to its test 15 

## procedures at least once every seven years. So we 16 

## were required to review every single one of our test 17 

## procedures by 2014, and revise if it's needed. And I 18 

## don't think there's anyone at this table that could 19 

## argue that at least some revision to any one of them 20 

## wasn't needed. So that's the current state of 21 

## affairs. 22 

## I think I wholeheartedly agree with theAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 59 1 

## sentiment that in an ideal world DOE would be 2 

## finishing test procedures, especially test procedures 3 

## which I would call an overhaul or a major change that 4 

## would impact the measures of consumption before the 5 

## standards rule. But I think there's also the hand we 6 

## were dealt in reality. So, you know, I think there 7 

## needs to be some consideration of bridging that gap. 8 

## Where do we go from here? 9 

## You know, John likes to remind me every 10 

## time he sees me about my one, you know, Achilles heel 11 

## test procedure regarding off-mode, and I acknowledge 12 

## that is never an ideal scenario. That is never a 13 

## situation the department wants to be in. And 14 

## obviously -- yes, we just don't want to go there. 15 

## So wholeheartedly agree with that 16 

## sentiment. That being said, I have some 17 

## considerations that I'd like whatever committee comes 18 

## up with to keep in mind. I think we have issues that 19 

## are brought up in the context of rulemaking that we 20 

## defer because they will significantly change the 21 

## measures of consumption. But yet then they don't get 22 

## considered again until the next rule.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 60 1 

## One of those good examples is static 2 

## pressure. It's a topic coming up a lot these days. 3 

## And so then it comes up again and it's like, DOE, 4 

## you've known about this, you have to deal with this. 5 

## We have real-world data that says things have 6 

## changed. You haven't done anything yet. So I don't 7 

## know how we bridge the gap between, you know, 8 

## initiating those discussions earlier because some of 9 

## these test procedures that DOE is incorporating by 10 

## reference, especially certain sections of them, are 11 

## actually industry committee standards. And we want 12 

## to work with industry to use theirs, but we also need 13 

## industry to initiate that process earlier, and ASHRAE 14 

## and others. And we know sometimes how that can be a 15 

## little bit of a challenge. 16 

## I think another thing we find is that for 17 

## newly regulated products some people don't try the 18 

## testing until they have to comply. And then all of a 19 

## sudden it's we can't do something. What do we do? 20 

## We can't run your test procedure. And that's not 21 

## when we set standards. That's when they have to 22 

## actually comply with them. What do we do in thoseAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 61 1 

## cases? Obviously we have to fix that problem. How 2 

## do we fix it? 3 

## And then I think there's a third bucket 4 

## which has really come to light in the latest -- you 5 

## know, since DOE has really stood up an enforcement 6 

## program. And that's DOE started testing products, 7 

## and people aren't doing it the same way. People 8 

## aren't seeking guidance. In some cases they're 9 

## finding specific loopholes. And people will always 10 

## find loopholes. There will always be a loophole. We 11 

## try to minimize it, but no matter what, they exist. 12 

## There needs to be an acknowledgement of that. 13 

## But when we know there's a major loophole 14 

## and we need to close it, in that case the intent of 15 

## the test procedure was always there. It's just that 16 

## they took that liberty. So I will say, there are 17 

## certain pieces which I will call -- they may not -- 18 

## they should not change the measures of consumption. 19 

## They should just be clarification to our regs. But 20 

## if somebody was doing it incorrectly in the first 21 

## place, they are going to change the regs, and that's 22 

## the reality.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 62 1 

## So I think, you know, from DOE's 2 

## perspective we have a situation that for 60 covered 3 

## products DOE had to do test procedures for in seven 4 

## years. Some of those were overhauled, some of those 5 

## were new, some of those were different. The more 6 

## testing we do, the more questions, I would say, not 7 

## necessarily issues, but questions come about 8 

## regarding clarification. The more enforcement we do, 9 

## the more clarity is sought. 10 

## So I don't know how you reconcile this 11 

## with what's reality versus -- I agree wholeheartedly 12 

## that in an ideal world this is what we'd move to. 13 

## But this is the current state of affairs. 14 

## MR. MANDYCK: So, Ashley, thank you very 15 

## much. This is John Mandyck. So where are you in the 16 

## next seven-year cycle? 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think that's what 18 

## you're starting to see, the next seven-year cycle is 19 

## starting to kick in. For any rules that we 20 

## finalized, you know, that's what you're going to see 21 

## on some of these dates especially with some of the -- 22 

## some of Jen's products, some of the home appliancesAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 63 1 

## are going to start to kick in and kick off. We have 2 

## started a process of trying to kick them off like 3 

## early, but we're still at the point of pretty much 4 

## kicking them off concurrently with the hope of 5 

## finishing them much faster. We can certainly open 6 

## them up earlier. But a 7 

## lot of these that I'm looking at right now -- like 8 

## for example, we're triggered on your equipment, HVAC, 9 

## commercial, in 2016. Sure, we could start that 10 

## process now of working with AHRI to open up 34350, 11 

## and happy to do that. But they're off a little bit 12 

## with the standards and triggering. So, you know, 13 

## we're completely open to ideas here. But the 14 

## triggers are definitely kicking in and they kick in 15 

## every seven years at the very least. 16 

## MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck again. 17 

## I think this is good illustration on why we need to 18 

## do some introspection on this other side of the table 19 

## because, to me, this is a matter of physics. So we 20 

## collectively, through advocacy and through the 21 

## Congress have expanded the incline sufficiency 22 

## program to cover 60 categories and then we've layeredAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 64 1 

## on top of that requirements that either weren't 2 

## thought through or misunderstood or unrealistic such 3 

## that it's physics, they can't get it done, and the 4 

## consequences, we're feeling that, and we're 5 

## resonating around the table in the discussion we're 6 

## having. So, you know, when these energy bills come 7 

## up, you know, they only come it's like a shooting 8 

## star, right, they only come for a comet more 9 

## realistically. Everybody throws everything on it, 10 

## but when that happens, this is what you get. And we 11 

## get to a situation that is starting to become 12 

## untenable. So I think we just need to recognize that 13 

## and understand that, the rest of us, around the 14 

## table. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. And I think from 16 

## DOE's perspective, I'm not sure that it can't be 17 

## done. I don't know that I'm willing to throw in the 18 

## towel yet and say that it cannot be done. But I 19 

## think that you would get far more accomplished 20 

## working with you, and finding a way to work with you, 21 

## than doing it -- I mean, right now we're reacting to 22 

## industry methods. ASHRAE may pop out something someAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 65 1 

## time in ten years. As Charlie mentioned at the 2 

## outset, sometimes we adopt it, sometimes we don't. 3 

## Sometimes they do things that we can't adopt legally. 4 

## And I don't know how to -- you know, I do go to 5 

## ASHRAE, I do try to, when big issues come up, chime 6 

## in. Team at AHRI started engaging in that process. 7 

## I'm happy to do the same for other organizations, Jen 8 

## at AHAM or whatever. But I think that you have to be 9 

## open to major -- a request for major changes earlier 10 

## too. 11 

## MS. JAKOBS: I know on the furnace fan 12 

## rule, but I really appreciated it when AHRI, we 13 

## actually proposed the change to the test method and 14 

## we provided data to support that change and obviously 15 

## it was considered and even probably improvements were 16 

## made on it. If stakeholders can respond with data, I 17 

## completely believe that the Department responds, and 18 

## that putting myself in their shoes, that's what I 19 

## would want. And Ashley and the contractors too, they 20 

## always seem so thankful for any tidbit you can give 21 

## them. I provided data, I don't even know what the 22 

## last one was, but it was the -- I tried to provide itAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 66 1 

## as confidential business information. And then 2 

## according to the instructions it wasn't enough just 3 

## to do that, I had to have a document with it and then 4 

## a second document with what I thought was 5 

## confidential business information excluded, and it's 6 

## just a lot of time and effort. 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It is. It's difficult. 8 

## MR. deLASKI: I want to try to wrap this 9 

## one up in light of John's admonition that we cover 10 

## all seven topics. And it strikes me that, you know, 11 

## this is one that we do want to form a subgroup. 12 

## There's an element to this that we spent less time on 13 

## which is a data element. You know, but I think 14 

## they're quite related and that we're getting data to 15 

## inform test method revisions. As you know, getting 16 

## time takes money, and you need to know what's going 17 

## to happen if you're going to make efforts to gather 18 

## that kind of data to inform a change. 19 

## I think that the reason the Congress put 20 

## in the seven-year lookback is because many test 21 

## methods were just kind of stuff, and never getting 22 

## looked at, and it was sort of a process where youAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 67 1 

## kept rolling it over living with the errors that 2 

## everyone knew were there. And to put some effort on 3 

## the agency to get, in many instances the test methods 4 

## are controlled by the industry or by professional 5 

## associations. 6 

## The reasons that Diane I think described 7 

## quite well, often you get inertia. There's inertia 8 

## because, well, you know, it's working for me today 9 

## and I got my ratings and I changed the ratings, and 10 

## it upsets things. It upsets the applecart, you know. 11 

## So we need to have a way to disrupt the inertia to 12 

## get needed changes to happen. We can do it in a way 13 

## -- in a sequence in a way that works for industry and 14 

## works for transparency purposes. I think that's a 15 

## charge to the subgroup, is to think those issues 16 

## through and the various tensions we all just 17 

## described. 18 

## MR. ECKMAN: I think joining issue one and 19 

## five because they're part -- getting those test 20 

## procedures reflects real-world applications, is 21 

## really important, because you have both the test 22 

## procedure to get the energy efficiency method butAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 68 1 

## then you take that test procedure data and you apply 2 

## in the life cycle cost analysis, and if we don't have 3 

## both of those pieces together, the test procedure, it 4 

## can't -- number of cycles per year is a real big 5 

## driver both on the metric and the life cycle cost. 6 

## They are a conjoined problem and I think that -- so 7 

## taking one and five together as a scope for the 8 

## committee is probably best. 9 

## MR. deLASKI: Let's not take subcommittee 10 

## volunteers quite yet. Let's go through the topics 11 

## and that way people will have a chance to think 12 

## through. John? 13 

## MR. CASKEY: Just a clarification. I 14 

## wouldn't have naturally put one and five together, 15 

## but it sounds like we're moving to that consensus. 16 

## But with five, that also seems to get to what Ashley 17 

## was talking about relative to the input on analysis. 18 

## MR. ECKMAN: I think that's a -- 19 

## MR. CASKEY: Does that item that I was 20 

## counting as like number six or seven or eight, does 21 

## that get imbedded into this grouping also? Do you 22 

## think it's separate? Do you think one and fiveAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 69 1 

## should be combined? 2 

## Okay. 3 

## MR. ECKMAN: I took Ashley's comments to 4 

## be more broadly -- market data, the cost data, you 5 

## know, and things that industry provides like weighted 6 

## average efficiencies and equipment or whatever, 7 

## things like that that we use in the growth of the 8 

## analysis and the technology assessments that -- 9 

## (Laughter.) 10 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. So we're tackling 11 

## number two here. And, again, why don't we give 12 

## ourselves no more than say 15 minutes per topic so 13 

## we're sure to keep -- not to try to solve it, we're 14 

## trying to determine, you know, the need for a 15 

## subcommittee to spend time on it and the value. Need 16 

## and value, I think, are the issues here. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This is John, right? 18 

## MR. deLASKI: John, you described this for 19 

## us a couple times, I'm not sure you can describe it 20 

## again. 21 

## MR. CASKEY: This is near and dear to my 22 

## heart.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 70 

### 1 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. 2 

## MR. CASKEY: And just, I mean, to put it 3 

## in a nutshell -- and some of the things that I've 4 

## been directly involved with like transformers and 5 

## lighting and some other areas, maybe even part of 6 

## motors, but it seems like particularly in 7 

## transformers where it's sort of running out of the 8 

## cost-effective opportunities to improve energy 9 

## efficiency and getting up to 98 or 99 percent 10 

## efficiency. And in some of the product-oriented 11 

## things, which is I think we need to start looking at 12 

## systems and how things are controlled by systems and 13 

## to see if there are ways that we can get a little 14 

## more bang for the buck by having the controls and 15 

## things like that, that you were talking about for 16 

## lighting and other things that provide a lot more 17 

## energy efficiency improvements for a smaller amount 18 

## of money, than going from a relatively high 19 

## efficiency to a super high efficiency which just 20 

## becomes prohibitive for manufacturing. 21 

## MR. ECKMAN: You know, we sort of crossed 22 

## that bridge a little bit in the pump negotiationAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 71 1 

## where we got basically a pump defined largely as an 2 

## extended product. So it has all three pieces that 3 

## control the pump itself and the motor and all of 4 

## those are a pump, and I think fans will be similar to 5 

## that. So if we start getting into these defining the 6 

## product, you need more than the element that it would 7 

## be eventually the product. 8 

## MR. deLASKI: But in that instance, Tom, 9 

## pump manufacturers can sell a bare pump. 10 

## MR. ECKMAN: I'm just saying, we're moving 11 

## in that direction already in some products. I didn't 12 

## say that that's for sure, that's a first step, but I 13 

## think that we're seeing -- because that's where the 14 

## advantage is in the hydraulic efficiency improvements 15 

## are relative to what we could do in the motors and 16 

## drives and the controls. 17 

## MR. deLASKI: So essentially the standard 18 

## has two pathways, you can comply by selling a bare 19 

## pump that complies with the standard, or you can 20 

## comply selling this intended product that gets you 21 

## more of the system, and, indeed to get in a -- foster 22 

## the movement towards selling that or the market orAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 72 1 

## the programs can then foster by selling the extended 2 

## product which gives or more -- 3 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 4 

## MR. ECKMAN: Take advantage of, for market 5 

## full programs, to focus on the extended product so 6 

## that you go way ahead of the hydraulic efficiency 7 

## alone, you can improve upon it because it's kind of a 8 

## better motor control on it and incentive programs can 9 

## be driven -- that technology as opposed to just 10 

## hydraulic -- 11 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David Hungerford. 12 

## The challenge, of course, with that is that when you 13 

## start developing system products you end up defining 14 

## -- you either multiply the number of unique product 15 

## configurations you're regulating instead, and -- 16 

## that's a huge challenge, instead of the pump and the 17 

## control, three things, you're doing pool pumps, and 18 

## you're doing water recirculation pumps, and you're 19 

## doing pumps for different sorts of manufacturing 20 

## processes, all of which have very different duty 21 

## cycles, and very different loadings, very different 22 

## proportions or numbers in the population, veryAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 73 1 

## different change-out or rollover cycles and those 2 

## sorts of things. And it gets sort of mind-bending 3 

## pretty quickly. And so the sweet spot has to be 4 

## found there and some sort of way of defining what 5 

## that sweet spot looks like. Considering the system 6 

## issues while still making sure that they're broadly 7 

## applicable and that in general the efficiency flows 8 

## through to all of the different possible end use 9 

## categories and different configurations. I can't 10 

## imagine manufacturers want to test and deal with a 11 

## different standard for every single application of 12 

## the product. 13 

## And I can speak from the regulator's point 14 

## of view, that we don't want to have to draw up 15 

## different regulations and run different rulemakings 16 

## for hundreds of different unique form factors. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I make a suggestion 18 

## for this committee? Maybe this will help a little 19 

## bit. So I think maybe the first thing that this 20 

## subcommittee should do to the extent that we decide 21 

## to turn to a subcommittee to tackle this is to 22 

## actually identify the products for which the systemsAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 74 1 

## affect -- or system metrics may be most beneficial 2 

## and then compare that to the statutory definitions. 3 

## Because I think that that will get you your -- that 4 

## will help inform your perspective work plan. 5 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: Did we also bring up the 6 

## idea of identifying statutory definition problems? 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think I'm going to leave 8 

## it at that. But I think what you've seen from the 9 

## department is an interest in moving toward systems 10 

## where the AFUE is like pumps, like fans, but we also 11 

## have a statute that was created quite a bit ago and 12 

## is very specific with this other thing, so I think 13 

## this committee, as a first order of business, that 14 

## might be something to look at. 15 

## MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck. I 16 

## agree with all the comments that have been said. You 17 

## know, a category you could consider in this box would 18 

## be furnaces. So today, you know, we have actually 19 

## three standards we have to meet. We have to meet the 20 

## gas efficiency standard, the off mode standard, and 21 

## the consumer furnace fan standard. And so, you know, 22 

## and the gas efficiency we're getting very close toAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 75 1 

## what the maximum is. So this could be one area. 2 

## The statutory issues is a concern. The 3 

## broader concern I have is, if we move to a system 4 

## efficiency, then we have to agree to a system 5 

## efficiency and that's not a form efficiency metric. 6 

## That it can't be an everything above approach, so it 7 

## has to be we're either going to move this system 8 

## efficiency in a certain category, and that is the new 9 

## metric, but it can't be I'm going to have AFUE, off 10 

## mode, furnace fan and system efficiency data. 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And we have a backslide 12 

## issue. 13 

## MR. deLASKI: I think in the instance of 14 

## pumps, you know, that -- and that was an instance 15 

## where the DOE didn't have a definition, right. So 16 

## the agency was handed a pretty open hand by the 17 

## statute whereas in other instances, you know, a 18 

## fluorescent lamp is a fluorescent. And so even 19 

## though you might like to do something that was 20 

## suggested fluorescent lamp fixtures be shipped with a 21 

## control or something the AP doesn't have regulatory 22 

## authority to regulate fluorescent lamp fixtures, justAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 76 1 

## to give you an example. That may or may not be 2 

## accurate. But that's the kind of thing I think that 3 

## you're suggesting that we have to take a look at and 4 

## see where are the systems opportunities. 5 

## MR. HUNGERFORD: Well, in California we're 6 

## finding we have to -- that that sort of comes into 7 

## play with our building efficiency standards. And 8 

## that's where those kinds of things are addressed, 9 

## where a light, a lighting system or control, is 10 

## separately regulated, but installation, in order to 11 

## install these things in a new building, they have to 12 

## be set up in a particular way and they have to be 13 

## tested, and they have to be signed off on how those 14 

## things are organized and put together, how the 15 

## systems are put together. But, again, that is 16 

## building efficiency standards, not compliance 17 

## standards. 18 

## MR. deLASKI: Other thoughts on this 19 

## topic? 20 

## (No response.) 21 

## MR. ECKMAN: I agree. Just going through 22 

## a list of the products that are regulated to seeAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 77 1 

## which ones are amenable to that, but don't have a 2 

## statutory construction issue as the first step. 3 

## There may be options there, there may not, but at 4 

## least you queue those up where they might be -- there 5 

## may be some of these where you've got an integrated 6 

## product that is a piece of laundry equipment that has 7 

## a component built in, and that's easy. But where 8 

## you've got a lighting system that's three or four 9 

## components that are already separately and regulated, 10 

## maybe it's not so straightforward. So it's worth 11 

## taking a look to see where there are options. That 12 

## may be inhibited by a test procedure or just the 13 

## efficiency metric we have now, but that's how we -- 14 

## you have three things in a furnace that are 15 

## regulated. AFUE is a big number if you actually -- 16 

## it's all energy in, energy out -- who doesn't that 17 

## encompass all the energy, you know, it says that in 18 

## the statute, but we should decide to put it into 19 

## pieces. Why isn't it all three components combined? 20 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 21 

## MR. deLASKI: -- from the 1970s or '80s -- 22 

## MR. ECKMAN: but was it a DOEAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 78 1 

## determination or was it Congress? 2 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. 3 

## MR. ECKMAN: Just how we defined the test 4 

## procedure. I've always wondered why Pan Energy 5 

## wasn't part of AFUE. Well, it isn't a heat pump, 6 

## it's not on a furnace. Why is that? It's an HSPF. 7 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 8 

## (Laughter.) 9 

## MR. ECKMAN: I know. 10 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. So just -- 11 

## we're talking about having -- well, components that 12 

## have been historically accounted for individually, 13 

## now we should do it as a system. The other thing, 14 

## we're doing the other thing too where we've looked at 15 

## the commercial HVAC and now there's talk, you know, 16 

## are we going to look at the blower by itself? So 17 

## we're kind of debundling and we're bundling, you 18 

## know, so we're doing both. But the more restrictive 19 

## it is, the more difficult it is to innovate. And I 20 

## think that's a portion of what we're all looking 21 

## towards, the future, what are we going to do next? 22 

## And I just can't believe when we get to the 99Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 79 1 

## percent for AFUE that that is the very best furnaces 2 

## will ever do, you know, it doesn't make any sense. 3 

## It's just a limitation of that test procedure. So 4 

## what is the mechanism to get unstuck where we can 5 

## start? 6 

## In our lab, the people working with the 7 

## equipment, they all want a heat pump and a gas 8 

## furnace. So they want the gas furnace instead of the 9 

## resistance heat for backup. That is what everyone is 10 

## thirsting for, you know, and that's not even a class. 11 

## That's someone in -- has to be in the know to even 12 

## understand what the benefits of that are. So, how 13 

## are we doing people a disservice by not letting them 14 

## know that that is a possible option, you know. It 15 

## all depends on who your installer is and how up to 16 

## date they are. You know, is that part of the mission 17 

## too -- do we stick in these same classes that were 18 

## put into place when my dad was in, you know, my 19 

## position now? You know, or are we looking -- are we 20 

## learning from what we've done in the last 30 years? 21 

## Are we moving forward and understanding that if --- 22 

## who are we trying to help?Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 80 1 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. Anything else on this 2 

## topic? 3 

## (No response.) 4 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. It strikes me that 5 

## there is some overlap with the prior topic, right. 6 

## So if you can -- to the extent that you can address 7 

## controls and that you may be able to capture more 8 

## systems opportunities if you can expand the metric, 9 

## you may have some limits to what you can do within 10 

## the legal construct. Often capturing systems 11 

## opportunities, if you can capture them in the metric, 12 

## then you can capture them. 13 

## Okay. The next topic. Let's make sure 14 

## there are folks on the phone, Jennifer and Kelley, do 15 

## you have any input on this one? 16 

## MS. KLINE: This is Kelley. I don't. 17 

## MS. CLEARY: Nor do I. 18 

## MR. deLASKI: The next one is interaction 19 

## of DOE standard with other regulatory work that I 20 

## commented on and Diane brought up, interactions with 21 

## ASHRAE and Deborah added IECC. 22 

## MR. ECKMAN: Other organizations.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 81 1 

## MS. MILLER: I'm waiting for somebody to 2 

## bring up other agencies. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: EPA, they were in there. 4 

## FTC -- 5 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 6 

## MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I think at the last 7 

## meeting someone -- I think it was -- not here now. I 8 

## agree with you, the FTC and the energy guide label 9 

## and reporting to FTC some appliances, many 10 

## appliances. 11 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. There's 12 

## another issue that's coming into fruition here, and 13 

## that is possible grid control of appliances. That 14 

## can be a major impact because we're taking them if 15 

## they're controlled in certain ways and putting them 16 

## in a nonefficient -- 17 

## MS. MILLER: This is Deborah. I mean, I 18 

## was thinking on the last thing too, I think, Tom, you 19 

## had talked about new technologies, and maybe I'm just 20 

## overenthusiastic about the future or not, but I just 21 

## think from looking at so many new products, I mean, 22 

## so many new technologies, I mean, just think aboutAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 82 1 

## also not only with respect to the products, but also, 2 

## you know, off-grid applications, energy storage, I 3 

## mean, there's so much going on right now that can 4 

## affect whether this program will be effective or not. 5 

## So there are broad issues, that I think one should 6 

## look into them. They're almost massive it's 7 

## difficult to put your arms around it. 8 

## I think we will have to stay on the level 9 

## of -- as you were saying, things that are going on 10 

## with the state as well as other bodies whose 11 

## standards or methodologies affect these products. 12 

## MR. deLASKI: In my experience in many DOE 13 

## dockets, you know, there typically is a section of 14 

## the -- or document or maybe a rule, that sort of does 15 

## this run-through of here's what else is out there, 16 

## you know, regulatory, in a regulatory world that 17 

## affects this product, including state standards, 18 

## including -- I guess an EPA program or not. 19 

## MS. MILLER: Does it get into -- and, 20 

## again, I haven't looked at one of these in a while, 21 

## but does it get into the actual real impacts of that? 22 

## This is Deborah.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 83 1 

## My sense was before we would sometimes 2 

## mention them. Again, this was many years ago. But I 3 

## wonder, other than ASHRAE and a few others, just 4 

## whether there's a way to evaluate the impacts. 5 

## MR. deLASKI: Maybe this is question for 6 

## Ashley to give us, you know, and like the last 7 

## question which -- what does the agency do now to look 8 

## at the gamut of regulatory action that's affecting a 9 

## given product and how that interacts with the 10 

## agency's work? 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think I can fully 12 

## answer that given the current state of affairs in 13 

## terms of what's going on with the Department with 14 

## regards to this issue. But I can tell you that we do 15 

## look at cumulative regulatory burden, and most cases 16 

## it's a qualitative-type assessment. In certain 17 

## limited cases we have done a more quantitative 18 

## assessment. With regards to certification, I think 19 

## we've made pretty great strides with FCC such that 20 

## you now only have to certify as one, which is DOE, 21 

## and that satisfies both. We're engaged in those 22 

## conversations with CEC actively to figure outAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 84 1 

## something on that front as well. I know there's at 2 

## least a desire from both of our parts to find out a 3 

## more streamlined process that would work better for 4 

## manufacturers. So we're actively working it. 5 

## With regard to FTC, I think it's fair to 6 

## say that DOE and FTC work pretty closely together. 7 

## You know, I've heard some timing issues in terms of 8 

## test procedure changes and labeling, but I think -- 9 

## and for the most part Hampton is fairly engaged in 10 

## our process and engaged as early as you could want 11 

## him to be. So I'm not -- obviously it opens the 12 

## discussions there, but I think that was actually 13 

## working pretty well. Other than that, I think that's 14 

## pretty much -- 15 

## MS. MILLER: So you're doing your more 16 

## than due diligence with other agencies. The question 17 

## is -- I'm putting words in your mouth you just raised 18 

## your eyebrows. I'm being kind, Ashley. You're doing 19 

## your due diligence as best as possible right now. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so I think it's fair 21 

## to say that we do try actively to coordinate with 22 

## other federal agencies when we know either regulatoryAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 85 1 

## or voluntary programs will be impacted by what we're 2 

## doing. 3 

## Now, that being said, I think that some 4 

## people may contend that they would like to see it 5 

## taken a step further. And I think that's where -- 6 

## there has been instances where that's happened. 7 

## There have been other instances where, you know, DOE 8 

## has, within its purview, a certain thing and a 9 

## statutory authority to do a certain thing and 10 

## statutory responsibility to move forward in certain 11 

## instances. 12 

## But I would say in my opinion the level of 13 

## coordination that's happening now is far greater than 14 

## when I first started, at least that I'm aware of. I 15 

## don't know if you guys have experienced that as being 16 

## on the other side, but we're trying. 17 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. There's a 18 

## couple things going on here that DOE has no control 19 

## over whatsoever. And just because DOE may be 20 

## functioning trying to engage with other groups 21 

## doesn't mean other groups are trying to engage with 22 

## DOE. So it's a two-way street that we bear on that,Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 86 1 

## meaning we're talking fairly here, because DOE is -- 2 

## I know that -- because I've seen interactions come in 3 

## several different directions. But sometimes it's the 4 

## other groups not necessarily having their direction 5 

## set which gives DOE fits. A typical example of that 6 

## right now was refrigerants, they're running hot, 7 

## because EPA SNAP program is in a major flux on what 8 

## they're approving and what they're not approving. 9 

## The industry as a whole, because of global warming 10 

## information popping up left and right, and global 11 

## warming issues being faced by the State Department 12 

## and the EPA, are in flux as well. And DOE is stuck 13 

## with a situation where they're trying to regulate 14 

## products not knowing what refrigerants are going to 15 

## be available to the manufacturers, and the 16 

## manufacturer is in the same category, not knowing 17 

## which alternative refrigerants are going to be 18 

## available in the foreseeable future. Some of those 19 

## alternatives are more efficient, some of those 20 

## alternatives are less efficient. And as such, DOE, 21 

## if they regulate off a more efficient product, if 22 

## it's available, that doesn't hurt anything. But ifAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 87 1 

## it only fits into part of the category, then DOE is 2 

## trying to figure out what the less efficient product 3 

## is even though it's really not defined yet because 4 

## the product has not been field-tested over the long 5 

## term in equipment. So then the industry is running 6 

## around here going, oh, what do we do next? And 7 

## that's happening right now. It's a very, very 8 

## high-level problem for refrigeration and air 9 

## conditioning and we end up with, again, the cascade 10 

## issues because the new refrigerants do not fit the 11 

## old mold because of climatability issues, safety 12 

## issues. Suddenly local codes now become a roadblock 13 

## to manufacturers because they may not -- even though 14 

## they can meet federal standards for these products, 15 

## they may not meet local standards for these products 16 

## because local standards may be eight to ten years 17 

## behind on schedule. So the local standard says you 18 

## can't use an A3 refrigerant. Or the local standard 19 

## says you can't use an A2 or an A2L refrigerant in an 20 

## air conditioning system, yet there's no alternative 21 

## but that. 22 

## So we're in a real quandary at that level.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 88 1 

## And I don't want to be critical. I'll 2 

## support DOE on this because DOE has reached out 3 

## extensively trying to figure out what's going on 4 

## there, but some of these other agencies don't even 5 

## know where they're going yet. So that leaves DOE in 6 

## a big lurch. 7 

## MR. deLASKI: I don't want to get too far 8 

## into this issue, I mean, other than, you know, we're 9 

## trying to scope it out for this topic. And I know 10 

## the sensitivity of the SNAP rules which I think you 11 

## can't comment on because it's something -- EPA's 12 

## proposed rule or final rule went to OMB this week. 13 

## MR. HON: The proposed finding. 14 

## MR. deLASKI: The proposed finding. It's 15 

## the final rule. So under -- OMB manages interagency 16 

## coordination. So that's why she can't comment 17 

## because they're in this phase of interagency 18 

## coordination which probably has been informal as I 19 

## understand it, it's an informal phase before now and 20 

## now it's in a formal phase. Deborah has been in this 21 

## seat so she can probably nod her head to the process 22 

## where the agencies comment on other agency's rules inAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 89 1 

## the OMB process. We don't know what that final rule 2 

## says. I don't -- you guys have been deeply engaged 3 

## and Charlie, you and I have talked offline about 4 

## this. Many of you have been in D.C. a lot to work on 5 

## the SNAP regulations. 6 

## So, you know, that train is kind of moving 7 

## along, right. So the question, I guess, for us is, 8 

## is there a role for this group on this kind of topic? 9 

## MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck. That 10 

## train is moving along for a fraction of the products 11 

## covered by the appliance programs. The determination 12 

## has zero impact right now on air conditioning. 13 

## So it will be an ongoing issue. And I 14 

## think the two points I would make is, one, there's 15 

## the obvious technical impact of, okay, what 16 

## refrigerant do you choose and what efficiency does it 17 

## yield? So there's that. But then there's the 18 

## economic impact of -- is the industry forced to 19 

## redesign the same product twice in a too-short of a 20 

## period that doesn't make economic sense? So in other 21 

## words, every new minimum efficiency standard drives 22 

## an enormous investment in the industry. Any newAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 90 1 

## refrigerant standard drives an enormous investment in 2 

## the industry. The issue is that if those happen on a 3 

## collision course, or ones that are back to back, now 4 

## you're placing significant economic burden on the 5 

## industry. So that coordination is what's important. 6 

## And the good news is, at the White House event in 7 

## September where several manufacturers and trade 8 

## associations stood up and declared voluntary 9 

## commitments to reducing greenhouse gas impacts on 10 

## products, the secretary and the administrator were 11 

## both there, this issue -- Administrator McCarthy 12 

## said, "What can we do to make sure that we see more 13 

## of this progress?" And one of the participants said, 14 

## "We need better coordination between DOE and EPA for 15 

## this very reason." So it was heard at the highest 16 

## levels. And actually they both agreed publicly at 17 

## that meeting to examining a process to make sure that 18 

## they are coordinated. So it's an open door I think 19 

## that we can go back on. I'm not sure we can solve 20 

## it, but there is, at least at the highest levels some 21 

## receptivity to the issue. 22 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jen. I think,Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 91 1 

## Andrew, you asked whether this was something that the 2 

## group should continue to discuss. And I think in my 3 

## view, I agree with Ashley, I think they're working 4 

## hard on coordination and though I don't think that 5 

## this is something that ASRAC should continue to 6 

## pursue. I think that this is for comments and 7 

## individual rulemaking to indicate to DOE when they 8 

## think there needs to be increased coordination and I 9 

## think that because this also involves other agencies 10 

## that the comments should also be involved in getting 11 

## those other agencies to the table with DOE. So, you 12 

## know, I think the processes are already in place and 13 

## I don't really see much of a role for us here. I 14 

## think we have other more important topics on our 15 

## list. 16 

## MR. deLASKI: And, again, I don't work 17 

## myself on the SNAP regulations. So I'm relatively 18 

## novice on that particular topic. So -- and it sounds 19 

## like as you just described there's a sequencing that 20 

## we're going to see another SNAP rule coming down the 21 

## pike in some time frame to address HVAC refrigerants. 22 

## What's the time frame for that?Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 92 1 

## MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck. We're 2 

## just going to continue to see several SNAP and this 3 

## is going to be an ongoing process. This is the first 4 

## one that we've seen in a while to this degree. It 5 

## may or may not get challenged. So that's an open 6 

## question mark, too. We don't know the schedules that 7 

## DOE -- EPA is going to follow by which product would 8 

## refrigerant -- but it is out there. 9 

## But I guess I would take a little bit of a 10 

## different view. I think this is something that the 11 

## ASRAC should look, please don't focus just on the 12 

## refrigerant issue that we just talked about. There 13 

## are much broader issues. FTC was mentioned. ASHRAE 14 

## was mentioned. I think it warrants at least a 15 

## subcommittee discussion to say, if nothing else, what 16 

## are all the coordination points that are important to 17 

## get good effective rules out the door and at least to 18 

## be cognizant of that road map, because I'm not sure I 19 

## even know what all of them are today. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. 21 

## I don't necessarily have an opinion about whether 22 

## ASRAC should charter subcommittees or not. I thinkAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 93 1 

## that, you know, we have a pretty high area of 2 

## coordination with regards to other agencies, both 3 

## their voluntary programs and their regulatory 4 

## programs are pretty tuned in right now. I obviously 5 

## welcome comments on that, but I think what I do see 6 

## lacking is how -- and this is more on the test 7 

## procedures side is engaging ASHRAE, AHRI, IEC, AHAM, 8 

## the bodies that -- the CFA, the bodies that actually 9 

## do develop industry consensus of base test procedures 10 

## for which then get passed to DOE for consideration 11 

## for review, proposal, and being essentially adoption, 12 

## I think that is completely disconnected right now. 13 

## And I really think that we could have a 14 

## much greater impact focusing on that, if you want my 15 

## personal opinion. 16 

## MR. deLASKI: So say again, what's the 17 

## disconnect? What two things are disconnected? 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think -- well, I think 19 

## it's more than two, but I think the timing is 20 

## disconnected. I think content is disconnected. I 21 

## think what people think DOE can do and what DOE can 22 

## do are two different things. I think there is a lackAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 94 1 

## of -- and this is not necessarily across the board. 2 

## So I'm just rattling things off. But I think there's 3 

## a -- not necessarily a feedback group to some of the 4 

## wider-level issues that are brought up in the rules, 5 

## then keying them up into the next iteration of 6 

## industry test procedures. I think that -- you know, 7 

## I'm not sure how to get that process up and running. 8 

## We're trying -- we have been trying to get 9 

## more involved in committees, you know, in industry 10 

## committees and going to them. There are some 11 

## limitations in terms of the feedback DOE can give 12 

## outside of its rulemaking processes. There are legal 13 

## limitations, but that being said, I still think our 14 

## involvement could have an impact and we could do this 15 

## better. 16 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs. I'm on 17 

## a bunch of these committees and I think there's a 18 

## real lack of understanding about what the 19 

## interactions are. Someone mentioned before maybe we 20 

## could do a white paper. People on the committees 21 

## don't understand what the impact is. And I've been 22 

## on committees where, oh, we have to have this done byAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 95 

### 1 

## this and this date so DOE can use it. And it's I 2 

## guess way too late. So -- 3 

## MR. deLASKI: You mean, they're too late 4 

## for the DOE process? 5 

## MS. JAKOBS: Yeah, we think we're working 6 

## for the DOE process and we are way off the mark. So 7 

## we feel like we're responding, but -- 8 

## MR. deLASKI: If you could imagine some 9 

## sort of -- I don't know whether DOE and this gets 10 

## back to what your legal opportunities are, but what 11 

## constraints you have which is almost we want to like 12 

## publish or provide some sort of guidance to the test 13 

## bodies so that they know, for example, we've got to 14 

## have a single metric be would be an example. 15 

## MS. MILLER: Or we would like you to work 16 

## on this or -- I don't know. 17 

## MR. deLASKI: Well, there could be 18 

## guidance that would be more from across the board. 19 

## Here DOE's legal limitations, which, of course, 20 

## sometimes they don't want to put black-and-white ink 21 

## because then they're patting themselves down in the 22 

## future. We might not agree with interpretations, orAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 96 1 

## you might not agree with interpretations. 2 

## But then also to more specifics where a 3 

## given topic or a given review or a given technology. 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think those are all 5 

## fair. Feedback loops are definitely important. But 6 

## I just think more broadly a general understanding of 7 

## even the currency of DOE reps is not there by the 8 

## people that are writing these test procedures. And I 9 

## will say one of the examples that I was pretty 10 

## surprised by was something that you've already 11 

## brought up was at the furnace test procedure. I 12 

## mean, we mostly proposed to adopt a 2007-ish version 13 

## of an ASRAE standard and we got the book thrown at 14 

## us. I was like, Lord, because I just figured that -- 15 

## I was very surprised, let's put it that way. You 16 

## know, people were like, we're not sure what this does 17 

## yet. Yeah, ASRAE did it, but we haven't used it yet. 18 

## Really? I mean, so I was pretty surprised, let's put 19 

## it that way. That was an interesting, eye-opening 20 

## experience. So I think it would be worthwhile for 21 

## those that actually are involved in the manufacturing 22 

## community to have that conversation about, you know,Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 97 1 

## how do we bridge this gap? 2 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. There's 3 

## another issue that needs to be discussed, and that's 4 

## having been involved in a national committee that is 5 

## involved and is one of the discussions in this group 6 

## because it is a standard, I guess having been on that 7 

## committee for 12 years, we have never seen a written 8 

## request for change that's submitted by the public. 9 

## The only change discussions come from within the 10 

## committee by the members of the committee. 11 

## MS. MILLER: Who can understand it? I 12 

## mean, that's the problem, with all due respect. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I know, she's 14 

## absolutely right though, DOE has never submitted 15 

## anything in writing to the committees. And that's 16 

## something I can take back and ask if we could do 17 

## that. 18 

## MR. HON: That's the first question I have 19 

## because there may be legal issues there. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I don't know. I 21 

## mean, I can definitely take that back and ask, is 22 

## there a way. I know that I participated inAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 98 1 

## committees and verbally emphasized areas for which I 2 

## think should be looked at definitely, you know, and I 3 

## think we've participated in committees and provided 4 

## feedback of drafts where we asked a lot of questions. 5 

## But maybe we have not take a regulatory position on 6 

## it. And so I think those are definitely options for 7 

## us. But I'll see if we can formally write letters. 8 

## We have written a couple letters in the 9 

## ASHRAE context with regards to 90.1 stuff, but not 10 

## necessarily what you and I are thinking of in terms 11 

## of our laundry list. 12 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon again. The 13 

## reason I am suggesting that is because there is never 14 

## different processes. This comes in, in a verbal 15 

## comment. It can be discussed very quickly and wiped 16 

## off the table. If it comes in written comment it has 17 

## to be completely processed, responded to and reviewed 18 

## by higher level people in ASHRAE to verify what's 19 

## going on. And as such it will get much more scrutiny 20 

## and much more realistic review. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Thanks. 22 

## MR. ECKMAN: But as we look toward thisAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 99 1 

## comment of, I think, looking at list and we can 2 

## identify some test procedures that are early on in 3 

## the queue, having a work program at DOE that 4 

## identifies these test procedures we think where there 5 

## are needed changes that would be really helpful that 6 

## the industry is working on and here's the time frame, 7 

## by which we would need your sage advice as to how to 8 

## move on that and that in order to be in our process 9 

## so that when we can take the next step -- regulation. 10 

## I think part of this is just getting the sequence of 11 

## what the private sector is doing and what DOE is 12 

## doing in a linear way instead of parallel processing 13 

## which tends not to work very well. 14 

## MR. deLASKI: I'm wondering whether this 15 

## issue of better coordination with test method bodies 16 

## is something that belongs grouped back with item one? 17 

## It's really a question of, you know, again back to 18 

## this question of sequencing and improving test 19 

## methods. 20 

## MS. JAKOBS: The problem is, one is 21 

## getting so large now that you're needing 22 

## subcommittees -- subcommittees on one, it's true.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 100 1 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Our whole committee could 2 

## do one. 3 

## MS. MILLER: Yeah, yeah. 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: If you want to know the 5 

## outcome of today's meeting. 6 

## (Laughter.) 7 

## MR. deLASKI: Well, maybe we're zeroing in 8 

## on what is a good work area for subcommittees. 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that would be 10 

## great. Being the person at the Department who is in 11 

## charge of test procedures, I would welcome that. 12 

## MR. deLASKI: And we would have to support 13 

## doing that work. So -- 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I would. 15 

## And then your recommendation would come to 16 

## me. 17 

## THE COURT REPORTER: I have to change a 18 

## battery, if you don't mind, that will just take me a 19 

## minute. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We have two options, we 21 

## can have a break, we can break for lunch, it's noon. 22 

## This might be a good time with herAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 101 1 

## changing the battery. 2 

## MR. deLASKI: Great time. 3 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 4 

## (Whereupon, at 12:00 p.m., the meeting was 5 

## recessed to reconvene this same day at 1:00 p.m.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 102 1 

## A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 

## (1:12 p.m.) 3 

## MR. deLASKI: I think we're going to get 4 

## started here. We had finished -- I think we had 5 

## gotten to number three, and we came to a 6 

## determination of what our action item was. I would 7 

## suggest that one action item on number three, before 8 

## we come back to this notion of we're going to create 9 

## subgroups to work to address. I think there was a 10 

## suggestion that this committee can play a role in 11 

## ensuring that if there are areas that DOE should be 12 

## coordinating with that they're not coordinating with 13 

## to identify additional areas they should be be 14 

## looking to coordinate with, that would be a useful 15 

## function for us. There's already lots of 16 

## coordination going on. But if something is not going 17 

## on, by all means, let's make sure it gets on the 18 

## table. 19 

## I don't know that we need to be -- is 20 

## there anything else that people are aware of that 21 

## agency think needs to coordinate with that wasn't 22 

## discussed in our prior conversations?Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 103 1 

## (No response.) 2 

## MR. deLASKI: And is there a need for sort 3 

## of -- maybe this is an ongoing check, it may be. Is 4 

## there a need for a committee on that task as there is 5 

## as this is an ongoing function perhaps for a future 6 

## agenda item. 7 

## So let's move ahead then if there's no 8 

## further comment on three to item number four. 9 

## MR. MANDYCK: So I'm sorry. So you're 10 

## suggesting that we don't form a group or -- 11 

## MR. deLASKI: I was suggesting on this 12 

## particular -- on that narrow issue of -- are there 13 

## additional areas that DOE needs to coordinate with, 14 

## that that -- it seemed that that itself needed a 15 

## group. That narrow question. 16 

## MR. MANDYCK: Because there's an open 17 

## question about ASHRAE. 18 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Perhaps we do one of two 20 

## things, either form a different group or lump it with 21 

## number one. 22 

## (Laughter.)Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 104 1 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Because, I mean, it's 2 

## going to be all about -- 3 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: -- timing and engaging 5 

## other groups that, you know, have, I would say, the 6 

## primary responsibility for the industry side test 7 

## procedures and it's larger, I mean, we have AHAM test 8 

## procedures incorporated by reference. We have AHRI 9 

## test procedures incorporated by reference. Number 10 

## one is just blowing up. 11 

## MR. MANDYCK: Right. This is John 12 

## Mandyck. This is -- I guess what I was thinking of is 13 

## beyond this. So, for example, you know, we spend 14 

## ASHRAE and the people involved with it spend several 15 

## years getting to a point where we have commercial 16 

## rooftop standards and we're just starting to -- we're 17 

## just spinning the wheel again and doing it all over. 18 

## So I think there is an issue about for covered 19 

## products. Is that the best way to do it? Is to 20 

## dedicate a ton of time that's ultimately just thrown 21 

## out the door and you start all over again. 22 

## MR. deLASKI: Isn't that -- I think IAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 105 1 

## understand what happened, but DOE is functioning 2 

## under specific statutory allegations for the ASHRAE 3 

## products. But I don't know what it is -- I understand 4 

## that that needs attention and that the -- over how 5 

## that process has been and to go into the next 6 

## iteration, you know, -- how that process works. 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I will say that I have 8 

## actively volunteered myself and John -- you didn't 9 

## know this -- to come to 90.1 and explain to them how 10 

## our process works. It has been tabled for their 11 

## response. So if you think that would be helpful to 12 

## get them to understand how many different products 13 

## work, how we are triggered, what our deadlines are, 14 

## kind of what's coming down the pike, how they can 15 

## engage in that process and what DOE's 16 

## responsibilities still are above and beyond what 17 

## ASHRAE does, I thought that would have been helpful 18 

## because that's what I see as the lack of 19 

## understanding kind of how it works. But you might 20 

## want to touch base with them. 21 

## MR. deLASKI: I'm not on the ASHRAE 90.1, 22 

## but I'm not even on ASHRAE but 90.1 is 80 people, 100Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 106 1 

## people -- it's huge. 2 

## MS. JAKOBS: Yeah, it's huge. 3 

## MR. deLASKI: It's huge. So, right, it 4 

## may be -- my point wasn't necessarily just DOE, but 5 

## the -- excuse me -- advocate community signed off on 6 

## 90.1. Then when I got the DOE it's not enough to 7 

## trigger the thing and so that's my point, there seems 8 

## to be -- it's an imperfect and inefficient process if 9 

## we're going to spend all of our time and energy 10 

## trying to get the consensus on ASHRAE standards that 11 

## we think is sound with all the parties are at the 12 

## table and then when it kicks the DOE, people have a 13 

## change of heart and then we have to go through it all 14 

## over again. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't want to take a 16 

## deep dive into what happened, but I will say that we 17 

## gave a presentation about five years ago to the 18 

## ASHRAE committee about -- it was right, I think 19 

## before some of the statutory language was changed 20 

## about what hasn't happened for a lot of products in a 21 

## while and kind of what DOE's triggering obligations 22 

## were. So there's a difference in opinion about DOE'sAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 107 1 

## triggering obligations. I think that's where -- and 2 

## so that being said, though, I think it's really about 3 

## education, in my opinion. The statute says what it 4 

## says. Our lawyers aren't going to be laboring on 5 

## that one. But we're happy to explain what we think 6 

## our interpretation is, or what our requirements are 7 

## and how we can facilitate that role and how we can 8 

## work better to march through the process together 9 

## which is what I offered to do. 10 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. So 12 

## I don't think that's the point where the schedule is 13 

## yet, but I mean, clearly we've laid out, you know, 14 

## there's -- the ASHRAE triggered and that's not magic, 15 

## right. The ASHRAE people on those committees know 16 

## when the next DOE obligation is or NOPR. So whatever 17 

## work they're doing on a particular product, I hope 18 

## they know when DOE's trigger to act if ASHRAE does 19 

## it. So those are the two mechanisms for DOE to have 20 

## to do a rule. Ashley mentioned there's some 21 

## difference of opinion on the lookback or whatnot. 22 

## Clearly we -- I think we stated our legalAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 108 1 

## position. 2 

## MR. deLASKI: And I wonder to some extent 3 

## whether -- I guess I want to say a couple things. 4 

## One is that I didn't participate in ASHRAE 90.1 and I 5 

## haven't -- I don't know -- I don't think there's 6 

## broad participation from people who I typically work 7 

## with. There is some participation. 8 

## And the thing that occurs to me is that 9 

## there's need for education kind on all sides, meaning 10 

## that there may be advocates that need to be educated 11 

## as well as to what sort of -- you know, how this 12 

## works. No one has the book. No one seems to 13 

## understand the entire -- for the people who thought 14 

## that what they were doing to lead to a certain 15 

## outcome and didn't get to that outcome, that clearly 16 

## explains why people are disappointed; right? So 17 

## then, just to make sure it doesn't happen again in 18 

## the next iteration. And the best way to do that is 19 

## to understand what does the ASHRAE need to do in 20 

## order to get an outcome that people might be 21 

## interested in? A standard that doesn't meet the 22 

## statutory criteria is going to trigger -- people thatAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 109 1 

## can't know what DOE is going to determine what 2 

## triggers it. That it isn't like the advocates and 3 

## ASHRAE decide whether it triggers or not. 4 

## What decides is the analysis of the number 5 

## -- is going to be their analysis. So we have to 6 

## understand that this is not some sort of -- ASHRAE 7 

## doesn't ever foreclose DOE obligation to do an 8 

## analysis that determines what the statute says. I 9 

## can't remember, but there is a standard that has to 10 

## be -- there's a little lower standard, I think, but 11 

## there's still a standard. 12 

## Clear and convincing evidence which is 13 

## different than the other standard. But, you know, 14 

## there's meaning behind all that that we can't be 15 

## willing to parse today, but will be useful to parse 16 

## if we're involved in the next iteration. I mean, 17 

## that's separate. 18 

## It's somewhat -- it's bounded to the 19 

## ASHRAE and set of ASHRAE products. So it strikes me 20 

## that that's something that we want to recommend to 21 

## the ASHRAE, you know. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know what's theAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 110 1 

## best way to do it -- whether to do it through 90.1 or 2 

## do it through AHRI or or do it and DOE can host it 3 

## separately here. I mean whatever works. I'm sure we 4 

## can find a way to make it happen. I thought it was a 5 

## good idea. 6 

## MR. deLASKI: And the other thing that 7 

## occurs to me is that as we started this negotiation 8 

## which is now part of our working group dealing with 9 

## commercial air conditioners and furnaces, which is 10 

## two of the products in ASHRAE universe, that there's 11 

## been interest in that discussion about how do we -- 12 

## is there -- there may be space in that discussion 13 

## that takes some of this on as part of that working 14 

## group. It's not our core mandate but this discussion 15 

## of how to do this better next time, I think is fair 16 

## game for that working group and that's where a lot of 17 

## the parties are already together. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I do want to highlight one 19 

## thing and it has little to do with this discussion 20 

## other than I think Don would have an interest in this 21 

## if he looks at the standards. You know, there are 22 

## certain equipment in ASHRAE that are supposed to beAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 111 1 

## initiated this year for DOE that are triggered. So 2 

## evaporated cooled, water cooled, VRS, and computer 3 

## room air conditioners and the ASHRAE process is not 4 

## necessarily -- you know, we go back and forth whether 5 

## DOE can do it faster or ASHRAE can do it faster. 6 

## MR. deLASKI: You're triggered by the 7 

## look-back provision? Jim. 8 

## MR. CRAWFORD: I'm going to make an 9 

## observation. Jim Crawford. I spent somewhere 10 

## between two and four decades in the standards area 11 

## between the ASHRAE, IEC, ISO, and various trade 12 

## associations. There is no such thing as an ASHRAE 13 

## product and very few ASHRAE standards define product 14 

## performance. They define lots of other things, 15 

## primarily test criteria and test procedures, but not 16 

## -- and 90.1 is fairly unique in that. 17 

## And if I were sitting in your chair, thank 18 

## you, I don't want to, but if I were sitting in your 19 

## chair, I would be looking to trade associations. The 20 

## other focal point, they're the ones that have to 21 

## satisfy all applicable standards for the market that 22 

## they're serving. And I would look to the tradeAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 112 1 

## associations to be the interface for the standards 2 

## uniformity issue and there's a lot more discipline 3 

## and freedom to respond in the trade associations than 4 

## there is in ASHRAE. ASHRAE meets twice a year and it 5 

## may take them two or three meetings, or it may take 6 

## them two or three decades sometimes to settle on 7 

## something. And it's not driven by industry. It's 8 

## not driven by advocates. To a surprising degree, 9 

## it's driven by registered engineers and academics. 10 

## And the academics, and I'm including certain 11 

## government laboratories who are associated with 12 

## universities, I won't name them. 13 

## (Laughter.) 14 

## MR. CRAWFORD: What they're after is not 15 

## necessarily that which meets DOE's needs, and it's 16 

## not necessarily that which meets industry's needs, or 17 

## what the public's needs, but what meets their 18 

## academic idea as to what ought to be in a perfect 19 

## world. 20 

## MR. deLASKI: I think the point it raises 21 

## to me is, for the set of people that need to be 22 

## educated about process, it's not just the people whoAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 113 1 

## are in the working group. 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. 3 

## MR. deLASKI: This is a broader set of 4 

## people who are outside the manufacturers. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's absolutely why 6 

## I targeted the 90.1 committee because, in theory, 7 

## they're the ones voting on these continuance 8 

## maintenance proposals, while they my not be the ones 9 

## always bringing them to the people, they may reside 10 

## with some of the trade associations or whatever. 11 

## Ultimately they're the ones voting for inclusion in 12 

## the next iteration of 90.1 and that's what's going to 13 

## trigger DOE or not, in which case DOE would do its 14 

## own analysis. 15 

## MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck. I 16 

## just, as we were talking, sent a note to the 90.1 17 

## vice chair. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 19 

## MS. MILLER: This is Deborah. I was 20 

## wondering, did they give you a reason why your 21 

## suggestion was tabled? Was it they didn't have 22 

## enough time or they just weren't interested?Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 114 1 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think I know. I 2 

## think maybe he wanted to circle back with some people 3 

## and see if there was an actual interest. It wasn't 4 

## like, you know, the answer was no. But I think what 5 

## we hear from the regulated entities, from an 6 

## appliance standard viewpoint is very different than 7 

## what sometimes we hear from 90.1. They're not 8 

## necessarily one in the same. 9 

## MS. MILLER: This is Deborah. I think it 10 

## goes to what Jim was saying about who's on 90.1 11 

## versus industry. 12 

## MR. deLASKI: So do we need further action 13 

## items on this, John? Or this is -- 14 

## What is your thought for what further 15 

## action is for ASRAC on this topic? 16 

## MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck. Maybe 17 

## we let some offline action to see if we can take 18 

## place and then return to the item if we need to. 19 

## MR. deLASKI: Well, let's just make sure 20 

## it stays in our agenda and we return to it just to 21 

## say, you know, here's what happened and we need no 22 

## further action but let's keep it as an agenda item toAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 115 1 

## our next meeting or two. 2 

## Okay. John? 3 

## MR. CASKEY: I'm sorry. John Caskey. 4 

## Just a clarification. Is that -- what you just said, 5 

## is that related to the ASHRAE connection or is that 6 

## related to all of item three? 7 

## MR. deLASKI: I was thinking it related to 8 

## the ASHRAE topic. 9 

## MR. CASKEY: Okay. 10 

## MR. deLASKI: We're basically 11 

## disassembling item three. 12 

## Item four. This part was teed up by Dan 13 

## Cohen's presentation discussion of the presidential 14 

## initiative on retrospective and regulatory review 15 

## which is, if we remember his presentation at the last 16 

## workshop and I think many folks of trade associations 17 

## have submitted comments and DOE has solicited 18 

## comments every year now for the past several years on 19 

## regulatory review and lookback, looking for places 20 

## where they can remove extraneous regulations and 21 

## consolidate and also look at evaluating the 22 

## effectiveness of existing regulations.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 116 1 

## When I thought about this, I think of it 2 

## as a what could we learn, how can we look back at 3 

## what they've done to learn to improve what you do in 4 

## the future so that we improve analysis tools and 5 

## improve, you know, if you've learned how well you did 6 

## before then you can learn where you need to focus 7 

## your attentions so you can do better in the future. 8 

## This is not what I would think, you know, 9 

## that we as a committee would do, lookbacks, but that 10 

## the potential actions, to me, would be to recommend 11 

## to the agency that they invest some of their 12 

## consulting analysis resources into doing reviews of a 13 

## select number of rules to see what actually happened, 14 

## do their best to assess what happened. I know it's 15 

## not an easy analysis task, desegregating what happens 16 

## -- would have happened anyway? There's no control 17 

## group. So it is not an easy analysis to do. But it 18 

## strikes me as being a potentially useful one and one 19 

## that would be a good use of departmental consulting 20 

## resources on a limited basis. I wouldn't want it to 21 

## become -- to blow up to be this thing that ends up 22 

## becoming a hindrance. It strikes me as being aAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 117 1 

## useful potential for future analysis. 2 

## Jen commented here. We have Jen's comment 3 

## by e-mail. 4 

## Jen, do you want to elaborate, or is that 5 

## sufficient? 6 

## MS. CLEARY: That's sufficient, although I 7 

## think in you -- I'm sorry, I'm having a little hard 8 

## time hearing people so I'm just want to make sure I 9 

## understand. Were you suggesting that part of the 10 

## retrospective analysis should be looking at the 11 

## actual impact the standards have and that that's 12 

## what's difficult -- that's what would have happened 13 

## anyway and what happened because of the standards? 14 

## MR. deLASKI: Yes, that's a useful 15 

## question to look at and acknowledging it's not an 16 

## easy analysis to do. 17 

## MS. CLEARY: Okay. I'm sorry, you guys 18 

## are coming out a little garbled after lunch for some 19 

## reason. But I agree with that, but I don't have 20 

## anything else to add to my other comment. 21 

## MR. deLASKI: Diane? 22 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs fromAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 118 1 

## Rheem. So to me this retrospective analysis, I don't 2 

## think it's as important. And if the consultants were 3 

## going to work on something, to me it would be more -- 4 

## I keep hearing about leveraged tools from previous 5 

## rulemakings and data and the Grimm model was built on 6 

## Lotus 1-2-3, and before Windows, you know, so it 7 

## doesn't -- it seems like I would spend the time on 8 

## something more current. 9 

## There are always a lot of projections 10 

## about how much energy you save. In the end I 11 

## understand that it's a projection and so what if it's 12 

## not right, really it's more important where are we 13 

## today and where do we want to go. So I don't think 14 

## that this is an important item either. I agree with 15 

## Jen. 16 

## MR. ECKMAN: This is Tom Eckman. There 17 

## are two aspects to this, particularly in the 18 

## evaluation and the process evaluation and the impact. 19 

## Whether the impact evaluation is a high priority, I 20 

## think process, continuous improvement. The other 21 

## point good to have a review of some of the more or 22 

## less successful rulemaking enterprises to see whatAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 119 1 

## went wrong and what was right about those, whether 2 

## they were negotiated rulemakings or whether they 3 

## didn't go through negotiations or the standard 4 

## process to see that there are elements that improve 5 

## either the outcome -- the general acceptance of the 6 

## outcome of lawsuits that led to, you know, the 7 

## implementation on a schedule that -- where were the 8 

## errors so that we can limit those again and where can 9 

## we figure out how to streamline a process that would 10 

## do faster with less lift. That's a different kind of 11 

## evaluation -- a rulemaking process in and of itself 12 

## is what's under the microscope about the impact of 13 

## the standard. That might help us give better 14 

## guidance to the Department on things that could 15 

## change to improve these processes -- that way there's 16 

## less about refrigerators producing the savings we 17 

## thought. 18 

## I think that's a different tack on that 19 

## same question be it from a process standpoint. I 20 

## think part of our guidance here is to continue the 21 

## rulemaking processes. 22 

## MR. deLASKI: Has the agency done processAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 120 1 

## evaluation in the past, Ashley, do you know? 2 

## Informally, I presume. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, I think 4 

## we've -- you know, there was a process overhaul a 5 

## long time ago. Since then I think there's been minor 6 

## tweaks to the process in response to the feedback and 7 

## some -- DOE announced a little bit of a departure and 8 

## new process for let's say not too long ago for -- in 9 

## certain situations. But I don't know that we've 10 

## necessarily reopened all aspects of process. 11 

## Certainly I think we've been open in specific 12 

## rulemaking instances to holding extra meetings or 13 

## having analysis tools, tutorials or doing a second 14 

## set of interviews or doing, you know, more on a 15 

## one-on-one basis in response to the specific concerns 16 

## being brought up in that specific rule. But I don't 17 

## know if it's been, you know, take a step back and 18 

## look at every single aspect kind of thing. 19 

## MR. McCABE: This Michael McCabe. Process 20 

## improvement, process improvement, process 21 

## improvement. And most everything in the analysis was 22 

## changed as a result of that.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 121 1 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, but I think he's 2 

## asking since then. 3 

## MR. deLASKI: Yeah, and I also was asking, 4 

## you know, has there -- what Tom is describing is 5 

## there something different? Which is basically you 6 

## hire an outside consultant and they come in and take 7 

## a look at what's been done and provide a report. 8 

## Let's sort of find the friction points, identify the 9 

## points that are working well and that are not working 10 

## well. It's more of outside professionals who can 11 

## look at process and, you know, who have that skill 12 

## set and it would basically be a contract for the 13 

## agency. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We call that GAO and IG. 15 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We've been through several 17 

## of those. 18 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. That was my question. 19 

## So there are internal controls in the agency here 20 

## that make Ashley's life hell, apparently, as they ask 21 

## lots of questions, right? 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Multi-year process.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 122 1 

## MR. deLASKI: Right. So the GAO is the 2 

## Government Accountability Office, and then the DOE's 3 

## own Inspector General. And are the outputs of those 4 

## -- are there public reports that come out of those 5 

## processes? 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: GAO is. I don't know if 7 

## IG is. I'll have to look. 8 

## MR. deLASKI: That might be good too. You 9 

## can share that back with the committee. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 11 

## MR. deLASKI: Other comments on this 12 

## topic? 13 

## MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey. The 14 

## more I think about it, I like sort of Tom's idea, and 15 

## there might be opportunities for some sort of process 16 

## improvement. In terms of an analytical sort of 17 

## looking at what was in the regulation and what's 18 

## actually out there now and, you know, you realize the 19 

## improvements that we estimated and things like that, 20 

## it just seems like the whole process has changed with 21 

## time and I'm not sure what meaningful results you get 22 

## from that, not only the negotiated rulemaking processAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 123 1 

## and I think, you know, at least some of the ones I've 2 

## been involved with, it seems like the discovery of 3 

## improvement opportunities in the modeling and the 4 

## analysis and things like that were made. So it's 5 

## like -- and you say there's no control group and it's 6 

## like, things evolve through time and technology is 7 

## evolved differently than what we expected, you know, 8 

## five or six years ago. So I'm just not sure what -- 9 

## I'm not sure you get meaningful results, first of 10 

## all, and I'm not sure what in the world you would do 11 

## with those results once you got them. 12 

## I would rate it as sort of, for me 13 

## personally, a lower priority. 14 

## MR. deLASKI: Okay. Anyone want to push 15 

## back on that assertion? That seems to be the growing 16 

## consensus, that this is a lower -- not without some 17 

## value but if we prioritize, it ends up being lower. 18 

## And then we can learn back from Ashley what the 19 

## process reviews -- what's been done recently under 20 

## normal government control, review processes. 21 

## Okay. Anything else on item four? 22 

## (No response.)Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 124 1 

## MR. deLASKI: Item five, improve energy 2 

## usage data. Did we tackle this when we hit on the 3 

## one, or are there remaining topics to discuss here? 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Tom, you originally asked 5 

## me for the list. And I will say with one caveat, I 6 

## think it's all fairly accurate. I was going to take 7 

## another -- just before I put it in the bucket, I 8 

## wanted to take a chance to take a look at the 9 

## statutes just to make sure I captured some of the 10 

## lookbacks that may be further out, which I think 11 

## would help you in your long-term-type process. So, I 12 

## know obviously the active ones are accurate, and I 13 

## think the near-term ones are. And then 14 

## you had asked, I think, what -- are there certain 15 

## areas that both DOE could identify, and perhaps some 16 

## stakeholders may also have an opinion, about where 17 

## the greatest need might be for field use data that 18 

## would inform the test procedure provisions, and I 19 

## didn't do that on this sheet, but I do have some 20 

## ideas and I think we can talk about it as number one 21 

## in order. We could also put out an RFI and ask if 22 

## you wanted to get feedback from the greater communityAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 125 1 

## if you were actually interested in getting feedback. 2 

## MR. ECKMAN: I think that would be 3 

## --something like that would be real useful. I made a 4 

## list of questions that, you know, would be useful. 5 

## You get a calendar and then you back up 6 

## from that and say, how long does -- what kind of data 7 

## do we need and how long does it take to collect that 8 

## data? Sometimes that determines whether you bother 9 

## because it's really great to have the data, but if 10 

## it's a year late because you can't just physically 11 

## get in the field with the data collection, because it 12 

## needs a year's worth of data before you have an 13 

## answer, then you know you've missed this round. And 14 

## you can start that process, but you might not want to 15 

## start right away. You might want to start it two 16 

## years prior to the next rulemaking as opposed to this 17 

## one. 18 

## So I think that's -- those are the kinds 19 

## of things that should be in a written RFI. We might 20 

## be able to figure out which test procedures are most 21 

## subject to do the cycle information or other kinds of 22 

## neat parameters where we don't know if it's a lifeAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 126 1 

## cycle process or a test department process, and get 2 

## feedback from parties that are familiar with each of 3 

## those test procedures about what needs to be -- 4 

## what's missing right now, or what needs to be updated 5 

## and I'm sure your own staff have, and the consultant 6 

## staff have, use of those because they're dealing with 7 

## them up to their elbows now. 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: That's fine. And I think 9 

## the ones that come to mind with regards to test 10 

## procedure provisions are the ones that Jen is going 11 

## to be -- Jen in particular and perhaps Kelley would 12 

## be particularly interested in. They're the ones 13 

## where the filed use data seems to come up quite a 14 

## bit. 15 

## For the test procedures, now obviously for 16 

## the scanner side and the energy use analysis, we do, 17 

## for most of the rules, do feel use kind of, and for 18 

## me, field use information to help inform that energy 19 

## analysis. And so, great, we'll work on it as the 20 

## best mechanism to get feedback, but I think we can 21 

## handle that one. 22 

## MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 127 1 

## There's a corollary data point that is also elusive 2 

## and that's cost. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We're happy to collect 4 

## costs from them. 5 

## MR. MANDYCK: At the consumer level, that 6 

## seems to also be imperfect. So I don't know if 7 

## there's a -- that's, you know, a private industry can 8 

## work together with DOE or to figure out how we 9 

## develop or get at or access some type of national 10 

## consumer cost database. 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Happy to work with 12 

## you. 13 

## PARTICIPANT: Yeah, a lot of the utilities 14 

## collect cost information in their programs. But 15 

## their programs increase costs. So it's not clean 16 

## information. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I think we've done 18 

## that. We bought some databases in certain rules with 19 

## retail price databases and we've done some 20 

## comparison, but it's also harder, you know, there's 21 

## the utility things that are going on, or Energy Star, 22 

## or tax rebates that are going on that kind of doAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 128 1 

## shifts in the market. But also if you move the 2 

## standard to a certain level for which there's not -- 3 

## for which volume pricing might significantly change, 4 

## then it's like how realistic is that comparison. And 5 

## so we can definitely talk about methods and what we 6 

## might look at and that kind of stuff. I think we're 7 

## open to that discussion and it's just we have tried 8 

## some of that both ways. 9 

## MR. deLASKI: One thing I would add, you 10 

## know, I think there are some new firms out there that 11 

## are doing -- you know, using web crawling technology 12 

## to gather cost data, you know, whether that ends up 13 

## being a new source for products that are sold at 14 

## retail. Now, part of the problem is that for many of 15 

## the products that particularly the HVAC companies 16 

## sell, they're sold through dealers and through 17 

## contractors so identifying retail prices is difficult 18 

## from public information. Or information readily 19 

## available without talking to a contractor and even 20 

## then how do you trust it? 21 

## Jeremiah, I hope people on the phone can 22 

## now hear me. And I usually have a pretty good voice,Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 129 1 

## so I'm surprised they can't. So if you're getting it 2 

## or not, I wonder whether the microphone may be faulty 3 

## or something here. 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So it has to do with that 5 

## little thing for the phone. It is not -- the 6 

## microphone works great for her. 7 

## MR. deLASKI: I see. 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: But it's that thing that 9 

## you want to yell at. 10 

## PARTICIPANT: Can we pull that up a little 11 

## bit though, the main satellite or whatever? 12 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 13 

## MR. deLASKI: I'll just try to project 14 

## towards that little bug, I see, that -- 15 

## PARTICIPANT: So it only goes this far? 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, just yell at the 17 

## bug. 18 

## MR. deLASKI: The other thing I'd note in 19 

## terms of this field data collection issue, and I 20 

## thank Tom for putting it on the table, because I know 21 

## Tom -- in the Northwest there are ongoing efforts to 22 

## collect data on energy consumption. And as IAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 130 1 

## understand it he's now got, you know, data collection 2 

## mechanisms in place in many homes. And my 3 

## understanding is that there's an emerging effort in 4 

## California to have a similar study underway that 5 

## would be longitudinal in nature and capacity, a major 6 

## investment on the part of the California ratepayers 7 

## to have that kind of data collection happening. So I 8 

## think it's an opportunity here to leverage those 9 

## kinds of research efforts underway, multi-million 10 

## dollar, multi-year effort to get better field data.. 11 

## MR. ECKMAN: The fact is, I think with the 12 

## emergence of a smarter grid, we have the ability to 13 

## collect a lot of information that we thought was 14 

## really expensive like before, which won't be. And so 15 

## the new technologies will advantage this process 16 

## because we can get some insights into individual 17 

## components in buildings are doing that would 18 

## otherwise have to have a base sample design and 19 

## deployment and specific metering to do the work, but 20 

## maybe that's not necessary now with some of the 21 

## algorithms like pattern recognition algorithms that 22 

## people are developing. And it's being able to getAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 131 1 

## into that space and see who is doing what. LBL is 2 

## working on some of this through their interval 3 

## metering and test bed and kind of stuff. And I think 4 

## there are other places where I'm sure -- I'm 5 

## absolutely certain Google is working on it. But, you 6 

## know, maybe there will be data sets that we can 7 

## access that reduce the burden and cost of getting 8 

## this information going forward because we have 9 

## technology that comes in and makes it cheap. And 10 

## we're hoping so because it's expensive to do this, 11 

## several million dollars a year to collect 100,000 12 

## worth of data. 13 

## MR. deLASKI: Ashley, you mentioned the 14 

## potential for an RFI. What did you have in mind 15 

## there? 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not sure of anything, 17 

## but if you want feedback from -- I would say our 18 

## interested parties as a whole about which test 19 

## procedures and/or -- just which products would 20 

## benefit the most, maybe, from field use studies, kind 21 

## of to help prioritize, we could do that. But that's 22 

## one avenue for getting that such information. But ifAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 132 1 

## we think the committee and/or DOE itself can handle 2 

## that, that's fine too. We're happy to provide 3 

## feedback either way. 4 

## MR. ECKMAN: I think it's good to get an 5 

## RFI out to see if other parties have different 6 

## opinions about what they think the more critical ones 7 

## -- I mean, you have 60 products out there that -- 8 

## some of which are pretty nichey and the individual 9 

## market settings would say more or less about how well 10 

## they trust the data or test procedure or duty cycle. 11 

## MR. deLASKI: Diane? 12 

## MS. JAKOBS: So I think that's a big part 13 

## of it, though, that there are assumptions that were 14 

## made in the past that people disagree with to open up 15 

## the opportunity for them to provide contradictory or 16 

## supporting data. You know, things that were 17 

## controversial. So -- 18 

## MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think it ought to be 19 

## open docket to say, I think the number is not right 20 

## and here's why. I've got data to prove it or I know 21 

## it was a guess. Everybody had to guess. We were all 22 

## in a room to guess this number and we didn't have anyAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 133 1 

## information. And that's perfectly fine too. But to 2 

## determine whether that guess is good enough, or we're 3 

## resolving with empirical information. 4 

## MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. I just 5 

## wonder a bit if like a broad-based RFI we're going to 6 

## get the kind of response we're looking for. You 7 

## know, it's a bit of a fishing expedition. And do you 8 

## feel that people would -- are you going to get people 9 

## to spend the time and effort to respond to an RFI 10 

## that kind of looks like it could be a void. You 11 

## know, could be no harm in it, I guess I'm just 12 

## saying, I don't -- I'm concerned that, is it going to 13 

## drum up the response, you know, who do you want to 14 

## pay attention to this and how do you get them to 15 

## engage? Because you have people -- 16 

## MS. KLINE: Just to chime in and answer 17 

## that if I could. I wonder if we -- I think that part 18 

## of the issue is, what is the most useful type of 19 

## information here? And, you know, it probably differs 20 

## by product, but how do we -- how do we go after or 21 

## even determine how you get, I think, representative 22 

## information in some of these categories? It justAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 134 1 

## strikes me that we might ask a question and if you 2 

## have any information, but it might be totally off 3 

## point information. So I'm wondering what that all -- 4 

## you know, how that will kind of get us farther down 5 

## the path, I guess. 6 

## MR. deLASKI: Yeah, that's a good point, 7 

## Kelley. This is Andrew. And I know, for example, in 8 

## the case of the work that's been done in the 9 

## Northwest, there's a lot of dialogue with 10 

## manufacturers to answer precisely that kind of 11 

## question. And, you know, to ensure that the 12 

## information being gathered was in sync with what 13 

## manufacturers would expect or made sense or how it 14 

## was being gathered. And if information comes in 15 

## without that kind of interaction, you may end up with 16 

## what do you do with it? 17 

## MR. ECKMAN: My guess is what we've -- 18 

## given regularly the home goes through this process to 19 

## look for data, I don't anticipate we're going to get 20 

## much new. We'll get people who've already collected 21 

## and telling you they've got it and you might already 22 

## know that.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 135 1 

## Maybe there's information out there, but 2 

## every rulemaking we go out on a hunt for it and it 3 

## rarely shows up, which is disappointing, but that's 4 

## the truth. Maybe RFI does, but I'm not a part of it. 5 

## DOE staff and consultants and industry and advocates 6 

## have a pretty good idea of where things -- have to 7 

## make professional judgment stretch pretty far. 8 

## MS. KLINE: It just strikes me too that it 9 

## might be a good -- a really good, productive 10 

## discussion that we might be able to structure would 11 

## be kind of the identification of where we think the 12 

## gaps would be most important or where there's 13 

## concerns about gaps in thinking about, you know, is 14 

## there any way to get at developing a different or 15 

## more credible set of information to fill those gaps. 16 

## Because I think sometimes it's not so hard, the hard 17 

## piece of it is, you know, there's an issue -- we 18 

## think there may be an issue there, but we don't 19 

## really know how to get at making it better. 20 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. For the heat 21 

## pumps and air conditioning -- residential heat pumps 22 

## and air conditioning that regulation went into effectAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 136 1 

## January 1st and we're already participating in 2 

## manufacturer impact analysis. So maybe it's 3 

## something that would start, we would do an RFI as the 4 

## manufacturing impact analysis starts. So you're 5 

## looking for data from manufacturers, but maybe you're 6 

## looking for data from other organizations as well in 7 

## the same timeframe. So it would be more targeted 8 

## rather than 60 products at one time. 9 

## MR. ECKMAN: And I'm pretty sure there's a 10 

## schedule underneath this someplace that looks at some 11 

## products and doesn't look at others because the time 12 

## just isn't there. It takes two years to collect the 13 

## data. 14 

## MR. deLASKI: Maybe the action item on 15 

## this one is, you know, for us -- again, just to 16 

## review, Ashley is going to finalize this document, 17 

## this set of documents. We'll have time to review 18 

## them ourselves and take them back to our 19 

## organizations. And, Tom, I think we would ask you to 20 

## take the point on thinking about what some of the 21 

## next steps are. This has been one of your consistent 22 

## points of interest. You know, without creating aAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 137 1 

## subgroup, maybe bring it back to the full committee 2 

## for their consideration what ASRAC's actions are. 3 

## And, again, this is perhaps back -- continue with the 4 

## subgroup concept, you know, the task under Subgroup 5 

## 1. 6 

## MR. ECKMAN: I can work with Ashley with 7 

## what she has on her schedule here and then we can 8 

## talk about maybe getting information from you, Staff 9 

## and contractors about what they think are the top 10 

## priorities and why. 11 

## MR. deLASKI: And then we can broaden it, 12 

## as Kelley suggested. I think we need to identify 13 

## gaps and not just make it wide open and then you have 14 

## nothing. 15 

## It will be a bunch of nice-to-have 16 

## information, but it's not on the critical path to 17 

## rulemaking. 18 

## All right. Anything further on item 5? 19 

## (No response.) 20 

## MR. deLASKI: Item 6. So I put this out 21 

## as -- I think the basic notion that I was trying to 22 

## drive at is you want to spend your time and effortAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 138 1 

## where you're going to have the biggest impact; what a 2 

## concept. And recognizing that the DOE has legal 3 

## obligations to meet, and then I saw Jennifer's 4 

## comment, which I think is a good one, I agree with 5 

## it, that if you're going to do a rulemaking, you 6 

## don't want it, even if it's small, in terms of energy 7 

## savings for those manufacturers, you know, it's not 8 

## small, it's their rule, it's their standard, so they 9 

## wouldn't want to have any lesser level of rigor, even 10 

## though the savings may be smaller, they don't want 11 

## lesser rigor to get to an outcome that's going to be 12 

## -- you know, beneath the needs of that industry. So 13 

## I concur with her comment that -- I concur with her 14 

## comment. I would open it up for 15 

## further discussion. 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. 17 

## Perhaps I can just clarify. One point for 18 

## discussion, so the six-year lookback requires DOE to 19 

## either issue a notice of proposed rulemaking with the 20 

## associated analysis supporting amended standards or 21 

## issue a notice of determination showing that amended 22 

## standards are not economically justified,Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 139 1 

## technologically feasible, et cetera, et cetera. So I 2 

## think, you know, that's something to keep in mind. 3 

## And I think that's kind of what Jen is keying up 4 

## here. You know, our current -- we are trying to meet 5 

## all of our statutory deadlines. And so that 6 

## determination is a statutory deadline or a NOPR in 7 

## that timeframe. So maybe something just to keep in 8 

## mind as the discussion goes forward, if it does move 9 

## forward. 10 

## MR. deLASKI: And we're sort of early into 11 

## this process to be doing these six-year lookbacks. I 12 

## don't one's been completed yet. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. If it 14 

## hasn't been completed, it's getting ready to be 15 

## completed. That being said, we haven't gone to 16 

## determination or it hasn't been ruled to this point. 17 

## MR. deLASKI: Right. So, in essence, that 18 

## provision gives you an offramp of a sort to not do a 19 

## rulemaking if those criteria aren't met. 20 

## MS. MILLER: That would have to be -- 21 

## honestly, it would have to be pretty significant 22 

## considering the department has never done one beforeAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 140 1 

## moving for an alternative. 2 

## MR. deLASKI: The off ramp hasn't -- my 3 

## point is that the off ramp hasn't been there for very 4 

## long. It's only been there since 2007. And the 5 

## lookback provision only has been implemented by the 6 

## Agency on a -- they're implementing it now across the 7 

## board. But we haven't had that many opportunities -- 8 

## MS. MILLER: To use that? 9 

## MR. deLASKI: -- to consider using it even 10 

## yet. I think maybe about a handful. And in those 11 

## cases was pretty clear cut, I think, that there was 12 

## significant additional savings beyond what was 13 

## currently the standard, but we're going to see that 14 

## be implemented soon here. 15 

## (Pause.) 16 

## MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey. So in 17 

## light of, you know, what Ashley just said, you know, 18 

## at first I was leaning towards, you know, you're 19 

## right, this isn't realistic for us to get in the 20 

## middle of, not a real bang-for-the-buck issue, but it 21 

## seems like we could at least talk about it and come 22 

## up with is there some threshold where if the totalAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 141 1 

## savings, total projected energy savings from a 2 

## particular product is going to be less than some 3 

## threshold is just not worth pursuing and to get it 4 

## all -- you know, and it may be only a 60-item list, 5 

## but maybe we can pare down that 60-item list. 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I don't think 7 

## consideration of a threshold is the right idea. 8 

## Perhaps, though, maybe the collectively 9 

## considerations that the Department should consider 10 

## when it's trying to make a decision about 11 

## determination versus proposed standards. We shy away 12 

## from thresholds in terms of, you know, what a saving 13 

## -- you know, significant amount of energy savings may 14 

## be. And we've done very -- rulemakings are very 15 

## small. We've had rulemakings with very big impact 16 

## and off the board. So, I'm not so sure that folks 17 

## back at DOE collectively would be overly excited 18 

## about some type of threshold analysis. But I do see 19 

## some room for maybe some things that DOE should 20 

## consider in helping informing its decisionmaking 21 

## processing, maybe, if you want to go down this 22 

## pathway. It might be worthwhile for me to have -- weAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 142 1 

## haven't really explored this very much within DOE 2 

## just because we haven't really had to use it yet. 3 

## But it may be worthwhile me having a conversation 4 

## with the legal department to see, you know, what our 5 

## current thinking might be and then regroup on this 6 

## one in a bit. If that seems reasonable to you all. 7 

## MR. deLASKI: Well, I think any 8 

## department's guidance on what you're open to getting 9 

## guidance on would be helpful. So we spin our wheels 10 

## and waste our time. 11 

## I also want to raise a concern. You know, 12 

## I think if we could wave our wand and develop a 13 

## threshold that would be cool. I think us -- you 14 

## know, it would be very hard. That's a hard 15 

## discussion. 16 

## I think what might be acceptable to some 17 

## may not be acceptable to others. And then you get 18 

## into a lot of tough issues around that. The statue 19 

## uses somewhat ambiguous language because that's how 20 

## statutes are written, to get compromise, to get 21 

## outcomes, to get enacted. 22 

## (Laughter.)Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 143 1 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 2 

## PARTICIPANT: But a number of products are 3 

## getting closer and closer to -- 4 

## MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I don't dispute it. 5 

## And also your point about AFUE not fully capturing 6 

## the consumption because 99 is not getting the story 7 

## right. So, you know, this all -- it kind of brings 8 

## it back to the discussion once again. 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: If we know what our 10 

## priority is, perhaps we should -- I mean, so let me 11 

## have this discussion and it can be on the radar 12 

## screen as kind of a placeholder for us going forward. 13 

## But I think we kind of have to have that conversation 14 

## here first before we do a lot of work. And clearly 15 

## there are some very important things on this list 16 

## that could deserve a lot of love and attention now. 17 

## (Pause.) 18 

## MR. deLASKI: So let's -- we had a few 19 

## items at the beginning of the day today, items 7 and 20 

## 8. Item 7 that I captured this morning was Jen's 21 

## point, how to address test procedure changes that 22 

## impact measured energy consumption. In particular ifAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 144 1 

## you're working outside of a -- you're outside the 2 

## timeframe of a standards amendment, and it raises 3 

## tricky issues around backsliding and tricky issues 4 

## around -- that relate to programs that use the same 5 

## test method, and to Diane's point about if you start 6 

## changing the metric and then what qualifies for 7 

## Energy Star now doesn't qualify, or do you have to 8 

## true up Energy Star, and then there's this rippling 9 

## effect of -- once you change a test method, there's 10 

## just sort of a whole cascading effects that affect 11 

## programs, manufacturers and market, and is there a 12 

## way to manage those in a way that actually lets you 13 

## change a test method when we know a change is needed. 14 

## Is that a good summary of it, Jen, or 15 

## would you add something? 16 

## MS. CLEARY: No, it was a great summary. 17 

## I think the only thing I guess that I would add is, 18 

## that we have -- together with Andrew we have talked 19 

## to DOE about this a little bit and so I don't know 20 

## since I'm just bringing it up now, you know, I'm sure 21 

## there hasn't been the opportunity to discuss how DOE 22 

## might respond to this in the ASRAC context, but thisAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 145 1 

## may be another one where we end up wanting to have 2 

## counsel give us a view, you know, I guess I would 3 

## see, if we decided to pursue this, that it would be 4 

## useful to have a discussion where DOE would present 5 

## to us their view and their interpretation of the 6 

## statute and how they perceived when they make a test 7 

## procedure change that impacts measured energy outside 8 

## of that standard rulemaking context. Because, you 9 

## know, I know I talked a little bit with Dan Cohen 10 

## about that and it was informative. But I think if we 11 

## do pursue this, that would be a useful starting 12 

## point. 13 

## MR. deLASKI: Questions from the committee 14 

## for Jen or for other clarification of the topic or 15 

## comment? 16 

## (No response.) 17 

## MR. deLASKI: Reaction from Ashley? 18 

## (Laughter.) 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I'd be happy to go talk to 20 

## my counsel about this one and get back to ASRAC. I 21 

## don't -- while I'm pretty sure I know what they're 22 

## going to tell me, I don't think I'm ready toAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 146 1 

## articulate that quite yet to the committee as a 2 

## whole. I know one answer is going to be DOE does not 3 

## backslide ever that will come out of Dan's mouth. 4 

## But let me talk to Dan and perhaps table this one to 5 

## report back. It's just a general understanding of 6 

## kind of how we make that determination on a 7 

## rule-by-rule basis. And I think it gets at some of 8 

## the considerations I highlighted earlier about why 9 

## we're doing a past procedure rulemaking, why we're 10 

## doing more clarification rules, and I think, number 11 

## one, will help inform some of those, but I'll 12 

## definitely touch base with counsel and get back to 13 

## you guys. 14 

## MR. deLASKI: You can maybe bring Dan to 15 

## the next meeting and have him explain himself. 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I will suggest that. 17 

## MR. deLASKI: All right. So that's the 18 

## action item on that one. 19 

## Item 8 that I wrote down this morning is 20 

## -- this was the one that, Ashley, you put on the 21 

## agenda. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 147 1 

## MR. deLASKI: And, John, you began to 2 

## respond to. But the need for better data flow 3 

## through trust and sharing of information so that we 4 

## can inform rulemakings, basically data, information 5 

## that manufactures have, cost data that you just 6 

## raised, but also sales volume, shipments data. In 7 

## many cases it's essential to a good analysis is 8 

## property of manufacturers and finding ways for 9 

## manufacturers to share that property with the agency 10 

## in a timely way I think will -- has often worked well 11 

## in the past, it's broken down sometimes recently. 12 

## And I guess the question is, what can we do to 13 

## identify why it's broken down and how it can be 14 

## repaired because I think it's in all of our interests 15 

## to have it work better. 16 

## What the ASRAC task is on this, what would 17 

## be helpful? 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: From DOE's perspective, I 19 

## think it's a better understanding of the concerns and 20 

## then potential solutions for those concerns to help 21 

## facilitate whether ASRAC can help promote that idea 22 

## to help facilitate a better information sharing andAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 148 1 

## overall collaborative process. I'm not sure of the 2 

## best way to get there and obviously I think 3 

## negotiated rules are a great tool in our toolkit to 4 

## help with that. But just in more traditional ruling 5 

## things, I do think there's a lot of information that 6 

## sharing and opportunities that could happen that 7 

## perhaps on both sides aren't fully taken advantage 8 

## of. 9 

## MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck. So I 10 

## think it's definitely an issue and I think, just 11 

## quickly responding, and I can't speak for all of 12 

## industry, obviously, but through conversations that 13 

## I'm familiar with, I think there are a couple buckets 14 

## of concern. One is, DOE through contractors, is 15 

## always asking us through whatever rulemaking, to 16 

## know, exactly our cost, exactly our margin down to 17 

## the screw in the furnace. And those are the crown 18 

## jewels for any manufacturer, and we simply don't 19 

## trust anybody with that data. So it is not coming 20 

## out. 21 

## And it's not that -- it's just a breakdown 22 

## in the computer somewhere and the data gets out andAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 149 1 

## you're on business. I mean, it's very, very 2 

## difficult. So there's that set. And, you know, we 3 

## do our best to provide ranges, to give indications, 4 

## you know, we definitely want to help because we want 5 

## the models to be accurate and timely. There are 6 

## limitations to that. There's that concern. 7 

## The other concern frankly is, in not all 8 

## rulemakings, but people kind of drift to the extreme 9 

## in rulemaking where the industry has felt like it's 10 

## been complied or has complied with a request to 11 

## provide data that data has been ignored and DOE 12 

## pushes its standards to areas not justified by the 13 

## data industry as provided. So then there's a point 14 

## of saying, okay, well, why did I spend all of that 15 

## time collecting all that data and turning it in when 16 

## the whole exercise was to justify Maxtech or 17 

## something else. 18 

## So I think there are some trust issues 19 

## related to that where, you know, I think the industry 20 

## is at the point of saying, well, let's -- it doesn't 21 

## matter what data we provide, the outcome is 22 

## predetermined, so let's just not provide data.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 150 

### 1 

## MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey. But 2 

## certainly I think I agree with some of the things I 3 

## hear, but in addition to that, it seems like when we 4 

## were working on the transformer stuff, it's not like 5 

## it's involved in other parties, that the 6 

## manufacturers know like their costs and whether they 7 

## divulge it or not, it's still part of their costs. 8 

## But in the next question, we're dealing with 9 

## installation costs and dealing with how it's 10 

## installed and is it installed properly? Are they 11 

## truly going to reap the benefits? Is DOE inspecting 12 

## and things like that? Instead of limiting this to 13 

## just manufacturers, I mean, should it be -- should 14 

## there be like the engineering community, the 15 

## consulting and contracting community, the 16 

## installation community or dealers or other people 17 

## involved with the process to make sure that we're 18 

## getting the best cost assumption, materials 19 

## assumption and other things out there? 20 

## MR. deLASKI: Kelley or Jen, anything to 21 

## add to this one? 22 

## MS. KLINE: No, I don't think so, notAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 151 1 

## right now. This is Kelley. 2 

## MR. deLASKI: So the trust issue that John 3 

## raises, it's hard for me to solve that problem. You 4 

## know, if you don't think your data is going to be 5 

## used, then I understand, why would you take the time 6 

## to submit it, it's like me, I understand that it's 7 

## not like it's free to collect this data, it takes 8 

## time, it takes some of your best people, like in 9 

## commercial HVAC. It's costly to be able to collect 10 

## it. Spending time with consultants is significant 11 

## person-days. 12 

## You know, it strikes me that -- 13 

## MS. KLINE: Andrew, this is Kelley, I do 14 

## have more now that you're talking through this. So, 15 

## I didn't mean to interrupt. 16 

## MR. deLASKI: Please. Please go ahead. 17 

## MS. KLINE: Well, you know, I'm just 18 

## thinking about some of our experiences in recent data 19 

## gathering efforts. And I think one of the struggles 20 

## we've had and some of the -- and some kind of do 21 

## circle back to some of the test procedures and other 22 

## issues that we talked about a little bit earlier.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 152 1 

## But we've struggled with some of the data collection 2 

## where some were requested, you know, put on levels 3 

## which for instance were particular technology options 4 

## when we looked at them just really don't line up with 5 

## kind of how we would have or data we would have in 6 

## those lanes because that's not how we would think 7 

## about designing the product or necessarily would be 8 

## reflective of, you know where we think the baseline 9 

## of the product would be or how to get there. So at 10 

## times we've had kind of more fundamental disconnects 11 

## that have really hamstrung our efforts on the data 12 

## collection, which I think is a little more kind of 13 

## fundamental issue and does kind of go back to some of 14 

## the test procedure things. 15 

## So sometimes it's not just that we don't 16 

## want to; it's that we really are struggling with how 17 

## to get at it. 18 

## MR. deLASKI: And I have heard that point 19 

## before too, Kelley. And as someone in this room who 20 

## is not a manufacturer and who has never had to fill 21 

## out one of these data requests, I don't have that 22 

## sort of window into that experience. But what I haveAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 153 1 

## had some experience is in some of the areas where 2 

## we've been involved in negotiations early on to have 3 

## an opportunity to contribute toward the data requests 4 

## and how the data request is developed. And I know 5 

## it's a question for industry and for DOE which is, is 6 

## there typically some iterative process where sort of 7 

## the survey form or the survey tool is developed, 8 

## shared, back to the survey tool, to then -- or is it 9 

## just, here it is, it's the consultants who develop 10 

## it, and there are supervisors who review it, then 11 

## industry says, well, you asked the wrong question. 12 

## Now I have to answer the wrong question. And I'm 13 

## still going to answer the wrong question because 14 

## there is no one who is giving me a chance to suggest 15 

## to you what the right question might have been. I 16 

## don't know how it's typically done, if there is any 17 

## sort of interaction, an iterative process, or is 18 

## there one offer. 19 

## MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck. My 20 

## experience with them is they are full day on-site 21 

## interviews. So the consultant team comes to your 22 

## office, comes to your factory, sits down with you,Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 154 1 

## starts going through the questionnaire, which is 2 

## provided in advance, and it's a discussion. So, 3 

## yeah, we -- in some cases we told the consultants, 4 

## you're asking the wrong question or you're phrasing 5 

## it the wrong way, or you're looking for the wrong 6 

## data. So it's a discussion that we provide. But we 7 

## don't know what happens to the data after we give it 8 

## to the consultant. That's the way it's done. 9 

## I think on the flip side, as Ashley had 10 

## noted, you know, I think the more that we're doing 11 

## the negotiated rulemakings the better that we're 12 

## seeing the data being used and it's better that we're 13 

## using the right data that has been collected. So I 14 

## mean, I think we're moving in a positive direction. 15 

## I wouldn't want to leave the meeting or the record 16 

## thinking we're not moving in a positive direction 17 

## because we are. 18 

## But the circumstances I was talking about 19 

## before are ones that are in people's memory from 20 

## recent rulemakings or ones in the past that are 21 

## issues to be cognizant of and to try to address. 22 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. And I haveAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 155 1 

## been on a bunch of those interviews, too. Recently 2 

## they have come back and asked more questions and 3 

## we've talked with the engineers and they said coils 4 

## it's this much square feet as like they made 5 

## assumptions based on that. But we said, oh, that 6 

## area is too large for a single rope coil, you have to 7 

## have a double rope coil, that means you need more 8 

## manifold egg, so it would be more expensive, 9 

## blah-blah-blah. So we're trying to -- they gave us a 10 

## list of numbers that we looked through like the 11 

## flyers, you know, and what maybe were wrong 12 

## assumptions. But there's -- I mean, at different 13 

## companies, I just know that when we've had someone 14 

## come from one company to our company there's like the 15 

## Rheem way to do things and I'm sure there's the 16 

## Carrier way to do things, and we don't do them all 17 

## the same. And -- 18 

## MR. deLASKI: So what John thinks is the 19 

## right question, you might think it's the right 20 

## question but a different question? 21 

## MS. JAKOBS: We would mainly have no idea 22 

## what you were talking about. So it's not easy atAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 156 1 

## all. 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: You just explained why DOE 3 

## has a really hard time in certain instances. What 4 

## we're trying to do is create an industry-aggregated 5 

## curves, to the extent that means something. You 6 

## know, everyone does things different ways and we're 7 

## not just pulling the information out of thin air. I 8 

## mean, we are buying, testing, tearing down equipment. 9 

## And I used to visibly do it in my prior life. I've 10 

## been to many of your facilities. 11 

## With that being said, you know, I think 12 

## there is data that you guys have access to that may 13 

## not be as sensitive that could be very valuable. 14 

## There is earlier conversations that could be had and 15 

## we could be engaged with whether it's asking the 16 

## right questions or just having a better understanding 17 

## of what's coming down the pike. You know, when DOE 18 

## does go on these interviews, the collective DOE, goes 19 

## on these interviews, we are willing to share the data 20 

## we have, whether right, wrong or indifferent, about 21 

## your companies and their products. Obviously we're 22 

## not going to cross-share that information, that'sAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 157 1 

## something that we just won't do. But at the same 2 

## time, I think we have had some success with sharing 3 

## information that's specific to your products and 4 

## getting that feedback loop. And so I think that, to 5 

## the extent that those avenues stay open, I think it's 6 

## very helpful to the Department. I understand that it 7 

## takes a lot of resources, but it takes a lot of 8 

## resources also if you get to a proposed rule or a 9 

## finer rule for which you don't like the outcome and 10 

## we're stepping back from that one way or the other. 11 

## So I don't know, it just depends, do you frontend the 12 

## resources or do you backend the resources. And I 13 

## think it's better to frontend them for a variety of 14 

## different reasons which may get to a negotiated rule 15 

## quicker. 16 

## MR. deLASKI: So I don't hear a hesitance 17 

## to the time. What I heard was a hesitance to the 18 

## time if it wasn't going to get used. And I think 19 

## that was the frustration that Tom was voicing. 20 

## MS. KLINE: I wonder, just throwing an 21 

## idea out here too because I heard John reference kind 22 

## of the old egg, you know, the interview and the eggAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 158 1 

## and that's been our experience as well. But I wonder 2 

## if one idea might be for a work group to kind of get 3 

## some feedback on the standard interview process or do 4 

## the thinking around that and think about how we might 5 

## be able to, you know, get at a more -- you know, 6 

## whether it's asking questions a different way or more 7 

## targeted. And I just know from our experience, 8 

## there's some we perennially struggle with and it 9 

## might be -- that might be one way to kind of get some 10 

## feedback on just that first step of the approach. 11 

## That's just a thought. 12 

## MR. deLASKI: That sounds quite -- if I 13 

## was DOE, that would sound very appealing to me, the 14 

## notion of getting a bunch of manufacturers who have 15 

## been through the process numerous times in the room 16 

## with you and your contractors to provide lessons 17 

## learned, here's what's worked, here's one that's 18 

## really painful, and, you know, I don't think it's 19 

## ever going to be a little fun, but you can make it 20 

## less painful, you know, feel like you're getting 21 

## heard, then I think that would be a great. I don't 22 

## know what the timing is, but --Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 159 1 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's more of a 2 

## question of willingness. I think DOE is open to 3 

## that. Maybe the manufacturers that are on the 4 

## committee could think about whether they think that 5 

## is a worthwhile effort. 6 

## MS. KLINE: I would think it would be. I 7 

## mean, just speaking for GE here, but I think that 8 

## would certainly be something we would support and I 9 

## would think others would be interested as well. 10 

## MS. JAKOBS: So from my point of view, I 11 

## just facilitated one of these, and this idea of a big 12 

## event where people have to be in the room on one day, 13 

## I mean, that -- it's a struggle. And the people who 14 

## aren't being discussed, their area is not being 15 

## discussed, they don't want to be there. They don't 16 

## want to sit through somebody else's stuff. 17 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 18 

## MS. JAKOBS: Other than teleconferences, I 19 

## mean, we're generally sitting in a big -- 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 21 

## MS. JAKOBS: -- room with coffee. You 22 

## know, there's no reason people have to fly, you know,Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 160 1 

## unless they're going to visit the factory. And even 2 

## now our engineers aren't necessarily at the same 3 

## location where the production line is. We could do 4 

## better than this one face-to-face meeting where you 5 

## have to say everything you need to say, you know. 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I think that would 7 

## be great. 8 

## MS. KLINE: Just throwing out another 9 

## thought here because I think that's a good comment. 10 

## What it made me think of is and this may be unique to 11 

## our company, but we have very -- we have our experts 12 

## in each product line engaged in each of the 13 

## discussions, but there's usually a common thread who 14 

## cuts across all the discussions and that would be, 15 

## you know, me for us, but there would be others for 16 

## other companies. And I think that's -- to me that's 17 

## what we want to get at, kind of the common thread 18 

## type of issue that companies see. And whether it's 19 

## kind of trying to identify those right people, and so 20 

## we're not trying to target our huge group here, or 21 

## whether it may even be engaging the trade 22 

## associations so that they can work with their membersAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 161 1 

## to kind of, you know, target a list of questions, get 2 

## feedback on those particular questions and then maybe 3 

## trying to narrow the group a little bit. That 4 

## strikes me as maybe being -- getting us farther down 5 

## the path to some useful inputs here. 6 

## MR. deLASKI: That makes sense to me as 7 

## well, Kelley. I like that. There are people like 8 

## yourself, or like Diane who may be able to pool a 9 

## common thread together from their companies without 10 

## getting into the weeds in any particular -- and, of 11 

## course, the trade associations as well, so you don't 12 

## get into the weeds of, you know, you don't get 13 

## involved with one product once, that was the first 14 

## time ever at a standard, you know, that might take 15 

## you to the weeds on that product. 16 

## MR. McCABE: I'd like to endorse John 17 

## Caskey's comment that because for some products, 18 

## probably as much as half of the costs of the 19 

## consumers are costs that are outside of the 20 

## manufacturer. Recognize distributor markup, dealer 21 

## markup, installation costs. Focusing just on the 22 

## manufacturer costs on these products, we may beAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 162 1 

## missing an awful lot in the process policy and then 2 

## you harm the consumer. 3 

## MR. deLASKI: Other thoughts on this 4 

## data-sharing issue? We've got a couple of action 5 

## items coming out of this. I think for the 6 

## manufacturers to think about -- perhaps to think 7 

## about webinars or teleconferences or maybe even what 8 

## makes the most sense to provide DOE feedback in 9 

## general that data-gathering process. 10 

## And we've been mostly talking about the 11 

## manufacturer costs, data, or engineering decisions. 12 

## But also the other issues around shipment data, which 13 

## is typically gathered through the trade associations 14 

## by shares -- not provided because I'm curious whether 15 

## -- 16 

## Were you raising your hand or were you 17 

## just typing with flourish? 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just typing my to-do 19 

## list. 20 

## MR. deLASKI: On the shipment side of 21 

## things is that data generally being shared these days 22 

## or is that an area where there's been -- whereAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 163 1 

## there's tensions that would be helpful for us to talk 2 

## about. 3 

## MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. There's a 4 

## couple different things. Not everybody and when that 5 

## happens, those pieces are going to fall apart. 6 

## That's what is in our industry. So you can talk 7 

## about the trade association giving their permission, 8 

## but until some of the majors who are not --are 9 

## willing to give up information and unfortunately a 10 

## lot of the majors that are not are companies. 11 

## They're very protective of data. 12 

## MR. deLASKI: So how does DOE handle it? 13 

## You don't? Any ideas? A manufacturer could provide 14 

## it under NDA but you're suggesting that there to do 15 

## so that they'll have to. 16 

## MR. HON: In today's society, everybody is 17 

## worried about that. 18 

## MR. deLASKI: Yeah. The trade 19 

## associations they have their rules that protect. 20 

## MR. HON: Trade associations are still not 21 

## immune to acting. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, may I suggest thatAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 164 1 

## this is one that we all think about. Maybe not right 2 

## for action yet, but, you know, I think we've got a 3 

## way to do it now, I need to do our estimates, we put 4 

## them out for an open comment. People do comment on 5 

## them regularly, some of them have a lot of hard data 6 

## behind them, some of them have more partial sets of 7 

## data that have been aggregated behind them. We do, 8 

## do our best with what's available and we do put it 9 

## out for comment. So -- 10 

## MR. deLASKI: Right. And in my experience 11 

## I've seen plenty of shipment numbers, change from the 12 

## PPSP to the proposals and often by pretty significant 13 

## margins. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's fair to say a 15 

## lot of things change between the to the rulemakings. 16 

## MR. deLASKI: In response to the input 17 

## that's being received as the process rolls forward. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. Which is a 19 

## good thing. 20 

## MR. ECKMAN: This is Tom Eckman. I would 21 

## just note that in the rulemakings where we've -- 22 

## before they've been negotiated rulemakings, I thinkAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 165 1 

## that there are actually other parties with a better 2 

## data set than the standard rulemaking time to go back 3 

## to clarify, no, that's not what I meant. I know you 4 

## think I said that, but I didn't. This column is over 5 

## here. And I think that was particularly in the we 6 

## got a lot of -- in that phase of development the 7 

## manufacturers and trade associations before us. 8 

## MR. MANDYCK: Maybe just a final comment 9 

## on that. This is John Mandyck. I also wouldn't want 10 

## to miss the opportunity to say there's the 11 

## opportunity to be transparent on both sides. Because 12 

## while DOE may be frustrated that manufacturers may be 13 

## perhaps not as transparent as I wished they would be 14 

## with data, manufacturers are the same as with DOE 15 

## analysis that comes out when very complicated and 16 

## sophisticated that are locked down and you can't 17 

## understand the basis for which assumptions are made, 18 

## et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I think there's 19 

## plenty for both sides to think about. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I could respond, I'll 21 

## refrain. 22 

## (Laughter.)Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 166 1 

## MR. deLASKI: But it does strike me that 2 

## there's this issue -- I thank you for bringing that 3 

## other side to it out there on the table discussed 4 

## elsewhere. And I think it's continuing friction and 5 

## to the degree that we can think about methods to 6 

## reduce these friction points that will help the 7 

## program do the job to the Department. 8 

## You know, I don't know what the central 9 

## task is -- some time today to identify more 10 

## specifically. We need to be specific in identifying 11 

## the example then we can talk about it. But as an 12 

## assertion, right, wouldn't get me very far because I 13 

## am probably -- put it back on you and others on this 14 

## table to describe, you know, where is it that you're 15 

## not seeing the transparency? Example of transparency 16 

## and where you want to see transparency. Because, you 17 

## know, I think we all like transparency. I like 18 

## transparency. So how do we define where it's lacking 19 

## specifically so we can address it? 20 

## MS. JAKOBS: Are you asking that? 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we think about it? 22 

## Can that be our homework?Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 167 1 

## MR. deLASKI: I put the homework on the 2 

## team to think about, you know, what -- how would you 3 

## define it? How would you be more specific about what 4 

## you want to see? 5 

## As an assertion, sure, we all want better 6 

## transaparency. Absolutely. 7 

## MS. JAKOBS: Can I just say on the 8 

## equipment life and then the life of the savings and, 9 

## I mean, the horizon keeps moving on and on and the 10 

## amount of energy that you're saving on these tiny 11 

## changes sometimes is for the commercial furnace. So 12 

## they're thinking about 2 percent in thermal 13 

## efficiency and it's so big where to me, I mean, a lot 14 

## of the commercial gas furnaces don't really run that 15 

## much because they're all in buildings that generate 16 

## their own heating bills. Some of those types of 17 

## assumptions and they're not -- they're more 18 

## economical to me. I don't really -- it's not the 19 

## manufacturer beyond and I don't even know how you 20 

## come up with these long lives when we're just only 21 

## been building these certain technologies for five 22 

## years or something. They haven't been out on theAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 168 1 

## market -- to me the lifetime center in some of the 2 

## NOPRs is kind of mysterious. 3 

## And as much as I can in those 4 

## spreadsheets, I can change that number and it seems 5 

## like it makes a way big difference. 6 

## MR. deLASKI: I guess I don't want to get 7 

## too bogged down in any lifetime because it strikes me 8 

## initiatives. 9 

## I know what the ASHRAC has to be, because 10 

## again but I don't see us as sort of specific 11 

## rulemaking. 12 

## MS. JAKOBS: No. 13 

## MR. deLASKI: Publishes the source. 14 

## MS. JAKOBS: And it is another area like 15 

## you know, you come out in a big way and say, oh, no, 16 

## it won't last 30 years, it will only last 20 years. 17 

## That's not likely going to happen. Someone will 18 

## pushback on that. 19 

## MR. deLASKI: Yeah, to me this is one of 20 

## these examples -- if someone's got data that. 21 

## Otherwise the Department has the data they have. And 22 

## usually if you got the sales, you got the stock, youAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 169 1 

## know the growth of housing, you got the lifetime. 2 

## MS. JAKOBS: I think that's one area it 3 

## was kind of mysterious for there was a paper that Jim 4 

## Lusk did. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Forgive me for that one. 6 

## The working group to discuss all of that. So that 7 

## can all be teed up for that working group. But, no, 8 

## I mean, it's for -- we try to be as transparent as 9 

## possible. I'd like to say that we're way more 10 

## transparent than we ever have been to the extent 11 

## that, you know, there's a couple reasons why we. I 12 

## think it depends on what you're talking about, but I 13 

## think 99.9 percent of the ones that I can think of 14 

## right now are not hidden, everything is in there. So 15 

## it's not an issue of hiding or transparency. It's an 16 

## issue of model functionality. And we believe that 17 

## that model should function the way that it was 18 

## intended to be functioning by the Department. To the 19 

## extent you want to create a different model with 20 

## different functionalities, you can. So, you know, 21 

## with that in mind, I think we table this one and 22 

## start wrapping up because we are almost at our thingAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 170 1 

## and I can see people kind of packing up. So it would 2 

## be good to at least figure out where we're going, 3 

## including myself. 4 

## MR. deLASKI: Well, let's do that. I 5 

## think it is important that we talk about our next 6 

## steps. We're down to our last 20 minutes or so here 7 

## and I do want to schedule our next meeting and 8 

## perhaps our next two meetings. So let's talk about 9 

## -- the group's thoughts on how to do the work going 10 

## forward. We've talked about creating a couple of 11 

## subcommittees. So I guess let me open it up to the 12 

## group for thoughts on how to do the work going 13 

## forward. 14 

## MS. JAKOBS: Are you asking for volunteers 15 

## now? 16 

## MR. deLASKI: Well, I guess the question 17 

## that we have, are we going to -- I started this 18 

## morning with the concept that we form perhaps a 19 

## couple of subgroups to tackle a couple of different 20 

## issues. Is that where we're ending up today? Or are 21 

## we ending up with, did you want just one subgroup 22 

## suggested earlier a few items have been identified toAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 171 1 

## a couple of things identified, one to Tom and one to 2 

## put off to Ashley for further and also to the 3 

## manufacturers in general on further investigation. 4 

## PARTICIPANT: And the other one is. 5 

## MR. deLASKI: Yeah. 6 

## Right. 7 

## So let me just open it. Are there 8 

## volunteers who have heard particular tasks that have 9 

## been gestating in your minds today that you'd like to 10 

## volunteer on to advance before our next meeting? 11 

## John? 12 

## MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey. I mean, 13 

## if there is interest from other members I would be 14 

## happy to do something on the system at least to scope 15 

## it out and see where we can go with that if there is 16 

## a path to move forward or whether just over a dead 17 

## issue. I would certainly be happy to work. 18 

## MR. deLASKI: Who wants to join John in 19 

## that subgroup? 20 

## David, are you volunteering? 21 

## MS. MILLER: I can do that. I volunteer 22 

## for everything.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 172 1 

## (Laughter.) 2 

## MR. deLASKI: Well, I think having the two 3 

## of you guys work on that to advance it before our 4 

## next discussion to sort of see is there, you know, as 5 

## you suggested define the project and what are the 6 

## four or five steps or whatever, three steps that 7 

## might need to be taken to advance it before our next 8 

## meeting would be fantastic. 9 

## MR. CASKEY: Okay. 10 

## And Diane will join you. 11 

## David as well. So David, Diane, and John. 12 

## Okay. Are there other things that people 13 

## heard today that they wanted to step up and volunteer 14 

## to take the lead on? 15 

## MS. CLEARY: This is Jen. I think the 16 

## test procedure issues that we talked about kept 17 

## coming back to that and adding to it. But I think 18 

## that maybe the first step there is for us to identify 19 

## some concrete areas for discussion that might be able 20 

## to be divided into a subgroup. So under -- I would 21 

## like to volunteer if maybe someone else wants to work 22 

## with me to figure out how that can be broken down andAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 173 1 

## then maybe identify some specific needs and then 2 

## maybe we could at our next meeting talk about that 3 

## and get some volunteers for each of those groups. 4 

## MR. deLASKI: So that makes sense. So 5 

## what I'm hearing you say is that the things that we 6 

## kept lumping into number one need to be advanced and 7 

## that you're volunteering to be part of a subgroup 8 

## that would work with this to better take the notes 9 

## from today, the transcript, your own independent 10 

## thoughts and develop a more specific next steps? 11 

## MS. CLEARY: Yes, that's what I'm 12 

## suggesting. 13 

## MR. deLASKI: Who would join Jen in this 14 

## group? 15 

## MR. ECKMAN: I will be working on that 16 

## anyway, so -- 17 

## MR. deLASKI: Essentially tackling the one 18 

## in five combined along with what we put in there with 19 

## respect to coordinating with test methods developed 20 

## by trade associations and professional organizations. 21 

## Charlie Hon agreed joining you in that 22 

## group.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 174 1 

## MS. KLINE: And Kelley Kline, too. 2 

## MR. deLASKI: Kelley and Diane and Tom, 3 

## Tom Eckman. 4 

## So just checking off our list here, that 5 

## checks off items one, two, -- 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Three and five. 7 

## MR. deLASKI: -- part of three, three and 8 

## five. I didn't decide that four was -- that we're 9 

## not going to pursue. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 11 

## MR. deLASKI: And we decided that item six 12 

## -- 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Six and seven are with me. 14 

## MR. deLASKI: -- are on Ashley to consult 15 

## with her counsel and then eight also was something 16 

## for Ashley and the manufacturers to think about in 17 

## terms of is there some process there that would 18 

## enable a better understanding an improved 19 

## manufacturing process and data sharing. So eight was 20 

## also with Ashley and also individual manufacturers 21 

## from the trade groups. 22 

## (Simultaneous conversation.)Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 175 1 

## (Laughter.) 2 

## MR. deLASKI: Let's look at our calendars. 3 

## How much -- what kind of timeframe would make sense 4 

## until our next meeting? 5 

## MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck. When 6 

## do we have working group reports required back to us? 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, mid-June. 8 

## MR. deLASKI: June 15th is the deadline 9 

## that we set for the commercial -- 10 

## MS. JAKOBS: So sometime after that, 11 

## please. 12 

## MR. deLASKI: Webinar -- 13 

## MS. JAKOBS: Oh, okay. Okay. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Conceivably that week 15 

## would be good so go ahead and pass it to DOE. 16 

## MR. deLASKI: So you are the person to 17 

## handle that. Fine, you do that. That will give us 18 

## enough time to advance this work? That's only a 19 

## month and a half? Does that seem reasonable to you, 20 

## Jen and Kelley, a month and a half from now to meet 21 

## again? 22 

## MS. CLEARY: Fine with me.Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 176 1 

## MS. KLINE: Me too. 2 

## MR. deLASKI: So the week of June 15? 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: The 15th is a Monday, the 4 

## 16th is a Tuesday, the 17th is a Wednesday. 5 

## MS. JAKOBS: The 16th, 17th, or 18th 6 

## works. 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Can you call in? 8 

## MR. MANDYCK: I don't know that yet. 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 10 

## MR. ECKMAN: The 18th would be much better 11 

## for me. 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: The 18th does work better 13 

## for you? Does the 18th work for everyone else? 14 

## PARTICIPANT: No, that's the one day I 15 

## can't -- 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 17 

## MR. deLASKI: The 18th or 19th works. 18 

## Well, we can do the 19th, but finish up early enough 19 

## that you can fly out. 20 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 21 

## (Laughter.) 22 

## MR. deLASKI: Was there an objection toAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 177 1 

## the 17th? 2 

## MR. ECKMAN: I could make the 17th, but 3 

## I'd have to -- 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you call in? 5 

## MR. ECKMAN: I can. I can do that. 6 

## MR. deLASKI: Is that better, to call in 7 

## on the 17th? 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: The 17th, it is. 9 

## MS. JAKOBS: Is there too many people 10 

## calling in? Could we all just call in? 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: You can call in? 12 

## MS. JAKOBS: When we get closer? 13 

## (Simultaneous conversation.) 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: You will never be the only 15 

## one here. 16 

## (Laughter.) 17 

## MR. deLASKI: We had the discussion at our 18 

## last meeting that, you know, we had done a number of 19 

## meetings. I didn't make a lot of progress. We had a 20 

## couple people on the phone today. You know, I think 21 

## that the problem -- 22 

## MR. deLASKI: I thought we were zeroing inAppliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 178 

### 1 

## on the 17th? 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we go off the record 3 

## for this? 4 

## (Whereupon, at 2:38 p.m., the meeting was 5 

## adjourned.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 179 **A a.m**  1:11 5:2 **A2** 87:19 **A2L** 87:19 **A3** 87:18 **ability** 49:8 130:12 **able** 6:20 11:20 32:4 44:13 46:1 ,8 52:7 53:9 80:7 125:20 130:22 135:10 151:9 158:5 161:8 172:19 **absence** 39:5 **absolutely** 28:10 97:14 113:5 131:5 164:18 167:6 **AC** 11:16 **academic** 112:18 **academics** 112:9,10 **ACCA** 3:17 **accept** 29:10 **acceptable** 142:16 142:17 **acceptance** 119:5 **access** 34:22 127:9 131:7 156:12 **accomplice** 38:16 **accomplished** 64:19 **account** 32:6 **Accountability** 122:2 **accounted** 78:12 **accurate** 36:5 ,8 48:6 76:2 124:6 124:12 149:5 **Achilles** 59:10 **acknowledge** 35:2 59:11 **acknowledgement** 61:12 **acknowledging** 117:15 **act** 107:18 **acting** 163:21 **action** 18:8 83:8 102:6,7 114:12,15 114:17 ,22 136:14 146:18 162:4 164:2 **actions** 18:10 116:10 137:2 **active** 30:4 58:4,11 124:12 **actively** 83:22 84:4 84:21 105:8 **acts** 38:12 **actual** 82:21 114:3 117:11 **Adam** 2:20 **add** 9:18 29:15 31:2 32:19,21 33:3 38:19 53:4 117:20 128:9 144:15 ,17 150:21 **added** 8:11 30:16 80:21 **adding** 31:6 172:17 **addition** 23:1 ,12 150:3 **additional** 8:11 21:20 30:15 31:5 102:13 103:13 140:12 **additions** 9:15 31:9 33:1 ,10 **address** 18:6 20:9 20:10 21:22 31:16 43:5 46:1 ,4,5 51:3 54:22 80:6 91:21 102:9 143:21 154:21 166:19 **addressed** 18:5 76:8 **addresses** 17:15 **addressing** 17:16 **adds** 15:9 **adjourned** 178:5 **adjust** 32:6 **administrative** 24:4 **administrative-type** 46:6 **administrator** 90:10,11 **admonition** 66:9 **adopt** 65:2,3 96:12 **adopted** 32:5 **adoption** 93:11 **advance** 7:17 8:5 9:2 154:2 171:10 172:3 ,7 175:18 **advanced** 13:22 173:6 **advancing** 8:19 **advantage** 71:14 72:4 130:15 148:7 **advice** 13:18,21 ,22 14:6 99:7 **advise** 25:11 **advisers** 27:7 **advising** 18:11 **advisory** 1:2 13:14 24:20 **advocacy** 28:4 63:20

**advocate** 46:20 106:5 **advocates** 44:3 108:10 109:2 112:8 135:5 **affairs** 58:21 62:13 83:12 **affect** 15:15 74:1 82:4,11 144:10 **afternoon** 19:6 **AFUE** 15:3 16:16 74:10 75:9 77:15 78:5 79:1 143:5 **agencies** 28:4 81:2 84:16,22 88:4,22 91:9,11 93:2 **agency** 13:19,22 21:17 36:4 67:3 75:16 83:7 102:21 116:11 119:22 121:13 ,19 140:6 147:9 **agency's** 83:10 88:22 **agenda** 7:5 ,17 8:17 9:14,16 13:11 49:18 103:6 114:20,22 146:21 **ages** 36:22 **aggregated** 164:7 **ago** 74:11 83:2 106:17 120:5 ,8 123:8 **agree** 43:8 46:21 49:10 50:6 58:22 59:15 62:11 74:16 75:4 76:21 81:8 91:3 95:22 96:1 113:2 117:19 118:14 138:4 150:2 **agreed** 90:16 173:21 **AGREEMENT** 12:18 **agrees** 54:12 **AHAM** 6:17 46:3 65:8 93:7 104:7 **ahead** 51:8,20 72:6 103:7 151:16 175:15 **AHRI** 63:10 65:6 65:12 93:7 104:8 110:2 **air** 2:6 6:2 10:8,11 11:11 87:8,20 89:12 110:9 111:3 135:21 ,22 156:7 **Air-Conditioning** 2:22 3:2,4,6,8 **Alex** 3:12 **algorithms** 130:21 130:21 **align** 27:17 **allegations** 105:2 **Allen** 2:18 **alliance** 44:15 **Allied** 2:6 6:1 **alternative** 86:17 87:20 140:1 **alternatives** 86:19 86:20 **ambiguity** 54:22 **ambiguous** 142:19 **amenable** 77:1 **amended** 138:20,21 **amendment** 43:17 144:2 **American** 3:18 **amount** 70:17 141:13 167:10 **Amy** 3:4 **analyses** 15:6 33:19 **analysis** 10:16 12:3 12:4 23:18 36:5 ,8 43:20 53:15 68:2 68:17 69:8 109:4 109:5 ,8 113:14 116:4,12,15 ,17 117:1 ,10,16 118:1 120:13 ,21 123:4 126:16,19 136:2,4 138:20 141:18 147:7 165:15 **analytical** 122:16 **and/or** 131:19 132:1 **Andrew** 2:10,18 5:10 16:22 20:2 24:17 28:15 31:14 37:6 46:19 56:14 91:1 133:4 134:7 144:18 151:13 **anger** 29:12 **angry** 26:5 **announced** 120:7 **answer** 34:8 83:12 114:4 125:13 133:16 134:10 146:2 153:12,13 **answers** 21:4,7 **anti-back-lighting** 32:13

**anticipate** 134:19 **Anurag** 4:2 **anybody** 148:19 **anybody's** 49:11 ,18 **anyway** 27:2 116:16 117:13 173:16 **AP** 75:21 **apart** 163:5 **apparently** 121:20 **appealing** 158:13 **Appearances** 2:1 **applecart** 67:10 **appliance** 1:2 2:10 3:14 5:11 13:15 15:16 25:12 27:22 89:11 114:6 **appliances** 62:22 81:9,10,13 **applicable** 73:7 111:21 **application** 73:11 **applications** 39:14 39:15 40:1 67:20 82:2 **applies** 39:11 **apply** 36:16 50:16 68:1 **appointment** 27:7 **appreciate** 57:18 **appreciated** 65:12 **approach** 24:1 50:6 75:6 158:10 **approve** 12:17 **approved** 10:6 **approving** 7:18 35:7 86:8,8 **April** 1:12 **area** 9:3 18:20 75:1 93:1 100:8 111:10 155:6 159:14 162:22 168:14 169:2 **areas** 30:8 39:2 49:16 70:5 98:1 102:11 ,13 103:13 124:15 149:12 153:1 172:19 **argue** 58:19 **arms** 82:7 **Armstrong** 2:4 6:14 6:14 10:5 18:16 20:6,21 21:3 ,13 22:7,9 24:15 ,19 26:22 28:10 33:12 33:14 34:14 35:10Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 180 35:14 57:20 58:1 62:17 64:15 66:7 69:17 73:17 74:7 75:11 81:3 83:11 84:20 92:20 93:18 96:4 97:13 ,20 98:21 100:1 ,4,9 100:14,20 103:19 104:1 ,4 105:7 106:15 109:22 110:18 113:2,5 ,18 114:1 120:3 121:1 121:14,16,22 122:6,10 124:4 126:8 127:3 ,11 ,17 129:4,8,16 131:16 138:16 139:13 141:6 143:9 145:19 146:16,22 147:18 156:2 159:1 ,20 160:6 162:18 163:22 164:14,18 165:20 166:21 169:5 174:6,10,13 175:7 175:14 176:3 ,7,9 176:12,16 177:4,8 177:11 ,14 178:2 **articulate** 146:1 **ASAP** 2:11 **Ashley** 2:4 6:14 10:4 17:10 18:13 18:17 21:21 24:16 33:13 41:9 45:22 50:10 52:18 57:22 62:14 65:19 68:16 83:6 84:18 91:3 92:20 107:20 120:1 123:18 131:13 136:16 137:6 138:16 140:17 145:17 146:20 154:9 171:2 174:14,16 174:20 **Ashley's** 26:3 69:3 121:20 **ASHRAC** 168:9 **ASHRAE** 30:19,22 33:4,6 60:13 64:22 65:5 80:21 83:3 92:13 93:7 98:9,18 103:17 104:14 105:2,17 105:21 ,22 106:10 106:18 107:14,15 107:18 108:4,19

109:3 ,6,19,19,21 110:10,22 111:3 ,5 111:11 ,12,13 112:4,4 115:5 ,8 **aside** 44:21 **asked** 8:1 13:5 21:18,18 52:16 91:1 98:4 124:4 124:14 153:11 155:2 **asking** 18:12 30:14 31:5 121:2,3 148:15 154:4 156:15 158:6 166:20 170:14 **aspect** 120:18 **aspects** 118:17 120:10 **ASRAC** 5:11 ,15 6:10 10:6 11:2,15 13:13 17:20 22:5 22:22 30:21 32:9 38:4 91:5 92:11 92:22 114:15 144:22 145:20 147:16,21 **ASRAC's** 137:2 **ASRAE** 96:13 ,17 **assertion** 123:15 166:12 167:5 **assertive** 13:18 **assess** 116:14 **assessment** 34:12 83:16,18 **assessments** 69:8 **associated** 112:11 138:20 **Associates** 5:17 **association** 2:8 3:10 3:18 5:20 163:7 **associations** 29:19 30:4 36:2 67:5 90:8 111:12,19 112:1 ,3 113:10 115:16 160:22 161:11 162:13 163:19,20 165:7 173:20 **assumption** 39:8,11 150:18,19 **assumptions** 132:13 155:5 ,12 165:17 167:17 **attention** 49:17 105:4 133:14 143:16

**attentions** 116:7 **attorneys** 26:15 **audience** 14:5 **auditorium** 26:14 **authority** 75:22 85:9 **available** 46:11 86:15 ,18,22 128:19 164:8 **avenue** 1:8 131:22 **avenues** 19:12 35:15 ,19 157:5 **average** 69:6 **avoid** 55:17 **aware** 85:14 102:20 **Awareness** 2:10 3:14 5:12 **awful** 162:1 **awkward** 56:1 **Aykut** 3:6 **B back**  8:17 12:5 21:7 23:19 24:11 26:2 29:1 ,9,13 40:20 42:1 48:11 52:13 52:13 54:20 90:3 90:3 ,19 95:10 97:16,21 99:16,17 102:8 111:4 114:2 116:2 120:17 122:9 123:15 ,18 125:5 136:18 137:1 ,3 141:17 143:8 145:20 146:5 ,12 151:21 152:13 153:8 155:2 157:10 165:2 166:13 172:17 175:6 **backend** 157:12 **background** 41:22 **backlash** 29:12 **backslide** 55:12 75:11 146:3 **backsliding** 144:3 **backup** 79:9 **bad** 34:3 **bang** 70:14 **bang-for-the-buck** 140:20 **bare** 71:9,18 **barriers** 36:6 41:10 **base** 93:9 105:20 130:18 146:12 **based** 36:8 47:6

155:5 **baseline** 44:4 152:8 **basic** 45:7 137:21 **basically** 44:17 71:1 115:10 121:5 ,12 147:4 **basing** 44:11 **basis** 116:20 120:15 146:7 165:17 **battery** 100:18 101:1 **bear** 85:22 **becoming** 116:22 **bed** 131:3 **began** 147:1 **beginning** 47:11 53:15 143:19 **begins** 47:1 **behalf** 6:5 11:18 27:5 **believe** 11:1 27:21 65:17 78:22 169:16 **belongs** 99:16 **beneath** 138:12 **beneficial** 74:1 **benefit** 131:20 **benefits** 79:12 150:11 **Berkeley** 3:11 ,12 **best** 7:16 28:6 35:1 68:8 79:1 84:19 104:19 108:18 110:1 116:14 126:20 148:2 149:3 150:18 151:8 164:8 **better** 17:12,15 18:2 18:5 23:22 27:10 27:17 33:19 34:5 34:8 35:4,21 36:8 37:21 39:2 40:3 51:16 52:6 72:8 84:3 90:14 94:15 99:15 107:8 110:15 116:7 119:13 130:10 135:19 147:2,15 147:19,22 154:11 154:12 156:16 157:13 160:4 165:1 167:5 173:8 174:18 176:10,12 177:6 **beyond** 29:17 33:6 104:13 105:16 140:12 167:19 **big** 52:9 56:9 65:5 68:4 77:15 88:6 132:12 141:15 159:11 ,19 167:13 168:5 ,15 **biggest** 14:10 138:1 **bill** 58:12 **bills** 64:6 167:16 **bit** 7:11 ,21 8:13 9:10 30:9 49:7 50:10 57:2 60:15 63:11 70:22 73:19 74:11 92:9 120:7 126:14 129:11 133:5 ,7 142:6 144:19 145:9 151:22 161:3 **black-and-white** 95:20 **blah** 15:21 ,21 ,21 **blah-blah-blah** 155:9 **blow** 116:21 **blower** 78:16 **blowers** 11:4 16:6 **blowing** 104:10 **board** 51:11 94:1 95:18 140:7 141:16 **bodies** 33:5 82:10 93:8,8 95:13 99:15 **bogged** 168:7 **Boiler** 3:16,21 **book** 96:13 108:12 **bother** 125:8 **bought** 127:18 **boundaries** 35:4 **bounded** 109:18 **box** 74:17 **brainstorm** 19:22 33:17 **break** 11:22 100:21 100:21 **breakdown** 148:21 **bridge** 60:7 70:22 97:1 **bridging** 59:7 **brilliant** 15:20 **bring** 27:4 34:6 36:7 74:5 81:2 137:1 146:14 **bringing** 27:13 113:9 144:20Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 181 166:2 **brings** 34:7 143:7 **brining** 49:3 **broad** 82:5 108:6 **broad-based** 133:5 **broadcast** 5:5 **broaden** 18:7 137:11 **broader** 19:1 35:11 37:9 50:11 75:3 92:13 113:3 **broadly** 34:10 51:20 69:4 73:6 96:6 **broken** 147:11 ,13 172:22 **brought** 19:19 34:17 59:19 80:20 94:4 96:11 120:16 **buck** 70:14 **bucket** 61:3 124:7 **buckets** 148:13 **bug** 129:14,17 **building** 1:7 76:7,11 76:16 167:21 **buildings** 40:19 130:17 167:15 **built** 77:7 118:5 **bunch** 94:17 137:15 155:1 158:14 **bundling** 78:17 **burden** 83:15 90:4 131:7 **Burnham** 3:19 **business** 66:1 ,5 74:13 149:1 **busy** 15:22 **buying** 156:8 **C C**  5:1 **calculating** 15:3 **calculations** 16:17 **calendar** 9:8,12 125:5 **calendars** 175:2 **California** 2:14,14 6:8 36:21 37:17 76:5 130:4,6 **call** 59:3 61:17 121:14 176:7 177:4,6,10,11 **calling** 177:10 **capacity** 48:17 51:14 130:5 **capture** 39:9 52:7 80:7,11 ,12 **captured** 124:9

143:20 **capturing** 80:10 143:5 **Caroline** 2:22 **Carrier** 155:16 **carrying** 28:22 **cascade** 87:9 **cascading** 144:10 **case** 61:14 113:13 134:8 **cases** 44:13 ,19 61:1 61:8 83:15 ,17 140:11 147:7 154:3 **Caskey** 2:7 5:19,19 22:1 ,1 ,8,11 56:14 56:14 57:1 ,4,14 57:16 68:13 ,19 69:21 70:2 115:3 115:3 ,9 122:13 ,13 140:16,16 150:1 ,1 171:12,12 172:9 **Caskey's** 161:17 **categories** 63:22 73:9 133:22 **category** 74:17 75:8 86:16 87:1 **Catherine** 2:19 **causal** 50:5 **caveat** 58:5 124:5 **CEC** 83:22 **center** 168:1 **central** 166:8 **certain** 15:16 39:2 60:10 61:17 75:8 81:15 83:16 85:8 85:9,10 108:14 110:22 112:10 120:9 124:14 127:18 128:2 131:5 156:3 167:21 **certainly** 19:18 22:3 30:21 43:9 44:11 44:13 46:21 48:14 48:21 63:5 120:11 150:2 159:8 171:17 **certification** 26:13 83:18 **certify** 83:20 **cetera** 139:1 ,1 165:18,18,18 **CFA** 93:8 **chair** 111:17 ,19 113:17

**challenge** 28:17 38:3 43:15 60:15 72:12,16 **challenged** 92:5 **challenges** 46:1 **challenging** 45:21 **chance** 68:11 124:8 153:14 **change** 14:17 31:21 45:8,9 55:6,7 59:3 59:20 61:18,21 65:13 ,14 66:18 97:8,9 100:17 106:13 119:15 128:3 144:9,13 ,13 145:7 164:11 ,15 168:4 **change-out** 73:1 **changed** 60:6 67:9 106:19 120:22 122:20 **changes** 12:5 14:13 19:9,10 20:10 31:17,21 32:1 ,6 34:16 46:6 65:9 67:12 84:8 99:5 143:21 167:11 **changing** 55:17 101:1 144:6 **characterization** 36:9 **characterize** 37:10 37:15 ,21 **characterized** 50:2 **characterizes** 36:2,3 **charge** 67:15 100:11 **Charles** 2:13 **Charlie** 5:21 11:1 28:20 29:16 30:2 65:1 81:11 85:17 89:3 97:2 98:12 163:3 173:21 **charter** 22:22 92:22 **charters** 28:22 **cheap** 131:9 **check** 103:3 **checking** 174:4 **checks** 174:5 **chicken-and-egg** 47:16 **child** 6:18 **chime** 65:5 133:16 **choose** 39:3 89:16 **CHORUS** 12:18 **Christine** 3:17

**Christopher** 2:21 **circle** 114:2 151:21 **circuit** 51:11 **circumstances** 154:18 **cited** 46:9 **clarification** 61:19 62:8 68:13 115:4 145:14 146:10 **clarify** 138:17 165:3 **clarity** 62:9 **class** 79:10 **classes** 79:17 **clean** 127:15 **clear** 19:20 53:19 109:12 140:11 **clearest** 32:3 **clearly** 107:13 ,22 108:15 143:14 **Cleary** 6:17,17,22 31:4,4,12 42:16 43:3 80:17 90:22 117:6,17 144:16 172:15 173:11 175:22 **climatability** 87:11 **close** 55:9 61:14 74:22 **closely** 84:6 **closer** 143:3 ,3 177:12 **clothes** 32:3 **co-chairs** 5:11 **cochair** 5:15 **codes** 87:12 **coffee** 159:21 **cognizant** 92:18 154:21 **Cohen** 145:9 **Cohen's** 115:13 **coil** 155:6,7 **coils** 155:3 **collaborative** 148:1 **collapsed** 42:8 **collect** 15:5 38:21 40:20 125:7 127:3 127:14 129:22 130:13 131:11 136:12 151:7,9 **collected** 134:20 154:13 **collecting** 14:19 149:15 **collection** 125:11 129:19 130:1 ,7 152:1 ,12

**collective** 156:18 **collectively** 53:10 63:20 141:8,17 **collision** 90:3 **column** 165:4 **combine** 42:19 **combined** 42:3 69:1 77:19 173:18 **come** 15:20 17:14 22:12,21 24:10 35:20 38:11 41:18 47:14,20 56:1 61:4 62:7 64:6,7,8 65:5 86:2 97:9 100:15 102:8 105:9 121:6 122:4 126:9,13 140:21 146:3 155:2,14 167:20 168:15 **comes** 16:12 59:17 60:3 76:6 98:14 98:16 131:9 134:14 153:21 ,22 165:15 **comet** 64:8 **coming** 14:22 20:22 58:4 60:2 81:12 91:20 105:14 117:18 148:19 156:17 162:5 172:17 **comment** 25:9 38:5 88:11 ,16,22 98:15 98:16 99:1 103:8 117:2,20 138:4,13 138:14 145:15 160:9 161:17 164:4,4,9 165:8 **commented** 80:20 117:2 **comments** 12:7 26:1 69:3 74:16 91:6 91:10 93:5 115:17 115:18 122:11 **commercial** 10:8,10 10:11 11:4,11 ,16 15:19 38:1 63:9 78:15 104:15 110:9 151:9 167:11 ,14 175:9 **Commission** 2:15 6:9 **commitments** 90:9 **committee** 1:3 5:6 6:8,15 7:2 8:19Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 182 10:16 11:2,19 12:3 13:17 20:4,5 20:12,19 24:20 27:5 ,8 29:3 32:14 41:16 43:4 59:17 60:11 68:8 73:18 74:13 97:4,7,10 97:10 100:1 102:10 103:4 106:18 113:6 116:9 122:9 132:1 137:1 145:13 146:1 159:4 **committee's** 21:5 **committees** 10:7 14:9 55:4 94:9,10 94:17,20,22 97:15 98:1 ,3 107:15 **common** 53:13 160:13 ,17 161:9 **communicating** 29:13 ,17,22 **communications** 30:9 **community** 38:4 96:22 106:5 124:22 150:14,15 150:16 **companies** 30:3 ,7 128:15 155:13 156:21 160:16,18 161:9 163:10 **company** 2:16 3:16 155:14,14 160:11 **compare** 74:2 **compared** 52:2 **comparison** 127:20 128:4 **competitors** 55:22 **complete** 34:4 41:3 54:15 **completed** 139:12 139:14,15 **completely** 35:17,18 52:3 63:13 65:17 93:12 98:17 **compliance** 76:16 **complicated** 165:15 **complied** 149:10,10 **complies** 71:19 **comply** 49:9 60:18 60:22 71:18,20 **component** 77:7 **components** 77:9,19 78:11 130:17 **comprehensive** 8:10 **compromise** 142:20

**computer** 111:2 148:22 **Conceivably** 175:14 **concept** 137:4 138:2 170:18 **concern** 17:16 20:12 75:2,3 142:11 148:14 149:6,7 **concerned** 51:13 133:12 **concerns** 12:12 17:12 18:1 27:5 29:22 32:10 35:2 35:17 120:15 135:13 147:19,20 **concrete** 172:19 **concur** 138:13 ,13 **concurrently** 63:4 **conditioners** 10:8 10:11 11:11 110:9 111:3 **conditioning** 87:9 87:20 89:12 135:21 ,22 **confidential** 66:1 ,5 **configurations** 72:15 73:9 **confusion** 15:1 ,9 53:21 **Congress** 63:21 66:19 78:1 **conjoined** 68:6 **connected** 29:20 **connection** 115:5 **conscious** 41:16 **consensus** 54:18 68:15 93:9 106:10 123:16 **consequences** 64:4 **Conservation** 2:12 6:11 **consider** 27:9 32:9 58:14,14 74:17 140:9 141:9,20 **consideration** 59:7 93:10 137:2 141:7 **considerations** 59:17 141:9 146:8 **considered** 59:22 65:15 **considering** 28:7 73:5 139:22 **consistent** 136:21 **consolidate** 115:21 **constantly** 16:2

**constraints** 95:11 **construct** 80:10 **construction** 77:2 **constructive** 21:10 26:12 **consult** 174:14 **consultant** 2:9 121:6 126:5 153:21 154:8 **consultants** 12:5 118:2 135:5 151:10 153:9 154:3 **consulting** 116:12 116:19 150:15 **consumer** 74:21 127:5 ,10 162:2 **consumers** 161:19 **consumption** 37:16 37:20 38:15 59:4 59:21 61:18 129:22 143:6,22 **contend** 85:4 **content** 93:20 **context** 31:21 59:19 98:9 144:22 145:8 **continuance** 113:7 **continue** 46:8 91:2 91:5 92:2 119:20 137:3 **continuing** 25:13 166:4 **continuous** 118:20 **contract** 121:12 **contracting** 150:15 **contractor** 128:19 **contractors** 65:19 128:17 137:9 148:14 158:16 **contradictory** 132:15 **contribute** 153:3 **control** 7:8 52:6 71:3 72:8,17 75:21 76:9 81:13 85:18 116:16 123:5 ,20 **controlled** 67:4 70:12 81:15 **controlling** 51:16 **controls** 51:2,3 70:14 71:16 80:7 121:19 **controversial** 46:7 132:17 **conversation** 41:12

49:22 52:21 72:3 77:20 78:7 81:5 96:22 101:3 104:3 129:12 142:3 143:1 ,13 159:17 174:22 176:20 177:13 **conversations** 12:7 83:22 102:22 148:12 156:14 **conversion** 56:5 **convey** 14:6 **convincing** 109:12 **cool** 142:13 **cooled** 111:2,2 **coordinate** 84:21 102:14,21 103:13 **coordinated** 90:18 **coordinating** 102:12,12 173:19 **coordination** 37:19 85:13 88:16,18 90:5 ,14 91:4,8 92:16 93:2 99:15 102:16 **coordinator** 22:5 **core** 110:14 **corollary** 35:7 127:1 **correct** 16:20 22:5 **correctly** 11:1 **Cory** 4:1 **cost** 36:9 68:2,5 69:4 127:2,10,14 128:12 131:7 147:5 148:16 150:18 **cost-effective** 70:8 **costly** 151:9 **costs** 127:4,15 150:6 150:7,9 161:18,19 161:21 ,22 162:11 **Council** 2:12 6:11 **counsel** 145:2,20 146:12 174:15 **count** 16:1 **counting** 68:20 **couple** 12:1 31:22 50:4 56:20 69:19 85:18 98:8 108:3 148:13 162:4 163:4 169:11 170:10,19,19 171:1 177:20 **course** 72:12 90:3 95:19 161:11 **COURT** 13:3 ,7,9

100:17 **cover** 50:14 63:22 66:9 **coverage** 29:21 **covered** 62:2 89:11 104:18 **cow** 26:13 **Crawford** 2:9 6:5 ,5 111:8,9 112:14 **crawling** 128:11 **create** 9:1 14:3 17:11 57:5 102:8 156:4 169:19 **created** 17:2 58:13 74:11 **creating** 136:22 170:10 **credible** 135:15 **credit** 57:9 **crept** 49:7 **criteria** 108:22 111:15 139:19 **critical** 17:1 44:6 45:12 88:1 132:6 137:16 **cross-cutting** 13:12 17:13 18:1 20:12 **cross-share** 156:22 **crossed** 70:21 **crown** 3:21 148:17 **cumulative** 83:15 **curious** 48:15 56:15 162:14 **currency** 96:7 **current** 51:2 52:2 58:20 62:13 83:12 118:8 139:4 142:5 **currently** 24:2 140:13 **curves** 156:5 **cut** 140:11 **cuts** 160:14 **cycle** 62:16,18 68:2 68:5 125:21 126:1 132:10 **cycles** 68:4 72:21 73:1 **Cymbalsky** 2:3 22:4 107:11 **D D**  3:18 5:1 **D.C** 89:4 **dad** 79:18 **Dan** 115:12 145:9Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 183 146:4,14 **Dan's** 146:3 **dandy** 38:7 **Darlington** 2:20 **data** 14:19 15:5 ,9 16:16 33:18 34:3 34:4,12 35:8,9,11 35:20 36:2,4 37:11 ,12 38:2,20 38:21 ,22 39:1 ,5 40:9,11 ,13 ,15 ,20 40:22 41:1 ,11 43:18,19 44:14,17 46:17 47:6 48:18 50:11 52:1 53:15 53:21 60:5 65:14 65:16,21 66:13 ,14 66:18 68:1 69:4,4 75:10 118:5 124:2 124:17 125:6,8,9 125:11 ,12 126:13 127:1 128:12 129:19,22 130:1 ,7 130:10 131:6,12 132:10,16,20 134:19 136:5 ,6,13 147:2,4,5 ,6 148:19,22 149:11 149:11 ,13 ,15 ,21 149:22 151:4,7,18 152:1 ,5 ,11 ,21 153:3 ,4 154:6,7 154:12,13 156:12 156:19 162:11 ,12 162:21 163:11 164:5 ,7 165:2,14 168:20,21 174:19 **data-gathering** 162:9 **data-sharing** 162:4 **database** 127:10 **databases** 127:18 127:19 **date** 53:12 54:4,13 79:16 95:1 **dates** 62:21 **Dave** 2:6 6:1 27:19 **David** 2:14 6:7 23:15 38:18 72:11 171:20 172:11 ,11 **Davidson-Hood** 2:22 **day** 11:17 41:21 101:5 143:19 153:20 159:12 176:14 **days** 16:13 56:2

60:2 162:21 **DC** 1:9 **dead** 171:16 **deadline** 139:6 175:8 **deadlines** 9:1 45:18 105:13 139:5 **deal** 14:8 28:17 32:1 51:22 60:4 73:10 **dealer** 161:20 **dealers** 128:16 150:16 **dealing** 31:20 51:14 110:8 126:6 150:8 150:9 **deals** 56:18 **dealt** 24:12 55:4 59:6 **dear** 69:21 **Deborah** 5:16 33:2 80:21 81:17 82:22 88:20 113:19 114:9 **Deborah's** 8:21 **debundling** 78:17 **decades** 111:10 112:6 **decide** 21:22 73:20 77:18 109:3 174:8 **decided** 21:17 145:3 174:11 **decides** 109:4 **decision** 141:10 **decisionmaking** 141:20 **decisions** 15:14 162:11 **declared** 90:8 **dedicate** 104:20 **deep** 106:16 **deeply** 89:2 **defer** 59:20 **define** 17:12 18:2 111:13 ,14 166:18 167:3 172:5 **defined** 71:1 78:3 87:3 **defining** 71:5 72:13 73:4 **definitely** 63:14 96:5 97:21 98:2,6 128:5 146:12 148:10 149:4 **definition** 74:6 75:15 **definitions** 74:2

**degrade** 39:16,17 40:4 **degree** 92:4 112:8 166:5 **deLaski** 2:10 5:3 ,10 5:10 6:15 ,18 7:1 9:18 10:1 11:15 12:15 13:1 ,5 ,8,10 16:22 17:6,9 20:2 20:7 21:2,9,14 25:16 28:18 29:15 30:5 ,11 31:2,8 32:19 33:10,13 35:6,13 ,22 37:5 41:2,7,13 ,15 42:7 42:14,22 46:19 49:20 50:1 52:15 52:22 53:3 54:7 56:13 ,22 57:3 ,11 57:15 ,18,22 66:8 68:9 69:10,18 70:1 71:8,17 75:13 76:18 77:21 78:2 80:1 ,4,18 81:6 82:12 83:5 88:7,14 91:16 93:16 95:3 ,8,17 99:14 100:7,12 101:2 102:3 103:2 103:11 ,18 104:22 105:21 106:3 107:10 108:2 110:6 111:6 112:20 113:3 114:12,19 115:7 115:10 117:14,21 119:22 121:3 ,15 121:18 122:1 ,8,11 123:14 124:1 128:9 129:7,13 ,18 131:13 132:11 133:4 134:6 136:14 137:11 ,20 139:10,17 140:2,9 142:7 143:4,18 145:13 ,17 146:14 146:17 147:1 150:20 151:2,16 152:18 155:18 157:16 158:12 161:6 162:3 ,20 163:12,18 164:10 164:16 166:1 167:1 168:6,13 ,19 170:4,16 171:5 ,18 172:2 173:4,13 ,17

174:2,7,11 ,14 175:2,8,12,16 176:2,17,22 177:6 177:17 ,22 **Densel** 6:6 **department** 1:1 ,6 2:1 4:2 13:14 17:18,21 18:9,12 19:4,19 25:1 ,9 27:7,8,15 ,15 31:16,20 32:5 ,10 32:16 33:4 38:5 45:16,17 59:13 65:17 74:9 83:13 86:11 100:10 119:14 126:1 139:22 141:9 142:4 157:6 166:7 168:21 169:18 **department's** 9:2 25:4 33:15 ,16 57:21 142:8 **departmental** 116:19 **departure** 120:7 **depending** 40:22 **depends** 19:17 79:15 157:11 169:12 **deployment** 130:19 **derived** 52:2 **describe** 69:19 166:14 **described** 67:6,17 69:18 91:19 **describing** 121:4 **desegregating** 116:15 **deserve** 143:16 **design** 44:9 130:18 **designated** 22:9 **designed** 39:21 **designing** 15:7 152:7 **desire** 84:2 **desired** 50:6 **details** 19:8 **determination** 78:1 89:11 102:6 138:21 139:6,16 141:11 146:6 **determine** 69:14 109:1 133:2,21 **determines** 109:8 125:8 **develop** 40:7,21

93:9 127:9 142:12 153:9 173:10 **developed** 153:4,7 173:19 **developing** 72:13 130:22 135:14 **development** 32:2 165:6 **device** 39:10,17,18 40:2 51:16 **devices** 39:21 **devil's** 46:20 **DFO** 22:7 **dialogue** 134:9 **Diana** 2:16 36:12 **Diane** 6:12 11:17 13:4 14:7 17:1 25:18 30:17 43:6 55:2 67:6 78:10 80:20 94:16 117:21 ,22 132:11 135:20 154:22 161:8 172:10,11 174:2 **Diane's** 33:3 144:5 **difference** 106:22 107:21 168:5 **different** 25:14 27:9 27:12 28:7 30:8 32:4 33:15 34:19 35:20 37:12 40:2 45:1 51:12 52:3 58:2 62:5 72:19 72:20,21 ,21 73:1 73:8,9,11 ,15 ,15 73:16 86:3 92:10 93:22 98:14 103:20 105:12 109:13 114:6 119:10,18 121:5 132:5 135:14 155:12,20 156:6 157:14 158:6 163:4 169:19,20 170:19 **differently** 40:3 50:16 51:6 123:7 **differs** 133:19 **difficult** 15:10,17 19:13 26:1 32:11 40:14,20 66:7 78:19 82:7 117:12 128:17 149:2 **diligence** 84:16,19 **direct** 29:4Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 184 **direction** 24:13 71:11 86:4 154:14 154:16 **directions** 86:3 **directly** 22:21 70:4 **disagree** 44:20 132:14 **disappointed** 108:16 **disappointing** 135:3 **disassembling** 115:11 **discipline** 112:2 **disconnect** 93:17 **disconnected** 93:12 93:17,20,20 **disconnects** 152:10 **discovery** 123:2 **discuss** 31:14 32:20 42:10,20 56:19 57:2 91:2 124:3 144:21 169:6 **discussed** 13:16 21:16 97:3 98:15 102:22 159:14,15 166:3 **discussion** 8:16 13:12,21 14:1 28:19 30:1 32:22 34:21 36:17 42:17 64:5 92:15 110:11 110:12,14,19 115:13 128:7 135:10 138:15 ,18 139:8 142:15 143:8,11 145:4 154:2,6 172:4,19 177:17 **discussions** 60:8 84:12 97:5 ,9 160:13 ,14 **disfunctionality** 49:8 **dishware** 46:10 **dishwasher** 46:10 **disjunct** 29:2 **dispute** 143:4 **disrupt** 67:11 **disservice** 79:13 **distributor** 161:20 **dive** 106:16 **divided** 172:20 **divulge** 150:7 **docket** 37:8 58:7 132:19 **dockets** 82:13 **document** 66:3 ,4 82:14 136:16 **documents** 136:17 **DOE** 2:3 ,4 6:14 10:5 ,6 18:17 19:11 ,12 22:17,22 23:12,17,19 24:11 28:14 29:5 ,7 30:19 44:3 ,16 45:12,22 47:1 52:16 58:10,13 59:1 60:3 ,9 61:5 ,6 62:3 75:15 77:22 80:19 82:12 83:20 84:6 85:7,18,19 85:22 86:1 ,5 ,12 86:20 87:1 88:2,2 88:5 90:14 91:7 91:11 92:7,20 93:10,21 ,21 94:11 95:1 ,4,6,9 96:7 97:14 99:3 ,11 102:11 103:13 105:1 106:4,6,12 107:11 ,16,19 109:1 ,7 110:2 111:1 ,5 113:13 ,13 115:17 120:7 124:15 127:8 132:1 135:5 138:2 138:16,18 141:17 141:19 142:1 144:19,21 145:4 146:2 148:14 149:11 150:11 153:5 156:2,17,18 158:13 159:2 162:8 163:12 165:12,14 175:15 **DOE's** 29:9 62:1 64:16 95:19 105:15 106:21 ,22 107:18 112:15 122:2 147:18 **doing** 14:14 15:6 16:18 24:5 ,8,18 27:14 52:13 61:7 61:20 64:21 72:17 72:18,19 78:14,18 79:13 84:15 ,18 85:2 99:11 ,12 100:13 104:17 107:17 108:14 116:12 120:13 ,14 128:11 130:17 131:1 139:11 146:9,10 154:10

**dollar** 130:10 **dollars** 131:11 **Don** 3:10 110:20 **door** 90:18 92:17 104:21 **double** 155:7 **downstream** 53:17 **draft** 19:2 43:16 44:19 **drafts** 98:4 **draw** 73:14 **drift** 149:8 **drive** 53:20 54:1 137:22 **driven** 72:9 112:7,8 112:9 **driver** 68:5 **drives** 53:16 71:16 89:21 90:1 **driving** 34:18 **drum** 133:13 **dryer** 52:5 **dryers** 32:3 52:4 **due** 57:9 84:16,19 97:12 **duty** 72:20 132:10 **E E**  5:1 ,1 102:1 ,1 **e-mail** 6:21 7:2 8:7 42:4 117:3 **earlier** 8:1 12:6 15:18 43:7 50:11 60:8,13 63:6 65:9 146:8 151:22 156:14 170:22 **early** 21:10 63:3 84:10 99:2 139:10 153:2 176:18 **easier** 33:22 **easy** 77:7 116:15 ,17 117:16 155:22 **Eckman** 2:12 6:10 6:10 34:9,9 42:6 50:9,9 67:18 68:18 69:3 70:21 71:10 72:4 76:21 77:22 78:3 ,9 80:22 98:22 118:16,16 125:2 130:11 132:4,18 134:17 136:9 137:6 164:20,20 173:15 174:3 176:10 177:2,5 **economic** 89:18,20

90:4 **economical** 167:18 **economically** 138:22 **economizer** 37:6 **economizers** 36:17 **Edison** 3:20 **educated** 108:10 112:22 **education** 107:3 108:9 **effect** 56:2 135:22 144:9 **effective** 16:21 82:4 92:17 **effectiveness** 115:22 **effects** 144:10 **efficiencies** 69:6 **efficiency** 13:15 14:22 15:5 ,13 ,14 16:11 27:22 40:4 44:2,5 48:6 49:1 55:8,9,13 67:22 70:9,10,17,19,19 71:14 72:6 73:7 74:20,22 75:4,5 ,5 75:8,10 76:7,16 77:13 89:16,21 167:13 **efficiency's** 16:13 **efficient** 39:12,13 39:16,18 52:6 86:19,20,21 87:2 **efficiently** 39:17 **effort** 10:22 11:8 47:17 66:6 67:2 130:3 ,10 133:9 137:22 159:5 **efforts** 25:13 66:17 129:21 130:9 151:19 152:11 **egg** 155:8 157:22,22 **eight** 54:16 68:20 87:16 174:15 ,19 **either** 49:13 64:1 72:14 75:7 84:22 103:20 118:14 119:5 132:3 138:19 **elaborate** 117:4 **elbows** 126:7 **Electric** 3:20 **Electrical** 2:7 5:20 **element** 66:12,13 71:6 **elements** 33:18

34:11 ,13 119:4 **else's** 159:16 **elusive** 127:1 **emergence** 130:12 **emerging** 130:3 **emphasized** 98:1 **empirical** 133:3 **enable** 174:18 **enacted** 142:21 **encompass** 77:17 **encourage** 34:21 **endeavor** 28:12 **endorse** 161:16 **ends** 116:21 123:17 128:12 **energy** 1:1 ,6 2:1 ,15 3:13 6:9 14:22 16:11 ,13 31:18 32:7 37:11 ,16,18 37:20 38:15 49:1 55:10,14 58:12 64:6 67:22 70:8 70:17 77:16,16,17 78:4 81:8 82:2 106:9 118:10 124:1 126:16,18 127:21 129:22 138:6 141:1 ,13 143:22 144:7,8 145:7 167:10 **enforcement** 26:13 61:5 62:8 **engage** 23:18 85:20 85:21 105:15 133:15 **engaged** 50:20 83:21 84:9,10 89:2 156:15 160:12 **engaging** 65:6 93:7 104:4 160:21 **engineering** 34:12 150:14 162:11 **engineers** 15:20 112:9 155:3 160:2 **enormous** 89:22 90:1 **ensure** 134:11 **ensuring** 102:11 **enterprises** 2:6 118:22 **enthusiasm** 13:17 **entire** 108:13 **entirely** 51:6 **entities** 38:14 114:5Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 185 **entity** 37:13 **EPA** 30:21 81:3 82:18 86:7,12 90:14 92:7 **EPA's** 88:11 **equipment** 36:16,22 51:5 ,10 55:7,16 55:20 56:12 63:8 69:6 77:6 79:7 87:5 110:22 156:8 167:8 **errors** 67:1 119:8 **especially** 15:11 30:7 33:21 39:1 59:2 60:10 62:21 **essence** 139:17 **essential** 147:7 **essentially** 71:17 93:11 173:17 **estimated** 122:19 **estimates** 164:3 **et** 139:1 ,1 165:18,18 165:18 **evaluate** 83:4 **evaluating** 44:6 115:21 **evaluation** 118:18 118:18,19 119:11 120:1 **evaporated** 111:2 **event** 90:6 159:12 **eventually** 71:7 **everybody** 45:1 54:12 64:9 132:21 163:4,16 **evidence** 109:12 **evolve** 123:6 **evolved** 123:7 **exactly** 52:12 148:16,16 **examining** 90:17 **example** 17:20 18:4 32:3 44:9 45:6,15 46:8 63:8 76:1 86:5 95:13 ,14 104:13 134:7 166:11 ,15 **examples** 60:1 96:9 168:20 **excellent** 40:10 **excited** 141:17 **exciting** 26:11 **excluded** 66:5 **excuse** 106:5 **exercise** 51:19 149:16 **exist** 35:3 48:12

61:11 **existing** 47:6 53:11 55:7,16 115:22 **exists** 34:4 **expand** 80:8 **expanded** 63:21 **expect** 11:12 50:20 134:13 **expected** 123:7 **expedition** 133:7 **expense** 56:10 **expensive** 40:15 130:14 131:10 155:8 **experience** 28:6 82:12 96:20 152:22 153:1 ,20 158:1 ,7 164:10 **experienced** 47:19 49:4 85:15 **experiences** 151:18 **expert** 43:16 **expertise** 24:8 **experts** 160:11 **explain** 105:9 107:5 146:15 **explained** 156:2 **explains** 108:16 **explored** 142:1 **extended** 71:2 72:1 72:5 **extensively** 88:3 **extent** 36:3 73:20 80:6 108:2 156:5 157:5 169:10,19 **extra** 120:12 **extraneous** 115:20 **extreme** 49:5 149:8 **eye-opening** 96:19 **eyebrows** 84:18 **F F**  2:7 102:1 **face-to-face** 160:4 **faced** 86:11 **facilitate** 107:7 147:21 ,22 **facilitated** 159:11 **facilities** 156:10 **fact** 130:11 **factor** 35:16 **factors** 50:5 ,7 73:16 **factory** 51:7 153:22 160:1 **fair** 84:5 ,20 96:5 110:15 164:14

**fairly** 84:9 86:1 111:16 124:6 **fall** 22:16,18 30:18 31:15 163:5 **familiar** 126:2 148:13 **fan** 65:11 74:21 75:10 **fans** 10:10 11:4 16:6 71:4 74:10 **fantastic** 172:8 **far** 37:7 64:19 85:13 88:7 129:15 135:7 166:12 **Farrell** 3:10 **farther** 36:13 134:4 161:4 **fast-track** 46:3 **faster** 63:5 111:5 ,5 119:10 **faulty** 129:2 **FCC** 83:19 **feasible** 139:1 **feature** 43:16 **federal** 1:2 22:9 84:22 87:14 **feed** 23:19 24:11 53:14 **feedback** 19:1 ,3 45:16 94:3 ,11 96:5 98:4 120:6 124:22 125:1 126:2,20 131:17 132:3 157:4 158:3 158:10 161:2 162:8 **feel** 32:5 95:7 126:17 133:8 158:20 **feeling** 64:4 **feels** 32:10 **feet** 155:4 **felt** 149:9 **field** 37:20 40:16 124:17 125:11 126:18 129:19 130:10 131:20 **field-tested** 87:4 **Fieldcontrols** 4:1 **figure** 22:14 36:7 45:12 57:4 83:22 87:2 88:3 119:9 125:20 127:8 170:2 172:22 **figured** 96:14 **figures** 40:13

**figuring** 50:18 **filed** 126:13 **fill** 135:15 152:20 **final** 30:11 88:12,15 89:1 165:8 **finalize** 136:16 **finalized** 62:20 **finalizing** 45:19 **find** 16:8 25:1 34:2 38:21 39:4,22 47:13 49:2 50:14 60:16 61:10 84:2 110:4 121:8 **finding** 61:9 64:20 76:6 88:13 ,14 147:8 **fine** 12:15 38:7 126:8 132:2 133:1 175:17 ,22 **finer** 157:9 **finish** 176:18 **finished** 102:4 **finishing** 59:2 63:5 **firms** 128:10 **first** 8:12,17 10:10 10:20 11:13 ,17 17:2 46:18 56:16 61:20 71:12 73:19 74:13 77:2 85:14 92:3 97:18 123:9 140:18 143:14 158:10 161:13 172:18 **fishing** 133:7 **fit** 87:10 **fits** 86:5 87:1 **five** 23:5 ,13 37:10 38:17 42:6,7,17 52:11 56:21 57:12 67:19 68:7,14,16 68:22 106:17 123:8 124:1 167:21 172:6 173:18 174:6,8 **fix** 48:1 ,3 ,8,10 54:18 61:1 ,2 **fixed** 48:10,13 **fixes** 54:12 **fixtures** 75:20,22 **flagged** 8:7 **flip** 154:9 **floor** 8:11 51:7 **flourish** 162:17 **flow** 36:4,6 147:2 **flows** 73:7 **fluorescent** 75:18 75:18,20,22 **flux** 43:20 86:7,12 **fly** 159:22 176:19 **flyers** 155:11 **focal** 111:20 **focus** 48:2 49:17 50:13 53:8 72:5 92:11 116:6 **focused** 51:18 54:3 **focuses** 47:12 **focusing** 93:14 161:21 **folks** 80:14 115:16 141:16 **follow** 92:7 **following** 45:14 **force** 57:5 **forced** 89:18 **fore** 47:14 **forecasted** 53:6 **foreclose** 109:7 **foreseeable** 86:18 **Forgive** 169:5 **form** 8:18 13:21 17:17 21:6,15 66:11 73:16 75:5 103:10,20 153:7 170:18 **formal** 88:20 **formally** 98:7 **formation** 41:18 **formed** 10:7 11:10 25:11 **Forrestal** 1:7 **forth** 32:12 111:4 **forward** 21:5 23:6 23:11 ,14 51:2,14 79:21 85:10 131:8 139:8,9 143:12 164:17 170:10,13 171:16 **foster** 71:21 72:1 **found** 23:10 73:4 **four** 77:8 103:8 111:10 115:12 123:21 172:6 174:8 **four-month** 10:22 **fraction** 89:10 **frame** 43:12 91:21 91:22 99:6 **framework** 47:4 **Franco** 3:11 **Frank** 3:8 **frankly** 149:7Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 186 **free** 151:7 **freedom** 112:3 **friction** 121:8 166:4 166:6 **front** 7:3 50:19 84:1 **frontend** 157:11 ,13 **frontier** 52:4 **fruition** 81:12 **frustrated** 165:12 **frustration** 157:19 **FTC** 81:4,8,9 84:5 ,6 92:13 **fulfill** 13:13 **full** 31:9 72:5 137:1 153:20 **fully** 83:11 143:5 148:7 **fun** 158:19 **function** 29:5 102:15 103:5 169:17 **functionalities** 169:20 **functionality** 169:16 **functioning** 29:9 85:20 105:1 169:18 **fundamental** 152:10,13 **fundamentally** 34:18 **furnace** 65:11 74:21 75:10 77:14 78:6 79:8,8 96:11 148:17 167:11 **furnaces** 10:8,11 14:21 15:11 74:18 79:1 110:9 167:14 **further** 19:21 25:8 32:15 85:5 103:8 114:12,14,22 124:10 137:18 138:15 171:2,3 **future** 15:6 20:1 51:5 55:15 78:21 81:20 86:18 95:22 103:5 116:4,7 117:1 **G G**  2:14 5:1 **game** 110:16 **gamut** 83:8 **GAO** 121:14 122:1 122:6 **gap** 59:7 60:7 97:1

**gaps** 135:12,13 ,15 137:13 **garbled** 117:18 **Gary** 3:16 **gas** 3:18 74:20,22 79:7,8 90:9 167:14 **gather** 66:17 128:12 **gathered** 134:12,14 162:13 **gathering** 151:19 **GE** 159:7 **general** 14:2,2 34:10 39:10 56:10 73:7 96:6 119:5 122:3 146:5 162:9 171:3 **generally** 14:11 39:8 40:3 55:17 159:19 162:21 **generate** 167:15 **generic** 33:8 **gestating** 171:9 **getting** 47:15 51:1 66:14,15 ,21 67:19 70:9 71:5 74:22 91:10 99:10,21 104:15 125:1 129:1 131:7,22 137:8 139:14 142:8 143:3 ,6 150:18 157:4 158:14,20 161:4 161:10 **give** 19:13 44:18 57:9 58:8 65:20 69:11 76:1 83:6 94:11 113:20 119:13 145:2 149:3 154:7 163:9 175:17 **given** 24:7 37:22 83:9,12 96:3 ,3 ,3 134:18 **gives** 48:5 72:2 86:5 139:18 **giving** 153:14 163:7 **glad** 6:20 **glide** 12:8 **global** 86:9,10 **go** 22:13 24:12 42:12 44:7 56:7 59:8,14 65:4 68:10 72:6 90:19 105:5 106:13 111:4 118:13

119:3 133:20 135:2 141:21 145:19 151:16 152:13 156:18 165:2 171:15 175:15 178:2 **goal** 57:1 **goes** 8:17 33:6 48:11 49:4 114:10 129:15 134:18 139:8 156:18 **going** 7:15 8:3 14:16 17:5 ,12,13 19:5 20:22 21:5 22:16 24:14 25:5 29:9,10 33:15 ,22 36:4 37:13 39:13 39:16,17 40:10,12 40:13 ,17 51:1 ,10 51:14 52:12 53:4 54:16 55:6,13 61:21 62:20 63:1 66:16,17 70:18 74:7 75:7,9 76:21 78:16,21 82:3 ,9 83:13 85:18 86:14 86:17 87:6 88:3 ,5 91:20 92:2,3 ,7 94:10 98:19 102:3 102:8,16,16 104:2 106:9 107:4 108:22 109:1 ,5 111:8 113:12 118:3 124:6 126:10 127:21 ,22 131:8 133:5 ,8,12 134:19 136:16 138:1 ,5 ,11 140:13 141:2 143:12 145:22 146:2 150:11 151:4 153:13 154:1 156:22 157:18 158:19 160:1 163:5 168:17 170:2,9,12,17 174:9 **good** 5:13 9:19 10:13 12:5 ,8,11 12:16 13:9 23:2 28:18 37:15 ,18 38:15 39:5 41:12 42:22 45:6 56:3 60:1 63:17 90:6 92:17 100:8,22 110:5 116:19

118:21 122:8 128:22 132:4 133:2 134:6 135:6 135:9,9 138:4 144:14 147:7 160:9 164:19 170:2 175:15 **Google** 131:5 **gotten** 49:12 102:5 **government** 112:11 122:2 123:20 **great** 7:9 31:12,20 40:13 83:19 100:10 101:2 125:9 126:19 129:6 144:16 148:3 158:21 160:7 **greater** 85:13 93:14 124:22 **greatest** 124:17 **Green** 5:17 **greenhouse** 90:9 **Gregory** 3:22 **grid** 81:13 130:12 **Grimm** 118:5 **ground** 11:21 12:1 **group** 8:9 14:3 25:10,11 29:1 ,6 29:13 ,14 89:8 91:2 94:3 97:5 103:10,15 ,20 110:8,14,16 113:1 116:17 123:5 158:2 160:20 161:3 169:6,7 170:12 173:14,22 175:6 **group's** 170:9 **grouped** 99:16 **grouping** 68:21 **groups** 9:22 11:16 28:5 85:20,21 86:4 104:5 173:3 174:21 **growing** 123:15 **growth** 69:7 169:1 **guess** 22:1 35:1 82:18 89:7 92:9 95:2 97:6 104:12 108:3 132:21 ,21 132:22 133:2,11 134:5 ,17 144:17 145:2 147:12 168:6 170:11 ,16 **guidance** 18:9 19:2

19:7 61:8 95:12 95:18 119:14,20 142:8,9 **guide** 25:12 81:8 **guys** 19:21 35:18,18 47:20 58:3 ,8 85:15 89:2 117:17 146:13 156:12 172:3 **H Hainley**  3:16 **half** 57:7 161:18 175:19,20 **Hampton** 84:9 **hamstrung** 44:13 152:11 **hand** 41:8 59:5 75:16 162:16 **handed** 75:16 **handful** 140:10 **handle** 34:1 35:19 126:21 132:1 163:12 175:17 **handled** 17:15 **handles** 29:7 **happen** 53:14 66:17 67:12 90:2 108:17 110:4 148:6 168:17 **happened** 14:14 85:6 105:1 106:16 106:20 114:21 116:13 ,14,16 117:12,13 **happening** 48:19 85:13 87:7 130:7 **happens** 64:10 116:15 154:7 163:5 **happily** 56:19 **happy** 21:7 63:11 65:7 107:5 127:3 127:11 132:2 145:19 171:14,17 **hard** 7:7 31:5 57:16 91:4 117:7 135:16 135:16 142:14,14 151:3 156:3 164:5 **harder** 127:20 **harm** 133:11 162:2 **hats** 27:12 **Hazelbaker** 3:17 **head** 18:18 88:21 **hear** 7:7 26:1 31:5Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 187 34:5 45:22 114:5 114:7 128:22 150:3 157:16 **heard** 7:13 10:15 84:7 90:15 152:18 157:17 ,21 158:21 171:8 172:13 **hearing** 117:8 118:4 173:5 **heart** 69:22 106:13 **heat** 78:5 79:7,9 135:20,21 **heaters** 56:4 **heating** 2:22 3:2,4,6 3:8 167:16 **heel** 59:10 **heels** 49:14 **hell** 121:20 **Hello** 5:16 **help** 9:2 10:16 13:13 20:7 21:4,5 22:14 23:11 24:21 25:1 ,11 27:3 37:21 45:15 52:17 73:18 74:4 79:22 119:13 124:11 126:18 131:21 146:11 147:20,21 147:22 148:4 149:4 166:6 **helpful** 33:18 54:5 99:5 105:11 ,17 142:9 147:17 157:6 163:1 **helping** 24:22 27:8 38:14 141:20 **hesitance** 157:16,17 **Hi** 6:18 53:1 **hidden** 169:14 **hiding** 169:15 **high** 70:18,19 93:1 118:19 **high-level** 87:8 **higher** 34:20 98:18 **highest** 90:15 ,20 **highlight** 110:18 **highlighted** 146:8 **hindrance** 116:22 **hire** 121:6 **historically** 37:15 78:12 **hit** 18:18 41:10 124:2 **holding** 120:12 **Holdings** 3:19 **holy** 26:13 **home** 62:22 134:18

**homes** 40:18 130:2 **homework** 166:22 167:1 **Hon** 2:13 5:21 ,21 28:20,20 30:2,2,6 81:11 ,11 85:17,17 88:13 97:2,2,18 98:12,12 163:3 ,3 163:16,20 173:21 **honestly** 139:21 **hope** 6:18 63:4 107:17 128:21 **hoped** 7:12 **hopefully** 54:22 **hoping** 131:10 **horde** 26:5 **hordes** 26:15 **horizon** 167:9 **host** 110:2 **hot** 86:6 **hour** 57:7 **hours** 12:1 56:20 **House** 90:6 **housing** 169:1 **HSPF** 78:6 **huge** 26:14 29:2 72:16 106:1 ,2,3 160:20 **hundreds** 73:16 **Hungerford** 2:14 6:7,7 23:15 ,15 24:16 26:9,16 27:19,19 28:11 38:18,18 41:5 72:11 ,11 74:5 76:5 **hunt** 36:22 135:2 **hurdle** 55:13 **hurt** 86:22 **HVAC** 2:9 15:19 63:8 78:15 91:21 128:15 151:9 **hydraulic** 71:14 72:6,10**I ICF**  3:15 **idea** 34:16 41:17 74:6 110:5 112:18 122:14 135:6 141:7 147:21 155:21 157:21 158:2 159:11 **ideal** 47:4 48:15 49:11 54:10 59:1 59:12 62:12

**ideally** 17:14 **ideas** 17:19 19:13 22:12 23:2 34:5 63:13 124:20 163:13 **identification** 24:21 135:11 **identified** 170:22 171:1 **identifies** 20:14 99:4 **identify** 20:7 22:20 23:16 28:16 50:1 73:22 99:2 102:13 121:8 124:15 137:12 147:13 160:19 166:9 172:18 173:1 **identifying** 74:6 128:17 166:10 **IEC** 93:7 111:11 **IECC** 33:5 80:21 **IEE** 33:5 **IG** 121:14 122:7 **ignored** 149:11 **illustrate** 39:6 **illustration** 63:17 **imagine** 44:15 73:10 95:8 **imbedded** 68:21 **immune** 163:21 **impact** 31:17,18 33:7 35:14 44:8 59:4 81:14 89:12 89:15 ,18 93:14 94:14,21 117:11 118:18,19 119:12 136:2,4 138:1 141:15 143:22 **impacted** 85:1 **impacts** 82:21 83:4 90:9 145:7 **imperfect** 49:15 106:8 127:6 **implement** 22:14 27:9 **implementation** 119:7 **implemented** 140:5 140:14 **implementing** 27:9 140:6 **implications** 29:8 **implicit** 39:8,11 **important** 16:4,19 27:3 30:10 32:9 41:10 43:4 56:16

67:21 90:5 91:14 92:16 96:5 118:2 118:12,14 135:12 143:15 170:5 **impossible** 43:21 **improve** 38:14 70:8 72:7 116:3 ,4,5 119:4,15 124:1 **improved** 37:11 174:18 **improvement** 45:14 50:21 118:20 120:20,20,21 122:16 123:3 **improvements** 48:16 51:15 65:15 70:17 71:14 122:19 **improving** 50:12 99:18 **inadequate** 51:3 **incentive** 72:8 **incidents** 37:7 50:3 **incline** 63:21 **include** 42:16 **including** 34:15 82:17,18 112:10 170:3 **inclusion** 113:11 **inconsistent** 26:20 **incorporated** 104:8 104:9 **incorporating** 60:9 **incorrectly** 61:20 **increase** 127:15 **increased** 91:8 **incremental** 14:17 **Independence** 1:8 **independent** 30:6 173:9 **indicate** 91:7 **indications** 149:3 **indifferent** 156:20 **individual** 8:6 37:8 91:7 130:16 132:8 174:20 **individually** 78:12 **industrial** 10:10 38:1 ,1 **industry** 29:1 33:19 60:11 ,12,13 64:22 67:4,13 69:5 86:9 87:5 89:18,22 90:2,5 93:9 94:6,9 99:6 104:6 112:7 114:11 127:7

135:5 138:12 148:12 149:9,13 149:19 153:5 ,11 163:6 **industry's** 112:16 **industry-aggrega ...**  156:4 **inefficient** 106:8 **inertia** 67:7,7,11 **inform** 21:4,5 36:5 66:15 ,18 74:4 124:18 126:18 146:11 147:4 **informal** 8:8 88:18 88:19 **informally** 7:16 120:2 **information** 17:22 18:7,19 29:1 34:22 35:3 37:1 66:1 ,5 86:10 125:21 126:18 127:14,16 128:18 128:18 130:13 131:8,22 133:1 ,3 133:19,22 134:2,3 134:12,14 135:1 135:15 137:8,16 147:3 ,4,22 148:5 156:7,22 157:3 163:9 **information-shari ...**  34:6,21 **informative** 145:10 **informing** 141:20 **inhibited** 77:12 **initial** 49:21 **initiate** 60:13 **initiated** 111:1 **initiating** 60:8 **initiative** 115:14 **initiatives** 168:8 **ink** 95:20 **innovate** 78:19 **innovation** 16:2 **input** 6:21 12:3 18:2 18:3 25:1 34:20 68:17 80:15 164:16 **inputs** 161:5 **insights** 130:16 **inspecting** 150:11 **Inspector** 122:3 **install** 76:11 **installation** 76:10Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 188 150:9,16 161:21 **installed** 36:19 150:10,10 **installer** 79:15 **instance** 71:8 75:13 75:14 152:3 **instances** 43:10 67:3 75:17 85:6,7 85:11 120:12 156:3 **Institute** 3:1 ,3 ,5 ,7,9 3:20 **instructions** 66:2 **integrated** 77:5 **intend** 21:12 **intended** 71:20 169:18 **intent** 61:14 **intention** 54:20 **intentional** 49:12 **interaction** 30:19 80:18 134:15 153:17 **interactions** 31:1 80:20 86:2 94:19 **interacts** 83:9 **interagency** 88:15 88:17 **interest** 27:6 74:9 110:11 ,20 114:3 136:22 171:13 **interested** 37:2 108:21 113:22 125:1 126:12 131:18 159:9 **interesting** 96:19 **interests** 27:13 ,17 147:14 **interface** 112:1 **internal** 24:3 121:19 **internally** 23:18 **International** 3:15 6:2 **interpretation** 107:6 145:5 **interpretations** 95:22 96:1 **interrupt** 151:15 **interval** 131:2 **interview** 157:22 158:3 **interviews** 120:14 153:21 155:1 156:18,19 **introductions** 5:4,9 **introspection** 63:18

**invented** 51:4 **invest** 116:11 **investigation** 171:3 **investment** 89:22 90:1 130:6 **involved** 43:17 70:4 91:10 94:9 96:21 97:4,5 104:14 109:16 123:2 150:5 ,17 153:2 161:13 **involvement** 94:14 **involves** 91:9 **ISO** 111:11 **issue** 14:2,11 19:17 23:6,7,20 32:15 35:8 37:6,9 45:3 46:9,15 67:18 75:12 77:2 81:12 83:14 88:8 89:13 90:2,11 ,21 92:12 97:3 99:15 103:12 104:18 112:2 129:19 133:18 135:17 ,18 138:19 138:21 140:20 148:10 151:2 152:13 160:18 162:4 166:2 169:15 ,16 171:17 **issued** 43:11 **issues** 17:13 18:1 ,20 19:5 ,7,18 20:22 23:16 24:7 28:16 31:22 34:17 36:10 41:11 44:22 45:3 46:5 47:13 49:2,3 51:22 53:12,17 54:2 55:1 ,3 ,5 59:18 62:7 65:5 67:15 69:16 73:6 75:2 82:5 84:7 86:11 87:10,11 ,12 92:13 94:4 97:19 142:18 144:3 ,3 149:18 151:22 154:21 162:12 170:20 172:16 **issuing** 45:20 **item** 8:17 13:10 17:2 31:3 ,13 35:7 35:7 38:16 42:15 42:16,17 68:19 99:16 102:6,7 103:6,8 114:18,22 115:6,11 ,12

118:14 123:21 124:1 136:14 137:18,20 143:20 146:18,19 174:11 **items** 8:14 30:15 31:6,11 42:5 57:10 114:13 143:19,19 162:5 170:22 174:5 **iteration** 94:5 105:6 108:18 109:16 113:12 **iterative** 153:6,17 **IU** 37:17 **J J**  2:5 3:20,22 **Jakobs** 2:16 6:12,12 14:7,7 17:4,8 25:18,18 26:8,10 26:17 30:17,17 36:12,12 55:3 65:11 78:10 94:16 94:16 95:5 99:20 106:2 117:22,22 132:12 135:20 154:22 155:21 159:10,18,21 166:20 167:7 168:12,14 169:2 170:14 175:10,13 176:5 177:9,12 **January** 136:1 **Jen** 6:17,18 31:4 34:17 43:1 47:8 49:3 65:7 90:22 117:2,4 118:15 126:10,11 139:3 144:14 145:14 150:20 172:15 173:13 175:20 **Jen's** 7:7 54:11 62:22 117:2 143:20 **Jennifer** 42:4 80:14 **Jennifer's** 138:3 **Jeremiah** 7:20 128:21 **jewels** 148:18 **Jim** 2:9 6:5 111:7,9 114:10 169:3 **Joanna** 3:14 **job** 14:8 26:9 31:20 166:7 **John** 2:3 ,7,17 3:19 5:13 ,19 7:10,16 7:22 9:18 22:1 ,3 22:13 23:9 25:8 41:7 48:20 52:18 56:13 ,14 59:9 62:15 63:16 68:12 69:17,18 74:15 89:9 92:1 104:11 105:8 107:11 113:15 114:13 ,16 115:2,3 122:13 126:22 140:16 147:1 148:9 150:1 151:2 153:19 155:18 157:21 161:16 165:9 171:11 ,12,18 172:11 175:5 **John's** 22:13 66:9 **join** 6:20 171:18 172:10 173:13 **joining** 67:18 173:21 **judgment** 135:7 **jump** 53:1 **June** 175:8 176:2 **Justice** 4:2 **justified** 138:22 149:12 **justify** 149:16 **K Karen**  11:18 **keep** 22:19 33:7 41:22 57:19 59:18 69:13 114:22 118:4 139:2,7 **keeps** 167:9 **Kelley** 80:14,16 126:11 134:7 137:12 150:20 151:1 ,13 152:19 161:7 174:1 ,2 175:20 **Kelly** 52:22 **kept** 67:1 172:16 173:6 **key** 33:18 **keying** 94:5 139:3 **kick** 7:10 10:21 11:7 62:19 63:1 ,1 63:2,14 **kicking** 63:4,14 **kicks** 106:12 **kind** 11:9 14:15 17:16 18:13 25:19 26:11 37:12 46:3

46:5 47:3 ,16 52:8 52:17 53:13 ,17,19 53:21 54:1 ,2 55:1 55:17 56:3 ,6 66:18,21 72:7 76:2 78:17 84:18 89:6,8 105:14,19 106:21 108:9 119:10 120:18 125:6 126:17 127:22 128:6 130:7 131:3 ,20 133:6,10 134:4,10 134:15 135:11 139:3 143:7,12,13 146:6 149:8 151:20 152:5 ,10 152:12,13 157:21 158:2,9 160:17 ,19 161:1 168:2 169:3 170:1 175:3 **kindly** 52:18 **kinds** 29:22 37:20 39:12 40:16 47:21 76:8 125:18,21 130:9 **Kinetics** 3:13 **Kline** 53:1 ,4 80:16 133:16 135:8 150:22 151:13 ,17 157:20 159:6 160:8 174:1 ,1 176:1 **knew** 67:2 **knock** 50:7 **know** 7:22 10:14,17 11:11 12:19 14:3 14:13 ,18 16:1 ,1 ,9 17:19 19:19,22 20:16,18 21:15 ,17 22:3 ,17 23:9,11 25:12,14 26:2,6 26:12,18,19 27:14 29:16,17 30:18 32:9 34:3 ,15 ,17 36:14,16,19,20,21 37:3 ,11 ,14,19,22 38:3 ,11 39:19 41:16,21 43:6,9 43:17,19 44:5 ,7,8 44:21 ,22 45:11 ,13 46:2,21 ,21 47:7 47:17,18,20,22 48:13 50:7 52:12 53:10,18 54:3 ,13Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 189 54:15 55:12,14,19 55:22 56:1 ,5 59:6 59:9,10 60:7,7,14 61:5 ,13 62:1 ,10 62:20 63:12 64:6 64:7,17 65:4,4,11 65:21 66:10,13 ,15 66:16 67:8,10 69:5 ,14 70:21 74:17,18,21 75:14 75:17 77:17 78:9 78:15 ,18 79:2,10 79:11 ,14,14,16,18 79:19 82:2,13 ,16 83:6 84:1 ,7,22 85:7,15 86:2 88:5 88:8,9 89:1 ,6 91:12 92:6,19 93:1 94:6,9 95:9 95:13 ,16 96:16,22 97:13 ,20,22 98:2 99:17 100:4 102:19 104:5 ,13 105:3 ,6,9 107:13 107:15 ,18 108:5 108:11 109:1 ,13 109:21 ,22 110:21 111:4 114:1 ,4,21 116:5 ,8,14 118:6 119:6 120:1 ,4,9 120:14,17,17 121:4,11 122:6,18 123:1 ,7 124:12 125:4,13 ,22 127:6 127:7,20 128:10 128:11 ,12 129:20 130:1 131:6 132:16,20 133:7 133:11 ,13 ,19 134:4,7,11 ,22 135:13 ,17,19 136:15 ,22 137:4 138:7,12 139:2,4 139:13 140:17 ,17 140:18 141:4,12 141:13 142:4,11 142:14 143:7,9 144:13 ,19,20 145:2,9,9,21 146:2 148:16 149:2,4,19 150:6 151:4,12,17 152:2 152:8 153:4,16 154:7,10 155:11 155:13 156:6,11 156:17 157:11 ,22 158:5 ,5 ,7,18,20

158:22 159:22,22 160:5 ,15 161:1 ,12 161:14 164:2 165:3 166:8,8,14 166:17 167:2,19 168:9,15 169:1 ,11 169:20 172:4 176:8 177:18,20 **knowing** 54:21 86:14,16 **knowledge** 38:15 **known** 60:4 **knows** 54:17 **L lab**  15:4 44:22 45:4 79:6 **label** 81:8 **labeling** 84:8 **laboratories** 112:11 **Laboratory** 3:11 ,12 **laboring** 107:4 **lack** 39:1 40:22 53:21 93:22 94:18 105:18 **lacking** 93:6 166:18 **laid** 107:13 **lamp** 75:18,20,22 **lanes** 152:6 **language** 106:19 142:19 **large** 99:21 155:6 **largely** 71:1 **larger** 19:6 46:15 104:7 **lat** 52:11 **late** 53:1 95:2,3 125:10 **latest** 61:4 **Lau** 2:21 **Laughter** 26:7 69:9 78:8 100:6 103:22 112:13 142:22 145:18 165:22 172:1 175:1 176:21 177:16 **laundry** 77:6 98:11 **Lawrence** 3:11 ,12 **lawsuits** 119:6 **lawyers** 107:4 **layered** 63:22 **LBL** 131:1 **lead** 14:4 108:14 172:14 **leading** 8:2 **leaning** 140:18

**learn** 116:2,3 ,6 123:18 **learned** 116:5 158:17 **learning** 79:20 **leave** 74:7 154:15 **leaves** 88:5 **led** 50:5 119:6 **left** 51:7 86:10 **legal** 21:1 80:10 94:12 95:10,19 97:19 107:22 138:2 142:4 **legally** 23:11 65:3 **Lekov** 3:12 **Lenox** 6:2 **lesser** 138:9,11 **lessons** 158:16 **let's** 5:3 7:15 10:5 14:1 18:16 32:21 68:9,10 80:13 96:15 ,18 102:17 103:7 114:19,22 120:8 121:8 143:18 149:20,22 170:4,8 175:2 **letters** 98:7,8 **letting** 79:13 **level** 23:18 24:8 34:7,20 82:8 85:12 87:22 98:18 127:5 128:2 138:9 **levels** 44:5 90:16,20 152:2 **leverage** 130:8 **leveraged** 118:4 **liberty** 61:16 **life** 68:2,5 121:20 125:22 156:9 167:8,8 **lifetime** 168:1 ,7 169:1 **lift** 119:10 **light** 61:4 66:9 76:9 140:17 **lighting** 70:5 ,16 76:9 77:8 **likes** 59:9 **limit** 57:6 119:8 **limitation** 79:3 **limitations** 94:11 ,13 95:19 149:6 **limited** 24:14 83:17 116:20 **limiting** 150:12 **limits** 24:3 ,4,5 80:9

**line** 152:4 160:3 ,12 **linear** 99:12 **list** 7:3 8:8,9,10,12 17:2 20:22 30:13 30:16 31:6,7,9,10 31:13 32:20,21 33:1 ,11 41:3 ,4,5 41:13 ,20 42:13 56:21 58:3 ,3 76:22 91:15 98:11 99:1 124:5 125:4 141:4,5 143:15 155:10 161:1 162:19 174:4 **lists** 8:14 **little** 7:7,9,11 ,21 8:13 9:10 23:4,12 27:17 31:5 33:8 33:22 49:7 50:10 57:2 58:1 60:15 63:11 70:13 ,22 73:18 92:9 109:10 110:19 117:7,18 120:7 129:5 ,10,14 144:19 145:9 151:22 152:12 158:19 161:3 **live** 46:22 48:14 **lives** 167:20 **living** 67:1 **loadings** 72:21 **local** 87:12,15 ,16,17 87:18 **location** 160:3 **locked** 47:2,5 ,7 165:16 **logic** 51:11 **long** 87:4 120:5 ,8 125:6,7 140:4 167:20 **long-term-type** 124:11 **longer** 46:11 **longitudinal** 130:5 **look** 12:15 18:22 33:8 39:3 53:10 58:6 74:14 76:3 77:11 78:16 82:6 83:7,15 92:11 98:22 111:22 115:21 116:2 117:15 120:18 121:7,11 122:7 124:8 128:6 134:19 136:11 175:2

**look-back** 58:13 111:7 **lookback** 66:20 107:21 115:19 138:18 140:5 **lookbacks** 116:9 124:10 139:11 **looked** 66:22 78:14 82:20 98:2 152:4 155:10 **looking** 11:1 14:12 19:10 24:16 33:4 36:22 63:7 70:11 78:20 79:19 81:21 99:1 102:14 111:19 115:19 117:10 122:17 133:6 136:5 ,6 154:5 **looks** 73:5 110:21 133:10 136:10 **loop** 157:4 **loophole** 61:10,13 **loopholes** 16:7,7 61:9,10 **loops** 96:5 **Lord** 96:14 **lose** 40:4 **lost** 23:14 30:8 **lot** 14:11 15:1 ,9 22:20 25:21 30:3 30:6 36:17 39:15 43:10,17 51:15 53:16,20 56:8 58:10 60:2 63:7 66:6 70:16 89:4 98:4 106:20 110:16 112:2 118:9 127:13 130:13 134:9 142:18 143:14,16 148:5 157:7,7 162:1 163:10 164:5 ,15 165:6 167:13 177:19 **lots** 52:1 ,5 102:15 111:14 121:21 **Lotus** 118:6 **louder** 7:9 **loudly** 12:20 **love** 143:16 **lower** 109:10 123:13 123:16,17 **lump** 103:20 **lumping** 173:6Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 190 **lunch** 100:21 117:18 **lurch** 88:6 **Lusk** 169:4 **M M**  2:16,17 **magic** 107:14 **Maheshwary** 4:2 **main** 23:8 129:11 **maintained** 36:18 **maintenance** 113:8 **major** 28:2,3 29:8 37:18 46:4 59:3 61:13 65:9,9 81:14 86:7 130:5 **majority** 40:1 **majors** 163:8,10 **making** 12:6 73:6 135:19 **manage** 49:8 144:12 **manager** 22:4 **manages** 88:15 **mandate** 110:14 **mandatory** 15:22 **Mandyck** 2:17 5:13 5:14 9:19 41:9 42:12 48:20,20 62:14,15 63:16,16 74:15 ,15 89:9,9 92:1 ,1 103:9,16 104:11 ,12 113:15 113:15 114:16,16 126:22,22 127:5 148:9,9 153:19,19 165:8,9 175:5 ,5 176:8 **manifold** 155:8 **manufacturer** 28:3 43:22 86:16 136:2 148:18 152:20 161:20,22 162:11 163:13 167:19 **manufacturers** 2:7 3:10 5:20 28:3 29:20 36:1 ,15 37:2,12 44:2 71:9 73:10 84:4 86:15 87:13 90:7 113:4 134:10,13 136:5 138:7 144:11 147:8,9 150:6,13 158:14 159:3 162:6 165:7,12,14 171:3 174:16,20 **manufacturers'**

53:18 **manufactures** 147:5 **manufacturing** 2:13 2:16 5:21 6:13 70:20 72:19 96:21 136:4 174:19 **map** 92:18 **march** 107:8 **margin** 148:16 **margins** 164:13 **mark** 92:6 95:6 **market** 34:12 36:2 36:3 44:7 69:4 71:22 72:4 111:21 128:1 132:9 144:11 168:1 **markets** 36:9 **markup** 161:20,21 **Marran** 3:13 **massive** 82:6 **materials** 26:18 150:18 **matter** 61:11 63:19 149:21 **Mauer** 3:14 **maximum** 75:1 **Maxtech** 149:16 **McCabe** 2:5 6:3 ,3 120:19,19 161:16 **McCarthy** 90:11 **mean** 15:12 19:12 25:22 26:10 27:21 34:15 48:21 56:19 64:21 70:2 81:17 81:21 ,22 82:3 85:21 88:8 95:3 96:12,18 97:12,21 104:1 ,7 107:13 109:16 110:3 120:3 132:7 143:10 149:1 150:13 151:15 154:14 155:12 156:8 159:7,13 ,19 167:9,13 169:8 171:12 **meaning** 86:1 108:9 109:14 **meaningful** 122:21 123:9 **means** 8:9 55:12 102:17 155:7 156:5 **meant** 24:22 165:3 **measure** 39:6 **measured** 31:18 32:7 44:10 143:22 145:7 **measures** 59:4,21 61:18 **mechanism** 14:5 29:21 54:12,19 56:6 79:4 126:20 **mechanisms** 7:22 8:4 20:8 29:16 107:19 130:2 **Medepalli** 3:15 **meet** 27:16 40:8 45:17 74:19,19 87:14,15 108:21 138:3 139:4 175:20 **meeting** 1:1 ,3 2:1 5:8 7:5 ,11 ,14,19 8:8,21 9:6 10:10 10:12,15 ,17,20,21 11:4,6,17,20 12:16 13:11 52:16 81:7 90:17 100:5 101:4 115:1 146:15 154:15 160:4 170:7 171:10 172:8 173:2 175:4 177:18 178:4 **meetings** 9:5 ,7,11 9:12 11:13 12:9 36:14 112:5 120:12 170:8 177:19 **meets** 112:4,15 ,16 112:17 **member** 5:22 6:8,10 11:2 20:4,18 **members** 5:6 6:16 7:2 32:14 44:15 97:10 160:22 171:13 **memo** 24:11 **memorialize** 21:16 **memory** 154:19 **mention** 83:2 **mentioned** 44:12 50:11 65:1 92:13 92:14 94:19 107:20 131:13 **met** 55:13 ,14 139:19 **metering** 130:19 131:3 **method** 45:8 47:2,6 47:14 48:5 65:13 66:15 67:22 99:15 144:5 ,9,13 **methodologies** 82:11 **methods** 36:11 47:18 64:22 66:21 67:3 99:19 128:5 166:5 173:19 **metric** 68:5 75:5 ,9 77:13 80:8,11 95:14 144:6 **metrics** 74:1 **Meyers** 11:18 **Michael** 2:5 6:3 120:19 **microphone** 129:2,6 **microscope** 119:12 **mid-June** 175:7 **middle** 140:20 **Miller** 5:16,16 33:2 33:2 42:11 81:1 81:17 82:19 84:15 95:15 97:11 100:3 113:19 114:9 139:20 140:8 171:21 **million** 131:11 **mind** 8:20 17:20 18:21 27:14 36:1 42:1 47:12 50:13 53:8 59:18 100:18 126:9 131:14 139:2,8 169:21 **mind-bending** 73:2 **minds** 51:18 171:9 **mini-project-plan** 23:13 **minimize** 61:11 **minimum** 55:8 89:21 **minor** 120:5 **minute** 100:19 **minutes** 7:19 12:11 12:13 ,17 17:7 57:7,12 69:12 170:6 **miscellaneous** 10:9 10:19 **Mislak** 3:2 **missed** 125:13 **missing** 126:4 162:1 **mission** 79:16 **misunderstood** 64:2 **mode** 49:5 74:20 75:10 **model** 118:5 169:16

169:17 ,19 **modeling** 123:3 **models** 45:7 56:9 149:5 **modification** 29:7 **modifications** 9:15 **modifying** 29:3 **mold** 87:11 **momentum** 48:10 **Monday** 7:4 10:20 176:3 **money** 66:16 70:18 **month** 175:19,20 **months** 26:2,2 **morning** 5:13 11:22 143:20 146:19 170:18 **motor** 71:3 72:8 **motors** 70:6 71:15 **mouth** 84:17 146:3 **move** 23:6,11 ,14 28:15 41:4 45:18 46:13 57:8,13 62:12 75:3 ,7 85:10 99:8 103:7 128:1 139:8 171:16 **movement** 71:22 **moving** 12:2 46:16 57:19 68:15 71:10 74:9 79:21 89:6 89:10 140:1 154:14,16 167:9 **multi-million** 130:9 **multi-year** 121:22 130:10 **multiple** 25:6 **multiply** 72:14 **Murphy** 3:18 **mysterious** 168:2 169:3 **N N**  5:1 102:1 ,1 ,1 **nail** 18:18 **name** 43:7 112:12 **narrow** 103:12,15 161:3 **NASEO** 5:18 **national** 2:7 3:11 ,12 5:20 38:8 97:4 127:9 **naturally** 68:14 **nature** 130:5 **Navigant** 2:18,19Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 191 2:20,21 **NDA** 163:14 **near** 69:21 **near-term** 124:13 **nearly** 40:1 **neat** 125:22 **necessarily** 14:13 28:14 34:3 37:1 37:13 39:20 40:13 62:7 86:4 92:21 94:1 ,3 98:10 106:4 111:4 112:15 ,16 114:8 120:10 152:7 160:2 **necessary** 46:7 130:20 **need** 8:22 12:20 15:4 16:14,14,15 16:17 20:8 21:8 23:5 29:12,16 32:20 36:6 41:20 43:14 51:19 52:2 53:8,12 60:12 61:14 63:17 64:12 66:16 67:11 69:14 69:15 70:11 71:6 90:14 99:7 102:19 103:2,4 108:9,10 108:19 112:21 114:12,18,21 116:6 124:17 125:7 137:12 147:2 155:7 160:5 164:3 166:10 172:7 173:6 **needed** 43:19 58:17 58:20 67:12 99:5 103:14 144:13 **needing** 99:21 **needs** 46:11 50:11 51:17 53:14 54:1 59:7 61:12 91:8 97:3 102:21 103:13 105:4 112:15 ,16,17 125:12 126:3 ,4 138:12 173:1 **negotiated** 119:2 122:22 148:3 154:11 157:14 164:22 **negotiating** 10:7 **negotiation** 70:22 110:7 **negotiations** 119:3 153:2

**NEMA** 2:8 5:20 **never** 40:10,12 59:12,12 66:21 97:7,14 98:13 139:22 152:20 177:14 **new** 10:7 14:8,15 15:21 18:20 19:4 29:10 34:19 37:16 37:17,18 62:5 75:8 76:11 81:19 81:21 ,22 87:10 89:21 ,22 120:8 128:10,13 130:15 134:20 **newly** 60:17 **news** 90:6 **nice-to-have** 137:15 **nichey** 132:8 **Nicholas** 3:2 **nine** 26:2 **nitpick** 49:3 **nod** 88:21 **nonefficient** 81:16 **noon** 100:21 **NOPR** 14:21 ,22 16:12,13 107:16 139:6 **NOPRs** 168:2 **normal** 123:20 **normally** 15:10 **northwest** 2:12 6:11 37:17 129:21 134:9 **nos** 12:21 13:1 **note** 38:9 113:16 129:18 164:21 **noted** 154:10 **notes** 173:8 **notice** 138:19,21 **noting** 53:7 **notion** 54:11 102:8 137:21 158:14 **novice** 91:18 **number** 13:16 30:18 36:10 37:10 38:16 40:9,9 42:5 42:15 ,17 55:18,21 56:11 68:4,20 69:11 72:14 77:15 102:5 ,7 103:8,21 104:9 109:4 116:13 124:20 132:19,22 143:2 146:10 168:4 173:6 177:18

**numbers** 72:22 155:10 164:11 **numerous** 158:15 **nutshell** 70:3 **O O**  5:1 102:1 ,1 ,1 **objection** 12:17 176:22 **objections** 13:2,6,6 **obligation** 27:16 107:16 109:7 **obligations** 106:21 107:1 138:3 **observation** 40:16 111:9 **observed** 47:10 **observing** 40:18 **obvious** 89:15 **obviously** 27:17 34:6 59:14 61:1 65:14 84:11 93:4 124:12 126:15 148:2,12 156:21 **occurred** 18:11 **occurs** 108:8 110:7 **off-grid** 82:2 **off-mode** 59:11 **offer** 50:12 153:18 **offered** 107:9 **offering** 55:20 **office** 122:2 153:22 **officer** 22:10 **official** 22:7 **offline** 89:3 114:17 **offramp** 139:18 **oh** 17:8 47:20 56:8 87:6 94:22 155:5 168:15 175:13 **Oilheat** 3:10 **okay** 7:5 10:1 13:3 ,7 21:2 22:8 28:18 31:2,12 32:19 33:10 43:3 57:14 58:2 69:2,10 70:1 78:2 80:1 ,4,13 89:15 103:18 107:10 113:18 115:2,9 117:17 121:15 ,18 122:10 123:14,21 149:14 172:9,12 175:13 175:13 176:7,9,16 **old** 87:11 157:22 **OMB** 88:12,15 89:1 **on-site** 153:20

**once** 58:15 123:11 143:8 144:9 161:13 **one's** 47:20,21 139:12 **one-on-one** 120:15 **ones** 49:4 52:2 77:1 90:3 111:20 113:7 113:8,11 123:1 124:12,13 126:9 126:10,12 132:6 154:19,20 169:13 **ongoing** 89:13 92:3 103:3 ,5 129:21 **open** 8:10,16 14:1 63:5 ,10,13 65:9 75:16 90:18 92:5 103:16 120:11 128:7 132:14,19 137:13 138:14 142:8 157:5 159:2 164:4 170:11 171:7 **open-ended** 34:15 **opens** 84:11 **operates** 39:10 51:6 **operating** 40:18 **opinion** 19:4 24:15 24:19 25:15 85:12 92:21 93:15 106:22 107:3 ,21 124:16 **opinions** 132:6 **opportunities** 70:8 76:4 80:8,11 95:10 122:15 123:3 140:7 148:6 **opportunity** 58:6 130:8 132:15 144:21 153:3 165:10,11 **opposed** 72:9 125:16 **opposition** 29:4 **option** 79:14 **options** 44:9 50:17 77:3 ,11 98:6 100:20 152:3 **order** 23:6 28:17 42:9 74:13 76:10 99:8 108:20 124:21 **organization** 30:22 31:1 37:14 **organizational** 24:3 24:4

**organizations** 28:3 28:8 65:7 80:22 136:6,19 173:20 **organized** 76:14 **originally** 124:4 **ought** 112:18 132:18 **outcome** 39:3 ,4 100:5 108:15 ,15 108:20 119:5 ,6 138:11 149:21 157:9 **outcomes** 40:8 50:5 142:21 **outline** 17:22 **output** 20:15 21:11 21:14 30:12 **outputs** 122:3 **outset** 65:2 **outside** 14:12 22:19 32:2 94:12 113:4 121:6,10 144:1 ,1 145:7 161:19 **outstanding** 53:12 **overall** 148:1 **overcome** 32:18 **overenthusiastic** 81:20 **overhaul** 59:3 120:4 **overhauled** 62:4 **overlap** 42:3 ,8,18 80:5 **overly** 141:17 **P P**  5:1 **p.m** 101:4,5 102:2 178:4 **pace** 33:22 **packing** 170:1 **pages** 16:17 **painful** 158:18,20 **Pan** 78:4 **paper** 20:13 ,20 94:20 169:3 **parallel** 16:10 99:12 **parameters** 125:22 **pare** 141:5 **parking** 22:19 **parse** 109:15 ,15 **part** 24:22 46:18 48:2 50:18 67:19 70:5 78:5 79:16 84:9 87:1 99:10 110:8,13 115:12Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 192 117:9 119:20 128:14 130:6 132:12 133:17 135:4 150:7 173:7 174:7 **partial** 36:22 164:6 **PARTICIPANT** 127:13 129:10,15 143:2 171:4 176:14 **participants** 5:6 90:13 **participate** 108:4 **participated** 25:21 97:22 98:3 **participating** 5:8 136:1 **participation** 108:6 108:7 **particular** 8:20 20:11 45:5 76:12 91:18 103:12 107:17 126:11 141:2 143:22 152:3 161:2,10 171:8 **particularly** 31:19 43:21 51:1 70:6 118:17 126:12 128:15 165:5 **parties** 106:11 110:17 126:2 131:18 132:5 150:5 165:1 **parties'** 34:1 **partnership** 33:20 **parts** 84:2 **pass** 175:15 **passed** 25:8 58:12 93:10 **path** 12:8 134:5 137:16 161:5 171:16 **pathway** 141:22 **pathways** 71:18 **pattern** 130:21 **patting** 95:21 **Paul** 3:21 **Pause** 140:15 143:17 **pay** 133:14 **people** 9:7,14 12:20 15:19 16:4,6,8 26:5 ,14 28:2 29:18 30:15 36:15 40:17 41:17 42:9 48:15 50:4 60:17

61:7,7,9 68:11 79:6,13 85:4 93:21 94:20 96:8 96:16 98:18 102:20 104:14 105:22 106:1 ,12 107:15 108:6,13 108:16,20,22 112:21 ,22 113:4,9 114:2 117:8 128:21 130:22 132:14 133:8,8,15 134:20 149:8 150:16 151:8 159:12,13 ,22 160:19 161:7 164:4 170:1 172:12 177:9,20 **people's** 40:18,19 154:19 **perceived** 145:6 **percent** 15:12 70:9 79:1 167:12 169:13 **perennially** 158:8 **perfect** 48:22 49:1 112:18 **perfectly** 133:1 **perform** 39:21 40:1 40:3 **performance** 48:7 111:14 **period** 89:20 **permission** 163:7 **person** 6:20 12:21 20:4 26:5 55:11 100:10 175:16 **person-days** 151:11 **personal** 24:15 ,19 93:15 **personally** 123:13 **perspective** 27:4 33:16,16 34:1 35:12 53:18 56:17 57:21 62:2 64:16 74:4 147:18 **perspectives** 28:7 **PGW** 3:22 **phase** 52:13 56:6 88:17,19,20 165:6 **phone** 6:16 80:14 128:21 129:5 177:20 **phrasing** 154:4 **physically** 125:10 **physics** 63:19 64:3

**pick** 41:22 53:11 **picking** 50:10 **piece** 46:17 56:11 77:6 135:17 **pieces** 16:16 61:17 68:3 71:2 77:19 163:5 **pike** 58:5 91:21 105:14 156:17 **pin** 56:11 **pitchforks** 26:16,17 **place** 16:15 ,18 61:21 79:18 91:12 114:18 130:2 **placeholder** 143:12 **places** 115:19 131:4 **placing** 90:4 **plan** 23:4 74:4 **play** 38:14 76:7 102:10 **please** 92:11 151:16 151:16 175:11 **plenty** 164:11 165:19 **podium** 27:1 **point** 17:1 25:22 26:3 33:21 41:10 43:22 49:7,12 51:5 63:3 73:13 104:15 106:4,7 107:12 111:20 112:20 118:21 127:1 134:3 ,6 136:20 138:17 139:16 140:3 143:5 ,21 144:5 145:12 149:13 ,20 152:18 159:10 **points** 21:21 43:8 89:14 92:16 121:8 121:9 136:22 166:6 **policy** 162:1 **pool** 72:17 161:8 **pop** 64:22 **popping** 86:10 **population** 72:22 **portion** 78:20 **portions** 44:20 **position** 44:14,16 79:19 98:5 108:1 **positive** 154:14,16 **possible** 38:1 56:3 73:8 79:14 81:13 84:19 169:9 **potential** 20:15 25:6

31:13 46:2 116:10 117:1 131:14 147:20 **potentially** 19:9 42:19 54:21 116:18 **power** 2:12 6:11 38:12 **PPSP** 164:12 **practical** 44:21 **practically** 45:4 **precisely** 134:10 **predetermined** 149:22 **preference** 42:9 **preparation** 16:5 **prepared** 41:21 **present** 145:4 **presentation** 106:17 115:13 ,15 **presented** 28:13 52:19 **presidential** 115:13 **pressure** 60:2 **presume** 120:2 **pretty** 14:17 18:17 19:20 21:3 22:2 31:19 37:7 63:3 73:3 75:16 83:19 84:6,13 ,14 93:1 ,4 96:9,18 128:22 132:8 135:6,7 136:9 139:21 140:11 145:21 164:12 **previous** 118:4 **price** 127:19 **prices** 128:17 **pricing** 128:3 **primarily** 111:15 **primary** 104:6 **printed** 7:1 51:11 **prior** 80:5 102:22 125:16 156:9 **priorities** 137:10 **prioritize** 8:22 123:17 131:21 **priority** 43:5 118:19 123:13 143:10 **private** 30:7 99:11 127:7 **probably** 10:2 25:20 29:21 38:13 41:20 55:9,21 65:15 68:8 88:18 88:21 133:19

161:18 166:13 **problem** 18:6 29:6 38:20 47:16,22,22 61:1 68:6 87:8 97:12 99:20 128:14 151:3 177:21 **problematic** 44:1 **problems** 24:21 25:5 47:14,21 48:7,12 54:21 74:6 **procedure** 14:21 16:12,14,16 23:22 31:17 32:4 34:16 39:9,13 ,20,22 43:16,20 44:8,19 45:5 ,20 46:5 ,10 49:6 50:14,19 51:2,21 52:14 53:11 ,19 54:2 55:4,6 56:7 59:11 60:20 61:15 67:22 68:1 ,3 77:12 78:4 79:3 84:8 96:11 124:18 126:10 132:10 143:21 145:7 146:9 152:14 172:16 **procedure's** 51:13 **procedures** 14:10 14:12 16:8 22:17 31:17 35:15 43:10 49:13 ,14 50:22 51:19 53:7 55:18 56:1 ,18 58:11 ,15 58:17 59:2,2 60:9 62:3 67:20 93:7,9 94:6 96:8 99:2,4 100:11 104:7,8,9 111:15 125:20 126:3 ,15 131:19 151:21 **proceeding** 47:12 47:15 48:2 **process** 7:22 9:20 15:10 18:21 ,22 19:4,7 21:20,22 23:17,19 24:12 28:19 30:10,12 32:2,11 34:11 40:7 45:19 46:4 46:14 51:21 53:15 54:6 60:13 63:2 63:10 65:6 66:22Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 193 84:3 ,10 88:21 89:1 90:17 92:3 94:7 95:4,6 99:8 105:5 ,6,10,15 106:8 107:8 111:3 112:22 118:18,20 119:4,9,11 ,19,22 120:4,6,8,10,19 120:20,20 121:11 121:22 122:15 ,20 122:22 123:19 124:11 125:14 126:1 ,1 130:15 134:18 139:11 148:1 150:17 153:6,17 158:3 ,15 162:1 ,9 164:17 174:17 ,19 **process-related** 19:18 **process-type** 18:20 **processed** 98:17 **processes** 16:15 27:10,10 72:20 91:12 94:12 98:14 119:15 ,21 122:5 123:20 **processing** 99:12 141:21 **produce** 20:19 52:16 **produces** 20:13 **producing** 119:16 **product** 9:1 37:22 53:11 71:2,6,7,20 72:2,5 ,14 73:12 77:6 82:17 83:9 86:21 87:2,4 89:19 92:7 107:17 111:13 ,13 133:20 141:2 152:7,9 160:12 161:13 ,15 **product-oriented** 70:10 **production** 160:3 **productive** 11:17,20 56:10 135:9 **products** 10:9,19 48:6 60:17 61:6 62:3 ,22 71:11 72:13 73:22 76:22 81:21 82:1 ,11 86:14 87:14,15 89:10 90:10 104:19 105:3 ,12 106:20 109:19 110:10 128:13 ,15

131:19 132:7 136:8,11 143:2 156:21 157:3 161:17 ,22 **professional** 67:4 135:7 173:20 **professionals** 121:10 **program** 13:15 15:2 16:18 25:12 28:1 28:1 61:6 63:22 82:4,18 86:7 99:3 166:7 **programs** 72:1 ,5 ,8 85:1 89:11 93:3 ,4 127:14,15 144:4 144:11 **progress** 10:13 90:13 177:19 **prohibitive** 70:20 **project** 2:10 3:14 5:12 22:4 23:4 45:14 129:13 172:5 **projected** 141:1 **projection** 118:11 **projections** 118:9 **promote** 147:21 **properly** 150:10 **property** 147:8,9 **proportions** 72:22 **proposal** 43:12 45:20 46:15 93:11 **proposals** 113:8 164:12 **proposed** 26:20 43:10,13 45:1 ,2 65:13 88:12,13 ,14 96:12 138:19 141:11 157:8 **proprietary** 40:14 **protect** 163:19 **protective** 163:11 **prove** 132:20 **provide** 18:15 20:3 25:1 40:7 43:18 44:14 48:18 65:22 70:16 95:12 121:7 132:2,15 149:3 ,11 149:21 ,22 154:6 158:16 162:8 163:13 **provided** 65:14,21 98:3 149:13 154:2 162:14 **provides** 69:5

**providing** 13:14,18 **provision** 58:13 111:7 139:18 140:5 **provisions** 32:13 34:19 124:18 126:10 **public** 1:1 5:7 18:2 18:3 ,19 21:21 24:12 25:8 36:14 97:8 122:4 128:18 **public's** 112:17 **publicly** 90:16 **publish** 17:21 18:9 58:7 95:12 **Publishes** 168:13 **pull** 129:10 **pulling** 156:7 **pump** 70:22 71:1 ,3 71:4,9,9,19 72:16 78:5 79:7 **pumps** 72:17,18,19 74:10 75:14 135:21 ,21 **purely** 28:13 **purpose** 23:16 **purposes** 67:14 **pursue** 91:6 145:3 145:11 174:9 **pursuing** 141:3 **purview** 85:8 **push** 123:14 **pushback** 168:18 **pushes** 149:12 **put** 8:9 18:13 19:2 24:11 25:3 26:4 38:4 58:3 66:19 67:2 68:14 70:2 76:14,15 77:18 79:18 82:7 95:20 96:15 ,18 124:7,21 137:20 146:20 152:2 164:3 ,8 166:13 167:1 171:2 173:18 **putting** 65:18 81:15 84:17 129:20 **Q qualifies**  144:6 **qualify** 144:7 **qualitative-type** 83:16 **quandary** 87:22 **quantitative** 83:17 **question** 8:1 17:10 20:20 23:21 38:10 40:6,20 56:17 83:5 ,7 84:16 89:7 92:6 97:18 99:17 99:18 103:15 ,17 117:15 119:19 121:18 134:1 ,11 147:12 150:8 153:5 ,11 ,12,13 ,15 154:4 155:19,20 155:20 159:2 170:16 **questionnaire** 154:1 **questions** 62:6,7 98:4 121:21 125:4 145:13 155:2 156:16 158:6 161:1 ,2 **queue** 77:4 99:3 **quick** 10:2 **quicker** 46:13 157:15 **quickly** 9:21 45:16 45:19 73:3 98:15 148:11 **quite** 21:9 30:8 66:14 67:7 68:10 74:11 126:13 146:1 158:12 **R R**  5:1 102:1 **radar** 143:11 **raise** 41:8 142:11 **raised** 84:17 147:6 **raises** 112:20 144:2 151:3 **raising** 43:9 162:16 **ramp** 140:2,3 **ranges** 149:3 **rankings** 48:6 **rarely** 135:3 **rate** 123:12 **ratepayers** 130:6 **rating** 55:6,10,14 **ratings** 67:9,9 **rattling** 94:2 **reached** 88:2 **react** 58:9 **reacted** 43:2 **reacting** 43:15 64:21 **Reaction** 145:17 **reactive** 28:13 **read** 26:18 **readily** 128:18

**reading** 16:5 **ready** 139:14 145:22 **real** 16:18 39:1 68:4 82:21 87:22 94:18 125:3 140:20 **real-world** 60:5 67:20 **realistic** 98:20 128:4 140:19 **realistically** 64:9 **reality** 59:6 61:22 62:11 **realize** 122:18 **really** 16:10,19 25:10 30:3 32:9 35:16 36:16 40:10 43:4 44:4 45:12 48:1 51:11 ,15 ,18 52:7 53:16,20 56:10,17 61:4,5 65:12 67:21 87:3 91:13 93:13 96:18 99:5 ,17 107:2 118:12 125:9 130:14 135:9,19 142:1 ,2 152:4,11 152:16 156:3 158:18 167:14,18 **reap** 150:11 **reason** 47:8 66:19 90:15 98:13 113:20 117:19 159:22 **reasonable** 142:6 175:19 **reasons** 49:15 58:11 67:6 157:14 169:11 **rebate** 55:10 **rebates** 127:22 **received** 164:17 **receptivity** 90:21 **recessed** 101:5 **recirculation** 72:18 **recognition** 130:21 **recognize** 21:19 64:12 161:20 **recognizing** 138:2 **recommend** 109:20 116:10 **recommendation** 8:5 17:21 100:15 **recommendations** 17:14 22:12 23:10Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 194 24:10 32:17 38:11 38:13 **reconcile** 19:3 62:10 **reconvene** 101:5 **record** 5:3 11:21 13:8 154:15 178:2 **redesign** 89:19 **reduce** 131:7 166:6 **reducing** 90:9 **reference** 60:10 104:8,9 157:21 **reflective** 152:8 **reflects** 21:12 67:20 **refrain** 165:21 **refrigerant** 87:18 87:19 89:16 90:1 92:8,12 **refrigerants** 86:6,14 86:17 87:10 91:21 **refrigeration** 3:1 ,3 3:5 ,7,9 10:9,19 87:8 **refrigerators** 119:16 **regard** 13:18 40:8 40:22 84:5 **regarding** 59:11 62:8 **regards** 83:14,18 93:2 98:9 126:9 **registered** 112:9 **regroup** 142:5 **regs** 61:19,21 **regularly** 134:18 164:5 **regulate** 75:22 86:13 ,21 **regulated** 60:17 76:10,22 77:9,15 114:5 **regulating** 72:15 **regulation** 99:9 122:17 135:22 **regulations** 14:9 55:5 73:15 89:5 91:17 115:20,22 **regulator's** 73:13 **regulatory** 2:9 19:9 20:9 27:16 28:1 30:21 75:21 80:19 82:16,16 83:8,15 84:22 93:3 98:5 115:14,19 **relate** 144:4 **related** 51:16 66:14 115:5 ,6,7 149:19 **relative** 68:17 71:15

**relatively** 43:11 70:18 91:17 **remaining** 11:12 124:3 **remember** 5:4 26:22 109:9 115:15 **remind** 59:9 **remove** 115:20 **reopened** 120:10 **rep** 11:15 **repaired** 147:14 **replaced** 46:11 **replacement** 46:12 **report** 12:5 20:13 20:20 21:11 ,15 23:9 121:7 146:5 **REPORTER** 12:19 13:3 ,7,9 100:17 **reporting** 81:9 **reports** 122:4 175:6 **representation** 12:16 **representative** 38:9 48:5 133:21 **represented** 29:19 **representing** 5:18 6:3 ,8 27:6,22 28:2 **reprogrammed** 51:4 **reps** 96:7 **request** 9:6 17:22 18:7 65:9 97:8 149:10 153:4 **requested** 152:2 **requesting** 44:17 **requests** 152:21 153:3 **require** 21:21 **required** 20:10 58:16 175:6 **requirements** 52:1 64:1 107:6 **requires** 40:15 ,17 58:13 138:18 **research** 130:9 **reside** 113:9 **residential** 135:21 **resistance** 79:9 **resolution** 54:2 **resolved** 53:12 54:4 **resolving** 133:3 **resonating** 64:5 **resource** 24:5 **resources** 45:6 116:12,20 157:7,8 157:12,12 **respect** 15:14 82:1 97:12 173:19 **respond** 43:14 53:22 65:16 112:3 133:9 144:22 147:2 165:20 **responded** 98:17 **responding** 95:7 148:11 **responds** 65:17 **response** 7:3 9:17 12:6,14 15:3 41:14 76:20 80:3 103:1 105:11 120:6,15 123:22 133:6,13 137:19 145:16 164:16 **responsibilities** 105:16 **responsibility** 24:6 28:21 85:10 104:6 **rest** 9:7 64:13 **restatement** 7:12 **restrictive** 78:18 **result** 44:3 120:22 **results** 34:18 45:10 122:21 123:9,11 **retail** 127:19 128:14 128:17 **retest** 56:9 **retrospective** 115:14 117:10 118:1 **return** 114:18,20 **review** 58:14,16 93:11 96:3 98:20 115:14,19 118:21 123:20 136:16,17 153:10 **reviewed** 44:6 98:17 **reviews** 116:12 123:19 **revise** 58:17 **revision** 58:19 **revisions** 12:4 58:14 66:15 **RFI** 124:21 125:19 131:14 132:5 133:5 ,9 135:4 136:3 **Rheem** 2:16 6:12 11:18 118:1 155:15 **Rheems** 14:8 **Richard** 3:18

**right** 8:2 13:3 17:4 17:22 18:9 20:2 20:20,21 21:20 25:16 27:3 28:14 29:18 30:5 32:21 34:14 35:13 37:8 38:9 41:2 42:14 42:20 47:3 49:20 52:10,13 53:8 56:22 57:11 63:7 64:8,21 69:17 75:15 80:5 82:3 84:19 86:6,10 87:7 89:7,12 93:4 93:12 97:14 104:11 106:3 ,18 107:15 108:16 118:12 119:1 121:21 122:1 125:15 126:4 132:19 137:18 139:17 140:19 141:7 143:7 146:17 151:1 153:15 154:13 155:19,19 156:16 156:20 160:6,19 164:1 ,10 166:12 169:14 171:6 174:10 **rigor** 138:9,11 **rippling** 144:8 **Rivest** 2:19 **road** 92:18 **roadblock** 87:12 **roadblocks** 32:16 32:18 **robust** 39:4 40:8,21 **Roda** 3:19 **Roger** 3:13 **role** 13:13 ,14,18 38:14 89:8 91:13 102:10 107:7 **rolling** 67:1 **rollover** 73:1 **rolls** 48:2 164:17 **rooftop** 104:16 **room** 1:7 29:18 43:8 111:3 132:22 141:19 152:19 158:15 159:12,21 **rope** 155:6,7 **Rosenstock** 3:20 **round** 51:9 52:10 125:13 **rule** 43:13 45:15

59:5 ,22 65:12 82:14 88:12,12,15 89:1 91:20 107:20 120:16 138:8 157:8,9,14 **rule-by-rule** 146:7 **ruled** 139:16 **rulemaking** 1:2 25:22 34:11 47:2 48:9 51:9 53:22 54:5 59:19 91:7 94:12 118:22 119:11 ,21 120:12 122:22 125:16 135:2 137:17 138:5 ,19 139:19 145:8 146:9 148:15 149:9 165:2 168:11 **rulemakings** 44:12 73:15 118:5 119:2 141:14,15 147:4 149:8 154:11 ,20 164:15 ,21 ,22 **rules** 11:21 12:1 22:17 58:4 62:19 88:10,22 92:17 94:4 116:13 126:17 127:18 146:10 148:3 163:19 **ruling** 148:4 **run** 15:15 60:20 73:15 167:14 **run-through** 82:15 **running** 11:10 70:7 86:6 87:5 94:7 **S S**  5:1 102:1 ,1 ,1 **safe** 15:13 ,16 **safety** 15:13 87:11 **sage** 99:7 **sales** 40:13 147:6 168:22 **sample** 130:18 **Sarah** 3:15 **satellite** 129:11 **satisfies** 83:21 **satisfy** 111:21 **save** 118:10 **saving** 141:12 167:10 **savings** 119:16 138:7,10 140:12Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 195 141:1 ,1 ,13 167:8 **saw** 138:3 **saying** 12:21 26:19 29:10 44:17 71:10 82:9 114:10 133:12 149:14,20 **says** 30:20 60:5 77:17 87:17,19 89:2 107:3 ,4 109:8 153:11 **scanner** 126:16 **scenario** 59:12 **schedule** 9:5 ,6 11:11 15:7 52:17 53:6,10 87:17 107:12 119:7 136:10 137:7 170:7 **scheduled** 12:8 **schedules** 92:6 **scope** 57:2 68:7 88:9 171:14 **scoping** 50:20 51:19 **scrambling** 9:9 **screen** 143:12 **screw** 148:17 **scrutiny** 98:19 **seat** 88:21 **second** 25:4 39:7 46:20 66:4 120:13 **secretary** 90:10 **section** 82:13 **sections** 60:10 **sector** 99:11 **sectors** 37:21 38:2 **see** 10:5 12:4 18:16 21:9 24:13 30:16 35:10,22 48:14,15 54:9 58:10 62:18 62:20 70:13 76:4 76:22 77:11 85:4 90:12 91:13 ,20 92:2 93:5 98:7 105:18 114:3 ,17 116:13 118:22 119:4 129:7,14 131:1 132:5 140:13 141:18 142:4 145:3 160:18 166:16 167:4 168:10 170:1 171:15 172:4 **seeing** 52:4 71:13 154:12 166:15 **seek** 25:8 **seeking** 61:8

**seen** 43:9 74:8 86:2 92:4 97:7 164:11 **sees** 59:10 **select** 116:13 **sell** 71:9 128:16 **selling** 71:18,20,22 72:1 **send** 18:22 26:1 **sense** 8:16 9:11 ,14 35:11 45:13 50:16 54:7 79:2 83:1 89:20 134:13 161:6 162:8 173:4 175:3 **sensitive** 156:13 **sensitivity** 88:10 **sent** 12:11 51:4 113:16 **sentiment** 59:1 ,16 **separate** 35:11 36:10 46:14 68:22 109:17 **separately** 76:10 77:9 110:3 **September** 90:7 **sequence** 45:13 67:13 99:10 **sequenced** 18:4 **sequencing** 18:4,5 46:15 48:17 54:9 91:19 99:18 **serving** 111:22 **set** 9:1 19:1 32:12 38:13 40:2,7 47:5 57:6 60:21 76:12 86:5 109:19 112:21 113:3 120:14 121:12 135:15 136:17 149:2 165:2 175:9 **sets** 25:7 131:6 164:6 **setting** 23:22 **settings** 132:9 **settle** 112:6 **seven** 54:16 58:15 62:3 63:15 66:10 68:20 174:13 **seven-year** 62:16,18 66:20 **share** 122:9 147:9 156:19 **shared** 7:4,19 52:19 153:8 162:21 **shares** 162:14 **sharing** 35:3 41:11 147:3 ,22 148:6 157:2 174:19 **sheet** 124:19 **Shepherd** 3:4 **shifts** 128:1 **ship** 36:19 **shipment** 162:12,20 164:11 **shipments** 147:6 **shipped** 75:20 **shoes** 25:4 65:18 **shooting** 64:7 **short** 43:12 **show** 12:3 26:5 52:12 **showing** 138:21 **shows** 38:6 135:3 **shy** 141:11 **side** 45:17,21 63:18 85:16 93:7 104:6 126:16 154:9 162:20 166:3 **sides** 108:9 148:7 165:11 ,19 **signed** 27:20 76:13 106:5 **significant** 37:15 42:8 43:14 90:4 139:21 140:12 141:13 151:10 164:12 **significantly** 45:7,9 59:20 128:3 **similar** 71:4 130:4 **simple** 22:2 23:20 **simply** 19:7 23:16 29:17 33:3 148:18 **Simultaneous** 49:22 52:21 72:3 77:20 78:7 81:5 101:3 104:3 129:12 143:1 159:17 174:22 176:20 177:13 **single** 58:16 73:11 95:14 120:18 155:6 **sit** 159:16 **sits** 153:22 **sitting** 27:21 28:1 ,5 111:17 ,18 159:19 **situation** 59:13 62:2 64:11 86:13 **situations** 120:9 **six** 12:9 26:2 52:10 56:21 68:20 123:8 174:11 ,13 **six-year** 138:18 139:11 **skill** 121:11 **slower** 33:22 **small** 138:6,8 141:15 **smaller** 70:17 138:10 **smarter** 130:12 **SNAP** 86:7 88:10 89:5 91:17,20 92:2 **society** 163:16 **Sohler** 3:21 **sold** 128:13 ,16 **solicited** 115:17 **solution** 19:22 38:20,22 39:2 40:21 **solutions** 25:2,7,10 27:3 147:20 **solve** 24:22 25:5 69:13 90:19 151:3 **somebody** 51:10 61:20 81:1 159:16 **someone's** 168:20 **someplace** 136:10 **somewhat** 46:14 109:18 142:19 **soon** 6:19 140:14 **sophisticated** 165:16 **sorry** 17:8 41:6 43:7 53:1 56:15 103:9 115:3 117:7,17 **sort** 7:12,17 18:10 20:15 21:11 ,15 22:18 23:9 24:10 47:16 50:20 54:10 56:15 ,18 66:22 70:7,21 73:2,4 76:6 82:14 95:9 95:12 103:2 108:11 109:6 121:8 122:14,15 122:16 123:12 139:10,18 144:10 152:22 153:6,17 168:10 172:4 **sorts** 24:5 ,8 72:19 73:2 **sought** 62:9 **sound** 106:11 158:13 **sounds** 25:16 42:22

68:15 91:18 158:12 **source** 38:2 128:13 168:13 **space** 110:12 131:1 **speak** 7:15 12:20,20 73:13 148:11 **speaking** 34:10 43:6 159:7 **specific** 18:19 19:17 35:8 37:8 54:5 61:9 74:12 105:2 120:11 ,15 ,16 130:19 157:3 166:10 167:3 168:10 173:1 ,10 **specifically** 18:21 19:10,11 166:10 166:19 **specifics** 96:2 **spelled** 28:21 **spend** 7:21 8:6,13 14:11 ,15 15:12 17:6 25:3 69:15 104:13 ,14 106:9 118:7 133:9 137:22 149:14 **Spending** 151:10 **spent** 15:2 66:12 111:9 **spin** 142:9 **spinning** 104:17 **spoke** 31:15 **spot** 73:3 ,5 **spreadsheets** 168:4 **square** 155:4 **staff** 126:5 ,6 135:5 137:8 **stage** 47:4 56:3 **stakeholders** 46:12 65:16 124:16 **stand** 11:9 **standard** 15:5 29:5 29:7,8,11 31:21 32:2,12 47:15 48:1 ,22 49:1 ,6 50:13 71:17,19 73:11 74:20,20,21 80:19 87:17,18 89:21 90:1 96:13 97:6 108:21 109:9 109:10,11 ,13 114:6 119:3 ,13 128:2 138:8 140:13 145:8Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 196 158:3 161:14 165:2 **standard-setting** 51:20 **standards** 1:2 2:10 3:14 5:12 13:15 18:6 25:12 29:2,3 29:4 30:19 32:6 33:7 35:15 43:12 43:19 47:11 ,11 49:13 ,14 52:9 59:5 60:11 ,21 63:12 74:19 76:7 76:16,17 82:11 ,17 87:14,15 ,16 104:16 106:10 110:21 111:10,13 111:21 112:1 117:11 ,13 138:20 138:22 141:11 144:2 149:12 **standing** 26:19 **standpoint** 119:19 **Stanonik** 3:8 **star** 55:10,14 64:8 127:21 144:7,8 **start** 5:3 ,4 7:15 10:2 16:18 30:14 42:14 43:1 47:13 63:1 ,9 70:11 71:5 72:13 79:5 104:21 125:14,15 ,15 136:3 144:5 169:22 **started** 29:3 30:14 47:15 61:6 63:2 65:6 85:14 102:4 110:7 170:17 **starting** 31:8 41:7 62:18,19 64:11 104:16 145:11 **starts** 50:13 136:4 154:1 **state** 2:14 9:21 27:22 28:4 49:11 58:20 62:13 82:10 82:17 83:12 86:11 **stated** 107:22 **static** 60:1 **statue** 142:18 **statute** 19:20 58:6 74:11 75:17 77:18 107:3 109:8 145:6 **statutes** 124:9 142:20 **statutory** 19:10 20:10 24:2 45:18 74:2,6 75:2 77:2 85:9,10 105:2 106:19 108:22 139:5 ,6 **stay** 82:8 157:5 **stays** 114:20 **step** 71:12 77:2 85:5 99:9 120:17 158:10 172:13 ,18 **stepping** 157:10 **steps** 16:3 23:5 ,14 57:8 136:21 170:6 172:6,6 173:10 **Steven** 3:20 **stick** 79:17 **sticking** 14:17 **stock** 168:22 **stood** 61:5 90:8 **stop** 46:16 **storage** 82:2 **story** 143:6 **straightforward** 77:10 **Strategy** 5:17 **streamline** 119:9 **streamlined** 84:3 **street** 85:22 **stretch** 135:7 **strides** 83:19 **strike** 166:1 **strikes** 38:16 53:6 66:10 80:4 109:19 116:18,22 134:1 135:8 151:12 161:4 168:7 **structure** 135:10 **struggle** 158:8 159:13 **struggled** 152:1 **struggles** 151:19 **struggling** 152:16 **stuck** 86:12 **studies** 37:15 131:20 **study** 37:18 38:6,9 130:4 **studying** 14:18 **stuff** 15:22 19:19 25:21 66:21 98:9 128:6 131:3 150:4 159:16 **Stunder** 3:22 **subcommittee** 68:9 69:15 73:20,21 92:15 **subcommittees** 8:18

41:19 92:22 99:22 99:22 100:8 170:11 **subgroup** 50:1 66:11 67:15 137:1 137:4,4 170:21 171:19 172:20 173:7 **subgroups** 8:18 14:3 17:11 102:9 170:19 **subject** 125:21 **submit** 151:6 **submitted** 97:8,14 115:17 **substance** 12:2 **success** 157:2 **successful** 23:7 25:13 27:11 118:22 **sudden** 60:19 **Suddenly** 87:12 **sufficiency** 63:21 **sufficient** 117:5 ,6 **suggest** 7:18 46:12 102:7 146:16 153:14 163:22 **suggested** 42:4 75:20 137:12 170:22 172:5 **suggesting** 76:3 98:13 103:10,11 117:9 163:14 173:12 **suggestion** 73:17 102:10 113:21 **summarize** 36:1 **summary** 144:14,16 **super** 70:19 **supervisors** 153:10 **support** 10:16 65:14 88:2 100:12 159:8 **supporting** 132:16 138:20 **supposed** 24:18 110:22 **sure** 7:7 9:4 10:5 11:3 19:11 20:19 21:3 ,13 35:16 41:2 43:3 63:9 64:16 69:13 ,19 71:12 73:6 80:13 90:12,17,19 92:18 94:7 96:16 102:17 108:17 110:3 114:19 117:8

122:21 123:8,9,10 124:9 126:5 131:4 131:16 136:9 141:16 144:20 145:21 148:1 150:17 155:15 159:20 167:5 **surprised** 96:10,15 96:18 129:1 **surprising** 112:8 **survey** 153:7,7,8 **surveys** 37:20 **SW** 1:8 **sweet** 73:3 ,5 **sync** 134:12 **system** 51:15 71:21 72:13 73:5 74:1 75:3 ,4,7,10 76:9 77:8 78:13 87:20 171:14 **systems** 70:12,12 73:22 74:9 76:4 76:15 80:8,10 **T T**  102:1 **table** 27:21 28:5 58:18 63:18 64:5 64:14 91:11 98:16 102:18 106:12 129:20 146:4 166:3 ,14 169:21 **tabled** 105:10 113:21 **tack** 119:18 **tackle** 14:4 73:21 124:2 170:19 **tackling** 69:10 173:17 **take** 8:3 ,8,19 10:4 13:13 ,17,21 16:16 17:17 21:7,15 31:10 33:15 41:19 58:6 68:1 ,9 72:4 76:3 92:9 97:16 97:21 98:5 99:9 100:18 106:15 112:5 ,5 114:17 120:17 121:6 124:6,8,8 125:7 136:18,20 151:5 161:14 172:14 173:8 **taken** 37:3 85:5 148:7 172:7 **takes** 66:16 110:13

136:12 151:7,8 157:7,7 **talk** 19:6 31:10,11 46:17 51:15 56:7 56:8 78:15 124:20 128:5 137:8 140:21 145:19 146:4 163:1 ,6 166:11 170:5 ,8 173:2 **talked** 81:19 89:3 92:12 144:18 145:9 151:22 155:3 170:10 172:16 **talking** 15:4,18,19 16:7 19:17 25:6 30:20 40:17 68:17 70:15 78:11 86:1 113:16 128:19 151:14 154:18 155:22 162:10 169:12 **target** 160:20 161:1 **targeted** 113:6 136:7 158:7 **task** 49:21 57:5 103:4 116:15 137:4 147:16 166:9 **tasks** 41:19 171:8 **tax** 127:22 **teach** 44:22 **team** 65:6 153:21 167:2 **tearing** 156:8 **technical** 89:15 **technologically** 139:1 **technologies** 2:17 5:14 15:21 81:19 81:22 130:15 167:21 **technology** 14:15 34:12 50:15 ,17,21 69:8 72:9 96:3 123:6 128:11 131:9 152:3 **tee** 21:1 23:17 **teed** 115:12 169:7 **teleconferences** 159:18 162:7 **tell** 38:7 47:19 83:14 145:22 **telling** 15:4 134:21Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 197 **ten** 65:1 87:16 **tendency** 38:20 **tends** 40:14 99:13 **tension** 48:4,14 **tensions** 67:16 163:1 **term** 11:1 ,7 87:5 **terms** 11:12 17:3 18:14 27:15 53:5 83:13 84:7 94:11 98:10 122:16 129:19 138:6 141:12 174:17 **test** 14:9,12,18,19 14:19,21 15:7,8 16:8,12,14,16 23:22 29:7,8,10 31:16,17 32:4 34:16,18 35:14 36:11 39:9,12,20 39:22 43:10,16,20 44:6,8,10,19 45:1 45:2,5 ,6,7,19 46:4 46:10 47:1 ,2,6,14 47:18 48:5 ,22 49:6,13 ,14 50:14 50:19,22 51:2,13 51:18,21 52:14 53:7,11 ,19 54:2 54:16 55:4,6,18 56:1 ,7 58:11 ,14 58:16 59:2,2,11 60:9,20 61:15 62:3 65:13 66:15 66:20 67:3 ,19,21 68:1 ,3 73:10 77:12 78:3 79:3 84:8 93:6,9 94:6 95:12 96:8,11 99:2,4,15 ,18 100:11 104:6,7,9 111:15 ,15 124:18 125:20 126:1 ,3 ,9 126:15 131:3 ,18 132:10 143:21 144:5 ,9,13 145:6 151:21 152:14 172:16 173:19 **tested** 76:13 **testing** 18:6 34:15 36:21 40:16 45:4 46:7 53:20 60:18 61:6 62:6 156:8 **tests** 15:15 **thank** 6:22 13:7,9 16:22 57:15 62:14 111:17 129:20

166:2 **thankful** 65:20 **thanks** 6:21 7:6 56:14 98:21 **theirs** 60:12 **theory** 24:7 113:6 **thermal** 167:12 **thin** 156:7 **thing** 14:15 20:16 38:19 43:4 47:4 52:8 55:16 56:5 60:16 73:19 74:12 76:2 78:13 ,14 81:18 85:8,9 106:7 108:8 110:6 110:19 111:12 116:21 120:18 128:9 129:5 ,8,18 144:17 164:19 169:22 **things** 7:17 9:9 16:20 18:3 ,14,14 22:2,15 ,16,18,20 23:8 24:5 ,9 26:19 28:13 30:8 32:12 33:21 39:5 ,19 40:18 50:14 52:13 52:15 53:8 56:6 56:21 60:5 65:3 67:10 69:5 ,7 70:3 70:11 ,12,15 ,16 72:17 73:2 76:8 76:11 ,14 77:14 82:9 85:18 93:17 93:22 94:2 103:20 108:3 111:14 119:14 122:19 123:4,6 125:19 127:21 132:16 135:6 141:19 143:15 148:5 150:2,12,19 152:14 155:15 ,16 156:6 162:21 163:4 164:15 171:1 172:12 173:5 **think** 5:7 8:21 9:5 9:10,19 10:14,22 11:16,19,21 ,22 12:8,9,17 13:2 14:1 ,2,10 16:4,9 16:19 17:1 ,1 18:16,17 19:6,8 19:16,18,20,21 20:21 22:15 23:1

23:8 25:2,9 26:11 27:2,4,8,20 28:14 28:20 29:22 30:20 31:14,19 32:3 ,8 32:13 ,15 ,20 33:14 33:17,20 34:7,14 34:20 35:11 ,18 36:13 37:19 38:10 41:9,12 42:4,18 43:3 ,6 44:1 ,12 45:11 ,14 46:14,22 47:19 48:8 49:2,3 49:5 ,10,11 ,18 50:5 51:17 52:3 ,8 53:5 ,16 54:5 ,7,8 55:17 56:16,18 57:3 58:18,22 59:5 ,6,18 60:16 61:3 62:1 ,17 63:17 64:12,15 ,19 65:8 66:13 ,19 67:6,14,15 ,18 68:6,11 ,18,22,22 69:16 70:11 71:4 71:13 73:19 74:3 74:7,8,12 75:13 76:2 78:20 81:6,7 81:18,21 ,22 82:5 82:8 83:11 ,18 84:5 ,8,12,13 ,20 85:3 ,5 88:10 89:14 90:18,22 91:2,3 ,4,6,8,9,12 91:14 92:10,14,22 93:5 ,12,13 ,18,18 93:19,20,21 ,21 ,22 94:2,6,13 ,17 95:5 96:4,6,20 98:2,3 ,6 99:1 ,4,10 100:9 102:3 ,4,9,21 104:18,22 105:11 106:11 ,18 107:1 ,2 107:5 ,12,22 108:5 109:10 110:15 ,20 112:20 114:1 ,2,4 114:9 115:16 116:1 ,8 117:7 118:2,13 ,20 119:18,20 120:3 ,5 120:11 121:1 122:14 123:1 124:6,10,13 ,14,20 125:2,18 126:8,20 127:17 128:6,10 130:8,11 131:3 132:1 ,4,6,12,18

132:19 133:17 ,21 135:11 ,16,18 136:19 137:9,12 137:21 138:4 139:2,3 140:10,11 141:6 142:7,12,13 142:16 143:13 144:17 145:10,22 146:7,10 147:10 147:14,19 148:2,5 148:10,10,13 149:18,19 150:2 150:22 151:4,19 152:6,8,12 154:9 154:10,14 155:19 156:11 157:2,4,5 157:13 ,18 158:4 158:18,21 159:1 ,2 159:4,4,6,7,9 160:6,9,10,16 162:5 ,6,6 164:1 ,2 164:14,22 165:4,5 165:18,19 166:4,5 166:17 ,21 167:2 169:2,12,13 ,13 ,21 170:5 172:2,15 ,17 174:16 177:20 **thinking** 8:15 25:3 46:3 81:18 98:10 104:12 115:7 135:13 136:20 142:5 151:18 154:16 158:4 167:12 **thinks** 155:18 **third** 61:3 **thirsting** 79:10 **thought** 7:13 ,20 8:5 13:20 25:19 31:10 64:2 66:4 105:17 108:13 110:4 114:14 116:1 119:17 130:13 158:11 160:9 177:22 **thoughts** 28:19 30:11 76:18 162:3 170:9,12 173:10 **thread** 160:13 ,17 161:9 **three** 10:7 12:9 30:18 31:3 57:10 71:2 72:17 74:19 77:8,14,19 102:5 102:7 103:8 112:5 112:6 115:6,11

172:6 174:6,7,7 **three-month** 11:7 **threshold** 140:22 141:3 ,7,18 142:13 **thresholds** 141:12 **throw** 17:19 56:15 64:17 **throwing** 157:20 160:8 **thrown** 96:13 104:20 **throws** 64:9 **Thursday** 1:12 11:5 **tidbit** 65:20 **time** 7:22 8:6,13 9:4 9:10,20 11:22 14:12,15 15:1 ,12 25:3 29:11 31:10 33:21 39:15 40:5 42:20 43:11 ,12 54:15 56:7 57:6 59:10 65:1 66:6 66:12,16 69:15 91:21 ,22 99:6 100:22 101:2 104:20 106:9 110:15 113:22 117:8 118:7 120:5 122:21 123:6 133:9 136:8,11 ,17 137:22 142:10 149:15 151:5 ,8,10 156:3 157:2,17,18 161:14 165:2 166:9 175:18 **timeframe** 136:7 139:7 144:2 175:3 **timely** 147:10 149:5 **times** 69:19 152:10 158:15 **timing** 16:20 52:18 84:7 93:19 104:4 158:22 **tiny** 16:3 167:10 **title** 22:7 **to-do** 162:18 **today** 7:14 14:21 20:22 25:6 31:14 41:18 51:12 56:18 57:1 58:8 67:8 74:18 92:19 109:15 118:13 143:19 166:9 170:20 171:9 172:13 173:9Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 198 177:20 **today's** 100:5 163:16 **told** 154:3 **Tom** 2:12 6:10 34:9 50:9 71:8 81:18 118:16 121:4 124:4 129:20,21 136:19 157:19 164:20 171:1 174:2,3 **Tom's** 37:14 122:14 **ton** 104:20 **tons** 47:5 **too-short** 89:19 **tool** 148:3 153:7,8 **toolkit** 148:3 **tools** 116:4 118:4 120:13 **top** 64:1 137:9 **topic** 14:2,4 17:7 30:12 37:9 56:16 60:2 69:12 76:19 80:2,5 ,13 88:9 89:8 91:18 96:3 114:15 115:8 122:12 145:14 **topics** 7:21 8:3 ,6,11 8:20 13:12,16 23:3 30:15 42:2 42:10 57:7 66:10 68:10 91:14 124:3 **tossed** 50:4 **total** 140:22 141:1 **totally** 134:2 **touch** 105:20 146:12 **touched** 47:3 **tough** 142:18 **towel** 64:18 **trade** 30:4 90:7 111:11 ,19,22 112:3 113:10 115:16 160:21 161:11 162:13 163:7,18,20 165:7 173:20 174:21 **traditional** 148:4 **train** 89:6,10 **transaparency** 167:6 **transcript** 16:6 173:9 **transformer** 150:4 **transformers** 70:4,7 **transparency** 67:14 166:15 ,15 ,16,17 166:18 169:15 **transparent** 165:11 165:13 169:8,10 **traunch** 52:9 **tricky** 144:3 ,3 **tried** 58:2 65:22 128:7 **trigger** 106:7 107:18 108:22 113:13 **triggered** 63:8 105:13 107:14 111:1 ,6 **triggering** 63:12 106:21 107:1 **triggers** 63:14 109:2 109:3 **true** 2:13 5:21 39:20 48:21 99:22 144:8 **truly** 150:11 **trust** 34:7 35:16 41:11 128:20 132:10 147:3 148:19 149:18 151:2 **truth** 48:22 135:4 **try** 14:16 28:12 35:22 39:3 ,3 ,6 47:9 49:17 55:17 57:11 60:17 61:11 65:5 66:8 69:13 84:21 129:13 154:21 169:8 **trying** 15:22 16:2 22:14 28:5 ,15 37:10 39:6 41:3 44:22 45:2,17,18 53:22 63:2 69:14 79:22 85:16,20,21 86:13 87:2 88:3 ,9 94:8,8 106:10 137:21 139:4 141:10 155:9 156:4 160:19,20 161:3 **Tuesday** 10:20 176:4 **tuned** 93:4 **turn** 30:13 49:18 73:21 **turning** 149:15 **tutorials** 120:13 **tweaks** 120:6 **twice** 89:19 112:4 **two** 11:13 14:20 18:10 22:2 23:8 27:12 52:14 55:21 57:10 69:11 71:18 89:14 93:17,19,22 100:20 103:19 107:19 110:10 111:10 112:5 ,6 115:1 118:17 125:15 136:12 170:8 172:2 174:5 **two-day** 10:21 11:5 12:9 **two-way** 85:22 **type** 43:19 50:21 53:22 127:9 133:18 141:18 160:18 **types** 32:1 35:20 167:16 **typical** 86:5 **typically** 82:13 108:6 153:6,16 162:13 **typing** 162:17 ,18 **U U.S**  1:1 ,6 3:16 **ultimate** 40:6 **ultimately** 8:4 10:6 14:4,5 17:11 21:6 25:7 34:8 36:8 38:12 41:17 104:20 113:11 **uncover** 48:7 **underneath** 136:10 **understand** 9:21 14:16 16:14 22:3 29:6 32:15 35:17 35:19 36:6 45:21 48:18 52:17 64:13 79:12 88:19 94:21 97:11 105:1 ,3 ,12 108:13 ,19 109:6 117:9 118:11 130:1 151:5 ,6 157:6 165:17 **understanding** 10:12 53:13 54:3 79:21 94:18 96:6 105:19 130:3 146:5 147:19 156:16 174:18 **understandings** 24:17 **understands** 44:4 **underway** 130:4,9 **unfortunately** 163:9

**uniformity** 112:2 **uniformly** 39:16 **unique** 72:14 73:16 111:16 160:10 **United** 2:17 5:14 **units** 10:11 **universal** 29:21 48:22 **universe** 110:10 **universities** 112:12 **unrealistic** 64:2 **unstuck** 79:4 **untenable** 64:12 **update** 48:16 **updated** 126:4 **updating** 15:2 **upsets** 67:10,10 **usage** 124:2 **use** 8:5 32:11 36:15 37:11 ,18 38:8 40:15 45:6 60:12 69:7 73:8 87:18 87:19 95:1 116:19 124:17 126:6,13 126:16,17,18 131:20 140:8 142:2 144:4 **useful** 7:20 17:17 18:14 32:14 42:19 102:14 109:15 116:18 117:1 ,14 125:3 ,4 133:18 145:4,11 161:5 **uses** 142:19 **usually** 128:22 160:13 168:22 **utilities** 127:13 **utility** 127:21 **utilizing** 53:20 **V vaguely**  26:22 **valuable** 156:13 **value** 28:9 69:15 ,16 123:17 **variety** 39:14,15 157:13 **various** 40:9 67:16 111:11 **vector** 56:5 **verbal** 98:14 **verbally** 98:1 **verify** 98:18 **Vermont** 38:6,7 **version** 96:12 **versus** 62:11 114:11 141:11 **vice** 113:17 **Victor** 3:11 **view** 25:22 26:3 43:22 45:2,12 46:18 73:14 91:3 92:10 145:2,5 159:10 **viewed** 45:5 **viewpoint** 114:6 **views** 32:16 **virtually** 43:21 **visibly** 156:9 **visit** 160:1 **voice** 128:22 **voiced** 32:10 **voicing** 157:19 **void** 133:10 **volume** 7:8 128:3 147:6 **voluntary** 85:1 90:8 93:3 **volunteer** 8:19 171:10,21 172:13 172:21 **volunteered** 105:8 **volunteering** 171:20 173:7 **volunteers** 68:10 170:14 171:8 173:3 **voting** 113:7,11 **VRS** 111:2 **W waiting**  81:1 **wand** 142:12 **want** 9:4,12,18 10:4 15:8 17:6 19:14 22:19,20 26:4 30:16 41:2,15 43:1 45:4 48:5 ,8 48:14 49:2 50:15 54:18 55:11 ,15 57:5 ,6,20 58:5 59:14 60:11 65:19 66:8,11 73:10,14 79:7,8 84:10 88:1 88:7 93:14 95:11 95:20 100:4 105:20 106:15 108:3 109:20 110:18 111:18 116:20 117:4,8 118:13 123:14Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 199 125:14,15 129:9 131:17 133:13 137:22 138:6,9,10 141:21 142:11 149:4,4 152:16 154:15 159:15 ,16 160:17 165:9 166:16 167:4,5 168:6 169:19 170:7,21 **wanted** 7:13 ,18 19:1 33:3 56:20 58:8 114:2 124:8,22 172:13 **wanting** 145:1 **wants** 44:15 ,16 59:13 171:18 172:21 **warming** 86:9,11 **warning** 8:21 **warrants** 92:14 **Washington** 1:9 **wasn't** 7:11 10:14 32:4 58:20 66:2 78:5 102:21 106:4 114:3 157:18 **waste** 142:10 **wasted** 29:12 **water** 56:4 72:18 111:2 **wave** 142:12 **way** 17:15 21:16 24:1 ,13 26:10 33:20 34:5 35:1 ,5 35:21 38:21 39:4 39:10,21 46:2 47:5 49:19 50:2 53:5 ,9 61:7 64:20 67:11 ,12,13 68:11 72:6 73:4 76:12 83:4 95:2,6 96:15 96:19 97:22 99:12 104:19 108:18 110:1 ,4 119:15 132:3 135:14 144:12,12 147:10 148:2 154:5 ,8 155:15 ,16 157:10 158:6,9 164:3 168:5 ,15 169:9,17 **ways** 35:6 45:9 46:13 52:5 70:13 81:15 128:8 147:8 156:6 **we'll** 14:15 20:6 43:14 46:17 49:2 49:2 126:19

134:20 136:17 **we're** 7:15 8:2 14:17 14:18,19 16:2 17:11 ,13 19:5 ,17 21:20 24:9,17 25:5 26:13 29:10 29:18 36:15 37:2 41:3 44:11 ,17 45:2 48:11 52:4 52:13 53:21 63:3 63:8,13 64:4,4,5 64:21 66:14 68:15 69:10,13 ,13 71:10 71:13 74:22 75:7 76:5 78:11 ,14,17 78:17,18,20 81:14 83:21 84:4 85:1 85:16 86:1 87:22 88:8 91:20 92:1 94:8 95:5 ,7 96:16 100:7 102:3 ,8 104:16,16 106:9 107:5 109:16 115:10 127:3 128:6 131:10 132:2 133:2,5 ,6 134:19 136:1 139:10 140:13 146:9,9 150:8,17 154:10,11 ,12,14 154:16 155:9 156:4,6,21 157:10 159:19 160:20 167:20 169:9 170:2,6,20 174:8 **we've** 5:5 10:17 37:3 43:9 46:2 51:1 ,8,12 52:10 56:20 63:22 78:14 79:20 83:19 92:4 95:13 98:3 107:13 120:4,9,11 121:16 127:17 ,19 134:17 141:14,15 151:20 152:1 ,10 153:2 155:3 ,13 162:4,10 164:2,21 170:10 **wearing** 27:12 **web** 128:11 **webinar** 5:5 ,7,8 6:20 175:12 **webinars** 162:7 **wedge** 9:9 **Wednesday** 11:5 176:4 **weeds** 37:8 161:10

161:12,15 **week** 8:1 9:7 10:12 10:20,21 11:5 ,8 15:2,18 16:5 36:17 88:12 175:14 176:2 **weeks** 12:10 52:15 **weighted** 69:5 **Weiss** 4:1 **welcome** 25:9 27:18 53:3 93:5 100:11 **went** 10:13 88:12 119:1 135:22 **weren't** 64:1 113:22 **whatnot** 107:21 **whatsoever** 85:19 **wheel** 104:17 **wheels** 142:9 **white** 20:13 ,19 90:6 94:20 **who've** 134:20 **wholeheartedly** 58:22 59:15 62:11 **wide** 39:14 137:13 **wider-level** 94:4 **willing** 64:17 109:15 156:19 163:9 **willingness** 159:2 **window** 152:22 **Windows** 118:6 **Winningham** 2:6 6:1 ,1 **wiped** 98:15 **wireless** 51:5 **wished** 165:13 **woefully** 51:3 **wonder** 83:3 108:2 129:2 133:5 ,17 157:20 158:1 **wondered** 78:4 **wondering** 35:4 99:14 113:20 134:3 **words** 84:17 89:21 **work** 8:20 9:2 10:16 16:19 17:12 19:14 21:5 ,12 23:2,22 24:1 ,6,6 28:6 30:21 33:19 37:3 37:16 40:16 43:17 45:3 54:8 57:5 60:12 64:20 74:4 80:19 83:10 84:3 84:6 89:4 91:16 95:15 99:3 ,13 100:8,13 102:9

105:13 107:8,17 108:6 118:3 126:19 127:8,11 130:19 134:8 137:6 143:14 147:15 158:2 160:22 170:9,12 171:17 172:3 ,21 173:8 175:18 176:12,13 **worked** 11:21 12:1 147:10 158:17 **working** 9:22 10:18 11:16 14:3 48:1 63:10 64:20 67:8 79:6 84:4,13 91:3 95:5 99:6 110:8 110:13 ,16 113:1 121:9,9 131:2,5 144:1 150:4 169:6 169:7 173:15 175:6 **works** 16:10 24:2 67:13 ,14 105:6,10 105:19 108:12 110:3 129:6 176:6 176:17 **workshop** 115:16 **world** 46:22 47:1 48:15 54:10 59:1 62:12 82:16 112:19 123:10 **worried** 163:17 **worth** 30:20 77:10 125:12 131:12 141:3 **worthwhile** 25:2 96:20 141:22 142:3 159:5 **wouldn't** 26:3 46:4 68:14 116:20 138:9 154:15 165:9 166:12 **wrap** 57:12 66:8 **wrapping** 169:22 **write** 98:7 **writing** 96:8 97:15 **written** 12:7 97:7 98:8,16 125:19 142:20 **wrong** 43:7 119:1 153:11 ,12,13 154:4,5 ,5 155:11 156:20 **wrote** 146:19 **X**

**X** 18:10 38:6 53:12 54:4 **Y Y**  18:10 38:6 **yeah** 11:15 22:9 26:10 27:2,2,2 64:15 81:6 95:5 96:17 97:13 ,20 100:3 ,3 106:2 120:3 121:1 ,3 127:13 ,17 129:16 132:18 134:6 143:4 146:22 154:3 163:18 168:19 171:5 175:7 **year** 9:7,12 21:10 21:11 56:5 68:4 111:1 112:4 115:18 125:10 131:11 **year's** 125:12 **years** 32:1 48:11 52:10,11 54:17 58:15 62:4 63:15 65:1 79:20 83:2 87:16 97:7 104:15 106:17 115:18 123:8 125:16 136:12 167:22 168:16,16 **yell** 129:9,16 **yeses** 12:22 **yesterday** 7:20 12:12 **yield** 89:17 **Yilmaz** 3:6 **Z Z**  18:10 38:6 **zero** 89:12 **zeroing** 100:7 177:22 **0 1**  **1** 137:5 **1-2-3** 118:6 **1:00** 101:5 **1:12** 102:2 **10** 54:17 **10:09** 1:11 5:2 **100** 16:17 105:22Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting April 30, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 200 **100,000** 131:11 **1000** 1:8 **12** 97:7 **12:00** 101:4 **13** 41:16 **14** 41:17 **15** 69:12 176:2 **15th** 175:8 176:3 **16th** 176:4,5 **17th** 176:4,5 177:1 177:2,7,8 178:1 **180** 56:2 **18th** 176:5 ,10,12,13 176:17 **1970s** 77:21 **19th** 176:17 ,18 **1st** 136:1 **2 2**  167:12 **2:38** 178:4 **20** 168:16 170:6 **2007** 58:12 140:4 **2007-ish** 96:12 **2014** 58:17 **2015** 1:12 9:13 **2016** 63:9 **20585** 1:9 **3 30**  1:12 16:16 79:20 168:16 **34350** 63:10 **4 45**  57:7 **4A-104** 1:7 **5 5**  137:18 **6 6**  137:20 **60** 62:2 63:22 132:7 136:8 **60-item** 141:4,5 **7 7**  143:19,20 **8 8**  143:20 146:19 **80** 15:12 105:22 **80s** 77:21 **9 90.1**  98:9 105:9,21 105:22 106:6 108:4 110:1 111:16 113:6,12 113:16 114:7,10 **98** 70:9 **99** 70:9 78:22 143:6 **99.9** 169:13

### 201 

# TRANSCRIPTION CERTIFICATE



# As a professional transcriber, I certify that the attached document{s) are, to the best of my abilities, an accurate transcription of audio recordings provided to the company, given the quality of the provided audio recording{s), and that I have no financial or other interest in the proceedings to which they pertain.

TRANSCRIBER