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S. HRG. 113–346 

SMALL BUSINESSES SPEAK: SURVIVING THE 

GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN? 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

OCTOBER 15, 2013 

Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana, Chair 

JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho, Ranking Member 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

TOM HARKIN, Iowa 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland 

JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire 

KAY R. HAGAN, North Carolina 

HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota 

EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts 

DAVID VITTER, Louisiana 

MARCO RUBIO, Florida 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

TIM SCOTT, South Caarolina 

DEB FISCHER, Nebraska 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin 

JEFFREY S. CHIESA, New Jersey 

JANE CAMPBELL, Democratic Staff Director 

SKIFFINGTON HOLDERNESS, Republican Staff Director 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS

Page 

Landrieu, Hon. Mary L., Chair, and a U.S. Senator from Louisiana .................. 1 

Heitkamp, Hon. Heidi, a U.S. Senator from North Dakota ................................. 4 

Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L., a U.S. Senator from Maryland ................................. 7 

Levin, Hon. Carl, a U.S. Senator from Michigan .................................................. 7 

WITNESS TESTIMONY

Smith, Joaneane, President and Chief Executive Officer, Global Commerce 

and Services, LLC ................................................................................................ 12 

Leh, Christopher J., President, Tl Technologies, Inc. ........................................... 15 

Firestone, Lisa, President and Chief Executive Officer, Managed Care Advisors ........................................................................................................................ 19

Griffall, Keith, Chief Executive Officer, Western Leisure, Inc. ........................... 25 

Poole, Sabrina B., President and Chief Executive Officer, SERDI, LLC ............ 30 

Singh, Barun, Founder and Chief Technology Officer, WegoWise, Inc. .............. 35 

Robertson, Sally B., President and Chief Executive Officer, Business Finance 

Group, Inc. ............................................................................................................ 41 

Ford, Antwayne, President and Chief Executive Officer, Enlightened, Inc. ....... 49 

Withee, Charles, President, The Provident Bank ................................................. 55 

Paul, Ronald D., Chairman, Eagle Bancorp, Inc. .................................................. 58 

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L. 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 7 

Farquharson, Dr. Stuart 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 108 

Firestone, Lisa 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 19 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 20 

Ford, Antwayne 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 49 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 51 

Griffall, Keith 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 25 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 26 

Heitkamp, Hon. Heidi 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 4 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 5 

Landrieu, Hon. Mary L. 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 1 

Post-hearing questions for the record posed to: 

Sally B. Robertson ..................................................................................... 84 

Lisa Firestone ............................................................................................ 91 

Joaneane Smith ......................................................................................... 93 

Keith Griffall ............................................................................................. 94 

Sabrina B. Poole ........................................................................................ 99 

Christopher J. Leh .................................................................................... 102 

Leh, Christopher J. 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 15 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 16 

Levin, Hon. Carl 
Page

IV 

—Continued 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 7 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 9 

List of 7(a) and 504 Loans Approved ..................................................................... 123 

National CAPACD 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 104 

Paul, Ronald D. 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 58 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 60 

Poole, Sabrina B. 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 30 

Biographical sketch .......................................................................................... 32 

Robertson, Sally B. 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 41 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 43 

Singh, Barun 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 35 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 37 

Smith, Joaneane 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 12 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 13 

Tobiska, W. Kent 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 109 

U.S. Senate Committee on Small Business & Entrepreneurship 

‘‘Shutdown Impact Stories’’ .............................................................................. 124 

Withee, Charles 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 55 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 56 

World Trade Center New Orleans 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 116 
(1) 

SMALL BUSINESSES SPEAK: SURVIVING THE 

GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN? 

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2013 

UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP, Washington, DC. 

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m., in Room 

SR–428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Mary L. Landrieu 

(Chair of the Committee) presiding. 

Present: Senators Landrieu, Levin, Cardin, Shaheen, Hagan, 

Heitkamp, and Fischer. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARY L. LANDRIEU, CHAIR, 

AND A U.S. SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA 

Chair LANDRIEU. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you all for 

making the effort to join us here today for this hearing to allow the 

voices of small business and partners of small business to be heard 

in how this shutdown of the Federal Government is affecting you. 

We are now on day 15 of a government shutdown and, unfortunately, only two days away from the possibility of the United 

States signaling to the world that we will not pay our bills. American Express CEO Ken Chenault said, quote, ‘‘If the United States 

hits a debt ceiling and is unable to pay its debts, the consequences 

will be immediate and dramatic. The United States,’’ he went on 

to say, ‘‘has been the wealthiest nation on the planet for 100 years. 

No one ever believed the United States would not pay its bills. If 

the U.S. defaults, the world financial system literally unwinds.’’ 

Gautam Mukunda, a Harvard Business School professor, said 

this week, ‘‘The economic risk to the average American if the government defaults on its debts is so great, I find it hard to believe 

policy makers would ever allow it to happen. The entire crisis is 

entirely unnecessary and avoidable.’’ 

Yet, we are here today still facing this potential catastrophic crisis because of, in my view, a small minority from one party in one 

House decided to hold the Federal Government and the global economy hostage to defund or delay a health care law they find objectionable, a health care law that passed the Senate on December 24, 

2009, passed the House on March 21, 2010, was signed into law by 

President Obama on March 23, and upheld by the Supreme Court 

on June 28, 2012. 

Hundreds of committees held hearings on this law over a span 

of 40 years. This committee held several hearings on this law, one 

just recently, where we had people come in and talk about what 
2 

they liked about it, and what they did not like about it. I will refer 

to that in a minute. At our recent hearing, we heard from one 

small business owner from Maryland. He stated, ‘‘I always wanted 

health insurance, and being self-employed, we could not afford it. 

I do not want to go back to that.’’ He went on to say the status 

quo was completely unacceptable. ‘‘Doing nothing would have 

wreaked havoc on my business and other small businesses like it.’’ 

We had at that time a stream of testimony that is on this record 

and public record of business owners saying how pleased they were 

with many parts of the law. We had some on record that said they 

did not like parts of the law. 

But what we find ourselves here today is because a small group 

could not get it amended, repealed, et cetera, they have now shut 

down the government. And I wanted to give voice to small businesses today, regardless of what your feeling is about that particular act or health care in general, we want to hear from small 

businesses about how the Federal Government, when it furloughs 

almost 800,000 people and puts a stop to contracts, projects, et 

cetera, how it affects small business. Maybe there is no effect. We 

will hear from you all today. I think there is. 

So, this hearing will attempt to focus attention on the current 

government shutdown on America’s small businesses, and there are 

27 million of them, 20 million self-employed, about seven to eight 

million small businesses, and we have thousands of banks represented here that lend to those businesses. We are going to get 

some of this on the record today. 

Our witnesses, all of you, come from a variety of different industries. You come from the tourism industry, from the high-tech efficiency firms, from IT, from cybersecurity firms, you represent the 

health care sector, and even a small manufacturer of gun parts is 

here to testify about how this shutdown is affecting your business. 

Some of my colleagues that have joined me, and I will recognize 

them in a minute and thank them for being here—everyone is on 

a tight timeframe today—but some of their firms that they represent in their States have expressed strong—given strong letters 

of support for this hearing and expressed their views. Here are just 

some that we have collected, and I will do this briefly. 

One of my small business owners in Donaldsonville, Louisiana, 

Todd Dorian, sent me a letter. He works in the sugar industry. He 

is owner of a small consulting business, but he wanted to open 

Grapevine Cafe ́ and Gallery in Donaldsonville. Now, we are famous 

for our restaurants, lots of good food, and they are not always fancy 

places, but they are always good. I have no doubt his would have 

been one. He had nearly completed an application for a 504 loan 

which he would use to purchase the restaurant. The SBA had not 

approved the loan yet. The restaurant he is buying has 15 employees, but in his plan, he was going to add five new jobs within 90 

to 120 days of purchase. That job hiring has been delayed because 

his loan application could not be approved because this is just one 

of 500 agencies of the Federal Government that are closed down 

and not operating properly. 

Another one of our businesses, in business a long time, Perez and 

Associates from the 1940s, it has grown into a national company. 

This company happens to now be owned by women and minority- 
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owned. Their government clients include the Corps of Engineers, 

Department of Agriculture, U.S. Air Force. More than 50 percent 

of their work is Federal contract, but 50 percent is private. They 

are losing, they have testified to me, more than $41,000 a day and 

40 employees are affected by this shutdown. 

Another Louisiana company, Gulf Coast Bank, that I am well 

aware of, they are one of our strongest small business lenders. 

They are one of the largest mortgage lenders in South Louisiana. 

They have closed over 1,300 loans totaling $230 million to date. 

They are on target this year to close $300 million because the market is picking up and things are moving forward. Yet, every day, 

they said, they are losing—they are saying no to $1.8 million in 

lending because of this closure. 

I am going to read just one more off that is not from Louisiana, 

that is from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and then turn it over to 

my colleagues for brief opening remarks as we get to our panel. 

But in the Wall Street Journal just this week, Charlotte Calmels 

had been planning to use a $150,000 SBA loan to open her second 

French restaurant in Philadelphia. But before the loan can close, 

her lender, which is Susquehanna Bank, must confirm her legal 

immigration status. That process begins with the SBA. The Federal 

immigration agency, which remains open because they are under 

an exception, stopped receiving requests because they cannot get 

what they need from the SBA, which brings to the point that just 

because a few agencies have been deemed ‘‘essential’’ under the 

emergency does not mean by any chance that operations are going 

smoothly and it is stopping a lot of economic work in our nation. 

I hope that we can open up our government. 

I am going to submit the rest of my statement for the record, but 

I want to just say that the SBA approved 53,000 loans supporting 

over 30 business and small business lending through its flagship 

7(a) and 504 loan programs. If loan volumes hold, that means every 

day the government is shut down, an average of 150 loans totaling 

over $93 million are not being processed. 

The Export-Import Bank is under the wheelhouse of this committee. What about that bank? Last year, 88 percent of the ExportImport Bank transactions were from small businesses, totaling $6.1 

billion. That bank today is not currently operating. Translate that 

to $16.7 million a day of lost transactions for small businesses all 

over America. 

Now, let us take the IRS. I promise you, this is not going to be 

on the favorite list of House Republicans to open it up. It is not 

one of my favorite agencies, either. However, many small mortgage 

lenders and real estate agencies are in danger of seeing transactions put on hold because, by law, any mortgage loan approved 

is subject to the review by a mortgage lender of at least one year’s 

worth of Federal tax returns. If they cannot get one year’s worth 

of Federal tax returns verified by the IRS, all of these mortgages 

and loans are tied up. So you can see what our situation is here. 

So, let me, in closing, say we have a wonderful collection of small 

business owners today who, I know you are eager to tell your stories. I look forward to hearing you all. 

Chair LANDRIEU. I am going to turn to my Ranking Member 

when he arrives, but until then, let me, in order of appearance, rec-
4 

ognize the Senators just for a very brief, you know, one minute or 

two, opening remarks, and then I would like to introduce our panelists. 

Senator HEITKAMP. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. HEIDI HEITKAMP, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM NORTH DAKOTA 

Senator HEITKAMP. Thanks so much, Chairwoman Landrieu, for 

putting this hearing together in such a short period of time, and 

I want to assure the witnesses, we understand that your time is 

valuable, but your stories are extraordinarily important and this 

opportunity to really tell those stories, I think, is critical to impressing upon people that there is more that is hurt than just feelings here. There is more than what is hurt than just our emotion. 

And this may come as a surprise. This committee is a committee 

that I worked very hard to be on because North Dakota, in fact, 

is affected almost more than any other State with the SBA shutdown. My home State of North Dakota actually ranks number one 

in the number of loans per capita based on dollar value secured 

through the SBA. The agency reported that in fiscal year 2012, it 

granted almost $28 million, or $152 per resident, of loans in North 

Dakota. And in the first four months of the current fiscal year, the 

SBA provided twice as much financing compared to the same period in 2012. And you might know that North Dakota is undergoing 

a huge economic boom. 

But what is really tragic here is that this opportunity that small 

business people have of taking advantage of this economic opportunity in North Dakota is being stifled every day, and tragically, 

the places where it is being hit the hardest is our Indian Reservations. And I could tell you very sad stories, but I think it is important that we hear your individual stories and not relay the ones 

that we have from home, and so I would ask that my whole opening statement be available for the record. 

[The prepared statement of Senator Heitkamp follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Without objection. Thank you. 

Senator Cardin. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM MARYLAND 

Senator CARDIN. Well, Chairman Landrieu, first of all, thank you 

very much for bringing us together and thank you for pointing out 

so frequently on the floor of the Senate, in our caucus, and to the 

American people the harm being caused to our country as a result 

of the shutdown of government. 

I represent the State of Maryland. We have ten percent of our 

workforce that works for the Federal Government—ten percent of 

our workforce. It has had a huge impact on the Maryland economy. 

So we know about that ten percent. We know about that 125,000 

or 130,000 Federal workers who are furloughed. But it is having 

a major impact on small businesses in our State. 

I stopped at a restaurant last week near the Baltimore beltway 

and I know the owner and I asked him how things are going. He 

said, ‘‘Terrible.’’ He said, ‘‘You know, we do not have the Federal 

workers who usually come in here and have lunch. I do not know 

how much longer we can deal with our current situation with the 

government shutdown.’’ So businesses are hurting. 

I want to thank all of the guests that we have here today that 

are going to relay their stories. I am particularly pleased that we 

have so many on the panel that have a Maryland connection. 

We talk about the Federal workers, but how about the employers 

that do contract work for the Federal Government? That is a huge 

number in my State and around the country. So I am glad that 

Lisa Firestone is here, who will be able to talk about the fact that 

90 percent of her revenues are in jeopardy because of the shutdown. She helps save money for the Federal Government in the 

work that you do for lost days and worker comp costs, and we know 

the great work that you do. We want to see you at full strength. 

And to Sabrina Poole, a woman-owned small business, 25 percent 

of her revenues are jeopardized because of the shutdown. 

And I want to also thank Sally Robertson and Ron Paul for being 

here to explain what this will mean from the point of view of the 

SBA inactivities as it affects the businesses done by their financial 

institutions. This is important for us to get your story and I thank 

you for being here. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Senator Levin. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CARL LEVIN, A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM MICHIGAN 

Senator LEVIN. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman, for 

doing this, and for your great leadership here. 

Small business is getting clobbered by this government shutdown. Each of us have probably dozens of stories. I have about a 

dozen in my statement, which I would ask that you put in the 

record. I will just use one of those stories, and will try to pick out 

the one here which maybe somehow or other will resonate. 

There is a little ferry service that runs out of Leelanau County 

way up in the Northwest part of the Lower Peninsula, a little ferry 

service that runs hunters and hikers and bikers to a little island 
8 

in the Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore. Under the government shutdown, that ferry service cannot run. Five runs a week is 

all it was doing, 50 people on each ferry, about 250 people at about 

$35 each. That is the income of that ferry service. It cannot run. 

It is about $8,000 in lost fares per week. A small business, one of, 

again, a dozen that I am setting out here in my opening statement. 

The only point I would make other than that, Madam Chairman, 

is this. Everybody wants us to negotiate. It is obvious we should 

negotiate. It is obvious that the negotiations have to be bipartisan. 

The real issue is whether government is going to be functioning 

while we negotiate. And on that, everybody ought to join in and 

say, of course, government should be functioning while you negotiate. That is the issue. 

And I would hope our small business people will let their own 

representatives and Senators know how important it is that government reopen. Negotiate, of course, but for heaven’s sakes, pay 

our bills while we negotiate. But please, please get government 

open again while these negotiations take place. 

So, again, my thanks to you, Madam Chairman, for your tremendous leadership, not just in this committee, but publicly on the 

floor of the Senate and so many other ways you are indispensable 

in this effort. 

[The prepared statement of Senator Levin follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Well, thank you, Senator. I appreciate that. 

You have been a leader for many years yourself. 

I am going to ask each member, because we have a large panel, 

and it is unusual, but we have set it up this way so we could be 

both formal, if necessary, and informal in questions and back and 

forth. Let us start with you, Ms. Smith, if we could. If you would, 

just introduce yourself and for one minute give your views about 

your business and how it is being affected. And then I have got 

questions to throw out to all of you as we continue this hour-anda-half hearing. Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF JOANEANE SMITH, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, GLOBAL COMMERCE AND SERVICES, LLC 

Ms. SMITH. Okay. My name is Joaneane Smith. I am President 

and CEO of Global Commerce and Services. We are an information 

technology company based in New Orleans, Louisiana. 

I am currently in D.C. because I have meetings with private industry clients. Originally, I planned on meeting with Federal Government agency clients. However, they are unavailable due to the 

shutdown. We are not able to meet with our small business representatives, our contracting officers, and our contracting officer 

representatives at the agencies to get assistance since they are furloughed, as well. 

GCS was started with me being an independent contractor while 

working my own contracts before branching out to other agencies. 

We managed to get a line of credit for our business while using my 

property as collateral. 

I have been asked to talk about the impact of the shutdown and 

how it has affected me and my company. The most compelling 

thing that has happened as a result of the shutdown is having my 

resources at home and not billing my USDA contract in New Orleans. The contract started September 1 of 2013 with three resources 

and we received a stop work order two weeks ago. USDA is one of 

our major agencies we work with. 

In the interim, we are still paying salaries, health insurance, and 

other benefits for resources with hopes of starting back on our contracts soon. We currently have a total of 17 resources covering our 

contracts. GCS is a $2 million company in revenue. Payroll is 

$33,000 per month, and insurance is $3,800 per month. We have 

approximately $60,000 in reserves that we can use for payroll. 

We are doing our best to keep our employees working, since they 

have already started the contract before the furlough. Another two 

weeks of the furlough, it will make it tough for us to continue to 

pay our employees who are not billable at this time. Another three 

or four weeks of the furlough, we will definitely have to have our 

own furlough. 

There are contracts which we are anticipating awards. However, 

they have been placed on hold because of the furlough. GCS is 

pushing for the furlough to end so we can put our people back to 

work. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Smith follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you, Ms. Smith. 

Mr. Leh. 

STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER J. LEH, PRESIDENT, TL 

TECHNOLOGIES, INC. 

Mr. LEH. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, Senators, and fellow 

entrepreneurs. I wanted to take a quick moment just to thank you 

for the opportunity to tell my story about the success and the 

plight of my company, TL Technologies. 

TL Technologies is a specialty manufacturer of precision metal 

components, supplying brand-name manufacturers and worldwide 

markets. Since its inception, the business has grown rapidly from 

an idea and is now poised with recently awarded projects to double 

in size in 2014. 

To truly appreciate the predicament that we find ourselves in 

today, I believe it is really important for you to understand the investment that I, my family, and my business partner have made 

to build TL Technologies to be a $1.2 million company. 

We currently employ three people in the manufacturing sector. 

We were about four weeks into the process of securing additional 

capital to support the new business and we were being backed by 

an SBA 7(a) loan and we missed the window when the government 

shut down, so we cannot proceed with the purchasing of our equipment. We had to stop about $600,000 worth of equipment from 

moving. We idled riggers, electricians, employees. We had already 

extended two offers of employment to highly educated CNC machinists who would make combined salaries of around $130,000 a 

year with full medical benefits. We had to rescind those offers and 

we are completely and absolutely in a stall mode at this point. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Leh follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Ms. Firestone. 

STATEMENT OF LISA FIRESTONE, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF 

EXECUTIVE OFFICER, MANAGED CARE ADVISORS 

Ms. FIRESTONE. Chair Landrieu and distinguished members of 

the committee, thank you for this opportunity to testify this afternoon. 

My name is Lisa Firestone. I am President, CEO, and owner of 

Managed Care Advisors, a woman-owned small business founded in 

1997 specializing in employee benefits and workers’ compensation. 

I also sit on the board of Women Impacting Public Policy, or WIPP. 

MCA specializes in reducing the risks associated with work-related injuries and illnesses. Since 2005, our Federal agency customers have projected workers’ compensation savings of more than 

$100 million, which includes 440,000 avoided lost time days. Today, 

we hold six Federal contracts accounting for approximately 90 percent of our revenue. We have 39 employees in 16 States. We expect 

to hire more than 25 additional employees during 2014. 

In many ways, our growth through public sector contracting is 

the success story that this committee seeks to promote, yet our 

company has been thrown into turmoil since the government shutdown. The new staff we have hired cannot complete their required 

security clearance, so I am forced to carry them longer than anticipated. New hires are also held up because the e-Verify system is 

not operational due to the shutdown. My 39 employees are working. However, it is uncertain when the company will be paid. In 

order to meet our financial obligations, we will be drawing on our 

line of credit, which we estimate can cover us for 60 to 90 days and 

no longer, and we are paying an interest rate of 4.5 percent. 

During WIPP’s annual meeting in Washington, D.C. last week, 

many women came forward to plead to Congress to open the government. They came from both political parties and made it very 

clear that we were not interested in assigning blame, that we just 

wanted a solution. Small businesses like MCA, who are draining 

our resources to cover the government’s obligations, need to know 

whether there is a plan in place for expediting the payment of pastdue invoices when Congress reopens the government. 

I would like to end with a favorite quote. Nobody can go back 

and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make 

a new ending. I urge the Congress to work together in a bipartisan 

fashion to make a new ending, one that benefits all of us. 

Thank you very much for the invitation to speak today. I look 

forward to questions. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Firestone follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you very much, Ms. Firestone. 

Mr. Griffall. 

STATEMENT OF KEITH GRIFFALL, CHIEF EXECUTIVE 

OFFICER, WESTERN LEISURE, INC. 

Mr. GRIFFALL. Thank you, Chairwoman Landrieu and all the 

members of the committee. I really appreciate you having the foresight to have us come here and tell our stories, and hopefully, we 

will make it clear that this is devastating to small businesses. 

I am the founder and CEO of a small tour operator located in 

Salt Lake City, Utah. We operate tours and they are customized 

group travel tours for other tour operators and special interest 

groups. Most of our tours operate in the Western United States, 

and consequently, we include national parks, monuments, and 

recreation areas in almost all of our tour programs. It would be 

pretty hard to overstate the adverse economic effects this shutdown 

of the government and the national parks has had on small businesses and entire communities of the Western United States. 

I am here not just to represent my company, which is managing 

to hang in there for the moment, but there are thousands of small 

businesses that are related to the tourism industry. It is an industry which is populated mostly by small and very small businesses, 

and as a tour operator, we use these businesses on every program 

we operate, everything from hotels, attractions, motels, gift shops, 

restaurants. 

These businesses were immediately affected by this shutdown 

and they are suffering and many of their workers will never see 

this money come back, and certainly the companies will not, either. 

This is not something they are going to get back pay for. If you 

work in a restaurant and you make tips for a living and no one 

shows up to your restaurant, you do not get that money back. So 

it is the type of thing that truly has been difficult for the tourism 

industry. 

The first years of the 21st century have been very difficult for 

the tourism industry and we have, as a small tour operator out 

West, still suffered from all of these. Obviously, the first one was 

the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It took us about three 

years to recover from that, and fortunately, we had loans from the 

Small Business Administration to get through that time frame. 

The natural disasters that have come from Hurricane Katrina, 

which I am sure Senator Landrieu would be more than familiar 

with, Western forest fires, Superstorm Sandy, and on to the difficult economic times of 2008, which have just this year turned the 

corner, where tourism businesses are coming back to where they 

were before 2008. People had confidence. They began to spend their 

money on travel again. 

And now we have the government shutdown of 2013, which is 

just one more devastating blow to the small businesses, not just in 

the Western United States but certainly throughout America. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Griffall follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Ms. Poole. 

STATEMENT OF SABRINA B. POOLE, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF 

EXECUTIVE OFFICER, SERDI, LLC 

Ms. POOLE. Good afternoon, Honorable Chair, Ranking Member, 

and members of the committee. I am Sabrina Poole, President and 

CEO of SERDI. SERDI is a small disadvantaged woman-owned certified 8(a) information technology firm providing IT consulting services to the Federal Government. So, basically, the Federal Government is our number one, you know, source. 

I am pleased to be here today to discuss the impact of what the 

shutdown has to my company. I cannot even begin to speak, because it has been quite from one extreme to the other. We have 

had to lay off our billable and non-billable staff, which means that 

the current contract that we do have that is ongoing, where we 

have not had a stop work order, we do not have anyone to really 

oversee the contracts, which is on the DOD side. This means that 

our revenue is going to be down and we are not, compared to large 

companies, we do not have deep pockets where we can afford to 

have folks stay on the payroll, so we were forced to lay off. We 

could not do like you did and keep them on the payroll for an extended amount of time. 

The financial impact has been really horrible. Our revenues are 

down about 25 percent and it has continued to go down from there. 

Most of our employees are not billable, which means that we have 

a big decrease in revenue and we will see this decrease for several 

months because as the government invoice cycle continues to 

progress and the new contracts we have won, there are no task orders on them, we think that it probably will take us about a year 

to recuperate some of the losses we have had. 

Similar to Ms. Smith, we worked for the last six months to capture work, which you spend six months capturing and winning 

work. We won the work. In September at the USDA, the same 

thing happened. They pulled the plug. The State Department has 

been ongoing for our essential personnel. The FAA pulled the plug. 

The IRS pulled the plug. 

And so all my employees, I now have them on unemployment. 

Our staff has been laid off and they are going for unemployment 

benefits. There has been a lot of talk about the Federal workers 

being paid. I have yet to hear about the contracting staff, so they 

know they will not be paid for this time off. 

Ultimately, my fear is that a lot of my good employees, my good 

qualified employees, are going to be looking for work in the commercial industry, and some of them who have security clearances 

that cannot afford to pay their bills, it will impact them as they 

come up for reinvestigation, because as part of reinvestigation for 

your security clearance, you cannot be late on any bills, and most 

of my contracts have security or TS-level clearances. So I am really 

concerned about that. 

My last point is I am really concerned that I will be forced to 

close my business if a resolution is not reached quickly. Myself and 

other small businesses may be forced to close our doors. And my 

fear is also if one company closes its door, then a handful of folks 
31 

are impacted. If numerous companies are forced out of business, 

then it becomes the large business take over, which puts the small 

business exactly where we were before, where we fought over the 

last ten years for me personally to get to. 

In conclusion, we have sacrificed, struggled, and slowly make 

progress as a woman-owned small business and the shutdown is 

threatening to destroy all our progress, wiping away ten years of 

sacrifice. I am an IT expert. I can always go back to work. It is not 

something I want to do, but if that is what I have to do, I will do 

it to feed my family. 

To me, it is disturbing that the government has caused SERDI 

and other small businesses to lose employees and significantly impacted our revenue. How can we make up for the loss of revenue? 

How are our employees going to pay their mortgages and feed their 

families? And, lastly, how are small businesses supposed to survive? 

I agree with the rest of the panel members. I do not care about 

Democrat or Republican. I just want a solution and I am praying 

to God that one comes very quickly. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Poole follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Mr. Singh. 

STATEMENT OF BARUN SINGH, FOUNDER AND CHIEF 

TECHNOLOGY OFFICER, WEGOWISE, INC. 

Mr. SINGH. Thank you, Chairwoman Landrieu and members of 

the committee for the opportunity to speak today. I am here as 

founder and CEO of WegoWise, a Boston-based web start-up that 

is helping solve one of our nation’s most pressing challenges by improving the efficiency of the buildings in which we live and work. 

In just over three years, WegoWise has grown from idea to industry leader, with 32 employees and contractors. We help organizations across the country identify inefficient buildings and uncover 

savings, which creates new jobs for auditors and contractors, reduces expenses for building owners, and increases tenant comfort. 

By drastically reducing energy consumption, we are also supporting 

our nation’s energy independence goals. 

Many of our customers manage market-rate buildings in the private sector. At the same time, we are very proud to have helped 

our home State of Massachusetts identify over $300 million of potential energy savings in affordable housing. We also help local 

governments better understand their utility expenses. That includes the City of New Orleans and Los Angeles. 

We are proud participants in the American system of entrepreneurship. It has allowed a company like ours, with innovation and 

hard work, to thrive and to transform society for the better. We are 

a mission-driven for-profit enterprise, meaning we believe business 

should provide meaningful value in a self-sustaining way. 

Our model of innovation relies, however, on a supportive public 

sector. Government has been vital to the efficiency industry. Every 

American household knows the value of buying an Energy Star appliance. The same thing is happening today with buildings themselves. The EPA’s Portfolio Manager tool provides a mechanism for 

buildings to receive Energy Star scores. This drives the construction of more efficient buildings and investment in efficiency retrofits. The government is essentially helping the market work the 

way it was meant to work, by presenting consumers with clear information and thus catalyzing economic activity. 

The shutdown has prevented the EPA from offering its Energy 

Star services. Anyone relying on these tools is being forced to defer 

decisions regarding building efficiency upgrades. These upgrades 

create local jobs that cannot be outsourced. These are the jobs of 

the new economy, and building efficiency can add a trillion dollars 

and create 3.3 million job years to the economy. The shutdown is 

directly slowing the growth of this vital sector of our economy. 

We have invested significant resources into creating technology 

to integrate with Portfolio Manager. We have had to delay one contract and have been fielding concerned calls from current and potential customers that may result in further delays. For companies 

like ours, the investments we make in product development, marketing, and sales come from a very limited set of resources and we 

are sensitive to unexpected changes in cash flow. 

Entrepreneurs and small business owners already face tremendous odds, and government has a role to play in fostering success. 
36 

The current shutdown adds a significant amount of uncertainty to 

the market, which increases our risk and makes it more difficult 

for us to grow our business. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Singh follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you, Mr. Singh. I am glad that Senator 

Shaheen came in right before your testimony. She has been the 

leader on building efficiency here in the Senate. We recognize her 

leadership and thank you very much. 

Ms. Robertson. 

STATEMENT OF SALLY B. ROBERTSON, PRESIDENT AND 

CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, BUSINESS FINANCE GROUP, INC. 

Ms. ROBERTSON. Thank you, Chairman Landrieu. I wanted 

to—— 

Chair LANDRIEU. You have to press your button and speak into 

your mic, if you would. Lean forward. There you go. 

Ms. ROBERTSON. Sorry. Thank you very much, Chairman 

Landrieu. It is a pleasure to be here today and I thank you and 

the members for the opportunity to speak. I also wanted to let you 

know how much we appreciate the example that you have set in 

this committee for the rest of Congress in working together and 

compromising to bring back 504 debt refinancing, which is in the 

best interest of small business. 

The impact of—well, first, I am Sally Robertson. I am the President of Business Finance Group. We are a nonprofit Certified Development Company providing 504 financing in Maryland, D.C., 

Virginia, and West Virginia. I am also the Chairman of the National Association of Development Companies and our 270 CDC 

members do 95 percent of the 504 loan volume in the country. 

The government shutdown has had a very large impact on 504 

lending. Clearly, there are no new loan applications being approved. One thing that is often overlooked is that we are fixed 

asset financing, and so borrowers enter into contracts to buy fixed 

assets. Those borrowers have deposits at risk. If they are unable 

to meet settlement deadlines because they do not have financing in 

place or because other post-approval documents have not been approved by SBA, they are at risk of losing not only those deposits, 

but all the feasibility costs that they have poured into these 

projects. And to say these borrowers are also expanding their businesses and they are losing opportunities for growth if we are not 

able to get their applications released so that they can close on 

their transactions. Additionally, 504 businesses create jobs and 

none of those jobs are going to be created. 

We fund our projects through a bond sale process. Should the 

Federal Government default on its obligations, we have no idea 

what value that full faith and credit guarantee of a U.S. agency 

will be in the marketplace. We risk much higher rates for our borrowers forward into the future, and we are very concerned that our 

November bond sale may not occur if SBA does not return to work 

very shortly. Our deadline is now for SBA to be moving packages 

forward into the bond sale process. Hundreds of loans are already 

closed on a nationwide basis in anticipation that sale will occur. 

Should it not occur, those loans are going to have to be re-closed 

at somebody’s cost, unfortunate that small businesses would have 

to pay for it. 

And then we run the risk of what is the perception of our bank 

partners if they do not receive their paydown in a timely fashion? 

Are they going to charge small businesses more for interim loans 
42 

in the future? And if investors feel our sale is not a dependable, 

timely product, are they going to continue to buy it at the same 

rates? I think we are looking at much higher costs for our small 

businesses, and that would be a tragedy, I think, for a 504 program 

which is so valuable for small businesses that are expanding and 

creating jobs. 

Thank you very much for the opportunity to talk today and I 

would be happy to answer questions. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Robertson follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you very much, Ms. Robertson, for that 

detailed explanation of how this program affects so many entities. 

Mr. Ford. 

STATEMENT OF ANTWAYNE FORD, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF 

EXECUTIVE OFFICER, ENLIGHTENED, INC. 

Mr. FORD. Good afternoon and thank you very much, Madam 

Chair and committee. 

Hello. My name is Antwayne Ford, President and CEO of Enlightened, Incorporated, as well as the Chair of the D.C. Chamber 

of Commerce and on the President’s Council for the U.S. Black 

Chambers. Enlightened is a technology firm specializing in 

cybersecurity, system integration, and software development, and 

have realized great growth over the last 14 years, serving primarily 

the Federal Government. I am here to tell you how this government shutdown and the fight over the debt ceiling are continually 

causing company layoffs and reduce production on government contracts. 

As a small business owner, I am deeply impacted by the events 

that have unfolded over the last two weeks that have forced our 

employees and their families to cope with the realities of this government shutdown. They now know what it means to have their 

jobs and financial security placed in jeopardy by events that are 

wholly outside of their control. 

As a result of the shutdown, Enlightened has made difficult 

choices in the way we manage our human capital. Permanent layoffs due to government shutdowns have become commonplace, forcing us to say goodbye to some of our best and brightest employees. 

We were forced to immediately furlough two employees due to the 

loss of work at the Department of Justice and another 25 in the 

14 days since October 1. Those not presently affected by the layoff 

live with the real danger of losing their jobs. Meanwhile, they 

watch their elected representatives battle one another in a war of 

uncompromising positions. Not only do I fear losing established 

personnel, but my company faces an equally daunting challenge of 

attracting new talent to a field in a government that has become 

an increasingly unreliable employer for us. 

There are long-term effects to this temporary shutdown. In the 

short- and long-term, Enlightened will suffer. With 70 percent of 

our workforce sourced from the Federal Government, it has become 

impossible to depend on a reliable stream of solicitations from Federal agencies that may or may not have been canceled, reopened, 

or canceled again, or postponed indefinitely. Our existing contracts 

where work has been praised face the real possibility of not being 

renewed. Enlightened cannot afford to wait and wait and wait 

while our government leaders in Congress negotiate our livelihoods. 

Enlightened is providing services to several Federal agencies. 

However, one customer in particular, OPM, is critical to my success. Enlightened is assisting OPM with modernizing systems that 

provide background checks for Federal Government employees and 

their contractors. To date, this contract has not been affected, but 

if it is stopped, Enlightened would not be able to recover. This 

could be the death blow for the company. 
50 

As an IT and cybersecurity service provider, I am concerned. Several agencies have made contingencies for some productive measures during government shutdown. Their plans call for heavily 

scaled down their IT teams to maintain and manage and protect 

government IT infrastructure. Contingencies are seldom as strong 

as the original. 

Agencies that we do do work for, such as the Department of Veterans Affairs, Health and Human Services, HUD, and OPM, have 

had layoffs to cyber professionals that protect the nation’s infrastructure. Most other Federal agencies are expected to have a similar handful of IT security staff and other essential personnel to run 

the infrastructure and this is a problem. 

With the potential that the government will default on our Federal debt, Enlightened would not receive any payments from our 

Federal contractors, accounting for 70 percent of our business. In 

turn, we would not be able to pay our employees, our bills, nor our 

line of credit. And just like Congress elected to shut down the government, we, too, would be forced to shut down and go out of business with no financial guarantee available to recover. Small businesses cannot borrow when there is no collateral. 

I am here today testifying before you representing the effect your 

decisions are having on everyday hard working Americans and 

small business owners like myself and countless other Americans. 

We have to end this before the backbone of America breaks. This 

backbone is small business owners. The backbone is entrepreneurs. 

The backbone is hard working Americans. Let us put America back 

to work. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Ford follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Mr. Withee. 

STATEMENT OF CHARLES WITHEE, PRESIDENT, THE 

PROVIDENT BANK 

Mr. WITHEE. Yes. Thank you, Chairwoman Landrieu, and thank 

you to my Senator Shaheen for having me here today. I am Chuck 

Withee, the President of the Provident Bank, a commercial community bank up in New Hampshire and Massachusetts. We, too, are 

a small business—we are 130 employees—so we share in the concerns, the deep concerns of the small businesses around the table 

here. 

And the 7(a) loan program and the 504 loan program are the 

backbone of what we do at the Provident Bank. Oftentimes, very 

promising businesses come forward, have a lot of promise but do 

not have all of the attributes that traditional lending serves and we 

use these programs to help them get over the finish line. 

Currently, we have 12 loans representing $2.7 million in limbo, 

just like Mr. Leh had indicated, very similar stories and very tragic 

stories because these companies are not large corporate America 

that have lots of cash on the balance sheet to sustain. They live 

day-to-day. They wonder how they are going to make payroll. They 

wonder how they are going to keep the lights on. And we are there 

to try to help with that. This government shutdown is impeding 

that process. 

I am also very concerned about the shutdown temporary move 

forward. I hope it happens. I hope it happens today. But I am concerned, also, with what is coming up. February is the next deadline. This creates a lot of uncertainty. There are a lot of people that 

are affected by this. That uncertainty is going to affect that in the 

future, and you can rest assured that that uncertainty is going to 

have an impact on our economy given the size of small business in 

that economy, and that is really why I am here today, folks. Thank 

you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Withee follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you very much, particularly focusing on 

the uncertainty, which is very important. 

Mr. Paul. 

STATEMENT OF RONALD D. PAUL, CHAIRMAN, EAGLE 

BANCORP, INC. 

Mr. PAUL. Chairwoman Landrieu and distinguished members of 

the committee, good afternoon. My name is Ron Paul, no relationship to Senator Paul nor Congressman Paul. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. PAUL. I am Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of 

EagleBank, a well capitalized, profitable $3.5 billion community 

bank headquartered in nearby Bethesda, Maryland. We are a very 

active lender with strong loan growth of 21 percent in 2012, a $3 

billion loan portfolio, and we pride ourselves in having an average 

loan size of under $2 million. Our mission is focused on lending to 

small businesses. 

We are very active in SBA lending. We are a preferred SBA lender and rank number one among banks headquartered in metropolitan Washington, D.C. Nationwide, SBA lenders close nearly $100 

million in loans every day. Right now, the program is frozen. At 

EagleBank, we have over 30 new SBA loans in process totaling $37 

million, but we cannot proceed because the SBA has closed its 

doors. And when they reopen, there will be uncertainty as to when 

loans will be ready to close, since we do not know how big of a 

backlog there will be. 

Among others, government contractors and their subcontractors 

and vendors are not being paid. If you are a small business, a janitorial service or an IT consultant, you typically do not have capital 

and reserves to carry your employees and overhead. The result: 

Closed offices and laid off workers. 

The furloughed workers at a security company and the restaurant across from a government center and each of their employees just lost all their income. They no longer have disposable dollars to go to the local hardware store or local restaurant or local 

clothing store. Remember, this lost income can never be recovered. 

The government leases millions of square feet from the private sector. If the shutdown continues into November, these rent checks 

will not come in, but the developer’s loan payments are still due, 

potentially resulting in loan defaults and credit quality issues 

throughout the banking industry. 

Another consequence of the shutdown is the impact on nonprofit 

organizations. Because of the shutdown’s tourniquet on funding, 

one of EagleBank’s customers, a youth center in the District of Columbia, had to furlough 90 of its staff of 145 people. The ripple effect is enormous. That is just dealing with the shutdown. 

Now add all the potential consequences of not raising the debt 

ceiling in time. If Congress does not act within days, interest rates 

will go up, resulting in the likelihood of small businesses being less 

able to borrow money and at higher costs. Investment values will 

come down. Confidence will be severely shaken. And the nationwide uncertainty resulting from any short-term ‘‘kick the can down 

the road’’ and non-legislation will be devastating. Consumer confidence, already shaken, will dramatically fall. 
59 

At EagleBank, we have let our customers and the local community at large know we will work to help them in their short-term 

cash flow needs, but every customer we work with who does not 

make a loan payment timely results in us having less cash to lend 

to our other customers. As interest rates rise because of concerns 

over the stability to the United States, the value of our investment 

portfolio and, therefore, our ability to borrow to fund loans, goes 

down. 

It is our hope, for the sake of small businesses and their workers 

nationwide, the fuel of the nation’s economy, that Congress can 

find a way to reopen the government and enable people to get back 

to work. 

Thank you for the opportunity to speak today and I look forward 

to any further questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Paul follows:] 
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Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you very much. 

I am going to start with one question and throw it out, and if 

you want to be recognized, just stand up your placard, and then I 

am going to ask each colleague to take a turn, as well. 

Let me acknowledge Senator Hagan and Senator Shaheen that 

are here. We did opening statements. Would you prefer to wait for 

the questions? Okay. 

You know, some of our colleagues—first of all, let me say that 

all of your testimony was very, I think, critical to the immediate 

issue at hand and very compelling, giving me and the members 

that are here and others that are watching a great deal to think 

about. 

I have heard some people in Washington describe the government shutdown as a pinprick to the economy. I did not hear that 

today from any of you. Would any of you like to comment and just 

elaborate and underscore that what is happening is a great deal 

more than a pinprick, or how would you describe what is happening to you if it is not a pinprick? 

Go ahead, Mr. Griffall. 

Mr. GRIFFALL. I would be happy to address that. I have seen a 

number of studies, and particularly the tourism industry is a major 

driver in 44 of the 50 States, and as an economic driver, the U.S. 

Travel Association released a new analysis that shows that this 

pinprick is now costing this travel industry $152 million per day, 

and that is growing very quickly, and it is affecting as many as 

450,000 Americans who have jobs in this industry. 

The National Tour Association did a quick survey after it started 

and showed that effects were felt in all but four of the States by 

their 3,000 members, and these effects are dramatic, immediate, 

and unrecoverable. 

But more importantly, this type of manmade crisis does create 

immediate effects for small businesses and all of their employees, 

but it creates long-term effects which everybody has talked to here 

that can even further depress the travel market going into the future. Travel is our number one services export, and we have a 

number of emerging markets, such as China and Brazil, that are 

increasingly coming to America. We have finally started a Brand 

USA Program. This is about two years old and it is just starting 

to make an effect. This will have long-term, lasting negative effects 

on all of those markets, and certainly all of the thousands of small 

businesses that are parts of this industry. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Leh, how would you describe it? Does it feel 

like a pinprick to you? 

Mr. LEH. No, it is definitely not a pinprick. I think what is really 

important to convey as a small business owner is you—when you 

go and borrow large sums of money, you put up and collateralize 

everything that you own in the world. Everything that I worked for 

my entire life is behind that loan. With the uncertainty that is 

being created right now, if interest rates go up one percent on the 

size loan that I am dealing with, over the life of my loan, that is 

$76,000. That is an employee. That may be me not being able to 

cover the bank note. That may be me losing my house. That is just 

one percentage point. 
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So, we go through this game in Washington where every time it 

is time to decide whether or not we are going to raise the debt ceiling, we argue about it. It is ridiculous and it has an immediate impact on our ability to not lose everything that we have put forth 

and risked. 

So, in my particular situation right now where I had an excellent 

program to finance, if the interest rates go up two percent, I may 

not be able to do it anymore. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you, Mr. Leh. Excellent. 

Ms. ROBERTSON. We are going to do this quickly and then I am 

going to turn it over and then get Mr. Paul, and then we will ask 

some more questions. 

Ms. ROBERTSON. Sure. Very quickly, I am at ground zero in 

terms of the government shutdown, being right here in the heart 

of the D.C. and the metropolitan area. We see in the newspaper 

yesterday two large defense contractors announced that they were 

going to reduce their upcoming layoffs to 5,000 people. Those people are not going to get back pay once they are gone. They are 

going to have to pay for benefits out-of-pocket. They are not going 

to have money to spend on day care, on entertainment. All of that 

trickles down to our Main Street businesses. 

And the reality is that the conversation has been going on for 

months about the shutdown, about the problems, about the debt 

ceiling. CEOs have been taking that into account for months. They 

have been making quiet cutbacks. They have been making layoffs. 

They have been making furloughs. So our economy has been suffering for months in this particular area. 

Our lending activity is down 30 percent from last year. That is 

a very large number. That is small businesses that are not buying 

buildings, that are not buying equipment to expand, that are not 

going to create jobs. 

So we think that this is much bigger than a small pinprick. We 

think it is a very major problem. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Mr. Paul. 

Mr. PAUL. Thank you. I do not also believe it is a pinprick. I 

think it is the beginning of a hemorrhage. I think that what we 

have experienced over the last couple of weeks, the number of 

phone calls that the bank has received from hundreds and many, 

many of our borrowers, making sure that they have their lines of 

credit that are available to them, has resulted in the bank making 

sure that we have our own liquidity that is available to us to continue to fund these lines of credit. 

I think that if you fast-forward this, if we should get this passed 

through February, what is going to happen between now and February, I think, is going to be equally as ugly as what has happened 

over the past couple of weeks. We have a situation right now that 

the consumer is going to be sitting and saying, you know what? We 

are not going to go out for dinner. We are not going to go to the 

movies. We are not going to go to a show. We are not going to buy 

a house. New home sales will dramatically be impacted because 

you will have people over the next three months that are going to 

be so paranoid about what is going to happen. 
70 

I think it is an absolute embarrassment to this country. I think 

that the trickle-down effect has yet to be felt. I think the economy 

that is finally starting to get on its feet will be devastated as a result of this kicking the can down the road. Thank you. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Let me get the other three of you, but about the 

pinprick, stay on that, but also talk about some people around here 

are saying, well, we will pay the Federal workers back pay and 

that will supposedly solve the problem or make the problem go 

away. So when you answer this, talk about that because I think 

that is missing a big point, that some of your small businesses, 

they are not going to be in that payback discussion. I do not think 

they are included in that. 

Ms. Smith, is that what you are hearing? 

Ms. SMITH. Yes, I am hearing that, as well, and yes, it is more 

than a pinprick. We have companies decreasing in revenue. We 

have many small businesses that may have to close their doors. 

Small businesses, we are the lifeline of the economy and the key 

to recovery. So, yes, it is definitely more than a pinprick. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Withee, and then Mr. Ford, and then I am 

going to go to the others for questions. 

Mr. WITHEE. Yes, I would agree it is much more than a pinprick 

unless it is a very large pin. 

[Laughter.] 

The majority of the employment in this country is by small businesses like the people we have around this table and like many of 

the clients I have at the bank, and two-thirds of the economy is 

consumer-driven. It was mentioned just a moment ago about the 

uncertainty creating problems with that part of the economy, and 

I believe that is real and I believe that is large. So this really is 

not a pinprick. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Ford. 

Mr. FORD. I certainly agree, and to your point, Senator, small 

businesses will not be paid for the work that we have lost now. 

That is lost revenue. That is going away. That will not return. If 

we look at contracts that we have, as soon as we do go back to 

work, those contracts will have to be modified because those contracts have deliverables that are time-based, so that means those 

contracts need to be modified which further delays the process because have to get new contracts, and again, that will not be paid. 

If you are an 8(a) company—we are a graduated 8(a) company— 

if you are an 8(a) company, that time that is lost is lost. You will 

not get that changed. So if I am an 8(a) company, I would be concerned because that time is not coming back. 

If we look at the concept of a pinprick, we are talking about 

when we had to lay people off and you have to look in the eyes of 

somebody that you know you have a family—I know about the kids 

of the people that we had to lay off. These are people that came 

to our corporate picnics. That is not a pinprick. 

When you are talking about people who may have to go on assistance of a government that they do not trust anymore, they also lose 

confidence in small businesses, which are the innovators of America. That is not a pinprick. 

We look at the fact that, I think as you talked about, my line of 

credit is based on the creditworthiness of myself and my partners. 
71 

Everything I have had over the 14 years has been put into this 

business. My home has been put into this business. That is what 

my banking friend here used as collateral. If I go out of business, 

everything that my three kids that I am working for goes away immediately. This is not a pinprick. 

Chair LANDRIEU. And nobody is going to reimburse you for this. 

Mr. FORD. No. 

Chair LANDRIEU. There is no bill to reimburse—— 

Mr. FORD. There is no bill for this at all. 

Chair LANDRIEU. All right. Senator Heitkamp. 

Senator HEITKAMP. I am struck because we are talking not only 

about the shutdown, but we are also talking about this uncertainty 

about the debt limit and what interest rates—how they all affect 

all of you. 

Now, on top of hearing that it is a pinprick, I am sure you have 

also heard that there are a number of amateur economists out 

there who have been telling us all that the debt limit can be managed by simply paying our interest. The debt limit—those are false 

days and we do not need to worry about it. We recently had a hearing in the Banking Committee where we heard from the Realtors 

who told us that they believe that if we miss this default deadline, 

home mortgages will go up at least one percent, if not more, and 

we are already seeing our Treasuries being discounted, maybe as 

high as almost 70 basis points. 

And so my question is to all of you that we include in this discussion, as you have, about what the debt limit means and this constant uncertainty, and I really would appreciate comments on the 

proposal, which a lot of you have referenced, of only going out to 

February as opposed to looking at a long-term deal and really encourage you to encourage us to look at something much longer than 

that to give you the certainty that you need. And so anyone who 

wants to comment on the debt limit, I would appreciate that. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Singh. 

Mr. SINGH. Being that we are in a start-up world on the Web 

where things are venture-backed, uncertainty is a part of what we 

sign up for, in some sense. But we do assume that the full faith 

and credit of the U.S. Government is something we do not have to 

be uncertain about. The decisions that investors make, and the decisions that the capital markets make, reflect on what start-ups get 

founded. They reflect on whether they happen in this country or 

whether they happen somewhere else where there is more confidence. 

I find it to be—especially when this is manufactured crisis leading into manufactured crisis, that these are things that we can control. It is somewhat callous, I suppose, to call it a pinprick to the 

people who are directly affected; whether that means they are on 

government assistance and they cannot be part of the economy because they do not have any income anymore or whether they get 

laid off from their job. 

But, also, further down the line, all those people are engaged— 

all these small businesses are directly affected by the products that 

other small businesses are producing. So there really is this domino 

effect where it is not just the one business shutting down. It is the 

five or six other businesses down the chain that it affects. 
72 

Chair LANDRIEU. Ms. Firestone. 

Ms. FIRESTONE. Thank you. I think my comments are more related to the short-term fix. My company was awarded a very large 

contract in October and, as a result, it is expected that we will hire 

a lot of people, which is great for the economy, but do I have the 

confidence to hire new staff knowing in three months we face another shut down, then what happens to a business I have worked 

16 years to grow? We have a large payroll and hire doctors, nurses, 

and analysts. There is a lot of competition for that talent. And now 

I am faced with having to hire, which is a really good problem, but 

on the other hand, how are we supposed to handle that in three 

months if we have to let them go? 

Chair LANDRIEU. And, Ms. Firestone, just for the record, what 

would you pay a doctor or some of your medical professionals, like 

the range of what you are offering people in that contract? 

Ms. FIRESTONE. Our average salary for our nursing staff, we do— 

we have nurses across the country—is somewhere in the range of 

$70,000 is an average salary, and the physicians, as I—it is probably twice that. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Unbelievable. 

Mr. Griffall. 

Mr. GRIFFALL. As I have stated many times, it is just hard to 

overestimate the pain this causes to a lot of people. But if we do 

not assure the American people, and particularly the rest of the 

world, that this is not going to be a recurring event, we will have 

absolutely no confidence in traveling to America or even dealing 

with America if we get a little farther than that, and that has been 

a giant issue. 

Haybina Hao, who sells tourism to China—she used to be an employee of mine, she now works for the National Tour Association— 

she said, ‘‘compared to other countries that utilize creative ways to 

lure Chinese tourists, the U.S. shutdown will shatter the confidence of international travel companies, and that has been shown 

again and again, that when we have bad events here, it creates 

long long-term effects that will obviously affect all of us.’’ 

But most importantly, we need to assure everybody that this is 

not something that is going to continue, because if we have to do 

that every single time we go through this process, we will have no 

confidence to buy anything in America, but more importantly, travel is a seasonal business. Most of the companies I deal with, which 

are all small businesses, make their money very quickly in three 

or four months. Those businesses have to have that profit in order 

to make it to the next year. So not only are we not going to be paid 

back wages, these companies may not survive to the next year 

when they are already planning for that travel season. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Well, I know there is never a good time to go 

through what we are going through, but you can think about the 

particular months of November and December—October, November, and December—being very substantial retail months, which 

everyone is aware of. You do not need a special degree to understand that. And that is the season that we are coming to. 

Let me get Mr. Withee and then we are going to turn to Senator 

Shaheen for her question. 
73 

Mr. WITHEE. Okay. Mr. Singh is absolutely right. Investors and 

bankers make decisions on certainty and predictability, and you 

can just walk down the hall and talk to your friends at the FDIC 

and the OCC if you want clarification on that. But before the shutdown, our bank, like Mr. Paul’s bank, experienced record loan 

growth, and we are a commercial lender, really, by trade, and that 

means that small business had a lot of confidence and wanted to 

invest and wanted to borrow to do that investment. 

I am very concerned about this temporary fix, because that confidence is going to go away. And what has started to become a real 

energized recovery is going to be stalled and, I fear, worse than 

that, that you can lull back into recessionary times, which would 

be really unfortunate because I heard earlier the term ‘‘manufactured,’’ and this is a manufactured problem, and that is too bad 

and I would like to see it end. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Senator Shaheen. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you very much, Chair Landrieu, and 

thank you for holding this hearing, and thank you to each and 

every one of you who are here representing your businesses and 

the small business communities in your States. 

I have heard from so many small business people in New Hampshire, which has 96 percent of our employers are considered small 

businesses, who are experiencing the same kinds of challenges that 

you have talked about today. I want to especially recognize Chuck 

Withee, who is the President of Provident Bank, which has four 

branches in New Hampshire and does a great job of lending and 

participating in the SBA lending program, so thank you for being 

here, as well. 

I want to make a point of saying to all of you that I think everyone of us here are as frustrated and upset about the irresponsible 

and reckless behavior on the part of some members of Congress 

that have led us to this point. We all believe we need to start the 

government back up immediately, that we need to put in place a 

long-term solution to raise the debt ceiling so that we can reassure 

not only people in this country but around the world that America 

is going to pay its bills, and that we should end these manufactured crises and get on with the business of governing the country. 

So please know that every one of us here is working toward that 

end and very distressed, as I know all of you are. 

Chuck, I want to go back to your initial testimony where you 

talked about some of the loans that are being held up because of 

the shutdown. Do you also have new borrowers who are coming in 

the door who you cannot help? And when you look at the kinds of 

projects that they are looking for help on, do you expect those will 

be able to continue after the shutdown, that you will be able to 

help them, or are we looking at a long-term impact for the people 

that you are working with? 

Mr. WITHEE. Well, that is a great question. We are seeing continual need for the SBA loan program. Just because of the shutdown does not mean people were not coming in after. The numbers 

I gave you were actually in the process and were stalled. There are 

a number of folks looking at business acquisition opportunities, 

permanent working capital and equipment that are stalled, as well. 
74 

What do I see? I see perhaps some of those still coming through, 

but others not, because day in and day out, if it is for permanent 

working capital and weeks on end go by, opportunity goes by, as 

well. 

I also worry about one in particular that is the purchase of another business, owners that are retiring. They could sell out to a 

large concern. If they sell out to a large concern, then the employment goes away, basically. But if they sell out to another like-kind 

small business, they are likely to keep the employees. Well, you 

know, a purchase and sale can lapse and renegotiation can occur 

and then all of the sudden, the game is changed for both small 

businesses, and everybody around this table knows what I am talking about. So, you lose credibility if you cannot deliver, right, so 

that is a big problem. 

Also, we embarked on a microloan program. In fact, we hired a 

specialist to take this on and was literally about to launch. And it 

is really $10,000 to $100,000 loans for the micro small businesses 

of the world, and everybody around this table knows, at some 

point, you were there. And we had a very abbreviated process. We 

were about to launch it literally, literally, this week, and we have 

stalled that because it is based on the use of the 7(a) loan program. 

And that is real. That is a real issue. And that is problematic. Do 

I see that coming back, Senator Shaheen? I do, because we really 

want it, but it is predicated on the U.S. Government getting back 

to work and the SBA loans being available. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you very much. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Senator Cardin. 

Senator CARDIN. Let me thank you all for your comments and 

putting a face on the issue. You hear the numbers, you hear the 

thousands of people and hundreds of thousands of people and millions of people, but until you can put a face on it so people can recognize it is their neighbors, it is their community that has been impacted, it makes it difficult. So, I would just urge you to—I would 

be interested to more of the specifics about those companies that 

have not been able to complete their loans and the impact it has 

on their economic growth and their future. 

You talk about consumer confidence, which is a driving force in 

our economy. There have been studies done that show that as a result of this manufactured crisis, consumer confidence has been 

more adversely affected than in any of our natural disasters, that 

is worse than the attack on our country on 9/11 as far as the consumer confidence issues. 

And the challenge here, and what I really want to get you engaged, is that, yes, we want to make sure government is open. We 

want to make sure we do not default on our obligations. But the 

best case scenario right now, knowing where we are on this date, 

is that we will work out some short-term solution keeping government open and paying our bills and to negotiate, hopefully, a budget agreement. If that happens, the pressure is going to remain on 

Congress to get a budget agreement so that we eliminate this 

short-term governance from crisis to crisis. Consumer confidence 

will only be restored if they believe that we have our act together 

here. 
75 

So, I would just urge you not to leave the debate later this week, 

if we are successful in getting government open and not defaulting 

on our debt, but to get engaged in the process of working out a 

budget agreement for this country. And I agree with those of you 

who said, look, you have got to come together, Democrats and Republicans. Democrats are not going to get their way. Republicans 

are not going to get their way. But those who say they will not 

compromise are the ones who are driving this country on the brink 

of disaster. We have got to be able to make the system work and 

compromise and get things done. So, I would just urge you to do 

this. 

Let me just reinforce the point that you made, Mr. Withee, in 

that the small company that will not get its microloan and may 

have discovered a new way of innovating in cybersecurity or a new 

way of innovating in the service industry, that is competitiveness 

that is forever lost in America. And that young scientist who might 

have gone into NIH and might have gotten an award this year, but 

because of the government shutdown that award was not coming, 

who chooses to go to a different field or a different country, that 

is lost forever in this country. So we have hurt ourselves. There is 

no question about the permanent damage that has been done to individual businesses and to the competitiveness of America. 

But we all have a responsibility to figure out a way to get beyond 

this. And as frustrating as it is for you, believe me, it is just as 

frustrating as it is for us. I agree with Senator Shaheen. I really 

do not understand how people could deny government staying open 

and paying our bills, why they would want to put that threat on 

America. But we are where we are. 

So, I guess my comment, if anyone wants to further identify the 

type of companies, I think that would be helpful. Put more of a face 

on this. Let us know the types of businesses who cannot get loans 

as a result of this and what that means in Rockville. Make it as 

personal as you can to your community. That would be helpful to 

us. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Paul. 

Mr. PAUL. First, thank you for all the great work that you do in 

our great State of Maryland. 

One topic that I think is important, as you have all heard from 

the small business owner, is that they have put up everything that 

they have in order to borrow those funds. Well, as we all know, in 

2008 and 2009, when the value of real estate plummeted, there 

was very little equity remaining in their homes. So now, which I 

believe will happen over the next few months, especially if we are 

just kicking a can down the road, consumer confidence is going to 

drop. The value of homes are going to go down and that home equity is going to dissipate. So what happens to that customer, what 

happens to that borrower, that is looking to start its own business, 

or maybe a current borrower that is currently looking for that SBA 

loan right now that does not have the equity in their home any 

longer? So, all of a sudden, that equity that they have always been 

able to leverage against, which is what this country has built itself 

upon, being able to borrow through the net worth of what you 

have, which is primarily your home, goes away. 
76 

So, I just believe, and I am not an economist, but I certainly 

speak to enough that I do believe, interest rates will go up. I think 

whatever appreciation we have seen in real estate values are not 

necessarily as a result of real estate values going up, but the fact 

that you have interest rates going down and, therefore, their ability 

to buy homes has increased. But when that equity drops and interest rates go up, I think that you will be back to a recessionary discussion in terms of the slowdown in our economy. 

And you are absolutely right. This is not a Democratic, this is 

not a Republican, issue. This is a U.S. issue. And I think that the 

embarrassment that we have caused ourselves, who knows whether 

or not the—we all know, listening to Chairman Bernanke in terms 

of how we artificially have dropped interest rates, where we have 

only been able to artificially drop interest rates because our international friends have been willing to buy our debt, are they going 

to continue to buy our debt under the current circumstances that 

we are in? I think not at these current levels. It is just not worth 

the risk. So, therefore, I think that will be one more reason that 

rates will go up. So, I think this is as much of a macro issue as 

it is a micro issue. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. Ms. Robertson and then Mr. Ford, 

in answer to Senator Cardin’s question about the face on people 

and the impact. 

Ms. ROBERTSON. Thank you. I have a couple of 504 stories that 

I would like to share with you. One is a borrower in Owings Mills, 

Maryland. They are constructing a new Holiday Inn Express, which 

will create 20 new jobs. They have been through all the due diligence for a new construction project. Their loan application is sitting at SBA waiting for approval. They cannot break ground. This 

is a business dependent on the tourist season. If they do not break 

ground shortly, their hotel will not be built in time to take advantage of the tourist system [sic]. They are going to be facing major 

losses their first year in business. That is certainly a very detrimental thing for small business. 

I have—a couple of my colleagues shared a couple of projects in 

Massachusetts. One is for an existing 504 borrower that is purchasing a second location for expansion. They are buying a building 

that is currently in foreclosure, so it is an unutilized building, so 

it is bringing a building back into the economy. They have posted 

a $149,000 deposit that they will lose along with the opportunity 

to buy the building at this discounted price and 25 new jobs that 

would have been created. 

We have another in Hyannis, Massachusetts, that is a printer 

buying a larger facility. He needs a new and bigger printing press 

that will not fit in his current space. He has got a $35,000 deposit 

on the building and another $35,000 deposit on the printing press. 

If he cannot close by November 4, he loses the building and then 

he has to cancel the order for the press because he has no place 

to put it. So, there is $70,000 he has lost, two jobs for his business, 

and those are good paying pressmen jobs. 

So, there is a lot of impact all over the country for small business 

owners. I mean, we can come up with a lot more stories, but it is 

just incredible. 
77 

Chair LANDRIEU. Well, and I would just add—and Mr. Ford, I 

will get you in a minute—the loss of the machinery and the buildings is heartwrenching and really devastating to families, but the 

loss of faith in their government, it is hard to measure. 

Mr. Ford. 

Mr. FORD. I will be quick on these other populations. Senator 

Cardin, you talked about technology. We are looking at programs, 

the STEM program, where we as a country are woefully behind in 

the technology area. Those programs are not being funded. People 

that are doing research and development in cybersecurity, where 

we want to protect our country, those companies are going out of 

business. 

Small Business Innovation and Research, SBIRs, that have done 

incredible things to advance this country are not being performed 

right now, and so those companies that are focused in those areas 

right now are companies that are going out of business. Companies 

that are moving the needle for this country are not being supported. Those are some of the faces that are being impacted by this 

country. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Senator Hagan. And we are going to close at 

four o’clock. We have about ten more minutes. 

Senator HAGAN. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

This is a very important meeting and I think everybody here, 

and I hope the nation, understands how we feel that this is a manufactured crisis that does not need to take place. And it is, from 

my standpoint, very disturbing to hear the stories, the real stories, 

that are happening across the United States each and every day, 

especially with our small businesses. 

Mr. Singh, your comment about the risk that you take in your 

business is a risk that you are willing to take, it is a calculated risk 

that there are going to be good days and bad days, but you should 

not have to calculate into that risk whether the United States Government is true with its full faith and credit of the debt and the 

borrowings that we owe. Like, that should not be a part of the 

equation at all or ever. 

And, Senator Landrieu, your comment, too, along with Mr. 

Griffall about, from a tourism standpoint, the seasons, you know, 

in North Carolina right now with the national parks closed, there 

is a report that has just come out that said the Great Smokey 

Mountains National Park, just the first ten days of that closing has 

affected $33 million in lost revenue just in the Western part of 

North Carolina. You add that to the fishing off the coast of North 

Carolina and the campgrounds that are closed in our national 

parks and the number of visitors that were going to go hike in our 

national parks, stay in the local hotels and restaurants, and they 

are not doing that. I mean, why go when all of those areas are 

closed for, once again, an irresponsible, manufactured crisis? This 

is not the floods in South Dakota or the snow. This is something 

that we should be able to take care of without a second thought. 

Ms. Smith, in North Carolina, we have the third-largest military 

footprint in the nation, and I know we have got about eight percent 

of our population is employed as civilians by the Department of Defense, 416,000 jobs. Following Secretary Hagel’s decision to recall 

most of these furloughed workers, do you have any understanding 
78 

of how the Department of Defense is providing guidance on any— 

on how they intend to proceed with new contracts that are currently in the pipeline? 

Ms. SMITH. I know some contracts are put on hold. We have a 

job fair on the 22nd of October and we are getting ready for some 

of these contracts that are going to come out real soon. I mean, 

then the furlough happened and we are just going to go ahead and 

just hold the resumes because there is nothing else we could do 

with them. So, a lot of contracts are definitely on hold. That is 

what we are getting. 

Senator HAGAN. And, once again, that has such a detrimental 

impact to small business. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Yes, it does. Does anybody want to comment on 

the Department of Defense, and I think the reason the Senator 

asked, not only is it important, of course, in her State, but it is 

such a huge buyer of goods and services. And what I think we are 

trying to get people to understand is even if every Federal worker 

came back to the Department of Defense, but if you do not give a 

signal to your contractors, which are your partners, I think, in 

this—in every department, but particularly in this department it is 

significant. Maybe, Mr. Ford, you want to comment, and then Mr. 

Paul, and then I am going to end with one question. 

Mr. FORD. Yes. I mean, I think—as you know, being a DOD contractor, the excellence that you need to provide is high. We are 

talking about protecting the warfighter. The uncertainty that we 

face is what services that they need to support. I mean, as we look 

at as warfare has changed, it is the reliance on people and technology and processes that DOD requires to ensure that our 

warfighters have the best that they have to offer. But when we talk 

to our DOD clients, they are telling us, you need to wait because 

we do not understand what we can do, and that is the most difficult part, because we have been engaged over the last year to 18 

months in what types of services we can offer to them and they obviously like various contractors—we would not be here—but they 

do not know how to proceed. 

I guess, as Mr. Singh said, we do not mind uncertainty, but it 

needs to be certain on one side or the other that you know you 

need the services, you do not know when, and you do not know 

how, and that is just very difficult—— 

Chair LANDRIEU. And we do not have a budget. 

Mr. FORD. And we do not have a budget. 

Chair LANDRIEU. We do not have a budget and have not had a 

long-term budget. 

Mr. Paul, and then I will get Senator Shaheen for a question—— 

Mr. PAUL. Just very quickly—— 

Chair LANDRIEU [continuing]. A comment. 

Mr. PAUL [continuing]. We all know how important the construction and homebuilding industries are to our economy, and the 

BRAC realignment that has taken place in the State of Maryland 

is enormous. We have a number of construction jobs that have 

taken place in areas throughout the State of Maryland, and what 

we see very quickly is a drop in draw requests that are happening 

from the homebuilders, because they are not being able to have the 

home construction and the home sales taking place. So, clearly, 
79 

right away, we are seeing in just over the past few weeks a drop 

in their draw requests due to demand in housing. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Senator Shaheen. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

I just wanted to make a point for all of you who are involved 

with government contracting with the Department of Defense that 

this is not the first hit that folks have gotten, that this comes on 

top of sequestration, those automatic cuts which have already had 

a huge impact in the State of New Hampshire. The defense base 

accounts for 17,000 employees, about $1 billion in payroll and economic activity. So it is a huge impact and this is really a double 

whammy. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Excellent point. 

I am going to end with two questions, very briefly, and the first 

to Mr. Singh, and if anyone else wants to chime in. I think a lot 

of people up here, besides thinking this is a pinprick that is not 

really hurting anyone, it will go away shortly and we will be back 

on the road, which I think you all have dispelled in your comments 

today very well, but a lot of people are also saying, well, shutting 

down the government is saving the taxpayer money. Could you 

please explain from your perspective how that is absolutely—this 

is not saving the taxpayer any money, talking about maybe a few 

of the businesses that you know that are now closed down that, if 

let to operate, could actually save the taxpayer money, but they are 

being held back. 

Mr. SINGH. Sure. I mean, I think, first off, if you are going to 

give back pay to all of the people you are just not letting work, 

then that is not really saving a whole lot of money. It is just making their lives harder. 

We work with building efficiency and we are seeing that for a lot 

of folks who might want to get loans to invest in improving their 

buildings, they are not going to be able to get loans so easily right 

now. They are not going to want to think about it. There is an entire network of small businesses that want to help improve efficiency in this country. If they cannot rely on small businesses, they 

cannot basically vitalize or revitalize this sector of the economy. 

You know, we rely on growth as our mechanism for moving things 

along. We cannot just say everything is okay as is, particularly in 

these areas where our country really needs improvement, not just 

from an economic perspective, but from an environmental perspective, from a social perspective. 

All we are doing is delaying our ability to implement change and 

to implement improvements. We have found that for folks we are 

talking to who would be interested in engaging with these sorts of 

activities you know, they might still be. We think they still will be 

in the future, but it is just on hold for a while and we do not really 

know for how long. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Ms. Firestone, let me get you to answer that 

and then I am going to end with one question to Mr. Griffall. 

Ms. FIRESTONE. Thank you. I think one of the ways, as you saw 

in my testimony, we save money every day that we work. We are 

in the business of efficiency. And just to kind of give a face to how 

deep this ripple effect is, we have injured civilian employees who 

are unable to get doctors to treat them because they do not trust 
80 

that they are going to be paid by the Federal Government. So, as 

long as we cannot implement our programs, we cannot do what we 

do best, save money, save lives, and improve productivity. 

I was just handed a statistic that astounds me as far as the pinprick. There was a study that just came out from the Economic Policy Institute that said that they are predicting about 900,000 were 

lost since 2009 as a result of sequestration and budget uncertainty. 

To me, that is not a pinprick. Thank you. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

And let me put into the record, and then I will end with one 

question, this is, ‘‘The Government Shutdown Could Be Expensive 

for Taxpayers.’’ It says, ‘‘The answer might not be what you expect. 

Many experts estimate the shutdown will cost, not save, taxpayers 

and the bill could be steep. The last government shutdown in 

1995–96 cost $1.4 billion. That is more than $2 billion in 2013 dollars.’’ 

Now, that is just a short-term shutdown. That is not the default 

on the good faith and credit of the United States. That is not the 

lack of a long-term budget. It is a very serious situation. 

Chair LANDRIEU. And my final question, because so much of the 

press has been focused about big cities, and around the beltway. 

Mr. Griffall, the testimony that I read in preparation for this hearing tells a little different story. It is not just the pain in big cities, 

in suburbs, but can you talk about rural areas and what you are 

seeing from some of your folks. And I think there was pretty riveting testimony about a small little town in Utah where they had, 

like, only 500 people in the town and they have already lost 60 percent of their revenues, the whole town. 

Mr. GRIFFALL. Unfortunately, that is an easy question to answer. 

Yes. This, I guess, if you looked only at big cities, you would certainly see a lot of government losses, and they are very real. A lot 

of people are hurting. 

But in the tourism industry, most of the beautiful, scenic areas 

in America are in rural areas and the gateway cities to the national parks, national monuments, and national recreation areas 

typically are built around these absolutely fantastic scenic areas, 

and there are many towns, and I will talk about out West at this 

point, but believe me, they extend all across the country, everywhere from Michigan to North Carolina to Louisiana, but there are 

many small towns very specifically hurt by this. 

And the town you referred to, Senator, was Springdale, Utah. 

They are literally on the edge of Zion National Park. Their entire 

business is, unless you are a retired Californian and moved there, 

is the entrance to the national park. And this national park was 

closed. 

I will make a real quick footnote that if you are wondering why 

the taxpayers are suffering from this, the taxpayers of Utah, 

through the good leadership of our Governor, Governor Herbert, 

have now donated $1.7 million or so to the Federal Government to 

open these national parks for ten days because it was recognized 

that many of these towns in Southern Utah have no other source 

of income. And they—I can go to Springdale, Utah, Tusayan, Arizona, right outside the Grand Canyon, you do not go there unless 

you are going to the Grand Canyon. And when they shut that road 
81 

through there, which they did after a couple of days, Tusayan, we 

as a small tour company had to cancel four different tour programs 

for the Best Western in Tusayan. That means that money will 

never be recovered by them. Nobody else was coming there to take 

those rooms. 

Moab, Utah, I talked to Marian DeLay. She is the Director of the 

Travel Council there and she did her own informal survey. They 

have 500 businesses in Grand County, Utah, that are tourism-related, and those are all small businesses, and she estimated in the 

first ten days of this shutdown they lost $10 million in revenue. 

Now, these are small businesses and they will not recover that. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Small businesses in small towns very focused, 

very focused—— 

Mr. GRIFFALL. Absolutely. Mariposa, California—it goes on and 

on. There are plenty of them. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Well, thank you all. Our time has come to an 

end. I really, again, appreciate the members. 

Senator, do you just want to add? 

Senator SHAHEEN. Well, I was just going to pick up on what Mr. 

Griffall said about Zion National Park, because we have a small 

business in New Hampshire called New Hampshire Gold which is 

a maple syrup company. They have four employers [sic]. They have 

their products in the store at the entrance to Mount Zion and they 

are very concerned about the lack of revenue because of the shutdown of the park. So—— 

Mr. GRIFFALL. Well, and shutting down New Hampshire in October—— 

Senator SHAHEEN. Is also a big concern. 

Mr. GRIFFALL [continuing]. Is pretty obviously a very, very difficult thing. 

Senator SHAHEEN. But, as everybody has pointed out, it is not 

just the immediate effect. It is that ripple effect that goes across 

the economy—— 

Mr. GRIFFALL. Across the economy. 

Senator SHAHEEN [continuing]. That is really at stake here. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Your voices have been very important for the 

businesses you represent and a very important sector of our economy. Thank you very much for giving your time and your effort 

and your thought. 

This record will remain open for two weeks. I am hoping the government will be open in two weeks to receive this testimony, and 

our committee will continue to work where we can. 

Thank you, and the meeting is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 4:10 p.m., the committee was adjourned.] 

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