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S. HRG. 112–884 

OVERSIGHT OF THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF 

INVESTIGATION 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

May 16, 2012 

Serial No. J–112–76 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

( 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont, Chairman 

HERB KOHL, Wisconsin 

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California 

CHUCK SCHUMER, New York 

DICK DURBIN, Illinois 

SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island 

AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota 

AL FRANKEN, Minnesota 

CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware 

RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut 

CHUCK GRASSLEY, Iowa 

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah 

JON KYL, Arizona 

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama 

LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina 

JOHN CORNYN, Texas 

MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

BRUCE A. COHEN, Chief Counsel and Staff Director 

KOLAN DAVIS, Republican Chief Counsel and Staff Director 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS 

Page 

Grassley, Hon. Chuck, a U.S. Senator from the State of Iowa ............................ 3 

Leahy, Hon. Patrick J., a U.S. Senator from the State of Vermont .................... 1 

prepared statement .......................................................................................... 42 

WITNESSES 

Witness List ............................................................................................................. 41 

Mueller, Robert S. III, Director Federal Bureau of Investigation, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, DC ....................................................................... 5 

prepared statement .......................................................................................... 44 

QUESTIONS 

Questions submitted by Senators Patrick Leahy, Charles Schumer, Chuck 

Grassley, and Lindsey Graham for Hon. Robert S. Mueller III ....................... 57 

ANSWERS 

Responses of Robert S. Mueller III, to questions submitted by Senators Leahy, 

Schumer, Grassley, and Graham ........................................................................ 64 

MISCELLANEOUS SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD 

Durbin, Hon. Richard J., a U.S. Senator from the State of Illinois, March 

27, 2012, letter ..................................................................................................... 78 

Mueller, Robert S. III, Director Federal Bureau of Investigation, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, DC., April 17, 2012, letter ................................. 81 

Federal Bureau of Investigation, Counterterrorism Training Material Review . 83 

(1) 

OVERSIGHT OF THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF 

INVESTIGATION 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 16, 2012 

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, 

Washington, D.C. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:06 a.m., in Room 

SD–226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Patrick J. Leahy, 

Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Leahy, Kohl, Feinstein, Schumer, Durbin, 

Whitehouse, Klobuchar, Coons, Blumenthal, Grassley, Hatch, Kyl, 

Graham, and Lee. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. PATRICK J. LEAHY, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF VERMONT 

Chairman LEAHY. These photographers are all good people, I 

have been told by my son-in-law, who used to work with them. Of 

course, I have a certain amount of jealousy because they have the 

job that I really want to have, except that they are a lot better at 

it than I would be. So I had to take the Senate as a second choice. 

Senator Grassley, Senator Hatch, Senator Klobuchar, and Senator Coons are here, and we can begin. 

It is appropriate that we welcome Director Robert Mueller of the 

Federal Bureau of Investigation back to the Committee during National Police Week. He and I were at the National Peace Officers 

Memorial Service with President Obama at the Capitol yesterday, 

as were others. And one of the things we talked about before, several of us did, is that every year we are losing too many fine law 

enforcement officers in the line of duty. It is a matter that is of 

great concern to me. It would be one thing if they were all being 

targeted by a particular organization. That does not seem to be the 

thing, that these are disconnected and happening in all parts of the 

country. But we are losing far too many police officers. 

I know Director Mueller is keenly aware of their sacrifice and is 

focused on how best to protect those people who protect us. And I 

do thank him and the hard-working men and women of the FBI 

who work every day to keep us safe, just as I make it a point to 

thank the police officers here on Capitol Hill who keep us safe. But 

I worry about their safety, too. 

Now, in the years since September 11th, the FBI has played an 

increasingly important role in our Nation’s counterterrorism and 

intelligence-gathering efforts. Together with prosecutors, other law 

enforcement partners, and the intelligence community, the FBI has 
2 

helped obtain hundreds of terrorism convictions in our federal 

courts. 

Earlier this month, for example, a federal jury in New York 

handed down a guilty verdict in one of the most serious terrorism 

plots since 9/11, which involved plans to carry out suicide bombings 

in the New York subway in 2009. I might say, contrary to the predictions of some, this major terrorism trial proceeded without a 

hitch in a federal court in the heart of New York City. There was 

hardly any disruption of the lives of New Yorkers who live and 

work near the courthouse, and they were convicted. 

The defendant was convicted without the need for mandatory 

military custody or interrogation, certainly without the need for indefinite detention at Guantanamo Bay or elsewhere. He is going to 

be sentenced later this year. He faces life imprisonment. But it is 

only the latest example—and there are many, many, many of 

them—of federal law enforcement, prosecutors, and criminal courts 

successfully investigating and trying terrorism cases. In recent 

years, the Christmas Day bomber and the Times Square bomber 

were convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment after the FBI 

used its expertise and experience to obtain statements after giving 

Miranda warnings, and they did all that without resorting to torture, and not only got a great deal of information, some of which 

we cannot go into in an open session, but they also got convictions. 

In contrast, the military commissions proceedings against the 9/ 

11 plotters are just beginning at Guantanamo Bay. And we know 

there is going to be lengthy litigation concerning the torture and 

mistreatment of certain defendants. The trial itself will not start 

until sometime next year, unlike those trials that have already 

been completed, and people are being sentenced. Moreover, as Director Mueller pointed out last year during the debate over the defense authorization bill, mandating military custody in these situations merely hampers the FBI’s ability to react swiftly and flexibly 

in gathering intelligence and evidence. That is one of the reasons 

why I have joined Senator Mark Udall in cosponsoring the Due 

Process and Military Detention Amendments Act, which would repeal that mandatory military detention requirement. 

In the coming months, I also look forward to speaking with the 

Director about the administration’s request for reauthorization of 

FISA. I certainly appreciate the importance of providing the intelligence community with appropriate surveillance tools to help protect our country against terrorist threats. But we have to be sure 

that we are conducting sufficient oversight to ensure that we protect the privacy rights and civil liberties of law-abiding Americans. 

That is what I tried to do when we reauthorized certain provisions 

of the USA PATRIOT Act, and I am disappointed that commonsense, bipartisan improvements were ultimately not enacted. As 

Congress considers the administration’s request to reauthorize the 

FISA Amendments Act, I will look at whether we should strengthen 

accountability or privacy or liberty protections in the various parts 

of it. 

Now, while faced with daunting national security challenges, Director Mueller has also ensured that the FBI has maintained its 

historic focus on fighting crime. At a time of economic crisis and 

shrinking State and local law enforcement budgets, many expected 
3 

violent crime to skyrocket. Instead, crime rates across the country 

have continued to decline. Along with the commitment of the President and the Congress to continued federal assistance to State and 

local law enforcement, the dedicated service of FBI agents throughout the country has played an important role in helping to keep 

these crime rates low and keep Americans safe. 

The FBI and the Justice Department have worked hand in hand 

with us to make great strides toward more effective fraud prevention and enforcement. In the last Congress, I worked hard with 

both Republican and Democratic Senators to craft and pass the 

Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act, the most expansive antifraud legislation actually in more than a decade. We enacted important anti-fraud provisions as well as part of both the Affordable 

Care Act and Wall Street reform legislation. And I must say, Director, I am pleased to see that the FBI has greatly increased the 

number of agents investigating fraud. There is not only the advantage of recovering money, but it also has to have a great deterrent 

effect. These new agents and laws have led to record fraud recoveries and increased fraud arrests and convictions. 

I commend the FBI for also continuing to combat corruption. We 

should pass common-sense, bipartisan legislation like the Fighting 

Fraud to Protect Taxpayers Act and the Public Corruption Prosecution Improvements Act to give you more tools to fight this scourge. 

[The prepared statement of Senator Leahy appears as a submission for the record.] 

So, Director, while my voice is still working with all the pollens 

in here, I will yield to Senator Grassley. 

STATEMENT OF HON. CHUCK GRASSLEY, A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM THE STATE OF IOWA 

Senator GRASSLEY. Chairman Leahy, thank you. Thank you, Director Mueller, for coming. 

The Chairman paid tribute to Police Week, so I will not repeat 

those words, but I certainly agree with everything that the Chairman said. 

It has been six months since our last hearing. On a housekeeping 

matter, the FBI has been improving response time to our requests 

for information, but there is still too long of a wait for some written 

responses. And yesterday afternoon, we received some answers to 

questions for the record from six months ago when the Director testified. 

I want to know what efforts the FBI has undertaken to investigate the serious and grave national security leak surrounding the 

recently revealed operation in Yemen. National security leaks have, 

unfortunately, become the norm with far too much sensitive information being leaked about ongoing operations. They are dangerous 

and have grave consequences. They threaten sensitive sources and 

methods and endanger life and complicate relationships with our 

allies. So I hope to hear from the Director what the FBI is doing 

to investigate that leak and bring people to justice. 

Next, there are a couple pressing national security policy matters 

that we need to address in the Senate. As the Director pointed out 

in written testimony, the FISA Amendments Act expires at the end 

of the year. This critical national security tool needs to be reauthor-
4 

ized, and I would like to hear from the Director about the urgency 

in pushing that reauthorization. 

The Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act is important. We have been waiting patiently for the administration to 

put forth a proposal with necessary fixes to ensure that the goingdark problem is addressed. This needs to be addressed in a correct 

manner. There is a lot of misinformation on this issue floating 

around, and the sooner we have a proposal, the sooner we can work 

to dispel those misconceptions. 

For starters, it is not a plan for the Government to take over the 

Internet or other mediums. It involves compliance with valid, lawfully issued court orders. Simply, it is about ensuring that when a 

court issues an order, law enforcement can obtain the information 

the court authorizes. I want the Director to give us the status on 

this proposal and when the administration plans to send something 

up to the Hill. 

Another critical national security issue to address is 

cybersecurity. The House has passed four separate bills in this 

area. There are a number of other bills pending before the Senate. 

While a lot of attention has been focused on differences between 

these bills, the proposals do have much in common. All the proposals recognize the need to strengthen the Nation’s cybersecurity 

defenses. Where they differ is how to do it, so I hope the Director 

can fill us in on concerns that I have with proposals that create 

new bureaucracies to deal with cybersecurity. I will ask the Director about the danger of compartmentalizing cybersecurity-related 

threat information and whether such efforts would lead to reconstituting the wall between national security and criminal matters. 

Aside from national security, the FBI continues to handle a significant caseload of traditional criminal matters. One matter of 

concern is a recent report in the Washington Post about a number 

of cases where individuals may have been convicted based upon 

faulty FBI crime lab reports. This issue dates back to the 1990s 

when I conducted oversight work on the FBI crime law, when they 

spent $1 million to settle with a whistleblower, build a new lab. I 

am interested in—what is concerning me is that the recent reports 

indicate that the Justice Department’s review of these cases may 

have been incomplete and that defendants in cases may not have 

been notified about problems. It is troubling. However, what is 

even more troubling is that it appears the Justice Department 

never made public the findings of the report, nor does it appear 

these findings were reported to Congress. 

Given the high-profile problems with disclosing exculpatory evidence and serious misconduct by FBI and DOJ officials in the prosecution of Senator Stevens, this report has raised a number of 

questions. I want to hear from the Director what he has done as 

part of this review and what is being done to address these cases. 

Time permitting, there are a number of other topics. I remain 

concerned that whistleblowers at the FBI face retaliation and 

delays in clearing their names. Just yesterday we received written 

responses from the Director’s last appearance where he addressed 

the long-running whistleblower cases of Turner and Kobus. These 

cases have languished at the Justice Department for many years 

despite clear findings of retaliation for protected whistleblowing, 
5 

nearly 10 years in the Turner case and four years for Kobus. So, 

obviously, I am disappointed in the Director’s written answers. 

They fail to answer the basic question about when these matters 

will come to an end and are chock full of legalese. They do nothing 

to bring closure to these matters, which I consider a black eye for 

the Bureau. In fact, one response states that the Director cannot 

answer because of ongoing litigation. So, note, the litigation is only 

ongoing because the FBI continues to appeal the case. At some 

point the FBI needs to own up to the retaliation and end these 

cases. That is something within the Director’s power, something he 

could and should do immediately. 

Finally, I want to thank the Director for his candor in answering 

one of my written questions about the FBI’s attempt to overclassify 

a memorandum provided to us. In a rare admission of fault, the 

written questions noted that the FBI erroneously stamped a memo 

to the Congress as ‘‘sensitive security information’’ under the Code 

of Federal Regulations. At first glance, this stamp appeared to 

limit disclosure of the memo; however, a closer look revealed the 

FBI was attempting to classify the memo using the authority reserved for the Administrator of TSA and Secretary of Transportation. While we in Congress understand the need to appropriately 

classify certain information, this was an example of the overreach 

that has made us cynical about overclassification of materials, and 

so I am very happy that the FBI owned up to this erroneous classification but worried that it may signal a greater problem. 

I look forward to addressing these topics. Thank you very much. 

Chairman LEAHY. Thank you. 

Director Mueller, please go ahead, sir. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. ROBERT S. MUELLER III, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. MUELLER. Good morning, and thank you, Chairman Leahy 

and Ranking Member Grassley and Members of the Committee. I 

want to thank you for the opportunity to appear before the Committee today and most particularly thank you for your continued 

support of the men and women of the FBI. 

As you have pointed out, the Bureau has undergone unprecedented change in recent years. Since the attacks of September 

11th, we have refocused our efforts to address and prevent emerging terrorist threats, which are more diverse than they were 10 

years ago. And we also face increasingly complex threats to our Nation’s cybersecurity as nation state actors, organized criminal 

groups, and hackers for hire are stealing trade secrets and valuable 

research from America’s colleges, America’s companies, and our 

government agencies. And, of course, we must also combat investment fraud, health care fraud, and mortgage fraud that have undermined the world’s financial system and victimized investors, 

homeowners, and taxpayers. 

And while crime may be down nationwide, as you pointed out, 

Mr. Chairman, gang violence still plagues far too many neighborhoods. And to combat these threats, we in the Bureau are relying 

on our law enforcement and private sector partners more than 

ever. And throughout these efforts, the FBI remains firmly com-
6 

mitted to carrying out our mission while protecting the civil liberties of the citizens we serve. 

Let me begin with the threat from terrorism, which does remain 

and still remains our top priority. Al Qaeda is decentralized, but 

the group is committed to high-profile attacks against the West, as 

we confirmed from the documents seized from Osama bin Laden a 

year ago. Meanwhile, Al Qaeda affiliates, especially Al Qaeda in 

the Arabian Peninsula, represent the top counterterrorism threat 

to the Nation. AQAP has attempted several attacks on the United 

States in 2009 and 2010, and we are currently exploiting an IED 

seized overseas, which is similar to explosive devices used by AQAP 

in the past. 

We also remain concerned about the threat from homegrown violent extremists. These individuals have no typical profile; their experiences and motives are often distinct, which makes them difficult to find and difficult to stop. 

Let me turn next to counterintelligence. We still confront traditional espionage. Today’s spies are also students, researchers, business people, or operators of ‘‘front companies.’’ They seek not only 

state secrets but also trade secrets, intellectual property, and insider information from government, businesses, and American universities. 

We are also seeing a growing ‘‘insider threat’’—that is, when employees use their legitimate access to steal secrets for the benefit 

of another company or country. And, of course, the counterintelligence threat is now merging with the cyber threat. Today so 

much sensitive data is stored on computer networks, our adversaries often find it as effective, or even more effective, to steal secrets through cyber intrusions. 

We in the FBI have built up a substantial expertise to address 

the cyber threat, both here at home and abroad. We have cyber 

squads in each of our 56 field offices, with more than 1,000 specially trained agents, analysts, and forensic specialists. And we 

have 63 legal attach ́ e offices that cover the globe to also assist in 

addressing this threat. 

And, finally, the National Cyber Investigative Joint Task Force 

brings together 20 law enforcement, military, and intelligence 

agencies to stop current and predict future cyber attacks. 

Next, let me address our efforts to combat financial crimes. The 

FBI and its partners continue to focus on the financial executives 

who have committed securities and other frauds. From 2009 to 

2011, there have been more than 254 executives charged with corporate fraud. And last year alone, FBI investigations led to more 

than 1,100 convictions for mortgage fraud. In addition, over the 

past four years, we have nearly tripled the number of special 

agents investigating mortgage fraud and other white-collar frauds. 

Among them is health care fraud. Health care spending currently 

makes up about 18 percent of our Nation’s total economy, which 

presents an attractive target to criminals, so much so that we lose 

tens of billions of dollars each year to health care fraud. 

As announced two weeks ago, the FBI, HHS, and the Justice Department continue to bring a record number of cases involving hundreds of millions of dollars in Medicare fraud. Indeed, since their 

inception in March 2007, Medicare Fraud Strike Force operations 
7 

in nine locations have charged more than 1,300 defendants who 

collectively have falsely billed the Medicare program for more than 

$4 billion. 

And crime on our streets remains as much of a threat to our 

overall security as terrorism, espionage, or cyber crime. And the 

most recent Uniform Crime Report does indicate violent crime continues to fall. But as we all know, this does not represent every 

community. For some cities and towns across the Nation, violent 

crime—including gang activity—continues to pose a real problem. 

We also continue to confront organized crime. Today’s organized 

crime operates multinational, multibillion-dollar schemes, everything from human trafficking to health care fraud, and from computer intrusions to intellectual property theft. 

The FBI remains vigilant in its efforts to keep children safe and 

to find and stop child predators. Through our Child Abduction 

Rapid Deployment Teams, the Innocence Lost National Initiative, 

our Office of Victim Assistance, and numerous community outreach 

programs, the FBI and its partners are working to make the world 

a safer place for our children. 

Chairman Leahy and Ranking Member Grassley, I thank you for 

this opportunity to discuss the FBI’s priorities, and the transformation the FBI has achieved over the past 10 years would not 

have been possible without your support. I would be happy to answer any questions that you might have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Mueller appears as a submission 

for the record.] 

Chairman LEAHY. Director, before we came in here, you and I 

discussed the question of forensics, and as you know, the Washington Post recently reported that a review of potential errors in 

hair and fiber analysis by FBI forensics experts revealed hundreds 

of mistakes in the 1980s and the 1990s, but that many of these 

mistakes were not disclosed to the people or their defense attorneys. The Post reported the review was very narrow and the evidence in the cases were not retested despite questions about techniques of the lab personnel. 

Now, we have had a lot of attention in this Committee over the 

years, from both parties, about this. Your predecessor said these 

problems have been corrected, but what actions are being taken? 

Do you have a way to ensure that all questionable evidence is retested? Are there ways of making sure that notifications are made 

so that nobody remains in jail based on faulty evidence? 

Mr. MUELLER. Mr. Chairman, there was a review done previously back—it culminated in 2004, which covered the lab that 

was headed by the Justice Department and, of course, we participated and cooperated in that review. Of the 13 examiners that 

were the subject of that review, only one was a hair and fiber analyst. And upon indications that some of those examiners who examined particular hair may have overstated the import of their examinations, the Justice Department, with ourselves contributing, is 

going back to look at what universe of persons may have been covered by these examiners, which cases may have had occasion where 

the examiners testified and did overstate the import of their examinations, and then to do whatever notifications are appropriate 

given that review. 
8 

At this point in time, we are not certain exactly what the universe will be, but we are working to determine that universe and 

make certain that we go back and identify those cases that need 

a further review. 

The only other thing I would add is that in 1996—prior to 1996, 

we did not have DNA, but in 1996, we developed the mitochondrial 

DNA examination, which thereafter was done in conjunction with 

any hair and fiber examination that we had conducted. 

Chairman LEAHY. It is not just the DNA, and I realize we have 

got new—new techniques come up all the time. I just wanted to 

make sure that we are doing it the best possible way because, 

whether it is federal prosecutors or State prosecutors, if they are 

relying on something from the FBI in testimony, and the courts 

are, we do not want to come back later on and have to say, wait 

a minute, this just did not work, because that is going to put in 

doubt prosecutions and everything else everywhere else. 

So I introduced the Criminal Justice and Forensic Science Reform Act. This would be for a nationwide forensics reform act, including research and standards. Would that be something that 

might help? 

Mr. MUELLER. I know that there is discussion about standardization of forensics. We have some substantial role in that now, and 

my expectation is whatever the administration comes out with— 

and I know it is looking at certain proposals. My expectation is we 

would continue to play a substantial role in contributing to the 

standards when it comes to forensics work. 

Chairman LEAHY. I am sure you agree with me that, when the 

government has experts testify, that testimony, especially on things 

of a scientific nature, is the best possible. 

Mr. MUELLER. Absolutely. 

Chairman LEAHY. The questions of eyewitnesses and things like 

that, that is always subjective. But there are certain things that 

should be objective, and we should not have to go back afterward 

and say did that really work that way. I am sure you agree with 

that. 

Mr. MUELLER. I do agree with that, and to the extent that new 

forensics testing such as DNA when it comes on is far more specific 

and accurate, we immediately adopt it. In this particular case, we 

need to go back and look at the universe of cases that predated the 

use of the DNA and determine whether there are additional notifications that need to be made. 

Chairman LEAHY. Please keep this Committee posted as you go 

through that review. 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes, sir. 

Chairman LEAHY. You and I talked yesterday before the National 

Peace Officers Memorial Service about the number of police officers 

who have been killed: nationwide, 122 in 2009, 154 in 2010, 163 

in 2011. This is a very troubling trend. I continue to work on the 

Bulletproof Vest Grant Program. I have been told by police departments all over the country that that has saved a lot of lives. I am 

hopeful that this Committee will reauthorize it tomorrow. 

I also understand that domestic violence situations are posing 

special risks to officers. We voted to reauthorize the Violence 
9 

Against Women Act here in the Senate. The House is now looking 

at it. 

Can you think of things that we could be doing here that might 

help? 

Mr. MUELLER. Let me just add to the things that are being done 

two additional ones. 

Chairman LEAHY. I assume you agree with the—— 

Mr. MUELLER. Absolutely. 

Chairman LEAHY. With the Bulletproof Vest Program. 

Mr. MUELLER. Absolutely. The Bulletproof Vest Program has 

saved innumerable lives, and while there was some discussion 

early on about making officers wear them, I think that discussion 

is at an end, given the benefits that everybody sees from the use 

of those vests. 

Two additional things that we are undertaking: We have changed 

our new firearms training for our own agents to reflect that many 

of the confrontations now are a lot closer than perhaps they were 

in the past, and often State and local law enforcement follow our 

lead when it comes to firearms practices. Second, we have what we 

call a Violent Offender Alert System with our NCIC. When an 

agent or an officer stops somebody, when they look to determine 

their history, there will be an indication that that individual, that 

suspect or that person that they have detained, has a violent history. And so that will put the detaining officer or agent on alert 

that this is something special that you have to be aware of. 

Chairman LEAHY. I will accept your invitation to come down and 

see the new firearms training. 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Chairman LEAHY. And, last, you have testified before about the 

need for law enforcement to keep pace with developments in communication technology and so on. We have CALEA, the Communications Assistance Law Enforcement Act, that I drafted and 

helped to enact back in the 1990s. Some have suggested updating 

it. There have been press reports that the FBI is seeking to expand 

CALEA to require Internet service providers and other online services make their products amenable to Government surveillance and 

intercept. There have been recent published reports about draft 

legislative proposals circulating, although the administration has 

not sent anything up here. 

Should I be expecting a specific legislative proposal from the FBI 

or the administration in the near future? 

Mr. MUELLER. I believe you would, but I do believe that characterization is somewhat of a distortion of what our needs are. As 

was pointed out by Ranking Member Grassley, we will go to court, 

make the appropriate showing of probable cause that there is a 

need to capture communications of a particular individual, and a 

judge will issue an order. 

What we are seeking is the ability to enforce that order and be 

able to obtain those communications, and what we are looking at 

is some form of legislation that will assure that when we get the 

appropriate court order, that those individuals, individual companies that are served with that order do have the capability and the 

capacity to respond to that order. 
10 

Chairman LEAHY. I think it would clear up a lot of confusion 

about what might be sought if we can actually see a proposal from 

the administration, and I would urge the administration to get that 

before us. 

Senator Grassley. 

Senator GRASSLEY. I had a lead-in to my first question that I am 

going to skip, but it goes back to exactly the first question that the 

Chairman asked. 

Do you know why the Justice Department did not notify defense 

counsel in each case of the task force’s findings? 

Mr. MUELLER. I am not certain that they did not—I am not certain exactly with specificity what the notification procedures were 

back in 2004. I would have to get back to you on that, who was 

notified and who was not notified and the circumstances under 

which a decision was made. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Did the Justice Department share records 

with the FBI about what notifications went to the prosecutor? 

Mr. MUELLER. I would have to check on that. I am not certain. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Okay. Well, I hope if there is one area where 

we should all be able to agree, it would be on this one, that defense 

counsel ought to be notified or the person that is in jail ought to 

be notified if there is other information that might bear on the 

case. And, Chairman Leahy, I would like to work with you to bring 

some public accountability to this process, just as you and I worked 

together on the Army Crime Lab issue a while ago. 

My next question deals with the airplane, but not your use of the 

airplane. It is a sensitive issue with you, so it is not about you. 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes, sir. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Last month, the Associated Press reported that Defense Secretary Panetta incurred $870,000 in personal travel to California using a government plane. In accordance with OMB 

policy, Panetta reimbursed the Department for the flights, but at 

a significant discounted market rate. It is my understanding that 

the Attorney General utilizes FBI aircraft for official and personal 

travel. I also understand that the FBI is charged for these trips, 

along with other trips the Attorney General takes on non-FBI aircraft, such as DOD and FAA planes. 

Does the Attorney General use FBI aircraft for both business and 

personal travel? 

Mr. MUELLER. He is required to use FBI—not necessarily FBI, 

but he is required to use government aircraft so that he is in continuous contact, communications contact. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Okay. Does the FBI charge the Attorney General’s use of the FBI plane against its own budget or against the 

Attorney General’s own travel budget? 

Mr. MUELLER. I do think it goes against our budget, but I would 

have to check on that. The intricacies of the billing between the Department of Justice and ourselves for the security of the Attorney 

General I would have to get back to you on. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Then the question comes: Why would the FBI 

be paying for this? 

Mr. MUELLER. I would have to look at that. There is probably 

historical—or it may be we are responsible for his security wherever he is at whatever particular point in time, whatever transpor-
11 

tation he uses. And how that is specifically billed I will have to go 

and check on. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Okay. And it is my understanding, according 

to my friend on my left here, that this may have been a policy 

going back prior to this administration. If so, I still would like that 

information. 

Then you will not be able to answer this, but I am interested in 

the cost, so include that in your answer to me. 

[The information referred to appears under questions and answers.] 

Senator GRASSLEY. And according to information provided me, 

the FBI may have had to lease a private plane because the FBI jet 

was reserved for senior Justice Department officials. Would 

that—— 

Mr. MUELLER. Both myself and the Attorney General, the Department of Justice and FBI, understand that these planes are first 

for investigative work. They are used for counterterrorism, criminal 

cases, and that any travel of the principals is secondary to the use 

of the plane for the investigative work of the FBI. 

Senator GRASSLEY. I look forward to your responses to that. 

Thank you. 

Now, on national security leaks, the FBI has reportedly opened 

an investigation into leaks about the recent underwear bomb operation. It is my understanding that the information that was leaked 

may have compromised the ability of the CIA and our partners to 

use the same sources and methods for similar operations in the future. I am particularly concerned if the operation tactics were 

leaked for political gain, as we have seen in the past, with the authorized leaks from the White House about the operation to kill 

Osama bin Laden. 

Do you agree with me that this leak was damaging to our national security to fight terrorism? 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, let me start by saying that we have initiated 

an investigation into this leak and also affirm, as I think you indicated before, that leaks such as this threaten ongoing operations, 

puts at risk the lives of sources, makes it much more difficult to 

recruit sources, and damages our relationships with our foreign 

partners. And, consequently, a leak like this is taken exceptionally 

seriously, and we will investigate thoroughly. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Okay. I guess you have answered my question there, but the last point that you made was a point I wanted 

you to make, so I guess I would say, regardless of political consequences, I hope that you get to the bottom of it. 

Our international partners have been wary of cooperating with 

us in the wake of WikiLeaks affair in which our ability to keep 

their confidence was severely damaged. What effect do you think 

the leaks in this case will have on our ability to work with allies 

in combating terrorism? 

Mr. MUELLER. My hope is that it will have minimal impact, and 

I know that there are discussions that are going on with partners 

overseas to make certain that whatever impact there is is minimized and precautions put into place so that in the future does not 

happen again. 
12 

Senator GRASSLEY. Director Mueller, you have identified fighting 

terrorism as one of the main priorities, and in your written statement for this hearing, you identified FISA amendments as a crucial 

part. You have personally encouraged the reauthorization of the 

FAA, and your colleagues in the administration, DNI Clapper and 

Attorney General Holder, have sent letters and legislative proposals to accomplish that. I agree with you about the value of the 

FAA tools, and I support the clean authorization of FAA. 

Could you please describe exactly why the FAA is so valuable? 

What authority does it provide that other statutes do not? 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, at base, it provides the authority for intelligence agencies to gather or collect information on conversations 

overseas between persons overseas, non-U.S. citizens. And that intelligence is tremendously important to our ability to analyze and 

predict threats against United States citizens overseas, but also 

against the United States homeland itself. And absent that, we 

would be in the dark when it comes to identifying individuals and 

threats from numerous countries overseas that harbor, willingly or 

unwillingly, persons who want to do us harm. 

One example I could give is the Najibullah Zazi case, which has 

been described by the Chairman as a recently—an aspect of it that 

was recently concluded in convictions in New York. That is a case 

that benefited dramatically from the benefits of the FAA. 

Many of the other benefits would have to be discussed in a closed 

session. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Could I have just one short follow-up? 

A two-part follow-up: Is it critical that we reauthorize FAA this 

year? And is there sufficient oversight and checks and balances to 

ensure that the rights of U.S. citizens are protected? 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, yes, it needs to be done this year so we are 

not in limbo as we have been in the past awaiting legislation, and 

hopefully not having it be carried for a month or so. But, absolutely, it is important that we get it and we get it quickly. 

What was the second part of the question, sir? 

Senator GRASSLEY. Is there sufficient oversight and checks—— 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator GRASSLEY [continuing]. To ensure the rights of U.S. citizens being protected? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes, I do believe there is. I know the Inspector 

General’s offices are very active in this, and also the Intelligence 

Committees as well as this Committee in terms of giving oversight 

to this particular program, and to assure, to the extent one can, 

that it is focused on those individuals who are communicating overseas and who are not U.S. citizens. 

Senator GRASSLEY. Thank you very much. 

Chairman LEAHY. Thank you. 

Senator Kohl. 

Senator KOHL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Director Mueller, before I turn to my questions, I would like to 

thank you for your work to keep open the La Crosse, Wisconsin, 

FBI satellite office that, as you know, had been slated for closure. 

This decision will allow the FBI to do a better job at protecting 

western Wisconsin and continue the strong local and federal law 
13 

enforcement partnership there. I appreciate your willingness to be 

attentive to my interest in this issue. 

Director Mueller, as we all know, this is National Police Week, 

and yesterday we honored officers who made the ultimately sacrifice. Included in the dozens of names to be added to the National 

Law Enforcement Officers Memorial this year is Officer Craig 

Birkholz of the Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, Police Department. 

As we remember the sacrifices of these brave men and women, 

we need to ensure that law enforcement officers have the federal 

support and the resources they need to keep our communities safe. 

Director Mueller, last week at a House hearing, you said that because of the FBI’s realignment in priorities toward counterterrorism and limited resources, the FBI will have to ‘‘prioritize in 

other areas, and particularly in the criminal area they will suffer.’’ 

Could you elaborate a bit on that comment? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes, I actually think that the question was directed on the impact of sequestration on the Bureau. I think the 

question was something along the lines of, what impact would sequestration have on the Bureau and how will you handle it? To 

which my response was that it will cut across all of our programs. 

It actually will—we will have to take a seven- to eight-percent cut 

across the boards, and when we do that, we have to prioritize. And 

the priorities we have are counterterrorism, counterintelligence, espionage is number two, and cyber are the three top national security, and you cannot, particularly in the cyber realm, cut there. So 

you have to look for cuts in the criminal programs. 

Where we would end up doing it, I do not know, but one has to 

prioritize. We will lose something in the neighborhood of 1,500 personnel if sequestration goes there. That will be several hundreds 

of agents, almost 1,000 analysts, and almost 900 professional staff. 

It will be a very hard hit. 

My answer was in response to a question about what would happen if sequestration follows. 

Senator KOHL. How hard a hit will it be, in your judgment, with 

respect to your ability to do the job that the FBI is required to do? 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, there will be gaps in what we are going to 

do. We will probably have to ratchet back in the white-collar criminal program. We have got thousands of agents now looking at 

health care fraud, mortgage fraud, securities fraud, and corporate 

fraud. 

In terms of addressing gang violence around the country, we 

probably will have to cut back in terms of our task forces. 

Our belief since September 11th has been we maximize our capabilities when we work in the context of task forces, so we have established hundreds of Safe Streets Task Forces where we will have 

one or two or three agents, but we will leverage our capabilities 

with State and local law enforcement. We will have to cut back in 

these areas, and that will have, I believe, an impact on those communities that do not have the capabilities of the Bureau leveraged 

with the State and local law enforcement to address violent crime 

on our streets. 

Senator KOHL. Director Mueller, last month Al Qaeda in Yemen 

recruited a suicide bomber to blow up a U.S.-bound airplane with 

a sophisticated explosive device. Fortunately, the would-be bomber 
14 

was actually an informant working for Saudi Arabian intelligence 

and the CIA. This was a tremendous victory for the United States 

intelligence. We were able to unravel a major terrorist plot, recover 

a newly devised weapon, and obtain valuable intelligence. 

But there appears to be a question as to whether this explosive 

device would have been detected by our current airport security 

screening. Even if our more sophisticated body scanners were able 

to detect it, not all domestic airports and only some international 

airports with U.S. inbound flights use them. 

What are counterterrorism officials, including the FBI, doing to 

ensure that these types of devices do not make it onto airplanes? 

Mr. MUELLER. Let me start by saying I have to—in this session, 

I cannot affirm the predicate for the question. I understand the 

question with regard to the device. What we are doing is working 

with TSA in particular to assure that any information we have 

which would bear on TSA and Department of Homeland Security’s 

ability to pick up these devices is in their hands, so that we can 

make certain that we have the capability of alerting on these devices should another one appear. 

Senator KOHL. Director Mueller, while counterterrorism remains, 

as you have said, your number one priority, the FBI also plays a 

central role in protecting American innovation and businesses from 

the serious threat of trade secret theft and economic espionage, 

which you referred to and which you estimated cost businesses billions of dollars every year. I am pleased that the FBI and relevant 

divisions within the Justice Department have increased the number of investigations by some 29 percent in the last year. This big 

jump in the number of investigations suggests that the problem 

may be even greater than we had previously thought. 

Given the increase of investigations and the ever-growing threat 

to American businesses, jobs, and our economy, do you have the 

needed resources to continue to step up enforcement of economic 

espionage and trade secret theft? Can we expect to see an increase 

in these investigations and prosecutions? 

Mr. MUELLER. An increase in investigations and prosecutions follows an increase in personnel. We have now over 50 individuals 

who are focused solely on these particular cases. We quite obviously have to prioritize the cases we tackle. One of the major ones 

we had over the last year was Megaupload, the takedown, as I 

think you are familiar with, of individuals in New Zealand. But we 

are utilizing those personnel to focus on the most egregious cases 

that we find and particularly those cases which could result in 

harm to persons if there are false or inadequately manufactured 

products that are being sold. 

But going back to your point, this is a huge area. I cannot purport to say that we are making a huge impact on it. It would take 

additional resources. But we have to prioritize and lock people up 

as a deterrent to others engaging in this same activity. 

Senator KOHL [presiding]. Thank you. 

Senator Hatch. 

Senator HATCH. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, Mr. 

Director. I personally have appreciated your service over all these 

years. You were nominated by President Bush for a 10-year term. 

In 2001, you were subsequently and unanimously confirmed by the 
15 

Senate in September 2001. Your 10-year term was set to expire on 

September 4, 2011, but it was extended for an additional two years. 

I think that was a good thing to do. 

Now, if I had my way, we would keep you right where you are. 

I understand—— 

Mr. MUELLER. My wife is not hearing this. 

Senator HATCH. Since your term will expire next September, 

have you had any discussion with President Obama about potential 

successors? 

Mr. MUELLER. I am sorry, sir? 

Senator HATCH. Have you had any discussions with President 

Obama about potential successors? 

Mr. MUELLER. I have in the past, but not very recently. 

Senator HATCH. Do you have a transition plan in place for your 

successor? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes, we had put a plan in place so that we would 

be prepared for the new individual when that individual comes on 

board, and we are preparing for 2013 when we would expect a new 

individual to take the helm. 

Senator HATCH. I figured you would. 

Now, a great deal of attention has been paid to the case of Ali 

Musa Daqduq. He is a Lebanese national and Hezbollah field commander with ties to Iran. This terrorist orchestrated a brazen, 

botched kidnapping attempt in Karbala, Iraq, in 2007 which led to 

the death of five uniformed U.S. military personnel. Daqduq was 

in the custody of the United States military in Iraq from March 

2007 until December 2011, when he was transferred to the custody 

of the Iraqi Government. 

A New York Times report from May 7, 2012, indicates that an 

Iraqi court has ordered the release of Daqduq, citing insufficient 

evidence to prosecute him. The New York Times has also reported 

earlier this year that Daqduq has been charged with war crimes, 

including murder, terrorism, and espionage, before a U.S. military 

commission. 

Is the FBI actively engaged with appropriate military officials on 

a plan to provide all necessary support and documents that would 

be needed for the prosecution of Daqduq before a military commission? 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, yes, not only would we be willing and able 

to cooperate with a military commission if we obtain custody of 

Daqduq; in the meantime, however, we have cooperated with the 

Iraqi authorities in providing intelligence and information for their 

proceedings in Iraq with some of our agents testifying by civits in 

those proceedings. So we have tried to provide that information 

that we have to the Iraqi authorities in support of the Iraqi authorities’ charges against Mr. Daqduq. 

Senator HATCH. Okay. And you are going to follow up on that? 

Mr. MUELLER. We will. 

Senator HATCH. Okay. Your agency is conducting the investigation into the death of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry on December 14, 2010. It has been a year and a half since this investigation 

began. In October 2011, Ranking Member Senator Grassley and 

House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman 

Darryl Issa wrote to you inquiring about the status of that inves-
16 

tigation, the number of weapons at the scene of the murder, and 

ballistic tests performed on the weapons recovered at the scene of 

the crime. 

Now, your agency did not respond until May 4, 2012, and the 

FBI’s response only indicated that press reports of a third weapon 

were inaccurate. There was no response to the other questions to 

include the status of the investigation. Can I ask you, what is the 

status of that investigation? 

Mr. MUELLER. I can tell you it is an ongoing, very active investigation. Because of the seriousness of the offense and the loss of 

Agent Brian Terry, any personnel that are needed, it gets top priority. Because it is an ongoing investigation, I cannot get into the 

details. We have, when there has been a misperception out there 

of the facts of the case, tried to right them in the sense that there 

was a belief that there may have been a third weapon at the crime 

scene, and indeed there was not. There were two weapons recovered at the crime scene. 

But going in at this point in time while the investigation is ongoing, it would be difficult to get into further details in this forum. 

Senator HATCH. Would you be willing to tell us who at the Department of Justice is responsible for overviewing that particular 

situation? 

Mr. MUELLER. Is the Department of Justice—in terms of prosecution, yes, it would be the Department of Justice that takes—— 

Senator HATCH. I am talking about who actually participated 

there in coming up with the idea and following through and giving 

these weapons to these—— 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, that would get into the details of the investigation, which I—— 

Senator HATCH. So you cannot get into that? 

Mr. MUELLER. I cannot get into that here, sir. 

Senator HATCH. Okay. You cannot tell us who at the Department 

of Justice was in charge of the—— 

Mr. MUELLER. I am not certain of the particular Assistant 

United States Attorney that is in charge. I am quite certain the 

Criminal Division would be in charge, but I know this investigation 

is a high priority for all levels of the Department of Justice and the 

FBI. 

Senator HATCH. Okay. Well, the FBI has done great work in community outreach, particularly relating to fostering a relationship 

based on shared security goals. And given that the Federal Government has intruded into many aspects of our lives over the years, 

it is imperative that federal law enforcement carefully and continually articulate that the FBI is there to protect them, not police 

them for ordinary lawful conduct. 

I want to bring to your attention a series of flyers from various 

FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces. One of the flyers, which has received a great deal of attention, lists potential indicators of terrorist activities related to military surplus stores. Now, according 

to the flyer, customers who should be considered suspicious include 

those who demand identity private sector, insist on paying with 

cash, make bulk purchases of Meals Ready to Eat—MREs, in other 

words—and purchase weatherproof ammunition. Needless to say, 

there are many Americans who this could apply to who have noth-
17 

ing whatsoever to do with terrorism, and they are rightfully concerned with this type of government decree. 

Now, on the bottom of the flyer in the smallest print possible, the 

document reads: ‘‘Each indicator by itself is a lawful conduct and 

may constitute the exercise of rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.’’ 

I think that disclaimer should have been very prominent and not 

hidden at the bottom of the page, and I think that this flyer and 

others like it needlessly send mixed messages and have raised 

alarm among citizens. 

Can you confirm that the FBI is not looking at people who undertake such normal activities? And will you take an active role in the 

future by reviewing similar documents from FBI entities before 

they are released? 

Mr. MUELLER. I will. We will. But I do want to put it in context. 

We do have what we call ‘‘tripwires’’ out there. For instance, at 

farm supply stores, ammonium nitrate, if somebody buys a substantial amount of ammonium nitrate far beyond what you would 

want for your garden or your fields, that is the type of thing we 

need to know about. 

Senator HATCH. Right. 

Mr. MUELLER. Other chemical, chemical companies, where persons are making purchases that are highly unusual. We had a circumstance where an individual down in Texas who was in the 

midst of constructing an IED purchased chemicals from a company 

that I believe was in Georgia or South Carolina. The company 

came to us and said this is highly unusual, and as a result of that 

tip, we were able to disrupt a substantial plot. 

So we have a process out there. Clearly, having ammonium nitrate or camping gear in the lot in and of itself is not a crime. But 

I will—and I just came back to your question—go and review, have 

a panel review these to make certain that they are done appropriately. 

Senator HATCH. Thanks, Mr. Director. I appreciate your service. 

You have given long and great service to this country. I appreciate 

it. 

Mr. MUELLER. Thank you. 

Chairman LEAHY [presiding]. Senator Feinstein. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Director Mueller, as Senator Hatch pointed out, you have served 

both a Republican and a Democratic administration. I have 

watched you carefully. You have never disappointed, and I think 

that is very impressive. I do not know whether this is going to be 

your last appearance before this Committee in the form of an oversight hearing or not, but I did want to say that to you directly. 

Mr. MUELLER. Thank you. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. You are welcome. 

As you know, Title VII of FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, expires December 31st of this year. This particular title 

allows for electronic surveillance of targets outside of the United 

States. The Senate Intelligence Committee, as well as this Committee, has done extensive oversight over the Government’s use of 

these surveillance authorities, and we look forward to working with 
18 

you to reauthorize the FISA Amendments Act well before the end 

of this year. 

I think we need to look no further than the recent AQAP bomb 

plot to know that the threat is still out there. As you said, it is very 

real, and there is no question that they will attack this country if 

they can. 

For the benefit of Members and so that the American people can 

hear directly from you about this intelligence collection activity, 

can you please explain the need to reauthorize Title VII of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act? 

Mr. MUELLER. If we learned one thing on September 11th and 

one thing only, it was the need to share intelligence and gather intelligence to identify persons who would kill American citizens, 

whether it be here domestically or overseas. The shock of September 11th in part was attributable to the fact that these were 

individuals from outside the United States who were radicalized, 

who plotted, who then undertook the attack in the United States. 

We cannot wait until the attackers are on the shores of the 

United States to preempt plots such as the plot that was preempted last week. We cannot wait until that person gets on the 

plane and is over U.S. territory in order to try to stop that plot. 

We have to know what is happening in Yemen; we have to know 

what is happening in the Fatah and Pakistan and Afghanistan; we 

have to know what is happening in Somalia; we have to know what 

is happening in Algeria and Morocco, because in each of these 

places there are pieces of Al Qaeda that are operating and are 

seeking to attack us domestically. 

One of the key areas of insight into these activities is our ability 

to intercept conversations in a variety of media today and with the 

intercepted conversations, get a picture, an idea of what plotting is 

occurring overseas. 

If you take that away from us, if you take that picture away from 

us, if you take away from us the ability to gather this kind of information, then we will be defenseless until a person crosses our borders, and we cannot allow that to happen. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. Well, thank you very much. One of your legacies, of course, is going to be that you have put in place a very 

large intelligence component within the FBI. I gather it is above 

10,000 people now working in intelligence. What is the actual number? 

Mr. MUELLER. We have approximately 3,000 analysts, but all of 

our 14,000 agents now, in the intelligence community, you would 

call them ‘‘collectors.’’ We call them ‘‘agents.’’ But at the same time, 

they are collecting—whatever they do, they are collecting information. And whereas for the most part in the past we would focus on 

is it admissible in court, now it is information that is collected to 

fill gaps. What do we know about this particular threat to the 

United States? And what do we not know, and how do we fill those 

gaps? 

And so, on the one hand, yes, we have 3,000 analysts. That has 

tripled since 2001. But also the organization as a whole understands that we address a threat. It is not just locking up people; 

it is not just putting people away; but it is understanding the 

threat and preempting the individuals who want to attack. 
19 

Senator FEINSTEIN. Do you know whether a crimes report has 

been filed with the Department of Justice pursuant to the AQAP 

bomb retrieval and the leak? 

Mr. MUELLER. I am not certain—you describe a crimes report. 

There have been, I know, discussions between ourselves and other 

agencies as the necessity for and investigation on the leak. And as 

I have said, we have initiated an investigation. 

In terms of reporting, we, as I think has been indicated, had the 

responsibility of exploiting the IED device, and whatever reporting 

has come out of that has gone to not only the Department of Justice but other agencies. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. You have a counterterrorism special agent 

working out of Los Angeles that has been missing for five days 

now. 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. What can you tell us about that? 

Mr. MUELLER. We are still searching for that individual. His wife 

and the office sought yesterday to widely publicize the fact that he 

is missing. There have been searches made in those areas where 

this individual, this agent, would often run or hike. We are still 

searching. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. Thank you. 

On Sunday, Hank Crumpton, whom you probably know, the 

former head of the CIA’s National Resources Division, was interviewed on ‘‘60 Minutes.’’ When asked about counterintelligence— 

and I want to quote him—this is what he said: ‘‘If you look at the 

threat that is imposed on our Nation every day, some of the major 

nation states, China in particular, very sophisticated intelligence 

operations, very aggressive operations against the United States. I 

would hazard to guess that there are more foreign intelligence officers inside the U.S. working against U.S. interests now than even 

at the height of the Cold War.’’ 

Now, I know there is a limit to what you can say before this 

Committee, but how would you respond to that statement? 

Mr. MUELLER. I think it is difficult to say, but I do believe the 

counterintelligence threat has evolved over a period of time. More 

generally, certain countries use far greater dispersal of individuals, 

and then as I mentioned in my opening remarks, the fact that so 

much of our data is kept in data bases on networks, and they may 

be vulnerable for attacks overseas, you do not have to be in the 

United States to undertake an attack and to secure secrets from 

our networks. And so the counterintelligence threat has evolved in 

ways that were not present back during the Cold War. 

In terms of numbers of persons, I think that is less important 

than the ways that foreign countries are seeking to steal our secrets, not just within individuals, not just with ‘‘HUMINT,’’ as one 

would call it in the intelligence community, but also with cyber attacks and cyber extractions of information. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. One quick question. Sex trafficking of children. 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. A big issue, large numbers, I think all of us 

one way or another have run into it in our States. What more can 

the FBI do to be helpful with this really terrible, terrible thing? 
20 

Mr. MUELLER. We have a program that we have had for a substantial period of time which we focus on this phenomenon 

throughout the United States, and we have, on a number of occasions, had substantial takedowns of individuals who are involved 

in it. Unfortunately, that does not end the problem. There are 

many more out there. 

The gratifying aspect of it from persons who work there say it 

is that the victims we are able to save in terms of our activity. It 

is another area where we would love to be able to put more additional resources. We try to leverage what resources we have because every child saved is a child that we will remember for a good 

long time. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. Thank you. 

Chairman LEAHY. Thank you. 

Senator Kyl. 

Senator KYL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Just following up on that last point, you talked before about the 

need to prioritize in the event of sequestration. Every one of these 

responsibilities that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has are 

important to somebody, and in many cases, they are important to 

the entire citizenry. 

When you said, ‘‘Our budget would take a big hit’’—let me see 

if I can get the—‘‘It would be a very hard hit’’ is what you just said. 

I recall when the Secretary of Defense was asked not just about the 

hit on the budget but the effect on the country on his ability to help 

defend the country. Could I ask you to respond to the question in 

that way about the FBI’s ability to do the important work that it 

has? The Secretary of Defense called it ‘‘catastrophic.’’ How would 

you characterize the effect of these sequestration across-the-board 

cuts if, in fact, they occur? 

Mr. MUELLER. Let me go back and say I misspoke before, because I think I said it would be a seven- to eight-percent cut. I 

should have said we would lose 3,500 positions as opposed to 1,500. 

It is 3,500 positions: 1,500 special agents, 1,100 analysts, and 900 

professional staff. 

It is hard for me to categorize and use a word such as ‘‘catastrophic.’’ I would say it would be, maybe as important a word, 

‘‘devastating’’ for a variety of reasons. 

Senator KYL. That is bad enough. 

Mr. MUELLER. The individuals—and devastating from, as you 

point out, the impact it will have not just on the Bureau but on 

people that we serve. The programs that we have to save children, 

the programs we have to protect our networks from cyber attacks, 

the programs we have to put behind bars those persons who are 

responsible for white-collar crimes, securities fraud, corporate 

fraud, and mortgage fraud, health care fraud—all of which if you 

do not have the capacity to go and put the persons in jail, then 

there is no deterrence and it will grow. It will hamper that. 

And more particularly, what people tend to forget is the longterm effects when you have a hiring freeze or you have a sequestration where the institution is impacted for years down the road. 

It may be rectified in 12 months or 18 months or two years. But 

that hiring freeze and the like translates into a gap in that agency 

for years down the road. 
21 

Where we are attempting to keep up with the technology when 

it comes to responding to cyber attacks, we will miss a generation 

of individuals who have those capabilities if we are required to cut 

back and lose 1,500 agents. So not only is the impact devastating 

at the outset, it is devastating down the road. 

Senator KYL. Thank you for that, and I share my colleagues’ concern that we must address this, and certainly before the end of the 

year. 

Let me also refer to your testimony about investigating the 

source of the leaks of this most recent—I think you referred to it 

as an IED, but we can refer to it as another potential underwear 

bomber case. Would that be accurate? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. Explosive device. 

Senator KYL. Explosive device. And you do have an investigation 

ongoing, underway. Is that correct? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator KYL. And let me just ask you about—how would you 

characterize how important it is to find the source of the leak? 

Mr. MUELLER. As I indicated before, leaks such as this have a 

devastating—I do not want to overuse the word ‘‘devastating’’—but 

have a huge impact on our ability to do our business, not just on 

a particular source and the threat to the particular source, but 

your ability to recruit sources is severely hampered. And in cases 

such as this, the relationship with your counterparts overseas is 

damaged, which means an inhibition in the willingness of others to 

share information with us where they do not think that information will remain secure. 

So it also has some long-term effects, which is why it is so important to make certain that the persons who are responsible for the 

leak are brought to justice. 

Senator KYL. Now, sometimes there is no other lead that leads 

you to the result except talking to the reporters involved. In the 

past, you and others in the law enforcement community have taken 

a very strong position indicating your concerns about legislation 

that would undermine your ability to protect intelligence sources 

and methods that could seriously impede national security investigations. 

Is it still your view that it would not be a good policy for reporters to have a special privilege or a special right not to talk to FBI 

or other law enforcement officials if they may have the information 

that would lead you to the leaker? 

Mr. MUELLER. That is somewhat general in terms of sort of framing legislation. I would have to leave the ultimate decision on the 

legislation to the Department of Justice. But I do believe that the 

protocols established within the Department of Justice to protect 

and assure the media are adequate to accomplish that task. 

Senator KYL. I appreciate that, and the reason I ask the question 

generally is because I realize that policy is set by the Attorney 

General or the administration generally, which is why I asked you 

about as a general proposition whether it is helpful or harmful to 

your efforts. And you have said in the past that your FBI guidelines are sufficient. Others have agreed with that. I happen to 

agree with that and think that that is good policy. 
22 

Let me just conclude by reiterating the comments of both Senators Kohl and Feinstein about the importance of reauthorizing 

FISA before the end of the year. There is a lot of concern around 

here that we are going to kick all of the big, important decisions 

down the road to after the election, and even though this does not 

expire until the end of the year, I think my colleagues were saying 

it would be good to do this as soon as possible. 

Just from the standpoint of knowing what you have to deal with 

in the future, the continuity of your training and law enforcement 

efforts and so on, is it your view that the sooner we could accomplish this reauthorization of Title VII of FISA, the better from your 

perspective? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. Give us some certainty. 

Senator KYL. Thank you very much, Mr. Director. 

Senator FEINSTEIN. [Presiding.] Thank you very much, Senator 

Kyl. 

Senator Durbin. 

Senator DURBIN. Thank you, Senator Feinstein. 

Director Mueller, good to see you. 

Mr. MUELLER. Senator. 

Senator DURBIN. And thank you for your service. You have done 

an extraordinary job in one of the most challenging times in our 

Nation’s history. I thank you personally for taking some time to 

focus attention on my home town of East St. Louis, Illinois, which, 

sadly, has one of the highest rates of violent crime per capita in 

the Nation. There is a WAVE Task Force, a multi-unit task force, 

including FBI agents, which is doing its level best to change that, 

and I thank you for your willingness, even with limited resources, 

to participate. 

We have exchanged conversations and correspondence on the 

issue of training manuals, and I would like to make the record 

clear today about the current situation. I am asking to enter into 

the record letters which you and I exchanged in March and April 

of this year when it was disclosed, when some parts of the training 

manuals became public, that some things had been stated in the 

training of FBI agents which had been, I would just say, characterized as inappropriate and unfair to Arabs and Muslims. And we 

have spoken about this personally. I have spoken to Attorney General Holder. Could you tell me at moment in time what is the current status of training manuals in the FBI as it relates to these 

two groups and what you have done to make certain we do not 

have the kinds of things that have troubled us in the past? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes, Senator, as I have indicated in the letter, 

when this came to our attention last summer, we took it exceptionally seriously, and we convened a group of five individuals, we believe, all of whom have advanced degrees, two of whom were in the 

Bureau, three were outside the Bureau, to make a preliminary review of the materials and determine what then should be done to 

make certain that the training we give our agents is appropriate. 

With a touchstone document—and I have to apologize because I 

believe in a conversation with you I indicated that it was a curriculum. It was not. It was a touchstone document that these persons put together as a guidance as to how to go through and treat 

the records we were going through. 
23 

We then had up to 30 individuals—agents, analysts, and others—go through over 160,000 documents, training documents—not 

necessarily a manual but training documents that had been used 

over the preceding 10 years since September 11th, along with more 

than 1,000 slides and the like. We had them go through and pull 

out those particular documents that were inappropriate for whatever reason. They could have been wrong; they could have raised 

the specter of an individual being pointed out that should not be 

pointed out. For whatever reason, those particular documents needed to come out of our training. We identified 876 of those documents that needed to be pulled out. We found the other approximately 160,000 documents appropriate. 

Then, with those documents, we went out to the field and explained why these particular documents, with examples, were inappropriate. We interviewed the individuals who were responsible for 

those documents. We did more than 100 interviews of such individuals. And we also are in the process now of going out and making 

certain that the materials that we are using are in accordance with 

our—are appropriate. 

One of the things it did teach us and one of the things that 

comes out is that we did not have a mandatory review for training 

documents such as this, and so we have put into place, apart from 

this, a review of training so that anybody who is giving a training 

cannot just go up and put together their training materials. It has 

to go through a screening process. 

We have taken it exceptionally seriously, as I think perhaps you 

can understand given the personnel we put on it. But I think we 

have gone a long way to resolving the issue. 

Senator DURBIN. Critics have said this is all about congressional 

meddling and political correctness, and I would like to have your 

characterization, because you stated to us earlier that one of the 

key elements in fighting terrorism is connections, cooperation, and 

you have said, Attorney General Holder has said that Muslim 

Americans and Arab Americans have been a vital part of our effort 

to keep our Nation safe. I would like to have your characterization 

as to whether this is just an exercise of political correctness. 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, for us and for me personally, it is not an exercise of political correctness. It is an exercise of doing what is 

right given what we had seen. I believe that the five individuals 

that we selected have the professional capabilities to guide us in 

this way, and it is absolutely essential that our agents are instructed giving the best possible materials and those materials that 

are in accordance with our core values. So I reject any assertion 

that this is as a result of political correctness or any such other 

characterization. It is what needed to be done. And I will follow up, 

as I have before, and said that many of the cases that we have 

done are a result of the Muslim community bringing to our attention individuals who needed further investigation, and we would 

not be as safe as we are today without the support of the Muslim 

American, Arab American, and Sikh American communities in the 

United States. 

Senator DURBIN. Thank you. I only have a brief time left here, 

and I am sorry because we went through this exercise—and it was 

unusual—where all Members of the Senate, Democrats and Repub-
24 

licans, were invited to a classified hearing—the FBI was represented, the Department of Defense, so many other agencies—on 

cybersecurity, which you mentioned. There is a bill pending to try 

to make our Nation safer from the cybersecurity threat. I am trying 

to look at this through the prism of our individual rights of privacy 

as individuals and the basic liberties and values that we share. 

Can you tell me, in the brief time remaining here, do you feel 

that the cybersecurity legislation proposed by the administration 

compromises any of the rights of privacy that individuals have customarily enjoyed in this country under wiretap statutes and 

other—I could go through the specifics here—other legislation? Are 

we changing the standard when it comes to cybersecurity in terms 

of the disclosures of any individuals’ emails or texts in the name 

of security? 

Mr. MUELLER. It does not change the standards by which the 

government can obtain information relating to an investigation. Let 

me just put it that way. And while I am somewhat familiar with 

the administration’s proposal, I am not thoroughly familiar, so I do 

not think from what little I know that it changes that dynamic at 

all. 

I will say, though, the only way to prevent a cyber attack, a substantial cyber attack, is to exchange information. In the same way, 

to prevent terrorist attacks you need to exchange information. And 

the success, any successes after September 11th are due to the fact 

that we are working closely with State and local law enforcement, 

working with the intelligence community. We understand that the 

borders no longer protect us, and we have to share information. To 

protect against cyber attacks, we are going to have to do the same 

thing, but it is going to have to incorporate the private sector in 

ways that you did not have to incorporate the private sector when 

we were facing the counterterrorism threat. 

But the cyber threat will be no less than the counterterrorism 

threat. There will have to be the exchange of information, and it 

needs to have an exchange not just between the intelligence community and the law enforcement community, but between the intelligence community, the law enforcement community, DHS, and the 

private sector. 

Senator DURBIN. There will be many more questions. I thank 

you. 

Chairman LEAHY. Thank you. 

Senator Lee. 

Senator LEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thanks for joining us today, Director Mueller, and I want to 

thank you not only for being here but also for serving our country. 

Yours is not an easy job. 

Last year, you expressed some concerns about the National Defense Authorization Act for 2012. Specifically, in a letter that you 

wrote to Senator Levin in November of last year, you expressed 

some concerns with what became Section 1022 of that legislation, 

saying that you were worried about that provision introducing a 

degree of uncertainty and potentially inhibiting the FBI’s capacity 

to convince covered arrestees to cooperate immediately and to provide important intelligence. 
25 

My concerns with the NDAA focused much more with what became Section 1021. To some extent, I think the President indicated 

that he shared some of those concerns. He indicated in his signing 

statement on December 31, 2011, as follows. He said, ‘‘I want to 

clarify that my administration will not authorize the indefinite 

military detention without trial of American citizens. Indeed, I believe that doing so would break with our most important traditions 

and values as a Nation. My administration will interpret Section 

1021 in a manner that ensures that any detention it authorizes 

complies with the constitutional laws of war and other applicable 

law.’’ 

In light of that statement—you know, I was encouraged by that 

statement. I think it is good. I still had some concerns that future 

administrations might not hold that view or that this administration might change its position at some point. In light of that concern, I joined with Senator Feinstein in introducing S. 2003, the 

Due Process Guarantee Act, to ensure that U.S. citizens apprehended on American soil are not detained indefinitely without 

charge or without trial. 

So I guess my first question is: Do you share the President’s commitment, as I assume you would, as to the fact that U.S. citizens 

should not be detained indefinitely without trial under 1021? 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, yes, in the sense that—yes. Yes. But let me 

just say there is no change to our activities; in other words, our authorities remain the same. How we handle things is not changed 

by the President’s declaration. But, yes, I would assume that that 

would happen, that would be the case. 

Senator LEE. Some people have suggested that military detention 

may be necessary in some of these circumstances because FBI and 

other civilian authorities lack the resources or the capabilities to 

deal with the unique circumstances associated with the apprehension and detention of terrorism suspects. And so my question for 

you on that point is: What are the FBI’s abilities in this regard? 

Do you feel the FBI would lack the capacity to handle these circumstances to deal with the apprehension and detention of terrorism suspects? 

Mr. MUELLER. No. The answer at the outset is no, but we may 

be talking about a different class of—if you are talking about covered 1022 persons, we are talking about individuals who are nonU.S. citizens, individuals who are participating in a plot with Al 

Qaeda and the like, where 1022 kicks in. 

Going back to your initial question, I had some concerns about 

clarity as to what would happen at the time of arrest. Those concerns have been put to rest by the protocol that was established by 

the President. 

Regardless of whether a person is detained in the United States 

by the FBI or ultimately it could be by the military, if it happens 

on a base, for instance, I have no question but that ourselves and 

the military would be capable of handling the consequent investigation and search for intelligence. 

Senator LEE. Okay. So given this protocol that was developed in 

light of the President’s signing statement on December 31st, given 

what you just added to that, would it be fair for me to assume that 

the administration would not object to legislation that would put 
26 

this rule in place by statutes, in other words, to say that we would 

not use Section 1021 to indefinitely detain U.S. citizens? 

Mr. MUELLER. That would have to go to the Department of Justice. That is a step too far for me. 

Senator LEE. Understood. Understood. 

In your testimony, in your written testimony, you stated that you 

support the reauthorization of the FISA Amendments Act. Among 

other things, those amendments authorize the government to surveil various categories of non-U.S. persons abroad, outside the 

United States, without the need for a court order for each individual target. 

Although these amendments do not appear to allow the government intentionally to target a U.S. person or intentionally to target 

any person on U.S. soil, it does seem that the amendments have 

the potential to result in warrantless surveillance of communications that involve U.S. citizens. 

Can you explain, in light of this potential, what steps can be 

taken, what steps might be taken in order to protect U.S. citizens? 

Mr. MUELLER. Let me just say we are concerned about both the 

thrust of the statute as well as the provisions of the statute that 

minimize the possibility of this happening. But beyond that, I 

would have to do it in closed session. 

Senator LEE. Okay. But you do share the concern that there is 

that potential and you share a commitment to taking steps to protect U.S. citizens? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes, and my understanding is as the statute was 

winding its way through Congress, those concerns were raised and 

addressed in the statute. And, yes, we fully comply and understand 

the thrust as well as the letter of the statute. 

Senator LEE. Okay. I see my time has expired. Thank you, Mr. 

Chairman. Thank you, Director. 

Mr. MUELLER. Thank you. 

Chairman LEAHY. Thank you, Senator Lee. 

Senator Blumenthal. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Good morning, and I want to join other 

Members of the Committee in thanking you for your extraordinary 

service over many years, many challenging and difficult years, on 

many challenges and difficult topics. Obviously, particularly in the 

area of terrorism, the FBI has taken an increasingly important role 

not just in terms of apprehending and prosecuting terrorism here 

in this country, but also abroad. And in the area of white-collar 

crime, you have continued to be an extraordinarily important presence. 

I would like to ask first about the JPMorgan Chase investigation. 

Can you tell us what potential crimes could be under investigation 

without asking you to conclude anything or talk about the evidence? Would it be false statements to the Federal Government or 

what area of criminal activity? 

Mr. MUELLER. I am hesitant to say anything other than what is 

available under Title 18 or available to the SEC would be the focus 

of any ongoing investigation. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. And can you talk at all about the timing 

of that investigation? 
27 

Mr. MUELLER. All I can say is we have opened a preliminary investigation, and as you would well know, having been in this business for a long time, it depends on a number of factors. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. And I am not going to press you further, 

but I would just encourage you, without your needing any encouragement, I am sure, to press forward as promptly and expeditiously 

and aggressively as possible, because I think that the American 

public really has lost faith in many other enforcement agencies, 

partly because of the delay and lack of results, and I think that the 

FBI’s involvement is a very constructive and important presence in 

this area. 

Mr. MUELLER. Thank you. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Turning to the Violence Against Women 

Act, where, again, the FBI has really been a leading role in stopping assaults and intimidation and harassment of women. As you 

know, the Senate has reauthorized VAWA—it is now under consideration in the House—with provisions on cyber stalking that seem 

less forceful and robust than the ones that we adopted and I have 

urged and drafted to adopt in this body. 

I wonder if you could talk to us about how important cyber is in 

the area of domestic violence and violence against women generally. 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, I must say I am not familiar with the differences between the two proposed statutes. I will say, on the other 

hand, that cyber stalking is—it can be difficult to define, but once 

defined, the impact is substantial on the individuals, and it is a 

growing phenomenon that does need to be addressed. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. And would you say that crimes resulting 

in domestic violence or violence against women do often involve the 

Internet and the use of impersonation and similar kinds of tactics? 

Mr. MUELLER. Increasingly, and increasingly, once you have one 

individual who is prosecuted for this and it becomes public, you 

find a number of others that would undertake the same activity, 

unfortunately. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thank you. 

Turning to another subject, drug shortages. I do not know whether you are familiar with some of the gray market activities, some 

of the potential price gouging that goes on with respect to pharmaceutical drugs that are in shortages—cancer treatment, anesthesiology drugs. The FDA was ordered by the President to refer to the 

Department of Justice any evidence of drug shortages that could 

involve either civil or criminal violations of law. I wonder if you are 

familiar with any cases that have been referred. 

Mr. MUELLER. I am not, but we may well have cases that I am 

not familiar with or aware of relating to this particular area. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. If you could get back to me on that subject 

and if you feel you are at liberty to do so, that would be helpful. 

Mr. MUELLER. I am happy to do that. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. On the ongoing investigation—I take it it 

is ongoing—with respect to East Haven in the State of Connecticut, 

is there any update that you can provide? And I just want to say 

before you answer that both the FBI and the United States Attorney’s Office and, in particular, the United States Attorney in Connecticut overall, as well as on this case, are doing extraordinarily 
28 

excellent work, and I am very proud of the great job that they are 

doing there, and I say that as one who would be critical—having 

been a United States Attorney, I am not one who would be less 

than demanding of that office, but they are doing—both the FBI 

and the U.S. Attorney there are doing great work. 

Mr. MUELLER. I am familiar with the investigation but cannot in 

open session discuss it. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. On gasoline prices, do you know of any 

uptick in criminal activity there with respect to price gouging 

or—— 

Mr. MUELLER. Have not. Again, that is something we will have 

to get back to you on. We may have seen something. I would have 

to go back and find out where we are on that. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thank you. Again, thank you for your 

great work. My time has expired, and I appreciate your being here. 

Mr. MUELLER. Thank you. 

Chairman LEAHY. Thank you very much. 

I yield now to Senator Graham, and I was going to ask Senator 

Blumenthal if he is willing to take the Chair, as I will not be coming back. I am going on to something else. Again, as I told you earlier, both publicly and privately, Director Mueller, I appreciate your 

cooperation. And some of the things, as you have said, will have 

to be in closed session. We can follow up with you privately. 

Mr. MUELLER. Thank you. 

Chairman LEAHY. Thank you. Senator Graham. 

Senator GRAHAM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you again for your service, Director. I am going to send 

you a series of questions to kind of explore further what Senator 

Lee was talking about so we will not have to use the whole seven 

minutes here talking about the details of Miranda and what an 

enemy combatant is or is not. But we are going to talk about big 

themes. 

On cybersecurity, do you have all the resources you need right 

now to defend the Nation against a cyber attack within reason? 

Mr. MUELLER. We need additional resources. We are 

reprioritizing. We are reorganizing to address cyber. We have a—— 

Senator GRAHAM. What is the risk to the Nation of a cyber attack 

in the next decade? 

Mr. MUELLER. Substantial. 

Senator GRAHAM. So would you do me a favor and just quietly 

and appropriately write down that list of needs and get them to 

me, and I will spread them to my colleagues. 

Mr. MUELLER. Have done it. Will do it. 

Senator GRAHAM. And I just really appreciate the FBI in many 

ways. 

Senator GRAHAM. Okay. Do you believe that we are in a war 

against terrorism? Is the war on terror an appropriate name to define the time in which we live? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator GRAHAM. Okay. I do, too. It is not the crime on terror. 

It is the war on terror. 

I believe that Article III courts have a place in prosecuting terrorists. Do you agree with that? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 
29 

Senator GRAHAM. Do you believe that military commissions could 

also have a place in prosecuting terrorists? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator GRAHAM. U.S. citizens are not eligible for military commission. Do you agree with that? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator GRAHAM. Just say yes because—okay. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator GRAHAM. I am not trying to trick you. 

Mr. MUELLER. I am waiting. 

Senator GRAHAM. I know, I know. 

Is the homegrown terrorist threat growing or lessening? 

Mr. MUELLER. Growing. 

Senator GRAHAM. Do you consider America part of the terrorist 

battlefield, the country itself? Isn’t that sort of what they want to 

do, is hit us here as much as anywhere else? 

Mr. MUELLER. You know, one could get into parsing the terms 

of the description. I would say that we have a terrorist threat domestically, and we have terrorist threat internationally. 

Senator GRAHAM. Right. Well, let us talk about the fact that I 

think they want to kill us everywhere, but particularly here, and 

I do not think it was an accident that they brought down the Twin 

Tower, attacked the Pentagon, and tried to attack the Capitol. 

They are coming after us. Do you agree with that? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator GRAHAM. All over the world. 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator GRAHAM. And we have a right to defend ourselves. 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator GRAHAM. Within our values. You do not support 

waterboarding, right? 

Mr. MUELLER. No. 

Senator GRAHAM. Nor do I. 

Mr. MUELLER. It does not comport with our guidelines. 

Senator GRAHAM. I agree, and I appreciate you at a time when 

it was not popular saying so, quite frankly. 

Do you believe Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is an enemy combatant? 

Mr. MUELLER. I am not going to—I will go down the road just 

so far, but in terms of the designation, I think there are a number 

of factors that go into that, so I am not going to say a yea or a nay. 

Senator GRAHAM. Well, do you believe that Al Qaeda members 

can be classified as enemy combatants since we have about 200 

and some at Guantanamo Bay? 

Mr. MUELLER. I believe so, but, again, this is dependent—— 

Senator GRAHAM. We are not holding people illegally there, are 

we? 

Mr. MUELLER. No. 

Senator GRAHAM. Okay. Now, if you caught Osama bin Laden or 

KSM or somebody like that tomorrow in the United States, would 

you suggest that the country take off the table military commission 

trials simply because the foreign terrorist was captured in the 

United States? 
30 

Mr. MUELLER. I would stay away from suggesting—that would be 

a decision for the President. My responsibility, our responsibility, 

would be to gather whatever facts, intelligence, and/or—— 

Senator GRAHAM. Right. Well, I am glad to hear you say that, because I do not believe it is the policy of Obama administration that 

foreign terrorists captured in the United States cannot be tried by 

military commissions and cannot be held as enemy combatants. 

And to Senator Lee’s line of inquiry, I do not believe we want to 

send a signal to the world that if you make it to America, all of 

a sudden you get a better deal than if we catch you in Pakistan. 

But let us talk about your job. When we capture someone that 

we believe to be affiliated with Al Qaeda in the United States, is 

it the Obama administration’s position, the FBI’s position, that 

those individuals captured collaborating with Al Qaeda in the 

United States must be Mirandized? 

Mr. MUELLER. There is no blanket rule on Mirandizing individuals of Al Qaeda in the United States. 

Senator GRAHAM. Well, okay. This is a very important. I think 

that is a good answer. Sometimes maybe it is the best thing to do; 

sometimes maybe it is not. 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, I think the policy that has been laid out is 

that intelligence comes first. 

Senator GRAHAM. Okay. 

Mr. MUELLER. And the Quarles exception to the Miranda rule, 

we have leeway to undertake—— 

Senator GRAHAM. Okay. Right. How long under Quarles—which 

had to do with a domestic crime, not a terrorism case. How long 

can you hold someone under the Quarles case before you have to 

read them their Miranda rights? 

Mr. MUELLER. I think that is still an open question. 

Senator GRAHAM. Is it two days? Is it two weeks? 

Mr. MUELLER. It is an open question depending on the circumstances. 

Senator GRAHAM. Well, I would suggest that the people we have 

held at Guantanamo Bay for years as enemy combatants could only 

be held that long because we have designated them as enemy combatants. I do not want to bastardize the criminal justice system. 

Once we use it, I want it to work the way it should. And I believe 

that if you capture someone in the United States and you are going 

to charge them with a crime in an Article III court and that is your 

intent, your ability to hold them without Mirandizing them under 

Quarles is limited. But how long can you hold someone that you 

want to put in the criminal justice system without presenting them 

to a federal court under the presentment requirements? 

Mr. MUELLER. You are required to present them generally within 

the next 24 or 48 hours. 

Senator GRAHAM. Okay. So you have got to present them to 

court—— 

Mr. MUELLER. I presume you are talking about non-U.S. citizens. 

Senator GRAHAM. Yes. 

Mr. MUELLER. Okay. 

Senator GRAHAM. So as I understand, then they get a lawyer at 

presentment, don’t they? They have to have somebody helping 

them—— 
31 

Mr. MUELLER. It depends on the circumstance. Some have, some 

have not. 

Senator GRAHAM. Okay. But my point is that you are taking a 

suspect who we believe is involved in terrorism, when you put 

them in the criminal justice system, you have Miranda issues and 

presentment issues. If you keep them in the law of war system, 

holding them as an enemy combatant for intelligence-gathering 

purposes, you do not have these problems. Is that correct? 

Mr. MUELLER. I am not certain to what extent you can make that 

blanket statement. 

Senator GRAHAM. Okay. 

Mr. MUELLER. And, also, I think there are downsides from doing 

it that are often overlooked. 

Senator GRAHAM. Do you know any requirement in the law of 

war to read an enemy prisoner their Miranda rights or provide 

them a lawyer when they are held in military custody? 

Mr. MUELLER. I am not familiar—I am not as familiar with the 

military code as you are. 

Senator GRAHAM. Well, I would just suggest—and I do not want 

to belabor this, but we have never in a war captured an enemy 

prisoner and said, ‘‘Hey, you got a right to a lawyer, here is your 

lawyer. We hold you to gather intelligence because we are trying 

to prevent the next attack, not prosecute you.’’ 

So I am going to send you a series of questions, and I want us 

to understand as a Nation that we are at war. I want to treat people fairly. I believe in all of the above. But I am not going to sit 

on the sidelines and go back to a pre-9/11 model of where the criminal justice system is the only tool available to fight this war. 

So, Mr. Director, you have got really dedicated agents who are 

putting themselves at risk, and when we capture one of these people who we believe is involved with Al Qaeda in a way to hurt us 

all, I think we should have as many options as possible within our 

values and within the law of war and the criminal justice system 

to defend ourselves. So I am going to send you some questions, and 

I am glad to hear that there is no blanket requirement by the FBI 

to Mirandize a terrorist suspect upon capture in the United States. 

So that is good to know. 

[The questions of Senator Graham appear under questions and 

answers.] 

Senator GRAHAM. Thank you. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL [presiding]. Senator Schumer. 

Senator SCHUMER. Thank you, and thank you, Director, for the 

outstanding job you and the men and women who work for you do. 

I admire it every day. 

Now, I would like to talk a little bit about relations between the 

FBI and the NYPD. Overall, it has been a great relationship; it has 

been a smooth relationship. It has been, I think, pointed to as an 

outstanding example, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, of cooperation between the Federal Government and State government and 

local government. But over the last few months, there have been 

a number of things that create a growing concern that that relationship may be fraying a little bit, particularly in regard to information sharing, which I know, obviously, you have got to be very 
32 

careful with, but these are two law enforcement agencies involved 

together in fighting terrorism. 

There have been cases where the NYPD believes it has not been 

briefed on the specifics of terrorist plots, which is the type of information they need because of New York City being a top terror target. The Joint Terrorism Task Force should know information regarding terror plots related to New York City at the same time the 

FBI knows of this information or to give our forces the best chance 

to combat terrorism. And if it cannot be known immediately, it 

should be shortly thereafter. 

We have some examples where for four or five days after it was 

even made public, they did not get the kind of detailed information 

that they wanted. 

So my question is: Do you believe there is currently a problem 

hindering communication within members of the Joint Terrorism 

Task Force? If there is a problem, what can be done about it to better facilitate communication between the two? I have great respect 

for both and have been proud of the cooperation. If there is no 

problem, will you commit today to keeping NYPD abreast of any 

and all future developments related to terrorist plots? And will you 

work with the NYPD to address the cooperation and informationsharing issues so that everybody is on the same page and can work 

together as well as they have in the past? 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, let me just start by saying that I think we 

have a very good relationship with the New York Police Department, particularly on the Joint Terrorism Task Force. We have 

tens of NYPD officers who have served on it. Many of them served 

for any number of years. 

To the extent that the New York field office gets terrorism information, it goes to the Joint Terrorism Task Force. 

Senator SCHUMER. Right. 

Mr. MUELLER. It is there. The officers from the NYPD get the information at the same time as the agents on the task force get the 

information. 

There are occasions where there is something very tightly and 

closely held in agencies, and it may be in Washington, that it takes 

some time before there is further dissemination, which makes 

sense. There are always bumps in the road. The—— 

Senator SCHUMER. Have they increased over the last months? 

Mr. MUELLER. No, I would say—— 

Senator SCHUMER. It seems to me they have. 

Mr. MUELLER. No, no. There are always bumps in the road, and 

every six months or so, Ray Kelly and I get together and discuss 

those bumps in the road and move on. So I think the relationship 

is very good and, let me just say, tremendously effective. I think 

the Joint Terrorism Task Force is effective. I think NYPD is effective at preventing attacks. And whenever you have strong-willed 

agencies and parts of agencies, you are going to have, as I say, the 

bumps in the road. I do not think there is any extraordinary action 

that needs to be taken by myself or Ray Kelly or others to address 

a current issue. 

Senator SCHUMER. Okay. And that would apply in reference to— 

I understand the difficulties, as I read in the newspaper. I did not 

know anything else. The information about the recent airplane 
33 

bomber leaked out prematurely. You do not have to comment on 

that, but are there any problems with communication on that issue 

now between the—— 

Mr. MUELLER. There should not be. 

Senator SCHUMER. There should not be, okay, because there was 

some talk that there was. 

Mr. MUELLER. I heard that talk. 

Senator SCHUMER. Okay. And have you talked directly to Commissioner Kelly about this? 

Mr. MUELLER. I have not on this issue. I met with him about a 

month ago. 

Senator SCHUMER. Would you be willing to? 

Mr. MUELLER. Sure. 

Senator SCHUMER. Great. Just a suggestion for the continued cooperation, give him a call on this, okay? He did not ask me to ask 

you to do that. I am. Okay? 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator SCHUMER. Thanks. And then one—— 

Mr. MUELLER. As I told Ray, he is always, you know—— 

Senator SCHUMER. I know. Let us not get into who calls whom. 

I am asking you to call him. 

Mr. MUELLER. I am happy to do it. 

Senator SCHUMER. Thanks. Appreciate it very much. 

There was one other instance. This was not related to the Joint 

Terrorism Task Force, but you and I talked a little about this, and 

I did not follow up. When the FBI Bureau Chief in Newark publicly 

criticized the NYPD for conducting operations that he said made it 

more difficult to protect the public in New Jersey—again, I do not 

have a problem if the FBI thinks the NYPD is doing something 

that interferes with this operation in New Jersey. I was sort of surprised that he made it public. Now, what was that all about? That 

does not help. 

Mr. MUELLER. I understand, and I have addressed the issue. 

Senator SCHUMER. You have addressed the issue? 

Mr. MUELLER. I have addressed the issue. 

Senator SCHUMER. Okay. And everyone is happy now? 

Mr. MUELLER. Not everyone. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator SCHUMER. Should I ask—— 

Mr. MUELLER. I have addressed the issue. 

Senator SCHUMER. Okay. I hear you. Let us go on to another subject. Thank you. I am glad you have addressed it, and I hope that 

does not create any future problems, because it did create bad 

blood for a period of time. 

Mr. MUELLER. I understand. 

Senator SCHUMER. Okay. Stand your ground laws, there has 

been a lot of news this week about the FBI investigating hate 

crime charges in the Trayvon Martin case. I do not want you to 

comment on the investigation, but I just want to get your opinion 

about the stand your ground laws. Are they creating more violence 

than they are preventing? 

Mr. MUELLER. I really cannot—there is that one incident we 

have. There may be others around the country. I cannot give you 

an opinion on that. 
34 

Senator SCHUMER. Okay. How about your general opinion on 

these stand your ground laws? 

Mr. MUELLER. I do not know enough about them to render an 

opinion. 

Senator SCHUMER. Okay. I would ask you, if you—again, I do not 

want to put you in any jeopardy in terms of this investigation, but 

if you wanted to think about it and had something in writing you 

wanted to send within the timeframe that the Chair has laid out, 

I would appreciate it. 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes, sir. 

Senator SCHUMER. I tend to think these are counterproductive 

and hurt law enforcement. 

Okay. I have only 33 seconds left, so I will just submit my final 

question in writing. 

Mr. MUELLER. Thank you. 

[The question of Senator Schumer appears under questions and 

answers.] 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. Thank you, Senator Schumer. 

Senator Whitehouse, I—— 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Let Senator Klobuchar—— 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. I am sorry. Senator Klobuchar is next. I 

am going to yield the gavel to Senator Whitehouse. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. I will be right back. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. As soon as he returns, and now Senator 

Klobuchar. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. [Presiding.] Thank you very much. I am the 

one standing with the gavel, I guess. 

Senator BLUMENTHAL. You now have the gavel. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. Thank you, Director, for being here. I appreciate how often you come and how we are really kept abreast 

of everything that you are doing. Many of my colleagues have 

asked about officer safety issues with the national memorial services this week. I was just with the families and police officers over 

the last two days, two officers that died in the line of duty in Minnesota; one, in fact, reported to a scene of a domestic violence case, 

a 17-year-old victim, he basically sacrificed his life for hers, and he 

leaves three young children. 

One of the things that came up at a previous hearing we had 

here on the bulletproof vest, which is incredibly important, is that 

72 of our Nation’s law enforcement officers were killed in the line 

of duty during 2011, and that is the highest number since 2007. 

It is up 20 percent from 2010. By region, 29 were killed in the 

South, 21 in the Midwest, 10 in the West, 10 in the Northeast, and 

two in Puerto Rico. 

Are you aware of any factors that would explain this increase? 

Or do you think it is just random tragic statistics? Or do you know 

how this has happened? 

Mr. MUELLER. No, I do not think anybody has a clear answer, 

although we tried to dissect those figures. I will tell you, as I indicated before, there are two things we are doing trying to reduce it. 

The first is we have changed our pistol qualifications, understanding based on our data that many of the encounters that police 

have with persons with weapons are at a very short distance, not 

at a longer distance. And, consequently, we have to increase our ca-
35 

pability of responding in shorter distances. And often when we 

change our protocols, State and local will follow as well. 

Then, second, when an individual is stopped, and they go into 

NCIC to find out the record, we will put a warning in the record 

if the person has—a warning with a response if the person has a 

violent criminal history, to alert that officer to beware. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. Very good. Thank you. And I know we have 

discussed the bulletproof vest issue, how important that is, and I 

had not known until we had a hearing with some of our police leaders about the issue with women with bulletproof vests and how 

they need different bulletproof vests, which makes sense, and how 

sometimes they do not have those, as we are seeing more and more 

women police officers. But I wanted to note that to you. 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. It is something that we need to address. 

I also know the FBI works closely with State and local authorities to keep our children safe through programs like the Child Abduction Rapid Deployment Teams and the Innocence Lost National 

Initiative. And next week, I am chairing a hearing on the issue of 

training child protection professionals. We have a good center in 

Minnesota, the National Child Protection Training Center in Winona, and one of the critical areas of training is forensic interviewing because many times a child victim may also be the only 

witness in these crimes. And according to one FBI child interviewers, methods used in adult cases may actually be counterproductive with child victims. 

I know the FBI has been doing some good work in this area, and 

as a result, the FBI child forensic interviewers’ expertise is in demand across the country. Could you tell me how the training is 

available to FBI agents? And what else can we do to help the FBI 

make progress on the problems of child abduction and abuse? 

Mr. MUELLER. We have four child forensic interviewers who are 

very qualified and do great work. They get too much of that work, 

unfortunately, and build up that expertise. We provide training to 

agents and task force officers around the country. Generally, the 

training lasts from three to four days, and the statistics for 2011 

are that we trained 650 agents and task force officers in 2011 

alone, and we will continue that. 

To the extent that there are law enforcement agencies that would 

benefit from that training, I am sure the special agents in charge 

in those particular divisions would try to accommodate. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. Well, thank you very much. I was just 

thinking back when I did a case as a prosecutor and it was a nonviolent minor case, and there was a five-year-old witness. And 

without having any of your investigative skills, I put her on the 

stand and asked her what had happened, and I said, ‘‘Now, do you 

know what the truth is? ’’ She said, ‘‘Yes, I do.’’ And she said, ‘‘But 

when I was four, I always told lies’’ She was five years old, so I 

probably could have had an investigator, and needless to say, the 

case did not go very far. 

Metal theft, this is something that I have been frustrated with. 

We have been trying to get a bill done. We introduced one last 

year, Senator Hatch and I did, on trying to look at some of the 

criminal penalties and trying to get some requirements in place 
36 

when scrap metal dealers get copper and other things, which we 

know sometimes can be stolen and sometimes now, with requirements for IDs and other things in place. And I just wondered if you 

are aware of that problem around the country with buildings blowing up and other things because of stolen copper. 

Mr. MUELLER. Yes, and it is a problem. I will not mention the 

cities, but I know it is a problem in certain cities, and such a problem that emergency services can be adversely impacted by such 

thefts. And generally what we do is if there is a discrete group or 

entity that is involved in them, then we work with the State and 

locals to put together a task force to address it. 

But as we look at the budget shortages, as we look at 

prioritization in the context of perhaps the budgets will even get 

worse down the road, this is one where it is very difficult to find 

the resources to put on it. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. I understand that. That is why I figured 

one thing we could do that would be helpful is to put some requirements in place—some States have—on the sale of these things so 

it is easier for local law enforcement to track. So I wanted to put 

the words in because you have a lot on your plate, and I think the 

best thing would be to make it a little easier for locals to handle 

this. 

I had some questions, and I know Senator Kohl got into the economic espionage issue, which I think is critically important. We 

have many big companies in Minnesota that own many patents. 

My favorite statistic is that 3M has as many employees as they 

have inventions. There is one invention for each employee. And so 

we care very much about this espionage, especially over the Internet and some of the cyber crime that is going on. So I appreciate 

the work you are doing in this area and the way that you are adjusting to the ever changing technological climate with the FBI. 

Thank you very much. 

Mr. MUELLER. Thank you. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. [Presiding.] Welcome, Director Mueller. 

Good to see you. 

Let me follow up on Senator Klobuchar’s last point on our cyber 

vulnerability. Let me preface our remarks by saying that from my 

viewpoint on the Intelligence Committee, from my viewpoint on 

this Committee, from going out and seeing your folks in action at 

NCIJTF, from looking at some of the cases that have been put together, I am very impressed with the ability and the dedication of 

the forces that you have deployed against our cyber threat. 

What I am concerned about is not their ability. It is their adequacy. It is the quantity, not the quality. I think you run some 

very, very high-quality folks, and I appreciate that. 

I went out on a limb about two years ago and said that I thought 

that the theft of American intellectual property across our cyber 

networks was the biggest transfer of wealth in the history of the 

human species through theft and piracy and that we were on the 

losing end of it and we were not taking enough action to defend 

against it. And since then, General Alexander has said virtually 

the same thing. He is the head of Cyber Command and the head 

of NSA. And private sector observers like the latest McAfee report 

have again used almost the same language. 
37 

So here we are, assuming that to be true, on the losing end of 

the biggest transfer of wealth in the history of humankind, and I 

want to ask your continued support for my office’s efforts to try to 

get a real understanding of what our FBI and DOJ resources are 

dedicated to this problem. 

You have to really drill below the numbers, because I can ask 

DOJ and they can say, oh, well, there is a cyber person dedicated 

in every U.S. Attorney’s Office, and I know perfectly well from having been a U.S. Attorney that that person may very well be doing 

no cyber cases at all. They may simply be the designee who puts 

the conference call on mute while they are doing other work. 

So just that number does not really help, and so we are trying 

to work through who is really on this cyber problem and how within the FBI. Are there people who are designated in your local offices who are in the same mode when there is a conference call to 

be had, they are the ones who take it but their workload is really 

elsewhere? Are there folks whose role is really sort of forensic 

clean-up, the people who, you know, when you raid a place, they 

grab the computers and they do the download? That is all important stuff, but it is not really the cyber battle. 

One of the things that I am concerned about is that when you 

look at the metrics of cases that are produced, again, I see some 

great cases, but I do not see a ton of them. In terms of beating 

down the botnets that attack our systems through denial of service 

attacks, you guys helped, I think, both take down the Coreflood 

and the Rustock botnets. Those were a very big deal. The Rustock 

botnet made a really measurable dent in the amount of spam that 

is out there on the Internet. But there is still a ton of that stuff 

going on, and two great cases but it is not a lot of cases. 

I am informed that if you look at intellectual property theft 

through cyber as the means, hacking into an American company’s 

computer, accessing their confidential data, their formulas, their 

secrets, exfiltrating that out and then using that to compete 

against the company, we have made exactly zero cases; that in all 

of the cyber cases that we—all the intellectual property theft cases 

that we have made, there has been a human link. We have found 

the guy who is downloading it to a disk and putting it in his pocket. 

My impression from my visit to the NCIJTF is that they are 

standing in front of a fire hose trying to do their very best to manage around just an immense amount of work. And from what I 

hear from private-sector folks, they would love to have more FBI 

and more federal law enforcement support when they have been 

hacked. 

Now, nine times out of ten, they do not even know they have 

been hacked. They get told they have been hacked when your folks 

or Homeland Security come knocking on the door and say, ‘‘By the 

way, you might want to consider looking at this file.’’ 

But once they do know, having more support from you guys I 

think is—I think you are doing a great job with the resources you 

have, but I just feel that we are at a stage where this has become 

such a big problem, both as a national security problem to our electric grid, to our financial system, to our communications networks, 

if somebody decides to take those down, and as an industrial espio-
38 

nage problem against our major competitive industries, and as a 

privacy problem. There is probably somebody in this room right 

now whose credit card and Social Security information is on some 

Estonian gangster’s Web site for sale. There is just so much of it 

for sale right now. 

And so there are all of these issues, and I feel that we need— 

in the same way that we had to move from just having a couple 

of aircraft in the U.S. Army years ago, we have got to have an Air 

Force on this one; that we need to be thinking about really what 

is the next step, how should we structure this. It is not enough just 

to add incrementally. We really need to kind of go ‘‘game on’’ on 

this. 

So I would like your thoughts on that point. I know that OMB 

is a bit of a hazard for folks when you are being asked to argue 

beyond your allocated budget. But I would at least like to ask you 

to participate willingly and helpfully and continue to, because I 

have good support so far in trying to help work this through. We 

are trying to get something into the cyber bill that will at least put 

a structure into analyzing what our law enforcement posture 

should look like, how should it be resourced for the future. We have 

got a DEA. We have got an ATF. We have got a Secret Service. 

Maybe we should be thinking of building something that is equivalent for cyber as we look out. 

What are your thoughts? 

Mr. MUELLER. Let me start by saying I share your concern about 

putting the country and the Bureau in a posture to address this, 

and it is going to take a substantial reorientation of the Bureau to 

address this. 

In terms of personnel—and one of the things that too often we 

do is we take pockets of the cyber issue and forget about them. And 

within the Bureau there are a number of initiatives we have undertaken over a period of time that fall within the cyber umbrella. 

Certainly the NCIJTF is one of them, and I think perhaps one of 

the most important of them. But, also, every one of our 56 field offices has cyber squads in which those individuals are doing cyber 

work. 

Now, there are intrusions, and then there are cases—innocent 

images cases, quite obviously, that fall within that. But I would say 

that as we grow, the intrusions are perhaps more important. You 

hate to say that but, more importantly, need a different skill and 

need a different effort. 

My discussions with our people are that we have to reorient the 

Bureau to address cyber in the same we reoriented the Bureau to 

address counterterrorism. That means beefing up our cyber squads 

and making them task forces, because you do not know where the 

cyber intrusion is going to occur, and you need to do the forensics 

in order to start the evaluation of attribution, much less the criminal case. And, consequently, it has to be distributed across the 

country, and the expertise has to be distributed across the country. 

Now, it takes more of a headquarters role because, inevitably, in 

most of these, with it being botnet or what have you, you have victims in all the 50 States, and it may have started on Romania or 

Morocco or what have you. And, consequently, the old way of allocating responsibility to the office of origin or the first U.S. Attorney 
39 

who happens to get the subpoena in to the grand jury does not 

work in this environment. And so what we are working with in the 

Bureau is putting together a distributed—— 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. And if you do not mind me interjecting, 

plus in those cases you really do not have a criminal case. You 

have a civil effort to shut it off, which Rustock and Coreflood did 

brilliantly, but it is hard to sort of tee that up within the FBI’s 

structure when there is no criminal case contemplated when you 

are—— 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, we look at it as national security—I mean, 

this is one of the problems that you have in cyber. At the time of 

the cyber intrusion, you do not know whether it is a state actor, 

you do not know whether it is organized crime or organized crime 

working for a state actor, or an individual or group of individuals 

who are not necessarily organized but distributed the anonymous 

type of attacks or, last, the 18-year-old who is particularly adept 

and wants to make his mark or her mark by intercepting. And so 

you cannot immediately put it into a cubbyhole of national security 

or this particular crime. 

Consequently, NCIJTF with its 18 counterparts and with the distributed network, in my mind, gives us the ability to identify that 

intrusion, work on that intrusion with DHS protecting the infrastructure, but our gathering the information and helping on identifying the attribution for that particular tack. 

I do believe that something like the Regional Computer Forensics 

Laboratories—yes, they do the exploitation, but it is the same expertise that you need to do the attribution in terms of a cyber attack. So we have got 16 of them. I would love to have more of 

those. 

There are other aspects of the organization, the FBI organization, that have to be integrated. You can have cyber attacks that 

are undertaken by terrorists. It can be by state actors or espionage. 

And you need in both of those expertise as to who are the terrorists 

who would undertake it or who were the countries and the intelligence agencies of those countries who would undertake it. And, 

consequently, you have to merge the cyber expertise along with the 

substantive expertise in that particular area, and we are reorganizing to do that. 

Bottom line, there is a long way to go for all of us, but it is a 

sharing of intelligence and developing the capability to take that 

intelligence and work with not only our persons in the United 

States but within NSA, CIA, and the others outside, which that 

will enable us to be successful in this particular arena. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Good. Well, I really thank you for the excellent work that the Bureau is doing on this, and I look forward 

to working hard to make sure that you have got the resources as 

well that you need. 

I will close by observing that these cases are immensely complicated and difficult. If you look at the complicating factors that 

make a case difficult, it has virtually all of them. It has probably 

the worst complicating factor of international domain and having 

to work through legats and having to work through treaties and 

having to work in foreign countries. It has the complicating factor 

of, as you pointed out, integration with our intelligence community 
40 

and having to deal with the security and classified nature of some 

of that and protecting sources and methods. 

The cases themselves are challenging and difficult, as difficult as 

any RICO case can be. The forensics are very important, trying to 

figure out how this stuff actually works and be able to testify about 

it clearly. And then there is just a lot of work putting it together 

because some of these things are very big operations. 

So when you combine all of that, each case could really be a huge 

vacuum for effort in order to succeed. So I think that is an important appreciation that I wanted to put into the record as we go 

about building this. This is not like buy-bust gun cases where you 

can knock them off, you know, one after another. These are the 

kinds of cases that could simply swamp a small U.S. Attorney’s Office and present immense challenges. 

Mr. MUELLER. Well, that is where we push resources, and we 

have to be far more flexible. We have to have virtual teams addressing these cases. Both of us have done RICOs. We could do 

RICOs. And these cases are complicated, but one thing that often 

is lost is there is a warm body behind that computer. And what you 

want to do is identify those individuals and arrest them and incarcerate them so that there is deterrence. You can talk about protecting the networks. You can talk about tracking the signature 

back to some particular country. But then there has to be action, 

and that is where our role comes in. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Well, I appreciate it. I think I am the last 

person standing in this hearing, so I will call it to its conclusion. 

I thank you for coming up, as you have so often done, to face the 

oversight of this Committee. You always do so very professionally, 

and your organization is first rate. So we are always delighted to 

have you here. 

The record will remain open for one additional week in case 

there is anything further that anybody wishes to submit. But the 

hearing is closed. 

Mr. MUELLER. Thank you. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Thank you. 

[Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

[Questions and answers and submissions for the record follow.] 
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A P P E N D I X 

ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
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PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN PATRICK LEAHY
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PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT S. MUELLER, III 
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QUESTIONS
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RESPONSES FROM HON. ROBERT S. MUELLER, III 
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MISCELLANEOUS SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD
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