UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

=------------------------~ 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

REDEMPTION AIR, INC. 

Respondent 

=------------------------~ 

Tuesday, 

October 11, 2016 

FDMS No. 

FAA-2014-0115 

1 

The teleconference convened, pursuant 

to notice, at 3:00p.m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE DOUGLAS M. RAWALD, 

U.S. Administrative Law Judge 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nea!rgross.com 
APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

GLENN BROWN, ESQ. 

of: Office of the Regional Counsel 

Alaskan Region 

222 West 7th Avenue 

Box 14 

Anchorage, Alaska 99513 

(907) 271-5271 

glenn.brown®faa.gov 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

PATRICK BERGT, ESQ. 

of: Law Office of Brent R. Cole, P.C. 

821 North Street 

Suite 208 

Anchorage, Alaska 99501 

(907) 277-8001 

patrick®akcolelaw.com 

Also Present: 

JACKIE BOOKER, Attorney Advisor 

NEAL R. GROSS 

2 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
3 

1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 3:02p.m. 

3 JUDGE RAWALD : This is a prehearing 

4 conference in the case of Redemption Air, docket 

5 No. FAA-2014-0115. Today's date is October 11th, 

6 2016, and it's 3:00 p.m. Eastern Time. 

7 This is Administrative Law Judge Doug 

8 Rawald. Joining me in the conference is the 

9 Government attorney, Mr. Glenn Brown. Also an 

10 attorney from Respondent counsel office, Mr. 

11 Patrick Bergt. With me in my office is an 

12 attorney advisor, Jackie Booker. 

13 The reason why we're having this phone 

14 call is we had a prehearing conference back on 

15 July 20th, 2016, which we agreed to tentative 

16 dates for this hearing and also to look at 

17 further out the venue options while we were doing 

18 that. And we agreed to a date of February 13th, 

19 2017. 

20 And I was looking at whether we could 

21 have this hearing in Kodiak, Alaska. I have 

22 found it to be essentially impossible to get 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
4 

1 Kodiak, Alaska as a venue given the fact that the 

2 hearing space there has very limited window 

3 availability and none of those dates worked for 

4 all the parties, including myself. 

5 We're settling on Anchorage for the 

6 place to have the hearing. I just wanted to firm 

7 the dates that counsel were available. As I 

s understand it, Mr. Cole is no longer available 

9 February 13th, nor is Mr. Brown. So what I want 

10 to look at is other dates and when actually 

11 people are available. 

12 Mr. Brown, is that right, you're no 

13 longer available February 13th? 

14 MR. BROWN: I'm not recalling saying 

15 that I'm not available, but -- I'm not recalling 

16 that. I'm sorry. If I -- I may have early in a 

17 conversation with one of your support staff. I'm 

18 not recalling who it was. I'm sorry. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: All right. Mr. Brown, 

2 o so Ms. Org, my administrative assistant, said 

21 that she had spoken to you and you said that you 

22 possibly had some training or some sort of class 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 W\foNI/. nealrgross.com 
5 

1 the. Valentine Day week, which is that week in 

2 February. 

3 MR. BROWN: Oh, okay. In that case, 

4 then that's probably correct, although I don't 

5 have it written on my calendar at the moment. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well, Mr. Bergt, 

7 is Mr. Cole no longer available February 13th? 

8 MR. BERGT: That' s correct, Judge, 

9 he's no longer available during the month of 

10 February or March. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. I am going to be 

12 in Anchorage the week of April 24th through 28th 

13 for another hearing, and so what I wanted to see 

14 is whether folks are available that week before 

15 or the week after, possibly. And so, Mr. Bergt, 

16 going with you first because Mr. Cole's schedule 

17 seems pretty booked up, is there any availability 

18 between April 19th and May 3rd for Mr. Cole? 

19 MR. BERGT: Your Honor, that would be 

20 fine by us. I do believe we do have availability 

21 during that time. Mr. Brown and I have 

22 previously spoken before this hearing and had 

(202} 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
6 

1 discussed a possibility of April 3rd or April 

2 lOth. Would those dates be too early for Your 

3 Honor? 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: The problem is I would 

5 have to fly back and come home and then go back 

6 there. And so, if I can save the Government some 

7 money and fly up there one time to Anchorage to 

8 both these cases, which would work best for them 

9 -- so if I could do the 19th to the 21st with you 

10 folks, that would be really ideal, I think, from 

11 my point of view. 

12 MR. BERGT: I think we could make that 

13 work, Judge. I'll defer to Mr. Brown. 

14 MR. BROWN: Your Honor, yes, I 

15 apologize. I thought I had something -- I know 

16 I've got something toward the end of April. I'm 

17 looking for those exact dates. My apologies. If 

18 you can give me just a minute. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: That's okay. 

20 MR. BROWN: I'm scheduled to teach a 

21 class April 21st through May the 1st, and that's 

22 -- let me get my calendar here. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
7 

1 JUDGE RAWALD: April 21st is a Friday. 

2 MR. BROWN: Right. So the week of the 

3 17th would work if we started on the 17th. I 

4 could do that. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: What day are you 

6 traveling? 

7 MR. BROWN: I would probably travel on 

8 the 19th. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

10 MR. BROWN: Because I'd need a day to 

11 prepare once I get there and then start the class 

12 on Friday the 21st. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Then let's shoot 

14 for that. I'll shoot for April 17th as our 

15 hearing date and I will work with the folks at 

16 the Anchorage courts to get that squared away. 

17 So would you leave the night of the 

18 19th or would you have to -- would you be able to 

19 be available for the 19th? 

20 MR. BROWN: Well, I would be -- first 

21 of all, Your Honor, I think this case can easily 

22 be handled in a day, perhaps a day-and-a-half. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
8 

1 Probably what I would do though is schedule -- my 

2 flight on Wednesday would be probably the 7:00 

3 a.m. flight, because that's what I'm taking 

4 tomorrow, because I'm heading down there again to 

5 the same class. So probably I would not be 

6 available that morning. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Right, so it would be 

8 a two-day hearing. 

9 And, Mr. Bergt, in talking then with 

10 Mr. Cole do you think two days would be 

11 sufficient? 

12 MR. BERGT: I do believe this case 

13 could be tried on two days, Judge. And looking 

14 at my calendar, I'm looking at Mr. Cole's 

15 calendar, at least one of us should be available 

16 during that week. So we're flexible. We'll 

17 accept those dates should the Court deem 

18 appropriate. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So I'll go ahead 

20 and look at April 17th through 18th for this 

21 case, and I will talk to folks in Anchorage about 

22 that. Okay. Good. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
9 

1 And when last we spoke Mr. Cole and 

2 Mr. Brown, at least someone commented that a 

3 settlement would be reached, so this wasn't going 

4 to be an issue. How are things going on that 

5 front? 

6 MR. BROWN: We reached an impasse, I 

7 guess, is the simplest term, Your Honor. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

9 MR. BERGT: My notes indicate the 

10 same, Judge. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And so is there 

12 any possibility of reengaging, or you think 

13 nothing is going to happen in the future here? 

14 MR. BROWN: Well, I mean, our offer 

15 still stands, but I understand that that's not 

16 one that Mr. Stanford is willing to accept. So 

17 my guess is it's not likely that things will 

18 change. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

20 MR. BERGT: My understanding, Judge, 

21 is that we ought to prepare for trial. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And, well, Mr. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com 
10 

1 Bergt, please let him know that the hearing will 

2 be in Anchorage. That may persuade him one way 

3 or the other as far as the extent of going to 

4 Anchorage as opposed to heading to Kodiak for a 

5 hearing. But anyway. 

6 Okay. So I' 11 ask you folks to at 

7 least take another shot somewhere in the next few 

8 months to settle, but we will unlikely see that 

9 and have an April 17th hearing in this case. 

10 Anything else for us to discuss, Mr. 

11 Brown? 

12 MR. BROWN: No, Your Honor. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And, Mr. Bergt? 

14 MR. BERGT: No, Your Honor. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well, I thank 

16 you both for helping me out here and I will get 

17 back to you soon as we have a set court date. 

18 Thank you very much. 

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

20 went off the record at 3:09p.m.) 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
A 

a.m8:3 

able 7:18 

above-entitled 1 0: 19 

accept8:17 9:16 

administrative 1:19 3:7 

4:20 

advisor 2:21 3:12 

agreed 3:15,18 

ahead 8:19 

Air 1:5 3:4 

Alaska 2:6,15 3:21 4:1 

Alaskan 2:4 

AMERICA 1:1 

Anchorage 2:6,15 4:5 

5:12 6:7 7:16 8:21 

10:2,4 

anyway 10:5 

apologies 6:17 

apologize 6:15 

APPEARANCES 2:1 

appropriate 8: 18 

April5:12, 18 6:1,1,16 

6:21 7:1,14 8:20 10:9 

assistant 4:20 

attorney2:21 3:9,10,12 

availability 4:3 5:17,20 

available 4:7,8,11, 13,15 

5:7,9,14 7:19 8:6,15 

Avenue 2:5 

B 

back3:14 6:5,5 10:17 

Behalf 2:2,9 

believe 5:20 8:12 

Bergt 2:11 3:11 5:6,8 

5:15,19 6:12 8:9,12 

9:9,20 10:1,13,14 

best 6:8 

booked 5:17 

Booker2:21 3:12 

Box2:5 

Brent2:12 

Brown 2:3 3:9 4:9,12,14 

4:19 5:3,21 6:13,14 

6:20 7:2,7,10,20 9:2,6 

9:1410:11,12 

_ _,c'<__ - -- calendar5:5 6:22 8:14 

8:15 

call 3:14 

case 3:4 5:3 7:21 8:12 

8:21 10:9 

cases6:8 

change 9:18 

class 4:22 6:21 7:11 8:5 

Cole2:12 4:8 5:7,18 

(202) 234-4433 

8:10 9:1 

Cole's 5:16 8:14 

come6:5 

commented 9:2 

Complainant 2:2 

conference 3:4,8,14 

convened 1:12 

conversation 4: 17 

correct 5:4,8 

counsel2:4 3:10 4:7 

court8:17 10:17 

courts 7:16 

___ D 

date3:5,18 7:1510:17 

dates 3:16 4:3,7,10 6:2 

6:17 8:17 

day 5:1 7:5,10,22 

day-and-a-half 7:22 

days8:10,13 

deem 8:17 

defer6:13 

DEPARTMENT 1: 1 

discuss 10:10 

discussed 6:1 

docket3:4 

doing 3:17 

Doug 3:7 

DOUGLAS 1: 18 

E 

early 4:16 6:2 

easily 7:21 

Eastern 3:6 

ESQ2:3,11 

essentially 3:22 

exact 6:17 

extent 10:3 

F 

FAA-2014-01151:5 3:5 

fact 4:1 

far 10:3 

FDMS 1:4 

February 3:18 4:9,13 

5:2,7,10 

fine 5:20 

firm 4:6 

first 5:16 7:20 

flexible8:16 

flight 8:2,3 

fly 6:5,7 

folks5:14 6:10 7:15 

8:21 10:6 

found 3:22 

Friday7:1,12 

front 9:5 

further 3:17 

future 9:13 

G 

give6:18 

given 4:1 

Glenn 2:3 3:9 

glenn.brown@faa.gov 

2:7 

go6:5 8:19 

going 5:11,16 9:3,4,13 

10:3 

Good 8:22 

Government 3:9 6:6 

guess 9:7,17 

----~----

--- H_.__ __ _ 

handled 7:22 

happen 9:13 

heading 8:4 10:4 

hearing 3:16,21 4:2,6 

5:13,22 7:15 8:8 10:1 

10:5,9 

HEARINGS 1:2 

helping 10:16 

home6:5 

Honor5:19 6:3,14 7:21 

9:710:12,14 

HONORABLE 1:18 

ideal6:10 

impasse 9:6 

impossible 3:22 

including 4:4 

indicate 9:9 

issue 9:4 

J 

Jackie 2:21 3:12 

Joining 3:8 

Judge 1:19 3:3,7 4:19 

5:6,8,11 6:4,13,19 7:1 

7:5,9,13 8:7,13,19 9:8 

9:10,11,19,20,22 

10:13,15 

July 3:15 

___ K ___ _ 

know6:1510:1 

Kodiak 3:21 4:1 10:4 

L 

Law 1:19 2:12 3:7 

leave 7:17 

let's 7:13 

limited4:2 

longer4:8,13 5:7,9 

look3:16 4:10 8:20 

Neal R Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC 

11 

looking 3:20 6:17 8:13 

8:14 

---- M 

M 1:18 

March 5:10 

matter 1:4 10:19 

mean 9:14 

minute 6:18 

moment5:5 

money6:7 

month 5:9 

months 10:8 

morning 8:6 

_ _ __,N.._ __ 

need 7:10 

night 7:17 

North 2:13 

notes 9:9 

notice 1:13 

0 

October 1:8 3:5 

offer 9:14 

office 1:2 2:4,12 3:10 

3:11 

Oh 5:3 

okay 5:3,6,11 6:19 7:9 

7:13 8:19,22 9:8,11 

9:19,22 10:6,13,15 

once 7:11 

opposed 10:4 

options 3: 17 

Org 4:20 

ought9:21 

__ P 

P-R-0-C-E-E-D-1-N-G-S 

3:1 

P.C 2:12 

p.m 1:13 3:2,610:20 

parties 4:4 

Patrick2:11 3:11 

patrick@akcolelaw.c ... 

2:17 

people4:11 

persuade 10:2 

phone 3:13 

place 4:6 

please 10:1 

point 6:11 

possibility 6:1 9:12 

possibly 4:22 5:15 

prehearing 3:3,14 

prepare 7:11 9:21 

Present 2:19 

pretty 5:17 

www.nealrgross.com 
previously 5:22 

probably 5:4 7:7 8:1,2,5 

problem 6:4 

pursuant 1:12 

Q ----- ---"'-------

---- -- ~--=----

_R ~ -----

R2:12 

Rawald 1:18 3:3,8 4:19 

5:6,11 6:4,19 7:1,5,9 

7:13 8:7,19 9:8,11,19 

9:22 10:13,15 

reached 9:3,6 

really 6:10 

reason 3:13 

recalling 4:14,15,18 

record 10:20 

Redemption 1:5 3:4 

reengaging 9:12 

Region2:4 

Regional2:4 

Respondent 1:6 2:9 

3:10 

right 4:12,19 7:2 8:7 

s 

save6:6 

saying 4:14 

schedule 5:16 8:1 

scheduled 6:20 

see 5:13 10:8 

set 10:17 

settle 10:8 

settlement 9:3 

settling 4:5 

shoot7:13,14 

shot 10:7 

simplest 9:7 

soon 10:17 

sorry4:16,18 

sort4:22 

space4:2 

spoke 9:1 

spoken 4:21 5:22 

squared 7:16 

staff4:17 

stands 9:15 

Stanford 9:16 

start 7:11 

started 7:3 

STATES 1:1 

Street2:13 

sufficient 8:11 

Suite 2:14 

support 4:17 

_____ T.~---

(202) 234-4433 

take 10:7 

talk 8:21 

talking 8:9 

teach 6:20 

teleconference 1: 12 

tentative 3:15 

term 9:7 

thank 10:15,18 

things 9:4,17 

think6:10,12 7:21 8:10 

9:12 

thought 6:15 

time 3:6 5:21 6:7 

Today's 3:5 

tomorrow 8:4 

training 4:22 

TRANSPORTATION 

1:1 

travel7:7 

traveling 7:6 

trial 9:21 

tried 8:13 

Tuesday 1:8 

two 8:10,13 

two-day 8:8 

u 

U.S1:19 

understand 4:8 9:15 

understanding 9:20 

UNITED 1:1 

v 

Valentine 5:1 

venue3:17 4:1 

view6:11 

w 

want4:9 

wanted 4:6 5:13 

wasn't 9:3 

way 10:2 

We'll8:16 

we're 3:13 4:5 8:16 

Wednesday 8:2 

week5:1,1,12,14,15 7:2 

8:16 

went 10:20 

West2:5 

willing 9:16 

window4:2 

work 6:8,13 7:3,15 

worked4:3 

written 5:5 

X 

y 

z ~------· 

0 

1 

10th 6:2 

111:8 

11th 3:5 

13th 3:18 4:9,13 5:7 

142:5 

17th 7:3,3,14 8:2010:9 

18th 8:20 

19th 5:18 6:9 7:8,18,19 

1st 6:21 

~-- -- -~ ~ 

2 

20161:8 3:6,15 

20173:19 

208 2:14 

20th3:15 

21st 6:9,21 7:1,12 

2222:5 

24th5:12 

271-5271 2:6 

277-80012:16 

28th 5:12 

-----· ·---

3 ----- ----

3:001:13 3:6 

3:02 3:2 

3:0910:20 

3rd 5:18 6:1 

-

4 --~-

5 ~ ~~ 

- -

6 --

7 -~ 

7:00 8:2 

7th 2:5 

-

--- 8 

821 2:13 

--

9 ---

907 2:6,16 

995012:15 

99513 2:6 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC 

12 

www.nealrgross.com 
13 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Redemption Air, Inc. 

Before: USDOT/OH 

Date: 10-11-16 

Place: teleconference 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

Court Reporter 

(202) 2344433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com