U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800

Fax: (202) 512–2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402–0001

49–513 PDF 2014

S. HRG. 111–1175 

INVESTING IN SMALL BUSINESS: JUMPSTARTING 

THE ENGINES OF OUR ECONOMY 

ROUNDTABLE 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND 

ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

JANUARY 29, 2009 

Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana, Chair 

OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, Maine Ranking Member 

JOHN F.KERRY, Massachusetts 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

TOM HARKIN, Iowa 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

EVAN BAYH, Indiana 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland 

JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire 

KAY R. HAGAN, North Carolina 

CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Missouri 

DAVID VITTER, Louisiana 

JOHN THUNE, South Dakota 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia 

ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi 

DONALD CRAVINS, JR., Democratic Staff Director 

WALLACE HSUEH, Republican Staff Director 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS

Page 

Landrieu, Hon. Mary L., Chair, and a U.S. Senator from Louisiana .................. 1 

Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L., a U.S. Senator from Maryland ................................. 2 

Shaheen, Hon. Jeanne, a U.S. Senator from New Hampshire ............................ 4 

Isakson, Hon. Johnny, a U.S. Senator from Georgia ............................................ 4 

Bayh, Hon. Evan, a U.S. Senator from Indiana .................................................... 11 

WITNESS TESTIMONY

Adams,Timothy, President and CEO, Systems Applications & Technologies .... 5 

Alford, Harry, President and CEO, National Black Chamber of Commerce, 

Washington, DC ................................................................................................... 5 

Coratolo, Giovanni, Executive Director, Small and Mid-market Business 

Councils, U.S. Chamber of Commerce ................................................................ 5 

Eckerly, Susan, National Federation of Independent Business ........................... 5 

Ferreira, David, United States Hispanic Chamber of Commerce ........................ 5 

Hernandez, D’Juan, President and Chief Executive Officer, Sun Energy .......... 5 

Littlejohn, Virginia, Chief Executive Officer and Founder, Quantum Leaps ..... 5 

McCracken, Todd, President, National Small Business Association ................... 6 

Sharpe, Joe, Deputy Director of Economics, American Legion ............................ 6 

Sullivan, Ann, Women Impacting Public Policy .................................................... 6 

Swift, George, President and CEO, Chamber Southwest and the Southwest 

Louisiana Economic Development Alliance, Lake Charles, LA ........................ 6 

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Adams,Timothy 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Alford, Harry 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 52 

Bayh, Hon. Evan 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 11 

Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L. 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 2 

Coratolo, Giovanni 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 35 

Eckerly, Susan 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Federal Highway Administraton 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 56 

Ferreira, David 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Hernandez, D’Juan 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Isakson, Hon. Johnny 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 4 

Landrieu, Hon. Mary L. 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 1 

Littlejohn, Virginia 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

McCracken, Todd 
Page

IV 

—Continued 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 6 

NFIB: The Voice of Small Business 

Report titled ‘‘411 Small Business Facts’’ ....................................................... 32 

Shaheen, Hon. Jeanne 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 4 

Sharpe, Joe 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 6 

Sullivan, Ann 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 6 

Swift, George 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 6 
(1) 

INVESTING IN SMALL BUSINESS: 

JUMPSTARTING THE ENGINES OF OUR 

ECONOMY 

THURSDAY, JANUARY 29, 2009 

UNITED STATES SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP, 

Washington, DC. 

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:09 a.m., in Room 

428–A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Mary L. Landrieu 

(chair of the committee) presiding. 

Present: Senators Landrieu, Bayh, Cardin, Shaheen, and 

Isakson. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARY L. LANDRIEU, CHAIR, 

AND A U.S. SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA 

Chair LANDRIEU. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the first 

hearing of the Senate Small Business Committee in this Congress. 

Let me first welcome all of the members of the Small Business 

Committee who will be joining us throughout this two-hour roundtable. 

I also would like to thank particularly our panelists who have 

joined us. We are anxious to hear your comments, your suggestions 

and your concerns about some of the issues before the Congress. 

Before I introduce our panelists, let me just make a few brief 

opening remarks and then turn to my colleagues and ask them for 

a brief opening statement, and then we will try to get right into 

the questions this morning. 

The title of our panel, Investing in Small Business: Jumpstarting 

the Engines of Our Economy, I think is very appropriate for the situation that we find ourselves in. Our economy is struggling to get 

traction to create jobs and to sustain the jobs that we have. As you 

know, the focus of this Committee is going to be, has been and will 

continue to be, how the Federal Government can be a better, 

stronger, more reliable partner for the entrepreneurs and small 

businesses that make up a significant section of this economy. 

I would like to mention that my ranking member, Senator 

Snowe, was planning to be here this morning, but she had the 

happy occasion to be called by President Obama to join him in a 

signing of the Ledbetter legislation. So that is where she is. Hopefully she will be joining us later today. 

We want to hear from our panelists today, again from business 

owners and advocates and from organizations representing a vari-
2 

ety of small businesses. We want to hear how this Committee, this 

Congress and the Federal Government can be stronger, more reliable partners for creating the kind of environment that entrepreneurs need to succeed. 

I am particularly proud to welcome the Louisiana panelists who 

are here, George Swift and D’Juan Hernandez. They have done a 

wonderful job, specifically in Louisiana, representing areas of the 

state that were very hard hit in the last several years by natural 

disasters. So, I welcome them particularly. 

Let me mention quickly that under Senator Kerry and Senator 

Snowe’s leadership, this Committee held several hearings and 

roundtables last year focused on the credit crunch, and on how we 

could do a better job in terms of tax policy or investment policy to 

ease that crunch. That crunch has now turned into a crisis in many 

ways for small businesses across our country, and we are anxious 

to hear about that from your perspective. 

Unfortunately, just this week, on Tuesday the Labor Department 

released new unemployment numbers. Two million Americans have 

lost their jobs in the last four months, and the nation’s average unemployment rate stands at 7.2 percent. In some of the areas, geographic areas that are represented here, those numbers are higher. 

Thankfully, in some places, Louisiana being one of them, those 

numbers are lower for a variety of different reasons, but we do recognize that it is a very difficult situation. 

Today as we begin—and I turn to my colleagues for their opening 

remarks—please do not feel constrained to limit your comments to 

just the workings of the SBA. Although this Committee has jurisdiction over the Small Business Administration, I want and I think 

the leadership of Senator Snowe as Chair and also of Senator 

Kerry as Chair, broadened the reach of this Committee to really be 

an advocate for small business, to give you a platform, to give you 

a voice, so that we can hear as members of Congress some of your 

immediate concerns and hopefully, with you, fashion some real solutions. 

So with that, let me turn it over, in order of attendance, first to 

my good friend Senator Cardin from Maryland, who has been a 

senior, almost a senior member now of this Committee. We have 

several new members, and I will introduce them in a minute. Ben, 

we are happy to have you here this morning. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM MARYLAND 

Senator CARDIN. Well first let me say what a pleasure it is to 

have Senator Landrieu as the Chair of this Committee. I really 

look forward to working on this Committee and helping small business and helping our country by the work of this very important 

Committee. So it is a real honor to be here on the Committee under 

your leadership. 

It is wonderful to have Senator Shaheen with us on the Committee, and we welcome her to the Small Business Committee. 

Madam Chair, let me thank you for convening this as our first 

meeting of the Committee and bringing together individuals who 

can really help us understand what is happening out in the com-
3 

munity as far as small businesses are concerned, minority businesses, woman-owned businesses. 

I just tell you, my constituents are angry by the manner in which 

the Government has so far responded to the economic crisis. The 

TARP program is not very popular, and I think for good reason it 

is not popular. A lot of money has been put out and Americans say 

that unless you are a big company, your chances of getting help is 

not very great. 

And they look at the fairness of what our country has done. In 

this morning’s paper I read where major banks that have been 

coming in or financial institutions that have been coming in asking 

for assistance from the Federal Government just issued significant 

bonuses to their employees. 

This angers my constituents, and it angers me. So as we look at 

the use of the second half of the TARP money and as we are now 

considering an economic stabilization bill of $825 billion on the 

floor of the United States Senate, I want to make sure that small 

businesses, minority-owned businesses, women-owned businesses 

will get the type of help that is needed for our economy to grow. 

I want to make sure that we have a fair program and provide 

fair assistance. President Obama said that we need to have a Federal involvement that will create jobs. I agree with that. We need 

a Federal involvement that will invest in America’s future so that 

when we come out of this recession, we have the tools in place for 

America to grow. 

If we do not have small businesses and minority businesses and 

women-owned, we know we will not have the job growth that we 

need in this country, because that is where the jobs are created in 

America. So we want to make sure that at the end of the day we 

have in place the companies that will permit this nation to once 

again exercise its economic strength and its growth. 

I really do look forward to the presentations from the panel 

today. I know we need to do a better job with the tools that are 

available under the SBA. The cost of loans are prohibitive for many 

companies. I know we have to take a look at our tax code and we 

know that the Senate Finance Committee and the Appropriations 

Committee have made certain recommendations and we will be 

considering them next week on the floor. We welcome your 

thoughts as to how effective those provisions would be in making 

sure that small businesses can continue to exist and thrive in our 

economy. 

Madam Chair, I do want to recognize Tim Adams, who is here 

from the State of Maryland. Tim has been a personal friend and 

advisor to me on small business issues and has a leadership position in Prince George’s County, Maryland with the business community. Tim, it is nice to have you here and I thank you for joining 

us. 

I notice there are other members of the panel that are listed 

from Washington, D.C., but I am concerned that they may very 

well be Marylanders, so let me welcome everybody here. 

[Laughter.] 

Harry Alford. I have to specifically mention Harry because his 

two sons are here, who are also residents of Maryland. So I welcome all the Marylanders who happen to be here today. 
4 

Chair LANDRIEU. As a good politician, he has covered all of his 

bases this morning. 

[Laughter.] 

Chair LANDRIEU. Governor Shaheen, let me welcome you not only 

to the Senate, but to this Committee in particular. I think your expertise as a former governor and leader from your state will bring 

immeasurable benefit to us. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JEANNE SHAHEEN, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you very much, Chair Landrieu. I am 

delighted to be appointed to this Committee because, like you and 

like Senator Cardin, I appreciate the importance of small businesses to the country and to job creation. 

It is a particular interest for me as someone representing New 

Hampshire because most of New Hampshire’s employees are in 

businesses that have 10 or fewer employees. Just to put it in a little better context, 94 percent of New Hampshire companies have 

fewer than 100 employees. They employ close to half of the state’s 

labor force and approximately 85 percent of all New Hampshire 

companies employ 19 or fewer employees. 

I know I take my life in my hands when I use a Red Sox metaphor, but to put it in perspective, New Hampshire has enough 

small business employees to fill up Fenway Park about six times. 

So small business is clearly the engine that drives New Hampshire’s economy. As we all know, it is one of the engines that drives 

the U.S. economy. 

I appreciate that it is business, especially small business, that 

creates jobs, it is not the government. I also know that the government has a role to play and particularly in these tough economic 

times, we want to make sure that we are doing everything possible, 

whether it is through the economic stimulus package or other policy proposals, that can benefit and help small businesses grow. 

I am delighted to be here on this Committee to try and work in 

a way that is going to promote small business throughout the country and throughout New Hampshire. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you, Governor. We have also been joined 

by Johnny Isakson, our great Senator from Georgia. We are happy 

to have you Senator, and we are just offering opening remarks. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHNNY ISAKSON, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM GEORGIA 

Senator ISAKSON. I am going to be very brief. I was a small business person. It is the heart and soul of the American economy. It 

employs most of the American people and right now we are in a 

very serious, difficult time in the credit markets, which is impacting small business. 

So I am looking forward to hearing from the panelists today on 

what they see going on, what they think we can do in government 

to be a catalyst in any way to help energize small business, because if we energize small business and we solve our current credit 

crisis, business will take us out of the recession that we are in. But 

all the money in the world is not going to take us out if it is not 

empowering business to do business. 
5 

I am delighted to be here, Madam Chair, and I appreciate the 

opportunity to participate. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. Well, let’s begin, because this is 

what we are here for—to hear from you all. I would like our participants, if you do not mind, starting with you, Mr. Adams, to go 

around very briefly, to introduce yourselves and either your business or your association and then I will open it up with the first 

question to the entire panel. But just a brief introduction. 

Mr. ADAMS. Good morning, Senator. I would like to take a moment—— 

Chair LANDRIEU. If you would turn your mike on and state just 

your name and your organization. 

Mr. ADAMS. Okay. Good morning. My name is Timothy Adams. 

I am the President and CEO of Systems Applications & Technologies. We are a defense and homeland security firm located corporately out of Maryland. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Okay. 

Mr. Alford. 

Mr. ALFORD. Madam Chair. I am really glad to see you here and 

to kick this off. I am Harry Alford, President and CEO of the National Black Chamber of Commerce, located here in Washington, 

D.C. We have 151 chapters within the United States, 40 chapters 

abroad. 

Mr. Adams is on our board and Mr. Hernandez is on the board 

of our Greater New Orleans chapter, and we are very happy to be 

here. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Mr. CORATOLO. Giovanni Coratolo. I am the Executive Director 

of the Small and Mid-market Business Councils for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Mr. Adams is also part of our councils and part 

of the chamber. Mr. Swift is also very closely aligned with the U.S. 

Chamber of Commerce. I am very happy to be here and congratulations on the chairmanship. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. We welcome the Chamber. 

Ms. ECKERLY. Susan Eckerly from the National Federation of 

Independent Business. We are located here in Washington, as well 

as in every state capital. Thank you. 

Mr. FERREIRA. David Ferreira, United States Hispanic Chamber 

of Commerce. We represent the interests of three million Hispanicowned businesses throughout the country, especially 200 chambers 

throughout the country and 20 Hispanic industry associations. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Wonderful. 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. D’Juan Hernandez. I am President and Chief 

Executive Officer of Sun Energy, which is a renewable energy company headquartered in the City of New Orleans, and we are one 

of those small businesses that are driving the economy today. 

Also, as Mr. Alford mentioned, I am a member of the Board of 

Directors of the New Orleans chapter of the Black Chamber, and 

we are certainly happy to be here. Thank you for inviting us. 

Ms. LITTLEJOHN. Virginia Littlejohn. I am Chief Executive Officer and Founder of Quantum Leaps, which is a global accelerator 

for [inaudible] native New Orleanean, former resident of Maryland. 

My husband—— 

[Laughter.] 
6 

Senator CARDIN. Then you went and moved to New Hampshire? 

[Laughter.] 

Chair LANDRIEU. And may I observe that her attire is quite appropriate for today in that it is the first day of Louisiana Mardi 

Gras. So thank you. A true New Orleanean. 

Todd. 

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Good morning. I am Todd McCracken. I am the 

President of the National Small Business Association. In addition 

to representing small businesses all over the country, we are also 

a Federal umbrella group for state, local and regional small business organizations across the country. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Pull the mike as close to you as you can. I am 

sorry we do not have one for everyone. 

Mr. SHARPE. My name is Joe Sharpe. I am Deputy Director of 

Economics for the American Legion, which is a veterans service organization. 

Ms. SULLIVAN. I am Ann Sullivan. I am representing Women Impacting Public Policy that has 500,000 women business owners 

across the country and 46 organizations belong to our coalition. 

Mr. SWIFT. I am George Swift, President and CEO of the Chamber Southwest and the Southwest Louisiana Economic Development Alliance in Lake Charles, Louisiana. We represent over 1,000 

small businesses in the Chamber Southwest and we have our 

Chairman of the Board, Ken Broussard, with us today also. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Well, let me welcome you all. I would like to 

suggest how we would like to move forward. I am going to pose a 

few questions. If you want to respond, place your card in an upright position. We ask you to respond briefly. So you may want to 

pull your card to you, and when you want to be recognized, push 

your card out. 

We are going to try to make this a very informal and lively discussion. We really encourage our members of the Committee to 

jump in. Let’s begin by just throwing out the question to any of 

you. What are the main challenges that either you as a business 

owner or your organizations are facing? 

If you could limit it to one or two minutes, and tell us what you 

would like to communicate to those listening and observing this 

roundtable about the urgency or not of your particular situation. 

Mr. Hernandez. 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. Senator, I would like to certainly emphasize 

that the issue for small businesses today is about liquidity. It is 

about capital access. There certainly are programs available 

through the Federal Government, through the state government, 

certainly through local government, but those programs have certainly tightened up in recent years and recent months in particular. 

We all know the state of the credit markets today and lenders 

just are not providing access to capital in the way that small businesses need it today to be able to take advantage of the opportunities that the Federal Government may create by stimulation. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Coratolo. 

Mr. CORATOLO. I want to re-emphasize that access to capital is 

the number one—— 
7 

Chair LANDRIEU. Can you speak into the microphone, and I am 

so sorry we do not have one for everyone. 

Mr. CORATOLO. I want to re-emphasize that access to capital is 

the number one issue for small business. We put out a survey to 

thousands of people nationally and it was through our friends at 

the Chamber. The two things, the two items that they would most 

want to see in a stimulus package is tax cuts or incentives to grow 

their business, but also access to capital comes a very close second 

as to the main priority within the stimulus and that is through cutting the fees for SBA loans. 

This is unprecedented. If you talk to small businesses in the 

past, normally SBA issues tend to fall to the bottom. In this case, 

they really rose to the top, even above infrastructure payments. 

Quite frankly, this makes this Committee a very pivotal and important Committee to small businesses and as you know, 60 to 80 

percent of the jobs are created through small business. 

Chair LANDRIEU. I am glad you raised that. I think, Jeanne, you 

wanted to comment. Senator Shaheen. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Well, I wanted to ask a follow-up to both of 

you, and that was to ask about SBA and whether you are feeling 

like—you mentioned the fees, Mr. Coratolo. Is it just the fees or are 

you finding that there are not enough people at SBA who can provide the help that businesses need as they are trying to figure out 

how to get access, or is it that the underlying funding isn’t there 

for SBA? 

Can you be a little more specific about what particular challenges are relative to SBA? 

Mr. CORATOLO. Oh, absolutely. I think SBA has some fantastic 

programs, but we find ourselves in an economic crisis. The few 

bucks that we give from the Federal Government to SCORE and 

some of the other programs, SBDC, Veterans business programs, 

are critical right now. We have to make sure that they are well 

funded in this type of environment. 

Obviously access to capital raises to the top, but we also have to 

make sure that we have these other programs in place in order 

to—and well funded—in order to make sure that we have the infrastructure in place to handle the future of small businesses. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Senator Cardin. 

Senator CARDIN. Just to follow-up on Senator Shaheen’s point. 

The Committees are recommending waiving the fees under the 7(a) 

Program and I think also under the 504 Program. Waiving the fees 

obviously make it more advantageous from a cost point of view. 

The cost of the SBA loans can become prohibitive, so I understand the waiving of the fees being extremely important. But I 

think Senator Shaheen was trying to get out if we waive the fees, 

will the banks make the loans, or do we need to do more in order 

to make sure the credit will be available, not just the cost of credit, 

but that there is credit? 

Mr. CORATOLO. Oh, absolutely. More needs to be done, because 

part of that, an important element of that is the secondary markets. Banks have a very—infrastructure currently that makes the 

loan, sells the guaranteed portion into the secondary market. 

Now currently that secondary market is frozen. We have to make 

sure that we have adequate assets, whether it is through TARP or 
8 

TALF, to make sure that there is liquidity into that second market 

so that banks could recapitalize funding for loans to small business. 

Now remember one thing, we are giving money or incentives to 

banks to make these loans. They do not get one penny of this unless they make the loan. So that is the important factor in this. 

They are incentivized to make loans and reducing those fees. 

Do not create a new program. Let’s fix the one that is currently 

on the books that has worked well for years. 

Chair LANDRIEU. I want to recognize Senator Isakson and then 

I would like to go to Mr. McCracken and then come back to Mr. 

Alford. 

Senator ISAKSON. Mr. Coratolo has hit on—we can stay here all 

day and talk, but he has hit on the key point that is the problem 

in the United States. There is no liquidity in the debt markets for 

anything. Nothing is flowing. Small businesses are suffering, as are 

big businesses. 

Waiving fees on something that is not going to close does not do 

you any good. What we have got to do is focus a little bit on the 

banking industry and the finance industry, because to me, they are 

doing what I am doing. I am holding on to all the cash I have got 

right now because things are tough. And my kids are doing the 

same thing. And I think the banks are doing it because they are 

not sure where the bottom is in terms of this economy. 

What we have got to do in the United States Congress are those 

things that will stimulate people to do business and begin to bring 

the markets back. That is the key to it. It is not going to be 

waiving fees and it is not going to be passing a lot of regulations. 

When I say stimulation, with all due respect to the House bill, 

I am talking about the type of tax stimulation and credit depreciation, bonus depreciation, things of that nature, allowing to depreciate capital purchases up to a certain amount and incentivize business to do business and then the banking industry will come back 

over time and bring the liquidity you are talking about to the secondary market as well. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. McCracken. 

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Yeah, I just wanted to respond specifically to 

Senator Shaheen’s question and that is, the Fed reiterated this 

week that they are prepared to purchase these secondary small 

business loans, the loans in the secondary market. The degree to 

which that has happened is not clear because that market continues to be not where it needs to be. 

So we think the primary thing that needs to happen, in addition 

to eliminating the fees and increasing the guarantee rate, which I 

think are crucial to making this happen, is there has to be market 

fees alone, which does not exist today. The only available place we 

have right now is the Fed. They have begun buying home mortgages, but these small business loans in the secondary market, 

temporarily that is something they have got to do or else this is 

not going to happen. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Does anybody have a number or an estimate of 

what it would cost the Federal Government to actually secure that 

secondary market; has anybody or any of your organizations 

crunched those numbers or prepared any testimony? 
9 

Mr. Alford, do you want to jump in? 

Mr. ALFORD. Let me go back to the SBA, Senator Shaheen. The 

SBA is dormant. There was a time in the early nineties, mid-nineties, where I knew the name of every district director of the SBA 

in the country, knew his deputy director, knew the PCRs, knew the 

business opportunity specialists, and you could go to Los Angeles, 

to Chicago, to Kansas City and get businesses to sit down and they 

would get technical assistance and they knew that the SBA was 

their best resource. It is gone. It has been emaciated from a funding in ’93 of 960 million to about 420 million today, maybe at 30 

percent strength. 

There is no SBA. In terms of TARP, TARP was not meant for 

small business, particularly minority business, as not one minority 

business in this nation has been included in TARP contracting wise 

or lending wise, and contracting is our focus more than capital systems. 

We think you get the contract then you get the capital, you get 

the bonding. We have got a good bonding program that has been 

tested in Mississippi. Governor Barber has embraced it. We are 

ready to roll it out nationally. We would like to see the SBA to 

come by and just take a look at it. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Ms. Sullivan. 

Ms. SULLIVAN. Well maybe I am jumping ahead a little, but you 

raised the question about what could we do to stimulate the market for small business, the credit market? So we came up with 

what we consider a big idea, but one that we hope you would consider putting into place. 

We believe that an equity-funded SBA is necessary for stable 

businesses that want to merge or acquire other businesses with additional capabilities to their own or their weaker competitors frankly that will otherwise go out of business. It would not only save 

jobs, but it would also create jobs. 

Let me just tell you how we arrived at this. We made a bunch 

of calls to our members and said, will tax breaks make you hire 

somebody? What will make you grow in this economy? And the answer came back—and we asked people in like Ohio, Indiana, you 

know, depressed places, and people that are suppliers to auto industry or retail or housing—and they said well demand is not going 

to go up, so the only way that we can possibly grow is by merging 

with other small businesses that either bring us additional capabilities or frankly this is the time where you buy up your competitor and spread your cost. 

So our idea is that SBA already has an SBIC program and while 

that may not be a very robust program at this time, we feel that 

you could use that model too. If you appropriated funds to an equity fund and you allowed the investment companies to take part 

of accessing that capital, we feel that that would free up something 

that right now we can not get through the banks or any other 

place. 

So that is our idea. It was run by a lot of people for the stimulus 

package and we have kind of been told that the stimulus package 

did not want new program starts. But we would argue this is not 

an entirely new program start because you have already got a 
10 

model in place that if expanded and perhaps simplified and made 

attractive to investment companies, we would have some money for 

mergers and acquisitions for stable businesses, not startup businesses, but people that are in a position to grow and have cash 

right now. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Well this is a new and refreshing idea. Does 

anyone want to comment on it? 

Mr. Hernandez. 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. Absolutely, Senator. We have an organization 

in New Orleans that is basically called Start Up New Orleans. It 

is really a combination of many small business owners who have 

started businesses in New Orleans post-Katrina, and we have real 

discussions about what the issues are, at least that we are experiencing as businesses. 

The thing that is always at the top of the list, I do not care when 

we meet and when we talk, is capitalization and access to capital 

is our issue. We have talked about why doesn’t the government 

take funds that have been directed for economic development, use 

some portion of those funds for equity use? Why can’t the government stimulate equity investment, particularly in this time in our 

economy where equity holders have lost a lot of their valuation in 

the market? 

They are pulling back on their investments in the market now. 

They are changing their risk profiles and looking at how am I 

going to make money in the future. 

Well when that happens, I think government’s got to step in and 

say okay, we will shore up those equity bases for you. If you have 

got an economic development fund in the city of New Orleans, for 

instance, that is a $5 million fund. Why can’t you take that $5 million fund, get some form of shore-up from the SBA of a $5 million 

match, and then maybe get the business community to step in and 

match that $10 million? 

Now you have got an equity fund that you can start to lure entrepreneurs to your community with. But in New Orleans, and I 

say New Orleans because that is where I am and that is where my 

relevant experience is today, in New Orleans we as entrepreneurs 

cannot raise money. We spend time in New York. We spend time 

in California. We spend time in Boston looking for equity sources 

to fund our businesses. 

And for a guy like me that is in the renewable energy business, 

listen, I am on the front end of the most significant economic trend 

to hit our country probably in the last 20 years. We are building 

power generation facilities using renewable resources. Everyone we 

talk to says that is a fantastic idea, best thing I have heard in my 

lifetime. 

Great. Can we have some money? Well, that is another discussion. That is the issue that we are all facing as entrepreneurs and 

I would just like to encourage this Committee to look at creative 

out-of-the-box mechanisms to spur investment in companies. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Adams. 

Mr. ADAMS. Yes. Following along the line that I think [inaudible] 

discuss as well as we talk about small business is also understanding what I like to refer to in my organization as being and 

that is a tweener, those businesses that are emerging from the 
11 

small business arena, some considered too large to be small and too 

small to be large, which we refer to more formally as the mid-tier 

businesses. 

I think the mid-tier businesses at this time are really poised to 

create jobs and to move forward. Historically they have been 

incentivized to grow, but at the current time, it is a concern as to 

whether or not to grow at this point. To grow out of the small business at this point would mean a much greater competition between 

the much larger businesses. 

As an example, if we average 30 million a year, one year we are 

a small business, the next year I am now immediately competing 

against, for example, Lockheed Martin, who has 40 billion in revenues. They refer to it as being a level playing field. 

It is obvious that this is not a level playing field. I think one of 

the things that is very important at this point as we talk about creating equity and being able to do these things is that the SBA— 

and we strongly look at creating a mid-tier or a mid-size business 

program. 

I think other countries around the world have mid-sized enterprises, but we only have large and small. I think it is very important that we move forward, looking at a mid-size business program. 

Chair LANDRIEU. I would like to second that. I have long been 

an advocate, even well before I got on this Committee, of really 

being puzzled by the definitions that we use in this country of 

small business. I think it takes our focus away from the real start 

up entrepreneurs of four, five, six employees, and what special help 

they need as they begin to get started and then as they grow to 

that 50 or 75 or 100 level, and then they take the next leap to a 

much higher level. 

I do not think our SBA, with just the small and large definitions, 

which seems to get very confusing as far as this Chair is concerned, 

is sufficient. So, I want to second that and hopefully this Committee can review that designation through the year. 

We are joined by Senator Bayh, a senior member of this Committee. Senator, we are happy to have you here. We gave opening 

remarks briefly. Is there anything you would like to say or add to 

this discussion? 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. EVAN BAYH, A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM INDIANA 

Senator BAYH. Just to congratulate you on your chairmanship, 

Senator Landrieu, and to say this hearing could not be more timely. Small businesses generate the vast majority of new jobs in our 

economy and so at a time like this when we are all focused on creating new jobs, there is no better place to focus. 

And finally, at the time we are providing hundreds of billions of 

dollars for some of the largest companies and financial institutions, 

so why not focus upon the most dynamic part of our economy and 

that is small business. 

So I congratulate you on your leadership and thank you for having the hearing. I am just looking for good ideas that will help our 

people. I know you are too. 
12 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you, Senator. We have had several this 

morning. I am going to turn to Ms. Littlejohn and then I am going 

to go to the next question. 

Ms. LITTLEJOHN. I just wanted to say, I think the equity fund 

idea that Ann Sullivan mentioned is very interesting and builds on 

the SBIC model, so I think that can really make sense. 

To your point, Madam Chair, the rest of the world—and I have 

been living overseas most of the last five years—but the rest of the 

world does not call it small business. The rest of the world has a 

micro enterprise category and then they have small and medium 

enterprises. I think one of the big mistakes that we have made as 

a country is that we have not really looked at that growth continuum by the word ‘‘small’’ and I think looking at small and medium and different kinds of policies and financial mixes, access to 

markets, et cetera, to really grow businesses along the continuum 

is important. 

As we look at trying to overhaul the SBA so that it is more appropriate to the needs of the business community, I think we might 

look at the small and medium as well as the entrepreneurship 

piece because we are just kind of locked in in subsets. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. 

Mr. Swift. 

Mr. SWIFT. I just want to echo what has been said about the access to capital as being the biggest issue. We do find, as Ms. 

Littlejohn said, the micro enterprise businesses and we categorize 

those five and under. Employees have tremendous potential to 

grow and grow our economy and those are the businesses that have 

a tough time going to the bank. They have a tough time sometimes 

being taken seriously, but I think that is potential growth. 

As an area that has had significant disasters, we have had four 

hurricanes in the last three years with the major one, Hurricane 

Rita, in 2005. After that, we had over 3,000 applications for SBA 

emergency grants. It took months and months and months for most 

people to find out that they were not going to get the loan or that 

it was so complicated they did not want to go with it. 

In Hurricane Ike, which happened September of this past year, 

September 13, that was a Saturday. Hurricane Ike hit Southwest 

Louisiana and Galveston, Texas area Saturday morning. Saturday 

afternoon we talked to the Louisiana Economic Development Department. They set up a conference call with SBA. 

We had SBA counselors arrive in Lake Charles Sunday night. 

We opened the business counseling center at 8:30 a.m. Monday 

morning. There was a world of difference in the response and the— 

but what we found, we had over 300 businesses come in for assistance, but I think a lot of people and a lot of businesses had a feeling that it is no use to go through the SBA procedure. They had 

done that before and so I think we need to let them know that procedures have been changed and that there is some possibilities for 

assistance. 

I think a lot of them are burned out on the system, so that would 

be an area that we could emphasize. The small businesses, micro 

enterprises need some access to capital. On the disaster side, let 

them know that procedures have been improved vastly. I do not 

think you could get any faster response than the storm hit Satur-
13 

day and the business assistance center opened Monday morning. I 

want to congratulate the SBA for moving that fast. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. This Committee had a great deal 

to do with the reforms after Katrina and Rita, because it was such 

a pitiful and inadequate response initially. So this Committee did 

a tremendous amount of work and actually passed a reform disaster response bill. 

But as has been noted, and as one of the key authors of that, let 

me be quick to say, that is not enough. We must do more because 

we need a streamlined approach after catastrophic disasters so that 

businesses can get back up quickly. This may actually have some 

bearing on the situation we are in, which is not a natural disaster, 

but you could say a man-made disaster, a financial collapse disaster, that we are all experiencing now of similar proportion to 

what we went through with the winds and the waters of these 

storms. Senator Cardin? 

Senator CARDIN. I just wanted to make a brief point in regards 

to size, because I think this is an issue that this Committee really 

needs to take a look at. There’s so many different definitions for 

eligibility for government partnerships. 

We have been working with the chair on the surety bond issues 

with small construction companies. When you take a look at the 

limits that they place on the amount of the surety bond or the revenues that a company has, it really does not work today. So I think 

it is more than just the number of employees and the eligibility for 

the major programs within SBA. There is also a lot of other definitional issues that I think are preventing the full potential of economic growth for small companies. 

So I think we really do need to take a look at this and I think 

this point has been well made. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Okay, let me throw out another question. Following up on this credit crunch issue and the lack of a secondary 

market, what about the lack of willingness, which may be quite rational, although it is not helpful, on the part of banks to lend? As 

Senator Isakson pointed out, where is the bottom? People get very 

nervous when they can’t feel it. 

If you have ever swam in a lake or a pool, you always want to 

know where that bottom is and that is symbolic of what is happening in the economy. People can not feel it, the bottom, and it 

is very disconcerting. 

But given that, would anyone like to comment on the use of credit cards and the rates being charged to the small business, the cost 

of capital now? As businesses struggle to stay afloat, what are you 

hearing from your members about the rates? I guess they are paying using credit cards primarily as access to credit? Let me start 

with you, sir. 

Mr. SHARPE. I really can not answer that question directly. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Can you speak into the mic? 

Mr. SHARPE. But from the veterans’ perspective, I am an Iraqi 

veteran. I was in Baghdad with the Civil Affairs Unit. Our mission 

was to redo the Iraqi economy. That was one of our primary focuses. 

We had a microloan program. We trained Iraqi’s how to start 

their own businesses. We helped them find a business, and we also 
14 

helped current Iraqi businesses partner with the large western 

companies that were coming into the country. 

And the fact that the military recognized how important that 

was to bring stability in that country, a lot of veterans that are 

here now feel the same thing should happen in this country. SBA 

should have a direct loan program. In Iraq, the banks were not 

loaning to the Iraqi companies, so the military did it until we were 

able to restructure the banking system. 

Chair LANDRIEU. You know, Joe, I am so glad you brought that 

up. Joe, Mr. Sharpe, is mentioning something. I just had the opportunity to actually welcome home the Fourth Mountain Brigade that 

came back to Fort Polk, which is where they will come back to before they move to the rest of the country. 

Interestingly enough, many of the officers spent a good part of 

that day sharing with me how proud they were of this micro-lending program because it felt like to them that that was the most 

concrete way that they were able to help. When the Fourth Mountain Brigade got to the east part of Baghdad, which was a very difficult area, and secured it, one of the tools that they felt worked 

the best was giving small loans; I think it was five—I am not sure 

of the amount, so I do not want to quote the amounts. They said 

when they arrived, there there was virtually no market. When they 

left, there were thousands of stalls and markets reestablished, so 

I do not want to underestimate the value of this method. 

Mr. McCracken, what about credit cards and credit? 

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Regarding credit cards, there has been an extraordinary trend for quite awhile of small businesses using credit 

cards as an important source of credit and capital. We started 

doing surveys as a small business community almost 20 years ago 

and found that at that time one in seven companies saw credit 

cards as an important source of credit and capital for them. 

Today it is very nearly half of small companies that use credit 

cards as an important source of credit and capital and so it is 

hugely important. We have—but today, we have a system where 

the credit cards that they use, the terms of those cards can change 

really at any moment. We have seen people who have seen the 

terms on their cards go up dramatically. We have seen people who 

have lost what they thought was a substantial line of credit entirely that they are depending upon. 

I mean, credit cards have largely replaced the traditional line of 

credit that many businesses had over the years as we have seen 

the consolidation of banks in this country over the last 20 years or 

so. 

Chair LANDRIEU. I am going to call on Ms. Eckerly in a minute, 

but, would you repeat that statistic—that one out of every seven 

was normal and now it is one out of every? 

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Now it is half. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Half. And those rates can fluctuate over night? 

Lines of credit can be canceled over night? 

Mr. MCCRACKEN. And small businesses are in a curious position 

now because some of the credit cards they use are personal credit 

cards. Some of the credit cards they use are business credit cards. 

They do not always themselves know which is which because they 
15 

are not really sold to them very differently by the credit card companies. 

We have a new rule from the Fed that is going to sort of, in a 

couple of years at least, put a lid on some of these practices, but 

it only applies to the personal cards. And so small businesses still 

are not going to really know which cards some of these packages 

will apply to and which they won’t. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Ms. Eckerly. 

Ms. ECKERLY. Yes. We actually just did an access to credit poll 

recently. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Please remember to press your buttons. 

Mr. ECKERLY. We recently did an access to credit poll and we actually asked some of these questions, what is the biggest change 

you had? Was it line of credit? Was it reduction in your line of 

credit? Was it change in your interest rates? 

What we had was the most frequent change, 41 percent. This is 

a survey of 800 small businesses, less than 250 employees, not just 

our members. The most frequent change was a lower credit limit, 

41 percent. Another 35 percent had their interest rate raised and 

6 percent had their card canceled. I will be happy to give you this 

survey. 

Chair LANDRIEU. We would like to submit that for the record. 

Anyone else on this credit card or crunch issue? Go ahead, Mr. 

Ferreira. 

Mr. FERREIRA. Thank you, Chairwoman, for the invitation. Regarding the credit card use, surveys of our members show that only 

28 percent of them report that they have no credit card or installment debt. That is generally reflective of lack of access to capital 

that many of the minority-owned and Hispanic-owned companies 

generally have. 

But those that do report having credit card debt may use a lot 

of creative language in reporting the relationships that they have 

with their credit card company and issuing banks. Generally the 

punitive fees, the administration of them, they consider to be almost borderline predatory. 

We would like to very much echo also Mr. Sharpe’s comment 

about the need for direct lending programs given that many of the 

smallest entrepreneurs are having a very strong problem being 

able to reach sources of capital right now and when everybody else 

is leveraging down, the only institution right now, as we can see 

from the TARP, that can leverage up is the Federal Government. 

Obviously we would echo the comments of Mr. Sharpe that a direct lending program would be extremely beneficial. As far as the 

TARP is concerned, we are not entirely sure what TARP stands for 

because troubled assets never got purchased and that goes straight 

to the point of balanced books and Wall Street got balanced. But 

generally speaking, liquidity down Main Street, especially down 

Main Street in minority communities throughout the country, has 

not been addressed. 

With that, we would like to also strongly advocate for the need 

of community investment, a community investment, the use of 

CDFIs and other institutions by which we try to make direct investment into the communities. We know that small businesses are 

the ones that generate 60 to 80 percent of the new jobs and those 
16 

underserved communities are left out very frequently for many of— 

participation in many of these programs. 

Chair LANDRIEU. I am going to call on Ms. Eckerly to add something representing the National Federation of Independent Businesses on this subject, and then I would like to move to the issue 

of tax cuts or tax relief, if we could. 

Ms. ECKERLY. One of the other things our access to credit poll 

found was how heavily—and it is not surprising—small business 

owners are using their—the reduction of real estate values has 

really killed them because they are so heavily mortgaged, their 

first, second or third mortgage. So one of the reasons lines of credit 

are getting cut is because their real estate valuations have declined. I just wanted to add that. 

Chair LANDRIEU. So you can really see the circle of this effect 

very clearly with businesses or entrepreneurs sometimes using equity in their home to finance the startup of their business, or using 

a combination of home equity and credit card lines to get started, 

hoping that sometime soon a bank might step in. 

When you have values decreasing so rapidly in your home, credit 

card companies raising your interest rate, and banks even more reluctant to step in and help you, you understand why we really are 

in an extremely, extremely tough situation and unprecedented. 

On that note, I would want to make a point that I hope will get 

picked up in our response. I do not know where it is coming from 

when I hear either from the Administration or sometimes from 

Congress that we do not want to think about new programs and 

new starts. This is me speaking, not this Committee. 

I do not think we are going to get out of where we are unless 

we think about new approaches, new ideas and new programs, because I am not sure that we have the patterns on the books to 

merely rely on the old programs that already exist. I think we 

must be much more open to some new thinking, and that is hopefully what this roundtable will help spur. 

Can I throw out, unless my other members have anything, a 

question on tax policy? We are not a tax writing Committee, but 

under my chairmanship, we want to be a tax cut or tax policy advising Committee to the Finance Committee that has ultimate jurisdiction in the Senate. 

This Committee has in the past, and I am going to continue that 

tradition, been a strong advocate of small business tax issues, from 

reform of healthcare, which is a very difficult issue for small business, to general tax policy that needs to be changed or modified. 

In the Senate markup on finance—several of our members serve 

on the Finance Committee—the loss carry-back provision has been 

included. The small expensing provision has been included, bonus 

depreciation, small business capital gains, expansion of the work 

opportunity tax credit, and new market tax credits. Would any of 

you like to comment on any of these, or additional tax provisions, 

that you either find helpful or things that you would like to suggest 

that are not in here that perhaps should be as we consider this tax 

portion on the floor of the Senate? 

I will start with you Mr. McCracken and then go to Susan and 

then Ms. Sullivan. 
17 

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Thank you very much. We are pretty supportive of the things that are in the package but think there are 

some things that would be even more helpful if they were included 

in the package. 

I would like to preface just briefly with, one of the things we 

have to remember when we are thinking about jobs and the creation of jobs through small companies is not just the existing businesses being able to expand, although that is extremely important. 

We also have to remember the dynamism that is the small business community where businesses are constantly starting and 

dying and merging and there is this constant motion in the small 

business community and a lot of the job growth comes from new 

business startups. 

We all have to be thinking about how we are creating an environment where new businesses want to start. And usually when we 

come out of a recession like this, small businesses are the ones that 

lead us out. A lot of people who got laid off from big companies see 

this as well, I am going to take these lemons and make lemonade 

and go out and start that business I have been thinking about for 

years. 

They do that by getting a second mortgage on their house, by 

taking some money out of their 401k plan, by relying on credit 

cards. For the reasons we all know and discussed today, those 

three options are extremely limited to people right now and they 

may be non-existent. 

The other consideration that people have when they are thinking 

about starting a business is where am I going to get my health insurance? I just want to raise specifically to that point, the self-employment tax on health insurance. We have had occasion in the last 

month to learn a lot about the self-employment tax nationally recently and many folks do not realize that small business owners, 

self-employed people, are the only workers in the economy that do 

not get to deduct the cost of their health insurance against their 

self-employment tax, that is, their FICA tax, and they pay both 

halves of the FICA tax, 15 percent. 

If they work for somebody else or they are the CEO of a C Corporation, every last dime of the health insurance, whether they 

paid it or the company paid it, is exempt from FICA tax on both 

halves. But that is not true for the self-employed. 

It strikes us that you could help access to health care, help encourage people to be able to afford to start a business by being able 

to afford healthcare. Make the tax system more equitable and put 

money in the pocket of the self-employed by the simple thing that 

everybody else already has. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Do we have a score for that? Has that been considered before? 

Mr. MCCRACKEN. About $20 billion for 10 years. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Twenty billion over 10 years? 

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Well that score is a little bit old, but that is 

what it was. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Okay, Ms. Sullivan and then Ms. Eckerly. 

Ms. SULLIVAN. We appreciate all the tax breaks that are included 

in the stimulus package. The feedback we get is helpful, but we are 

going to hang onto the money. It is not really going to stimulate 
18 

anything really. But there is one thing that I think we may have 

overlooked that might help stimulate some additional investment 

in small business and that is giving the angel investors an incentive to invest in small businesses. 

If we could give them a tax break, I think that might be another 

source where they are going to free up a little more capital. Some 

experts say that companies seeking angel investment typically 

need between $25,000 and $500,000 and approximately 15.1 percent of new business founders surveyed in an entrepreneurial assessment say they need between 25,000 and 500,000 from an external source. 

So we would encourage you to think about giving angel investors, 

who are an important piece of this, additional tax incentives. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Alford. Well, Ms. Eckerly and then Mr. 

Alford. 

Ms. ECKERLY. I totally agree with what Todd said about the selfemployed tax deduction. But even more, what he brought up with 

the score of $20 billion over 10 years underscores to me how— 

granted, that $20 billion is not a small amount of money. When 

you look at the size of the overall stimulus package and how much 

is geared to small business, that is to me chump change. 

That is why we argued for a payroll tax holiday, because there 

is no money coming into small business right now. Either the employees do not have money, or neither does the employer, and a 

payroll tax holiday only on the FICA would give substantial relief 

to both. 

Beyond that, Todd brought up startups. How about increasing 

the startup deduction? It is currently $5,000 if you start a business. 

Increase it to 20. That is another idea that would help. Beyond 

that, we agree with the expensing, but it is only one year expensing in the Senate package. How about making it two years? The 

net operating loss is only one year. How about making it five 

years? 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Alford. 

Mr. ALFORD. Madam Chair, taking off from what Mr. Hernandez 

says about creative ways in New Orleans. One creative way in New 

Orleans in terms of surety bonds, Senator Cardin, we brought 

agents from Boston and New Jersey to write bonds for businesses 

in New Orleans. The waste removal contract in the French Quarter 

was bonded by a Boston agent. That woke up the local bonding 

community in New Orleans and they are on board now. 

In terms of financing, we got Alaska native corporations, who are 

cash rich, billion dollar companies, but still are in the 8(a) program, to joint venture on Corps of Engineer projects. They brought 

the money. We found the contracts, worked with the Corps. They 

brought the money. So there are some creative ways. 

New market tax credits are good as long as they are not used to 

gentrify urban communities, such as the south side of Chicago or 

East Cleveland. It is good for the community if the residents are 

not transplaced. Here in Washington, D.C., in the Shaw District, 

when I came to D.C., D.C. was 80 percent black. Today it is 55 percent black. What happened to those people? They are in Prince 

George’s County. 
19 

Mr. Adams’ property values are getting hurt by that. They are 

being pushed out. So I do not think new market tax credits, the 

intent was to transplant people of ill means and replace them with 

people of good means. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Who else? Go ahead. I am sorry. 

Mr. CORATOLO. Tax cuts go hand in hand with access to capital 

as far as stimulating the economy and invigorating the small business community and certainly we commend you or commend the 

Senate on their approach over the House’s approach. 

Tax cuts have to be robust, timely, temporary and properly targeted in order to have immediate effect and immediate stimulus. 

I certainly agree with my colleagues on different approaches and 

other things that can be added. One thing that I will point out is 

cancellation of indebtedness. I commend the Senate for having that 

in the Senate package. It certainly could go further. 

Another thing is the 3 percent repeal on Government contracting 

withholding. The House version has a complete repeal. The Senate 

has a one-year delay. This is very onerous to small businesses. It 

should be repealed completely based on the fact that we are going 

to have millions of—or billions of dollars going into rebuilding 

America. 

The amount of money that is put into infrastructure which the 

Chamber endorses is important. We cannot have the Government 

withholding 3 percent of that money or that operating cash going 

from small businesses. It puts them in a very uncompetitive position. So I would encourage you to have a full repeal of the 3 percent withholding on Government contracts. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Would anybody else like to comment on this 

withholding provision? 

Mr. Ferreira. 

Mr. FERREIRA. Unfortunately I am going to have to excuse myself 

very shortly, so I just want to leave the Senators and you Chair 

Landrieu a couple of minor comments. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Is your mic on? Can you pull it a little closer 

to you? Just pull it. It will move. 

Mr. FERREIRA. Yes, Chairwoman. Can you hear me now? 

Chair LANDRIEU. Yes. 

Mr. FERREIRA. There we go. Good. A few final comments before 

I unfortunately have to excuse myself, which is that very much to 

echo Mr. Hernandez’s comments earlier about the black hole that 

exists for mid-size companies and the larger of the smalls in this 

country and the means by which to be able to invest in them. 

You go to B of A, they tell you to go to SBA and then SBA sends 

you right back. Diversity in contracting, another very important 

issue for us. The 107(a) provision and the Emergency Economic 

Stabilization Act, the bailout essentially gave first time a big waiver from any diversity in contracting for women-owned businesses 

and minority-owned businesses, and yet a single minority business 

is yet to get a single contract for administration of TARP activities. 

We would very much be hesitant to support any types of investments in economic recovery that take any similar approaches. And 

if anything, we would like to urge the opposite to make sure that 

we invest in minority communities and underserved communities 
20 

and women-owned businesses by having strong diversity language 

in the bill. 

And the last is, I want to also stress that neither the House or 

the Senate bills should contain any E-verify requirements which 

are very much unfortunately onerous and incredibly—Senator 

Grassley we understand has filed an amendment for the Senate bill 

which would require the use of E-verify for any public or private 

entity that receives monies from the economic stimulus or even 

that receives a tax benefit, uses a tax benefit. 

That is essentially a nationwide implementation of an experimental database program that does not work and will put 1 percent of all workers that go through it in the unemployment line. 

So we should not be actually using the economic stimulus bill as 

a means to put people out of work. 

And with that, thank you very much. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Okay, Mr. Hernandez and then Mr. Alford. If 

any of you want to speak, please just turn your card vertically. 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. It took me a minute to figure that out. You 

know, at the end of the day as a small business owner, the reality 

is, that which puts cash in the bank for us stimulates us. Tax cuts 

are great and we certainly appreciate those. They do not cause us 

to go out and hire more people however. 

I think at the end of the day, this is about putting people to work 

and supporting communities and helping communities to sustain 

quality of life. To do that, you need cash money to drive that process. 

Certainly depreciation mechanisms that are in place are helpful 

to us because they are good financing tools for us. So those things 

will work. 

New market tax credit program. I think the underlying principle 

of the program is a phenomenal principle. But in practicality, it is 

not as easy to navigate as we may have intended. As a business 

owner that uses new market tax credits, I can tell you that they 

can be very expensive to close in a financing package. They can be 

very complicated to close in a financing package. 

It takes more lawyers to close a new market tax credit deal than 

I think I have ever seen before. And then lastly, what we have 

found in the new market tax credit realm is that those who are getting the allocations are not necessarily using them as a real financing tool for small businesses. They are really using them kind of 

as loan dollars and they are following typical bank loan procedures 

in order to get those monies out into the community. 

A lot of small businesses struggle with trying to close new market tax credit deals. So I would ask the Committee to take a look 

at streamlining the new market tax credit closing process, the cost 

of using the tax credits, and then put in place a true accountability 

system to measure where those monies are going and whether they 

are actually having the impact that the program actually intended. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you. Going back to what Mr. Sharpe 

said, let me mention one part of the stimulus that this Committee 

can take some credit for. At our request, the package includes $51 

million for micro loans, a substantial increase if the package goes 

through as the Senate version, and we can fine tune it. 
21 

I would like you all to review that particular provision and make 

comments either verbally or in writing to this Committee, and we 

are proud to have advocated for that. 

I think I know the answer to this question, but I am going to ask 

it anyway because I think it is important to get some strong, clear 

comments on the record. The first round of TARP was $350 billion. 

There has been a lot of criticism. As you know, Senator Cardin 

started his remarks saying how unhappy his constituents are. I 

hear that, of course, from my constituents as well. 

So we know what is wrong and what did not work. What we 

would like to hear from you more specifically is what do you think 

might work in the next round as President Obama leads this next 

round? Do you have any specific recommendations to the Administration or to Congress about what provisions could be included in 

the finance provision that might help your small businesses and actually reach Main Street? 

We will start with you, Mr. Alford. 

Mr. ALFORD. Madam Chair, let’s reinstate the FAR, the Federal 

Acquisitions Regulations, which has small business, minority business provisions. When that was waived, I smelled a rat and I knew 

what was going to go down. We did not support the bailout, the 

TARP. 

We do support the stimulus plan totally and in writing, but I believe the U.S. Chamber, and the Hispanic Chamber would join with 

my Chamber, to ask your Committee to get a report from Treasury 

on small business utilization stipulating minority women-owned 

businesses as well. 

I believe it is going to be a zero, but if you can get that report, 

we would really love to have it. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Yes, Senator Cardin. 

Senator CARDIN. I agree with your point completely. Look, we 

need to pass an economic stabilization plan and I am hopeful that 

we will get it done within the next two weeks. I intend and hope 

I will be strongly supporting that. 

But I do have concern with the same point you raised on the 

TARP money, whether the procurement dollars that are being 

made available will be utilized in a way that is in the best interest 

of our company in a fair way. We have set aside programs for minority businesses and for small businesses and we have known of 

the abuses in these programs with bundling and with prime contractor abuses. 

This Committee has had hearings on it and it is well documented. The concerns that are always expressed is that when you 

have a stable pie on procurement it is difficult to break into the 

arrangements between the agencies and the prime contractors. 

Well now we have a larger pie, so this should be an opportunity 

to really reach out and to make sure that the Federal procurement’s done in a fair way, in a way that is going to help this nation 

grow. 

I think your point about making sure we have accounting as to 

how these funds are used and reports as to how well we are complying with these programs is very well placed. I do have concern 

as to whether the dollars will get fairly down on procurement to 
22 

small, minority businesses, women-owned businesses in a manner 

consistent with the intent of Federal law. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Go ahead, Mr. Alford. 

Mr. ALFORD. If I may say too, some of my accounting firms, 

members of the Chamber, came with a complaint that they could 

not get into their door. And we tracked Bank of New York Mellon, 

where did their accounting contracts go to? They outsourced them. 

They went to India. They went to India, sir, and the Secretary of 

Treasury gave them a waiver, a written waiver to do that. 

Senator CARDIN. We are going to be watching that very closely 

and there is language in this bill that has gotten some concern 

internationally to make sure—we are about creating jobs here in 

America. That is what this economic stabilization plan is about. So 

we are going to follow up on that to make sure that these contracts 

are left here in the United States. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Coratolo. 

Mr. CORATOLO. You had mentioned the TARP. A few weeks ago, 

I guess, the Treasury—— 

Chair LANDRIEU. Speak into the mic if you could, please. 

Mr. CORATOLO. I am sorry. You had mentioned the TARP. A few 

weeks ago the Treasury had initiated a new program called the 

TALF, which supposedly stands for the Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility, where they were going to set up a loan facility 

which would buy some of the SBA and student loans and actually 

credit card assets that were out there that were clogging up the 

secondary markets. 

I think this is important. I think it is important to follow through 

to make sure they do not take a U-turn on this. You asked before 

how much we are clogging up the secondary markets. I know there 

is $4 billion clogging up the 7(a) secondary markets that really 

need to be liquefied in order for banks to have any shot at creating 

a steady flow of access to capital. 

So I think whether it is that particular program or another secondary market program, we really have to be judicious in looking 

at how this works for creating a good flow for small business. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Good point. 

Ms. Sullivan. 

Ms. SULLIVAN. There are really two parts of TARP. One is, as 

Senator Cardin mentioned, the procurement part of it, which is 

using small businesses to process loans and all the—there are a lot 

of small businesses in that arena. 

So when it first was passed, we eagerly called Treasury and said 

women businesses are here to help and they said, we have made 

a decision really not to work with outside groups. You will need to 

go talk to the prime. So that was that. 

There is section 107 in the original law that said they should 

work with minority and women-owned and small businesses, so I 

guess we would advocate for Congress to ask a lot of Congress 

about how that is being implemented. 

The second part is just how—the question that the Chair asked 

about the TARP program itself and how to trickle that down to 

Main Street. There is a Congressional oversight panel that is 

churning out reports kind of like baking cakes and the second one 

said that there really needs to be metrics put in place to be able 
23 

to measure this, something that has not been done. We just want 

to echo that in order for that to come to Main Street, there have 

got to be some metrics put into place. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Sharpe. 

Mr. SHARPE. The second largest complaint that we receive on a 

daily basis, of course, is the procurement situation. You know, we 

talk about new programs, but we already have laws on the books 

that have not been enforced. One is 106–50, the 3 percent procurement goal. 

It appears from our constituents that there is an inherent bias 

of working with not only small companies, but with veteran-owned 

companies. It appears that they would rather prefer to work with 

the larger companies. There seems to be some sort of connection already there that is cutting the veteran businesses out. 

You mentioned about India. We have some veteran-owned company owners right now working in Afghanistan and, of course, Iraq 

who are tired of trying to find contracts with American companies 

because they see a lot of these contracts going to foreign companies. So they are learning to work with foreign companies to get 

some piece of the pie there because they can not seem to do it here. 

So with the stimulus package, we understand that there is a part 

of it that is going to be massive funding for a lot of VA medical 

centers and a lot of military bases. Veterans of course, want to 

make sure that they are part of that. 

Again, we already have laws on the books. We just need SBA to 

really monitor and enforce what is—which is already there. 

As far as the direct loan program, it is my understanding that 

SBA already has that ability, that there is some regulation that allows them to do that. All they have to do is actually follow through 

on it. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Well it reminds me, as Mr. Sharpe mentioned, 

about the difficulty of veterans who are on the front lines. We say 

we honor them and take a lot of pictures, but when it comes to 

budgets, and making sure they are at the front of the line for benefits, sometimes they are not there. 

It reminds me. Right after one of our hurricanes, George—we 

have had so many, I am not able to keep up with them. But, after 

one, we had a terrible disaster around the St. Bernard area, and 

the lower ninth ward in New Orleans and our military base were 

devastated. 

The small businesses in that community had an impossible—it 

was impossible for them to get the contracts to help rebuild that 

base. People from the outside came in while the businesses that 

were directly impacted—hardware stores, supply stores, paint 

stores, electricians in the neighborhood—could not access the contract jobs. 

So we have had first-hand experience with contracting dilemmas, 

and this Committee would like to focus on that. 

Mr. McCracken. 

Mr. MCCRACKEN. One of the recent, I guess, bright spots in 

TARP is when it was initially enacted, there was no so-called term 

sheet for S Corporations that happen to be banks to participate and 

that is something like a third, I think, of banks in the country, and 
24 

they tend to be the smaller community banks that do a great deal 

of small business lending. 

So they were not even eligible to participate in the TARP. That 

has just recently been changed, so going forward, they should be 

able to participate in the TARP. We are somewhat cautiously hopeful that will begin to help. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Thank you for mentioning that. This Committee has been really reaching out to our community banks nationally. We want to hear from them. We have been reaching out, 

not just to the Louisiana banks and Maryland banks, but to banks 

in all of the states through their national and regional organizations. We want them to be a big part of the solution because they 

have been a big basis of support for capital in the country. Please 

continue. 

Mr. MCCRACKEN. But then going forward, we also think there 

should be some target for banks that receive TARP monies for their 

small business lending. Obviously it will probably need to be a little bit different by bank because different banks have different specialties in the way they lend. There is a great diversity of banks. 

But we nevertheless think there should be a target for a bank 

that is receiving TARP monies and a clear mechanism for followup to subtract the loans that they have been making and were 

making following the TARP. So they know someone’s watching 

them. I think accountability and oversight at least should be part 

of that. 

Chair LANDRIEU. I have got one more general question as we 

begin to wrap up the roundtable, and then I am going to ask for 

final comments from you all if you feel like we have not covered 

an area. 

We have talked about the tax provisions. We have talked about 

the SBA programs. We have talked about contracting, micro-lending, the definitions of businesses that may need to be reviewed. 

My last question has to do with the actual stimulative part of the 

bill relative to construction and infrastructure, which is widely supported among Democrats and Republicans. There is, of course, 

some disagreement as to the level of that investment and the targets. 

I think most Americans understand that one good way to put 

people to work is for the government to invest in building highways, rail, transportation, and broadband. I think President 

Obama’s call to make these investments sturdy, bold and real, and 

also transformative, is also catching the imagination of Americans 

who would like to see us spending that money wisely, laying a 

foundation for a brighter future—whether it is in Mr. Hernandez’s 

energy efficiency, or new technologies for communication that will 

make America more competitive. 

So my final question to the panel is: How are your small businesses focused on this particular infrastructure portion? We talked 

a little bit about the set asides. We have talked some about the 

surety bonds. But on the construction side itself, how do we make 

sure that small businesses, minority-owned, small, women-owned 

businesses, and the general small business community, can help 

build these roads, build these levies, restore our parks, lay this 

fiber, and create the green jobs of the future? 
25 

Why don’t we start with you, Mr. Adams? 

Mr. ADAMS. I believe it goes back to something we talked about 

a little earlier and I think Senator Cardin talked on that a little 

bit. But first, I think we have to have a strong SBA. We talked 

about the size of SBA. To service all of these small businesses that 

look to participate in this infrastructure development, we have to 

have the manpower and the personnel at SBA to facilitate that. 

So a part of that is we have to strengthen SBA. I think for those 

to participate, we also have to go back to I think what Senator 

Cardin and others have talked about, actually increase the level of 

the surety bonding. We talk about numbers in general, but we need 

to go for maybe 2 to 10 million. 

We keep hearing we have to develop capacity, you have to develop capacity. Well to do that, one has to have the opportunity to 

perform on larger and larger jobs. Increasing the surety bond levels 

will afford that opportunity. 

Along that same line, the SBA loans need to be increased. I think currently the level is $2.5 million. That needs to go to $5 or $10 

million, as these businesses participate in some of the costs from 

a construction standpoint, to be able to do that as well. 

I still have to go back and talk a little about the mid-tier businesses along these lines as well. We still need to cultivate and do 

everything we can for the smaller businesses, increasing the loans, 

the surety, but we also have to make sure we understand that 

there is an economic crunch when we talk about access to capital 

for the mid-tiers. 

We were at a recent conference at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce where one of the staffers from the Hill even commented that 

those going into mid-tier businesses, they referred to it as going 

into the Valley of Death, and that is a quote from that day. So I 

think we need to understand that there has to be something to assist him to be able to participate even as we grow with the SBA. 

One recommendation I would like to suggest is possibly, we always go back and forth about the NAICS, the size standards, the 

whole bit, the codes. I think one thing that could help a lot of businesses also to participate in the construction and the infrastructure 

development is to freeze businesses and allow them to maintain 

their NAICS code size standards from 2008 for the next three years 

as we implement the economic recovery bill. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Ms. Eckerly and then Mr. Alford. 

Ms. ECKERLY. I think one of the frustrations we hear from our 

members, we heard it about TARP and then we are hearing it 

about this stimulus package, is where all this money is going. Particularly with I think what we hear on the construction and the infrastructure portion is to make sure—I hate to use the—it is a 

cliche ́ now—but that they do not go to bridges to nowhere, that the 

money is used in a constructive fashion. So to the extent that during consideration of the stimulus this is paid attention to, that 

would be a good thing. 

The other thing is when you think of a lot of small businesses, 

if they are going to get some of this money, frankly and particularly in your part of the country, are not unionized. It is unrealistic 

to ask, for example, that Davis-Bacon requirements get lifted. But 

this makes it tougher for small businesses to compete for these con-
26 

tracts if the red tape associated with them excludes a construction 

firm with less than 10 employees, for instance. 

So I think that is something else that our members would say 

needs to be paid attention to. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Let me get Ms. Littlejohn and then you, Mr. 

Alford, because she has not spoken as much as the others. 

Ms. LITTLEJOHN. I wanted to speak to your issues about jobs of 

the future being created. I think that instead of just normal highways, the concept of smart highways and some of the things that 

can utilize technology, the broadband piece, I think, is absolutely 

critical. 

I mentioned I have been living overseas most of the last five 

years. You go to South Korea and their broadband is—I mean, it 

makes everything we have in this country look like we are in the 

horse and buggy era. I think that is going to be a huge aspect of 

how businesses and jobs are created in the future. 

I think that absolutely has to be a very, very high priority. The 

broadband piece as well as rural access, I know there are budgetary issues, but that is critical. And then energy efficiency, I personally feel that with how we squander resources with poor heating 

and houses with everything going through the roofs in the cold climates, our use of air conditioning, we need to look at renewable energy. I think that is just critical. 

We need to look at retrofitting housing. I think many people in 

construction can move into some of those kinds of jobs. But we 

really have to look at it in a transformational way, I think. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Well, there is a provision in part of the bill for 

weatherization programs that could have an immediate opportunity 

for businesses in that sector to step up the kind of weatherization 

for homes and businesses. In the long-term, those homeowners and 

businesses will reap the rewards of lower electricity. 

I am not sure that we sized it properly. It probably needs some 

work, but that is a part of the stimulus as it came out of the appropriations Committee. 

Mr. Alford. 

Mr. ALFORD. Yes, Madam Chair. The President has commitments 

to unions, but in construction, if we have project labor agreements 

on some of these projects, it is going to decrease minority contracting 60 percent. It will decrease minority worker participation 

by 75 percent. 

Unions do not hire minorities and minority companies do not belong to unions. So it is rather unrealistic if we try to blanket this 

with a project labor agreement. We will have to go to court because 

it is wholesale discrimination. 

Also, if we get direction from the top, that makes a lot of difference. We were getting wiped out, blocked out from the Gulf rebuilding and at a White House meeting, I asked the President to 

tell Riley Bechtel, who was there, and the CEO of Shaw, who was 

there, to open their doors to our members. And he said they will 

do it and they nodded. And that was all it took. 

Now we are participating in New Orleans. It is a model program 

for the nation because it was a word spoken from the top. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Coratolo. 
27 

Mr. CORATOLO. Madam Chair, certainly the Chamber endorses 

infrastructure spending. It is going to be key to putting people back 

to work. 

A couple of related thoughts on that is, when small businesses 

participate, their being paid on a timely basis is always an issue. 

I do not know that we can do anything other than maybe change 

some of the laws or maybe even from the pulpit of where you sit, 

encourage that payment. Because access to capital, that is another 

form of access to capital, is getting paid properly. 

Right now after 12 months, the government does not pay interest 

on any outstanding debts. Maybe we could extend that. Maybe we 

can encourage the government to pay more quickly rather than the 

30 days. 

Another related issue, I know when we talk about infrastructure, 

we are talking about our energy infrastructure, our technologies, 

our energy security, so it goes beyond just roads and bridges. Part 

of the purview of this Committee here is SBIR and STTR. I think 

it is an imperative that we have a reauthorization and one, based 

on the compromise that you, in fact, you were part of last year. I 

think it is really needed to put forth a new foot forward to have 

small businesses participate in the R&D that will be the basis for 

our future. 

So even though that may not be stimulative, it is not a cost factor. It is something that we have to get in place so that we know 

that those R&D dollars are coming to small businesses such they 

can patent ideas that will be part of this new economy and this 

new energy economy. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Mr. Sharpe and Mr. Hernandez, you all will 

have the last word, and then I will do a closing statement. 

Mr. SHARPE. I would like to end with saying that everyone in 

this room, we are all concerned with the state of small businesses. 

We feel that the small business is what is going to keep the economy growing, but for the veteran living outside the Beltway, they 

do not believe at this point in time that the Federal Government 

or the Administration really believes the importance of small businesses. 

Some sort of strong signal has to be sent that we are serious 

about helping the small business community. One way you can do 

that is to—I really believe that you should have someone in the 

cabinet, you know, SBA should be on a cabinet-level position. 

Chair LANDRIEU. Well I know you all are going to think I planted 

that question, that comment, but I did not. My staff just reminded 

me to announce that just today Senator Snowe and I sent a letter 

to the President asking him to do exactly that, to send a positive 

signal to the country that the small business Administrator would 

be elevate the SBA Administrator to a cabinet level. 

I think given the challenges before the nation and the fact that 

small business will be in large measure the engine that drives us 

out of this ditch and forward, that it would be very positive and 

powerful, not just symbolically, but substantively, to have the agenda of small business, whether it is in the tax provisions or the 

stimulus provisions or the investment provisions or in the regulatory provisions or the financial, to have that voice right there at 

the table. 
28 

So we will see. I think the Administration is contemplating its 

action. Mr. Hernandez, you actually get the last word here. 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. I wish I could get that same privilege at home. 

[Laughter.] 

You know, I just want to jump on the bandwagon. I actually had 

written down in my notes to emphasize that. I thought that there 

needed to be a cabinet-level position so that someone could focus 

on making sure that small businesses are participating in the flow 

of the stimulus monies. 

One of the issues that we have in New Orleans outside of the 

TARP package is that there are lots of Federal dollars that are focused on New Orleans infrastructure redevelopment. A lot has 

been said about those dollars flowing and a lot has been done about 

getting small businesses included, but the dollars have not flowed 

yet. 

One of the things that this Committee can truly help us do is 

make sure those monies begin the flow so that ultimately the small 

businesses can begin to participate. If someone at a cabinet-level 

position can have the responsibility of forcing those people who are 

handling the dollars to account for where those dollars go specifically, show us at the end of the day how small businesses have 

benefitted in any way, then we can start to appreciate where the 

small business are actually getting a piece of the pie. 

So we think accountability and having someone monitor that is 

going to be kind of the most important component of making sure 

small businesses get to play. 

Chair LANDRIEU. I am pleased to say in conclusion that I was 

able to put a provision in the appropriations mark just the other 

day to hopefully expedite about $1.5 billion of projects that are stymied. There is nothing right now in the law provision to settle disputes between local communities and FEMA—cities like Lake 

Charles, for instance, or Calcasieu, or Cameron Parish where Mr. 

Swift is from, or the New Orleans area, or St. Bernard. 

It is just an ongoing disagreement as to how much the fire station costs to rebuild. The fire chief says it costs $100. FEMA says 

it costs $50, and that continues for four and half years after the 

storm. So the provision that I put in the appropriations mark says 

that within 90 days, there has got to be almost like binding arbitration, or some final decision, that says this fire station costs $75, 

that is it, let’s build it. 

Because we need to start building in some of these devastated 

areas. I know this is not true of the whole country, but we have 

devastation in California right now, and we in Iowa from the 

floods, not just the Gulf Coast, though there is the storm that hit 

the Texas border. 

I want to end by saying to Senator Cardin, I will most certainly 

take your concerns about the surety bond piece. We will raise that 

issue to the Senate leadership. I thank all of you for your participation. I think we had some excellent ideas and suggestions and comments. 

Again, this Committee, under my chairmanship and with the 

good work of my colleague Senator Snowe, will continue to be a 

strong voice for the needs and the potential of small business in 

this country. 
29 

God bless you all. Thank you so much for participating. 

[Applause.] 

[Whereupon, at 10:41 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

(31) 

APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED 
32 
33 
34 
35 
36 
37 
38 
39 
40 
41 
42 
43 
44 
45 
46 
47 
48 
49 
50 
51 
52 
53 
54 
55 
56 
57 

Æ