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97–995 2016

A REVIEW OF THE TRANSITION ASSISTANCE 

PROGRAM (TAP) 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC 

OPPORTUNITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

TUESDAY, JANUARY 27, 2015 

Serial No. 114–4 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 


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COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

JEFF MILLER, Florida, Chairman 

DOUG LAMBORN, Colorado 

GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida, Vice-Chairman 

DAVID P. ROE, Tennessee 

DAN BENISHEK, Michigan 

TIM HUELSKAMP, Kansas 

MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado 

BRAD R. WENSTRUP, Ohio 

JACKIE WALORSKI, Indiana 

RALPH ABRAHAM, Louisiana 

LEE ZELDIN, New York 

RYAN COSTELLO, Pennsylvania 

AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, American 

Samoa 

MIKE BOST, Illinois 

CORRINE BROWN, Florida, Ranking 

Minority Member 

MARK TAKANO, California 

JULIA BROWNLEY, California 

DINA TITUS, Nevada 

RAUL RUIZ, California 

ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire 

BETO O’ROURKE, Texas 

KATHLEEN RICE, New York 

TIMOTHY J. WALZ, Minnesota 

JERRY MCNERNEY, California 

JON TOWERS, Staff Director 

DON PHILLIPS, Democratic Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY 

BRAD WENSTRUP, Ohio, Chairman 

LEE ZELDIN, New York 

AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, American 

Samoa 

RYAN COSTELLO, Pennsylvania 

MIKE BOST, Illinois 

MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking 

Member 

DINA TITUS, Nevada 

KATHLEEN RICE, New York 

JERRY MCNERNEY, California 

Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of rule XI of the Rules of the House, public hearing records 

of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs are also published in electronic form. The printed 

hearing record remains the official version. Because electronic submissions are used to 

prepare both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process of converting 

between various electronic formats may introduce unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the current publication process and should diminish as the process 

is further refined. 


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C O N T E N T S 

Tuesday, January 27, 2015 

Page 

A Review of the Transition Assistance Program (TAP) ........................................ 1 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Brad Wenstrup, Chairman ...................................................................................... 1 

Mark Takano, Ranking Member ............................................................................ 2 

WITNESSES 

Mr. Davy Leghorn, Assistant Director, The Veteran Education and Employment Commission, The American Legion .......................................................... 4 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 34 

Mr. Ryan M. Gallucci, Deputy Director, NVS, Veterans of Foreign Wars 

of the United States ............................................................................................. 5 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 39 

Ms. Valrica Marshall Dunmyer, Chief of Staff and Chief Financial Officer, 

Student Veterans of America .............................................................................. 7 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 47 

Colonel David W. Sutherland, U.S. Army (Ret.) Chairman and Co-Founder, 

Easter Seals Dixon Center .................................................................................. 9 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 51 

Mr. Curtis L. Coy, Deputy Under Secretary for Economic Opportunity, VBA, 

U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs ................................................................. 23 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 62 

Ms. Teresa W. Gerton, Deputy Assistant Secretary, Veterans’ Employment 

and Training Service, U.S. Department of Labor .............................................. 25 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 68 

Dr. Susan Kelly,, Director, Transition to Veterans Program Office, Office 

of the Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness, Department of Defense .................................................................................................... 26 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 76 


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A REVIEW OF THE TRANSITION ASSISTANCE 

PROGRAM (TAP) 

Tuesday, January 27, 2015 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY, 

Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:00 p.m., in Room 

334, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Brad Wenstrup [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Wenstrup, Costello, Radewagen, 

Takano, Titus, and Rice. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN BRAD WENSTRUP 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Well good afternoon, everyone. I want to welcome 

you all to the first hearing of the Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity for the 114th Congress. I have to tell you I am very honored to serve as chairman of this subcommittee and I look forward 

to working with Ranking Member Takano and other members to 

improve economic opportunities for our nation’s veterans. Before 

we begin I will tell you that Mr. Coffman may join us and I ask 

unanimous consent that our colleague Mr. Coffman be allowed to 

join us at the dais and ask questions. Hearing no objection, so ordered. 

We are here today to discuss implementation of the Transition 

Assistance Program, or TAP. TAP is a critically important step for 

today’s servicemembers because if we can get TAP right for them 

at the onset of their transition from active duty I believe we can 

mitigate many other issues that have plagued and continue to 

plague previous generations of America’s veterans. 

The information on financial management, job search skills, and 

veteran benefits are light years away from what was being provided to servicemembers under previous versions of TAP, which 

was called by many death by PowerPoint. And while the structure 

of TAP has been greatly improved we can and should do more and 

I want to briefly make a few points. 

It has been suggested by some that there is no need to continue 

to provide TAP in a classroom setting and that the online version 

is sufficient. While I agree that the online version can be helpful 

it was designed to only be a supplement to the classroom version 

and not to replace it. I understand that in a constrained fiscal environment the services have had the difficult task of implementing 

the VOW Act provision which made TAP mandatory. But I believe 


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that focusing only on the online version would shortchange our 

servicemembers of critically important information. 

I also want to echo the comments from the past two chairmen 

of this subcommittee by saying that I believe DoD is missing the 

mark by not making the education track mandatory for those 

servicemembers who are planning to use their G.I. Bill benefits 

upon transition. Under the right circumstances the Post 9/11 G.I. 

Bill can provide over $300,000 worth of benefits to a veteran and 

with thousands of schools and training programs clamoring for veteran students we must do everything we can to make sure our 

servicemembers are provided with all the information and tools 

they need to make an informed choice on the right school and how 

to use their educational benefits. Now from everything I have 

heard the education track does a great job in preparing 

servicemembers as they make this life changing choice and I believe it should be mandatory for servicemembers who are choosing 

to use their G.I. Bill benefits. 

Another issue that I hope to hear more about today is how VA, 

DoD, and DoL are measuring and tracking performance and long 

term outcomes of TAP. Without measurable outcomes it is impossible to know for certain if this new curriculum is working. I know 

that hard statistics for a program like this can be difficult but I 

look forward to learning more about the steps the agencies have 

taken to track performance. Before I recognize the ranking member 

I do want to commend DoD, VA, and the Department of Labor for 

working together to transform TAP over the past two years. While 

many strides have been made a recent report from the VA’s Office 

of Economic Opportunity highlighted a new challenge. The report 

stated that while unemployment rates for veterans continue to remain low, over half of the Post 9/11 veterans will face a period of 

unemployment upon transition. Helping facilitate a smooth transition so that veterans avoid this period of unemployment is our 

challenge and I look forward to exploring ways to address this challenge head on in today’s hearing. 

I now recognize Ranking Member Takano for his opening comments. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER MARK TAKANO 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome to the Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity, especially to our new members Ms. Radewagen and Ms. Rice. We welcome you. I know we 

will accomplish a lot under your stewardship, Mr. Chairman, of the 

committee during this session. Also thank you for your continued 

service to the United States Army and we are excited to have that 

level of experience and understanding that you bring from your experience in tackling the economic issues facing our veterans. 

Transitioning from the military is a defining moment in all of our 

servicemembers’ lives. Upon exiting the military at a minimum 

servicemembers should understand the resources available through 

their branch of service, the benefits awaiting them as veterans, and 

perhaps most importantly how to find a job. From a retiring commander to a one-term enlisted soldier leaving the military means 

different things to different individuals. There is no one answer as 

to how we can prepare these individuals for what comes next. Yet 


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we have a responsibility to give them the best information available to help them focus on their next move as civilians. The Transition Assistance Program, or TAP, has gone through several 

iterations over the last several years and we expect it to continue 

to evolve as better practices are realized and implemented. The latest concept of TAP is Transition GPS, which is designed to deliver 

a wide array of information over a five-day period. One of the most 

important aspects of the program is a briefing on financial responsibility and access to financial counseling while still on active duty. 

Too many of our younger servicemembers are leaving the military 

without thinking about their financial futures and having access to 

a trained professional who can help guide them toward financial 

responsibility is extremely important. I look forward to hearing Dr. 

Kelly speak to the financial responsibility briefing and other aspects of the DoD portion of this training. 

I am also looking forward to hearing from Mr. Coy about the VA 

portion of the training and how veterans are learning about how 

to access their veterans benefits. The Post 9/11 G.I. Bill is an incredible education benefit and I am very interested in hearing more 

about how servicemembers are learning about the optional education track briefing. Last Congress I was an original cosponsor to 

the legislation introduced by Congressman Flores that would have 

made the education track mandatory. In many instances student 

veterans are unaware of the differences between education institutions, the quality of education at those institutions, and the likelihood of finding a job upon graduation. The education track remains 

optional for the time being and I hope to hear from our agency witnesses that servicemembers are being encouraged to take this optional course if they are planning to use their education benefits. 

Finally some portions of the Transition GPS training are now 

interactive and online. I am very interested in learning more about 

how servicemembers are utilizing these resources. I would also like 

to welcome our guests from the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the 

American Legion, Student Veterans of America, and Easter Seals 

Dixon Center. I look forward to hearing what some of the veterans 

you speak with are saying about TAP and any recommendations 

you may have. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. I want to thank the Ranking Member for his 

comments and also I would like to reiterate what you said about 

welcoming our new members. I think that you should know that 

this is a committee, a subcommittee, that has great opportunity to 

really do a lot of benefit for our members of our country that serve 

in uniform, and for their families and their lives as they move forward and they leave the military. But now I would like to welcome 

our first panel to the witness table. First we have Mr. Davy Leghorn, Assistant Director of the Veteran Education and Employment 

Commission for the American Legion; Mr. Ryan Gallucci, Deputy 

Director of the National Veterans Service for the Veterans of Foreign Wars; Ms. Valrica Dunmyer, Chief of Staff and Chief Financial Officer for Student Veterans of America; and finally Colonel 

David Sutherland, Chairman and Co-Founder of the Easter Seals 

Dixon Center. I want thank you all for being here, for your service 

to our nation, and for those in uniform, and for your continued 


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hard work and advocacy for veterans. Mr. Leghorn, we will begin 

with you. You are now recognized for five minutes. 

STATEMENT OF MR. DAVY LEGHORN 

Mr. LEGHORN. Chairman Wenstrup, Ranking Member Takano, 

and distinguished members of the subcommittee, on behalf of National Commander Michael Helm and the 2.4 million members of 

the American Legion, we thank you for this opportunity to testify 

at this hearing on improving the Transition Assistance Program 

and veterans’ transition in general. 

Over the past two years the American Legion has intensely scrutinized the new TAP, observing it in operation across the country. 

The testimony we present today reflects this scrutiny and provides 

observations as well as recommendations for improvement. In general we were highly impressed both by the amount and the quality 

of information that was conveyed, particularly in such a relatively 

short period of time. 

The American Legion has long advocated for the inclusion of 

VSOs in TAP. VSOs provide important services to transitioning 

servicemembers and we are pleased to note that during the TAP 

sessions we observed the attendees were referred to VSOs for claim 

services by the TAP instructors. We would, however, like to offer 

some recommendations. The first regards a need to increase emphasis on soft skills, that is behaviors and etiquette that makes an 

individual employable. The vast majority of personnel leaving the 

armed services have not had significant experience working in a civilian work setting. We believe that insufficient emphasis is placed 

on these soft skills during TAP. Further, a five-day course cannot 

hope to teach behaviors obtained by spending a substantial part of 

one’s adult life in a civilian work place. However, we believe that 

transitioning servicemembers would benefit if there were more discussions of workplace culture. 

The second regards an improvement to the information on education that is provided in TAP. With the Post 9/11 G.I. Bill every 

transitioning servicemember has access to the opportunity to attend a higher education program, or in some instances transfer the 

benefit to their dependents. As such we recommend that the educational track incorporate more input from the Department of Education and that the education track of Transition GPS be made 

mandatory for all transitioning servicemembers. 

We believe that part of the solution to veterans unemployment 

lies in a collaboration between government entities and the private 

sector. As such the American Legion as responded by bringing Employment Workshops and hiring events to transitioning 

servicemembers. Our Employment and Empowerment Summit is a 

two-day event that ends with a job fair. We host this summit in 

various cities and provide transportation and lodging to 

servicemembers going through TAP. Servicemembers attending our 

events have had the chance to learn about various opportunities in 

fields ranging from the banking industry to the trades and are able 

to receive some preliminary instruction on the aforementioned soft 

skills needed to gain and maintain employment. Unfortunately at 

some locations we are met with resistance from contracted TAP 

facilitators. Contractually TAP facilitators are evaluated based on 


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a limited scope of performance measures, thus there is a lack of incentive for them to work outside the confines of their own programs. Amending DoD contracts for TAP facilitators to include a 

section regarding required collaboration with trusted private sector 

actors would solve this problem fairly easily. 

We recognize that one of TAP’s main roles is to introduce the employment services available to veterans and to provide a warm 

handoff to the agencies that administer those programs. However, 

we have become aware of an issue affecting veterans employment 

services that are funded by the JVSG and administered through 

DoL VETS. Last spring DoL issued a directive creating a hard distinction between disabled veteran outreach program representatives and the local veterans employment representatives which are 

funded by the JVSG grants and are located at DoL job centers 

across the country. Essentially this disallows DVOPs from seeing 

non-service disabled veterans even if they have time. DoL’s self-imposed restrictions undermine the flexibility required to best serve 

veterans who are in need of employment services. These restrictions are contrary to the federal statute and have generated negative feedback from the field. The American Legion is adamant that 

a regulatory or legislative change reinstituting the roles of DVOP 

and LVERs by DoL would provide a significant improvement to the 

JVSG program. The American Legion is working with the office of 

Senator Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania to introduce a bill that would 

make this change explicit in the statute should DoL fail to make 

the regulatory change. 

Overall the American Legion believes that the new TAP program 

represents an important step towards providing transitioning 

servicemembers with the information that they need to become successful. While there exists some shortcomings that require attention the program overall appears to be successful and implementation has been commendable. The American Legion looks forward to 

continuing our work with the agencies and with Congress to continue to improve this valuable resource for our transitioning 

servicemembers. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF DAVY LEGHORN APPEARS IN THE

APPENDIX] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Leghorn. 

Mr. Gallucci, you are now recognized for five minutes. 

STATEMENT OF MR. RYAN M. GALLUCCI 

Mr. GALLUCCI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Wenstrup, 

Ranking Member Takano, and members of the subcommittee, 

thank you for the opportunity to present the VFW’s thoughts on 

the Military Transition Assistance Program, or TAP. 

The VFW has long recognized the need to provide transitioning 

servicemembers with a quality baseline of information with which 

to make informed decisions about their post-military lives. Over the 

past few years this subcommittee has driven significant change in 

TAP. The agencies responsible have rebuilt the program from the 

ground up and worked to foster consistency by introducing contract 

facilitators, individual curriculum tracks, and access to post-service 

TAP. My remarks will focus on these three areas. 


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First, the VFW generally agrees with the shift to contract 

facilitators, freeing up local resources to serve veterans. However, 

the shift has had some unintended consequences and the VFW encourages striking a proper balance on contract facilitation and local 

need. The VFW also recognizes that the military has made a significant investment in TAP in anticipation of the current military 

draw down. More transitioning servicemembers require more staff 

and more classroom space. As DoD seeks to meet this demand we 

must not forget that VSOs still play a critical role in transition. To 

assist in the process the VFW has professional staff on more than 

a dozen military installations with plans to expand. 

Our staff provides free assistance to servicemembers seeking to 

file for VA disability benefits prior to separation. To do so we rely 

on our military hosts and TAP for access and support. Outgoing 

Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel recognized this in his recent 

memo to installation commanders, which outlines how they should 

provide for VSOs that deliver VA accredited, face-to-face services to 

transitioning servicemembers. Adherence to this memo is critical to 

the VFW as we see a correlation between exposure and access and 

the number of servicemembers seeking representation. We see 

fewer claims on installations where our access is limited, despite 

the increase in those leaving the military. 

Next, the VFW applauds the hard work of the contract VA briefing facilitators, many of whom are recently transitioned veterans. 

However, we question why the contract leaves such little flexibility 

to adapt to local needs. We encourage VA and the subcommittee to 

review the contract and offer flexibility to reintegrate local resources like VSOs and reasonably adapt the curriculum to suit the 

audience. 

Next, we must ensure consistent access to the new TAP tracks, 

as well as consistent delivery of timely and relevant training. During VFW’s recent visits to our staff on military bases we spoke with 

those responsible for implementing TAP. They acknowledge that 

the training is a marked improvement and were grateful for the 

significant recent investment in the program, however they worried 

that unit commanders still struggle to see the value in allowing 

their personnel to participate. Sadly, this was not an isolated issue. 

Though TAP is now a commander’s program the VFW worries that 

DoD lacks mechanisms to hold commanders accountable. This requires a significant cultural shift, one that is unlikely to happen 

during the current draw down. So in an effort to mitigate this concern the VFW encouraged DoD to make the curriculum accessible 

online. DoD complied, allowing servicemembers to complete the 

training through their secure JKO accounts. However, 

transitioning servicemembers still have no reasonable way to anticipate the specific challenges they will face after leaving the military. The simplest solution would be for DoD to finalize its information sharing agreement with the Department of Labor, offering 

workforce agencies access to the names of veterans returning to 

their communities. But the agreement is once again delayed. This 

is unacceptable and we encourage Congress to act on it. 

Finally, we must continue to invest in the post-service availability of TAP. Over the past two years DoL worked with its contractors in West Virginia, Georgia, and Washington to facilitate 23 


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workshops as part of the Off Base Transition Training, or OBTT 

pilot program. Some workshops were more successful than others, 

with West Virginia experiencing the most success thanks to support from the National Guard. OBTT was very cost effective, costing only $52,000 for the entire pilot. Through large scale community based TAP classes, OBTT serves veterans who otherwise 

would not have had access to the material or who could only rely 

on the, or could only receive the information by meeting one on one 

with an employment counselor. The VFW believes it is more cost 

effective to leverage the current TAP contract to facilitate large 

training sessions like OBTT before veterans meet one on one with 

counselors at American job centers. This way when veterans seek 

out services they are prepared to have a constructive meeting to 

find a job. OBTT expired this month and DoL will not have information on outcomes for another year. As we wait for final data on 

OBTT the VFW believes that Congress should at least extend the 

pilot, offering cost effective services to more veterans who need it. 

Veterans can also access all the new TAP modules via a public 

facing website offered in joint venture by DoD and Department of 

Labor. The VFW believes this is a game changer for veterans. However, to improve the site the VFW recommends allowing veterans 

to navigate directly to modules they need and offering links to the 

participant guides. DoL should also track traffic to the site to identify trends and shortcomings in the Transition Assistance Program. 

These minor improvements would allow veterans to use the public 

facing site as an easy reference guide. 

TAP is undergoing an amazing revolution and the VFW thanks 

everyone involved for their continued hard work on this project. 

However, we know that there are places that we can improve. With 

the current military draw down it is critical to ensure the future 

success of our war fighters and we look forward to working with 

this subcommittee on ways to make sure that we succeed in that 

mission. Chairman Wenstrup, Ranking Member Takano, and members of the committee, this concludes my testimony. I am happy to 

answer any questions you may have. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF RYAN GALLUCCI APPEARS IN THE

APPENDIX] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Mr. Gallucci. Ms. Dunmyer, you are 

now recognized for five minutes. 

STATEMENT OF VALRICA MARSHALL DUNMYER 

Ms. DUNMYER. Thank you, Chairman. Chairman Wenstrup, 

Ranking Member Takano, and other distinguished members of the 

subcommittee, thank you for calling this hearing and for continuing 

to monitor efforts to successfully transition our returning veterans 

out of the military and into civilian life. My name is Valrica 

Dunmyer and I am the Chief of Staff and Chief Financial Officer 

at Student Veterans of America. I am also here as a veteran with 

26 years of Army service. We are honored that you have invited us 

to be a part of this session today. 

On behalf of SVA and its more than 400,000 student veterans 

within a network of more than 1,200 chapter affiliates I am pleased 

to submit our testimony on the review of a Transition Assistance 

Program. SVA advocates for the rights of veterans in higher eduVerDate Aug 31 2005 13:56 Mar 10, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00011 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\97-995.TXT PAT

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cation, rooted in the belief that investing in America’s veterans 

today is a smart investment for the country tomorrow. SVA’s top 

priorities include improving access to higher education and scaling 

effective services that empower student veterans to graduate on 

time with little to no student debt and successfully transition into 

civilian life. 

Mr. Chairman, as a beneficiary of the current program I know 

that improvements have been made. Nevertheless, transitional 

challenges still exist as evidenced through the continuing struggle 

of our veterans, and more specifically our student veterans. One of 

the main challenges is knowing whether the TAP GPS program is 

truly working on the front end to produce the desired outcome on 

the back end. As of December 2, 2013 only 72 percent of TAP locations included the higher education track offered by the DoD. Now 

this may seem like a high number to you and something to be 

proud of. But consider for a moment, if you are that vet that’s in 

the 28 percent group, and your release date is quickly approaching, 

imagine that that is you and you are thinking about getting out 

and you want to pursue a degree. You have not been provided any 

of the information and you have no idea where to start. For those 

veterans the system is still not working. 

Our Million Records Project represents the most comprehensive 

examination of student veterans’ post-secondary academic success 

that has ever been done in decades. The Million Records Project 

showed that more than a million veterans have used educational 

benefits from 2002 to 2010. Additional data indicates that there 

will be over five million veterans by 2020. These facts, coupled with 

ongoing budgetary constraints, prove that we can no longer hope 

that our brick and mortar delivery of information is sufficient. We 

must be innovative in our approach to information delivery while 

still ensuring the quality of information provided to our veterans. 

Most veterans frown on the current delivery method, describing the 

TAP program as death by Power Point due to the lengthy and enormous amount of information delivered. While the basic information 

such as months of Post 9/11 G.I. Bill eligibility should continue to 

be included, we must ensure that our entire instructional program 

is informed through research, best practices, and feedback. 

As servicemembers contemplate pursuing a degree following the 

military the utilization of VSOs and VSAs can be looked upon as 

being a force multiplier, providing the necessary link between departure from the military and the veteran’s introduction into civilian life. Veterans service organizations like SVA have a proven 

track record of success, to both its members, both today and its 

alumni, and it should have a seat at the table in further discussions. Through research, connection with our local SVA chapters, 

and advocacy, we know that the better informed and prepared student veterans are the greater the contributions and return on the 

investment for our nation. By integrating SVA and other VSOs into 

the assessing higher education track, we can ensure the same level 

of success for all vets transitioning into higher education. 

We thank the chairman, ranking member, and the subcommittee 

members for your time, attention, and devotion to veterans and 

higher learning. We look forward to continuing to work with this 

subcommittee, the House Committee on Veterans’ Affairs, and the 


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Congress to ensure the success of all generations of veterans. 

Thank you. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF VALRICA MARSHALL DUNMYER AP- PEARS IN THE APPENDIX] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Ms. Dunmyer. Colonel Sutherland, 

you are now recognized for five minutes. 

STATEMENT OF COLONEL DAVID W. SUTHERLAND 

Colonel SUTHERLAND. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, my name is David Sutherland. I am representing 

Easter Seals Dixon Center and serve as its chairman. Easter Seals 

is a national nonprofit that helps individuals reach their potential 

through local services. I co-founded Easter Seals Dixon Center to 

forge community partnerships and harness local resources to more 

effectively serve veterans and transitioning servicemembers at the 

community level. As one of the 13 surge brigade commanders in 

Iraq in 2007 I observed firsthand the greatness that exists in our 

formations. And I also recognize the potential for greatness when 

our servicemembers come home. Thank you for inviting me to testify about the reintegration needs of our servicemembers and the 

role of communities and public-private partnerships. 

I have dedicated the last several years on this very topic, both 

as a special assistant to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff 

and now at Easter Seals Dixon Center. I am inspired by the sea 

of goodwill among Americans and U.S. communities that are ready 

to assist and welcome home our veterans and military families. I 

have seen that there are just some things that government cannot 

do that independent organizations working together locally can. 

Far too many servicemembers struggle during their transition because of missed opportunities and disconnected communities. The 

solution to successful transitions lies in American communities. My 

testimony today will focus on what government and communities 

can do together to improve this transition. 

Let me start by saying the government is doing a better job. 

Thanks to steps by Congress and changes to the Transition Assistance Program curriculum, including the optional tracks on education, technical training, and entrepreneurship. I did not benefit 

from these changes when I attended TAP after 29 years in the U.S. 

Army. That said, TAP continues to lack a mechanism to measure 

outcomes and facilitate warm hand offs into communities. 

In my testimony I share the transition experience of a Marine 

named Gary. He completed the new TAP, was self-motivated, and 

had a plan. However, his plan quickly unraveled when he hit a 

string of unfortunate events that left him homeless and in crisis. 

TAP and the military supports end the minute you walk off the 

base and so Gary was on his own. Gary and other veterans like 

him quickly learn that the hard work of transition begins after 

TAP and what typically separates the transition success story from 

a story of struggle is now a community welcomes, connects with, 

and responds to transitioning servicemembers. 

Luckily for Gary his home of Cincinnati was prepared to assist 

him. Several months earlier I had helped organize a coordinated 

community response in Cincinnati among Easter Seals and other 

community groups through Operation Veterans Thrive. Chairman 


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Wenstrup is very familiar with this effort funded by three local 

community foundations. Gary’s initial call into the community led 

to several warm handoffs. First, to local organizations to address 

his immediate needs. Then to Easter Seals Tri-State for employment services to help him find a job. Gary is firmly on his path towards greatness thanks to a little community support during transition. 

The connectedness of Cincinnati was the result of comprehensive 

community asset mapping and community convenings. Not all communities are as prepared. Easter Seals Dixon Center works across 

the country to build community partnerships and share innovative 

approaches to assist our veterans. We are stronger and more effective by working together. 

While we have succeeded in shepherding community resources 

and fostering community collaborations in places like Ohio, New 

York, California, and Indiana, the need and work continues. Congress could make a difference by funding community asset mapping 

and coordination efforts through a community grant. 

While this hearing focuses on initial transition into civilian life, 

reintegration struggles for some can surface several months or 

years after leaving the military. Congress has supported care coordination and supportive services models to address the most compelling needs, such as veterans unemployment and homelessness. 

However, more must be done to intervene earlier before crisis hits. 

I urge Congress to expand community models focused on early 

intervention and support services. Communities and groups like 

Easter Seals are part of the solution in promoting successful transitions. Congress could accelerate this effort by establishing outcome 

measurements and increasing community connections within TAP, 

supporting communities to more effectively serve veterans and 

military families, and expanding access to care coordination and 

support services to address ongoing reintegration needs. 

As I alluded to throughout my testimony, we are veterans, we 

are not victims. That this is not about pity but recognizing potential, and that this generation of veterans are wired to serve. They 

just need a little community based support during transition and 

reintegration and they will thrive. 

Thank you for the opportunity to testify. I will be pleased to answer any questions. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF COLONEL DAVID SUTHERLAND APPEARS IN THE APPENDIX] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Well, thank you, Colonel Sutherland. I now yield 

myself five minutes for questions and first I want to say I appreciate all of your testimonies and your lifelong concern for our veteran and for those that have served. And certainly we don’t want 

this program to be death by Power Point, which we have heard 

about, and we don’t want it to be just a box that you check. We 

are all familiar with that process and coming away with nothing. 

But we also need to look for opportunities outside of those several 

days where we can reach our veterans and those that are still in 

uniform as they are transitioning out of the military. Our goal here 

is to get it right and to get it right as many times as we possibly 

can. 


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You know, with that in mind as you are looking at the long term 

effects, I ask all of you what is your understanding of how the VA, 

Department of Labor, and Department of Defense are tracking 

long-term performance outcomes of TAP? And how do you think 

they could improve such reporting? What are you hearing from 

members on how TAP has or has not adequately prepared them for 

their transition? And I will start with you, Mr. Leghorn. 

Mr. LEGHORN. Mr. Chairman, we had very good feedback from 

our members that have gone through the TAP program. There is 

obviously some small tweaking that needs to happen, but for the 

most part it has been, all the feedback has been positive. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. What about the long term, my concern is about 

the long term reporting of how people are doing through, after this 

process. We know that they may go through the program and find 

it beneficial. What about looking at where they are two years from 

now? Five years from now? That is one of the issues that I want 

to address with all of you. 

Mr. LEGHORN. We talked to the Department of Labor about this 

in the past. And I believe we were told that they had a, a while 

back they had a direct calling campaign where they were reaching, 

actually reaching out to the people that have gone through TAP. 

And they captured their information and they were following up 

with them afterwards. So I do not know if that is still happening, 

but the American Legion was in support of that program. 

Mr. GALLAGHER. Thank you for the chairman, thank you for the 

question, Mr. Chairman. A couple of items on this. Now first, DoD 

is conducting exit surveys for participants in the Transition Assistance Program. Overall the feedback has been generally positive 

from what the VFW has seen. Now to do our own due diligence we 

also had a survey of recently transitioned servicemembers asking 

for their feedback on the Transition Assistance Program. A little 

bit of what we found from our respondents is that 65 percent reported that overall they were very satisfied with the level of training that they received. Only five percent reported that they were 

dissatisfied. Although the response, the sampling was very small, 

we hit major installations like, major combat installations like Fort 

Campbell, Fort Bragg, Hood, Camp Pendleton, and so on. 

Now as far as the Department of Labor briefing, 72 percent 

found it very useful, 26 somewhat useful. And 68 percent reported 

very likely to use the resources after they separated. Now the problem with this is that it does not capture what happens in the out 

years. This is what we were talking about in our testimony about 

the DoD, the importance of the Department of Defense and Department of Labor information sharing agreement. Department of 

Labor does want to track veterans once they separate from the 

military and what their employment interactions are like but they 

do not have consistent access to the information from when 

servicemembers leave the military and become veterans. 

Also with the Off Base Transition Training Program, I think that 

is why we think this is an important investment. OBTT has the potential to reach veteran who never had an opportunity to go 

through TAP, which is the majority of the veteran population. I 

know when I left the military it still was not mandatory. The mandate is only hitting people who are going through it now. And also, 


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that is not necessarily even the right time to ask those questions 

because you do not know the challenges you will face until after 

you leave. 

There are some issues with the current population survey and 

how the Bureau of Labor Statistics identifies veterans within the 

workforce. There are some tweaks we could make there to make it 

more beneficial. But there, we have a long way to go before properly evaluating the effectiveness of TAP and the long term employment of veterans. 

Ms. DUNMYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not aware of a 

formal program of tracking departing servicemembers to assess the 

effectiveness of TAP. But what I can share with you is what we are 

getting back from our student veterans. For the most part they are, 

they have benefitted from the TAP training but there are some instances where they are not prepared to enter college. They did not 

receive the information on how to engage the process and then 

what financial assistance is out there. So as we have identified 

through this hearing, we have also identified that there are still 

areas where we still need to show improvements. 

Colonel SUTHERLAND. So we did from our discussions, and I have 

visited over 600 communities in the past several years, worked and 

spoken to veterans from all generations, but with this particular 

audience that have gone through the current transition it is, the 

struggle is the warm hand-off, the connection with where they are 

going. The personal information disclosure and connecting them before they get home, to network, to assist, and knowing where to go 

if they have an emergency during that time period. That is what 

is missing. 

We have to measure the success or failure of our graduates. And 

if we look at our veterans as graduates and measure their success 

or failure, whether it is in full-time education, full-time employment, or other challenges, then we can assess and measure how we 

adjust TAP for the future. What are we hitting on? What are we 

not hitting on? If we continue to just measure 100 percent attendance, that is not going to help us achieve our goals. And my recommendation is that we say the goal is 100 percent of these veterans are employed, or 100 percent are in education, or bring it 

down to a more realistic number based on the staff estimate of 

Labor, VA, and DoD. But then we can measure it and we can come 

back and not say that this group got a better education experience 

or a better transition experience, but handing them off warmly. 

The lessons learned in the recent Rand study for the 100,000 jobs 

mission that came out discusses the significance of the TAP program but it also more informed our transitioning servicemembers 

of what resources are available in the community they are going 

to, and creating that advance warning to the local community is a 

benefit, and then measuring their success or failure as graduates 

of the program. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you all very much. I now recognize the 

ranking member for any questions he may have. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, I will throw 

this question out to anybody who feels they can answer it. How is 

it that we can retain or engage engaging instructors? I think part 

of the problem is that we have, we have got a large trainer corps 


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out there which has a great variety in terms of their skill level and 

equality and how do we retain these folks that are good, and how 

do we evaluate them? 

Mr. GALLAGHER. Ranking Member Takano, I just had an opportunity to visit with some of the transition facilitators as we do our 

routine site visits. And just from speaking to some of the contractors who facilitate this, I think they are doing a good job of that 

already. I think the contractor is hiring quality individuals who 

want to deliver quality training. Some of them that we speak, most 

of them that we speak to are veterans themselves or veteran family 

members, and of those veterans most of them are recently 

transitioned. So whatever they are doing to recruit these personnel 

they, in my opinion they seem to be doing a good job. 

Now retaining them in the long term and evaluating their effectiveness may be a different story. One of the concerns that we do 

have is the rigidity of the contract, especially when it comes to integrating community resources like VSOs, like DVOPs, and LVERs, 

who could provide the landscape around that military installation, 

what the employment situation is. I think that is why we are asking the committee to take a look at the rigidity of the contract and 

whether there is any flexibility that could be worked in to put 

those resources back in where appropriate. 

Mr. TAKANO. All right, thank you. Ms. Dunmyer, I want to turn 

to a question, since you represent, your organization represents 

students, how much of a factor should the type of institution and 

the type of accreditation the institution has be in a veteran’s decision of where to use their G.I. benefits? Do you think enough information about the type of accreditation is provided in TAP? I mean, 

for instance many veterans may not know that courses at a particular type of institution may not be transferrable. The difference 

between regional and national accreditation, for example. Is this 

information, how important is it? And is it in your opinion delivered with enough effectiveness? 

Ms. DUNMYER. Thank you, Ranking Member Takano. What is 

happening is that level of detail of information, you are normally 

not going to have time to be able to hear that information with 

military members as they are going through the TAP training. And 

that is why I think it is so important to have VSOs start to play 

an earlier role in the process. Because specifically SVA, we have 

got chapters on the ground throughout all of the 50 states. And 

what you would have happening there, and let me go back to your 

initial comment. Yes, there is a difference with the accreditation. 

Because unless your, you explain that in detail to the student vet, 

they don’t understand that some of the credits may not be 

transferrable. And so they are going into school and by the time 

they figure out that the 10 or 12 credits that they have taken previously are not going to be able to be transferred, now they have 

got to spend additional money or potentially go into debt. And so 

it is a downhill spiraling process that is going on. So what you 

want to be able to do is to inform them, make them, provide as 

much information to them before they actually start the process. 

And so having a part of that track where it is mandatory that they 

go down it if they are, they want to pursue college, it is also important to have the VSO there to be able to explain that process to 


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them. And in doing so, then they will be able to make a better informed decision about which schools that they want to go to. 

Mr. TAKANO. I wonder whether or not the federal government 

has been able to track, or VSOs track the decisions that students 

have made vis-α-vis what educational institution they are attending, and whether we are able to measure a level of regret that they 

would have made better decisions had they known. I mean, whether we have been able to assess retroactively among people who 

have used their veterans benefits? 

Ms. DUNMYER. We have been able to. The Million Records Project 

that was just done, phase one, we were able to track, and this was 

the first time that we have ever had research done on that population to find out who has gone to school, what were the degrees 

that they were pursuing, what were the types of institutions that 

they were actually enrolled in. So that was phase one of the Million 

Records Project. And what we found out was that you had 80 percent of the student veterans that were going or that had been enrolled in college from 2002 through 2010, 80 percent of them had 

attended public schools, ten percent of them were in private 

schools, and then another ten percent were in your proprietary 

schools. So there is information out there. 

Now that was phase one. Phase two, we are going back to look 

at the institutions themselves and look at the policies and practices 

of institutions. And what we want to be able to see is how much 

of a role the institutions play in helping veterans actually achieve 

success and attaining a degree from that institution. 

Mr. TAKANO. I am sorry, my time is up. Thank you. I would be 

very much interested in that information. Thank you. 

Ms. DUNMYER. Yes, sir. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. I now recognize the remaining members in order 

of arrival, alternating sides. First is Ms. Radewagen. 

Mrs. RADEWAGEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, ranking member, 

and members of the subcommittee, talofa. My home district of 

American Samoa is an isolated group of islands about five and a 

half hours by plane south of Hawaii. It’s the only U.S. soil that’s 

south of the equator. And for a small group of islands we have a 

tremendous number of our sons and daughters serving and that 

have served in the armed forces. In fact, ten percent of our entire 

population is made up of military veterans. I want to make sure 

we cover as much as possible for our veterans. Too often in the 

past, not just in this committee but throughout the House, legislation has passed Congress that has forgotten American Samoa and 

the territories and I am pleased to see that in this bill our veterans 

are eligible for this assistance just as those in the States are. 

I have a question for Mr. Gallucci. I appreciate your suggestion 

in your written testimony that you believe a disabled veterans outreach program and the local veterans employment representatives 

should be more involved in TAP. Short of repealing the law mandating that contractors teach TAP, how would you envision DVOPs 

and LVERs being more involved? 

Mr. GALLUCCI. Well, thank you for the question. I do want to 

clarify one point. We support further integration of DVOPs and 

LVERs in the transition process overall. However, given the scope 

of the training that Department of Labor needs to deliver or that 


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Department of Defense needs to deliver to transitioning 

servicemembers, that the way to go is through contract facilitation. 

The reason behind this is because through the TAP mandate in 

talking to the transition centers at major military installations, 

they are constantly running classes, five days a week, 48 to 50 

weeks a year. So the problem is if you had DVOPs and LVERs still 

facilitating the training they would have absolutely no time to 

work in their communities to identify job opportunities or work 

face to face with veterans who require their services. 

That being said, when we spoke to some of those responsible for 

transition management, their concern was that the contract 

facilitators did not necessarily integrate local resources into the 

Transition Assistance Program at all. So there was not really an 

opportunity for an LVER or a DVOP to come in and brief military 

personnel or make themselves available. These may have been isolated to a handful of military installations but it is something that 

we would want to look into to make sure that we are not losing 

that community connection that Colonel Sutherland stressed is so 

important. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Next Miss Rice, you have five minutes. 

Ms RICE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This question is for Ms. 

Dunmyer. What kind of training innovations would you suggest to 

improve the delivery of benefits information to avoid what you 

refer to and others have referred to as the death by Power Point 

situation? 

Ms. DUNMYER. My first suggestion would be that we advance 

with advancements in technology. There is quite a few universities 

out there that are using distance learning and e-learning types of 

venues. And I would recommend that that is one option, even 

though I know it has been previously discussed. I think that is 

more of a viable option than the current one that we have where 

you are sitting in a classroom. And I was a part of that. And while 

my first week of it, at least the first two days, I thought were very 

beneficial, I was very attentive. But after about two or three days 

and you are sitting in a classroom for eight hours and the information is coming at your nonstop, it tends to be repetitious and it 

starts to be boring even though it is beneficial information. So I 

would say that we start to look at other types of venues to present 

the information so that you alleviate some of the boredom and monotony that comes with that classroom environment. 

Ms RICE. One other question. For Mr. Gallucci, I am going to ask 

you this question. You spoke about the DoD and DoL formalizing 

their information sharing agreement. Does not, I would assume 

that DoL already has the names of veterans who are transitioning 

to civilian life as part of their own Employment Workshop? Is that 

true? I mean, it seems like the information is already—— 

Mr. GALLUCCI. Our understanding is they do not readily have 

that information at the moment. And that this is, this is being able 

to gather the information from these transition points and then distribute it to workforce development agencies that have, DVOPs and 

LVERs that have employment counselors who are able to deliver 

services directly to the veterans. This is something that Department of Labor first brought to our attention in 2012, that they 

were working to codify a formal agreement with Department of DeVerDate Aug 31 2005 13:56 Mar 10, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\97-995.TXT PAT

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fense. There have been several implementation points that have 

been missed. The most recent that I am aware of is September of 

2014, they were supposed to have an agreement implemented by, 

well like end of September, October 1, 2014. And that time lapsed 

and so that is really where we are at the moment. 

Ms RICE. What are, so what would you think is the reason for 

the lack of desire to use contract facilitators that you were referring to before, given the limited ability of DVOP and LVERs? 

Mr. GALLUCCI. As far as a reluctance to use contract—— 

Ms RICE. Well is there, what is the issue? 

Mr. GALLUCCI. I do not think there is. I think there is a concern, 

though, that local resources may not have as much of a presence 

in the Transition Assistance Program that they had before. So before they went to, before Department of Labor went to contract 

facilitators it was usually DVOPs or LVERs who conducted the 

training, who conducted the Department of Labor briefing for the 

TAP program. When they went to contract facilitation a lot of the 

DVOPs and LVERs were not able to participate in the TAP program at the level they used to and it was contract facilitation on 

all military installations so they are delivering the three-day Employment Workshop and DVOPs and LVERs would be integrated in 

other ways into the program. So that is the concern that we have 

heard from some DVOPs and LVERs. 

Our stance, from the VFW’s perspective, contract facilitation has 

to be the way to go given the scalability of the task of training everyone who is leaving the military. There would be, there is no reasonable way to expect JVSG grant recipients to continue to deliver 

that training given the scope of investment that we have made in 

the program. 

Ms RICE. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Mr. Costello, you are recognized for five minutes. 

Mr. COSTELLO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank 

each of you for your testimony. I believe I can generalize that each 

of you has said that TAP is an improvement but that TAP itself 

can be improved. And I think that it is refreshing for all of us to 

hear that TAP is an improvement. 

My question is directly oriented to Colonel Sutherland, although 

I invite anyone else to offer their comments. Colonel, I am just 

going to read a couple pieces of your testimony and then ask a 

question to provide the context. This is you speaking. I have found 

what typically separates a transition success story from a transition story of struggle and crisis lies in how a community welcomes, 

connects with, and responds to servicemembers leaving the military. We do not need more organizations but rather we need to 

harness existing community based programs and get organizations 

from across society to be inclusive of those touched by military 

service, to use our leadership locally to bring these organizations 

together to achieve collective impact. On page four you note, more 

needs to be done to localize the TAP training for transitioning 

servicemembers. And then to page seven you state that, you speak 

about the warm hand off between TAP and community as being 

lacking and there needs to be a more effective way of connecting 

the separating servicemember to the community he or she is planning to either prior to or during their transition. The DoD, for exVerDate Aug 31 2005 13:56 Mar 10, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\97-995.TXT PAT

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ample, is not designed to provide these follow along community 

supports but some type of hand off within the community to the 

state director of veterans services, American Job Center staff, or 

local veterans service organization could help promote smoother 

transitions. 

The question is, and it need not necessarily be an economic development agency although being a county commissioner, I mean, 

I am aware that every region has an economic development agency 

that handles workforce development programs. My question is because it is necessarily something very local, and because each community is a little bit different, do you envision sort of a unified delivery model for dealing with that warm hand off and for dealing 

with that ongoing issue of reintegration? Or is it something that 

really falls outside of government and is much more to use the 

term community based? I am curious if you could reflect on that 

a little bit further. Because I find it very interesting. And it really 

hits to the nexus of what the focus is, which is how do you transform TAP into its next iteration? 

Colonel SUTHERLAND. It does, and I understand exactly the challenge. The institutions need to err on the side of the veterans as 

opposed to err on the side of the institution, and to do that we have 

to understand if you have met a servicemember you have met a 

servicemember. If you have met a veteran, you have met a veteran. 

And if you are going to a community, you are going to a community. Each community has different resources, different capacity. 

And then what we have seen though in those communities, those 

local communities, is organizations that have stood up over the 

past several years because of this desire to want to connect and enable this generation of veterans. 

We have seen whole of society approaches take place, whether it 

is in Wilkes-Barre or whether it is in Cincinnati or Boise, Idaho 

with the Wyakin Warrior Program. But what we have seen is that 

as the veterans transition, a more personalized approach to connect 

them to what are their desires as opposed to what do we think they 

should do. And what we have seen is over the past year some great 

advancement as far as apprenticeships and internships through 

Skills Bridge, with DoD working with the VA, as well as with 

teamster organizations. Trade and local organizations are phenomenal at not only recognizing the skill sets of the veterans but 

then tying them to what do the veterans want to do? What does 

the servicemember want to do? And now with the opportunities 

with the changes in DoD regulations that took place last January, 

or instructions that have taken place last January, we are now 

doing internships on installations. We just kicked off in Fort Sill 

with the teamsters doing truck driver training with a large group 

that want to drive trucks, commercial rigs. And so understanding 

that it is a whole of society approach but tailoring it after the institutionalized training that they go through in the TAP program as 

they get closer. 

Because honestly when you are at 180 days out, I am thinking 

180, 179, 178, I am counting down. As you get closer to the end 

and having a follow up, a care coordination effort, but connecting 

them to some sort of network in their local community. And that 

is what the state directors of veterans services have been talking 


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about as well. Because we have been leaving them out of the conversations in some cases. Including them and then understanding 

that another part of this is building public awareness. The American people know what we are. They may not know us. They know 

we served in Iraq and Afghanistan, they know we served on a ship 

or an aircraft, we need to bring it down to a personal level once 

we connect with them in the local community. And that is why that 

network is so, so important. And having, harnessing community 

based programs. That is how J.P. Morgan has hired over 100,000, 

UBS has hired several thousand veterans. And through the work 

of local organizations coming together, what we have seen in Cincinnati that has reduced the unemployment. It is the public and 

private partnership that really takes place after that institutional 

training. Does that answer your question, sir? 

Mr. COSTELLO. It does. I appreciate that. 

Colonel SUTHERLAND. Thank you. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Ms. Titus, you are recognized for five minutes. 

Ms. TITUS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First I would like to say 

to Mr. Leghorn, I appreciated your observation and comment that 

the education track should be a mandatory part of the program. 

Because even if our servicemen and women are not thinking about 

going directly on to college, they need to have that information so 

they know what their options are down the road. Because many 

times they may get out for a year or two and then want to come 

back. And that brings me to my question to Ms. Dunmyer, I recently met with the student veterans at UNLV. And they like to 

go out to Nellis or to Creech and recruit some folks to come to 

UNLV. But they tell me that they have a hard time getting onto 

the bases, getting in touch with these young people. And they wonder how, what they can do to make it better. Because they believe 

if these folks heard from fellow students maybe as part of the TAP 

program it would be less boring than sitting in the classroom, as 

you referenced, and have some relevant information. I just wonder 

is this a problem across campuses? Is it just UNLV? Is there something we can do to maybe facilitate that relationship earlier in the 

process? 

Ms. DUNMYER. Well ma’am, I am not aware that that is a problem. I know access requirements or access standards are different 

for different installations. So it is something that we can go back 

and look at. But it should not be, their access onto the installation 

should not be a problem. I think the new policy for most installations is as long as you have got an ID normally you can gain access 

into the installation. 

Ms. TITUS. Well I do not think they had a problem getting onto 

the base. I am talking about access to the TAP program and being 

a part of maybe that transition in a formal way before people get 

out of the service, and then kind of disappear before they come 

back to UNLV. 

Ms. DUNMYER. Well, we do not. There is not a formal—— 

Ms. TITUS. That is my point. 

Ms. DUNMYER. Yes, ma’am. 

Ms. TITUS. Is there something we could do too, or do you not 

think that would be a good idea? 


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Ms. DUNMYER. That is what we are hoping to accomplish today. 

That is what we are hoping that will happen, will come out of this. 

That we are able to be, that SVA, the VSOs are able to be on the 

front end of the process instead of the back end. That we can be 

there when the decisions are made, we are a part of the discussions 

that are going on, and we can add to it. That is what we are trying 

to do here today. 

Ms. TITUS. I know that. I guess I was just looking for something 

a little more specific that we could be doing. But I, I appreciate the 

general sentiment and I share it. So maybe we will just go beyond 

students. We also have in Las Vegas gaming companies, like MGM 

and Harrah’s, have very active job fairs for veterans. But that is, 

again, after the fact. They are not at the front end, they are not 

on the facilities, they are not talking to the soldiers so to speak before they become veterans. Tell me how we can make that better, 

anybody who would address. Give me something specific. 

Mr. GALLUCCI. Madam Titus, thank you for the question. I think 

we can—there is a little bit of insight that the VFW has on this 

issue. So, first, there were a couple of memoranda that the Department of Defense put out very recently, the outgoing Secretary of 

Defense Hagel put out, about base access for nonprofit organizations, organizations that serve veterans. One was for organizations 

like The American Legion and the VFW who provide VA accredited 

disability claim service. The other is for organizations to conduct 

events on the installation. What that was is to clarify how you can 

make that happen. This may be something that UNLV can take a 

look at if they are having problems integrating into that system. 

We heard these issues a lot from who has access and who doesn’t 

have access to the TAP program, but I do want to say that there 

is a lot of innovation going on out there from what I have seen 

from the transition managers. The Department of Defense deserves 

a lot of credit for the men and women that they hire to manage 

their Transition Assistance Programs. They do integrate a lot of 

community resources beyond the scope of what we have mandated 

through the mandatory portion of TAP. 

For instance, out at Fort Lewis they have a lot of local employers 

that they integrate into the transition process. Fort Bragg has hiring events that are beyond hiring affairs; it is prescreened 

servicemembers who have res ́umes ready to go who have met with 

employers and then they just do interviews and they find jobs on 

the spot. There has been a lot of innovation, but I think one of the 

problems is consistency across the board or sharing of these good 

ideas; they are not identifying resources in those communities. 

Beyond that, as far as preparing servicemembers to make educational choices, there is something that I hit on in my testimony 

about the career technical track and the higher education track, 

and this actually speaks to what Ranking Member Takano was 

concerned about. In the career technical track there is an in-depth 

discussion about the difference in accreditation, what the model of 

a school is: for profit, nonprofit, career, education, and so on. There 

is not much of that in the higher education track and in many 

ways, they are complimentary, but a servicemember who doesn’t 

have reasonable access to all the tracks or knows where to look for 

this information may not find it. 


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And I think that speaks to what Chairman Wenstrup wants to 

see with mandating the education track and mandating other components of TAP. 

Ms. TITUS. Maybe we need an inventory of what is happening in 

different places so we can come up with best practices and have 

some consistency across the board. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. 

Mr. Gallucci, can you expand on suggestions for expanding the 

off-base TAP pilot program and do you believe that we are doing 

as best we can or what are your thoughts of that? 

Mr. GALLUCCI. That is an interesting question. OBTT was something the VFW and our partners in the veterans community really 

pushed for back in 2012 and we were happy to see it pass. But 

when it was implemented it probably could have been done with 

better community coordination. Now, recognizing the Department 

of Labor had very scant resources with which to implement the 

program, but I think the philosophy the VFW has behind supporting this is that when a veteran goes to an American Job Center 

to meet one-on-one with either an employment counselor or a 

DVOP, that is not the time to answer your general questions; it is 

a better use of that advisor’s time if you are ready to seek out a 

job. 

So if you have large-scale briefings like we do with the Transition Assistance Program on bases, you get a good baseline of information and then when you are ready for that one-on-one meeting, 

you go to that one-on-one meeting prepared to do work. We do the 

same thing with our disability claims assistance on military installations. So we rely on the contracted staff that VA provides to deliver the framework that you would need to know about the disability claims process. Where we fall into it is you schedule an appointment with one of our disability claims representatives and 

they go through your medical records; they help you fill out the paperwork; they take your power of attorney; and you file the claim 

from there. 

So that is the kind of interaction that we think could be fostered 

through OBTT is delivering resources at the right time in the community to the veterans and then when they seek out services, oneon-one services in an American Job Center, they are ready to find 

a job. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. 

Mr. Takano, you are recognized. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Ms. Titus, I mean I share your concern about trying to bring 

some of these job resources up to the front. Congressman Cook and 

I had cosponsored legislation for a pilot, Work for Warriors, which 

was not for veterans, but was for our guardsmen, but which directly placed people in the job. So we had employees that have jobs, 

we should be able to not just teach people how to get the jobs with 

the r ̃esums, but maybe find some direct placement. 

But the question I have—and I in no way want to denigrate technical or other tracks—but, Ms. Dunmyer, do you have any idea how 

many of our servicemembers who are transitioning have issues 

with remediation? Because as I understand it, remediation eduVerDate Aug 31 2005 13:56 Mar 10, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00024 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\97-995.TXT PAT

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cation—remedial education is not currently covered as a funded 

part of their benefits, and I have a suspicion that it cannot be too 

far off of what the community colleges in California face. I mean 

up to 80 percent of our community college students who come to 

us are not really college-ready, and I know many of our 

servicemembers who are not attending the non-mandatory education track may not fully partake of their education benefits because they may be insecure about their readiness for college. But 

I want to get a handle on, you know, just the student success or 

non-student success that is tied to this college readiness issue. How 

many more of our veterans would maybe take on higher education 

if remediation were maybe funded by their veterans benefits? 

And if you don’t have the answer, maybe some others of you 

might step forward. 

Ms. DUNMYER. I don’t have an exact number, but it is about 50, 

53 percent, and, of course, it is not funded and we have identified 

that, especially with some of the stem majors, that math is one of 

the biggest challenges for our student veterans going back because 

they have been out of the classroom for years and so a lot of that 

training that they received going—you know, coming through high 

school, they have lost that skill. 

Mr. TAKANO. So you are saying that up to 50 percent of our veterans who actually have—are interested in seeking higher education—we are not even talking about those veterans who may 

have been maybe—— 

Ms. DUNMYER. Graduating. 

Mr. TAKANO [continuing]. That our veterans who are going the 

higher education, using their benefits, up to 50 percent of them are 

sort of not college-ready at the outset, is that what you are saying? 

I mean it would seem to be a number that would be reasonable, 

given the generates that I have seen at community colleges. 

Colonel SUTHERLAND. Sir, if I can help? 

We have seen the graduation rate is what Student Veterans of 

America was talking about. How many are college-ready is difficult 

to assess because our veterans may not complete for different reasons. They may not complete graduation or get to graduation because 50 percent of them are married. They may not get—and they 

have to take care of their families, so—— 

Mr. TAKANO. So we are not able to tease out, just aggregate out 

how many of those students may have started college not completely ready and may have even gotten discouraged because they 

couldn’t complete their first year math or English class? 

Ms. DUNMYER. No, we are not able to give you an exact percentage of that, no, sir. But we can give you—it is, for the most part, 

I would say you still have a high percentage of graduates that are 

able to achieve their degree. Our percentages are similar to what 

your traditional student would complete their degree—time frame 

that they would complete their degree in, as well. 

Mr. TAKANO. And I recognize there are other challenges beyond 

maybe the college-readiness which may impact our graduation 

rates at the colleges, but, specifically, because we don’t fund remediation, remedial education, whether it is a semester, a year that 

we need to boost up that student’s skills, this is an area that I am 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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concerned with and trying to get a handle on the quantification of 

how many students may be involved. 

Ms. DUNMYER. Well, I can’t give you an exact percentage; what 

I can tell you is that that is an area that we have identified as a 

problem. And to go back to math—and what we started is we did 

a pilot program a couple of months ago and it was to focus on math 

because our student veterans identified that they were having 

problems with math and that they are having—that the universities are requiring that they take a preparatory course in order to 

be able to start their core math courses for a particular degree. 

So we started a pilot program with math. When we started out, 

we had—our hopes were that we would have at least 30 people that 

would enroll. To our surprise, it ended up being a little over a hundred—300 people that actually ended up enrolling in the course, 

and so from all measures, that was extremely successful. 

Now, because of that, what we started to do is to look at other 

areas that veterans are having problems with, as well, and we plan 

to do other pilots like that to address other areas that veterans are 

challenged in before they actually start their degree for studied. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 

the extra questioning time. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Sure. With votes coming up, if there is a second 

round of questions, if you could make them brief, I would appreciate it. 

Ms. Radewagen, you are recognized if you have another question. 

Ms. RADEWAGEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I’d like to express my proceedings to the entire panel. 

Colonel Sutherland, Dixon Center, I would like to thank you for 

sharing in your written statement the heartwarming story of the 

U.S. Marine Corps veteran named Gary which illustrates the efforts and positive effects that local nonprofits can provide to 

servicemembers. How can Congress and the Administration better 

assist nonprofits connect to servicemembers in need? 

Colonel SUTHERLAND. Yes, ma’am. 

It is a great question; I appreciate you asking. And I am happy 

to give you a more detailed answer, as well. What has taken place 

recently with the change in instructions from Secretary Hagel for 

access for VSOs needs to go further. It needs to broaden the definition of those that can have access. 

With the number of nonprofits that exist, every single one of 

them does a good job, but making sure that locally—I fought for 

my family, my neighbor and my community, and I come home to 

my family, my neighbor and my community, and so encouraging 

their participation through—and through expanding the efforts of 

SSVF, expanding the efforts of the Supportive Services for Veteran 

Families, as well as HVRP, and other efforts to locally connect 

those services and expanding the definition of in your community 

of asking other nonprofits just be inclusive. 

Easter Seals is an organization that has been inclusive of veterans since World War II and provides direct services to 165,000. 

We don’t market. We don’t spend a lot of money marketing. So it 

is build public awareness, encourage community involvement and 

promote community-based services, and I am happy to give you a 

much more expansive answer, as well. 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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And we appreciate our American Samoans that have fought with 

us, as well. I had a large number in my brigade combat team. 

Ms. RADEWAGEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Well, if there are no other questions, I want to 

thank the first panel for being here today. You are now excused, 

but thank you for your dedication to our country and to our 

servicemembers. 

I now invite our second panel to the witness table. Joining us is 

Mr. Curt Coy, Deputy Under Secretary for Economic Opportunity 

at the Department of Veterans Affairs; Ms. Teresa Gerton, Deputy 

Assistant Secretary at the Veterans’ Employment and Training 

Service at the Department of Labor; and Dr. Susan Kelly, Director 

of the Transition to Veterans Program Office at the Department of 

Defense. 

I thank you for being with us today and for your service to our 

nation’s veterans. 

Mr. Coy, let’s begin with you; you are now recognized for five 

minutes, sir. 

STATEMENT OF CURTIS L. COY 

Mr. COY. Well, thank you, Chairman Wenstrup, Ranking Member Takano, and other members of the subcommittee. 

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the current status of VA’s Transition Assistance Program. Accompanying me today is Ms. Rosye Cloud, our senior advisor for 

veteran employment and the acting director of the VBA/DoD Program Office, the organization in my office that managing the dayto-day operations of TAP. 

We all believe that it is critical for today’s servicemembers are 

prepared to transition to civilian life. We have been working collaboratively with all of our partners to deliver transition tools to 

help them and their families. It’s been a whirlwind time frame, and 

for the most part, a successful journey. 

In November 2011, Congress passed and the President signed 

the VOW to Hire Heroes Act which made participation in TAP 

mandatory for all servicemembers. The following month a joint Veterans Employment Initiative Task Force delivered its principal recommendations, all of which have been incorporated into TAP. 

The new VA curriculum now consists of two briefings broken into 

four and two-hour sessions. Additionally, last year, VA fully deployed the career technical training track, a course designed for 

servicemembers wishing to transition into technical fields that may 

not require—that may require additional credentials, but certainly 

not a four-year degree. A contract vehicle was put into place to provide the resources and expertise to deliver TAP worldwide. 

Our contractors share VA’s commitment to veteran employment. 

Ninety-five percent of our benefits advisors are veterans. Four percent are military spouses. We currently have over 300 VA benefits 

advisors permanently stationed at 107 military installations who 

also provide itinerant support to an additional 189 military installations worldwide. We are reaching out to those communities outside the gates of those installations as well changing the way 

servicemembers view us. 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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Between our 300 benefits advisors and our 400 IDES staff, we 

are now permanently stationed in hundreds of locations. We consider reaching out to servicemembers while they are still in uniform and where they work is critical. TAP GPS is the key front 

door to the VA. 

To meet the needs of the National Guard and Reserve component 

members, VA deployed benefits advisors at all formal demobilization locations, as well as we remain flexible for Yellow Ribbon and 

community-based events. In just over the last 15 months, through 

the middle of this month, VA has conducted over 10,000 benefits 

briefings to over 280,000 servicemembers. 

VA and our partner agencies have also developed an online—developed a virtual curriculum hosted on the Joint Knowledge Online 

Web site, providing access from remote sites. We have also posted 

the complete curriculum on our eBenefits portal. 

VA has developed and implemented a comprehensive approach to 

quality assurance. Benefits advisors complete a rigorous training 

program before being placed in the field and we follow up that 

training with intensive site visits. 

VA has worked hard to develop a number of tools to help and assist transitioning servicemembers do everything possible to help 

them become informed consumers of their benefits ranging from career scope, GI Bill comparison tool, feedback tools, choosing the 

right school, and most recently, the Veterans Employment Center 

or VEC. 

The VEC is the federal government’s single authoritative Internet source for connecting transitioning servicemembers, veterans 

and their families to meaningful career opportunities. It is the first 

government-wide product that brings together a cadre of public and 

private employers with real job opportunities. Currently, 1.7 million posted on the VEC, thanks in large part to our Department of 

Labor partners. It also provides tools to translate military skills 

into language that civilian employers can understand. Job seekers 

can also build a profile to share with employers. Since its launch 

nine months ago, we have seen the VEC have over nine million 

visitors. 

The VA has incorporated all of these tools into our briefings and 

all benefits advisors have been fully trained. Finally, it is important to note and acknowledge our veteran service organizations 

who are often included in our TAP sessions. VA collaboratively 

works with our partner agencies to continually improve the quality 

and breadth of our TAP program. We have come a long way, but 

also know there is more to do. 

Mr. Chairman, we are rowing hard and we will continue to do 

so. This concludes my statement. I would be pleased to answer any 

questions you or other members of the subcommittee may have. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF CURTIS L. COY APPEARS IN THE

APPENDIX] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Mr. Coy. 

Ms. Gerton, you are now recognized for five minutes. 


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STATEMENT OF TERESA W. GERTON 

Ms. GERTON. Good afternoon, Chairman Wenstrup, Ranking 

Member Takano and distinguished members of the Subcommittee. 

My name is Teresa Gerton and I am the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Policy at the Veterans’ Employment and Training Service in the Department of Labor. 

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in today’s hearing 

to discuss the implementation of the revised Transition Assistance 

Program, Transition Goals, Plans, Success, also known as GPS. 

Since the inception of TAP over 20 years ago, the Department of 

Labor has provided training and services through the Employment 

Workshop to over 2.6 million separating or retiring servicemembers 

and their spouses. Last year alone, DoL conducted more than 6,600 

Employment Workshops for over 207,000 participants at 206 military installations worldwide. 

The VOW Act of 2011 required that DoL use contract facilitators 

to deliver its Employment Workshops, to ensure a standardized, 

high-quality professional cadre of facilitators. DoL awarded a contract to GBX Consultants, Incorporated, a Service Disabled-Veteran-Owned Small Business in August of 2012 for the facilitation 

of all DoL Employment Workshops. 

In fiscal year 2013 we unveiled an entirely new Employment 

Workshop that provides a highly effective training experience and 

prepares servicemembers for a successful transition to the civilian 

workplace at all military installations worldwide. This three-day 

program uses modern adult learning techniques to actively engage 

transitioning servicemembers in critical transition skills. 

Along with the synchronous virtual workshop, DoL worked with 

DoD Joint Knowledge Online to convert the Employment Workshop 

instructor-led classroom curriculum into an asynchronous online 

distance learning format. This is a self-paced online version of the 

Employment Workshop that servicemembers can use to reinforce 

and refresh what they have learned in the classroom. 

On day one, participants develop their Change Management Plan 

And identify overall strategies for transitioning into the civilian 

workforce. On day two, participants learn how to analyze the job 

market and use social media in job searches and networking. On 

day three, instructors impart critical information about special veterans’ hiring authorities and how the federal job application process differs from the private sector. 

Throughout the Employment Workshop, participants work extensively on their master job application, targeted r ̃esums, and interviewing skills, and finish with a mock interview exercise. Instructors also discuss relevant employment services, including benefits 

available to dislocated workers that are available to assist 

transitioning servicemembers, veterans, and their families before, 

during, and after their separation from the military. 

All veterans, including recently separated servicemembers receive priority service in DoL-funded employment and training programs. Many of these programs and services are available through 

the nationwide network of nearly 2,500 American Job Centers. 

During the DoL-Employment Workshop, servicemembers learn that 

they are entitled to intensive services for up to six months at an 

American Job Center. 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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DoL is pleased to report that the new Employment Workshop 

curriculum has been well received. Of the 11,000 participants who 

responded to the most recent survey, 91 percent reported that they 

would use what they learned in their own transition planning and 

89 percent reported that the DoL Employment Workshop enhanced 

their confidence in transition planning. DoL will continue to review 

feedback and evaluate the program to ensure that the curriculum 

remains relevant, that meaningful learning is taking place, and 

that servicemembers feel prepared to transition from military service and pursue other career goals. 

Joining my colleagues from the other agencies, I want to remark 

on the strong partnership we have across the federal government 

in executing this program. We meet regularly to administer and 

update the program and we are proud of our collaboration on numerous initiatives including the Veterans Employment Center, the 

DoD SkillBridge Program, and our joint participation with the 

Chamber of Commerces’ Hiring Our Heroes job summits at installations around the country. The Department looks forward to working with the Subcommittee to ensure that our separating 

servicemembers have the resources and training they need to successfully transition to the civilian workforce. 

Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Takano, and distinguished 

members of the committee, that concludes my oral statement. 

Thank you for the opportunity. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF TERESA W. GERTON APPEARS IN

THE APPENDIX] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Ms. Gerton. 

Dr. Kelly, you are now recognized for five minutes. 

STATEMENT OF DR. SUSAN KELLY 

Ms. KELLY. Good afternoon, Chairman Wenstrup and Ranking 

Member Takano and distinguished members of the subcommittee. 

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today joined by 

my colleagues from the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Department of Labor to discuss the status of implementing the redesigned TAP. 

Redesigning TAP in collaboration are our interagency partners 

brings together a unique set of capabilities benefitting approximately one million servicemembers separating from active duty 

over the next four years. The foundation of the redesigned TAP is 

a set of career-readiness standards that are verified for all 

transitioning servicemembers during a Capstone event no later 

than 90 days prior to separation. If career readiness standards are 

not met, the servicemembers are provided further training or a 

warm hand-over to interagency partners who ensure 

servicemembers receive post-separation assistance. 

Part of the redesign includes the robust transition GPS curriculum, goals, plan, success. It builds the skills that transitioning 

servicemembers will need to meet career-readiness standards and 

it is now fully implemented at 206 military sites in the United 

States and overseas. In addition to VOW Act mandated requirements, transition GPS includes modules for financial planning and 

a military occupational code crosswalk to civilian workforce skills. 

It also includes three supplement training tracks, accessing higher 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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education, career technical training and entrepreneurship. To ensure that all servicemembers have access to the transition GPS regardless of their duty, station or location, we have made it available virtually on DoD’s Joint Knowledge Online platform. 

Another area of substantial progress is within our evaluation and 

assessment of TAP. DoD, in collaboration with our partners developed a TAP-evaluation strategy to address three overarching goals, 

accountability, customer satisfaction, and program effectiveness 

with long-term measures being developed by VA, DoL, and the 

Small Business Administration. Outcome measures are a priority 

for the TAP evaluations strategy, beginning with VOW Act and career-readiness standards compliance. 

Based on the Defense Manpower Data Center, verified data for 

fiscal year to date 2015 across the services, that compliance for 

their active-duty servicemembers ranged from 91 to 97 percent. 

These results account for three-quarters of the members who are 

separated from active duty. We realize, however, that we must 

work hard to close the remaining reporting gap. 

In fiscal year 2014, we also focused an commune indicating our 

redesigned TAP to servicemembers. Throughout the month of September, 2014, we conducted a comprehensive communications campaign. For your reference, we have provided materials to each one 

of the members of the subcommittee. This year we shifted our focus 

to implementation of the Military Life Cycle TAP Transition Model. 

This marks a major cultural shift for the Department. In December, 2014, the military services reported to the White House that 

Military Life Cycle Transition preparation was fully implemented 

at their installations, which the new TAP interagency governing 

structure will continue to monitor and improve. 

Your continued support is greatly appreciated and I look forward 

to your questions. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF SUSAN KELLY APPEARS IN THE AP- PENDIX] 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. I thank you all for your remarks and 

I now yield myself five minutes for questioning. 

One of the things we discussed with the first panel is looking at 

long-term outcomes, you know, long-term outcomes beyond just instructor surveys that immediately follow going to TAP. We all 

know that in human nature we can sometimes lead a horse to 

water, but we can’t make them drink, and there are times where 

we have to be careful that we are not setting someone up for failure in engaging in something where they are not going to succeed. 

But my question of you is what can we, here, what can we do 

to help you track these outcomes more successfully down the road 

to see where we are and make adjustments as we go? And I will 

go down the line. 

Mr. COY. I will go ahead and start off, Mr. Chairman. 

I think tracking long-term outcomes is an incredibly valuable tool 

as we go forward. We have discussed with our partners a number 

of different things. One thing that we are doing and we are putting 

together is putting in our voice of the veteran survey TAP and 

making sure we are working with our partners to make sure that 

we ask the right questions and the right amount of questions as 

well. We also are looking at ways that we could possibly do longituVerDate Aug 31 2005 13:56 Mar 10, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00031 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\97-995.TXT PAT

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dinal approaches. We do longitudinal studies in both VRE and education, and we are looking at ways that we could add TAP to that 

mix. And then most certainly, I think, Mr. Chairman, you referenced it in your opening statement, we recently released our economic opportunity report. It is the first that we have ever done and 

we plan on making TAP also a part of future economic opportunity 

reports, as well. 

Ms. GERTON. DoL does track the long-term outcomes of individuals who receive services at an American Job Center. We track 

three particular metrics, entered employment, retained employment, and average six-month salary. 

Beginning in 2013 we added a field that asked incoming veterans 

for services at American Job Centers whether or not they had participated in the TAP program within the last three years. As states 

implement that new data element in their reporting systems, we 

are beginning to gather information about the outcomes of TAP 

participants, as distinguished from other veterans who may not 

have gone through that. As that reporting process matures, we will 

have better outcome-related data to TAP participants who do get 

services through an American Job Center. 

We are also working very closely with our colleagues in DoD to 

create an opt-in field for servicemembers when they go through the 

Capstone counseling that will allow them to provide personal contact information for eventual follow-up by DoD counselors so that 

we can have a better long-term picture of what is going on with 

them as they transition. As we mature that collection process with 

DoD, we will keep you informed. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Well, that is one of my questions you mentioned 

there, is how you are maintaining that communication, and is it by 

email? Is it by telephone? Are they coming in to meet with you? 

Are they coming in six months later? A year later? Two years 

later? What is the timeline and how are you maintaining that communication? 

Ms. GERTON. Right now our maintenance records track individuals who are receiving services at the job centers and then they become part of our long-term record. We don’t, at this point, have the 

means of communicating with individuals who haven’t opted to provide their personal contact information to our job centers, so that 

is what we are working on with DoD. 

Once we do that, then we will have the data transmission and 

sharing agreement with DoD that will allow us to maintain that 

contact. We hope to contact that local outreach push that out 

through our job centers. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. So in that vein, is there something that we need 

to be doing here? 

Ms. GERTON. I think in terms of getting that communication and 

data sharing underway, we have all the support that we need. In 

the longer term, there may be issues relating to DoL’s ability to 

track individuals to their long-term wage records that would allow 

us to have a better long-term perspective on an individual’s outcomes over their life cycle. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Currently, what is your timeline? For those that 

you do have that communication set up, what is your timeline? Are 

you checking with them again after they get a job? Are you checkVerDate Aug 31 2005 13:56 Mar 10, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00032 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\97-995.TXT PAT

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ing with them again in six months? Are they still there? Are you 

checking with them in a year? 

Ms. GERTON. We track their outcomes for the three quarters 

after they have received their last service. So did they enter employment in the quarter following their last American Job Center 

service? Then we look to see if they had wage records in the next 

two quarters. And we follow that through until there was some reason that they needed American Job Center services again, they 

would come back into the survey. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Okay. Thank you. 

Dr. Kelly. 

Ms. KELLY. Well, we recognize that data tracking and the tracking of our servicemembers as they went through the redesigned 

TAP would be a concern, so what we have done is we developed, 

through the Capstone process, which is part of the TAP redesign, 

is a completion of a new defense form. So every single servicemember who is transitioning and separates, just like they get a DD214 

also gets a new copy of this form. That data is fed to the Defense 

Management Data Center and we have established a web service 

that will allow our partners to tap into that data and track those 

servicemembers. That IT architecture and those business cases and 

those approvals are still going through the processes right now. 

But what we are also doing through DMDC, again, it is the Defense Manpower Data Center, is to actually pilot with eight states 

the flow of the data from the DD214 on every servicemember to 

each of those states. We are piloting that because as you go to each 

state, the ability of the states and the local communities to capture 

that data and to secure that data varies from one state to the next. 

So it is an IT architecture issue within each one of the states that 

has to be addressed. But we started that pilot in January and we 

will see how that progresses and report out to you the results of 

that once that pilot is completed. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you very much. 

I now recognize Ranking Member Takano for five minutes. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Ms. Gerton, you mentioned that servicemembers must meet career-readiness standards. Can you—what does that mean? 

Ms. GERTON. These are established in a partnership with both 

the Veterans Affairs agency and the Department of Defense in 

terms of what the servicemembers must be prepared to demonstrate in terms of which career track they plan to take. For example, if they are going to go to higher education, there is a checklist of things that they need to demonstrate. 

If they are looking to get a job, from our perspective, they have 

to demonstrate that they have completed the basics of the exercises 

in the TAP class. They have to present a res ́ume ́s and a cover letter. They have to provide the results of their skills assessment. 

They have to show that they have done a local market job survey 

so that they have assessed whether or not the positions that they 

are interested in are available in the community that they would 

like to go back to and an understanding of the salary range that 

might be appropriate for them. And then they have to demonstrate 

that they have looked for or have made progress towards getting 

some job interviews. 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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If they haven’t, then they go back through for remediation processes, either back through TAP, back through additional counseling, or in our case, they may be referred to the local American 

Job Center for additional intervention. 

Mr. TAKANO. Can you incorporate the concerns about soft skills 

mentioned by the earlier panel into the career-readiness section? 

Ms. GERTON. We take all the input from our stakeholders very 

seriously. We are sort of limited in the amount of time we have to 

communicate the material in the TAP class. We have basically 

three days, eight hours a day to get them all the way through all 

the basic fundamentals of how to do a job search. We do an annual 

curriculum review; in fact, just this week, we are rolling out our 

new curriculum that replaced some outdated information, adds in 

information about disability, entitlements, education about the Veterans Employment Center, and some of the other new tools that 

are available. We do that on an annual cycle and we are getting 

ready to kick off another annual curriculum review here in the 

next couple of months, so we will certainly take that under advisement. 

Mr. TAKANO. This might not be under your purview, it might be 

under Mr. Coy’s, but is there any point, you know, an emphasis on 

this career-readiness standards, assessing whether or not—what 

about the college-readiness, I mean, in terms of whether—obviously 

we don’t do enough of the assessment of whether students are 

ready actually to go to college, but can you comment on that Mr. 

Coy. 

Mr. COY. Absolutely, Congressman Takano. 

As you know from past years, this is also a subject that I am passionate about as well. What is interesting with the students that 

we see coming out, we don’t know how many of those students require remedial training or not, but often times as we go through 

this process, I tell folks that 36 months of Post-9/11 G.I. Bill benefits is two semesters for four years and there is not much room for 

do-overs that are in there. 

So we share your concern as well about remediation. It is one of 

those things that we saw in our public-private partnership strategy 

that Ms. Cloud has been working on. We, right now, have an organization called Coursera and they are offering a free online remedial-type course on the Veterans Employment Center. So we are 

doing those kinds of things. Interestingly, as well, SVA has come 

out with a mentor-type program where they also provide those 

kinds of things. 

And then the other final thing is we currently have a 

VetsSuccess on campus counselor on 94 campuses across the country. We are hoping to expand that, as well, where we have VR 

counselors literally on campus full-time. 

Mr. TAKANO. That is wonderful. 

Dr. Kelly [continuing]. I want to thank you, Mr. Coy, Dr. Kelly, 

I want to commend the Department of Defense for it is Military 

Life Cycle concept. I am just wondering if there is an opportunity 

for you all to think about when a servicemember might identify an 

interest in a higher education, and if there is a possibility of being 

able to assess that student or that servicemember in terms of their 

college-readiness and then find ways to encourage that student 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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years before, sometime before they exit to begin to address any 

readiness issues they might have, and even if the Defense Department could encourage that to happen? 

Ms. KELLY. Well, I wish the DoD could take credit for the Military Life Cycle TAP singularly, but that was a concept that was developed by the Task Force and was the bedrock of the TAP redesign. We developed the transitioning GPS curriculum, reverse engineered it to build the career-readiness standards, but all along, the 

fourth recommendation to the president was to embed that entire 

curriculum across Military Life Cycle touch points. 

So, for instance, to your point about assessments, one of the career-readiness standards is an educational assessment and that is 

to be done at the first duty site of the servicemembers, so that is 

a career-readiness standard. 

Mr. TAKANO. I would love to get hold of that material from the 

DoD. 

Ms. KELLY. Sure. 

Mr. TAKANO. Wonderful. I commend you all for doing that. 

Ms. KELLY. Happy to provide it. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. They are going to be calling the votes in about 

five minutes. Hopefully we can get through the members’ questions 

before we have to go, and with that, I recognize Ms. Radewagen for 

five minutes. 

Ms. RADEWAGEN. My pleasure. 

As part of the Capstone event, the TAP MOU requires that a 

commander sign off if the servicemember meets the career-readiness standards. What type of training are commanders, or really 

their designees, being given to ensure that they are qualified to 

make such a distinction, and what happens if the commander does 

not sign his paperwork? 

Ms. KELLY. Actually, each one of the services was required to 

provide their plan on how they were going to educate the commanders for their new responsibilities for the entire transition 

GPS, as well as that Capstone. So that is taking place in the service schoolhouses, commanders’ and leadership courses right now. 

The commanders, or someone in the chain of command, it is a mandate to have those career-readiness standards reviewed and signed 

off by the commander or the commander’s designee, as well as the 

transition staff because commanders may or may not have the expertise in all of the career-readiness standards. So the review is 

first conducted by the transition staff. It’s also signed off by the 

servicemember. 

If a career-readiness standard is not met in the servicemember’s 

personal goal pathway, if you allow me that word, the warm handoff to one of our partner agencies is also documented. So the staff 

member to whom that warm hand-over is given is actually documented again on that DD form. 

We are not seeing a problem with either the commanders or the 

commander’s designee signing off on those DD forms. 

Ms. RADEWAGEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. 

Ms. Rice. 

Ms. RICE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 


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This is for Ms. Gerton. During the DoL’s Employment Workshops, are private sector employers brought in to do mock interviews, and if so, are you getting feedback to the servicemembers on 

their interview performance? I mean is there any aspect of private 

sector involvement? 

Ms. GERTON. So, actually during the eight hours a day for the 

three days, we do not have private sector involvement. The mock 

interviews are managed within the classroom itself and individuals 

are provided feedback on their performance through the instructor 

staff, the facilitators; however, at the discretion of the individual 

TAP managers on the bases, they may be able to bring in private 

sector folks around the curriculum to have additional conversations 

with the servicemembers, especially those that are in the practice 

of hiring veterans, I think that would be—— 

Ms. RICE. Thank you. I yield back my time. Thank you. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. 

Ms. Titus, you are recognized for five minutes. 

Ms. TITUS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I would like to ask you, Mr. Coy, a question about how you explain VBA benefits to separating servicemembers as part of the 

TAP program, especially benefits for same-sex couples. As you 

know, the Department of Defense recognizes marriage equality and 

provides marriage benefits to all families of active duty members 

of the armed services; unfortunately, due to an outdated law, the 

VA is unable to provide benefits to married couples in a few states 

that are home to a large number of veterans. 

So that means that an active-duty member can have access to 

certain benefits on Monday and lose them on Tuesday as he or she 

separates from the armed services. Now, I don’t think that is fair, 

but this committee last year voted to continue the injustice. 

Now, you said that TAP is the front door to the VA, but apparently there is no welcome mat in front of that door for some of our 

veterans. So how do you explain to them that these are the benefits 

that they will or will not be getting when they go through the TAP 

program? 

Mr. COY. Congresswoman, I couldn’t agree more that we need to 

get better at explaining the same-sex benefits. We do the VA benefits, and as I mentioned, a four-hour course and a two-hour course. 

VA has fully embraced the same-sex marriage provisions. There 

are statutory things that are in the way of that, and so we are 

sometimes caught in the middle of that, if you will, from that perspective, but we try to explain as best we can to our 

servicemembers as they are going through their VA benefits briefs. 

Ms. TITUS. Thank you. 

I yield back. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Well, thank you. 

If there are no further questions, I want to thank everyone here 

today for taking time to come to share your views on this critical 

program. As I have said before, I believe that if we can get TAP 

right and effectively prepare our transitioning servicemembers for 

life after active duty, we can probably mitigate a lot of the problems and issues that our veterans face. 


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Finally, I ask unanimous consent that all members have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and include extraneous material. 

Without objection, so ordered. 

The hearing is now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:45 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 


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