S. HRG. 114–166 

ENERGY EFFICIENCY LEGISLATION 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

COMMITTEE ON 

ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

ON 

ENERGY EFFICIENCY LEGISLATION 

APRIL 30, 2015 

( 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Energy and Natural Resources 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
ENERGY EFFICIENCY LEGISLATION 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800

Fax: (202) 512–2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402–0001

95–273 2016

S. HRG. 114–166 

ENERGY EFFICIENCY LEGISLATION 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

COMMITTEE ON 

ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

ON 

ENERGY EFFICIENCY LEGISLATION 

APRIL 30, 2015 

( 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Energy and Natural Resources 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman 

JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming 

JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho 

MIKE LEE, Utah 

JEFF FLAKE, Arizona 

STEVE DAINES, Montana 

BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana 

CORY GARDNER, Colorado 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota 

LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee 

SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

RON WYDEN, Oregon 

BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont 

DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan 

AL FRANKEN, Minnesota 

JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia 

MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico 

MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii 

ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine 

ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts 

KAREN K. BILLUPS, Staff Director 

PATRICK J. MCCORMICK III, Chief Counsel 

CATHERINE CAHILL, Congressional Fellow 

ANGELA BECKER-DIPPMANN, Democratic Staff Director 

SAM E. FOWLER, Democratic Chief Counsel 

ALLEN STAYMAN, Democratic Professional Staff Member 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page 

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman, and a U.S. Senator from Alaska .................. 1 

Cantwell, Hon. Maria, Ranking Member, and a U.S. Senator from Washington .................................................................................................................... 2 

Portman, Hon. Rob, a U.S. Senator from Ohio ..................................................... 11 

Hoeven, Hon. John, a U.S. Senator from North Dakota ...................................... 16 

Gardner, Hon. Cory, a U.S. Senator from Colorado ............................................. 17 

Stabenow, Hon. Debbie, a U.S. Senator from Michigan ....................................... 17 

WITNESSES 

Collins, Hon. Susan M., a U.S. Senator from Maine ............................................ 5 

Coons, Hon. Christopher A., a U.S. Senator from Delaware ............................... 7 

Shaheen, Hon. Jeanne, a U.S. Senator from New Hampshire ............................ 9 

Schatz, Hon. Brian, a U.S. Senator from Hawaii ................................................. 12 

Klobuchar, Hon. Amy, a U.S. Senator from Minnesota ........................................ 14 

Hogan, Dr. Kathleen B., Deputy Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency, 

Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, U.S. Department of 

Energy ................................................................................................................... 18 

Crasi, Tony, on behalf of the National Association of Home Builders and 

Owner and Founder, The Crasi Company, Inc. ................................................. 34 

Gayer, Dr. Ted, Vice President and Director of Economic Studies, Joseph 

A. Pechman Senior Fellow, The Brookings Institution ..................................... 73 

Nadel, Steven, Executive Director, American Council for an Energy-Efficient 

Economy ................................................................................................................ 77 

Therriault, Hon. Gene, Vice-Chairman, National Association of State Energy 

Officials, and Deputy Director, Energy Policy and Outreach, Alaska Energy 

Authority ............................................................................................................... 94 

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED 

Alaska Native Tribal Health Consortium: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 156 

Alexander, Hon. Lamar: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 242 

Alliance to Save Energy & the American Council for an Energy-Efficient 

Economy: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 243 

American Chemistry Council: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 245 

American Gas Association regarding S. 1029 and S. 869: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 247 

American Gas Association, et al., regarding S. 1029: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 252 

American Gas Association, et al., regarding S. 869: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 254 

American Institute of Architects: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 256 

American Public Gas Association: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 263 

ASHRAE: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 271 

Association of Art Museum Directors: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 280 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
Page

IV 

Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 281 

Big Ass Solutions: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 285 

Bristol Bay Native Corporation and CCI Group, LLC: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 287 

Business Council for Sustainable Energy: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 290 

Callahan, Kateri, President, The Alliance to Save Energy: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 295 

Cantwell, Hon. Maria 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 2 

CenterPoint Energy: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 301 

Chamber of Commerce of the United States of America: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 304 

Coca-Cola Company: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 305 

Collins, Hon. Susan M.: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 5 

Consumer Federation of America and National Consumer Law Center: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 308 

Consumers Union: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 310 

Coons, Hon. Christopher A.: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 7 

Crasi, Tony: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 34 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 36 

Responses to Questions for the Record ........................................................... 142 

DNV-GL: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 313 

Efficiency First and Home Performance Coalition: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 321 

Energy Efficiency Business Group: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 326 

Enterprise Community Partners, et al.: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 329 

Environmental Defense Fund: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 331 

Federal Performance Contracting Coalition: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 333 

Gardner, Hon. Cory: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 17 

Gayer, Dr. Ted: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 73 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 75 

Responses to Questions for the Record ........................................................... 146 

Geothermal Exchange Organization: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 341 

GoodCents Holdings, Inc.: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 342 

Habitat for Humanity: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 348 

Hoeven, Hon. John: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 16 

Hogan, Dr. Kathleen B.: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 18 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 21 

Responses to Questions for the Record ........................................................... 128 

Information Technology Industry Council: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 352 

Institute for Market Transformation: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 356 

Insulation Contractors Association of America: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 359 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
Page

V 

Jewish Federation of North America: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 360 

Klobuchar, Hon. Amy: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 14 

Leading Builders of America: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 361 

Markey, Hon. Edward J.: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 365 

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 1 

Nadel, Steven: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 77 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 79 

Responses to Questions for the Record ........................................................... 148 

NAIOP (Commercial Real Estate Development Association): 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 366 

NAIOP (Commercial Real Estate Development Association) regarding S. 1052: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 367 

National Association of Energy Service Companies: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 369 

National Association of Manufacturers: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 372 

National Association of Realtors: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 374 

National Electrical Manufacturers Association: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 375 

National Ground Water Association: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 382 

National Housing Trust: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 383 

National Insulation Association: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 386 

National Propane Gas Association: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 390 

NiSource, Inc.: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 393 

Portland Cement Association: 

Memorandum for the Record ........................................................................... 396 

Portman, Hon. Rob: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 11 

Public Citizen: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 398 

Puget Sound Energy: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 400 

Real Estate and Construction Industry: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 402 

Retail Industry Leaders Association: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 407 

Sanders, Hon. Bernard: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 408 

SAVE Act Coalition: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 412 

Schatz, Hon. Brian: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 12 

Shaheen, Hon. Jeanne: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 9 

Stabenow, Hon. Debbie: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 17 

Therriault, Hon. Gene: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 94 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 96 

Responses to Questions for the Record ........................................................... 150 

Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 415 

United States Conference of Mayors: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 419 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
Page

VI 

Vermont Energy Investment Corporation: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 436 

Vermont Public Service Department: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 439 

The text for each of the bills which were addressed in this hearing can be found on the 

committee’s website at: http://www.energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/hearings-and-businessmeetings?ID=a7ea3045-7029-4e1e-abeb-edf57628ab47. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
(1) 

ENERGY EFFICIENCY LEGISLATION 

THURSDAY, APRIL 30, 2015 

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES, Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m. in room 

SD–366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lisa Murkowski, 

Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI, U.S. 

SENATOR FROM ALASKA 

The CHAIRMAN. Good morning. We will call to order the Energy 

Committee this morning. We are here today to consider a whole 

host of bills pertaining to energy efficiency. We will have two panels this morning before the Committee. 

One, a panel of Senators who wish to speak about their legislation, and one of subject matter experts who can speak both to the 

bills that we are considering today and the broader topic of energy 

efficiency overall. 

So thank you all for coming and helping us understand the impact of the various bills that we have before us. 

This hearing is also an important next step in the development 

of the Energy Committee’s very broad-based energy bill. This is the 

first of four legislative hearings that we will hold in the next 

month. There will be one hearing for each title we will be considering. 

We had a success last week with the Energy Efficiency Improvement Act. It was good to see that that has now moved forward 

through the process, and unanimous passage of that legislation, I 

think, indicates the level of support for energy efficiency. It also indicates the Senate is really capable of coming together to pass efficiency legislation that saves both energy and money. It is good for 

the consumers. It is good for all. 

This issue, the issue of energy efficiency, I think, is a good, bipartisan place to start our discussions when we are talking about Federal energy policy. We have 22 bills before us today. I think that 

is some measure of the interest that we have in this. Some of the 

measures are very well vetted. We have seen them before. We have 

Senator Portman and Senator Shaheen’s Energy Savings and Industrial Competitiveness Act. We have some new ones such as the 

Smart Building Acceleration Act and some like the PREPARE Act 

which encourages collaboration across many levels of government 

and stakeholders. Others are targeted towards a more specific 

need. For example, the ceiling fan fix. How much more specific 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
2 

could we be than ceiling fans? Several reauthorize established programs and several others require new standards and programs. 

Some are voluntary in nature while some are mandatory. Still others seek to make the Federal Government more effective in financing and implementing efficiency projects. 

Taken as a whole the bills before us cover a wide variety of efficiency ideas. They offer the potential to reduce energy usage and 

costs across our country and throughout our economy. They put forward methods to enhance our leadership on efficiency technologies 

and to develop a cadre of professionals to work within the field. 

They also seek to protect consumers, manufacturers and the environment from unintended consequences of new or revised standards. 

I am pleased that we have witnesses here who can speak to these 

many bills as well as the impacts they will have on the government, not only the Federal Government, but our state governments, consumers, the economy and front line project implementers. 

It should be an interesting, pretty far-ranging discussion this 

morning, but I think it is, again, important that we consider how 

we can work to build an energy efficiency title that works for all. 

In the interest of efficiency and in light of the measures that we 

are going to be considering this morning, I will conclude my comments and turn to the Ranking Member for her comments this 

morning. Welcome to our fellow colleagues who have taken time 

out of their very busy mornings to come before the Committee, and 

we look forward to your comments as well. 

Senator Cantwell. 

STATEMENT OF HON. MARIA CANTWELL, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

WASHINGTON 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for 

holding this first of several legislative hearings on a process to 

move us forward on energy policy. Hopefully we will be building a 

record here for important steps in crafting legislation that we can 

successfully move through both the House and the Senate. 

I also want to thank our witnesses today. We are going to hear 

from several of our colleagues, and I certainly appreciate Senators 

Collins and Coons being here and for their leadership on a variety 

of issues related to energy efficiency and continued focus in this 

area. 

I know our colleague, Senator Klobuchar, is joining us as well. 

Yesterday she shared a round table discussion with many energy 

efficiency leaders, so we thank her for that as well. 

Today we are here to discuss energy efficiency which is, in some 

ways, the most obvious of energy sources. Why is that? Well, it is 

pretty simple. It is just the math. It is compelling economics. Energy efficiency costs less than half of what it costs for new energy 

production. The Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory has estimated the cost of energy efficiency is 4.5 cents per kilowatt compared to 12 cents per kilowatt for new production. 

In short, energy efficiency as a resource is larger, cheaper, a better job creator and carries lower environmental impacts than the 

alternatives. Not only does it save consumers, but it strengthens 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
3 

the economy, builds flexibility in our grid and reduces carbon pollution. 

Let me say just a few words about the economic benefits. From 

2007 to 2014 national energy use fell 2.4 percent while GDP grew 

eight percent. In other words, we experienced an energy productivity increase of 11 percent in eight years. That means for every 

electron or molecule of energy consumed in the U.S., we are getting 

more and more economic production. 

A handful of programs at the U.S. Department of Energy or DOE 

are important contributors to this dynamic. DOE’s Building Code 

program, for example, will help put more than $7.4 billion back 

into consumers’ pockets in 2020 and up to $230 billion by 2040. 

This program’s original cost was about $100 million from 1992 to 

2012. So, basically that is a ratio of $400 in savings for every dollar 

spent. I think that is a pretty impressive ROI. 

Similarly the Appliance and Equipment Standard programs cost 

the nation $40 million annually and on average has reduced our 

nation’s electricity consumption by seven percent below what it 

would otherwise have been. In a typical household, energy costs are 

about $500 a year less than they would have been if there had not 

been this National Appliance Efficiency Standard Program. 

So when we discuss these initiatives I think it is important for 

my colleagues to remember that it is often the case that successful 

Federal programs have been built on the hard work and leadership 

of a number of states. The drive towards energy efficiency, at the 

time policy makers called it conservation, really began with efforts 

on the West Coast. 

California’s energy efficiency efforts have helped the state avoid 

the need for at least 30 power plants, saved consumers $65 billion 

and eliminated carbon pollution equivalent to 5,000,000 cars off the 

road. 

The Northwest Power Planning Act, which originated in this 

Committee, was enacted in 1980 and made conservation the resource of first resort in our regional power plans and even gave rise 

to some of the nation’s first models of conservation code efforts. 

Today, some 24 states have laws on their books on energy efficiency resource standards—binding saving targets for utilities or 

similar activities. Once again, I think it is fair to say that the resources that cost consumers less, make our economy more competitive and reduce environmental impacts are always a good thing for 

our nation. 

So the question before us today is what more can be done to 

drive energy efficiency into our economy? 

The U.S. economy in the advent of the distributed generation, 

dozens of opportunities exist across residential, commercial, industrial and agriculture and government sectors. I think we should 

consider a number of approaches to fully leverage these opportunities. 

First, we need the right framework and incentives for utilities to 

fully embrace the least cost resource. Senator Franken’s legislation 

that we are going to hear about today, the Federal Energy Efficiency Resource Standard, is one method to drive this outcome. So 

I look forward to that topic today. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
4 

In my state, Seattle City Light used a variety of efficiency measures to reduce its load annually by 1.3 megawatts per year which 

is the equivalent of a 150 megawatt power plant. So we need to 

create similar conditions. 

Second, we need a robust Federal commitment to research and 

development of new technologies that will continue to lead the way 

on energy. Technology innovation is one of the key ways to create 

continuous cycles of efficiency, and one example of this is the opportunity of R and D on high performance buildings. 

We have major employers that are aggregating and analyzing 

business data on their corporate campuses in order to learn where 

costs can be cut and to help achieve a carbon reduction goal. I have 

introduced legislation to help accelerate this transition to smart 

buildings by supporting research on data, on software, and on communication systems. 

We also cannot forget the opportunities of efficiency in the transmission and distribution grid. On Tuesday Secretary Moniz was 

here to discuss on the Quadrennial Energy Review, and he outlined 

several recommendations to create more flexibility, more resilience 

and increase energy efficiency. 

Third, we must be committed to the network partnership between Federal, state and local institutions. Manufacturers, utilities, consumers and stakeholders, they all play a role in this. The 

issue is that we have to have Federal leadership with respect to 

things like the appliance standards and continue to lessen regulatory burdens and be a platform for demonstration. Most people 

will tell you that the demonstrations we show then enable the private sector to implement them across many different businesses. 

There is a lot to be done in driving these outcomes, but I look 

forward to working with Chairwoman Murkowski and members of 

this Committee, who all have great ideas on putting a good energy 

efficiency title in an energy bill. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Cantwell. 

Let’s start with our good ideas. 

We will hear from our colleagues who have taken time from their 

busy morning to come before the Committee to present some of the 

areas where they feel we can make some headway when it comes 

to efficiencies whether it is within our schools, through weatherization programs or the approach that Senators Portman and Shaheen 

have brought to the table, clearly leading on this area, a critically 

important area of energy efficiency throughout our economies. 

We will start this morning with you, Senator Collins, as you 

speak to your legislation about retrofitting our schools and the energy savings that we can find there. This was something that we 

considered during the budget process, and I think you enjoyed 

good, strong, bipartisan support. 

I believe Senator Coons was a co-sponsor of that as were many 

of us, so thank you for your leadership and if you would like to lead 

off this morning? Welcome. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
5 

STATEMENT OF HON. SUSAN M. COLLINS, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

MAINE 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman, 

Ranking Member Cantwell, members of this distinguished Committee. 

First let me commend you for holding this hearing this morning 

to examine so many legislative proposals having to do with the energy efficiency. I have always thought of energy efficiency as being 

the low hanging fruit when it comes to reducing energy costs and 

having other benefits such as both the Chairman and the Ranking 

Member outlined in your opening remarks. Encouraging the adoption of energy efficiency measures is one of the easiest, yet most 

effective mechanisms for reducing energy consumption, lessening 

pollution and ultimately saving families, businesses, communities 

and governments at all levels, money. 

I appreciate the opportunity to speak about a bill that I have 

sponsored, along with the distinguished Senator from Virginia, 

Senator Warner, to streamline the available Federal energy efficiency programs and financing to improve efficiency and lower energy costs for our nation’s schools. 

Before I describe our bill, Senate bill 523, in greater detail, I 

would like to very briefly note my strong support for two other bills 

that are on your agenda both of which I have co-sponsored and 

both of which happen to have the chief sponsors here today which 

was not planned in advance. 

The first is the Energy Savings and Industrial Competitiveness 

Act which is sponsored by Senators Portman and Shaheen which 

proposes cost effective mechanisms to support the adoption of off 

the shelf technology for buildings, manufacturers and the Federal 

Government. 

The second is the Weatherization Enhancement in Local Energy 

Efficiency Investment and Accountability Act sponsored by Senator 

Coons which would reauthorize and enhance two successful and 

long standing Federal energy programs, the Weatherization Assistance Program and the State Energy Program. 

I am proud to be a co-sponsor of both of these important initiatives. 

With regard to energy efficiency in schools there are a number 

of Federal initiatives already available to schools to help them become more efficient, but in many cases schools are not taking advantage of these programs. So I set out to find out why. 

Well, the answer is that we need to do a better job of helping 

school officials learn more easily about what Federal programs and 

incentives are available to improve energy efficiency and lower 

costs. By providing a streamlined coordinating structured led by 

the Department of Energy our bill would help schools navigate the 

available Federal programs and financing without authorizing new 

programs or funding. Decisions about how best to meet the energy 

needs of their schools would appropriately remain in the hands of 

states, school boards and local officials. 

Specifically our bill establishes the Department of Energy as the 

lead agency for coordinating and disseminating information on 

these programs. That is going to make a big difference, particularly 

to rural schools that do not have the grant writers, the staff, to go 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
6 

and survey the entire Federal Government until they stumble upon 

one of these programs. 

Our bill would require DOE to review the existing Federal programs which are scattered at the Departments of Agriculture, Energy, Education, Treasury, the IRS, EPA. No wonder schools are 

having difficulty in finding how whether these programs exist and 

how to access them. 

It would also streamline communication and outreach to the 

states, local education agencies and schools to help them facilitate 

partnerships to support the initiation of these projects. 

The Department would also provide technical assistance to help 

schools navigate project financing and development to better ensure their successful applications. 

Assisting our nation’s schools, many of which are very old and 

in need of energy efficiency upgrades, in tapping into existing Federal programs to lower energy usage and save money is just common sense. 

Finally let me note, I see this as the first step. As we have this 

coordinating structure we may well decide that some of these programs should be moved to a central agency. GAO has done a little 

bit of work on this, but I believe by establishing this coordinating 

mechanism that it will enable us to do a better job of helping 

schools access these programs. Thank you very much. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Collins. 

Senator KING. Madam Chair? 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator King. 

Senator KING. Unfortunately I have to return to a hearing on the 

Ukraine in the Armed Services Committee, but I wanted to commend to the Committee the principle that I followed since arriving 

here which is do what she says. [Laughter.] 

Senator COLLINS. Thank you, my thanks to the Senator from 

Maine. 

The CHAIRMAN. Wise words from the Junior Senator from Maine. 

We appreciate that, and we appreciate all of your interest in these 

issues, Senator King, and your involvement in the Committee. 

Senator Collins, thank you for not only being persistent in this 

area, but also reminding us that we do have considerable programs 

scattered throughout our agencies that are there to help, but so 

much of it is knowing how to access. 

I think Senator Coons, you know, very keenly, that when we are 

talking about the issue of weatherization, we have weatherization 

programs scattered all throughout. How we can better collate them 

so that we can access them and be more efficient than with what 

has already been established is key. So, we appreciate your leadership in this area and look forward to your comments on Senate bill 

703. 

Senator Collins, I am sure you have places to go, so if you want 

to excuse yourself we appreciate you coming by the Committee this 

morning. 

Senator Coons. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
7 

STATEMENT OF HON. CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, U.S. SENATOR 

FROM DELAWARE 

Senator COONS. Thank you, Chairman Murkowski and Ranking 

Member Cantwell for the opportunity to testify, and thank you for 

holding this hearing on a broad menu of legislation that focuses on 

utilizing energy efficiency to help households, businesses and taxpayers to save money on their energy needs. I am pleased to be in 

the company of two such experienced and effective and engaged advocates for energy efficiency as Senators Shaheen and Senator Collins. 

It is, after all, an area that can unite Democrats and Republicans. Encouraging the use of energy efficiency policies is just common sense. It saves money, enhances our national security, spurs 

innovation, creates jobs for local contractors, reduces waste and improves business opportunities. So I am glad to join the conversation 

today. 

There are a lot of great energy efficiency bills on your agenda. 

I would like to speak about four of them briefly, if I might. 

The first is a bipartisan bill that I introduced in the last Congress and have reintroduced in this Congress with Senators Collins, Reed of Rhode Island and Shaheen of New Hampshire. It is 

the Weatherization Enhancement and Local Energy Efficiency Investment and Accountability Act, otherwise known as S. 703. This 

bill reauthorizes two critical energy programs for five more years, 

the Weatherization Assistance Program and the State Energy Program. Both programs have been at work in all of our states for decades. These programs link national, state and local interests together in a critical way. They create highly effective public/private 

partnerships that have delivered measureable results. 

For every dollar invested the Weatherization Assistance Program 

returns $2.51 in household savings and has served 7.4 million families including more than a million in just the last four years. 

The results are similarly impressive for the State Energy Program where for every Federal dollar invested there is an annual 

energy cost savings of more than $7 and nearly $11 in non-Federal 

funds have been leveraged. Our bill is not just about reauthorization. It is also about modernization. First, we have cut the authorization levels by more than half from the 2007 Energy bill. Second, 

we are proposing a complementary, competitive grant program to 

bring in new partners, new approaches and new ideas to ensure 

that more homes can be weatherized and that the weatherization 

being done is being done more efficiently. All told S. 703 supports 

both base programs and enhances them with new ideas and ultimately ensures their long term viability so we can continue making 

a difference in our states and communities. 

Another key piece of the energy efficiency puzzle is ensuring the 

Federal Government better uses energy efficiency and cleaner energy. This can be done through the use of Energy Savings Performance Contracts or ESPCs, well known to many of this Committee. 

ESPCs provide valuable ways for public agencies to make investments in energy efficiency at no cost to the taxpayer. 

I have been working with a steadfast advocate of ESPCs, Senator 

Cory Gardner of Colorado, to advance the energy savings through 

Public/Private Partnerships Act. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
8 

As a related issue, as many of you know, we also need to fix 

CBO’s scoring treatment of ESPCs and several of us here today 

have been working to fix that scoring hurdle through this year’s 

budget. If successful, this bill, along with other policy ideas, can be 

advanced without running into that artificial hurdle to bring about 

many benefits for Federal facilities and programs. It is through efforts like ESPCs that we can put more American electricians and 

plumbers and local building contractors to work. 

Now the bill that has really been one of the most significant 

pieces of energy efficiency legislation offered in Congress in many 

years is one with which we are all familiar and to which Senator 

Shaheen will speak momentarily, S. 720, the Energy Savings and 

Industrial Competiveness Act. I am proud to have been a co-sponsor. Senators Portman and Shaheen have diligently worked to get 

several of their provisions recently passed into law, but it is critical 

we continue to pass, press for passage, of the entire bill. 

Senator Gardner, I was just speaking about our ESPC bill a moment ago. 

Last, while energy efficiency is one crucial part of our larger energy challenge, I would briefly like to mention a bill related to the 

bigger energy picture. The Administration, as you well know, just 

released its Quadrennial Energy Review report which provides a 

valuable snapshot of our energy infrastructure needs. I’m glad this 

Committee held a hearing on the QER just last Tuesday and we 

should ensure that this and future Administrations continue to 

carry out such reviews to inform the national energy discussion. 

That is why I recently introduced S. 1033 with Senator Alexander 

to ensure that QERs become codified into law so that each successive Administration follows through on this important audit of our 

nation’s energy policies and needs. 

Madam Chair, Ranking Member, members of the Committee, I 

would just like to thank you for your leadership and your attention 

to the important opportunity that energy efficiency holds for our 

country. I am glad energy efficiency continues to be an important, 

valuable and bipartisan issue that owes, in no small part, to your 

leadership and the collective efforts of many colleagues present 

today. 

Our energy challenges may be great, but I fervently believe we 

can meet them by working together on sound, common sense policies such as the bills discussed today. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Coons. Know that we look 

forward to working with you, not only on the weatherization enhancement but also the other measures that you are clearly engaged on. You have been a cooperative, willing and engaging partner, and we look forward to continuing that. 

Next let’s go to Senator Shaheen for your comments on the Energy Savings and Industrial Competitiveness Act, an act that you 

and Senator Portman have led for years now. As has been noted, 

there have been incremental pieces that we have advanced through 

the process. I think it is fair to say that when we had these initial 

discussions about how you move forward on Shaheen/Portman we 

all thought that we were going to be pursuing the low hanging 

fruit. We all thought that this was going to be the easy energy bill 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
9 

that we move forward. Unfortunately, due to a host of varying and 

complicating factors, that did not prove to be so, but I still believe, 

very strongly, that this should be that area where regardless of 

where you’re coming from on fossil verses renewables verses how 

we build out our capacity that when it comes to energy efficiency 

we ought to be able to figure out a positive and a constructive path 

forward. 

I thank you both for your diligence and your continued efforts to 

remind us of the opportunities that we have within efficiency. I 

look to you, truly, as the leaders. 

Senator Shaheen, we will lead off with you and then I would like 

to turn to you, Senator Portman, for your comments on your legislation after which we will move down the line to listen to the other 

measures that we have in front of us. 

Senator Shaheen. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JEANNE SHAHEEN, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

NEW HAMPSHIRE 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you, Madam Chair and thank you and 

Ranking Member Cantwell for holding this hearing this morning, 

to the members of the Committee for all of the great work that’s 

going on. I am very excited that you are talking about a comprehensive energy bill that is going to start with energy efficiency 

because it is, as you both said so eloquently, the cheapest, fastest 

way to deal with our energy needs. 

I want to just salute my partner in this effort to pass the Energy 

Efficiency and Industrial Competitiveness Act, Rob Portman. He 

actually had dark hair when we started on this initiative. [Laughter.] 

We are both getting older while this is going on. This is legislation that I sometimes call Shaheen/Portman. He calls it Portman/ 

Shaheen. [Laughter.] 

But whatever you want to call it, it is a big step toward a smart, 

energy policy for this country. And I just want to thank Senator 

Portman for his very productive partnership in this effort. 

As you pointed out, Madam Chair, earlier this year with the 

Committee’s assistance and I want to recognize Senator Hoeven, 

Senator Klobuchar, and Senator Franken for their effort to help us 

pass a targeted version, a mini version of energy efficiency that included three provisions that passed by a voice vote. The House followed suit last week, and the President is going to sign it into law. 

It will be the first energy bill that has passed Congress this year. 

So I think, hopefully, that bodes well for the opportunity to do 

more in energy efficiency. 

I do not want to spend a lot of time talking about the legislation 

that Senators Coons, Schatz and Collins are all here also to address, but I just have to say I think there are some terrific ideas. 

I am proud to co-sponsor a number of those. 

I do want to highlight, as Senator Coons did, the bill that he and 

Senator Gardner are working on because I think there is tremendous opportunity for us in the Federal Government to save money 

through energy savings performance contracts. They are no 

brainers, I think, as we look at how we can save money. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
10 

And as, again, everyone has said so eloquently, energy efficiency 

is something that we can all get behind. This brings us together 

on a bipartisan, bicameral basis. 

Now, since the early 70s we have, through efficiency, saved about 

or reduced our energy use in this country by about 60 percent. I 

think it shows what could be done if we can pass Portman/Shaheen 

in this session of Congress. 

By 2030 if we pass the legislation the bill would create almost 

200,000 jobs, cut carbon emissions by the equivalent of taking 

22,000,000 cars off the road and save consumers over $16 billion 

a year. So this is a win/win/win. 

As the Chair alluded we introduced this bill first in the 112th 

Congress, then the 113th Congress. So I’m hoping the third time 

is a charm. It has tremendous support from all sectors, people who 

do not usually all support the same bill, environmental groups, 

business groups from the U.S. Chamber to the American Chemistry 

Council, to labor organizations because it creates jobs, it reduces 

costs to consumers and it is good for saving on pollution. 

So, Madam Chair, as the Committee is thinking about moving 

this comprehensive energy bill, I hope you will think about the opportunity to mark up and move separately the Energy Savings and 

Industrial Competitiveness Act because it has already been vetted, 

because this Committee has had a chance to look at it in the last 

two Congresses. I’m hoping that you will agree with me that it deserves a separate examination that is outside of the comprehensive 

energy legislation and then if the Committee feels that you need 

to put it back in, I certainly understand that. But I hope that given 

all of the work that has been done that you might be willing to consider this as a separate bill outside of the efficiency title in the legislation. 

So, again, I thank you for the opportunity to be here, and I look 

forward to seeing the great work that’s going to come out of this 

Committee on a comprehensive energy bill, including efficiency. 

Thanks. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Shaheen, and know how 

carefully we are reviewing all of this. I think it is worth noting the 

three of you at the table here this morning are all former members 

of this Committee and have all contributed significantly in the area 

of energy. So it is nice to know that you have not lost that interest 

just because you moved on out of this Committee room. I would 

like to ask—— 

Senator CANTWELL. Madam Chair, if I could just add to that 

point. 

It is certainly a loss when we lose members from this Committee, 

but the fact that so many of them go on to the Appropriations Committee we will make sure we are keeping in contact with them 

[Laughter] as it comes to the funding of various energy programs. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Duly noted. 

Senator Portman, as truly a leader for years in this area and 

continuing to be so, I would like to invite your comments on the 

Energy Savings and Industrial Competitiveness Act. It is hard for 

me to say that because we just referred to it as Shaheen/Portman 

or Portman/Shaheen and recognize you and your leadership with it. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
11 

STATEMENT OF HON. ROB PORTMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

OHIO 

Senator PORTMAN. Great. 

Well, thank you and thanks Madam Chair, not just for your willingness to hold this hearing today and this is going to be a good 

opportunity for us to hear about a lot of great ideas in energy efficiency, but importantly to me, your personal commitment to this 

representing a state that produces a lot of energy your motto has 

been let’s produce more but let’s also use what we produce more 

efficiently. 

I think that is exactly where most Americans are. And what we 

can and should do, there is so much potential for us to become 

more competitive, to help the environment and create more jobs by 

doing so. 

Second, thank you for your support of this legislation. From the 

start you were one of our original co-sponsors. You have been working with us. It has been on the Floor twice, as you know, and for 

really unrelated reasons was not able to get it through. We have 

continued to improve the legislation. 

I think about, listening to my colleague, Senator Shaheen, talk 

about it, we added, I think, ten additional bipartisan provisions the 

last go round in the last Congress which not only got us more cosponsors, but a lot more support from the outside. And we continue 

to refine the measure. We have now reintroduced it, I think, with 

a good, broad, bipartisan support of members but again, importantly taking in great ideas. One, by the way, we would love to include is ESPCs. And the problem with ESPCs in the past has been 

we have not been able to get a score that really is consistent with 

the reality of the savings that can occur from these contracts. 

And I am on the Budget Committee. As the Ranking Member 

was saying, it is good to have members on other Committees, and 

we were able to get in language in the budget to have CBO properly, I would view, score these. 

So this helps us in terms of our costs because as you know 

Portman/Shaheen, Shaheen/Portman, we will call it S. 720, does 

not have a cost. We eliminate some authorizations at the Department of Energy. We have no mandates in it. I mean, we have been 

very careful to keep this group together by not having this be a fiscal problem. With this new ESPC language we will be able to include, I believe, some additional elements there. 

By the way, it only applies to the Senate not the House which 

could make matters interesting going forward in terms of the ESPC 

scoring mechanism, but I am glad we had that little victory and I 

appreciate Senator Coons coming today and talking about that. 

Also, Senator Collins talked about the coordination of retrofitting 

schools, great idea. 

I am a co-sponsor of Senator Coons’ bill but also a co-sponsor of 

her bill. Her bill is part of the Portman/Shaheen bill, and we think 

that is one of the great opportunities here with regard to the building side and specifically our school buildings. 

We are really interested in moving this bill forward, getting it to 

the Floor, this time. The third time is a charm having the ability 

to have a substantive discussion and to allow people to offer 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
12 

amendments, but also to allow us to actually get something done 

that we think can be, not just bipartisan, but bicameral. 

Cory Gardner, who just left the House, is here, and he was one 

of our leaders in the House. Hopefully he left some folks behind 

who understand the importance of this legislation, but we do have 

support on both sides of the aisle in the House. 

I just want to thank Senator Shaheen. We have worked on this 

for three and a half, maybe four years now. As she said, I had dark 

hair when this started. [Laughter.] Senator Gardner says that my 

hair is lighter because it reflects the sun better which is more energy efficient. [Laughter.] But that was not purposeful. 

Senator Shaheen has been a stalwart. Frankly, both of us have 

had to work with both of our caucuses on moving this forward because it is a consensus bill. Again, it is a bill that can actually, in 

my view, get through to the President for his signature. 

We really appreciate your willingness, Madam Chair, to push 

that through. I know that you have a personal commitment to this, 

but you are also willing to recognize three and a half years of hard 

work and over 270 organizations and trade associations and the 

fact that this would make a big difference to the equivalent of energy savings that would take 80,000,000 homes off the grid by 

2030, cumulative savings, about $100 billion, 190,000 jobs created. 

It does a lot of good things. Reducing emissions, cutting carbon 

emissions equivalent to taking 22,000,000 homes or 22,000,000 cars 

off the road by 2030. It is cost effective, and it adds jobs in places 

like my home state of Ohio. The manufacturers are really excited 

about it. 

We hope this is proof that bipartisanship is not dead on Capitol 

Hill because it passed the Committee last Congress with a strong 

bipartisan vote of 19 to 3, and I am hopeful we can do that again 

this year, get this moving quickly, get that strong show of support 

in the Committee which will help us to get it through the Floor and 

make this good idea a reality. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. This is all about taking good ideas and turning 

them into law. It is a good thing. 

Senator Schatz, you have been very engaged in several different 

initiatives. This morning you are going to speak to us about the 

Utility Energy Services Contract Improvement Act as well as the 

PREPARE Act, Promoting Regional Energy Partnerships for Advancing Resilient Energy Systems Act. 

Again, we appreciate your leadership here on the Committee and 

know that you are taking that interest to the other Committees you 

currently serve on. So, welcome back and we are looking forward 

to hear your comments this morning. 

STATEMENT OF HON. BRIAN SCHATZ, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

HAWAII 

Senator SCHATZ. Thank you. Good morning, Chair Murkowski, 

members of the Committee, I miss you. [Laughter.] 

I want to thank you for the chance to address the Committee and 

thank you for undertaking this effort to assemble comprehensive 

energy legislation in a bipartisan manner. I am especially grateful 

that you are beginning this effort with a look at energy efficiency 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
13 

which we all know is the least expensive, most effective way to reduce energy costs. 

I am going to take some time to talk about two bills I have introduced that focus on energy efficiency and grid modernization. 

The first bill, S. 723, the Utility Energy Service Contracts Improvement Act of 2015, provides parity between two types of energy 

savings contracts with Federal agencies. Co-sponsored by Senators 

Alexander, Coats and Coons, it is endorsed by the Edison Electric 

Institute and the Bristol Bay Native Corporation which has a subsidiary that does a significant amount of work with UESCs. 

UESCs are similar to ESPCs. Both are financing vehicles that 

allow Federal agencies to invest in efficiency improvements and energy conservation measures to reduce energy use and save money. 

The primary difference is that UESCs allow the client to work directly with the utility, an existing relationship, while ESPCs are offered by energy service companies, ESCOs. 

Under the current law Federal agencies can enter into energy 

savings performance contracts for up to 25 years; however, Congress does not specify guidelines for UESCs leaving the contract 

terms up to interpretation. Several agency interpretations have 

limited UESCs to only ten years and this has resulted in lost opportunity and significant underutilization and a potential loss of 

energy and financial savings to the Federal Government. 

Our bipartisan bill does one simple thing. It clarifies that Federal agencies may enter into UESCs of up to 25 years just like 

ESPCs provided that the energy savings are measured and guaranteed. It is a simple, common sense bill. 

My second bill on the agenda is S. 888, promoting Regional Energy Partnerships for Advancing Resilient Energy Systems Act, the 

PREPARE Act. The PREPARE Act is co-sponsored by Senator 

Heinrich and has the endorsement of the National Association of 

State Energy Offices. 

U.S. energy systems and infrastructure are currently in a period 

of significant change. The majority of energy assets are ready for 

retirement or replacement. Decisions made today will have lasting 

impacts over the next 40 to 50 years, and I know Chair Murkowski 

knows that as important as national policy is, it is often times public utilities commissions, local utilities, local energy companies, 

that make the driving difference in terms of our energy future. 

The PREPARE Act recognizes this reality and leverages the DOE 

and the national labs to provide direct financial and technical assistance to states and regions that want to strengthen and streamline their energy systems. The bill directs DOE to act as a sort of 

consultant to the states, working with key stakeholders to ensure 

that planning efforts have the necessary resources and focus. 

The PREPARE Act draws on the experience of two successful energy partnership programs. One is the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative initiated by Republican Governor Lingle and President Bush 

in 2008. It is underpinned by an agreement between DOE and the 

Hawaii State Energy Office. The second is the DOE State Energy 

Program which provides funding and technical assistance to state 

energy offices to prepare state energy plans and implement energy 

efficiency programs. Since its creation in ’96 it has delivered energy 

cost savings of over $250 million a year, and this legislation is agVerDate Sep 11 2014 23:01 Feb 09, 2016 Jkt 095273 PO 00000 Frm 00021 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A273.XXX A273

asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
14 

nostic on the direction that individual states and regions should 

take with respect to their energy futures. It simply directs the DOE 

to utilize its resources to assist in a planning process so that we 

modernize our grid and that we have the most efficient and effective energy systems that work for our individual states. It creates 

a voluntary program and recognizes the need for long term, holistic 

planning. 

I want to thank Chair Murkowski for assembling such a good, bipartisan group and for considering this and other excellent pieces 

of legislation. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Schatz. 

You know, as I listened to your comments and that of the other 

members that we have heard so much of this, yes, it is about efficiency. It is also about us doing a good job of understanding what 

is out there within our agencies, how we can be more efficient from 

just an oversight perspective. Knowing what we have and utilizing 

it to its best advantage. 

This kind of ties in with what our fourth title in this energy, 

overall, energy legislation will be which is accountability, making 

sure that what we have in place actually makes sense. What you 

have laid out in front of us today is good stuff, and we will look 

forward to working with you as well. 

Senator SCHATZ. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you for coming back to the Committee. 

And now, let’s go up north a little bit to Minnesota. Our colleague, Senator Klobuchar, is here to talk about energy efficiency 

retrofits and how we can best utilize them to gain efficiencies. 

Welcome to the Committee, Senator Klobuchar. 

STATEMENT OF HON. AMY KLOBUCHAR, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

MINNESOTA 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. Well, thank you so much, Madam Chair 

and thank you to Ranking Member Cantwell and all the members. 

I was sitting here hearing about how everyone used to serve on 

this Committee. I did not, but I have friends and neighbors on the 

Committee including my colleague, Senator Franken, and then 

also, of course, my neighbor, Senator Hoeven, who has been the 

lead Republican on this bill. 

The two of us were also excited to be part of the Shaheen/ 

Portman Energy Efficiency bill that passed at the end with our 

water heater provision that was supported by a lot of the energy 

groups on energy efficiency, environmental groups as well as the 

rural electrics. We were really glad that is being signed into law 

today as part of that package. 

I want to thank Senator Stabenow, our Ranking Member on Agriculture, as well as Senator Risch for co-sponsoring this bill. I 

know they are both members of this Committee as well as Senator 

Blunt and Senator Schatz. 

The Non-Profit Energy Efficiency Act provides assistance to nonprofit organizations to help them make their buildings more energy 

efficient. I think we all know that these organizations are the heart 

of our country. They are places like schools and hospitals, faithbased organizations, youth centers, nonprofit entities, just the kind 

of entities that would be interested in having their buildings be 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
15 

more energy efficient. We all know it will help them save money 

as they help other people. 

They also tend to be located in older buildings, thus many of 

these nonprofits are faced with a difficult choice regarding investments in energy efficiency. They are often the first to forego energy 

efficiency measures that would save money for them in the long 

haul because of their costly, up front, capital investments which divert their scarce resources away from the services they are trying 

to provide. They really are perfect for these kinds of grant programs, and because of their tax exempt status nonprofits are currently unable to utilize the existing tax credit or rebate programs 

even though they would benefit from them. 

So what our bill does is it establishes a pilot program at the U.S. 

Department of Energy. Grants can be used for up to $200,000 per 

building. The costs of it are offset by other Department of Energy 

grants and would be subject to a 50 percent local match requirement. 

The bill includes provisions to ensure that the projects achieve 

significant amounts of energy savings and are completed in a cost 

effective way. 

It is also important to note that the bill would not score and that 

the funds, again, are a carve out of existing resources that are used 

for commercial buildings yet we have all these older buildings that 

the nonprofits have been using where they have not been able to 

retrofit them. 

The legislation is supported by a broad coalition of organizations 

including the National Council of Churches, as well as the Union 

of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, the Interfaith Power 

and Light, YMCA and there are a number of other faith-based organizations that are big supporters of this. 

The bill has a bipartisan House companion. It is being introduced 

today by Representative Cartwright, a Democrat from Pennsylvania, and Representative Dold, a Republican from Illinois, and I 

think this is an area that has long been overlooked, the ability of 

nonprofits to utilize tax credits to retrofit. 

I want to thank this Committee for the bipartisan work that 

you’ve done in this area. I think it is actually a very exciting area 

for us to move on. We did a few weeks ago, but also to move even 

further with some of the bills that are out there, including Senator 

Portman, Senator Shaheen, the other one discussed today and all 

the work of the Committee members. 

Thank you very much. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Klobuchar, thank you. We all want to 

make sure that our nonprofits have what they need, particularly in 

times of tough budgets both at the Federal and state levels and the 

ways that you can save money is with efficiency, with your energy, 

so working with you on this is something that we look forward to 

doing. 

Senator HOEVEN. Madam Chairman, if I may? 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Hoeven, yes. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
16 

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN HOEVEN, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

NORTH DAKOTA 

Senator HOEVEN. I just want to express my thanks to the good 

Senator from Minnesota for sponsoring this bill. I am very pleased 

to co-sponsor it with her, and of course, the good Senator from 

Michigan and others who are on this legislation. 

It is bipartisan, and I think it is something that would be very 

helpful. We have heard a lot from the nonprofit groups that this 

is something they would use. This is one of those programs that 

they say, this is what we want. We will use it. 

That is important because sometimes we pass legislation, it sets 

up programs and they are not used. But this is one that, I think, 

will be very much in demand. 

I just want to read some of the organizations. Senator Klobuchar 

mentioned just a couple, but if I could mention a few more. I think 

she mentioned the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of 

America, but we also have the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, 

the Association of Art Museum Directors, the Evangelical Lutheran 

Church in America, the General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists, Friends of Committee on National Legislation, Jewish 

Federation. 

Particularly nonprofit religious groups, have really lined up and 

said this is something, you know, for our church, our temples, 

whatever it is. This is something that can make a big difference for 

us. 

It is not a huge amount when we say up to $200,000. Of course, 

they will have to put in matching dollars, but it is one that really, 

I think, would have a big impact and would be used. 

And so, again, I want to thank and commend Senator Klobuchar 

and ask the Committee for their support on this legislation. 

Senator FRANKEN. Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Hoeven. It is important and 

something that we would like to include. 

I know that members have a great deal of interest in so many 

of these bills. I want to give us all a chance to either speak to either Senator Klobuchar and Hoeven’s bill or others, but I also recognize that we do have a second panel that we want to get to. 

Senator FRANKEN. Sure. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Franken. 

Senator FRANKEN. I just wanted to clarify when he says the good 

Senator from Minnesota that he was not saying in contrast. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. No, it is not like the Good Witch and the 

Bad Witch. 

Senator FRANKEN. Yeah. Okay, okay. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. We, no, no, not our friend from North Dakota, no. 

Senator FRANKEN. That was it. That was all. 

Senator KLOBUCHAR Alright. 

The CHAIRMAN. Okay. 

I thought you were going to share something really erudite on 

this great, great legislation. [Laughter.] 

Senator KLOBUCHAR. He can call me Glinda. 

Senator FRANKEN. What would the chances of that be? [Laughter.] 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
17 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, all I was thinking was that every church 

that I go into is always cold. So I know they are saving energy. 

[Laughter.] But we warm it up. 

Again, to the members of the Committee, I know that each of us 

have many pieces of good legislation that are, perhaps, part of the 

22 bills that we are considering today. If you would care to make 

brief comments now before the Committee or submit something for 

the record, we are certainly happy to allow for that. 

Senator Gardner. 

STATEMENT OF HON. CORY GARDNER, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

COLORADO 

Senator GARDNER. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for 

this hearing today. I think we are doing some great work, and obviously Senator Coons mentioned some of the work that we are doing 

together. I commend him for his leadership when I was in the 

House and now in the Senate together on Energy Savings Performance Contracts. 

The Federal Government is the largest office holder in the country, somewhere around two billion square feet of office space. We 

have got $20 billion worth of potential opportunities when it comes 

to savings from energy savings performance contracts, reducing 

emissions, creating thousands of private sector jobs, saving the taxpayer money. This is that win/win/win/ trifecta that we do not often 

get to talk about. 

So, again, thank you for your opportunity today. Senate bill 858, 

we are still looking for co-sponsors. Anybody can join this. We are 

excited to work on energy savings performance contracts, U.S. goes 

to the utility side as well as we continue the good work that we 

are pursuing right now on energy efficiency and savings. 

The CHAIRMAN. Fabulous, we look forward to that. 

I still think we can deal with the air conditioning here in this 

building and save a lot of money. That is going to be my next pitch. 

Senator Stabenow. 

STATEMENT OF HON. DEBBIE STABENOW, U.S. SENATOR 

FROM MICHIGAN 

Senator STABENOW. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

And on the Floor there. 

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. 

Senator STABENOW. It gets a little free. 

I just want to say thank you for holding the hearing, and we look 

forward to our second panel. 

But you know, for years we have talked about vehicle efficiencies 

which are critical in terms of mileage efficiencies and so on. It is 

so important I think to stress that about 30 percent of our energy 

use is in transportation, very, very important. We have made great 

headway there. 

But 40 percent is in buildings. And so when we talk about this 

and the fact is, as has been said before, at least 22,000,000 vehicles 

could be taken off the road by 2030 if we, the equivalent of that, 

in terms of energy efficiency in buildings. I want those vehicles actually on the road, purchased vehicles in Michigan. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
18 

But when you look at the capacity to save energy and reduce carbon from addressing these issues, I really hope this will be at the 

top of our list. I think it is really important. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Stabenow. 

Thank you Senator Klobuchar for joining us this morning before 

the Committee. 

Let’s now go to our second panel and hear from them this morning on these various measures that are before the Committee. 

At this time I would ask Dr. Kathleen Hogan to join us. 

Dr. Hogan is the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency at the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy at 

DOE. Next to her we have Mr. Tony Crasi, who is here on behalf 

of the National Association of Home Builders, and he is the owner 

of the Crasi Company Incorporated. We also have Dr. Ted Gayer 

with us. Mr. Gayer is the Vice President and Director of Economic 

Studies at the Brookings Institute. So welcome to you this morning. We have Mr. Steven Nadel, who is the Executive Director for 

the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy. He has 

been before the Committee before. Welcome back. And we have a 

friend of mine and fellow Alaskan, Mr. Gene Therriault, who is 

with us, who is the Vice Chairman of the National Association of 

State Energy Officials as well as the Deputy Director of the Energy 

Policy and Outreach for the Alaska Energy Authority. He has come 

a long way to be with us, but his insight on not only those Alaska 

related issues, but national issues is greatly appreciated and respected. So, welcome to the Committee this morning. 

We will begin with you, Dr. Hogan. If you would give us five 

minutes or less, know that your full statement will be included as 

part of the record, but we look forward to your comments this 

morning. 

STATEMENT OF DR. KATHLEEN B. HOGAN, DEPUTY ASSISTANT 

SECRETARY FOR ENERGY EFFICIENCY, OFFICE OF ENERGY 

EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY, U.S. DEPARTMENT 

OF ENERGY 

Dr. HOGAN. Thank you and good morning, Madam Chairman 

Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell and members of the Committee. And thank you for the opportunity to testify today on behalf 

of the Department of Energy’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, also known as EERE. 

As the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency at 

EERE, I oversee DOE’s portfolio of energy efficiency activities, 

building technologies, advanced manufacturing, weatherization and 

intergovernmental programs and Federal energy management program offices, develop and help businesses, consumers and government agencies with innovative, cost effective, energy saving solutions to improve their energy efficiency. And this ranges from higher efficiency products to new ways of designing homes and buildings to new ways of improving the energy intensity and competitiveness of American manufacturers. 

We have all spoken to energy efficiency, being a large, low cost 

and underutilized U.S. energy resource. Increased energy efficiency 

offers savings on energy bills, opportunities for more jobs, improved 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
19 

industrial competitiveness and lower air pollution. And I am very 

pleased to be here today and look forward to working with Congress and this Committee in particular to talk about how we can 

expand the use of energy efficiency to help address our nation’s energy challenges. 

I’ve been asked to testify on 22 energy efficiency bills currently 

before the Committee. While the Administration is still reviewing 

these bills we certainly do want to express our support for the ongoing bipartisan efforts to promote energy efficiency. And we do 

look forward to continuing to work with the Committee with the 

range of bill sponsors. 

So the Administration does continue its support for the underlying goals of S. 720, the Energy Savings and Industrial Competitiveness Act of 2015 as many of the sections of S. 720 match those 

in a similar bill the Administration supported in 2013. Many of the 

provisions of S. 720 would support Administration’s efforts to 

strengthen U.S. competitiveness through significant research and 

development investments in manufacturing, innovation and productivity such as the Department of Energy’s Clean Energy Manufacturing Initiative. And it would complement other Administration 

energy efficiency initiatives for our homes, buildings, and industries. 

The Department continues to review the changes in S. 720 and 

again, looks forward to working with the bill’s sponsors and this 

Committee to cut energy waste, save money and reduce pollution. 

The additional bills on the docket today address many important 

aspects of energy efficiency today including but not limited to, the 

Federal use of energy savings performance contracts, utility energy 

savings contracts and Federal energy efficiency efforts more broadly, all of which contribute to reducing the energy intensity of Federal facilities, lowering bills and providing environmental benefits. 

They also address energy efficiency for commercial and residential buildings which, as we’ve heard, consume more than 40 percent 

of the nation’s total energy and actually more than 73 percent of 

its electrical energy and of course, continue to represent significant 

opportunities for energy and cost savings. 

The bills address appliance efficiency standards which are currently saving consumers more than $50 billion annually, and we 

know that there are opportunities for additional savings there. 

They address reauthorization of the critical Weatherization Assistance Program and state energy program which help low income 

households benefit from cost savings as among other benefits, and 

they assist states in establishing and implementing programs to reduce energy costs, enhance economic competiveness and improve 

the environment. 

And they look for opportunities, new opportunities, for energy efficiency activities at the local and municipal levels which is also 

something the Administration seeks to address in our budget request through something called the Local Energy Program. 

So EERE’s program offices are implementing a variety of strategies to improve the efficiency of our homes, buildings and manufacturers similar to the activities highlighted in the legislation before 

the Committee today. And expanding R and D to breaking down 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
20 

persistent market barriers that I think we all recognize limit the 

use of cost effective measures. 

And I am proud to report that we are making great progress on 

energy efficiency, reducing reliance on oil and saving American 

families and businesses money and reducing pollution. I have many 

more examples in my written testimony, but I think we can all 

agree that there is much more that can be done. 

So let me just reiterate my appreciation for the ongoing bipartisan efforts and our continuing interest to work with the Committee on the range of bills and the sponsors of them as this legislation continues to work its way through Congress. 

I am happy to answer any questions today. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Hogan follows:] 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
21 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 01 here 95273A.321
22 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 02 here 95273A.322
23 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 03 here 95273A.323
24 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 04 here 95273A.324
25 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 05 here 95273A.325
26 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 06 here 95273A.326
27 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 07 here 95273A.327
28 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 08 here 95273A.328
29 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 09 here 95273A.329
30 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 010 here 95273A.330
31 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 011 here 95273A.331
32 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 012 here 95273A.332
33 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 013 here 95273A.333
34 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Dr. Hogan. Know that we will be 

turning to you and your team as we work through the issues, not 

only on these 22 different bills, but other matters in the efficiency 

realm. We look forward to working with you. 

Let’s next go to Mr. Tony Crasi. Welcome to the Committee. 

Good morning. 

STATEMENT OF TONY CRASI, ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL 

ASSOCIATION OF HOME BUILDERS, AND OWNER AND 

FOUNDER, THE CRASI COMPANY, INC. 

Mr. CRASI. Thank you. 

Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell and members 

of the Committee, I am pleased to appear before you today on behalf of the 140,000 members of the National Association of Home 

Builders and to share our views on the Energy Savings and Industrial Competiveness Act of 2015, S. 720. 

My name is Tony Crasi. I am the founder and owner of Crasi 

Company, and I have been designing and building custom homes 

in the Akron, Ohio area for the past 31 years. 

I also serve on the board of the Urban Neighborhood Development Corporation, a nonprofit organization which seeks to improve 

the availability of new homes for moderate and middle income families in urban areas. 

As a long time leader in a drive to make new and existing homes 

more energy efficient while prioritizing housing affordability, 

NAHB is uniquely positioned to analyze the impact of legislation 

on the home building, remodeling and rental housing industries. 

NAHB supports many of the goals of the Energy Savings and Industrial Competitiveness Act of 2015 and seeks to ensure that it 

encourages meaningful energy savings for residential construction 

and that are achievable and cost effective. To that end, NAHB has 

four specific recommendations for S. 720 or any comprehensive energy package. 

First, the Department of Energy can be an effective participant 

in the development of modern building energy codes which established the minimum standards for energy efficiency by providing 

technical assistance such as needed building science, research and 

energy modeling and analysis. 

NAHB is concerned that DOE has crossed the line into advocacy. 

S. 720 improves this process by setting home—setting some of the 

guidelines by which DOE operates in this context and requiring 

DOE to publish energy saving targets and supporting analysis in 

the Federal Register. This will go a long way towards increasing 

transparency and ensuring that the public is heard. 

NAHB believes that traditional safeguards are necessary to prevent DOE from advocating for specific products or technologies. 

Next consumers deserve a reasonable return on their investment 

when it comes to required energy efficiency improvements. The 

2012 residential code added thousands of dollars in construction 

costs. For every one thousand dollars increase in price of a home, 

246,000 households will be priced out of a mortgage. Failure to consider the true economic cost of energy use reductions and establish 

a reasonable feedback period for these investments will result in 

fewer families being able to achieve the American Dream. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
35 

S. 720 improves the cost effectiveness of this code by requiring 

DOE to take into account economic considerations. NAHB specifically supports energy codes that have a ten year payback or less. 

Incentive programs such as the SAVE Act encourage homeowners 

to invest in energy efficiency and should be included in any final 

energy package. 

Originally introduced by Senators Isakson and Bennet, this is a 

voluntary program that will improve the accuracy of mortgage underwriting and appraisals by ensuring that they reflect the savings 

and operating costs in green homes. 

Finally, NAHB would like to see S. 1029 which addresses a 

flawed DOE rule on non-weatherized gas furnaces included in any 

final legislation. This legislation introduced by Senators Hoeven 

and Alexander would require DOE to convene a representative advisory group of interested stakeholders to help analyze the impacts 

of the proposed rule and determine whether it is technically feasible and economically justified and if not, participate in a negotiated rulemaking. 

This legislation is needed because the rule would eliminate the 

availability of non-condensing furnaces. Replacing these with condensing furnaces would require remodeling to reroute the exhaust 

system costing hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. This may be 

impossible in some multifamily structures. 

Additionally, DOE used a national nationwide cost benefit analysis to justify this rule which neglects a significantly lower energy 

savings that would be achieved in the south. 

NAHB would like to thank Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell and specifically, Senator Portman and Shaheen, for 

being welcomed as a key stakeholder in the energy efficiency policy 

discussions for the opportunity to continue to work on this important legislation. 

Thank you, and I would invite any questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Crasi follows:] 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
36 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 014 here 95273A.334
37 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 015 here 95273A.335
38 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 016 here 95273A.336
39 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 017 here 95273A.337
40 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 018 here 95273A.338
41 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 019 here 95273A.339
42 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 020 here 95273A.340
43 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 021 here 95273A.341
44 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 022 here 95273A.342
45 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 023 here 95273A.343
46 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 024 here 95273A.344
47 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 025 here 95273A.345
48 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 026 here 95273A.346
49 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 027 here 95273A.347
50 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 028 here 95273A.348
51 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 029 here 95273A.349
52 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 030 here 95273A.350
53 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 031 here 95273A.351
54 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 032 here 95273A.352
55 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 033 here 95273A.353
56 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 034 here 95273A.354
57 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 035 here 95273A.355
58 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 036 here 95273A.356
59 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 037 here 95273A.357
60 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 038 here 95273A.358
61 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 039 here 95273A.359
62 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 040 here 95273A.360
63 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 041 here 95273A.361
64 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 042 here 95273A.362
65 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 043 here 95273A.363
66 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 044 here 95273A.364
67 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 045 here 95273A.365
68 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 046 here 95273A.366
69 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 047 here 95273A.367
70 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 048 here 95273A.368
71 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 049 here 95273A.369
72 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 050 here 95273A.370
73 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Crasi, and thank you for your 

very specific suggestions here this morning. 

Let’s go to Dr. Ted Gayer. Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF DR. TED GAYER, VICE PRESIDENT AND DIRECTOR OF ECONOMIC STUDIES, JOSEPH A. PECHMAN SENIOR 

FELLOW, THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION 

Dr. GAYER. Thank you and good morning, Chairman Murkowski, 

Senator Cantwell and members of the Committee. I very much appreciate the opportunity to be here today to discuss energy efficiency legislation. 

Many of the points I make come from articles I’ve co-authored 

with Kip Viscusi of Vanderbilt University, who couldn’t be here 

today. 

I will offer four main points that suggest we should take a cautionary approach to applying overly prescriptive mandates for energy efficiency levels. My comments are directed at the broader 

question of mandates, not the specific proponents of the 22 bills 

you are considering today, but I do hope they can offer useful, general guidance considering government’s role in regulating energy 

and reducing pollution. 

My first point is that market prices for energy and energy intensive products provide important information about both the 

strength of consumer demand and the scarcity of supply, but the 

prices can be misleading to the extent that they do not account for 

the associated pollution costs. In the market for appliances, for example, prices reflect how much consumers value certain features 

such as energy efficiency and convenience and they also reflect constraints on production such as the state of technology. The problem 

arises if the price that shows up on a consumer’s electricity bill 

does not account for the environmental damage caused by the energies. 

This leads to my second point. The best way to address environmental damage caused by energy use is for the government to 

charge a price for these pollution costs. By pricing pollution consumers and businesses would face the full cost of their energy use 

which would then create incentives to reduce pollution as cheaply 

as possible through some combination of new technologies, alternative fuels and conservation. 

There are a number of reasons why mandates in particular do 

not work as well as the pricing approach. 

First, the one size fits all mandate ignores a substantial diversity 

of preferences, financial resources and personal situations that consumers and businesses must consider. 

Second, by lowering the energy costs of using a product a mandate provides an incentive for using these products more rather 

than less. Moreover mandates apply only to new products which 

can create an incentive for consumers and businesses to retain 

older, less environmentally friendly goods. 

Mandates might be preferable to pricing approach when measuring pollution is costly or infeasible or when those choosing the 

technology do not pay for their energy costs. But this is typically, 

although not always, the case when it comes to energy use and 

greenhouse gases. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
74 

My third point is that for the recent mandates that Kip Viscusi 

and I examined we found that although they are frequently advertised as greenhouse gas initiatives in truth their environmental 

benefits are quite small and are frequently outweighed by the cost 

they impose. We found this result in our examination of a number 

of mandates for consumer goods such as clothes dryers and room 

air conditioners and others. 

The question then is how are these mandates justified if they 

yield environmental benefits that are outweighed by their costs? 

This leads to my final point. 

In order to justify these mandates the agencies assert that consumers and businesses are irrational when buying energy intensive 

goods and thus receive massive benefits if the government restricts 

their choices. The agencies invoke broad references to the behavioral economics literature to support the claims of consumer rationality but they present little or no concrete evidence. 

They also ignore what I think is the key policy implication of behavioral economics which I think is appropriate for the legislation 

that you are considering today which is that it is more effective to 

address poor decision making by consumers and firms through softer regulatory nudges such as providing clearer information to consumers and encouraging voluntary measures rather than going 

straight to using costly mandates that restrict choice. 

Given the unpopularity of levying a revenue neutral tax on pollution I fear we are instead opting for mandates that are advertised 

as environmental protection but are justified by weak claims of 

consumer protection. In other words we are shifting our regulatory 

priorities from the goal of reducing the harm individuals impose on 

others through pollution towards the more nebulous non-supported 

goal of reducing our individuals cost to themselves by purchasing 

reportedly uneconomic products. 

This shifts results in a host of costly mandates that are less effective than a government policy that simply sets a price on pollution. 

To summarize, to the extent that energy prices fail to incorporate 

the environmental cost of energy use, I believe the most sensible 

approach is to price those costs directly. Mandates are inferior policies but still may be better than doing nothing if the benefits exceed the costs. 

Unfortunately by the agency’s own estimates many of the mandates frequently lead to minimal environmental benefits that are 

less than the estimated cost. But in an effort to justify these uneconomic regulations the agencies have deviated from, what I believe, 

are well established economic tenants by asserting that consumers 

and businesses are irrational and that they therefore benefit from 

government mandates that restrict choice. 

I believe the evidence for this view is weak, and assuming that 

citizens are not capable of making sensible decisions that affect 

their own pocketbooks is not the right way for us to advance the 

important goal of enhancing the quality of our environment. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Gayer follows:] 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
75 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 051 here 95273A.371
76 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 052 here 95273A.372
77 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Nadel, welcome to the Committee. Good 

morning. 

STATEMENT OF STEVEN NADEL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, 

AMERICAN COUNCIL FOR AN ENERGY-EFFICIENT ECONOMY 

Mr. NADEL. Okay, good morning. 

And Madam Chair, it is good to see you in a new Chair since the 

last time I testified, and I look forward to your questions and working with all the other members of the Committee. 

As a number of the witnesses have noted the United States has 

made substantial progress in reducing energy waste and improving 

energy efficiency in all sectors of our economy, but there is some 

potential to do much more. Our studies at ACEEE find that cost 

effective energy efficiency measures can reduce U.S. energy use by 

40 percent or more. 

Continued efforts to promote energy efficiency will reduce consumer and business energy costs, strengthen our economy, help improve the security and resiliency of our energy systems and protect 

the environment. 

Passage of S. 535 early this month was a great start, but there 

is much more that the 114th Congress can do including enacting 

any of the bills before us today. 

As we know today’s hearing is on 22 different efficiency bills. We 

appreciate that the Committee is focusing a hearing on energy efficiency and that the Chairwoman has indicated that a forthcoming 

comprehensive energy bill will include a specific title on energy efficiency. 

It has been eight years since Congress last passed a major piece 

of energy legislation. We have had a few smaller bills, but we look 

forward to hopefully completing a major piece this year. 

History indicates that such legislation can only be enacted with 

broad, bipartisan support. Highly politicized issues are unlikely to 

receive the 60 votes that are needed in the Senate, and even if a 

bill passes in the Senate, getting a more conservative House and 

a more liberal President to accept the legislation will require sticking to provisions with broad, bipartisan support. 

Based on these principles in my written testimony I divide the 

bills before us into seven categories. Now I am just going to discuss 

a few of those categories. 

The first category and the one that should be the centerpiece of 

this legislation is bills that already have strong, bipartisan support. 

The Shaheen/Portman, Portman/Shaheen bill is the leading example of a bill in this category. It contains more than a dozen useful provisions. 

In 2013 we estimated the energy savings from this bill and found 

that on a cumulative basis it would save about 12 quadrillion BTUs 

of energy. That is about how much energy Texas uses in a year. 

And Texas is, by far, our largest energy consumer. 

Most of the energy savings in this bill come from the building 

code and mortgage underwriting sections. So those are particularly 

important. 

As Senator Portman noted our 2013 analysis also found that this 

bill would support about 190,000 jobs by 2030. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
78 

There are a number of other bills, though, that are also in this 

first category of demonstrated bipartisan support such as S. 600, 

that Senator Klobuchar talked about earlier and Senator Hoeven, 

dealing with retrofits to nonprofit buildings. 

S. 623, dealing with utility energy service contracts that Senator 

Schatz talked about. 

And S. 858, dealing with the energy savings through public/private partnerships that a number of Senators both here and in the 

previous panel discussed. 

So, that, I believe, should be at the heart of the bill. 

There are also many bills that were introduced more recently 

and haven’t had an opportunity to get that strong, bipartisan support. We see six of these bills as potentially falling into this category. 

The Smart Building Acceleration Act that Senator Cantwell has 

introduced. 

The Commercial Building Benchmarking bill that Senator 

Franken has introduced that goes a little bit farther than what’s 

already in S. 535. 

There’s the Energy Star Integrity Act that Senator Risch did. 

There’s Senator Udall’s Energy and Water Efficiency Act. 

Senator Markey’s Access to Consumer Energy Information Act as 

well as Senator Franken’s bill on alternative fuel vehicles. 

We’d also note there are a couple of other bills that are not in 

the hearing today that may fall into this category. 

I would also note that there is one bill that we do support that 

we are unsure if it will have the bipartisan support. 

This is the Energy Efficiency Resource Standard bill that Senator 

Franken introduced and that Senator Cantwell mentioned before. 

This would establish energy saving targets that electric and natural gas utilities must meet, the target slowly rising over time. 

Presently 24 states have such targets and they’ve proven to be very 

effective at both saving energy and doing so at low cost. 

We estimate the energy savings from this bill is about three 

times what the Portman/Shaheen bill would do. Ideally we do them 

both, but we see that as an important marker about what could be 

accomplished with Federal legislation. 

Finally I’d note that there are a few bills that we have concerns 

about as written in current form. 

This would be S. 1047 which reviews rulemaking proceedings 

and the bills on ceiling fans and furnaces. We think they are well 

intentioned but are poorly written and could cause some significant, adverse consequences in their current form. I have some specific written comments about particular problems with these bills, 

and I’m happy to answer further questions about them. 

So with that, I’ll conclude my testimony and look forward to your 

questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Nadel follows:] 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
79 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 053 here 95273A.373
80 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 054 here 95273A.374
81 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 055 here 95273A.375
82 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 056 here 95273A.376
83 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 057 here 95273A.377
84 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 058 here 95273A.378
85 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 059 here 95273A.379
86 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 060 here 95273A.380
87 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 061 here 95273A.381
88 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 062 here 95273A.382
89 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 063 here 95273A.383
90 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 064 here 95273A.384
91 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 065 here 95273A.385
92 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 066 here 95273A.386
93 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 067 here 95273A.387
94 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, we appreciate that, and we will soon 

turn to questions after we hear from Mr. Therriault. 

Welcome to the Committee, Gene. 

STATEMENT OF HON. GENE THERRIAULT, VICE-CHAIRMAN, 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF STATE ENERGY OFFICIALS, AND 

DEPUTY DIRECTOR, ENERGY POLICY AND OUTREACH, ALASKA ENERGY AUTHORITY 

Mr. THERRIAULT. Thank you, Madam Chairman. I wanted to 

thank you and members of the Committee. 

I am Gene Therriault, Deputy Director of state-wide energy policy development with the Alaska Energy Authority and Vice Chairman of the National Association of State Energy Officials. I’d like 

to thank you, Madam Chairman, for the opportunity to speak today 

and I would ask that my entire written testimony be included in 

the record. 

I am testifying today on behalf of NASEO, whose membership includes the nation’s 56 governor-designated state and territory energy offices. Across the nation the energy offices are focused on economic development and balanced energy policies. Energy efficiency 

is certainly included in that mix of policies and programs. 

NASEO applauds the Committee for holding this hearing on a 

large number of energy efficiency legislative items. Our written testimony discusses the bills in greater detail and sets forth examples 

of state programs that have achieved tremendous success. These 

programs could be expanded if a number of the bills you are considering today were to be passed into law. 

Specifically, NASEO endorses the Weatherization Enhancement 

and Local Energy Efficiency Investment and Accountability Act. 

That is Senate bill 703 which would reauthorize the appropriations 

for the state energy programs and reauthorize the weatherization 

assistance program. This bill is sponsored by Senators Coons, Collins, Reed and Shaheen and recognizes the value of this longstanding partnership between the states and the Federal Government. It helps real Americans every day. The state energy program 

provides formula funding for the states to support a range of activities for energy efficiency and energy emergency preparedness, and 

the flexibility that is involved in that piece of legislation or those 

programs is very key for states. 

Weatherization has helped make the homes of 7.4 million families across the nation more energy efficient thus helping the poor, 

elderly, disabled and veterans every single day. For example, the 

$7 billion per year energy services performance contracting industry is an example of state energy offices working with the private 

sector to save taxpayer dollars. 

NASEO also supports the energy savings and Industrial Competitiveness Act, Senate bill 720, the Shaheen/Portman bill, also 

the Energy Savings Through Public/Private Partnership Act which 

is S. 858, the Energy Productivity Innovative Challenges Act which 

is S. 893, the Residential Energy Savings Act, S. 878, the PREPARE Act which is S. 888 and the Energy Retrofitting Assistance 

to Schools, which you’ve heard about previously, which is S. 523. 

The NASEO members and leadership are still reviewing the 

other bills that have been brought before the Committee and we 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
95 

may have further comments as you continue your proceedings on 

the energy legislation. 

In Alaska, like other states, we leverage our state energy program dollars to address important energy needs. Again, it is a partnership between the states and the Federal Government and is a 

rare program because of the degree of flexibility that is given to 

each state under the funding that is provided. Across the nation 

every Federal dollar in this program leverages almost 11 other dollars that come in from different sources and saves over seven dollars for every Federal dollar spent. 

My colleagues and I at different state energy offices work every 

day to break down barriers and assist businesses and homeowners. 

While the states represent a wide range of political views, we all 

see the value of these programs since the production and efficient 

use of energy is critical to our local and state economic prosperity. 

I would also be remiss if I did not briefly comment on the Quadrennial Energy Review, the QER. 

You had Secretary Moniz before the Committee on the 28th of 

this month, and the Secretary and his staff have been very open 

to states with regard to the QER and solicited input from the 

states. 

There are a number of opportunities for addressing our critical 

infrastructure, energy infrastructure, needs and to address our energy challenges including energy efficiency. The QER is a positive 

step in understanding the current status of our energy, nation’s energy, programs and infrastructure. However, NASEO wants to encourage the maximum collaboration with states as this program 

continues to progress. 

For example, the process could benefit from a closer collaboration 

with the State of Alaska that takes full advantage of decades of investment in innovation in serving energy needs in the Arctic. 

We look forward to working with the Committee and the DOE 

in implementing many of the recommendations contained in the 

QER. 

And with that, that concludes my formal oral statements. I do 

want to thank you, Madam Chairman, and the rest of your colleagues in all your efforts to get successful passage of Senate bill 

535. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Therriault follows:] 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
96 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 068 here 95273A.388
97 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 069 here 95273A.389
98 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 070 here 95273A.390
99 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 071 here 95273A.391
100 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 072 here 95273A.392
101 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 073 here 95273A.393
102 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 074 here 95273A.394
103 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 075 here 95273A.395
104 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 076 here 95273A.396
105 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 077 here 95273A.397
106 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 078 here 95273A.398
107 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 079 here 95273A.399
108 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 080 here 95273A.400
109 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Therriault, I appreciate your 

comments and your good work not only in the state but on behalf 

of the Association of State Energy Officials. Appreciate the work. 

I think we recognize that we have no shortage of programs out 

there that are designed to address some of the efficiencies whether 

it is on the state side or whether it is on the Federal side. I think 

this has been some of the concern we have heard is how do you 

know even where to access? You mentioned collaboration. We need 

to streamline. I think these are areas where we would all agree we 

have got some work to do. 

Some of the bills that we are looking at, such as the proposals 

to impose a national energy efficiency resource standard, would result in Federal programs that resemble, somewhat, what we have 

in place at the state level. So this is a question to anyone who 

would care to engage. 

If the states are successfully implementing these types of programs should we, at the Federal level, be duplicating or overruling 

their efforts or decisions with a Federal overlay? 

We talk a lot about giving flexibility to the states, and certainly 

we want to do what we can from a broader perspective to encourage these efficiencies, but are we in a situation now where we are 

not giving the flexibility to the states that we need? And instead 

working at your end of the spectrum, Dr. Hogan, in an overlay of 

Federal policies that may just further complicate matters? 

I will ask both you, Dr. Hogan and you, Mr. Therriault, from the 

states’ perspective and the Federal perspective. How do we deal 

with this? Because I think this is part of our required review of not 

only what we have with these 22 bills, but how we bring about efficiency within our processes so that we make sure that the programs are working. 

Dr. Hogan, why don’t you begin? 

Dr. HOGAN. So I think there is, clearly, a lot more opportunity 

for what we can do with energy efficiency. As you point out it does 

require, sort of, an effective collaboration across the Federal, state 

and local entities as well as engagement with the private sector. 

I think your question was specifically around, sort of, energy efficiency resource standards as one tool to do that, and you were 

pointing out that many states are doing this. 

And I think what’s interesting is when you look at the states 

that are doing this the benefits that they are getting from their approaches are quite significant. And they are showing that they can 

do it quite cost effectively. And then at the same time when you 

look around the country you see that other states have a similar 

opportunity for energy efficiency but really haven’t figured out how 

to get organized in a way to go and capture as much of it as the 

states that are pursuing the energy efficiency resource standards 

are. 

The CHAIRMAN. But then if we require that then we lose some 

of the flexibility that Mr. Therriault has suggested is imperative. 

Can you speak to that? 

Mr. THERRIAULT. Yes. First of all, NASEO, the organization has 

not taken an official stance on energy efficiency resource standards. 

I think to the general comment or the question, we certainly do 

not want the Federal programs structured that duplicate the state 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
110 

efforts. We really are looking for legislation that has a partnership 

with states. 

In the State of Alaska the work that’s being done by the Cold 

Climate Housing Resource Center, the Alaska Center for Energy 

and Power, have done a lot of work and quite often there is a little 

bit of a dance that goes on between those state entities and the 

Federal entities to encourage them to partner with the state entities to maybe take the work to the next standard. There may be 

a need to assist and partner with the Federal, the state agencies, 

to achieve more. 

But anything that you can do to prevent the Federal legislation 

from just being a duplication of what’s going on in so many of the 

states would be most welcome. 

The CHAIRMAN. It is going to require critical review. 

Mr. Nadel. 

Mr. NADEL. Yes, just briefly. 

The bill, the EERS bill, actually does call for the states to administer them. There are quite a few provisions in there to let the 

states have quite a bit of flexibility in terms of interpretation. I 

think it is an example of a bill where sometimes something one or 

in this case half the states are doing that could benefit the country. 

And therefore, I’d recommend considering it while recognizing some 

of the concerns that you are expressing. 

The CHAIRMAN. Understood. I appreciate it. 

Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

There are a lot of companies from the northwest, I think some 

of them are here today, Itron, Microsoft, Ellstrom, McKinstry, who 

are leaders in smart building acceleration. And so I wanted to ask 

you, Mr. Nadel and you, Dr. Hogan, about do you see new monitoring and control technologies as another step in incremental improvements in energy efficiency or are they likely to be game 

changers, you know, on a whole, in a sense of a whole new set of 

opportunities? 

Second, much of the technology needed to make buildings smarter is commercially available but development is slow. What do you 

think are some of the barriers to increasing that level of deployment? 

Either you, Mr. Nadel, or Dr. Hogan. 

Mr. NADEL. Okay, I will start. I would lean towards saying that 

smart building technology is also smart manufacturing technologies 

are more game changers. They take advantage of the information 

communication technologies that we all know and now carry in our 

pockets and have all throughout our homes and get information to 

us or to automatic controls to really, much better, recognize energy 

waste in real time and control it. 

We’re finding energy savings of 15 to even 50 percent, depending 

on the application people are using. So it is much more than incremental. 

I’d also note that it makes possible a new set of programs where 

you can start much better monitoring the energy savings in real 

time and pay for performance rather than just pay as a percent of 

how much it costs or what you think it may get. So I do see these 

as game changers. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
111 

I think, to pick up on your second question, consumers are not 

investing in these yet. They’re relatively new. They do not know 

about them. They’re improving. They’re not sure they trust them. 

So I appreciate the fact that your bill, S. 1046, would set up a 

number of programs, do case studies, work with the Federal Government so we can both save energy, but use the Federal case studies to demonstrate to other people what is possible would help leverage other programs such as DOE’s Better Building Challenge to 

help promote smart building technologies as well as leverage our 

national labs and have them do applied R and D where it is needed 

to address particular barriers. 

So these are the types of things that need to happen with any 

good energy saving measure, but smart buildings included. 

Senator CANTWELL. Dr. Hogan? 

Dr. HOGAN. And at the Department we look at the opportunities 

for smart buildings and I’ll take the opportunity to extend that to 

smart manufacturing as well as game changers. Sort of a new generation of low cost sensors that give you the opportunity to take advantage of the equipment that you may already have and really 

make it work at optimum performance offers huge opportunities for 

energy savings in a very low cost way. 

And certainly we are doing a lot of that work through a number 

of the national laboratories right now including up in the Pacific 

Northwest. And we are very excited about what is going on. 

I think some of the barriers include that we need a next step in 

some of the low cost sensors, really making them as low cost as 

they can be as well as some improvements in the communication 

protocols and, sort of, the interoperability of things. And again, 

road maps that we are working to develop at the Department and 

really look forward to putting to work and would look forward to 

working with you on a bill that can really help make this happen. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. 

Mr. Crasi, you look like you had something to say and, Mr. 

Therriault, I do not know if you have any thoughts about building 

performance issues or particular projects that you think might be 

targets for this kind of thing? 

Mr. Crasi. 

Mr. CRASI. Yes, Ma’am. Thanks for the opportunity. 

Here in Washington with the National Association of Home 

Builders, I’ve been involved with the technology of home automation and the progression I’ve watched over the last, say, six or 

seven years. And what we find is one of the most sought after 

items in technology is a smart home that controls your heating, 

cooling, your energy output. 

And I think it is a wonderful opportunity and it doesn’t need to 

be expensive. And you had asked about the barriers and that’s 

what caught my attention is one of the big barriers are, is, the lack 

of a consistent platform across all the different manufacturers. And 

once you solve that problem all the systems start to talk to each 

other because there’s a huge reluctance. 

Somebody had just mentioned the reluctance of consumers to 

jump in it is because what happens is you have conflicts between 

the different systems. And they get frustrated and they stop using 

them. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
112 

But we, I am part of a nonprofit that produces very affordable 

housing. And to prove a point, I got one of the national guys involved and he put in, for $1,500, he put in an entire system in a 

$100,000 home that controlled the heating, it controlled the lighting. It controlled security, everything. Just to prove a point, it can 

be done. But if you ask about those barriers, one of the biggest barriers is getting those platforms to work with each other. 

Senator CANTWELL. Well, we would like to see that house, but 

interoperability is a big issue. The reason I am asking this question 

is because 40 percent of our energy use is in buildings and so if 

you key in on this then you can get some of these savings that you 

are talking about, 15 to 50 percent. That is pretty big. 

I know our time is expired, but maybe you could, for the record, 

tell us some of the things that might be helpful in Alaska. 

Mr. THERRIAULT. Certainly, through the Chair. 

Certainly in Alaska where the space heat really is the critically 

energy demand on a yearly basis for commercial buildings and residential. And so being able to have the systems in any building 

work with each other to get maximum efficiency is ideal. 

I think, Madam Chairman, that’s one of the areas that, again, 

the Cold Climate Housing Research Center at the University of 

Alaska is looking at ways to bring the latest technology into the 

northern application and make it work as best as possible. 

One of the things that we have to continually keep a focus on 

though is making it as simple as possible. When you are talking 

about taking technology and putting it out into a very small village 

and having it where it can be maintained, understood, fully utilized, it has to be not only cost effective, but also something that 

is easily understood. And so that’s one of the things that I think, 

again, some of our local research would be good information back 

to the industry that is developing this to make it so that it is really 

inherently useable in a situation like the State of Alaska. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Flake. 

Senator FLAKE. Thank you. Thank you for the testimony. 

Let me begin talking about a bill that I have introduced with 

Senator Booker. It is S. 939. It responds to the GAO study, a recommendation that Federal agencies evaluate the 94 green building 

programs that span 11 Federal agencies to try to determine if there 

are opportunities for consolidation and reducing duplication. 

I want to thank Senator Portman for joining me in an amendment that we had through budget resolution, amendment number 

822 which also provides for a reduction in duplicative programs. 

I think when GAO, which is obviously a nonpartisan, independent agency, provides a recommendation on how government 

can become more efficient we ought to take heed and we need to 

look hard at these recommendations. In this case GAO made the 

recommendation in 2012. This legislation I have introduced with 

Senator Booker would make just a very modest step to ensure that 

these recommendations are considered. 

But to Dr. Hogan, can you talk a little about DOE’s capability 

to evaluate these green building programs and to identify areas 

that might—areas for consolidation or improvement? 

Dr. HOGAN. Certainly. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
113 

The Department of Energy has capabilities to look at programs. 

I think the Administration, sort of, more broadly has approaches 

to ensure that the programs across the Federal Government are 

well coordinated. 

I mean, I think I can also speak to the programs that we run 

at the Department. I think most of the ones that are in your 

amendment that are within the Department actually reside under 

me. So I think I can speak quite well to how well and how committed we are to ensure these are effectively coordinated and that 

they do have separate but complementary missions that are all 

doing what it is they are supposed to do with the Federal taxpayer 

dollar. 

Senator FLAKE. 94 green building programs scattered across 11 

agencies. My guess is that GAO is right that we need to consolidate 

and eliminate duplication here. 

Dr. HOGAN. Well, what I would love to do is first, perhaps, start 

with the Department’s programs and come up and show you and/ 

or your staff, sort of how we are strategically orienting the programs that we have to meet sort of the missions they have and how 

they complement each other. 

Senator FLAKE. Well, thank you. We would appreciate that. And 

do you have any thoughts on the other agencies? Are they as 

proactive as you are? I know most of them reside under your agency, but—— 

Dr. HOGAN. I think I do not know the number. It sort of depends 

on how you count here. 

You know, a fair number of them are under the Department of 

Energy. But certainly there are programs. 

But, you know, I am happy to engage in a conversation with everything that we know with you and your staff about the programs 

as we look at that GAO chart and how they complement each 

other. 

Senator FLAKE. Alright, I appreciate that. 

Mr. Nadel, I want to ask you about Section 433 of S. 720. In this 

section the HUD Secretary is directed to issue underwriting guidelines to require banks to adjust the mortgage applicant’s income 

and artificially increase the appraised value of the property based 

on the predicted energy cost savings, the so called SAVE Act. Especially in light of the financial crisis we had in 2008 which was partly a result, I think, of us trying to meddle in underwriting standards. 

Do you have some concerns about this? Do we really understand 

the mortgage markets enough to try to mandate and artificially increase or increase appraisal values when the market isn’t doing it? 

Mr. NADEL. Okay. Yes, we do support this bill. I noticed that 

NAHB also noted that they support this bill. We think there is a 

lot of good data indicating that if you reduce the energy use and 

therefore if you have more money in the homeowner’s pocket, they 

can afford a larger mortgage. There, in fact, are a number of independent studies showing that the default rates are lower for highly 

efficient homes than less efficient homes. 

We certainly recognize you have to be very careful with the underwriting standard, and we are only supporting this bill and advoVerDate Sep 11 2014 23:01 Feb 09, 2016 Jkt 095273 PO 00000 Frm 00121 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A273.XXX A273

asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
114 

cating it along with NAHB and the realtors and others because 

there is a good, firm basis of empirical evidence that this can work. 

Senator FLAKE. Well, you were referencing one study. I know 

there is one study that indicates the default risks are lower in energy efficient homes. This was conducted by the Institute for Market Transformation, a DC-based, nonprofit, dedicated at promoting 

energy efficiency. 

I am not entirely sure that we ought to rely on one study like 

this when the markets, I mean, we are basically saying the markets are not recognizing this. We are going to tell the markets 

what to recognize. I always get scared when government does that. 

I think there is history, that cautions us in doing that. Does anybody have any caution there? 

Mr. Gayer, you are an economist or do you dabble in that kind 

of area? Do you have any caution there? 

Dr. GAYER. Caution on what in particular? 

Senator FLAKE. In terms of telling the agencies that deal with 

these home loans to artificially increase the appraisal value of the 

house or change the underwriting standards to account for more 

energy efficient homes. 

Dr. GAYER. I do not know the specifics of it, but certainly when 

you are changing the appraisal and underwriting we’ve all learned 

the lessons of what weak underwriting can accomplish for the economy since 2008. 

Senator FLAKE. Well, that is my concern as well, and I hope we 

will be careful moving ahead and base this on more than just a 

study by a one nonprofit organization. I think the markets are typically smarter than we are here, and if they do not recognize the 

value, we need to be careful in trying to assign a value to this. So 

that is my concern. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator Franken. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

I want to revisit the energy efficiency resource standard because 

I think it is the way that we can most effectively reduce our energy 

use. 24 states, including my state of Minnesota, have already 

adopted the Energy Efficiency Resource Standards which require 

electricity and natural gas utilities become a little more efficient 

each year. That is 24 states. Scientists tell us that is almost half 

our states. [Laughter.] 

If we adopt a similar standard at the Federal level we would unleash the manufacturing and deployment of all kinds of energy efficient products throughout the economy and that would reduce not 

only our energy use, but also people’s electricity bills across the 

country. I am a supporter and co-sponsor of Shaheen/Portman, but 

since the Committee is now looking to do a comprehensive energy 

bill we need to have a conversation about what comprehensive energy efficiency looks like, and I believe that a central piece of that 

is the energy efficiency resource standard. I want to thank the 

Ranking Member for mentioning it and thank the Chair for bringing it up for discussion in her questions. 

Mr. Nadel, it is actually kind of remarkable that while Congress 

has been sitting on the sidelines about half our states have impleVerDate Sep 11 2014 23:01 Feb 09, 2016 Jkt 095273 PO 00000 Frm 00122 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A273.XXX A273

asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
115 

mented energy efficiency standards. Can you give us a broad overview of how these programs are working across the nation? 

Mr. NADEL. They generally are working very well. Basically the 

states have set their goals. They typically increase gradually over 

time. The utilities then offer energy efficiency programs to their 

customers whether they are homeowners or businesses to help 

them to improve energy efficiency. 

It’s technical assistance. It’s helping to improve stocking of efficient products. Sometimes it will be financial incentives to pay a 

small portion of the cost to make it more attractive so the customers then buy those measures. 

But we’ve done an evaluation of those studies. And on average 

all of the states are exceeding the targets. Many times they are 

saving more than the target’s mandate, and they are doing so very 

cost effectively. Typically benefit cost ratio for these utility programs are two to one or even three to one. 

Senator FRANKEN. To me this is a perfect example of the states 

as laboratories, as the founders really envisioned. And the laboratory has got a positive. [Laughter.] 

You know, eureka, they were saying on all these states. 

Dr. Hogan, would you agree that these are working at the states, 

the state level? 

Dr. HOGAN. Yes, from everything we have looked at we see great 

results coming from the efforts of the states in this area. 

Senator FRANKEN. So and your organization has estimated the 

energy savings. What would we see if this were adopted as outlined 

in my new bill, S. 1063, as they compare to all of Shaheen or 

Portman/Shaheen? 

Mr. NADEL. Right. We analyzed both of them in 2013. In 2013 

we found the savings from your bill, the ERS was about three 

times what Shaheen/Portman would save. We would like them 

both. We like the total of—— 

Senator FRANKEN. So instead of 22,000,000 cars off the road, 

with this there would be 88 together? 

Mr. NADEL. Yes, about. And very large financial savings, we esti- mate net savings to consumers and businesses would be over $125 

billion as a result of this. 

Senator FRANKEN. So as happy as we are when we are 

celebratory and dancing around as celebrating ourselves on Shaheen/Portman or Portman/Shaheen. Whoopee, yea, yea, yea, 

22,000,000 cars. Think about 88,000,000. Wow. 

Anyway. [Laughter.] 

I do not have enough time to really bring up my benchmarking 

bill, but we have done that on leasing Federal buildings or buildings leased by the Federal Government. Now I am talking about 

commercial buildings. Everybody think that is a good idea? Is there 

anyone who does not? Okay, benchmarking is good. That is a good 

idea. 

I am out of time, so I won’t talk about my energy service performance contracts on alternative vehicles except, as I am talking 

now, and going over my time. [Laughter.] 

I think it is a splendid idea, but I am out of time, so I will not 

continue to talk about it. [Laughter.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Senator Franken. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
116 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that. 

Senator Warren. 

Senator WARREN. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Energy efficiency technologies can be a pretty good deal. I was 

thinking about this. It seems to me they are a three-fer. They protect the environment. They fight climate change. They save money 

for consumers. 

Actually maybe I should say it is a four-fer because the energy 

efficiency industry is creating a lot of new jobs, good jobs, in Massachusetts and elsewhere across the country. 

Last Congress Senator Crapo and I introduced legislation to encourage the use of technologies that allow businesses to operate 

their buildings and their equipment in the most effective way and 

energy efficient ways, from light sensors that turn off lights when 

nobody is in the room to software that optimizes a company’s shipping routes. Businesses can reduce their costs and protect the environment simultaneously. 

Now we know that these programs work, but without a definitive 

study quantifying cost savings, businesses have had a hard time 

weighing the costs against the benefits. Without good data they 

have been slow to embrace some of these tools. So I will soon be 

introducing a bill to direct the Department of Energy to conduct a 

study showing exactly how much money businesses and governments can save by adopting various technologies. 

I wanted to start though by asking you, Dr. Hogan, can you talk 

about how quantifying the cost savings from energy efficiency technologies can encourage more businesses to adopt practices while 

protecting the environment? 

Dr. HOGAN. Certainly. I think being able to demonstrate packages of technologies from what they cost and the savings they deliver over time is one of the key tools that we have to demonstrate 

to the private sector the types of things that are there that are 

working and that they can go on and embrace. So very effective. 

Senator WARREN. Good. Can I just ask you, Mr. Nadel, do you 

believe that proof of the bottom line benefits of these operational 

efficiency, energy efficiency, technologies would encourage more 

businesses to adopt them? 

Mr. NADEL. Absolutely. Many businesses are leery of new 

unproven things. They are very busy, and you really need to show 

them concrete evidence this will work in their application for them 

to get comfortable. 

Senator WARREN. Good. Thank you. And Mr. Therriault, can you 

talk about the importance of quantifiable benefits in your work to 

encourage the adoption of energy efficient technologies? 

Mr. THERRIAULT. I think across the nation and in different states 

and certainly in the State of Alaska, when it comes to energy efficiency improvements in residential structures and also as we’ve actually teed up legislation in our legislature this year for PACE financing which is a mechanism to help businesses implement energy efficiency at their businesses. 

In all of those the effort starts with an audit of the house or an 

audit of the business, and then an estimation or showing that 

there’s a business plan that the savings would be enough to make 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
117 

the payment and hopefully, actually, result in positive cash flow 

immediately for the business. And then there, in the PACE legislation that we introduced this year, Governor Walker introduced this 

year, is patterned after a Texas bill which passed about a year and 

a half ago. There is then a follow up audit to make sure that the 

technology was installed correctly, is operating correctly and the 

savings actually are being achieved. 

Hopefully those efforts then, along with any kind of information 

from the national labs that show the technology and the use of 

technology and the success of technology starts to build on itself. 

And in the State of Alaska I know with our residential work our 

Alaska Housing Finance Corporation is the one that gathers all 

that data, is able then to present it back to the national and first 

national programs and also to our state legislature to show that we 

are achieving the goals. And that word starts to spread. It really 

starts to snowball. 

We have seen it happen with residential energy efficiency improvements, and we believe we are on the precipice of kicking it 

off for businesses. 

Senator WARREN. Well, thank you Mr. Therriault, you speak to 

the heart of someone who is a data nerd. 

Energy efficiency programs, I think we all agree, are critical to 

reducing carbon emissions and fighting global climate change. We 

have the technology that can reduce carbon emissions while simultaneously driving down costs for businesses and consumers. 

It seems to me this is a place where the Federal Government can 

make a real difference, not by regulation, not by spending money, 

but providing data for evaluating the dollars and cents benefits of 

different technologies. 

I look forward to working with all of you to finding ways to improve energy efficiency, save money and preserve our heritage. 

Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Warren. Senator Hoeven. 

Senator HOEVEN. Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you 

to all of our witnesses who are here today. Thanks for holding this 

hearing on energy efficiency. 

I have introduced two bills and co-sponsored a third with Senator 

Klobuchar aimed at addressing common sense energy efficiency reforms. We had an opportunity, Senator Klobuchar was here earlier, 

to talk about that bill which I appreciate very much. And we have 

a lot of support from a lot of nonprofit organizations. We believe 

it would be a very helpful piece of legislation for us to pass. 

The other two that I want to mention, briefly, is first the Federal 

Building Energy Efficiency bill. Essentially this goes to Section 433 

which is a requirement that the use of fossil fuels be phased out 

in all Federal buildings. The legislation I have submitted is bipartisan legislation. Co-sponsors include Senator Joe Manchin and 

Senator Donnelly of Indiana. This legislation would essentially 

allow us to continue to use fossil fuels in Federal buildings, but we 

keep the goal of energy efficiency. So what we say is that you could 

use whatever source of fuel, but you still need to meet these energy 

efficiency targets. It accomplishes the purpose of the legislation but 

it just says, you know, you can use whatever fuel source to get 

there as long as you are still meeting these efficiency goals. I think 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
118 

that is why we have bipartisan support. I think it is very common 

sense legislation and hope to get, like I say, good bipartisan support to pass it. 

So I ask for unanimous consent to add a support letter from 22 

energy efficiency organizations to the record. 

The CHAIRMAN. So noted. 

Senator HOEVEN. These include the Alliance to Save Energy, the 

National Rural Electric Cooperative Association, Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Energy Association. And like I say, many others. So if I 

could ask you to add that to the record which you have agreed to, 

I appreciate it very much. 

The second bill I would like to mention and then I will turn to 

Mr. Crasi for comment, is the Furnace Fix bill. I have introduced 

this with Senator Lamar Alexander of Tennessee which would address concerns regarding the DOE’s recently proposed regulations 

on furnace energy efficiency. 

What it deals with is this new requirement that DOE is putting 

forth that you can’t vent a furnace out the top of the roof or the 

chimney. You have to essentially vent to the side. This is a piece 

of legislation that would address that regulation they are imposing, 

again, in a way, that I think is common sense. 

So I ask for unanimous consent to add a support letter from six 

national organizations including the National Association of Home 

Builders, the America Public Gas Association, ACCA, the Indoor 

Environment and Refrigeration Institute and others to the record. 

The CHAIRMAN. They will be included as part of the record. 

Senator HOEVEN. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

I would now like to turn to Mr. Crasi. In regard to this legislation, Mr. Crasi, how will the Energy Department’s proposed furnace regulation affect home builders like yourself? 

Mr. CRASI. It is a very good question. As a new home builder 

there’s virtually no impact because we design around a new system. We haven’t installed an 80 plus furnace, I can’t remember the 

last time we’ve installed one. But the challenge comes with the unintended consequences. 

Senator Murkowski, you mentioned in the beginning, is that in 

a retrofit, especially in a townhome situation where you might have 

a slab on grade type of a unit, maybe sandwiched between three 

other units. In a slab on grade generally what’s happening is that 

the heating unit is usually in the center of the unit, and then in 

many cases you have vaulted ceilings. 

What happens is that the question becomes if you can’t go up 

anymore how do you replace that system and go out because 

there’s no way to do it. 

I can give you a real life example. My first home was a three 

family, 1863 home. When I started to learn about efficiency, when 

I first bought it we put an 80 plus furnace in. It was 1980 something. And when I went to retrofit this about two years ago with 

a 90 plus furnace I said well, there’s no way I am going to put an 

80 plus back in there. 

And then I looked, I go, well how am I going to vent this now? 

Knowing what I know about paybacks and so forth I did do that, 

but it cost me an additional $800 to redo my bathroom. I had to 

rebuild a shower because it was the only way to get it out. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
119 

So what happens is that the payback literally doubled. So instead of a six or seven year payback it became a 12 to a 14 year 

payback, and then if you go down south where there’s virtually no 

payback it becomes very challenging. 

So I would say that the unintended consequences to be very cautious in that bill or I should say, be very cautious of that particular 

rule. 

Senator HOEVEN. So it is a rule that could pose significant expenses, particularly on low income individuals that they would 

never be able to recoup? 

Mr. CRASI. Absolutely. 

Senator HOEVEN. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Crasi, I appreciate you 

being here and I appreciate your testimony. 

Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Hoeven. 

It goes to a point that I think there is a lot of discussion and talk 

about well, I want to do more. I would like to have an upgrade to 

the appliances or just weatherization, but it is the upfront cost and 

that is what seems to stop people, seems to stop so many from 

going further with that. 

As we deal with some of these issues and do the cost benefit 

analysis we can say well, okay, that payback time may be a little 

bit longer for me. I know that I should do it, but I do not have the 

resources available today and particularly for those lower income 

families, those middle income families who, quite honestly, look at 

their utility bills and want to be able to drive this down. 

Former Senator Therriault and I grew up in a town where energy costs in Fairbanks, Alaska are extraordinarily high right now. 

If you tell people that they can reduce their heating costs, their energy costs, they say sign me up today. But it is this upfront commitment that I think stalls out so many from these newer technologies. 

So questions to you and I guess I will throw it out to you, Mr. 

Therriault. From the state side we have a few programs that can 

help. Obviously within the weatherization programs we have the 

Weatherization Assistance Program. We have got LIHEAP that is 

there to help low income families with their high energy bills. But 

in terms of those programs that can really help families get into 

these new technologies, what do we have out there on state side 

and on Federal side? 

Mr. THERRIAULT. Well, Madam Chairman, I know that in the 

State of Alaska some of the LIHEAP money, sometimes, is utilized 

to help upgrade furnace technology in a home. It can be used that 

way, so that is beneficial. 

I think that just with reference to the issue of the venting of the 

furnaces certainly in a state where space heat is such a critical 

part of the overall energy picture on a yearly basis. We’re going to 

get full utilization out of that furnace and going to be able to amortize that additional cost of the venting. But certainly as a state, a 

northern state, we represent, understand that other states, the 

southern states that that payback would be very long term and actually, may be, a deterrent from the home or even, you know, upgrading or it could actually encourage them to switch to electric 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
120 

heat which could be a less efficient form of energy in the first 

place. 

So that issue of unintended consequences, I think, really does 

have to be taken into consideration. 

And I am sorry, I got off here. Your main question? 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I was speaking to where a homeowner can 

go. Where do you go for that level of assistance to help with some 

of these upfront costs? 

Mr. Nadel, ACEEE looks at all of this energy efficiency, these 

measures that are out there to look at the cost benefit to the various efforts. I do not know, do you look as you are doing a cost benefit analysis? Do you look to what that upfront cost is and how 

much of a hindrance that is to even moving forward? 

Mr. NADEL. Yes, we definitely do, and we are strong proponents 

of energy efficiency financing, create financing to help homeowners 

and businesses address this upfront cost because most people do 

not have, you know, five thousand, ten thousand just sitting 

around ready for an upgrade. 

But Mr. Therriault mentioned PACE. Quite a few states have 

been implementing commercial PACE laws to address this. There’s 

also an opportunity for residential PACE. 

And in California they are doing an experiment where the state 

is putting up money to make sure that it doesn’t have adverse impacts on mortgage repayment rates. And as a result, get lots of 

data. If it has adverse impacts the State of California will pay, end 

of subject. If it actually pays and hopefully there are some information here that other states can be using. On bill finance is another 

approach. 

So there’s a lot of very creative approaches. Our organization actually sponsored an annual energy efficiency finance conference to 

bring together the financiers, utilities, the retrofitters, etcetera, to 

figure out how best to work it. But I agree with you, it is extremely 

important. 

Mr. THERRIAULT. Madam Chairman? 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Therriault, and then we will go to Dr. 

Hogan. 

Mr. THERRIAULT. Yes, just on the issue. Certainly being from 

Fairbanks, Alaska and still having family in Fairbanks, you know 

the issue there, and we are really confronted with that upfront 

cost. Trying to encourage people in that community to switch over 

to natural gas as the state has got this program to bring a larger 

source, make more natural gas available and really build out, rapidly, a gas distribution system. 

We’re trying to take the second largest metropolitan area and 

really change them over to natural gas as quickly as possible, but 

that upfront cost for an individual home can be ten or eleven thousand dollars. And so we have looked across the nation to other programs that states have used. 

That is why PACE legislation was introduced this year where 

you can help businesses convert to natural gas because that conversion, because natural gas appliances are so much more energy efficient than the fuel oil, does qualify as an energy efficiency step. 

And so we are putting PACE, we’ve teed up PACE as a financing 

mechanism to be put into place. No cost to the state. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
121 

It is a tool basically for local governments to use involving local 

lenders, and it is voluntary for the businesses. But we believe it is 

an attractive enough mechanism that it helps those businesses get 

over that initial hurdle. 

For residential situations, on bill financing, allowing that for the 

utility to help finance the individual residential conversion is a tremendous tool. We have done surveys and focus groups and found 

out that the benefits that are provided through on bill financing 

are very attractive to consumers much more so which is surprising 

then the actual interest rate that’s charged on the financing. 

So we have looked across the nation. We’re learning from other 

states, what other states have done, so we can apply those different 

mechanisms, hopefully at very low cost to the state government or 

no cost. But I think there is a potential rule where some dollars 

can come through, they might be state energy program dollars that 

could actually provide a loan loss guarantee on some of those loan 

mechanisms that could be very meaningful. 

So again, there are things that can be done and believe you, me, 

we are looking at all of them in the State of Alaska. 

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I appreciate that. 

My time has expired. Let me turn to Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I am sorry I 

had to step out for a few minutes. 

Mr. Crasi, I wanted to ask you about part of your testimony in 

Section 443. 

Well, first, Mr. Gayer, do you support the Shaheen/Portman bill? 

Dr. GAYER. Yeah. 

Senator CANTWELL. Okay. Part of that Shaheen/Portman bill, the 

SAVE Act, would direct HUD to issue updated underwriting guidelines to allow borrowers to voluntarily submit home energy reports 

on their home. These reports could then be used to adjust the mortgage account for a home’s energy use. Wouldn’t this proposed voluntary policy of accounting for energy efficiency increase the interest of homeowners and home buyers in efficiency? 

Mr. CRASI. Absolutely, it would. In any situation where you can 

incentivize a homeowner to do better rather than mandating it, as 

Dr. Gayer was saying, okay, you are going to get buy in. And a typical homeowner, a consumer is pretty smart. They know what they 

can afford. They know what their budgets are. 

And with the SAVE Act if you incentivize by allowing banks to 

take into account the lower utility bills, there’s part of your answer 

in how you afford. How do you offset some of that upfront cost? You 

do not necessarily have to raise the cost of the home or increase 

the cost of the loan. But if somehow the banks were allowed to reduce the payment based on utility prices, you’ve got built in savings. 

I think it is a very good idea because that’s what’s missing if you 

look at the 2012 code. It is not been adopted across the country because of cost effectiveness. And so what happens is that you have 

a code that, in its sense is a good code, but people look at it and 

say it looks just too expensive. 

So if you start to incentivize rather than mandate, I think you’ll 

get better buy-in and ultimately what you end up with is a more 

efficient use of energy in this country. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
122 

Senator CANTWELL. Well, Mr. Nadel, do you think there is a 

sweet spot here between energy efficiency and housing affordability 

or is it all good across the board? 

Mr. NADEL. No, there probably is a sweet spot. We have to pay 

attention to what is affordable. I think the key issue, particularly 

when it comes to building codes and building new construction is, 

since basically everybody finances their new home through a mortgage, you need to look at if you increase the cost for energy efficiency how much will that increase the mortgage payment and 

make sure that the monthly energy savings are greater than that. 

Current mortgage rates that will work out to be in the current 

code, the 2012 or even the 2015 code is quite cost effective. Pacific 

Northwest Lab in Richland, Washington did that detailed study 

and found that in general the first year mortgage costs are going 

to be less than the energy bill savings. So I think that’s the sweet 

spot. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator Portman. 

Senator PORTMAN. Thank you, Senator Murkowski. 

And again, I appreciate your willingness to hold a hearing and 

also your personal commitment to this issue from the start and 

your strong support for the legislation that has been to the Floor 

a couple times now and got to this Committee with a 19 to 3 vote 

last time. I think it is a demonstration of how much bipartisanship 

there is around at least some of these issues and specifically S. 

270. 

Senator Shaheen talked about it in detail earlier, so I won’t go 

into detail except to say that some of the things we heard about 

today, the ESPCs, certainly, the nonprofits, you know, we would 

like to include in the legislation. We are working on some of the 

ESPC issues in terms of the cost. The CBO scoring now helps us, 

the nonprofits. 

I appreciate the fact that Senators have been willing to work on 

lowering some of the costs there and being sure we have offsets 

that we can defend as we do with the other offsets because the legislation does not have a cost. It does not have mandates, and that’s 

one of the reasons we’ve been able to get these big votes and get 

it to the Floor a couple times. So, again, I really appreciate the 

support of that legislation. 

The legislation, we now have almost 300 groups and trade associations supporting it. I was glad when Senator Cantwell, who has 

been a great supporter of energy efficiency, asked Dr. Gayer whether he supported it or not because I was not sure. When you said, 

yes, I was like, okay, now I know everybody on this panel supports 

it. [Laughter.] 

But—— 

Senator CANTWELL. It is a love fest today. 

Senator PORTMAN. Yeah, but thank you for asking him because 

I did not have the guts to do it. [Laughter.] 

But ACEEE, Steve, you guys have been unbelievable in providing 

data around this because it is easy to talk about this in general 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
123 

terms. It is harder to get specificity, and that has been very helpful. 

And NASEO, Gene, you guys have been at this for four years 

now, supporting the legislation. I know you would like to see even 

more in some areas, and some of the stuff you are doing in the 

state that you just talked to Senator Murkowski about is very exciting. 

We appreciate that, and we are going to need all the support we 

can get. It is not easy to get things done around this place, but if 

you have that kind of momentum, I think it can really work. 

Tony, thank you for coming back again. You are a glutton for 

punishment getting into this issue. I know it is not always easy, 

but you have been a great partner for us. As you said, we brought 

you in as a stakeholder, and you improved the legislation. We 

made some major changes to the legislation based on your input. 

I appreciate your strong support of the SAVE Act. I think that has 

helped the legislation, not just gain support, but actually have a 

bigger impact in terms of 40 percent of our energy going into buildings and this notion that Steve and Ted have talked about in terms 

of the homeowner and how do you make this not a mandate, but 

makes this an incentive to be able to do the right thing. And incentives are certainly out there. 

To Dr. Hogan, you guys supported S. 270 last Congress. I appreciate your looking at the legislation again. You will like it even 

more, trust me. Just say yes. No. [Laughter.] 

But really, you guys have been terrific partners in this, and we 

have made some changes, as you know, based on some of the 

things that you want to do administratively. I do think it is fair 

to say and you tell me, but that we are trying to codify some things 

you would otherwise like to do in terms of coordination and streamlining. Is that accurate? 

Dr. HOGAN. The devil is in the details, but I think, yes, that’s accurate. 

Senator PORTMAN. Yeah. I mean we did talk earlier about the 

fact that there is a need for more coordination and of some of your 

programs and the advanced manufacturing provisions, for instance, 

I think you all support because of that. So we will continue to work 

with you, of course, on that. 

Today we do have this one bill, 535, that is being signed into law. 

Again, Tony, thank you for your support of that legislation. It does 

help in the Tenant Star program, and I think has great potential 

in the commercial building side. 

The one question I guess I would have for Mr. Nadel in terms 

of the analysis of the impact of this bill. You mentioned 190,000 

jobs. Can you tell us how you got to that estimate of the legislation 

and maybe tell us a little more how we should describe that? 

Mr. NADEL. Okay. 

Yes, that’s—our analysis of the 2013 legislation with some adjustments. We are planning as soon as this Committee marks up 

their bills, to do an updated analysis on all of these bills so they 

will be probably some changes. 

But in terms of the jobs, we do, we have a detailed input/output 

analysis model of the U.S. economy. So we look at what the costs 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
124 

are at each of the sectors, what the benefits are of each sector and 

how that works through in terms of the overall economy. 

Our estimate is net jobs, meaning how much do you—jobs are 

created as a result of the savings, but minus the fact that if you 

use a little less energy, you are costing some jobs. So those are net 

jobs, and we feel very importantly that you really have to look at 

it in a net basis. Some of the studies just look at one side and forget the other side, but it is a detailed model of the U.S. economy 

and detailed analysis of each provision in terms of how much it will 

save in cost each year. 

Senator PORTMAN. Great. Well, we would appreciate the additional analysis based on whatever new legislation there is and specifically giving us all the background so we can describe better to 

our colleagues, frankly, why this is not just about fewer emissions 

and helping in terms of the energy side. It is actually a jobs bill, 

and it will create more activity. 

The one thing I think your analysis does not fully appreciate and 

can’t easily do is just the impact on competitiveness. I hear this in 

Ohio constantly, that these companies are competing with companies in Japan and Germany and elsewhere that, for years, have focused more on efficiency because they have had higher energy 

prices, frankly. 

Now we have the opportunity to be able to provide some technologies that we enable them in part through the DOE to work 

with a competitive advantage. 

So again, thank you, Madam Chair, I really appreciate it. 

I will repeat what Senator Shaheen said, we really want to mark 

up our bill again, and we have done it twice. It is gotten to the 

Floor twice. We know that we have the formula. We have these 300 

groups behind us. We want to include whatever good legislative 

ideas there are, but we also want to keep this as a bipartisan 

measure and one where we can find common ground. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Portman. 

Senator Franken. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

I agree, Mr. Nadel, your data is very, very appreciated. How 

much, again, would the energy efficiency resource standards help 

save in regard to taking, say, cars off the road in relation to the 

previous Shaheen/Portman or the Shaheen/Portman as it existed 

before? 

Mr. NADEL. Alright. Just to reiterate as I said before we very 

much support Shaheen/Portman. 

Senator FRANKEN. Yes. 

Mr. NADEL. And we’d like to take Shaheen/Portman and add to 

it the savings from the EERS bill. But the savings from the EERS 

bill are about three times. I have not checked the car calculations 

right here. 

Senator FRANKEN. Okay. 

Mr. NADEL. But it is, I would add about three times. 

Senator FRANKEN. I was just trying to make a point. 

Benchmarking is essential for improving energy efficiency in our 

buildings unless we really know how much energy their buildings 

are using we cannot be sure how much energy will be saved from 

using energy efficiency technologies. 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
125 

I am proud that my benchmarking bill was included in the Energy Efficiency Improvement Act which the President is signing 

later today. That bill will require commercial buildings that are 

leased by the Federal Government to benchmark and disclose their 

energy use, and this energy data will help the Federal Government 

identify the most cost effective ways to reduce its energy use. 

But today I want to talk about a new bill which you mentioned, 

S. 1052, which would support policies and incentives at the state 

level to encourage more commercial buildings to participate in 

benchmarking programs. We have adopted this in Minneapolis. 

Some other cities around the country have already started commercial building benchmarking programs. Mr. Nadel, can you talk 

about how well these programs are working? 

Mr. NADEL. Yes, these programs are working very well. There’s 

about a dozen cities that are making data available to building 

owners so they can identify their worst performing buildings and 

target their efforts. In many of the cities they make the data available so energy performance contractors can see which are the less 

efficient buildings and target them for marketing. 

There’s also useful data for would be purchasers or renters so 

that they know what the energy bills may be because to over generalize on average, you know, the mortgage cost is typically the 

number one cost. But energy costs are right up there with taxes as 

number two, varying very much from building to building jurisdiction to jurisdiction. So this would help. 

I would point out that the bill that is being signed today in addition to Federal buildings also has Department of Energy conducting a study on benchmarking disclosure best practices. So that 

will provide some very useful information to other cities. Atlanta 

and Portland, Oregon just in the last two weeks have adopted similar laws but hopefully this will be useful for others. 

What I like about your new bill is it includes two additional provisions. One of which was also in Shaheen/Portman but got left out 

by the House, the other of which is new, the one that has small 

matching grants available to utilities and utility regulators to figure out ways to better aggregate energy use data so that a building 

owner can get the full energy use of the building. Now they can get 

the energy use on their meters, but they have no idea how much 

is used by the tenants. Aggregation allows the utilities to combine 

them all together, protecting privacy, but you get the total of your 

hundred apartments or your eight different tenants. That would 

help. 

Senator FRANKEN. I just want to move on. You mentioned 

ESCOs, and we were talking and Mr. Therriault talked about 

PACE. 

All of these different financing models that are really, I think, 

just revolutionalizing the way we do this because that way you can 

finance. Because we were talking about upfront costs, well if you 

can get an ESCO to do an energy service performance contract you 

can, we can, do this without an upfront cost, right? That is the 

whole point of this. 

I am running out of time, but I want to tout my ESPCs for alternative vehicles, and can I take a few seconds on this? 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
126 

Assistant Secretary Hogan, can you talk about some of the efforts 

in your office to develop and deploy more efficient vehicles and how 

much energy savings you think are possible with alternative vehicles? The reason I am bringing this up is what my bill would do 

is allow the government to buy fleets of new, energy efficient vehicles using energy service performance contracts. 

Dr. HOGAN. Yeah, certainly we have got a number of goals that 

we are trying to achieve in the Federal sector to improve the efficiency of our Federal fleets in addition to the work we are doing 

with buildings and facilities. We do have challenges with the mechanisms that we have in the Federal fleet’s world, so I think being 

able to explore new mechanisms that can allow us to look at those 

and more and bring in more efficient vehicles and get the financing 

as help to do that would be a great thing to examine. 

Senator FRANKEN. Because vehicles and equipment account for 

over 60 percent of the Federal Government’s energy use and over 

70 percent of its energy expenditures. So if we could do this, this 

would be a great way of cutting energy costs for the government. 

Thank you. Thank you for this hearing and for all your support 

for energy efficiency both to the Chair and the Ranking Member. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Franken, Senator Cantwell, 

and all the members who have clearly not only engaged today but 

have been engaging for a long period of time. 

I think we have a great deal of common ground here that we can 

explore as we move forward in this first title of our energy bill. But 

some of the priorities that have been placed in front of us, not only 

with the legislation that is under consideration, but just some of 

the good work that has been in place in our states as those laboratories or has been suggested. And working through individuals 

with really great ideas about how we can really make a difference 

when it comes to providing for a level of efficiency that is common 

sense that people want to participate in, that helps with jobs, it 

helps with the economy, it helps with the environment. 

As I say, it is all good when it comes to our energy, and energy 

efficiency is that first energy source that we need to be looking to 

for a level of common sense. 

So thank you for your respective leadership in different areas 

here, and know that we will be looking to you for further comments 

as we build out these titles. 

And with that, we stand adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:26 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.] 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARING
127 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 133 here 95273A.001
128 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 134 here 95273A.002
129 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 135 here 95273A.003
130 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 136 here 95273A.004
131 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 137 here 95273A.005
132 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 138 here 95273A.006
133 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 139 here 95273A.007
134 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 140 here 95273A.008
135 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 141 here 95273A.009
136 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 142 here 95273A.010
137 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 143 here 95273A.011
138 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 144 here 95273A.012
139 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 145 here 95273A.013
140 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 146 here 95273A.014
141 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 147 here 95273A.015
142 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 148 here 95273A.016
143 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 149 here 95273A.017
144 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 150 here 95273A.018
145 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 151 here 95273A.019
146 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 152 here 95273A.020
147 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 153 here 95273A.021
148 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 154 here 95273A.022
149 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 155 here 95273A.023
150 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 156 here 95273A.024
151 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 157 here 95273A.025
152 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 158 here 95273A.026
153 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 159 here 95273A.027
154 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 160 here 95273A.028
155 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 161 here 95273A.029
156 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 163 here 95273A.031
157 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 164 here 95273A.032
158 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 165 here 95273A.033
159 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 166 here 95273A.034
160 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 167 here 95273A.035
161 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 168 here 95273A.036
162 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 169 here 95273A.037
163 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 170 here 95273A.038
164 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 171 here 95273A.039
165 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 172 here 95273A.040
166 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 173 here 95273A.041
167 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 174 here 95273A.042
168 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 175 here 95273A.043
169 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 176 here 95273A.044
170 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 177 here 95273A.045
171 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 178 here 95273A.046
172 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 179 here 95273A.047
173 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 180 here 95273A.048
174 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 181 here 95273A.049
175 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 182 here 95273A.050
176 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 183 here 95273A.051
177 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 184 here 95273A.052
178 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 185 here 95273A.053
179 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 186 here 95273A.054
180 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 187 here 95273A.055
181 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 188 here 95273A.056
182 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 189 here 95273A.057
183 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 190 here 95273A.058
184 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 191 here 95273A.059
185 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 192 here 95273A.060
186 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 193 here 95273A.061
187 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 194 here 95273A.062
188 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 195 here 95273A.063
189 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 196 here 95273A.064
190 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 197 here 95273A.065
191 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 198 here 95273A.066
192 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 199 here 95273A.067
193 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 200 here 95273A.068
194 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 201 here 95273A.069
195 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 202 here 95273A.070
196 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 203 here 95273A.071
197 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 204 here 95273A.072
198 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 205 here 95273A.073
199 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 206 here 95273A.074
200 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 207 here 95273A.075
201 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 208 here 95273A.076
202 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 209 here 95273A.077
203 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 210 here 95273A.078
204 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 211 here 95273A.079
205 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 212 here 95273A.080
206 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 213 here 95273A.081
207 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 214 here 95273A.082
208 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 215 here 95273A.083
209 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 216 here 95273A.084
210 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 217 here 95273A.085
211 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 218 here 95273A.086
212 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 219 here 95273A.087
213 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 220 here 95273A.088
214 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 221 here 95273A.089
215 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 222 here 95273A.090
216 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 223 here 95273A.091
217 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 224 here 95273A.092
218 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 225 here 95273A.093
219 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 226 here 95273A.094
220 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 227 here 95273A.095
221 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 228 here 95273A.096
222 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 229 here 95273A.097
223 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 230 here 95273A.098
224 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 231 here 95273A.099
225 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 232 here 95273A.100
226 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 233 here 95273A.101
227 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 234 here 95273A.102
228 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 235 here 95273A.103
229 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 236 here 95273A.104
230 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 237 here 95273A.105
231 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 238 here 95273A.106
232 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 239 here 95273A.107
233 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 240 here 95273A.108
234 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 241 here 95273A.109
235 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 242 here 95273A.110
236 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 243 here 95273A.111
237 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 244 here 95273A.112
238 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 245 here 95273A.113
239 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 246 here 95273A.114
240 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 247 here 95273A.115
241 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 248 here 95273A.116
242 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 249 here 95273A.117
243 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 250 here 95273A.118
244 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 251 here 95273A.119
245 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 252 here 95273A.120
246 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 253 here 95273A.121
247 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 254 here 95273A.122
248 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 255 here 95273A.123
249 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 256 here 95273A.124
250 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 257 here 95273A.125
251 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 258 here 95273A.126
252 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 259 here 95273A.127
253 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 260 here 95273A.128
254 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 261 here 95273A.129
255 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 262 here 95273A.130
256 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 263 here 95273A.131
257 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 264 here 95273A.132
258 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 265 here 95273A.133
259 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 266 here 95273A.134
260 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 267 here 95273A.135
261 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 268 here 95273A.136
262 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 269 here 95273A.137
263 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 270 here 95273A.138
264 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 271 here 95273A.139
265 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 272 here 95273A.140
266 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 273 here 95273A.141
267 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 274 here 95273A.142
268 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 275 here 95273A.143
269 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 276 here 95273A.144
270 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 277 here 95273A.145
271 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 278 here 95273A.146
272 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 279 here 95273A.147
273 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 280 here 95273A.148
274 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 281 here 95273A.149
275 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 282 here 95273A.150
276 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 283 here 95273A.151
277 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 284 here 95273A.152
278 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 285 here 95273A.153
279 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 286 here 95273A.154
280 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 287 here 95273A.155
281 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 288 here 95273A.156
282 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 289 here 95273A.157
283 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 290 here 95273A.158
284 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 291 here 95273A.159
285 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 292 here 95273A.160
286 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 293 here 95273A.161
287 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 294 here 95273A.162
288 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 295 here 95273A.163
289 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 296 here 95273A.164
290 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 297 here 95273A.165
291 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 298 here 95273A.166
292 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 299 here 95273A.167
293 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 300 here 95273A.168
294 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 301 here 95273A.169
295 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 302 here 95273A.170
296 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 303 here 95273A.171
297 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 304 here 95273A.172
298 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 305 here 95273A.173
299 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 306 here 95273A.174
300 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 307 here 95273A.175
301 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 308 here 95273A.176
302 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 309 here 95273A.177
303 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 310 here 95273A.178
304 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 311 here 95273A.179
305 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 312 here 95273A.180
306 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 313 here 95273A.181
307 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 314 here 95273A.182
308 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 315 here 95273A.183
309 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 316 here 95273A.184
310 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 317 here 95273A.185
311 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 318 here 95273A.186
312 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 319 here 95273A.187
313 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 320 here 95273A.188
314 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 321 here 95273A.189
315 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 322 here 95273A.190
316 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 323 here 95273A.191
317 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 324 here 95273A.192
318 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 325 here 95273A.193
319 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 326 here 95273A.194
320 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 327 here 95273A.195
321 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 328 here 95273A.196
322 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 329 here 95273A.197
323 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 330 here 95273A.198
324 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 331 here 95273A.199
325 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 332 here 95273A.200
326 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 333 here 95273A.201
327 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 334 here 95273A.202
328 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 335 here 95273A.203
329 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 336 here 95273A.204
330 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 337 here 95273A.205
331 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 338 here 95273A.206
332 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 339 here 95273A.207
333 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 340 here 95273A.208
334 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 341 here 95273A.209
335 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 342 here 95273A.210
336 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 343 here 95273A.211
337 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 344 here 95273A.212
338 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 345 here 95273A.213
339 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 346 here 95273A.214
340 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 347 here 95273A.215
341 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 348 here 95273A.216
342 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 349 here 95273A.217
343 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 350 here 95273A.218
344 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 351 here 95273A.219
345 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 352 here 95273A.220
346 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 353 here 95273A.221
347 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 354 here 95273A.222
348 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 355 here 95273A.223
349 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 356 here 95273A.224
350 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 357 here 95273A.225
351 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 358 here 95273A.226
352 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 359 here 95273A.227
353 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 360 here 95273A.228
354 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 361 here 95273A.229
355 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 362 here 95273A.230
356 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 363 here 95273A.231
357 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 364 here 95273A.232
358 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 365 here 95273A.233
359 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 366 here 95273A.234
360 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 367 here 95273A.235
361 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 368 here 95273A.236
362 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 369 here 95273A.237
363 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 370 here 95273A.238
364 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 371 here 95273A.239
365 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 372 here 95273A.240
366 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 373 here 95273A.241
367 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 375 here 95273A.243
368 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 376 here 95273A.244
369 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 377 here 95273A.245
370 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 378 here 95273A.246
371 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 379 here 95273A.247
372 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 380 here 95273A.248
373 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 381 here 95273A.249
374 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 382 here 95273A.250
375 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 383 here 95273A.251
376 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 384 here 95273A.252
377 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 385 here 95273A.253
378 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 386 here 95273A.254
379 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 387 here 95273A.255
380 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 388 here 95273A.256
381 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 389 here 95273A.257
382 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 390 here 95273A.258
383 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 391 here 95273A.259
384 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 392 here 95273A.260
385 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 393 here 95273A.261
386 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 394 here 95273A.262
387 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 395 here 95273A.263
388 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 396 here 95273A.264
389 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 397 here 95273A.265
390 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 398 here 95273A.266
391 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 399 here 95273A.267
392 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 400 here 95273A.268
393 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 401 here 95273A.269
394 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 402 here 95273A.270
395 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 403 here 95273A.271
396 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 404 here 95273A.272
397 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 405 here 95273A.273
398 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 406 here 95273A.274
399 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 407 here 95273A.275
400 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 408 here 95273A.276
401 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 409 here 95273A.277
402 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 410 here 95273A.278
403 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 411 here 95273A.279
404 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 412 here 95273A.280
405 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 413 here 95273A.281
406 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 414 here 95273A.282
407 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 415 here 95273A.283
408 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 416 here 95273A.284
409 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 417 here 95273A.285
410 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 418 here 95273A.286
411 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 419 here 95273A.287
412 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 420 here 95273A.288
413 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 421 here 95273A.289
414 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 422 here 95273A.290
415 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 423 here 95273A.291
416 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 424 here 95273A.292
417 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 425 here 95273A.293
418 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 426 here 95273A.294
419 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 427 here 95273A.295
420 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 428 here 95273A.296
421 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 429 here 95273A.297
422 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 430 here 95273A.298
423 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 431 here 95273A.299
424 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 432 here 95273A.300
425 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 433 here 95273A.301
426 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 434 here 95273A.302
427 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 435 here 95273A.303
428 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 436 here 95273A.304
429 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 437 here 95273A.305
430 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 438 here 95273A.306
431 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 439 here 95273A.307
432 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 440 here 95273A.308
433 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 441 here 95273A.309
434 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 442 here 95273A.310
435 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 444 here 95273A.312
436 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 445 here 95273A.313
437 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 446 here 95273A.314
438 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 447 here 95273A.315
439 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 448 here 95273A.316
440 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 449 here 95273A.317
441 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 450 here 95273A.318
442 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 451 here 95273A.319
443 


asabaliauskas on DSK9F6TC42PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 452 here 95273A.320