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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

+ + + + +

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE

(ASRAC)

+ + + + +

MEETING

+ + + +

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 2013

The ASRAC convened in Room 8E-089, 

U.S. Department of Energy, 1000 Independence 

Avenue, SW, Washington, D.C., at 10:00 a.m., 

Doug Brookman, moderator, presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT

ANDREW deLASKI, Appliance Standards 

Awareness Project, Co-Chair

JOHN MANDYCK, UTC Climate, Controls & 

Security, Co-Chair

DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions, Inc., 

Moderator

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Team Lead for Test 

Procedures and Certification and 

Enforcement, Department of Energy

JOHN F. CASKEY, National Electrical 

Manufacturers Association

TIMOTHY CASSIDY, Best Buy

STEVEN COUSINS, Coca-Cola Company

THOMAS COUGHLIN, National Grid

TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation 

Council

DAVID HUNGERFORD, California Energy 

Commission

KELLEY KLINE, General Electric

KENT PETERSON, P2S Engineering
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PRESENT FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

DANIEL COHEN, General Counsel

JOHN CYMBALSKY, Designated Federal Official, 

Department of Energy

ROLAND RISSER, Department of Energy

ALSO PRESENT

KARIM AMRANE, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 

Refrigeration Institute 

NORMAN ASBJORNSON, AAON

ROBERT ASDAL, Hydraulic Institute

BILL BELT, Consumer Electronics Association

ALEX BOSENBURG, NEMA

DONALD BRUNDAGE, Southern Company

DAVID CALABRESE, Air-Conditioning, Heating, 

and Refrigeration Institute

KEITH DENNIS, National Rural Electric 

Cooperative Association

JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand

HOLLY EVANS, Strategic Counsel

GARY FERNSTRAM, PG&E

DEREK GREENAUER, Underwriters Laboratories

MARK HANDZEL, Xylem

CHARLES HON, True

ALBERT HUBER, Patterson

MICHAEL IVANOVICH, Air Movement and Control 

Association International

GARY LANGILLE, Echostar

KEVIN MESSNER, AHAM

KAREN MEYERS, Rheem

ANDREW MOORE, Mitsubishi Electric

NATHAN MOUW, Whirlpool 

ELIZABETH NOLL, American Gas Association

GREG ORLOFF, CSA Group

TRAVIS PURKINS, Whirlpool

JENNIFER REED, Illinois Tool Works, Inc. 

MICHAEL RIVEST, Navigant

STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute

STEPHEN SCHAEFER, Hoshizaki America, Inc.

RON SHEBIK, Ingersoll Rand

MARK STANGA, Daikin
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ALSO PRESENT: (cont.)

ELIZABETH TATE, American Public Gas 

Association

RUSTY THARP, Goodman Manufacturing Company, 

L.P.

GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos

GARY VERDUN, Grundfos

KEVIN WASHINGTON, Illinois Tool Works, Inc.

KAY WINN, Kathleen Winn & Associates
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T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S

Welcome Remarks, Doug Brookman............. 5

Welcome Remarks, Roland Risser............. 5

Welcome Remarks, Co-chair Mandyck......... 14

Welcome Remarks, Co-chair deLaski......... 15

Brief Overview and Agenda Items........... 17

 Doug Brookman

Introductions of Members ................. 20

ASRAC Overview, John Cymbalsky............ 44

Program Overview, John Cymbalsky.......... 66

Lunch.................................... 127

Discussion of Facilitating Program

Activities - Committee members.......... 128

Next Steps............................... 311

Adjournment
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (9:59 a.m.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, 

4 everyone, and welcome. This is the first 

5 meeting of the Appliance Standards and 

6 Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee here at 

7 the U.S. Department of Energy. Today is 

8 February 26, 2013.

9 So glad you could make it here 

10 this morning. We're going to start off with 

11 welcoming remarks from Roland Risser.

12 MR. RISSER: Good morning from me 

13 as well. My name is Roland Risser and I'm the 

14 Director of the Building Technologies Office 

15 here at the Department of Energy. My 

16 responsibility includes among other things the 

17 Appliance and Equipment Standards Program.

18 First, thanks for joining us 

19 today. This is a FACA. You're going to hear 

20 more about that. I think we probably are 

21 going to have an attorney that will make sure 

22 we stay on track.
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1 But for those of you who may not 

2 be as familiar with that, I looked it up on 

3 Wikipedia. So what popped up is Federation of 

4 Anglican Churches in the Americas, Military of 

5 the Central African Republic and the Figi 

6 Cycling Association. So if you're here for 

7 any of those, you're in the wrong room.

8 (Laughter.)

9 So ours is the Federal Advisory 

10 Committee Act meeting. And the particular one 

11 -- well, first on that, you'll probably get 

12 more about this. But the part I liked about 

13 this is this is administered by GSA. And the 

14 one sentence that I liked best was, these are 

15 provisional bodies that have the advantage of 

16 being able to circumvent bureaucracy and 

17 collect a range of opinions.

18 So if you look at how the FACA was 

19 set up, you would say we didn't circumvent 

20 bureaucracy. Hopefully, from now going 

21 forward we can do some of that. That's the 

22 intent of this.
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1 Now the specific committee is the 

2 Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal 

3 Advisory Committee. I think John wisely left 

4 the F out of the acronym. And so it came out 

5 with ASRAC. That's what you're here for. 

6 You're in the right place at the right time.

7 I'm excited about this 

8 opportunity. We've steadily been improving 

9 the development of our standards program for 

10 the last three years. And this is sort of the 

11 next step in that path of improving both the 

12 open transparent process and data-driven 

13 decisionmaking. And that's really the 

14 foundation for what we're trying to do here.

15 We also believe that consensus 

16 agreement negotiated rulemakings are 

17 preferable. And the reason we set this ASRAC 

18 up is we believe this is the right way to set 

19 standards in this environment. We hope that 

20 you believe that as well.

21 Now the alternative is we have our 

22 regular regulatory process that we use. And 
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1 it actually also is public and transparent. 

2 The difference is in how the outcome gets 

3 decided.

4 In our regular process we take the 

5 data in. The interactions are a little 

6 different. We do have public meetings, but we 

7 don't interact on an iterative basis. Rather, 

8 we take in information and sort of provide 

9 information that's data-driven. And then the 

10 main communications take place in such a 

11 lovely forum as the Federal Register, where we 

12 file information and we get comments back.

13 That works. But I believe it's 

14 not as helpful, useful and communicative as 

15 this sort of process where you just get 

16 parties together, and you have communication 

17 in real time and it's iterative.

18 So I also believe that the other 

19 process that I described gets an outcome that 

20 we support based upon the data we have. But 

21 it might not be the outcome that this set of 

22 the participants would set on their own if 
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1 they were able to negotiate an outcome. I 

2 think there's a possibility that the outcome 

3 could be better taking everything into 

4 account. We do the best we can, but we only 

5 have the data we have in front of us.

6 We also need to point out that 

7 while we are supporting this consensus, 

8 negotiated rulemaking process, we learned over 

9 the last year or so that it doesn't always 

10 result in an outcome that works. And so to 

11 avoid delays and other problems we are going 

12 to make sure we continue our regular, normal 

13 process in parallel with this process so that 

14 if the consensus, negotiated rulemaking breaks 

15 down, we don't lose time because we have 

16 certain requirements for delivering these 

17 rules. And we want to make sure we stay on 

18 those.

19 The advantage to that, to this 

20 process, is you all know that if there isn't a 

21 consensus that comes out of this process 

22 there's a fallback which you may or may not 
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1 like. Hopefully, some of you will like it, 

2 but we do the best we can to get those rulings 

3 set with the data we have in front of us.

4 So we've had a lot of questions 

5 about ASRAC and who is on it. You probably 

6 know we have over 60 products that we have 

7 regulatory authority over. And there are now 

8 over two million basic models that have been 

9 certified under this program. We also have a 

10 variety of trade associations, non-profits, 

11 other parties who are interested in this 

12 holistically.

13 So you can imagine the breadth of 

14 who might want to participate. We had to make 

15 some decisions as to how to set up the 

16 steering committee. And we selected 11 

17 members of that steering committee.

18 One of the things we were looking 

19 for is a group that could be quick to get 

20 results and which also reflected the broad 

21 range of opinions that are out there in the 

22 market. And you're going to hear more about 
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1 that in a few minutes.

2 The point I want to make here is, 

3 although the steering committee is very 

4 important to what we're doing, the real work 

5 takes place in the working group meetings. 

6 That's where the individual rules or test 

7 procedures of whatever gets brought forward 

8 gets discussed. That's where we want the 

9 heaviest technical input because that's where 

10 we have to get that data-driven information in 

11 front of everyone.

12 And so those of you who are 

13 interested in this committee, this is an 

14 important committee. It guides what everyone 

15 does. But the real heavy lifting is going to 

16 take place there.

17 The way we look at the program as 

18 a whole we typically build the test procedure. 

19 That rolls into FTC labels or Energy Star 

20 ratings. And that rolls into where 

21 appropriate federal minimum energy efficiency 

22 standards.
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1 I'm going to give you a hint that 

2 I believe there's another area that we will 

3 want to look at and we're going to ask the 

4 ASRAC Committee to consider. We have 

5 authority over commercial product labeling 

6 that has never been implemented. The reason 

7 is commercial products are purchased 

8 differently than consumer products. So the 

9 whole process has to get thought of 

10 differently.

11 There's an opportunity there to 

12 drive market behaviors which could get results 

13 quicker and actually results that are good for 

14 consumers, for manufacturers, and others if we 

15 can do this right. So I throw that out as a 

16 topic. I think you're going to be discussing 

17 that as a possibility going forward.

18 I will also tell you that John and 

19 I were at the White House yesterday. And they 

20 were very interested in this topic. We were 

21 talking about multiple things that could 

22 happen in that space. And my experience with 
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1 the White House in the three short years that 

2 I've been here is you hear nothing until 

3 you're asked, where is the answer? Where is 

4 it?

5 So we've had that before where 

6 there's interest. It's sort of brews. And 

7 then we get asked, okay. Where is your 

8 deliverable? So we expect something will come 

9 back out of that. And I look forward to 

10 hearing what the folks here have to say.

11 We have a lot of interested 

12 parties here in the room. It's fairly packed. 

13 We welcome all of you. Keep in mind that 

14 this is an open meeting. We want to have 

15 anyone who wants to come in and listen to do 

16 so.

17 Thanks again for coming. I'm 

18 going to now turn this over to Doug Brookman 

19 who is going to facilitate the meeting today.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks 

21 very much. And I thought it was appropriate 

22 to recognize our co-chairs for brief welcoming 
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1 remark, Andrew deLaski and John Mandyck.

2 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, good 

3 morning. My name is John Mandyck. I'm with 

4 United Technologies. And I'm very pleased to 

5 co-chair this committee with my friend, 

6 Andrew.

7 Carrier Corporation is part of 

8 United Technologies. And through that, I've 

9 had about 20 years of experience working on 

10 energy efficiency issues primarily in the 

11 heating, ventilating and air conditioning 

12 business.

13 I think this is a great 

14 opportunity for us to make an impact on the 

15 appliance standards program. I think we're 

16 all here because we care about efficiency. 

17 And so I think it's with no irony that this 

18 group can help the Department actually act 

19 efficiently and more effectively through 

20 broader stakeholder participation, which is 

21 what our committee is all about.

22 So I look forward to everybody's 
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1 participation. I think we'll get out of this 

2 what everybody wants to put into it. I would 

3 at least as a co-chair encourage everybody to 

4 be forthright and to participate as much as 

5 you can on the issues that we'll have before 

6 us.

7 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: I'm Andrew 

8 deLaski and I'm the Executive Director of the 

9 Appliance Standards Awareness Project. And 

10 for those you who don't know, ASAP is a 

11 coalition project of efficiency proponents 

12 including environmental groups and consumer 

13 groups, representatives from state government 

14 and from utilities, a major utility.

15 We are -- I'm based on Boston. 

16 And it's a pleasure to be a part of this 

17 committee and to help to help the Department 

18 to advance negotiation. We as a coalition 

19 have had -- we're very bullish on the 

20 prospects of negotiation as a way to develop 

21 new standards and to address the needs of the 

22 program.
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1 We've had great success with 

2 negotiations over the years. In my experience 

3 and time that I've been doing the work which 

4 is about 15 years now, roughly one-third of 

5 DOE rulemakings, all the rulemakings for all 

6 new standards, have been based on negotiated 

7 outcomes. 

8 But this endeavor that we're 

9 starting on here is a new endeavor in the 

10 sense that it is now -- DOE has created this 

11 advisory committee to bring the task of 

12 negotiation within the scope of a federal 

13 advisory committee.

14 And several of us were involved in 

15 a process last year for transformers. John 

16 and I were on that committee and Tom and 

17 probably some others here in the room as well. 

18 And as John Cymbalsky said, we batted one out 

19 of three. So .333 which is not bad if we got 

20 one out of three. We'd like to have done 

21 more. But we did get one out of three, John.

22 And it was a learning experience. 
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1 I think that's one that does hold promise. I 

2 think this committee and the folks who will be 

3 involved in working groups potentially could 

4 make a big contribution to how we advance new 

5 standards for difficult topics that may 

6 otherwise be hard to advance.

7 I welcome the opportunity to be 

8 involved with the committee and to help as 

9 John said, the more we put into it the more 

10 we'll get out of it. Look forward to the 

11 work.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank 

13 you, Andrew. Thank you, John. And thank you, 

14 Roland.

15 The conduct of a federal advisory 

16 committee is different than normal rulemaking 

17 meetings. The discussion is confined to 

18 members of the committee, but though each 

19 meeting typically has a public comment 

20 segment. So there's an opportunity for 

21 anybody that wishes to do so to comment on the 

22 work of the committee.
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1 And also the Department has gone 

2 to lengths today and I think we'll continue, 

3 too, to make this an open meeting that is 

4 accessible via the web. So we welcome those 

5 individuals that have joined us via the web. 

6 And do we know about how many have joined us 

7 via the web? Twenty. So we welcome them.

8 All of you received a copy of the 

9 agenda as you walked in the room. I think 

10 immediately following this brief overview of 

11 the agenda we're going to ask each committee 

12 member to introduce him- or herself and take a 

13 couple of minutes to explain their connection 

14 to the Appliance Standards Program, discuss 

15 their expectations and what they might seek to 

16 be the achievements of the committee.

17 Following that, John Cymbalsky is 

18 going to provide a program overview. And then 

19 there's going to be a discussion period, 

20 overview of committee operations, framework 

21 and discussion with the members. We'll take a 

22 lunch right around noon today.
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1 And then following lunch we're 

2 going to be as a committee identifying initial 

3 committee efforts to best facilitate program 

4 activities. And this will be an opportunity 

5 for committee members to suggest possible 

6 ideas and to think about what the committee 

7 might be taking up looking ahead.

8 Around about 2:30 p.m. or 3:00 

9 p.m., next steps and then around about 3:00 

10 p.m. or so public comment period. We expect 

11 there will be closing and adjourning today 

12 right about 3:30 p.m. So that's the plan for 

13 today.

14 Questions and comments before we 

15 proceed?

16 (No response.)

17 So I would like to then commence 

18 and ask individual committee members to 

19 introduce themselves and say a couple of 

20 minutes about their expectations, their hopes, 

21 what they'd like to see accomplished.

22 And whoever would like to go 
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1 first. You need to turn the microphone on and 

2 off, so you can get used to it.

3 Do you want to start, David?

4 DR. HUNGERFORD: That's fine. My 

5 name is David Hungerford. I currently am 

6 working for the California Energy Commission. 

7 I've advised three commissioners in series on 

8 appliance standards rulemakings at the Energy 

9 Commission and have worked with our staff and 

10 folks at DOE to advance efficiency standards 

11 for a number of years now. In a previous 

12 incarnation of this body, the Appliance 

13 Standards Subcommittee of the ASRAC, I 

14 participated as well.

15 My interest today is for this 

16 committee in maximizing energy savings, 

17 opportunities, through creative regulatory 

18 approaches. But the flexibility that is 

19 inherent in such approaches that are fast 

20 evolving products and product markets. 

21 Have to engender accountability 

22 through transparency and a commitment to 
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1 measurable energy savings outcomes. And 

2 that's my major goal.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We'll just 

4 go in sequence. But anybody can skip if they 

5 wish.

6 Tom.

7 MR. ECKMAN: I am Tom Eckman. I'm 

8 Conservation Manager with the Northwest Power 

9 and Conservation Council. It's an interstate 

10 compact formed by the states of Oregon, 

11 Washington, Idaho and Montana to represent the 

12 governors and the constituents in those states 

13 in the Northwest electric energy planning 

14 matters. Also to take care of the fish and 

15 wildlife that were damaged by the construction 

16 of the hydro projects along the Columbia and 

17 Snake Rivers which is another part of our 

18 work.

19 I've been involved in energy 

20 efficiency since 1975. So I've been around a 

21 while working particularly on state codes and 

22 standards and looking at energy efficiency as 
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1 an opportunity for utility investments to meet 

2 load growth.

3 With respect to the standards 

4 process, I've been involved in several of the 

5 negotiated rulemakings that have been taking 

6 place over the years primarily informally, not 

7 necessarily headed up by DOE but involved with 

8 DOE. And found those to be a much more 

9 satisfactory way of getting to consensus on 

10 how to move the standards forward than the 

11 regulatory process itself. You can't get 

12 creative solutions very well out of that 

13 process.

14 I think that's what I'm looking 

15 for here is the way that we can get agreement 

16 on creative solutions that would advance 

17 sufficiency and maintain the product 

18 competitiveness that we'd all like.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

20 Steven.

21 MR. COUSINS: My name is Steve 

22 Cousins. I'm the Director of Immediate 
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1 Consumption Equipment Governance with the 

2 Coca-Cola Company. When I say Immediate 

3 Consumption Equipment Governance, what I'm 

4 referring to is that Coca-Cola Company for the 

5 most part, we don't build appliances. We buy 

6 appliances. And my organization actually 

7 establishes and maintains the standards that 

8 the Coca-Cola Company has for its appliances 

9 and the approval programs and immediate 

10 consumption, because a majority of the 

11 beverages that we sell globally is for 

12 immediate consumption and to be consumed 

13 immediately. And we'd like our products to be 

14 consumed cold. So we're very much concerned 

15 about commercial refrigeration.

16 We have about 14 million 

17 commercial refrigeration items placed around 

18 the world. I mean vending machines, 

19 commercial refrigerators, merchandisers, 

20 fountain dispensers, things of that nature. 

21 Slightly more than three million here in the 

22 United States.
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1 And the Coca-Cola Company has been 

2 very concerned about responsible standards 

3 regarding energy, the equipment that we 

4 purchase. Actually, the Coca-Cola 

5 contribution to global warning, our carbon

6 footprint, the largest piece actually is our 

7 appliances. It's not our manufacturing sites, 

8 our bottling operations or our fleet. It's 

9 actually our refrigerators, our vending 

10 machines, our fountain dispensers that consume 

11 the most energy in our system. So we're very 

12 much concerned about purchasing and placing 

13 equipment that's going to be efficient.

14 What I'd like -- a role I'd like 

15 to play in this committee is to bring to the 

16 attention or advise on implications of 

17 standards as it impacts desires of other 

18 government agencies like the EPA, for example. 

19 We've seen conflicts between what the DOE 

20 wants to do and what the EPA wants to do, 

21 particularly in the area of commercial 

22 refrigerants or refrigerants used in our 
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1 equipment.

2 And at the same time since Coca3 Cola is a global company, we're very much in 

4 tune to standards internationally. And we'd 

5 like to see responsible standards in the U.S. 

6 mesh or work in tandem with what's happening 

7 in Europe and Latin America and other 

8 geographies. I'm glad to be a part.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

10 John.

11 MR. CASKEY: I'm just glad when I 

12 have the choice in the vending machine that I 

13 pick the right product out of the vending 

14 machine which is a bottle of Coca-Cola. So 

15 thank you for that.

16 My name is John Caskey. I'm the 

17 Assistant Vice President of Industry 

18 Operations for the National Electrical 

19 Manufacturers Association. I've worked for 

20 them for seven years.

21 I've got overall probably about 35 

22 years of experience in the energy area. Prior 
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1 to working for NEMA, I worked for two 

2 different utilities, both Pacific Gas & 

3 Electric Company and Dominion Virginia Power 

4 and Dominion Energy. So I have both utility 

5 as well as some product manufacturing 

6 experience.

7 Some of the things, I did 

8 participate in the negotiated rulemaking 

9 process for distribution transformers. And 

10 that was something that interests me very 

11 much. I think that approach is a very 

12 positive approach. So I am a wholehearted 

13 supporter of the negotiated rulemaking 

14 process.

15 I think one of the things that 

16 came out of that that I think is most valuable 

17 and that's sort of related to, if you will, 

18 one of my pet peeves which is it seems like 

19 some of the modeling that's done and the 

20 analysis that's done is very difficult to 

21 duplicate or to validate. So one of the 

22 things I want to bring to the table is more 
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1 discussions dealing with how do you 

2 effectively validate some of the models that 

3 are used by Department of Energy. That's where 

4 negotiated rulemaking to me came in because we 

5 had manufacturers and utilities and others 

6 sitting around the table.

7 And they are actually very willing 

8 to share information to say, well, when I do 

9 my analysis to design a transformer I came in 

10 at X number of dollars and the modeling came 

11 in at Y number of dollars. And then we tried 

12 to figure out what caused those differences. 

13 So I think that's a very valuable outcome of 

14 the negotiated rulemaking process is that you 

15 have a face-to-face opportunity to sort of 

16 valid some of those models and make sure 

17 they're relatively in the right ball park.

18 The other things that interest me 

19 really deal with the cost-effectiveness of the 

20 final rules and to make sure that there's a 

21 balance between energy efficiency going 

22 forward and the cost to the manufacturers or 
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1 the cost to the public in all of these things.

2 So I'm certainly looking forward 

3 to participating in this. And I'm ready to 

4 get started. Thank you.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

6 MR. CASSIDY: Hi, I'm Tim Cassidy. 

7 I work for Best Buy. I work in their private 

8 label enterprise. My role at Best Buy is with 

9 compliance in general for products. We sell a 

10 lot of different kinds of products, various 

11 types of appliances, meaning things you plug 

12 in the wall.

13 I've been involved in a lot of 

14 different standards committees for things like 

15 quality standards, safety standards and energy 

16 standards. I worked with the Department of 

17 Energy before and the California Energy 

18 Commission on both plug-in-the-wall power 

19 supplies and battery chargers.

20 I hope to bring a little different 

21 perspective on supply chain especially being 

22 from a retailer than what you might see in one 
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1 of these types of committees or that I have 

2 seen before. And also to achieve a better 

3 level of collaboration around how to 

4 accomplish standards that are useful for all 

5 the parties concerned and that are within what 

6 the state of the art can truly accomplish.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

8 MR. PETERSON: I am Kent 

9 Peterson, Vice President, P2S Engineering, a 

10 consulting engineering firm out of California. 

11 Also very active in ASHRAE, the American 

12 Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air 

13 Conditioning Engineers.

14 I think if there is one goal that 

15 I have it's probably what Roland said. And 

16 don't want to add any bureaucracy to what you 

17 already have.

18 This committee really should be 

19 able if I have an outlook on the committee, 

20 it's to be able to reach consensus and help 

21 assist in the rulemaking process, so we can 

22 get some of the I guess gridlock that's really 
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1 plagued the Department maybe for the last 15 

2 years in this area on trying to get the rules 

3 updates and get some of the new rules out.

4 I am interested in flexibility. I 

5 do believe strongly in industry consensus 

6 standards. I have a lot of experience in 

7 industry consensus standards and how they 

8 might be able to help in the rulemaking.

9 Also I really believe that 

10 anything that we're doing really has to have 

11 good life-cycle cost-benefit analysis that 

12 really supports not only the manufacturers, 

13 but the endusers on where we're actually 

14 applying these standards. And certainly we 

15 have to look at it not only from a national 

16 but hopefully on an international level when 

17 it impacts manufacturers that are 

18 manufacturing internationally.

19 I look forward to working with 

20 everyone on the committee.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

22 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: So I gave my 
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1 initial introduction. Now I'll just elaborate 

2 a little bit here on some thoughts. We've 

3 talked about the experience on transformers 

4 and I also referenced some remarks said about 

5 one-third of the standards that DOE have 

6 issued have been based on negotiation.

7 And those negotiations have been 

8 private negotiations meaning that stakeholders 

9 like my organization and John or folks around 

10 this table have gotten together to develop a 

11 recommendation and submitted that to the 

12 Department. And those private negotiations 

13 have really taken -- there have been two 

14 flavors in my experience.

15 One flavor has been when we just 

16 work it out amongst ourselves and then throw 

17 it over to the Department. And then the 

18 Department before we start our rulemaking 

19 process elicits comments from everybody else 

20 in the world who wants to comment and comes up 

21 with the final rule. And that's worked pretty 

22 well.
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1 The Department in general has been 

2 able to adopt those standards. But sometimes 

3 hasn't for one reason or another. That's one

4 flavor.

5 Another flavor of these negotiated 

6 rulemakings historically has been one where 

7 the Department has been at the table to 

8 provide information and data to the 

9 negotiators. And that's also been a very 

10 constructive model. I'm thinking most 

11 recently of the discussions with AHAM that 

12 General Electric was involved with and I think 

13 Kevin from AHAM is here where the Department 

14 provided data to the process.

15 So the Department wasn't an actual 

16 negotiator, but was a support. We were able 

17 to say, would you run this iteration of the 

18 model and give us data to help inform the 

19 discussions. And the Department because it 

20 has to be public has posted that data to the 

21 website and made it available to anybody who 

22 wants to see it. That's been another model.
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1 And what we're talking about today 

2 is a new model, one where the Department is 

3 actually at the table. And I think John is 

4 going to describe this later. But what I want 

5 to emphasize is that I think that those two 

6 old models, they still work. 

7 So we right now have before the 

8 Department a recommendation for motors that 

9 our organization has worked out with NEMA and 

10 the motor manufacturers and has been submitted 

11 as a joint recommendation without the 

12 Department having been part of that 

13 negotiation process.

14 But yet it's now before the 

15 Department. The Department is working on a 

16 proposed rule which we hope will reflect the 

17 consensus that was submitted to it. Those 

18 processes in my view still remain very good 

19 processes for developing standards and ones 

20 that we should continue to explore and to 

21 develop.

22 The other process is of course the 
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1 typical rulemaking process which Roland 

2 described at the beginning, with notice and 

3 comment rulemaking, which if one-third were 

4 negotiated that means two-thirds weren't. And 

5 some of those have been contested. Some of 

6 those have been contentious. Some of them 

7 have not been contentious.

8 And that will also continue to be 

9 an important way for the development of rules. 

10 That doesn't go away.

11 What I think of this process today 

12 is that it's a new tool in the toolkit. It's 

13 another way to develop standards that perhaps 

14 are better, can be better, for a lot of 

15 reasons that the folks who have already spoken 

16 have described. Better able to vet models as 

17 John discusses. A better way to get more 

18 stakeholders around the table who might have a 

19 view that we didn't consider those who were 

20 involved in a private negotiation. As a way 

21 to make sure that what we're developing is 

22 something the Department feels it can do. 
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1 Sometimes we've done it. We've come up with a 

2 great idea only to have the Department say or 

3 to have legal counsel say, great idea, guys, 

4 but we can't do it. That I think is some of 

5 the benefits we get by getting altogether 

6 through a negotiated process where the 

7 Department is an active participant in the 

8 process.

9 When we've negotiated rulemakings 

10 on a private basis, we've often pursued a 

11 couple different paths for adopting them. One 

12 is to be able to ask the Department to do it. 

13 But many of them have been enacted through 

14 Congress. So that's been an active way for 

15 doing private negotiations that we make at the 

16 same time as we're recommending them to the 

17 Department. Put it up as a consensus 

18 recommendation to Congress. When Congress is 

19 working on energy bills, that becomes the 

20 other way. So the 2005 and 2007 Energy Bills 

21 contain a bunch of consensus amendments that 

22 were negotiated by people in this room and 
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1 others.

2 So I see a lot of pros in the 

3 Federal Advisory Committee process. I also 

4 see some cons. The main con I see is that 

5 it's time-consuming. I don't think it's going 

6 to be less time. I think it's going to more 

7 time than a typical rulemaking for the 

8 stakeholders, for all stakeholders. 

9 That was certainly our experience 

10 with transformers. We spent a lot of time on 

11 transformers over a pretty intense period of 

12 time, a pretty compact period of time. So I 

13 think it's more demanding of those who are 

14 around the table, not less demanding.

15 So I think we're looking for 

16 expectations for the process. We should 

17 expect that it will be a process for those who 

18 are involved in the working groups of an 

19 intense level of involvement through the 

20 committees.

21 So I'm very optimistic that this 

22 is another way to get good standards done, to 
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1 address nettlesome problems that are before 

2 the Department. But I think we need to keep 

3 our eyes wide open as to what the demands of 

4 it are and also keep in mind that these other 

5 mechanisms for getting standards done remain 

6 very important and continue to be advanced.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

8 John.

9 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: John Mandyck 

10 again. Just to build on my earlier comments 

11 and also to support what Andrew just said, I 

12 think I want to thank the Department for 

13 creating the committee and creating another 

14 avenue for holding discussions on complex 

15 issues.

16 Let's face it. When it comes to 

17 appliance standards, all the easy stuff has 

18 been done. So we're moving into a more and 

19 more complex area. And we've seen the 

20 limitations of the traditional notice and 

21 comment process that doesn't facilitate 

22 dialogue and help create understanding and 
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1 awareness to sort through the complexities. 

2 So I think this becomes another avenue to have 

3 that dialogue, to increase participation in 

4 the process and to break down some of the 

5 complexity to arrive at a sound outcome. 

6 That's what I look forward to with the work of 

7 this group.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

9 MR. COUGHLIN: Hi, my name is Tom 

10 Coughlin. I work for National Grid. We're a 

11 gas and electric utility serving three states, 

12 New York, Rhode Island, Massachusetts. I'm 

13 the Manager of Technical Strategy and Policy 

14 in our Energy Efficiency Group at the company.

15 And one thing that we do is we try 

16 to see where we can set our own program 

17 standards such that we're looking at devices, 

18 appliances, standard practices that are 

19 technically and economically feasible in the 

20 marketplace.

21 Our programs are not geared 

22 necessarily and entirely on energy savings, 
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1 but also how those energy savings can be 

2 sustained, things like making sure that we're 

3 kind of accelerating the adoption of building 

4 codes and appliance standards.

5 For all the reasons stated here by 

6 the past speakers, I'm excited to be here 

7 myself. And I guess my wish is that this 

8 group is a really helpful committee for the 

9 Department and that we can maybe certainly 

10 help you effect some of these appliance 

11 standards more efficiently and effectively.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

13 Kelley.

14 MS. KLINE: Hi, Kelley Kline, 

15 General Electric. I'm the Product Stewardship 

16 Program Leader for GE Appliances based in 

17 Louisville, Kentucky focusing on things like 

18 the refrigeration products we make there, 

19 laundry, water heaters, the products like 

20 that.

21 A second part of my role is as 

22 counsel to GE Home and Business Solutions 
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1 which consists of GE Appliances and Lighting. 

2 So a second piece is giving advice on various 

3 regulatory requirements, energy and others.

4 I've been involved with the 

5 standards rulemaking process with many of the 

6 activities that other folks around the table 

7 have already noted. A big supporter of the 

8 negotiated rulemaking process. We think it 

9 gives a lot of certainty, gives the ability to 

10 really work things out at a creative level and 

11 look forward to being a part of the committee 

12 to lend our support to that.

13 I guess in terms of an additional 

14 contribution I would hope to be able to make 

15 the committee, that would be from the 

16 perspective of a product manufacturer, some of 

17 the implications of the rulemaking process for 

18 manufacturers, some of the implications for 

19 really post-rule implementation and the 

20 realities of complying one with the standards 

21 and laws once they're implemented. So I hope 

22 to be able to bring that perspective as well.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

2 MS. KLINE: Thank you.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am Ashley 

4 Armstrong. I'm the DOE Representative on the 

5 committee. I think Roland laid out the 

6 overall goals of the DOE for this committee, 

7 but I look forward to working with everyone. 

8 Right now at the Department I work 

9 on a lot of the test procedure issues and some 

10 of the certification, compliance and testing 

11 issues facing the Department. But I'm hoping 

12 the committee will come to the table with open 

13 minds and try to come up with creative 

14 solutions to some of the more complex issues 

15 facing us in the next couple of years.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to --

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Hi, I'm John 

18 Cymbalsky. I am the Designated Federal 

19 Officer for ASRAC. So I actually don't vote 

20 in the committee, which is probably a good 

21 thing for all of you here. I'm the Program 

22 Manager for Appliance Standards and Building 
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1 Codes under Roland's leadership.

2 Just a few other things to add 

3 that we haven't talked about yet. The 

4 Department through its standards program and 

5 lots of other programs that we run, a big part 

6 of what we're interested in is U.S. 

7 manufacturing. So whatever we do here, rest 

8 assured that one of the key goals for the 

9 Department is to promote U.S. manufacturing. 

10 And I'm glad we have GE here at 

11 the table. We've heard recently on GE 

12 bringing back manufacturing to the U.S. And I 

13 think that's something all of us should be 

14 supportive of and proud of. And I think this 

15 program in particular goes out of its way to 

16 make sure that U.S. manufacturing can prosper 

17 under our regulatory regime.

18 Again, I'll just echo what 

19 everyone has been saying. I think this 

20 committee was formed with a number of people 

21 in mind such that we can move nimbly; we can 

22 react quickly and get to solutions that 
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1 everybody can be happy with in this program.

2 We talked a lot about standards. 

3 But as Roland said, there are other issues 

4 that relate to this program like commercial 

5 labeling is one. But there are others, just 

6 not negotiated rulemaking.

7 So I hope everyone here keeps an 

8 open mind on what different topics we might 

9 form working groups to address. And again 

10 they don't all have to be rulemaking-related. 

11 They can be anything that impacts the 

12 program.

13 Again, I look forward to working 

14 with everybody. And I guess as DFO I get all 

15 the complaint letters and things. Keep them 

16 coming. I've got a file full of them. And 

17 we'll continue to read them. Thank you.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

19 Do you wish to add anything more? 

20 (No response.)

21 No. Okay.

22 So thanks to all of you for 
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1 introducing yourselves. And we all have great 

2 hopes for the Advisory Committee.

3 Next on the agenda, we're going to 

4 have a program overview from John Cymbalsky. 

5 And you're going to drive those 

6 or, John, you're going to up there.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm going to break 

8 with regular tradition and sit at the table 

9 since there are just eleven of us here.

10 I think Doug said we're going to 

11 give an overview of the program. I think we 

12 switched the order. We're going to do an 

13 overview of ASRAC first. So lay out some 

14 ground rules as we see them. And then after 

15 this we'll then go into the Appliance 

16 Standards Program Overview.

17 With that, let's see. Hopefully, I 

18 hit the right button here. This is always a 

19 challenge. Okay. Got it right the first 

20 time.

21 As has been stated already, ASRAC 

22 is an advisory committee that the Department 
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1 has chartered. All the committee members you 

2 see around the table were appointed by DOE and 

3 specifically by the Secretary of Energy. I 

4 know some of you have been chomping at the bit 

5 for this to actually kick off.

6 I know it's been a little bit of 

7 time since we've put out the Federal Register 

8 notice way back in March. But there still is 

9 a bureaucracy. We're going to try to cut 

10 through some red tape. But we do have to 

11 follow certain procedures.

12 But be that as it may, we have 11 

13 of us now at the table. Each of you have 

14 different term limits that are associated with 

15 your term here on ASRAC. Some have one. Some 

16 have two. Some have three years of term. 

17 They can be reappointed once.

18 For those of you in the audience 

19 or maybe on the webinar I know we've had over 

20 40 nominations to this. And again we picked

21 11. So that leaves a bunch of people still 

22 out there I know who have big interest in 
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1 joining this committee at some point.

2 And just rest assured that we will 

3 be chartering lots of working groups where 

4 your participation will be needed. And we 

5 also will have room. Again as appointments 

6 turn over here on the committee, we will seek 

7 nominations over time.

8 ASRAC is solely advisory in 

9 nature. So this is not a committee that says 

10 the Department shall do X and the Department 

11 shall do Y. It's an advisory committee.

12 The committee tasks will originate 

13 from those around this table and with DOE 

14 involvement. When we initiate working groups, 

15 there will be distinct time frames that we 

16 would hope the working groups can work under 

17 with distinct outcomes as we go forward.

18 Okay. More about the working 

19 groups. We had a call a couple of weeks ago, 

20 myself, Ashley and the two co-chairs, and we 

21 kicked around some ideas that we think sounded 

22 good. And we're going to share them all 
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1 later. And, of course, everyone else at the 

2 table obviously will hopefully have some good 

3 ideas as well.

4 But we will vote on what working 

5 groups to commission. I think the first thing 

6 we're going to do is decide what we mean by 

7 consensus. And I spoke to John and Andrew 

8 before. 

9 In our transformer working group, 

10 we voted on what consensus meant. And so we 

11 need to define that first before we do any 

12 voting of any kind. So we'll do that in a 

13 bit.

14 The thing to recognize here is 

15 that DOE may withdraw tasks from ASRAC at any 

16 time. Again, this is an advisory committee. 

17 It doesn't actually drive the boat. DOE still 

18 drives the boat. But again this committee 

19 advises us on that.

20 In the event that a consensus 

21 recommendation is not reached, ASRAC will then 

22 tell the Department that it could not reach a 
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1 consensus. Then the task will be withdrawn 

2 and DOE will proceed with its normal operating 

3 procedure based on whatever the task was.

4 Scope of activities. We want to 

5 keep this as broad as possible. As I said 

6 before, let's think a little outside the box 

7 in terms of not just rulemakings but what any 

8 other types of things DOE has legal 

9 responsibility for under its statutory 

10 requirements.

11 Obviously, the efficiency 

12 standards are one of the biggest ones and most 

13 contentious as we would expect. So I think 

14 we'll focus there obviously.

15 But again test procedures, I know 

16 we talked about how complex things are 

17 becoming on the standards side. Well, the 

18 test procedures are for me, who I'm not an 

19 engineer and I don't pretend to know anything 

20 about physics or how things work, the test 

21 procedures are to me very, very confusing. I 

22 probably won't read one. But I know that 
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1 they're very difficult and that could be 

2 another area to have discussion around, how 

3 test procedures work.

4 More and more we find that 

5 products become more complicated to test. And 

6 so we have a test procedure waiver process. 

7 So there are lots of areas there to look into.

8 New product coverage. This group 

9 could come up with different products that may 

10 or may not meet some of the statutory 

11 requirements to cover. But we can discuss 

12 that.

13 Certification, laboratory 

14 accreditation and testing programs. Roland 

15 mentioned labeling. Again, another big issue 

16 for us is the commercial labeling. We've yet 

17 to do one. But we do have a few active 

18 rulemakings in this base right now. We have 

19 CREs. We have WICFs. Commercial ice makers. 

20 All these things that could potentially have 

21 a label behind them.

22 And then just any issues of 
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1 concern. So again let's think broadly about 

2 this and hopefully we can reach consensus on a 

3 bunch of different items.

4 Here's the flow chart as we see 

5 things. And thanks to Jeremiah for putting 

6 this together for us. But you can see the 

7 different levels of interaction here.

8 But right at the beginning, so 

9 we're starting at the task discussion here 

10 today. And you can see there will be 

11 discussions between DOE and ASRAC. Out of 

12 that we hope to get today to step two.

13 My hope today is to have several 

14 working groups voted on and out of this 

15 committee for us to move forward informing 

16 those working groups, at which point, we will 

17 put out Federal Register notice to seek 

18 nominations for each of the working groups. 

19 And again that will take a little process to 

20 do that.

21 The working groups each could have 

22 up to 25 members. This committee will set the 
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1 guidelines for the working groups. Again, 

2 time line, expected outcomes, that kind of 

3 thing.

4 As they go along, the working 

5 groups will brief this committee. We don't 

6 necessarily always have to meet in person like 

7 this. We can do it over the phone. We can 

8 have conference calls, cut down on travel. 

9 Webinars. Anything that works that's more 

10 efficient.

11 Then at the end of the day for the 

12 working groups, they will bring a 

13 recommendation, hopefully, to this committee. 

14 And this committee votes whether or not to 

15 accept that working group's recommendation. 

16 If this committee does at which time they will 

17 present it to the Department.

18 So for transformers that's exactly 

19 how it worked. We got one out of three for 

20 the transformers. So the recommendation was 

21 brought to ERAC at the time and ERAC said, 

22 okay. We'll take your recommendation.
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1 They presented it to the 

2 Department. And the Department adopted that 

3 into its proposed rule.

4 Okay. Tasking Discussion. So 

5 today we're going to I think after lunch talk 

6 about this. And we'll as a group talk about 

7 different areas for us to have working groups 

8 formed. We will vote on each one. We will 

9 also give some time lines for completion of 

10 the tasks.

11 An important part of the working 

12 group thing and I think Andrew hit the nail on 

13 the head here is that the working group, we're 

14 going to call it working group for a reason 

15 because you're going to work. It's not 

16 sitting around and thinking and talking.

17 For transformers, it was a lot of 

18 work for everyone on that committee. Multi19 day meetings where it was pretty intense. But 

20 again at the end of the day for us putting in 

21 more work, I think you get a better outcome at 

22 the end of the day.
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1 But I don't want to say that it 

2 will be easy. But what we're going to have to 

3 do is have at least one member from this 

4 committee on each working group as a 

5 requirement. So there are 11 of you. And I 

6 think we'll share the pain. And hopefully we 

7 can match up topics with backgrounds of us 

8 that are around the table.

9 And hopefully we don't have this. 

10 But in an instance where there is no 

11 volunteer, we're going to vote one. And again 

12 there's 11 votes. So there's going to be an 

13 outcome, right. So hopefully we don't go 

14 there.

15 And then, of course, there will be 

16 a DOE member on each of the working groups as 

17 well. And it's not just Ashley or me. You 

18 know we have a big pool of both engineers and 

19 attorneys that could be on the working groups.

20 Okay. So once we form the working 

21 groups, again we will solicit nominations 

22 through Federal Register notices. We'll go 
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1 through the time commitment in that notice. 

2 At which time, DOE in conjunction with ASRAC 

3 will select the members, again limited to 25 

4 members. At least one full committee 

5 representative and one DOE representative.

6 Once formed, the committee will 

7 select a chair. Each working group will 

8 select a chair. And with that, the chair will 

9 again run the meetings and that kind of thing. 

10 But DOE will be there to support all these 

11 working groups through both any federal 

12 employees and contractor support. So we're 

13 going to try to make at least the 

14 administrative part of this easier for 

15 everybody.

16 Okay. So the working groups. 

17 Just like this meeting the working group 

18 meetings will be open to the public. I think 

19 the major difference you'll see about these 

20 two sets of meetings is that the working group 

21 meeting will be very technical, very in the 

22 weeds, very detailed.
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1 What we saw with transformers and 

2 I hope to emulate with this process as well is 

3 that those that are selected for the working 

4 groups could also bring people with them that 

5 may be more technical or may be more legal or 

6 you know whatever it may be. But I guess the 

7 point here is that you could bring more people 

8 in the room and in real time you could have 

9 your really technical experts help out to get 

10 to a better solution set at the end of the 

11 day.

12 Again, just reiterating, the 

13 expectations of the working group as part of a 

14 negotiated rulemaking will be outlined very 

15 clearly. DOE and the ASRAC representative 

16 will steer these working groups into what the 

17 expectations are at the end of the day.

18 Some guidelines will have our 

19 general counsel in here to give ethics and all 

20 that. There are legal requirements to be on 

21 the working groups.

22 And then again the time commitment 
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1 is something that we realize we don't all have 

2 free time that's not infinite. So when we 

3 form these working groups, I think it's very 

4 important that we do lay out a finite amount 

5 of time for us to finish up our work. I think 

6 that's very important.

7 And for transformers we had court8 ordered deadlines looming. So that was pretty 

9 easy to set the time limit there. But 

10 hopefully we won't have the gun to our head on 

11 the products that we talk about and form 

12 groups around.

13 The deliberations. So once we get 

14 a work plan, the working groups themselves 

15 will meet as often as they deem necessary to 

16 get the job done. All the meetings will be 

17 announced in the Federal Register. All the 

18 meetings are public. We'll put them on the 

19 webinar.

20 And the working groups will 

21 operate by consensus. And consensus again 

22 this committee will vote on what consensus is. 
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1 The working groups themselves might have a 

2 different idea of what consensus is. So the 

3 first order of business is to actually define 

4 that and work from there.

5 Again, Roland mentioned in his 

6 opening remarks that if we do task working 

7 groups to do a negotiated rulemaking we should 

8 realize that the Department will continue its 

9 regular process in order to come to a Notice 

10 of Proposed Rulemaking at some point. Should 

11 the negotiations break down and no consensus 

12 is reached, DOE will go forward with its own 

13 proposal.

14 Transformers is a good example. 

15 We got one out of three. Well, we did propose 

16 rules for all three products. It's just that 

17 only one of them was the negotiated outcome. 

18 The other two were DOE's own proposals. And 

19 so that same thing holds true for anything we 

20 do here.

21 So the working group chair will 

22 present any updates on their final consensus 
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1 determination to ASRAC. The chair does not 

2 necessarily have to be the ASRAC 

3 representative. I think you can vote it to be 

4 different if you want.

5 The working group chair will 

6 present what the majority and minority views 

7 are that the working group worked under when 

8 it presents its results to the full committee. 

9 And then based on that update, ASRAC will 

10 deliberate and can decide to give additional 

11 time.

12 For example, if the working group 

13 said, hey. We were pretty close. We think we 

14 can get there. Please give us more time. 

15 That's an option that this group can decide 

16 upon.

17 They can vote to accept the 

18 working group's recommendation without change 

19 and then form that recommendation to DOE with 

20 the majority and minority views. Or they 

21 could notify DOE that no recommendation can be 

22 made on that particular task either because 
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1 they didn't reach consensus or majority 

2 consensus. And so they would recommend 

3 nothing there.

4 How can you participate? And 

5 again the theme here is that I noticed this 

6 group, we have 11. There were 40 applicants. 

7 There's going to be lots of opportunity for 

8 those of you who are still interested to 

9 participate on the working groups.

10 When you see these Federal 

11 Register notices, you'll nominate yourself. 

12 You can nominate others. But anyway I think 

13 you'll have to put in a resume and we will 

14 select working groups based on the material 

15 that is provided to us.

16 And just again remember, if you 

17 want to participate, it's going to be hard 

18 work. And the time commitment will be a bit 

19 of a lift for some of us. But again we 

20 definitely want as broad a participation as 

21 possible in all of our working groups.

22 So here's some information about 
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1 our website. There's my name with my generic 

2 email box. And the docket for this meeting. 

3 That's the overview for the ASRAC operations.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's see if there 

5 are questions at this point.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: John.

8 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: I have a couple 

9 of questions, John, just to clarify. Any 

10 recommendations that may come from ASRAC, if 

11 DOE adopts, we'll adopt as a proposed rule, 

12 correct?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's correct.

14 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: And then is 

15 there any time benefit that's gained by going 

16 through an ASRAC process? In other words, 

17 does it allow DOE to move more expeditiously 

18 than otherwise would have been the case?

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, it can. 

20 Sure. And like Andrew said though, it's not 

21 necessarily that way. But yes.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew.
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1 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: I have a couple 

2 of questions, too. In terms of the ASRAC 

3 participants' involvement in the working 

4 groups, DOE will always -- DOE is on ASRAC and 

5 DOE will also have a seat on every working 

6 group. And then at least one of us has to be 

7 on every working group. Could it be more than 

8 one of us?

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, it could be.

10 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Okay. Is there 

11 an upper limit on how many folks from this 

12 committee?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: We didn't set an 

14 upper limit.

15 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Okay. And then 

16 what would be the access to the consulting 

17 department for every rulemaking as a team of 

18 consultants who are doing the technical work. 

19 What is the working group's typical access to 

20 the consultants? And what would be their 

21 involvement in a working group's 

22 deliberations?
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think we're 

2 going to try to use the same model we did for 

3 transformers. And so my expectation is that 

4 we would provide the resources necessary to 

5 get to a good outcome. So I think we'll have 

6 them in the room and some mode of transformers 

7 and hopefully do some real time analysis to 

8 get the job done.

9 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Just for those 

10 who weren't there, when we did the 

11 transformers, it was the same sort of team of 

12 consultants who were doing -- who had been 

13 working for DOE for some period of time for 

14 the normal rulemaking process were then 

15 essentially available to the negotiating 

16 committee in real time.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, that's our 

18 expectation is to provide the same level of 

19 support. Hopefully, we'll have enough 

20 resources to spread them around depending on 

21 what the working group situation is.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: John, presumably 
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1 the work principally or almost totally gets 

2 done in the context of actual meetings of the 

3 working group.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I think 

5 what we found with transformers is oftentimes 

6 the models take a while to run. So we would 

7 have multi-day meetings and part of the 

8 meeting would be discussing hey, what about 

9 this and what about that.

10 And then what we did is we ran 

11 some stuff overnight. And then the next day 

12 we had some answers for some of the more 

13 challenging questions.

14 But oftentimes everyone had their 

15 laptops and we had manufacturers looking up 

16 information in real time. We had our 

17 consultants doing analysis in real time. And 

18 we found a lot of good real time work being 

19 done at the meetings.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom.

21 MR. COUGHLIN: Where there might 

22 be some work, John, required by some of the 
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1 people behind the scenes and they may not be 

2 there, will we go through the DOE 

3 representative on the working group committee 

4 to make a request that we need somebody to 

5 take a look at this or to do some analyses?

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. I think 

7 that's fair. I think everything is on the 

8 table. So if someone on the working group 

9 says, I'd like you to analyze this, the 

10 working group themselves could vote.

11 I know with transformers there 

12 were some different levels that wanted to be 

13 analyzed that the group themselves voted not 

14 to look at for one reason or another. But I 

15 don't see why that wouldn't be the case.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional 

17 questions? Final questions?

18 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: I had one more.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Andrew.

20 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Just time 

21 frame. Do you have a feel for what you think 

22 the typical time frame that a working group 
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1 would be charged to act within?

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a good 

3 question. I think it all depends upon the 

4 product and where DOE already sits in its 

5 process of doing analysis. I'd hate to pin a 

6 number on how long it would be, but we saw 

7 with transformers that was like a gun to the 

8 head was about six months' time, right. We 

9 did from July to February roughly, so six, 

10 seven, eight months for that one.

11 But I think a year is probably not 

12 a bad starting point for some things. We're 

13 going to find that there are others that we're 

14 going to want to do quicker. I think it's 

15 going to be very product specific.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Kelley.

17 MS. KLINE: The examples we've 

18 talked about so far have been in the context 

19 of product-specific rulemakings. Do you 

20 envision any work groups ever taking on I 

21 guess more crosscutting questions or things 

22 that aren't -- things where the result is not 
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1 a rulemaking recommendation?

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, I think 

3 commercial equipment labeling is one that 

4 would fit that category. But hopefully there 

5 are others. Yes, I hope there are some 

6 crosscutting ideas that come out of this.

7 Again, I'd hate to just say here's 

8 five rulemakings. Go do them. I hope there's 

9 a couple other more crosscutting issues that 

10 we bring up.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

12 MR. ECKMAN: I have one, but we'll 

13 save it until later because it will take a 

14 longer discussion.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good 

16 overview. Additional questions? Final 

17 questions before we move on?

18 (No response.)

19 So then let's do that.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. I thought I 

21 would provide a little bit of an overview of 

22 the program, where things are today so that it 
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1 will help the committee maybe focus some of 

2 their thoughts. I'm not getting a response 

3 from my clicker.

4 (Off the record comments.)

5 There we go. Got it. Thanks. 

6 This slide just gives you kind of an overview 

7 of the different things we think about in the 

8 program.

9 Generally speaking, energy savings 

10 is our goal. How we get there can be lots of 

11 different paths. But as this funnel displays 

12 we start with our statutory authority and 

13 there are lots of things I wish we could do. 

14 But legally we can't do them. That's why my 

15 lawyer always has my back over here. We start 

16 with the statutory authority.

17 With that becomes product 

18 coverage. What you've seen recently out of 

19 the program is an expansion of coverage. So 

20 the statute sets some clear language on how we 

21 can expand authority to other products. We've 

22 done that with a few different things. 
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1 Namely, set-top boxes, pumps and commercial 

2 fans are the three that come to mind.

3 And once we expand product 

4 coverage we need to develop a test procedure. 

5 Once the test procedure is set, we can then 

6 establish efficiency levels for standards. 

7 Then you have the date of compliance.

8 And then, of course, at some point 

9 and what you've seen recently is a more of a 

10 focus on enforcing the standards. It's always 

11 good to have a standard out there. But I 

12 think we found in some cases that if you have 

13 lax enforcement you may not be getting the 

14 energy savings that you previously thought you 

15 were getting. 

16 The program the last couple of 

17 years has been actively enforcing its 

18 standards. We just reached a settlement with 

19 a big Asian firm where the settlement was $4.5 

20 million. We'll talk about that in a little 

21 bit.

22 As Roland mentioned this morning, 
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1 we have about just over 60 products now that 

2 are covered by the program. And these are 

3 known as the covered products. These in total 

4 are responsible for about 90 percent of the 

5 energy use in homes, 60 percent in commercial 

6 buildings and almost 30 percent in industrial 

7 energy consumption.

8 You can see based on those 

9 percentages where the target of opportunity 

10 lies for increased energy savings. I think we 

11 as a group should focus in the areas where we 

12 think there's energy savings potential when we 

13 form these working groups.

14 In 2009, there were about 113 

15 million homes and 5.4 million commercial 

16 buildings which consumed about 40 quads of 

17 energy. Just over 40 percent of the total in 

18 the U.S. in any given year.

19 And then finally energy use in 

20 buildings, we spend almost a half of billion 

21 dollars in energy for our buildings. So it's 

22 a lot of money. And I think the work of this 
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1 group can help cut our energy bills as we move 

2 forward.

3 What the program does, I mentioned 

4 it a little bit on the first slide. But we 

5 establish test procedures and then again the 

6 efficiency metric is very important. Without 

7 it, you can't set a standard.

8 They need to be carefully 

9 developed because you don't want to have 

10 situations where test procedures could be 

11 gamed or there are loopholes in test 

12 procedures. So it's very important to have

13 these carefully laid out.

14 And then once you have the test 

15 procedure, you can establish a standard. 

16 Often times as you see at the bottom, 

17 standards are actually not hard numbers, but 

18 some form of an equation that could vary based 

19 on, say, volume is one. You can just see 

20 little cutouts of what test procedures and 

21 standards look like in the Federal Register.

22 I spoke a little bit about 
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1 enforcement. Kind of new for the program. I 

2 think before say 2010, around that time, is 

3 when DOE has began enforcing its standards 

4 more rigorously. There's lots of different 

5 actions that a manufacturer must certify its 

6 product. That's one basic enforcement action 

7 is that you didn't certify your product.

8 And then one of the other actions 

9 which may be more serious is that your 

10 product does not conform to the minimum 

11 standards. So we're enforcing both of those 

12 aspects of the program. Again, there's a 

13 little clip about the 4.5 million for four 

14 models that failed to meet our energy 

15 efficiency standards. That was back in 

16 November.

17 A few of us asked about what else 

18 we could do besides just negotiate a 

19 rulemaking. So the other thing to remember, 

20 the program works with Energy Star to develop 

21 the test procedures for Energy Star products. 

22 And we also work with EPA to develop Energy 
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1 Star Most Efficient. Those are other areas 

2 that possibly there's some topics there.

3 Generally speaking, the same test 

4 procedures is used for Energy Star as the 

5 covered products. DOE also runs the Energy 

6 Star Verification Program for EPA. So we will 

7 test a bunch of products to see if they meet 

8 the Energy Star criteria.

9 Since 2010, we've tested over 400 

10 of these. And if we find issues with that, we 

11 refer the product to EPA for action. So DOE 

12 itself does not take the action. EPA does 

13 that.

14 I mentioned Energy Star Most 

15 Efficient. A fairly new program. Been around 

16 a couple of years. But roughly speaking, this 

17 program targets about five percent of the most 

18 efficient products in any product class and 

19 designates it as Energy Star Most Efficient. 

20 I think there's about seven to ten products 

21 now that have Most Efficient criteria. 

22 Finally, we work with FTC. And I 
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1 guess we've probably all seen these yellow 

2 labels by now. But the Energy Guide label, 

3 FTC requires these labels on several, most

4 residential products. And you could see the 

5 annual energy operating cost that's on these 

6 labels. Again, the DOE test procedure is what 

7 drives the answer for that number.

8 And then manufacturers file data 

9 reports with FTC. And so a new thing here is 

10 that we're combining the FTC and DOE 

11 requirement to one submission.

12 What have we done so far? We 

13 believe that -- and these are estimates -- of 

14 all the standards that we've promulgated to 

15 date we think we can get almost 70 quads of 

16 energy savings by 2020. So that's about 70 

17 percent in any given year of national energy 

18 consumption. And by 2030 we think about 120 

19 quads.

20 It translates to huge dollar 

21 savings. So $900 billion by 2020. And 

22 cumulatively $1.6 trillion through 2030. Big 
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1 numbers. And again the carbon dioxide savings 

2 will pretty much track the energy savings. 

3 You can see by 2030 we think about 6.5 billion 

4 metric tons.

5 Manufacturer benefits. Obviously, 

6 the one big plus for Federal standards is that 

7 the Federal standards preempt the state 

8 standards that might exist. This is something 

9 manufacturers would see as a benefit in that 

10 there's one standard to meet and not a 

11 patchwork of state standards that might be out 

12 there. So I think manufacturers see that as a 

13 benefit.

14 We think it also creates certainty 

15 in the market. And I think the test 

16 procedures in particular create a level 

17 playing field for all manufacturers to follow. 

18 I think again another plus for this. We 

19 think the program could benefit all the 

20 different players here, the manufacturers and 

21 the consumers and the environment.

22 What are we working on? I'm not 
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1 going to go through the whole list. But this 

2 is something to keep in front of us as we talk 

3 in the afternoon about potential areas of 

4 opportunity. Right here, you can see all the 

5 different standards, rulemakings that we're 

6 working on currently. A couple of them at the 

7 top we haven't officially kicked off, but we 

8 do have some statutory deadlines coming up in 

9 the future.

10 You can see all the different 

11 products. This definitely spans the whole 

12 gamut of all the way from commercial equipment 

13 down to say set top boxes. Just a long list.

14 And then here are the test 

15 procedures we're working on. Again, test 

16 procedures are something that we might think 

17 about as well as we move forward. And we have 

18 about 30 of each. They're not necessarily 

19 one-for-one. For the most part they are, but 

20 you could see the different stages of where 

21 things are. And I think that might help us 

22 guide some decisions as well.
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1 Typically, if you want to get 

2 something done, hopefully we're in a stage of 

3 development where we have enough analysis and 

4 information to push it forward.

5 That's my overview. At this time, 

6 I will take some questions about the program, 

7 if anybody has any.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. John.

9 MR. CASKEY: As you mentioned, 

10 these are the products that are under review 

11 of consideration. I see things like lighting 

12 and motors and things that are like one device 

13 in itself. Yet there are other components of 

14 the motor systems. And what is DOE doing 

15 these days relative to looking at the system's 

16 efficiency where you've got lights and having 

17 the most efficient light in the world doesn't 

18 matter that much if it's on 24/7 and I only 

19 need it on one hour a day?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. Of course, 

21 that would be product specific. And then 

22 there are some legal requirements for each 
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1 product that are in the statute that tells us 

2 what the metric is. Unfortunately, for a lot 

3 of things, our hands are tied in terms of 

4 looking at systems' approach.

5 But we've heard loud and clear 

6 from a lot of folks that system efficiency is 

7 something we should consider. And I think is 

8 actually a good topic to bring up definitely.

9 We looked at it more with -- I 

10 know we've had a couple of public meetings 

11 last week about pumps and fans. And obviously 

12 the system there, pumps in particular, was a 

13 big part of the conversation. Yes, we did 

14 talk extensively about that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, John. Please.

16 MR. CASKEY: This is a real 

17 curiosity question. But you periodically talk 

18 about the bureaucracy within DOE and your 

19 hands being tied and things like that. I 

20 mean, is it possible for this group? If we 

21 come up and say, "Oh my gosh. Systems is the 

22 biggest thing, the most important thing for 
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1 energy efficiency for the next 20 years," I 

2 mean are we able to come up with a 

3 recommendation that would say we should 

4 collectively go to Congress and try and alter 

5 whether your hands are tied or aren't tied?

6 MR. COHEN: That brings a whole 

7 different set of bureaucracies. What we can 

8 do -- By the way, my name is Dan Cohen. I'm 

9 the Assistant General Counsel for DOE, 

10 responsible for the appliance programs. Oh, 

11 sorry. My name is Dan Cohen. I'm a lawyer 

12 here in the General Counsel's office at DOE.

13 We as a federal agency are 

14 somewhat constrained in terms of our making a 

15 proposal to Congress for any legislative 

16 change in the statute. We can't on our own do 

17 that. There's a whole process for developing 

18 legislative proposals and we need approval. 

19 It has to be an administration wide thing to 

20 do.

21 We can't also encourage anybody to 

22 go to Congress on our behalf. That would be 
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1 lobbying which is actually a criminal 

2 violation. So no one here, no federal 

3 employee, is going to want to go down a 

4 potentially criminal route.

5 But this is certainly a 

6 recommendation the committee could make to the 

7 Department to seek a change in our legislative 

8 authority. And we would have to go through 

9 the process of getting that approval to submit 

10 that change to Congress.

11 And to the extent that anybody 

12 decides they think that's a good idea and they 

13 on their own decide they want to go to 

14 Congress individually or as part of some 

15 organized group, they can certainly do that. 

16 We won't take any position on it.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

18 MR. COUSINS: A matter of 

19 clarification. I'm looking at this slide that 

20 is up there now and procedures under 

21 development, it says, "Procedures are 

22 ongoing." And I'm thinking about exactly do 
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1 we mean by the term "ongoing."

2 What I mean is I know there are 

3 procedures that exist now for not all of these 

4 areas. But I see there are things in various 

5 stages. I look at luminaries, for example, 

6 the last one on the list. RFI, I'm not sure 

7 what that RFI means. So maybe some 

8 clarification around what we're saying here.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. I know of 

10 glazed over that, didn't I? When I said 

11 "ongoing" it means we're actively working on 

12 it. It doesn't mean that there's not a test 

13 procedure in place already for a product 

14 that's not on this list. That's the 

15 difference between ongoing and something 

16 that's already existing. But we're just now 

17 working on an update or a new one.

18 The stages. A NOPR is a Notice of 

19 Proposed Rulemaking. So we're working on 

20 putting that out. An SNOPR is a Supplemental 

21 notice. So that generally means we've already 

22 put out a notice of proposed rulemaking. We 
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1 took comment. We had enough comment where we 

2 think we can't go directly to a final rule on. 

3 So that's what an SNOPR is.

4 A framework document precedes all 

5 of that work. So that just scopes out what 

6 the market, what the rule, what will be 

7 included in the rule.

8 An RFI is a request for 

9 information. So for luminaries for example we 

10 put out an RFI that just asks a whole bunch of 

11 questions. And this basically dealt with 

12 John's questions about systems efficiency for 

13 lighting. That is what that one was about.

14 I think that describes all of them 

15 up there. Yes. And then there's a 

16 preliminary analysis which comes out after the 

17 framework, but before the NOPR and that 

18 essentially lays out the first set of numbers 

19 you'll see would go into a potential proposal. 

20 That would be the other.

21 I think we have some on the 

22 previous slide. Yes. And NOPR and 
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1 determination. We can get to a point where we 

2 can make a determination that no standard will 

3 be proposed. So that's what that means.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: This is the general 

5 sequence.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Top to bottom.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, no.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: No?

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, framework 

11 comes before that.

12 MR. COHEN: Right. The general 

13 sequence is framework followed by an 

14 opportunity for comment on the framework, 

15 preliminary analysis that takes the results of 

16 the framework and the comment, develops sort 

17 of our initial thought of analyses and where 

18 the efficiencies break down in terms of 

19 cutoffs. Again an opportunity for comment. 

20 Then a proposed rule. Opportunity for 

21 comment. Final rule.

22 To one of the other questions, I 
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1 thought it was John Mandyck asked about speed 

2 potentially. At least in the transformer 

3 negotiation, what we saw was that essentially 

4 the work that we would do in the preliminary 

5 analysis and framework stages sort of occurred 

6 in the context of the negotiation.

7 We didn't go through those earlier 

8 processes. We just issued a proposed rule 

9 based on all the work that was done. That's 

10 why there could be some efficiencies gained in 

11 terms of timing.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Other questions 

13 here? Yes, Andrew.

14 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: I just want to 

15 comment on the process and sort of how I have 

16 -- what my experience has been in terms of 

17 negotiating and where that's sort of worked in 

18 this schematic. I think one of the things 

19 that we have to keep in mind as anything 

20 advances at least not so much for the 

21 crosscutting topics but for something that is 

22 a standard rulemaking is that rules still have 
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1 to meet legal muster. So whatever our working 

2 committee develops and then advises to ASRAC, 

3 these folks have to then take it and it has to 

4 meet legal muster. It has to be something 

5 that they can propose under the statute that 

6 meets their legal criteria.

7 One of the things that we've 

8 experienced is that from an efficiency 

9 advocate sitting where we sit is that the time 

10 that often is a good time to sit down and to 

11 discuss things is when the preliminary 

12 analysis has been published because it gives 

13 us who are advocates who aren't making these 

14 things and don't have the engineering data, 

15 what it costs to make these things more 

16 efficient. We don't have all the data that a 

17 manufacturer might have or a retailed might 

18 have to know how does this work in the 

19 marketplace.

20 When we see something that's been 

21 published by the Department, then we have data 

22 on which to make some judgments in addition to 
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1 whatever bring to the table previously. So we 

2 found that the publication of the PTSD creates 

3 an opportunity for discussion on a private 

4 basis. And I would think in this context, 

5 too.

6 That said, what goes -- The 

7 quality of the PTSD analysis is critical, 

8 right. If people can't agree that that's a 

9 good analysis, then you'll have a hard time 

10 having a discussion. There probably is work 

11 to happen before there is so that what's 

12 coming out of the PTSD that the Department has 

13 published is something that stakeholders can 

14 have a good discussion around. "I don't 

15 believe it" or "I believe it." Then where are 

16 you could be quite a difficult process.

17 I think once, in my experience, 

18 the Department has published a NOPR it's 

19 pretty hard to have a fruitful discussion 

20 because positions tend to lock down. Either "I 

21 got what I wanted" or "I got most of what I 

22 wanted" or "Or I didn't." That's how I would 
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1 think about this progressing is it's valuable 

2 to have discussion once there is a framework 

3 out there or pre-framework. Hard to kind of 

4 come to some sort of recommendation from an 

5 advocate's perspective.

6 And then coming to a 

7 recommendation once that PTSD has been 

8 published or that preliminary analysis that's 

9 labeled up there to me strikes me as being the 

10 time where the bulk of a working group's 

11 action would happen.

12 And then I also wanted to comment 

13 on the earlier discussion about legislative 

14 changes because I think that's also an 

15 important feature. When we've done private 

16 negotiations, often we've tried to put more 

17 moving parts on the table. In a negotiation 

18 if you get more moving parts going sometimes 

19 that could be a way to get to yes if we can 

20 find our ways to meet the party's needs, 

21 multiple objectives are on the table.

22 So we've included things in prior 
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1 agreements that have been outside the 

2 Department's jurisdiction, things like 

3 recommendations for tax incentives, 

4 recommendations for utility programs. So 

5 things that are outside the jurisdiction of 

6 the Department directly. 

7 And also things that may be 

8 somewhat in your jurisdiction, but not the 

9 standards program jurisdiction. For example, 

10 new Energy Star levels have been part of a 

11 prior private negotiations. We can move the 

12 standard to here, but we can move Energy Start 

13 to there and we think that by Energy Star to 

14 drive to somebody savings if the objective is 

15 energy savings, cost of energy savings. We can 

16 get part of that shifting Energy Star in 

17 concert with the standards.

18 So I guess the question to the 

19 Department is if a working group wanted to get 

20 into those kinds of discussions about things 

21 like tax incentives that clearly are not in 

22 your jurisdiction how would that work. Is 
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1 that something that would be out of bounds? 

2 Or is that something that might be in bounds 

3 and a working group discussion or?

4 MR. COHEN: That gets back to what 

5 I think I said before, Andrew. Obviously, 

6 anything can be discussed. What we can do 

7 with it is a different question. So if the 

8 ASRAC -- Whatever the working group 

9 recommendation is up to the full ASRAC and the 

10 ASRAC wants to make a recommendation to the 

11 Department to seek a change in its legislative 

12 authority, that's a recommendation that can be 

13 made to us. We'd have to go through a process 

14 if we wanted to, in fact, do that to develop a 

15 proposal and get approval to submit that 

16 proposal to Congress. We couldn't just take 

17 that and seek to go to Congress and get it 

18 changed.

19 If the working group is going to 

20 have that discussion and you decide this is a 

21 really good idea and you want to go pursue it 

22 yourself, that's fine. You can go do that. 
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1 We just wouldn't take any position on it. We 

2 couldn't.

3 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: I guess a 

4 scenario I could see imaging some tension 

5 would be the working group wanted one of your 

6 consultants to model something that was a 

7 modeling about -- Or if we change Energy Star 

8 to this level and assume that -- consumers by 

9 Energy Star, would that be hard for you to do 

10 because it's not sort of your -- He's shaking 

11 his head like you think you could.

12 MR. COHEN: Yes, I think we could 

13 probably do the modeling. I guess the 

14 question is whether the model was robust 

15 enough to do that kind of work.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is. I could be

17 done. We could definitely model it. 

18 Obviously, with the -- This is Ashley -- level 

19 setting we would have to engage EPA pretty 

20 early on to actually change the Energy Star 

21 level. We work with them pretty closely with 

22 Energy Star program. So I would say that's 
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1 definitely something that could be considered 

2 here.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: John.

4 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Maybe just a 

5 follow-on question there. So in past private 

6 negotiations there will be a signatory 

7 document that we agree to do X, Y or Z. And 

8 under Andrew's scenario if the working group 

9 decided to pursue ancillary issues in tandem 

10 with appliance standards such as -- let's just 

11 pick tax credits and that wanted to be 

12 memorialized. Could that be done absent a DOE 

13 signature?

14 MR. COHEN: We would probably want 

15 to talk about it first before we created some 

16 document. My sense of it just off the top 

17 without particular facts is that we would 

18 probably ask you not to put that into a 

19 recommendation to the Department.

20 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Would it be 

21 okay separately for members of the working 

22 group to privately outside of DOE come to some 
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1 consensus?

2 MR. COHEN: Yes. Just to draw 

3 that distinction, we wouldn't -- I think we 

4 would have a problem with a document that came 

5 to us that said that you all agree to do 

6 something that you know we can't do. And you 

7 put that in the recommendation to us.

8 But on the other hand if you all 

9 on the outside on own separately, you're free 

10 agents. You can do whatever you'd like to do. 

11 We won't encourage you to do that. We can't 

12 encourage you to do that.

13 But you can make whatever choices 

14 you want to make. You don't give up your 

15 rights just by walking through the door.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom.

17 MR. ECKMAN: In the rulemaking 

18 process, there is always a description of a 

19 non regulatory option. So how far can -- this 

20 is kind of what we're talking about here is 

21 non regulatory options to either Energy Star 

22 or some other approach to get there besides or 
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1 getting all the way with the rulemaking that 

2 you get this far with the standard and then 

3 this far with something else.

4 Is that in keeping with what 

5 you're saying there? We could propose it 

6 there, but not to -- I mean I don't know where 

7 the boundary is.

8 MR. COHEN: Obviously, if it's 

9 something like Energy Star, we have statutory 

10 -- there's a whole statutory authority that 

11 exists for that. That's a different thing. 

12 For instance, there was some thought in the 

13 context of set top boxes, right. Andrew was 

14 working with the manufacturers and the cable 

15 companies. That was an entirely private

16 negotiation that was going on there and they 

17 were trying to work out a non regulatory 

18 option to present to us.

19 And that was fine. They went 

20 through that process. It ultimately didn't 

21 come to fruition. And we would have taken a 

22 look at that.
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1 I took the question from both 

2 Andrew and John as being something about a 

3 change in our authority.

4 MR. ECKMAN: Right. I wasn't 

5 going there. There was a package deal that 

6 included a non regulatory component that may 

7 or may not involve what you can do directly.

8 MR. COHEN: Right. That's right.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional 

10 questions here? Yes, John.

11 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey. So when 

12 we were doing the transformer negotiated 

13 rulemaking, I guess we were sort of under the 

14 guidance of I think it's ERAC. Is that group 

15 still in existence? So we're essentially 

16 taking over some of the things that they did 

17 in the past.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, transformers 

19 killed ERAC.

20 (Laughter.)

21 That put them over the edge.

22 MR. CASKEY: Let's see. So my 
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1 next question is that in the transformer stuff 

2 DOE informed us of what the rules were like I 

3 think it's your obligation to pick something 

4 to the effect of the highest technologically 

5 feasible efficiency that's proven to be cost 

6 effective or something like that.

7 Are you going to share? Does 

8 everybody here already know what those things 

9 are? Or are you going to share them with us 

10 as sort of a starting point for our work?

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think for the 

12 working groups that's when that level of 

13 detail will be necessary. And that will 

14 describe what the EPCA 7 factors are.

15 But the consensus agreement 

16 itself, the ones that were before us, wouldn't 

17 necessarily always be the point that the 

18 Department would pick. That's the whole point 

19 with the negotiated rulemaking. You don't 

20 have to get to the outcome that the Department 

21 would pick by itself.

22 MR. COHEN: Otherwise it has meet 
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1 the statutory obligation.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Exactly.

3 MR. COHEN: Why don't I just 

4 describe just generally what John is asking 

5 about which is our basic statutory obligation 

6 is to come up with a standard. This is just 

7 in the standards world. We're not talking 

8 about labeling or the enforcement or 

9 certification

10 To develop a standard which 

11 maximizes the energy efficiency that the 

12 Secretary determines is economically justified 

13 and technologically feasible. And then there 

14 are seven criteria for economic justification 

15 which range from considering manufacturing 

16 impacts, life cycle costs, payback periods, 

17 environmental impacts.

18 We monetize all of those. The way 

19 we do our analysis, we monetize all those 

20 different factors. And we determine the 

21 maximum technologically feasible efficiency 

22 level and weigh those monetized factors for 
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1 economic justification to calculate an overall 

2 net present value. And when we get to the 

3 place where we hit the first positive net 

4 present value, that's where we have determined 

5 that we have maximized the energy efficiency 

6 that is technologically feasible and 

7 economically justified.

8 That's the basic structure for how 

9 we set it up. The consensus would be looking 

10 at those seven factors, the payback periods, 

11 the life cycle costs and the analysis that we 

12 do and how we weigh out all those factors.

13 The seventh of the seven factors 

14 is other factors as considered by the 

15 Secretary which taken into account different 

16 types of issues. For instance, again using 

17 the transformer example we keep going back to, 

18 one of the main factors there which wasn't 

19 monetizable necessarily was the mix of steel 

20 that gets used in the core of a transformer 

21 and where the line is between using grain22 oriented steels and going to amorphous steels. 
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1 And John can give you chapter and verse on 

2 the engineering of all of that.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's all behind 

4 us.

5 MR. COHEN: It's all behind us 

6 now. Yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Other questions 

8 here? Yes, Tim.

9 MR. CASSIDY: Hi, Tim Cassidy. 

10 Looking at the list of test procedures, I was 

11 thinking about the working groups. I assume 

12 that each of these could have a working group. 

13 It could I guess. I don't know what the plan 

14 is.

15 But I'm looking at it like ceiling 

16 fans and ceiling fan lighting kits at the 

17 bottom of the list. And then I see motors on 

18 the list and I see luminaries and lighting 

19 systems.

20 Is there any thought about how 

21 these different working groups might work 

22 together? Or are they just completely 
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1 independently making rules and standards 

2 because a ceiling fan obviously is a motor and 

3 a lighting kit?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley for 

5 DOE. So what you see here is a list of 

6 products that we are required by statute at 

7 least for most of these. Or we have elected 

8 to do individual product test procedures. 

9 Yes, a motor is part of a ceiling fan, but we 

10 have a separate test procedure for the ceiling 

11 fan and for the motor.

12 Now that doesn't ever preclude a 

13 working group from taking up multiple ideas 

14 and discussing them, whether it be a test 

15 procedure or standards or whatever and working 

16 together. But the outcome for DOE would 

17 probably have to be separate tests procedures 

18 unless it's like a new product of a system or

19 something like that. Does that make sense?

20 MR. CASSIDY: It does. It seems 

21 it could lead to some conflicts. I'm just 

22 again seeking that if this committee works 
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1 really well that you would have a more 

2 holistic approach maybe.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's one idea as 

4 to how we could tackle this definitely.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Kelley.

6 MS. KLINE: The question about the 

7 holistic approach just made me think. Is 

8 there anything else that DOE has on its radar 

9 screen that would be more of a crosscutting 

10 rulemaking? I'm thinking like at one point 

11 there was discussion about maybe another 

12 certification rulemaking or something like 

13 that.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. I 

15 think this afternoon when we go to brainstorm 

16 ideas. The Department has said on the record 

17 that they are going to do another 

18 certification and compliance and enforcement 

19 rulemaking for a variety of different 

20 provisions as part of that -- You can see the 

21 list in the beginning that John had as part of 

22 that whether it be laboratory accreditation or 
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1 testing programs or commercial certification. 

2 All of those would be on the table for us to 

3 discuss this afternoon which would be more 

4 crosscutting type issues. Yes, absolutely.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken.

6 MR. PETERSON: More of a process 

7 question. Is this committee working simply 

8 off of when we get working group 

9 recommendations a simple majority?

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Doug passed me 

11 this note. And he said, "Do you want to 

12 discuss how to define consensus now?"

13 MR. PETERSON: That was the second 

14 part of my question.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: It was on the list 

16 of our things to do. That was our first real 

17 action item to tackle. But if there are no 

18 more questions on this content we can move 

19 right to that before lunch. That's fine by me.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking that 

21 maybe it would be useful to describe -- Well, 

22 you tell me. Would it be useful to describe 
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1 what happened in the transformers rule, the 

2 set of definitions? Or would you like to go 

3 in a different direction with that?

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, we definitely 

5 want to go in a somewhat different direction I 

6 think.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve has a 

8 question.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: We transformed 

10 from --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, go ahead.

12 MR. GORDON: Before we can even 

13 talk about consensus, do we first have to talk 

14 about quorum? I mean there are 11 of us. And 

15 how many of us constitutes a sufficient 

16 quantity to move forward even before we talk 

17 consensus? What is a quorum?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I think we 

19 can define all that right here. For 

20 transformers, everyone was there all the time.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Obligation for the 
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1 working group. For this group, I mean we kept 

2 the number small just for that reason that I 

3 think it's a lot easier to get 11 of us and 

4 I'm not one of the us thankfully. But 11 of 

5 you at the table or on the phone to make that 

6 quorum be all of us.

7 As for what consensus is, I think 

8 that's something we should discuss. But 

9 quorum we can talk about it, but my hope was 

10 that all of us would be there on the phone or 

11 at the table. And we would arrange our 

12 meetings such that that would happen.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: And even if a 

14 member were for example in absentia that that 

15 member could find a way to speak.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: They could send a 

17 delegate.

18 MR. COHEN: Actually, I would have 

19 to check that. I don't think a delegate could 

20 vote. I think just the members. They can be 

21 there to represent the person, but I don't 

22 think they can vote.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Could a member be 

2 on the phone and say aye or nay?

3 MR. COHEN: Yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

5 Yes, Dan.

6 MR. COHEN: I was going to --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

8 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: It seems to me 

9 that you want to define quorum something short 

10 of having everybody there every time. It just 

11 seems to me that --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Practically

13 speaking.

14 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: From a 

15 practical point of view, if I'm gone for six 

16 months for some reason or another.

17 MR. ECKMAN: Or somebody is ill or 

18 --

19 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Yes. I think 

20 from a practical point of view 100 percent you 

21 won't be able to make decisions without having 

22 to have everybody there.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you suggest 

2 something, Andrew, as a way of moving this 

3 forward?

4 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Steve, you've 

5 been involved in committee. What do other 

6 people think? I mean I would think some sort 

7 of super majority as a quorum. But I don't 

8 know what that number is. Is it three9 fourths? Is it --

10 MR. COUSINS: Steve Cousins. 

11 Since we know how many we have -- we have 11 

12 of us -- we could define that by a number like 

13 nine for example. Nine or more.

14 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Although there 

15 is the possibility as this goes forward that 

16 we would have vacancies on the committee 

17 either because of a resignation or because 

18 someone is termed up and DOE hasn't filled the 

19 slot. So there may be -- You could do it 

20 either way, but there is a possibility of 

21 vacancies on the committee.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: John.
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1 MR. CASKEY: Just to throw a 

2 number out, I mean as far as I know 99 percent 

3 of the organizations I'm involved with they 

4 use something like 50 percent. A minimum of 

5 50 percent to establish a quorum. So that may 

6 be sort of weak for what we're trying to 

7 accomplish here.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So if it were more 

9 like six or something like that, then that 

10 relates to what you would establish as 

11 consensus whether that's everybody in the room 

12 saying aye or whether it's a majority or a 

13 super majority, right. If you were going to 

14 go with some sort of a majority voting scheme, 

15 if you only had six persons and you split 

16 three by three that wouldn't work.

17 Ashley, go ahead. No.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You always need 

19 the plus one, right?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. It is to me 

21 compelling that you could have a member 

22 calling in, for example, to participate in 
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1 that decision making process. So that gives 

2 you a little more degrees of freedom.

3 John.

4 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: We could 

5 consider 75 percent quorum which would be 

6 eight. And then a majority of the eight. And 

7 I guess if you get to four-four that means 

8 there's no consensus.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And so how 

10 did the consensus rule work -- did you say 

11 that -- in the transformer rule?

12 MR. COHEN: In that case the 

13 committee decided that it was unanimity of 

14 those members who were at that meeting.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: The Federal 

16 Advisory Committees have evolved a lot since 

17 I've done work in them over the span of these 

18 20 years. And this seems to provide a lot of 

19 flexibility. Very typically the standard for 

20 negotiated rulemaking historically has been 

21 just that where every person that is a member 

22 needs to say aye. I can live with this to 
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1 create a consensus recommendation. But you 

2 all have the opportunity to do it any way you 

3 want to do it.

4 John.

5 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Let's remember 

6 there are two levels. So it's the level of 

7 which this committee will determine consensus. 

8 And then each working group will have its 

9 authority to determine how they want to define 

10 consensus as well.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

12 Andrew.

13 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: That strikes me 

14 as sort of a crucial point. It's the folks 

15 who are the stakeholders on a given topic who 

16 will have to work that through in the working 

17 group. And in a sense we're here to bless it, 

18 right.

19 To me I think the strawman that 

20 you opted for which is that 75 percent for 

21 quorum and then a majority of those who show 

22 up.
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1 I would add to that two thoughts. 

2 One is that there should be a commitment to 

3 make available participation by phone. That 

4 should be a rule so that's available to 

5 anybody who chooses to do it. 

6 Then the second thing I would say 

7 is that whenever the vote is should be 

8 conveyed to the Department. So if it is a 

9 split vote, they know. Did you guys decided 

10 based on 4-3 or was it 7-0?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And the 

12 committee is composed -- Go ahead. Ashley, go 

13 ahead.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was just going 

15 to say that I think one of the requirements is 

16 from the working group that (a) the working 

17 group reports to ASRAC the vote and then (b) 

18 an explanation of the majority and the 

19 minority views as well as that's what we would 

20 do to DOE so you can see the vote and why, 

21 both sides.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 Yes, Ken.

2 MR. PETERSON: Just so we aren't 

3 confusing things, we're really talking about 

4 consensus at the working group level and a 

5 majority as ASRAC level, right? I mean in the 

6 presentation earlier that's the way it was 

7 given to us. I mean the working groups need 

8 to reach consensus and consensus is a lot more 

9 than a quorum and a vote.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

11 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: I think the 

12 working group can define that. The working 

13 group could define the consensus as 50 percent 

14 as well or some other number.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are trying to 

16 define what quorum and consensus is for ASRAC, 

17 for us. How we're going to make 

18 recommendations to DOE.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: What I've heard so 

20 far is that John suggests that a quorum be 75 

21 percent or eight. And that the decision 

22 making rule for ASRAC would be a majority vote 
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1 among those present. A quorum of eight being 

2 the minimum.

3 Tom? Others? David?

4 DR. HUNGERFORD: Majority vote 

5 isn't consensus. I mean I suppose we could 

6 define it as such, but it really violates the 

7 idea behind the word. The pure idea of 

8 consensus is obviously there's no 

9 disagreement.

10 But as a practical form of 

11 decision making, there's always some need to 

12 prevent a blocking vote from one person. So 

13 it seems more practical that if we're going to 

14 call it consensus or required to call it 

15 consensus, that it be something better than 

16 majority vote.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you required to 

18 call it consensus?

19 DR. HUNGERFORD: It's unanimity 

20 minus one.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: It is defined as 

22 consensus. Okay.
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1 DR. HUNGERFORD: I'm just a person 

2 not torturing language too far.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

4 Tom.

5 MR. ECKMAN: I'm just doing the 

6 quick math and if you had eight and five voted 

7 in favor that's less than half of the group 

8 voting in favor. So it seems like that's not 

9 quite consensus even though some are absent 

10 the vote.

11 That still doesn't get us anywhere 

12 near the majority. So some other super 

13 majority of that so we could at least get six 

14 people out of the -- You know, a fair number 

15 out of the eight. Then we're representing at 

16 least half of the constituents of the ASRAC 

17 committee itself is a little higher hurdle. 

18 But given that we can vote by 

19 phone or some other way, maybe even by proxy 

20 with another member, so that we could fulfill 

21 the obligation of being around the table to 

22 discuss it.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

2 Dan.

3 MR. COHEN: One other thought to 

4 throw out and this came up in the transformer 

5 context as well was that some people thought 

6 that there was a potential for that they might 

7 not be able to vote yes, but they didn't want 

8 to vote no. There was the ability to abstain 

9 and that didn't prevent a unanimous vote. So 

10 that's an option you might want to think about 

11 as well.

12 DR. HUNGERFORD: That's typically 

13 called standing aside in consensus decision 

14 making.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, John.

16 MR. CASKEY: So far from what I've 

17 heard, certainly I'm happy to support the 75 

18 percent for the establishment of a quorum. 

19 Again, most of my groups are 50 percent. But 

20 75 percent is fine. And I can live with that, 

21 if you will.

22 To me, another group that I'm 
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1 involved with actually did define consensus 

2 something to the effect that the goal of the 

3 group was to reach unanimity in their 

4 decisions. But if they could not do that, 

5 that they needed to achieve at least a super 

6 majority which was defined as a 75 percent of 

7 those people that were available and voting on 

8 that particular topic.

9 That seemed to work pretty well. 

10 Ninety percent of the time everybody is 

11 agreeing on it and then the case where you

12 have one or two people that have difficulty, 

13 they get to express their point of view. And 

14 then you basically take a vote. As long as 75 

15 percent of the ones in attendance vote in 

16 favor of it, then it can be passed onto the 

17 next level.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments 

19 on this? Tom, yes.

20 MR. COUGHLIN: Yes, Tom Coughlin. 

21 It looks like if we vote on this today we'll 

22 be earning our keep.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think you 

2 need to do that today necessarily. Oh, you 

3 actually do.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: This afternoon.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I see. 

6 Okay.

7 MR. COUGHLIN: I asked that 

8 question because I wondered if that would 

9 happen today.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Glad we 

11 clarified that. Tom, go ahead.

12 MR. COUGHLIN: Do we get it in 

13 writing so we can view it before we vote on 

14 it?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm sure we could 

16 write it up, yes.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Over lunch.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Over lunch, yes.

19 MR. COUGHLIN: Okay.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Lunch is always a 

21 good -- When people get hungry, they --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Kelley, go ahead 
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1 please.

2 MS. KLINE: This is for -- These 

3 will be the ground rules for this group that 

4 we're not touching the work group.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

6 MS. KLINE: Okay.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So additional 

8 comments or thoughts? I'm about to restate 

9 what's on the table. Additional thoughts or 

10 comments?

11 (No verbal response.)

12 What's on the table is a quorum 

13 would be 75 percent of the members of the 

14 committee which would be eight. And that to 

15 establish consensus in this case, it would be 

16 75 percent of those in attendance. That's the 

17 way I guess John said it. 

18 Yes, Kent.

19 MR. PETERSON: Just to be clear is 

20 it 75 percent of those in attendance or 

21 casting a vote?

22 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: I think it 
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1 would be casting a vote. I mean if you're on 

2 the phone or.

3 MR. PETERSON: It was just 

4 mentioned earlier someone may decide they want 

5 to abstain from the vote.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Good point.

7 MR. CASKEY: For the official 

8 policy that we deal with, basically it's those 

9 that are voting. So the abstains are not 

10 counted basically.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I think 

12 that's a good clarification. Seventy-five 

13 percent of those casting a vote. Okay.

14 Yes, Andrew.

15 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Just to pause 

16 on that for a moment. That means if I'm there 

17 and I'm part of a quorum and we're just at 

18 quorum, I can't abstain without the whole 

19 meeting being off. That removes the 

20 possibility that if you're on the cusp you 

21 could lose the option of abstaining without 

22 scrubbing the whole meeting.
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1 MR. CASKEY: I don't think that's

2 true. Once quorum is established, the meeting 

3 has a quorum.

4 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Okay.

5 MR. CASKEY: And then when you 

6 take a vote after that and transact business, 

7 not all of those people that were needed to 

8 establish a quorum have to vote.

9 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Okay.

10 MR. CASKEY: They can abstain. I 

11 mean that's an official response.

12 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Yes.

13 MR. CASKEY: You participated. 

14 You just didn't vote yes or no.

15 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Once a quorum 

16 is established, the meeting is called and it's 

17 in order until it's adjourned.

18 MR. CASKEY: Right.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 

20 thoughts on this?

21 (No verbal response.)

22 So we've also heard from Tom that 
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1 we'd like to see it written up. I don't think 

2 we want to take final action on that right 

3 now. Maybe we do that immediately after 

4 lunch. Good. I guess you're moving towards 

5 making your first decision.

6 Are there other things that we 

7 should try and do before we go to lunch? It's 

8 almost time.

9 John.

10 MR. CASKEY: I'm not sure what's 

11 driving this, but for whatever reason my gut 

12 feeling is that if we are this advisory group 

13 that we should really provide guidance to the 

14 working groups. And I think it just for me 

15 personally feels a little bit weird letting 

16 the working group decide their own rules 

17 relative to quorum or consensus and things 

18 like that.

19 It seems like we would sort of 

20 adopt one for the steering group and then that 

21 would be utilized for the working groups. 

22 That's just one of my ideas.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Kelley.

2 MS. KLINE: Yes, I agree with 

3 that. And I guess I had one question in 

4 thinking through that. I'm wondering what the 

5 distribution for transformers. Was it 

6 basically all interested parties who wanted a 

7 seat at the table got a seat at the table? 

8 And I think that has some bearing on it 

9 whether it's all comers versus a selected 

10 committee in terms of what consensus would be.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan.

12 MR. COHEN: With the committee on 

13 transformers, there's a limitation. We're 

14 also functioning on something called the 

15 Negotiated Rulemaking Act which has a 

16 limitation of 25 members for doing a 

17 negotiated rulemaking. So there's a 

18 limitation for the number of people on the 

19 committee.

20 That said, we tried to ensure that 

21 the committee was and I think we did achieve a 

22 committee that balanced by having a membership 
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1 of all the various interests. So some 

2 interested parties were represented by other 

3 interested parties. The attempt was though to 

4 have every interest represented.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew.

6 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: I would say 

7 that this committee could provide some 

8 guidance, but I don't think we can set the 

9 rules. And in part that's because we don't 

10 know what the makeup of those working 

11 committees are going to be.

12 Department ultimately has the 

13 final say of what that makeup is. So it may 

14 turn out to be that everybody on the committee 

15 -- this isn't going to happen. But it could 

16 be all appliance manufacturers and no one from 

17 the communities that I work with.

18 MS. KLINE: Or visa versa.

19 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Right. Or visa 

20 versa. I'm just saying we don't control that. 

21 And since we don't control that, I don't 

22 think we should set the decision rule. 
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1 Because I might want a different decision rule 

2 if I'm one of 25 and I don't see anybody else 

3 who I consider to be in my caucus. Then I see 

4 if I'm half that's in my caucus.

5 MR. COHEN: Just to be clear, that 

6 shouldn't happen because we have an obligation 

7 to make sure that the committee is balanced.

8 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Also don't know 

9 exactly how you're going to balance is. And 

10 the balance is going to -- I think in the case 

11 of transformers we had four or five different 

12 caucuses so to speak or interests that were 

13 represented who had varying interests. You 

14 had manufacturers. You had utility companies. 

15 You had suppliers of materials to 

16 manufacture. You had efficiency advocates. 

17 So you had quite a -- Not everybody would have 

18 been comfortable with the rules that we're 

19 going to invoke for this committee.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: John.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I was just going 

22 to note that remember at least one of you all 
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1 will be on the working group committee. I'm 

2 not saying you can impose your will, but I 

3 think you could bring to the working group 

4 what ASRAC's preference is how they define 

5 consensus.

6 But I agree with what was just 

7 said. I don't think you want to have a rule 

8 hard and fast right now about what the working 

9 group should decide because I think it's 

10 important. Each product will have a different 

11 makeup of the group.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: John.

13 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: I'm fine with 

14 that. I would just to find a way to 

15 memorialize it that each time a working group 

16 is chartered that part of the standard work be 

17 an explanation for how ASRAC has defined 

18 consensus at this level as a guidepost out 

19 there. And then obviously the working group 

20 is free to do what they think they can do.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Tom.

22 MR. COUGHLIN: Tom Coughlin. 
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1 Maybe that's our first working group not to 

2 labor it, but to provide a guideline to the 

3 chairs for these working groups.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other 

5 thoughts at this point?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's 

7 what we're here for, right. I think that's 

8 our job, not a working group's job. But 

9 that's what we would do.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Those are all 

11 good ideas and I'm making notes about those. 

12 Okay.

13 Yes, Kent.

14 MR. PETERSON: Doug, in my 

15 experience, consensus is not just about a vote 

16 at the end of the work. It's really about a 

17 process. And at a working group level the 

18 materially effected parties really have to 

19 have their say and to be given a chance that 

20 they give the input before the decision or the 

21 vote is actually made.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.
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1 MR. PETERSON: So I think it's a 

2 lot more difficult than just saying this is 

3 what ASRAC's done. Go and take it. It really 

4 is more of a process that's laid out for the 

5 working groups so they're all following a 

6 similar process. They may choose to have a 

7 difference in what their final vote is in 

8 reaching that consensus.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. To follow on 

10 what Andrew was saying about minority voices 

11 not being fully heard, that sort of thing, 

12 surely it's the obligation of the Department 

13 to try and compose any working group that's 

14 got a fair representation of major 

15 stakeholders the traditional justification for 

16 consensus that is everyone can live with it. 

17 The negotiators work very hard to accommodate 

18 a minority voice that could stop them from 

19 achieving that consensus. You can sometimes 

20 get a more fully vetted outcome, a more robust 

21 sort of result if everybody knows that that 

22 one person who's negotiating hard might derail
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1 the entire consensus. I just offer that as a 

2 small reflection on the justification 

3 historically for every one in the room saying 

4 yes.

5 Did you want in here, David?

6 DR. HUNGERFORD: This is David 

7 Hungerford. I think you just articulated what 

8 I wanted to bring up. I would have said it a 

9 little differently. It's actually a tool to 

10 force the majority to consider the perspective 

11 of the minority in coming to a final decision 

12 by preventing them from being able to steam 

13 roll past minority opinion.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: This has been a 

15 good discussion. And we're just about to go 

16 to lunch. Before we go lunch, John and 

17 others.

18 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Yes. I guess I 

19 would just reflect on that and say I think the 

20 procedure we have has or we may have I think 

21 well accommodates that. I think the issue 

22 with unanimity which I would encourage you to 
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1 working group to think about is does that lead 

2 to gridlock or not, recognizing that whether 

3 the working group comes to a decision or not 

4 DOE is going to act anyway.

5 So it's not like the working group 

6 is blocking DOE action. DOE is going to act. 

7 So the question is can there be something 

8 productive that comes out of a working group 

9 that can help inform that decision.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments 

11 before we go to lunch?

12 (No verbal response.)

13 At lunch, we'll work to write up 

14 this. When we return from lunch, we'll have 

15 something printed off for you to look at and 

16 move toward making a decision on that. And 

17 also immediately following lunch, thoughts and 

18 discussion on the things that ASRAC would 

19 recommend be considered in the negotiated 

20 rulemaking context. 

21 Did I say that sufficiently? Yes, 

22 I did. Okay.
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1 It just about takes an hour 

2 minimum for those of you -- I think all of you 

3 are familiar with the Forrestal Building 

4 pretty much. And a whole bunch of us will 

5 climb on the elevator and go down to the 

6 ground floor and go about 100 yards that-a-way 

7 to a big cafeteria. There is also a Subway 

8 shop on the ground floor just about underneath 

9 us on the far side of the hall. But I would 

10 recommend the big cafeteria.

11 And so let's try and resume at 

12 1:00 p.m. And we had a really good start on 

13 the morning. A pleasure to have you here with 

14 us and we'll see you back here at 1:00 p.m.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

16 matter went off the record at 11:58 a.m. and 

17 resumed at 1:11 p.m.)

18

19

20

21

22
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1

2

3
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 (1:11 p.m.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's 

4 resume. Please take your seats. 

5 Okay. We had a very productive 

6 discussion this morning, and I thought we'd 

7 start off the afternoon reviewing what you 

8 collectively created as draft decisionmaking 

9 rules. 

10 Moving from there, as reflected in 

11 the agenda, wanted to have maybe a general 

12 conversation about identifying how the initial 

13 committee efforts might best facilitate 

14 program activities. And then going from there 

15 to perhaps some more specifics, possible 

16 ideas, opportunities for the committee 

17 consider for working group activity.

18 So, and then of course next steps, 

19 and then at the end of the day, around about 

20 3:00, there is a public comment period. So 

21 that looms ahead.

22 So what do you think about what we 
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1 wrote up here, what we interpreted that you 

2 said this morning?

3 Kelley?

4 MS. KLINE: On the third bullet, I 

5 thought we had left it that we would really be 

6 tabling the working group consensus approach 

7 for them. And I wonder how it's worded if 

8 we're implying that we are recommending to 

9 them the 75 percent/75 percent in the first 

10 couple of bullets.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Can you 

12 offer edits or --

13 MS. KLINE: Well, I guess it 

14 depends on if we think we are going to be 

15 developing guidance for the workgroups on 

16 consensus, I might say something like, 

17 "ASRAC's to be developed, suggested consensus 

18 approach," or something like that, just 

19 something to make clear we are not necessarily 

20 adopting the 75 percent/75 percent for the 

21 workgroups.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: This is consistent 
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1 with your comment, John, I think. Isn't it? 

2 Weigh in here.

3 MR. CASKEY: Actually, what she is 

4 talking about is different than what I had 

5 mentioned earlier.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

7 MR. CASKEY: And my -- well, I 

8 don't want to muddle what she is thinking 

9 about.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Kelley, I lost 

11 track of where we --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: One thing -- so 

13 the way I read that, Kelley, is just that 

14 whoever the ASRAC representative is on the 

15 working group would provide an explanation of 

16 our consensus approach to the working group. 

17 We wouldn't necessarily impose it 

18 on them, but we would provide the full 

19 explanation of what we did and why we did it. 

20 And then they can adopt it, they can change 

21 it as they see fit, within each working group. 

22 But it would be the responsibility of whoever 
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1 the ASRAC representative is to do that for 

2 each working group.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Guidance for their 

4 consideration.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's how I read 

6 that. I don't know if anybody else agrees.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Any changes?

8 MR. CASKEY: So one way to 

9 wordsmith that, if you want to wordsmith it, 

10 would be, "ASRAC representative member would 

11 provide," and strike the word "explicit" -- I 

12 think that's a little bit sort of hard --

13 "provide explanation of ASRAC's consensus 

14 approach, as a starting point for the working 

15 group to develop their own consensus 

16 definition" or rulemaking process, or whatever 

17 you want to call it.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Definition. That 

19 sounds great.

20 MR. CASKEY: Okay. That's great.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

22 MR. CASKEY: Leave the 
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1 parenthetical?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. good. 

3 Stay right there. Good, good. Okay.

4 We will review all of these of 

5 course before we do anything with them. And 

6 then, John, you had an additional point.

7 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. It's not a big 

8 deal, but on the second bullet, for me 

9 personally, I would love if we could say that 

10 our objective is really to develop a consensus 

11 where everyone in the activity, you know, 

12 fully supports the recommendation or the 

13 division. 

14 And if that is not accomplished 

15 with a -- like the idea that everyone can live 

16 with it, if that's not accomplished, then our 

17 backup plan would have this 75 percent of 

18 members casting a vote constitutes a 

19 consensus.

20 DR. HUNGERFORD: I agree. That 

21 should be the second bullet, is the goals, and 

22 then have this as a sub to that. This is what 
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1 we do if we can't do that.

2 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, you could 

3 say the objective is to seek consensus among 

4 all ASRAC members. 

5 MR. CASKEY: Yes. Unanimity?

6 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: I think -- no. 

7 I think the objective is to seek consensus 

8 among all ASRAC voting members.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. CASKEY: But we don't know 

11 what definition of consensus we are using in 

12 that first sentence is the problem.

13 DR. HUNGERFORD: The traditional 

14 one.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, when you say 

16 --

17 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. So we're using 

18 consensus twice with two different definitions 

19 in the same --

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Like you would 

21 argue for the unanimous --

22 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. So unanimity. 
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1 I can't spell it, but I can say it.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: I can't say it. 

3 MR. CASKEY: Well, you spell it 

4 for them then.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: I can't do either.

6 MR. CASKEY: I would say the 

7 consensus is to seek unanimity among all 

8 ASRAC's voting members. 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: That works. And 

10 then just what --

11 MR. CASKEY: Yes. The objective, 

12 and if we can't meet that, then we --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Put it as a 

14 separate bullet.

15 MR. CASKEY: -- we go to --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: There you go.

17 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. Something like 

18 that. Absent that --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: There you go.

20 MR. COUSINS: I would say if 

21 unachievable --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. COUSINS: -- 75 percent.

2 MR. CASKEY: That's great.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And we just 

4 wanted to confirm one other point here, which 

5 was call-in and remote voting allowed. And I 

6 believe Dan was saying this was Jeremiah's 

7 remembering, that no proxy votes were allowed, 

8 and so just wanted to clarify that as well. 

9 But wanting to make certain that every member 

10 had access, had a chance to weigh in when a 

11 vote was called.

12 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: This is Andrew. 

13 Do we need to capture the point about, you 

14 know, that the -- if there's not unanimity 

15 that we would convey the results of the vote, 

16 or is that already captured in the by-laws 

17 somehow?

18 Okay. It's already required, so 

19 we don't have to capture it here. Okay.

20 MR. PETERSON: The second bullet, 

21 sub-bullet, what's in parentheses, abstaining 

22 does not detract from the 75 percent achieved. 
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1 Which 75 percent are we talking about?

2 MR. FREEMAN: If you abstain, it 

3 doesn't count against the 75 percent needed 

4 for --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: For consensus.

6 MR. FREEMAN: -- for the 

7 consensus.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not for quorum, 

9 for the vote.

10 MR. PETERSON: I mean, if they 

11 cast a vote, the votes -- if you abstain, you 

12 don't cast a vote. It's already said, right?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: We just wanted to 

14 be real clear.

15 MR. PETERSON: Okay.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: That was the point 

17 you made.

18 MR. PETERSON: Well, some -- the 

19 reason I'm asking the question is because 

20 someone else asked the question about whether 

21 if they abstained, does it hurt the quorum.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Right.
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1 MR. PETERSON: And that is also 75 

2 percent.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Yeah.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: This could maybe be 

6 more elegantly worded, but is the content -- I 

7 think most of the content is there? Yes. 

8 John.

9 MR. CASKEY: We hadn't discussed 

10 it earlier, but this implies we either have a 

11 face-to-face or a teleconference. But do we 

12 want to specifically allow an electronic vote? 

13 You know, if we don't reach quorum on a 

14 particular issue, do we want to allow some 

15 sort of electronic vote?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I think 

18 that's -- remote, to me, suggested something 

19 like that, but do you want to write, slash 

20 "electronic"? Right?

21 MR. CASKEY: For me, there are two 

22 different issues. You know, the call-
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1 in/remote means that if everybody is meeting 

2 in this room and I'm sick in a hospital bed, I 

3 can call in and vote yea or nay.

4 But in addition to that, there is 

5 a process where if you don't achieve a quorum 

6 or a consensus at that meeting, then two weeks 

7 from now we could send out an email for people 

8 to vote electronically. And every one of the 

9 members would vote electronically. You 

10 wouldn't have like 10 people here and one 

11 person sending an electronic note voting yea 

12 or nay.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Would that work for 

14 you? Yeah. So let's add the word 

15 "electronic" slash --

16 MR. CASKEY: Again, for me I'm 

17 saying that's a whole separate bullet.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So put "and." 

19 Call-in/remote and electronic voting, so they 

20 are two separate things, or --

21 MR. CASKEY: Or just that if 

22 desired, we, you know, have the opportunity to 
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1 do electronic vote or something.

2 MR. PETERSON: As opposed to 

3 having a meeting entirely, you're saying to 

4 send out an email to --

5 MR. CASKEY: Right.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

7 MR. PETERSON: I just have a 

8 question relative to that. Does that have to 

9 be open to the public? I would think the vote 

10 would have to be public.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I would 

12 think.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be 

14 webinar. Well, I don't know.

15 MR. CASSIDY: On the first bullet, 

16 I was wondering if it wouldn't be better to 

17 just say, "Eight members constitutes a 

18 quorum."

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the problem 

20 is, like what he said earlier, that if we have 

21 two spots vacant, because of whatever reason, 

22 then now you are at eight of nine. Is that 
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1 really what you mean? Or can the 75 percent 

2 flux with your full percent of membership?

3 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: You know, 

4 letting it flux would be an attempt that would 

5 put pressure on the Department to keep the 

6 seats filled. So that could be good. The 

7 problem I see -- would be worried about -- a 

8 working group puts in all this hard word, and 

9 then we don't have -- we can't form a quorum 

10 to approve it, because John couldn't get some 

11 paperwork through the HR office. That would 

12 be what I would worry about.

13 MR. CASSIDY: Okay. Yeah, sure. 

14 But I wonder if -- you know, what's the 

15 minimum size you can have and still call this 

16 a committee. So not to make this into a big 

17 thing, but, you know, the reason that I 

18 brought it up was the 75 percent is used twice 

19 and it was confusing. And if you don't need 

20 to say 75 percent, and you can say eight 

21 members minimum is a quorum, then there is no 

22 confusion. It's very clear.
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1 MR. FREEMAN: We are required to 

2 fill the 12 seat -- "approximately 12," is how 

3 it's worded in the charter, and that according 

4 to Wayne Gordon -- he was here this morning 

5 with you guys -- that is plus or minus like 

6 one or two people. So we have to keep the 

7 seats at least to 10, as required, but we of 

8 course will do our best to keep the full 12 

9 seats full.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So what do you --

11 do you want to press your point or --

12 MR. CASSIDY: I'll leave it stand. 

13 It has been decided what we want to do.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: If this committee 

15 decides three months from now, six months from 

16 now, they want to change this as you're making 

17 rules, can they do that?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's --

19 as long -- now, there's two different changes 

20 you could be talking about. So one could be 

21 changing the charter at some point to add more 

22 members or reduce members, whatever. But I 
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1 think this the group can decide to change its 

2 own rules. Sure. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be my 

4 guess. Okay. John?

5 MR. CASKEY: One hopefully final 

6 thing. Do we want to explicitly state that we 

7 follow the Robert's Rules of Order? Or is

8 that applied? Or is that already in a DOE 

9 statute somewhere that, you know, if push 

10 comes to shove we'd go back to the Robert's 

11 Rules of Order?

12 MR. FREEMAN: Rephrase the 

13 question.

14 MR. CASKEY: Should we -- well, I 

15 guess one question is, do we, as ASRAC, plan 

16 to follow the Robert's Rules of Order? And if 

17 we do, does that need to be stated here, or is 

18 that just implied in all U.S. organizations or 

19 something?

20 MR. FREEMAN: I'm not familiar 

21 with what the Robert's Rules of Orders. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: My experience with 
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1 groups like this is that Robert's Rules aren't 

2 usually needed. It's a collegial back and 

3 forth, and everybody gets a chance to say what 

4 they need to say, and respect is given as 

5 needed to get those viewpoints said. And it's 

6 easy enough to call the motion or have a vote 

7 when the time has come.

8 So, okay? Yes, Andrew?

9 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Back to the 

10 final point on this proxy or electronic 

11 voting. I would -- you know, I think that 

12 we'd benefit from the interaction, the 

13 discussion, before we bring it to a vote, in 

14 that we know sort of where people -- you know, 

15 what are the pros and cons that is going to be 

16 discussed as opposed to it has just been put 

17 out to an email, here's a proposal, you need 

18 to vote.

19 So in your formulation, John, 

20 would that discuss have already happened? Or 

21 could you envision a vote when there was never 

22 a discussion, it just was put out to a vote? 
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1 Do you know what I mean? So how is that 

2 staged?

3 MR. CASKEY: I mean, I -- well, 

4 two things. One, I don't feel strongly about 

5 this. But, two, from my experience, sometimes 

6 we might get a recommendation from a group, 

7 and it's like we come up with a question and 

8 we just ask them do we want to go back and 

9 wordsmith their recommendation, and then we 

10 don't need to meet again to review it. 

11 You know, if there was a concern 

12 and they fixed it, then it might come back and 

13 we could just send it out for electronic vote 

14 and say, "Oh, yeah, that's exactly the way we 

15 wanted them to fix it." Does that make sense? 

16 It would keep us from having to have another 

17 meeting. 

18 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: The way this is 

19 -- I guess the way this is phrased is --

20 doesn't the site capture that? So that -- now 

21 ASRAC can perform electronic voting. You 

22 know, if we're just sending an email out to 
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1 people, that's not really helping us to obtain 

2 objective number two. Right? If it's the 

3 major proposal that we haven't talked about 

4 previously. So, you know, we --

5 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. I only 

6 pictured doing that after we had like a face7 to-face meeting or a teleconference on certain 

8 topics and we needed to clean up some wording 

9 or something like that just to get the 

10 progress made before the next meeting we could 

11 do an electronic --

12 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Time-saving 

13 thing as opposed to --

14 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. That was my 

15 thought.

16 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Right. So I 

17 guess I -- that's not captured in the way 

18 we've written this, so --

19 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. I mean, I 

20 would support something like that.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: ASRAC can perform 

22 electronic voting to conclude business that 
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1 the committee had already discussed. 

2 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Okay. That 

3 works.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah?

5 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: For me.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes?

7 DR. HUNGERFORD: Are we -- is 

8 there something in the charter that requires 

9 us to reach consensus? Is that why we're 

10 defining "consensus" as a majority? Because 

11 otherwise it says -- it still reads to me like 

12 we're saying yellow is green.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: It's close on the 

14 spectrum.

15 (Laughter.)

16 DR. HUNGERFORD: But it seems like 

17 the objective is to seek consensus. If 

18 consensus is not achievable, a majority of 75 

19 percent may act.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I thought I 

21 heard Dan say that this is called consensus, 

22 this decisionmaking rule. That's what I 
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1 thought I heard him say.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: The wording 

3 throughout much of the documentation has the 

4 word consensus in it. However you define 

5 that, which is what we are trying to do here. 

6 So I think you're getting caught up on a 

7 word, right? I mean --

8 DR. HUNGERFORD: Well, I like 

9 words to mean what they mean in the 

10 dictionary.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me give you 

12 another minute to just look at this and ponder 

13 it. Yes, Tom?

14 MR. COUGHLIN: Tom Coughlin. 

15 Although it is stated elsewhere, I'm just 

16 wondering if right here we might want to put

17 another bullet that kind of closes this --

18 what if we don't reach consensus, what happens 

19 there?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Is that in your 

21 guidance?

22 MR. COUGHLIN: It is in the 
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1 guidance, but I didn't know whether we wanted 

2 to restate it here. Kind of just closes this 

3 --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: The guidance says 

5 something like -- John, help me here, 

6 actually, if the -- yeah. Okay. I think in 

7 this discussion we are clear that this 

8 committee seeks unanimity, and you would hope 

9 to guide the working groups to seek unanimity. 

10 And noting that occasionally one 

11 person or two persons can stop that, and 

12 they're dug in, that you don't want to be 

13 stopped entirely by that kind of an activity. 

14 So this is a pragmatic way to have a super15 majority of individuals that want to carry 

16 this forward and move the process ahead. So 

17 that's the logic.

18 So are we all -- are we 

19 comfortable with this? Yes? So the way I 

20 would do this as a mediator would be, do we 

21 have anyone who dissents from accepting this 

22 -- these bullet points, this -- these 
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1 decisionmaking rules for ASRAC?

2 Okay. Seeing none, 

3 congratulations. You've made your first 

4 decision.

5 (Applause.)

6 I would like to shift, and it does 

7 seem -- where you work, what you do, there is 

8 a lot that you see in your participation of 

9 the appliance standards process, the normal 

10 process, the ongoing regulatory process.

11 So the question is, as members of 

12 ASRAC, would you suggest ways that this 

13 committee can best facilitate those program 

14 activities? And we'll start with that as kind 

15 of a general discussion, and then move from 

16 there into possible ideas looking ahead 

17 perhaps for negotiated rulemaking or other 

18 forms.

19 John?

20 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Can you just 

21 clarify what this first step is?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: If you look at the 
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1 agenda, at the 1:00 time block in black, it 

2 says, "Committee Discussion: Identifying 

3 Initial Committee Efforts to Best Facilitate 

4 Program Activities."

5 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And to me that --

7 Ashley? Yeah, but I was wanting to do more 

8 general before we do more specific.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think they are 

10 kind of intertwined. I mean, I think what 

11 we're looking for and what we were thinking 

12 about is open up the floor to the initial 

13 committee first for ideas for either process14 related type things or specific rulemaking15 type things, or cross-cutting type things that 

16 we think would be right for potential forming 

17 of working groups at this point. So --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?

19 MR. COUSINS: Yeah. I have a 

20 comment, a question around process, and it 

21 really doesn't have anything directly to do 

22 with working groups. But when we were here --
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1 earlier this morning we had a discussion about 

2 the process, the NOPR process and what 

3 happens. And we talked about, you know, 

4 development of the standards and the charge 

5 that the DOE has with regard to where the 

6 thresholds we know need to be -- responsibly 

7 need to be set.

8 And when we talk about the 

9 economics of it, it was pointed out that if 

10 there is a positive net present value, you 

11 know, with regard to whether or not that 

12 particular threshold moves forward, so we had 

13 this discussion about process. But I would 

14 like for this committee to have the 

15 opportunity to discuss -- as a part of the 

16 negotiated rulemaking, discuss factors that 

17 may be outside of those boundaries. Now, I 

18 don't know if that's off-limits legally or 

19 not. 

20 Now, to be specific about it, if 

21 there's a threshold that wants to be set, some 

22 efficiency threshold, and the process vets it 
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1 out and there is a positive net present value 

2 that's associated with that threshold, but the 

3 members of this committee feel that it is 

4 still irresponsible, I wonder if this is a 

5 forum that we could have discussion beyond 

6 that. Is that something that can be 

7 considered?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think I am going 

9 to try to capture what Steve is saying. So 

10 what this curve is is the net present value of 

11 benefit by efficiency level in a rulemaking, 

12 let's say. So generally speaking, you start 

13 at -- the baseline there is no -- there is 

14 nothing. Nothing happens. 

15 You go up, this would be the point 

16 where you would have maximum net present 

17 value. Generally speaking -- and it's not 

18 always the case, but, you know, the max tech 

19 solution would be so -- could be so expensive 

20 that you get negative net present value. So 

21 that's this point here.

22 What Dan was describing was the 
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1 legal sort of point, you know, would be this 

2 -- maximizing the energy efficiency at a point 

3 of positive net present value. So that --

4 this is the point that Dan described.

5 Now, what you can negotiate in the 

6 working groups is any of these solution sets, 

7 right? Even if you wanted that one, you could 

8 negotiate that.

9 MR. COUSINS: Right. Right.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: But, you know, the 

11 negotiated outcome would be that seventh 

12 factor that Dan described. It's other factors 

13 that the Secretary deems important to the 

14 rulemaking.

15 And so when you guys are 

16 negotiating in working groups, it's not just 

17 this, but you are talking about what happens 

18 to small businesses. There could be a whole 

19 host of other ideas that you are negotiating 

20 against.

21 MR. COUSINS: Right. And so 

22 whatever recommendations come out of that 
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1 working group, which may represent something 

2 that is, say, on the lower edge of this curve, 

3 is something that could potentially be pushed 

4 forward in the rulemaking.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I mean, I 

6 think that was true for transformers, that we 

7 didn't get -- we didn't get a point over here 

8 for medium voltage, right?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew?

10 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Yeah. I guess 

11 I would say -- and just to elaborate on what I 

12 -- my experience is that even in the contested 

13 rulemakings DOE has selected levels any -- all 

14 over that curve that John has drawn, except 

15 for to the right, except for below the origin. 

16 Okay? In my experience. And they've been 

17 all over that curve.

18 And I think the point that they 

19 have actually -- if I had to go over 30 years 

20 of experience in looking at the rulemakings, 

21 the point most commonly chosen has been the 

22 apex of that curve. Okay? Most commonly 
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1 chosen.

2 So the -- you know, it is a --

3 even in a contested rulemaking, it's those 

4 seven factors, it's not just this one factor 

5 -- this factor kind of just -- as I heard it 

6 described this morning is the starting point, 

7 but it's not the ending point.

8 MR. COUSINS: Okay. That's good. 

9 And the reason why I asked is I said outside 

10 of the financial/economic factors. My 

11 thinking is that it may very well be that 

12 where you are along that curve may change the 

13 landscape of commerce, where -- okay, whereas 

14 a small business factors in on this side, but 

15 if you're on that side then small business can 

16 no longer be involved in dealing with that 

17 commodity.

18 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Right.

19 MR. COUSINS: Or, you know, it's 

20 things of that nature that I was --

21 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: And the other 

22 piece of this is -- there's the small business 
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1 piece of it, and then there also are the 

2 external benefits, right, that aren't showing 

3 up in that curve, too. 

4 The way it's drawn doesn't take 

5 into account external benefits in terms of 

6 environmental benefits. They aren't on that 

7 curve. So they're -- it goes -- it does cut 

8 both ways in terms of where you would end. So 

9 those environmental benefits are in that other 

10 factor as well. Peak demand on utility grids, 

11 that's on that curve. All of those factors 

12 need to be part of what the working group

13 would consider.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So what are your 

15 ideas? What are you thinking that the 

16 Advisory Committee should suggest that working 

17 groups consider, for example? Kelley?

18 MS. KLINE: As we are talking 

19 about really cross-cutting ideas, right? 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

21 MS. KLINE: I had one. Thinking 

22 that we talked a little earlier today about 
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1 test procedure complexity and how, you know, 

2 there's a lot of test procedure development, a 

3 lot of questions I think around interpretation 

4 of current test procedures.

5 And I think DOE has done some 

6 really good things over the past couple of 

7 years. I'm thinking about like a correlation 

8 summit that we did once on like clothes 

9 dryers, and I forget -- several other 

10 products. Some of the ways that DOE is 

11 communicating guidance is very good I think.

12 But I think there might be an 

13 opportunity there to think about how there is 

14 a uniform or consistent way to make sure test 

15 procedures are getting interpreted the same 

16 way and for questions to be kind of vetted and 

17 raised, because I think there is a lot of 

18 examples these days about test procedure 

19 interpretation questions.

20 So that's the thought. It's not 

21 really fully formed. But if there's something 

22 that this committee could work on to make some 
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1 recommendations around that, I think that 

2 might be beneficial.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other ideas? 

4 Areas that this committee or working group 

5 might pursue? Tom Eckman?

6 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. This is along 

7 the lines of test procedures as well. I think 

8 it's cross-cutting. One of the stumbling 

9 blocks we have in many of the rulemakings is 

10 the lack of what I'll call duty cycle 

11 information on the product, that either is 

12 current or field-based or what have you.

13 So the test procedure development14 laced example which Charlie Stevens brought 

15 in, the number of cycles of dryer use in the 

16 northwest in 50 homes compared to the current 

17 test procedure, it was two-to-one 

18 differential.

19 Well, that's a big air band to 

20 negotiate around. And we have the same thing 

21 on icemakers. We don't know what the duty 

22 cycle is. How much ice do they make? They 
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1 have a capacity, but how much ice do they 

2 really make? 

3 And every time we stumble, because 

4 that information isn't readily available, not 

5 current, and I think some workgroup that can 

6 put together a scope of work that says, "These 

7 are the ones that are coming down the pike. 

8 How are we going to get that information in 

9 front of the freight train before we have to 

10 make a decision about either the test 

11 procedure or use of that information for life12 cycle costing?" Because it also involves the 

13 life-cycle cost analysis.

14 This is the duty cycle with 

15 produces the kilowatt hours, not the kW.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So the task is 

17 something like scope or anticipate these in 

18 advance.

19 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. And figure 

20 out, you know, how is that research going to 

21 get done? Where is it? If it's not being 

22 done now, where is it going to be done? So 
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1 that it doesn't hold up a testing procedure, 

2 and it doesn't hold up a life-cycle.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MR. ECKMAN: You know, we had the 

5 same thing on refrigerators. What's the 

6 icemaker cycle?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Scope or 

8 anticipate the research that's needed. Okay. 

9 Good.

10 Other thoughts? John, yes.

11 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: There is a more 

12 specific one that is real-time before the 

13 Department now, and that is on the HVAC and 

14 commercial refrigeration world, a potential 

15 negotiated rulemaking on certification and 

16 enforcement.

17 MS. KLINE: But that wouldn't be 

18 unique to HVAC or --

19 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: The one that's 

20 on the table is.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to --

22 is that sufficient? Do you want to say a 
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1 little more about that?

2 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, this has 

3 been -- there has been at least one proposed 

4 rule on this and several discussions and 

5 consideration by the Department through a 

6 process last year to evaluate whether they 

7 should move forward with a consensus 

8 rulemaking or not. So there has been a lot of 

9 -- I mean, I'm sorry, negotiated rulemaking or 

10 not.

11 So there has been Department time 

12 invested in reaching to this point, and it 

13 really -- we now have the ASRAC, which is kind 

14 of being inserted into the process. So I 

15 think we have to formally decide whether it's 

16 a topic ripe for proceeding or not. I happen 

17 to think it is.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe we just 

19 use that as a test case. How would -- not 

20 getting into specifics, if a member pushed 

21 forward an idea like this, how would you 

22 imagine that it then proceeds? Ashley?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think we 

2 would discuss it first, but the idea would be 

3 that ultimately if this committee thinks that 

4 that is a good idea, we would vote to form a 

5 working group. And as part of that, we would 

6 discuss the initial scope of that working 

7 group as well as timeframe. And then, from 

8 there we would formally recommend DOE would 

9 act on that working group formation.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, that 

12 is one that, as John said, has been out for a 

13 while. There is an impending deadline with 

14 that one, so that's one that would go quick, 

15 if we were to form a working group.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other 

17 thoughts?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: To answer Kelley's 

19 question, just for a second, so this one 

20 probably -- well, this one probably would be 

21 -- because commercial HVAC and CRE equipment 

22 currently right now does not have to certify 
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1 -- their certification has been delayed until 

2 December 31st of this year -- I think this one 

3 should be narrower in scope in addressing that 

4 impending deadline.

5 If we wanted to open up a broader 

6 topic of certification issues for different 

7 products, I think you would do that in a 

8 separate working group just so that the 

9 potential list of issues doesn't hold up 

10 progress with this one in meeting any such 

11 deadline. At least that would be my 

12 recommendation. That's open to, obviously, 

13 any discussion.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So did I 

15 capture that? Also, plus the broader --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not 

17 recommending that. I just --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, 

19 someone else raised it.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- wanted to 

21 clarify.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: These are 
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1 possibles, right? Certification. 

2 Yes, John.

3 MR. CASKEY: This is sort of 

4 related to the first one, but it's a cross5 cutting issue, and it really deals with 

6 interpretation of test procedures and possibly 

7 other things. But, you know, the fact that we 

8 work with a wide variety of manufacturers, 

9 they interpret the test procedures and other 

10 things inconsistently.

11 But to get an answer from DOE 

12 often takes long -- no offense, often takes a 

13 long period of time. Is there some guidance 

14 that we can give to DOE that a month is the 

15 right amount of time, or two months, or some 

16 minimum -- some maximum period of time by 

17 which DOE will respond to questions associated 

18 with test procedures and other issues?

19 MS. KLINE: I think that's part of 

20 what I was trying to get at.

21 MR. CASKEY: Okay. So maybe --

22 MS. KLINE: At like whether it's 
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1 --

2 MR. CASKEY: Just sort of like an 

3 upper limit on the schedule or the turnaround 

4 time or something like that.

5 MS. KLINE: I guess I was thinking 

6 about it more in terms of what's the most

7 expeditious way for clearing up test procedure 

8 questions.

9 MR. CASKEY: Okay.

10 MS. KLINE: I wasn't thinking 

11 about it in terms of like a time limit. I was 

12 thinking about, are there better ways to get 

13 at reconciling test procedure questions when 

14 they arise?

15 MR. CASKEY: I think it's all part 

16 of that.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Great. So I'm 

18 going to say from my perspective, because a 

19 lot of them come to me -- you know, it's 

20 easier when I -- you guys asked some very 

21 open-ended questions. Sometimes they come in

22 and say, "Manufacturer A is doing this, and 
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1 Manufacturer B is doing this."

2 Other times it's, "DOE has tested. 

3 We have done it one way, and our results are 

4 showing one thing and your results are showing 

5 other things." And in some cases that is a 

6 test procedure interpretation issue.

7 It's a lot easier when we have all 

8 of the details of the processes. So maybe the 

9 best thing to do this would be to figure out a 

10 process. Some of them -- we could definitely 

11 put a timeline on it. I can tell you that not 

12 all of them can be answered through guidance 

13 or feedback right on the cusp, so there will 

14 have to be some caveat.

15 But some of them have to go 

16 through notice of rule and comment. So that's 

17 the caveat there. That's why some take longer 

18 than others, as you have seen for some of the 

19 AHAM issues.

20 But I definitely think it's worth 

21 doing now, because I probably get over a dozen 

22 test procedure questions a week for a variety 
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1 of different -- so there is no lack of them. 

2 That's for sure. Especially the more we test.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is a good 

4 start.

5 MS. KLINE: I think there may be 

6 an opportunity here where the test procedure 

7 questions may -- there may be some interplay 

8 here with the certification questions. I'm 

9 thinking about, you know, as you see upcoming 

10 certification deadlines, that's probably when 

11 you are getting a lot of test procedure 

12 questions on a particular topic. So there may 

13 be a way to kind of dovetail the two.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Other thoughts? 

15 Other ideas? Areas? Yes, Andrew.

16 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: So I think I'm 

17 just going to -- I'll put out a couple of 

18 areas where I think are possible, and these 

19 are technology-specific ideas.

20 I guess I will just start with 

21 sort of an obvious point, which is that, you 

22 know, a negotiation is not going to work 
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1 unless we have active participation by the key 

2 stakeholders. Right? So sort of a -- if we 

3 don't have enough -- if we do a Federal 

4 Register notice and no one applies, throw a 

5 party, no one comes. You know, it's not going 

6 to work. 

7 So I think, you know, a threshold 

8 point is, you know, do we have buy-in from, 

9 call them the key parties, to do a negotiated 

10 rulemaking. And at this point, I don't think 

11 we do for any of the technologies that I have 

12 been involved in in discussions on a private 

13 basis thus far. 

14 So there are two areas that are 

15 public that we have told the Department that 

16 we are in private discussions with, and those 

17 are with regard to fans and pumps. And I had 

18 lunch discussions or just in the hallway here 

19 just with HI and with AMCA -- Michael and Bob 

20 are both here -- and there is interest in 

21 pursuing those potentially. 

22 But they haven't yet gone to their 
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1 boards to see whether they've got the buy-in 

2 from their boards to do a negotiation, and I 

3 haven't consulted with the folks who are on 

4 our side of the table in those private 

5 negotiations to say, "Do we want to take those 

6 private negotiations and put them into the 

7 FACA process?"

8 There is interest, but there is 

9 not a recommendation yet from these parties 

10 that it should go there. 

11 So what I would suggest for both 

12 of those is that if there are good candidates, 

13 and that I would hope that this committee 

14 could reconvene in the not-too-distant future, 

15 say two months or so, once -- these guys just 

16 had their framework meeting last week, and to 

17 be able to reconvene in two months and say yea 

18 or nay based on having consulted DOE and the 

19 parties having consulted to say, "Do we want 

20 to put it out there into that process?"

21 There are a couple others that are 

22 out there that are in private negotiations 
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1 that may make sense. But they are all in a --

2 none of them are in a position today where we 

3 could say, "Yes, let's put it over to the --

4 into the FACA process."

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve?

6 MR. COUSINS: So we had discussion 

7 just a moment ago about the working groups and 

8 providing them guidance with regard to quorum 

9 and consensus, and so forth. 

10 And we said that those working 

11 groups can set up their own rules of -- that 

12 causes me to think if there is any reason for 

13 us as a committee to lay out ground rules, not 

14 just around, you know, what constitutes a 

15 decision, but is there a need for us to create 

16 ground rules for the working groups, or is 

17 that something that has already been done just 

18 from negotiated rulemakings that have been 

19 done -- is there already some kind of guidance 

20 that can be formulated from that? Or is it a 

21 situation that anything goes and we don't have 

22 to create anything?
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1 But I'm thinking that maybe it 

2 might be good for us to create something as a 

3 starting point for altogether new working 

4 groups on things that are in the very early 

5 process.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I'm not 

7 quite sure I know what context you're speaking 

8 of -- like guidelines. But we would establish 

9 their scope, you know, how narrow or how wide, 

10 right? We would give them a timeframe, at 

11 least an initial timeframe, to report back.

12 And then, you know, the day-to-day 

13 activities are covered by the charter, and 

14 more or less, you know, the explanation of how 

15 things are supposed to go. 

16 Now, as far as their technical 

17 discussions and that kind of stuff, I think we 

18 leave that to them, because it's going to be 

19 very different by product, or could be very 

20 different by product, but I don't know what 

21 else you are seeking other than that.

22 MR. COUSINS: Well, that's a good 
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1 point, Ashley. What I was referring to is if 

2 there is some commodity here that, you know, 

3 it's early in the process and a working group 

4 is put together and it consists of people who 

5 are new to the process -- you know, they 

6 haven't been involved in pre-bid rulemakings 

7 -- and they want to talk technology issues, 

8 like they want to talk about technologies that 

9 don't exist right now, they want to bring that 

10 into, you know, how it's going to impact the 

11 rule or technologies that are dying, and how 

12 that is going to -- I mean, is there -- does 

13 it make sense to say there are some things 

14 that are off limits? There are some things 

15 that are on limits? 

16 I mean, or should we just back 

17 away and say they can talk about anything they 

18 want to talk about. And they want to adopt a 

19 threshold or a process or a procedure around 

20 technologies that don't exist, but they want 

21 to do that -- that's -- I mean, is there any 

22 -- do we draw any boundaries? Do we don't 
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1 draw any boundaries? You know, that's kind of 

2 what I'm thinking about with regard to giving 

3 them guidance as to how they work.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I guess --

5 well, you -- somebody else can talk, but my 

6 opinion of this would be that for -- if you're 

7 talking about a specific standards rule, I 

8 mean, just pick one off the list. 

9 If we decided tomorrow to start 

10 something for automatic commercial icemakers, 

11 the preliminary analysis has been out. We 

12 were in the process of revising stuff. If we 

13 decided that that one was right for 

14 consideration, I think we let them negotiate. 

15 I mean, if you have a well-balanced 

16 committee, I don't think the outcome is going 

17 to be adopting something that is not yet 

18 commercially available, although yet, if they 

19 wanted to, they could make that recommendation 

20 to us.

21 Ultimately, we would still have 

22 our discussions, subsequent to the working 
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1 groups. I don't think we need to put specific 

2 boundaries on them like that. I have a 

3 feeling a lot of those issues will come up, 

4 you know, in the context of their own 

5 discussions.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So these are the 

7 words that I wrote up here. The DOE will --

8 they will be scoping it, and they will be 

9 populating that working group. They will 

10 essentially be convening them, and they will 

11 orient those individuals as needed based on 

12 whatever is there. Right? 

13 And then, you will establish the 

14 timeline. You will provide technical support. 

15 And if that committee -- that working group, 

16 pardon me, decided to go outside the bounds of 

17 that, then they could consider that. And 

18 though the stakeholder is present, you know, 

19 they would tend to -- right? Something like 

20 that.

21 Kelley?

22 MS. KLINE: A different topic, if 
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1 that's okay. Back under the general heading 

2 of Test Procedures, but just another thought.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

4 MS. KLINE: I'm thinking about 

5 several examples where we have test procedure 

6 changes and standards changes coming.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

8 MS. KLINE: And some of the timing 

9 issues around those, around, you know, test 

10 procedure changes leading into standard 

11 changes, what -- you know, what happens when 

12 -- test procedure changes that may impact the 

13 measured energy, and then how that gets 

14 translated to standards.

15 I think that there may be a cross16 cutting topic there, given the number of test 

17 procedure changes we are seeing and new 

18 standards that are becoming effective.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: You are thinking 

20 that perhaps there could be a schedule 

21 established that was more logical or coherent 

22 or something like that?
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1 MS. KLINE: Well, I think it's --

2 I think that's part of it, and then there 

3 could be more than that. Like what happens if 

4 a test procedure changes in advance of a new 

5 standard, and the test procedure changes the 

6 measured energy in some way. You know, what 

7 do you do with that? How does that translate 

8 into the standard? What kind of timing issues 

9 may be presented by things like that?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: It's the linkage 

11 between the two.

12 MS. KLINE: I think that's right.

13 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: I'll pick up on 

14 that. I think that's a good idea, because we 

15 have seen instances in different product 

16 categories where a standard may be set and 

17 then a test procedure is either revised or set 

18 following a standard being set, but before the 

19 standard goes into effect.

20 And the change in -- potentially a 

21 change in the test procedure could in essence 

22 change the standard. And so it's the cadence 
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1 of those that becomes important.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? Let me 

3 remind you, as a member of this committee, you 

4 can suggest things, too.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thanks, Doug. I 

6 was trying to let everybody else talk first.

7 So I think that's fine, as much as 

8 it can be generalized. But I think to take it 

9 a step further is you see what we are 

10 currently working on with this list. And even 

11 though some of the test procedures say NOPR, I 

12 mean, it's really early in some of these 

13 stages. 

14 This would be the time to convene 

15 working groups for specific products to deal 

16 with, not only test procedures, some of which 

17 may be overhaul-type test procedures, and then 

18 characterizing that potential impact to feed 

19 into standards rulemakings that either are 

20 really early as well or not yet started.

21 So if there are certain issues 

22 that we know, either our major test procedure 
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1 issues that we haven't addressed yet or other 

2 ones, this would be the time to make specific 

3 product recommendations, because 

4 characterizing those changes on an aggregated 

5 basis is going to be very difficult.

6 MS. KLINE: I think that's exactly 

7 right. I mean, it really does get to be 

8 product-specific pretty quick, and I think 

9 there is probably a few examples that are ripe 

10 right now, and then there's maybe the longer 

11 term question.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: My experience with 

13 negotiations like this is frequently they get 

14 -- they grind to a halt based on a few -- a 

15 couple of really thorny issues. And so if you 

16 could anticipate what those issues were, 

17 either in the test procedure kind -- put a 

18 little working group on it, you know, kind of 

19 sort through that and at least begin to gather 

20 the data, consistent with Tom's comment, then 

21 that would be a big advance. You wouldn't 

22 grind to a halt when you get to that point.
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1 Yes, John.

2 MR. CASKEY: Yes. I would like to 

3 see us develop some sort of process or 

4 procedures for validating the models used by 

5 the consultants and the DOE, you know, just 

6 some simple way to make sure it's in the right 

7 ballpark.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other 

9 thoughts? This is a good starting point. 

10 Yes, Andrew.

11 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: So this is a 

12 cross-cutting issue, and I'm not sure how this 

13 committee can address it. But it's a big --

14 our major concern with the program right now, 

15 which is the delays in finishing standards.

16 So the timing of standards has 

17 gotten to be a problem. I think it was 

18 referenced earlier that, you know, someone --

19 the Department, between 2006 or '07 and 2011, 

20 did a great job of sticking to its schedules 

21 for completing the new standards.

22 And over the last, say, 18 months 
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1 to two years, things have slowed down to the 

2 point now where I think there is eight 

3 standards for which there are -- DOE has 

4 missed deadlines, several of which are legal 

5 deadlines. 

6 We published an analysis last 

7 month showing that that -- those have real 

8 costs. We calculated $3.7 billion in lost net 

9 present value benefits to date, and an 

10 additional loss of $300 million a month 

11 because of the delay. So these have real 

12 implications in terms of lost savings for 

13 consumers, and in terms of environmental 

14 impacts.

15 And also, it is having real 

16 impacts on manufacturers, because folks don't 

17 know what the compliance dates are. So we had 

18 -- we negotiated privately an agreement with 

19 AHAM for new standards for dishwashers and 

20 clothes washers that were adopted last year. 

21 But had a little kerfuffle at the 

22 end because it had taken the Department so 
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1 long to get the standards done that the lead 

2 time that was anticipated by the agreement 

3 wasn't there. So the manufacturers weren't 

4 going to have as much lead time as they had 

5 thought they were going to have that they had 

6 negotiated.

7 So as a result, we had to adjust 

8 -- we had to negotiate a new effective date, 

9 and that was solved. Same thing happened with 

10 some of the HVAC products where the lead times 

11 that were anticipated by agreements weren't 

12 achieved. And this is -- so we have -- so you 

13 bought a consensus, and then the consensus 

14 starts to break down because it is not being 

15 implemented by the agency.

16 So what do we do with this? Is 

17 there anything this committee can do to 

18 address this problem, which is sort of 

19 fundamental to the program, which is that, you 

20 know, the ability to set a schedule that the 

21 government then adheres to, at least within 

22 some striking distance. Certainly cross-
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1 cutting.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So that 

3 would be kind of an active, ongoing thought 

4 process.

5 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Yeah.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Steve.

7 MR. COUSINS: Typically, in 

8 industry or in business when you go out into 

9 and you launch a new venture, and whether 

10 successful or whether it fails, afterwards you 

11 have this opportunity to examine your 

12 learnings. You know, what was good, what was 

13 bad, what should we adopt, you know, going 

14 forward in the future. How can we change our 

15 project management processes, and so forth.

16 And I know there has been a lot of 

17 work with regard to, you know, standards that 

18 has been established around these appliances. 

19 I don't know if DOE has taken a few paces 

20 back and said, "What have we learned from all 

21 of these collective efforts that might help us 

22 going forward?"
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1 Perhaps this committee would be --

2 is a mechanism to have discussion around 

3 learnings from all of these individual efforts 

4 with standards that have been established, to 

5 help the process in the future, you know, to 

6 kind of come up with a tactical approach to 

7 probably get around some of the scheduling 

8 delays that we've had.

9 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: And just to 

10 follow on to Steve's point, it's seems to me 

11 that the Department has the model, right? The 

12 model has been laid out. It is supposed to 

13 take three years. There was an effort to 

14 compress it I think to make it maybe a little 

15 shorter than that in some cases. 

16 It would be interesting to go 

17 back, as you suggest, and say, "Well, okay, so 

18 how has it worked?" We've got a bunch of data 

19 now. What and why -- and to have information 

20 and discussion about what has worked, what 

21 hasn't, where have you missed the targets, and 

22 why, and to have that dealt with in an open 
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1 forum I think would be helpful to all of the 

2 parties.

3 And that might lead to some 

4 recommendations for program improvements. 

5 Right? How do you do it differently?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. Those 

7 are good thoughts. Additional thoughts?

8 MR. CASKEY: Sure. I've always 

9 got one more idea. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Good.

11 MR. CASKEY: One of the areas I 

12 deal with is smart grid and demand response. 

13 So at some point in the future, should some of 

14 these products have inherent in them some 

15 smart grid capability or some demand response 

16 capability? Because certainly in terms of, 

17 you know, Mom and apple pie and overall 

18 efficiency, being able to respond to some of 

19 those programs are pretty important, or is 

20 pretty important.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's good. 

22 I thought I spotted one. So we've got quite 
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1 a few ideas already. I don't think the list 

2 is complete yet. Give you a chance to 

3 evaluate what's up here.

4 As you look at this list here, 

5 just for example, or we can -- we can put the 

6 test procedure list up as well. Are there any 

7 of these that strike you that they should get 

8 a boost from a working group? If it's too 

9 small to read, then it's also in your handout.

10 MR. CASSIDY: If they're at the 

11 point of like a final rule, then it's pretty 

12 late in the game, right? Is that --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

14 MR. CASSIDY: So it should be 

15 focused maybe on earlier ones, which would be 

16 framework maybe and preliminary analysis. Is 

17 that right?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be 

19 ideal.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. That was 

21 Andrew's comment earlier, that at this point 

22 there is a bunch of fact-based stuff to 
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1 consider, or at least interpreted fact-based 

2 stuff.

3 Yes, Kelley.

4 MS. KLINE: I'm just wondering if 

5 there is some sort of set of criteria we could 

6 discuss and come up with that would kind of 

7 identify rulemakings that would be best suited 

8 for a negotiated rulemaking. 

9 And I'm not familiar enough with 

10 the ones in the preliminary analysis section 

11 to tell you which ones I think should be in 

12 and out, but it might be something that we 

13 could discuss as a group and come up with some 

14 guidelines for when it would be most 

15 appropriate.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew already 

17 listed one, and all of primary stakeholders 

18 wish to participate. Wouldn't that be one?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we 

20 are going to know that, though. I mean, it is 

21 going to be hard for us to gauge that. At 

22 some point, you know, even with this idea 
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1 generation, we are going to need to open it up 

2 to the floor.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just to -- I mean, 

5 that's the whole -- and to the webinar, just 

6 to see what other people in the room --

7 because not all of us are going to be the 

8 interested parties in, you know, each of these 

9 things. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Kelley, did you 

11 have criteria in mind?

12 MS. KLINE: No. I was just 

13 thinking that might be a good exercise for the 

14 group, to come up with some --

15 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Just a friendly 

16 amendment, Doug, because I think to what you 

17 are putting what I think is -- all is a high 

18 threshold.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So critical 

21 mass is more --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
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1 MR. deLASKI: -- it's more of --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And the other thing 

3 you said, Andrew, was about the -- having work 

4 underway, having something to work with. 

5 Right? I mean, that was -- you're looking 

6 skeptical about that also.

7 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: From where I 

8 sit, that's helpful. I mean, it's not -- I 

9 mean, some folks have more data than I have, 

10 so --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Critical mass among 

12 stakeholders and preliminary analysis or some 

13 basis for discussion.

14 MR. COUSINS: These are things 

15 that we may not know until the preliminary 

16 analysis is done. But when I think about that 

17 suggestion, I think about commodities that 

18 have very low commercial volume, very small 

19 manufacturing sector, you know, very -- I 

20 mean, very small purchase community. I mean, 

21 if it's -- they might lend itself to -- for 

22 example, to negotiate a level. So that -- a 
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1 working group that is going to negotiate. 

2 And I think you were talking 

3 about, well, what would be the criteria? And 

4 I think it's possible to come up with criteria 

5 that would -- that might make things easier in 

6 the future to at least point something in that 

7 direction. I think it's a good idea. I know 

8 it -- you know, it may be difficult to do

9 unless you have some detail from a preliminary 

10 analysis. But I think there could be some 

11 criteria there.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe in the 

13 future.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, Doug, one of 

15 your criteria there is preliminary analysis. 

16 And I think that's probably a great indication 

17 if you're -- or helpful information if you are 

18 working on a standards rule. However, for 

19 some of these products, like compressors or 

20 pumps or fans or blowers, we are starting from 

21 ground zero.

22 We need to establish some type of 
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1 test procedure and metric before we can even 

2 run a preliminary analysis to give you any 

3 type of indication. I think it would be very 

4 valuable for people to come to the table prior 

5 to the preliminary analysis stage to help 

6 influence the test procedure and the measure 

7 discussion.

8 And you may not come to consensus 

9 by any means, but at least you would have 

10 discussions about what is currently being 

11 done, testing burden, that type of thing, 

12 before the Department just goes off on its own 

13 doing that type of work, putting out 

14 potentially a proposed rule and a preliminary 

15 analysis, establishing a metric and then 

16 forming a committee.

17 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Yeah. I agree. 

18 And I think I said earlier a framework or 

19 PTSD.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

21 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: And, you know, 

22 so we have been engaged in private discussions 
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1 with pumps and fans guys since before the 

2 frameworks were published.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

4 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: So I think 

5 that's -- I think you do -- for new 

6 technologies that are being part of the 

7 process for the first time, absolutely that is 

8 true. And even for products that are subject 

9 to existing standards, you can often make good 

10 progress. You need to.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

12 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Otherwise, you 

13 have the risk of getting a PTSD that yields 

14 results or data that no one has confidence in, 

15 and, therefore, you haven't formed a basis for 

16 good discussions.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. As you look 

18 at this list -- and, actually, you should --

19 as a member of this committee, you should feel

20 free to weigh in. Do some of these stand out 

21 as being candidates for a working group? Or 

22 it would be a working group with a narrow 
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1 scope perhaps.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we open it to 

3 the floor, Doug?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then we'll 

6 come back to the group to discuss?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Certainly. 

8 The floor is open.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. I mean, like 

10 --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh. Oh, yeah. 

12 Okay. So we are departing from the standard 

13 practice, and we have two microphones, and 

14 invite -- you can -- this can also serve as 

15 the public comment period I guess, perhaps, at 

16 least in part. And let's hear what 

17 individuals have to say about where ASRAC 

18 might best use this mechanism perhaps to 

19 create a working group. 

20 Please. Say your name for the 

21 record.

22 MR. MESSNER: Thank you. It's 
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1 Kevin Messner. I'm with the Association of 

2 Home Appliance Manufacturers. I just wanted 

3 to build off of the point that Kelley talked 

4 about on test procedures and standard changes. 

5 And I don't know if this is right for a 

6 working group because of the timing. 

7 We have an issue. I will go into 

8 a little detail here on how we would like to 

9 resolve, but we have seen three examples now 

10 where DOE is going through a process which is 

11 really undercutting the confidence in the 

12 standards program, which we all think is a 

13 very good program that has a lot of robust 

14 analysis that needs to be -- have confidence 

15 in.

16 So what is happening is there is 

17 test procedure changes that are happening that 

18 impact energy. And then they use a de minimis 

19 rationale to then not adjust the standard. So 

20 that is something that needs to be thought of 

21 and understood in an open and transparent way, 

22 how the use of de minimis is being applied.
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1 But then, to even go further, what 

2 is happening is we have as manufacturers this 

3 very key principle of the three-year lead-in 

4 time. So when there is a standard being 

5 finalized, the manufacturers have three years 

6 to invest, retool, redesign in their product, 

7 to ensure that when there is a federal 

8 standard becomes -- the compliance date for 

9 the standard happens, they have three years to 

10 make sure they can sell products in the U.S.

11 And when a standard change -- a 

12 test procedure happens in the middle of that 

13 three-year lead-in period, it changes energy 

14 and uses de minimis so there is no crosswalk. 

15 It completely undercuts a core process of the 

16 three-year lead-in, which --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: The adjustment 

18 period.

19 MR. MESSNER: Exactly. That 

20 three-year -- it's a three-year lead-in period 

21 to -- yes, to redesign and -- redesign your 

22 product. And not only to even add insult to 
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1 injury, it then also prevents the 

2 grandfathering provisions and the safe harbor 

3 provisions, that if you do do a test procedure 

4 in a normal situation where there isn't a 

5 standard change happening, then there is a 

6 grandfathering provision where if you 

7 redesigned a product there is not just a test 

8 procedure that happens every year or every 

9 day, an extreme case, and then your product is 

10 out of compliance because of this -- this 

11 impacts energy.

12 So it is a larger issue. AHAM is 

13 working on a proposal to try to talk through. 

14 And we want to -- we will want to talk to 

15 others to try to gain increased support for 

16 that and ultimately hopefully have DOE 

17 implement it. 

18 I don't know if it's right for a 

19 sub-group, because we are operating on an 

20 immediate issue with a clothes dryer test 

21 procedure. That is the third time that they 

22 have done this for our products that we need 
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1 to address in a more timely fashion than maybe 

2 what a working group would allow. 

3 But I just wanted to raise that to 

4 the ASRAC as a potential something to think 

5 about, and maybe in the next meeting we might 

6 have something more of substance to bring to 

7 the table for consideration.

8 But it is a process that doesn't 

9 just impact AHAM products. It impacts the 

10 whole standards process overall. So any 

11 solution we come up with it would not be just 

12 home appliance specific.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, 

14 Kevin. And that's another pathway, isn't it, 

15 for any association or any interested party to 

16 bring a proposal or something to ASRAC, right? 

17 Rather than ASRAC doing the initiating. So 

18 this is for them to consider. Okay. Thank 

19 you.

20 Please, sir. Your name for the 

21 record.

22 MR. ASDAL: Certainly. Bob Asdal, 
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1 Executive Director of the Hydraulic Institute. 

2 I'd like to address this issue of the working 

3 group and the criteria for establishing 

4 working groups. 

5 As Andrew mentioned before, I 

6 think the pump industry -- and we represent --

7 Hydraulic Institute represents the pump 

8 industry -- would certainly need to consider 

9 how a working group gets established, how 

10 balance is achieved, the extent to which the 

11 industry will be represented. And I think 

12 those are issues that clearly this committee 

13 has, I would think, authority to establish.

14 And to the extent that that 

15 authority can permeate across all working 

16 groups, so that there are some consistent 

17 protocols, consistent protocols, so that every 

18 industry affected, every interested party 

19 affected, would know how a working group is 

20 established, would be a very valuable thing 

21 for this group to establish.

22 Number two, we have had some 
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1 ongoing negotiations, if you will, private 

2 negotiations with the energy efficiency 

3 advocates for some period of time. The pump 

4 industry has drawn from its limited resources 

5 a number of experts, and those experts we 

6 would consider as ongoing candidates to be 

7 involved in a -- if you will, a reg neg 

8 process like this.

9 So the other question -- and, 

10 again, an issue for this committee -- is the 

11 issue of the extent to which an association, a 

12 trade association in this case, can nominate 

13 individuals to the U.S. Department of Energy, 

14 and the extent to which those nominations will 

15 be considered because there is a limited 

16 number of experts in the country on some of 

17 these complex technologies.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley can respond 

19 to that.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to 

21 attempt to at least. So the way the working 

22 groups get established, ASRAC will vote on 
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1 whether we think a working group should be 

2 established or not. Assuming the answer is 

3 yes, go forward, the recommendation will get 

4 sent to DOE.

5 Assuming DOE agrees, it would 

6 publish a Federal Register notice asking for 

7 nominations from everyone, the public. Up to 

8 25 members can be appointed to the working 

9 group for any given specific working group. 

10 One of those most be a DOE representative. 

11 One of those must be an ASRAC representative. 

12 It can be more ASRAC representatives if there 

13 is interest, but those are the minimums.

14 We will take nominations from 

15 everyone. You may nominate yourself. You may 

16 nominate an expert, anyone -- you know, 

17 manufacturers, efficiency organizations, 

18 utilities, states, whomever, can go through 

19 the process. 

20 The first cut at the working group 

21 recommendations, who is going to be on it, 

22 will be done by this committee. This 
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1 committee will look through it. They will 

2 say, "These people is who -- this is who we 

3 think should be on the working group," and 

4 they will make that recommendation to DOE.

5 It does have to be balanced. It 

6 follows the rules of something -- that require 

7 balance --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Representation.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- representation, 

10 a variety of different things from different 

11 interested parties, but there is some 

12 assurance there that it would be. But this 

13 group around the table would get the first cut 

14 at taking the -- you know, everyone that 

15 applied and making the recommendations to DOE 

16 for nominations.

17 MR. ASDAL: Well, just in follow 

18 up, I think it would be very helpful to get 

19 clarity around that issue of balance. Some of 

20 us in the room are -- some of us in the room 

21 are standard-setting organizations, standards22 developing organizations. And we operate 
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1 under ANSI, American National Standards 

2 Institute, protocols if you will for 

3 developing standards.

4 And they define balance very 

5 clearly of manufacturers, other interested 

6 parties, and users. In this case, it could be 

7 just manufacturers and other interested 

8 parties. But I think for us to consider as an 

9 industry group and as a trade association, as 

10 individual members, to consider engaging in 

11 this process, we would really need to know the 

12 definitions of balance and how the process 

13 will work in terms of bringing experts from 

14 our community to the table.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

16 MR. ASDAL: Thank you. Thank you.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, John. And 

18 then I'm going --

19 MR. CASKEY: A real quick 

20 question. So when you say, "Take it to DOE," 

21 what does that really mean? And who says yea 

22 or nay or whatever?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: You can talk. Yes. 

2 John?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, 

4 ultimately, this committee is supposed to 

5 advise, right? And I don't think -- so the 

6 recommendations would go to him, and then his 

7 management from there, right, ultimately, if 

8 it was like a standard level or something like 

9 that. So --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So I have worked 

11 with DOE for 20-plus years, and it's 

12 convoluted. That's the short answer. It 

13 first goes -- go ahead. 

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. So we'll 

15 just talk about the transformer thing again. 

16 So, you know, we got a pile of applications, 

17 and you could -- there was a stack, and so we 

18 could say, "This guy is a manufacturer. This 

19 guy is a steelmaker. This person is a 

20 utility. This person is an environmental 

21 advocate, efficiency advocate. This one is 

22 consumer interest."
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1 So we have the different piles 

2 based on the applicants. And so I think the 

3 word "balance" to me means you have 

4 representation from all of the different piles 

5 you collected, and you balance the committee. 

6 So --

7 MR. CASKEY: Yes. I -- my 

8 question wasn't related to balance per se. It 

9 was that Ashley mentioned several times that 

10 something goes to DOE. You know, like a 

11 recommendation for a working group or some 

12 other issue.

13 But what, does that mean you look 

14 at it and you say yea or nay? Or it has to go 

15 to the council or who else does it go to?

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Sure. I mean, 

17 there's lots of different parts of DOE that 

18 looks at the makeup of the committee. I would 

19 certainly be the first level.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And then it would 

21 go other places.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. It would go 
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1 up.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, for 

3 proposed standards it is going up. Right? I 

4 mean, something like that for test procedures, 

5 it would probably go to him and/or one level 

6 above him.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: And our counsel 

8 looks at it, too, obviously, and --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Counsel.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan?

11 MR. COHEN: The other thing I 

12 would point out -- this is Dan Cohen from 

13 General Counsel's office. As you may recall, 

14 John, one of the requirements in the 

15 Negotiated Rulemaking Act, which also governs 

16 when we do a negotiated rulemaking for 

17 standards, or whatever it may be -- and it's 

18 not just applying to us, that's a government19 wide statute -- is that we have a third party 

20 neutral like Doug who advises the Department 

21 on the establishment -- first of all, whether 

22 the issue could even be negotiated.
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1 One question that you have to ask 

2 is, is this an issue that parties could get 

3 together and potentially reach a consensus on? 

4 However "consensus" might be defined. You 

5 know, certain issues that's just not possible, 

6 right? There is just some things you are just 

7 -- there is people of good faith who are never 

8 going to get together on it. So you don't 

9 even bother with those. And that's the first 

10 cut that we actually ask a third party neutral 

11 to look at.

12 You'll recall in the transformer 

13 situation we hired a law professor from the 

14 University of Connecticut. And he went around 

15 and he first did an assessment. He called all 

16 of the various parties who were interested and 

17 asked a bunch of questions and said, you know, 

18 "Gee, I'm going to gather information. You 

19 know, I'm neutral to all of this. I don't 

20 really know anything about it at all. Please 

21 tell me your views."

22 We have actually -- there is a 
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1 report similar to what we did for 

2 transformers. We had someone this past summer 

3 do an issue dealing with certification and 

4 enforcement. And I know -- I saw Dave 

5 Calabresi earlier. That was an issue that 

6 applies to commercial HVAC equipment.

7 And we had someone go out, a third 

8 party neutral go out and just talk to people 

9 and say, "Could this even be negotiated?" 

10 Once that decision is made, that it's even 

11 possible to have a negotiation, then it is 

12 figuring out who can actually negotiate.

13 And, again, we have that -- the 

14 law professor from the University of 

15 Connecticut advise us on who the appropriate 

16 balanced people were. And we would, I'm sure, 

17 do the same thing, right? So that we would 

18 have -- it wouldn't just be us sitting around; 

19 we would have some neutral party advising on 

20 that process, too. So we didn't -- you know, 

21 we're not stacking the deck in one way or the 

22 other.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Tim?

2 MR. CASSIDY: What I think I heard 

3 the commenter saying was that balance in a 

4 social context is fine. But you need experts 

5 in order to make progress, and there is a 

6 limited number of those experts, so that 

7 should be taken into consideration in the 

8 selection of the working group. You know, 

9 that's what I think I heard.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. As someone 

11 who has written these convening reports, 

12 saying yea or nay and who should participate, 

13 and typically it's organizations that you 

14 would list, then there is always the potential 

15 to list an organization and for that person to 

16 bring an actual entourage, to have his experts 

17 or her experts sitting right behind him or her 

18 at the table, and for that -- for information 

19 to flow back and forth, especially in this 

20 kind of a process, readily.

21 So there ought not to be an 

22 expertise deficit, almost regardless of the 
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1 composition. You know what I'm saying? This 

2 is an opportunity for this information to get 

3 in there.

4 You're next.

5 MS. MEYERS: Thank you. Karen 

6 Meyers with Rain Manufacturing. Just I want 

7 to echo the comments really about the 

8 sequencing of events on how this all happens. 

9 If you look at that first one on the list, 

10 the AEDM, if you go back to the list on the 

11 previous page, there is also a rulemaking on 

12 looking at commercial efficiency standards and 

13 maybe staying with EER or IEER.

14 But, really, before manufacturers 

15 can have a position on that, we need to know, 

16 you know, what the AEDM is going to be like. 

17 If you were back on that other list, and you 

18 went down a couple more, there is test 

19 procedures for central air conditioners and 

20 furnaces -- central air conditioners and heat 

21 pumps. But we have a new standard that is 

22 already set to go into effect in January.
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1 So from a manufacturer's 

2 perspective, once you know what that 

3 efficiency standard is and you start your 

4 product development cycle, it is based upon, 

5 you know, conducting the test to certify your 

6 new products. And if the test standard comes 

7 in, you know, within that -- in this instance, 

8 within that five-year timeframe, it can affect 

9 when you might be able to get your products 

10 out and to meet those deadlines.

11 We have the same thing happening. 

12 We've got a test procedure on furnace fans,

13 and then we also have one on residential 

14 furnaces and boilers, and those are kind of 

15 tied together. And then a couple more, and 

16 one that I'd really like to recommend for a 

17 working group, is the test procedure on 

18 residential water heaters, because the NECA 

19 III standards for that are set to go into 

20 effect in April of 2015, and the test 

21 procedure is a ways out.

22 So, you know, really, we've got 25 
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1 months to get a whole new -- to design a whole 

2 new platform of water heaters that meet a new 

3 standard, but we don't know what that test 

4 procedure is going to be and how it could 

5 affect that. Yet we are trying to design new 

6 products and be ready for that date, but we 

7 don't really know what the test procedure is 

8 going to be.

9 So it is very important for the 

10 sequencing to -- you know, to keep this, you 

11 know, rolling in line so that we can all, you 

12 know, get to where we want to be. But it does 

13 make it challenging from a manufacturer's 

14 perspective if these things are disjointed, 

15 which it -- in some cases they really are.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And this, of 

17 course, is complicated because sometimes DOE 

18 is handed their schedule.

19 MS. MEYERS: Right. And we all 

20 understand --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: For example.

22 MS. MEYERS: -- that, but, you 
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1 know, where possible, and as the ASRAC 

2 Committee meets to define, you know, and maybe 

3 even, you know, set priorities or make 

4 recommendations to DOE on, you know, areas 

5 where, you know, we might could do things to 

6 make things a little bit more efficient as, 

7 you know, has been commented on today, that 

8 would be some areas that, as a product 

9 manufacturer, I would really like to see the 

10 committee help to focus their efforts.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Just stay right 

12 there. Given the known constraints -- you are 

13 familiar with this process --

14 MS. MEYERS: Right.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: --- are you 

16 suggesting that there is some tweaking that 

17 could be done? Or are you suggesting it's 

18 more wholesale and broader?

19 MS. MEYERS: Well, I probably 

20 don't understand --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: On schedules.

22 MS. MEYERS: Well, you know, one 
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1 of the things I think I would like this 

2 committee to do is to look at all of the 

3 current activities that are on DOE's plate for 

4 2013 and, you know, see, are there some 

5 parallels that we can be running, are there 

6 some ways that we can combine some activities 

7 or at least move it up and down on the 

8 priority list to get some more -- some of 

9 these just follow a little bit more common 

10 sense trail.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yep.

12 MS. MEYERS: So that we could --

13 so, you know, I think it's really focusing the 

14 priorities and moving things up and down on 

15 the list, and making sure that they are done 

16 in a coordinated fashion.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks very 

18 much. So that's an example of a non-member 

19 suggesting a possible activity for the 

20 committee to consider.

21 Steve Rosenstock.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, thank you 
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1 very much. Steve Rosenstock, Edison Electric 

2 Institute. If you could, could you go back to 

3 the previous slide that showed all of the 

4 standards rulemakings? Because that would 

5 help kind of illustrate my comments.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: There we go.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: There you go. 

8 Thank you very much. I have two ideas for 

9 your consideration. I believe they are both 

10 cross-cutting. 

11 The first one is, if you look on 

12 this chart there is -- on the bottom line it 

13 says microwave oven standby final rule. As I 

14 recall, the final rule for ovens for the whole 

15 products were done in 2009. They went into 

16 effect April of 2012. 

17 But here is this other standard 

18 out there that is going to affect those ovens 

19 that could be happening, you know, final rule, 

20 which could go into effect -- I don't know 

21 what year. And, obviously, I know DOE has the 

22 authority to set both I'll say a global 
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1 appliance standard as well as a -- I'll call 

2 it a standby standard for lack of better 

3 words.

4 So what we have for many of these 

5 appliances is, going in the future, two test 

6 procedures, two standards, two rulemakings, 

7 and it's the same appliance. Cross-cutting 

8 issue -- is there a way to figure out how to 

9 streamline that?

10 Right now you have doubling of the 

11 process, doubling of the work, doubling of 

12 the, you know, records, et cetera. Is there a 

13 way to -- because if you have coverage, that 

14 standby covers all products I think from now 

15 on basically, that standby provision of EISA 

16 2007.

17 The second issue I wanted to talk 

18 about was looking at this list especially you 

19 will see products that do compete with other 

20 in the marketplace or are kind of components 

21 of each other. For example, HID lamps --

22 that's the lamps up there. Where it says high 
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1 density discharge, that's the lamps alone, 

2 right? Not the lamps in the ballast.

3 But I know in EISA 2007 there were 

4 standards set for metal halide ballasts for 

5 certain fixtures. And then there is metal 

6 halide, and then there is the HID -- adjusted 

7 metal halide lamp fixtures.

8 Well, they are kind of -- one 

9 product is a component of the other product. 

10 So one standard could affect the other 

11 product. It doesn't make sense to have 

12 different timing of different things, because 

13 then you might have to redesign a product for 

14 one standard versus the other standard.

15 And also, for space heating, I 

16 know you have -- up there right now is 

17 residential boilers. Well, right now there is 

18 a new standard going into effect for furnaces 

19 in May, but just for oil furnaces. And then 

20 you had the residential boilers last year, and 

21 then you got heat pumps in 2015. But, well, 

22 what about gas furnaces?
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1 So I think there has been some 

2 market implications of the fact of different 

3 timings for different products that compete 

4 against each other in the marketplace, and is 

5 there a way, again, in terms of DOE process to 

6 look at that issue, again, as a cross-cutting 

7 issue because it will have an impact on the 

8 marketplace and will have marketplace 

9 implications.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you very 

12 much.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So here 

14 is what I have written. Figure out how to 

15 streamline perhaps duplicative processes --

16 example, microwave standby -- and evaluate 

17 effective sequencing.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. But they 

19 are kind of -- they are separate.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I know.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: They are -- yes.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sequencing of 

2 competitive products, yes.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. You're next.

4 MR. IVANOVICH: I'm Michael 

5 Ivanovich with AMCA International. And I'd 

6 like to express that -- support for what Bob 

7 Asdal said from Hydraulics Institute about a 

8 concern for the consistency of the working 

9 groups and how those memberships are actually 

10 developed.

11 You know, I think a primary 

12 concern is that as an industry association it 

13 represents roughly 125 fan manufacturers 

14 selling fans in the United States, you know, 

15 to have only one vote on a committee like that 

16 it could be something diluting, so to speak, 

17 our voice in that regard compared to, for 

18 example, the other avenues that we might have 

19 available for the consensus agreement that we 

20 -- for example, negotiating with the 

21 environmental advocates. Number one.

22 Number two is I'd like to -- one 
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1 of the members of ASRAC commented that it 

2 would be good to validate the models that are 

3 being used for the cost-benefit analyses. I'm 

4 curious if there has been any widespread 

5 studies on the costs and impacts on 

6 regulation, not just the energy savings, 

7 because I think that would be a very important 

8 part of validating those models.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. IVANOVICH: And the other 

11 thing is, given the fact that only -- if you 

12 can't vote by proxy in a consensus process, 

13 that might be a single point of failure. So 

14 if you are a member of the working group and 

15 you can't make that meeting for a very strong 

16 reason, you know, could you send somebody else 

17 to represent your institution for one of these 

18 meetings. I think that's really important.

19 Given the fact that these are 

20 going to be intense meetings that might be 

21 frequent, if there is a problem with that 

22 person attending a particular meeting, could 
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1 they send a proxy.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley, you -- Dan, 

4 do you want to respond to that? Okay. Dan, 

5 please.

6 MR. COHEN: I'm sorry. The last

7 question about voting by proxy, we just have 

8 to look into the rules under the Federal 

9 Advisory Committee Act and just see if -- how 

10 we can set that up.

11 The way it worked in the 

12 transformer negotiation, you had to -- it was 

13 actually the member who had to vote. I 

14 believe that is just a requirement of the 

15 statute, but I just want to look into it.

16 MR. IVANOVICH: So it's an 

17 individual member, not an institutional 

18 member.

19 MR. COHEN: Correct. Yes. But 

20 that individual member is there in a 

21 representative capacity of their interest.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. You're 
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1 next.

2 MS. REED: My name is Jennifer 

3 Reed, and I represent Illinois Tool Works. 

4 ITW owns Traulsen. We make commercial 

5 refrigeration equipment.

6 So I just wanted to weigh in on 

7 the -- our hope that there will in fact be a 

8 working group that is tasked with a negotiated 

9 rulemaking on the HVAC commercial 

10 refrigeration equipment process. We think a 

11 lot of work has been done. 

12 There are a lot of outstanding 

13 issues, as the convening report pointed out, 

14 and I think the only way to get there quickly, 

15 because the agency does have some deadlines 

16 they have to adhere to, which have already 

17 been extended in some cases, is through a 

18 negotiated rulemaking.

19 So we just wanted to voice our 

20 support for -- from the commercial 

21 refrigeration equipment industry, from our 

22 perspective that that would be the way to do 
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1 that.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And do you have 

3 support from -- describe just in 30 seconds 

4 your level of support.

5 MS. REED: Traulsen support is 100 

6 percent. I will make the point that I --

7 there are people here from AHRI who can speak 

8 for themselves. Traulsen is not a member of 

9 AHRI. So we do have a trade association, and 

10 -- but it is -- it is not a very technical 

11 one. It is rarely as involved in these kinds 

12 of issues.

13 We certainly -- if, for example, a 

14 call for nominations went out, we would do all 

15 of that homework in the background, so that 

16 when you got appropriate nominations you knew 

17 how broad that representation was.

18 But it should be pointed out that 

19 one of the reasons we make a point of being 

20 here is because we don't feel like we have an 

21 association, but we make a very -- we are one 

22 of the largest makers of a certain kind of 
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1 commercial refrigeration equipment. So we are 

2 affected a lot.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Got you, thank you.

4 MS. REED: Sure.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Please. Your name.

6 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

7 DYCON/Goodman, now a part of Goodman, DYCON 

8 family. 

9 We would suggest that one of the 

10 primary drivers for what ASRAC should be using 

11 to determine which projects to address would 

12 be which ones would be saving the most 

13 potential energy. Examples would be the 13 

14 SEER rulemaking of 2006, if my calculations 

15 are correct, saved about 0.2 quads per year.

16 The regional standards that go 

17 into effect in '13 and '15 saved about 75 

18 percent of that, about 0.14 quads per year. 

19 The standby off-mode power for furnaces and 

20 air conditioners saved about three percent of 

21 the total, about 0.005 quads per year.

22 The PTAC rulemaking went into 
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1 effect last year in 2012, saved about just a 

2 little over a thousandth of a quad, or one 

3 percent of the 13 SEER. So I guess my 

4 suggestion would be that what the committee 

5 should look at is, which ones can save the 

6 most amount of energy? And that is where the 

7 primary emphasis should be.

8 We also want to reiterate the 

9 comments made by Karen and Steve about 

10 reducing the overall burden on manufacturers. 

11 And to the point of maybe combining some of 

12 the modes potentially, the standby modes, as 

13 well as the normal operating modes, and 

14 looking at combining the test procedures, it 

15 seems that there are several times where the 

16 Department -- DOE test procedure, industry 

17 test procedure, and the DOE industry 

18 conservation standards are not in tune.

19 And since a lot of industry 

20 participates in all of those, it would be --

21 seem prudent to go ahead and put those 

22 together, and maybe even potential of adopting 
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1 some international standards, some ISO 

2 standards for domestic use.

3 And as far as the schedules 

4 comment that was made, as far as, you know, 

5 there are some things that you may have to 

6 address this year or early next year. If 

7 those are a small amount of energy that might 

8 be saved, it may be in the best interest to --

9 for a consensus to say -- we'll say that we'll 

10 keep it as is for now and move on to the next 

11 big thing.

12 So that -- I would suggest that 

13 may be another alternate, too.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

15 Karim.

16 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 

17 You have heard John Mandyck and also the lady 

18 from Traulsen talking about this certification 

19 of commercial products as being an important 

20 rulemaking. And I think we would support that 

21 as well, support this committee putting this 

22 on a high priority, because there is a 
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1 deadline by the end of the year and I think 

2 it's a very important issue for the industry.

3 As far as process, I think this 

4 committee should consider stakeholders 

5 petitioning this group and asking, you know, 

6 what should be -- what this committee should 

7 decide as far as moving forward with the 

8 negotiated rulemaking. I think you should 

9 establish a process by which everybody or a 

10 group of people could together petition DOE to 

11 do something.

12 Having these ideas, cross-cutting 

13 ideas, I think there is one area where I 

14 believe the Department should start thinking 

15 about is with respect to the sampling plan, 

16 the tolerances with respect to testing. And 

17 those issues are not really properly addressed 

18 by DOE in our opinion, and I think it is 

19 something that this committee should look at 

20 and maybe establish a working group.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 
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1 Gary?

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Hi. I'm Gary 

3 Fernstrom representing the California 

4 Investor-Owned Utilities. And I would really 

5 like to thank the Department and all of you on 

6 this committee for taking what I think is a 

7 major step forward to improving the quality of 

8 these rulemakings.

9 We have about a dozen 

10 recommendations for you, which I'm not going 

11 to take the time to elaborate on now. We will 

12 send them in in writing, and we would like to 

13 ask you to consider them.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

16 MR. DORIA: Jordan Doria with 

17 Ingersoll Rand. I just want to cast Ingersoll 

18 Rand's support for negotiated rulemaking for 

19 compliance and enforcement for commercial HVAC 

20 and refrigeration. Don't want to belabor 

21 that. A number of people have already pointed 

22 that out.
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1 One other thing I wanted to just 

2 mention as a concept, when we're considering 

3 sort of broader thematic elements for the 

4 committee to think about, would be that this 

5 is to focus on sort of regulatory activities 

6 writ large. And most of the discussion has 

7 rightfully been on minimum energy performance 

8 standards, but those are, of course, only one 

9 form that regulation can take to drive energy 

10 efficiency.

11 I think we are starting to see a 

12 lot more come out on what certain drivers and 

13 behavioral change do for sort of real-world 

14 energy savings, seeing a lot through Energy 

15 Star portfolio manager and what benchmarking 

16 of buildings is doing for reducing energy 

17 consumption.

18 I think we'd have some analogs to 

19 draw upon actually from the food and beverage 

20 industry in terms of what conveying calorie 

21 information is doing to change consumer 

22 behavior. And I think there is a role for 
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1 regulation to promote all of that, but it 

2 might be outside of the traditional minimum 

3 energy performance standard framework. But 

4 there is still, again, a role for regulation. 

5 And just as a general point, it 

6 would be worth I think this committee to think 

7 about that a little bit in the future.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 

9 comments from the floor?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think that's 

11 a pretty good segue into just reiterating that 

12 point that Roland mentioned at the outset, 

13 since Jordan was nice enough to mention 

14 calorie counting.

15 Commercial labeling I think is 

16 something that the Department would like this 

17 committee to consider forming a working group 

18 on establishing, you know, or generating ideas 

19 of how the Department should deal with its 

20 commercial labeling authority.

21 And since Jordan introduced it, 

22 whether he meant to or not, I thought I'd 
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1 follow up with that.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

3 You're next, please.

4 MR. LANGILLE: Hi. My name is 

5 Gary Langille. I'm with Dish Network. We're 

6 the third largest video provider in the U.S.

7 I just wanted to make a comment 

8 that I think that there are -- just looking at 

9 the list of products and sort of where things 

10 are headed, that there is a big area that I've 

11 been educated about from advocates in terms of 

12 plug loads in homes and businesses that is 

13 growing very rapidly.

14 And, unfortunately, those devices 

15 aren't very clearly categorized as a product, 

16 you know, Product A, Product B, Product C. 

17 Their features change by day, by software, by 

18 usage, and the power consumption changes over 

19 time as products become combined and computing 

20 gets more advanced.

21 So I would like to see, at some 

22 point in time, perhaps this committee start 
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1 looking at what are the options, both legally 

2 for DOE, to start looking at possible other 

3 ways of promoting efficiency other than by 

4 some particular product level specification, 

5 you know, whether that be an allocation per 

6 home, per size of home, per size of building, 

7 per function, you know, so many watts to 

8 deliver high definition TV to each TV in the 

9 home, something to that effect that is not 

10 related specifically to a product.

11 I think it's a very complicated 

12 area, but I think that that's where life is 

13 headed in a lot of product categories.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

16 Yes, sir.

17 MR. ASBJORNSON: Norman 

18 Asbjornson, President and founder of AAON, a 

19 manufacturer of commercial heating and air 

20 conditioning equipment.

21 We have had a business plan of 

22 promoting higher efficiencies, and I look 
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1 forward to the announcement of the EPAC and 

2 DOE, Title 10, Sections 429, 430, and 431. 

3 When they came out I was sadly disappointed by 

4 the lack of clarity and the lack of good 

5 understanding of how to test heating and air 

6 conditioning equipment.

7 The net result is that was to go 

8 into effect originally on July 1, 2011, and it 

9 was set back to January 1, 2013. It has now 

10 been set back to January 1, 2014, because of 

11 the utter confusion in model numbers and 

12 rating percentages.

13 We heard earlier from our industry 

14 gentleman, Karim, who spoke for AHRI, the Air 

15 Conditioning Refrigeration -- or Heating and 

16 Air Conditioning Refrigeration Institute. 

17 That group has been, for over 60 years, 

18 involved as a trade association with some of 

19 the best minds of our industry setting forth 

20 all of this. And it appears that the 

21 regulations totally ignored what has been done 

22 by the industry. 
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1 I urge you to take advantage of 

2 the existing knowledge and abilities that 

3 already are available and not ignore them and 

4 cause utter confusion. 

5 What has this done to me? I built 

6 a company around high energy efficiency. I 

7 have utter confusion as to where you are going 

8 right now, and all of my competitors -- some 

9 on the panel here -- I share -- I am sure 

10 share somewhat this situation.

11 The net result is you have set 

12 back the energy efficiencies of our industry 

13 because of this confusion factor. It costs a 

14 lot of money to develop a product. When we 

15 don't know where we're going, and we have the 

16 issue going on for years on end, do you know 

17 what that does to anyone trying to advance 

18 energy efficiency? 

19 It pretty much stymies you or 

20 makes you have to decide you might develop 

21 something at great cost and then have to junk 

22 it before you even bring it on the market. 
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1 Not an acceptable way to run anything.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

3 So having heard in this open 

4 comment segment, let's close that now and go 

5 back to the committee, having heard what was 

6 said from the floor. Additional thoughts? 

7 There are a lot of ideas up here in these 

8 charts. Additional thoughts on points of 

9 emphasis? Pathway forward? Next steps 

10 perhaps before long?

11 Do you want to take restroom 

12 break?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it might be 

14 worthwhile -- I don't know what you guys think 

15 -- but to take a break, think about which ones 

16 -- ASRAC is going to have to whittle them down 

17 to a couple that they may or may not want to 

18 vote on.

19 Obviously, forming all of these 

20 working groups would take -- you know, so 

21 which ones we find most important, but maybe a 

22 couple of minutes to think about that?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So we --

2 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: One framing 

3 question is I think some of these, you know, 

4 may be ripe very soon, but aren't ripe here 

5 today. So --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

7 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: -- I think one 

8 thing we should think about is when -- how 

9 soon we want to reconvene to --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

11 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: -- you know,

12 can we take this list, can we refine it, can 

13 we make these a little bit more structured and 

14 then come back in the not-too-distant future 

15 and charter additional working groups. I 

16 think we can probably charter at least one 

17 today with what I'm hearing, and maybe two.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: And then, can 

20 we move on from that and come back and --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's do take a 
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1 short break, just for 15 minutes. That means 

2 we will convene at five minutes -- reconvene 

3 at five minutes after three. And when we come 

4 back -- and several of you can confer during 

5 the break. And when we come back we'll see if 

6 we can identify an issue or two or see how 

7 that evolves for a working group to be 

8 performed.

9 John?

10 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Yes. I would 

11 just say before we break it would be helpful 

12 to know when we come back which one of these 

13 may have pending deadlines associated with 

14 them.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think I can get 

16 you that.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I can write them up 

18 on the -- in red on the side here or 

19 something.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. That's a 

21 good -

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Let's 
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1 take a break. The restrooms are at both ends 

2 of the hall. And if you are going to make --

3 there is a Coke machine on the ground floor on 

4 the way to the coffee shop on the left. It is 

5 kind of hidden in a nook.

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off 

7 the record at 2:48 p.m. and 

8 resumed at 3:11 p.m.)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: The goal for the 

10 remainder of the day is to see if the 

11 committee can figure out something that it 

12 wants to set in motion today, and also to 

13 establish some next steps. 

14 I just had a brief conversation 

15 with Ashley, and she was thinking it might be 

16 useful as we look at this list, and it's a 

17 lengthy list, to separate out the product18 specific things first, and your rationale 

19 actually was -- use the microphone.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so for the 

21 couple that we have that are product-specific, 

22 or at least rulemaking-specific, even if they 
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1 are cost-cutting, that aren't process-type 

2 working group issues, I can tell you discrete 

3 deadlines for those that have it, because 

4 that's something John had asked for 

5 previously. 

6 And then, for the ones that are 

7 process-oriented, you know, the committee can 

8 decide after some discussion which ones they 

9 may or may not wish to tackle.

10 Open here. Let's --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So do you want to 

12 -- can you just identify the ones that are 

13 product-specific?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So let's go with 

15 -- the first one, the HVAC commercial cert.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: This one here.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: December 31st of 

18 this year.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: 12/31/13.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that is for 

21 Department action. So any working group 

22 established, and its recommendations to ASRAC 
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1 and ASRAC's recommendations to the Department 

2 would have to be well before that date.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

5 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: One clarifying 

6 question on that. That's final action by end 

7 of the year.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

9 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: So that means 

10 you'd have to issue -- when would you want to 

11 issue a proposed rule by?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know, I think 

13 if we could get -- if we could -- that's one 

14 that we would need to vote today, vote out 

15 today, if that's something we want to do. The 

16 Department would then have to react pretty 

17 quickly in starting to form that working 

18 group.

19 But, you know, we would probably 

20 like the working group and/or ASRAC's 

21 recommendations by the end of summer/beginning 

22 of fall, to be able to push the proposed rule 
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1 comment period for final rule by the end of 

2 the year.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, John.

4 MR. CASKEY: And what's a 

5 realistic timeframe for getting a working 

6 group set up and approved and notice in the --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thirty days, 

8 right?

9 MR. CASKEY: -- Federal Register 

10 and all of that?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thirty days.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's impressive.

13 (Laughter.)

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We aim to succeed 

15 here.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, okay.

17 MR. CASKEY: Like 30 calendar 

18 days?

19 (Laughter.)

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to 

21 attempt to do it as quick as possible. I 

22 think the nomination period is going to be 
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1 open for roughly 10 to 14 days. So you would 

2 want to keep your eyes out. And if you wanted 

3 to nominate someone, have their bio ready to 

4 go, get that in as quick as possible, and so 

5 we can move on it.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Use the microphone, 

7 please. Thank you.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We could talk 

9 about process, why -- yes. The idea was that 

10 some part of ASRAC would have a first cut at 

11 recommendations to the committee. Now, I 

12 don't know that that means we need to convene 

13 in person, right? We could probably do that 

14 over the phone and/or distribute a --

15 MR. PETERSON: It could be a 

16 webinar.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Good, good. 

19 Others? Ashley? Fans and pumps?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So those 

21 just started, so roughly three years from now. 

22 Same thing -- yes, those are both the same. 
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1 A little less for the test procedure, but --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. High energy 

3 -- standards, that's cross-cutting, that's 

4 process.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So test procedure 

6 on water heaters is also -- it's on the right, 

7 the next one. 

8 So this one is complicated, 

9 because the energy bill in December of this 

10 past year requires the Department to come up 

11 with some type of uniform descriptor. So this 

12 one is also end of the year, December 31st.

13 However, there is a second part of 

14 it that requires, once a test procedure and 

15 metric is established, there is some 

16 consideration given to conversion of the old 

17 metric to the new metric. That is on a little 

18 bit longer timeframe, and that is where I 

19 think the Department could really use some 

20 input, because that is going to require 

21 testing to be run, product-specific type 

22 things.
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1 And so actually working on the 

2 test procedure, because, you know, a lot of 

3 people have been working on that test 

4 procedure for about eight years with ASRAC 

5 now. If actually working on that test 

6 procedure isn't feasible in that timeframe, I 

7 think that conversion is really important for 

8 maybe this committee to consider.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

10 Are there other -- does HVAC, commercial 

11 refrigeration --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's 

13 most of the ones that have deadlines up there. 

14 Most of the other ones are process-oriented 

15 or potential explorations for the Department 

16 on new territory, whether it be commercial 

17 labeling or I'm going to call plug loads, how 

18 we kind of handle consumer electronics. The 

19 rest to me are mostly process at least.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which ones? In 

22 terms of standard levels or test procedure 
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1 issues? Both. Okay. So we just had a 

2 question about -- so CRE, it's supposed to be 

3 done by now, but the NOPR is at OMB. So I 

4 would say that we could form a committee to --

5 or we could consider forming a subcommittee to 

6 look at that, but the proposed levels are at 

7 OMB right now. Yes.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: One other thing, 

10 Kelley, to your point earlier about potential 

11 test procedure correlations on it, if there 

12 are certain test procedures where we know 

13 there are issues, I would propose that you ask 

14 that those test procedures form working 

15 groups.

16 We can do more of a cross-cutting 

17 thing with process, as you and John kind of 

18 asked for, in terms of guidance and timing and 

19 how the Department does that. But if we know 

20 there are certain test procedures that have 

21 issues, I would say let's go ahead and try to 

22 form a working group for those, whether it be 
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1 at this or subsequent meetings. Yes.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: John.

3 MR. CASKEY: So far, we have this 

4 HVAC commercial certification and enforcement, 

5 and then we also have behind you commercial 

6 and industrial pumps and commercial and 

7 industrial fans and blowers. Are those in any 

8 way related or not?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

10 MR. CASKEY: Okay. 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: They will be one 

12 day, but not until -

13 MR. CASKEY: So is this HVAC more 

14 like packaged units?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. It's like 

16 rooftop air conditions, commercial furnaces, 

17 those types of things.

18 MR. CASKEY: All right.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then 

20 refrigeration equipment.

21 MR. CASKEY: Okay.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Kelley.

2 MS. KLINE: Actually, just a 

3 question on the water heater. I'm trying to 

4 keep the different threads straight here. 

5 There is the uniform descriptor.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

7 MS. KLINE: There is the test 

8 procedure, and then there is also the 

9 conversion piece, right? So it would be -- I 

10 guess we would just have to frame up what the 

11 workgroup would be -- what is the scope of the 

12 workgroup effort, right?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So the 

14 Department's efforts right now, we have 

15 consolidated the uniform descriptor 

16 requirements and the test procedure in one. 

17 We will be addressing that as one. Subsequent 

18 to that, we will be dealing with the 

19 conversion factor.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And what is the 

21 timeframe for that? Are you pressed?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: One year for the 
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1 test procedure and what falls under this 

2 uniform descriptor, and then there is a little 

3 longer -- I don't know the date off the top of 

4 my head, but a little longer for the 

5 conversion factor.

6 MR. COHEN: By the way, that was 

7 one year from the date in December, right?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So end of 

9 the year.

10 MS. KLINE: So when you were 

11 saying a minute ago what the Department could 

12 really use some help on, were you talking 

13 about the first part or the converted --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The conversion.

15 MS. KLINE: -- this conversion 

16 factor, okay.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: In my opinion. I 

18 mean, it's definitely open, but -- and then 

19 you mentioned something earlier which kind of 

20 went under the radar. I was surprised that 

21 Kevin didn't bring it up, but -- so dryer test 

22 procedure.
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1 Right now we have a dryer test 

2 procedure open for automatic terminations. 

3 And we've had a lot of data and a lot of 

4 comments about how that dryer test procedure 

5 may should be changed over time. 

6 The Department has left some of 

7 those issues on the table. I don't know that 

8 it's reasonable to think that we could form a 

9 subcommittee to finish the open rule right now 

10 because it's on a pretty quick timeline, but 

11 some of the larger issues, whether it be load 

12 size, low composition, real use factors, other 

13 things that we might leave on the table, 

14 potentially could be ripe for a separate 

15 working group with more of a long-term 

16 overhaul of a dryer test procedure in mind.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.

18 MR. MESSNER: What I was talking 

19 about on the larger test procedure changes 

20 impact standard --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know what you 

22 are going to --
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1 MS. MESSNER: -- dryers is the --

2 kind of the tip of the spear. You did two 

3 other test procedures before that, so I don't 

4 -- working through that is something that we 

5 negotiated as part of our agreement to deal 

6 with auto termination.

7 But having that happen in the 

8 middle of a three-year lead-in period, and 

9 trying to cram it in, to us it's kind of

10 putting a square peg in a round hole. So 

11 there is a larger issue on the whole auto 

12 termination, but the way the DOE is going down 

13 it right now it goes into all the problems 

14 with the test procedure change --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

16 MR. MESSNER: -- and the de 

17 minimis and all of that.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm separating 

19 those two issues, right? I get your point.

20 MR. MESSNER: Yes. They're 

21 together for us, so it causes problems for a 

22 working group to get into that.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, I mean, 

2 but to your point of wanting DOE to take a 

3 look -- I think we would -- the idea would be 

4 to form a working group to long haul take a 

5 look at that.

6 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. I think it's 

7 just inherent in the testing process, that 

8 dryers is just iconic at the moment. But it 

9 is true for all of the white goods and all of 

10 the equipment where we don't have really solid 

11 duty cycle information or load profile 

12 information to do the costing, the pricing of 

13 the kilowatt hours or the gas purchases.

14 And, you know, that's just basic 

15 information that feeds any of the models. And 

16 you make it up as you go when you find a data 

17 source, but you don't have any idea whether 

18 it's statistically representative or not. 

19 We bring you something from 

20 Northwest. We eat a lot of granola. It may 

21 not be --

22 (Laughter.)
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1 -- with the rest of the places in 

2 the world. So, you know --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Most of you in this 

4 room have a lot of experience in these plant 

5 standards and processes and test procedures, 

6 and this committee has taken a while to get 

7 underway. So there has been some discussion 

8 leading up 'til today thinking about what 

9 might be launched soon, today perhaps.

10 So as you look at this list, what 

11 bubbles forward? What are the items that you 

12 think -- that you might wish to put to a vote 

13 today to establish a working group?

14 Kelley?

15 MS. KLINE: It seems like we might 

16 need a process for a fairly quick follow on 

17 some of these, because I think a lot of them 

18 could benefit from a little better framing and 

19 maybe further definition, so --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking that 

21 DOE would take the initiative. If you 

22 selected one of these or several of these, 
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1 then that would -- they would go back and 

2 they'd write something up. They would scope 

3 it a little bit, they would describe it a 

4 little bit, they would talk about the 

5 deadline, you know -- I'm just guessing -- a 

6 variety of things like this.

7 Ashley, help me here.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I hear DOE, and 

9 I'm a DOE rep, so I'm --

10 (Laughter.)

11 -- Ashley, right? No, I think we 

12 could -- to Doug's point, or to Kelley's 

13 point, the committee could do it. We could do 

14 it. I think there's a couple we could 

15 probably -- so there's one obvious one, right? 

16 I mean, the commercial cert is 

17 something I think the Department or this 

18 committee should decide whether it wants to 

19 act on today, because that one, really, today 

20 is our opportunity to start that process if we 

21 want to make that -- if anyone wants to make 

22 that deadline in a realistic manner.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: The HVAC commercial 

2 certification and enforcement. Done. Okay.

3 John?

4 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Concur with 

5 that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew?

7 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: That's one that 

8 we should --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: I think we 

11 should go ahead and charter that one today.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. John?

13 MR. CASKEY: I mean, I'm neutral 

14 on that particular issue. But just when I try 

15 and think through the pragmatic sort of time 

16 schedule, I mean, I think if we are going to 

17 spend all of March basically to set up the 

18 working group, maybe, you know, April to try 

19 and get a meeting set -- a face-to-face 

20 meeting, and then maybe May to try and get a 

21 chairperson selected for the working group and 

22 to start making progress and to tell them --
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1 you know, to give them what their options are, 

2 for them to develop a scope, for them to 

3 develop like how they are going to operate, 

4 and all that sort of stuff, it just seems like 

5 between, you know, May and July to have an 

6 answer back to you, or August, that has come 

7 through us -- this group seems like it's 

8 really pushing it.

9 I mean, I don't want to undermine 

10 the possibility for success. I mean, if you 

11 guys that are experts really think you can 

12 have success in that abbreviated time, then 

13 I'm -- you know, I'm happy for you, but it's 

14 like -- it just seems like in the case --

15 well, you know, just for us to get in this 

16 room took quite a bit of while. So I'm trying 

17 to put in a little bit of anticipation of 

18 delays along the way.

19 So is it realistic to get any 

20 meaningful results by, you know, July time 

21 period?

22 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: I think it is 
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1 if we prescribe some check-in points. So, in 

2 other words, we could ask the working group to 

3 file status reports with us, which provides 

4 gates by which they have to operate. So 

5 that's one way to try to keep a schedule on 

6 track.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom.

8 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. It seems to me 

9 even if they don't reach consensus, because 

10 they don't have enough time to drive there, 

11 you can probably move the marble a little 

12 further down the floor, just by getting 

13 together to talk about it, to find out what 

14 the real issues are and queue them up gives 

15 DOE a better chance to get the closure in a 

16 reasonable way at the end of the year, if you 

17 have already thrashed through some of the 

18 issues and said, "We can resolve these, but we 

19 can't resolve these. You're going to have to 

20 make a call." Even that would help the 

21 process along I think.

22 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: I agree. And 
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1 this isn't a new issue, so there has been --

2 this has been around for three years.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So if the committee 

4 today decides that they would like to vote to 

5 create a working group on that issue, then, 

6 say, by end of February, end of March, you've 

7 got your committee composed, and in that same 

8 timeframe hopefully you can find a chair.

9 And so, then, beginning in April 

10 -- analysis is already underway, right?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, unlike 

12 standards, there is no -- I mean, there is not 

13 going to be analysis. It is going to be the 

14 Department sitting at the table with 

15 manufacturers and advocates and other 

16 interested parties, just discussing what 

17 viable ways for commercial certification, what 

18 --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I see.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- all the 

21 variations in products, what could work.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. So this 
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1 could commence in April or May, and you would 

2 do periodic meetings, once a month say, 

3 something like that, and, John, you and Tom 

4 were saying progress probably.

5 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Right. Well, I 

6 would think it would be, you know, mid to late 

7 June should be the first progress report to 

8 the ASRAC. And then, you know, I think we 

9 should require or shoot for a recommendation 

10 by September 1.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we have 

12 several individuals who have spoken on behalf 

13 of creating the working group, and that is the 

14 one HVAC commercial certification and 

15 enforcement. We have laid out a timeline 

16 here. We know it is going to require some 

17 additional scoping.

18 Other thoughts on that before we 

19 see if the committee wishes to make a 

20 decision?

21 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Follow on to 

22 John's question, John Caskey's question, is 
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1 that, you know, can it be done in the 

2 timeframe - if we're starting -- we're not 

3 starting from a standstill on this. 

4 There was a convening report 

5 written last summer by DOE's consultant, or 

6 actually by a DOE staff -- by someone -- a 

7 government staff person, so there is a whole 

8 -- there is a body of work. And you guys have 

9 been going back and forth for some period of 

10 time.

11 So at some level this is not a 

12 brand-new activity. We are just moving into a 

13 forum in which it can be addressed I think 

14 more effectively.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We just need a new 

16 -- potentially a new solution.

17 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Yes. So --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: If that's the best 

19 way to state it.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: So I think the 

22 odds of success are -- I think you can do more 
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1 -- at a minimum, we will get -- we will move 

2 the ball. We may very well be able to reach 

3 consensus. I think it's a distinct 

4 possibility. I hope it is.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So are you 

6 ready to decide whether you wish to create 

7 this working group? Okay. Let's -- then 

8 let's take a vote. All those who wish to 

9 create this working group and -- anybody that 

10 -- that's the way -- I could do it either way.

11 MR. ECKMAN: You're trying to 

12 bully them into --

13 (Laughter.)

14 Let's see if there's not consensus 

15 first.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Anybody that wishes 

17 to dissent, anybody that does not agree with 

18 working -- creating this working group, please 

19 say so now. No one is speaking, so this 

20 working group has now been decided upon. We 

21 have a consensus; we have unanimity.

22 And, congratulations, you have 
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1 made your first substantive discussion --

2 decision.

3 (Applause.)

4 And I think it's fairly obvious --

5 we don't need to repeat what DOE is going to 

6 do in response to this. Okay. We've got a 

7 convening report. We've got -- you've got 

8 next steps, and we'll follow on from it.

9 Okay. So that's good, and that's 

10 --

11 MR. PETERSON: Can we get a 

12 confirmed deadline for that, so we --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So, John, do you 

14 want to start? You already said a report by 

15 September 1. Progress reports on some 

16 interval, every month or every other month.

17 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: I would think a 

18 substantive progress report mid to late June. 

19 Should we pick a date or --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would pick a 

21 date.

22 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: -- just say by 
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1 June 26th?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think your 

3 timeline is fine. As long as it's not a 

4 weekend.

5 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: School's out.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I've got a 

7 calendar.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: There you go. 

9 It's a Wednesday, according to John. So while 

10 -- I think it's a Wednesday, but I think we're 

11 okay.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: June 26th is a 

13 Wednesday.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So something for 

15 you to consider is whether we want to pick the 

16 -- or at least gauge interest on the people in 

17 ASRAC that want to be part of that committee 

18 here, just to get that one out of the way, 

19 too.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. That's a good 

21 point. So thank you for -- I should have done 

22 that.
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1 Is there anyone -- who on this 

2 committee would like to serve as a member on 

3 that working group? We would like to have at 

4 least one. John will, and also Kent. Okay. 

5 So you've got that, Jeremiah? Yes, John and 

6 Kent will both serve. Excellent. Thank you.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Is that enough --

8 enough of deadlines for now, timelines? Yes.

9 MR. PETERSON: When is the final 

10 report due?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: September 1.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: September 1.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. From 

14 the working group, and then presumably ASRAC 

15 will turn that around rather quickly. Okay.

16 So good. Is there another issue 

17 up there that you would like to consider 

18 creating a working group for? The two -- the 

19 other two that are circled, fans and pumps, 

20 but it's a three-year cycle. And this one --

21 test procedure on residential water heaters, 

22 and, as Ashley said, perhaps the conversion of 
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1 the old metric, that second activity, might be 

2 the one that would bear the most fruit.

3 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: It seems to me 

4 -- you know, I'm not an expert in the 

5 commercial -- or in the water heater test 

6 method issues, but it -- can you address that 

7 topic until you address the first topic?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: You need to 

9 address -- you would need to probably have a 

10 proposed rule out first, right? So at least 

11 you are seeing what the Department is thinking 

12 for its new test procedure and/or metric, 

13 scope of coverage type issues. So --

14 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: It just strikes 

15 me as something that we should table for the 

16 moment.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Table for the next 

18 one with fans and pumps.

19 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Right.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Near-term issues 

21 --

22 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Right.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- not like a year 

2 from now, but near-term potentials. But, yes, 

3 that's probably a good idea.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Table fans 

5 and pumps, and table test procedure on 

6 residential water heaters.

7 Other thoughts on what is up here?

8 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Well, the one 

9 that you just made, in addition, is the one 

10 where commercial labeling has been raised a 

11 couple of times. You know, I hear some 

12 enthusiasm from the Department in getting 

13 guidance on this topic.

14 I don't know how it's defined. So 

15 what the precise work task is of the committee 

16 to me is not fully formed in my mind. But it 

17 strikes me as being potentially quite a 

18 valuable area for discussion.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you describe 

20 what is underway with this, or the thought 

21 process?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We put an RFI out, 
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1 so the working group could look at the 

2 comments from the RFI. I think the Department 

3 is looking for input as to what it should do 

4 next into this space.

5 As Roland mentioned in his like 

6 outset comments, you know, this is something 

7 seemingly, he said, the White House is 

8 interested in. And what we don't want to 

9 happen is them to ask for an answer. 

10 We would like to have input from 

11 you guys and/or a working group about what the 

12 Department -- how should the Department handle 

13 its authority with respect to commercial 

14 labeling, some problems for which it clearly 

15 spells out that we have to come up with a 

16 labeling rule for, so I think those would be 

17 the issues. It is more open-ended definitely 

18 than coming out with a number, but equally as 

19 valuable.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: John.

21 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Are you talking 

22 about equipment labeling or building labeling?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Equipment.

2 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Can you -- do 

3 you have the authority to do building 

4 labeling?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just equipment.

6 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Without 

7 building labeling it becomes I think an 

8 imperfect exercise.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we get part of 

10 the way there? I mean, I guess that's the 

11 question. I mean, could there be a working 

12 group to kind of flesh out these types of 

13 issues, pros and cons, as the Department tries 

14 to understand where it's going on in this 

15 space?

16 Could you help us? Could the 

17 working group and ASRAC help inform that 

18 decision?

19 MR. COHEN: Or you could tell us 

20 it's meaningless.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I mean, 

22 that's another option. The costs are X and 
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1 the value is Y and --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Kent, go ahead.

3 MR. PETERSON: Actually, I'm just 

4 trying to understand this better, but you 

5 currently oversee residential equipment 

6 rating, right? Labeling.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: The Federal Trade 

8 Commission does.

9 MR. PETERSON: The Federal Trade 

10 Commission. Are you thinking that this kind 

11 of does the same thing on the commercial side? 

12 Is that --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we 

14 know. I think the question is open-ended. We 

15 just -- we are -- for residential, the 

16 authority goes to FTC for the most part. And 

17 then, for commercial, the authority lies with 

18 us. And we haven't really ventured into this 

19 space, with the exception of a limited label 

20 for motors and like CC numbers and nameplates 

21 and that kind of stuff.

22 But other than that, it's, well, 
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1 what should we do? It's an open issue.

2 MR. PETERSON: So we are in the 

3 conceptualization phase.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are. You think 

5 that's fair, right?

6 MR. PETERSON: And that could be 

7 cool. 

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's pretty 

9 much what the RFI laid out.

10 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: I think none of 

11 us are thinking FTC.

12 (Laughter.)

13 No one has that in mind.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let me ask a 

15 question before we vote. Does anybody on the 

16 committee wish to participate in a working 

17 group on that, just so we have a -- Tom does 

18 and -- okay, and also Timothy. So we have two 

19 volunteers already for that. So should we 

20 take a vote on this, see whether we want to 

21 launch this? Tell me yes or no. 

22 Go ahead, John.
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1 MR. CASKEY: Another idea. Are 

2 there things that we could effectively work on 

3 as a -- the ASRAC and respond to and work with 

4 DOE on without necessarily setting up a 

5 working group? Particularly if there is a 

6 variety of good members here that want to 

7 participate with something like this.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Dave?

9 DR. HUNGERFORD: I was just 

10 following on that -- yeah, it seems like that 

11 would be an appropriate function of this 

12 committee, to at least go down that initial 

13 road of scoping what that working group might 

14 look at, because we are -- this commercial 

15 labeling is an obvious example of -- we could 

16 think through things like, well, who is 

17 intended -- whose behavior is intended to be 

18 affected by this label, as a sort of starting 

19 question, those sorts of issues, and then 

20 decide whether it then should go to -- go 

21 through the trouble of developing a working 

22 group, if we can't resolve it.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

2 DR. HUNGERFORD: And what kind of 

3 -- sorts of issues should be considered.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Steven.

5 MR. COUSINS: No. I just want to 

6 echo what David said. To me, that makes a 

7 great deal of sense, to put some framework 

8 around this before making a decision, you 

9 know, of chartering a working group.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. And, 

11 ASRAC, if you were to take this up, would you 

12 expect everyone around the table to 

13 participate or select members or in and out? 

14 What would be your expectation? Would there 

15 be one?

16 MR. COUSINS: I would have the 

17 expectation that all of us would -- because we 

18 all have sensitivities and representation at 

19 different areas, you know, within --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

21 MR. COUSINS: -- you know, the 

22 appliance sector. I think input from everyone 
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1 would be critical.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Could you say what 

3 you would expect as kind of the workflow or 

4 timetable would be for a thing like this, off 

5 the top of your head?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know that 

7 I have one in mind, but I think if ASRAC --

8 you know, by the time we meet in person next, 

9 it would seem reasonable that we would at 

10 least have some ideas of what we think the 

11 scope could be and whether we want to actually 

12 form a technical working group to deal with 

13 some of the more detailed type issues. 

14 Otherwise, it would seem it would linger on 

15 forever.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you thinking 

17 that in the interim you would exchange some 

18 paper and there would be a webinar or two, and 

19 then you'd meet face to face, and what kind of 

20 a timeframe?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think we 

22 are required to meet twice a year in person. 
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1 That doesn't preclude us from meeting more in 

2 person if we wanted to, but at least we would 

3 meet twice a year. 

4 So I think at least in the six5 month timeframe we would do idea generating, 

6 scope narrowing, whether it be fleshing out 

7 this or some other ideas of the list, and then 

8 at the next group we could actually vote on 

9 more working groups that we would potentially 

10 charter. Does that seem reasonable?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the RFI 

13 one is hard because we have already gotten a 

14 lot of comments, right? And the issues were 

15 pretty wide across the board, so I don't know 

16 if this committee wants to take on the task of 

17 looking at all of those and kind of weeding 

18 those and seeing or if we actually want to 

19 charter a working group to do that. 

20 It is kind of how you see, you 

21 know -- whether you see yourself as trying to 

22 flesh out some of these more overarching type 
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1 issues, or getting into the details quite a 

2 bit of some of the --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: John?

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: So -- right. So 

5 the comment period is ending March 20th, I 

6 believe is the date. And as Ashley said, we 

7 have a lot of comments already. So I guess 

8 what you all should be considering is, do you 

9 want to charter a group of people to digest 

10 the comments and plan a path forward? Or do 

11 you want me to do that?

12 So I think that's the question. 

13 By "me," I don't mean me personally.

14 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: What product 

15 categories are you talking about?

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: The commercial 

17 labeling.

18 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Oh, the 

19 commercial labeling.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. So, you 

21 know, like Ashley pointed out, a good -- you 

22 know, I understand you guys made really good 
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1 points, but I think that shouldn't preclude 

2 you from maybe chartering a subcommittee to 

3 form, and that you form one now in the 

4 anticipation of digesting the comments come 

5 March 20th. You've got the people that are 

6 formed to do that. 

7 Just a thought. Because otherwise 

8 we are going to do it anyway here at the 

9 Department, so --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: You are going to 

11 receive all of the comments, you are going to 

12 sift and sort, and you are going to write 

13 something akin to a --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are just going 

15 to decide what to do.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. We are

17 just going to go forward and say, well, based 

18 on these comments, this is what we think is a 

19 good commercial labeling strategy.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And you are going 

21 to do that in what timeframe?

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Sometime after 
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1 March 20th, so --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And so that would 

3 provide time for ASRAC to consider what you 

4 have come up with potentially?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we 

6 would -- we would present our proposal prior 

7 to issuing a proposal, to the extent we decide 

8 to do something, to ASRAC first.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be more 

11 that I think it was cued up as an issue for 

12 the committee to decide whether a working 

13 group could be formed to inform that position 

14 of whether to move forward and/or not in light 

15 of the RFI comments and a variety of other 

16 opinions that need to be --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: They could consider 

18 the RFI comments. They could add to the RFI 

19 comments. And you wouldn't feel compelled to 

20 address it immediately, if you had a working 

21 group working on it.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. I mean, to 
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1 me, that seems like a lot of -- this committee 

2 could definitely commit to doing that. It's 

3 just that's a lot of details for just labeling 

4 when we have -- it seems we have a lot of 

5 open-ended issues to deal with as well, or 

6 potentially consider.

7 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: So just my two 

8 cents on this is that it does strike me as 

9 being a workgroup activity as opposed to us 

10 delegating ourselves as that workgroup. I'm 

11 not going to read all of those comments, for 

12 one. 

13 And it strikes me that the 

14 Department then put out the RFI, and then the 

15 thought then is that then leads to some sort 

16 of plan, right? And they are going to develop 

17 a plan, so the question is, they are asking 

18 for a workgroup to help them figure out what 

19 that plan should look like. 

20 And I don't think that this group 

21 was conceived of as the folks who would -- we 

22 weren't selected to be that -- have that 
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1 expertise. So it strikes me that we should 

2 put it out to a comment, put it out in a 

3 Federal Register notice, and they can -- we 

4 should form up a group that has expertise in 

5 this area to -- that would consist of a couple 

6 of us and also folks who have expertise.

7 The products that are affected are 

8 all of the commercial products potentially, or 

9 it's the whole scope in Section B or C, 

10 however you want to letter it.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's right. So, 

12 and I think -- we don't have to stop at just 

13 two ASRAC members on this. So if -- you know, 

14 we named two, but we can have five. This is 

15 not like a contentious rulemaking where -- you 

16 know, so don't feel compelled to stop at two 

17 if there is more interest.

18 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: But I want to 

19 be clear that that's a plan, so then the plan 

20 that the Department would come up with, I 

21 mean, you ultimately may decide to address 

22 different products differently, of course, 
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1 because they are going to have to be addressed 

2 given their own circumstances.

3 But you're looking for some basic 

4 framework to think about this responsibility 

5 you have for commercial labeling.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: The basic, like 

7 what should be on the label. I mean, 

8 questions like that, you know.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And for 

10 different products, does it provide different 

11 values? So is there no value for certain 

12 products? Is there a lot of value for other 

13 products? Does it provide a means of tracking 

14 things that may go into large type equipment, 

15 like components of other types of equipment? 

16 I mean, just types of things to think about.

17 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: Well, given the 

18 concerns over the FTC label over the years, I 

19 think the chance to get in on the ground floor 

20 to try to influence the plan seems like one 

21 that many people would jump at. So it seems 

22 like a good opportunity to me.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So at least half of 

2 this group has spoken on behalf of considering 

3 creating a working group for commercial 

4 labeling. Shall we put that to the test? 

5 Shall I move the question and see whether you 

6 wish to create a working group?

7 John?

8 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: I kind of feel 

9 like I need to learn more, because I don't 

10 know what we are really chartering.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

12 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: So --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: John, describe what 

14 it would be useful for you to obtain.

15 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, it is 

16 kind of like, do you want to boil the ocean? 

17 And so I think there needs to be some -- some 

18 definitive ideas on what type of -- you know, 

19 what are we -- who are we trying to -- a 

20 simple question like, who is the label trying 

21 to influence --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.
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1 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: -- I think 

2 would be good to know before we try to chart a 

3 working group.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm looking --

5 John and Ashley, if the Department provided 

6 more information to ASRAC, to the members, and 

7 in some short span of time, say a month or so, 

8 they decided that, yes, indeed, this made 

9 sense to -- based on what you came forward 

10 with, to create a working group, they could do 

11 that via some electronic means or some sort of 

12 a survey mechanism, right? But that -- your 

13 timetable is you want to move quickly on this. 

14 No?

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, to 

16 Andrew's point, I think, again, the comment 

17 period ends March 20th. And it's a chance to 

18 get thinking at the beginning, not in the 

19 middle. So it is up to you all. I mean, 

20 again, I'm not a voting member here, but I --

21 you know, I -- it tells -- and, you know, to 

22 John's question, what are we trying -- who are 
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1 we trying to influence, I think, you know, you 

2 design a label based on who you are trying to 

3 influence.

4 So maybe the first question to the 

5 group to consider is, you know, so who are we 

6 trying to influence and what should the -- I 

7 mean, all of those questions are on the table.

8 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: But even a more 

9 basic question -- and I'm not a labeling 

10 expert -- but labels could have multiple 

11 purposes. Right? You can show that it's 

12 compliant, you could try to provide 

13 information to the end user, you can try to 

14 provide information to the purchaser, to a 

15 specifier.

16 You've got lots of different 

17 potential purposes here, and I'm sure I 

18 haven't even begun to list them. So the first 

19 question is, what are the potential benefits 

20 of a label? And how would you -- and then, 

21 given those potential benefits, how would you 

22 structure it?
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1 So, again, you have to pull 

2 together some labeling experts to --

3 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Right. And to 

4 go along with that, what are the burdens and 

5 costs of labeling?

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Absolutely.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw John first, 

8 then Steve. Go ahead.

9 MR. CASKEY: I think I'm on the 

10 fence a little bit. I mean, I wholeheartedly 

11 support a working group being established to 

12 basically support what John and Ashley would 

13 need to do with regard to reviewing all of the 

14 responses they have gotten from the RFP.

15 But I'd like to see those results 

16 back summarized in some way or consolidated or 

17 maybe with some recommendations, but I guess 

18 at that point then I'd like to be able to see 

19 what the preliminary result is, and then start 

20 to develop a strategy going forward.

21 You know, so I would hate -- for 

22 me personally, I'd hate to not be on the 
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1 working group and then miss out on any 

2 opportunity for input, but then I agree that I 

3 don't think we need the whole ASRAC group to 

4 review, you know, 2,000 comments or something 

5 like that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. 

7 Steve.

8 MR. COUSINS: Yeah. I'm somewhat 

9 on the fence here, too, because -- and I know 

10 the RFP that is out there now, you've got a 

11 number of comments that have come in. The 

12 comments are around the -- just a general idea 

13 of labeling.

14 I would expect those comments to 

15 be all over the place. And if we form a 

16 working group, the working group is going to 

17 end up trying to figure out, as you pointed 

18 out, John, you know, what part of the ocean do 

19 we boil.

20 One of the things -- and since 

21 there are so many commodities here that are 

22 being represented, I would question for some 
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1 of those commodities whether or not the 

2 information even exists to put onto a label to 

3 influence a certain behavior.

4 And the working group may go into 

5 this with the mind-set that they are going to 

6 force a solution, that they are being mandated 

7 to force some kind of solution for everything. 

8 I just think that we, as a committee, need to 

9 create some kind of clarity, framework, or a 

10 definition around what our intention is or 

11 what we intend for them to do, than just 

12 saying, hey, go out there and figure out 

13 something for us.

14 Just my point of view.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I am mindful of the 

16 timetable, and I am thinking about how we 

17 split the difference between those that are on 

18 the fence and those that seem inclined to join 

19 and jump in. Is there an intermediary step 

20 here? Is there a --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the only 

22 thing I can think of as something kind of in 
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1 the middle is, you know, vote whether we think 

2 this is a valuable exercise to form a working 

3 group today, hold nominations, though, until 

4 the comment period has ended.

5 Therefore, people have a chance to 

6 read the comments as they may wish and decide 

7 if they want to apply for the committee and/or 

8 ASRAC members could decide if they want to 

9 also be on the committee -- working group, and 

10 then go from there.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you think the 

12 convening report gives a pretty --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no 

14 convening report for this one? This one is 

15 just an RFI. I mean, I don't think you are 

16 going to see like, you know, a comment summary 

17 and the Department's responses and pros and 

18 cons or potential options for the Department 

19 from DOE. 

20 That is what we are really looking 

21 for the committee to give us, not necessarily 

22 comment responses, but, I mean, options as to 
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1 what we could do or what the right thing may 

2 be to do. And it may very well be nothing. 

3 You know, you shouldn't enter this space.

4 But at the same time, I think we 

5 would like some due diligence consideration 

6 given to help inform us before we make our 

7 decision whether to jump full fledge into this 

8 space.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: John.

10 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: What would be 

11 the scope that we would recommend to the 

12 working group?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think a 

14 good starting point, right, could be the RFI 

15 questions that we teed up. We wanted feedback 

16 on those specific questions, so that could be 

17 a good starting point for the committee at 

18 least, you know, what are your opinions on 

19 these questions for the working -- or working 

20 group. I keep calling it a committee. Sorry.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. how many 

22 questions were there on --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm sure it could 

2 be broader than that, but at least, as a first 

3 step, that's not a bad idea.

4 MR. CASKEY: So one potential 

5 charter, you know, at least for this first 

6 phase would be to review all of the comments, 

7 try and categorize the comments maybe just by 

8 your questions, or maybe there is some other 

9 category that naturally falls out, and then 

10 come up with some sort of summary document 

11 that helps to communicate that to all of the 

12 ASRAC members.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And potentially a 

14 recommendation, right? Yeah.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So that --

16 and then that would be a task for a working 

17 group that you would convene, or you would 

18 empower, create. Yeah.

19 So what do you think? Do you want 

20 to move the question on whether to create this 

21 working group or not? Does anyone object to 

22 creating -- moving the question? 
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1 We are almost back to Robert's 

2 Rules here, and I'm going to move the 

3 question. Does anyone dissent, anyone not 

4 wish to create a working group to consider 

5 commercial labeling? Especially I would note 

6 that two or three individuals have noted they 

7 would like to participate in doing this. 

8 Anybody wish to dissent?

9 MR. COUSINS: All right. Now, 

10 without answering that question, if the 

11 question is, do we dissent on creating the 

12 working group, speaking for myself, I don't 

13 dissent on creating a working group. What I'm 

14 suggesting is that this committee give 

15 consideration to the creation of that as a 

16 first step. I mean, I think that's a 

17 different question than whether or not we 

18 dissent at this moment.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: What Ashley said a 

20 moment ago, which I kind of bought, was that 

21 if we create a working group any member of the 

22 committee that wishes to participate in the 
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1 working group could do so as a member of the 

2 working group.

3 So, and then the committee as a 

4 whole would not need to participate. That's 

5 what -- if I followed your logic, that's what 

6 was being said.

7 MR. COUSINS: All right. We had a 

8 discussion about whether or not this committee 

9 could derive some clarity to this exercise --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

11 MR. COUSINS: -- by defining the 

12 scope -- the framework and the scope.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

14 MR. COUSINS: Not right now but 

15 maybe in a conference call, let's say.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

17 MR. COUSINS: That was I think 

18 some of the comments that were made, and what 

19 I'm trying to understand is, okay, does that 

20 comment -- is that still a valid comment, or 

21 are we at a point now where we are saying that 

22 is not a valid comment, let's go and create 
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1 the working group?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't know 

3 whether it's valid. It seemed like the 

4 conversation moved toward, especially it being 

5 late in the day, towards whether the committee 

6 wanted to create this working group, noting 

7 that any member that wanted to participate in 

8 the working group could do so. 

9 And then it seems like a separate 

10 question about whether ASRAC wants to provide 

11 some scoping activity.

12 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: I think part of 

13 the concern that you may be hearing is that, 

14 if I understand the process correctly, once we 

15 empanel the working group, we're out unless 

16 we're on the working group. 

17 And then, the only guidance or 

18 input we can provide is to accept or reject 

19 the recommendation to go to DOE, because the 

20 document says you have to either forward it 

21 without changes, and so I think this is an 

22 issue that is cross-cutting enough that there 
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1 are members who are -- kind of want to 

2 understand it a little better to help scope 

3 what the exercise is before we let go of it.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. I 

5 understand. Thanks for that clarity.

6 John.

7 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. And sort of 

8 building on that -- and, again, I -- this is 

9 sort of a selfish response, if you will, but 

10 what I think would be ideal is a two-phased 

11 approach. The first phase approach is to do 

12 exactly what your staff would do, would be to 

13 go through and what I had said earlier, review 

14 all of the comments, try and categorize them, 

15 try and summarize them wherever possible and 

16 come up with some summary.

17 And then, at that point that sort 

18 of concludes Phase 1. Then, to bring that 

19 back to us for us to be able to provide the 

20 guidance that you are thinking of and then 

21 help to modify the scope and give this working 

22 group better guidance on what we want them to 
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1 accomplish, and then set them off to go do 

2 Phase 2, and then come back with the final 

3 recommendation.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? So that had 

5 -- that was a clear proposal right there. 

6 What do you think? Could DOE work its 

7 timetable to effect that? Yes? Yeah? Okay.

8 So, then, we have -- maybe we will 

9 put that to a decision, a vote of the 

10 committee. Does anyone dissent from the 

11 following proposal as put out there by John, 

12 that Phase 1 would be for DOE to review a 

13 catalogue and summarize the comments and make 

14 those available and send them to ASRAC; and 

15 then, as Phase 2, ASRAC would review --

16 MR. CASKEY: I intended the 

17 working group be established and do what 

18 normally DOE would have done as to --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh.

20 MR. CASKEY: -- evaluate the RFI 

21 for --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I apologize. I 
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1 missed that.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So DOE can help in 

3 the comment summary. So instead of doing the 

4 responses, it would be up to this working 

5 group to create those responses, at which time 

6 Phase 2 would kick in, which is your -- the 

7 guidance of this group.

8 MR. CASKEY: Yes. So specifically 

9 I would say the working group would review the 

10 responses to the RFI. They would try and 

11 categorize them and group them together and, 

12 you know, maybe organize them by how they 

13 entered the particular questions, come up with 

14 some sort of summary. 

15 And then, at that point, that 

16 would be the end of Phase 1, and then come 

17 back to ASRAC for evaluation of that summary 

18 and for guidance on doing Phase 2, which would 

19 be to come up with some more of a 

20 recommendation.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So that didn't fit 

22 with John's concern about turning loose --
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1 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, Phase 1 

2 sounds like the job of DOE. So I don't know 

3 if you want to take Federal Register time to 

4 empanel a group of people to do that.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I missed it, but 

6 that's where I thought you were going. I 

7 thought you were saying DOE should do Phase 1.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to do a 

9 modified version of Phase 1, because I really 

10 like to summarize and respond to comments.

11 I don't think DOE would have an 

12 issue assisting with summarizing all of the 

13 comments and providing them to a working 

14 group. I think, really, what we are looking 

15 for a working group to do would be to review 

16 all of the responses to the RFI and almost 

17 come up with either pros and cons and/or 

18 recommendations to each of the questions posed 

19 in the RFI for ASRAC to consider as to whether 

20 we even proceed with commercial labeling 

21 generally.

22 So I'm going to take it a step 
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1 further. I don't really see them -- the 

2 summary as the value coming out of the working 

3 group. I see it more as, okay, we asked each 

4 of these questions, and there may be other 

5 considerations we didn't consider.

6 What is the consensus approach to 

7 those questions, basically?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: And that would be a 

9 working group that would take the summary that 

10 was created based on the comments by DOE and 

11 they would do a pro and con and 

12 recommendations in response to the RFI 

13 questions at a minimum.

14 MR. PETERSON: Just another 

15 process question, and this is -- if that first 

16 phase happens, it comes back to ASRAC, ASRAC 

17 approves it, it doesn't necessarily have to go 

18 to DOE, right? We can --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It can go back to 

20 the working group, too.

21 MR. PETERSON: -- go out with the 

22 second working group.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Steve.

3 MR. COUSINS: A concern I've got 

4 here is any working group doing conclusive 

5 work, without ASRAC having the opportunity to 

6 frame this up in any way, shape, or form --

7 and here is why I say that. Hey, there are a 

8 lot of commodities that are represented there.

9 We only have 25 people on the 

10 working group. Are they going to represent 

11 all of those -- I don't think so. I think we 

12 have -- we have got a broader, overarching 

13 oversight with regard to -- if I understand 

14 why this group has even been formed, I think 

15 this is a classic advisory task that we have 

16 that it seems that we want to try to say, 

17 well, not in this case.

18 I would hate to take this to a 

19 working group and ask them to draw conclusions 

20 without us having the opportunity to put some 

21 framework around this. That's just my point 

22 of view.
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1 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, I thought 

2 what I heard was that you would summarize the 

3 comments for us, and then we would digest that 

4 and then determine what the working group 

5 should do. I don't think -- to me it is not a 

6 question of should we have a working group or 

7 not. It's just what is the charter of that 

8 working group going to be?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And the sequence.

10 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: And the 

11 sequence. And so maybe we take baby steps 

12 here, and the first step is, you know, you 

13 have to do the summary anyway. You know, do 

14 the summary and provide it to us, so we have 

15 the benefit of it, and then we have -- then we 

16 understand where the four corners are to 

17 empanel a working group.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So the sequence --

19 so it would be as follows. The proposal would 

20 be for DOE to take the responses to the RFI, 

21 review, categorize, and summarize those 

22 comments. They would send that back to ASRAC, 
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1 and ASRAC would look at them, and, as John 

2 says, consider it and maybe define boundary 

3 conditions, the four corners, and the like.

4 That would result in guidance 

5 being sent to the working group itself, and 

6 then the working group would get on with the 

7 business of doing a more complete review, 

8 pros, cons, and recommendations based on the 

9 RFI questions at a minimum and perhaps more. 

10 That's the proposal that is 

11 emerging. Are you comfortable with that, 

12 Steve? You're comfortable with that.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think -- so the 

14 last part about it, I mean, if we are going to 

15 do summaries, then ASRAC wants to be the one 

16 to review those summaries and look at the 

17 questions in the RFI and then define the scope 

18 for the working committee.

19 I don't think the working 

20 committee at that point is coming up with 

21 recommendations for the five questions in the 

22 RFI.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: There are only five 

2 questions?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, no. There may 

4 be more. I'm just -- whatever it is.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, at that 

7 point I think the working group is coming up 

8 with a commercial labeling strategy.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: That is, ASRAC is 

10 the working group that is going to come up 

11 with the labeling --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. We would 

13 vote. We would vote to determine whether we 

14 wanted to form a working group. We would have 

15 the response -- you know, we would have the 

16 summaries for the RFI. We would take our 

17 positions and say based on the summaries, this 

18 is what we think. 

19 We need to vote as to whether 

20 commercial labeling RFI -- I mean, this could 

21 go on forever. It's just a matter of, do we 

22 want to do it ourselves, which is going to 
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1 push it out a couple months? Or do we want to 

2 just form a working group to deal with coming 

3 up with recommendations from the RFI?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or ASRAC. I mean, 

6 ASRAC is never out of the process, to your 

7 point. I mean, the working group is going to 

8 come back to ASRAC, so --

9 MR. COUSINS: My concern is having 

10 any group -- DOE, working group, whatever --

11 come to ASRAC having already filtered out a 

12 lot of things, a lot of findings, a lot of --

13 done the filtering and done the making 

14 conclusions, basically leaving us with the 

15 position of a yea or a nay without providing 

16 any kind of framework. That's my comment.

17 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: How about you 

18 should be on the working group, Steve?

19 (Laughter.)

20 I mean, that sounds like what --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is going to 

22 happen.
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1 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: I can't be on 

2 every working group, so I think we need to be 

3 able to delegate to working groups and --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Two or three 

5 individuals have said they want to be on the 

6 working group. So we know that.

7 Tom Eckman.

8 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Maybe it's my 

9 schedule, but I don't see a working group 

10 reading through comments and summarizing them. 

11 That seems to me to be a staff function.

12 And then, bringing those comments 

13 back to us so we could determine what the 

14 scope of work is after that, whether there is 

15 a scope of work after that, is something we 

16 can make a recommendation to DOE on and judge 

17 it in that sequence.

18 So we see the comments and see 

19 where the -- you know, if there is a lot of 

20 contention or if there is a lot of consensus 

21 about this on some of those questions that you 

22 queued up, then we have a way to scope -- go 
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1 work on this, we need a workgroup to bring 

2 that to closure, there seems to be consensus

3 on that.

4 But until I see the comments and 

5 the responses, a summary of those, I don't 

6 have any way to scope what the next phase 

7 looks like. Whether I'd vote up or down on 

8 labeling, I don't know what the questions are 

9 or what the comments are. 

10 So I -- you know, staff could 

11 bring back a summary, and then I've got 

12 something to work with. But right now I don't 

13 have anything to work with in terms of even a 

14 context.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So the proposal on 

16 the table -- and I'm glad we are not doing 

17 this via Robert's Rules -- would be for DOE to 

18 take the responses from the RFI, categorize 

19 them, summarize them, and then send them back 

20 to ASRAC. ASRAC would, in a very short amount 

21 -- rather short amount of time, figure out 

22 what to do with them, provide guidance 
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1 perhaps. 

2 ASRAC would be the body that would 

3 provide more detailed comments and guidance or 

4 maybe at that point they would create a 

5 working group to decide what to do with and to 

6 create the kind of product that Ashley 

7 described -- pros, cons, and recs on the RFI 

8 questions. That's the proposal on the table.

9 DR. HUNGERFORD: I guess I want to 

10 ask a -- there's an assumption in that that a 

11 normal part of the process for DOE is to 

12 create a formal summary of comments. And the 

13 question I have is, would this add significant 

14 workload to you guys to have this part of the 

15 process where that summary were provided to 

16 this group?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to do 

18 it anyway, so we can provide it.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Whether you want 

20 to delegate the -- looking at the summary to a 

21 subcommittee or to you, well, that --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the way I 
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1 see it. Do we want to -- I mean, this is 

2 going to require us to meet webinar or by 

3 phone multiple times over the next couple of 

4 months to make the decision and to review the 

5 -- and discuss these comments and --

6 MR. ECKMAN: I think my -- I 

7 envisioned that we would see an executive 

8 summary of the comments by topic area, 

9 whatever the questions were. That we are not 

10 reading and reinterpreting what you -- that 

11 staff look at. It is just, this is what was 

12 said, so many lined up this way, so many lined 

13 up this way, and these look to be multiple 

14 opinions about this issue. There is consensus 

15 around that.

16 It's an analytical judgment about 

17 who weighs in on what side, but it's not a 

18 conclusion and I don't think we're -- I wasn't 

19 envisioning reading a 70-page summary of 

20 comments. It was pretty high level, these are 

21 the big issues, these are the big comments, 

22 there is consensus here, there is not 
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1 consensus there. Something like that that has 

2 got some context to it, because the --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So typically the 

4 way our process works is we will summarize 

5 each of the individual comments by commenters. 

6 Now, whether or not we take it up further and 

7 provide an executive summary is on the table. 

8 The question becomes, do we delegate to a 

9 working group rather than ourselves, to come 

10 up -- you know, weigh those issues? It's just 

11 a matter of, how much do you want to take on 

12 yourself?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

14 MR. COUSINS: All right. This 

15 committee advises and provides guidance. I 

16 think that's what we said. So you have your 

17 -- you summarize your findings, you 

18 consolidate and summarize your findings. You 

19 say, "Committee, advise and guide." And we 

20 may say, "Okay. Working group is next to do 

21 A, B, C, and D."

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. David?
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1 DR. HUNGERFORD: Yeah. It seems 

2 like the threshold question in -- if we were 

3 provided the comments when they are available, 

4 the summarized comments, that we could --

5 there are only a couple of things that ASRAC 

6 would need to answer, and that is the 

7 threshold question of whether we -- whether a 

8 working group should be formed. 

9 And the second would be what that 

10 -- some scope definition for the task of that 

11 working group, and that that would be all that 

12 would be required. It wouldn't be a series of 

13 meetings. It wouldn't be endless discussion. 

14 It would merely -- it would be something that 

15 could be taken care of in one webinar.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Andrew?

17 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: I concur to 

18 proceed as you describe. And, I mean, just --

19 I think just as a reminder, you know, this is 

20 going to go forward whether we commission a 

21 working group or not. So the question is, the 

22 Department basically inviting a working group 
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1 to help them shape how they are going to do 

2 this. 

3 So we decided not to commission a 

4 working group. That means that we are saying 

5 you all go figure it out.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

7 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: So I guess 

8 that's where I'm coming from on this and I --

9 this is not a --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So it seems as 

11 though we have the kernel of an agreement 

12 emerging here. And it -- and as I understand 

13 it, it is that DOE will receive its comments 

14 on the RFI by March 21. In some sort span of 

15 time, you will summarize/categorize those 

16 comments, and you will send those to ASRAC.

17 ASRAC will consider what is there, 

18 and you will decide whether a working group 

19 needs to be formed, and what the scope and 

20 definitions surrounding that working group 

21 might be if you were to form it.

22 And also, ASRAC might decide 
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1 itself to create some additional contour or 

2 boundaries, that sort of stuff, whether it 

3 creates a working group or not. I think those 

4 are the options.

5 So I am going to -- John, Ashley, 

6 comments in by March 31, a summary produced 

7 by --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sometime in April.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Mid-April. Tax 

10 day, April 15 or so. So we are going to be in 

11 abeyance for a good long while.

12 Okay. So I'm going to move the 

13 question on that last proposal. Should I 

14 repeat it? No. Okay. Does anyone dissent 

15 from proceeding as I just described -- DOE do 

16 a bunch of work, push it to ASRAC, ASRAC 

17 considers what it's got via probably a webinar 

18 in the short timeframe turnaround, consider 

19 whether a working group needs to be formed, 

20 and, if that is the case, provide scope and 

21 definition or perhaps ASRAC will take the 

22 initiative to provide additional contour 
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1 boundaries, and the like.

2 That's the proposal. Does anyone 

3 dissent? So once again we have a unanimous 

4 agreement. Thanks to all of you for that.

5 So we have agreed to create a 

6 working group for HVAC. We have established a 

7 process for the commercial labeling. And we 

8 have tabled, for the moment, fans and pumps 

9 and test procedures on residential water 

10 heaters. And that's what we have decided to 

11 do at this first stage of endeavor.

12 Does anybody -- we are over time 

13 at this point. Anybody want to raise 

14 additional issues before we move to additional 

15 next steps?

16 Yes, John.

17 MR. CASKEY: I don't know what 

18 your definition of "additional issues" is, but 

19 I think it would be good to be able to scope 

20 out some of these other ideas that we've got 

21 on the board. And I don't know whether that 

22 is for you to do or DOE or whether you want 
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1 help from volunteers here to do some of that, 

2 but I think that's an action item that needs 

3 to be done I would say within the next month 

4 or so.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking that 

6 we would cover that in next steps. And I was 

7 going to lean heavily on Ashley and John to 

8 help describe, among these items that have 

9 been listed here, and perhaps others, how we 

10 can inform the committee about what is 

11 involved with each one of those items.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the 

13 Department could take the first step, unless 

14 there is any like process-related ones that 

15 anyone wanted to vote on today. But I think 

16 the Department could take the first step at 

17 fleshing some of these out, and then the 

18 committee could -- we could circulate it, and 

19 the committee could add, edit, ask questions 

20 from there. I could circulate it, if that's 

21 okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: John.
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1 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Agree. And 

2 then, what about the idea that was raised in 

3 the public comment period about the ability 

4 for the general public to suggest ideas for 

5 ASRAC?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you can 

7 just send an email to the ASRAC email address 

8 at any time. I know Gary mentioned he had a 

9 dozen or so ideas. I'm sure plenty of others 

10 do. I think you should just send the email to 

11 ASRAC and that can get disseminated to the 

12 committee, or, you know, handled -- or put on 

13 the next agenda for discussion kind of thing.

14 Would that work for everyone?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: You're the 

16 Designated Federal Official. Is Jeremiah or 

17 someone the Secretariat here? Does it all go 

18 in one big pot or --

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: I am the 

20 figurehead and he is the one who actually does

21 the work. Is that what you just said?

22 (Laughter.)
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1 Sounds right.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. But, yeah, so 

4 there's a docket and there's also the email 

5 box. So --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Great.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- either way.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that is a 

9 next step, as just described. 

10 Other next steps? Well, one would 

11 be the mechanics of creating the working 

12 group, the HVAC working group, and we laid out 

13 how that would get done. 

14 There will be a complete 

15 transcript of this meeting made available. 

16 James has been over here diligently taking 

17 care of things. 

18 Jeremiah, are you going to do sort 

19 of a more -- a summary, executive summary? 

20 More than an executive summary; a summary of 

21 this meeting contents. So that will be 

22 available in what kind of a timeframe?
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1 MR. FREEMAN: Probably a week or 

2 so.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: A week or so. 

4 Okay.

5 And then, any other next steps 

6 that --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Next meeting?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Next meeting. Next 

9 meeting. I've got a calendar here in front of 

10 me. What kind of a timeframe are you 

11 thinking?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the next 

13 meeting could be by phone. And I don't know, 

14 somewhere between -- it would seem somewhere 

15 between 30 days and 45 days when we have those 

16 nominations in for the commercial -- or we 

17 have the applications in for the commercial 

18 cert, so we can go ahead and act on that 

19 pretty quickly.

20 And then, maybe by then the 

21 Department will have some fleshing out of some 

22 of this stuff.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Forty-five days 

2 from the end of February would be the middle 

3 of April.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I would say 

5 shoot for the beginning of April in the hopes 

6 that we can actually get that stuff done in 30 

7 days.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because that's 

10 what we are going to shoot for.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: If possible.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: The other thing was 

14 that by -- you were saying by around about 

15 April 15 that would be when the -- you would 

16 have the comments for the RFI compiled.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Yeah. 

18 We'll have -- people won't be able to digest 

19 them. So that will have to be at the followup 

20 meeting.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. Okay.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: But at least for 
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1 this one I don't think we want to hold up the 

2 commercial cert working group, and we will 

3 need the committee's input for the actual 

4 nominations.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Scheduling is 

6 always a difficult thing. Sometimes it is 

7 easier for people to do things perhaps at the 

8 beginning of the week or the end of the week 

9 rather than the middle of the week. 

10 John?

11 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: What I 

12 recommend is we have the general timeframe as 

13 we did for this meeting. Jeremiah sent out a 

14 poll for us to --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

16 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: -- with some 

17 options that we could --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: -- react to and 

20 --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So we're talking 

22 around about April 1, and perhaps that first 
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1 week or no later than two. Okay? Jeremiah, 

2 yes? April 1st? Yeah.

3 CO-CHAIR deLASKI: And I would add 

4 the potential agenda item for that meeting 

5 that we would at that point perhaps be able to 

6 take up some additional topics that may be 

7 appropriate, and we may be able to --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I will try to 

10 circulate some of the more fleshed-out ideas 

11 from this in a document, so we can start 

12 thinking about them.

13 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Right. And 

14 then the two technologies.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. That's --

16 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Pumps -- or 

17 fans and pumps.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

19 CO-CHAIR MANDYCK: Hear people out 

20 on that.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: And then, as a 

22 practice, we also have already said that ideas 
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1 that come in from outside the committee, those 

2 will be gathered and sent to committee members 

3 to consider as well.

4 So for my part, I think we're done 

5 here, and I would just turn it back to John 

6 and Ashley. 

7 Thank you all. Very, very 

8 productive meeting. Congratulations on being 

9 composed as an Advisory Committee. It is no 

10 small matter for the Department of Energy to 

11 create an Advisory Committee, and there is 

12 really, we hope, a tremendous amount of 

13 potential here. So congratulations to you 

14 all.

15 Back to John.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would echo that. 

17 And I think all of you just took on a lot of 

18 work, which I'm very impressed. I tried to 

19 get you to delegate, but you wouldn't do it.

20 (Laughter.)

21 And now you will learn the lesson. 

22 No, but honestly, I think everything we said 
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1 today I think just supports what we said in 

2 the beginning of the meeting, that I think we 

3 can get a lot accomplished with this group. 

4 And so I appreciate that we formed the 

5 committee -- the working group, and let's go 

6 from there and see how it goes.

7 So thanks. Thanks again.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. Safe 

9 travels.

10 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

11 matter went off the record at 4:19 p.m.)

12

13

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day-to-day 172:12

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deadline 163:13

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95:20 96:15 97:21

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85:17 86:2,7

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147:18 223:17

8

8E-089 1:9

9

9:59 5:2

90 69:4

99 105:2
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

358

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking

Federal Advisory Committee

US DOE

02-26-13

Washington, DC