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95–272 2016

S. HRG. 114–158 

THE ADMINISTRATION’S QUADRENNIAL ENERGY 

REVIEW (QER) 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

THE ADMINISTRATION’S QUADRENNIAL ENERGY REVIEW (QER) 

APRIL 28, 2015 

( 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Energy and Natural Resources 


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COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman 

JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming 

JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho 

MIKE LEE, Utah 

JEFF FLAKE, Arizona 

STEVE DAINES, Montana 

BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana 

CORY GARDNER, Colorado 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota 

LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee 

SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

RON WYDEN, Oregon 

BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont 

DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan 

AL FRANKEN, Minnesota 

JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia 

MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico 

MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii 

ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine 

ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts 

KAREN K. BILLUPS, Staff Director 

PATRICK J. MCCORMICK III, Chief Counsel 

BRIANNE MILLER, Professional Staff Member 

ANGELA BECKER-DIPPMANN, Democratic Staff Director 

SAM E. FOWLER, Democratic Chief Counsel 

SCOTT MCKEE, Democratic Professional Staff Member 


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C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page 

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman, and a U.S. Senator from Alaska .................. 1 

Cantwell, Hon. Maria, Ranking Member, and a U.S. Senator from Washington .................................................................................................................... 3 

WITNESSES 

Moniz, Hon. Ernest, Secretary, U.S. Department of Energy ............................... 21 

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED 

Barrasso, Hon. John 

Politico article dated April 28, 2015 entitled ‘‘Ernest Moniz ‘Rock Star’ ’’ ... 39 

Cantwell, Hon. Maria 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 3 

Politico article dated 4/21/15 entitled ‘‘Pipelines blow up and people die’’ .. 4 

Moniz, Hon. Ernest 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 21 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 24 

Responses to Questions for the Record ........................................................... 411 

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 1 

Quadrennial Energy Review ................................................................................... 64 


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THE ADMINISTRATION’S QUADRENNIAL 

ENERGY REVIEW 

TUESDAY, APRIL 28, 2015 

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES, Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:06 a.m. in room 

SD–366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lisa Murkowski, 

Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI, U.S. 

SENATOR FROM ALASKA 

The CHAIRMAN. The hearing will now come to order. We are here 

this morning to review the first installment of the Quadrennial Energy Review. We call it the ‘‘QER’’ around here. 

We are pleased to have Secretary Moniz back before the Committee. This is your second time so far this year. We greatly appreciate not only the public engagement but the time that I know you 

give each of us as you come to either discuss issues in our offices 

or through your frequent phone calls. I appreciate that engagement 

and that outreach. I think it is very helpful. 

Secretary Moniz oversaw the development of this report at the 

Department of Energy. Again, I think many of us have had an opportunity to have a little bit of discussion on this report, but this 

morning is our opportunity as a Committee to review it. 

In the United States we take it for granted that when we flip a 

switch the lights turn on, that our devices charge up when we plug 

them into the wall, that when we pull off to the side of the road 

to fill up at a gas station when we are on a family trip that everything works. 

We live in a country that has abundant resources and innovative 

technologies that make our way of life and our standard of living 

the envy of many around the world. We should be proud of the tremendous progress that has been made but also recognize that nothing is guaranteed to stay this way. This is particularly true when 

it comes to our energy infrastructure which I think we will all acknowledge is facing serious challenges across the country right 

now. 

We regularly focus on opportunities to improve energy infrastructure in this Committee. Already this year we have held hearings 

on innovation related to the electric grid, increased oil production, 

our opportunities in the Arctic and the importance of pipeline infrastructure. I think today’s hearing is a good next step. 

The QER looks at our nation’s energy infrastructure at a critical 

time. Many of our systems are aging and in urgent need of modernization. We have seen dramatic increases, of course, in energy 


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production. Oil and gas are at record levels. The market penetration of variable power generation is on the rise, and the stress 

placed on our systems has increased faster than it can be addressed. 

The QER makes a number of recommendations to alleviate these 

current deficiencies. In many cases the solution is new spending 

adding up to potentially billions of dollars, but I think it is important to note that the vast majority of the nation’s infrastructure is 

privately owned and sustained and improved by private investment. 

At the same time, I understand that advancing our energy infrastructure will require some Federal funding even within our constrained budgets, but Federal spending is not all that matters. So 

do regulations, particularly those that hold back projects and private investments. We have to keep that in mind as we seek to find 

a better balance. 

As I go out and talk to folks in Alaska, or really anywhere in the 

country, so many of the business interests when they are talking 

about infrastructure and where we are say ‘‘Oh, what we really 

need is some level of certainty. We want some level of certainty so 

that we can go ahead and make these substantial investments.’’ 

Now as we are here to discuss infrastructure today I do think 

that it is relevant to point out that the Keystone XL pipeline has 

now been delayed for over 2400 days. We have, in my state, a critically important piece of infrastructure, the TransAlaska pipeline 

system. It is something that I worry about and recognize that without ensuring that pipeline has the resources that it carries it is a 

piece of infrastructure that could face declining health and 

strength. 

It is one thing to write a report outlining our infrastructure challenges but another to set out proactively to solve them every day. 

Any modernization of energy policy should, in my view, visit the de 

facto ban on oil exports that we have imposed over 40 years ago. 

I think the QER is too light in that regard. I was, however, pleased 

to see it recognize the unique issues that impact the Arctic and the 

valuable role the United States can play as the Chair of the Arctic 

Council. 

I was with Secretary Kerry on Friday as we were up in Iqaluit 

in Nunavut. Again, understanding our role as an Arctic nation 

there, I think, is key, and I appreciate the focus that has been 

given. 

We know that we have significant infrastructure challenges, and 

we know that we are going to have to work together to solve them. 

That goes for the members of this Committee as well as we work 

on a broad energy bill noting that infrastructure is one of our key 

titles within that bill. It also goes for Congress and the Administration as well, working together here. We can use the QER as a reference piece or a template to weigh ideas and discover potential solutions for our energy bill, and we have discussed that with the 

Secretary. 

Mr. Secretary, with you as the face and the focus behind the effort, I do think we have an opportunity here to make considerable 

progress on infrastructure issues as we move forward with that. I 


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thank you again for your leadership and look forward to you outlining the terms of the report this morning. 

With that, I will turn to Senator Cantwell. 

STATEMENT OF HON. MARIA CANTWELL, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

WASHINGTON 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair, for holding this 

important hearing on transforming U.S. energy infrastructure. 

I thank Secretary Moniz for all that he does shuttling back and 

forth between Iran sanction discussions and the Quadrennial Energy Review—it must be a wide breadth of focus, so thank you very 

much. 

This hearing today is particularly important because infrastructure is the link of all the components of our national energy system, and it is increasingly complex. It is interdependent, and it is 

certainly, as the report shows, in need of an upgrade. 

As we begin the legislative process of crafting what we hope becomes a bipartisan energy bill, it is essential to have a good grasp 

of both the data and existing analysis of the infrastructure that 

supports these energy systems. The need for reliable and efficient 

supplies of energy is becoming closely intertwined with our economic growth and competitiveness. That is why it is even more important that we understand the trends affecting the infrastructure 

deliveries of these commodities. 

For instance, there has been a surge in the amount of crude oil 

transported by rail in the last five years. In a five-year period 

starting in 2009, there was an increase of roughly 4,400 percent in 

the volume of rail shipments. This trend has had a number of implications. 

For example, crude oil now competes with other commodities 

more traditional transported by rail, which has caused delays in 

the delivery of crops and agricultural products to market. The report explicitly states that these recent, unexpected shifts in supply 

and demand for rail services have resulted in disruptions to agricultural shipments that ‘‘exceed even those caused by Hurricane 

Katrina.’’ 

The Department of Agriculture’s Agricultural Marketing Service 

concluded that, ‘‘the current rail service problems have exceeded 

previous events in terms of both magnitude and duration, including 

Hurricane Katrina, which caused major disruptions throughout the 

entire agricultural transportation network.’’ 

A number of high-profile incidents have also underscored major 

safety concerns and point to the need for us to revisit existing regulatory structures. As the Quadrennial Energy Review notes, ‘‘these 

accidents have highlighted the need for additional monitoring, enforcement, and inspection, as well as setting new safety design requirements for tank cars.’’ 

Back here, we have all the oil and rail industries pointing fingers 

at one another. Some are asking serious questions about the competence of certain regulatory agencies like PHMSA within the Department of Transportation. I want to submit an article for the 

record that was just written last week about PHMSA. 

[The information referred to follows:] 


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Senator CANTWELL. I also want to thank you, Secretary Moniz, 

for helping to bring data to bear on these policy questions because 

it is clear that our work is not done here. The Departments of 

Transportation and Agriculture, and the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission must continue to develop their understanding of 

how rail congestion may be affecting the delivery of energy and agriculture commodities and the safety implications. 

Obviously outdated and aging infrastructure carries safety risks, 

and can also be a barrier to entry for new technologies. Investing 

in infrastructure upgrades enables the vast benefits of new technologies to increase efficiency, improve reliability and create jobs. 

In fact, projections indicate that, by 2030, the energy sector overall will employ an additional 1.5 million workers and changes in 

the electricity sector, in particularly, can affect the number and 

types in energy jobs. New technologies require new skills and training in the electricity workforce. And I am glad to see that was part 

of the report. 

Older business models are going to change as our economy 

evolves. The electricity business must keep pace with the innovation and continue to be efficient, flexible and advanced. This work 

is important because our grid, I believe, is a platform. It is a platform for products and services and technology, not only in the 

United States of America but for electricity all around the globe. 

I was struck yesterday by the reports that solar lamps were the 

only public lighting sources initially available in parts of Nepal 

after the tragic earthquake and avalanche this weekend. So new 

technologies play a role—at home and abroad—in making energy 

systems more secure and resilient. 

Here in the U.S., we have been working with our laboratories in 

developing polices that inform infrastructure investment strategies. 

In terms of the electricity sector, we know that different states 

have different geographic priorities and different mixes of energy. 

But it is my hope that we can accelerate the modernization of our 

grid by ensuring that best practices and innovations driven from 

the ground-up can be implemented. 

As the Quadrennial Energy Review also notes, most of our nation’s transmission, storage and distribution infrastructure is 

owned and operated by the private sector. That is why an important aspect of accelerating new infrastructure technologies is a 

public-private partnership that is called for in the report. 

In 2008, the Edison Electric Institute estimated that, by 2030, 

the U.S. electric utility industry would need to make a total infrastructure investment of $1.5 trillion to $2 trillion. Analyses conducted for this review by the Administration suggest that natural 

gas interstate pipeline investment will range between $39 billion 

and $52 billion between the similar time period and depending on 

overall natural gas demand. 

So what is the cost of doing nothing? Between 2003 and 2012, 

an estimated 679 widespread power outages occurred due to severe 

weather, which cost the U.S. economy $18 billion to $33 billion 

each year between 2003 and 2013. And, as I mentioned, the Politico 

article from last week talks about spills, leaks and explosions from 

oil and gas pipelines that have caused a total of $5.5 billion in 

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So investments that promote innovative solutions to enhance energy infrastructure resilience, reliability and security clearly have 

huge benefits to our economy, and I think that is what the report 

is trying to outline. 

Thank you very much for keeping our focus on what we need to 

do to take advantage of our energy resources but make them work 

better for the years ahead. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Cantwell. 

Now we will turn to the Honorable Secretary Moniz, Secretary 

of Energy, for your comments this morning and look forward to a 

series of questions after. 

Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF HON. ERNEST MONIZ, SECRETARY, U.S. 

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, thank you, Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell and other distinguished members of the 

Committee. I very much appreciate the opportunity to discuss with 

you the Quadrennial Energy Review, and I also thank you for the 

patience of the Committee in terms of the scheduling of this hearing. 

I am going to ask for your indulgence to make a slight detour, 

picking up on what Senator Cantwell said about our other missions 

because I just want to say a little bit about the accomplishments 

of the Department of Energy just in the last several weeks. 

We have many missions, nuclear security, energy, science, waste 

management and cleanup. I just wanted to note that just in the 

last four weeks, as you saw, our laboratories, etcetera, have been 

a major support in the Iran negotiations. On energy we are here 

today to discuss the QER that just came out. On science we just 

completed the coal announcement which is the next big step on 

supercomputing on the way to Exascale. And on the waste side we 

had the important decision a few weeks ago to pursue defense 

waste in a targeted way. So I just wanted to say that this Department is doing work in a whole, broad range of areas, and I think, 

with great accomplishment. 

Senator CANTWELL. Madam Chairman, I do not know if that 

means that energy is at the center of all things? 

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. 

Senator CANTWELL. Or Ernie Moniz is at the center of all things. 

Secretary MONIZ. No, no, no. 

This is the Department of Energy. But let me—— 

Senator CANTWELL. Well, we are glad for it either way. Thank 

you. 

Secretary MONIZ. And our laboratories are huge glue in terms of 

pursuing all these missions. So, I just couldn’t pass that up. 

Anyway, QER. 

So again, last week the Administration released a first installment and as you know, focused on energy transmission, storage 

and distribution, including the huge network of pipes, wires, storage, waterways, railroads and other facilities that really are the 

backbone of our energy systems. 

The QER comes at a time, as the Chair said, of a pretty dramatic 

energy revolution in our country, and we are reaping tremendous 


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benefits but we are also seeing the challenges to our infrastructure 

for transporting, storing and distributing these energy supplies, infrastructure developed decades ago for a different energy world. 

These new challenges require us to modernize and transform the 

energy infrastructure to meet environmental security and competitiveness goals for the next decades, indeed for this century. So with 

that in mind, President Obama established this QER task force. It 

had 22 agencies involved just demonstrating the breadth of the equities in the energy system, co-chaired by the Director of the Office 

of Science and Technology Policy and Domestic Policy Councils, 

Special Assistant to the President for Energy and Climate. 

Department of Energy was the Executive Secretariat for the task 

force and performed or commissioned an extensive number of technical and scientific analyses. Our Office of Energy Policy and Systems Analysis did much of the heavy lifting for this QER. We undertook an open, transparent process involving experts and stakeholders that included 14 public meetings around the country and 

also a meeting in Canada and discussions with our Mexico compatriots. 

We released a final document, as you know, a week ago, and 

that’s available on the Web. The first installment provides policy 

makers, we think, with a road map for meeting, again, our key energy objectives. There are several cross-cutting themes also covered 

including jobs, environment, infrastructure citing and importantly, 

the integration of North American energy markets. 

Let me just highlight a few recommendations. 

For example, on resilience, clearly a national priority, resilience, 

reliability, safety and security of our infrastructure. For example, 

we recommend establishing a competitive program of targeted 

funding to accelerate pipeline replacement. Enhanced maintenance 

programs for natural gas distribution systems, another, by the way, 

very big ticket facing our country about a quarter trillion dollars 

over the next decades. 

Supporting the updating and expansion of state energy assurance 

plans and then establishing a competitive grant program to promote innovative solutions from the states for enhancing energy infrastructure, resilience and reliability. That competitive program to 

move the needle would ultimately require $3 to $5 billion over a 

decade. 

We also recommend looking at and mitigating the risks associated with the loss of large transformers. We make recommendations on modernizing the electric grid. Once again, a strong emphasis on providing state financial assistance to promote and integrate 

TS and D infrastructure investment plans for reliability, affordability, efficiency and lower carbon generation. 

Our two state planning grant programs we recommend in our FY 

’16 budget, $63 million combined for those activities. 

Clearly we promote grid modernization. Another example of 

something that is in our FY ’16 budget but only a down payment, 

but we estimate to be a $3.5 billion need of Federal expenditures 

to help with grid modernization. 

A few other recommendations I will just touch on. 

Importantly we need investments to optimize the petroleum reserve both to upgrade it, maintenance, distribution capacity, but 


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also recommend with Congress revisiting of SPRO release authorities to reflect modern oil markets. 

We look at associative infrastructures and, for example, support 

a new program of competitively awarded grants for shared energy 

transport assets such as key interconnectors from our energy intensive ports. We feel that’s a very important, not very expensive, but 

very important activity to address critical energy data gaps in rail 

transport of energy commodities and supplies. 

We support alternative funding mechanisms for our waterways, 

and we strongly emphasize collaborating with our Canadian and 

Mexican counterparts, for example, in what is already proving to 

be a successful integration of how we collect and share data, energy 

data. 

To conclude, the Administration’s budget request, as I indicated, 

does include a down payment on some of the key recommendations. 

But clearly, to move forward, we will need a bipartisan commitment to modernize the nation’s energy infrastructure. 

We look forward to working with members of this Committee and 

others in Congress to take these next steps. As I pointed out earlier 

we are today living with the infrastructure decisions in investments made decades ago. And similarly the next generation will 

look at our decisions taken and those not taken for how we shape 

the energy infrastructure and the energy system in the decades 

ahead. 

So thank you, Chairman Murkowski and Ranking Member Cantwell, members of the Committee. I look forward to our discussion. 

[The prepared statement of Secretary Moniz follows:] 


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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Again, we appreciate 

your leadership on this and the opportunity to work with you going 

forward. 

This is a big report. There is a lot in it. There is much to consider, but we see a lot of good, thoughtful reports with much to consider that come before us here in the Congress. 

One complaint that many of us have is, and this is not directed 

at you, we see these good, strong, solid reports, but then there is 

no follow through with legislative proposals coming out of the Administration. 

One example is the Energy Trust Fund from last Congress. I had 

proposed it. The President actually noted it in one of the State of 

the Unions, but we never really saw anything happen from that. 

So the question, very broadly, is how do you envision a plan for 

engagement with this Committee, with the Congress, on the QER 

beyond this hearing? Are you looking for input from members of 

Congress here? Are you going to send us legislative text? How do 

you view moving forward from a broader perspective? 

Secretary MONIZ. Madam Chair, if I may give a little historical 

perspective. I was co-chair of the President’s Council of Advisors 

Science and Technology Task Force that recommended doing the 

QER a few years ago. And as we were contemplating this we met 

with many members of Congress. 

And it was interesting, we thought, that many of the members 

emphasized their interest in this QER, because they felt that a 

process that brought together many agencies that have so many 

energy equities to the Congress which frankly, while we have, just 

like we have a Department of Energy, we have a Committee on Energy. But many other Committees having equities in this that this 

might provide a good basis for the kind of discussion that we need 

for a more comprehensive look. 

We now have the product. I believe it could really help us in our 

Administration Congress, both chambers, both sides of the aisle 

discussion. So I certainly and I know many of my colleagues, now 

that we have what we hope can be a road map for much of our discussion, want to engage in that discussion certainly in both chambers. 

The CHAIRMAN. I would encourage you to do that. As you know 

we are looking on this side to build an energy reform bill that is 

broad and comprehensive in scope, and many of the proposals that 

you are outlining in the QER I think we can look to. I know that 

on the House side they are doing the same. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. But that is going to take a level of active engagement, and we are going to need your leadership on that. 

Secretary MONIZ. We are totally prepared for that, and we would 

be eager to engage in those discussions. 

The CHAIRMAN. Right. 

Let me ask you about a specific infrastructure project. As you 

know we have extraordinary quantities of natural gas in Alaska, 

but what we lack right now is the infrastructure to move that natural gas to market. 

This week we have Mr. Abe, from Japan, here in Washington, 

DC. Believe me, Alaskans would love to sell that natural gas to 


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Asia, to Japan, but it is a huge project. We are looking at a project 

anywhere upwards of $60 to $65 billion, world class in its scope, 

really unparalleled. 

You have mentioned before this Committee and to me that the 

process for evaluating the license for the Alaska LNG project is, 

kind of, in a different category, if you will, from projects in the 

lower 48. Can you just, again, assure me that you are pursuing a 

conditional license for the Alaska LNG project and that in this 

process going forward that this project is receiving your full attention? 

Secretary MONIZ. Yes, I am happy to repeat that. We view, 

again, the getting, moving the, monetizing the natural gas in Alaska is very, very different proposition from that in the lower 48. As 

you said, first of all, the costs are enormous to move it to an export 

facility. So we are looking at this in a separate way. 

Two points. Well, we have already approved the Free Trade 

Agreement part. We are actively looking at the non-FTA part for 

a conditional approval. It is different from our lower 48 approach, 

but the conditions and the special factors merit that and we are following through on that. 

The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that. 

Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Mr. Secretary, I have so many questions. I might have to submit 

some for the record. 

I want to start with this crude-by-rail and agriculture issue that 

was outlined in the report, the fact that it is displacing product in 

the marketplace right now. We are actually discussing this in the 

Commerce Committee as well. Since this Quadrennial Energy Review is such a comprehensive agency approach, what are the next 

steps in trying to deal with that? 

What specifically are you doing at the Department of Energy on 

the volatility issue in giving us some analysis about that? And 

what would the timeline be for that? 

Secretary MONIZ. Okay, thank you for the question. 

First of all, with regard to the commodity issue, in terms of, 

frankly there’s been very, very sparse data available. And the EIA 

has already now launched a program collaborating with the Department of Transportation to get data on the movement of energy 

commodities, oil, ethanol, etcetera, but we would like to also and 

we recommend a collaboration with other departments including 

USDA and others to have a more unified commodity database. 

By the way, and I should have said coal as well. So particularly 

in the energy sector, again, oil, ethanol, coal movements. But as 

you said there’s a competition often right now for moving multiple 

commodities, and we would like to get a multiagency approach to 

that. 

With regard to the oil-by-rail, specifically, we are collaborating 

with DOT. We have already put out from Sandia what was really 

a literature survey, the most comprehensive literature survey so 

far in terms of properties of different oils, most especially the tight 

oil. That is the focus of a lot of concern. 

That first report, a literature survey only, and by the way, only 

publically available literature. But it had some interesting findings 


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including the need for much more systematic, systematized, collection of characterization data of crudes. It did suggest that the data 

that were reviewed did not imply that any one property of the oil 

would, you know, determine what would happen in terms of combustibility in an accident. But it recommended a major research 

project which Secretary Fox and I have agreed to co-fund which is 

now being launched. Again, Sandia will take. It’s probably going to 

take, and I know there is some impatience, but it will probably 

take two years to exercise, to get through the full research program 

that will include really to research into the characterization. How 

one samples, where one samples with a focus on what the implications will be for testing and then understanding how crude oil 

properties affect things like combustibility in accidents. 

Senator CANTWELL. But your scientific findings that you published basically suggest it is not something to ignore. You are undertaking more research on it because you are concerned. 

Secretary MONIZ. Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Senator CANTWELL. Can I ask you about transformers? 

Secretary MONIZ. And if I may just say one last thing? Sandia 

has a lot of experience, by the way, in looking at combustibility of 

combustion. That’s why we’re using their facilities. 

Senator CANTWELL. I saw in the report a lot of focus on working 

with states on upgrading the grid because of geographic diversity. 

But transformers are obviously a key component here. What are 

your thoughts on how we get more investment in transformers? 

Secretary MONIZ. So we recommend completing, basically, the 

analysis there and then depending upon the results, talking about 

a public/private partnership to move towards a reserve. 

When we released the Quadrennial Energy Review last week 

with the Vice President in Philadelphia we visited PECO, a major 

utility, which is actually on the technology forefront in many cases. 

And they’re, so they, for example, a large utility light that does 

have some of its own reserve capacity with transformers. But we 

need to get a systematized view of that across the country, different kinds of utility structures, obviously different places. 

RPMA, WAPA, has done a study, for example, specifically on how 

they might support a transformer reserve. We have to pull all of 

this together over the next months and then come back to the Congress with what might be a step, the Congress and the private sector, in terms of what might be the most effective path forward. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Gardner. 

Senator GARDNER. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks for 

hosting this hearing today. 

Welcome back to the Committee, Secretary Moniz. 

Briefly, a couple of quick questions, because I have to head to the 

Floor shortly. 

In the Quadrennial Energy Review you laid out four clear requirements for the report. One of the requirements was to review 

the adequacy with respect to energy policy of existing executive 

and legislative actions and recommend additional executive and 

legislative actions, as appropriate. 


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I believe the Chair had cited one of those areas where we could 

have more energy policy driving action is the issue of LNG exports. 

Did the QER take into account or look at or will a result of it be 

discussions of crude oil exports or perhaps administrative action, 

policy considerations of crude oil exports? 

Secretary MONIZ. The QER was really specifically focused on the 

infrastructure as opposed to that kind of a policy issue, so it does 

not really go into that in detail. 

Senator GARDNER. Okay, thank you. 

And when it comes to modernizing the electric grid one of the examples of how it has taken too long for permitting in some areas 

to actually pursue modernizing and extending the grid. In Susquehanna, a Susquehanna substation in Pennsylvania to the Rosen 

substation in New Jersey, there was a need for a 145 mile transmission line. It will be in service this spring, but it took a total of 

eight years for that service line to actually come into service. 

We have to have these adequate safeguards in place when it 

comes to make sure we are protecting the environment, moving forward in the right technologies, but what do you think Congress 

could do to make sure that these barriers are reduced so that we 

can move forward with transmission implementation in a more 

timely fashion? 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, first of all I think we are making some 

progress. And the rapid response transmission team, for example, 

has, maybe not with the speed, always the desire but it has managed to get three projects to the permit stage including the one 

that you mentioned. And there are three others now in the permitting stage. 

And so, for example, on the Trans West Express Project we expect the final EIS to be out very, very, very, very soon and that 

project going into operation probably in 2017. 

So I think we do have a set of authorities and a set of administration institutions to try to streamline. But it is also clear that 

there are obstacles often put up, and I know there are discussions 

in the Congress. 

In fact, I think Senator Heinrich is looking at things like some 

backstop authorities, and we are happy to work again on the whole 

issue of expediting these projects. 

Senator GARDNER. Thank you, and I look forward to working 

with you. I had some more questions on micro labs, but I will leave 

that to Senator Heinrich to continue that conversation. 

Thank you, Mr. Secretary. 

Secretary MONIZ. Okay, thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Manchin. 

Senator MANCHIN. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

And thank you, Mr. Secretary, for first of all, your service to our 

great country. I appreciate very much what you do. 

Secretary MONIZ. Thank you. 

Senator MANCHIN. And also for being here today. 

Speaking of the QER, I know when they went through this whole 

QER review. They were talking about, basically, they did not maul 

the potential for significant near term changes due to the clean 

power plant. It did perform stress tests using the accelerated nuclear retirement scenario from EIA’s Annual Energy Outlook 2014. 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARING
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Since we, in West Virginia, do not have any nuclear generation 

this analysis is less relevant for its needs and the potential for infrastructure requirements for accelerated coal plant and retirements that may result from this CPP. Will the DOE be willing and 

able to re-perform its stress test modeling for TS and D, transmission, storage and distribution, particularly electrical transmission and natural gas pipelines using the results of the EIA CPP 

analysis? 

My main concern, sir, is basically reliability of the system right 

now. We are taking a lot of coal-fired plants off-line, and they are 

not coming back online so we are going to have a lot of capacity. 

If the lines are not energized or if we do not have the reliability, 

we could be in serious problems. That is what we are concerned 

about. I do not know if you all were looking at that or willing to 

re-look at that. 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, first of all, there were a set of analyses 

relevant to that question but maybe not the precise scenario that 

you’d like to look at, and I’d be happy to have our staffs get together and define a scenario that might answer your specific questions and needs. But I will say, again, that we have had a number 

of analyses of relevance. 

For example, one of the issues related to your question is the 

question of a natural gas transmission line capacity. That was 

looked at, and the conclusion was that, first of all, there has been 

a substantial build out of that over the last decade. 

There’s quite a bit of reserve capacity there, and so our conclusion there was that with regard to the natural gas transmission capacity, we’re not looking at a need for, you know, a major, kind of, 

national, big build out from what we have. There will be regional 

needs targeted around specific supply centers. 

Senator MANCHIN. Let me ask this one question, if I may. A lot 

of these power plants that we have, coal-fired plants, are not in 

areas where there is oil or enhanced oil recovery possibilities. Are 

you all looking at transporting or pipelines transporting CO2 into 

those areas to get the enhanced recovery? 

More—— 

Secretary MONIZ. Yes, so the CO2 pipelines are specifically, we 

have recommendations in the QER. I might add, the Administration has—— 

Senator MANCHIN. Coming from the Middle High Valley, I mean, 

basically where all of ours, you know, West Virginia and Kentucky, 

Pennsylvania, all the areas where the coal is produced. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah, in general, I mean we need to be able to 

collect the CO2 for EOR and for deep aquifer sequestration. 

I would note that the Administration has put forward roughly a 

$5 billion incentive proposal around carbon capture and sequestration, and one of the interesting features of it is it’s an analysis I’d 

be happy to share with you and with the Committee. 

That if one looks at, as a base case, an ultra super critical new 

coal plant with an appropriate amount of carbon capture, the incentive structure in the Administration proposal would essentially 

equalize the cost of going into deep aquifer sequestration verses enhanced oil recovery. And that could be very relevant for parts of 

the country where you don’t have the EOR easily available. 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARING
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Senator MANCHIN. I will say officially I had asked if you would 

come, and you were so gracious to say that we can work out that 

scheduling to come to West Virginia and explain to all of our utilities and our providers, as far as our miners, of what the future 

may look for them and how we best apply their skills to the needs 

of the nation’s energy demand. 

Secretary MONIZ. I would be delighted to do that, Senator 

Manchin. 

Senator MANCHIN. A lot of people think that coal is going to be 

wiped out completely, but I do not believe in any near future that 

I have seen, the next three or four decades, this country is still 

going to depend an awful lot on coal production as far as an energy 

producer. 

Secretary MONIZ. The Administration’s projections continue to 

have coal with a somewhat lower, but with a substantial share of 

electricity for quite some time. 

And in fact, another document that we’re putting together a 

memo, I’d be happy to share, is one that talks about the whole variety of programs we have on coal and that includes the tax incentives I just mentioned. It includes the $8 billion solicitation that we 

now have on the loan program for fossil projects with lowered emissions. 

Senator MANCHIN. Which had come on tap—— 

Secretary MONIZ. Clearly R and D. 

We have also, out of the Department of Labor, worker community transition programs. 

So we have a whole variety of programs, and we probably need 

to pull those together in a coherent way. I’d be happy to share that 

with the Committee. 

Senator MANCHIN. I would love to have that. 

We look forward to your visit to West Virginia to explain to the 

good people of my state. 

Secretary MONIZ. Great. What’s a good time? [Laughter.] 

Senator MANCHIN. As soon as you can get there. 

Secretary MONIZ. Alright. [Laughter.] 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Manchin. 

Senator Barrasso. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

As we had a chance to visit earlier, Mr. Secretary, it was a nice 

article in today’s USA Today, ‘‘Energy’s Progress Has Room to 

Grow.’’ 

For those members of the Committee who might have missed 

this, in POLITICO this morning, ‘‘Ernest Moniz, Rock Star.’’ So—— 

Senator RISCH. We have always known that. 

Secretary MONIZ. I had not seen that. I wish I still hadn’t. 

Senator BARRASSO. I ask unanimous consent to make this part 

of the record. 

[The information referred to follows:] 


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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 64 here 95272A.026
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The CHAIRMAN. Only the picture will be part of the record. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

I do have a couple of questions because the Quadrennial Energy 

Report states that it is essential to promote more timely permitting 

decisions and explains that there is a gap between typical permitting times for energy generation and production sources and a 

much longer time for midstream energy infrastructure. 

The report goes on to say that legal requirements for the permitting and review of major infrastructure projects have created complex processes that in some cases have taken years or longer to 

complete. 

So I am glad that the Administration is acknowledging that the 

Federal permitting process is broken, but I do have concerns about 

some of the recommendations to fix it. The Administration recommends more permitting fees, more coordination among Federal 

agencies, more public engagement. 

The Administration does not make mention of establishing deadlines for permit decisions, it does not mention repealing duplicative 

permitting regulations, and it does not mention limiting lawsuits 

which slow the permitting process. 

So, with all due respect do we really believe that more money 

and coordination and engagement is all that is necessary to resolve 

the delays in the Federal permitting process? 

Secretary MONIZ. No, I certainly do not. 

And going, in fact, by the way to your opening statement, Senator Barrasso, opening words, I must say that over these last years 

we are, kind of, seeing a shift where often the infrastructure time 

has now become the long pole in the tent for shifting the energy 

system which is kind of a reversal a little bit of where it used to 

be. 

So I think we need to address these things, and we are trying 

to do that within our existing authorities. But what I want to point 

out is that things like litigation; we cannot stop litigation. It is not 

a question of just Federal authorities. 

The states play an enormous role. And of course, the more that 

we get into the issues of, kind of, semi continental scale, let’s say, 

transmission lines that cross multiple states without all of the 

states being beneficiaries, the obvious problems emerge. And that’s 

what we are seeing in terms of multiple delays. 

Clearly the issue of moving on corridors, for example, has been 

set back often by the courts in respect to states’ options. So again 

we would love to work with you and other members on that. But 

we are trying to expedite within the TIP Program for western within 12–22 authorities. Well, we do expect some progress this year. 

But it’s slow in coming. 

Senator BARRASSO. Another thing the Quadrennial Energy Review calls for is integrated North American energy markets. It explains that energy system integration is in the long term interest 

of the United States, Canada and Mexico and states the integration 

of these markets creates economy of scale to attract private investment, lower capital costs, reduces energy costs for consumers. 

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curity for the region. So I am pleased the Administration recognizes the benefits of increasing trade in energy resources. 

Again, the Administration seems to really not have the ambition 

or the courage to achieve the stated goals. Specifically the Administration fails to recommend a policy which would allow crude oil exports to Mexico. This is especially disappointing given that a bipartisan group of lawmakers in both the House and the Senate have 

called on President Obama to do just that. So if the Administration 

is serious about integrating North American energy markets 

shouldn’t we allow crude oil exports to Mexico? 

Secretary MONIZ. First of all, we share, apparently, the focus on 

the importance of North American energy and the Mexican energy 

reforms. I want to emphasize, not only in the hydrocarbon sector, 

but in the electricity sector, I think, are really important and open 

up much more chance for us to be integrated on infrastructure on 

energy trade. And energy trade, even two years ago, was already 

north of $200 billion among the three countries. 

Now clearly in the QER we did not address any specific project. 

And the question of oil exports is, as you well know, in the Department of Commerce hands. But I think that in light of the energy 

reform, in particular, revisiting those questions is quite appropriate. As you know, the Mexicans have also proposed for our consideration a swap concept of light and heavy oil. So I think these 

are all areas of active consideration. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you. 

Just finally, and I will also have to submit written questions. 

Mr. Secretary, last week I wrote to you about a former Deputy 

Secretary of Energy, Daniel Poneman. I expressed my concern 

about his appointment to the Board of Directors of a Traxys group 

of commodities trader and just have concerns about that and hope 

to get a quick, timely response from you regarding that letter. 

So, thank you, Madam Chair. 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, I can say your and the concern of other 

members that have been brought to our attention has certainly led 

us to, you know, make sure all people in the Department are 

aware, as is Mr. Poneman, of the rules in terms of interaction. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you. 

Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Barrasso. 

As we are discussing prompt replies, I am informed by my staff 

that some of the QFRs that we had submitted at the budget hearing several months ago have not yet been responded to by DOE. 

If you can just rattle the cage there we would appreciate it. 

Secretary MONIZ. I did that last week. [Laughter.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Let us go to Senator Franken. 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, we have an interagency process to go 

through, but anyway, I apologize for that and I want to be prompt 

with that. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Thank you, Secretary Moniz. In response to Senator Cantwell 

you touched on properties and characteristics of tight oil, specifically, and specifically the characteristic of combustibility. We have 


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seen these crude-by-rail accidents that have led to some pretty 

spectacular explosions and in some cases tragedy, 47 people killed 

in Quebec during an accident. So let me ask about a very specific 

property which is vapor pressure, caused, as I understand, by liquid natural gases. 

Secretary MONIZ. NGLs. 

Senator FRANKEN. That are particularly explosive. As you may 

know, on April 1st or since then North Dakota has been requiring 

vapor pressure Bakken crude to be limited to 13.7 pounds per 

square inch (psi) before it is loaded into the rail cars. But the big 

explosion in West Virginia, the vapor pressure of that oil was at 

13.9 psi. 

My question is whether the Department of Energy is working 

with the Department of Transportation and others to assess the 

safety benefits of lowering crude oil vapor pressure before it is 

loaded on the trains? 

Secretary MONIZ. Yes, so that is one of the specific focus areas 

of the work that I alluded to earlier that our Sandia lab has carried 

out and will carry out, but again the early indications are that no 

one property seems to be directly correlated to the combustibility 

issues. But that will be researched much more in the next year, 

and then there will be specific combustion tests done in accident 

scenarios to test this out. 

The second issue is that, frankly, the literature survey indicated 

that the lack of systematic characterization also didn’t always 

make it clear what actually was being loaded. 

Senator FRANKEN. Okay. Well—— 

Secretary MONIZ. So we have to work on both of those. 

Senator FRANKEN. There is obviously tremendous concern. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. 

Senator FRANKEN. In the communities. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. 

Senator FRANKEN. And the first responders along. 

Secretary MONIZ. And Secretary Fox, again, is equally eager to 

resolve this. And again, we will be cost sharing this work. 

Senator FRANKEN. Yes, thank you. 

I would like to ask you about the nuclear negotiations between 

the P5 plus one and Iran, something that you might know something about. The negotiated framework provides the basis for final 

agreement, and you have talked about how the framework blocks 

Iran’s overt paths to a bomb, both the uranium root and the plutonium root. But the blocking the covert path is in question and more 

challenging. 

While the framework argument spells out an extensive and intrusive inspection regime over the entire supply chain for Iran’s 

nuclear program there still will be concerns that Iran would cheat 

and break out toward a new bomb or toward a bomb, but given all 

the various restrictions and inspections that are in place throughout the supply chain Iran would have to cheat in more than one 

way and not get caught. 

So my question is can you talk about all the ways that Iran 

would have to cheat in order to get around the terms of the agreement and set up a secret uranium enrichment program? 

Secretary MONIZ. Sure. That is a big question. 


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Senator FRANKEN. And can you answer it in the five seconds remaining in my—— 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. [Laughter.] 

But I think you have already put your finger on it in a sense that 

the transparency and verification elements that will be put in place 

in an agreement, first of all are unmatched to those in any other 

situation in terms of their comprehensiveness and intrusiveness. 

But specifically because of the scope of the activities they would 

have to manage/succeed at an entire supply chain from uranium 

source all the way through all the processing of uranium to the 

manufacturer of centrifuges outside of the IAEA purview. They 

would have to be able to avoid various kinds of sampling and surveillance activities. It would be quite an achievement. 

And so I feel that these verification measures are extremely 

strong. And as we have said, special measures like the uranium 

supply chain surveillance will be in place for 25 years. So it’s, it 

will be quite a long period for observing whether or not Iran, in 

fact, wants and has only a peaceful program. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you for your answer, and thank you, 

Madam Chair. Obviously as we go forward to June 30th and right 

beyond that all this will be front and center. 

Thank you. 

Secretary MONIZ. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Franken. 

Senator Daines. 

Senator DAINES. Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to go down 

the path that Senator Manchin was on earlier regarding coal. 

According to the Energy Information Administration the U.S. 

produces about a billion tons of coal per year, and looking at the 

global numbers, it is about eight billion tons annually. So we represent about 12 percent of the world’s coal production. Said another 

way, 88 percent of the coal production in the world occurs outside 

of the United States. 

It looks like projections for the next ten to twenty years, coal production globally will only increase, plus or minus. As you know coal 

is an important fuel for electricity generation in Montana. In fact, 

more than 50 percent of our electricity in Montana comes from 

coal. I believe the national number is around 40 percent. 

It also provides good paying jobs for Montanans including our 

tribal members. We had a field hearing on the Crow Reservation 

regarding coal production a couple weeks ago. It provides $120 million in tax revenues for our state which supports our schools, our 

infrastructure. 

It also powers Midwest utilities. Gary Peters, the other new 

freshman Senator, one of the 13 new freshman Senators, from 

Michigan mentions the fact that it is coal coming from Montana, 

in fact, to power Detroit Edison and powers our automobile manufacturing sector. 

So we are the Saudi Arabia of coal, globally speaking. We have 

more coal reserves than any other nation. In fact, Montana has the 

greatest number of coal reserves of any state in the United States. 

I am just concerned in looking at the review and trying to make 

sure we achieve the right balance here of the all of the above energy portfolio. Clearly a state like Montana, we have bright skies, 


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we have solar potential, we have tremendous water resources and 

hydro power, we have great wind potential, but we also have oil 

and natural gas and importantly, coal. 

There are two export terminals important to my state that are 

currently under the review by the U.S. Army Corps, the Gateway 

Pacific Terminal and the Millennium Bulk Terminal. I was recently 

out on one of those terminals with a member of the Boilermaker 

Union there in Montana, a tribal member, looking at the importance of looking at coal exports and lastly looking at the broader 

environmental picture. Montana coal or U.S. coal, we actually have 

cleaner coal than many other countries around the world. 

I welcome the mention in the report through a view of our LNG 

exports, as has been discussed earlier, in the transmission corridors, but where do you see the priority, looking at coal exports, 

given that the global coal production is going to increase over the 

next decade plus I just do not see much emphasis or thought relating to coal exports and where do you see that in our broader strategies? 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, Senator, coal exports are not frankly 

something in the Department of Energy’s purview. Most, in fact, I 

believe a lot of the, well the Army Corps often has a role. But I 

think a lot of it also is state, state permitting and state EISs, 

etcetera. 

I do want to note that the, you mentioned the amount of coal. 

And China, of course, uses about roughly half of the world’s coal 

use. We expect that they will be peaking their coal use relatively 

soon. But still, a lot of coal being used and we, of course, believe 

that carbon capture and sequestration and often with EOR is critical. 

I do want to note and that the Department of Energy will be 

hosting the International Carbon Sequestration Leadership Forum, 

excuse me, in Montana, I think in August, I believe it is. And we’ll 

be sure to get you that information for that meeting. 

Senator DAINES. Yes, thank you. 

I know the review mentions the Administration’s Federal infrastructure project permitting dashboard, and the review recommends expanding an online project tracking system. I guess we 

look at the broader energy picture, and given that coal is still the 

number one source of electricity in America, it is number one and 

51 percent, certainly, in Montana. 

I would like to ask you to consider perhaps adding tracking coal 

export projects as we look at the broader national energy infrastructure as a part of that equation. I think we all agree we want 

to continue to work to improve the outcomes here in terms of coal 

and coal-fired electricity, but the reality is it is our number one 

source of electricity and it needs to be an important part of the 

portfolio. 

Secretary MONIZ. We can look at that. I think all exports, in fact, 

are now roughly 100 million tons, I believe. It is quite a large number. 

Senator DAINES. Yes, and we look at South Korea, Taiwan, 

Japan. They are relying on other countries like Indonesia and Australia. 


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Again, back to this point, 88 percent of the coal production occurs 

outside of the U.S. We have a chance to continue to grow jobs, tax 

revenues for schools or infrastructure by expanding our coal exports, and I think it is a way to keep electrical prices lower as well 

as create jobs. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. 

Senator DAINES. Tax revenues, for our infrastructure. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. 

I actually have, just now, was handed some of the words that we 

have on that. Actually the East Coast reports are, alone, are shipping about 70 million tons. And the companies, it says here, the 

companies that own and manage export terminals continue with 

long range plans for expansion focused on the potential for continued demand in Europe, Asia and South America. 

Senator DAINES. Yes, and I am—— 

Secretary MONIZ. So these are data that we will—— 

Senator DAINES. Sure. I am glad to see the East Coast. We will 

just turn your attention perhaps to the West. 

Secretary MONIZ. I understand. 

Senator DAINES. Where the coal is. Senator Barrasso here from 

Wyoming. 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. 

Senator DAINES. We have tremendous opportunities right now 

between Wyoming and Montana here looking at West Coast opportunities, and getting back to where is the expansion occurring? 

Over in Asia. 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. 

Senator DAINES. So the West Coast is very, very important. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah, understood, and I recognize the low sulfur content. 

Senator DAINES. Great, thank you. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Heinrich. 

Senator HEINRICH. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Mr. Secretary, one of the areas I am pretty excited about right 

now, just because we are seeing such rapid change, is the area of 

power storage where capability is increasing at a pretty good clip. 

Costs are coming down quite quickly as well. 

I am wondering if you could take a few minutes to just talk a 

little bit about how you see, what you see, as DOE’s role in accelerating this technology sector that could really change the way we 

think about energy, change our generation needs, really facilitate 

time shifting and move us forward to a very, very different kind 

of grid than, sort of, what we have experienced in the past? 

Secretary MONIZ. Thank you, Senator. 

Yeah, storage certainly could be a game changer. And as you say, 

costs are coming down across the board. Utility scale storage, distributed storage which is actually very interesting. 

Senator HEINRICH. Surely. 

Secretary MONIZ. And then, of course, transportation storage system batteries which might also be grid connected in the future. So 

we are working on all of those. 

ARPA–E has, for example, had strong support in this area. We 

have a hub that we have established at Argonne National LaboraVerDate Sep 11 2014 02:48 Feb 02, 2016 Jkt 095272 PO 00000 Frm 00049 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A272P2.XXX A272P2

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tory, CESAR, looking at storage across the board with novel chemistries, et cetera, to reduce costs. And we are including storage in 

a lot of our system modeling activities to see exactly how storage 

can help us achieve our goals in ways that might otherwise be 

much more complicated. 

If I may put in a plug, we did a report at Senator Wyden’s request about a year and a half ago on large scale storage and integration into the grid that’s very important. 

I’d like to add, however, that the issue of consumer level storage 

combined with distributed generation is getting to look extremely 

interesting and can be yet another challenge to the utility business 

model that we have to look at. 

Senator HEINRICH. I think that is quite clear. I am, sort of, encouraging utilities to get ahead of this and make some decisions 

about incorporating these things into their business model because 

if they just look at saying no or making it more difficult for people 

to put distributed generation on their homes, distributed solar or 

distributed storage at their homes, you know, that you could see 

a very unstable business model moving forward. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yes. 

Senator HEINRICH. And it, kind of, brings up the issue of rate 

making. I want to ask you a related question because both the cost 

of photovoltaic panels coming down very quickly plus the energy 

storage changes that we are seeing in the distributed market are 

fueling a lot of change. I think one of the things we need to see 

is the ability of states to make very accurate decisions about the 

cost and benefits, both sides of the ledger, of those things being 

brought on to the grid. 

I wanted to ask you if you think that state regulators have the 

tools they need to adequately quantify both sides of the ledger, 

both the benefits and the costs of distributed generation and distributed storage so that they can make accurate rate cases and is 

this an area where possibly the labs might be able to help states 

accurately assess those costs and benefits? 

Secretary MONIZ. I think it’s a long way to go. In fact one of the 

major recommendations, major, again, one of the many recommendations I should say, I guess, in the QER was that we really 

need to work on getting better evaluation algorithms for all kinds 

of services that are being provided in the grid, including of course, 

in the distribution system which you were referring to, in effect. 

So you alluded to the issue of distributed solar, for example, and 

we know what’s going on with the arguments involving net metering and value to utilities. I think on the one hand there is a real 

issue of how do you value the connectivity that is still there, but 

on the other hand how do you value the benefits to the overall grid 

system. 

Senator HEINRICH. Right. 

Secretary MONIZ. From either distributed generation or efficiency 

programs. 

In fact, as you know, another court issue is this question of how 

do demand side programs propagate back to RTO and ISO considerations and to FERC regulations. 


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So this is a critical problem, and we certainly identified it. We 

didn’t exactly put the solutions forward, but I think that is something to work on. 

I think your idea, maybe, of getting a lab focused on this would 

be good, particularly in that we’ve also proposed one of the major, 

‘‘down payments’’ that we have in our FY’16 budget proposal to 

Congress is the grid modernization. The grid modernization program we’ve put forward is not simply about, you know, synco 

phasors on the high voltage lines. 

Senator HEINRICH. Right. 

Secretary MONIZ. It also includes the state grant programs. It includes the whole set of issues. So we could take that on. 

Senator HEINRICH. Well, I look forward to working with you on 

that, and I think now is the time because we are seeing a lot of 

policy decisions made with a very meager amount of data. The 

more data we have, the more direction we have and the better 

those policy decisions will be. 

Secretary MONIZ. If you have some specific ideas and directions, 

we’d love to get together and talk about them. 

Senator HEINRICH. Fantastic, thank you. 

Secretary MONIZ. Critical issue. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Heinrich. 

Senator Cassidy. 

Senator CASSIDY. Yes, Mr. Secretary, it is nice to see you. 

I was pleased to see an emphasis upon LNG export terminals. As 

you know Calcasieu Parish and Cameron Parish in Louisiana are 

kind of ground zero for that sort of thing. The original QER, I am 

told, had increased funding to dredge the Calcasieu ship channel 

which will be so important if two tankers are going to go side by 

side, that sort of thing. But then I am told that OMB kind of pulled 

funding out. 

Now, of course, I am representing a state with lots of harbors. 

I am looking at the Harbor Maintenance Trust Fund which has 

more than enough money to pay for all this, and it is not happening. 

So any thoughts as to why, when the money is sitting there, we 

are not emphasizing using the dollars that are raised in order to 

increase the potential of the infrastructure that you stress so wisely in your QER? 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, I think you apparently have seen the cartoon that we had in there in terms of the Calcasieu channel. Certainly the issue of keeping up with our inland waterways, problems 

in this case, the dredging issues in that channel are obviously very 

important. 

All I can say is that I think the Administration is committed to 

trying to accelerate those. There was, I forgot if it was $60 million, 

I believe added for dredging specifically in the Calcasieu channel 

which I understand would open up the channel appropriately. I can 

go back and look at that again, if you’d like. 

That’s my understanding at least. 

Senator CASSIDY. Thank you. 

Secondly, on the MOX facility in Savannah or Charleston, South 

Carolina, I believe. 

Secretary MONIZ. Savannah River. 


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Senator CASSIDY. Savannah River. 

Secretary MONIZ. National laboratory or site, Savannah River 

site. 

Senator CASSIDY. There is a recent top line press release as regards something the Aerospace Corporation gave which frankly 

was unfavorable to the project. But it was also out of line with previous reports from say, the Army Corps of Engineer being far more 

expensive and also suggests that another 30 years to completion as 

opposed to the eight years it has taken to get so far which is, depending on who you speak to, 50 to 65 percent. I think Aerospace 

has 50. The contractors say 65. 

Any thoughts on that one? What experience does the Aerospace 

Corporation have on such projects? That would be my first question. Two, can we have some transparency as to their assumptions, 

because in such a complicated project assumptions mean everything. 

Secretary MONIZ. We’re happy by the way, first of all on the last 

part to have completely transparent briefings. That’s what we 

would like to do on that. 

The Aerospace Corporation has been, you know, a contractor 

quite frequently to the NNSA part of DOE in terms of some nuclear projects. They do a lot of complex projects. 

Senator CASSIDY. Including those for a plant such as this which 

would be. I can see nuclear projects for a defense vehicle, for example, a defense project, but that would be quite different from this. 

Secretary MONIZ. These are, look, well first of all, of course, it’s 

a unique project. 

Senator CASSIDY. Yes. 

Secretary MONIZ. So no one has looked specifically at this project 

other than DOE and the contractors. 

I want to say, Senator, that when I came into this job I made 

it very clear that I wanted to be very transparent but also very 

straight forward and data driven. And sometimes the results aren’t 

so pretty. But when we looked internally at DOE, at this last year, 

we came out with a full life cycle cost north of $30 billion. That, 

in fact, led to the idea of then going out for an independent contractor to look at that. 

The increase—— 

Senator CASSIDY. $30 billion in addition to that which was spent or $30 billion including that which was spent? 

Secretary MONIZ. It was north of $30 billion. In that case it was 

including the four to five that had already been spent, but, you 

know, that scale. 

Two points about the Aerospace. One is that they put in a lot of 

risk management contingency, number one. Number two is that the 

charge included a cap on the appropriations spending, annual appropriations spending. 

Senator CASSIDY. You see, that is what—— 

Secretary MONIZ. That we viewed as being reasonable. 

Now the trouble was then that cap and this has been our problem right from the beginning, that cap then spreads the project out 

so long that it builds up. 

Informally we have looked at the implications of allowing a higher appropriations, annual appropriations cap. And that does lower 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARING
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the life cycle cost significantly, but it’s still in the high $30 billions, 

the high $30 billion. 

So, I think, and I want to emphasize that’s not just the MOX 

plant. Probably we’re talking apples and oranges. The MOX plant 

itself is only one part of a very, of a much bigger project including 

how you get the pits down into plutonium oxide and of course the 

operating costs over decades. So I want to clarify. 

Senator CASSIDY. Got that. 

Secretary MONIZ. That’s what the, let’s call it the high $30s or $40 billion is. 

Senator CASSIDY. I am over time. I look forward to that briefing. 

Thank you. 

Secretary MONIZ. Okay. 

Senator CASSIDY. And if I get a second shot I will take a second 

shot on something else. 

Secretary MONIZ. Okay. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator King. 

Senator KING. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

First, Mr. Secretary, I want to thank you for your role in the 

Iran negotiations. 

There is an extraordinary article, I think it was in the New York 

Times recently about the role that the Department of Energy 

played in analyzing the various proposals, the labs. It strikes me 

as fortuitous in the extreme that at the moment we are under 

again to these particular negotiations we have a nuclear physicist 

in charge of the Department of Energy. 

I want to go to an appalling chart on page 226 of the report. I 

am sure you know what I am talking about. It is the differential 

in oil and gas, natural gas, prices between New England and the 

rest of the country. 2–7 is the number of the chart. 

This is an infrastructure problem, and I just think it is something. It is absolutely urgent for our region. 

We went into natural gas in a big way, as you know, starting in 

about the year 2000, and now 50 to 60 percent of our electricity 

comes from natural gas. A lot of people, like myself, switched to 

natural gas to heat our homes. And winter before last we had the 

highest natural gas prices in the world, and this shows us that almost double the U.S. rate. 

So, I just hope that the Department can be aggressive and forward leaning in helping the governors, the delegation, the utilities, 

to solve this problem. It is a pipeline problem. It is not a gas problem, as you know. I think it is going to take an all of the above 

kind of strategy in terms of permitting, and it is a really urgent 

problem for the region. I assume you agree with that? 

Secretary MONIZ. Yes. In fact the very first field hearings that 

we had for the QER were in New England, specifically driven by 

the gas pipeline issue. The representatives of all six governors were 

part of that meeting. And frankly the remarks that they made were 

such that the governors felt that they were, kind of, going to have 

this under control and would take care of it. 

In fact, I understand that next year in 2016 there will be a substantial expansion of capacity taking gas from the Marcellus at 

least kind of, into the Boston area through there. But getting that 

farther north—— 


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Senator KING. Right. 

Secretary MONIZ. Is a challenge there. I don’t know how this will 

turn out, and I’m happy to work with you, Senator King. The—— 

Senator KING. This is a problem of our system is that we are either Federal or state. We do not have regional entities. 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. 

Senator KING. I think this is a case where we are not asking for 

Federal intervention, but we are asking for a Federal quarterback, 

in a sense. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yes. 

Senator KING. I think you can help to convene and move this 

process. 

Secretary MONIZ. And we will—and we are happy to do that. 

Again, I think the issues for the southern part of New England 

look like they’re coming under control probably next year. I don’t 

know, but it would be a good discussion. 

Senator KING. Well—— 

Secretary MONIZ. There are discussions about getting Marcellus 

gas up to Canada. 

Senator KING. Right. 

Secretary MONIZ. And that might provide an opportunity for 

moving gas more than New England. 

Senator KING. That brings me to my next question. 

There is a discussion about reversing the Maritimes in the 

Northeast pipeline which runs through Eastern Maine from Southern New England, from Massachusetts to Nova Scotia. Reversing 

it and then exporting the natural gas from Canada which would 

mean it would be technically not under the national interest review. I would hope that you would consider, as that project moves 

forward, the discussions inserting a requirement that that gas be 

divertible during times of peak demand rather than going to Canada that there be some provision that during peak demand it could 

be retained in the region. We can discuss this further, but I hope 

you will think about it. 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, there certainly will be a national interest 

determination. 

Senator KING. Good, and I commend that issue to you. 

Quickly I want to associate myself with the comments of Senator 

Heinrich about distributed energy and storage. I recently rewatched, ‘‘The Graduate,’’ and the guy in that movie says, ‘‘Plastic.’’ 

Secretary MONIZ. Plastics. 

Senator KING. Famously plastics. I would say if it were today he 

would say, ‘‘storage, energy storage.’’ [Laughter.] 

That is going to be a huge issue, and I think one of the things 

you can do and I think one of the troublesome issues here and this 

is a national security issue, it seems to me. It is also a sort of a 

private rights, personal rights interest to have energy generated at 

your house. 

But the challenge is what is the right number for the grid charge 

for backup and capacity? It has to be sufficient so that other ratepayers are not bearing the cost, but it also cannot be so high as 

to unreasonably burden this nascent development which I think is 

very important. It is going to happen anyway. 


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So I think another area where you could be very helpful to us 

is to have your smart people thinking about what would be the formula for determining a reasonable backup charge or reasonable capacity, however you characterize it. Finally, to really help us start 

thinking about, I think, we have got to get to the point of real time, 

time of day, metering. There is great value to the grid if the solar 

is on at four in the afternoon. There is not so much value if it is 

ten in the morning. How to figure out those kinds of issues so that 

the compensation to the homeowner is fair and reasonable and also 

provides the proper incentives for that power being generated when 

we most need it? 

Secretary MONIZ. And again, that’s the whole issue of evaluation 

which we need to look at desperately. And it’s going to become 

more and more critical, including for what I would call, especially, 

maybe, semi rural areas that have a grid and distribution system 

and yet if, as people go perhaps off the grid, because storage becomes useful, obviously that then spreads the cost over a smaller 

population. And it can be a real issue. 

So I think we have a real challenge as we look through what is 

an opportunity of the new technology possibilities and yet the transition from our current model is going to have some real strains in 

the system. 

So—— 

Senator KING. Thank you. 

Secretary MONIZ. You know. 

Senator KING. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Again, thank you for 

your work on the Iran negotiations. 

Secretary MONIZ. Thank you. 

Senator KING. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator King. 

Mr. Secretary, I understand in response to questions from both 

Senator Gardner and Senator Barrasso where they probed a little 

bit on the issue of oil export you said for purposes of this QER you 

did not go into that, and I understand why. We are talking about 

infrastructure. 

But I also understand that this is one of those connects or nexus 

where if you have policy decisions that are made with infrastructure today as it is in place you are probably not going to be prepared for tomorrow. Recognizing that when we are talking about 

the issue of oil exports and what that might do for increased production, domestically, bringing on new sources of supply which will 

then require additional infrastructure, that there is a connection 

there. 

I understand why you would defer on a question like this, but 

I do think that as we are talking about energy infrastructure and 

policies for the country going forward, we need to be looking at 

some of the antiquated policies that we have in place whether it 

is oil exports or otherwise and really visioning where we go with 

this. So I am going to keep pushing you on that, as I think you will 

have other members of this Committee do as well. 

It goes back to a comment that I made in my opening statement 

about the TransAlaska pipeline. We have a fabulous piece of infrastructure, truly an engineering marvel. 800 miles of pipe bisecting 

the state has been doing a pretty good job for 40 some odd years, 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARING
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but if we do not have sufficient through put as we are getting to 

that point, you have that infrastructure that is no longer working 

at its capacity. 

At some point, we do not know exactly when, you lose that valuable piece of infrastructure, and then what do you do? Then you 

really have stranded supply. 

So while you may not have evaluated whether or not we need to 

do more when it comes to offshore or how we get moving within 

NPRA or the merits of going after our phenomenal reserves within 

the ANWR, it does speak, again, to this nexus between our production domestically and our infrastructure there. 

I wanted to ask a little bit more about North American energy 

integration because I think that this is key. When we are talking 

about energy security, in my mind, it is not just the United States, 

it is our partners to the North in Canada and to the South in Mexico. And it is that North American energy security and integration. 

You spoke a little bit in previous responses about what we are 

doing to collect and share data. I think that that is critically important. But our reality is that we are still looking at these permitting 

delays for cross border pipelines, obviously Keystone XL is something that is out there and the newest. It is not just Keystone XL, 

it is so much more that we have going between our borders to the 

north and to the south. 

Can you elaborate just a little bit more on how we really achieve, 

what I think you and I would agree, is critical not only to the 

United States but to our partners, Mexico and Canada as well? 

How do we get there? Because right now we cannot even get moving with a simple swap between Canada or excuse me, between the 

United States and Mexico for our heavy—for our light, for their 

heavy. 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. 

Well, I think the, first of all this may sound like a very, you 

know, vanilla answer but I think one of the issues is we need to 

start a much stronger dialogue with both countries than we have 

had. In fact, I was kind of shocked frankly when I—— 

The CHAIRMAN. When you say start, we have all assumed that 

we have been having these dialogues. 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, yes, so it’s not—maybe start was not 

quite the right word, but I was trying to give the impression that 

it’s been nowhere near as robust as it should be. 

The CHAIRMAN. I would agree. 

Secretary MONIZ. Frankly, I was shocked, as I was about to say, 

when I went to Ottawa last year. It was apparently the first time 

the Secretary of Energy had been to Canada in well over a decade 

which was, kind of, surprising. 

We have now agreed that among the three energy ministers of 

the three countries that we will have at least an annual trilateral 

energy meeting. For example, the data agreement we signed last 

December. We also met together in, actually in Houston this past 

week and had a panel together. 

So part of it is we do have to have that discussion identifying 

issues. I can assure you that then issues like the, with Mexico, the 

swap were raised. And I will, you know, be part of that discussion 

in the Administration to at least examine that question. 


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Again, I don’t make that decision, but I think it’s a very important decision. 

We have just set up a joint task force that I will chair, I do chair, 

on the American side with Mexico. And in fact, will be in Mexico 

in May meeting with both the Energy and Environment Ministers. 

So I think we are—and the QER has been part of that frankly. 

It’s really been picking up the pace of this dialogue. 

So I think we’re mapping out a whole bunch of questions now 

that we need to address. And I want to make some progress in the 

next year and a half on this. 

I might add, by the way, the Mexican delegation, a subject that 

we’ve talked about before in a different context, but they, for example, also raised a desire to work closely together on something we 

have not worked on together which is methane hydrates, another 

issue. 

So I think we’re getting an agenda mapped out, and now the 

issue is to really go forward. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I would certainly encourage the Administration to be aggressive with this. We talk about it, and to hear you 

say that we have not had a Secretary of Energy visit Canada in 

a decade is really stunning. 

Secretary MONIZ. It was, it was, yeah, it was crazy. 

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, we can do better than this. 

Thank you. 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Mr. Secretary, I had to step out for a moment, but I know that 

several members have been talking about the grid in general. Of 

this Quadrennial Energy Review the key recommendation for the 

immediate focus is about infrastructure and the grid is a big part 

of that. Is that right? 

Secretary MONIZ. Oh, yes, absolutely, one of our four, kind of, 

major core areas. 

Senator CANTWELL. Right. 

So part of my question is we have, in previous legislation, done 

a lot of focus for states to help us in discussing where to go on grid 

modernization and try to get various schematics in place and 

microgrid systems and figuring out how to get those microgrids to 

connect to the larger grid and obviously the issue of cyber security 

becoming a larger issue. That is mentioned in the report as well. 

Obviously DOE plays a major role in this. What are the schematics that you think we should be looking at on the grid? What 

kind of research and development should we be doing? I almost 

wanted to ask you before about why transformers are so important, 

maybe explain that a little bit? 

Clearly there are some key approaches that we could take as a 

Federal entity to push further on where the grid needs to go, and 

you have done a good job on the report of combining the elements 

of different types of energy sources. Obviously, I do not think it is 

called out so specifically in the report. 

But to me the biggest advent here is just the notion of distributed generation. The same kind of innovation that the internet 


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brought us is bringing us distributed generation opportunities for 

energy, which means then how will it become a platform? 

So how would you approach this next phase of working on grid 

modernization? 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, on the R and D side that you mentioned. 

I mean, you know, in broad strokes, I think the much more aggressive introduction and utilization of IT with the grid is absolutely 

critical. 

Just again, as an anecdote last week when we were up at PICO 

in Philadelphia to release the QER when we were in the control 

room and we saw where the data are coming in from these syncho 

phasor measurements which is a wonderful new technology. But 

the fact is it had not been integrated into an operational system 

yet. So we have a long way to go yet to fully realize the benefits 

of IT in the system. 

And that’s both for the transmission system, the high voltage 

system and it’s true for the distribution system. 

Then, secondly, of course, the more we introduce IT, the more we 

have to address the cyber vulnerabilities. That goes hand in hand. 

So that’s a second major area. 

A third major area that you—— 

Senator CANTWELL. But isn’t it more that with so many transactions and e-commerce and everything living online that if we do 

not harden the electricity grid or make it redundant in various 

ways? 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. 

Senator CANTWELL. That we are going to be susceptible. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah, it feeds back, yeah. So we need the cyber 

protection of the grid so that it in turn, is available to support all 

the other commerce, electronic commerce, that we have. 

A third area, you touched upon it, is actually, I would say, the 

integrating the ideas of distributed generation and microgrids. 

Again, as one example of a project that helped shape some of our 

thinking in terms of the resiliency recommendations. We cost 

shared with the State of New Jersey, a design of a so-called 

microgrid, except it’s not so micro, like 50 to even more megawatts 

of distributed generation in a microgrid to protect, to make resilient, a critical transportation corridor. 

We put in relatively small funds to do the design work, and then 

they were successful in getting, essentially, a post Sandy, DOT 

grant, hundreds of millions of dollars to implement it. So both the 

architecture, DG and microgrids is important, but also this idea of 

Federal, of our leveraging funds to then have big infrastructure 

projects done is a good model that we use here. 

So those are important. 

On transformers the issue is really that these large transformers, 

typically to step down from very high voltage to a lower voltage 

tend to be probably more than they need to be. They tend to be 

rather unique and very, if you have a problem, very hard to replace. They cost millions of dollars each. It may take six months 

to replace it. And you’ve got a big problem. 

And so, so that’s why we’re thinking of working with utilities to 

see if we can’t have a private/public partnership to have a more 

uniform way of having backups for key transformers. 


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Senator CANTWELL. Well, I think efficiency screams out in your 

report as a big savings for all of us. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yes. 

Senator CANTWELL. And I hope that we will take your recommendations and go one step further. What is it the grid investment will get us juxtaposed to ignoring it? 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. 

Senator CANTWELL. And having cyber threats or ignoring it and 

thinking about the climate impacts that we saw, devastating substations. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yes. 

Senator CANTWELL. And everything else. So we clearly are 

spending billions of dollars in aftermath repairs, and we can be 

smarter about that. 

Secretary MONIZ. There’s a nice graph in there also that shows 

that over the last decade of dramatically increasing, in terms of 

outages, is the impact of extreme weather. 

Senator CANTWELL. Yes. 

Secretary MONIZ. And it has just grown enormously. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Hoeven. 

Senator HOEVEN. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

I actually want to pick up on a question that you just posed. 

Mr. Secretary, thanks for coming to North Dakota’s part of the 

QER process. We appreciate it very much. 

The QER recognizes the growth and importance of energy and 

development in places like my state of North Dakota and elsewhere 

as well as the need to update and expand our energy infrastructure 

as part of building an energy plan for this country, but it also discusses the importance of partnering with our friends and allies, 

Canada and Mexico. 

How do you expect that we are going to build our relationship, 

a better relationship on energy, with Canada if we do not approve 

the Keystone XL pipeline? 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, again, the QER nor I are going to comment on a specific project, but we do note that first of all in terms 

of pipelines, we already have more than 75 lines across the border. 

And it—— 

Senator HOEVEN. Is that making the argument for Keystone or 

against it? 

Secretary MONIZ. It was a completely neutral statement of data. 

[Laughter.] 

I’m a very data driven person and those are some—I believe 74 

is the exact number, in fact. 

I’ll just add in terms of, you know, working with Canada that we 

have right now more than four gigawatts of applications for high 

voltage transmission lines to bring hydro down. One of those, 

Champlain-Hudson, in fact, just got its final permits. 

My point is we have a big energy relationship with Canada. We 

want to grow it more. That’s independent of any specific project. 

Senator HOEVEN. Along those lines, I am working on bipartisan 

legislation. It is the North American Energy Infrastructure Act, 


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and it is designed to do what you just said, help build energy infrastructure so that we can work with Canada and Mexico. 

North America has an incredible opportunity here, all forms of 

energy. So we are talking not just pipelines, but also transmission 

lines, rail and road, all in the right mix to move energy—— 

Secretary MONIZ. I might add. 

Senator HOEVEN. Efficiently and cost effectively and safely. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. I would just add to your list waterways 

as well. 

Senator HOEVEN. Waterways too. Is that something you would be 

willing to help work on? 

Secretary MONIZ. Absolutely, happy to chat as we always do. 

Senator HOEVEN. Thank you. 

Again, it is not just transmission and pipeline, but we have got 

railroads out there that are working to build more rail. We need 

capacity in all these areas. And not even just for energy. 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. 

Senator HOEVEN. That is one of the things the QER talks about 

are those constraints. 

So how can you help us advance this legislation? How can you 

help us knock down some of these regulatory barriers so that we 

can build this infrastructure? 

This is private investment. We want to do it right. We want to 

do it well, but we have got to get them through the regulatory constraints. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. I think, again, I’d be happy to work with 

you, Senator Hoeven. 

But partly also in the way, perhaps as maybe helping out as a 

gateway to other agencies as well because clearly responsibilities 

for the issues that you are addressing are spread across multiple 

agencies. The Department of Energy has relatively little, you know, 

we do the presidential determination for electricity lines but obviously not for other kinds of transport. 

Senator HOEVEN. It would be great if maybe you could be perhaps the link in an interagency effort so that we could streamline 

the process. Maybe that is a good role for DOE? 

Secretary MONIZ. That’s something we could certainly discuss, 

absolutely. 

Senator HOEVEN. I would like to—— 

Secretary MONIZ. In the same sense that we were the Executive 

Secretary for this QER. 

Senator HOEVEN. Right. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. 

Senator HOEVEN. I would like to switch to another item that I 

am thinking I did not get to watch all the testimony, but perhaps 

the Chairman brought up oil export. This is an important issue in 

many respects, not only in terms of our economic growth and building our energy industry here at home, but also in helping drive 

more supply, reduce the price at the pump. 

Give me your position on oil export and how we should approach 

lifting the oil export ban? 

Secretary MONIZ. My position is that that is a responsibility of 

the Department of Commerce, but I’ll make a few observations. 


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The—which I did last week in Houston and—conference. And 

this is not dispositive in any way about whether we should or 

should not or how we should lift oil exports. It’s a bigger discussion. 

But I do think in that discussion is very important to have in the 

context of, you know, of the ground truth today that we still import 

seven billion barrels of oil per day. That’s not, again, say yes or no, 

on the question that you posed. But we should remember that in 

contrast to LNG where we are and soon will be more than self-sufficient in natural gas, we remain large importers of crude and still 

significant importers of net petroleum and petroleum products. 

So that’s the reality. 

So the issue in the end becomes the one that you did point out. 

Would a lifting of exports result in a significant increase in production or not? 

I think that’s a question which is not often enough focused on in 

terms of analysis. And certainly it’s probably the case and times 

change, but today with what’s happening with oil prices, etcetera, 

and it might be a hard case to make that one would see a huge 

response in terms of production. But that’s the question to address. 

Senator HOEVEN. What I would ask, Mr. Secretary is that you 

work with us just as you worked with us on the LNG export issue 

and we appreciate that. I think it has been very helpful and productive working with your office. I think we have legislation now 

that we have a real opportunity to pass, and your effort has been 

significant and important in that effort. I would ask for that same 

help and willingness to work together on the oil export ban. 

Secretary MONIZ. Again, I’m happy to do that. Just again, with 

the proviso understood that those are responsibilities not in the Department of Energy. But nevertheless I’m happy to take part in a 

dialogue and maybe make, help make, some of the linkages to 

other parts of the Administration. 

Senator HOEVEN. Thank you. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Secretary Moniz. 

And know that last week we had very interesting discussion here 

with Mr. Sieminski talking about the impact of Iran sanctions and 

that effectively by not removing the oil export ban we keep in place 

or we impose domestic sanctions on U.S. oil but look forward to 

continuing that conversation. 

Secretary MONIZ. I might add that you probably discussed but 

that EIA has done a whole series of reports that will culminate in 

June, analyses of relevance to the oil export discussion. 

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We are looking forward to those as well. 

Let us go to Senator Franken. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

I would just put a word in for a caution on the level of export 

of LNG. Minnesota produces no LNG, and we like to keep the cost 

down so for generation of electricity, for manufacturing, for heating. So there are, I believe, the Energy Information Agency has 

said that it would lead to cost rises in the United States if we do 

export and especially if we export a significant amount. 

Mr. Secretary, I would like to talk about renewable energy production on Indian lands. Our tribes in Minnesota and elsewhere 


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have tremendous renewable energy resources. In Minnesota, biomass and wind and solar too, but if you have ever gone to Arizona 

you would know that there is tremendous solar there. With distributed energy as a goal and microgrids as a goal, I would like to see 

that energy team up with Indian energy to pilot programs there for 

microgrids and for distributed energy because it would create jobs 

in Indian country and it would also be a wonderful place for us to 

pilot program, you know, cutting edge technology and to see where 

that leads. 

So I would just recommend to you thinking about Indian when 

Senator King talked about storage as the word they use in ‘‘The 

Graduate’’ now for plastics. It would not be because the whole point 

of that line was to make fun of that guy. Storage is really, really 

cool. [Laughter.] 

And really cutting edge. So as a former satirist I can tell you— 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. 

Senator FRANKEN. Today, no. Storage would not be used instead 

of plastics, and I take tremendous issue with the Senator from 

Maine. [Laughter.] 

Secretary MONIZ. Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio, right? 

Senator FRANKEN. Very good. [Laughter.] 

Now that is a reference to the soundtrack from ‘‘The Graduate’’ 

and for those of us of a certain age. 

I also want to just ask a little bit about—so would you look into 

that? 

Secretary MONIZ. I would love to collaborate on that. 

Senator FRANKEN. Yes. 

Secretary MONIZ. And also by the Indian country and Alaskan 

native villages, etcetera. I am going to ask for some help in fact. 

We have a program on Indian energy, and I think it is very effective in terms of what it does with a very limited budget. 

Senator FRANKEN. Yes. 

Secretary MONIZ. In fact it’s authorized only with a cap on its 

budget. 

However, we do have a proposal in the budget that I would like 

to bring to your attention, actually you and the Chair, which is we 

requested, to be honest, I think it was not funded in the House 

mark, $11 million for a loan guarantee program for Indians and energy, Alaska, native villages. The idea there is that while it’s $11 

million of credit subsidy it probably could leverage like $100 million of actual projects which is way above the budget that we have 

for Indian energy. 

So I’d be happy to come and discuss that in more detail and work 

through what we could do there. 

Senator FRANKEN. Well—— 

Secretary MONIZ. And the idea would be like sub megawatt 

projects. 

Senator FRANKEN. As the Chair and I know that the funding levels very often for Indian and Native peoples is incredibly low. I 

really believe that combined heat and power is something that the 

Chairman and I agree, you know, are enthusiastic about. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah. 

Senator FRANKEN. So that is biomass very often and so those 

kind of distributed energy. 


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I also, since I am running out of time, just want to touch on 

methane and the importance of capturing it because the greenhouse effect of methane is so much greater than that of CO2. Secretary MONIZ. Right. 

Senator FRANKEN. That we need to really capture that. 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. 

And in our work, including in the QER, so we have two focus 

areas for DOE. There’s other focus areas in terms of the production 

side, but we look, particularly, at the T and D infrastructure and 

on the natural gas transmission—distribution side. We have just a 

tremendous amount of old, you know, cast iron pipe and bare steel. 

It’s both a safety and a climate challenge. 

We propose a program to, fundamentally, to support low income 

households as accelerated replacement programs are absorbed into 

rates. So that’s an example of what we want to do there for both 

safety and environmental reasons. 

And in addition we’re working on compressors which are the biggest loss point on the natural gas transmission system. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Franken. I look forward to 

working with you on some of these Office of Indian Energy issues. 

Senator Cassidy. 

Senator CASSIDY. Thank you. 

Mr. Secretary, I am about to ask a bunch of questions I do not 

know the answer to. 

Secretary MONIZ. We don’t either. [Laughter.] 

Senator CASSIDY. I hope you do, but if you say you do not, I accept that. 

What has been in the news lately is the Uranium One sale to 

Russia. It may not be Uranium One, but the Canadian company 

that gave contributions to the Clinton Foundation, they had uranium mining rights across the world including the Western United 

States and subsequently have sold to a Russian concern. 

There is a certain scandal involved. I am not here to discuss the 

scandal. What I am interested in is, and I think it is ARMZ that 

currently has these holdings, what percent of actively mined U.S. 

uranium resources are controlled by the Russian concern? Do you 

know that? 

Secretary MONIZ. I do not. I wasn’t aware of any, to be honest, 

but I don’t know the answer. But I can look into that. I don’t know 

the issue, I’m sorry. Yeah. 

Senator CASSIDY. Okay, then if you do not know the issue it may 

not work for any of these because the second question would be I 

understand, again, that the Russians now claim to control a significant portion of world uranium deposits. In which case, can they 

choose to increase price by limiting supply? Again, I ask this for 

no other reason that I think there is national security issues at 

stake. 

Secretary MONIZ. Again, I’ll have to look at this. And I’m happy 

to get back to you. 

However, it’s a little bit surprising in a sense that I believe the 

largest reserves are in Kazakhstan and the second largest, I believe, are Australia. 


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Senator CASSIDY. They own those too. 

Uranium One had holdings. They combined with the South African firm, and they purchased Australia and the Kazak reserves or 

maybe the Russians already had the Kazak, but I think actually 

the Uranium One then purchased. 

This is in a New York Times article. 

Secretary MONIZ. I didn’t see it, so, I’m sorry. 

Senator CASSIDY. But they now own reserves in the Western 

United States which, I gather, are being exported to Canada, the 

mined material even though it is not allowed for Uranium One, but 

the trucking company is allowed to export. So it seemed, kind of, 

like a loophole. 

Well, I will submit these questions for the record since you do 

not know the answers. 

Secretary MONIZ. Okay. 

Senator CASSIDY. Again, it just seems of incredible importance to 

our national security and to our energy security, so that is why I 

ask. 

Secretary MONIZ. Okay, well I’ll look into it, sir. 

Senator CASSIDY. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Cassidy. 

We are just about to the noon hour. 

I have a couple of quick questions for you and one follows on 

your discussion with Senator Franken about what the Office of Indian Energy is doing. I think we have seen some good things. I will 

look forward to discussing this loan guarantee with you a little bit 

more. 

I think we recognize that in places like Alaska and in going back 

to the discussion about how we partner with Canada and some of 

our infrastructure issues, we know that heat is the biggest energy 

challenge in the North, not necessarily electricity. So recognizing 

that the QER is looking to partner with Canada on energy delivery 

to remote areas is just something that I want to work with you on. 

I want to try to explore some of the different delivery systems that 

you are talking about there, whether it is space heating, efficient 

design housing technologies. 

I was up in Iqaluit in the Nunavut Territory with Secretary of 

State on Friday. You realize how isolated these communities are, 

even communities of significant size and significant resource, but 

the challenges that they face, they also are exclusively powered by 

diesel. 

Secretary MONIZ. And expensive. 

The CHAIRMAN. Extraordinarily, extraordinarily expensive. 

So how we deal with this? We have got so much to learn from 

one another. This is where, I think, we have certain advantages 

coming at us as we take over the Chair of the Arctic Council is how 

we can be partnering with our northern neighbors in understanding some of the best technologies that are out there. 

I would encourage us to look at what we have been developing 

in Alaska whether it is the Cold Climate Housing Research Center, 

the innovative technologies that have been coming out of there 

with regards to sustainable design, building community capacity. 

We really do have some remarkable models, so this is something 


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that I encourage us to really partner with you on. We have some 

key opportunities. 

The final issue that I want to bring up relating to Alaska is the 

recommendations. There are two of them. One is the Remote Community Renewable Energy Partnership, and the other is this coordination with Canada. Again, I am pleased with the direction 

that we are looking there but want to know that we are working 

together in this. 

With regards to the Remote Community Renewable Energy Partnership, the QER states that the State Department with this partnership will construct a high penetration wind/diesel hybrid system 

in a rural Arctic community. 

Now it suggests that it is one project that they are looking to 

help build out, but when you take into account what we have done 

in the State of Alaska since 2008, we have invested more than 

$247 million to 275 renewable energy projects across the state 

through our state’s renewable energy grant fund, We funded $5.5 

million to 20 emerging energy technology projects. We spent more 

than $600 million on making homes more energy efficient. So it has 

been a total of about $850 million that the state has invested with 

its expertise and just all that it is doing. 

I am hoping that when we are reading what is coming out of the 

QER it is it is not just limited to a single project that you are looking at with the Remote Community Renewable Energy Partnership, but again, looking to how we can build off of what the state 

has already done, is continuing to do, but really develop a stronger 

partnership there. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yeah and again, I would welcome that and I 

think, as you know, we do have, I think it’s in Anchorage is where 

they’re located, a person from NREL and a person from NETL 

there. And they might be good conduits for looking at how the state 

programs and what we do could be synched up. 

The CHAIRMAN. We will work together on that. 

Secretary MONIZ. Because we do have those people based in Alaska. 

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. My last question for you is regarding the 

spent nuclear fuel, and there is very little in the QER about nuclear energy and really nothing about the back end of the fuel 

cycle. 

We have been working on this. I truly appreciate how you have 

interacted with, not only Senator Cantwell and myself, but Senators Alexander and Feinstein on this issue, but why is this not addressed in the QER? 

Secretary MONIZ. Well, again, the QER was on infrastructure 

and moving energy around as opposed to the—concerning nuclear 

power. I think you’re correct. We could have put something in there 

in terms of transportation of spent fuel, for example. 

We do have in our budget request for FY’16, $6.9 million, I think, 

specifically to address the transportation questions of spent fuel including the kinds of rail casks you would need, etcetera. So that’s 

in there. But otherwise we did not address that in the QER. 

But again, I’m happy to keep talking about that including the 

storage options and the transportation option, developing consent 


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based processes and looking at the defense waste pathways that we 

can now pursue. So I think it’s a full agenda. 

The CHAIRMAN. It is. 

Secretary MONIZ. And I look forward to working on that. 

The CHAIRMAN. It is a full agenda, and we are going to be having 

a hearing on our nuclear waste legislation in the next month and 

a half or so. 

Secretary MONIZ. Excellent. 

The CHAIRMAN. So we will look forward to your comments on 

that. 

Secretary MONIZ. Great. 

The CHAIRMAN. Obviously you have presented a great deal 

through this QER, and we appreciate that. But again, I think it is 

going to be incumbent on you and your team at DOE and those of 

us here at the Committee and on the House side as well, to really 

figure out, okay, how do we move forward with this? How do we 

keep up the level of engagement? 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. 

The CHAIRMAN. How do we make sure that this is more than just 

talk? Because the need is so clearly there. 

Secretary MONIZ. Yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. That we are limiting ourselves. We are limiting 

our economic opportunities. We are limiting our potential as a nation when we do not focus on a longer term view of our energy infrastructure. 

If we cannot move it around to where the people are, if we cannot do it safely and in an environmentally responsible and a cost 

effective way, the rest of the system just does not work. So work 

with us to make sure that we have a real action plan moving forward. 

Secretary MONIZ. Great. 

The CHAIRMAN. And I look forward to that. 

Secretary MONIZ. We are very eager. And in fact, we’ve also, it’s 

not in the plan, but we can share this, come back and talk about 

what our recommendations in the plan that, you know, which ones 

could we pursue with, you know, current authorities in the Administration and which ones—and that’s relatively few verses all those 

that will need action in this body. 

The CHAIRMAN. Yea. 

Secretary MONIZ. And so I have no interest in having a wonderful monument on a library shelf as opposed to an implementation 

plan. 

And we will be turning now both to implementation issues of 

QER One and starting to think now about a second round of QER 

Two because this clearly was only one slice of the overall picture, 

yeah. 

And also, if I may, just repeat something I said earlier on. I 

think it follows on what you said that the decisions we take, I 

think, will be very important for shaping the energy system for 

decades. But the decisions we don’t take will be equally important. 

The CHAIRMAN. True. [Laughter.] 

Secretary MONIZ. Doing nothing is not neutral in this business. 

The CHAIRMAN. I agree. And it ought not be an option either. 

Secretary MONIZ. Right. 


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The CHAIRMAN. So we look forward to working with you. 

Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. I know we are closing out here as we get to 

the noon hour. I just, again, want to thank the Secretary for the 

report and heading that up in coordination with other agencies. I 

certainly appreciate the climate goals that are in the report as well. 

More specifically, I want to work with you on, I think it was 

something like, one million people currently work in energy transmission but we think there will be an additional 1.5 million by 

2030. That is the need. 

Secretary MONIZ. In energy. 

Senator CANTWELL. I have no doubt that we need to skill up a 

lot of the American workforce if we are going to meet that demand 

and that goal. It is as you said, IT meeting the grid. It is an exciting opportunity, but I think at the base level there is a lot of work 

to do whether that is through DOE or interagency work, or apprentice programs or many other things. I think skilling the workforce 

is going to be a critical aspect of meeting the energy needs of the 

future. 

Secretary MONIZ. We have formed, not so long ago, a jobs strategy council at DOE under the very able leadership of someone 

named Dave Foster. I’d be delighted to have him come up and meet 

with you and your staff or others. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. 

Secretary MONIZ. Because I think making some real progress in 

a number of dimensions including the issue of veteran hiring into 

the energy arena. But they’re involved also with community college 

programs, all kinds of issues in terms of driving a jobs agenda for 

energy. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. 

Secretary MONIZ. You know. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. 

With that we stand adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:57 a.m. the hearing was adjourned.] 


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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 231 here 95272A.132
170 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 232 here 95272A.133
171 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 233 here 95272A.134
172 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 234 here 95272A.135
173 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 235 here 95272A.136
174 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 236 here 95272A.137
175 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 237 here 95272A.138
176 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 238 here 95272A.139
177 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 239 here 95272A.140
178 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 240 here 95272A.141
179 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 241 here 95272A.142
180 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 242 here 95272A.143
181 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 243 here 95272A.144
182 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 244 here 95272A.145
183 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 245 here 95272A.146
184 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 246 here 95272A.147
185 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 247 here 95272A.148
186 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 248 here 95272A.149
187 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 249 here 95272A.150
188 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 250 here 95272A.151
189 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 251 here 95272A.152
190 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 252 here 95272A.153
191 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 253 here 95272A.154
192 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 254 here 95272A.155
193 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 255 here 95272A.156
194 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 256 here 95272A.157
195 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 257 here 95272A.158
196 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 258 here 95272A.159
197 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 259 here 95272A.160
198 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 260 here 95272A.161
199 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 261 here 95272A.162
200 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 262 here 95272A.163
201 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 263 here 95272A.164
202 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 264 here 95272A.165
203 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 265 here 95272A.166
204 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 266 here 95272A.167
205 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 267 here 95272A.168
206 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 268 here 95272A.169
207 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 269 here 95272A.170
208 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 270 here 95272A.171
209 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 271 here 95272A.172
210 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 272 here 95272A.173
211 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 273 here 95272A.174
212 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 274 here 95272A.175
213 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 275 here 95272A.176
214 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 276 here 95272A.177
215 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 277 here 95272A.178
216 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 278 here 95272A.179
217 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 279 here 95272A.180
218 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 280 here 95272A.181
219 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 281 here 95272A.182
220 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 282 here 95272A.183
221 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 283 here 95272A.184
222 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 284 here 95272A.185
223 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 285 here 95272A.186
224 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 286 here 95272A.187
225 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 287 here 95272A.188
226 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 288 here 95272A.189
227 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 289 here 95272A.190
228 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 290 here 95272A.191
229 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 291 here 95272A.192
230 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 292 here 95272A.193
231 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 293 here 95272A.194
232 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 294 here 95272A.195
233 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 295 here 95272A.196
234 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 296 here 95272A.197
235 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 297 here 95272A.198
236 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 298 here 95272A.199
237 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 299 here 95272A.200
238 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 300 here 95272A.201
239 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 301 here 95272A.202
240 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 302 here 95272A.203
241 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 303 here 95272A.204
242 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 304 here 95272A.205
243 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 305 here 95272A.206
244 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 306 here 95272A.207
245 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 307 here 95272A.208
246 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 308 here 95272A.209
247 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 309 here 95272A.210
248 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 310 here 95272A.211
249 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 311 here 95272A.212
250 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 312 here 95272A.213
251 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 313 here 95272A.214
252 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 314 here 95272A.215
253 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 315 here 95272A.216
254 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 316 here 95272A.217
255 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 317 here 95272A.218
256 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 318 here 95272A.219
257 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 319 here 95272A.220
258 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 320 here 95272A.221
259 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 321 here 95272A.222
260 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 322 here 95272A.223
261 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 323 here 95272A.224
262 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 324 here 95272A.225
263 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 325 here 95272A.226
264 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 326 here 95272A.227
265 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 327 here 95272A.228
266 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 328 here 95272A.229
267 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 329 here 95272A.230
268 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 330 here 95272A.231
269 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 331 here 95272A.232
270 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 332 here 95272A.233
271 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 333 here 95272A.234
272 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 334 here 95272A.235
273 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 335 here 95272A.236
274 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 336 here 95272A.237
275 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 337 here 95272A.238
276 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 338 here 95272A.239
277 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 339 here 95272A.240
278 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 340 here 95272A.241
279 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 341 here 95272A.242
280 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 342 here 95272A.243
281 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 343 here 95272A.244
282 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 344 here 95272A.245
283 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 345 here 95272A.246
284 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 346 here 95272A.247
285 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 347 here 95272A.248
286 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 348 here 95272A.249
287 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 349 here 95272A.250
288 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 350 here 95272A.251
289 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 351 here 95272A.252
290 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 352 here 95272A.253
291 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 353 here 95272A.254
292 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 354 here 95272A.255
293 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 355 here 95272A.256
294 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 356 here 95272A.257
295 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 357 here 95272A.258
296 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 358 here 95272A.259
297 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 359 here 95272A.260
298 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 360 here 95272A.261
299 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 361 here 95272A.262
300 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 362 here 95272A.263
301 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 363 here 95272A.264
302 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 364 here 95272A.265
303 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 365 here 95272A.266
304 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 366 here 95272A.267
305 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 367 here 95272A.268
306 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 368 here 95272A.269
307 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 369 here 95272A.270
308 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 370 here 95272A.271
309 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 371 here 95272A.272
310 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 372 here 95272A.273
311 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 373 here 95272A.274
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 374 here 95272A.275
313 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 375 here 95272A.276
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 376 here 95272A.277
315 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 377 here 95272A.278
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 378 here 95272A.279
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 379 here 95272A.280
318 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 380 here 95272A.281
319 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 381 here 95272A.282
320 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 382 here 95272A.283
321 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 383 here 95272A.284
322 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 384 here 95272A.285
323 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 385 here 95272A.286
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 386 here 95272A.287
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 387 here 95272A.288
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 388 here 95272A.289
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 389 here 95272A.290
328 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 390 here 95272A.291
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 391 here 95272A.292
330 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 392 here 95272A.293
331 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 393 here 95272A.294
332 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 394 here 95272A.295
333 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 395 here 95272A.296
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 396 here 95272A.297
335 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 397 here 95272A.298
336 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 398 here 95272A.299
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 399 here 95272A.300
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 400 here 95272A.301
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 401 here 95272A.302
340 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 402 here 95272A.303
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 403 here 95272A.304
342 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 404 here 95272A.305
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 405 here 95272A.306
344 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 406 here 95272A.307
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 407 here 95272A.308
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 408 here 95272A.309
347 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 409 here 95272A.310
348 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 410 here 95272A.311
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 411 here 95272A.312
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 412 here 95272A.313
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 413 here 95272A.314
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 414 here 95272A.315
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 415 here 95272A.316
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 416 here 95272A.317
355 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 417 here 95272A.318
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 418 here 95272A.319
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 419 here 95272A.320
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 420 here 95272A.321
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 421 here 95272A.322
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 422 here 95272A.323
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 423 here 95272A.324
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 424 here 95272A.325
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 425 here 95272A.326
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 426 here 95272A.327
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 427 here 95272A.328
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 428 here 95272A.329
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 429 here 95272A.330
368 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 430 here 95272A.331
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 431 here 95272A.332
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 432 here 95272A.333
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 433 here 95272A.334
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 434 here 95272A.335
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 435 here 95272A.336
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 436 here 95272A.337
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 437 here 95272A.338
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 438 here 95272A.339
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 439 here 95272A.340
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 440 here 95272A.341
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 441 here 95272A.342
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 442 here 95272A.343
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 443 here 95272A.344
382 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 444 here 95272A.345
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 445 here 95272A.346
384 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 446 here 95272A.347
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 447 here 95272A.348
386 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 448 here 95272A.349
387 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 449 here 95272A.350
388 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 450 here 95272A.351
389 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 451 here 95272A.352
390 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 452 here 95272A.353
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 453 here 95272A.354
392 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 454 here 95272A.355
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 455 here 95272A.356
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 456 here 95272A.357
395 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 457 here 95272A.358
396 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 458 here 95272A.359
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 459 here 95272A.360
398 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 460 here 95272A.361
399 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 461 here 95272A.362
400 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 462 here 95272A.363
401 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 463 here 95272A.364
402 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 464 here 95272A.365
403 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 465 here 95272A.366
404 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 466 here 95272A.367
405 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 467 here 95272A.368
406 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 468 here 95272A.369
407 


emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 469 here 95272A.370
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 470 here 95272A.371
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 471 here 95272A.372
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 472 here 95272A.373
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 473 here 95272A.374
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 474 here 95272A.375
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 475 here 95272A.376
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 476 here 95272A.377
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 477 here 95272A.378
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 478 here 95272A.379
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 479 here 95272A.380
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 480 here 95272A.381
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 481 here 95272A.382
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 482 here 95272A.383
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 483 here 95272A.384
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 484 here 95272A.385
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 485 here 95272A.386
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 486 here 95272A.387
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 487 here 95272A.388
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 488 here 95272A.389
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 489 here 95272A.390
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 490 here 95272A.391
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 491 here 95272A.392
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 492 here 95272A.393
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 493 here 95272A.394
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 494 here 95272A.395
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 495 here 95272A.396
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 496 here 95272A.397
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 497 here 95272A.398
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 498 here 95272A.399
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 499 here 95272A.400
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 500 here 95272A.401
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 501 here 95272A.402
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 502 here 95272A.403
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 503 here 95272A.404
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 504 here 95272A.405
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 505 here 95272A.406
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 506 here 95272A.407
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 507 here 95272A.408
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 508 here 95272A.409
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 509 here 95272A.410
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 510 here 95272A.411
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 511 here 95272A.412
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emcdonald on DSK3SPTVN1PROD with HEARINGInsert graphic folio 512 here 95272A.413