NEAL R. GROSS

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### U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

+ + + + +

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE

(ASRAC)

+ + + + +

MEETING

+ + + +

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 2013

The ASRAC convened in Room 8E

- 089, U.S. Department of Energy, 1000 Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, D.C., at 10:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, moderator, presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT

ANDREW deLASKI, Appliance Standards Awareness Project, Co

- Chair JOHN MANDYCK, UTC Climate, Controls & Security, Co

- Chair DOUG BROOKMAN, Pub lic Solutions, Inc., Moderator ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Team Lead for Test Procedures and Certification and Enforcement, Department of Energy JOHN F. CASKEY, National Electrical Manufacturers Association TIMOTHY CASSIDY, Best Buy STEVEN COUSINS, Coca

- Cola Company THOMAS COUGHLIN, National Grid TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation Council DAVID HUNGERFORD, California Energy Commission KELLEY KLINE, General Electric KENT PETERSON, P2S EngineeringNEAL R. GROSS

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### PRESENT FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

DANIEL COHE N, General Counsel JOHN CYMBALSKY, Designated Federal Official, Department of Energy ROLAND RISSER, Department of Energy

ALSO PRESENT

KARIM AMRANE, Air

- Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute NORMAN ASBJORNSON, AAON ROBERT ASDAL, Hydrau lic Institute BILL BELT, Consumer Electronics Association ALEX BOSENBURG, NEMA DONALD BRUNDAGE, Southern Company DAVID CALABRESE, Air

- Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute KEITH DENNIS, National Rural Electric Cooperative Association JORDA N DORIA, Ingersoll Rand HOLLY EVANS, Strategic Counsel GARY FERNSTRAM, PG&E DEREK GREENAUER, Underwriters Laboratories MARK HANDZEL, Xylem CHARLES HON, True ALBERT HUBER, Patterson MICHAEL IVANOVICH, Air Movement and Control Association International GAR Y LANGILLE, Echostar KEVIN MESSNER, AHAM KAREN MEYERS, Rheem ANDREW MOORE, Mitsubishi Electric NATHAN MOUW, Whirlpool ELIZABETH NOLL, American Gas Association GREG ORLOFF, CSA Group TRAVIS PURKINS, Whirlpool JENNIFER REED, Illinois Tool Works, Inc. MICHA EL RIVEST, Navigant STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute STEPHEN SCHAEFER, Hoshizaki America, Inc. RON SHEBIK, Ingersoll Rand MARK STANGA, DaikinNEAL R. GROSS

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### ALSO PRESENT: (cont.)

ELIZABETH TATE, American Public Gas Association RUSTY THARP, Goodman Manufac turing Company,
L.P. GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos GARY VERDUN, Grundfos KEVIN WASHINGTON, Illinois Tool Works, Inc. KAY WINN, Kathleen Winn & AssociatesNEAL R. GROSS

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### T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S

Welcome Remarks, Doug Brookman

............. 5

Welcome Remarks, Roland Risser

............. 5

Welc ome Remarks, Co

- chair Mandyck

......... 14

Welcome Remarks, Co

- chair deLaski

......... 15

Brief Overview and Agenda Items

........... 17 Doug Brookman

Introductions of Members

................. 20

ASRAC Overview, John Cymbalsky

............ 44

Program Overview, John Cymbalsky

.......... 66

Lunch

................................ .... 127

Discussion of Facil itating Program Activities

- Committee members

.......... 128

Next Steps

............................... 311

AdjournmentNEAL R. GROSS

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### P

- R

- O

- C

- E

- E

- D

- I

- N

- G

- S 1



### (9:59 a.m.) 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, 3



### everyone, and welcome. This is the first 4



### meeting of the Appliance Standards and 5



### Rulemaking Federal Adv isory Committee here at 6



### the U.S. Department of Energy. Today is 7



### February 26, 2013. 8



### So glad you could make it here 9



### this morning. We're going to start off with 10



### welcoming remarks from Roland Risser. 11



### MR. RISSER: Good morning from me 12



### as well. My name is Roland Risser and I'm the 13



### Director of the Building Technologies Office 14



### here at the Department of Energy. My 15



### responsibility includes among other things the 16



### Appliance and Equipment Standards Program. 17



### First, thanks for joining us 18



### today. This is a FACA. Y ou're going to hear 19



### more about that. I think we probably are 20



### going to have an attorney that will make sure 21



### we stay on track. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### But for those of you who may not 1



### be as familiar with that, I looked it up on 2



### Wikipedia. So what popped up is Federation of 3



### Angl ican Churches in the Americas, Military of 4



### the Central African Republic and the Figi 5



### Cycling Association. So if you're here for 6



### any of those, you're in the wrong room. 7



### (Laughter.) 8



### So ours is the Federal Advisory 9



### Committee Act meeting. And the particu lar one 10



### -- well, first on that, you'll probably get 11



### more about this. But the part I liked about 12



### this is this is administered by GSA. And the 13



### one sentence that I liked best was, these are 14



### provisional bodies that have the advantage of 15



### being able to circum vent bureaucracy and 16



### collect a range of opinions. 17



### So if you look at how the FACA was 18



### set up, you would say we didn't circumvent 19



### bureaucracy. Hopefully, from now going 20



### forward we can do some of that. That's the 21



### intent of this. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Now the specific committ ee is the 1



### Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal 2



### Advisory Committee. I think John wisely left 3



### the F out of the acronym. And so it came out 4



### with ASRAC. That's what you're here for. 5



### You're in the right place at the right time. 6



### I'm excited about thi s 7



### opportunity. We've steadily been improving 8



### the development of our standards program for 9



### the last three years. And this is sort of the 10



### next step in that path of improving both the 11



### open transparent process and data

- driven 12



### decisionmaking. And that's real ly the 13



### foundation for what we're trying to do here. 14



### We also believe that consensus 15



### agreement negotiated rulemakings are 16



### preferable. And the reason we set this ASRAC 17



### up is we believe this is the right way to set 18



### standards in this environment. We hope th at 19



### you believe that as well. 20



### Now the alternative is we have our 21



### regular regulatory process that we use. And 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### it actually also is public and transparent. 1



### The difference is in how the outcome gets 2



### decided. 3



### In our regular process we take the 4



### data in. Th e interactions are a little 5



### different. We do have public meetings, but we 6



### don't interact on an iterative basis. Rather, 7



### we take in information and sort of provide 8



### information that's data

- driven. And then the 9



### main communications take place in such a 10



### lovel y forum as the Federal Register, where we 11



### file information and we get comments back. 12



### That works. But I believe it's 13



### not as helpful, useful and communicative as 14



### this sort of process where you just get 15



### parties together, and you have communication 16



### in real time and it's iterative. 17



### So I also believe that the other 18



### process that I described gets an outcome that 19



### we support based upon the data we have. But 20



### it might not be the outcome that this set of 21



### the participants would set on their own if 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### they were able to negotiate an outcome. I 1



### think there's a possibility that the outcome 2



### could be better taking everything into 3



### account. We do the best we can, but we only 4



### have the data we have in front of us. 5



### We also need to point out that 6



### while we are supporting this c onsensus, 7



### negotiated rulemaking process, we learned over 8



### the last year or so that it doesn't always 9



### result in an outcome that works. And so to 10



### avoid delays and other problems we are going 11



### to make sure we continue our regular, normal 12



### process in parallel wi th this process so that 13



### if the consensus, negotiated rulemaking breaks 14



### down, we don't lose time because we have 15



### certain requirements for delivering these 16



### rules. And we want to make sure we stay on 17



### those. 18



### The advantage to that, to this 19



### process, is you al l know that if there isn't a 20



### consensus that comes out of this process 21



### there's a fallback which you may or may not 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### like. Hopefully, some of you will like it, 1



### but we do the best we can to get those rulings 2



### set with the data we have in front of us. 3



### So we'v e had a lot of questions 4



### about ASRAC and who is on it. You probably 5



### know we have over 60 products that we have 6



### regulatory authority over. And there are now 7



### over two million basic models that have been 8



### certified under this program. We also have a 9



### variet y of trade associations, non

- profits, 10



### other parties who are interested in this 11



### holistically. 12



### So you can imagine the breadth of 13



### who might want to participate. We had to make 14



### some decisions as to how to set up the 15



### steering committee. And we selected 11 16



### m embers of that steering committee. 17



### One of the things we were looking 18



### for is a group that could be quick to get 19



### results and which also reflected the broad 20



### range of opinions that are out there in the 21



### market. And you're going to hear more about 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that in a f ew minutes. 1



### The point I want to make here is, 2



### although the steering committee is very 3



### important to what we're doing, the real work 4



### takes place in the working group meetings. 5



### That's where the individual rules or test 6



### procedures of whatever gets brought f orward 7



### gets discussed. That's where we want the 8



### heaviest technical input because that's where 9



### we have to get that data

- driven information in 10



### front of everyone. 11



### And so those of you who are 12



### interested in this committee, this is an 13



### important committee. It guides what everyone 14



### does. But the real heavy lifting is going to 15



### take place there. 16



### The way we look at the program as 17



### a whole we typically build the test procedure. 18



### That rolls into FTC labels or Energy Star 19



### ratings. And that rolls into where 20



### appropri ate federal minimum energy efficiency 21



### standards. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### I'm going to give you a hint that 1



### I believe there's another area that we will 2



### want to look at and we're going to ask the 3



### ASRAC Committee to consider. We have 4



### authority over commercial product labeling 5



### tha t has never been implemented. The reason 6



### is commercial products are purchased 7



### differently than consumer products. So the 8



### whole process has to get thought of 9



### differently. 10



### There's an opportunity there to 11



### drive market behaviors which could get results 12



### qui cker and actually results that are good for 13



### consumers, for manufacturers, and others if we 14



### can do this right. So I throw that out as a 15



### topic. I think you're going to be discussing 16



### that as a possibility going forward. 17



### I will also tell you that John and 18



### I were at the White House yesterday. And they 19



### were very interested in this topic. We were 20



### talking about multiple things that could 21



### happen in that space. And my experience with 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the White House in the three short years that 1



### I've been here is you hear nothi ng until 2



### you're asked, where is the answer? Where is 3



### it? 4



### So we've had that before where 5



### there's interest. It's sort of brews. And 6



### then we get asked, okay. Where is your 7



### deliverable? So we expect something will come 8



### back out of that. And I look forw ard to 9



### hearing what the folks here have to say. 10



### We have a lot of interested 11



### parties here in the room. It's fairly packed. 12



### We welcome all of you. Keep in mind that 13



### this is an open meeting. We want to have 14



### anyone who wants to come in and listen to do 15



### s o. 16



### Thanks again for coming. I'm 17



### going to now turn this over to Doug Brookman 18



### who is going to facilitate the meeting today. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks 20



### very much. And I thought it was appropriate 21



### to recognize our co

- chairs for brief welcoming 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### re mark, Andrew deLaski and John Mandyck. 1



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, good 2



### morning. My name is John Mandyck. I'm with 3



### United Technologies. And I'm very pleased to 4



### co
- chair this committee with my friend, 5



### Andrew. 6



### Carrier Corporation is part of 7



### United Techno logies. And through that, I've 8



### had about 20 years of experience working on 9



### energy efficiency issues primarily in the 10



### heating, ventilating and air conditioning 11



### business. 12



### I think this is a great 13



### opportunity for us to make an impact on the 14



### appliance standa rds program. I think we're 15



### all here because we care about efficiency. 16



### And so I think it's with no irony that this 17



### group can help the Department actually act 18



### efficiently and more effectively through 19



### broader stakeholder participation, which is 20



### what our com mittee is all about. 21



### So I look forward to everybody's 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### participation. I think we'll get out of this 1



### what everybody wants to put into it. I would 2



### at least as a co

- chair encourage everybody to 3



### be forthright and to participate as much as 4



### you can on the iss ues that we'll have before 5



### us. 6



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: I'm Andrew 7



### deLaski and I'm the Executive Director of the 8



### Appliance Standards Awareness Project. And 9



### for those you who don't know, ASAP is a 10



### coalition project of efficiency proponents 11



### including environmen tal groups and consumer 12



### groups, representatives from state government 13



### and from utilities, a major utility. 14



### We are

-- I'm based on Boston. 15



### And it's a pleasure to be a part of this 16



### committee and to help to help the Department 17



### to advance negotiation. We a s a coalition 18



### have had

-- we're very bullish on the 19



### prospects of negotiation as a way to develop 20



### new standards and to address the needs of the 21



### program. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### We've had great success with 1



### negotiations over the years. In my experience 2



### and time that I've been do ing the work which 3



### is about 15 years now, roughly one

- third of 4



### DOE rulemakings, all the rulemakings for all 5



### new standards, have been based on negotiated 6



### outcomes. 7



### But this endeavor that we're 8



### starting on here is a new endeavor in the 9



### sense that it is no w -- DOE has created this 10



### advisory committee to bring the task of 11



### negotiation within the scope of a federal 12



### advisory committee. 13



### And several of us were involved in 14



### a process last year for transformers. John 15



### and I were on that committee and Tom and 16



### probab ly some others here in the room as well. 17



### And as John Cymbalsky said, we batted one out 18



### of three. So .333 which is not bad if we got 19



### one out of three. We'd like to have done 20



### more. But we did get one out of three, John. 21



### And it was a learning experience

. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### I think that's one that does hold promise. I 1



### think this committee and the folks who will be 2



### involved in working groups potentially could 3



### make a big contribution to how we advance new 4



### standards for difficult topics that may 5



### otherwise be hard to advance. 6



### I welcome the opportunity to be 7



### involved with the committee and to help as 8



### John said, the more we put into it the more 9



### we'll get out of it. Look forward to the 10



### work. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank 12



### you, Andrew. Thank you, John. And thank you, 13



### Rolan d. 14



### The conduct of a federal advisory 15



### committee is different than normal rulemaking 16



### meetings. The discussion is confined to 17



### members of the committee, but though each 18



### meeting typically has a public comment 19



### segment. So there's an opportunity for 20



### anybody t hat wishes to do so to comment on the 21



### work of the committee. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### And also the Department has gone 1



### to lengths today and I think we'll continue, 2



### too, to make this an open meeting that is 3



### accessible via the web. So we welcome those 4



### individuals that have joined us via the web. 5



### And do we know about how many have joined us 6



### via the web? Twenty. So we welcome them. 7



### All of you received a copy of the 8



### agenda as you walked in the room. I think 9



### immediately following this brief overview of 10



### the agenda we're going to ask each committee 11



### member to introduce him

- or herself and take a 12



### couple of minutes to explain their connection 13



### to the Appliance Standards Program, discuss 14



### their expectations and what they might seek to 15



### be the achievements of the committee. 16



### Following tha t, John Cymbalsky is 17



### going to provide a program overview. And then 18



### there's going to be a discussion period, 19



### overview of committee operations, framework 20



### and discussion with the members. We'll take a 21



### lunch right around noon today. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### And then following lunc h we're 1



### going to be as a committee identifying initial 2



### committee efforts to best facilitate program 3



### activities. And this will be an opportunity 4



### for committee members to suggest possible 5



### ideas and to think about what the committee 6



### might be taking up looki ng ahead. 7



### Around about 2:30 p.m. or 3:00 8



### p.m., next steps and then around about 3:00 9



### p.m. or so public comment period. We expect 10



### there will be closing and adjourning today 11



### right about 3:30 p.m. So that's the plan for 12



### today. 13



### Questions and comments bef ore we 14



### proceed? 15



### (No response.) 16



### So I would like to then commence 17



### and ask individual committee members to 18



### introduce themselves and say a couple of 19



### minutes about their expectations, their hopes, 20



### what they'd like to see accomplished. 21



### And whoever would li ke to go 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### first. You need to turn the microphone on and 1



### off, so you can get used to it. 2



### Do you want to start, David? 3



### DR. HUNGERFORD: That's fine. My 4



### name is David Hungerford. I currently am 5



### working for the California Energy Commission. 6



### I've advised three commissioners in series on 7



### appliance standards rulemakings at the Energy 8



### Commission and have worked with our staff and 9



### folks at DOE to advance efficiency standards 10



### for a number of years now. In a previous 11



### incarnation of this body, the Appliance 12



### Sta ndards Subcommittee of the ASRAC, I 13



### participated as well. 14



### My interest today is for this 15



### committee in maximizing energy savings, 16



### opportunities, through creative regulatory 17



### approaches. But the flexibility that is 18



### inherent in such approaches that are fast 19



### evolving products and product markets. 20



### Have to engender accountability 21



### through transparency and a commitment to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### measurable energy savings outcomes. And 1



### that's my major goal. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We'll just 3



### go in sequence. But anybody can skip if th ey 4



### wish. 5



### Tom. 6



### MR. ECKMAN: I am Tom Eckman. I'm 7



### Conservation Manager with the Northwest Power 8



### and Conservation Council. It's an interstate 9



### compact formed by the states of Oregon, 10



### Washington, Idaho and Montana to represent the 11



### governors and the consti tuents in those states 12



### in the Northwest electric energy planning 13



### matters. Also to take care of the fish and 14



### wildlife that were damaged by the construction 15



### of the hydro projects along the Columbia and 16



### Snake Rivers which is another part of our 17



### work. 18



### I've been involved in energy 19



### efficiency since 1975. So I've been around a 20



### while working particularly on state codes and 21



### standards and looking at energy efficiency as 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### an opportunity for utility investments to meet 1



### load growth. 2



### With respect to the standards 3



### pr ocess, I've been involved in several of the 4



### negotiated rulemakings that have been taking 5



### place over the years primarily informally, not 6



### necessarily headed up by DOE but involved with 7



### DOE. And found those to be a much more 8



### satisfactory way of getting to con sensus on 9



### how to move the standards forward than the 10



### regulatory process itself. You can't get 11



### creative solutions very well out of that 12



### process. 13



### I think that's what I'm looking 14



### for here is the way that we can get agreement 15



### on creative solutions that woul d advance 16



### sufficiency and maintain the product 17



### competitiveness that we'd all like. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 19



### Steven. 20



### MR. COUSINS: My name is Steve 21



### Cousins. I'm the Director of Immediate 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Consumption Equipment Governance with the 1



### Coca

- Cola Company. When I say Immediate 2



### Consumption Equipment Governance, what I'm 3



### referring to is that Coca

- Cola Company for the 4



### most part, we don't build appliances. We buy 5



### appliances. And my organization actually 6



### establishes and maintains the standards that 7



### the Coca

- Col a Company has for its appliances 8



### and the approval programs and immediate 9



### consumption, because a majority of the 10



### beverages that we sell globally is for 11



### immediate consumption and to be consumed 12



### immediately. And we'd like our products to be 13



### consumed cold. S o we're very much concerned 14



### about commercial refrigeration. 15



### We have about 14 million 16



### commercial refrigeration items placed around 17



### the world. I mean vending machines, 18



### commercial refrigerators, merchandisers, 19



### fountain dispensers, things of that nature. 20



### S lightly more than three million here in the 21



### United States. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### And the Coca

- Cola Company has been 1



### very concerned about responsible standards 2



### regarding energy, the equipment that we 3



### purchase. Actually, the Coca

- Cola 4



### contribution to global warning, our carbon 5



### footprint, the largest piece actually is our 6



### appliances. It's not our manufacturing sites, 7



### our bottling operations or our fleet. It's 8



### actually our refrigerators, our vending 9



### machines, our fountain dispensers that consume 10



### the most energy in our system. So we're very 11



### much concerned about purchasing and placing 12



### equipment that's going to be efficient. 13



### What I'd like

-- a role I'd like 14



### to play in this committee is to bring to the 15



### attention or advise on implications of 16



### standards as it impacts desires of othe r 17



### government agencies like the EPA, for example. 18



### We've seen conflicts between what the DOE 19



### wants to do and what the EPA wants to do, 20



### particularly in the area of commercial 21



### refrigerants or refrigerants used in our 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### equipment. 1



### And at the same time since Co ca
2



### Cola is a global company, we're very much in 3



### tune to standards internationally. And we'd 4



### like to see responsible standards in the U.S. 5



### mesh or work in tandem with what's happening 6



### in Europe and Latin America and other 7



### geographies. I'm glad to be a par t. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 9



### John. 10



### MR. CASKEY: I'm just glad when I 11



### have the choice in the vending machine that I 12



### pick the right product out of the vending 13



### machine which is a bottle of Coca

- Cola. So 14



### thank you for that. 15



### My name is John Caskey. I' m the 16



### Assistant Vice President of Industry 17



### Operations for the National Electrical 18



### Manufacturers Association. I've worked for 19



### them for seven years. 20



### I've got overall probably about 35 21



### years of experience in the energy area. Prior 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### to working for NEMA, I w orked for two 1



### different utilities, both Pacific Gas & 2



### Electric Company and Dominion Virginia Power 3



### and Dominion Energy. So I have both utility 4



### as well as some product manufacturing 5



### experience. 6



### Some of the things, I did 7



### participate in the negotiated rule making 8



### process for distribution transformers. And 9



### that was something that interests me very 10



### much. I think that approach is a very 11



### positive approach. So I am a wholehearted 12



### supporter of the negotiated rulemaking 13



### process. 14



### I think one of the things that 15



### came out of that that I think is most valuable 16



### and that's sort of related to, if you will, 17



### one of my pet peeves which is it seems like 18



### some of the modeling that's done and the 19



### analysis that's done is very difficult to 20



### duplicate or to validate. So one of t he 21



### things I want to bring to the table is more 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### discussions dealing with how do you 1



### effectively validate some of the models that 2



### are used by Department of Energy. That's where 3



### negotiated rulemaking to me came in because we 4



### had manufacturers and utilities an d others 5



### sitting around the table. 6



### And they are actually very willing 7



### to share information to say, well, when I do 8



### my analysis to design a transformer I came in 9



### at X number of dollars and the modeling came 10



### in at Y number of dollars. And then we tried 11



### to figure out what caused those differences. 12



### So I think that's a very valuable outcome of 13



### the negotiated rulemaking process is that you 14



### have a face

- to

- face opportunity to sort of 15



### valid some of those models and make sure 16



### they're relatively in the right ball park. 17



### The other things that interest me 18



### really deal with the cost

- effectiveness of the 19



### final rules and to make sure that there's a 20



### balance between energy efficiency going 21



### forward and the cost to the manufacturers or 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the cost to the public in all of these things. 1



### So I'm certainly looking forward 2



### to participating in this. And I'm ready to 3



### get started. Thank you. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 5



### MR. CASSIDY: Hi, I'm Tim Cassidy. 6



### I work for Best Buy. I work in their private 7



### label enterprise. My role at B est Buy is with 8



### compliance in general for products. We sell a 9



### lot of different kinds of products, various 10



### types of appliances, meaning things you plug 11



### in the wall. 12



### I've been involved in a lot of 13



### different standards committees for things like 14



### quality sta ndards, safety standards and energy 15



### standards. I worked with the Department of 16



### Energy before and the California Energy 17



### Commission on both plug

- in

- the

- wall power 18



### supplies and battery chargers. 19



### I hope to bring a little different 20



### perspective on supply chai n especially being 21



### from a retailer than what you might see in one 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### of these types of committees or that I have 1



### seen before. And also to achieve a better 2



### level of collaboration around how to 3



### accomplish standards that are useful for all 4



### the parties concerned and that are within what 5



### the state of the art can truly accomplish. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 7



### MR. PETERSON: I am Kent 8



### Peterson, Vice President, P2S Engineering, a 9



### consulting engineering firm out of California. 10



### Also very active in ASHRAE, the Ameri can 11



### Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air 12



### Conditioning Engineers. 13



### I think if there is one goal that 14



### I have it's probably what Roland said. And 15



### don't want to add any bureaucracy to what you 16



### already have. 17



### This committee really should be 18



### able if I ha ve an outlook on the committee, 19



### it's to be able to reach consensus and help 20



### assist in the rulemaking process, so we can 21



### get some of the I guess gridlock that's really 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### plagued the Department maybe for the last 15 1



### years in this area on trying to get the rule s 2



### updates and get some of the new rules out. 3



### I am interested in flexibility. I 4



### do believe strongly in industry consensus 5



### standards. I have a lot of experience in 6



### industry consensus standards and how they 7



### might be able to help in the rulemaking. 8



### Also I really believe that 9



### anything that we're doing really has to have 10



### good life

- cycle cost

- benefit analysis that 11



### really supports not only the manufacturers, 12



### but the endusers on where we're actually 13



### applying these standards. And certainly we 14



### have to look at i t not only from a national 15



### but hopefully on an international level when 16



### it impacts manufacturers that are 17



### manufacturing internationally. 18



### I look forward to working with 19



### everyone on the committee. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 21



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: So I gave my 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### initial introduction. Now I'll just elaborate 1



### a little bit here on some thoughts. We've 2



### talked about the experience on transformers 3



### and I also referenced some remarks said about 4



### one
- third of the standards that DOE have 5



### issued have been based on negoti ation. 6



### And those negotiations have been 7



### private negotiations meaning that stakeholders 8



### like my organization and John or folks around 9



### this table have gotten together to develop a 10



### recommendation and submitted that to the 11



### Department. And those private nego tiations 12



### have really taken

-- there have been two 13



### flavors in my experience. 14



### One flavor has been when we just 15



### work it out amongst ourselves and then throw 16



### it over to the Department. And then the 17



### Department before we start our rulemaking 18



### process elicits c omments from everybody else 19



### in the world who wants to comment and comes up 20



### with the final rule. And that's worked pretty 21



### well. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### The Department in general has been 1



### able to adopt those standards. But sometimes 2



### hasn't for one reason or another. That's one 3



### flavor. 4



### Another flavor of these negotiated 5



### rulemakings historically has been one where 6



### the Department has been at the table to 7



### provide information and data to the 8



### negotiators. And that's also been a very 9



### constructive model. I'm thinking most 10



### recently of the discussions with AHAM that 11



### General Electric was involved with and I think 12



### Kevin from AHAM is here where the Department 13



### provided data to the process. 14



### So the Department wasn't an actual 15



### negotiator, but was a support. We were able 16



### to say, would you run this iteration of the 17



### model and give us data to help inform the 18



### discussions. And the Department because it 19



### has to be public has posted that data to the 20



### website and made it available to anybody who 21



### wants to see it. That's been another model. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### And wh at we're talking about today 1



### is a new model, one where the Department is 2



### actually at the table. And I think John is 3



### going to describe this later. But what I want 4



### to emphasize is that I think that those two 5



### old models, they still work. 6



### So we right now have before the 7



### Department a recommendation for motors that 8



### our organization has worked out with NEMA and 9



### the motor manufacturers and has been submitted 10



### as a joint recommendation without the 11



### Department having been part of that 12



### negotiation process. 13



### But ye t it's now before the 14



### Department. The Department is working on a 15



### proposed rule which we hope will reflect the 16



### consensus that was submitted to it. Those 17



### processes in my view still remain very good 18



### processes for developing standards and ones 19



### that we should continue to explore and to 20



### develop. 21



### The other process is of course the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### typical rulemaking process which Roland 1



### described at the beginning, with notice and 2



### comment rulemaking, which if one

- third were 3



### negotiated that means two

- thirds weren't. And 4



### some of those have been contested. Some of 5



### those have been contentious. Some of them 6



### have not been contentious. 7



### And that will also continue to be 8



### an important way for the development of rules. 9



### That doesn't go away. 10



### What I think of this process today 11



### is tha t it's a new tool in the toolkit. It's 12



### another way to develop standards that perhaps 13



### are better, can be better, for a lot of 14



### reasons that the folks who have already spoken 15



### have described. Better able to vet models as 16



### John discusses. A better way to get more 17



### stakeholders around the table who might have a 18



### view that we didn't consider those who were 19



### involved in a private negotiation. As a way 20



### to make sure that what we're developing is 21



### something the Department feels it can do. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Sometimes we've done it. We' ve come up with a 1



### great idea only to have the Department say or 2



### to have legal counsel say, great idea, guys, 3



### but we can't do it. That I think is some of 4



### the benefits we get by getting altogether 5



### through a negotiated process where the 6



### Department is an acti ve participant in the 7



### process. 8



### When we've negotiated rulemakings 9



### on a private basis, we've often pursued a 10



### couple different paths for adopting them. One 11



### is to be able to ask the Department to do it. 12



### But many of them have been enacted through 13



### Congress. So that's been an active way for 14



### doing private negotiations that we make at the 15



### same time as we're recommending them to the 16



### Department. Put it up as a consensus 17



### recommendation to Congress. When Congress is 18



### working on energy bills, that becomes the 19



### other way. So the 2005 and 2007 Energy Bills 20



### contain a bunch of consensus amendments that 21



### were negotiated by people in this room and 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### others. 1



### So I see a lot of pros in the 2



### Federal Advisory Committee process. I also 3



### see some cons. The main con I see is that 4



### it's time

- consuming. I don't think it's going 5



### to be less time. I think it's going to more 6



### time than a typical rulemaking for the 7



### stakeholders, for all stakeholders. 8



### That was certainly our experience 9



### with transformers. We spent a lot of time on 10



### transf ormers over a pretty intense period of 11



### time, a pretty compact period of time. So I 12



### think it's more demanding of those who are 13



### around the table, not less demanding. 14



### So I think we're looking for 15



### expectations for the process. We should 16



### expect that it will be a process for those who 17



### are involved in the working groups of an 18



### intense level of involvement through the 19



### committees. 20



### So I'm very optimistic that this 21



### is another way to get good standards done, to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### address nettlesome problems that are before 1



### the Depar tment. But I think we need to keep 2



### our eyes wide open as to what the demands of 3



### it are and also keep in mind that these other 4



### mechanisms for getting standards done remain 5



### very important and continue to be advanced. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 7



### John. 8



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: John Mandyck 9



### again. Just to build on my earlier comments 10



### and also to support what Andrew just said, I 11



### think I want to thank the Department for 12



### creating the committee and creating another 13



### avenue for holding discussions on complex 14



### issues. 15



### Let's face it. When it comes to 16



### appliance standards, all the easy stuff has 17



### been done. So we're moving into a more and 18



### more complex area. And we've seen the 19



### limitations of the traditional notice and 20



### comment process that doesn't facilitate 21



### dialogue and help create understanding and 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### awareness to sort through the complexities. 1



### So I think this becomes another avenue to have 2



### that dialogue, to increase participation in 3



### the process and to break down some of the 4



### complexity to arrive at a sound outcome. 5



### That's what I look forward to with the work of 6



### this group. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 8



### MR. COUGHLIN: Hi, my name is Tom 9



### Coughlin. I work for National Grid. We're a 10



### gas and electric utility serving three states, 11



### New York, Rhode Island, Massachusetts. I'm 12



### th e Manager of Technical Strategy and Policy 13



### in our Energy Efficiency Group at the company. 14



### And one thing that we do is we try 15



### to see where we can set our own program 16



### standards such that we're looking at devices, 17



### appliances, standard practices that are 18



### tec hnically and economically feasible in the 19



### marketplace. 20



### Our programs are not geared 21



### necessarily and entirely on energy savings, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### but also how those energy savings can be 1



### sustained, things like making sure that we're 2



### kind of accelerating the adoption of bui lding 3



### codes and appliance standards. 4



### For all the reasons stated here by 5



### the past speakers, I'm excited to be here 6



### myself. And I guess my wish is that this 7



### group is a really helpful committee for the 8



### Department and that we can maybe certainly 9



### help you ef fect some of these appliance 10



### standards more efficiently and effectively. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 12



### Kelley. 13



### MS. KLINE: Hi, Kelley Kline, 14



### General Electric. I'm the Product Stewardship 15



### Program Leader for GE Appliances based in 16



### Louisville, Kentucky foc using on things like 17



### the refrigeration products we make there, 18



### laundry, water heaters, the products like 19



### that. 20



### A second part of my role is as 21



### counsel to GE Home and Business Solutions 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### which consists of GE Appliances and Lighting. 1



### So a second piece is gi ving advice on various 2



### regulatory requirements, energy and others. 3



### I've been involved with the 4



### standards rulemaking process with many of the 5



### activities that other folks around the table 6



### have already noted. A big supporter of the 7



### negotiated rulemaking pr ocess. We think it 8



### gives a lot of certainty, gives the ability to 9



### really work things out at a creative level and 10



### look forward to being a part of the committee 11



### to lend our support to that. 12



### I guess in terms of an additional 13



### contribution I would hope to be able to make 14



### the committee, that would be from the 15



### perspective of a product manufacturer, some of 16



### the implications of the rulemaking process for 17



### manufacturers, some of the implications for 18



### really post

- rule implementation and the 19



### realities of complying one with the standards 20



### and laws once they're implemented. So I hope 21



### to be able to bring that perspective as well. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 1



### MS. KLINE: Thank you. 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I am Ashley 3



### Armstrong. I'm the DOE Representative on the 4



### committee. I t hink Roland laid out the 5



### overall goals of the DOE for this committee, 6



### but I look forward to working with everyone. 7



### Right now at the Department I work 8



### on a lot of the test procedure issues and some 9



### of the certification, compliance and testing 10



### issues faci ng the Department. But I'm hoping 11



### the committee will come to the table with open 12



### minds and try to come up with creative 13



### solutions to some of the more complex issues 14



### facing us in the next couple of years. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to

-- 16



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Hi, I'm John 17



### Cymbalsky. I am the Designated Federal 18



### Officer for ASRAC. So I actually don't vote 19



### in the committee, which is probably a good 20



### thing for all of you here. I'm the Program 21



### Manager for Appliance Standards and Building 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Codes under Roland's lea dership. 1



### Just a few other things to add 2



### that we haven't talked about yet. The 3



### Department through its standards program and 4



### lots of other programs that we run, a big part 5



### of what we're interested in is U.S. 6



### manufacturing. So whatever we do here, rest 7



### as sured that one of the key goals for the 8



### Department is to promote U.S. manufacturing. 9



### And I'm glad we have GE here at 10



### the table. We've heard recently on GE 11



### bringing back manufacturing to the U.S. And I 12



### think that's something all of us should be 13



### support ive of and proud of. And I think this 14



### program in particular goes out of its way to 15



### make sure that U.S. manufacturing can prosper 16



### under our regulatory regime. 17



### Again, I'll just echo what 18



### everyone has been saying. I think this 19



### committee was formed with a number of people 20



### in mind such that we can move nimbly; we can 21



### react quickly and get to solutions that 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### everybody can be happy with in this program. 1



### We talked a lot about standards. 2



### But as Roland said, there are other issues 3



### that relate to this program li ke commercial 4



### labeling is one. But there are others, just 5



### not negotiated rulemaking. 6



### So I hope everyone here keeps an 7



### open mind on what different topics we might 8



### form working groups to address. And again 9



### they don't all have to be rulemaking

- related. 10



### T hey can be anything that impacts the 11



### program. 12



### Again, I look forward to working 13



### with everybody. And I guess as DFO I get all 14



### the complaint letters and things. Keep them 15



### coming. I've got a file full of them. And 16



### we'll continue to read them. Thank you. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 18



### Do you wish to add anything more? 19



### (No response.) 20



### No. Okay. 21



### So thanks to all of you for 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### introducing yourselves. And we all have great 1



### hopes for the Advisory Committee. 2



### Next on the agenda, we're going to 3



### have a pro gram overview from John Cymbalsky. 4



### And you're going to drive those 5



### or, John, you're going to up there. 6



### MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm going to break 7



### with regular tradition and sit at the table 8



### since there are just eleven of us here. 9



### I think Doug said we're goi ng to 10



### give an overview of the program. I think we 11



### switched the order. We're going to do an 12



### overview of ASRAC first. So lay out some 13



### ground rules as we see them. And then after 14



### this we'll then go into the Appliance 15



### Standards Program Overview. 16



### With tha t, let's see. Hopefully, I 17



### hit the right button here. This is always a 18



### challenge. Okay. Got it right the first 19



### time. 20



### As has been stated already, ASRAC 21



### is an advisory committee that the Department 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### has chartered. All the committee members you 1



### see aroun d the table were appointed by DOE and 2



### specifically by the Secretary of Energy. I 3



### know some of you have been chomping at the bit 4



### for this to actually kick off. 5



### I know it's been a little bit of 6



### time since we've put out the Federal Register 7



### notice way back in March. But there still is 8



### a bureaucracy. We're going to try to cut 9



### through some red tape. But we do have to 10



### follow certain procedures. 11



### But be that as it may, we have 11 12



### of us now at the table. Each of you have 13



### different term limits that are assoc iated with 14



### your term here on ASRAC. Some have one. Some 15



### have two. Some have three years of term. 16



### They can be reappointed once. 17



### For those of you in the audience 18



### or maybe on the webinar I know we've had over 19



### 40 nominations to this. And again we picked 20



### 11. So that leaves a bunch of people still 21



### out there I know who have big interest in 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### joining this committee at some point. 1



### And just rest assured that we will 2



### be chartering lots of working groups where 3



### your participation will be needed. And we 4



### also wil l have room. Again as appointments 5



### turn over here on the committee, we will seek 6



### nominations over time. 7



### ASRAC is solely advisory in 8



### nature. So this is not a committee that says 9



### the Department shall do X and the Department 10



### shall do Y. It's an advisory committee. 11



### The committee tasks will originate 12



### from those around this table and with DOE 13



### involvement. When we initiate working groups, 14



### there will be distinct time frames that we 15



### would hope the working groups can work under 16



### with distinct outcomes as we go forward. 17



### Okay. More about the working 18



### groups. We had a call a couple of weeks ago, 19



### myself, Ashley and the two co

- chairs, and we 20



### kicked around some ideas that we think sounded 21



### good. And we're going to share them all 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### later. And, of course, everyone el se at the 1



### table obviously will hopefully have some good 2



### ideas as well. 3



### But we will vote on what working 4



### groups to commission. I think the first thing 5



### we're going to do is decide what we mean by 6



### consensus. And I spoke to John and Andrew 7



### before. 8



### In ou r transformer working group, 9



### we voted on what consensus meant. And so we 10



### need to define that first before we do any 11



### voting of any kind. So we'll do that in a 12



### bit. 13



### The thing to recognize here is 14



### that DOE may withdraw tasks from ASRAC at any 15



### time. Again , this is an advisory committee. 16



### It doesn't actually drive the boat. DOE still 17



### drives the boat. But again this committee 18



### advises us on that. 19



### In the event that a consensus 20



### recommendation is not reached, ASRAC will then 21



### tell the Department that it could not reach a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### consensus. Then the task will be withdrawn 1



### and DOE will proceed with its normal operating 2



### procedure based on whatever the task was. 3



### Scope of activities. We want to 4



### keep this as broad as possible. As I said 5



### before, let's think a little out side the box 6



### in terms of not just rulemakings but what any 7



### other types of things DOE has legal 8



### responsibility for under its statutory 9



### requirements. 10



### Obviously, the efficiency 11



### standards are one of the biggest ones and most 12



### contentious as we would expect. So I think 13



### we'll focus there obviously. 14



### But again test procedures, I know 15



### we talked about how complex things are 16



### becoming on the standards side. Well, the 17



### test procedures are for me, who I'm not an 18



### engineer and I don't pretend to know anything 19



### about phy sics or how things work, the test 20



### procedures are to me very, very confusing. I 21



### probably won't read one. But I know that 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### they're very difficult and that could be 1



### another area to have discussion around, how 2



### test procedures work. 3



### More and more we find tha t 4



### products become more complicated to test. And 5



### so we have a test procedure waiver process. 6



### So there are lots of areas there to look into. 7



### New product coverage. This group 8



### could come up with different products that may 9



### or may not meet some of the stat utory 10



### requirements to cover. But we can discuss 11



### that. 12



### Certification, laboratory 13



### accreditation and testing programs. Roland 14



### mentioned labeling. Again, another big issue 15



### for us is the commercial labeling. We've yet 16



### to do one. But we do have a few acti ve 17



### rulemakings in this base right now. We have 18



### CREs. We have WICFs. Commercial ice makers. 19



### All these things that could potentially have 20



### a label behind them. 21



### And then just any issues of 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### concern. So again let's think broadly about 1



### this and hopefully w e can reach consensus on a 2



### bunch of different items. 3



### Here's the flow chart as we see 4



### things. And thanks to Jeremiah for putting 5



### this together for us. But you can see the 6



### different levels of interaction here. 7



### But right at the beginning, so 8



### we're start ing at the task discussion here 9



### today. And you can see there will be 10



### discussions between DOE and ASRAC. Out of 11



### that we hope to get today to step two. 12



### My hope today is to have several 13



### working groups voted on and out of this 14



### committee for us to move forw ard informing 15



### those working groups, at which point, we will 16



### put out Federal Register notice to seek 17



### nominations for each of the working groups. 18



### And again that will take a little process to 19



### do that. 20



### The working groups each could have 21



### up to 25 members. T his committee will set the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### guidelines for the working groups. Again, 1



### time line, expected outcomes, that kind of 2



### thing. 3



### As they go along, the working 4



### groups will brief this committee. We don't 5



### necessarily always have to meet in person like 6



### this. We can do it over the phone. We can 7



### have conference calls, cut down on travel. 8



### Webinars. Anything that works that's more 9



### efficient. 10



### Then at the end of the day for the 11



### working groups, they will bring a 12



### recommendation, hopefully, to this committee. 13



### And this committee votes whether or not to 14



### accept that working group's recommendation. 15



### If this committee does at which time they will 16



### present it to the Department. 17



### So for transformers that's exactly 18



### how it worked. We got one out of three for 19



### the transformers. So the recommendation was 20



### brought to ERAC at the time and ERAC said, 21



### okay. We'll take your recommendation. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### They presented it to the 1



### Department. And the Department adopted that 2



### into its proposed rule. 3



### Okay. Tasking Discussion. So 4



### today we're going to I think after lunch talk 5



### about this. And we'll as a group talk about 6



### different areas for us to have working groups 7



### formed. We will vote on each one. We will 8



### also give some time lines for completion of 9



### the tasks. 10



### An important part of the working 11



### gro up thing and I think Andrew hit the nail on 12



### the head here is that the working group, we're 13



### going to call it working group for a reason 14



### because you're going to work. It's not 15



### sitting around and thinking and talking. 16



### For transformers, it was a lot of 17



### work for everyone on that committee. Multi

18



### day meetings where it was pretty intense. But 19



### again at the end of the day for us putting in 20



### more work, I think you get a better outcome at 21



### the end of the day. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### But I don't want to say that it 1



### will be easy. But wha t we're going to have to 2



### do is have at least one member from this 3



### committee on each working group as a 4



### requirement. So there are 11 of you. And I 5



### think we'll share the pain. And hopefully we 6



### can match up topics with backgrounds of us 7



### that are around the table. 8



### And hopefully we don't have this. 9



### But in an instance where there is no 10



### volunteer, we're going to vote one. And again 11



### there's 11 votes. So there's going to be an 12



### outcome, right. So hopefully we don't go 13



### there. 14



### And then, of course, there will be 15



### a DOE member on each of the working groups as 16



### well. And it's not just Ashley or me. You 17



### know we have a big pool of both engineers and 18



### attorneys that could be on the working groups. 19



### Okay. So once we form the working 20



### groups, again we will solicit no minations 21



### through Federal Register notices. We'll go 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### through the time commitment in that notice. 1



### At which time, DOE in conjunction with ASRAC 2



### will select the members, again limited to 25 3



### members. At least one full committee 4



### representative and one DOE re presentative. 5



### Once formed, the committee will 6



### select a chair. Each working group will 7



### select a chair. And with that, the chair will 8



### again run the meetings and that kind of thing. 9



### But DOE will be there to support all these 10



### working groups through both a ny federal 11



### employees and contractor support. So we're 12



### going to try to make at least the 13



### administrative part of this easier for 14



### everybody. 15



### Okay. So the working groups. 16



### Just like this meeting the working group 17



### meetings will be open to the public. I thi nk 18



### the major difference you'll see about these 19



### two sets of meetings is that the working group 20



### meeting will be very technical, very in the 21



### weeds, very detailed. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### What we saw with transformers and 1



### I hope to emulate with this process as well is 2



### that those th at are selected for the working 3



### groups could also bring people with them that 4



### may be more technical or may be more legal or 5



### you know whatever it may be. But I guess the 6



### point here is that you could bring more people 7



### in the room and in real time you could have 8



### your really technical experts help out to get 9



### to a better solution set at the end of the 10



### day. 11



### Again, just reiterating, the 12



### expectations of the working group as part of a 13



### negotiated rulemaking will be outlined very 14



### clearly. DOE and the ASRAC represe ntative 15



### will steer these working groups into what the 16



### expectations are at the end of the day. 17



### Some guidelines will have our 18



### general counsel in here to give ethics and all 19



### that. There are legal requirements to be on 20



### the working groups. 21



### And then again t he time commitment 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### is something that we realize we don't all have 1



### free time that's not infinite. So when we 2



### form these working groups, I think it's very 3



### important that we do lay out a finite amount 4



### of time for us to finish up our work. I think 5



### that's ver y important. 6



### And for transformers we had court

7



### ordered deadlines looming. So that was pretty 8



### easy to set the time limit there. But 9



### hopefully we won't have the gun to our head on 10



### the products that we talk about and form 11



### groups around. 12



### The deliberation s. So once we get 13



### a work plan, the working groups themselves 14



### will meet as often as they deem necessary to 15



### get the job done. All the meetings will be 16



### announced in the Federal Register. All the 17



### meetings are public. We'll put them on the 18



### webinar. 19



### And th e working groups will 20



### operate by consensus. And consensus again 21



### this committee will vote on what consensus is. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### The working groups themselves might have a 1



### different idea of what consensus is. So the 2



### first order of business is to actually define 3



### that and work from there. 4



### Again, Roland mentioned in his 5



### opening remarks that if we do task working 6



### groups to do a negotiated rulemaking we should 7



### realize that the Department will continue its 8



### regular process in order to come to a Notice 9



### of Proposed Rulemaking at some point. Should 10



### the negotiations break down and no consensus 11



### is reached, DOE will go forward with its own 12



### proposal. 13



### Transformers is a good example. 14



### We got one out of three. Well, we did propose 15



### rules for all three products. It's just that 16



### only on e of them was the negotiated outcome. 17



### The other two were DOE's own proposals. And 18



### so that same thing holds true for anything we 19



### do here. 20



### So the working group chair will 21



### present any updates on their final consensus 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### determination to ASRAC. The chair doe s not 1



### necessarily have to be the ASRAC 2



### representative. I think you can vote it to be 3



### different if you want. 4



### The working group chair will 5



### present what the majority and minority views 6



### are that the working group worked under when 7



### it presents its results to the full committee. 8



### And then based on that update, ASRAC will 9



### deliberate and can decide to give additional 10



### time. 11



### For example, if the working group 12



### said, hey. We were pretty close. We think we 13



### can get there. Please give us more time. 14



### That's an opti on that this group can decide 15



### upon. 16



### They can vote to accept the 17



### working group's recommendation without change 18



### and then form that recommendation to DOE with 19



### the majority and minority views. Or they 20



### could notify DOE that no recommendation can be 21



### made on t hat particular task either because 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### they didn't reach consensus or majority 1



### consensus. And so they would recommend 2



### nothing there. 3



### How can you participate? And 4



### again the theme here is that I noticed this 5



### group, we have 11. There were 40 applicants. 6



### The re's going to be lots of opportunity for 7



### those of you who are still interested to 8



### participate on the working groups. 9



### When you see these Federal 10



### Register notices, you'll nominate yourself. 11



### You can nominate others. But anyway I think 12



### you'll have to put i n a resume and we will 13



### select working groups based on the material 14



### that is provided to us. 15



### And just again remember, if you 16



### want to participate, it's going to be hard 17



### work. And the time commitment will be a bit 18



### of a lift for some of us. But again we 19



### def initely want as broad a participation as 20



### possible in all of our working groups. 21



### So here's some information about 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### our website. There's my name with my generic 1



### email box. And the docket for this meeting. 2



### That's the overview for the ASRAC operations. 3



### M R. BROOKMAN: Let's see if there 4



### are questions at this point. 5



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: John. 7



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: I have a couple 8



### of questions, John, just to clarify. Any 9



### recommendations that may come from ASRAC, if 10



### DOE adopts, we'll adopt as a proposed rule, 11



### correct? 12



### MR. CYMBALSKY: That's correct. 13



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: And then is 14



### there any time benefit that's gained by going 15



### through an ASRAC process? In other words, 16



### does it allow DOE to move more expeditiously 17



### than otherwise would have been the case? 18



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, it can. 19



### Sure. And like Andrew said though, it's not 20



### necessarily that way. But yes. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: I have a couple 1



### of questions, too. In terms of the ASRAC 2



### participants' involvement in the working 3



### groups, DOE will always

-- DOE is on ASRAC and 4



### DOE will also have a seat on every working 5



### group. And then at least one of us has to be 6



### on every working group. Could it be more than 7



### one of us? 8



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, it could be. 9



### CO

- CHAIR de LASKI: Okay. Is there 10



### an upper limit on how many folks from this 11



### committee? 12



### MR. CYMBALSKY: We didn't set an 13



### upper limit. 14



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Okay. And then 15



### what would be the access to the consulting 16



### department for every rulemaking as a team of 17



### consu ltants who are doing the technical work. 18



### What is the working group's typical access to 19



### the consultants? And what would be their 20



### involvement in a working group's 21



### deliberations? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. CYMBALSKY: I think we're 1



### going to try to use the same model we did for 2



### transformers. And so my expectation is that 3



### we would provide the resources necessary to 4



### get to a good outcome. So I think we'll have 5



### them in the room and some mode of transformers 6



### and hopefully do some real time analysis to 7



### get the job done. 8



### CO

- CHAIR d eLASKI: Just for those 9



### who weren't there, when we did the 10



### transformers, it was the same sort of team of 11



### consultants who were doing

-- who had been 12



### working for DOE for some period of time for 13



### the normal rulemaking process were then 14



### essentially available to the negotiating 15



### committee in real time. 16



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, that's our 17



### expectation is to provide the same level of 18



### support. Hopefully, we'll have enough 19



### resources to spread them around depending on 20



### what the working group situation is. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: John, presumably 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the work principally or almost totally gets 1



### done in the context of actual meetings of the 2



### working group. 3



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I think 4



### what we found with transformers is oftentimes 5



### the models take a while to run. So we would 6



### have mul ti

- day meetings and part of the 7



### meeting would be discussing hey, what about 8



### this and what about that. 9



### And then what we did is we ran 10



### some stuff overnight. And then the next day 11



### we had some answers for some of the more 12



### challenging questions. 13



### But oftent imes everyone had their 14



### laptops and we had manufacturers looking up 15



### information in real time. We had our 16



### consultants doing analysis in real time. And 17



### we found a lot of good real time work being 18



### done at the meetings. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Tom. 20



### MR. COUGHLIN: Where there might 21



### be some work, John, required by some of the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### people behind the scenes and they may not be 1



### there, will we go through the DOE 2



### representative on the working group committee 3



### to make a request that we need somebody to 4



### take a look at this or to do some analyses? 5



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. I think 6



### that's fair. I think everything is on the 7



### table. So if someone on the working group 8



### says, I'd like you to analyze this, the 9



### working group themselves could vote. 10



### I know with transformers there 11



### were some different levels that wanted to be 12



### analyzed that the group themselves voted not 13



### to look at for one reason or another. But I 14



### don't see why that wouldn't be the case. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional 16



### questions? Final questions? 17



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: I had one mo re. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Andrew. 19



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Just time 20



### frame. Do you have a feel for what you think 21



### the typical time frame that a working group 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### would be charged to act within? 1



### MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a good 2



### question. I think it all depends upo n the 3



### product and where DOE already sits in its 4



### process of doing analysis. I'd hate to pin a 5



### number on how long it would be, but we saw 6



### with transformers that was like a gun to the 7



### head was about six months' time, right. We 8



### did from July to February roug hly, so six, 9



### seven, eight months for that one. 10



### But I think a year is probably not 11



### a bad starting point for some things. We're 12



### going to find that there are others that we're 13



### going to want to do quicker. I think it's 14



### going to be very product specific. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Kelley. 16



### MS. KLINE: The examples we've 17



### talked about so far have been in the context 18



### of product

- specific rulemakings. Do you 19



### envision any work groups ever taking on I 20



### guess more crosscutting questions or things 21



### that aren't

-- things where the result is not 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### a rulemaking recommendation? 1



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, I think 2



### commercial equipment labeling is one that 3



### would fit that category. But hopefully there 4



### are others. Yes, I hope there are some 5



### crosscutting ideas that come out of this. 6



### Again, I'd hate to just say here's 7



### five rulemakings. Go do them. I hope there's 8



### a couple other more crosscutting issues that 9



### we bring up. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman. 11



### MR. ECKMAN: I have one, but we'll 12



### save it until later because it will take a 13



### longer discus sion. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good 15



### overview. Additional questions? Final 16



### questions before we move on? 17



### (No response.) 18



### So then let's do that. 19



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. I thought I 20



### would provide a little bit of an overview of 21



### the program, where things ar e today so that it 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### will help the committee maybe focus some of 1



### their thoughts. I'm not getting a response 2



### from my clicker. 3



### (Off the record comments.) 4



### There we go. Got it. Thanks. 5



### This slide just gives you kind of an overview 6



### of the different things we think about in the 7



### program. 8



### Generally speaking, energy savings 9



### is our goal. How we get there can be lots of 10



### different paths. But as this funnel displays 11



### we start with our statutory authority and 12



### there are lots of things I wish we could do. 13



### But lega lly we can't do them. That's why my 14



### lawyer always has my back over here. We start 15



### with the statutory authority. 16



### With that becomes product 17



### coverage. What you've seen recently out of 18



### the program is an expansion of coverage. So 19



### the statute sets some cle ar language on how we 20



### can expand authority to other products. We've 21



### done that with a few different things. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Namely, set

- top boxes, pumps and commercial 1



### fans are the three that come to mind. 2



### And once we expand product 3



### coverage we need to develop a test p rocedure. 4



### Once the test procedure is set, we can then 5



### establish efficiency levels for standards. 6



### Then you have the date of compliance. 7



### And then, of course, at some point 8



### and what you've seen recently is a more of a 9



### focus on enforcing the standards. It 's always 10



### good to have a standard out there. But I 11



### think we found in some cases that if you have 12



### lax enforcement you may not be getting the 13



### energy savings that you previously thought you 14



### were getting. 15



### The program the last couple of 16



### years has been acti vely enforcing its 17



### standards. We just reached a settlement with 18



### a big Asian firm where the settlement was $4.5 19



### million. We'll talk about that in a little 20



### bit. 21



### As Roland mentioned this morning, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### we have about just over 60 products now that 1



### are covered by the program. And these are 2



### known as the covered products. These in total 3



### are responsible for about 90 percent of the 4



### energy use in homes, 60 percent in commercial 5



### buildings and almost 30 percent in industrial 6



### energy consumption. 7



### You can see based on t hose 8



### percentages where the target of opportunity 9



### lies for increased energy savings. I think we 10



### as a group should focus in the areas where we 11



### think there's energy savings potential when we 12



### form these working groups. 13



### In 2009, there were about 113 14



### million homes and 5.4 million commercial 15



### buildings which consumed about 40 quads of 16



### energy. Just over 40 percent of the total in 17



### the U.S. in any given year. 18



### And then finally energy use in 19



### buildings, we spend almost a half of billion 20



### dollars in energy for our bu ildings. So it's 21



### a lot of money. And I think the work of this 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### group can help cut our energy bills as we move 1



### forward. 2



### What the program does, I mentioned 3



### it a little bit on the first slide. But we 4



### establish test procedures and then again the 5



### efficiency metric is very important. Without 6



### it, you can't set a standard. 7



### They need to be carefully 8



### developed because you don't want to have 9



### situations where test procedures could be 10



### gamed or there are loopholes in test 11



### procedures. So it's very important to have 12



### these carefully laid out. 13



### And then once you have the test 14



### procedure, you can establish a standard. 15



### Often times as you see at the bottom, 16



### standards are actually not hard numbers, but 17



### some form of an equation that could vary based 18



### on, say, volume is one. You can just see 19



### little cutouts of what test procedures and 20



### standards look like in the Federal Register. 21



### I spoke a little bit about 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### enforcement. Kind of new for the program. I 1



### think before say 2010, around that time, is 2



### when DOE has began enforcing i ts standards 3



### more rigorously. There's lots of different 4



### actions that a manufacturer must certify its 5



### product. That's one basic enforcement action 6



### is that you didn't certify your product. 7



### And then one of the other actions 8



### which may be more serious is t hat your 9



### product does not conform to the minimum 10



### standards. So we're enforcing both of those 11



### aspects of the program. Again, there's a 12



### little clip about the 4.5 million for four 13



### models that failed to meet our energy 14



### efficiency standards. That was back i n 15



### November. 16



### A few of us asked about what else 17



### we could do besides just negotiate a 18



### rulemaking. So the other thing to remember, 19



### the program works with Energy Star to develop 20



### the test procedures for Energy Star products. 21



### And we also work with EPA to deve lop Energy 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Star Most Efficient. Those are other areas 1



### that possibly there's some topics there. 2



### Generally speaking, the same test 3



### procedures is used for Energy Star as the 4



### covered products. DOE also runs the Energy 5



### Star Verification Program for EPA. So we will 6



### test a bunch of products to see if they meet 7



### the Energy Star criteria. 8



### Since 2010, we've tested over 400 9



### of these. And if we find issues with that, we 10



### refer the product to EPA for action. So DOE 11



### itself does not take the action. EPA does 12



### that. 13



### I mentioned Energy Star Most 14



### Efficient. A fairly new program. Been around 15



### a couple of years. But roughly speaking, this 16



### program targets about five percent of the most 17



### efficient products in any product class and 18



### designates it as Energy Star Most Effic ient. 19



### I think there's about seven to ten products 20



### now that have Most Efficient criteria. 21



### Finally, we work with FTC. And I 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### guess we've probably all seen these yellow 1



### labels by now. But the Energy Guide label, 2



### FTC requires these labels on several, most 3



### residential products. And you could see the 4



### annual energy operating cost that's on these 5



### labels. Again, the DOE test procedure is what 6



### drives the answer for that number. 7



### And then manufacturers file data 8



### reports with FTC. And so a new thing here is 9



### th at we're combining the FTC and DOE 10



### requirement to one submission. 11



### What have we done so far? We 12



### believe that

-- and these are estimates

-- of 13



### all the standards that we've promulgated to 14



### date we think we can get almost 70 quads of 15



### energy savings by 2020. So that's about 70 16



### percent in any given year of national energy 17



### consumption. And by 2030 we think about 120 18



### quads. 19



### It translates to huge dollar 20



### savings. So $900 billion by 2020. And 21



### cumulatively $1.6 trillion through 2030. Big 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### numbers. And again th e carbon dioxide savings 1



### will pretty much track the energy savings. 2



### You can see by 2030 we think about 6.5 billion 3



### metric tons. 4



### Manufacturer benefits. Obviously, 5



### the one big plus for Federal standards is that 6



### the Federal standards preempt the state 7



### sta ndards that might exist. This is something 8



### manufacturers would see as a benefit in that 9



### there's one standard to meet and not a 10



### patchwork of state standards that might be out 11



### there. So I think manufacturers see that as a 12



### benefit. 13



### We think it also create s certainty 14



### in the market. And I think the test 15



### procedures in particular create a level 16



### playing field for all manufacturers to follow. 17



### I think again another plus for this. We 18



### think the program could benefit all the 19



### different players here, the manufactur ers and 20



### the consumers and the environment. 21



### What are we working on? I'm not 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### going to go through the whole list. But this 1



### is something to keep in front of us as we talk 2



### in the afternoon about potential areas of 3



### opportunity. Right here, you can see all t he 4



### different standards, rulemakings that we're 5



### working on currently. A couple of them at the 6



### top we haven't officially kicked off, but we 7



### do have some statutory deadlines coming up in 8



### the future. 9



### You can see all the different 10



### products. This definitely spans the whole 11



### gamut of all the way from commercial equipment 12



### down to say set top boxes. Just a long list. 13



### And then here are the test 14



### procedures we're working on. Again, test 15



### procedures are something that we might think 16



### about as well as we move forwar d. And we have 17



### about 30 of each. They're not necessarily 18



### one
- for

- one. For the most part they are, but 19



### you could see the different stages of where 20



### things are. And I think that might help us 21



### guide some decisions as well. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Typically, if you want to get 1



### s omething done, hopefully we're in a stage of 2



### development where we have enough analysis and 3



### information to push it forward. 4



### That's my overview. At this time, 5



### I will take some questions about the program, 6



### if anybody has any. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. John. 8



### MR. CASKEY: As you mentioned, 9



### these are the products that are under review 10



### of consideration. I see things like lighting 11



### and motors and things that are like one device 12



### in itself. Yet there are other components of 13



### the motor systems. And what is DOE doin g 14



### these days relative to looking at the system's 15



### efficiency where you've got lights and having 16



### the most efficient light in the world doesn't 17



### matter that much if it's on 24/7 and I only 18



### need it on one hour a day? 19



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. Of course, 20



### that wo uld be product specific. And then 21



### there are some legal requirements for each 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### product that are in the statute that tells us 1



### what the metric is. Unfortunately, for a lot 2



### of things, our hands are tied in terms of 3



### looking at systems' approach. 4



### But we've h eard loud and clear 5



### from a lot of folks that system efficiency is 6



### something we should consider. And I think is 7



### actually a good topic to bring up definitely. 8



### We looked at it more with

-- I 9



### know we've had a couple of public meetings 10



### last week about pumps and fans. And obviously 11



### the system there, pumps in particular, was a 12



### big part of the conversation. Yes, we did 13



### talk extensively about that. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, John. Please. 15



### MR. CASKEY: This is a real 16



### curiosity question. But you periodically talk 17



### about the bureaucracy within DOE and your 18



### hands being tied and things like that. I 19



### mean, is it possible for this group? If we 20



### come up and say, "Oh my gosh. Systems is the 21



### biggest thing, the most important thing for 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### energy efficiency for the next 20 year s," I 1



### mean are we able to come up with a 2



### recommendation that would say we should 3



### collectively go to Congress and try and alter 4



### whether your hands are tied or aren't tied? 5



### MR. COHEN: That brings a whole 6



### different set of bureaucracies. What we can 7



### do

-- By the way, my name is Dan Cohen. I'm 8



### the Assistant General Counsel for DOE, 9



### responsible for the appliance programs. Oh, 10



### sorry. My name is Dan Cohen. I'm a lawyer 11



### here in the General Counsel's office at DOE. 12



### We as a federal agency are 13



### somewhat constr ained in terms of our making a 14



### proposal to Congress for any legislative 15



### change in the statute. We can't on our own do 16



### that. There's a whole process for developing 17



### legislative proposals and we need approval. 18



### It has to be an administration wide thing to 19



### d o. 20



### We can't also encourage anybody to 21



### go to Congress on our behalf. That would be 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### lobbying which is actually a criminal 1



### violation. So no one here, no federal 2



### employee, is going to want to go down a 3



### potentially criminal route. 4



### But this is certainly a 5



### recommendation the committee could make to the 6



### Department to seek a change in our legislative 7



### authority. And we would have to go through 8



### the process of getting that approval to submit 9



### that change to Congress. 10



### And to the extent that anybody 11



### decides they think that's a good idea and they 12



### on their own decide they want to go to 13



### Congress individually or as part of some 14



### organized group, they can certainly do that. 15



### We won't take any position on it. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 17



### MR. COUSINS: A matter of 18



### clarificat ion. I'm looking at this slide that 19



### is up there now and procedures under 20



### development, it says, "Procedures are 21



### ongoing." And I'm thinking about exactly do 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### we mean by the term "ongoing." 1



### What I mean is I know there are 2



### procedures that exist now for not all of these 3



### areas. But I see there are things in various 4



### stages. I look at luminaries, for example, 5



### the last one on the list. RFI, I'm not sure 6



### what that RFI means. So maybe some 7



### clarification around what we're saying here. 8



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. I know of 9



### glazed over that, didn't I? When I said 10



### "ongoing" it means we're actively working on 11



### it. It doesn't mean that there's not a test 12



### procedure in place already for a product 13



### that's not on this list. That's the 14



### difference between ongoing and somethin g 15



### that's already existing. But we're just now 16



### working on an update or a new one. 17



### The stages. A NOPR is a Notice of 18



### Proposed Rulemaking. So we're working on 19



### putting that out. An SNOPR is a Supplemental 20



### notice. So that generally means we've already 21



### pu t out a notice of proposed rulemaking. We 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### took comment. We had enough comment where we 1



### think we can't go directly to a final rule on. 2



### So that's what an SNOPR is. 3



### A framework document precedes all 4



### of that work. So that just scopes out what 5



### the market, what the rule, what will be 6



### included in the rule. 7



### An RFI is a request for 8



### information. So for luminaries for example we 9



### put out an RFI that just asks a whole bunch of 10



### questions. And this basically dealt with 11



### John's questions about systems efficiency f or 12



### lighting. That is what that one was about. 13



### I think that describes all of them 14



### up there. Yes. And then there's a 15



### preliminary analysis which comes out after the 16



### framework, but before the NOPR and that 17



### essentially lays out the first set of numbers 18



### you 'll see would go into a potential proposal. 19



### That would be the other. 20



### I think we have some on the 21



### previous slide. Yes. And NOPR and 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### determination. We can get to a point where we 1



### can make a determination that no standard will 2



### be proposed. So that's wh at that means. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: This is the general 4



### sequence. 5



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Top to bottom. 7



### MR. CYMBALSKY: No, no. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: No? 9



### MR. CYMBALSKY: No, framework 10



### comes before that. 11



### MR. COHEN: Right. The general 12



### sequenc e is framework followed by an 13



### opportunity for comment on the framework, 14



### preliminary analysis that takes the results of 15



### the framework and the comment, develops sort 16



### of our initial thought of analyses and where 17



### the efficiencies break down in terms of 18



### cutoffs . Again an opportunity for comment. 19



### Then a proposed rule. Opportunity for 20



### comment. Final rule. 21



### To one of the other questions, I 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### thought it was John Mandyck asked about speed 1



### potentially. At least in the transformer 2



### negotiation, what we saw was that essentially 3



### the work that we would do in the preliminary 4



### analysis and framework stages sort of occurred 5



### in the context of the negotiation. 6



### We didn't go through those earlier 7



### processes. We just issued a proposed rule 8



### based on all the work that was done. That's 9



### why there could be some efficiencies gained in 10



### terms of timing. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Other questions 12



### here? Yes, Andrew. 13



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: I just want to 14



### comment on the process and sort of how I have 15



### -- what my experience has been in terms of 16



### negoti ating and where that's sort of worked in 17



### this schematic. I think one of the things 18



### that we have to keep in mind as anything 19



### advances at least not so much for the 20



### crosscutting topics but for something that is 21



### a standard rulemaking is that rules still have 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### to meet legal muster. So whatever our working 1



### committee develops and then advises to ASRAC, 2



### these folks have to then take it and it has to 3



### meet legal muster. It has to be something 4



### that they can propose under the statute that 5



### meets their legal criteria. 6



### One of the things that we've 7



### experienced is that from an efficiency 8



### advocate sitting where we sit is that the time 9



### that often is a good time to sit down and to 10



### discuss things is when the preliminary 11



### analysis has been published because it gives 12



### us who are advocates who aren't making these 13



### things and don't have the engineering data, 14



### what it costs to make these things more 15



### efficient. We don't have all the data that a 16



### manufacturer might have or a retailed might 17



### have to know how does this work in the 18



### marketpl ace. 19



### When we see something that's been 20



### published by the Department, then we have data 21



### on which to make some judgments in addition to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### whatever bring to the table previously. So we 1



### found that the publication of the PTSD creates 2



### an opportunity for discussi on on a private 3



### basis. And I would think in this context, 4



### too. 5



### That said, what goes

-- The 6



### quality of the PTSD analysis is critical, 7



### right. If people can't agree that that's a 8



### good analysis, then you'll have a hard time 9



### having a discussion. There prob ably is work 10



### to happen before there is so that what's 11



### coming out of the PTSD that the Department has 12



### published is something that stakeholders can 13



### have a good discussion around. "I don't 14



### believe it" or "I believe it." Then where are 15



### you could be quite a d ifficult process. 16



### I think once, in my experience, 17



### the Department has published a NOPR it's 18



### pretty hard to have a fruitful discussion 19



### because positions tend to lock down. Either "I 20



### got what I wanted" or "I got most of what I 21



### wanted" or "Or I didn't." Tha t's how I would 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### think about this progressing is it's valuable 1



### to have discussion once there is a framework 2



### out there or pre

- framework. Hard to kind of 3



### come to some sort of recommendation from an 4



### advocate's perspective. 5



### And then coming to a 6



### recommendatio n once that PTSD has been 7



### published or that preliminary analysis that's 8



### labeled up there to me strikes me as being the 9



### time where the bulk of a working group's 10



### action would happen. 11



### And then I also wanted to comment 12



### on the earlier discussion about legisla tive 13



### changes because I think that's also an 14



### important feature. When we've done private 15



### negotiations, often we've tried to put more 16



### moving parts on the table. In a negotiation 17



### if you get more moving parts going sometimes 18



### that could be a way to get to yes if we can 19



### find our ways to meet the party's needs, 20



### multiple objectives are on the table. 21



### So we've included things in prior 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### agreements that have been outside the 1



### Department's jurisdiction, things like 2



### recommendations for tax incentives, 3



### recommendations fo r utility programs. So 4



### things that are outside the jurisdiction of 5



### the Department directly. 6



### And also things that may be 7



### somewhat in your jurisdiction, but not the 8



### standards program jurisdiction. For example, 9



### new Energy Star levels have been part of a 10



### prior private negotiations. We can move the 11



### standard to here, but we can move Energy Start 12



### to there and we think that by Energy Star to 13



### drive to somebody savings if the objective is 14



### energy savings, cost of energy savings. We can 15



### get part of that shifting Energy Star in 16



### concert with the standards. 17



### So I guess the question to the 18



### Department is if a working group wanted to get 19



### into those kinds of discussions about things 20



### like tax incentives that clearly are not in 21



### your jurisdiction how would that work. Is 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### t hat something that would be out of bounds? 1



### Or is that something that might be in bounds 2



### and a working group discussion or? 3



### MR. COHEN: That gets back to what 4



### I think I said before, Andrew. Obviously, 5



### anything can be discussed. What we can do 6



### with it i s a different question. So if the 7



### ASRAC

-- Whatever the working group 8



### recommendation is up to the full ASRAC and the 9



### ASRAC wants to make a recommendation to the 10



### Department to seek a change in its legislative 11



### authority, that's a recommendation that can be 12



### made to us. We'd have to go through a process 13



### if we wanted to, in fact, do that to develop a 14



### proposal and get approval to submit that 15



### proposal to Congress. We couldn't just take 16



### that and seek to go to Congress and get it 17



### changed. 18



### If the working group i s going to 19



### have that discussion and you decide this is a 20



### really good idea and you want to go pursue it 21



### yourself, that's fine. You can go do that. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### We just wouldn't take any position on it. We 1



### couldn't. 2



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: I guess a 3



### scenario I could see imaging some tension 4



### would be the working group wanted one of your 5



### consultants to model something that was a 6



### modeling about

-- Or if we change Energy Star 7



### to this level and assume that

-- consumers by 8



### Energy Star, would that be hard for you to do 9



### because i t's not sort of your

-- He's shaking 10



### his head like you think you could. 11



### MR. COHEN: Yes, I think we could 12



### probably do the modeling. I guess the 13



### question is whether the model was robust 14



### enough to do that kind of work. 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: It is. I could be 16



### done. We could definitely model it. 17



### Obviously, with the

-- This is Ashley

-- level 18



### setting we would have to engage EPA pretty 19



### early on to actually change the Energy Star 20



### level. We work with them pretty closely with 21



### Energy Star program. So I would say that's 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### definitely something that could be considered 1



### here. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: John. 3



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Maybe just a 4



### follow

- on question there. So in past private 5



### negotiations there will be a signatory 6



### document that we agree to do X, Y or Z. And 7



### under Andr ew's scenario if the working group 8



### decided to pursue ancillary issues in tandem 9



### with appliance standards such as

-- let's just 10



### pick tax credits and that wanted to be 11



### memorialized. Could that be done absent a DOE 12



### signature? 13



### MR. COHEN: We would probably want 14



### to talk about it first before we created some 15



### document. My sense of it just off the top 16



### without particular facts is that we would 17



### probably ask you not to put that into a 18



### recommendation to the Department. 19



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Would it be 20



### okay separate ly for members of the working 21



### group to privately outside of DOE come to some 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### consensus? 1



### MR. COHEN: Yes. Just to draw 2



### that distinction, we wouldn't

-- I think we 3



### would have a problem with a document that came 4



### to us that said that you all agree to do 5



### som ething that you know we can't do. And you 6



### put that in the recommendation to us. 7



### But on the other hand if you all 8



### on the outside on own separately, you're free 9



### agents. You can do whatever you'd like to do. 10



### We won't encourage you to do that. We can't 11



### e ncourage you to do that. 12



### But you can make whatever choices 13



### you want to make. You don't give up your 14



### rights just by walking through the door. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Tom. 16



### MR. ECKMAN: In the rulemaking 17



### process, there is always a description of a 18



### non regulator y option. So how far can

-- this 19



### is kind of what we're talking about here is 20



### non regulatory options to either Energy Star 21



### or some other approach to get there besides or 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### getting all the way with the rulemaking that 1



### you get this far with the standard and th en 2



### this far with something else. 3



### Is that in keeping with what 4



### you're saying there? We could propose it 5



### there, but not to

-- I mean I don't know where 6



### the boundary is. 7



### MR. COHEN: Obviously, if it's 8



### something like Energy Star, we have statutory 9



### -- ther e's a whole statutory authority that 10



### exists for that. That's a different thing. 11



### For instance, there was some thought in the 12



### context of set top boxes, right. Andrew was 13



### working with the manufacturers and the cable 14



### companies. That was an entirely private 15



### negotiation that was going on there and they 16



### were trying to work out a non regulatory 17



### option to present to us. 18



### And that was fine. They went 19



### through that process. It ultimately didn't 20



### come to fruition. And we would have taken a 21



### look at that. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### I took the question from both 1



### Andrew and John as being something about a 2



### change in our authority. 3



### MR. ECKMAN: Right. I wasn't 4



### going there. There was a package deal that 5



### included a non regulatory component that may 6



### or may not involve what you can do directly. 7



### MR. COHEN: Right. That's right. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional 9



### questions here? Yes, John. 10



### MR. CASKEY: John Caskey. So when 11



### we were doing the transformer negotiated 12



### rulemaking, I guess we were sort of under the 13



### guidance of I think it's ERAC. Is that group 14



### still in existence? So we're essentially 15



### taking over some of the things that they did 16



### in the past. 17



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, transformers 18



### killed ERAC. 19



### (Laughter.) 20



### That put them over the edge. 21



### MR. CASKEY: Let's see. So my 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### next question is that in the transformer stuff 1



### DOE informed us of what the rules were like I 2



### think it's your obligation to pick something 3



### to the effect of the highest technologically 4



### feasible efficiency that's proven to be cost 5



### effective or something like that. 6



### Are you going to share? Does 7



### everybody here already know what those things 8



### are? Or are you going to share them with us 9



### as sort of a starting point for our work? 10



### MR. CYMBALSKY: I think for the 11



### working groups that's when that level of 12



### detail will be necessary. And th at will 13



### describe what the EPCA 7 factors are. 14



### But the consensus agreement 15



### itself, the ones that were before us, wouldn't 16



### necessarily always be the point that the 17



### Department would pick. That's the whole point 18



### with the negotiated rulemaking. You don't 19



### ha ve to get to the outcome that the Department 20



### would pick by itself. 21



### MR. COHEN: Otherwise it has meet 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the statutory obligation. 1



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Exactly. 2



### MR. COHEN: Why don't I just 3



### describe just generally what John is asking 4



### about which is our basic statutory obligation 5



### is to come up with a standard. This is just 6



### in the standards world. We're not talking 7



### about labeling or the enforcement or 8



### certification 9



### To develop a standard which 10



### maximizes the energy efficiency that the 11



### Secretary determines is e conomically justified 12



### and technologically feasible. And then there 13



### are seven criteria for economic justification 14



### which range from considering manufacturing 15



### impacts, life cycle costs, payback periods, 16



### environmental impacts. 17



### We monetize all of those. The way 18



### we do our analysis, we monetize all those 19



### different factors. And we determine the 20



### maximum technologically feasible efficiency 21



### level and weigh those monetized factors for 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### economic justification to calculate an overall 1



### net present value. And when we g et to the 2



### place where we hit the first positive net 3



### present value, that's where we have determined 4



### that we have maximized the energy efficiency 5



### that is technologically feasible and 6



### economically justified. 7



### That's the basic structure for how 8



### we set it up. The consensus would be looking 9



### at those seven factors, the payback periods, 10



### the life cycle costs and the analysis that we 11



### do and how we weigh out all those factors. 12



### The seventh of the seven factors 13



### is other factors as considered by the 14



### Secretary which t aken into account different 15



### types of issues. For instance, again using 16



### the transformer example we keep going back to, 17



### one of the main factors there which wasn't 18



### monetizable necessarily was the mix of steel 19



### that gets used in the core of a transformer 20



### and w here the line is between using grain

21



### oriented steels and going to amorphous steels. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### And John can give you chapter and verse on 1



### the engineering of all of that. 2



### MR. CYMBALSKY: It's all behind 3



### us. 4



### MR. COHEN: It's all behind us 5



### now. Yes. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN : Other questions 7



### here? Yes, Tim. 8



### MR. CASSIDY: Hi, Tim Cassidy. 9



### Looking at the list of test procedures, I was 10



### thinking about the working groups. I assume 11



### that each of these could have a working group. 12



### It could I guess. I don't know what the plan 13



### is. 14



### But I'm looking at it like ceiling 15



### fans and ceiling fan lighting kits at the 16



### bottom of the list. And then I see motors on 17



### the list and I see luminaries and lighting 18



### systems. 19



### Is there any thought about how 20



### these different working groups might work 21



### together? Or are they just completely 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### independently making rules and standards 1



### because a ceiling fan obviously is a motor and 2



### a lighting kit? 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley for 4



### DOE. So what you see here is a list of 5



### products that we are required by sta tute at 6



### least for most of these. Or we have elected 7



### to do individual product test procedures. 8



### Yes, a motor is part of a ceiling fan, but we 9



### have a separate test procedure for the ceiling 10



### fan and for the motor. 11



### Now that doesn't ever preclude a 12



### working g roup from taking up multiple ideas 13



### and discussing them, whether it be a test 14



### procedure or standards or whatever and working 15



### together. But the outcome for DOE would 16



### probably have to be separate tests procedures 17



### unless it's like a new product of a system or 18



### something like that. Does that make sense? 19



### MR. CASSIDY: It does. It seems 20



### it could lead to some conflicts. I'm just 21



### again seeking that if this committee works 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### really well that you would have a more 1



### holistic approach maybe. 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: That's o ne idea as 3



### to how we could tackle this definitely. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Kelley. 5



### MS. KLINE: The question about the 6



### holistic approach just made me think. Is 7



### there anything else that DOE has on its radar 8



### screen that would be more of a crosscutting 9



### rulem aking? I'm thinking like at one point 10



### there was discussion about maybe another 11



### certification rulemaking or something like 12



### that. 13



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. I 14



### think this afternoon when we go to brainstorm 15



### ideas. The Department has said on the record 16



### th at they are going to do another 17



### certification and compliance and enforcement 18



### rulemaking for a variety of different 19



### provisions as part of that

-- You can see the 20



### list in the beginning that John had as part of 21



### that whether it be laboratory accreditation or 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### t esting programs or commercial certification. 1



### All of those would be on the table for us to 2



### discuss this afternoon which would be more 3



### crosscutting type issues. Yes, absolutely. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ken. 5



### MR. PETERSON: More of a process 6



### question. Is this co mmittee working simply 7



### off of when we get working group 8



### recommendations a simple majority? 9



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Doug passed me 10



### this note. And he said, "Do you want to 11



### discuss how to define consensus now?" 12



### MR. PETERSON: That was the second 13



### part of my quest ion. 14



### MR. CYMBALSKY: It was on the list 15



### of our things to do. That was our first real 16



### action item to tackle. But if there are no 17



### more questions on this content we can move 18



### right to that before lunch. That's fine by me. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking th at 20



### maybe it would be useful to describe

-- Well, 21



### you tell me. Would it be useful to describe 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### what happened in the transformers rule, the 1



### set of definitions? Or would you like to go 2



### in a different direction with that? 3



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, we definitely 4



### want to go in a somewhat different direction I 5



### think. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve has a 7



### question. 8



### MR. CYMBALSKY: We transformed 9



### from

-- 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, go ahead. 11



### MR. GORDON: Before we can even 12



### talk about consensus, do we first have to talk 13



### about q uorum? I mean there are 11 of us. And 14



### how many of us constitutes a sufficient 15



### quantity to move forward even before we talk 16



### consensus? What is a quorum? 17



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I think we 18



### can define all that right here. For 19



### transformers, everyone was there all the time. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 21



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Obligation for the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### working group. For this group, I mean we kept 1



### the number small just for that reason that I 2



### think it's a lot easier to get 11 of us and 3



### I'm not one of the us thankfully. But 11 of 4



### you at the table or on the phone to make that 5



### quorum be all of us. 6



### As for what consensus is, I think 7



### that's something we should discuss. But 8



### quorum we can talk about it, but my hope was 9



### that all of us would be there on the phone or 10



### at the table. An d we would arrange our 11



### meetings such that that would happen. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: And even if a 13



### member were for example in absentia that that 14



### member could find a way to speak. 15



### MR. CYMBALSKY: They could send a 16



### delegate. 17



### MR. COHEN: Actually, I would have 18



### t o check that. I don't think a delegate could 19



### vote. I think just the members. They can be 20



### there to represent the person, but I don't 21



### think they can vote. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Could a member be 1



### on the phone and say aye or nay? 2



### MR. COHEN: Yes. 3



### MR. BROOKMA N: Okay. 4



### Yes, Dan. 5



### MR. COHEN: I was going to

-- 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: It seems to me 8



### that you want to define quorum something short 9



### of having everybody there every time. It just 10



### seems to me that

-- 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Practically 12



### speaking. 13



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: From a 14



### practical point of view, if I'm gone for six 15



### months for some reason or another. 16



### MR. ECKMAN: Or somebody is ill or 17



### -- 18



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Yes. I think 19



### from a practical point of view 100 percent you 20



### won't be able t o make decisions without having 21



### to have everybody there. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Would you suggest 1



### something, Andrew, as a way of moving this 2



### forward? 3



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Steve, you've 4



### been involved in committee. What do other 5



### people think? I mean I would thin k some sort 6



### of super majority as a quorum. But I don't 7



### know what that number is. Is it three

8



### fourths? Is it

-- 9



### MR. COUSINS: Steve Cousins. 10



### Since we know how many we have

-- we have 11 11



### of us

-- we could define that by a number like 12



### nine for example. Nine or more. 13



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Although there 14



### is the possibility as this goes forward that 15



### we would have vacancies on the committee 16



### either because of a resignation or because 17



### someone is termed up and DOE hasn't filled the 18



### slot. So there may be

-- You could do it 19



### either way, but there is a possibility of 20



### vacancies on the committee. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: John. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. CASKEY: Just to throw a 1



### number out, I mean as far as I know 99 percent 2



### of the organizations I'm involved with they 3



### use something like 50 percen t. A minimum of 4



### 50 percent to establish a quorum. So that may 5



### be sort of weak for what we're trying to 6



### accomplish here. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: So if it were more 8



### like six or something like that, then that 9



### relates to what you would establish as 10



### consensus wheth er that's everybody in the room 11



### saying aye or whether it's a majority or a 12



### super majority, right. If you were going to 13



### go with some sort of a majority voting scheme, 14



### if you only had six persons and you split 15



### three by three that wouldn't work. 16



### Ashley, go ahead. No. 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: You always need 18



### the plus one, right? 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. It is to me 20



### compelling that you could have a member 21



### calling in, for example, to participate in 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that decision making process. So that gives 1



### you a little more degrees of freedom. 2



### John. 3



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: We could 4



### consider 75 percent quorum which would be 5



### eight. And then a majority of the eight. And 6



### I guess if you get to four

- four that means 7



### there's no consensus. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And so how 9



### did the consensus rule work

-- did you say 10



### that

-- in the transformer rule? 11



### MR. COHEN: In that case the 12



### committee decided that it was unanimity of 13



### those members who were at that meeting. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: The Federal 15



### Advisory Committees have evolved a lot since 16



### I've done work in them over the span of these 17



### 20 years. And this seems to provide a lot of 18



### flexibility. Very typically the standard for 19



### negotiated rulemaking historically has been 20



### just that where every person that is a member 21



### needs to say aye. I can live with t his to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### create a consensus recommendation. But you 1



### all have the opportunity to do it any way you 2



### want to do it. 3



### John. 4



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Let's remember 5



### there are two levels. So it's the level of 6



### which this committee will determine consensus. 7



### And then each working group will have its 8



### authority to determine how they want to define 9



### consensus as well. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 11



### Andrew. 12



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: That strikes me 13



### as sort of a crucial point. It's the folks 14



### who are the stakeholders on a given topic w ho 15



### will have to work that through in the working 16



### group. And in a sense we're here to bless it, 17



### right. 18



### To me I think the strawman that 19



### you opted for which is that 75 percent for 20



### quorum and then a majority of those who show 21



### up. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### I would add to that two t houghts. 1



### One is that there should be a commitment to 2



### make available participation by phone. That 3



### should be a rule so that's available to 4



### anybody who chooses to do it. 5



### Then the second thing I would say 6



### is that whenever the vote is should be 7



### conveyed to the Department. So if it is a 8



### split vote, they know. Did you guys decided 9



### based on 4

- 3 or was it 7

- 0? 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And the 11



### committee is composed

-- Go ahead. Ashley, go 12



### ahead. 13



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I was just going 14



### to say that I think one of the requirements is 15



### from the working group that (a) the working 16



### group reports to ASRAC the vote and then (b) 17



### an explanation of the majority and the 18



### minority views as well as that's what we would 19



### do to DOE so you can see the vote and why, 20



### both sides. 21



### MR. BROO KMAN: Okay. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Yes, Ken. 1



### MR. PETERSON: Just so we aren't 2



### confusing things, we're really talking about 3



### consensus at the working group level and a 4



### majority as ASRAC level, right? I mean in the 5



### presentation earlier that's the way it was 6



### given to us. I me an the working groups need 7



### to reach consensus and consensus is a lot more 8



### than a quorum and a vote. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 10



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: I think the 11



### working group can define that. The working 12



### group could define the consensus as 50 percent 13



### as well or some other number. 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We are trying to 15



### define what quorum and consensus is for ASRAC, 16



### for us. How we're going to make 17



### recommendations to DOE. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: What I've heard so 19



### far is that John suggests that a quorum be 75 20



### percent or eigh t. And that the decision 21



### making rule for ASRAC would be a majority vote 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### among those present. A quorum of eight being 1



### the minimum. 2



### Tom? Others? David? 3



### DR. HUNGERFORD: Majority vote 4



### isn't consensus. I mean I suppose we could 5



### define it as such, but it really violates the 6



### idea behind the word. The pure idea of 7



### consensus is obviously there's no 8



### disagreement. 9



### But as a practical form of 10



### decision making, there's always some need to 11



### prevent a blocking vote from one person. So 12



### it seems more practical th at if we're going to 13



### call it consensus or required to call it 14



### consensus, that it be something better than 15



### majority vote. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Are you required to 17



### call it consensus? 18



### DR. HUNGERFORD: It's unanimity 19



### minus one. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: It is defined as 21



### consensus. Okay. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### DR. HUNGERFORD: I'm just a person 1



### not torturing language too far. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 3



### Tom. 4



### MR. ECKMAN: I'm just doing the 5



### quick math and if you had eight and five voted 6



### in favor that's less than half of the group 7



### voting in favor . So it seems like that's not 8



### quite consensus even though some are absent 9



### the vote. 10



### That still doesn't get us anywhere 11



### near the majority. So some other super 12



### majority of that so we could at least get six 13



### people out of the

-- You know, a fair number 14



### out of the eight. Then we're representing at 15



### least half of the constituents of the ASRAC 16



### committee itself is a little higher hurdle. 17



### But given that we can vote by 18



### phone or some other way, maybe even by proxy 19



### with another member, so that we could fulfill 20



### t he obligation of being around the table to 21



### discuss it. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 1



### Dan. 2



### MR. COHEN: One other thought to 3



### throw out and this came up in the transformer 4



### context as well was that some people thought 5



### that there was a potential for that they migh t 6



### not be able to vote yes, but they didn't want 7



### to vote no. There was the ability to abstain 8



### and that didn't prevent a unanimous vote. So 9



### that's an option you might want to think about 10



### as well. 11



### DR. HUNGERFORD: That's typically 12



### called standing aside in consensus decision 13



### making. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, John. 15



### MR. CASKEY: So far from what I've 16



### heard, certainly I'm happy to support the 75 17



### percent for the establishment of a quorum. 18



### Again, most of my groups are 50 percent. But 19



### 75 percent is fine. And I c an live with that, 20



### if you will. 21



### To me, another group that I'm 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### involved with actually did define consensus 1



### something to the effect that the goal of the 2



### group was to reach unanimity in their 3



### decisions. But if they could not do that, 4



### that they needed to ac hieve at least a super 5



### majority which was defined as a 75 percent of 6



### those people that were available and voting on 7



### that particular topic. 8



### That seemed to work pretty well. 9



### Ninety percent of the time everybody is 10



### agreeing on it and then the case where you 11



### have one or two people that have difficulty, 12



### they get to express their point of view. And 13



### then you basically take a vote. As long as 75 14



### percent of the ones in attendance vote in 15



### favor of it, then it can be passed onto the 16



### next level. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ad ditional comments 18



### on this? Tom, yes. 19



### MR. COUGHLIN: Yes, Tom Coughlin. 20



### It looks like if we vote on this today we'll 21



### be earning our keep. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think you 1



### need to do that today necessarily. Oh, you 2



### actually do. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: This afternoon. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I see. 5



### Okay. 6



### MR. COUGHLIN: I asked that 7



### question because I wondered if that would 8



### happen today. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Glad we 10



### clarified that. Tom, go ahead. 11



### MR. COUGHLIN: Do we get it in 12



### writing so we can view i t before we vote on 13



### it? 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: I'm sure we could 15



### write it up, yes. 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Over lunch. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Over lunch, yes. 18



### MR. COUGHLIN: Okay. 19



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Lunch is always a 20



### good

-- When people get hungry, they

-- 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Kelley, go ahead 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### please. 1



### MS. KLINE: This is for

-- These 2



### will be the ground rules for this group that 3



### we're not touching the work group. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. 5



### MS. KLINE: Okay. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: So additional 7



### comments or thoughts? I'm about to re state 8



### what's on the table. Additional thoughts or 9



### comments? 10



### (No verbal response.) 11



### What's on the table is a quorum 12



### would be 75 percent of the members of the 13



### committee which would be eight. And that to 14



### establish consensus in this case, it would be 15



### 75 p ercent of those in attendance. That's the 16



### way I guess John said it. 17



### Yes, Kent. 18



### MR. PETERSON: Just to be clear is 19



### it 75 percent of those in attendance or 20



### casting a vote? 21



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: I think it 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### would be casting a vote. I mean if you're on 1



### th e phone or. 2



### MR. PETERSON: It was just 3



### mentioned earlier someone may decide they want 4



### to abstain from the vote. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Good point. 6



### MR. CASKEY: For the official 7



### policy that we deal with, basically it's those 8



### that are voting. So the abstains are not 9



### counted basically. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I think 11



### that's a good clarification. Seventy

- five 12



### percent of those casting a vote. Okay. 13



### Yes, Andrew. 14



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Just to pause 15



### on that for a moment. That means if I'm there 16



### and I'm part of a quorum and we're just at 17



### quorum, I can't abstain without the whole 18



### meeting being off. That removes the 19



### possibility that if you're on the cusp you 20



### could lose the option of abstaining without 21



### scrubbing the whole meeting. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. CASKEY: I don't think that's 1



### true. Once quorum is established, the meeting 2



### has a quorum. 3



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Okay. 4



### MR. CASKEY: And then when you 5



### take a vote after that and transact business, 6



### not all of those people that were needed to 7



### establish a quorum have to vote. 8



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Okay. 9



### MR. CASKEY: They can abstain. I 10



### mean that's an official response. 11



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Yes. 12



### MR. CASKEY: You participated. 13



### You just didn't vote yes or no. 14



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Once a quorum 15



### is established, the meeting is called and i t's 16



### in order until it's adjourned. 17



### MR. CASKEY: Right. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 19



### thoughts on this? 20



### (No verbal response.) 21



### So we've also heard from Tom that 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### we'd like to see it written up. I don't think 1



### we want to take final action on that ri ght 2



### now. Maybe we do that immediately after 3



### lunch. Good. I guess you're moving towards 4



### making your first decision. 5



### Are there other things that we 6



### should try and do before we go to lunch? It's 7



### almost time. 8



### John. 9



### MR. CASKEY: I'm not sure what's 10



### dr iving this, but for whatever reason my gut 11



### feeling is that if we are this advisory group 12



### that we should really provide guidance to the 13



### working groups. And I think it just for me 14



### personally feels a little bit weird letting 15



### the working group decide their ow n rules 16



### relative to quorum or consensus and things 17



### like that. 18



### It seems like we would sort of 19



### adopt one for the steering group and then that 20



### would be utilized for the working groups. 21



### That's just one of my ideas. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Kelley. 1



### MS. KLINE: Yes , I agree with 2



### that. And I guess I had one question in 3



### thinking through that. I'm wondering what the 4



### distribution for transformers. Was it 5



### basically all interested parties who wanted a 6



### seat at the table got a seat at the table? 7



### And I think that has som e bearing on it 8



### whether it's all comers versus a selected 9



### committee in terms of what consensus would be. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Dan. 11



### MR. COHEN: With the committee on 12



### transformers, there's a limitation. We're 13



### also functioning on something called the 14



### Negotiate d Rulemaking Act which has a 15



### limitation of 25 members for doing a 16



### negotiated rulemaking. So there's a 17



### limitation for the number of people on the 18



### committee. 19



### That said, we tried to ensure that 20



### the committee was and I think we did achieve a 21



### committee that balanced by having a membership 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### of all the various interests. So some 1



### interested parties were represented by other 2



### interested parties. The attempt was though to 3



### have every interest represented. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew. 5



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: I would say 6



### th at this committee could provide some 7



### guidance, but I don't think we can set the 8



### rules. And in part that's because we don't 9



### know what the makeup of those working 10



### committees are going to be. 11



### Department ultimately has the 12



### final say of what that makeup is. So it may 13



### turn out to be that everybody on the committee 14



### -- this isn't going to happen. But it could 15



### be all appliance manufacturers and no one from 16



### the communities that I work with. 17



### MS. KLINE: Or visa versa. 18



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Right. Or visa 19



### versa. I'm just saying we don't control that. 20



### And since we don't control that, I don't 21



### think we should set the decision rule. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Because I might want a different decision rule 1



### if I'm one of 25 and I don't see anybody else 2



### who I consider to be in my caucus. Then I see 3



### if I'm half that's in my caucus. 4



### MR. COHEN: Just to be clear, that 5



### shouldn't happen because we have an obligation 6



### to make sure that the committee is balanced. 7



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Also don't know 8



### exactly how you're going to balance is. And 9



### the b alance is going to

-- I think in the case 10



### of transformers we had four or five different 11



### caucuses so to speak or interests that were 12



### represented who had varying interests. You 13



### had manufacturers. You had utility companies. 14



### You had suppliers of materials t o 15



### manufacture. You had efficiency advocates. 16



### So you had quite a

-- Not everybody would have 17



### been comfortable with the rules that we're 18



### going to invoke for this committee. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: John. 20



### MR. CYMBALSKY: I was just going 21



### to note that remember at least one of you all 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### will be on the working group committee. I'm 1



### not saying you can impose your will, but I 2



### think you could bring to the working group 3



### what ASRAC's preference is how they define 4



### consensus. 5



### But I agree with what was just 6



### said. I don't th ink you want to have a rule 7



### hard and fast right now about what the working 8



### group should decide because I think it's 9



### important. Each product will have a different 10



### makeup of the group. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: John. 12



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: I'm fine with 13



### that. I would just to find a way to 14



### memorialize it that each time a working group 15



### is chartered that part of the standard work be 16



### an explanation for how ASRAC has defined 17



### consensus at this level as a guidepost out 18



### there. And then obviously the working group 19



### is free to do what they think they can do. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Tom. 21



### MR. COUGHLIN: Tom Coughlin. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Maybe that's our first working group not to 1



### labor it, but to provide a guideline to the 2



### chairs for these working groups. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other 4



### thoughts at t his point? 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's 6



### what we're here for, right. I think that's 7



### our job, not a working group's job. But 8



### that's what we would do. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Those are all 10



### good ideas and I'm making notes about those. 11



### Okay. 12



### Yes, Kent. 13



### MR. PETERSON: Doug, in my 14



### experience, consensus is not just about a vote 15



### at the end of the work. It's really about a 16



### process. And at a working group level the 17



### materially effected parties really have to 18



### have their say and to be given a chance that 19



### they give the input before the decision or the 20



### vote is actually made. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. PETERSON: So I think it's a 1



### lot more difficult than just saying this is 2



### what ASRAC's done. Go and take it. It really 3



### is more of a process that's laid out for t he 4



### working groups so they're all following a 5



### similar process. They may choose to have a 6



### difference in what their final vote is in 7



### reaching that consensus. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. To follow on 9



### what Andrew was saying about minority voices 10



### not being fully hea rd, that sort of thing, 11



### surely it's the obligation of the Department 12



### to try and compose any working group that's 13



### got a fair representation of major 14



### stakeholders the traditional justification for 15



### consensus that is everyone can live with it. 16



### The negotiators work very hard to accommodate 17



### a minority voice that could stop them from 18



### achieving that consensus. You can sometimes 19



### get a more fully vetted outcome, a more robust 20



### sort of result if everybody knows that that 21



### one person who's negotiating hard might derail 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the entire consensus. I just offer that as a 1



### small reflection on the justification 2



### historically for every one in the room saying 3



### yes. 4



### Did you want in here, David? 5



### DR. HUNGERFORD: This is David 6



### Hungerford. I think you just articulated what 7



### I wanted to bring up. I would have said it a 8



### little differently. It's actually a tool to 9



### force the majority to consider the perspective 10



### of the minority in coming to a final decision 11



### by preventing them from being able to steam 12



### roll past minority opinion. 13



### MR. BRO OKMAN: This has been a 14



### good discussion. And we're just about to go 15



### to lunch. Before we go lunch, John and 16



### others. 17



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Yes. I guess I 18



### would just reflect on that and say I think the 19



### procedure we have has or we may have I think 20



### well accom modates that. I think the issue 21



### with unanimity which I would encourage you to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### working group to think about is does that lead 1



### to gridlock or not, recognizing that whether 2



### the working group comes to a decision or not 3



### DOE is going to act anyway. 4



### So it's no t like the working group 5



### is blocking DOE action. DOE is going to act. 6



### So the question is can there be something 7



### productive that comes out of a working group 8



### that can help inform that decision. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments 10



### before we go to lunch? 11



### (No verbal response.) 12



### At lunch, we'll work to write up 13



### this. When we return from lunch, we'll have 14



### something printed off for you to look at and 15



### move toward making a decision on that. And 16



### also immediately following lunch, thoughts and 17



### discussion on the thin gs that ASRAC would 18



### recommend be considered in the negotiated 19



### rulemaking context. 20



### Did I say that sufficiently? Yes, 21



### I did. Okay. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### It just about takes an hour 1



### minimum for those of you

-- I think all of you 2



### are familiar with the Forrestal Building 3



### pret ty much. And a whole bunch of us will 4



### climb on the elevator and go down to the 5



### ground floor and go about 100 yards that

- a
- way 6



### to a big cafeteria. There is also a Subway 7



### shop on the ground floor just about underneath 8



### us on the far side of the hall. But I would 9



### recommend the big cafeteria. 10



### And so let's try and resume at 11



### 1:00 p.m. And we had a really good start on 12



### the morning. A pleasure to have you here with 13



### us and we'll see you back here at 1:00 p.m. 14



### (Whereupon, the above

- entitled 15



### matter went off th e record at 11:58 a.m. and 16



### resumed at 1:11 p.m.) 17

18

19

20

21

22NEAL R. GROSS

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1

2

3NEAL R. GROSS

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### A

- F

- T

- E

- R

- N

- O

- O

- N S

- E

- S

- S

- I

- O

- N 1



### (1:11 p.m.) 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's 3



### resume. Please take your seats. 4



### Okay. We had a very productive 5



### discussion this morning, and I thought we'd 6



### start off the afternoon reviewing what you 7



### collectively created as draft decisionmaking 8



### rules. 9



### Moving from there, as reflected in 10



### the agenda, wanted to have maybe a general 11



### conversation about identifying how the initial 12



### committee efforts might best facilitate 13



### p rogram activities. And then going from there 14



### to perhaps some more specifics, possible 15



### ideas, opportunities for the committee 16



### consider for working group activity. 17



### So, and then of course next steps, 18



### and then at the end of the day, around about 19



### 3:00, there is a public comment period. So 20



### that looms ahead. 21



### So what do you think about what we 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### wrote up here, what we interpreted that you 1



### said this morning? 2



### Kelley? 3



### MS. KLINE: On the third bullet, I 4



### thought we had left it that we would really be 5



### tabling the working group consensus approach 6



### for them. And I wonder how it's worded if 7



### we're implying that we are recommending to 8



### them the 75 percent/75 percent in the first 9



### couple of bullets. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Can you 11



### offer edits or

-- 12



### MS. KLINE: Well, I g uess it 13



### depends on if we think we are going to be 14



### developing guidance for the workgroups on 15



### consensus, I might say something like, 16



### "ASRAC's to be developed, suggested consensus 17



### approach," or something like that, just 18



### something to make clear we are not nece ssarily 19



### adopting the 75 percent/75 percent for the 20



### workgroups. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: This is consistent 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### with your comment, John, I think. Isn't it? 1



### Weigh in here. 2



### MR. CASKEY: Actually, what she is 3



### talking about is different than what I had 4



### mentioned earlie r. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6



### MR. CASKEY: And my

-- well, I 7



### don't want to muddle what she is thinking 8



### about. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: So, Kelley, I lost 10



### track of where we

-- 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: One thing

-- so 12



### the way I read that, Kelley, is just that 13



### whoever the ASRAC representative is on the 14



### working group would provide an explanation of 15



### our consensus approach to the working group. 16



### We wouldn't necessarily impose it 17



### on them, but we would provide the full 18



### explanation of what we did and why we did it. 19



### And then th ey can adopt it, they can change 20



### it as they see fit, within each working group. 21



### But it would be the responsibility of whoever 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the ASRAC representative is to do that for 1



### each working group. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Guidance for their 3



### consideration. 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG : That's how I read 5



### that. I don't know if anybody else agrees. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Any changes? 7



### MR. CASKEY: So one way to 8



### wordsmith that, if you want to wordsmith it, 9



### would be, "ASRAC representative member would 10



### provide," and strike the word "explicit"

- - I 11



### think that's a little bit sort of hard

-- 12



### "provide explanation of ASRAC's consensus 13



### approach, as a starting point for the working 14



### group to develop their own consensus 15



### definition" or rulemaking process, or whatever 16



### you want to call it. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Definition. That 18



### sounds great. 19



### MR. CASKEY: Okay. That's great. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 21



### MR. CASKEY: Leave the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### parenthetical? 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. good. 2



### Stay right there. Good, good. Okay. 3



### We will review all of these of 4



### course before we do anything with them. And 5



### then, John, you had an additional point. 6



### MR. CASKEY: Yeah. It's not a big 7



### deal, but on the second bullet, for me 8



### personally, I would love if we could say that 9



### our objective is really to develop a consensus 10



### where everyone in the activity, you know, 11



### fully supports the recommendation or the 12



### division. 13



### And if that is not accomplished 14



### with a

-- like the idea that everyone can live 15



### with it, if that's not accomplished, then our 16



### backup plan would have this 75 percent of 17



### members c asting a vote constitutes a 18



### consensus. 19



### DR. HUNGERFORD: I agree. That 20



### should be the second bullet, is the goals, and 21



### then have this as a sub to that. This is what 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### we do if we can't do that. 1



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, you could 2



### say the objective is to s eek consensus among 3



### all ASRAC members. 4



### MR. CASKEY: Yes. Unanimity? 5



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: I think

-- no. 6



### I think the objective is to seek consensus 7



### among all ASRAC voting members. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9



### MR. CASKEY: But we don't know 10



### what definition of consensus we are using in 11



### that first sentence is the problem. 12



### DR. HUNGERFORD: The traditional 13



### one. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Well, when you say 15



### -- 16



### MR. CASKEY: Yeah. So we're using 17



### consensus twice with two different definitions 18



### in the same

-- 19



### MR. CYMBAL SKY: Like you would 20



### argue for the unanimous

-- 21



### MR. CASKEY: Yeah. So unanimity. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### I can't spell it, but I can say it. 1



### MR. CYMBALSKY: I can't say it. 2



### MR. CASKEY: Well, you spell it 3



### for them then. 4



### MR. CYMBALSKY: I can't do either. 5



### MR. CASKEY: I would say the 6



### consensus is to seek unanimity among all 7



### ASRAC's voting members. 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: That works. And 9



### then just what

-- 10



### MR. CASKEY: Yes. The objective, 11



### and if we can't meet that, then we

-- 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Put it as a 13



### separate bulle t. 14



### MR. CASKEY:

-- we go to

-- 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: There you go. 16



### MR. CASKEY: Yeah. Something like 17



### that. Absent that

-- 18



### MS. ARMSTRONG: There you go. 19



### MR. COUSINS: I would say if 20



### unachievable

-- 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. COUSINS:

-- 75 percent

. 1



### MR. CASKEY: That's great. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And we just 3



### wanted to confirm one other point here, which 4



### was call

- in and remote voting allowed. And I 5



### believe Dan was saying this was Jeremiah's 6



### remembering, that no proxy votes were allowed, 7



### and so just wanted to clarify that as well. 8



### But wanting to make certain that every member 9



### had access, had a chance to weigh in when a 10



### vote was called. 11



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: This is Andrew. 12



### Do we need to capture the point about, you 13



### know, that the

-- if there's n ot unanimity 14



### that we would convey the results of the vote, 15



### or is that already captured in the by

- laws 16



### somehow? 17



### Okay. It's already required, so 18



### we don't have to capture it here. Okay. 19



### MR. PETERSON: The second bullet, 20



### sub

- bullet, what's in parentheses , abstaining 21



### does not detract from the 75 percent achieved. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Which 75 percent are we talking about? 1



### MR. FREEMAN: If you abstain, it 2



### doesn't count against the 75 percent needed 3



### for

-- 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: For consensus. 5



### MR. FREEMAN:

-- for the 6



### consensus. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Not for quorum, 8



### for the vote. 9



### MR. PETERSON: I mean, if they 10



### cast a vote, the votes

-- if you abstain, you 11



### don't cast a vote. It's already said, right? 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: We just wanted to 13



### be real clear. 14



### MR. PETERSON: Okay. 15



### MR. BRO OKMAN: That was the point 16



### you made. 17



### MR. PETERSON: Well, some

-- the 18



### reason I'm asking the question is because 19



### someone else asked the question about whether 20



### if they abstained, does it hurt the quorum. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Right. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. PETERSON: And that is also 75 1



### percent. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Yeah. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: This could maybe be 5



### more elegantly worded, but is the content

-- I 6



### think most of the content is there? Yes. 7



### John. 8



### MR. CASKEY: We hadn't discussed 9



### it earlie r, but this implies we either have a 10



### face

- to

- face or a teleconference. But do we 11



### want to specifically allow an electronic vote? 12



### You know, if we don't reach quorum on a 13



### particular issue, do we want to allow some 14



### sort of electronic vote? 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I think 17



### that's

-- remote, to me, suggested something 18



### like that, but do you want to write, slash 19



### "electronic"? Right? 20



### MR. CASKEY: For me, there are two 21



### different issues. You know, the call

- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### in/remote means that if everybody is meeting 1



### in this room and I'm sick in a hospital bed, I 2



### can call in and vote yea or nay. 3



### But in addition to that, there is 4



### a process where if you don't achieve a quorum 5



### or a consensus at that meeting, then two weeks 6



### from now we could send out an email for people 7



### to vote electronically. And every one of the 8



### members would vote electronically. You 9



### wouldn't have like 10 people here and one 10



### person sending an electronic note voting yea 11



### or nay. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Would that work for 13



### you? Yeah. So let's add t he word 14



### "electronic" slash

-- 15



### MR. CASKEY: Again, for me I'm 16



### saying that's a whole separate bullet. 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So put "and." 18



### Call

- in/remote and electronic voting, so they 19



### are two separate things, or

-- 20



### MR. CASKEY: Or just that if 21



### desired, we, you know, have the opportunity to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### do electronic vote or something. 1



### MR. PETERSON: As opposed to 2



### having a meeting entirely, you're saying to 3



### send out an email to

-- 4



### MR. CASKEY: Right. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6



### MR. PETERSON: I just have a 7



### question re lative to that. Does that have to 8



### be open to the public? I would think the vote 9



### would have to be public. 10



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I would 11



### think. 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be 13



### webinar. Well, I don't know. 14



### MR. CASSIDY: On the first bullet, 15



### I was wonderi ng if it wouldn't be better to 16



### just say, "Eight members constitutes a 17



### quorum." 18



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the problem 19



### is, like what he said earlier, that if we have 20



### two spots vacant, because of whatever reason, 21



### then now you are at eight of nine. Is that 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### real ly what you mean? Or can the 75 percent 1



### flux with your full percent of membership? 2



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: You know, 3



### letting it flux would be an attempt that would 4



### put pressure on the Department to keep the 5



### seats filled. So that could be good. The 6



### problem I see

-- would be worried about

-- a 7



### working group puts in all this hard word, and 8



### then we don't have

-- we can't form a quorum 9



### to approve it, because John couldn't get some 10



### paperwork through the HR office. That would 11



### be what I would worry about. 12



### MR. CA SSIDY: Okay. Yeah, sure. 13



### But I wonder if

-- you know, what's the 14



### minimum size you can have and still call this 15



### a committee. So not to make this into a big 16



### thing, but, you know, the reason that I 17



### brought it up was the 75 percent is used twice 18



### and it was confusing. And if you don't need 19



### to say 75 percent, and you can say eight 20



### members minimum is a quorum, then there is no 21



### confusion. It's very clear. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. FREEMAN: We are required to 1



### fill the 12 seat

-- "approximately 12," is how 2



### it's worded in the char ter, and that according 3



### to Wayne Gordon

-- he was here this morning 4



### with you guys

-- that is plus or minus like 5



### one or two people. So we have to keep the 6



### seats at least to 10, as required, but we of 7



### course will do our best to keep the full 12 8



### seats full. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: So what do you

-- 10



### do you want to press your point or

-- 11



### MR. CASSIDY: I'll leave it stand. 12



### It has been decided what we want to do. 13



### MR. BROOKMAN: If this committee 14



### decides three months from now, six months from 15



### now, they want to chang e this as you're making 16



### rules, can they do that? 17



### MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's

-- 18



### as long

-- now, there's two different changes 19



### you could be talking about. So one could be 20



### changing the charter at some point to add more 21



### members or reduce members, whatev er. But I 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### think this the group can decide to change its 1



### own rules. Sure. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: That would be my 3



### guess. Okay. John? 4



### MR. CASKEY: One hopefully final 5



### thing. Do we want to explicitly state that we 6



### follow the Robert's Rules of Order? Or is 7



### that applied? Or is that already in a DOE 8



### statute somewhere that, you know, if push 9



### comes to shove we'd go back to the Robert's 10



### Rules of Order? 11



### MR. FREEMAN: Rephrase the 12



### question. 13



### MR. CASKEY: Should we

-- well, I 14



### guess one question is, do we, as AS RAC, plan 15



### to follow the Robert's Rules of Order? And if 16



### we do, does that need to be stated here, or is 17



### that just implied in all U.S. organizations or 18



### something? 19



### MR. FREEMAN: I'm not familiar 20



### with what the Robert's Rules of Orders. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: My experience with 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### groups like this is that Robert's Rules aren't 1



### usually needed. It's a collegial back and 2



### forth, and everybody gets a chance to say what 3



### they need to say, and respect is given as 4



### needed to get those viewpoints said. And it's 5



### easy enough to call the motion or have a vote 6



### when the time has come. 7



### So, okay? Yes, Andrew? 8



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Back to the 9



### final point on this proxy or electronic 10



### voting. I would

-- you know, I think that 11



### we'd benefit from the interaction, the 12



### discussion, before we bring it to a vote, in 13



### that we know sort of where people

-- you know, 14



### what are the pros and cons that is going to be 15



### discussed as opposed to it has just been put 16



### out to an email, here's a proposal, you need 17



### to vote. 18



### So in your formulation, John, 19



### would that discuss have already happened? Or 20



### could you envision a vote when there was never 21



### a discussion, it just was put out to a vote? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Do you know what I mean? So how is that 1



### staged? 2



### MR. CASKEY: I mean, I

-- well, 3



### two things. One, I don't feel strongly about 4



### this. But, two, from my experience, sometimes 5



### we might get a recommendation from a group, 6



### and it's like we come up with a question and 7



### we just ask them do we want to go back and 8



### wordsmith their recommendation, and then we 9



### don't need to meet again t o review it. 10



### You know, if there was a concern 11



### and they fixed it, then it might come back and 12



### we could just send it out for electronic vote 13



### and say, "Oh, yeah, that's exactly the way we 14



### wanted them to fix it." Does that make sense? 15



### It would keep us fr om having to have another 16



### meeting. 17



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: The way this is 18



### -- I guess the way this is phrased is

-- 19



### doesn't the site capture that? So that

-- now 20



### ASRAC can perform electronic voting. You 21



### know, if we're just sending an email out to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### people, that's not really helping us to obtain 1



### objective number two. Right? If it's the 2



### major proposal that we haven't talked about 3



### previously. So, you know, we

-- 4



### MR. CASKEY: Yeah. I only 5



### pictured doing that after we had like a face

6



### to

- face meeting or a te leconference on certain 7



### topics and we needed to clean up some wording 8



### or something like that just to get the 9



### progress made before the next meeting we could 10



### do an electronic

-- 11



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Time

- saving 12



### thing as opposed to

-- 13



### MR. CASKEY: Yeah. Th at was my 14



### thought. 15



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Right. So I 16



### guess I

-- that's not captured in the way 17



### we've written this, so

-- 18



### MR. CASKEY: Yeah. I mean, I 19



### would support something like that. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: ASRAC can perform 21



### electronic voting to conclude bus iness that 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the committee had already discussed. 1



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Okay. That 2



### works. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah? 4



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: For me. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes? 6



### DR. HUNGERFORD: Are we

-- is 7



### there something in the charter that requires 8



### us to re ach consensus? Is that why we're 9



### defining "consensus" as a majority? Because 10



### otherwise it says

-- it still reads to me like 11



### we're saying yellow is green. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: It's close on the 13



### spectrum. 14



### (Laughter.) 15



### DR. HUNGERFORD: But it seems like 16



### the objective is to seek consensus. If 17



### consensus is not achievable, a majority of 75 18



### percent may act. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I thought I 20



### heard Dan say that this is called consensus, 21



### this decisionmaking rule. That's what I 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### thought I heard him say. 1



### MS. ARMS TRONG: The wording 2



### throughout much of the documentation has the 3



### word consensus in it. However you define 4



### that, which is what we are trying to do here. 5



### So I think you're getting caught up on a 6



### word, right? I mean

-- 7



### DR. HUNGERFORD: Well, I like 8



### words to mean what they mean in the 9



### dictionary. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Let me give you 11



### another minute to just look at this and ponder 12



### it. Yes, Tom? 13



### MR. COUGHLIN: Tom Coughlin. 14



### Although it is stated elsewhere, I'm just 15



### wondering if right here we might want to put 16



### another bullet that kind of closes this

-- 17



### what if we don't reach consensus, what happens 18



### there? 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Is that in your 20



### guidance? 21



### MR. COUGHLIN: It is in the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### guidance, but I didn't know whether we wanted 1



### to restate it here. Kind of just close s this 2



### -- 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: The guidance says 4



### something like

-- John, help me here, 5



### actually, if the

-- yeah. Okay. I think in 6



### this discussion we are clear that this 7



### committee seeks unanimity, and you would hope 8



### to guide the working groups to seek unanimi ty. 9



### And noting that occasionally one 10



### person or two persons can stop that, and 11



### they're dug in, that you don't want to be 12



### stopped entirely by that kind of an activity. 13



### So this is a pragmatic way to have a super

14



### majority of individuals that want to carry 15



### this forward and move the process ahead. So 16



### that's the logic. 17



### So are we all

-- are we 18



### comfortable with this? Yes? So the way I 19



### would do this as a mediator would be, do we 20



### have anyone who dissents from accepting this 21



### -- these bullet points, this

-- the se 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### decisionmaking rules for ASRAC? 1



### Okay. Seeing none, 2



### congratulations. You've made your first 3



### decision. 4



### (Applause.) 5



### I would like to shift, and it does 6



### seem
-- where you work, what you do, there is 7



### a lot that you see in your participation of 8



### the app liance standards process, the normal 9



### process, the ongoing regulatory process. 10



### So the question is, as members of 11



### ASRAC, would you suggest ways that this 12



### committee can best facilitate those program 13



### activities? And we'll start with that as kind 14



### of a genera l discussion, and then move from 15



### there into possible ideas looking ahead 16



### perhaps for negotiated rulemaking or other 17



### forms. 18



### John? 19



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Can you just 20



### clarify what this first step is? 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: If you look at the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### agenda, at the 1:00 ti me block in black, it 1



### says, "Committee Discussion: Identifying 2



### Initial Committee Efforts to Best Facilitate 3



### Program Activities." 4



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Okay. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: And to me that

-- 6



### Ashley? Yeah, but I was wanting to do more 7



### general before we do more specific. 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think they are 9



### kind of intertwined. I mean, I think what 10



### we're looking for and what we were thinking 11



### about is open up the floor to the initial 12



### committee first for ideas for either process

13



### related type things or specific rulemaking

14



### type things, or cross

- cutting type things that 15



### we think would be right for potential forming 16



### of working groups at this point. So

-- 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 18



### MR. COUSINS: Yeah. I have a 19



### comment, a question around process, and it 20



### really doesn 't have anything directly to do 21



### with working groups. But when we were here

-- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### earlier this morning we had a discussion about 1



### the process, the NOPR process and what 2



### happens. And we talked about, you know, 3



### development of the standards and the charge 4



### that t he DOE has with regard to where the 5



### thresholds we know need to be

-- responsibly 6



### need to be set. 7



### And when we talk about the 8



### economics of it, it was pointed out that if 9



### there is a positive net present value, you 10



### know, with regard to whether or not that 11



### pa rticular threshold moves forward, so we had 12



### this discussion about process. But I would 13



### like for this committee to have the 14



### opportunity to discuss

-- as a part of the 15



### negotiated rulemaking, discuss factors that 16



### may be outside of those boundaries. Now, I 17



### d on't know if that's off

- limits legally or 18



### not. 19



### Now, to be specific about it, if 20



### there's a threshold that wants to be set, some 21



### efficiency threshold, and the process vets it 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### out and there is a positive net present value 1



### that's associated with that thres hold, but the 2



### members of this committee feel that it is 3



### still irresponsible, I wonder if this is a 4



### forum that we could have discussion beyond 5



### that. Is that something that can be 6



### considered? 7



### MR. CYMBALSKY: I think I am going 8



### to try to capture what Steve is saying. So 9



### what this curve is is the net present value of 10



### benefit by efficiency level in a rulemaking, 11



### let's say. So generally speaking, you start 12



### at

-- the baseline there is no

-- there is 13



### nothing. Nothing happens. 14



### You go up, this would be the point 15



### where you would have maximum net present 16



### value. Generally speaking

-- and it's not 17



### always the case, but, you know, the max tech 18



### solution would be so

-- could be so expensive 19



### that you get negative net present value. So 20



### that's this point here. 21



### What Dan was describing was the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### legal sort of point, you know, would be this 1



### -- maximizing the energy efficiency at a point 2



### of positive net present value. So that

-- 3



### this is the point that Dan described. 4



### Now, what you can negotiate in the 5



### working groups is any of these solution sets, 6



### right? Even if you wanted that one, you could 7



### negotiate that. 8



### MR. COUSINS: Right. Right. 9



### MR. CYMBALSKY: But, you know, the 10



### negotiated outcome would be that seventh 11



### factor that Dan described. It's other factors 12



### that the Secretary deems important to the 13



### rulemaking. 14



### And so when you guys are 15



### negotiating in working groups, it's not just 16



### this, but you are talking about what happens 17



### to small businesses. There could be a whole 18



### host of other ideas that you are negotiating 19



### agai nst. 20



### MR. COUSINS: Right. And so 21



### whatever recommendations come out of that 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### working group, which may represent something 1



### that is, say, on the lower edge of this curve, 2



### is something that could potentially be pushed 3



### forward in the rulemaking. 4



### MR. CYMBALS KY: Yeah. I mean, I 5



### think that was true for transformers, that we 6



### didn't get

-- we didn't get a point over here 7



### for medium voltage, right? 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew? 9



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Yeah. I guess 10



### I would say

-- and just to elaborate on what I 11



### -- my e xperience is that even in the contested 12



### rulemakings DOE has selected levels any

-- all 13



### over that curve that John has drawn, except 14



### for to the right, except for below the origin. 15



### Okay? In my experience. And they've been 16



### all over that curve. 17



### And I think the point that they 18



### have actually

-- if I had to go over 30 years 19



### of experience in looking at the rulemakings, 20



### the point most commonly chosen has been the 21



### apex of that curve. Okay? Most commonly 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### chosen. 1



### So the

-- you know, it is a

-- 2



### even in a contest ed rulemaking, it's those 3



### seven factors, it's not just this one factor 4



### -- this factor kind of just

-- as I heard it 5



### described this morning is the starting point, 6



### but it's not the ending point. 7



### MR. COUSINS: Okay. That's good. 8



### And the reason why I asked is I said outside 9



### of the financial/economic factors. My 10



### thinking is that it may very well be that 11



### where you are along that curve may change the 12



### landscape of commerce, where

-- okay, whereas 13



### a small business factors in on this side, but 14



### if you're on that side then small business can 15



### no longer be involved in dealing with that 16



### commodity. 17



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Right. 18



### MR. COUSINS: Or, you know, it's 19



### things of that nature that I was

-- 20



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: And the other 21



### piece of this is

-- there's the small b usiness 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### piece of it, and then there also are the 1



### external benefits, right, that aren't showing 2



### up in that curve, too. 3



### The way it's drawn doesn't take 4



### into account external benefits in terms of 5



### environmental benefits. They aren't on that 6



### curve. So they 're

-- it goes

-- it does cut 7



### both ways in terms of where you would end. So 8



### those environmental benefits are in that other 9



### factor as well. Peak demand on utility grids, 10



### that's on that curve. All of those factors 11



### need to be part of what the working group 12



### would consider. 13



### MR. BROOKMAN: So what are your 14



### ideas? What are you thinking that the 15



### Advisory Committee should suggest that working 16



### groups consider, for example? Kelley? 17



### MS. KLINE: As we are talking 18



### about really cross

- cutting ideas, right? 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 20



### MS. KLINE: I had one. Thinking 21



### that we talked a little earlier today about 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### test procedure complexity and how, you know, 1



### there's a lot of test procedure development, a 2



### lot of questions I think around interpretation 3



### of current test proce dures. 4



### And I think DOE has done some 5



### really good things over the past couple of 6



### years. I'm thinking about like a correlation 7



### summit that we did once on like clothes 8



### dryers, and I forget

-- several other 9



### products. Some of the ways that DOE is 10



### communicat ing guidance is very good I think. 11



### But I think there might be an 12



### opportunity there to think about how there is 13



### a uniform or consistent way to make sure test 14



### procedures are getting interpreted the same 15



### way and for questions to be kind of vetted and 16



### raised , because I think there is a lot of 17



### examples these days about test procedure 18



### interpretation questions. 19



### So that's the thought. It's not 20



### really fully formed. But if there's something 21



### that this committee could work on to make some 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### recommendations around t hat, I think that 1



### might be beneficial. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other ideas? 3



### Areas that this committee or working group 4



### might pursue? Tom Eckman? 5



### MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. This is along 6



### the lines of test procedures as well. I think 7



### it's cross

- cutting. One o f the stumbling 8



### blocks we have in many of the rulemakings is 9



### the lack of what I'll call duty cycle 10



### information on the product, that either is 11



### current or field

- based or what have you. 12



### So the test procedure development

13



### laced example which Charlie Stevens b rought 14



### in, the number of cycles of dryer use in the 15



### northwest in 50 homes compared to the current 16



### test procedure, it was two

- to

- one 17



### differential. 18



### Well, that's a big air band to 19



### negotiate around. And we have the same thing 20



### on icemakers. We don't know wh at the duty 21



### cycle is. How much ice do they make? They 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### have a capacity, but how much ice do they 1



### really make? 2



### And every time we stumble, because 3



### that information isn't readily available, not 4



### current, and I think some workgroup that can 5



### put together a s cope of work that says, "These 6



### are the ones that are coming down the pike. 7



### How are we going to get that information in 8



### front of the freight train before we have to 9



### make a decision about either the test 10



### procedure or use of that information for life

11



### cycle c osting?" Because it also involves the 12



### life

- cycle cost analysis. 13



### This is the duty cycle with 14



### produces the kilowatt hours, not the kW. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: So the task is 16



### something like scope or anticipate these in 17



### advance. 18



### MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. And figure 19



### ou t, you know, how is that research going to 20



### get done? Where is it? If it's not being 21



### done now, where is it going to be done? So 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that it doesn't hold up a testing procedure, 1



### and it doesn't hold up a life

- cycle. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3



### MR. ECKMAN: You kn ow, we had the 4



### same thing on refrigerators. What's the 5



### icemaker cycle? 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Scope or 7



### anticipate the research that's needed. Okay. 8



### Good. 9



### Other thoughts? John, yes. 10



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: There is a more 11



### specific one that is real

- time before the 12



### Department now, and that is on the HVAC and 13



### commercial refrigeration world, a potential 14



### negotiated rulemaking on certification and 15



### enforcement. 16



### MS. KLINE: But that wouldn't be 17



### unique to HVAC or

-- 18



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: The one that's 19



### on the ta ble is. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to

-- 21



### is that sufficient? Do you want to say a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### little more about that? 1



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, this has 2



### been

-- there has been at least one proposed 3



### rule on this and several discussions and 4



### consideration by the Depa rtment through a 5



### process last year to evaluate whether they 6



### should move forward with a consensus 7



### rulemaking or not. So there has been a lot of 8



### -- I mean, I'm sorry, negotiated rulemaking or 9



### not. 10



### So there has been Department time 11



### invested in reaching to this point, and it 12



### really

-- we now have the ASRAC, which is kind 13



### of being inserted into the process. So I 14



### think we have to formally decide whether it's 15



### a topic ripe for proceeding or not. I happen 16



### to think it is. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe we just 18



### use th at as a test case. How would

-- not 19



### getting into specifics, if a member pushed 20



### forward an idea like this, how would you 21



### imagine that it then proceeds? Ashley? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think we 1



### would discuss it first, but the idea would be 2



### that ultimatel y if this committee thinks that 3



### that is a good idea, we would vote to form a 4



### working group. And as part of that, we would 5



### discuss the initial scope of that working 6



### group as well as timeframe. And then, from 7



### there we would formally recommend DOE would 8



### act on that working group formation. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 10



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, that 11



### is one that, as John said, has been out for a 12



### while. There is an impending deadline with 13



### that one, so that's one that would go quick, 14



### if we were to form a working group. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other 16



### thoughts? 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: To answer Kelley's 18



### question, just for a second, so this one 19



### probably

-- well, this one probably would be 20



### -- because commercial HVAC and CRE equipment 21



### currently right now does not have to cert ify 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### -- their certification has been delayed until 1



### December 31st of this year

-- I think this one 2



### should be narrower in scope in addressing that 3



### impending deadline. 4



### If we wanted to open up a broader 5



### topic of certification issues for different 6



### products, I think you would do that in a 7



### separate working group just so that the 8



### potential list of issues doesn't hold up 9



### progress with this one in meeting any such 10



### deadline. At least that would be my 11



### recommendation. That's open to, obviously, 12



### any discussion. 13



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So did I 14



### capture that? Also, plus the broader

-- 15



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not 16



### recommending that. I just

-- 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, 18



### someone else raised it. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG:

-- wanted to 20



### clarify. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: These are 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### possibles, right? Certification. 1



### Yes, John. 2



### MR. CASKEY: This is sort of 3



### related to the first one, but it's a cross

4



### cutting issue, and it really deals with 5



### interpretation of test procedures and possibly 6



### other things. But, you know, the fact that we 7



### work with a wide variety of manufacturers, 8



### they interpret the test procedures and other 9



### things inconsistently. 10



### But to get an answer from DOE 11



### often takes long

-- no offense, often takes a 12



### long period of time. Is there some guidance 13



### that we can give to DOE that a m onth is the 14



### right amount of time, or two months, or some 15



### minimum

-- some maximum period of time by 16



### which DOE will respond to questions associated 17



### with test procedures and other issues? 18



### MS. KLINE: I think that's part of 19



### what I was trying to get at. 20



### MR. CASKEY: Okay. So maybe

-- 21



### MS. KLINE: At like whether it's 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### -- 1



### MR. CASKEY: Just sort of like an 2



### upper limit on the schedule or the turnaround 3



### time or something like that. 4



### MS. KLINE: I guess I was thinking 5



### about it more in terms of what's the most 6



### expeditious way for clearing up test procedure 7



### questions. 8



### MR. CASKEY: Okay. 9



### MS. KLINE: I wasn't thinking 10



### about it in terms of like a time limit. I was 11



### thinking about, are there better ways to get 12



### at reconciling test procedure questions when 13



### they ar ise? 14



### MR. CASKEY: I think it's all part 15



### of that. 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Great. So I'm 17



### going to say from my perspective, because a 18



### lot of them come to me

-- you know, it's 19



### easier when I

-- you guys asked some very 20



### open
- ended questions. Sometimes they come in 21



### and say, "Manufacturer A is doing this, and 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Manufacturer B is doing this." 1



### Other times it's, "DOE has tested. 2



### We have done it one way, and our results are 3



### showing one thing and your results are showing 4



### other things." And in some cases that is a 5



### test p rocedure interpretation issue. 6



### It's a lot easier when we have all 7



### of the details of the processes. So maybe the 8



### best thing to do this would be to figure out a 9



### process. Some of them

-- we could definitely 10



### put a timeline on it. I can tell you that not 11



### a ll of them can be answered through guidance 12



### or feedback right on the cusp, so there will 13



### have to be some caveat. 14



### But some of them have to go 15



### through notice of rule and comment. So that's 16



### the caveat there. That's why some take longer 17



### than others, as you have seen for some of the 18



### AHAM issues. 19



### But I definitely think it's worth 20



### doing now, because I probably get over a dozen 21



### test procedure questions a week for a variety 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### of different

-- so there is no lack of them. 1



### That's for sure. Especially the more we test. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: So this is a good 3



### start. 4



### MS. KLINE: I think there may be 5



### an opportunity here where the test procedure 6



### questions may

-- there may be some interplay 7



### here with the certification questions. I'm 8



### thinking about, you know, as you see up coming 9



### certification deadlines, that's probably when 10



### you are getting a lot of test procedure 11



### questions on a particular topic. So there may 12



### be a way to kind of dovetail the two. 13



### MR. BROOKMAN: Other thoughts? 14



### Other ideas? Areas? Yes, Andrew. 15



### CO

- CHAI R deLASKI: So I think I'm 16



### just going to

-- I'll put out a couple of 17



### areas where I think are possible, and these 18



### are technology

- specific ideas. 19



### I guess I will just start with 20



### sort of an obvious point, which is that, you 21



### know, a negotiation is not going t o work 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### unless we have active participation by the key 1



### stakeholders. Right? So sort of a

-- if we 2



### don't have enough

-- if we do a Federal 3



### Register notice and no one applies, throw a 4



### party, no one comes. You know, it's not going 5



### to work. 6



### So I think, yo u know, a threshold 7



### point is, you know, do we have buy

- in from, 8



### call them the key parties, to do a negotiated 9



### rulemaking. And at this point, I don't think 10



### we do for any of the technologies that I have 11



### been involved in in discussions on a private 12



### basis thu s far. 13



### So there are two areas that are 14



### public that we have told the Department that 15



### we are in private discussions with, and those 16



### are with regard to fans and pumps. And I had 17



### lunch discussions or just in the hallway here 18



### just with HI and with AMCA

-- Michael and Bob 19



### are both here

-- and there is interest in 20



### pursuing those potentially. 21



### But they haven't yet gone to their 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### boards to see whether they've got the buy

- in 1



### from their boards to do a negotiation, and I 2



### haven't consulted with the folks who are on 3



### our side of the table in those private 4



### negotiations to say, "Do we want to take those 5



### private negotiations and put them into the 6



### FACA process?" 7



### There is interest, but there is 8



### not a recommendation yet from these parties 9



### that it should go there. 10



### So what I would suggest for both 11



### of those is that if there are good candidates, 12



### and that I would hope that this committee 13



### could reconvene in the not

- too

- distant future, 14



### say two months or so, once

-- these guys just 15



### had their framework meeting last week, and to 16



### be able to reconvene in two months and say yea 17



### or nay based on having consulted DOE and the 18



### parties having consulted to say, "Do we want 19



### to put it out there into that process?" 20



### There are a couple others that are 21



### out there that are in private negotiati ons 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that may make sense. But they are all in a

-- 1



### none of them are in a position today where we 2



### could say, "Yes, let's put it over to the

-- 3



### into the FACA process." 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve? 5



### MR. COUSINS: So we had discussion 6



### just a moment ago abou t the working groups and 7



### providing them guidance with regard to quorum 8



### and consensus, and so forth. 9



### And we said that those working 10



### groups can set up their own rules of

-- that 11



### causes me to think if there is any reason for 12



### us as a committee to lay out g round rules, not 13



### just around, you know, what constitutes a 14



### decision, but is there a need for us to create 15



### ground rules for the working groups, or is 16



### that something that has already been done just 17



### from negotiated rulemakings that have been 18



### done

-- is there already some kind of guidance 19



### that can be formulated from that? Or is it a 20



### situation that anything goes and we don't have 21



### to create anything? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### But I'm thinking that maybe it 1



### might be good for us to create something as a 2



### starting point for altogether new working 3



### groups on things that are in the very early 4



### process. 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I'm not 6



### quite sure I know what context you're speaking 7



### of

-- like guidelines. But we would establish 8



### their scope, you know, how narrow or how wide, 9



### right? We would giv e them a timeframe, at 10



### least an initial timeframe, to report back. 11



### And then, you know, the day

- to

- day 12



### activities are covered by the charter, and 13



### more or less, you know, the explanation of how 14



### things are supposed to go. 15



### Now, as far as their technical 16



### discussions and that kind of stuff, I think we 17



### leave that to them, because it's going to be 18



### very different by product, or could be very 19



### different by product, but I don't know what 20



### else you are seeking other than that. 21



### MR. COUSINS: Well, that's a good 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### po int, Ashley. What I was referring to is if 1



### there is some commodity here that, you know, 2



### it's early in the process and a working group 3



### is put together and it consists of people who 4



### are new to the process

-- you know, they 5



### haven't been involved in pre

- bid r ulemakings 6



### -- and they want to talk technology issues, 7



### like they want to talk about technologies that 8



### don't exist right now, they want to bring that 9



### into, you know, how it's going to impact the 10



### rule or technologies that are dying, and how 11



### that is going to

-- I mean, is there

-- does 12



### it make sense to say there are some things 13



### that are off limits? There are some things 14



### that are on limits? 15



### I mean, or should we just back 16



### away and say they can talk about anything they 17



### want to talk about. And they want to a dopt a 18



### threshold or a process or a procedure around 19



### technologies that don't exist, but they want 20



### to do that

-- that's

-- I mean, is there any 21



### -- do we draw any boundaries? Do we don't 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### draw any boundaries? You know, that's kind of 1



### what I'm thinking about with regard to giving 2



### them guidance as to how they work. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I guess

-- 4



### well, you

-- somebody else can talk, but my 5



### opinion of this would be that for

-- if you're 6



### talking about a specific standards rule, I 7



### mean, just pick one off the list. 8



### If we decided tomorrow to start 9



### something for automatic commercial icemakers, 10



### the preliminary analysis has been out. We 11



### were in the process of revising stuff. If we 12



### decided that that one was right for 13



### consideration, I think we let them negotiat e. 14



### I mean, if you have a well

- balanced 15



### committee, I don't think the outcome is going 16



### to be adopting something that is not yet 17



### commercially available, although yet, if they 18



### wanted to, they could make that recommendation 19



### to us. 20



### Ultimately, we would still have 21



### our discussions, subsequent to the working 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### groups. I don't think we need to put specific 1



### boundaries on them like that. I have a 2



### feeling a lot of those issues will come up, 3



### you know, in the context of their own 4



### discussions. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: So these are the 6



### words that I wrote up here. The DOE will

-- 7



### they will be scoping it, and they will be 8



### populating that working group. They will 9



### essentially be convening them, and they will 10



### orient those individuals as needed based on 11



### whatever is there. Right? 12



### And then, you will establish the 13



### timeline. You will provide technical support. 14



### And if that committee

-- that working group, 15



### pardon me, decided to go outside the bounds of 16



### that, then they could consider that. And 17



### though the stakeholder is present, you kn ow, 18



### they would tend to

-- right? Something like 19



### that. 20



### Kelley? 21



### MS. KLINE: A different topic, if 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that's okay. Back under the general heading 1



### of Test Procedures, but just another thought. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 3



### MS. KLINE: I'm thinking about 4



### several examples where we have test procedure 5



### changes and standards changes coming. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7



### MS. KLINE: And some of the timing 8



### issues around those, around, you know, test 9



### procedure changes leading into standard 10



### changes, what

-- you know, what happ ens when 11



### -- test procedure changes that may impact the 12



### measured energy, and then how that gets 13



### translated to standards. 14



### I think that there may be a cross

15



### cutting topic there, given the number of test 16



### procedure changes we are seeing and new 17



### standards that are becoming effective. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: You are thinking 19



### that perhaps there could be a schedule 20



### established that was more logical or coherent 21



### or something like that? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. KLINE: Well, I think it's

-- 1



### I think that's part of it, and then there 2



### could be m ore than that. Like what happens if 3



### a test procedure changes in advance of a new 4



### standard, and the test procedure changes the 5



### measured energy in some way. You know, what 6



### do you do with that? How does that translate 7



### into the standard? What kind of timin g issues 8



### may be presented by things like that? 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: It's the linkage 10



### between the two. 11



### MS. KLINE: I think that's right. 12



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: I'll pick up on 13



### that. I think that's a good idea, because we 14



### have seen instances in different produc t 15



### categories where a standard may be set and 16



### then a test procedure is either revised or set 17



### following a standard being set, but before the 18



### standard goes into effect. 19



### And the change in

-- potentially a 20



### change in the test procedure could in essence 21



### change the standard. And so it's the cadence 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### of those that becomes important. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? Let me 2



### remind you, as a member of this committee, you 3



### can suggest things, too. 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Thanks, Doug. I 5



### was trying to let everybody else talk first. 6



### So I think that's fine, as much as 7



### it can be generalized. But I think to take it 8



### a step further is you see what we are 9



### currently working on with this list. And even 10



### though some of the test procedures say NOPR, I 11



### mean, it's really early in some of thes e 12



### stages. 13



### This would be the time to convene 14



### working groups for specific products to deal 15



### with, not only test procedures, some of which 16



### may be overhaul

- type test procedures, and then 17



### characterizing that potential impact to feed 18



### into standards rulemaking s that either are 19



### really early as well or not yet started. 20



### So if there are certain issues 21



### that we know, either our major test procedure 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### issues that we haven't addressed yet or other 1



### ones, this would be the time to make specific 2



### product recommendations, b ecause 3



### characterizing those changes on an aggregated 4



### basis is going to be very difficult. 5



### MS. KLINE: I think that's exactly 6



### right. I mean, it really does get to be 7



### product

- specific pretty quick, and I think 8



### there is probably a few examples that are rip e 9



### right now, and then there's maybe the longer 10



### term question. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: My experience with 12



### negotiations like this is frequently they get 13



### -- they grind to a halt based on a few

-- a 14



### couple of really thorny issues. And so if you 15



### could anticipate what those issues were, 16



### either in the test procedure kind

-- put a 17



### little working group on it, you know, kind of 18



### sort through that and at least begin to gather 19



### the data, consistent with Tom's comment, then 20



### that would be a big advance. You wouldn't 21



### grind to a halt when you get to that point. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Yes, John. 1



### MR. CASKEY: Yes. I would like to 2



### see us develop some sort of process or 3



### procedures for validating the models used by 4



### the consultants and the DOE, you know, just 5



### some simple way to make sure it's in the righ t 6



### ballpark. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other 8



### thoughts? This is a good starting point. 9



### Yes, Andrew. 10



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: So this is a 11



### cross
- cutting issue, and I'm not sure how this 12



### committee can address it. But it's a big

-- 13



### our major concern with the pr ogram right now, 14



### which is the delays in finishing standards. 15



### So the timing of standards has 16



### gotten to be a problem. I think it was 17



### referenced earlier that, you know, someone

-- 18



### the Department, between 2006 or '07 and 2011, 19



### did a great job of sticking to its schedules 20



### for completing the new standards. 21



### And over the last, say, 18 months 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### to two years, things have slowed down to the 1



### point now where I think there is eight 2



### standards for which there are

-- DOE has 3



### missed deadlines, several of which are legal 4



### d eadlines. 5



### We published an analysis last 6



### month showing that that

-- those have real 7



### costs. We calculated $3.7 billion in lost net 8



### present value benefits to date, and an 9



### additional loss of $300 million a month 10



### because of the delay. So these have real 11



### i mplications in terms of lost savings for 12



### consumers, and in terms of environmental 13



### impacts. 14



### And also, it is having real 15



### impacts on manufacturers, because folks don't 16



### know what the compliance dates are. So we had 17



### -- we negotiated privately an agreement wi th 18



### AHAM for new standards for dishwashers and 19



### clothes washers that were adopted last year. 20



### But had a little kerfuffle at the 21



### end because it had taken the Department so 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### long to get the standards done that the lead 1



### time that was anticipated by the agreeme nt 2



### wasn't there. So the manufacturers weren't 3



### going to have as much lead time as they had 4



### thought they were going to have that they had 5



### negotiated. 6



### So as a result, we had to adjust 7



### -- we had to negotiate a new effective date, 8



### and that was solved. Same thing happened with 9



### some of the HVAC products where the lead times 10



### that were anticipated by agreements weren't 11



### achieved. And this is

-- so we have

-- so you 12



### bought a consensus, and then the consensus 13



### starts to break down because it is not being 14



### implemente d by the agency. 15



### So what do we do with this? Is 16



### there anything this committee can do to 17



### address this problem, which is sort of 18



### fundamental to the program, which is that, you 19



### know, the ability to set a schedule that the 20



### government then adheres to, at lea st within 21



### some striking distance. Certainly cross

- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### cutting. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So that 2



### would be kind of an active, ongoing thought 3



### process. 4



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Yeah. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Steve. 6



### MR. COUSINS: Typically, in 7



### industry or in busin ess when you go out into 8



### and you launch a new venture, and whether 9



### successful or whether it fails, afterwards you 10



### have this opportunity to examine your 11



### learnings. You know, what was good, what was 12



### bad, what should we adopt, you know, going 13



### forward in the future. How can we change our 14



### project management processes, and so forth. 15



### And I know there has been a lot of 16



### work with regard to, you know, standards that 17



### has been established around these appliances. 18



### I don't know if DOE has taken a few paces 19



### back and said, "What have we learned from all 20



### of these collective efforts that might help us 21



### going forward?" 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Perhaps this committee would be

-- 1



### is a mechanism to have discussion around 2



### learnings from all of these individual efforts 3



### with standards that have been e stablished, to 4



### help the process in the future, you know, to 5



### kind of come up with a tactical approach to 6



### probably get around some of the scheduling 7



### delays that we've had. 8



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: And just to 9



### follow on to Steve's point, it's seems to me 10



### that the Department has the model, right? The 11



### model has been laid out. It is supposed to 12



### take three years. There was an effort to 13



### compress it I think to make it maybe a little 14



### shorter than that in some cases. 15



### It would be interesting to go 16



### back, as you sugge st, and say, "Well, okay, so 17



### how has it worked?" We've got a bunch of data 18



### now. What and why

-- and to have information 19



### and discussion about what has worked, what 20



### hasn't, where have you missed the targets, and 21



### why, and to have that dealt with in an open 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### forum I think would be helpful to all of the 1



### parties. 2



### And that might lead to some 3



### recommendations for program improvements. 4



### Right? How do you do it differently? 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. Those 6



### are good thoughts. Additional thoughts? 7



### MR. CASKEY: Sure. I've always 8



### got one more idea. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Good. 10



### MR. CASKEY: One of the areas I 11



### deal with is smart grid and demand response. 12



### So at some point in the future, should some of 13



### these products have inherent in them some 14



### smart grid capability or some demand response 15



### capability? Because certainly in terms of, 16



### you know, Mom and apple pie and overall 17



### efficiency, being able to respond to some of 18



### those programs are pretty important, or is 19



### pretty important. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's good. 21



### I th ought I spotted one. So we've got quite 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### a few ideas already. I don't think the list 1



### is complete yet. Give you a chance to 2



### evaluate what's up here. 3



### As you look at this list here, 4



### just for example, or we can

-- we can put the 5



### test procedure list up as w ell. Are there any 6



### of these that strike you that they should get 7



### a boost from a working group? If it's too 8



### small to read, then it's also in your handout. 9



### MR. CASSIDY: If they're at the 10



### point of like a final rule, then it's pretty 11



### late in the game, rig ht? Is that

-- 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 13



### MR. CASSIDY: So it should be 14



### focused maybe on earlier ones, which would be 15



### framework maybe and preliminary analysis. Is 16



### that right? 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be 18



### ideal. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. That was 20



### Andrew's comment earlier, that at this point 21



### there is a bunch of fact

- based stuff to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### consider, or at least interpreted fact

- based 1



### stuff. 2



### Yes, Kelley. 3



### MS. KLINE: I'm just wondering if 4



### there is some sort of set of criteria we could 5



### discuss and come up with that would kind of 6



### identify rulemakings that would be best suited 7



### for a negotiated rulemaking. 8



### And I'm not familiar enough with 9



### the ones in the preliminary analysis section 10



### to tell you which ones I think should be in 11



### and out, but it might be something that we 12



### could discuss as a group and come up with some 13



### guidelines for when it would be most 14



### appropriate. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew already 16



### listed one, and all of primary stakeholders 17



### wish to participate. Wouldn't that be one? 18



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we 19



### a re going to know that, though. I mean, it is 20



### going to be hard for us to gauge that. At 21



### some point, you know, even with this idea 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### generation, we are going to need to open it up 1



### to the floor. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Just to

-- I mean, 4



### that 's the whole

-- and to the webinar, just 5



### to see what other people in the room

-- 6



### because not all of us are going to be the 7



### interested parties in, you know, each of these 8



### things. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Kelley, did you 10



### have criteria in mind? 11



### MS. KLINE: No. I was just 12



### thinking that might be a good exercise for the 13



### group, to come up with some

-- 14



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Just a friendly 15



### amendment, Doug, because I think to what you 16



### are putting what I think is

-- all is a high 17



### threshold. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah, ye ah. 19



### MR. deLASKI: Okay. So critical 20



### mass is more

-- 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. deLASKI:

-- it's more of

-- 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: And the other thing 2



### you said, Andrew, was about the

-- having work 3



### underway, having something to work with. 4



### Right? I mean, that was

-- you're looking 5



### skeptical about that also. 6



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: From where I 7



### sit, that's helpful. I mean, it's not

-- I 8



### mean, some folks have more data than I have, 9



### so
-- 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Critical mass among 11



### stakeholders and preliminary analysi s or some 12



### basis for discussion. 13



### MR. COUSINS: These are things 14



### that we may not know until the preliminary 15



### analysis is done. But when I think about that 16



### suggestion, I think about commodities that 17



### have very low commercial volume, very small 18



### manufacturing sector, you know, very

-- I 19



### mean, very small purchase community. I mean, 20



### if it's

-- they might lend itself to

-- for 21



### example, to negotiate a level. So that

-- a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### working group that is going to negotiate. 1



### And I think you were talking 2



### about, well, what would be the criteria? And 3



### I think it's possible to come up with criteria 4



### that would

-- that might make things easier in 5



### the future to at least point something in that 6



### direction. I think it's a good idea. I know 7



### it

-- you know, it may be difficult to do 8



### unless you have some detail from a preliminary 9



### analysis. But I think there could be some 10



### criteria there. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe in the 12



### future. 13



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, Doug, one of 14



### your criteria there is preliminary analysis. 15



### And I think that's probably a great indication 16



### if you're

-- or helpful information if you are 17



### working on a standards rule. However, for 18



### some of these products, like compressors or 19



### pumps or fans or blowers, we are starting from 20



### ground zero. 21



### We need to establish some type of 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### test p rocedure and metric before we can even 1



### run a preliminary analysis to give you any 2



### type of indication. I think it would be very 3



### valuable for people to come to the table prior 4



### to the preliminary analysis stage to help 5



### influence the test procedure and the me asure 6



### discussion. 7



### And you may not come to consensus 8



### by any means, but at least you would have 9



### discussions about what is currently being 10



### done, testing burden, that type of thing, 11



### before the Department just goes off on its own 12



### doing that type of work, putt ing out 13



### potentially a proposed rule and a preliminary 14



### analysis, establishing a metric and then 15



### forming a committee. 16



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Yeah. I agree. 17



### And I think I said earlier a framework or 18



### PTSD. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 20



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: And, you know, 21



### so we have been engaged in private discussions 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### with pumps and fans guys since before the 1



### frameworks were published. 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 3



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: So I think 4



### that's

-- I think you do

-- for new 5



### technologies that are being part of the 6



### process for the first time, absolutely that is 7



### true. And even for products that are subject 8



### to existing standards, you can often make good 9



### progress. You need to. 10



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 11



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Otherwise, you 12



### have the risk of getting a P TSD that yields 13



### results or data that no one has confidence in, 14



### and, therefore, you haven't formed a basis for 15



### good discussions. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Right. As you look 17



### at this list

-- and, actually, you should

-- 18



### as a member of this committee, you should feel 19



### free to weigh in. Do some of these stand out 20



### as being candidates for a working group? Or 21



### it would be a working group with a narrow 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### scope perhaps. 1



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we open it to 2



### the floor, Doug? 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: And then we'l l 5



### come back to the group to discuss? 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Certainly. 7



### The floor is open. 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: No. I mean, like 9



### -- 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Oh. Oh, yeah. 11



### Okay. So we are departing from the standard 12



### practice, and we have two microphones, and 13



### invi te

-- you can
-- this can also serve as 14



### the public comment period I guess, perhaps, at 15



### least in part. And let's hear what 16



### individuals have to say about where ASRAC 17



### might best use this mechanism perhaps to 18



### create a working group. 19



### Please. Say your name for the 20



### record. 21



### MR. MESSNER: Thank you. It's 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Kevin Messner. I'm with the Association of 1



### Home Appliance Manufacturers. I just wanted 2



### to build off of the point that Kelley talked 3



### about on test procedures and standard changes. 4



### And I don't know if this is right for a 5



### working group because of the timing. 6



### We have an issue. I will go into 7



### a little detail here on how we would like to 8



### resolve, but we have seen three examples now 9



### where DOE is going through a process which is 10



### really undercutting the confid ence in the 11



### standards program, which we all think is a 12



### very good program that has a lot of robust 13



### analysis that needs to be

-- have confidence 14



### in. 15



### So what is happening is there is 16



### test procedure changes that are happening that 17



### impact energy. And then th ey use a de minimis 18



### rationale to then not adjust the standard. So 19



### that is something that needs to be thought of 20



### and understood in an open and transparent way, 21



### how the use of de minimis is being applied. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### But then, to even go further, what 1



### is happening is we have as manufacturers this 2



### very key principle of the three

- year lead

- in 3



### time. So when there is a standard being 4



### finalized, the manufacturers have three years 5



### to invest, retool, redesign in their product, 6



### to ensure that when there is a federal 7



### standard becomes

-- the compliance date for 8



### the standard happens, they have three years to 9



### make sure they can sell products in the U.S. 10



### And when a standard change

-- a 11



### test procedure happens in the middle of that 12



### three

- year lead

- in period, it changes energy 13



### and uses de minimis so there is no crosswalk. 14



### It completely undercuts a core process of the 15



### three

- year lead

- in, which

-- 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: The adjustment 17



### period. 18



### MR. MESSNER: Exactly. That 19



### three

- year
-- it's a three

- year lead

- in period 20



### to

-- yes, to redesi gn and

-- redesign your 21



### product. And not only to even add insult to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### injury, it then also prevents the 1



### grandfathering provisions and the safe harbor 2



### provisions, that if you do do a test procedure 3



### in a normal situation where there isn't a 4



### standard change ha ppening, then there is a 5



### grandfathering provision where if you 6



### redesigned a product there is not just a test 7



### procedure that happens every year or every 8



### day, an extreme case, and then your product is 9



### out of compliance because of this

-- this 10



### impacts energy. 11



### So it is a larger issue. AHAM is 12



### working on a proposal to try to talk through. 13



### And we want to

-- we will want to talk to 14



### others to try to gain increased support for 15



### that and ultimately hopefully have DOE 16



### implement it. 17



### I don't know if it's right fo r a 18



### sub

- group, because we are operating on an 19



### immediate issue with a clothes dryer test 20



### procedure. That is the third time that they 21



### have done this for our products that we need 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### to address in a more timely fashion than maybe 1



### what a working group would allo w. 2



### But I just wanted to raise that to 3



### the ASRAC as a potential something to think 4



### about, and maybe in the next meeting we might 5



### have something more of substance to bring to 6



### the table for consideration. 7



### But it is a process that doesn't 8



### just impact AHA M products. It impacts the 9



### whole standards process overall. So any 10



### solution we come up with it would not be just 11



### home appliance specific. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, 13



### Kevin. And that's another pathway, isn't it, 14



### for any association or any interested party to 15



### bring a proposal or something to ASRAC, right? 16



### Rather than ASRAC doing the initiating. So 17



### this is for them to consider. Okay. Thank 18



### you. 19



### Please, sir. Your name for the 20



### record. 21



### MR. ASDAL: Certainly. Bob Asdal, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Executive Director of the H ydraulic Institute. 1



### I'd like to address this issue of the working 2



### group and the criteria for establishing 3



### working groups. 4



### As Andrew mentioned before, I 5



### think the pump industry

-- and we represent

-- 6



### Hydraulic Institute represents the pump 7



### industry

-- would certainly need to consider 8



### how a working group gets established, how 9



### balance is achieved, the extent to which the 10



### industry will be represented. And I think 11



### those are issues that clearly this committee 12



### has, I would think, authority to establish. 13



### An d to the extent that that 14



### authority can permeate across all working 15



### groups, so that there are some consistent 16



### protocols, consistent protocols, so that every 17



### industry affected, every interested party 18



### affected, would know how a working group is 19



### established, would be a very valuable thing 20



### for this group to establish. 21



### Number two, we have had some 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### ongoing negotiations, if you will, private 1



### negotiations with the energy efficiency 2



### advocates for some period of time. The pump 3



### industry has drawn from its limited r esources 4



### a number of experts, and those experts we 5



### would consider as ongoing candidates to be 6



### involved in a

-- if you will, a reg neg 7



### process like this. 8



### So the other question

-- and, 9



### again, an issue for this committee

-- is the 10



### issue of the extent to whi ch an association, a 11



### trade association in this case, can nominate 12



### individuals to the U.S. Department of Energy, 13



### and the extent to which those nominations will 14



### be considered because there is a limited 15



### number of experts in the country on some of 16



### these comple x technologies. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley can respond 18



### to that. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to 20



### attempt to at least. So the way the working 21



### groups get established, ASRAC will vote on 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### whether we think a working group should be 1



### established or not. Assuming the answer is 2



### yes, go forward, the recommendation will get 3



### sent to DOE. 4



### Assuming DOE agrees, it would 5



### publish a Federal Register notice asking for 6



### nominations from everyone, the public. Up to 7



### 25 members can be appointed to the working 8



### group for any given s pecific working group. 9



### One of those most be a DOE representative. 10



### One of those must be an ASRAC representative. 11



### It can be more ASRAC representatives if there 12



### is interest, but those are the minimums. 13



### We will take nominations from 14



### everyone. You may nom inate yourself. You may 15



### nominate an expert, anyone

-- you know, 16



### manufacturers, efficiency organizations, 17



### utilities, states, whomever, can go through 18



### the process. 19



### The first cut at the working group 20



### recommendations, who is going to be on it, 21



### will be done by this committee. This 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### committee will look through it. They will 1



### say, "These people is who

-- this is who we 2



### think should be on the working group," and 3



### they will make that recommendation to DOE. 4



### It does have to be balanced. It 5



### follows the rules of s omething

-- that require 6



### balance

-- 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Representation. 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG:

-- representation, 9



### a variety of different things from different 10



### interested parties, but there is some 11



### assurance there that it would be. But this 12



### group around the table would get the first cut 13



### at taking the

-- you know, everyone that 14



### applied and making the recommendations to DOE 15



### for nominations. 16



### MR. ASDAL: Well, just in follow 17



### up, I think it would be very helpful to get 18



### clarity around that issue of balance. Some of 19



### us in the room are

-- some of us in the room 20



### are standard

- setting organizations, standards

21



### developing organizations. And we operate 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### under ANSI, American National Standards 1



### Institute, protocols if you will for 2



### developing standards. 3



### And they define balance very 4



### clearly of manufacturers, other interested 5



### parties, and users. In this case, it could be 6



### just manufacturers and other interested 7



### parties. But I think for us to consider as an 8



### industry group and as a trade association, as 9



### individual members, to consi der engaging in 10



### this process, we would really need to know the 11



### definitions of balance and how the process 12



### will work in terms of bringing experts from 13



### our community to the table. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15



### MR. ASDAL: Thank you. Thank you. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: P lease, John. And 17



### then I'm going

-- 18



### MR. CASKEY: A real quick 19



### question. So when you say, "Take it to DOE," 20



### what does that really mean? And who says yea 21



### or nay or whatever? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: You can talk. Yes. 1



### John? 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, 3



### ultimately , this committee is supposed to 4



### advise, right? And I don't think

-- so the 5



### recommendations would go to him, and then his 6



### management from there, right, ultimately, if 7



### it was like a standard level or something like 8



### that. So

-- 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: So I have wo rked 10



### with DOE for 20

- plus years, and it's 11



### convoluted. That's the short answer. It 12



### first goes

-- go ahead. 13



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. So we'll 14



### just talk about the transformer thing again. 15



### So, you know, we got a pile of applications, 16



### and you could

-- there was a stack, and so we 17



### could say, "This guy is a manufacturer. This 18



### guy is a steelmaker. This person is a 19



### utility. This person is an environmental 20



### advocate, efficiency advocate. This one is 21



### consumer interest." 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### So we have the different piles 1



### based on the applicants. And so I think the 2



### word "balance" to me means you have 3



### representation from all of the different piles 4



### you collected, and you balance the committee. 5



### So

-- 6



### MR. CASKEY: Yes. I

-- my 7



### question wasn't related to balance per se. It 8



### was tha t Ashley mentioned several times that 9



### something goes to DOE. You know, like a 10



### recommendation for a working group or some 11



### other issue. 12



### But what, does that mean you look 13



### at it and you say yea or nay? Or it has to go 14



### to the council or who else does it go to? 15



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Sure. I mean, 16



### there's lots of different parts of DOE that 17



### looks at the makeup of the committee. I would 18



### certainly be the first level. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: And then it would 20



### go other places. 21



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. It would go 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### up. 1



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, for 2



### proposed standards it is going up. Right? I 3



### mean, something like that for test procedures, 4



### it would probably go to him and/or one level 5



### above him. 6



### MR. CYMBALSKY: And our counsel 7



### looks at it, too, obviously, and

-- 8



### MS. ARMSTRO NG: Counsel. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Dan? 10



### MR. COHEN: The other thing I 11



### would point out

-- this is Dan Cohen from 12



### General Counsel's office. As you may recall, 13



### John, one of the requirements in the 14



### Negotiated Rulemaking Act, which also governs 15



### when we do a nego tiated rulemaking for 16



### standards, or whatever it may be

-- and it's 17



### not just applying to us, that's a government

18



### wide statute

-- is that we have a third party 19



### neutral like Doug who advises the Department 20



### on the establishment

-- first of all, whether 21



### the iss ue could even be negotiated. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### One question that you have to ask 1



### is, is this an issue that parties could get 2



### together and potentially reach a consensus on? 3



### However "consensus" might be defined. You 4



### know, certain issues that's just not possible, 5



### right? T here is just some things you are just 6



### -- there is people of good faith who are never 7



### going to get together on it. So you don't 8



### even bother with those. And that's the first 9



### cut that we actually ask a third party neutral 10



### to look at. 11



### You'll recall in the transformer 12



### situation we hired a law professor from the 13



### University of Connecticut. And he went around 14



### and he first did an assessment. He called all 15



### of the various parties who were interested and 16



### asked a bunch of questions and said, you know, 17



### "Gee, I'm go ing to gather information. You 18



### know, I'm neutral to all of this. I don't 19



### really know anything about it at all. Please 20



### tell me your views." 21



### We have actually

-- there is a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### report similar to what we did for 1



### transformers. We had someone this past summer 2



### do an issue dealing with certification and 3



### enforcement. And I know

-- I saw Dave 4



### Calabresi earlier. That was an issue that 5



### applies to commercial HVAC equipment. 6



### And we had someone go out, a third 7



### party neutral go out and just talk to people 8



### and say, "C ould this even be negotiated?" 9



### Once that decision is made, that it's even 10



### possible to have a negotiation, then it is 11



### figuring out who can actually negotiate. 12



### And, again, we have that

-- the 13



### law professor from the University of 14



### Connecticut advise us on w ho the appropriate 15



### balanced people were. And we would, I'm sure, 16



### do the same thing, right? So that we would 17



### have

-- it wouldn't just be us sitting around; 18



### we would have some neutral party advising on 19



### that process, too. So we didn't

-- you know, 20



### we're no t stacking the deck in one way or the 21



### other. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Tim? 1



### MR. CASSIDY: What I think I heard 2



### the commenter saying was that balance in a 3



### social context is fine. But you need experts 4



### in order to make progress, and there is a 5



### limited number of tho se experts, so that 6



### should be taken into consideration in the 7



### selection of the working group. You know, 8



### that's what I think I heard. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. As someone 10



### who has written these convening reports, 11



### saying yea or nay and who should participate, 12



### a nd typically it's organizations that you 13



### would list, then there is always the potential 14



### to list an organization and for that person to 15



### bring an actual entourage, to have his experts 16



### or her experts sitting right behind him or her 17



### at the table, and for that

-- for information 18



### to flow back and forth, especially in this 19



### kind of a process, readily. 20



### So there ought not to be an 21



### expertise deficit, almost regardless of the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### composition. You know what I'm saying? This 1



### is an opportunity for this information to get 2



### in there. 3



### You're next. 4



### MS. MEYERS: Thank you. Karen 5



### Meyers with Rain Manufacturing. Just I want 6



### to echo the comments really about the 7



### sequencing of events on how this all happens. 8



### If you look at that first one on the list, 9



### the AEDM, if you go back to the list on the 10



### previous page, there is also a rulemaking on 11



### looking at commercial efficiency standards and 12



### maybe staying with EER or IEER. 13



### But, really, before manufacturers 14



### can have a position on that, we need to know, 15



### you know, what the AEDM is goin g to be like. 16



### If you were back on that other list, and you 17



### went down a couple more, there is test 18



### procedures for central air conditioners and 19



### furnaces

-- central air conditioners and heat 20



### pumps. But we have a new standard that is 21



### already set to go into e ffect in January. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### So from a manufacturer's 1



### perspective, once you know what that 2



### efficiency standard is and you start your 3



### product development cycle, it is based upon, 4



### you know, conducting the test to certify your 5



### new products. And if the test standard c omes 6



### in, you know, within that

-- in this instance, 7



### within that five

- year timeframe, it can affect 8



### when you might be able to get your products 9



### out and to meet those deadlines. 10



### We have the same thing happening. 11



### We've got a test procedure on furnace fans, 12



### and then we also have one on residential 13



### furnaces and boilers, and those are kind of 14



### tied together. And then a couple more, and 15



### one that I'd really like to recommend for a 16



### working group, is the test procedure on 17



### residential water heaters, because the NEC A 18



### III standards for that are set to go into 19



### effect in April of 2015, and the test 20



### procedure is a ways out. 21



### So, you know, really, we've got 25 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### months to get a whole new

-- to design a whole 1



### new platform of water heaters that meet a new 2



### standard, but we do n't know what that test 3



### procedure is going to be and how it could 4



### affect that. Yet we are trying to design new 5



### products and be ready for that date, but we 6



### don't really know what the test procedure is 7



### going to be. 8



### So it is very important for the 9



### sequenci ng to

-- you know, to keep this, you 10



### know, rolling in line so that we can all, you 11



### know, get to where we want to be. But it does 12



### make it challenging from a manufacturer's 13



### perspective if these things are disjointed, 14



### which it

-- in some cases they really ar e. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And this, of 16



### course, is complicated because sometimes DOE 17



### is handed their schedule. 18



### MS. MEYERS: Right. And we all 19



### understand

-- 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: For example. 21



### MS. MEYERS:

-- that, but, you 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### know, where possible, and as the A SRAC 1



### Committee meets to define, you know, and maybe 2



### even, you know, set priorities or make 3



### recommendations to DOE on, you know, areas 4



### where, you know, we might could do things to 5



### make things a little bit more efficient as, 6



### you know, has been commented on t oday, that 7



### would be some areas that, as a product 8



### manufacturer, I would really like to see the 9



### committee help to focus their efforts. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Just stay right 11



### there. Given the known constraints

-- you are 12



### familiar with this process

-- 13



### MS. MEYERS : Right. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN:

-- - are you 15



### suggesting that there is some tweaking that 16



### could be done? Or are you suggesting it's 17



### more wholesale and broader? 18



### MS. MEYERS: Well, I probably 19



### don't understand

-- 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: On schedules. 21



### MS. MEYERS: Well , you know, one 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### of the things I think I would like this 1



### committee to do is to look at all of the 2



### current activities that are on DOE's plate for 3



### 2013 and, you know, see, are there some 4



### parallels that we can be running, are there 5



### some ways that we can combin e some activities 6



### or at least move it up and down on the 7



### priority list to get some more

-- some of 8



### these just follow a little bit more common 9



### sense trail. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yep. 11



### MS. MEYERS: So that we could

-- 12



### so, you know, I think it's really focusing t he 13



### priorities and moving things up and down on 14



### the list, and making sure that they are done 15



### in a coordinated fashion. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks very 17



### much. So that's an example of a non

- member 18



### suggesting a possible activity for the 19



### committee to consid er. 20



### Steve Rosenstock. 21



### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, thank you 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### very much. Steve Rosenstock, Edison Electric 1



### Institute. If you could, could you go back to 2



### the previous slide that showed all of the 3



### standards rulemakings? Because that would 4



### help kind of illust rate my comments. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: There we go. 6



### MR. ROSENSTOCK: There you go. 7



### Thank you very much. I have two ideas for 8



### your consideration. I believe they are both 9



### cross
- cutting. 10



### The first one is, if you look on 11



### this chart there is

-- on the bott om line it 12



### says microwave oven standby final rule. As I 13



### recall, the final rule for ovens for the whole 14



### products were done in 2009. They went into 15



### effect April of 2012. 16



### But here is this other standard 17



### out there that is going to affect those ovens 18



### that could be happening, you know, final rule, 19



### which could go into effect

-- I don't know 20



### what year. And, obviously, I know DOE has the 21



### authority to set both I'll say a global 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### appliance standard as well as a

-- I'll call 1



### it a standby standard for lack of bett er 2



### words. 3



### So what we have for many of these 4



### appliances is, going in the future, two test 5



### procedures, two standards, two rulemakings, 6



### and it's the same appliance. Cross

- cutting 7



### issue

-- is there a way to figure out how to 8



### streamline that? 9



### Right now you have doubling of the 10



### process, doubling of the work, doubling of 11



### the, you know, records, et cetera. Is there a 12



### way to

-- because if you have coverage, that 13



### standby covers all products I think from now 14



### on basically, that standby provision of EISA 15



### 2007. 16



### T he second issue I wanted to talk 17



### about was looking at this list especially you 18



### will see products that do compete with other 19



### in the marketplace or are kind of components 20



### of each other. For example, HID lamps

-- 21



### that's the lamps up there. Where it says hig h 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### density discharge, that's the lamps alone, 1



### right? Not the lamps in the ballast. 2



### But I know in EISA 2007 there were 3



### standards set for metal halide ballasts for 4



### certain fixtures. And then there is metal 5



### halide, and then there is the HID

-- adjusted 6



### met al halide lamp fixtures. 7



### Well, they are kind of

-- one 8



### product is a component of the other product. 9



### So one standard could affect the other 10



### product. It doesn't make sense to have 11



### different timing of different things, because 12



### then you might have to redes ign a product for 13



### one standard versus the other standard. 14



### And also, for space heating, I 15



### know you have

-- up there right now is 16



### residential boilers. Well, right now there is 17



### a new standard going into effect for furnaces 18



### in May, but just for oil furnaces . And then 19



### you had the residential boilers last year, and 20



### then you got heat pumps in 2015. But, well, 21



### what about gas furnaces? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### So I think there has been some 1



### market implications of the fact of different 2



### timings for different products that compete 3



### again st each other in the marketplace, and is 4



### there a way, again, in terms of DOE process to 5



### look at that issue, again, as a cross

- cutting 6



### issue because it will have an impact on the 7



### marketplace and will have marketplace 8



### implications. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 10



### M R. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you very 11



### much. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So here 13



### is what I have written. Figure out how to 14



### streamline perhaps duplicative processes

-- 15



### example, microwave standby

-- and evaluate 16



### effective sequencing. 17



### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. But t hey 18



### are kind of

-- they are separate. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: I know. 20



### MR. ROSENSTOCK: They are

-- yes. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sequencing of 1



### competitive products, yes. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. You're next. 3



### MR. IVANOVICH: I'm Michael 4



### Ivanovic h with AMCA International. And I'd 5



### like to express that

-- support for what Bob 6



### Asdal said from Hydraulics Institute about a 7



### concern for the consistency of the working 8



### groups and how those memberships are actually 9



### developed. 10



### You know, I think a primary 11



### concern is that as an industry association it 12



### represents roughly 125 fan manufacturers 13



### selling fans in the United States, you know, 14



### to have only one vote on a committee like that 15



### it could be something diluting, so to speak, 16



### our voice in that regard compare d to, for 17



### example, the other avenues that we might have 18



### available for the consensus agreement that we 19



### -- for example, negotiating with the 20



### environmental advocates. Number one. 21



### Number two is I'd like to

-- one 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### of the members of ASRAC commented that it 1



### wou ld be good to validate the models that are 2



### being used for the cost

- benefit analyses. I'm 3



### curious if there has been any widespread 4



### studies on the costs and impacts on 5



### regulation, not just the energy savings, 6



### because I think that would be a very important 7



### p art of validating those models. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9



### MR. IVANOVICH: And the other 10



### thing is, given the fact that only

-- if you 11



### can't vote by proxy in a consensus process, 12



### that might be a single point of failure. So 13



### if you are a member of the working group and 14



### you can't make that meeting for a very strong 15



### reason, you know, could you send somebody else 16



### to represent your institution for one of these 17



### meetings. I think that's really important. 18



### Given the fact that these are 19



### going to be intense meetings t hat might be 20



### frequent, if there is a problem with that 21



### person attending a particular meeting, could 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### they send a proxy. 1



### Thank you. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley, you

-- Dan, 3



### do you want to respond to that? Okay. Dan, 4



### please. 5



### MR. COHEN: I'm sorry. The last 6



### question about voting by proxy, we just have 7



### to look into the rules under the Federal 8



### Advisory Committee Act and just see if

-- how 9



### we can set that up. 10



### The way it worked in the 11



### transformer negotiation, you had to

-- it was 12



### actually the member who had to vote. I 13



### believe that is just a requirement of the 14



### statute, but I just want to look into it. 15



### MR. IVANOVICH: So it's an 16



### individual member, not an institutional 17



### member. 18



### MR. COHEN: Correct. Yes. But 19



### that individual member is there in a 20



### representative capacity of their interest. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. You're 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### next. 1



### MS. REED: My name is Jennifer 2



### Reed, and I represent Illinois Tool Works. 3



### ITW owns Traulsen. We make commercial 4



### refrigeration equipment. 5



### So I just wanted to weigh in on 6



### the

-- our h ope that there will in fact be a 7



### working group that is tasked with a negotiated 8



### rulemaking on the HVAC commercial 9



### refrigeration equipment process. We think a 10



### lot of work has been done. 11



### There are a lot of outstanding 12



### issues, as the convening report poi nted out, 13



### and I think the only way to get there quickly, 14



### because the agency does have some deadlines 15



### they have to adhere to, which have already 16



### been extended in some cases, is through a 17



### negotiated rulemaking. 18



### So we just wanted to voice our 19



### support for

-- from the commercial 20



### refrigeration equipment industry, from our 21



### perspective that that would be the way to do 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: And do you have 2



### support from

-- describe just in 30 seconds 3



### your level of support. 4



### MS. REED: Traulsen support is 100 5



### perc ent. I will make the point that I

-- 6



### there are people here from AHRI who can speak 7



### for themselves. Traulsen is not a member of 8



### AHRI. So we do have a trade association, and 9



### -- but it is

-- it is not a very technical 10



### one. It is rarely as involved in thes e kinds 11



### of issues. 12



### We certainly

-- if, for example, a 13



### call for nominations went out, we would do all 14



### of that homework in the background, so that 15



### when you got appropriate nominations you knew 16



### how broad that representation was. 17



### But it should be pointed o ut that 18



### one of the reasons we make a point of being 19



### here is because we don't feel like we have an 20



### association, but we make a very

-- we are one 21



### of the largest makers of a certain kind of 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### commercial refrigeration equipment. So we are 1



### affected a lot. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Got you, thank you. 3



### MS. REED: Sure. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Please. Your name. 5



### MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 6



### DYCON/Goodman, now a part of Goodman, DYCON 7



### family. 8



### We would suggest that one of the 9



### primary drivers for what ASRAC should be using 10



### to determine which projects to address would 11



### be which ones would be saving the most 12



### potential energy. Examples would be the 13 13



### SEER rulemaking of 2006, if my calculations 14



### are correct, saved about 0.2 quads per year. 15



### The regional standards that go 16



### into eff ect in '13 and '15 saved about 75 17



### percent of that, about 0.14 quads per year. 18



### The standby off

- mode power for furnaces and 19



### air conditioners saved about three percent of 20



### the total, about 0.005 quads per year. 21



### The PTAC rulemaking went into 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### effect last year in 2012, saved about just a 1



### little over a thousandth of a quad, or one 2



### percent of the 13 SEER. So I guess my 3



### suggestion would be that what the committee 4



### should look at is, which ones can save the 5



### most amount of energy? And that is where the 6



### primary emph asis should be. 7



### We also want to reiterate the 8



### comments made by Karen and Steve about 9



### reducing the overall burden on manufacturers. 10



### And to the point of maybe combining some of 11



### the modes potentially, the standby modes, as 12



### well as the normal operating mode s, and 13



### looking at combining the test procedures, it 14



### seems that there are several times where the 15



### Department

-- DOE test procedure, industry 16



### test procedure, and the DOE industry 17



### conservation standards are not in tune. 18



### And since a lot of industry 19



### participa tes in all of those, it would be

-- 20



### seem prudent to go ahead and put those 21



### together, and maybe even potential of adopting 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### some international standards, some ISO 1



### standards for domestic use. 2



### And as far as the schedules 3



### comment that was made, as far as, you know, 4



### there are some things that you may have to 5



### address this year or early next year. If 6



### those are a small amount of energy that might 7



### be saved, it may be in the best interest to

-- 8



### for a consensus to say

-- we'll say that we'll 9



### keep it as is for now an d move on to the next 10



### big thing. 11



### So that

-- I would suggest that 12



### may be another alternate, too. 13



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 14



### Karim. 15



### DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 16



### You have heard John Mandyck and also the lady 17



### from Traulsen talking about this certification 18



### of commercial products as being an important 19



### rulemaking. And I think we would support that 20



### as well, support this committee putting this 21



### on a high priority, because there is a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### deadline by the end of the year and I think 1



### it's a very important issue for the industry. 2



### As far as process, I think this 3



### committee should consider stakeholders 4



### petitioning this group and asking, you know, 5



### what should be

-- what this committee should 6



### decide as far as moving forward with the 7



### negotiated rulemaking. I th ink you should 8



### establish a process by which everybody or a 9



### group of people could together petition DOE to 10



### do something. 11



### Having these ideas, cross

- cutting 12



### ideas, I think there is one area where I 13



### believe the Department should start thinking 14



### about is with respect to the sampling plan, 15



### the tolerances with respect to testing. And 16



### those issues are not really properly addressed 17



### by DOE in our opinion, and I think it is 18



### something that this committee should look at 19



### and maybe establish a working group. 20



### Thank you

. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Gary? 1



### MR. FERNSTROM: Hi. I'm Gary 2



### Fernstrom representing the California 3



### Investor

- Owned Utilities. And I would really 4



### like to thank the Department and all of you on 5



### this committee for taking what I think is a 6



### major step forward to improving the quality of 7



### these rulemakings. 8



### We have about a dozen 9



### recommendations for you, which I'm not going 10



### to take the time to elaborate on now. We will 11



### send them in in writing, and we would like to 12



### ask you to consider them. 13



### Thank you. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15



### MR. DORIA: Jordan Doria with 16



### Ingersoll Rand. I just want to cast Ingersoll 17



### Rand's support for negotiated rulemaking for 18



### compliance and enforcement for commercial HVAC 19



### and refrigeration. Don't want to belabor 20



### that. A numbe r of people have already pointed 21



### that out. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### One other thing I wanted to just 1



### mention as a concept, when we're considering 2



### sort of broader thematic elements for the 3



### committee to think about, would be that this 4



### is to focus on sort of regulatory activities 5



### w rit large. And most of the discussion has 6



### rightfully been on minimum energy performance 7



### standards, but those are, of course, only one 8



### form that regulation can take to drive energy 9



### efficiency. 10



### I think we are starting to see a 11



### lot more come out on what ce rtain drivers and 12



### behavioral change do for sort of real

- world 13



### energy savings, seeing a lot through Energy 14



### Star portfolio manager and what benchmarking 15



### of buildings is doing for reducing energy 16



### consumption. 17



### I think we'd have some analogs to 18



### draw upon actu ally from the food and beverage 19



### industry in terms of what conveying calorie 20



### information is doing to change consumer 21



### behavior. And I think there is a role for 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### regulation to promote all of that, but it 1



### might be outside of the traditional minimum 2



### energy perf ormance standard framework. But 3



### there is still, again, a role for regulation. 4



### And just as a general point, it 5



### would be worth I think this committee to think 6



### about that a little bit in the future. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 8



### comments from the flo or? 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think that's 10



### a pretty good segue into just reiterating that 11



### point that Roland mentioned at the outset, 12



### since Jordan was nice enough to mention 13



### calorie counting. 14



### Commercial labeling I think is 15



### something that the Department would like this 16



### committee to consider forming a working group 17



### on establishing, you know, or generating ideas 18



### of how the Department should deal with its 19



### commercial labeling authority. 20



### And since Jordan introduced it, 21



### whether he meant to or not, I thought I'd 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### fo llow up with that. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 2



### You're next, please. 3



### MR. LANGILLE: Hi. My name is 4



### Gary Langille. I'm with Dish Network. We're 5



### the third largest video provider in the U.S. 6



### I just wanted to make a comment 7



### that I think that the re are
-- just looking at 8



### the list of products and sort of where things 9



### are headed, that there is a big area that I've 10



### been educated about from advocates in terms of 11



### plug loads in homes and businesses that is 12



### growing very rapidly. 13



### And, unfortunately, tho se devices 14



### aren't very clearly categorized as a product, 15



### you know, Product A, Product B, Product C. 16



### Their features change by day, by software, by 17



### usage, and the power consumption changes over 18



### time as products become combined and computing 19



### gets more advanc ed. 20



### So I would like to see, at some 21



### point in time, perhaps this committee start 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### looking at what are the options, both legally 1



### for DOE, to start looking at possible other 2



### ways of promoting efficiency other than by 3



### some particular product level specificati on, 4



### you know, whether that be an allocation per 5



### home, per size of home, per size of building, 6



### per function, you know, so many watts to 7



### deliver high definition TV to each TV in the 8



### home, something to that effect that is not 9



### related specifically to a product

. 10



### I think it's a very complicated 11



### area, but I think that that's where life is 12



### headed in a lot of product categories. 13



### Thank you. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 15



### Yes, sir. 16



### MR. ASBJORNSON: Norman 17



### Asbjornson, President and founder of AAON, a 18



### manufacturer of commercial heating and air 19



### conditioning equipment. 20



### We have had a business plan of 21



### promoting higher efficiencies, and I look 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### forward to the announcement of the EPAC and 1



### DOE, Title 10, Sections 429, 430, and 431. 2



### When they came out I was sadly disappoi nted by 3



### the lack of clarity and the lack of good 4



### understanding of how to test heating and air 5



### conditioning equipment. 6



### The net result is that was to go 7



### into effect originally on July 1, 2011, and it 8



### was set back to January 1, 2013. It has now 9



### been set ba ck to January 1, 2014, because of 10



### the utter confusion in model numbers and 11



### rating percentages. 12



### We heard earlier from our industry 13



### gentleman, Karim, who spoke for AHRI, the Air 14



### Conditioning Refrigeration

-- or Heating and 15



### Air Conditioning Refrigeration In stitute. 16



### That group has been, for over 60 years, 17



### involved as a trade association with some of 18



### the best minds of our industry setting forth 19



### all of this. And it appears that the 20



### regulations totally ignored what has been done 21



### by the industry. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### I urge you to take advantage of 1



### the existing knowledge and abilities that 2



### already are available and not ignore them and 3



### cause utter confusion. 4



### What has this done to me? I built 5



### a company around high energy efficiency. I 6



### have utter confusion as to where you are going 7



### right now, and all of my competitors

-- some 8



### on the panel here

-- I share

-- I am sure 9



### share somewhat this situation. 10



### The net result is you have set 11



### back the energy efficiencies of our industry 12



### because of this confusion factor. It costs a 13



### lot of m oney to develop a product. When we 14



### don't know where we're going, and we have the 15



### issue going on for years on end, do you know 16



### what that does to anyone trying to advance 17



### energy efficiency? 18



### It pretty much stymies you or 19



### makes you have to decide you might develop 20



### something at great cost and then have to junk 21



### it before you even bring it on the market. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Not an acceptable way to run anything. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 2



### So having heard in this open 3



### comment segment, let's close that now and go 4



### back to the committee, having heard what was 5



### said from the floor. Additional thoughts? 6



### There are a lot of ideas up here in these 7



### charts. Additional thoughts on points of 8



### emphasis? Pathway forward? Next steps 9



### perhaps before long? 10



### Do you want to take restroo m 11



### break? 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it might be 13



### worthwhile

-- I don't know what you guys think 14



### -- but to take a break, think about which ones 15



### -- ASRAC is going to have to whittle them down 16



### to a couple that they may or may not want to 17



### vote on. 18



### Obviously, for ming all of these 19



### working groups would take

-- you know, so 20



### which ones we find most important, but maybe a 21



### couple of minutes to think about that? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So we

-- 1



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: One framing 2



### question is I think some of these, you know, 3



### may be ripe very soon, but aren't ripe here 4



### today. So

-- 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 6



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI:

-- I think one 7



### thing we should think about is when

-- how 8



### soon we want to reconvene to

-- 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 10



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI:

-- you know, 11



### can we take this list, can we refine it, can 12



### we make these a little bit more structured and 13



### then come back in the not

- too

- distant future 14



### and charter additional working groups. I 15



### think we can probably charter at least one 16



### today with what I'm hearing, and maybe two. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 18



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: And then, can 19



### we move on from that and come back and

-- 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: So let's do take a 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### short break, just for 15 minutes. That means 1



### we will convene at five minutes

- - reconvene 2



### at five minutes after three. And when we come 3



### back

-- and several of you can confer during 4



### the break. And when we come back we'll see if 5



### we can identify an issue or two or see how 6



### that evolves for a working group to be 7



### performed. 8



### John? 9



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Yes. I would 10



### just say before we break it would be helpful 11



### to know when we come back which one of these 12



### may have pending deadlines associated with 13



### them. 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think I can get 15



### you that. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: I can write them up 17



### on the

-- in red on the side here or 18



### something. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. That's a 20



### good

- 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Let's 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### take a break. The restrooms are at both ends 1



### of the hall. And if you are going to make

-- 2



### there is a Coke machine on the ground floo r on 3



### the way to the coffee shop on the left. It is 4



### kind of hidden in a nook. 5



### (Whereupon, the above

- entitled matter went off 6



### the record at 2:48 p.m. and 7



### resumed at 3:11 p.m.) 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: The goal for the 9



### remainder of the day is to see if the 10



### committee can figure out something that it 11



### wants to set in motion today, and also to 12



### establish some next steps. 13



### I just had a brief conversation 14



### with Ashley, and she was thinking it might be 15



### useful as we look at this list, and it's a 16



### lengthy list, to separate out the product

17



### specific things first, and your rationale 18



### actually was

-- use the microphone. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so for the 20



### couple that we have that are product

- specific, 21



### or at least rulemaking

- specific, even if they 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### are cost

- cutting, that aren't process

- type 1



### working group issues, I can tell you discrete 2



### deadlines for those that have it, because 3



### that's something John had asked for 4



### previously. 5



### And then, for the ones that are 6



### process
- oriented, you know, the committee can 7



### decide after some discussion whi ch ones they 8



### may or may not wish to tackle. 9



### Open here. Let's

-- 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: So do you want to 11



### -- can you just identify the ones that are 12



### product

- specific? 13



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So let's go with 14



### -- the first one, the HVAC commercial cert. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN : This one here. 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: December 31st of 17



### this year. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: 12/31/13. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: And that is for 20



### Department action. So any working group 21



### established, and its recommendations to ASRAC 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### and ASRAC's recommendations to the Departmen t 1



### would have to be well before that date. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 4



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: One clarifying 5



### question on that. That's final action by end 6



### of the year. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 8



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: So that means 9



### you'd have to i ssue
-- when would you want to 10



### issue a proposed rule by? 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: You know, I think 12



### if we could get

-- if we could

-- that's one 13



### that we would need to vote today, vote out 14



### today, if that's something we want to do. The 15



### Department would then have t o react pretty 16



### quickly in starting to form that working 17



### group. 18



### But, you know, we would probably 19



### like the working group and/or ASRAC's 20



### recommendations by the end of summer/beginning 21



### of fall, to be able to push the proposed rule 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### comment period for final ru le by the end of 1



### the year. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, John. 3



### MR. CASKEY: And what's a 4



### realistic timeframe for getting a working 5



### group set up and approved and notice in the

-- 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Thirty days, 7



### right? 8



### MR. CASKEY:

-- Federal Register 9



### and all of that? 10



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Thirty days. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: That's impressive. 12



### (Laughter.) 13



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We aim to succeed 14



### here. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, okay. 16



### MR. CASKEY: Like 30 calendar 17



### days? 18



### (Laughter.) 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to 20



### attempt to do it as quick as possible. I 21



### think the nomination period is going to be 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### open for roughly 10 to 14 days. So you would 1



### want to keep your eyes out. And if you wanted 2



### to nominate someone, have their bio ready to 3



### go, get that in as quick as possible, and so 4



### w e can move on it. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Use the microphone, 6



### please. Thank you. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We could talk 8



### about process, why

-- yes. The idea was that 9



### some part of ASRAC would have a first cut at 10



### recommendations to the committee. Now, I 11



### don't know that that means we need to convene 12



### in person, right? We could probably do that 13



### over the phone and/or distribute a

-- 14



### MR. PETERSON: It could be a 15



### webinar. 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Good, good. 18



### Others? Ashley? Fans and pumps? 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So those 20



### just started, so roughly three years from now. 21



### Same thing

-- yes, those are both the same. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### A little less for the test procedure, but

-- 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. High energy 2



### -- standards, that's cross

- cutting, that's 3



### process. 4



### MS. ARMSTRO NG: So test procedure 5



### on water heaters is also

-- it's on the right, 6



### the next one. 7



### So this one is complicated, 8



### because the energy bill in December of this 9



### past year requires the Department to come up 10



### with some type of uniform descriptor. So this 11



### one is also end of the year, December 31st. 12



### However, there is a second part of 13



### it that requires, once a test procedure and 14



### metric is established, there is some 15



### consideration given to conversion of the old 16



### metric to the new metric. That is on a little 17



### bit lo nger timeframe, and that is where I 18



### think the Department could really use some 19



### input, because that is going to require 20



### testing to be run, product

- specific type 21



### things. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### And so actually working on the 1



### test procedure, because, you know, a lot of 2



### people have been working on that test 3



### procedure for about eight years with ASRAC 4



### now. If actually working on that test 5



### procedure isn't feasible in that timeframe, I 6



### think that conversion is really important for 7



### maybe this committee to consider. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay . Thank you. 9



### Are there other

-- does HVAC, commercial 10



### refrigeration

-- 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's 12



### most of the ones that have deadlines up there. 13



### Most of the other ones are process

- oriented 14



### or potential explorations for the Department 15



### on new territ ory, whether it be commercial 16



### labeling or I'm going to call plug loads, how 17



### we kind of handle consumer electronics. The 18



### rest to me are mostly process at least. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Which ones? In 21



### terms of standard levels or test proce dure 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### issues? Both. Okay. So we just had a 1



### question about

-- so CRE, it's supposed to be 2



### done by now, but the NOPR is at OMB. So I 3



### would say that we could form a committee to

-- 4



### or we could consider forming a subcommittee to 5



### look at that, but the propos ed levels are at 6



### OMB right now. Yes. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So

-- 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: One other thing, 9



### Kelley, to your point earlier about potential 10



### test procedure correlations on it, if there 11



### are certain test procedures where we know 12



### there are issues, I w ould propose that you ask 13



### that those test procedures form working 14



### groups. 15



### We can do more of a cross

- cutting 16



### thing with process, as you and John kind of 17



### asked for, in terms of guidance and timing and 18



### how the Department does that. But if we know 19



### there are certain test procedures that have 20



### issues, I would say let's go ahead and try to 21



### form a working group for those, whether it be 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### at this or subsequent meetings. Yes. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: John. 2



### MR. CASKEY: So far, we have this 3



### HVAC commercial certification an d enforcement, 4



### and then we also have behind you commercial 5



### and industrial pumps and commercial and 6



### industrial fans and blowers. Are those in any 7



### way related or not? 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 9



### MR. CASKEY: Okay. 10



### MS. ARMSTRONG: They will be one 11



### day, but n ot until

- 12



### MR. CASKEY: So is this HVAC more 13



### like packaged units? 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. It's like 15



### rooftop air conditions, commercial furnaces, 16



### those types of things. 17



### MR. CASKEY: All right. 18



### MS. ARMSTRONG: And then 19



### refrigeration equipment. 20



### MR. CA SKEY: Okay. 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Kelley. 1



### MS. KLINE: Actually, just a 2



### question on the water heater. I'm trying to 3



### keep the different threads straight here. 4



### There is the uniform descriptor. 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 6



### MS. KLINE: There is the test 7



### procedure, and then there is also the 8



### conversion piece, right? So it would be

-- I 9



### guess we would just have to frame up what the 10



### workgroup would be

-- what is the scope of the 11



### workgroup effort, right? 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So the 13



### Department 's efforts right now, we have 14



### consolidated the uniform descriptor 15



### requirements and the test procedure in one. 16



### We will be addressing that as one. Subsequent 17



### to that, we will be dealing with the 18



### conversion factor. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: And what is the 20



### timeframe for that? Are you pressed? 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: One year for the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### test procedure and what falls under this 1



### uniform descriptor, and then there is a little 2



### longer

-- I don't know the date off the top of 3



### my head, but a little longer for the 4



### conversion factor. 5



### MR. COHEN: By the way, that was 6



### one year from the date in December, right? 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So end of 8



### the year. 9



### MS. KLINE: So when you were 10



### saying a minute ago what the Department could 11



### really use some help on, were you talking 12



### about the firs t part or the converted

-- 13



### MS. ARMSTRONG: The conversion. 14



### MS. KLINE:

-- this conversion 15



### factor, okay. 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: In my opinion. I 17



### mean, it's definitely open, but

-- and then 18



### you mentioned something earlier which kind of 19



### went under the radar. I was surprised that 20



### Kevin didn't bring it up, but

-- so dryer test 21



### procedure. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Right now we have a dryer test 1



### procedure open for automatic terminations. 2



### And we've had a lot of data and a lot of 3



### comments about how that dryer test procedure 4



### may should be changed over time. 5



### The Department has left some of 6



### those issues on the table. I don't know that 7



### it's reasonable to think that we could form a 8



### subcommittee to finish the open rule right now 9



### because it's on a pretty quick timeline, but 10



### some of the larg er issues, whether it be load 11



### size, low composition, real use factors, other 12



### things that we might leave on the table, 13



### potentially could be ripe for a separate 14



### working group with more of a long

- term 15



### overhaul of a dryer test procedure in mind. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN : Go ahead. 17



### MR. MESSNER: What I was talking 18



### about on the larger test procedure changes 19



### impact standard

-- 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I know what you 21



### are going to

-- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. MESSNER:

-- dryers is the

-- 1



### kind of the tip of the spear. You did two 2



### other test proced ures before that, so I don't 3



### -- working through that is something that we 4



### negotiated as part of our agreement to deal 5



### with auto termination. 6



### But having that happen in the 7



### middle of a three

- year lead

- in period, and 8



### trying to cram it in, to us it's kind of 9



### putting a square peg in a round hole. So 10



### there is a larger issue on the whole auto 11



### termination, but the way the DOE is going down 12



### it right now it goes into all the problems 13



### with the test procedure change

-- 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 15



### MR. MESSNER:

-- and the de 16



### minimis and all of that. 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm separating 18



### those two issues, right? I get your point. 19



### MR. MESSNER: Yes. They're 20



### together for us, so it causes problems for a 21



### working group to get into that. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, I mean, 1



### but to your point of wanting DOE to take a 2



### look

-- I think we would

-- the idea would be 3



### to form a working group to long haul take a 4



### look at that. 5



### MR. ECKMAN: Yes. I think it's 6



### just inherent in the testing process, that 7



### dryers is just iconic at the mom ent. But it 8



### is true for all of the white goods and all of 9



### the equipment where we don't have really solid 10



### duty cycle information or load profile 11



### information to do the costing, the pricing of 12



### the kilowatt hours or the gas purchases. 13



### And, you know, that's just basic 14



### information that feeds any of the models. And 15



### you make it up as you go when you find a data 16



### source, but you don't have any idea whether 17



### it's statistically representative or not. 18



### We bring you something from 19



### Northwest. We eat a lot of granol a. It may 20



### not be

-- 21



### (Laughter.) 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### -- with the rest of the places in 1



### the world. So, you know

-- 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Most of you in this 3



### room have a lot of experience in these plant 4



### standards and processes and test procedures, 5



### and this committee has taken a while to get 6



### underway. So there has been some discussion 7



### leading up 'til today thinking about what 8



### might be launched soon, today perhaps. 9



### So as you look at this list, what 10



### bubbles forward? What are the items that you 11



### think

-- that you might wish to pu t to a vote 12



### today to establish a working group? 13



### Kelley? 14



### MS. KLINE: It seems like we might 15



### need a process for a fairly quick follow on 16



### some of these, because I think a lot of them 17



### could benefit from a little better framing and 18



### maybe further definition, so
-- 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking that 20



### DOE would take the initiative. If you 21



### selected one of these or several of these, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### then that would

-- they would go back and 1



### they'd write something up. They would scope 2



### it a little bit, they would describe it a 3



### l ittle bit, they would talk about the 4



### deadline, you know

-- I'm just guessing

-- a 5



### variety of things like this. 6



### Ashley, help me here. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I hear DOE, and 8



### I'm a DOE rep, so I'm

-- 9



### (Laughter.) 10



### -- Ashley, right? No, I think we 11



### could

-- to Doug's point, or to Kelley's 12



### point, the committee could do it. We could do 13



### it. I think there's a couple we could 14



### probably

-- so there's one obvious one, right? 15



### I mean, the commercial cert is 16



### something I think the Department or this 17



### committee should de cide whether it wants to 18



### act on today, because that one, really, today 19



### is our opportunity to start that process if we 20



### want to make that

-- if anyone wants to make 21



### that deadline in a realistic manner. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: The HVAC commercial 1



### certification and e nforcement. Done. Okay. 2



### John? 3



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Concur with 4



### that. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew? 6



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: That's one that 7



### we should

-- 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: I think we 10



### should go ahead and charter that one today. 11



### MR. BRO OKMAN: Yes. John? 12



### MR. CASKEY: I mean, I'm neutral 13



### on that particular issue. But just when I try 14



### and think through the pragmatic sort of time 15



### schedule, I mean, I think if we are going to 16



### spend all of March basically to set up the 17



### working group, maybe, you know, April to try 18



### and get a meeting set

-- a face

- to

- face 19



### meeting, and then maybe May to try and get a 20



### chairperson selected for the working group and 21



### to start making progress and to tell them

-- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### you know, to give them what their options are, 1



### for them to develop a scope, for them to 2



### develop like how they are going to operate, 3



### and all that sort of stuff, it just seems like 4



### between, you know, May and July to have an 5



### answer back to you, or August, that has come 6



### through us

-- this group seems like it's 7



### rea lly pushing it. 8



### I mean, I don't want to undermine 9



### the possibility for success. I mean, if you 10



### guys that are experts really think you can 11



### have success in that abbreviated time, then 12



### I'm

-- you know, I'm happy for you, but it's 13



### like

-- it just seems like in the case

-- 14



### well, you know, just for us to get in this 15



### room took quite a bit of while. So I'm trying 16



### to put in a little bit of anticipation of 17



### delays along the way. 18



### So is it realistic to get any 19



### meaningful results by, you know, July time 20



### period? 21



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: I think it is 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### if we prescribe some check

- in points. So, in 1



### other words, we could ask the working group to 2



### file status reports with us, which provides 3



### gates by which they have to operate. So 4



### that's one way to try to keep a schedule on 5



### tra ck. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Tom. 7



### MR. ECKMAN: Yes. It seems to me 8



### even if they don't reach consensus, because 9



### they don't have enough time to drive there, 10



### you can probably move the marble a little 11



### further down the floor, just by getting 12



### together to talk about i t, to find out what 13



### the real issues are and queue them up gives 14



### DOE a better chance to get the closure in a 15



### reasonable way at the end of the year, if you 16



### have already thrashed through some of the 17



### issues and said, "We can resolve these, but we 18



### can't resolve these. You're going to have to 19



### make a call." Even that would help the 20



### process along I think. 21



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: I agree. And 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### this isn't a new issue, so there has been

-- 1



### this has been around for three years. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: So if the committee 3



### today decides that they would like to vote to 4



### create a working group on that issue, then, 5



### say, by end of February, end of March, you've 6



### got your committee composed, and in that same 7



### timeframe hopefully you can find a chair. 8



### And so, then, beginning in April 9



### -- analysis is already underway, right? 10



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, unlike 11



### standards, there is no

-- I mean, there is not 12



### going to be analysis. It is going to be the 13



### Department sitting at the table with 14



### manufacturers and advocates and other 15



### interested parties, ju st discussing what 16



### viable ways for commercial certification, what 17



### -- 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: I see. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG:

-- all the 20



### variations in products, what could work. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: I see. So this 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### could commence in April or May, and you would 1



### do periodic me etings, once a month say, 2



### something like that, and, John, you and Tom 3



### were saying progress probably. 4



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Right. Well, I 5



### would think it would be, you know, mid to late 6



### June should be the first progress report to 7



### the ASRAC. And then, you k now, I think we 8



### should require or shoot for a recommendation 9



### by September 1. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we have 11



### several individuals who have spoken on behalf 12



### of creating the working group, and that is the 13



### one HVAC commercial certification and 14



### enforcement. We have laid out a timeline 15



### here. We know it is going to require some 16



### additional scoping. 17



### Other thoughts on that before we 18



### see if the committee wishes to make a 19



### decision? 20



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Follow on to 21



### John's question, John Caskey's question, is 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### tha t, you know, can it be done in the 1



### timeframe

- if we're starting

-- we're not 2



### starting from a standstill on this. 3



### There was a convening report 4



### written last summer by DOE's consultant, or 5



### actually by a DOE staff

-- by someone

-- a 6



### government staff perso n, so there is a whole 7



### -- there is a body of work. And you guys have 8



### been going back and forth for some period of 9



### time. 10



### So at some level this is not a 11



### brand

- new activity. We are just moving into a 12



### forum in which it can be addressed I think 13



### more effecti vely. 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We just need a new 15



### -- potentially a new solution. 16



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Yes. So

-- 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: If that's the best 18



### way to state it. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: So I think the 21



### odds of success are

-- I think you c an do more 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### -- at a minimum, we will get

-- we will move 1



### the ball. We may very well be able to reach 2



### consensus. I think it's a distinct 3



### possibility. I hope it is. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So are you 5



### ready to decide whether you wish to create 6



### this working group? Okay. Let's

-- then 7



### let's take a vote. All those who wish to 8



### create this working group and

-- anybody that 9



### -- that's the way

-- I could do it either way. 10



### MR. ECKMAN: You're trying to 11



### bully them into

-- 12



### (Laughter.) 13



### Let's see if there's not consensus 14



### first. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Anybody that wishes 16



### to dissent, anybody that does not agree with 17



### working

-- creating this working group, please 18



### say so now. No one is speaking, so this 19



### working group has now been decided upon. We 20



### have a consensus; we hav e unanimity. 21



### And, congratulations, you have 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### made your first substantive discussion

-- 1



### decision. 2



### (Applause.) 3



### And I think it's fairly obvious

-- 4



### we don't need to repeat what DOE is going to 5



### do in response to this. Okay. We've got a 6



### convening report. We've got

-- you've got 7



### next steps, and we'll follow on from it. 8



### Okay. So that's good, and that's 9



### -- 10



### MR. PETERSON: Can we get a 11



### confirmed deadline for that, so we

-- 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: So, John, do you 13



### want to start? You already said a report by 14



### Sept ember 1. Progress reports on some 15



### interval, every month or every other month. 16



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: I would think a 17



### substantive progress report mid to late June. 18



### Should we pick a date or

-- 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I would pick a 20



### date. 21



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK:

-- ju st say by 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### June 26th? 1



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think your 2



### timeline is fine. As long as it's not a 3



### weekend. 4



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: School's out. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: I've got a 6



### calendar. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: There you go. 8



### It's a Wednesday, according to John. So while 9



### - - I think it's a Wednesday, but I think we're 10



### okay. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: June 26th is a 12



### Wednesday. 13



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So something for 14



### you to consider is whether we want to pick the 15



### -- or at least gauge interest on the people in 16



### ASRAC that want to be part of th at committee 17



### here, just to get that one out of the way, 18



### too. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. That's a good 20



### point. So thank you for

-- I should have done 21



### that. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Is there anyone

-- who on this 1



### committee would like to serve as a member on 2



### that working group? We wou ld like to have at 3



### least one. John will, and also Kent. Okay. 4



### So you've got that, Jeremiah? Yes, John and 5



### Kent will both serve. Excellent. Thank you. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Is that enough

-- 7



### enough of deadlines for now, timelines? Yes. 8



### MR. PETERSON: Wh en is the final 9



### report due? 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: September 1. 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: September 1. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. From 13



### the working group, and then presumably ASRAC 14



### will turn that around rather quickly. Okay. 15



### So good. Is there another issue 16



### up ther e that you would like to consider 17



### creating a working group for? The two

-- the 18



### other two that are circled, fans and pumps, 19



### but it's a three

- year cycle. And this one

-- 20



### test procedure on residential water heaters, 21



### and, as Ashley said, perhaps the conversi on of 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the old metric, that second activity, might be 1



### the one that would bear the most fruit. 2



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: It seems to me 3



### -- you know, I'm not an expert in the 4



### commercial

-- or in the water heater test 5



### method issues, but it

-- can you address that 6



### t opic until you address the first topic? 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: You need to 8



### address

-- you would need to probably have a 9



### proposed rule out first, right? So at least 10



### you are seeing what the Department is thinking 11



### for its new test procedure and/or metric, 12



### scope o f coverage type issues. So

-- 13



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: It just strikes 14



### me as something that we should table for the 15



### moment. 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Table for the next 17



### one with fans and pumps. 18



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Right. 19



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Near

- term issues 20



### -- 21



### CO

- CH AIR deLASKI: Right. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG:

-- not like a year 1



### from now, but near

- term potentials. But, yes, 2



### that's probably a good idea. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Table fans 4



### and pumps, and table test procedure on 5



### residential water heaters. 6



### Other thoughts on w hat is up here? 7



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Well, the one 8



### that you just made, in addition, is the one 9



### where commercial labeling has been raised a 10



### couple of times. You know, I hear some 11



### enthusiasm from the Department in getting 12



### guidance on this topic. 13



### I don't k now how it's defined. So 14



### what the precise work task is of the committee 15



### to me is not fully formed in my mind. But it 16



### strikes me as being potentially quite a 17



### valuable area for discussion. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Can you describe 19



### what is underway with this, or th e thought 20



### process? 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We put an RFI out, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### so the working group could look at the 1



### comments from the RFI. I think the Department 2



### is looking for input as to what it should do 3



### next into this space. 4



### As Roland mentioned in his like 5



### outset commen ts, you know, this is something 6



### seemingly, he said, the White House is 7



### interested in. And what we don't want to 8



### happen is them to ask for an answer. 9



### We would like to have input from 10



### you guys and/or a working group about what the 11



### Department

-- how shou ld the Department handle 12



### its authority with respect to commercial 13



### labeling, some problems for which it clearly 14



### spells out that we have to come up with a 15



### labeling rule for, so I think those would be 16



### the issues. It is more open

- ended definitely 17



### than coming out with a number, but equally as 18



### valuable. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: John. 20



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Are you talking 21



### about equipment labeling or building labeling? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: Equipment. 1



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Can you

-- do 2



### you have the authority to do building 3



### lab eling? 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Just equipment. 5



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Without 6



### building labeling it becomes I think an 7



### imperfect exercise. 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we get part of 9



### the way there? I mean, I guess that's the 10



### question. I mean, could there be a working 11



### gr oup to kind of flesh out these types of 12



### issues, pros and cons, as the Department tries 13



### to understand where it's going on in this 14



### space? 15



### Could you help us? Could the 16



### working group and ASRAC help inform that 17



### decision? 18



### MR. COHEN: Or you could tell us 19



### it 's meaningless. 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I mean, 21



### that's another option. The costs are X and 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the value is Y and

-- 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Kent, go ahead. 2



### MR. PETERSON: Actually, I'm just 3



### trying to understand this better, but you 4



### currently oversee residential equipment 5



### rating, right? Labeling. 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: The Federal Trade 7



### Commission does. 8



### MR. PETERSON: The Federal Trade 9



### Commission. Are you thinking that this kind 10



### of does the same thing on the commercial side? 11



### Is that

-- 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't t hink we 13



### know. I think the question is open

- ended. We 14



### just

-- we are
-- for residential, the 15



### authority goes to FTC for the most part. And 16



### then, for commercial, the authority lies with 17



### us. And we haven't really ventured into this 18



### space, with the exceptio n of a limited label 19



### for motors and like CC numbers and nameplates 20



### and that kind of stuff. 21



### But other than that, it's, well, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### what should we do? It's an open issue. 1



### MR. PETERSON: So we are in the 2



### conceptualization phase. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We are. You think 4



### that's fair, right? 5



### MR. PETERSON: And that could be 6



### cool. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's pretty 8



### much what the RFI laid out. 9



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: I think none of 10



### us are thinking FTC. 11



### (Laughter.) 12



### No one has that in mind. 13



### MR. BROOKMAN: Well, l et me ask a 14



### question before we vote. Does anybody on the 15



### committee wish to participate in a working 16



### group on that, just so we have a

-- Tom does 17



### and

-- okay, and also Timothy. So we have two 18



### volunteers already for that. So should we 19



### take a vote on this, see whether we want to 20



### launch this? Tell me yes or no. 21



### Go ahead, John. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. CASKEY: Another idea. Are 1



### there things that we could effectively work on 2



### as a
-- the ASRAC and respond to and work with 3



### DOE on without necessarily setting up a 4



### working gro up? Particularly if there is a 5



### variety of good members here that want to 6



### participate with something like this. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Dave? 8



### DR. HUNGERFORD: I was just 9



### following on that

-- yeah, it seems like that 10



### would be an appropriate function of th is 11



### committee, to at least go down that initial 12



### road of scoping what that working group might 13



### look at, because we are

-- this commercial 14



### labeling is an obvious example of

-- we could 15



### think through things like, well, who is 16



### intended

-- whose behavior is inte nded to be 17



### affected by this label, as a sort of starting 18



### question, those sorts of issues, and then 19



### decide whether it then should go to

-- go 20



### through the trouble of developing a working 21



### group, if we can't resolve it. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 1



### DR. HUNGERFORD: And what kind of 2



### -- sorts of issues should be considered. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Steven. 4



### MR. COUSINS: No. I just want to 5



### echo what David said. To me, that makes a 6



### great deal of sense, to put some framework 7



### around this before making a decision, you 8



### k now, of chartering a working group. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. And, 10



### ASRAC, if you were to take this up, would you 11



### expect everyone around the table to 12



### participate or select members or in and out? 13



### What would be your expectation? Would there 14



### be one? 15



### M R. COUSINS: I would have the 16



### expectation that all of us would

-- because we 17



### all have sensitivities and representation at 18



### different areas, you know, within

-- 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 20



### MR. COUSINS:

-- you know, the 21



### appliance sector. I think input from ev eryone 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### would be critical. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Could you say what 2



### you would expect as kind of the workflow or 3



### timetable would be for a thing like this, off 4



### the top of your head? 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know that 6



### I have one in mind, but I think if ASRAC

-- 7



### yo u know, by the time we meet in person next, 8



### it would seem reasonable that we would at 9



### least have some ideas of what we think the 10



### scope could be and whether we want to actually 11



### form a technical working group to deal with 12



### some of the more detailed type issue s. 13



### Otherwise, it would seem it would linger on 14



### forever. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Are you thinking 16



### that in the interim you would exchange some 17



### paper and there would be a webinar or two, and 18



### then you'd meet face to face, and what kind of 19



### a timeframe? 20



### MS. ARMSTRON G: Well, I think we 21



### are required to meet twice a year in person. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### That doesn't preclude us from meeting more in 1



### person if we wanted to, but at least we would 2



### meet twice a year. 3



### So I think at least in the six

4



### month timeframe we would do idea generating , 5



### scope narrowing, whether it be fleshing out 6



### this or some other ideas of the list, and then 7



### at the next group we could actually vote on 8



### more working groups that we would potentially 9



### charter. Does that seem reasonable? 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11



### MS. ARMSTRO NG: I mean, the RFI 12



### one is hard because we have already gotten a 13



### lot of comments, right? And the issues were 14



### pretty wide across the board, so I don't know 15



### if this committee wants to take on the task of 16



### looking at all of those and kind of weeding 17



### those an d seeing or if we actually want to 18



### charter a working group to do that. 19



### It is kind of how you see, you 20



### know

-- whether you see yourself as trying to 21



### flesh out some of these more overarching type 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### issues, or getting into the details quite a 1



### bit of some of the

-- 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: John? 3



### MR. CYMBALSKY: So

-- right. So 4



### the comment period is ending March 20th, I 5



### believe is the date. And as Ashley said, we 6



### have a lot of comments already. So I guess 7



### what you all should be considering is, do you 8



### want to char ter a group of people to digest 9



### the comments and plan a path forward? Or do 10



### you want me to do that? 11



### So I think that's the question. 12



### By "me," I don't mean me personally. 13



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: What product 14



### categories are you talking about? 15



### MR. CYMBALSKY : The commercial 16



### labeling. 17



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Oh, the 18



### commercial labeling. 19



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. So, you 20



### know, like Ashley pointed out, a good

-- you 21



### know, I understand you guys made really good 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### points, but I think that shouldn't preclude 1



### you from ma ybe chartering a subcommittee to 2



### form, and that you form one now in the 3



### anticipation of digesting the comments come 4



### March 20th. You've got the people that are 5



### formed to do that. 6



### Just a thought. Because otherwise 7



### we are going to do it anyway here at t he 8



### Department, so

-- 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: You are going to 10



### receive all of the comments, you are going to 11



### sift and sort, and you are going to write 12



### something akin to a

-- 13



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We are just going 14



### to decide what to do. 15



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. We are 16



### just going to go forward and say, well, based 17



### on these comments, this is what we think is a 18



### good commercial labeling strategy. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: And you are going 20



### to do that in what timeframe? 21



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Sometime after 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### March 20th, so

-- 1



### MR. BROOKM AN: And so that would 2



### provide time for ASRAC to consider what you 3



### have come up with potentially? 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we 5



### would

-- we would present our proposal prior 6



### to issuing a proposal, to the extent we decide 7



### to do something, to ASRAC first

. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Uh

- huh. 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be more 10



### that I think it was cued up as an issue for 11



### the committee to decide whether a working 12



### group could be formed to inform that position 13



### of whether to move forward and/or not in light 14



### of the RFI comm ents and a variety of other 15



### opinions that need to be

-- 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: They could consider 17



### the RFI comments. They could add to the RFI 18



### comments. And you wouldn't feel compelled to 19



### address it immediately, if you had a working 20



### group working on it. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Right. I mean, to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### me, that seems like a lot of

-- this committee 1



### could definitely commit to doing that. It's 2



### just that's a lot of details for just labeling 3



### when we have

-- it seems we have a lot of 4



### open
- ended issues to deal with as well, or 5



### po tentially consider. 6



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: So just my two 7



### cents on this is that it does strike me as 8



### being a workgroup activity as opposed to us 9



### delegating ourselves as that workgroup. I'm 10



### not going to read all of those comments, for 11



### one. 12



### And it strikes me that the 13



### Department then put out the RFI, and then the 14



### thought then is that then leads to some sort 15



### of plan, right? And they are going to develop 16



### a plan, so the question is, they are asking 17



### for a workgroup to help them figure out what 18



### that plan should look like. 19



### And I don't think that this group 20



### was conceived of as the folks who would

-- we 21



### weren't selected to be that

-- have that 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### expertise. So it strikes me that we should 1



### put it out to a comment, put it out in a 2



### Federal Register notice, and they can
-- we 3



### should form up a group that has expertise in 4



### this area to

-- that would consist of a couple 5



### of us and also folks who have expertise. 6



### The products that are affected are 7



### all of the commercial products potentially, or 8



### it's the whole scope in Secti on B or C, 9



### however you want to letter it. 10



### MR. CYMBALSKY: That's right. So, 11



### and I think

-- we don't have to stop at just 12



### two ASRAC members on this. So if

-- you know, 13



### we named two, but we can have five. This is 14



### not like a contentious rulemaking where

-- you 15



### know, so don't feel compelled to stop at two 16



### if there is more interest. 17



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: But I want to 18



### be clear that that's a plan, so then the plan 19



### that the Department would come up with, I 20



### mean, you ultimately may decide to address 21



### different p roducts differently, of course, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### because they are going to have to be addressed 1



### given their own circumstances. 2



### But you're looking for some basic 3



### framework to think about this responsibility 4



### you have for commercial labeling. 5



### MR. CYMBALSKY: The basic, li ke 6



### what should be on the label. I mean, 7



### questions like that, you know. 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And for 9



### different products, does it provide different 10



### values? So is there no value for certain 11



### products? Is there a lot of value for other 12



### products? Does i t provide a means of tracking 13



### things that may go into large type equipment, 14



### like components of other types of equipment? 15



### I mean, just types of things to think about. 16



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: Well, given the 17



### concerns over the FTC label over the years, I 18



### think the chance to get in on the ground floor 19



### to try to influence the plan seems like one 20



### that many people would jump at. So it seems 21



### like a good opportunity to me. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: So at least half of 1



### this group has spoken on behalf of considering 2



### creating a working group for commercial 3



### labeling. Shall we put that to the test? 4



### Shall I move the question and see whether you 5



### wish to create a working group? 6



### John? 7



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: I kind of feel 8



### like I need to learn more, because I don't 9



### know what we are rea lly chartering. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: So

-- 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: John, describe what 13



### it would be useful for you to obtain. 14



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, it is 15



### kind of like, do you want to boil the ocean? 16



### And so I think there needs to be som e
-- some 17



### definitive ideas on what type of

-- you know, 18



### what are we

-- who are we trying to

-- a 19



### simple question like, who is the label trying 20



### to influence

-- 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK:

-- I think 1



### would be good to know before we try to ch art a 2



### working group. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm looking

-- 4



### John and Ashley, if the Department provided 5



### more information to ASRAC, to the members, and 6



### in some short span of time, say a month or so, 7



### they decided that, yes, indeed, this made 8



### sense to

-- based on what you came forward 9



### with, to create a working group, they could do 10



### that via some electronic means or some sort of 11



### a survey mechanism, right? But that

-- your 12



### timetable is you want to move quickly on this. 13



### No? 14



### MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, to 15



### Andrew's poin t, I think, again, the comment 16



### period ends March 20th. And it's a chance to 17



### get thinking at the beginning, not in the 18



### middle. So it is up to you all. I mean, 19



### again, I'm not a voting member here, but I

-- 20



### you know, I

-- it tells

-- and, you know, to 21



### John 's question, what are we trying

-- who are 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### we trying to influence, I think, you know, you 1



### design a label based on who you are trying to 2



### influence. 3



### So maybe the first question to the 4



### group to consider is, you know, so who are we 5



### trying to influence and wh at should the

-- I 6



### mean, all of those questions are on the table. 7



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: But even a more 8



### basic question

-- and I'm not a labeling 9



### expert

-- but labels could have multiple 10



### purposes. Right? You can show that it's 11



### compliant, you could try to p rovide 12



### information to the end user, you can try to 13



### provide information to the purchaser, to a 14



### specifier. 15



### You've got lots of different 16



### potential purposes here, and I'm sure I 17



### haven't even begun to list them. So the first 18



### question is, what are the potenti al benefits 19



### of a label? And how would you

-- and then, 20



### given those potential benefits, how would you 21



### structure it? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### So, again, you have to pull 1



### together some labeling experts to

-- 2



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Right. And to 3



### go along with that, what are the burd ens and 4



### costs of labeling? 5



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Absolutely. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: I saw John first, 7



### then Steve. Go ahead. 8



### MR. CASKEY: I think I'm on the 9



### fence a little bit. I mean, I wholeheartedly 10



### support a working group being established to 11



### basically suppor t what John and Ashley would 12



### need to do with regard to reviewing all of the 13



### responses they have gotten from the RFP. 14



### But I'd like to see those results 15



### back summarized in some way or consolidated or 16



### maybe with some recommendations, but I guess 17



### at that poi nt then I'd like to be able to see 18



### what the preliminary result is, and then start 19



### to develop a strategy going forward. 20



### You know, so I would hate

-- for 21



### me personally, I'd hate to not be on the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### working group and then miss out on any 1



### opportunity for input, but then I agree that I 2



### don't think we need the whole ASRAC group to 3



### review, you know, 2,000 comments or something 4



### like that. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. 6



### Steve. 7



### MR. COUSINS: Yeah. I'm somewhat 8



### on the fence here, too, because

-- and I know 9



### the RFP t hat is out there now, you've got a 10



### number of comments that have come in. The 11



### comments are around the

-- just a general idea 12



### of labeling. 13



### I would expect those comments to 14



### be all over the place. And if we form a 15



### working group, the working group is going to 16



### end up trying to figure out, as you pointed 17



### out, John, you know, what part of the ocean do 18



### we boil. 19



### One of the things

-- and since 20



### there are so many commodities here that are 21



### being represented, I would question for some 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### of those commodities whether or not the 1



### information even exists to put onto a label to 2



### influence a certain behavior. 3



### And the working group may go into 4



### this with the mind

- set that they are going to 5



### force a solution, that they are being mandated 6



### to force some kind of solution for everyt hing. 7



### I just think that we, as a committee, need to 8



### create some kind of clarity, framework, or a 9



### definition around what our intention is or 10



### what we intend for them to do, than just 11



### saying, hey, go out there and figure out 12



### something for us. 13



### Just my point of view. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: I am mindful of the 15



### timetable, and I am thinking about how we 16



### split the difference between those that are on 17



### the fence and those that seem inclined to join 18



### and jump in. Is there an intermediary step 19



### here? Is there a

-- 20



### MS. AR MSTRONG: I mean, the only 21



### thing I can think of as something kind of in 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the middle is, you know, vote whether we think 1



### this is a valuable exercise to form a working 2



### group today, hold nominations, though, until 3



### the comment period has ended. 4



### Therefore, peo ple have a chance to 5



### read the comments as they may wish and decide 6



### if they want to apply for the committee and/or 7



### ASRAC members could decide if they want to 8



### also be on the committee

-- working group, and 9



### then go from there. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Do you think th e 11



### convening report gives a pretty

-- 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no 13



### convening report for this one? This one is 14



### just an RFI. I mean, I don't think you are 15



### going to see like, you know, a comment summary 16



### and the Department's responses and pros and 17



### cons or po tential options for the Department 18



### from DOE. 19



### That is what we are really looking 20



### for the committee to give us, not necessarily 21



### comment responses, but, I mean, options as to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### what we could do or what the right thing may 1



### be to do. And it may very well be nothing. 2



### You know, you shouldn't enter this space. 3



### But at the same time, I think we 4



### would like some due diligence consideration 5



### given to help inform us before we make our 6



### decision whether to jump full fledge into this 7



### space. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: John. 9



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: What would be 10



### the scope that we would recommend to the 11



### working group? 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think a 13



### good starting point, right, could be the RFI 14



### questions that we teed up. We wanted feedback 15



### on those specific questions, so that could be 16



### a good starting point for the committee at 17



### least, you know, what are your opinions on 18



### these questions for the working

-- or working 19



### group. I keep calling it a committee. Sorry. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. how many 21



### questions were there on

-- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRO NG: I'm sure it could 1



### be broader than that, but at least, as a first 2



### step, that's not a bad idea. 3



### MR. CASKEY: So one potential 4



### charter, you know, at least for this first 5



### phase would be to review all of the comments, 6



### try and categorize the comments mayb e just by 7



### your questions, or maybe there is some other 8



### category that naturally falls out, and then 9



### come up with some sort of summary document 10



### that helps to communicate that to all of the 11



### ASRAC members. 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: And potentially a 13



### recommendation, ri ght? Yeah. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So that

-- 15



### and then that would be a task for a working 16



### group that you would convene, or you would 17



### empower, create. Yeah. 18



### So what do you think? Do you want 19



### to move the question on whether to create this 20



### working group or not? Does anyone object to 21



### creating

-- moving the question? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### We are almost back to Robert's 1



### Rules here, and I'm going to move the 2



### question. Does anyone dissent, anyone not 3



### wish to create a working group to consider 4



### commercial labeling? Especially I would note 5



### that two or three individuals have noted they 6



### would like to participate in doing this. 7



### Anybody wish to dissent? 8



### MR. COUSINS: All right. Now, 9



### without answering that question, if the 10



### question is, do we dissent on creating the 11



### working group, speaking for myself, I don't 12



### dissent on creating a working group. What I'm 13



### suggesting is that this committee give 14



### consideration to the creation of that as a 15



### first step. I mean, I think that's a 16



### different question than whether or not we 17



### dissent at this m oment. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: What Ashley said a 19



### moment ago, which I kind of bought, was that 20



### if we create a working group any member of the 21



### committee that wishes to participate in the 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### working group could do so as a member of the 1



### working group. 2



### So, and then th e committee as a 3



### whole would not need to participate. That's 4



### what

-- if I followed your logic, that's what 5



### was being said. 6



### MR. COUSINS: All right. We had a 7



### discussion about whether or not this committee 8



### could derive some clarity to this exercise

-- 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 10



### MR. COUSINS:

-- by defining the 11



### scope
-- the framework and the scope. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 13



### MR. COUSINS: Not right now but 14



### maybe in a conference call, let's say. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Uh

- huh. 16



### MR. COUSINS: That was I think 17



### some o f the comments that were made, and what 18



### I'm trying to understand is, okay, does that 19



### comment

-- is that still a valid comment, or 20



### are we at a point now where we are saying that 21



### is not a valid comment, let's go and create 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### the working group? 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: I don't know 2



### whether it's valid. It seemed like the 3



### conversation moved toward, especially it being 4



### late in the day, towards whether the committee 5



### wanted to create this working group, noting 6



### that any member that wanted to participate in 7



### the working group could do so. 8



### And then it seems like a separate 9



### question about whether ASRAC wants to provide 10



### some scoping activity. 11



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: I think part of 12



### the concern that you may be hearing is that, 13



### if I understand the process correctly, once we 14



### empanel the working group, we're out unless 15



### we're on the working group. 16



### And then, the only guidance or 17



### input we can provide is to accept or reject 18



### the recommendation to go to DOE, because the 19



### document says you have to either forward it 20



### without changes, and so I think this is an 21



### issue that is cross

- cutting enough that there 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### are members who are

-- kind of want to 1



### understand it a little better to help scope 2



### what the exercise is before we let go of it. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. I 4



### understand. Thanks for that clari ty. 5



### John. 6



### MR. CASKEY: Yeah. And sort of 7



### building on that

-- and, again, I

-- this is 8



### sort of a selfish response, if you will, but 9



### what I think would be ideal is a two

- phased 10



### approach. The first phase approach is to do 11



### exactly what your staff would d o, would be to 12



### go through and what I had said earlier, review 13



### all of the comments, try and categorize them, 14



### try and summarize them wherever possible and 15



### come up with some summary. 16



### And then, at that point that sort 17



### of concludes Phase 1. Then, to bring th at 18



### back to us for us to be able to provide the 19



### guidance that you are thinking of and then 20



### help to modify the scope and give this working 21



### group better guidance on what we want them to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### accomplish, and then set them off to go do 1



### Phase 2, and then come back wi th the final 2



### recommendation. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? So that had 4



### -- that was a clear proposal right there. 5



### What do you think? Could DOE work its 6



### timetable to effect that? Yes? Yeah? Okay. 7



### So, then, we have

-- maybe we will 8



### put that to a decision, a v ote of the 9



### committee. Does anyone dissent from the 10



### following proposal as put out there by John, 11



### that Phase 1 would be for DOE to review a 12



### catalogue and summarize the comments and make 13



### those available and send them to ASRAC; and 14



### then, as Phase 2, ASRAC wou ld review

-- 15



### MR. CASKEY: I intended the 16



### working group be established and do what 17



### normally DOE would have done as to

-- 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Oh. 19



### MR. CASKEY:

-- evaluate the RFI 20



### for

-- 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: I apologize. I 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### missed that. 1



### MR. CYMBALSKY: So DOE can help in 2



### the comment summary. So instead of doing the 3



### responses, it would be up to this working 4



### group to create those responses, at which time 5



### Phase 2 would kick in, which is your

-- the 6



### guidance of this group. 7



### MR. CASKEY: Yes. So specifically 8



### I wo uld say the working group would review the 9



### responses to the RFI. They would try and 10



### categorize them and group them together and, 11



### you know, maybe organize them by how they 12



### entered the particular questions, come up with 13



### some sort of summary. 14



### And then, at that point, that 15



### would be the end of Phase 1, and then come 16



### back to ASRAC for evaluation of that summary 17



### and for guidance on doing Phase 2, which would 18



### be to come up with some more of a 19



### recommendation. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: So that didn't fit 21



### with John's conce rn about turning loose

-- 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, Phase 1 1



### sounds like the job of DOE. So I don't know 2



### if you want to take Federal Register time to 3



### empanel a group of people to do that. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: I missed it, but 5



### that's where I thought you were g oing. I 6



### thought you were saying DOE should do Phase 1. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to do a 8



### modified version of Phase 1, because I really 9



### like to summarize and respond to comments. 10



### I don't think DOE would have an 11



### issue assisting with summarizing all of t he 12



### comments and providing them to a working 13



### group. I think, really, what we are looking 14



### for a working group to do would be to review 15



### all of the responses to the RFI and almost 16



### come up with either pros and cons and/or 17



### recommendations to each of the questio ns posed 18



### in the RFI for ASRAC to consider as to whether 19



### we even proceed with commercial labeling 20



### generally. 21



### So I'm going to take it a step 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### further. I don't really see them

-- the 1



### summary as the value coming out of the working 2



### group. I see it more as, o kay, we asked each 3



### of these questions, and there may be other 4



### considerations we didn't consider. 5



### What is the consensus approach to 6



### those questions, basically? 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: And that would be a 8



### working group that would take the summary that 9



### was created based on the comments by DOE and 10



### they would do a pro and con and 11



### recommendations in response to the RFI 12



### questions at a minimum. 13



### MR. PETERSON: Just another 14



### process question, and this is

-- if that first 15



### phase happens, it comes back to ASRAC, ASRAC 16



### appro ves it, it doesn't necessarily have to go 17



### to DOE, right? We can

-- 18



### MS. ARMSTRONG: It can go back to 19



### the working group, too. 20



### MR. PETERSON:

-- go out with the 21



### second working group. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Steve. 2



### MR. COUSINS : A concern I've got 3



### here is any working group doing conclusive 4



### work, without ASRAC having the opportunity to 5



### frame this up in any way, shape, or form

-- 6



### and here is why I say that. Hey, there are a 7



### lot of commodities that are represented there. 8



### We onl y have 25 people on the 9



### working group. Are they going to represent 10



### all of those

-- I don't think so. I think we 11



### have

-- we have got a broader, overarching 12



### oversight with regard to

-- if I understand 13



### why this group has even been formed, I think 14



### this is a classic advisory task that we have 15



### that it seems that we want to try to say, 16



### well, not in this case. 17



### I would hate to take this to a 18



### working group and ask them to draw conclusions 19



### without us having the opportunity to put some 20



### framework around this. That' s just my point 21



### of view. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Well, I thought 1



### what I heard was that you would summarize the 2



### comments for us, and then we would digest that 3



### and then determine what the working group 4



### should do. I don't think

-- to me it is not a 5



### question of should we have a working group or 6



### not. It's just what is the charter of that 7



### working group going to be? 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: And the sequence. 9



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: And the 10



### sequence. And so maybe we take baby steps 11



### here, and the first step is, you know, you 12



### h ave to do the summary anyway. You know, do 13



### the summary and provide it to us, so we have 14



### the benefit of it, and then we have

-- then we 15



### understand where the four corners are to 16



### empanel a working group. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: So the sequence

-- 18



### so it would be as follows. The proposal would 19



### be for DOE to take the responses to the RFI, 20



### review, categorize, and summarize those 21



### comments. They would send that back to ASRAC, 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### and ASRAC would look at them, and, as John 1



### says, consider it and maybe define boundary 2



### conditio ns, the four corners, and the like. 3



### That would result in guidance 4



### being sent to the working group itself, and 5



### then the working group would get on with the 6



### business of doing a more complete review, 7



### pros, cons, and recommendations based on the 8



### RFI question s at a minimum and perhaps more. 9



### That's the proposal that is 10



### emerging. Are you comfortable with that, 11



### Steve? You're comfortable with that. 12



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think

-- so the 13



### last part about it, I mean, if we are going to 14



### do summaries, then ASRAC want s to be the one 15



### to review those summaries and look at the 16



### questions in the RFI and then define the scope 17



### for the working committee. 18



### I don't think the working 19



### committee at that point is coming up with 20



### recommendations for the five questions in the 21



### RFI. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### M R. BROOKMAN: There are only five 1



### questions? 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, no. There may 3



### be more. I'm just

-- whatever it is. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Oh. 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, at that 6



### point I think the working group is coming up 7



### with a commercial labeling strategy. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: That is, ASRAC is 9



### the working group that is going to come up 10



### with the labeling

-- 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: No. We would 12



### vote. We would vote to determine whether we 13



### wanted to form a working group. We would have 14



### the response

-- you know, we wou ld have the 15



### summaries for the RFI. We would take our 16



### positions and say based on the summaries, this 17



### is what we think. 18



### We need to vote as to whether 19



### commercial labeling RFI

-- I mean, this could 20



### go on forever. It's just a matter of, do we 21



### want to do i t ourselves, which is going to 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### push it out a couple months? Or do we want to 1



### just form a working group to deal with coming 2



### up with recommendations from the RFI? 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Tom? 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Or ASRAC. I mean, 5



### ASRAC is never out of the process, to your 6



### point. I mean, the working group is going to 7



### come back to ASRAC, so

-- 8



### MR. COUSINS: My concern is having 9



### any group
-- DOE, working group, whatever

-- 10



### come to ASRAC having already filtered out a 11



### lot of things, a lot of findings, a lot of

-- 12



### done the filtering and done the making 13



### conclusions, basically leaving us with the 14



### position of a yea or a nay without providing 15



### any kind of framework. That's my comment. 16



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: How about you 17



### should be on the working group, Steve? 18



### (Laughter.) 19



### I mean, that sounds like what

-- 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: This is going to 21



### happen. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: I can't be on 1



### every working group, so I think we need to be 2



### able to delegate to working groups and

-- 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Two or three 4



### individuals have said they want to be on the 5



### working group. So we know that. 6



### Tom Eckman. 7



### MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Maybe it's my 8



### schedule, but I don't see a working group 9



### reading through comments and summarizing them. 10



### That seems to me to be a staff function. 11



### And then, bringing tho se comments 12



### back to us so we could determine what the 13



### scope of work is after that, whether there is 14



### a scope of work after that, is something we 15



### can make a recommendation to DOE on and judge 16



### it in that sequence. 17



### So we see the comments and see 18



### where the

-- you know, if there is a lot of 19



### contention or if there is a lot of consensus 20



### about this on some of those questions that you 21



### queued up, then we have a way to scope

-- go 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### work on this, we need a workgroup to bring 1



### that to closure, there seems to be consensus 2



### on that. 3



### But until I see the comments and 4



### the responses, a summary of those, I don't 5



### have any way to scope what the next phase 6



### looks like. Whether I'd vote up or down on 7



### labeling, I don't know what the questions are 8



### or what the comments are. 9



### So I

- - you know, staff could 10



### bring back a summary, and then I've got 11



### something to work with. But right now I don't 12



### have anything to work with in terms of even a 13



### context. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: So the proposal on 15



### the table

-- and I'm glad we are not doing 16



### this via Ro bert's Rules

-- would be for DOE to 17



### take the responses from the RFI, categorize 18



### them, summarize them, and then send them back 19



### to ASRAC. ASRAC would, in a very short amount 20



### -- rather short amount of time, figure out 21



### what to do with them, provide guidance 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### p erhaps. 1



### ASRAC would be the body that would 2



### provide more detailed comments and guidance or 3



### maybe at that point they would create a 4



### working group to decide what to do with and to 5



### create the kind of product that Ashley 6



### described

-- pros, cons, and recs on the RFI 7



### questions. That's the proposal on the table. 8



### DR. HUNGERFORD: I guess I want to 9



### ask a

-- there's an assumption in that that a 10



### normal part of the process for DOE is to 11



### create a formal summary of comments. And the 12



### question I have is, would this add significant 13



### workload to you guys to have this part of the 14



### process where that summary were provided to 15



### this group? 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to do 17



### it anyway, so we can provide it. 18



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Whether you want 19



### to delegate the

-- looking at the summary to a 20



### subcommittee or to you, well, that

-- 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the way I 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### see it. Do we want to

-- I mean, this is 1



### going to require us to meet webinar or by 2



### phone multiple times over the next couple of 3



### months to make the decision and to revie w the 4



### -- and discuss these comments and

-- 5



### MR. ECKMAN: I think my

-- I 6



### envisioned that we would see an executive 7



### summary of the comments by topic area, 8



### whatever the questions were. That we are not 9



### reading and reinterpreting what you

-- that 10



### staff look at. It is just, this is what was 11



### said, so many lined up this way, so many lined 12



### up this way, and these look to be multiple 13



### opinions about this issue. There is consensus 14



### around that. 15



### It's an analytical judgment about 16



### who weighs in on what side, but it's not a 17



### conclusion and I don't think we're

-- I wasn't 18



### envisioning reading a 70

- page summary of 19



### comments. It was pretty high level, these are 20



### the big issues, these are the big comments, 21



### there is consensus here, there is not 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### consensus there. Something like that that has 1



### got some context to it, because the

-- 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So typically the 3



### way our process works is we will summarize 4



### each of the individual comments by commenters. 5



### Now, whether or not we take it up further and 6



### provide an executive summary i s on the table. 7



### The question becomes, do we delegate to a 8



### working group rather than ourselves, to come 9



### up
-- you know, weigh those issues? It's just 10



### a matter of, how much do you want to take on 11



### yourself? 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 13



### MR. COUSINS: All right. This 14



### committee advises and provides guidance. I 15



### think that's what we said. So you have your 16



### -- you summarize your findings, you 17



### consolidate and summarize your findings. You 18



### say, "Committee, advise and guide." And we 19



### may say, "Okay. Working group is next to do 20



### A, B, C, and D." 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. David? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### DR. HUNGERFORD: Yeah. It seems 1



### like the threshold question in

-- if we were 2



### provided the comments when they are available, 3



### the summarized comments, that we could

-- 4



### there are only a couple of t hings that ASRAC 5



### would need to answer, and that is the 6



### threshold question of whether we

-- whether a 7



### working group should be formed. 8



### And the second would be what that 9



### -- some scope definition for the task of that 10



### working group, and that that would be al l that 11



### would be required. It wouldn't be a series of 12



### meetings. It wouldn't be endless discussion. 13



### It would merely

-- it would be something that 14



### could be taken care of in one webinar. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Andrew? 16



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: I concur to 17



### proce ed as you describe. And, I mean, just

-- 18



### I think just as a reminder, you know, this is 19



### going to go forward whether we commission a 20



### working group or not. So the question is, the 21



### Department basically inviting a working group 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### to help them shape how they are going to do 1



### this. 2



### So we decided not to commission a 3



### working group. That means that we are saying 4



### you all go figure it out. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 6



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: So I guess 7



### that's where I'm coming from on this and I

-- 8



### this is not a

-- 9



### MR. BROOK MAN: So it seems as 10



### though we have the kernel of an agreement 11



### emerging here. And it

-- and as I understand 12



### it, it is that DOE will receive its comments 13



### on the RFI by March 21. In some sort span of 14



### time, you will summarize/categorize those 15



### comments, and you will send those to ASRAC. 16



### ASRAC will consider what is there, 17



### and you will decide whether a working group 18



### needs to be formed, and what the scope and 19



### definitions surrounding that working group 20



### might be if you were to form it. 21



### And also, ASRAC might de cide 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### itself to create some additional contour or 1



### boundaries, that sort of stuff, whether it 2



### creates a working group or not. I think those 3



### are the options. 4



### So I am going to

-- John, Ashley, 5



### comments in by March 31, a summary produced 6



### by

-- 7



### MS. ARMSTRON G: Sometime in April. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Mid

- April. Tax 9



### day, April 15 or so. So we are going to be in 10



### abeyance for a good long while. 11



### Okay. So I'm going to move the 12



### question on that last proposal. Should I 13



### repeat it? No. Okay. Does anyone dissent 14



### f rom proceeding as I just described

-- DOE do 15



### a bunch of work, push it to ASRAC, ASRAC 16



### considers what it's got via probably a webinar 17



### in the short timeframe turnaround, consider 18



### whether a working group needs to be formed, 19



### and, if that is the case, provide scope and 20



### definition or perhaps ASRAC will take the 21



### initiative to provide additional contour 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### boundaries, and the like. 1



### That's the proposal. Does anyone 2



### dissent? So once again we have a unanimous 3



### agreement. Thanks to all of you for that. 4



### So we have a greed to create a 5



### working group for HVAC. We have established a 6



### process for the commercial labeling. And we 7



### have tabled, for the moment, fans and pumps 8



### and test procedures on residential water 9



### heaters. And that's what we have decided to 10



### do at this first stage of endeavor. 11



### Does anybody

-- we are over time 12



### at this point. Anybody want to raise 13



### additional issues before we move to additional 14



### next steps? 15



### Yes, John. 16



### MR. CASKEY: I don't know what 17



### your definition of "additional issues" is, but 18



### I think it would be good to be able to scope 19



### out some of these other ideas that we've got 20



### on the board. And I don't know whether that 21



### is for you to do or DOE or whether you want 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### help from volunteers here to do some of that, 1



### but I think that's an action item that nee ds 2



### to be done I would say within the next month 3



### or so. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking that 5



### we would cover that in next steps. And I was 6



### going to lean heavily on Ashley and John to 7



### help describe, among these items that have 8



### been listed here, and perhaps o thers, how we 9



### can inform the committee about what is 10



### involved with each one of those items. 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the 12



### Department could take the first step, unless 13



### there is any like process

- related ones that 14



### anyone wanted to vote on today. But I thi nk 15



### the Department could take the first step at 16



### fleshing some of these out, and then the 17



### committee could

-- we could circulate it, and 18



### the committee could add, edit, ask questions 19



### from there. I could circulate it, if that's 20



### okay. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: John. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### C O

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Agree. And 1



### then, what about the idea that was raised in 2



### the public comment period about the ability 3



### for the general public to suggest ideas for 4



### ASRAC? 5



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you can 6



### just send an email to the ASRAC email address 7



### at any time. I know Gary mentioned he had a 8



### dozen or so ideas. I'm sure plenty of others 9



### do. I think you should just send the email to 10



### ASRAC and that can get disseminated to the 11



### committee, or, you know, handled

-- or put on 12



### the next agenda for discussion kind of thing. 13



### Would that work for everyone? 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: You're the 15



### Designated Federal Official. Is Jeremiah or 16



### someone the Secretariat here? Does it all go 17



### in one big pot or

-- 18



### MR. CYMBALSKY: I am the 19



### figurehead and he is the one who actually does 20



### the work. Is that what you just said? 21



### (Laughter.) 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### Sounds right. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 2



### MR. CYMBALSKY: No. But, yeah, so 3



### there's a docket and there's also the email 4



### box. So

-- 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Great. 6



### MR. CYMBALSKY:

-- either way. 7



### MR. BROOKMA N: Okay. So that is a 8



### next step, as just described. 9



### Other next steps? Well, one would 10



### be the mechanics of creating the working 11



### group, the HVAC working group, and we laid out 12



### how that would get done. 13



### There will be a complete 14



### transcript of this me eting made available. 15



### James has been over here diligently taking 16



### care of things. 17



### Jeremiah, are you going to do sort 18



### of a more

-- a summary, executive summary? 19



### More than an executive summary; a summary of 20



### this meeting contents. So that will be 21



### availab le in what kind of a timeframe? 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. FREEMAN: Probably a week or 1



### so. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: A week or so. 3



### Okay. 4



### And then, any other next steps 5



### that

-- 6



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Next meeting? 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Next meeting. Next 8



### meeting. I've got a calendar here in front of 9



### me. What kind of a timeframe are you 10



### thinking? 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So the next 12



### meeting could be by phone. And I don't know, 13



### somewhere between

-- it would seem somewhere 14



### between 30 days and 45 days when we have those 15



### nominations in for the commerc ial

-- or we 16



### have the applications in for the commercial 17



### cert, so we can go ahead and act on that 18



### pretty quickly. 19



### And then, maybe by then the 20



### Department will have some fleshing out of some 21



### of this stuff. 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Forty

- five days 1



### from the end of F ebruary would be the middle 2



### of April. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So I would say 4



### shoot for the beginning of April in the hopes 5



### that we can actually get that stuff done in 30 6



### days. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Because that's 9



### what we are going to shoot for

. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Uh

- huh. 11



### MS. ARMSTRONG: If possible. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: The other thing was 13



### that by

-- you were saying by around about 14



### April 15 that would be when the

-- you would 15



### have the comments for the RFI compiled. 16



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Yeah. 17



### W e'll have

-- people won't be able to digest 18



### them. So that will have to be at the followup 19



### meeting. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. Okay. 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: But at least for 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### this one I don't think we want to hold up the 1



### commercial cert working group, and we will 2



### need the committee's input for the actual 3



### nominations. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Scheduling is 5



### always a difficult thing. Sometimes it is 6



### easier for people to do things perhaps at the 7



### beginning of the week or the end of the week 8



### rather than the middle of the week. 9



### John? 10



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: What I 11



### recommend is we have the general timeframe as 12



### we did for this meeting. Jeremiah sent out a 13



### poll for us to

-- 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK:

-- with some 16



### options that we could

-- 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 18



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK:

-- react to and 19



### -- 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: So we're talking 21



### around about April 1, and perhaps that first 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### week or no later than two. Okay? Jeremiah, 1



### yes? April 1st? Yeah. 2



### CO

- CHAIR deLASKI: And I would add 3



### the potential agenda item for that meeting 4



### that we would at that point perhaps be able to 5



### take up some additional topics that may be 6



### appropriate, and we may be able to

-- 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I will try to 9



### circulate some of the more fleshed

- out ideas 10



### from this in a docum ent, so we can start 11



### thinking about them. 12



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Right. And 13



### then the two technologies. 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. That's

-- 15



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Pumps

-- or 16



### fans and pumps. 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 18



### CO

- CHAIR MANDYCK: Hear people out 19



### on that. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: And then, as a 21



### practice, we also have already said that ideas 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### that come in from outside the committee, those 1



### will be gathered and sent to committee members 2



### to consider as well. 3



### So for my part, I think we're done 4



### here, and I would j ust turn it back to John 5



### and Ashley. 6



### Thank you all. Very, very 7



### productive meeting. Congratulations on being 8



### composed as an Advisory Committee. It is no 9



### small matter for the Department of Energy to 10



### create an Advisory Committee, and there is 11



### really, w e hope, a tremendous amount of 12



### potential here. So congratulations to you 13



### all. 14



### Back to John. 15



### MR. CYMBALSKY: I would echo that. 16



### And I think all of you just took on a lot of 17



### work, which I'm very impressed. I tried to 18



### get you to delegate, but you would n't do it. 19



### (Laughter.) 20



### And now you will learn the lesson. 21



### No, but honestly, I think everything we said 22NEAL R. GROSS

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### today I think just supports what we said in 1



### the beginning of the meeting, that I think we 2



### can get a lot accomplished with this group. 3



### And so I appr eciate that we formed the 4



### committee

-- the working group, and let's go 5



### from there and see how it goes. 6



### So thanks. Thanks again. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. Safe 8



### travels. 9



### (Whereupon, the above

- entitled 10



### matter went off the record at 4:19 p.m.) 11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 319

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carry 149:15

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circumstances

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27:19 Coughlin 1:19 38:9

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46:20

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84:6 95:14 187:5 188:11 190:3,4,11 190:15 198:3 critical 85:7 188:20 189:11 271:1

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cross 165:4 176:15 182:22 crosscutting 65:21

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8:9 11:10 date 68:7 73:15 181:9 182:8 195:8 211:6 239:2 247:3 247:7 260:19,21 273:6 dates 181:17 Dave 207:4 269:8 David 1:21 2:9 20:3 20:5 110:3 125:5 125:6 270:6 305:22 day 51:11 52:19,20

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305:8 317:19 delegating 276:10 deliberate 58:10 deliberations 56:13

61:22 deliver 231:8 deliverable 13:8 delivering 9:16 demand 157:10 185:12,15 demanding 36:13

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26:2 28:10,14,20 35:11 43:8 45:14 49:9 50:3,7 52:7 57:2 58:4 64:12 67:7,11,22 71:4 74:20 75:5,10,20 78:7 88:7 92:11 95:20 96:15 97:21 99:19 101:3,5 121:1,11 122:10 131:4 134:18 138:22 142:19 164:6 168:1 172:19,20 175:22 177:15 201:10,10 204:1,4,17 216:12 216:12 217:2,3 246:4 270:19 277:22 278:10,10 281:16 288:17 differential 159:18 differently 12:8,10 125:9 185:5 277:22 difficult 17:5 26:20

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90:7,16 91:4 287:10 290:20 316:11 documentation 148:3 DOE 16:5,10 20:10

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30:10 35:15 61:18 62:12 63:17 65:5 76:14 93:12 111:5 119:16 146:6 166:22 167:1,21 191:13 197:17 228:16,21 276:2 288:7 293:3,18 296:4 298:7 302:16 dollar 73:20 dollars 27:10,11

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91:21 104:17,20 135:5 138:10 151:13 159:11 160:10 177:17 178:19,22 179:17 259:10 290:20 294:17 312:7 elaborate 31:1 155:11 227:11 elected 98:7 electric 1:22 2:10

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elegantly 138:6 elements 228:3 elevator 127:5 eleven 44:9 elicits 31:19 ELIZABETH 2:18

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### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 357

yields 192:13 York 38:12

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8 8E-089 1:9

9 9:59 5:2 90 69:4 99 105:2NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under

my direction; further, that said transcript is a

true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 358

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee

US DOE

02-26-13

Washington, DC