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3 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

4 PUBLIC HEARING ON PROPOSED ACTION TO IMPLEMENT

5 BEST AVAILABLE RETROFIT TECHNOLOGY AT

6 CHOLLA, CORONADO AND APACHE GENERATING STATIONS

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12 HOLBROOK, ARIZONA

13 AUGUST 14, 2012

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17 ATKINSON-BAKER, INC.

18 Court Reporters

19 (800) 288-3376

20 www.depo.com

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22 REPORTER:

23 JOSIE ROPER

24 AZ CSR # 50511

25 FILE NO.: A607E8E 
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1 APPEARANCES:

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3 HEARING OFFICER: Gerardo Rios

4 SPANISH INTERPRETER: Alicia Nieto-Jacobs

5 NAVAJO INTERPRETER: Joanna Austin-Manygoats

6 TIME KEEPER: Francisco Dóñez

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

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3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Welcome and good

4 evening. The public hearing is now in session. My

5 name is Gerardo Rios. I'm a public hearing officer for 18:14:10

6 of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Region 9

7 in San Francisco, California, and the presiding officer

8 for today's hearing.

9 With me today are several individuals from

10 the EPA Region 9 Air Division: Colleen McKaughan, 18:14:26

11 Associate Director of the Region 9 Air Division,

12 Francisco Dóñez from the Arizona Region 9 Planning

13 Office, who will also be acting as our time keeper,

14 Roberto Gutierrez from the Permits office,

15 and Margot Perez-Sullivan from EPA's Office of Public 18:14:46

16 Affairs. We also have Josie Roper serving as our court

17 reporter for this hearing, Joanna Austin-Manygoats as

18 our Diné interpreter, and Alicia Nieto-Jacobs for our

19 Spanish interpreter for anyone who needs

20 Spanish/English translation. Ms. Jacobs has headphones 18:15:10

21 so that you can hear the translation in English and

22 Spanish simultaneously. For anyone that needs

23 assistance with Diné, Ms. Manygoats will provide

24 assistance as needed.

25 The purpose of today's hearing is to 18:15:28
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1 accept the public's comments as part of the official

2 record on the Environmental Protection Agency's

3 proposed action to partially approve and partially

4 disapprove the Arizona Regional Haze SIP, and to

5 implement Best Available Retrofit Technology at three 18:15:46

6 coal-fired power plants in Arizona: The Coronado

7 Generating Station, the Cholla Power Plant, and the

8 Apache Generating Station. As part of this action, EPA

9 is proposing to require installation of new controls

10 for nitrogen oxide emissions at all three facilities. 18:16:04

11 On July 12, 2012, EPA signed a proposed

12 partial approval and partial disapproval of the Arizona

13 Regional Haze SIP which can be summarized in the

14 following manner: A proposal to approve the State's

15 BART emission limits for sulfur dioxide and particulate 18:16:22

16 matter at the three facilities, and a proposal to

17 disapprove the BART emission limits for nitrogen oxides

18 at most of the units at the three facilities. And as a

19 remedy to the disapproval, a proposed Federal

20 Implementation Plan, or FIP, containing new emission 18:16:42

21 limits for nitrogen oxides as well as the associated

22 compliance requirements.

23 You can find details about EPA's proposed

24 actions in handouts at the back of the room and on

25 EPA's website. 18:16:54
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1 My role as the presiding public hearing

2 officer is to insure that the Environmental Protection

3 Agency receives your oral public comments in an orderly

4 fashion. I will not be involved in assessing or

5 responding to your comments. Likewise, I will not be 18:17:08

6 involved in EPA's final decision-making process for the

7 three coal-fired power plants. Instead, I am solely

8 facilitating this proceeding to make sure all community

9 members have an equal opportunity to submit oral

10 comment on this issue as part of the official 18:17:25

11 administrative record.

12 Before we begin accepting your comments, I

13 would like to describe the ground rules for today's

14 hearing.

15 First, this hearing is a formal legal 18:17:35

16 proceeding, and the testimony offered will become part

17 of the administrative record on which EPA will base its

18 decision. Public notice of this hearing was published

19 in the Federal Register on July 9, 2012, for Phoenix

20 and on July 31, 2012, for hearings in Holbrook and 18:17:53

21 Benson. A hearing in Benson will be held on August 15,

22 2012, or tomorrow.

23 This hearing is being recorded by a court

24 reporter, who will be preparing a verbatim record of

25 the hearing. If you present oral comments at today's 18:18:08
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1 hearing, please speak clearly and slowly so that the

2 court reporter can understand you and record your

3 comments accurately. I also ask that the audience

4 refrain from interrupting other speakers or asking

5 questions during any presentations. This courtesy will 18:18:27

6 also help the court reporter to record comments

7 accurately.

8 Shouting, noise making or any disruptive

9 conduct which prevents speakers or hearing officials

10 from being heard or any other failures to follow the 18:18:41

11 rules of the hearing are not permitted. Also, please

12 silence your phones. If you need to take a call,

13 please either go outside or to the back of the room.

14 This will allow the court reporter to record all

15 comments accurately. Please note that you'll have the 18:18:56

16 opportunity to make comments shortly once we begin the

17 public comment portion of this hearing.

18 Banners and posters will allowed to be

19 placed in the rear of the room. However, banners and

20 posters that are attached to a stick will not be 18:19:11

21 allowed in the hearing room. If you wish to carry a

22 banner or poster with you to your seat, you will be

23 asked to sit in the back of the hearing room so you do

24 not obstruct the visibility of the individual seated

25 behind you. Any sign or banner may be excluded from 18:19:28
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1 the hearing room if it is determined to be disruptive

2 to the conduct of the hearing.

3 There is a registration table at the

4 entrance of the room. If you would like to make oral

5 comments at today's hearing, please fill out the 18:19:42

6 speaker request form which is located at the

7 registration table. We will receive oral public

8 comments in the order in which the speaker request

9 forms are received. Please write your name legibly, as

10 the court reporter will be relying on the card for the 18:19:55

11 correct spelling of your name. Before giving us your

12 comment, please state your name for the record.

13 If you do not wish to speak today, you can

14 also submit written comments for the official record.

15 Written comments submitted through the U.S. Postal 18:20:11

16 Service must be postmarked on or before September 18,

17 2012.

18 You may also submit written comments on

19 the comment card. There is a comment box at the

20 registration table where you can leave your written 18:20:26

21 comments.

22 If you submit written comments, it is not

23 necessary for you to give the same oral comments as

24 well, but you may do so if you wish by submitting a

25 speaker request form. 18:20:37
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1 Written comments and oral comments will

2 receive equal consideration by EPA in making the final

3 decision.

4 The oral comments received at this hearing

5 and all written comments received today will be 18:20:51

6 reviewed and considered by EPA in preparing its final

7 rule-making decision.

8 It's important for you to know that we are

9 here only to take comments on EPA's proposed best

10 available retrofit technology determination for 18:21:04

11 nitrogen oxides for the Coronado, Cholla, and Apache

12 power plants. EPA will only consider comments related

13 to EPA's proposed actions at these facilities in making

14 its final decision. So I ask that you refrain from

15 making comments that are not related to this specific 18:21:19

16 action.

17 EPA decisions on Clean Air Act rules are

18 typically made with the participation of a number of

19 people within the organization. EPA staff cannot

20 commit to any specific decision related to the proposed 18:21:34

21 SIP and FIP today.

22 The purpose of this hearing is for EPA to

23 listen to your comments. Therefore, EPA will not be

24 providing responses during this hearing. Rather, EPA

25 will prepare a written summary of the comments it 18:21:53
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1 receives, and the responses to comments will be

2 available at the time EPA issues its final BART

3 decisions for the three power plants. EPA will not

4 make the final decision on NOx BART for the three power

5 plants until all comments submitted during the public 18:22:10

6 comment period have been considered.

7 A copy of the transcript for today's

8 hearing will be available for inspection at EPA's

9 office in San Francisco as well as on EPA Region 9's

10 website. If you wish to purchase an official copy of 18:22:25

11 the transcript, please make arrangements with the court

12 reporter directly following the hearing.

13 In a few minutes, I will begin calling on

14 speakers who have filled out and submitted a speaker

15 request form. Speakers will be called in groups of 18:22:38

16 five in the order in which the forms were received.

17 When you hear your name, please come forward and wait

18 until it is in your turn to speak. We have designated

19 five seats in the front so you can sit in order.

20 When I announce that it is your turn to 18:22:54

21 speak, please come up to the microphone, state your

22 name, and if you are appearing on behalf of someone or

23 an organization, please tell us who you are

24 representing. Please also spell your name so that the

25 court reporter can record your name correctly. 18:23:08
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1 If you are not in the room when I announce

2 your time to speak, I will recall you after all other

3 speakers have made their oral comments.

4 If you would like to hear today's

5 proceeding in Spanish or if you would like to make 18:23:22

6 comments in Spanish, we have the services of a

7 Spanish/English interpreter. If you will be making

8 your oral comments in Spanish, the interpreter will be

9 asked to stand next to you at the microphone. Please

10 say one sentence and wait for her to translate your 18:23:40

11 statement into English for everyone to hear before your

12 next statement. Similarly, statements may be

13 translated into Diné. If you would like to make

14 comments in Diné, we have the services of a Diné

15 interpreter. If you are making your comments in Diné, 18:23:55

16 the interpreter will be asked to stand next to you at

17 the microphone. Please say one sentence and wait for

18 her to translate your statement into English for

19 everyone to hear before your next statement.

20 We want to make sure that everyone has an 18:24:07

21 opportunity to speak here tonight. To that end, I ask

22 everyone who speaks to please make your oral comments

23 brief. To assist in this effort, I'm asking the

24 speakers to limit their comments to three minutes. If

25 you have lengthier comments, you may submit them in 18:24:24
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1 writing. Each speaker will be given a one-minute

2 warning and notified when their time is up. After all

3 speakers have had a chance to comment and time permits,

4 speakers can submit additional speaker request cards to

5 provide additional testimony if the time limit was not 18:24:41

6 long enough for them to do so when they first spoke.

7 Finally, as you look around the room, to

8 my right you can see an emergency exit. There's a

9 number of exits here. And there's restrooms near the

10 entrance. You also have a little bit of water in 18:25:00

11 front, in case anybody gets thirsty.

12 Now let us begin the comment period. The

13 first speakers are: Chester Crandell. Penny Pew,

14 District Director for Congressman Gosar, Mike Hummel,

15 Geoff Oldfather, and Micheal Dunn. 18:26:07

16 Mr. Crandell, you may come up to the

17 microphone to speak.

18 MR. CRANDELL: Thank you very much. My

19 name is Chester Crandall. I'm in the House of

20 Representatives from the State of Arizona. I also sit 18:26:20

21 on the Environment Committee.

22 A couple of things that I would like to

23 bring to your attention. Having attended a meeting

24 last summer at the Agriculture Summit in Washington,

25 DC, the comments were made and promises were made that 18:26:42
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1 EPA would not change the regulations or do anything

2 unless it was based on true scientific knowledge, not

3 on modeling scientific information, and as related to

4 the economic impact that it would have on the

5 communities in which those regulations would be placed. 18:27:05

6 Number one, I think the regulations have

7 been set, the timeline has been set, the research has

8 been done, and ADEQ, who's in charge of the Arizona

9 State's Regulatory Affairs was in the process of

10 implementing these regulations that had been set and 18:27:26

11 had been agreed upon to be able to implemented by the

12 year 2064 according to my knowledge.

13 All of a sudden, we have a change in

14 plans. There's been speculation -- and I'm not privy

15 to say for sure -- but there's been speculations that 18:27:46

16 deals were made with special interest groups to be able

17 to implement this at a faster pace than what it needs

18 to. And because of these deals, if this was followed

19 through, it is going to impact the State tremendously.

20 We are going to lose jobs. We're going to lose homes. 18:28:05

21 We're going to lose the economic benefit to the State,

22 which at this point in time with the economic downturn

23 would be devastating to this area.

24 I would implore, and I would hope that the

25 message would get back that we stay this until there is 18:28:24
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1 complete scientific knowledge or scientific based

2 evidence that it will make a difference, and that it

3 will be economically feasible, so that we don't lose

4 the economic benefit that we have with the power plants

5 in the State of Arizona. Thank you. 18:28:44

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Penny Pew.

7 MS. PEW: My name is Penny Pew. I'm here

8 on behalf of Congressman Paul Gosar. The congressman

9 continues to fight the disturbing regulations that

10 threaten to shut down Coronado, Cholla, and Apache 18:29:09

11 Power Plants, an action that would eliminate hundreds

12 of people's income; that would increase energy costs

13 for all of Arizona. We need common sense regulations.

14 The EPA should be working with the State to develop a

15 Regional Haze Plan. The Clean Air Act, in fact, 18:29:21

16 requires it. Regional haze is not a one size fits all.

17 The unique nature of Arizona and our role of plants

18 necessitates the federal government work with Arizona

19 to develop a plan. This would be a plan that would be

20 best for the economy and the environment, not placate 18:29:37

21 the environmental groups.

22 Congressman Gosar asked for an additional

23 hearing in St. Johns, the home of Coronado Plant and

24 was rejected by the EPA because they couldn't afford

25 it. 18:29:52
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1 We then offered additional funds to help

2 with that, and again we were rejected. So I encourage

3 everyone to continue to submit written comments,

4 because closing down those plants is not an option.

5 Thank you. 18:30:05

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Michael Hummel.

7 MR. HUMMEL: Thank you. My name is Mike

8 Hummel. I'm the Associate General Manager and Chief

9 Power System Executive at the Salt River Project

10 Agricultural Improvement and Power District, SRP. SRP 18:30:26

11 provides retail electric service to over 950,000

12 customers and operates Coronado Generating Station.

13 Coronado and the other two power plants

14 provide a vital economic engine for the rural

15 communities in which they're located. They provide 18:30:37

16 local tax revenue that supports vital community

17 services.

18 EPA's actions have reached the point where

19 they affect the economic viability of coal plants. It

20 is nonsensical under these conditions to move forward 18:30:47

21 with costly haze regulations that will not improve

22 visibility.

23 Indeed, SRP is in the final stages of

24 installing extensive new pollution control equipment at

25 Coronado Generating Station at a cost of over 500 18:31:01
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1 million dollars. EPA's proposed FIP is particularly

2 troubling, as it calls for additional controls even

3 before the current equipment installation process is

4 complete.

5 SRP believes the proposed FIP is flawed 18:31:15

6 based on inadequate cost analysis and defective

7 modeling. SRP respectfully requests that EPA withdraw

8 its proposal and work collaboratively with the State's

9 entire Regional Haze Implementation Plan.

10 EPA should consider and act on the State's 18:31:30

11 implementation plans and all of the matters together,

12 rather than singling out three power plants for

13 implementation of overly stringent NOx limits,

14 especially considering that the NOx emissions from the

15 power plants are responsible for less than five percent 18:31:46

16 of the haze in the region.

17 SRP has retained the engineering

18 consulting firm Sargent & Lundy to help review EPA's

19 cost estimates. EPA is projecting that a second SCR on

20 Unit 1 will cost only 57 million dollars. The SCR on 18:31:58

21 Unit 2 which is nearing completion is expected to cost

22 about 90 million dollars.

23 Clearly EPA's estimation techniques do not

24 account for site-specific conditions, which should be

25 considered in a source-specific BART analysis. Sargent 18:32:13
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1 & Lundy's site-specific estimates for Coronado show the

2 second SCR will cost about 110 million dollars.

3 There is no basis for EPA to dismiss these

4 site-specific costs developed by a professional

5 engineering firm in favor of a cost estimate based on 18:32:28

6 generic assumptions.

7 EPA's modeling shows no perceptible

8 visibility benefits.

9 SRP notes that EPA's modeling approach

10 found that none of the proposed control scenarios would 18:32:38

11 improve visibility by one deciview at any of the Class

12 I areas near Coronado. EPA tries to obscure this key

13 conclusion by applying a cumulative deciview metric.

14 SRP strongly objects to the use of this metric.

15 To conclude, EPA's proposed action is 18:32:57

16 misguided and unsupported. It is clearly not cost

17 effective to mandate additional controls at Coronado

18 Generating Station that would produce no visibility

19 benefit. EPA should withdraw the FIP and support the

20 State's Comprehensive Regional Haze Plan. 18:33:12

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Geoff Oldfather.

22 MR. OLDFATHER: Thank you very much for

23 this opportunity. I am Geoff, spelled, G-e-o-f-f,

24 Oldfather. I'm a Communications, Marketing, and Public

25 Relations Manager for Arizona Electric Power 18:33:36
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1 Cooperative, which owns the Apache Generating Station.

2 Part of my job responsibility is to know our members,

3 the people we serve, and because of that, I know how

4 they're affected by normal economic challenges in the

5 county. 18:33:45

6 Our customer base is relatively

7 economically disadvantaged. In requiring the

8 installation of controls at a cost estimated by AEPCO

9 of up to 219 million could impose a disproportionate

10 burden on our members. Now these factors make 18:34:01

11 affordable rates even more critical for AEPCO and our

12 members. Nationally, the service territory average

13 household income for electric cooperatives falls almost

14 11 percent below the U.S. average household income.

15 For Arizona Cooperative customers, these conditions are 18:34:15

16 more acute. Cooperative customers average --

17 (Court reporter interrupted to ask the

18 speaker to slow down.)

19 MR. OLDFATHER: Cooperative customers

20 average 16.4 percent lower household income than the 18:34:35

21 rest of the state, and 18.3 percent lower than the U.S.

22 average. The per capita income of AEPCO consumers is

23 29 thousand a year, a staggering 39 percent lower than

24 the national average.

25 Coops, as not-for-profit entities, must 18:34:53
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1 pass these costs on to their members. I would like to

2 share just one example of how profoundly a dramatic

3 increase in cost of electricity would affect our

4 members.

5 Debra Hess is a resident of Benson. She 18:35:03

6 owns a small hair salon in a mobile home park with rent

7 subsidies for her clients. They receive mental health

8 services from Southeast Arizona Behavior Health

9 Services. Her business has declined by a third since

10 2009 since people have lost their jobs. In order for 18:35:17

11 her doors to stay open, all of her equipment has to

12 stay plugged in. And her electric bill is the largest

13 business cost she has. If it even went up even 10

14 percent, she said it might force her to close her

15 doors. In the mobile home park, eight of the ten 18:35:32

16 tenants are physically or mentally disabled. Clients

17 not only of SABHS, but also of other aid agencies that

18 subsidize their living expenses. She pays the electric

19 bill for the park. She says if she has to pass on the

20 increased costs, she doubts those clients would be able 18:35:47

21 to pay them. She would probably have to close the

22 park, and they would have nowhere to go.

23 Her story is just a microcosm of what our

24 rural districts and our residents deal with. They

25 reflect what a majority of our resident -- or our rural 18:35:59
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1 residents, rather, deal with every day. The question

2 of how to get by and just put food on the table and the

3 cost of everything, including electricity, is going up.

4 They are literally just surviving.

5 In conclusion, electric utility coops have 18:36:14

6 a responsibility to the consumers who bear the cost of

7 meeting these various regulatory obligations.

8 The EPA's proposal to require selective

9 catalytic reduction and the costs associated with the

10 installation and implementation of these controls will 18:36:28

11 place a significant and disproportionate cost burden on

12 AEPCO and its members and could potentially undermine

13 the viability of AEPCO to cost effectively serve our

14 people. Thank you very much.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Micheal Dunn. 18:36:47

16 MR. DUNN: Good evening. My name is

17 Micheal Dunn, M-i-c-h-e-a-l, D-u-n-n. I'm president

18 and chief executive officer of PacifiCorp Energy, the

19 division of PacifiCorp that operates our electric

20 generating facilities, which serves more than 1.7 18:37:03

21 million residential and business customers.

22 Cholla Unit 4 is operated by Arizona Public

23 Service. PacifiCorp owns and is responsible for the

24 environmental compliance costs for Cholla Unit 4.

25 PacifiCorp also owns portions of an additional 18 BART 18:37:19
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1 eligible units in the West.

2 Regional haze is primarily a state issue.

3 The Clean Air Act and EPA's own rules require regional

4 haze requirements to be determined and implemented at

5 the state level. The Arizona Department of 18:37:32

6 Environmental Quality exercised the very discretion

7 contemplated by the Clean Air Act in applying the

8 relevant factors to its BART determinations.

9 However, rather than accepting the State's

10 thoughtful determinations, EPA has proposed to reject 18:37:43

11 certain portions of the Arizona State Implementation

12 Plan and ignore its own rules in an effort to justify

13 its proposal to force the installation of even more

14 controls sooner.

15 PacifiCorp believes that EPA's proposal 18:37:57

16 fails to give proper deference to the State of

17 Arizona's regional haze determinations as required by

18 the Clean Air Act and impermissibly substitutes EPA's

19 judgment for that of the State of Arizona.

20 EPA's proposal fails to properly consider 18:38:14

21 emission reductions already achieved and imposes costs

22 with no perceptible improvement in visibility.

23 Between 2005 and 2011, PacifiCorp spent

24 approximately 1.4 billion dollars to reduce emissions

25 at its generating facilities in order to comply with 18:38:29
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1 the regional haze programs approved by Utah, Wyoming,

2 and Arizona, including approximately 160 million

3 dollars to install a new scrubber, baghouse, and low

4 NOx burners on Cholla Unit 4 in 2008.

5 However, the EPA has proposed to require 18:38:44

6 additional controls on PacifiCorp's Cholla Unit 4,

7 justifying its position in part by analyzing Cholla

8 Unit 4 as if the controls installed in 2008 did not

9 exist and the associated emissions reductions never

10 occurred, resulting in understated costs per ton of 18:38:58

11 emissions removed and overstated benefits from the

12 installation of SCR to achieve a visibility goal

13 established for the year 2064.

14 Using EPA's outdated modeling used to

15 predict the visibility impacts, the benefits associated 18:39:12

16 with adding SCR to all three BART-eligible units at the

17 Cholla plant is predicted to be an imperceptible 0.65

18 deciviews on a limited numbers of days per year. When

19 the updated, more accurate models are used, the

20 visibility improvement is predicted to be 0.04 18:39:31

21 deciviews.

22 Requiring PacifiCorp to spend

23 approximately 125 to 150 million dollars to install SCR

24 on Cholla 4 prior to 2018, with increases in the annual

25 operating expenditures by approximately two to four 18:39:42
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1 million in order to obtain the imperceptible visibility

2 improvements that have been modeled by EPA is an

3 unnecessary financial burden on all PacifiCorp

4 customers, with no visibility improvement.

5 In conclusion, PacifiCorp urges EPA to 18:39:56

6 adopt the carefully developed Arizona Regional Haze SIP

7 in its totality and withdraw its proposal. Thank you

8 very much.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: The next batch of

10 speakers can come up. Representative Brenda Barton. 18:40:20

11 Supervisor J.R. DeSpain, Gary Pierce, chairman of the

12 Arizona Corporation Commission. Allen Bushman, and

13 Andy Bessler.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Barton, you can

15 come up. 18:41:05

16 MS. BARTON: Representative Brenda Barton,

17 b-a-r-t-o-n. I'm currently representing Legislative

18 District 5, which is where two of the power plants are

19 located. I am on the Energy and Natural Resources

20 Committee. 18:41:31

21 The Arizona House of Representatives

22 respectfully requests cooperation and coordination with

23 the Environment Protection Agency. Arizona has made

24 great strides to work with the EPA for several years,

25 especially in the area where our air quality is 18:41:52
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1 concerned.

2 It is unfortunate that a lawsuit filed by

3 several environmental organizations against the EPA for

4 not more expeditiously addressing regional haze is

5 jeopardizing our efforts of working together as 18:42:10

6 intended in the Clean Air Act.

7 The Clean Air Act definitely states that

8 EPA shall encourage coordination and cooperation by

9 state and local governments, promote reasonable state

10 and local government actions, and that air pollution 18:42:26

11 control and prevention is the primary responsibility of

12 the state and local government as listed in 101 and

13 102.

14 However, Arizona has not found a manner in

15 which the EPA has stated in regards to the regional 18:42:41

16 haze lawsuit, settlement, and proposed rule making to

17 be encouraging or reasonable.

18 The EPA's immediate imposition of the

19 proposed Federal Implementation Plan without providing

20 the State with the opportunity to understand and 18:43:03

21 correct any perceived deficiencies in the State plan is

22 contrary to the Clean Air Act.

23 It is also troubling that the EPA is not

24 providing ample opportunity for proper analysis and

25 comment on the proposed Federal Implementation Plan. 18:43:23
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1 Clearly States are soon to understand and

2 -- understand the balances and the benefits associated

3 with these plans, and are in the best position to work

4 cohesively and productively with the EPA in addressing

5 the regional haze issues and taking into consideration 18:43:42

6 our local environment, our jobs, and our economies that

7 these types of regulations put in jeopardy.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

9 Supervisor DeSpain?

10 MR. DE SPAIN: Thank you. For the record, 18:44:04

11 I'm J.R. DeSpain, Chairman of the Navajo County Board

12 of Supervisors. First of all, let me thank everyone

13 who's here at this meeting tonight. Thank you for

14 bringing this meeting to Holbrook. There's thousands

15 of letters out there. Please read them and read the 18:44:21

16 concerns of these citizens and the truthfulness of

17 what's really happening in Navajo and Apache County.

18 I appreciate the efforts of the industry

19 to bring the details to us at the Navajo County so that

20 we can understand the real issues. The Clean Air Act 18:44:40

21 is codified representative bargaining. Definitely

22 states that the EPA shall encourage cooperative efforts

23 by state and local government, promote reasonable state

24 and local government actions, and that air pollution

25 quality and prevention is the primary responsibility of 18:45:04
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1 the state and local governments.

2 We all know that perception is reality.

3 And in this case, whether it's intended or not, EPA has

4 forgot that the perception is part of it. They've

5 forgotten the concerns of the communities and there 18:45:26

6 must be an agenda of the EPA against coal-powered

7 plants. Whether or not this is the case, our community

8 would be seriously damaged, our jobs would be

9 threatened, our homes would be threatened. Please

10 allow the power plants to continue to operate and serve 18:45:45

11 the public interest.

12 I'm asking you two things on behalf of

13 Navajo County. I'm asking EPA to take action based on

14 scientific and public image; provide Arizona Department

15 of Environmental Quality the opportunity to collaborate 18:46:05

16 with EPA; revise the State Implementation Plan and

17 commit that that would modify the federal plan and

18 would appear to be the true intent of the Clean Air

19 Act. Extend the deadlines on comments for those who

20 wish to speak; allow the necessary implementation and 18:46:26

21 analysis and review of the technical nature of this

22 proposal. Thank you.

23 MR. PIERCE: My name is Gary Pierce.

24 G-a-r-y. P-i-e-r-c-e. I'm chairman of the Arizona

25 Corporation Commission which regulates Arizona investor 18:46:53
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1 owned cooperative utilities and sets the rates paid by

2 their customers.

3 On July 23, 2012, I sent a letter along

4 with two other commissioners in opposition of the

5 Federal Implementation Plan. 18:47:09

6 On July 31, 2012, I also spoke in Arizona

7 to the FIP proposal at EPA's public comment in Phoenix,

8 and I'll see you tomorrow in Benson.

9 In my role as commissioner, I strive to

10 keep utility rates to the companies and cooperatives 18:47:24

11 that I regulate as stable and as low as reasonably

12 possible for the benefit of Arizona citizens and

13 businesses.

14 I know that economic development in

15 Arizona greatly depends upon our ability to provide 18:47:38

16 safe, reliable and economic energy to millions of

17 customers. For this reason I am greatly concerned

18 about the EPA's proposed FIP.

19 If the adopted EPA -- if adopted, EPA's FIP

20 would cost Arizona's rate payers greatly. Arizona 18:47:51

21 Public Service Company which operates the Cholla plant

22 that has already spent 324 million dollars to improve

23 visibility, and the proposed FIP would require an

24 additional 311 million dollars.

25 Salt River Project is in the process of 18:48:05
27

1 spending five hundred million at its Coronado facility

2 to reduce emissions. Under the FIP, they would be

3 required to spend another 110 million.

4 AEPCO which provides most of the

5 electricity to supply customers of five electric 18:48:20

6 cooperatives in Arizona would have to invest an

7 additional 218 million under the EPA's FIP.

8 To place this in perspective, AEPCO

9 recently filed a rate case, and AEPCO currently reports

10 to having a total of 232 million in net utility 18:48:37

11 plant-in-service. In other words, EPA's FIP would

12 require AEPCO to double its net plant-in-service.

13 The magnitude of the EPA's FIP, it ruins

14 the viability of the three coal plants in question.

15 Jobs are at stake. This region is already suffering 18:48:53

16 with the announced closure of the paper plant in

17 Snowflake.

18 Now that I've addressed the cost of EPA's

19 FIP, let me address its benefit. Of course you can all

20 recognize and appreciate that the environmental 18:49:04

21 benefits of clean air are certainly worthy of expense.

22 Sometimes significant expense. However, in this case,

23 EPA's FIP does not even come close to surviving a good

24 faith cost benefit analysis.

25 First, we should recognize that the 18:49:18
28

1 regional haze rule and the FIP prepared by EPA does not

2 protect human health, only human vistas.

3 Second, the incremental improvement of

4 EPA's FIP over Arizona's SIP would be less than one

5 deciview. In other words, there will be no visible 18:49:37

6 improvement. Even if we accept EPA's cumulative

7 deciview total, which we believe is flawed, EPA's FIP

8 would provide negligible benefit to human visibility.

9 In sum, EPA's FIP proposal would impose

10 significant costs upon Arizona utilities, necessarily 18:49:55

11 cause electric rates in Arizona to increase, and result

12 in no perceptible improvement over Arizona's SIP

13 proposal.

14 I'm also concerned about EPA's public

15 process for the proposed FIP. I included those in my 18:50:08

16 written statement that I submitted on July 31. In

17 light of the time, I will not restate them here.

18 I simply urge the EPA to withdraw the FIP

19 of the three plants in question and work with ADEQ to

20 remedy deficiencies in the FIP it has proposed. Thank 18:50:30

21 you.

22 MR. BUSHMAN: Good evening. My name is

23 Allen Bushman. That's Allen spelled with two L's and

24 an E. Bushman just like it sounds. I'm the production

25 manager at Arizona Public Service Cholla power plant. 18:50:47
29

1 Cholla is one of the plants impacted by your July 2nd

2 announcement proposing a rule for regional haze in

3 Arizona.

4 A little background on myself. I started

5 working for APS in May of 1976 as a temporary employee. 18:51:01

6 In November of that same year, I was hired on as a

7 full-time employee. Except for an eight-month period

8 when I worked at the company's corporate headquarters,

9 I worked my entire career at the Cholla power plant. I

10 also have lived all but the eight months of my 54 years 18:51:20

11 in Joseph City. In addition to my employment at

12 Cholla, I own and operate a small ranch that my great

13 grandfather started in 1876. My entire family, which

14 includes Terry, my wife of 37 years, my five children

15 and ten grandchildren, nine who have live in Joseph 18:51:37

16 City, plus two more grandchildren who are on the way

17 have benefited from my job at Cholla, and at times

18 depended on it.

19 And my family is not the only one. The

20 local community in this area also depend on the jobs 18:51:49

21 and support that we receive from this plant and its

22 employers.

23 Last year alone, more than 260 of our

24 employees contributed over 100 thousand dollars to the

25 United Way charity. 18:52:04
30

1 Implementing the proposed rules will force

2 my plant to install SCR for NOx control. Installing

3 SCR will cost my company 370 million dollars. That is

4 370 million dollars in addition to the 324 million

5 dollars APS already spent on pollution controls in 18:52:25

6 support of the Arizona SIP. Included in that 324

7 million dollars is the 18 million dollars for

8 installing low NOx burners and low fire air control.

9 That 370 million dollars also is in addition to the 129

10 million dollars APS plans to spend on the Unit 2 18:52:44

11 scrubber upgrade and baghouse installation in support

12 of the SIP.

13 This rule threatens the long-term

14 viability of units at my plant.

15 Regional haze is supposed to be about 18:52:55

16 reasonable progress towards visibility improvement

17 through 2064. Yet you are driving my plant to be on

18 best visibility technology in this planning cycle.

19 Doing so could ultimately lead the units to close and

20 the loss of jobs. The proposed rule's potential impact 18:53:11

21 on the local economy, my coworkers, local union workers

22 who support us during our overhauls, and the businesses

23 who rely on us who provide their services and materials

24 will be significant.

25 How can you justify in these hard economic 18:53:28
31

1 times jeopardizing jobs and costing our rate payers

2 more money for this proposed action that has no value

3 detectable to the human eye?

4 I'm here today to express as both a worker

5 at the plant and a rate player my extreme 18:53:43

6 disappointment in the EPA's proposed FIP plan.

7 Your plan mandating the addition of expensive catalytic

8 reduction technology after APS already installed low

9 NOx burners and supported low fire air control. We did

10 this voluntarily in support of the Arizona State 18:54:01

11 Implementation Plan determination, and we have done our

12 best to operate the units below the plant's permitted

13 level.

14 In addition, the FIP determination of the

15 added low NOx burners and low fire air control were not 18:54:12

16 rejected because of the use of SCR technology to reduce

17 NOx as BART. They rejected SCR because of its

18 unreasonable high costs coupled with the lack of

19 visibility improvement that would result from its use.

20 Living in the southwest my entire life, I 18:54:28

21 appreciate the beauty of our nearby national parks

22 including the Grand Canyon and the need to protect

23 them. I do not however, understand the need for you to

24 dictate a Federal Implementation Plan requiring SCR's

25 which those SCR's have no perceptible difference and 18:54:48
32

1 will potentially jeopardize one or more units in my

2 plant and cost people in my community and the

3 surrounding community their jobs. Thank you.

4 MR. BESSLER: Thank you. My name is Andy

5 Bessler. I'm a representative of the Sierra Club. The 18:55:15

6 Sierra Club will be joining other conservation groups

7 in submitting comments to EPA regarding our support to

8 clean up the dirty coal plants discussed tonight. It's

9 against the law to pollute natural parks, and it has

10 been since 1977. The Federal Clean Air Act of 1977 18:55:34

11 says that, quote, "Congress hereby declares as a

12 national goal the prevention of any future and the

13 remedying of any existing impairment of visibility in

14 mandatory Class I federal areas which impairment

15 results from manmade air pollution." That's clear, but 18:55:54

16 the air around these areas are not.

17 These are places we all know, Grand Canyon

18 and Petrified Forest, for example. There are a dozen

19 such places in Arizona, and another five in New Mexico

20 and Colorado areas, which are in air range of these 18:56:11

21 coal-burning power plants. In fact, each of these

22 plants is as close as 40 miles to at least one national

23 park.

24 But as Mr. Pierce indicated, I disagree

25 this is not just an issue of regional haze. This is a 18:56:27
33

1 national issue and will save lives. Air pollution you

2 can see is the stuff you breathe. These three plants

3 put out a million pounds of toxins every year. They

4 emit 23 thousand tons of sulfur dioxide and 24 thousand

5 tons of NOx annually. 18:56:45

6 That leads to more problems, hospital and

7 doctor visits, heart attacks and human deaths.

8 According to the Clean Air Task Force, these three

9 plants collectively cause nearly 41 deaths, 62 heart

10 attacks, 747 asthma attacks, 30 hospital admissions, 30 18:57:04

11 emergency room visits, and 26 cases of chronic

12 bronchitis, causing Arizonans almost 314 million

13 dollars in health expenses every year.

14 EPA's actions will help improve the health

15 of all in Arizona. According to Doctor Barbara Warren 18:57:22

16 with Physicians for Social Responsibility, quote, "Any

17 step we take to reduce emissions of coal plants will

18 have an immediate and beneficial benefit to the health

19 of families."

20 What EPA is proposing should help older 18:57:37

21 children from having attacks and help adults who suffer

22 chronic lung disease and heart disease. Our health is

23 far too important to have second-grade pollution

24 controls at these toxic coal plants. The Clean Air Act

25 requires that the best available pollution control be 18:57:53
34

1 installed, not cheaper, secondary stuff that won't do

2 the job nearly as well.

3 Thanks to the EPA for insisting on

4 cleaning up the air for all Arizona when our own State

5 department won't do that. I would urge the people to 18:58:10

6 consider, if you have people with asthma, would you

7 want them to have toxic plant emissions? Thank you.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: I would like to

9 remind everybody that we're here to listen to everyone

10 and want to provide everyone an equal amount of time. 18:59:11

11 Please do not distract or make loud noises while other

12 speakers are speaking.

13 The following five speakers please come

14 up. Kathy Hemenway. Tank Peterson. Senator Sylvia

15 Allen with District Five. Vincent Yazzie and Debbie 18:59:38

16 Tuckfield.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Kathy Hemenway.

18 MS. HEMENWAY: My name is Kathy Hemenway,

19 K-a-t-h-y, H-e-m-e-n-w-a-y. I would like to thank

20 representatives of the U.S. EPA, Arizona Department of 19:00:30

21 Conservation Associates, and Navajo County for talking

22 with me about this issue. I would also like to thank

23 Ed Fox and others from EPA for speaking at public

24 meetings last year regarding environment issues and

25 plans at Cholla power plant. 19:00:45
35

1 To succeed at solving our problems, we

2 need to work together. As people have said tonight

3 already, this proposal was not developed with within

4 the State/Federal collaborative model specified in the

5 Federal Clean Air Act and the Regional Haze Rule. 19:01:02

6 I understand that because of all of the

7 lawsuits against the EPA that were filed a year ago and

8 because of judicial decisions associated with those

9 lawsuits, the EPA was forbidden from working with

10 Arizona. 19:01:15

11 They were also forbidden from working with

12 the dozens of other states affected by similar

13 lawsuits. The EPA and the State of Arizona should be

14 allowed to go back to the drawing board. Thank you.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Tank Peterson. 19:01:43

16 MR. PETERSON: It's Merlin Tank Peterson.

17 Most people don't know who Merlin is. That's why the

18 Tank is in there. I sit on the board of directors for

19 Navapache District Coop. We cover, my district is

20 St. Johns, Vernon, and Concho. 19:02:03

21 Okay. A lot of people that work in the

22 plant at St. Johns come from St. Johns. They're in my

23 district. They're covered by it. And also I've got 35

24 years boilermaking experience building these power

25 plants that you guys want to shut down. My first job 19:02:20
36

1 as an apprentice was in St. Johns, and probably 20, 25

2 percent of my experience and income came from Cholla.

3 And in the years that when I started as an

4 apprentice in '77 until I retired last year, the

5 difference in the way we build the power plants to meet 19:02:36

6 your standards has changed immensely.

7 And according to your website, which I

8 looked at last night on the haze rules, you look at the

9 California, Washington, and Oregon coast, 25 to 30 --

10 25 to 45 percent of the haze there is brought on by 19:02:58

11 coal-fired power plants. Well, there are no coal-fired

12 power plants there. When I was in China, they didn't

13 put any EPA stuff, any scrubbers, oh, and whatever.

14 And according to your website, in three days time, the

15 smog from Asia hits the west coast. 19:03:19

16 When you get to the Grand Canyon,

17 Petrified Forest, there's very, very, very little

18 difference between the haze there caused by coal-fired

19 power plants and the ones on the west coast.

20 What you're doing now is taking jobs, 19:03:34

21 money, and raising the rates for my customers, my coop

22 members, not customers. They own the company. We buy

23 our electricity from coal-fired power plants.

24 Again, we're here to make a living, keep

25 our families healthy. And even though this Sierra 19:03:55
37

1 Club, what he's had to say, we've gone, according to

2 your website, we've gone 85 to 90 percent cleaner than

3 we were in 1977, including this region here. Thank you

4 for the time to speak.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sylvia Allen. 19:04:17

6 MS. ALLEN: Good evening. I'm Senator

7 Sylvia Allen. I live in Snowflake, and this is my

8 district. And just before I get started with my

9 remarks, I Ms. Ed something tonight, because in rural

10 Arizona people still pray and pledge when we start 19:04:33

11 meetings.

12 Please don't count that against my time.

13 What EPA is proposing, it's outrageous. It's

14 absolutely outrageous. First the EPA plan threatens

15 the viability of our power plants which means that it 19:05:06

16 threatens the viability, economic viability of our

17 families.

18 The utilities that own these plants have

19 already spent hundreds of millions of dollars to

20 install new scrubbers, baghouses, and low NOx burners. 19:05:19

21 Requiring the utilities to spend hundreds of millions

22 more to comply with new NOx controls may force the

23 utility to shut down one or more units. And, sirs, we

24 are already at capacity in our plants.

25 This will lead to significant loss of jobs 19:05:34
38

1 and reduction in the products and services that support

2 the plant, all of which would devastate the economy of

3 Navajo County.

4 And we cannot lose one more job in our

5 county. We've just received the sad news that our 19:05:47

6 paper mill is shutting down.

7 Second, if the EPA plan is implemented,

8 the Arizona utilities will have to pay as much as one

9 billion dollars to comply. Those costs will be passed

10 on to Arizona consumers in the form of higher 19:06:02

11 electricity costs. Is that really a good idea?

12 It amazes me that you think it's a good

13 idea to take one billion out of the wallets of Arizona

14 working families at the very moment that our State is

15 trying to recover from a recession. 19:06:17

16 EPA threatens our health, safety, and

17 economic ability to provide for the food and shelter of

18 our families.

19 Third, EPA's plan does nothing to improve

20 visibility. Absolutely nothing. May I state, this has 19:06:30

21 nothing to do with health. That's a 20-year-old

22 propaganda that we listened to previously. This has

23 nothing to do with health. It has to do with

24 visibility. You can't see it, so it's not going to

25 help at all. 19:06:42
39

1 Let's summarize. EPA's plan forces

2 Arizona utilities to purchase and install incredibly

3 expensive equipment that makes no change or difference

4 in visibility, threatens the survival of three small

5 Arizona communities whose economies depend on these 19:06:57

6 power plants for hundreds of jobs, and threatens the

7 economy of the entire State by increasing the cost of

8 electricity by as much as a billion dollars. All for

9 what? None of this makes sense. Unless it's to

10 further the Obama's administration radical 19:07:15

11 environmental agenda, which includes eliminating coal

12 as the source of cheap electric power, then it starts

13 to make sense.

14 Well, EPA, I'm sorry to tell you, you are

15 losing the respect of the American people, because now 19:07:35

16 you have become political bullies. You are our public

17 servants; not our masters. It's time for the states --

18 we are in tremendous amount of debt nationally. We've

19 got to minimize the Federal government. It's time for

20 the states to take back control of our air, water, and 19:07:54

21 land.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Vincent Yazzie.

23 MR. YAZZIE: That's Vincent Yazzie.

24 V-i-n-c-e-n-t. Y-a-z-z-i-e. When microdust is the

25 white cloud, smaller it tends to implant itself in the 19:08:33
40

1 lungs. Black dust is large, can be expelled from the

2 lungs. Nitrogen dioxide there in terms of nitric acid

3 inhaled into the lungs causes damage, cumulative, 20 to

4 30-year range. One expected toll of that is Tom Taylor

5 passed away recently, died of cancer, emphysema. 19:08:54

6 Emphysema damaged his heart. We will be in a nursing

7 home 20 or 30 years from now trying to get oxygen

8 because of lung damage.

9 There are future wells located here and

10 there. We have (Inaudible) three feet above the 19:09:13

11 geometric surface. APS has drained those, emptied

12 those out. APS is blaming the drought. Our ash ponds

13 on the mill, they're on-line, monitored but there's

14 aluminum stands, so there's some question as to whether

15 those chemicals are headed into your water supply. 19:09:38

16 Selective catalytic reduction. The NO-2 level's to 99

17 percent NO-2, and low NOx gets rid of 90 percent.

18 Lot of power plants back east, they have

19 pretty much have been scrapped. They've been rebuilt.

20 So it's like a 60's Mustang and buying the new Mustang 19:10:05

21 with all the emission control. So, in fact, it would

22 bring more jobs to the area. Okay.

23 The GDP for Phoenix metro and Tucson is

24 two hundred billions dollars a year. So if we sent our

25 power down there, it doesn't make a lot of money. APS 19:10:24
41

1 two years ago made one billion dollars. They took in a

2 hundred million of that is -- that went to

3 shareholders. They're probably out spending plenty on

4 all that money. They record a two hundred million net.

5 No one's making a better deal. You're 19:10:49

6 taking all the health problems, and they're taking all

7 the money. So I suggest you ask for a brand new power

8 plant to bring more jobs to the area. The people back

9 east they are on-line.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Debby Tuckfield. 19:11:21

11 MS. TUCKFIELD: My name is Debbie, and

12 it's D-e-b-b-i-e. I'm here tonight in hopes that the

13 information does not fall on deaf ears.

14 In recent years the citizens of the

15 community of the White Mountains and Little Colorado 19:11:38

16 River Plateau have been under attack. This attack

17 started long ago with the issue of the habitat for the

18 spotted owl versus logging. Small communities in White

19 Mountains suffered both personally and economically.

20 We have been forced to watch our pristine forest 19:11:54

21 grounds become overgrown. The result of this great

22 stand to preserve nature was brought forth in the

23 culmination of the Rodeo Chedeski fire in June of 2002,

24 soon followed by a natural disaster known as the Wallow

25 fire. 19:12:12
42

1 Day after day I listened to reports of the

2 smoke that was being carried to the valley and their

3 air quality warnings. Do the citizens of the valley

4 area look at the brown cloud they live in on a daily

5 basis contributed to by the use of automobiles? All 19:12:31

6 the while we watched the forests and homes be destroyed

7 and the entire White Mountain area and Little Colorado

8 River valley or plateau. We are now being blamed for

9 the haze that has infiltrated the Grand Canyon National

10 Park. 19:12:47

11 Our nature industry and job providers are

12 now being threatened with closure. They are accused of

13 not doing enough to comply with what the FIP and the

14 EPA have requested. The closure of coal-burning power

15 plants will end up killing the White Mountains and the 19:13:04

16 Little Colorado River plateau. One would think the

17 environmentalists have a plan of destruction of rural

18 Arizona.

19 I have looked at several studies. St.

20 Johns airport weather station reported for a 12-month 19:13:21

21 period the prevailing winds blew south and southeast.

22 On my map, the Grand Canyon appeared to be northwest of

23 the SRP power plant in St. Johns. The Winslow airport

24 weather station which is in close vicinity to the

25 Cholla power plant reported for a 12-month period that 19:13:41
43

1 the prevailing winds were blowing south and southeast

2 and occasionally southwest. Again, the Grand Canyon

3 appears to be located in the northwest of the Cholla

4 power plant. I think common logic may tell you that

5 there may be another cause for haze in the Grand 19:14:00

6 Canyon.

7 We live in a rural area. We choose to

8 live here. We have family here. And I'm speaking as a

9 native of Arizona, a third generation native Arizonan.

10 Our fourth and fifth generations are now being forced 19:14:14

11 to move because of hundreds of jobs lost due to the

12 closure of the Catalyst Paper Mill and the proposed

13 closure of these three power plants in the name of the

14 environment.

15 We want to protect the environment for our 19:14:27

16 future generations. That's always been in our

17 heritage. But there has to be a balance between human

18 destruction and environmental destruction. In my

19 opinion, northern Arizona is being unfairly targeted by

20 EPA and the environmentalists that do not care about 19:14:45

21 the human destruction that they are creating.

22 It's also my opinion that the large

23 metropolitan areas don't have to conform to the strong

24 environmental laws that we have been made to follow.

25 One only has to drive into the large cities of Arizona 19:14:59
44

1 and look at the dark brown haze that envelops the city

2 and know they are not in compliance of any law. Not to

3 mention the use of the water that is being used by

4 these cities, precious water that they have taken from

5 us to accommodate larger cities. But that will be a 19:15:20

6 fight at a later date.

7 I do hope you take to heart what you have

8 heard here today and tonight and they are pleas of

9 desperation. Thank you for your time, and I appreciate

10 it. 19:15:48

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Will the next five

12 speakers please come up. Bill Faurot, Rick Taylor,

13 Karen MacKean. Stephen Etsitty and John Lee.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: I hear that John Lee

15 is gone, so I'll call Percy -- John Lee is here. 19:16:50

16 Bill Faurot, you can come up when you're

17 ready.

18 MR. FAUROT: My name is Bill Faurot,

19 f-a-u-r-o-t. My remarks are unprepared. You must

20 understand the skepticism which the people who live up 19:17:11

21 here have of another federal agency telling us how to

22 live our lives.

23 We have lost, since 2002, almost one

24 million acres due to the environmentalists who were

25 telling us how the federal forests should be managed. 19:17:31
45

1 Now there is no habitat for the spotted owl, but we

2 have created an enormous pasture for elk. Thank you

3 for your time.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Rick Taylor.

5 MR. TAYLOR: Rick Taylor. My wife and I 19:18:05

6 have lived here --

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Can you get closer

8 to the mic, please?

9 MR. TAYLOR: My wife and I have lived here

10 for 35 years. As residents of northern Arizona, we're 19:18:15

11 deeply concerned about the potential effect of your

12 rule requiring the Apache power plant and Coronado

13 power plant, and Cholla to achieve .05 pounds per

14 million B.T.U. NOx. Some of these plants are presently

15 running about .2 pounds after they've made hundreds of 19:18:36

16 millions of dollars of NOx and SIP removal. We are

17 told that the NOx removal requirement you are proposing

18 to these plants is likely to have the effect of forcing

19 their closure which would have a devastating effect on

20 northern Arizona's economy which has already suffered 19:18:54

21 because of the closure of the paper mill in Snowflake.

22 The closure of the paper mill will cost the region more

23 than three hundred jobs directly and a good deal more

24 indirectly.

25 The imposition of the .05 pounds could 19:19:08
46

1 have a compound effect, throwing the region in an

2 economic crisis of great proportions.

3 We are told that the purpose of the .05

4 NOx requirement is to reduce regional haze, and thereby

5 improve visibility. We're also told that the 19:19:27

6 difference between the NOx emissions now and the .05

7 will not be visible to us or to those who visit the

8 Grand Canyon, the Petrified Forest or other national

9 parks in Arizona.

10 This deepens the tragedy of the impact. 19:19:45

11 Families, businesses, societies that have lived here

12 for generations will be harmed irreparably or lost.

13 We believe this is neither reasonable nor

14 fair nor just. We believe that our future of northern

15 Arizona and its residents is at stake with the 19:20:04

16 implementation of your proposal.

17 We therefore urge you to reconsider your

18 proposal to require these plants to achieve .05 pounds

19 per million BTU NOx. We ask that you find a solution

20 that does not harm the people of northern Arizona; that 19:20:23

21 will enable them to pursue the lives that they are

22 entitled to as are all Americans.

23 We ask that you give full consideration of

24 the potentially tragic consequences that implementation

25 of this rule will cause, especially and specifically 19:20:37
47

1 when the terms of that are extremely damaging to the

2 regional economies.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

4 MS. MACKEAN: Karen MacKean,

5 m-a-c-k-e-a-n. I'm chairman of the Navajo County 19:21:03

6 Republican committee, but I'm here as a citizen today.

7 As a citizen of Arizona, I object to the

8 EPA interference in Arizona and I object to the

9 representative from the Sierra Club with his

10 irresponsible and bizarre lies trying to scare all the 19:21:22

11 old people and babies.

12 Since 2009 122 coal-fired power plants

13 have been closed by the EPA in the United States of

14 America, putting 20 thousand people out of work. The

15 EPA bureaucrats were paid by the very people, the very 19:21:48

16 people, the taxpayers you intend to put out of work in

17 this economy. How do you even begin to justify these

18 actions?

19 I request the EPA withdraw its proposal

20 and support the State's comprehensive haze program. 19:22:03

21 Thank you very much.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Stephen Etsitty.

23 MR. ETSITTY: Good evening. I'm Stephen

24 Etsitty. I'm the executive director for the Navajo

25 Nation Environmental Protection Agency. On behalf of 19:22:33
48

1 the Navajo Nation, I offer these comments. First, I

2 would like to thank EPA for extending the comment

3 period and affording the local community more

4 opportunity to comment.

5 The way forward and looking at something 19:22:49

6 other than a Federal Implementation Plan for a state is

7 possible. After I finish here, I will be traveling to

8 Sante Fe to work with the State of New Mexico who was

9 operating under a stay issued by Administrator Jackson

10 so that the New Mexico State Implementation Plan can 19:23:12

11 get some more consideration. So it's possible.

12 The Nation has great interests in a wide

13 range of air quality actions, clean air actions that

14 have been proposed and promulgated over the past

15 several years. The -- in particular, the BART 19:23:37

16 determination. Also, we've got two facilities on the

17 Navajo Nation directly impacted by these BART

18 decisions. And we share the concerns of the State of

19 New Mexico and the State of Arizona in terms of what

20 they're trying to achieve with their State 19:23:51

21 Implementation Plans.

22 President Shelly met with Governor Jan

23 Brewer today to articulate those concerns. And we're

24 working together, Navajo Nation and the State of

25 Arizona, the Navajo Nation and the State of New Mexico 19:24:06
49

1 to make an impact on the decision that EPA is making in

2 these BART determinations to afford the states and the

3 interest of the Navajo Nation the opportunity to chart

4 a path forward in terms of improving regional haze.

5 We understand the best is not always about 19:24:26

6 choosing SCR's as the most -- as the technology most

7 capable of reducing emissions, but it's comprised of

8 the analysis of the five factors that you're required

9 to consider which includes non-air quality issues like

10 the impact to the economy. 19:24:49

11 So we look, also, at some of the other

12 limitations that we realized as we've worked with folks

13 in EPA and the states and with people in the industry,

14 the utilities providers, and the owners of the

15 facilities. 19:25:04

16 One of the things that I'm somewhat

17 perplexed at is that we have one instance where a major

18 power plant in this region was shut down: Mohave

19 Generating Station in 2005. It was a BART eligible

20 facility. Since it's been closed, we have yet to see a 19:25:27

21 definitive analysis of the visibility improvements from

22 that removal of those emission sources.

23 So my concern moving forward is that we do

24 rely on real data and, you know, modeling is what it

25 is. It doesn't get us all the way there. 19:25:49
50

1 I think the other point that I'd like to

2 make as a person of the Nation, we do have concerns

3 about public health, but we lack the baseline to

4 measure the improvements, and I think we lack that here

5 in northern Arizona, as well. 19:26:02

6 So I would like to -- it's comments that

7 we've made in other actions. It's comments that we

8 will continue to make. But we need a real, meaningful

9 public health baseline in order to chart any public

10 health improvements that are going to be approached by 19:26:17

11 this type of regulatory decision or any other Clean Air

12 Act regulatory decision. Thank you very much.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: John Lee.

14 MR. LEE: My name is John Lee. Nobody's

15 ever asked me how to spell either one of those. I am a 19:26:44

16 Supervisor for District Three in Apache County. Last

17 summer most of my district burned up in the Wallow

18 fire, half a million acres. We're still reeling from

19 the effects of that. And we believe and our ordinances

20 that we passed at the time recognized that we again are 19:27:05

21 the victim of a rogue federal agency. The United

22 States Forest Service with its policies driven by

23 radicalism allowed an overgrowth in that forest to such

24 an extent that many acres had many times the fuel load

25 in them the forest service said was acceptable. 19:27:32
51

1 Now we've got the EPA. If the Wallow fire

2 wasn't enough, EPA shows up and imposes emissions

3 regulations prematurely. And I'm a recovering lawyer.

4 I'm going to leave the niceties of the law to those who

5 will certainly file lawsuits in this matter. 19:27:53

6 But on the other hand, we have to be

7 focused. We could talk about all of what you're doing

8 and what you're not doing. We need to understand that

9 this is part of this administration's war on coal and

10 on the energy sources that drive our lives and drive 19:28:08

11 our economy.

12 Let me read you a quote from President

13 Obama. He says if someone wants to builds a coal

14 plant, they can. It's just that it will bankrupt them,

15 because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all 19:28:25

16 the greenhouse gases that's being emitted.

17 Let's not lose focus on what this is.

18 This is a war on coal and American energy, and the EPA

19 is the weapon of choice at this point.

20 We would urge the EPA to back away to the 19:28:44

21 extent that you can back away from the policies of the

22 current administration, allow the states to make these

23 determinations that was originally intended in all of

24 the legislation that I've seen. Thank you.

25 THE HEARING OFFICER: We're going to take 19:29:18
52

1 a ten-minute break. And we'll return.

2 (A brief recess was taken at 7:38 p.m.)

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: If everyone could

4 take your seats, we'll begin.

5 The following speakers please come up: 19:40:39

6 Percy Deal. Adella Begaye. Anna M. Frazier. Kevin

7 Fish and Kent Gibson.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Percy Deal, if you

9 will come up when you're ready.

10 MR. DEAL: Good evening. My name is Percy 19:42:08

11 Deal. I'm a former member of the Navajo County Board

12 of Supervisors. I'm also currently serving as the

13 president for the Navajo Nation Chapter which is

14 located on the Black Mesa community. I live on Black

15 Mesa just below the Peabody mine. Not too long ago, as 19:42:33

16 a matter of fact, 20 years ago, I could see the San

17 Francisco peak from where I live, and the peak is 150

18 miles away. Today I no longer see that due to the

19 haze. And I invite you to come up and try to see that

20 peak. 19:42:52

21 Arizona mandatory Class I lists several

22 parks. Not on that list are Canyon de Chelly, Navajo

23 National Monument, Monument Valley that are all located

24 on the Navajo reservation, and also the Keet Seel on

25 the Navajo and Hopi reservation. 19:43:17
53

1 Imagine having six old vehicles parked

2 with the back-end toward your house, and they are

3 running all the time, and they are always -- and

4 they've been running for 40 years. They're all old.

5 They are releasing a lot of emissions and so on. 19:43:36

6 Three of those plants at issue today --

7 three of those plants are at issue today. The other

8 three are on the Navajo reservation.

9 The National Academy of Science a number

10 of years ago did a study. They concluded that some 19:43:53

11 areas of the country could be used for national

12 priority, irrespective of resulting permanent

13 environmental damages. Such places are designated as

14 national sacrifice area. Many Indian reservations are

15 located in such areas, like all of the Navajo and Hopi 19:44:20

16 reservations.

17 They had concluded that people's lives in

18 those sacrifice areas, that their well-being can be

19 forfeited so that the rest of the country can enjoy

20 cheap energy. 19:44:36

21 I hope that we in northern Arizona are not

22 headed in that direction. Someone once said we are all

23 in one spaceship called Spaceship Earth. With no other

24 option, we must care for this spaceship. Caring for

25 northern Arizona will insure tourism business to be 19:44:59
54

1 very strong and contribute to its strong economy.

2 It provides jobs and taxes. It also

3 provides revenue, jobs, and taxes through the Navajo

4 reservation.

5 I would like to request EPA conduct a 19:45:17

6 similar EIS on the Navajo reservation and hold hearing

7 regarding Peabody and the Navajo Generating Station. I

8 also request that EPA do apply their policy for cleaner

9 and healthier environment.

10 I want to also give you a copy of the 19:45:36

11 Arizona Republican article dated in May of this year.

12 It has to do with the Navajo Generating Station and

13 also its impacts on the Navajo reservation. Thank you.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Adella Begaye.

15 MS. BEGAYE: Good evening. My name is 19:46:12

16 Adella Begaye. I am from a place called Chinle,

17 Arizona. I'm here this morning to speak as a mother, a

18 grandmother, and member of the Navajo Nation. And I am

19 speaking for the grassroot people, the people that are

20 living on the land, the land that is being impacted. 19:46:32

21 The Navajo Nation is surrounded by five

22 power plants. And tonight we're talking about regional

23 haze. Somehow regional seems to imply that the wind,

24 the air stops at a certain boundary. It does not. We

25 are being surrounded by five power plants. And as Mr. 19:46:57
55

1 Deal have said, we are breathing the toxic air every

2 day.

3 And as my profession, I'm a professional

4 healthcare worker. I've been a registered nurse for 40

5 years, close to 40 years. When I was young I used to 19:47:14

6 interpret for people, and in those days I rarely saw

7 any child that came in with asthma. That is a common

8 sight today.

9 And as has been said here that it's a

10 fallacy, it's not truth that people are dying from 19:47:35

11 these particulates. These particulates are dangerous.

12 All of these particulates have over 80 hazardous

13 chemicals, and my people are breathing in day in and

14 day out.

15 Our respiratory rates have increased 19:47:53

16 tremendously. Heart attack, cardiac disease are on the

17 increase. So these are the things we need to see.

18 Just because we don't have a baseline does not mean

19 that we bury our heads in the sand, that it doesn't

20 happen. 19:48:09

21 It is really sad to see kids fighting for

22 their breath, turning blue. So these are the things

23 that we see from impact the areas. And as it has been

24 said that the Clean Air Task Force does some studies,

25 there are 313 thousand people, and over three hundred 19:48:36
56

1 thousand people have respiratory problems. And Clean

2 Air Act has been established in -- has been established

3 in the 70's. The EPA also has been established back in

4 the 60's. And we as a Navajo Nation has yet to reap

5 the benefits from these revelations that should be 19:49:01

6 there to protect the health of the people.

7 And just because we're in a sacrifice area

8 doesn't mean that we're not humans. We are humans just

9 as anybody else is.

10 And I heard speeches today talking about 19:49:19

11 how money -- money is good, but health is more

12 important. And who's speaking for the animals and the

13 plants. Who's speaking for the plants on the land.

14 These chemicals burn the plants. These chemicals hurt

15 the animals. Our fish are full of mercury. 19:49:40

16 So these are things we need to see. And I

17 think the EPA has a policy they put in place which says

18 that it should encourage productive and enjoyable

19 harmony between man and his environment to promote

20 efforts which prevent or eliminate damages to the 19:50:02

21 environmental and biosphere and stimulate the health

22 and welfare of man to enrich the understanding of the

23 ecological system and resources important to the our

24 existence.

25 To this day, Navajo Nation has not reaped 19:50:19
57

1 this benefit. We have not enjoyed this. Thank you.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Anna Frazier.

3 MS. FRAZIER: Thank you for allowing us to

4 speak this evening. I am from Dilkon, Arizona, which

5 is like about 25 miles south of Winslow, Arizona, just 19:50:50

6 on the other side of the boundary line on the Navajo

7 reservation. I'm speaking on behalf of -- as a

8 supporter of the Federal Implementation Plan to enforce

9 BART for Cholla power plant as mandated by U.S. EPA. I

10 also represent a whole lot of Navajo tribal members who 19:51:30

11 are standing with us to clean our air.

12 And we -- like Adella said, there are five

13 coal-fired power plants surrounding the Navajo Nation.

14 And so the Navajo Nation is situated within the Class I

15 area where from all five power plants we are impacted 19:52:06

16 by pollution from all sides.

17 And some might say that the wind might be

18 blowing that way, but lately it has been blowing from

19 the south into the Dilkon area, because we've been

20 getting a lot of rain there, so that's where it's all 19:52:29

21 coming from. So you can't really judge which way the

22 winds is blowing every day. So we get the brunt of it

23 over there from all sides.

24 So from all this pollution our people are

25 really having health problems with heart diseases, 19:52:49
58

1 asthma, respiratory problems, and cancer. And so we

2 just lost a young man just recently last week from

3 cancer.

4 So there's all kinds of pollution. Might

5 not even be from the power plants. There's also the 19:53:13

6 rain in our area.

7 So these are some things that's going on

8 in the Navajo Nation. I heard some speeches tonight

9 about economic development, economic concerns regarding

10 jobs. I think what we need is forward thinkers, 19:53:35

11 politicians that can create a different kind of jobs,

12 renewable energy, alternative energy.

13 So where are we going to be 30 years from

14 now? Are we still going to be wanting power plants?

15 But we need to change our ways. And I think we're just 19:54:07

16 like Adella said, we just have our heads buried in the

17 sand. We've got to ignore, and ignore the change

18 that's happening to our climate.

19 I encourage U.S. EPA to continue to work

20 with us to change the way where the energy comes from, 19:54:37

21 because it's not -- we need the help and I appreciate

22 you being here tonight. Thank you.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Kevin Fish.

24 MR. FISH: Kevin Fish, Joseph City. I

25 believe that the EPA has been influenced too much by 19:55:05
59

1 the Sierra Club in their decision making. I had a

2 chance to visit the Grand Canyon lately. I listened to

3 what they considered is the most -- the biggest cause

4 of regional haze, and they said it is because of the

5 Los Angeles smog and the prevailing winds. That's what 19:55:36

6 the national park has to say.

7 I would ask you to quit listening to those

8 types of people and listen to the people here to keep

9 the jobs and the economics here in northern Arizona.

10 If you want to go after somebody, the city of San 19:56:01

11 Francisco, the headquarters of the regional EPA needs

12 to go after the city of Los Angeles, not the people of

13 Arizona.

14 In closing, I would like to say that those

15 who believe that the EPA is right and that the Sierra 19:56:17

16 Club is right, when they leave tonight, do not drive

17 your cars, walk, because that's what it is. And when

18 you get home, don't turn your lights on. Thank you.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Kent Gibson.

20 MR. GIBSON: Kent Gibson. K-e-n-t, 19:56:49

21 G-i-b-s-o-n. The mid-1990's, I was in attendance at a

22 conference where then EPA Administrator Sara Dunham

23 said that she would like to see all smoke stack

24 industry in this country gone. When asked how she

25 would support our economy, she told us it would be by 19:57:07
60

1 selling our environmental technology.

2 The recent EPA stated that a rule proposed

3 earlier this month would require additional pollution

4 controls on three plants in eastern Arizona just to

5 comply with the provisions of the Clean Air Act where 19:57:25

6 Congress set a long-term goal of restoring natural

7 visibility conditions in numerous national parks and

8 wilderness areas throughout the United States. My

9 question is: What is the natural visibility. Some

10 days it's windy. Some days it's dusty. Some days we 19:57:45

11 have smoke. Some days it rains and clears everything

12 up. Which day do we pick to have natural visibility?

13 One of the EPA strategies for achieving

14 this goal of natural visibility is the use of retrofit

15 technology in older power plants which were perceived 19:58:04

16 to contribute to visibility requirements in these Class

17 I areas.

18 On July 23rd, EPA proposed a Federal

19 Implementation Plan that would require selective

20 catalytic reduction in both units at Coronado 19:58:19

21 Generating Station. The proposed emission rate for

22 Unit 1 is the most stringent NOx rate ever proposed by

23 the EPA for a coal plant retrofit project, even though

24 EPA has recently concluded in other states that

25 SCR is not an appropriate BART control, because NOx 19:58:41
61

1 emissions below .06 are not achievable on a continuous

2 basis through the retrofit of SCR on a coal-fired unit.

3 This is essentially asking for unachievable numbers

4 using the current technology.

5 I question why EPA would request that we 19:59:01

6 install a technology that has the impossibility of

7 achieving their mandated results. Could it be that

8 they were receiving pressure from nongovernmental

9 groups to rush into this proposal? The posting of the

10 Albuquerque Journal dated August 12, 2012, a Diane 19:59:20

11 Schmidt article entitled EPA Moves on "Stricter

12 Controls for Coal-burning Power Plants in the

13 Southwest." Ms. Schmidt reported this EPA proposal

14 comes in direct response to a lawsuit filed by

15 Earthjustice and Wyoming attorney Reid Zars on behalf 19:59:40

16 of an impressive array of conservation and community

17 health groups after foot-dragging by Arizona and after

18 the EPA missed legal deadlines for limiting

19 haze-causing pollution from power plants and factories

20 in Arizona. 19:59:57

21 I do not believe that there were has been

22 any foot-dragging on the part of the ADEQ or the

23 companies in question. I do believe that the ideal

24 ideology voiced by then EPA Administrator Sara Dunham,

25 which she looked forward to the no smoke stack industry 20:00:16
62

1 has not diminished, and industry continues to meet the

2 unrealistic expectations of this agency.

3 I respectfully ask that you listen to the

4 people who live and work in this region and not to the

5 so-called impressive array of conservation 20:00:35

6 environmental groups seeking to destroy the economic

7 engines of these communities.

8 I ask you to withdraw the EPA proposed

9 Federal Implementation Plan regarding this state and

10 work with the State of Arizona to enact the State 20:00:56

11 Implementation Plan that addresses these issues. Thank

12 you.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: The public hearing

14 was scheduled to end at 8:00, but I have 25 additional

15 speakers. So we are going to expand the public hearing 20:01:16

16 for at least an additional hour, and, hopefully, if

17 everybody can cooperate and keep their comments brief,

18 and if everybody else can help by allowing the speakers

19 to move as quickly as possible, we should be able to

20 finish on time. 20:01:34

21 Our next five speakers will be Caleb

22 Johnson. I apologize, I couldn't read it. Major Kelly

23 Willis, Terry Hill, Eli Blake, and Trevor Baggiore.

24 Caleb, I apologize I don't know how to

25 pronounce your last name. 20:02:36
63

1 MR. JOHNSON: My name is Caleb Johnson.

2 I'm a retired army chaplain. I spent years in the

3 military, member of the Hopi tribe. I think that

4 reducing pollution is a good idea. But you have to

5 consider the costs. There's costs to everything. 20:03:13

6 And the military, before we plan an

7 operation, we have to decide the cost of how many

8 people will be killed, how many people will be wounded,

9 so we have enough (inaudible) to do the operation.

10 So I think you need to consider the costs. 20:03:39

11 There's a cost about employment. If you implement all

12 your regulations on these power plants, you need to do

13 a study about the costs of how many jobs will be

14 eliminated. You need to know that. I don't think I've

15 ever seen a study that says how many jobs are going to 20:04:08

16 be lost when your regulations are implemented to the

17 full extent. So that's something that you need to

18 consider.

19 The other cost is finance. The Hopi tribe

20 is more concerned about the power plant at Page, 20:04:26

21 because we supply coal to that plant. So we ask you

22 consider the financial aspect of the cost of what there

23 will be if these regulations are implemented

24 completely. We receive about 11 million dollars a year

25 from the operations of the power plant. And if your 20:04:51
64

1 implementation of your regulations is going to reduce

2 that amount to the tribe, we would have to stand

3 against the implementation of those regulations. So

4 these are costs that you need to consider.

5 Like I said, every operation has costs. 20:05:17

6 So I'm just mentioning the two, because I only have

7 three minutes to speak, and that's not a very long

8 time. But I think what I'm saying, this is something

9 that I would like to raise for you to analyze and get

10 data on how many jobs will be lost, what the financial 20:05:38

11 effect it would have to the Hopi tribe. Those things

12 we need to know before we will approve such

13 implementation of these regulations. Thank you.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Kelly Willis.

15 MR. WILLIS: Thank you. Kelly Willis. I 20:06:09

16 have sat here tonight and listened intently to the

17 things that were going on, have felt my heart go out to

18 those who have possible environmental impacts and also

19 to those who may be impacted by the loss of work and

20 jobs. 20:06:30

21 I do feel very strongly that if we use the

22 same reasoning that we are here tonight to talk about,

23 the removal of our power plant, that the EPA needs to

24 go right down to the Valley of the Sun and move

25 everyone out because of the impact of valley fever. To 20:06:53
65

1 me, it's exactly basically the same thing.

2 All over our world we're impacted by

3 things that impact our lives.

4 I was happily born and raised here. I'm

5 almost 60 years old. I have aunts and uncles who live 20:07:12

6 here and have lived here all their life and still feel

7 like we live in the greatest and the most beautiful

8 blue skies in the world.

9 If we have a government that truly cares

10 about all of its people, then we should have a 20:07:35

11 government that not only cares about the impact of

12 those environmentally, but also the impact of those who

13 will be -- their lives will be uprooted and destroyed.

14 The regional haze issue is based on the

15 aesthetic distaste of a few people who do not want the 20:07:59

16 environmental experience degraded. That is

17 understandable. But the haze they are so unhappy about

18 presents no physiological danger to humans, wildlife or

19 terrain if that is true. Whereas the harsh ruling that

20 they are proposing will directly affect the economic 20:08:22

21 stability of a quarter of a million people in this

22 area, and specifically will add to the devastation

23 already being experienced here in the White Mountains.

24 The national disaster is devastating to

25 the area impacted by that disaster. But a disaster of 20:08:42
66

1 this magnitude caused by government in trying to

2 over-regulate our livelihood is simply unacceptable.

3 I believe -- and I'm speaking for a little

4 small town 30 miles south of here. We've already been

5 impacted to a great extent by the loss of three hundred 20:09:01

6 jobs. I am pleading not only for our livelihood but

7 for the very existence of our town and for the

8 surrounding areas.

9 I do believe with all of my heart that we

10 can, without destroying community, without destroying 20:09:22

11 and uprooting people's lives, that these things can be

12 taken care of by a government who truly cares about all

13 of its people and not by a government who believes they

14 can do anything they want without the voice of the

15 people. And I think that's where we're at. I really, 20:09:46

16 really do. Thank you.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Terry Hill.

18 MR. HILL: My name is Terry Hill,

19 T-e-r-r-y. H-i-l-l. I've reviewed several, many

20 photographs of the Grand Canyon that were taken prior 20:10:14

21 to 1900 and in the early part of the 20th century, well

22 before power plants. Many of these photographs show

23 haze. And I'm going to present to you a photograph

24 that's from the U.S.C. digital library that shows a

25 significant amount of haze that was taken -- a 20:10:47
67

1 photograph was taken somewhere circa 1900, 1912.

2 Please review it. And go to the U.S.C. digital library

3 and you will see many more photographs from that same

4 era prior to 1900 and shortly thereafter.

5 It would appear to many of us that special 20:20:38

6 interest groups such as the Center for Biodiversity and

7 the Sierra Club have colluded with the present

8 administration in Washington to close down all

9 coal-fired power plants and are using the EPA to do so.

10 This is nothing more than an attack by the 20:21:05

11 administration, another attack by this administration

12 on the State of Arizona. This is a state issue. The

13 EPA has no business coming in and changing the things

14 we do when it calls for a 2064 haze level to be what it

15 was. And if we go back a hundred plus years, you'll 20:21:07

16 see there's plenty of haze there already.

17 The whole haze thing, the whole -- what do

18 you call it -- the R.H.R. is nothing but a scam. Thank

19 you.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Eli Blake. 20:21:08

21 MS. BLAKE: Hello my name is Eli Blake,

22 E-l-i, B-l-a-k-e. I should mention I'm the chairman of

23 the Navajo County Democratic party.

24 I'm not here to attack the administration,

25 but I do want to make a point that these communities -- 20:21:09
68

1 and I live in Joseph City -- are unified in

2 understanding that we need to find a solution that will

3 maintain the jobs and keep the plants running.

4 I would also point out that the -- to some

5 extent the idea of green energy accomplishes itself. I 20:21:11

6 think it's great to see all the wind farms going up and

7 so forth, but at the same time, we talk about getting

8 rid of gasoline burning cars. We talk about some day

9 you'll have your battery popped out of an electricity

10 vehicle, drive away, and they put yours up to a 20:21:13

11 charger. Can you imagine how much electricity that's

12 going to take? In other words, we need to have both.

13 I would also point out that the impact on

14 the communities would be completely devastating. I'm

15 one of the very few people in Joseph City that does not 20:21:14

16 work on at the power plant and has a job somehow

17 dependent on the power plant. On the other hand my

18 company buys fly ash, takes it back to Jo City, and

19 makes concrete out of it. Not only is that an example

20 of what is now a pollutant is being put to a good use, 20:21:16

21 but it's also an example of how far reaching we have an

22 impact on the economy with these plants.

23 Finally, I'd like to ask that you look at

24 maybe postponing making this decision until after the

25 first of January. And I'll tell you why. You know, I 20:21:18
69

1 appreciate that Congressman Gosar and his chief of

2 staff -- he's not here. Our previous congress person

3 was here tonight. But he's not here. We need somebody

4 that will be our advocate in Washington, and we won't

5 have one until the first of the year. He's, of course, 20:21:19

6 moved to another district.

7 The other thing we pointed out, I have

8 asthma. I carry this thing around with me. Before I

9 moved to Joseph City, I lived in Texas, Montana, New

10 Mexico, other parts of Arizona, a lot of rural areas. 20:21:21

11 I now live two miles from the Cholla plant, and I

12 probably have to use this less often now than I ever

13 did before. Thank you.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Trevor Baggiore.

15 MR. BAGGIORE: Good evening. That's 20:21:22

16 Trevor Baggiore, B-a-g-g-i-o-r-e, The Deputy Director

17 for the Department of Air Quality. Arizona has been a

18 part and partner in establishing regional haze

19 objectives.

20 In 2003 and 2004, Arizona submitted plans 20:21:24

21 calling for voluntary reductions to improve its air

22 quality. Those plans have been successful.

23 Since 1995, emissions of sulfur dioxide

24 and nitrogen oxides from all utilities are down 62

25 percent and 39 percent respectively. 20:21:26
70

1 I want to make it clear that tonight we're

2 discussing plans to reduce regional haze, which is our

3 ability to see things, albeit beautiful things, but see

4 those things better.

5 Protection of public health is protected 20:21:27

6 by the Clean Air Act, not the regional haze one.

7 Regional haze standards allow for the consideration of

8 cost in determining what is reasonable in terms of

9 control. What EPA is proposing is not only

10 unreasonable, but unnecessary. 20:21:28

11 As of 2009, the EPA had not -- still not

12 acted on Arizona's 2003 and 2004 Regional Haze

13 Proposals. Instead of following procedures, EPA found

14 that Arizona failed to submit their Regional Haze Plan

15 on the proposed haze regulations. Arizona got 20:21:28

16 shoe-horned into this finding, with EPA identifying

17 missing elements in Arizona plans.

18 Rather than challenging EPA's action,

19 Arizona worked with EPA and its other partners until

20 2010, when it became clear that EPA's regional offices 20:21:28

21 could not agree on a solution.

22 For six months from 2011 and early 2012,

23 Arizona attempted to intervene as a codefendant in the

24 lawsuit filed against EPA. The court granted Arizona

25 intervener status. Regardless, EPA and the plaintiffs 20:21:28
71

1 ignored Arizona and reached their own agreement. Even

2 the Court ruled on issues without giving Arizona the

3 opportunity to defend itself, only to retract the

4 decision when Arizona noted the lack of due process.

5 The EPA's inaction on this case makes no 20:21:28

6 sense. By failing to act, EPA's now substituting its

7 own plan in place of Arizona's. As Governor Brewer

8 pointed out: "EPA's current action usurps Arizona's

9 authority under the Clean Air Act and interferes with

10 the long-standing partnership between EPA and the State 20:21:28

11 to address protection of visual air quality in

12 Arizona's national parks and wilderness areas."

13 How did EPA make a finding that Arizona

14 SIP's are incomplete, and then not cure the

15 deficiencies with anything less than a remedy? 20:21:28

16 It's important that we consider the

17 process as a whole, not its individual parts. How can

18 EPA agree to, when the Court sanctioned a deadline for

19 action on Arizona's 2011 plan that is longer than that

20 allowed under the Clean Air Act without Arizona being a 20:21:28

21 party to these negotiations? It cannot.

22 To the extent that any federal plan is

23 required, that may address only those incompleteness

24 issues that EPA identified in the 2009 finding of the

25 law under the Clean Air Act. Any action on Arizona's 20:21:28
72

1 2011 emissions plan can only be a proposed approval,

2 partial approval and disapproval, or disapproval that

3 provides Arizona an opportunity to correct any

4 perceived deficiencies or administratively challenge

5 EPA's decision prior to the implementation of the 20:21:28

6 Federal FIP.

7 In conclusion, I leave you with our

8 governor's words: "It's incumbent on EPA to allow

9 Arizona to discuss outstanding issues related to the

10 Regional Haze Plan and not undermine the cooperative 20:21:28

11 approach that previously typified the process to

12 address regional haze in Arizona and other states in

13 the West."

14 Arizona asks that EPA withdraw its

15 proposed Federal Implementation Plan and open a 20:21:28

16 dialogue up with the State to effectively move forward

17 with the approval of the State's plan. Thank you.

18 THE COURT: The next five speakers are

19 Glen Lee, Nolan Larson, Lawrence Pena, Michael Fish,

20 and Michael Whiting. 20:21:28

21 THE COURT: It's Glen Lee here? Nolan

22 Larson? Lawrence Pena?

23 MR. LARSON: My name is Nolan Larson. I

24 own a garbage business here in Snowflake, Arizona. We

25 service Navajo, Apache, Coconino counties. I've lived 20:21:28
73

1 in northern Arizona all my life. Not really a public

2 speaker. Never been a lot of things that good men and

3 women before me have talked about. They did a better

4 job than me, and I'll be quick, because we've been here

5 a long time. 20:21:28

6 A couple notes that I'd like to maybe make

7 a point of is no matter how much regulation we have,

8 every one of us is going to get sick and die. It's a

9 part of life. Sometimes we get sick early in life. If

10 we put all the regulations in the world, bad things are 20:21:28

11 still going to happen.

12 The other point that I've listened here

13 tonight, we've got a state regulatory agency that has

14 done a fine job, will continue to do a fine job.

15 As explained earlier, it seems that they 20:21:28

16 have actually done a bad job in EPA themselves. I

17 would ask the EPA to reconsider the decisions that

18 they've made and do what's best for Arizona and

19 themselves here. Thank you.

20 THE COURT: Lawrence Pena? Michael 20:21:28

21 Whiting?

22 MR. WHITING: Good evening. My name is

23 Michael Whiting, w-h-i-t-i-n-g. I live over in St.

24 Johns, Arizona; born and raised there, live there right

25 now. I think it's sad that the folks that are going to 20:21:28
74

1 read these comments, they're going to see them in black

2 and white on a piece of paper. They're not going to

3 see the people who have got up here and the expressions

4 they had and the thoughts they truly share.

5 I want to paint a quick picture to the 20:21:28

6 folks up in the EPA that are going to be reading this,

7 because it seems that they've got a hazy understanding,

8 if you will, of the problem you have here. And that is

9 the fact that it's very sad that they make a living off

10 our taxes; that their salaries are paid from our taxes; 20:21:28

11 yet they won't even show up to a meeting to see the

12 hundreds if not the thousands of people they're going

13 to affect, and they can't sit here. And I appreciate

14 that you're both here and they sent you. I wish the

15 people that would make the decisions would be here. 20:21:28

16 Just real quick, I think we can look at

17 this from a common sense standpoint. We talk about all

18 kinds of science. But just common sense, in northern

19 Arizona that's this: The EPA is required to clean up

20 the hazing, if you will, the haze in the air by 2064. 20:21:28

21 That's a long time. Most of us will not be alive. Yet

22 we're now proposing regulations in 2012 that will not

23 clean up the hazing to any perceptible difference. The

24 human eye will not be able to see that. The argument

25 with the haze that's surrounded the Grand Canyon and 20:21:28
75

1 national parks, et cetera, the rules being proposed and

2 the technology that's being implemented at millions, if

3 not billions of dollars, will not clean up that

4 problem, will not solve that problem.

5 That seems like insanity to me that we're 20:21:28

6 going to impose something that will not solve the

7 problem. We're going to put hundreds if not thousands

8 of people out of jobs. With that, the rule becomes

9 arbitrary and capricious. To the understanding the

10 Court's going to look at, administrative body is going 20:21:28

11 to look at, that's arbitrary, capricious to an act or

12 regulation on a rule on a city that will not accomplice

13 the goals that are required by law.

14 So you folks reading these comments as you

15 sit in your office in San Francisco, you enjoy the 20:21:28

16 electricity we provide. I want you to think about the

17 common sense aspect of this. Ask yourself, why did New

18 Mexico get a stay on these same regulations? New

19 Mexico voted for the current president, Obama; Arizona

20 did not. 20:21:28

21 Arizona's governor, there's a picture of

22 her putting her finger in the president's face. Maybe

23 that sits on the desk.

24 Don't be that puppet of the EPA. I'm

25 talking about the people reading these, making the 20:21:28
76

1 decisions. Don't be a puppet of the administration.

2 When the sister state gets a stay and we don't, give us

3 a stay and work through the process that we're supposed

4 to work through as government agencies, and do the

5 right thing. Thank you. 20:21:28

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Michael Fish.

7 MR. FISH: Good evening I'm Michael Fish.

8 I live the Show Low, Arizona. I, like probably

9 everyone here, wishes there wasn't so much haze, but I

10 believe to approach the power plants is wrong. I found 20:21:28

11 a couple of examples. I found a document which was

12 talking the air quality of the Grand Canyon. It says

13 most of this pollution, haze comes from southern

14 California, southern Arizona, and northern New Mexico.

15 I found a report entitled Regional Haze Case Studies 20:21:28

16 from the Southwestern US Regarding Source

17 Contributions. This study was conducted by Washington

18 University from St. Louis, Missouri. And their study

19 centered on the air quality of Arizona. One of the

20 conclusions released, quote, "Perhaps the most 20:21:28

21 important and well-documented conclusion of this study

22 is the existence of an identifiable impact of Southern

23 California smog on the air quality of the southwestern

24 US."

25 Another conclusion of this states quote, 20:21:28
77

1 "There is a suggestion in the evidence that during the

2 two documented summer incursions, southern California

3 was responsible not only for the primary pollutants

4 reaching the Page area, but also as to the location of

5 the formation of the bulk of the secondary pollutants," 20:21:28

6 end quote.

7 My point is in the whole picture of these

8 -- these retrofitted coal-burning plants are small

9 sources that are being asked to go to huge costly

10 measures that will not make sense. It seems that some 20:21:28

11 people will hate coal no matter how clean coal plants

12 have become. Common sense and scientific data do not

13 back up their extreme views.

14 Our policy makers represent all of us and

15 must not give in to these special interests that do not 20:21:28

16 have science on their side. Thank you.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Shawn Nau.

18 MR. NAU: Good evening. My name is Shawn

19 Nau. S-h-a-w-n. N-a-u. I'm manager for the Town of

20 Eagar which is located an hour and a half southeast of 20:21:28

21 Holbrook in White Mountains and southern Apache County.

22 One week ago this evening our council

23 considered and passed a resolution requesting three

24 things of the EPA this evening. The three things

25 specifically that they requested and perhaps the most 20:21:28
78

1 important of the three is that the EPA consider having

2 another public hearing in Apache County and

3 particularly St. Johns which would be closer to those

4 communities that would be directly affected by the

5 regulations as applied to the Coronado station. 20:21:28

6 Eagar is a bedroom community for much of

7 what's called Round Valley, and many of our residents

8 live there and work for the proposed power plants.

9 The second request would be that the EPA

10 extend the comment period for an additional 90 days to 20:21:28

11 give the Apache County residents an opportunity to

12 understand what the regulations are and how they would

13 impact their community.

14 And, third, the council would ask that the

15 EPA would withdraw its current FIP and look at the 20:21:28

16 State of Arizona as it has done in the past rather than

17 implement something without its consideration. And

18 I'll leave a copy of this motion for you as well.

19 Thank you.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: The next five 20:21:28

21 speakers, Joe T. Pearce, Paul Ramsey, and Dale Patton.

22 Perry Duthie and Steven Slaton.

23 Joe T. Pearce you may come up.

24 MR. PEARCE: I'm Joe T. Pearce,

25 p-e-a-r-c-e. I was born and raised in Linden, Arizona 20:21:28
79

1 or Show Low. I live on a homestead that my father

2 homesteaded. I've always worked for myself. I've been

3 self-employed all my life. I had the original cement

4 plant and poured concrete for the Cholla power plant.

5 That little pony stack that's the short one out there 20:21:28

6 is the one that we poured. We thought that was a

7 tremendous feat when we poured 422 yards at the base of

8 it in one day.

9 I've always worked for myself, always been

10 in this area. I've seen the regulations change and go 20:21:28

11 up and down and back and forth. When I started out we

12 would make three reports quarterly, and when I quit, I

13 was making 36 reports quarterly. Thank goodness I was

14 ready to retire and kind of slow down.

15 As far as the environmentalists' concerns, 20:21:28

16 I have seen them grow from a minimum that we had which

17 is probably too slack to where it's getting to where

18 it's, well, I quit working and being an employer

19 because of the number of regulations. Thank goodness

20 the ones I sold out to are still trying to make a go of 20:21:28

21 it, and I think they're doing quite well.

22 I remember back in the 70's when I was on

23 the school board and the Forest Service furnished 25

24 percent of the budget for the school expenses. And

25 that was in the Show Low school district. Now, they 20:21:28
80

1 don't furnish any. The environmentalists have removed

2 over 55 thousand head of livestock.

3 The lumber industry -- this is the report

4 that was given at the Cattle Owner's Association in

5 Springerville. The lumber industry is reduced from 20:21:28

6 just under three hundred million board feet to less

7 than 30 million board feet. That's a great reduction

8 on the economy around in this area.

9 I also remember when the lottery came into

10 existence in this area. As I came out from voting, 20:21:28

11 because on the lottery it said a percentage of the

12 lottery would go to environmentalists for improvement,

13 and I met Jim Bryant. And he was a logger over in Fort

14 Apache selling the lumber. And I said did you vote for

15 the environmentalists getting a percentage of the 20:21:28

16 lottery? He said I sure did. I said, did you know

17 that you just voted yourself out of a job.

18 Prophetically, that's happened.

19 I'm sure that's not where the environment

20 gets all of the money, but the place that we need to 20:21:28

21 start working on.

22 And I turn to the voters and say we need

23 to vote to make sure that there's less money given to

24 the environmentalists.

25 THE HEARING OFFICER: Paul Ramsey? 20:21:28
81

1 MR. RAMSEY: My name is Paul Ramsey. I'm

2 with the city of St. Johns. The City of St. Johns --

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Could you spell your

4 last name?

5 MR. RAMSEY: R-a-m-s-e-y. 20:21:28

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

7 MR. RAMSEY: City of St. Johns is located

8 near Coronado Generating Station which employs about

9 two hundred people permanently. Those two hundred jobs

10 impact our little community immensely. Not all live in 20:21:28

11 our community, but even the surrounding communities

12 that have been affected such as Springerville, Eagar,

13 Snowflake, Show Low, Taylor, and probably some of our

14 citizens are employed at the Cholla power plant. The

15 impact of decisions that are made by this agency could 20:21:28

16 reduce those employees considerably. The loss of ten

17 jobs in a small community has a ripple effect that

18 can't be returned sometimes ever, but it's always

19 substantial.

20 We in St. Johns would implore the EPA to 20:21:28

21 remove this FIP and go back to the state agency that

22 was designed to control regulation and understand the

23 issues that are in the great State of Arizona.

24 When we -- when we give those to the Fed,

25 it's too far reaching. As I stated before, I believe 20:21:28
82

1 the haze problem is between that agency and the State

2 of Arizona. They don't see from a daily standpoint

3 what these workers and what the impact of reducing

4 these jobs or causing the increase in costs to all of

5 the recipients of what they produced will impact the 20:21:28

6 nation and most importantly this state.

7 We ask that that regulation -- regulatory

8 authority return to the ADEQ. Obviously, it's been

9 nearly ten years to provide a document that not only

10 addresses all the issues you're talking about, but 20:21:28

11 takes into consideration the economic impacts of this

12 state and the individuals who would be impacted by the

13 loss of those jobs and the loss of the power to the

14 grid.

15 Always an authority needs to be close to 20:21:28

16 the people and to the source. And that's why these

17 state agencies need the power to control and implement

18 what is needed and not over-implement.

19 It has been told time and time again that

20 the impact of this legislation is not a health issue, 20:21:28

21 nor is it anything that can even be seen by the visible

22 eye when it is fully implemented, but yet we're going

23 to spends millions and millions of dollars. Not only

24 will our small community be affected but all of these

25 surrounding, these other power plants. And we would 20:21:28
83

1 request that you remove the FIP and give that authority

2 back to the State. Thank you.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Dale Patton.

4 MR. PATTON: Good evening. My name is

5 Dale Patton. I'm the city attorney for Winslow. 20:21:28

6 Winslow is located about 40 miles west of here between

7 here and Flagstaff. For over 28, 30 years that I've

8 driven back and forth from Winslow to Holbrook, I drive

9 by the Cholla power plant every day twice: Early

10 morning with the sun in my eyes, and late at night with 20:21:28

11 the sun in my eyes. Every day I look at Cholla power

12 plant. I've never noticed any problem. I don't think

13 the people in Jo City, friends of mine and neighbors,

14 have noticed any problem. They continue to live there.

15 They haven't moved. 20:21:28

16 I was born in Snowflake and have lived

17 most of my life, all of my life in Arizona. And we in

18 Arizona are used to a little bit of dirt in the air.

19 City of Winslow is used to dirt in the air all of the

20 time. We're a little concerned, however, with people 20:21:28

21 from Washington telling us how we want to live and what

22 kind of air we should be breathing.

23 There was some time ago when I took a trip

24 out to Washington DC and met with the members of BIA.

25 Those of you who have worked with the BIA know what a 20:21:28
84

1 unique experience that is. As I walked down the hall,

2 as far as I could see the hall would go as far as I

3 could see. I walked down to the end of that hall,

4 there were halls going as far as I could see. That was

5 BIA. EPA is similar. 20:21:28

6 As I said in that meeting, I went to that

7 meeting to meet with BIA, with representatives of the

8 Hopi tribe. The reason for that is the Hopi Tribe owns

9 a rather large structure in Winslow called the BEV

10 plant. At that time, Hopi tribe had put a major amount 20:21:28

11 of money in development, and they had procured someone,

12 and they happened to be from Korea. The Hopi people

13 did their own due diligence, had hired consultants and

14 did everything they could to entice these people to

15 come to Winslow, Arizona and lease that building from 20:21:28

16 them, so they would have the revenues from that

17 building.

18 Guess what? We had to go back on behalf

19 of the Hopi tribe and the area in Winslow and Holbrook

20 and meet with the BIA attorneys. We spent three hours 20:21:28

21 explaining to them why what they thought was best for

22 us wasn't best for us.

23 My concern is that we're doing the same

24 thing here tonight. We already agreed that ADEQ,

25 Arizona Department of Environment Quality, a legitimate 20:21:28
85

1 agency, a good faith agency, certainly competent agency

2 and willing to represent the needs of this state, it's

3 our suggestion on behalf of the City of Winslow that

4 EPA look at the ADEQ, sit down and meet with them in

5 good faith, not rattle sabers, but meet with them in 20:21:28

6 good faith and try to come up with a plan that will be

7 beneficial and cost effective. Thank you.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Eric Duthie.

9 MR. DUTHIE: Thank you. My name is Eric

10 Duthie. I am a town manager of Taylor, Arizona. 20:21:28

11 That's d-u-t-h-i-e or Ruthie with a D., like we used to

12 tell our lawyers. I'm the Taylor town manager as well

13 as the coordinator of the Real Arizona Corridor, an

14 alliance of municipal and county governments,

15 businesses, financial institutions, entrepreneurs, and 20:21:28

16 supporters of jobs and job growth in Navajo and Apache

17 County. I have this box before me to submit to you

18 over seven hundred letters individually signed by

19 residents, business owners, citizens, and other

20 interested parties throughout our region requesting the 20:21:28

21 EPA extend the public comment period to a much later

22 date, as well as provide more public hearings in areas

23 directly and negatively impacted by this rule,

24 specifically, here in Navajo, Apache, and Cochise

25 Counties in Arizona. More letters are being collected, 20:21:28
86

1 and there's a woman standing right back there who will

2 be glad to take your letters and turn them in, as well.

3 The letters, again, are requesting your

4 delay. Section 169 (A) and (B) of the Clean Air Act

5 states in part that EPA shall encourage cooperative 20:21:28

6 activities by States and local governments. And the

7 air pollution control and prevention is the primary

8 responsibility of the state and local governments.

9 Haze is measured in deciviews. In some

10 scientific circles, a deciview is similar to a decibel 20:21:28

11 for hearing impaired. Most people can't perceive the

12 deference in a single decibel increase or decrease.

13 The same can be said of a single deciview. As I

14 understand, this proposed rule impacts less than one

15 deciview, which is a curiosity considering the time, 20:21:28

16 effort, and expense needed to create this mostly

17 imperceptible change.

18 As chairman of the Northern Arizona

19 Council of Government Tourism Committee for five years,

20 I was required to visit and view several Class I areas 20:21:28

21 in the NACOG region, including the Grand Canyon,

22 Petrified Forest, Mount Baldy, and the Mazatzal,

23 Sycamore Canyon, and Pine Wilderness areas.

24 In all these years of asking visitors how

25 they came to visit, they always cited their desire to 20:21:28
87

1 visit at least once in their lifetime, and they were

2 finally able to afford the visit. Not once, did they

3 say they needed to be selective of their travel dates

4 due to concerns over haze. I have, however, heard a

5 lifetime of complaints about haze in metropolitan areas 20:21:28

6 such as Phoenix, Los Angeles and, yes, Washington, DC.

7 These complaints continue today with little action to

8 resolve that visibility issue.

9 My point is simple: Tourists visit when

10 they can afford to visit regardless of the haze. 20:21:28

11 Even though the EPA seems to suggest that

12 the skies of this region are haze problematic, it is

13 important to know that two of the world's finest

14 observatories, Lowell and the US Naval Observatory

15 continued expansion and investment because of the 20:21:28

16 clarity of our skies.

17 Several smaller astronomy groups are also

18 hosted in this region and are actively promoting this

19 area because of the clarity of our skies and the

20 exemplary visibility it provides. 20:21:28

21 This region has suffered significantly

22 during the extended economic downturn, and employment

23 at any level is precious. Earlier this month, a major

24 regional employer surprised us with a shocking

25 announcement that they will close their 100 percent 20:21:28
88

1 recycled material paper mill. Let me repeat that to

2 the EPA, they closed a one hundred percent recycled

3 material paper mill.

4 Now couple that with the EPA's desire to

5 implement a revision to a long-established plan, one 20:21:28

6 that Arizona has until the year 2064, 52 years from

7 today, in which to become compliant.

8 What is the motivation for such a rapid

9 turn of events at the EPA? Is there an undisclosed

10 epidemic health risk upon us? Is there an undisclosed 20:21:28

11 contamination risk upon us? Is this simply a president

12 wagging his finger in the face of a governor? Is this

13 politically driven?

14 Regardless of the reason, the timing is

15 catastrophic for the economic and employment base for 20:21:28

16 this region and throughout the State.

17 We implore you to delay implementation of

18 a rule revision until all affected parties can have

19 sufficient time to review and assess the impacts of

20 this rule beyond the sole viewpoint of the EPA. Thank 20:21:28

21 you.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Steven Slaton.

23 MR. SLATON: Good evening. My name is

24 Steven Slaton. I am a certified residential appraiser

25 in the State of Arizona. If the closure of these 20:21:28
89

1 plants occur, the devastating impact on this whole

2 region is going to be tremendous. Right now we are in

3 a depression. This is no recession. We are in a

4 depression. The property values in Joseph City are

5 running in older homes from 18 thousand to 30 thousand. 20:21:28

6 There's going to be a loss of property taxes, revenue,

7 self worth to all those individuals. Holbrook areas,

8 these homes up here for these folks. I report what is

9 going on in the market. I do not make the market up.

10 These banks are fighting about these foreclosures. 20:21:28

11 They are reneging on a lot of their loans. A lot of

12 people aren't being able to get financed. UAA is

13 bailing out. They got rid of Joseph City. Put all

14 cash sales. Same is going on in Winslow. Winslow is

15 going down to 40 thousand, nice high home is maybe 75 20:21:28

16 thousand. That's almost an 60 percent loss.

17 These plants closed, the impact will be

18 tremendous, not to the individuals, but to the cities.

19 You're talking about lost property taxes, lost revenues

20 to go to these schools, and it just spirals. It goes 20:21:28

21 on and on and on, and there's no end in sight.

22 The best thing I suggest is keep it going

23 and kill the resolution. Some these suggestions are

24 not very good. I was over at wind city. They got miles

25 of windmills out there. Not one of them is turning. 20:21:28
90

1 I suggest all this haze talk, worry about

2 haze, talk about haze. My wife and I were sitting in

3 our living room, the wind blows right through there.

4 It's a natural occurrence in Flagstaff, 12 thousand

5 feet. It blows across the reservation. This is not 20:21:28

6 rocket science, folks. This is taken out of

7 proportion. I'm sure this is all part of the

8 administration trying to question everybody on it.

9 I'll tell you right now, you want to question us,

10 question us now. Close these plants down next week. 20:21:28

11 Let's get 10 million people with their pitch forks and

12 let's get it on. Those in Washington, you want to shut

13 us down, shut us down. We'll survive. We're

14 Americans. We've got guns. We've got ammo. We've got

15 food. We will do it, and we will take care of our own. 20:21:28

16 You want to shut these plants down, do it now. Thank

17 you.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Will the next five

19 speakers come up? Steve Seymore, is he here?

20 MR. SEYMOUR: Right here. 20:21:28

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Steve Seymore.

22 Mable Benally. Is Mable Benally here? We'll come

23 back. Fern Benally. Tom Dorn. Tom Dorn. And Mary

24 Kartchner. Is Mary Kartchner here? Okay.

25 Steve Seymore, you want to come up and 20:21:28
91

1 speak?

2 MR. SEYMORE: Steve Seymore,

3 s-e-y-m-o-r-e. It seems to me that whatever

4 limitations the standard is this industry makes, it

5 applies to the government folks. And EPA raised more 20:21:28

6 stringent rules and limitations until the benefits and

7 gains are so small and so expensive they are no longer

8 cost effective to implement by the providers.

9 Now they've gone so far as to set standard

10 of limitations that are not achievable. Let's call an 20:21:28

11 ace and ace and a spade a spade and say it appears that

12 EPA rules are destroying this portion of the energy

13 industry. Regional haze, NOx, and mercury removal

14 standards are the spotted owls related to energy. Why

15 can't the EPA and environment groups work with and in 20:21:28

16 conjunction with energy providers? Just as I believe

17 the EPA and environmental movement have the best

18 interests agenda, I'm certain that they believe that we

19 do as well.

20 I, for one, live in this area, love this 20:21:28

21 area and have raised my family here. I was raised here

22 as well. I don't want to do anything or have anything

23 around here that would harm this area or damage the

24 environment in which I live or in which my friends,

25 families, and neighbors live. However, the 20:21:28
92

1 environmental policies of late regarding our forests

2 have proven total failures and have caused more damage

3 and loss of habitat for the very spotted owl they're

4 supposed to protect than the entire paper industry ever

5 did. And I dare say the pollution from the fires in 20:21:28

6 the last ten years, both the Chedeski Rodeo and Wallow

7 fires, have caused more regional health concerns than

8 all the smoke stack industries combined in the last 50.

9 Why don't we meet somewhere in the middle,

10 and satisfy both sides concern over regional haze to 20:21:28

11 each other's satisfaction?

12 Why not have the EPA meet with the

13 targeted regional providers and set a date for a 30-day

14 period when all the energy providers shut their units

15 down. Have an independent party mutually agreed upon 20:21:28

16 monitor the regional haze and determine the amount of

17 industry pollution of haze that the regional generating

18 stations add to it, if any. We could also determine

19 the effects of the loss of generation of the power

20 grid. Let the wind and solar generation take up the 20:21:28

21 slack.

22 They could use that down time to perform

23 maintenance and the regional haze could be satisfied

24 once and for all to the satisfaction of all. Then you

25 could have a plan mutually agreed upon to address the 20:21:28
93

1 results.

2 As Phoenix, Los Angeles, and Las Vegas, to

3 name a few, are in the path of the regional prevailing

4 winds, and with the emission controls that have been

5 implemented over the last 20 years by regional energy 20:21:28

6 providers, I dare say, we would find that the regional

7 haze today is more a result of those metropolitan

8 areas' pollution than it is the regional generating

9 stations.

10 There is simply too much at risk, both 20:21:28

11 environmentally and economically, for this entire

12 region to not work together on this issue. Rather than

13 pointing fingers, fabricating studies and results and

14 knee-jerk responses, let's be sensible, adult, and

15 professional regarding this issue and work together for 20:21:28

16 a fair and mutually beneficial solution.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mable Benally.

18 We'll allow them more time, a little more time. You

19 can actually interpret.

20 MS. BENALLY: I am from Black Mesa, 20:21:28

21 Arizona. And my name is Helen Mable Benally. I live

22 near the mining area upon the Black Mesa area. And I

23 know of the smell from the mining smoke, the coal

24 burning smoke. It's -- it has a large impact on my

25 health. 20:21:28
94

1 People are talking about job losses and

2 electricity that is made from the coal. Why don't they

3 take all of this to their area, because we do not want

4 the mining and the health ills that come from mining

5 and haze. 20:21:28

6 These are my opinions. Even the

7 electrical transmission lines create health impacts and

8 health ills. I saw one of the livestock from my -- in

9 my pasture that was electrocuted when it stepped over a

10 wire, a hot wire. 20:21:28

11 These are my opinions. If you need jobs,

12 find jobs elsewhere where we're not impacted by the

13 coal mining, power plants.

14 If it's the job that these people want,

15 they can take the jobs and live within the mining areas 20:21:28

16 right there on-site.

17 And we've lost a lot of water due to the

18 mining that takes a lot of water.

19 These are my thoughts. And there's been

20 some laughter. I feel that these people are laughing 20:21:28

21 at us, because we want to take care of our lands and

22 our sacred places on the land.

23 These are my thoughts. And I came here to

24 listen and to participate in the meetings. If it's a

25 job that people want, they can find jobs elsewhere, 20:21:28
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1 like I said. For example, an ant does not have to look

2 -- an ant looks far and near to bring together what it

3 needs to survive.

4 They have destroyed my lands and

5 everything related to the environment. These are 20:21:28

6 evidence that I've seen, that I live with every day.

7 These are my grave concerns.

8 Sometimes I cannot sleep. I go outside

9 and think about these things. I can smell the smoke

10 from the mine coals that are burning. 20:21:28

11 There have been a lot of family members

12 that have passed on who have worked at the mines, and

13 other individuals that I've seen at the mines that are

14 non-Navajo. They've worked there for many years.

15 Sometimes I ask about them, and they tell me that they 20:21:28

16 died from cardiac arrest or other illnesses. The

17 mines, the coal mining kills and destroys.

18 That is all I want to say. Thank you.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Fern

20 Benally. 20:21:28

21 MS. FERN BENALLY: Thank you. My name is

22 Fern Benally. I'm from Black Mesa where Peabody Coal

23 is located. Thank you gentleman from EPA and your

24 support staff here.

25 Viruses and bacterias are invisible to the 20:21:28
96

1 naked eye but can have devastating effect if not

2 treated. All the five power plants surrounding the

3 Navajo Nation are multiple pollutants you can't measure

4 which are invisible to the naked eye, much like viruses

5 and bacteria have had irreversible -- the pollutants 20:21:28

6 much like the viruses and bacterias have had

7 irreversible consequences on the lives of my family,

8 relatives, and neighbors.

9 So, tragically, the pollutants which are

10 invisible have taken away many lives and others have 20:21:28

11 faced many medical costs, living every day with lung

12 disease, heart disease, cancers. Tonight I'll cough

13 intermittently, not because I have a cold, but because

14 I left my inhaler outside, and I wanted to hear

15 everybody talk. You can't catch anything from me. 20:21:28

16 I caught it because of the coal pollutants

17 and power plant pollutants. Years ago I was living

18 away from the Navajo Nation, but I came back less than

19 ten years. In that short time, I have been diagnosed

20 with asthma. And it's a rough life when you can't 20:21:28

21 breathe. I see little kids, they can't breathe because

22 asthma has increased so greatly.

23 At my home the wind mostly blows northeast

24 and rare occasions west. Peabody Coal is directly

25 north northeast of my home. However, most mornings I 20:21:28
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1 see the smog from the northeast coal mine that has

2 burning coal fires that has settled directly west in

3 the Blue Canyon Wash which is also known as Moenkopi

4 Wash. Maybe it's so flat here, but I know all that

5 stuff settles, because I can see it in the morning. 20:21:28

6 And I'm sure people visiting Grand Canyon can see it,

7 also, the ones that even though the winds does not blow

8 directly west here, either.

9 I'm almost done. My people have seen the

10 tragic consequences of fossil fuels. The solution to 20:21:28

11 more water, to clean energy will be wonderful.

12 So, gentleman from the EPA, let's continue

13 to move forward to clean energy which will also create

14 jobs. I thought Navajo Nation agents were government

15 agents were the only ones that run fossil fuels, but I 20:21:28

16 was sadly, deeply and sadly to see all these people

17 from the county, from the State who are leaders to hear

18 what they had to say and be stuck on fossil fuels.

19 And the guy with the pictures, we know

20 that be photographers add filters. Thank you. 20:21:28

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Tom Dorn.

22 MR. DORN: Good evening. My name is Tom

23 Dorn. I'm here on behalf of an organization known as

24 ACCCE, the American Coalition for Clean Coal

25 Electricity. ACCCE is a partnership of industries 20:21:28
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1 involved in producing electricity from coal. Coal as

2 an abundant and affordable energy resource has provided

3 nearly half of the electricity Americans depend upon

4 each and every day over the past decade.

5 ACCCE supports policies that advance the 20:21:28

6 air quality measures which comply with both federal and

7 state law and realistically meet their stated purpose.

8 I'm here today to talk about regional

9 haze, not health. We're here to share with you ACCCE's

10 great concern that the proposed EPA rule will create 20:21:28

11 the same pain that we are experiencing now at the pump

12 with high gas prices.

13 It will hurt Arizona, its citizens, its

14 workers that rely on affordable energy produced by

15 Arizona coal-powered units. Thousands of mine, power 20:21:28

16 plant, and contractor jobs are at risk, along with

17 hundreds of millions of dollars of regional economic

18 benefits, all for virtually no perceptible gain.

19 Not only is EPA's proposal the wrong plan

20 for Arizona and energy consumers, EPA's proposal charts 20:21:28

21 a path to unlawfully take away the State's regulatory

22 authority. It calls for potentially mandating hundreds

23 of millions of dollars to control technologies that

24 will not result in any perceptible improvement in

25 visibility in Class I areas, which is the sole purpose 20:21:28
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1 of the regional haze program. This cannot be a common

2 sense approach.

3 Because of these concerns, ACCCE asked the

4 EPA Administrator Jackson, EPA Regional Administrator

5 Bloomingfeld to seriously rethink the EPA's Proposed 20:21:28

6 Implementation Plan for Arizona. The right and

7 well-advised path forward is that EPA should approve

8 the Regional Haze Plan submitted by the State of

9 Arizona.

10 The regional haze program is a partnership 20:21:28

11 between the states and the federal government. As long

12 recognized by the United States Supreme Court, the

13 Clean Air Act establishes a comprehensive national

14 program that makes the states and the federal

15 government partners in the struggle against air 20:21:28

16 pollution.

17 Further, the Clean Air Act states air

18 pollution prevention and air pollution control at its

19 source is the primary responsibility of the states and

20 local governments. 20:21:28

21 Getting more specifically to the topic

22 today, the US Court of Appeals for the District of

23 Columbia circuit has ruled that the Clean Air Act calls

24 for states to play the lead role in designing and

25 implementing regional haze programs. 20:21:28
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1 As EPA knows, the goal of the regional

2 haze program is to maintain and improve visible air

3 quality in national parks and wildernesses. While

4 states are required to develop plans to insure

5 reasonable progress is made for achieving visibility 20:21:28

6 progression goals, the Clean Air Act thus gives

7 Arizona, not EPA, primary authority in determining BART

8 and reasonable progress measures that should be

9 emission sources in the State.

10 However, the proposed rule for Arizona 20:21:28

11 fails to promote and implement the state and federal

12 partnership enshrined in the Federal Clean Air Act.

13 The State of Arizona has diligently complied with the

14 visibility program requirements to meet the program's

15 regional haze goals and its determination should be 20:21:28

16 respected and supported by EPA, not disapproved.

17 Simply put, EPA cannot and should not trample on

18 Arizona sovereignty.

19 EPA's proposed SIP rules is not justified

20 and is too expensive for Arizona. 20:21:28

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Your time is up.

22 MR. DORN: The goal of the Regional Haze

23 Program is to improve visibility, not increase costs.

24 EPA's proposed plan, frankly, makes no

25 economic environmental sense. When EPA's and Arizona 20:21:28
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1 plans are compared side by side, there is no

2 difference, humanly perceivable difference between the

3 two plans. EPA's plan makes no sense to the consumer

4 that would pay for higher electricity costs which is

5 unnecessary. To put such a burden on the Arizona 20:21:28

6 economy is not is not only wrong, it's completely

7 unnecessary given that Arizona has proposed to EPA a

8 reasonable Regional Haze Plan that meets all federal

9 and state laws.

10 In conclusion, the Clean Air Act embodied 20:21:28

11 a cooperative approach to protection of air quality,

12 while also allowing states like Arizona to encourage

13 responsible economic development. Arizona's ability to

14 regulate and protect its citizens and environment must

15 include the ability to meaningfully take into account 20:21:28

16 real and distinct Arizona circumstances. That's not

17 just common sense, it happens to also be federal law.

18 EPA should not now second guess Arizona's

19 reasonable and well-supported regional haze

20 determinations. 20:21:28

21 For these reasons, ACCCE asks EPA

22 Administrator Jackson and Regional Administrator

23 Bloomingfeld to seriously reconsider EPA's proposed

24 Regional Haze Plan for Arizona, instead adopt the

25 Regional Haze Plan submitted and prepared by the State 20:21:28
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1 of Arizona. Thank you.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mary Kartchner.

3 MS. CARSON: My name is Mary Kartchner. I

4 know I'll have to spell it. It's K-a-r-t-c-h-n-e-r.

5 And I'm here -- I'd like to leave something with you to 20:21:28

6 take up to your superiors.

7 That's a token of something. When I was a

8 young girl, I used to love the conservation of national

9 resources with a passion. And because of that love, I

10 was going to go into it in college and everything. And 20:21:28

11 I worked in another state. And with that love I

12 thought I should join the Sierra Club. I started going

13 to that, and went to it for a few months, and I noticed

14 one night when I was walking home that every time I

15 left those meetings, I hated people. I mean, I was so 20:21:28

16 mad at people and the things they told me, the nasty

17 things people had done, stupid people, and I just hated

18 -- I started hating people. Then one day I thought,

19 wait a minute. I'm a person. I'm one of those people

20 that they hate. You know, am I going to be an animal, 20:21:28

21 a plant or am I going to be a person?

22 And I walked away from the Sierra Club

23 that day and never went back. And I watched the

24 environmental process start from the dust bowl in

25 Oklahoma where it was really needed, swing into that 20:21:28
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1 side of the pendulum to what it is now, way over here,

2 way out of hand, way out of control, in fact, taking

3 down our country little by little. We see it happening

4 every day, and we resent that.

5 I have one minute? Okay. I want to tell 20:21:28

6 you today that that's a dog dish that I bought on the

7 way over here. My uncle once told me, you start taking

8 things from the government, they give you a handout,

9 you put it in a dog dish, pretty soon they've got

10 control over you. 20:21:28

11 And you can see this happens when people

12 start taking these government handouts and these

13 government programs. And I just want to say, you can

14 take that dog dish. I want no part of the government

15 help or regulations. Please take it back and let us 20:21:28

16 go.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: The next five

18 speakers are Zach Butler. Michael Lackey. Christine

19 Shipper. Larry Bushman. And Mark Flake.

20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'll try and start 20:21:28

21 this --

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Just a second,

23 please. Are you Mark Flake?

24 MR. FLAKE: Yes.

25 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is Larry Bushman 20:21:28
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1 here? You may go ahead, Mr. Butler.

2 MR. BUTLER: Okay. My name is Zach Butler

3 I'm a lineman. I work out of Williams, Arizona, and I

4 have the privilege of being able to work in the Grand

5 Canyon. I travel from here to Jo City to Williams a 20:21:28

6 lot and also to Seligman and the surrounding areas.

7 Our issue tonight that we're talking about

8 is about the haze. I really haven't looked into this

9 up until the last few days, but to my understanding,

10 the processes that are being put in place are to remove 20:21:28

11 five percent of this problem.

12 Today while I was driving, I was in the

13 Grand Canyon today, the south rim. While driving over

14 there, you could look off to the west and see a brown

15 cloud. Not nothing over here driving back towards the 20:21:28

16 area of the State that has power plants in it.

17 California doesn't have coal power plants. The nearest

18 one to the west would be north of Las Vegas. With a

19 prevailing southwest wind, that one would be the issue.

20 With as much as I drive back and forth down I-40, like 20:21:28

21 I said, the clarity of the air here -- I've been

22 stopped in the last year and a half over seven times

23 where I've either had to drive hours out of my way to

24 come back to Jo City or stay the night in Flagstaff

25 because of the freeway being closed. 20:21:28
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1 I've also ran into these instances of such

2 bad visibility crossing the Navajo rez to work at

3 places like Moenkopi switchyard or near the Four

4 Corners Power Plant.

5 These aren't issues off of generation from 20:21:28

6 coal-fired power plants that were stopping the

7 traveling and restricting this and the visibility, this

8 is all dust. This is all on the Navajo rez. This is

9 over-grazing. This is a lot more than five percent of

10 what is in our area. 20:21:28

11 It's easy for some people that, like I

12 mentioned before, depend on government handouts to want

13 to stop people from working and providing for their

14 families so our taxes can be stolen from us and given

15 to other people. Thank you. 20:21:28

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Michael Lackey.

17 MR. LACKEY: My name is Michael Lackey,

18 l-a-c-k-e-y. I came straight from work here, probably

19 not the Sierra guy who could go home than enjoy the

20 electricity with a hot shower. I came here straight 20:21:28

21 from work where we produce the electricity that he

22 used. I would like to talk first -- I'm not going to

23 rebuttal so much that I listen to these Native

24 Americans talk, I'm not really politically correct, and

25 I'm not known for it, but I listen to them talk about 20:21:28
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1 people that die on the rez. They're going to die

2 anyhow. My father died. My grandfather died. They

3 died of cancer. I don't live near any power plants.

4 They all ate tomatoes. So everybody that died,

5 tomatoes killed them all. That's what they're 20:21:28

6 thinking. They say, it must have been because of the

7 coal. No. People just die.

8 And then my grandson was told by Doctor

9 Wood, who's a great asthma doctor in Phoenix, to move

10 from Phoenix up to here, to the White Mountains so he 20:21:28

11 wouldn't be stressed with asthma down there. He's up

12 here where he can breathe better. Makes no sense. You

13 can't breathe. You're dying on the rez. You're dying

14 over here from the pollution. My grandson gets sent up

15 here from a better doctor. Doesn't make sense. 20:21:28

16 I got to say that part, because emotions

17 play a big part in swaying things. And I think

18 emotions, I hope they don't sway you all. I hope real

19 facts sway you.

20 And EPA in 2000 -- just in June, 26, you 20:21:28

21 all -- when I say you all, EPA, not you did it per se

22 -- but you shut down four -- they had four lawsuits.

23 That were really 90, they put them in a four class

24 action lawsuits against EPA, against questioning their

25 Clean Air Act from all these big companies. All 90 of 20:21:28
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1 them, although it was down to the four, all got

2 cancelled right away. It was like a knockout punch is

3 what it was for them.

4 I believe personally, and also from the

5 things that I've read, that they're trying to push this 20:21:28

6 agenda through and put citations through for the power

7 plants. They're trying to get them held up in the

8 justice courts where the new president won't be able to

9 fight them, because it will be in the justice

10 department if the new president isn't Obama. If it is 20:21:28

11 Obama, he's going to bankrupt us just like he said in

12 his 2008 predictions. The coal-fired plant closings

13 will become reality. This ruin coal strategy assumes

14 three independent events will occur: The Court

15 challenges against the EPA will stop. The Democrats in 20:21:28

16 Congress will still remain spineless. And Obama is

17 re-elected.

18 The courts will determine the first thing.

19 But our votes as Americans in three months from now

20 will make sure that this doesn't happen. You all were 20:21:28

21 elected by us, and you're going to find things wrong as

22 you can as often as you can, because you depend on

23 wrong things to keep you in business. You are just

24 like climate control business. If you don't find

25 something wrong, you don't have a job. What can you 20:21:28
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1 do? You say, oh, everything is perfect. It's not

2 perfect. But it's great we're going to keep on

3 working. As long as you can find something wrong and

4 pass a law, you got a job. We're going to keep paying

5 you. We're not paying you because we want to. We're 20:21:28

6 forced to pay you, and that's just the way it is.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mike Flake.

8 MR. FLAKE: My family came to this area

9 long before this was the United States of America. We

10 came to exercise our freedom of religion. We came to 20:21:28

11 get out from under the suppression of the government.

12 The majority of the people here tonight

13 are here because they love this land. They love living

14 in this area. We're satisfied with the pollutants that

15 we're getting. We have watched over the years the 20:21:28

16 federal government and environmental groups destroy a

17 thriving logging industry in our area.

18 We've -- under the EPA and environmental

19 control agencies, we've watched our forest burn as has

20 been mentioned earlier. And once again, the most 20:21:28

21 catastrophic fires that I believe were a direct result

22 of the Environmental Protection Agency and other

23 environmental groups created many, many more pollutants

24 than will ever be emitted by the power plants that are

25 in jeopardy right now. 20:21:28
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1 The -- it's been mentioned in six months

2 -- or in six weeks the paper mill over here in

3 Snowflake will be closed as a direct result of

4 government regulations. It's sucking the lifeblood out

5 of our community, and now you're back here for more. 20:21:28

6 The State of Arizona is very capable of

7 taking care of our citizens and our air quality. And

8 I'm not going to be diplomatic about this. If you want

9 a place to start cleaning up, let it be Washington, DC

10 and San Francisco. 20:21:28

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let me double check

12 that the speakers that may have left are not here.

13 Glen Lee? Lawrence Pena? Kristen Shaffer? Larry

14 Bushman? Those are all the people that signed speaker

15 cards. Is there anyone else that wants to speak that 20:21:28

16 hasn't spoken?

17 MR. THOMPSON: Good evening. My name is

18 Jessie Thompson. I am presently serving as a Navajo

19 County Supervisor. And I had the opportunity to listen

20 to everyone here today, and I have my chairman J.R. 20:21:28

21 that made a presentation. And one of the things that

22 I'd like to remind everybody is that this is a hearing,

23 and that's why you are here. So every person, you have

24 come here to listen to everybody, not to certain ones.

25 And those are the people that signed up, so, therefore, 20:21:28
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1 we need to be respectful and be responsible in what we

2 say and how we treat other people's comments.

3 And a lot of good information has come up

4 from the public. So if there's any particular question

5 that you're still not sure of, do the research on it, 20:21:28

6 go into it. And that's what I'm asking you, to make

7 sure that every comment that has been made here is

8 considered again.

9 Thank you very much for being here today.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. 20:21:28

11 MR. SEYMORE: Thank you. I'm Daryl

12 Seymore. I'm mayor of the City of Show Low. My father

13 also built with my uncle who started the first power

14 plant in Joseph City and poured that concrete. When

15 they built that plant they probably didn't realize the 20:21:28

16 by-product that would come from coal burning. That's

17 the fly ash. Another one of our national resources is

18 limestone and it has a scarcity, as well. Because of

19 the fly ash, we probably can put 30 to 40 percent with

20 concrete and that will lengthen the life of limestone 20:21:28

21 in this country. It's one thing that hasn't been

22 mentioned tonight. I hope that you will take that into

23 consideration, the byproducts that come off of coal.

24 Thank you.

25 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think this will be 20:21:28
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1 our last one.

2 MR. MARTINEA: My name is Kevin Martinea,

3 spelled M-a-r-t-i-n-e-a.

4 I actually work in the P.V. Collar system.

5 I do that for a living. And I'm a proponent as well of 20:21:28

6 all the kinds of energy that we can take. I just

7 wanted you guys to think about the other alternatives.

8 You guys say that -- of course, by you guys, I don't

9 mean you guys, sorry, your bosses and everything else.

10 I'm a little nervous doing this. But there's a biofuel 20:21:28

11 company out there called Joule Unlimited. They take

12 CO-2, water, and sunlight, and then genetically

13 engineered a plant that secretes diesel fuel. On one

14 acre of land they can produced 15,000 barrels of oil

15 each year. And they are perfect candidates for places 20:21:28

16 like Cholla power plant or all the surrounding power

17 plants. There's no reason why for 800 million instead

18 of 400 million, we can't build a plant here and create

19 oil and create new jobs, help the economy, help

20 everybody here that has problems, and at the same time 20:21:28

21 clean up the environment.

22 Now if you're still wondering what Joule

23 Unlimited is, look it up. They're not the only ones

24 out there. It is something that's happening in New

25 Mexico right now. They're building their first 20:21:28
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1 commercial plant.

2 I just think you guys are going at it the

3 wrong way. You're trying to retrofit with a modified

4 muffler. That's not going to solve the problem.

5 If you want to help, you look at real 20:21:28

6 technology, not some -- not trading your 2004 Prius for

7 your 2005 Prius. It's not going to make a difference.

8 It's the same car. It just costs you more money.

9 Doesn't make sense. Thank you.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: If there are no 20:21:28

11 further comments, then we'll conclude this public

12 hearing. As a reminder, the period for written public

13 comment remains open until September 18, 2012.

14 Thank you all for coming and participating

15 in this public hearing. EPA appreciates you taking the 20:21:28

16 time to participate in the public hearing process.

17 This public hearing is now closed.

18 (The hearing concluded at 9:33 p.m.)

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5 C E R T I F I C A T E

6

7 I, Josie Roper, Registered Professional Reporter,

8 in and for the State of Arizona, do hereby certify that

9 I was present at the foregoing public hearing; that I

10 took down in shorthand all the proceedings had and oral

11 testimony adduced; that the same has been transcribed

12 by me; and the foregoing pages constitute a full, true,

13 and accurate transcription of my shorthand notes taken

14 aforesaid. All done to the best of my knowledge,

15 skill, and ability.

16 Dated this 20th day of August, 2012.

17

18

19 ____________________________

20 Josie Roper, RPR, CR # 50511

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