U^]ITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

TELEPHONE CONFERENCE CALL 

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IN THE MATTER OF: 

ISLAND BIRDS INC. 

(Civil Penalty Action 

FAA Docket No. 

(To Be Assigned)rso 

FDMS No. 

FAA-2011-100 

Wednesday, 

January 2 5, 2012 

The above-entitled matter came on 

for telephone conference call, pursuant to 

notice, at 1:00 p.m. 

BEPORE: THE HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN, 

Administrative Law Judge 

'CElVEi 

fE3 0 6 2111, 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE . N W 

WASHINGTON, D.C 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant Federal 

Aviation Administrat ion: 

RYAN M. LANDERS, ESQ. 

Office of the Regional 

Counsel, ASO-7 

Southern Region 

Post Office Box 20636 

Atlanta, Georgia 30320 

(404) 305-5200 

On Behalf of the Respondent Island Birds 

KATHLEEN A. YODICE, ESQ. 

TALBOT M. MARTIN, ESQ. 

of : Yodice Associates 

411 Aviation Way 

Suite 245 

Frederick, Maryland 21701 

(301) 695-2300 

(202) 234-^433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www nealrgross.com 
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JUDGE SULLIVAN: We' re on the 

record in the matter of Island Birds Inc. 

This is Docket Number FAA-2011-1008 . The day 

is Wednesday, January 25, 2012. And, the 

parties have convened for a telephonic 

litigation scheduling conference. 

The FAA attorney is Ryan Landers, 

and he's present by telephone. The 

respondent. Island Birds Inc. , is represented 

by Kathleen Yodice. She is also present by 

telephone. Present with Ms. Yodice is a Mr. 

Martin. 

Mr. -- Ms. Yodice, could you 

identify who Mr. Martin is for our record 

today? 

MS. YODICE: Yes. Mr. Talbot 

Martin is an associate with our law firm. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. And, 

is he observing today? Is that --

MS. YODICE: Well, Your Honor, he 

{202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross com 
is a -- one of the attornevs who will assist 

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in the representation of the client in this 

matter. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. But, you 

are appealing and speaking on behalf of the 

client today? 

MS. YODICE: Yes, I am. Your Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you. 

Okay, folks, just a s a preliminary 

matter, in essence the -- this court sent out 

onDecember 1, 2011, an order setting Rule 16 

scheduling conference and directing a Rule 26 , 

Subsection F, as in Frank, planning meeting 

and submission. And, then on January 19, 

2 012, I received the parties' joint Section 

13 . 217/Rule 2 6, Subsection F, as in Frank, 

report. Thank you very much. 

We do have a couple different 

matters to discuss this afternoon in addition 

to the material that you've already presented. 

And, why don't I start with you, Mr. Landers, 

since you are representing the complainant? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N VV 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. DC 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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Since this January 19, 2012 joint 

report was filed, have there been any changes 

that the parties want to alert me to? 

MR. LANDERS: There have not. Your 

Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Then my 

second question is, it appears that you have 

a fairly tight schedule that you've worked out 

together. Just so that you all know, if there 

are dispositive motions, I like to set up a 

specific reply -- an answer time, reply time, 

and then oral argument, which haven't been 

addressed in your materials that I have before 

me . 

And, we can do that today in part 

because you scheduled, or you, you indicated 

an interest in scheduling the trial the week 

that I won't be in town. I'll be on vacation 

actually that week. So, we have a little bit 

of wiggle room if you will because I won't be 

able to schedule a trial the week of May 14, 

2012 . 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. DC 20005-3701 www.nealrgross com 
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MR. LANDERS: Okay. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: So , let me start 

with you, Mr. Landers . In terms of the 

dispositive motion, you indicated a date of 

April 20, 2012. Was that the date that you 

anticipated both the motion and the answer to 

have this filed or was that a date that you 

thought would be for the motion only? 

MR. LANDERS: The motion only. Your 

Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. So, 

in looking at your calendar, and I'm going to 

be talking to Ms. Yodice about this too, but 

in looking at your calendar, let's assume just 

for the sake of argument that you would be 

filing a motion for summary judgement or some 

other type of dispositive motion on or before 

April 20, 2012. 

Do you have some suggestions for 

this administrative court about when you would 

expect to have a timely answer and when you 

think you should be filing a reply, if any. 

{202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. DC 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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before oral argument starts? 

MR. LANDERS; As far as an answer, 

I v;ill leave that up to Ms. Yodice. As far as 

my reply, I can have that to the court within 

three days of me getting her answer should I 

file one. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. 

Okav. 

Ms . Yodice, let me turn to you 

then for those particular questions. Let's 

assume, for example, Mr. Landers files a 

motion on April 20, 2012, and you're the 

answering party, how much time do you usually 

need to file an answer to such a motion? 

MS. YODICE: Well, Your Honor, it's 

hard to predict what the motion would be and 

how straightforward or complex it could be, 

but in other areas in which we practice, we 

are typically working with a 30 to -- excuse 

me, a 15 to 3 0-day response time for these 

kinds of matters. And, we'd certainly be 

willina to. to trv to accommodate that kind of 

(202) 234-4133 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www nealrgross.com 
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time frame. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. In the 

jurisdiction in which I practiced prior to 

coming to ' the U.S. Department of 

Transportation, typically was between 10 and 

14 days. So, what I'll do is I'll err on the 

side of caution and I'll just take a look at 

my calendar for a 15-day period. 

So, it looks like that would end 

up on a weekend, so how about if we say May 7, 

May 8? Does that sound good to you? 

MS. YODICE: Yes, Your Honor, that 

sounds fine. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Let's say 

May 8 just to err on the side of caution. 

And, then with a reply, in my prior practice, 

the reply was usually done within seven days. 

And, I've heard from Mr. Landers that three 

days is acceptable for him, but since, Ms. 

Yodice, you potentially could be the moving 

party in any such motion with responsibility 

for a reply if you chose to file one. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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Would three days work for you or 

v;ould you prefer something a little longer? 

MS. YODICE: Well, Your Honor, 

consistent with your practice, I would prefer 

the seven-day reply period. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. Then 

let's put a reply date as 5/15/2012. And, 

then I' m looking at my calendar for oral 

argument. And, sometimes -- sometimes I don't 

need oral argument, but nine times out of ten 

for dispositive motions, I like to have it 

because I find that it can be very helpful and 

persuasive, particularly when I have some 

questions about the material. 

So, in looking at your calendars, 

T actually have May 2 4 open all day if both 

parties have that date open for an oral 

argument by telephone like we're doing today. 

If that day doesn't work, I can look at the 

following week. 

Starting with you, Mr. Landers, do 

you have time available on May 24, 2012? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
MR. LANDERS: Yes, Your Honor, I'm 

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Open that day. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

And, Ms. Yodice, how about you? 

MS. YODICE: Yes, Your Honor, we're 

avallable. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Does anybody have 

a blackout time that they don' t want me to 

consider? Starting with you, Mr. Landers. 

MR. LANDERS: No, ma'am. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, Ms. Yoder --

Yodice, excuse me? 

MS. YODICE: Well, Your Honor, I'm 

not sure how far out you're asking, but 

between now and that May time period, we can 

be flexible with dates. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I'm talking 

about the day of May 24, 2012 for a one-hour 

telephone motion conference. 

MS. YODICE: Oh, I'm sorry. Your 

Honor. I thought we addressed that, but that 

would -- is an available date for us for oral 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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argument. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, my question 

to you is, do you have any time period on that 

d a y that you don't want me to set? 

MS. YODICE: I understand now. Your 

Honor. I'm sorry for my misunderstanding. 

No, we're available all day. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you. 

Why don' t we plan on the same, same 

approximate time as when we started today? 

I'm just going to add -- I'll put 1:30 down. 

So, on May 24, 2012, from 1:30 to 2:30, I'm 

going to schedule an oral argument on any 

potential dispositive motions that are filed. 

If neither of you file dispositive 

motions, I'll cancel that oral argument as 

being not needed, but that way we have it all 

set up right now just in case. 

That leaves us with looking at 

some alternate times fox" a trial date or a 

hearing date after May 24, 2012. Let me take 

a look at my calendar first. 

(202} 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross com 
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And, it looks like that puts me 

into June, and my calendar in June has not yet 

had any hearings set, so I' m very flexible if 

June would work for the two of you. 

Mr. Landers, starting with you. 

MR. LANDERS: Excuse me, Your 

Honor. The week of the 4th, I am unavailable, 

and then that Monday and Tuesday of the 11th, 

so starting the 13th on, I'm available the 

rest of that month. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, with that, 

how long do you think this case will need for 

a trial date? 

MR. LANDERS: I envision it only 

taking one day, but I don't know how many 

witnesses Ms. Yodice is planning on calling. 

I envision just presenting the one witness for 

the administrator. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And, 

because it wasn't clear to me in either of 

your materials, and you didn't address it the 

joint scheduling materials that you sent me. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. DC 20005-3701 www.nealrgross com 
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can you tell me where you think this should 

be? Because 1 have the FAA saying originally 

that it v/ants Miami, Florida, with the 

re.spondent countering with a request for St. 

Thomas in the Virgin Islands. 

MR. L.ANDERS: Yes, Your Honor. The 

administrator would prefer Miami. That's 

where his witnesses are. However, we could do 

the Virgin Islands as well. We weren't able 

to reach an agreement, so we decided to leave 

it up to the court as to which location when 

we did the --

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. In the 

future, if you, if you look at the rules, if 

you have differences, what you want to do in 

your joint schedule is specifically note what 

the dispute is and then also put in a brief 

statement about what your arguments are 

regarding the dispute so that I know and I can 

be prepared for that. 

MR. LANDERS: Yes, Your Honor. 

Sorrv-

(202j 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE . N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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JUDGE SULLIVAN: So, that way I can 

kind of look at a couple of things or look up 

some Tnaterials before we get started to 

address that. So, with -- with your one 

witness essentially, you're saying that your 

one witness would take one day or just a half 

a day for his or her testimony? 

MR. LANDERS: Hal f a day, Your 

Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And, would 

that half a day in your opinion also include 

any kind of preliminary motions you might make 

or any kind of brief opening statement if you 

wanted to make it? 

MR. LANDERS: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Why is it, 

in your opinion, that you would want to have 

Miami, Florida preferred over St. Thomas in 

the Virgin Islands? 

MR. LANDERS: That's where the 

investigating official who will be our witness 

is located. 

:-02) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, where are the 

- - where did the actual investigation take 

place? 

MR. LANDERS: I don't recall off 

the top of my head. Give me just one second. 

I don't know if Ms. Yodice knows off the top 

of her head. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I' m sure 

I'll be asking her, but if you don't know, 

just say you don't know and I'll --

MR. LANDERS: I don't know. I'll 

look through the file as we continue. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Other than the 

fact that that's -- that Miami, Florida is 

where your witness actually is based, do you 

have any other factual material that you would 

like to bring to my attention to support your 

request that venue should be in Miami, 

Florida? 

MR. LANDERS: Well, Your Honor, and 

if it makes it easier, the administrator is 

ope n to the Virgin Islands as well, 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W 

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JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you. 

So, in terms of June of 2012, Mr. Landers, 

you, you were saying that you're available as 

of June 13 and then the rest of t'he month if 

I understand your statement. 

MR. LANDERS: That's correct. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

Ms. Yodice, let's talk about venue 

first. You've heard what Mr. Landers had to 

say about Miami, Florida in contrast to St . 

Thomas in the Virgin Islands. You had 

requested St. Thomas in the Virgin Islands. 

Is that where the investigation actually took 

place? 

MS. YODICE: No, Your Honor. The 

observation by the FAA inspector about the 

issue on the aircraft took place, as I 

understand it, in San Juan, at the airport in 

San Juan, Puerto Rico. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

MS. YODICE: We requested St . 

Thomas because that is the base of operations 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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for tihe company, and we would expect that 

there could be two or three people from the 

company that may be available to either 

testify or certainly be available to provide 

information, guidance on the information 

that's being put forth by the FAA, and that 

kind of support. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: I have not been to 

the Virgin Islands before, can you advise me 

how easy or how difficult it is to fly in and 

out of there? 

MS. YODICE: There are three U.S. 

Virgin Islands, St. Thomas, St. Croix, and St. 

John. And, St. Thomas is the most commercial 

of the three and it is -- my experience is it 

is as easy to fly in through that airport as 

it would be to say Puerto Rico. The other two 

islands tend to be more remote, less service, 

and they would be not as conducive, but, of 

course, they're not at issue, but I was just 

trying to put it a bit in perspective. 

My experience getting into St. 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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Thomas, it's fairly easy. It is a commercial 

area and bustling and would have all the 

provisions that we would find in a similar 

commercial area. Maybe not as prevalent as 

would be in Miami, but certainly as might be 

in any other commercial context you might 

imagine. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Since you have a 

business address in Frederick, Maryland, I 

presume that you' re using one of the three 

airports nearby, Dulles, Reagan National, or 

Baltimore. Do you have a preference when 

you've flown in-and-out of those airports to 

get to St. Thomas? 

MS. YODICE: No. I think Baltimore 

probably offers more service. American 

Airlines runs into St . Thomas pretty 

regularly. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And, about 

how long does it take? 

MS. YODICE: You can go non --

well, now I have to recollect. It's been a 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

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while and some of the spoke services has 

changed, but if you leave something about 

8:00, 7:00 or 8:00 in the morning, you're 

probably there by early to mid-afternoon at 

the latest. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you. 

Lee me ask you this in terms of your case as 

you see it constituted right now, how many 

witnesses do you think you might be calling 

and how much time do you think you would need 

for trial? 

MS. YODICE: I -- at the -- at the 

worst, if that' s the right word, I would 

expect three witnesses from the company and an 

expert, but -- and so that could constitute 

maybe a full day's testimony. In other words, 

eight hours, although, I do fully expect that 

that expectation will be whittled down 

depending on the conversations with the FAA 

and the discovery exchange that we go through. 

So, it is fairly conceivable that our part of 

the case could be done in a half a day as 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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well . 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And, would 

that include any particular motions in limine, 

oral arguments, or opening statements, those 

kinds of things, or is that a little bit of an 

added piece of time? 

MS. YODICE: My belief that would 

be a little bit more of an added time, so 

maybe add another hour or two for that kind of 

argument. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. It sounds 

to me -- just to err on the side of caution 

that it might be helpful to schedule this for 

a two full day hearing. 

Ms. Yodice, what is your response 

to that? 

MS. YODICE: I don't disagree, Your 

Honor. I am hopeful that we will be able to 

agree to certain aspects that will minimize 

the time and hope to have it done in a single 

day. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. But, for --

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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I'd much prefer having as much time as 

possible scheduled because then we can always 

leave early or reduce the amount of time we're 

actually there as opposed to finding at the 

end of the first day that we don't have enough 

time and we don't all of us have the ability 

to stay. So - -

MS. YODICE: I agree. Your Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. My general 

rule of thumb is to just, to assume that we 

add as much time as possible and then hone it 

from there. So, let me ask you about your 

June calendar. 

Do you have any blackout times 

during the month of June in addition Co the 

times that Mr. Landers has already noted? 

MS. YODICE: I don't have any 

absolute blackouts. However, I would prefer 

to avoid the week of the 11th. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So, how 

about the week of the 18th? Father's Day is 

Sunday, June 17, 2012, but we could schedule 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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the case any time during the week of the 18th. 

Would that be acceptable, Ms. 

Yodice? 

MS. YODICE: Yes, it would. Your 

Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

Mr. Landers, let me turn to you. 

Do you have any preference in terms of days 

during the week of June 18, 2012? 

MR. LANDERS: I would prefer not to 

start on Monday just so we can use that as a 

travel date, but other than that, I'm open. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Since I am 

with you, Mr. Landers, at this point, how 

about if we schedule this for -- we could 

eicher schedule the trial itself for Tuesday 

and Wednesday with travel on Monday and 

Thursday potentially, or we could schedule 

this for Wednesday/Thursday with travel on 

Tuesday/Friday. 

Do you have any preference? 

MR. LANDERS: I do not. Either one 

(202) 234-4433 

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preference? 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

Ms. Yodice, do you have any 

MS. YODICE: No, I don't think so, 

Your Honor. Maybe there's a slight, and maybe 

it's more gut than anything else to, to prefer 

Wednesday/Thursday, but I think that's just 

simply a thought, so we could, we could work 

with either. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Monday and 

-- Monday and Friday are actually very heavy 

travel days, so we'll --we have (telephonic 

interference) of the other. Let' s - - if we 

need to fly, for those of us who do, on 

Tuesday, June 19. We'11 have the trial set 

for Wednesday, June 20, and Thursday, June 21, 

and then we will have potential travel back on 

Friday if you choose not to travel the night 

of Thursday, June 21, 2012. 

Typically with my trials, I like 

to start them at 9:00, go till 4:30, and have 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross com 
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at least an hour for lunch, so that you know. 

And, then with, with the particular order that 

I'm going to send out, I'll put in all of this 

information in the litigation procedure order, 

but I also want to put in some information 

about when to file pre-hearing briefs, as well 

as any written stipulations if you would like 

to do that. 

So, for example, I will be issuing 

an order shortly after May 24 , 2012 if the 

parties file dispositive motion and I hear 

argument on May 24, 2012 . Between May 24 , 

2012 and say June 19, 2012, we've got a couple 

days to talk about filing stipulations and/or 

pre-hearing briefs. 

Starting with you, Mr. Landers, do 

you have any proposal for those dates? 

MR. LANDERS: Excuse me. No, Your 

Honor, I can do it whenever - - whenever you 

would like have them. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

Ms. Yodice, do you have any 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross com 
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proposals or preferences for stipulations 

and/or pre-hearing' briefs? 

MS. YODICE: No, Your Honor, we're 

fairly available. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Why don't I 

suggest that you have your stipulations filed 

by Tuesday, June 5, 2012, and then pre-hearing 

briefs filed by Tuesday, June 12, 2012, and 

then the following week, we'll all see each 

other in St . Thomas in the Virgin Islands for 

trial? And, then, of course, you're welcome 

at any time to se'ttle. I know that you know 

that, but I always encourage it if you can. 

Starting with you, Mr. Landers, is 

there anything else that we need to address on 

behalf of your client before we close today? 

MR. LANDERS: There is not, Your 

Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

Ms. Yodice, on behalf' of your 

client, anything that we need to address? 

MS. YODICE: Your Honor, just a 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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question about the manner that you prefer to 

address if there are any discovery disputes. 

How would you prefer to handle those kinds of 

things? Not that I anticipate them in this 

case, but having never appeared before you, I 

would certainly appreciate any information 

that we may need to take into consideration 

should one arise. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: I have some 

boilerplate language that I put in my 

litigation proceeding order, procedural order, 

but I'm happy to answer questions for you. 

I think that the moment that you 

find that you have a discovery problem, you 

should be calling my office to set up an oral 

argument date. I keep my calendar available 

for those kinds of problems. 

So, your motion itself should be 

filed, I think, as soon as possible, but no 

later than 15 days after the problem arises, 

so that you can keep ahead of those deadline 

schedules as much as possible. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE . N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealfgross.com 

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In conjunction with the motion, 

ideally what I like to have is to have the --

the parties first and foremost according to 

the civil rules need to conference about the 

discovery dispute, and then the moving party 

needs to in his or her motion note that a 

discovery conference has been conducted and 

that it did not result in resolution leading 

to a motion to compel. I think you all know 

that . 

The phone call to my office should 

be directed to my legal secretary. Her name 

is Diane Mays, M-A-Y-S. Her phone number will 

be in the procedural order that you will 

receive and she has full access to my 

calendar. 

What the easiest thing to do is, 

in my opinion, and you can educate me 

differently if you find it's not so, is when 

you do your discovery conference with the 

opposing side, take a look at your calendars 

together. Find three different dates for an 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www. nea Irgros s. com 
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oral argument on the motion and offer those to 

Diane when you call her and ask to set 

something up on my calendar. 

She'll have access to my calendar, 

and if I have free time, she'll tell you and 

she'11 set it. And, then you can basically 

file your motion, file the answer, and if you 

want to file a reply as the moving party prior 

to that oral argument, you can. 

I' ve been able to hear some 

motions to compel within a very short period 

of time with that type of action. If it's an 

emergency, for example, let's say that you're 

in the midst of a perpetuation deposition or 

a pre-hearing deposition and you need me to 

rule on an evidentiary issue, you can always 

call my office. And, if I'm available, I can 

get on the phone and make a ruling, but that's 

fairly rare actually because most objections 

can be preserved in the deposition for ruling 

later. 

But, for you know, just 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D C. 20005-3701 www. nea (rgross.com 
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generally typical motions to compel, ideally 

you would have your pre -- your conference 

regarding the disputed issue. Within that 

conference, you talk about calendaring an oral 

arguinent, get three dates that you both like, 

call my office, set that oral argument up 

right away, and then backtrack in terms of 

what your calendars are like so that you have 

your motion filed, the answer filed, and the 

reply prior to the oral argument. 

Does that help at all? 

MR. LANDERS: Yes, Your Honor. 

Thank you very much. And, I appreciate your 

position on that . That is always very 

helpful, at least in my experience in cases 

when we have access to the Judge early to 

resolve them earlier to stay on track. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. It's very 

helpful and sometimes I can rule so that 

everybody is happy, and other times, not, but 

I do the very best I can. And, you should 

always feel that you have access to the court. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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procedural order will tell you a little bit 

more about that. The only time I need to see 

discovery material is if you're moving to 

compel for some reason. 

And, it would be very helpful if 

when you make those motions that you state 

specifically what relief you were requesting. 

I've had people file motions to compel and 

then just tell me that it will be up to me. 

I prefer to have some direction as 

to what you actually want as opposed to a 

generic statement that you would like to have 

justice done. 

MS. YODICE: Well, Your Honor, if I 

may? What you just said triggered something 

for me. In exchanging discovery between us, 

are you saying that we should not serve you or 

the docket with the discovery responses? 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: You don't need to. 

MS. YODICE: So, we would -- those 

documents would just be between us and not in 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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JUDGE SULLIVAN: Unless you feel 

for some reason that you need to make a record 

of discovery exchange, I don't think it's ever 

necessary to put it in the court's docket. 

MS. YODICE: Okay, good. I'm glad 

to make that clarification. Thank you. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: For example, if 

you served the FAA with interrogatories, you 

don' t need to file the request for 

interrogatories with this administrative 

court, ]ust as Mr. Landers does not need to 

serve a copy of his answers to interrogatory 

with this court. 

Those are -- discovery is always 

considered, in my opinion, a much broader 

legal tool than the actual trial itself. So -

- so there may be things in those discovery 

documents that neither party would like to 

have the court to know about. So, it is not 

my business to know what the two of you are 

exchanging unless you have a dispute about the 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE . N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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my opinion. 

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MS. YODICE: Okay, great. Thank 

you very much. Your Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Any other 

questions, Ms. Yodice? 

MS. YODICE: None. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, Mr. Landers? 

MR. LANDERS: No, Your Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you 

both very much for your presence today. It 

appears our business is complete. I will be 

sending out this procedural order hopefully 

this afternoon, and if not this afternoon, 

you'll get it tomorrow at the latest. Thank 

you very much. We can go off the record. 

And, I wish you all a good day. 

MS. YODICE: Thank you very much. 

Your Honor. 

MR. LANDERS: Thank you. 

{Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter concluded at 1:32 p.m.) 

(202} 234.4J33 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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nearby 18:11 

necessary 31:5 

nccd7:149:10 

12:12 19:1023:15 

25:15,21 26:7 

27:4 28:15 30:3 

30:2031:3,10,12 

needed 11:17 

needs 27:6 

neither 11:15 31:19 

never 26:5 

night 23:19 

nine 9:10 

non 18:21 

note 13:16 27:6 

noted2l:16 

notice 1:18 

nuniber3:5 27:13 

O 

objections 28:19 

observation 16:16 

observing 3:21 

offer 28:1 

offers 18:16 

office 1:2 2:5,6 

26:1527:11 28:17 

29:6 

official 14:21 

Oh 10:20 

Okay 4:4,8,9 5:6 

6:r,ll,ll 7:7,7,S 

8:2.14 9:6,6 10:3 

11:8 12:19 13:13 

14:10,16 16:1,7 

16:20 18:19 19:6 

20:2,11,22 21:20 

22:6.13 23:2,11 

24:21 25.5,\9 

31:6 32:3,10 

one-hour 10:18 

open 9:16,17 10:2 

15:22 22:12 

opening 14:13 20:4 

operations 16:22 

opinion 14:1 1,17 

27:18 31:16 32:2 

opposed 21:4 30:12 

opposing27:21 

oral5:12 7:l 9:8,10 

9:17 10:22 11:13 

11:1620:4 26:15 

28:1,9 29:4,6,10 

order4:ll 24:2,4 

24:1026:11,11 

27:14 30:2 32:13 

oricinallv 13:2 

part5:15 19:21 

particular 7:10 

20:3 24:2 

particularly 9:13 

parties 3:7 4:15 5:3 

9:1724:1! 27.-3 

party 7:13 8:21 

27:5 28:8 31:19 

Penalty 1:9 

people 17:2 30:9 

period 8:8 9:5 

10:15 11:3 28:11 

perpetuation 28:14 

perspective 17:21 

persuasive 9:13 

phone 27:1 1,13 

28:18 

piece 20:6 

place 15:3 16:14,17 

plan 11:9 

planning4:13 

12:16 

point 22:14 

position 29:14 

possible 21:2,1 1 

26:19,22 

Po.st2:6 

potential 11:14 

23:18 

potentially 8:20 

22:18 

practice 7: IS 8:16 

9:4 

practiced 8:3 

pre 29:2 

predict 7:16 

prefer 9:2,4 13:7 

21:1,1822:10 

23:7 26:1,3 30:11 

preference 18:12 

22:8,21 23:4 

preferences 25:1 

preferred 14:18 

preliminary 4:9 

14:12 

prepared 13:20 

presence 32:1 1 

present3:10,12,13 

presented 4:20 

presenting 12:17 

preserved 28:20 

presume 18:10 

pretty 18:17 

prevalent 18:4 

Pag e 3 5 

pre-hearing 24:6 

24:15 25:2,7 

28:15 

prior8:3,16 2S:S 

29:10 

probably 18:16 

19:4 

problem 26:14,20 

problems 26:17 

procedural 26:1 1 

27:14 30:2 32:13 

procedure 24:4 

proceeding 26:1 1 

proposal 24:17 

proposals 25:1 

provide 17:4 

provisions 18:3 

Puerto 16:19 17:17 

pursuant 1:17 

put9:7 \\:\\ 13:J7 

17:6,21 24:3,5 

26:1031:5 

puts 12:1 

P-R-0-C-E-E-D-... 

3:1 

p.ni 1:18 3:2 32:22 

_Q 

question y.l 11:2 

26:1 

questions 7:10 9:14 

26:12 32:6 

R 

rare 28:19 

reach 13:10 

Reagan 18:11 

reason 30:5 31:3 

recall 15:4 

receive 27; 15 

received 4:15 

recollect 18:22 

record 3:4,16 31:3 

32:16 

reduce 21:3 

regarding 13:19 

29:3 

Rc"ion 2:6 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-443 3 

I n c . 
Regional 2:5 

regularly 18:18 

relief30:8 

remote 17:18 

reply 5:11,1 1 6:22 

7:4 8:16.17,22 9:5 

9:7 28:8 29:10 

report 4:17 5:2 

representation 4:2 

represented 3:11 

representing 4:22 

request 13:4 15:18 

31:10 

requested 16:12,21 

requesting 30:8 

resolution 27:8 

resolve 29:17 

respondent 2:12 

3:11 13:4 

response 7:20 

20:15 

responses 30:19 

responsibility S:21 

rest 12:10 16:4 

result 27:S 

Ricol6:19 17:17 

right 11:18 19:8,13 

29:7 

room 5:20 

rule4:ll,1221:10 

28:1629:19 

rules 13:14 27:4 

ruling 28:18,20 

runs 18:17 

Rvan2:4 3:9 

sake 6:15 

San 16:18,19 

sayinj^ 13:2 14:5 

i6:3 30:lS 

schedule 5:S.21 

11:13 13:1620:13 

21:22 22:15,16,18 

scheduled 5:16 

21:2 

schedules 26:22 

scheduling3:8 4:12 

5:17 12:22 

scope 32:1 

second 5:7 15:5 

secretary 27:12 

Section 4:1 5 

see 19:8 25:9 30:3 

send 24:3 

sending 32:13 

sent4:10 12:22 

serve 30:18 31:13 

served 3 1:9 

service 17: IS 18:16 

services 19:1 

set5:10 11:4,18 

12:3 23:1626:15 

28:2,6 29:6 

setting 4:11 

settle 25:12 

seven S:17 

seven-day 9:5 

she'll 28:4,5,6 

short 28:11 

shortly 24:10 

side 8:7,15 20:12 

27:21 

similar 1S:3 

simply 23:9 

single 20:20 

slight 23:6 

soon 26:19 

sorry 10:20 11:6 

13:22 

sound 8:11 

sounds 8:13 20: II 

Southern 2:6 

speaking4:5 

specific 5:11 

specifically 13:16 

30:8 

spoke 19:1 

St 13:4 14:18 16:10 

16:12,21 17:13.13 

17:13,14,22 18:14 

18:1725:10 

start 4:21 6:2 22:11 

23:22 

started 11:10 14:3 

starting9:21 10:9 

12:5.9 24:16 

25:14 

starts 7:1 

state 30:7 

statement 13:18 

14:13 16:5 30:13 

statements 20:4 

STATES 1:1 

stay 21:7 29:17 

stipulations 24:7 

24:14 25:1,6 

straightforward 

7:17 

submission 4:14 

Subsection 4:13,16 

suggest 25:6 

suggestions 6:19 

Suite 2.-20 

SULLIVAN 1:21 

3:3,20 4:4,8 5:6 

6:2,11 7:7 8:2,14 

9:6 10:3,7,11,17 

11:2,8 12:11,19 

13:13 14:1,10,16 

15:1,8.13 16:1.7 

16:20 17:8 18:8 

18:19 19:6 20:2 

20:11,22 21:9,20 

22:6,13 23:2,11 

24:21 25:5,19 

26:9 29:18 30:20 

31:2,8 32:5.8,10 

summary 6:16 

Sunday 21:22 

support 15:17 17:7 

sure 10:14 15:8 

take8:7 11:21 14:6 

15.-2 18:20 26:7 

27:21 

Talbot 2:17 3:18 

talk 16:8 24:14 

29:4 

talking6:13 10:17 

telephone 1:3,17 

3:10,139:18 

10:19 

telephonic 3:7 

23:13 

tell 13:1 28:5 30:2 

30:10 

ten 9:10 

tend 17:18 

terms6:3 16:2 19:7 

22:8 29:7 

testify 17:4 

testimony 14:7 

19:16 

Thank3:204:S,17 

11:8 16:1 19:6 

29:13 31:732:3 

32:10,15,18,20 

thing27:17 

things 14:2 20:5 

26:4 31:18 

think 6:22 12:12 

13:1 18:15 19:9 

19:1023:5,8 

26:13,1927:9 

31:4 

Thomas 13:5 14:18 

16:11,12,22 17:13 

17:14 18:1,14,17 

25:10 

thought6:S 10:21 

23:9 

three 7:5 8: IS 9:1 

17:2,12,15 18:10 

19:14 27:22 29:5 

thunib21:10 

Thursday 22: IS 

23:17,20 

tight 5:8 

till 23:22 

time 5:11,11 7:13 

7:20 8:1 9:22 

10:8,15 11:3,10 

19:10 20:6,8,20 

21:1,3,6,11 22:1 

25:12 28:5,12 

30:3 

Pag e 3 6 

timely 6:21 

times 9:10 11:20 

21:14,1629:20 

today3:17,21 4:6 

5:159:18 11:10 

25:1632:11 

tomorrow 32:15 

tool 3 1:17 

top 15:5,6 

town 5:18 

track 29:17 

Transportation 1:1 

S:5 

travel 22:12,17,19 

23:13,18,19 

trial 5:17,21 11:20 

12:13 19:11 22:16 

23:1625:11 31:17 

trials 23:21 

triggered 30:16 

try 7:22 

trying 17:21 

Tuesday 12:8 

22:1623:1625:7 

25:8 

Tuesday/Friday 

22:20* 

turn 7:9 22:7 

two 12:4 17:2.17 

20:9,14 31:21 

type6:17 28:12 

typical 29:1 

typically 7:19 8:5 

23:21 

U 

unavailable 12:7 

understand 1 1:5 

16:5,18 

UNfTED 1:1 

use 22:11 

usually 7; 13 S: I 7 

U.SS:4 17:12 

vacation 5:18 

venue 15:18 16:8 

Virgin 13:5,9 14:19 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. , Inc . 

202-234-443 3 
Pag

e 37 

15:22 16:11,12 

17:9,1325:10 \V 

want 5:3 10:8 11:4 

13:15 14:1724:5 

28:8 30:12 

wanted 14:14 

wants 13:3 

wasn't 12:20 

way 2:19 11:17 

14:1 

Wednesday 1:12 

3:6 22:1723:17 

Wednesday/Thu... 

22:19 23:8 

week 5:17,19,21 

9:20 12:721:19 

21:21 22:1,9 25.9 

weekends: 10 

welcome 25:1 1 

weren't 13:9 

we'll 23:13.16 25:9 

we're 3:3 9:18 10:5 

11:721:3 25:3 

we've 24:13 

whittled 19:18 

wiggle 5:20 

willing 7:22 

wish 32:17 

witness 12:17 14:5 

14:6,21 15:15 

witnesses 12:16 

13:8 19:9,14 

word 19:13 

words 19: If) 

work 9:1,19 12:4 

23:9 

worked 5:8 

working 7:19 

works 23:1 

worst 19:13 

written 24:7 

Voder 10:il 

Yodice 2:16.18 

3:12.13,15.18,22 

4:7 6:13 7:3.9,15 

8:12.20 9:3 10:4,5 

10:12,13,20 11:5 

12:16 15:6 16:S 

16:15,21 17:12 

18:15,21 19:12 

20:7,15,1721:8 

21:1722:3.4 23:3 

23:5 24:22 25:3 

25:20,22 30:15,21 

31:6 32:3,6,7,18 

i 

14:11 

1:00 1:18 

1:30 11:11,12 

1:32 32:22 

108:5 

llth 12:821:19 

12 25:8 

12:593:2 13 16:4 

13th 12:9 

I3.217/Rule4:16 

145:21 S:6 

15 7:20 26:20 

15-day 8:8 

164:11 

1721:22 18 22:9 

|8th21:21 22:1 

194:14 5:1 23:16 

24:13 

2:3011:12 

206:5,187:12 

23:17 

20114:11 

2012 1:133:64:15 

5:1,22 6:5,187:12 

9:22 10:18 11:12 

11:21 16:221:22 

22:9 23:20 24:10 

24:12,13,13 25:7 

25:8 

20636 2:6 

2123:17,20 

217012:21 24 9 11 24 

16,22 10:18 

12,21 24:10,12 

12 

245 2:20 

25 1:13 3:6 

264:12,16 

307:19 

30-dav7:20 

301 2:22 

30320 2:7 

305-5200 2:8 

4th 12:7 

4:30 23:22 

404 2:8 

4n2:] 9 

525:7 

5/15/2012 9:7 

695-2300 2:22 

78:10 

7:00 19:3 

8 

88:11,15 

8:00 19:3,3 

9:00 23:22 

Neal R. Gross •& Co. 

202-234-443 3 

I n c 
CERTIFICATE 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

in the matter of: Island Birds Inc. 

Before: Judge J.E. Sullivan 

Date: 1/25/12 

Place: Via teleconference 

represents the full and complete proceedings of the 

aforementioned matter, as reported and reduced to 

typewriting. 

tiAt. .HANeal R. Gro: 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

{202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com