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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY**

**+ + + + + MANUFACTURED HOUSING WORKING GROUP** 

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + WEDNESDAY**  **OCTOBER 1, 2014**

**+ + + + + The Public Meeting met in Room 6097,**  **950 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Eileen Hoffman and Javier Ramirez,**  **Meeting Facilitators, presiding. PRESENT**  **EILEEN HOFFMAN, Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, Facilitator**  **JAVIER RAMIREZ, Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, Facilitator**  **TED BANTLE, Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, Facilitator**  **JOHN CASKEY, National Electrical Manufacturer's Association**  **KEITH DENNIS, National Rural Electric Cooperative Association** * **ISHBEL DICKENS, National Manufactured Home Owners Association** * **SCOTT DRAKE, East Kentucky Power Cooperative** * **MARK EZZO, Clayton Homes, Inc.*** **JOSEPH HAGERMAN, U.S. Department of Energy RICHARD HANGER, Housing Technology and**  **Standards*** **BERT KESSLER, Palm Harbor Homes, Inc.***

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### ERIC LACEY, Responsible Energy Codes **Alliance MICHAEL EMANUEL LEVY, Systems Building**  **Research Alliance*** **MICHAEL LUBLINER, Washington State University Extension Energy Program** * **ROBERT LUTER, Lippert Components, Inc.*** **RICHARD POTTS, Virginia Department of Housing and Community Development**  **ROBIN ROY, Natural Resource Defense Council MANUEL SANTANA, Cavco Industries** * **PETER SCHNEIDER, Efficiency Vermont*** **LOIS STARKEY, Manufactured Housing Institute DAVID TOMPOS, NTA, Inc.**  **LOWELL UNGAR, American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy**  **MICHAEL WADE, Cavalier Home Builders*** **MARK WEISS, Manufactured Housing Association ALSO PRESENT**  **EDWARD BARBOUR, Navigant MICHAEL JENSEN, Office of General Council,**  **U.S. Department of Energy RICK MENDLEN, Department of Housing and**  **Urban and Urban Development KAVITA VAIDYANATHAN, Office of General**  **Counsel, Department of Energy MATTHEW WALKER, Navigant** 

***present via teleconference**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **TABLE OF CONTENTS Page**  **Welcome and Introduction Eileen Hoffman . . . . . . . . . . . 4**  **Javier Ramirez . . . . . . . . . . . 6**

**Opening Remarks Javier Ramirez . . . . . . . . . . . 7**  **John Caskey. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8**

**Agenda Review Javier Ramirez . . . . . . . . . . .13** 

**2015 IECC Subcommittee Recommendations Manuel Santana . . . . . . . . . . .15** 

**Straw Man Emanuel Levy . . . . . . . . . . . 129** 

**Public Comment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 325**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  **2 (9:04 a.m.)**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: Good morning. I'm**  **4 Eileen Barkas Hoffman, one of your co**  **5 facilitators for the Manufactured Housing**  **6 Working Group Negotiated Rulemaking.**  **7 My colleague, Javier Ramirez, and**  **8 Ted Bantle. We have got a lot to do today and**  **9 tomorrow and I think the first way to get**  **10 started is to see first, introduce who is in**  **11 the room and then who is on line. So, can we**  **12 start with you, Joe?**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.**  **14 MR. LACEY: Eric Lacey, Responsible**  **15 Energy Codes Alliance.**  **16 MS. STARKEY: Lois Starkey, the**  **17 Manufactured Housing Institute.**  **18 MR. UNGAR: Lowell Ungar, American**  **19 Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy.**  **20 MR. POTTS: Richard Potts, Virginia**  **21 Department of Housing and Community**  **22 Development.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, Manufactured**  **2 Housing Association for Regulatory Reform.**  **3 MR. TOMPOS: David Tompos, NTA.**  **4 MR. BANTLE: Ted Bantle, FMCS.**  **5 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, NEMA.**  **6 MR. ROY: Robin Roy, Natural**  **7 Resources Defense Council.**  **8 MR. WALKER: Matthew Walker,**  **9 Navigant.**  **10 MR. BARBOUR: Ed Barbour, Navigant.**  **11 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Kavita**  **12 Vaidyanathan, DOE General Counsel's Office.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: And Javier Ramirez**  **14 with Federal Mediation and Conciliation**  **15 Service.**  **16 MS. HOFFMAN: Great, thank you.**  **17 Now, I would like to read who is on the line.**  **18 And if anyone else is there, let us know.**  **19 Ishbel Dickens, National**  **20 Manufactured Home Owners Association; Scott**  **21 Drake, East Kentucky Power Cooperative; Mark**  **22 Ezzo, Clayton Homes; Richard Hanger, Housing** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Technology Standards; Rob Luter, Lippert**  **2 Components; Manny Santana, Cavco Industries;**  **3 and Michael Wade, Cavalier Home Builders.**  **4 Have we missed anyone who is online**  **5 who is a delegate member?**  **6 MR. LEVY: Emanuel Levy, SBRA.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, thank you.**  **8 Emanuel Levy, okay.**  **9 Let's now hear who are audience**  **10 public participants.**  **11 MR. MENDLEN: Rick Mendlen, HUD.**  **12 MS. HOFFMAN: Anyone on the line who**  **13 is from the public?**  **14 Okay, so we have got a busy day.**  **15 Eileen Hoffman again from FMCS. I am one of**  **16 your co-facilitators. And basically, first we**  **17 will just see if there are any housekeeping**  **18 comments.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I have just a**  **20 couple. One of them, I just ask you to be**  **21 careful with the cords. There is quite a few**  **22 of them that are around the table there. So,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 make sure you don't trip over any of those.**  **2 We were asked that if you could**  **3 provide, Debby, the lady that was at the door**  **4 making sure that we could all get in, if you**  **5 could provide her a card, she likes to keep**  **6 record of everyone that was here.**  **7 And then make sure that you state**  **8 your name for Cameron, our court reporter, for**  **9 today before you make any comments.**  **10 And folks that are online, if you**  **11 could please just mute your phones until you**  **12 want to say something just to help minimize**  **13 any potential feedback.**  **14 Okay, those are the housekeeping.**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, great. Any**  **16 opening remarks from any of the Working Group**  **17 members?**  **18 MR. LEVY: This is Emanuel. Your**  **19 signal is going in and out. I am just**  **20 wondering if it is me or other people on the**  **21 line that are having the same difficulty.**  **22 MR. MENDLEN: This is Rick. I am** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 having the same issue.**  **2 MR. HANGER: This is Rob. I'm only**  **3 experiencing when Javier is talking. There is**  **4 some static associated with his signal. But**  **5 others that are speaking, I don't have the**  **6 same.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, we are going to**  **8 check the connections here because we are all**  **9 squeaking. And I will just make sure that I**  **10 speak up with I talk. Was that any better?**  **11 MR. LEVY: That's static free for**  **12 me.**  **13 MR. LUTER: That's better.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. All right,**  **15 thanks.**  **16 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, so everyone,**  **17 hopefully, can hear us and hear themselves.**  **18 Yes, John Caskey?**  **19 MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey at**  **20 NEMA and also the ASRAC representative. Can**  **21 you hear me okay on the phone?**  **22 MR. LEVY: Yes.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. MENDLEN: Yes.**  **2 MR. CASKEY: Okay, I just wanted to**  **3 give a quick update. One piece of information**  **4 is that at the last meeting that I attended,**  **5 basically I think the Working Group concluded**  **6 that they weren't going to get all the work**  **7 done on the original schedule of October**  **8 first, which is today. So, I had filed with**  **9 the ASRAC, the other ASRAC members to get**  **10 basically an extension until November 1. So,**  **11 we did that, I think, earlier this week and we**  **12 did get that extension for your work, final**  **13 recommendations to be due by November 1. So,**  **14 there was unanimity in the ASRAC members to**  **15 grant you that extension.**  **16 But, at the same time, still some**  **17 concern relative to trying to get things**  **18 wrapped up. I mean so you have these two day**  **19 meetings. You have it penciled in for Denver**  **20 in mid-October, I think like the 23rd and 24th**  **21 but November 1 is still a month away,**  **22 essentially.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, in preparation for today's**  **2 meeting, I looked through some of the analysis**  **3 that is done and there is a huge amount of**  **4 analysis done. I think it is all very good.**  **5 I think you are getting a lot of good**  **6 information that, otherwise, wouldn't have**  **7 been collected and assessed without doing the**  **8 negotiated rulemaking. But at the same time,**  **9 I went through my notes from our first**  **10 meeting, talking about the Department of**  **11 Energy ground rules relative to the negotiated**  **12 rulemaking and then also, the proposed**  **13 framework for developing term sheets and some**  **14 other information that was provided there.**  **15 So, from my perspective, it seems**  **16 like you have been given what you need to do**  **17 sort of on a silver platter here in terms of**  **18 the proposed framework for developing the term**  **19 sheet and some other guidelines. So,**  **20 basically I think we are in sort of the 11th**  **21 hour and you need to start putting sort of pen**  **22 to paper in order to figure out exactly what** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you do want in the term sheet and, hopefully,**  **2 what you want above and beyond the status quo,**  **3 as we know of it today.**  **4 So, anyway, I urge you to work, do**  **5 the best you can over the next few days. I am**  **6 going to be in and out a little bit but if I**  **7 can be of any help, let me know. But**  **8 otherwise, again, I urge you and sort of**  **9 challenge you to try and get some rough ideas**  **10 out even today or early tomorrow that you can**  **11 start working on that you would consider,**  **12 essentially, a draft that we could turn over**  **13 to DOE for them to do their massaging to**  **14 actually turn it into a rulemaking document.**  **15 So, I don't know if Joseph has**  **16 anything more to add to what I have said. But**  **17 again, it is a golden opportunity for you to**  **18 really lead the industry and lead the**  **19 manufactured housing energy efficiency**  **20 requirements. I urge you to roll up your**  **21 sleeves and get the job done.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: So, this is Joe** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Hagerman, DOE. I will second those comments**  **2 and just say I have been seeing a lot of back**  **3 and forth with all the analysis and the**  **4 discussion. I think we are going to have an**  **5 incredibly productive two days. I think that**  **6 we will get, hopefully we will get 85, 90**  **7 percent of the way over the next two days.**  **8 And then we will talk about the three weeks**  **9 in-between and see if we need Denver or not.**  **10 But I am encouraged. I think this**  **11 group, we have come a long ways. It seems**  **12 every time we get asked to do an analysis,**  **13 when we run the analysis, it only moves to the**  **14 second decimal place on the annual energy**  **15 savings. So, that means, I think that means**  **16 to everybody that we have kind of hit the**  **17 sweet spot. Right? And we should just settle**  **18 on that and codify the sweet spot and write**  **19 the term sheet. But I agree with your**  **20 comments that I don't think we could have**  **21 gotten to this level of detail without this**  **22 consensus group and these meetings. This has** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 been extremely productive for the Department**  **2 and, I hope, for the industry as a whole.**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, and we, as**  **4 facilitators, want to compliment the hard work**  **5 of all of the members. You have taken your**  **6 job very seriously and, hopefully, you will**  **7 have a successful outcome.**  **8 Are there any other comments before**  **9 we get started?**  **10 Okay, then the next order of**  **11 business and the agenda is on the board behind**  **12 you and also online on the computer, we will**  **13 hear from Manny Santana on the 2015 IECC**  **14 scope.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, and Manny, before**  **16 I have you pick up where we left off last**  **17 time, let me review the entire agenda, and**  **18 then we will come back.**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: So, we are going to**  **21 have Manny -- if you remember, we fell a**  **22 little short being able to get through the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 entire list to get put together. And if there**  **2 is any updates, that would be great.**  **3 So, we are dealing with that. Then,**  **4 we are going to ask Matthew to run through,**  **5 briefly, the latest LCC scenario that he ran**  **6 and make sure that we understand that. And I**  **7 believe that was some of the information that**  **8 Emanuel had used to draft the straw man that**  **9 he is going to walk through.**  **10 I am hoping that, kind of to Joe's**  **11 point and John's, is that let's assume that**  **12 what Emanuel is presenting is acceptable.**  **13 Right? And let me finish this thought here.**  **14 That it is acceptable and where is the harper**  **15 with the document. Where are the points that**  **16 you think that we need to address and let's**  **17 try to focus our attention on those specific**  **18 areas, instead of trying to tear apart the**  **19 whole document and analyze the entire**  **20 document. Let's find those areas where there**  **21 is harper and have discussion on that.**  **22 I'm assuming that we might take the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 rest of the day looking through that and**  **2 seeing if we can't reach some type of**  **3 consensus. And if not, then we have tomorrow**  **4 set aside to continue that discussion, as well**  **5 as any subcommittee reports.**  **6 We also want to see if we can take**  **7 some action items on the climate zones, the**  **8 compliance pass, if needed, and any other**  **9 items that we can finalize.**  **10 So, is there any question, as far as**  **11 what we have put together for the agenda?**  **12 Okay, then Manny, are you prepared**  **13 to finish walking us through your document?**  **14 We only had a little bit left, unless you made**  **15 some revisions.**  **16 MR. SANTANA: I don't have any**  **17 additions but the few items that are left are**  **18 the ones that we didn't come to a consensus**  **19 on.**  **20 This is Manny with Cavco, by the**  **21 way. I apologize.**  **22 So, what I recall is that we left** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 off on Table 402.4.1.1.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, let's give**  **3 everyone a second to find that document, if**  **4 they need to.**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: Here are some copies**  **6 from last week.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Does anyone need one?**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: I have an extra copy**  **9 of the IECC, if somebody wants to look on.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Does anybody else need**  **11 a book?**  **12 Okay, Manny, I think we are good.**  **13 MR. SANTANA: Okay, now just to**  **14 recap, we got through all the way to the rim**  **15 joists. So, if you can scroll down a little**  **16 bit. Right there.**  **17 So, we skipped the floor. We went**  **18 through the crawlspace and we got through the**  **19 plumbing and the wiring. So, now we are back**  **20 at the floor.**  **21 So, the thing about the floor, the**  **22 floor, the criteria column is the addition of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the sentence at the bottom where they serve as**  **2 an air barrier. And that is where we left**  **3 off.**  **4 And the issue that circulates around**  **5 this is due to the fact that manufactured**  **6 homes have a different type of construction**  **7 when it comes to the floor that you don't see**  **8 in stick-built with the bottom board, which is**  **9 a sheet that manufacturers have in-between the**  **10 floor joists and insulation and the frame**  **11 below. And so that is unique to manufactured**  **12 housing. And because of that, the definition**  **13 of an air barrier at the floor interface is**  **14 not the same between MH and stick-built.**  **15 And the committee thought that**  **16 because of that, the way that the air barrier**  **17 is considered at the floor should be**  **18 different.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Are there any**  **20 questions on that one?**  **21 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **22 Lubliner.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, we hear**  **2 you Mike.**  **3 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I guess this is**  **4 where we disagree. My feeling is that the**  **5 bottom board, if it is being considered the**  **6 air barrier, it may be providing some air**  **7 resistance but the primary air barrier in**  **8 manufactured homes is the floor. And that is**  **9 why we caulk the penetrations in the floor.**  **10 And the floor can be relied on as a**  **11 pressure barrier. And if you don't rely on**  **12 the floor as a pressure barrier, my experience**  **13 is that the bottom board, over the life of the**  **14 home, will be compromised in a way that it**  **15 will not provide the pressure resistance**  **16 necessary.**  **17 And so, I don't understand why some**  **18 of the people on the committee that are saying**  **19 that the bottom board is the pressure barrier**  **20 and others on the committee are saying it is**  **21 the floor. But my feeling is is the floor and**  **22 that is the way have designed things. I think** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I sent a quality assurance manual out for**  **2 manufactured housing that shows air sealing,**  **3 all the penetrations in the floor. We talked**  **4 about air sealing penetrations in the floor.**  **5 And again, if we are sealing the floor, then**  **6 why isn't that the primary barrier?**  **7 I don't see a difference between**  **8 site-built homes here and manufactured homes.**  **9 They both have insulation in the floor. The**  **10 belly blanket is there for a rodent barrier.**  **11 And it is true that there is some gap, there**  **12 is a little void between the underside of the**  **13 decking and the belly insulation. And that is**  **14 acceptable, as long as the rim joist has been**  **15 insulated to the I-beam and packed with**  **16 insulation, as some of the details I have sent**  **17 note.**  **18 So, my feeling is it is going to be**  **19 hard to get through this one because we**  **20 disagree, fundamentally, I believe, on what**  **21 the bottom board is serving as. I believe it**  **22 is the pressure boundaries, the floor, and the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 bottom board is the rodent barrier.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Richard?**  **3 MR. POTTS: Richard Potts. So, we**  **4 talked about this at the last meeting quite a**  **5 bit. So, can we get a chance to maybe**  **6 rebuttal and if not, do a temperature test or**  **7 just vote on it, just to move ahead?**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Sure.**  **9 MR. POTTS: Like Mike said, I don't**  **10 think people's views are going to change or**  **11 one side is going to convince the other that**  **12 -- I mean maybe there is some people stuck in**  **13 the middle but I think a lot of people have**  **14 made up their minds as far as what they feel**  **15 that barrier is.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: David?**  **17 MR. TOMPOS: Yes, I agree. I think**  **18 the last time we talked about sealing of the**  **19 floor, and if we go through those prescriptive**  **20 methods that we, I think, already agreed to,**  **21 the floor is going to be the pressure. You**  **22 know we are also going to have this additional** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 bottom board that is, in addition, going to be**  **2 also helpful. But the primary air barrier --**  **3 you know I don't even know if we need this**  **4 section here because we already addressed it**  **5 in the prescriptive sealing requirements.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, which section**  **7 are you --**  **8 MR. TOMPOS: The floor line here,**  **9 this whole --**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.**  **11 Luby, would it help if -- I am kind of**  **12 remembering things like David. I think that**  **13 we already said that the floor, all the**  **14 penetrations in the floor are going to be**  **15 sealed in the air sealing stuff that we talked**  **16 about.**  **17 Would it be suitable for you, and**  **18 here is just a straw man here, if we reiterate**  **19 in this section that the floor is sealed,**  **20 period, and then just say the air barrier**  **21 shall be installed at any exposed edge of**  **22 insulation, period?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, just kind of call back to the**  **2 proper sealing techniques that we have on the**  **3 floor system, just to reiterate them here?**  **4 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, so I would**  **5 suggest the way it should be the floor is the**  **6 primary pressure barrier. The belly board or**  **7 rodent barrier is a secondary pressure barrier**  **8 that cannot be relied on as the primary**  **9 pressure barrier.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman,**  **11 DOE. I think he is saying that the floor is**  **12 the primary -- I would say a properly sealed**  **13 floor is the primary pressure barrier.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: And then Lowell?**  **15 MR. UNGAR: Yes, can I ask what is**  **16 the practical difference this makes? This**  **17 seems to have deleted all criteria from this.**  **18 Given that we have a separate requirement on**  **19 sealing of the floor, it is not clear to me**  **20 what the effect is of declaring the air**  **21 barrier.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, do you have a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 response to that one?**  **2 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, so you know**  **3 where you are supposed to be sealing. The**  **4 primary air barrier is what it is you are**  **5 supposed to be sealing.**  **6 So, that is why I say the belly may**  **7 serve as an air barrier but the primary air**  **8 barrier is the sealed floor. And you can**  **9 reference the penetrations that should be**  **10 sealed in somewhere else but it is already**  **11 provided prescriptively by Emanuel Levy.**  **12 Anyway, but my feeling is we can**  **13 either add something about the floor as the**  **14 primary and note that the belly may serve as**  **15 an additional air barrier. I am comfortable**  **16 with that but that is about as comfortable as**  **17 I am, given my adamant feeling about this, in**  **18 terms of building science.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Manny, --**  **20 MR. LUBLINER: Isn't the primary --**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Manny or --**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: I'm going to shut up.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: -- what do you think**  **2 of that?**  **3 MR. SANTANA: Manny here with Cavco.**  **4 You know I know that it was just last week,**  **5 but I've already forgotten. Now, didn't we**  **6 agree last week that we were going to seal all**  **7 penetrations along the floor? I agree with**  **8 Lowell, that we might be getting -- I think**  **9 any language here might just complicate the**  **10 issue. You know, I don't know if Navigant or**  **11 if Matthew has the ability to pull up the**  **12 document from last week, but there are details**  **13 there that I would like to pull up on the**  **14 screen. And I think that will illustrate to**  **15 everybody that the potential issue involved in**  **16 identifying what is the air barrier, primary**  **17 air barrier, secondary air barrier and so on.**  **18 Can you look at the last page?**  **19 So, if you go to the last page and**  **20 you see the detail on the bottom, there is**  **21 Figure 4.8. And you see the squiggly lines is**  **22 the insulation. This is how a typical floor** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 is built. And so there is a sheet that goes,**  **2 that follows the line of the insulation**  **3 underneath the floor. So, you are going to**  **4 have a problem if you seal the floor and you**  **5 don't seal the bottom board. Because if air**  **6 can get into the bottom board and get on top**  **7 over the insulation, then the insulation is no**  **8 good, even if the floor is sealed.**  **9 So, there is an issue with not**  **10 sealing the bottom board and there is an issue**  **11 with not sealing the floor.**  **12 So, rather than getting into**  **13 primary, secondary, rather than getting into**  **14 even identify what the air barrier is at the**  **15 floor, we have already decided or we have**  **16 already agreed to seal penetration in the**  **17 floor. Why don't we just pull back a little**  **18 bit and look at it from a more general**  **19 perspective and say at the floor, penetrations**  **20 at the floor should be sealed? And then just**  **21 leave it.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: So, you are saying** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that we can modify that. What do you think of**  **2 that, Michael?**  **3 MR. LUBLINER: I think that the**  **4 reason that we are caulking the floor is**  **5 because it is the primary air barrier and we**  **6 don't need to talk about the belly at all. We**  **7 can just say the floor is the primary air**  **8 barrier and that all the penetrations that we**  **9 reference need to be sealed. That is my**  **10 feeling.**  **11 As far as the insulation in the**  **12 floor, there was some information sent out**  **13 that showed that if the floor is, in**  **14 effective, that little hole area between the**  **15 I-beams where the insulation doesn't come in**  **16 full contact with the decking, as you can see**  **17 there, that is okay. And so, that is what is**  **18 happening now and is okay. And when we**  **19 insulate the floor to a higher level, we are**  **20 going to end up dense packing between the I**  **21 beam and the rim and it is going to limit the**  **22 air infiltration that Manny was talking about.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Again, all they are doing with this**  **2 belly board is stapling it to the rim joists.**  **3 So, there is no way that -- I mean if air**  **4 wants to get it, the air is going to get in**  **5 through the rim joist. The more insulation up**  **6 there, the more it is going to limit that air**  **7 that is getting in through these staples in**  **8 the rim joists from impacting the temperature**  **9 in that belly space.**  **10 So, I don't know. It is true that**  **11 is an issue. It is an issue now. It is going**  **12 to be an issue in the future, which is why I**  **13 explicitly suggested that the area between the**  **14 I-beams, the insulation goes down under the**  **15 truss and doesn't need to -- it can be**  **16 exempted from being in full contact with the**  **17 floor because you have a good air barrier in**  **18 the floor and you have a reasonable secondary**  **19 air barrier with the insulation and the belly**  **20 blanket and the packed insulation in the**  **21 joists.**  **22 So, again, if we are going to be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 sealing the floor, then that is going to be**  **2 the primary air barrier.**  **3 So, I guess, at this point, that is**  **4 how I feel. I can vote negative on it, if**  **5 others feel -- or we can just move on and**  **6 leave this as one for DOE to look into is my**  **7 feeling.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: The problem is --**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: So, Luby, again, I**  **10 think Manny gave us a suggestion that, and**  **11 everybody in the room was kind of nodding**  **12 their heads yes, that we just have the**  **13 language that penetrations at the floor should**  **14 be sealed and maybe a friendly amendment to**  **15 use a parenthesis that says penetrations at**  **16 the floor should be sealed as the floor**  **17 becomes the primary air barrier -- sorry --**  **18 pressure barrier. And then it seems like we**  **19 might have closure on that.**  **20 MR. WADE: Joe, can you hear me?**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes.**  **22 MR. WADE: This is Michael Wade with** 

### Page 29

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Cavalier. I wanted to add one more comment**  **2 that may be of value to the manufacturers and**  **3 this, actually, is in support of Mike's**  **4 argument there.**  **5 You know, historically, we as**  **6 manufacturers typically in our design packages**  **7 or basket manuals, as we fondly call them, we**  **8 a lot of times have had notations that**  **9 actually would allow either the bottom board**  **10 or the floor to be the pressure envelope.**  **11 However, as the industry has historically used**  **12 the bottom board, it has kind of left us**  **13 subjective over our kind of open, susceptible,**  **14 however you want to put it to easy write-ups**  **15 by the EPF, of state IBPS, whoever, when we**  **16 have little cuts or tears in the bottom**  **17 boards, which Luby is pretty accurate on, it**  **18 is inevitably going to happen.**  **19 So, maybe a positive for us in the**  **20 industry if we do view the floor as the**  **21 pressure envelope and declare that in our**  **22 design packages, then we do have a cut or tear** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 in the bottom board, then that, in essence,**  **2 would no longer be a write-up. So, that is**  **3 something to consider.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: David?**  **5 MR. TOMPOS: Michael, I don't think**  **6 that is going to get you out of a write-up.**  **7 You are still going to have rodent protection**  **8 that you will have to deal with. So, I am**  **9 still going to write you up when you tear your**  **10 bottom board.**  **11 (Laughter.)**  **12 MR. WADE: We always can count on**  **13 you, David.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: So, one question I**  **15 have -- sorry. Is someone on the line?**  **16 MS. DICKENS: This is Ishbel. I**  **17 just wanted to, before you take the vote,**  **18 should the "should" be "shall?"**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: So, do we strike**  **20 number one and the opening paragraph and is it**  **21 just number two or do we need that opening**  **22 sentence as well?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LUTER: This is Rob. Well, you**  **2 have stricken it now but I have been wondering**  **3 what the relevance of that opening sentence**  **4 was.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, I'm going to**  **6 hold you on that because it looks like we are**  **7 going to strike that.**  **8 MR. LUTER: Okay.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: So, it may be**  **10 irrelevant.**  **11 So, let me see a show of thumbs if**  **12 everyone is okay with number two.**  **13 MR. UNGAR: I realize this is picky**  **14 but air barrier is a defined term in IECC and**  **15 I don't think pressure barrier is. Is air**  **16 barrier or pressure barrier the right term?**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, if we want to**  **18 use pressure barrier, we can get Navigant to**  **19 define pressure barrier.**  **20 MR. UNGAR: And it is not critical.**  **21 I'm just saying they are different and I am**  **22 just asking.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: It seems like**  **2 Michael's made them different in his**  **3 explanation of the two different layers.**  **4 MR. UNGAR: Okay, I withdraw if that**  **5 is the case.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: So, let me see a show**  **7 of thumbs if you are okay with number two.**  **8 Can you read that for us?**  **9 MR. BANTLE: Yes. Number two --**  **10 this is Ted Bantle -- penetrations at the**  **11 floor shall be sealed. And then in**  **12 parentheses, as the floor becomes the primary**  **13 pressure barrier, end parentheses.**  **14 MR. KESSLER: This is Bert, Palm**  **15 Harbor.**  **16 MR. BANTLE: Yes, Bert?**  **17 MR. KESSLER: Yes, I would like to**  **18 make one recommendation and change the term**  **19 floor perhaps to floor decking. Because when**  **20 I see the term floor, to me, that means all**  **21 the framing and the decking, whatever is part**  **22 of that component.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LUBLINER: Michael Lubliner**  **2 agrees with Bert.**  **3 MR. KESSLER: No! Really?**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. I**  **5 think you should say penetrations through the**  **6 floor decking shall be sealed, parentheses, as**  **7 the floor becomes the primary pressure**  **8 barrier, end parentheses, period.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: And then we can vote**  **10 on it. Because I think this issue took us an**  **11 hour last time and we didn't closure to it.**  **12 It has taken 15 minutes here, let's just be**  **13 done with it.**  **14 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **15 MR. SANTANA: I think that --**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second**  **17 Manny.**  **18 MR. SANTANA: Okay.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry. Okay, go**  **20 ahead, Manny.**  **21 MR. SANTANA: The parentheses, it**  **22 doesn't add anything to the statement and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 introduces a new term that we don't currently**  **2 have. I think we can do without it.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: David?**  **4 MR. LUBLINER: I'm going to agree**  **5 with Manny but for a little different reason.**  **6 I think it modifies the first portion of the**  **7 sentence and implies that penetration shall**  **8 only be sealed as the floor becomes the**  **9 primary pressure barrier. And I think our**  **10 conversation has been one where we don't have**  **11 any choice. The floor is the primary pressure**  **12 barrier.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: David?**  **14 MR. TOMPOS: There is a definition**  **15 in the --**  **16 MR. LUBLINER: It is a grammatical**  **17 issue.**  **18 MR. TOMPOS: -- 3280 for pressure**  **19 envelope. It says pressure envelope means the**  **20 primary air barrier surrounding the living**  **21 space that serves to limit air leakage. So,**  **22 I don't know if we want to call it -- I know** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we keep saying pressure barrier but that code**  **2 does call it a pressure envelope.**  **3 MR. LEVY: Right but doesn't exist**  **4 in the IECC currently.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: You say it does or it**  **6 does not?**  **7 Let me get Mark Weiss. Hold on a**  **8 second, Michael. Go ahead.**  **9 MR. WEISS: Just a general point**  **10 that makes it obvious. To the maximum extent**  **11 possible, we should have consistency with what**  **12 we are doing. The part already defines that**  **13 that has been the existing practice. We**  **14 should continue to follow that definition and**  **15 not start modifying it, if at all possible.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael?**  **17 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I referenced**  **18 this definition 3280.502 and it defines**  **19 pressure envelope. And when reading this,**  **20 that is how I conclude that it is the floor**  **21 that is the pressure envelope.**  **22 And so I think that we are talking** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 about the I Code but I think the definition in**  **2 the HUD Code of the pressure envelope is a**  **3 relevant one and is referencing the floor.**  **4 MR. WEISS: It is not only relevant,**  **5 it is binding right now.**  **6 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I believe there**  **7 could be things that could be changed but this**  **8 one I don't think we want to change because it**  **9 is correct, in my opinion. It references**  **10 correctly the pressure envelope definition,**  **11 which is why are doing the floor.**  **12 But I think we are getting the round**  **13 and round on this one. I don't know if I am**  **14 going to change on this or others that are.**  **15 We might want to just hold it and move on. I**  **16 don't know that it drives a lot of stuff, if**  **17 we have agreed already to sealing all those**  **18 points in the floor.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: So, I think everybody**  **20 agrees. I think we are comfortable giving a**  **21 thumbs, I mean with taking a vote here. And**  **22 I would say the only reason I added the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 parentheses was to kind of get Michael**  **2 comfortable with us recognizing the primary**  **3 pressure barrier, which is now the primary**  **4 pressure envelope.**  **5 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I am**  **6 comfortable.**  **7 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey. Do we**  **8 want to change that word where it says**  **9 pressure barrier?**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: I think you want to**  **11 change that to pressure envelope.**  **12 MS. HOFFMAN: So you want to read it**  **13 again and make sure it is --**  **14 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so we are going**  **16 to, as soon as Ted is done with this last**  **17 edit, then we will read it and then check for**  **18 consensus.**  **19 Ted, would you mind reading that for**  **20 us?**  **21 MR. BANTLE: Penetrations through**  **22 the floor decking shall be sealed as the floor** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 becomes the primary pressure envelope. And**  **2 then we just reference the code. I don't know**  **3 if that would be included or not.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: You just referenced**  **5 the 3280.502 as the definition of the pressure**  **6 envelope.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, just a**  **8 procedural thing. Cameron, are you good?**  **9 COURT REPORTER: Could I just remind**  **10 the people who are speaking online to**  **11 introduce themselves before they speak? I am**  **12 having trouble tracking who is who.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Cameron is not**  **14 familiar with all of our voices yet.**  **15 Mark?**  **16 MR. WEISS: Just a question for**  **17 clarification for the technical folks, I**  **18 guess. If you are going to say primary**  **19 pressure envelope, is there some other**  **20 pressure envelope that we are going to be**  **21 identifying? So, why say primary? Primary**  **22 implies there is something that is secondary.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: I think that was the**  **2 definition. I think that is how it is**  **3 defined.**  **4 MR. WEISS: And I there is further**  **5 explanation in IECC, that's fine.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: David is checking**  **7 right now.**  **8 MR. TOMPOS: It is not in the IECC.**  **9 I would recommend that we just strike it.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Strike primary?**  **11 MR. TOMPOS: Yes.**  **12 MR. UNGAR: The definition of**  **13 pressure envelope says primary air barrier.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: It is just redundant.**  **15 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **16 Lubliner. It is redundant.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great. All**  **18 right, so let's see a show of thumbs if we are**  **19 okay with what is up on the screen there for**  **20 number two. Any thumbs down online? Okay,**  **21 then we have unanimous consensus on that one.**  **22 Okay, yes, Manny.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Manny, go on.**  **2 MR. SANTANA: Okay, Manny with**  **3 Cavco. So, over to the right on that same row**  **4 on the floor, over the right, that insulation**  **5 installation criterion, the subcommittee**  **6 recommended striking the entire section. It**  **7 had to do with the insulation being in contact**  **8 with the decking. And the reason for the**  **9 strikethrough is if you can see from the chart**  **10 that was up there previously, current**  **11 insulation installation practice of the floor**  **12 doesn't always have insulation in contact with**  **13 underside of the decking in the belly area.**  **14 And even if you put insulation**  **15 there, you are always going to have insulation**  **16 that follow the contours of the belly board**  **17 and comes underneath the decking. So, unless**  **18 you want to prohibit that, in almost every**  **19 case, you are almost never going to have all**  **20 the insulation up in contact with decking.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, any questions on**  **22 that recommendation?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 MR. LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner. **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael? 3 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I think that**  **4 what we want to do is we want to exempt the 5 requirement for underside contact with the**  **6 insulation with the subfloor decking between 7 the I-beams. But I think it is crucial that**  **8 we have underfloor contact from the I-beam to 9 the rim joists. And I sent off the quality**  **10 assurance manuals that we use that have 11 section drawings that explicitly detail all**  **12 those out with different floor insulation 13 systems. But you have to have the rim joists**  **14 full, at least the floor joists full from the 15 rim to the I-beam is doable with the**  **16 insulation levels we are talking about. You 17 can pack that. That will also help limit the**  **18 air infiltration concern that was expressed 19 because the air goes through the nails if it**  **20 is packed up to all the belly board and could 21 go right through that gap, if there is a gap**  **22 from the joists to the I-beam and then really**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 screw up the insulation performance, which we**  **2 want to avoid.**  **3 So, I am suggesting this is okay if**  **4 it is only limited to the space between the I**  **5 beams, I am okay with this language.**  **6 So, you can do it by leaving the**  **7 language the way it is and say exception,**  **8 insulation installed between the I-beams and**  **9 under the crossover duct.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: David?**  **11 MR. TOMPOS: Well, first of all, I**  **12 don't think there is any way with the amount**  **13 of insulation that we are putting in that we**  **14 are not going to be in contact. But my**  **15 question for Michael would be, are you**  **16 suggesting that we -- how are we going to**  **17 handle perimeter ducts? Because typically**  **18 that insulation is under the duct and not in**  **19 contact with the floor decking.**  **20 You mentioned the crossover duct.**  **21 But we also have been using other perimeter**  **22 ducts that go out into that outrigger section.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, we need to address that.**  **2 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **3 Lubliner.**  **4 Yes, I think that the exception, it**  **5 is wherever you have -- if you have those**  **6 perimeter ducts, you are going to have**  **7 compression of the insulation there. And you**  **8 are right, you may not have the coverage right**  **9 underneath the decking for directly over the**  **10 ducts. And I think that is just part of that**  **11 insulation compression analysis that you have**  **12 to do for the floor. And I am okay with that,**  **13 obviously, not being in contact for that.**  **14 So, that could be another exception,**  **15 insulation between the crossover duct and I**  **16 beam and insulation displaced by --**  **17 MR. TOMPOS: Ductwork.**  **18 MR. LUBLINER: What do you call it?**  **19 Yes, by ductwork. Does that work for you,**  **20 Dave?**  **21 (Simultaneously speaking.)**  **22 MR. TOMPOS: I think that will work,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 unless there is any other manufacturer that**  **2 foresee another concern or issue that I am not**  **3 thinking of.**  **4 MR. KESSLER: Well, this is Bert,**  **5 Palm Harbor.**  **6 If we want to list all of the**  **7 exceptions, we had better add plumbing to it**  **8 as well.**  **9 MR. TOMPOS: You know I am wondering**  **10 if we really are -- if these even needs to be**  **11 addressed. You know we are talking about a**  **12 five and a half-inch space. And I don't think**  **13 we are talking, I would have to look at the**  **14 last numbers, but are we looking anywhere at**  **15 anything less than an R-22? I mean we are**  **16 fully packing this to the point where I don't**  **17 think we are going to have -- I don't think we**  **18 are going to be able to not be in contact with**  **19 the floor.**  **20 So, my question is, are we making an**  **21 issue that maybe not be really an issue?**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Lubliner. To the extent if you are adapting**  **2 it, I certainly have a question about it. I**  **3 think that Bert is right, plumbing could also**  **4 fall into getting in the way of the coverage.**  **5 But I can't think of anything really other**  **6 than the ductwork and the plumbing that would.**  **7 So, I am comfortable with the exceptions here**  **8 and I think it does make it more explicit so**  **9 that there is no question between the quality**  **10 assurance folks on what is exempt and what is**  **11 not when it comes to floor coverage.**  **12 So, I am okay with it. I think it**  **13 helps provide more specificity to the quality**  **14 assurance plan.**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.**  **16 So, I think we are un-striking the first part**  **17 of the sentence. Is that correct?**  **18 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.**  **19 Before we do that, I would like to see what it**  **20 looks like on the existing suggestion without**  **21 the exception.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 The problem is we have, it seems like we would**  **2 need some criteria for the floor insulation**  **3 installation. Right? It seems like you would**  **4 have to -- where you have this table, it seems**  **5 like all the cells should be filled out,**  **6 unless we have just deleted a whole entire**  **7 row. Right?**  **8 Also, we don't have any criterial**  **9 for the insulation of the floor installation.**  **10 That's a mouthful.**  **11 MR. UNGAR: This is Lowell. I would**  **12 just add it looks to me like we currently have**  **13 down to R13 for the floors in some regions.**  **14 So, in answer to your question, yes, I do**  **15 think we have much less than R22 in some**  **16 areas.**  **17 MR. TOMPOS: That still would be --**  **18 MR. SANTANA: You know I agree but I**  **19 think that the insulation criteria should be**  **20 similar to walls so that there is no voids in**  **21 the floor.**  **22 And really the only thing that I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 think was an issue in the floor section was**  **2 the requirement that the insulation be in**  **3 contact with the decking. That is the only**  **4 item that derailed the train, so to speak.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: And so, Manny, what**  **6 concerns would you have in having that**  **7 language in there?**  **8 MR. SANTANA: Well, you know the**  **9 language that was in the IECC currently didn't**  **10 really talk about anything other than contact**  **11 with the decking, as you can see.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. Joe Hagerman,**  **13 DOE. So if we just kept the first part of**  **14 that struck out sentence that said floor**  **15 framing cavity insulation shall be installed**  **16 to maintain permanent contact with the**  **17 underside of the floor decking -- subfloor**  **18 decking with the following exceptions, which**  **19 is insulation between the crossover duct,**  **20 comma, I believe comma, the chassis girder**  **21 beam, comma, and insulation displaced by**  **22 ductwork and plumbing.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. SANTANA: You know okay, so I**  **2 would edit that a little bit. Rather than --**  **3 this section here for floors was really the**  **4 only concern was contact with the decking,**  **5 when I think the concern should be insulating**  **6 every cavity in the floor. You know, so**  **7 rather than saying floor trimming, cavity**  **8 insulation. So, how about floor trimming**  **9 cavity shall be fully insulated and void of**  **10 voids with the exception of and then you have**  **11 the exception there.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.**  **13 MR. SANTANA: Because as they have**  **14 said it, the insulation, you know these floors**  **15 are typically built with two by sixes or two**  **16 by eights when the floors get bigger. With**  **17 the insulation that we are calling out, they**  **18 are going to be jam-packed outboard of the I**  **19 beams. So, I don't think that is a concern.**  **20 And I think it is almost a secondary**  **21 requirement to say everything is going to be**  **22 in contact with the decking when what you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 really want is to have every cavity insulated.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark?**  **3 MR. KESSLER: This is Bert, Palm**  **4 Harbor.**  **5 Mike Lubliner, your concern for that**  **6 area outside the I-beams to be completely**  **7 filled is so that the rim joist is completely**  **8 insulated?**  **9 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, that is one of**  **10 the requirements that you get the rim joists**  **11 completely insulated. When we go on quality**  **12 assurance checks in the factory, you are**  **13 walking around at the floors and if you see an**  **14 exposed rim joist, you know they haven't done**  **15 the floor insulation correctly. It needs to**  **16 cover that.**  **17 And as has been noted is if you have**  **18 a two by six or a two by eight, you are going**  **19 to adjust the belly insulation relative to**  **20 that floor insulation and you are going to run**  **21 a bat insulation or blown insulation in the**  **22 floor so you can then pack that space from the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I-beam to the rim joist. And so there is full**  **2 coverage at the decking there.**  **3 And the exception that I am talking**  **4 about comes at the I-beam to the next I-beam,**  **5 where we are not asking you to fill the whole**  **6 belly, we are just wanting to make sure that**  **7 the insulation is allowed to not be in contact**  **8 with the underfloor of the decking in that**  **9 area.**  **10 I don't know if that answered your**  **11 question. I am comfortable with the language**  **12 that is being proposed here.**  **13 MR. KESSLER: Well, the only reason**  **14 I brought it up because I think it is pretty**  **15 common practice to treat the exposed vertical**  **16 area of the rim rail as if it were a wall.**  **17 And I know we have in our package a**  **18 requirement that if the floor insulation is**  **19 not as deep as the floor framing itself, and**  **20 you install it back around your rim rail with**  **21 the same R value as what is in the wall.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. WEISS: This is a different**  **2 point. So, if there is any further**  **3 conversation that you want to finish out.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, are you good**  **5 with that?**  **6 MR. LUBLINER: Yes. I mean if you**  **7 call it -- I call it the wall insulation on**  **8 the vertical. But what I am saying is is that**  **9 floor contact, the exception of floor contact**  **10 should only be allowed between the I-beams.**  **11 That is how we have been doing it for years.**  **12 We fill in the I-beam. If it is a two by six,**  **13 you can get up to R21 in there. If it is a**  **14 two by eight, you can get R25. And that is**  **15 what you do and you fill it. It goes across**  **16 the I-beam and down. Those drawings that we**  **17 set out, we want to the show those to the**  **18 group at some point. I think many of them**  **19 have probably seen our program drawings.**  **20 But I guess I am good with what the**  **21 language is here right now. And I would**  **22 interpret this as what I said.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. I want to**  **2 see because it seems like we are going in**  **3 circles, at least to me it does. It sounds**  **4 like we are okay. But David --**  **5 MR. TOMPOS: The more I look at it,**  **6 I am a little concerned that we aren't okay.**  **7 Now, we are changing it not just to be in**  **8 contact but we are saying that it has to be**  **9 fully insulated. So, let's say I have a wider**  **10 unit, a 16-wide and we are using two by eight**  **11 floor joists in the southern regions where I**  **12 may only require an R13, based on what Michael**  **13 is saying, we need to put an R25 in there.**  **14 So, we are doing a lot more here**  **15 than just saying that it needs to be in**  **16 contact with the floor decking. We are saying**  **17 it needs to be fully insulated.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: But if we just struck**  **19 out the word fully there. Of course it has to**  **20 be insulated per whatever your U value**  **21 calculation is. Right?**  **22 MR. TOMPOS: Right.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: It is just the word**  **2 fully there.**  **3 MR. TOMPOS: And then I have some**  **4 concerns on how do you maintain that contact**  **5 with that floor decking? I mean typically, it**  **6 is a blanket that is put in and then they cut**  **7 it so that it does fit up into those areas.**  **8 But gravity has a tendency to pull things**  **9 down.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark.**  **11 MR. WEISS: Well, David's comment**  **12 kind of leads into what I was going to talk**  **13 about. Mark Weiss MHARR.**  **14 My concern is with the word**  **15 permanent. Because if you fit this into**  **16 something that is a HUD's enforcement**  **17 mechanism, you have something called subpart**  **18 I that has no time limitations on it. And**  **19 permanent really could be permanent. I could**  **20 be 30 years down the road somebody comes in**  **21 and complains hey, this is not making contact,**  **22 whatever. You have to go through a whole** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 investigation as to what happened over the**  **2 last X number of years.**  **3 So, any indication of the word**  **4 permanent is of great concern.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: David.**  **6 MR. TOMPOS: I guess this is a**  **7 question for Michael. The purpose of being in**  **8 contact and you talked about dense packing,**  **9 the whole purpose here is to stop air flow.**  **10 And we also have other provisions that we**  **11 added in the sealing of the rim joists in the**  **12 floor, in the different contact areas that**  **13 should prevent any air movement in that area.**  **14 Are we being redundant here? If you**  **15 read the article that I sent out by Joe**  **16 Lstiburek, that basically explains that the**  **17 reason why the whole provision was put in in**  **18 the first place was because, in a typical**  **19 home, you have a crawlspace. There is nothing**  **20 to stop the air from circulating under those**  **21 floor cavities. In through that bat**  **22 insulation, you get a convection going on** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 there. But since we have the bottom board and**  **2 we are sealing the rim joists the way we are,**  **3 I am just wondering if we are trying to solve**  **4 a problem that may not be there. It may not**  **5 be as critical as some of the other provisions**  **6 that we have added.**  **7 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco. I**  **8 think that Mark and Dave have shared exactly**  **9 what I think the problem is with this thing is**  **10 we are going to introduce a mandatory**  **11 requirement into the standard that it could be**  **12 nearly impossible for us to verify. We can**  **13 verify at the plant when it was installed but**  **14 we would have to get through those compression**  **15 process and these homes sometimes travel a**  **16 thousand miles before they get to where they**  **17 get to.**  **18 And so as Mark pointed out, we have,**  **19 there is a penalty structure for the industry**  **20 that typically is currently and it is commonly**  **21 used. And for the benefit that you are going**  **22 to gain from having permanent contact with** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 decking, for a product that is wrapped in a**  **2 bag, which is different from say a**  **3 conventional stick-built, which is just it is**  **4 a raised floor on a crawlspace, I don't think**  **5 we get the benefit from it.**  **6 In addition to that, we have some**  **7 issues with the nomenclature trying to define**  **8 the exception as being in-between the I-beams.**  **9 You know the crossover duct is a good point of**  **10 reference because they can be anywhere. And**  **11 main chassis girder beam isn't a term that is**  **12 commonly used. So, we need to work on that**  **13 language as well.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Mark.**  **15 MR. WEISS: Yes, to raise a totally**  **16 self-serving point based on what I said last**  **17 week at the last meeting, the point I made**  **18 also shows the inevitable relationship between**  **19 what you put in a standard and enforcement**  **20 aspects of it. The enforcement costs will be**  **21 related to that standard. You know I was**  **22 trying to say last time, you can't separate** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Now, Manny, I**  **3 think I have heard two different things from**  **4 you. One of them is that adding this language**  **5 in here may create additional compliance issue**  **6 that may not be necessary and which I thought**  **7 you were leaning toward striking it but then**  **8 you also suggested clarifying some of the**  **9 verbiage.**  **10 MR. SANTANA: I can provide a**  **11 suggestion to the language, if you want to**  **12 hear it.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, please.**  **14 MR. SANTANA: So, I suggest the**  **15 language should read floor framing cavities**  **16 shall be insulated and then strike the**  **17 maintain permanent contact with the underside**  **18 of the subfloor decking. All floor framing**  **19 cavities shall be insulated. And then from to**  **20 to the decking, strike that, and then with the**  **21 following exceptions.**  **22 So, just strike from the word to to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 decking.**  **2 And then with the following**  **3 exceptions: insulation between the I-beams**  **4 and strike the crossover duct and strike the**  **5 main chassis girder beam and add insulation**  **6 between the I-beams on the single section.**  **7 MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo. Say**  **8 per section instead of saying on single**  **9 section.**  **10 MR. SANTANA: Okay. And the reason**  **11 for that is that we don't want somebody to**  **12 take an I-beam on one half and go to the I**  **13 beam on another half and say well this is the**  **14 area between the I-beams and we have to --**  **15 What this will do, this says, to**  **16 Joe's point earlier, it requires that cavities**  **17 be insulated. And to Mike's point, it only**  **18 allows it to not insulate the individual**  **19 cavity when you are in-between the I-beams,**  **20 which constitutes the barrier.**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: All right.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: How does that look to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 everyone? David.**  **2 MR. TOMPOS: Aren't we saying that**  **3 we don't have to insulate those? We are**  **4 insulating those cavities. We are saying our**  **5 exception is we don't have to insulate between**  **6 the I-beams but we are insulating between the**  **7 I-beams. We are putting a blanket in there.**  **8 We are just not --**  **9 MR. SANTANA: But not in the**  **10 cavities. So, unless you want to say all four**  **11 framing cavity bays. Because the difference**  **12 is the blanket insulation that insulates the**  **13 whole area and the insulation that insulates**  **14 in-between the framing members.**  **15 MR. LUTER: This is Rob at Lippert.**  **16 Could you use language that speaks to the**  **17 insulation being within the cavity as opposed**  **18 to over it? All four framing cavities shall**  **19 contain insulation with the following**  **20 exceptions and those exceptions would be those**  **21 where the insulation was outboard of the**  **22 cavity itself?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I don't know that that is the right**  **2 language but that is what I'm -- because to**  **3 Manny's point, you are not going to be able to**  **4 fill that center cavity if you have got a**  **5 blanket over the top of it.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: So, could you**  **7 highlight that second on, Ted? So, how does**  **8 that look to everyone, the one that is**  **9 highlighted? Can you read it, Ted?**  **10 MR. BANTLE: Let me just simplify**  **11 this a little.**  **12 Okay. All floor framing cavities**  **13 shall contain insulation with the following**  **14 exceptions: insulation between the I-beams**  **15 first section and insulation displaced by**  **16 ductwork and plumbing.**  **17 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **18 Lubliner. I will vote against this.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: What is the issue?**  **20 MR. LUBLINER: If you have want to**  **21 get rid of the -- yes, the things I have been**  **22 saying all along. I think the cavity should** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 be packed with insulation. I don't think you**  **2 should be able to allow for an R13 to sit in**  **3 the belly below the floor joist and have a**  **4 little piece of R13 in the rim and say that**  **5 that is effectively insulating that floor.**  **6 What I think that you are going to need to**  **7 have at least four feet of insulation there to**  **8 help limit air infiltration coming in through**  **9 the spaces between the staples on the rim**  **10 joist of the belly board. This goes right**  **11 around, horizontally right into your ductwork**  **12 in the middle of the belly board.**  **13 I don't see with this code change,**  **14 at least my understanding would be is that we**  **15 should always require that space to be fully**  **16 insulated, regardless of when the floor**  **17 insulation says R13 in your tradeoffs.**  **18 That is my own feeling and I am**  **19 going to vote against it and I will let the**  **20 group do what they are going to do.**  **21 MR. LUTER: Rob with Lippert. Mike,**  **22 are you concerned more about air infiltration** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 or thermal performance?**  **2 MR. LUBLINER: I'm concerned about**  **3 both and I am also concerned that the thermal**  **4 analysis of the floor U value with that in**  **5 place like that, because of the air**  **6 infiltration, you are not going to get the U**  **7 value you think you are going to get. It is**  **8 going to bypass at that point. And I think**  **9 that it is a good thing to have floor coverage**  **10 like the I code says, where you can do it.**  **11 And to do it here means you need to use the**  **12 depth of the insulation or fasten it like they**  **13 do in the site-built home with string. In a**  **14 site-built home, they go through many, many**  **15 ranks to get that thing covered up by using a**  **16 string on the I joist. Instead, we have a**  **17 belly closure that can help.**  **18 But if it is only R13 down there,**  **19 you are going to need to figure out a way to**  **20 attach it. Maybe this is a good thing. Maybe**  **21 they will keep people from just doing R13**  **22 bellies. I think that the belly needs to be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 insulated fully from the rim to the I joist in**  **2 any climate zone. But that is my own personal**  **3 opinion and like I said, I don't think I am**  **4 going to be changing on this one. So, you**  **5 guys can decide what you want to do and put me**  **6 down as an exception.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other comments?**  **8 MR. LEVY: Yes, this is Emanuel**  **9 Levy. Can you hear me?**  **10 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **11 MR. LEVY: I'm not sure what this**  **12 section is the way it is written right now.**  **13 It just basically says the floor cavity should**  **14 be insulated. And you can't comply with the**  **15 thermal provisions of the standards, the other**  **16 parts without insulating the floor.**  **17 So, I am not sure what this**  **18 discussion really adds.**  **19 MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo. I**  **20 agree that this started out with only talking**  **21 about connection if the insulation to the**  **22 underside of the decking and this thing has** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 morphed into how to install insulation in the**  **2 floor.**  **3 And like Emanuel said, I agree that**  **4 all the other sections of the code, whether**  **5 you do a prescriptive path or a performance**  **6 path, you have to insulate and you have to**  **7 prove that you are meeting certain R-values**  **8 and/or U values. So, I don't see the value in**  **9 all this language at all.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark.**  **11 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss. Question**  **12 for Mark Ezzo. Are the exceptions we are**  **13 talking about here addressed somewhere else?**  **14 Because I mean, the only value might be in**  **15 keeping the exceptions. I don't know.**  **16 MR. EZZO: Mark, I don't know that**  **17 you can meet the insulation requirements -- I**  **18 guess I am saying that wrong.**  **19 I think we use those exceptions when**  **20 we are designing the floor insulation, whether**  **21 it be prescriptive or using calculated U**  **22 values. So, if you have got compression and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you have got areas where a cavity isn't**  **2 completely full, you have to account for that**  **3 in the U value of your floor.**  **4 So, again, I think to Emanuel's**  **5 point, I mean I would strike the whole**  **6 section. And Mike Lubliner, aren't we --**  **7 maybe I am missing this but at the rim, aren't**  **8 we required to fully insulate the full**  **9 vertical height of the rim anyway?**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: My understanding is**  **11 that is what we see in the plants right now is**  **12 a piece of R11 or R19 insulation covering the**  **13 rim. They put it in in addition to the belly**  **14 to try to prevent some lateral heat loss and**  **15 thermal bridging.**  **16 I am good with eliminating the whole**  **17 section.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: You know what, folks?**  **19 This is consensus and this is how it works.**  **20 You have to allow for the discussion so that**  **21 way when you get somewhere, you understand how**  **22 you got there.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, let's go ahead and put the**  **2 strikethrough on it and let's take a vote.**  **3 All right?**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: A vote and then take a**  **5 break.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, we will do this**  **7 and then we will take a quick ten-minute**  **8 break.**  **9 So, let's see if you are okay with**  **10 striking the entire section. Let's see a show**  **11 of thumbs. Okay. Any thumbs down online?**  **12 Okay, then with that, then it is**  **13 unanimous.**  **14 Let's take a ten-minute break and**  **15 when we come back, Manny, if we could have you**  **16 continue with what is left in here, that would**  **17 be great.**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: All right, thank you.**  **19 Thank you, all.**  **20 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **21 matter went off the record at 10:12 a.m. and**  **22 resumed at 10:25 a.m.)** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: All right, we are back**  **2 from the break. And everybody on? Okay.**  **3 Well, we reached consensus on one**  **4 item there. Manny, do you want to continue?**  **5 I think there are just a few more left. Is**  **6 that right? This is Eileen Hoffman.**  **7 MR. SANTANA: That is correct.**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: Good, keep going.**  **9 MR. SANTANA: So, we went through**  **10 the -- we are down to -- okay. I guess we**  **11 should discuss the items that we haven't --**  **12 even the ones that we suggested remain the**  **13 same.**  **14 So, shower, tub on exterior walls.**  **15 We are talking about that entire row. And the**  **16 subcommittee recommended that we leave this as**  **17 it is with no changes.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, any questions or**  **19 is that a quick vote?**  **20 Let's see a show of thumbs if you**  **21 are okay with the recommendation from the**  **22 committee to keep it as it is. Any thumbs** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 down online?**  **2 Okay, that was unanimous.**  **3 MR. SANTANA: Can we scroll up a**  **4 little bit? I want to make sure we didn't**  **5 skip anything.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: So, Ted was doing a**  **7 fast scroll but I think what Ted is looking**  **8 for is just to make sure that everything that**  **9 is altered has a consensus by it. And Ted is**  **10 --**  **11 MR. BANTLE: Yes, it appears to be.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **13 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **14 MR. SANTANA: On the same page.**  **15 Okay, so electrical/phone box on exterior**  **16 walls. The current IECC we had a sentence**  **17 that was struck and a sentence that was added.**  **18 The sentence struck is air sealed boxes shall**  **19 be installed. And the sentence added is that**  **20 the air barrier shall be sealed around the box**  **21 or the box penetration. And this deals with**  **22 how the air barrier being compromised around** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 electrical/phone boxes on the exterior wall.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: Is there any**  **3 discussion?**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's see a show of**  **5 thumbs if you are okay with the recommendation**  **6 by the committee. Any thumbs down online?**  **7 Okay, then that one is unanimous as**  **8 well. Next.**  **9 MR. SANTANA: Next row, HVAC**  **10 register boots. And the subcommittee**  **11 recommends that this go through unaltered.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Any**  **13 questions on that one?**  **14 Can I see a show of thumbs if you**  **15 are okay with the recommendation from the**  **16 committee to keep it as it? Okay, online any**  **17 thumbs down?**  **18 All right, that one is unanimous as**  **19 well.**  **20 And I believe this is the last one,**  **21 right? The chart was a little compressed.**  **22 So, I just wanted to make sure that this was** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the last point. Manny, is this the last one?**  **2 MR. SANTANA: Well, it is the last**  **3 point in the table but there was also a**  **4 Footnote A that we had a recommendation on.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So, let's do**  **6 this one and then we will go to the footnote.**  **7 MR. BANTLE: Manny, this is Ted.**  **8 Should that Footnote A be on the same document**  **9 with the table?**  **10 MR. SANTANA: Yes.**  **11 MR. BANTLE: Okay.**  **12 MR. SANTANA: Yes, only that it**  **13 wasn't part of the table citation on the same**  **14 page.**  **15 MR. BANTLE: Okay, I will do that.**  **16 MR. SANTANA: Well, the last row**  **17 deals with sprinklers. Sprinklers are outside**  **18 of the current HUD Code. And for that reason,**  **19 our subcommittee votes to strike the entire**  **20 row.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So, is there a**  **22 comment online?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 MR. LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner. I **2 agree that sprinklers aren't very common but 3 if they were in the home, shouldn't they be**  **4 sealed? 5 MR. SANTANA: And to that point,**  **6 Mike, this is Manny again, if sprinklers are 7 installed, as we all know that they are, in**  **8 some cases, then they would just follow the 9 penetration of the air barrier.**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: Okay, I am good with 11 that. Thank you. Mike Lubliner.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: So, let's see a show 13 of thumbs if we are okay with the**  **14 recommendation of the committee. Anyone 15 online with your thumbs down?**  **16 Then, that one is approved 17 unanimously.**  **18 And then my hesitation is that 19 occasionally I am not seeing thumbs. And I**  **20 just want to remind everybody if you are 21 opposed you need to have your thumbs down,**  **22 otherwise you are okay with it. So, just a**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 reminder there.**  **2 Okay, now can you go to the**  **3 footnote?**  **4 MR. SANTANA: Okay, so the footnote**  **5 deals with a standard that deals with the log**  **6 walls. And I am a relative newbie to the**  **7 industry. I have only been here ten years but**  **8 I haven't seen a house with log walls built**  **9 actually yet. I don't think it applies.**  **10 We decided to strike it for those**  **11 reasons.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Any questions on that?**  **13 Okay, let's see a show of thumbs if you are**  **14 okay with the recommendation. Okay, anyone**  **15 online with your thumbs down?**  **16 Okay, then that was unanimous as**  **17 well.**  **18 Manny, is there anything else that**  **19 your committee wants to address?**  **20 MR. SANTANA: Yes, we had a few**  **21 other items that weren't addressed during last**  **22 week's meeting. By any chance, do you have** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the list that I sent out?**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: The email?**  **3 MR. SANTANA: The email, right. I**  **4 think we got through the heat pumps. Actually**  **5 we got through 403.5.1. I'm showing we got**  **6 through 403.5.1.1 as well as 403.5.1.32**  **7 because they were all a group.**  **8 MR. LACEY: So, Manny, this is Eric**  **9 Lacey. I have the list that you handed off to**  **10 me that has all of your checkmarks on it. And**  **11 it looks like the only two that don't have**  **12 checkmarks are R403.6 and R403.7.**  **13 MR. SANTANA: Right.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: You know what, Manny?**  **15 Could you hold on for a second? We are going**  **16 to make copies so that way everyone has it and**  **17 I am going to see if I can find the email.**  **18 MR. SANTANA: Okay.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: So we will just take a**  **20 brief break to do that.**  **21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **22 matter went off the record at 10:32 a.m. and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 resumed at 10:34 a.m.)**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Manny?**  **3 MR. SANTANA: Yes.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: We are going to put**  **5 the screen back up here and let me know if**  **6 this is the chart that you are referencing.**  **7 Is that it?**  **8 MR. SANTANA: That is it, yes.**  **9 We have gone through all of the**  **10 sections except for the two highlighted ones**  **11 on the previous screen. So, we have gone**  **12 through everything except R403.6 and R403.7.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so why don't we**  **14 take 403.6 first? Do you want to walk us**  **15 through that?**  **16 MR. SANTANA: Well, let me back up,**  **17 though. There was another one that we didn't**  **18 get to and that one was R402.4.4. We have**  **19 three sections left.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so that 402.4.4**  **21 is a little bit further up.**  **22 MR. SANTANA: Right. So 402.4.4 is,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 if you are set with that, it is on page R33 of**  **2 the IECC. And it is a section that deals with**  **3 rooms containing fuel-burning appliances. And**  **4 we didn't resolve it because we didn't get to**  **5 it. And part of the reason why we didn't get**  **6 to it is because we didn't have the full**  **7 language because there is a standard of the**  **8 HUD Code or there is a section of the HUD Code**  **9 that deals with a very similar subject and it**  **10 would have taken research to see how they both**  **11 compared and how they contrasted. And we**  **12 didn't have time to do that at the last**  **13 meeting and this one came pretty quickly.**  **14 So, we have no recommendations,**  **15 either. I don't know if this is something**  **16 that we just tell DOE that we think is**  **17 important and for them to look at or us go and**  **18 see what is currently there and what this**  **19 actually requires.**  **20 MR. SANTANA: Any discussion on**  **21 that?**  **22 MR. UNGAR: I just think it would** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 not be a priority for the full group that if**  **2 there is time, the subcommittee should go back**  **3 and consider this. If not, leave it for DOE.**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: So, your suggestion is**  **5 either consider it later or have DOE deal with**  **6 it.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: So, let's ask the**  **8 group. Is it something that you are okay with**  **9 letting DOE handle? Let's see a show of**  **10 thumbs if you are okay with that. And online,**  **11 is there any issue with that, any thumbs down?**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, so it goes to**  **14 DOE.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, 402.4.4 will be**  **16 handled by DOE.**  **17 Okay, 403.6.**  **18 MR. SANTANA: Okay, 403.6 is on page**  **19 R36 of your IECC.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: So, this is Joe**  **21 Hagerman. Just real quick while we are on**  **22 that last one, just let me go ahead and say** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it. Any manufacturers have any information**  **2 pertaining to that 402.4.4 or its effects on**  **3 indoor air quality, we would love to have any**  **4 information or separate comments.**  **5 And we will ask that question, too,**  **6 obviously, once you come up with the term**  **7 sheet and we write the actual NOPR, we will**  **8 put a question in there that specifically asks**  **9 for more information.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: And so, let me just**  **11 pick on this a little bit in the sense that**  **12 Lois or Emanuel, is that something that you**  **13 could look into to see if there is information**  **14 on that?**  **15 MS. STARKEY: Sure.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great. Thank**  **17 you.**  **18 Okay, 403.6.**  **19 MR. SANTANA: Okay, 403.6 is on page**  **20 R36 and it deals with mechanical ventilation.**  **21 And it is a little strange because the**  **22 subcommittee suggested that we accept in** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 principle but illustrated the need to consider**  **2 cost impact of fan efficacy requirements.**  **3 And the reason why I said that it is**  **4 tricky is because the only section that is**  **5 mandatory if 403.6. There is a 403.6.1, which**  **6 throws you to a mechanical ventilation system**  **7 fan efficacy. And I think what the**  **8 subcommittee had accepted in principle was the**  **9 need to have ventilation fan efficacy.**  **10 The current HUD Code has whole house**  **11 ventilation requirements. The IECC doesn't**  **12 give you any specific mechanical ventilation**  **13 requirements. And to my knowledge, you need**  **14 the IRC or the IMC when you have natural**  **15 ventilation.**  **16 So, and now I want to speak for the**  **17 group. I don't want to speak out of turn but**  **18 my understanding of what the group is**  **19 suggesting is that we accept in principle the**  **20 need for mechanical ventilation fan efficacy,**  **21 not so much the requirements for mechanical**  **22 ventilation.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So, is the**  **2 part for the mechanical ventilation, 403.6.1,**  **3 is that something that you are suggesting**  **4 similar to letting DOE handle that piece?**  **5 MR. LUTER: This is Rob from**  **6 Lippert. I would like to chime in on that if**  **7 I could, please.**  **8 While on the surface it might seem**  **9 that assigning minimum efficiencies to HVAC**  **10 equipment and mechanical fans is a good idea,**  **11 I think there is going to be unintended**  **12 consequences with respect to bathroom fans and**  **13 range hoods in that the electronically**  **14 commutated motor-type product or the**  **15 efficiencies on watts per cfm are going to**  **16 completely eliminate an entire class of**  **17 products that has been historically used in**  **18 HUD Code homes. And those are products that**  **19 utilize shaded pole electric motors and**  **20 backwardly inclined impellers.**  **21 Not to get too far into the weeds,**  **22 these are extremely efficient, cost-efficient,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I should say, means of moving the air. These**  **2 are products that are off for the majority of**  **3 time. And while one could argue that**  **4 increased efficiency is a good thing, the**  **5 amount of increased efficiency you are going**  **6 to get for the low amount of operating time,**  **7 I think, is going to prove to be a pretty**  **8 tough payback when you consider the cost of**  **9 these much more sophisticated products.**  **10 I don't have a dog in this fight. I**  **11 used to be in that industry so, I am aware of**  **12 the ins and outs in this. I just thought I**  **13 would throw that out and see if the group**  **14 would want to act on this.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric?**  **16 MR. LACEY: So, this is Eric. Rob,**  **17 are you suggesting that maybe a couple more**  **18 categories of products be added to the fan**  **19 efficacy table? I mean, I gathered that for**  **20 the types of fans that are normally included**  **21 in these categories in the table, are there**  **22 any issues with the efficacy requirements? Is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it just a matter of adding two or three more**  **2 categories for the types of fans being used**  **3 that they say are efficient or are you**  **4 suggesting eliminating it?**  **5 MR. LUTER: Well, the issue is that**  **6 the -- and this won't be a problem with the**  **7 class of homes that, for example, Mike**  **8 Lubliner is very familiar with, the northwest.**  **9 In fact, I think BTA has been mandating this**  **10 kind of efficacy for a while. We used to run**  **11 into it up there in terms of not only**  **12 efficiency at the zone level but the**  **13 demographic that is going to be mostly**  **14 effected are the entry level homes, let's say**  **15 in the southeast and the southwest, where they**  **16 are using a bathroom that costs under $10 and**  **17 they are going to need to change to a bathroom**  **18 fan that costs over $40, perhaps over $50.**  **19 I'm not sure exactly where the market is right**  **20 now with that on the wholesale level but it is**  **21 a completely different animal.**  **22 I don't have a great solution. I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 mean we could add less efficient products to**  **2 this table. We could just say no, the table**  **3 is fine as is. I just want to make sure that**  **4 the group is aware that efficacy in this case,**  **5 means significant costs. It is not the**  **6 difference between a light bulb that costs**  **7 $1.39 and $8. It is the difference between a**  **8 bathroom fan that costs under $10 versus one**  **9 that costs $50 or a range hood that costs $25**  **10 today that is going to cost $150. It is just**  **11 the reality of that class of air mover.**  **12 They are nice products. Don't get**  **13 me wrong but the costs are quite a bit higher**  **14 than current.**  **15 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **16 Lubliner.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael?**  **18 MR. LUBLINER: Rob is right. To get**  **19 a better, you are going to be changing the**  **20 type of exhaust fans, motors, getting a more**  **21 energy efficient motor that over the life of**  **22 these fans will be, I believe, very cost** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 effective. They are generally ENERGY STAR**  **2 rated. But we haven't done a cost**  **3 effectiveness analysis of this. It could be**  **4 done.**  **5 I would suggest that there is more**  **6 important reason for the requirement for the**  **7 better, more expensive fans and that is my**  **8 personal experience and published research in**  **9 international engineering journals and my**  **10 presentations and NIST presentations from**  **11 scientists at the Consensus Committee has all**  **12 been suggesting that when you measure the flow**  **13 rate of these cheap fart fans, these $10 fans,**  **14 you are not achieving the minimum flow**  **15 requirements stated in the HUD Code.**  **16 The HUD Code says 50 cfm for a bath**  **17 fan and it says 100 cfm for the kitchen. I**  **18 have repeatedly measured these at 25 cfm. I**  **19 have raised this issue with the HUD Consensus**  **20 Committee. I believe there is a working task**  **21 group of the Consensus Committee that is going**  **22 to be addressing this. This is also discussed** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 in GAO's report to HUD. And that report, I**  **2 would really encourage folks to read because**  **3 it says testing of performance evaluation**  **4 could ensure better safe indoor air quality.**  **5 And part of what they were talking about is**  **6 that nobody measures the flow rates of bath**  **7 fans in this industry, evidently, except for**  **8 me. And when I do it, I get half the flow.**  **9 So, we need a better bath fan, not**  **10 only for energy efficiency but so that it**  **11 addresses purging the bathroom of moisture and**  **12 reducing the associated mold or other problems**  **13 with the underperforming out of spec current**  **14 practice.**  **15 I would like to suggest that we**  **16 table this, leave this to DOE to talk about.**  **17 I would also point out that the Uniform**  **18 Mechanical Codes, these codes reference ASHRAE**  **19 60.22 and the Manufacturer Construction**  **20 Consensus Committee recently approved the use**  **21 of ASHRAE 60.22 as an approach to meeting the**  **22 criteria for ventilation and they also have** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the current HUD ventilation criteria. But I**  **2 really do believe that this would be a**  **3 positive change and well worth the money both**  **4 from an energy and a mold avoidance**  **5 standpoint. Thank you.**  **6 Sorry for rambling.**  **7 MR. LUTER: Rob from Lippert. Just**  **8 one more comment. I will agree with Michael**  **9 that the majority of the products that are out**  **10 there right now do not deliver to the exterior**  **11 of the home their rated capacity. This is an**  **12 issue I have been working on since the mid**  **13 '90s as well.**  **14 The issue is that the rating system**  **15 used by the Home Ventilating Institute bears**  **16 no resemblance at all to a real world**  **17 application. So, in that respect, I think a**  **18 hard look at this is a good idea.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark --**  **20 MR. LUBLINER: Rob, this is Mike**  **21 Lubliner again. Can I follow up on that?**  **22 From what I understand the HVI** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 specifications have two listings for pressure**  **2 drop. A 0.1 inches of water, which is rarely,**  **3 rarely achieved when you duct it and put a cap**  **4 on it. They also have a 0.25 inches of water**  **5 column.**  **6 And I think what has been happening**  **7 and the reason that we have some of these low**  **8 flows is we have been trying to size these**  **9 fans and assuming we had 0.1, when we really**  **10 have about 0.25 or worse, depending on the run**  **11 and the Ls and the restriction of the flex**  **12 being used. Just a point of clarification.**  **13 MR. LUTER: No, I appreciate that,**  **14 Mike. I wasn't aware of the quarter-inch**  **15 water column issue. I have been out of the**  **16 air-moving industry for a little while. And**  **17 when I was in it, it was just a tenth of an**  **18 inch of water column.**  **19 But again, I think it is something**  **20 that we ought to get a closer look at but**  **21 going in, understand the cost ramifications.**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: Absolutely, there are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 cost ramifications.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Mark and**  **3 then Lois.**  **4 MR. WEISS: First I have a question**  **5 if somebody could answer it. Looking at the**  **6 section when it says that meets the**  **7 requirements of these two codes as applicable**  **8 or with other approved means of ventilation.**  **9 Could somebody just talk about what other**  **10 approved means of ventilation is, and who does**  **11 the approving, and on what basis?**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Richard, do you have**  **13 an answer?**  **14 MR. POTTS: This is Richard Potts.**  **15 That is just referring to billing official or**  **16 to jurisdiction who approves the plan. So,**  **17 that is more geared towards your building**  **18 locality where there is a prescriptive method**  **19 but it gives the building official some kind**  **20 of flexibility to approve some sort of method**  **21 for testing. So, I don't know if that is**  **22 really applicable to our situation of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 adapting. **2 MR. WEISS: Okay, thanks. I just 3 have a problem with just leaving this out of**  **4 what we are doing and just delegating it to 5 DOE. I think we need to work at this with**  **6 respect to costs and also with respect to the 7 technical aspects of it, particularly since**  **8 you are making the home tighter and potential 9 collateral impacts from that.**  **10 I really wouldn't be comfortable 11 just separating this part out of what we are**  **12 doing. 13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Lois.**  **14 MS. STARKEY: Lois Starkey, MHI. 15 This issue is very near and dear to the**  **16 Consensus Committee and to HUD's authority 17 right now because of the GAO Report of**  **18 November of 2011. And the committee has just 19 met. They are working on this. I would**  **20 recommend that we ask DOE to consult with HUD 21 and the consensus committee and work on this**  **22 issue, which is a very important issue to air**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 tightness, to indoor air quality and something**  **2 that is already being worked on and**  **3 professional people are working on this.**  **4 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss. I have no**  **5 problem with that because it will be fully**  **6 vetted within that process.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Any suggestion?**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: We can always take it**  **9 under advisement.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So, then, the**  **11 question is to have DOE handle this**  **12 consultation with HUD and the Consensus**  **13 Committee.**  **14 MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo. Can**  **15 we strike the language, though, as it is**  **16 written where it says reference the**  **17 International Residential Code? Because I am**  **18 looking at the IRC right now and it is pretty**  **19 cumbersome. And considering the HUD Code**  **20 already has whole house mechanical ventilation**  **21 requirements, pretty detailed out, by the way.**  **22 I think everybody knows that.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I mean to me, my suggestion would be**  **2 we keep what HUD has got and strike this**  **3 mechanical ventilation section, other than the**  **4 comments that people made before about the fan**  **5 efficacy needing to be evaluated further. But**  **6 if we want to go with what Lois and Mark**  **7 suggested, I'm fine with that. But I think,**  **8 in addition to making that statement, we**  **9 should strike what it says here, so there is**  **10 no confusion about possibly maintaining this**  **11 reference to the IRC.**  **12 MS. DICKENS: This is Ishbel from**  **13 the Manufactured Home Owners Association. I**  **14 would not support removing that language. We**  **15 are going to not really deal with this in the**  **16 Department of Energy Working Group but doing**  **17 to deal with it at the MHCC, then I don't**  **18 think there is any reason to change the**  **19 language here at all. I just ask that we**  **20 leave it the way it is, especially if DOE is**  **21 taking it under advisement because I think the**  **22 air ventilation thing has been a huge issue.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And the DOE report speaks to it very**  **2 clearly. It is something that HUD should have**  **3 been dealing with a long time ago and the fact**  **4 that we still haven't got a final rule on that**  **5 really concerns me.**  **6 So, I would like to just leave the**  **7 language as is and hopefully the HUD process**  **8 -- as Lois says, there's a group that is**  **9 looking at it right now, hopefully will come**  **10 out with the final language on that when we**  **11 meet in December. But I don't want to mess**  **12 with this language until HUD has a final rule**  **13 on it.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get --**  **15 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter from**  **16 Efficiency Vermont and I agree with that.**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Who is this?**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Peter.**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, let me get Mark**  **21 and then Lois again.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: Also, has anyone else** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 joined us? Peter Schneider, just? Okay.**  **2 MR. WEISS: Yes, I agree with Mark.**  **3 I think leaving it potentially could trump**  **4 whatever happens within the MHCC, essentially**  **5 prejudge the outcome. So, I would want to**  **6 take it out.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Lois.**  **8 MS. STARKEY: I guess maybe we could**  **9 just have it -- I was thinking that we are not**  **10 going to act on, I don't think, at least that**  **11 is not my recommendation, that we act on and**  **12 affirmatively including that provision, that**  **13 we table it or make some notation.**  **14 So, whether we leave it in or out,**  **15 we are going to make it clear, I think, or I**  **16 would like to recommend that we make it clear**  **17 that this group hasn't taken a position on**  **18 that and that we would like DOE and HUD to**  **19 consult, so it doesn't really matter whether**  **20 we leave it in or out, as long as we make it**  **21 clear that we are not taking a position on**  **22 that provision.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, MAHRR. I**  **2 wouldn't have any problem with leaving the**  **3 category and not leaving the title and simply**  **4 making the notation the issue will be**  **5 addressed pursuant to consultation between DOE**  **6 and HUD by the Manufactured Housing Consensus**  **7 Committee.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Michael.**  **9 MR. LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner. Yes,**  **10 I kind of agree with Mark and agree with**  **11 Ishbel and everybody. But I do think we could**  **12 do this by just saying, inserting where there**  **13 is a ventilation that meets the requirements**  **14 of, and leave what is in there now but also**  **15 include HUD's Manufactured Housing**  **16 Construction Safety Standards. If we include**  **17 that in there, we are okay because then DOE**  **18 can look at all of those and decide. And by**  **19 including the Manufactured Housing**  **20 Construction Safety Standards, I think what we**  **21 will end up with is the opportunity to use**  **22 either the existing ventilation standards and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the HUD Code or 60.22, which is referenced in**  **2 the Residential Code as well.**  **3 So, I just suggesting inserting**  **4 Federal Manufactured Housing Construction**  **5 Safety Standards and then I am okay with the**  **6 reference to the Consensus Committee stuff**  **7 that was suggested. Maybe that is a**  **8 compromise to get between Mark and Ishbel.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so that --**  **10 MS. DICKENS: I would accept that as**  **11 well.**  **12 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco. I**  **13 think that we might be confusing the issue**  **14 here and, you know, there is two issues that**  **15 I understand are being discussed. One deals**  **16 with indoor air quality and the other one**  **17 deals with fan efficacy. One of those issues**  **18 is within our charter and the other one is**  **19 not.**  **20 So you know the indoor air quality**  **21 issue I think is the one muddying this stuff**  **22 up. And what the subcommittee presented and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 agreed to in principle was to look at fan**  **2 efficacy within the field of energy. And that**  **3 is what we are concerned with.**  **4 You know the other issue whether HUD**  **5 is doing it or whether the GOA report is going**  **6 to make us do it or whether it is two I**  **7 referenced in the IRC, what the IRC says, what**  **8 the IMC -- we don't need that to carve out.**  **9 The only thing that I think is**  **10 within our purview here is the energy**  **11 consideration of the fans themselves and how**  **12 those should be considered.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so does everyone**  **14 agree with that that the air quality issues**  **15 are out of scope?**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: So, I think -- Joe**  **17 Hagerman, DOE -- we have always been concerned**  **18 about the efficiency of the mechanical**  **19 ventilation system and its impact on indoor**  **20 air quality. So, I really like this. I**  **21 really encourage this group if you just want**  **22 to punt it down the field, that's fine. We** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 are going to ask in the rule for more**  **2 information about efficiency of the mechanical**  **3 system and its impact on indoor air quality**  **4 because we don't have good visibility into**  **5 that issue.**  **6 Obviously, we have good**  **7 understanding of the fan efficiencies and how**  **8 to get the mechanical ventilation system**  **9 efficient. We just don't know the impact it**  **10 would have in this sector and the whole indoor**  **11 air quality issue that we know that the**  **12 industry has deal with previously.**  **13 So, that is why I would like this**  **14 group to, you know, if I had my preference, I**  **15 would have you kind of discuss it and come up**  **16 with some resolution to these two issues**  **17 because they are sort of linked, to give us**  **18 some more guidance. Does that make sense?**  **19 MR. CASKEY: Well, this is John**  **20 Caskey at NEMA and I agree with that whole**  **21 heartedly. That I mean as we are trying to**  **22 improve energy efficiency and reduce** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 infiltration, certainly it is a lot easier to**  **2 get a manufactured housing sort of air tight**  **3 or almost air tight than a conventional home.**  **4 So, I certainly think it is important for this**  **5 group to at least touch on it or to ask that**  **6 some other agency investigate it more fully to**  **7 make sure that you are covering your bases.**  **8 I would hate for some sort of mold problem or**  **9 something like that to develop as a result of**  **10 trying to move forward with energy efficiency.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark?**  **12 MR. WEISS: Without necessarily**  **13 taking a position on what Joe said without**  **14 looking at it further, it doesn't change the**  **15 discussion about -- well, that doesn't change**  **16 my concerns that I said before and that is,**  **17 just punting this issue effectively to DOE**  **18 without having looked at it and assessed it**  **19 either here or via the MHCC. This is**  **20 potentially a significant issue both with**  **21 respect to the home itself and with respect to**  **22 cost. And I just don't see how you come to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 any kind of a final, legitimate recommendation**  **2 without having this factored into it.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois and then --**  **4 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **5 Lubliner.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.**  **7 MR. LUBLINER: You know I think that**  **8 my position is that I am pretty confident that**  **9 the exhaust fans now are only putting out**  **10 typically half of the minimum requirements for**  **11 the existing HUD Code home.**  **12 So, my logic is that that needs to**  **13 be fixed, regardless of what is going on. To**  **14 fix that, you are going to need better**  **15 performing fans like the fans that we are**  **16 talking about that absolutely will have that**  **17 better efficacy that will actually move the 50**  **18 cfm out of the bathroom with the current**  **19 ducting configuration or the 100 out of the**  **20 kitchen.**  **21 So, I would argue that if these**  **22 requirements aren't being made, they should be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 made for health and safety and mold. And if**  **2 they are made, it is a moot point because you**  **3 will get fans that have the higher efficacy.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric.**  **5 MR. LUBLINER: And I kind of feel**  **6 like DOE can take this information, talk with**  **7 ASHRAE Standard 60.22, talk with NIST who did**  **8 the research on healthy houses for**  **9 manufactured homes and tested, talk with the**  **10 experts within their national labs and come**  **11 back and look at whether or not this should be**  **12 a requirement, regardless of whether it saves**  **13 any energy.**  **14 And if that is the case, then I**  **15 think the incremental cost is zero because**  **16 this is something that is long overdue and**  **17 those costs shouldn't be part of Energy Code.**  **18 Anyway, that is all I can say on it**  **19 right now. I have done a lot of work in this**  **20 area. I think that the consensus committee is**  **21 moving into a dialogue that will recognize**  **22 this as a needed change to make sure that they** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 are meeting the HUD standard they are already**  **2 building to. Thank you.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric.**  **4 MR. LACEY: This is Eric. I mean I**  **5 am not a mechanical engineer. Luby**  **6 understands this much better than I do and**  **7 actually he said most of what I was going to**  **8 say.**  **9 I would just say that I don't think**  **10 it is fair to compare a fan that is currently**  **11 being installed that is not doing the job with**  **12 one that would do the job and would be more**  **13 efficient. I think going from $10 to whatever**  **14 it is going to be, $40, is probably an unfair**  **15 comparison and I don't think we should pull**  **16 out the individual cost effectiveness of an**  **17 item like that, especially where the current**  **18 fans, as I am hearing, are not doing the job**  **19 adequately.**  **20 I am still kind of hung up on the**  **21 table. The IECC membership decided that these**  **22 values were reasonable, per cfm is a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 reasonable efficiency levels. And I haven't**  **2 heard anyone suggest that those are not cost**  **3 effective or not reasonable. So, while I**  **4 understand that HUD is going to continue, I am**  **5 hearing HUD is going to continue to move**  **6 forward on getting effective ventilation**  **7 standards, I would like to make sure that we**  **8 are recommending some kind of efficacy level**  **9 to DOE, whether it is these numbers here or**  **10 whether somebody has something else to**  **11 suggest. They were put here for a reason. I**  **12 assume they were cost-effective in the stick**  **13 built home world.**  **14 So, I think the two are going to be**  **15 linked like Luby said and I wouldn't**  **16 completely get rid of the efficacy**  **17 requirements.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Joe, did you**  **19 have something? Okay.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: Sorry.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So, I am**  **22 hearing that this is something that the group** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 may need to deal with. And so the question I**  **2 have for you is is that something that we**  **3 could take care of through discussion right**  **4 now or is it something that might be better**  **5 handled by the subcommittee?**  **6 MR. SANTANA: This is Manny with**  **7 Cavco. You know I think this issue here has**  **8 got a lot of angles to it. And there is a lot**  **9 of information that is lacking from the**  **10 discussion here, one of which is what exactly**  **11 does HUD require. What exactly does the IRC**  **12 require? Because there is a difference**  **13 between what is in the IRC and the IMC and**  **14 would then state specific requirements.**  **15 To my knowledge to me, the 2012 IRC**  **16 and IMC did not mandate mechanical ventilation**  **17 unless you don't have enough natural**  **18 ventilation. The California State Code, that**  **19 does require mechanical ventilation and I**  **20 think Oregon's might as well. So, I think**  **21 that this issue has got to be dealt with at a**  **22 subcommittee because there is too much -- you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 need to do a lot of research and there is too**  **2 much for us to go through right now to come to**  **3 a decision based on factual information in**  **4 this venue.**  **5 Then you get into the other issue of**  **6 on the one hand you have air quality, which is**  **7 important. On the other hand, you have energy**  **8 usage. Well, how can you say that well, we**  **9 are going to take -- we are concerned about**  **10 the house being too hot, so, we need to**  **11 provide mechanical means to exhaust air and**  **12 then let makeup air come in through gaps but**  **13 that is going to be eliminating. This is**  **14 unconditioned air which is just going to have**  **15 be conditioned. It could be moist.**  **16 And so there a lot of issues here**  **17 that have to be discussed. And I don't think**  **18 we are going to get anywhere here.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So, Manny,**  **20 you are suggesting that it be deferred to a**  **21 subcommittee. There was also Lois had**  **22 mentioned that this is currently being** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 investigated by HUD and the Consensus**  **2 Committee. Do you defer to them or do we have**  **3 our own subcommittee?**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: I think we need to**  **5 form our own subcommittee because you need to**  **6 --**  **7 MR. SANTANA: Yes, we need our own.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: I think we need to**  **9 create our own and I hate to put David Tompos**  **10 on the spot but I think he has done a good**  **11 deal of indoor air quality testing. And I**  **12 assume that you all are manufactured housing**  **13 experts.**  **14 Is there something that you could**  **15 maybe form a subcommittee around to give us**  **16 some understanding of it?**  **17 MR. TOMPOS: Well, what kind of**  **18 scope are you looking for? I mean we have**  **19 done the test. We can do the testing.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: We are looking, I**  **21 think the scope is we are looking to help and**  **22 how this committee deals with 403.6 and 403.7.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean my personal**  **2 opinion is I think we should we all use ENERGY**  **3 STAR fans but I am going to get a lot of push**  **4 back from the industry because I do think air**  **5 quality is extremely important.**  **6 I would need some help --**  **7 MR. LUBLINER: Joe, this is Mike**  **8 Lubliner.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: I support, Dave, if**  **11 you want to volunteer. I would do it as well**  **12 if he didn't want to. But I would certainly**  **13 support him on the committee helping him. I**  **14 just do a back of the envelope calculation.**  **15 Basically, the cheap fart fans or the $5, $10**  **16 fart fans, they are putting out about 50 watts**  **17 when they run. And the fan efficacy we are**  **18 looking at here is putting out 20 watts. So,**  **19 we are talking about a differential 30 watts**  **20 per fan.**  **21 Now, assuming two bathroom and a**  **22 kitchen fan are running with that differential** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 30 watt savings, it is 90 watts a day if it is**  **2 on for an hour. Assuming that they will be on**  **3 for say a couple of hours in the morning,**  **4 maybe an hour in the evening, if we say three**  **5 hours and you do the calculation at a dime a**  **6 kilowatt hour, the fan, the additional fan not**  **7 only is it quieter and reliable and moving the**  **8 air necessary to meet the current minimum code**  **9 but, just on the energy savings alone of the**  **10 ENERGY STAR fans, as Dave puts it, we are**  **11 talking about a payback that is within the**  **12 life of the fan.**  **13 So, I think our committee can look**  **14 into this and both look at the implications**  **15 for air quality, as well as the cost**  **16 effectiveness of the fan. I should also point**  **17 out that the energy that the fan creates when**  **18 it is running leaves the house. So, it is not**  **19 going back into heating the house at all. And**  **20 I think that that means it is going to be a**  **21 good option for a cost-effective improvement**  **22 that will also compliment improving air** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 quality and meeting current HUD standards.**  **2 Thank you.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Now, I heard Joe make**  **4 a recommendation for a subcommittee for 402.6**  **5 and 402.7 because they are related.**  **6 MR. SANTANA: They are not related.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. And is a**  **8 subcommittee of David Tompos and Michael**  **9 Lubliner, is that enough, with you all getting**  **10 the folks that you need externally for that?**  **11 Is that big enough to make it to that?**  **12 MR. LUTER: I would happy to**  **13 participate. This is Rob.**  **14 MR. TOMPOS: It would be nice to**  **15 have a manufacturer in that group, just so we**  **16 can potentially get to their suppliers. I**  **17 mean we are going to need costs on fans.**  **18 MR. EZZO: Dave, this Mark Ezzo. I**  **19 will help.**  **20 MR. LUBLINER: Great. Mike**  **21 Lubliner, too, I can bring, since I am on the**  **22 ASHRAE 60.22 committee, I can bring the 60.22** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 chairman, if we need him and the then industry**  **2 folks from that committee to a discussion and**  **3 have them provide information as well. I**  **4 think we can get it. I think we have a good**  **5 group to resolve this and it is an important**  **6 issue, I think, everybody agrees.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so I am showing**  **8 as the fan subcommittee as David Tompos, as**  **9 the chair. And then Michael Lubliner, Rob**  **10 Luter, and Mark Ezzo.**  **11 MR. JENSEN: I have a quick comment,**  **12 Mike Jensen from DOE.**  **13 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Manny, I will**  **15 add you in there.**  **16 MR. JENSEN: DOE over the past**  **17 couple of years --**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Say your name.**  **19 MR. JENSEN: Sorry, this is Michael**  **20 Jensen from DOE, general counsel. We have**  **21 been looking into this issue for a couple of**  **22 years now. And I think one of my asks for the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 subcommittee is just to also maybe not just**  **2 consider this as the fan issue but also**  **3 determine the impacts of natural air**  **4 infiltration, based on prior versions of the**  **5 HUD Code, the current version of the IECC and**  **6 determine just what impact natural air**  **7 infiltration has determining overall indoor**  **8 air quality vis-a-vis mechanical ventilation.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: Can you serve as a**  **10 consultant to the committee?**  **11 MR. JENSEN: I am technically**  **12 supporting Joe here.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: He can? Okay, through**  **14 Joe.**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: But he will provide**  **16 -- whatever we collected before we can provide**  **17 to them.**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **19 MR. JENSEN: We have a lot of**  **20 information about indoor air quality, the**  **21 relationship between natural infiltration,**  **22 mechanical ventilation and tightening of the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 thermal envelope. So, I would just like the**  **2 committee or the subcommittee to consider**  **3 those three variables in their deliberations.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. This is Joe**  **5 Hagerman with DOE just to reiterate what**  **6 Michael just said was you know is the**  **7 relationship between R43.6, R43.7, and then**  **8 also indoor air quality. It is the balance of**  **9 those three things.**  **10 There is not a section in any code**  **11 that really specifically says indoor air**  **12 quality but it is the elephant in the room.**  **13 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco. I**  **14 don't think 403.7 is germane to this**  **15 discussion.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, I think we are**  **17 worried about the efficiency of the whole**  **18 house ventilation and equipment.**  **19 MR. SANTANA: Okay, so I think you**  **20 mean 403.6.1.**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: Oh, yes, I do. Yes,**  **22 I do.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. SANTANA: Yes.**  **2 MR. JENSEN: And specifically, just**  **3 to clarify where I am coming from there, prior**  **4 versions of the HUD Code and also prior**  **5 interpretations from ASHRAE on 62.2 at least**  **6 beg the question as to whether natural air**  **7 infiltration should be considered in**  **8 determining overall, vis-a-vis mechanical**  **9 ventilation in determining indoor air quality.**  **10 So, I think that there are three**  **11 different variables that need to be considered**  **12 equally here.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: What were the**  **14 variables once again?**  **15 MR. JENSEN: Natural air**  **16 infiltration, mechanical ventilation and**  **17 tightening the building thermal envelope.**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Now,**  **19 realistically, can the subcommittee come back**  **20 with something in time for our next meeting?**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: Absolutely is the**  **22 answer.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, Joe.**  **2 Right, absolutely. Let the record show --**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Don't as the**  **4 question.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Unless you have the**  **6 answer, which is absolutely.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right.**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: Good.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, then allow**  **10 this to be handled by the subcommittee. Then**  **11 that takes care of 403.6. Well, that's being**  **12 handled so we don't have to bring back a**  **13 recommendation, right to the main group here?**  **14 And then that leaves 403.7. Manny?**  **15 MR. SANTANA: Okay, 403.7 is on page**  **16 R36. This section deals with equipment sizing**  **17 and efficiency rating. It is a mandatory**  **18 section and it basically requires it refers to**  **19 equipment to be sized using Manual S and it is**  **20 required that the load be calculated using**  **21 Manual J.**  **22 And the subcommittee, well, they** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 would have come to a determination on this and**  **2 it is a big issue. The suggestion is move it**  **3 to the parking lot for further discussion.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right.**  **5 MR. SANTANA: You know part of the**  **6 reason -- I will give you some of the**  **7 background. The reasons why we thought the**  **8 issue was bigger than just the subcommittee**  **9 itself is because of the contrast with the way**  **10 this is currently handled by the industry.**  **11 You know, the industry currently doesn't size**  **12 -- well, it doesn't typically provide cooling**  **13 equipment and it only provides heating**  **14 equipment. And it doesn't use Manual J to**  **15 size it.**  **16 As we discussed in previous**  **17 discussions, we just account for manufacturers**  **18 have two or three per the sizes that they buy.**  **19 And based on the heat loss calculations, those**  **20 are just put in with thermal and they think it**  **21 is going to work fast but they are not exactly**  **22 sized per the manual.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And then Manual J isn't used because**  **2 the PNNL methodology, which is spelled out in**  **3 the HUD Code, that one is used.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: So, this is Joe**  **5 Hagerman, DOE. Did that, I understand, I**  **6 think it is a Patel document, the Patel**  **7 document that is referenced in the HUD Code,**  **8 didn't that predate Manual J?**  **9 MR. SANTANA: I don't know.**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **11 Lubliner. I think that the document was 94.**  **12 And I can't recall when the Manual J person**  **13 Hank Rutkowski first did it.**  **14 I did talk with Glenn Hourahan this**  **15 week, who is the Director of Research for**  **16 ACCA. I am on the Manual S committee, which**  **17 uses Manual J. The Manual J is the heat loss**  **18 calculation for the house, the room to room**  **19 heat loss. Manual S then uses Manual J to**  **20 size the equipment, any equipment, HVAC**  **21 equipment. Then Manual D is used to size the**  **22 duct work if there is forced air ducting** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 heated system. So, that is the ACCA manuals.**  **2 When you Glenn and I, when we looked**  **3 at the HUD Code, his observation was holy**  **4 moly, this is a thousand BTUs per -- no,**  **5 excuse me. I think it was twice what would be**  **6 required if you used Manual J. It should be**  **7 something like 500 BTUs per ton. And instead**  **8 of 500 BTUs per square foot, instead when he**  **9 looked at it, the current is about 1,000 BTUs**  **10 per square foot.**  **11 So, anyway you look at it, I think**  **12 that we need to really reinvestigate how the**  **13 current sizing is being done -- my**  **14 understanding it hasn't changed since the '70s**  **15 -- and really seriously consider using Manual**  **16 J or a simplified version of Manual J like**  **17 just upping it from the cfm per ton, come up**  **18 with a factor like that.**  **19 But I do think that conforming to**  **20 ACCA sizing criteria is what the HVAC industry**  **21 knows that that is generally the ANSI standard**  **22 and they are the ones that are going to be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 bringing after-market equipment in. And I**  **2 think conforming to that standard for that**  **3 equipment that goes into the factory is**  **4 useful.**  **5 But it will require that they**  **6 engineer it more like some of the modular**  **7 homes that they build that they have to meet**  **8 the Manual S, Manual J, Manual D criteria for**  **9 it.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: So, Joe Hagerman, DOE**  **11 again. Is there a reason why Manual J would**  **12 not apply to these homes when they apply to**  **13 all other buildings from the manufacturers?**  **14 I mean, it is just a -- it is**  **15 developed by ASHRAE that is physics-based and**  **16 the laws of physics apply to manufactured**  **17 housing.**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Although, David**  **20 Tompos just shook his head no, they don't.**  **21 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss. I point out**  **22 the laws of economics also apply. If you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 increase the price too much, you lose**  **2 purchasers.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Right but I think in**  **4 this case you would actually reduce the size**  **5 of equipment. So, you actually would see the**  **6 opposite of that.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Eric.**  **8 MR. LACEY: Yes, Mark, this**  **9 addresses your point. These are cost savings**  **10 we are talking about here that I think are**  **11 being overlooked. And I know we had this**  **12 discussion. We started this discussion**  **13 before. And there are kind of two sides of it**  **14 here. One side is looking at what is commonly**  **15 installed at the plant, which is, I guess, the**  **16 heating unit and whether those could be more**  **17 appropriately sized and that would have some**  **18 direct cost impacts on the manufacturers, some**  **19 savings, I should say, impacts on**  **20 manufacturers.**  **21 And I think those would be**  **22 recommended and maybe you don't get all the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 way down to the size that you need but if you**  **2 could reduce it a little bit and allow the**  **3 units the function as they are designed, then**  **4 there would be not only some cost savings from**  **5 the manufacturer but also for the home owner**  **6 because those get replaced every 10 to 15**  **7 years and replacing a smaller unit is going to**  **8 cost less every 10 to 15 years.**  **9 The other side of this is the air**  **10 conditioning, which I understand is not**  **11 typically installed by the manufacturer but we**  **12 expect will be installed at some point down**  **13 the line in most units.**  **14 And there is not, I think there is**  **15 not enough direction given to the homeowner**  **16 and to the eventual contractor or whoever is**  **17 going to be installing this unit to tell them**  **18 this is the size of the unit that belongs in**  **19 this home. And we have to figure out a way to**  **20 provide a clearer signal to whoever is going**  **21 to be installing that. And it may be**  **22 installed as soon as the unit is sited or when** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it goes to the retailer. I'm not sure at what**  **2 point but I think it happens pretty quickly.**  **3 Can we provide guidance if we can't**  **4 provide a single number for how they should be**  **5 sized? Because the same issues applied here**  **6 only rather than the cost being kind of split**  **7 or the savings being split between the**  **8 manufacturer and the homeowner, all of the**  **9 savings would go to the homeowner here. If**  **10 you have got a smaller air conditioning unit,**  **11 it is going to run more efficiently, it is**  **12 going to last longer and it is going to cost**  **13 less, and replacing the unit is going to cost**  **14 less.**  **15 So, this seems to be sort of an**  **16 untapped source of energy and cost savings.**  **17 And if we can't require the ACCA manuals and**  **18 can't be that specific with it at the plant,**  **19 can we give a recommendation or provide a**  **20 chart or a map or something that would give**  **21 the ultimate installer some better guidance on**  **22 sizing? That is my rant.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I think I would get another**  **2 mechanical engineer. I don't understand the**  **3 specifics but in the stick-built world, this**  **4 is a huge energy savings issues and cost**  **5 savings issue.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean the question**  **7 is still on the table why Manual J and why**  **8 Manual S here wouldn't apply to manufactured**  **9 housing. It seems like you all have to do,**  **10 the manufacturers have to do this for the**  **11 Modular Code already. Right? So, I mean you**  **12 know how to follow the manuals.**  **13 So, is this something that we should**  **14 just take a vote on right now?**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: That is what is going**  **16 through my head. I mean if that is what you**  **17 are talking about, it would have be basically**  **18 you are accepting Manual S and Manual J are**  **19 fine. What would be the problem with that?**  **20 MR. TOMPOS: I'm not familiar enough**  **21 with those manuals but aren't there a**  **22 provision in there that we have to pick an** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 actual location, an address and orientation to**  **2 be able to do those calculations or is that**  **3 not the case?**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, that may be the**  **5 case but you would have to -- that may or may**  **6 not be the case but if don't install the unit**  **7 when you ship it from the factor, you would**  **8 just push that down to whoever is installing**  **9 the unit. Right? You would require in your**  **10 --**  **11 MR. SANTANA: Many from Cavco here.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Manny?**  **13 MR. SANTANA: If I can speak. If I**  **14 can ask Joe's question as well as I can.**  **15 You know to the point of how modular**  **16 manufacturers do it now, in my experience most**  **17 modular manufacturers run the REScheck. So,**  **18 they don't do a Manual J, they just run the**  **19 REScheck.**  **20 And I think the question is valid**  **21 how do we know that Manual J isn't appropriate**  **22 for HUD Code. But before we answer that, how** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 do we know that the way we currently do the**  **2 heat loss count is inadequate? You know I**  **3 think we should answer that one first.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm just going back**  **5 to what the statute said that said use the**  **6 2015 IECC as the basis. So, that is how I**  **7 come to why would Manual J and Manual S not**  **8 work.**  **9 And I believe that -- and I can walk**  **10 down the hall and ask the team that does the**  **11 REScheck, I'm pretty sure REScheck runs a**  **12 Manual J calculation in the background.**  **13 MR. SANTANA: Yes.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: So, when you do do,**  **15 when you do complete REScheck, you are**  **16 effectively doing a Manual J and a Manual S.**  **17 It is just way easier to use that software.**  **18 But I can verify that over the lunch break and**  **19 get that answer back to everybody.**  **20 MR. SANTANA: Yes, because what I**  **21 don't know, you know I am familiar with the**  **22 HUD's heat loss calculation and I am familiar** 

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### 1 with the Manual J calculation but not in**2 depth. But I have never really done a 3 comparison of evidence. I know that the PNNL**  **4 count was tailor made in that sense for the 5 HUD Code. And I would be concerned, I would**  **6 like to see how they contrast first, just to 7 make sure we are not going to introduce any**  **8 issues unwittingly. 9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So, do we need**  **10 that information that Joe could get between 11 now and after lunch?**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: And I can ask. This 13 is Joe Hagerman, DOE. I can ask PNNL over**  **14 email. They could probably give me a quick 15 answer on the difference between the two and**  **16 what the recommendation would be, which would 17 probably be wise to do.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, well then 19 let's go ahead and table this. Can you do**  **20 that at lunch? 21 MR. HAGERMAN: I can do that. I**  **22 mean they have to respond. I don't know how**

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### 1 quickly they are going to respond. **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so I guess we 3 will table it for after lunch or sometime**  **4 tomorrow. 5 Who is on the phone?**  **6 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike 7 Lubliner.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Michael. 9 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, Just want to**  **10 point out that they do a worst case scenario 11 when they don't know what the orientation of**  **12 the home is. They will get like a large 13 subdivision and some of the homes will be in**  **14 different directions. So, often they will do 15 a worst-case scenario for the sizing and that**  **16 is something that could be done here as well 17 since we don't know necessarily the**  **18 orientation of the home when it is finally 19 set.**  **20 I support Joe getting more 21 information from PNNL on this.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LUBLINER: I think it is going**  **2 to come down to probably halving the rule from**  **3 1000 to 500 in the sizing of the per square**  **4 foot, BTUs per square foot but we will see.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Mike. So, we**  **6 will table that until Joe has the numbers from**  **7 PNNL.**  **8 Manny, is there anything else that**  **9 you have for us?**  **10 MR. SANTANA: No, that concludes the**  **11 recommendations by the subcommittee.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Again, I**  **13 want to thank you Manny and the subcommittee**  **14 for doing all that work and those product**  **15 tests that you undertook there. So, thank**  **16 you.**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, and who were the**  **18 members of the committee again?**  **19 MR. SANTANA: It was Mark Ezzo,**  **20 Eric, Bert, Luby, and Mark Weiss.**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, we especially**  **22 want to thank you all.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Then, I**  **2 think it is 11:30. Do we want to go ahead**  **3 and break for lunch early? Then that way when**  **4 we come back we could get into Emanuel Levy's**  **5 straw man, instead of starting for half an**  **6 hour and breaking?**  **7 Okay, great. So, let's go ahead and**  **8 do that and we will start back up at 12:30.**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: Emanuel, you know we**  **10 put on the agenda for Matthew to discuss his**  **11 LCC for 15 to 20 minutes before you talk. Do**  **12 you think that is necessary or do you think it**  **13 is easier just to dive into your proposal?**  **14 MR. LEVY: I actually took some of**  **15 his data and I embedded it into the proposal.**  **16 We can come back to -- we could do that. I'm**  **17 not sure it would help in the beginning. It**  **18 may help coming back to it later.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: So, let's do that.**  **20 Let's go ahead and just go with Emanuel first**  **21 and then we will revisit whether we need to**  **22 talk to --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: When we get back, you**  **2 can fill in any holes.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Just everybody, and**  **4 maybe Emanuel when you present your proposal,**  **5 maybe if you could just at the very beginning**  **6 talk through how you incorporated Matthew's**  **7 LCC analysis in the PNNL energy analysis just**  **8 so everybody feels comfortable with the inputs**  **9 that you started with.**  **10 MR. LEVY: I will.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great. Thank**  **12 you.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: So, we will see you at**  **14 12:30.**  **15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **16 matter went off the record at 11:29 a.m. and**  **17 resumed at 12:31 p.m.)**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: We're back online,**  **19 ready for Emanuel.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, what I would ask**  **21 -- let me ask. Emanuel, are you ready to go?**  **22 MR. LEVY: Yes.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: I think he said yes.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, I'm sorry. I**  **3 didn't hear him.**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: Did you say yes?**  **5 MR. LEVY: I said yes.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great. And so**  **7 before you get started, I would just ask to**  **8 allow Emanuel to go through the report here**  **9 and then we can come back and ask any**  **10 clarification questions. And then we can try**  **11 to focus on discussion on any areas that may**  **12 be what I will call heartburn, instead of**  **13 trying to analyze the entire chart.**  **14 Also with the idea that we have done**  **15 a few of these runs now and I think Joe made**  **16 the point earlier that it seems like the**  **17 needle isn't moving very much. So, we might**  **18 have found the area, the neighborhood that we**  **19 need to be in.**  **20 So with that, Emanuel, whenever you**  **21 are ready, go ahead and get started.**  **22 MR. LEVY: Okay. Can you hear me** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 all right?**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Yes, we can.**  **3 MR. LEVY: Okay. So, I spent the**  **4 last few days since the last meeting looking**  **5 at the question of what the thermal**  **6 requirements might be in the mapping strategy**  **7 and number of related issues. And I kind of**  **8 said to myself, the goal had five parts to it.**  **9 One was to develop the methodology for**  **10 identifying the thermal envelope targets, and**  **11 in other words saying that the Uo values that**  **12 the industry used to are based initially on**  **13 the 2015 IECC. So the first primary goal is**  **14 to come up with a set of performance targets.**  **15 Uo value performance targets.**  **16 Secondly, I wanted to try to suggest**  **17 a way to resolve the mapping strategy, based**  **18 upon the three-zone HUD maps but reflecting**  **19 the variations and the characteristics of the**  **20 IECC map, which is an eight-zone map, and have**  **21 those two overlay and resolve the differences**  **22 between those.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Then I wanted to test the results,**  **2 based upon the life cycle cost information**  **3 that we had and, as Javier mentioned worked**  **4 back and forth a little bit with Matthew and**  **5 I will talk a little bit about how his results**  **6 came into impact what I did and modify the Uo**  **7 results that I had initially based upon the**  **8 LCC results.**  **9 I wanted to consider more fully and**  **10 broadly the affordability criterion beyond**  **11 life cycle cost. Manny, you will see how that**  **12 figures into what I am going to suggest.**  **13 And lastly, I wanted to, based upon**  **14 the results of this now, this articulated**  **15 prescriptive alternative path that is quote,**  **16 unquote equivalent from an energy standpoint**  **17 to the overall U value and Uo value results so**  **18 that we have at least two paths for compliance**  **19 that are mathematically, or at least from an**  **20 energy consumption standpoint, equivalent.**  **21 So, those are the five goals that I**  **22 set out to try to achieve. And I will make** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 some caveats because there is a bit of math**  **2 here. I got involved into a procedure that**  **3 involved a bunch of different calculations**  **4 that I will go through very quickly. I have**  **5 noticed that there are some tweaks that I am**  **6 going to want to make predicated on the**  **7 feedback from the working group on what is**  **8 here. So, there are some areas of math which**  **9 I am going to go back and revise but they**  **10 probably don't have a substantial impact, at**  **11 least I don't think, on their results but**  **12 there are probably some math issues here to be**  **13 dealt with.**  **14 And I also made some decisions on a**  **15 number of assumptions that will be subject to**  **16 the base. That is, I picked up on some issues**  **17 that needed some decision-making. I made a**  **18 decision on those but they are certainly**  **19 debatable and I will point those out as I go**  **20 through.**  **21 So, before I get into the**  **22 presentations, are there any questions about** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 what my goal is or what I was trying to**  **2 achieve here?**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: I think you are good**  **4 to go.**  **5 MR. LEVY: Okay, good. So, open the**  **6 screen. This is a little analysis that I will**  **7 come back to but I wanted to explain right up**  **8 front.**  **9 Typically in the past when we have**  **10 been involved in these kinds of standard**  **11 setting issues with Energy, we have used what**  **12 is called a marginal approach, which is to**  **13 look at each individual measure that is**  **14 available for consideration and individual**  **15 measures, R22 in the ceiling, for example, and**  **16 look at the relative cost benefit of each**  **17 measure individual and look at them relative**  **18 to each other. And this is important for a**  **19 couple of reasons. One of which is it tells**  **20 you what the relative merits are of doing**  **21 certain things. And the way I have put this**  **22 table together is I have simply listed, and if** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you just scroll down to the bottom of the**  **2 table just to get a sense, to make sense of**  **3 what we are talking about here.**  **4 I have listed out here all of the**  **5 options we are considering. And for each**  **6 option, if you scroll back up anywhere in the**  **7 table, it doesn't really matter, you will**  **8 notice that I have looked at each of the**  **9 measures that are possible on a marginal**  **10 basis, that is, I have said that R22 ceiling**  **11 is our baseline. And the question is, is R30**  **12 cost-effective. And the way you would look at**  **13 that is you look at the cost, which is in the**  **14 fourth column there and you see the difference**  **15 in cost between the 30 and 22, which is**  **16 $409.30. So, you have the differential in**  **17 cost and that is for the single section**  **18 analysis data from a double section which is**  **19 right next door.**  **20 So, you have the incremental change,**  **21 we have discussed this at the last meeting,**  **22 going from level to level. And you also have** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the difference in the U value, which is in the**  **2 second column in which you go from in the 22**  **3 case, 0.061 to the 0.045 in the 30 case. So**  **4 you see what the change in the U value is.**  **5 You see what the change in cost is.**  **6 And the U value, it is important to**  **7 understand is proportional to the energy use,**  **8 not perfectly proportional but a pretty good**  **9 flier for what the relationship is. So the**  **10 lower the U value, generally the lower the**  **11 energy use. This is a location independent**  **12 conduct that is going from 0.061 to 0.045 is**  **13 going to reduce energy use in a certain**  **14 proportion and that is going to reduce energy**  **15 use by more than going from 0.061 to 0.050,**  **16 for example.**  **17 The amount of exact reduction in**  **18 energy use is going to be a functional**  **19 location, obviously, in weather conditions and**  **20 a bunch of other things. But what I set out**  **21 to do is just look at the change in U value,**  **22 relative to the change in cost because that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 gave me a sense of how much bang I was getting**  **2 for each buck I was spending for that measure.**  **3 And then I created in the last four**  **4 columns, three of the last four columns, a**  **5 ratio of those figures. I took the delta U,**  **6 the difference in the U value from 22 to 30**  **7 and the delta dollars, going from 22 to 30,**  **8 and divided one by the other to give me a**  **9 ratio. And this ratio, in the case of the**  **10 single section homes is 036; in the case of**  **11 the double section is 032; average, simple**  **12 average are 034. That means that that ratio**  **13 gives me a sense of what kind of value I am**  **14 getting for that change from 22 to 30.**  **15 The change of 30 to 38 costs a**  **16 little bit less but it has less of an impact**  **17 in U value. So, the ratio is less. What that**  **18 means is there is lesser value in going from**  **19 30 to 38 then there was going from 22 to 30.**  **20 So, the value in going through this**  **21 exercise is you can develop these ratios for**  **22 each of the measures that you are thinking** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 about. And once you have all of those average**  **2 figures, 034, 021, 015, and you do that for**  **3 all your measures, you can start to prioritize**  **4 all of the measures that you have available to**  **5 you and decide which ones are going to give**  **6 you the best value.**  **7 And if you were going through a life**  **8 cycle cost analysis, you would add them in**  **9 that order, that sequence column, the last**  **10 column there. You would start to add your**  **11 measures in that order, until you reach the**  **12 point in which one more measure gave you**  **13 negative value. And you have to do this by**  **14 location to know at what point you reach that**  **15 point.**  **16 So, you can see that the first thing**  **17 you would do, and if you would stop right**  **18 there in the table, the first thing you would**  **19 do in this whole list is you would go to the**  **20 baseline of R11 floor and R13 floor. That is**  **21 the most cost-effective item on the list. So,**  **22 that is going to give you the best bang for** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the buck. That is going to have the best life**  **2 cycle cost relationship. That is the thing**  **3 you are going to do first.**  **4 There is a little more interest to**  **5 this than I am kind of getting into here but**  **6 generally, that is the approach that you would**  **7 use for doing this. If we had a lot more**  **8 resources and a lot more time, we would go**  **9 through this exercise and then implement these**  **10 things for a whole bunch of different**  **11 locations than PNL and NCI would do tens of**  **12 thousands of runs and we would have excellent**  **13 data on which to base our analysis and that is**  **14 how we would come up with our numbers. Or at**  **15 least that is one way we can come up with our**  **16 numbers.**  **17 But I did this as a starting point**  **18 because I wanted to get a feeling for what are**  **19 the things that we have in our packages that**  **20 are giving us value and what things are not**  **21 giving us value.**  **22 So, that is the context. I will** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 come back to the stable in a few minutes to**  **2 explain how it fits in. Are there any**  **3 questions about the table?**  **4 MR. UNGAR: Yes, before you leave**  **5 the table, Emanuel, this is Lowell. I**  **6 understand what you said and it makes sense to**  **7 me, at least as a rough metric. What I didn't**  **8 understand was the math when I tried to look.**  **9 If you go to the top of the table, what I**  **10 tried to, for 22 and ceiling -- I'm sorry --**  **11 for 30 and ceiling I get a difference of 0.16**  **12 in total U and a difference of $400,000,000.30**  **13 for delta dollar sign. And when I divide one**  **14 by the other, I don't actually get 0.036. So,**  **15 I am confused as to the math you are doing**  **16 there.**  **17 MR. LEVY: Well, the exact math flow**  **18 is you subtract the U from the U, the dollar**  **19 from the dollar, and you multiply it by the**  **20 square footage of that component area.**  **21 MR. UNGAR: Oh.**  **22 MR. LEVY: So, you have to multiply** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it by the ceiling area overlay.**  **2 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **3 MR. UNGAR: But the Uo is not the --**  **4 it won't do that for you.**  **5 MR. LEVY: That is not the U value.**  **6 MR. UNGAR: Total U times ceiling**  **7 times the area.**  **8 MR. LEVY: Yes.**  **9 MR. UNGAR: Thanks.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: And that area number**  **11 is not on the chart?**  **12 MR. LEVY: It is not on the chart**  **13 and I can provide it but you have that -- that**  **14 is the base condition that we looked at last**  **15 time. I'm not sure I included that but we**  **16 have handed that out to the committee before.**  **17 It is about 1,068 square feet, I think for the**  **18 single section and a little bit less for the**  **19 double section, something in that range.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. I**  **21 think the note where he says psf there, per**  **22 square foot, that is where he calls that out.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But I have a question for you,**  **2 Emanuel, real quick. What climate is this one**  **3 example run at?**  **4 MR. LEVY: This is climate**  **5 independent, Joe. It had to do with the U**  **6 value of the component. The only thing we are**  **7 looking for here is what change in U value --**  **8 let's first of all let's agree to a great**  **9 extent this is not perfect, that the U value**  **10 is proportional energy use, not perfect**  **11 because there is a pull on the cooling side.**  **12 It is not exactly the way things work but it**  **13 is a pretty good flier for putting these**  **14 things in order was my main goal.**  **15 U value is independent acquiring.**  **16 So, I am not actually looking at energy use**  **17 here but as a metric that will give me a**  **18 proportional relationship of energy use that**  **19 is consistent across all of the measures.**  **20 MR. UNGAR: Okay, you have answered**  **21 me. I'm crystal clear now on what this is.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Emanuel, hold on one** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 quick second. Could the folks that are**  **2 online, if you are not contributing something**  **3 at the moment, could you mute your phones,**  **4 please?**  **5 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **6 Lubliner.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael?**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: This looks good,**  **9 Emanuel. I had a couple of questions on the**  **10 assumptions that are going into the costs, the**  **11 incremental costs data. Is there somewhere**  **12 that that is documented? For example, like**  **13 for the ceiling options, going from R22 to**  **14 R30, are we talking about just the material,**  **15 the extra R8 material or is this all of a**  **16 sudden requiring that you now have baffles, or**  **17 is it requiring that you change your trusses?**  **18 Are those details documented somewhere so we**  **19 can review those at some point?**  **20 MR. LEVY: Yes. So, the question**  **21 Mike had is there backup substantiation for**  **22 these costs and any U values, for that matter.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 That was provided, Mike, in the last meeting,**  **2 if you remember those extensive tables we had**  **3 each of the components and a description of**  **4 what went into each component level. We**  **5 provided those at the last meeting.**  **6 MR. LUBLINER: So, then I will just**  **7 ask specifically, at what point do you start**  **8 throwing baffling costs in it, R30 or R38? Or**  **9 are they not included for the ceiling options?**  **10 MR. LEVY: You know, the full list**  **11 of all the measures were included and we can**  **12 dig into those, if you like. But let me go**  **13 through this presentation first because in the**  **14 context of this, that is kind of a detail.**  **15 MR. LUBLINER: I was trying to --**  **16 very good. Thank you.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get quick**  **18 questions from Mark and Eric and then I would**  **19 really like for him to get through it.**  **20 MR. WEISS: I'm sorry. Just very**  **21 quickly. Emanuel, Mark Weiss, MHA. Can you**  **22 just remind me the dollar numbers you have** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 reflected up there? Is that just material**  **2 costs or does that include labor and overhead?**  **3 I know you factored in the markup for retail.**  **4 I remember that from last time.**  **5 MR. LEVY: Yes, so the markup to**  **6 retail should include everything, Mark,**  **7 including labor.**  **8 MR. WEISS: Okay, thank you.**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: I think we defined**  **10 that earlier as the total cost to the**  **11 consumer. The all-in costs.**  **12 MR. LEVY: Correct.**  **13 MR. WEISS: Thanks, I appreciate it.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that take care of**  **15 your question, Eric?**  **16 MR. LACEY: No. This is Eric from**  **17 RECA. You know I am going to ask this and I**  **18 probably already know the answer but you**  **19 didn't include in any of these calculations**  **20 the impact of solar gain. This is just a U**  **21 factor calculation.**  **22 MR. LEVY: That's right.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LACEY: Okay.**  **2 MR. LEVY: And that, Eric, is really**  **3 one of the things I am alluding to about U**  **4 value not being a perfect metric to use.**  **5 MR. LACEY: Okay.**  **6 MR. LEVY: It gets a little bit more**  **7 multi-dimensional when you start considering**  **8 solar heat gain. And there are some other**  **9 things like that.**  **10 But when you see how I am using this**  **11 later on, you will recognize that it is not**  **12 that critical and we are spending actually**  **13 more time on it, probably, than it deserves in**  **14 the context of the overall presentation. But**  **15 yes, this is not a perfect measure. It is**  **16 just one way to begin to look at the analysis.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So with that,**  **18 go ahead and continue.**  **19 MR. LEVY: Okay, so let's go to page**  **20 two. At page two, can we reduce that? Yes,**  **21 great. Okay, this you have seen before.**  **22 Again, this was handed out last week. This is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 taking the table in I guess it is 402.1.1 in**  **2 the IECC standard and transposing the R value**  **3 label, the equivalent construction for**  **4 manufactured housing. So, this is pretty much**  **5 the table right out of IECC with equivalents**  **6 for each of the insulation levels, with the**  **7 exception that we set the room maximum at 38**  **8 because it was impossible to get to 49, follow**  **9 the rules in the IECC. So, that is the one**  **10 change you will see in this table, that we**  **11 only go to 38 in the ceiling. And that**  **12 particularly is for zones 4 through 8, which**  **13 would have been 49. So, those have been set**  **14 to 38.**  **15 But this is a table that you saw**  **16 last week. And again, I am sharing this table**  **17 because it is where I started with my**  **18 analysis. And you can see on the far right**  **19 the column that says Uo value. That is the**  **20 corresponding Uo value that we calculated for**  **21 those packages that they would be implemented**  **22 for manufactured housing.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Okay, we will come back to this**  **2 table in a few minutes, so don't worry about**  **3 the specifics. All right, keep going. Go to**  **4 three.**  **5 All right, also here you see the map**  **6 which we looked at last week in which we have**  **7 overlaid the HUD zones with the IECC zones.**  **8 And there is a couple of things to look at on**  **9 this, which is, of course, if they don't**  **10 exactly match up but there is some coherence**  **11 among the zones. As you would expect, it is**  **12 not perfect. There is some -- if we start**  **13 with a premise and again, this is the premise**  **14 that we can debate as to whether it is**  **15 something we want to stay with or not, that we**  **16 want our final standard to be used in the HUD**  **17 3 HUD zones.**  **18 This is the dark line, the bold line**  **19 you see running the map shows the distinction**  **20 of each of the zones and the specific**  **21 requirements that they have to meet today.**  **22 So, HUD 1, which is a federal location, takes** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 us over to South Carolina, has a current Uo**  **2 value requirement at 116, 2 is 096, which is**  **3 that band you see going across the country in**  **4 northern zone, in Zone 3.**  **5 And if you look at how they cohere**  **6 with the IECC zones, you will notice a couple**  **7 of things that are rather important in terms**  **8 of what I will be talking about next. In**  **9 particular, in HUD Zone 1, HUD Zone 1 has in**  **10 it parts of IECC Zones 1, 2, 3, and 4; 1 is**  **11 the Miami area, 2 is the red area, 3 is the**  **12 brown area, 4 is the yellow area. But what**  **13 you will notice is that HUD Zone 1**  **14 predominately 2 and 3, the red and brown**  **15 areas. So, where virtually all the homes are**  **16 going in Zone 1 is either in what corresponds**  **17 to IECC Zones 2 and 3. That should be pretty**  **18 evident, just graphically from what is up**  **19 there.**  **20 By the same token, if you look at**  **21 HUD Zone 2, it primarily consists of 3 and 4**  **22 and a little bit of 5, which is the brown, the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 yellow, and the green. So, that will give you**  **2 a sense of what are the prominent overlaps**  **3 between the zones. And in HUD 3, you get a**  **4 real mix going anywhere from 4 up to in the**  **5 newer 7, 7/8. So, keep that in mind as we go**  **6 to the next slide. Any questions on that?**  **7 Okay, now, things get a little bit**  **8 hairy here. What I try to do is then map this**  **9 in terms of dollars. The first column are the**  **10 IECC Zones. The second third and fourth**  **11 column are corresponding overlaps with the HUD**  **12 Zone. So, what I mean exactly is that if you**  **13 look at HUD Zone 1, which is that second**  **14 column, you will notice that the corresponding**  **15 intersection with IECC Zone 1 and 4 are gray**  **16 areas and the corresponding intersection of**  **17 HUD Zone 1 and 2 and 3 of IECC is emphasized**  **18 with black with a white 1 in the middle of it.**  **19 What that means is that there is a profound**  **20 overlap between HUD Zone 1 and IECC 2 and 3**  **21 and only a modest overlap or a small overlap**  **22 with 1 and 4. Is that clear for everyone?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 This is what I mean in terms of the overlap of**  **2 the zones.**  **3 By the same token, you will that for**  **4 2 and 3 I have also mapped the overlaps with**  **5 the profound overlaps are and where the more**  **6 modest overlaps are.**  **7 Okay, having done that, I then went**  **8 back to the dollars. And I said okay just for**  **9 the profound overlaps because we have to come**  **10 up with a methodology that is somewhat simple**  **11 and straightforward, just for the profound**  **12 overlaps what the costs impact.**  **13 So, the cost of going from a house**  **14 that is in HUD Zone 1 to the requirements in**  **15 IECC Zone 2 is $2,000.46. See that**  **16 intersection? So, basically the same pattern**  **17 is followed in the next three columns. That**  **18 number that the cursor is on right now, the**  **19 $2,000.46, that is the cost of going from HUD**  **20 1 to IECC Zone 2. That is why it is in that**  **21 box.**  **22 So, I have just mapped out, dollar-** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 wise, where the profound overlaps are between**  **2 zones and what the cost impact is of going**  **3 from HUD up to the IECC requirements. Is**  **4 everyone following that? Okay.**  **5 Now, if you will just go up a little**  **6 bit on this page, okay. Coming back to the**  **7 issue about affordability and other metrics**  **8 that define affordability. I also wanted to**  **9 consider what the impact was on cost. And I**  **10 know this has been an issue that we have**  **11 debated and discussed at some length, so I**  **12 took a shot at it, at trying to evaluate how**  **13 we might work that information and looked at**  **14 the single section, average cost nationwide of**  **15 single section home which is $42,200, which is**  **16 that number at the top of the table. So,**  **17 $42,200 is the average cost of the single**  **18 section in the country. And I set as a rule,**  **19 and of course this was my take on it, I am not**  **20 going to allow the cost of the package,**  **21 whatever the cost of reaching the package that**  **22 is going to be in the standard to be more than** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 five percent increase over the cost of the**  **2 home and that is why I took five percent of**  **3 $42,200 and ended up with $21,010.**  **4 So, I set as a rule, and of course,**  **5 this is a debatable that the cost of the**  **6 package could not be more than $21,010. And**  **7 then I went back into the table and wherever**  **8 there was a number that was larger than**  **9 $21,010, I grayed out that cell. So, just**  **10 where the cursor is, the $2,750 dropped out to**  **11 those $3,000 figures. So, follow through the**  **12 rest of the tables.**  **13 And I said okay, those are too much.**  **14 I am just going to focus on where the costs**  **15 are less met and what the corresponding U sub**  **16 o values are from the prior table on page two**  **17 and those are the ones that are now listed in**  **18 the columns that you can see the cursor on**  **19 right now.**  **20 So, the $2,046 corresponds to a U**  **21 sub o value, IECC Uo value of 0.085. For the**  **22 two figures that are below $21,010 in Zone 2,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 they are both 0.067 and for the two that are**  **2 in 3 are 0.067 and 0.059.**  **3 Just to finish out this page, if you**  **4 scroll down a bit, do the same thing for**  **5 double section home, same thinking. And then**  **6 what I did is I simply took the Uo values from**  **7 each of the HUD zones and I came up with a**  **8 simple average down at the bottom, those are**  **9 the U sub o values that I landed on as the**  **10 average for those recommended U sub o's for**  **11 those zones before what are called**  **12 adjustments. And I will talk about**  **13 adjustments in a second. So, let me just stop**  **14 there and see if I completely confused**  **15 everybody.**  **16 Are there any questions?**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Looks like you are**  **18 good.**  **19 MR. LEVY: Mike Lubliner has got a**  **20 question or a comment, I guess.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Michael.**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: It seems like that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that five percent is an arbitrary number. I**  **2 think that the methodology is excellent. I**  **3 like what you have done. I understand what**  **4 you have done. But it seems like -- where do**  **5 we get the five percent from?**  **6 It seems like what I was thinking we**  **7 were doing here is going through and I**  **8 understand this is a straw man and the five**  **9 percent is what is driving the straw man. I**  **10 thought what we were going to be doing is**  **11 looking at the IECC, which I think you have**  **12 done, as is, look at the costs and then**  **13 determine whether or not they are lowest life**  **14 cycle costs. In other words, the package is**  **15 cost-effective because the life cycle costs as**  **16 a whole are lower than the current practice.**  **17 So, the five percent seems to take**  **18 us off the path of that approach. And I am**  **19 interested in seeing how it comes out. So,**  **20 just an observation there and a question. How**  **21 did you come up with the five percent,**  **22 Emanuel?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LEVY: As I said in the**  **2 beginning, I picked a number that I thought,**  **3 intuitively. It would be great to get,**  **4 particularly, the input of the committee that**  **5 is dealing with these kinds of metrics as to**  **6 what they set. But yes, it is a separate**  **7 issue from life cycle costs. It is a second**  **8 consideration.**  **9 It is acknowledging the fact that**  **10 life cycle costs may not come up with figures**  **11 that in the end are necessarily affordable.**  **12 So, I try to bring in, by interjecting this**  **13 cap on the total possible cost of the package.**  **14 You know that the level of pain, if you will,**  **15 that the customer is willing to endure in the**  **16 energy package.**  **17 I try to inject some idea of -- you**  **18 know one other considerations that might be**  **19 worth to table, without ignoring the life**  **20 cycle costs, I will come back to, by the way,**  **21 I will come back to life cycle costs later on**  **22 and talk about how that might come into play.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But yes, it is a separate item. The five**  **2 percent was kind of more of an experiential**  **3 consideration than anything else but that is**  **4 certainly something that should be open for**  **5 debate and discussion.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Robin.**  **7 MR. ROY: This is Robin. Thanks,**  **8 Emanuel. This is all very helpful.**  **9 I guess to sort of follow-up on**  **10 Luby's five percent question, I have to say I**  **11 have been thinking about affordability in**  **12 terms of for all the buyers in the homes, so**  **13 that is like a 30-year life cycle cost of this**  **14 product. And the other perspective that I**  **15 found to be needful in my own thinking about**  **16 it and kind of get a handle on affordability**  **17 is the perspective of the first buyer. And**  **18 for that, we are looking what is the average.**  **19 Ten years. What is the resale recapture. We**  **20 have some numbers for that. So, I quite like**  **21 the types of economic analysis that Navigant**  **22 has been putting together to look at those two** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 different perspectives; first buyer's**  **2 perspective, all owners' perspective over**  **3 time.**  **4 I see what you are doing with the**  **5 five percent. It is a simplification and it**  **6 is handy for it. I just think maybe it is**  **7 something that draws me in. I much more**  **8 interested in that first buyer's perspective**  **9 by a great deal.**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner**  **11 and I didn't hear anything. That was a bunch**  **12 of echo on my end. I think it was Robin that**  **13 was talking.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, you want to give**  **15 him the headline version?**  **16 MR. ROY: I'm not sure that is going**  **17 to change anything. How am I going to do**  **18 that?**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Did Emanuel hear?**  **20 Emanuel did you hear it?**  **21 MR. LEVY: I heard most of it.**  **22 MR. ROY: Okay. Luby, can you hear** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this? I'm afraid it will not help to say it**  **2 again.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Luby, how is the sound**  **4 now?**  **5 MR. LUBLINER: Still echoes.**  **6 Somebody must have their -- is not muting that**  **7 is on the phone.**  **8 MR. ROY: Well I shall do a one and**  **9 a half minute echo because that is about how**  **10 long ago I said this the first time. Sorry,**  **11 that was a stupid joke for the people in the**  **12 room and not for the folks out there who are**  **13 suffering through bad IT.**  **14 My view -- I appreciate what you are**  **15 doing, Emanuel, and it is very helpful in**  **16 simplifying and trying to come up with some**  **17 numbers. But from my perspective, I have been**  **18 trying to understand what is a meaningful**  **19 affordability metric. And I quite like the**  **20 approach that is reflected in the Navigant**  **21 economic analyses, which is looking at two**  **22 different types of cost-effectiveness. One,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the cost-effectiveness from the perspective of**  **2 all buyers over the life of the product, so**  **3 the 30-year perspective. And the other**  **4 perspective, which is from the first buyer's**  **5 financial perspective.**  **6 So, I think they have been using ten**  **7 years. We seem to have come to rely on that**  **8 was not a bad number to use. Ten years and**  **9 some kind of resale or recapture properly**  **10 discounted. To me, it is more meaningful than**  **11 just the first cost. That is really what that**  **12 first buyer is going to be facing. It is**  **13 really what is going to be a more defensible**  **14 definition of cost effectiveness than the five**  **15 percent.**  **16 The first buyer's perspective sounds**  **17 like a very good definition of cost**  **18 effectiveness that I think that DOE could**  **19 support.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Well,**  **21 let's hear what else -- I'm sorry. Michael,**  **22 were you able to hear that?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Maybe not. Emanuel, were you able**  **2 to hear that?**  **3 MR. LACEY: Yes, I could hear it**  **4 perfectly.**  **5 MR. KESSLER: This is Bert. For**  **6 what it is worth, I heard just fine.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, thanks, Bert.**  **8 Lowell, you had something?**  **9 MR. UNGAR: Yes, there are two**  **10 things, one in response to Robin. Another**  **11 affordability metric, it seems to me one that**  **12 has been used in the codes world is a cash**  **13 flow analysis. If the buyer is effectively**  **14 paying a down payment upfront and getting each**  **15 month a little bit more back in energy than**  **16 they are presumably paying on their mortgage,**  **17 how long does it take for the energy savings**  **18 to pay back what they put into the down**  **19 payment? So, how long is it until they come**  **20 out ahead on a cash flow basis? That might be**  **21 one more way of looking at the affordability.**  **22 What I really wanted, actually, was** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a question to Emanuel. If we take a five**  **2 percent cap, which I also have some problems**  **3 with, why wouldn't we just apply a five**  **4 percent cap? What you are doing is looking at**  **5 a bunch of numbers, taking those which are**  **6 five percent or less, and then averaging all**  **7 of those that are five percent or less.**  **8 If we were putting a cap, I would**  **9 think we would go up to the five percent limit**  **10 and just use the whatever package, whatever**  **11 efficiency we can get that is within that five**  **12 percent cap.**  **13 MR. LEVY: Yes, we can do that.**  **14 That would be easy enough to do. For example,**  **15 in IECC's Zone 6, in the single sections where**  **16 it is grayed out, if the cap is $2,100, we can**  **17 see how much conservation or how much**  **18 efficiency we can buy for $2,100 and what Uo**  **19 value that gives us. And that would modify**  **20 the results somewhat. I don't know exactly**  **21 how much.**  **22 And if we took the cap away** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 entirely, by the way, and just included**  **2 everything where there is a profound**  **3 intersection of zones, if that methodology is**  **4 acceptable, again, it will change the results**  **5 somewhat. I don't think it will change them**  **6 dramatically but it will change them somewhat.**  **7 And we could look at all of those.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark and then Eric.**  **9 MR. WEISS: Emanuel, just again, I**  **10 apologize, remind me. The cost you are using**  **11 is the average cost. That is the cash price,**  **12 correct?**  **13 MR. LEVY: That is correct.**  **14 MR. WEISS: Okay, thank you.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric.**  **16 MR. LACEY: Emanuel, it is Eric. I**  **17 hate to pile on on your five percent. I**  **18 realize it is kind of a simplification but one**  **19 thing that is not reflected here if I am**  **20 understanding this is the amount of energy**  **21 saved from one zone to the next. It may be**  **22 that in some of these grayed out zones, there** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 is a significant amount of energy being saved,**  **2 even though it goes beyond the five percent.**  **3 There is not an accounting for that in this**  **4 particular table, right?**  **5 MR. LEVY: You are asking if you**  **6 exclude, for example, the Zone 7 and you say**  **7 that there is no -- let me just make sure I**  **8 understand what you are saying. We have not**  **9 included the Zone 7 and Uo value calculation.**  **10 You can see that the average for the zone**  **11 right now is 0.061 for Zone 3. That is an**  **12 aggregate of all the numbers above.**  **13 If you go back up to the table on**  **14 page two, you will notice that if we add in 6**  **15 and 7 that adds in 0.053 and 0.051 or 0.056**  **16 and 0.050, depending on where you are. So,**  **17 what I am saying is, when you add those into**  **18 the mix, it will bring down the Uo value.**  **19 MR. LACEY: Yes, I guess that is**  **20 what --**  **21 MR. LEVY: It won't bring it down**  **22 dramatically. It is probably in the -- we are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 probably talking about two thousandths of a**  **2 difference in the Uo value.**  **3 MR. LACEY: That is part of what I**  **4 am asking. I guess going back to the Navigant**  **5 spreadsheet, Climate Zone 6 and especially 7**  **6 and 8 were highly cost-effective at the 20.15**  **7 IECC levels, if I remember that right.**  **8 MR. LEVY: Yes.**  **9 MR. LACEY: You know so yes, and**  **10 they cost more than five percent but on an**  **11 energy savings standpoint and from a payback**  **12 perspective, they were more cost-effective**  **13 than Climate Zones 2 and 3, for example, which**  **14 may come under the five percent cap that you**  **15 put here but may have a longer payback.**  **16 I just wanted to make sure I am**  **17 understanding. There is this simplification**  **18 here.**  **19 MR. LEVY: Yes, I mean I don't know**  **20 if I should get into this now but the Navigant**  **21 life cycle cost analysis looks at the total**  **22 package, I think as was mentioned earlier, in** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 going from, in this case, HUD package 3 up to**  **2 4, or 5, 6 and 7. So, each one of those is**  **3 looked at individually and, of course, the**  **4 fact that you have a big jump from current HUD**  **5 Zone 3 to what is in 7 or 6, 7, and 8 is just**  **6 a reflection of the fact that that is a huge**  **7 jump in energy efficiency from the baseline.**  **8 My point is we can include that but**  **9 in a practical matter in terms of impact and**  **10 U sub o value, it is probably only going to**  **11 change it by, when you average it all together**  **12 -- remember you are creating a zone, a Zone 3,**  **13 HUD Zone 3 which includes all of, includes**  **14 parts of 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8, mostly 4 and 5 and**  **15 6.**  **16 So, you have a huge zone in which**  **17 you are averaging things. And so those have**  **18 a lot of cost effectiveness to them but they**  **19 don't change the average U sub o value that**  **20 much. I guess that is the bottom line.**  **21 MR. LACEY: Okay.**  **22 MR. ROY: Emanuel, supposing you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 used the HUD Zones and mush together all these**  **2 things, including some which are extremely**  **3 cost-effective and some which are not, which**  **4 is one the challenges with the HUD Zone being**  **5 so spread across from the warm parts of**  **6 Virginia to the coldest, bitterest of the**  **7 nation's rural 48. It's one of the challenges**  **8 with it.**  **9 MR. LEVY: I couldn't have said it**  **10 better, Robin. That is exactly what I am**  **11 trying to.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay to move on?**  **13 MR. LEVY: Yes.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Does anybody have a**  **15 follow-up here?**  **16 MR. LACEY: Yes, this is Eric. I**  **17 hate to belabor this because again, I know**  **18 this is simplified. What you are including**  **19 here is the cost of getting to a specific U**  **20 sub o. And by including the Climate Zone 7**  **21 and 8, you are right, the U sub o numbers may**  **22 not change all that much but the payback** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 numbers may change significantly because there**  **2 is a lot more energy used in those climate**  **3 zones. Two houses could have the same U sub**  **4 o but there is a lot more energy used to heat**  **5 in Climate Zones 7 and 8 than there is in 4**  **6 and 5. You know, obviously, this table isn't**  **7 going to address that. But I just -- maybe I**  **8 was a little uncomfortable with the level of**  **9 simplification here but I understand why you**  **10 are looking at the five percent.**  **11 MR. ROY: To say it differently, a**  **12 person's winter wardrobe in Tidewater,**  **13 Virginia is probably different than a person's**  **14 winter wardrobe in Bismarck, North Dakota.**  **15 I'm just guessing but certainly is.**  **16 MR. LACEY: You get your money's**  **17 worth out of it in North Dakota.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I remember**  **19 correctly, the group also said that we were**  **20 going to look at the life cycle cost for ten**  **21 years and thirty years. So, if those are**  **22 going to be the runs the data is going to do.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, at some point if we need to look**  **2 at how do these numbers plug into those life**  **3 cycle costs, then that is something that**  **4 Matthew can hook up the computer later and we**  **5 can take a look at those. Okay?**  **6 So, prescriptive?**  **7 MR. LEVY: Not quite yet.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **9 MR. LEVY: I wasn't done and I**  **10 wanted to create a little bit more**  **11 controversy.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, go ahead.**  **13 MR. LEVY: All right, so let's go to**  **14 page five. To the panel, I have to say,**  **15 interject my view on the whole life cycle cost**  **16 base because I have a slightly different**  **17 perspective on it.**  **18 I think what Navigant has done is**  **19 really very valuable. It has given us a sense**  **20 of just how cost-effective certain things can**  **21 be under various economic conditions. But it**  **22 wasn't helpful in one respect in terms of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 doing this analysis because what I really**  **2 wanted to do and why I did the analysis on the**  **3 first page is understand what the marginal**  **4 benefits were. And what Navigant has done is**  **5 looked at the whole package of measures.**  **6 So, when we say together that going**  **7 from HUD Zone 3 to IECC Zone 7 is really cost**  **8 effective, almost regardless of what your**  **9 economic conditions are, we are looking at the**  **10 value of the whole package. And not**  **11 concerning the fact that the first couple of**  **12 things that have been added to the package**  **13 might be contributing in a disproportionate**  **14 way to the overall benefit that is figured in**  **15 the life cycle cost benefit.**  **16 So, the question I ask is,**  **17 specifically, if we can scroll up just a**  **18 little bit, I said okay, given what we have**  **19 seen, what I have discussed so far -- sorry.**  **20 Scroll down a bit. Given what we have seen**  **21 thus far, in terms of the analysis, the**  **22 question I ask is if you look at the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 individual measures and now that we have a**  **2 package of measures, if we look at the**  **3 individual measures, particularly R38 in the**  **4 ceiling in Zones 2, 3, and 4, is that measure**  **5 really cost-effective relative to R30?**  **6 And the reason I ask that question,**  **7 if you go all the way back to page one at this**  **8 point, the reason I asked whether 38 was cost**  **9 effective than an individual measures was if**  **10 you look at that relative sequence here, the**  **11 38 change has a sequence value of 15. It is**  **12 very low on the priority scale. Very bad**  **13 relative to other things. Very bad in terms**  **14 of payback.**  **15 So, I really wanted to understand**  **16 whether for those specific climates whether**  **17 going from 30 to 38 made sense.**  **18 And so then if you now go down to**  **19 page six, I asked Matthew to specifically run**  **20 that case to see whether -- to me, this is**  **21 where the tire meets the road -- whether R38**  **22 in place of 30 makes sense. And the figures** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that are -- sorry. It should say incremental**  **2 savings in the second column there.**  **3 So, for these four locations, these**  **4 are the IECC Zones 2 and 4, two different**  **5 locations in each, the savings for a single**  **6 section home going from 30 to 38 was $4 a**  **7 year, as I interpreted it, $5 a year for the**  **8 2B, 11 and 11. You can see what the**  **9 incremental savings, it should say, is and you**  **10 can see what the cost is. And then you can**  **11 also see what the simple payback is.**  **12 So, in the best case, unless I**  **13 misinterpreted these numbers, which is always**  **14 possible, in the best case you get a simple**  **15 payback of 12 years, in the worst case, almost**  **16 90 years, which to me is very suspect in terms**  **17 of whether that is a viable cost-effective**  **18 measure. And this to me is the real use of**  **19 life cycle cost analysis, not to find the**  **20 total life cycle cost benefit in which you can**  **21 make almost anything look good, but to look at**  **22 those things that are on the margin and say** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 from a customer standpoint, does it make**  **2 sense, once you are in R30 to invest in an**  **3 additional R8. And if these are the numbers,**  **4 one would have to say it doesn't make any**  **5 sense.**  **6 So, if you move back up to the page**  **7 five, I asked that question about three**  **8 different measures and of course you can go**  **9 farther into this analysis. And I said based**  **10 upon these results, I can't justify 38 in 2,**  **11 3, and 4.**  **12 So, on this table, I took those -- I**  **13 am sure we are going to have come comments**  **14 after this. So, I took the 38 out of those**  **15 three zones and I put in R30 because 38 was**  **16 just simply not cost-effective. And if we**  **17 stand behind cost-effective criterion, this is**  **18 the conclusion we have to come to, I think.**  **19 Before you make comments, let me**  **20 just go down to the next slide after this one**  **21 right here. I followed the same methodology,**  **22 made the changes for the R values that I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 indicated. And you can see after these**  **2 adjustments what the U values become, Uo**  **3 values, 0.085, 0.069, and 0.062, which is**  **4 about an increase, again, a modest increase of**  **5 0.002 over the other factors.**  **6 You can see that even changing some**  **7 of these assumptions were interjecting some of**  **8 this different way of thinking about the**  **9 economic balances has a modest impact in the**  **10 U sub o value.**  **11 Let me stop there and face the**  **12 consequences.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Robin.**  **14 MR. ROY: Emanuel, I think this is**  **15 very helpful. It is actually -- you wanted**  **16 controversy? This is controversy.**  **17 This is a question that has been**  **18 kind of weighing on me as well when it came to**  **19 38. I have also wondered about some of the**  **20 wall insulation in the milder climates. I'm**  **21 not talking about 5, 6, 7 but these milder**  **22 climates it seemed like it may be spending** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 more than you are getting value for. So, this**  **2 is very helpful in understanding that and I**  **3 have to say I am not terribly surprised but I**  **4 generally like the approach that you have**  **5 taken. That is my controversial reply.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark.**  **7 MR. WEISS: Emanuel, Mark Weiss,**  **8 MHAR. Is there any new and empirical data**  **9 reflected in this analysis that was not**  **10 included in the first one that you did? Or is**  **11 this effectively a refinement of the empirical**  **12 data you had previously?**  **13 MR. LEVY: You mean on the page**  **14 above, Mark?**  **15 MR. WEISS: In any of it.**  **16 MR. LEVY: Are you talking about**  **17 from the last meeting or from just the yearly**  **18 presentation?**  **19 MR. WEISS: From the last meeting.**  **20 MR. LEVY: So, this analysis**  **21 embodies the cost and the U values that were**  **22 presented at the last meeting.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. WEISS: Okay, so it is a**  **2 refinement.**  **3 MR. LEVY: Well, this was my taking**  **4 that information and from that developing a**  **5 recommended set of Uo values of performance**  **6 path and what the thinking was that led up to**  **7 that. And predicating on keeping with the HUD**  **8 Zones as they are today.**  **9 MR. WEISS: Okay, that answers my**  **10 question. Thank you.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric.**  **12 MR. LACEY: Emanuel, it is Eric.**  **13 First, a question. I am comparing your Uo**  **14 value analysis before adjustments, page four,**  **15 and the one that we are looking at, page**  **16 seven, and the average costs haven't changed**  **17 between the two. Is that a mistake or are**  **18 those supposed to be the same?**  **19 MR. WEISS: That is a mistake. I**  **20 didn't readjust. When I went down to 30, I**  **21 didn't readjust that cost.**  **22 MR. LACEY: Okay. I mean, I assumed** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 that some of those might go from gray to **2 black. Maybe not. They might get closer. 3 MR. LEVY: That's right. Well, not**  **4 so much the gray to black but where there is 5 black it might go -- I'm sorry. The numbers**  **6 maybe go from gray to black and that is what 7 I meant earlier, Eric, when I said the math**  **8 needs some tweaking. I started seeing those 9 things as I went back through this.**  **10 I don't think those will make a 11 substantial change but there needs to be some**  **12 revisiting of the math throughout the entire 13 analysis, actually.**  **14 MR. LACEY: Okay. I guess maybe a 15 --**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second. 17 Eric has another comment.**  **18 MR. LACEY: I wasn't going to throw 19 my controversial comment in. I didn't think**  **20 Robin's was all that controversial. 21 MR. ROY: Well, it will be just not**  **22 with Emanuel.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (Laughter.)**  **2 MR. LACEY: I guess I am not a huge**  **3 fan of picking individual increments and**  **4 pitting them one against the other in terms of**  **5 cost-effectiveness and so on because so much**  **6 of this depends on the assumptions that are**  **7 made in the life cycle cost analysis and I**  **8 have been messing around with it and very**  **9 minor tweaks in these assumptions completely**  **10 change the outlook on the back end.**  **11 And so I get what you are trying to**  **12 do and it may be that there are some measures**  **13 that are so radically cost ineffective that it**  **14 makes sense to change those, especially in**  **15 light of our requirement to make it**  **16 affordable.**  **17 On the other hand, I hate to see us**  **18 dragged down into a measure versus measure**  **19 analysis on every single thing. I think**  **20 trying to find the absolute most single cost**  **21 effective level for every single component.**  **22 Because I think with a few tweaks in the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 assumptions, those can completely change.**  **2 MR. LEVY: Eric, I agree with you**  **3 except I was a little surprised looking at the**  **4 38 to 30 change that that was so cost**  **5 ineffective, you would have to have a pretty**  **6 big difference in your assumptions to make up**  **7 the difference.**  **8 So, I agree that when things are on**  **9 the cusp, you have to really be diligent about**  **10 your evaluation. And that, of course, goes**  **11 true for even when you look at the whole**  **12 package. As I was seeing from the Navigant**  **13 analysis, changing your assumption on the**  **14 period of analysis does change things**  **15 dramatically. This is what we live with when**  **16 we buy into life cycle cost.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, let's get**  **18 Michael and then Lowell.**  **19 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I guess I**  **20 thought we were dealing with first cost**  **21 affordability by doing the 10-year analysis**  **22 and then we were looking at the 30-year for** 

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### 1 the overall mission. **2 So, I kind of see this as a little 3 bit of mission creep but I understand the**  **4 exercise and I think it is a useful one to 5 look at the marginal individual cost**  **6 effectiveness of measures. However, I 7 fundamentally disagree with this approach for**  **8 setting codes. 9 I, basically, have been**  **10 indoctrinated from building America into a 11 systems engineering approach to designing**  **12 energy efficient homes, where you get savings 13 from the first measure and that savings, the**  **14 energy savings gets applied to other measures 15 which aren't necessarily as cost-effective,**  **16 but as a whole, the whole package still meets 17 the lowest life cycle cost compared to the**  **18 package you were looking at as the baseline. 19 So, I got a fundamental problem**  **20 based on assistance engineering approach to 21 analysis. And I kind of think that we have**  **22 this affordability of the 10-year and this is**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 just a different angle. And I think the five**  **2 percent is real arbitrary and maybe seen as**  **3 capricious when people from the IECC look at**  **4 this and say well what is the five percent.**  **5 Where do get that? Why are you doing**  **6 incremental? Who cares what the increment is**  **7 if the overall package is in the best interest**  **8 of the consumer?**  **9 The consumer doesn't see the savings**  **10 of the incremental measures. They see the**  **11 savings of the whole house.**  **12 So, I am feeling like this is a**  **13 little mission creep from what we -- and we**  **14 discussed this for a few hours a couple of**  **15 meetings ago. I like the fact that you**  **16 presented it. We can see which are marginal**  **17 areas but I don't believe that we should be**  **18 reducing these because of a five percent**  **19 assumption.**  **20 I think the other point is is that**  **21 if you do a five percent assumption, you end**  **22 up with losers, real big losers, people that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 buy these home in cash or conventional**  **2 mortgages. And those people are going to lose**  **3 measures that to them are very cost-effective.**  **4 So this whole thing, the least**  **5 common denominator of affordability as first**  **6 cost and then cherry picking it down to**  **7 individual measures isn't my approach. That**  **8 is not something that I can buy into.**  **9 Thank you.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. And the**  **11 way I look at that is it was just a metric to**  **12 look at, at least at this point.**  **13 But let me get Lowell, Joe, and then**  **14 David.**  **15 MR. UNGAR: Yes, I could nitpick**  **16 both assumptions and the math but I am also**  **17 not sure that the conclusions would change.**  **18 But I did have two questions. One is the**  **19 incremental savings, is that based on a PNNL**  **20 run that just changed the ceiling insulation**  **21 level and whatever the other assumption**  **22 separately changed the other assumptions you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 were looking at?**  **2 MR. LEVY: Yes. Yes, that was a**  **3 PNNL run of just that case, changing from 30**  **4 to 38.**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: Let me interject --**  **6 this is Jose Hagerman from DOE -- just real**  **7 quick. That assumption was modeled by PNNL**  **8 and we have put everything that PNNL can model**  **9 into the latest version of Matthew's life**  **10 cycle tool that he can present right after you**  **11 are done with this so you can see how things**  **12 rack and stack.**  **13 And it is true, I think in my**  **14 opinion it is true what Emanuel said about**  **15 going from a 38 to a 34 or a 30 ceiling**  **16 insulation. It looks like it is more cost**  **17 effective to go with a lesser ceiling**  **18 insulation because the annual energy numbers**  **19 don't really move that much coming from a 34**  **20 to a 38 or a 30 to 38, which we can see here.**  **21 That statement, you can arrive at**  **22 that conclusion not by -- I mean you can** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 arrive at that conclusion the same way that**  **2 Emanuel did in this packet, but you could also**  **3 arrive at that conclusion by just looking at**  **4 the life cycle analysis and seeing things**  **5 change.**  **6 MR. UNGAR: The life cycle analysis**  **7 --**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.**  **9 MR. UNGAR: -- and that separate**  **10 line.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right.**  **12 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: Which we will see.**  **14 It was shook out to you late yesterday just**  **15 because it has taken a lot of time to get**  **16 together everything but we can show that right**  **17 after this discussion.**  **18 MR. UNGAR: My other question was, I**  **19 mean I understand IECC does not necessarily do**  **20 cost-effectiveness analysis. So, whether you**  **21 think this result has something to do**  **22 specifically with manufactured homes, that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 they are different from stick-built homes or**  **2 is it just that your suspicion as for these**  **3 climate zones R38 insulation just isn't cost**  **4 effective?**  **5 MR. LEVY: I'm not sure what the**  **6 question is, Lowell.**  **7 MR. UNGAR: My question is is this**  **8 analysis where you are showing there is not**  **9 much savings for a somewhat expensive measure,**  **10 does this have to do with something regarding**  **11 manufactured homes? Is it different from**  **12 stick-built homes? Or if you do this analysis**  **13 on stick-built homes, would you get the same**  **14 result?**  **15 MR. LEVY: Well, you might get**  **16 different results with stick-built homes. I'm**  **17 not sure about that. This is a result**  **18 specific to manufactured homes because we used**  **19 an R38 and how it would be constructed to the**  **20 manufactured housing setting, what the**  **21 exceptions would be for an R38 ceiling and**  **22 what the cost would be for that matter for a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 site-built home is likely to be different and**  **2 I'm not sure how different.**  **3 MR. UNGAR: So, you are not sure for**  **4 the cost or the savings whether this is**  **5 something particular to manufactured homes.**  **6 MR. LEVY: Right. This is --**  **7 MR. UNGAR: I understand the**  **8 analysis was only for manufactured homes.**  **9 What I don't understand is whether there is**  **10 some unique characteristic of manufactured**  **11 homes that is causing this result.**  **12 MR. LEVY: Well, you know, I do want**  **13 to reinforce what you said to begin with which**  **14 is there is no proof that the IECC standard is**  **15 cost-effective either. I think they are**  **16 saying that the IECC standard is based upon**  **17 cost-effectiveness might be going a little too**  **18 far, too.**  **19 MR. UNGAR: I did not say it.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I just make a**  **21 suggestion here? I don't know if this is**  **22 going to answer your question, Lowell, but let** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 me just go back to the latest life cycle**  **2 analysis when you went from the 38 to the**  **3 lower levels, that change did turn, which were**  **4 three climate zones that were red turn those**  **5 three into two blacks and then we are always**  **6 double digit negative and I think San**  **7 Francisco, which has higher energy prices and**  **8 a more moderate climate.**  **9 So, I mean that is one way of**  **10 looking at it. Which I encourage if we can**  **11 get to some resolution on that, maybe it would**  **12 be helpful for you to balance everything that**  **13 Emanuel is going through right here, which is**  **14 all really good. In my opinion, it is going**  **15 to kind of arrive us all at the same place.**  **16 And then the life cycle tool that we have been**  **17 looking at consistently, if we kind of rectify**  **18 those two, I think we can get some closures on**  **19 this.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Joe did you have**  **21 a question?**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, Manny can go** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 first.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, go ahead, Manny.**  **3 MR. SANTANA: Yes, I think that we**  **4 might be getting a little too bogged down on**  **5 the five percent. You know Emanuel stated**  **6 that it was arbitrary to start with. And what**  **7 have we, that five percent turns into ten**  **8 percent or altogether and just hit a dollar**  **9 amount increase. I think what is important to**  **10 consider here is the methodology and what**  **11 results we are going to get. On the index, we**  **12 have got a couple of items that we need to**  **13 address. Going through this procedure is**  **14 going to get us U values. It is going to get**  **15 us climate zones potentially. And it is going**  **16 to get us a prescriptive package.**  **17 We can go through, you know, I think**  **18 the message and the approach is sound. We can**  **19 all see where the numbers are coming from.**  **20 You know whether the five percent is too much,**  **21 I guess to assume, we go through this kind of**  **22 with group zones, come up with a package, run** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that through the analysis and see how that**  **2 turns out. But I think the approach is**  **3 fantastic.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, let me get Joe**  **5 and then David.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: I just have two**  **7 questions. First of all, I see that what you**  **8 do is you do a single section, U sub o and**  **9 then a double section U sub o and then you**  **10 get, I guess a composite U sub o, which is in**  **11 the box, the black box that is at the bottom.**  **12 Right? I am on page four.**  **13 Is there any reason that the**  **14 standard couldn't have different U sub o's for**  **15 singles and doubles?**  **16 MR. LEVY: I think that's probably a**  **17 question more for the manufacturers.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean I wouldn't**  **19 think you would -- how does the code treat**  **20 that right now? Is there just one? Because**  **21 there is a big difference.**  **22 MR. MENDLEN: One value.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: There is only value?**  **2 Okay, that is interesting because they are**  **3 geometrically different.**  **4 And then the second question is so**  **5 in the column 3, HUD Zone 3, you have lumped**  **6 in Zone 4 and 5. And then column 2, HUD Zone**  **7 2, you have lumped in 3 and 4. So, IECC Zone**  **8 4 gets kind of double-counted there. Right?**  **9 It impacts HUD Climate Zone 3 just**  **10 as it impacts HUD Climate Zone 2. Right?**  **11 MR. LEVY: That's right.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: There is a big**  **13 difference between a 0.067 and a 0.059 and a**  **14 0.066 and 0.056. Right?**  **15 MR. LEVY: Yes. If you go back to**  **16 the map, you will see the problem is obvious.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, those damn state**  **18 lines.**  **19 MR. WEISS: It's obvious but thanks**  **20 for pointing it out.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: David?**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Lubliner.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second,**  **3 Michael, let's let David go again and then**  **4 you.**  **5 MR. LUBLINER: Very good.**  **6 MR. TOMPOS: Well, I just wanted to**  **7 -- you know I can agree that cost**  **8 effectiveness can be looked at by a life cycle**  **9 analysis, full life cycle whether it is 30**  **10 years or ten years. I think that defines**  **11 cost-effectiveness of certain measures. If we**  **12 came to an agreement that that ten years is**  **13 affordability, I would like to change my vote.**  **14 You know I think affordability is**  **15 going to come down to that first cost. I**  **16 don't think, unless something changed that I**  **17 don't know about, banks don't loan money based**  **18 on what your cash flow is or how much money**  **19 you are going to save on your energy**  **20 efficiency. It comes down to debt to income**  **21 ratio. I mean, is there anybody here that**  **22 disagrees with that?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: It is cash flow.**  **2 That is the definition of cash flow. Debt to**  **3 income is cash flow.**  **4 MR. TOMPOS: But the banks will only**  **5 give you so much money. So, whatever my**  **6 income is, I can only spend so much on a**  **7 house.**  **8 So, I think the five percent is**  **9 completely relevant. Even if you tell me we**  **10 are going say I have got a five-year payback**  **11 on something that is going to save me all**  **12 kinds of money but it is going to raise the**  **13 price of a $30,000 house by $10,000, I don't**  **14 think that is affordable anymore to somebody**  **15 that could only afford a $30,000 house.**  **16 So, I just want to make sure that**  **17 there is a big difference between cost or**  **18 energy effectiveness or cost-effectiveness and**  **19 affordability.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Michael and**  **21 then Mark and then Robin. Michael.**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: Okay, this question** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 is for Emanuel. What is in the roof cost**  **2 between 38 and 30? It gets back to my**  **3 original question earlier.**  **4 Because I am looking at it when you**  **5 blow insulation into a roof, there is material**  **6 costs and there is labor costs. The more you**  **7 have to blow the more time in the factory it**  **8 takes. So, there are those costs but there**  **9 other costs that I have been hearing thrown**  **10 out but I am trying to confirm which they**  **11 apply to, which of these cases.**  **12 So, for R22, I am assuming there is**  **13 no baffle of the insulation. So, you don't**  **14 have a cost associated with the baffling but**  **15 when you get up to R30, is that where you put**  **16 in the baffling or is it a 38 and is that why**  **17 your costs seem to be higher than just**  **18 materials cost?**  **19 And then the second question is are**  **20 any of the changes from 30 to 38 associated**  **21 with an assumption of a different type of**  **22 truss or a structural change?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 My understanding from kind of what I**  **2 proposed in the KISS Luby thing was that they**  **3 were already going to be baffling at R30 and**  **4 there was no structural change. So, it was**  **5 just the R8 that is being added. It is loose**  **6 fill insulation and it just blows my mind that**  **7 once you have got the filling and this is the**  **8 last time you are ever going to be able to put**  **9 insulation in and you are not blowing it in to**  **10 the full 38, when a person in a climate zone**  **11 comes in to weatherize that home, they are**  **12 going to blow it to 38. So, why don't we just**  **13 do it right the first time if the overall**  **14 package, and this is still a big if, I want to**  **15 see if the overall package is still a lower**  **16 life cycle cost than the base case.**  **17 But could you kind of get into the**  **18 details on the baffling or the frame change?**  **19 What is driving these costs? They seem**  **20 somewhat higher than what I see for certain**  **21 applications, just based on material, but I am**  **22 not a manufacturer. I don't know what is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 going into them. And maybe you can document**  **2 that or show me where that is documented so**  **3 you can take this offline.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: I thought these were**  **5 the cost numbers that were already provided**  **6 and reviewed. Matthew, is that accurate?**  **7 Matthew is shaking his head yes.**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: I never got my**  **9 question answered on the baffle and the**  **10 framing. Are those involved in these costs**  **11 changes?**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Emanuel, do you have**  **13 --**  **14 MR. LEVY: Can I take a shot at**  **15 that?**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Please.**  **17 MR. LEVY: You are absolutely right,**  **18 Javier. We discussed these last week in some**  **19 detail. And as I mentioned, the 22, the 30,**  **20 and the 38 are different constructions. They**  **21 all have different DLI trusses. They have**  **22 different trusses. We costed out the trusses** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and there is about 80 trusses, I think in the**  **2 multi-section. We costed out the cost of the**  **3 incremental cost of the trusses, of the**  **4 insulation, and the other materials like**  **5 baffles, which baffles are actually a very**  **6 small piece of the cost, what the cost**  **7 differences were there.**  **8 Most of the cost difference, much of**  **9 the cost difference, I wouldn't say most,**  **10 relates to the change in the trusses. And**  **11 that is because what we did is we took an R22**  **12 case and we said what can the industry build**  **13 today with an R22, and what can they build**  **14 today with an R30, and what can they build**  **15 today with an R38. And we went to the cost**  **16 differences between those cases, not what it**  **17 would be nice to build if they were building**  **18 an R22 but what they are building today. And**  **19 the information that we used came from the**  **20 survey.**  **21 So, we predicated all our decisions**  **22 about what went into that roof, in each of the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 construction measures, predicated on what**  **2 information we got back from the industry and**  **3 we costed that out and that is what the costs**  **4 are based upon. And the details were provided**  **5 at the last meeting.**  **6 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you. Yes, I**  **7 guess I misunderstood or I definitely did. My**  **8 understanding is when a manufacturer**  **9 advertises R38 right now for ENERGY STAR, they**  **10 don't have to put in a different truss. Is**  **11 that the case? So, why are we putting a**  **12 different truss in here for 38?**  **13 MR. LEVY: We are not putting in a**  **14 different truss. Of course in the**  **15 marketplace, there are a lot of people today**  **16 building well above the HUD Code for various**  **17 reasons, whether it is ENERGY STAR or anything**  **18 else. But we did it just to reiterate what**  **19 our thinking was is that we took what**  **20 manufacturers are building today minimally to**  **21 each of the levels. And then we looked at the**  **22 cost differences between those. We didn't** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 look at some -- we couldn't pick some**  **2 arbitrary heel height that might be used. We**  **3 picked one that was likely to be used if you**  **4 are going to try to minimize cost.**  **5 MR. LUBLINER: So, let me just**  **6 clarify this and I will shut up because I am**  **7 not there. So, if we have a 5.5-inch heel**  **8 height and we are advertising the home as R22**  **9 in the ceiling, somebody comes in and they**  **10 want an R38 in the ceiling, are you having to**  **11 change that heel height or anything, --**  **12 MR. LEVY: Yes.**  **13 MR. LUBLINER: -- or is it just**  **14 blowing more insulation in?**  **15 MR. LEVY: I am having to change the**  **16 heel height to 7.5 inches if they are getting**  **17 up to R38.**  **18 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, if they are not**  **19 square in the fundamental differences between**  **20 that and what we had proposed, which is to**  **21 allow that taper to take effect and leave it**  **22 as is.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Yes, I don't -- when I see a**  **2 manufacturer and they offer that option, they**  **3 are not changing the heel height. They are**  **4 leaving it at 5.5 and advertising it at 38.**  **5 I guess you are using a higher density.**  **6 MR. LEVY: Michael, you may be**  **7 talking about a manufacturer or five**  **8 manufacturers in the northwest but we couldn't**  **9 start picking arbitrary values. We had to**  **10 pick values that were predicated on real**  **11 minimum construction for each of the levels,**  **12 with some rationale behind it.**  **13 MR. LUBLINER: I agree.**  **14 MR. LEVY: I'm not saying that --**  **15 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I agree,**  **16 Emanuel. I am not going there. I just wanted**  **17 to be clear that my understanding is that the**  **18 majority of roof trusses in this industry**  **19 right now have a 5.5 heel. And my**  **20 understanding was that to go from an R22 with**  **21 that 5.5 heel who advertised R38 does not**  **22 require a higher heel truss. It requires** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 higher density of insulation.**  **2 So, that is kind of where I am**  **3 differing from your definition, which then**  **4 brings in much higher costs with your**  **5 definition, which then justifies, supposedly,**  **6 this individual measure as not cost-effective**  **7 and as a grounds for throwing it out.**  **8 So, I am having some issues with**  **9 this but thank you.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, so we are**  **11 going to move on. Mark, you are next and then**  **12 Robin.**  **13 MR. WEISS: Well, I just wanted to**  **14 follow on to what Dave was saying and that is,**  **15 if you look at, with respect to the five**  **16 percent, if you look at this cost increase in**  **17 terms of percentage of the income of the**  **18 purchaser, while I have been waiting here, I**  **19 have been furiously looking for my AHS cost**  **20 data for owners, which I couldn't find, but I**  **21 believe the median value was something like**  **22 $26,000. It is $22,000 for renters. And you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 look at these cost increases in terms of**  **2 percentage of the income of these folks. You**  **3 know $4,000, you are talking 15 or 16 percent;**  **4 $2,000, even you are looking at 8 percent.**  **5 So, I mean these are substantial chunks of**  **6 money for folks looking to purchase and**  **7 finance these homes even beyond five percent.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Robin.**  **9 MR. ROY: Robin Roy. To David and**  **10 to Mark's point, we are really sensitive to**  **11 this first buyer's perspective and this**  **12 affordability question. No question about it.**  **13 What has driven me in moving towards**  **14 a first buyer's perspective and it could be**  **15 along Lowell's line with a simple payback with**  **16 the first buyer, is that the Congress didn't**  **17 actually ask for us to look at -- ask the**  **18 Secretary of Energy to weigh in on**  **19 affordability. Now, that may be implied in**  **20 some way but it was specific for the Secretary**  **21 to choose a level starting with IECC 2015 and**  **22 moving up or down from there, based on cost-** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 effectiveness. They didn't define this life**  **2 cycle cost, which one could reasonably**  **3 interpret as the impact on all of the owners**  **4 of a home over its life and also on purchase**  **5 price.**  **6 It is hard to imagine that they were**  **7 really asking to minimize purchase price**  **8 because then you might actually be removing**  **9 insulation from it. Right? You might be**  **10 making something which is simply siding and no**  **11 insulation. That would reduce purchase price.**  **12 That cannot remotely do what Congress was**  **13 intending. So, we could put even more people**  **14 into even more houses by removing insulation.**  **15 I cannot imagine that that is the perspective**  **16 that we want.**  **17 I am very interested in that first**  **18 buyer's perspective. I understand it. I just**  **19 think it would be very hard to defend a five**  **20 percent. I am trying to think of what would**  **21 be the language in the Secretary's**  **22 determination that would stand up. Otherwise,** 

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### 1 you would have to be removing insulation, **2 putting all electric resistance in. That is 3 the cheapest way to go on everything. You**  **4 would just, you would have single pane 5 aluminum windows everywhere. It just can't**  **6 be. I can't think of any way you can 7 construct that as what Congress' intent was.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: David. 9 MR. TOMPOS: We're not reducing the**  **10 cost. I mean are improving energy efficiency 11 here by a huge jump. We are just trying to**  **12 keep it so that people can afford to get in 13 the home. If they can't get into the home at**  **14 all, they save nothing. So, right there you 15 are stopping any type of potential energy**  **16 saving, period. Your life cycle cost is, I 17 mean your benefit is zero.**  **18 So, we want to average it out and 19 look at the people that can't afford these**  **20 homes now. I do think Congress would look at 21 it that way. You know if they are going to**  **22 stay in the rentals, I mean I have seen some**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 rentals. They are not energy efficiency. The**  **2 homes are out there, the 30-year-old**  **3 buildings. That is where they are going to**  **4 live if they can't get into new housing that**  **5 is going to be more energy efficient. And we**  **6 are not saying that we can't add any cost to**  **7 this. It just means it would be something**  **8 that is reasonable so that that person with a**  **9 $20,000 to $30,000 income can still go to the**  **10 bank and allow them to borrow some money so**  **11 they can get into the home. That is my**  **12 biggest concern.**  **13 And I don't know exactly what**  **14 Congress' intent was here but I can't believe**  **15 it isn't to help people get into homes. I**  **16 think that is still the American dream.**  **17 Right?**  **18 MR. ROY: It is part of it. It**  **19 could be 16 to 20 instead of 20 to 24, if you**  **20 pulled out the insulation on a first price**  **21 basis.**  **22 MR. TOMPOS: I just find it very** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 hard to understand how you could possibly --**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Lois and**  **3 then Mark.**  **4 MS. STARKEY: Yes, I think there is**  **5 enough leeway in the Act and in what the**  **6 appropriators have said for the last three**  **7 years, that we do need to balance those first**  **8 costs.**  **9 Yes, I think that the Department of**  **10 Energy's goal is to save over 30 years to look**  **11 at those energy savings. But I think there is**  **12 a recognition by Congress that there are**  **13 different congressional goals, different**  **14 federal goals about housing and affordability.**  **15 So, I think there is enough leeway**  **16 to balance. And I totally agree we are not**  **17 talking about -- I don't think there is any,**  **18 at least from MHR's perspective, we are not**  **19 talking about minimizing those first costs as**  **20 the number one be-all. Clearly, we don't want**  **21 to keep people out of housing and then avoid**  **22 the -- do away with the goal of putting people** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 in energy efficient housing.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, let me get Mark**  **3 and then Lowell.**  **4 MR. WEISS: Well, no one was**  **5 suggesting that we want to retreat in terms of**  **6 providing energy efficiency from what we have**  **7 now. But if you look at ISA, it says, goes**  **8 with the IECC, except in cases in which the**  **9 Secretary finds that the code is not cost**  **10 effective based and keep it on the relevant**  **11 line here, based on the impact on the impact**  **12 of the code no the purchase price of**  **13 manufactured housing and on total life cycle**  **14 constructing and operating costs.**  **15 And what I have said from the start**  **16 is that I am not saying the life cycle**  **17 construction and operating costs are**  **18 irrelevant, obviously, they are in the**  **19 statute. I am just saying from our**  **20 perspective as an organization, impact on the**  **21 purchase price of the home to the consumer has**  **22 to be a primary, if not the primary** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 consideration because you get to a point where**  **2 you are pricing significant people out of the**  **3 market. And federal law specifically**  **4 recognizes manufactured housing as affordable**  **5 housing. And a balance between these two**  **6 factors is already written into the law, in**  **7 the regulatory law, federal law that HUD**  **8 follows.**  **9 So, there is some balancing there.**  **10 But from our perspective, first cost impact,**  **11 as we have been calling it, needs to be**  **12 primary.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: After Michael, I think**  **14 we want to hear also all of Emanuel's**  **15 presentation. There is more, isn't there?**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Is there more Emanuel?**  **17 MR. LEVY: Just a couple more**  **18 slides, yes.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, so I think that**  **21 would be good.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Actually Lowell was** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 first. Lowell, Michael, and then we will**  **2 finish up the presentation.**  **3 MR. UNGAR: I am happy to get into**  **4 detailed pricing and legislative language,**  **5 that is something I do but I will forego for**  **6 now because it is not clear to me whether it**  **7 would be significant or not.**  **8 If we are going to argue over like**  **9 the five percent cost cap, I would just**  **10 suggest that we, one, apply it as a cost cap.**  **11 At the moment the analysis is averaging**  **12 numbers that are within that cap. So, if the**  **13 concern is a five percent cost cap, let's look**  **14 at a five percent cost cap and see what those**  **15 numbers are.**  **16 And secondly, we haven't really**  **17 talked about climate zones and such. But if**  **18 we are going to go with Uo values with the HUD**  **19 climate zones, then let's look at the mapping**  **20 of 2015 IECC onto what the Uo values will look**  **21 like for the HUD climate zones. And then**  **22 let's look at what the Uo values would be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 under a five percent cost cap for the HUD**  **2 climate zones.**  **3 I think they are not -- I mean there**  **4 may be one or two cases where they are**  **5 slightly different and we would have to argue**  **6 about it but I think in a lot of cases in fact**  **7 there is not going to be a difference.**  **8 So, if that is the criterion, I**  **9 would suggest we go to where the standard and**  **10 that we will be pretty close.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Because at some**  **12 point, instead of arguing what it is that we**  **13 are supposed to be doing, I thought that the**  **14 numbers -- we were pretty close in some of**  **15 these numbers, the majority of them, actually.**  **16 So, instead of getting bogged down**  **17 on some of the mission, let's see if we can**  **18 look at the actual numbers and reach some**  **19 agreements.**  **20 Michael and then Emanuel.**  **21 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, thank you. So,**  **22 I guess the question I have is if we are going** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to be dealing with first cost affordability**  **2 beyond this ten-year analysis, which I think**  **3 we are doing an adequate job just doing the**  **4 ten-year first home buyer analysis, but if we**  **5 are going to go ahead and do this, I guess my**  **6 question is so what is the percentage or what**  **7 is the number of homes -- clearly, there is**  **8 going to be an increase in the cost of a first**  **9 cost in these homes. And say if there are**  **10 60,000 homes a year being built out there and**  **11 the cost is going to go up, what is the**  **12 acceptable number of home buyers at the low**  **13 end with the marginal credit scores who are**  **14 buying chattel mortgage financing? How many**  **15 of these are we going to lose out of 60,000 a**  **16 year?**  **17 And you know I think that that is**  **18 the kind of information that needs to be**  **19 discussed, if you want to go in that**  **20 direction. Personally, I think the ten-year**  **21 analysis does this but so -- this is a**  **22 question for Mark Weiss. Can we lose no** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 customers on the entry level, then, to justify**  **2 this or is it a thousand customers out of**  **3 60,000? Is it 2,000? Where is the data?**  **4 That is what I think we need if we are going**  **5 to go down that trek and I don't think we need**  **6 to go down that trek. I think we do an**  **7 adequate job with the ten-year analysis.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I just add to**  **9 that real quick? One thing that Lois gave us**  **10 early on was the average sales price of**  **11 manufactured housing and the number of**  **12 shipments over like the last five years.**  **13 There is like a MHI fact sheet.**  **14 And one thing that is pretty**  **15 interesting in there and that is why I think**  **16 this is sort of confusing is, when the average**  **17 price goes up, the industry looks to ship**  **18 more. I don't know, just as a heads up, your**  **19 data shows the average price goes up, the**  **20 shipments increase. Right?**  **21 So, this argument that if we raise**  **22 the price a little bit, you know, and there is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 going to be units taken out of market is**  **2 actually not validated by the five-year**  **3 historical data that you provided.**  **4 So, just something to keep in mind.**  **5 It is like one of the correlation things that**  **6 if you just look at the data, I'm not sure you**  **7 can really derive what I said but you can if**  **8 you want to because I just did.**  **9 (Laughter.)**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: But just something to**  **11 keep in the back of your mind.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, so I want to let**  **13 Emanuel finish his presentation.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, let him finish.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: So, Emanuel, you are**  **16 up.**  **17 MR. LEVY: Okay. We can go to the**  **18 next slide. It is less controversial. Slide,**  **19 I guess, eight. Yes.**  **20 So, this is just a quick indication**  **21 of if we arrive at Uo values like we saw in**  **22 the last table, what percentage of improvement** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that is over the current HUD, this is just for**  **2 your reference, see that we are talking about**  **3 just the thermal portions. We are not talking**  **4 about the other pieces of the standard that we**  **5 have been talking about. It is anywhere from**  **6 22 to 28 percent, depending on the zone.**  **7 There is nothing magical about this but it is**  **8 an appreciable increase but just as a**  **9 reference point.**  **10 And if we go to the next slide just**  **11 to finish up here, this would be one typical,**  **12 again, looking at the far right column, this**  **13 U sub o value, this would be one package, one**  **14 potential prescriptive package equivalent.**  **15 Remember my original point that I wanted to**  **16 try to come up with two paths that were equal**  **17 in terms of their energy impact. So, I used**  **18 the U sub o to come up with a package for each**  **19 of the three HUD zones. And this is one**  **20 package that there is nothing sacrosanct about**  **21 these individual combination of measures but**  **22 just to give you a sense of what might be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 built in each one of the zones as a result of**  **2 those U sub o values.**  **3 And that concludes.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Any questions, Mark?**  **5 MR. WEISS: Nothing.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: I was just going to**  **7 ask you what you were thinking about.**  **8 So, Mark Ezzo, do you have a**  **9 question on the phone?**  **10 MR. EZZO: Yes, thanks, Joe. So,**  **11 Emanuel, slide eight is easily understood. No**  **12 problem with that. We have the suggestion for**  **13 the three new Uo numbers, one for zone and**  **14 they approved it.**  **15 As for running a performance path,**  **16 right, where the manufacturer runs the**  **17 calculation and comes up with those numbers.**  **18 And so they would have the freedom to use any**  **19 combination of insulations and window grades**  **20 that they want under that. Correct?**  **21 MR. LEVY: That's right.**  **22 MR. EZZO: Okay, so that is what I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 think most of us refer to as a performance**  **2 method or performance path.**  **3 And then the next slide, if you will**  **4 go up, Javier, or down. Excuse me, down.**  **5 This one is a prescriptive approach, correct?**  **6 Meaning, that you are not necessarily running**  **7 calculations. You are following those**  **8 prescriptive R values in the cavities and then**  **9 you are following the prescriptive window U**  **10 value and heat gain coefficient numbers.**  **11 Correct?**  **12 MR. LEVY: Yes, I think you are**  **13 point out part of what is missing from this**  **14 table, which would be added later, our set of**  **15 rules about how you use this information. But**  **16 yes.**  **17 MR. EZZO: Yes, so I guess that is**  **18 kind of where I was going with the whole**  **19 thing.**  **20 So, underneath this prescriptive**  **21 table, would there be some footnotes that gave**  **22 things like maximum glazing allowance or is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this prescriptive proposal unlimited glass?**  **2 I guess that is my main question.**  **3 MR. LEVY: Yes, I think generally**  **4 the way this is done, it is done this way in**  **5 the IECC and most other standards, is when you**  **6 have a prescriptive alternative like this, you**  **7 have to set aside a bunch of rules on how this**  **8 is used to make sure that in using the**  **9 prescriptive path, you don't inadvertently**  **10 consume more energy than what is applied in**  **11 the performance path.**  **12 So, you would have to set some**  **13 limits on things like window area. If you are**  **14 going to -- and for potentially other things,**  **15 to make sure that this package is used**  **16 correctly.**  **17 MR. EZZO: Okay, thank you.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Joe.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: So, I am just going**  **20 to ask, Ted, can you scroll up to that? Right**  **21 there.**  **22 So, just to ask this question again** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 because I asked it a second ago. Is there any**  **2 reason why we can't have different U sub o**  **3 values for single and double wide? I mean a**  **4 single section and a double section look**  **5 different. They act different. EnergyPlus,**  **6 when we run the simulations, the numbers are**  **7 different. Is there any reason why we can't**  **8 recognize that they are different and provide**  **9 different values?**  **10 MS. STARKEY: Anybody, any of my**  **11 members there on the phone?**  **12 MR. EZZO: Yes, Joe, this is Mark**  **13 Ezzo. I will try and answer that.**  **14 At first blush, I would kind of**  **15 disagree with that you are saying and only**  **16 because the differences we are seeing are**  **17 based on the geometries of the assumptions we**  **18 made, meaning a 14 by 66 compared to a 28 by**  **19 56. But in reality, I can make a double wide**  **20 or a two-section home smaller in size and**  **21 shape and make those numbers come up a whole**  **22 lot different, even when compared to a single** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 section.**  **2 So, I am not so sure I think that is**  **3 the right path to go down. But I will say**  **4 that it would be simple to do. I mean there**  **5 would be no problem, I don't think, for any**  **6 manufacturer if we had two sets of Uo numbers,**  **7 one for a single section and one for multi**  **8 section.**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, the only reason**  **10 I brought it up was because when I redo some**  **11 math on Emanuel's page seven, as an example,**  **12 I come up with a single section home with a U**  **13 value of 0.086, rather than 0.085. Just can**  **14 you scroll that down?**  **15 So, I think the averaging actually**  **16 sort of penalizes the single section homes and**  **17 makes it a little bit more difficult for them**  **18 to meet.**  **19 MR. EZZO: You know and maybe it**  **20 makes sense to do it that way because the**  **21 single section home is, I think everybody**  **22 would agree is the more affordable, --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: Right, that is what I**  **2 am getting at.**  **3 MR. EZZO: -- a more affordability**  **4 sensitive product. So yes, if we had a little**  **5 bit easier Uo numbers to hit on the singles**  **6 than the doubles, it might make sense.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: It is just something**  **8 to consider.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get David and**  **10 then Mark.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on. It doesn't**  **12 seem like for me, in years of manufacturing,**  **13 Mark, that you would have a hard time**  **14 understanding two different tables. I mean**  **15 you never are halfway through building a**  **16 single section and all of a sudden say we have**  **17 to make it a double. Right? I mean I don't**  **18 think that has ever happened.**  **19 MR. EZZO: That is correct. Like I**  **20 said, if we had two sets of numbers, I don't**  **21 see any struggle for a manufacturer to do it**  **22 that way.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.**  **2 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **3 Lubliner.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on, Mike. You**  **5 have got to get in the queue.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, hold on, Mike.**  **7 We have got David, Mark, and then you.**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: Okay, thanks.**  **9 MR. TOMPOS: Well, I'm just curious.**  **10 Are we getting into the weeds a little bit**  **11 here? Because we talked about whether it is**  **12 0.085 or 0.086, that needle is barely moving,**  **13 isn't it? I mean or am I wrong?**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: To be honest with**  **15 you, the last run -- so, the groups has always**  **16 been asking me to do simulations. And they**  **17 asked me for a set and we give you the**  **18 results. And then the next week they ask for**  **19 me to do another set. And the results change**  **20 the first go-round five percent. And then**  **21 they change two percent. And now they are**  **22 changing a half percent or actually so** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 negligible.**  **2 So, again, I think we are in that**  **3 sweet spot. We just need to all agree that**  **4 hey, we are in the sweet spot and let's start**  **5 picking numbers and just vote.**  **6 MR. TOMPOS: Well that is -- we are**  **7 arguing over affordability and all this other**  **8 stuff, but at the end of the day, these**  **9 numbers are -- I think could make everybody**  **10 happy. Can't they?**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: I think so. I think**  **12 it is much easier, to be honest with you, I**  **13 appreciate all of the work that Emanuel has**  **14 done consistently through the whole thing but**  **15 it is sort of much easier for me to pick**  **16 numbers off of the LCC because we have been so**  **17 used to seeing that.**  **18 We can plug these numbers into it**  **19 and see how they rack and stack. But I can**  **20 tell you on the last numbers that Emanuel**  **21 asked us to simulate, which was the reduction**  **22 in the ceiling, those were the same costs in** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the proposal make all the zones that are**  **2 negative positive. So, it seems like we are**  **3 there in my mind. And you can see the up**  **4 front costs.**  **5 And that is why also something that**  **6 Matthew has done is he has given you a little**  **7 cheat sheet here, this little two-pager. And**  **8 he will present it to everybody on the phone**  **9 right after we get back from a break. But**  **10 this gives you the annual energy costs that a**  **11 homeowner would see from the HUD baseline to**  **12 the newest proposals that you have asked us to**  **13 simulate.**  **14 So, when we say it costs somebody**  **15 $2,000 more to buy the house, well, that is**  **16 true but in one climate zone, 6B, they are**  **17 getting $700 of savings per year just by the**  **18 reduction in their utility bills. So, you**  **19 have got to keep all that in mind.**  **20 That is why it is much easier to**  **21 kind of see all that play out in what I think**  **22 is Matthew's spreadsheet and Emanuel's** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 presentation. But I appreciate, Emanuel,**  **2 everything you have done here.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: I will tell you, we**  **4 see this dynamic quite a bit in bargaining**  **5 where the parties are a lot closer than they**  **6 actually realize and they just continue**  **7 talking, I guess, is the mediator word. They**  **8 keep talking.**  **9 But let's go ahead and get Mark,**  **10 Michael, and then let's take a break and then**  **11 we will get Matthew's computer hooked up and**  **12 we will pull those life cycle numbers.**  **13 MR. WEISS: I would like to**  **14 recognize Rick. I may or may not have a**  **15 further comment when he is finished.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Rick?**  **17 MR. MENDLEN: Okay, thank you, Mark.**  **18 Joe, this is just to point out that there are**  **19 other geometries. There are triple wides,**  **20 quads even, two stories. I mean I think the**  **21 uniform singular value serves us well and just**  **22 as David said, the tweaking the thing by 0.001** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 or something like that is not going to make a**  **2 significant difference in the outcome of what**  **3 factors they are going to use for insulation**  **4 and window values. So, that is my comment.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you.**  **6 MR. WEISS: Thanks, Rick. I will**  **7 follow up a little bit.**  **8 MR. KESSLER: This is Bert.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Just a second, Bert.**  **10 I will get you in the queue.**  **11 MR. WALKER: Part of the basis for**  **12 the affordability of manufactured housing**  **13 under the HUD Code has been standardization of**  **14 uniformity. And while I understand what you**  **15 are saying, Joe, it is kind of like the**  **16 reaction that I have gotten from some of my**  **17 folks to what Robin has been talking about**  **18 with the high level and the low level. And**  **19 that is, while it is logical, unfortunately**  **20 when you start applying that in practice, it**  **21 just winds up making things more complicated**  **22 and, therefore, more costly. So,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 standardization and uniformity are important**  **2 within the context that we are addressing.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: My only comment was**  **4 that I was trying to loosen the requirements**  **5 for singles but if everybody is comfortable**  **6 with them being more rigorous, hey, more**  **7 energy savings.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, Michael and**  **9 Bert.**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I have got some**  **11 data from the northwest regarding the**  **12 distribution of homes. You know out of 27,877**  **13 homes that have been built in the northwest**  **14 since 2004, 1,500 of them were single section,**  **15 almost 20,000 were double section, 6,000 were**  **16 triple section, and as Rick points out, we**  **17 have 200 quads.**  **18 So, we are real interested in the**  **19 multi-section. And if the affordability issue**  **20 really is focused on the singlewides and if we**  **21 could have a separate Uo value that maybe**  **22 addresses some of Emanuel's concerns after** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 running it and seeing whether it is justified**  **2 from the life cycle cost, maybe that is the**  **3 win-win in terms of trying to come up with a**  **4 way of addressing affordability. It would**  **5 tweak it a little bit for the single section**  **6 homes.**  **7 My logic there is that I think by**  **8 the time you set up a multi-section home, it**  **9 costs thousands and thousands of dollars more,**  **10 so that the homeowner who is really in that**  **11 affordability gap is probably tending to buy**  **12 the single section.**  **13 So, if we could just align any**  **14 adjustments, again, I don't think there should**  **15 be adjustments if it got a total package. But**  **16 if we had to negotiate, I think maybe coming**  **17 up with a separate Uo for those single section**  **18 homes would be a compromise. Thank you.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I will have you**  **20 hold onto that. Let's see what those LCC**  **21 numbers look like and see if we need to pull**  **22 that out a little bit later.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Let's get Bert and then we will take**  **2 a break. Bert?**  **3 MR. KESSLER: Yes, I agree with what**  **4 Rick Mendlen said. We do have a variety of**  **5 floor plan arrangements and if you really stop**  **6 and think about it, unless there would be**  **7 significant difference in the Uo, all**  **8 construction is pretty well fixed. The**  **9 insulation is pretty well fixed. The windows**  **10 and doors is fixed. There is nothing much we**  **11 can do. That only leaves the ceiling**  **12 insulation and only then if the manufacturer**  **13 uses blown, where we can control the height.**  **14 So, I don't think it is worth it.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, thank you. You**  **16 wall want ten or fifteen minutes?**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Let us know.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Ten minutes. All**  **19 right, there you go.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: Matthew will set up**  **21 his computer. So, look for our life cycle**  **22 costs.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **2 matter went off the record at 2:09 p.m. and**  **3 resumed at 2:21 p.m.)**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, we're back.**  **5 This is Eileen Hoffman. Everybody online, I**  **6 hope? And we're back from our break. Thank**  **7 you.**  **8 MR. WALKER: Okay. Hi, everybody.**  **9 I'm Matthew Walker from Navigant.**  **10 What we're going to go over is a**  **11 couple of the handouts that we have here in**  **12 the room and I have it up on the screen. And**  **13 then also the LCC model itself.**  **14 I think what I'm going to do is**  **15 start here with this annual heating and**  **16 cooling cost handout because I think it segues**  **17 the best from what Emanuel was discussing.**  **18 So where I want to start is the**  **19 labels of these three columns, or really these**  **20 four columns.**  **21 So we have the HUD code, that's the**  **22 baseline. Then if you go all the way -- I'm** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 going to go all the way to the right where**  **2 that cursor is. That's the 2015 IECC using**  **3 the mapping of components that Emanuel and the**  **4 manufacturers put together. We looked at that**  **5 last week.**  **6 And then as you move back towards**  **7 the HUD code I have revision 1. And just to**  **8 kind of review what was in that particular**  **9 package, revision 1 is the revised ceiling**  **10 insulation. So we changed zones 2 through 3**  **11 from R38 to R34. So only zones 2 through 3**  **12 change between the rightmost column and**  **13 revision 1.**  **14 And then you move to revision 2 and**  **15 revision 2 includes changes to zones 2A and B,**  **16 4A and B, and 6A and B. And those are the**  **17 zones that are in this table. And the changes**  **18 there were from -- in zones 2 and 4 it was**  **19 ceiling insulation down to R30.**  **20 MR. MENDLEN: Say that again.**  **21 MR. WALKER: Zones 2 and 4 moving**  **22 from revision 1 to revision 2, the ceiling** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 insulation changed to R30, R30 in revision 2.**  **2 And then zone 6 we moved from an R20**  **3 plus 5 sheathing to just an R21 high-density**  **4 blanket when you move from revision 1 to**  **5 revision 2.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. I**  **7 have a quick question.**  **8 Your HUD code baseline there that**  **9 you're showing is which version of the HUD**  **10 code baseline? Because there was some -- you**  **11 might want to just remind people of the**  **12 baseline.**  **13 MR. WALKER: Right, that's what --**  **14 so, last week when we met the HUD code**  **15 baseline that we were presenting was based on**  **16 the energy usage of PNNL's original mapping.**  **17 What we have here on the screen now**  **18 is based on the mapping of components that**  **19 Emanuel Levy and the manufacturing group put**  **20 together. That's the new HUD code set of**  **21 components.**  **22 And you can see the specific noted** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 particulars on the PNNL/EUI spreadsheet that**  **2 was also sent around yesterday and has been**  **3 sent around in each iteration of the LCC.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: So, Joe Hagerman,**  **5 DOE, again. I think it's good then that we**  **6 heard from the manufacturers that the original**  **7 baseline wasn't exactly correct.**  **8 So, now the HUD code baseline we're**  **9 using is the one that you said is more**  **10 representative of your industry.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. And along the**  **12 same lines the 2015 IECC manufacturer Levy**  **13 column was on the rightmost side last week did**  **14 not have updated energy use values. This week**  **15 has the energy use values that are associated**  **16 with the particular mapping provided by**  **17 manufacturers and Levy.**  **18 So everything is all up to date.**  **19 Everything matches those labels at the top**  **20 with the HUD code being the particular one**  **21 that was revised by manufacturers.**  **22 Okay, so that's what we're looking** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 at. And, I mean Emanuel has really already**  **2 talked about what's happening here in this**  **3 table, but I just wanted to share with**  **4 everyone again what these numbers mean in case**  **5 you look at them again later.**  **6 These are annual heating and cooling**  **7 costs. So you can calculate the change in**  **8 annual heating and cooling costs by**  **9 subtracting one of these three IECC levels**  **10 from the HUD code.**  **11 So, for example, if we just look at**  **12 2A from the HUD code the total is 892. You go**  **13 to the 2015 IECC, you get $634 in annual**  **14 heating and cooling costs.**  **15 Then when we went down to revision 1**  **16 we changed the ceiling from R38 to R34. So,**  **17 revision 1 uses a little bit more energy**  **18 relative to the 2015 IECC run.**  **19 But like we've been saying it's a**  **20 really small change. It uses $3 more energy**  **21 but it saves a bunch of money by not having to**  **22 use the R38 ceiling cost.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And then similarly, moving down to**  **2 revision 2, that goes down to an R30 ceiling.**  **3 The delta in energy cost is $4, $641 minus**  **4 $637. But again, you save a lot of money by**  **5 not having to install the more insulative**  **6 ceiling.**  **7 So that's the table represents. Are**  **8 there any questions on this before we?**  **9 MR. TOMPOS: Okay, so this is what**  **10 we're arguing about? The difference between**  **11 this and this. Ten dollars a year?**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Actually, it's a**  **13 little bit worse than that. We're actually**  **14 arguing over the sum of this. This -- like**  **15 you were just pointing out the heating.**  **16 MR. TOMPOS: Okay.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: But yes, you're**  **18 right.**  **19 MR. TOMPOS: Why are we still here?**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: We need to pick these**  **21 levels and get out of here.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: I want to go to that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 question, though. I mean, for the most part**  **2 are these numbers acceptable?**  **3 And that's kind of what I was**  **4 talking about before where is there a**  **5 heartburn area? Is there a spot or two that's**  **6 really just the, you know, we really need to**  **7 look at these specific areas. Otherwise, as**  **8 a package --**  **9 MR. ROY: Hang on, these are energy**  **10 costs, right? So the heartburn area is on how**  **11 much you have to spend to get -- put that**  **12 table on.**  **13 MR. TOMPOS: Right, but isn't this**  **14 what Emanuel just went through?**  **15 MR. ROY: No.**  **16 MR. TOMPOS: Oh, this is not what he**  **17 went through.**  **18 MR. ROY: No.**  **19 MR. TOMPOS: Oh, okay.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: Those represent the**  **21 last runs that he asked us to do which you're**  **22 about to see.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Like I said before, the last runs**  **2 that he asked us to run basically went from**  **3 the R34 route to the R30. And then other**  **4 small little change, right? But we kept the**  **5 costs the same.**  **6 And so that's what Matthew should**  **7 alt-tab over to right now and show you the**  **8 lifecycle simulations of that.**  **9 Before that change there were three**  **10 red climate zones. Now there's just one red**  **11 climate zone by like a double digit, right?**  **12 And that's San Francisco. So one of the**  **13 hardest climates to do stuff in.**  **14 MR. WALKER: Right. So that other**  **15 table showed really small differences in**  **16 energy cost, but like Robin was saying there's**  **17 a big difference in the cost to install those**  **18 different measures.**  **19 So what I've done here on this**  **20 sheet, this is not the LCC model itself, but**  **21 just for ease of presentation I copied down**  **22 the LCC savings associated with these three** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 different levels.**  **2 These are actually inverted from the**  **3 table you were just looking at so watch out**  **4 for that.**  **5 This is the original 2015 IECC.**  **6 Moving to the right, revision 1. And then on**  **7 the far right, revision 2.**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: Do we have copies of**  **9 that or no?**  **10 MR. WALKER: You do not have a copy**  **11 of this.**  **12 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So you may have**  **13 to read it for those of us who are technically**  **14 challenged.**  **15 MR. WALKER: All right. So this**  **16 table has the total LCC savings for the three**  **17 versions of the 2015 IECC that we've been**  **18 looking at over the past week.**  **19 So in the first column here 2015**  **20 IECC manufacturer Levy. Single section home**  **21 using a 10-year analysis period with**  **22 residuals. That's got everything.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 We have three zones that have**  **2 negative lifecycle cost which means the**  **3 customer doesn't save money relative to the**  **4 HUD code.**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman again.**  **6 Just to remind everybody, this is 10-year with**  **7 residual recapture.**  **8 MR. ROY: So this is not LCC. This**  **9 is first buyer, like 10-year perspective.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes.**  **11 MR. ROY: And that may be the too**  **12 long 10 years, but in that case it is more of**  **13 a proxy for first buyers.**  **14 MR. WALKER: That's right. Ten**  **15 year.**  **16 MR. ROY: Not LCC.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: Ten year with a**  **18 recapture.**  **19 MR. WALKER: Ten-year ownership cost**  **20 with recapture.**  **21 So then what happened with revision**  **22 2 was that in these gray highlighted cells we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 moved from an R38 ceiling to an R34 ceiling.**  **2 And so you see in each of those that**  **3 the lifecycle cost savings had increased. So**  **4 in the case of Houston it went from -137 to**  **5 -9. It increased but it's still slightly**  **6 negative.**  **7 In the case of San Francisco you**  **8 went from -$48 to a positive $76. Just with**  **9 that one change from R38 ceiling to R34**  **10 ceiling.**  **11 And then you can see that all the**  **12 other zones are unchanged. For example,**  **13 Albuquerque is $671, also $671.**  **14 And then I'll just complete -- I'll**  **15 talk about the last column and then I'll open**  **16 it up for questions.**  **17 Revision 2 follows the changes that**  **18 Emanuel Levy had requested and sort of**  **19 discussed recently. So, his changes affected**  **20 zones 2A and B, 4A and 4B, and 6A and 6B.**  **21 And so you can see zone 2A Houston**  **22 goes from a -$9 with an R34 ceiling to a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 positive $109 when you have an R30 ceiling.**  **2 That was the only thing that changes between**  **3 these two scenarios for that particular zone.**  **4 And the other gray cells showed the**  **5 other zones that change between revision 1 and**  **6 revision 2. So that's single section. I have**  **7 double section below, but if anyone wants to**  **8 talk about single section I'll give you a**  **9 chance.**  **10 MR. EZZO: It's Mark Ezzo. Can I**  **11 ask a question?**  **12 MR. WALKER: Sure.**  **13 MR. EZZO: So the far right column**  **14 that's Levy revision 2, is that representative**  **15 of Emanuel's latest presentation, slides 8 and**  **16 9 so to speak that we just finished up? Those**  **17 numbers represent those recommendations that**  **18 he had? At the very bottom.**  **19 MR. WALKER: I'm looking to 8 and 9.**  **20 MR. EZZO: There you go. Is that**  **21 what we're looking at there in Levy revision**  **22 2?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. WALKER: So, Mark, I guess I can**  **2 answer that. The answer is no. The LCC**  **3 results are specific to the Uo or specific to**  **4 the component package associated with an IECC**  **5 zone. But what we have here on slide 9 is a**  **6 particular aggregation of the IECC zones into**  **7 a HUD zone.**  **8 No is kind of an extreme answer.**  **9 The results are related to each other and the**  **10 results here in my LCC spreadsheet perhaps**  **11 could be averaged.**  **12 MR. ROY: You're 10-year**  **13 cost-effectiveness. It's not the LCC.**  **14 MR. WALKER: Ten-year**  **15 cost-effectiveness.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: Could you pull up --**  **17 Joe Hagerman, DOE -- could you pull up a**  **18 little quickly the component U values for the**  **19 IECC revision 2? Just give people just a**  **20 little second to do this.**  **21 MR. WALKER: I'm just going to**  **22 scroll down to one that is affected and I'm** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 going to highlight what we should look at.**  **2 So when I've highlighted the zone**  **3 2A, the component mapping for revisions 1 and**  **4 2 and here, I'll just get all three.**  **5 MR. SANTANA: Manny here, Cavco. So**  **6 how do the values that you get now if you**  **7 compare with slide 5 in Emanuel's**  **8 presentation? Aren't they one and the same?**  **9 MR. WALKER: I think this is one and**  **10 the same. I don't remember width adjustments**  **11 and four adjustments meant.**  **12 MR. SANTANA: Well, the four**  **13 adjustments was the four that you rated -- you**  **14 went from 38 to 30.**  **15 MR. WALKER: Right.**  **16 MR. SANTANA: Because this is all a**  **17 big progression. And I think slide 8 that**  **18 Mark Ezzo brought up earlier I think was what**  **19 -- how Emanuel took the results of this table**  **20 and grouped them into the three zones. They**  **21 should be roughly equivalent to.**  **22 MR. WALKER: Yes, that was what I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 was trying to say at the end, I think.**  **2 They're roughly equivalent, but it's not an**  **3 LCC specific to a HUD climate zone, or a**  **4 10-year operating cost relative to the**  **5 purchase price analysis.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: So, if you just do a**  **7 quick little comparison, if you pull them up,**  **8 like a single section for a HUD zone 1 would**  **9 be 0.087. And as Emanuel proposed it would be**  **10 0.085. And then for a double section HUD zone**  **11 1 would be 0.084 and he's proposed 0.085.**  **12 And then for a single section HUD**  **13 zone 2 would be a 0.07. He's proposed a**  **14 0.069. And for a double section it would be**  **15 0.068. He's presented a 0.069.**  **16 And then finally the last HUD zone**  **17 kind of gets confusing of course. Matthew's**  **18 analysis says a single section should be 0.059**  **19 and 0.051. And Emanuel's presented 0.062 and**  **20 for a double section would be 0.056 and 0.050.**  **21 And again, Emanuel's presented 0.062.**  **22 MR. LEVY: Hey Joe, this is Emanuel.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes.**  **2 MR. LEVY: I'm not sure what you**  **3 said is exactly correct.**  **4 If you look back at page 5 which**  **5 Manny was just referring to I think those are**  **6 the specific conditions that map with that.**  **7 The combined U value is something**  **8 else, comes from outside of the analysis. But**  **9 I think what Matthew ran is exactly what's in**  **10 Table 5.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. And if you**  **12 just group something like IECC climate zone 1**  **13 and IECC climate zone 2 which is roughly**  **14 equivalent to I think HUD climate zone 1 those**  **15 numbers don't change. You still get a Uo**  **16 value of 0.087, right?**  **17 MR. LEVY: That's right. That's**  **18 right.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: And there seems to be**  **20 some natural divisions that occur. Like IECC**  **21 zone 1 and IECC zone 2 look like they're**  **22 pretty, you know, they group together. And** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 IECC 3 and IECC 4 look to group together. And**  **2 then 5 and 6 group together. And then 7 and**  **3 8 kind of are out there.**  **4 And that kind of works across both**  **5 singles and doubles. I mean, obviously the Uo**  **6 values change which I think everybody should**  **7 consider having different numbers for singles**  **8 and doubles. But I think that's a dead horse**  **9 around here.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. What other**  **11 questions do you have on this?**  **12 So, if we're going to pull up the**  **13 costing information, are those areas that we**  **14 need to tweak in order to try to make this**  **15 thing acceptable?**  **16 MR. LACEY: Are you asking are there**  **17 additional areas?**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry?**  **19 MS. STARKEY: What date?**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: So, we're looking at**  **21 -- because it seemed like how much is this**  **22 going to cost seems to be the part that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 everyone is looking at.**  **2 And everyone seemed to be okay with**  **3 the savings piece. And just the overall cost**  **4 on here. But what does that compute to as far**  **5 as the overall dollars. And if so, if it's**  **6 out of a range that is acceptable where do we**  **7 need to tweak it to make it acceptable. Is**  **8 that where we're at?**  **9 MS. STARKEY: I guess I have a**  **10 question. Where we're at. I mean, we have a**  **11 proposal on the table for a set of U values,**  **12 and a climate zone, and a prescriptive path.**  **13 And it sounds like that we've come**  **14 to some sort of fair consensus that the**  **15 analysis compares to this 10-year look that we**  **16 just did.**  **17 So, then it would make sense to look**  **18 at what the costs might be if we were to**  **19 agree, and I think that was the purpose of**  **20 proposing something.**  **21 And then we could say, okay, well, I**  **22 don't like 062, let's go to, you know, and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 then look at the cost.**  **2 But I think we need to say is this**  **3 approach that Emanuel has taken, regardless of**  **4 how he got there, three zones, these U values,**  **5 this prescriptive path, does that make sense,**  **6 or does it not.**  **7 And what we were trying to come to**  **8 is some proposed standard.**  **9 MR. ROY: Could you make another**  **10 chart? I don't know how hard it is for you to**  **11 do it. This is Robin.**  **12 And it would bridge A-C and A-B.**  **13 Let's move onto -- if we want to move onto**  **14 maybe Rev 2. Because I thought those were**  **15 always interesting opportunities for reducing**  **16 cost that didn't seem very productive. So**  **17 have that combed.**  **18 Change the heading of it to make it**  **19 correct. So it's a total 10-year**  **20 cost-effectiveness. But also have the total**  **21 30-year lifecycle cost-effectiveness column.**  **22 And a third column, the cash out. Purchase** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 price for it.**  **2 And then a fourth column would be**  **3 maybe the U value for each of those things.**  **4 And then SHGC at some point would be good too.**  **5 Do you see what I'm saying?**  **6 MS. STARKEY: Yes. How long would**  **7 it take you to do that?**  **8 MR. ROY: Cash out is a 10-year**  **9 prospective, 30-year prospective and a U**  **10 value. That would be really helpful I**  **11 suspect.**  **12 And we can see if we want to combine**  **13 some of those, modify some up and down. I**  **14 think we could all talk clearly to it.**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: Can you step aside**  **16 maybe and quickly run through that? And maybe**  **17 we can continue the conversation. You can use**  **18 Bob's if you want to sit down.**  **19 MR. WALKER: Or I can just pass the**  **20 control of the screen back to Ted. He can**  **21 stay here.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: That would be good.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. WALKER: Emily, can we?**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: Before he goes though**  **3 is there something else you'd like on this**  **4 chart?**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get Mark and**  **6 then Eric.**  **7 MR. WEISS: And I apologize again,**  **8 not being a technical person. But you asked**  **9 about tweaking these numbers. Do all these**  **10 numbers ultimately go back to the PNNL model**  **11 that we've been talking about since the first**  **12 meeting which Joe has characterized is based**  **13 on laws of the physics?**  **14 MR. WALKER: That's right. The**  **15 energy simulations, yes. Annual energy.**  **16 MR. WEISS: Okay. But no one has**  **17 ever looked at this in terms of an actual home**  **18 under actual conditions operating under these**  **19 standards.**  **20 You know, I don't think you were**  **21 here, Joe, when I mentioned this last week.**  **22 Given the time that's been invested in this** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it's -- I just don't understand why from the**  **2 start DOE just doesn't commission some of**  **3 these homes built to the IECC.**  **4 And admittedly 2015 just came out,**  **5 but to see what the actual numbers and actual**  **6 operation look like.**  **7 I mean, I don't know what needs to**  **8 be tweaked on this model. I mean, I didn't**  **9 put it together. God only knows. But it's**  **10 all based on model.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: We did commission**  **12 homes, they just were energy simulations. And**  **13 that energy simulation software has been**  **14 recognized I think by all the --**  **15 MR. WEISS: I'm not arguing with**  **16 that.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: It seems to be pretty**  **18 well --**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois, you want to**  **20 respond to that?**  **21 MS. STARKEY: Yes. I just -- and**  **22 Emanuel, you may speak to this because you're** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 intimately involved in it, but SBRA in joint**  **2 partnership with DOE is actually -- and**  **3 Tennessee Valley Authority is actually**  **4 building some homes.**  **5 I'm not sure if it's to the 2015**  **6 IECC, but it's super energy efficient. It's**  **7 the gold standard of what DOE is --**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Building America.**  **9 MS. STARKEY: Yes, and what --**  **10 you've got a super energy efficient home. So**  **11 we will have some data on how manufactured**  **12 homes perform.**  **13 But it's only in one zone, only in**  **14 one climate zone. I mean, you know, I just --**  **15 I'm not sure what value just building more**  **16 homes that would be model homes. People**  **17 really wouldn't necessarily be living in them.**  **18 And I think to Joe's point we've**  **19 got, you know, data and models --**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: Energy Plus has been**  **21 validated too, I guess.**  **22 MS. STARKEY: Yes, it's Energy Plus.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 2**  **MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike 3**  **Lubliner. 4**  **MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second, 5**  **Michael. Eric, you've been patient. Let me 6**  **get Eric, then you, Michael. 7**  **MR. LACEY: Before we send Matthew 8**  **away I do want to have a conversation about 9**  **SHGC. Because I think we're going to be 10**  **getting more runs. That's one area that gives 11**  **me heartburn in the current prescriptive path. 12**  **Because I think we can do a little bit more 13**  **cost-effectively on the solar heat gain of the 14**  **windows, and we could be more consistent with 15**  **the 2015 IECC. 16**  **Emanuel's done some great work on 17**  **the U factors of the various components in 18**  **comparing them, but he's left the SHGC the 19**  **same in every climate zone. 20**  **I think if we drive that down a 21**  **little bit lower where it is in the 2015 IECC 22**  **to 025 SHGC I think you'll turn then Miami**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 from red to black, first of all.**  **2 And I think the energy savings and**  **3 some other factors that come into this will be**  **4 beneficial.**  **5 I'm wondering if we should have that**  **6 discussion now or at some later point.**  **7 Because I did have some discussions with**  **8 people in the window industry and have some**  **9 information to share.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: So, Joe Hagerman,**  **11 DOE. Could you really quickly remind us, by**  **12 changing the solar heat gain coefficients on**  **13 the glass what the incremental cost increase**  **14 would be in both the single and the double**  **15 section?**  **16 And then we can just keep the energy**  **17 numbers the same and just put the cost data in**  **18 there and see how it racks and stacks?**  **19 So there we recognize the cost**  **20 increase but not the savings.**  **21 MR. LACEY: Recognizing that the**  **22 savings would probably increase.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.**  **2 MR. LACEY: Okay.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's just see what**  **4 the cost impact.**  **5 Because last time really, to be**  **6 honest with you, when we monkeyed around with**  **7 the numbers, or when we -- I shouldn't say it**  **8 that way. Take that back. That's not a**  **9 technical term.**  **10 When we redid the simulations we**  **11 didn't really see a huge energy impact. We**  **12 saw the hugest impact just on the cost, right?**  **13 MR. LACEY: Yes.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: So I don't think, you**  **15 know.**  **16 MR. LACEY: I'll run through a few**  **17 reasons why I think that was probably the**  **18 case.**  **19 First, as I pointed out last time,**  **20 the costs that we were presented with, I**  **21 thought they were conservative, very**  **22 conservative. They were certainly a lot** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 higher than the windows being sold for the**  **2 stick-built home market.**  **3 And I realize there are some**  **4 differences. And when I reached out to people**  **5 in the fenestration industry you can't just**  **6 take a window off the shelf at Home Depot and**  **7 put it in a manufactured home.**  **8 Now, their opinion was the costs**  **9 would not increase all that much to get -- to**  **10 comply. It certainly wouldn't double in price**  **11 as the numbers showed here.**  **12 And recognize that these numbers**  **13 also show kind of upgrade by upgrade costs**  **14 rather than looking at the window costs as if**  **15 you're producing the same window for the whole**  **16 country, or just two windows for the whole**  **17 country, not special ordering each incremental**  **18 improvement the costs would obviously come**  **19 down. That's what we've seen in the**  **20 stick-built home market.**  **21 So, I had a conversation with Rob**  **22 and I chatted with Emanuel on this.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 One thing I was going to suggest.**  **2 Rather than aim for the very, very best window**  **3 that's spec'd on -- there was a handout that**  **4 was handed out last time that showed kind of**  **5 the incremental steps and cost for going**  **6 single-pane to double-pane, to double-pane**  **7 low-E, rather than driving that all the way to**  **8 what I'd like to see which is a 3.0 U factor**  **9 2.5 SHGC window, why don't we just focus on**  **10 starting where Emanuel is.**  **11 He's got basically two windows for**  **12 the whole country. The HUD climate zone 1 and**  **13 2 has a U factor of 3.5 and an SHGC of 3.3,**  **14 and HUD climate zone 3 has a U factor of 3.2**  **15 and the same SHGC of 3.3.**  **16 What I'm going to suggest is if in**  **17 the HUD climate zone if we can drive the SHGC**  **18 down to a 2.5 the incremental cost difference**  **19 is somewhere around 70 or 80 cents a square**  **20 foot which I don't think is a lot. That's**  **21 obviously not going as far as we could go with**  **22 the efficiency, it's just going kind of one** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 level change.**  **2 But this accomplishes a few things.**  **3 One, it will maintain consistency with the**  **4 2015 IECC in all climate zones. It would**  **5 bring out -- in addition to the energy and**  **6 cost benefits you would reduce electric peaks.**  **7 Depending on the orientation of the**  **8 home which is another thing we should talk**  **9 about you get some real energy savings and**  **10 comfort improvement.**  **11 One thing that the PNNL model is it**  **12 assumes an equal amount of glazing on all**  **13 sides of the unit. And from the designs I've**  **14 looked at, especially single lines, that's not**  **15 the case.**  **16 Most of the glazing is on two sides,**  **17 the long sides. Right?**  **18 And so if you rotate that house from**  **19 a good orientation which would be a**  **20 north-south to a bad orientation which would**  **21 be east-west the impact of the solar gain is**  **22 going to be huge on your air conditioning** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 loads.**  **2 So, I'm going to suggest going with**  **3 the 2015 IECC numbers for SHGC if we could**  **4 figure out the air conditioning sizing that**  **5 would save you on -- you could downsize the**  **6 air conditioning too like we discussed**  **7 earlier.**  **8 I'd like to see how that falls out.**  **9 I think it's going to be cost-effective at**  **10 least in HUD climate zone 1 if not in HUD**  **11 climate zone 2 as well.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: We should point out**  **13 too -- Joe Hagerman with DOE again -- that**  **14 this model does not assume any cost for the**  **15 downsizing of equipment.**  **16 MR. LACEY: Right.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: So we did not model**  **18 that credit into the current cost numbers that**  **19 you see up there.**  **20 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **21 Lubliner.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you. All right,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Michael.**  **2 MR. LUBLINER: I think that there's**  **3 a mistake if you don't take credit for the**  **4 downsized air conditioner that the consumer**  **5 would have.**  **6 And I think if you take the credit**  **7 for the downsized air conditioner and used**  **8 what Eric's proposed you're going to get a**  **9 better solar heat gain coefficient with a good**  **10 lifecycle cost in climate zone 1.**  **11 If we're doing some horse trading**  **12 you're going to get rid of the 38 in the roof**  **13 in climate zone 1, I certainly think you need**  **14 to trade back in the better solar heat gain**  **15 coefficient.**  **16 Having said that I still have real**  **17 issues with assuming that we need to change**  **18 the frame of a truss to get an R38. And**  **19 that's what's driving that cost and pushing us**  **20 into Levy's revision 2 proposal.**  **21 So those are my feelings here on**  **22 that. Thank you.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Oh, one last thing. In regards to**  **2 Mark's comments about validation of computer**  **3 modeling, we have taken random samples of**  **4 thousands of homes that were built under**  **5 energy efficient manufactured homes program**  **6 and have done measurements and billing**  **7 analysis, and have concluded that the models**  **8 that we used, the E-Plus models which are**  **9 fundamentally like EnergyPlus do a really good**  **10 job of predicting energy use.**  **11 Although there is a wide standard**  **12 deviation, that tends to happen. That's out**  **13 of our control and that's occupant behavior.**  **14 One thing that we do see though is**  **15 that a lot of these people, particularly the**  **16 licensing, the affordable people that get the**  **17 entry-level house, they can't afford to keep**  **18 the heat at 70 or 68 degrees.**  **19 They turn the heat off when they**  **20 leave, the electric furnace, the 15 kWh**  **21 furnace. They come back. And we see that**  **22 practice results in durability and moisture** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 problems.**  **2 So I think that it's easy to say,**  **3 you know, we don't know how well this model**  **4 predicts.**  **5 I think we, at least in the**  **6 Northwest are comfortable using these models**  **7 as is DOE. And the only problem is behavior.**  **8 And you would save less energy because people**  **9 are using a setback and turning the heat off**  **10 for long periods of time, that's generally**  **11 driven by their licensing nature, inability to**  **12 pay utility bills.**  **13 So I think we're good on the energy**  **14 savings side. But I do have some issues, as**  **15 I said, on the ceiling costs assumptions. And**  **16 I do support that solar heat gain compromise**  **17 for a better solar heat gain, or at least look**  **18 at the analysis and see how it compares for**  **19 climate zone 1. I think that's going to be**  **20 huge.**  **21 The other thing is the R38 and the**  **22 lid in climate zone 1 did not take into** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 account the impact that an R38 has versus an**  **2 R30 on the duct thermal distribution**  **3 efficiency.**  **4 If there are ducts in the attic**  **5 which there are in those climate zones very**  **6 often, then the energy savings associated with**  **7 going to 38 is going to be much higher because**  **8 there's less duct losses. Because more of**  **9 that duct insulation is covering -- the**  **10 ceiling insulation is covering the ducts.**  **11 So that's -- sorry for these**  **12 nuances, technical, nerdy stuff, but that's**  **13 all I have to say. Thank you.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: Quick question for**  **15 Matthew. It's Eileen Hoffman. Can you in**  **16 your columns also do SHGC? Can that be done?**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: You can model the**  **18 costs but not the energy effects quickly.**  **19 MR. LACEY: You'd rather not have**  **20 one without the other.**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: You can have one,**  **22 just can't have the other.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: That's for PNNL,**  **2 right?**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: So, at least we get**  **5 that in there and see how --**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: That's why I said if**  **7 you just look at just this front cost first**  **8 you can see.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, let me ask you,**  **10 is that something that they could do**  **11 overnight?**  **12 MR. LACEY: I don't know if that's**  **13 going to be that helpful to add just the cost**  **14 without the energy savings.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, I'm asking if**  **16 PNNL could broaden their savings overnight.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: If it adds $300 of**  **18 cost then no.**  **19 MR. LACEY: It's going to be $90 and**  **20 $153.**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: So the worst case**  **22 would be --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LACEY: The double-wide would be**  **2 --**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: One forty. So, okay.**  **4 It's not going to make anything negative other**  **5 than --**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that all right,**  **7 Eric? Just looking at the cost for now, and**  **8 then we can see if we can get the savings from**  **9 PNNL overnight?**  **10 MR. LACEY: Yes, that's fine. And**  **11 I'd recommend looking at the worst case**  **12 scenario on SHGC when they calculate that,**  **13 rather than the average with the glazing area**  **14 distributed on all four sides.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Mark? I'm**  **16 sorry, Emanuel. Let me get Mark and then I'll**  **17 get you.**  **18 MR. WEISS: Just to recognize Rick.**  **19 MR. MENDLEN: Thank you. At one of**  **20 the fall meetings we had discussion about the**  **21 SHGC coefficients. And the fact that going**  **22 down to the level of 0.25 would possibly** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 impact the ability to produce an egress window**  **2 that meets the current requirements of the HUD**  **3 standards.**  **4 And I'd like to remind everybody**  **5 that what I suggested was doing some sort of**  **6 weighting or averaging to make sure that**  **7 egress windows at least would be capable of**  **8 meeting our current requirements without -- as**  **9 they currently are for safety considerations.**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **11 Lubliner.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, hold on. Let**  **13 Eric address that.**  **14 MR. LACEY: I was just going to**  **15 respond that I hear you. The issue, the SHGC**  **16 won't affect egress. The air leakage number**  **17 might. And we had already decided at a**  **18 previous meeting we were going to eliminate**  **19 the air leakage requirement on the windows**  **20 that applies specifically to them. So unless**  **21 somebody wants to correct me I don't think**  **22 SHGC will affect the egress. That is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 important and I don't think this will change**  **2 that.**  **3 MR. ROY: Egress is about the frame.**  **4 SHGC is about the glass.**  **5 MR. LACEY: Is about the glass.**  **6 MR. ROY: The glass unit inside a**  **7 frame.**  **8 MR. LACEY: Yes.**  **9 MR. ROY: It will be strange.**  **10 MR. LACEY: It's not affected by the**  **11 air leakage.**  **12 MR. LUTER: This is Rob Luter. Eric**  **13 is correct. SHGC will have no impact on force**  **14 of operation, but the air leakage that we**  **15 proposed adopting would have.**  **16 At the end of the day though we**  **17 elected to keep the current HUD air leakage in**  **18 place. So that shouldn't affect egress.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Emanuel,**  **20 you had something?**  **21 MR. LEVY: Yes. I just wanted a**  **22 word of caution. I agree with Eric that it** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 would be worthwhile to do a little more**  **2 investigation of the glazing options.**  **3 The cost of going down to 0.25 is**  **4 about $100 per single section and $150 for a**  **5 double section.**  **6 But in doing the modeling, and he**  **7 touched on this earlier, there are a number of**  **8 variables that have to be considered.**  **9 Because you can easily make**  **10 assumptions that are in favor of -- very**  **11 favorable to the reduction in solar heat gain**  **12 coefficient.**  **13 For example, orientation, Eric**  **14 talked about bad versus good orientation for**  **15 solar heat gain coefficient makes a huge**  **16 difference in -- makes the difference between**  **17 cost-effective and not cost-effective.**  **18 But there are other things like**  **19 shading. If there's another house within 10**  **20 feet of the house that gets the glass that's**  **21 being shaded by it, and therefore the solar**  **22 heat gain coefficient is of less value.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And by the same token, if people**  **2 have window shades pulled down the solar heat**  **3 gain coefficient is of less value.**  **4 If they set up their thermostats**  **5 during the day while they're out of the house**  **6 the solar heat gain coefficient has less**  **7 value.**  **8 So, it's not -- it shouldn't be**  **9 simplified and we should look at the full**  **10 range of variables here. Recognize that the**  **11 actual use conditions may, in fact, make the**  **12 option less cost-effective. But it certainly**  **13 is worth looking at.**  **14 MR. DENNIS: Can you hear me?**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead,**  **16 Michael.**  **17 MR. DENNIS: This is Keith Dennis.**  **18 Can you hear me?**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead, Keith.**  **20 MR. DENNIS: I just wanted to make a**  **21 point earlier. I've been on the phone but**  **22 I've been having trouble getting my hand** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 heard.**  **2 I think that the cost-effective and**  **3 affordability conversation is great, and I**  **4 think that the conversation is great.**  **5 One thing that I was thinking about**  **6 is some studies that we've done on kind of**  **7 looking at the cost approaching the**  **8 cost-effectiveness.**  **9 And generally this is just a rule of**  **10 thumb we have, but when you're going up in**  **11 energy savings the first 50 percent of your**  **12 savings is going to cost you about 25 percent.**  **13 The next 25 percent is going to cost you about**  **14 25 percent.**  **15 Wait -- the first 50 percent is**  **16 going to cost you 25 percent. The next 25**  **17 percent is going to cost you about 25 percent.**  **18 The next 25 percent is going to cost you about**  **19 50 percent. So you start getting more**  **20 expensive as you go towards the level that**  **21 you're reaching generally. But that may not**  **22 happen here.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But one of the things I'm concerned**  **2 about is step increases right at the end of**  **3 cost-effectiveness.**  **4 And it sounds like this graded thing**  **5 might be one of those kind of issues where it**  **6 is cost-effective but it's a big step**  **7 increase. So, you're not getting the bang for**  **8 the buck that you do earlier on in that**  **9 analysis.**  **10 Does that make sense?**  **11 So, just generally I think we need a**  **12 construct like 10-year payback. But when you**  **13 think keeping added-on rate at the end that**  **14 costs a lot more and it's kind of marginal,**  **15 that's where I get a little bit nervous.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let me get**  **17 Michael, Lowell and then Eric.**  **18 MR. LUBLINER: Well, first comment,**  **19 back to Rick's comment is my understanding is**  **20 the solar heat gain coefficient has nothing to**  **21 do with egress of windows.**  **22 And I think also for HUD's benefit I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 would take a strong look at what HUD has for**  **2 the way of its current egress and its**  **3 differences with site-built I-codes.**  **4 I think you'll find that some of the**  **5 egress requirements in the HUD code are based**  **6 on very old assumptions, but we don't need to**  **7 get into that now.**  **8 As far as the solar heat gain**  **9 coefficient if we're talking about less than**  **10 a buck a square foot we should certainly do**  **11 the run and see where it's at.**  **12 And again, I'm very concerned about**  **13 assumptions that are made, as Emanuel said.**  **14 My philosophy is to use the worst case**  **15 assumption for orientation. This is generally**  **16 what's done.**  **17 So if we want to, right now we're**  **18 using an average. But I would say we look at**  **19 the lifecycle cost assumption of this better**  **20 solar heat gain coefficient and assume worst**  **21 case and see where it comes out.**  **22 That would be a conservative way to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 do it so those people that are in a park and**  **2 they have some sort of limitations in**  **3 orientation, those aren't getting screwed**  **4 because they didn't get a better solar heat**  **5 gain coefficient.**  **6 That's all I have to say on that.**  **7 Thank you.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So can Matthew**  **9 start working on his stuff while we continue**  **10 this discussion?**  **11 MS. HOFFMAN: Are we all clear what**  **12 we've asked Matthew to do? Are you clear?**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: That's the question.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: This mission, should**  **15 you accept it.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: Would it be that**  **17 difficult to show us with the cost?**  **18 MR. WALKER: I can do what I've been**  **19 asked very quickly.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. And then can**  **21 you show us the same but with the solar heat**  **22 gain already costed in there, but not the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 energy savings? Would that be more difficult?**  **2 MR. WALKER: Can we pick one? Do**  **3 you want to pick?**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. I think we only**  **5 care about 1A, 2A, 2B.**  **6 MR. WALKER: Okay.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: And 3(a).**  **8 MR. LACEY: Well, it would be**  **9 climate zones 1 and 2 which would go through,**  **10 basically through IECC climate zone 4.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: Three and four.**  **12 MR. LACEY: Yes, if I'm reading that**  **13 right.**  **14 MR. WALKER: I can do that too.**  **15 MR. LACEY: I mean, all you're doing**  **16 is adding $90.35 to a single and $153.03 to a**  **17 double according to the numbers here. I'm**  **18 just using the numbers we got from Emanuel.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Just see if you can**  **20 do that. We'll see you in 10 minutes.**  **21 (Laughter)**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: While Matthew's doing**  **2 that, Lowell, you're next.**  **3 MR. UNGAR: It's still not clear to**  **4 me how much influence the lifecycle cost,**  **5 either the 10-year or 30-year, has on folks.**  **6 I do think for SHGC the assumptions**  **7 may be it sounds like are critical. That**  **8 would be my guess too.**  **9 So, simply to say that the run isn't**  **10 very helpful unless we all agree on the**  **11 assumptions. I'm not sure we're all going to**  **12 agree on the assumptions. So I'm not quite**  **13 sure -- unless we spend an hour discussing**  **14 them I'm not sure we can deal with them.**  **15 I did want to throw in a couple of**  **16 other things to the extent we're going to take**  **17 about lifecycle cost calculations.**  **18 One is that I think these runs are**  **19 assuming air leakage rates which were not what**  **20 we -- consistent with what we agreed to in the**  **21 last meeting.**  **22 So if we're in zones 3 and above it** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 looks to me like it has the envelope air**  **2 leakage of three. And I don't think anybody**  **3 thinks that will be the average given what**  **4 we're talking about as a standard for air**  **5 leakage.**  **6 It also has duct leakage of four and**  **7 I'm not sure if that's -- for real homes if**  **8 that's consistent with what we were talking**  **9 about with the heater. And I think those**  **10 might have a significant effect on the results**  **11 for the other measures.**  **12 That is, if you have a lot more air**  **13 leakage then some other measures will have**  **14 more of an impact on energy savings.**  **15 I'll also note that for zone 3 the**  **16 ceiling assumption doesn't look the same and**  **17 what was in Emanuel's chart. So I'm not sure**  **18 they're exactly the same although I assume**  **19 it's pretty close to Rev 2, but not just**  **20 exactly the same.**  **21 And then I'll note if we're talking**  **22 about lifecycle cost the other thing that I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 think is potentially significant is while we**  **2 have taxes on the homes the mortgage interest**  **3 is tax deductible for those who pay taxes and**  **4 itemize deductions, which for those who have**  **5 mortgages is usually a lot.**  **6 And that would have -- lower the**  **7 effective interest rate. And it also I think**  **8 would have a somewhat significant -- again,**  **9 where we're talking about the margin for these**  **10 balancing costs and savings, if it's just a**  **11 little bit red or a little bit black I think**  **12 that might make a difference.**  **13 There's a number of other ones, so.**  **14 Oh, the one other one I'll mention**  **15 because that's for Miami if we care about zone**  **16 1 which it's not clear to me -- for HUD zones**  **17 I don't think we care about Miami.**  **18 But if we care about Miami the mix**  **19 of equipment for HVAC equipment is a national**  **20 mix. I think the regional mix is quite**  **21 different and would give quite different**  **22 results.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Eric, did you**  **2 have something?**  **3 MR. LACEY: No. I agree with what**  **4 would be said about the reasons behind worst**  **5 case.**  **6 I guess maybe I will follow up a**  **7 little bit. I think it was Keith Dennis that**  **8 was commenting on whether the costs were worth**  **9 it.**  **10 And I'd point out that if this can**  **11 result -- if lower SHGC results and lower air**  **12 conditioning loads, that'll have a significant**  **13 impact on heat and electrical demand and**  **14 environmental impact associated with that,**  **15 especially out in rural parts of the country.**  **16 And so I think there's a huge value that's not**  **17 accounted for in the PNNL runs.**  **18 As long as we're considering whether**  **19 there might be a tree shading it nearby we**  **20 also need to consider the other potential**  **21 impacts that maybe aren't being tallied up in**  **22 the PNNL spreadsheet.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. DENNIS: Can I add one comment?**  **2 My comment was actually from earlier and I**  **3 just kind of came in on this.**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: This is Keith?**  **5 MR. DENNIS: When we were talking**  **6 about affordability -- yes, this is Keith.**  **7 Sorry.**  **8 When we were talking about**  **9 cost-effectiveness and affordability I wanted**  **10 to throw out there what I would view as kind**  **11 of my philosophy looking at it.**  **12 I mean, I think that we need to look**  **13 at -- and that's started at the time I was**  **14 trying to -- I'd been on the phone.**  **15 We're trying to get a look at it --**  **16 or I know we have to look at it in the**  **17 construct. But I like this 10-year, 30-year,**  **18 you know, as a rule of thumb.**  **19 But again, one key is to kind of**  **20 approach that boundary to add a little step**  **21 apart. That's where I think we need to have**  **22 some leeway in order to make people like me** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 comfortable. I don't know if there are other**  **2 people. I know there were -- rules of thumbs**  **3 are good but if it's not practical and at the**  **4 very end you're adding this cost to get that**  **5 last couple percentage, or that last bit**  **6 that's cost-effective, I think that that just**  **7 doesn't make sense for the buyer.**  **8 I don't know if the solar heat gain**  **9 one is one of them. I'm saying if we can**  **10 different things like that at inception I'm**  **11 more comfortable with kind of sticking to the**  **12 guidelines of lifecycle cost. I know that**  **13 we've had a discussion about affordability.**  **14 I think that's kind of where I fall.**  **15 So that just happened to fall in**  **16 this conversation because I had my hand raised**  **17 earlier, but it didn't come up. So, and we do**  **18 like, obviously, people having reductions are**  **19 huge for us. So if that's what comes out in**  **20 the analysis we'd love to know that and it**  **21 would be important to have because people have**  **22 just a real problem.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Lois?**  **2 MS. STARKEY: I'd just like some**  **3 clarification as to where we're going with**  **4 this. Because it sounds like we -- are we**  **5 back to four zones or five zones, and**  **6 different U values than are proposed here? I**  **7 mean, with the exception of a few tweaks.**  **8 I'd like to see us kind of come to**  **9 terms with some parameters of a standard. I**  **10 mean.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: And I think that with**  **12 the U values we might have to play with that**  **13 a little bit, right?**  **14 But as far as the climate zones, how**  **15 does everyone feel about the three climate**  **16 zones?**  **17 MR. ROY: I think 6 and 7 stick out.**  **18 They look weird. They just don't do it for**  **19 me.**  **20 HUD zone 3 going from the Tidewater**  **21 Virginia and Las Vegas to the Canadian border**  **22 is weird.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: If you just look at**  **2 Emanuel's page 5, this is -- I kind of went**  **3 over this before. If you look at the Uo**  **4 values there's some natural divisions in my**  **5 mind, right?**  **6 You can group IECC climate zone 1**  **7 and 2, then you can group 3 and 4, then you**  **8 can group 5 and 6, and then you can group 7**  **9 and 8, right?**  **10 MR. ROY: Eight is the last one?**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, 8 would be the**  **12 last group.**  **13 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **14 MR. SANTANA: I don't think we can**  **15 get into the discussion on the zones until we**  **16 establish U values first. You know, the**  **17 establishment of the U value is what's going**  **18 to allow you to lump things into zones.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, so Manny, in my**  **20 mind, you know, the -- so in my mind the U**  **21 values that Emanuel has presented on page 5**  **22 don't really differ from what he's shown us on** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 page 8.**  **2 But the ones on page 5 are kind of**  **3 better justified by the 10-year look, 10-year**  **4 with recapture.**  **5 So I mean, I guess the question is**  **6 to the manufacturers is how palatable are**  **7 these U values that are on page 5.**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, could we stick**  **9 to the last two zones?**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's just stick with**  **11 -- let's just part the climate zone situation,**  **12 just however the Uo values with the current**  **13 presented IECC climate zones. I mean, do they**  **14 seem --**  **15 MR. SANTANA: So, just where I'm**  **16 standing I think the U values on page 5 in my**  **17 mind are justifiable.**  **18 I think the approach of how you got**  **19 to the --**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, we can't hear you.**  **21 MR. SANTANA: I'm sorry, how am I**  **22 now?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. If you could**  **2 repeat.**  **3 MR. SANTANA: Which part, the whole**  **4 thing?**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, start from the**  **6 beginning.**  **7 MR. SANTANA: Okay. What I was**  **8 saying is I think just from my perspective is**  **9 that the U values on slide 5 are justifiable.**  **10 I can see where they come from. I**  **11 can see what incremental benefit they have and**  **12 I don't have an issue with them.**  **13 But just the fact that there's too**  **14 many of them. I try to group them into**  **15 chunks.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. So, Joe**  **17 Hagerman, DOE. I think they group themselves**  **18 in chunks, right? Just those natural**  **19 divisions of climate zone 1 and 2, and 3 and**  **20 4, and 5 and 6, and then 7 and 8.**  **21 MR. SANTANA: You know -- this is**  **22 Manny -- when you look at the map there's only** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a few areas that really are not consistent**  **2 with grouping. But the country as a whole I**  **3 think lends itself to being grouped.**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: And Manny, what kind**  **5 of grouping are you proposing?**  **6 MR. SANTANA: Well, I like the idea**  **7 of the three zones. You know, I actually**  **8 don't have a problem with what Emanuel did.**  **9 You know, he might have gone too far by adding**  **10 single sections with double sections. But I**  **11 think we can take another look at his proposal**  **12 here and before we just put it aside.**  **13 As we can see, after Emanuel was**  **14 done presenting Matthew came up and he gave**  **15 lifecycle numbers for the packages that**  **16 Emanuel's method determined.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, just to be**  **18 clear, I think he gave the 10-year look with**  **19 residual of the packages that are on page 5 of**  **20 Emanuel's document.**  **21 MR. SANTANA: Right.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: So, what I'm hearing** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 though is that the possibility of looking at**  **2 creating your own climate zones here, right?**  **3 Where not necessarily HUD or 2015 IECC, it's**  **4 a combination of some of these 2015 IECC**  **5 zones.**  **6 And according to the U values that**  **7 are in Manny's chart I think at least 1 and 2**  **8 would be one zone, 3 and 4 would be another,**  **9 4 and 5 would be another. Is that that I'm**  **10 hearing?**  **11 MR. ROY: I would say something.**  **12 This is Robin. I wouldn't say it's creating**  **13 -- if you want an IECC-based definition you**  **14 wouldn't be creating these zones. You would**  **15 just be giving one number for two zones. IECC**  **16 zones 1 and 2 would have the same numbers.**  **17 It's not creating anything new.**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, I see. So in a**  **19 sense you're lumping them so that it's easier**  **20 to administer.**  **21 MR. ROY: Well, the numbers which**  **22 show up on page 5 are already identical for 1** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and 2, and they're identical for 3 and 4, and**  **2 they're identical for 5 and 6, and they're**  **3 identical for 7 and 8. So, it seems like it's**  **4 naturally grouped into four zones.**  **5 I could imagine dropping one of**  **6 those. But which one would it be?**  **7 MS. STARKEY: Just for the sake of**  **8 discussion, you know, it's what, the two**  **9 Dakotas, Minnesota and Michigan.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: How many units are**  **11 sold up in those zones?**  **12 MR. SANTANA: This is Manny. What's**  **13 captured -- you know, the thing to notice.**  **14 These numbers only reflect the U values from**  **15 the packages, but they're not weighted at all.**  **16 So when you go into grouping zones**  **17 and you say, well, grouping 0.051 and 0.59, I**  **18 don't feel really comfortable with that.**  **19 But you know, you think of how many**  **20 units should go in there versus what's going**  **21 in this house, right, you might try to put a**  **22 little --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, we need that**  **2 data. I think everybody here is reasonable**  **3 people, we just need some data to support the**  **4 decisions that we're all going to have to vote**  **5 on, right?**  **6 MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo. I**  **7 agree with what you said, Manny. I think**  **8 that's -- to me, that's the way I read what**  **9 Emanuel did. He went from what we were**  **10 looking at on page 5, right, that has all the**  **11 zones.**  **12 And to your point, Manny, about how**  **13 it looks like 1 and 2 are together, 3 and 4**  **14 are together, 5 and 6 are together, and you've**  **15 got 7 and 8 kind of out there on its own.**  **16 And the fact that 7 and 8 is such a**  **17 low number of units shipped per year, that's**  **18 why I like what Emanuel did with page 8 where**  **19 he took the page 5 and he simplified it down**  **20 into Uo numbers that would work in the three**  **21 current HUD code climate zones.**  **22 MR. ROY: Mark, this is Robin. As I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 understand page 7, what Emanuel combined was**  **2 really for HUD zone 1 he combined IECC zones**  **3 2 and 3. Yes, 1 is in there too, but it's**  **4 negligible.**  **5 MR. EZZO: Yes.**  **6 MR. ROY: So it's 2 and 3.**  **7 MR. EZZO: I agree.**  **8 MR. ROY: Which are 0.67 and 0.85**  **9 which are so substantially different.**  **10 MR. EZZO: Well, but when you --**  **11 okay.**  **12 MR. ROY: It's combining IECC zones**  **13 2 and 3. That's the heart of the HUD zone 1.**  **14 It's 2 and 3. And 2 and 3 are very different**  **15 U values. IECC 2 and 3 are 0.067 and 0.085,**  **16 right? Is that not right? They're very, very**  **17 different. That's part of the challenge of**  **18 the way the HUD zones are drawn. It goes**  **19 different places.**  **20 I mean, HUD zone 1 -- am I not**  **21 right?**  **22 MR. UNGAR: Sorry, I think Robin is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 looking at the -- page 2, the prescriptive**  **2 requirements before the adjustments, not after**  **3 adjustments. At IECC zones 2 and 3 for**  **4 single-wide. My understanding.**  **5 MR. ROY: Yes.**  **6 MR. LACEY: Page 2 has that on the**  **7 far right column. You're looking at the map.**  **8 It says the same thing.**  **9 MR. UNGAR: The map would be the**  **10 same. But it's before adjustments, not after**  **11 adjustments.**  **12 MR. ROY: Oh, I see. So 0.087 and**  **13 0.07. So that's a big gap. It's like a 24**  **14 percent gap. That's big.**  **15 It's just a funny design, HUD zone**  **16 1. Actually, HUD zone 3 is a funny design**  **17 too. And while you're at it 2 is kind of**  **18 strange as well. Las Vegas the Tidewater**  **19 Virginia and the northern border of the**  **20 country. It's all funny. That's all zone 3.**  **21 MR. EZZO: This is Mark again. Yes,**  **22 and I think where you look at Matthew's LCC** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 numbers to me that's where it all sort of kind**  **2 of comes to a conclusion that makes some**  **3 sense.**  **4 Because I'm looking at the far right**  **5 column where we have most of the numbers in**  **6 the black. And I think those were based on**  **7 Emanuel's page 5. Correct me if I'm wrong.**  **8 MR. ROY: Right, that's correct.**  **9 MR. EZZO: So I think we're getting**  **10 close. I think we're getting close, but I**  **11 think what we need to do now is somehow pare**  **12 down his page 5 that has all those different**  **13 zones into three.**  **14 Because didn't we all I guess**  **15 tentatively agree that we want to end up with**  **16 three zones when this is all over?**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: I don't know. I think**  **18 it was the discussion of whether it be the HUD**  **19 3 zones, or the 2015, or something other I**  **20 think is even we'll put them up there. I**  **21 mean, this may be the other.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 Just real quick. **2 I mean, I sort of agree with you, 3 Mark. It just seems like the numbers on the**  **4 Uo values on page 5 of Emanuel's sheet 5 naturally get us down to more than -- I mean,**  **6 sorry, less than the eight climate zones of 7 IECC. So I think we can agree with Matt just**  **8 on how the numbers kind of naturally group 9 themselves. It gives you four.**  **10 Now, let's take off the easiest one 11 first, right? Or let's talk through the**  **12 easiest one first. 13 IECC climate zone 7 and 8 I think**  **14 deals with -- all these states are grouped 15 together, Michigan, Montana, shoot, I don't**  **16 know all my acronyms, North Dakota -- 17 MS. HOFFMAN: South Dakota.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Minnesota. 19 MR. UNGAR: This is Lowell. Are we**  **20 okay with, you know, whether it's three or 21 four zones, but zones that are not by state,**  **22 but by county if I recall.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I can't tell whether this is -- it**  **2 seems to me that you get a much better result**  **3 if we can do a better, you know, map these**  **4 zones the way that we're talking about.**  **5 But I guess I haven't heard from**  **6 industry if that's a -- given that you're**  **7 going to get zones that make more sense you're**  **8 going to get a standard which is better**  **9 attuned to each location. Is that an okay**  **10 result?**  **11 You can then deal with these maps**  **12 which are not by state.**  **13 MR. EZZO: Lowell, I weighed in last**  **14 time when we had that discussion and I**  **15 expressed concern over changing the current**  **16 HUD code boundaries.**  **17 Because a lot of HUD code shipments**  **18 are for inventory and stock. And retailers**  **19 that inventory a lot don't -- they don't**  **20 necessarily know where those homes are going**  **21 to go. So the more complicated we make with**  **22 the boundaries the harder it's going to make** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 for them.**  **2 Now, I'm not saying that it can't be**  **3 done because like other people have mentioned**  **4 in the modular world where we're dealing with**  **5 the by-county boundaries that are in the IECC.**  **6 But typically in the modular world**  **7 just about every home sold is a retail-sold**  **8 home. They're not inventorying modular homes**  **9 for the most part. So in that world there's**  **10 quite a bit of inventory and stock.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: Let me just close out**  **12 one thing. So I just wanted a statement of**  **13 fact.**  **14 If you look at the 2013 shipment**  **15 data in climate zones 7 and 8 it's roughly 4**  **16 to 5 percent of all shipments. So you need to**  **17 decide whether it needs to be its climate zone**  **18 or not.**  **19 This is from the HUD data. And you**  **20 can run the numbers yourself. You have to**  **21 kind of make a judgment about Michigan so I**  **22 just took half of the number.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. UNGAR: This is Lowell. Again,**  **2 if you use the HUD zones you're going to have**  **3 a standard in Las Vegas that is probably more**  **4 attuned to Wisconsin. Right? I mean, that's**  **5 the price you pay.**  **6 I'm not saying we can't do it.**  **7 Personally I can support either one. I just**  **8 don't want complaints about why we have a**  **9 standard that doesn't work for Las Vegas.**  **10 If you really want HUD zones, okay,**  **11 let's work with it. But then accept that the**  **12 zones have to be then attuned to where most of**  **13 the sales are.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Is somebody trying to**  **15 talk online? Oh, okay.**  **16 So, am I hearing then the**  **17 possibility of 1 and 2 combined as one zone,**  **18 3 and 4 as one zone, and then 5, 6, 7 and 8 as**  **19 another?**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: That looks sensible**  **21 to me.**  **22 MR. LACEY: I just have a question** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 from the HUD veterans in the room and on the**  **2 phone.**  **3 Are the HUD zones used for anything**  **4 other than the energy standard? I mean, are**  **5 there other things that go by HUD zones 1, 2**  **6 and 3, or is it just for the energy efficiency**  **7 requirements?**  **8 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: The folks that are**  **10 online, if you're not going to talk at that**  **11 moment if you could mute we'd appreciate that.**  **12 MR. LACEY: It just seems like it**  **13 would be easier. I mean, I don't have a real**  **14 dog in the fight. I do think it would be**  **15 better if you could get a little more**  **16 accurate. And I tend to agree with lining up**  **17 with the IECC, especially if you're already**  **18 building the other homes --**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I ask --**  **20 MR. LACEY: -- the modular homes to**  **21 the IECC map. If there are other things**  **22 attached to the HUD climate zone map it might** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 be more challenging, but it sounds like this**  **2 is only used for energy efficiency so it might**  **3 be a little easier to tweak it.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I ask another**  **5 question? This is certainly slightly inverse**  **6 of what Eric just said.**  **7 So, since there -- I think Rick just**  **8 said there's three other maps that are in the**  **9 --**  **10 MR. MENDLEN: There's three maps**  **11 total.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Three maps total, all**  **13 right. So the three maps total in the HUD.**  **14 There might be four now? There are four?**  **15 MR. MENDLEN: There's a -- I forgot**  **16 about the HUD wind zone map. There's a wind**  **17 zone map, a roof zone map, a thermal zone map**  **18 and then a hot and humid zone map.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, so all those**  **20 maps, do they divide up all those maps by**  **21 state boundaries? Or are there some maps that**  **22 are divided up by other factors?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. MENDLEN: The wind map is done**  **2 by counties. The roof map is also done by**  **3 counties.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: So there's no real --**  **5 MR. MENDLEN: -- today I was curious**  **6 about the zones. These are the three same**  **7 zones that we had in 1975 when I had to work**  **8 out all this without a 21-person panel to help**  **9 me.**  **10 (Laughter)**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: So this seems like**  **12 there's precedent then that we don't actually**  **13 have to draw these things by the state**  **14 boundaries. Is that correct? If all the**  **15 other maps in the HUD book doesn't go by state**  **16 boundaries why are we bound to state**  **17 boundaries here?**  **18 MR. ROY: This is Robin. That's**  **19 very interesting that they're making --**  **20 because the wind is a big deal for safety,**  **21 right? So, the manufacturers must be fairly**  **22 attuned to this location issue. I don't know** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 how they deal with it with the retailers**  **2 sitting in the middle and not sure where their**  **3 products are going. It's interesting. I**  **4 guess it's harder.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: So when you say this**  **6 is harder, the combining of IECC.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: It seems like we**  **8 should just draw our own boundaries according**  **9 to IECC by just grouping 1 and 2 together and**  **10 draw the map, and then grouping 3 and 4 and**  **11 draw the map, and then grouping 5 and 6 and**  **12 draw the map. And I think 7 and 8 are still**  **13 on the table since it's only 4 percent of the**  **14 shipments and the U factor difference is just**  **15 0.008, you know. But that's for you all to**  **16 decide.**  **17 MR. MENDLEN: Also, don't forget**  **18 Alaska.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Oh okay, and Alaska.**  **20 MR. ROY: That's 8, right?**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me gauge the level**  **22 of consensus on that. So, I'm going to check** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the level of consensus for three zones, one**  **2 combining 1 and 2 of the IECC as one, 3 and 4**  **3 as another, 5, 6, 7 and 8 as a third. And**  **4 we'll see a show of gloves of how you feel as**  **5 far as those zones.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: Do we need some more**  **7 conversation from the manufacturers? I mean,**  **8 I'd like to really hear from them.**  **9 I'm not trying to be insensitive to**  **10 Mark's concerns, but I just think that we need**  **11 to recognize that the other maps aren't drawn**  **12 by these state lines and just have a**  **13 discussion about it.**  **14 I clearly understand that there's a**  **15 need to educate everybody, the home-buyers,**  **16 the dealers, everybody on the changes that**  **17 we're going to present in this new standard.**  **18 So I agree that there's some education that**  **19 the DOE needs to help pay for to help the**  **20 industry understand how these standards are**  **21 going to impact their product and to sell**  **22 their product.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But notwithstanding that could you**  **2 tell us more about if we had to redraw this**  **3 map the impacts?**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Richard, you had a**  **5 comment?**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: I think Mark was**  **7 trying to talk.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark?**  **9 MR. EZZO: I was going to say that**  **10 the other maps that Rick Mendlen was referring**  **11 to, the humid and fringe, it does follow the**  **12 county line. And the wind follows county**  **13 line.**  **14 Those are isolated to a fairly small**  **15 part of the country. I mean, for instance,**  **16 the wind zones as you guys know, everybody**  **17 knows is basically Gulf Coast and up the South**  **18 Atlantic. So it's not hitting the entire**  **19 country obviously.**  **20 It's something that people have**  **21 gotten used to and it's not that cumbersome.**  **22 And the roof map is similar. If you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 look at the roof map it largely goes by state**  **2 boundary. There are some exceptions though**  **3 obviously. But it's a fairly simple map to**  **4 follow as well.**  **5 And I'm probably being selfish here**  **6 because I represent a lot of plants and a**  **7 whole lot of retailers.**  **8 And I went out to them and asked**  **9 them the question about the climate zone**  **10 boundaries, current HUD code versus what's in**  **11 the IECC.**  **12 So I got an awful lot of feedback.**  **13 And it's relatively unanimous. So that's**  **14 where my vote on this is coming from.**  **15 From a technical standpoint it makes**  **16 sense to change the boundaries from what we**  **17 currently use to something more in line with**  **18 the IECC boundaries. I understand the**  **19 argument for that completely from a technical**  **20 standpoint.**  **21 But I'm just looking at it from**  **22 logistics, from inventory, stock units, like** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I said.**  **2 And then I'm also kind of wondering**  **3 how much more accuracy are we really going to**  **4 get if we change these boundaries from where**  **5 they're at today.**  **6 So anyway, that's my two cents on**  **7 it.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: So, Mark. Can I ask**  **9 you just a quick follow-up question? When you**  **10 asked your -- so that's very helpful. It's**  **11 very good to get that information.**  **12 When you asked your dealers and your**  **13 manufacturers about the impacts of changing**  **14 the climate zones did you ask, like would they**  **15 have frustration if we changed the climate**  **16 zones and let's say just maintained state**  **17 boundaries? Or are they just against**  **18 completely changing any of the zones? Do you**  **19 follow that?**  **20 MR. EZZO: Yes, that's a good**  **21 question, Joe. And I didn't ask it that way.**  **22 But I think I've got a pretty high level of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 confidence that I can say they would prefer no**  **2 change, obviously.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.**  **4 MR. EZZO: But if we were going to**  **5 change, if you could keep it on state**  **6 boundaries I think most of them would say they**  **7 would prefer that if we could do that.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. That's**  **9 helpful.**  **10 MR. EZZO: Where it gets challenging**  **11 is if you look at the map what happens today**  **12 with a lot of the retailers that ship in from**  **13 multiple zones is a lot of them ship into two**  **14 zones.**  **15 And so what they'll typically do is**  **16 just stock worst case because they don't know**  **17 where the home's going.**  **18 And today stocking a worst case -- I**  **19 shouldn't say worst case, but most restrictive**  **20 energy standard is not a huge leap.**  **21 But going forward I think that's**  **22 going to be a little bit more of a challenge** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 for a retailer, say, in, I don't know, in one**  **2 of the areas where their distribution radius**  **3 covers multiple zones.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: So, Joe Hagerman**  **5 again. It just strikes me like Texas is a**  **6 really hard state to deal with, right?**  **7 MR. EZZO: Yes.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Where it would**  **9 naturally fall under, well, the panhandle**  **10 would fall under IECC 2 which has a U value**  **11 for a single-wide of 0.087. And the rest of**  **12 the state would be climate zone 3 which would**  **13 be a 0.07.**  **14 MR. EZZO: Right.**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: So, okay.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Rich?**  **17 MR. POTTS: Richard Potts. Just on**  **18 the stocking of worst case or most energy**  **19 efficient home within that zone kind of drives**  **20 home the affordability point.**  **21 The example of Tidewater Virginia**  **22 where I'm from potentially paying just as much** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 energy efficiency-wise when they might not**  **2 have to as a home up in the northern portion**  **3 of the country.**  **4 I don't know what that cost**  **5 difference would be, but when you compare it**  **6 to the IECC zones it might be fairly drastic.**  **7 So I like Joe's approach. And then**  **8 maybe as a compromise even including the 7 and**  **9 8 within the upper range.**  **10 But I understand. I see all the**  **11 island climate zones up there and how that**  **12 might present a logistical problem for the**  **13 manufacturers. So I understand that. But it**  **14 makes sense to me to group them just where**  **15 they fall, where it makes the most sense.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: So, can I ask the**  **17 question? So if Mark or -- so thank you,**  **18 those are important comments, Richard.**  **19 What would be worst case if you're**  **20 looking at Texas?**  **21 MR. EZZO: Yes. So I think what**  **22 we're talking about is grouping IECC 1 and 2** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 into Texas, correct?**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, that's -- yes.**  **3 How do we group IECC 1 and 2 as a group and**  **4 IECC 3 and 4 across these states in some**  **5 logical fashion where it's equitable to**  **6 everybody, right?**  **7 Because it looks like Mississippi**  **8 and Alabama and Georgia are sort of getting**  **9 disenfranchised because they're in HUD climate**  **10 zone 1 when they probably should be in -- I'm**  **11 sorry. HUD climate zone 1 but yet they should**  **12 be in IECC climate zone 3, right?**  **13 MR. EZZO: Yes.**  **14 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **15 Lubliner.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.**  **17 MR. LUBLINER: I really, really have**  **18 a hard time with combining IECC 3 and 4. The**  **19 Northwest is building 60 percent of its homes**  **20 right now, well current practice homes and the**  **21 Energy Star homes to 0.059 throughout the**  **22 States of Oregon and Washington.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I don't think you can split that**  **2 state into two climate zones without our**  **3 clients, the northwest utilities who have**  **4 invested hundreds of millions of dollars**  **5 really screaming. I don't think that's**  **6 equitable at all based on the uniqueness of**  **7 the fact that we have 50 percent cash and of**  **8 the other 50 percent, 90 percent are loans**  **9 with conventional mortgages. We're 90 percent**  **10 electric furnace.**  **11 When you start looking at all these**  **12 things their heads are going to explode if**  **13 they get lumped in a climate zone that's less**  **14 than what they have now. So that's a**  **15 deal-breaker for my client, I believe.**  **16 MR. SANTANA: The fact that even so**  **17 -- Manny with Cavco, I -- two statements here.**  **18 One, in response to Michael's**  **19 statement here. If your customers are**  **20 currently building to a 0.059 in Oregon which**  **21 is currently an 0.079 and you met that I don't**  **22 see how, you know, grouping it in two zones** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 matters. You can still build to 0.059.**  **2 (Simultaneous Speaking)**  **3 MR. LUBLINER: -- can't.**  **4 MR. SANTANA: The thing I wanted to**  **5 say is I want to make sure we all understand,**  **6 we're not just talking about changing**  **7 boundaries of the zones in the sense of --**  **8 take, for example, Texas which is responsible**  **9 for 24 percent of the industry's production.**  **10 Say we split that state in half and**  **11 part of it is going to be the new HUD zone 1**  **12 with a U value of 0.085 or thereabouts, and**  **13 the other half is going to be HUD zone 2 with**  **14 a new U value of 0.067.**  **15 So that's a new U value of 0.067 or**  **16 thereabouts when they're used to building**  **17 0.116. It's going to be a very drastic change**  **18 for the folks in that state. We're going to**  **19 want to make sure all the costs and the**  **20 lifecycle costs and all that stuff is well**  **21 vetted if we're going to take that approach.**  **22 You know, where we're talking about** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 20 percent of the industry's production.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael --**  **3 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **4 Lubliner. I'd just like to follow up on that**  **5 for a second. I don't want to spend too much**  **6 time on this.**  **7 I'm just telling you, this is a**  **8 no-brainer. If we get -- if the new minimum**  **9 comes in for western Washington and western**  **10 Oregon, the minimum less than what the current**  **11 practice is now the manufacturers are going to**  **12 have an unlevel playing field that's even**  **13 worse. And we're going to see less efficiency**  **14 because it's going to be driven to the bottom**  **15 of the barrel.**  **16 I really do believe that you need to**  **17 include the States of Oregon, Washington and**  **18 probably northern California in the coldest**  **19 HUD climate zone.**  **20 Again, I won't support -- anything**  **21 less than that is not something I don't think**  **22 my clients are going to support.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get Mark and**  **2 then Lois.**  **3 MR. WEISS: Two things. As I**  **4 mentioned previously there's inherent tension**  **5 between trying to fine-tune -- the potential**  **6 benefits of fine-tuning this to a greater**  **7 degree than it already is.**  **8 Like Richard was referring to,**  **9 having Las Vegas and then Tidewater Virginia**  **10 in the same zone versus staying with a system**  **11 that permits standardization, uniformity to**  **12 the greatest degree possible which also drives**  **13 affordability.**  **14 So, I do know what Joe is saying and**  **15 I mean, my preference sitting here right now**  **16 would be to maintain three zones based on**  **17 state lines rather than county lines. When**  **18 you start splitting states that's a problem in**  **19 and of itself, particularly when you get the**  **20 smaller manufacturers who are serving a**  **21 smaller customer area.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. STARKEY: I would need to go**  **2 back to my members if we were going to start**  **3 splitting zones by counties or other than**  **4 state boundaries. I just don't feel**  **5 comfortable with that right now, but maybe if**  **6 we could demonstrate the costs and the**  **7 benefits, the costs and if those U values**  **8 change maybe that would be something else.**  **9 But I don't feel real comfortable.**  **10 I could see arguing for four zones, but again**  **11 that would have to be by states.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean, you can --**  **13 Joe Hagerman, DOE -- you can see the color**  **14 code problem in front of us.**  **15 MS. STARKEY: Yes.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: It's kind of like,**  **17 you know, for sure pull the line up to capture**  **18 Virginia and all those yellow states up there.**  **19 20**  **And then what do we do about the big 21**  **discrepancy in Texas. And then -- I need to 22**  **brush up on all my states.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: I just, I'm hearing**  **2 the talk about the state lines.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Basically you're**  **4 going to drive everybody that's in HUD climate**  **5 zone 1 to, you know, 0.087, right? Or 0.070.**  **6 I'm sorry, 0.070.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: There aren't clean**  **8 lines right now.**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: 0.068.**  **10 MR. LACEY: At least the IECC lines**  **11 are based on climate data. I mean, as opposed**  **12 to just state lines.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: But the HUD code --**  **14 just excuse me, the three zones, were they by**  **15 state or by county?**  **16 MS. STARKEY: By state.**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh they were by state.**  **18 Okay. So they were by state.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Could you ever**  **20 conceive of allowing the manufacturer to**  **21 choose and then just label the product whether**  **22 or not it met the IECC version of the zones,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 or some modified HUD code version of the**  **2 zones? Would that make any sense? As long as**  **3 there's a label.**  **4 MR. EZZO: Joe, this is Mark Ezzo.**  **5 I think that would be complicated for retail**  **6 world who -- from multiple manufacturers.**  **7 Their head would spin.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.**  **9 MR. LUTER: This is Rob at Lippert.**  **10 I think that would present some challenges on**  **11 the manufacturing side too as far as getting**  **12 the right label on the right product.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm happy to hear a**  **14 suggestion.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: If you're really**  **16 talking about state lines are you saying the**  **17 current three HUD zones? Or is there a**  **18 different map?**  **19 MR. ROY: This is Robin. Actually,**  **20 maybe the good thing is, Lois, if you'd go**  **21 back and talk to your members and caucus with**  **22 them separately and see just how painful and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 costly and possible it would be to follow**  **2 three zones that are based on weather**  **3 conditions.**  **4 I understand how this is along state**  **5 lines and it is complicated, but there may be**  **6 something you guys can talk more freely**  **7 amongst yourselves and get back. I think that**  **8 could be useful.**  **9 MS. STARKEY: Yes. We've had lots**  **10 of discussions about it and they keep coming**  **11 back to the state boundaries.**  **12 So I think if there's value in the**  **13 cost-effectiveness issue definitely I think,**  **14 you know, if they can say oh well geez, it's**  **15 going to cost me less to sell these homes in**  **16 this zone versus if we go to some other U**  **17 value or -- I'm happy to do that.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Let me just say too.**  **19 So, maybe Lois and Mark could go back to both**  **20 of your all's members.**  **21 And then also maybe we could sort of**  **22 park the discussion for now about the climate** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 zones. And what we can move back to is what**  **2 Matthew is working on so we can at least give**  **3 you when you go back to your members, give**  **4 them a map that has the updated U values that**  **5 we sort of all agree on after seeing the**  **6 10-year -- not the LCC, the 10-year plus**  **7 residual analysis.**  **8 Because at least we can move this**  **9 map forward a little bit more of getting some**  **10 revised numbers up there.**  **11 MS. HOFFMAN: You may recall -- this**  **12 is Eileen -- one of our earliest meetings we**  **13 talked about climate zones. And people said**  **14 well, let's wait and see the numbers and see**  **15 if it makes a difference in how it can be**  **16 clustered.**  **17 So, maybe -- but talking to your**  **18 members makes a lot of sense to get a feel for**  **19 it. Because if it's not --**  **20 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **21 Lubliner.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **2 Lubliner. That's exactly why I've been trying**  **3 to encourage this group to talk about this**  **4 earlier.**  **5 At this late date dropping this down**  **6 on the table and saying that, you know, again**  **7 back to the Northwest scenario, that we're**  **8 going to de-rate the savings in eastern**  **9 Washington versus western Washington.**  **10 It's a non-starter with my client**  **11 groups that have worked with the industry in**  **12 partnership to produce this product at a very**  **13 high level.**  **14 This will smack in the face of our**  **15 market transformation venture and our ability**  **16 to achieve the utility goals of the Federal**  **17 Northwest Power Planning Act.**  **18 I do believe that the sooner we do**  **19 the analysis, the technical analysis, and if**  **20 it shows that a particular climate zone has a**  **21 lower lifecycle cost than the minimum HUD base**  **22 now that's what we should be going off of.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But to suggest that we're going to**  **2 start making these -- gerrymandering or**  **3 whatever at this late date is really of**  **4 concern to me. And I think it will be to my**  **5 client as well.**  **6 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: This was never -- just**  **8 to correct just one thing though. The**  **9 meetings I've been in this has always been out**  **10 there. We hadn't ever firmly decided it. So**  **11 it's -- just to set the record straight.**  **12 MR. ROY: Mike, this is Robin. One**  **13 thing I'm wondering, you're saying that if**  **14 anything comes back for Oregon, for example,**  **15 that's less than 0.059 it's a complete**  **16 nonstarter? Am I hearing you properly?**  **17 MR. LUBLINER: Absolutely. If we**  **18 don't get a regional Northwest**  **19 Power/Bonneville service area, one number that**  **20 works that's at least what we're at now with**  **21 our programs which is about 0.059 we're going**  **22 to have a hard time.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 We're going to have utilities**  **2 looking at all kinds of alternatives, carrots**  **3 and sticks. And I think the client will be --**  **4 I think we're good with what we have.**  **5 But now all of a sudden you start**  **6 splitting it out so a dealer that's in eastern**  **7 Washington shipping to western Washington has**  **8 to meet an 0.067 as opposed to an 0.059. Yes,**  **9 heads are going to explode, I think, in my**  **10 region. I'm just telling you what's going to**  **11 happen.**  **12 MR. ROY: I just want to clarify**  **13 because all I can say to that, I don't think**  **14 we're ever going to get to an 0.059 for**  **15 western Oregon. I just can't imagine we would**  **16 go there.**  **17 But if that's what the expectation**  **18 was that's problematic from the start. I**  **19 think.**  **20 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **21 MR. LUBLINER: -- talking about was**  **22 0.061.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. ROY: So, a question for Joe.**  **2 Is it also possible to help with Lois and her**  **3 members, and Mark and his members to draw a**  **4 new map that is color-coded in three zones?**  **5 That's combining IECC 1 and 2, combining 3 and**  **6 4, combining 5, 6, 7 and 8? It's a lot nicer**  **7 to have three colors than the whatever there.**  **8 This is confusing. Just to help with their**  **9 conversation.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Let me repeat what I**  **11 think I heard you say. So, make a colored map**  **12 that has four zones and just draw IECC 1 and**  **13 2 and color it the same. And then 3 and 4**  **14 color it the same. And 5 and 6 color it the**  **15 same. And 7 and 8. Okay.**  **16 MR. ROY: Five, six, seven and**  **17 Alaska, I guess that's what you used to do?**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, you need to**  **19 decide. I mean, it's 5, 6, 7. There's 5 and**  **20 6, and then there's 7 and 8.**  **21 MR. ROY: You told me that 4 percent**  **22 shipment to zone 7, that kind of -- I was over** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it. But maybe if others are not.**  **2 I was hoping to have something**  **3 that's simpler and easier for them to discuss**  **4 in front of them, something like that.**  **5 MR. LACEY: Those three climate**  **6 zones would make sense. I would just go and**  **7 lump in. Alaska has the same requirements as**  **8 Minnesota anyway.**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: Can we go ahead and**  **10 vote to lump in IECC 5, 6, 7 and 8 as one**  **11 zone? For the purposes of a map.**  **12 MR. LACEY: All right. I'll do that**  **13 for the purpose of the map.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: As far as timing goes**  **15 when could you get that out?**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: I'll ask. I mean**  **17 Navigant could easily do that tonight.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, because**  **19 I'm looking at this and trying to figure out**  **20 -- I understand there's some discussions that**  **21 need to be had. Is that going to happen**  **22 tonight? Is that something that we are going** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to try and reach some type of conclusion by**  **2 tomorrow?**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: I think they have to**  **4 go back to their membership.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: We have to go back.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: We can re-present it**  **7 tomorrow. So we can just kind of talk over it**  **8 one more time just so you can see all the new**  **9 colors up there.**  **10 MS. HOFFMAN: Because you could do**  **11 it two maps, one with the colors with these**  **12 and one with states and see how that would be.**  **13 MR. ROY: You have to define the**  **14 states if you're going to say that.**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: We can't say the**  **16 states. We'll just color those zones.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: And then are we also**  **18 --**  **19 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner**  **20 again.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Michael.**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I'd like to also** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 see climate zone 4 lumped in with 5 and 6.**  **2 I'd also like to see that map.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: So, let me just make**  **4 sure I'm hearing you correctly.**  **5 So, a second map that groups IECC 1**  **6 and 2 together, then leaves 3 by itself, and**  **7 then lumps in 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8?**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: Yes.**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.**  **10 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco. How**  **11 -- if a U value for zone 4 is the same as a U**  **12 value for zone 3 why would you lump in zone 4**  **13 in with 5, 6, 7 and 8, but leave zone 3 alone?**  **14 Going off of that logic you might as**  **15 well just have a zone from the middle Texas on**  **16 up through 5, 6 and 7. That doesn't make**  **17 sense.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: I'll tell you what.**  **19 Instead of getting into that today we'll run**  **20 it.**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Run two maps.**  **22 MR. LACEY: I'll run two maps. It's** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 easy.**  **2 MR. UNGAR: We can run two maps. If**  **3 I might suggest while it's counter to my**  **4 interest I think that I think in that if we**  **5 went with these zones that the solution to**  **6 Luby's problem might be to take the western**  **7 parts of Oregon and Washington and just add**  **8 them into the third zone. Rather than keep**  **9 them all in zone 4, in IECC zone 4, we could**  **10 just take western Oregon and Washington and**  **11 move them.**  **12 MR. LUBLINER: I would accept that**  **13 and I think our retailers out here would also**  **14 appreciate that as will our utility grid and**  **15 their lawyers.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: So using basically the**  **17 line of the IECC as that.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: So why don't we do**  **19 this. Mike Lubliner, since I'm not sure I**  **20 follow exactly everything that you all are**  **21 talking about.**  **22 Could you just draw up the map that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you're asking to see? And then maybe send it**  **2 to --**  **3 MR. LUBLINER: I can give it to you.**  **4 Right now you've got --**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: I think if you could**  **6 just send it to Navigant then they could**  **7 colorize it and make it professional looking.**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: Why don't you email**  **9 them?**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: Basically all I'm**  **11 saying is the yellow in Washington and Oregon**  **12 should be green.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. You follow**  **14 that, guys?**  **15 MR. ROY: This is Robin. Can I also**  **16 ask Lois and Mark when you're consulting your**  **17 members, because you do have manufacturers in**  **18 the yellow areas of Washington and Oregon,**  **19 what they would -- if it's really fine with**  **20 them. It's fine.**  **21 I mean, you decide what you want in**  **22 terms of these maps. But you've got members** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 out there, not just retailers.**  **2 MR. TOMPOS: We're making that all**  **3 green because? I mean, the IECC says this is**  **4 what it is, but we're saying we need to make**  **5 it higher than the IECC because Mike Lubliner**  **6 likes it that way?**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: We're not making**  **8 anything. All we're doing is making a map.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: We're making a map.**  **10 We're not doing anything.**  **11 MR. TOMPOS: Okay, okay.**  **12 MR. LUBLINER: It's not because I**  **13 like it, though I do like it. It's because**  **14 it's cost-effective. That's why we do it. It**  **15 has a lower lifecycle cost than the minimum**  **16 HUD code. That's why we do it.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark?**  **18 MR. SANTANA: This won't prohibit**  **19 you from doing anything. The U knot for that**  **20 zone is currently 0.079. If Oregon is split**  **21 in half with half being 0.067 and the other**  **22 half being 0.059 per the current IECC map, and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you moved everything to 0.059, you won't have**  **2 any issues. You can send that 0.059 out**  **3 anywhere you have the ability. I don't**  **4 understand why there's such an issue.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, well we'll**  **6 --**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: We'll deal with this**  **8 later.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, when we're trying**  **10 to actually finalize the map. Mark?**  **11 MR. WEISS: Just to recognize Rick.**  **12 MR. MENDLEN: Thank you. I just**  **13 thought it might be useful to tell you that**  **14 when we did the three-zone map umpteen years**  **15 ago, almost 40 now, we had to make some**  **16 compromises in order to keep the boundaries**  **17 along state lines because that's where the**  **18 comments took us in terms of U values and**  **19 everything else.**  **20 And I don't know whether or not, you**  **21 know, Joe your problem with splitting Texas as**  **22 an example which is probably the best** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 four-star example we've got up there into --**  **2 maybe you take the most conservative approach**  **3 in some cases in order to make everything work**  **4 out along state lines.**  **5 Because some compromises are going**  **6 to have to be made in order for this map to**  **7 finally be acceptable to all parties. To make**  **8 it work along state lines you are going to**  **9 have to make compromises. There's just no two**  **10 ways about it. That's my two cents' worth.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Is there -- can**  **12 we make any type of agreement on the U values**  **13 or prescriptive paths without knowing the**  **14 zones? Or is that something that can be**  **15 agreed to independently?**  **16 MR. UNGAR: We could at least get**  **17 notional. I mean, there might be fine**  **18 gradations of how you translate from one set**  **19 of zones to the other. But we could at least**  **20 discuss whether we're basically okay with the**  **21 set of U values for the IECC zone. The**  **22 assumption we'll translate that if we don't.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: So, I have just a**  **2 housekeeping question for everybody. Would it**  **3 be helpful if we kind of took the public**  **4 comment right now and try to finish up? It's**  **5 4 o'clock already.**  **6 Let Matthew go do all the work that**  **7 he needs to do and just send us out PDFs maybe**  **8 like in an hour from now with everything that**  **9 you're asking for.**  **10 And then come back tomorrow morning**  **11 bright and early and restart the discussion?**  **12 I just worry that if we move**  **13 immediately to the new tables that Matthew is**  **14 going to present we're not going to really get**  **15 anywhere in the next hour. But we'd probably**  **16 get a long way if we start going over it**  **17 tomorrow morning.**  **18 Does that sound sort of agreeable to**  **19 everybody?**  **20 MR. LUTER: This is Rob at Lippert.**  **21 Joe, we had some introductory comments this**  **22 morning that kind of chided us on not being** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 further along, about being handed a**  **2 methodology on a silver platter, and concerns**  **3 that we aren't going to get this done in time.**  **4 I'd like to suggest that we perhaps**  **5 move off of this topic and do something else**  **6 so we can be productive for the remaining hour**  **7 of the scheduled meeting time.**  **8 You know, if we're really behind the**  **9 eight ball we don't need to leave early every**  **10 day.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you have a**  **12 suggestion on where to go?**  **13 MR. LUTER: I do not, sir.**  **14 MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo. I**  **15 liked what somebody I heard suggest. Can we**  **16 maybe come to consensus on the prescriptive?**  **17 I mean, we've got Emanuel's page 5**  **18 which breaks it down prescriptive by all of**  **19 the IECC zones. And I realize we can't jump**  **20 to his page 8 where he has it lumped into**  **21 three zones because we don't know our climate**  **22 zones yet.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 But can't we agree on page 5 that **2 that looks like an agreeable prescriptive 3 path? And then figure out tomorrow how we**  **4 want to draw the boundaries. 5 MR. RAMIREZ: Eric?**  **6 MR. LACEY: Other than the SHGC, 7 yes, that's kind of an open question for me.**  **8 Because the glazing SHGC, I mean, from my 9 perspective everything else in there looks**  **10 like a decent compromise. 11 MR. RAMIREZ: How does it look to**  **12 everyone else? Again with the exception of 13 the glazing. Mark?**  **14 MR. EZZO: This is Mark. Go ahead, 15 I'm sorry.**  **16 MR. WEISS: No, let Mark. 17 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Mark.**  **18 MR. EZZO: I was going to say this 19 is a big chunk of work here. And it's a huge**  **20 part of the term paper. 21 And so I think if we can get beyond**  **22 this, or at least get some kind of general**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 tentative consensus on it I think we're going**  **2 to make a whole lot of headway into coming to**  **3 where we need to be.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you want to check**  **5 the level of consensus on this? Setting aside**  **6 the SHGC numbers.**  **7 MR. EZZO: I would, yes.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark?**  **9 MR. WEISS: What's the question?**  **10 What's the consensus on? This is separate**  **11 from cost?**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, that these are**  **13 the prescriptive --**  **14 MR. WEISS: These values.**  **15 MR. UNGAR: The standards would be**  **16 based on these values.**  **17 MR. WEISS: These values. Separated**  **18 from cost. Related to each.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: So, Joe Hagerman.**  **20 Not to interject, but Matthew is done with the**  **21 tables and I think we can go ahead and present**  **22 those if you want to see them.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: We might be able to**  **2 get consensus on some of this stuff over here.**  **3 And that's where we're -- we're just about to**  **4 gauge the level of consensus excluding SHGC on**  **5 the chart here.**  **6 So, let me see a show of thumbs**  **7 excluding SHGC if these numbers are**  **8 acceptable.**  **9 (Show of thumbs)**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: And on the phone are**  **11 there any thumbs down?**  **12 MR. LUBLINER: Yes. Lubliner's**  **13 thumbs down unless you're going to get me my**  **14 climate zones here.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: No, no, I'm sorry.**  **16 We're not -- this is -- so there's two columns**  **17 that need to be excluded then. I apologize.**  **18 The climate zone column and the SHGC. We're**  **19 not trying to lock in the climate zones right**  **20 now.**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: So, just to be clear.**  **22 You're trying to -- you're asking for a vote** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 on what? On the Uo values and the climate**  **2 zones? That column that says --**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: Not the climate zones.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, the -- you're**  **5 asking for the Uo value column right there.**  **6 And that's against the climate zones over**  **7 here.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: We're looking at the**  **9 prescriptive numbers that are --**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: And the prescriptive**  **11 numbers.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: The prescriptive**  **13 numbers that are in there. With the exception**  **14 of SHGC.**  **15 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **16 MR. ROY: -- R38 in subzone not yet**  **17 identified but probably 5, IECC 5.**  **18 MR. WEISS: I mean, I don't know how**  **19 much value it has. I don't think you can**  **20 divorce the values from the cost aspects of**  **21 it. I mean, I'm not going to vote no, but I**  **22 just don't know how much value it has.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: What Matthew has is**  **2 this whole table with the cost data, right?**  **3 And so whether we vote for it here, or we**  **4 switched over and look at his chart real quick**  **5 and vote for it, it'll be voting on the same**  **6 thing, you'll just have a little bit more**  **7 comfort because you can see the cost numbers**  **8 over the 10-year. Which is not LCC, but it's**  **9 the 10-year look.**  **10 MR. WEISS: He's got the LCC too,**  **11 doesn't he?**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, he has LCC too.**  **13 That's the -- what he's hiding right**  **14 now is just the solar heat gain coefficient**  **15 added numbers which turned a few -- obviously**  **16 a few of the climate zones negative because we**  **17 don't take into account the energy impacts.**  **18 MS. DICKENS: This is Ishbel Dickens**  **19 from NMHOA What does the column "Down Payment**  **20 and Fees" refer to?**  **21 MR. WALKER: So, the down payment**  **22 and fees refers to the 20 percent down payment** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 on a mobile home -- or on the manufactured**  **2 house. And the financing data associated with**  **3 establishing that loan which I think are**  **4 assumed at 1 percent.**  **5 MS. DICKENS: Okay, will this take**  **6 into account whether it's a chattel loan or**  **7 ARM mortgage?**  **8 MR. WALKER: That is correct because**  **9 the down payment on both of those types is 20**  **10 percent and the fees are assumed to be the**  **11 same.**  **12 MR. ROY: What does column AK refer**  **13 to?**  **14 MR. WALKER: Column AK is the total**  **15 cost of purchasing this home over the 10-year**  **16 period. So, it's the down payment and fees**  **17 plus 10 years of mortgage payments discounted**  **18 to the future including the residual resale**  **19 value that you get when you sell the home on**  **20 the 10th year.**  **21 MR. UNGAR: So for lifecycle cost**  **22 would be column AK plus either KI or AJ,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 whichever way you're doing it.**  **2 MR. WALKER: Right.**  **3 MR. UNGAR: I'm sorry, your 10-year**  **4 costs. So it would be the 10-year cost, this**  **5 10-year total "lifecycle" would be AI plus AK.**  **6 Is that?**  **7 No, that's obviously not true. No,**  **8 AI must be the total lifecycle number.**  **9 MR. WALKER: Sorry. So it already**  **10 includes AK.**  **11 MR. ROY: This is Robin. When you**  **12 asked for the home cost.**  **13 MR. WALKER: I don't remember**  **14 exactly.**  **15 MR. ROY: I really meant just the**  **16 purchase price. The incremental purchase**  **17 price, not the total cost of putting energy**  **18 plus buying the home over 10 years.**  **19 Is that the purchase price increase?**  **20 MR. WALKER: Do you want me to just**  **21 give you that number too?**  **22 MR. ROY: It's not helpful. I want** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to know how much they pay, not how much they**  **2 save after 10 years.**  **3 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: I think he just wants**  **5 the up-front cost.**  **6 MR. ROY: How much more are we**  **7 asking somebody to pay right now.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Ten-year cost of**  **9 ownership, 30-year.**  **10 MR. WALKER: So year zero is down**  **11 payment and fees is what they have to put down**  **12 on the table.**  **13 I'm going to pull out the total**  **14 incremental cost of those energy efficiency**  **15 components.**  **16 MR. UNGAR: The down payment and**  **17 fees you said was a total of 21 percent of the**  **18 initial cost. So, multiply it by four point**  **19 something, you'll get the total incremental**  **20 cost.**  **21 MR. WALKER: I'll try not to make**  **22 any assumptions. There's enough space for** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that. So this is total incremental heating**  **2 cost.**  **3 Let me just make sure that I pulled**  **4 off the single section price. I did, okay.**  **5 MR. ROY: So that's the part that**  **6 we're asking somebody to swallow in order to**  **7 get some savings.**  **8 For example, in Miami, we're asking**  **9 somebody in Miami just spend $2,300 more up**  **10 front, however they finance it, and after 10**  **11 years they would have recovered all but $51 of**  **12 it. They'd be negative by $51.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: That's correct, but**  **14 we haven't factored in the reduction credit to**  **15 sizing. So let's just keep that in mind.**  **16 MR. EZZO: That's right. They would**  **17 save about $500 on the air conditioner size.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. They'd save**  **19 some money.**  **20 MR. EZZO: An order of magnitude**  **21 more than the $51 savings. Deficit.**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Lubliner. I had one other comment I'd like to**  **2 make.**  **3 And that's we had noted that a large**  **4 percentage of people buy with cash. And I**  **5 don't see -- I know that Stacy's group was**  **6 going to look into that. But I don't see any**  **7 attempt here to factor in cash purchases into**  **8 this analysis.**  **9 So, I think that because the cash**  **10 purchases aren't factored in, and because**  **11 we're not taking credit for the downsized**  **12 heating equipment as a result of the higher**  **13 efficiency measures that we're looking real**  **14 good.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark, you had a**  **16 question?**  **17 MR. WEISS: Yes, the EEM cost they**  **18 just put up, that's based on the information**  **19 that Emanuel came up with?**  **20 MR. WALKER: Correct.**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: If you remember our**  **22 previous conversation there were some measures** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 in that package that we thought that the**  **2 number was conservative, right? Like the air**  **3 ceiling, the duct ceilings. We didn't change**  **4 those numbers. So there was -- we took the**  **5 higher of those numbers. I think that's**  **6 pretty conservative.**  **7 MR. LUBLINER: I thought we agreed**  **8 to get rid of the duct ceiling costs. They're**  **9 still in there is what you're saying, Joe?**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: I believe they're**  **11 still in there. Yes, they're still in there.**  **12 So these costs are conservative.**  **13 MR. LUBLINER: So, there's duct**  **14 ceiling costs as well which make it even more**  **15 conservative. And then we value engineer the**  **16 testing for the envelope out of this.**  **17 I mean, I don't know, we've bent**  **18 over backwards to make all these first-cost**  **19 adjustments. And I'm concerned that the**  **20 consumer who has cash that wants to buy a home**  **21 off a lot is not getting the full benefit of**  **22 this exercise.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: Mark, you had a**  **2 question?**  **3 MR. WEISS: A comment. And**  **4 actually, as I indicated last week I think**  **5 there are at least two reasons why the first**  **6 cost might be underestimated.**  **7 And that is because particularly**  **8 smaller manufacturers purchasing supplies in**  **9 smaller volume, they're not going to get the**  **10 level of discounts and considerations that**  **11 larger manufacturers would.**  **12 Also, as I mentioned last time this**  **13 number necessarily reflects only cost labor**  **14 and retail market. It does not reflect**  **15 enforcement and testing cost, regulatory**  **16 compliance costs that are also part of the**  **17 overall impact on the consumer.**  **18 So, therefore I think that the**  **19 numbers are probably understated to some**  **20 degree.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other questions or**  **22 comments on this?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner**  **2 one more time. I'm sorry.**  **3 I do also believe that you're able**  **4 to achieve an R38 in the ceiling without the**  **5 cost that Emanuel's put in for higher trusses.**  **6 And so again, the adjustments that**  **7 Emanuel made to the ceiling were based on**  **8 costs that I'm having some issues thinking**  **9 that this is probably not a cost that's going**  **10 to be incurred very often. Maybe for a few**  **11 designs, but very often it's not going to be**  **12 incurred. And it's driving everything.**  **13 I'm more than open to exploring a**  **14 dual Uo value or something for single-section**  **15 homes to deal with affordability.**  **16 I'll make the case that if somebody**  **17 can afford a multi-section home and they can**  **18 afford the setup, the additional thousands of**  **19 dollars in setup of the multi-section home,**  **20 that maybe they are not that type of consumer.**  **21 And that really maybe we should be**  **22 working on -- if we try to give something,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 maybe it's the single-section homes where we**  **2 can give a little.**  **3 But everything that Mark says is**  **4 right. There's things that we haven't**  **5 considered on the other side.**  **6 I'm just worried about the things**  **7 that I think aren't being considered. And I'm**  **8 going to continue to point them out. That's**  **9 why I have some discomfort.**  **10 I do think that the lifecycle cost**  **11 analysis here is really positive for**  **12 everything. And I think it would be whether**  **13 we used the IECC or Emanuel's modification of**  **14 the IECC. Thank you.**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: So just one other**  **16 statement on the cost.**  **17 MR. WADE: This is Michael Wade.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Michael Wade, you go**  **19 first.**  **20 MR. WADE: Thank you, Joe. I've got**  **21 a question for Lubliner.**  **22 On the $500 that you're talking** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 about for tonnage, are you talking about on a**  **2 heat pump or are you talking about an air**  **3 conditioning system?**  **4 MR. LUBLINER: Heat pump and an air**  **5 conditioner are virtually the same thing, just**  **6 a reversing valve.**  **7 MR. WADE: That's correct.**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: So, basically, Mike,**  **9 what I'm thinking is probably if you look at**  **10 those sizing tables that will be these data**  **11 for your industry, the little cards that show**  **12 sizing.**  **13 MR. WADE: Correct.**  **14 MR. LUBLINER: And you go down those**  **15 tables, I think it gives you a half a ton**  **16 credit for low-E windows, right?**  **17 MR. WADE: I believe you're correct.**  **18 MR. LUBLINER: And then I'm saying**  **19 that with all the other measures that you're**  **20 improving on the home, the insulation and --**  **21 that you're going to end up with something**  **22 higher than that.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So I would suspect it's at least at**  **2 a minimum a half a ton of credits which is**  **3 probably $400 if you did some sort of a means**  **4 calculation, or you talked to people, HVAC**  **5 guys.**  **6 And then there's going to maybe be**  **7 another half a ton on the other. So we're**  **8 talking about -- when I talked to the HVAC**  **9 guy, he said boy, you're sizing these things**  **10 at thousands -- at 500 per and it should be**  **11 1,000. So in other words, we're over-sizing**  **12 them now but we're not getting credit for it.**  **13 And I don't worry about doing it**  **14 now. But I do think it's legitimate that if**  **15 somebody is buying this efficient home, their**  **16 heating contractor is going to -- if they do**  **17 size it correctly and we get the sizing right**  **18 it's going to save a half a ton to a ton.**  **19 And that's a cost that I think is**  **20 real and should be considered. I know that**  **21 when we do the Building America program, it's**  **22 gospel. You reduce the shell and that affords** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you the ability to pay for more conservation.**  **2 And that's what the client wants,**  **3 it's the package. They don't care about the**  **4 individual things.**  **5 Ignoring the HVAC savings, and I**  **6 would like to see the analysis done with at**  **7 least $400 of HVAC savings --**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: So, just real quick,**  **9 just so we can move along a little bit. I**  **10 think all we need to see is $51, right, to**  **11 make the one red positive.**  **12 So, again, Mike, I sort of agree**  **13 with you but I think we're really, really**  **14 close here with everybody.**  **15 Let me just say one thing about**  **16 Mark. Mark did bring up a good question about**  **17 the cost.**  **18 And when we took receipt of the cost**  **19 Mark asked Navigant just to do some quick spot**  **20 checks with publicly available data so they**  **21 pulled up the RSMeans. And we compared the**  **22 costs that were submitted in some areas -- not** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 across the whole table, but just some random **2 areas -- to retail costs that are published 3 annually by the RSMeans company. Is that a**  **4 company, I guess? Whoever RSMeans is. 5 And the numbers that were reported**  **6 were consistently 15 to 20 percent lower in 7 all the categories that we pulled from from**  **8 the retail costs. 9 So, we felt pretty comfortable that**  **10 it represents an average of the industry. We 11 didn't see anything kind of glaring there.**  **12 Now, if it came back half retail or 13 even more than that, then I think we would**  **14 have some problems. Or if it came back more 15 than retail. So we feel like that's a good**  **16 kind of average of the whole industry. 17 But if your members, if your small**  **18 manufacturers can provide us cost data, or 19 review the cost data that was submitted we'd**  **20 be happy to hear from them. 21 So, I guess the question is now, I**  **22 mean now that we have this data up here, can**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we kind of do a vote on the Uo values and the**  **2 climate zones that are presented here? Which**  **3 I think are similar to the ones that are on**  **4 page 5.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: They are, aren't they?**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: They should be.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Page 5 averages them.**  **9 So the page 5 only has basically seven zones**  **10 and here there's a lot more zones. Because we**  **11 go to 1A, 2A, 2B, 3A, 3B, 3C. So there's**  **12 obviously, there's some averaging here.**  **13 MR. WALKER: They're somewhat**  **14 different numbers. Let me speak to that. The**  **15 Uo values that are here on the table on the**  **16 screen are what PNNL calculated based on the**  **17 runs they did.**  **18 It does seem to diverge by a few**  **19 decimal places from what Emanuel had**  **20 calculated.**  **21 MR. ROY: I'm looking at -- the**  **22 single? The single for IECC 5, 0.059. What** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 happened? That's an 8 percent difference**  **2 maybe? 0.063 to 0.059.**  **3 MR. WALKER: And 6 is the same.**  **4 MR. ROY: They seem really**  **5 different.**  **6 MR. WALKER: Yes. Zone 6 is the**  **7 same as 5 for Emanuel's calculation.**  **8 MR. UNGAR: Is this -- are these**  **9 supposed to be for revision 2?**  **10 MR. WALKER: These are for revision**  **11 2. I mean, some of the differences, it's a**  **12 little bit hard for me to estimate but it**  **13 could be different assumptions in framing, or**  **14 door U values.**  **15 I mean, one thing I can do here is I**  **16 can plug in the numbers that Emanuel put**  **17 together. I think we could -- and then I'll**  **18 figure out why there are differences. And**  **19 we'll have to talk to Emanuel also.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: We're just looking at**  **21 the raw data. We're looking at the same raw**  **22 data. So we don't understand the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 discrepancies either.**  **2 MR. WALKER: And I'm looking --**  **3 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **4 MR. ROY: -- manufacturers just have**  **5 a sense of why it seems to have such different**  **6 U values which is -- but I understand what**  **7 you've got here. This is all readable when**  **8 it's all broken out. Because this I get.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: So, you're going to**  **10 speak to Emanuel and reconcile figures?**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: It's just a**  **12 different. Like zone 4 is different here.**  **13 It's more aggressive on that sheet. Salem is**  **14 0.0063. Here it's 0.0067. There seems to be**  **15 some discrepancies.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Could it be that**  **17 they're in different areas of the zones and**  **18 maybe fuel costs? Could it be things like**  **19 that?**  **20 MR. EZZO: There's an IECC exception**  **21 in marine climates for zone 5 and 4 that might**  **22 be the problem. There's a 5 except marine and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 then there's a -- so that might be where the**  **2 discrepancy is. It gets back to the map.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Emanuel, do you have**  **4 any ideas?**  **5 MR. LEVY: I'd just be guessing. It**  **6 could be the windows because we assumed a**  **7 fairly constant U value for the window. I'm**  **8 not sure what PNNL did.**  **9 But I'm just guessing. It won't**  **10 take that long to figure out the difference.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: So, it sounds like we**  **12 need to know what those differences are before**  **13 we actually pull the trigger on it.**  **14 And is that something that we could**  **15 have for tomorrow morning?**  **16 MR. WALKER: We'll initiate the**  **17 question. There's potential.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: We're cautiously**  **19 optimistic that there will be an answer**  **20 tomorrow morning.**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: I did get an answer** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 about the Manual J, which we can cover that in**  **2 a second. But let's finish this up first.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, what else do we**  **4 need to know on this thing?**  **5 MR. WALKER: There is the SHGC item**  **6 that Eric had asked about. Are we ready to**  **7 look at that?**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Sure.**  **9 MR. WALKER: Okay.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Unless we're going to**  **11 have -- I don't know if we're going to have**  **12 costing numbers on that.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, we have cost**  **14 numbers of energy impact numbers. But you can**  **15 see the costing numbers.**  **16 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **17 Lubliner. So am I clear in understanding that**  **18 we are not going to be looking at cash**  **19 purchases as part of the analysis, nor are we**  **20 going to be looking at the savings from the**  **21 downsizing of the HVAC system analysis?**  **22 Nor are we going to be looking at** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 30-year cost of home ownership, just the**  **2 10-year that we're going to be looking at.**  **3 Am I correct that we're not going to**  **4 look at any of these variables?**  **5 MR. UNGAR: All right. So, for -- I**  **6 mean it looks a little bit -- for cash I think**  **7 it makes very little difference unless you**  **8 assume depending on what discount rate you**  **9 assume.**  **10 Right now the discount rate is**  **11 assumed to be the same as the interest rate.**  **12 And so cash if you take a blended value of the**  **13 discount rates will look very similar to these**  **14 analyses.**  **15 Three-year we have so people can**  **16 look at it. And downsizing is not included.**  **17 And again, people it seems to me -- I mean,**  **18 we're told that it's some hundreds of dollars**  **19 that should be for downsizing that will**  **20 adjust. I guess it's a question of which**  **21 zones it would apply to.**  **22 But again it's not clear. I haven't** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 heard anybody say that their vote yet up or**  **2 down on the standard depends on the LCC**  **3 analysis.**  **4 If that $51 makes a difference we**  **5 could discuss all these factors. But it's not**  **6 clear to me whether it does.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: I mean that -- I don't**  **8 know if it -- I don't see how it really would,**  **9 right? I mean, if everything but the one is**  **10 in the black, and knowing that there is give**  **11 or take a little bit here on these numbers, is**  **12 that a big enough discrepancy that's going to**  **13 derail this?**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: That's the point why**  **15 I wanted to go ahead and factor in the cost of**  **16 the solar heat gain coefficients. Is because**  **17 the zones that are already in the black,**  **18 they're going to stay in the black. And the**  **19 zone that's in the red is just going to stay**  **20 in the red, right?**  **21 But in the best professional**  **22 judgment the one zone that would benefit the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 most from it would be the zone that's in the**  **2 red. So you would assume the savings. So you**  **3 can assume that you're going to get some**  **4 return on that money.**  **5 And then take in addition the sizing**  **6 credit that's not factored in here. You know,**  **7 in my professional judgment that's going to**  **8 turn to black. I think that's a reasonable**  **9 assumption to make, right?**  **10 But there's other engineers in the**  **11 room. They could speak to that too.**  **12 MR. LUBLINER: I agree with Joe.**  **13 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, who was**  **14 that?**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: That's Lubliner,**  **16 Michael Lubliner.**  **17 MR. LUBLINER: I believe that Joe is**  **18 right, it's a reasonable engineering**  **19 assumption to make.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Lowell?**  **21 MR. UNGAR: This is Lowell. And the**  **22 other one that would make a difference is if** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Mike is right that you can get R38 insulation**  **2 without changing the truss, that would mean**  **3 that for those -- particularly in zone 4 where**  **4 the ceiling insulation was dialed back**  **5 actually below IECC 2006 levels that there**  **6 would be no reason, you know, you wouldn't**  **7 need to -- you would no longer justify pushing**  **8 that back.**  **9 I don't know whether that's -- this**  **10 is a technical question. I don't know whether**  **11 there's an easy way of resolving it or not.**  **12 But it may, you know, I guess I can**  **13 live probably with it if we're really talking**  **14 about the ceiling insulation in one zone. But**  **15 it is tough to swallow.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, let's remember**  **17 though that the reduction in the insulation**  **18 had a very minimal impact on the annual energy**  **19 consumption, but a huge impact on the cost,**  **20 right? So it was more of a cost increase than**  **21 any energy impact.**  **22 MR. UNGAR: Yes, because if Mike is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 right then you wouldn't have a large -- it**  **2 would be a small cost increase rather than --**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: But you'd still have**  **4 small energy impact. So it's like, you know,**  **5 is it worth it, right?**  **6 MR. UNGAR: Yes. You know.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: I think if anything**  **8 the flip side of saying that is you could say,**  **9 well, the costs are maybe overstated for the**  **10 roof insulation, right?**  **11 So, again, the numbers that are**  **12 black here, you'd believe that you'd be a**  **13 little bit more positive in the black.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get Lois and**  **15 David.**  **16 MS. STARKEY: I just -- on the roof**  **17 truss issue. I just think we need to take**  **18 sort of, you know, we did a lot of work to get**  **19 some real data and some real numbers from at**  **20 least a few manufacturers. And I think we**  **21 should take that.**  **22 I mean, we're not looking at** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 theoreticals. We're not looking at, well,**  **2 this is what a couple of manufacturers in the**  **3 Northwest do.**  **4 I mean, I just -- I think we need to**  **5 stick with the assumptions about what you need**  **6 to do to put R38 in the ceiling.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: Agreed. And when you**  **8 do look at -- everything is black when we do,**  **9 right?**  **10 MS. STARKEY: Yes. Exactly.**  **11 MR. TOMPOS: My comment was along**  **12 the same lines. I mean, we're assuming**  **13 everybody is using a 5.5 inch truss heel. We**  **14 still have manufacturers using a 3.5 inch**  **15 truss heel. So there is going to be some**  **16 change to those trusses.**  **17 MR. LUBLINER: A good thing to have,**  **18 right?**  **19 MR. TOMPOS: No, it could also be**  **20 for the 4 inch.**  **21 MR. LUBLINER: Not for the --**  **22 MR. UNGAR: The baseline here is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 2.5.**  **2 MR. LUBLINER: This is my**  **3 understanding and then I'll shut up. The**  **4 majority of the trusses in the United States**  **5 have a 5.5 inch heel. Technically, if you**  **6 have a 5.5 inch heel you can get R38 without**  **7 changing the truss. Am I wrong on those two**  **8 assertions?**  **9 MR. EZZO: Yes, you are.**  **10 (Laughter)**  **11 MR. MENDLEN: We don't have specific**  **12 data about various trusses. I think that that**  **13 would be an NTA, a larger step, actually.**  **14 But there's a variety of truss size**  **15 that go from probably a 2.5 inch heel up to**  **16 7.5 inch. What the average is I couldn't tell**  **17 you.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: So just real quick, I**  **19 don't think it really changes the numbers**  **20 though. I mean the numbers are the numbers.**  **21 They're still going to be positive, right?**  **22 MR. TOMPOS: That was my point. I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 don't know why we're arguing a whole side of**  **2 this. Let's forget about the trusses.**  **3 MR. GALLAGHER: In terms of time**  **4 it's almost, what is it, 4:30. I think we**  **5 have a public comment period.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, let's just go**  **7 ahead and tee up what we're going to see**  **8 tomorrow.**  **9 I think we're close to getting a**  **10 vote on this if we just can double-check the**  **11 U values to make sure there's not some**  **12 translation issues. And so we can hopefully**  **13 get that settled between now and tomorrow**  **14 morning.**  **15 So hopefully we can show you the**  **16 same chart tomorrow morning first thing with**  **17 the updated Uo values. And then I'd hope that**  **18 we could take a vote on it. Is that?**  **19 MS. STARKEY: On the prescriptive**  **20 path.**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: On the performance**  **22 path. Uo.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: And we might even have**  **2 the SHGC numbers in there, correct?**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: We're not going to**  **4 have the energy runs by tomorrow.**  **5 MR. TOMPOS: Were the U values the**  **6 ones that matched?**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: That's what we have**  **8 to understand. We have to understand why**  **9 there's a discrepancy.**  **10 MS. HOFFMAN: They're going to**  **11 reconcile that. So maps tomorrow?**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. And then**  **13 we'll hopefully get maps tomorrow. Matthew's**  **14 going to have a busy night.**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so then we'll do**  **17 that. And then we'll see if there's any**  **18 additional committee reports.**  **19 And we won't be able to take action**  **20 on the climate zones because we're going to**  **21 have -- you need some time to talk to your**  **22 clients on that, right?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LACEY: One more issue to throw**  **2 out there. Brace yourselves. We're talking**  **3 about two compliance options - a prescriptive**  **4 path and a Uo performance path.**  **5 Do we want to explore a simplified,**  **6 like a Ua path that we'd plug into REScheck?**  **7 Or are we just going to allow the Uo**  **8 to kind of be the starting assumptions for a**  **9 Ua calculation? Does that make sense?**  **10 A prescriptive path in the IECC has**  **11 very limited, you know, tradeoff capabilities.**  **12 Now, if you set your prescriptive**  **13 levels someplace that everybody can agree on**  **14 then that's fine.**  **15 But if you wanted a little more**  **16 flexibility here and there without doing a**  **17 full-blown performance path there are some**  **18 means of trading those off.**  **19 We don't have to decide right now.**  **20 I just thought I would put it out there.**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Put it out on the**  **22 table.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LACEY: Yes, think about it over**  **2 night. If you want another compliance option**  **3 -- we already had that discussion earlier. We**  **4 were only talking about the two.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: We have that on there**  **6 for compliance.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: And would you be ready**  **8 to address it in greater detail?**  **9 MR. LACEY: Yes. I don't know if we**  **10 need one, I just wanted to throw that out.**  **11 MS. HOFFMAN: Just so everyone knows.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's also tomorrow,**  **13 let's go through the list of the other items**  **14 that the group wants to present to ASRAC.**  **15 It's outside the term sheets. Because I'm**  **16 afraid that we're going to lose some of those.**  **17 And if memory serves me, the most**  **18 important one to the group is the continuing**  **19 this committee hopefully in the New Year,**  **20 hopefully not two weeks from now, to discuss**  **21 compliance and enforcement, right? Because I**  **22 think you want that recommendation.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And we've heard a couple of times**  **2 people saying that they used the REScheck.**  **3 And so if there's a recommendation that the**  **4 Department needs to modify REScheck to make it**  **5 easier for the manufactured housing or to**  **6 address manufactured housing we'd be happy to**  **7 put that in for a recommendation too.**  **8 So whatever you can think about that**  **9 needs to go in those recommendations we should**  **10 at least start capturing those because they**  **11 need to be part of the term sheet, or an**  **12 appendix to the term sheet.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Tomorrow we'll also**  **14 talk about logistics for the next meeting**  **15 because it's not for a year. It will be in**  **16 Colorado.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: If we need it, right?**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: If we need it, right.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: So far it sounds like**  **20 we're going to need it because you're not**  **21 going to have consensus on the climate zones.**  **22 MR. LUTER: For those of us that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 already have tickets let's hope we need it.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: Well Rob, if we left**  **3 out earlier we would definitely need it.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, Rob.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: I'm teasing.**  **6 MR. LUTER: My bad.**  **7 (Laughter)**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Public comment.**  **9 MR. MENDLEN: I'll make a comment.**  **10 The first one is, Joe, I would caution you to**  **11 remove natural infiltration from the**  **12 evaluations that Dave's committees got to deal**  **13 with on fan efficacy and ventilation.**  **14 Simply because there are variations**  **15 between when you test a factory versus when**  **16 you test a site because the home has been**  **17 transported and some of the stiffness has come**  **18 out of the unit when it's -- and you go**  **19 through the setup process also that removes**  **20 additional stiffness.**  **21 So there really -- in all the**  **22 different conditions that you have to test in** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to make sure that you've got proper**  **2 assumptions for natural air infiltration.**  **3 So my suggestion to you if you**  **4 really want to get through this by the 23rd or**  **5 24th is to remove that part, give Dave a break**  **6 and his committee a break and just have them**  **7 focus on the fan efficacy.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: I've got high hopes**  **9 for David's group to solve it all. So we**  **10 won't have to solve it.**  **11 MR. MENDLEN: Because I think if you**  **12 wait for that you'll miss your deadline.**  **13 I guess I can echo what several**  **14 others have said today also about needing to**  **15 balance cost-effectiveness with the energy**  **16 improvements versus affordability.**  **17 We have to obviously under our**  **18 statute deal primarily with affordability as**  **19 well as balancing that against all the various**  **20 safety, durability and quality issues that go**  **21 along with our statute as well.**  **22 So I just remind you that that's** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 going to be important when it gets to HUD**  **2 eventually.**  **3 And then again I've made this**  **4 statement. Now Rob's finally here so I can**  **5 make it to him.**  **6 By uniformity, you've heard that**  **7 before today as well. If you decide to go**  **8 single-wide, multiple-wide, don't have two**  **9 levels because it's going to complicate**  **10 enforcement dramatically.**  **11 You've already heard that adding**  **12 just one level for each of the three zones, or**  **13 for four zones, or how many zones you work out**  **14 of is better and will avoid I think**  **15 significant enforcement problems in the**  **16 future. That's my comment for today. Thank**  **17 you.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Any other**  **19 workgroup comments?**  **20 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.**  **21 I just had a quick question. Are you speaking**  **22 as HUD or are you speaking as an individual?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. MENDLEN: On that last point, on**  **2 enforcement I'm speaking for HUD.**  **3 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you.**  **4 MR. MENDLEN: And I'm also -- I**  **5 think I'm speaking for all those individuals.**  **6 I'm not here as an individual. I'm here**  **7 representing HUD.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Then we'll see you all**  **9 tomorrow at 9 o'clock.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Same place tomorrow.**  **11 I appreciate all your all's hard work and your**  **12 time and your comments. This has been very**  **13 helpful, this whole endeavor and I think that**  **14 I feel like we're really close.**  **15 I look up at that chart and even**  **16 when we factor in the stuff that we can't**  **17 really account for a lot of it's black, or**  **18 most of it's black.**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, well have a good**  **20 evening, really. See you tomorrow.**  **21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **22 matter went off the record at 4:36 p.m.)** 202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 366** A $1.39 82:7 $10 81:16 82:8

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38:5 34 181:15,19 38 135:15,19 145:7 145:11,14 169:8 169:11,17 170:6 171:10,14,15 172:19 177:4 181:4,15,20,20 185:2 191:2,16,20 192:10,12 193:20 195:12 197:4 239:14 256:12 259:7 3A 345:11 3B 345:11 3C 345:11 4 4 3:3 145:12 147:10 147:12,21 148:4 148:15,22 164:2 164:14,14 166:5 169:4 170:4 171:11 188:6,7,8 227:18,21 242:1 270:10 278:7 280:20 282:8,9 283:1 284:13 290:15 291:18 295:10,13 296:2 303:4,18 316:6,13 316:21 319:1,7,11 319:12 320:9,9202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 410** 325:5 347:12,21 353:3 355:20 4.824:21 4:30 357:4 4:36 365:22 40 323:15 402.1.1 145:1 402.4.1.1 16:1 402.4.474:20,22

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76:18 77:18,19 78:5 104:22 112:11 403.6.1 78:5 79:2 110:20 403.7 104:22 110:14 112:14,15 48 165:7 49 145:8,13 4A 227:16 236:20 4B 236:20 5 5 147:22 164:2,14 164:14 166:6 172:21 188:6 228:3 239:7 241:4 241:10 242:2 278:2,8,21 279:2 279:7,16 280:9,20 281:19 282:9,22 283:2 284:10,14 284:19 287:7,12 288:4 290:16 291:18 295:11 296:3 316:6,14,19 316:19 317:10 319:1,7,13,16 326:17 327:1 330:17,17 345:4,8 345:9,22 346:7 347:21,22 5.5 197:4,19,21 355:13 356:5,6 5.5-inch 196:7 50 83:16 98:17 105:16 266:11,15 266:19 304:7,8 500 115:7,8 125:3

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209:3 60.22 84:19,21 94:1

99:7 107:22,22 6097 1:10 62.2 111:5 66215:18 68257:18 6A 227:16 236:20 6B 220:16 236:20 7 7 3:7 148:5 162:6,9 162:15 163:5 164:2,5,5,14 165:20 166:5 168:7 172:21 242:2 277:17 278:8 280:20 283:3 284:15,16 285:1 288:13 290:15 291:18 295:12 296:3 302:8 316:6,15,19 316:20,22 317:10 319:7,13,16 7.5 196:16 356:16 7/8 148:5 70253:19 257:18 70s 115:14 8 8 3:8 145:12 163:6

164:5,14 165:21 166:5 199:4 237:15,19 239:17 242:3 278:9,11 279:1 280:20 283:3 284:15,16 284:18 288:13 290:15 291:18 295:12,20 296:3 302:9 316:6,15,20 317:10 319:7,13 326:20 346:1 80 194:1 253:19 85 12:6 892230:12 9NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 411

Manufactured Housing Work Group

US DOE

10-01-14

Washington, DC