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U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

PUBLIC HEARING:

Carbon Pollution Standard for New Power Plants

8:44 a.m. through 4:40 p.m.

Thursday, May 24, 2012

Environmental Protection Agency

Ariel Rios East Building

1201 Constitution Avenue

Washington, D.C. 20460
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EPA PANEL:

Reid Harvey, Chief, Climate Economics Branch,

 Office of Atmospheric Programs

Joseph Goffman, Senior Counsel,

 Office of Air and Radiation

Jim Ketcham-Colwill,

 Office of Air and Radiation

Scott Jordan,

 Office of Air and Radiation
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C O N T E N T S

 Page

Public Comments:

Carol Whitman, National Rural Electric

 Cooperative Association......................10

Jennifer Kefer, Alliance for Industrial

 Efficiency...................................17

Sharon Steele, Vice Mayor,

 St. Paul, Virginia...........................24

Akili West, Resident, Ward 8, Washington, D.C..27

Jim Hunter, Director, Utility Department,

 International Brotherhood of Electrical

 Workers......................................32

Jonathan Morgenstein, Operation Free...........37

Rob Talley, Tri-State Generation and

 Transmission Association.....................41

Keith Ware, Principal, GLI, LLC................45

Kalin Williams, Earth's Visible Energy.........51

Christer Watson, Associate Professor of

 Physics, Manchester College..................53

Jalonne White-Newsome, Union of Concerned

 Scientists...................................55

Brenda Afzal, Alliance of Nurses for

 Healthy Environments.........................61

Katie Huffling, American College for

 Nurse-Midwives...............................69

Andre Sauvageot, Interstate Travel Company.....73

Jackie Ward, Resident, Ward 8,

 Washington, D.C..............................80

Kristin Cook, Resident of Maryland.............81

Tyler Pidgeon, Student,

 St. Lawrence University......................85

Herschel Pecker, National Wildlife Federation..88

Mitchell Stout.................................92

Michael Greenberg, Senior, Charles E. Smith

 Day School; and Founder, Tar Sands Students..93

Bill Cunningham, Unions for Jobs in the

 Environment..................................98

Kari Fulton, Interim Director, Environmental

 Justice and Climate Change Initiative.......103

Tanya Roland..................................107
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C O N T E N T S (continued)

 Page

Public Comments: (continued)

Ellis W. James, Norfolk Environmental

 Commissioner................................112

Joe Cook, Chesapeake Bay Clean Air Group......117

Steve Segal, Electric Reliability

 Coordinating Council........................122

Steve Heinitz, Resident of Mechanicsville,

 Virginia....................................130

Daniel Lashof, Director,Climate and Clean Air

 Program, National Resources Defense Council.133

Margaret Bowker, Resident of Alexandria,

 Virginia....................................138

Peter Altman, Climate Campaign Director,

 Natural Resources Defense Council..........143

Derek Meyer...................................148

Ertle Mitchell................................150

Pete Roquemore, Union of Concerned Scientists.153

Phillip Collins, Esq., D.C. Environment

 Meetup Group and Sierra Club................159

Paul Ryder, Vienna, Virginia..................163

Amanda Formica, SustainUS.....................166

David Redding, Virginia Organizing............171

Henry Ickes, Arlington, Virginia..............174

Richard Whiteford, Climate Reality Project....177

Alexa Manning.................................179

Jay Butera, One Million Calls for

 Clean Energy................................186

Charlotte Leeks, Pennsauken, New Jersey.......191

Elaine Pirozzi, Moms Rising...................194

Marianne Hilgert, Moms Rising.................197

Gary Ewart, Director, Government Relations,

 American Thoracic Society...................204

Mike Sandler..................................208

Myra Blake, Esq., Southern Environmental Law

 Center, representing the Fall-line Alliance for a Clean Environment, the Ogeechee

 Riverkeeper, and the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy................................213
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C O N T E N T S (continued)

 Page

Public Comments: (continued)

Dawud Ummah, Farmer from Maine................220

Rita Kantarowski, Boston, Massachusetts.......224

Sheila Brown, Georgia State Conference, NAACP.230

Elbridge James, Maryland NAACP................236

Sarah Saylor, Earthjustice....................242

Roger Diedrich................................247

Arretta Keefer................................249

Whitney Byrd, Wise Energy for Virginia........257

Joe Elcox, National Wildlife Federation,

 Dedham, Massachusetts.......................263

Susan Edwards, Volunteer, Sierra Club.........267

Myrene O'Connor...............................271

Janet Fishman, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.....275

John Comella, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania......277

Brian Crenshaw................................279

William Kramer, Sierra Club...................283

Briana Liu, Rockville, Maryland...............286

Susan Davis...................................293

Jennie Gosche, Photographer, Kensington,

 Maryland....................................295

Don Halbert...................................301

George Edwards................................306

Curtis Atkinson, NAACP........................310

Deborah McKinney, Ward 7, Washington,D.C......316

Steve Harvey, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania......318

Royal Mayo, Ohio State Conference of NAACP....321

Doug Peters, Operation Free Veterans..........327

Jennifer Janssen, Great Lakes Regional Center,

 National Wildlife Federation................334

Sarah Meservey, Arlington, Virginia...........338

Susana Hildebrand, Chief Engineer, Texas

 Commission on Environmental Quality.........344

Erin O'Sullivan, Moms Clean Air Force.........352

Melinda Erdberg, Sierra Club of Alexandria,

 Virginia....................................357

Leslie Fields, Sierra Club of

 Washington D.C..............................360
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. HARVEY: Good morning. Thank you for 

3 attending this public hearing. My name is Reid 

4 Harvey. I am the chief of the Economics Branch 

5 in EPA's Office of Atmospheric Programs. I will 

6 be chairing the hearing today.

7 Joining me on the panel are Joe Goffman, 

8 senior counsel in EPA's Office of Air and 

9 Radiation, and Jim Ketcham-Colwill, also with 

10 EPA's Office and Air and Radiation. All three of 

11 us are here in Washington, D.C.

12 We are here today to listen to your 

13 comments on EPA's proposed carbon pollution 

14 standard for new power plants. EPA published a 

15 proposed standard in the Federal Register on 

16 April 13, 2012. This common-sense step under the 

17 Clean Air Act would for the first time set 

18 national limits on the amount of carbon pollution 

19 power plants built in the future can emit.

20 For future power plants, EPA is proposing 

21 to set an output-based standard of 1,000 pounds 

22 of CO2 per megawatt hour. The agency's proposal 
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1 does not apply to existing units or to planned 

2 units that have already received permits and 

3 break ground within the next 12 months.

4 EPA's proposed standard reflects the 

5 ongoing trend in the power sector to build 

6 cleaner plants that take advantage of 

7 American-made technologies. The proposal is 

8 flexible and would help minimize carbon pollution 

9 through deployment of the same types of modern 

10 technologies that power companies are already 

11 using to built the next generation of power 

12 plants. EPA's proposal would ensure that this 

13 progress towards a cleaner, safer, and more 

14 modern power sector continues.

15 Today, we will be accepting oral comments 

16 on all aspects of our proposal, and we will 

17 prepare a written transcript of the hearing. The 

18 transcript will be available as part of the 

19 official record for this rule. We are also 

20 accepting written comments on the proposed rule 

21 until June 25, 2012.

22 At the registration area, which is in the 
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1 hallway out there, there are handouts with 

2 detailed information for submitting written 

3 comments by mail, fax, or electronically. EPA 

4 will consider your comments as we move forward to 

5 complete a final rule.

6 Now let me describe the procedures we 

7 will use for today's hearing.

8 I will call the scheduled speakers to the 

9 table in pairs. It's this table here. When it 

10 is your turn to speak, please state your name and 

11 your affiliation before you begin your testimony. 

12 It will also help our court reporter if you 

13 spell your name.

14 In order to be fair to everyone, we will 

15 limit your testimony to 5 minutes each, and we 

16 will ask that you remain at the table until both 

17 speakers in the pair have finished.

18 After you finish your testimony, members 

19 of the panel may ask clarifying questions. 

20 However, we are not here to respond to questions 

21 from you. If in addition to the transcript of 

22 your testimony, you would also like us to put the 
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1 full text of your written comments into the 

2 docket, please be sure to give a copy of any 

3 written comments to our staff at the registration 

4 table.

5 We have a time-keeping system, consisting 

6 of green, yellow, and red lights to help you 

7 track your 5 minutes. When you begin speaking, 

8 the green light will come on. The yellow light 

9 will signal that you have 1 minute left to speak, 

10 and the red light comes on, 5 minutes have 

11 passed, and I will ask you to please complete 

12 your testimony. I will be firm about that.

13 Today's hearing is scheduled from 8:30 

14 and will continue till 4:30 or later, if 

15 necessary, depending on the number of speakers. 

16 The hearing will go on recess during the 

17 scheduled lunch break from 12 noon until 1 p.m. 

18 We will reconvene promptly at 1 p.m., and if 

19 you'd like to testify but are not yet registered 

20 to do so, please sign up at the registration 

21 table in the hallway out of this room. For those 

22 of you who have already registered to speak, we 
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1 have tried to accommodate your request for 

2 specific time slots. We ask for your patience as 

3 we proceed through the list of speakers, and we 

4 may need to make some adjustments as the day 

5 proceeds.

6 If any questions arise throughout the 

7 day, please see a staff member at the 

8 registration table for assistance.

9 So thank you all again for participating 

10 today. Let's get started. Our first pair of 

11 speakers is Carol Whitman and Jennifer Kefer. So 

12 if you'll go to the table, I'll ask Carol Whitman 

13 to be first and Jennifer Kefer to be second.

14 [Technical interruption.]

15 MR. HARVEY: Are you all ready? Okay, so 

16 we will begin.

17 MS. WHITMAN: Okay. My name is Carol 

18 Whitman, C-A-R-O-L, Whitman, W-H-I-T-M-A-N, and 

19 I'm representing the National Rural Electric 

20 Cooperative Association.

21 Good morning. On behalf of the National 

22 Rural Electric Cooperative Association, I 
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1 appreciate the opportunity to address aspects of 

2 EPA's proposed Clean Air Act Section 111 NSPS 

3 that immediately impose CO2 standards on new 

4 natural gas combined cycle and fossil fuel, 

5 steam, electric generating units. We will be 

6 submitting written comments to the docket 

7 detailing all our legal and policy concerns.

8 My comments today will address the 

9 proposal's two major assumptions: one, that 

10 natural gas will be available and affordable when 

11 and where future baseload electric generation is 

12 needed anywhere throughout the country; and two, 

13 that those efforts to develop carbon mitigation 

14 technology, referred to as carbon capture and 

15 storage, will be enhanced by this proposal.

16 NRECA is the national service 

17 organization for more than 900 not-for-profit 

18 rural electric utilities that provide electric 

19 service to approximately 42 million consumers in 

20 47 States. Cooperative generation provides for 

21 41 percent of all electric cooperative consumer 

22 needs. Eighty percent of this generation is 
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1 coal-fired.

2 Although our membership is relying more 

3 on natural gas in recent years to generate 

4 electricity, we believe that national policies 

5 should not effectively foreclose coal as an 

6 option for new generation as this does.

7 EPA has identified no direct benefits 

8 associated with this proposal. Its rationale 

9 seems to stem from two major EPA suppositions: 

10 first, that natural gas is both affordable and 

11 available throughout the continental U.S. to 

12 power a significant increase in the nation's 

13 baseload of electric generation into the future; 

14 and second, that implementing a presently 

15 unachievable CO2 and NSPS for coal plants will 

16 significantly spur the commercial development of 

17 technology to enable new coal-fired generation to 

18 meet the NSPS in the future. Both of these 

19 suppositions are false.

20 Regarding natural gas availability, EPA 

21 correctly excludes Hawaii and U.S. noncontinental 

22 territories from the proposed NSPS because of 
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1 natural gas pipeline unavailability, but the 

2 agency fails to address the question of whether 

3 natural gas is available throughout the 

4 continental U.S. New electric generating units 

5 must be situated to ensure electric grid 

6 stability and the liability, locating new 

7 baseload generation at sites where adequate 

8 electric transmission exists and where natural 

9 gas capacity is contemporaneously available as 

10 well.

11 In many geographic areas of the country, 

12 significant new natural gas baseload generation 

13 cannot be built because of natural gas or 

14 electric transmission inadequacies. This 

15 proposal ignores these siting impediments and 

16 instead focuses only on computer model 

17 projections and future wholesale natural gas 

18 prices.

19 Historically, the government has 

20 consistently failed to accurately predict future 

21 natural gas prices. The significant exportations 

22 of U.S. natural gas anticipated in just several 
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1 years, natural gas markets will likely have 

2 national gas pricing implications.

3 The cost of electricity from natural gas 

4 generation is a strong function of this fuel's 

5 price. No one knows how much natural gas will be 

6 available in certain regions and certainly not 

7 what the future delivered price may be.

8 This proposal, however, would force the 

9 electric utility industry to use only natural gas 

10 in vast regions of the country for new baseload 

11 generation where new nuclear has no promise.

12 NRECA has recognized that national 

13 policies may result in the need to develop and 

14 commercialize technologies that reliably and cost 

15 effectively capture and sequester carbon from 

16 fossil fuel electric generation. We have 

17 participated in several national coalitions, 

18 directed significant individual organizational 

19 efforts to support scientific research and 

20 demonstration projects, and supported policy 

21 initiatives that we hope will lead to 

22 commercialization of CCS technologies to generate 
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1 -- allow a generation from fossil fuel.

2 We would like to continue these 

3 endeavors, because we believe the nation must 

4 retain the coal option to generate power.

5 One of our members, South Mississippi 

6 Electric Cooperative, has partnered with 

7 Mississippi Power in the Kemper project that is 

8 designed to generate electricity from coal and 

9 provide CO2 for enhanced oil recovery.

10 Another cooperative member, Basis 

11 Electric, has operated Dakota Gasification 

12 separates CO2 for EOR for years. The ability to 

13 sequester EOR is geographically limited, and deep 

14 well geologic sequestration is in the 

15 developmental stages and must be perfected for 

16 CCS to become viable throughout the US.

17 The presumption that this proposal will 

18 spur and encourage commercialization of geologic 

19 sequestration is misguided. The proposal 

20 maintains that geologic sequestration technology 

21 is feasible and practically commercialized based 

22 on operations of several existing facilities 
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1 within the U.S., but the administration's own 

2 interagency task force on carbon capture noted 

3 only when financial, economic, technological, 

4 legal, and institutional barriers are addressed 

5 will CCS be a viable option.

6 None of the commercial integrated CCS 

7 facilities cited in the proposal's quest for CO2

8 for geologic sequestration well storage. None 

9 have undergone permitting process, acquisition 

10 space, fully assessed and assumed the cost 

11 liabilities. So only when the facilities are 

12 permitting and operated for years will the 

13 feasibility enter the viability.

14 Thank you very much.

15 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

16 We propose that Jennifer Kefer to speak 

17 next, and then if we have clarification 

18 questions, both of you stay there, and we can ask 

19 those questions.

20 MS. KEFER: [Speaking off mic.]

21 MR. HARVEY: The yellow light, would you 

22 like to be told when it goes on? Is that --
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1 MS. KEFER: [Speaking off mic.]

2 ATTENDEE: It means 1 minute left.

3 MR. HARVEY: One minute, yes. It just 

4 means one minute.

5 MS. KEFER: I am going to spell my name. 

6 We have a carefully timed 5 minutes. I am going 

7 to spell my name. You don't start yet, right? 

8 It's Jennifer Kefer, K-E-F-E-R, speaking on 

9 behalf of the Alliance for Industrial Efficiency.

10 MR. HARVEY: Are you ready?

11 MS. KEFER: I want to thank you for the 

12 opportunity to testify today on the proposed 

13 carbon standards for new utilities. As I said, I 

14 am speaking on behalf of the Alliance for 

15 Industrial Efficiency. We are a diverse 

16 coalition that includes representatives from the 

17 labor, contractor, environmental, and business 

18 communities, and we are joining together to 

19 advocate for ways to advance combined heat and 

20 power and waste heat recovery.

21 Most importantly, I want to commend EPA 

22 for your growing recognition about the role that 
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1 energy efficiency has to play.

2 As was recognized in the sensitivity 

3 analysis that EPA performed for the utility map, 

4 this is really the most cost-effective means of 

5 reducing emissions. In that analysis, you found 

6 that a small set of energy efficiency measures 

7 can reduce compliance costs under that rule by 

8 $11 million by the year 2020.

9 On a larger scale, we see even greater 

10 benefits from combined heat and power listed 

11 recovery. In 2008, Department of Energy's Oak 

12 Ridge National Laboratory found that CHP can 

13 provide 20 percent of U.S. electric capacity by 

14 the year 2030, and with that full-scale 

15 deployment, you would provide 1 million new jobs 

16 in the design, construction, installation, and 

17 maintenance of CHP equipment, and how carbon 

18 reduction is comparable to removing one-half of 

19 the passenger vehicles off the road.

20 Now, many of those types of projects 

21 could occur at utilities. We see that just a few 

22 hours south of here in Hopewell, Virginia, have 
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1 the St. James cogeneration facility. It's a 100-

2 megawatt coal-fired facility that is selling 

3 electricity to the local cooperative and then 

4 transferring thermal energy, steam, to the 

5 adjacent Honeywell chemical manufacturing 

6 facility.

7 And we are hopeful that as EPA moves 

8 forward in the near future with policies for 

9 existing sources that they will find ways to have 

10 additional incentives to encourage those types of 

11 utility-industrial collaborations.

12 We are very grateful to see that there's 

13 pieces in this rule that encourage those types of 

14 collaborations, and in particular the use of an 

15 output-based standard goes a long way. This is 

16 something we urged EPA to do last year during the 

17 NSPS listening sessions, and we are gratified to 

18 see its inclusion in the proposed rule.

19 I do, however, offer a few modest 

20 recommendations to improve the output-based 

21 standard. As you know, utilities produce two 

22 forms of energy. There's both electricity and 
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1 thermal energy, or heat, and the applicable 

2 standard for this rule recognizes thermal output, 

3 which is a great thing, but it provides a 

4 discount for that output using a 75-percent 

5 multiplier. We would encourage EPA to provide 

6 full credit fro the full thermal energy produced 

7 from ACHP system.

8 We are also concerned that folks might 

9 not even be aware that this credit exists. It's 

10 only mentioned right now in the definition 

11 section for gross output, and we suggest it be 

12 elevated to be included in the preamble.

13 We also would encourage EPA to 

14 incorporate some guidelines, so facilities know 

15 how to accurately measure their thermal output, 

16 and that would create greater accountability.

17 EPA says in the proposed rule that you 

18 intend to offer a line loss credit for avoided 

19 transmission and distribution losses associated 

20 with the CHP system. Transmission and 

21 distribution line losses are a significant 

22 problem with electricity in the United States. 
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1 EIA reports that on average, 7 percent of our 

2 electricity is lost in this way, and this is one 

3 of the great virtues of distributed generation 

4 that you avoid the line losses associated with 

5 centralized power.

6 However, here is the irony. For a CHP 

7 facility to be covered by the rule, it needs to 

8 sell large quantities of its power back to the 

9 grid, and so the rationale supporting the line 

10 loss credit is actually lost for that portion of 

11 the power that is sold long distances.

12 Instead, we would suggest that EPA award 

13 a line loss credit for CHP systems for the 

14 electricity that is used on site or where it can 

15 be demonstrated that line losses are minimized by 

16 optimal location of the sales.

17 Where such a credit is appropriate, we 

18 think that 5 percent is too small, and that it 

19 should be increased to 7 percent to match the 

20 actual line losses that were seen in the United 

21 States, which can be 20 percent during periods of 

22 peak loads.
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1 If these modest changes are made, we 

2 don't think there's any need to grant an 

3 exemption for CHP as EPA proposes in the rule. 

4 In fact, we think that there's some general 

5 disfavor to exempting preferred technologies, and 

6 CHP can hold its own weight with these modest 

7 changes.

8 In fact, a coal-fired CHP facility with a 

9 back pressure steam turbine could beat the 1,000 

10 pounds carbon per megawatt hour standard in the 

11 proposed rule.

12 I look forward to supplementing these 

13 comments in our written comments, I will submit 

14 for the 25th deadline.

15 Again, thank you for the opportunity to 

16 testify today.

17 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

18 Let me see if our panelists have any 

19 clarifying questions. No?

20 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: On the reference to 

21 the Mississippi company that was involved with 

22 EOR, I just wanted to clarify whether that was a 
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1 carbon capture application.

2 MS. KEFER: Yes. I believe that's the 

3 new plant that's being constructed.

4 MR. HARVEY: Thank you both.

5 MS. KEFER: Thank you very much.

6 MR. HARVEY: Our next pair of speakers --

7 and for those of you who are new, the logistics 

8 are that I'm going to call you up in pairs, have 

9 each of you stay while the other speaks. We'll 

10 take clarifying questions, and then having gone 

11 through that, it will make the flow easier.

12 So our next pair of speakers are Sharon 

13 Steele and Akili West.

14 [Technical interruption.]

15 MR. HARVEY: Yeah, I noticed that too. 

16 Yeah, the audio is not great, but if you can 

17 speak loudly so we can hear you -- there's a lot 

18 of fan noise -- and our reporter can year you 

19 accurately, that would help.

20 So, Ms. Steele, if you could introduce 

21 yourself and spell your name for the court 

22 reporter, please.
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1 MS. STEELE: Good morning. I am Sharon 

2 Steele, S-H-A-R-O-N, S-T-E-E-L-E, vice mayor of 

3 the Town of St. Paul, Virginia. St. Paul is 

4 located in the coal fields of the far southwest 

5 Virginia. I am speaking today to share my 

6 concerns about EPA's newest regulations on coal 

7 fuel-powered plans and the devastating effect 

8 these regulations will have on thousands of 

9 working families in our area.

10 The two primary types of coal mines in 

11 southwest Virginia are metallurgical and steam. 

12 There seems to be a shift from the steam market 

13 due to the uncertainty of the future of coal14 fired power plants.

15 Coal employment is the major industry in 

16 Wise, Russell, Tazewell, Buchanan, and Dickenson 

17 Counties of southwest Virginia. Stringent EPA 

18 regulations will lead to reduction of the 

19 workforce in an area already with a struggling 

20 economy. Employment opportunities in southwest 

21 Virginia are dependent on the coal industry. The 

22 standards in economics is for every dollar lost 
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1 in wages, there are $7 lost in the overall 

2 economy.

3 With these new regulations, a domino 

4 effect will occur. First, we will see impact on 

5 coal revenues, trucking companies, heavy 

6 equipment companies, suppliers, et cetera. Then 

7 we'll come to loss of jobs in these industries, 

8 and the trickle-down effect will continue. This 

9 will affect working people of our country. How 

10 much of the cost of making these new regulations 

11 will be passed on to the average consumer?

12 There are too many people in my area who 

13 already are struggling to pay high electric and 

14 heat bills. How are they going to afford them if 

15 they lose their job as well? People should not 

16 have to choose between food and heat.

17 Policies designed to prevent the 

18 construction of new clean coal power plants will 

19 cause unnecessary hardship on the people in my 

20 area and all across the State of Virginia. 

21 Thirty-percent of the electricity in Virginia is 

22 generated from coal. Energy crisis and dormant 
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1 incomes are already straining the households of 

2 our lower and middle class families. If EPA 

3 moves forward with policies to prevent the 

4 construction of new coal power plants, it is 

5 inevitable that we will see higher electricity 

6 rates, higher natural gas prices, job losses, and 

7 future electric reliability sources.

8 Are we going to depend on nuclear power 

9 with all its environmental woes or natural gas to 

10 monopolize production of electricity, seeing the 

11 price of electricity rising at an unprecedented 

12 rate? In recent years, there has been 

13 significant employment in coal plants --

14 improvements in coal plants, including a 

15 reduction in emission of 90 percent per unit of 

16 generated electricity. Coal is still a very 

17 viable and affordable resource.

18 I have always supported clean air and 

19 stand today in strong support of clean coal power 

20 plants, but I am asking the EPA to withdraw the 

21 rigid proposed regulations that requires 

22 installation of technology that isn't yet 
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1 available. It should not be the goal of the EPA 

2 to harm the families where the economic structure 

3 of the lower and middle class families or 

4 anywhere in America.

5 Thank you.

6 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

7 Mr. West.

8 MR. WEST: Okay. My name is Akili West, 

9 spelled A-K-I-L-I. Last name, West. Good 

10 morning, and thank you of providing the 

11 opportunity today to testify on behalf of a small 

12 corner of the world which I affectionately call 

13 the President's Back Yard, the communities of 

14 Ward 8 in Washington, D.C.

15 I stand before you as a citizen, a 

16 father, a mentor, an activist, an educator, and 

17 finally as an entrepreneur representing those 

18 with the audacity to hope that we as a country 

19 will make the tough choices that bring the 

20 necessary shift to cleaner, more sustainable 

21 means of producing and managing the energy which 

22 powers our lives.
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1 Now, people in my area of the world pay 

2 twice for energy. They pay for a natural rate, 

3 which it comes to their bill, and they pay in 

4 terms of health with the clouds and plumes of 

5 sulfur dioxide and nitrous oxide which comes from 

6 plants such as the Mirant plant, the GenOn plant 

7 in Alexandria, which we fought hard to close last 

8 year.

9 This comes down river. It pollutes our 

10 air. It pollutes our water, and as a result, we 

11 have some of the highest incidence of asthma in 

12 this region.

13 That particular action, which we and many 

14 others -- we in Ward 8 and many others around the 

15 city and around the country, organizations which 

16 are represented here today and some which are 

17 not, was an example of good policies being able -

18 - of good policies giving people the power to 

19 effect change and effect the type of change which 

20 they want for themselves and their future.

21 Our President, Barack Obama, has done so 

22 far than any president in my lifetime to seek and 
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1 support alternatives, while realizing that the 

2 balance, which must be kept as we make this power 

3 shift, there must be a balance.

4 Now, the progressive policies of this 

5 administration such as the proposed carbon 

6 control standards, which I'm here to support 

7 today, are steps in the right direction, and I 

8 urge you to continue with these types of actions.

9 While some may ask what is the cost of 

10 doing this now, I ask what is the cost of 

11 waiting. Laws and standards such as the proposed 

12 empower people by providing a powerful tool of 

13 recourse for American citizens against big 

14 businesses who pollute.

15 Now, one good example of this is, again, 

16 the Mirant plant in Alexandria owned by Genon. 

17 Last summer, my business hired 16 young Ward 8 

18 and Ward 7 young folks, and we taught them the 

19 ins and outs of energy, energy efficiency, and 

20 these were folks who had never paid an energy 

21 bill. These were folks who were not informed as 

22 to how the energy they used was produced, and 
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1 when they were, they were alarmed.

2 When they did learn about the GenOn plant 

3 and other coal-fired plants, they were alarmed. 

4 When they were able to relate the health problems 

5 that come as a result of these emissions to their 

6 everyday lives, they were very alarmed, and as a 

7 result, they wrote letters to their mayor to push 

8 them to do the right thing under EPA Section 126.

9 And I've got two of those letters right 

10 here with me today, and I think they are much 

11 more poignant than anything else that I could 

12 say. So I'd like to finish off with those.

13 Again, these were written in support, and 

14 I don't actually think I brought the two that I 

15 meant to bring, but this one is from Mr. Dale 

16 Rollins, a young 18-year-old here in the 

17 District. He says, "Dear Mayor Gray, my name is 

18 Dale Rollins. I am a current sophomore student 

19 at the University of Maryland Eastern Shore. 

20 Also, I'm a Summer Youth employee who assists Mr. 

21 Akili West as a weatherization assistant. I 

22 wrote this thank-you letter to express my 
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1 gratitude towards your action of suing the 

2 Potomac River generation station, because of 

3 their constant and continuous use and production 

4 of sulphur dioxide. This is problematic toward 

5 many in our ward, because it negatively affects 

6 the air we breathe. It pollutes our earth 

7 tremendously. We also do not have enough proper 

8 health treatments to support our medical issues. 

9 So, at the most, I applaud your grave and 

10 gracious act in support of this company's 

11 resentful action -- or against this company's 

12 resentful action hurting our environment."

13 Another one, quickly, "My name is Danetta 

14 Johnson representing the Ward 8 Renewable Energy 

15 Co-op. I am writing to you to say thanks for 

16 getting on the project of stopping the Genom 

17 plant. I am a resident of Ward 8 where I was 

18 born and raised, and I am affected with asthma. 

19 I understand the chemicals in the air are 

20 dangerous and are affecting lots of people in my 

21 area. I am thankful that you are joining the 

22 fight to work on our behalf."
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1 And so I thank you for your time.

2 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

3 Do we have questions?

4 [No response.]

5 MR. HARVEY: Okay. Thank you both.

6 Our next pair of speakers is Jim Hunter 

7 and Jonathan Morgenstein.

8 We'll start with Mr. Hunter. If you 

9 could just --

10 Do you need people to spell their names 

11 for you every time?

12 Okay. So I think you can begin without 

13 spelling your name, Mr. Hunter.

14 MR. HUNTER: All right. It's a fairly 

15 easy one to get.

16 MR. HARVEY: Right.

17 MR. HUNTER: Good afternoon. I'm Jim 

18 Hunter. I am the director of the Utility 

19 Department for the International Brotherhood of 

20 Electrical Workers.

21 MR. HARVEY: Can you hold on for one 

22 second?
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1 [Pause.]

2 MR. HARVEY: Pardon me. Could you just 

3 reset it and start from the beginning? Please. 

4 Please start again.

5 MR. HUNTER: All right. Good afternoon. 

6 I'm Jim Hunter. I am the director of the 

7 Utility Department for the International 

8 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.

9 We have about 20,000 members that work in 

10 the coal-fired power plants across the country, 

11 in the U.S. and Canada, and we are impacted, 

12 obviously, by the CO2 emission rules.

13 We believe that the propose rule is 

14 fatally flawed by combining conventional steam 

15 electric generating units with natural gas 

16 combined-cycle units in a single category. 

17 EPA has a 40-year history of setting 

18 separate new source performance standards for 

19 steam electric generating units, and there's no 

20 reason to depart from that tradition.

21 The IBEW recommends that EPA re-propose 

22 this rule providing NSPS for steam electric 
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1 generating units fueled by coal, oil, or natural 

2 gas and a separate category for natural gas 

3 combined-cycle units.

4 We have four principal reasons for this. 

5 The first is that the rule should be consistent 

6 with EPA's best available control technology, the 

7 guidance that was issued in 2011. The back 

8 guidance for major new stationary sources require 

9 the application of carbon capture and storage 

10 technology simply requires that CCS be considered 

11 in the permitting process.

12 The proposed rule mandates CCS for new 

13 units either day one of a standard of 1,000 

14 pounds per CO2 megawatt hour or an average over a 

15 30-year lifetime. CCS has not been commercially 

16 demonstrated at utility scale applications in the 

17 country, and the technology is not economically 

18 feasible in the absence of the carbon market, 

19 bonus allowances or similar methods of offsets to 

20 the additional cost.

21 The Interagency Task Force on CCS 

22 recognized these facts in their 2010 report. EPA 
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1 acknowledges in their proposed rule that CCS 

2 raises the cost of generating electricity from 

3 new coal units by about 80 percent.

4 Second proposed rule creates an 

5 unworkable permitting and financing process for 

6 coal units that may plan to comply by installing 

7 CCS 10 years or more after the initial operation. 

8 Obtaining a construction permit would require 

9 the CCS components of the plant be engineered and 

10 contracted a decade or more in advance, covering 

11 all aspects of CCS transportation and storage 

12 process, including liability coverage.

13 We don't believe it would be possible to 

14 contract the CCS components of a plant so far in 

15 advance or obtain financing for the future 

16 applications of a technology that has not been 

17 commercially demonstrated to scale.

18 Third, the rule would force utilities to 

19 rely on natural gas combined-cycle units 

20 regardless of the future natural gas prices. We 

21 have estimated over 50 gigawatts of coal capacity 

22 coming offline in the next 3 to 5 years in 
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1 response to EPA's mercury and air toxic rules, 

2 causing the loss of tens of thousands of jobs not 

3 only at the power plants but in transportation 

4 and coal mining.

5 Natural gas prices are sure to increase 

6 in response to the higher gas demand by 

7 utilities. Utilities need to have the option of 

8 building new advanced coal capacity. This 

9 proposal would eliminate construction even though 

10 the cleanest coal plants equipped with backed 

11 technology such as scrubbers, SCR, bag hazards, 

12 and mercury control.

13 Finally, the IBEW's work with Congress to 

14 ensure that any climate language -- legislation 

15 include language that requires our trading 

16 partners to also reduce their CO2 emissions if the 

17 U.S. commits to a reduction strategy. The EPA 

18 policy on CO2 reductions would force the U.S. to 

19 act to reduce CO2 while allowing our competitors 

20 to release emissions without restriction, giving 

21 them another competitive advantage.

22 The climate change issue is a global one 
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1 and can't be solved by the U.S. alone.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

4 Mr. Morgenstein.

5 MR. MORGENSTEIN: Good morning. My name 

6 is actually Jonathan "Morgenstein."

7 MR. HARVEY: "Morgenstein." Sorry.

8 MR. MORGENSTEIN: M-O-R-G-E-N-S-T-E-I-N, 

9 and Jonathan is J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N.

10 I served 21 years in the Marine Corps 

11 Reserves, including two tours in Iraq and one in 

12 Bosnia, and additionally, I spent most of the 

13 last 2 years as a civilian at the Pentagon. I am 

14 not speaking of behalf of the Marine Corps or the 

15 DoD or the U.S. Government. I am, however, 

16 representing Operation Free, which is a network 

17 of veterans across the country who believe our 

18 nation's fossil fuel addiction and our 

19 contribution to climate change threaten our 

20 national security.

21 I'm not a scientist, so I take the word 

22 of the exhaustive list of scientific 
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1 organizations, U.S. and globally, that have said 

2 that climate change is both real and 

3 significantly caused by human production of 

4 greenhouse gases.

5 I do, however, know that this climate 

6 change has caused global devastating and 

7 threatens American interests and our national 

8 security. So I want to talk with you about by 

9 enacting these standards, the EPA will reduce the 

10 risks and impacts of climate change and thereby 

11 save lives across the earth and make America 

12 safer.

13 First, consider Somalia where climate 

14 change has induced and exacerbated drought and 

15 famine, leading to poverty, social 

16 disintegration, extremist violence, and piracy. 

17 Climate change in Somalia has spawned a 

18 spectacular array of national security threats to 

19 the U.S. and our allies.

20 Al-Shabaab born in the droughts of 

21 Somalia is a self-proclaimed Al-Qaeda-affiliated 

22 terrorist group. They have not only executed 
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1 successful terrorist attacks against our friends 

2 in Kenya and Uganda, but they have actively and 

3 successfully recruited Americans to execute 

4 terrorist attacks against Americans on American

5 soil.

6 Somali pirates, while the subject of 

7 jokes very often, they cost the U.S. military in 

8 2009 alone $64 million and the global economy 

9 just last year $12 billion. By combatting 

10 greenhouse gases at home and thereby climate 

11 change, we are combatting the fertile ground of 

12 extremism and violence around the world.

13 Second, the genocide in Darfur in Western 

14 Sudan is perhaps the most vivid example of 

15 conflict caused by climate change. Between 2004 

16 and 2009, out of a population of 7 million 

17 people, over 450,000 people were killed; over 3 

18 million people were forced from their homes. The 

19 basic reason for this conflict was the expanding 

20 southward of the Sahara Desert and the resulting 

21 inter-ethnic conflicts over arable land and 

22 water.
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1 Let me end with this third troubling 

2 scenario. Imagine that the single country in the 

3 world most drastically affected by climate change 

4 is a fragile nuclear arms state, one that has 

5 limped along for decades on the edge of total 

6 political collapse, plagued by pervasive 

7 corruption and networks of violent religious 

8 extremists, and, of course, we're talking about 

9 Pakistan where experts estimate that one-quarter 

10 of Pakistan's land area and half its population 

11 are vulnerable to climate change-related 

12 disasters.

13 Flooding in 2010 covered one-fifth of the 

14 entire country, significantly caused by melting 

15 glaziers from climate change. If we do not slow 

16 climate change and its devastating effects, the 

17 rate and scale of resulting global violence will 

18 escalate rapidly over decades. The price of our 

19 continued carbon pollution will continued to be 

20 paid in economic devastating around the globe. 

21 It takes a long time, but that externality does 

22 come back home to roost, and we, the United 
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1 States, do pay the price, even if it's not up 

2 front and it's not so obvious.

3 So the EPA does have a responsibility to 

4 impose these regulations to drive down these 

5 externalities, to reduce the cost to the world 

6 and to American national security. In the long 

7 run by combatting carbon pollution at home, 

8 installing or reversing the tide of climate 

9 change, we are combatting the fertile ground of 

10 extremism and violence globally and keeping 

11 America safe.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. Thank you very 

14 much.

15 Our next pair of speakers are Rob Talley 

16 and Keith Ware. So if you both will come up to 

17 the table?

18 MR. TALLEY: Good morning. My name is 

19 Rob Talley, last name T-A-L-L-E-Y, and I appear 

20 to offer comments about the NSPS for greenhouse 

21 gas rules for electric generating units.

22 My comments are on behalf of Tri-State 
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1 Generation and Transmission Association, a not2 for-profit wholesale electric power supplier 

3 based in Denver, Colorado.

4 Tri-State provides power to 44 member 

5 distribution companies serving customers 

6 throughout 250,000 square miles in Colorado, 

7 Nebraska, New Mexico, and Wyoming. We have a 

8 diverse fuel mix and are pursuing new generation. 

9 New EGUs owned and operated by Tri-State and 

10 Tri-State's existing EGUs would be negatively 

11 impacted by the proposed rule and the precedence 

12 that it sets.

13 Tri-State respectfully requests that EPA 

14 take prompt and decisive action to withdraw the 

15 proposed rule in its entirety. My comments 

16 highlight the key issues that the NSPS, A, lacks 

17 legal basis, B, incorrectly groups together coal 

18 and gas-fired facilities, and, C, unreasonably 

19 creates a 12-month period for so-called 

20 "transitional units" to commence construction.

21 Legal basis. The proposed legal basis 

22 includes relying on EPA's previous findings that 
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1 EGU emissions endanger public health and welfare, 

2 or a new finding that carbon dioxide emissions 

3 from EGUs cause or contribute to endangerment 

4 from greenhouse gases, which EPA claims can be 

5 satisfied with EPA's 2009 automobile endangerment 

6 finding or a new finding that a large volume of 

7 emissions from EGUs provides a rational basis for 

8 the NSPS.

9 Tri-State's perspective is that none of 

10 the legal theories or any combination thereof 

11 provides EPA with the legal authority to propose 

12 the NSPS.

13 The proposed NSPS incorrectly groups coal 

14 and gas-fired units. EPA incorrectly groups 

15 together coal-fired boilers and natural gas-fired 

16 combined cycle turbines for compliance with the 

17 same NSPS emissions limit.

18 EPA asserts that natural gas combined 

19 cycle is the best system of emissions reductions 

20 in the context of the NSPS. The propose rule's 

21 emission limits requires 1,000 pound CO2 per 

22 megawatt hour and is unreasonably stringent, not 
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1 representative of the technical feasibility and 

2 function that ban the development of new coal 

3 power plants.

4 No existing or new coal-fired electric 

5 generation unit can meet the standard proposed by 

6 EPA. The carbon capture and storage technology 

7 that EPA claims can be applied at any coal-fired 

8 units is many years away from being technically 

9 practical, commercially available, legally 

10 defensible, not to mention the huge costs. And I 

11 would note that the IBEW comments that preceded 

12 mine are similar along these lines.

13 Based on experience, Tri-State is 

14 concerned that developing new EGUs, meeting the 

15 emissions limits, will be problematic or 

16 impossible, and Tri-State is concerned about the 

17 precedent set by the proposed NSPS for a possible 

18 future NSPS that would explicitly apply to 

19 existing EGUs and to simple cycle turbines.

20 The requirement for transitional units to 

21 commence construction within 12 months should be 

22 eliminated. EPA creates a requirement for 
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1 transitional units to commence construction by 

2 April 13th to remain categorized as such based on 

3 EPA's assertion that it does not have sufficient 

4 information about cost sunk into the development 

5 of these units. The arbitrary requirement to 

6 commence construction within the 12 months of the 

7 proposal is no relation to the ongoing 

8 proceedings, legal proceedings, and should be 

9 eliminated.

10 In summary, EPA's proposal is without 

11 adequate legal basis, and its requirements are 

12 unreasonably stringent for new and transitional 

13 units. We request that the rule be withdrawn, 

14 and thank you for the opportunity to comment. 

15 And I would say I appreciate that you all have 

16 got a long day ahead of you. Thank you.

17 [Laughter.]

18 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

19 Now Keith Ware.

20 MR. WARE: Yes. Hello. My name is Keith 

21 Ware. That's K-E-I-T-H, W-A-R-E. I am one of 

22 the principals of GLI, LLC, and we are speaking 
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1 in support of the carbon standards, but what we 

2 are trying to talk about here are new 

3 technologies. We try actively to break the mold 

4 on what people think of or what people know of as 

5 fuel.

6 I brought with me today one of the 

7 examples. I will talk about one of them right 

8 here. Let me make sure.

9 Okay. Many inventions that we have 

10 created in the United States have sadly -- I 

11 mean, we have created the CFL. We have created 

12 the solar, thermal, and wind turbine, but, 

13 unfortunately, many of these technologies were 

14 sadly -- they sadly left the United States, 

15 because nobody in the United States would support 

16 these new technologies, only the oil and -- oil, 

17 gas, and the conventional things.

18 So now that we want them back, we have to 

19 pay a premium for that which we already had here 

20 in the United States, and what I am saying is 

21 that Mr. Obama's initiatives can possibly help 

22 via a stake of the exodus of the IP to other 
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1 countries.

2 And one of those technologies, which I am 

3 here to show you today, is what we affectionately 

4 call the "Magic Tree." It's a hybrid tree which 

5 the EPA is already very familiar with, using in 

6 one of their projects, that it's good for 

7 environmental mediation, energy generation, 

8 economic development, and social stability. This 

9 tree is capable of growing in almost any 

10 condition, the minus 20 degrees in Alaska plus 

11 120 degrees in the Sahara Desert. It grows and 

12 remediates most soil. It is noninvasive. It is 

13 not genetically modified. If I had a lump of 

14 coal the same density as this, this would have 

15 more energy than that same lump of coal, mainly 

16 because --

17 Here's one of the benefits of this tree. 

18 If I were to take an ordinary oak tree, a full19 grown oak tree, would remove about 50 pounds of 

20 carbon out of the air every year. A full-grown 

21 Magic Tree removes over 1 metric ton of carbon 

22 out of the air per year. So this is mostly 
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1 carbon. It grows up to 65-feet high, and the 

2 tree also releases over 6 kilograms of oxygen 

3 into the atmosphere every day.

4 It has five basic revenue streams. So 

5 this tree is an economic engine wherever it is. 

6 Right now, there is a plantation in South 

7 Carolina.

8 There are five basic root streams. I'll 

9 just touch on the five. The sales of the root. 

10 The only way this tree can grow is by planting 

11 it: harvesting the root, cutting it up into 3-

12 inch pieces, and planting it. So the root sales 

13 -- the lumber from this tree is incredible, 

14 because the wood is as light as balsa but is as 

15 hard as ebony wood. The fuel from it as biomass 

16 or it can be used in a plasma gasification. The 

17 carbon credits along for people who are looking 

18 at it from a financial standpoint, each tree in 

19 your grove represents a carbon credit, and one 

20 more that doesn't really apply here, one more 

21 revenue stream -- the lumber, the fuel 

22 generation, the carbon credits, and then the last 
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1 one that we talk about here is a little bit 

2 crazy, honey. For some reason, bees love this 

3 tree. For every tree that's in the grove, it 

4 produces over 40 pounds of honey per tree in the 

5 grove.

6 As I mentioned before, this tree is an 

7 economic stimulus in many ways. If you have a 

8 grove, you have to hire at least two people per 

9 acre at a family supporting wage, not a minimum 

10 wage. They'd work with John Deere to generate 

11 new types of equipment to help harvest the root, 

12 so John Deere is waiting for this tree to 

13 proliferate, so that they can make more tractors 

14 and make more money. So this is a genuine 

15 economic stimulus.

16 MR. HARVEY: Mr. Ware, your time has 

17 expired.

18 MR. WARE: Okay. That is almost is.

19 I just had some photos that I was going 

20 to pass on to you.

21 MR. HARVEY: We'd be happy to see those. 

22 Thank you.
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1 MR. WARE: Sure. EPA is already using 

2 this tree today.

3 Thank you.

4 MR. HARVEY: Thank you both.

5 Do we have questions?

6 A question for Mr. Ware, what is the 

7 Latin name of this tree?

8 MR. WARE: It was invented by a Dr. Ray 

9 out in California. It's a hybrid cross between 

10 paulownia and a black locust tree, and it's 

11 actually very complicated.

12 And the part about the IP leaving the 

13 U.S., China has just ordered last week 1 billion 

14 of these trees to stop the growth of the Gobi 

15 Desert. It's the only tree that they could find 

16 that could actually grow and stop it.

17 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

18 MR. WARE: If you cut the tree off, a new 

19 tree will grow up in the middle of the stump.

20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

21 We'll be happy to take your -- do you 

22 want these back or --
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1 MR. WARE: I don't need them.

2 MR. HARVEY: Okay.

3 Our next pair of speakers are Kalin 

4 Williams and Christer Watson. Please come to the 

5 table up front. 

6 And just to be prepared, after this pair, 

7 we have Jalonne White-Newsome and Brenda Afzal. 

8 So you're on deck.

9 So are we ready? Okay. If you could 

10 introduce yourself and spell your name, please.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Greetings. My name 

12 is Kalin Williams. I am a resident of Ward 7 

13 D.C. and the founder of the Earth's Visible 

14 Energy.

15 I would like to first start off by saying 

16 I grew up in a community called River Terrace, 

17 which is directly across from the power plant 

18 Pepco, and we're also surrounded by the Anacostia 

19 River. I can recall stories of the elders saying 

20 when Pepco first came, they would come outside to 

21 see white ashes on cars and how now my community 

22 is considered a cancer cluster.
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1 Now, a lot of these things could have 

2 been avoided in the beginning if these type of 

3 proposals that you all have were implemented. 

4 Now that you all have this, I would like to thank 

5 you, and I really hope that you push this forward 

6 as the Environmental Protection Agency, because a 

7 lot is on the line, the health of our families, 

8 the health of our elders, the health of the 

9 youth, and eventually -- I don't know how your 

10 family is, but I'm sure you might have 

11 grandchildren or great grandchildren. So it's 

12 greater than just the economic side of it.

13 But right now, it seems like we're at a 

14 point in this journey where we can continue the 

15 path created by the Industrial Revolution when we 

16 do the same thing over and over again and make 

17 the environmental situation worse, or we can work 

18 together to create a type of economy that 

19 respects the balance of the people, planet, and 

20 profit. We can all win.

21 So I'd really like to thank you all for 

22 this opportunity, and I really pray and hope that 
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1 we really implement what it means to be a steward 

2 of the earth. It is not a cause where, you know, 

3 it's all about the money that we're going to lose 

4 in the beginning, because the question is can we 

5 afford not to make these changes, can we afford 

6 to see more cancer clusters created, can we 

7 afford to see the ecological community suffer, 

8 and the elders' health just deteriorate with time 

9 in the name of saving some money up front.

10 In the future, it's going to cost us more 

11 from the health benefit, from the climate 

12 benefit, and there's so many factors that we 

13 can't even put our fingers on.

14 So I'd just urge you all and really pray 

15 that, you know, we can continue to push this 

16 forward, because we're looking forward to the 

17 Environmental Protection Agency to protect us and 

18 all generations from now and behind.

19 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

20 Christer Watson.

21 MR. WATSON: Thank you for your time. 

22 I'd like to speak in support of the regulation. 
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1 I'm an associate professor of physics as 

2 Manchester College, a small liberal arts college 

3 in Northeast Indiana.

4 And as a physics professor, I like to 

5 think about climate change in as intuitive a way 

6 as possible, and a recent paper in Nature 

7 quantified climate change not in terms of degrees 

8 changes anticipated per year or per century but 

9 in velocity. That is kilometers per year at 

10 which various ecosystems and climate changes move 

11 north in the northern hemisphere, and in the 

12 Midwest, the average velocity of climate change 

13 is about a kilometer per second where I live. So 

14 you can imagine areas further south, the habits, 

15 the climate slowly approaching where I live.

16 And I think no other way of thinking 

17 about climate change I find as scary as that 

18 ever-present movement of the climate north, not 

19 because of what will happen, of course, in a few 

20 years or even 10 or 20 years but several 

21 generations later, as the continual movement 

22 north of climate occurs. Well, I fear as to what 
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1 climate will be leaving and what habitats will be 

2 leaving for future generations.

3 Now, I realize, of course, that this 

4 regulation is not based entirely on how scary 

5 climate change is or how true climate change is, 

6 but I do believe that the wholesale change of 

7 ecosystems certainly warrants new regulations, 

8 and I would encourage the EPA to implement these 

9 new regulations.

10 Thanks for your time and for your whole 

11 day of listening to public comment.

12 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

13 Other questions?

14 [No response.]

15 MR. HARVEY: Thank you both.

16 Our next pair of speakers, Jalonne White17 Newsome and Brenda Afzal.

18 [Technical interruption.]

19 MR. HARVEY: We will start with Ms. 

20 White-Newsome. If you could start by spelling 

21 your name for the reporter.

22 DR. WHITE-NEWSOME: Sure. J-A-L-O-N-N-E, 
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1 and the last name is White-Newsome.

2 MR. HARVEY: Oh, sorry.

3 MR. HARVEY: W-H-I-T-E, hyphen, N-E-W-S4 O-M-E.

5 Good morning. My name is Dr. Jalonne 

6 White-Newsome, and I am a postdoctoral fellow on 

7 climate change, working on climate change and 

8 public health at the Union of Concerned 

9 Scientists, which is as science-based non-profit, 

10 working for a healthy environment in a safe 

11 world. Thank you for the opportunity to testify 

12 today.

13 EPA's proposed rule for carbon pollution 

14 standards for new power plants will reduce one of 

15 the largest sources of carbon pollution that can 

16 contribute to climate change. By installing 

17 technologies that can reduce harmful missions, 

18 the threat on human health, especially for 

19 children and the elderly and those with heart and 

20 respiratory problems, can be minimized.

21 Air pollutants such as carbon monoxide, 

22 sulfur dioxide, nitrous oxides, VOCs, and ozone 
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1 have both acute and chronic effects on human 

2 health. These effects can range from minor upper 

3 respiratory irritation, lung cancer, and other 

4 respiratory infections in children and adults.

5 Our warming climate mixed in with carbon, 

6 pollution, and other contaminants will increase 

7 ambient temperatures that can lead to more 

8 extreme weather conditions like heat waves. Heat 

9 waves are already the most deadly weather-related 

10 exposure in the U.S. and account for more deaths 

11 annually than hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, and 

12 earthquakes combined. So, consequently, whether 

13 you consider the pollution by itself or the lack 

14 of preparedness and planning that our communities 

15 are facing to handle the potentially exacerbated 

16 health impacts that are a result of carbon 

17 pollution, it's no matter time than now to do 

18 something about it and improve the quality of 

19 life for those that are already suffering with 

20 asthma and other chronic diseases.

21 As an environmental health professional 

22 and a person who has had the opportunity to study 
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1 for the past 4 years the effects of climate 

2 change specifically on the elderly, I appreciate 

3 and recognize the need to limit carbon pollution 

4 to protect some of our most precious populations, 

5 our elderly and our children. As a chemical and 

6 environmental engineer who worked in production 

7 and manufacturing for several years in an 

8 environmental management capacity, I respect the 

9 need to produce power and electricity so we can 

10 enjoy the simple pleasures in life.

11 I also understand the cost to both labor 

12 and time that are necessary to make facilities 

13 more streamlined. So I know firsthand it is 

14 possible to create a better system to reduce 

15 pollution like carbon and protect our health, and 

16 I am a firm believer that you can make money, be 

17 productive, and still comply with environmental 

18 standards.

19 As a granddaughter, I have watched my 

20 grandparents, now in their 80s and 90s, and have 

21 lived in Detroit, Michigan, my hometown, for over 

22 60 years struggle with multiple chronic diseases 
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1 and most recently deal with two extremely hot 

2 weather, hot summers where they literally 

3 struggled to breathe in their own home.

4 We know that climate change will make our 

5 summers hotter and increase intensity of heat 

6 waves. The EPA's proposed carbon pollution 

7 standard for new power plants and future 

8 standards that will limit carbon pollution from 

9 existing sources will help protect Americans, 

10 like my grandparents, from the impacts of climate 

11 change.

12 As a daughter, I have watched my mother 

13 manage day care centers and workplace development 

14 facilities in the City of Detroit as well for the 

15 past 30 years. The areas of the city where most 

16 of her clients come from are areas like Zug 

17 Island, Delray, and Conner, which are all near 

18 power facilities and are already areas that are 

19 disproportionately impacted by pollution and 

20 industry, and many of the people are already 

21 suffering from health conditions like asthma just 

22 because of where they live.
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1 But what struck me the most is that over 

2 the past 10 years, my mom has noticed that the 

3 number of kids and adults that need breathing 

4 treatments has increased, really more than 

5 doubled over time. Unfortunately, we know that 

6 the number of people who will suffer from 

7 respiratory illnesses like asthma could get worse 

8 if we don't take steps to reduce carbon 

9 pollution.

10 Higher temperatures from climate change 

11 could, of course, increase ground-level ozone, 

12 the primary component of smog and one of the main 

13 pollutants that contribute to illnesses like 

14 asthma.

15 And most importantly, as a mother of two 

16 young girls ages 3 and 5, I can only imagine the 

17 stress, the fear, and the helplessness that comes 

18 with trying to protect young children their 

19 environment, the environment where they are 

20 supposed to live and play without fear that their 

21 health or the quality of life or their quality of 

22 life will suffer due to something they have no 
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1 control over, which is air pollution.

2 In conclusion, I support the EPA's 

3 efforts to protect our families and our 

4 communities from the impacts of climate change by 

5 placing limits on carbon pollution from new power 

6 plants and to move forward with standards that 

7 will reduce carbon pollution on existing sources. 

8 These standards for new power plants and future 

9 standards for existing sources will help avoid 

10 some of the worst consequences that come from our 

11 changing climate, especially the impact on the 

12 health of our elderly and our children.

13 Thank you again for the opportunity to be 

14 here.

15 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Ms. White16 Newsome.

17 Brenda Afzal. If you could also spell 

18 your name?

19 MS. AFZAL: B-R-E-N-D-A, A-F-Z-A-L, 

20 Brenda Afzal.

21 Good afternoon -- good morning. My name 

22 is Brand Afzal, and I am a community public 
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1 health nurse. I am on the Executive Board of the 

2 Alliance of Nurses for Healthy Environments, and 

3 I am here today representing the views of the 

4 nurse educators, researchers, practitioners, and 

5 advocates who are members of our alliance. They 

6 are greatly concerned about this issue and asked 

7 me to be here.

8 ANHE supports the Environmental 

9 Protection Agency's efforts to protect our health 

10 and reduce carbon emissions under this proposed 

11 carbon pollution standard for new power plants.

12 Power plant is the largest individual 

13 source of carbon pollution in the United States. 

14 As you know, we are here today because there is 

15 no uniform national limits on the amount of 

16 carbon pollution that future power plants will be 

17 able to emit.

18 Carbon pollution, as we all in the room 

19 know, stay in the atmosphere and contribute to 

20 climate change, which is a significant threat to 

21 public health and the environment for current and 

22 future generations. The health risks and climate 
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1 change are especially serious for children, the 

2 elderly, and for those with preexisting 

3 conditions, like my husband with cardiovascular 

4 disease who cannot go out Code Red days and my 

5 son with asthma and my brand-new little baby 

6 granddaughter. So we're now talking about three 

7 generations in my family who had issues on Code 

8 Red days and Code Orange days as well.

9 Unchecked greenhouse pollution threatens 

10 Americans' health and welfare by leading to long11 lasting changes in our climate with impacts that 

12 include increased ground-level ozone pollution, 

13 longer, more intense, and frequent heat waves, 

14 more intense precipitation events and storm 

15 surges, and exactly the opposite, less 

16 precipitation and more prolonged drought in the 

17 West, in the Southwest.

18 The nation's medical and public health 

19 professional organizations, the American Nurses 

20 Association, the American Medical Association, 

21 the American Pediatric Association, the American 

22 Public Health Association, all have come with the 
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1 alarm about the health implications to climate 

2 change. Each organization has issued statements 

3 and resolutions that could support the adoption 

4 of national policies that will reduce emissions 

5 of greenhouse gases.

6 If you know anything about any one of 

7 these organizations, policies do not come easy 

8 for them. They work very hard. There must be 

9 significant and sound science supporting any 

10 policies or statements that they make. For 

11 virtually all of our nation's health associations 

12 to have taken this stance, you have to ask why.

13 It's because nurses, physicians, and 

14 public health professionals understand the 

15 science that is telling us that unchecked 

16 greenhouse gas pollution threaten -- pollution 

17 threatens the health and welfare of our patients 

18 and the communities we serve, and because we are 

19 already seeing the results of this unchecked 

20 pollution in our office and areas of practice --

21 everybody in this room knows a nurse, has a nurse 

22 in their family. If I asked you to raise your 
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1 hands, I'm pretty sure that almost everyone's 

2 hand would go up. One in every 100 Americans is 

3 a nurse.

4 Ask any school nurse about his or her --

5 the children in his or her care about asthma, 

6 then how many have asthma.

7 When I was originally in nursing years 

8 ago, I very rarely saw a child with one of these. 

9 This is my personal one, by the way. I have 

10 adult onset asthma. Now if you go to a school 

11 nurse, you will have her pull her drawer open, 

12 and you will see a drawer-full of these for the 

13 various children that are in his or her care.

14 Ask a nurse what happens to those 

15 children on days when the air quality days are 

16 poor due to elevated ozone level. It is a 

17 disaster. Those children can't go out and play. 

18 It is a real mess.

19 An estimated 7 million children and over 

20 17 million adults in the United States have 

21 asthma. Asthma episodes keeps kids out of 

22 school, and they keep parents out of work, and 
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1 parents out of work because they have asthma and 

2 because they are home caring for their children. 

3 According to the CDC, the annual cost of asthma 

4 in the United States is around $56 billion.

5 Ask the pediatric nurse practitioner or 

6 an allergist about the increase in allergic 

7 conditions that they are treating. Carbon 

8 pollution can worsen asthma by driving climate 

9 change, rising temperatures, increased ozone and 

10 smog, and by increasing the production of 

11 airborne allergens like ragweed and pollen. The 

12 cost of this has been estimated at $21 billion a 

13 year.

14 Ask an emergency room nurse or a local 

15 public health department what happens in heat 

16 waves in their communities. In the summer of 

17 2011, over 140 million people in a 1-million18 square-mile area of this country were under heat 

19 advisories and warning. There were dozens of 

20 deaths during that time attributed to the heat.

21 Ask emergency responders: Are they 

22 prepared to deal with extreme weather events?
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1 As a Katrina first responder, I can tell 

2 you we are not prepared. We may never be 

3 prepared to respond to this to extreme --

4 MR. HARVEY: Your time has expired.

5 MS. AFZAL: May I say my last statement?

6 MR. HARVEY: Very quickly.

7 MS. AFZAL: We support -- the Alliance of 

8 Nurses for Healthy Environment support the 

9 Environmental Protection Agency's mission to 

10 protect public health, the environment, and we 

11 expect the EPA to move quickly to finalize these 

12 and implement some limits.

13 In addition, nurses across the country 

14 are watching our policy-makers, those who are in 

15 support of this and those who aren't, and we're 

16 paying attention.

17 Thank you.

18 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much for your 

19 statement.

20 All right. Our next pair of speakers are 

21 Katie Huffling and Andre Sauvageot.

22 MR. SAUVAGEOT: Andrew Sauvageot. I'm 
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1 here.

2 MR. HARVEY: Okay. Would you come up to 

3 the table, please?

4 For those of you who weren't here at the 

5 beginning, what we're doing is we're asking pairs 

6 of speakers to come up to the table. Please have 

7 a seat. I'm going to ask Ms. Huffling to go 

8 first. She will speak, and when she is done, 

9 then I will turn to Mr. Sauvageot and he will 

10 speak. Then if we have questions, we will ask 

11 those, and then we will ask you to both be seated 

12 again. So just stay there until we call you.

13 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: When you see the 

14 yellow light, that means there is 1 minute left.

15 MR. HARVEY: Right. Just to explain the 

16 light again, you have 5 minutes: 4 minutes 

17 green, 1 minute yellow, red means stop. And when 

18 it gets to red, I'm going to stop you, because 

19 it's not appropriate for other people in the room 

20 for you to go longer than your 5 minutes. So 

21 just be prepared for that.

22 If you both also before you start, if you 
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1 would spell your name for the court reporter, 

2 that will help her capture your name accurately.

3 So let's start with Ms. Huffling.

4 MS. HUFFLING: Okay. So Katie Huffling, 

5 K-A-T-I-E, H-U-F-F-L-I-N-G.

6 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

7 MS. HUFFLING: So good morning. Thank 

8 you for the opportunity to comment on this 

9 important issue. My name is Katie Huffling, and 

10 I'm here today representing the American College 

11 for Nurse-Midwives.

12 We would like to express our strong 

13 support for the standards to limit carbon 

14 emissions from new power plants.

15 As a nurse-midwife, my goal is to help 

16 women and families have the healthiest 

17 pregnancies and the healthiest babies possible. 

18 Unfortunately, air pollution and rising global 

19 temperatures are increasingly being shown to have 

20 significant impacts on the health of pregnant 

21 women and infants, two of our most vulnerable 

22 populations. As temperatures rise, we are likely 
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1 to see more frequent and severe heat waves, 

2 heavier rainstorms and flooding, and increased 

3 pollution, all of which present health challenges 

4 for vulnerable populations.

5 In the Baltimore and Washington, D.C., 

6 regions, we have some of the most polluted air in 

7 the country and some of the highest number of 

8 poor air quality days in which the smog levels 

9 are so high that even healthy adults may have 

10 difficulty breathing when they are outside.

11 I have seen firsthand how poor air 

12 quality days can have a significant effect on the 

13 health of pregnant women. Many times, my 

14 asthmatic patients would come into my office 

15 wheezing or reporting an increased use of their 

16 inhalers on poor air quality days, especially 

17 during the summer when you are more likely to 

18 have higher levels of air pollution. Having good 

19 control of asthma is an essential part of a 

20 healthy pregnancy, as the mother's breasts are 

21 that baby's only sources of oxygen.

22 We caution pregnant women to stay inside 
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1 on poor air quality days, as exposure to air 

2 pollution has been linked to poor pregnancy 

3 outcomes, such as low birth weight and 

4 exacerbation of asthma and lung irritation. 

5 However, most women can't put their live son hold 

6 when there is a poor air quality day. For many 

7 women, they have to go to work, school, their 

8 prenatal appointments, and especially in urban 

9 areas, many of them rely on public transportation 

10 where they may have to walk to their train of 

11 stand on busy roads waiting for their buses, 

12 breathing in an unacceptably high level of air 

13 pollution.

14 Air pollution and increased temperatures 

15 have also been associated with preterm birth. In 

16 a study of over 60,000 births in California, 

17 increased temperatures were found to be 

18 significantly associated with preterm birth, 

19 regardless of maternal age, education, maternal 

20 and ethnic/racial groups, or the sex of the 

21 infant.

22 Preterm birth can have a significant 
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1 health impact for these infants. These children 

2 face respiratory, neurological, and digestive 

3 problems soon after birth and may face 

4 developmental and learning issues throughout 

5 their childhood. These can cause a significant 

6 amount of suffering for both these children and 

7 their families. For children born prematurely, 

8 the health care costs over their first year of 

9 life is over 10 times the costs of an infant born 

10 at term.

11 Besides issues of prematurity and low 

12 birth weight, we are also seeing long-term 

13 changes in the lungs of children whose mothers 

14 were exposed to higher levels of air pollution 

15 when pregnant. These changes could lead to an 

16 increased risk of asthma and decreased lung 

17 function.

18 Children born to asthmatic mothers who 

19 are exposed to increased levels of air pollution 

20 during their pregnancy have an increased risk of 

21 wheezing and difficulty breathing at ozone levels 

22 at or near the current standards. Besides the 
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1 burden of treatment this places on our health 

2 care system, we also must take into account the 

3 financial burden placed on parents of asthmatic 

4 children through days lost of work and school as 

5 well as the emotional toll that this places on a 

6 family when they are managing a chronic disease 

7 in a child.

8 The EPA is mandated to protect the health 

9 of Americans. I ask the EPA to move quickly to 

10 finalize and implement limits on carbon emissions 

11 from new power plants, and then please take the 

12 next critical step and issue standards to reduce 

13 carbon emissions from existing power plants and 

14 other major sources of emissions. Clean air is 

15 vital to healthy women neighborhood healthy 

16 babies, and isn't that what all of us should be 

17 working for?

18 Thank you.

19 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

20 Mr. Sauvageot, please start by spelling 

21 your name.

22 MR. SAUVAGEOT: Yes. My name is Andre 
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1 Sauvageot, and it's spelled A as in Alpha-N, 

2 November-D, Delta-R, Romeo-E, Echo. S, Sierra-A3 U, Uniform-V, Victor- A-G, Golf-E, Echo-O, Oscar4 T, Tango.

5 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

6 MR. SAUVAGEOT: All right. I am a 

7 retired Army colonel, but I'm doing business now 

8 for two companies in Vietnam, but one of them is 

9 very relevant to the hearing today, because it is

10 I am a partner of the Interstate Travel Company, 

11 which has designed a magnet levitation, solar12 powered, hydrogen-fueled fast transport for 

13 interstate travel.

14 Unfortunately, we don't have a phototype 

15 physically up and running yet, but I'm hoping we 

16 will find the funding before long.

17 I'm here because I do support the 

18 President's goals for -- and EPA's goals for 

19 limiting these carbon emissions from new power 

20 plants, but I hope someday that they'll set 

21 limits for existing power plants just as well. 

22 But maybe we need a second term for President 
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1 Obama before we get to that.

2 Anyway, there is no scientifically 

3 rational reason or morally acceptable reason to 

4 not accept the scientific consensus on three 

5 counts.

6 One, global warming is a grave danger. 

7 Human activity does contribute to it, and the 

8 measures to reduce the kinds of pollution caused 

9 by human activity can reduce the effect, and they 

10 all well know.

11 Now, there's the near-to-medium-term 

12 dangers of global warming. I was going to start 

13 with human health, but I'm going to skip it, 

14 because you've covered that better. But the 

15 Union of Concerned Scientists, of which I'm a 

16 member, has supported everything you said and in 

17 great detail.

18 Then there's the effects on the economy. 

19 Senator Sanders had a hearing on 1 March that 

20 was really great, had people from the reinsurance 

21 industry that made it very clear that if we don't 

22 limit these emissions someday, the properties 
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1 that there are insurance companies that they 

2 reinsure won't be able -- they won't be able to 

3 cover it from private insurers, and so it will 

4 all be dumped. All the damage from severe storms 

5 will be dumped on the taxpayer and the individual 

6 victim. That's not acceptable.

7 Then there's, from my standpoint of over 

8 30 years of government service -- there's the 

9 national security aspects. The President's State 

10 of the Union Address made it very clear that the 

11 Department of Defense has committed to historic 

12 effort for renewable energy, clean energy.

13 Well, the U.S. Navy has to be realistic. 

14 They cannot ignore the realities of the melting 

15 ice caps, the expansion of blue water that they 

16 have to patrol, and also the fact that a lot of 

17 those blue waters that they have to cover now is 

18 rich in mineral resources, thumping an 

19 international race to plant other countries' 

20 flags in other countries' extended economic 

21 zones.

22 So they have to cover that, and the 
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1 Secretary of the Navy has been very clear on this 

2 in many forms, and he said that primarily they're 

3 interested in energy security, even more than 

4 saving money, but they can save money too. He 

5 cited a specific example of a ship with a hybrid 

6 drive, one ship that saved $2 million on its 

7 initial voyage. Over the life of the ship, that 

8 would be a quarter of a million dollars at 

9 today's oil prices. So you can't ignore realism 

10 there.

11 And on 8 February 2012, the Department of 

12 Defense held a Clean Defense Summit right here in 

13 Washington, and my company, the Interstate 

14 Traveler Company, was proud to be one of the 

15 sponsors along with Lockheed Martin and other 

16 companies.

17 Now, the long-term threat, though, let's 

18 face it, is existential. Why? Because poor 

19 stewardship of the environment has already cost 

20 the human race dearly, and its protraction with 

21 concomitant -- with the sea levels continuing to 

22 rise will flood coastal cities, and not only like 
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1 in our west and east but also in countries that 

2 I'm familiar with, like Jakarta in Indonesia and 

3 Hanoi where I work a lot, and they're under 

4 water. That's why these countries care about 

5 this.

6 So we believe that, you know, our product 

7 can help with this. Our founder and managing 

8 partner, Justin Sutton, has designed a high-speed 

9 magnetic levitation, and we dub it "high rail." 

10 High rail, which would be solar-powered, 

11 hydrogen-fueled, and able to transport 

12 passengers, interstate.

13 But, unfortunately, I mean, we don't have 

14 the funding, as I said, to build a physical 

15 prototype yet, but I hope we can do it soon in 

16 Michigan. And we'll find it maybe in Virginia, 

17 and then once we get a funding for the prototype, 

18 State governments can get interested in this and 

19 report to the Federal Government, Department of 

20 Transportation, Ray LaHood and his Under 

21 Secretary, Polly Trottenberg, for policy, and 

22 they're going to be gung ho about this, I 
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1 believe. And we can afford -- we can forge 

2 public-private partnerships to finance a cross3 country system, and then foreign countries, one 

4 which I represent in Vietnam, can bring people 

5 over.

6 MR. HARVEY: Mr. Sauvageot, your time has 

7 expired.

8 MR. SAUVAGEOT: Anyway, that's basically 

9 it, but I'd like to see it start up in Virginia.

10 MR. HARVEY: Great. Thank you very much, 

11 both of you.

12 All right. We'll go on to our next set 

13 of speakers: Jackie Ward and Kristin Cook.

14 Can you introduce yourself?

15 MS. WARD: I'm Jackie Ward.

16 MR. HARVEY: Jackie Ward.

17 So do we have Kristin Cook?

18 MS. COOK: Yes.

19 MR. HARVEY: Please have a seat.

20 So, again, if you're new to the room, 

21 we're doing these in pairs. We ask that you stay 

22 here while the other person speaks, and then 
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1 we'll let you both go back.

2 So we'll start off with Jackie Ward, and 

3 you have 5 minutes. When you're ready, we'll get 

4 started.

5 MS. WARD: Good morning. I too am in 

6 support of the EPA's proposed regulations 

7 regarding carbon emissions, but what I would like 

8 to talk about is my community.

9 I live not too far from here in Ward 8, 

10 and I would like to speak about the effect of 

11 pollution on our community.

12 We do not have what one would call an 

13 industrial base, but yet still -- and the only 

14 claim so far is we have Joint Air Force Base at 

15 Bolling and soon Homeland Security, but, more 

16 importantly, right across the river in 

17 Alexandria, we have a power plant that is causing 

18 us a lot of misery.

19 To the effect today that most of our 

20 children are born with respiratory diseases in 

21 our ward, our children suffer terribly. That's 

22 something that will -- that's generational in our 
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1 ward.

2 Today, we are also seeing adults like 

3 myself, who are just getting to be on the onset 

4 of crossing over into elderly or upper middle age 

5 or high middle age or whatever you may call it, 

6 are now dealing with respiratory diseases 

7 themselves, people who have previously not had a 

8 problem with asthma as a child. This is 

9 unconscionable, and we not only demand, I demand 

10 for myself and my community the right to live in 

11 a life which with no pollution, clean energy.

12 And that's all I have to say.

13 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

14 MS. COOK: Hi. Good morning. My name is 

15 Kristin Cook, and I am a resident of Maryland and 

16 mother of three and part-time environmental 

17 activist. Thank you for allowing me to speak 

18 today.

19 I've been concerned about emissions, 

20 carbon emissions and how it relates to climate 

21 warming -- or "disruption" is the term nowadays -

22 - for years now, but never in my worst nightmares 
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1 did I think that the extreme weather changes that 

2 scientists would predict would be happening so 

3 soon. I would have never imagined that it was at 

4 my front door here, now unfolding in front of my 

5 10-year-old's eyes, much to our horror.

6 Since 2006, weather-related disasters 

7 have been declared in every U.S. State except for 

8 South Carolina. During this period, weather9 related disasters affected every county in 18 

10 States, including my Maryland.

11 In the last 3 years, I've witnessed first 

12 the North American Blizzard of 2009, Category 2, 

13 produced a record 24-hour snowfall in Washington, 

14 D.C., and nearly 2 feet of accumulated snow. 

15 That storm broke the record for the amount of 

16 snow in a single December event.

17 The next year, a series of storms in 

18 2010, which annihilated our area, starting on 

19 February 5th, the first of three severe storms, 

20 aptly named "Snowmageddon," Category 6, brought 

21 historical snowfall totals in every single one of 

22 the Mid-Atlantic States and brought deaths in 
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1 Mexico, New Mexico, Virginia, and Maryland.

2 Only 3 days later, we got hit with 

3 another blizzard, which brought 10 to 12 inches 

4 of snow across a wide swath of Washington to New 

5 York City, and because this storm affected some 

6 of the same areas that received the historic 

7 snowfalls from Snowmageddon, it only exacerbated 

8 the clean-up process, for the city is still being 

9 paralyzed by the last one.

10 Then later that month, February 25th to 

11 27th, a third severe storm of the month, also 

12 known as "Snowicane" to some, was a winter storm 

13 and severe weather event that occurred in the 

14 Mid-Atlantic and New England States. The storm 

15 brought flooding rains to coastal sections of New 

16 England and some areas, expansing as much as 4 

17 inches. Aside from precipitation, it also 

18 brought hurricane-force winds.

19 Come 2011 and we have the fourth warmest 

20 winter on record with the U.S., with virtually no 

21 snow, which was the third least snowy winter on 

22 record for the contiguous U.S., and a spring 
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1 which began seeing flowers bloom in late January 

2 and early February.

3 And all of this pales in comparison to 

4 the extreme destructive weather that some other 

5 parts of the country have experienced in recent 

6 years.

7 But in the fall, if that wasn't enough to 

8 set new standards for carbon pollution, there's a 

9 dozen other indisputable ways that carbon 

10 pollution affects our everyday lives, such as 

11 asthma and respiratory illnesses, indisputable.

12 But on this high note, I'm proud to note 

13 that the State of Maryland is working towards 

14 building clean energy sources.

15 In closing, we need our planet a lot more 

16 than it needs us. So let's take care of it. 

17 Thank you.

18 MR. HARVEY: Thank you both for taking 

19 the time to come testify for us.

20 Our next pair of speakers, again, please 

21 both come up and sit at the table. Tyler Pidgeon 

22 and Herschel Pecker.
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1 Mr. Pidgeon, you will go first, and if 

2 you could start by spelling your name, and then 

3 we'll begin the clock.

4 MR. PIDGEON: Okay. So my name is Tyler 

5 Pidgeon. It's T-Y-L-E-R, P-I-D-G-E-O-N.

6 MR. HARVEY: Okay. You can begin.

7 MR. PIDGEON: Good morning. My name is 

8 Tyler Pidgeon, and I'm from Enfield, New 

9 Hampshire.

10 I'm currently a student at St. Lawrence 

11 University in Update New York studying 

12 environmental studies and biology.

13 Growing up in a rural town allowed me to 

14 truly appreciate the beauty of the Northeast and 

15 the rolling mountains to the forests to the 

16 peaceful streams and rivers and all the wildlife 

17 for them. Going to school in the north country 

18 has also closely connected me to the Adirondack 

19 region, which is still recovering from acid 

20 deposition caused by coal-fired power plant 

21 emissions in the Midwest.

22 I strongly support the EPA's proposed 
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1 standards for carbon pollution for new power 

2 plants in order to protect these areas which I 

3 have come to call home. I want our elected 

4 officials to protect and preserve our 

5 environment, so that we as well as future 

6 generations can enjoy the benefits and 

7 recreational opportunities a healthy ecosystem 

8 provides.

9 Just one example, the native yet rare 

10 Pink Lady Slipper, New Hampshire's official State 

11 wildflower, is already threatened by habitat 

12 loss, and I would hate to see the impacts of 

13 global warming further reduce the numbers of this 

14 beautiful and symbolic member of the orchid 

15 family.

16 In addition to protecting both the flora 

17 and fauna through the proposed carbon pollution 

18 standard, I want my own health and the health of 

19 others to be protected.

20 My brother and I both suffer from asthma. 

21 So reducing air pollution is not merely driven 

22 by our morals but by our own health and safety.
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1 Last summer, I visited Nairobi, Kenya, 

2 and experienced extremely poor air quality from 

3 lapsed air pollution standards. My first and 

4 only attempt to go for a run ended very abruptly, 

5 because my airways constricted making it 

6 extremely difficult to inhale even a single 

7 breath after the use of my inhaler.

8 My uncontrollable struggle to breathe 

9 felt as though my airways had become a coffee 

10 stirrer, requiring me to make multiple breaks 

11 just merely walking back to our compound. Such 

12 discomfort and difficulty to perform one of our 

13 most vital and voluntary functions from 

14 preventable exposure to air pollutants should 

15 never be experienced by anyone, especially within 

16 our own borders.

17 I strongly urge the agency to quickly 

18 finalize these standards and to develop 

19 additional standards for existing power plants to 

20 safe guard the health of the public and the 

21 natural world.

22 Thank you.
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1 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

2 Mr. Pecker.

3 MR. PECKER: My name is Herschel Pecker, 

4 H-E-R-S-C-H-E-L. Last name Pecker, P-E-C-K-E-R.

5 Good morning, my name is Herschel Pecker. 

6 I work for the National Wildlife Federation, and

7 I'm here on behalf of our 47,000 supporters who 

8 submitted comments online to the EPA in support 

9 of limits to carbon pollution from coal-fired 

10 power plants.

11 The National Wildlife Federation and our 

12 supporters who submitted comments to the EPA are 

13 in support of limits to carbon pollution from 

14 power plants, because climate change is the 

15 number-one threat to wildlife today.

16 In the lifetime of a child born today, 20 

17 to 30 percent of the plant and animal species 

18 will be on the brink of extinction because of 

19 global warming. Polar bears are particularly 

20 vulnerable species for which the impacts on 

21 global warming are quite evident and alarming to 

22 the National Wildlife Federation supporters.
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1 As climate change melts the sea ice, the 

2 U.S. Geological Survey projects that two-thirds 

3 of polar bears will disappear by the year 2050. 

4 This dramatic decline in polar bear population is 

5 occurring in our lifetime, which is a minuscule 

6 faction of the time polar bears have roamed the 

7 vast Arctic seas.

8 Last year in 2011, the sea ice melted 

9 especially rapidly. Arctic Sea ice extent for 

10 January 2011 was the lowest in satellite record 

11 for that month. A female polar bear reported 

12 swam for 9 days nonstop across the Beaufort Sea 

13 before reaching an ice flow, costing her 22 

14 percent of her weight and her cub. These 

15 struggles are only worsening for Arctic wildlife 

16 whose habitats are quickly altering.

17 In southern portions of their range, like 

18 Hudson Bay, Canada, there is no sea ice during 

19 the summer, and the polar bears must live on land

20 until the bay freezes in the fall, whereupon they 

21 can again hunt on ice. While on land during the 

22 summer, these bears eat little or nothing. In 
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1 the past 20 years, the ice-free period in Hudson 

2 Bay has increased by an average of 20 days, 

3 cutting seal hunting season short by nearly 3 

4 weeks.

5 Exacerbating the problem of the loss of 

6 hunting areas, the shrinking polar ice cap will 

7 also likely cause a decline in polar bear's prey, 

8 their seals.

9 Wildlife are struggling beyond the Arctic 

10 as well. The changing climate and associated 

11 extreme weather events are altering wildlife 

12 habitat and harming species across the country, 

13 including western pica, waterfowl, coldwater 

14 fish, salmon, lizards, moose, and songbirds. The 

15 list goes on and on.

16 National Wildlife Federation supporters 

17 from States across the country are in D.C. and 

18 Chicago to testify today, and they're sharing 

19 their firsthand accounts of the changes in 

20 waterfowl migration, the decline in fish 

21 populations that depend on cold streams, and the 

22 changes to the forests and waters where you can 
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1 go to find wildlife, reconnect with nature, and 

2 pass on the love of wildlife and the outdoors to 

3 the next generation.

4 National Wildlife Federation supporters 

5 strongly support limits on carbon pollution 

6 causing global warming, because we want wildlife 

7 to survive for the next generation. Along with 

8 our supporters, I strongly urge the Environmental 

9 Protection Agency's proposed first-ever national 

10 carbon pollution limits for new power plant 

11 smokestacks and ask that the EPA continue to work 

12 on limits to existing power plants and other 

13 sources of pollution that cause global warming.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. HARVEY: Thank you both.

16 All right. Our next pair of speakers, 

17 Mitchel Stout and Michael Greenberg.

18 MR. STOUT: Good morning.

19 MR. HARVEY: Good morning. Are you Mr. 

20 Stout?

21 MR. STOUT: Yes.

22 MR. HARVEY: Okay. If you could start 
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1 just by spelling your name briefly, and then 

2 we'll begin.

3 MR. STOUT: Okay. My name is Mitchel 

4 Stout.

5 Ready?

6 My reason for supporting the EPA's 

7 proposed carbon standards stems from a concern 

8 for my son Austin, who is 12, and the global 

9 environment that we are going to leave him as 

10 adults.

11 My whole family is vegan. Now, you 

12 wonder why am I saying this. Well, we committed 

13 to that, for one reason in particular, because we 

14 feel that many of the carbon emissions that come 

15 from methane, for example, and the CO2 that comes 

16 out of the transportation of animals is a cause 

17 of global warming, and I'm very proud those who 

18 lower chicken, extra cheese in hamburgers, et 

19 cetera.

20 What I'm saying is that -- the reason I 

21 am bringing this up is the children can only do 

22 so much. I'm very proud of many of the kids I've 
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1 seen who have created environmental groups at 

2 their schools, who have built solar panels for 

3 their trailers at their schools and have put 

4 aside their video games to go attend evening 

5 meetings at the Sierra Club where we have 

6 activist nights. There is only so much that they 

7 can do.

8 So that's why I am here, to help all of 

9 us face the big challenges, the grownup 

10 challenges that are one -- this is one way -- for 

11 example, the reduced standards for carbon 

12 emissions, and I think it's important to make the 

13 painful choices like these.

14 That's why I'm here to urge the EPA to 

15 implement the new carbon standards for the sake 

16 of my son's health and future and that of other 

17 young Americans who have to live in the world 

18 that we are leaving them.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

21 Our next speaker is Michael Greenberg.

22 MR. GREENBERG: Hello. Thank you for 
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1 having me. My name is Michael Greenberg. I am a 

2 senior at the Charles E. Smith Jewish Day School 

3 and a rising freshman at Washington University in 

4 St. Louis, and I am also the founder of Tar Sands 

5 Students, which is a coalition of 25 high school 

6 environmental communities which works to protect 

7 the climate by lobbying against the Keystone XL 

8 Pipeline, but I'm here representing just myself.

9 So I came to this hearing because the 

10 human experience is threatened. If climate 

11 change goes unchecked, an overwhelming majority 

12 of the world's population will life reduced to a 

13 painful journey of suffering, oppression, 

14 poverty, disease, and hopelessness.

15 Take for example the segment of the 

16 world's population that relies on glacial water 

17 for farming. As glaciers continue to disappear, 

18 more people are finding that they do not have 

19 enough water to sustain themselves, or consider 

20 the hundreds of millions of people who live in 

21 coastal areas that are only a few inches of feed 

22 above sea level. These people too will be forced 
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1 to flee their homes if the climate does not get 

2 stabilized.

3 These are just two examples out of many 

4 of ways in which human prosperity will diminish 

5 as climate change increases. What is most 

6 unfair, of course, is that the country suffering 

7 the most from climate change are the ones that 

8 have done almost nothing to cause it. The United 

9 States should see how unjust the situation is and 

10 make significant carbon dioxide emissions 

11 reductions in order to remedy the situation.

12 The most disturbing thing -- and that's 

13 one of the main reasons for why I'm here -- is 

14 that I believe that the climate will soon reach a 

15 tipping point. Specifically, there is this thing 

16 called "climate feedback loops," which are 

17 essentially ways that climate change perpetuates 

18 itself after humans have had an impact.

19 So, for example, with permafrost, climate 

20 change causes permafrost to melt, which causes a 

21 release in greenhouse gases, specifically 

22 methane, which causes further climate change, 
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1 further melting of permafrost, further release of 

2 greenhouse gases, et cetera, or another example 

3 is that as the climate warms, there's more water 

4 vapor in the atmosphere, which causes the earth 

5 to be able to absorb more heat. 

6 So at a certain point -- and that point 

7 is quite close -- there will be probably nothing 

8 that we can do to save the world from climate 

9 change.

10 So we have now reached a fork in the 

11 road. Years from now, this period will either be 

12 seen as a time of turbulence and proceeded an era 

13 of health, prosperity, and peace, or this time 

14 will be seen as the sad beginning of endless war, 

15 poverty, hunger, pollution, and despair. I hope 

16 that the EPA can make the right choice.

17 Thank you.

18 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much, both of 

19 you, for your testimony.

20 MR. STOUT: Thank you for your time.

21 MR. HARVEY: Okay. It appears that we 

22 have no people waiting to speak at this point, so 
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1 we will -- oh. Let me suggest that rather than 

2 me arranging this that you talk to Alan Rush who 

3 is in the back or our folks in the other room, 

4 because they're sort of controlling the flow.

5 ATTENDEE: [Speaking off mic.]

6 MR. HARVEY: Okay. I'm happy to do --

7 just sort of -- I'm sort of taking the names as I 

8 get them. So I just rely on them to tell me 

9 who's next.

10 ATTENDEE: There's no one out there right 

11 now.

12 MR. HARVEY: Okay. So these folks said 

13 that they asked to speak earlier, but --

14 ATTENDEE: Yeah. I was supposed to speak 

15 earlier, but I wasn't able to get here.

16 [Simultaneous speaking.]

17 MR. HARVEY: Yeah, so we have time. 

18 Yeah. Why don't we take the two of you, and

19 we'll just -- so please have a seat, both of you, 

20 and --

21 ATTENDEES: [Speaking off mic.]

22 MR. HARVEY: Great. So sorry about the 
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1 confusion, and I'm glad that we could do this.

2 Mr. Cunningham, if you could start first, 

3 and, again, if you could just -- I'm not sure if 

4 the reporter got your name earlier.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Okay. Bill Cunningham. 

6 First name, B-i-l-l; last name, C-u-n-n-i-n-g-h7 a-m.

8 MR. HARVEY: You can begin when you're 

9 ready.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you. 

11 I am representing Unions for Jobs in the 

12 Environment, UJ for short, an organization of 14 

13 unions representing more than 3.2 million workers 

14 in the electric -- in the energy industries.

15 UJ is involved in both domestic and 

16 international discussion on climate change and 

17 recognized as an NGO by the UN. UJ members have 

18 carefully followed the development of the 

19 technology that can be applied to coal-fired 

20 power plants, including the development of carbon 

21 capture and storage.

22 CCS shows great promise but has not 
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1 reached the stage of demonstration at a 

2 commercial scale. One of the most advanced 

3 efforts was the pilot at the AEP Mountaineer 

4 Plant in West Virginia, which closed down because 

5 of the failure of State regulators to improve 

6 cost recovery.

7 UJ believes that the use of coal and the 

8 ability to build new, more efficient plans is 

9 vital to the economic future and security of the 

10 United States. The electric power industry has 

11 been built on the basis of not putting all of 

12 your eggs in one basket. At the cost -- as the 

13 cost and availability of one of the fuels 

14 changes, others are available to help lessen the 

15 impact on consumers. Coal has shown the least 

16 cost variability and the most reliable 

17 availability over time.

18 Planning for power plants takes place 

19 over several decades, and it is important not to 

20 base future energy policy on the hope that 

21 natural gas prices will stay low.

22 The uses of natural gas are expected to 
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1 expand into transportation and into LNG export 

2 market which will tighten the supply. Automobile 

3 engines can be converted to natural gas use, a 

4 course of action that will be supported by State 

5 and local governments that are under pressure to 

6 reduce emissions from the growing number of 

7 automobiles on the report.

8 Export in natural gas can also tighten 

9 supplies and raise prices. Currently, gas10 producing companies are planning to convert 

11 import terminals to export and to build new 

12 export facilities. Given the possibility for 

13 natural gas use in transportation and the 

14 potential for export due to the much higher 

15 natural gas prices in Asia and Europe, it is easy 

16 to see the likelihood for higher and more 

17 volatile natural gas prices in the future. A 

18 substantial rise in the price of natural gas will 

19 increase the competitiveness of coal, a factor 

20 that power companies should be able to act on to 

21 keep electricity prices affordable and reliable.

22 Natural gas is part of the fuel mix, but 
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1 it is not a fuel to favor based upon decisions 

2 about the carbon dioxide emissions and global 

3 warming. The first warning about the carbon 

4 dioxide-equivalent emissions from natural gas 

5 production and use came from Robert Howarth, a 

6 professor at Cornell who wrote that electric 

7 generation based on natural gas from shale can do 

8 more to aggregate global warming than coal-based 

9 generation. The problem he pointed out is the 

10 accompanying release of methane during drilling, 

11 fracturing, a transportation. A ton of methane 

12 has the carbon dioxide equivalent many times that 

13 of a ton of carbon dioxide.

14 Tom Wigley at the National Center for 

15 Atmospheric Research found that relying more on 

16 natural gas would reduce emissions of carbon 

17 dioxide, but it would do little to help solve the 

18 climate problem. It would just be making a 

19 difference around the edges.

20 In our view, the EPA-proposed new source 

21 standard would entirely rule out the construction 

22 of new coal plants, regardless of the price of 
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1 competing fuels and cost effectiveness of 

2 generating electricity with coal. The problem is 

3 that EPA assumes CCS would be available, an 

4 assumption that is unwarranted given the shutdown 

5 of the Mountaineer CCS pilot plant. The prospect 

6 of budget cuts for energy technology programs and 

7 the inability to pass plant change legislation 

8 such as Waxman-Markey or another mechanism would 

9 set a price for carbon and foster the 

10 construction of CCS facilities.

11 An important consideration is the 

12 negotiating process at the UN. The current 

13 agreement at the UN is that a new treaty be 

14 negotiated by 2015 that would go into effect in 

15 2020. A new treaty would include major 

16 developing countries as well as industrial 

17 countries, which addresses a major problem 

18 preventing acceptance of the protocol in the U.S.

19 Greater coverage by the treaty would make 

20 offsets available that could be as little as $10 

21 compared to the $70 per ton or greater cost of 

22 CCS.
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1 EPA's proposed NSPS rules out loophole 

2 power plant construction, because it assumes the 

3 CCS would be economically available for the 

4 construction of new power plants.

5 To ensure an affordable and reliable 

6 energy supply and to make possible the 

7 construction of new, more efficient coal plans 

8 will require EPA to re-propose the rule with 

9 separate standards for coal steam units and 

10 natural gas combined cycle units. This would be 

11 in conformity with all other rules that EPA has 

12 proposed to regulate emissions from new sources 

13 under the Clean Air Act.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

16 And our next speaker, could you introduce 

17 yourself again, please?

18 MS. FULTON: Oh, yes. My name is Kari 

19 Fulton. It's spelled K-A-R-I. Last name, 

20 Fulton, F as in Frank-U-L-T-O-N as in Nancy. I 

21 am the Interim Director of the Environmental 

22 Justice and Climate Change Initiative.
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1 This is a very big day. I would like to 

2 say that. This carbon rule is a big small step 

3 for the United States of America.

4 As the largest emitter of greenhouse gas 

5 emissions in the world, it is very important that 

6 we do take the necessary steps to reduce our 

7 greenhouse gas emissions. It's already stated 

8 that it does create pollutants, and for the 

9 communities that we serve, we see this firsthand.

10 We are excited about the closing of long11 term coal-fired power plants, like the Crawford 

12 coal-fired power plant in Chicago, because when I 

13 go and visit in Chicago, I meet with people. And 

14 one of those people is Daniella, and she is a 

15 young mother. And one of the things that she 

16 told me is that in her community of Little 

17 Village, there were 41 premature deaths caused by 

18 the Crawford coal-fired power plant. So the idea 

19 of reducing the emissions from these carbon --

20 from these coal plants, especially from new 

21 sources, is important. However, we must not 

22 forget that there are many, many more that are 
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1 already existing, and these regulations won't do 

2 anything to address the emissions from the 

3 already-existing coal-fired power plants.

4 Seventy-eight percent of African 

5 Americans live within 30 miles of a coal-fired 

6 power plant. Fifty-eight percent of non-Hispanic 

7 whites live within 30 miles of a coal-fired power 

8 plant. That means that there is a large majority 

9 of America that lives near a coal-fired power 

10 plant, an already existing coal-fired power 

11 plant.

12 So although this is a big small step, it 

13 is still a very small step, and we encourage that 

14 we take this necessary step, so that we can 

15 create even more steps, so that we can reduce our 

16 greenhouse gas emissions and we can secure our 

17 futures.

18 By 2050, I'll be 64 years old. I want to 

19 see a future where we don't have to rely on coal; 

20 however, I also want to see a future that is not 

21 jeopardized by natural gas and fracking. I also 

22 want to see a future where carbon capture and 
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1 sequestration doesn't allow for increase in acid 

2 in our water and in our ocean streams, and these 

3 are important issues that we have to look at.

4 So I do encourage the EPA to make these 

5 big small steps, but proceed with caution, and to 

6 also, instead of going for more fossil fuels, 

7 going and continuing to build fossil fuels out 

8 the ground, that we think of how we can regulate 

9 our existing coal-fired power plants, regulate 

10 our other forms of fossil fuels, and move into 

11 more renewable energy technologies that are 

12 actually available and are better for our health 

13 and for our communities.

14 We also want to make sure that we don't 

15 create hot spots. Although it's exciting that so 

16 many coal-fired power plants are closing down and 

17 that this policy may lead to regulations for 

18 existing coal-fired power plants, we want to make 

19 sure that communities that live in the fence and 

20 front lines of existing coal-fired power plants 

21 are not burdened by more pollution because of 

22 these regulations.
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1 So thank you for your time. Thank you 

2 for the work that you do, and I hope that you 

3 consider these comments in the work.

4 MR. HARVEY: Thank you both very much.

5 Our next pair of speakers, when I call 

6 you, please come up to the front table: Tanya 

7 Roland and Ellis James.

8 So I'll ask Ms. Roland to go first. 

9 After you introduce yourself, you'll have 5 

10 minutes, and pay attention to the colors of the 

11 clock. We will cut you off at 5 minutes.

12 MS. ROLAND: Thanks so much for letting 

13 us come here and speak regarding new power plant 

14 emissions. My name is Tanya Roland. I was born 

15 in the District, grew up in Arlington, and live 

16 in Falls Church currently.

17 I am not a specialist or any sort of 

18 expert in the fields being discussed today, so I 

19 apologize up front for my lack of knowledge. I 

20 am merely a profoundly concerned member of 

21 humanity.

22 When I was preparing this statement, I 
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1 was just floored to learn that the power industry 

2 has had zero regulation for carbon emissions to 

3 date, and, you know, are you kidding me? And 

4 this, the number-one carbon-polluting industry. 

5 I mean, that really explains a lot, actually.

6 And, you know, it doesn't take rocket 

7 science to understand and appreciate that we 

8 can't thrive, much less survive, while poisoning 

9 our air. Humans, animals, flora, all living 

10 things share the same building blocks of nature, 

11 earth, water, air, fire, space. All living 

12 things like the elements are interconnected and 

13 interdependent. This is easy to see. We 

14 desperately need a paradigm shift from systems 

15 that don't fundamentally proceed these building 

16 blocks of life, like toxin-spewing power plants, 

17 for example, to ones that do.

18 We need to move from a view that we're 

19 better than nature to the realization that we are 

20 nature. This is wisdom in action. It's common 

21 sense. Any child can understand this. If our 

22 arrogance and ignorance keep us from this 
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1 realization, then things will undoubtedly get 

2 very rough. The current paradigm has no wisdom.

3 Wisdom would best eliminate toxic 

4 concentrations of pollutants at their sources and 

5 at least merit regular moratoria on dubious 

6 practices that can threaten our air, water, and 

7 soil.

8 Those who desperately cling to the status 

9 quo addiction to fossil fuels argue that it isn't 

10 government's role to choose winners, and yet we 

11 all know that laws and regulations are created to 

12 support some chosen industry issue, activity, for 

13 someone's benefit, and this is a good thing. The 

14 entire industrial revolution was able to manifest 

15 because the industries of coal, electricity, gas, 

16 steel, et cetera, were at some point given broad 

17 support.

18 And one of the beauties of our government 

19 is that we can change course when it becomes 

20 self-evident that old practices cannot and do not 

21 apply to current circumstance. The fossil fuel 

22 paradigm as-is has run its course.
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1 One role of the government is to have 

2 laws that protect us from substances and 

3 practices that induce harm. The need to hold an 

4 industry accountable for poisoning the purity of 

5 the element and dramatically limiting their 

6 ability to do so in the first place is 

7 straightforward and, again, self-evident, yet our 

8 culture has been literally railroaded into 

9 letting these industries steer the ship and 

10 remain unaccountable for far too long.

11 I have no problem whatsoever with our 

12 rights to make profit; however, allowing power 

13 plants to gush toxic particles forces everyone to 

14 ingest them. These substances also absorb into 

15 soil and water. No living thing is safe from 

16 them.

17 By not restricting them, much less 

18 eliminating them, not only is everyone literally 

19 drinking the Kool-Aid, but, in essence, the 

20 government is dishing it out.

21 If we continue to force a narrow view 

22 that restricts unabated nature's wealth, she gets 
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1 weak, ill, and we right there with her, and 

2 systems collapse and die.

3 Civilizations throughout history have 

4 collapsed. Overuse, depletion of resources, 

5 these are primary common factors. Our modern 

6 contribution to this historical formula are toxic 

7 poisons and deadly efficiency. Are we so arrogant 

8 to believe that we're somehow magically immune? 

9 Energy, health and medicine, agriculture,

10 economy, these are also interdependent and 

11 interconnected. If we examined and implemented 

12 these industries and practices from a baseline of 

13 ecological protection, it would be so easy to 

14 solve so many of these problems we face.

15 It goes without saying, I totally support 

16 strict standards for new power plant emissions, 

17 and absolutely emissions at existing power plants 

18 need to be dramatically regulated and reduced.

19 Our legal system uses standards of proof 

20 called "reasonable doubt." While there is more 

21 than enough reasonable doubt as to the dangers of 

22 fossil fuels, widespread chemical use, nuclear 
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1 waste, nanoparticles, genetically altered 

2 products, and other potentially dangerous and 

3 deadly human-made substances, we blithely allow 

4 them into the ecology, into our bodies, without 

5 making companies prove outright their safety on a 

6 long-term basis beforehand.

7 MR. HARVEY: Ms. Roland, your time has 

8 exposed.

9 MS. ROLAND: One more sentence.

10 To me, this is not summarily unwise but 

11 suicidal. If we don't turn the ship with 

12 everyone on board, fasten your seat belts. It's 

13 going to be a bumpy night.

14 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much. Thank 

15 you very much.

16 Our next speaker is Ellis James.

17 MR. JAMES: Yes. My name is Ellis W. 

18 James. I'm a proud member of the Sierra Club, 

19 but I also happen to be a Norfolk environmental 

20 commissioner from my city, and I am appalled by 

21 the fact that the power plants still have no 

22 regulations whatsoever. And I think this is 
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1 doing a great deal of harm across the country, 

2 but I'm going to be a little more power plant 

3 specific.

4 We in Hampton Roads are now confronted 

5 with the possibility of a new coal-fired power 

6 plant being built in Dendron, Surry County.

7 Now, my city, Norfolk, happens to be 63 

8 miles downwind of that power plant proposal. 

9 These new regulations are extremely important, so 

10 that we can bring to the table honestly the 

11 people who are proposing this plant. They have 

12 in the past rejected commitment to the new 

13 technology and to the emissions control 

14 technology that is so much needed in this 

15 industry, and because they have refused to commit 

16 to that, many people in Hampton Roads and in the 

17 eastern part of Virginia are extremely upset with 

18 their arrogant attitude.

19 I mean no disrespect to the individuals. 

20 They are very nice people. I have met some of 

21 them, and I have been to some of the hearings, 

22 but the fact of the matter is that these people 
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1 just to the west of my city, about 59 to 63 

2 miles, are going to subject us to the pollutants 

3 that we are so much in support of EPA now 

4 regulating in a reasonable fashion and effective 

5 fashion with the new regs for the new plants.

6 The fact of the matter is that the health 

7 risks, the economic risks for those of us in 

8 Southside, Hampton Roads, are tremendous. Think 

9 about it: pollution raining down, more mercury 

10 on our children and our grandchildren that we had 

11 hoped to be able to hand off the baton to and a 

12 clean world and clean air especially.

13 Hampton Roads has just been dragged into 

14 the equation of having attainment within the EPA 

15 regulations that do exist. The building of this 

16 power plant raises in our minds and our concerns 

17 the possibility of thrusting us back into 

18 nonattainment. That makes no sense. That is 

19 absolutely antithetical to the objectives and the 

20 mission of EPA, which we the citizens who have 

21 traveled here today to speak to, we still have 

22 faith that EPA is committed to its mission of 
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1 providing clean air and clean water to our 

2 citizens.

3 I'm a young fellow. I'm not going to be 

4 here when all of this finally takes place, but I 

5 want to hand off to our children and our 

6 grandchildren a clean air to breathe and clean 

7 water to drink, and we're talking about all of 

8 the above.

9 I hope and pray that EPA will not back 

10 down, and I can assure you from speaking to 

11 groups, including the Hampton Roads Planning 

12 District Commission in Hampton Roads -- I go and 

13 take advantage of public comment periods, and 

14 speaking to those 17 mayors, city managers, and 

15 representatives who are council members about 

16 this issue, the emissions issue, I can assure you 

17 that the numbers of people who come to me -- and 

18 I'm not even an elected official. They come to 

19 me and say, "Ellis, that is exactly -- you hit it 

20 right on the money. That is exactly what we need 

21 to do. Stop them from badgering and fighting the 

22 EPA, and let them get these regulations in place, 
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1 so that we can actually breathe the clean air and 

2 drink the clean water."

3 Thank you very much.

4 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much. Very 

5 clear.

6 Questions?

7 [No response.]

8 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

9 Our next speakers, Joe Cook and Steven 

10 Heinitz, and I apologize to everyone whose names 

11 I am mispronouncing.

12 So, Mr. Cook? Are you Mr. Cook?

13 MR. COOK: Sure. Yeah.

14 MR. HARVEY: Okay, great.

15 We have Steven Heinitz here? Steven 

16 Heinitz?

17 [No response.]

18 MR. HARVEY: All right. I am going to 

19 exercise my prerogative and move on to the next 

20 person then. Scott Segal, are you here?

21 MR. SEGAL: Yeah. Sure.

22 MR. HARVEY: All right. We're going to 
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1 advance you since Mr. Heinitz is not here, and 

2 I'm going to ask Mr. Cook to go first and Mr. 

3 Segal to go second.

4 So when you're ready, we'll start the 

5 timer.

6 MR. COOK: Okay. My name is Joe Cook, 

7 and I live at 1147 Surry Crescent in Norfolk, 

8 Virginia. I am a member of the Sierra Club. I 

9 am the chair of the Clean Air Group in Norfolk, 

10 the Chesapeake Bay Group, and I come today to 

11 strongly speak in favor of the EPA's long overdue 

12 new source performance standards on carbon 

13 pollution limits for new power plants.

14 I live in a city already experiencing the 

15 effects of carbon pollution, the main contributor 

16 to climate destruction for consequent sea level 

17 rising and directly linked to life-threatening 

18 air pollution.

19 For the first time over the last 75 years 

20 of its existence, my house as well as my 

21 neighborhood was surrounding by water and nearly 

22 flooded twice by storm surges over the last 4 
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1 years. As one standing on the front lines of 

2 climate change, I have a personal interest in 

3 seeing this rule put in place and vigorously 

4 enforced to save my home.

5 Two old dirty coal power plants already 

6 operate in our area and constantly spew carbon 

7 and a toxic mix of 70 substances into the air, 

8 water, and soil, any one of which could lead to 

9 severe illness or premature death. This is 

10 especially true if you are in an at-risk 

11 population, such as asthmatic, fetuses, infants 

12 and children, persons with heart and respiratory 

13 problems, or anyone with a weakened or 

14 compromised immune system, such as myself.

15 I have lupus which has weakened my immune 

16 system. So emissions from burning coal put me at 

17 higher risk for more suffering and premature 

18 death. So this rule is especially personal for 

19 me.

20 Yet even though carbon threatens our 

21 health, our economy, and our children's future, 

22 it is beyond logical reason that we currently 
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1 have no national limits on how much carbon and 

2 deadly poisons can be released into our air by 

3 the nation's largest source of carbon pollution: 

4 dirty coal-fired power plants.

5 If we know a company or industry is 

6 preparing to dump even more hazardous waste into 

7 our air, water, and back yard, why not try to 

8 stop it before it's too late, as was mentioned 

9 earlier about the coal plant that they're 

10 proposing, 60 miles upwind from us?

11 In fact, if you or I dumped arsenic, 

12 cyanide, lead, or mercury onto our next door 

13 neighbor's property, we would likely be charged 

14 with a crime and arrested. Why should 

15 corporations be allowed to get a permit and do 

16 the same thing just to make a profit? Why can't 

17 we see the carbon, mercury, and other pollutants 

18 in the air and water with our eyes? Even though 

19 we can't see it, we can certainly see their 

20 damage in the severe cases of asthma, bronchitis, 

21 heart disease, cancer, and brain damages to 

22 fetuses, infants, and children.
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1 According to the Clean Air Task Force, 

2 coal pollution in the United States costs us more 

3 than $100 billion annually in health cost. Over 

4 12,000 emergency room visits per year are due to 

5 coal-related illnesses.

6 The same report estimates that the coal 

7 plants nearby to Norfolk burden our residents 

8 with an additional $90.6 million annually in 

9 health care -- that's just for the City of 

10 Norfolk -- and 14 premature deaths attributed to 

11 emissions from burning coal.

12 So let's stop putting the profits of the 

13 1 percent before the common good of the 99 

14 percent. Please place the health of 300-million15 plus, our precious environment and the economy 

16 above the corporate bottom line. If we looked at 

17 this on a cost-benefit basis, in fact, with the 

18 known harm to our health, the premature deaths, 

19 environmental damage, and adverse environmental 

20 impacts, coal-burning power plants are big 

21 losers.

22 EPA, DOE, and industry projections 
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1 indicate that due to the economics of coal and 

2 natural gas among other factors, new power plants 

3 that are built over the next decade or more would 

4 be expected to meet the proposed standard even in 

5 the absence of the rule. So let's move ahead 

6 with it at all deliberate speed, because it is 

7 not expected to cause significant additional cost 

8 that would impact electricity prices or the 

9 liability.

10 Furthermore, energy companies can meet 

11 this standard by using plain renewable energy and 

12 technological innovation, as noted by the fact 

13 that several States and foreign countries already 

14 have limits on carbon pollution.

15 It's time for our nation to focus our 

16 energy on supporting sustainable clean energy 

17 jobs instead of relying on old, dirty coal-fired 

18 power plants for our energy. Every family, every 

19 person has the right to breathe clean air, free 

20 from toxic pollution that has taken too many 

21 lives and destroyed too many communities. We 

22 cannot accept more dirty coal while our friends 
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1 and families miss days of school and work, ending 

2 up in the emergency room or the morgue instead, 

3 perhaps. 

4 These proposed carbon limits will ensure 

5 that our young, the old, those in between, our 

6 communities, and America's work force are 

7 healthier while creating thousands of greatly 

8 needed jobs and fighting crime and corruption.

9 I ask you to follow the science, protect 

10 my home, and protect my health. Thank you.

11 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

12 Our next speaker is Scott Segal. When 

13 you're ready?

14 MR. SEGAL: Sure. If I can get this 

15 thing to work.

16 MR. HARVEY: We have a timer here too.

17 MR. SEGAL: Oh, I know. This is just 

18 easier for me to see. Okay.

19 Thank you very much. On behalf of the 

20 Electrical Reliability Coordinating Council, I am 

21 appearing today to address the carbon pollution 

22 standard for future power plants. ERCC is a 
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1 group of power-generating companies that provide 

2 reliable and affordable power to millions of 

3 consumers.

4 The proposed rule has substantial legal 

5 shortcomings, like its treatment of gas-fired 

6 power as a standard of performance for other 

7 fossil fuel-fired facilities instead of as a 

8 completely distinct unit, or the creation of a 

9 new industrial category that throws gas, coal, 

10 and other fossil inputs together for the purposes 

11 of addressing climate change and then teases them 

12 back out for regulation of traditional 

13 pollutants.

14 But I'm not talking about that today. 

15 That will be in our comments that we file in 

16 June. Today, I want to focus more on feasibility 

17 of the rule as proposed.

18 EPA has proposed standards that would 

19 require new coal-fired and certain other fossil 

20 fuel-fired power plants to use carbon capture and 

21 sequestration, or CCS. If there is not any coal22 fired unit or any other fossil-fired power plant 
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1 in the world that has been able, even with 

2 substantial governmental subsidies, to use this 

3 technology on a commercial scale, the Department 

4 of Energy explains why, concluding their multiple 

5 barriers to commercial development, including the 

6 absence of legal and regulatory framework, the 

7 lack of clarity on potential long-term 

8 liabilities, and market failures admitted due to 

9 knowledge spillover.

10 The current status of CCS technology is a 

11 particular concern to us with respect to this 

12 rule due to the nature of the NSPS program and 

13 the fact that it has immediate and binding 

14 effects even before this rule is final.

15 Specifically, the effect that this 

16 regulation would have on the current fleet owners 

17 cannot be ignored. While you folks have said 

18 it's on future -- it's right there in the title, 

19 "future power plants" -- we do think that there 

20 is some lack of clarity regarding modification, 

21 and we take you at your word in the regulatory 

22 preamble when you say that this rule establishes 
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1 a predicate for the regulation of existing power 

2 plants, as you do at page 201 of the preamble.

3 Some contend that, well, you allow a 

4 transitional group of power plants already under 

5 way to continue their development. This may be a 

6 little bit disingenuous. Let me explain why.

7 You also have a new source standard under 

8 the mercury and air toxic rule, the MATS rule, 

9 which even the folks that manufacture air 

10 pollution control devices suggest is not 

11 technologically feasible. It is going to take a 

12 while to sort that out, and by the time the new 

13 source standards for MATS are sorted out, your 

14 transitional window period, I believe, will have 

15 closed on the NSPS rule.

16 If you're trying to finance a brand17 spanking-new fossil fuel-fired power plant, I 

18 think you'd create substantial uncertainty for 

19 that transitional period. I think you can just 

20 start running the transitional period after the 

21 MATS rule is finally resolved.

22 We do believe that we have a substantial 
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1 number power plants at risk as a result of this 

2 rule. I will concede it's not solely as a result 

3 of the risk of this rule. There are market 

4 conditions that we're taking into account. 

5 There's also the proposed MATS rule that I just 

6 described. There is the cross-State rule. There 

7 is the ash, the potentially relisting of ash as a 

8 subtitle (c) hazardous waste. There are changes 

9 to the National Ambient Air Quality Standards. 

10 There are cooling water intake rules, and the 

11 discharge effluent under the Clean Water Act.

12 All taken together, it's almost we're 

13 getting the feeling that you don't like coal14 fired power. It's easy to get that implication, 

15 and that's too bad, really, because while a year 

16 ago, we were at about 44.5 percent of U.S. 

17 electric power, we're now down in the 30s, and 

18 the future is not bright.

19 But what I would suggest is this. A lot

20 of the folks you are hearing from today are 

21 associated with the Sierra Club, and look what 

22 I've read in the 24 hours from the Sierra Club. 
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1 There's the Beyond Coal Campaign. 

2 There's the Beyond Gas Campaign. And I now 

3 notice that they are opposing the confirmation of 

4 any Nuclear Regulatory Commission commissioner 

5 who actually supports the expansion of nuclear 

6 power.

7 Well, I'm not sure what their position is 

8 on hydroelectric, but I'm betting Sierra chapters 

9 that are located in the Pacific Northwest also 

10 oppose that. So if I take it altogether, it 

11 means that about 3 percent of U.S. electricity is 

12 supposed to provide 100 percent of U.S. electric 

13 needs. That's unrealistic, and not only that, 

14 it's unhealthy from the perspective of all those 

15 folks that read "I Love Clean Air" on my shirts. 

16 You also need to know that increasing the cost 

17 and decreasing the reliability of electric power 

18 does not come without substantial cost to public 

19 health.

20 One more item on carbon. Even the agency 

21 admits this rule --

22 ATTENDEE: Objection. He's making his 
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1 own --

2 MR. HARVEY: This is not a public debate. 

3 Mr. Segal, finish your statement, please.

4 MR. SEGAL: Even this agency admits that 

5 there's not likely to be a profound or any effect 

6 on actual global warming associated with this 

7 rule. That's true because there's a lot of 

8 different power plants being developed all across 

9 the world.

10 I want to make one point, though. This 

11 rule will reduce the chances that certain new 

12 technologies are brought to market. I'll give 

13 you one example. Down in Texas, there's a 

14 facility called the Las Brisas Energy Center, 

15 which would use Pepco, not coal, that is 

16 otherwise generated from petroleum refineries and 

17 will continue to be generated by those 

18 refineries. That Pepco can either be recycled 

19 into energy using state-of-the-art technology 

20 here in the United States, or it could be 

21 exported to Asia at great additional carbon 

22 disbenefit.
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1 MR. HARVEY: Mr. Segal, your time has 

2 expired.

3 MR. SEGAL: Yep, gotcha.

4 So at least in one example, carbon rates 

5 go up, not down, as a result the reg.

6 Thanks.

7 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for your 

8 statement.

9 Okay. Thank you very much to the both of 

10 you.

11 Okay. So we are going to go back to 

12 Steve Heinitz,, right, and Margaret --

13 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: These two.

14 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry.

15 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: There's somebody 

16 else on --

17 MR. HARVEY: Oh, Dan Lashof, Yeah.

18 All right. So Dan Lashof and Steve 

19 Heinitz are next, and then after that, we will go 

20 to Rocky Sunquist and Margaret Bowker.

21 Could we have quiet in the outside hall, 

22 please?
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1 All right. So we're going to start with 

2 Mr. Heinitz. Is that correct? I'm sure I'm 

3 mispronouncing your name. If you could spell 

4 your name for the reporter, and then you have 5 

5 minutes, and then we'll go to Mr. Lashof.

6 MR. HEINITZ: Last name is H-e-i-n-i-t-z.

7 MR. HARVEY: When you're ready?

8 MR. HEINITZ: Yes. As I said, my name is 

9 Steve Heinitz. I'm a resident of Mechanicsville, 

10 Virginia, a suburb in Hanover County, about 15 

11 miles north of Richmond, Virginia.

12 I've lived and worked in the area for 22 

13 years raising a family, and during that time, 

14 I've witnessed the tremendous growth in our area, 

15 like a lot of areas around the country, and it's 

16 obvious with more growth, more homes, businesses, 

17 we need more electricity. I'm not blind to that.

18 What most people don't know is the 

19 majority of the power, especially my area, is 

20 generated by burning coal that is mined from 

21 Southwest Virginia. Our economy is very 

22 dependent on coal in Virginia.
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1 Near every day, I witness trainloads of 

2 coal going back and forth to the local power 

3 plants, and I'm thankful for the reliable and 

4 affordable power. I know I pay my bill ever 

5 month.

6 My big concern is that what is the price 

7 of this power that we're getting from coal? I 

8 have a family, and I'm concerned about my health, 

9 my children's health, and further generations' 

10 health, that the power that we're generating from 

11 coal is just going up to the atmosphere. I 

12 believe in climate change. I think it's pretty 

13 evident. I'm not a scientist, but since the 

14 enactment of the Clean Air Act in 1970 and its 

15 amendments, it's evident that as a nation, we 

16 need to monitor and limit pollutants released 

17 into the air we all believe. So I think it's 

18 almost common sense that this is something we 

19 need to look at, and I think we're overdue for 

20 strong regulations that limit how much carbon can 

21 be released by coal-fired power plants.

22 And I do think, you know, we're not 
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1 looking to put the coal-fired power plants out of 

2 business. I think we have to use a common sense 

3 approach.

4 I am convinced that our nation's power 

5 companies have the needs to produce electricity 

6 for their customers, while making a reasonable 

7 profit, and not emitting dangerous levels of 

8 carbon into the air that will increase health 

9 cost. That's the flip side.

10 You year the debate about health costs. 

11 You know, having cheap electricity and then the 

12 offset of increased cost for health, you got to 

13 weigh all that.

14 So I appreciate the opportunity to speak 

15 my views to you today, and I just want to support 

16 that you move these regulations forward to 

17 regulate carbon coming from coal-fired power 

18 plants.

19 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

20 You can remain seated when Mr. Lashof 

21 speaks, and then we may have clarifying questions 

22 for either of you.
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1 Mr. Lashof.

2 MR. LASHOF: Thank you. Good morning. 

3 My name is Daniel Lashof. I'm the director of 

4 the Climate and Clean Air Program at the National 

5 Resources Defense Council, and I appreciate the 

6 opportunity to appear here today in support of 

7 EPA's proposal to set the first national limits 

8 on carbon pollution from coal-fired power plants 

9 and from power plants in general. This is a 

10 vital step towards protecting public health from 

11 the dangers of climate change.

12 One of the clearest dangers of climate 

13 change is evident on hot, muggy days, which we're 

14 starting to have today, and they're certainly 

15 unpleasant, but what a lot of people don't 

16 realize is that they're also deadly. And, in 

17 fact, excessive heat events are one of the 

18 largest killers of any weather-related event in 

19 the United States.

20 NRDC released a report yesterday which, 

21 based on peer-reviewed science by Dr. Kalkstein 

22 and his colleagues, shows that the additional 
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1 excessive heat events that are expected during 

2 this century could lead to 150,000 excess deaths 

3 in the United States, looking just at the top 40 

4 U.S. cities, due to the warming, driven primarily 

5 by carbon pollution.

6 So EPA is simply doing its job when it 

7 moves forward with limits on carbon pollution. 

8 Its job under the Clean Air Act is to protect 

9 public health and the environment from dangerous 

10 pollution, and there's just no question that 

11 carbon pollution from power plants does endanger 

12 public health and the environment. So we're glad 

13 EPA is moving forward. And we strongly support 

14 the fuel-neutral approach that EPA has taken in 

15 this rule.

16 Our electricity system is operated as an 

17 integrated whole, and a megawatt hour of 

18 electricity produced by a coal plant produces the 

19 same benefits as a megawatt hour of electricity 

20 produced by a natural gas plant or any other 

21 technology.

22 So as EPA has noted in its proposal, a 
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1 developer of a new powerplant has a lot of 

2 options about how to design that plant and many 

3 different ways to comply with the standard. So 

4 there would be no justification for EPA to allow 

5 more pollution from certain types of plants based 

6 on a design choice that is completely within the 

7 developers control. So we think it's very 

8 important and a very positive step that EPA has 

9 taken by taking this fuel-neutral approach, 

10 particularly given that the less polluting 

11 options are in fact less expensive as well.

12 Indeed, NRDC urges EPA to go further in 

13 establishing a fuel-neutral and technology14 neutral carbon pollution standard for new power 

15 plants. We see no reason to make a distinction 

16 among fossil fuel-generating units based solely 

17 on their technology configuration.

18 We would urge EPA to include all fossil 

19 electric-generating unit with a capacity above 25 

20 megawatts in the category of potential affected 

21 sources, and we noted that EPA has specifically 

22 asked for comment on how to address the issue of 
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1 units that are used only for peaking purposes. 

2 We'll elaborate on that in our written comments.

3 Now, some opponents of EPA have 

4 characterized this rule as some kind of war on 

5 coal, and we heard from Mr. Segal earlier. He 

6 didn't use those words, but he suggested as much.

7 This is simply untrue. In fact, EPA has, 

8 as I said, taken a fuel-neutral approach, and it 

9 has gone out of its way to provide an option that 

10 would allow coal-fired power plants to have 

11 higher emissions during their first 10 years of 

12 operation as long as they meet the standard on 

13 average over 30 years.

14 So if coal is losing in the battle for 

15 market share, it's in fact because of market 

16 forces, not because of EPA, and market analysts, 

17 utility executives, independent economists, and 

18 government forecasters have all recognized this.

19 Let me just cite one example in the time 

20 I have remaining. Alliance Bernstein's senior 

21 utility analyst Hugh Wynne cites the narrowing 

22 price differential between natural gas and coal, 
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1 the greater fuel efficiency of combined cycle 

2 power plants that use natural gas over 

3 conventional steam plants and the lower 

4 construction cost of combined cycle gas turbines. 

5 In explaining that it's unlikely that the 

6 economics of coal would improve enough to revive 

7 interest in building new coal plants, even in the 

8 absence of the standard, he said --

9 MR. HARVEY: Your time has expired.

10 MR. LASHOF: Okay. I will just finish 

11 the quite, if I can.

12 He said, quote, "We expect the proposed 

13 rule to have little impact on capacity additions 

14 over the remainder of the decade."

15 So thank you for allowing me to share 

16 this statement.

17 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

18 Okay. We will move on to our next 

19 speakers then. It will be Rocky Sunquist and 

20 Margaret Bowker.

21 Rocky Sunquist? Do we have Rocky 

22 Sunquist here?
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1 [No response.]

2 MR. HARVEY: Margaret Bowker is here.

3 Do we have a replacement for Rocky 

4 Sunquist?

5 [No response.]

6 MR. HARVEY: Okay. How about Derek 

7 Meyer?

8 [No response.]

9 MR. HARVEY: I'm drawing blanks here.

10 How about Pete Altman? Mr. Altman, you 

11 are next.

12 I'm going to put Rocky Sunquist and Derek 

13 Meyer on the list if they show up.

14 Okay. So if you could again introduce 

15 yourself for the reporter and then begin.

16 DR. BOWKER: All right. I am Dr. 

17 Margaret Bowker. I have recently moved to 

18 Alexandria, Virginia. I was a resident of 

19 Kentucky, and I am retired biologist.

20 I wish to speak in support of reducing 

21 carbon emissions from carbon plants. My doctoral 

22 training is in biology, specializing in ecology. 
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1 I am also a mother and owner of a non-profit 

2 that supports poor rural villages in Kenya.

3 I am an active Christian. I founded the 

4 Earth Ministry in my church in Kentucky, and I 

5 founded the Interfaith Coalition on Earth Care in 

6 my former community in Kentucky.

7 I am a concerned citizen, recently moved 

8 to Virginia from Kentucky.

9 Now, my science tells me, without 

10 question, that all living things - animals, 

11 plans, microbes, fungi -- depend on each other 

12 and interconnect with the nonliving. Nitrogen 

13 carbon, that which we are talking today, and 

14 energy, that which we're also talking, all of 

15 this is in a dynamic balance that has sustained 

16 itself over the millennia since life originated 

17 on earth.

18 In the face of the perpetual fluctuation 

19 and change, which is normal, ecosystems adjust 

20 and slowly adapt to maintain the dynamic balance 

21 that we see; that is, unless interference and 

22 imbalance become too extreme.
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1 Now, we humans are a part of, despite 

2 what some of us think, and depend on the 

3 productivity of life of ecosystems, yet we are 

4 changing them fast and drastically. We are 

5 removing resources and species. We are adding 

6 pollutants and foreign species. We are causing a 

7 drastically imbalance that shows signs of 

8 inability to adjust and recover.

9 Signs of this imbalance exist everywhere, 

10 and I know all of you have seen and heard of 

11 them. First, we have unprecedented and unnatural 

12 concentrations of CO2 in earth's atmosphere and 

13 water. We have more frequent drought and floods, 

14 and I point out the devastating Texas drought 

15 last summer and the continuing floods of the 

16 Mississippi River. 

17 We have increased numbers and more 

18 extreme weather events; hurricanes and 

19 tornadoes, for example.

20 We see around the world prolonged and 

21 repeated failure of once dependable seasonable 

22 rains. I have personally seen the results in the 
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1 Kenyan villages where I work. People have no 

2 water. The crops die. They are drinking water 

3 that looks like chocolate pudding, and that's all 

4 their is. And then the elephants invade and

5 destroy the trees in the villages.

6 We have accelerated species extinctions 

7 with our most visible and beloved, the large 

8 ones, lions and polar bears now threatened, 

9 likely doomed, and we are without doubt in the 

10 sixth major species extinction since life began 

11 3.8 billion years ago.

12 We see melting of polar ice caps and 

13 glaciers, and over the last two decades, we all 

14 have lived through record-breaking average 

15 temperatures in our communities, our States, our 

16 nation, and worldwide.

17 Now, the other half of my message has to 

18 do with my faith. All faiths, including 

19 Christian, teach a reverence for earth and all 

20 life for God's creation. Humans are responsible 

21 for preserving all creation, which God tells us 

22 in all faiths is good and available to use 
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1 rightly but not ours to destroy.

2 Major world religions are embracing 

3 climate change as an issue of human justice and 

4 survival, and I ask if we are a God-loving 

5 nation, then can we not hear and act on this 

6 message?

7 Therefore, my science and my faith 

8 convince me that leaders must make the difficult 

9 decisions to preserve this balance, the existence 

10 of earth's ecosystems, God's creation. Why don't 

11 we?

12 And I've thought about this a lot. I 

13 acknowledge ignorance. I acknowledge fear. I 

14 acknowledge comfort in the status quo, and 

15 certainly opposition by those making huge profits 

16 in the current system. Change in lifestyle and 

17 business as usual is hard and frightening to 

18 people.

19 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Dr. Bowker. Your 

20 time has expired.

21 DR. BOWKER: Okay. Thank you very --

22 MR. HARVEY: You can wrap up, if you have 
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1 something.

2 DR. BOWKER: What I want to say is 

3 America has always been a leader for good, and I 

4 ask you to help our country face the challenge of 

5 climate change and be a leader once again.

6 Thank you.

7 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

8 Mr. Altman.

9 MR. ALTMAN: Good morning. My name is 

10 Peter Altman. I am the Climate Campaign Director 

11 for the Natural Resources Defense Council, and I 

12 am filling in for someone today, so I didn't 

13 prepare testimony. I hope you will bear with me. 

14 I'm going to read some prepared statement from 

15 my BlackBerry in a moment.

16 The overall message that I want to convey 

17 to EPA this morning is that there is a massive 

18 amount of public support in the EPA, the EPA's 

19 mission of protecting public health, and for the 

20 proposed carbon standard to set limits on carbon 

21 pollution from new power plants.

22 And I want to run through some of the 
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1 evidence of that support. I will assume that you 

2 have already heard a lot of testimony about the 

3 science and about the health impacts of carbon, 

4 but I want to make sure as well that this message 

5 comes across loud and clear. No matter how much 

6 political noise is aimed at the EPA and hate 

7 speech like that which comes out of some groups 

8 like the Hartland Institute or the amount of 

9 vitriol that comes from fossil fuel-funded 

10 organizations like Americans for Prosperity, 

11 which is funded by the Koch Brothers, they make a 

12 lot of noise. They make a lot of noise inside 

13 the Beltway, but I think the evidence is clear 

14 that out in the States, beyond the Beltway, the 

15 public is firmly behind the EPA.

16 Well over 1 million comments have already 

17 been submitted in support of this standard, which 

18 is, to our knowledge, more comments than have 

19 ever been supported -- excuse me -- submitted in 

20 support to an EPA proposed rulemaking than ever 

21 before. So that's just a tremendous outpouring 

22 of public support, and it comes from all over the 
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1 country.

2 In addition, just at these hearings, 

3 there's something like 200 people who have taken 

4 time off from their daily lives, from their work, 

5 from their family obligations to come here and 

6 tell you, like Dr. Bowker has, that it is 

7 important for the EPA to move forward with these 

8 standards.

9 We are also seeing the evidence of 

10 support among our nation's editorial boards, and 

11 I'll read some excerpts from some of them right 

12 now.

13 The Toledo Blade shortly after the carbon 

14 standard was -- proposal was made public, the 

15 Toledo Blade came out with an editorial entitled 

16 "Tougher Pollution Rule," and they said the U.S. 

17 EPA has issued a rule aimed at limiting 

18 greenhouse gas emissions from new coal-fired 

19 power plants. That appropriate action is in no 

20 way an effort to deny coal-fired power's role as 

21 America's dominant energy source, as critics 

22 allege. 
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1 In Pennsylvania, the Pittsburgh Post 

2 Gazette said that the rule is a small step, but 

3 it goes in the right direction, toward the next 

4 generation of cleaner power.

5 I have one other one. The Houston 

6 Chronicle also wrote in support of the standard 

7 saying that the new rule strikes a healthy 

8 balance, preventing future construction of the 

9 dirtiest coal plants while leaving room for 

10 natural gas and carbon capture coal plants.

11 The Dallas Morning News calls it a 

12 sensible compromise.

13 The L.A. Times called it a small step 

14 forward for earth.

15 The Salt Lake Tribune, the New York 

16 Times, and a number of other editorial boards 

17 have also weighed in announcing their support for 

18 this standard, its reasonableness, and the 

19 necessity of setting limits for carbon pollution.

20 And that necessity is also something that 

21 can be measured in polling. The American Lung 

22 Association recently publicized a poll by a 
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1 bipartisan polling team, finding that 72 percent 

2 of voters support new standards for carbon 

3 pollution from power plants, and the support is 

4 strong even after voters have heard arguments 

5 from both sides of the issue.

6 So we think it's pretty clear that the 

7 American people want the EPA to move forward with 

8 the new -- with the carbon standard for new power 

9 plants. 

10 We are also hearing a tremendous amount 

11 of support and urging for the EPA, and NRDC 

12 itself urges the EPA to also move forward with 

13 setting standards for existing power plants. The 

14 support is there. Don't be discouraged by the 

15 Beltway noise. Clearly, the American people want 

16 the EPA to be able to do its job.

17 MR. HARVEY: Perfect timing. Thank you, 

18 Mr. Altman and Dr. Bowker.

19 MR. ALTMAN: Thanks.

20 MR. HARVEY: Questions?

21 [No response.]

22 MR. HARVEY: Okay. Thank you both for 
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1 taking the time to talk.

2 I am going to check once more. Derek 

3 Meyer or Rocky Sunquist. Okay, great.

4 Do we have Rocky Sunquist yet?

5 [No response.]

6 MR. HARVEY: Okay.

7 DR. BOWKER: You take two copies, is that 

8 right, what you do?

9 MR. HARVEY: Sure. We'll take -- all 

10 these will be in the docket.

11 DR. BOWKER: Thank you.

12 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

13 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: So you're still 

14 missing Rocky Sunquist.

15 MR. HARVEY: Yeah. So I'm going to cross 

16 Rocky Sunquist off.

17 Do we have Ertle Mitchell here? Ertle 

18 Mitchell. Mr. Mitchell, if you could join Mr. 

19 Meyer?

20 MR. MEYER: "Meyer."

21 MR. HARVEY: "Meyer." Sorry.

22 I'm an equal opportunity. I mispronounce 
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1 everybody's name.

2 Okay. Mr. Meyer, will go first. If you 

3 could spell your name first, and then we'll start 

4 the time.

5 MR. MEYER: Okay. My name is Derek 

6 Meyer. That's D-E-R-E-K, M-E-Y-E-R. And I'm 

7 here today to talk very briefly about the 

8 proposed carbon pollution standard.

9 My first concern is about the necessity 

10 for addressing the health effect to pollution, in 

11 particular both for the next generation and for 

12 the growing number of seniors in our population. 

13 We need to do the right thing for everyone from 

14 a health standpoint, and this standard is a key 

15 step forward for that.

16 I'm also concerned about the impact of 

17 climate change, such as the rise in sea level 

18 that we're already seeing. This will put a 

19 significant and historic portion of my hometown 

20 of Alexandria underwater along with large areas 

21 along Virginia's coastline, including the naval 

22 facilities in Hampton Roads and other major areas 
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1 as well such as New York City.

2 While some steps have been taken and are 

3 continuing to be taken to address these symptoms, 

4 we as a nation need to address pollution as the 

5 primary cause, and again, this proposed standard 

6 is a vital step toward that.

7 So I want to thank everybody here today 

8 and EPA overall, both for holding these hearings 

9 and listening to everyone's input and for 

10 enacting standards that we would consider a step 

11 forward.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. HARVEY: Mr. Mitchell.

14 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah. My last name is M15 i-t-c-h-e-l-l.

16 I'm am accountant by training, but I'm 

17 going to give a history lesson this morning. I 

18 don't think we're heard a history lesson yet.

19 Go back 200 years, most people consider 

20 the industrial revolution took place in England. 

21 At that time, they had cottage industries, okay? 

22 And what that consisted of mostly was a family, 
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1 and they'd have a couple of rooms in their 

2 cottage. And that's how they made cloth.

3 Now, at that time, clothing was very 

4 expensive, because this was a very slow process. 

5 Well, along about this time 200 years ago, a 

6 couple guys got smart, and they figured out how 

7 to make factories, and they located these 

8 factories right along rivers for the water power, 

9 okay?

10 Well, it seems that these weavers in 

11 these homes, they didn't like this idea, "Hey,

12 I'm going to lose my job. I can't compete." So 

13 they actually sabotaged the looms, okay? They go 

14 in and throw sand and rocks in them and so forth.

15 But the thing about it, the industry 

16 prevailed, and so now we all have cheap cotton. 

17 I don't know about you guys, but my wife has got 

18 more clothes than she can possibly wear, okay? 

19 So, anyway, that happened. We saw an 

20 improvement.

21 Along around the same time, someone came 

22 up with the idea of making steam shovels. For 
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1 every steam shovel that was produced, 30 ditch 

2 diggers, pick and shovel guys, lost their jobs. 

3 However, nowadays, progress happened. We made 

4 steam shovels, and now, of course, we've got even 

5 more effective -- what I'm driving at here is the 

6 coal industry is going to scream, okay? We know 

7 that. We all see the ads.

8 I live inside the Beltway, okay? I'm one 

9 of these inside the Beltway, and I've lived here 

10 for 36 years. So I know. I know how it works.

11 A neighbor across the street from mine 

12 was a lobbyist for the banking industry. One day 

13 just before Christmas one year, he popped his 

14 trunk, okay? And he showed me all the bottles of 

15 Chivas Regal that were in the trunk, okay? He 

16 says, "Guess where these are going?" I said, 

17 "Well, they're not coming to my house." He says, 

18 "You got it."

19 So we know there's going to be a 

20 tremendous amount of lobbyists. We know that. 

21 We've seen it already. All I'm saying to the 

22 EPA, stand by your boots. You're doing a great 
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1 job, and let's keep it up, okay? Don't bend 

2 over.

3 You guys, you're civil students. You're 

4 not going to be impacted by the lobbyists, but 

5 think about guys like everybody in this room, 

6 okay? Keep up the good work.

7 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Mitchell and 

8 Mr. Meyer.

9 Our next speakers ar Peter Roquemore and 

10 Phillip Collins.

11 And again, I'm sure I'm mispronouncing 

12 your name. So if you could pronounce it 

13 correctly and spell it correctly, that will help.

14 SO who is Mr. Roquemore?

15 MR. ROQUEMORE: I'm Mr. Roquemore.

16 MR. HARVEY: Roquemore, there you go. If 

17 you could spell it, please, first?

18 MR. ROQUEMORE: Yeah. Roquemore is R-O19 Q-U-E-M-O-R-E, and I am also going to read a 

20 prepared statement today. I'm from the Union of 

21 Concerned Scientists, and I am reading a prepared 

22 statement from Angela Anderson, the director of 
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1 our Climate and Energy program.

2 So thank you for giving me the 

3 opportunity to testify in this important matter 

4 today. Today, I would like to emphasize three 

5 little known aspects of the carbon emission 

6 standards for new power plants.

7 The record of these proceedings should 

8 show that the proposed rules had been anticipated 

9 for over a decade, are quite modest and 

10 reasonable, and send an economic signal to the 

11 utility industry and its regulators that it's 

12 critical to the long overdue modernization of our 

13 electricity system.

14 The energy industry has anticipated 

15 carbon standards for many years. It has actively 

16 sought regulatory certainty.

17 In a speech on September 29th in the year 

18 2000 in Saganaw, Michigan, then-Candidate George 

19 Bush promised to work with Congress, 

20 environmental groups, and the energy industry to 

21 require carbon emissions reductions from power 

22 plants within a reasonable period of time.
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1 While President Bush reversed himself on 

2 that promise, there has been a decade of public 

3 policy debate on whether, if, and how to regulate 

4 carbon dioxide from power plants.

5 When the Supreme Court ruled that Carbon 

6 was a pollutant, the die was cast, and power 

7 companies have known that carbon regulation was 

8 inevitable.

9 Responsible companies have had many years 

10 to plan how to provide their customers with lower 

11 carbon power options. EPA's rules for new power 

12 plants make it clear to utilities and State 

13 regulators that as a nation, we have committed to 

14 reducing the emissions of the power sector over 

15 time, and that they will be held responsible for 

16 making decisions that produce that result, and 

17 that consumers will be the beneficiaries.

18 The carbon emission standard for new 

19 power plants is an historic step forward, but in 

20 reality, it will only trim carbon emissions over 

21 time and is a very modest approach. The new 

22 plant rule will help create a cleaner, healthier, 
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1 and more modern energy future. UCS thinks the 

2 EPA rules are part of a necessary framework 

3 needed to address the dangers of unchecked 

4 climate change that an overwhelming majority of 

5 scientists have been warning us about for years.

6 Throughout the last decade, much has been 

7 learned about climate change, the likely impacts, 

8 and the emissions reductions needed to give us 

9 the best chance of avoiding catastrophic 

10 consequences. The rules for new plans alone will 

11 not get the job done and is far from the 

12 overreach industry claims. It is a good first 

13 step, but many more steps are needed.

14 EPA should resist efforts to slow 

15 progress to enact rules for existing plants, and 

16 Congress should not interfere with the 

17 implementation of this long-awaited step toward 

18 building an energy system that is designed with 

19 climate change in mind.

20 Carbon emissions alter our climate and 

21 harm America's health. Fortunately, we have the 

22 technology to reduce it. Turning on more 
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1 renewable energy can curb our emissions and put 

2 innovative technology and more Americans to work. 

3 This rule, while not perfect, signals that more 

4 of our future energy needs will be met by clean, 

5 affordable, and reliable sources of energy.

6 The first-ever national carbon pollution 

7 standard for power plants is essential to spur 

8 innovation in clean technologies that will create 

9 more clean energy jobs, but most important, this 

10 rule will eventually reduce the effects of 

11 climate change.

12 Today, you will hear doctors, nurses, 

13 scientists, and other experts that say carbon 

14 pollution is dangerous for children and other 

15 vulnerable populations . Rising temperatures are 

16 likely to bring more smog, which will trigger 

17 more asthma attacks. To parents of children with 

18 asthma, clean air and climate is personal.

19 Coastal cities around the country are 

20 coming to grips with the reality of sea level 

21 rise, storm surge, and antiquated water 

22 management plants. Longer and more frequent 
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1 periods of drought worry farmers and ranchers. 

2 Climate change to those folks is personal.

3 The nation's power generators have long 

4 known the dangers their carbon emissions pose to 

5 our health. They have more options than ever 

6 before to meet our power needs without increasing 

7 carbon pollution.

8 Thank you, EPA, for proposing a rule that 

9 will require them to do exactly that. Let's 

10 bring a close to the decade of delay and get down 

11 to the business of creating a climate resilient 

12 energy system that truly works for a warmer 

13 world.

14 And, personally, in 2009, I had the 

15 chance to sit down with Administrator Jackson in 

16 Copenhagen just after the endangerment finding. 

17 We had a conversation about the U.S. path forward 

18 in relation to the international context, and she 

19 told me that she was proud of EPA's science and 

20 the hard work EPA would be doing to put us on the 

21 right path forward, to reduce emissions and bring 

22 clean energy to the future. So keep it up.
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1 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Roquemore.

2 Mr. Collins.

3 MR. COLLINS: My name is Phillip Collins. 

4 Phillip is two l's. Collins, C-O-L-L-I-N-S. I 

5 want to thank you for allowing me to testify in 

6 support of the standard to limit carbon from 

7 power plants.

8 I'm an attorney in the District of 

9 Columbia Bar. I am normally in the local courts, 

10 but I have an interest and a hobby looking into 

11 the energy environment and climate future of our 

12 country. I have a Meetup group, D.C. Environment 

13 Meetup. I'm here today on behalf of the Sierra 

14 Club, when someone wasn't able to attend.

15 The carbon standard and your proposed 

16 action falls within a continuum of science and 

17 public opinion and legislation on these issues. 

18 The Supreme Court ruled that the EPA does have 

19 the authority to legislate on this issue that 

20 carbon is a pollutant, and a case under the Clean 

21 Air Act, which was originally developed when the 

22 public became concerned about environmental 
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1 issues back in the '70s.

2 But now that there's increased concern, 

3 obviously quite apparent change sin climate, we 

4 can see it in the types of plants that grow and 

5 the types of winters that we have and the types 

6 of summers that we have, and the pollution has 

7 been tied in a long time ago with carbon 

8 emissions.

9 Now, carbon, of course, is not a 

10 pollutant in terms of like acute. Just having a 

11 little amount of carbon is not like having a 

12 little amount of arsenic in your system, but in 

13 terms of the effect that it has on global 

14 warming, because it captures the temperature for 

15 us, and as a result the long-term issue, the 

16 climate will change.

17 Now, we could think just in the short 

18 time, but it's important to think that we would 

19 have children, grandchildren, and many 

20 descendants coming after us, and if we stand on 

21 these shoulders, the giants, we should at least 

22 stand up as much as we can to be those strong 
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1 shoulders for the future generation.

2 The rule may have some temporary and 

3 short-term effects which could actually anger 

4 some people and particularly the people that gain 

5 a lot of wealth through carbon emissions which 

6 may -- the cause may rise, and it may be a lot of 

7 citizens are concerned, but I understand the 

8 testimony today that the public does generally 

9 support this. There is a rule to support this in 

10 the law.

11 The Supreme Court has said that the EPA 

12 does have the right to regulate, and it should go 

13 forward with this.

14 I've been active and I've seen, for 

15 example, James Hansen, the climate scientist from 

16 NASA in Washington, D.C. at some meetings, and 

17 he's spoken. I've talked to implementation 

18 personally also about this, and the carbon is an 

19 effect. He was on the ICPC, which won the Nobel

20 Prize. So it's a global concern.

21 Other nations are addressing it even more 

22 than we are. Denmark, Iceland, and other 
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1 countries are moving to use a lot of alternative 

2 energy. Iceland has a lot of geothermal power. 

3 Denmark has a lot of wind. We should look into 

4 that, but we also need to reduce the carbon 

5 coming out of the plants that we do have now, 

6 some of which obviously are going to be needed to 

7 keep our economy running.

8 But the incremental cost is certainly 

9 going to be worth it in the long run, and we 

10 can't just think in the short term. I think 

11 that's the main public opinion here is that we do 

12 need to think of our children, grandchildren, and 

13 beyond, far beyond that.

14 So I thank you.

15 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Collins.

16 Next up are Paul Ryder and Amanda 

17 Formica, and then after that, we will have Dave 

18 Redding and Henry -- I'm going to mispronounce is 

19 -- "Ickes"?

20 So Paul Ryder and Amanda Formica. So, 

21 Mr. Ryder, if you could start by spelling your 

22 name.
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1 MR. RYDER: My name is Paul Ryder, last 

2 name R-Y-D-E-R.

3 MR. HARVEY: Whenever you're ready.

4 MR. RYDER: Paul Ryder, Vienna, Virginia. 

5 I'm in product development for a 

6 telecommunications company. I consider myself a 

7 tree-hugging Republican. I've never actively 

8 participated in any bureaucratic debate outside 

9 of the office but feel I have to weigh in on this 

10 one.

11 I strongly support the EPA's proposed 

12 carbon pollution standards for new power plants 

13 and would even support tightening the carbon 

14 pollution standards for existing power plants 

15 within reason.

16 I've been to Beijing a few times and have 

17 seen the jeopardy that people can be put in when 

18 governments have an overly permissive attitude 

19 toward polluters and their impact on the 

20 environment.

21 I've attached a relatively recent picture 

22 I took while out on a jog one day in Beijing. 
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1 It's not an overcast day in Beijing. That's just 

2 smog, and it's every day. The only time it 

3 clears up is on a windy day. I understand it's 

4 an extreme case, but it's where we could end up.

5 Let's see. I have two kids now and will 

6 soon have a third. I need them and the kids they 

7 will one day have to be comfortable playing 

8 outside, swimming in natural lakes and rivers, 

9 and simply breathing fresh, clean air.

10 It frustrates me to no end that 

11 politicians bent on squabbling with one another 

12 can't come together to improve the environment 

13 for their children and mine.

14 Power plants need to be held accountable 

15 for the pollutants they inject into our 

16 environment. I understand that there will be a 

17 cost that someone, probably the consumers of 

18 energy, will need to bear. I'm okay with that, 

19 because we make our own choices about how much 

20 energy we can assume and are willing to pay for.

21 But if we -- but if decisions are made 

22 regarding power plant pollutants, are made 
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1 without considering the long-term impacts to our 

2 kids and grandkids, then we take a choice away 

3 from them. They won't be given the choice to buy 

4 clean air and dirty air. They'll be forced to 

5 breathe the air we enabled.

6 I'm also concerned about global warming's 

7 impact to plant and animal habitats. How can we 

8 almost carelessly continue to wound a global 

9 ecosystem that took millions of years to develop? 

10 As only a small component of the global 

11 ecosystem, how do we justify impacting everything 

12 else in the ecosystem so drastically?

13 I hope that my kids and their kids can 

14 enjoy the same plant and animal diversity that I 

15 have, and I worry that if we don't proactively, 

16 as in the case of new power plants, and 

17 reactively for existing power plants address 

18 carbon emissions now, we are leaving the future 

19 to chance and wishful thinking.

20 I would love to see all politicians who 

21 have kids comes together and put aside their 

22 political allegiances and do what's right by the 
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1 environment. I know that won't happen, but if 

2 decision-makers on both sides can consider what 

3 is best for the country our kids live in rather 

4 than what is cheapest now, the debate over power 

5 plant pollutants might be more productive.

6 The longer we wait to do what's right, 

7 the fewer options we'll have for reversing the 

8 damage. It seems like any fixes we implement 5 

9 years from now will be more costly than the 

10 solution we put in place today.

11 And that's it.

12 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Ryder.

13 Ms. Formica?

14 MS. FORMICA: My name is Amanda Formica. 

15 I'm from Arlington, Massachusetts and currently 

16 live in Washington, D.C.

17 First and foremost, as a young person, I 

18 am testifying in strong support of the proposed 

19 carbon pollution standard. I didn't study 

20 environmental issues in college, nor am I a 

21 professional environmentalist. Right now I work 

22 with people who are homeless.
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1 The people I work with sleep on the 

2 street and in shelters and spend most of their 

3 day outside, all in a city graded D in air 

4 quality by the American Lung Association.

5 I see many people with respiratory 

6 problems, asthma and cancer, along with other 

7 health problems and know that the smog from 

8 traffic, construction, and area coal power plants 

9 that functioned until recently on Capitol Hill, 

10 Buzzard's Point, Benning Road, and in Alexandria, 

11 Virginia, all within 5 miles of here, contribute 

12 to these problems.

13 Moreover, I know people who died on the 

14 street or have life-threatening emergencies 

15 because of the erratic weather influenced by 

16 climate change from too much carbon in the 

17 atmosphere.

18 With increasingly high temperatures in 

19 the summer, unpredictable temperatures in the 

20 fall and winter, and flooding in the spring, 

21 people living outside cannot properly prepare to 

22 stay safe and are left more vulnerable.
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1 Poor people in general, especially people 

2 of color, are more likely than rich people to 

3 live near coal power plants and are more likely 

4 to live in communities from where coal is 

5 extracted. They are, therefore, most susceptible 

6 to the health effects of unchecked carbon and are 

7 the least likely to get the benefits. They are 

8 less likely to have health insurance and often go 

9 into debt and even become homeless, as I've seen 

10 in my job, because they can't afford the bills 

11 for cancer treatment and chronic respiratory 

12 problems.

13 I also see how the climate has changed in 

14 only the 24 years since I was born, including the 

15 winter without snow this year, another historic 

16 winter where the snowpocalypsed 2 years ago, and 

17 the unusual flooding just this week.

18 I read about island nations like Kiribati 

19 that are evacuating all of their people to Fiji 

20 because the water has risen too much and the 

21 unprecedented tornadoes and floods in the Midwest 

22 and hurricanes on the Gulf Coast.
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1 I am part of the global youth 

2 environmental movement, and I am fighting for my 

3 future. Carbon is the world's most dangerous 

4 pollutant, yet it goes unchecked into the 

5 atmosphere by the U.S., long the world's largest 

6 emitter of pollution and consumer of energy.

7 Coal and other power plants and 

8 industries emit far more carbon than households, 

9 and they make a profit off of it that the average 

10 person never sees, even if they see the effects 

11 of climate change.

12 Without strong carbon pollution 

13 standards, like the ones proposed, energy 

14 companies will continue making money today, but 

15 it's the people and the environment that suffer 

16 the long-term consequences.

17 Not only does the EPA have a 

18 responsibility to represent poor Americans who 

19 are disproportionately affected by climate change 

20 and unchecked carbon but all Americans who are 

21 all vulnerable to major disruption from climate 

22 change. Because air is a public good that the 
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1 whole world shares, setting these carbon 

2 standards is also a global and historic 

3 responsibility.

4 I am a member of SustainUS, an 

5 organization of U.S. youth working for strong 

6 international climate policy. I traveled with 

7 SustainUS as a delegate to the COP 17 UNF CCC 

8 climate negotiations in Durban, South Africa, 

9 last December. I met youth from Australia who 

10 helped pass a climate -- a carbon tax in their 

11 country and youth from Mauritius, an island 

12 nation, working with their government to keep 

13 their country just from sinking.

14 American youth had no government policy 

15 to point to at COP 17, yet our country is 

16 historically the world's largest carbon emitter. 

17 I left COP 17 knowing that the world is at 

18 minimum going to get hotter by 2 or 3 degrees 

19 Celsius without strong policy or enforcement. 

20 The 200 young people I worked with, including 60 

21 American youth, know that this is an unacceptable 

22 scenario.
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1 For today's American children, more than 

2 20 percent of whom live in poverty and 50 percent 

3 of whom will live in poverty at some point before 

4 the age of 18, and for their grandchildren's 

5 grandchildren, it is vital that we enact these 

6 standards and that they are only the beginning of 

7 major reform to American attitudes toward energy 

8 consumption and regulation.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Ms. Formica.

11 Thank you both.

12 Our next speakers are Dave Redding and 

13 Henry Ickes. So please have a seat at the table.

14 And if you would first, Mr. Redding --

15 Mr. Redding, if you will go first, spell your 

16 name, and then --

17 MR. REDDING: My name is David Redding. 

18 That's R-E-D-D-I-N-G, and I am a resident of 

19 Charlottesville, Virginia. I am a member of 

20 Sierra Club. I am also part of Virginia 

21 Organizing.

22 I did not expect to speak this morning. 
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1 I'm glad that the EPA opened it up to us, and you 

2 guys seem interested -- actually interested in 

3 what we're saying.

4 MR. HARVEY: We are.

5 MR. REDDING: I think that's wonderful.

6 I come from Virginia, which is a State 

7 where we put 10,000 pounds of coal dust in the 

8 air every day. That's just the power plants. 

9 They are the major polluters, but that's 10,000 

10 pounds. That's every day. That's a lot of coal 

11 dust going into the air, a lot of carbon.

12 We cannot continue this. Our State 

13 capital, I presume one or maybe both of you --

14 Reid, maybe it's you -- that live --

15 MR. HARVEY: We're both Virginians.

16 MR. REDDING: Okay. You're both 

17 Virginians. Do you realize that our State 

18 capital has been rated the asthma capital of the 

19 United States? Richmond is now the asthma 

20 capital of the United States, and part of it --

21 not all of it, but part of it is just the 

22 pollutants that we're putting in the air, and 
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1 there's lots of other things.

2 I know you guys are working on a mercury 

3 standard and all that, and that's good. We have 

4 to get the carbon standard through. We really 

5 needed a stronger standard, but I understand that 

6 you can't -- what is it that they say? It's like 

7 making sausage; it's not pretty. So I appreciate 

8 what the EPA has been able to do.

9 We need to consider the additional costs 

10 other than the costs that we're putting out for 

11 coal at this point in time. From what I 

12 understand, there's between $3 and $9 of 

13 additional health costs for every $1 of coal 

14 costs. So we're, in effect, spending a lot of 

15 money on our health, and we have bad health as a 

16 result of that.

17 There's been scientific studies that have 

18 been done that say that up to 20,000 heart 

19 attacks will be somewhat connected to the issue 

20 of carbon pollution. That's 20,000 people year. 

21 We really need to do something to do this, and I 

22 appreciate what the EPA has done. I look forward 
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1 to seeing the mercury standards. So thank you 

2 for what you've done.

3 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Redding.

4 If you could pronounce your name 

5 correctly?

6 MR. ICKES: Sure. My name is Henry 

7 Ickes, spelled H-E-N-R-Y, I-C-K-E-S. I live in 

8 Arlington, Virginia. I'm a retired Federal 

9 employee, having worked in telecommunications and 

10 information security. I'm 66 years old, which 

11 makes me an early baby-boomer.

12 I am trying desperately to fight the 

13 aging process through die and exercise, but 

14 there's not an awful lot that I can do concerning 

15 the overall environment.

16 Now, in case anyone still needs evidence 

17 of the effects of fossil fuel burning and its 

18 destructive capability, I brought this with me 

19 just in case I had the chance to speak.

20 This is the December 2011 calendar issued 

21 on behalf of the Long Island Railroad. I became 

22 environmentally aware through my maternal 
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1 grandfather since I was a child. I have also 

2 been a railroad buff since the same period of 

3 time. So I'm interested in the effects of 

4 railroading on the environment.

5 Now, back when this particular photograph 

6 was taken, about 1 month after I was born -- this 

7 is in March of '46 -- the Long Island Railroad 

8 almost exclusively used coal-fired steam 

9 locomotives on its eastern extremity. The 

10 western extremity was pretty much all 

11 electrified, but steam was the main source of 

12 power.

13 Allow me, please, to read very briefly 

14 from the caption: Without the coal smoke which 

15 acted like a natural defoliant, the vegetation in 

16 Bethpage got a second chance. This scene where 

17 the central branch of the Long Island Railroad 

18 joins the main line would be hardly recognizable 

19 today, because the flora has fully recovered. it 

20 is tree-ladened and enveloped with homes.

21 Steam power was retired 9-1/2 years after 

22 this March 1946 photograph was exposed. You can 
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1 see from the location of the tracks back through 

2 the treeline is a distance of approximately 100 

3 feet, the length of the football field.

4 This is evidence that if given the 

5 chance, we can recover from the effects of fossil 

6 fuel burning, but we have to give the earth a 

7 chance to recover from all of this.

8 I support stronger carbon emission 

9 limits, and thank you very kindly for giving me 

10 the chance to speak at the last minute.

11 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Ickes.

12 Thank you very much, both of you.

13 All right. Our next speakers are Richard 

14 Whiteford and Alexa Manning.

15 MR. ICKES: I have a handout.

16 MR. HARVEY: Okay.

17 MR. ICKES: You can take that?

18 MR. HARVEY: Sure.

19 MR. ICKES: Thank you.

20 MR. HARVEY: Shall we open the envelope 

21 here? It's sealed.

22 MR. ICKES: I have one opened.
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1 MR. HARVEY: Okay, great.

2 All right. After these speakers, just so 

3 we're prepared, the next up are Jay Butera and 

4 Charlotte Leeks.

5 So we'll start with Richard Whiteford. 

6 If you could spell your name for the reporter?

7 MR. WHITEFORD: Richard, and the last 

8 name is W-H-I-T-E-F-O-R-D, like a white Ford 

9 automobile.

10 I got to preface my presentation here 

11 with the fact that this lady is my neighbor, and 

12 we just met today for the first time on the 

13 train.

14 At any rate, I'm here on behalf of the 

15 Climate Reality Project, and also, I'm a longtime 

16 member of the Sierra Club.

17 I went online yesterday. I do a lot of 

18 climate work, and I went on and checked out where 

19 CO2 levels were yesterday. This is a daily 

20 number, but, you know, they look at averages. CO2

21 yesterday was at 396.18 parts per million. 

22 That's 116 parts per million higher than the 
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1 homeostatic level for 800,000 years. It's 

2 really, really high, and that's really dangerous, 

3 and that's why we're seeing the weather 

4 situations that we have and so forth.

5 And that 116 parts per million increase 

6 happened over roughly the last 120 years as we 

7 burned fossil fuels to feed the industrial 

8 revolution.

9 We are also seeing -- I just said that. 

10 I'm not good at reading my talks, but due to 

11 this, no matter how you burn oil, gas, wood, or 

12 coil, the end product is CO2. You can scrub it. 

13 You can clean it. You can do whatever you want 

14 with it, but the end results is it's CO2.

15 Now, I think your proposal is great. I 

16 am in support of it because we have to do 

17 something, but we are so far behind the 8-ball 

18 right now at 396 parts per million that we're in 

19 for a really rough ride. I mean, you guys know 

20 that. I'm talking -- you know, I know you know 

21 that, and I'm just concerned about the 

22 administration as a whole not taking, not having 
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1 enough back bone here to really engage, make this 

2 a campaign issue and engage in really doing 

3 something about shifting us from fossil fuel to 

4 green technology, and we need to do it really 

5 fast. I just don't understand why.

6 Another thing I don't understand -- and 

7 I'm on the forefront of this on a daily basis --

8 is why hearsay trumps science, and when I say 

9 that, I'm talking about the Hartland Institute, 

10 the George C. Marshall Institute, and some of 

11 these other think tanks -- oxymoron -- but how 

12 did we ever get there to allow hearsay to trump 

13 science?

14 This is a life in that situation, and I 

15 really hope the EPA takes a strong hand during 

16 this administration to address the problem. 

17 Thank you.

18 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

19 Next, Ms. Manning. If ou can introduce 

20 yourself again real quick?

21 MS. MANNING: Yes. My name is Alexa 

22 Manning. Should I spell that? Manning? It's a 
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1 common name.

2 MR. HARVEY: Go ahead.

3 MS. MANNING: Thank you very much for the 

4 opportunity to voice my opinion in regard to the 

5 proposed carbon pollution standard for new power 

6 plants. This historic standard will ensure that 

7 power companies who invest in new fossil fuel8 fired power plants will use clean modern 

9 technologies that limit harmful carbon pollution 

10 that is a threat to the environment, public 

11 health, and contributes to climate change.

12 The proposal reflects the trend and the 

13 power sector to build cleaner plants that take 

14 advantage of modern technologies and motivate 

15 power companies to rethink existing outdated 

16 power plants that are responsible for polluting 

17 our air and water. I hope we will be able to 

18 transition or nation to solar and wind power 

19 technologies in the near, not-too-distant future.

20 This is a personal issue for me, and I 

21 just want to talk a little bit about that. A 

22 year and a half ago, I moved from Richmond, Ohio, 
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1 which is southeast of Cincinnati, which is home 

2 to two coal-fired or coal-burning power plants, 

3 to Downingtown, Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia, 

4 a distance downwind.

5 Our house in Ohio is still on the market, 

6 and we travel back and forth frequently. I have 

7 had the experience of living very close to the 

8 coal-burning power plants on the Ohio River, the 

9 Beckjord Station 5 miles to the north and the 

10 Zimmer plant 5 miles to the south. We lived 

11 right smack in the middle, about a mile from the 

12 Ohio River.

13 It was very common to see smog envelope a 

14 small river town of New Richmond, which is 

15 located a mile south of Beckjord in the morning 

16 and the warmer months. Occasionally, we would 

17 find a dusting of fine particles o our cars and 

18 other outside objects in our yard due to the 

19 nighttime emissions that was landing.

20 Brown smoke poured out of most of the 

21 Beckjord stacks all the time, and the volume 

22 increased noticeably at night. 
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1 According to data from the non-profit 

2 organization, Clean Air Task Force, both power 

3 plants, 2006 emissions statistics for the local 

4 area are very high levels of carbon dioxide. I 

5 don't have this listed, but I'm just going to 

6 talk generally about it.

7 High levels of carbon dioxide, sulfur 

8 dioxide, nitrous oxide, and mercury causing 

9 higher death rates, heart attacks, asthma cases, 

10 chronic bronchitis, sinus problems, which I had 

11 all the time there, and increased hospital 

12 visits.

13 Our home's public water source is the 

14 Ohio River, as it is for most people there. The 

15 58-year-old Beckjord plant has three coal ash 

16 ponds that were inspected in Ohio as having 

17 significant hazard potential from fly ash, bottom 

18 ash, and boiler slag contamination due to earth 

19 slides on the exterior slopes and erosion 

20 gullies.

21 An unusually early powerful tornado -- I 

22 don't know if you remember this. There was a 
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1 slew of them in early March that went through 

2 Indiana and Ohio, touched down in Moscow, Ohio, 

3 and directly hit the Zimmer plant, toppling 

4 electric towers, power lines, and buildings on 

5 site as well as most of the small town. We were 

6 just there. It is in operational mode. It's 

7 fine, but it's an area -- it's tornado country.

8 When I first moved to New Richmond, Ohio, 

9 in 2004, I contacted the Ohio EPA Sierra Club, of 

10 which I'm a member, and the Ohio Citizen Action 

11 Organization as well as talked to many people in 

12 the area with my concerns about the coal-burning 

13 power plants' emissions pollution levels.

14 I was told that this is an ongoing 

15 concern but may take a long time to change. In 

16 fact, some people -- I wasn't going to put this 

17 in, but I'll say it -- said it might take an act 

18 of God to get some changes around here because of 

19 the companies that are established in the power 

20 plant industry in that area.

21 I believe that individuals, communities, 

22 and organizations can make a huge difference in 
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1 protecting the environment and health, and I was 

2 motivated to be involved with the local Sierra 

3 Club and the Ohio Citizen Action Group on the 

4 region's environmental issues, including a 

5 plastics plant that was emitting a lot of 

6 pollution, Lanxess in Addyston, which is on the 

7 other side of the Ohio River. We went canvassing 

8 and talked to people about the high cancer rates, 

9 and that elementary school, which I'm an 

10 elementary school teacher, not at that school, 

11 was closed down because of the pollution that was 

12 coming from directly across the street from that 

13 plant.

14 Power plants and many others in the area 

15 have employed many local residents and supported 

16 the local communities and schools for many years, 

17 establishing very strong relationships. I was 

18 very aware of this as an elementary school 

19 teacher in the town of New Richmond. 

20 As citizens, we need to do what is best 

21 and right for the health and welfare of everyone 

22 through education -- I'm strongly believing in 
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1 that, and I'm also an environmental educator in 

2 the summer -- advocacy and local and Federal 

3 initiatives to regulate the industry and create 

4 opportunities for employment for those people 

5 that may be laid off at other plants.

6 Fortunately, I was relieved to learn last 

7 July 2011 --

8 MR. HARVEY: I have to say it expires. 

9 If you could wrap it up?

10 MS. MANNING: Okay.

11 -- that Duke Energy plan to retire the 

12 Beckjord plant by 2015.

13 Thank you very much.

14 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

15 [Applause.]

16 MR. HARVEY: All right. We have 10 

17 minutes before we adjourn.

18 We have on our list Jay Butera and 

19 Charlotte Leeks, and the question I have for our 

20 organizers, are we going to go past noon, or are 

21 we going to pick up these people at one o'clock?

22 [No response.]
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1 MR. HARVEY: Okay. I'm going to assume, 

2 unless I'm told otherwise, that these are our 

3 last two speakers. Then we're going to adjourn 

4 at noon and reconvene at one o'clock. At one 

5 o'clock, unless I'm told otherwise, we would 

6 begin with Lashawn Martin, Marianne Hilgert and 

7 then go to Susan Edwards and Shannon Fishman.

8 So that's the plan until I hear otherwise 

9 from our organizers.

10 Jay Butera, why don't you start. Spell 

11 your name briefly.

12 MR. BUTERA: Yes. Good morning. My name 

13 is Jay Butera. That's spelled B-U-T-E-R-A.

14 And i'm here to speak with you in two 

15 capacities. One is as founder of an organization 

16 called One Million Calls for Clean Energy, which 

17 I put together to try and give citizens a voice 

18 to express their opinions to the Federal 

19 Government, and I'm going to submit to you a 

20 petition that our members -- this is about 3,500 

21 of our members signed, reading as follows: It's 

22 time to make clean energy an urgent national 
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1 priority. America wants the fast-track plan that 

2 gets us off oil and coal and onto clean energy 

3 path. We want green jobs, climate solutions, and 

4 freedom from fossil fuels.

5 This was originally submitted to Congress 

6 when they were contemplating the America Clean 

7 Energy and Security Act, which I worked very hard 

8 to try and get implemented, which actually passed 

9 the House but never was considered in the Senate 

10 to the great disappointment of me and these 3,500 

11 people. That's why I'm submitting their names to 

12 you.

13 When you hear opposition to the ruling 

14 that's proposed, I think you are going to hear a 

15 lot about the cost. They are going to tell you 

16 that it's going to raise our electric rates and 

17 that it's going to cost jobs.

18 I would like to ask you to consider 

19 another type of cost, and that is the cost of 

20 doing nothing. When they tell you that it will 

21 raise our electric rates, I don't think that

22 those people are considering the true cost of our 
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1 electricity. They may be focused on what the 

2 electric bill is at the end of the month, but 

3 there's a lot of cost not on that bill. We have 

4 the cost of health care. We have the cost of 

5 national security. We have the cost of damaging 

6 our natural systems. Then we have the cost of 

7 climate change, which I think trumps everything.

8 And that bill is coming due. I'd like to 

9 ask you, do you also consider a report that was 

10 put together at the request of Congress by the 

11 National Academy of Sciences? This report was 

12 called "The Hidden Cost of Energy: The Unpriced 

13 Consequence of Energy Production and Use." They 

14 analyzed in great detail the monetized cost of 

15 externalized cost of energy, and they also 

16 studied the cost of climate change, which is a 

17 difficult thing to put a dollar on, but they did.

18 They came up with a range of scenarios 

19 that told us that the cost -- the climate damage 

20 is costing us up to 10 cents per kilowatt hour of 

21 electricity, and that's what they say the cost is 

22 if we perceive with our current energy generation 
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1 portfolio unchanged.

2 Now, that's about equal to what the 

3 average kilowatt hour costs across the United 

4 States, commercial and residential. So what 

5 we're really saying is that electricity costs 

6 twice as much as our electric bills do, and I'd 

7 like to say that in my opinion, that's a very 

8 huge energy tax.

9 So I consider the rule that you've 

10 proposed to be absolutely a cost reduction 

11 program. If we can begin to reduce the costs 

12 that we are incurring on climate change, health 

13 care, it will go a long way to actually reducing 

14 our total cost.

15 I also consider it a jobs program, 

16 because it will create jobs. It will create --

17 it will drive innovation, exportable innovation, 

18 and that is something that we need.

19 So I believe your proposed rule will help 

20 the economy, and there's one other issue I'd like 

21 to mention that's not factored in, in the dollars 

22 and cents, and that's the moral aspect of this 
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1 issue.

2 I personally think no pollution is 

3 tolerable. What right do we really have to foul 

4 our air and water? What right do the coal-fired 

5 power plants have to give me asthma and my son 

6 asthma and to pump mercury into the veins of my 

7 daughters? It's not a right.

8 And it's not just humans that we're 

9 talking about, either. It's also every creature 

10 on earth. The U.S. Naval Research Institute now 

11 projects that the Arctic will be ice-free in the 

12 summer as soon as 2016, plus or minus 3 years.

13 Admiral Titley, oceanographer for the 

14 Navy, says that the Arctic will be ice-free for 

15 at least 4 weeks by 2030. Imagine that! And 

16 what happens to those polar bears who have their 

17 habitat up there? The polar bears cannot stop 

18 climate change.

19 MR. HARVEY: Your time has expired. I'm 

20 sorry.

21 MR. BUTERA: Only we can, and I believe 

22 that your ruling is a good step towards doing 
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1 that. I would urge you to implement it, make it 

2 stick, and enforce it.

3 Thank you very much.

4 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

5 [Applause.]

6 MR. HARVEY: All right. I've been 

7 informed that we're going to -- after Ms. Leeks, 

8 we're going to have two more. We are going to go 

9 to -- I'm having a hard time reading your note 

10 here. I see Shannon Fishman.

11 ATTENDEE: [Speaking off mic.]

12 MR. HARVEY: So who's the second person? 

13 Oh, okay. I'm reading the wrong side of the 

14 paper.

15 Okay. So we're going to go next after 

16 Ms. Leeks -- our final two speakers before lunch 

17 are Elaine Pirozzi and Marianne Hilgert. Okay?

18 So, with that, if you could introduce 

19 yourself?

20 MS. LEEKS: Thank you. Good morning. My 

21 name is Charlotte Leeks. That's L-E-E-K-S. I'm 

22 from Pittsburgh -- let's see -- Pensauken, New 
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1 Jersey, and I'm with the Sierra Club, my first 

2 time speaking.

3 I'm here to just give a little talk about 

4 asthma from a respiratory therapist perspective. 

5 I should have known this, but I just realized 

6 that the atmosphere has high, high amounts of 

7 carbon that is causing asthma to occur in 

8 children, seniors, and people who are 

9 socioeconomically deprived.

10 Asthma. What is asthma? It literally 

11 means difficult breathing. There are certain 

12 factors that are in our atmosphere that are in 

13 the air that will cause an attack. The attack 

14 occurs within our airwaves or our respiratory 

15 tract. It starts with the nose, ends in the 

16 lungs.

17 The respiratory tracts is very sensitive 

18 to these pollutants. If you've ever seen a 

19 patient or a person or child going through an 

20 asthma attack, it will really give you pause to 

21 think as to what are we really doing to our 

22 people. It's a very, very horrible situation 
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1 when you see people strive to breathe, one breath 

2 after the next. It's very difficult for them to 

3 get the air in, to get the air out, because the 

4 tubes, what we call our bronchial tubes, are 

5 actually going into a spasm.

6 Also, there is an antibody response that 

7 rushes the antibodies into the lungs, create 

8 large amount of mucus that is also interfering 

9 with the breathing. So your lungs and tubes are 

10 filling up, and as well as they can't open and 

11 close, get the air in and out like they're 

12 supposed to.

13 So I'm just here to say that we really 

14 need to try to keep our generations healthy, 

15 because as to what is going on right now and from 

16 what I'm learning, it's that the contamination of 

17 the carbon in the atmosphere is not good at all 

18 for people, animals, and the environment that we 

19 all live in.

20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much for your 

21 testimony, Ms. Leeks.

22 I thank you both.
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1 We will go to our final two speakers: 

2 Elaine Pirozzi and Marianne Hilgert. Please come 

3 up to the table.

4 MR. BUTERA: May I give this to you?

5 MR. HARVEY: Yes. We'll put it in the 

6 docket.

7 MR. BUTERA: Thank you.

8 MR. HARVEY: Let's start with Ms. 

9 Pirozzi. I'm sure I'm mispronouncing that.

10 MS. PIROZZI: You're doing it perfectly.

11 MR. HARVEY: Okay. If you can spell your 

12 name, and then we'll start the time.

13 MS. PIROZZI: Okay. Good morning -- or 

14 afternoon. My name is Elaine Pirozzi, and that's 

15 P-I-R-O-Z-Z_I.

16 I live here in Washington, and I'm with 

17 the group, Moms Rising. So I'm not speaking as 

18 an expert, but I'm speaking as a mother.

19 I am very fortunate because I have two 

20 healthy daughters, one of whom just handed you 

21 those booklets about asthma, and the other one is 

22 6. As I see it, my job as a mother is to make 
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1 sure that they stay healthy, and to that end, I 

2 do everything within my power to do. I buy 

3 organic food. I read the labels on our personal 

4 care products to avoid certain chemicals. I make 

5 very careful choices, but yet I strongly suspect 

6 that all of those things that I'm doing don't add 

7 up to much if the air that they're breathing all 

8 day, every day, is not clean.

9 And it's deeply frustrating to me as a 

10 mother that I don't have control over that. 

11 That's one of the things that I have no control 

12 over. So I need to depend on the government. I 

13 need to depend on the EPA to do those things, and 

14 about the only thing I can do is be here today 

15 and talking to you. And that's why I'm here, but 

16 after I leave the room, it's all up to you guys. 

17 And I need you to make the right decision.

18 We need, all of us need you to put our 

19 children ahead of the industrial obvious, and I 

20 know that that's easier said than done, but 

21 that's what has to happen. It's important for my 

22 kids and for all kids, and as mothers, we tend to 
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1 really focus on the children, because that's 

2 where our hearts are. And that also, frankly, 

3 resonates with people, but it's not only the 

4 children that are affected by this.

5 Senior citizens are also 

6 disproportionately affected by pollutants in the 

7 air. So that's our parents, the older 

8 generation, as well as all of us. I mean, nobody 

9 is immune from that, but just to go briefly back 

10 to the kids, I don't expect the government to 

11 love my kids, but I do expect the government to 

12 protect my kids, because as I see it, that's why 

13 they're here.

14 And as ordinary citizens, we depend on 

15 the government to do that and to look out for our 

16 best interest, not for the industry's best 

17 interest but for the people's best interest.

18 So I'm asking you to please do that by 

19 supporting the carbon pollution standard or even 

20 a step further in strengthening the standards for 

21 carbon pollution.

22 Thank you very much.
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1 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

2 And our final speaker before lunch is 

3 Marianne Hilgert, and you can want to introduce 

4 your daughter, if you want.

5 MS. HILGERT: This is Tatiana. She is 4 

6 years old.

7 My name is Marianne Hilgert, and I'm also 

8 here with Moms Rising and as a Latina to ask you 

9 to support the carbon pollution standard.

10 I strongly support these new standards 

11 and commend the EPA for protecting our kids and 

12 families from dangerous air pollution. That's 

13 your job to protect these little ones.

14 Tatiana has been very fortunate. She has 

15 no symptoms of asthma, but I'm here also because 

16 of her older sister, Gabriella. Gabriella is 

17 commonly known as "Gabby," and she was diagnosed 

18 with asthma just at the age of 2. So imagine a 

19 little 2-year-old on this medication.

20 Gabby is now 7 years old and first grade. 

21 Right now, she's taking this medication every 

22 day. This is just her control medication. When 
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1 she's sick, like when she has a cold or another 

2 respiratory infection, she has to take this plus 

3 this. It's most likely some type of antibiotic.

4 Last year, Gabby missed 5 weeks of 

5 kindergarten because of her asthma, and she had 

6 to remain inside for recess for several more 

7 days. She couldn't go outside into the cold. 

8 This year has been a bit better. She's only been 

9 sick for 4 weeks of school.

10 If you don't have a close relative who's 

11 asthmatic, it's probably difficult to understand 

12 the toll emotionally, financially, and 

13 physically, but the illness can take on an entire 

14 family.

15 As a family, we try to do everything we 

16 can in our power to combat this disease. She 

17 eats gluten-free food. We avoid dairy and 

18 processed foods, and she even practices her own 

19 therapy.

20 My husband also, to try to do whatever he 

21 can, he encapsulated our crawl space by himself 

22 to see if that would prevent some of her attacks, 
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1 and as a mother, I'm really worried about my 

2 daughter. I'm worried about the long-term 

3 effects that the antibiotics, the overall and 

4 inhale steroids, and other medicines can have on 

5 her 44-pound body, and I've witnessed the short6 term effects that these steroids and inhaled 

7 steroids have on her and the tantrums that she's 

8 gotten, but I have no other recourse. If not, 

9 she can end up in the hospital.

10 But I do have to remind myself that Gabby 

11 is lucky. She's fortunate that she gets frequent 

12 checkups with the best allergist in the nation. 

13 She has great health insurance, and she lives in 

14 a single-family home where we can control certain 

15 triggers. And I realize that not all Latinos are 

16 as fortunate as her. Nearly one out of every two 

17 Latinos lives in the country's top 25 most ozone18 polluted cities, and Hispanic children are 60 

19 percent more likely to have asthma as compared to 

20 non-Hispanic whites.

21 As a parent, I would like to protect my 

22 daughter and control the asthma effects, but some 
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1 things like the weather, I cannot control. The 

2 extreme temperature variations that we saw here 

3 in the spring were really hard on my daughter's 

4 lungs.

5 We should definitely be doing everything 

6 possible to make our air as clean as possible, 

7 and the very idea of not doing it, of not using 

8 the best technologies that we have in setting 

9 pollution standards, but put public health first 

10 makes absolutely no sense to me, nor does it make 

11 sense to the millions of moms across this nation.

12 As a mother and a Latina, I ask the EPA 

13 swiftly adopt these new pollution standards to 

14 protect all our children and families from the 

15 impact of air pollution.

16 Thank you for your time.

17 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for your 

18 compelling testimony and for sharing your time 

19 with us.

20 So, with that, we will take a lunch 

21 break, and we will reconvene promptly at 1 p.m.

22 Thank you. We are temporarily recessed.
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1 [Lunch recess from 12:08 to 1:06 p.m.]

2 MR. HARVEY: So we will resume our

3 hearing.

4 Good afternoon. I'm going to make a 

5 brief opening statement, and then we will resume 

6 again. My name is Reid Harvey. I'm the Chief of 

7 the Climate Economics Branch in the EPA Office of 

8 Atmospheric Programs. Jim Ketcham-Colwill, also 

9 in the Air Office, and Scott Jordan, also Air 

10 Office.

11 So we're here today to listen to comments 

12 on our proposed carbon pollution standard for new 

13 power plants, and I am not going to go through my 

14 full statement, but I'll just cover some of the 

15 logistics.

16 Today, we are accepting oral comments on 

17 all aspects of our proposal. We'll prepare a 

18 written transcript of the hearing, thanks to our 

19 court reporter. The transcript will be available 

20 as part of the official record for the rule. We 

21 are accepting written comments in the rule until 

22 June 25th. There are handouts outside in the 
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1 registration area for how to submit written 

2 comments, by mail, fax, or electronically, and we 

3 will consider your comments as we move forward 

4 with the final rule.

5 So for this afternoon's portion of the 

6 hearing, it will work as it did this morning. I 

7 will call the speakers to the table in pairs. 

8 When it's your term to speak, I will ask you to 

9 state your name and your affiliation before you 

10 begin. If your name is complicated, we will ask 

11 you to spell your last name for the reporter, and 

12 then we will start the timer.

13 You are limited to 5 minutes. I'd ask 

14 both of you to remain at the table until both of 

15 you have finished speaking. After you finish, we 

16 may ask clarifying questions, but we won't be 

17 responding to your statement.

18 If in addition to the transcript of your 

19 testimony you want to put the full text of your 

20 written comments into the docket, please be sure 

21 to give one of us a copy of those written 

22 comments or provide them to the staff outside at 
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1 the registration table.

2 So we have a timekeeping system, green, 

3 yellow, and red lights, to help track your 5 

4 minutes. The green light will last for 4 

5 minutes. Then that will trigger the yellow light 

6 for 1 minute. The red light is your signal to 

7 stop. I'll give you a few seconds, but if you 

8 haven't stopped, I will remind you to stop and 

9 ask you to wrap up.

10 So our hearing today will continue until 

11 4:30 p.m. in this portion. The other room will 

12 go longer, but that may vary depending on the 

13 number of speakers.

14 I think that is it for logistics.

15 Anything else I missed?

16 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: No, I think that's 

17 it.

18 MR. HARVEY: Okay. Any questions?

19 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: No.

20 MR. HARVEY: Okay. So our first two 

21 speakers are Gary Ewart and Mike Sandler. So 

22 let's start with Mr. Ewart.
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1 MR. EWART: Thank you, and good 

2 afternoon. I'm Gary Ewart. I'm director of 

3 Government Relations with the American Thoracic 

4 Society.

5 MR. HARVEY: Okay. Please speak loudly. 

6 We're a little bit far away.

7 MR. EWART: The acoustics in this room 

8 are a bit challenging.

9 MR. HARVEY: Yeah.

10 MR. EWART: So the American Thoracic 

11 Society is a medical professional organization of 

12 about 15,000 members who research, treat, and 

13 prevent lung diseases, critical care illnesses,

14 and sleep disorder illnesses. As such, the 

15 American Thoracic Society has been interested in 

16 air quality, because air quality has a direct 

17 impact on respiratory disease, and we are one of 

18 the thought leaders on the health effects of air 

19 pollution.

20 Our concern about air pollution has led 

21 us to start to be concerned about global climate 

22 change as well. Most recently, the American 
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1 Thoracic Society held a workshop titled the 

2 Respiratory Health Effects of Global Climate 

3 Change. The workshop was held in May of 2010, 

4 and the workshop document was just recently 

5 published in our journal, the American Journal of 

6 Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine.

7 I'd be happy to share a copy with staff 

8 at a later point.

9 This document laid out some of the 

10 existing research out there that supports that 

11 there is a direct connection between global 

12 climate change and respiratory health. It was 

13 focused mostly on the need for addressing some of 

14 the unanswered research questions as research --

15 excuse me -- as global climate change moves 

16 forward, what are the likely respiratory health 

17 effects, what are some of the mitigation steps 

18 that we can take, and what are the research 

19 questions that need to be answered. I hope that 

20 this document will be of use to EPA.

21 Today, we are speaking in support of the 

22 proposed carbon standard for electric generating 
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1 units. The American Thoracic Society does 

2 believe that the evidence discussing climate 

3 change is compelling and feels that immediate 

4 action at State, local, and international levels 

5 is necessary. We congratulate EPA for taking 

6 this first step.

7 I must say Dr. Robin Gross, who we 

8 intended to have present the testimony today, got 

9 hung up in some of her travel plans. She and I 

10 had an interesting conversation at our annual 

11 meeting just 3 days ago.

12 While it is not useful to use anecdotes 

13 as fact, she has already seen the health effects 

14 of climate change in her practice. Pollen season 

15 is starting earlier. It is going longer, and it 

16 is more intense. This is her observation in her 

17 clinics, is consistent with the predictions of 

18 climate change models.

19 I've had that conversation with several 

20 ATS members who treat people with seasonal 

21 allergies that it is starting early, lasting 

22 longer, is more intense. That means more 
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1 medications, more potential lost workdays, more 

2 asthma exacerbation.

3 Again, these conversations don't 

4 necessarily meet the rigorous scientific review 

5 that the ATS believes is there out in the 

6 literature, but they are indications that climate 

7 change is real and starting to impact folks.

8 I know as a seasonal aller. sufferer, I 

9 have also seen what may be the impacts of global 

10 climate change.

11 The ATC does believe that it is timely 

12 for EPA to move forward with this rule. We will 

13 be submitting more full comments by the June 24th 

14 deadline but believe this is the first in what we 

15 hope is a series of steps that EPA takes to 

16 reduce climate emissions and to protect both the 

17 global health but also the human health, because 

18 we believe there are very real connections 

19 between global climate change and human health.

20 Thank you very much for your time. I'd 

21 be happy to answer any questions.

22 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for your 
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1 testimony. We will wait to raise questions until 

2 both of you speak.

3 Our next speaker is Mike Sandler.

4 MR. SANDLER: Thank you. My name is Mike 

5 Sandler. I'm here speaking as an individual, 

6 although I've been affiliated with various 

7 organizations that work on climate change and 

8 climate protection over the past 10 years.

9 Most recently, I was program manager at 

10 the Sonoma County Regional Climate Protection 

11 Authority, which was an agency linked to the 

12 Sonoma County Transportation Authority, set up to 

13 assist the local governments in Sonoma County, 

14 California, about an hour north of San Francisco, 

15 in achieving their local greenhouse gas reduction 

16 goals.

17 Previously to that, I worked for a 

18 community-based organization called the Climate 

19 Protection Campaign, and I also was an outreach 

20 director for the California Interfaith Power and 

21 Light organization, which works with the faith 

22 community and congregations in reducing their 
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1 greenhouse gas emissions and advocating for 

2 faith-based approaches to stewardship of 

3 creation.

4 So, on behalf of -- well, I can't really 

5 speak on behalf of those agencies, but I know 

6 there are many individuals from those groups that 

7 would like to also provide testimony, and so, 

8 hopefully, next time EPA could host a hearing in 

9 California as well.

10 But, in the meantime, I am now living in 

11 Washington, D.C. I was able to attend today, and 

12 so I'll just go through some of my thoughts on 

13 the standard.

14 First of all, climate change is 

15 happening. It is a threat to life on the planet, 

16 and we need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. 

17 Scientists believe, you know, one of the goals is 

18 80 percent below 1990 levels. We don't exactly 

19 know what those 1990 levels were, and it was back 

20 when the Soviet Union was still around. So 

21 another way to look at those goals would be 

22 around 350 parts per million, which is what the 
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1 350.org organization supports.

2 The United States is the largest per

3 capita emitter of greenhouse gases, and so one 

4 goal globally would be for a global per capita 

5 equity in greenhouse gas emissions. That can be 

6 achieved through a program called Contraction and 

7 Convergence, or C&C, and domestically, a version 

8 of Contraction and Convergence could be a cap and 

9 dividend model or a carbon share model.

10 I have a Web site, carbonshare.org, that 

11 talks about how equal per capita greenhouse gas 

12 emissions can be a basis for valuing the shared 

13 commons of the sky, and there's a book, "Who Owns 

14 the Sky?" which talks more about that.

15 But in the meantime, the EPA is doing its 

16 job by limiting the harm to the global sink in 

17 the atmosphere.

18 Regarding local action, no matter how 

19 visionary local governments or individual 

20 congregations are, they won't be able to address 

21 climate change unless we are able to take on 

22 coal-fired power plants across the country. That 
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1 can't be done effectively in a broad scale at the 

2 State or local level. It needs to happen at the 

3 Federal level.

4 And given the gridlock in Congress today, 

5 Americans will rely on the U.S. EPA to move that 

6 forward using the authority under the Clean Air 

7 Act.

8 Personally, I'll be eagerly awaiting a 

9 performance standard for existing power plants as 

10 the next step, and I hope that that standard 

11 could result in shutting down conventional coal12 fired power plants.

13 This morning in the other room, I heard a 

14 gentleman speak who would fall into the category 

15 of climate deniers or people that don't believe 

16 climate change is actually happening. I'd like 

17 to say a few words about some of those comments 

18 that I heard.

19 I feel that they are manipulating 

20 scientific facts. It feels very desperate for 

21 them to try to save their industry. That is 

22 really endangering the planet, and, basically, 
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1 they're wrong on the facts, but, unfortunately, 

2 for the planet, they are very influential. But 

3 we don't really have time to allow them to 

4 distract us from the important work we are doing.

5 Regarding some details on the proposed 

6 standard, I would support a standard of less than 

7 a thousand pounds CO2 per megawatt hour. You had 

8 recommended in the range of perhaps 950. I would 

9 also be supportive of 850.

10 In terms of the 30-year averaging, I do 

11 have some concerns about that. I believe the 

12 power plants should be able to start at less than 

13 a thousand pounds per day measured on a daily 

14 basis and be able to achieve that throughout 

15 their operations.

16 MR. HARVEY: Mr. Sandler, your time has 

17 expired.

18 MR. SANDLER: Okay, thank you.

19 MR. HARVEY: You can wrap up.

20 MR. SANDLER: All right. So I think 

21 that's all I have to say. Thank you for allowing 

22 me to speak today.
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1 MR. HARVEY: Great. Well, thank you both 

2 for sharing your testimony with us. We 

3 appreciate your taking the time to do that.

4 We are sort of on abeyance, on hold, 

5 until we have more names to --

6 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: Gentlemen, enjoy 

7 the rest of your day.

8 MR. SANDLER: Thank you.

9 MR. HARVEY: Myra Blake, please join us. 

10 So if you'll just introduce yourself again, and 

11 then we'll get started.

12 MS. BLAKE: Good afternoon. My name is 

13 Myra Blake. That's M-Y-R-A, B-L-A-K-E. I'm an 

14 attorney for the Southern Environmental Law 

15 Center, here representing the Fall-line Alliance 

16 for a Clean Environment, the Ogeechee 

17 Riverkeeper, and the Southern Alliance for Clean 

18 Energy.

19 I'd like to start off by saying as a 

20 general matter, we applaud EPA's efforts to 

21 regulate greenhouse gas emissions from entities 

22 like coal-fired power plants.
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1 My comments today, however, focus on 

2 EPA's proposal to create a category of 

3 transitional sources that would be exempt from 

4 the greenhouse gas rule if they commence 

5 construction within 12 months of publication of 

6 the proposal in the Federal Register.

7 While we have concerns about the legality 

8 of the transitional source category itself, I 

9 will limit my comments today to explaining how 

10 and why one particular source, Plant Washington, 

11 does not and should not fall into the exemption.

12 Plant Washington is a proposed 850-

13 megawatt coal-fired power plant. It would be 

14 located in Washington County, Georgia, and it is 

15 being developed by an entity called 

16 POWER4Georgians, or P4G.

17 There are three main reasons that the 

18 facility should not be exempted from the 

19 greenhouse gas rule. First, it does not meet the 

20 definition of a transitional source, and, second, 

21 it doesn't even fit the rationale for exempting 

22 transitional sources. Finally, the 12-month 
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1 construction deadline does not ensure that 

2 transitional sources have significant costs to 

3 date and only encourage as unnecessary facilities 

4 that have not even been fully conceived yet to be 

5 rushed into construction, such as Plant 

6 Washington.

7 The proposed rule defines transitional 

8 sources and sources that have a complete permit 

9 that meets the requirements of the PSC program 

10 prior to April 13th, 2012. Plant Washington does 

11 not meet this definition.

12 EPA listed Plant Washington as a 

13 potential transitional source in the proposed 

14 rule, because it did not have complete 

15 information on the status of Plant Washington's 

16 permit, but EPA has since acknowledged, and it 

17 has become clear, that Plant Washington did not 

18 have a complete permit by the April 13th 

19 deadline.

20 EPA recognized this in a recent briefing 

21 before the Court of Appeals of the D.C. Circuit, 

22 and it rejected POWER4Georgians' contention that 
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1 Plant Washington did, in fact, have a complete 

2 permit by that date.

3 Plant Washington's air permit is 

4 currently under going amendments, because 

5 previous version of the permit did not comply 

6 with the Clean Air Act, and in short, P4G did not 

7 have authorization to build or construct Plant 

8 Washington by the April 13th deadline.

9 Second, Plant Washington does not fit 

10 EPA's rationale for exempting transitional 

11 sources, because it was not a fully developed 

12 facility that was poised to commence construction 

13 by the deadline. POWER4Georgians has not made 

14 significant investments in Plant Washington, and 

15 it has not made significant advances in the 

16 design of Plant Washington. Many elements of 

17 Plant Washington remain to be determined, 

18 including the design of its boiler and many of 

19 its emission control devices, and although 

20 POWER4Georgians claims that it has spent 30 

21 million on Plant Washington so far, it has not 

22 provided, as far as we know, any verification of 
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1 this amount.

2 There is no indication that P4G has 

3 contracted for any supporting services, such as 

4 the sale of electricity, and it does not even 

5 appear that P4G has purchased any land in which 

6 to site Plant Washington.

7 And even if P4G has spent what it claims, 

8 this is less than 1.5 percent of the total 

9 projected project cost of 2.1 billion.

10 In addition, the majority of Plant 

11 Washington's funders have pulled out at this 

12 point, and P4G has not been able to attract new 

13 funders, because it has not been able to show the 

14 need for Plant Washington or that it would be 

15 competitive with other existing energy sources. 

16 And, moreover, P4G has stated that it itself has 

17 never planned to build or operate Plant 

18 Washington, despite contrary statements 

19 previously. In sum, P4G was nowhere ready to 

20 construct Plant Washington by the deadline.

21 Finally, the requirement to commence 

22 construction within 12 months only encourages 
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1 half-baked and unnecessary facilities to be 

2 rushed into construction. In the past, sources 

3 have gained the definition of commencing 

4 construction by taking minor actions, such as 

5 pouring foundations, and this, therefore, does 

6 not ensure that only facilities that had 

7 significant stranded costs will be exempted from 

8 the rule.

9 If Plant Washington is classified as a 

10 transitional source in the final rule, this would 

11 create a perverse incentive for the facility to 

12 be hastily constructed.

13 And, most importantly, all of this 

14 matters because Plant Washington will be a 

15 significant emitter of carbon dioxide emissions, 

16 and to put it in perspective, it will submit more 

17 CO2 than about half the countries in the world

18 individually. This would undermine President 

19 Obama's goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions 

20 by 17 percent of 2005 levels by 2020.

21 In conclusion, for all these reasons, 

22 Plant Washington should not be accepted.
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1 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much, Ms. 

2 Blake. Your timing is perfect.

3 MS. BLAKE: Thank you.

4 MR. HARVEY: Two seconds.

5 Questions?

6 [No response.]

7 MR. HARVEY: Okay. Thank you very much 

8 for your testimony.

9 MS. BLAKE: Thank you. Thank you.

10 MR. HARVEY: Okay. So we're on hold.

11 [Pause.]

12 MR. HARVEY: All right. So we're going 

13 to go back on the record and resume.

14 Our next two speakers -- and I apologize 

15 in advance for mispronouncing your name -- Dawud 

16 Ummah and Rita Kantarowski.

17 Okay. So if both of you could join us at 

18 the table up front. Mr. Ummah, I'd like you to 

19 go first, and if you could pronounce your name 

20 correctly and also spell it. I'd ask both of 

21 you. That will help our reporter to be accurate. 

22 So whenever you're ready.
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1 MR. UMMAH: Actually, the name is Dawud 

2 Ummah.

3 MR. HARVEY: Okay.

4 MR. UMMAH: Dawud is spelled D-A-W-U-D, 

5 Ummah, U-M-M-A-H.

6 MR. HARVEY: Great.

7 MR. UMMAH: Well, good afternoon, 

8 gentlemen. My name is Dawud Ummah. I'm here 

9 from the great State of Maine, and I'm a proud 

10 member of the NAACP Portland Branch. I served 10 

11 years in the U.S. Air Force from 1981 to 1991 

12 with 8 months being served in the Persian Gulf 

13 War. Once I got out of the military, I had made 

14 a decision that I was going to earn my living 

15 with less destruction to the planet as well as 

16 sharing resources with offerings of neighbors. I 

17 wanted to do this with less pollution to the air, 

18 water, the environment. So, as a result, I just 

19 decided to move up to Maine to become a farmer.

20 I decided I wanted to do more of an 

21 effort of growing food, good healthy food for our 

22 neighbors and for ourselves, versus killing 
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1 people that I really didn't know.

2 I prefer to develop property in a way 

3 where it could be utilized for the benefit of our 

4 community versus destroying property and creating 

5 more pollution in the environment.

6 So I joined different organizations, the 

7 organization that was doing things that was 

8 similar. I found that the NAACP, the Cumberland 

9 County Extension, Maine's Veterans for Peace, the 

10 Nature Conservancy, the Biodiversity Research 

11 Institution, and Education Ecology, these are 

12 some of the organizations that I have been 

13 working with. These organizations work directly 

14 and indirectly on the effects of carbon 

15 pollution, and they are creating jobs now and for 

16 the future.

17 We know that this is the start of a 

18 cleanup process, trying to clean up the 

19 industrial carbon pollution, which was basically 

20 started -- which have basically started this 

21 global warming process. We figure that once we 

22 get this started that it would ignite and 
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1 generate some good thinking in our students and 

2 some of the people that surround us. This way, 

3 it will probably create some jobs for the up and 

4 coming young folks in and around the area of 

5 environmental safety.

6 We know that car pollution is one of the 

7 things that contribute to carbon pollution; 

8 however, carbon pollution from coal-fired power 

9 plants is the largest, largely to blame for the 

10 climate change in our area.

11 Maine is actually losing its outdoor 

12 heritage. It's known for its outdoors. It's 

13 been known for -- its outdoors has been known as 

14 a vacation land. However, each year, power 

15 plants dump at least 2 billion pounds -- or 2 

16 billion tons of dangerous carbon pollution in our 

17 air in Portland.

18 While African Americans, immigrants, 

19 refugees, and people from countries of color 

20 normally find themselves living around these 

21 toxic areas, especially in Portland, they have 

22 what they call these toxic sites, which they 
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1 build. Because we have immigrants and refugees 

2 coming into that area, they have built more 

3 housing on these particular properties. So it's 

4 causing what we call a bad and very serious case 

5 of asthma for most of the people.

6 Maine has the highest rate of asthma in 

7 the country. Approximately 10 percent of the 

8 adults in Maine suffer with asthma compared to 

9 something like 7.8 percent nationwide. 10.7 

10 percent of Maine children has asthma compared to 

11 8.9 nationwide.

12 About 16.5 percent of the non-whites have 

13 asthma that live in Maine right now. About 

14 128,000 people in the State of Maine are actually 

15 affected, 23,000 of them being children.

16 MR. HARVEY: Mr. Ummah, your time 

17 expired. If you could just bring it to a close.

18 MR. UMMAH: Well, basically, what I'm 

19 basically saying is Maine is in this avenue or in 

20 a way in which the pollution is coming up that 

21 way, and it's causing quite a bit of destruction 

22 there. And what I'm basically asking, if I can, 
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1 is that, you know, being that I just recently 

2 returned out of the military, is there anything 

3 that you guys could see in this process to help 

4 as far as the agriculture production in Maine? 

5 Because a lot of veterans are coming there, and 

6 they have fallen into homeless situations, but 

7 agriculture is the thing that's going to plow 

8 Maine forward. And we definitely need a lot of 

9 help in that, because some of the efforts that 

10 we've put forward could be enhanced by your help.

11 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. Thank you very 

12 much for sharing that testimony with us.

13 Our next speaker is Rita Kantarowski.

14 MS. KANTAROWSKI: Good work.

15 MR. HARVEY: Okay. If you could spell 

16 your last name?

17 MS. KANTAROWSKI: Sure. My first name is 

18 Rita, R-I-T-A. My last name is Kantarowski, K-A19 N-T-A-R-O-W-S-K-I.

20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

21 MS. KANTAROWSKI: I am also a member of 

22 the NAACP in Boston, Massachusetts.
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1 I live -- I'm from Jamaica Plain, which 

2 is a neighborhood in the City of Boston. I'm 

3 lucky enough to live near the Emerald Necklace, a 

4 series of parks, public parks and spaces that was 

5 developed by Frederick Law Olmsted and originally 

6 was a streetcar suburb of the inner city.

7 I'm not a scientist. I'm a community 

8 person. My thoughts are not in many statistics 

9 but are more conceptual in things that I think 

10 about that don't make sense.

11 So I live in this green space, and yet in 

12 my neighborhood, there are pretty dramatically 

13 increased rates of asthma as well as other 

14 respiratory diseases, particularly in children as 

15 well as adults. And I have to ask myself why. I 

16 thought living in a space where there was a lot 

17 of green space would be healthy and levels of 

18 pollution would be reduced.

19 We have traditional pollutants, which 

20 create the smog or air pollution that I 

21 understand is made worse by CO2 emissions.

22 I think about this in similar terms of 
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1 taking certain medicines and drinking alcohol. 

2 It potentiates the strength of the drug, and 

3 that's how I conceptualize how CO2 works with --

4 to create even badder air.

5 And I have a lot of trouble understanding 

6 how those in power, those that are the heads of 

7 power companies and plants and coal-fired plants 

8 and industry, how they -- why they resist, you 

9 know, where is the self preservation, why they 

10 resist controls and measures on air. I just 

11 don't understand it. Where is the self12 preservation in the world that they and we all 

13 are leaving our legacy to our children and future 

14 generations? I don't understand it.

15 Does profit really outweigh a healthy 

16 life? Is it possible that polluters site 

17 facilities in areas where there are more 

18 populations of color? It seems to be so in terms 

19 of the studies that I have seen. Is this 

20 targeted to people who lack, perhaps, the power 

21 to be able to try to prevent this?

22 I think the statistics are incredible to 
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1 look at facing that race is a determinant factor 

2 in areas of high air pollution in communities of 

3 color. We need environmental justice.

4 It reminds me of something I was reading 

5 on the Internet about the development of using 

6 antisepsis, antisepsis the germ theory in the 

7 early 1800s, which was the simple act of doctors 

8 washing their hands between patients or between 

9 one procedure to another.

10 At that time, doctors everywhere were 

11 reluctant to adopt it, partly because of the 

12 denial that antisepsis eliminated, the horror at 

13 the implication that they themselves were the 

14 cause of many preventable deaths, and I think 

15 it's so true when we look at our environment.

16 All this denial and death because they 

17 could not admit that they should just simply wash 

18 their hands between patients and procedures. 

19 Doctors then knew the validation of the germ 

20 theory, but most did not change for many years.

21 Is it the same today related to CO2 and 

22 other pollutants? We have the validation of the 
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1 problems, but yet so many refuse to believe or 

2 act.

3 I've spent my professional life working 

4 with refugees, people that were displaced by 

5 political persecution and often associated with 

6 catastrophic weather. It forced them to run for 

7 their lives, and they were originally, initially 

8 resettled in the United States. And what I saw 

9 was that the rule of law is easily usurped by 

10 catastrophic weather.

11 I helped some of the hundreds of 

12 thousands of refugees that fled from the Horn of 

13 Africa because of political persecution and 

14 drought. Now more than 20 years, we know that 

15 virtually there's no government in Somalia.

16 MR. HARVEY: I have to tell you, your 

17 time has expired.

18 MS. KANTAROWSKI: I am just about 

19 finished.

20 Those with discretionary income can 

21 choose where they live to breathe cleaner air, 

22 but we can't escape, no matter where we move, 
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1 catastrophic weather, and I find it hard to 

2 believe that people who eschew clean air do so at 

3 their own risk. I urge you to help all of us to 

4 take our heads out of the sand, to understand and 

5 recognize the dangers of greenhouse gases for 

6 current and future generations.

7 Thank you so much.

8 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for coming down 

9 from Maine and Massachusetts to share your 

10 testimony with us.

11 MS. KANTAROWSKI: You heard from New 

12 England.

13 MR. HARVEY: Next, Sheila Brown and 

14 Elbridge James.

15 MR. JAMES: Do you need two?

16 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry?

17 MR. JAMES: If I have a written 

18 statement, do you --

19 MR. HARVEY: Yeah. We'll certainly take 

20 it, and we'll put it in the docket. You can give 

21 it to us before or afterwards, whichever you 

22 prefer. 
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1 Great. So let's start with Ms. Brown. 

2 If you could just introduce yourself and your 

3 affiliation, and then we'll start the timer.

4 MS. BROWN: Well, greetings to each of 

5 you. Thank you so much for having me here to 

6 speak on behalf on behalf of the Georgia State 

7 Conference NAACP where I serve on the Executive 

8 Committee, and as an individual citizen concerned 

9 about environmental issues, I have prepared a 

10 statement, because I get long-winded, so that I'm 

11 going to prepare and stay on my time portion.

12 What I'd like to share is that I'm Sheila 

13 Brown, again, and I live in Rockdale County, 

14 Georgia. Over the course of the last 10 years, 

15 I've lived in three States and the District of 

16 Columbia. During that time, I've had the 

17 privilege of studying, working, and developing 

18 professionally in communities largely populated 

19 by African Americans and Latinos.

20 I'll never forget the first day of my one 

21 year at Texas Southern University, Thurgood 

22 Marshall School of Law, notably a Historically 
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1 Black College. It was a sunny day in August of 

2 2006 as I walked from my dorm apartment to the 

3 main campus. Bright and early on that Monday 

4 morning, everything seemed to be going perfectly 

5 until suddenly an invisible cloud of toxins 

6 descended on the area and filled my lungs with 

7 the most putrid and all-invasive stench from 

8 something out of nowhere. I held my breath. I 

9 covered my nose, and I walked as fast as I could, 

10 but I just couldn't seem to escape that smell.

11 What really bothered me, though, is that 

12 no one else could tell me where it was coming 

13 from, and no one else seemed to be as equally 

14 offended as I was. That unfortunate even 

15 happened many times over the course of my 

16 studies.

17 Now I live in Georgia, but, recently, I 

18 had a very similar experience while shopping at a 

19 popular retailer in the area. As my son and I 

20 headed to the front of the store to pay for our 

21 items, we were distracted by one of the most 

22 grotesque and horrible odors we've ever smelled. 
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1 The smell was so unbearable that I stopped a 

2 store manager, and I asked him where is it coming 

3 from and what was he going to do about it.

4 The store manager tried to calmly 

5 reassure me that everything was okay, and that 

6 from time to time, that smell came into the store 

7 due to a nearby power plant. That, despite the 

8 heavy stench, everyone continued shopping and 

9 working like nothing happened. This reminded me 

10 of my experience in law school in Houston and 

11 made me question why this type of occurrence kept 

12 happening in areas where I frequented, I lived --

13 and where I lived. Why didn't anyone else seem 

14 equally offended by the stench, and was there an 

15 environmental explanation behind the smell events 

16 in Houston and on Conyers, Georgia, or was this 

17 just a coincidence?

18 My inquiry led me to the work of a Dr. 

19 Robert Bullard, who is an expert in environmental 

20 issues. Dr. Bullard has a body of work that 

21 examines the environmental factors affecting 

22 African Americans and other minority communities.
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1 In 1979, Dr. Bullard noticed that all the 

2 city dumps in Houston were located in and around 

3 neighborhoods inhabited primarily by African 

4 Americans, despite the fact that this group only 

5 made up 25 percent of Houston's total population. 

6 Although that was decades ago, there's still 

7 evidence today of what Dr. Bullard coined 

8 "environmental racism." He explains that on 

9 average, African Americans emit about 20 percent 

10 of greenhouse gases, yet 68 percent of African 

11 Americans live within the 30 miles of coal-fired 

12 power plants. In comparison, only 56 percent of 

13 whites and 39 percent of Latinos live in such 

14 proximity to these coal-fired plants.

15 The State of Georgia in particular has a 

16 very pronounced history of racial inequality and 

17 environmental injustice towards blacks. In 2009, 

18 African Americans made up 30.2 percent of 

19 Georgia's population. However, two of the three 

20 proposed coal-fired power plants that sought 

21 permits in Georgia south locations in 

22 predominantly African-American counties. In 
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1 fact, all three of the proposed coal-fired power 

2 plants located in Georgia cities were located in 

3 Georgia cities with African-American populations 

4 ranging from nearly 50 to 60 percent.

5 African-American and poorer communities 

6 are also being targeted by nuclear energy 

7 companies. In fact, the Shell Bluff community, 

8 which is in Burke County, Georgia, has an 

9 African-American population of 51 percent and is 

10 the proposed site for a new nuclear power plant 

11 that's expected to produce a thousand megawatts.

12 Currently, there's a heated battle 

13 ensuing right in Lithonia, Georgia, where I 

14 worship. It's over a gasification plant. 

15 Lithonia consists of 80-percent African 

16 Americans. The board of commissioners for the 

17 DeKalb County voted to allow gasification, 

18 despite the angry protest of DeKalb County 

19 residents and community activist, including the 

20 DeKalb County NAACP, Operation LEAD, and Citizens 

21 for a Healthy and Safe Environment, which grew 

22 out of this movement to protest the gasification 
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1 plant.

2 It also consists of local churches and 

3 other civic groups. These groups expressed grave 

4 concerns about the potential exposure of toxic 

5 emissions from facilities, truck traffic, and 

6 diesel emissions. DeKalb County's decision, 

7 however, to issue a special land permit is not 

8 unchallenged. These groups have banned together 

9 to sue the county and seek injunction on the 

10 gasification plant's construction.

11 I hope African Americans --

12 MR. HARVEY: Ms. Brown, your time has 

13 expired, so if you could --

14 MS. BROWN: Okay, sure.

15 I hope African Americans and other 

16 disadvantaged communities take note of what's 

17 happening and draw strength from the activism 

18 taking place in DeKalb County, and I also urge 

19 the EPA to continue to eradicate environmental 

20 racism and injustice and study the impact that 

21 it's had in the past and currently has on African 

22 American, Hispanic, and other disadvantaged 
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1 communities.

2 Thank you so much for your time.

3 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

4 Okay. Our next speaker is Elbridge 

5 James.

6 MS. JAMES: Should I say?

7 MR. HARVEY: Yeah. You can say. It's 

8 just less disruptive if both of you stay.

9 MS. JAMES: I won't be so long.

10 I'm Elbridge James. I'm here on behalf 

11 of the Maryland State NAACP. I am here 

12 representing our thousand members and families 

13 who support the standards being set by the EPA 

14 right at this time.

15 I speak only from one who would benefit 

16 the increased protection of the clean air, but 

17 for the millions of Marylanders, including the 

18 elderly and the infirmed who every day experience 

19 a quality of life that is either diminished or 

20 improved by the result of the forces that create 

21 the air that we breathe.

22 I had an opportunity to have the 
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1 experiences of those who have suffered, you know, 

2 who have suffered bad, from bad, ill health and 

3 things of this nature because of bad air, 

4 although I did suffer the pain of watching my 

5 mother who had lung problems and eventually died 

6 from not having clean air standards at her 

7 disposal.

8 We know that pollution and toxins such as 

9 mercury, arson, led, sulfur dioxide, and nitrogen 

10 oxide are killing us. They create a haze and an 

11 ozone level that affects primarily all 

12 Marylanders but have concentrations where there 

13 are, in fact, more African Americans, Latino, and 

14 the poor.

15 In fact, I'm here today not to speak on 

16 just for African Americans but the poor, the 

17 disadvantaged, whether they're white, Asian, 

18 Native American, or whomever. They have less 

19 voice. They have less ability to talk to you 

20 with regard to needing the help.

21 I'm also here as a lobbyist for the State 

22 of Maryland NAACP, whose work with our 
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1 legislature to in fact develop clean air 

2 standards and health standards that benefit our 

3 community. We have passed legislation that are 

4 giving more greater health care, but as we pass 

5 that legislation, we talk to the professionals. 

6 We notice that a lot of the illness and the 

7 trauma is coming from folks that have lung 

8 problems and have health-related problems that 

9 are either caused by or aggravated by the ability 

10 to breathe or live in areas that have clean air.

11 I don't want to see a community, I don't 

12 want to see a country that's divided by those of 

13 us who live in and around nuclear power plants, 

14 coal power plants, or other plants that burn 

15 sulfur fumes that create health problems in our 

16 communities.

17 I used to reside in Philadelphia, and if 

18 you know about Philadelphia, it is one of the 

19 dirtiest places on the face of this earth, in the 

20 United States at least, and some of that problem 

21 stems from the fact that the toxic and the odors 

22 and the emissions that come out of our cars and 
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1 power plants.

2 I moved away, have felt better, have 

3 lived longer. I'm a senior citizen, so I know 

4 the benefit of having clean air, and I'm saying 

5 the rest of this country knows that.

6 In my report, which I am submitting to 

7 you, there was the Maryland Clean Air Act, and 

8 that Maryland Clean Air Act, which we helped pass 

9 with the governor and the legislature, sought to 

10 improve the quality of air in Maryland. But one 

11 of the results of the Clean Air Act and Clean Air 

12 Report, the Clean Air Progress Report in 

13 Maryland, is the fact that we're still suffering 

14 from what is happening outside of our State. We 

15 find that, in fact, Maryland just cannot do it by 

16 itself. It has to have Federal Government 

17 through EPA standards that raise the level of 

18 quality of air that all our citizens in fact 

19 enjoy.

20 This is not new. We have looked upon the 

21 Federal Government to work with businesses and 

22 industry to find a partnership that can establish 
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1 regulations that benefit all our citizens, but, 

2 in fact, when the industry either drags its feet 

3 or is incapable of providing those standards, we 

4 look as citizens to the Federal Government to 

5 protect our interests.

6 You did it when we eliminated lead gas 

7 out of our cars. You've done it when, in fact, 

8 we said that children should not be in the 

9 workplace. You've done it when, in fact, we 

10 removed asbestos from our homes and our 

11 workplace, and you're doing it now when we're 

12 saying the fact is that all citizens should have 

13 health care coverage the benefits and protects 

14 and gives a quality of life. We say this needs 

15 to continue.

16 As far as the industry, we look at the 

17 industry as being profitable and having the 

18 capacity, maybe not the will but the capacity to 

19 meet those standards. For years, they have said 

20 that the current clean air standards were 

21 bankrupt, and, well, they're doing quite well, 

22 and they can do quite well. And I ask the 
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1 industry, who are you in business for? You're 

2 providing a service and a product to the 

3 consumer, and you're killing the consumer on the 

4 long run. If you do not provide us with the 

5 ability to live and to work and to be able to pay 

6 for those products, how, in fact, are you serving 

7 your shareholders and others?

8 We said that to the auto industry. 

9 They've improved mileage. We've said to the food 

10 and agriculture industry, and they have improved 

11 the quality of the food that we consume. We say 

12 clean air, like clean water, go hand in hand, and 

13 we need these standards improved.

14 Will there be some difficulties? Yes. 

15 But we expect industry and EPA to work together 

16 to make this happen. The NAACP supports your 

17 efforts and ask you that you continue to strive 

18 for us, your consumer, your constituency, the 

19 citizens, the residents of the State of Maryland 

20 and the United States.

21 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much, both of 

22 you, for your thoughtful statements. We 
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1 appreciate your time.

2 MS. BROWN: Thank you.

3 MR. HARVEY: We are going to go off the 

4 record. We don't have any current folks waiting.

5 [Recess taken from 1:50 to 1:57 p.m.]

6 MR. HARVEY: All right. We are going to 

7 get started. We are going to resume our hearing 

8 today.

9 Our next speakers are Sarah Saylor and 

10 Roger Diedrich. If you could come up to the 

11 table, both of you. I'll ask Ms. Saylor to speak 

12 first. I'd like both of you to wait there until 

13 the other is finished. Then if we have 

14 questions, we'll pose them to you, and then 

15 you'll both leave at the same time. So please be 

16 seated.

17 If you could start just by saying your 

18 name, spelling your last name in particular, and 

19 if you're affiliated with a group, that as well, 

20 and we'll start the timer. You'll have 5 

21 minutes.

22 MS. SAYLOR: I am Sarah Saylor. The last 
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1 name is S as in Sam, A-Y-L-O-R, and I'm 

2 affiliated with Earthjustice.

3 I come today not only on behalf of 

4 Earthjustice but also to share the personal 

5 remarks of some of our supporters as well as my 

6 own comments.

7 From Wasilla to Wauwatosa to West 

8 Virginia and Washington, the folks on our roles 

9 support not only this standard, but they support 

10 EPA taking the next step as well.

11 While the agency will collect over a 

12 million like-minded comments, the sheer 

13 repetition of these words, both written and 

14 spoken, are a clear call for progress.

15 Rachel Bruce of Gainesville, Florida, 

16 wrote, "Thank you for using the Clean Air Act as 

17 it was intended." She was not a plant. We echo 

18 Rachel, though, with our congratulations to the 

19 agency for taking a critical step toward 

20 compliance with the Clean Air Act and its duty 

21 recognized by the Supreme Court to confront the 

22 challenges presented by our conclusion and the 
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1 climate destruction that it's causing.

2 The impacts of rising temperatures on air 

3 quality cannot be denied. They are well 

4 documented, and scientists and public health 

5 official have spoken and continue to speak to 

6 this, as do our supporters.

7 A.T. Young in Langley, Washington, 

8 writes, "The health of generations to come will 

9 benefit by making good decisions about air 

10 quality now."

11 And Dottie Thomas in Wheeling, West 

12 Virginia, writes, "As a resident of the Upper 

13 Ohio Valley, one of the worst pollution areas in 

14 the country, and as an asthma sufferer, I 

15 strongly support the EPA moving forward.

16 I personally was in middle school when I 

17 first learned about the overabundance of carbon 

18 in our atmosphere. I thought for certain our 

19 nation's leaders were going to immediately tackle 

20 the problem, because that's what national leaders 

21 -- and that's the sort of thing that national 

22 leaders do.
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1 In my college years, I learned that our 

2 nation had failed to join other leading nations 

3 of the world in ratifying the Kyoto Protocol. 

4 When I moved to D.C. in 2001, the environmental 

5 issue of greatest concern here in Washington was 

6 whether to drill for oil in the wildlife refuge 

7 in the Arctic.

8 Once Congress finally turns its attention 

9 to legislation to carbon pollution, the debate 

10 seemed to evolve quickly into a conversation 

11 about which part of the Clean Air Act we were 

12 going to sacrifice in the name of cleaner air.

13 It's been 20 years. This former eighth 

14 grader could not be more frustrated with the lack 

15 of national leadership on this issue.

16 Then I saw this from our supporter, 

17 Jennifer Horn. She's in Chesterfield, Virginia. 

18 She writes, "I work as a middle school science 

19 educator in rural Central Virginia. I am 

20 extremely concerned about climate change." She 

21 continues, "I believe it's terrible that the USA 

22 is so negligent regarding regulating carbon 
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1 emissions. I know there is tremendous amount of 

2 pressure from Big Coal/Big Oil, and you are about 

3 all we have to try to make the situation better."

4 Enthusiasm for your progress here at EPA 

5 on setting standards for the next generation of 

6 coal-fired power plants, indeed fossil fuel-fired 

7 priority-setting, is as great as the anticipation 

8 of controls on today's polluters.

9 Claire Rintelman in Wauwatosa, 

10 Washington, writes -- or sorry. That's in 

11 Wisconsin. She writes, "We're seeing the effects 

12 of global warming. We need to move forward today 

13 with stronger standards."

14 Today, we are encouraged by EPA's express 

15 commitment to turn next to the existing fleet of 

16 power plants. There is no question that we have 

17 to reduce carbon emissions from these plants in 

18 the very near term if we want to fend off the 

19 most pressing threats posed by climate change. 

20 We urge you to take this step expeditiously as 

21 the Clean Air Act requires.

22 I'd like to thank the Environmental 
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1 Protection Agency and the representatives here 

2 with us today for the opportunity to comment and 

3 for this proposal, which is an extremely welcome 

4 step toward reducing carbon pollution from new 

5 fossil fuel electric-generating units. Whatever 

6 further encouragement you need to finalize, if 

7 not strengthen the current proposal, I hope my 

8 comments will provide it.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

11 The next speaker is Roger Diedrich. I'm 

12 not sure I'm pronouncing your last name right.

13 MR. DIEDRICH: "Diedrich." Yeah.

14 MR. HARVEY: If you could spell your last 

15 name, please? And also, speak into the 

16 microphone, if you could, too.

17 MR. DIEDRICH: My name is Roger Diedrich. 

18 That's D-I-E-D-R-I-C-H. I am a retired analyst, 

19 and I live in Virginia.

20 I support the carbon pollution standards, 

21 because I accept as reality the warming of the 

22 climate to be the greatest threat ever to our 
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1 environment. I also know that there has been 

2 enormous resistance to taking action, but EPA 

3 clearly has the science. Those who oppose your 

4 efforts will find themselves on the wrong side of 

5 history very soon.

6 You should proceed with enacting carbon 

7 pollution standards, because it's inevitable, and 

8 it will remove uncertainty that the utilities 

9 businesses face and allow them to plan for a 

10 better future and create jobs in a new 

11 environment.

12 In my State of Virginia, we wind up with 

13 less coal-burn for electricity, but our utilities 

14 have been very resistant to making the necessary 

15 changes. A future with offshore wind farms and 

16 solar panels in every big box store would be very 

17 welcome. There's no reason to think that would 

18 be difficult.

19 The Washington, D.C., area is an area for 

20 fine particulates and from ozone. So this new 

21 standard will have benefits in that regard also.

22 If I move it even further evidence of the 
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1 warming problem, yesterday my county supervisor 

2 gave us information on the heightened threat for 

3 mosquitoes and ticks brought on by the warm 

4 winter last year, so another thing to be 

5 concerned about. So we don't need these kinds of 

6 things.

7 I'll be 70 tomorrow. So, in another 10 

8 years or so, I'll be in one of the threatened 

9 groups from these impacts as a senior citizen. 

10 Please proceed with all due haste and enact 

11 carbon standards.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. HARVEY: We wish you a Happy Birthday 

14 a day in advance.

15 Thank you for your testimony, both of 

16 you. Thank you for joining us.

17 Our next speakers are Arretta Keefer and 

18 Keisha Pendleton, and then on deck are Whitney 

19 Byrd and Joe Elcox.

20 And your name is?

21 MS. KEEFER: Arretta Keefer.

22 MR. HARVEY: Okay. Is Keisha Pendleton 
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1 here?

2 MS. KEEFER: First of all, I want to 

3 thank you for the --

4 MR. HARVEY: Hold on one second. Let's 

5 just let Ms. Pendleton sit down. You can sit 

6 wherever you like.

7 Okay.

8 MS. KEEFER: I'm Arretta Keefer.

9 I'd like to begin with this statement --

10 actually a question. Did you know that the first 

11 air pollution regulations were passed in England 

12 to reduce the emissions from burning coal? And 

13 this was done in 1273 A.D. Did you know that? 

14 1273 A.D.

15 In 1300 A.D., King Edward II passed down 

16 the following decree: Whosoever shall be found 

17 guilty of burning coal shall suffer the loss of 

18 his head. A little drastic, but it was very 

19 effective.

20 Well, I'm here because I'm not a 

21 scientist. I'm not in the medial profession. 

22 I'm not involved in the environment per se as a 
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1 professional, but I have long since supported the 

2 balance of nature, and I understand its 

3 importance. However, I also understand that 

4 people are not motivated by number crunching or 

5 statistics unless they are involved physically 

6 themselves or someone in their family is impacted 

7 by a statistic as in cancer. My mother died of 

8 emphysema.

9 The bottom line is unless they are 

10 involved, they tend to ignore the need. I have a 

11 suggestion, and I'd like to propose a new 

12 equation. E plus P plus A equals C, and in this 

13 instance, the EPA does not represent the 

14 environmental protection, but it does. However, 

15 this equation is education plus participation 

16 plus action equals change.

17 I know that there are many people who may 

18 not remember a 40-year-old commercial PSA that 

19 was the catalyst brought on by the Cleaning of 

20 America Campaign in 1970s, and if you are not 

21 familiar with it, go online and check the Crying 

22 Indian commercial, and you'll be able to see it 
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1 in its entirety.

2 That message was so powerful that for 20 

3 years or more, people were motivated to clean up 

4 the waterways and their communities, because they 

5 saw that once we had a beautiful land and through 

6 neglect and indifference had changed to impact on 

7 the lives of everyone. Well, now we're faced 

8 with an international and global problem that's 

9 not going away, and we need to employ a new kind 

10 of PSA.

11 My background is in advertising expertise 

12 in marketing and networking and in show business. 

13 What I am proposing -- and I would put it in an 

14 outline and leave it with you at some later date, 

15 but my goal is to get the interest of Kevin 

16 Costner, Leonardo DiCaprio, Steven Spielberg, and 

17 -- what's his name? -- James Cameron.

18 People don't know that James Cameron did 

19 author and created "Avatar" -- offered in each of 

20 his DVDs a certificate that when purchased, that 

21 person could fill out and return to Cameron's 

22 organization, and in their name, five trees were 
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1 planted in the Amazon and blighted areas 

2 throughout our world. That's a major 

3 participation.

4 Cosner has spent $20 million of his own 

5 money in behalf of clean water and purification 

6 systems for blightened communities all over the 

7 world, specifically Africa.

8 The other two men are of equal 

9 importance. They are all beloved. Their 

10 messages are believable and well received, and my 

11 feeling is that if we can get them to create 

12 another PSA as powerful as the old one showing 

13 how it was and the effects of what has happened 

14 with the national natural disasters throughout 

15 our world, but ending on a positive note showing 

16 that if together, man, woman, and child in every 

17 country in the world, we work together to create 

18 an action that can truly result in changing our 

19 environment and protecting our world forever. 

20 And that's my goal, and I will do everything I

21 can to get this rolling, and I think you all 

22 understand if you went to the box office this 
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1 past weekend and saw the motion picture, "The 

2 Avengers" took in, in 3 months -- in 3 weeks in 

3 excess of $3 billion.

4 MR. HARVEY: Ms. Keefer, your time has 

5 expired. Let's wrap up.

6 MS. KEEFER: It's something to think 

7 about.

8 MR. HARVEY: Great. Thank you. You can 

9 remain there, and we'll -- unless you decide 

10 which is easier for you. I know you have a 

11 handful.

12 MS. PENDLETON: Good afternoon. My name 

13 is Keisha Pendleton, K-E-I-S-H-A, P-E-N-D-L-E-T14 O-N. I am here in full support of the EPA's 

15 carbon pollution standard. I am the wife of an 

16 asthma sufferer and sister of an asthma sufferer. 

17 Both recount stories, my husband in particular, 

18 of visiting emergency rooms as a child so 

19 frequently that he knew to go to the counter and 

20 give his name and insurance information.

21 I'm also, like I said, the sister of an 

22 asthma sufferer who as we were younger would hold 
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1 the nebulizer to my brother's face, just watching 

2 him suffer, and it just -- it really bothers me 

3 that polluters are able to -- or have been able 

4 to so far get away with the polluting, and 

5 there's no limit on the amount of pollution that 

6 they can emit into the air.

7 I'm also a recent recipient of a master's 

8 in environmental management. I've gained an 

9 enormous amount of information, just background 

10 information, what occurs when pollution enters 

11 our airwaves. It not only affects us here in the 

12 United States, but it also affects the entire 

13 world. So what we're doing here today is not 

14 just a local or national thing. It's a global 

15 thing.

16 In addition, as a minority, I feel the 

17 sense of responsibility to speak up for our 

18 underserved communities. Urban and underserved 

19 communities do -- are affected more or to a 

20 greater extent than other populations, and I feel 

21 that we really should consider the entire 

22 population of the United States, including those 
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1 who aren't able to speak up for themselves, those 

2 who may not even know that there was a hearing 

3 going on for this pollution standard today.

4 As I said, I have two young children. 

5 Here is one of my children. Her name is Ava. 

6 The child is six, and we requested -- neither of 

7 them have encountered effects of asthma, although 

8 it may produce both because it runs in our 

9 family.

10 I just want to continue to be able to 

11 protect them, and that's why I'm here speaking 

12 today as a mother to understand that as they grow 

13 up, I won't be able to detect, and there are 

14 certain things that I can't do to protect them, 

15 but I am really speaking here today. I hope it 

16 will help watch over them as they grow and to 

17 know what kind of planet I am leaving for them.

18 So I just want to again reiterate my 

19 support for the standard, and I hope that it goes 

20 through. I also understand that the mercury 

21 standard is also under fire. So I want to be 

22 able to just reiterate my support for the mercury 
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1 standard in addition to this. We need to 

2 basically ramp up what we're able to combat. 

3 It's not just a business thing; it's an issue of 

4 health, which in my opinion is also an issue of 

5 what our future will hold for this country in 

6 order to be able to watch over of these people, 

7 because they're here today, and they're always 

8 going to be here. The young people are going to 

9 be here in the future, and we have to be careful 

10 of what we're leaving for our future generations.

11 So thank you for allowing me to speak.

12 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for your eloquent 

13 testimony.

14 Our next speakers are Whitney Byrd and 

15 Joe Elcox. If both of you will come to the 

16 table, please.

17 We will start with Ms. Byrd, and is it 

18 spelled B-Y-R-D?

19 MS. BYRD: Yes.

20 MR. HARVEY: Okay.

21 MS. BYRD: My name is Whitney Byrd, and I 

22 live in Charlottesville, Virginia. I am speaking 
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1 today as the coordinator of Wise Energy for 

2 Virginia Coalition, which is a statewide

3 coalition of environmental groups that seeks to 

4 move Virginia away from the effects of coal and 

5 transition towards a clean and efficient and 

6 sustainable energy picture.

7 I'm here today to speak in support of 

8 EPA's rule to limit carbon pollution for new 

9 power plants. Power plants are the largest 

10 source of carbon pollution that is known to 

11 negatively impact our health, destroy our natural 

12 resources, and contribute to dangerous climate 

13 change.

14 Virginians are already experiencing the 

15 impacts of climate change at home. The costs of 

16 local impacts of climate change is more frequent 

17 flooding across Virginia's coasts.

18 In a recent PBS special, Norfolk Mayor 

19 Paul Fraim explained that in the past, flooding 

20 in the coastal city was an occasional occurrence, 

21 principally caused by large storms and 

22 hurricanes. However, these days, flooding is as 
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1 frequent in some areas of Norfolk as the change 

2 in tides. Mayor Fraim pointed out that he's not 

3 an environmentalist, and that he has observed the 

4 flooding problem getting worse over time without 

5 a doubt.

6 He explained that in the coming decades, 

7 parts of the city would likely be abandoned 

8 because of the ever-approaching seas. Norfolk 

9 holds the world's largest naval base and one of 

10 America's largest ports. To say that this is a

11 problem for Virginia and for national security is 

12 an understatement.

13 Climate change poses serious risk to 

14 Virginia's future. Our coasts are second in the 

15 nation in terms of threat from sea level rise, 

16 only surpassed by New Orleans. What is worse, 

17 the National Resource Defense Council concluded 

18 that Virginia is among the States least prepared 

19 for negative impacts to our water supply due to 

20 climate change in a report released this spring.

21 Climate change-related risk to our water 

22 considered in this report include increased 
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1 annual precipitation, water supply challenges, 

2 increased flooding, sea level rise, increased 

3 erosion, saltwater intrusion, and impacts to 

4 aquatic and animal species.

5 There are also many harmful non-climate 

6 impacts of carbon pollution that we are grappling 

7 with in Virginia. Carbon pollution from power 

8 plants, particularly coal-fired power plants, 

9 contribute to smog air pollution that is harmful 

10 to all Virginians, but particularly children, the 

11 elderly diagnosed with respiratory and 

12 cardiovascular conditions.

13 Richmond, Virginia's capital city, was 

14 named the Asthma Capital of the U.S. for a second 

15 year in a row by the Asthma and Allergy 

16 Foundation of America. Over 20,000 children 

17 suffer from asthma in Richmond.

18 Virginia Beach also made their top 10, 

19 ranking eighth in the nation.

20 Across the State, more than half of 

21 Virginia earned a failing rate for air pollution 

22 linked to asthma.
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1 Virginia is still very much a coal State. 

2 We mine for coal in our southwest and burn coal 

3 to produce just less than half of our 

4 electricity. While our politicians are 

5 benefitting from coal, receiving generous 

6 campaign donations from Big Coal and signing 

7 bills into law that support the industry, our 

8 people are footing the bill with our health, our 

9 natural heritage, and our hard-earned dollars.

10 The environmental and public health 

11 impacts of extracting and burning fossil fuels 

12 can more than double the cost of electricity.

13 According to a recent study by the 

14 National Academy of Sciences, coal-fired power 

15 plants in Virginia alone cost Virginians $1.7 

16 billion in costs associated with air pollution in 

17 the last year.

18 Meanwhile, Virginia continues to bring on 

19 new damaging and costly coal plants. A new coal 

20 plant just completed construction in Wise County, 

21 Virginia, that would come online this summer. In 

22 addition, what will be Virginia's largest coal 
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1 plant yet proposed by the Old Dominion Electric 

2 Cooperative was recently granted local zoning 30 

3 miles from the Chesapeake Bay.

4 In an editorial that ran in the Virginia 

5 Pilot yesterday, ODEC executive David Hudgins 

6 accused the environmental organizations of fear7 mongering when educating the public about the 

8 health impacts of coal-fired power plants. He 

9 stated that there is no science that supports 

10 these exaggerated opinions, and that these 

11 opinions that coal would pollute the air and 

12 water, sicken our children and the elderly, and 

13 worsen air quality problems.

14 This is simply not true. The EPA and the 

15 scientific community have a plethora of evidence 

16 to support claims that carbon pollution from 

17 coal-fired power plants is harmful to human 

18 health.

19 Clearly, without limits of carbon 

20 pollution, cleaner, more modern energy 

21 technologies struggle to compete with the 

22 politically powerful and heavily subsidized coal 
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1 companies that operate in Virginia.

2 Virginia and the U.S. have much to gain 

3 from the development of modern, clean, 

4 sustainable energy technologies such as wind, 

5 solar efficiency.

6 MR. HARVEY: Ms. Byrd?

7 MS. BYRD: Yes?

8 MR. HARVEY: If you can wrap it up?

9 MS. BYRD: Okay. So I just wanted to say 

10 that the Wise Energy Coalition applauds the EPA 

11 for their leadership and for taking these common12 sense steps to limit carbon pollution from power 

13 plants, and I thank you for the opportunity to 

14 comment today.

15 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

16 Mr. Elcox.

17 MR. ELCOX: Thank you. My name is Joe 

18 Elcox, and I live in Dedham, Massachusetts, and I 

19 work for National Wildlife Federation, and I am 

20 in full support of the carbon rule proposal.

21 I have lived all over this country and 

22 seen many priceless, wonderful places, but the 
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1 place I know best is New England and specifically 

2 Squam Lake in New Hampshire.

3 Squam Lake is at the foot of the White 

4 Mountain National Forward, and it's a place where 

5 the Abenaki Indians once lived. They fished and 

6 hunted there. There was teaming with mink, 

7 otter, muskrat, raccoons. The lake remains in 

8 New England a national treasury, even though many 

9 of those species are now greatly depleted.

10 I remember as a child watching a huge 

11 tanker truck moving through the woods near the 

12 shore. A man was positioned on the back of the 

13 truck with a huge nozzle spraying plumes of DDT 

14 throughout the woods to kill the mosquitoes and, 

15 as we now know, many other things.

16 I still remember the sensation of the 

17 chemical burn in the back of my throat, and DDT 

18 devastated the lake. And it wasn't until a few 

19 years ago that I saw my first bald eagle on the 

20 lake, and now there are some thriving pairs on 

21 the lake and doing well.

22 Just as DDT was destroying our ecosystem, 
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1 so was carbon pollution. Beyond the lake of the 

2 White Mountains, which I hike every year and 

3 marvel at their majesty, but they are not 

4 majestic enough to withstand the attacks of 

5 carbon pollution. Blue spruce trees near the 

6 mountain summits, once thriving, are being 

7 reduced to brittle twigs as a result of this 

8 pollution. I was lucky enough to be on the top 

9 of Mount Washington on a rare day with no cloud 

10 cover, and the visibility was 75 miles, but a 

11 student at UNH, they were running a weather 

12 research facility up there, was saying that the 

13 visibility used to be 100 miles, and that if you 

14 looked out, you could see just this carbon 

15 pollution that just was blowing in from across 

16 the country. It gives New England the title of 

17 "Tailpipe of the Nation."

18 Carbon pollution is causing similar 

19 damage everywhere, and we cannot ignore it any 

20 longer. The economic impacts of this pollution 

21 are just beginning to be felt. Last month, I 

22 went to the Boston Marathon, which has been 
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1 running for over 100 years. My dad used to go 

2 every year before me, and temperatures on 

3 marathon day were in the '90s. And over 5,000 

4 runners decided that they would forego running 

5 because of the heat, and areas along the route 

6 that would normally be packed five-deep with 

7 people trying to get to see the runners running 

8 down the road, they were sparsely populated, and 

9 you could walk right up to the tape along the 

10 road.

11 Kids were selling lemonade on the corner 

12 for a charity, and they remarked how business was 

13 so slow.

14 The marathon brings out hundreds of 

15 thousands of people that will -- and these people 

16 will spend tens of millions of dollars in Greater 

17 Boston, and with the extreme weather brought on 

18 by carbon pollution, we can expect to see more of 

19 the same extreme weather and issues of not being 

20 able to run the marathon in the future.

21 DDT gave us clear signals of trouble, and 

22 we addressed the problem. We now need to address 
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1 the problem of carbon pollution. The EPA's 

2 carbon rule is a good first step in reversing the 

3 damage done by carbon pollution, and it's vital 

4 that the EPA move forward with it. This is not a 

5 problem we can ignore and leave to our children 

6 and grandchildren.

7 And I thank you very much.

8 MR. HARVEY: Thank you both very much. 

9 Thank you for coming down.

10 Our next two speakers, if you'll come 

11 forward, are Sue Edwards and Myrene O'Connor.

12 Ms. Edwards, if you'll go first?

13 MS. EDWARDS: My name is Susan Edwards. 

14 What else did you need to know? It's spelled 

15 just like it sounds.

16 MR. HARVEY: Are you affiliated with any 

17 group, or are you representing yourself?

18 MS. EDWARDS: I'm a volunteer with the 

19 Sierra Club.

20 MR. HARVEY: Great.

21 MS. EDWARDS: Thank you so much for 

22 taking the time to listen to us hour after hour, 
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1 and it's probably a little bit repetitive. I 

2 hope mine is not too repetitive, but it probably 

3 will be. I appreciate the time.

4 I'm a concerned citizen and a Sierra Club 

5 volunteer, and I'm happy to know that the EPA is 

6 taking seriously what appears to be one of the 

7 most crucial issues of our day which is the 

8 impact of climate disruption caused by human9 produced greenhouse gases in our atmosphere.

10 I'm wholeheartedly in favor of 

11 Administrator Jackson's proposal to limit carbon 

12 pollution, a historic step forward in addressing 

13 climate change. While there are those who deny 

14 that continued use of fossil fuels presents any 

15 problem for our planet, a wiser approach is, 

16 while hoping for the best, preparing for the 

17 worst.

18 Just as with human bodies, a slight rise 

19 in the temperature of the earth must be taken as 

20 a threat to the whole delicately balanced web of 

21 life. Tipping points and feedback loops may mean 

22 that we will reach points of no return, and we 
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1 will see increasing droughts, floods, rising 

2 seas, and extreme weather, such as we've already 

3 seen.

4 And those least able to protect 

5 themselves and their communities will be those 

6 that are already underserved and neglected, such 

7 as Hurricane Katrina, but as we have already 

8 begun to see, these extreme events can affect all 

9 of us. So it never ceases to amaze me that self10 identified conservatives do not take a cautious 

11 approach to risk assessment when it comes to the 

12 future of our habitat as humans.

13 Fortunately, the people of the U.S. are 

14 not fooled by the naysayers. A recent poll shows 

15 the majority of us place a higher priority on 

16 protecting the environment than even the economy 

17 and jobs, surprisingly enough. People understand 

18 that a thriving economy and good jobs will be 

19 meaningless without clean air and water and a 

20 livable planet.

21 It is also clear that there will be many 

22 green jobs as we move into a sustainable future. 
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1 So for the sake of not just the environment but 

2 also peace and a stable economy, we need to stop 

3 the build-up of carbon dioxide and other 

4 greenhouse gases in our atmosphere.

5 And one other point, I have been talking 

6 to Philadelphia parents at home and school 

7 meetings, libraries, and recreation centers about 

8 the connection between asthma and clean air. 

9 While environmental factors are responsible for 

10 as much as 30 percent of asthma, people are 

11 usually only told about individual solutions, 

12 vacuuming, not smoking, not keeping pets, and so 

13 on, but asthma rates are particularly high in 

14 Philadelphia, affecting 22 percent of the 

15 children, which is double the national rate, and 

16 in some neighborhoods, the rate is as high as 30 

17 percent.

18 Asthma rates among African-American 

19 children are higher than any other group and have 

20 risen by almost 50 percent in the last decade, 

21 and when I start asking people of color, it seems 

22 as if 90 percent of the people have someone with 
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1 asthma among their family and friends. It's 

2 going to take a concerted effort to clean up our 

3 air by restricting carbon pollution to bring 

4 these rates down.

5 Having a friend with severe asthma has 

6 opened my eyes to the fear of not being able to 

7 breathe at the lost school days and workdays that 

8 result. I hope the EPA will consider this and 

9 other public health impacts and will get carbon 

10 pollution under control.

11 Thank you.

12 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Ms. Edwards.

13 Ms. O'Connor?

14 MS. O'CONNOR: Hi. My name is Myrene 

15 O'Connor. I'm here today to support the carbon 

16 rule, of course. I wonder all the time how much 

17 longer we're going to continue to destroy the 

18 earth and the people who live in it. I totally 

19 support the EPA and all you do, so I'm not here 

20 to wage a war against you, by far.

21 It was interesting the statistics that 

22 you mentioned about children and asthma. I've 
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1 also read that there's an increased risk of 

2 asthma diagnosis with in vitro exposure to 

3 traffic-related pollutants, which is really kind 

4 of startling that someone wouldn't have a chance 

5 before they were born.

6 But I'm really here to talk about our 

7 son, Brian, and what happened in the middle of 

8 the night in the spring of 1996.

9 We had moved from Orlando, Florida, a 

10 year earlier, and our son was an active player on 

11 Montgomery County soccer leagues. We were sound 

12 asleep when in the middle of the night, Brian 

13 woke us up and said he couldn't breathe.

14 I was talking to him last night about it, 

15 and he said, "You might tell people to put tape 

16 on their mouth and over their nose, and that 

17 would give you the same sensation." Obviously, 

18 you know what that is, but I was absolutely 

19 terrified, and I called 911.

20 It had been a long time since I had 

21 learned CPR. My husband tried to calm Brian 

22 down, but none of us had any experience with a 
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1 total lack of ability to breathe. Brian had 

2 already started to panic, and I can't describe 

3 what the next few minutes were like.

4 Later, Brian said his anxiety was as bad 

5 as the physical struggle to breathe. Anxiety 

6 used to play a big part in Brian's coping with 

7 asthma.

8 The ambulance came right away, and Brian 

9 was breathing again, but how close he might have 

10 been to not surviving is something I think about 

11 every once in a while. This happens to all 

12 children who come down with asthma and all 

13 people, all adults, the thought of not being able 

14 to breathe and wondering.

15 Brian said that he used to lay awake and 

16 wonder if he was going o be able to breathe long 

17 enough to fall asleep. As a child, that was an 

18 actual fear.

19 Brian was on three asthma medications, 

20 which he took through a nebulizer several times a 

21 day. He handled his medications very well, and 

22 the allergist closely monitored the progress. 
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1 For 6 years, Brian fought asthma and had to sit 

2 along -- tried to participate in sports, but he 

3 regularly had to spend time sitting on the 

4 sidelines.

5 When he was 15, the allergist said he was 

6 free of the worst of his asthma, but that it 

7 could come back in the future. He's 25 today, 

8 and he's still a sensitive breather now, but he's 

9 not encountered asthma again.

10 I suspect that air pollution as the 

11 culprit at the time. We lived very close to 

12 Route 270, and you could smell it sometimes. You 

13 could smell the exhaust, and, you know, that used 

14 to make me really unhappy.

15 I worked for the Council of Governments 

16 when they started the Air Quality Index in 1972 

17 or '73, and I learned all about the range of 

18 particulate matters and other pollutants in the 

19 air. I began to read up on carbon pollution and 

20 the effect on breathing in children. Please fix 

21 this problem now.

22 MR. HARVEY: Thank you both very much for 
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1 sharing your stories with us.

2 Our next two speakers are Janet Fishman 

3 and John Comella. Please come forward.

4 We'll start with Ms. Fishman.

5 MS. FISHMAN: I live in Philadelphia. I 

6 am involved in many environmental organizations. 

7 It's a passionate issue for me. I have taught 

8 young people, university students. I have a son. 

9 I want them to inherit a green, clean earth.

10 So I applaud the EPA's decision to 

11 honestly look at the problem of carbon pollution 

12 and take a stand on lowering emissions, and I 

13 urge the EPA to lead with honest discourse and 

14 take the responsibility of presenting the facts 

15 to the American people in a situation where 

16 there's so many buzz words. And I want to 

17 mention one of them, which is that reducing 

18 emissions is a job killer.

19 So this is an article from the Enquirer, 

20 Hawaii's Future in Recruit. I believe that 

21 Hawaii is part of the United States. 

22 The findings could mean trouble for 
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1 public safety, tourism, and a way of life. 

2 Little by little, Hawaii's iconic beaches are 

3 disappearing, and the erosion is connected by the 

4 U.S. Geologic Service to climate change.

5 So some jobs will disappear if we don't 

6 do anything, and I would like to present another 

7 perspective, which is that all jobs aren't good. 

8 So there are many jobs in my West Philadelphia 

9 neighborhood, right down the street on the corner 

10 with independent pharmaceutical industries, drug 

11 dealing, and it offers jobs. We don't feel that 

12 these are jobs to be encouraged. They destroy 

13 health, and they destroy the fabric of the 

14 neighborhood.

15 And I believe that addiction to fossil 

16 fuels destroys our health and our environment. 

17 We can invest in other jobs. Some people who are 

18 raking it in may have to adjust their lifestyles, 

19 but there are many jobs in clean energy for 

20 everyone else. And these jobs will be good for 

21 our health and for our environment.

22 So I applause the EPA for showing back 
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1 bone in a difficult political environment, and I 

2 urge you to communicate this truth to the 

3 American people. Thank you.

4 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Ms. Fishman. Why 

5 don't you stay there.

6 Mr. Comella?

7 MR. COMELLA: My name is John Comella, 

8 and I live in Philadelphia. We have to clean up 

9 our air.

10 It has two aspects, but first are all the 

11 --coal ash. My wife had slight asthma for 30 

12 years. We lived outside of Boston. She now has 

13 fairly regular asthma, sometimes risk now that we 

14 live in Philadelphia. Other people suffer more 

15 from asthma than she does, but it definitely is 

16 unpleasant, and it's unpleasant for me having to 

17 watch her and not be able to do anything. So we 

18 need to clear that up.

19 The other aspect is potentially even 

20 worse, and that is global warming. People 

21 describing multiple tornadoes rising as far as I 

22 can tell is a new phenomenon. If it gets much 
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1 worse, it could be disastrous. We need to pay 

2 attention now while we can.

3 Another aspect is whenever I see the 

4 other lady representing the American Petroleum 

5 Institute strut across the stage saying we have 

6 50 natural gas -- I think she is exaggerating, 

7 but even if she is -- even if that is the right 

8 number, we need to be more -- cut down our use of 

9 fossil fuel, between 9 and 15 hours a day, and 

10 when the sun goes down, it goes off. So we are 

11 going to need fossil fuels forever, and if we 

12 have 50 years left, that means that my children 

13 are going to be there when we run out of fuels 

14 that we need for our civilization to survive. I 

15 want to push that out as far as possible and have 

16 minimal use of petroleum, natural gas, and all.

17 So we need to get our act together, 

18 because the time is coming, and it may be too 

19 late. Thank you.

20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Comella, for 

21 sharing your testimony with us. We appreciate 

22 it.
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1 Thank you both.

2 Our next two speakers are Brian Crenshaw 

3 and William Kramer. We'll start with Mr. 

4 Crenshaw.

5 MR. CRENSHAW: Yes. I want to thank you 

6 for the opportunity to speak at this hearing 

7 today and support of the carbon pollution 

8 standards for electric-generating units.

9 Today, I bring two perspectives with me. 

10 First, as a biomedical scientist at the 

11 Children's Hospital in Philadelphia and the 

12 University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, 

13 but more importantly in my mind is as father of 

14 12-year-old Zach. Although I am not a 

15 climatologist, I do read many of the major 

16 scientific articles that address climate change 

17 and the release of anthropogenic greenhouse gases 

18 that cause it that are published in major science 

19 journals such as Science and Nature.

20 I followed with interest for several 

21 years the strengthening evidence in support of 

22 the science behind global warming.
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1 Not only do these journals address the 

2 evidence in support of climate change, they often 

3 address critical things such as engineering, 

4 policy, and economic solutions to mitigate the 

5 worst effects of climate disruption.

6 In 2004, in a paper in Science by Pacala 

7 and Socolow, they outlined an approach that would 

8 effectively address the problem, not by using a 

9 single solution but a series of incremental and 

10 feasible solutions for different sectors of the 

11 economy, which they refer to as "stabilization 

12 wedges."

13 In this approach, no single wedge would 

14 address the entire problem, but each wedge 

15 individually and collectively could lead to 

16 carbon production necessary to stimulate global 

17 warming. Critically, the power sector represents 

18 a fundamentally important component of the 

19 solution, and I log these new carbon pollution 

20 standards as an important step in the wedge to 

21 de-carbonize our electrical power sector.

22 Although as a scientist, the solution to 
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1 de-carbonizing our economies is concrete and 

2 feasible, as a father, I'm concerned that public 

3 and private institutions are not doing enough to 

4 address the opinion, serious problems that will 

5 result if we do not reduce our emissions of 

6 greenhouse gases.

7 I have read policy papers from the best 

8 military minds that view global warming as a 

9 major national security threat, and I encourage 

10 that our military is acting on the security 

11 concern by increasing their use of sustainable 

12 energy.

13 Nonetheless, I fear that not enough is 

14 being done to ensure the security in the world I 

15 am leaving behind for my son. As a scientist, 

16 I've read policy papers by groups such as 

17 McKinsey & Company that outline the dangers of 

18 global warming to our economy and the modest 

19 costs, including the costs associated with the 

20 rule proposed today necessary to ameliorate the 

21 negative economic consequences.

22 As a father, I strive to encourage our 
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1 government to take the necessary steps to ensure 

2 the prosperity of our economy in the future.

3 Working in a major pediatric hospital, I 

4 understand the numerous ill effects that burning 

5 fossil fuels can have on vulnerable populations 

6 such as our pediatric patients.

7 Interacting with hearings such as today, 

8 I hope to protect my own child by supporting the 

9 actions that reduce the amount of pollution being 

10 spewed into our environment. For these reasons, 

11 I support the efforts of the EPA and their 

12 implementing important rules to reduce our use of 

13 fossil fuels and, consequently, the production of 

14 greenhouse gases that are endangering our 

15 climate.

16 For my son, Zach, and his generation for 

17 their security, for their prosperity, for their 

18 health and well-being, I implore you to implement 

19 this rule for their future and the future of our 

20 country.

21 Thank you very much.

22 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Crenshaw. 
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1 Please stay there until we're both up.

2 Would you introduce yourself first.

3 MR. KRAMER: William Karmer with the 

4 Sierra Club. Unlike most Americans, I have a lot 

5 of respect for scientists; however, following 

6 Brian Crenshaw is a hard act to follow. But I 

7 will do my best.

8 My name is William. I am an organizer 

9 with the Sierra Club of Philadelphia, and I am 

10 joined today by 18 other Philadelphians that came 

11 down with the Sierra Club or came down to this 

12 hearing to testify.

13 A lot of you have heard today a lot of

14 facts and figures about why it's important to 

15 produce carbon dioxide emissions. So I'm not 

16 going to dwell on the facts and figures. I think 

17 climate change is a very personal issue for three 

18 reasons.

19 For one, I am the father of a 5-year-old 

20 named Noah, and I read about global warming 

21 predictions explaining the extreme weather, 

22 floods, droughts, price spikes that are 
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1 anticipated for years like 2035, 2050. I realize 

2 my son will be 29 and 44 years old. His 

3 generation will suffer the consequences of our 

4 failure to act today.

5 Moreover, I am compelled to act as a 

6 person with an international perspective on the 

7 world. Before coming to the Sierra Club, I 

8 worked with peasant farmers from around the 

9 world, including people from Africa, Bangladesh, 

10 Bolivia, Guatemala, and Mexico. Climate 

11 scientists tell us that people from these 

12 countries, especially the rural poor, will be the 

13 most affected by climate change. Many of these 

14 people are my friends, and I feel compelled to 

15 act and support their struggles.

16 Finally, I also recognize that addressing 

17 climate change means creating green jobs for the 

18 unemployed and working people in the United 

19 States. In short, those who have the most to 

20 lose from climate change in our country are the 

21 people who often suffer the highest rates of 

22 asthma because of air pollution and have the most 
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1 to gain from the creation of green jobs.

2 Climate scientists tell us that we are in 

3 a period of profound catastrophic warming. 

4 However, they also tell us that if we act 

5 together globally, for particularly 

6 industrialized nations like the United States, we 

7 may be able to stave off the worst of these 

8 changes. We have the technology and the 

9 manufacturing capability to dramatically reduce 

10 our carbon emissions. What has been lacking 

11 until recently has been the political will.

12 The fact that EPA is holding hearings, 

13 this hearing and other hearings you've held in 

14 recent years and that so many people here in 

15 Washington, D.C., have come out to support this 

16 standard represents to me the hope that we really

17 can do what it takes to protect our planet before 

18 it's too late.

19 Thank you for your time.

20 [Applause.]

21 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Karmer and 

22 Mr. Crenshaw, for coming down from Philadelphia.
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1 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: Thanks to all of 

2 you who traveled so far to get here. We are 

3 impressed by the fact that many of you have come 

4 from many hours away, New England, far reaches of 

5 Virginia, and anywhere in between.

6 MR. HARVEY: All right. Our next two 

7 speakers are Jennie Gosche and Melinda Erdberg. 

8 Jennie Gosche or Melinda Erdberg.

9 [Pause.]

10 MR. HARVEY: Briana Liu. Briana Liu? 

11 Okay, great. If you could spell your name for 

12 us, and then if you're affiliated with any group?

13 MS. LIU: Hello. My name is Briana Liu, 

14 B-R-I-A-N-A, L-I-U.

15 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

16 MS. LIU: So, good afternoon. I'm Briana 

17 Liu. I come today as a citizen, and I am from 

18 Rockville, Maryland. And I'm also an upcoming 

19 sophomore at Princeton University.

20 So I'm sure you have heard a lot about 

21 the scientific reasoning behind passing this law, 

22 and I was sitting there in the audience. I also 
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1 heard a lot of facts and statistics. So I want 

2 to speak more about this issue's personal 

3 significance to me and why I think the 

4 environment is really important.

5 So I grew up really just looking at 

6 planets and animals and nature, but then as I 

7 grew older, I began to realize more the human 

8 impact of climate change and the environment. 

9 And more and more, the environment carried like 

10 just more of a human face to me, and I saw more 

11 of the people whose lives were just being 

12 impacted by the environment on a day-to-day 

13 basis.

14 And, I mean, you can call me sick, but 

15 that's what I plan on doing for my career. I 

16 want to pursue environmental policy, because I 

17 really want to help these people in the world 

18 have a better life, because I feel that the 

19 environment is really the most universal issue 

20 there is. It affects everyone on this planet in 

21 such interpolated ways.

22 So as a member of this new generation, 
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1 the youth that so many people have talked about, 

2 that saving the environment is something for the 

3 future generation, I want to say that it's true 

4 that the environment is something affecting the 

5 future, but more than that, it's also something 

6 affecting people living right now at this very 

7 moment today. And I think people don't realize 

8 enough just like how much of an impact the 

9 environment already has on people, the quality of 

10 their lives, their well-being, and the tens of 

11 thousands of lives that have already been lost to 

12 environmental disasters and just causes.

13 I think this is something that we need to 

14 realize. So what are we going to do about it?

15 Last semester at university, I took a 

16 class called the Fundamentals of Environmental 

17 Studies. So it's basically just a really basic 

18 overview of environmental issues, and, I mean, 

19 there's just so much that was opened up to me, so 

20 many different proposed solutions, but the most 

21 obvious one that stood out was still the energy 

22 sector. And that's what this law pertains to 
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1 today.

2 I mean, the simple solution is simply 

3 putting a cap, setting a limit to carbon 

4 emissions for power plants of the future, but 

5 even as I was reading the EPA fact sheet, the EPA 

6 statement, I sense how -- I sense the opposition, 

7 the hurdles to even this kind of really like 

8 august solutions to our problems. The tone was 

9 pretty cautious, I thought, and that I don't 

10 know. It was almost as if I guess the 

11 environmental -- the environmentalists are afraid 

12 to offend the coal industry or just repeatedly 

13 emphasizing that this is a measure that only 

14 impacts the coal plants of the future and not any 

15 today, and that coal-fired power plants would not 

16 be affected, like things like that.

17 I mean, so, frankly, I feel that the EPA 

18 should have more of a fitting attitude, and I 

19 understand that the political climate today may 

20 be unfitting for this with all the deficit issues 

21 and all of that, but still, I feel like there 

22 must be someone in the government who understands 
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1 the urgency of these issues and how important the 

2 environment is to us.

3 So I feel like this law is not only 

4 moderate, but it's also long overdue. So I want 

5 to thank you for these efforts but also urge you 

6 to please keep on fighting.

7 I guess the last thing is that, again, in 

8 that class that I took, we went through many 

9 readings, debating the different courses that we 

10 might take. One stated quite dramatically that 

11 maybe we should not do anything right now, that 

12 maybe we should wait for something really big to 

13 hit us in the future, because any change that we 

14 pass today will only serve to temporarily 

15 alleviate these symptoms and won't fundamentally 

16 address these root issues.

17 But so that only when it hits us really 

18 hard will we be able to actually change our mind19 sets and actually enact meaningful change, which 

20 does make sense to some degree, but then I 

21 thought about it, and I was like we cannot go at 

22 it that way, because when it actually comes and 
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1 when we are actually severely affected, it will 

2 come at the cost of hundreds of thousands of 

3 lives, and we simply cannot wait to see that 

4 happen.

5 So I think I am speaking pretty 

6 passionately here, but I just really feel the 

7 sense of urgency, and I wish that all of us could 

8 also feel that as well, and --

9 MR. HARVEY: I should say your time is 

10 up.

11 MS. LIU: My time is up?

12 MR. HARVEY: But you can wrap up.

13 MS. LIU: I can wrap up. Okay. 

14 MR. HARVEY: In a very few seconds.

15 MS. LIU: The very last thing would be 

16 that I guess there are also readings that pointed 

17 to how the U.S., because we are a market-driven 

18 economy that so hitched on this wasteful 

19 consumerism and how our system as a democracy is 

20 so dependent on winning the favor of constituents 

21 today that we fail to see the long-term vision 

22 and fail to have a long-term plan for the future.
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1 And I feel that we must like firmly 

2 resist the sentiment and prove to the world that 

3 we are capable, the U.S. as a market-driven 

4 economy that's a democracy. We can be capable of 

5 leading this change and be at the forefront 

6 driving this, so thank you.

7 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

8 [Applause.]

9 MR. HARVEY: Okay. I think we are going 

10 to take a temporary break and go off record, 

11 since we have no speakers waiting for us at this 

12 point.

13 [Recess taken from 2:57 to 3:02 p.m.]

14 MR. HARVEY: Do we have Susan Davis here 

15 or Jennie Gosche? Would you come up, please?

16 MS. DAVIS: Do you want us over here?

17 MR. HARVEY: Yes, please.

18 Are you Ms. Davis? I'd like both of you 

19 sitting up front here. What we're doing is we're 

20 calling people up in pairs, have both of you 

21 speak, and if we have any clarifying questions, 

22 we'll pose those after both of you have spoken, 
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1 and then you both will go sit down.

2 So, Ms. Davis, if you wouldn't mind 

3 starting? You have 5 minutes. We have a timer 

4 here. When you see the yellow, the yellow light 

5 is your signal that you have 1 minute left, and 

6 the red light is my signal to tell you to stop.

7 MS. DAVIS: Okay. Well, I'm going to 

8 read. I'm more comfortable doing it from my own 

9 computer. So I'm just going to read what I --

10 MR. HARVEY: Please use the microphone. 

11 Thank you.

12 MS. DAVIS: How's that?

13 MR. HARVEY: Better.

14 MS. DAVIS: I can think of no important 

15 issue that is not impacted by global warming from 

16 war to health to water availability to 

17 agriculture to the very sustainability of complex 

18 life forms on this planet.

19 If dramatic climate change caused by 

20 greenhouse gases in the past has led, as I 

21 recently read, to massive extinctions, there is 

22 no reason to doubt that this can happen again.
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1 Even if we survive, we cannot thrive with 

2 continued degradation of our environment. The 

3 earth may survive, but our species may not be so 

4 fortunate. Human pollution has already had 

5 demonstrably negative effects.

6 When I look at my precious grandbabies, I 

7 am ashamed that we may be giving them a world in 

8 which their chance for any decent quality of life 

9 is imperiled by our negligence. No increase in 

10 energy availability is worth that cost.

11 Since demand for energy is likely to 

12 continue, strict regulation of destructive side 

13 effects is absolutely critical.

14 Finally, my long career in mental health 

15 and family systems only reinforces my 

16 determination to press for protection from carbon 

17 pollution. At the individual level, since 

18 breathing is the one behavior under both 

19 voluntary and involuntary control, it is key to 

20 behavioral health.

21 How deeply you can breathe affects 

22 everything from anger management and PTSD 
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1 recovery to the very range of sensory systems 

2 that you can use to think.

3 The systemic climate issues issuing from 

4 global warming affect both mental and physical 

5 health in too many ways to enumerate here. I 

6 must say when I was doing this, my mind was going 

7 off. There are just so many ways.

8 When I was raising my children, I often 

9 thought about the affluence in the world is not 

10 given to you by your parents. It's loaned to you 

11 by your children and all of our children. I hope 

12 that this thought will guide your decision today.

13 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Ms. Davis.

14 Ms. Gosche, could you spell your name 

15 also for our reporter and use the microphone?

16 MS. GOSCHE: J-E-N-N-I-E. My last name 

17 is Gosche, G-O-S-C-H-E.

18 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

19 MS. GOSCHE: And I brought some of my 

20 photography with me today to kind of help 

21 illustrate why I am so concerned about air 

22 quality.
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1 I also am a therapist and a social 

2 worker. I work for Montgomery County Government 

3 at the Montgomery County Crisis Center. That's 

4 how I earn a living, but my passion and my love 

5 is for photography and for wildlife.

6 I live in Kensington, Maryland. I've 

7 lived in Washington since 1980. I got my social 

8 work degree from Catholic University in 

9 Washington.

10 I have been a photographer for over 30 

11 years. My trip to Canada in November of 2010 

12 where I took these photographs and nearly a 

13 thousand others was my first foray into digital 

14 photography, and I have loved wildlife for many, 

15 many years. I have always been a fan of the 

16 animals, but wildlife for some reason has always 

17 held a real interest for me.

18 I was an advocate a number of years ago 

19 to try to stop hunting at a church-owned property 

20 in Germantown, Maryland. I was not successful, 

21 but I got my picture in the Washington Post as 

22 the only demonstrator against the hunting. If 
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1 somebody googles me, that's what comes up.

2 I went to Churchill, Manitoba, Canada, in 

3 November of 2011 to see the polar bears. There 

4 are 19 subgroups of polar bears around in the 

5 Arctic. There are five Arctic nations, the 

6 United States, which is Alaska, Canada, Russia, 

7 Norway -- I have to look at my notes, because I 

8 kind of forget -- Norway for the Island of 

9 Svalbard and Denmark, which owns Greenland.

10 So the bears in Alaska and in Canada are 

11 the most accessible of the 19 subgroups, and 

12 there are tours that go to Canada every year in 

13 the fall to see the bears. They congregate on 

14 the edge of the Hudson Bay waiting for the ice to 

15 freeze. Polar bears and walruses and two kinds 

16 of seals are the mammals that absolutely depend 

17 on ice to survive. The polar bear eats seals. 

18 That is their primary food, because they're full 

19 of fat, and they need a lot of fat. They go 

20 months and months and months without food. They 

21 eat a great deal in the spring, and sometimes go 

22 until the fall or the winter without food. They 
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1 go the longest of, I think, almost any mammal 

2 without food.

3 So when I was in Churchill in November of 

4 2011, we stayed in something called the Tundra 

5 Lodge, which is a group of trailers that are 

6 pulled out on the Tundra, so you are right there. 

7 At least we were from here to that door to the 

8 Hudson Bay, which was all water. There was no 

9 ice in November.

10 And one of my concerns and why I am here 

11 today is because carbon pollution does affect 

12 climate. There's a lot of agreement about 

13 climate change, and climate change is affecting 

14 the Arctic and the Antarctic at a greater level 

15 than other parts of the world, although all the 

16 world is experiencing unusual weather and a lot 

17 of other events, but the Arctic and the Antarctic 

18 are particularly affected by climate change and 

19 global warming.

20 And I am very fearful about the survival 

21 of the animals that I was able to see. I saw 

22 Arctic fox. I saw polar bears. I saw 
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1 ptarmigans. We didn't see any Arctic hares, but 

2 they are there.

3 So my concern is if the ice is gone, the 

4 bears will be gone. They will be extinct, and 

5 the different projections as to how soon that 

6 will happen vary depending on the scientists that 

7 you ask, but I think that it's very possible that 

8 it could be in our lifetime. They are 

9 magnificent animals. I was as close to them as 

10 that table. We were 10 feet off the ground, and 

11 these huge wheels, like earth-mover wheels, and 

12 the bears come around the lodge, because they 

13 smell food and they're hungry.

14 The mother bears and the babies, we had 

15 to go out on rovers to see them. The mothers do 

16 not come to the lodge, because the male bears can 

17 attack the babies, especially if they're hungry. 

18 So we would have to go out.

19 And if the bears do not have enough to 

20 eat, it affects the fertility of the bears. They 

21 do not have -- their eggs do not implant unless 

22 they are fat enough to carry a pregnancy, and 
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1 they stay in the dens for months, and if they 

2 cannot nurse the babies, then the babies will not 

3 survive if the mothers are not fat enough.

4 I think that the climate change directly 

5 affects the survival of these magnificent 

6 animals. So I am hoping that you will not only 

7 make rules that affect new construction of power 

8 plants but also the existing power plants that 

9 are really not that regulated as far as the 

10 carbon pollution that they are putting out in the 

11 atmosphere.

12 And the Arctic is one living organism. 

13 What happens in Alaska affects Svalbard and 

14 affects Canada, affects Russia. So what we do in 

15 the United States does have an impact all over 

16 the Arctic. So I hope you will consider our 

17 statements positively and rule to increase the 

18 controls on these emissions.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, and thank you for 

21 sharing your photographs with us.

22 MS. GOSCHE: You're welcome.
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1 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: Beautiful 

2 photographs.

3 MR. HARVEY: One speaker, Don Halbert.

4 [Pause.]

5 MR. HARVEY: Whenever you're ready.

6 MR. HALBERT: Can I start? Good 

7 afternoon. My name is Donald Halbert, and I'm a 

8 retired railroader and the proud father of two 

9 sons and a grandfather of five, and I'm grateful 

10 for the opportunity to speak today in favor of 

11 the proposed carbon standard for new power 

12 plants.

13 Do I have to say the docket number?

14 MR. HARVEY: No, no, no.

15 MR. HALBERT: Okay.

16 EPA's proposal aims to limit greenhouse 

17 gas emission from new fossil fuel-fired power 

18 plants by limiting CO2 emissions. Today, 

19 according to the DOE, coal generates about half 

20 of our nation's electricity. Well, this percent 

21 will decline as cheap coal phases itself out. 

22 We're stuck with it, and we need to cut CO2 now.
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1 My testimony today focuses on the 

2 proposals inside the proposal's mandate to reduce 

3 CO2 using our best demonstrated technology, to wit 

4 carbon capture and storage, an option I believe 

5 we must pursue aggressively.

6 Do I need to define it?

7 MR. HARVEY: No. We're aware of what it 

8 is.

9 MR. HALBERT: No? I'll spare you that. 

10 Thank you.

11 In exploring this issue, I found a great 

12 number of experts agree on the wisdom of 

13 developing CCS. I'm going to stop there and say 

14 I found a great number of experts who didn't 

15 agree with it too, and it seemed their opinions 

16 were basically a fear that this is a roost or 

17 some kind of diversion tactic by the coal folks, 

18 so just to ensure that they'll continue.

19 I think the standards, 1,000 per kilowatt 

20 hour, precludes that. I think it requires CCS.

21 Just to provide for the record -- and I 

22 imagine this is probably already in the record, 
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1 but George Monbiot, who is a professor at Oxford, 

2 in his 2007 book, "Heat: How to Stop the Planet 

3 from Burning," said that, "I've come to believe 

4 this technology can with sufficient political 

5 commitment wind up going before 2030" -- I'm not 

6 going to -- I have about seven pros. I also 

7 included in here about six cons, but I just 

8 wanted to expose for the record the whole story 

9 as far as I can see it.

10 John Deutch and his partner, Ernest 

11 Moniz, from MIT said in 2009, "Our overall 

12 judgment is that the prospect for geological CO2

13 sequestration is excellent. We base this 

14 judgment on 30 years of experience and the 

15 ability of the earth's crust to trap CO2. The DOE 

16 should launch a program to develop and deploy 

17 large-scale sequestration demonstration 

18 projects." Unfortunately, I think it's expiring.

19 Finally, George Peridas, who is a 

20 scientist with the Natural Resources Defense 

21 Council, said in '08, testifying before the House 

22 of Representatives -- this is my favorite --
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1 "Growing scientific research indicates we face 

2 extreme dangers to human health, economic well3 being, and the ecosystem in which we depend if 

4 global average temperatures are allowed to 

5 increase by more than 2 degrees Fahrenheit from 

6 today's levels. We have good prospects staying 

7 below this temperature increase if atmospheric 

8 concentrations of CO2 and other global warming 

9 dangers are kept from exceeding 450 parts per 

10 million. The CO2" -- excuse me -- "450 parts per 

11 million CO2 equivalent, and then after leveling it 

12 off, it needs to be rapidly reduced. To make 

13 this possible, it requires immediate steps to 

14 reduce global emissions over the next several 

15 decades, including action to halt U.S. emission 

16 growth within the next few years and then cut 

17 emissions by approximately 80 percent by mid 

18 century. Those goal is ambitious but achievable. 

19 Fortunately, a wide variety of tools is 

20 available to day to achieve those reductions, but 

21 we will need all the tools at our disposal. One 

22 such tool is carbon capture and sequestration."
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1 I think I will conclude there, and I 

2 thank you for the opportunity to talk.

3 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. If you'd like, 

4 we can also put your statement in the docket.

5 MR. HALBERT: Yes, I'd like that. I'd 

6 like to put it in.

7 MR. HARVEY: You can leave that with us.

8 MR. HALBERT: Do I need to tell anything 

9 about what I'm putting in? Because I'm putting 

10 in several unfavorable items too that I thought 

11 were -- kind of demonstrated the crux of those 

12 opponents to the standards. Once the standard 

13 goes in and we have got that measurement, that 

14 baseline, 1,000 per kilowatt hour, I think that's 

15 a touchdown, I think.

16 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

17 MR. HALBERT: Thank you very much.

18 MR. HARVEY: All right. We are going to 

19 take a temporary break again and go off record.

20 [Recess taken from 3:20 to 3:33 p.m.]

21 MR. HARVEY: We are back on the record 

22 now.
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1 We are going to resume our public 

2 hearing. Next to speak are George Edwards and 

3 Curtis Atkinson. If you haven't been here 

4 earlier, everyone has 5 minutes. I'd like you to 

5 start by introducing yourself, and if you're 

6 affiliated with another group, introduce that 

7 affiliation. And we have a reporter here who is 

8 taking notes, recording what you're saying, and 

9 there's going to be a written transcript. We 

10 have a timer. You have 5 minutes, 4 minutes of 

11 the green light, 1 minute of the yellow light, 

12 red light means stop. Okay?

13 So Mr. Edwards?

14 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. Thank you. I would 

15 like to thank you and appreciate you for what you 

16 guys are doing. I believe in the government 

17 workers. I believe it's important that we have a 

18 government that works. I'm not afraid of the 

19 government, Big Government.

20 I'm a retired UAW, local resident, and 

21 also a machinist for 35 years. Listening to the 

22 other presentations, I had to come up and say a 
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1 few things myself based on the types of things 

2 that we did as a kid, the environment as adults 

3 we shouldn't do, and about environmental hazards 

4 that exist back then that we learned too late the 

5 importance of the EPA and someone can watch over 

6 what it is we're doing to our atmosphere.

7 As a kid, when we dropped a mercury 

8 thermometer, we picked it up and played with the 

9 mercury, colored our dimes, and made our dimes 

10 nice and shiny. Matter of fact, during the last 

11 few years when we came across a switch that had 

12 mercury in it, you backed off. If you dropped 

13 one, that was a hazardous clean-up. No one is 

14 allowed in the area. We learned a little too 

15 late for when I was a kid about the dangers of 

16 mercury.

17 And I grew up in a housing project. 

18 There was a lot of lead that was used in the 

19 windows in the housing projects. We know how 

20 important that is for kids not to play with lead, 

21 and we learned that in later life a little too 

22 large, running behind the mosquito trucks that 
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1 sprayed all the kids, ran behind the trucks and 

2 breathed that stuff in. Hey, the mosquitoes 

3 weren't going to get into our bones, but no one 

4 knew at the time, no adults, no government saying 

5 do not let kids run behind the sprayer.

6 As an older adult and serving in Vietnam, 

7 the Agent Orange that was sprayed so that I could 

8 see in the jungle, thanks a lot, you know. Did 

9 you check out really what it did besides destroy 

10 the plants?

11 Just asbestos as a kid, they passed 

12 around samples of asbestos in the classroom and 

13 told us the importance of asbestos and how it 

14 prevents fires and keep fires from going. We 

15 actually touched, smelled, and played with it. 

16 Nowadays when there's asbestos discovered in ap 

17 lace, it's a hazardous -- you know, put the 

18 plastic up, get the people out of there, get the 

19 respirators on. We learned a little bit too 

20 late.

21 Something as simple as sun tan oil, 

22 laying on the beach and put that baby oil on 
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1 until you turn brown, we know the dangers of 

2 being out in the sun. We learned it as adults, 

3 but we didn't know it then.

4 But there are things that we know now, 

5 and that's about clean air. We know it, and we 

6 need to treat it like we did the mercury, like we 

7 did with the lead. It's toxic. It's bad for us, 

8 and as adults, as a former union officer, I 

9 believe in leadership, and I believe there's 

10 people in positions that can make those 

11 leadership decisions that are important to your 

12 members.

13 Your members are the people of the United 

14 States, and I'm one of them now, a retired 

15 officer, depending on the EPA and the government 

16 to guide us. Let's step up to the plate. Let's 

17 be the heroes. We like to say everybody is a 

18 hero nowadays, but you guys are on the position 

19 as government employees to step up. Let's make 

20 the decisions that really help the people and 

21 help the future of our country, so that people 

22 won't play with mercury anymore or play with the 
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1 lead. 

2 I thank you for the opportunity, and 

3 let's do a good job. Thank you.

4 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

5 [Applause.]

6 MR. HARVEY: Mr. Atkinson.

7 MR. ATKINSON: Good afternoon. Curtis 

8 Atkinson representing NAACP.

9 I'm a social worker and a government 

10 employee who resides here in the Greater 

11 Washington, D.C., area. I would like to first 

12 thank you for this opportunity for regular 

13 citizens such as myself to express concerns to 

14 the EPA.

15 I have never done anything like this 

16 before in my life. I am a true grass-roots 

17 social worker, but I felt compelled to be here 

18 today and attempt to broaden my horizons and 

19 explore my call of class equality on a more macro 

20 level.

21 I work with the most challenging inner22 city schools in the nation. Besides being 
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1 underfunded, a greater common threat exists 

2 between schools in the inner city. Urban 

3 educational environment suffer from other 

4 factors, which hinders success. Absenteeism from 

5 high rates of asthma have been well documented.

6 Asthma affects African Americans at a 

7 rate of 36 percent higher than that of other 

8 Americans. African Americans are hospitalized 

9 for asthma at a rate of two to three times the 

10 rate of other Americans and die of asthma at a 

11 rate of twice that of other Americans.

12 Many children reside in urban locations 

13 also have been diagnosed with learning 

14 disabilities, high lead levels, and attention 

15 deficit hyperactivity disorder. I am not 

16 hypothesizing that pollution is a direct cause of 

17 ADHD or other mental health issues that plague 

18 our society, but I do believe it's time that we 

19 as a society begin to explore the organic origins 

20 of such issues.

21 Many studies have been conducted that 

22 reference environmental impacts. Those studies 
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1 define environmental and socioeconomic factors, 

2 but I would like to define environmental impact 

3 as a more livable term.

4 Approximately, 68 percent of African 

5 Americans live within 30 miles of coal-fired 

6 power plants, which is a zone highest of impact 

7 from exposure of toxins, pollutants, and other 

8 issues from coal plants.

9 According to studies, carbon dioxide 

10 pollution creates a dome which traps and 

11 concentrated increases the effects of other 

12 toxins inhaled like mercury, arsenic, lead, 

13 sulfur dioxide, and nitrogen oxide, which also 

14 emit from power plants.

15 Air pollutants are connected to extreme 

16 health problems, such as brain damage, birth 

17 defects, heart disease, cancer, and premature 

18 death. Lead exposure has been linked to learning 

19 problems, including ADHD.

20 Between learning challenges and high out21 of-school rates for children with asthma, 

22 African-American children often face a high 
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1 burden of barriers for success. We know too well 

2 the linkage between school success and the risk 

3 of incarceration.

4 Studies show that a lack of school 

5 success is the greatest indicator of the link of 

6 behavior stability. A solid education provides 

7 greater opportunities for success. Those who are 

8 unable to perform in school often become 

9 disenfranchised, which leads to anti-social 

10 behavior. People with ADHD commit crimes of a 

11 much higher rate for the same reasons as those 

12 without ADHD, sometimes simple as wanting money 

13 or property that belongs to others and have 

14 little motivation to acquire those assets 

15 honestly.

16 Those with ADHD also have other triggers 

17 for crimes. Adolescents and adults with 

18 untreated ADHD are often bored, sensation19 seeking, or simply impulsive, and this 

20 combination of attributes leads them to poor 

21 judgment, a desired item, that's what they want, 

22 so they take it off peers, that individuals with 
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1 ADHD commit violent crimes. These acts are more 

2 likely to lead to crimes spontaneous or reactive 

3 aggressive rather than carefully plotted our 

4 defenses.

5 Such crimes are generally impulsive acts 

6 driven by provocation or conflict that triggers 

7 an outburst. Research with adult male offenders 

8 seems to bear out this hypothesis. Studies show 

9 that at least 25 percent of prisoners in the 

10 United States have ADHD.

11 The recidivism rate among felons is high, 

12 and an estimated two-thirds are arrested --

13 excuse me -- rearrested within 3 years. These 

14 statistics have important implications for 

15 society at large.

16 I would like to commend the EPA for 

17 taking this very important first step. I 

18 sincerely hope that this is a gateway to greater 

19 regulation for new plants or more importantly for 

20 existing locations. We cannot allow big business 

21 to tell us what they can't do. It is our job as 

22 citizens to ensure that all Americans receive 
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1 equal protection and the opportunity to thrive.

2 Passive of the carbon pollution standards 

3 will ensure that communities worldwide will not 

4 face new threats from plants that will degrade 

5 their health today and have everlasting societal 

6 impacts such as ruining the physical, emotional, 

7 and mental health of those who have no choice but 

8 to live within the path of destruction of mining 

9 plants.

10 Thank you.

11 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

12 [Applause.]

13 MR. HARVEY: Thank you both for your 

14 compelling testimony and for sharing your time 

15 with us today.

16 Our next speakers, Deborah McKinney and 

17 Steve Harvey.

18 We will start with Ms. McKinney. Again, 

19 if you could introduce yourself, and then let us 

20 know, and we'll get you started. And move the 

21 microphone close to you, so we can hear you.

22 MS. McKINNEY: Okay.
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1 MR. HARVEY: Great.

2 MS. McKINNEY: Good afternoon. My name 

3 is Deborah McKinney, and I -- [inaudible].

4 I am a single African-American woman with 

5 no children, a master's degree, two jobs, no 

6 health insurance, and like many people who aren't 

7 able to come speak with you today, I struggle to 

8 afford healthy food to eat.

9 I currently live in Ward 7, which has one 

10 of the District's highest poverty rates. It's 

11 also known for being a food desert in terms of 

12 access to healthy nutritious food and quality 

13 options.

14 There are instead liquor stores, corner 

15 stores selling phone cards, cigarettes. Why is 

16 this important? Because when you consider the 

17 fact that there is such limited options for 

18 nutritious foods and the fact that the air that 

19 people are forced to breathe in these communities 

20 insurance contaminated with pollution, you are 

21 creating a recipe for socioeconomic and 

22 educational disaster.
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1 The District of Columbia, which 

2 unfortunately does not have benefits of State 

3 status, is one of the highest concentrated rates 

4 in the country particularly for children. The 

5 prevalence of asthma among children age zero to 

6 17 is higher in D.C. than nationwide.

7 I personally suffer from breathing and 

8 skin conditions no doctor can explain the source 

9 of. I have no doubt that poor air quality of 

10 Ward 7 combined with other environmental 

11 conditions are contributing factors. There are, 

12 in fact, studies that supports my concerns.

13 I intend to do my part by limiting my 

14 consumption of waste, recycling, taking public 

15 transportation more often, and learning, 

16 teaching, and practicing more green living. 

17 However, what shall be done about my friends and 

18 family members I have lost to cancer or to my 

19 friends with serious challenges with fibro tumors 

20 that, again, no medical research can point to the 

21 extended causes of? Some of these women have 

22 fibroids to such great effect that they had to 
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1 forfeit their uteruses.

2 I can only ask that you remember that the 

3 air pollution standards which all of us and that 

4 people of color and poor people often endure, and 

5 we have to find a change. I ask the EPA to pass 

6 and enforce standards that protect and enhance 

7 all communities.

8 A good friend of mine sometimes says to 

9 me if the right thing was easy to do, everyone 

10 would do it. Enacting strict regulations on air 

11 pollution is an imperative, and I implore you to 

12 do the right thing for inhabitants this country. 

13 Thank you.

14 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

15 [Applause.]

16 MR. HARVEY: Next is Mr. Harvey.

17 MR. [Steve] HARVEY: Good afternoon. My 

18 name is Steve Harvey. I traveled here today from 

19 Philadelphia where I live with my wife and 

20 children and where I work as a lawyer.

21 My children, Jack and Paige, are 9 and 8 

22 years old. As a family, we spend a lot of time 
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1 outdoors riding on bikes, gardening, playing 

2 baseball, golf, tennis, we hike, and I am a daily 

3 bike commuter. I ride my bike back and forth to 

4 work every day, 365 days a year, except in the 

5 most extreme weather.

6 I lead a pretty busy life. So I had to 

7 ask myself on the train today: What am I doing 

8 spending my own money on train fare and missing 

9 work to come down here to Washington, D.C., to 

10 testify at an EPA hearing? And the answer that 

11 came back to me quickly was pretty compelling, 

12 because the issue of controlling CO2 emissions is 

13 perhaps the biggest public policy issue of our 

14 time, one we can control if we get on top of it 

15 as a society. It directly affects me and my 

16 family.

17 Perhaps the biggest policy issue of our 

18 time. Really? Is it up there with slavery, 

19 civil rights, and opposition to totalitarianism, 

20 to name just a few?

21 I think most people would agree our 

22 scientists have reached a broad consensus that 
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1 the CO2 emissions are causing global warming, and 

2 if not controlled soon will lead to devastating 

3 environmental, economic, and health consequences 

4 in our times and those of our children.

5 Given those predictions, can we really 

6 afford not to act? What will we say to our 

7 children and their children? That we were too

8 busy? That we weren't willing to adjust our 

9 lives so that they would be able to enjoy life? 

10 If some citizens can give up their lives in time 

11 of war, we can certainly find it in ourselves to 

12 act to protect our environment, our economy, and 

13 our life.

14 But the good news, the really important 

15 news is that the problem can be managed if we act 

16 soon, and I commend the EPA for taking this 

17 important first step. This steps seems to me 

18 obviously right. 

19 I submit to you that in light of the 

20 economic and new cause of uncontrolled CO2

21 emissions that the next step addressing existing 

22 plants will also be a no-brainer. The short-term 
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1 economic cost of not complying with the efforts 

2 to control CO2 emissions are a grain of sand in 

3 comparison.

4 On behalf of myself, but more importantly 

5 my children and their children someday, I 

6 encourage you to take this first step. The cost 

7 of not acting is far too great.

8 [Applause.]

9 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

10 Our next speakers, Royal Mayo and Doug 

11 Peters, please come up to the front.

12 We still start with Mr. Mayo.

13 MR. MAYO: This is my little man. He 

14 goes with me everywhere.

15 Hello. My name is Royal Mayo. I am here 

16 representing the Ohio State Conference of the 

17 NAACP as well as the Steubenville, Ohio, unit of 

18 the NAACP, and my concerns for citizens 

19 everywhere.

20 First, let me start by saying that 

21 elected official want to hurt businesses or stop 

22 job growth is just silly. The idea to save lives 
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1 and improve the quality of life for citizens is 

2 what we're all about.

3 I can't remember anybody criticizing Big 

4 Government or the EPA about regulations after the 

5 oil spill of BP a couple of years ago.

6 I was born in Steubenville, Ohio, in 

7 1967. Three years later, the EPA was created, 

8 and the Clean Air Act was passed. Originally, 

9 the EPA was empowered to determine safe limits 

10 and to regulate six major pollutants between 1970 

11 and 2010. It was expanded to 189.

12 In 1974, Harvard began a six-city guide 

13 based on particle pollution in the air; Portage 

14 County, Wisconsin, because it had the best air, 

15 and Steubenville, Ohio, because it was considered 

16 the worst. The study showed that Portage had 26 

17 percent fewer deaths related to heart and lung 

18 disease than Steubenville had during the same 

19 period of time. My question is what made the air 

20 in Steubenville so bad and more importantly the 

21 people so unhealthy?

22 For years, the Ohio Valley as located was 
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1 known as the industrial and labor intensive town, 

2 just 39 miles from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. We 

3 had two steel mills, Wheeling-Pittsburgh Steel 

4 and National Steel. Sometime in the middle of 

5 the 20th century, coal-fired power plants joined 

6 the landscape of major employers and major 

7 environmental damaging corporations.

8 Steubenville is the county seat of 

9 Jefferson County, and within 36 miles of 

10 Steubenville, you have three coal-fired power 

11 plants. The first one, farthest away, 36 miles 

12 away, owned by First Energy; the second one owned 

13 by First Energy is the Cardinal plant in 

14 Brilliant, Ohio; and also the Sammis plant in 

15 Stratton, Ohio.

16 First Energy said its largest plant in 

17 Ohio is the first energy plant. I don't know if 

18 any community in this country has so many coal19 fired plants as close together as Steubenville 

20 does, nor the cancer-related deaths and heart 

21 disease caused by the air pollutants.

22 Now, let me tell you why it's personal to 
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1 me. I am a third generation of my family in 

2 Steubenville, Ohio. My father's parents came to 

3 Steubenville from different towns in Georgia. In 

4 the 20th century, they met in Steubenville. My 

5 paternal grandparents came later, my grandfather 

6 from Georgia and my grandmother from North 

7 Carolina. All four of them left the Jim Crow 

8 South pretty much for the same reason: better9 paying jobs in the North and escape the racism of 

10 the South.

11 I lost three of my four grandparents to 

12 environmental hazards that they faced from living 

13 in Steubenville, Ohio. The hazards are directly 

14 created to the air, the poor air in the city.

15 In 1999, both my mother's parents died 90 

16 days apart. My grandfather died of lung cancer 

17 on August 11th, and my grandmother died from an 

18 asthma attack on November 10th. At the time of 

19 my grandfather's death, he had an older sister 

20 and two aunts living. They would come North to 

21 visit him, and when they would come North, his 

22 older aunts would have to get him something to 
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1 drink, because he just didn't have the strength 

2 to get up. Eighteen months later, my last 

3 grandmother died from cancer as well.

4 Now, that's a part of my past. Let me 

5 tell you my future. I have a 2-year-old son, 

6 Royal IV, who I have with me here today. I also 

7 have three older children, and I am expecting my 

8 first granddaughter any day now. I have a 

9 younger brother with three kids, all in 

10 Steubenville. Many of my closest friends and 

11 relatives also live in Steubenville.

12 I am thankful for the government

13 regulation responsible for the $1.7-billion 

14 Bechtel plant project, the Sammis plant in 

15 Stratton, Ohio, designed to decrease the air 

16 pollution. The problem is the job of the CEO and 

17 ADP at First Energy is to make money. Like any 

18 other business, the cheaper it is to make your 

19 product, the more profits you make.

20 When you cut costs, you sometimes cut 

21 corners, and when you cut corners, something or 

22 someone has to suffer. In today's world, 
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1 government regulations are viewed as jobs and 

2 wealth killers.

3 I like to think that they are there to 

4 add the quality of life. More money doesn't 

5 always mean a better quality of life. I can 

6 still remember how sick my grandfather was in his 

7 last days after living in those conditions for so 

8 many years.

9 Not only are good jobs needed, but we 

10 also need clean air, water, and a healthy ozone 

11 layer, and as hard as we talk about we don't need 

12 to pass debt on to our kids, we don't need to 

13 pass a dirty planet on to them, either.

14 In closing, I would like to say with the 

15 political climate as it is today, for the sake of 

16 our children, I pay the politicians. Don't play 

17 with the health of our environment with the 

18 recent disasters. Like the BP oil spill and the 

19 Japanese nuclear disaster, I would like to think 

20 that we need you guys more than ever.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
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1 [Applause.]

2 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for coming from 

3 Ohio with your family too.

4 Next, Doug Peters.

5 MR. PETERS: Good afternoon. My name is 

6 Doug Peters. I served 5 years in the United 

7 States Marine Corps, and in those 5 years, I 

8 participated in both Afghanistan and Iraq 

9 invasions.

10 I am here today to speak on behalf of 

11 Operation Free Veterans across America that 

12 believe that our nation's fossil fuel addiction 

13 and our contribution to climate change threaten 

14 our national security.

15 We believe this proposal that will limit 

16 carbon pollution from new power plants is crucial 

17 to reducing threatens to this nation's security.

18 The time I spent overseas, especially the 

19 time I spent in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the 

20 broader Middle East serves as a wake-up call. I 

21 realize that the manner in which America would 

22 have -- I'm sorry. I realize the manner in which 
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1 American would have to interact with the world's 

2 underprivileged populations going forward had 

3 changed.

4 New threats had emerged. New threats 

5 continue to emerge, unconventional-type threats. 

6 One of those unconventional threats is climate 

7 change. In light of the proposed rule to limit 

8 carbon pollution from new power plants, I would 

9 like to address the threats that climate change 

10 poses to our national security.

11 Climate change is such a viable threat 

12 that the Pentagon has already started to prepare 

13 contingencies for scenarios exacerbated by 

14 climate change, and it's focused on these issues 

15 in its quadrennial defense review, as does the 

16 CIA and State Department in their reviews and 

17 policies.

18 According to the Pentagon, climate change 

19 along does not cause conflicts, but it makes 

20 already combustible situations much worse.

21 Climate change is much different than 

22 traditional military threats, obviously. It is 
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1 what the military calls a threat multiplier. The 

2 effects of climate change will destabilize 

3 governments, turning fragile states into failed 

4 states, spark mass migrations of populations, and 

5 create refugee situations, increased conflicts 

6 over water and agricultural resources, and in the 

7 end, these situations can lead to safe havens to 

8 hide and recruit desperate members of refugee 

9 populations.

10 I have seen firsthand how desperate 

11 people can become when they lack something as 

12 simple as water, and as if anybody has tried to 

13 find a working water fountain in this building, 

14 you would know sometime inconvenient.

15 During the lead up to the Iraqi invasion, 

16 I was briefly based in Bahrain. I will never 

17 forget the time when immigrant workers from 

18 Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh came desperately 

19 begging to my Marines for water on 120-degree20 plus day. These poor immigrant workers were 

21 being treated worse than livestock.

22 I will never forget the desperation in 
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1 the workers' eyes and a decision and calculation 

2 I had to make as a sergeant to give away as much 

3 water as I thought I could without putting my 

4 Marines at risk.

5 It turns out, it was a good decision, 

6 because those workers later provided intelligence 

7 on possible threats to my Marines and other 

8 service members stationed on that base. These 

9 desperate workers were being used by people who 

10 wish to know about the internal workings of the 

11 base in order to carry out a task.

12 Bottom line, those workers could have 

13 easily turned to people who wished us harm, 

14 desperation, if they had not gotten some relief 

15 and a little bit of kindness from my Marines.

16 What I want you to remember is people can 

17 do horrible things out of desperation, including 

18 turning to terrorists for help or fighting with 

19 neighboring populations that they would not 

20 normally fight.

21 As crops dry up, temperatures change, and 

22 farmlands are flooded, people have to move to 
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1 more sustainable lands, and this creates conflict 

2 for the people who already had the resources that 

3 come from those sustainable lands.

4 For example, one of the instigating 

5 factors of the genocide in Darfur was reduced 

6 grazing and farmland.

7 By 2050, there may be as many as 200 

8 million climate refugees across the world, which 

9 will destabilize nearby countries.

10 India, for example, already built a 

11 2,500-mile fence along the border with Bangladesh 

12 to keep climate refugees out. Natural disasters 

13 will also increase the change in weather patterns 

14 and the intensity and frequency of storms.

15 In 2011, floods in Pakistan, for example, 

16 affected thousands of people, people the U.S. 

17 honestly does not want in such desperate 

18 situations.

19 Whether future conflicts and crises are 

20 caused by drought, starvation, mass migration, or 

21 rising sea levels, the U.S. military will be 

22 asked to respond in one way or another, either 
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1 through forests or humanitarian assistance or 

2 both, and that is because the U.S. military is 

3 the only organization in the world that has the 

4 strength, the know-how, and the resources to 

5 respond to conflicts or disaster.

6 This responsibility will be in addition 

7 to the preexisting wars and challenges the U.S. 

8 military already faces, effectually multiplying 

9 the burden on our troops. I believe one of the 

10 most misunderstood and underfelt aspects of the 

11 detriments and challenges currently facing our 

12 military is the continuous deployment cycle.

13 Now, the U.S. military will always step 

14 up. That's just what we do, but when troops are 

15 on their third, fourth, and fifth deployments to 

16 Afghanistan and previously Iraq, this cycle 

17 places a tremendous fiscal and psychological 

18 burden on their troops and families. That burden 

19 will only be intensified if our military is 

20 forced to respond to threats posed and 

21 exacerbated by climate change.

22 For this reason, implementation of the 
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1 EPA's proposed carbon pollution standards 

2 complements the military's efforts to mitigate 

3 the devastating effects of climate change. As a 

4 veteran and a member of Operation Free, I am 

5 proud to be here today in support of the EPA, an 

6 agency whose primary mission is to protect 

7 American people.

8 The EPA's efforts to encourage the 

9 development of clean, alternative sources of 

10 energy are imperative to our national security.

11 Thank you.

12 [Applause.]

13 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for your detailed 

14 testimony. That's very helpful.

15 Thank you both.

16 We are going to take another short break. 

17 We are going to go off record until we have 

18 other speakers.

19 [Recess taken from 4:01 to 4:07 p.m.]

20 MR. HARVEY: Let's go back on the record.

21 Our next speaker is Jennifer Janssen. If 

22 you could spell your name?
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1 MS. JANSSEN: Yes. Hi. My name is 

2 Jennifer, J-E-N-N-I-F-E-R, Janssen, J-A-N-S-S-E3 N.

4 So I am going to speak in strong support 

5 of limits to carbon pollution for new coal-fired 

6 power plants and hopefully existing coal-fired 

7 power plants soon and then hopefully everything 

8 else after that.

9 I work at the National Wildlife 

10 Federation in the Great Lakes Regional Center, 

11 but I am really speaking as myself. So I just 

12 wanted to share something that I've gone through 

13 in the last year in how it's come to thinking 

14 about carbon pollution and standards that the EPA 

15 has worked so hard to get.

16 I studied at the School of Natural 

17 Resources at the University of Michigan, and I 

18 understand how increasing extreme weather causes 

19 more runoff, causes more pollution in our lakes, 

20 plus the increased evaporation, and all of this 

21 stuff with pollution and impacts of wildlife, 

22 which I spent my days mobilizing people to 
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1 understand climate through wildlife and really 

2 get impasse, things they love.

3 I get all of that, but I had to put my 

4 head around this health impact thing. How does 

5 carbon connect to health? I didn't really get 

6 it. I think the very first time I was mobilized 

7 -- not mobilized -- got an awareness of the 

8 environment was as a 3-year-old, and my mother 

9 reminds me there is a drought. There is this big 

10 field behind our house, and I was so nervous 

11 about the drought.

12 I think that Lisa Van Susteren who is a 

13 psychiatrist, psychologist, who works at NWF on 

14 our board, is speaking in the other room right 

15 now about the mental health impacts of climate 

16 change. So you can talk about that later. 

17 But as a 3-year-old, I saw that drought. 

18 So when you're seeing this extreme weather, I 

19 understand how it's impacting wildlife with 

20 floods and drought and habitat changes. I didn't 

21 get that health impact until recently when I was 

22 at the mercury hearing in Chicago, just last 
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1 year.

2 I was listening to someone testify about 

3 how it impacts people who have respiratory 

4 disease. They are going to end up in the 

5 hospital more frequently. I thought, oh, people 

6 with respiratory disease, that's me. I never 

7 thought about it. I'm young and healthy, but 

8 actually not. I have degenerative respiratory 

9 disease that my mother also has. I thought, oh, 

10 okay, now I get it. The ozone days, the increase 

11 in pollen counts, you know, if you have all this 

12 stuff draining from here, it's terrible for your 

13 lungs. I barely have allergies, but I'm on 

14 allergy medicine to protect my lungs.

15 So I just wanted to come and say I am a 

16 person. I am who they are talking about, and my 

17 mother, they are talking about even more, because 

18 she's 65. She's had the same hereditary disease 

19 for longer, and so she has to have the air20 conditioning on. Whenever she visits her family 

21 in Michigan, she gets sick, because their windows 

22 are open. More air conditioning means more 
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1 climate change, which is terrible, but it's 

2 hotter. And with allergies and pollen getting 

3 worse, she stays inside with her air conditioning 

4 on.

5 The other thing about increasing the use 

6 of electricity, but she needs to be outside. I 

7 need to be outside. She needs to be using her 

8 kayaks. She needs to be able to mow the lawn. 

9 She needs to be out walking. She needs to be --

10 she needs to stay healthy and live longer and not 

11 get an infection that could kill her, but she 

12 can't, because when the air is bad, she can't go 

13 outside. When the pollen counts are higher, she 

14 can't go outside.

15 When I'm older, that's going to be my 

16 life as well, which is really scary to me. Even 

17 now, I live in Ann Arbor, but I'm the only person 

18 in my house who has an air conditioner in their 

19 window, and it protects my lungs from the air --

20 and, you know, an outdoorsy person.

21 So that's sort of my progression. I 

22 really understand that connection between what 
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1 you're trying to do to protect public health and 

2 my life and my love of the outdoors, that we all 

3 need to live outside not only to feel that 

4 connection with labor which is so healthy for our 

5 lives and healthy to understand how we're 

6 connected with wildlife that are showing signs 

7 and stuff that's going to affect us too, but it's 

8 also healthy and important for our lungs, for our 

9 health, and we can't do that if it's going to get 

10 worse as pollen counts go up, as extreme weather 

11 and droughts make it harder to be outside.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: Thank you.

14 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much for 

15 sharing your story with us.

16 [Applause.]

17 MR. HARVEY: We have -- is Sarah Meservey 

18 here yet?

19 If you could start by spelling your name.

20 MS. MESERVEY: Sarah Meservey, M-e-s-e-r21 v-e-y. I'm a high school math teacher. I live 

22 in Arlington, Virginia.
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1 My 16-year-old son recently testified in 

2 front of the Virginia State Corporation 

3 Commission, and he is in his environmental club, 

4 and he represented them. I told him to make a 

5 speech, like I tried to do, and he didn't, but he 

6 made visuals, the way kids like to in high 

7 school. And he asked me to bring them along, and 

8 so I have.

9 He talked about -- he told he's loved 

10 science. He told all the science, about the CO2, 

11 and what's happening after 600,000 years and how 

12 frightening it is to kids his age.

13 This, by the way -- I'm a math teacher, 

14 and this makes awesome data for regressions, 

15 unfortunately, and kids in high school always 

16 ask, you know, "What's everyone doing about it 

17 when they see this?" And, you know, I can say 

18 almost nothing. It's hard to say that, but this 

19 is what he talked about. And he talked about 

20 weather-related disasters in Northern Virginia. 

21 We see them all the time. Every other day, we're 

22 talking about, you know, something new that's 
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1 never happened.

2 This is where his school golf team 

3 practices nearby, never seen flooding like that. 

4 I'm sure a lot of the people who have those cars 

5 there were a little surprised.

6 He was really at the meeting at the 

7 commission to talk about Virginia and their 

8 resources that they have for wind energy, and I'm 

9 not sure what -- I guess this is the capacity 

10 they have. You can see Virginia is not doing 

11 anything about that.

12 And his -- you know, at the end, he was 

13 really -- he found these graphics about what 

14 Virginia is doing, and it's really -- he's 

15 pointing out -- well, New Jersey is third up 

16 there, so Virginia, you know, we could be doing 

17 something. We have as much sun as they do, but 

18 what he really -- what really moved me is at the 

19 end, he said, you know, why can't -- well, he 

20 asked specifically why can't we be doing this in 

21 Virginia. Why do we have to be bringing down the 

22 national average? That was his question to the 
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1 commission.

2 And I think it's relevant to our country. 

3 You know, we may not be down at the very bottom, 

4 but we are creating some of the biggest problem, 

5 and, you know, why can't we be our innovative 

6 selves? Why can't we be up there at the top?

7 He was really so eloquent. I would have 

8 liked to have brought him here, but he's taking 

9 his SOLs with my other son -- has traveled a 

10 distance to be here and represent our family.

11 I know it's out of fashion to talk about 

12 being a good steward of the earth and doing the 

13 right thing and being ethical. That's not --

14 it's about making money now, jobs, that kind of 

15 thing. Well, you know, it's an amazing 

16 confluence right now of jobs. You know, doing 

17 the right thing is coming together with being a 

18 good steward.

19 I just keep reading about it. There's 

20 study after study showing us that investments in 

21 the renewables can create an unparalleled job 

22 growth, and, you know, all these countries are 
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1 jumping on the band wagon.

2 Virginia is left way behind, and we need 

3 the government to do something about it, because 

4 it's not going to happen in Virginia if you guys 

5 don't do something. I mean, nothing is going to 

6 happen, really.

7 You know, we're in this fix now because 

8 we didn't make individuals in industries pay for 

9 the pollution. If I like drive down the highway 

10 and throw trash out my window, I mean, I'm going 

11 to get in trouble, aren't I? I mean, why are 

12 these companies allowed to pollute as much as 

13 they do?

14 And then on top of it, insult to injury, 

15 you know, we have to pay massive subsidies to 

16 them. It's real bizarre. I mean, there's a lot 

17 of just normal people like me who are not radical 

18 at all who are upset with that.

19 In closing, my principal at my school 

20 always says no excuses. He says that all the 

21 time, and he means, you know, don't tell me the 

22 kids are lazy, inspire them. You know, don't 
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1 come up with 5,000 reasons why the kids in your 

2 class couldn't pass the exams, you know, do 

3 something about it. And he's always there with 

4 resources for us, but he always says no excuses.

5 And that's what I'm saying. You know, we 

6 need results from our government, and we need to 

7 bring down the level of CO2. We need to bring it 

8 down drastically, actually, and we need to do it 

9 like yesterday.

10 So I think this agency is tasked with 

11 protecting the environment, and ordinary citizens 

12 like me expect it to do its job. And we're 

13 starting to think that there might be some hope 

14 here. So, no matter what the pressure, we have 

15 to say no excuses. You need to put forth and 

16 enhance the strongest carbon pollution standard 

17 that could come about.

18 Thank you.

19 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much for your 

20 eloquent talk.

21 [Applause.]

22 MR. HARVEY: We will be happy to take 
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1 anything that you would like to give us.

2 MS. MESERVEY: Oh, okay.

3 MR. HARVEY: We can enter it in the 

4 docket or whatever you'd like to do. We can take 

5 a hard copy or electronically, whichever you 

6 prefer.

7 MS. MESERVEY: Thank you.

8 MR. HARVEY: Okay. Our next speaker is 

9 Susana Heinitz.

10 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: If you would like 

11 your son's items in the record --

12 MR. HARVEY: Yeah, we could also --

13 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: -- we could also. 

14 Those are your only copy, but you can submit them 

15 in writing later too.

16 MR. HARVEY: Or -- yeah.

17 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: Up until what date?

18 MR. HARVEY: The 25th of June.

19 MS. MESERVEY: Okay.

20 MR. HARVEY: Susanna Heinitz.

21 MS. HILDEBRAND: Is it possible you are 

22 reading the wrong last name?
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1 MR. HARVEY: H-E-I-N-I-T-Z?

2 MS. HILDEBRAND: The first name?

3 MR. HARVEY: S-U-S-A-N-A.

4 MS. HILDEBRAND: That's my name. My last 

5 name is Hildebrand.

6 MR. HARVEY: Well, would you like to

7 speak?

8 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: You did sign up?

9 MR. HARVEY: Did you sign up to speak?

10 MS. HILDEBRAND: I did sign up.

11 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: And they told you 

12 to come here, right?

13 MS. HILDEBRAND: What's that?

14 MR. KETCHAM-COLWILL: And they told you 

15 to come in this room?

16 MS. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

17 MR. HARVEY: Okay. Well, let's go ahead.

18 You can start by spelling your name 

19 correctly for us. We'll make sure that we'll get 

20 you in the record.

21 MS. HILDEBRAND: My name is Susana 

22 Hildebrand, first name S-U-S-A-N-A, last name, 
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1 Hildebrand, H-I-L-D-E-B-R-A-N-D.

2 I am the chief engineer for the Texas 

3 Commission on Environmental Quality, and I 

4 appreciate the opportunity to provide comments on 

5 EPA's proposed carbon pollution standards for new 

6 power plants.

7 The TCQ will be submitting extensive 

8 written comments on the proposal, and in the 5 

9 minutes I have here, I will speak about TCQ's 

10 major concerns with the rules. There are two 

11 main points. One, there is no apparent need for 

12 this rule. The second, that if EPA does not --

13 does proceed, there are multiple aspects that are 

14 inconsistent with Section 111 of the Clean Air 

15 Act of the EPA policy.

16 The EPA has not adequately demonstrated 

17 the need for the proposed rule. The EPA states 

18 that the proposed rule will limit GHG emissions 

19 from the largest stationary source category and 

20 that it is necessary to protect against projected 

21 climate change impacts and risks. However, the 

22 EPA then posits there will be no costs or benefit 
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1 associated with the rule, and that the rule will

2 not result in any emission reductions.

3 The Clean Air Act says that the 

4 Administrator, quote, "shall include a category 

5 of sources in such list if in his judgment, it 

6 causes or contributes significantly to air 

7 pollution which may reasonably be anticipated to 

8 endanger public health or welfare." Yet, if one 

9 were to believe EPA's analysis that no new coal10 fired will be built through 2013 without carbon 

11 capture and storage, CCS, how can one reasonably 

12 anticipate that no new sources and no new 

13 emissions from those sources could reasonably 

14 endanger public health or welfare?

15 A number of the aspects of the proposed 

16 is inconsistent with the Federal Clean Air Act. 

17 First, EPA must conduct a new endangerment and 

18 cause and contribute finding for this newly 

19 created source category and may not rely on the 

20 2009 finding for sources of GHG. EPA proposes to 

21 create a new category by combining two existing 

22 and separate categories under the NSPS rules, 
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1 specifically for the purpose of setting standards 

2 for CO2 only and no other pollutants.

3 The EPA cannot rely on previous findings 

4 of endangerment and cause and contribute from 

5 coal-fired EGEs, because those previous findings 

6 were based no non-EGE air pollutants that have 

7 very different characteristics than GHG. GHG are 

8 unique in their scope and air quality impacts.

9 Further, the proposed standard is to 

10 limit emissions of CO2 from a fraction of the 

11 sources of GHG worldwide, with specific 

12 contribution to climate change has not been 

13 determined.

14 Another major concern is that the Federal 

15 Clean Air Act Section 111(b)(5) clearly 

16 stipulates that the U.S. EPA is not authorized to 

17 require any particular control -- particular 

18 testimony -- sorry -- particular technological 

19 system of continuous emission reduction to comply 

20 with any new source standard of pollution. The 

21 Federal Clean Air Act definition of a 

22 technological system of continuous emission 
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1 reduction includes production or operational 

2 processes that are inherently low pollutant, non3 polluting, and natural gas-fired combined cycle 

4 units clearly mean this definition. The EPA is 

5 circumventing the clear intent of the Section 

6 111(b)(5) by setting this standard based on 

7 emissions from natural gas combined cycle units.

8 In addition, the EPA's proposal to create 

9 a new source category based solely on equipment 

10 function without any consideration for unit 

11 design or fuel type is contrary to NSPS precedent 

12 and previous case law.

13 The EPA is required to consider 

14 economical and technological feasibility when 

15 setting standard performance under Section 111. 

16 The EPA acknowledges that the 1,000 pound 

17 megawatt CO2 standard is not technologically 

18 feasible for other types of units without CCS, 

19 yet there has not been a single full-scale 

20 commercial demonstration of CCS on a coal-fired 

21 power plant. Not only has the EPA failed to 

22 demonstrate the feasibility of CCS on new coal-
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1 fired EGUs, they acknowledge that CCS is not 

2 economically feasible for a new coal-fired EGU 

3 without government-supported funding.

4 The EPA should not, and cannot, base 

5 regulation on future subsidies provided by other 

6 Federal agencies.

7 EPA cannot guarantee that such funding 

8 will be available for output in the future.

9 EPA claims they are complying with 

10 Executive Orders 12855 and 13563 by claiming the 

11 rule will have no noticeable compliance cost, 

12 because, in essence, there will be no coal-fired 

13 EGUs built in the future based on the prediction 

14 of low natural gas fuel prices. This flawed 

15 rationale based on EPA's predicted future 

16 economic scenario doesn't justify the EPA's 

17 failure to perform a proper economic analysis.

18 The EPA's analysis for Executive Order 

19 13211 is also based on the same premise, 

20 essentially a simple statement that the rule has 

21 no notable impact, energy supply distribution or 

22 use. Further, the EPA has not conducted an 
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1 adequate analysis of the potential impact to 

2 reliability that results from the scenario where 

3 natural gas prices are much higher than the 

4 projected -- than projected, and new coal-fired 

5 generation is no longer an option for the 

6 electric power industry.

7 Fuel prices --

8 MR. HARVEY: Your time has expired.

9 MS. HILDEBRAND: Okay. Two sentences.

10 Fuel prices have historically fluctuated 

11 over time and equal with the new drilling 

12 techniques that make greater supplies of natural 

13 gas available. There are no guarantees that fuel 

14 prices will not fluctuate in the future. If EPA 

15 predicts that for natural -- if EPA predictions 

16 for natural gas prices were wrong, as have been 

17 shown in the past, and takes away other fuel 

18 options by establishing rules to force the 

19 electric power generation sector to construct 

20 power plants that are the EPA's facilities of 

21 choice, the EPA is not only setting energy policy 

22 for the country but is also endangering reliable 
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1 and affordable electric power for the public.

2 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for your 

3 testimony.

4 MS. HILDEBRAND: Thank you.

5 MR. HARVEY: Our next speakers are Erin 

6 O'Sullivan and Melinda Erdberg.

7 Let's start with Ms. O'Sullivan. If you 

8 could spell your name first?

9 MS. O'SULLIVAN: Sure. It's Erin, E-R-I10 N, O'Sullivan, O, apostrophe, S-U-L-L-I-V-A-N.

11 Good afternoon. My name is Erin, and I 

12 live in Washington, D.C., and I am speaking today 

13 on behalf of the Moms Clean Air Force.

14 We are community of more than 52,000 moms 

15 and dads who care about clean air and kids' 

16 health. We read the health research on air 

17 pollution, and we have learned a lot about the 

18 health effects of breathing dirty air. We know 

19 that in its many forms, air pollution has been 

20 linked to the major health problems of our time. 

21 We know that -- we see that asthma attacks, 

22 heart attacks, heart disease, stroke, blood 
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1 cancer, premature death, emergency room visits, 

2 hospital admissions and more -- all of these 

3 health problems have been linked to air 

4 pollution.

5 Many of these problems harm our children 

6 in particular. We at Moms Clean Air Force think 

7 that's unacceptable.

8 I have with me and wish to submit the 

9 comments of more than 8,000 members of the Moms 

10 Clean Air Force in support of the proposed carbon 

11 pollution standard. These moms, dads, and 

12 grandparents know that protecting our children 

13 means preventing pollution.

14 Carbon pollution is disrupting our 

15 planet's climate, causing temperatures to rise. 

16 These rise in temperatures increase formation of 

17 ground-level ozone or smog, which triggers 

18 asthma. This is just one of the many health 

19 impacts that people from -- in a warming world.

20 After reviewing massive amounts of volume 

21 of research by leading climate scientists on smog 

22 formation and other climate impacts, the EPA has 
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1 found that carbon pollution is a threat to 

2 Americans. I am here to assert that carbon 

3 pollution is a health threat, especially for our 

4 children.

5 I am not a mom, but I am a cousin, a 

6 friend, and a neighbor, and too many of my 

7 friends and family are terrified to let their 

8 children play outside in the summer. Too many 

9 carry inhalers, and too many spend their days 

10 breathing the telltale wheeze that ends in the 

11 ER. And my family has been very fortunate. 

12 Others are not so lucky.

13 Take Michelle Murphy. She has two 

14 children with asthma. She lives in Massachusetts 

15 where wind currents carry pollutants from power 

16 plants, many of which are not in her State, and 

17 her community is formed in smog.

18 Her daughter, Mia, has such severe asthma 

19 that last year, blood vessels in her eyes burst 

20 from the coughing. Mia regularly has to take 5-

21 day courses of steroids for the asthma in which 

22 causes nightmares, outbursts, and uncontrollable 
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1 tears.

2 Rachel says, and I quote -- I'd like to 

3 quote -- "Cleaning up air pollution from coal4 fired power plants would have tremendous impact 

5 on my children's health," or take Chandra 

6 Baldwin-Woods whose son, Jovante, had a severe 

7 asthma attack almost 2 years ago in Ohio and died 

8 at the age of 16. He was one of more than 3,000 

9 people who die of asthma every year. Jovante was 

10 an athlete who had suffered from asthma since he 

11 was a baby. His sudden attack, which led to his 

12 death, is a horror to contemplate. Chandra says, 

13 and I quote, "Air pollution causes asthma attacks 

14 and can short the lives of those who you love 

15 most."

16 Our blog is full of stories from Chandra, 

17 Michelle, and so many others. We need to do 

18 everything we can to prevent children like 

19 Jovante from dying, to prevent the severe asthma 

20 attacks, to prevent the damage smog causes our 

21 children's lungs.

22 Reducing carbon pollution is a critical 
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1 step towards protecting their health. Our 

2 electric utilities claim that they have given us 

3 cheap electricity, but for Jovante's mom, it 

4 could not have been more expensive.

5 Moms have a lot of experience cleaning up 

6 messes. They know that most children won't clean 

7 up their own messes, and neither will our own 

8 power plants. Our children deserve a well9 regulated electric power industry that produces 

10 electricity from clean sources without 

11 destabilizing the climate, increasing smog 

12 levels, and associated respiratory health 

13 problems, and causing other grave effects of 

14 global warming.

15 It's the EPA's job to set the rules that 

16 will give us clean and safe power industry for 

17 all Americans and especially our children. 

18 Please finalize the carbon pollution standard for 

19 the sake of our children, and thank you for your 

20 time.

21 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for your 

22 testimony.
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1 Melinda Erdberg.

2 [Applause.]

3 MS. ERDBERG: Well, my name is Melinda 

4 Erdberg, and I live in Falls Church, Virginia. I 

5 am a member of the Sierra Club based in 

6 Alexandria, Virginia. I have probably been a 

7 member of the Sierra Club for many, many years, 

8 and I think it's because I became aware very 

9 early.

10 Way back in the 1970s, I was living in 

11 California, in Long Beach, working for an 

12 environmental engineering firm, and then I had an 

13 opportunity to move to Reston to their office 

14 there. And I thought, "Well, that would be kind 

15 of cool." Well, I loved it. I loved Reston, and 

16 I said, "Can I move here?" And everything has 

17 worked out, and I was fine, and I love the area.

18 But then -- I love riding my bike. So 

19 I'm riding my bike one day, right in the 

20 beginning of when I got there, and I had trouble 

21 breathing. I had never had that problem before. 

22 So it was a real problem. So I kept hoping, 
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1 well, it will go away, it will go away, and 

2 breathing as much air as I could, but none of 

3 that helped. It happened for days and days.

4 I had not been to a doctor in a long 

5 time, but I realized I needed to see a doctor. 

6 And the doctor said I had exercise-induced asthma 

7 and recommended that I use an inhaler, which 

8 helped quite a bit, and then -- it's funny. At 

9 the same time I learned about the connection 

10 between asthma and air quality and that Northern 

11 Virginia had one of the highest ratios of asthma 

12 on the East Coast.

13 I'm fortunate, because then I took a 

14 class in Pilates. So in addition to the inhaler, 

15 I was using Pilates breathing methods where you 

16 are breathing through the nose and out through 

17 the mouth, and that helped quite a bit, to an 

18 extent.

19 Then this year in March, I started having 

20 a slight wheezing problem. I had never had that 

21 before. It was really annoying, but it didn't 

22 keep me from making a trip to Richmond in March.
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1 Shortly after arriving, however, I 

2 noticed the wheezing had gotten a lot worse, and 

3 that's when I learned, amazingly, that Richmond 

4 had been named the Asthma Capital of the East 

5 Coast. Yes, it is. I think so.

6 And this time, the Pilates breathing 

7 techniques did not help that much. When I 

8 returned home to Falls Church, I continued to 

9 have the wheezing and breathing problem, and it 

10 got worse. So I saw a doctor once again. It was 

11 recommended that I go back on the inhaler, and so 

12 today, I continue to use the inhaler, but it's 

13 only one alternative.

14 I am also taking -- took a class in 

15 something called "Buteyko Breathing," which 

16 teaches you more about how to breathe through 

17 your nose only, not your mouth, and to breath 

18 slowly. Well, there's a lot to it, so it takes 

19 time and effort, but I think it's -- I am hoping 

20 it's going to help.

21 So, yes, I can ride my bike, but I'm also 

22 concerned about the air, especially for young 
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1 people. They're not used to air that has a lot 

2 of stuff in it. So I could either stay around 

3 here or I could move to a place where they don't 

4 have the effects of burning coal and oil. I 

5 don't know where that can be these days. Or, to 

6 keep me in this area, we could move toward solar 

7 and wind power, much more expressively, and I 

8 hope that we do.

9 I appreciate this opportunity to speak 

10 with you.

11 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much for your 

12 time and speaking with us.

13 [Applause.]

14 MR. HARVEY: Our next speaker is Leslie 

15 Fields.

16 If there's anyone else who would like to 

17 speak and has not, check with the gentleman in 

18 the corner, and he can put you on the list, but 

19 we're about to wrap up.

20 Ms. Fields, you may be our wrap-up.

21 MS. FIELDS: Okay. I'm a wrap-up. 

22 Great.
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1 MR. HARVEY: So whenever you are ready.

2 MS. FIELDS: Okay, thank you. Good 

3 afternoon. My name is Leslie Fields, and I am 

4 the Environmental Justice and Community 

5 Partnership's director at the Sierra Club here in 

6 Washington, D.C., and I really appreciate this 

7 opportunity to testify. And I want to thank you 

8 all for having this hearing here in D.C. as 

9 opposed to Crystal City. Thank you for doing 

10 that. It really has made it just much more 

11 convenient for folks, and that facility is really 

12 nice out there, but it's great that we're here.

13 You have no doubt gathered by now that 

14 the Sierra Club strongly supports the EPA's 

15 proposed carbon pollution standards for existing 

16 power plants. This proposed standard, as you 

17 know, which only applies to power plants built in 

18 the future is flexible and would help minimize 

19 carbon pollution due to deployment of the same 

20 types of modern technology and steps that the 

21 power companies have already taken to build the 

22 next-generation power plants.
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1 Currently, there is no uniform national 

2 limit on the amount of carbon pollution policy to 

3 emit. I would like to touch on what this rule 

4 means for communities of color and disadvantaged 

5 Americans.

6 As you well know, no doubt, among the 

7 scientists and epidemiologists, that these groups 

8 are disproportionately suffering from the effects 

9 of airborne pollution in this country, and I'm 

10 sure as you heard all day long that carbon 

11 pollution means increased temperatures, hotter 

12 summers, and therefore more smog. Smog is 

13 pervasive and a dangerous pollutant that 

14 endangers millions of Americans, but it's a 

15 particular problem for those suffering from 

16 asthma.

17 What does this mean for communities that 

18 suffer from environmental justice? Latinos, 

19 African Americans, Native Americans, Asian 

20 Americans, and poor Americans far too often get 

21 pollution from this country's astonishingly 

22 levels of energy consumption. This is a legacy 
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1 of discriminatory citing racism and economic -- a 

2 lot of African Americans and people of color live 

3 in neighborhoods with much higher exposure of air 

4 pollution of every type.

5 Nationwide, about 71 percent of African 

6 Americans and 80 percent of Hispanic Americans 

7 live in areas that fail to meet one or more EPA 

8 air quality standards as compared to about 57 

9 percent of Caucasian Americans. African 

10 Americans have the highest number of asthma 

11 attacks, while ethnic groups and African 

12 Americans from age 5 to 24 are five times more 

13 likely to die of asthma than Caucasian Americans.

14 All of this coupled with the fact that 

15 black and Hispanic people are less likely to have 

16 health insurance and access to treatment and 

17 preventative care.

18 Additionally, beyond the effects the 

19 planet will have on a number of asthma cases and 

20 other air pollution sicknesses, climate change 

21 particularly challenges the poor inner-city 

22 communities, heat waves experienced most 
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1 profoundly in the inner cities and metropolitan 

2 areas of disproportionate affect Latino 

3 Americans, African Americans, and other people of 

4 color.

5 My own late uncle suffered greatly 

6 respiratory problems during the Chicago heat wave 

7 of 1995. He was hospitalized at Cook County 

8 Hospital, which is now closed, and it really 

9 affected his quality of life. And he passed away 

10 a few years ago. It was a terrible, terrible 

11 time, and he didn't have health insurance.

12 Also, in economic terms, work 

13 productivity suffers when people with respiratory 

14 problems are exacerbated by the heat waves. He 

15 could no longer work because of his asthma during 

16 that heat wave. Also, children in a school, 

17 because of asthma attacks or other respiratory 

18 problems, their parents will miss out on work.

19 The National Security Community actually 

20 calls this "threat multiplier." The multiplied 

21 threats of not having health insurance or access 

22 to health care and also having to miss out on 
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1 work, having to juggle higher energy as opposed 

2 to -- or energy's cost are threat multipliers in 

3 these communities.

4 And so the communities that we work with 

5 in our program and around the country, everyone 

6 you have heard, we are all very, very 

7 appreciative to Administrator Jackson and EPA 

8 that these standards are being promulgated, and 

9 they mean a great deal to a cleaner, safer future 

10 for children and generations to come.

11 I want to really thank the EPA for their 

12 work in proposing these historic standards and 

13 urge their swift and speedy implementation.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much for your 

16 testimony.

17 [Applause.]

18 MR. HARVEY: Do we have anyone else?

19 No? Okay. I think we can declare the 

20 hearing, at least this overflow portion, 

21 concluded, so thank you all.

22 [Hearing adjourned at 4:40 p.m.]