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NOMINATIONS OF MICKEY D. BARNETT,

KATHERINE C. TOBIN, AND ELLEN C. WILLIAMS

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

ON THE

NOMINATIONS OF MICKEY D. BARNETT, KATHERINE C. TOBIN, AND 

ELLEN C. WILLIAMS, TO BE GOVERNORS OF THE U.S. POSTAL SERVICE

JUNE 28, 2006

Available via http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs

(

(II)

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Chairman 

TED STEVENS, Alaska 

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio 

NORM COLEMAN, Minnesota 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

LINCOLN D. CHAFEE, Rhode Island 

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah 

PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico 

JOHN W. WARNER, Virginia 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK DAYTON, Minnesota 

FRANK LAUTENBERG, New Jersey 

MARK PRYOR, Arkansas

MICHAEL D. BOPP, Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

JENNIFER A. HEMINGWAY, Professional Staff Member 

MICHAEL L. ALEXANDER, Minority Staff Director 

ADAM R. SEDGEWICK, Minority Professional Staff Member 

TRINA DRIESSNACK TYRER, Chief Clerk 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Collins ................................................................................................. 1

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 2

Senator Domenici ............................................................................................. 4

Senator Warner ................................................................................................ 9

WITNESSES 

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 28, 2006

Hon. Mitch McConnell, a U.S. Senator from the State of Kentucky ................... 5

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 25

Mickey D. Barnett to be a Governor of the U.S. Postal Service: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 8

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 30

Biographical and professional information ..................................................... 31

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 44

Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics ............................................... 58

Letters of support for Mr. Barnett .................................................................. 60

Katherine C. Tobin to be a Governor of the U.S. Postal Service 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 8

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 78

Biographical and professional information ..................................................... 82

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 89

Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics ............................................... 99

Ellen C. Williams to be a Governor of the U.S. Postal Service 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 10

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 101

Biographical and professional information ..................................................... 103

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 112

Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics ............................................... 129

(1)

NOMINATIONS OF MICKEY D. BARNETT, 

KATHERINE C. TOBIN, AND 

ELLEN C. WILLIAMS 

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 28, 2006

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:02 a.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Susan M. Collins, 

Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Collins, Domenici, Warner, and Carper. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN COLLINS 

Chairman COLLINS. The Committee will come to order. Good 

morning. Today the Committee will consider the nominations of 

Mickey Barnett, Katherine Tobin, and Ellen Williams to be Governors of the U.S. Postal Service. 

Members of this Committee are very familiar with the many serious challenges facing the Postal Service, and we have spent a great 

deal of time developing the postal reform legislation, which Senator 

Carper and I introduced, that has been passed by the Senate and 

is now in conference. 

The Board of Governors of the Postal Service is, in many ways, 

comparable to the board of directors of a corporation. The Board selects the CEO, in this case the Postmaster General, who then becomes the Board’s 10th member. The Board controls expenditures, 

conducts long-range planning, and sets policy. The most important 

duty of the Board is to represent the public interest. This duty will 

become even more important under the postal reform bill that will 

emerge from conference. 

A fundamental purpose of this legislation is to preserve universal 

service and affordable rates that are so essential to our economy 

and to our communities. As we replace the current lengthy and litigious rate-setting process with a cap-based structure that will 

bring stability and predictability, the Board of Governors will play 

a central role in safeguarding the interest of the public and the 

mailing industry as it guides the Postal Service to a better and 

more sound financial future. 

I look forward to discussing this important responsibility with 

our nominees today. Let me just briefly tell you a little about the 

nominees, as we have distinguished colleagues Senator Domenici 

2

and Senator McConnell here to introduce them formally. I will submit the remainder of my statement for the record. 

[The prepared statement of Chairman Collins follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN COLLINS 

Today, the Committee will consider the nominations of Mickey Barnett, Katherine 

Tobin, and Ellen Williams to be Governors of the U.S. Postal Service. Members of 

this Committee are very familiar with the many serious issues facing the Postal 

Service and have spent a great deal of time developing the postal reform legislation 

that has been passed by the Senate. 

The Board of Governors of the U.S. Postal Service is, in many ways, comparable 

to the board of directors of a corporation. The Board selects the CEO—in this case 

the Postmaster General—who then becomes the Board’s tenth member. The board 

controls expenditures, conducts long-range planning, and sets policy. The most important duty of the Board is to represent the public interest. 

This duty will become even more important under the postal reform bill that will 

emerge from conference. A fundamental purpose of the legislation is to preserve the 

universal service and affordable rates that are so essential to our economy and our 

communities. As we replace the current lengthy and litigious rate-setting process 

with a cap-based structure that will bring stability and predictability, the Board of 

Governors will play a central role in safeguarding the interest of the public and the 

mailing industry as it guides the Postal Service to a more sound financial future. 

I look forward to discussing this role with our nominees today. 

Mickey Barnett is Managing Partner of the Barnett law firm in Albuquerque, 

New Mexico. Earlier in his career, Mr. Barnett served as a legislative assistant for 

Senator Domenici, a Member of this Committee. He also served for one term as a 

State Senator in the New Mexico legislature. 

Katherine Tobin is a self-employed market research consultant. Previously, Ms. 

Tobin served as Senior Market Research Manager with Taylor Nelson Sofres, as 

Senior Director at Catalyst, and marketing manager at Hewlett Packard. Ms. Tobin 

also served as Assistant Dean for the School of Graduate and Professional Studies 

at Manhattanville College. In 1984, Ms. Tobin served as co-chair of the U.S. Senate 

Productivity Awards for Nevada, which recognizes organizations with exemplary 

quality and productivity improvement efforts. 

Ellen Williams has served as Vice Chairman of the Kentucky Public Service Commission and as Commissioner of the Governor’s Office for Local Development. She 

currently heads her own government relations firm. 

I thank our nominees for their interest in serving on the Board of Governors and 

welcome them to the Committee.

Senator COLLINS. Just briefly, Mickey Barnett is the managing 

partner of the Barnett law firm in Albuquerque, New Mexico. 

Katherine Tobin is a self-employed market research consultant. 

Ellen Williams has her own government relations firm. 

All three have extensive experience, which I am sure we are 

going to hear about from those who are here to introduce them 

today. 

I want to thank our nominees for their interest in serving on the 

Board of Governors. Senator Carper and I have spent a great deal 

of time during the past 3 years working on postal issues, and we 

understand just how critical the Postal Service is to the health of 

our economy. It is truly the linchpin of a $900 billion mailing industry that employs some 9 million Americans. So, the positions for 

which our nominees have been nominated are very important positions indeed. 

Senator Carper. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER 

Senator CARPER. Thank you, Madam Chairman. And thank you 

for moving us so quickly to consider these nominations. We welcome our colleagues, Senator McConnell and Senator Domenici, 

3

and we welcome our nominees, as well, and your families, who are 

here. I hope you will have a chance to introduce some of them to 

us today. 

I am pleased to be able to serve as the Ranking Member today 

as we consider who will take on several key leadership roles in the 

Postal Service during this time of transition. Again, we are grateful 

for your willingness to serve. I think you will love being called governor. As a recovering governor, I still like it when people call me 

governor, too. And for the rest of your lives, wherever you go, that 

will follow you. I think you will come to enjoy it. 

As we have discussed countless times in this Committee in the 

past, it is vitally important that the Postal Service begin to change 

to meet the needs of our 21st Century economy. The Postal Service 

is an entity created, as you may recall, in the early 1970s to serve 

a 1970s economy. And more than 30 years later, the products and 

services that postal employees provide each day have been met 

with competition not just from FedEx and UPS, but from innovations like the fax machine, the cell phone, email, and electronically 

paid bills. 

When I first arrived here in the U.S. Senate, almost 600 years 

ago—— [Laughter.] 

No, actually, almost 6 years ago, the Postal Service was facing 

a significant financial crisis. And if I remember correctly, Madam 

Chairman, they were about to hit their statutory debt limit, and 

some were questioning whether or not they would even be able to 

continue to offer the kind of service that the American people have 

come to expect from them. 

Under the leadership of Postmaster General Potter, the Postal 

Service has moved away from the brink. They have been successfully cutting costs, finding efficiencies, and, despite declines in first 

class mail volumes, preserving universal service. 

There is still a lot of work to be done, and that is why our Chairman and I and our staffs have been working now for several years 

to develop legislation that would give the Postal Service the tools 

that they need to survive in a world in which people just are not 

going to turn to the mail as much as they did in the past. 

I think we are closer to the finish line now than we have ever 

been before with postal reform. I sure hope so. And even if we get 

our bill signed into law tomorrow, not likely, we will still need 

some strong leadership and vision from the postal management, especially the Postal Board of Governors. 

So, in closing, Madam Chairman, I want to say just a quick word 

about the Democratic vacancies on the Board of Governors. As 

some in this room are aware, the Postal Board of Governor, like the 

Amtrak Board of Governors and other Federal bodies, is meant to 

be a bipartisan body. At least four seats on the current Postal 

Board of Governors are reserved for Democrats. Even if all three 

of these nominees before us today were confirmed tomorrow, there 

would still be two Democratic vacancies. And one of those seats has 

been vacant since December 2002. 

To me, that is unacceptable. And as I have made clear, this is 

a critical time for the Postal Service. And if postal reform is indeed 

enacted this year, the Board of Governors will soon be dealing with 

transition to an entirely new rate and regulatory regime. In addiVerDate 0ct 09 2002 14:40 Aug 02, 2007 Jkt 029508 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 C:\DOCS\29508.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT
4

tion, postal management will begin negotiations any day now with 

the four major postal unions’ expiring contracts. This is no time for 

the Board of Governors to be short-handed. 

I will close by saying, really, calling on the President to move 

swiftly in sending this Committee nominees to fill remaining vacancies on the Board of Governors. And when that happens, 

Madam Chairman, I pledge to work with you and Senator 

Lieberman and others to make sure that we consider these nominees properly and get our Board of Governors ready for the challenges that are ahead. 

Again, welcome, we are delighted you are here and look forward 

to hearing from our nominees and from our colleagues. Thank you. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you very much, Senator Carper. I 

have discussed your concern with the White House, and I am told 

that the White House has two potential Democratic nominees in 

the final stages of clearance, so I hope those will be sent up to us 

shortly. 

Senator CARPER. That is good to hear. Thank you. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. We are now going to start——

Senator CARPER. Now, maybe, I will not have to call on the 

President. 

Chairman COLLINS. I am sure that he would be delighted to hear 

from you. 

Senator CARPER. OK. 

Chairman COLLINS. I am very pleased to call on Senator Domenici, who is a Member of this Committee, for the introduction of Mr. 

Barnett. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR DOMENICI 

Senator DOMENICI. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman, 

and Senator Carper. It is great to be here this morning. 

I was wondering what I would say right up front about his qualifications, and I guess I was going to, and then I was not going to, 

and I am going to tell you that he and his wife were great babysitters. They took care of my eight children on a number of occasions as hired babysitters and——

Senator CARPER. I move that the nomination be approved. 

[Laughter.] 

Senator DOMENICI. I tell you if they could put up with that and 

survive, even the labor unions will have some tough sledding because they were terrific. 

In all seriousness, I have known him since he was a young man. 

He grew and matured and became a rather exciting figure in New 

Mexico. He did a lot of exciting activities in terms of lobbying. 

Truly, to my amazement from afar, because his achievements were 

very significant and powerful, and I have learned that Mickey 

Barnett is one of those persons that truly knows how to negotiate, 

how to work things so that results occur rather than stalemates 

persist. I think probably, without knowing it, you would like that 

kind of person on this board, without having chosen him for that 

purpose, you would probably like that kind of quality. 

I come here today knowing that you need not hear a lot from me, 

that it is sufficient, I would think, for you to know that I come here 

to tell you that I have known him for almost all of his adult life. 

5

1The prepared statement of Senator McConnell appears in the Appendix on page 25. 

I think he will be a good Postal Commissioner, based upon the 

qualities and activities that I have observed from—some from up 

close and some from afar. I have come to the conclusion that I 

should tell you that I think he will do a good job in this new and 

arduous job that you are seeking to confirm him for. 

I also want to say to the two of you, and the Committee that I 

am on with you, that the Post Office has been marvelous. It has 

withstood and stayed up there against unfathomable odds, and it 

would seem to me that the new structure that has been set up—

the sooner the better. We ought to get it on its way, give it a shot. 

It is again up against incredible odds, and if you do not do something new and constructive and powerful at the Board of Directors 

level and then put people like this man on to see if they can compete against the private sector, which has chosen to make this a 

real part of the competitiveness of the American society of today, 

we do not have a chance. 

So, I decided I should be here today, and I decided I should tell 

you to hurry up and get it done. I think it is a right thing. So, I 

thank you for having me come here and waste your time having 

to listen to me, but I am pleased to give you that time today and 

hope that you hurry up with his confirmation and those of the 

other wonderful nominees that the President has sent you. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you very much. 

Senator DOMENICI. Thank you very much. It is good to be with 

you, Mr. Leader, at the table. Thank you. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you, Senator Domenici. Your endorsement means a great deal, not only to the nominee, but also to this 

Committee, which has benefitted from your wisdom and participation. So, thank you for being here today. 

Senator McConnell, we are very pleased to welcome you to the 

Committee for the purpose of introducing one of the nominees. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. MITCH McCONNELL,1 A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF KENTUCKY 

Senator MCCONNELL. Thank you, Madam Chairman and Senator 

Carper. It is great to be here this morning on behalf of an old and 

dear friend of mine, who is an extraordinary Kentuckian. Ellen 

Williams has demonstrated great skill. She is smart, hard working, 

disciplined, honest, tireless, and loyal, just about everything you 

could want in an effective individual. 

She has been Vice Chairman of the Kentucky Public Service 

Commission, where she oversaw the regulation of rates for our public utilities there in the State. She has served the people of Kentucky fairly and took care to provide service for all at low rates. 

She balanced the interest of the public and various electric, natural 

gas, telephone, water, and sewage companies, all of which were 

regulated by the Kentucky Public Service Commission. 

She was also Commissioner of the Governor’s Office of Local Development, where she managed a statewide agency charged with 

providing State grants and loans to local governments, giving her 

perspective into how what government does affects the lives of people on the ground. She was able to adapt to the needs of different 

6

communities and worked to make sure that her agency’s efforts 

went toward helping as many people as possible. 

Ellen’s private sector work is relevant to her appointment, as 

well. She currently serves, as was said earlier, as president of her 

own government relations and public relations firm, demonstrating 

her ability to connect people to solve problems. And, in an earlier 

life, she was head of legislative affairs for the Lexington Bluegrass 

Association of Realtors. 

She has also been active in politics, where she was extraordinarily effective, as well. She has a Bachelor’s Degree from the 

University of Kentucky. She went to high school in my hometown 

of Louisville and makes her home today in Lawrenceburg. 

Public service runs in Ellen’s family. Her father, Lieutenant General John Conaway, is here today, and we are awfully proud of 

him. Her brother, Commander David Conaway, her son, Joey, I am 

sure he is proud of his mother, and Matt and Johnny Conaway, her 

nephews, are here as well. 

Madam Chairman, I would ask that all of my statement be put 

into the record. Let me just say in conclusion, the President simply 

could not have found a more outstanding nominee for this position 

than Ellen Williams. She is a truly extraordinary leader in our 

State, and I know she will do a superb job on this important Board, 

and I appreciate the opportunity to come here today and to second 

her nomination and to say nice things about her, which she richly, 

richly deserves. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you very much. We very much appreciate your taking the time to be with us this morning, and your endorsement of the candidate carries great weight with this Committee. Senator Carper. 

Senator CARPER. Madam Chairman, I have just learned that 

Senator Harry Reid of Nevada cannot be here. He hoped to be here 

to introduce Katherine Tobin, but he is not able to join us, and he 

just asked to extend his very best wishes to you. He is proud of you 

and delighted that you are willing to serve in this role. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. I want to excuse the two Senators at this point since I know that they have very busy schedules. 

Each nominee has filed responses to a biographical and financial 

questionnaire, answered pre-hearing questions submitted by the 

Committee, and had their financial statements reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics. 

Without objection, this information will be made part of the hearing record, with the exception of the financial data, which are on 

file and available for public inspection in the Committee offices. 

In addition, the formal statements of the two Senators will be included in the hearing record. 

Senator Warner, I was just about to swear in the witnesses. Do 

you have any comments? 

Senator WARNER. No. 

Chairman COLLINS. OK. 

Our Committee rules do require that all witnesses at nomination 

hearings give their testimony under oath. So I would ask that the 

nominees please stand and raise their right hands. 

7

Do you swear the testimony you are about to give the Committee 

will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 

help you, God? 

Mr. BARNETT. I do. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. I do. 

Ms. TOBIN. I do. 

Chairman COLLINS. Please be seated. 

Mr. Barnett, we are going to begin with you. It is my understanding that some of you have family members present. And if 

you do, I would invite you to introduce them at this point. 

Mr. BARNETT. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Unfortunately, my 

family was unable to travel from New Mexico, primarily because of 

the cost, being $1,300 for round-trip airfare. 

Chairman COLLINS. Wise decision. 

Mr. BARNETT. But I appreciate the courtesy of the Committee in 

having us today and look forward to answering questions. 

First, I would like to thank Senator Domenici for coming over, 

and it was interesting, when I was 21 years old and took care of 

his eight kids while he went to Russia with Nancy for 2 weeks. So, 

I learned a lot in those days when I worked on the Hill. 

Senator CARPER. Was that a long 2 weeks? [Laughter.] 

Mr. BARNETT. It was very long—you do not know what it is like 

to go to the grocery store and buy four gallons of milk, four or five 

loaves of bread, it is an interesting—and laundry and so forth. 

My wife, Janet, could not make it, and my son is in Dallas Theological Seminary and could not come up from Dallas. My daughter 

is a lawyer in Phoenix in the Institute for Justice, but I wish they 

could have all been here, it would have been nice, but they cannot. 

But thank you very much for your courtesies in having us. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Tobin, would you like to introduce any 

family members that you have with you? 

Ms. TOBIN. Yes, thank you, Chairman Collins. I would like to introduce my husband, Judge Evan Wallach of the U.S. Court of 

International Trade in New York City, my sister, Alice Tobin Zaff, 

my brother-in-law, Alan Zaff. And then, I am also lucky to have 

with me key friends who have been like family over the years. I 

want to thank them all for their support, encouragement, and interest in this nomination over the last 9 months. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. 

Ms. Williams, do you have family members, as well? I know that 

you do. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. I do for sure. I have two of my really good friends, 

as well, that are like family, Vicki Dixon and Dawn Riley. And my 

family members, I have my nephew, Johnny Conaway, who is going 

to be a senior in high school in Jacksonville, Florida. My nephew, 

Matt Conaway, who is from Ohio and interning this summer for 

Congressman Jim Gibbons. My youngest son, Joey, incoming eighth 

grader at Anderson County High School. My oldest son, Sam, could 

not be with me today because he is at soccer camp. I am a soccer 

mom. 

My brother, former Commander in the Navy and F–18 pilot, 

David Conaway. He flew combat in the Gulf War, and he is now 

a pilot with Delta Airlines. 

8

1The prepared statement of Mr. Barnett appears in the Appendix on page 30. 

2The prepared statement of Ms. Tobin appears in the Appendix on page 78. 

And then, the hero of my life, my father, Lieutenant General, 

John B. Conaway, Retired, former Chief of the National Guard Bureau from 1990–1994. He was Chief during Desert Shield and 

Desert Storm. And, truly, through his example I know what public 

service really means. 

Senator WARNER. Your father is well known to us. He did have, 

and continues to have, a very distinguished career. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to introduce him and thank each of you for being here. And I appreciate 

Senator McConnell for taking the time to come over and introduce 

me to you. Thanks. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. We will now proceed with statements. Mr. Barnett. 

TESTIMONY OF MICKEY D. BARNETT1 TO BE A GOVERNOR OF 

THE U.S. POSTAL SERVICE 

Mr. BARNETT. Madam Chairman, Members of the Committee. I 

have submitted a written statement and would stand for questions. 

I do not have anything else to add at this time. 

Chairman COLLINS. OK. Ms. Tobin. 

TESTIMONY OF KATHERINE C. TOBIN 2 TO BE A GOVERNOR OF 

THE U.S. POSTAL SERVICE 

Ms. TOBIN. Thank you, Chairman Collins, Senator Warner, Senator Carper, and the Committee staff here today. Thank you for 

holding this hearing. As you said, Senator Carper, it is time to expand the Board to bring on new faces, energy, and ideas to the 

leadership team. Let me also thank Senator Harry Reid for submitting my name to the White House as a candidate for governor. 

Senator Reid, as we all know, is a public servant of the highest 

order whom I admire and support and whom I intend to make 

proud should I serve as governor of the U.S. Postal Service. 

I am pleased to appear before this Committee today for your consideration as a governor. As you know, I have worked for more 

than 25 years in two other sectors, the business sector and the academic/nonprofit sector. I intend to draw from this experience, and 

let me briefly review. 

I have worked as a manager, a researcher, and a consultant 

within corporate America at institutions such as Hewlett-Packard 

Corporation and IBM. Additionally, while at Catalyst, a nonprofit 

dedicated to advancing women to leadership positions in business, 

I contributed by designing and conducting research studies on 

issues of diversity and gender equity. This research was done on 

behalf of the oil and gas industry, the food service industry, high 

technology industries, and diversified manufacturing companies. 

Thus, I bring 18 years of experience with the business world to 

the work of governor. In those years, I have learned many lessons 

on how to and, in a few cases, how not to manage people, systems, 

products, and services within a large, complex corporate structure. 

The halcyon days of my career were my years at Hewlett-Packard Corporation during the heady time when Silicon Valley was 

9

leading the Nation forward with the creation and then deployment 

of wonderful new technologies, specifically the personal computer 

and then networked servers. 

HP was front-and-center and one of the best companies in the 

world for which to work. It had a reputation for innovation, quality, 

and commitment to local communities and the Nation. I watched 

with an eye to learn how Bill Hewlett, David Packard, John Young, 

whom I am sure you know, too, from his service, and Lew Platt 

guided the company through periods of growth and times of tough 

economic challenge. They built and maintained a strong valuesbased culture, one that emphasized hiring the right people, motivating them, and then building cross-functional and inter-divisional 

teams. 

Senator WARNER. Madam Chairman, if I can interrupt. 

Chairman COLLINS. Sure. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR WARNER 

Senator WARNER. Those words resonate with me. I went to the 

Pentagon in 1969 as Under Secretary of the Navy, and Dave Packard was there. And he had a profound influence on my life, and his 

legacy still is in the halls of the Pentagon, working to make government contracting and procurement more efficient. 

I tell you, to have you come in and say that, it means a great 

deal to me. 

Ms. TOBIN. Thank you. 

Senator WARNER. And this nominee has my vote. 

Ms. TOBIN. He was someone, not only here, but down in the 

trenches when we had tough times——

Senator WARNER. Oh, yes. 

Ms. TOBIN. He was inspiring. 

Senator WARNER. And his wife, Lu. 

Ms. TOBIN. Yes. 

Senator WARNER. I knew them well. Thank you. Excuse me for 

the interruption. 

Ms. TOBIN. Thank you. 

Senator WARNER. We hardly ever do that, but I could not resist 

that. 

Ms. TOBIN. They built and maintained, as I said, a strong, values-based culture, one that emphasized hiring the right people, motivating the team, and then creating inter-divisional, international 

teams. 

In terms of what they delivered to the marketplace, HP was 

known for its commitment to customer satisfaction and incorporating customer requirements into its new products. This experience is all directly relevant to the role I would play as a governor. 

Organizations are never done with the job of focusing on their customers, products, and services. 

To be continuously competitive, and Senator Carper, you spoke 

about this in reference to postal reform, to be competitive requires 

systematic observation, inquiry, listening, and then translating 

what is learned into the new products or the current products and 

services. 

Additionally, I earned a Ph.D. in Administration and Policy Analysis from Stanford University School of Education. This involved 

10

1The prepared statement of Ms.Williams appears in the Appendix on page 101. 

course work in policy-making and analysis of various policy enactments. As doctoral students, we were required to study policy-making from different disciplinary perspectives, that of economics, political science, sociology, and anthropology. 

Extensive quantitative analysis was also a hallmark of our program. I took five courses in statistics, an extremely valuable course 

on how to conduct cost/benefit analyses, and a course in the School 

of Engineering on financial and cost accounting. Given the size and 

the scope of the U.S. Postal Service, I am sure that this knowledge 

base will serve me well as a governor. 

Separate from professional qualifications, I am a lifelong and appreciative customer of the U.S. Postal Service. Let me share a personal anecdote that conveys the very powerful nature of this service. 

My father, Lieutenant Commander Richard Tobin, died when I 

was just 14 years of age. My most treasured reflections of him are 

not the pictures, but the postcards and letters that he sent. He was 

part of the Seventh Fleet with overseas duty—anti-submarine warfare missions, Senator, I know that is part of your history. My 

mother, my sister, and I lived stateside in Virginia and in Brunswick, Maine. And we had him away for months at a time, but it 

was through the U.S. Postal Service that his voice was delivered 

to our home. His letters were his way of connecting us not just to 

him, but to the world. 

So, why is this relevant? I actually think every one of us has a 

special story or two about the Postal Service, whether it be awaiting college admissions letters as teenagers, receiving love letters, 

a long-awaited job offer, annual birthday greetings, even, in your 

cases, your steady connections to your constituents. In all of these 

cases, important communications have occurred. 

We have all grown accustomed to this in having our very own 6-

day-a-week connection to our world, its people, and organizations, 

but now, this is the rub, our population is continually moving, 

changing, and growing. Continuing this important and historic universal service, doing it well in a financially efficient, responsible 

way, in a way which serves both the American people and the 

hardworking and talented people who are the Postal Service employees—that is the challenge that we face. 

So, I would be honored to work on this challenge, together with 

the other governors, the postmaster, and through the efforts of 

hundreds of thousands of postal employees. 

Thank you, and I welcome your questions. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you very much for your eloquent 

statement. Ms. Williams. 

TESTIMONY OF ELLEN C. WILLIAMS1 TO BE A GOVERNOR OF 

THE U.S. POSTAL SERVICE 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Collins, Senator 

Carper, and Senator Warner. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you at the prospect of becoming a governor on the U.S. 

Postal Board. I am grateful for the opportunity to be here. And I 

would like to thank the President for his confidence in me by virtue 

11

of this nomination. It is a tremendous honor, and I am really humbled by his faith in my ability to be a contributing member to the 

U.S. Postal Board of Governors. 

I would like to thank the staff of the U.S. Homeland Security 

and Governmental Affairs Committee for their diligence in asking 

questions to insure that all the relevant information necessary to 

consider my nomination is disclosed. They have been terrific to 

work with, and they do a very thorough job. I thank each of them. 

I have been involved in government and politics for over 25 

years. During that time, I have had the privilege of working in the 

U.S. House of Representatives, the U.S. Senate, the White House, 

and in State government, the Commonwealth of Kentucky, as well, 

and I have also actively participated in politics in Kentucky and 

nationally. 

I believe I bring a unique set of skills and experience to the 

Board of Governors. I have business, government, and management 

experience. I know the importance of public service. And, as a 

small town resident, I understand and appreciate the valuable role 

of the U.S. Postal Service. It is oftentimes the one thing that people 

can count on each day in their lives. It is their connection with 

family, with friends, and with opportunities. 

I understand the importance of a safe, secure Post Office and 

well-trained employees. They are the front line in this wonderful 

agency, and I believe that it is important that their input is listened to, considered, and counted on. I will be a willing listener to 

management and labor on all issues and pledge not to make hasty 

decisions until I understand all the facts. 

During my tenure as Vice Chairman of the Kentucky Public 

Service Commission, I developed an understanding and knowledge 

of what it means to provide universal service to the public through 

fair and affordable rates. I am keenly aware of the differing positions that the stakeholders will have and am confident in my ability to listen and work with each group to make the right decision 

to benefit the public and the Post Office. 

Through my involvement in government, I understand the importance of communicating with this body and pledge to you that I will 

work hard to learn the positions of all stakeholders and fairly work 

with each group to insure that the U.S. Postal Service continues to 

be the most universally used, most trusted, and most respected 

service available. 

I thank you for the chance to be here today. I thank you for your 

consideration of my nomination, and I humbly ask for your support, and I will answer any questions that you may have. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. 

I am going to begin the questioning today with the three standard questions that we ask for the record of all nominees. 

First, is there anything that you are aware of in your background 

which might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to which you have been nominated? 

Mr. Barnett. 

Mr. BARNETT. None. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Tobin. 

Ms. TOBIN. No. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Williams. 

12

Ms. WILLIAMS. No. 

Chairman COLLINS. Second, do you know of anything personal or 

otherwise that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of this office? 

Mr. BARNETT. None. 

Ms. TOBIN. No. I do not. 

Chairman COLLINS. If you can say for the record, Ms. Williams? 

Ms. WILLIAMS. No. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. And third, do you agree, without 

reservation, to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and 

testify before any duly constituted Committee of Congress if you 

are confirmed? 

Mr. Barnett. 

Mr. BARNETT. Yes. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Tobin. 

Ms. TOBIN. Yes. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Williams. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. You have passed the hardest 

part. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Great. 

Chairman COLLINS. We are now going to begin a round of questions limited to 6 minutes each, but we will do two rounds, I would 

say to my colleague. 

One of the longstanding issues facing the Postal Service is to 

strengthen the relationship between labor and management. We 

have worked very closely on this Committee in drafting the postal 

reform legislation with the Postmaster’s Association, with the Postal Supervisors Group, and with the four postal unions. I will tell 

you that you have terrific leaders to work with across all of those 

organizations. 

As you know, the success of any large organization, any organization, large or small, depends upon its employees. What are your 

thoughts on what the Postal Board of Governors could do to further 

strengthen and encourage greater cooperation between the postal 

management and the employees of the Postal Service? 

Mr. Barnett. 

Mr. BARNETT. Madam Chairman, Members of the Committee, I 

think it is important in all endeavors to have transparency—if you 

have read the studies that have been done in the last few years—

all recommend transparency. It comes up over and over again that 

the stakeholders believe that their interests are being represented 

in the decisionmaking process. 

And so one of the most important things that I think you could 

do as a Postal Governor is to make sure all the stakeholders know 

that we are accessible, we will listen to their concerns, we will consider them, and to the extent that we are involved in management—and we are not managers, that is the Postmaster General 

and below—we will listen to all of their concerns and try to make 

it work for everybody. 

Universal service is critical. I live in a rural State. The mail has 

got to be delivered out on the Navajo Reservation and places that 

are very inaccessible, and if there is a labor or management problem, it has to get solved because the people that will be hurt are 

13

the recipients of the mail. And it is our job to work with all the 

parties to make sure they believe we will listen to their concerns. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Tobin. 

Ms. TOBIN. I would agree with what Mr. Barnett has said. The 

visibility, the accountability, the listening—I mentioned earlier in 

my remarks about the importance of continuously listening. I am 

not yet aware of how the Board of Governors does that, but I was 

pleased to have an opportunity and hope to have more opportunities to talk with the union people to learn what they are wrestling 

with. 

I know that the Postal Service has various measures and metrics 

that they have in place, some of which relate to service, and I am 

not certain the degree to which labor hears about those measures 

and where we listen on the Board, on the management side, to understand that we have the right measures. So, I think the listening, the accountability piece, is also important. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Williams. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Senator Collins and Senator Carper. 

I, too, agree, as the last person to speak, that the transparency 

in all of our operations as the Board of Directors for the U.S. Postal 

Service is important. And as I have stated throughout my questions and in my testimony, I want to seek out the various stakeholders and sit and listen and learn. And I would like, upon confirmation, should I have that honor, to begin seeking knowledge 

and input from all of the various folks, particularly union, to understand the concerns, some of the history, and to try to work to 

open lines of communication so that we can make good decisions 

for the benefit of all the Americans who have the benefit of the 

Postal Service, but also for the 700 plus thousand workers that the 

Postal Service employs. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Williams, the current relationship between the Board of Governors and this Committee, which is the 

Committee of jurisdiction, is not a strong one. What would you do 

to foster better cooperation and communication between the Board 

and Congressional Committees with direct oversight of the Postal 

Service? 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Thank you for that question, Chairman Collins. 

As a former staffer on the House side and the Senate side, I have 

a great appreciation for the work that is done by you all and by 

the staff along the back row, there. And, as you work to develop 

new laws and as you listen to things that may or may not need to 

be changed, I think that it is critically important that the Board 

of Governors work with you all and that we have a good exchange 

back and forth and open lines of communication, formally and informally. 

As we go through this process, the Postal Service is facing sort 

of a crossroads, if you will; your postal reform legislation is nearing 

completion in the passage stage, I know you hope very much, and 

we would be key in working with you all to implement that legislation. So, I would like to spend as much time as necessary and as 

possible to work with the staff and to better enhance the relationships that the two entities have. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Tobin, you mentioned, or rather, Mr. 

Barnett mentioned that he supported the principle of universal 

14

service. I want to get both you and Ms. Williams on record on that 

issue, as well. 

What are your thoughts on the necessity of universal service? 

Ms. TOBIN. I think the U.S. Postal Service has its beginnings in 

universal service. That is where I feel an obligation as a governorto-be to carry out that mission. It is something that unites the Nation, as I said earlier. It should be, I mentioned, a values-based organization. I would hope it would be in the reform legislation and 

in the ongoing running of the Postal Service. It’s bedrock. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Williams. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. I believe universal service is the basis for which 

the 1970 Postal Service legislation was enacted, to insure that 

Americans in this country and overseas can communicate with 

each other and, as Ms. Tobin eloquently put, tie us all together or 

bind us together. And so I think it is really the fundamental sort 

of mission that we have as we move forward. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. Senator Carper. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you, Madam Chairman. I want to start 

out, if I could, with Mr. Barnett. You chose, as you are certainly 

welcome to do, to forego making a statement. I appreciated the opportunity to visit with you earlier this month. 

And I just want to ask if you might do as our other two witnesses 

have done as they have sought to connect their previous life’s work, 

their previous life’s experience, to their role in serving as governors 

on this Board. I would just ask you to take a minute or so to do 

that, as well. 

Mr. BARNETT. Thank you, Madam Chairman, Senator Carper. 

I think that in our careers we have to learn—and my careers 

have involved working on the Hill and the New Mexico State Senate and being a lawyer for 30 years, or in my 30th year, and all 

of those activities involve, at their core, being able to get something 

done. You cannot be an effective legislator if you cannot work with 

both sides of the aisle to get some legislation through and signed 

by the governor. You cannot be an effective lawyer if you cannot 

negotiate settlements or, when that fails, then be an effective advocate before a judge to win your case. 

All of those attributes are exactly what are needed on a Board 

of Directors. I do not know the particulars of the Postal Service. I 

do not think anyone would that has not been involved in it, but it 

has to be the same kind of stakeholder disputes that you have in 

every aspect of a legislative fight or a legal fight, and that is one 

side wants this, the other side does not necessarily disagree that 

would not be necessary, but they do not have the money. And that 

is the case here. 

We have a situation where we have an entity that is—it is variously described as in a death spiral, economically, or various different things, but we know what it is. There are more people to deliver to every year and fewer people buying first class stamps. 

Somehow we have to use the talents you cultivate and learn over 

a lifetime in getting the stakeholders to understand that they cannot all have their way. There has to be a way to solve it where everybody benefits. There is a point by which price cannot increase 

beyond a certain point, or there will lead to an even further drop 

off in usage. We know that. That is basic economics. 

15

But the stakeholders have to also understand that if they kill the 

goose that lay the golden egg, if they kill the Postal Service, they 

cannot get their products delivered, at least for an economically 

viable model. 

So, I think that the talents that you learn in trying to get 

along—I was in the rather small minority in our legislature because we were in the minority, and yet I think I passed every bill 

I ever introduced. Some got vetoed, but I was able to get them all 

through, and I think that is because you learn to work with everybody, and you have to listen, and you have to understand what 

they are doing. 

The same way in the legal career. You cannot afford to litigate 

every case. You must settle them. And better than 95 percent of 

all cases are settled, and that is a talent that you learn through 

mediation techniques. 

Senator CARPER. OK. Thanks very much. 

I think Senator Collins mentioned earlier in her comments, she 

talked about how the size of the Postal Service is enormous, and 

if it were a private company, it would be maybe among the largest 

companies in the world. 

I have tended to view the Board of Governors as a little bit like 

a board of directors, a corporate board. And I would just ask each 

of you, maybe starting with you, Ms. Williams, to just talk with us 

a little bit about your approach to serving on the Board of Governors, if confirmed. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Thank you. I appreciate the question, Senator 

Carper. 

I believe that the Board of Governors, as one of the largest 

boards of a major corporation, needs to have people with differing 

perspectives sit at the table. I think it is well and good to say that 

everybody should be CEOs of a company, but we serve people that 

live in small towns, that live in rural States, that come from all 

walks of life. And to have the various perspectives of small business, of government, of running associations, I think provides the 

opportunity to look at things through a different perspective, if you 

will. 

Not everybody in my little State of Kentucky pays their bills online because we do not all have Internet access. Not everybody 

takes advantage nor will they ever take advantage of the technology that people in the more urban areas do. So, I think that my 

personal background will lend itself well to providing a different 

perspective at times as we look at different kinds of reform and we 

think about if the passport is a good thing to do at the Postal Service or if it is a bad thing to do. 

Having just chaperoned a high school soccer team to Europe, we 

got our passports through the Anderson County, Lawrenceburg, 

Kentucky, Post Office. We got our pictures there and our passports. 

Without that service in our small town, I would not have had the 

opportunity to take those kids overseas. 

So, I think we all bring different strengths to the table. 

Senator CARPER. Rather than ask the other witnesses to respond 

to that question, I want to ask you, you mentioned one of the services that they provide at this particular Post Office, and we find 

that there is a couple schools of thought about the kinds of services 

16

the Postal Service should be providing. Should they be in the electronic communications business? Should they be involved in selling 

stationary, providing different kinds of services that are now offered by a number of private companies? 

I would just ask you, Ms. Tobin, if you want to kick it off. 

Ms. TOBIN. Sure. 

Senator CARPER. Just some preliminary thoughts about those 

questions because they are going to be questions that you will have 

a chance to continue to address. 

Ms. TOBIN. I consider this a fun question because we have described the size and the scope of this service and needing to get the 

mission done, and yet we also need to not get too distracted by all 

of the things that could be connected to the mail. So, how do you 

do that? 

With some of the Committee staff, I spent some time talking on 

that. One example—I am going to give an example and then I am 

going to draw somewhat of a line, if I may. I think it was Mr. 

Kilvington from your staff who was saying would you want to have 

Postal Service wrapping centers and could you combine that with 

the mail and would that not be good during the holiday time? And 

what I am thinking of is, clearly, you would have a process to look 

at this as a new product. You would begin to see if you are going 

to develop new products, as Mr. Barnett said, you only have so 

much money. You have to make some tradeoffs. 

Maybe what you have is some innovative way of saying, ‘‘right 

next to the Postal Service is the wrapping store, or the like.’’ So, 

there were some interesting partnerships going on very much like 

what you see in corporate America, separate and yet connected, 

due to the nature of their business. 

So, I would, I guess, also go back to say priorities are important 

to set, and innovation is a piece of that priority. So, there has got 

to be some innovation. 

Senator CARPER. All right. My time is expired, and I would yield 

back to the Chairman, but I will come and pick up this line of 

questioning with the other witnesses. 

Ms. TOBIN. OK. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you. 

Chairman COLLINS. Actually, I am going to do it for you. 

Senator CARPER. OK. 

Chairman COLLINS. This is an issue that is of great concern to 

me, as well. It is a difficult balance, what issues and what products 

the Postal Service should be providing. On the one hand, you do 

not want unfair competition——

Ms. TOBIN. Right. 

Chairman COLLINS [continuing]. With small businesses in the 

community that may have the ability to provide the exact same 

service. On the other hand, Ms. Williams’ example of the passports 

being available in a way that they would not otherwise be in a 

rural community gives you the other side of that argument. The 

Postal Service has been criticized for some of its forays into providing products that are already available in the private sector, 

such as greeting cards and wrapping supplies. Mr. Barnett, how do 

we strike the right balance? How does the Board of Governors 

17

make the right decision on whether or not to enter a field or provide a product that is not directly related to the delivery of mail? 

Mr. BARNETT. Well, balancing is important, but first I think you 

would decide, is it readily available? In other words, we have all 

had the same thing in our State. We had the same thing with the 

University bookstore selling all kinds of things and the local bookstores complaining. It is something that happens in all aspects of 

government services. 

The issue is the wrapping services might be readily available in 

a town or a large community, but if it is a remote Post Office, those 

wrapping and packaging services would not be available. So, some 

of it might not be universal. In other words, sometimes you might 

choose to have some Post Offices have some products available and 

yet not every Post Office. 

The passport example is a core function of this government. It 

may well become our form of identification as we go forward having 

to have more ability to show forms of identification. So this, to me, 

would be easier to say that the maximum number of locations that 

you could have passport facilities, you should do so. 

But you are absolutely right. The more you compete with local 

businesses, the more you can run those businesses out of the ability to operate. And, in a small town, that is also death. I mean, you 

need a vibrant, viable, local community. 

So, I think it is a balancing test, and you have to look at it. I 

think the Postal Service would have to err on the side of doing its 

core task, which is deliver the mail. And when it expands, it should 

be after thought, after hearing from the stakeholders, and particularly hearing from other businesses that would be affected as to 

how it would affect them. And, in some cases, how partnerships, 

as Ms. Tobin described, could be operated because that is another 

option that might work, where you could contract with them or 

work with them to do that kind of task. 

Chairman COLLINS. The Postal Service, I would note, has also 

lost money in several of the ventures that it has undertaken in this 

area. So, I think this is an area where the Board of Governors 

needs to proceed very cautiously, looking at the impact on small 

businesses. Not only current ones, but future ones, as well as what 

it does to the basic mission of the Postal Service. 

Another controversial issue that will undoubtedly come before 

you has to do with closings of Post Offices. As those of you who represent or are from more rural areas are well aware, the Post Office 

can sometimes be the town center, the one place that people gather, not only to get their mail, but to exchange information. It has 

a role in smaller rural communities well beyond just being the 

source of mail delivery, sorting, and handling. On the other hand, 

it is expensive for the Postal Service to maintain such an extensive 

infrastructure. 

I am not going to ask you what the right balance should be, but 

whether or not you think there should be more transparency in the 

process, so that the Postal Service communicates with all the 

stakeholders when it is considering the closure of a post office. 

Ms. Williams. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Chairman Collins. 

18

I think, without a doubt, transparency, without jeopardizing any 

security issues, should be at the forefront of how we make our decisions. And you are not asking us, and I am not prepared, at this 

time to talk about closings of Post Offices in rural or urban areas, 

but I think that it is something that, as we sit down and understand in greater detail, should we be confirmed—the budget of the 

U.S. Post Office, the very services, the distance between a Post Office that may be proposed to be closed, if there is such a list that 

exists, versus one that may be open and functioning. 

I think there are many factors, input from the community, the 

workers, what does that do to the folks and the jobs. I just think 

that we have to be judicious as we make those decisions and, 

again, cannot make anything just for the bottom dollar. I think 

that is important, do not get me wrong, but I also understand the 

necessity of the Post Office and the service to folks across this 

country. 

Chairman COLLINS. Ms. Tobin, do you think that the Postal 

Service should develop specific standards and publish those standards to guide its decisionmaking and to give the public the opportunity to comment on the standards that would be used? 

Ms. TOBIN. I would say that would be wise. I think it is wise to 

make it clear to people what the process is and, well ahead of time, 

so that people can become aware. I have seen that done. I referenced it, Hewlett-Packard, when there was a change in the pension system. And it was not going to serve many of the younger 

people well, but when it was explained well, people understood 

what had to be done. 

Again, this is similar to what you were saying. You have to get 

clear. So, the sooner one can present the standards and let people 

know, then they start to see how action is occurring, and it is just 

more comprehensible. 

Chairman COLLINS. I would note that the legislation that Senator Carper and I have introduced not only endorses universal 

service and affordable rates—these are our goals—but also convenient community access to retail postal services. I think that is really important that we insure that no matter where you live, whether 

it is a very rural, remote area, or whether it is in a big city, that 

you do have that convenient access. There are many ways to provide that, but that is certainly one of our goals. 

Senator Carper. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you. 

I am going to ask each of you just to briefly, maybe, talk with 

us about your vision for the Postal Service in the future. 

Ms. Williams, you have a son here, a couple of your nephews 

here. What, 50 years from now, 30, or 20 years, what kind of Postal 

Service do you envision for them? And I will ask the same question 

of Ms. Tobin and Mr. Barnett. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. I think technology will have factored in at a 

greater level. I cannot envision exactly how. But I do believe that 

through computers and all of these young people back here—I 

mean, it is second nature to them to get on the computer. But to 

be able to have the services that the Post Office supplies right now 

through the actual Post Office buildings, to have access to a comVerDate 0ct 09 2002 14:40 Aug 02, 2007 Jkt 029508 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 C:\DOCS\29508.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT
19

puter, I think, is going to be a huge—technology will change it immensely. 

But I still think that nothing takes the place of a card or a postcard. And so I would still hope that the basic premise for the sake 

of just, I do not know, longevity and connection with families and 

friends and relatives across the world still exists. I think it will become a more universal, global, if you will, Post Office. And I appreciate the opportunity to be part of it as we stand at a crossroads 

with your legislation. 

Senator CARPER. All right. Thank you. 

Ms. Tobin, give us some thoughts of your vision. 

Ms. TOBIN. I am going to build on what Ms. Williams has just 

stated here. 

I actually was trained as an anthropologist, and I think as time 

goes forward, we think we change——

Senator CARPER. We do not have any of those on the Postal 

Board. [Laughter.] 

Ms. TOBIN. No. I know. 

Senator CARPER. We have been looking for one. 

Ms. TOBIN. But there is a lot of data there. 

Anyway, I think that people think change is changing everything, but ultimately the value, even in urban settings, is one of 

having a place that people come to, that of having tools for mailing 

purposes that are at their fingertips through technology. Even tools 

that speed up the things that we have all hated, the lines, those 

wonderful mailing kiosks help address. 

My vision is that we find the things that are frustrating and reduce some of that. And I do not believe, Senator, that we are going 

to ever not want to get those special things from people in the mail, 

at our door, on Saturday. Surprise. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you. Mr. Barnett. 

Mr. BARNETT. Madam Chairman, Senator Carper. 

We do not know what will happen in 50 years. A vision is a very 

difficult thing with it changing. But 2 weeks ago in New Mexico, 

it is no longer permissible to mail a pleading to the bankruptcy 

court. Later this year, it will no longer be permissible to mail to 

the Federal District Court. That is a massive change for someone 

that is in the legal profession. 

But the Post Office may have a role, and this is not something 

that is thought through, but there may be a role in how you verify 

who sent it, verification, because this is a quasi-governmental 

agency, and its methods by which it might verify how these documents are sent, whether they are correct, to insure that someone 

else cannot send them in, those kinds of things, that is a role that 

the Postal Service might well play in the future. It may not. 

It is daunting to sit here as somebody who is brand new at this 

and try to envision something in 50 years. I am 55, and I know 

that no one 50 years ago could have believed that we would have 

cell phones and we would have personal computers. So, I do not 

know, but I know that it is the only governmental entity that is 

really involved in every American’s life. Social Security benefits, 

Veterans’ benefits, everything flows to people through the U.S. 

Postal Service, and I hope that never changes. 

20

You have to have at least a core part of government for the ability of the citizens of the government to communicate with their 

government. And the Postal Service should be in the forefront of 

doing that, whether it is by mail or whether it is by some other 

means. 

Senator CARPER. All right. Thank you. 

One of the issues that we have wrestled with going forward is 

how to provide some certainty to mailers, in terms of the costs that 

they will incur, and whether they happen to be individuals, families, or if they happen to be businesses, large or small. And Senator 

Collins and I have worked with our colleagues to try to figure out 

how to provide some certainty and, at the same time, how to provide some flexibility to the Postal Service to price their products 

and not have to go through an extensive, lengthy process to determine what those prices might be. 

What we have come up with, in the Senate, at least, is an approach whereby we say—well, just say, for example, that all of the 

folks out in this audience are different products that the Postal 

Service handles, we will say products A through Z. And our approach says that the price for those products can go up by the rate 

of inflation. Product A may go up more than the rate of inflation. 

Product B may go up, like, two times the rate of inflation, and so 

forth. But, overall, the increase can be no more than the rate of inflation. 

We provide some exceptions. If there is an emergency, if we see 

an oil embargo and we have the price of oil go up by a dollar. There 

are anthrax attacks, that kind of thing. There are ways to get 

around it, but we would like to see some kind of stability. 

The House has a somewhat different approach, but this one we 

need to figure out between now and the time we send the bill to 

the President. 

Just your thoughts on price, stability, and the flip side of that 

is flexibility for the Postal Service in pricing their products in the 

21st Century. 

And Mr. Barnett, you are welcome to go first, if you like. 

Mr. BARNETT. Madam Chairman, Senator Carper. 

It is the Congress’ position and obligation to set our standards, 

and we will operate in whichever—whether the House version 

passes or the Senate, or something in between. So, we would implement it, I am certain all of us would agree, in the manner in which 

you tell us to implement it. 

I do not know the answer. The real problem is, of course, how 

actuarially you can compute the flexibility versus the cost. I know 

that I was given a figure last week when I was talking with the 

staff about when the price of gasoline goes up a cent a gallon how 

vast an amount of money that is to the Postal Service. And so that 

has to be factored in, and it sounds like the Senate bill, for sure, 

has that. 

I do not feel competent to sit here today and tell you what the 

policy should be, but I am competent today to tell you whatever 

policy you guys arrive at and the President signs, we will implement to the best of our ability. 

Senator CARPER. All right. Thank you. Ms. Tobin. 

21

Ms. TOBIN. I think the Senate writing of that makes sense to me. 

The need to have some kind of control, yet giving the Board of Governors and the Postal Service the flexibility to handle the unknowns. That is what you would have to have if you had a business. That business Board of Directors would have to be making 

the same kind of choice, and we cannot go too far and not go out 

of business, and I think that is what you are also trying to do by 

that cap. 

So, it makes sense to me what the Senate has proposed, and I 

have not seen the House legislation. 

Senator CARPER. Thank you. Ms. Williams. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Thank you. 

I appreciate what you all put in the legislation. If it is passed 

then obviously, and should we be confirmed, we would work diligently to make sure that it was implemented. Not knowing all of 

the details that go into the rate-making and pricing of all the various market driven and competitive products, I would like to reserve comment until I understand the process more. 

Senator CARPER. Fair enough. Thank you. 

I think my time is expired, Madam Chairman. Thank you. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. 

Mr. Barnett, my final series of questions today are for you. As 

you know, your nomination has not been without some opposition, 

although you have certainly garnered very strong support, as well. 

The Committee has received a couple of letters, which we will be 

putting into the hearing record, that allege that while you were a 

Republican National Committeeman for New Mexico, you used that 

office to benefit your firm’s clients. I want to give you the opportunity to respond on the record. We have discussed this privately, 

but I think it is important given the letters the Committee has received that you respond at this hearing. 

Mr. BARNETT. Thank you, Madam Chairman, Members of the 

Committee. 

First, being on the Republican National Committee was an 

honor, but it had no power of any kind or any concern. It may be 

different on the Democrat side, I do not know. But being on the 

Committee is, well, particularly while you hold the White House, 

an honorary position. There was never a single vote, never a single 

anything that was not unanimous. We did what we were told. Ms. 

Williams may disagree, but I think we served together. 

So, the charge, while easy to make, is inaccurate. There is not 

any method by which you have anything on the National Committee to do anything. You meet twice a year and you occasionally 

vote. I think we had, probably, four votes, primarily to pick the 

chairman, and that was it. So, the charge is incorrect. There was 

not anything done. 

I have five lobbying clients, which is a small part of my life. I 

enjoy it because I like politics, but my law practice is where I work 

everyday. The Republican National Committee meets in Washington. It is a national position. I have no national clients. Anything I have is all at the New Mexico level. So, there was no connection between being a Republican National Committeeman and 

having clients or having anybody benefit in any manner. 

22

Chairman COLLINS. And finally, if confirmed, how would reconcile your professional responsibilities to your clients and your responsibilities as a Governor of the Postal Service. Do you see any 

potential for a conflict of interest? Do you have any clients that 

have matters pending before the Board of Governors? 

Mr. BARNETT. No. I have no clients even remotely connected with 

the U.S. Postal Service, and all of us have gone through a rather 

extensive set of questions and involvement. And, quite to my surprise, I had stocks in three companies that I have sold since I started this—Intel—and other companies that I have no idea what their 

connection is with the Postal Service. 

But, having read the very serious nature of the obligations that 

we undertake here, and the legalities, anything I ever do is going 

to go to the Office of Ethics or the—I think one of them is in the 

room today. There will be nothing that will ever come up that I will 

not cover first if it ever comes up. I do not honestly think that, in 

Albuquerque, New Mexico, there is any company or business or 

anything else that has any connection with the Postal Service. But 

should I even perceive there is I would immediately contact the 

Ethics Office and get clearance on it before I did anything. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. 

Senator Carper, do you have any further questions? 

Senator CARPER. Maybe one or two. 

When I was governor, I served on the Board of Amtrak, appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. And Tommy 

Thompson was my successor, actually, my predecessor and my successor. One of our major roles on the Amtrak Board of Directors 

was to figure out who was going to be the President of Amtrak, to 

figure out who were going to be the senior managers and to get the 

right mix of talent to lead the organization. 

I welcome your thoughts, with respect to going about that, approaching that task and that responsibility as we think about succession and making sure the right people are in the right spot. 

Ms. Tobin, if you would like to lead off, you are welcome to. 

Ms. TOBIN. Sure. Succession planning is something that I like to 

think of certainly for that top position, but going down deeper, particularly as it relates to diversity of people for the top leadership 

jobs. 

One of my perspectives would be, be it Amtrak or the Postal 

Service, having as far down as one can, clear value placed on diversity and on competence. So, I guess I would say that I was pleased 

to hear that internally the Postal Service chose the current Postmaster General. And down the line I think it is important to have 

internal and external—very clear specifications and internal-external candidates being considered. 

So, I think the succession planning process is one that needs to 

go deeper than the top levels, though. 

Senator CARPER. All right. Thank you. Mr. Barnett. 

Mr. BARNETT. Madam Chairman, Senator Carper. 

Probably the most critical decision that we directly make as a 

Board of Governors would be that, and I do not know when it may 

occur, whether it is a year or two, or 10 years from now, we have 

not gotten into that. I have not gone down to the Postal Service or 

talked to anybody. 

23

But it is the most important thing we could do, and I would 

agree with everything that Ms. Tobin said. Our goal would be to 

find some one we think can work with labor and management and 

reach consensus rather than constant turmoil and fighting. And 

second, would have the economics background or be able to absorb 

advice from economists on how actuarially to handle the future financial difficulties that the Postal Service would have. 

Senator CARPER. Ms. Williams. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Senator Carper and Chairman Collins. 

In 2010, it is my understanding that there is going to be a large 

number of retirements that occur across the Postal Service. And so 

I understand there has been some succession planning that has 

gone on and that may be in place, and I think a review of that, 

as often as need be, whether it is yearly or twice a year, to really 

understand what the needs are, where the retirements are occurring to make sure that in the top management we have candidates 

that people feel comfortable pursuing candidacies of some of the top 

positions. 

I understand General Potter does a tremendous job and has been 

a great leader of the Postal Service. So, I think as a Board of Governors for this agency it behooves us to really get involved in succession planning down below just upper management, as Ms. Tobin 

said, and work to make sure that we have talented, professional 

people in the pipeline willing to step up and lead this agency. 

Senator CARPER. There is really kind of a delicate balance there. 

I think, to the extent that a Board finds the right people at the top 

and empowers them to go out and put their team together and then 

holds them responsible, there is a lot to be said for that. 

As you approach that responsibility, and I think it is one of the 

greatest responsibilities that you will face in these roles if you are 

confirmed, and I expect that you will be, you may want to just be 

always mindful of looking for people who are consistently interested in figuring out the right thing to do and trying to do it. You 

may want to find leaders who believe in the Golden Rule, who actually practice the Golden Rule, to treat other people the way they 

want to be treated. 

It might be helpful to have senior management who are committed to excellence in everything that they and their team do. And 

I have always found it helpful to have folks around who just do not 

want to give up. I like to say, no means find another way. People 

who really persist and if they think that they are right, they will 

stick with it. 

And I have always liked to look for managers or leaders who consistently surround themselves with the very best people they can 

find. And when things go well, they give their team the credit. And 

when things do not go well, the leader takes the blame. And I hope 

you will always look for leaders at the Postal Service who have 

those traits and have those qualities. 

And if you do, if you can find them and keep them, the Postal 

Service will be in good hands for a long time, including when these 

guys are old enough to sit up here and chair this Committee and 

help lead our country. 

24

Thank you for being with us today and for your willingness to 

serve our nation. 

Ms. WILLIAMS. Thank you. 

Ms. TOBIN. Thank you very much. 

Mr. BARNETT. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you, Senator Carper, for your continued excellence in pursuing postal issues. I very much appreciate 

your acting as the Ranking Member for this hearing today. 

Senator CARPER. It is my pleasure. It is an honor to sit with you. 

Chairman COLLINS. Thank you. 

I want to thank our nominees for appearing this morning and for 

their forthright answers to our questions. There may be a few additional questions for the hearing record. Without objection, the 

record will be kept open until noon tomorrow for the submission of 

any written questions or statements for the record. 

In closing, let me just emphasize that the comprehensive postal 

reform legislation that Senator Carper and I have authored and 

are determined to see signed into law this year will be the most 

sweeping overhaul of the Postal Service in more than 30 years. Its 

successful implementation is going to depend in no small measure 

on the work of the Board of Governors. 

We look forward to working very closely with you, should you be 

confirmed, and I am optimistic that will occur, as you carry out 

those responsibilities. I would add that the bill also vests more responsibilities in the Board of Governors, so that is an important 

feature of the bill, as well. 

This is really important work that you have committed to undertake, and we look forward to working closely with you. 

This hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:16 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.] 

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