1 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

MOTION CONFERENCE 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

FEB 1 8 2014 

HEARING DOC ET 

FEDERAL AVIATION 

ADMINISTRATION, 

Complainant, 

v. FDMS No. 

FAA-2013-

0045 

WORLDWIDE AIRCRAFT SERVICES, 

INC., 

Respondent. 

Friday, 

January 31, 2014 

Via Teleconference 

The motion conference came on for 

hearing, pursuant to notice, at 10:30 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN, 

Administrative Law Judge 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

WILLIAM P. VINES, ESQ. 

Office of the Regional Counsel 

Southern Region 

Federal Aviation Administration 

P.O. Box 20636 

Atlanta, GA 30320 

(404) 305-5200 

( 4 0 4 ) 3 0 5-5 2 2 3 (Fax) 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

MICHAEL A. HONEYCUTT 

President 

of: Worldwide Aircraft Services, Inc. 

Co/ JET I.C.U. 

2561 Rescue Way 

Brooksville, FL 34604 

(352) 796-2540 

(352) 792-2549 (Fax) 

NEAL R. GROSS 

2 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
3 

1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 10:33 a.m. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: We're on the 

4 record in the Matter of worldwide Services, 

5 Inc. This is Docket No. FAA-2013-0075. 

6 Today is Friday, January 31, 2014, 

7 and the parties have convened for a motion 

8 conference prior to the March 2014 hearing. 

9 The FAA is represented by its 

10 attorney of record, Mr. William P. Vines. He 

11 is appearing by telephone. 

12 The Respondent is represented by 

13 its President, Mr. Michael A. Honeycutt. He 

14 is also appearing by telephone. 

15 Sitting as an observer with Mr. 

16 Honeycutt and participating as an observer in 

17 these proceedings is his assistant, Sarah 

18 Guenther. 

19 Also present at the Office of 

20 Hearings, seated as observers only, are Mr. 

21 Cody L. Smith, an attorney advisor at this 

22 office, and Mr. Andy Orr, a law student intern 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
4 

1 with this office. 

2 Good morning, everyone. 

3 I'll note that, essentially, the 

4 last time we convened was on January 8th, 

5 2014. The parties appeared by telephone for 

6 a scheduled prehearing conference. And during 

7 that time, the parties discussed a variety of 

8 different issues. And as a result, this 

9 conference was scheduled and some new 

10 deadlines were given to the parties to address 

11 ongoing litigation concerns. 

12 A January 9, 2 014 Order set a 

13 Motion Conference and additional litigation 

14 deadlines was then filed. As a result, on 

15 January lOth, 2014, the FAA filed its Motion 

16 in Limine. On January 16, 2014, the 

17 Respondent filed the Respondent's Motion to 

18 Compel. On January 22nd, 2014, the FAA filed 

19 its Response to the Respondent's Motion to 

20 Compel. On January 28th, 2014, the Respondent 

21 filed its Response to the FAA's Motion in 

22 Limine. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
5 

1 I'll note that, after those 

2 responses were filed, there was some email 

3 correspondence with the parties by the Office 

4 of Hearings staff. And I'll simply note that 

5 that email correspondence appears to have been 

6 limited to the Motion to Compel and the 

7 Response to the Motion to Compel, and I'll 

8 identify those a little more specifically when 

9 we turn to that particular motion for 

10 argument. 

11 Let's start, then, with the Motion 

12 in Limine that was filed by the FAA. Before 

13 I ask questions or take argument, I want to 

14 ask a few preliminary questions of both 

15 parties, starting with the FAA. 

16 Mr. Vines, you have indicated that 

17 you had received from the Respondent a variety 

18 of different answers to FAA Request for 

19 Discovery, which included requests for 

20 admissions and other discovery. You did not 

21 provide a copy of the actual discovery 

22 responses. So, I do not know who signed the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWIN.nealrgross.com 
6 

1 Respondent's Discovery Request, the date it 

2 was signed, or the date that you received it. 

3 Can you supplement the record orally for me 

4 now? 

5 MR. VINES: With regard to the 

6 responses I received --

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I'm sorry, 

8 sir, I can't hear you. You sound as if you 

9 are away from the phone. Can you speak up, 

10 please? 

11 MR. VINES: Yes. So, again, you 

12 would like the date in which the Respondent 

13 replied to the Agency's Discovery Request? 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I need to know 

15 who responded on behalf of the Respondent, the 

16 identity of the person who actually submitted 

17 the response. I need to know the date that 

18 the responses were signed, and I need to know 

19 when you received the responses. 

20 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. I 

21 received, if I recall correctly, two sets of 

22 responses. The Respondent replied, but was 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
7 

1 not complete in their responses. In other 

2 words, the Respondent did not answer all the 

3 questions, and the Requests for Admissions and 

4 Request for Productions that I sent. 

5 So, I do have in front of me 

6 Respondent's Response to Complainant's Request 

7 for Admissions, signed by Mr. Honeycutt, and 

8 it was emailed to me on September 6th of 2013. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: All right. Is 

10 that the response package that you received 

11 that you're quoting from in your Motion in 

12 Limine? 

13 MR. VINES: Just one minute, 

14 Judge. 

15 (Pause.) 

16 Yes, Judge, in my Motion in 

17 Limine, paragraph (2) , there were two sets of 

18 responses, and the first set was received or, 

19 rather, submitted by the Respondent on 

20 September 6th of 2013. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So, let me 

22 make sure I've gotten all the information from 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
8 

1 you. You have filed a Motion ln Limine 

2 asserting that on June 27, 2013, you 

3 propounded your first set of discovery 

4 requests, and then, on September 6th, 2013 and 

5 again on December 4, 2013, the Respondent 

6 provided responses. 

7 So, all of the responses that you 

8 are identifying in your January 10, 2014 are 

9 from the responses you received from Mr. 

10 Honeycutt on December 6th, 2013? 

11 MR. VINES: On September 6th, 2013 

12 and December 4th of 2013. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Let me try 

14 and do this again. Can you tell me which of 

15 the responses you got when, and were they all 

16 signed by Mr. Honeycutt? And if so, what 

17 dates were they signed before you received 

18 them? 

19 MR. VINES: Again, I received 

20 responses that were signed, again, September 

21 6, 2013. All the responses that were received 

22 that were dated -- that I received that were 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
9 

1 dated on that date were, in fact, signed by 

2 Mr. Honeycutt. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So, the 

4 date of signature for having replied is also 

5 the date of receipt? 

6 MR. VINES: Again, he emailed 

7 those to me and, also, sent those by mail. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So, Mr. 

9 Vines, I'm sorry that I'm not making myself 

10 more clear. I just need to know when they 

11 were signed by the Respondent and when you 

12 received them. And oftentimes, those are two 

13 different dates. 

14 But, from what I'm hearing from 

15 you, you're telling me that Mr. Honeycutt was 

16 the sole person who responded to all FAA 

17 Requests for Discovery and that he signed them 

18 on September 6th, 2013 and December 4, 2013 

19 and served them on you the same day? 

20 MR. VINES: No, Judge. Again, 

21 what I'm trying to say is I have two sets of 

22 discovery requests, two sets of responses that 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
10 

1 were submitted by Worldwide Aircraft. The 

2 first set I received by email on September 

3 6th, 2013. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I 'm going to 

5 stop you. I'll stop you right now. 

6 So, when you received those email 

7 responses on September 6th, 2013, were the 

8 responses signed and dated as September 6th, 

9 2013 by Mr. Honeycutt? 

10 MR. VINES: That's correct. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And then, 

12 when you received additional discovery answers 

13 from the Respondent on December 4, 2013, were 

14 those responses also signed and dated that 

15 same day, December 4, 2013? 

16 MR. VINES: Judge, let me look at 

17 those. 

18 (Pause.) 

19 Judge, to answer your question, 

20 the responses were sent by email to me on 

21 December 4th, the second set of responses from 

22 Worldwide Aircraft were sent to me on December 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
11 

1 4th, 2013, from an individual by the name of 

2 Lisa Aleski. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And can you spell 

4 the first and last name for me, please? 

5 MR. VINES: Yes. L-I-S-A is the 

6 spelling of the first name. The last name is 

7 spelled A-L-E-S-K-I. 

8 And those were sent to me, and 

9 those responses, all the responses were dated 

10 December 4th and signed by Michael Honeycutt. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. So, 

12 Mr. Honeycutt again was the responding party 

13 for the responses you received that were dated 

14 December 14, 2013? 

15 (Pause.) 

16 Mr. Vines? 

17 MR. VINES: Yes. Yes, ma'am. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Could you 

19 answer that question, please? 

20 MR. VINES: I'm sorry, I thought 

21 that was directed to Mr. Honeycutt. Will you 

22 please repeat the question? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
12 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I will tell 

2 Mr. Honeycutt and you when I change my focus. 

3 I'm trying to make sure that I know who the 

4 responding party was for the Respondent's 

5 responses that were sent to you on December 4, 

6 2013. And from I can hear from you, you're 

7 telling us that Mr. Honeycutt signed and dated 

8 those on behalf of the Respondent? 

9 MR. VINES: That's correct, Judge. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you 

11 so much. 

12 Yes, in the future, just so that 

13 you know, you want to be sure and send me 

14 copies of the relevant discovery that you're 

15 using, so that I have a complete record of 

16 when they were returned to you, in part, 

17 because I have to look at whether or not 

18 you're within the timeframe for complying with 

19 discovery and with motions for problems that 

20 arise because of any alleged deficiencies in 

21 discovery. 

22 I also have to know who the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
13 

1 responding party was in terms of the discovery 

2 to determine whether or not they had the 

3 authority to make those responses and bind the 

4 company or business or individual to those 

5 answers. 

6 I mean, there's things that I have 

7 to check that you may not be arguing. So, I 

8 appreciate you looking at that. 

9 And now, I'm going to go to Mr. 

10 Honeycutt. 

11 Mr. Honeycutt, I want to chat with 

12 you very briefly about some of the answers 

13 that are contained in the FAA's Motion in 

14 Limine. And I'm going to turn specifically to 

15 page 2 of the Motion. 

16 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you have that 

18 with you? 

19 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. At the top 

21 of page 2, there are paragraphs identified as 

22 paragraph (a) as in apple, (b) as in ball, and 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
14 

1 (c) as in cat. Do you see those? 

2 MR. HONEYCUTT: I do, Your Honor. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. It's my 

4 understanding from talking just now to Mr. 

5 Vines that you were the person responding to 

6 all of the discovery requests that the FAA 

7 sent to your business. Is that correct? 

8 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, Your Honor, 

9 that is correct. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And 

11 according to the FAA, on page 2 of its Motion 

12 in Limine, at the top of the page under the 

13 paragraph entitled (a) as in apple, they asked 

14 you, quote, "Do you dispute Brandon Plas' June 

15 8, 2009 statement to Robert Donahue?" End 

16 quote. And that's only a partial quote. 

17 MR. HONEYCUTI : Yes, ma'am. Go 

18 ahead. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: There was also a 

20 statement following that saying, quote, ''If 

21 so, please provide the specific facts which 

22 you dispute and why (This statement was 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
15 

1 provided to you on or about June 22nd, 2011, 

2 as part of the release of portions of the 

3 Enforcement Investigative Report)." End 

4 quote. 

5 Do you see all of that? 

6 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am, I do, 

7 Your Honor. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. According 

9 to Mr. Vines, the response he received from 

10 you was, quote, "None." End quote. 

11 MR. HONEYCUTT: Again, Your Honor, 

12 Mr. Vines, I sent him Answers to 

13 Interrogatories, Answers to Produce, and 

14 Answers for what's the other one? 

15 Interrogatories and Request to Produce. 

16 Anyway, I sent Mr. Vines those answers, and he 

17 sent back, wanted more detailed information. 

18 So, our responses are, when I sent 

19 back on December that we were talking about 

20 earlier on that timeline, in my Amended 

21 Answers to the Interrogatories. So, again, 

22 you asked Mr. Vines, and I'm a little confused 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
16 

1 which sets of Answers that I sent him is 

2 referenced in limine. Is it the first set of 

3 discovery that I gave him in September, I 

4 believe it was, we said, or the second set of 

5 Answers, the Amended Answers to 

6 Interrogatories and discovery produced? 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So, let's 

8 talk about that just a little bit. So, what 

9 did you mean, essentially, when the response 

10 was "none"? Was it -- can you just tell me 

11 again what that meant for you? 

12 MR. HONEYCUTT : Your Honor, I 

13 think I'm trying to find my file here. I've 

14 got it, but I'm looking to find what we 

15 actually admit to -- so, I'm not sure about 

16 ''none 11 • "Admit Allegation 1. Admits 

17 Allegation 2. Denies" this is ln 

18 response 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I'm going 

20 to ask you to think quietly to yourself, if 

21 you're looking through some papers. 

22 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
17 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. And what I 

2 would like you to do is look at the Motion in 

3 Limine, page 2, top of the page. 

4 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And it's my 

6 understanding from what you've said so far 

7 that this was part of a larger discovery 

8 response. Can you --

9 MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, there's two 

10 sets of Answers, Your Honor. I've said the 

11 first set was answered, and this answer of the 

12 response of ''none'' may have been in the first 

13 one, of my Response to the Interrogatories, or 

14 it could have been ln the second set of 

15 Interrogatories. And that's what I was asking 

16 Mr. Vines to clarify, which the response 

17 11 none 11 , was it from the first set or the 

18 second set? 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, it's 

20 not for you to have a dialog with Mr. Vines 

21 right now. 

22 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Ww.N.nealrgross.com 
18 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If I want to hear 

2 from him, I'll let him know. 

3 I'm just asking you to tell me 

4 what you recall, if you recall anything. And 

5 it sounds to me like you're saying that you 

6 were asked about this more than once. 

7 MR. HONEYCUTT: I was, Your Honor. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Let's go to 

9 paragraph (b) as in boy on page 2 of the FAA's 

10 Motion in Limine. And I won't read this 

11 particular paragraph since you have it before 

12 you. Can you explain if your response, quote, 

13 "none," end quote, is similar to your response 

14 to the one in paragraph (a) , or was there a 

15 different rationale that you were giving for 

16 this answer? 

17 MR. HONEYCUTT: Where I'm at 

18 currently on those two, (a) and (b), is I do 

19 not dispute the statement of Eric Price and 

20 Brandon Plas. I do not dispute their written 

21 statements to Inspector Donahue. I agree that 

22 those are their statements. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
19 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well --

2 MR. HONEYCUTT: And I don't 

3 dispute their statements. I don't dispute 

4 their statements, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: But when you say 

6 you don't dispute their statements, I guess my 

7 question to you is, does this mean that you 

8 don't dispute that they gave those particular 

9 statements or are you saying that you don't 

10 dispute the truth of what those statements 

11 contain? 

12 MR. HONEYCUTT : I don't dispute 

13 them giving the statements and I don't dispute 

14 that what they said is the truth. My dispute 

15 is the assumption and allegation that is 

16 concluded from their statements that Mr. Vines 

17 has written in the Complaint. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And that being 

19 what, in your opinion? 

20 MR. HONEYCUTT: I would have to go 

21 back and re-read the Complaint, to the point 

22 that, again, what I'm saying is I don't 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WIJIIW. nealrgross.com 
20 

1 dispute Brandon Plas and Eric Price's 

2 statement. I believe they made a truthful 

3 statement. I don't agree with Mr. Vines' 

4 conclusion that we validated the FAR based on 

5 partly those two statements. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

7 MR. HONEYCUTT: So, there's more 

8 to the allegations and to the Complaint. To 

9 draw the conclusion from just those two 

10 statements, I don't agree with that. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. That's 

12 very helpful. 

13 Now let's go to paragraph (c) as 

14 ln cat, which, again, is on page 2 of the 

15 FAA's Motion in Limine. There was a Request 

16 for Production of three years of financial 

17 statements or tax records. And your response 

18 was, quote, "Not applicable." End quote. 

19 Why, in your opinion, is this not 

20 applicable? 

21 MR. HONEYCUTT: I'm not trying to 

22 claim that I would be unable to pay the fine 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
21 

1 of the $12,375 penalty. Therefore, I would 

2 not have to produce tax returns, show that I 

3 was unable to pay that. I could pay the fine. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I just 

5 want to make sure that you understand that 

6 part of your affirmative defenses on the 

7 proposed civil penalty include the opportunity 

8 to raise financial limitation. And so, if you 

9 don't want to raise those affirmative 

10 defenses, you don't have to for mitigating 

11 circumstances, but, then, I wouldn't be able 

12 to take into consideration arguments that you 

13 make in your case-in-chief or at the end of 

14 the case that you couldn't afford to pay. I 

15 couldn't find those to be very persuasive if 

16 you don't provide financial documentation. It 

17 sounds to me like you know that, but I just 

18 wanted to make sure. 

19 MR. HONEYCUTT: I understand that 

20 -- I understand. I could make the payment, 

21 Your Honor, yes. 

22 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You don 1 t want to 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
22 

1 raise a financial inability or problems as 

2 part of your defense in this case? That's 

3 what I'm hearing from you. 

4 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, I 'm not going 

5 to make that part of the defense, an aspect. 

6 I would like to request that if I am found in 

7 violation and the penalty is upheld, and that 

8 amount is the amount that we're going to go 

9 after, that I would possibly have the option 

10 to negotiate a payment plan. But do I need to 

11 produce those documents now? I would have to 

12 make that decision now, if I want to --

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, a payment 

14 plan is different from having the ability to 

15 pay. 

16 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And typically, I 

18 do not get involved in structuring payment 

19 plans as part of my decisionmaking process. 

20 Usually, I leave that to the parties. 

21 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am, and 

22 that's the question I guess I'm asking, is if 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 INVIIW .nealrg ross.com 
23 

1 we can -- I could pay the fine if I had to at 

2 the end of the day. I would like, if not 

3 found guilty, not to-- well, I mean, if found 

4 guilty, though, to have an option to work with 

5 them on paying it. But I have to, if it 

6 requires producing three years of statements 

7 and everything right now, to delay, I would go 

8 with I would be able to pay the fine. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I 

10 understand. 

11 Mr. Vines, let me chat with you 

12 about installment payments. Typically, I do 

13 not get involved in ordering payment plans, 

14 for various reasons. Do you still do that if 

15 you go to a hearing and a civil penalty is 

16 awarded? Do you still engage in payment plan 

17 discussions with the opposing party? 

18 MR. VINES: Judge, I don't have 

19 the answer for that. Normally, in settlement 

20 discussions we do if asked by the parties to 

21 enter an installment or a payment plan, we do 

22 discuss that. But I'm not familiar with our 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
24 

1 process where we go to a hearing and a judge 

2 finds in favor of the Agency and orders a 

3 particular civil penalty. I'm not sure what 

4 the Agency does at that point. I'll be happy 

5 to look into that and provide an answer to 

6 both you and Mr. Honeycutt. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I can tell 

8 you that, according to the regulations, you 

9 still have the authority to engage in 

10 structuring a payment plan, even after 

11 hearing, as I read the regulation. 

12 MR. VINES: Okay, Judge. And for 

13 your information, this is the first time I've 

14 gotten this far in a DOT civil penalty 

15 proceeding. So, I am, too, on a learning 

16 curve in this particular jurisdiction. So, I 

17 will definitely research that and provide an 

18 answer to you and the attorney. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. That would 

20 be helpful because, if your Agency takes the 

21 position that you would rather have me do it, 

22 I'm happy to do it. But, typically, as I read 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
25 

1 the regulation and some of the case law, 

2 because this issue has come up before me 

3 before, the Agency prefers to keep that option 

4 for itself, even after a decision by a judge 

5 is issued. 

6 So, if you don't prefer that and 

7 you would like me to take that on as part of 

8 the case decision, I'm happy to do it. But I 

9 would prefer to tip to my hat to you, if you 

10 would like to retain that ability. And the 

11 regulations don't prevent you from doing it. 

12 MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You're welcome. 

14 Okay. Then, my original questions 

15 are addressed. 

16 Mr. Vines, we can do the Motion in 

17 Limine portion for you in two different ways. 

18 I can just give you about five minutes to do 

19 an overview, if you would like, and then, 

20 reserve my questions to the end of that or I 

21 can ask you my questions first, and then, let 

22 you sum up after. Which is your preference? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
26 

1 MR. VINES: I guess we can do the 

2 latter, Judge. I think the motion is just 

3 straightforward as to the basically, if I 

4 recall correctly, Judge, you asked that I 

5 submit this to the Court in light of the 

6 nature of the litigation, that being a pro se 

7 Respondent. 

8 And again, these are just facts 

9 that I've asked to be, I guess, in lack of a 

10 better term, just stipulating to, and that was 

11 the purpose of filing this motion, Judge. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, 

13 let's talk about a couple of them. 

14 You had requested that the request 

15 for admission Nos. 1, 2, 4, and-- let me see 

16 -- 4 and 5 be deemed admitted as true. And I 

17 would simply note that those have already been 

18 addressed by the January 9, 2014 Court Order. 

19 So, those requests for admissions have already 

20 been deemed admitted by a party agreement and 

21 confirmed by the Court. So, that portion of 

22 the motion to me is moot. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrg ross .com 
27 

1 MR. VINES: Okay. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: The next section, 

3 you're talking about requests for admission 

4 Nos. 12, 15, 16, and 17. And those are 

5 contained on pages 2, 3, and 4 of the Motion 

6 in Limine. 

7 As I read the Respondent's 

8 responsive materials, again, those are non9 disputed and it's non-disputed, and I '11 check 

10 with Mr. Honeycutt before I make a final 

11 ruling. Then, those, again, would be 

12 confirmed by the Court. 

13 I think the concern, based on the 

14 material that I have received, is your 

15 assertion that, even with those admissions, 

16 that the paragraph No. 10 in the FAA's 

17 Complaint is, therefore, proved. And I want 

18 you to take a look at paragraph 10 of the 

19 Complaint with me, if you would be so kind. 

20 And I want to ask you if you can 

21 explain to me how paragraph 10 would be 

22 conclusivelyproven with those few admissions. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Ww-N.nealrgross.com 
28 

1 And the reason I ask that is because those 

2 admissions basically say that there was a 

3 failure to disconnect the ground power unit, 

4 which we can all refer to as the "GPU" today, 

5 before the flight crew took off for a flight 

6 on May 3rd, 2009. 

7 The admissions also say that, on 

8 May 20th, 2009, which was 17 days later, there 

9 was maintenance performed on the same aircraft 

10 where the GPU receptacle was replaced. But I 

11 don't see ln these four new admissions the 

12 assertion that there's a proof of actual 

13 damage on May 3rd, 2009, and that that was the 

14 damage that was deferred for maintenance for 

15 17 days. And I'm wondering if I'm missing 

16 something. 

17 MR. VINES: The damage referred to 

18 on May 3rd --to make sure, you're saying 

19 there was damage reported on May 20th, but 

20 you're not making the connection to the issue 

21 of May 3rd, the deferral? 

22 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Correct. I'm 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
29 

1 thinking that your Mot ion in Limine -- and I 'm 

2 looking at page 3, which has paragraphs 

3 identified as (e) as in egg, (f) as in Frank, 

4 referring to, respectively, the request for 

5 admissions 12 and 15. So, I have an admission 

6 saying there was a takeoff without 

7 disconnecting the GPU on May 3rd, 2009, and 

8 then, 17 days later, on May 20, 2009, a GPU 

9 receptacle was replaced. 

10 And then, I look at paragraph 10 

11 of your Complaint, because part of your Motion 

12 in Limine says that these admissions prove 

13 paragraph 10. There was a detection of 

14 damage, and then, the Respondent deferred 

15 repair of the damage to a later date. 

16 And I'm not quite sure that I 

17 agree with you that the material that you have 

18 submitted conclusively proves paragraph 10 ln 

19 your Complaint, because you're asking me to 

20 prohibit the Respondent from challenging 

21 evidence about paragraph 10. And before I do 

22 that, I have to understand your thinking and 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
30 

1 agreement with it. 

2 MR. VINES: Judge, again, I'm 

3 looking through my Motion in Limine, and I'm 

4 not seeing the reference to the paragraph in 

5 the Complaint. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. You have, 

7 on page 4 of your Motion in Limine, under 

8 paragraph V, which is Roman numeral V, a 

9 statement saying that the Respondent's 

10 admission to the request for admissions 12, 

11 15, 16, and 17 are relevant and support the 

12 allegations contained in paragraphs 3 and 10 

13 of the Complaint. 

14 And then, you ask for relief under 

15 paragraph 6 on page 4 of your Motion in 

16 Limine. And part of that relief is to 

17 prohibit the Respondent from presenting 

18 evidence on those matters. 

19 And so, I'm a little concerned 

20 because I am not sure that you've made the 

21 case. And if you have and I've missed it, I 

22 want to give you an opportunity now to explain 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WINW.nealrgross.com 
31 

1 that to me. 

2 Do you see your request on page 4 

3 of the Motion in Limine? 

4 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Am I missing 

6 something in terms of the analysis of those 

7 factual pieces of information to the 

8 allegation of paragraph 10 in your Complaint? 

9 MR. VINES: Judge, the reference 

10 to paragraph 12 is tied in with a statement 

11 made by, I believe, the mechanic who wrote a 

12 statement regarding damage to the aircraft 

13 related to the GPU. And I guess what I'm 

14 trying to say, and I didn't articulate it very 

15 clearly, is that paragraph -- Administrator's 

16 request for admission No. 12 and response 

17 thereto is tied in with a statement made by 

18 the mechanic and I believe the pilot of this 

19 aircraft regarding the damage. And those are 

20 intertwined. 

21 Specifically, that on page 3, the 

22 paragraph (4) (b), where I talk about the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
32 

1 flight crew operating the aircraft in which 

2 they taxied and took off without first 

3 disconnecting the ground power unit, when you 

4 combine that with the statement --

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I'm going to 

6 stop you. You're still talking about the 

7 Complaint? Or are you referring back to the 

8 Motion in Limine? 

9 MR. VINES: I'm sorry, the Motion 

10 ln Limine on page 3. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you. 

12 MR. VINES: We're looking at 

13 paragraph (4) (e) regarding request for 

14 admission No. 12, is what I'm focusing on. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

16 MR. VINES: So, that, combined 

17 with a statement made by, I believe, the pilot 

18 and mechanic, which Mr. Honeycutt and we have 

19 discussed earlier, and he does not dispute the 

20 veracity or the truth of the matter contained 

21 in those statements, those statements combined 

22 with paragraph, request for admission No. 12, 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
33 

1 goes to show that there was damage and that it 

2 was deferred. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, let 1 s go to 

4 those statements then. So, I have before me 

5 Government Exhibit No. 1, which was apparently 

6 submitted by a Brandon Plas, P as in Paul, L 

7 as in llama, A as in apple, S as in Sam. And 

8 it's two pages long. He was identified as the 

9 pilot in command or the PIC. 

10 So, show me in this statement 

11 where he is asserting that there was damage 

12 that he saw before he took off from his first 

13 station. I think it was Brooksville. 

14 (Pause.) 

15 MR. VINES: If you look at the 

16 first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth 

17 paragraph, he states, "The PIC turned off the 

18 GPU and ran inside to turn off the power and 

19 burner, but forgot to disconnect the GPU from 

20 the aircraft." 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I saw that. And 

22 how does that translate into damage to the GPU 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
34 

1 unit on the aircraft? 

2 MR. VINES: That is what the 

3 Agency is arguing caused the damage to the 

4 GPU. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, but I don't 

6 have an affirmative statement, at least that 

7 I can see in this particular report by Mr. 

8 Plas that he identifies this as damage to the 

9 GPU on the aircraft, either before he took off 

10 or after he landed. And that's my concern, is 

11 that I cannot make assumptions as to what 

12 damage means or what it meant to him, or 

13 whether or not he perceived that as damage and 

14 just didn't mean to-- just forgot to say it. 

15 MR. VINES: Okay. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So, is it your 

17 argument that I should simply presume that, 

18 because he forgot to disconnect the GPU from 

19 the aircraft, that it was damaged at that 

20 point? 

21 MR. VINES: That's the argument 

22 we'll be making, Judge, yes. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
35 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Is there 

2 anything on the letter that was submitted as 

3 Government Exhibit No. 2, authored by an Eric 

4 Price, spelled P as in Paul, R as in Robert, 

5 I as in igloo, C as in cat, E as in egg, that 

6 would add to your argument regarding your 

7 request for a limitation of the Respondent's 

s case at trial? 

9 MR. VINES: I believe -- let me 

10 reference the document, Judge. 

11 (Pause.) 

12 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge, it would 

13 be the third paragraph. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And what in the 

15 third paragraph, in your opinion, is relevant? 

16 MR. VINES: It states that Mr. 

17 Plas was approached by line crew personnel in 

18 Marsh Harbor about the problem connecting the 

19 GPU. He was unable to connect the GPU --

20 discussed with me that we might have taxied 

21 the airplane with the GPU connected because 

22 the GPU receptacle pin was bent. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
36 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And is it 

2 your assertion that, because there was a 

3 report that the GPU receptacle pin was bent, 

4 that that equates to damage? 

5 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Vines, 

6 can you please try to make an effort to speak 

7 up or come off speaker off? I'm not sure 

8 what's going on. 

9 MR. VINES: Yes. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I' 11 note that 

11 the court reporter just interrupted and 

12 addressed a comment to Mr. Vines. 

13 Mr. Court Reporter, in the future 

14 please address it to me and I'll take care of 

15 it. 

16 THE COURT REPORTER: Sure. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. 

18 Mr. Vines, you are fading in and 

19 out. So, if you're on a speaker phone, I need 

20 to have you either be right next to your 

21 speaker phone or, if it doesn't help, we'll 

22 tell you and we '11 have you pick up the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
37 

1 speaker handset. 

2 MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You're welcome. 

4 Okay. Okay. Thank you. 

5 Anything else that you would like 

6 the Court to consider in your Motion in 

7 Limine? 

8 MR. VINES: No, Judge. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 

10 Honeycutt, let me turn to you. You've heard 

11 the argument by Mr. Vines. What is your 

12 response to that? 

13 MR. HONEYCUTT: Exactly, Your 

14 Honor, that I don't see a conclusion drawn 

15 between Mr. Plas' statement nor Mr. Price's 

16 statement, reference them possibly taxiing out 

17 with the GPU plug still connected from its 

18 original departure point and drawing a 

19 conclusion that the aircraft was damaged. 

20 And, in particular, where he 

21 references in the Complaint No. 10, "After the 

22 taxiing damage listed in paragraph 8, 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234A433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
38 

1 Worldwide deferred damage or repair at a later 

2 date." 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: What if I were to 

4 assert to you that well, let me change 

5 that. Let me ask you this: are you planning 

6 to call Mr. Plas and/or Mr. Price as part of 

7 your case-in-chief? 

8 MR. HONEYCUTT: If Mr. Vines has 

9 them-- I don't need to have Mr. Plas or Mr. 

10 Price there, Your Honor. Like I said, I agree 

11 with their statements. I find their 

12 statements truthful. I don't believe that the 

13 Administrator has proven that, based on those 

14 two statements and based on the aircraft 

15 having maintenance done on the 20th, that 

16 damage was deferred. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, let 

18 me redirect. Let's assume, just for the sake 

19 of argument, that I accept your assertion and 

20 Mr. Vines' assertion that the statements made 

21 by Mr. Plas and Mr. Price that are attached to 

22 the FAA's Motion in Limine as Exhibits 1 and 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
39 

1 2 should be deemed admitted as true. And if 

2 I do that, Mr. Vines may not need to call 

3 either witness. He could simply say, "These 

4 are the facts that have been deemed admitted 

5 as true, and you may take all reasonable 

6 inferences from them, absent a challenge by 

7 the Respondent." 

8 In that case, Mr. Vines may not 

9 need to call Mr. Plas or Mr. Price, at which 

10 point would you be calling them? 

11 MR. HONEYCUTT: No, ma'am. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Then, if you 

13 aren't calling them, would you be calling 

14 someone else to testify about what damage 

15 means and why a reasonable inference should 

16 not be made that a bent GPU receptor equals 

17 damage? 

18 MR. HONEYCUTT: I would probably, 

19 yes, rna ram/ use the Inspectors that 

20 investigated the allegation, Donahue, 

21 Schaefer, as well as Paul Kahler, my Director 

22 of Maintenance, and Brian Fanning, my Lead 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
40 

1 Mechanic. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

3 MR. HONEYCUTT: I would use those 

4 individuals, the FAA Maintenance Inspector, 

5 Primary Ops Inspector, and Avionics Inspector 

6 or I'm sorry the two principal 

7 Inspectors, I would use them along with my 

8 medical - or my mechanics to make my argument 

9 that the FAA doesn't prove that Mr. Plas and 

10 Mr. Price taxiing out without disconnecting 

11 the GPU caused the damaged, said damage or 

12 said repaired damage. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you. 

14 Mr. Vines, this is your motion. 

15 You have right of final reply. Do you have 

16 anything else that you would like to add? 

17 MR. VINES: No, Judge. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you 

19 very much for the arguments made in this. 

20 I'll simply note that, again, part 

21 of the FAA's Motion in Limine to be admitted 

22 as fact, the admissions that are contained in 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrgross.com 
41 

1 Admissions No. 1, 2, 4, and 5 had already been 

2 addressed by the Court. Those have been 

3 admitted. 

4 The FAA's motion to deem admitted 

5 as fact the request for Admission Nos. 12, 15, 

6 16, and 17 appear not to be disputed and 

7 hereby confirmed and admitted. 

8 And it also appears that there is 

9 a request to admit as fact the contents of the 

10 June 5, 2009 written statement made by Mr. 

11 Eric Price, which is the FAA motion Exhibit 

12 No. 2, and that is not disputed, and I will 

13 deem that admitted. 

14 The FAA's Motion ln Limine to 

15 admit as fact the contents of the June 8th, 

16 2009 written statement made by Mr. Brandon 

17 Plas, which is Exhibit No. 1 ln the FAA's 

18 motion, is also undisputed, and I will also 

19 admit that information as undisputed fact. 

20 I will not, however, take that 

21 leap that the FAA would like me to take and 

22 find that this is sufficient and conclusionary 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
42 

1 enough to prohibit the Respondent from making 

2 an argument that differs from the FAA's 

3 assertion of what a reasonable inference could 

4 be made in terms of the admission and review 

5 of those facts. 

6 So, in essence, I will not grant 

7 the FAA's motion to prohibit the Respondent 

8 from providing information that argues a 

9 different perception or conclusion from those 

10 facts. 

11 I certainly will grant the FAA's 

12 motion that the Respondent should not be 

13 presenting evidence that is contrary to the 

14 above-agreed admitted facts, but I don't get 

15 a sense from the Respondent that it has any 

16 intention of doing that. 

17 I would caution you, Mr. 

18 Honeycutt, that the FAA may or may not call 

19 some of the people that you're hoping for. 

20 And if they don't call them, it's up to you to 

21 either call them yourself or to have someone 

22 else testifying as a witness that could 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
43 

1 present evidence that you think is important. 

2 And we can talk about that a little bit more 

3 in a minute. 

4 Let's talk next about the Motion 

5 to Compel Discovery. This is the Respondent's 

6 motion that was filed, and I have some 

7 additional materials on that that I need to 

8 identify. 

9 Essentially, after the parties had 

10 filed their motions, the Office of Hearings 

11 staff contacted you both, and this was on 

12 January 30, 2014, by email, noting that the 

13 FAA's response referred to some exhibits that 

14 it had not actually attached. And those were 

15 Exhibits 3 and 4. The FAA's Response to the 

16 Motion to Compel referenced three exhibits, 

17 Exhibits 1, 3, and 4, but only Exhibit 1 was 

18 attached. 

19 And there was a response by Mr. 

20 Vines to all parties, including the Office of 

21 Hearings staff, this morning indicating-- oh, 

22 I'm sorry, it was yesterday; excuse me, the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wwvv.nealrgross.com 
44 

1 January 30, 2014 -- indicating that, because 

2 of the very cold weather that the Atlantic 

3 Region is experiencing, the FAA office that 

4 Mr. Vines utilizes in Atlanta, Georgia has 

5 been closed. So, he has not been able to get 

6 a copy of the exhibits to send to the Court. 

7 Is that a correct statement, Mr. 

8 Vines, about the communique that occurred 

9 between you and my staff and Mr. Honeycutt? 

10 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And, Mr. 

12 Honeycutt, would you also agree that's a 

13 correct summation of the ex parte contact that 

14 occurred? 

15 MR . HONEYCUTT : I agree, Your 

16 Honor. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I, then, 

18 received on January 31, 2014, earlier this 

19 morning, a copy of an email from Mr. Honeycutt 

20 to my staff and Mr. Vines talking about a 

21 Freedom of Information request and, then, also 

22 providing that by email. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
45 

1 Mr. Vines, did you get a copy of 

2 that? 

3 MR. VINES: An email that was sent 

4 today at 9:49, yes. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Just so 

6 that you both know, we do not accept email 

7 filings in this office. And I appreciate that 

8 this was very last-minute, but, again, we 

9 don't have any system set up to accept or log 

10 in email filings. We just don't. 

11 So, ln the future, please do not 

12 email material to one of my staff members, in 

13 the assumption that that's going to become 

14 part of the record. 

15 And I will ask you, Mr. Honeycutt, 

16 to formally fax this document or the documents 

17 to my office, so that we have a fax record of 

18 filing. And you need to also send this to the 

19 Hearing Docket Clerk if you want this to be 

20 considered as part of the record. 

21 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

22 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I will 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
46 

1 certainly consider it today as part of the 

2 record, but I want you to know that we won't 

3 be forwarding this to the Hearing Docket and 

4 it hasn't been logged in as a formal filing at 

5 this point. 

6 So, let's chat about that for just 

7 a minute. And I've got a couple of questions 

8 for you about this. 

9 It appears to me that most of this 

10 material that has been discussed and exchanged 

11 by the parties was exchanged years ago, prior 

12 to this case ever reaching the Office of 

13 Hearings, and certainly prior to the point 

14 where this Court got involved and directed the 

15 parties to engage in discovery. 

16 So, my first question to you, Mr. 

17 Honeycutt, as the moving party, is, why didn't 

18 you ask for any of this material during the 

19 discovery process that was --

20 MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, Your Honor, 

21 would you like me to go ahead? I'm sorry. 

22 JUDGE SULLIVAN: yes, let me 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
47 

1 finish -- that was outlined and codified in 

2 writing for you last year? What happened? 

3 MR. HONEYCUTT: Your Honor, in our 

4 Interrogatories and in our Rule 26, we 

5 addressed that we're only using what the 

6 Government, Mr. Vines, will provide. We're 

7 going to use that information as our evidence. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, but if you 

9 thought that you needed to get a full and 

10 complete copy of the Enforcement Investigative 

11 Report, which we have been abbreviating in our 

12 litigation here as the EIR --

13 MR. HONEYCUTT: Uh-hum. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: -- why didn't you 

15 ask for it during the discovery phase of the 

16 litigation? You had an opportunity to 

17 formally request production of it up until 

18 approximately August 26th, 2013, when general 

19 discovery ended. Was there some reason why 

20 you didn't take advantage of that opportunity? 

21 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, rna' am. Under 

22 Rule 26, it's my understanding that (A) (1) (a), 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWIN.nealrgross.com 
48 

1 ln general, except as exempt by the Rule 

2 26 (A) (1) (b), or other wise stipulated and 

3 ordered by the Court, "a party must, without 

4 awaiting a discovery request, provide to the 

5 other parties, " Roman numeral No. I I, "a copy 

6 or description by category and location of all 

7 documents." 

8 By Mr. Vines' Rule 26, he listed 

9 the releasable portions of the Enforcement Act 

10 or file, but, yet, failed to provide me a copy 

11 of it, as required by Rule 26(A). So, I was 

12 assuming that, under that rule, that Mr. Vines 

13 would provide me with that copy. And also, 

14 continuing in that rule, No. (5), "claiming 

15 privilege or protecting trial preparation 

16 material. Informationwithheld. When a party 

17 withholds information otherwise discoverable 

18 by claiming that information is privileged and 

19 subject to protection as trial preparation 

20 material, the party must," Roman numeral No. 

21 I, "expressly make the claim and, II, describe 

22 the nature of the document/communicationwith 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
49 

1 tangible things not produced or disclosed, and 

2 do so in a manner without revealing 

3 information itself privileged or protected, 

4 will enable the other parties to assess the 

s claim and reference a log of withheld 

6 information.'' 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, I'm 

8 familiar with that, and I have a copy of the 

9 rules right in front of me. 

10 MR. HONEYCUTT: So, that was my, 

11 Your Honor 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm going to stop 

13 you, sir. Sir, I'm going to stop you. 

14 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I also have a 

16 copy of the June 6th, 2013 Order setting 

17 litigation dates and procedures in front of 

18 me. And that talks about what you do if you 

19 don't get the discovery that you want and how 

20 to go bout getting the Court's attention and 

21 help if you don't get the discovery that you 

22 want. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
50 

1 So, I think, for me, the question 

2 is not what you had hoped to get without 

3 asking for it. The question is, why didn't 

4 you move to compel it when you didn't get it 

5 when you thought you should? 

6 MR. HONEYCUTT: To be honest with 

7 you, my layman knowledge of the rules. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, let 

9 me ask you this then: in terms of what you 

10 think is there, what do you think is there 

11 that would be helpful to you that you haven't 

12 already gotten? 

13 MR. HONEYCUTT: That is the 

14 problem, Your Honor; I don't have a log of 

15 what is not released to me for me to come to 

16 that conclusion that you're asking for. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: When you --

18 MR. HONEYCUTT: I mean/ I 

19 understand that I didn't follow the procedure 

20 as laid out on June 6th over discovery. So, 

21 therefore, by not following that rule, and the 

22 argument that the Complainant makes in 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
51 

1 response of not having to produce that 

2 information, I ask the Court, then, is Mr. 

3 Vines and the Administrator in violation by 

4 not producing, under Rule 26, as he is 

5 required to do? So, therefore, who violated 

6 which first? 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I think the 

8 real issue is that you are the one that is 

9 requesting relief right now. So, you are th 

1 o one that has to first show compliance with the 

11 rule. And you also have to show that you have 

12 made a good-faith effort to identify to your 

13 friend across the aisle what it is that you 

14 want, when you want it, and why you want it, 

15 and that you have a right to it. 

16 When you do that, and you still 

17 don't get a full package as you would like, 

18 then the rules and the Court Order requires 

19 you to bring it to my attention in a certain 

20 way within a certain period of time, so that 

21 I can assist you. 

22 And what has happened is none of 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
52 

1 that happened. And we're way beyond the 

2 discovery period, and you're telling us that 

3 you needed discovery. And Mr. Vines' response 

4 to this request is that you're too late, 

5 according to what I have read in his material. 

6 And my question to you at this 

7 point is, I don't know what the documents are 

8 that you have in your hand, but you must have 

9 some idea of what it is that you think the 

10 missing portion would give to you. And you're 

11 telling me that you don't know. 

12 MR. HONEYCUTT: I don't know if I 

13 have a complete file, Your Honor, is my 

14 stance, that Mr. Vines didn't provide me a 

15 copy. He provided the attorney who withdrew 

16 from this case the releasable portions and, 

17 yet, did not provide what was withheld and a 

18 log of that, so I could make a determination 

19 of what I felt I could go after. 

20 And then, the question that I 

21 would pose also to the Court is, is it 

22 privileged information in litigation? And I 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
53 

1 feel that I can't put a proper defense 

2 together without the complete file, for the 

3 fact that they draw conclusions from that 

4 file, but, yet, decide what's releasable and 

5 what's not. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. The first 

7 point that you make is whether or not it's 

8 privileged. In the way that these kinds of 

9 cases go, I don't get to open that door 

10 necessarily until you prove that you have the 

11 standing to discuss the matter. 

12 So, for example, if you don't do 

13 what you're supposed to do when you're 

14 supposed to do it, you don't get to go into 

15 all the other arguments; the door remains 

16 closed. 

17 MR. HONEYCUTT: I agree with you 

18 on that, Your Honor. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. So, let me 

20 ask you this: did you get a copy of the 

21 redacted EIR from your attorney before he left 

22 his representation of your case? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
54 

1 MR . HONEYCUTT : In 2011, I did 

2 receive some information from the attorney 

3 that was the redacted EIR. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So, you 

5 already have that? 

6 MR. HONEYCUTT: I'm, again, not 

7 sure what the complete file is, but I do 

8 have I mean, I don't know if that's 

9 completely what Mr. Vines is going to bring to 

10 Court or if he is going to bring another 

11 document that's not ln what I have. Because, 

12 again, Mr. Vines did not release to me any 

13 part of the file. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I understand that 

15 you're telling me that Mr. Vines has not given 

16 you anything recently. Is that accurate? 

17 MR . HONEYCUTT : That is correct 

18 that Mr. Vines has not sent me anything since 

19 I've been representing Worldwide. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, but, as I 

21 understand it from the record before me, you 

22 haven't asked him to, either. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 vvww.nealrgross.com 
55 

1 MR. HONEYCUTT: I did not make a 

2 formal request, yes, to Mr. Vines, no. And 

3 the document that you' re referencing, my 

4 Freedom of Information Act that I requested 

5 from both the Tampa FSOD Manager, who is 

6 leading this investigation, and also in 

7 Washington, D.C., the Freedom of Information 

8 Act to the FAA there, I requested that and I 

9 spoke to Mr. Vines once I became -- once my 

10 attorney stepped down and was no longer 

11 wanting to represent us, I had mentioned to 

12 him that I wanted a complete file. And again, 

13 he said it was privileged information. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

15 MR . HONEYCUTT : I never made a 

16 formal request in letter to him. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: But this was just 

18 a conversation you had on the phone? 

19 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, and you 

21 MR. HONEYCUTT: But good faith, as 

22 you mentioned earlier, was the fact that I did 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
56 

1 send in the FOI and I did have a conversation 

2 with him about it. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And I '11 

4 note that ln the emailed materials that I 

5 received this morning through my attorney 

6 staff, you do have a copy of the June 24, 2009 

7 letter to an FAA employee requesting, through 

8 the FOIA Act, a full copy of the EIR. And I 

9 take it that, between June 24, 2009 and 

10 today's date, January 31, 2014, you have 

11 gotten either no response or an inadequate 

12 response from the person you addressed this 

13 letter to? 

14 MR. HONEYCUTT: That is correct, 

15 ma'am, I have not had any response reference 

16 both letters. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And when you say 

18 "both letters," as I look at the material, you 

19 also have a letter dated June 24, 2009 that 

2 o has no individual name, just a general letter 

21 to the FAA, again requesting an expedited FOIA 

22 release. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wvvw.nealrgross.com 
57 

1 MR. HONEYCUTT: That is correct, 

2 ma'am. I sent it to the Aviation 

3 AdministrationNational Freedom of Information 

4 Act staff, ARC-40, and addressed it to the 

5 officer at that location. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Since June 24, 

7 2009, have you followed up on these letters at 

8 all? 

9 MR. HONEYCUTT: Not other than the 

10 conversation that I had with Mr. Vines. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. In terms 

12 of the material that you do have in front of 

13 you that purports to be the redacted copy of 

14 the EIR, what portion are redacted? Can you 

15 tell me anything about the portions that are 

16 redacted? 

17 For example, did you have a 25-

18 page EIR with one page redacted, 15 pages 

19 redacted, 24 of the 25 pages redacted? Can 

20 you give me a sense of you're looking at and 

21 why you're unhappy with it? 

22 MR. HONEYCUTT: The file that I 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com 
58 

1 have is for official use only. It starts with 

2 No. 1, Statement of the Case. Part of that 

3 paragraph on that first page is redacted; the 

4 second page, page 3 of that, over two-thirds 

5 of the page is redacted. The next page is 

6 completely redacted. 

7 So, therefore, for me to draw 

8 conclusions, again, Your Honor, I can't draw 

9 -- I don't read riddles, with no disrespect 

10 meant, Your Honor. 

11 But, again, it is my understanding 

12 that the Administrator took this file and 

13 compiled and came to a conclusion that I have 

14 violated regulations. And I have asked for 

15 the complete file, so I can come to the 

16 conclusion and have the same information to 

17 defend the allegation. 

18 So, the question, is it 

19 privileged? And again, I go back to we're 

20 referencing I didn't follow procedure laid 

21 down in June for discovery, but I would also 

22 ask, did Mr. Vines follow procedure of Rule 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
59 

1 26? 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is there anything 

3 else that you would like to add to your motion 

4 at this point? 

5 MR. HONEYCUTT: I feel that it's 

6 tainted information, that Mr. Vines didn't 

7 follow Rule 26, didn't provide me the 

8 information that's due me, regardless if I 

9 requested it, as it states in the beginning of 

10 the rule and, therefore, has denied me the 

11 ability to build a case. 

12 And anybody that he is going to 

13 call referencing that file, I ask the Court to 

14 strike the Investigative Report file, for the 

15 fact that Mr. Vines did not produce it as 

16 required. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. 

18 Thank you very much. 

19 Mr. Vines, do you have any 

20 response? 

21 MR. VINES : Judge, none other than 

22 what's in my motion. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
1 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

MOTION CONFERENCE 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

FEB 1 8 2014 

HEARING DOC ET 

FEDERAL AVIATION 

ADMINISTRATION, 

Complainant, 

v. FDMS No. 

FAA-2013-

0045 

WORLDWIDE AIRCRAFT SERVICES, 

INC., 

Respondent. 

Friday, 

January 31, 2014 

Via Teleconference 

The motion conference came on for 

hearing, pursuant to notice, at 10:30 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN, 

Administrative Law Judge 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

WILLIAM P. VINES, ESQ. 

Office of the Regional Counsel 

Southern Region 

Federal Aviation Administration 

P.O. Box 20636 

Atlanta, GA 30320 

(404) 305-5200 

( 4 0 4 ) 3 0 5-5 2 2 3 (Fax) 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

MICHAEL A. HONEYCUTT 

President 

of: Worldwide Aircraft Services, Inc. 

Co/ JET I.C.U. 

2561 Rescue Way 

Brooksville, FL 34604 

(352) 796-2540 

(352) 792-2549 (Fax) 

NEAL R. GROSS 

2 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
3 

1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 10:33 a.m. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: We're on the 

4 record in the Matter of worldwide Services, 

5 Inc. This is Docket No. FAA-2013-0075. 

6 Today is Friday, January 31, 2014, 

7 and the parties have convened for a motion 

8 conference prior to the March 2014 hearing. 

9 The FAA is represented by its 

10 attorney of record, Mr. William P. Vines. He 

11 is appearing by telephone. 

12 The Respondent is represented by 

13 its President, Mr. Michael A. Honeycutt. He 

14 is also appearing by telephone. 

15 Sitting as an observer with Mr. 

16 Honeycutt and participating as an observer in 

17 these proceedings is his assistant, Sarah 

18 Guenther. 

19 Also present at the Office of 

20 Hearings, seated as observers only, are Mr. 

21 Cody L. Smith, an attorney advisor at this 

22 office, and Mr. Andy Orr, a law student intern 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
4 

1 with this office. 

2 Good morning, everyone. 

3 I'll note that, essentially, the 

4 last time we convened was on January 8th, 

5 2014. The parties appeared by telephone for 

6 a scheduled prehearing conference. And during 

7 that time, the parties discussed a variety of 

8 different issues. And as a result, this 

9 conference was scheduled and some new 

10 deadlines were given to the parties to address 

11 ongoing litigation concerns. 

12 A January 9, 2 014 Order set a 

13 Motion Conference and additional litigation 

14 deadlines was then filed. As a result, on 

15 January lOth, 2014, the FAA filed its Motion 

16 in Limine. On January 16, 2014, the 

17 Respondent filed the Respondent's Motion to 

18 Compel. On January 22nd, 2014, the FAA filed 

19 its Response to the Respondent's Motion to 

20 Compel. On January 28th, 2014, the Respondent 

21 filed its Response to the FAA's Motion in 

22 Limine. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
5 

1 I'll note that, after those 

2 responses were filed, there was some email 

3 correspondence with the parties by the Office 

4 of Hearings staff. And I'll simply note that 

5 that email correspondence appears to have been 

6 limited to the Motion to Compel and the 

7 Response to the Motion to Compel, and I'll 

8 identify those a little more specifically when 

9 we turn to that particular motion for 

10 argument. 

11 Let's start, then, with the Motion 

12 in Limine that was filed by the FAA. Before 

13 I ask questions or take argument, I want to 

14 ask a few preliminary questions of both 

15 parties, starting with the FAA. 

16 Mr. Vines, you have indicated that 

17 you had received from the Respondent a variety 

18 of different answers to FAA Request for 

19 Discovery, which included requests for 

20 admissions and other discovery. You did not 

21 provide a copy of the actual discovery 

22 responses. So, I do not know who signed the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWIN.nealrgross.com 
6 

1 Respondent's Discovery Request, the date it 

2 was signed, or the date that you received it. 

3 Can you supplement the record orally for me 

4 now? 

5 MR. VINES: With regard to the 

6 responses I received --

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I'm sorry, 

8 sir, I can't hear you. You sound as if you 

9 are away from the phone. Can you speak up, 

10 please? 

11 MR. VINES: Yes. So, again, you 

12 would like the date in which the Respondent 

13 replied to the Agency's Discovery Request? 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I need to know 

15 who responded on behalf of the Respondent, the 

16 identity of the person who actually submitted 

17 the response. I need to know the date that 

18 the responses were signed, and I need to know 

19 when you received the responses. 

20 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. I 

21 received, if I recall correctly, two sets of 

22 responses. The Respondent replied, but was 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
7 

1 not complete in their responses. In other 

2 words, the Respondent did not answer all the 

3 questions, and the Requests for Admissions and 

4 Request for Productions that I sent. 

5 So, I do have in front of me 

6 Respondent's Response to Complainant's Request 

7 for Admissions, signed by Mr. Honeycutt, and 

8 it was emailed to me on September 6th of 2013. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: All right. Is 

10 that the response package that you received 

11 that you're quoting from in your Motion in 

12 Limine? 

13 MR. VINES: Just one minute, 

14 Judge. 

15 (Pause.) 

16 Yes, Judge, in my Motion in 

17 Limine, paragraph (2) , there were two sets of 

18 responses, and the first set was received or, 

19 rather, submitted by the Respondent on 

20 September 6th of 2013. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So, let me 

22 make sure I've gotten all the information from 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
8 

1 you. You have filed a Motion ln Limine 

2 asserting that on June 27, 2013, you 

3 propounded your first set of discovery 

4 requests, and then, on September 6th, 2013 and 

5 again on December 4, 2013, the Respondent 

6 provided responses. 

7 So, all of the responses that you 

8 are identifying in your January 10, 2014 are 

9 from the responses you received from Mr. 

10 Honeycutt on December 6th, 2013? 

11 MR. VINES: On September 6th, 2013 

12 and December 4th of 2013. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Let me try 

14 and do this again. Can you tell me which of 

15 the responses you got when, and were they all 

16 signed by Mr. Honeycutt? And if so, what 

17 dates were they signed before you received 

18 them? 

19 MR. VINES: Again, I received 

20 responses that were signed, again, September 

21 6, 2013. All the responses that were received 

22 that were dated -- that I received that were 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
9 

1 dated on that date were, in fact, signed by 

2 Mr. Honeycutt. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So, the 

4 date of signature for having replied is also 

5 the date of receipt? 

6 MR. VINES: Again, he emailed 

7 those to me and, also, sent those by mail. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So, Mr. 

9 Vines, I'm sorry that I'm not making myself 

10 more clear. I just need to know when they 

11 were signed by the Respondent and when you 

12 received them. And oftentimes, those are two 

13 different dates. 

14 But, from what I'm hearing from 

15 you, you're telling me that Mr. Honeycutt was 

16 the sole person who responded to all FAA 

17 Requests for Discovery and that he signed them 

18 on September 6th, 2013 and December 4, 2013 

19 and served them on you the same day? 

20 MR. VINES: No, Judge. Again, 

21 what I'm trying to say is I have two sets of 

22 discovery requests, two sets of responses that 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
10 

1 were submitted by Worldwide Aircraft. The 

2 first set I received by email on September 

3 6th, 2013. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I 'm going to 

5 stop you. I'll stop you right now. 

6 So, when you received those email 

7 responses on September 6th, 2013, were the 

8 responses signed and dated as September 6th, 

9 2013 by Mr. Honeycutt? 

10 MR. VINES: That's correct. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And then, 

12 when you received additional discovery answers 

13 from the Respondent on December 4, 2013, were 

14 those responses also signed and dated that 

15 same day, December 4, 2013? 

16 MR. VINES: Judge, let me look at 

17 those. 

18 (Pause.) 

19 Judge, to answer your question, 

20 the responses were sent by email to me on 

21 December 4th, the second set of responses from 

22 Worldwide Aircraft were sent to me on December 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
11 

1 4th, 2013, from an individual by the name of 

2 Lisa Aleski. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And can you spell 

4 the first and last name for me, please? 

5 MR. VINES: Yes. L-I-S-A is the 

6 spelling of the first name. The last name is 

7 spelled A-L-E-S-K-I. 

8 And those were sent to me, and 

9 those responses, all the responses were dated 

10 December 4th and signed by Michael Honeycutt. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. So, 

12 Mr. Honeycutt again was the responding party 

13 for the responses you received that were dated 

14 December 14, 2013? 

15 (Pause.) 

16 Mr. Vines? 

17 MR. VINES: Yes. Yes, ma'am. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Could you 

19 answer that question, please? 

20 MR. VINES: I'm sorry, I thought 

21 that was directed to Mr. Honeycutt. Will you 

22 please repeat the question? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
12 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I will tell 

2 Mr. Honeycutt and you when I change my focus. 

3 I'm trying to make sure that I know who the 

4 responding party was for the Respondent's 

5 responses that were sent to you on December 4, 

6 2013. And from I can hear from you, you're 

7 telling us that Mr. Honeycutt signed and dated 

8 those on behalf of the Respondent? 

9 MR. VINES: That's correct, Judge. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you 

11 so much. 

12 Yes, in the future, just so that 

13 you know, you want to be sure and send me 

14 copies of the relevant discovery that you're 

15 using, so that I have a complete record of 

16 when they were returned to you, in part, 

17 because I have to look at whether or not 

18 you're within the timeframe for complying with 

19 discovery and with motions for problems that 

20 arise because of any alleged deficiencies in 

21 discovery. 

22 I also have to know who the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
13 

1 responding party was in terms of the discovery 

2 to determine whether or not they had the 

3 authority to make those responses and bind the 

4 company or business or individual to those 

5 answers. 

6 I mean, there's things that I have 

7 to check that you may not be arguing. So, I 

8 appreciate you looking at that. 

9 And now, I'm going to go to Mr. 

10 Honeycutt. 

11 Mr. Honeycutt, I want to chat with 

12 you very briefly about some of the answers 

13 that are contained in the FAA's Motion in 

14 Limine. And I'm going to turn specifically to 

15 page 2 of the Motion. 

16 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you have that 

18 with you? 

19 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. At the top 

21 of page 2, there are paragraphs identified as 

22 paragraph (a) as in apple, (b) as in ball, and 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
14 

1 (c) as in cat. Do you see those? 

2 MR. HONEYCUTT: I do, Your Honor. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. It's my 

4 understanding from talking just now to Mr. 

5 Vines that you were the person responding to 

6 all of the discovery requests that the FAA 

7 sent to your business. Is that correct? 

8 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, Your Honor, 

9 that is correct. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And 

11 according to the FAA, on page 2 of its Motion 

12 in Limine, at the top of the page under the 

13 paragraph entitled (a) as in apple, they asked 

14 you, quote, "Do you dispute Brandon Plas' June 

15 8, 2009 statement to Robert Donahue?" End 

16 quote. And that's only a partial quote. 

17 MR. HONEYCUTI : Yes, ma'am. Go 

18 ahead. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: There was also a 

20 statement following that saying, quote, ''If 

21 so, please provide the specific facts which 

22 you dispute and why (This statement was 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
15 

1 provided to you on or about June 22nd, 2011, 

2 as part of the release of portions of the 

3 Enforcement Investigative Report)." End 

4 quote. 

5 Do you see all of that? 

6 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am, I do, 

7 Your Honor. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. According 

9 to Mr. Vines, the response he received from 

10 you was, quote, "None." End quote. 

11 MR. HONEYCUTT: Again, Your Honor, 

12 Mr. Vines, I sent him Answers to 

13 Interrogatories, Answers to Produce, and 

14 Answers for what's the other one? 

15 Interrogatories and Request to Produce. 

16 Anyway, I sent Mr. Vines those answers, and he 

17 sent back, wanted more detailed information. 

18 So, our responses are, when I sent 

19 back on December that we were talking about 

20 earlier on that timeline, in my Amended 

21 Answers to the Interrogatories. So, again, 

22 you asked Mr. Vines, and I'm a little confused 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
16 

1 which sets of Answers that I sent him is 

2 referenced in limine. Is it the first set of 

3 discovery that I gave him in September, I 

4 believe it was, we said, or the second set of 

5 Answers, the Amended Answers to 

6 Interrogatories and discovery produced? 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So, let's 

8 talk about that just a little bit. So, what 

9 did you mean, essentially, when the response 

10 was "none"? Was it -- can you just tell me 

11 again what that meant for you? 

12 MR. HONEYCUTT : Your Honor, I 

13 think I'm trying to find my file here. I've 

14 got it, but I'm looking to find what we 

15 actually admit to -- so, I'm not sure about 

16 ''none 11 • "Admit Allegation 1. Admits 

17 Allegation 2. Denies" this is ln 

18 response 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I'm going 

20 to ask you to think quietly to yourself, if 

21 you're looking through some papers. 

22 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
17 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. And what I 

2 would like you to do is look at the Motion in 

3 Limine, page 2, top of the page. 

4 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And it's my 

6 understanding from what you've said so far 

7 that this was part of a larger discovery 

8 response. Can you --

9 MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, there's two 

10 sets of Answers, Your Honor. I've said the 

11 first set was answered, and this answer of the 

12 response of ''none'' may have been in the first 

13 one, of my Response to the Interrogatories, or 

14 it could have been ln the second set of 

15 Interrogatories. And that's what I was asking 

16 Mr. Vines to clarify, which the response 

17 11 none 11 , was it from the first set or the 

18 second set? 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, it's 

20 not for you to have a dialog with Mr. Vines 

21 right now. 

22 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Ww.N.nealrgross.com 
18 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If I want to hear 

2 from him, I'll let him know. 

3 I'm just asking you to tell me 

4 what you recall, if you recall anything. And 

5 it sounds to me like you're saying that you 

6 were asked about this more than once. 

7 MR. HONEYCUTT: I was, Your Honor. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Let's go to 

9 paragraph (b) as in boy on page 2 of the FAA's 

10 Motion in Limine. And I won't read this 

11 particular paragraph since you have it before 

12 you. Can you explain if your response, quote, 

13 "none," end quote, is similar to your response 

14 to the one in paragraph (a) , or was there a 

15 different rationale that you were giving for 

16 this answer? 

17 MR. HONEYCUTT: Where I'm at 

18 currently on those two, (a) and (b), is I do 

19 not dispute the statement of Eric Price and 

20 Brandon Plas. I do not dispute their written 

21 statements to Inspector Donahue. I agree that 

22 those are their statements. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
19 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well --

2 MR. HONEYCUTT: And I don't 

3 dispute their statements. I don't dispute 

4 their statements, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: But when you say 

6 you don't dispute their statements, I guess my 

7 question to you is, does this mean that you 

8 don't dispute that they gave those particular 

9 statements or are you saying that you don't 

10 dispute the truth of what those statements 

11 contain? 

12 MR. HONEYCUTT : I don't dispute 

13 them giving the statements and I don't dispute 

14 that what they said is the truth. My dispute 

15 is the assumption and allegation that is 

16 concluded from their statements that Mr. Vines 

17 has written in the Complaint. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And that being 

19 what, in your opinion? 

20 MR. HONEYCUTT: I would have to go 

21 back and re-read the Complaint, to the point 

22 that, again, what I'm saying is I don't 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WIJIIW. nealrgross.com 
20 

1 dispute Brandon Plas and Eric Price's 

2 statement. I believe they made a truthful 

3 statement. I don't agree with Mr. Vines' 

4 conclusion that we validated the FAR based on 

5 partly those two statements. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

7 MR. HONEYCUTT: So, there's more 

8 to the allegations and to the Complaint. To 

9 draw the conclusion from just those two 

10 statements, I don't agree with that. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. That's 

12 very helpful. 

13 Now let's go to paragraph (c) as 

14 ln cat, which, again, is on page 2 of the 

15 FAA's Motion in Limine. There was a Request 

16 for Production of three years of financial 

17 statements or tax records. And your response 

18 was, quote, "Not applicable." End quote. 

19 Why, in your opinion, is this not 

20 applicable? 

21 MR. HONEYCUTT: I'm not trying to 

22 claim that I would be unable to pay the fine 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
21 

1 of the $12,375 penalty. Therefore, I would 

2 not have to produce tax returns, show that I 

3 was unable to pay that. I could pay the fine. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I just 

5 want to make sure that you understand that 

6 part of your affirmative defenses on the 

7 proposed civil penalty include the opportunity 

8 to raise financial limitation. And so, if you 

9 don't want to raise those affirmative 

10 defenses, you don't have to for mitigating 

11 circumstances, but, then, I wouldn't be able 

12 to take into consideration arguments that you 

13 make in your case-in-chief or at the end of 

14 the case that you couldn't afford to pay. I 

15 couldn't find those to be very persuasive if 

16 you don't provide financial documentation. It 

17 sounds to me like you know that, but I just 

18 wanted to make sure. 

19 MR. HONEYCUTT: I understand that 

20 -- I understand. I could make the payment, 

21 Your Honor, yes. 

22 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You don 1 t want to 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
22 

1 raise a financial inability or problems as 

2 part of your defense in this case? That's 

3 what I'm hearing from you. 

4 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, I 'm not going 

5 to make that part of the defense, an aspect. 

6 I would like to request that if I am found in 

7 violation and the penalty is upheld, and that 

8 amount is the amount that we're going to go 

9 after, that I would possibly have the option 

10 to negotiate a payment plan. But do I need to 

11 produce those documents now? I would have to 

12 make that decision now, if I want to --

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, a payment 

14 plan is different from having the ability to 

15 pay. 

16 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And typically, I 

18 do not get involved in structuring payment 

19 plans as part of my decisionmaking process. 

20 Usually, I leave that to the parties. 

21 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am, and 

22 that's the question I guess I'm asking, is if 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 INVIIW .nealrg ross.com 
23 

1 we can -- I could pay the fine if I had to at 

2 the end of the day. I would like, if not 

3 found guilty, not to-- well, I mean, if found 

4 guilty, though, to have an option to work with 

5 them on paying it. But I have to, if it 

6 requires producing three years of statements 

7 and everything right now, to delay, I would go 

8 with I would be able to pay the fine. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I 

10 understand. 

11 Mr. Vines, let me chat with you 

12 about installment payments. Typically, I do 

13 not get involved in ordering payment plans, 

14 for various reasons. Do you still do that if 

15 you go to a hearing and a civil penalty is 

16 awarded? Do you still engage in payment plan 

17 discussions with the opposing party? 

18 MR. VINES: Judge, I don't have 

19 the answer for that. Normally, in settlement 

20 discussions we do if asked by the parties to 

21 enter an installment or a payment plan, we do 

22 discuss that. But I'm not familiar with our 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
24 

1 process where we go to a hearing and a judge 

2 finds in favor of the Agency and orders a 

3 particular civil penalty. I'm not sure what 

4 the Agency does at that point. I'll be happy 

5 to look into that and provide an answer to 

6 both you and Mr. Honeycutt. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I can tell 

8 you that, according to the regulations, you 

9 still have the authority to engage in 

10 structuring a payment plan, even after 

11 hearing, as I read the regulation. 

12 MR. VINES: Okay, Judge. And for 

13 your information, this is the first time I've 

14 gotten this far in a DOT civil penalty 

15 proceeding. So, I am, too, on a learning 

16 curve in this particular jurisdiction. So, I 

17 will definitely research that and provide an 

18 answer to you and the attorney. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. That would 

20 be helpful because, if your Agency takes the 

21 position that you would rather have me do it, 

22 I'm happy to do it. But, typically, as I read 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
25 

1 the regulation and some of the case law, 

2 because this issue has come up before me 

3 before, the Agency prefers to keep that option 

4 for itself, even after a decision by a judge 

5 is issued. 

6 So, if you don't prefer that and 

7 you would like me to take that on as part of 

8 the case decision, I'm happy to do it. But I 

9 would prefer to tip to my hat to you, if you 

10 would like to retain that ability. And the 

11 regulations don't prevent you from doing it. 

12 MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You're welcome. 

14 Okay. Then, my original questions 

15 are addressed. 

16 Mr. Vines, we can do the Motion in 

17 Limine portion for you in two different ways. 

18 I can just give you about five minutes to do 

19 an overview, if you would like, and then, 

20 reserve my questions to the end of that or I 

21 can ask you my questions first, and then, let 

22 you sum up after. Which is your preference? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
26 

1 MR. VINES: I guess we can do the 

2 latter, Judge. I think the motion is just 

3 straightforward as to the basically, if I 

4 recall correctly, Judge, you asked that I 

5 submit this to the Court in light of the 

6 nature of the litigation, that being a pro se 

7 Respondent. 

8 And again, these are just facts 

9 that I've asked to be, I guess, in lack of a 

10 better term, just stipulating to, and that was 

11 the purpose of filing this motion, Judge. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, 

13 let's talk about a couple of them. 

14 You had requested that the request 

15 for admission Nos. 1, 2, 4, and-- let me see 

16 -- 4 and 5 be deemed admitted as true. And I 

17 would simply note that those have already been 

18 addressed by the January 9, 2014 Court Order. 

19 So, those requests for admissions have already 

20 been deemed admitted by a party agreement and 

21 confirmed by the Court. So, that portion of 

22 the motion to me is moot. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrg ross .com 
27 

1 MR. VINES: Okay. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: The next section, 

3 you're talking about requests for admission 

4 Nos. 12, 15, 16, and 17. And those are 

5 contained on pages 2, 3, and 4 of the Motion 

6 in Limine. 

7 As I read the Respondent's 

8 responsive materials, again, those are non9 disputed and it's non-disputed, and I '11 check 

10 with Mr. Honeycutt before I make a final 

11 ruling. Then, those, again, would be 

12 confirmed by the Court. 

13 I think the concern, based on the 

14 material that I have received, is your 

15 assertion that, even with those admissions, 

16 that the paragraph No. 10 in the FAA's 

17 Complaint is, therefore, proved. And I want 

18 you to take a look at paragraph 10 of the 

19 Complaint with me, if you would be so kind. 

20 And I want to ask you if you can 

21 explain to me how paragraph 10 would be 

22 conclusivelyproven with those few admissions. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Ww-N.nealrgross.com 
28 

1 And the reason I ask that is because those 

2 admissions basically say that there was a 

3 failure to disconnect the ground power unit, 

4 which we can all refer to as the "GPU" today, 

5 before the flight crew took off for a flight 

6 on May 3rd, 2009. 

7 The admissions also say that, on 

8 May 20th, 2009, which was 17 days later, there 

9 was maintenance performed on the same aircraft 

10 where the GPU receptacle was replaced. But I 

11 don't see ln these four new admissions the 

12 assertion that there's a proof of actual 

13 damage on May 3rd, 2009, and that that was the 

14 damage that was deferred for maintenance for 

15 17 days. And I'm wondering if I'm missing 

16 something. 

17 MR. VINES: The damage referred to 

18 on May 3rd --to make sure, you're saying 

19 there was damage reported on May 20th, but 

20 you're not making the connection to the issue 

21 of May 3rd, the deferral? 

22 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Correct. I'm 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
29 

1 thinking that your Mot ion in Limine -- and I 'm 

2 looking at page 3, which has paragraphs 

3 identified as (e) as in egg, (f) as in Frank, 

4 referring to, respectively, the request for 

5 admissions 12 and 15. So, I have an admission 

6 saying there was a takeoff without 

7 disconnecting the GPU on May 3rd, 2009, and 

8 then, 17 days later, on May 20, 2009, a GPU 

9 receptacle was replaced. 

10 And then, I look at paragraph 10 

11 of your Complaint, because part of your Motion 

12 in Limine says that these admissions prove 

13 paragraph 10. There was a detection of 

14 damage, and then, the Respondent deferred 

15 repair of the damage to a later date. 

16 And I'm not quite sure that I 

17 agree with you that the material that you have 

18 submitted conclusively proves paragraph 10 ln 

19 your Complaint, because you're asking me to 

20 prohibit the Respondent from challenging 

21 evidence about paragraph 10. And before I do 

22 that, I have to understand your thinking and 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
30 

1 agreement with it. 

2 MR. VINES: Judge, again, I'm 

3 looking through my Motion in Limine, and I'm 

4 not seeing the reference to the paragraph in 

5 the Complaint. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. You have, 

7 on page 4 of your Motion in Limine, under 

8 paragraph V, which is Roman numeral V, a 

9 statement saying that the Respondent's 

10 admission to the request for admissions 12, 

11 15, 16, and 17 are relevant and support the 

12 allegations contained in paragraphs 3 and 10 

13 of the Complaint. 

14 And then, you ask for relief under 

15 paragraph 6 on page 4 of your Motion in 

16 Limine. And part of that relief is to 

17 prohibit the Respondent from presenting 

18 evidence on those matters. 

19 And so, I'm a little concerned 

20 because I am not sure that you've made the 

21 case. And if you have and I've missed it, I 

22 want to give you an opportunity now to explain 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WINW.nealrgross.com 
31 

1 that to me. 

2 Do you see your request on page 4 

3 of the Motion in Limine? 

4 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Am I missing 

6 something in terms of the analysis of those 

7 factual pieces of information to the 

8 allegation of paragraph 10 in your Complaint? 

9 MR. VINES: Judge, the reference 

10 to paragraph 12 is tied in with a statement 

11 made by, I believe, the mechanic who wrote a 

12 statement regarding damage to the aircraft 

13 related to the GPU. And I guess what I'm 

14 trying to say, and I didn't articulate it very 

15 clearly, is that paragraph -- Administrator's 

16 request for admission No. 12 and response 

17 thereto is tied in with a statement made by 

18 the mechanic and I believe the pilot of this 

19 aircraft regarding the damage. And those are 

20 intertwined. 

21 Specifically, that on page 3, the 

22 paragraph (4) (b), where I talk about the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
32 

1 flight crew operating the aircraft in which 

2 they taxied and took off without first 

3 disconnecting the ground power unit, when you 

4 combine that with the statement --

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I'm going to 

6 stop you. You're still talking about the 

7 Complaint? Or are you referring back to the 

8 Motion in Limine? 

9 MR. VINES: I'm sorry, the Motion 

10 ln Limine on page 3. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you. 

12 MR. VINES: We're looking at 

13 paragraph (4) (e) regarding request for 

14 admission No. 12, is what I'm focusing on. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

16 MR. VINES: So, that, combined 

17 with a statement made by, I believe, the pilot 

18 and mechanic, which Mr. Honeycutt and we have 

19 discussed earlier, and he does not dispute the 

20 veracity or the truth of the matter contained 

21 in those statements, those statements combined 

22 with paragraph, request for admission No. 12, 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
33 

1 goes to show that there was damage and that it 

2 was deferred. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, let 1 s go to 

4 those statements then. So, I have before me 

5 Government Exhibit No. 1, which was apparently 

6 submitted by a Brandon Plas, P as in Paul, L 

7 as in llama, A as in apple, S as in Sam. And 

8 it's two pages long. He was identified as the 

9 pilot in command or the PIC. 

10 So, show me in this statement 

11 where he is asserting that there was damage 

12 that he saw before he took off from his first 

13 station. I think it was Brooksville. 

14 (Pause.) 

15 MR. VINES: If you look at the 

16 first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth 

17 paragraph, he states, "The PIC turned off the 

18 GPU and ran inside to turn off the power and 

19 burner, but forgot to disconnect the GPU from 

20 the aircraft." 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I saw that. And 

22 how does that translate into damage to the GPU 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
34 

1 unit on the aircraft? 

2 MR. VINES: That is what the 

3 Agency is arguing caused the damage to the 

4 GPU. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, but I don't 

6 have an affirmative statement, at least that 

7 I can see in this particular report by Mr. 

8 Plas that he identifies this as damage to the 

9 GPU on the aircraft, either before he took off 

10 or after he landed. And that's my concern, is 

11 that I cannot make assumptions as to what 

12 damage means or what it meant to him, or 

13 whether or not he perceived that as damage and 

14 just didn't mean to-- just forgot to say it. 

15 MR. VINES: Okay. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So, is it your 

17 argument that I should simply presume that, 

18 because he forgot to disconnect the GPU from 

19 the aircraft, that it was damaged at that 

20 point? 

21 MR. VINES: That's the argument 

22 we'll be making, Judge, yes. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
35 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Is there 

2 anything on the letter that was submitted as 

3 Government Exhibit No. 2, authored by an Eric 

4 Price, spelled P as in Paul, R as in Robert, 

5 I as in igloo, C as in cat, E as in egg, that 

6 would add to your argument regarding your 

7 request for a limitation of the Respondent's 

s case at trial? 

9 MR. VINES: I believe -- let me 

10 reference the document, Judge. 

11 (Pause.) 

12 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge, it would 

13 be the third paragraph. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And what in the 

15 third paragraph, in your opinion, is relevant? 

16 MR. VINES: It states that Mr. 

17 Plas was approached by line crew personnel in 

18 Marsh Harbor about the problem connecting the 

19 GPU. He was unable to connect the GPU --

20 discussed with me that we might have taxied 

21 the airplane with the GPU connected because 

22 the GPU receptacle pin was bent. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
36 

1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And is it 

2 your assertion that, because there was a 

3 report that the GPU receptacle pin was bent, 

4 that that equates to damage? 

5 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Vines, 

6 can you please try to make an effort to speak 

7 up or come off speaker off? I'm not sure 

8 what's going on. 

9 MR. VINES: Yes. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I' 11 note that 

11 the court reporter just interrupted and 

12 addressed a comment to Mr. Vines. 

13 Mr. Court Reporter, in the future 

14 please address it to me and I'll take care of 

15 it. 

16 THE COURT REPORTER: Sure. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. 

18 Mr. Vines, you are fading in and 

19 out. So, if you're on a speaker phone, I need 

20 to have you either be right next to your 

21 speaker phone or, if it doesn't help, we'll 

22 tell you and we '11 have you pick up the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
37 

1 speaker handset. 

2 MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You're welcome. 

4 Okay. Okay. Thank you. 

5 Anything else that you would like 

6 the Court to consider in your Motion in 

7 Limine? 

8 MR. VINES: No, Judge. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 

10 Honeycutt, let me turn to you. You've heard 

11 the argument by Mr. Vines. What is your 

12 response to that? 

13 MR. HONEYCUTT: Exactly, Your 

14 Honor, that I don't see a conclusion drawn 

15 between Mr. Plas' statement nor Mr. Price's 

16 statement, reference them possibly taxiing out 

17 with the GPU plug still connected from its 

18 original departure point and drawing a 

19 conclusion that the aircraft was damaged. 

20 And, in particular, where he 

21 references in the Complaint No. 10, "After the 

22 taxiing damage listed in paragraph 8, 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234A433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
38 

1 Worldwide deferred damage or repair at a later 

2 date." 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: What if I were to 

4 assert to you that well, let me change 

5 that. Let me ask you this: are you planning 

6 to call Mr. Plas and/or Mr. Price as part of 

7 your case-in-chief? 

8 MR. HONEYCUTT: If Mr. Vines has 

9 them-- I don't need to have Mr. Plas or Mr. 

10 Price there, Your Honor. Like I said, I agree 

11 with their statements. I find their 

12 statements truthful. I don't believe that the 

13 Administrator has proven that, based on those 

14 two statements and based on the aircraft 

15 having maintenance done on the 20th, that 

16 damage was deferred. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, let 

18 me redirect. Let's assume, just for the sake 

19 of argument, that I accept your assertion and 

20 Mr. Vines' assertion that the statements made 

21 by Mr. Plas and Mr. Price that are attached to 

22 the FAA's Motion in Limine as Exhibits 1 and 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
39 

1 2 should be deemed admitted as true. And if 

2 I do that, Mr. Vines may not need to call 

3 either witness. He could simply say, "These 

4 are the facts that have been deemed admitted 

5 as true, and you may take all reasonable 

6 inferences from them, absent a challenge by 

7 the Respondent." 

8 In that case, Mr. Vines may not 

9 need to call Mr. Plas or Mr. Price, at which 

10 point would you be calling them? 

11 MR. HONEYCUTT: No, ma'am. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Then, if you 

13 aren't calling them, would you be calling 

14 someone else to testify about what damage 

15 means and why a reasonable inference should 

16 not be made that a bent GPU receptor equals 

17 damage? 

18 MR. HONEYCUTT: I would probably, 

19 yes, rna ram/ use the Inspectors that 

20 investigated the allegation, Donahue, 

21 Schaefer, as well as Paul Kahler, my Director 

22 of Maintenance, and Brian Fanning, my Lead 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
40 

1 Mechanic. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

3 MR. HONEYCUTT: I would use those 

4 individuals, the FAA Maintenance Inspector, 

5 Primary Ops Inspector, and Avionics Inspector 

6 or I'm sorry the two principal 

7 Inspectors, I would use them along with my 

8 medical - or my mechanics to make my argument 

9 that the FAA doesn't prove that Mr. Plas and 

10 Mr. Price taxiing out without disconnecting 

11 the GPU caused the damaged, said damage or 

12 said repaired damage. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you. 

14 Mr. Vines, this is your motion. 

15 You have right of final reply. Do you have 

16 anything else that you would like to add? 

17 MR. VINES: No, Judge. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you 

19 very much for the arguments made in this. 

20 I'll simply note that, again, part 

21 of the FAA's Motion in Limine to be admitted 

22 as fact, the admissions that are contained in 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrgross.com 
41 

1 Admissions No. 1, 2, 4, and 5 had already been 

2 addressed by the Court. Those have been 

3 admitted. 

4 The FAA's motion to deem admitted 

5 as fact the request for Admission Nos. 12, 15, 

6 16, and 17 appear not to be disputed and 

7 hereby confirmed and admitted. 

8 And it also appears that there is 

9 a request to admit as fact the contents of the 

10 June 5, 2009 written statement made by Mr. 

11 Eric Price, which is the FAA motion Exhibit 

12 No. 2, and that is not disputed, and I will 

13 deem that admitted. 

14 The FAA's Motion ln Limine to 

15 admit as fact the contents of the June 8th, 

16 2009 written statement made by Mr. Brandon 

17 Plas, which is Exhibit No. 1 ln the FAA's 

18 motion, is also undisputed, and I will also 

19 admit that information as undisputed fact. 

20 I will not, however, take that 

21 leap that the FAA would like me to take and 

22 find that this is sufficient and conclusionary 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
42 

1 enough to prohibit the Respondent from making 

2 an argument that differs from the FAA's 

3 assertion of what a reasonable inference could 

4 be made in terms of the admission and review 

5 of those facts. 

6 So, in essence, I will not grant 

7 the FAA's motion to prohibit the Respondent 

8 from providing information that argues a 

9 different perception or conclusion from those 

10 facts. 

11 I certainly will grant the FAA's 

12 motion that the Respondent should not be 

13 presenting evidence that is contrary to the 

14 above-agreed admitted facts, but I don't get 

15 a sense from the Respondent that it has any 

16 intention of doing that. 

17 I would caution you, Mr. 

18 Honeycutt, that the FAA may or may not call 

19 some of the people that you're hoping for. 

20 And if they don't call them, it's up to you to 

21 either call them yourself or to have someone 

22 else testifying as a witness that could 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
43 

1 present evidence that you think is important. 

2 And we can talk about that a little bit more 

3 in a minute. 

4 Let's talk next about the Motion 

5 to Compel Discovery. This is the Respondent's 

6 motion that was filed, and I have some 

7 additional materials on that that I need to 

8 identify. 

9 Essentially, after the parties had 

10 filed their motions, the Office of Hearings 

11 staff contacted you both, and this was on 

12 January 30, 2014, by email, noting that the 

13 FAA's response referred to some exhibits that 

14 it had not actually attached. And those were 

15 Exhibits 3 and 4. The FAA's Response to the 

16 Motion to Compel referenced three exhibits, 

17 Exhibits 1, 3, and 4, but only Exhibit 1 was 

18 attached. 

19 And there was a response by Mr. 

20 Vines to all parties, including the Office of 

21 Hearings staff, this morning indicating-- oh, 

22 I'm sorry, it was yesterday; excuse me, the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wwvv.nealrgross.com 
44 

1 January 30, 2014 -- indicating that, because 

2 of the very cold weather that the Atlantic 

3 Region is experiencing, the FAA office that 

4 Mr. Vines utilizes in Atlanta, Georgia has 

5 been closed. So, he has not been able to get 

6 a copy of the exhibits to send to the Court. 

7 Is that a correct statement, Mr. 

8 Vines, about the communique that occurred 

9 between you and my staff and Mr. Honeycutt? 

10 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And, Mr. 

12 Honeycutt, would you also agree that's a 

13 correct summation of the ex parte contact that 

14 occurred? 

15 MR . HONEYCUTT : I agree, Your 

16 Honor. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I, then, 

18 received on January 31, 2014, earlier this 

19 morning, a copy of an email from Mr. Honeycutt 

20 to my staff and Mr. Vines talking about a 

21 Freedom of Information request and, then, also 

22 providing that by email. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
45 

1 Mr. Vines, did you get a copy of 

2 that? 

3 MR. VINES: An email that was sent 

4 today at 9:49, yes. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Just so 

6 that you both know, we do not accept email 

7 filings in this office. And I appreciate that 

8 this was very last-minute, but, again, we 

9 don't have any system set up to accept or log 

10 in email filings. We just don't. 

11 So, ln the future, please do not 

12 email material to one of my staff members, in 

13 the assumption that that's going to become 

14 part of the record. 

15 And I will ask you, Mr. Honeycutt, 

16 to formally fax this document or the documents 

17 to my office, so that we have a fax record of 

18 filing. And you need to also send this to the 

19 Hearing Docket Clerk if you want this to be 

20 considered as part of the record. 

21 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

22 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I will 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
46 

1 certainly consider it today as part of the 

2 record, but I want you to know that we won't 

3 be forwarding this to the Hearing Docket and 

4 it hasn't been logged in as a formal filing at 

5 this point. 

6 So, let's chat about that for just 

7 a minute. And I've got a couple of questions 

8 for you about this. 

9 It appears to me that most of this 

10 material that has been discussed and exchanged 

11 by the parties was exchanged years ago, prior 

12 to this case ever reaching the Office of 

13 Hearings, and certainly prior to the point 

14 where this Court got involved and directed the 

15 parties to engage in discovery. 

16 So, my first question to you, Mr. 

17 Honeycutt, as the moving party, is, why didn't 

18 you ask for any of this material during the 

19 discovery process that was --

20 MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, Your Honor, 

21 would you like me to go ahead? I'm sorry. 

22 JUDGE SULLIVAN: yes, let me 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
47 

1 finish -- that was outlined and codified in 

2 writing for you last year? What happened? 

3 MR. HONEYCUTT: Your Honor, in our 

4 Interrogatories and in our Rule 26, we 

5 addressed that we're only using what the 

6 Government, Mr. Vines, will provide. We're 

7 going to use that information as our evidence. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, but if you 

9 thought that you needed to get a full and 

10 complete copy of the Enforcement Investigative 

11 Report, which we have been abbreviating in our 

12 litigation here as the EIR --

13 MR. HONEYCUTT: Uh-hum. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: -- why didn't you 

15 ask for it during the discovery phase of the 

16 litigation? You had an opportunity to 

17 formally request production of it up until 

18 approximately August 26th, 2013, when general 

19 discovery ended. Was there some reason why 

20 you didn't take advantage of that opportunity? 

21 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, rna' am. Under 

22 Rule 26, it's my understanding that (A) (1) (a), 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWIN.nealrgross.com 
48 

1 ln general, except as exempt by the Rule 

2 26 (A) (1) (b), or other wise stipulated and 

3 ordered by the Court, "a party must, without 

4 awaiting a discovery request, provide to the 

5 other parties, " Roman numeral No. I I, "a copy 

6 or description by category and location of all 

7 documents." 

8 By Mr. Vines' Rule 26, he listed 

9 the releasable portions of the Enforcement Act 

10 or file, but, yet, failed to provide me a copy 

11 of it, as required by Rule 26(A). So, I was 

12 assuming that, under that rule, that Mr. Vines 

13 would provide me with that copy. And also, 

14 continuing in that rule, No. (5), "claiming 

15 privilege or protecting trial preparation 

16 material. Informationwithheld. When a party 

17 withholds information otherwise discoverable 

18 by claiming that information is privileged and 

19 subject to protection as trial preparation 

20 material, the party must," Roman numeral No. 

21 I, "expressly make the claim and, II, describe 

22 the nature of the document/communicationwith 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
49 

1 tangible things not produced or disclosed, and 

2 do so in a manner without revealing 

3 information itself privileged or protected, 

4 will enable the other parties to assess the 

s claim and reference a log of withheld 

6 information.'' 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, I'm 

8 familiar with that, and I have a copy of the 

9 rules right in front of me. 

10 MR. HONEYCUTT: So, that was my, 

11 Your Honor 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm going to stop 

13 you, sir. Sir, I'm going to stop you. 

14 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I also have a 

16 copy of the June 6th, 2013 Order setting 

17 litigation dates and procedures in front of 

18 me. And that talks about what you do if you 

19 don't get the discovery that you want and how 

20 to go bout getting the Court's attention and 

21 help if you don't get the discovery that you 

22 want. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
50 

1 So, I think, for me, the question 

2 is not what you had hoped to get without 

3 asking for it. The question is, why didn't 

4 you move to compel it when you didn't get it 

5 when you thought you should? 

6 MR. HONEYCUTT: To be honest with 

7 you, my layman knowledge of the rules. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, let 

9 me ask you this then: in terms of what you 

10 think is there, what do you think is there 

11 that would be helpful to you that you haven't 

12 already gotten? 

13 MR. HONEYCUTT: That is the 

14 problem, Your Honor; I don't have a log of 

15 what is not released to me for me to come to 

16 that conclusion that you're asking for. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: When you --

18 MR. HONEYCUTT: I mean/ I 

19 understand that I didn't follow the procedure 

20 as laid out on June 6th over discovery. So, 

21 therefore, by not following that rule, and the 

22 argument that the Complainant makes in 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
51 

1 response of not having to produce that 

2 information, I ask the Court, then, is Mr. 

3 Vines and the Administrator in violation by 

4 not producing, under Rule 26, as he is 

5 required to do? So, therefore, who violated 

6 which first? 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I think the 

8 real issue is that you are the one that is 

9 requesting relief right now. So, you are th 

1 o one that has to first show compliance with the 

11 rule. And you also have to show that you have 

12 made a good-faith effort to identify to your 

13 friend across the aisle what it is that you 

14 want, when you want it, and why you want it, 

15 and that you have a right to it. 

16 When you do that, and you still 

17 don't get a full package as you would like, 

18 then the rules and the Court Order requires 

19 you to bring it to my attention in a certain 

20 way within a certain period of time, so that 

21 I can assist you. 

22 And what has happened is none of 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
52 

1 that happened. And we're way beyond the 

2 discovery period, and you're telling us that 

3 you needed discovery. And Mr. Vines' response 

4 to this request is that you're too late, 

5 according to what I have read in his material. 

6 And my question to you at this 

7 point is, I don't know what the documents are 

8 that you have in your hand, but you must have 

9 some idea of what it is that you think the 

10 missing portion would give to you. And you're 

11 telling me that you don't know. 

12 MR. HONEYCUTT: I don't know if I 

13 have a complete file, Your Honor, is my 

14 stance, that Mr. Vines didn't provide me a 

15 copy. He provided the attorney who withdrew 

16 from this case the releasable portions and, 

17 yet, did not provide what was withheld and a 

18 log of that, so I could make a determination 

19 of what I felt I could go after. 

20 And then, the question that I 

21 would pose also to the Court is, is it 

22 privileged information in litigation? And I 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
53 

1 feel that I can't put a proper defense 

2 together without the complete file, for the 

3 fact that they draw conclusions from that 

4 file, but, yet, decide what's releasable and 

5 what's not. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. The first 

7 point that you make is whether or not it's 

8 privileged. In the way that these kinds of 

9 cases go, I don't get to open that door 

10 necessarily until you prove that you have the 

11 standing to discuss the matter. 

12 So, for example, if you don't do 

13 what you're supposed to do when you're 

14 supposed to do it, you don't get to go into 

15 all the other arguments; the door remains 

16 closed. 

17 MR. HONEYCUTT: I agree with you 

18 on that, Your Honor. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. So, let me 

20 ask you this: did you get a copy of the 

21 redacted EIR from your attorney before he left 

22 his representation of your case? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
54 

1 MR . HONEYCUTT : In 2011, I did 

2 receive some information from the attorney 

3 that was the redacted EIR. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So, you 

5 already have that? 

6 MR. HONEYCUTT: I'm, again, not 

7 sure what the complete file is, but I do 

8 have I mean, I don't know if that's 

9 completely what Mr. Vines is going to bring to 

10 Court or if he is going to bring another 

11 document that's not ln what I have. Because, 

12 again, Mr. Vines did not release to me any 

13 part of the file. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I understand that 

15 you're telling me that Mr. Vines has not given 

16 you anything recently. Is that accurate? 

17 MR . HONEYCUTT : That is correct 

18 that Mr. Vines has not sent me anything since 

19 I've been representing Worldwide. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, but, as I 

21 understand it from the record before me, you 

22 haven't asked him to, either. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 vvww.nealrgross.com 
55 

1 MR. HONEYCUTT: I did not make a 

2 formal request, yes, to Mr. Vines, no. And 

3 the document that you' re referencing, my 

4 Freedom of Information Act that I requested 

5 from both the Tampa FSOD Manager, who is 

6 leading this investigation, and also in 

7 Washington, D.C., the Freedom of Information 

8 Act to the FAA there, I requested that and I 

9 spoke to Mr. Vines once I became -- once my 

10 attorney stepped down and was no longer 

11 wanting to represent us, I had mentioned to 

12 him that I wanted a complete file. And again, 

13 he said it was privileged information. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

15 MR . HONEYCUTT : I never made a 

16 formal request in letter to him. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: But this was just 

18 a conversation you had on the phone? 

19 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, and you 

21 MR. HONEYCUTT: But good faith, as 

22 you mentioned earlier, was the fact that I did 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
56 

1 send in the FOI and I did have a conversation 

2 with him about it. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And I '11 

4 note that ln the emailed materials that I 

5 received this morning through my attorney 

6 staff, you do have a copy of the June 24, 2009 

7 letter to an FAA employee requesting, through 

8 the FOIA Act, a full copy of the EIR. And I 

9 take it that, between June 24, 2009 and 

10 today's date, January 31, 2014, you have 

11 gotten either no response or an inadequate 

12 response from the person you addressed this 

13 letter to? 

14 MR. HONEYCUTT: That is correct, 

15 ma'am, I have not had any response reference 

16 both letters. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And when you say 

18 "both letters," as I look at the material, you 

19 also have a letter dated June 24, 2009 that 

2 o has no individual name, just a general letter 

21 to the FAA, again requesting an expedited FOIA 

22 release. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wvvw.nealrgross.com 
57 

1 MR. HONEYCUTT: That is correct, 

2 ma'am. I sent it to the Aviation 

3 AdministrationNational Freedom of Information 

4 Act staff, ARC-40, and addressed it to the 

5 officer at that location. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Since June 24, 

7 2009, have you followed up on these letters at 

8 all? 

9 MR. HONEYCUTT: Not other than the 

10 conversation that I had with Mr. Vines. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. In terms 

12 of the material that you do have in front of 

13 you that purports to be the redacted copy of 

14 the EIR, what portion are redacted? Can you 

15 tell me anything about the portions that are 

16 redacted? 

17 For example, did you have a 25-

18 page EIR with one page redacted, 15 pages 

19 redacted, 24 of the 25 pages redacted? Can 

20 you give me a sense of you're looking at and 

21 why you're unhappy with it? 

22 MR. HONEYCUTT: The file that I 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com 
58 

1 have is for official use only. It starts with 

2 No. 1, Statement of the Case. Part of that 

3 paragraph on that first page is redacted; the 

4 second page, page 3 of that, over two-thirds 

5 of the page is redacted. The next page is 

6 completely redacted. 

7 So, therefore, for me to draw 

8 conclusions, again, Your Honor, I can't draw 

9 -- I don't read riddles, with no disrespect 

10 meant, Your Honor. 

11 But, again, it is my understanding 

12 that the Administrator took this file and 

13 compiled and came to a conclusion that I have 

14 violated regulations. And I have asked for 

15 the complete file, so I can come to the 

16 conclusion and have the same information to 

17 defend the allegation. 

18 So, the question, is it 

19 privileged? And again, I go back to we're 

20 referencing I didn't follow procedure laid 

21 down in June for discovery, but I would also 

22 ask, did Mr. Vines follow procedure of Rule 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
59 

1 26? 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is there anything 

3 else that you would like to add to your motion 

4 at this point? 

5 MR. HONEYCUTT: I feel that it's 

6 tainted information, that Mr. Vines didn't 

7 follow Rule 26, didn't provide me the 

8 information that's due me, regardless if I 

9 requested it, as it states in the beginning of 

10 the rule and, therefore, has denied me the 

11 ability to build a case. 

12 And anybody that he is going to 

13 call referencing that file, I ask the Court to 

14 strike the Investigative Report file, for the 

15 fact that Mr. Vines did not produce it as 

16 required. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. 

18 Thank you very much. 

19 Mr. Vines, do you have any 

20 response? 

21 MR. VINES : Judge, none other than 

22 what's in my motion. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com