1

Environmental Protection Agency 1

2

3

4

5
Public Hearing on the 6

PROPOSED CLEAN POWER PLAN 7

FOR EXISTING POWER PLANTS 8

9

10

9 :0 2 a.m. to 4:55 p.m. 11

Wedne sday, July 30 , 201 4 12

13

Omni Hotel at CNN Center 14

100 CNN Center 15

North Tower, Level M4 , Room B 16

Atlanta, GA 30303 17

18

19

20

21

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EP A PANEL NUMBER 1 : 1

FRED THOMPSON, Panel 1 Chair ; and 2

Associate Division Director
, 3
Sectors, Policies, and Programs Division
, 4
Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards, 5

EPA 6

NICK HUTSON , Chemical Engineer, Office of 7

Research and Development, EPA 8

G REG WORLEY , Air Program Manager, Region 4, 9

EPA 10

11

12

13

EPA PANEL NUMBER 2: 14

REID HARVEY, Panel 2 Chair; and 15

Director, Clean Air Markets Division, Office 16

of Air and Radiation, EPA 17
DARRYL WEATHERHEAD, Managing Economist, Office of 18

Air and Radiation, EPA 19

CA ROL KEMKER, Deputy Air Division Director, 20
Region 4, Southeast, EPA 21

22

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PANEL NUMBER 3 : 1

CAROL KEMKER, Panel 3 Chair ; and 2
Deputy Air Division Director, Region 4, 3

Southeast, EPA 4

DA R RYL WEATHERHEAD, Managing Economist, Office of 5

Air and Radiation, EPA 6

REI D HARVEY, Director, Clean Air Markets 7

Division, Office of Air and Radiation, EPA 8

9

10

11

12

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17

18

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20

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C O N T E N T S 1

PAGE 2

PANEL NUMBER 1 3

DOUG GRIMMETT , At lanta small business owner 15 4

BYRON BURROWS , Tampa Electric Company 17 5

JAY MOON, 6

Mis sissippi Manufacturers Association 24 7

ROBERT MANNING, 8

Florida Electri c Power Coordinating Group 29 9

BECK Y RAFTER, Georgia WAND 36 10

CHRIS CARNEVALE, 11

Southern A lliance for Clean Energy 42 12

JAY HAKES, Former Energy Director, Florida 49 13

CHARLES JONES, 14
Georgia Asso ciation of Manufacturers 53 15

BRION FITZPATRICK, 16
Georgia S olar Energy Association 60 17

MARTIN McCONAUGHY, Retired educato r 67 18

STEPHEN WINGE IER, Resident of Georgia 74 19

JAMES CARLSON, Alabama Department of 20

En vironmental Management 79 21

JOHN MYERS, Te nnessee Valley Authority 83 22

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C O N T E N T S (continued) 1

PAGE 2

PANEL NUMBER 1 (continued) 3

SETH GUNNING, Sierra Club 87 4

GREG MULLIS, Tri

- County EMC, Gray, Georgia 93 5

TREY GLENN, Bu s iness Council of Alabama 97 6

DAVID HARM AN, CPA, North Carolina 101 7
HARVARD AYERS, Retired professor, Appalachian 8
State University 106 9

HARRY GREGORY, Savannah State University 112 10

MICHAEL CHURCHMAN, 11

Alabama Env ironmental Council 115 12
CHRISTY CHEWNING, Central Georgia Electric 13

M embership Corporation 121 14

FREE POL AZZO, Greening Georgia 124 15

GREG ANDECK, E nvironmental Defense Fund 130 16

WENDELL RIGSBY, UMWA Local 7930 135 17

DARYL H. DEWBERRY, Dis trict 20, UMWA 140 18

DWIGHT CAGLE, UMWA Local 2397 145 19

THOMAS F. WI LSON, Alabama coal miner 148 20

RICKEY KORNEGAY, Retired coal miner 21

EARL BOB W ISE, Retired coal miner 152 22

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C O N T E N T S (continued) 1

PAGE 2

PANEL NUMBER 1 (continued) 3

CASEY SHELTON, Intern ational Brotherhood of 4

Electrical Workers 162 5

6

PANEL NUMBER 2 7

AUGUST PRESC HLE, Industrial engineer 176 8

VINCENT HALL 182 9

BETH BOND, Southeast Green 186 10

JORDAN THRASHER , United Methodist Church 192 11

PATRICK CA GLE, JobKeeper Al liance 200 12

MARITA NOON, 13

Committee for a C onstructive Tomorrow 204 14

RANDAL L MORRIS, MORRIS FARMS 211 15

RANDALL REE SE, Resident of Virginia 218 16

17

PANEL NUMBER 3 18

ROSS GORDON, At lanta Urban Debate League 222 19

STEV EN JACKSON, MEAC Power 227 20

KELLY COLES, Hiker 233 21

STEVE DAVIDSON, Resident of Austin, Texas 238 22

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C O N T E N T S (continued) 1

PAGE 2

PANEL NUMBER 3 (continued) 3

RIONTE McCOR KLE, Georgia Sierra Club 243 4

CONNOR HAWLEY, Chattahoochee High School 250 5

SARA H LE TTES, Pace Academy 257 6

ELI S ABETH McNAMAR A, League of Women Voters 260 7

SUSAN GAMBLE, Resident of Lawrenceville, 8
Georgia 265 9

GARY SPIKULA, Resident of Lawrenceville, 10
Georgia 267 11

FELICIA DAVIS, Ge orgia Kids Against Pollution 271 12

LAURA MATT OX, Resident of Georgia 276 13

SUE GLOOR, Res ident of Atlanta, Georgia 280 14

JANELLE WRIGHT, Univers ity of Virginia 284 15

RHONDA MAYO, Resi dent of Chicago, Illinois 288 16

GLORIA TATUM 292 17

18

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P R O C E E D I N G S 1

PANEL NUMB ER 1 2

MR. THOMPSON: For the record, this is 3

the Public H earing on the P roposed C arbon 4

Po llution P lan and P roposed C arbon P ollution 5

S tandards for M odified and R econstructed P ower 6

P lants, being held in Atlanta, Ge orgia, on July 7

30 th, 2014. 8
Good morning. My name is Fred Thompson, 9

and I'm the Associate Division Director of the 10
Sectors, Policies, and Programs Division in EPA's 11
Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards, and 12

one of the c hairs of today's public hearing. 13
Thank you all for coming today. Joining me on 14

the panel are, to my left
, Nick Hutson, one of 15
the engineers leading the rule; and to my right, 16
Greg Worley, an Air Program Manager for EPA 17
Region 4. 18
We're here today to listen to your 19

comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 20
pollution from p ower plants. EPA announced both 21

of these proposed rules on June 2nd, 2014. 22

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Power plants are the largest source of 1
carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 2

roughly one

- third of all domestic greenhouse gas 3

emissions. The first rule is EPA's proposed 4

Cl ean Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 5
proposal consists of two main parts: state

6
specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 7
power plants; and guidelines to help states 8
develop their plans for meeting the goals. 9
This proposal gives states flex ibility in 10
determining how to meet their goals. States will 11
choose what goes into their plans that show how 12
they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 13
their goals by 2030. 14
The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 15

address carbon dioxide emissions fr om modified 16

a nd reconstructed power plants. 17

This rule would set emission s limits for 18

two groups of power plants: those that make 19
physical or operational changes that increase the 20
plant's maximum achievable hourly rate of 21
emissions; and those that replace components to 22

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such an extent that the new components exceed 50 1
percent of the capital costs of an entirely new, 2
comparable facility. 3
If you would like more details on either 4

of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 5
available near the registration des k out front. 6

T oday's hearing is one of four public 7
hearings across the country this week on the two 8

proposed rules. We've had a tremendous interest 9

in each of the hearings, a nd I'd like to thank 10

all of you for taking time out of your day today 11
to join us and to share your comments. 12
We have a lot of people signed up to 13

speak today. An d we want to hear from all of 14

them . So, before we get started, I'd like to go 15
through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 16
that will help make today's hearing run smooth ly. 17
First, be sure you have checked in at the 18
registration desk even if you are not planning to 19

speak today. And if you signed up to speak, 20
online or by phone, but haven't told us that 21
you're here, please step out to the registration 22

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desk and let th e EPA staff know there that you 1

ha ve arrived. 2
Second, if you are a speaker, you were 3
given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 4

or Room B. This is Room B. So, let me ask 5

first : A re you in the right ro om? And if not, 6

t his would be the idea time for you t o make the 7

switch

. 8

Okay. H ere's how today's hearing will 9
work. I will call speakers up in pairs. When 10
your name is called, please come to the table at 11

the front of the room. When I call on you to 12
speak, please state your name and spell it for 13

the court reporter. Y our comments will be 14

transcribed and included in the record of 15

comments on the proposed rule. 16
Each speaker will have five minutes to 17
give comments. We have a light , to my left here, 18
to help you know how much time you have left to 19

speak. Whe n the light turns from green to 20
yellow, that you means you have one minute 21
remaining. When it turns red, that's a signal to 22

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wrap up your testimony. The light will flash red 1

and beep when y ou have spoken for five minutes, 2
and at that particular time, it's time to stop 3
your testimony. 4
When you're finished speaking, please 5
remain at the table until the person next to you 6

has complete d his or her testimony. 7

Now, w e're here today to listen to you

. 8
However, a panel member may ask you questions to 9
clarify your comments. I will then call up the 10
next pair of speakers, and so on. 11
If you've brought a written copy of your 12
testimony, please give that to the staff at the 13
registration desk before you leave today. 14

Because of the large number of people who 15
have signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 16
everyone, we're going to have to strictly enforce 17

the five

- minute limit. 18
If you have additional comments that you 19
would like to make, you can submit them in 20
writing. Let me assure you that EPA gives just 21

as much consider ation to comments we receive in 22

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writing as we do to comments we receive at public 1
hearings like this one. So, if you have more 2
that you would like to say, please submit it. 3

Your comments will be reviewed. 4
There's still plenty of time to get 5

written comme nts in, and there are comment cards 6
available at the registration desk out front

. 7

Comments must be receive d by October 16th, 2014. 8

And I will repeat that: Comments must be 9
received by October 16th, 2014. 10
We will put any written comments 11
submitted today in the official d ocket for the 12
proposed rule. Instructions for submitting 13
written comments in other ways are available at 14

the materials t able near the registration desk

. 15
We're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 16
tonight. And we'll take a lunch and dinner 17

bre ak. Right now, the lunch break is scheduled 18

for noon and the dinner break is scheduled for 19
five o'clock. In addition, we may take 20
occasional short breaks throughout the day as 21

needed. 22

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If you have any questions during the day, 1

please see the staff at the registration desk, 2
and someone will try to help you. 3
Finally, I want to ask each of you to 4

please be respectful of everyone who speaks 5
today. We have people with a wide variety of 6

views in the audience, and w e want to hear from 7

all of you. So we can do t hat and to be fair, we 8
ask that everyone listen quietly. Even applause 9
can slow things down, and we want to hear from 10
everyone who has signed up to speak. 11

T hank you again for taking the time today 12

to share your comments on EPA 's proposed rules. 13

And w ith that, let's get started. 14

At this time, I would like to ask Doug 15
Grimmett and Byran Burrows to please come forward 16
for testimony. 17

[Pause.] 18
MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen. 19
[Chorus of "Good morning."] 20
MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for coming. 21

MR. GRIMMETT: T hanks for having us. 22

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MR. BURROWS: Thank you for coming. 1
MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Starting with Mr. 2
Grimmett, please pronounce and spell your name 3
for the court reporter and begin your testimony. 4
MR. GRIMMETT: Yes. I'm Doug Grimmett. 5

It's G

- r

- i

- m

- m

- e

- t

- t. I have a small business in 6

Atlanta. And I've been here for 20 years, and we 7

employ 30 full

- time people, and we work for 8
entertainment and media companies all over the 9
world. So we're very much engaged in the global 10

market. We have to

-- it's a very com petitive 11

market. 12

We have to compete for talent. And 13
that's where the EPA Clean Power Plan gives us 14
enormous competitive advantage, because the 15
quality

-- you know, what

-- the jobs at Primal 16
Screen require a great deal of skill and talent. 17

And what attra cts great talent is a good quality 18

of life. 19
That means good air, good water, and a 20
vibrant urban scene, and good transportation 21
options. And I think I have read about the rule, 22

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so I'm not

-- I don't have any technical opinions 1

about it. I
, just in genera l, I think anything 2
that gives us a better environment, better air, 3
better water, is very good for small businesses, 4
especially businesses in the high

- tech sector, 5

which I am in. 6
I think the cost of cheap fossil fuel is 7
far greater in the long run when you add in the 8
expense of bad health, dirty environment, and, of 9
course, the loss of brain power, which you're 10
seeing in China right now. 11
I feel I represent my colleagues in the 12
high

- technology entrepreneurial sector. And 13
electricity is totally essential for what we do. 14

It's essential for technical innovation. But how 15
we generate it is what's going to determine our 16
future. So I think we should do everything we 17

can to monitor and restrict CO2 emissions. 18

And I want to thank you, EPA 19
representatives, for doin g a great job of really 20
thinking this through and establishing 21
regulations that will improve our lives and that 22

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will help small businesses thrive. That's my 1

statement. 2

Thank you. 3
MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Grimmett. 4

Mr. Burrows. 5
MR. BURROWS: My name i s Byron Burrows. 6

That's B

- u

- r

- r

- o

- w

- s. Byron is B

- y

- r

- o

- n. 7
I'm a professional engineer and Manager 8
of Air Programs with Tampa Electric Company. 9
Tampa Electric is an investor

- owned utility 10

located in west central Florida, with over 11

687,000 residential, c ommercial, and industrial 12
customers that depend on us for reliable power 13

and value

- added energy services. 14
Tampa Electric has served our community 15
for over 115 years and currently utilizes a 16
balanced fuel mix of coal and natural gas. In 17
2005, Tampa Electri c completed the first part of 18

a $1.2 billion initiative that reduced carbon 19
dioxide emissions by 20 percent from 1998 levels. 20
By repowering the coal units to a natural gas 21

combined

- cycle system, 5 million tons of CO2 22

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reductions have been realized every ye ar since 1

2005. 2
These reductions were memorialized by our 3
participation in voluntary, but legally binding, 4
greenhouse gas trading program from 2003 to 2010, 5
and they are valid reductions. The substantial 6
CO2 reductions resulted from an agreement with 7

EPA. This was the very first agreement in EPA's 8
ongoing New Source Review enforcement program. 9
As a result of this agreement with the 10

EPA, TECO and her customers have made a 11
substantial investment to make early reductions. 12
And EPA's proposal for existing sour ces neglects 13
to account for this bold and early action. EPA 14
penalizes the early action. 15

If Florida limits outlined in this 16
proposal are finalized in their current form, our 17
customers will be paying twice for the same 18
reductions many other companies deferr ed until 19
now. Projects that are part of the billion

20
dollar reductions we recently completed are 21
amortized over the remaining life of the coal 22

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plant beyond 2030. 1
To minimize the impact of the customers' 2
bills in this proposal would created stranded 3

assets. The benefits of these reductions, 5 4
million tons of CO2 per year, have been realized 5

for each of the last 10 years. 6
EPA should work with the states to adjust 7
the goals relating to block 2 to a level that 8
recognizes this early action, acknowledges the 9
imp ortance of fuel diversity, preserves the 10
thousands of jobs at risk, and allows existing 11
units to exist and operate with the confines of 12

the Clean Air Act. 13
In addition, EPA's proposal penalizes 14
early action we've already taken with respect to 15

block 1, boile r efficiency improvements. TECO 16
and many other utilities have already completed 17
the relevant efficiency improvement projects 18
outlined by EPA to get these emissions 19
reductions. The EPA's goal

- setting exercise for 20
Florida simply assumes a reduction from 21

ef ficiency improvements as plausible without due 22

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consideration of whether or not potential 1

measures have already been completed. 2
This would arbitrarily reward those who 3
delayed maintenance on power plants until after 4
2012 and penalize others who have proacti vely 5

made reductions. States should be afforded the 6
flexibility to work with EPA to adjust the goal 7

if the appropriate efficiency projects that EPA 8
assumes are feasible and have already been 9
completed or would not achieve the reduction EPA 10
projects. 11

Unfor tunately, EPA's proposal also 12
directly penalizes our customers. In addition to 13
paying for substantial emission reductions 14
described earlier, they've been participating in 15
energy efficiency programs that TECO has 16
incentivized since 1979. Indeed, participa tion 17
in the programs has been diminishing as the 18
energy efficiency opportunities have been 19
depleted in the 35 years of this already

20

successful program. 21
Again, the EPA proposal penalizes these 22

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proactive and forward

- thinking customers who are 1
now benefiting from a lower bill, because these 2
customers would undoubtedly see a substantially 3
higher bill due to the additional costs this 4
proposal would bring. 5
EPA should recognize that the decades of 6
early action, as well as new appliance and 7
building codes, are alre ady reducing load demand, 8
and EPA should work with states to adjust the 9
goal if the remaining reductions are found to be 10
too expensive or simply not practical. 11

We share the concern of our legal counsel 12
that the rule, as proposed, does not comport with 13

the intent or spirit of the Clean Air Act, which 14

is ill

- suited for EPA's approach of the rule. We 15
also share the concerns of various organizations 16
that we support in evaluating this rule, 17
including Florida Electric Power Coordinating 18

Group, Class of 85, and E dison Electric 19

Institute. 20
We will join these groups in preparing 21

and submitting written comments elaborating on 22

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the concerns voiced here today. We desire to 1
provide substantive evidence of our observations 2
described above, and we're actively collaborating 3
with other utilities and organizations in this 4

regard. 5
We've participated in previous hearings 6
on this matter, met individually with the EPA and 7
Florida representatives, and have participated in 8
numerous meetings with our stakeholder groups. 9

It's evident that a robust evaluation is 10

warranted. Therefore, we request an extra, an 11
additional 90 days to prepare a more complete 12
analysis. 13
To summarize, the EPA proposed rule, if 14
implemented as currently drafted, would penalize 15

our customers and our company for s ubstantial 16
early action taken to reduce CO2 emissions. Our 17

low

- income customers would disproportionately be 18
negatively impacted. Our analysis to this point 19
indicated that EPA's proposal pushes each 20
building block beyond practical application. 21

This could be rectified for accounting for the $1 22

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billion repowering. 1
Thank you for the opportunity to 2
participate in this hearing and submit our 3

comments. 4

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Burrows. 5
Are there any questions for either Mr. 6

Grimmett or Mr. Burrows? 7

MR. HUT SON: My question for Mr. Grimmett 8
is, you mentioned your company name, but I didn't 9

catch it. 10

MR. GRIMMETT: It's Primal Screen. 11

Primal Screen. 12

MR. HUTSON: Primal Screen. 13

MR. GRIMMETT: S

- c

- r

- e

- e

- n. 14
MR. THOMPSON: All right. Well, 15

gentleman, thank you both for your testimony. 16

[Pause.] 17

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Our next speakers 18
are Jay Moon and Robert Manning. Jay Moon and 19
Robert Manning. 20

[Pause.] 21
MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen. 22

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[Chorus of "Good morning."] 1
MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us this 2
morning. 3
I'd like to start with you, Mr. Moon. If 4
you will just state and spell your name for the 5
court reporter, and then you can begin testimony. 6

MR. MOON: Thank you very much. 7

MR. THOMPSON: Yes, sir. 8
MR. MOON: Name is Jay Moon, J

- a

- y M

- o

- o

9

n. I'm t he President and CEO of the Mississippi 10

Manufacturers Association in Jackson, 11
Mississippi. 12
Well, thank you and good morning. I 13
appreciate the opportunity to make these comments 14
on this proposed rule today. I have more 15

detailed comments that I will submit in the 16
formal record as a supplement to what I deliver 17
this morning. 18

As mentioned, I'm the President and CEO 19
of the Mississippi Manufacturers Association, 20
which represents over 2,000 manufacturing 21
companies and affiliated businesses in the State 22

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of Missis sippi. Among our members are a number 1
of the significant generators and consumers of 2
electric power within the state. 3

All of our members are concerned that 4
EPA's proposed rule, which would institute a new 5
regulatory framework on Mississippi that would 6

tra nsform how electricity is generated, 7

distributed, transmitted, and used, could 8
potentially eliminate the critical competitive 9
advantage that affordable and reliable 10
electricity provides to the American economy. 11
Although MMA will continue to review 12

EPA's pr oposal and to submit additional comments, 13
it is clear to us that the proposal will be 14
disruptive to and is fundamentally incompatible 15
with numerous practical and technical aspects of 16
the electricity system in Mississippi and all 17

other states. 18

It is evident that the proposal is based 19
on a flawed interpretation of the Clean Air Act. 20
We therefore urge EPA to withdraw the current 21
proposal and substantially revise this rule. 22

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In the meantime, I want to highlight five 1
issues that are representative of our more 2

de tailed objections to EPA's proposal. 3
One, electricity price increases and 4
economic impacts. The rule presents a 5
significant threat to American jobs and the 6
economy by substantially increasing electricity 7
prices. These increases will place a heavy 8

burden on business in Mississippi and across the 9
United States, for which affordable energy 10
provides a critical operating advantage in 11
competitive global markets. 12

Two, rule structure and scope. EPA has 13
provided little or no information regarding what 14
authority i t's relying on to institute such an 15
expansive regulatory regime and how it intends to 16
proceed if it is not approved in individual 17
states' implementation plan s

. 18
Three, technological achievability. EPA 19
has asserted that each of the individual targets 20
assign ed to states under the proposal are based 21
on reasonably achievable rather than maximum 22

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performance levels. 1

MMA is concerned that, as with its 2
proposed rule for new power plants, EPA is basing 3
enormously impactful mandates on technological or 4

technology ass umptions that have yet to be 5

demonstrated as achievable at a reasonable cost, 6
and in some cases achievable at any cost. 7

Four, follow

- on regulations. Since the 8
agency is committed to a number of follow

- on 9
rules, MMA members will be impacted twice, both 10

as electricity customers and also as industries 11
next in line for subsequent rules that EPA has 12
committed to pursuing. 13
The substance process and ultimate 14
outcome of the initial proposed regulations on 15
power plants are certain to influence the 16
regulations that will be subsequently proposed. 17
Five, process and timelines. 18
Stakeholders continue to struggle to interpret 19

and react to the rule's more than 1,600 pages of 20
highly technical materials that the agency has 21
scheduled public hearings in only four locations. 22

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I t has also provided few, if any, opportunities 1
for stakeholders to publicly ask the agency 2
direct questions regarding the rule. 3
A regulation as complex and as far

4
reaching as the one proposed must be prioritized 5

at robust, inclusive rule

- making process ove r 6
meeting arbitrary and rushed deadlines. MMA 7
recognizes that addressing each of these 8
significant issues will require substantial time 9

and effort of the EPA, states, and the 10

stakeholders alike. 11
However, as a first step, we respectfully 12

ask the EPA to tak e two critical actions to 13
enhance the public involvement process associated 14
with this rule. One, we request the EPA hold 15
additional public hearings on the rule in order 16
to enable a greater number of citizens and 17
stakeholders representing a broader range o f 18
viewpoints and geographic locations to provide 19
input on the rule. 20
Further, and perhaps more important, we 21
ask that at least some component of these public 22

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meetings be interactive so impacted stakeholders 1
can ask EPA direct questions regarding the intent 2
and implications of its proposed rule. 3

But we request the EPA extend the 4

currently planned 120

- day comment period by at 5

least 60 days to ensure that affected 6

stakeholders have sufficient time to assess the 7
rule and consider feedback provided at the 8

forthco ming public hearings. 9
Thank you again for the opportunity to 10
provide these comments. We look forward to 11
working cooperatively with EPA to ensure that the 12
proposed regulation addresses these critical 13

issues. 14
Thank you so much for the opportunity to 15

be here

. 16

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Moon. 17
Thank you for your testimony. 18
Mr. Manning. 19
MR. MANNING: I'm Robert Manning on 20
behalf of the Florida Electric Power Coordinating 21

Group. 22

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Good morning. My name is Robert Manning. 1
I'm an attorney with Hopping Green and Sams, an 2

environmental law firm in Tallahassee, Florida. 3
MR. THOMPSON: I'm sorry, sir. Could you 4

spell your name for the court reporter, for the 5

record? 6

MR. MANNING: M

- a

- n

- n

- i

- n

- g. 7

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. 8

MR. MANNING: And I serve as counsel to 9

the F lorida Electric Power Coordinating Group on 10
air regulatory matters and providing comments 11
today on their behalf. 12

The 29 members of the FCG generate nearly 13
all of the power for Florida's nearly 20 million 14
residents. The FCG will be submitting more 15

extensiv e and detailed comments by the deadline. 16

As an initial matter, Florida utilities 17
have made substantial progress over the last 18
decade in reducing CO2. Specifically, we've 19

reduced the pound

- per

- megawatt hour by nearly 20 20
percent since 2005, the tons per yea r by nearly 21
12 percent, and all the while increasing the 22

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overall statewide generation by 12 percent. 1
The FCG is very concerned that EPA is not 2
providing sufficient time to review and comment 3
on its proposals, which are comprised of two 4
major components

-- one for existing units and 5

one for reconstructed and modified units. 6
Although EPA is providing 120 days, the 7
complexity of the proposal and the current lack 8
of supporting documentation that EPA has provided 9

results in the need for additional time in which 10
to evaluate the proposals and develop meaningful 11

comments. 12
Evaluation of the proposed emission rate 13
goals for Florida and their building

- block 14
components requires extensive analysis of the 15
state's generation and transmission systems, and 16

their associated c apabilities and limitations. 17
A thorough review of EPA's analysis 18
requires months rather than weeks. Accordingly, 19
we request that EPA provide an additional 90 days 20

in which to evaluate and comment on these 21

proposals. 22

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The FCG has numerous legal, regulatory, 1
and technical concerns regarding EPA's proposal. 2
And I will highlight a few, particularly as they 3

relate to Florida. 4
The proposed 111(d) proposal is complex, 5
difficult to understand, difficult to analyze, 6
and it will be difficult to implement if 7

finalize d in anything like its current form. In 8
the proposal, EPA is asserting new, undetermined 9
authority to dictate how generation is 10
dispatched, the amount of renewable resources to 11

be built
, and demand

- side management of 12
electricity use. 13
These guidelines and the subsequent 14

state

- developed standards for stationary sources 15

under Section 111 of the Clean Air Act should 16
begin and end with the regulated source itself. 17
An NSPS or existing source guideline must apply 18

to individual sources, must be based on 19

reduction s that an individual source can achieve, 20
and must be based on the use of a system that is 21
incorporated into the design of the source. 22

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Of the four building blocks that EPA 1
proposes as part of its system of an emission 2
reduction, under its option 1 approach, only the 3
first building block can be applied by individual 4

sources. The other three measures are out of the 5
control of any particular regulated source and 6
are predicated on actions by others. This is 7
inconsistent with EPA's obligations under the 8

Clean A ir Act. 9

Further, if a state does not submit an 10
approvable plan, EPA has no authority to 11
promulgate a federal plan that includes the 12
measures that it is requiring of states. EPA 13
cannot develop and impose a federally enforceable 14

energy resource development and dispatch program 15
upon a particular state or group of states. 16
The FCG is also very concerned with EPA's 17
use of a 2012 baseline year. EPA proposes to 18
require Florida utilities to reduce their average 19
CO2 emission rate by an additional 38 percent 20

from 20 12 to 2030 and provides no consideration 21
for the substantial reductions already achieved. 22

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EPA fails to consider this progress and 1
instead is proposing additional reduction in 2
emissions that likely cannot be achieved. In 3

fact, the 2020

- to

- 2029 ten

- year ave rage interim 4
goal is at a level that requires emissions to 5
decrease dramatically in only the next few years, 6
perhaps making it more aggressive than the 2030 7

goal. 8
Regarding the implementation, the 9
flexibility EPA touts is an illusion. EPA set 10

each state's goal assuming that each state 11
completely adopts all four building blocks. In 12
Florida, we're concerned that each building block 13
alone is unachievable, meaning that there's no 14
margin to make up under one building block the 15
amount to which we may have falle n short on 16
another. Absent this ability, Florida cannot 17

meet EPA's goal. 18
Aside from the legal and regulatory 19
issues associated with the building blocks, there 20
are serious technical and practical issues as 21
well. The 6 percent heat rate improvement is 22

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unac hievable. In order to produce electricity as 1
efficiently, reliably, and cost

- effectively as 2
possible, utilities have already undertaken 3
measures to optimize the efficiency. 4

I'll turn in this document. 5

MR. THOMPSON: Sure. 6

MR. MANNING: But in sum, Florida 7
utilities have substantially decreased CO2 8

emissions over the last decade. EPA's current 9
proposals to mandate further reductions are both 10

unreasonable and unlawful. 11

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. 12
MR. MANNING: Would you like me to hand 13
this to your or give it to the desk? 14
MR. THOMPSON: Actually, submit it to the 15

folks out front, formally. 16

MR. MANNING: Okay. 17
MR. THOMPSON: Are there any questions 18
for either of the gentlemen? 19
[No audible response.] 20
MR. THOMPSON: There are no questions. 21

Well, gentlemen, thank yo u both very much 22

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for your testimony today. 1
[Chorus of "Thank you."] 2

MR. THOMPSON: Absolutely. Thank you. 3

[Pause.] 4

MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 5
Becky Rafter and Chris Carnevale. 6

[Pause.] 7
MR. THOMPSON: Good morning. 8
MS. RAFTER: Good morning, ge ntlemen. 9

How are you? 10
MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us. 11
Great, how are you this morning? 12

MS. RAFTER: I'm good, thanks. 13

MR. THOMPSON: Good. 14

MS. RAFTER: I am Becky, Becky Rafter, 15
with the Georgia Women's Action for New 16
Directions, Georgia WAND. 17

MR. THOMPSON: One moment, Becky. 18
Good morning, sir. 19
MR. CARNEVALE: Good morning. 20
MR. THOMPSON: And, Becky, while we get 21
this squared away, I'd like for you to state and 22

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spell your name for the court reporter. And then 1
you can begin your testimony. 2

MS. RAFT ER: Sure. It's B

- e

- c

- k

- y R

- a

- f 3

as in Frank, t

- e

- r. 4
MR. THOMPSON: Please begin. 5

MS. RAFTER: I'm with Georgia Women's 6

Action for New Directions. We're a statewide 7
organization representing thousands of people 8

across the state. And we also are a 501(c)( 3) 9
and 501(c)(4) organization. 10
I'm here mainly representing the people, 11
our members, who are living downwind and 12

downstream of nuclear power and nuclear weapons 13
plants here in the Southeast, a nd also our 14
concern about the plants that are being 15

constructed currently in the Southeast, mainly 16

Plant Vogtle and VC Summer, although some of my 17
points have to do with Watts Bar. 18
I do, before I begin with my suggestions, 19

want to offer kudos to the President and to the 20
EPA for your leadership on addressing climate 21

cha nge. And I know a lot of expertise and hard 22

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work have gone into this proposed ruling. And we 1

are excited about it. 2
However, we do have some suggestions for 3
ways that it could be improved, based on our 4
perspective and the work that we're doing with 5

the pe ople we're working with. 6

And with that, some areas of the 7
proposal, of course, like I just said, we think 8
could be strengthened. I'm going to focus mainly 9
on the section regarding nuclear power and how 10
the proposed ruling seems to demonstrate that 11

nuclear power is an essential element of our 12
grid. And we'd like to propose that that is 13
dangerous and not in the interests of the EPA or 14
the people that we are all representing. 15
First, it, of course, by supporting 16
existing

-- by wanting to expand the nuclear 17

in dustry by wanting to subsidize existing 18

reactors and also preserve reactors that are 19
going to be

-- retrofit the reactors that are 20
going to be nearing their life cycles, which a 21

lot of them are going to be nearing the end of 22

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their life cycle in the coming years, not to 1

mention the several before 2020. 2

We all know that with the bathtub effect, 3
the most dangerous times of nuclear reactors are 4
at the beginning of their life cycle and the end 5
of their life cycle, when they're most likely to 6

have a meltdown. An d this is concerning to the 7
people that live not only within the 10

- and 15

- 8

mile radius of these sites, but also the water 9
that is providing cooling for those sites affects 10
millions of people downwind and downstream and 11
along the rivers. 12

Also, it undermine s the growth of the 13
renewable energy sector, including solar and wind 14
energy. And also, if nuclear is a part of state 15

cap

- and

- trade programs, then being able to sort 16

of trade those with coal

- fired plants would also 17

undermine the imminent closure of coal

- f ired 18

plants. 19
In regards to addressing climate change, 20
what we believe is that while the proposed ruling 21
would address climate change, it also doesn't 22

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take into consideration the effect of climate 1

change on the nuclear reactors themselves. And 2

so, that's

- - we think is a big miss. And one of 3

the main

-- of course, one of the main issues 4

there is water. 5

And so, if water is used to cool the 6
reactors, and you've got warming waters, warming 7
rivers, mainly, for our concerns around the Plant 8
Vogtle, specifically , and the Sav annah River is 9
getting warmer. 10
And it's also recently been moved from 11
the fourth most polluted river to the third most 12
polluted river in the country. And so you have a 13
river that's full of heavy metals and other 14
pollutants that's going into t he reactors and is 15

-- has been found to have a strain on the intake 16
valves in Plant Vogtle. 17
Is that me, that yellow thing? 18

MR. THOMPSON: Yeah, yeah. That's you. 19
MS. RAFTER: Well, you're going to have 20
to just bear with me. 21

So, water is an issue. And als o the 22

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water that's contaminated with radiological 1
contaminants from nuclear sites affects not only 2
the drinking water and the ecosystem
, but also 3
the agriculture. 4

And so, with Plant Vogtle coming online, 5
if they have

-- if units 3 and 4 come online, 6

we 've already taken 75 million gallons per day of 7
water. If we end up bringing in those two new 8
units online, we're taking in 125 million gallons 9
per day. Some of that is returned to the river, 10
albeit thermonuclearly hot. 11
But what we're looking at is a water 12

d ictatorship. And two

- thirds of the water in 13
that area are going to be owned by the utility 14
company. And so, if we don't have farmers being 15
able to use irrigation for their crops, then 16
that's going to cause a lot of local issues. 17
Okay. So, now it's red. 18
[Laughter.] 19
MR. THOMPSON: It will beep when your 20
time is up. Well, it just did. 21
[Laughter.] 22

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MS. RAFTER: Anyway, so that's all I've 1

got to say, plus a lot more. And I'm glad that 2
you all took the time to listen to my testimony 3

today. 4

MR. THOMPSON: And you can submit

-- I 5
was about to say you can submit those in writing. 6
Anything that you didn't get to, please submit 7

out front before you leave. 8
MS. RAFTER: All right. Thank you for 9
listening. 10

MR. THOMPSON: You're welcome. 11
All right. Mr. Carnevale. 12

MR . CARNEVALE: Thank you. Good morning. 13
My name is Chris Carnevale. That's C

- h

- r

- i

- s C

14

a

- r

- n

- e

- v

- a

- l

- e. 15

And I work for the Southern Alliance for 16

Clean Energy. I'm from Charleston, South 17
Carolina. And I'm here today speaking in support 18
of placing limits on carbon pollution from power 19
plants in order to protect treasured places like 20

Charleston and other coastal communities in the 21

Southeast. 22

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Charleston is a place of significant 1
cultural and historical heritage. But the 2
impacts of climate change such as se a level rise 3
and ocean acidification threaten our way of life 4
and our connection to past generations. 5
Charleston has held the designation of 6

the b est city to visit in the U.S. by both Conde 7
Nast and Travel and Leisure magazines for the 8

last several years. And if you have visited 9
Charleston, you know why. You know that if the 10
walls of the buildings could speak, they could 11
tell you stories spanning hundreds of years. 12
The walls of the Powder Magazine on 13

Cumberland Street would tell you about the 14
original for tification of Charles Town and 15

battles between the South Carolinian Colonists 16
and Native Americans, French, and Spanish, and 17
later fighting a war for independence. 18
Those of the grand mansions south of 19
Broad Street would speak of the immense wealth 20

generate d by King Cotton
, while the Emanuel AME 21

Church on Calhoun Street would speak about the 22

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slave rebellion plotted by one of the church's 1

founder s

. 2

Fort Sumter's ramparts would talk about 3
the first shots of the Civil War, fired right 4

there in the Charleston Ha rbor, while the County 5
Courthouse would tell the story of hosting the 6
first court case to desegregate public schools in 7

America. 8

Yet these monuments which serve as a 9
tangible link to our past are immensely 10
vulnerable to flooding from sea level rise. All 11

o f these places are at less than 10 feet above 12

sea level rise, and some are as low as 3. 13

Meanwhile, the National Oceanic and 14
Atmospheric Administration projects as much as 15
6.6 feet of global sea level rise over the course 16
of this century alone. Not only wo uld this mean 17
losing many national treasures like these, but it 18
would also mean losing much of the backbone of 19

Charleston's current economy. 20
Visitors come here to participate in our 21
rich history, whether by visiting national 22

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historic monuments or simply ta king in the 1
ambiance while strolling down our cobblestone 2

streets. 3
But it's not just the built environment 4
that gives Charleston its quintessentially 5
Southern charm and deep sense of history. 6
Charleston would not be complete without its 7

natural beauty as well. Southern live oaks 8
draped in Spanish moss are an icon of the South 9
and are abundant here, lining the driveways of 10
historic plantations and Sea Island boulevards. 11

Some were here well before Europeans even 12

arrived. 13

The angel oak on John's Island, for 14
example, is thought to be as old as 1,500 years. 15
And not only is it supposed to have hosted 16

ceremonies for Creek Indian tribes, but it's also 17
served as a place of refuge and recreation for 18
families for generations. 19
Yet these live oaks may become threaten ed 20
as saltwater encroaches upon their root zones due 21
to sea level rise, particularly alongside tidal 22

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sources of water such as those so abundant in the 1

low country. 2

Furthermore, saltwater marshes are home 3
to all sorts of valuable aquatic creatures, 4

includin g those that have formed the basis of the 5
low country's food traditions for many, many 6

years

-- shrimp and grits, she

- crab soup, and 7

oysters, to name a few. 8
Yet these creatures are in peril from the 9
impacts of climate change. Saltwater intrusion, 10

combined with drought, has raised salinity levels 11
in our marshes enough to begin killing our marsh 12
grasses, which provide necessary habitat for many 13
of our heritage sea food, while ocean 14
acidification from excess atmospheric carbon 15
compounds the risk. 16

As you can g ather from what I'm saying, 17
Charleston is a place overflowing with rich 18
history and culture rooted in the built 19
environment, natural landscape, and culinary 20
traditions. Yet these things, which serve as 21
critical links to our past, for our enjoyment in 22

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the present, and means of prosperity in the 1

future, are threatened by carbon

- fueled climate 2

change. 3

Charleston and South Carolina are not 4

alone in facing these threats. Many coastal 5
cities in the Southeast, such as Wilmington, 6
Savannah, Miami, and Tampa, have completely 7
unique cultural and environmental assets that 8
have persisted for centuries, yet are now 9
jeopardized by catastrophic impacts from climate 10

change. 11
I personally would like to continue to 12
enjoy these treasures for the rest of my life, 13

and I'd like for future generations to enjoy them 14
as much as our generation has. It's for this 15
reason that I wish to express great support for 16
limiting carbon pollution from power plants. 17

Thank you. 18

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for your 19
testimony. 20
Are there questions? 21

[No audible response.] 22

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MR. HUTSON: I just agree with him, 1
everything he said about Charleston. 2
[Laughter.] 3

MR. CARNEVALE: You've visited, haven't 4

you? 5

MR. HUTSON: It's a great place, yeah. 6
[Laughter.] 7

MR. THOMPSON: Well, thank you both for 8
your testimony today. 9

MR. CARNEVALE: Thank you. 10

MS. RAFTER: Thank you. 11

MR. THOMPSON: You're welcome. 12

[Pause.] 13

MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are Jay 14

Hakes and Charles B. Jones, III. 15
Good morning, gentlemen. 16
[Chorus of "Good morning."] 17

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for joining us 18

today. 19
I'd like to begin with Mr. Hakes. Just 20

state and spell your name for the court reporter, 21
and then begin testimony, sir. 22

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MR. HAKES: My name is Jay Hakes, J

- a

- y 1

H

- a

- k

- e

- s. 2
I am the former Energy Director of the 3

State of Florida, former Ad ministrator of the 4
U.S. Energy Information Administration. I have 5

written a book and numerous articles on U.S. 6
energy policy. And I have testified before 7
Congress 26 times on energy issues, including the 8
impacts of climate policy on the economy and 9

elect ric rates. 10
To start, I would like to say that we're 11
not rushing into this issue, as some have 12

asserted. 13
The National Academy of Sciences reached 14
its first consensus study in the late 1970s that 15
human activities were causing the rise in surface 16

temperatures around the world, the melting of 17
polar ice caps, and dehydration of soils in 18
regions around the world. And yet, here we are 19
35 years later, still dumping carbon dioxide into 20
the atmosphere without regulation. 21
The Supreme Court of the United States, 22

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in th e Massachusetts vs. EPA case of 2007 1
mandated the agency to deal with climate change 2
under the 1970 Clean Air Act Amendment. Again, 3
some are arguing that the agency has exceeded its 4
authority. Its authority in this area is 5
exceedingly clear. The court h as not waffled on 6

this. 7
Second, the rules, in my opinion, have 8
been very carefully crafted in an attempt to 9
achieve significant reductions in carbon dioxide 10
emissions at the least cost possible. EPA has 11
done this by establishing the 2005 base line for 12

the overall goal at the time when carbon 13
emissions peaked. It allows a very long 14
implementation period, and it allows great 15
flexibility for selecting the best options. 16
In my opinion, we need efficiency at coal 17
plants. We need switching to natural gas. We 18

n eed energy efficiency, and in my opinion, we 19
will also need the nuclear option. 20
Third, the timing on this rule is 21
fortuitous. Natural gas supplies are ample and 22

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cheap. Having been involved in the energy 1
production business for a long part of my life, I 2

f eel that that is going to continue for the 3
foreseeable future, making compliance with this 4
rule relatively easy, or easier than we would 5

have thought a few years ago. 6
I would also urge people to visit the 7
Home Depot, an Atlanta corporation, and look when 8

y ou walk in at the LED lights, which are now 9

about half of what they cost a year ago. And 10

notice that dishwashers and clothes driers now 11

have direct

- drive motors, as do some of the 12
ceiling fans options. These direct

- drive motors, 13
in many cases, are produc ing efficiency gains of 14

70 percent. 15
I feel that some of this new technology, 16
because it's happening so rapidly, is not 17
reflected in the EPA analysis. And the 18
government projections with which I'm familiar 19

with

-- I used to do them

-- do have several 20

flaws , one of which is they don't incorporate 21
federal rulemaking on appliance efficiency beyond 22

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scheduled rules. These rules will undoubtedly 1
occur, and they're going to make the compliance 2
on this easier than a lot of people think. 3

I would urge EPA not to aba ndon the 1.5 4
per annum goal for efficiency. I think that is a 5
very achievable goal. I wrote about auto 6
efficiency standards before they were adopted, 7

and urged a goal that they pretty well adopted. 8
And it's been pretty easy for the market to 9

accommodate that. 10

Fourth, I have some advice on state 11
plans. I think this will be a learning 12
experience for all concerned. The State of 13
Georgia has had problems under the IRP. It has 14
quite anemic appliance efficiency programs. On 15

the other hand, this state does h ave pretty good 16
building codes, and thermal efficiency programs 17
run by Georgia Power offer good value for dollar. 18

I think that the Federal Government can 19
help by continuing DOE rulemaking on appliances 20
and lighting. And I do think that EPA needs to 21

take a look at the Energy Star program. The 22

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Energy Star program is used in Georgia as sort of 1
the label that triggers the incentive program. 2
The Energy Star program is not always up to date. 3

There need to be more resources devoted to that. 4

And I think all si des of the argument should 5

agree. 6
I'd like to express my disappointment 7

with some of the misinformation about this rule 8
being spread, much of it by Georgia public 9
officials. One high

- ranking energy official in 10

the state made the claim that coal not consum ed 11
in the United States is simply exported and used 12

elsewhere. 13

It would have taken about 30 seconds of 14

fact

- checking to determine that that's not true. 15
And yet I'm sure it will continue to be repeated 16
over and over again in the coming years. 17

Unfortunatel y, this error is not an isolated 18
case, and I call on all Georgia officials to be 19

more accurate in their comments about this rule. 20

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Hakes. 21
Thank you for your testimony. 22

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Mr. Jones. 1
MR. JONES: Yeah, good morning. My name 2

is Cha rles Jones. C

- h

- a

- r

- l

- e

- s J

- o

- n

- e

- s. I go 3

by "Clay." That's C

- l

- a

- y. 4
I'm with the Georgia Association of 5

Manufacturers. I'm the Vice President and 6

General Counsel. Thank you for the opportunity 7
to speak this morning. 8
We represent the interests of Geor gia 9
manufacturers in legislative and regulatory 10

matters. Our association was founded in 1900 11
with roots in the textile industry. 12

Now we serve as the voice of all 13
manufacturing industries in our state, with 14
members from the textile and carbon industry, but 15
also in other industries such as agricultural 16
equipment, steel and other metals, packaging 17
supplies, pharmaceuticals, medical sutures, geo

18
synthetics, refrigeration, and other industrial 19
equipment, and a host of other industries. 20
I want to begin by thanki ng the EPA for 21
providing this opportunity to share our concerns. 22

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I also want to emphasize the importance of 1

environmental stewardship to our membership. 2
We have a very active environmental 3
quality committee with volunteers from our member 4
companies, who m eet regularly to discuss and 5

share information about the latest in 6
environmental compliance, environmental 7

excellence. 8
Many of our companies are nationally 9
recognized and awarded for their sustainability 10
efforts, including reducing energy usage, 11
limiting t heir water consumption, reducing 12
landfill usage, and other pro

- environmental 13

achievements. We support a clean environment and 14
responsible policies that promote environmental 15
protection and industry growth. 16

The proposed rule, however, presents a 17

number of concerns for manufacturers, and really 18
for all consumers of electricity. Manufacturers 19
in particular tend to be higher energy users. 20
Energy costs are a substantial cost for 21
manufacturers, nearing and sometimes even 22

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surpassing labor costs. 1

Energy costs ar e often one of the 2
determining factors in where a manufacturer 3
locates, whether it expands, and whether it 4
continues operations at all in some instances. 5
One of the significant factors that has 6
led to the return of manufacturing investment to 7

our country, or re

- shoring as people call it, has 8
been our relatively lower energy costs in this 9

country. 10
The importance of energy costs to 11
manufacturing in the retention of those jobs 12

cannot be overstated. So we urge you to be 13
especially careful not to adopt rules th at impose 14

unreasonable cost burdens on utilities. 15
Ultimately, we all know who pays the price for 16
that. It will be the consumer, even though the 17
initial impact will be felt by those utilities. 18
And our association is very involved in 19
the ratemaking process here in Georgia. So I can 20
tell you that that is absolutely the truth. 21

Given the shortness of time, I want to 22

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focus just on two areas of concern. The first is 1

that we're concerned that the EPA's targeted 2
reduction for Georgia, a 48 percent reduction in 3

C O2 emissions from 2012 to 2030, could force 4
Georgia's electric utilities to make a series of 5
uneconomic choices regarding which resources to 6
construct and to dispatch. 7
Georgia and its rate

- paying consumers 8
have benefited from a diverse portfolio of 9

generat ion resources and a dispatch model that 10

utilizes the lowest

- cost resource available. 11
Indeed, Georgia has already significantly reduced 12
its reliance in the last several years on coal, 13
and subsequently, its CO2 emissions. 14

But the rule could force utilities to 15
artificially increase the amount of natural gas 16
called upon, which could result in an over

17
reliance on a single fuel, less reliability, and 18
higher prices for all consumers. 19

The second issue we have a concern with, 20
of the ones I'm going to discuss today, is the 21
treatment of Plant Vogtle and how it's 22

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considered. As you know, and from previous 1
speakers, Plant Vogtle is undergoing the 2

construction of two new nuclear reactors, units 3 3

and 4. 4
Georgia rate

- payers, including 5
manufacturers, have been paying the financing 6
costs already for this construction, which is, I 7

think, due now to come online in 2017 and 2018. 8
And they will be responsible for the substantial 9

end

- service cost once those units become 10
operational. 11
Vogtle 3 and 4 is a major investment in 12

Georg ia's future. And it will contribute to 13

lower CO2 emissions. However, as we understand 14
the rule, it penalizes Georgia for that decision 15
by using the fact that Vogtle 3 and 4 will lower 16
CO2 emissions to justify a higher emissions 17
reduction target. 18

This ess entially gives Georgia no credit 19
for the construction of Vogtle 3 and 4 when it 20
comes to CO2 emissions, and we'd ask you to be 21

very careful about that. 22

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A healthy manufacturing base creates 1
wealth, jobs, and opportunities. Manufacturing 2
jobs pay higher wag es and provide better benefits 3
than the average job. And manufacturing produces 4
a significant multiplier effect not seen in most 5
other sectors of the economy, resulting in 6
additional supporting industries and supporting 7
service economy jobs. 8

So we ask you to please consider the 9
importance of this economic recovery we're in, 10

the re

- shoring of manufacturing to our nation, 11
and to remember that the costs imposed by this 12
rule will ultimately fall on the backs on 13
consumers, including on industries that are faced 14
with increasing costs and intense international 15
competition. 16
So we urge you to be careful in your 17
adoption of the rule and reject any unreasonable 18

cost that would threaten the health of our 19
manufacturing base. 20

Thank you. 21

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Jone s. 22

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Are there any questions for Mr. Hakes and 1

Mr. Jones? 2
[No audible response.] 3

MR. THOMPSON: And are you gentlemen 4
planning to submit written comments as well? 5
MR. HAKES: I will also put more expanded 6

comments, yes. 7

MR. JONES: In October, yes. 8

MR. THOM PSON: Thank you very much. 9

MR. JONES: Thank you. Thank you for the 10
opportunity. 11

MR. THOMPSON: Absolutely. 12

[Pause.] 13

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Our next speakers 14
are Brion Fitzpatrick and Martin McConaughy. 15

[Pause.] 16
MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen. 17

Th anks for joining us. 18
I'd like to start with Mr. Fitzpatrick. 19

If you could state and spell your name for the 20
court reporter, and then begin testimony. 21

MR. FITZPATRICK: Yes. Hello. My name 22

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is Brion Fitzpatrick. That name is spelled like, 1

Brian, B

- r

- i

- o

- n. Last name Fitzpatrick, F

- i

- t

2

z

- p

- a

- t

- r

- i

- c

- k. 3
I'm here today to represent the Georgia 4
Solar Energy Association, which I refer to as 5
Georgia Solar. And I'm Vice Chairman of Georgia 6

Solar. 7

I also work as the Director of Business 8

Development for Inman So lar, a Georgia

- based 9
solar project development and installation 10
company, a position I have held for six years. 11
Georgia has made great strides over the 12
past two years in the development of its solar 13

resources. In 2012, the state had less than 20 14

megawatts of solar energy in production. And 15
today, Georgia's producing more than 100 16
megawatts of solar energy, a number that is 17
growing every day. 18
With the visionary encouragement of the 19
Georgia Public Service Commission, and Georgia 20

Power's Advance Solar Initiat ive, the ASI, in 21
cooperation with Georgia's solar industry 22

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professionals, this rapid deployment of solar 1
energy infrastructure has been possible without 2

any upward pressure on rates. 3
The best news of all is that Georgia's 4
vast potential for solar energy pr oduction, rated 5
among the nation's best by the National Renewable 6
Energy Laboratory, remains largely untapped. 7
Hundreds of firms throughout the state 8
are engaged in the solar energy market, and that 9
number doesn't count the many professionals whose 10

skills are important to successful solar 11
development. And these professionals are 12
creating long

- term investment and improving 13
productivity throughout the state. 14
Since the inception of the Georgia 15

Power's ASI program, the largest voluntary 16
program in the nation, Georgia is on track to add 17
735 megawatts of solar generation within a 36

- 18
month period. Since it was approved in November 19
of 2012 and then launched in 2013, the Georgia 20
Power ASI has prompted a significant increase in 21
the number of solar jobs and firms inv olved in 22

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this market sector. 1
Most of those professionals belong to our 2
organization, Georgia Solar, which strives to 3
educate Georgia homeowners, policy makers, and 4
the business community on the many benefits of 5

solar energy. 6
Our success is increasingly app arent as 7
our solar portfolio grows. Although most solar 8
installations have previously been located in 9
Georgia's more urban areas, like Atlanta, 10
Savannah, Macon, and Augusta, the Georgia Power 11
ASI program is now building significant economic 12
potential in t he state's more rural areas, which 13
have been hungry for this kind of local 14
investment and jobs solar projects create. 15
This year the ASI programs seek more than 16
1,200 applications, from which fewer than 200 17
projects were selected. Maps produced by local 18

so lar energy engineers show many available sites 19

for large

- scale solar development throughout the 20
state. We are also seeing an uptake of solar 21
energy projects and resources from Georgia's 41 22

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electric membership cooperatives and the 49 1
municipal electric aut horities of Georgia, which 2

serve the state's rural communities. 3
Georgia's home to many solar companies, 4
most of them locally established, that 5
manufacture solar equipment; design, locate, and 6
develop projects; install, maintain solar 7
generation sites; and invest in innovative solar 8

research and development. 9

We are prepared to meet the demands of 10
the changing energy portfolio with an 11
experienced, trained, and ready workforce. 12
Whatever opportunities occur in our market for 13
increased renewable energy resource s, we have the 14
skills, the people, and the supply chain to meet 15

it. 16
At Georgia Solar, we know and are working 17
hard to help the public understand that solar 18
energy is not a partisan issue. Consistently 19
improving technology and dramatically declining 20
prices in the elements of solar infrastructure 21
have combined to make solar energy a viable, 22

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cost

- effective resource at every economic level. 1
According to the Georgia Solar Industries 2

Association , the price of solar has fallen 60 3
percent in the last three years. Solar cost

4
competitiveness with the traditional generation 5
resource was officially recognized by Georgia 6
Power and the Georgia Public Service Commission 7
in their 2013 IRP, internal resource planning 8

process. 9

From 50 megawatt solar farms to 10

residential roo ftops, solar energy is becoming a 11
practical part of Georgia's energy portfolio, and 12

solar energy can offer the state homeowner 13
savings on their utility bills, giving business 14
owners more budget flexibility with lower energy 15
costs, improve our domestic ener gy security, and 16
ease expensive heat demand on our energy grid. 17
By improving policies at the state level 18
that reflect current market practices and the 19
benefits solar energy contributes to the grid, 20
even more savings can be produced. 21
According to a study by the Solar 22

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Foundation, Georgia experienced the highest 1
growth rate in the nation for solar jobs between 2
2012 and 2013, an astonishing 225 percent. This 3
shows how quickly we can deploy our solar 4
industry to meet the state's needs for diverse 5

energy portfol io. Solar energy can help the 6

state deploy new, renewable energy resources 7

cost

- effectively, while improving Georgia's 8
economic assets, again with no upward pressure on 9
utility rates. 10
Increasing solar energy also offers 11
Georgia the added benefit of produc ing water 12

demand for energy production, a significant and 13
growing concern in our states for our state 14
leaders. Georgia has been in negotiation with 15
its neighboring states for more than two decades 16

over water withdrawals from our shared surface 17

water resou rces. 18
Roughly half of those withdrawals go to 19
produce electricity. By shifting some of that 20
energy load to solar PV, which uses no water to 21
generate, we can ease that demand without 22

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sacrificing our economic growth potential. 1

I will leave it to the EPA and other 2
policy makers to determine the right goals for 3
Georgia in this dialog over air quality and 4
energy production. But on behalf of more than 5
1,000 solar energy professionals who live and 6
work in Georgia, I am here to reassure you that 7
Georgia is ready t o deploy its solar energy 8
resources. Solar is clean, carefully regulated, 9

cost

- effective, quickly deployed, and a proven 10

resource. 11
Thank you for the opportunity to speak on 12
behalf of the Solar Energy Association, and on 13
behalf of the professionals and con sumers who 14

stand to benefit from solar in our state. 15

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 16
Fitzpatrick. Thank you for your testimony. 17

MR. FITZPATRICK: Thank you. 18

MR. THOMPSON: Mr. McConaughy. 19
MR. McCONAUGHY: My name is Martin 20

McConaughy. That's M

- a

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- n M

- c

- C

- o

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- a

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21

h

- y. 22

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Thank you for having me here. I'm really 1
exited about this. This is really such a great 2
time for us in this country. But here's a 3
message to all the Georgia Powers, Duke Energy, 4
Con Edison, Florida Progress

-- we love your 5

prod uct. But the world is literally sick from 6
over a century of pollution from the way you 7
produce this electricity. 8
Some ask the question, how much is this 9
going to cost each consumer to clean up this 10
mess? You know, the real question should be, 11

what should it cost if we don't come clean? 12
During yesterday's testimony, a lobbyist for the 13
train industry claimed thousands of jobs will be 14
lost if we curtail coal burning. I suppose we're 15
supposed to haul this poisoned coal all over the 16
place just to keep jobs? I don't think so. 17
In 15 years, all manufactured cars will 18
be electric. The landscape of the auto industry 19
will look totally different. Things change. 20
Things progress. And they get better if we let 21
them. There's no valid arguments in my mind for 22

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conti nuing the way that we've been. 1
The EPA ruling is totally the right 2
direction we need to be going. It is a well

3

thought

- out program. In my mind, from what I 4
know, it's just like these people put a lot of 5
time into it and said, you know, "Let's do this 6
pi ece by piece, state by state. Let people make 7
decisions." It's a fabulous beginning to this 8
program. I think you need to stick to it. 9
Although the results aren't necessarily 10
well defined, states are given flexibility to 11
reach these goals in plenty of ti me. With 12
cooperation, I feel we can achieve and surpass 13
all of these expectations. 14
And I really do think that. I think what 15
you've got going here, what you've started can 16
really snowball into phenomenal growth in 17
limiting this carbon thing. And, you kno w, I 18
just think it's going to go way beyond if you 19
stick to what you've got going. 20
But the key here is cooperation. We have 21

some citizens who believe that we need a choice 22

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in how electricity is produced. Not much of an 1
argument, seeing as you have a choi ce in 2
electricity you consume. But in general, unless 3
you go to the renewables, the electric companies 4

choose how they produce. 5
We are at a point now where alternative 6
methods are finding a profitable place in the 7
electric production scheme. And things a re 8
changing, and a lot of money is to be made. 9
Yet instead of using their wealth and 10
influence from years of fossil fuel extraction to 11
buy into this future, it appears to me that many 12
are fighting this, and they're going to fight it 13

with these frivolous an d nonsense lawsuits, in 14
their TV advertising, using mothers as 15

spokespersons rather than come out and promote 16
this essential, timely, clear approach to

-- 17
cleaner approach to electric generation. 18
To me, using these maternal spokespeople 19
is like using Thoma s the Train to teach kids how 20
to smoke. My guess is that here in Georgia, that 21
if the rate structure is changed to reward 22

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efficiency and productivity, instead of rewarding 1
cost overruns and limiting competition, we would 2
have a Georgia Power and other agg ressively 3
seeking, profitable energy, instead of business 4

as usual. 5
I urge the EPA to listen passionately, to 6
stick to the numbers and direction of this ruling 7
will take us. I will say that I think detractors 8
are mostly telling worn

- out talking points, ju st 9
using

-- to try to get a rise out of what has 10

become a cult of naysayers. 11
This country has a history of leading 12

with bold moves such as this. It's time once 13
again to take this announcement that we're going 14
to clean things up and make it a reality. 15

I th ink in this hearing you can see from 16

-- I've been here yesterday and today. There's 17
an overwhelming number of people who are pushing 18

for you to do what you're mandated to do. And I 19
think the country is ready for big things. We 20

always have wanted to do b ig things. This could 21
be the biggest thing in a long time. And it 22

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could be just the beginning. 1
It's time for us to grab the power of the 2

future and as a result lead better and healthier 3

lives. 4

Thank you. 5

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. McConaughy. 6

Are ther e any questions? 7
MR. WORLEY: I have one question of Mr. 8
Fitzpatrick. 9

MR. THOMPSON: Absolutely. 10
MR. WORLEY: You mentioned a couple of 11

statis tics regarding the

-- let's see; let me 12

find it

-- the Georgia Power ASI program. 13

MR. FITZPATRICK: Yes. 14

MR. WORLE Y: And you gave a number that 15
had applied for the program, and then fewer than 16

200 were selected. 17

MR. FITZPATRICK: Correct. 18

MR. WORLEY: Was there a cap placed on 19

how many people or how many programs could be 20

selected? 21

MR. FITZPATRICK: Yes. Yes. There is a 22

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cap placed on the amount of megawatt capacity 1
that was available for the program. 2

MR. WORLEY: Okay. 3

MR. FITZPATRICK: And the number of 4
projects that got in fell into that cap. And 5
then that's what restricted it was the megawatt 6

cap on energy capa city. 7

MR. WORLEY: Okay. Thank you. 8
MR. HUTSON: And my question was for Mr. 9
McConaughy. You're here as a private citizen, or 10
are you representing

-- 11
MR. McCONAUGHY: I am a private citizen. 12
I'm a retired high school math teacher. I am 13

affiliated with the Sierra Club. And, you know, 14

I'm

-- you know, I'm affiliated with all the kids 15
I taught and all my grandchildren and everything 16

else. 17

MR. HUTSON: Okay. Thank you. 18

MR. THOMPSON: Well, gentlemen, thank you 19
both for your testimony. Yes, please submit it 20

out front for the record. Thank you very much. 21
[Chorus of "Thank you."] 22

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MR. THOMPSON: Absolutely. Yes, if 1
you'll submit it out front, at the table out 2

front, for the record. Thank you very much. 3

[Pause.] 4

MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 5

Stephe n Wingeier and James Carlson. 6

[Pause.] 7
MR. THOMPSON: Good morning. 8

MR. WINGEIER: Excellent job pronouncing 9

my name, by the way. 10
MR. THOMPSON: I'm getting better. Thank 11

you. 12
[Laughter.] 13

MR. THOMPSON: Gentlemen, thank you both 14
for joining us. 15

And, Mr. Wingeier, we'll start with you. 16
If you state your name and spell it for the court 17
reporter, and then you can begin your testimony. 18

MR. WINGEIER: Okay. 19
MR. THOMPSON: All right. 20
MR. WINGEIER: Stephen Wingeier, S

- t

- e

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21

h

- e

- n W

- i

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- e

- i

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And I'm a bo ard member of Nuclear Watch 1
South and the Lake Claire Community Land Trust. 2
I'm not here representing either of those. 3
I support this new rule as an imperfect, 4

but necessary step toward reducing the impacts of 5
climate change. These comments are directed at 6
those who deny the necessity of this step. 7
A great man once said, "All you need is 8
love." And a great woman once said, "What's love 9
got to do with it?" Simple. Each one of us in 10
this room will someday have no choice but to look 11
a child or a younger p erson whom we love in the 12
eye and answer the question, "What did you do to 13
help stop, slow down, or turn around the crisis 14
of climate change?" 15

You see, today we have the luxury of 16
pretending this crisis is not happening or it is 17

not our fault. Or it can b e indefinitely 18
postponed. Or it is just not as important as 19
getting to Hawaii or road

- tripping to the beach. 20
But if even the mildest predictions of 21

climate scientists come true, our children will 22

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inherit a world that is substantially different 1

from the on e our parents left to us

-- more 2

dangerous, less abundant. And we are going to 3
have some tough explaining to do. 4
I am no scientist. But I respect 5
scientists. I understand the rigor and care 6

behind the scientific method, and I know how to 7
weigh their con clusions. First, how many other 8

scientists have arrived at the same conclusion? 9
We all know that only a tiny splinter of the 10
scientific community disputes the reality of 11

human

- caused climate change. 12
Secondly, who funded their research? In 13

case after cas e, it turns out that most of the 14
studies disputing human

- caused climate change are 15
funded by the fossil fuel industry. 16

But scientists who earn their salaries 17
this way have children, too. And it is time for 18
them to decide whether they love their children 19

m ore than they love their salaries. Clean energy 20
has a job for each of them. 21

I understand that the livelihoods of 22

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thousands of people currently depend on coal and 1
oil and natural gas. But yesterday, across the 2
street from this building, I heard an ex

- c oal 3
miner speak, a fourth

- generation coal miner who 4
realized one day that he was not, in fact, 5
creating a better life for his kids, as he had 6

thought, but a far worse one. 7
And for those of you in this room who are 8
being paid by your employers to testify how 9

i mportant your job is for you, it is time for you 10
too to decide whether you love your children more 11
than you love your job. Clean energy has a job 12

for you, too. 13
And you corporate executives of the 14
utility companies, who may believe that your 15

wealth and pow er insulate you from the 16
consequences of burning carbon, if you love your 17
children or any younger person, you are wrong. I 18
suggest you listen in on an Alcoholics or 19
Narcotics Anonymous meeting and learn just how 20
insidious the whisper of an addiction can b e. 21
When nothing is left of the forests of 22

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Alberta but a giant toxic waste pit, and the 1
Appalachian Mountains are reduced to a level 2
field of lifeless rubble, when the groundwater of 3
this nation has been poisoned by fracking 4
chemicals from sea to shining se a, you'll be 5
still seeking out yet more destructive ways to 6
satisfy the itch for carbon. And at some point, 7
the carbon will run out anyway. 8

Now is the time to shift, while we still 9
have a planet worth inheriting. Clean energy 10
needs utility executives, to o. 11
You see, we have reached the point where 12
we all must decide exactly how much we love our 13
children, how important it is for them to inherit 14
a world where they can breathe clean air, where 15
they have drinkable water and plenty to eat, 16

where they are not fo rced to flee their homes 17

because of human

- caused drought or wildfire or 18

flood or hurricane or tornado. 19
If we do not wake up in time, if we do 20
not turn around this runaway train to worldwide 21
disaster, our children will pay. And we will 22

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have to look them in the eye and explain what 1
exactly was more important to us than their 2

future. 3

Deniers of human

- caused climate change 4
are gambling. The stakes are high. The money is 5
good. But the odds are against you. Only love 6

can save you now. 7

Thank you. 8

MR. THOMPSON : Thank you, Mr. Wingeier. 9

Mr. Carlson. 10

MR. CARLSON: James Carlson, J

- a

- m

- e

- s C

11

a

- r

- l

- s

- o

- n. 12
My name is James Carlson. I represent 13
the Alabama Department of Environmental 14
Management. The department appreciates the 15
opportunity to comment at today's proc eedings. 16

The department has three broad comments 17

on EPA's proposal. One, EPA's proposed rules to 18
regulate greenhouse emissions are tantamount to 19
setting energy policy for the United States. 20
Two, EPA is seeking to decide upon an 21
energy policy for the natio n that will have 22

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limited direct environmental impact, but dramatic 1
national economic impact. Such a policy decision 2
is appropriately reserved for the Legislative 3

Branch of the government. 4
And three, EPA is reaching far beyond its 5
historical practice and i s very likely beyond its 6
statutory authority in using measures, quote, 7
"outside the plant boundary," end quote, to 8

calculate emissions reductions states and 9

affected sources must meet. 10
In spite of representations to the 11
contrary, the greenhouse gas emissio n standards 12
proposed by EPA for the existing fleet of 13
electric generating units in Alabama, as well as 14
in many other states, are achievable only by 15
decommissioning coal

- fired EGU's and by 16
dispat ching generation to natural gas

- fired 17
capacity, regardless of the cost of generation. 18

The types and sources of fuels to 19
generate electric energy, the cost of energy, the 20
export and import of energy, the reliability of 21
the electric grid, and thus energy policy 22

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throughout the nation would be determined by the 1

EPA if th e proposed greenhouse gas emission 2
standards are implemented. 3
Regarding whether Congress or EPA should 4
set energy policy, the Alabama Department of 5
Environmental Management concurs with the 6

statement in the June 23rd, 2014, United States 7

Supreme Court gree nhouse gas ruling opinion that 8
the justices "expect Congress to speak clearly if 9
it wishes to assign to an agency decisions of 10
vast economic and political significance," end 11

quote. 12

EPA has stated that the reduction in 13
greenhouse gas emissions in the United States 14
will be negligible compared to worldwide 15
emissions and that the effort is essentially 16
symbolic. If the United States is to offer a 17

low

- impact symbolic greenhouse gas reduction 18
program, hoping to spark similar actions 19
worldwide while incurring vast economic 20
consequences, ADEM believes Congress is the 21
appropriate institution to do so. 22

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In past 111(d) actions and in similar 1
rulemakings in such areas as new source 2
performance standards and maximum achievable 3

control technology standards, EPA has never 4

v entured beyond tip

- of

- stack control or work 5
practices to require reductions. ADEM concludes 6
that EPA's only legal options for requiring 7
reductions from existing fossil

- fuel

- fired power 8
plants lie in these two areas. 9
Since EPA has rejected tip

- of

- stack 10

con trols such as carbon capture and sequestration 11

for these sources, EPA's only legal option lies 12
in a work practice requirement such as efficiency 13
improvements. 14

ADEM will submit more detailed comments 15

to the docket before the deadline. This 16

concludes our co mments. 17

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Carlson. 18
Are there any questions for either 19

gentlemen? 20
[No audible response.] 21

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you both very much 22

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for your testimony, and thank you for coming 1

today. 2

MR. WINDEIER: Thanks for the 3
opportunity. 4

MR. T HOMPSON: Yes, sir. 5

[Pause.] 6

MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are John 7
Myers and Seth Gunning. 8

[Pause.] 9
MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen. 10
[Chorus of "Good morning."] 11
MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us. 12
I'd like to start with Mr. Myers. Mr. 13

Myers, okay, if you'll state and spell your name 14
for the court reporter and then begin testimony. 15
MR. MYERS: Okay. Certainly. My name is 16

John Myers, M

- y

- e

- r

- s. And I'm with the 17
Tennessee Valley Authority. 18

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. 19
MR. MYERS: Good morning. My n ame is 20
John Myers, Director of Environmental Policy with 21

the Tennessee Valley Authority . We appreciate 22

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the opportunity to be among the many voices in 1
this public hearing. 2
Congress tasked TVA with promoting the 3
social and economic wellbeing of the resident s of 4
the Tennessee Valley. Reliable and affordable 5
energy, economic development, and environmental 6
stewardship are tools TVA uses to achieve this 7
mission. TVA operates the nation's largest 8
public power system serving parts of Tennessee, 9

Alabama, Mississi ppi, Kentucky, Georgia, North 10
Carolina, and Virginia, with a population of over 11
9 million people. 12
Although the region has progressed far in 13
attaining a better quality of life, many of our 14

residents and their communities are still 15
struggling economically an d have yet to recover 16
from the economic recession. It is important to 17
TVA that the proposed rule not undermine the 18

progress that has been made. 19
We are continuing to review and analyze 20
this complex rulemaking and will be providing EPA 21

detailed comments. B ut today I want to talk 22

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about building block 3, using an expanded amount 1

of less

- carbon

- intensive generating capacity. 2
It is appropriate that we deliver these 3

comments here in Atlanta because the Southeast is 4
uniquely impacted by this building block in the 5

treatment of nuclear units under construction. 6

Generation fleets across the Southeast have been 7
transitioning to supply electricity with lower 8

carbon emissions. For TVA, this has meant 9
relying more on renewable energy resources, 10

natural gas

- fired genera tion, and, importantly, 11

nuclear energy. 12
TVA is completing construction of a 13

se cond unit at its Watts Bar Nuclear Plant in 14

Tennessee. We've invested billions of dollars in 15

this carbon

- free resource. And when Watts Bar 16

unit 2 comes online in late 2015, it will be the 17
first new nuclear unit in the twenty

- first 18
century and provide nearly 10,000 gigawatt hours 19

of emission

- free generation per year. 20
Watts Bar 2 is an integral component of 21
TVA's goal to achieve a more balanced, cleaner 22

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portfolio of energy resourc es. We expected this 1
investment to give TVA a good start toward 2
complying with the carbon emission regulations. 3

Under EPA's rule, as proposed, that does not 4

happen. 5

Rather, TVA and the utilities with 6
nuclear units under construction are handicapped 7

becau se the generation for these units is used to 8
set more stringent limits on the affected fossil 9
fleets in our states. Rather than gaining 10
compliance margin under the proposed rule, 11
Tennessee, TVA, and Tennessee's compliance risks 12

are increased. That's not right, and that's poor 13
environmental policy. 14

EPA asserts that there's flexibilities 15

for states to use some, none, or all of the 16
building blocks in crafting the state plans. But 17

in states where nuclear is under construction, 18
they have no valid options to a ssuage the impact 19
of this block due to its size. Any single source 20
making this much contribution to a state's 21
reduction provides a compliance risk to the 22

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region. 1
The proposed rule effectively punishes 2
this early action in investments by ratepayers by 3

crea ting a big compliance risk. We wanted to 4
bring this to EPA's attention and very much 5
appreciate the opportunity to make these brief 6

comments. 7

Thank you. 8

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Myers. 9
Mr. Gunning. 10
MR. GUNNING: Thank you. My name is Seth 11
Gunning. My last name is G

- u

- n

- n

- i

- n

- g. I'm a 12
resident here in Georgia, and I work for the 13

Sierra Club, as well. 14
The Sierra Club has a membership of 2.4 15
million people across the country and here in 16
Georgia. We have about a little over 100,000 17

members and support ers all across the state. 18
Those are members who live in almost every 19
country in Georgia. They're customers of almost 20
every EMC, municipal electric company, and 21
Georgia Power in the state. 22

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Our farmer members and, really, all 1
farmers in Georgia, over the l ast several years, 2
both in 2007 and again in 2011 to 2012, have 3
experienced half

- a

- billion dollars in crop loss 4
from extreme weather events driven by climate 5

change caused by, as we all know, carbon 6
pollution coming from our nation's existing power 7

fleet. 8

At the same time that our farmers members 9
and Georgia farmers have experienced those 10
losses, our members who are electricity customers 11
in Georgia are seeing their rates skyrocket. In 12
2012 and 2013, Georgia Power Company requested 13

from the Public Service C ommission hundreds of 14

millions of dollars in rate increases to invest 15
in the exact infrastructure, the existing coal

16
fired power plants, that are pushing carbon 17
pollution into the atmosphere. 18
As an employee of the Sierra Club working 19
on utility and electri c issues, I've been 20

fortunate to come to know many of our members and 21
supporters who live in the communities where this 22

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infrastructure exists, and could testify to the 1
death, disease, health problems caused on a daily 2
basis for many of the families who liv e in close 3
proximity to these power plants. 4
The Clean Power Plan is a clearly legal, 5
clearly necessary first national step to cut our 6
nation's carbon pollution, to reduce our 7
electricity bills, and to drive our economy into 8

the twenty

- first century. 9

Climat e disruption is the greatest 10
challenge our generation faces. But within it is 11
a big opportunity to fuel our economy, to put 12
people to work in healthy energy jobs, and to 13
leave future generations with a safe, stable 14

climate. 15
I want to speak just a moment t o some of 16

the myths that I've, unfortunately, heard from 17
many of the electric utility members who have 18
testified, and some of the Georgia elected 19
officials over the past two days. 20
The Clean Power Plan is clearly legal. 21
The 1970 Clean Air Act, as interpret ed by the 22

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Supreme Court in both 2007 and 2014
, clearly 1
give s the EPA, you all, the authority to regulate 2
carbon pollution from existing power plants. And 3
we appreciate you doing so. 4

The Clean Power Plan does not have to 5
drive up the cost of electricity. If states 6
choose to implement compliance plans that 7
emphasize energy efficiency and clean energy, 8
like wind and solar, we fully expect, based on 9
what we've seen in the past couple of years, 10
being that those resources are finally amongst 11

the cheapest electr icity resources on the market 12
today, that the cost of electricity, electricity 13
bills for consumers could easily go down. 14
The third myth that I've heard is that 15
the Clean Power Plan has the potential to kill 16
thousands of jobs around the country. We already 17
know that the solar industry employs more 18
Americans right now than the coal industry. In 19
Georgia, 10,000 Georgians work in the energy 20
efficiency, solar, and wind industry. At the 21
same time, about 1,500 people work at Georgia 22

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coal

- fired power plants. 1

And we've only just begun to scratch the 2
surface of our potential and energy efficiency in 3
solar in the state. So it's practical to believe 4
that if the State of Georgia decides on a 5
compliance plan that emphasizes energy efficiency 6

and clean energy, we could not only drive down 7
the cost of electricity, but create tens of 8
thousands of additional jobs in Georgia. 9
So, in closing, I very much and the 10
Sierra Club supports the Clean Power Plan as a 11
first national effort to reduce carbon pollution. 12

But the fact is it's not yet enough. It does not 13

meet the demands of international climate 14

science. 15

So, we encourage EPA to go further, to 16
set targets to reduce emissions 35 percent by 17
2020 and to increase goals on energy efficiency 18

and renewable energy to help us get to that place 19
while reducing electricity bills and creating 20
jobs for Americans. 21
Thanks for your time. 22

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MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Gunning. 1

And
, Mr. Myers, thank you as well. 2
Are there questions for the gentlemen? 3
MR. WORLEY: Just a question for Mr. 4

Gunnin g. The statistics that you mention in 5
terms of the jobs in the solar energy compared to 6
the coal, is that something you are going to 7

submit to the record and the citations to that? 8

MR. GUNNING: Yes. Yes. 9
MR. WORLEY: All right. Thank you. 10

MR. THOMPSON: Nick, anything? 11

MR. HUTSON: No. Thank you. 12
MR. THOMPSON: Gentlemen, thank you again 13
for your testimony. Thank you very much. 14
At this time, we're going to take a five

15

minute break and reconvene at

-- let's say at 16

10:30. We'll reconvene in this room a t 10:30. 17

Thank you. 18

[Recess taken from 10:23 to 10:30 a.m.] 19
MR. THOMPSON: Okay, ladies and 20
gentlemen, we're going to get started here again. 21
Our next speakers are Greg Mullis and Trey Glenn

. 22

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[Pause.] 1

MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen. 2

[Chorus of "G ood morning."] 3
MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us. 4

I'd like to start with Mr. Mullis. If 5

you could state and spell your name for the court 6
reporter, and then begin your testimony, sir. 7
MR. MULLIS: Absolutely. Good morning 8
again. Thank you for this o pportunity to speak. 9
My name is Greg Mullis. I'm the Senior Vice 10

President of Tri

- County EMC in Gray, Georgia. 11
MR. THOMPSON: Okay. And spell it for 12

the court reporter. Spell your name. 13

MR. MULLIS: It's G

- r

- e

- g M

- u

- l

- l

- i

- s. 14

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. 15

M R. MULLIS: Thank you. 16
MR. THOMPSON: Begin. 17
MR. MULLIS: Good morning again. Thank 18
you for this opportunity to address you. As I've 19
said, I represent Tri

- County EMC, an electric 20
cooperative in Gray, Georgia. We provide 21

electric service to over 21,000 a ccounts in 22

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middle Georgia. We are largely residential and 1
largely a rural cooperative. 2
Like the other 900 electric cooperatives 3
in our nation, we are not for profit. We are 4
community

- based organizations that are owned and 5

governed by our member

- owners. Collectively, 6
cooperatives provide service to 4.5 million 7
Georgians and 42 million people nationwide. 8
Our responsibility is to provide our 9

member

- owners with safe, reliable, and affordable 10

power. 11
The issues I'll address today impact not 12
only the cooperativ es in Georgia, but all of 13
Georgia's electric utilities. 14

The homes and businesses we serve are 15
already struggling to make ends meet in these 16
difficult economic times. They now face the 17
possibility of higher energy bills and higher 18

costs for all goods and s ervices that they 19

purchase. 20

Under Section 111(d) of the Clean Air 21
Act, Georgia is being asked to share an unfair 22

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portion of that burden. The state's reduction 1
goals are far more stringent than other states 2

that have done far less in terms of CO2 3

reduction . Georgia is further being punished by 4

the EPA for our financial investment to build new 5

nuclear plants at Plant Vogtle. 6
Georgia had the foresight and took the 7
initiative to build one of the country's first 8
new nuclear units in decades, generation that 9

wi ll be zero

- emission. Our state's electric 10
utilities, including Tri

- County EMC, and our 11
customers will spend roughly $14 billion on these 12
two new units. But the EPA's goal for Georgia 13

does not account for this investment. And it 14
requires a 30 percent red uctions in emissions on 15
top of what we've already accomplished. 16
Under this plan, Georgia will be required 17

to make the sixth

- largest CO2 reduction. We are 18
being penalized for taking significant early 19
action. In our opinion, this is bad policy and 20

unfair t reatment. 21
Our members, particularly low

- and 22

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medium

- income households, need a break, not 1
punitive regulations that will break our economy, 2
while doing very little to impact the global 3

climate. 4
The communities we serve need to grow, 5
and they need to grow jo bs. Several communities 6
that we serve have lost significant numbers of 7
jobs, in one particular instance as much as 30 8
percent of the industrial and manufacturing job 9

base since the recession. 10
Many of those jobs were closures, but 11
many others were jobs tha t were shipped overseas. 12
These regulations and the higher energy costs 13
that they will bring will make those jobs much 14

harder to replace. 15

We are also committed to our members and 16
to our communities. Cooperatives brought 17
electricity to rural Georgia in the 1930s. That 18
same innovation that brought light to darkness 19
and dramatically improved the quality of life of 20
those residents 75 years ago led us to the 21

formation of G reen P ower EMC in 2001. 22

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This was Georgia's first utility Green

- e 1

certified renewable ener gy program. We're very 2
proud of that. And we've built on that by 3
continuing to introduce renewable resources in an 4
intelligent cost

- effective way. Our motivation 5
is not profit. It is the wellbeing of the 6

members in the communities that we serve. 7

I urge you to withdraw this proposal and 8
to work with us on a new, commonsense approach, 9

an all

- of

- the

- above energy strategy. 10
Thank you for the opportunity to speak 11

today. 12
MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Mullis. 13

Mr. Glenn. 14

MR. GLENN: Thank you. Trey Glenn, T

- r

15

e

- y G

- l

- e

- n

- n. Thank you again, and thank you 16
for the opportunity to speak to you today. 17
My name is Trey Glenn. I'm the most 18
recent past Director of the Alabama Department of 19
Environment Management, and I'm here today on 20

behalf of the Business Council of Alabama. 21

The Business Council of Alabama, which 22

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was created in 1985, is the state's foremost 1
business advocacy organization and the exclusive 2

affiliate in Alabama of the National 3

Manufacturers Association and the U.S. Chamber of 4
Commerce. Working with the Chamber of Commerce 5

Association of Alabama, the Business Council 6
represents thousands of businesses employing 1 7
million working Alabamians. 8
Our members will be significantly 9
impacted by these proposed rules. And this issue 10

has been part of our federal ag enda that has been 11
approved and voted on by our board of directors. 12
I'd like to present three comments 13
regarding the effects, negative effects of the 14

proposed rule. 15
The EPA proposal, if finalized, would 16
impose enormous costs and burdens on Alabama 17

workers and their families and would hinder our 18
global economic competitiveness. The impact will 19
be felt the deepest in states like Alabama, where 20
fossil fuels provide a significant share of our 21
electric generation. 22

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The administration's claim that energy 1

costs w ill not be impacted by this proposal ring 2

hollow to most Alabamians, who recall President 3

Obama's commitment in 2008, when he was 4
campaigning for the presidency, that under his 5
Climate Change Plan, electricity rates would 6
necessarily skyrocket. 7

The Obama p lan will undoubtedly increase 8
electricity prices, which will certainly hinder, 9
not help, economic growth. Alabama has 10
historically seen lower

- than

- average energy costs 11
in part because our state has been blessed with 12

an abundance of natural resources that can be 13
harnessed to power our homes and our businesses 14

and to make life better for our citizens. 15
Second point. EPA activists

-- EPA gave 16
activist environmental groups a special role in 17
crafting this proposal. Many of these same 18
groups, who alongside Pres ident Obama, have 19

declared a war on Alabama coal plants. Groups 20

such as the Natural Resource Defense Council, the 21

Sierra Club, and other radical environmental 22

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groups are not interested in the 16,000 Alabama 1
coal jobs and the families that are dependent 2

up on them. 3
These regulations strangle our economy 4
and our growth. And that is why Alabama leaders 5
and the majority of Alabama families oppose these 6
regulations as they are proposed now. 7

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates 8
that the Obama EPA regulations, as proposed, 9
could increase the cost to consumers by as much 10
as 30 percent. These estimates are not 11
surprising, considering the President himself 12
anticipated similar results in his commitments 13

from 2008 that I noted earlier. 14
Neither skyrocketing

-- neithe r consumers 15

nor small businesses, or our critical 16
manufacturing industry, can afford skyrocketing 17
rates, and certainly not 30 percent higher rates. 18
Thank you very much for the opportunity 19
to speak to you on behalf of the Business Council 20

of Alabama and for holding this hearing. 21

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Glenn. 22

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Are there any questions for the 1

gentlemen? 2
[No audible response.] 3
MR. THOMPSON: All right. Well, again, 4
thank you both very much for your testimony 5

today. 6

MR. GLENN: Thank you. 7

MR. MULLIS: Th ank you. 8

[Pause.] 9

MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 10
David Harman and Harvard Ayers. 11

[Pause.] 12
MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen. 13
[Chorus of "Good morning."] 14
MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us 15

today. 16
I'd like begin with Mr. Harman. Please 17

state y our name and spell it for the court 18
reporter. And then you can begin your testimony. 19
MR. HARMAN: Thank you. My name is David 20

Harman, spelled H

- a

- r

- m

- a

- n. 21
I'm a businessman of 42 years and 22

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counting. I've been a North Carolina CPA for 29 1

years. I read b ooks, and I analyze information 2
to arrive at my conclusions. My mind is open. 3

And I strongly support the EPA's proposed rules 4
to govern carbon pollution emission guidelines 5
for existing sources. 6
This proposal to begin the process of 7
reducing carbon emiss ions of the nation's 8
existing power plants is a commonsense beginning. 9
The goal to reduce the emissions by 30 percent 10
below the '05 levels is certainly achievable, and 11
in my opinion is not even a significant enough 12

reduction. But we'll take it as a start

. 13

The process allows the states to have 14
choices over how each one will achieve the goal, 15
and we think that's prudent and fair. 16
This planet has a carbon problem. It 17
really began in 1781 when James Watt patented the 18
first practical steam engine. That's whe n humans 19
began using machines to do the manual labor that 20
we needed done, and those machines just needed a 21
cheap and plentiful source of energy

-- carbon

22

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based fossil fuels. And a process was set in 1
motion that has become seemingly unstoppable. 2

For the la st 230 years, this has been the 3
paradigm. Machines can do our manual labor. The 4

earth

- provided cheap and plentiful fuel for 5
energy was needed to run the machines directly or 6
to provide electricity. The earth provided that 7
cheap and plentiful fuel in the form of fossil 8

fuel. 9

Fourth, it's the M anifest D estiny of 10

humans to take what we want and need from the 11
earth and to change the earth to suit our needs. 12
And there was a fifth step in that paradigm. 13
There seemed to be no apparent downside to 14
burning all the cheap and plentiful carbon

- based 15

energy. 16

We've known now for at least 50 years or 17

more that the last two components were always 18
wrong. There was always a downside. The slow

19
motion catastrophe of climate change began with 20
the first practical coal

- fire d steam engine that 21

seemed so brilliant at the time. 22

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And the minute the EPA proposed these 1
regulations that we're talking about back in 2
June, House Speaker John Boehner delivered his 3
response, quote, "The President's plan is nuts. 4

There's really no more succinct way to describe 5
it," end quote. But that's politics talking, not 6

science. 7

The same science and scientific method 8
that gave us penicillin and the s alt vaccine, 9

decoded DNA, flew us to the moon, gave us Teflon, 10

gave us nylon, gave us radar and lase rs, gave us 11
statin drugs, computers, the green revolution in 12
food production, deduced the Periodic Table of 13
Elements, and taught us how the continental 14
plates move over eons of time is now telling us 15
in no uncertain terms that we are accumulating 16

CO2 molec ules in the atmosphere, blocks the heat 17

of the earth f rom escaping. 18
The earth is warming. The climates are 19
changing. And the U.S. population is last out of 20
20 countries just surveyed about the beliefs that 21
human activity is responsible for climate change

. 22

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What is wrong with us? Why will we not face the 1
greatest geophysical threat to humanity in 2
history openly and honestly? 3
Well, it's because people who profit from 4
perpetuating our energy system just as it is into 5
the future have politicized and obfuscat ed the 6
issues, and great numbers of Americans have 7
concluded that science must somehow just be wrong 8
about this topic. 9
A tiny vocal minority of humans is making 10
more money than kings on earth, while the earth 11
is dying from their profits and dying before ou r 12

eyes. And our so

- called elected representatives 13
are shamelessly taking money for their votes in 14
the biggest conflict

- of

- interest and vote

- buying 15
in human history, and it's legal. 16

The EPA and our Congress must stand up to 17
this vocal minority and stop del aying the 18
absolutely necessary process of moving away from 19
fossil fuels. This corrupt process puts my 20
granddaughters and their children in danger, and 21
it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong. 22

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If we're not going to give up our energy

1
rich lifestyles, and if the rest of the world 2

wants the same energy

- rich lifestyles we have, 3
and if the energy sources presently in use are 4
killing the planet, then the inescapable 5
conclusion is that we must promote energy 6
efficiency and conservation. 7

And we must get our energy from sources 8
that will not kill the planet

-- namely, 9

renewables. And we must enact a revenue

- neutral 10
carbon tax to hasten the move away from fossil 11

fuels. 12
And I appreciate your giving me five 13
minutes to speak on the record. This is what I 14
think democracy lo oks like. 15

Thank you. 16

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Harman. 17

Thank you. 18

Mr. Ayers. 19
MR. AYERS: Thank you, sir. I do 20
appreciate ya'll giving us this time to say what 21
we think about things. And at risk of expressing 22

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my perspective, I would say that coal ha s 1

declared a war on the earth. 2

MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Ayers, could you

-- 3
again, I'm sorry for the interruption

-- state 4

and spell your name for the record? 5
MR. AYERS: I'm sorry. Yes, sir. I'm 6
sorry. I should have said that first. Harvard 7

Ayers, A

- y

- e

- r

- s

. 8
So, my name is Dr. Harvard Ayers, 9
recently retired Professor Emeritus of 10
Anthropology at Appalachian State University in 11

Boone, North Carolina. I am delighted to support 12
President Obama's rule to lower carbon pollution 13
from existing stationary sources. And in fact, 14
it is the first step on a major journey to the 15

elimination of fossil fuel combustion. 16
Considering that most carbon emissions 17
causing climate change in the world come from 18
fossil fuels that are burned in such stationary 19

sources are in the tran sportation sector, 20
President Obama has now taken significant actions 21
to begin the long journey in both of these U.S. 22

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sectors. 1

The 2009 actions will raise fuel 2
standards to 35.5 miles per gallon by 2016 for 3
automobiles and light trucks, and another more 4

rec ent action raising the numbers to 54.5 miles 5
per gallon by 2025. New regulations for large 6
trucks will increase their miles per gallon by 7

about 20 percent. 8
The proposed current stationary source 9
rule under consideration today would cut 30 10

percent of those carbon emissions by 2030. It 11
allows considerable flexibility for individual 12
states, as it does not specify how these cuts are 13
to be reached. By far the most effective cuts 14
would come from replacing fossil fuel electricity 15

with zero

- carbon options, prima rily solar, wind, 16
conservation and efficiency. 17
For 2012, transportation sources 18
accounted for 32 percent of our carbon emissions 19
and stationary sources, both electrical and 20
industrial amounted to about 52 percent

-- 21
clearly, the two more important sectors to look 22

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for sizable cuts of CO2. 1
By roughly 2030, the transportation cuts 2

would amount to about 12 percent of the total CO2 3
emissions, and the stationary and other 4
electricity source cuts to about 15 percent, 5
giving us 27 percent, simple addition, reductio n 6
of our country's total CO2 emissions by 2030. 7

The 2012

-- in 2012, the U.S. was 8
emitting approximately 5.3 billion metric tons of 9
CO2. By 2030, then, considering the cuts 10
discussed, that amount will have dropped over 11

that time from 5.3 to 3.9 billion me tric tons, 12
indicating that, at this rate of CO2 decline, it 13
would take about 50 years to end fossil fuel 14
pollution. 15
Since serious impacts are already 16
occurring due to the existing carbon pollution, 17
and keeping in mind that CO2 in our atmosphere 18
will keep r ising for years after we stop burning 19
fossil fuels, we must take this good first step 20
and build quickly to stop the rest. 21
Besides taking the first, absolutely 22

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critical step of reducing our fossil fuel 1
pollution, we can, for the very first time, pass 2

the sm ile test when we urge China and other large 3
carbon polluters to cut back. Now, President 4
Obama, thank you for taking this first important 5

step. Now let's accelerate your pace to a 6

fossil

- free future. 7
The ink was not yet dry on my 8
presentation, which I ju st gave, when I heard, as 9

many of you have, a couple of days ago, the 10
President Obama has approved oil and gas 11
exploration off the Carolina coast in the 12

Atlantic from Flor ida to Delaware to begin soon. 13
My overview of our climate change picture 14

would not be complete without two questions for 15

President Obama: Sir, where will be the areas 16
where oil and gas are to be left in the ground to 17
stop climate change, your recent statement? And, 18

is American carbon different from Alberta t ar 19

sands carbon? 20

Secondly, can we on the East Coast be 21
assured that what happened in the Gulf won't 22

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happen here to our beaches and our offshore 1

areas? Please don't take us backwards on climate 2
change. The earth's future depends on it and on 3
you, President Obama. 4

Last statement. This is by Am o ry Lovins. 5
I quoted him from the talk I heard two nights ago 6

by Amo ry. "Nuclear power is an energy source of 7
the future whose time has passed." 8

Thank you very much. 9

MR. THOMPSON: And thank you very much, 10

Mr. Ayers. 11
Are there any questions for Mr. Harman or 12

Mr. Ayers? 13
[No audible response.] 14

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Well, Mr. Harman 15

and Mr. Ayers, thank you both very much for your 16
testimony. 17

[Pause.] 18

MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 19
Harry Gregory and Michael Churchman. 20

[Pause.] 21

MR. THOMPSON: G ood morning, gentlemen, 22

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and thanks for joining us. 1
[Chorus of "Good morning."] 2

MR. THOMPSON: I'd like to start with 3

you, Mr. Gregory. If you could state your name 4
and spell it for the court reporter, and then you 5
can begin your testimony. 6

MR. GREGORY: Harry Gregory, H

- a

- r

- r

- y, 7

Gregory, G

- r

- e

- g

- o

- r

- y. 8
I live in Savannah, Georgia. And I'm a 9
student at Savannah State University. I'm a 10

member of the Environmental Science Club. We are 11
collecting signatures on a divestment petition on 12

campus. And I'm also a member of the "radical" 13
Sierra Club, the environmental group. 14

At the UN Sustain able Energy for All 15

forum, Sean Collins, with Student Energy, said, 16
"This is the first generation to experience the 17
effects of climate change and the last generation 18

that can do something about it." 19
I have three sons who are part of this 20
generation. I returned to school to learn what I 21
can do to promote policies favorable to renewable 22

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energy and help to accelerate the transition. 1
My family and I have lived in coastal 2

South Ca rolina, Georgia, and Florida for 15 3
years. It is paradise. When I go to the 4
beaches, I spend time picking up other people's 5
trash because it annoys me that anyone would come 6
to paradise and leave trash behind. My father 7

and grandfather taught me to retu rn things to the 8

same, or better, condition than I found them. If 9
I borrow something, I clean it before I return 10

it. 11
I want power plants to do the same thing. 12
They borrow our air and water. I want them to 13
clean it before they return it. Not doing this 14
keeps their cost of business artificially low. 15
They are fighting the Clean Power Plan because 16

the extra costs will accelerate the shift to 17

renewable energy. 18
We all know renewable energy is the 19

future, and we all know why polluters want to 20

stall the future . They make money putting their 21

trash in our air and water, but that business 22

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model is obsolete. 1
Debating the merits of the Clean Power 2

Plan is a smokescreen. Business

- as

- usual is 3
ending. The industry isn't here to win this 4
fight. They are here to prol ong the shift to 5
renewable energy by showing how hard they will 6
fight, every step of the way. 7
The Clean Power Plan doesn't even require 8
them to return clean air. It will require them 9
to return air that is less dirty. Yet they are 10
fighting it like dinosau rs stuck in a tar pit. 11

They struggle to show that the safeguards 12

will cause rate hikes. But remember, these are 13
the people who can't estimate the cost of 14
building a power plant accurately. They plead 15
for lost jobs without regard for the jobs at risk 16

in t he tourism industry or the new jobs that will 17
come with renewable energy innovation. 18

The telegraph put P ony E xpress riders out 19
of work. The automobile reduced jobs making 20
buggy whips. We can adapt to progress by choice, 21
or we will be forced to adapt to c limate change. 22

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Either path will be disruptive. We are entering 1
a new era. Let's embrace the opportunities that 2

come with it. 3
I applaud the EPA for taking on this 4
fight. I urge you to implement the Clean Power 5
Plan and start the process of making it str onger. 6

Thank you. 7

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Gregory. 8
Thank you for your testimony. 9

Mr. Churchman? 10
MR. CHURCHMAN: Hi. My name is Michael 11

Churchman. I'm Executive Director of the Alabama 12

Environmental Council. Anybody that knows me 13

knows that I wear many hats, like many people. I 14
want to share with you today some of the things I 15

think of when I wear those hats. 16
In my work, the Alabama Environmental 17

Council has worked on land use and waste 18
reduction issues for many years, longer than the 19

EPA has been around. We do a lot of work on 20
recycling, and with that hat on, we teach people 21
to reduce waste, reuse as much as possible, and 22

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then recycle to conserve as many of our natural 1
resources as possible. 2

I'm encouraged every day by people that 3

want to reduce their negative impacts on our 4
environment and leave the planet better than they 5
found it. The Clean Power Plan would help reduce 6

waste. 7

The Clean Power Plan would also help to 8

reduce the unaccounted

- for carbon pollution that 9
is being emitted into the air. When we work with 10
businesses to recycle, they have to pay for the 11
trash that gets hauled away. They can't just go 12
to the edge of their property and dump it onto 13
their neighbor's property. 14
For decades, dirty power plants, the 15

largest sources of carbon po llution, have been 16
allowed to dump unlimited amounts of carbon into 17
the air. These power plants are currently 18
emitting huge amounts of carbon pollution as if 19
it just goes away. "Away" really means into our 20
air and our communities. There is no "away." 21

An d there are huge costs that we 22

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currently pay to our health and to our wallets 1
that will only grow unless we act. The health of 2
our children and future generations is on the 3

line. 4

As we've expanded our work on energy 5
policy in Alabama, I often wear another hat. 6

I've had conversations with business owners that 7
are trying to help be as energy efficient as 8
possible and grow the clean energy economy. 9
Small businesses have shared with me that they 10

can save homeowners an average of 26 percent on 11
their energy bi lls monthly, and this makes their 12
homes more comfortable through energy efficiency. 13
When people talk about electricity rates, 14
we should remember that energy efficiency is a 15
thing that can help all o f us to lower our bills, 16
and it should be pursued heavily. 17

I also talk to a lot of people that see 18
that renewable energy, especially solar, is the 19
future. However, the rates paid to distributive 20
producers, along with the tariffs charged by 21

utilities in Alabama are restrictive and do not 22

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incentivize this new tech nology that is growing 1

across the rest of the Southeast. Alabama is 2
behind many states, including Georgia. 3

The Clean Power Plan would spur 4
innovation, accelerate the clean energy economy, 5
and create good American jobs. 6
Another hat that I wear is a Boy Sco ut 7

hat. I'm a Scoutmaster for my son's troop and an 8

Eagle Scout. As such, I learn ed the importance 9
of leaving no trace when we venture out into 10

nature. 11
One of the very important lessons that 12
I'm trying to teach to our scouts is to leave a 13

better place th an we found it. When we hike 14
along a beautiful hiking trail, it's discouraging 15

to see someone else's trash. How can we teach 16

our children this lesson if our businesses and 17
government regulations don't reflect this? 18

The Clean Power Plan helps us move towa rd 19
leaving the planet as good or better than we 20

found it. 21

I hope people that know me also know 22

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about the hat that I wear relating to my faith. 1
I belong to a denomination that places a high 2
importance on care of creation. Old Testament 3
teachings record Go d as placing the 4
responsibility for humans to care for the earth, 5
similar to tending a garden. 6
Anyone that has done any gardening knows 7
that it is a delicate system. I never realized 8
the connectedness of everything until I wanted to 9

grow vegetables for my family. Too much rain or 10
not enough, too much fertilizer or plantings too 11
close had huge impacts on the whole garden. The 12
same goes for our planet. There are a limited 13

number of resources, and we must be mindful of 14
our impacts on others. 15
My faith teach es me that acting on the 16
climate is a moral imperative and to put off 17
acting is abdicating our responsibility. 18
Lastly, a hat that I love to wear is that 19
of dad and husband. In our family, it is very 20
important to recognize human rights and to 21

acknowledge t he climate is changing, and 22

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recognize our responsibility to act in such a way 1
that my children and theirs will have a 2
comfortable place to live. 3

My 11

- year

- old daughter, my 13

- year

- old 4
son have a right to inherit a livable planet. If 5

we don't act soon, th eir world will be vastly 6
different than the one we live in today. That's 7

not fair. 8
Climate disruptions are the greatest 9
challenge facing our generation. As I'm sure 10
everyone in this room would say, I want better 11
for my children. And that is perhaps the most 12
important reason why I support the EPA's proposed 13

Clean Power Plan. 14

Thank you. 15

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Churchman, 16

and Mr. Gregory. 17
Any questions for either of the 18

gentlemen? 19
[No audible response.] 20
MR. THOMPSON: Well, again, thank you 21

both ve ry much for your testimony. Thank you 22

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very much. 1

[Pause.] 2

MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 3
Christy Chewning and Free Pola z zo, P

- o

- l

- a

- z

- z

- o. 4

[Pause.] 5

MR. THOMPSON: Good morning. Good 6
morning to the both of you. 7

[Pause.] 8

MR. THOMPSON: And we'll also need you to 9

submit one out front, sir. 10
Okay. Beginning with you, Mrs. Chewning, 11
if you could just state and spell your name for 12
the court reporter, and then you can begin with 13
your testimony. 14

MS. CHEWNING: Okay. Thank you. 15

MR. THOMPSON: You're welcome

. 16
MS. CHEWNING: My name is Christy, C

- h

- r

17

i

- s

- t

- . Last name is Chewning, C

- h

- e

- w

- n

- i

- n

- g. 18
I would like to thank you for the 19
opportunity to come and speak to you today. 20
Again, my name is Christy Chewing. I'm the 21
Manager of Marketing at Central Georgia E lectric 22

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Membership Corporation. We're located in 1
Jackson, Georgia. 2
Central Georgia meets the needs of 3

members of a 14

- county area, which is 4
approximately 51,000 billed accounts and 5,331 5

lines of distribution, miles of distribution. 6
Electric cooperatives support the 7

development of cost

- effective renewable energy 8
and energy efficiency. We are leading by example 9

with that. In fact, since 2009, electric 10
cooperatives have doubled their renewable energy 11
capacity and have made long

- term investments in 12

wind, so lar, hydro

- energy production, as well a 13
making long

- term investments in energy 14
efficiency. 15
Central Georgia EMC where I work is a 16

member of Green Power EMC. Green Power is a 17
renewable energy company of the Georgia EMC's. 18
Through Green Power EMC, cooperati ves in Georgia 19
lead the state and were the first utility to 20

offer green power to our consumers. 21

Just a few weeks ago, Green Power EMC, we 22

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announced a new solar partnership in which 1
Georgia's EMC's are going to be receiving 20 2

megawatts of solar energy from a solar farm that 3
is 137 acres in Jeff Davis County. 4
Cooperatives care about the environment. 5

After all, we live in the same communities that 6
we serve. We play with our kids in the same 7
parks. We breathe the same air, and we drink the 8

same water. We a lso care deeply about affordable 9
energy. Most importantly, that's what our 10

members care about. 11
We work every day to provide affordable 12
and reliable electricity to all we serve. 13
Fortunately, support for the environment and a 14

true all

- of

- the

- above energy p olicy are not 15
mutually exclusive. Cooperatives work hard to 16
build portfolios of generation resources that 17
meet all of the needs of their members, including 18
safety, reliability, affordability, and 19
environmental sustainability. 20
Unfortunately, this proposal slams the 21

door on our all

- of

- the

- above energy strategy, 22

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handpicking the winners, the losers
, in the 1
pursuit of CO2 reductions that represent really 2
only a small proportion of the world's CO2 3

emissions. And we believe it will have a 4
statistically irrelevan t long

- term impact on 5
climate change. 6
I urge you to withdraw your proposal and 7

work with us, the EMC's, on a commonsense 8
approach that will be a true all

- of

- the

- above 9

energy strategy. 10

Thank you. 11
MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mrs. Chewning. 12

Mr. Polazzo. 13

MR. POL AZZO: Do we get to ask questions? 14

MR. THOMPSON: No, sir. 15

MR. POLAZZO: Oh. 16
MR. THOMPSON: We listen to you today. 17

MR. POLAZZO: Okay. Thank you, 18
gentlemen. I appreciate you coming to Atlanta. 19

MR. THOMPSON:. Mr. Polazzo, I'm sorry. 20

Could you start by stating

-- 21
MR. POLAZZO: Oh, my name is Free 22

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Polazzo. I live in Douglas County. My utility 1
is GreyStone Power , one of the cooperatives

-- 2

THE COURT REPORTER: Can you spell your 3

name? 4

MR. POLAZZO:

-- that actually charges me 5

extra for green power, by t he way. 6

F

- r

- e

- e

- is my first name. P

- o

- l

- a

- z

- z

7

o. 8

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. 9

MR. POLAZZO: And I'm here partly 10
representing Greening Georgia, which is an 11
advocacy group for the environment that's part of 12
the State Democratic Party. We were approved 13

last y ear , another first advocacy group in 14
Georgia. And the reason is that we need this is 15

that for some reason, clean air, clean water, and 16
clean food have become a political issue. 17

And this is making us a little crazy in 18
Georgia, because even though we have c hoices, 19
like the cooperatives if you live in a 20
cooperative area, in my cooperative, and I've 21
lived there 16 years, we have elections every 22

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year. There has never been anybody running 1
against anybody. It's always like one person on 2

the ballot. 3

So I don't k now what kind of choices we 4
have. The board nominates people. It's very 5

difficult to run. And it's almost like the 6
politics in our state and in some of the other 7

states, where we

-- it's a very exclusive 8
community. 9
So I wrote this along a more personal. 10
Dear Administrator McCarthy: I agree 11

with the evidence that shows carbon dioxide and 12
other global warming pollution endangers public 13
health and welfare. I applaud the EPA for using 14
its authority under the Clean Air Act, which was, 15

small D, democraticall y approved by the whole 16
country, to take action to protect us from 17
pollution that threatens public health. 18
And I urge you to move rapidly to 19
finalize a strong rule designed to control carbon 20
pollution from existing coal

- fired and natural 21

gas

- fired power pl ants. 22

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My comments will address two major issues 1
that I personally have experienced. The first 2
one is going to be about, are we

-- how do we 3
calculate the true cost of burning coal? And the 4

second one was, does anybody calculate the true 5

cost to individua ls in our communities who suffer 6
from illnesses exacerbated by the burning of 7

coal? 8
First, do we actually calculate true 9
costs? Lower cost is often given as a reason for 10
keeping coal

- fired plants running. But my 11
experience says we don't actually calculat e the 12
cost to the community of burning coal. Only the 13
cost of the coal mining industry

-- mining, 14
transporting, and burning

-- are included in the 15

numbers that we evaluate. 16
As a CPA trained at the University of 17
Michigan's Graduate School of Business, who 18
earned an MBA in Accounting and then worked as an 19
external public auditor, internal auditor, 20
controller, and who also taught accounting as an 21
assistant professor at several colleges, I can 22

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unequivocally state that many of the actual costs 1
incurred by the p eople in our communities are not 2
included in the spreadsheets that calculate the 3
cost of burning coal, and which are then used to 4
compare the various forms of energy production 5
methods now available, especially in the South. 6

Two

-- I'm not going to go into an 7
accounting lecture, so don't worry. What is the 8
cost to people who suffer illnesses made worse by 9
burning coal? 10

Well, first I want to look at the cost to 11

coal miners and their families. I've lived in 12
Eastern Ohio near the border of West Virginia 13

wher e I taught accounting and had a class full of 14
coal miners. This was at a community college. 15
How to earn a living in an office environment, as 16
many were fearful of suffering badly in the mines 17

and wanted a way out of them. 18
I'm telling you this as a way of letting 19
you know of my personal experience with the 20
population that often we don't talk about or 21

include in our cost calculations. 22

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MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Polazzo, I'm afraid 1
your time has expired. But I'd like to suggest 2

that you

-- 3

MR. POLAZZO: Oh. We ge t five minutes? 4

MR. THOMPSON: Yes, sir. Your five 5
minutes has expired. But what I'd like to 6
suggest is that you give, share a copy of this 7

for the record
, out front. 8

MR. POLAZZO: Yeah. And it's on

-- I put 9

it on the website. 10

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. 11

MR. POLAZZO: Yeah. Let's remember the 12

coal miners and the children. 13

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Before you leave, 14
are there any questions for Mrs. Chewning or Mr. 15

Polazzo? 16
[No audible response.] 17

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Well, thank you 18
both very much for your testim ony. Thank you. 19
MR. POLAZZO: Thank you for coming here. 20

MR. THOMPSON: Yes, sir. 21

[Pause.] 22

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MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are Greg 1
Andeck and Wendell Rigsby. 2

[Pause.] 3
MR. THOMPSON: Good morning. Are you Mr. 4
Andeck or Mr. Rigsby? 5

MR. ANDECK: Andeck. 6
MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Wendell Rigsby? 7
[Inaudible interjection.] 8
MR. THOMPSON: Okay. So he's not in the 9

room? No? 10

MALE VOICE: No, he's not in the room 11

now. 12

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you. 13
[Inaudible interjection.] 14

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you very 15

much, sir. 16
All right. Please state your name for 17
the court reporter and spell it, and then you can 18
begin your testimony. 19

MR. ANDECK: I'm Greg Andeck. A

- n

- d

- e

- c

20
k. Thank you so much for having me today. I'm 21
from North Carolina and represent the 22

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Environ mental Defense Fund. 1
EDF is a national organization with 2

800,000 members. EDF links science, economics, 3
law, and private sector partnerships to solve our 4
most serious environmental challenges. 5
The proposed Clean Power Plan is a 6
critical step to reduce cli mate pollution emitted 7

from U.S. power plants, one of the largest 8
sources of greenhouse gases in the world. EDF 9

strongly supports the Clean Power Plan. 10
The recent Risky Business report 11

documented substantial economic costs from 12
climate change that will af fect the Southeast

-- 13
damage and loss of coastal infrastructure and 14
property, extreme heat impacts, and shifting 15
patterns in agriculture. 16
The Southeast is the region expected to 17
be the most affected by increase in temperatures. 18

Extremely hot days, 95 degr ees or above, could 19
cause a decrease in labor productivity by 3.2 20
percent in the construction, mining, utilities, 21
transportation, and agricultural sectors. 22

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Extreme heat is also projected to cause 11,000 to 1

36,000 more deaths each year. 2

Now, another report , the National Climate 3
Assessment, found that climate change just in 4
Georgia alone could reduce corn yields by 15 5
percent and reduce wheat yields by 20 percent by 6
2020, only six years away. Recall that the 7
drought in 2007 cost Georgia's economy $339 8

milli on in crop losses. 9

Fortunately, we know how to reduce carbon 10
pollution from power plants. Update the existing 11

fleet, rely more on low

- polluting generation such 12
as wind and solar, increase energy efficiency. 13
The benefits? Healthier families, more jobs, a nd 14
economic development across the Southeast. 15
North Carolina, home to the country's 16
largest electric utility, illustrates how states 17
could benefit from the flexibility proposed in 18

the Clean Power Plan. The plan would allow North 19
Carolina to get credit for steps it already has 20
taken to grow clean energy and invest in energy 21
efficiency. 22

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Here are some examples. North Carolina 1
has an energy efficiency policy that allows 2
utilities to earn a fair return when they make 3
energy efficiency investments, rather than build 4
new traditional power plants. North Carolina 5
also has a renewables portfolio standard that 6
requires investor

- owned utilities to increase 7
their mix of clean energy and energy efficiency 8

resources to 12.5 percent by 2021. 9
The RPS will help the state c omply with 10
the mission reduction targets cost

- effectively 11
while cutting emissions of carbon pollution and 12
other pollutants harmful to public health. 13
North Carolina proves the clean energy 14
economy benefits our citizens. North Carolina's 15
solar industry is n ow ranked number four in the 16
country in installed solar capacity, thanks to 17
policies that make it easier for investors to 18
finance projects. 19
And lastly, North Carolina has more than 20
1,000 clean energy and energy efficiency 21
companies that can help the state meet the Clean 22

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Power Plan. 1

North Carolina demonstrates how a state 2
can move to a clean energy economy in a 3

thoughtful, measured, and cost

- effective manner. 4
Other Southeast states can adopt similar policies 5
and programs to reduce carbon emissions while 6

bal ancing regional economic needs. 7

Now we need a Clean Power Plan to help 8
our entire country transition quickly and cost 9
effectively to a clean energy economy. 10
Thank you again for the opportunity to 11
testify. And EDF will be submitting additional 12

technical co mments on the rule. 13

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 14

Andeck. 15
Mr. Rigsby. Good morning, first of all. 16
MR. RIGSBY: Good morning. 17
MR. THOMPSON: And if you'll state your 18
name and then spell it for the court reporter, 19
and then you can begin with your tes timony, sir. 20
MR. RIGSBY: Yeah. My name is Wendell 21
Rigsby. Wendell is W

- e

- n

- d

- e

- l

- l. Rigsby, R

- i

22

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g

- s

- b

- y. 1

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. 2
MR. RIGSBY: I live in Jasper, Alabama. 3

I'm a member of UMWA Local 7930 and work for 4

Drummond Coal Company at Natural Br idge Mine, the 5
Arkadelphia Mine, the Senior Mine, and the Shoal 6
Creek Mines, for a total of 40 years. 7
Like many of the miners who have 8
testified before the EPA regarding the Clean 9
Power Plan you are proposing, I grew up in a 10
small community in Alabama. 11

How ever, before my mining career began, I 12
joined the Navy. At the time, I had three 13
brothers serving in the Navy, and I felt honored 14
and proud to serve my country also. I joined the 15
Navy in November of 1968. After boot camp, I 16

received orders to serve aboa rd the aircraft 17

carrier USS America, CBA 66. 18

I made a Mediterranean sea tour and then 19
was deployed to Vietnam as a classified aircraft 20
handler and director on the flight deck. During 21

that time, we

-- 24 hours a day, there was 22

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bombing missions of the Gulf of Tonkin. And I 1

worked the 12

- hour shifts at night directing the 2
planes. And unfortunately, I saw some men die, 3
some of the pilots and some of the aircraft 4

handlers blown over deck, accidents. 5
But as most who served, I felt a unique 6

bond with others who were drafted and joined the 7
military. Military service teaches you many 8
things, including a deep sense of commitment to 9

your country and a brotherhood for those who 10
serve with you. My service to our country has 11
helped define who I am. I am proud of my service 12

to this nation. 13

When I returned from Vietnam, there was 14
no parades, no outward recognition from the 15

nation as a whole for the sacrifices that were 16

made by so many on behalf of the country. Those 17
of us who could cope with this painful reality 18

had t he scars of war and began to build our lives 19

in the small communities where we were raised. 20
In 1974, I began my career in the Peabody 21

Coal Warrior Mine. After its closure I moved on 22

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to the Drummond Coal Mines. I built a life for 1
my family, educated my ch ildren, and have been a 2
hardworking member of society. And like my 3
military service, I was surrounded by a very 4
unique group of people. Coal miners rely on each 5

other. We look out for one another. And the 6

work that we do creates a brotherhood of its ow n. 7
There are few occupations in the world 8
that requires each person to rely so heavily on 9
the brothers and sisters they work with. Like my 10
military service, I am proud to be a coal miner. 11
I have worked hard to make a living in the mines, 12

and those effort s have helped me

-- helped this 13
nation to grow into a superpower. 14
Coal has powered the industrial base, 15
built sustainable manufacturing, and made sure 16
that when each of you flipped a switch, the 17
lights come on. I have made a good living in the 18

mines, and through my years of service earned a 19
pension and health care for my retirement years. 20
Yet, just as when I returned from 21
Vietnam, I feel my country has chosen to abandon 22

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me. While the circumstances are very different, 1
the message is the same. With the imp lementation 2
of this rule, you are threatening all that I have 3
worked for. You will put my pension plan at risk 4
and eliminate my health care plan at the same 5

time. 6
The EPA's plan to marginalize the coal 7
industry in this country will have no positive 8
impact on the global problem you are targeting. 9
But it will destroy all that I and my fellow 10

miners have worked for. 11
Like before, there will not be any 12
parades. There will be no recognition of the 13

efforts miners have made to build this nation. 14
And it appears you have decided you are done with 15

us, that we are no longer part of your plan, and 16

can be sacrificed. 17
Yes, the circumstances may be very 18

different. But let there be no mistakes : The 19
idea is very much the same. You just want to get 20
this over with, ignor e us, and push us off to the 21
side. You just want to forget that we were ever 22

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here. And I have experienced those feelings 1

before. And the plan to turn your backs on the 2
coal miner are no more justifiable now than it 3
was when I returned from military serv ice. 4

Let me assure you as one who has served 5

this nation in wartime and in the coal mines: 6
Our struggle against this rule is only just 7
beginning. I do hope that you will have more of 8
these hearings in the coal

- mining communities 9
that these rulings will a ffect, so you will 10
understand the impact of this nation and our

-- 11

as a whole. 12
Thank you for your time in letting me 13
testify. 14

MR. THOMPSON: And thank you for your 15
testimony, Mr. Rigsby. 16
Are there any questions for Mr. Andeck or 17
Mr. Rigsby? 18

[No audible res ponse.] 19
MR. THOMPSON: And, Mr. Rigsby, thank you 20
for your service to the country, sir. 21

MR. RIGSBY: Thank you. 22

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MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. 1

[Pause.] 2
MR. THOMPSON: Okay. At this time, we're 3
going to take a five

- minute break, or a little 4

more than five minu tes. Let's reconvene in this 5

room at 11:30. At 11:30. Thank you. 6

[Recess taken from 11:22 to 11:30 a.m.] 7
MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Good morning. 8
[Chorus of "Good morning."] 9
MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us, 10
gentlemen. We're going to start with Mr. 11

De wberry, if you'll state and spell your name for 12

the court reporter, and then you can begin with 13
your testimony, sir. 14

MR. DEWBERRY: Thank you. 15

MR. THOMPSON: You're welcome. 16
MR. DEWBERRY: My name is Daryl, D

- a

- r

- y

17
l, middle initial is H, Dewberry, D

- e

- w

- b

- e

- r

- r

18
y. I'm the International Vice President for the 19

United Mine Workers of America, District 20, 20

which covers the Southeast

-- the Southeast, 21
which is probably going to have the worst impact 22

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as a result of these EPA regs going in at 30 1

percent greater than the 2005 level. 2
Let me say first and foremost I'm really 3
disappointed that we didn't hold these hearings 4
in the coal fields so that you could look the 5

coal miners, the steel workers who make coke to 6

make the steel, the railroad workers that haul 7

the c oal and coke, as well as the power plant 8

workers

-- look them in the face and hear from 9

them. 10

You know, it's announced on TV. We feel 11

like it's a done deal. We've never taken 12
anything lightly. Since 1890, we've been a 13

diverse union, first union to have diversity on 14

the executive board. African Americans served on 15
the executive board in 1890. And, you know, it's 16

evident that without the coal, we wouldn't have 17

the present

- day

-- let me read something out of 18

our preamble. 19

"That there is no truth more obvi ous than 20

without coal, there could not have been a more 21
marvelous social and industrial progress as 22

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marked present

- day civilization." 1

Gentlemen, we have the most abundant 2

resource in coal here in these United States like 3

oil is to Saudi Arabia. Medicine, fuel oil

-- 4
over in Africa, they're making fuel to fly planes 5
with out of coal oil. The Germans did it during 6

World War II. And here we are, we can make a 7
bomb, an atomic bomb, a hydrogen bomb in less 8
than three years, to win the war. And coal had 9

an in tegral part in that. 10
And now we're going to walk away from it. 11
And I know you say, "Well, we're not going to 12
walk away from it." But the adverse effects, the 13

talent, the seasoned miners that it takes

-- you 14

know, Truman tried to mine the coal with the 15

Na tional Guard in 1947. That brought rise to a 16
contract signed between the government and John 17
L. Lewis that gave us health care from cradle to 18

grave. 19
They couldn't do it. And if we lose that 20
technique and that technology, it's going to be 21
devastating. We 're going to have to come back to 22

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coal. And it may be after this administration. 1
Germany tried it. As we speak, they tried wind 2
and solar. They're building 23 new coal

- fired 3

plants. 4
This is not a United States problem. 5
It's a global issue. You're not going to get the 6
Japanese, you're not going to get the Chinese, 7
you're not going to get the India or any of the 8

Third World nations, much less Russia. EPA don't 9
have any authority to ensure that they're 10
emitting the standard of carbon that we are. 11

And as you know, carbon released anywhere 12
is a problem everywhere. And when you cut the 13
lights off on some of these coal miners that live 14
in the rural areas, they're going to burn tires 15
to keep warm. They will do whatever it takes to 16
feed their family. And yo u're disrupting a way 17

of life. 18

In Alabama, we've got the deepest coal 19
mines, gassiest coal mines on the northern 20
continent. And guess what? Coal miners love 21
their job. They

-- I've been in it since 1975. 22

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I've been with the international union since 1

198 5. And I wouldn't do anything else. 2
So I submit to you that while they're 3
building 1,200 coal

- fired plants to replace the 4
300 that we're shutting down, all we're doing is 5
outsourcing jobs, cheap energy, and carbon. 6
Because the carbon released will be gre ater than 7

what we release with these 300. 8

TVA shut down some 42 coal

- fired plants, 9
reassembled. And you talk about environmental 10
disaster? If you don't know what fracking is, 11
fracking is probably more

-- it's more dangerous 12

to this environment than coal emissions could 13

ever be. 14
Moreover, they've found that if you 15
granulate coal, inject it with pure oxygen, you 16
can get a greater burn. Let's invest in America. 17
Let's invest in these jobs. Or we may not have 18
an immigration problem, because Americans will b e 19
going overseas to find a job, be working for 20

fish

- heads and rice. But it's going to be a 21
sight. 22

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Thank you for your time. And I would 1
appreciate more hearings. Have them in the coal 2
fields so you can look these coal miners in the 3

eye. 4

Thank you. 5

MR. T HOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Dewberry. 6
Thank you for your testimony. 7
[Applause.] 8
MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Cagle, if you could 9
just state and spell your name for the court 10
reporter, and then begin your testimony. 11

MR. CAGLE: Okay. My name is Dwight 12

Cagle, from D

- w

- i

- g

- h

- t

- C

- a

- g

- l

- e, from Bre men, 13

Alabama. 14

I also work in the mines. I work at Jim 15
Walter Resources, number seven mine, which my 16

Local is 2397 out of District 20. The mines is 17
in Tuscaloosa, which we employ over 1,200 people 18

there that are dependent on th is way of life to 19

work. 20

I have worked for 40 years with Jim 21
Walter Resources, underground electrician. Also, 22

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just like Mr. Rigsby, I've served with the

-- got 1
drafted in the U.S. Marine Corps, served 1969 to 2
1971. Also, when I got out of the Marine Corps
, 3
honorably, I joined the Army Reserves, served in 4
it for three years, plus worked in the mines. So 5
this is enough about me. 6
What are we going to do about these young 7
people that's in the mines now that depends on 8
this way of life? Went to college, got t heir 9
degree in engineering, mining engineering? What 10
are we going to do about this? These rules will 11
take away their futures. Like I said, I was 12

close to my retirement now. 13
I've just turned 65 years old. But I'm 14
scared to retire. Where's my health car e? 15
Where's my retirement going to be at? With this, 16
all this money comes in from these other mines 17
being paid in for this . And, you know, scared to 18
retire. Like I said, health care, supposed to 19
have my veteran benefits, but we know where we 20

are on the veterans right now. So it's down the 21

road, too. 22

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But we are going on. We got to tell 1
these young miners back at the mines they going 2
to be asking the question, "What are we going to 3
do? What are we going to do? The mine's shut 4

down." And you know, they invested a lot of 5
money going to school to be a miner, coal miner. 6
The elderly? What are we going to do 7

about their

-- they're on fixed incomes. The 8
retirees, their power bills, the gas bills? 9
Which gas bill has already tripled. They want to 10

convert t hese power plants over to gas. You 11
can't afford the gas bill, especially living out 12
in the country. You cannot afford it. Just last 13
winter, it tripled. 14

And the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, they 15
found about the consumers would pay nearly $290 16

billion more f or electric bill in the next 15 17
years under this plan. So what are we going to 18

do to help these people? 19

Thank you. 20

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Cagle. 21
Are there any questions for Mr. Dewberry 22

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or Mr. Cagle? 1
[No audible response.] 2

MR. THOMPSON: Gentlemen , again, thank 3
you very much for your testimony. Thank you. 4

[Pause.] 5

MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 6

Thomas Wilson and Rick ey K orn e g a y. 7

[Pause.] 8
MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen. 9
[Chorus of "Good morning."] 10
MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us

. 11
I'd like to begin with testimony from Mr. 12
Wilson. So if you could state and spell your 13

name for the court reporter, and then you can 14
begin with your testimony, sir. 15

MR. WILSON: Thank you. 16

MR. THOMPSON: You're welcome. 17
MR. WILSON: My name is Thomas F. Wilson. 18

T

- h

- o

- m

- a

- s F. W

- i

- l

- s

- o

- n. 19

I live in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. I'm a 20

59

- and

- a

- half

- year

- old proud coal miner, also a 21
coal miner inspector. 22

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I've been mining for 38 years of my life. 1
I rise in opposition to this standard for many 2
reasons, including the following: 3
Number one, I've heard much testimony 4
concerning past historical mining problems. We 5
heard testimony yesterday about reclamation 6
problems, conditions that existed pre

7
regulations. Much of the testimony was relying 8
on that past history vers us current

- day facts. 9
Throughout those 38 years of mining, the 10
majority of that has been inspecting mines. I'm 11
proud to say that the conditions of our mines, 12
our compliance records have continued to 13
progressively improve. Mines that were once 14

dangerous a re now achieving safety records clear 15

across this land. 16

Number two. Our nation and citizens 17
realize that this standard will not improve the 18
global warming, simply because EPA has once again 19
failed to present a global answer. I remember 20

years past when we testified and discussed this 21

exact same issue, a United States solution to a 22

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global problem, with everybody recognizing that 1
it was not going to have the desired effect. 2
Number three. I heard much testimony 3
yesterday representing

-- and I quote

-- "those 4
of faith." I'm also God's man. I love my Lord 5
Jesus Christ. And I can tell you that at least 6
two services I've been in in the month of July, 7
the pastors have clearly not representing what 8
those that spoke yesterday was representing. 9

They was about the misdirection that this is 10
going to have on all of our communities and on 11

our people. 12
Number four. I'm just two years away 13
from enjoying the benefits of 40 years of labor, 14
including good health care and two pension plans. 15
And without a doubt, if this goe s into effect, 16
all of that is in danger and will be wiped out

-- 17

a lifetime of work towards benefits that's now 18
going to be unachievable. 19

Number five. The immediate job loss for 20
miners, equipment manufacturers, truckers, 21
railroad workers, utility workers, vendors, and 22

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other related workers. 1

Number six. Let there be no mistake: 2
When the rule is fully implemented, over 64,000 3
jobs in the coal mining, utility, and railroad 4
industries will be gone forever. But that is 5
only the beginning of the devastation. When you 6
add the jobs that depend on mining to survive

-- 7
railroads, truckers, equipment, manufacturers, 8
engineers, and others

-- more than 208,000 9

workers and their families will be affected. 10
This job

- killing policy will reach well 11
beyond the coal fields and cripple manufacturers 12

across the nation. 13
A July 24th article in the news stream 14
stated that more than 17,000 coal jobs lost since 15

2011. I've seen some of those communities. 16
Those communities turned into ghost towns. Those 17

communities are now full

- - where they was once 18
good jobs, those communities are now full of 19
poverty, crime, drug abuse, and just no hope. 20

We have beautiful communities across this 21

land. And I pray that we don't destroy more of 22

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them. 1

Thank you. 2
MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Wilso n. 3
Thank you for your testimony. 4

If you could please state your name and 5
spell it for the court reporter, and then you can 6
begin with your testimony, as well. 7
MR. KORNEGAY: Okay. My name is Rickey 8

Kornegay. R

- i

- c

- k

- e

- y K

- o

- r

- n

- e

- g

- a

- y. 9

As Mr. Wilson st ated, I also rise against 10
this rule. This past January, I retired from the 11
coal mines after working 43 years in the mines. 12
But the majority of that time of my life's 13
employed Jim Walter Resources at the number 4 14

mine. Also, that same period of time, I h ave 15

been a member of the United Mine Workers of 16
America, and currently I serve as Financial 17

Secretary of Local 2245. 18

I am also Mayor of the Town of Woodstock, 19

Alabama, where I have served as mayor for the 20
past 14 years. And before that was a council 21

membe r since we incorporated in 1996. 22

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I would like to thank you for the 1
opportunity to address this panel on the new EPA 2

Clean Power Plan released June 2nd, 2014. I do 3

not understand how can a rule that affects scores 4

of workers can become law without a vote i n 5
Congress or the agency that is adopting the 6
policy ever understand the damage they do to real 7
people and real families. 8
These hearings are being held in Atlanta, 9
Denver, Washington, D.C., and Pittsburgh. With 10
the exception of Pittsburgh, none of these 11

h earings are near any coal fields that this plan 12
will devastate in the loss of jobs and the impact 13

on the local economies. 14
I sincerely request that you not stop 15
here, but conduct more hearings for the people 16
who will be most adversely impacted where this 17

ru le live

-- Morgantown and Berkeley, West 18
Virginia; Washington, Pennsylvania; Henderson, 19
Kentucky; Price, Utah; and my area in the Jasper, 20

Alabama, area. 21
I guess you wonder how this would affect 22

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me as a retiree. As I said before, I worked 43 1

years to earn my pension and health care. This 2
rule would do away with mining jobs, which could 3
affect the retirement that I worked 43 years to 4
earn. Destroying large portions of the coal 5
industry can also destroy my future. 6
I'm referring to the destruction of the 7

Uni ted Mine Workers of America health and 8
retirement funds. This fund currently pays 9
pension and health care for nearly 100,000 10

retired coal miners, their families, and widows. 11
There are also tens of thousands of working 12
miners who are carrying on these ear ned benefits 13
when their working lives in the mines are done. 14
When you implement this policy, which EPA 15
acknowledges will close down a significant 16
portion of the coal industry in this country, you 17
eliminate the companies which we rely on to fund 18
continuing benefits. Without these employers, 19
there are no miners and there's no one to pay 20
into the funds. It will only be a matter of time 21
before the money runs out and the pension and 22

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health care of all of those who worked so hard to 1

secure them are left without any retirement 2
security. 3
One of these will be my 85

- year

- old 4
father, who worked 34 years in the mines and 5
enjoyed the pension and health care for these 34 6

years that he worked. 7
The stated goal, as I understand it, is 8

to reduce carbon dioxide emissions rel eased into 9
the atmosphere in the United States by 30 10
percent. That reduction is 30 percent below 2005 11
levels. Understanding, of course, that the total 12
emissions of all types emitted by coal

- fired 13
generating stations have already been 14
significantly reduce d over the past several 15

decades. 16
Newspapers and other publications, 17
including the Guardian, New York Times, 18

Environment and Climate Reviews, World Resource 19

Institute, and others have identified 59 20
countries across the globe that are planning to 21

build 1,200 coal

- fired power plants, constructing 22

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these plants at a rate of four per week. India 1

and China are scheduled to build 118 of these 2

coal

- fired stations over the next 15 years. 3

This will increase coal

- fired electricity 4
generation in China by 50 percent in that time. 5
China, who according to Environmental a nd Climate 6

N ews, does not have any pollution control devices 7
on 30 percent of their current generating 8
stations, and do not use the scrubbing equipment 9

of much of the 70 percent
, in order to keep 10

electric prices low. 11
These are countries you intend to 12
influence with this misguided policy. So, 13

whether we consider these other nations friend or 14
foe, they're all moving in the absolute opposite 15
direction in regard t o their own future power 16

needs. 17

Instead of enco uraging and investing in 18
new technology, like carbon capture and 19
sequestration and other clean

- coal technology at 20

home, the EPA is content to shut our industrials 21
across the nation by implementing a policy that's 22

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simply doomed to fail. 1

Unfortunately, that failure comes at an 2

extreme cost to those working in coal and coal

3
related industries. Once again, we are moving 4
ahead with policies that will enrich other 5
countries at the expense of our own people. This 6
is not a bold policy; it's a sellout. 7

As I stated at the start that I am the 8

Mayor of the Town of Woodstock, we're always 9
trying to recruit businesses and jobs for our 10
area. The first questions are about utilities, 11
water, sewer, and power rates. This plan will 12
raise the price of electricity rates by ma king it 13
harder to recruit businesses and jobs for our 14

area in Alabama, which has some of the lowest 15

rates in the nation. 16

MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Kornegay, may I ask 17
for your final thoughts? Your five minutes have 18
expired. 19
MR. KORNEGAY: Okay. Just that it wil l 20
affect my town as far as the income when you do 21
away with these jobs also, in that area. I 22

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would, with respect, request that you reconsider 1
this rule before putting this plan into effect. 2

Thank you very much. 3
MR. THOMPSON: Oh, you're quite welcome. 4

An d I'd also like to encourage both of you to 5

submit written comments as well. I noticed that 6
there was probably a lot that you didn't get to. 7
And we'd like to certainly hear it and read it. 8

MR. KORNEGAY: Okay. Thank you. 9

MR. THOMPSON: But before you go

-- yes, 10

sure. You're welcome. 11
Are there any questions for these two 12

gentlemen? 13
[No audible response.] 14
MR. THOMPSON: Well, again, thank you 15
very much for your time today. 16

[Pause.] 17

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Our next speakers 18
are Bob Wise and Casey Shelton. 19

[ Pause.] 20
MR. WISE: How ya'll doing? 21
MR. THOMPSON: Hey, doing great. How you 22

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gentlemen doing this morning? 1

[Chorus of "Fine."] 2
MR. THOMPSON: I'd like to begin with Mr. 3
Wise. And if you'll state and spell your name 4
for the court reporter, sir, and then y ou can 5
begin with your testimony. 6
MR. WISE: My name is Earl Bob Wise. 7

Earl, E

- a

- r

- l, Bob, B

- o

- b, Wise, W

- i

- s

- e. 8
MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, sir. Please 9
begin. 10

MR. WISE: Before I start, let me say 11
this. I've got hearing aids in. If I'm talking 12

too loud, tell me. I'll take

-- if people can't 13
hear me, because I don't know, with the hearing 14
aids, just what is

-- how loud I am. 15

MR. THOMPSON: Sure. Yes, sir. 16
MR. WISE: Good morning. 17
MR. THOMPSON: Good morning. 18

MR. WISE: I'm a retired miner and a 19

member o f the United Mine Workers of America, 20

Local 8460. I worked years in the mines, and 21
I've been retired for years. I currently receive 22

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a pension and health care benefits from the UMWA 1

in health and retirement funds, benefits that I 2

earned through the years for hard work in the 3
coal industry. 4
I think it is very important for everyone 5
here to understand that the pension and health 6
care benefits I receive are the result of years 7
of sacrifice. They are the promise in the 8
collective bargaining agreement between the UMWA 9
and the coal operators to provide economic 10
security and health benefits to older miners when 11
we retire from the industry. 12
Whether you know it or not, the policy 13
that the EPA is proposing here, when fully 14
implemented, will put this hard

- earned bene fit at 15

serious risk. 16
Looking at this from my point of view, 17
your hope that this policy will eliminate a 18
global problem is uncertain at best. However, 19
the rush to apply this risky policy, which 20
focuses almost exclusively on the coal industry, 21

will make it uncertain that I will receive the 22

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pension and health benefits that I was promised 1
and that I risked my life, health every single 2

day to earn. 3

I believe the situation that retired coal 4

miners and their families face because of this 5
policy is dangerous. 6

The problem should be easy for everyone 7
here to understand. It is about keeping what you 8

have worked a lifetime to achieve. I am sure 9

that each of you look forward to the day when you 10
can retire and continue to live securely because 11
of the retirement promise s that were made to you 12
in return for your hard work from the government. 13
I, for one, sincerely hope that these 14
days arrive for you when you choose to leave your 15
profession. This is all that I am asking for. 16
It is all that my brothers and sisters, who ha ve 17
given the best years of their lives to their 18
profession, are looking to receive. 19
We have earned the right to expect 20
security in our retirement. We have secured 21
these rights through hard work, sacrifice, and 22

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many years of collective bargaining agreement

. 1
But if the agency chooses to adopt this 2
questionable policy, and it destroys a large 3
proportion of the coal industry, it can also 4

destroy my future. 5
In closing, I would like to thank you for 6
your time and ask that you look very closely at 7

the consequenc es of your actions here today. 8

Thank you. 9
MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Wise, for 10
your testimony. 11

Mr. Shelton. 12
MR. SHELTON: My name is Casey Shelton, 13

C

- a

- s

- e

- y S

- h

- e

- l

- t

- o

- n. I am the Business 14
Manager of the International Brotherhood of 15

Electrical Worker s, System Council U19 in 16
Alabama. I represent nine local unions that work 17
in generating plants in hydro, nuclear, and also 18

fossils. 19

And I also serve as President of the 20

Alabama State Electrical Workers Association that 21
represents about 7,000 workers in th e whole, all 22

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aspects of the electrical industry in Alabama. 1

And today I'm here to speak for those 2
people, and am also here in support of our 3

brothers United Mine Workers. 4

MR. THOMPSON: Okay. 5

MR. SHELTON: I've got to thank ya'll 6
briefly. Ya'll sit and listened for two days and 7
have been very attentive. And I appreciate that. 8
And I know it's a tough task, and thank you for 9

that. 10

But I've heard a lot of different 11
opinions, and I always try to respect different 12
opinions, even though sometimes I don't ag ree 13

with them. I've heard a lot of those. And kind 14
of taking from that yesterday, and some today, I 15
think there's a lot of myth out there. And maybe 16
it's nobody's fault. Maybe it hasn't been 17
explained well to people. 18

But I want to talk about some of th e 19
capacity of these coal plants and what they 20
provide us. You know, our way of life and 21
everything means we count on from day to day when 22

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it comes to electricity. 1

When you look at peak load, you hear a 2
lot of people talk about "peak" in electrical 3

industr y and generating plants and such as that. 4
And I'll use a good example. In the summertime, 5
you get to a certain point where air conditioning 6
units will only do a certain amount. If it's 100 7
degrees, you're only going to get it so cool. 8

Well, when you loo k in the wintertime, 9
when we got into this polar vortex, they called 10
it, which my 80

- year

- old mother would call it "a 11
cold spell," but they name it today "polar 12

vortex"

-- but when we got in demand like that, 13
you're going to use heat. You're going to run 14
off heat strips. And people are going to stay 15
warm. And that peak just keeps going up and up 16

and up and up and up. 17
And the entire system throughout the 18
United States last winter was just on the ragged 19

edge of

-- I mean, they were looking at shedding 20

load , which means dropping customers, both 21
industrial customers, you know, communities, 22

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neighborhoods. That's where we're at today, 1
before all the impacts of these rules. 2
You look at what I call "throwing a chain 3
on a gate" of a fossil plant, where the worker s 4
that I represent are there. You can't get in a 5
bind and just say, "Hey, let's unlock the gate 6
and cut this thing back on." You can't

-- you 7
can't do that. So I think that example we had 8
this winter was just a good example of actually 9

where we're at. And I think there's a lot of 10
confusion on capacity. 11
You talk about reliability to customers. 12
You know, in the electrical industry, that's a 13
big thing. Lights go out; people expect them to 14
come back on. We do everything from heat our 15

homes, cool our home s, charge our cell phones. 16

And customers expect that. 17
We're afraid some of these rule changes 18
are going to affect that. And you look at some 19
of these communities that have these generating, 20
these fossil plants in it. I represent one in 21

Green County, Ala bama, poverty

- stricken area. 22

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Sixty percent of their tax base comes from that 1
generating plant in that area. If that plant was 2
to close, that community would, as we know it, 3
would absolutely just die. 4
The effects on these jobs and the 5
community and econom ic impact is a big, large 6
ripple effect. You've heard from the coal 7
miners. And it's people that transport coal. 8
It's people working in these plants. 9

And I represent these people that I say 10
actually produce the electricity. They are 11

actually the hands

- on people. And they're good 12

God

- fearing people that work in these places. 13
These communities are built around these wages 14
that they make. People come in, do maintenance 15
on these plants. The economy just cannot 16
absolutely, and the communities cannot hand le 17
losing these plants. 18
I hear a lot of people talk about jobs 19

really doesn't matter. Well, I think to a lot of 20
the people that's in this room today, those jobs 21
do matter, the important, important jobs in our 22

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industry. 1
I'd like to close by telling you thi s. I 2
respect your opinions, and we know that the 3
decisions you hold will affect us for years to 4
come. But please keep in mind this capacity 5
issue. If we don't, we could possibly be what I 6
think will actually

-- what we need to get the 7
public's attention , what it's going to take is 8
when we're at home sitting in the dark because of 9

these rules. 10

And I ask you
, one day, remember the old 11
boy that was from Alabama that talked in the EPA 12
hearings. We come very close this winter, and 13
it's going to happen. It's going to happen. So 14
I ask you to take that into consideration in the 15
decisions you make. 16
Again, thank you for letting me speak. I 17
want you to know that we stand beside others who 18
are calling for the total repeal of these rules. 19

The economy cannot affor d this. The communities 20

cannot afford it, and the workers can't afford 21

it. 22

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Thank you very much. 1
[Applause.] 2

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Shelton. 3
And thank you, Mr. Wise, as well. 4

Before you guys leave, I want to turn to 5
my colleagues and see if they ha ve any questions 6

for you. 7

[Pause.] 8
MR. THOMPSON: Well, again, gentlemen, I 9
can't thank you enough for your testimony today. 10

MR. SHELTON: Thank you very much. Thank 11
you for having us. 12
MR. HUTSON: I was just going to say I 13
would definitely encourage you to submit 14
additional comments, especially issues associated 15
with capacity. You brought that up. 16

MR. SHELTON: Yes, sir. 17

[Cross

- talk.] 18
MR. SHELTON: We sure will. Be glad to. 19

Thank ya'll. 20

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. 21
Okay. At this time, we're going to brea k 22

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for lunch. And I guess we'll reconvene here at 1
1:00 p.m. So, back in this room at 1:00 p.m. 2
And thank you all for participating and for your 3
testimony today. 4
[Recess taken from 11:51 to 1:05 p.m.] 5

AFTERNOON SESSION 6

PANEL NUMBER 2 7

MR. HARVEY: Is Augus t Pres c hle or 8
Vincent Hall here? Mr. Hall. So we'll get 9
started in a second. I might wait for a minute 10

to see if Mr. Hall arrives. But not much more. 11

[Pause.] 12
MR. HARVEY: Good afternoon. My name is 13
Reid Harvey. I'm the Division Director of EPA's 14

Cle an Air Markets Division in the Office of Air 15
and Radiation. I'm chairing today's hearing, and 16

I wanted to thank you for coming today. 17
Joining me on the panel, from left to 18
right, on my far left here Darryl Weatherhead, 19
who is the Managing Economist for th is rule; and 20
Carol Kemker, who is the Region for Air Division 21
Deputy Director. 22

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So we're here today to listen to your 1

comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 2
pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 3
of these proposed rules on June 2nd of thi s year. 4

As you may know, power plants are the largest 5

source of CO2 emissions in the United States, 6

which account for about a third of all domestic 7
greenhouse gas emissions. 8
So the first of the rules is our proposed 9
Clean Power Plan for existing power pla nts. This 10
proposal consists of two main parts: state

11
specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 12
power plants; and then guidelines to help states 13
develop their plans for meeting those goals. 14
The proposal gives states flexibility in 15
determining how to m eet their goals. States will 16
choose what goes into their plans and show how 17
they will achieve the needed reductions to meet 18
their goals by 2030. 19
The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 20

address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 21

and reconstructed pow er plants

. 22

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This rule would set emissions limits for 1

two groups of power plants: those that make 2
physical or operational changes that increase the 3
plant's maximum achievable hourly rate of 4
emissions; and those that replace components to 5

such an extent that the new components exceed 50 6
percent of the capital costs of an entirely new, 7
comparable facility. 8
So, if you would like more details on 9
either of these rules, these proposed rules, 10

there are fact sheets outside near the 11
registration desk. 12
Today's hearing is one of four public 13
hearings across the country this week on the two 14
proposed rules. We've had tremendous interest in 15
each of the hearings, and I'd like to thank you 16
for taking the time out of your day to come join 17

us today, and we look forward to hear ing you 18
share your comments with us. 19
We do have a lot of people signed up for 20
both the morning and the afternoon today, and we 21

want to hear from all of them. So, before we get 22

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started, I'd like to go through a few 1
housekeeping items and ground rules that will 2
make the hearing run smoothly. 3
First, please be sure you have checked in 4
at the registration desk even if you are not 5
planning to speak today. And if you have signed 6
up to speak, online or by phone, but haven't told 7

us that you're here, please step o ut to the 8
registration desk and let the EPA staff know that 9
you have arrived. 10
Second, if you are a speaker, you were 11
given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 12

or Room B. And this is Room B. So, make sure 13
you're in the right room. And if not, this is a 14
good time to switch. 15
So, this is how today's hearing will 16
work. I will call the speakers up in pairs. If 17
only one of the two are here, I'll just ask the 18
one to join us. When your name is called, please 19

come to the table over here. And then, when I 20

call on you to speak, please state your name and 21
spell it for the court reporter. Your comments 22

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will be transcribed and included in the record of 1

comments for the proposed rule. 2
Each speaker will have five minutes to 3
give comments. We have a light dow n here to help 4
you know how much time you have left to speak. 5
So when the light turns from green to yellow, 6
that you means you have one minute remaining. 7
When it turns red, that's a signal to wrap up. 8
And it will flash red and beep when you have 9

spoken for five minutes, and that's time to stop. 10
So when you're finished speaking, please 11
remain at the table until the person next to you 12
has completed his or her testimony. 13
And we're here to listen to you today. 14
However, it's possible that a panel member may 15
ask you questions to clarify your comments. So, 16

then after we've gone through that, the two of 17
you have spoken, we've asked any clarifying 18
comments, then I'll call up the next pair of 19

speakers, and so on. 20
If you've brought written materials, a 21
written cop y of your testimony, please give that 22

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to the staff at the registration desk before you 1
leave today so that that can also be entered into 2

the record. 3
And again, because of the large number of 4
people who want to speak today, and to be fair to 5

everyone, we're going to strictly enforce the 6

five

- minute time limit. 7
If you have additional comments that you 8
would like to make, you can submit them in 9
writing. And I wanted to sort of close by 10
assuring you that we will give as much 11

consideration to the comments we re ceive in 12
writing as we do to comments that we receive at 13
public hearings like this one today. So, if you 14
have more that you would like to say than you can 15
get through in five minutes, please submit your 16

comments and we will review them. 17
There's still plen ty of time to get 18

written comments in. There are comment cards 19
available at the registration desk. And comments 20
must be received by October 16th of 2014. 21
We will put any written comments 22

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submitted today in the official docket for the 1

proposed rule. And instructions for submitting 2
written comments in other ways are available at 3
the table outside near the registration desk. 4
We're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 5
tonight. We've taken our lunch break. We'll 6
take a dinner break. And so people will have a 7

ch ance to get something to eat. The dinner break 8
is scheduled for five o'clock. We may need to 9
take occasional short breaks to swap panelists or 10

to take breaks as needed, and we'll keep you 11

posted on that as we move through the day. 12
If you have any questio ns, you should 13
please see the staff outside at the registration 14
desk, and someone will try to help you. 15
So, finally, I want to ask that each of 16

you to be respectful of everyone who speaks 17
today. We have people with a wide variety of 18

views in the audience, and we want to hear from 19
all of you. So we can do that and to be fair to 20
everyone, we ask that you all listen quietly. 21
And that means no applause, no audible reaction. 22

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We want to hear from everyone who has signed up 1

to speak. 2
So, thank you again for ta king the time 3

today, and let's get started. 4
So again, August Pres c hle and Vincent 5
Hall, if you'll join us. 6
I apologize if I pronounced your name 7
incorrectly. 8

MR. PRESCH LE: That's all right. 9

MR. HARVEY: We'll get the correct 10
pronunciation in a second. An d if we could start 11
with you, could you pronounce your name and spell 12
it for the reporter, please? 13

MR. PRES C HLE: Sure. My name is August 14

Pres c hle, that's P

- r

- e

- s

- c

- h

- l

- e. 15

Good afternoon. I'm here today to speak 16
for my grandchildren and their generation, who 17
are too young to speak for themselves. They will 18
surely benefit or suffer, depending on how strong 19
the carbon pollution rules are. 20
As a very second distant concern, I worry 21
about my family's economic wellbeing, as the real 22

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cost of climate change eats into my fixed 1
pension. Homeowner's insurance, health care, 2
food, and homeland security costs are already 3
increasing and will skyrocket if we do not act 4
quickly. 5
By way of background, I'm an industrial 6
engineer educated in business efficiency and 7

energy c onservation. I'm also a certified real 8

property manager. I was employed by the Port 9
Authority of New York and New Jersey from 1969 10
through 2002. Among other things, I did energy 11
conservation work at major metropolitan airports, 12
tunnels, bridges, contain er ports, a rapid 13
transit system, and the World Trade Center. 14
I learned a lot about electric power and 15
energy conservation there. 16

In retirement, I have led the 17
construction of green buildings for Habitat for 18
Humanity, earned Green Sanctuary Certification 19

f or my church, and attended professional 20
conferences on wind energy for the Southeast 21
region. 22

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Based on my professional work, as well as 1
my retirement activities, I want to tell you a 2
few important things. First, I want to urge you 3

not to back off the overa ll carbon reduction 4
targets in the draft documents. In fact, you 5
should increase the targets and advance the 6

target dates to make up for the years already 7
lost while the carbon pollution worked its way to 8

the Supreme Court. 9
Our country is too slow to chan ge because 10

of federal and state governments that are 11
dysfunctional and because of some major energy 12
companies, like Duke Energy, which are entrenched 13
in the past. 14

Their 20

- year integrated resource plan is 15
black with coal ash and dirty with a 10,000

- year 16

le gacy of nuclear waste. It's time for decisive 17
action now. And our strong country can do it. 18
But the EPA must hold fast to meaningful targets 19

for each and every state. 20

Second, there seems to be a technical 21
error in the draft plan. The EPA estimates that 22

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North Carolina can generate 4.4 percent of their 1

power from renewable sources by 2021, as I read 2

it. This is less ambitious than North Carolina's 3
own statewide renewable energy standard of 4
generating 12.5 percent by then. 5

The EPA should strengthen the st andard to 6
reflect North Carolina's current goal. More 7

about that later. 8

T hird, there are untapped energy

- source 9
energy savings almost everywhere you look. At 10

the World Trade Center, we installed more 11
efficient HVAC and high

- voltage power 12
distribution sys tems. There and at many other 13
Port Authority facilities, we changed out old 14
incandescent lights, installed modern tunnel 15
vehicle ventilation systems, automated building 16
management systems, automated toll collection 17
systems and a cogeneration plant. 18

There are only some of the significant 19
changes we made to improve customer service and 20
to reduce energy consumption on a cost

- effective 21
basis. And I'm proud to say the new World Trade 22

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Center is being built to state

- of

- the

- art 1
sustainability standards. 2

At Habita t for Humanity, in Forsythe 3
County in North Carolina, every one of the more 4
than 200 affordable homes built in the past few 5
years have met or exceeded green building 6

standards

-- affordable homes. At the same time, 7
the residential and commercial building industry 8
associations in North Carolina fight to roll back 9

those standards. We must be strong. 10

Fourth, I want to assure you that 11
dramatic energy savings can be achieved by the 12
private sector as well. This is being done by 13
progressive for

- profit companies across the 14
nation. One place that I recommend you look is 15

at Ceres, that's spelled C

- e

- r

- e

- s, which is a 16
nonprofit organization whose mission is to 17

mobilize investor businesses. 18
Companies like Allstate, Bank of America, 19
many others are already working to lead the pack 20

and set examples. 21
Finally, I want to remind you that Europe 22

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is well ahead of us. And China is moving up 1

fast. Renewable energy accounted for 2
approximately 31 percent of Germany's electricity 3
generation in the first half of the year of 2014

. 4

Let me repeat that. 5

MR. HARVEY: Yeah. We do need to wrap 6

up. 7
MR. PRESCHLE: Okay. Thirty

- one percent 8
of Germany's electricity. Their economy is 9

strong, et cetera. 10
So, let's get on with building a strong 11
green economy and jobs here in America, while 12

p rotecting displaced workers and their families 13

and their communities. 14

Thank you. 15

MR. HARVEY: Thank you. 16

We'll hear from our next speaker, then 17
we'll go to clarifying questions. 18
So, I'm not sure if you heard my 19
introductions. But if you could spell your name 20
for the reporter, and then we'll start the light. 21
MR. HALL: Okay. Hello. My name is 22

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Vincent, V

- i

- n

- c

- e

- n

- t, Hall, H

- a

- l

- l. 1
Today we are at the crossroads of making 2
a positive difference that is long

- lasting. This 3
difference will have an impact on people from all 4
socioeconomic backgrounds. However, if we 5
continue to ignore carbon pollution that's still 6
on this outdated and destructive path, that 7
impact will be greater on the poor and working

8

class poor. 9
I'm sure many of the working

- class poor, 10

def ined as workers whose income falls below the 11
poverty line

-- as an example, a family of four 12
living off less than $24,000 per year

-- would 13
like to be here today to voice their opinion. 14

Unfortunately, they do not have the luxury of 15
taking a day off from o ne of their two jobs. 16
Oftentimes, two jobs are required to make ends 17

meet. 18
To put this in perspective, we must 19

understand the gap between the have's and the 20

have

- not's is real and much deeper and wider than 21
the climate policymakers can imagine. Because 22

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t he poor don't have a voice at the decision

1
making table, their voices are never heard. 2
Again, they are impacted the most. 3
The single mothers, single fathers, and 4
that family of four whose children suffer from 5

asthma and other respiratory illnesses

-- 6

m ult iple trips to the emergency room because 7
their child can't breathe, combined with the high 8
cost of medications, is a huge financial burden 9

placed on an already

- strained income. 10
The elderly person living on a fixed 11

income can't afford an increase in his or her 12
power bill even if it's considered minimum or 13
below national average. Whether it's $20 or $2, 14
it negatively impacts the quality of life. By 15
the way, the clean climate plan will reduce 16
electricity by 8 percent by 2030. In 16 years, I 17
hope to benefit from that reduction; maybe even 18

before. 19
By now you have heard the many statistics 20
and figures regarding the health issues, the 21
negative economic impacts carbon pollution has on 22

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farming communities and the workforce. Dirty air 1

affects all of us. It doesn' t discriminate. We 2
all pay the price. 3
Clean air is a human right. It can make 4
a difference between that long

-- it can make a 5
positive difference that is long

- lasting by 6
narrowing that gap between the less

- fortunate and 7
the privileged few. 8

Teddy Roosevel t once said, "In any moment 9
of decision, the best you can do is the right 10
thing. The next

- best thing is the wrong thing. 11
And the worst thing you can do is nothing." We 12
all hope you do the right thing. Thank you. 13

MR. HARVEY: Thank you. 14

Do we have quest ions? 15
MS. KEMKER: I have a clarifying question 16

for Mr. Preschle. You referred to a North 17
Carolina plan. Could you tell me what plan that 18

is? 19

MR. PRESCHLE: Yeah. A number of years 20
ago, perhaps around 2008, North Carolina 21
legislature enacted laws with w hat they call 22

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renewable portfolio standards, or renewable 1
energy reps, briefly. And those reps have 2
graduated requirements for energy savings through 3

2020. 4

And they're embattled every year by the 5
legislature, but as long as they stick they are 6

stronger th an my understanding of your, the 7
current regulations in the draft rule. 8

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. 9

MR. PRESCHLE: Okay. 10

[Pause.] 11
MR. HARVEY: Our next two speakers, if 12

you'll come forward, are Jordan Thrasher and Beth 13

Bond. 14

[Pause.] 15
MR. HARVEY: Our timekeepe r had to step 16
out for a minute, so we're trying to teach 17
ourselves how to use the timer. We may have to 18

revert to

-- 19

MS. BOND: May I tell a funny story then 20
while we're waiting? 21

MR. HARVEY: Let's wait a second here. 22

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MS. BOND: Okay. 1

MR. HARVEY: We ca n also use alternative 2

technology. 3

MS. KEMKER: I have alternative 4
technology. Yeah, we're going to use alternative 5

technology. 6
MR. HARVEY: Okay. What we'll do, since 7
we don't have our timekeeper, is we'll tell you 8
when your time starts. We'll tell you when you 9
have a minute left. And then we'll tell you when 10
your time is up. 11

MS. BOND: I can do that. 12

MR. HARVEY: If you'll handle that. 13
So, who would like to begin? Mr. 14

Thrasher or Ms. Bond? 15

MS. BOND: I'll start. 16

MR. HARVEY: Okay. If you could start by 17
spelling your name for the reporter, recorder, 18

and then we'll start the time after that. 19
MS. BOND: So, my name is Beth Bond, B

- e

20

t

- h B

- o

- n

- d. And I have lots of sympathy for you 21

because I've watched you have to record all those 22

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names. 1
I am representi ng many, many hats today 2
as I come forward to speak. I was originally 3
scheduled to speak, and I felt like I didn't have 4
anything to add to the conversation, and so I 5
gave my slot away. So I appreciate the EPA 6
working with me to allow me to speak next to my 7

friend, Jordan Thrasher, which is what's sort of 8
ironic, because I said, "Wouldn't it be great if 9

we could speak together?" And now we are. 10
So, I own the largest online news site 11
for sustainable business and environmental policy 12

news in the Southeast. It's called Southeast 13

Green. We are an organization that's been around 14
for six years. 15

But I'm also an advocate at heart. So I 16
have done a lot of work in the Atlanta community 17
in regards to volunteering, including my most 18
proudest title, which is a board member for 19
Georgia Interfaith Power and Light, which I have 20
just finished a three

- year board service term 21

with. 22

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The reason I felt compelled to talk today 1

was because
, after listening to testimony all day 2
yesterday afternoon and this morning, there's two 3

p laces that I think that we're sort of

-- there's 4
a gap in what we've been discussing. 5
The first gap is waste. And as a person 6
of faith and a person who believes in 7
environmental stewardship and community 8
stewardship, that waste that we have not been 9

talki ng about today is very important to be 10

covered. 11

What we don't think about as Americans as 12
we hear about production of electricity is how 13
much inherent waste is in the system. Whether 14
it's from energy efficiency in buildings or 15
whether it's talking about generation of 16
electricity on the grid, there is so much waste 17

that we don't consider. 18

There

-- also, I just want to say really 19
quickly that anything I cite I will be submitting 20
written comments, and I will provide the citation 21

links in the comments. 22

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There is plenty of stuff on the Internet 1
talking about the substation transmission of 5 2
percent loss from line to line. But 3
unfortunately, what they don't talk about is the 4
line loss we have from generating electricity 5

from the substation to the end user, which has 6
been cited as high as 40 percent. 7

So we have to produce 40 percent more 8
electricity to make up for this line loss. And I 9

don't think that a lot of American citizens 10
recognize that we are doing this much waste. 11
That is why distributed generation is s o much 12
more powerful and helps us in regards to meeting 13
our targets that have been discussed. 14
Also, there is so much waste as just 15
general Americans, which is why the energy 16
efficiency side of this discussion is so 17
important. I'm going to tell one of my f avorite 18
stories that we heard from GIPL, which is Georgia 19
Interfaith Power and Light. 20
GIPL does church audits and does energy 21
efficiency audits. And there was a church, that 22

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will remain nameless to protect the innocent, 1
that saved $35,000 by making one si m ple change in 2
their operation. 3
They had a building, and on Wednesday 4
mornings, there was a group of ladies of a 5
particular age who appreciate their air 6
conditioning, which I certainly resonate with. 7
And they were meeting on Wednesdays, and they 8

were runn ing the building all 24/7 for this one 9
meeting on Wednesday mornings. 10

And so when GIPL went in and did the 11
audit, we said, "How about moving the ladies to 12
another building?" And sure enough, they moved 13
the ladies to the other building, and that church 14

saw $35,000 a year in savings in their operation. 15
Well, many people of faith forget

-- to 16

connect this

-- is that when you're spending 17
money on electricity, you are not spending money 18
on missions. So, as a person of faith, it's very 19
important, through some s imple education and 20

steps , that we educate churches about energy 21
efficiency. 22

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But I am one person. Even with the 1
website, I'm still one person. So it's important 2

for the EPA to make sure that we have these 3
standards, not to punish or to penalize the coal 4
producers, who will still have jobs, contrary to 5

some of the facts that have been stated here on 6

the stage over the past two days, but so that we 7

can reduce our waste. 8
If we are a nation of thoughtful, 9
intelligent, reasonable people, we all understand 10

that waste is bad w hether it's waste in our food 11
or whether it is waste in our generation of 12
electricity. 13
So I think it's really important that we 14

take these renewable standards that are presented 15
in the plan and the fourth building block, which 16
is energy effi ciency, and make sure that those 17
protected, and eliminate the waste that we have 18
in our society in regards to electricity 19
production, and still forward and grow our 20

economy to be strong. 21
I finished early. That's a miracle. 22

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MS. KEMKER: You did. 1

MR. HARVEY : Thank you. 2
Okay. Mr. Thrasher, again if you could 3
spell your name, and then we'll start the timer. 4

MR. THRASHER: Good afternoon. My name 5

is Reverend Jordan Thrasher, J

- o

- r

- d

- a

- n T

- h

- r

- a

6

s

- h

- e

- r. I'm an elder in the United Methodist 7

Church. I work w ith Georgia

-- 8

MR. HARVEY: Could you hold on one 9

second? 10
MS. KEMKER: It just decided to

-- start 11
talking. 12
[Laughter.] 13

MR. HARVEY: There we go. Sorry. If you 14
could begin again. 15

MR. THRASHER: That's fine. Like I said, 16

I'm an elder in the United Meth odist Church. I 17
work closely with Georgia Interfaith Power and 18
Light. I also work with the national 19
organization of the United Methodist Church, 20

called Caretakers for Creation. 21

At the outset, I want to be clear from my 22

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testimony that I am in favor of red ucing carbon 1
emissions from power plants, and so I am in favor 2

of the EPA's carbon reduction standards that are 3
being proposed. 4
And in a testimony, you're supposed to 5

tell the truth about what you have seen and know. 6
So that is my ultimate goal here today . I am 7

here because I have been asked to bear witness to 8
my faith, which I believe is intricately and 9
intimately intertwined with creation. 10
The blight of climate change has affected 11

us all in extreme weather events, but it 12
particularly affects the poor wi th higher rates 13
of respiratory illness and other diseases because 14
of their proximity to power plants that spread 15

carbon into the air. 16

This is a matter of faith to me. When 17

Jesus was asked by a group of lawyers what the 18
most important commandment was, he a droitly 19
answered to love God and to love our neighbor. 20
And after saying that, one of those lawyers, 21
always looking for a loophole, because when you 22

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find the loophole, you find the shortcut from 1
doing what is right

-- one of those lawyers asked 2
the questio n, "Who is my neighbor?" And Jesus 3
tells them the parable of the good Samaritan. 4

I won't go through the whole parable, 5
I'll skip to the end. But the Samaritan, an 6
outcast, is called "good" and is the one who is a 7
neighbor because he sees someone who is p oor and 8
beaten, and he did what he could to help. 9

And those who are supposed to help, those 10
in the positions of power, must have had a 11
significant financial stake in the status quo, 12
because they ignored the poor, beaten man and 13
walked on by, thinking that was just the cost of 14
doing business. 15
Our planet is poor and beaten, and the 16
poor among us continue to be beaten by our 17
current environmental practices. Kids are 18
choking on the very air they breathe because of 19
the pollution that we have put into the air. And 20
I keep saying "we" because I know I am complicit 21
in this. I use energy just like everybody else, 22

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and I try to conserve and not be wasteful. 1

But this makes me even more motivated to 2
see large, systematic change that we can do as a 3
community to care f or the poor among us and to 4

love our God by its primary expression of loving 5
our neighbor, especially those who can't breathe. 6

I'm called to speak on behalf of the poor 7

as a preacher and to speak for those who do not 8

have a voice, whether it's constricted by 9
economics or by air quality. Because how can 10
someone talk if they can't breathe? 11
We all are suffering at our inability or 12
intransience to take effective action following 13
the very commands of God in caring for creation. 14

It's been well documented that o ther countries 15
have found a way to do this and have been 16
successful in doing so. Our inability to follow 17
God in this way reduces our ability to follow 18
God's command to love our neighbor. 19
I support these carbon restrictions for 20

that reason, but also beca use I am a Methodist. 21

John Wesley , our founder, found his first mission 22

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work in going to coal

- mining camps and providing 1

services to them. He established schools for the 2

children, even learned as much medicine he could 3

as a preacher, because people were sick from 4
working there. 5

He also taught that we're constantly 6
moving forward in our faith to perfection. But 7

we are not there yet, but by the grace of God, we 8

will be. 9

This carbon restriction standard is a 10
giant step toward perfection. I believe it is 11

go ing to have the opposite effect that the 12
naysayers report it is going to have. I believe 13
that in our State of Georgia, with our 14
educational system and the fact that we have one 15
of the best engineering schools in the planet 16
right down the road, that we wil l come up with 17

new and innovative ideas and solutions because we 18

will have to. 19
We are losing our soul over the 20
destruction of our planet. And with these 21
restrictions in place, I believe you see a 22

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creative and economic boom as a result. 1

Sadly, the urgency of rising oceans or 2
extinction of species God created, the 3
proliferation of super

- storms, the constricti on 4

of children's and the elderlie s ' lungs, and the 5
rising cancer rates have still not yet 6
necessitated us to take meaningful steps in the 7
reduction of p ollution and the caring for 8
creation in our country. 9
So it is my hope that this will change 10
that. And then we will all be able to say, as 11
the good Samaritan can, "I have loved my 12
neighbor." And I know that by my being here 13
today, I am trying to do everyt hing I can for my 14
neighbor, and particularly my three daughters. 15
Thank you for your time, and thank you 16
for hearing our testimony. 17

MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much, Mr. 18

Thrasher. 19
Do we have questions? 20
MS. KEMKER: No questions. Thank you. 21

MR. HARVEY: Com ments? 22

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[No audible response.] 1

MR. HARVEY: I'm curious about Georgia 2
Interfaith Power and Light. How many houses of 3
worship are involved in that across the state? 4

Do you know, roughly? 5

MS. BOND: Remember, I'm a board member. 6
So it is roughly about 600 congregations across 7

the state. 8

MR. HARVEY: I see. 9

MS. BOND: And they've conducted enough 10

audits to reduce carbon

-- and this is basically 11
through energy efficiency audits

-- by 11 million 12
pounds in the 10 years of its history. 13

MR. HARVEY: Hm. 14

MS. BON D: Eleven million tons, sorry

-- 15

tons. 16

MR. HARVEY: Thank you. 17
Other questions from our panelists? 18
[No audible response.] 19

MR. HARVEY: And we have the next ones. 20

So, thank you very much. You can step down. 21
Our next speaker is, I want to say Marita 22

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Noon . We don't have someone paired up. And so, 1
this is an opportunity for someone to volunteer 2
if they wish to speak now, to join us at this 3
time. So if you'd like to join us, please step 4
up. Is Marita Noon here? 5

MS. NOON: I need another couple of 6

minutes . So I'd like to speak

-- 7
MR. HARVEY: You're saying you need more 8

time? 9

MS. NOON: Yeah. 10
I'd like a couple more minutes. Can I be 11

next? 12

MR. HARVEY: Sure. I guess. 13
So, I'm going to ask for two volunteers. 14
Is there someone else who's speaking soon who 15
would like to take advantage of this opportunity 16
right now? 17

[Pause.] 18
MS. NOON: I'll be right back. 19

MR. HARVEY: Okay. 20
Well, then, why don't we begin with you? 21
So if you could start by telling us your name and 22

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spelling it for our court reporter, when you 're 1

ready. 2

MR. PATRICK CAGLE: My name is Patrick 3

Cagle, P

- a

- t

- r

- i

- c

- k C

- a

- g

- l

- e. I'm Executive 4
Director of JobKeeper Alliance, a nonprofit 5
partnership between the business and labor 6
community, whose mission is to support the 7
creation and protection of qu ality middle

- class 8
jobs throughout the Southeast. 9
When labor and business stand together on 10
an issue, it sends a powerful message. Our 11
message is clear: EPA's proposed rules limiting 12

carbon are all cost and no benefit. These rules 13
will cost us a signifi cant number of quality 14

middle

- class jobs, and it will raise the cost of 15
electricity for families, businesses, and 16

industrial customers. 17
The American economy is not yet fully 18

recovered from the worst recession since the 19
Great Depression. We should be imple menting 20
policies that foster economic growth and job 21
creation, not new regulations that will make it 22

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harder for working families to attain middle

1
class stability. 2
Quality high

- paying coal

- mining and 3

power

- generation jobs will be some of the first 4
jobs lost if the EPA does not modify the proposed 5

CO2 rules. The United Mine Workers and IBEW 6
members have explained during their comments that 7
these are not just jobs. It's the profession 8
they've invested most, if not all, of their 9
working lives into. 10
These jobs have allowed them to provide a 11
stable life for their family, and they cannot be 12
easily replaced. Unfortunately, energy sector 13
jobs represent just a small fraction of the jobs 14

that will be lost or never created if EPA 15
implements these proposed rules in th eir current 16

form. 17

In most Southern states, the 18
manufacturing sector has been the backbone of our 19
ongoing economic recovery efforts. The South's 20
manufacturing renaissance is a result of 21
affordable and reliable electricity. However, 22

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the carbon rules propos ed by this agency will 1
raise cost and make our energy grid less 2
reliable, and are not compatible with the 3
manufacturing economy our states rely on. 4
In its simplest form, EPA's carbon limits 5
are a tax on energy that will be added to the 6
production cost of a ll American

- made goods, 7
making it even more difficult for domestic 8
manufacturers to compete in a global economy. 9
Finally, I appreciate the opportunity to 10
share my concerns with EPA at today's hearing. 11
But I must express my extreme disappointment that 12

many of the men and women whose lives and 13
livelihoods will be most affected by these 14
proposed regulations did not have an opportunity 15
to speak at this hearing. 16
Many of the hardworking people I 17

represent were turned away because all of the 18
speaking slots had be en filled. Many more 19
workers do the jobs that keep our lights on and 20
our country moving. They can't take two or three 21
days off work, drive hundreds of miles just to 22

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tell you how important their job is to their 1
family, their community, and everyone else t hat 2
expects the lights to come on when they flip a 3

switch. 4
We believe EPA Region 4 should hold a 5
hearing in each state they serve. We also urge 6
the EPA to extend the public comment period and 7
create additional opportunities for those who 8

will be the most affected by the proposed carbon 9

rules to have their voice heard. 10
On behalf of the working men and women 11
whose livelihoods are on the line, I'm asking EPA 12
to carefully reconsider the tremendous direct and 13
indirect economic consequences of this proposed 14

rule

. 15

Thank you. 16

MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Cagle. 17

Could you

-- again, I think you had a 18
brief statement at the beginning about your 19
alliance. Could you explain again who the 20

members are? 21

MR. PATRICK CAGLE: It's between business 22

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and labor. We work with t he IBEW members, United 1
Mine Workers, steel workers, and the companies 2
that those union groups work with. 3

MR. HARVEY: Thank you. 4
Any other questions? 5
[No audible response.] 6
MR. HARVEY: Okay. Hearing none, thank 7

you very much. 8

MR. PATRICK CAGLE: Thank y ou. 9

[Pause.] 10
[Inaudible interjection.] 11
MR. HARVEY: We will let you know when 12
your time is up. 13

MS. NOON: Thank you. 14
MR. HARVEY: When you're ready, if you 15

could spell your name for the court reporter, and 16

then we'll start the clock. 17

MS. NOON: Thank you. My name is Marita 18

Noon. That is M

- a

- r

- i

- t

- a, last name just like 19

lunchtime, N

- o

- o

- n. 20
MR. HARVEY: Thank you. You can begin. 21

MS. NOON: Thank you. Today I have come 22

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to address the EPA's proposed rule regarding 1
carbon emissions from existing power plants . I 2
speak on behalf of myself and representing 3

thousands of members and supporters of the two 4
nonprofit organizations for which I am executive 5
director. I am also representing the Washington, 6

D.C.

- based group, Committee for a Constructive 7

Tomorrow, and i ts 60,000 supporters. 8

I've listened to the well

- intentioned 9

pleas from many who have begged you, the EPA, to 10
take even stronger action than this plan 11
proposes. An attorney's testimony yesterday told 12
about seeing carbon pollution every day from his 13

36th

- fl oor office a few blocks from here, where 14

he looks out over a smog

- covered city. 15
The passion of these commenters 16
supersedes their knowledge, as most of the issues 17
addressed are not something caused by carbon 18
dioxide, a clear, colorless gas that each of us 19

b reathe out and plants breathe in. 20

Carbon dioxide is a natural and essential 21
part of the environment with massive, unknown 22

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quantities of carbon dioxide emitted each year 1

from natural sources such as volcanoes. Were you 2

able to eliminate carbon dioxide from every 3

industrial source in the United States, it would 4
have virtually no impact on global carbon dioxide 5

emissions. 6

I understand the concerns over true smog 7
and pollution. I grew up in Southern California, 8
graduating from high school in 1976. At that 9

ti me, we had made a mess of our environment. We 10
had polluted the air and water. Cleaning up our 11
collective act was an important public policy 12

issue. 13
But that pollution, that smog, has 14
largely been cleaned up. Utilities have spent 15

hundreds of billions of d ollars on scrubbers and 16
other highly technical equipment to successfully 17
remove the vast majority of the particulates. 18
People often see a billowing white cloud coming 19

from the stacks at a coal

- fueled power plant and 20
confuse it with pollution, when it is r eally H2O, 21

water in the form of steam. 22

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Depending on the time of year or the time 1
of day, it may be more or less visible. The 2
weather conditions may make it settle like fog 3

until the sun burns it off, and this, I believe, 4
is mistaken for pollution. 5

This ru le is not about pollution. It's 6
about shutting down coal

- fueled power plants and 7
killing jobs and raising electricity rates, both 8
of which punish people who can least afford it. 9
But plenty of others have addressed the economic 10
impact, so I won't take mor e of my time on that 11
topic. 12

But I do want to address the 13
constitutionality of the proposed plan, as it 14
does exactly what the Supreme Court admonish ed 15

the EPA about on June 23rd. 16
Justice Antonin Scalia, for the majority, 17
wrote this about the Tailoring Rule decision: 18
"Were we to recognize the authority claimed by 19
the EPA in the Tailoring Rule, we would deal a 20

severe blow to the Cons titution's separation of 21

powers . . . The power of executing the laws

. . 22

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. does not include a power to revise clear 1

statutory terms that turn out not to work in 2
practice." 3
Yet this is exactly what this proposed 4
plan will do. Later in the decision, Scalia 5
says, "When an agency claims to discover in a 6

long

- extant statute an unheralded power to 7
regulate 'a significant portion of th e American 8
economy' . . . we typically greet its 9
announcement with a measure of skepticism. We 10
expect Congress to speak clearly if it wishes to 11
assign an agency decisions of vast 'economic and 12
political significance.'" 13
I believe, on these grounds, this pl an 14
must not go forward. It is one more example of 15

executive overreach. I fear that if it does, 16
America will pay a dear price. 17
This hearing was scheduled to take place 18

down the street at the Sam Nunn Federal Center. 19
However, it was moved due to a power o utage. 20
Note: Business cannot be done without power. If 21
you were able to move this hearing in a reduced

22

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power environment, businesses will move to places 1
where they have access to energy that is 2
effective, efficient, and economical. They will 3

move, as m any have already done, to places with 4
far looser environmental policies, and the 5
perceived gain will be lost. 6
Thinking that what we do in the United 7
States will have an a serious impact on global 8

carbon dioxide emissions is like thinking that 9
declaring a n o

- pee section in the swimming pool 10
will keep the water urine

- free. 11
I end with a quote from the smog

- viewing 12
attorney, who closed with, "I am hopeful my new 13
grandchildren, who will live in the twenty

- second 14
century, will enjoy a world that my grandparents, 15
born in the nineteenth century, would recognize." 16
If this plan is passed, he may get his 17
wish. His grandparents' world contained none of 18

the energy

- based modern conveniences or medical 19

miracles we consider standard and essential 20

today, let alone those yet to be developed or 21
discovered by the twenty

- second century. 22

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Remember: The countries with the best 1

human health and the most material wealth are 2
those with the highest energy consumption. 3
America needs energy that is abundant, available, 4

and affordable. 5

Thank you. 6

MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Ms. Noon. 7
Any clarifying questions? 8
MR. WEATHERHEAD: You said you were 9
executive director of two nonprofits. Did you 10

say the names of them? 11

MS. NOON: Yes, I edited those to save me 12

minutes. I am the Executive Direct or of the 13
Citizens Alliance for Responsible Energy, and 14
Energy Makes America Great, Inc. I figured you'd 15
ask, and then I could get it in. 16
[Laughter.] 17

MR. HARVEY: Are those based here in 18

Atlanta? 19
MS. NOON: No. They're based in 20

Albuquerque. But we deal with energy issues 21
statewide, region

- wide, and nationwide. 22

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MR. HARVEY: Thank you. Okay. Thank you 1
for joining us. 2

MS. NOON: Thank you. 3

[Pause.] 4
MR. HARVEY: Our next speaker is Randall 5

Morris. 6

[Pause.] 7

MR. HARVEY: Good day. 8

MR. MORRIS: Good afternoo n. 9

MR. HARVEY: If you could spell your name 10

for the reporter, and then we'll get started. 11

MR. MORRIS: Randall Morris, R

- a

- n

- d

- a

- l

12

l M

- o

- r

- r

- i

- s. 13

MR. HARVEY: Ready when you are. 14

MR. MORRIS: Thank you for the 15
opportunity to be here today. My name is Ran dall 16

Morris, President of Morris Farms. Our farm, 17

owned and operated by my brother Howard and 18
myself, is located in Uvalda, Georgia. 19
My family has farmed in Montgomery County 20
since the 1800s. We currently farm around 2,500 21

acres that consist of Vidalia o nions, cotton, 22

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peanuts, corn, green beans, and a small beef

1

cattle herd. 2
I've had the privilege of serving on the 3
Autumn Hall Electric Membership Cooperative's 4
Board of Director for 26 years, and currently 5
serve as Vice president. I've been a member 6

since 1981, and the family is still listing out 7
the house where my grandfather lived when the 8
lights came on for rural Georgia, thanks to our 9
electric cooperative. 10

As a long

- term director, I know that 11
Autumn Hall EMC does everything possible to keep 12

electric ra tes low for my farm and for every one 13
of our members. Operating a farm in today's 14
business environment is a challenge. Modern 15
equipment, new technology, labor costs, and 16
governmental concerns are among the issues that 17
make it seem as if our input cost s a re like an 18

escalator that only goes up. 19
Energy costs are a huge concern in my 20
profession. Direct costs for electrical power 21
for our irrigation systems, patch fume equipment, 22

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warehouses, lighting, and office spaces account 1

for almost 10 percent of our annu al expenses. 2
It's much more complicated when you dig a 3
little deeper, though, because energy costs 4
affect almost every facet of our operation. Our 5
fertilizers require heat and energy to formulate. 6
Our chemicals require energy for manufacture. 7
Our equipm ent is powered by diesel. The products 8
we buy have to be delivered to our facilities. 9

And the products that we produce have to be 10

delivered to the end user. 11
To be viable as a farming business, all 12
of these energy costs have to ultimately be 13

passed on to the end user, who buys our onions, 14
who throws one of our steaks on the grill, or who 15
wants a neatly pressed cotton shirt so that they 16
will look nice at a hearing like this today. 17
And the iron used to press that shirt 18

also works a little better with a littl e 19
electricity to make it more efficient. 20
My point is that these EPA carbon 21
emission rules will not only increase my energy 22

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costs and my margins, which are already razor

1

thin. These rules will also affect all those 2

folks that the American farmer works to f eed and 3

clothe. 4
The additional problem when prices 5
necessarily rise is that my farm will be less 6
competitive with farmers in other parts of the 7

world who do not face the same restrictions. 8
Ironically, even many folks who espouse 9
views that they think are e nvironmentally 10
friendly will still make their purchases with 11
their pocketbook in mind. The result is a 12
purchase of a cheaper product from a county with 13
nowhere near the environmental protections under 14

which we work. 15
There's not a person in this room that 16

cares more about the environment than me, not 17
just for myself and for my business, but for my 18
family, my community, and the g enerations that 19

come after me. 20
You see, when you grow up on a farm like 21
I have, and like so many of my peers in electric 22

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co

- ops in Georgia and across our country, you 1
learn early on that you've got a responsibility 2
to leave things better than when you found them

. 3

B ecause when you make your living off the very 4
land that you live on, you will learn very fast 5
that doing anything else is not sustainable and 6
it's morally irresponsible to not be a good 7

steward of our land. 8
After all, the same pond that provides 9
irrigation water for our onions provides a really 10

good spot to teach Laughton and Maddox, my two 11
grandkids, how to catch a catfish. And it 12
provides a favorite site for great times with all 13
the family as we enjoy some of the natural beauty 14
that God has provided for us to enjoy. 15

I've been told that some folks have made 16
some comments at these listening sessions that 17
anyone who is opposi ng these EPA regulations on 18
greenhouse gases is somehow being unfaithful to 19
protecting God's creation. 20
My family and I and most of my neighbors 21
and community are faithful members of churches in 22

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our area, and are as committed to protecting 1

God's creation as anyone. But I suggest we also 2
have a moral responsibility to speak out for 3
people who are unable to afford increases in the 4
cost of energy in their homes. You simply cannot 5

have a serious discussion about environmental 6
stewardship without focusing also on physical 7
stewardship. And the two subjects are not 8
mutually exclusive. 9
As a Georgian and a taxpaying American 10
citizen who works hard to provide for my family 11
and support my community, I'm very troubled with 12

EPA's blatant regulatory overreach. At the e xact 13
same time that the EPA is attempting to regulate 14

every puddle of water that pools on my farm under 15
the Clean Water Act, the EPA is now unilaterally 16
attempting to expand its authority under the 17
Clean Air Act in ways far beyond Congress ever 18

intended. 19

I do not believe that the EPA has the 20
authority to do either, and have added my voice 21
to countless Americans asking Congress to rein in 22

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the EPA. 1
In closing, I urge you to reject this 2
proposal and work with electric cooperatives on a 3

more balanced approach. 4
And thank you for the opportunity to 5

speak to you here today. 6
MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Morris. 7
Any questions? 8
[No audible response.] 9

MR. HARVEY: Thank you. 10
All right. We do not have any names at 11
this point. We can take volunteers. Anyone who 12

wishes to speak right now is welcome to join us. 13
[Inaudible interjections.] 14
MR. HARVEY: Bob Reese, please join us. 15

[Pause.] 16
MR. REESE: Finally get to go after Mr. 17
Morris talking about the farms and the water. 18

MR. HARVEY: Great. Before we start, if 19

you could spell your name for the reporter, that 20

would be great. 21

MR. REESE: James, J

- a

- m

- e

- s, Robert, R

22

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o

- b

- e

- r

- t, Reese, R

- e

- e

- s

- e, III. 1
MR. HARVEY: Thank you. You may begin. 2

MR. REESE: We talk about clean energy, 3
and my definition of "clean energy" would be 4

en ergy that wouldn't destroy the land, the water, 5
or the air. Wouldn't you agree? 6

MS. KEMKER: Could I ask you to speak 7

into the mic? 8

MR. HARVEY: It's a little hard to hear. 9
MR. REESE: If you were going to define 10

"clean energy," that would be an energy so urce 11
that wouldn't destroy the air, the land, or the 12
water. By definition, wouldn't that be "clean 13

energy"? 14

[Pause.] 15
MR. HARVEY: The way that this works is, 16
we're going to listen to you. It's not going to 17

be a back

- and

- forth kind of colloquy. So if you 18

could make your statement, we'll be happy to hear 19

it. 20

MR. REESE: Got you. 21
I designed a system for farmers to 22

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protect their land, and it produces power, and it 1
protects the water. And we can do this without 2
having to frack and without poisoning our water

. 3
The problem with the fracking is that 4
they're not accountable for anything that they do 5
in taking this energy source. They're exempt 6

from the Clean Air and the Clean Water Act. And 7
the reason the EPA is raising it and you think 8
it's going to be attacki ng emissions of methane 9
is merely for those gas wells. 10
But in designing those, we can also do 11

clean energy and not have a war on coal. We can 12

use the Reclamation Act to take those lands that 13

are there and repurpose them to build molten salt 14

plants. That will make coal companies still able 15
to sell energy, and we can build these molten 16

salt plants to run off the sun and store the heat 17
of the sun in molten salt vats that can produce 18

power 24/7, totally clean. 19
The land is already destroyed, but by 20
doing this, we protect lands in that economic 21
sensitive area and protect jobs, because, you 22

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know, we have a very

-- that's a very economic 1
sensitive area in Virginia. It's by converting 2
into molten salt plants, you continue to keep 3

employment and produce clean energ y and follow 4

these goals. 5
So I urge that they look into using that 6
to produce jobs and keep jobs. Convert coal 7
energy into a clean

- energy company. So that way, 8
we don't have to lose jobs. 9

MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Reese. 10
Any questions? 11
[No audible resp onse.] 12

MR. HARVEY: Okay. Thank you very much. 13

I do not have names in front of me. So 14
again, any volunteers, people who are waiting and 15
would like to go now? You're welcome to come up. 16

[Pause.] 17
MR. HARVEY: What we may do is, since I'm 18
not seeing any vo lunteers, we're going to take a 19
short break and check with the registration desk. 20

And we'll reconvene in about two minutes or so. 21

Thank you. 22

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[Recess taken from 1:55 to 2:00 p.m.] 1

AFTERNOON SESSION (continued) 2

PANEL NUMBER 3 3

MS. KEMKER: Good afternoon an d welcome 4

back to the afternoon session of our Clean Power 5
Plan listening session

-- not listening, but 6
public hearing. We really appreciate you being 7
here and sharing with us your thoughts and 8

comments. 9

We will resume now, and I would like to 10
just remind folks that I will call people up in 11
pairs. And come up and speak. You'll have five 12
minutes with the timer. At one minute remaining, 13
the yellow light will come on. And then when 14
your time is up, the beeper

-- the red light and 15
the beeper will sound. 16

So , with that, we'll resume with Ross 17

Gordon and Steven Jackson. 18

[Pause.] 19
MS. KEMKER: And just a reminder for 20
folks, before you begin your comments, if you 21
will say and spell your name for the record. 22

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MR. GORDON: Hi. My name is Ross Gordon. 1

That's R

- o

- s

- s

- G

- o

- r

- d

- o

- n. And I teach high 2
school policy debate at the Atlanta Urban Debate 3

League. 4
It isn't clear to me, even to myself, 5
what business I have speaking at this hearing. 6
I'm not an environmental expert. I'm not an 7
economist or engineer. I do not w ork for any 8
advocacy organization, nor do I speak for any 9
group of people. I've never lived in a community 10
in which the air quality was directed affected by 11

a nearby coal plant. 12
I am young. I am inexperienced in 13
politics. I am generally ignorant with r espect 14
to the political pressures which affect EPA 15

decision

- making and the sort of advocacy the EPA 16
might find persuasive at this hearing. 17
In nine years as a student and educator 18
in policy debate, however, I think it is possible 19
that I know something about policy. What I think 20

I've learned is this: No amount of statistical 21
knowledge, no university

- certified expertise, no 22

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title or position of power renders one as an 1
objective arbitrator of policy decisions. 2

I think this is true for at least two 3

reasons: F irst, that human beings are inherently 4
flawed and human knowledge is always incomplete 5
and uncertain. Second, that we never speak for 6
everyone. None of us is a voice of universal 7

reason. We are thrown into circumstances of 8

class, race, gender, culture, and religion, which 9
irrevocably inform and alter our perspectives. 10
Yet policy decisions are made on behalf 11
of everyone by a very few. I think it is 12
impossible to do this. But this is what it means 13
to be a policymaker. 14

When I reflect honestly on my 15

relati onship to global climate change, I feel 16
unable to come to two provisional conclusions: 17
First, although the vast majority of science 18
suggests that climate change is in fact real, 19

human

- caused, and unlikely to be slowed by 20
negative climate feedbacks, this c onclusion must 21

be uncertain in the face of the incredible 22

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complexity of the earth's climate. 1

Second, as a white middle

- class American, 2
it is very possible that climate change may never 3
directly affect me as anything more than an 4

annoyance. I do not know t he executives and 5
lobbyists at fossil fuel companies, but I suspect 6

that t heir reasoning may be similar. 7

As often seems to be the case with those 8
in positions of power, they're in a position to 9
lobby for policies guaranteed to benefit them in 10

the short ter m, while displacing the long

- term 11
risk of climate change onto those both in the 12

United States and around the world who lack the 13
resources to adapt to rising sea levels, 14
droughts, and natural disasters. 15

In the documentary, "The Yes Men F ix the 16

World," two a ctivists posing as Halliburton 17
executives present a fake product called the 18

Survivalball to an insurance convention. The 19
product, which is a comically oversized 20
inflatable sphere that fully engulfs the wearer, 21

is marketed as an all

- purpose personal safety 22

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device in the event of apocalyptic climate 1

change. 2
As the activists' presentation commences, 3
a graphic is shown depicting businesspeople
, 4
wearing the Survivalball, jumping from their 5
high

- rise offices safely to the pavement below. 6
After the presentation, several businesspeople 7
approached the activists to earnestly discuss the 8
product. One member of the audience muses that, 9
"although the Survivalball would be expensive to 10

market, the"

-- and I'm quoting here

-- "people 11

who would really need it or want it would find, " 12
quoting again, "that price is no object." 13
When we talk about climate adaptation and 14
perhaps even climate mitigation, I think we are 15
implicitly endorsing this dystopian future

-- the 16

very wealth y escaping the apocalypse in their 17
fancy, expensiv e Survivalballs. For those for 18
whom price is no object, this risk may be 19
acceptable. We will have done enough. 20
As the black population in New Orleans 21
was abandoned by its government in the midst of 22

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Hurricane Katrina, and as Hurricane Sandy left 1

thousands of Haitians homeless and millions 2
hungry, it should be clear where the real risks 3
of climate change lie. 4
I do not know honestly if these events 5
were caused by climate change. I do know that, 6
insofar as climate change threatens to cause 7

similar events in the future, these impacts will 8
continue to be felt mostly by the poor and 9
dispossess ed. 10

As these crises unfold, those with 11
relative wealth and power will continue to have 12

debates in air

- conditioned conference rooms, 13
high

- rise offices, and insulated univers ity 14

classrooms about whether fossil fuel pro fits can 15
be risked, in hope of a ffecting an admittedly 16
complex, abstract, and uncertain thing called 17

climate. 18

I am glad and grateful that the EPA has 19
put forward this proposal for the Clean Power 20

Plan. I was tol d that EPA's primary interest at 21
this hearing was in discussion of technical 22

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details. Of course, these technical details are 1
in many ways crucial. But I think they can also 2
obscure a far more straightforward reality. 3
However the technical aspects of this 4
particular proposal resolve, I do not think we 5
should hesitate from stating the simple and 6
brutal truth. Wherever carbon is regulated, coal 7

will lose and the future victims of climate 8
change will benefit. Whether we are policymakers 9
or climate change ac tivists, I think this formula 10
must remain at the core of our analysis and 11
political strategy. 12

Thank you. 13

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. 14
Questions? 15
[No audible response.] 16

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. 17

Mr. Jackson. 18

MR. JACKSON: Yes. Steven Jackson, S

- t

19

e

- v

- e

- n J

- a

- c

- k

- s

- o

- n. 20
Thank you for having me here this 21

afternoon. I'm the Senior Vice President and 22

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Chief Operating Officer of the Municipal Electric 1
Authority of Georgia, or we're commonly known as 2

MEAC Power. 3

We were created solely to serve 49 member 4
public power c ommunities in Georgia with reliable 5

and affordable wholesale power. We operate 6
without profit. We have no shareholders. So all 7
of our costs for supply go directly to the 8

electric bills of the customers of the 49 9

communities that we serve. 10

It is on behal f of the citizens of these 11
49 communities that I provide these comments 12
today, for they are the ones that will bear the 13
impact of these rules. 14

The regulatory approach on these proposed 15
rules goes well beyond the limits of Section 16

111(d) of the Clean Air Ac t, and errs in its 17
approach in many ways. The proposed rule 18
infringes on state and local authority to 19
regulate the utility business and the utility's 20
ability to plan and operate the electric system 21

in a reliable and cost

- effective manner. 22

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Some of our spec ific issues include that 1
the proposed rule appears designed to achieve a 2
30 percent national reduction in tons of CO2, 3
first in 2005 for the power sector as a whole. 4
This is not what Section 111(d) requires. 5
Section 111(d) only authorizes standards of 6

pe rformance on individual, affected sources. 7

The proposed rule mandates state goals 8
that go far beyond setting standards on the 9
affected sources, employing a best system of 10
emission reduction which extends its reach beyond 11

the fence

- line of its affected sour ces. 12
The 6 percent emission rate reduction 13

goal

- setting for coal units is applied across the 14

board, but it's not achievable on all units. 15
Requiring natural gas combined cycles to operate 16
at 70 percent capacity factor for a goal is not 17

an emissions standar d. It increases gas 18
emissions and does not consider reliability, 19
cost, or ownership. 20
Including under

- construction new nuclear 21

and at

- risk existing nuclear in goal

- setting is 22

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not authorized under Section 111(d). And 1
including renewable and energy efficien cy in 2

goal

- setting infringes on state and local 3
authority. 4

The current supply to our 49 member 5
communities consists of over 1,200 megawatts of 6
nuclear and hydroelectric power supply. The 7
result is that over 50 percent of our electricity 8
supplied to our co mmunities is produced with no 9
emissions. The proposed rule provides little 10

credit for these carbon

- free resources, and 11
instead will require these communities to fund 12

new unneeded renewable energy resources and new 13
energy efficiency programs, which raise t he cost 14
of electricity to our consumers unnecessarily. 15
Looking to invest in the future of these 16
communities, our members have not only invested 17
in the new construction of Vogtle units 3 and 4 18

non

- emitting resources, but also have funded 19

half

- a

- billion doll ars of emissions

- controlled 20

state

- of

- the

- art controls for our coal

- generating 21

resources based on recent federal and state 22

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rules. 1

Th e s e proposed carbon dioxide rules 2
penalize our communities for the investments by 3
asking the State of Georgia for additional 4
emission reductions beyond what we've already 5
achieved from 2005 levels. But they also do not 6

consider these nuclear investments. 7
The proposal would also require reduced 8
coal unit operations, potentially shutting these 9

units down, which would strand the c osts of these 10
recent environmental investments and again raise 11
the cost of our electricity unnecessarily to our 12

communities. 13

Each hour of the day, MEAC Power manages 14

the use of our diverse mix of resources in order 15
to provide the lowest

- cost wholesale powe r to our 16
communities. It's essential for their growth and 17
prosperity. Principle of economic dispatch form 18

the foundation of the power industry operation 19

and allows for use of a diverse set of fuel 20

resources in a manner that ensures the citizens 21

receive t he benefit of this investment. 22

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Again, this proposed rule goes well 1
beyond what is allowed under the Clean Air Act, 2
dictates the operation of resources
, and 3
preventing economic dispatch of the system, which 4

raises the cost to our consumers. 5
This proposal go es well beyond Section 6
111(d) requirements, creates cost s that will flow 7
directly to our consumers, many who are low on 8

fixed income and can least afford an increase in 9
electricity costs. We request you withdraw this 10
proposal and resubmit a proposal that complies 11

with the Clean Air Act and states and be 12
implemented under state laws. 13
Thank you for the opportunity to make 14
these comments. I appreciate your time. 15
MS. KEMKER: I had one question for Mr. 16
Gordon. You mentioned a documentary? 17

MR. GORDON: Yes. The name of the 18
documentary is "Yes Men Fix the World." 19

MS. KEMKER: Yes. Thank you. 20
Other questions? 21
[No audible response.] 22

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MS. KEMKER: Thank you both. 1

[Pause.] 2

MS. KEMKER: Our next speakers are Kelly 3

Coles and Steve Davidson. 4

[Pause.] 5

MS. COLES: My name is Kelly Coles, K

- e

6

l

- l

- y C

- o

- l

- e

- s. 7
And to begin, I'd like to start with a 8
story. And I think this story really illustrates 9

why I'm here today. 10
Several years ago, I was hiking through 11

the woods when I encountered an absolutely 12
exquisite being unlike any I had ever before 13
seen. I was walking and talking with a friend, 14
kind of oblivious to my surroundings, when I 15
heard something off to my left, a rustle in the 16

leaves. 17

So I turned and looked, and there was a 18

white deer. I'd never seen a white deer bef ore, 19
and this one was incredibly calm. She looked me 20
right in the eyes, and instead of running, as all 21
the deer that I'd seen before, she just laid 22

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down. We locked eyes, kind of like magnets, and 1

I don't know how long we stood there together, 2
but it comp letely transformed my experiencing of 3

the world. 4
The rest of the day, everything that I 5
encountered, every form of existence, I looked at 6
with fresh eyes. Somehow, I could sense the 7
mysterious ecological web of connectivity between 8

us that I had read abou t, but never really been 9
able to experience in such a tangible way. 10
Having spent a lot of time being quiet 11
and kind of lonely, this experience transformed 12
me. I found a new joy in being alive, and I saw 13
the importance in hearing soft voices. Having 14

one m yself, I found that I could no longer keep 15
quiet about the things that mattered to me. 16
That day in the forest, I could feel the 17
voices of the whole world echoing around me. 18
Among them, I could sense my own voice ringing as 19

well. I knew that there were ot her voices that 20
we weren't listening to. 21

But when I left the forest, I couldn't 22

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help but see the dying creek bed and the clear

1
cut trees on the periphery. Today, due to 2
climate disruption based on human activity
, in 3
large part, species are dying off at a rate 1,000 4
to 10,000 times greater than the background rate. 5
We're at a risk of losing 30 to 50 percent of our 6
biodiversity by mid

- century if we keep going at 7

this rate. 8

I couldn't fathom a world without 9
diversity, like I was able to experience. I hope 10

t hat my children can experience that and that 11
other children everywhere get the opportunity 12

that all people do. 13
So I support the EPA's climate action 14
plan because it gives us the opportunity to 15
transform our understanding of who we are and 16

what our relation with the earth is. She's been 17
here far longer than we. What makes us think 18
that we can make myopic decisions that will 19
affect not just humans, but all forms of 20
existence on this blue planet? 21

We must respect our elders here as well, 22

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honoring the wisdom o f the earth. If we choose 1
to do the right thing and to cease our polluting 2
ways, we can begin to set things right again. 3

Somehow in our modern world, we have come to view 4

ourselves as separate from the natural world. 5
Despite our inherent dependence on h er, we have 6
come to imagine that we're somehow superior and 7

different. 8
But humanity evolved in close connection 9
with nature. For most of human history, we had 10
an entirely different relationship with her, one 11

that respected and honored her. 12

In recent years , we've come to surround 13

ourselves with human

- reflecting signs and we've 14
forgotten our place in the world. Language, 15

which arose out of our intimate relation with the 16

earth, has come to serve purely human purposes, 17
no longer echoing the majesty and wisdom of 18
nature, but reflecting ourselves alone back to 19

us. How are we supposed to make decisions if we 20
are only thinking abou t ourselves? It's too 21

narrow. 22

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At the beginning of human history, we 1
might have focused to much on abstract things, on 2
mystical things . And then we went into the 3
Industrial Revolution and to the agricultural 4

revolutions that allowed us to transform our 5
thinking. At that time, we began to try to solve 6
all the problems of the universe, all the 7
mysteries. And we began to think that it's okay 8
for us to change what we don't like and use what 9

we do. 10
I believe that these are all important 11
values and perspectives. But it's time to come 12
into a balance. We're measuring everything in 13

human terms, based on progress that's measured by 14

yet another symbol. Our symbol now is money. 15
Money is nothing but a symbol. Is this truly 16
what we're going to live by? Can we look at our 17

children and tell them that we chose to insure, 18
not the health of our planet, but the size of our 19

wallets? 20

When we die, we kn ow we can take nothing 21
with us. Can we look the young ones by our beds 22

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in the eyes at that time with integrity, knowing 1
we did everything we could to leave behind a 2
diverse, nurturing earth? Or will we look out 3
the window to see smog hovering, the other voices 4
of the earth muted, and human waste raining? 5
It's time to choose a new symbol to live 6
by. I choose the white deer. Which will we 7

choose for our country? 8

Thank you. 9

MS. KEMKER: Thanks. 10

Mr. Davidson? 11

MR. DAVIDSON: My turn? 12

MS. KEMKER: Yes. 13

MR. DA VIDSON: My name is Steve Davidson, 14

from Austin, Texas. 15
One talking point

-- compliance costs. 16
The IPM, which seems to be like a black box, says 17
that compliance will cost between $7.3 and $8.8 18

billion. 19

And that number seems a little low, 20
especially consid ering that Texas, where I'm 21
from, ERCOT just completed a $6 billion upgrade 22

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just of their electric grid infrastructure to 1
support 12 to 18 gigawatt hours of transmission 2

from West Texas, where the winds farms, to East 3
Texas, where all the electricity is us ed. So 4

that number seemed low to me. 5

So, what I did is took numbers and did 6
some calculations. And the methodology is like 7
this: Every, all the data comes from either EIA 8
or EPA. And primarily, the state table is my 9
primary source of information to cal culate costs. 10
And then use the levelized cost of electricity 11

for 2019 EIA numbers, and the state table is used 12

to calculate a coal

- equivalent reduction, 13

replacement. 14

That, how much coal

- generated electricity 15
needs to be replaced with lower CO2 emission 16

en ergy sources to meet the standard? And you can 17

calculate that from the state table. And the 18
state table, the first prize is that the state 19

table calculates out to, on a national level, 20

either a 32

-- between a 32

- 33 percent reduction 21

in CO2 emissions bel ow 2012 levels, not 2005

-- 22

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2012. That's in the state table. 1

And I used that state table. And the 2
percentage reduction for coal is about 41 3
percent. So you're going to have to get, take 4
and replace that 41 percent with something else. 5

And it's 678,000 megawatts worth of electricity 6

that has to come from someplace else. 7
And using the levalized cost, I did some 8

calculations. I also

-- and these are based on 9
blocks 1, 2, 3, and 4. And so, my primary 10

numbers come from the block 3

- 4 solution that I 11

did the se numbers for, I'll read in just a 12

minute. 13

I'll talk about block 1 a little bit 14
first. Block 1 is improving the efficiency of 15
existing coal

- fired plants. And that, S argent 16
and Lundy's study, the EPA's study, is excellent. 17
I mean, it's great. It has a zillion different 18
solutions to improve the efficiency of carbon 19

plants. 20
But at the very end, it has a very 21
telling example. That example is a 250

- megawatt 22

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coal plant where you apply fixes to improve its 1
efficiency by 4 percent. Cost $13.3 million. If 2

yo u expand that out and applied it across the 3

board to all coal plants, that would be between 4

21 and 40

-- $22 and $41 billion to reduce 4 5

percent. Okay? 6

So that's block 1, pretty spendy for

-- 7
the bang for the buck isn't there. So you're not 8
going to do v ery much of that. You're going to 9
do something else. 10
Block 2, rebalance, essentially doesn't 11
have a cost to it, because you're using the 12
existing things. You know, you're tweaking them. 13
Block 3 is replacing the coal with lower

- emission 14

sources. And Blo ck 4 is reduced demand side, you 15
know, energy efficiency. 16

So I did calculations on the block 3

- 4 17
solution. I'll just read the numbers here. And 18
I picked this on the various types of sources 19

that could be. So, for example, geothermal, 20

which has a leveliz ed cost of 4790 per megawatt 21
hour, if you could apply it, it would cost about 22

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$30 billion to replace, you know, to create all 1

that coal

- replacement energy. 2
Up in order, natural gas advanced 3
combined cycle, which is the only thing anybody 4
is ever going to u se, is just

-- is right a 5

little bit over 39 billion. Wind is 49 billion; 6
hydro, 51 billion; advanced nuclear, 58 billion; 7

biomass, 62 billion; solar PV, 79 billion; and 8

coal with CCS, 90 billion. 9
So, nobody is going to use coal with CCS. 10

And there are n o coal plants scheduled to be 11

built in the United States after the ones that 12
are subsidized by the government. So we're not 13
going to see that. 14
MS. KEMKER: Mr. Davidson, your time is 15
up. If you could wrap it up. Thank you. 16
MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. I'll jus t say that, 17
for those costs, we're buying

-- I think we need 18

to be aware of those costs. I think the IPM 19

needs to be revisited and recalculated. I don't 20

know how that calculation was done, but I'm 21
certain it's about an order of magnitude below 22

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what it sh ould be. That's a pretty big 1
difference. So I urge EPA to review the IPM and 2

recalculate those numbers and make them more 3

realistic. 4

Thank you. 5
MS. KEMKER: Thanks. And if you have 6
written comments, we would be happy to accept 7
those as well, with your e xamples. 8
MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. It's right here. 9

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. Okay. 10
I just had one clarifying question. You 11
said Table 2? Which Table 2 are you referring 12

to? 13

MR. DAVIDSON: The state table. It's in 14
the state regulation. It's the one that lis ts, 15

for each state, how much megatons they have, how 16
much electricity produced, what the pounds per 17
megawatt hour in 2012 and the pounds per megawatt 18

hour 2030. So that's where that table is. 19

MS. KEMKER: Thank you both. 20

Our next two speakers are Brionte 21

McCorkle

-- and if I mispronounce your name, 22

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please help correct me

-- and Connor Hawle y . If 1

you'll both please come forward. 2

[Pause.] 3

MS. KEMKER: Welcome. 4

[Pause.] 5
MS. KEMKER: If you'll begin. 6
MS. McCORKLE: Okay. So, my name is 7

Brionte McCorkle. And I work for the Georgia 8
chapter of the Sierra Club. 9
MS. KEMKER: And if you'll take a moment 10

to spell your name for the court reporter. 11

MS. McCORKLE: Um

- hm. B

- r

- i

- o

- n

- t

- e, 12

last name M

- c

- C

- o

- r

- k

- l

- e. 13

MS. KEMKER: Thanks. 14
MS. McCORKLE: All right. So, I w ork for 15
the Georgia Sierra Club. And my official title 16

is Conservation and Communications Coordinator, 17
but that does not explain what I do. 18
Essentially, I'm a community organizer, and I 19
work on transportation issues. 20
I work primarily to expand transporta tion 21
alternatives like biking, walking, mass transit, 22

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and electric vehicles. I feel like by 1
encouraging people to choose a commute that 2
doesn't contribute to nearly 70 percent of the 3

oil consumed in the U.S. and which also 4
contributes to nearly 30 percent of greenhouse 5
gas pollution in our nation, I hope to secure a 6

future with less conflict and cleaner air. 7
On that same pie chart, I can also see 8
that the electricity generation sector also 9

accounts for nearly that same percentage of 10
greenhouse gas pollutio n, about, I believe it was 11
32 percent. And now, for the first time ever, 12
limits on carbon emissions from existing power 13

plants have been proposed. And they're the 14
largest single source of carbon emissions. 15
And to be honest, I didn't really 16

understand the significance of that at first. 17
And then I read that Georgia's actually home to 18
the single largest source, which is Plant 19
Scherer. And this plant alone emits 21 million 20
tons of carbon dioxide a year, which is as much 21

as 4.5 million cars. 22

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Well, I know my work as a transit 1
organizer is helping to reduce emissions. But, 2

wow

-- 4.5 million cars? Like transportation 3
organizers would have to change the behaviors of 4
so many individuals and completely change the way 5
our cities were designed and built, to achiev e 6

that reduction. And that is a lot of work and 7

takes a lot of time. 8
I've been working on getting mass transit 9
expanded into Clayton County, and I've only been 10

there for a year. And to see the hoops we have 11
to jump through to make this stuff happen, and 12
only imagining that multiplied across this nation 13
and thinking we could really target it with this 14

plan

-- 4.5 million cars is, wow. That put it 15
into perspective, for me. 16

So let me get back on track. Sorry. 17
[Laughter.] 18

MS. McCORKLE: So, by now I'm sure you 19

all have heard from plenty of doctors who have 20

mentioned that the harmful effects of

-- well, 21
they've basically discussed the harmful effects 22

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of all the air pollution at the community and 1

individual level. 2

And I'm sure you've heard from people, 3

climate activists, who have discussed the larger 4
reality of climate disruption and how all this 5
pollution is contributing to that phenomenon that 6
we're were already seeing in the form of severe 7

droughts, record heat, and super

- storms. 8

So, I mean, these events are costing us 9
more money in more places. And I don't really 10
have much to add to those points. I feel like, 11
in sum, we're asking for cleaner air and safer 12

and healthier communities. 13
So I also briefly want to mention that in 14
my transportation work, I've gro wn very, very 15
aware of environmental justice work, issues of 16
equity and the grim statistics that people of 17
color are disproportionately affected by 18
environmental issues. For example, earlier, I 19
mentioned Plant Scherer, which is actually very 20

close to Maco n, which is a community that's 67 21
percent African American. 22

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And as a person of color, I care deeply 1
about these issues. And I work diligently on 2
them in my role at the Sierra Club and through 3
other organizations. Again, it's amazing to me 4
that this plan, this plan, it's a new commonsense 5
plan, and it could be such a huge step forward in 6
reducing emissions. 7
It's an action that protects people and 8
protects communities, especially those living on 9
the front lines. And that, again, really matters 10

to me. 11

And t he plan is not too ambition. And 12

the notion of moving to cleaner technologies, 13
cleaner energy sources is not new. This has been 14
talked about for years. Power companies have had 15
plenty of time to prepare for and invest in the 16

changes ahead. 17

In fact, Geor gia's already on track. 18
We've already reduced our emissions by 22 percent 19
while we've been recovering from a recession. 20
And the talk of job loss is understandable. But, 21
you know, even in coal's brightest day in 22

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Georgia, is when it was producing about 70 1
percent of our electricity, it only accounted for 2
2,700 jobs in Georgia. And in 2012, there are 3
already 10,000 jobs in the solar, wind, and 4
energy efficiency industries. And those are the 5
ones that are poised to continue to grow. 6
So I see I'm running ou t of time. So I'm 7
just going to make one quick analogy, and I'm 8

done. 9
It's like this: People were riding 10
around in stagecoaches before cars. So, imagine 11
if the stagecoach industry was so big and 12
powerful that it was able to prevent the market 13

from embra cing the automobile through blocking 14
administrative policy decisions that helped pave 15
the way for the vehicle. We would all be riding 16
around in stagecoaches. 17
You know, there is surely not the best 18

way to get around, and the car would

-- has 19

revolutionized the way we lived. And the same 20
thing could happen with cleaner energy sources. 21

So, thank you. 22

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MS. KEMKER: Thank you. 1
All right. Mr. Hawle y ? 2

MR. HAWLE Y : All right. My name is 3

Connor Hawley, C

- o

- n

- n

- o

- r H

- a

- w

- l

- e

- y. 4
I'm a student at Chattahoochee High 5

School, north of here, and I'm affiliated with 6
their recycling club. 7

As I'm sure you already know, 8
anthropogenic climate change is already upon us 9
and continues to grow like a tumor as our energy 10
demand only grows. According to the Energy 11

Information Adm inistration, our energy demand 12
will grow from 387 billion kilowatt hours in 2012 13
to 4,954 billion kilowatt hours by 2040. Just as 14
here, Atlanta experienced the bitter effects of 15
climate change when a small snowstorm brought 16

commerce to a standstill. 17

As a student, I lost two weeks of 18
instruction due to what appears to be climate 19

change

- related phenomenon. 20
This disgrace made Atlanta the subject of 21
mockery nationwide, quoting even Saturday Night 22

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Live in our humiliation. The entire situation 1

was like ludicrou s. However, I don't believe 2

that K asim Reed or any of us could have really 3
done anything about it. We were simply not 4

prepared, and that's the problem. 5

We are almost as unprepared for the 6
catastrophic damages climate change proposes as 7

Atlanta was for th e snowstorm earlier this year. 8

Scientific evidence does indicate that 9
the snowstorm was augmented by climate change. 10
Multiple scientists

-- specifically, Jennifer 11
Francis and Stephen Vavrus from the Institute of 12
Marine and Coastal Sciences at Rutgers Univ ersity 13

-- have posited that extreme mid

- latitude 14
weather, like we saw last winter, is caused by a 15
decline in polar ice caps. 16

And the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on 17
Climate Changes, IPCC's 2007 assessment report
, 18
claimed that climate change like declining polar 19
ice caps has a greater than 95 percent likelihood 20
of being caused by humans. Meaning, the science 21
says that climate change is already here and 22

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having its effects in 2014. 1
The only problem is that, in coming 2
decades, the effects of climate change wil l be 3
significantly worse than spending a night in your 4
heated Cadillac on 285. This time, you get to 5
watch your friends and family die of starvation. 6
The University of Minnesota's Institute 7
on the Environment are observing many stagnating 8
or collapsing cr op yields of several cereal 9
grains worldwide when the world population only 10
continues to grow. I'm afraid that there is no 11

deus ex machina in this case or in the real 12
world. Just because we have survived previous 13
disaster does not magically guarantee our 14

survival in the future. 15
The threat is absolutely tangible and 16
obscenely dangerous. I mean, think about that 17
for a minute. Just like nuclear threats during 18
the Cold War, there is nothing guaranteeing our 19
safety from other destruction. Even during the 20

Co ld War, launched nuclear warheads would not 21

have been good for anybody. 22

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What's worse with this new generational 1
problem of climate change is that our economy's 2
growth is being fueled by a promise of future 3
destruction. Because of delayed consequences, 4

the world is, this time, collaborating to destroy 5

itself. 6
The world's economy is functioning 7
similarly to a bunch of meth addicts. When they 8
started smoking the stuff back in the early 9
nineteenth century, everything seemed to light up 10

and become full of ener gy. Over time, they 11
didn't notice their decaying teeth or shredded 12
skin because they were just too high. 13
The drug has kept coming to them so they 14
could maintain their illusory perceptions, and 15
they aren't going to run out any time soon, 16

either. Much soon er, their bodies will abruptly 17
enter a state of organ failure from an 18

accumulation of abuse. 19

We have the resources to continue 20
harvesting and burning fossil fuels for a long 21
time. But the environment simply cannot contain 22

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that much more carbon before plan ts, the source 1

of all food, will succumb to extreme conditions 2

and die. 3
According to the IPCC, if we pump enough 4
emissions into the atmosphere to raise the 5
average global temperature 4 degrees Celsius

-- 6
that's only 7 degrees Fahrenheit

-- above pre

7

indust rial levels, that's game over. End of your 8
cards. We would literally make our planet 9
unsuitable for civilization. And that may sound 10
ridiculous, but we've already gone up 1 degree 11
Celsius in just the last century alone. 12

For those reasons, I support the EPA's 13

proposed rules as a decent start. Unfortunately, 14
I see your regulations as a strong political 15
maneuver with weak environmental impact. 16
According to the Clean Power Plan, reducing 17
carbon emissions by 30 percent in the sector of 18
the economy producing one

- third of domestic 19

carbon emissions would reduce domestic emissions 20

by only 10 percent by 2030. 21
That's more than a drop in the bucket, 22

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and I think the effects would be felt 1
ubiquitously. But it's far less than what would 2

be needed to avert climate cha nge's nastiest 3

effects. 4

Many of you are more calloused to the 5
issue because your lifespan will likely not last 6
long enough for you to really feel climate 7
disaster sink its fangs into the economy. I am, 8

however, not satisfied, since I have to live 9

through this. 10
The regulations indicate a willingness to 11
shift our energy supply, but I think America 12
could reach far higher in reducing her carbon 13
emissions without being too detrimental to her 14
economy. For that reason, I'm very optimistic to 15

see what individual states do with this plan. I 16
think it's a wise move to delegate so much 17
oversight and decision

- making to the individual 18

states to come to safer energy diversity. 19
With these new incentives in place, I 20
hope to see states turning to sustainable 21

solutions and new energy sources in lieu of 22

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efficiency improvement and clean coal emission 1
reductions, as suggested by the Clean Power Plan, 2

as those latter reductions, I believe, would 3
likely mean expanding Shell Oil and Gas to meet 4

the plan's goals. 5
If I had it my way , I'd have this country 6
switch over to renewable energy at a rate that 7
would be ruinous to the economy. However, I 8
realize that this is political suicide and would 9
not pass in any democracy. If anyone has

-- I 10
don't think there is really a solution to th at, 11

unfortunately. 12
Thank you for your time. 13

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. 14
Any questions? 15
[No audible response.] 16

MS. KEMKER: Thank you both. 17

Our next sp eakers are Sarah Lettes and 18

Elis abeth McNamara. 19

[Pause.] 20
MS. KEMKER: And if you'll both, when you 21
begin spe aking, state and spell your names. 22

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MS. LETTES: Hi. My name is Sarah 1

Lettes, S

- a

- r

- a

- h L

- e

- t

- t

- e

- s. And I'm a student 2
at Pace Academy. And I'm going to start by 3
telling you an experience I had. 4

"You know, I can remember when there used 5
to be snow righ t where you're standing," my 6
guide, Antony noted, as he led me and my 7
classmates to our campsite. I stared at the 8

green plants around me and the dusty ground under 9

my feet. We were over halfway up Mount 10
Kilimanjaro, and I knew we wouldn't walk through 11

sn ow for at least another day. 12
"Really? Why do you think there's so 13

much less snow now?" I asked Antony. 14
"Global warming," he replied, simply. 15
Those words stuck with me. I thought 16

about it as we came back down the mountain two 17

days later. As the sky clear ed and Tanzania 18

stretched in fron t of me for miles, i t was a view 19

that I hoped to never change. 20
I thought about it more after I got home. 21
One day, while doing homework, I scrolled through 22

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Google images of Kilimanjaro 20 years ago and 1

now. The difference was startling. The mountain 2
was the same, but there was a huge discrepancy in 3

the amount of snow. 4

Here for the first time, I could see 5
visible and tangible effects of climate change. 6
Climate change was altering one of the most 7
beautiful peaks on the plan et. I felt a sense of 8
helplessness at the scope of the situation and 9

frustration at the lack of action. 10

And then the Clean Power Plan was 11
introduced, a concrete plan to act and change the 12
way we do things. It startled me to learn that 13

there are currently no limits on carbon emissions 14
from power plants. Now we have this 15
unprecedented opportunity, thanks to the EPA, to 16
finally get on the right path. 17
If our country takes advantage of this 18
groundbreaking new plan, it will change all of 19

our lives for the bett er. It will help us 20
transition to a more modern energy economy, 21
stimulate the creation of new jobs, and reduce 22

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health costs across the nation. It will make the 1

U.S. an energy leader and set a powerful example 2

for other countries. 3

This is action that need s to happen. 4
It's a goal within reach that will change the 5
future for the better. Someday, if I take my own 6
students to Mount Kilimanjaro, I hope it will be 7
the same. I hope the snow would be as expansive 8
and the air as clean as before. I hope that the 9
biggest challenge for my students would be their 10
sore legs, not respiratory issues caused by 11
pollution. 12
I hope I would remember with appreciation 13
the Clean Power Plan that got passed at a time we 14

needed it most. 15
As a high school student, I know that my 16

ge neration will face some monumental issues in 17
the coming years. We have a lot of work ahead of 18
us in the fight to protect our planet. I'm up 19
here right now because I know this can't wait. 20
By the time I graduate college, power 21
plants will have been pumping out carbon 22

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emissions for another five years. Right now, 1
there's an incredible opportunity to set 2
ourselves on the right path. I thank the EPA for 3
taking this important step. I feel so much more 4
motivated and hopeful knowing action to protect 5

our countr y and planet is being taken right now. 6

I fully support the Clean Power Plan. 7
And I know that if we join together in support of 8
this, the world really will change for the 9

better. 10

Thank you. 11

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. 12

MS. McNAMARA: Thank you . My name is 13

Elis abeth McNamara, and I'm the National 14
President of the League of Women Voters. I am 15

also a resident of the metro Atlanta area and 16

have been for 40 years. And I'm very, very proud 17
to be here this afternoon with a younger 18
generation speaking its mind on suc h an important 19

issue. 20
Thank you for holding these public 21
hearings and the others like it across the 22

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country, and for taking my comments and the 1
comments of other members of the public and the 2

comments of other members of the League of Women 3

Voters. So far , the league has generated over 4
50,000 comments in support of this regulatory 5

process. 6
That being said, the league believes that 7

the EPA proposal can and should be strengthened 8
to better and more realistically recognize the 9
tremendous potential for renewab le energy and 10
energy conservation in cutting carbon emissions. 11
Burning coal accounts for half the 12
electricity generated in the United States, and 13
carbon pollution from U.S. power plants counts 14
for 40 percent of the CO2 emissions contributing 15

to climate cha nge and is responsible for 16
increased air pollution that can cause thousands 17
of deaths every year if it remains unchecked. 18
We must protect public health by 19
extending limits like the ones placed on arsenic, 20
lead, mercury, and soot to carbon pollution. 21

Accord ing to the American Lung 22

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Association, nearly half of us live in counties 1
with unhealthy levels of dirty air, which when 2
exacerbated by climate change caused by carbon 3
pollution, is responsible for premature deaths, 4
respiratory disease, and higher risks of asthma 5

attacks. 6
It also disproportionately affects low

7

income communities, as well as children, seniors, 8

and those who work or play outdoors. 9
Scientific reports show that inaction 10
will only increase the impacts that climate 11
change brings to our communities , from increased 12
health risks to devastating extreme weather 13
events. It is our moral obligation to our 14
children and future generations to address these 15
impacts by cutting CO2 emissions from all power 16
plants and by setting sensible standards, not 17
just for new sources, but for existing power 18

plants as well. 19
We applaud the EPA for taking steps to do 20

so, and we strongly support EPA proposals. But 21
we also encourage you to work with state 22

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stakeholders to be more aggressive when in 1
determining final actions to r educe this deadly 2
form of pollution. 3
Specifically, the league would like to 4
see a 35 percent reduction in carbon pollution 5
below overall 2005 levels by 2030. We would like 6
to see greater speed in consideration of these 7
critical new rules. We urge the EPA to allow no 8
slippage in the current timetable or in the 9
interim steps called for in the plan. 10
The EPA proposal is strengthened by 11
providing for greater use of renewable energy and 12
energy efficiency in displacing carbon emissions 13
from power plants in estab lishing state

- by

- state 14
targets is also one of our goals, or one 15
consideration that we ask you to take. 16
The American public supports the EPA when 17
it comes to strong regulations that will protect 18
the health and wellbeing of our children and our 19

communities. The United States must take 20
aggressive action to reduce greenhouse gas 21
emissions from all sources, with emission targets 22

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of at least 35 percent below overall 2005 levels 1

by 2030. 2
Reaching these targets will require 3
current power plants to dramatically red uce their 4
carbon emissions, and the League of Women Voters 5
urges the EPA to require those steps as quickly 6
as possible. 7

And I do have cop ies of my more complete 8

remarks and
, I believe
, remarks that have been 9
submitted electronically from the Washington 10

off ice. 11

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. And I ask two 12
things. One, your more complete

-- if you 13
comment, if you would give those to the 14
registration desk, that would be great. 15

MS. McNAMARA: Fabulous. 16
MS. KEMKER: And then, the other thing, 17

could you spell your nam e for the court reporter? 18
MS. McNAMARA: Absolutely. It is E

- l

- i

19

s

- a

- b

- e

- t

- h McNamara, M

- c

- N

- a

- m

- a

- r

- a. 20

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. 21

MS. McNAMARA: Thank you. 22

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MS. KEMKER: Questions? 1
[No audible response.] 2
MS. KEMKER: Thank you for your time. 3

MS. McNAMARA: T hank you for holding 4
these hearings. 5

MS. KEMKER: Our next speakers are Susan 6
Gamble and Gary Spikula. Thanks. Please come 7

up. 8

[Pause.] 9
MS. KEMKER: Ms. Gamble, if you'll begin 10

when you're ready. 11

MS. GAMBLE: I'm Susan Gamble, S

- u

- s

- a

- n 12

G

- a

- m

- b

- l

- e. I'm from Lawrenceville, Georgia, 13
and Jackson EMC is my power provider. 14
If we don't get clean power soon, within 15
the near future, I will become my own power 16
provider with solar. I prefer to purchase my 17

power from a company so that I don't have to fuss 18

with a solar array and system. But I will change 19
my ways if they do not provide clean energy soon. 20
The citizens speaking for clean air are 21
taking days off from work, vacation days, and 22

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time away from families to be here. I myself 1
work for myself. So I'm losing money to be here. 2

I want to speak about the need and the 3
necessity for government regulation. When I go 4
to the doctor, they ask if I have ever been 5
exposed to secondhand smoke. I feel like saying, 6
"You have my birth date, so you know the answer 7
is yes." Everyone in my generation was affected 8
by secondhand smoke. All office environments 9
were heavy with it, all restaurants, all public 10

places. 11
Thanks to intervention from government 12
agencies, after intense pressure from the public, 13
that is no longer the ca se. Government must step 14

up to protect. 15

Our EPA must step up and force change 16
upon dirty industries in order to ensure a 17
healthy living environment. Industry has a 18
terrible track record of doing it without 19
government intervention. 20
I live in Georgia, wher e the utilities 21
are crying like victims. They fight against 22

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clean energy like wind and solar with every 1
marketing dollar they have. Can you imagine how 2

much clean energy would have already been in the 3
mix if their marketing efforts were put to 4
positive u se? I would have a state to brag about 5

all over social media. If the United States 6
would shift away from dirty power, I would have a 7

country to brag about. 8
We need clean energy now. I support wind 9

and solar. We need to reduce carbon emissions 10

from coal

- fired power plants. Please do the 11
right thing and implement a good clean plan. 12

Thank you. 13

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. 14
Mr. Spikula. 15
MR. SPIKULA: Spikula, that's right. Um

16
hm. It's Gary with one R, and Spikula is spelled 17
S as in Sam, p as in Paul i

- k

- u

- l

- a. 18

I live here in the Atlanta area, also 19
from Lawrenceville. And I'm going to read this 20

so I won't

-- I'll be sure not to leave anything 21

out. 22

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I have always been a huge nature lover 1
since my earliest childhood. Later as a biology 2
major in college, I learned just how fragile and 3
intricate the various life forms on this planet 4

can be. It really saddens me as I hear about all 5
the current disasters occurring within different 6
species and ecosystems around the world as a 7
result of fossil fuel pollution and the re sulting 8
climate changes. 9

These are all canaries in the coal mine 10
of things to come for our own human populations. 11
Weakened immune systems and genetic damage, among 12
other things, will continue to worsen as 13
pollution and climate change continues to sicken 14

u s and all the other magnificent forms of life on 15

the planet. 16
In my personal life, I have seen asthma 17
and numerous allergies in my sister and both her 18
children here in Atlanta. I haven't developed 19
these yet, but I have seen the filthy brown smog 20
hovering o ver Atlanta for decades. 21
I am also a landscape designer here and a 22

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passionate gardener. It has been a real 1
challenge over the past few decades keeping even 2
tough and hardy plants alive in the crazy weather 3

that we've had. 4

In 1985, huge numbers of hardy lo ng

5

established trees and shrubs were frozen to the 6
ground with the low of 8 degrees below zero 7
Fahrenheit right here in Atlanta, in my back 8

yard. Next came years and years of horrendous 9
droughts. I remember well having to water at 10
3:00 a.m. just to keep my plants alive because of 11
the severe watering restrictions. 12
Lately, with milder winters, I've been 13
growing many different species of palm trees and 14
other subtropical plants, only to have these 15
devastated this past winter by a sudden plummet 16

down to 5 degr ees Fahrenheit after mild winter 17

temperatures no lower than the low 20s. 18

Plants need gradually colder temperatures 19
to develop sufficient hardiness, and they 20
certainly didn't get it. 21

I have lived in the Southeastern U.S. all 22

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my life and have never experienc ed so much severe 1
weather, explosively loud thunder, lightning, and 2
frequent tornado warnings. We must change to 3
safe energy sources quickly, not only to save all 4
the other magnificent life forms, but also to 5

save ourselves and the lives of our children. 6
I stress that there is no political issue 7
nor energy cost issue that can ever exceed the 8
importance

-- 9

[Pause.] 10

MR. SPIKULA:

-- of our own lives and the 11
lives of our precious children and the very 12
continuation of the human species. 13

Thank you. 14

MS. KEMKER: Thank you both. 15
Our next speakers are Felicia Davis and 16

Laura Mattox. 17

[Pause.] 18

MS. KEMKER: Ms. Davis, if you'll begin 19

when you're ready. 20

MS. DAVIS: Sure. It's Felicia Davis, F

21

e

- l

- i

- c

- i

- a D

- a

- v

- i

- s. And my remarks in support 22

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of the Clean Power Plan a re drawn almost entirely 1
from the Air of Injustice Report published in 2

October 2002. 3
MS. KEMKER: And I'm going to ask you to 4
get slightly closer to the mic so we can all hear 5

you. 6

MS. DAVIS: Sure. So, well over a decade 7
ago, we closed the Air of Injusti ce, African 8
Americans and Power Plant Pollution report with a 9
photo of the Georgia Kids Against Pollution 10
holding posters that they created to protest 11
power plant pollution. 12
Those kids are now grown, and a few of 13

them have children of their own. We're all 14
pleased to know that the EPA is poised to act on 15
carbon. I offer my testimony in support of the 16

proposed EPA Clean Power Plan, on behalf of the 17
Georgia Kids Against Pollution, the Georgia 18
Coalition for the People's Agenda, and Dr. Joseph 19

Lowry, Dr. Yvonn e Scruggs

- Leftwich, and the Black 20
Leadership Forum, and Ms. Connie Tucker of the 21
former Southern Organizing Committee for Economic 22

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and Social Justice. 1

These groups came together more than a 2
decade ago to help educate the black community 3
about the impact of power plant pollution and to 4
promote responsible public policies protective of 5

human health and the environment. 6
Long before Katrina, Sandy, and the 7
increased presence of tropical diseases in the 8

U.S., we understood the need to reduce power 9
plant emission s. The black community has a long 10
history of struggle in pursuit of justice, and 11
today climate change provides an inescapable 12
scientific and moral imperative for supporting 13

the Clean Power Plan. 14
Air of Injustice was the first report to 15

chronicle how Afric an Americans are affected by 16
air pollution emitted by our nation's biggest 17

polluters, coal

- fired power plants. 18
These plants release millions of pounds 19
of a wide variety of chemicals into the air, and 20
the report described the relationship between 21

power plan t pollutants and environmental health 22

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issues that have the most impact on African 1

Americans

-- pediatric asthma, infant death 2
rates, emergency room visits, and 3
hospitalizations, fish contamination, and climate 4

change. 5
African Americans are at risk from pow er 6
plant pollution, and power plants account, as we 7

know, for more than 30 percent o f the most 8

permanent greenhouse

- gas carbon dioxide. 9
African Americans are disproportionately 10
affected, and because we suffer higher rates of 11

asthma, are concentrated in urb an centers, and of 12

course, we have a historical bond with the 13
developing world where climate change threatens 14

already

- weakened overburdened economies. For 15
these reasons, power plant cleanup is elevated on 16
the long list of social justice imperatives. 17

We wr ote back then that power plants are 18
at the center of the debate on climate change. 19
We explained that coal has the highest carbon 20
content of any fossil fuel and that CO2 is formed 21

when coal is burned, and that health effects 22

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would include the spread of inf ectious diseases. 1

By the way, then everybody laughed at me 2
when I said that West Nile could be present in 3
the U.S. We noted that all populations are 4

vulnerable. A warmer climate means that more 5
areas of the U.S. will be hospitable to insects 6

and diseases that they spread

-- malaria, Lyme 7
disease, Dengue fever, and West Nile virus. 8
We noted that since many African 9

A mericans lack health insurance and access to 10
medical treatment, that our community was 11
particularly at risk. We also want to note that 12

our Pre sident has made an effort to close the 13
health insurance gap, which is beneficial. We're 14
pleased that the administration is now taking 15

decisive action to act on carbon. 16
As our report predicted, warming of the 17
planet, together with more drought conditions i n 18
some regions and flooding in others, could and 19
has induced crop failures, famines, flooding, and 20

other environmental, economic, and social 21
problems. In addition, moving forward, we want 22

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to note that in Africa, we believe that climate 1
change is contribut ing a destabilizing factor, 2
leading to conflict in Syria and other places. 3

And fast

- forward to the end, the Clean 4

Power Plan is a breath of fresh air. And we want 5
EPA, the U.S. Congress, President Obama, and the 6
entire world to know that we are working 7

ag gressively to reduce carbon pollution. 8

Thank you. 9

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. 10
All right. I have a question. Could you 11
give me the title of the report and the year 12
again? 13
MS. DAVIS: Sure. Air of Injustice, 14

African Americans and Power Plant Pollution, and 15

i t's October 2002. And I'm going to leave my 16
remarks with the gentleman, so it's in there. 17

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. 18

[Pause.] 19

MS. MATTOX: Hi. I'm Laura Mattox, L

- a

20

u

- r

- a M

- a

- t

- t

- o

- x. 21
First I want to say thanks for giving the 22

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opportunity to someone like me to come up here 1
and speak my mind. 2
I was born in Atlanta. I grew up in the 3
mountains of North Georgia. And I want to give 4
ya'll just a glimpse of what my utopia looks 5

like. 6
In my utopia, fossil fuels and coal would 7
stay in the ground. We would practice perma

8

culture instead of monoculture. We would 9
prioritize pollinators over pesticides. We would 10
have solar panels and windmills everywhere. We 11
would have organic gardens in every neighborhood. 12
We would have the production tax credit being 13

very generous and permanent. 14

Recently, my son and I spent a few weeks 15
walking through Galicia, the northwest corner of 16
Spain. And we saw windmills all over the place, 17
just covering the ridgelines. And that was 18
beautiful. That was a piece of my utopia. 19
And in my ut opia, my son and I would 20

never have to use our nebulizers or inhalers 21
again. 22

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But the world around me now is not my 1
utopia. Back in '79, I'm sure ya'll know Carter, 2
President Carter, put some solar panels up on the 3

White House. And at that time, he said s omething 4
that prescient. "A generation from now, this can 5
either be a curiosity, a museum piece, an example 6

of a road not taken"

-- a road not taken indeed. 7
Reagan took the panels down. And it 8
feels like we've been moving further from my 9
utopia ever sinc e. But now, here you are

. 10
According to the WHO , they say, most sources of 11
outdoor air pollution are well beyond the control 12
of individuals and demand action by cities, as 13
well as national and international policymakers. 14

And that's you. 15

And I want you to be the tough

- love 16
parent and view entities like Sout hern Company as 17
noisy, petulant little three

- year

- olds stamping 18
their feet and yelling, "No." They act like poor 19

victims. 20
But Southern Company is not poor. This 21
morning, they released their earnings fo r the 22

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second quarter of this year. Compared to last 1
year, revenue went up 5.2 percent to $4.47 2
billion, and their profits more than doubled, to 3

$611 million. 4
And Southern Company is not a victim. It 5
creates victims. Like most power companies 6

around the world, it builds its plants upwind of 7

lower

- income areas. 8
The WHO says that outdoor air pollution 9

in both cities and rural areas was estimated to 10
cause 3.7 million premature deaths worldwide in 11
2012. This mortality is due to exposure to 12
particulate matter of 10 microns or less in 13
diameter. Eighty

- eight percent of those deaths 14

were in lower

- income areas. 15
We hear a lot of people talking

-- at 16

least, the last two days I've heard a lot of 17
people speak about respiratory conditions in 18
reference to particulate m atter. According to 19
WHO, that respiratory condition accounted for 20

about 14 percent of those deaths. 21
A whopping 80 percent were due to heart 22

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disease and strokes. And those were primarily 1
due to particulate matter, 2.5 and smaller, 2

because they can enter t he bloodstream, infect 3
the cardiovascular system. The remaining 6 4

percent was due to cancer, mostly lung cancer. 5

And, where was I? 6
Small particulate pollution

-- this is 7
the WHO speaking

-- has health impacts even at 8
very low concentrations. Indeed, no t hreshold 9
has been identified below which no damage to 10

health is observed. The WHO aims to achieve the 11
lowest concentration of particulate matter 12
possible. 13

Therefore, I encourage you to not 14
capitulate, but rather to strengthen your 15
proposals. The National Wildlife Federation has 16
been suggesting a 35 to 40 percent reduction 17

would be better. The Union of Concerned 18
Scientists says a 50 percent reduction is 19

feasible. 20
I hope you do what the WHO urges and aim 21
for the best that is possible. Those big 22

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companies are looking out for themselves, and we 1
individuals need you to look out for us. 2
My favorite scientist, E. O. Wilson, said 3
"Competing is intense among humans. And within a 4
group, selfish individuals always win. But in 5

contests between groups, groups of al truists 6
always beat groups of selfish individuals." I 7
implore you to not only be a group of altruists, 8
but a forceful group of altruists. 9

Thank you. 10

MS. KEMKER: Thank you both. Thank you. 11

[Pause.] 12

MS. KEMKER: Sue Gloor and Janelle 13
Wright. 14

[Pause.] 15

MS. KEMKER: And I'd just remind you to 16

spell your names and say them for the record. 17

Ms. Gloor, when you're ready. 18

MS. GLOOR: Hi. I'm Sue Gloor, S

- u

- e, 19

surname G

- l

- o

- o

- r. 20
Good afternoon, everybody. My name is 21
Sue, and I have lived in Atlanta for the past 22

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s even years. 1

For four of those years, I have 2
volunteered every Saturday morning at one of 3
Atlanta community's organic farmers market. 4
Seeing the farmers every week, I've gotten to 5

know them, their families, and the stories of 6
their farms, personally. I ha ve grown accustomed 7
to Georgia's predictable ebb and flow of 8
different produce as the seasons change. 9

Sweet potatoes and hardy greens in the 10
autumn and winter make way for tiny sweet spring 11
strawberries in the spring, which proceed juicy 12

summer peaches. T he regularity and variety of 13
these fruits and vegetables helps sustain the 14

livelihoods of our local farmers. 15

But as the years have gone on, I've 16
watched this anticipated cadence change. The 17
changes are best shown through emails sent by the 18

farmers market manager to all of us volunteers. 19
Her words help illustrate the intense farming 20
challenges that are the result of increasing 21
climate disruption. 22

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Last July, the market manager wrote to 1
us: "It has been a tough year with all the rain 2

for our farmers, and it looks like this wet 3
summer is going to carry over into fall. Rain 4

and lower

- than

- normal produce, and worse, 5
tasteless produce, has impacted the market as a 6

whole. 7
"One farmer broke her ankle while trying 8

to bail the mud from her fields. She has had 9

over 15 inches of rain in the last month. 10
Another reports losing about 50 percent of the 11
crops planted this season, with four ti mes the 12

normal amount of rain. 13

" One Georgia farmer said, 'The ample 14
rain, turning quickly into saturation, and 15
finally, over

- satura tion, has limited our 16
sunshine; brought about ideal conditions for 17
parasites, fungi, and diseases; made certain 18
crops flavorless; and even caused devastating 19
floods, which wash away weeks of hard labor, 20
topsoil, and the dollar value of anything planted 21

in the path of the surging water.'" 22

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These experiences are not isolated to 1
farms in Georgia or the Southeast. But Georgia's 2
own role is massive. Georgia Power owns the 3

first

- and third

- largest carbon polluters in the 4
nation. The effect of pollution in clima te 5
disruption on farm yields is one drastic 6
consequence of current carbon pollution in the 7
United States, and it disproportionately impacts 8

those who are tasked to feed their communities. 9
I have witnessed it even over the past 10
few years. For this and othe r reasons, the Clean 11
Power Plan is a crucial milestone in tackling 12
climate disruption. It is our obligation as a 13
community and as responsible citizens to advocate 14
for strengthening the Clean Power Plan in three 15

ways. 16

One, we should work toward a much larg er 17
carbon emission reduction goal of at least 40 18
percent reductions below 2005 levels by 2020. 19

Two, states should meet the new standards 20
of renewable energy and efficiency, because this 21

is the fastest, cleanest, and most cost

- effective 22

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path. 1

And three, we must ensure that affected 2
communities are engaged throughout this process 3
and that public resources are available to help 4
workers and communities as they make the 5
transition to a clean energy economy. 6
The Clean Power Plan is an important 7

step, but we can d o better to motivate 8
substantive change. Those who produce our food, 9
and pretty much everybody else, depends on it. 10
Thank you for your attention. 11

MS. KEMKER: Thank you. 12
Thank you. Ms. Wright. 13
MS. WRIGHT: Hi. My name is Janelle 14
Wright. That's J

- a

- n

- e

- l

- l

- e W

- r

- i

- g

- h

- t. I'm 15
from Powder Springs, Georgia, and a third

- year at 16
the University of Virginia, studying 17
Environmental Science. I'm also a sustainability 18

advocate for my school, and I currently am 19
interning with Environment Georgia. 20
Conserving our e xcessive energy use has 21
been important to me for awhile now, and I try to 22

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encourage those around me to do the same. I was 1
emerged in the environment as a long

- time member 2

of Girl Scouts, and I felt some sort of 3
obligation to share my passion since then. 4

A t school, our sustainability club has 5
made a variety of efforts to limit carbon 6
emissions, practice energy efficiency, and save 7
energy. I think that the strong participation in 8
these events that we organize show a passion and 9

c ommitment towards some chang e. 10
For example, we have this thing called 11
the dorm energy race, where in first

- year dorms, 12
they work towards saving energy by unplugging 13
their adaptors or cutting off lights, saving 14
wired things, and such as that. And we try to 15
encourage the entire univer sity to do so as well. 16
The Clean Power Plan is something that my 17
generation cares about because we have access to 18

the facts. And though we know that change cannot 19
happen overnight, change must happen, especially 20

in our lifetime. 21
Identifying the individual impacts every 22

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person has is one simple step that, with the 1
unified involvement, can be extremely beneficial. 2
But I believe that beginning to take action 3
starting with our power plants would lesson our 4
footprint astoundingly. 5
I have heard the opposition t o the plan 6
make the case that the EPA is perhaps not 7
considering a complete and final solution and 8
that the cost is a heavy burden. To this, I 9
would say that the primary cause of our situation 10
is our dependency on these polluting energy 11

sources time and a gain, only to consider 12
renewable energy when it seems convenient. 13

The Clean Power Plan is one that will 14
take time. And for changes to be made, I would 15
like to see the EPA set a template of the 16
complete plan for Georgia, detailing specific 17

changes that mus t be made to invoke change. The 18
current plan is a start, but action is key. 19

The Clean Power Plan would also, in turn, 20
improve the health of millions of Americans, 21
particularly those who in our society are 22

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marginalized and at the greatest need for cleaner 1
air. With this, though perhaps not immediate, a 2

reduction in CO2 emissions could decrease doctor 3
visits to treat the many types of illnesses that 4
are directly linked to poor air quality. 5

Earlier this summer at Environment 6
Georgia, we are working to renew the land and 7
water conservation fund that helps to keep 8
Georgia's drinking water clean. 9

I've noticed that those citizens that 10
support clean water and enjoy using parks have 11

shown a connection with the cause. Those who 12
accept that global warming is and wil l continue 13

to be a health threat or those with firsthand 14
experience have already established this 15
connection to the plant. 16

As we have heard, these numbers are 17
alarmingly high, making it rare not to know or 18
have met someone who has been directly or 19

indirect ly affected by the rise of CO2 emissions. 20

It is now time for the Clean Power Plan to move 21

forward. 22

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Thank you. 1

MS. KEMKER: Thank you both. Thank you 2
for your time. 3
Our next speaker is Rhonda Mayo. 4

[Pause.] 5

MS. MAYO: I don't know whe re to start. 6

My nam e is Rhonda Mayo. I 'm from Chicago, 7

Illinois. 8

I was part of a pre

- engineering program 9
when I was in high school. And it's been quite 10
some time since I graduated in 1983 from high 11
school in New England. And my parents and 12
siblings encouraged me to

-- eve ryone in Chicago 13
encouraged everyone in the state to do the best 14
they can and to continue after high school for a 15
college education in the '70s. And I had some 16
really good teachers and principals, too. 17

And my mother was

-- my mother's like my 18

mentor, Cons tance Mayo. So I thank her, and I 19
thank the Environmental Protection Agency for 20
having me. It's very thoughtful. 21
And getting back to the climate question
, 22

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I applied to do some volu nteer work for the 1

President's O ffice in the White House a few years 2

ago. And they had been back and forth with me, 3
sending me memos about various subjects, asking 4

me which one would I like to contribute toward. 5
So, they sent me the climate denier
, OFA , 6
Organizing for Action
, sent me memos regarding 7
the climate change denier. At first, I thought 8
they were joking. But I love jokes. I love 9
comedy. And so, they sent the information to me 10
regarding this meeting. 11

And carbon dioxide, which consists of one 12

atom of carbon and two atoms of oxygen, and 13

methane, which consists of four covalent bonds of 14

hydrogen and one of carbon

-- those are just two 15
of many pollutants and toxins that are all across 16

the country and even around the world. 17
And it's encouraging to see that, despite 18
all the war that we've been having, globally and 19
in Chicag o, Atlanta, there's been lots of inter

20
or intrastate wars, city wars, all different 21
colors, you name it, different islands warring or 22

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doing different states and factions and sects. 1
But getting back to the topic, it's 2
encouraging, despite the war that's ta king place, 3
the President and his wife have done a really 4
good job, and the former Presidents, too, have 5

contacted me
, too, the Clintons and the Bushes. 6
They are very encouraging. 7

I had a chance to go to D.C. last 8

December. But I didn't meet none of them . I 9

wanted to meet all six of them. And overall, I 10
think they've

-- this country has come a long way 11
cleaning up physical, picking up, a lot of 12
volunteer workers. I've been doing some 13

volunteer work. And I used to work full

- time
, 14

but they gave me an ea rly retirement in '90. And 15

I did some full

- time work after that as a 16
professional secretary, as well. 17
But getting back to the carbon dioxide 18
pollution, pollutants and toxins, yes. We have 19
to clean up the air for our babies and children 20

and teenagers, you ng adults, older adults, and 21
elderly, for all of us. If we want to survive as 22

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a human race, we have to all pull them together, 1
because we may not all look alike, but we are all 2

-- we have one thing in common. We're human 3
beings no matter which part of th e world we're 4

from. 5

And then, that's

-- despite the war, I 6
think that it's clear that they may

-- zoning in 7

on the carbon dioxide emissions control. And 8
there was an environmental engineering company 9

that I worked for once as a word processor

-- I 10

didn't work there as an engineer, but where the y 11

controlled asbestos removal. 12

And I think that same company controls 13

also works to get rid of or to keep under control 14
carbon dioxide, methane removal, and many other 15
biohazards, chemical wastes, and even things lik e 16
cleaning up the wetlands, like different wetlands 17

throughout the South near the ocean and on the 18

East Coast as well. 19
And I guess my education is still 20
continuing. But again, I just wanted to thank 21
the EPA, and I enjoyed yesterday and today. It 22

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was very thoughtful and gives me something to 1
work on. I'm going to look that up and do a 2

little research, do a lot of research on that 3
subject. 4

MS. KEMKER: Could you do me a favor and 5

spell your name for the record? 6

MS. MAYO: Oh, R

- h

- o

- n

- d

- a M

- a

- y

- o. 7

MS. KEMKE R: Thank you so much. 8

MS. MAYO: Oh, thank you, too. 9
MS. KEMKER: Our next speaker is Gloria 10

Tatum. 11

[Pause.] 12
MS. TATUM: Good evening. My name is 13

Gloria Tatum, T

- a

- t

- u

- m. And I'm just another 14
person who wants clean air and clean water and 15
healthy child ren. 16
I want to thank you for the opportunity 17
to speak in support of reduced carbon emissions 18

from coal plants and ask you to please, please 19

remove all support for nuclear power from the 20

final version of the Clean Power Plan. 21

Nuclear is not clean, safe, or cheap. 22

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Your plan ignores nuclear's destructive impact on 1

water resources and the enormous amounts of toxic 2

and radioactive waste that it creates from the 3
beginning
, of N ative R eservations with the 4
uranium mining to radioactive discharges during 5
routine op erations, to 80,000 tons of radioactive 6

waste that no one knows how to safely store for 7
the thousands of years it will remain dangerous 8

to human health and the environment. 9
We can store it for maybe 20, 30, 50 10
years, but we don't have any way to store it. We 11
have no permanent storage. And this is very, 12
very dangerous for future generations. 13
Your plan does not consider the health 14
costs and environmental consequences of accidents 15
like Fukushima and Chernobyl. Radiation is an 16

invisible killer. You cannot s ee, touch, taste, 17

or feel it. But the more radiation in the 18
environment, the more cancer in the population. 19
We seem to be experiencing a creeping 20
plutocracy that is rapidly eroding our democracy, 21
an energy plutocracy where destruction of the 22

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environment a nd people's health can be 1
rationalized, justified, and ignored, a system 2
that puts profits for dirty and dangerous energy 3
above our children's health, a system that 4
justifies fracking, which injects toxins into the 5
earth and poisons our drinking water. 6

A s ystem that blows up mountains for the 7
coal and gives miners black lung disease. A 8
system that creates nuclear power, and this is

-- 9

every nuclear power plant leaks tritium. And 10
it's systematically released, also, into the air, 11

soil, and water. It causes birth defects and 12

cancer. And these are increased around nuclear 13

power plants. 14

A system that creates more and more 15

nuclear waste that will contaminate and kill 16
future generations for thousands of years. 17
Whatever you call the system, it is a 18

system where madness rules and spiritual values 19
and connection to the earth and the people does 20
not exist, where responsibility for the 21
environmental destruction, the dead dying and 22

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sick people caused by the dirty energy industry 1
are not recognized. 2
Now, I'm going to r ead a very short 3
portion of a statement from the indigenous elders 4
and medicine people's council on Fukushima. I'll 5
give you the full statement, but I'm only reading 6
a couple of paragraphs. And this was from South 7
America and North America. It was a hug e council 8
of all of these native people. 9
"Not heeding warnings from both nature 10

and people of the earth keeps us on the path of 11

self

- destruction. Powerful technologies are out 12
of control and are threatening the future of all 13

life. This self

- destructive p ath has led to the 14

Fukushima nuclear crisis, the Gulf Oil spill, tar 15

s ands devastation, pipeline failures, impacts of 16

carbon dioxide emissions, and destruction of 17
ground water through hydraulic fra c king

-- this 18
is just to name a few. 19

"We are connected to M other Earth and 20

understand she is the source of all of our life, 21
not a resource to be exploited. We've got to 22

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stop waging war against Mother Earth and 1
ourselves. We must work in unity to help Mother 2
Earth heal so that she can bring back balance and 3

harmo ny for all of her children." 4
I'm going to give ya'll the full 5

statement from them. 6
The Environmental Protection Agency is 7
supposed to protect us. And I'm asking you to do 8
your job and remove support for nuclear energy in 9
your plan. Fracking, which is rea lly destroying 10

the water

-- we can't live without the water. 11

And, of course, reduce the emissions which we're 12
very grateful that you're considering that. 13
We don't have to continue going down this 14

road of self

- destruction. It's time to change 15

from the dir ty, old, outdated business model to 16
clean renewables like solar, wind, hydro

17
election, and conservation, where people can have 18
jobs that do not pollute the air, water, and soil 19
and make people sick and die. 20

Renewables will create millions of life

21

sustainin g jobs. And we have so much sun in the 22

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South. We don't need another nuclear plant, two 1

of them. 2
MS. KEMKER: Ms. Tatum, if you'll wrap up 3

your

-- 4

MS. TATUM: One sentence. Thank you. 5
I'm asking you to also support returning 6

all the revenue from the car bon tax credit to the 7
people, which will provide an economic stimulus, 8
along with all the jobs we get from renewables. 9
The people aren't going to be hurt. Thank you. 10
MS. KEMKER: Thank you for your time. 11

[Pause.] 12

MS. KEMKER: We'll make sure those are in 13

the record. Thank you. 14

And are there

-- we have no registered 15
speakers at this time. Do we have anyone in the 16
room who would like to speak? 17
[No audible response.] 18
MS. KEMKER: Seeing none, we will recess 19
until 6:00 p.m., at which time we will resume at 20

least in Room A, and make the determination at 21
six o'clock whether or not we'll reopen both 22

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rooms, depending on speaker demand. 1
So, thank you for your time, and thank 2

you for your comments. 3
[Whereupon, at 4 : 55 p.m., the Proposed 4

Clean Power Plan for Existi ng Power Plants Public 5
Hearing concluded.] 6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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