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SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS AND 

OVERSIGHT HEARING ON THE IMPACT OF 

INTERCHANGE FEES ON SMALL BUSINESSES 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

UNITED STATES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

HEARING HELD 

JULY 29, 2010 

Small Business Committee Document Number 111-077 

Available via the GPO Website: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house 


Congress.#13
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

NYDIA M. VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman 

DENNIS MOORE, Kansas 

HEATH SHULER, North Carolina 

KATHY DAHLKEMPER, Pennsylvania 

KURT SCHRADER, Oregon 

ANN KIRKPATRICK, Arizona 

GLENN NYE, Virginia 

MARK CRITZ, Pennsylvania 

MICHAEL MICHAUD, Maine 

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois 

DAN LIPINSKI, Illinois 

JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania 

YVETTE CLARKE, New York 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

BOBBY BRIGHT, Alabama 

DEBORAH HALVORSON, Illinois 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri, Ranking Member 

ROSCOE G. BARTLETT, Maryland 

W. TODD AKIN, Missouri 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida 

BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri 

AARON SCHOCK, Illinois 

GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania 

MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado 

MICHAEL DAY, Majority Staff Director 

ADAM MINEHARDT, Deputy Staff Director 

TIM SLATTERY, Chief Counsel 

KAREN HAAS, Minority Staff Director 

(II) 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS AND OVERSIGHT 

JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania, Chairman 

HEATH SHULER, North Carolina 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma, Ranking 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page 

Altmire, Hon. Jason ................................................................................................. 1 

WITNESSES 

Newton, Mr. Chris, President, Texas Marketers and Convenience Store Association, Austin, TX ............................................................................................... 3 

Celaschi, Mr. Ronald, Vice President of Lending, Clearview Credit Union, 

Moon Township, PA ............................................................................................. 4 

Oeler, Mr. Robert, President and Chief Executive Officer, Dollar Bank, Pittsburgh, PA. On behalf of American Bankers Association .................................. 6 

Buss, Mr. Jerry, President, Aurora Huts LLC, Seven Fields, PA ....................... 8 

APPENDIX 

Prepared Statements: 

Newton, Mr. Chris, President, Texas Marketers and Convenience Store Association, Austin, TX ............................................................................................... 19 

Celaschi, Mr. Ronald, Vice President of Lending, Clearview Credit Union, 

Moon Township, PA ............................................................................................. 69 

Oeler, Mr. Robert, President and Chief Executive Officer, Dollar Bank, Pittsburgh, PA. On behalf of American Bankers Association .................................. 77 

Buss, Mr. Jerry, President, Aurora Huts LLC, Seven Fields, PA ....................... 90 

Statements for the Record: 

Independent Community Bankers of America ...................................................... 95 

(V) 

(1) 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS AND 

OVERSIGHT HEARING ON THE IMPACT 

OF INTERCHANGE FEES 

ON SMALL BUSINESSES 

Thursday, July 29, 2010 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in Room 

2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Jason Altmire [chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representative Altmire. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. I will now call the hearing to order. 

In this time of fiscal belt tightening, too many of America’s small 

businesses are faced with unfortunate choices: either cut costs or 

close their doors. Taking measures such as delaying plans to expand and even cutting their own salaries, small-business owners 

have done their best to weather in these trying times. 

For a majority of small businesses, however, one of the costs they 

have been unable to trim has been the fees they pay in order to 

accept card payments from their customers. These fees, commonly 

known as interchange fees, are paid to banks and card-processing 

networks every time a consumer swipes their card and makes a 

purchase. While, on average, these fees are 2 percent to 3 percent 

of a transaction’s total, the costs can add up quickly for a smallbusiness owner. 

The recently passed financial reform law includes a provision 

that gives the Federal Reserve the authority over these fees for the 

first time. The use of debit card purchases has grown steadily in 

recent years, as consumers have made increased use of debit cards 

in lieu of cash or checks. Under the new law, the Fed is responsible 

for setting reasonable and proportional rates for debit transactions. 

While small businesses expect to experience relief from the fees 

they currently pay for these transactions, small financial institutions, such as community banks and credit unions, have expressed 

concern that providing the Fed with this new authority could have 

long-term unintended consequences. 

Among those concerns is that these small financial institutions 

will ultimately be put at a competitive disadvantage against large 

card issuers and will be unable to match the fees set by the Fed 

for larger issuers, which could ultimately result in fewer services 

for consumers at these financial institutions that are integral to 

communities in western Pennsylvania and across the country. 

2 

Today we will delve into these issues and take a first look at how 

new reforms enacted under the Wall Street Reform Act will affect 

American businesses, financial institutions, and consumers. 

Just 2 years ago, debit, credit, and prepaid cards surpassed the 

use of cash and checks as consumers’ preferred form of payment. 

And today these cards are used in more than 56 percent of all 

transactions. Electronic cards have always been a convenient 

means for payment for customers. They expedite transactions while 

providing the considerable ease of use and security. 

Today, nearly two-thirds of all customers carry cards that provide some type of reward when they are used. It should come as 

no surprise, then, that that card usage is on the upswing. 

As card usage has grown, so, too, have the amount of interchange 

fees paid by retailers. According to the Federal Reserve estimates, 

these fees more than doubled in the 5-year period between 2002 

and 2007. Today, it is estimated that these fees comprise a $45 billion annual expense for our Nation’s businesses. 

For businesses that operate on razor-thin profit margins, fees on 

card transactions can mean the difference between a profit and a 

loss each time they sell their goods. Even more troubling is the fact 

that this cost may fall disproportionately on small businesses since 

they often lack the market power to negotiate lower fees, as many 

large retail businesses do. 

However, payment cards also offer merchants a number of benefits. By accepting card payments, businesses can increase their 

sales and reach a wider customer base, including expanding into 

online/mail-order sales. These cards have the added benefit of providing merchants with guaranteed payment that is less prone to 

fraud, loss, or theft. Merchants also avoid the costs associated with 

handling cash, processing checks, and transporting funds to a bank 

when they accept card payments. 

Most importantly, however, the existence of national card payment networks means that every business in the country, regardless of its size, can sell its goods and services on credit cheaply and 

efficiently. Two decades ago, that was practically unheard of; today, 

it is commonplace. And the interchange system has made all that 

possible. 

Rarely does such a seemingly small issue have such a significant 

impact on the daily affairs of small businesses, small financial institutions, and customers alike. For this reason, it will be imperative that Congress and this Committee tread carefully in this area, 

as even a slight change to the system can have far-reaching consequences. That is what this hearing is about today. 

Last month, Congress took its first steps toward reforming the 

card payment system with provisions enacted under the Wall 

Street Reform Act. Today’s hearing will likely be the first of many 

discussions to examine how these new rules will impact American 

businesses and customers and give us crucial insights into how 

these laws can best be implemented. 

Small financial institutions, like credit unions and community 

banks, were not the cause of the financial free-fall we experienced 

in 2008 or the impetus for the Wall Street Reform Act. While Congress was forced to bail out the bad actors on Wall Street, credit 

unions and small businesses remained stable. As we move forward 

3 

with implementation of the new law, it is critically important that 

we do not unintentionally do harm to the small financial institutions that have played by the rules. 

I would like to thank our witnesses for their participation in today’s hearing. I look forward to your testimony. 

And, as we wait for a ranking member, in the interest of time 

we will just move forward with the hearing. And I will introduce, 

starting with Mr. Newton, our witnesses. 

I will read about all of you first, and then we will go to the testimony. So, the bios for the four of you—and thank you all for being 

here. 

Mr. Chris Newton is the president of the Texas Petroleum Marketers and Convenience Store Association, located in Austin, Texas. 

TPCA was formed in 1949 as the Texas Oil Jobbers Association to 

serve the regulatory, legislative, and educational needs of fuel and 

the lube oil business. 

I changed my mind. Why don’t we just go ahead with Mr. Newton first, and then we will introduce all of you. 

Welcome, Mr. Newton. 

STATEMENT OF CHRIS NEWTON 

Mr. NEWTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, my name is 

Chris Newton, and I appreciate this opportunity to talk about the 

impact of interchange fees on small businesses. 

As you alluded to, I am the president of the Texas Petroleum 

Marketers and Convenience Store Association, or TPCA. TPCA is 

a trade association representing fuel distributors and fuel retailers 

in Texas. Our members own, operate, and supply around 10,000 retail motor fuel outlets. Our members are also responsible, are collectively responsible, for the sale of about two-thirds of all the fuel 

sold in Texas. 

Interchange fee is a very important issue to our member companies. And it is important because it has a significant impact on 

small business because these fees, in our opinion, are anticompetitive. They are anticompetitive because the fees are centrally set by 

Visa and MasterCard and their member banks. There is an incentive to continue raising the fees to attract more member banks. 

The fees are hidden, and consumers are unaware of the fees’ escalation. We also see there is no price advantage for lower-priced 

cards. There is no ability to discount for cash. In fact, a recent 

study concluded that, without higher prices caused by fees above 

and beyond cost plus a reasonable rate of return, consumers would 

have an extra $26.9 billion and potentially add 242,000 jobs to the 

economy. 

For our industry, for the convenience store industry, the fees are 

our members’ second-highest cost, behind labor. But, unlike our 

other costs, we can’t do anything about these fees. They have increased dramatically over the last 13 years. Because we have no 

ability to negotiate these fees or offer our customers a lower-priced 

alternative, there is nothing we can do. 

The fees’ impact on small business also becomes more egregious 

when you consider that our retail profit margins average under 2 

percent, while the Federal Reserve of Kansas City has concluded 

that the profit margins for interchange fees are around 60 percent. 

4 

And to further give you some additional context for this, in 2009 our entire industry made pre-tax profits of $4.8 billion, but we paid 

fees to process card transactions of $7.4 billion. This inverse relationship between fees and profit stymies economic growth. 

The Durbin amendment to the financial reform bill recently 

passed by Congress will help small businesses and consumers cope 

with the impact of interchange fees and lead to additional economic 

growth. Consumers will benefit because the amendment will allow 

my members to reward lower-cost means of payment with lower 

prices. 

Small businesses, my members, will benefit because we will receive an assurance that interchange fees for debit transactions will 

be reasonable and proportionate to their cost. We will have the 

ability to offer our customers discounts for more efficient means of 

payment or lower-cost means of payment. And lower prices for consumers mean more sales for our members. 

So that concludes my opening remarks. I appreciate the opportunity to be with you today, and look forward to the discussion. 

[The statement of Mr. Newton is included in the appendix.] 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

Mr. Ron Celaschi is vice president of lending with the Clearview 

Federal Credit Union based in Moon Township, Pennsylvania. 

Clearview Federal Credit Union has 76,877 members and assets of 

$594 million. Clearview primarily serves the Pittsburgh metro 

area, though it also has branches in Philadelphia and Charlotte. 

Welcome. I look forward to hearing your testimony. 

STATEMENT OF RONALD CELASCHI 

Mr. CELASCHI. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for 

the opportunity to testify at today’s hearing. As you mentioned, I 

am Ron Celaschi, vice president of lending at Clearview Federal 

Credit Union. 

Just a little background on the credit union: We initially served 

the employees of US Airways and modified our charter back in 

2004 to serve communities in the 10-county area surrounding Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So our charter is a little bit expanded. 

I do appreciate the opportunity to present our views or interchange, what it means to small businesses, and also what it means 

to my credit union. 

To begin with, we are very concerned with the provisions of the 

recently enacted financial reform law which relate to interchange 

fees. At many credit unions, it is true that interchange revenue 

covers the cost of providing debit card access to their members; 

however, for our credit union, that is simply not the case. 

Last year, our total expense for offering a debit card access or 

program to our members was $2.9 million. The offsetting debitbased interchange income was roughly $1 million, causing us a 

shortfall of $1.9 million on a valuable service. 

How is this possible when merchants have been telling Congress 

that interchange fees are unreasonable? Clearview Federal Credit 

Union has an aging membership, and it is true that older members 

tend to use their debit cards less frequently than the younger members that we serve. In a recent survey conducted by the Credit 

Union National Association, credit unions reported an average 

5 

number of transactions per card per member at 160 per year. At 

Clearview, that number is only 69. 

So even though our members use their debit cards with less frequency than members of other credit unions, we still incur the total 

cost of running and administering a program. We run our program 

debit program at a loss because it provides a valuable service to 

our members. However, any reduction in interchange income that 

we receive will require us to impose fees on members to make up 

for that lost revenue. And that is a direct result of the recently enacted financial reform bill. 

The new debit interchange law includes an exemption or a 

carveout for card issuers with less than $10 billion in assets, like 

our credit union. However, this exemption provides me with little 

comfort. And why? Quite simply, about 80 percent of debit volume 

is accounted for by a handful of large issuers. The scale of their 

transactions enables the operation of a global network with enough 

capacity so that small issuers like us can participate. It is hard to 

imagine a carveout that would protect our credit union from the 

impact of new interchange regulation and the loss of revenue. 

We don’t know precisely how the system will change and in what 

ways, but we do know this: that an artificial marketplace will be 

created; the ability of small issuers to compete in the face of merchant pressure will be significant; the ability of small issuers to attract and retain customers will change; and merchants will become 

even more bold in their efforts to steer and influence consumers regarding payment method. 

Another aspect of the new law addresses the routing and processing for card transactions. No exemption or carveout currently 

exists for small financial institutions applying to the routing section of the law. In practice, this takes the routing decision away 

from the financial institution and places it in the hands of merchants. And the significance of that is the merchant’s objective is 

to cut the cost to the bottom line, while the financial institution’s 

objective is the security of the consumer’s personal information and 

that transaction. With this new law, the merchant’s objective clearly trumps the best interest of the consumer, in our opinion. 

That brings me to my second point: What will this interchange 

law mean to the small businesses in my community? As a credit 

union lending officer, I am very familiar with the challenges facing 

small businesses today. The interchange expenses incurred by 

small businesses are relatively insignificant compared to expenses 

associated with health-care costs, vendor and supplier expenses, 

franchise-related requirements or expenses, and certainly a difficult economy. In my experience within the credit union movement 

since 1991, I have yet to witness a business close based on elevated 

interchange expenses. 

But will the new debit interchange structure benefit big-box retailers? You bet it will. The Wall Street Journal recently reported, 

′′The new debit interchange law will, on an annual basis, mean a 

quarter of a billion dollars for Wal-Mart.′′ Someone needs to support this system. And if the buck is passed from the big-box retailer 

to the consumer, Wal-Mart wins big. And the same can’t be said 

about the consumer and Main Street small business. 

6 

And my final point: What actions can Congress take today that 

will truly help small businesses in our struggling economy? 

I think all of us come from different backgrounds, but we can 

agree upon the fact that there is a need to increase the amount of 

credit available to small businesses. There is legislation in place to 

increase the cap on credit-union-member business lending, and it 

has strong support in the House and Senate and key administration support as well. 

Pending legislation would increase the credit-union-member business lending cap from 12.25 percent of total assets to 27.5 percent. 

If this language were enacted this year, credit unions could lend to 

small businesses an additional $10 billion and create 100,000 new 

jobs in the first year after enactment at no cost to taxpayers. 

While bank business lending has contracted in recent years, 

credit union business lending has expanded. Clearview Federal 

Credit Union is committed to helping the small-business members 

in our community. In fact, our average business loan is approximately $70,000 and includes, among others, hair salons, landscaping companies, and several other sole proprietorships. It is my 

hope that Congress will act as soon as possible on this important 

issue. 

Mr. Chairman, I thank you very much for the opportunity to testify at today’s hearing. Clearview Federal Credit Union is proud to 

serve the citizens and small businesses of western Pennsylvania. 

And, at this time or after the other folks are finished, I would be 

pleased to answer any questions. Thank you. 

[The statement of Mr. Celaschi is included in the appendix.] 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

Our next witness is Mr. Robert Oeler. He is the president and 

chief executive officer of Dollar Bank, headquartered in Pittsburgh, 

Pennsylvania. Dollar Bank is a full-service regional bank, operating more than 50 branch offices and loan centers. 

Mr. Oeler is testifying on behalf of the American Bankers Association, which was founded in 1875 and is the voice for the Nation’s 

$13 trillion banking industry and its 2 million employees. 

Welcome, Mr. Oeler. 

STATEMENT OF ROBERT OELER 

Mr. OELER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for this opportunity. As you said, I am president and CEO of Dollar Bank, a traditional mutual bank that has served western Pennsylvania and 

northeastern Ohio for over 150 years. 

Any changes to the interchange system will impact all small 

businesses, small banks included. The vast majority of banks in our 

country are community banks—small businesses in their own right. 

In fact, over 3,200 banks and 6,100 credit unions have fewer than 

30 employees. 

When merchants choose to accept payment cards, they pay a 

small fee for the many benefits that come with accepting electronic 

payments. For example, a $10 debit transaction would cost the 

merchant less than 10 cents in interchange. In return, retailers 

typically see more customers, shorter wait times at the register, 

immediate payments to their account, and less hassle and risk of 

7 

managing cash. They also generally transfer the risk of fraud to 

the bank. 

These interchange fees pay to support a system that works 24/ 

7, 365 days a year, almost anywhere in the world. These fees are 

under attack by retailers, yet they are no different than any other 

cost of running a business. 

Restrictions on interchange fees were included in the recently enacted Dodd-Frank Act. The provision, called the Durbin amendment, requires the Federal Reserve to dictate the pricing of interchange on debit cards. The Durbin amendment, which was added 

to the bill without any hearings, limits consideration of many important costs of providing debit cards and does not even allow for 

a reasonable return on investment. Such uneconomic pricing will 

hurt my ability to offer reasonably priced banking products to consumers and small businesses in my community. 

Let me illustrate this. Last year, we processed 16 million debit card transactions and made less than $3 per month for each debit 

card. This revenue is important but does not cover our cost of 

maintaining a transaction account, which runs between $12 and 

$15 a month. Without this income, it becomes very difficult for 

many banks to continue to offer low- and no-cost checking for our 

customers. 

Loss of revenue has other impacts, as well, including making it 

harder to make loans. This is even more pronounced for Dollar 

Bank. Since we are a mutual, the only way we can raise capital 

is through retained earnings. If we lose interchange income, it 

means we will be unable to make as many loans in our community. 

In fact, if we would see a 50 percent reduction in after-tax income 

on interchange, it means 200 fewer small-business loans that can’t 

be made each year, year after year. For the industry as a whole, 

a 50 percent loss of interchange income would mean that lending 

could fall by as much as $74 billion. 

Congress recognized that setting price controls on interchange 

fees will have a significant negative impact on roughly 16,000 

small banks and credit unions. Congress attempted to remedy this 

problem by providing an exemption to the price controls for small 

banks. While this idea sounds good, there is no community banker 

that believes such an exemption will work in practice. As with any 

price controls, there are inevitable unintended consequences, market distortions, and higher costs for others, including consumers. 

While I realize the ink is barely dry on the Dodd-Frank Act, the 

negative consequences for banks and bank customers are so great 

that Congress should revisit and repeal this provision. Moreover, 

Congress should avoid further price controls, such as a restriction 

on credit card interchange fees. 

Government price setting of business-to-business transactions 

hurts the ability of local banks to serve consumers and local businesses. It affects banks in low-income communities looking to provide low-cost banking services to the underprivileged. And it stifles 

innovation in a system that has supported the development of electronic bill payment, the online retail market, and the promotion of 

enormous operational efficiencies for small businesses. 

Thank you for the opportunity to present the ABA’s views. I 

would be happy to answer any questions you may have. 

8 

[The statement of Mr. Oeler is included in the appendix.] 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you, Mr. Oeler. 

Our last witness is Mr. Jerry Buss. He is president of Aurora 

Huts, LLC, based in Seven Fields, Pennsylvania. Mr. Buss is the 

former COO of Pizza Hut. He bought 53 Pittsburgh-area Pizza Hut 

locations, making the company one of the largest Pizza Hut restaurant operators in the region. Aurora Huts owns roughly twothirds of the Pittsburgh market’s locations. 

Welcome, Mr. Buss. 

STATEMENT OF JERRY BUSS 

Mr. BUSS. Thank you, Chairman Altmire and members of the 

Committee. Good morning. I am honored to be here today to offer 

my perspective on credit card and debit card fees and how they affect my small business. I want to thank Chairman Altmire for his 

leadership on this Subcommittee and for giving us all the chance 

to air our views. 

I ask that my entire testimony be made part of the hearing 

record. 

As Chairman Altmire said, I operate now 55 Pizza Huts in western Pennsylvania. We employ around 1,300 employees, and we 

have a payroll of a little over $10 million. The business is a family 

business, as my children are also owners and operators of this business. And it is my desire to see this business grow and flourish and 

furnish an opportunity for them to have the lifelong satisfaction of 

being private business persons. 

Franchisees like myself and the actual restaurant owners operate most of the restaurants across the country. There are 6,500 

Pizza Huts, for instance, and almost all of them are operated by 

franchisees. And I believe that my views match the business model 

and customer payment realities for our franchisees nationwide. 

My restaurants are mostly located in small towns with populations of 2,000 to 10,000. In fact, we recently opened a new location in Mars, Pennsylvania, in early 2008, and we pumped $1.8 

million in development of that location and employed another 30 

employees. 

In that respect, we do not have to watch the evening news to understand the state of our economy. My customers, my employees, 

and I are all at the front end of the economy. Every store closing, 

every layoff, every tax regulation, and, yes, every missed mortgage 

payment directly affects all of us. At the same time, every new 

hire, every new business opening, and every new customer gives us 

a bit of optimism that we will pull through this. 

Congress has given merchants a lift. You have laid the groundwork to help us create a competitive market where no market 

forces prevailed. Let me be clear: I am pro-card and pro-bank. Both 

credit cards and debit cards are key forms of payment and are vital 

to the modern commerce. 

Here is the scope of my problem with interchange fees. In 2008— 

and roughly about 50 percent of my income comes through cards. 

In 2008, about $15 million represented fees of $345,000, or 2.252 

percent of my sales. As we look at 2010, and as of July 17th, I had 

about $10 million in money generated through cards and fees, and 

9 

I paid $249,000, or 2.443. That is an increase over 2-1/2 years of 

8.5 percent in my fee charges. 

Under the new rules, I am assuming that those fees will be more 

competitive and be reduced. And much has been said about where 

that money will go. Will it go to the consumer, or will it go in the 

merchant’s pocket? 

I want to reinvest in my business, as I believe all private entrepreneurs do. To kind of give a demonstration of how we did this, 

this year, for the last 8 months, we have reduced our prices to the 

consumer in a ′′$10 any large pizza.′′ That is $10, any pizza, any toppings. That is a discount of over $8. We ran that for over 8 

months, and we do believe that the community and our neighborhoods enjoyed that, thought well of it, and we picked up traffic to 

offset some of that. I believe that, as we do multiple efforts and we 

look for volume relationships, that we can have reduced costs. 

If I could just save the project—the money off of what we think the cost raising in 2010 would be, that would be $20,000. That 

would supply part of equity for a new building. It could be the addition of new menu items. It could be the revamping of our merit 

system for our employees. There are plenty of places within the 

economy, other than the entrepreneur’s pockets, that that would 

go. In fact, the word ′′greedy′′ has been used. And I would say, if 

you are truly greedy, you are going to be doing those things and 

growing your business. 

Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to you. 

[The statement of Mr. Buss is included in the appendix.] 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you, Mr. Buss. And as a resident of your area, I can tell you that that $10 pizza deal does, in fact, 

make a difference. I have two kids, and we have kept you in business—helped keep you in business. 

Mr. BUSS. Well, thank you. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Sure. 

Thank you all. This has been very instructive. And as you can 

see from the turnout we have among the public here to watch the 

hearing, this is an issue that has drawn great interest. 

And the Wall Street reform bill, of course, had any number of 

items in there that drew great public interest, but I will tell you, 

in the 2 years leading up to passage of that bill, there is no issue 

that I heard more about from more different people and coming 

from more different angles than the interchange fee. And that is 

the purpose of this hearing, is to bring you here. 

And the entire Committee will benefit from your testimony. As 

you can see from the diversity of testimony, this was not an attempt to skew what we were going to hear. We wanted to hear all 

sides of the debate. And you have done great in representing all 

sides. 

And I wanted to begin by asking each of you the same question, 

just to put in perspective what we are talking about and maybe a 

different opinion on the same question. And it is very simple. Most 

people in the country, when they go shopping, whether it be in 

Texas or Pennsylvania or wherever, generally most would go to a 

chain grocery store of some sort. We have Giant, Eagle, and Shop 

and Save, and others in western Pennsylvania. I don’t know if you 

have Publix or Safeway or what Texas has. 

10 

But if you go out for an outing with the family—and, of course, 

this bill only pertains to debit cards. And some of you alluded to 

the way that is going to affect credit cards, as well. But I am going 

to ask the question on credit cards for that reason. 

If you go out, you have dinner at a restaurant, a chain restaurant, you go shopping at the grocery store, maybe buy some gas 

at the corner gas station, use your credit card each time, what is 

the impact to the consumer from this regulation, say, a year from 

now, once this is fully in play and everyone has adjusted how they 

are going to adjust? What am I and my family going to see 

changed, as a consumer, for our credit card purchases for that 

evening of having bought those three different items? 

Mr. Buss? 

Mr. BUSS. I think you would see, on our behalf, an altering of 

the offerings and the prices that we have to charge for those offerings. We are very sensitive to the average check cost of our customers, and we try to lower that every possible way we can. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. So we will pay more? 

Mr. BUSS. No, less. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Less. Okay. 

Mr. Oeler? 

Mr. OELER. I think what you will see—many cards today come 

with some sort of rewards attached to them. They also tend not to 

have fees. I think if anything is altered along those lines, the rewards will begin to disappear, as well as we will be looking at, as 

we once did when credit cards were in their infancy, annual fees 

to carry the card with you. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. So we may not see more each time we use 

the card, but we will pay more to have the ability to access that 

card. 

Mr. OELER. That is correct, yes. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Okay. 

Mr. Celaschi? 

Mr. CELASCHI. I would agree with Mr. Oeler. And I would also 

add that you are going to see, on the consumer side, probably higher interest rates to make up for the lost revenue that the institutions will be getting as a result of the financial reform act. 

You know, in our case, at least on the debit side, we are looking 

at slicing that revenue in half and creating even a larger deficit, 

which we would have to pass on the cost to our members, which 

is something we are certainly averse to doing. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. You mean pass on the costs in their accounts, not just in the use of the card? 

Mr. CELASCHI. Not in their—additional fees, higher interest 

rates, potentially, on the credit card side and even on our lending 

side, which puts us at a competitive disadvantage. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Okay. 

Mr. Newton? 

Mr. NEWTON. I think what your family will see when they pull 

up to the gas station is that, if they are using a debit card, there 

may be a choice to use debit or credit, and there may be cost savings associated with the use of debit. Those cost savings stem not 

only from ensuring that debit interchange fees are reasonable and 

proportionate, but also stem from the fact that the financial reform 

11 

bill has a provision in it allowing merchants—I think they can select one of two networks in which to process the card from. 

One of the big issues right now in our industry is that there are 

instances where Visa and MasterCard will say, this particular 

debit card can only go through this particular network, and that 

may be at a higher fee. And so the Durbin amendment in the financial reform bill limits that to a certain extent and says, no, you 

can’t discriminate amongst these networks. 

So there may be a cheaper alternative. And I think, especially as 

it pertains to gasoline, you will see our industry, you know, doing 

all they can to bring those efficiencies to the marketplace to attract 

more consumers and hopefully lead to more sales. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

And I ask that question—let me just say, first of all, Mr. Buss, 

you asked that your testimony in total be included in the record. 

And I wanted to say, for the record, all of your written testimony 

will be included in total in the record for the Committee. 

I asked my first question so that Mr. Oeler and Mr. Celaschi 

could answer this question. The amount of interchange a business 

pays can vary wildly from one business to another, as you both 

mentioned. But small businesses, in general, pay more in interchange fees than retail giants like Wal-Mart and Target, which you 

referenced. 

How would you propose we address this discrepancy in the Congress to provide small businesses with greater fairness in how 

these fees are set? What recommendation would you have? 

Mr. OELER. We tend to mainly deal with small businesses, and 

our fees are established, you know, through the network. So our 

fees tend to be the same across the board. So we really haven’t negotiated any separate deals with the big-box retailers. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. What about on behalf of the American Bankers Association, when you would have banks that have maybe a 

larger scope than that? Is there a different spin to that? 

Mr. OELER. Well, I think what would happen, if there is the ability to have different fees for different institutions based on their 

usage, I think the customer would be at a disadvantage, you know, 

depending on the card they hold. For instance, if the big banks are 

able to have the discount and the small banks would not, our card 

would be disadvantaged to that retailer. 

So, thus, there might be some reason for the retailer to try to 

move the customer to another type of card or suggest another type 

of card so they can maximize their revenue. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Mr. Celaschi, do you want to comment on 

that? 

Mr. CELASCHI. Yes. We don’t believe that the proposed two-tier 

system, if you will, in practice is something that is viable. We believe that the 80 percent volume that I mentioned by a handful of 

issuers does not motivate that group to a two-tier issue. They 

would want to keep it at a one-tier, one-rate tier, if you will. And 

that puts us, again, at a disadvantage, our small businesses as well 

as our individual members as well. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. I wanted to follow up with Mr. Oeler. 

Over the past decade, as I referenced, with the steady growth in 

the number of credit card payments and the decline in the cost due 

12 

to technology advances, one could reasonably expect the cost of 

processing card payments would fall, given those two factors. Why, 

then, have interchange fees increased so significantly during that 

same period? 

Mr. OELER. The costs of business always go up. I don’t think it 

is been usurious, the increases. It is just a matter of maintaining 

a system, as I said, that operates 24/7, 365 days a year. The system 

itself always requires upgrades, new software, new controls. The 

fraud situation has increased over the years. We have had some 

breaches in cards, that the cards have to be reissued, and so on 

and so forth. So I think the increased cost helps compensate for 

that end of the business. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Okay. 

Mr. Buss, some have argued that capping interchange fees could 

result in a contraction of credit availability and a reduction in the 

number of rewards programs that over 80 percent of consumers 

currently enjoy. You heard both of our witnesses answer recently 

to that. 

Is there a risk that these consequences could then lead to a decline in sales for small firms and outweigh any savings that a rate 

cap would generate in the outset? 

Mr. BUSS. Yes, I believe that any time we see any increases on 

the ability to use the cards, that you are going to see some contracting on it. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Mr. Newton, did you want to comment on 

that? 

Mr. NEWTON. If I may ask, could you rephrase the question? 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Certainly. 

Mr. NEWTON. I want to make sure I answer you to the best of 

my ability. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Well, it deals with the rewards programs 

that we were talking about. Is there a risk that there would be a 

reduction in rewards and that those consequences could lead to a 

decline in sales for small firms and outweigh any savings that that 

rate cap would generate? 

Mr. NEWTON. I really don’t think so. This morning’s Wall Street 

Journal reports that Visa saw a 14 percent increase in the third 

quarter in credit card transactions. The majority of Visa—I am 

sorry, the majority of Visa transactions are debit cards. So, you 

know, I think that there is a lot of choice out there, and I think, 

as consumers are given those choices, they are going to make intelligent decisions about which way to go. 

I think right now we have a system where—and this is an example from my office. One of my employees opened a checking account 

with a bank and got a debit card from the bank, saying, ′′Here is 

your debit card.′′ And on the debit card, on the piece of paper that 

it came with, it said, ′′Please, when you go to a retail marketplace, 

tell the retailer to ring the sale up as credit signature.′′ Credit signature is obviously a much higher rate as the debit card than PIN 

debit. ′′And, if you do that, we will then give you 450 reward 

points.′′ 

So there is an incentive to steer the consumer to a higher-priced 

fee transaction, even though signature credit is much more prone 

to fraud and less secure than using a PIN debit. And so that is one 

13 

of the issues that I think the Durbin amendment—I know the Durbin amendment addresses. And I think that is to everybody’s good. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. And do you have the ability right now to 

incentivize cash and check transactions from your consumers? 

Mr. NEWTON. It is hard to answer. I know that the Durbin 

amendment explicitly authorizes discount for cash. 

Another anecdote from Texas, if you will bear with me: One of 

my members attempted to offer a discount for cash for people who 

use gasoline. And a representative of Visa or MasterCard happened 

to be driving down the road and pulled into the store and said, 

′′What are you doing?′′ And he said, ′′Well, I want to give people 

a discount for cash.′′ He had contacted me.. I discussed it with staff 

from our State AG’s office, and they said, under Texas law, discounting is permitted. 

The representative of the card company said, ′′Absolutely not. It 

is against our rules.′′ He called me and asked about it. I said, ′′Well, ask him to show you the rule, and then we can distribute 

it to members of our association, just saying, ’You need to be aware 

of this compliance issue.’′′ The Visa/MasterCard person then 

claimed that, ′′I can’t show it to you. But, trust me, it is against 

the rules.′′ 

So this merchant was left with the choice of, okay, do I discount 

for cash and run the threat of Visa/MasterCard knocking me out 

of the system and suspending my access to the network, or do I 

continue to offer this discount for cash? And he chose to not continue that practice because he was afraid, and I think all retail 

merchants are afraid, of that threat because Visa and MasterCard 

control, I believe it is, 80 percent of the market. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

I wanted to get back to our witnesses from the credit union and 

bank side, and start with Mr. Oeler. 

Under new provisions of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Act, 

merchants will have the right to offer discounts not only for cash 

but also for checks and debit cards. Will these changes in the law 

have an effect on credit card use, as you see it? 

Mr. OELER. When we talk about offering discounts—I will just 

present our information. As I said in my testimony, we had 16 million transactions we processed last year. The average ticket of that 

transaction or the average transaction amount was right around 

$35. 

When you are looking at debit cards, you are looking at less than 

1 percent. So I guess, is it realistic that the retailers would offer 

a discount of 35 cents, you know, on a transactional basis. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Mr. Celaschi? 

Mr. CELASCHI. As far as the discount for cash, checks, and debit, 

I don’t know that it would have that great of an impact, solely because of the convenience and the popularity of the debit card transaction. People are more likely to carry the debit card than even 

cash and checks these days, as far as a payment processing. So 

what I do believe we would see is a decrease in the transactions 

on the credit side as a result of the discount, significantly. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Talk about—for the two of you, and then I 

will go to Mr. Newton and Mr. Buss, as well. Are there risks that 

the consumer will be confused and frustrated by having two difVerDate Aug 31 2005 15:46 Nov 15, 2010 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERKS~1\HEARINGS\TRANSC~1\57522.TXT DARIEN
14 

ferent prices for goods depending on their chosen method of payment, if this were to lead to that? 

Mr. CELASCHI. I believe so, because I believe the consumer considers that plastic a credit card, whether it is debit or credit, as 

their form of payment, regardless of it coming out of their checking 

account or being a revolving line of credit. So there is a risk of confusion. 

I think one important point to add to all of this, too, when we 

are talking about discounts and reducing the interchange rates is, 

the liability for any fraud or problem on the plastic transaction lies 

with the institution, not the consumer and not the merchant. So 

those costs have to be considered when we talk about the interchange income that we are receiving, as well. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Mr. Oeler? 

Mr. OELER. I would agree with that comment. 

I think we had a huge breach up in the New England area that 

had ramifications across the country when we had a breach in their 

card system. I know we had to reissue several thousand cards ourselves. There are other members of the ABA that I talked to just 

last week. One in particular was a $1 billion institution located out 

in the Philadelphia area, and he had to reissue 10,000 cards. That 

stuff comes at a high cost to the institution itself, and we bear that 

cost, you know, through the current interchange setup. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Mr. Newton, do you have any concerns about 

different pricing levels giving the consumers some confusion? 

Mr. NEWTON. Shortly, no. I trust our members and the hundreds 

of thousands, if not millions, of retailers out there across this country, across all businesses, to communicate the message and to let 

consumers know of lower prices available for more efficient means 

of payment. 

So I think the industry has shown time and time again, especially for the industry that I am in, gasoline, we compete on price. 

And I just don’t see it being an issue, because I think the consumer 

expects it and they expect a lower price. And once they become 

aware of a lower price associated with the use of a debit card when 

compared to their traditional credit card, I fully expect the entrepreneurs in our association across this country are going to find a 

way to make sure that they are aware of it and that they take advantage of that opportunity. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Mr. Buss? 

Mr. BUSS. Well, I do think it may afford us an opportunity in 

business to attract more consumers. I am gravely concerned about 

trying to get that message across, that you have several ways to 

pay and you have different prices with those ways to pay. 

For instance, a little over 50 percent of our revenue comes in at 

home. We deliver to the homes. We would have a difficulty there 

with debit cards because of PINs. We generally take them as credit 

cards in that situation. 

I will add also to a little earlier comment that you were asking 

about. And that is, I have noticed over the economy slowdown that 

we have moved off of credit cards and debit cards and moved back 

into more checks from the consumers, at least in the area where 

I do business and where my fellow franchisees do business. So I do 

think the consumer has some interest in what is going on with 

15 

some of this, and I do think they are moving around a little bit 

more. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Okay. 

Mr. Newton, have you had that same experience in the slowdown, with people using checks and cash more often than they 

were in the past? 

Mr. NEWTON. No. With fuel, our members have experienced increased usage of both credit and debit. With debit, I would say that 

our members in the urban areas—so, Dallas, Houston, Austin—say 

90 percent of their transactions are either on credit or debit cards. 

And of that 90 percent, 50 percent to 60 percent are associated 

with debit cards. 

So I think, speaking for the fuel end of it, as we have seen the 

volatility in prices and everything else, consumers continue to 

choose either credit or debit cards. 

Mr. OELER. Mr. Chairman, may I add something? 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Certainly, of course. 

Mr. OELER. Kind of on a practical basis. I have two sons, one 28 

and one 33. And, frankly, they never have cash with them. To 

them, the cards are the cash. So if you ask them for a few dollars, 

you know, they hold a card up, but there is not much you can do 

about it. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Right. 

I wanted to move to Mr. Buss again. As you know, proponents 

of maintaining the status quo on interchange fees have characterized the interchange fee as simply one more cost of doing business, 

not unlike utility or labor costs. And it is said that merchants can 

stop accepting card payments if costs outweigh the benefits. 

From your perspective, can a business realistically expect to operate without accepting card payments today? Which is a good follow-up from what we just heard from Mr. Oeler. 

Mr. BUSS. No, I do not believe that we could. 

Like with checks, that would probably be beneficial to move away 

from checks and into cards if you could, but we cannot get that 

done. We have tried that over the years and not been able to do 

that. 

So, no, I think in our situation we would take any way of payment to continue to grow our business. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. And a question for Mr. Celaschi—did you 

want to answer something on that? 

Mr. CELASCHI. No. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Okay. At a recent conference hosted by European Central Bank, policymakers and banking experts suggested 

adopting a card fee system that took into account the cost that 

businesses would pay to operate their own credit card systems. 

Do you think that that type of system would have merit in this 

country? 

Mr. CELASCHI. I believe that there should certainly be discussion 

and research into that. Any alternative that is consumer-friendly 

and small-business-friendly I am in favor of. 

I would further say, with regard to the interchange, that we as 

Clearview Federal Credit Union receive on, for example, a $100 

purchase, our revenue would be something between $1.30 and 

16 

$1.50, which, in my opinion, does not seem excessive or unreasonable. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Mr. Oeler, do you think that is something 

we should explore in this country? 

Mr. OELER. If I read correctly, about a month ago, I believe, Target is actually looking to do that. They are looking to have their 

own card. 

If you recall, when cards were in their infancy, it used to be that 

the vendors all had their own cards and they weren’t part of the 

overall network. So it is possible you could see some movement 

back to that. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Sticking with looking at what other countries have done, I wanted to ask Mr. Newton about Australia. I 

don’t know if you are aware that since Australia placed a cap on 

interchange fees in 2003, their central bank found a sharp decrease 

in the availability of rewards cards and no conclusive proof of lower 

prices for consumers. 

Why do you believe that tighter caps on interchange rates in this 

country would be met with better results than they saw in Australia? 

Mr. NEWTON. Well, it is my understanding that there was a study done by the Australian bank that found that there was $1 

billion worth of—so there may be two different studies. 

My contention in regards—and, again, speaking from the fuel 

perspective—is that our industry is extremely price-competitive. 

And our members are constantly looking for new ways to attract 

consumers or customers to their stores. And so, any means out 

there available that this new law will put at their disposal they 

will take advantage of. 

And I think, I am confident—and I would also bring up, the Department of Energy has studied fuel prices and found that 100 percent of the cost decreases are reflected in retail gasoline prices. So 

I think we have a solid background of passing on those things. The 

Hispanic Institute issued a report that said the same thing, because consumers are already paying these fees. 

So I am confident that here in the United States there will be 

some movement as entrepreneurs, again, take advantage of the 

freedom of choice that this legislation provides. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. And I would ask if your association could forward to the Committee the study that you referenced, 

because we would love to see any further information. 

Mr. NEWTON. Yes, sir. I would be happy to. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Sticking with Mr. Newton, the business community has consistently maintained the high cost of interchange is 

passed along to consumers and that the Federal caps interchange 

could result in lower costs for goods and services. 

If interchange fees were capped, what guarantees would we have 

that those savings would be passed along to consumers? How do we 

know for sure that is what is going to happen? 

Mr. NEWTON. I think you know for sure because it is economics. 

Lower prices mean more sales. So it is to our members’ advantage 

to ensure that they are offering the lowest-priced products out 

there they can to attract consumers to their retail facility. Our 

17 

market does not allow a retailer to sit on margin very long. You 

can drive through any community and know exactly what we are 

selling our products for. And so, just the competitive market forces 

are not going to allow that. 

And I think that is really what this bill addresses, is if the competitive market forces are not present, and now these interchange 

fees are set. And this bill seeks to remedy that and to ensure that 

the fees are reasonable and proportionate, to offer choice or some 

semblance of choice when it comes to network processing. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Mr. Buss, did you want to comment on that? 

Mr. BUSS. Yeah, I would wholeheartedly support that. I do believe that the lower you can drive the prices, the higher you can 

drive the business. I do think we look for tenths of a percent. 

Mr. OELER. May I add something, Mr. Chairman? 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Mr. Oeler, certainly. 

Mr. OELER. The Durbin amendment itself does not allow for a 

reasonable rate of return. So that is going to be an interesting discussion. You know, obviously, based on Mr. Celaschi and myself, 

you know, we need to make a rate of return, too, a combination to 

stay in business and continuing to lend to the community. So, you 

know, the fee has to be established to provide a reasonable rate of 

return. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Mr. Celaschi, do you want to have the final 

word on that? 

Mr. CELASCHI. I would only add that, you know, with respect to 

Mr. Newton’s comments on—and I have full confidence that his 

group would do that, would reduce the cost as their costs are reduced. Our concern is the big-box retailers, for lack of a better 

term. Who is the police of seeing consumer prices being lowered 

there? Does the Fed wash their hands once these tiers are set? And 

who talks about consumer prices? And, at the end of the day, the 

consumer and the small-business owners run our business. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. So, before we conclude, again, the purpose of 

the hearing was to hear all points of view. And you all did a wonderful job in doing that. And I tried in my questioning, as you saw, 

to try to give you different perspectives and allow you to answer 

what some of the criticisms have been from your points of view. 

So I wanted to end the hearing by allowing each of you, if you 

choose—you don’t have to—based on what we have discussed 

today, do you have anything else you would like the Committee to 

consider as we move forward? Was there any point that wasn’t 

brought up or rebuttal that you want to make that you wanted to 

have the opportunity to do? 

Start with Mr. Newton. 

Mr. NEWTON. Let me first say thank you. We appreciate this opportunity to appear before the Committee today, and I thought this 

was an excellent discussion of all of the issues. 

I think there is not a specific point that I would bring up, but 

I would, in a more general sense, applaud the passage of the Durbin amendment because it does seek to reverse the incentives that 

are present in the market today and to bring some competitive 

market forces to this, which is something that my members deal 

with every day. And I think that is to the good of the American 

economy and to the good of the American people. 

18 

So we appreciate it. Thank you. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

Mr. Celaschi? 

Mr. CELASCHI. In closing, I would only say that the benefit to the 

merchant level would be clearly outweighed by the harm done to 

the average consumer and the small business. We, as a $630 million credit union, I consider us a small business. And the impact 

of the loss of revenue is certainly significant and would have a significant impact on both the credit union, our individual members, 

and our small-business members. 

And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for inviting me to the hearing. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

Mr. Oeler? 

Mr. OELER. Mr. Chairman, I would also like to thank you. I 

thought you did a good job in being fair across the board. 

I would just like to add that, whichever way it goes, the consumer, whether they pay indirectly through interchange or directly 

if they lose out on free checking, you know, somehow the consumer 

is going to end up paying for this, and I think that is going to be 

the bottom line. 

I think you have already seen Wells Fargo, as of July 1st, announce that there is no more free checking across their system. I 

think Bank of America is exploring different fee structures, so they 

are heading in that direction. And I think any alteration in the 

interchange will lead more to go in that direction. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

Mr. Buss? 

Mr. BUSS. Again, Chairman Altmire, thank you very much for 

being here. 

As I close, I would only ask, as we enter this phase of Federal 

rulemaking, that the Oversight Committee be diligent in ensuring 

that the final bill that comes out is as it was intended and is written so. 

Thank you. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

Thank you all. This was a great discussion. It is the first of many 

hearings we are going to have on this topic, but I think we moved 

the ball down the field a little bit. 

And I now ask unanimous consent that Members will have 5 

days to submit statements and supporting materials for the record. 

Without objection, so ordered. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. And this hearing is now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:00 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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