1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Public Hearing on the

7 PROPOSED CLEAN POWER PLAN

8 FOR EXISTING POWER PLANTS

9

10

11 9:02 a.m. to 4:55 p.m.

12 Wednesday, July 30, 2014

13

14 Omni Hotel at CNN Center

15 100 CNN Center

16 North Tower, Level M4, Room B

17 Atlanta, GA 30303

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1 EPA PANEL NUMBER 1:

2 FRED THOMPSON, Panel 1 Chair; and

3 Associate Division Director,

4 Sectors, Policies, and Programs Division,

5 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards,

6 EPA

7 NICK HUTSON, Chemical Engineer, Office of

8 Research and Development, EPA

9 GREG WORLEY, Air Program Manager, Region 4,

10 EPA

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12

13

14 EPA PANEL NUMBER 2:

15 REID HARVEY, Panel 2 Chair; and

16 Director, Clean Air Markets Division, Office

17 of Air and Radiation, EPA

18 DARRYL WEATHERHEAD, Managing Economist, Office of

19 Air and Radiation, EPA

20 CAROL KEMKER, Deputy Air Division Director,

21 Region 4, Southeast, EPA

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1 PANEL NUMBER 3:

2 CAROL KEMKER, Panel 3 Chair; and

3 Deputy Air Division Director, Region 4,

4 Southeast, EPA

5 DARRYL WEATHERHEAD, Managing Economist, Office of

6 Air and Radiation, EPA

7 REID HARVEY, Director, Clean Air Markets

8 Division, Office of Air and Radiation, EPA

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 PAGE

3 PANEL NUMBER 1

4 DOUG GRIMMETT, Atlanta small business owner 15

5 BYRON BURROWS, Tampa Electric Company 17

6 JAY MOON,

7 Mississippi Manufacturers Association 24

8 ROBERT MANNING,

9 Florida Electric Power Coordinating Group 29

10 BECKY RAFTER, Georgia WAND 36

11 CHRIS CARNEVALE,

12 Southern Alliance for Clean Energy 42

13 JAY HAKES, Former Energy Director, Florida 49

14 CHARLES JONES, 

15 Georgia Association of Manufacturers 53

16 BRION FITZPATRICK, 

17 Georgia Solar Energy Association 60

18 MARTIN McCONAUGHY, Retired educator 67

19 STEPHEN WINGEIER, Resident of Georgia 74

20 JAMES CARLSON, Alabama Department of

21 Environmental Management 79

22 JOHN MYERS, Tennessee Valley Authority 83

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 PANEL NUMBER 1 (continued)

4 SETH GUNNING, Sierra Club 87

5 GREG MULLIS, Tri-County EMC, Gray, Georgia 93

6 TREY GLENN, Business Council of Alabama 97

7 DAVID HARMAN, CPA, North Carolina 101

8 HARVARD AYERS, Retired professor, Appalachian 

9 State University 106

10 HARRY GREGORY, Savannah State University 112

11 MICHAEL CHURCHMAN,

12 Alabama Environmental Council 115

13 CHRISTY CHEWNING, Central Georgia Electric 

14 Membership Corporation 121

15 FREE POLAZZO, Greening Georgia 124

16 GREG ANDECK, Environmental Defense Fund 130

17 WENDELL RIGSBY, UMWA Local 7930 135

18 DARYL H. DEWBERRY, District 20, UMWA 140

19 DWIGHT CAGLE, UMWA Local 2397 145

20 THOMAS F. WILSON, Alabama coal miner 148

21 RICKEY KORNEGAY, Retired coal miner

22 EARL BOB WISE, Retired coal miner 152

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 PANEL NUMBER 1 (continued)

4 CASEY SHELTON, International Brotherhood of

5 Electrical Workers 162

6

7 PANEL NUMBER 2

8 AUGUST PRESCHLE, Industrial engineer 176

9 VINCENT HALL 182

10 BETH BOND, Southeast Green 186

11 JORDAN THRASHER, United Methodist Church 192

12 PATRICK CAGLE, JobKeeper Alliance 200

13 MARITA NOON,

14 Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow 204

15 RANDALL MORRIS, MORRIS FARMS 211

16 RANDALL REESE, Resident of Virginia 218

17

18 PANEL NUMBER 3

19 ROSS GORDON, Atlanta Urban Debate League 222

20 STEVEN JACKSON, MEAC Power 227

21 KELLY COLES, Hiker 233

22 STEVE DAVIDSON, Resident of Austin, Texas 238

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 PANEL NUMBER 3 (continued)

4 RIONTE McCORKLE, Georgia Sierra Club 243

5 CONNOR HAWLEY, Chattahoochee High School 250

6 SARAH LETTES, Pace Academy 257

7 ELISABETH McNAMARA, League of Women Voters 260

8 SUSAN GAMBLE, Resident of Lawrenceville,

9 Georgia 265

10 GARY SPIKULA, Resident of Lawrenceville,

11 Georgia 267

12 FELICIA DAVIS, Georgia Kids Against Pollution 271

13 LAURA MATTOX, Resident of Georgia 276

14 SUE GLOOR, Resident of Atlanta, Georgia 280

15 JANELLE WRIGHT, University of Virginia 284

16 RHONDA MAYO, Resident of Chicago, Illinois 288

17 GLORIA TATUM 292

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 PANEL NUMBER 1

3 MR. THOMPSON: For the record, this is 

4 the Public Hearing on the Proposed Carbon 

5 Pollution Plan and Proposed Carbon Pollution 

6 Standards for Modified and Reconstructed Power 

7 Plants, being held in Atlanta, Georgia, on July 

8 30th, 2014.

9 Good morning. My name is Fred Thompson, 

10 and I'm the Associate Division Director of the 

11 Sectors, Policies, and Programs Division in EPA's 

12 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards, and 

13 one of the chairs of today's public hearing. 

14 Thank you all for coming today. Joining me on 

15 the panel are, to my left, Nick Hutson, one of 

16 the engineers leading the rule; and to my right, 

17 Greg Worley, an Air Program Manager for EPA 

18 Region 4.

19 We're here today to listen to your 

20 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

21 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

22 of these proposed rules on June 2nd, 2014.

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1 Power plants are the largest source of 

2 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

3 roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

4 emissions. The first rule is EPA's proposed 

5 Clean Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

6 proposal consists of two main parts: state7 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

8 power plants; and guidelines to help states 

9 develop their plans for meeting the goals.

10 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

11 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

12 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

13 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

14 their goals by 2030.

15 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

16 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

17 and reconstructed power plants.

18 This rule would set emissions limits for 

19 two groups of power plants: those that make 

20 physical or operational changes that increase the 

21 plant's maximum achievable hourly rate of 

22 emissions; and those that replace components to 

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1 such an extent that the new components exceed 50 

2 percent of the capital costs of an entirely new, 

3 comparable facility.

4 If you would like more details on either 

5 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

6 available near the registration desk out front.

7 Today's hearing is one of four public 

8 hearings across the country this week on the two 

9 proposed rules. We've had a tremendous interest 

10 in each of the hearings, and I'd like to thank 

11 all of you for taking time out of your day today 

12 to join us and to share your comments.

13 We have a lot of people signed up to 

14 speak today. And we want to hear from all of 

15 them. So, before we get started, I'd like to go 

16 through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 

17 that will help make today's hearing run smoothly.

18 First, be sure you have checked in at the 

19 registration desk even if you are not planning to 

20 speak today. And if you signed up to speak, 

21 online or by phone, but haven't told us that 

22 you're here, please step out to the registration 

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1 desk and let the EPA staff know there that you 

2 have arrived.

3 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

4 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

5 or Room B. This is Room B. So, let me ask

6 first: Are you in the right room? And if not, 

7 this would be the idea time for you to make the 

8 switch.

9 Okay. Here's how today's hearing will 

10 work. I will call speakers up in pairs. When 

11 your name is called, please come to the table at 

12 the front of the room. When I call on you to 

13 speak, please state your name and spell it for

14 the court reporter. Your comments will be 

15 transcribed and included in the record of 

16 comments on the proposed rule. 

17 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

18 give comments. We have a light, to my left here,

19 to help you know how much time you have left to 

20 speak. When the light turns from green to 

21 yellow, that you means you have one minute 

22 remaining. When it turns red, that's a signal to 

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1 wrap up your testimony. The light will flash red 

2 and beep when you have spoken for five minutes, 

3 and at that particular time, it's time to stop 

4 your testimony.

5 When you're finished speaking, please 

6 remain at the table until the person next to you 

7 has completed his or her testimony.

8 Now, we're here today to listen to you. 

9 However, a panel member may ask you questions to 

10 clarify your comments. I will then call up the 

11 next pair of speakers, and so on.

12 If you've brought a written copy of your 

13 testimony, please give that to the staff at the 

14 registration desk before you leave today.

15 Because of the large number of people who 

16 have signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 

17 everyone, we're going to have to strictly enforce 

18 the five-minute limit.

19 If you have additional comments that you 

20 would like to make, you can submit them in 

21 writing. Let me assure you that EPA gives just 

22 as much consideration to comments we receive in 

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1 writing as we do to comments we receive at public 

2 hearings like this one. So, if you have more 

3 that you would like to say, please submit it. 

4 Your comments will be reviewed.

5 There's still plenty of time to get 

6 written comments in, and there are comment cards 

7 available at the registration desk out front. 

8 Comments must be received by October 16th, 2014. 

9 And I will repeat that: Comments must be 

10 received by October 16th, 2014.

11 We will put any written comments 

12 submitted today in the official docket for the 

13 proposed rule. Instructions for submitting 

14 written comments in other ways are available at 

15 the materials table near the registration desk.

16 We're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

17 tonight. And we'll take a lunch and dinner 

18 break. Right now, the lunch break is scheduled 

19 for noon and the dinner break is scheduled for 

20 five o'clock. In addition, we may take 

21 occasional short breaks throughout the day as 

22 needed.

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1 If you have any questions during the day, 

2 please see the staff at the registration desk, 

3 and someone will try to help you.

4 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

5 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

6 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

7 views in the audience, and we want to hear from 

8 all of you. So we can do that and to be fair, we 

9 ask that everyone listen quietly. Even applause 

10 can slow things down, and we want to hear from 

11 everyone who has signed up to speak.

12 Thank you again for taking the time today 

13 to share your comments on EPA's proposed rules. 

14 And with that, let's get started.

15 At this time, I would like to ask Doug 

16 Grimmett and Byran Burrows to please come forward 

17 for testimony.

18 [Pause.]

19 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen.

20 [Chorus of "Good morning."]

21 MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for coming.

22 MR. GRIMMETT: Thanks for having us.

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1 MR. BURROWS: Thank you for coming.

2 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Starting with Mr. 

3 Grimmett, please pronounce and spell your name 

4 for the court reporter and begin your testimony.

5 MR. GRIMMETT: Yes. I'm Doug Grimmett. 

6 It's G-r-i-m-m-e-t-t. I have a small business in 

7 Atlanta. And I've been here for 20 years, and we 

8 employ 30 full-time people, and we work for 

9 entertainment and media companies all over the 

10 world. So we're very much engaged in the global 

11 market. We have to -- it's a very competitive 

12 market.

13 We have to compete for talent. And 

14 that's where the EPA Clean Power Plan gives us 

15 enormous competitive advantage, because the 

16 quality -- you know, what -- the jobs at Primal 

17 Screen require a great deal of skill and talent. 

18 And what attracts great talent is a good quality 

19 of life.

20 That means good air, good water, and a 

21 vibrant urban scene, and good transportation 

22 options. And I think I have read about the rule, 

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1 so I'm not -- I don't have any technical opinions 

2 about it. I, just in general, I think anything 

3 that gives us a better environment, better air, 

4 better water, is very good for small businesses, 

5 especially businesses in the high-tech sector, 

6 which I am in.

7 I think the cost of cheap fossil fuel is 

8 far greater in the long run when you add in the 

9 expense of bad health, dirty environment, and, of 

10 course, the loss of brain power, which you're 

11 seeing in China right now.

12 I feel I represent my colleagues in the 

13 high-technology entrepreneurial sector. And 

14 electricity is totally essential for what we do. 

15 It's essential for technical innovation. But how 

16 we generate it is what's going to determine our 

17 future. So I think we should do everything we 

18 can to monitor and restrict CO2 emissions.

19 And I want to thank you, EPA 

20 representatives, for doing a great job of really 

21 thinking this through and establishing 

22 regulations that will improve our lives and that 

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1 will help small businesses thrive. That's my 

2 statement.

3 Thank you.

4 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Grimmett.

5 Mr. Burrows.

6 MR. BURROWS: My name is Byron Burrows. 

7 That's B-u-r-r-o-w-s. Byron is B-y-r-o-n.

8 I'm a professional engineer and Manager 

9 of Air Programs with Tampa Electric Company. 

10 Tampa Electric is an investor-owned utility 

11 located in west central Florida, with over 

12 687,000 residential, commercial, and industrial 

13 customers that depend on us for reliable power 

14 and value-added energy services.

15 Tampa Electric has served our community 

16 for over 115 years and currently utilizes a 

17 balanced fuel mix of coal and natural gas. In 

18 2005, Tampa Electric completed the first part of 

19 a $1.2 billion initiative that reduced carbon 

20 dioxide emissions by 20 percent from 1998 levels. 

21 By repowering the coal units to a natural gas 

22 combined-cycle system, 5 million tons of CO2 

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1 reductions have been realized every year since 

2 2005.

3 These reductions were memorialized by our 

4 participation in voluntary, but legally binding, 

5 greenhouse gas trading program from 2003 to 2010, 

6 and they are valid reductions. The substantial 

7 CO2 reductions resulted from an agreement with 

8 EPA. This was the very first agreement in EPA's 

9 ongoing New Source Review enforcement program.

10 As a result of this agreement with the 

11 EPA, TECO and her customers have made a 

12 substantial investment to make early reductions. 

13 And EPA's proposal for existing sources neglects 

14 to account for this bold and early action. EPA 

15 penalizes the early action.

16 If Florida limits outlined in this 

17 proposal are finalized in their current form, our 

18 customers will be paying twice for the same 

19 reductions many other companies deferred until 

20 now. Projects that are part of the billion21 dollar reductions we recently completed are 

22 amortized over the remaining life of the coal 

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1 plant beyond 2030.

2 To minimize the impact of the customers' 

3 bills in this proposal would created stranded 

4 assets. The benefits of these reductions, 5 

5 million tons of CO2 per year, have been realized 

6 for each of the last 10 years.

7 EPA should work with the states to adjust 

8 the goals relating to block 2 to a level that 

9 recognizes this early action, acknowledges the 

10 importance of fuel diversity, preserves the 

11 thousands of jobs at risk, and allows existing 

12 units to exist and operate with the confines of 

13 the Clean Air Act.

14 In addition, EPA's proposal penalizes 

15 early action we've already taken with respect to 

16 block 1, boiler efficiency improvements. TECO 

17 and many other utilities have already completed 

18 the relevant efficiency improvement projects 

19 outlined by EPA to get these emissions 

20 reductions. The EPA's goal-setting exercise for 

21 Florida simply assumes a reduction from 

22 efficiency improvements as plausible without due 

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1 consideration of whether or not potential 

2 measures have already been completed.

3 This would arbitrarily reward those who 

4 delayed maintenance on power plants until after 

5 2012 and penalize others who have proactively 

6 made reductions. States should be afforded the 

7 flexibility to work with EPA to adjust the goal 

8 if the appropriate efficiency projects that EPA 

9 assumes are feasible and have already been 

10 completed or would not achieve the reduction EPA 

11 projects.

12 Unfortunately, EPA's proposal also 

13 directly penalizes our customers. In addition to 

14 paying for substantial emission reductions 

15 described earlier, they've been participating in 

16 energy efficiency programs that TECO has 

17 incentivized since 1979. Indeed, participation 

18 in the programs has been diminishing as the 

19 energy efficiency opportunities have been 

20 depleted in the 35 years of this already21 successful program.

22 Again, the EPA proposal penalizes these 

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1 proactive and forward-thinking customers who are 

2 now benefiting from a lower bill, because these 

3 customers would undoubtedly see a substantially 

4 higher bill due to the additional costs this 

5 proposal would bring.

6 EPA should recognize that the decades of 

7 early action, as well as new appliance and 

8 building codes, are already reducing load demand, 

9 and EPA should work with states to adjust the 

10 goal if the remaining reductions are found to be 

11 too expensive or simply not practical.

12 We share the concern of our legal counsel 

13 that the rule, as proposed, does not comport with 

14 the intent or spirit of the Clean Air Act, which 

15 is ill-suited for EPA's approach of the rule. We 

16 also share the concerns of various organizations 

17 that we support in evaluating this rule, 

18 including Florida Electric Power Coordinating 

19 Group, Class of 85, and Edison Electric 

20 Institute.

21 We will join these groups in preparing

22 and submitting written comments elaborating on 

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1 the concerns voiced here today. We desire to 

2 provide substantive evidence of our observations 

3 described above, and we're actively collaborating

4 with other utilities and organizations in this 

5 regard.

6 We've participated in previous hearings 

7 on this matter, met individually with the EPA and 

8 Florida representatives, and have participated in 

9 numerous meetings with our stakeholder groups. 

10 It's evident that a robust evaluation is 

11 warranted. Therefore, we request an extra, an 

12 additional 90 days to prepare a more complete 

13 analysis.

14 To summarize, the EPA proposed rule, if 

15 implemented as currently drafted, would penalize 

16 our customers and our company for substantial 

17 early action taken to reduce CO2 emissions. Our 

18 low-income customers would disproportionately be 

19 negatively impacted. Our analysis to this point 

20 indicated that EPA's proposal pushes each 

21 building block beyond practical application. 

22 This could be rectified for accounting for the $1 

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1 billion repowering.

2 Thank you for the opportunity to 

3 participate in this hearing and submit our 

4 comments.

5 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Burrows.

6 Are there any questions for either Mr. 

7 Grimmett or Mr. Burrows?

8 MR. HUTSON: My question for Mr. Grimmett 

9 is, you mentioned your company name, but I didn't 

10 catch it.

11 MR. GRIMMETT: It's Primal Screen. 

12 Primal Screen.

13 MR. HUTSON: Primal Screen.

14 MR. GRIMMETT: S-c-r-e-e-n.

15 MR. THOMPSON: All right. Well, 

16 gentleman, thank you both for your testimony.

17 [Pause.]

18 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Our next speakers 

19 are Jay Moon and Robert Manning. Jay Moon and 

20 Robert Manning.

21 [Pause.]

22 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen.

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1 [Chorus of "Good morning."]

2 MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us this 

3 morning.

4 I'd like to start with you, Mr. Moon. If 

5 you will just state and spell your name for the 

6 court reporter, and then you can begin testimony.

7 MR. MOON: Thank you very much.

8 MR. THOMPSON: Yes, sir.

9 MR. MOON: Name is Jay Moon, J-a-y M-o-o10 n. I'm the President and CEO of the Mississippi 

11 Manufacturers Association in Jackson, 

12 Mississippi.

13 Well, thank you and good morning. I 

14 appreciate the opportunity to make these comments 

15 on this proposed rule today. I have more 

16 detailed comments that I will submit in the 

17 formal record as a supplement to what I deliver 

18 this morning.

19 As mentioned, I'm the President and CEO 

20 of the Mississippi Manufacturers Association, 

21 which represents over 2,000 manufacturing 

22 companies and affiliated businesses in the State 

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1 of Mississippi. Among our members are a number 

2 of the significant generators and consumers of 

3 electric power within the state.

4 All of our members are concerned that 

5 EPA's proposed rule, which would institute a new 

6 regulatory framework on Mississippi that would 

7 transform how electricity is generated, 

8 distributed, transmitted, and used, could 

9 potentially eliminate the critical competitive 

10 advantage that affordable and reliable 

11 electricity provides to the American economy.

12 Although MMA will continue to review 

13 EPA's proposal and to submit additional comments, 

14 it is clear to us that the proposal will be 

15 disruptive to and is fundamentally incompatible 

16 with numerous practical and technical aspects of 

17 the electricity system in Mississippi and all 

18 other states.

19 It is evident that the proposal is based 

20 on a flawed interpretation of the Clean Air Act. 

21 We therefore urge EPA to withdraw the current 

22 proposal and substantially revise this rule.

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1 In the meantime, I want to highlight five 

2 issues that are representative of our more 

3 detailed objections to EPA's proposal.

4 One, electricity price increases and 

5 economic impacts. The rule presents a 

6 significant threat to American jobs and the 

7 economy by substantially increasing electricity 

8 prices. These increases will place a heavy 

9 burden on business in Mississippi and across the 

10 United States, for which affordable energy 

11 provides a critical operating advantage in 

12 competitive global markets.

13 Two, rule structure and scope. EPA has 

14 provided little or no information regarding what 

15 authority it's relying on to institute such an 

16 expansive regulatory regime and how it intends to 

17 proceed if it is not approved in individual 

18 states' implementation plans.

19 Three, technological achievability. EPA 

20 has asserted that each of the individual targets 

21 assigned to states under the proposal are based 

22 on reasonably achievable rather than maximum 

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1 performance levels.

2 MMA is concerned that, as with its 

3 proposed rule for new power plants, EPA is basing 

4 enormously impactful mandates on technological or 

5 technology assumptions that have yet to be 

6 demonstrated as achievable at a reasonable cost, 

7 and in some cases achievable at any cost.

8 Four, follow-on regulations. Since the 

9 agency is committed to a number of follow-on 

10 rules, MMA members will be impacted twice, both 

11 as electricity customers and also as industries 

12 next in line for subsequent rules that EPA has 

13 committed to pursuing.

14 The substance process and ultimate 

15 outcome of the initial proposed regulations on 

16 power plants are certain to influence the 

17 regulations that will be subsequently proposed.

18 Five, process and timelines. 

19 Stakeholders continue to struggle to interpret 

20 and react to the rule's more than 1,600 pages of 

21 highly technical materials that the agency has 

22 scheduled public hearings in only four locations. 

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1 It has also provided few, if any, opportunities 

2 for stakeholders to publicly ask the agency 

3 direct questions regarding the rule.

4 A regulation as complex and as far5 reaching as the one proposed must be prioritized 

6 at robust, inclusive rule-making process over 

7 meeting arbitrary and rushed deadlines. MMA 

8 recognizes that addressing each of these 

9 significant issues will require substantial time 

10 and effort of the EPA, states, and the 

11 stakeholders alike.

12 However, as a first step, we respectfully 

13 ask the EPA to take two critical actions to 

14 enhance the public involvement process associated 

15 with this rule. One, we request the EPA hold 

16 additional public hearings on the rule in order 

17 to enable a greater number of citizens and 

18 stakeholders representing a broader range of 

19 viewpoints and geographic locations to provide 

20 input on the rule.

21 Further, and perhaps more important, we 

22 ask that at least some component of these public 

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1 meetings be interactive so impacted stakeholders 

2 can ask EPA direct questions regarding the intent 

3 and implications of its proposed rule.

4 But we request the EPA extend the 

5 currently planned 120-day comment period by at 

6 least 60 days to ensure that affected 

7 stakeholders have sufficient time to assess the 

8 rule and consider feedback provided at the 

9 forthcoming public hearings.

10 Thank you again for the opportunity to 

11 provide these comments. We look forward to 

12 working cooperatively with EPA to ensure that the 

13 proposed regulation addresses these critical 

14 issues.

15 Thank you so much for the opportunity to 

16 be here.

17 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Moon. 

18 Thank you for your testimony.

19 Mr. Manning.

20 MR. MANNING: I'm Robert Manning on 

21 behalf of the Florida Electric Power Coordinating 

22 Group.

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1 Good morning. My name is Robert Manning. 

2 I'm an attorney with Hopping Green and Sams, an 

3 environmental law firm in Tallahassee, Florida.

4 MR. THOMPSON: I'm sorry, sir. Could you 

5 spell your name for the court reporter, for the 

6 record?

7 MR. MANNING: M-a-n-n-i-n-g.

8 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you.

9 MR. MANNING: And I serve as counsel to 

10 the Florida Electric Power Coordinating Group on 

11 air regulatory matters and providing comments 

12 today on their behalf.

13 The 29 members of the FCG generate nearly 

14 all of the power for Florida's nearly 20 million 

15 residents. The FCG will be submitting more 

16 extensive and detailed comments by the deadline.

17 As an initial matter, Florida utilities 

18 have made substantial progress over the last 

19 decade in reducing CO2. Specifically, we've 

20 reduced the pound-per-megawatt hour by nearly 20 

21 percent since 2005, the tons per year by nearly 

22 12 percent, and all the while increasing the 

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1 overall statewide generation by 12 percent.

2 The FCG is very concerned that EPA is not 

3 providing sufficient time to review and comment 

4 on its proposals, which are comprised of two 

5 major components -- one for existing units and 

6 one for reconstructed and modified units.

7 Although EPA is providing 120 days, the 

8 complexity of the proposal and the current lack 

9 of supporting documentation that EPA has provided 

10 results in the need for additional time in which 

11 to evaluate the proposals and develop meaningful 

12 comments.

13 Evaluation of the proposed emission rate 

14 goals for Florida and their building-block 

15 components requires extensive analysis of the 

16 state's generation and transmission systems, and 

17 their associated capabilities and limitations.

18 A thorough review of EPA's analysis 

19 requires months rather than weeks. Accordingly, 

20 we request that EPA provide an additional 90 days 

21 in which to evaluate and comment on these 

22 proposals.

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1 The FCG has numerous legal, regulatory,

2 and technical concerns regarding EPA's proposal. 

3 And I will highlight a few, particularly as they 

4 relate to Florida.

5 The proposed 111(d) proposal is complex, 

6 difficult to understand, difficult to analyze, 

7 and it will be difficult to implement if 

8 finalized in anything like its current form. In 

9 the proposal, EPA is asserting new, undetermined 

10 authority to dictate how generation is 

11 dispatched, the amount of renewable resources to 

12 be built, and demand-side management of 

13 electricity use.

14 These guidelines and the subsequent 

15 state-developed standards for stationary sources 

16 under Section 111 of the Clean Air Act should 

17 begin and end with the regulated source itself. 

18 An NSPS or existing source guideline must apply 

19 to individual sources, must be based on 

20 reductions that an individual source can achieve, 

21 and must be based on the use of a system that is 

22 incorporated into the design of the source.

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1 Of the four building blocks that EPA 

2 proposes as part of its system of an emission 

3 reduction, under its option 1 approach, only the 

4 first building block can be applied by individual 

5 sources. The other three measures are out of the 

6 control of any particular regulated source and 

7 are predicated on actions by others. This is 

8 inconsistent with EPA's obligations under the 

9 Clean Air Act.

10 Further, if a state does not submit an 

11 approvable plan, EPA has no authority to 

12 promulgate a federal plan that includes the 

13 measures that it is requiring of states. EPA 

14 cannot develop and impose a federally enforceable 

15 energy resource development and dispatch program 

16 upon a particular state or group of states.

17 The FCG is also very concerned with EPA's 

18 use of a 2012 baseline year. EPA proposes to 

19 require Florida utilities to reduce their average 

20 CO2 emission rate by an additional 38 percent 

21 from 2012 to 2030 and provides no consideration 

22 for the substantial reductions already achieved.

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1 EPA fails to consider this progress and 

2 instead is proposing additional reduction in 

3 emissions that likely cannot be achieved. In 

4 fact, the 2020-to-2029 ten-year average interim 

5 goal is at a level that requires emissions to 

6 decrease dramatically in only the next few years, 

7 perhaps making it more aggressive than the 2030 

8 goal.

9 Regarding the implementation, the 

10 flexibility EPA touts is an illusion. EPA set 

11 each state's goal assuming that each state 

12 completely adopts all four building blocks. In 

13 Florida, we're concerned that each building block 

14 alone is unachievable, meaning that there's no 

15 margin to make up under one building block the 

16 amount to which we may have fallen short on 

17 another. Absent this ability, Florida cannot 

18 meet EPA's goal.

19 Aside from the legal and regulatory 

20 issues associated with the building blocks, there 

21 are serious technical and practical issues as 

22 well. The 6 percent heat rate improvement is 

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1 unachievable. In order to produce electricity as 

2 efficiently, reliably, and cost-effectively as 

3 possible, utilities have already undertaken 

4 measures to optimize the efficiency.

5 I'll turn in this document.

6 MR. THOMPSON: Sure.

7 MR. MANNING: But in sum, Florida

8 utilities have substantially decreased CO2 

9 emissions over the last decade. EPA's current 

10 proposals to mandate further reductions are both 

11 unreasonable and unlawful.

12 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. 

13 MR. MANNING: Would you like me to hand 

14 this to your or give it to the desk?

15 MR. THOMPSON: Actually, submit it to the 

16 folks out front, formally.

17 MR. MANNING: Okay. 

18 MR. THOMPSON: Are there any questions 

19 for either of the gentlemen?

20 [No audible response.] 

21 MR. THOMPSON: There are no questions.

22 Well, gentlemen, thank you both very much 

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1 for your testimony today.

2 [Chorus of "Thank you."]

3 MR. THOMPSON: Absolutely. Thank you.

4 [Pause.] 

5 MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 

6 Becky Rafter and Chris Carnevale.

7 [Pause.] 

8 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning.

9 MS. RAFTER: Good morning, gentlemen. 

10 How are you?

11 MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us. 

12 Great, how are you this morning?

13 MS. RAFTER: I'm good, thanks.

14 MR. THOMPSON: Good.

15 MS. RAFTER: I am Becky, Becky Rafter, 

16 with the Georgia Women's Action for New 

17 Directions, Georgia WAND.

18 MR. THOMPSON: One moment, Becky.

19 Good morning, sir.

20 MR. CARNEVALE: Good morning.

21 MR. THOMPSON: And, Becky, while we get 

22 this squared away, I'd like for you to state and 

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1 spell your name for the court reporter. And then 

2 you can begin your testimony.

3 MS. RAFTER: Sure. It's B-e-c-k-y R-a-f 

4 as in Frank, t-e-r.

5 MR. THOMPSON: Please begin.

6 MS. RAFTER: I'm with Georgia Women's 

7 Action for New Directions. We're a statewide 

8 organization representing thousands of people 

9 across the state. And we also are a 501(c)(3) 

10 and 501(c)(4) organization.

11 I'm here mainly representing the people, 

12 our members, who are living downwind and 

13 downstream of nuclear power and nuclear weapons 

14 plants here in the Southeast, and also our 

15 concern about the plants that are being 

16 constructed currently in the Southeast, mainly 

17 Plant Vogtle and VC Summer, although some of my 

18 points have to do with Watts Bar.

19 I do, before I begin with my suggestions, 

20 want to offer kudos to the President and to the 

21 EPA for your leadership on addressing climate 

22 change. And I know a lot of expertise and hard 

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1 work have gone into this proposed ruling. And we 

2 are excited about it.

3 However, we do have some suggestions for 

4 ways that it could be improved, based on our 

5 perspective and the work that we're doing with 

6 the people we're working with.

7 And with that, some areas of the 

8 proposal, of course, like I just said, we think 

9 could be strengthened. I'm going to focus mainly 

10 on the section regarding nuclear power and how 

11 the proposed ruling seems to demonstrate that 

12 nuclear power is an essential element of our 

13 grid. And we'd like to propose that that is 

14 dangerous and not in the interests of the EPA or 

15 the people that we are all representing.

16 First, it, of course, by supporting 

17 existing -- by wanting to expand the nuclear 

18 industry by wanting to subsidize existing 

19 reactors and also preserve reactors that are 

20 going to be -- retrofit the reactors that are 

21 going to be nearing their life cycles, which a 

22 lot of them are going to be nearing the end of 

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1 their life cycle in the coming years, not to 

2 mention the several before 2020.

3 We all know that with the bathtub effect, 

4 the most dangerous times of nuclear reactors are 

5 at the beginning of their life cycle and the end 

6 of their life cycle, when they're most likely to 

7 have a meltdown. And this is concerning to the 

8 people that live not only within the 10- and 15-

9 mile radius of these sites, but also the water 

10 that is providing cooling for those sites affects 

11 millions of people downwind and downstream and 

12 along the rivers.

13 Also, it undermines the growth of the 

14 renewable energy sector, including solar and wind 

15 energy. And also, if nuclear is a part of state 

16 cap-and-trade programs, then being able to sort 

17 of trade those with coal-fired plants would also 

18 undermine the imminent closure of coal-fired 

19 plants.

20 In regards to addressing climate change, 

21 what we believe is that while the proposed ruling 

22 would address climate change, it also doesn't 

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1 take into consideration the effect of climate 

2 change on the nuclear reactors themselves. And 

3 so, that's -- we think is a big miss. And one of 

4 the main -- of course, one of the main issues 

5 there is water.

6 And so, if water is used to cool the 

7 reactors, and you've got warming waters, warming 

8 rivers, mainly, for our concerns around the Plant 

9 Vogtle, specifically, and the Savannah River is 

10 getting warmer.

11 And it's also recently been moved from 

12 the fourth most polluted river to the third most 

13 polluted river in the country. And so you have a 

14 river that's full of heavy metals and other 

15 pollutants that's going into the reactors and is 

16 -- has been found to have a strain on the intake 

17 valves in Plant Vogtle.

18 Is that me, that yellow thing?

19 MR. THOMPSON: Yeah, yeah. That's you.

20 MS. RAFTER: Well, you're going to have 

21 to just bear with me.

22 So, water is an issue. And also the 

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1 water that's contaminated with radiological 

2 contaminants from nuclear sites affects not only 

3 the drinking water and the ecosystem, but also 

4 the agriculture.

5 And so, with Plant Vogtle coming online, 

6 if they have -- if units 3 and 4 come online, 

7 we've already taken 75 million gallons per day of 

8 water. If we end up bringing in those two new 

9 units online, we're taking in 125 million gallons 

10 per day. Some of that is returned to the river, 

11 albeit thermonuclearly hot.

12 But what we're looking at is a water 

13 dictatorship. And two-thirds of the water in 

14 that area are going to be owned by the utility 

15 company. And so, if we don't have farmers being 

16 able to use irrigation for their crops, then 

17 that's going to cause a lot of local issues.

18 Okay. So, now it's red.

19 [Laughter.]

20 MR. THOMPSON: It will beep when your 

21 time is up. Well, it just did.

22 [Laughter.]

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1 MS. RAFTER: Anyway, so that's all I've 

2 got to say, plus a lot more. And I'm glad that 

3 you all took the time to listen to my testimony 

4 today.

5 MR. THOMPSON: And you can submit -- I 

6 was about to say you can submit those in writing. 

7 Anything that you didn't get to, please submit 

8 out front before you leave.

9 MS. RAFTER: All right. Thank you for 

10 listening.

11 MR. THOMPSON: You're welcome.

12 All right. Mr. Carnevale.

13 MR. CARNEVALE: Thank you. Good morning. 

14 My name is Chris Carnevale. That's C-h-r-i-s C15 a-r-n-e-v-a-l-e.

16 And I work for the Southern Alliance for 

17 Clean Energy. I'm from Charleston, South 

18 Carolina. And I'm here today speaking in support 

19 of placing limits on carbon pollution from power 

20 plants in order to protect treasured places like 

21 Charleston and other coastal communities in the 

22 Southeast.

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1 Charleston is a place of significant 

2 cultural and historical heritage. But the 

3 impacts of climate change such as sea level rise 

4 and ocean acidification threaten our way of life 

5 and our connection to past generations.

6 Charleston has held the designation of 

7 the best city to visit in the U.S. by both Conde 

8 Nast and Travel and Leisure magazines for the 

9 last several years. And if you have visited 

10 Charleston, you know why. You know that if the 

11 walls of the buildings could speak, they could 

12 tell you stories spanning hundreds of years.

13 The walls of the Powder Magazine on 

14 Cumberland Street would tell you about the 

15 original fortification of Charles Town and 

16 battles between the South Carolinian Colonists 

17 and Native Americans, French, and Spanish, and 

18 later fighting a war for independence.

19 Those of the grand mansions south of 

20 Broad Street would speak of the immense wealth 

21 generated by King Cotton, while the Emanuel AME 

22 Church on Calhoun Street would speak about the 

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1 slave rebellion plotted by one of the church's 

2 founders.

3 Fort Sumter's ramparts would talk about 

4 the first shots of the Civil War, fired right 

5 there in the Charleston Harbor, while the County 

6 Courthouse would tell the story of hosting the 

7 first court case to desegregate public schools in 

8 America.

9 Yet these monuments which serve as a 

10 tangible link to our past are immensely 

11 vulnerable to flooding from sea level rise. All 

12 of these places are at less than 10 feet above 

13 sea level rise, and some are as low as 3.

14 Meanwhile, the National Oceanic and 

15 Atmospheric Administration projects as much as 

16 6.6 feet of global sea level rise over the course 

17 of this century alone. Not only would this mean 

18 losing many national treasures like these, but it 

19 would also mean losing much of the backbone of 

20 Charleston's current economy.

21 Visitors come here to participate in our 

22 rich history, whether by visiting national 

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1 historic monuments or simply taking in the 

2 ambiance while strolling down our cobblestone 

3 streets.

4 But it's not just the built environment 

5 that gives Charleston its quintessentially 

6 Southern charm and deep sense of history. 

7 Charleston would not be complete without its 

8 natural beauty as well. Southern live oaks 

9 draped in Spanish moss are an icon of the South 

10 and are abundant here, lining the driveways of 

11 historic plantations and Sea Island boulevards. 

12 Some were here well before Europeans even 

13 arrived.

14 The angel oak on John's Island, for

15 example, is thought to be as old as 1,500 years. 

16 And not only is it supposed to have hosted 

17 ceremonies for Creek Indian tribes, but it's also 

18 served as a place of refuge and recreation for 

19 families for generations.

20 Yet these live oaks may become threatened 

21 as saltwater encroaches upon their root zones due 

22 to sea level rise, particularly alongside tidal 

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1 sources of water such as those so abundant in the 

2 low country.

3 Furthermore, saltwater marshes are home 

4 to all sorts of valuable aquatic creatures, 

5 including those that have formed the basis of the 

6 low country's food traditions for many, many 

7 years -- shrimp and grits, she-crab soup, and 

8 oysters, to name a few.

9 Yet these creatures are in peril from the 

10 impacts of climate change. Saltwater intrusion, 

11 combined with drought, has raised salinity levels 

12 in our marshes enough to begin killing our marsh 

13 grasses, which provide necessary habitat for many 

14 of our heritage sea food, while ocean 

15 acidification from excess atmospheric carbon 

16 compounds the risk.

17 As you can gather from what I'm saying, 

18 Charleston is a place overflowing with rich 

19 history and culture rooted in the built 

20 environment, natural landscape, and culinary 

21 traditions. Yet these things, which serve as 

22 critical links to our past, for our enjoyment in 

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1 the present, and means of prosperity in the 

2 future, are threatened by carbon-fueled climate 

3 change.

4 Charleston and South Carolina are not 

5 alone in facing these threats. Many coastal 

6 cities in the Southeast, such as Wilmington, 

7 Savannah, Miami, and Tampa, have completely 

8 unique cultural and environmental assets that 

9 have persisted for centuries, yet are now 

10 jeopardized by catastrophic impacts from climate 

11 change.

12 I personally would like to continue to 

13 enjoy these treasures for the rest of my life, 

14 and I'd like for future generations to enjoy them 

15 as much as our generation has. It's for this 

16 reason that I wish to express great support for 

17 limiting carbon pollution from power plants.

18 Thank you.

19 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for your 

20 testimony.

21 Are there questions?

22 [No audible response.] 

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1 MR. HUTSON: I just agree with him, 

2 everything he said about Charleston.

3 [Laughter.]

4 MR. CARNEVALE: You've visited, haven't 

5 you?

6 MR. HUTSON: It's a great place, yeah.

7 [Laughter.]

8 MR. THOMPSON: Well, thank you both for 

9 your testimony today.

10 MR. CARNEVALE: Thank you.

11 MS. RAFTER: Thank you.

12 MR. THOMPSON: You're welcome.

13 [Pause.]

14 MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are Jay 

15 Hakes and Charles B. Jones, III.

16 Good morning, gentlemen.

17 [Chorus of "Good morning."] 

18 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for joining us 

19 today.

20 I'd like to begin with Mr. Hakes. Just 

21 state and spell your name for the court reporter, 

22 and then begin testimony, sir.

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1 MR. HAKES: My name is Jay Hakes, J-a-y 

2 H-a-k-e-s.

3 I am the former Energy Director of the 

4 State of Florida, former Administrator of the 

5 U.S. Energy Information Administration. I have 

6 written a book and numerous articles on U.S. 

7 energy policy. And I have testified before 

8 Congress 26 times on energy issues, including the 

9 impacts of climate policy on the economy and 

10 electric rates.

11 To start, I would like to say that we're 

12 not rushing into this issue, as some have 

13 asserted.

14 The National Academy of Sciences reached 

15 its first consensus study in the late 1970s that 

16 human activities were causing the rise in surface 

17 temperatures around the world, the melting of 

18 polar ice caps, and dehydration of soils in 

19 regions around the world. And yet, here we are 

20 35 years later, still dumping carbon dioxide into 

21 the atmosphere without regulation.

22 The Supreme Court of the United States, 

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1 in the Massachusetts vs. EPA case of 2007 

2 mandated the agency to deal with climate change 

3 under the 1970 Clean Air Act Amendment. Again, 

4 some are arguing that the agency has exceeded its 

5 authority. Its authority in this area is 

6 exceedingly clear. The court has not waffled on 

7 this.

8 Second, the rules, in my opinion, have 

9 been very carefully crafted in an attempt to 

10 achieve significant reductions in carbon dioxide 

11 emissions at the least cost possible. EPA has 

12 done this by establishing the 2005 base line for 

13 the overall goal at the time when carbon 

14 emissions peaked. It allows a very long 

15 implementation period, and it allows great 

16 flexibility for selecting the best options.

17 In my opinion, we need efficiency at coal 

18 plants. We need switching to natural gas. We 

19 need energy efficiency, and in my opinion, we 

20 will also need the nuclear option.

21 Third, the timing on this rule is 

22 fortuitous. Natural gas supplies are ample and 

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1 cheap. Having been involved in the energy 

2 production business for a long part of my life, I 

3 feel that that is going to continue for the 

4 foreseeable future, making compliance with this 

5 rule relatively easy, or easier than we would 

6 have thought a few years ago.

7 I would also urge people to visit the 

8 Home Depot, an Atlanta corporation, and look when 

9 you walk in at the LED lights, which are now 

10 about half of what they cost a year ago. And 

11 notice that dishwashers and clothes driers now 

12 have direct-drive motors, as do some of the 

13 ceiling fans options. These direct-drive motors, 

14 in many cases, are producing efficiency gains of 

15 70 percent.

16 I feel that some of this new technology, 

17 because it's happening so rapidly, is not 

18 reflected in the EPA analysis. And the 

19 government projections with which I'm familiar 

20 with -- I used to do them -- do have several 

21 flaws, one of which is they don't incorporate 

22 federal rulemaking on appliance efficiency beyond 

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1 scheduled rules. These rules will undoubtedly 

2 occur, and they're going to make the compliance 

3 on this easier than a lot of people think.

4 I would urge EPA not to abandon the 1.5 

5 per annum goal for efficiency. I think that is a 

6 very achievable goal. I wrote about auto 

7 efficiency standards before they were adopted, 

8 and urged a goal that they pretty well adopted. 

9 And it's been pretty easy for the market to 

10 accommodate that.

11 Fourth, I have some advice on state 

12 plans. I think this will be a learning 

13 experience for all concerned. The State of 

14 Georgia has had problems under the IRP. It has 

15 quite anemic appliance efficiency programs. On 

16 the other hand, this state does have pretty good 

17 building codes, and thermal efficiency programs 

18 run by Georgia Power offer good value for dollar.

19 I think that the Federal Government can 

20 help by continuing DOE rulemaking on appliances 

21 and lighting. And I do think that EPA needs to 

22 take a look at the Energy Star program. The 

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1 Energy Star program is used in Georgia as sort of 

2 the label that triggers the incentive program. 

3 The Energy Star program is not always up to date. 

4 There need to be more resources devoted to that. 

5 And I think all sides of the argument should 

6 agree.

7 I'd like to express my disappointment 

8 with some of the misinformation about this rule 

9 being spread, much of it by Georgia public 

10 officials. One high-ranking energy official in 

11 the state made the claim that coal not consumed 

12 in the United States is simply exported and used 

13 elsewhere.

14 It would have taken about 30 seconds of 

15 fact-checking to determine that that's not true. 

16 And yet I'm sure it will continue to be repeated 

17 over and over again in the coming years. 

18 Unfortunately, this error is not an isolated 

19 case, and I call on all Georgia officials to be 

20 more accurate in their comments about this rule.

21 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Hakes. 

22 Thank you for your testimony.

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1 Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: Yeah, good morning. My name 

3 is Charles Jones. C-h-a-r-l-e-s J-o-n-e-s. I go 

4 by "Clay." That's C-l-a-y.

5 I'm with the Georgia Association of 

6 Manufacturers. I'm the Vice President and 

7 General Counsel. Thank you for the opportunity 

8 to speak this morning.

9 We represent the interests of Georgia 

10 manufacturers in legislative and regulatory 

11 matters. Our association was founded in 1900 

12 with roots in the textile industry.

13 Now we serve as the voice of all 

14 manufacturing industries in our state, with 

15 members from the textile and carbon industry, but

16 also in other industries such as agricultural 

17 equipment, steel and other metals, packaging 

18 supplies, pharmaceuticals, medical sutures, geo19 synthetics, refrigeration, and other industrial 

20 equipment, and a host of other industries.

21 I want to begin by thanking the EPA for 

22 providing this opportunity to share our concerns. 

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1 I also want to emphasize the importance of 

2 environmental stewardship to our membership.

3 We have a very active environmental 

4 quality committee with volunteers from our member 

5 companies, who meet regularly to discuss and 

6 share information about the latest in 

7 environmental compliance, environmental 

8 excellence.

9 Many of our companies are nationally 

10 recognized and awarded for their sustainability 

11 efforts, including reducing energy usage, 

12 limiting their water consumption, reducing 

13 landfill usage, and other pro-environmental 

14 achievements. We support a clean environment and 

15 responsible policies that promote environmental 

16 protection and industry growth.

17 The proposed rule, however, presents a 

18 number of concerns for manufacturers, and really 

19 for all consumers of electricity. Manufacturers 

20 in particular tend to be higher energy users. 

21 Energy costs are a substantial cost for 

22 manufacturers, nearing and sometimes even 

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1 surpassing labor costs.

2 Energy costs are often one of the 

3 determining factors in where a manufacturer 

4 locates, whether it expands, and whether it 

5 continues operations at all in some instances.

6 One of the significant factors that has 

7 led to the return of manufacturing investment to 

8 our country, or re-shoring as people call it, has 

9 been our relatively lower energy costs in this 

10 country.

11 The importance of energy costs to 

12 manufacturing in the retention of those jobs 

13 cannot be overstated. So we urge you to be 

14 especially careful not to adopt rules that impose 

15 unreasonable cost burdens on utilities. 

16 Ultimately, we all know who pays the price for 

17 that. It will be the consumer, even though the 

18 initial impact will be felt by those utilities.

19 And our association is very involved in 

20 the ratemaking process here in Georgia. So I can 

21 tell you that that is absolutely the truth.

22 Given the shortness of time, I want to 

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1 focus just on two areas of concern. The first is 

2 that we're concerned that the EPA's targeted 

3 reduction for Georgia, a 48 percent reduction in 

4 CO2 emissions from 2012 to 2030, could force 

5 Georgia's electric utilities to make a series of 

6 uneconomic choices regarding which resources to 

7 construct and to dispatch.

8 Georgia and its rate-paying consumers 

9 have benefited from a diverse portfolio of 

10 generation resources and a dispatch model that 

11 utilizes the lowest-cost resource available. 

12 Indeed, Georgia has already significantly reduced 

13 its reliance in the last several years on coal, 

14 and subsequently, its CO2 emissions.

15 But the rule could force utilities to 

16 artificially increase the amount of natural gas 

17 called upon, which could result in an over18 reliance on a single fuel, less reliability, and 

19 higher prices for all consumers.

20 The second issue we have a concern with, 

21 of the ones I'm going to discuss today, is the 

22 treatment of Plant Vogtle and how it's 

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1 considered. As you know, and from previous 

2 speakers, Plant Vogtle is undergoing the 

3 construction of two new nuclear reactors, units 3 

4 and 4.

5 Georgia rate-payers, including 

6 manufacturers, have been paying the financing 

7 costs already for this construction, which is, I 

8 think, due now to come online in 2017 and 2018. 

9 And they will be responsible for the substantial 

10 end-service cost once those units become 

11 operational.

12 Vogtle 3 and 4 is a major investment in 

13 Georgia's future. And it will contribute to 

14 lower CO2 emissions. However, as we understand 

15 the rule, it penalizes Georgia for that decision 

16 by using the fact that Vogtle 3 and 4 will lower 

17 CO2 emissions to justify a higher emissions 

18 reduction target.

19 This essentially gives Georgia no credit 

20 for the construction of Vogtle 3 and 4 when it 

21 comes to CO2 emissions, and we'd ask you to be 

22 very careful about that.

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1 A healthy manufacturing base creates 

2 wealth, jobs, and opportunities. Manufacturing 

3 jobs pay higher wages and provide better benefits 

4 than the average job. And manufacturing produces 

5 a significant multiplier effect not seen in most 

6 other sectors of the economy, resulting in 

7 additional supporting industries and supporting 

8 service economy jobs.

9 So we ask you to please consider the 

10 importance of this economic recovery we're in, 

11 the re-shoring of manufacturing to our nation, 

12 and to remember that the costs imposed by this 

13 rule will ultimately fall on the backs on 

14 consumers, including on industries that are faced

15 with increasing costs and intense international 

16 competition.

17 So we urge you to be careful in your 

18 adoption of the rule and reject any unreasonable 

19 cost that would threaten the health of our 

20 manufacturing base.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

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1 Are there any questions for Mr. Hakes and 

2 Mr. Jones?

3 [No audible response.] 

4 MR. THOMPSON: And are you gentlemen 

5 planning to submit written comments as well?

6 MR. HAKES: I will also put more expanded 

7 comments, yes.

8 MR. JONES: In October, yes.

9 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you very much.

10 MR. JONES: Thank you. Thank you for the 

11 opportunity.

12 MR. THOMPSON: Absolutely.

13 [Pause.]

14 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Our next speakers 

15 are Brion Fitzpatrick and Martin McConaughy.

16 [Pause.]

17 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen. 

18 Thanks for joining us.

19 I'd like to start with Mr. Fitzpatrick. 

20 If you could state and spell your name for the 

21 court reporter, and then begin testimony.

22 MR. FITZPATRICK: Yes. Hello. My name 

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1 is Brion Fitzpatrick. That name is spelled like, 

2 Brian, B-r-i-o-n. Last name Fitzpatrick, F-i-t3 z-p-a-t-r-i-c-k.

4 I'm here today to represent the Georgia 

5 Solar Energy Association, which I refer to as 

6 Georgia Solar. And I'm Vice Chairman of Georgia 

7 Solar.

8 I also work as the Director of Business 

9 Development for Inman Solar, a Georgia-based 

10 solar project development and installation 

11 company, a position I have held for six years.

12 Georgia has made great strides over the 

13 past two years in the development of its solar 

14 resources. In 2012, the state had less than 20 

15 megawatts of solar energy in production. And 

16 today, Georgia's producing more than 100 

17 megawatts of solar energy, a number that is 

18 growing every day.

19 With the visionary encouragement of the 

20 Georgia Public Service Commission, and Georgia 

21 Power's Advance Solar Initiative, the ASI, in 

22 cooperation with Georgia's solar industry 

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1 professionals, this rapid deployment of solar 

2 energy infrastructure has been possible without 

3 any upward pressure on rates.

4 The best news of all is that Georgia's 

5 vast potential for solar energy production, rated 

6 among the nation's best by the National Renewable 

7 Energy Laboratory, remains largely untapped.

8 Hundreds of firms throughout the state 

9 are engaged in the solar energy market, and that 

10 number doesn't count the many professionals whose 

11 skills are important to successful solar 

12 development. And these professionals are 

13 creating long-term investment and improving 

14 productivity throughout the state.

15 Since the inception of the Georgia 

16 Power's ASI program, the largest voluntary 

17 program in the nation, Georgia is on track to add 

18 735 megawatts of solar generation within a 36-

19 month period. Since it was approved in November 

20 of 2012 and then launched in 2013, the Georgia 

21 Power ASI has prompted a significant increase in 

22 the number of solar jobs and firms involved in 

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1 this market sector.

2 Most of those professionals belong to our 

3 organization, Georgia Solar, which strives to 

4 educate Georgia homeowners, policy makers, and 

5 the business community on the many benefits of 

6 solar energy.

7 Our success is increasingly apparent as 

8 our solar portfolio grows. Although most solar 

9 installations have previously been located in 

10 Georgia's more urban areas, like Atlanta, 

11 Savannah, Macon, and Augusta, the Georgia Power 

12 ASI program is now building significant economic 

13 potential in the state's more rural areas, which 

14 have been hungry for this kind of local 

15 investment and jobs solar projects create.

16 This year the ASI programs seek more than 

17 1,200 applications, from which fewer than 200 

18 projects were selected. Maps produced by local 

19 solar energy engineers show many available sites 

20 for large-scale solar development throughout the 

21 state. We are also seeing an uptake of solar 

22 energy projects and resources from Georgia's 41 

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1 electric membership cooperatives and the 49 

2 municipal electric authorities of Georgia, which 

3 serve the state's rural communities.

4 Georgia's home to many solar companies, 

5 most of them locally established, that 

6 manufacture solar equipment; design, locate, and 

7 develop projects; install, maintain solar 

8 generation sites; and invest in innovative solar 

9 research and development.

10 We are prepared to meet the demands of 

11 the changing energy portfolio with an 

12 experienced, trained, and ready workforce. 

13 Whatever opportunities occur in our market for 

14 increased renewable energy resources, we have the 

15 skills, the people, and the supply chain to meet 

16 it.

17 At Georgia Solar, we know and are working 

18 hard to help the public understand that solar 

19 energy is not a partisan issue. Consistently 

20 improving technology and dramatically declining 

21 prices in the elements of solar infrastructure 

22 have combined to make solar energy a viable, 

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1 cost-effective resource at every economic level.

2 According to the Georgia Solar Industries 

3 Association, the price of solar has fallen 60 

4 percent in the last three years. Solar cost5 competitiveness with the traditional generation 

6 resource was officially recognized by Georgia 

7 Power and the Georgia Public Service Commission 

8 in their 2013 IRP, internal resource planning 

9 process.

10 From 50 megawatt solar farms to 

11 residential rooftops, solar energy is becoming a 

12 practical part of Georgia's energy portfolio, and 

13 solar energy can offer the state homeowner 

14 savings on their utility bills, giving business 

15 owners more budget flexibility with lower energy 

16 costs, improve our domestic energy security, and 

17 ease expensive heat demand on our energy grid.

18 By improving policies at the state level 

19 that reflect current market practices and the 

20 benefits solar energy contributes to the grid, 

21 even more savings can be produced.

22 According to a study by the Solar 

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1 Foundation, Georgia experienced the highest 

2 growth rate in the nation for solar jobs between 

3 2012 and 2013, an astonishing 225 percent. This 

4 shows how quickly we can deploy our solar 

5 industry to meet the state's needs for diverse 

6 energy portfolio. Solar energy can help the 

7 state deploy new, renewable energy resources 

8 cost-effectively, while improving Georgia's 

9 economic assets, again with no upward pressure on 

10 utility rates.

11 Increasing solar energy also offers 

12 Georgia the added benefit of producing water 

13 demand for energy production, a significant and 

14 growing concern in our states for our state 

15 leaders. Georgia has been in negotiation with 

16 its neighboring states for more than two decades 

17 over water withdrawals from our shared surface 

18 water resources.

19 Roughly half of those withdrawals go to 

20 produce electricity. By shifting some of that 

21 energy load to solar PV, which uses no water to 

22 generate, we can ease that demand without 

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1 sacrificing our economic growth potential.

2 I will leave it to the EPA and other 

3 policymakers to determine the right goals for 

4 Georgia in this dialog over air quality and 

5 energy production. But on behalf of more than 

6 1,000 solar energy professionals who live and 

7 work in Georgia, I am here to reassure you that 

8 Georgia is ready to deploy its solar energy 

9 resources. Solar is clean, carefully regulated, 

10 cost-effective, quickly deployed, and a proven 

11 resource.

12 Thank you for the opportunity to speak on 

13 behalf of the Solar Energy Association, and on 

14 behalf of the professionals and consumers who 

15 stand to benefit from solar in our state.

16 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 

17 Fitzpatrick. Thank you for your testimony.

18 MR. FITZPATRICK: Thank you.

19 MR. THOMPSON: Mr. McConaughy.

20 MR. McCONAUGHY: My name is Martin 

21 McConaughy. That's M-a-r-t-i-n M-c-C-o-n-a-u-g22 h-y.

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1 Thank you for having me here. I'm really 

2 exited about this. This is really such a great 

3 time for us in this country. But here's a 

4 message to all the Georgia Powers, Duke Energy, 

5 Con Edison, Florida Progress -- we love your 

6 product. But the world is literally sick from 

7 over a century of pollution from the way you 

8 produce this electricity.

9 Some ask the question, how much is this 

10 going to cost each consumer to clean up this 

11 mess? You know, the real question should be, 

12 what should it cost if we don't come clean? 

13 During yesterday's testimony, a lobbyist for the 

14 train industry claimed thousands of jobs will be 

15 lost if we curtail coal burning. I suppose we're 

16 supposed to haul this poisoned coal all over the 

17 place just to keep jobs? I don't think so.

18 In 15 years, all manufactured cars will 

19 be electric. The landscape of the auto industry 

20 will look totally different. Things change. 

21 Things progress. And they get better if we let 

22 them. There's no valid arguments in my mind for 

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1 continuing the way that we've been. 

2 The EPA ruling is totally the right 

3 direction we need to be going. It is a well4 thought-out program. In my mind, from what I 

5 know, it's just like these people put a lot of 

6 time into it and said, you know, "Let's do this 

7 piece by piece, state by state. Let people make 

8 decisions." It's a fabulous beginning to this 

9 program. I think you need to stick to it.

10 Although the results aren't necessarily 

11 well defined, states are given flexibility to 

12 reach these goals in plenty of time. With 

13 cooperation, I feel we can achieve and surpass 

14 all of these expectations.

15 And I really do think that. I think what 

16 you've got going here, what you've started can 

17 really snowball into phenomenal growth in 

18 limiting this carbon thing. And, you know, I 

19 just think it's going to go way beyond if you 

20 stick to what you've got going.

21 But the key here is cooperation. We have 

22 some citizens who believe that we need a choice 

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1 in how electricity is produced. Not much of an 

2 argument, seeing as you have a choice in 

3 electricity you consume. But in general, unless 

4 you go to the renewables, the electric companies 

5 choose how they produce.

6 We are at a point now where alternative 

7 methods are finding a profitable place in the 

8 electric production scheme. And things are 

9 changing, and a lot of money is to be made.

10 Yet instead of using their wealth and 

11 influence from years of fossil fuel extraction to 

12 buy into this future, it appears to me that many 

13 are fighting this, and they're going to fight it 

14 with these frivolous and nonsense lawsuits, in 

15 their TV advertising, using mothers as 

16 spokespersons rather than come out and promote 

17 this essential, timely, clear approach to --

18 cleaner approach to electric generation.

19 To me, using these maternal spokespeople 

20 is like using Thomas the Train to teach kids how 

21 to smoke. My guess is that here in Georgia, that 

22 if the rate structure is changed to reward 

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1 efficiency and productivity, instead of rewarding 

2 cost overruns and limiting competition, we would 

3 have a Georgia Power and other aggressively 

4 seeking, profitable energy, instead of business 

5 as usual.

6 I urge the EPA to listen passionately, to 

7 stick to the numbers and direction of this ruling 

8 will take us. I will say that I think detractors 

9 are mostly telling worn-out talking points, just 

10 using -- to try to get a rise out of what has 

11 become a cult of naysayers.

12 This country has a history of leading 

13 with bold moves such as this. It's time once 

14 again to take this announcement that we're going 

15 to clean things up and make it a reality.

16 I think in this hearing you can see from 

17 -- I've been here yesterday and today. There's 

18 an overwhelming number of people who are pushing 

19 for you to do what you're mandated to do. And I 

20 think the country is ready for big things. We 

21 always have wanted to do big things. This could 

22 be the biggest thing in a long time. And it 

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1 could be just the beginning.

2 It's time for us to grab the power of the 

3 future and as a result lead better and healthier 

4 lives.

5 Thank you.

6 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. McConaughy.

7 Are there any questions?

8 MR. WORLEY: I have one question of Mr. 

9 Fitzpatrick.

10 MR. THOMPSON: Absolutely.

11 MR. WORLEY: You mentioned a couple of 

12 statistics regarding the -- let's see; let me 

13 find it -- the Georgia Power ASI program.

14 MR. FITZPATRICK: Yes.

15 MR. WORLEY: And you gave a number that 

16 had applied for the program, and then fewer than 

17 200 were selected.

18 MR. FITZPATRICK: Correct.

19 MR. WORLEY: Was there a cap placed on 

20 how many people or how many programs could be 

21 selected?

22 MR. FITZPATRICK: Yes. Yes. There is a 

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1 cap placed on the amount of megawatt capacity 

2 that was available for the program.

3 MR. WORLEY: Okay. 

4 MR. FITZPATRICK: And the number of 

5 projects that got in fell into that cap. And 

6 then that's what restricted it was the megawatt 

7 cap on energy capacity.

8 MR. WORLEY: Okay. Thank you.

9 MR. HUTSON: And my question was for Mr. 

10 McConaughy. You're here as a private citizen, or 

11 are you representing --

12 MR. McCONAUGHY: I am a private citizen. 

13 I'm a retired high school math teacher. I am 

14 affiliated with the Sierra Club. And, you know, 

15 I'm -- you know, I'm affiliated with all the kids 

16 I taught and all my grandchildren and everything 

17 else.

18 MR. HUTSON: Okay. Thank you.

19 MR. THOMPSON: Well, gentlemen, thank you 

20 both for your testimony. Yes, please submit it 

21 out front for the record. Thank you very much.

22 [Chorus of "Thank you."] 

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1 MR. THOMPSON: Absolutely. Yes, if 

2 you'll submit it out front, at the table out 

3 front, for the record. Thank you very much.

4 [Pause.]

5 MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 

6 Stephen Wingeier and James Carlson.

7 [Pause.] 

8 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning.

9 MR. WINGEIER: Excellent job pronouncing 

10 my name, by the way.

11 MR. THOMPSON: I'm getting better. Thank 

12 you.

13 [Laughter.]

14 MR. THOMPSON: Gentlemen, thank you both 

15 for joining us.

16 And, Mr. Wingeier, we'll start with you. 

17 If you state your name and spell it for the court 

18 reporter, and then you can begin your testimony.

19 MR. WINGEIER: Okay. 

20 MR. THOMPSON: All right.

21 MR. WINGEIER: Stephen Wingeier, S-t-e-p22 h-e-n W-i-n-g-e-i-e-r.

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1 And I'm a board member of Nuclear Watch 

2 South and the Lake Claire Community Land Trust. 

3 I'm not here representing either of those.

4 I support this new rule as an imperfect, 

5 but necessary step toward reducing the impacts of 

6 climate change. These comments are directed at 

7 those who deny the necessity of this step.

8 A great man once said, "All you need is 

9 love." And a great woman once said, "What's love 

10 got to do with it?" Simple. Each one of us in 

11 this room will someday have no choice but to look 

12 a child or a younger person whom we love in the 

13 eye and answer the question, "What did you do to 

14 help stop, slow down, or turn around the crisis 

15 of climate change?"

16 You see, today we have the luxury of 

17 pretending this crisis is not happening or it is 

18 not our fault. Or it can be indefinitely 

19 postponed. Or it is just not as important as 

20 getting to Hawaii or road-tripping to the beach.

21 But if even the mildest predictions of 

22 climate scientists come true, our children will 

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1 inherit a world that is substantially different 

2 from the one our parents left to us -- more 

3 dangerous, less abundant. And we are going to 

4 have some tough explaining to do.

5 I am no scientist. But I respect 

6 scientists. I understand the rigor and care 

7 behind the scientific method, and I know how to 

8 weigh their conclusions. First, how many other 

9 scientists have arrived at the same conclusion? 

10 We all know that only a tiny splinter of the 

11 scientific community disputes the reality of 

12 human-caused climate change.

13 Secondly, who funded their research? In 

14 case after case, it turns out that most of the 

15 studies disputing human-caused climate change are 

16 funded by the fossil fuel industry.

17 But scientists who earn their salaries 

18 this way have children, too. And it is time for 

19 them to decide whether they love their children 

20 more than they love their salaries. Clean energy 

21 has a job for each of them.

22 I understand that the livelihoods of 

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1 thousands of people currently depend on coal and 

2 oil and natural gas. But yesterday, across the 

3 street from this building, I heard an ex-coal

4 miner speak, a fourth-generation coal miner who 

5 realized one day that he was not, in fact, 

6 creating a better life for his kids, as he had 

7 thought, but a far worse one.

8 And for those of you in this room who are 

9 being paid by your employers to testify how 

10 important your job is for you, it is time for you 

11 too to decide whether you love your children more 

12 than you love your job. Clean energy has a job 

13 for you, too.

14 And you corporate executives of the 

15 utility companies, who may believe that your 

16 wealth and power insulate you from the 

17 consequences of burning carbon, if you love your 

18 children or any younger person, you are wrong. I 

19 suggest you listen in on an Alcoholics or 

20 Narcotics Anonymous meeting and learn just how 

21 insidious the whisper of an addiction can be.

22 When nothing is left of the forests of 

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1 Alberta but a giant toxic waste pit, and the 

2 Appalachian Mountains are reduced to a level 

3 field of lifeless rubble, when the groundwater of 

4 this nation has been poisoned by fracking 

5 chemicals from sea to shining sea, you'll be 

6 still seeking out yet more destructive ways to 

7 satisfy the itch for carbon. And at some point, 

8 the carbon will run out anyway.

9 Now is the time to shift, while we still 

10 have a planet worth inheriting. Clean energy 

11 needs utility executives, too.

12 You see, we have reached the point where 

13 we all must decide exactly how much we love our 

14 children, how important it is for them to inherit 

15 a world where they can breathe clean air, where 

16 they have drinkable water and plenty to eat, 

17 where they are not forced to flee their homes 

18 because of human-caused drought or wildfire or 

19 flood or hurricane or tornado.

20 If we do not wake up in time, if we do 

21 not turn around this runaway train to worldwide 

22 disaster, our children will pay. And we will 

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1 have to look them in the eye and explain what 

2 exactly was more important to us than their 

3 future.

4 Deniers of human-caused climate change 

5 are gambling. The stakes are high. The money is 

6 good. But the odds are against you. Only love 

7 can save you now.

8 Thank you.

9 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Wingeier.

10 Mr. Carlson.

11 MR. CARLSON: James Carlson, J-a-m-e-s C12 a-r-l-s-o-n.

13 My name is James Carlson. I represent 

14 the Alabama Department of Environmental 

15 Management. The department appreciates the 

16 opportunity to comment at today's proceedings.

17 The department has three broad comments 

18 on EPA's proposal. One, EPA's proposed rules to 

19 regulate greenhouse emissions are tantamount to 

20 setting energy policy for the United States.

21 Two, EPA is seeking to decide upon an 

22 energy policy for the nation that will have 

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1 limited direct environmental impact, but dramatic 

2 national economic impact. Such a policy decision 

3 is appropriately reserved for the Legislative 

4 Branch of the government.

5 And three, EPA is reaching far beyond its 

6 historical practice and is very likely beyond its 

7 statutory authority in using measures, quote, 

8 "outside the plant boundary," end quote, to 

9 calculate emissions reductions states and 

10 affected sources must meet.

11 In spite of representations to the 

12 contrary, the greenhouse gas emission standards 

13 proposed by EPA for the existing fleet of 

14 electric generating units in Alabama, as well as 

15 in many other states, are achievable only by 

16 decommissioning coal-fired EGU's and by 

17 dispatching generation to natural gas-fired 

18 capacity, regardless of the cost of generation.

19 The types and sources of fuels to 

20 generate electric energy, the cost of energy, the 

21 export and import of energy, the reliability of 

22 the electric grid, and thus energy policy 

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1 throughout the nation would be determined by the 

2 EPA if the proposed greenhouse gas emission 

3 standards are implemented.

4 Regarding whether Congress or EPA should 

5 set energy policy, the Alabama Department of 

6 Environmental Management concurs with the 

7 statement in the June 23rd, 2014, United States 

8 Supreme Court greenhouse gas ruling opinion that 

9 the justices "expect Congress to speak clearly if 

10 it wishes to assign to an agency decisions of 

11 vast economic and political significance," end 

12 quote.

13 EPA has stated that the reduction in 

14 greenhouse gas emissions in the United States 

15 will be negligible compared to worldwide 

16 emissions and that the effort is essentially 

17 symbolic. If the United States is to offer a 

18 low-impact symbolic greenhouse gas reduction 

19 program, hoping to spark similar actions 

20 worldwide while incurring vast economic 

21 consequences, ADEM believes Congress is the 

22 appropriate institution to do so.

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1 In past 111(d) actions and in similar 

2 rulemakings in such areas as new source 

3 performance standards and maximum achievable 

4 control technology standards, EPA has never 

5 ventured beyond tip-of-stack control or work 

6 practices to require reductions. ADEM concludes 

7 that EPA's only legal options for requiring 

8 reductions from existing fossil-fuel-fired power 

9 plants lie in these two areas.

10 Since EPA has rejected tip-of-stack 

11 controls such as carbon capture and sequestration 

12 for these sources, EPA's only legal option lies 

13 in a work practice requirement such as efficiency 

14 improvements.

15 ADEM will submit more detailed comments 

16 to the docket before the deadline. This 

17 concludes our comments.

18 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Carlson.

19 Are there any questions for either 

20 gentlemen?

21 [No audible response.]

22 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you both very much 

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1 for your testimony, and thank you for coming 

2 today.

3 MR. WINDEIER: Thanks for the 

4 opportunity.

5 MR. THOMPSON: Yes, sir.

6 [Pause.]

7 MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are John 

8 Myers and Seth Gunning.

9 [Pause.]

10 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen.

11 [Chorus of "Good morning."] 

12 MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us.

13 I'd like to start with Mr. Myers. Mr. 

14 Myers, okay, if you'll state and spell your name 

15 for the court reporter and then begin testimony.

16 MR. MYERS: Okay. Certainly. My name is 

17 John Myers, M-y-e-r-s. And I'm with the 

18 Tennessee Valley Authority.

19 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. 

20 MR. MYERS: Good morning. My name is 

21 John Myers, Director of Environmental Policy with 

22 the Tennessee Valley Authority. We appreciate 

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1 the opportunity to be among the many voices in 

2 this public hearing.

3 Congress tasked TVA with promoting the 

4 social and economic wellbeing of the residents of 

5 the Tennessee Valley. Reliable and affordable 

6 energy, economic development, and environmental 

7 stewardship are tools TVA uses to achieve this 

8 mission. TVA operates the nation's largest 

9 public power system serving parts of Tennessee, 

10 Alabama, Mississippi, Kentucky, Georgia, North 

11 Carolina, and Virginia, with a population of over 

12 9 million people.

13 Although the region has progressed far in 

14 attaining a better quality of life, many of our 

15 residents and their communities are still 

16 struggling economically and have yet to recover 

17 from the economic recession. It is important to 

18 TVA that the proposed rule not undermine the 

19 progress that has been made.

20 We are continuing to review and analyze 

21 this complex rulemaking and will be providing EPA 

22 detailed comments. But today I want to talk 

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1 about building block 3, using an expanded amount 

2 of less-carbon-intensive generating capacity.

3 It is appropriate that we deliver these 

4 comments here in Atlanta because the Southeast is 

5 uniquely impacted by this building block in the

6 treatment of nuclear units under construction. 

7 Generation fleets across the Southeast have been 

8 transitioning to supply electricity with lower 

9 carbon emissions. For TVA, this has meant 

10 relying more on renewable energy resources, 

11 natural gas-fired generation, and, importantly, 

12 nuclear energy.

13 TVA is completing construction of a 

14 second unit at its Watts Bar Nuclear Plant in 

15 Tennessee. We've invested billions of dollars in 

16 this carbon-free resource. And when Watts Bar 

17 unit 2 comes online in late 2015, it will be the 

18 first new nuclear unit in the twenty-first 

19 century and provide nearly 10,000 gigawatt hours 

20 of emission-free generation per year.

21 Watts Bar 2 is an integral component of 

22 TVA's goal to achieve a more balanced, cleaner 

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1 portfolio of energy resources. We expected this 

2 investment to give TVA a good start toward 

3 complying with the carbon emission regulations. 

4 Under EPA's rule, as proposed, that does not 

5 happen.

6 Rather, TVA and the utilities with 

7 nuclear units under construction are handicapped 

8 because the generation for these units is used to 

9 set more stringent limits on the affected fossil 

10 fleets in our states. Rather than gaining 

11 compliance margin under the proposed rule, 

12 Tennessee, TVA, and Tennessee's compliance risks 

13 are increased. That's not right, and that's poor 

14 environmental policy.

15 EPA asserts that there's flexibilities 

16 for states to use some, none, or all of the 

17 building blocks in crafting the state plans. But 

18 in states where nuclear is under construction, 

19 they have no valid options to assuage the impact 

20 of this block due to its size. Any single source 

21 making this much contribution to a state's 

22 reduction provides a compliance risk to the 

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1 region.

2 The proposed rule effectively punishes 

3 this early action in investments by ratepayers by 

4 creating a big compliance risk. We wanted to 

5 bring this to EPA's attention and very much 

6 appreciate the opportunity to make these brief 

7 comments.

8 Thank you.

9 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Myers.

10 Mr. Gunning.

11 MR. GUNNING: Thank you. My name is Seth 

12 Gunning. My last name is G-u-n-n-i-n-g. I'm a 

13 resident here in Georgia, and I work for the 

14 Sierra Club, as well.

15 The Sierra Club has a membership of 2.4 

16 million people across the country and here in 

17 Georgia. We have about a little over 100,000 

18 members and supporters all across the state. 

19 Those are members who live in almost every 

20 country in Georgia. They're customers of almost 

21 every EMC, municipal electric company, and 

22 Georgia Power in the state.

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1 Our farmer members and, really, all 

2 farmers in Georgia, over the last several years, 

3 both in 2007 and again in 2011 to 2012, have 

4 experienced half-a-billion dollars in crop loss 

5 from extreme weather events driven by climate 

6 change caused by, as we all know, carbon 

7 pollution coming from our nation's existing power 

8 fleet.

9 At the same time that our farmers members 

10 and Georgia farmers have experienced those 

11 losses, our members who are electricity customers 

12 in Georgia are seeing their rates skyrocket. In 

13 2012 and 2013, Georgia Power Company requested 

14 from the Public Service Commission hundreds of 

15 millions of dollars in rate increases to invest 

16 in the exact infrastructure, the existing coal17 fired power plants, that are pushing carbon 

18 pollution into the atmosphere.

19 As an employee of the Sierra Club working 

20 on utility and electric issues, I've been 

21 fortunate to come to know many of our members and 

22 supporters who live in the communities where this 

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1 infrastructure exists, and could testify to the 

2 death, disease, health problems caused on a daily 

3 basis for many of the families who live in close 

4 proximity to these power plants.

5 The Clean Power Plan is a clearly legal, 

6 clearly necessary first national step to cut our 

7 nation's carbon pollution, to reduce our 

8 electricity bills, and to drive our economy into 

9 the twenty-first century.

10 Climate disruption is the greatest 

11 challenge our generation faces. But within it is 

12 a big opportunity to fuel our economy, to put 

13 people to work in healthy energy jobs, and to 

14 leave future generations with a safe, stable 

15 climate.

16 I want to speak just a moment to some of 

17 the myths that I've, unfortunately, heard from 

18 many of the electric utility members who have 

19 testified, and some of the Georgia elected 

20 officials over the past two days.

21 The Clean Power Plan is clearly legal. 

22 The 1970 Clean Air Act, as interpreted by the 

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1 Supreme Court in both 2007 and 2014, clearly 

2 gives the EPA, you all, the authority to regulate 

3 carbon pollution from existing power plants. And 

4 we appreciate you doing so.

5 The Clean Power Plan does not have to 

6 drive up the cost of electricity. If states 

7 choose to implement compliance plans that 

8 emphasize energy efficiency and clean energy, 

9 like wind and solar, we fully expect, based on 

10 what we've seen in the past couple of years, 

11 being that those resources are finally amongst 

12 the cheapest electricity resources on the market 

13 today, that the cost of electricity, electricity 

14 bills for consumers could easily go down.

15 The third myth that I've heard is that 

16 the Clean Power Plan has the potential to kill 

17 thousands of jobs around the country. We already

18 know that the solar industry employs more 

19 Americans right now than the coal industry. In 

20 Georgia, 10,000 Georgians work in the energy 

21 efficiency, solar, and wind industry. At the 

22 same time, about 1,500 people work at Georgia 

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1 coal-fired power plants.

2 And we've only just begun to scratch the 

3 surface of our potential and energy efficiency in 

4 solar in the state. So it's practical to believe 

5 that if the State of Georgia decides on a 

6 compliance plan that emphasizes energy efficiency 

7 and clean energy, we could not only drive down 

8 the cost of electricity, but create tens of 

9 thousands of additional jobs in Georgia.

10 So, in closing, I very much and the 

11 Sierra Club supports the Clean Power Plan as a 

12 first national effort to reduce carbon pollution. 

13 But the fact is it's not yet enough. It does not 

14 meet the demands of international climate 

15 science.

16 So, we encourage EPA to go further, to 

17 set targets to reduce emissions 35 percent by 

18 2020 and to increase goals on energy efficiency 

19 and renewable energy to help us get to that place 

20 while reducing electricity bills and creating 

21 jobs for Americans.

22 Thanks for your time.

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1 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Gunning.

2 And, Mr. Myers, thank you as well.

3 Are there questions for the gentlemen?

4 MR. WORLEY: Just a question for Mr. 

5 Gunning. The statistics that you mention in 

6 terms of the jobs in the solar energy compared to 

7 the coal, is that something you are going to 

8 submit to the record and the citations to that?

9 MR. GUNNING: Yes. Yes.

10 MR. WORLEY: All right. Thank you.

11 MR. THOMPSON: Nick, anything?

12 MR. HUTSON: No. Thank you.

13 MR. THOMPSON: Gentlemen, thank you again 

14 for your testimony. Thank you very much.

15 At this time, we're going to take a five16 minute break and reconvene at -- let's say at 

17 10:30. We'll reconvene in this room at 10:30. 

18 Thank you.

19 [Recess taken from 10:23 to 10:30 a.m.]

20 MR. THOMPSON: Okay, ladies and 

21 gentlemen, we're going to get started here again. 

22 Our next speakers are Greg Mullis and Trey Glenn.

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1 [Pause.]

2 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen.

3 [Chorus of "Good morning."] 

4 MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us.

5 I'd like to start with Mr. Mullis. If 

6 you could state and spell your name for the court 

7 reporter, and then begin your testimony, sir.

8 MR. MULLIS: Absolutely. Good morning 

9 again. Thank you for this opportunity to speak. 

10 My name is Greg Mullis. I'm the Senior Vice 

11 President of Tri-County EMC in Gray, Georgia.

12 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. And spell it for 

13 the court reporter. Spell your name.

14 MR. MULLIS: It's G-r-e-g M-u-l-l-i-s.

15 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you.

16 MR. MULLIS: Thank you.

17 MR. THOMPSON: Begin.

18 MR. MULLIS: Good morning again. Thank 

19 you for this opportunity to address you. As I've 

20 said, I represent Tri-County EMC, an electric 

21 cooperative in Gray, Georgia. We provide 

22 electric service to over 21,000 accounts in 

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1 middle Georgia. We are largely residential and 

2 largely a rural cooperative.

3 Like the other 900 electric cooperatives 

4 in our nation, we are not for profit. We are 

5 community-based organizations that are owned and 

6 governed by our member-owners. Collectively, 

7 cooperatives provide service to 4.5 million

8 Georgians and 42 million people nationwide.

9 Our responsibility is to provide our 

10 member-owners with safe, reliable, and affordable 

11 power.

12 The issues I'll address today impact not 

13 only the cooperatives in Georgia, but all of 

14 Georgia's electric utilities.

15 The homes and businesses we serve are 

16 already struggling to make ends meet in these 

17 difficult economic times. They now face the 

18 possibility of higher energy bills and higher 

19 costs for all goods and services that they 

20 purchase.

21 Under Section 111(d) of the Clean Air 

22 Act, Georgia is being asked to share an unfair 

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1 portion of that burden. The state's reduction 

2 goals are far more stringent than other states 

3 that have done far less in terms of CO2 

4 reduction. Georgia is further being punished by 

5 the EPA for our financial investment to build new 

6 nuclear plants at Plant Vogtle.

7 Georgia had the foresight and took the 

8 initiative to build one of the country's first 

9 new nuclear units in decades, generation that 

10 will be zero-emission. Our state's electric 

11 utilities, including Tri-County EMC, and our 

12 customers will spend roughly $14 billion on these 

13 two new units. But the EPA's goal for Georgia 

14 does not account for this investment. And it 

15 requires a 30 percent reductions in emissions on 

16 top of what we've already accomplished.

17 Under this plan, Georgia will be required 

18 to make the sixth-largest CO2 reduction. We are 

19 being penalized for taking significant early 

20 action. In our opinion, this is bad policy and 

21 unfair treatment.

22 Our members, particularly low- and 

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1 medium-income households, need a break, not 

2 punitive regulations that will break our economy, 

3 while doing very little to impact the global 

4 climate.

5 The communities we serve need to grow, 

6 and they need to grow jobs. Several communities 

7 that we serve have lost significant numbers of 

8 jobs, in one particular instance as much as 30 

9 percent of the industrial and manufacturing job 

10 base since the recession.

11 Many of those jobs were closures, but 

12 many others were jobs that were shipped overseas. 

13 These regulations and the higher energy costs 

14 that they will bring will make those jobs much 

15 harder to replace.

16 We are also committed to our members and 

17 to our communities. Cooperatives brought 

18 electricity to rural Georgia in the 1930s. That 

19 same innovation that brought light to darkness 

20 and dramatically improved the quality of life of 

21 those residents 75 years ago led us to the 

22 formation of Green Power EMC in 2001.

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1 This was Georgia's first utility Green-e 

2 certified renewable energy program. We're very 

3 proud of that. And we've built on that by 

4 continuing to introduce renewable resources in an 

5 intelligent cost-effective way. Our motivation 

6 is not profit. It is the wellbeing of the 

7 members in the communities that we serve.

8 I urge you to withdraw this proposal and 

9 to work with us on a new, commonsense approach, 

10 an all-of-the-above energy strategy.

11 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

12 today.

13 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Mullis.

14 Mr. Glenn.

15 MR. GLENN: Thank you. Trey Glenn, T-r16 e-y G-l-e-n-n. Thank you again, and thank you 

17 for the opportunity to speak to you today.

18 My name is Trey Glenn. I'm the most 

19 recent past Director of the Alabama Department of 

20 Environment Management, and I'm here today on 

21 behalf of the Business Council of Alabama.

22 The Business Council of Alabama, which 

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1 was created in 1985, is the state's foremost 

2 business advocacy organization and the exclusive 

3 affiliate in Alabama of the National 

4 Manufacturers Association and the U.S. Chamber of 

5 Commerce. Working with the Chamber of Commerce 

6 Association of Alabama, the Business Council 

7 represents thousands of businesses employing 1 

8 million working Alabamians.

9 Our members will be significantly 

10 impacted by these proposed rules. And this issue 

11 has been part of our federal agenda that has been 

12 approved and voted on by our board of directors. 

13 I'd like to present three comments 

14 regarding the effects, negative effects of the 

15 proposed rule.

16 The EPA proposal, if finalized, would 

17 impose enormous costs and burdens on Alabama 

18 workers and their families and would hinder our 

19 global economic competitiveness. The impact will 

20 be felt the deepest in states like Alabama, where 

21 fossil fuels provide a significant share of our 

22 electric generation.

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1 The administration's claim that energy 

2 costs will not be impacted by this proposal ring 

3 hollow to most Alabamians, who recall President 

4 Obama's commitment in 2008, when he was 

5 campaigning for the presidency, that under his 

6 Climate Change Plan, electricity rates would 

7 necessarily skyrocket.

8 The Obama plan will undoubtedly increase 

9 electricity prices, which will certainly hinder, 

10 not help, economic growth. Alabama has 

11 historically seen lower-than-average energy costs 

12 in part because our state has been blessed with 

13 an abundance of natural resources that can be 

14 harnessed to power our homes and our businesses 

15 and to make life better for our citizens.

16 Second point. EPA activists -- EPA gave 

17 activist environmental groups a special role in 

18 crafting this proposal. Many of these same 

19 groups, who alongside President Obama, have 

20 declared a war on Alabama coal plants. Groups 

21 such as the Natural Resource Defense Council, the 

22 Sierra Club, and other radical environmental 

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1 groups are not interested in the 16,000 Alabama 

2 coal jobs and the families that are dependent 

3 upon them.

4 These regulations strangle our economy 

5 and our growth. And that is why Alabama leaders 

6 and the majority of Alabama families oppose these 

7 regulations as they are proposed now.

8 The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates 

9 that the Obama EPA regulations, as proposed, 

10 could increase the cost to consumers by as much 

11 as 30 percent. These estimates are not 

12 surprising, considering the President himself 

13 anticipated similar results in his commitments 

14 from 2008 that I noted earlier.

15 Neither skyrocketing -- neither consumers 

16 nor small businesses, or our critical 

17 manufacturing industry, can afford skyrocketing 

18 rates, and certainly not 30 percent higher rates.

19 Thank you very much for the opportunity 

20 to speak to you on behalf of the Business Council 

21 of Alabama and for holding this hearing.

22 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Glenn.

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1 Are there any questions for the 

2 gentlemen?

3 [No audible response.] 

4 MR. THOMPSON: All right. Well, again, 

5 thank you both very much for your testimony 

6 today.

7 MR. GLENN: Thank you.

8 MR. MULLIS: Thank you.

9 [Pause.]

10 MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 

11 David Harman and Harvard Ayers.

12 [Pause.]

13 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen.

14 [Chorus of "Good morning."] 

15 MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us 

16 today.

17 I'd like begin with Mr. Harman. Please 

18 state your name and spell it for the court 

19 reporter. And then you can begin your testimony.

20 MR. HARMAN: Thank you. My name is David 

21 Harman, spelled H-a-r-m-a-n.

22 I'm a businessman of 42 years and 

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1 counting. I've been a North Carolina CPA for 29 

2 years. I read books, and I analyze information 

3 to arrive at my conclusions. My mind is open. 

4 And I strongly support the EPA's proposed rules 

5 to govern carbon pollution emission guidelines 

6 for existing sources.

7 This proposal to begin the process of 

8 reducing carbon emissions of the nation's 

9 existing power plants is a commonsense beginning. 

10 The goal to reduce the emissions by 30 percent 

11 below the '05 levels is certainly achievable, and 

12 in my opinion is not even a significant enough 

13 reduction. But we'll take it as a start.

14 The process allows the states to have 

15 choices over how each one will achieve the goal, 

16 and we think that's prudent and fair.

17 This planet has a carbon problem. It 

18 really began in 1781 when James Watt patented the 

19 first practical steam engine. That's when humans 

20 began using machines to do the manual labor that 

21 we needed done, and those machines just needed a 

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1 based fossil fuels. And a process was set in 

2 motion that has become seemingly unstoppable.

3 For the last 230 years, this has been the 

4 paradigm. Machines can do our manual labor. The 

5 earth-provided cheap and plentiful fuel for 

6 energy was needed to run the machines directly or 

7 to provide electricity. The earth provided that 

8 cheap and plentiful fuel in the form of fossil 

9 fuel.

10 Fourth, it's the Manifest Destiny of 

11 humans to take what we want and need from the 

12 earth and to change the earth to suit our needs. 

13 And there was a fifth step in that paradigm. 

14 There seemed to be no apparent downside to 

15 burning all the cheap and plentiful carbon-based 

16 energy.

17 We've known now for at least 50 years or 

18 more that the last two components were always 

19 wrong. There was always a downside. The slow20 motion catastrophe of climate change began with 

21 the first practical coal-fired steam engine that 

22 seemed so brilliant at the time. 

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1 And the minute the EPA proposed these 

2 regulations that we're talking about back in 

3 June, House Speaker John Boehner delivered his 

4 response, quote, "The President's plan is nuts. 

5 There's really no more succinct way to describe 

6 it," end quote. But that's politics talking, not 

7 science.

8 The same science and scientific method 

9 that gave us penicillin and the salt vaccine, 

10 decoded DNA, flew us to the moon, gave us Teflon, 

11 gave us nylon, gave us radar and lasers, gave us 

12 statin drugs, computers, the green revolution in 

13 food production, deduced the Periodic Table of 

14 Elements, and taught us how the continental 

15 plates move over eons of time is now telling us 

16 in no uncertain terms that we are accumulating 

17 CO2 molecules in the atmosphere, blocks the heat 

18 of the earth from escaping.

19 The earth is warming. The climates are 

20 changing. And the U.S. population is last out of 

21 20 countries just surveyed about the beliefs that 

22 human activity is responsible for climate change. 

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1 What is wrong with us? Why will we not face the 

2 greatest geophysical threat to humanity in 

3 history openly and honestly?

4 Well, it's because people who profit from 

5 perpetuating our energy system just as it is into 

6 the future have politicized and obfuscated the 

7 issues, and great numbers of Americans have 

8 concluded that science must somehow just be wrong 

9 about this topic.

10 A tiny vocal minority of humans is making 

11 more money than kings on earth, while the earth 

12 is dying from their profits and dying before our 

13 eyes. And our so-called elected representatives 

14 are shamelessly taking money for their votes in 

15 the biggest conflict-of-interest and vote-buying 

16 in human history, and it's legal.

17 The EPA and our Congress must stand up to 

18 this vocal minority and stop delaying the 

19 absolutely necessary process of moving away from 

20 fossil fuels. This corrupt process puts my 

21 granddaughters and their children in danger, and 

22 it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong.

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1 If we're not going to give up our energy2 rich lifestyles, and if the rest of the world 

3 wants the same energy-rich lifestyles we have, 

4 and if the energy sources presently in use are 

5 killing the planet, then the inescapable 

6 conclusion is that we must promote energy 

7 efficiency and conservation.

8 And we must get our energy from sources 

9 that will not kill the planet -- namely, 

10 renewables. And we must enact a revenue-neutral 

11 carbon tax to hasten the move away from fossil 

12 fuels.

13 And I appreciate your giving me five 

14 minutes to speak on the record. This is what I 

15 think democracy looks like. 

16 Thank you.

17 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Harman. 

18 Thank you.

19 Mr. Ayers.

20 MR. AYERS: Thank you, sir. I do 

21 appreciate ya'll giving us this time to say what 

22 we think about things. And at risk of expressing 

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1 my perspective, I would say that coal has 

2 declared a war on the earth.

3 MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Ayers, could you --

4 again, I'm sorry for the interruption -- state 

5 and spell your name for the record?

6 MR. AYERS: I'm sorry. Yes, sir. I'm 

7 sorry. I should have said that first. Harvard 

8 Ayers, A-y-e-r-s.

9 So, my name is Dr. Harvard Ayers, 

10 recently retired Professor Emeritus of 

11 Anthropology at Appalachian State University in 

12 Boone, North Carolina. I am delighted to support 

13 President Obama's rule to lower carbon pollution 

14 from existing stationary sources. And in fact, 

15 it is the first step on a major journey to the 

16 elimination of fossil fuel combustion.

17 Considering that most carbon emissions 

18 causing climate change in the world come from 

19 fossil fuels that are burned in such stationary 

20 sources are in the transportation sector, 

21 President Obama has now taken significant actions 

22 to begin the long journey in both of these U.S. 

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1 sectors.

2 The 2009 actions will raise fuel 

3 standards to 35.5 miles per gallon by 2016 for 

4 automobiles and light trucks, and another more 

5 recent action raising the numbers to 54.5 miles 

6 per gallon by 2025. New regulations for large 

7 trucks will increase their miles per gallon by 

8 about 20 percent.

9 The proposed current stationary source 

10 rule under consideration today would cut 30 

11 percent of those carbon emissions by 2030. It 

12 allows considerable flexibility for individual 

13 states, as it does not specify how these cuts are 

14 to be reached. By far the most effective cuts 

15 would come from replacing fossil fuel electricity 

16 with zero-carbon options, primarily solar, wind, 

17 conservation and efficiency.

18 For 2012, transportation sources 

19 accounted for 32 percent of our carbon emissions 

20 and stationary sources, both electrical and 

21 industrial amounted to about 52 percent --

22 clearly, the two more important sectors to look 

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1 for sizable cuts of CO2.

2 By roughly 2030, the transportation cuts 

3 would amount to about 12 percent of the total CO2 

4 emissions, and the stationary and other 

5 electricity source cuts to about 15 percent, 

6 giving us 27 percent, simple addition, reduction 

7 of our country's total CO2 emissions by 2030.

8 The 2012 -- in 2012, the U.S. was 

9 emitting approximately 5.3 billion metric tons of 

10 CO2. By 2030, then, considering the cuts 

11 discussed, that amount will have dropped over 

12 that time from 5.3 to 3.9 billion metric tons, 

13 indicating that, at this rate of CO2 decline, it 

14 would take about 50 years to end fossil fuel 

15 pollution.

16 Since serious impacts are already 

17 occurring due to the existing carbon pollution, 

18 and keeping in mind that CO2 in our atmosphere 

19 will keep rising for years after we stop burning 

20 fossil fuels, we must take this good first step 

21 and build quickly to stop the rest.

22 Besides taking the first, absolutely 

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1 critical step of reducing our fossil fuel 

2 pollution, we can, for the very first time, pass 

3 the smile test when we urge China and other large 

4 carbon polluters to cut back. Now, President 

5 Obama, thank you for taking this first important 

6 step. Now let's accelerate your pace to a 

7 fossil-free future.

8 The ink was not yet dry on my 

9 presentation, which I just gave, when I heard, as 

10 many of you have, a couple of days ago, the 

11 President Obama has approved oil and gas 

12 exploration off the Carolina coast in the 

13 Atlantic from Florida to Delaware to begin soon.

14 My overview of our climate change picture 

15 would not be complete without two questions for 

16 President Obama: Sir, where will be the areas 

17 where oil and gas are to be left in the ground to 

18 stop climate change, your recent statement? And, 

19 is American carbon different from Alberta tar

20 sands carbon?

21 Secondly, can we on the East Coast be 

22 assured that what happened in the Gulf won't 

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1 happen here to our beaches and our offshore 

2 areas? Please don't take us backwards on climate 

3 change. The earth's future depends on it and on 

4 you, President Obama.

5 Last statement. This is by Amory Lovins. 

6 I quoted him from the talk I heard two nights ago 

7 by Amory. "Nuclear power is an energy source of 

8 the future whose time has passed."

9 Thank you very much.

10 MR. THOMPSON: And thank you very much, 

11 Mr. Ayers.

12 Are there any questions for Mr. Harman or 

13 Mr. Ayers?

14 [No audible response.] 

15 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Well, Mr. Harman 

16 and Mr. Ayers, thank you both very much for your 

17 testimony.

18 [Pause.]

19 MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 

20 Harry Gregory and Michael Churchman.

21 [Pause.]

22 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen, 

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1 and thanks for joining us.

2 [Chorus of "Good morning."] 

3 MR. THOMPSON: I'd like to start with 

4 you, Mr. Gregory. If you could state your name 

5 and spell it for the court reporter, and then you 

6 can begin your testimony.

7 MR. GREGORY: Harry Gregory, H-a-r-r-y, 

8 Gregory, G-r-e-g-o-r-y.

9 I live in Savannah, Georgia. And I'm a 

10 student at Savannah State University. I'm a 

11 member of the Environmental Science Club. We are 

12 collecting signatures on a divestment petition on 

13 campus. And I'm also a member of the "radical" 

14 Sierra Club, the environmental group.

15 At the UN Sustainable Energy for All 

16 forum, Sean Collins, with Student Energy, said, 

17 "This is the first generation to experience the 

18 effects of climate change and the last generation 

19 that can do something about it."

20 I have three sons who are part of this 

21 generation. I returned to school to learn what I 

22 can do to promote policies favorable to renewable 

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1 energy and help to accelerate the transition.

2 My family and I have lived in coastal 

3 South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida for 15 

4 years. It is paradise. When I go to the 

5 beaches, I spend time picking up other people's 

6 trash because it annoys me that anyone would come 

7 to paradise and leave trash behind. My father 

8 and grandfather taught me to return things to the 

9 same, or better, condition than I found them. If 

10 I borrow something, I clean it before I return 

11 it.

12 I want power plants to do the same thing. 

13 They borrow our air and water. I want them to 

14 clean it before they return it. Not doing this 

15 keeps their cost of business artificially low. 

16 They are fighting the Clean Power Plan because 

17 the extra costs will accelerate the shift to 

18 renewable energy.

19 We all know renewable energy is the 

20 future, and we all know why polluters want to 

21 stall the future. They make money putting their 

22 trash in our air and water, but that business 

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1 model is obsolete.

2 Debating the merits of the Clean Power 

3 Plan is a smokescreen. Business-as-usual is 

4 ending. The industry isn't here to win this 

5 fight. They are here to prolong the shift to 

6 renewable energy by showing how hard they will 

7 fight, every step of the way.

8 The Clean Power Plan doesn't even require 

9 them to return clean air. It will require them 

10 to return air that is less dirty. Yet they are 

11 fighting it like dinosaurs stuck in a tar pit.

12 They struggle to show that the safeguards 

13 will cause rate hikes. But remember, these are 

14 the people who can't estimate the cost of 

15 building a power plant accurately. They plead 

16 for lost jobs without regard for the jobs at risk 

17 in the tourism industry or the new jobs that will 

18 come with renewable energy innovation.

19 The telegraph put Pony Express riders out 

20 of work. The automobile reduced jobs making 

21 buggy whips. We can adapt to progress by choice, 

22 or we will be forced to adapt to climate change. 

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1 Either path will be disruptive. We are entering 

2 a new era. Let's embrace the opportunities that 

3 come with it.

4 I applaud the EPA for taking on this 

5 fight. I urge you to implement the Clean Power 

6 Plan and start the process of making it stronger.

7 Thank you.

8 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Gregory. 

9 Thank you for your testimony.

10 Mr. Churchman?

11 MR. CHURCHMAN: Hi. My name is Michael 

12 Churchman. I'm Executive Director of the Alabama 

13 Environmental Council. Anybody that knows me 

14 knows that I wear many hats, like many people. I 

15 want to share with you today some of the things I 

16 think of when I wear those hats.

17 In my work, the Alabama Environmental 

18 Council has worked on land use and waste 

19 reduction issues for many years, longer than the 

20 EPA has been around. We do a lot of work on 

21 recycling, and with that hat on, we teach people 

22 to reduce waste, reuse as much as possible, and 

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1 then recycle to conserve as many of our natural 

2 resources as possible.

3 I'm encouraged every day by people that 

4 want to reduce their negative impacts on our 

5 environment and leave the planet better than they 

6 found it. The Clean Power Plan would help reduce 

7 waste.

8 The Clean Power Plan would also help to 

9 reduce the unaccounted-for carbon pollution that 

10 is being emitted into the air. When we work with 

11 businesses to recycle, they have to pay for the 

12 trash that gets hauled away. They can't just go 

13 to the edge of their property and dump it onto 

14 their neighbor's property.

15 For decades, dirty power plants, the 

16 largest sources of carbon pollution, have been 

17 allowed to dump unlimited amounts of carbon into 

18 the air. These power plants are currently 

19 emitting huge amounts of carbon pollution as if 

20 it just goes away. "Away" really means into our 

21 air and our communities. There is no "away."

22 And there are huge costs that we 

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1 currently pay to our health and to our wallets 

2 that will only grow unless we act. The health of 

3 our children and future generations is on the 

4 line.

5 As we've expanded our work on energy 

6 policy in Alabama, I often wear another hat. 

7 I've had conversations with business owners that 

8 are trying to help be as energy efficient as 

9 possible and grow the clean energy economy. 

10 Small businesses have shared with me that they 

11 can save homeowners an average of 26 percent on 

12 their energy bills monthly, and this makes their 

13 homes more comfortable through energy efficiency.

14 When people talk about electricity rates, 

15 we should remember that energy efficiency is a 

16 thing that can help all of us to lower our bills, 

17 and it should be pursued heavily.

18 I also talk to a lot of people that see 

19 that renewable energy, especially solar, is the 

20 future. However, the rates paid to distributive 

21 producers, along with the tariffs charged by 

22 utilities in Alabama are restrictive and do not 

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1 incentivize this new technology that is growing 

2 across the rest of the Southeast. Alabama is 

3 behind many states, including Georgia.

4 The Clean Power Plan would spur 

5 innovation, accelerate the clean energy economy, 

6 and create good American jobs.

7 Another hat that I wear is a Boy Scout 

8 hat. I'm a Scoutmaster for my son's troop and an 

9 Eagle Scout. As such, I learned the importance 

10 of leaving no trace when we venture out into 

11 nature.

12 One of the very important lessons that 

13 I'm trying to teach to our scouts is to leave a 

14 better place than we found it. When we hike 

15 along a beautiful hiking trail, it's discouraging 

16 to see someone else's trash. How can we teach 

17 our children this lesson if our businesses and 

18 government regulations don't reflect this?

19 The Clean Power Plan helps us move toward 

20 leaving the planet as good or better than we 

21 found it.

22 I hope people that know me also know 

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1 about the hat that I wear relating to my faith. 

2 I belong to a denomination that places a high 

3 importance on care of creation. Old Testament 

4 teachings record God as placing the 

5 responsibility for humans to care for the earth, 

6 similar to tending a garden.

7 Anyone that has done any gardening knows 

8 that it is a delicate system. I never realized 

9 the connectedness of everything until I wanted to 

10 grow vegetables for my family. Too much rain or 

11 not enough, too much fertilizer or plantings too 

12 close had huge impacts on the whole garden. The 

13 same goes for our planet. There are a limited 

14 number of resources, and we must be mindful of 

15 our impacts on others.

16 My faith teaches me that acting on the 

17 climate is a moral imperative and to put off 

18 acting is abdicating our responsibility.

19 Lastly, a hat that I love to wear is that 

20 of dad and husband. In our family, it is very 

21 important to recognize human rights and to 

22 acknowledge the climate is changing, and 

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1 recognize our responsibility to act in such a way 

2 that my children and theirs will have a 

3 comfortable place to live.

4 My 11-year-old daughter, my 13-year-old 

5 son have a right to inherit a livable planet. If 

6 we don't act soon, their world will be vastly 

7 different than the one we live in today. That's 

8 not fair.

9 Climate disruptions are the greatest 

10 challenge facing our generation. As I'm sure 

11 everyone in this room would say, I want better 

12 for my children. And that is perhaps the most 

13 important reason why I support the EPA's proposed 

14 Clean Power Plan. 

15 Thank you.

16 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Churchman, 

17 and Mr. Gregory.

18 Any questions for either of the 

19 gentlemen?

20 [No audible response.] 

21 MR. THOMPSON: Well, again, thank you 

22 both very much for your testimony. Thank you 

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1 very much.

2 [Pause.]

3 MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 

4 Christy Chewning and Free Polazzo, P-o-l-a-z-z-o.

5 [Pause.]

6 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning. Good 

7 morning to the both of you.

8 [Pause.]

9 MR. THOMPSON: And we'll also need you to 

10 submit one out front, sir.

11 Okay. Beginning with you, Mrs. Chewning, 

12 if you could just state and spell your name for 

13 the court reporter, and then you can begin with 

14 your testimony.

15 MS. CHEWNING: Okay. Thank you.

16 MR. THOMPSON: You're welcome.

17 MS. CHEWNING: My name is Christy, C-h-r18 i-s-t-. Last name is Chewning, C-h-e-w-n-i-n-g.

19 I would like to thank you for the 

20 opportunity to come and speak to you today. 

21 Again, my name is Christy Chewing. I'm the 

22 Manager of Marketing at Central Georgia Electric 

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1 Membership Corporation. We're located in 

2 Jackson, Georgia.

3 Central Georgia meets the needs of 

4 members of a 14-county area, which is 

5 approximately 51,000 billed accounts and 5,331 

6 lines of distribution, miles of distribution.

7 Electric cooperatives support the 

8 development of cost-effective renewable energy 

9 and energy efficiency. We are leading by example 

10 with that. In fact, since 2009, electric 

11 cooperatives have doubled their renewable energy 

12 capacity and have made long-term investments in 

13 wind, solar, hydro-energy production, as well a 

14 making long-term investments in energy 

15 efficiency.

16 Central Georgia EMC where I work is a 

17 member of Green Power EMC. Green Power is a 

18 renewable energy company of the Georgia EMC's. 

19 Through Green Power EMC, cooperatives in Georgia 

20 lead the state and were the first utility to 

21 offer green power to our consumers.

22 Just a few weeks ago, Green Power EMC, we 

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1 announced a new solar partnership in which 

2 Georgia's EMC's are going to be receiving 20 

3 megawatts of solar energy from a solar farm that 

4 is 137 acres in Jeff Davis County.

5 Cooperatives care about the environment. 

6 After all, we live in the same communities that 

7 we serve. We play with our kids in the same 

8 parks. We breathe the same air, and we drink the 

9 same water. We also care deeply about affordable 

10 energy. Most importantly, that's what our 

11 members care about.

12 We work every day to provide affordable 

13 and reliable electricity to all we serve. 

14 Fortunately, support for the environment and a 

15 true all-of-the-above energy policy are not 

16 mutually exclusive. Cooperatives work hard to 

17 build portfolios of generation resources that 

18 meet all of the needs of their members, including 

19 safety, reliability, affordability, and 

20 environmental sustainability.

21 Unfortunately, this proposal slams the 

22 door on our all-of-the-above energy strategy, 

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1 handpicking the winners, the losers, in the 

2 pursuit of CO2 reductions that represent really 

3 only a small proportion of the world's CO2 

4 emissions. And we believe it will have a 

5 statistically irrelevant long-term impact on 

6 climate change.

7 I urge you to withdraw your proposal and 

8 work with us, the EMC's, on a commonsense 

9 approach that will be a true all-of-the-above 

10 energy strategy.

11 Thank you.

12 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mrs. Chewning.

13 Mr. Polazzo.

14 MR. POLAZZO: Do we get to ask questions?

15 MR. THOMPSON: No, sir.

16 MR. POLAZZO: Oh.

17 MR. THOMPSON: We listen to you today.

18 MR. POLAZZO: Okay. Thank you, 

19 gentlemen. I appreciate you coming to Atlanta.

20 MR. THOMPSON:. Mr. Polazzo, I'm sorry. 

21 Could you start by stating --

22 MR. POLAZZO: Oh, my name is Free 

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1 Polazzo. I live in Douglas County. My utility 

2 is GreyStone Power, one of the cooperatives --

3 THE COURT REPORTER: Can you spell your 

4 name?

5 MR. POLAZZO: -- that actually charges me 

6 extra for green power, by the way.

7 F-r-e-e- is my first name. P-o-l-a-z-z8 o.

9 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you.

10 MR. POLAZZO: And I'm here partly 

11 representing Greening Georgia, which is an 

12 advocacy group for the environment that's part of 

13 the State Democratic Party. We were approved 

14 last year, another first advocacy group in 

15 Georgia. And the reason is that we need this is 

16 that for some reason, clean air, clean water, and 

17 clean food have become a political issue.

18 And this is making us a little crazy in 

19 Georgia, because even though we have choices, 

20 like the cooperatives if you live in a 

21 cooperative area, in my cooperative, and I've 

22 lived there 16 years, we have elections every 

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1 year. There has never been anybody running 

2 against anybody. It's always like one person on 

3 the ballot.

4 So I don't know what kind of choices we 

5 have. The board nominates people. It's very 

6 difficult to run. And it's almost like the 

7 politics in our state and in some of the other 

8 states, where we -- it's a very exclusive 

9 community.

10 So I wrote this along a more personal.

11 Dear Administrator McCarthy: I agree 

12 with the evidence that shows carbon dioxide and 

13 other global warming pollution endangers public 

14 health and welfare. I applaud the EPA for using 

15 its authority under the Clean Air Act, which was, 

16 small D, democratically approved by the whole 

17 country, to take action to protect us from 

18 pollution that threatens public health.

19 And I urge you to move rapidly to 

20 finalize a strong rule designed to control carbon 

21 pollution from existing coal-fired and natural 

22 gas-fired power plants.

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1 My comments will address two major issues 

2 that I personally have experienced. The first 

3 one is going to be about, are we -- how do we 

4 calculate the true cost of burning coal? And the 

5 second one was, does anybody calculate the true 

6 cost to individuals in our communities who suffer 

7 from illnesses exacerbated by the burning of 

8 coal?

9 First, do we actually calculate true 

10 costs? Lower cost is often given as a reason for 

11 keeping coal-fired plants running. But my 

12 experience says we don't actually calculate the 

13 cost to the community of burning coal. Only the 

14 cost of the coal mining industry -- mining, 

15 transporting, and burning -- are included in the 

16 numbers that we evaluate.

17 As a CPA trained at the University of 

18 Michigan's Graduate School of Business, who 

19 earned an MBA in Accounting and then worked as an 

20 external public auditor, internal auditor, 

21 controller, and who also taught accounting as an 

22 assistant professor at several colleges, I can 

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1 unequivocally state that many of the actual costs 

2 incurred by the people in our communities are not 

3 included in the spreadsheets that calculate the 

4 cost of burning coal, and which are then used to 

5 compare the various forms of energy production 

6 methods now available, especially in the South.

7 Two -- I'm not going to go into an 

8 accounting lecture, so don't worry. What is the 

9 cost to people who suffer illnesses made worse by 

10 burning coal?

11 Well, first I want to look at the cost to 

12 coal miners and their families. I've lived in 

13 Eastern Ohio near the border of West Virginia 

14 where I taught accounting and had a class full of 

15 coal miners. This was at a community college. 

16 How to earn a living in an office environment, as 

17 many were fearful of suffering badly in the mines 

18 and wanted a way out of them.

19 I'm telling you this as a way of letting 

20 you know of my personal experience with the 

21 population that often we don't talk about or 

22 include in our cost calculations.

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1 MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Polazzo, I'm afraid 

2 your time has expired. But I'd like to suggest 

3 that you --

4 MR. POLAZZO: Oh. We get five minutes?

5 MR. THOMPSON: Yes, sir. Your five 

6 minutes has expired. But what I'd like to 

7 suggest is that you give, share a copy of this 

8 for the record, out front.

9 MR. POLAZZO: Yeah. And it's on -- I put 

10 it on the website.

11 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. 

12 MR. POLAZZO: Yeah. Let's remember the 

13 coal miners and the children.

14 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Before you leave, 

15 are there any questions for Mrs. Chewning or Mr. 

16 Polazzo?

17 [No audible response.] 

18 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Well, thank you 

19 both very much for your testimony. Thank you.

20 MR. POLAZZO: Thank you for coming here.

21 MR. THOMPSON: Yes, sir.

22 [Pause.] 

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1 MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are Greg 

2 Andeck and Wendell Rigsby.

3 [Pause.] 

4 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning. Are you Mr. 

5 Andeck or Mr. Rigsby?

6 MR. ANDECK: Andeck.

7 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Wendell Rigsby?

8 [Inaudible interjection.]

9 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. So he's not in the 

10 room? No?

11 MALE VOICE: No, he's not in the room 

12 now.

13 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you.

14 [Inaudible interjection.]

15 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you very 

16 much, sir.

17 All right. Please state your name for 

18 the court reporter and spell it, and then you can 

19 begin your testimony.

20 MR. ANDECK: I'm Greg Andeck. A-n-d-e-c21 k. Thank you so much for having me today. I'm 

22 from North Carolina and represent the 

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1 Environmental Defense Fund.

2 EDF is a national organization with 

3 800,000 members. EDF links science, economics, 

4 law, and private sector partnerships to solve our 

5 most serious environmental challenges.

6 The proposed Clean Power Plan is a 

7 critical step to reduce climate pollution emitted 

8 from U.S. power plants, one of the largest 

9 sources of greenhouse gases in the world. EDF 

10 strongly supports the Clean Power Plan.

11 The recent Risky Business report 

12 documented substantial economic costs from 

13 climate change that will affect the Southeast --

14 damage and loss of coastal infrastructure and 

15 property, extreme heat impacts, and shifting 

16 patterns in agriculture.

17 The Southeast is the region expected to 

18 be the most affected by increase in temperatures. 

19 Extremely hot days, 95 degrees or above, could 

20 cause a decrease in labor productivity by 3.2 

21 percent in the construction, mining, utilities, 

22 transportation, and agricultural sectors. 

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1 Extreme heat is also projected to cause 11,000 to 

2 36,000 more deaths each year.

3 Now, another report, the National Climate 

4 Assessment, found that climate change just in 

5 Georgia alone could reduce corn yields by 15 

6 percent and reduce wheat yields by 20 percent by 

7 2020, only six years away. Recall that the 

8 drought in 2007 cost Georgia's economy $339 

9 million in crop losses.

10 Fortunately, we know how to reduce carbon 

11 pollution from power plants. Update the existing 

12 fleet, rely more on low-polluting generation such 

13 as wind and solar, increase energy efficiency. 

14 The benefits? Healthier families, more jobs, and 

15 economic development across the Southeast.

16 North Carolina, home to the country's 

17 largest electric utility, illustrates how states 

18 could benefit from the flexibility proposed in 

19 the Clean Power Plan. The plan would allow North 

20 Carolina to get credit for steps it already has 

21 taken to grow clean energy and invest in energy 

22 efficiency.

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1 Here are some examples. North Carolina 

2 has an energy efficiency policy that allows 

3 utilities to earn a fair return when they make 

4 energy efficiency investments, rather than build 

5 new traditional power plants. North Carolina 

6 also has a renewables portfolio standard that 

7 requires investor-owned utilities to increase 

8 their mix of clean energy and energy efficiency 

9 resources to 12.5 percent by 2021.

10 The RPS will help the state comply with 

11 the mission reduction targets cost-effectively 

12 while cutting emissions of carbon pollution and 

13 other pollutants harmful to public health.

14 North Carolina proves the clean energy 

15 economy benefits our citizens. North Carolina's 

16 solar industry is now ranked number four in the 

17 country in installed solar capacity, thanks to 

18 policies that make it easier for investors to 

19 finance projects.

20 And lastly, North Carolina has more than 

21 1,000 clean energy and energy efficiency 

22 companies that can help the state meet the Clean 

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1 Power Plan.

2 North Carolina demonstrates how a state 

3 can move to a clean energy economy in a 

4 thoughtful, measured, and cost-effective manner. 

5 Other Southeast states can adopt similar policies 

6 and programs to reduce carbon emissions while 

7 balancing regional economic needs.

8 Now we need a Clean Power Plan to help 

9 our entire country transition quickly and cost 

10 effectively to a clean energy economy.

11 Thank you again for the opportunity to 

12 testify. And EDF will be submitting additional 

13 technical comments on the rule.

14 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 

15 Andeck.

16 Mr. Rigsby. Good morning, first of all.

17 MR. RIGSBY: Good morning.

18 MR. THOMPSON: And if you'll state your 

19 name and then spell it for the court reporter, 

20 and then you can begin with your testimony, sir.

21 MR. RIGSBY: Yeah. My name is Wendell 

22 Rigsby. Wendell is W-e-n-d-e-l-l. Rigsby, R-iOLENDER REPORTING, INC.

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1 g-s-b-y.

2 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you.

3 MR. RIGSBY: I live in Jasper, Alabama. 

4 I'm a member of UMWA Local 7930 and work for 

5 Drummond Coal Company at Natural Bridge Mine, the 

6 Arkadelphia Mine, the Senior Mine, and the Shoal 

7 Creek Mines, for a total of 40 years.

8 Like many of the miners who have 

9 testified before the EPA regarding the Clean 

10 Power Plan you are proposing, I grew up in a 

11 small community in Alabama.

12 However, before my mining career began, I 

13 joined the Navy. At the time, I had three 

14 brothers serving in the Navy, and I felt honored 

15 and proud to serve my country also. I joined the 

16 Navy in November of 1968. After boot camp, I 

17 received orders to serve aboard the aircraft 

18 carrier USS America, CBA 66.

19 I made a Mediterranean sea tour and then 

20 was deployed to Vietnam as a classified aircraft 

21 handler and director on the flight deck. During 

22 that time, we -- 24 hours a day, there was 

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1 bombing missions of the Gulf of Tonkin. And I 

2 worked the 12-hour shifts at night directing the 

3 planes. And unfortunately, I saw some men die, 

4 some of the pilots and some of the aircraft 

5 handlers blown over deck, accidents.

6 But as most who served, I felt a unique 

7 bond with others who were drafted and joined the 

8 military. Military service teaches you many 

9 things, including a deep sense of commitment to 

10 your country and a brotherhood for those who 

11 serve with you. My service to our country has 

12 helped define who I am. I am proud of my service 

13 to this nation.

14 When I returned from Vietnam, there was 

15 no parades, no outward recognition from the 

16 nation as a whole for the sacrifices that were 

17 made by so many on behalf of the country. Those 

18 of us who could cope with this painful reality 

19 had the scars of war and began to build our lives 

20 in the small communities where we were raised.

21 In 1974, I began my career in the Peabody 

22 Coal Warrior Mine. After its closure I moved on 

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1 to the Drummond Coal Mines. I built a life for 

2 my family, educated my children, and have been a 

3 hardworking member of society. And like my 

4 military service, I was surrounded by a very 

5 unique group of people. Coal miners rely on each 

6 other. We look out for one another. And the 

7 work that we do creates a brotherhood of its own.

8 There are few occupations in the world 

9 that requires each person to rely so heavily on 

10 the brothers and sisters they work with. Like my 

11 military service, I am proud to be a coal miner. 

12 I have worked hard to make a living in the mines, 

13 and those efforts have helped me -- helped this 

14 nation to grow into a superpower.

15 Coal has powered the industrial base, 

16 built sustainable manufacturing, and made sure 

17 that when each of you flipped a switch, the 

18 lights come on. I have made a good living in the 

19 mines, and through my years of service earned a 

20 pension and health care for my retirement years.

21 Yet, just as when I returned from 

22 Vietnam, I feel my country has chosen to abandon 

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1 me. While the circumstances are very different, 

2 the message is the same. With the implementation 

3 of this rule, you are threatening all that I have 

4 worked for. You will put my pension plan at risk 

5 and eliminate my health care plan at the same 

6 time.

7 The EPA's plan to marginalize the coal 

8 industry in this country will have no positive 

9 impact on the global problem you are targeting. 

10 But it will destroy all that I and my fellow 

11 miners have worked for.

12 Like before, there will not be any 

13 parades. There will be no recognition of the 

14 efforts miners have made to build this nation. 

15 And it appears you have decided you are done with 

16 us, that we are no longer part of your plan, and 

17 can be sacrificed.

18 Yes, the circumstances may be very 

19 different. But let there be no mistakes: The 

20 idea is very much the same. You just want to get 

21 this over with, ignore us, and push us off to the 

22 side. You just want to forget that we were ever 

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1 here. And I have experienced those feelings 

2 before. And the plan to turn your backs on the 

3 coal miner are no more justifiable now than it 

4 was when I returned from military service.

5 Let me assure you as one who has served 

6 this nation in wartime and in the coal mines: 

7 Our struggle against this rule is only just 

8 beginning. I do hope that you will have more of 

9 these hearings in the coal-mining communities 

10 that these rulings will affect, so you will 

11 understand the impact of this nation and our --

12 as a whole.

13 Thank you for your time in letting me 

14 testify.

15 MR. THOMPSON: And thank you for your 

16 testimony, Mr. Rigsby.

17 Are there any questions for Mr. Andeck or 

18 Mr. Rigsby?

19 [No audible response.] 

20 MR. THOMPSON: And, Mr. Rigsby, thank you 

21 for your service to the country, sir.

22 MR. RIGSBY: Thank you.

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1 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you.

2 [Pause.]

3 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. At this time, we're 

4 going to take a five-minute break, or a little 

5 more than five minutes. Let's reconvene in this 

6 room at 11:30. At 11:30. Thank you.

7 [Recess taken from 11:22 to 11:30 a.m.]

8 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Good morning. 

9 [Chorus of "Good morning."] 

10 MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us, 

11 gentlemen. We're going to start with Mr. 

12 Dewberry, if you'll state and spell your name for 

13 the court reporter, and then you can begin with 

14 your testimony, sir.

15 MR. DEWBERRY: Thank you.

16 MR. THOMPSON: You're welcome.

17 MR. DEWBERRY: My name is Daryl, D-a-r-y18 l, middle initial is H, Dewberry, D-e-w-b-e-r-r19 y. I'm the International Vice President for the 

20 United Mine Workers of America, District 20, 

21 which covers the Southeast -- the Southeast, 

22 which is probably going to have the worst impact 

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1 as a result of these EPA regs going in at 30 

2 percent greater than the 2005 level.

3 Let me say first and foremost I'm really 

4 disappointed that we didn't hold these hearings 

5 in the coal fields so that you could look the 

6 coal miners, the steel workers who make coke to 

7 make the steel, the railroad workers that haul 

8 the coal and coke, as well as the power plant 

9 workers -- look them in the face and hear from 

10 them.

11 You know, it's announced on TV. We feel 

12 like it's a done deal. We've never taken 

13 anything lightly. Since 1890, we've been a 

14 diverse union, first union to have diversity on 

15 the executive board. African Americans served on 

16 the executive board in 1890. And, you know, it's 

17 evident that without the coal, we wouldn't have 

18 the present-day -- let me read something out of 

19 our preamble.

20 "That there is no truth more obvious than 

21 without coal, there could not have been a more 

22 marvelous social and industrial progress as 

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1 marked present-day civilization."

2 Gentlemen, we have the most abundant 

3 resource in coal here in these United States like 

4 oil is to Saudi Arabia. Medicine, fuel oil --

5 over in Africa, they're making fuel to fly planes 

6 with out of coal oil. The Germans did it during 

7 World War II. And here we are, we can make a 

8 bomb, an atomic bomb, a hydrogen bomb in less 

9 than three years, to win the war. And coal had 

10 an integral part in that.

11 And now we're going to walk away from it. 

12 And I know you say, "Well, we're not going to 

13 walk away from it." But the adverse effects, the 

14 talent, the seasoned miners that it takes -- you 

15 know, Truman tried to mine the coal with the 

16 National Guard in 1947. That brought rise to a 

17 contract signed between the government and John 

18 L. Lewis that gave us health care from cradle to 

19 grave.

20 They couldn't do it. And if we lose that 

21 technique and that technology, it's going to be 

22 devastating. We're going to have to come back to 

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1 coal. And it may be after this administration. 

2 Germany tried it. As we speak, they tried wind 

3 and solar. They're building 23 new coal-fired 

4 plants.

5 This is not a United States problem. 

6 It's a global issue. You're not going to get the 

7 Japanese, you're not going to get the Chinese, 

8 you're not going to get the India or any of the 

9 Third World nations, much less Russia. EPA don't 

10 have any authority to ensure that they're 

11 emitting the standard of carbon that we are.

12 And as you know, carbon released anywhere 

13 is a problem everywhere. And when you cut the 

14 lights off on some of these coal miners that live 

15 in the rural areas, they're going to burn tires 

16 to keep warm. They will do whatever it takes to 

17 feed their family. And you're disrupting a way 

18 of life.

19 In Alabama, we've got the deepest coal 

20 mines, gassiest coal mines on the northern 

21 continent. And guess what? Coal miners love 

22 their job. They -- I've been in it since 1975. 

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1 I've been with the international union since 

2 1985. And I wouldn't do anything else.

3 So I submit to you that while they're 

4 building 1,200 coal-fired plants to replace the 

5 300 that we're shutting down, all we're doing is 

6 outsourcing jobs, cheap energy, and carbon. 

7 Because the carbon released will be greater than 

8 what we release with these 300.

9 TVA shut down some 42 coal-fired plants, 

10 reassembled. And you talk about environmental 

11 disaster? If you don't know what fracking is, 

12 fracking is probably more -- it's more dangerous 

13 to this environment than coal emissions could 

14 ever be.

15 Moreover, they've found that if you 

16 granulate coal, inject it with pure oxygen, you 

17 can get a greater burn. Let's invest in America. 

18 Let's invest in these jobs. Or we may not have 

19 an immigration problem, because Americans will be 

20 going overseas to find a job, be working for 

21 fish-heads and rice. But it's going to be a 

22 sight.

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1 Thank you for your time. And I would 

2 appreciate more hearings. Have them in the coal 

3 fields so you can look these coal miners in the 

4 eye. 

5 Thank you.

6 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Dewberry. 

7 Thank you for your testimony.

8 [Applause.]

9 MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Cagle, if you could 

10 just state and spell your name for the court 

11 reporter, and then begin your testimony.

12 MR. CAGLE: Okay. My name is Dwight 

13 Cagle, from D-w-i-g-h-t- C-a-g-l-e, from Bremen, 

14 Alabama.

15 I also work in the mines. I work at Jim 

16 Walter Resources, number seven mine, which my 

17 Local is 2397 out of District 20. The mines is 

18 in Tuscaloosa, which we employ over 1,200 people 

19 there that are dependent on this way of life to 

20 work.

21 I have worked for 40 years with Jim 

22 Walter Resources, underground electrician. Also, 

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1 just like Mr. Rigsby, I've served with the -- got 

2 drafted in the U.S. Marine Corps, served 1969 to 

3 1971. Also, when I got out of the Marine Corps, 

4 honorably, I joined the Army Reserves, served in 

5 it for three years, plus worked in the mines. So 

6 this is enough about me.

7 What are we going to do about these young 

8 people that's in the mines now that depends on 

9 this way of life? Went to college, got their 

10 degree in engineering, mining engineering? What 

11 are we going to do about this? These rules will 

12 take away their futures. Like I said, I was 

13 close to my retirement now.

14 I've just turned 65 years old. But I'm 

15 scared to retire. Where's my health care? 

16 Where's my retirement going to be at? With this, 

17 all this money comes in from these other mines 

18 being paid in for this. And, you know, scared to 

19 retire. Like I said, health care, supposed to 

20 have my veteran benefits, but we know where we 

21 are on the veterans right now. So it's down the 

22 road, too.

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1 But we are going on. We got to tell 

2 these young miners back at the mines they going 

3 to be asking the question, "What are we going to 

4 do? What are we going to do? The mine's shut 

5 down." And you know, they invested a lot of 

6 money going to school to be a miner, coal miner.

7 The elderly? What are we going to do 

8 about their -- they're on fixed incomes. The 

9 retirees, their power bills, the gas bills? 

10 Which gas bill has already tripled. They want to 

11 convert these power plants over to gas. You 

12 can't afford the gas bill, especially living out 

13 in the country. You cannot afford it. Just last 

14 winter, it tripled.

15 And the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, they 

16 found about the consumers would pay nearly $290 

17 billion more for electric bill in the next 15 

18 years under this plan. So what are we going to 

19 do to help these people?

20 Thank you.

21 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Cagle.

22 Are there any questions for Mr. Dewberry 

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1 or Mr. Cagle?

2 [No audible response.] 

3 MR. THOMPSON: Gentlemen, again, thank 

4 you very much for your testimony. Thank you.

5 [Pause.]

6 MR. THOMPSON: Our next speakers are 

7 Thomas Wilson and Rickey Kornegay.

8 [Pause.]

9 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning, gentlemen.

10 [Chorus of "Good morning."] 

11 MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for joining us.

12 I'd like to begin with testimony from Mr. 

13 Wilson. So if you could state and spell your 

14 name for the court reporter, and then you can 

15 begin with your testimony, sir.

16 MR. WILSON: Thank you.

17 MR. THOMPSON: You're welcome.

18 MR. WILSON: My name is Thomas F. Wilson. 

19 T-h-o-m-a-s F. W-i-l-s-o-n.

20 I live in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. I'm a 

21 59-and-a-half-year-old proud coal miner, also a 

22 coal miner inspector.

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1 I've been mining for 38 years of my life. 

2 I rise in opposition to this standard for many 

3 reasons, including the following:

4 Number one, I've heard much testimony 

5 concerning past historical mining problems. We 

6 heard testimony yesterday about reclamation 

7 problems, conditions that existed pre8 regulations. Much of the testimony was relying 

9 on that past history versus current-day facts.

10 Throughout those 38 years of mining, the 

11 majority of that has been inspecting mines. I'm 

12 proud to say that the conditions of our mines, 

13 our compliance records have continued to 

14 progressively improve. Mines that were once 

15 dangerous are now achieving safety records clear 

16 across this land.

17 Number two. Our nation and citizens 

18 realize that this standard will not improve the 

19 global warming, simply because EPA has once again 

20 failed to present a global answer. I remember 

21 years past when we testified and discussed this 

22 exact same issue, a United States solution to a 

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1 global problem, with everybody recognizing that 

2 it was not going to have the desired effect.

3 Number three. I heard much testimony 

4 yesterday representing -- and I quote -- "those

5 of faith." I'm also God's man. I love my Lord 

6 Jesus Christ. And I can tell you that at least 

7 two services I've been in in the month of July, 

8 the pastors have clearly not representing what 

9 those that spoke yesterday was representing. 

10 They was about the misdirection that this is 

11 going to have on all of our communities and on 

12 our people.

13 Number four. I'm just two years away 

14 from enjoying the benefits of 40 years of labor, 

15 including good health care and two pension plans. 

16 And without a doubt, if this goes into effect, 

17 all of that is in danger and will be wiped out --

18 a lifetime of work towards benefits that's now 

19 going to be unachievable.

20 Number five. The immediate job loss for 

21 miners, equipment manufacturers, truckers, 

22 railroad workers, utility workers, vendors, and 

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1 other related workers.

2 Number six. Let there be no mistake: 

3 When the rule is fully implemented, over 64,000 

4 jobs in the coal mining, utility, and railroad 

5 industries will be gone forever. But that is 

6 only the beginning of the devastation. When you 

7 add the jobs that depend on mining to survive --

8 railroads, truckers, equipment, manufacturers, 

9 engineers, and others -- more than 208,000 

10 workers and their families will be affected.

11 This job-killing policy will reach well 

12 beyond the coal fields and cripple manufacturers 

13 across the nation.

14 A July 24th article in the news stream 

15 stated that more than 17,000 coal jobs lost since 

16 2011. I've seen some of those communities. 

17 Those communities turned into ghost towns. Those 

18 communities are now full -- where they was once 

19 good jobs, those communities are now full of 

20 poverty, crime, drug abuse, and just no hope.

21 We have beautiful communities across this 

22 land. And I pray that we don't destroy more of 

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1 them. 

2 Thank you.

3 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Wilson. 

4 Thank you for your testimony.

5 If you could please state your name and 

6 spell it for the court reporter, and then you can 

7 begin with your testimony, as well.

8 MR. KORNEGAY: Okay. My name is Rickey 

9 Kornegay. R-i-c-k-e-y K-o-r-n-e-g-a-y.

10 As Mr. Wilson stated, I also rise against 

11 this rule. This past January, I retired from the 

12 coal mines after working 43 years in the mines. 

13 But the majority of that time of my life's 

14 employed Jim Walter Resources at the number 4 

15 mine. Also, that same period of time, I have 

16 been a member of the United Mine Workers of 

17 America, and currently I serve as Financial 

18 Secretary of Local 2245.

19 I am also Mayor of the Town of Woodstock, 

20 Alabama, where I have served as mayor for the 

21 past 14 years. And before that was a council 

22 member since we incorporated in 1996.

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1 I would like to thank you for the 

2 opportunity to address this panel on the new EPA

3 Clean Power Plan released June 2nd, 2014. I do 

4 not understand how can a rule that affects scores 

5 of workers can become law without a vote in 

6 Congress or the agency that is adopting the 

7 policy ever understand the damage they do to real 

8 people and real families.

9 These hearings are being held in Atlanta, 

10 Denver, Washington, D.C., and Pittsburgh. With 

11 the exception of Pittsburgh, none of these 

12 hearings are near any coal fields that this plan 

13 will devastate in the loss of jobs and the impact 

14 on the local economies.

15 I sincerely request that you not stop 

16 here, but conduct more hearings for the people 

17 who will be most adversely impacted where this 

18 rule live -- Morgantown and Berkeley, West 

19 Virginia; Washington, Pennsylvania; Henderson, 

20 Kentucky; Price, Utah; and my area in the Jasper, 

21 Alabama, area.

22 I guess you wonder how this would affect 

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1 me as a retiree. As I said before, I worked 43 

2 years to earn my pension and health care. This 

3 rule would do away with mining jobs, which could 

4 affect the retirement that I worked 43 years to 

5 earn. Destroying large portions of the coal 

6 industry can also destroy my future.

7 I'm referring to the destruction of the 

8 United Mine Workers of America health and 

9 retirement funds. This fund currently pays 

10 pension and health care for nearly 100,000 

11 retired coal miners, their families, and widows. 

12 There are also tens of thousands of working 

13 miners who are carrying on these earned benefits 

14 when their working lives in the mines are done.

15 When you implement this policy, which EPA 

16 acknowledges will close down a significant 

17 portion of the coal industry in this country, you 

18 eliminate the companies which we rely on to fund 

19 continuing benefits. Without these employers, 

20 there are no miners and there's no one to pay 

21 into the funds. It will only be a matter of time 

22 before the money runs out and the pension and 

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1 health care of all of those who worked so hard to 

2 secure them are left without any retirement 

3 security.

4 One of these will be my 85-year-old 

5 father, who worked 34 years in the mines and 

6 enjoyed the pension and health care for these 34 

7 years that he worked.

8 The stated goal, as I understand it, is 

9 to reduce carbon dioxide emissions released into 

10 the atmosphere in the United States by 30 

11 percent. That reduction is 30 percent below 2005 

12 levels. Understanding, of course, that the total 

13 emissions of all types emitted by coal-fired 

14 generating stations have already been 

15 significantly reduced over the past several 

16 decades.

17 Newspapers and other publications, 

18 including the Guardian, New York Times, 

19 Environment and Climate Reviews, World Resource 

20 Institute, and others have identified 59 

21 countries across the globe that are planning to 

22 build 1,200 coal-fired power plants, constructing 

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1 these plants at a rate of four per week. India 

2 and China are scheduled to build 118 of these 

3 coal-fired stations over the next 15 years.

4 This will increase coal-fired electricity 

5 generation in China by 50 percent in that time. 

6 China, who according to Environmental and Climate 

7 News, does not have any pollution control devices 

8 on 30 percent of their current generating 

9 stations, and do not use the scrubbing equipment

10 of much of the 70 percent, in order to keep 

11 electric prices low.

12 These are countries you intend to 

13 influence with this misguided policy. So, 

14 whether we consider these other nations friend or 

15 foe, they're all moving in the absolute opposite 

16 direction in regard to their own future power 

17 needs.

18 Instead of encouraging and investing in 

19 new technology, like carbon capture and 

20 sequestration and other clean-coal technology at 

21 home, the EPA is content to shut our industrials 

22 across the nation by implementing a policy that's 

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1 simply doomed to fail.

2 Unfortunately, that failure comes at an 

3 extreme cost to those working in coal and coal4 related industries. Once again, we are moving 

5 ahead with policies that will enrich other 

6 countries at the expense of our own people. This 

7 is not a bold policy; it's a sellout.

8 As I stated at the start that I am the 

9 Mayor of the Town of Woodstock, we're always 

10 trying to recruit businesses and jobs for our 

11 area. The first questions are about utilities, 

12 water, sewer, and power rates. This plan will 

13 raise the price of electricity rates by making it 

14 harder to recruit businesses and jobs for our 

15 area in Alabama, which has some of the lowest 

16 rates in the nation.

17 MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Kornegay, may I ask 

18 for your final thoughts? Your five minutes have 

19 expired.

20 MR. KORNEGAY: Okay. Just that it will 

21 affect my town as far as the income when you do 

22 away with these jobs also, in that area. I 

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1 would, with respect, request that you reconsider 

2 this rule before putting this plan into effect.

3 Thank you very much.

4 MR. THOMPSON: Oh, you're quite welcome. 

5 And I'd also like to encourage both of you to 

6 submit written comments as well. I noticed that 

7 there was probably a lot that you didn't get to. 

8 And we'd like to certainly hear it and read it.

9 MR. KORNEGAY: Okay. Thank you.

10 MR. THOMPSON: But before you go -- yes, 

11 sure. You're welcome.

12 Are there any questions for these two 

13 gentlemen?

14 [No audible response.] 

15 MR. THOMPSON: Well, again, thank you 

16 very much for your time today.

17 [Pause.]

18 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Our next speakers 

19 are Bob Wise and Casey Shelton.

20 [Pause.]

21 MR. WISE: How ya'll doing?

22 MR. THOMPSON: Hey, doing great. How you 

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1 gentlemen doing this morning?

2 [Chorus of "Fine."]

3 MR. THOMPSON: I'd like to begin with Mr. 

4 Wise. And if you'll state and spell your name 

5 for the court reporter, sir, and then you can 

6 begin with your testimony.

7 MR. WISE: My name is Earl Bob Wise. 

8 Earl, E-a-r-l, Bob, B-o-b, Wise, W-i-s-e.

9 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, sir. Please 

10 begin.

11 MR. WISE: Before I start, let me say 

12 this. I've got hearing aids in. If I'm talking 

13 too loud, tell me. I'll take -- if people can't 

14 hear me, because I don't know, with the hearing 

15 aids, just what is -- how loud I am.

16 MR. THOMPSON: Sure. Yes, sir.

17 MR. WISE: Good morning.

18 MR. THOMPSON: Good morning.

19 MR. WISE: I'm a retired miner and a 

20 member of the United Mine Workers of America, 

21 Local 8460. I worked years in the mines, and 

22 I've been retired for years. I currently receive 

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1 a pension and health care benefits from the UMWA 

2 in health and retirement funds, benefits that I 

3 earned through the years for hard work in the 

4 coal industry.

5 I think it is very important for everyone 

6 here to understand that the pension and health 

7 care benefits I receive are the result of years 

8 of sacrifice. They are the promise in the 

9 collective bargaining agreement between the UMWA 

10 and the coal operators to provide economic 

11 security and health benefits to older miners when 

12 we retire from the industry.

13 Whether you know it or not, the policy 

14 that the EPA is proposing here, when fully 

15 implemented, will put this hard-earned benefit at 

16 serious risk.

17 Looking at this from my point of view, 

18 your hope that this policy will eliminate a 

19 global problem is uncertain at best. However, 

20 the rush to apply this risky policy, which 

21 focuses almost exclusively on the coal industry, 

22 will make it uncertain that I will receive the 

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1 pension and health benefits that I was promised 

2 and that I risked my life, health every single 

3 day to earn.

4 I believe the situation that retired coal 

5 miners and their families face because of this 

6 policy is dangerous.

7 The problem should be easy for everyone 

8 here to understand. It is about keeping what you 

9 have worked a lifetime to achieve. I am sure 

10 that each of you look forward to the day when you 

11 can retire and continue to live securely because 

12 of the retirement promises that were made to you 

13 in return for your hard work from the government.

14 I, for one, sincerely hope that these 

15 days arrive for you when you choose to leave your 

16 profession. This is all that I am asking for. 

17 It is all that my brothers and sisters, who have 

18 given the best years of their lives to their 

19 profession, are looking to receive.

20 We have earned the right to expect 

21 security in our retirement. We have secured 

22 these rights through hard work, sacrifice, and 

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1 many years of collective bargaining agreement. 

2 But if the agency chooses to adopt this 

3 questionable policy, and it destroys a large 

4 proportion of the coal industry, it can also 

5 destroy my future.

6 In closing, I would like to thank you for 

7 your time and ask that you look very closely at 

8 the consequences of your actions here today.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Wise, for 

11 your testimony.

12 Mr. Shelton.

13 MR. SHELTON: My name is Casey Shelton, 

14 C-a-s-e-y S-h-e-l-t-o-n. I am the Business 

15 Manager of the International Brotherhood of 

16 Electrical Workers, System Council U19 in 

17 Alabama. I represent nine local unions that work 

18 in generating plants in hydro, nuclear, and also 

19 fossils.

20 And I also serve as President of the 

21 Alabama State Electrical Workers Association that 

22 represents about 7,000 workers in the whole, all 

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1 aspects of the electrical industry in Alabama. 

2 And today I'm here to speak for those 

3 people, and am also here in support of our 

4 brothers United Mine Workers.

5 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. 

6 MR. SHELTON: I've got to thank ya'll 

7 briefly. Ya'll sit and listened for two days and 

8 have been very attentive. And I appreciate that. 

9 And I know it's a tough task, and thank you for 

10 that.

11 But I've heard a lot of different 

12 opinions, and I always try to respect different 

13 opinions, even though sometimes I don't agree 

14 with them. I've heard a lot of those. And kind 

15 of taking from that yesterday, and some today, I 

16 think there's a lot of myth out there. And maybe 

17 it's nobody's fault. Maybe it hasn't been 

18 explained well to people.

19 But I want to talk about some of the 

20 capacity of these coal plants and what they 

21 provide us. You know, our way of life and 

22 everything means we count on from day to day when 

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1 it comes to electricity.

2 When you look at peak load, you hear a 

3 lot of people talk about "peak" in electrical 

4 industry and generating plants and such as that. 

5 And I'll use a good example. In the summertime, 

6 you get to a certain point where air conditioning 

7 units will only do a certain amount. If it's 100 

8 degrees, you're only going to get it so cool.

9 Well, when you look in the wintertime, 

10 when we got into this polar vortex, they called 

11 it, which my 80-year-old mother would call it "a 

12 cold spell," but they name it today "polar 

13 vortex" -- but when we got in demand like that, 

14 you're going to use heat. You're going to run 

15 off heat strips. And people are going to stay 

16 warm. And that peak just keeps going up and up 

17 and up and up and up.

18 And the entire system throughout the 

19 United States last winter was just on the ragged 

20 edge of -- I mean, they were looking at shedding 

21 load, which means dropping customers, both 

22 industrial customers, you know, communities, 

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1 neighborhoods. That's where we're at today, 

2 before all the impacts of these rules.

3 You look at what I call "throwing a chain 

4 on a gate" of a fossil plant, where the workers 

5 that I represent are there. You can't get in a 

6 bind and just say, "Hey, let's unlock the gate 

7 and cut this thing back on." You can't -- you 

8 can't do that. So I think that example we had 

9 this winter was just a good example of actually 

10 where we're at. And I think there's a lot of 

11 confusion on capacity.

12 You talk about reliability to customers. 

13 You know, in the electrical industry, that's a 

14 big thing. Lights go out; people expect them to 

15 come back on. We do everything from heat our 

16 homes, cool our homes, charge our cell phones. 

17 And customers expect that.

18 We're afraid some of these rule changes 

19 are going to affect that. And you look at some 

20 of these communities that have these generating, 

21 these fossil plants in it. I represent one in 

22 Green County, Alabama, poverty-stricken area. 

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1 Sixty percent of their tax base comes from that 

2 generating plant in that area. If that plant was 

3 to close, that community would, as we know it, 

4 would absolutely just die.

5 The effects on these jobs and the 

6 community and economic impact is a big, large 

7 ripple effect. You've heard from the coal 

8 miners. And it's people that transport coal. 

9 It's people working in these plants.

10 And I represent these people that I say 

11 actually produce the electricity. They are 

12 actually the hands-on people. And they're good 

13 God-fearing people that work in these places. 

14 These communities are built around these wages 

15 that they make. People come in, do maintenance 

16 on these plants. The economy just cannot 

17 absolutely, and the communities cannot handle 

18 losing these plants.

19 I hear a lot of people talk about jobs 

20 really doesn't matter. Well, I think to a lot of 

21 the people that's in this room today, those jobs 

22 do matter, the important, important jobs in our 

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1 industry.

2 I'd like to close by telling you this. I 

3 respect your opinions, and we know that the 

4 decisions you hold will affect us for years to 

5 come. But please keep in mind this capacity 

6 issue. If we don't, we could possibly be what I 

7 think will actually -- what we need to get the 

8 public's attention, what it's going to take is 

9 when we're at home sitting in the dark because of 

10 these rules.

11 And I ask you, one day, remember the old 

12 boy that was from Alabama that talked in the EPA 

13 hearings. We come very close this winter, and 

14 it's going to happen. It's going to happen. So 

15 I ask you to take that into consideration in the 

16 decisions you make.

17 Again, thank you for letting me speak. I 

18 want you to know that we stand beside others who 

19 are calling for the total repeal of these rules. 

20 The economy cannot afford this. The communities 

21 cannot afford it, and the workers can't afford 

22 it. 

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1 Thank you very much.

2 [Applause.]

3 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Shelton.

4 And thank you, Mr. Wise, as well.

5 Before you guys leave, I want to turn to 

6 my colleagues and see if they have any questions 

7 for you.

8 [Pause.]

9 MR. THOMPSON: Well, again, gentlemen, I 

10 can't thank you enough for your testimony today.

11 MR. SHELTON: Thank you very much. Thank 

12 you for having us.

13 MR. HUTSON: I was just going to say I 

14 would definitely encourage you to submit 

15 additional comments, especially issues associated 

16 with capacity. You brought that up.

17 MR. SHELTON: Yes, sir.

18 [Cross-talk.]

19 MR. SHELTON: We sure will. Be glad to. 

20 Thank ya'll.

21 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you.

22 Okay. At this time, we're going to break 

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1 for lunch. And I guess we'll reconvene here at 

2 1:00 p.m. So, back in this room at 1:00 p.m. 

3 And thank you all for participating and for your 

4 testimony today.

5 [Recess taken from 11:51 to 1:05 p.m.]

6 AFTERNOON SESSION

7 PANEL NUMBER 2

8 MR. HARVEY: Is August Preschle or 

9 Vincent Hall here? Mr. Hall. So we'll get 

10 started in a second. I might wait for a minute 

11 to see if Mr. Hall arrives. But not much more.

12 [Pause.]

13 MR. HARVEY: Good afternoon. My name is 

14 Reid Harvey. I'm the Division Director of EPA's 

15 Clean Air Markets Division in the Office of Air 

16 and Radiation. I'm chairing today's hearing, and 

17 I wanted to thank you for coming today.

18 Joining me on the panel, from left to 

19 right, on my far left here Darryl Weatherhead, 

20 who is the Managing Economist for this rule; and 

21 Carol Kemker, who is the Region for Air Division 

22 Deputy Director.

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1 So we're here today to listen to your 

2 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

3 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

4 of these proposed rules on June 2nd of this year. 

5 As you may know, power plants are the largest 

6 source of CO2 emissions in the United States, 

7 which account for about a third of all domestic 

8 greenhouse gas emissions.

9 So the first of the rules is our proposed 

10 Clean Power Plan for existing power plants. This 

11 proposal consists of two main parts: state12 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

13 power plants; and then guidelines to help states 

14 develop their plans for meeting those goals.

15 The proposal gives states flexibility in 

16 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

17 choose what goes into their plans and show how 

18 they will achieve the needed reductions to meet 

19 their goals by 2030.

20 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

21 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

22 and reconstructed power plants.

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1 This rule would set emissions limits for 

2 two groups of power plants: those that make 

3 physical or operational changes that increase the 

4 plant's maximum achievable hourly rate of 

5 emissions; and those that replace components to 

6 such an extent that the new components exceed 50 

7 percent of the capital costs of an entirely new, 

8 comparable facility.

9 So, if you would like more details on 

10 either of these rules, these proposed rules, 

11 there are fact sheets outside near the 

12 registration desk.

13 Today's hearing is one of four public 

14 hearings across the country this week on the two 

15 proposed rules. We've had tremendous interest in 

16 each of the hearings, and I'd like to thank you 

17 for taking the time out of your day to come join 

18 us today, and we look forward to hearing you 

19 share your comments with us.

20 We do have a lot of people signed up for 

21 both the morning and the afternoon today, and we 

22 want to hear from all of them. So, before we get 

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1 started, I'd like to go through a few 

2 housekeeping items and ground rules that will 

3 make the hearing run smoothly.

4 First, please be sure you have checked in 

5 at the registration desk even if you are not 

6 planning to speak today. And if you have signed 

7 up to speak, online or by phone, but haven't told 

8 us that you're here, please step out to the 

9 registration desk and let the EPA staff know that 

10 you have arrived.

11 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

12 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

13 or Room B. And this is Room B. So, make sure 

14 you're in the right room. And if not, this is a 

15 good time to switch.

16 So, this is how today's hearing will 

17 work. I will call the speakers up in pairs. If 

18 only one of the two are here, I'll just ask the 

19 one to join us. When your name is called, please 

20 come to the table over here. And then, when I 

21 call on you to speak, please state your name and 

22 spell it for the court reporter. Your comments 

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1 will be transcribed and included in the record of 

2 comments for the proposed rule. 

3 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

4 give comments. We have a light down here to help 

5 you know how much time you have left to speak. 

6 So when the light turns from green to yellow, 

7 that you means you have one minute remaining. 

8 When it turns red, that's a signal to wrap up. 

9 And it will flash red and beep when you have 

10 spoken for five minutes, and that's time to stop.

11 So when you're finished speaking, please 

12 remain at the table until the person next to you 

13 has completed his or her testimony.

14 And we're here to listen to you today. 

15 However, it's possible that a panel member may 

16 ask you questions to clarify your comments. So, 

17 then after we've gone through that, the two of 

18 you have spoken, we've asked any clarifying 

19 comments, then I'll call up the next pair of 

20 speakers, and so on.

21 If you've brought written materials, a 

22 written copy of your testimony, please give that 

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1 to the staff at the registration desk before you 

2 leave today so that that can also be entered into 

3 the record.

4 And again, because of the large number of 

5 people who want to speak today, and to be fair to 

6 everyone, we're going to strictly enforce the 

7 five-minute time limit.

8 If you have additional comments that you 

9 would like to make, you can submit them in 

10 writing. And I wanted to sort of close by 

11 assuring you that we will give as much 

12 consideration to the comments we receive in 

13 writing as we do to comments that we receive at 

14 public hearings like this one today. So, if you 

15 have more that you would like to say than you can 

16 get through in five minutes, please submit your 

17 comments and we will review them.

18 There's still plenty of time to get 

19 written comments in. There are comment cards 

20 available at the registration desk. And comments 

21 must be received by October 16th of 2014.

22 We will put any written comments 

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1 submitted today in the official docket for the 

2 proposed rule. And instructions for submitting 

3 written comments in other ways are available at 

4 the table outside near the registration desk.

5 We're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

6 tonight. We've taken our lunch break. We'll 

7 take a dinner break. And so people will have a 

8 chance to get something to eat. The dinner break 

9 is scheduled for five o'clock. We may need to 

10 take occasional short breaks to swap panelists or 

11 to take breaks as needed, and we'll keep you 

12 posted on that as we move through the day.

13 If you have any questions, you should 

14 please see the staff outside at the registration 

15 desk, and someone will try to help you.

16 So, finally, I want to ask that each of 

17 you to be respectful of everyone who speaks 

18 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

19 views in the audience, and we want to hear from 

20 all of you. So we can do that and to be fair to 

21 everyone, we ask that you all listen quietly. 

22 And that means no applause, no audible reaction. 

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1 We want to hear from everyone who has signed up 

2 to speak.

3 So, thank you again for taking the time 

4 today, and let's get started.

5 So again, August Preschle and Vincent 

6 Hall, if you'll join us.

7 I apologize if I pronounced your name 

8 incorrectly.

9 MR. PRESCHLE: That's all right.

10 MR. HARVEY: We'll get the correct 

11 pronunciation in a second. And if we could start 

12 with you, could you pronounce your name and spell 

13 it for the reporter, please?

14 MR. PRESCHLE: Sure. My name is August 

15 Preschle, that's P-r-e-s-c-h-l-e.

16 Good afternoon. I'm here today to speak 

17 for my grandchildren and their generation, who 

18 are too young to speak for themselves. They will 

19 surely benefit or suffer, depending on how strong 

20 the carbon pollution rules are.

21 As a very second distant concern, I worry 

22 about my family's economic wellbeing, as the real 

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1 cost of climate change eats into my fixed 

2 pension. Homeowner's insurance, health care, 

3 food, and homeland security costs are already 

4 increasing and will skyrocket if we do not act 

5 quickly.

6 By way of background, I'm an industrial 

7 engineer educated in business efficiency and 

8 energy conservation. I'm also a certified real 

9 property manager. I was employed by the Port 

10 Authority of New York and New Jersey from 1969 

11 through 2002. Among other things, I did energy 

12 conservation work at major metropolitan airports, 

13 tunnels, bridges, container ports, a rapid 

14 transit system, and the World Trade Center.

15 I learned a lot about electric power and 

16 energy conservation there.

17 In retirement, I have led the 

18 construction of green buildings for Habitat for 

19 Humanity, earned Green Sanctuary Certification 

20 for my church, and attended professional 

21 conferences on wind energy for the Southeast 

22 region.

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1 Based on my professional work, as well as 

2 my retirement activities, I want to tell you a 

3 few important things. First, I want to urge you 

4 not to back off the overall carbon reduction 

5 targets in the draft documents. In fact, you 

6 should increase the targets and advance the 

7 target dates to make up for the years already 

8 lost while the carbon pollution worked its way to 

9 the Supreme Court.

10 Our country is too slow to change because 

11 of federal and state governments that are 

12 dysfunctional and because of some major energy 

13 companies, like Duke Energy, which are entrenched 

14 in the past.

15 Their 20-year integrated resource plan is 

16 black with coal ash and dirty with a 10,000-year 

17 legacy of nuclear waste. It's time for decisive 

18 action now. And our strong country can do it. 

19 But the EPA must hold fast to meaningful targets 

20 for each and every state.

21 Second, there seems to be a technical 

22 error in the draft plan. The EPA estimates that

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1 North Carolina can generate 4.4 percent of their 

2 power from renewable sources by 2021, as I read 

3 it. This is less ambitious than North Carolina's 

4 own statewide renewable energy standard of 

5 generating 12.5 percent by then.

6 The EPA should strengthen the standard to 

7 reflect North Carolina's current goal. More 

8 about that later.

9 Third, there are untapped energy-source 

10 energy savings almost everywhere you look. At 

11 the World Trade Center, we installed more 

12 efficient HVAC and high-voltage power 

13 distribution systems. There and at many other 

14 Port Authority facilities, we changed out old 

15 incandescent lights, installed modern tunnel 

16 vehicle ventilation systems, automated building 

17 management systems, automated toll collection 

18 systems and a cogeneration plant.

19 There are only some of the significant 

20 changes we made to improve customer service and 

21 to reduce energy consumption on a cost-effective 

22 basis. And I'm proud to say the new World Trade 

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1 Center is being built to state-of-the-art 

2 sustainability standards.

3 At Habitat for Humanity, in Forsythe 

4 County in North Carolina, every one of the more 

5 than 200 affordable homes built in the past few 

6 years have met or exceeded green building 

7 standards -- affordable homes. At the same time, 

8 the residential and commercial building industry 

9 associations in North Carolina fight to roll back 

10 those standards. We must be strong.

11 Fourth, I want to assure you that 

12 dramatic energy savings can be achieved by the 

13 private sector as well. This is being done by 

14 progressive for-profit companies across the 

15 nation. One place that I recommend you look is 

16 at Ceres, that's spelled C-e-r-e-s, which is a 

17 nonprofit organization whose mission is to 

18 mobilize investor businesses.

19 Companies like Allstate, Bank of America, 

20 many others are already working to lead the pack 

21 and set examples.

22 Finally, I want to remind you that Europe 

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1 is well ahead of us. And China is moving up 

2 fast. Renewable energy accounted for 

3 approximately 31 percent of Germany's electricity 

4 generation in the first half of the year of 2014.

5 Let me repeat that.

6 MR. HARVEY: Yeah. We do need to wrap 

7 up.

8 MR. PRESCHLE: Okay. Thirty-one percent 

9 of Germany's electricity. Their economy is 

10 strong, et cetera.

11 So, let's get on with building a strong 

12 green economy and jobs here in America, while 

13 protecting displaced workers and their families 

14 and their communities. 

15 Thank you.

16 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

17 We'll hear from our next speaker, then 

18 we'll go to clarifying questions.

19 So, I'm not sure if you heard my 

20 introductions. But if you could spell your name 

21 for the reporter, and then we'll start the light.

22 MR. HALL: Okay. Hello. My name is 

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1 Vincent, V-i-n-c-e-n-t, Hall, H-a-l-l.

2 Today we are at the crossroads of making 

3 a positive difference that is long-lasting. This 

4 difference will have an impact on people from all 

5 socioeconomic backgrounds. However, if we 

6 continue to ignore carbon pollution that's still 

7 on this outdated and destructive path, that 

8 impact will be greater on the poor and working9 class poor.

10 I'm sure many of the working-class poor, 

11 defined as workers whose income falls below the 

12 poverty line -- as an example, a family of four 

13 living off less than $24,000 per year -- would 

14 like to be here today to voice their opinion. 

15 Unfortunately, they do not have the luxury of 

16 taking a day off from one of their two jobs. 

17 Oftentimes, two jobs are required to make ends 

18 meet.

19 To put this in perspective, we must 

20 understand the gap between the have's and the 

21 have-not's is real and much deeper and wider than 

22 the climate policymakers can imagine. Because 

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1 the poor don't have a voice at the decision2 making table, their voices are never heard. 

3 Again, they are impacted the most.

4 The single mothers, single fathers, and 

5 that family of four whose children suffer from 

6 asthma and other respiratory illnesses --

7 multiple trips to the emergency room because 

8 their child can't breathe, combined with the high 

9 cost of medications, is a huge financial burden 

10 placed on an already-strained income.

11 The elderly person living on a fixed 

12 income can't afford an increase in his or her 

13 power bill even if it's considered minimum or 

14 below national average. Whether it's $20 or $2, 

15 it negatively impacts the quality of life. By 

16 the way, the clean climate plan will reduce 

17 electricity by 8 percent by 2030. In 16 years, I 

18 hope to benefit from that reduction; maybe even 

19 before.

20 By now you have heard the many statistics 

21 and figures regarding the health issues, the 

22 negative economic impacts carbon pollution has on 

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1 farming communities and the workforce. Dirty air 

2 affects all of us. It doesn't discriminate. We 

3 all pay the price.

4 Clean air is a human right. It can make 

5 a difference between that long -- it can make a 

6 positive difference that is long-lasting by 

7 narrowing that gap between the less-fortunate and 

8 the privileged few.

9 Teddy Roosevelt once said, "In any moment 

10 of decision, the best you can do is the right 

11 thing. The next-best thing is the wrong thing. 

12 And the worst thing you can do is nothing." We 

13 all hope you do the right thing. Thank you.

14 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

15 Do we have questions?

16 MS. KEMKER: I have a clarifying question 

17 for Mr. Preschle. You referred to a North 

18 Carolina plan. Could you tell me what plan that 

19 is?

20 MR. PRESCHLE: Yeah. A number of years 

21 ago, perhaps around 2008, North Carolina 

22 legislature enacted laws with what they call 

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1 renewable portfolio standards, or renewable 

2 energy reps, briefly. And those reps have 

3 graduated requirements for energy savings through 

4 2020.

5 And they're embattled every year by the 

6 legislature, but as long as they stick they are 

7 stronger than my understanding of your, the 

8 current regulations in the draft rule.

9 MS. KEMKER: Thank you.

10 MR. PRESCHLE: Okay.

11 [Pause.]

12 MR. HARVEY: Our next two speakers, if 

13 you'll come forward, are Jordan Thrasher and Beth 

14 Bond.

15 [Pause.]

16 MR. HARVEY: Our timekeeper had to step 

17 out for a minute, so we're trying to teach 

18 ourselves how to use the timer. We may have to 

19 revert to --

20 MS. BOND: May I tell a funny story then 

21 while we're waiting?

22 MR. HARVEY: Let's wait a second here.

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1 MS. BOND: Okay. 

2 MR. HARVEY: We can also use alternative 

3 technology.

4 MS. KEMKER: I have alternative 

5 technology. Yeah, we're going to use alternative 

6 technology.

7 MR. HARVEY: Okay. What we'll do, since 

8 we don't have our timekeeper, is we'll tell you 

9 when your time starts. We'll tell you when you 

10 have a minute left. And then we'll tell you when 

11 your time is up.

12 MS. BOND: I can do that.

13 MR. HARVEY: If you'll handle that.

14 So, who would like to begin? Mr. 

15 Thrasher or Ms. Bond?

16 MS. BOND: I'll start.

17 MR. HARVEY: Okay. If you could start by 

18 spelling your name for the reporter, recorder, 

19 and then we'll start the time after that.

20 MS. BOND: So, my name is Beth Bond, B-e21 t-h B-o-n-d. And I have lots of sympathy for you 

22 because I've watched you have to record all those 

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1 names.

2 I am representing many, many hats today 

3 as I come forward to speak. I was originally 

4 scheduled to speak, and I felt like I didn't have 

5 anything to add to the conversation, and so I 

6 gave my slot away. So I appreciate the EPA 

7 working with me to allow me to speak next to my 

8 friend, Jordan Thrasher, which is what's sort of 

9 ironic, because I said, "Wouldn't it be great if 

10 we could speak together?" And now we are.

11 So, I own the largest online news site 

12 for sustainable business and environmental policy 

13 news in the Southeast. It's called Southeast 

14 Green. We are an organization that's been around 

15 for six years.

16 But I'm also an advocate at heart. So I 

17 have done a lot of work in the Atlanta community 

18 in regards to volunteering, including my most 

19 proudest title, which is a board member for 

20 Georgia Interfaith Power and Light, which I have 

21 just finished a three-year board service term 

22 with.

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1 The reason I felt compelled to talk today 

2 was because, after listening to testimony all day 

3 yesterday afternoon and this morning, there's two 

4 places that I think that we're sort of -- there's 

5 a gap in what we've been discussing.

6 The first gap is waste. And as a person 

7 of faith and a person who believes in 

8 environmental stewardship and community 

9 stewardship, that waste that we have not been 

10 talking about today is very important to be 

11 covered. 

12 What we don't think about as Americans as 

13 we hear about production of electricity is how 

14 much inherent waste is in the system. Whether 

15 it's from energy efficiency in buildings or 

16 whether it's talking about generation of 

17 electricity on the grid, there is so much waste 

18 that we don't consider.

19 There -- also, I just want to say really 

20 quickly that anything I cite I will be submitting 

21 written comments, and I will provide the citation 

22 links in the comments.

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1 There is plenty of stuff on the Internet 

2 talking about the substation transmission of 5 

3 percent loss from line to line. But 

4 unfortunately, what they don't talk about is the 

5 line loss we have from generating electricity 

6 from the substation to the end user, which has 

7 been cited as high as 40 percent.

8 So we have to produce 40 percent more 

9 electricity to make up for this line loss. And I 

10 don't think that a lot of American citizens 

11 recognize that we are doing this much waste. 

12 That is why distributed generation is so much 

13 more powerful and helps us in regards to meeting 

14 our targets that have been discussed.

15 Also, there is so much waste as just 

16 general Americans, which is why the energy 

17 efficiency side of this discussion is so 

18 important. I'm going to tell one of my favorite 

19 stories that we heard from GIPL, which is Georgia 

20 Interfaith Power and Light.

21 GIPL does church audits and does energy 

22 efficiency audits. And there was a church, that 

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1 will remain nameless to protect the innocent, 

2 that saved $35,000 by making one simple change in 

3 their operation.

4 They had a building, and on Wednesday 

5 mornings, there was a group of ladies of a 

6 particular age who appreciate their air 

7 conditioning, which I certainly resonate with. 

8 And they were meeting on Wednesdays, and they 

9 were running the building all 24/7 for this one 

10 meeting on Wednesday mornings.

11 And so when GIPL went in and did the 

12 audit, we said, "How about moving the ladies to 

13 another building?" And sure enough, they moved 

14 the ladies to the other building, and that church 

15 saw $35,000 a year in savings in their operation.

16 Well, many people of faith forget -- to 

17 connect this -- is that when you're spending 

18 money on electricity, you are not spending money 

19 on missions. So, as a person of faith, it's very 

20 important, through some simple education and 

21 steps, that we educate churches about energy 

22 efficiency.

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1 But I am one person. Even with the 

2 website, I'm still one person. So it's important 

3 for the EPA to make sure that we have these 

4 standards, not to punish or to penalize the coal 

5 producers, who will still have jobs, contrary to 

6 some of the facts that have been stated here on 

7 the stage over the past two days, but so that we 

8 can reduce our waste.

9 If we are a nation of thoughtful, 

10 intelligent, reasonable people, we all understand 

11 that waste is bad whether it's waste in our food 

12 or whether it is waste in our generation of 

13 electricity.

14 So I think it's really important that we 

15 take these renewable standards that are presented 

16 in the plan and the fourth building block, which 

17 is energy efficiency, and make sure that those 

18 protected, and eliminate the waste that we have 

19 in our society in regards to electricity 

20 production, and still forward and grow our 

21 economy to be strong.

22 I finished early. That's a miracle.

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1 MS. KEMKER: You did.

2 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

3 Okay. Mr. Thrasher, again if you could 

4 spell your name, and then we'll start the timer.

5 MR. THRASHER: Good afternoon. My name 

6 is Reverend Jordan Thrasher, J-o-r-d-a-n T-h-r-a7 s-h-e-r. I'm an elder in the United Methodist 

8 Church. I work with Georgia --

9 MR. HARVEY: Could you hold on one 

10 second? 

11 MS. KEMKER: It just decided to -- start 

12 talking.

13 [Laughter.]

14 MR. HARVEY: There we go. Sorry. If you 

15 could begin again.

16 MR. THRASHER: That's fine. Like I said, 

17 I'm an elder in the United Methodist Church. I 

18 work closely with Georgia Interfaith Power and 

19 Light. I also work with the national 

20 organization of the United Methodist Church, 

21 called Caretakers for Creation.

22 At the outset, I want to be clear from my 

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1 testimony that I am in favor of reducing carbon 

2 emissions from power plants, and so I am in favor 

3 of the EPA's carbon reduction standards that are 

4 being proposed.

5 And in a testimony, you're supposed to 

6 tell the truth about what you have seen and know. 

7 So that is my ultimate goal here today. I am 

8 here because I have been asked to bear witness to 

9 my faith, which I believe is intricately and 

10 intimately intertwined with creation.

11 The blight of climate change has affected 

12 us all in extreme weather events, but it 

13 particularly affects the poor with higher rates 

14 of respiratory illness and other diseases because 

15 of their proximity to power plants that spread 

16 carbon into the air.

17 This is a matter of faith to me. When 

18 Jesus was asked by a group of lawyers what the 

19 most important commandment was, he adroitly 

20 answered to love God and to love our neighbor. 

21 And after saying that, one of those lawyers, 

22 always looking for a loophole, because when you 

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1 find the loophole, you find the shortcut from 

2 doing what is right -- one of those lawyers asked 

3 the question, "Who is my neighbor?" And Jesus 

4 tells them the parable of the good Samaritan.

5 I won't go through the whole parable, 

6 I'll skip to the end. But the Samaritan, an 

7 outcast, is called "good" and is the one who is a 

8 neighbor because he sees someone who is poor and 

9 beaten, and he did what he could to help.

10 And those who are supposed to help, those 

11 in the positions of power, must have had a 

12 significant financial stake in the status quo, 

13 because they ignored the poor, beaten man and 

14 walked on by, thinking that was just the cost of 

15 doing business.

16 Our planet is poor and beaten, and the 

17 poor among us continue to be beaten by our 

18 current environmental practices. Kids are 

19 choking on the very air they breathe because of 

20 the pollution that we have put into the air. And 

21 I keep saying "we" because I know I am complicit 

22 in this. I use energy just like everybody else, 

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1 and I try to conserve and not be wasteful. 

2 But this makes me even more motivated to 

3 see large, systematic change that we can do as a 

4 community to care for the poor among us and to 

5 love our God by its primary expression of loving 

6 our neighbor, especially those who can't breathe.

7 I'm called to speak on behalf of the poor 

8 as a preacher and to speak for those who do not 

9 have a voice, whether it's constricted by 

10 economics or by air quality. Because how can 

11 someone talk if they can't breathe?

12 We all are suffering at our inability or 

13 intransience to take effective action following 

14 the very commands of God in caring for creation. 

15 It's been well documented that other countries 

16 have found a way to do this and have been 

17 successful in doing so. Our inability to follow 

18 God in this way reduces our ability to follow 

19 God's command to love our neighbor. 

20 I support these carbon restrictions for 

21 that reason, but also because I am a Methodist. 

22 John Wesley, our founder, found his first mission 

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1 work in going to coal-mining camps and providing 

2 services to them. He established schools for the 

3 children, even learned as much medicine he could 

4 as a preacher, because people were sick from 

5 working there.

6 He also taught that we're constantly 

7 moving forward in our faith to perfection. But 

8 we are not there yet, but by the grace of God, we 

9 will be.

10 This carbon restriction standard is a 

11 giant step toward perfection. I believe it is 

12 going to have the opposite effect that the 

13 naysayers report it is going to have. I believe 

14 that in our State of Georgia, with our 

15 educational system and the fact that we have one 

16 of the best engineering schools in the planet 

17 right down the road, that we will come up with 

18 new and innovative ideas and solutions because we 

19 will have to.

20 We are losing our soul over the 

21 destruction of our planet. And with these 

22 restrictions in place, I believe you see a 

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1 creative and economic boom as a result.

2 Sadly, the urgency of rising oceans or 

3 extinction of species God created, the 

4 proliferation of super-storms, the constriction 

5 of children's and the elderlies' lungs, and the 

6 rising cancer rates have still not yet 

7 necessitated us to take meaningful steps in the 

8 reduction of pollution and the caring for 

9 creation in our country.

10 So it is my hope that this will change 

11 that. And then we will all be able to say, as 

12 the good Samaritan can, "I have loved my 

13 neighbor." And I know that by my being here 

14 today, I am trying to do everything I can for my 

15 neighbor, and particularly my three daughters.

16 Thank you for your time, and thank you 

17 for hearing our testimony.

18 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much, Mr. 

19 Thrasher.

20 Do we have questions?

21 MS. KEMKER: No questions. Thank you.

22 MR. HARVEY: Comments?

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1 [No audible response.] 

2 MR. HARVEY: I'm curious about Georgia 

3 Interfaith Power and Light. How many houses of 

4 worship are involved in that across the state? 

5 Do you know, roughly?

6 MS. BOND: Remember, I'm a board member. 

7 So it is roughly about 600 congregations across 

8 the state.

9 MR. HARVEY: I see.

10 MS. BOND: And they've conducted enough 

11 audits to reduce carbon -- and this is basically 

12 through energy efficiency audits -- by 11 million 

13 pounds in the 10 years of its history.

14 MR. HARVEY: Hm. 

15 MS. BOND: Eleven million tons, sorry --

16 tons.

17 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

18 Other questions from our panelists?

19 [No audible response.] 

20 MR. HARVEY: And we have the next ones. 

21 So, thank you very much. You can step down.

22 Our next speaker is, I want to say Marita 

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1 Noon. We don't have someone paired up. And so, 

2 this is an opportunity for someone to volunteer 

3 if they wish to speak now, to join us at this 

4 time. So if you'd like to join us, please step 

5 up. Is Marita Noon here?

6 MS. NOON: I need another couple of 

7 minutes. So I'd like to speak --

8 MR. HARVEY: You're saying you need more 

9 time?

10 MS. NOON: Yeah.

11 I'd like a couple more minutes. Can I be 

12 next?

13 MR. HARVEY: Sure. I guess.

14 So, I'm going to ask for two volunteers. 

15 Is there someone else who's speaking soon who

16 would like to take advantage of this opportunity 

17 right now?

18 [Pause.]

19 MS. NOON: I'll be right back.

20 MR. HARVEY: Okay.

21 Well, then, why don't we begin with you? 

22 So if you could start by telling us your name and 

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1 spelling it for our court reporter, when you're 

2 ready.

3 MR. PATRICK CAGLE: My name is Patrick 

4 Cagle, P-a-t-r-i-c-k C-a-g-l-e. I'm Executive 

5 Director of JobKeeper Alliance, a nonprofit 

6 partnership between the business and labor 

7 community, whose mission is to support the 

8 creation and protection of quality middle-class 

9 jobs throughout the Southeast.

10 When labor and business stand together on 

11 an issue, it sends a powerful message. Our 

12 message is clear: EPA's proposed rules limiting 

13 carbon are all cost and no benefit. These rules 

14 will cost us a significant number of quality 

15 middle-class jobs, and it will raise the cost of 

16 electricity for families, businesses, and 

17 industrial customers.

18 The American economy is not yet fully 

19 recovered from the worst recession since the 

20 Great Depression. We should be implementing 

21 policies that foster economic growth and job 

22 creation, not new regulations that will make it 

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1 harder for working families to attain middle2 class stability.

3 Quality high-paying coal-mining and 

4 power-generation jobs will be some of the first 

5 jobs lost if the EPA does not modify the proposed 

6 CO2 rules. The United Mine Workers and IBEW 

7 members have explained during their comments that 

8 these are not just jobs. It's the profession 

9 they've invested most, if not all, of their 

10 working lives into.

11 These jobs have allowed them to provide a 

12 stable life for their family, and they cannot be 

13 easily replaced. Unfortunately, energy sector 

14 jobs represent just a small fraction of the jobs 

15 that will be lost or never created if EPA 

16 implements these proposed rules in their current 

17 form.

18 In most Southern states, the 

19 manufacturing sector has been the backbone of our 

20 ongoing economic recovery efforts. The South's 

21 manufacturing renaissance is a result of 

22 affordable and reliable electricity. However, 

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1 the carbon rules proposed by this agency will 

2 raise cost and make our energy grid less 

3 reliable, and are not compatible with the 

4 manufacturing economy our states rely on.

5 In its simplest form, EPA's carbon limits 

6 are a tax on energy that will be added to the 

7 production cost of all American-made goods, 

8 making it even more difficult for domestic 

9 manufacturers to compete in a global economy.

10 Finally, I appreciate the opportunity to 

11 share my concerns with EPA at today's hearing. 

12 But I must express my extreme disappointment that 

13 many of the men and women whose lives and 

14 livelihoods will be most affected by these 

15 proposed regulations did not have an opportunity 

16 to speak at this hearing.

17 Many of the hardworking people I 

18 represent were turned away because all of the 

19 speaking slots had been filled. Many more 

20 workers do the jobs that keep our lights on and 

21 our country moving. They can't take two or three 

22 days off work, drive hundreds of miles just to 

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1 tell you how important their job is to their 

2 family, their community, and everyone else that 

3 expects the lights to come on when they flip a 

4 switch.

5 We believe EPA Region 4 should hold a 

6 hearing in each state they serve. We also urge 

7 the EPA to extend the public comment period and 

8 create additional opportunities for those who 

9 will be the most affected by the proposed carbon 

10 rules to have their voice heard.

11 On behalf of the working men and women 

12 whose livelihoods are on the line, I'm asking EPA 

13 to carefully reconsider the tremendous direct and 

14 indirect economic consequences of this proposed 

15 rule. 

16 Thank you.

17 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Cagle.

18 Could you -- again, I think you had a 

19 brief statement at the beginning about your

20 alliance. Could you explain again who the 

21 members are?

22 MR. PATRICK CAGLE: It's between business 

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1 and labor. We work with the IBEW members, United 

2 Mine Workers, steel workers, and the companies 

3 that those union groups work with.

4 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

5 Any other questions?

6 [No audible response.]

7 MR. HARVEY: Okay. Hearing none, thank 

8 you very much.

9 MR. PATRICK CAGLE: Thank you.

10 [Pause.]

11 [Inaudible interjection.]

12 MR. HARVEY: We will let you know when 

13 your time is up.

14 MS. NOON: Thank you.

15 MR. HARVEY: When you're ready, if you 

16 could spell your name for the court reporter, and 

17 then we'll start the clock.

18 MS. NOON: Thank you. My name is Marita 

19 Noon. That is M-a-r-i-t-a, last name just like 

20 lunchtime, N-o-o-n.

21 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. You can begin.

22 MS. NOON: Thank you. Today I have come 

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1 to address the EPA's proposed rule regarding 

2 carbon emissions from existing power plants. I 

3 speak on behalf of myself and representing 

4 thousands of members and supporters of the two 

5 nonprofit organizations for which I am executive 

6 director. I am also representing the Washington, 

7 D.C.-based group, Committee for a Constructive 

8 Tomorrow, and its 60,000 supporters.

9 I've listened to the well-intentioned 

10 pleas from many who have begged you, the EPA, to 

11 take even stronger action than this plan 

12 proposes. An attorney's testimony yesterday told 

13 about seeing carbon pollution every day from his 

14 36th-floor office a few blocks from here, where 

15 he looks out over a smog-covered city.

16 The passion of these commenters 

17 supersedes their knowledge, as most of the issues 

18 addressed are not something caused by carbon 

19 dioxide, a clear, colorless gas that each of us 

20 breathe out and plants breathe in.

21 Carbon dioxide is a natural and essential 

22 part of the environment with massive, unknown 

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1 quantities of carbon dioxide emitted each year 

2 from natural sources such as volcanoes. Were you 

3 able to eliminate carbon dioxide from every 

4 industrial source in the United States, it would 

5 have virtually no impact on global carbon dioxide 

6 emissions.

7 I understand the concerns over true smog 

8 and pollution. I grew up in Southern California, 

9 graduating from high school in 1976. At that 

10 time, we had made a mess of our environment. We 

11 had polluted the air and water. Cleaning up our 

12 collective act was an important public policy 

13 issue.

14 But that pollution, that smog, has 

15 largely been cleaned up. Utilities have spent 

16 hundreds of billions of dollars on scrubbers and 

17 other highly technical equipment to successfully 

18 remove the vast majority of the particulates. 

19 People often see a billowing white cloud coming 

20 from the stacks at a coal-fueled power plant and 

21 confuse it with pollution, when it is really H2O, 

22 water in the form of steam.

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1 Depending on the time of year or the time 

2 of day, it may be more or less visible. The 

3 weather conditions may make it settle like fog 

4 until the sun burns it off, and this, I believe, 

5 is mistaken for pollution.

6 This rule is not about pollution. It's 

7 about shutting down coal-fueled power plants and 

8 killing jobs and raising electricity rates, both 

9 of which punish people who can least afford it. 

10 But plenty of others have addressed the economic 

11 impact, so I won't take more of my time on that 

12 topic.

13 But I do want to address the 

14 constitutionality of the proposed plan, as it 

15 does exactly what the Supreme Court admonished 

16 the EPA about on June 23rd.

17 Justice Antonin Scalia, for the majority, 

18 wrote this about the Tailoring Rule decision: 

19 "Were we to recognize the authority claimed by 

20 the EPA in the Tailoring Rule, we would deal a 

21 severe blow to the Constitution's separation of 

22 powers . . . The power of executing the laws . . 

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1 . does not include a power to revise clear 

2 statutory terms that turn out not to work in 

3 practice."

4 Yet this is exactly what this proposed 

5 plan will do. Later in the decision, Scalia 

6 says, "When an agency claims to discover in a 

7 long-extant statute an unheralded power to 

8 regulate 'a significant portion of the American 

9 economy' . . . we typically greet its 

10 announcement with a measure of skepticism. We 

11 expect Congress to speak clearly if it wishes to 

12 assign an agency decisions of vast 'economic and 

13 political significance.'"

14 I believe, on these grounds, this plan 

15 must not go forward. It is one more example of 

16 executive overreach. I fear that if it does, 

17 America will pay a dear price.

18 This hearing was scheduled to take place 

19 down the street at the Sam Nunn Federal Center. 

20 However, it was moved due to a power outage. 

21 Note: Business cannot be done without power. If 

22 you were able to move this hearing in a reducedOLENDER REPORTING, INC.

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1 power environment, businesses will move to places 

2 where they have access to energy that is 

3 effective, efficient, and economical. They will 

4 move, as many have already done, to places with 

5 far looser environmental policies, and the 

6 perceived gain will be lost.

7 Thinking that what we do in the United 

8 States will have an a serious impact on global 

9 carbon dioxide emissions is like thinking that 

10 declaring a no-pee section in the swimming pool 

11 will keep the water urine-free.

12 I end with a quote from the smog-viewing 

13 attorney, who closed with, "I am hopeful my new 

14 grandchildren, who will live in the twenty-second 

15 century, will enjoy a world that my grandparents, 

16 born in the nineteenth century, would recognize."

17 If this plan is passed, he may get his 

18 wish. His grandparents' world contained none of 

19 the energy-based modern conveniences or medical 

20 miracles we consider standard and essential 

21 today, let alone those yet to be developed or 

22 discovered by the twenty-second century.

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1 Remember: The countries with the best 

2 human health and the most material wealth are 

3 those with the highest energy consumption. 

4 America needs energy that is abundant, available, 

5 and affordable. 

6 Thank you.

7 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Ms. Noon.

8 Any clarifying questions?

9 MR. WEATHERHEAD: You said you were 

10 executive director of two nonprofits. Did you 

11 say the names of them?

12 MS. NOON: Yes, I edited those to save me 

13 minutes. I am the Executive Director of the 

14 Citizens Alliance for Responsible Energy, and 

15 Energy Makes America Great, Inc. I figured you'd 

16 ask, and then I could get it in.

17 [Laughter.]

18 MR. HARVEY: Are those based here in 

19 Atlanta?

20 MS. NOON: No. They're based in 

21 Albuquerque. But we deal with energy issues 

22 statewide, region-wide, and nationwide.

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1 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. Okay. Thank you 

2 for joining us.

3 MS. NOON: Thank you.

4 [Pause.] 

5 MR. HARVEY: Our next speaker is Randall 

6 Morris.

7 [Pause.]

8 MR. HARVEY: Good day.

9 MR. MORRIS: Good afternoon.

10 MR. HARVEY: If you could spell your name 

11 for the reporter, and then we'll get started.

12 MR. MORRIS: Randall Morris, R-a-n-d-a-l13 l M-o-r-r-i-s.

14 MR. HARVEY: Ready when you are.

15 MR. MORRIS: Thank you for the 

16 opportunity to be here today. My name is Randall 

17 Morris, President of Morris Farms. Our farm, 

18 owned and operated by my brother Howard and 

19 myself, is located in Uvalda, Georgia.

20 My family has farmed in Montgomery County 

21 since the 1800s. We currently farm around 2,500 

22 acres that consist of Vidalia onions, cotton, 

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1 peanuts, corn, green beans, and a small beef2 cattle herd.

3 I've had the privilege of serving on the 

4 Autumn Hall Electric Membership Cooperative's 

5 Board of Director for 26 years, and currently 

6 serve as Vice president. I've been a member 

7 since 1981, and the family is still listing out 

8 the house where my grandfather lived when the 

9 lights came on for rural Georgia, thanks to our 

10 electric cooperative.

11 As a long-term director, I know that 

12 Autumn Hall EMC does everything possible to keep 

13 electric rates low for my farm and for every one 

14 of our members. Operating a farm in today's 

15 business environment is a challenge. Modern 

16 equipment, new technology, labor costs, and 

17 governmental concerns are among the issues that 

18 make it seem as if our input costs are like an 

19 escalator that only goes up.

20 Energy costs are a huge concern in my 

21 profession. Direct costs for electrical power 

22 for our irrigation systems, patch fume equipment, 

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1 warehouses, lighting, and office spaces account 

2 for almost 10 percent of our annual expenses.

3 It's much more complicated when you dig a 

4 little deeper, though, because energy costs 

5 affect almost every facet of our operation. Our 

6 fertilizers require heat and energy to formulate. 

7 Our chemicals require energy for manufacture. 

8 Our equipment is powered by diesel. The products 

9 we buy have to be delivered to our facilities. 

10 And the products that we produce have to be 

11 delivered to the end user.

12 To be viable as a farming business, all 

13 of these energy costs have to ultimately be 

14 passed on to the end user, who buys our onions, 

15 who throws one of our steaks on the grill, or who 

16 wants a neatly pressed cotton shirt so that they 

17 will look nice at a hearing like this today.

18 And the iron used to press that shirt 

19 also works a little better with a little 

20 electricity to make it more efficient.

21 My point is that these EPA carbon 

22 emission rules will not only increase my energy 

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1 costs and my margins, which are already razor2 thin. These rules will also affect all those 

3 folks that the American farmer works to feed and 

4 clothe.

5 The additional problem when prices 

6 necessarily rise is that my farm will be less 

7 competitive with farmers in other parts of the 

8 world who do not face the same restrictions.

9 Ironically, even many folks who espouse 

10 views that they think are environmentally 

11 friendly will still make their purchases with 

12 their pocketbook in mind. The result is a 

13 purchase of a cheaper product from a county with 

14 nowhere near the environmental protections under 

15 which we work.

16 There's not a person in this room that 

17 cares more about the environment than me, not 

18 just for myself and for my business, but for my 

19 family, my community, and the generations that 

20 come after me.

21 You see, when you grow up on a farm like 

22 I have, and like so many of my peers in electric 

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1 co-ops in Georgia and across our country, you 

2 learn early on that you've got a responsibility 

3 to leave things better than when you found them. 

4 Because when you make your living off the very 

5 land that you live on, you will learn very fast 

6 that doing anything else is not sustainable and 

7 it's morally irresponsible to not be a good 

8 steward of our land.

9 After all, the same pond that provides 

10 irrigation water for our onions provides a really 

11 good spot to teach Laughton and Maddox, my two 

12 grandkids, how to catch a catfish. And it 

13 provides a favorite site for great times with all 

14 the family as we enjoy some of the natural beauty 

15 that God has provided for us to enjoy.

16 I've been told that some folks have made 

17 some comments at these listening sessions that 

18 anyone who is opposing these EPA regulations on 

19 greenhouse gases is somehow being unfaithful to 

20 protecting God's creation.

21 My family and I and most of my neighbors 

22 and community are faithful members of churches in 

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1 our area, and are as committed to protecting 

2 God's creation as anyone. But I suggest we also 

3 have a moral responsibility to speak out for 

4 people who are unable to afford increases in the 

5 cost of energy in their homes. You simply cannot 

6 have a serious discussion about environmental 

7 stewardship without focusing also on physical 

8 stewardship. And the two subjects are not 

9 mutually exclusive.

10 As a Georgian and a taxpaying American 

11 citizen who works hard to provide for my family 

12 and support my community, I'm very troubled with 

13 EPA's blatant regulatory overreach. At the exact 

14 same time that the EPA is attempting to regulate 

15 every puddle of water that pools on my farm under 

16 the Clean Water Act, the EPA is now unilaterally 

17 attempting to expand its authority under the 

18 Clean Air Act in ways far beyond Congress ever 

19 intended.

20 I do not believe that the EPA has the 

21 authority to do either, and have added my voice 

22 to countless Americans asking Congress to rein in 

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1 the EPA.

2 In closing, I urge you to reject this 

3 proposal and work with electric cooperatives on a 

4 more balanced approach.

5 And thank you for the opportunity to 

6 speak to you here today.

7 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Morris.

8 Any questions?

9 [No audible response.]

10 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

11 All right. We do not have any names at 

12 this point. We can take volunteers. Anyone who 

13 wishes to speak right now is welcome to join us.

14 [Inaudible interjections.]

15 MR. HARVEY: Bob Reese, please join us.

16 [Pause.] 

17 MR. REESE: Finally get to go after Mr. 

18 Morris talking about the farms and the water.

19 MR. HARVEY: Great. Before we start, if 

20 you could spell your name for the reporter, that 

21 would be great.

22 MR. REESE: James, J-a-m-e-s, Robert, ROLENDER REPORTING, INC.

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1 o-b-e-r-t, Reese, R-e-e-s-e, III.

2 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. You may begin.

3 MR. REESE: We talk about clean energy, 

4 and my definition of "clean energy" would be 

5 energy that wouldn't destroy the land, the water, 

6 or the air. Wouldn't you agree?

7 MS. KEMKER: Could I ask you to speak 

8 into the mic?

9 MR. HARVEY: It's a little hard to hear.

10 MR. REESE: If you were going to define 

11 "clean energy," that would be an energy source 

12 that wouldn't destroy the air, the land, or the 

13 water. By definition, wouldn't that be "clean 

14 energy"?

15 [Pause.]

16 MR. HARVEY: The way that this works is, 

17 we're going to listen to you. It's not going to 

18 be a back-and-forth kind of colloquy. So if you

19 could make your statement, we'll be happy to hear 

20 it.

21 MR. REESE: Got you.

22 I designed a system for farmers to 

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1 protect their land, and it produces power, and it 

2 protects the water. And we can do this without 

3 having to frack and without poisoning our water.

4 The problem with the fracking is that 

5 they're not accountable for anything that they do 

6 in taking this energy source. They're exempt 

7 from the Clean Air and the Clean Water Act. And 

8 the reason the EPA is raising it and you think 

9 it's going to be attacking emissions of methane 

10 is merely for those gas wells.

11 But in designing those, we can also do 

12 clean energy and not have a war on coal. We can 

13 use the Reclamation Act to take those lands that 

14 are there and repurpose them to build molten salt 

15 plants. That will make coal companies still able 

16 to sell energy, and we can build these molten 

17 salt plants to run off the sun and store the heat 

18 of the sun in molten salt vats that can produce 

19 power 24/7, totally clean.

20 The land is already destroyed, but by 

21 doing this, we protect lands in that economic 

22 sensitive area and protect jobs, because, you 

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1 know, we have a very -- that's a very economic 

2 sensitive area in Virginia. It's by converting 

3 into molten salt plants, you continue to keep 

4 employment and produce clean energy and follow 

5 these goals.

6 So I urge that they look into using that 

7 to produce jobs and keep jobs. Convert coal 

8 energy into a clean-energy company. So that way, 

9 we don't have to lose jobs.

10 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Reese.

11 Any questions?

12 [No audible response.]

13 MR. HARVEY: Okay. Thank you very much.

14 I do not have names in front of me. So 

15 again, any volunteers, people who are waiting and 

16 would like to go now? You're welcome to come up.

17 [Pause.]

18 MR. HARVEY: What we may do is, since I'm 

19 not seeing any volunteers, we're going to take a 

20 short break and check with the registration desk. 

21 And we'll reconvene in about two minutes or so.

22 Thank you.

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1 [Recess taken from 1:55 to 2:00 p.m.]

2 AFTERNOON SESSION (continued)

3 PANEL NUMBER 3

4 MS. KEMKER: Good afternoon and welcome 

5 back to the afternoon session of our Clean Power 

6 Plan listening session -- not listening, but 

7 public hearing. We really appreciate you being 

8 here and sharing with us your thoughts and 

9 comments.

10 We will resume now, and I would like to 

11 just remind folks that I will call people up in 

12 pairs. And come up and speak. You'll have five 

13 minutes with the timer. At one minute remaining, 

14 the yellow light will come on. And then when 

15 your time is up, the beeper -- the red light and 

16 the beeper will sound.

17 So, with that, we'll resume with Ross 

18 Gordon and Steven Jackson.

19 [Pause.]

20 MS. KEMKER: And just a reminder for 

21 folks, before you begin your comments, if you 

22 will say and spell your name for the record.

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1 MR. GORDON: Hi. My name is Ross Gordon. 

2 That's R-o-s-s- G-o-r-d-o-n. And I teach high 

3 school policy debate at the Atlanta Urban Debate 

4 League.

5 It isn't clear to me, even to myself, 

6 what business I have speaking at this hearing. 

7 I'm not an environmental expert. I'm not an 

8 economist or engineer. I do not work for any 

9 advocacy organization, nor do I speak for any 

10 group of people. I've never lived in a community 

11 in which the air quality was directed affected by 

12 a nearby coal plant. 

13 I am young. I am inexperienced in 

14 politics. I am generally ignorant with respect 

15 to the political pressures which affect EPA 

16 decision-making and the sort of advocacy the EPA 

17 might find persuasive at this hearing.

18 In nine years as a student and educator 

19 in policy debate, however, I think it is possible 

20 that I know something about policy. What I think 

21 I've learned is this: No amount of statistical 

22 knowledge, no university-certified expertise, no 

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1 title or position of power renders one as an 

2 objective arbitrator of policy decisions.

3 I think this is true for at least two 

4 reasons: First, that human beings are inherently 

5 flawed and human knowledge is always incomplete 

6 and uncertain. Second, that we never speak for 

7 everyone. None of us is a voice of universal 

8 reason. We are thrown into circumstances of 

9 class, race, gender, culture, and religion, which 

10 irrevocably inform and alter our perspectives.

11 Yet policy decisions are made on behalf 

12 of everyone by a very few. I think it is 

13 impossible to do this. But this is what it means 

14 to be a policymaker.

15 When I reflect honestly on my 

16 relationship to global climate change, I feel 

17 unable to come to two provisional conclusions: 

18 First, although the vast majority of science 

19 suggests that climate change is in fact real, 

20 human-caused, and unlikely to be slowed by 

21 negative climate feedbacks, this conclusion must 

22 be uncertain in the face of the incredible 

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1 complexity of the earth's climate.

2 Second, as a white middle-class American, 

3 it is very possible that climate change may never 

4 directly affect me as anything more than an 

5 annoyance. I do not know the executives and 

6 lobbyists at fossil fuel companies, but I suspect 

7 that their reasoning may be similar.

8 As often seems to be the case with those 

9 in positions of power, they're in a position to 

10 lobby for policies guaranteed to benefit them in 

11 the short term, while displacing the long-term 

12 risk of climate change onto those both in the 

13 United States and around the world who lack the 

14 resources to adapt to rising sea levels, 

15 droughts, and natural disasters.

16 In the documentary, "The Yes Men Fix the 

17 World," two activists posing as Halliburton

18 executives present a fake product called the 

19 Survivalball to an insurance convention. The 

20 product, which is a comically oversized 

21 inflatable sphere that fully engulfs the wearer, 

22 is marketed as an all-purpose personal safety

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1 device in the event of apocalyptic climate 

2 change.

3 As the activists' presentation commences, 

4 a graphic is shown depicting businesspeople,

5 wearing the Survivalball, jumping from their 

6 high-rise offices safely to the pavement below. 

7 After the presentation, several businesspeople 

8 approached the activists to earnestly discuss the 

9 product. One member of the audience muses that, 

10 "although the Survivalball would be expensive to 

11 market, the" -- and I'm quoting here -- "people 

12 who would really need it or want it would find,"

13 quoting again, "that price is no object."

14 When we talk about climate adaptation and 

15 perhaps even climate mitigation, I think we are 

16 implicitly endorsing this dystopian future -- the 

17 very wealthy escaping the apocalypse in their 

18 fancy, expensive Survivalballs. For those for 

19 whom price is no object, this risk may be 

20 acceptable. We will have done enough.

21 As the black population in New Orleans 

22 was abandoned by its government in the midst of 

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1 Hurricane Katrina, and as Hurricane Sandy left 

2 thousands of Haitians homeless and millions 

3 hungry, it should be clear where the real risks 

4 of climate change lie.

5 I do not know honestly if these events 

6 were caused by climate change. I do know that, 

7 insofar as climate change threatens to cause 

8 similar events in the future, these impacts will 

9 continue to be felt mostly by the poor and 

10 dispossessed.

11 As these crises unfold, those with 

12 relative wealth and power will continue to have 

13 debates in air-conditioned conference rooms, 

14 high-rise offices, and insulated university 

15 classrooms about whether fossil fuel profits can 

16 be risked, in hope of affecting an admittedly 

17 complex, abstract, and uncertain thing called 

18 climate.

19 I am glad and grateful that the EPA has 

20 put forward this proposal for the Clean Power 

21 Plan. I was told that EPA's primary interest at 

22 this hearing was in discussion of technical 

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1 details. Of course, these technical details are 

2 in many ways crucial. But I think they can also 

3 obscure a far more straightforward reality.

4 However the technical aspects of this

5 particular proposal resolve, I do not think we 

6 should hesitate from stating the simple and 

7 brutal truth. Wherever carbon is regulated, coal 

8 will lose and the future victims of climate 

9 change will benefit. Whether we are policymakers 

10 or climate change activists, I think this formula 

11 must remain at the core of our analysis and 

12 political strategy.

13 Thank you.

14 MS. KEMKER: Thank you.

15 Questions?

16 [No audible response.]

17 MS. KEMKER: Thank you.

18 Mr. Jackson.

19 MR. JACKSON: Yes. Steven Jackson, S-t20 e-v-e-n J-a-c-k-s-o-n. 

21 Thank you for having me here this 

22 afternoon. I'm the Senior Vice President and 

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1 Chief Operating Officer of the Municipal Electric 

2 Authority of Georgia, or we're commonly known as 

3 MEAC Power.

4 We were created solely to serve 49 member 

5 public power communities in Georgia with reliable 

6 and affordable wholesale power. We operate 

7 without profit. We have no shareholders. So all 

8 of our costs for supply go directly to the 

9 electric bills of the customers of the 49 

10 communities that we serve.

11 It is on behalf of the citizens of these 

12 49 communities that I provide these comments 

13 today, for they are the ones that will bear the 

14 impact of these rules.

15 The regulatory approach on these proposed 

16 rules goes well beyond the limits of Section 

17 111(d) of the Clean Air Act, and errs in its 

18 approach in many ways. The proposed rule 

19 infringes on state and local authority to 

20 regulate the utility business and the utility's 

21 ability to plan and operate the electric system 

22 in a reliable and cost-effective manner.

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1 Some of our specific issues include that 

2 the proposed rule appears designed to achieve a 

3 30 percent national reduction in tons of CO2, 

4 first in 2005 for the power sector as a whole. 

5 This is not what Section 111(d) requires. 

6 Section 111(d) only authorizes standards of 

7 performance on individual, affected sources.

8 The proposed rule mandates state goals 

9 that go far beyond setting standards on the 

10 affected sources, employing a best system of 

11 emission reduction which extends its reach beyond 

12 the fence-line of its affected sources.

13 The 6 percent emission rate reduction 

14 goal-setting for coal units is applied across the 

15 board, but it's not achievable on all units. 

16 Requiring natural gas combined cycles to operate 

17 at 70 percent capacity factor for a goal is not 

18 an emissions standard. It increases gas 

19 emissions and does not consider reliability, 

20 cost, or ownership.

21 Including under-construction new nuclear 

22 and at-risk existing nuclear in goal-setting is 

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1 not authorized under Section 111(d). And 

2 including renewable and energy efficiency in 

3 goal-setting infringes on state and local 

4 authority.

5 The current supply to our 49 member 

6 communities consists of over 1,200 megawatts of 

7 nuclear and hydroelectric power supply. The 

8 result is that over 50 percent of our electricity 

9 supplied to our communities is produced with no 

10 emissions. The proposed rule provides little 

11 credit for these carbon-free resources, and 

12 instead will require these communities to fund 

13 new unneeded renewable energy resources and new 

14 energy efficiency programs, which raise the cost 

15 of electricity to our consumers unnecessarily.

16 Looking to invest in the future of these 

17 communities, our members have not only invested 

18 in the new construction of Vogtle units 3 and 4 

19 non-emitting resources, but also have funded 

20 half-a-billion dollars of emissions-controlled 

21 state-of-the-art controls for our coal-generating 

22 resources based on recent federal and state 

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1 rules.

2 These proposed carbon dioxide rules 

3 penalize our communities for the investments by 

4 asking the State of Georgia for additional 

5 emission reductions beyond what we've already 

6 achieved from 2005 levels. But they also do not 

7 consider these nuclear investments.

8 The proposal would also require reduced 

9 coal unit operations, potentially shutting these 

10 units down, which would strand the costs of these

11 recent environmental investments and again raise 

12 the cost of our electricity unnecessarily to our 

13 communities.

14 Each hour of the day, MEAC Power manages 

15 the use of our diverse mix of resources in order 

16 to provide the lowest-cost wholesale power to our 

17 communities. It's essential for their growth and 

18 prosperity. Principle of economic dispatch form 

19 the foundation of the power industry operation 

20 and allows for use of a diverse set of fuel 

21 resources in a manner that ensures the citizens 

22 receive the benefit of this investment.

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1 Again, this proposed rule goes well 

2 beyond what is allowed under the Clean Air Act, 

3 dictates the operation of resources, and 

4 preventing economic dispatch of the system, which 

5 raises the cost to our consumers.

6 This proposal goes well beyond Section 

7 111(d) requirements, creates costs that will flow 

8 directly to our consumers, many who are low on 

9 fixed income and can least afford an increase in 

10 electricity costs. We request you withdraw this 

11 proposal and resubmit a proposal that complies 

12 with the Clean Air Act and states and be 

13 implemented under state laws.

14 Thank you for the opportunity to make 

15 these comments. I appreciate your time.

16 MS. KEMKER: I had one question for Mr. 

17 Gordon. You mentioned a documentary?

18 MR. GORDON: Yes. The name of the 

19 documentary is "Yes Men Fix the World."

20 MS. KEMKER: Yes. Thank you.

21 Other questions?

22 [No audible response.] 

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1 MS. KEMKER: Thank you both.

2 [Pause.]

3 MS. KEMKER: Our next speakers are Kelly 

4 Coles and Steve Davidson.

5 [Pause.]

6 MS. COLES: My name is Kelly Coles, K-e7 l-l-y C-o-l-e-s.

8 And to begin, I'd like to start with a 

9 story. And I think this story really illustrates 

10 why I'm here today.

11 Several years ago, I was hiking through 

12 the woods when I encountered an absolutely 

13 exquisite being unlike any I had ever before 

14 seen. I was walking and talking with a friend, 

15 kind of oblivious to my surroundings, when I 

16 heard something off to my left, a rustle in the 

17 leaves.

18 So I turned and looked, and there was a 

19 white deer. I'd never seen a white deer before, 

20 and this one was incredibly calm. She looked me 

21 right in the eyes, and instead of running, as all 

22 the deer that I'd seen before, she just laid 

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1 down. We locked eyes, kind of like magnets, and 

2 I don't know how long we stood there together, 

3 but it completely transformed my experiencing of 

4 the world.

5 The rest of the day, everything that I 

6 encountered, every form of existence, I looked at 

7 with fresh eyes. Somehow, I could sense the 

8 mysterious ecological web of connectivity between 

9 us that I had read about, but never really been 

10 able to experience in such a tangible way.

11 Having spent a lot of time being quiet 

12 and kind of lonely, this experience transformed 

13 me. I found a new joy in being alive, and I saw 

14 the importance in hearing soft voices. Having 

15 one myself, I found that I could no longer keep 

16 quiet about the things that mattered to me.

17 That day in the forest, I could feel the 

18 voices of the whole world echoing around me. 

19 Among them, I could sense my own voice ringing as 

20 well. I knew that there were other voices that 

21 we weren't listening to.

22 But when I left the forest, I couldn't 

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1 help but see the dying creek bed and the clear2 cut trees on the periphery. Today, due to 

3 climate disruption based on human activity, in 

4 large part, species are dying off at a rate 1,000 

5 to 10,000 times greater than the background rate. 

6 We're at a risk of losing 30 to 50 percent of our 

7 biodiversity by mid-century if we keep going at 

8 this rate.

9 I couldn't fathom a world without 

10 diversity, like I was able to experience. I hope 

11 that my children can experience that and that 

12 other children everywhere get the opportunity 

13 that all people do.

14 So I support the EPA's climate action 

15 plan because it gives us the opportunity to 

16 transform our understanding of who we are and 

17 what our relation with the earth is. She's been 

18 here far longer than we. What makes us think 

19 that we can make myopic decisions that will 

20 affect not just humans, but all forms of 

21 existence on this blue planet?

22 We must respect our elders here as well, 

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1 honoring the wisdom of the earth. If we choose 

2 to do the right thing and to cease our polluting 

3 ways, we can begin to set things right again. 

4 Somehow in our modern world, we have come to view 

5 ourselves as separate from the natural world. 

6 Despite our inherent dependence on her, we have 

7 come to imagine that we're somehow superior and 

8 different.

9 But humanity evolved in close connection 

10 with nature. For most of human history, we had 

11 an entirely different relationship with her, one 

12 that respected and honored her.

13 In recent years, we've come to surround 

14 ourselves with human-reflecting signs and we've 

15 forgotten our place in the world. Language, 

16 which arose out of our intimate relation with the 

17 earth, has come to serve purely human purposes, 

18 no longer echoing the majesty and wisdom of 

19 nature, but reflecting ourselves alone back to 

20 us. How are we supposed to make decisions if we 

21 are only thinking about ourselves? It's too 

22 narrow.

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1 At the beginning of human history, we 

2 might have focused to much on abstract things, on 

3 mystical things. And then we went into the 

4 Industrial Revolution and to the agricultural 

5 revolutions that allowed us to transform our 

6 thinking. At that time, we began to try to solve 

7 all the problems of the universe, all the 

8 mysteries. And we began to think that it's okay 

9 for us to change what we don't like and use what 

10 we do.

11 I believe that these are all important 

12 values and perspectives. But it's time to come 

13 into a balance. We're measuring everything in 

14 human terms, based on progress that's measured by 

15 yet another symbol. Our symbol now is money. 

16 Money is nothing but a symbol. Is this truly 

17 what we're going to live by? Can we look at our 

18 children and tell them that we chose to insure, 

19 not the health of our planet, but the size of our 

20 wallets?

21 When we die, we know we can take nothing 

22 with us. Can we look the young ones by our beds 

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1 in the eyes at that time with integrity, knowing 

2 we did everything we could to leave behind a 

3 diverse, nurturing earth? Or will we look out 

4 the window to see smog hovering, the other voices 

5 of the earth muted, and human waste raining?

6 It's time to choose a new symbol to live 

7 by. I choose the white deer. Which will we 

8 choose for our country?

9 Thank you.

10 MS. KEMKER: Thanks.

11 Mr. Davidson?

12 MR. DAVIDSON: My turn?

13 MS. KEMKER: Yes.

14 MR. DAVIDSON: My name is Steve Davidson, 

15 from Austin, Texas.

16 One talking point -- compliance costs. 

17 The IPM, which seems to be like a black box, says 

18 that compliance will cost between $7.3 and $8.8 

19 billion.

20 And that number seems a little low, 

21 especially considering that Texas, where I'm 

22 from, ERCOT just completed a $6 billion upgrade 

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1 just of their electric grid infrastructure to 

2 support 12 to 18 gigawatt hours of transmission 

3 from West Texas, where the winds farms, to East 

4 Texas, where all the electricity is used. So 

5 that number seemed low to me.

6 So, what I did is took numbers and did 

7 some calculations. And the methodology is like 

8 this: Every, all the data comes from either EIA 

9 or EPA. And primarily, the state table is my 

10 primary source of information to calculate costs. 

11 And then use the levelized cost of electricity 

12 for 2019 EIA numbers, and the state table is used 

13 to calculate a coal-equivalent reduction, 

14 replacement.

15 That, how much coal-generated electricity 

16 needs to be replaced with lower CO2 emission 

17 energy sources to meet the standard? And you can 

18 calculate that from the state table. And the 

19 state table, the first prize is that the state 

20 table calculates out to, on a national level, 

21 either a 32 -- between a 32-33 percent reduction 

22 in CO2 emissions below 2012 levels, not 2005 --

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1 2012. That's in the state table.

2 And I used that state table. And the 

3 percentage reduction for coal is about 41 

4 percent. So you're going to have to get, take 

5 and replace that 41 percent with something else. 

6 And it's 678,000 megawatts worth of electricity 

7 that has to come from someplace else.

8 And using the levalized cost, I did some 

9 calculations. I also -- and these are based on 

10 blocks 1, 2, 3, and 4. And so, my primary 

11 numbers come from the block 3-4 solution that I 

12 did these numbers for, I'll read in just a 

13 minute.

14 I'll talk about block 1 a little bit 

15 first. Block 1 is improving the efficiency of 

16 existing coal-fired plants. And that, Sargent 

17 and Lundy's study, the EPA's study, is excellent. 

18 I mean, it's great. It has a zillion different 

19 solutions to improve the efficiency of carbon 

20 plants.

21 But at the very end, it has a very 

22 telling example. That example is a 250-megawatt 

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1 coal plant where you apply fixes to improve its 

2 efficiency by 4 percent. Cost $13.3 million. If 

3 you expand that out and applied it across the 

4 board to all coal plants, that would be between 

5 21 and 40 -- $22 and $41 billion to reduce 4 

6 percent. Okay?

7 So that's block 1, pretty spendy for --

8 the bang for the buck isn't there. So you're not 

9 going to do very much of that. You're going to 

10 do something else.

11 Block 2, rebalance, essentially doesn't 

12 have a cost to it, because you're using the 

13 existing things. You know, you're tweaking them. 

14 Block 3 is replacing the coal with lower-emission 

15 sources. And Block 4 is reduced demand side, you 

16 know, energy efficiency.

17 So I did calculations on the block 3-4 

18 solution. I'll just read the numbers here. And 

19 I picked this on the various types of sources 

20 that could be. So, for example, geothermal, 

21 which has a levelized cost of 4790 per megawatt 

22 hour, if you could apply it, it would cost about 

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1 $30 billion to replace, you know, to create all 

2 that coal-replacement energy.

3 Up in order, natural gas advanced 

4 combined cycle, which is the only thing anybody 

5 is ever going to use, is just -- is right a 

6 little bit over 39 billion. Wind is 49 billion; 

7 hydro, 51 billion; advanced nuclear, 58 billion; 

8 biomass, 62 billion; solar PV, 79 billion; and 

9 coal with CCS, 90 billion.

10 So, nobody is going to use coal with CCS. 

11 And there are no coal plants scheduled to be 

12 built in the United States after the ones that 

13 are subsidized by the government. So we're not 

14 going to see that.

15 MS. KEMKER: Mr. Davidson, your time is 

16 up. If you could wrap it up. Thank you.

17 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. I'll just say that, 

18 for those costs, we're buying -- I think we need 

19 to be aware of those costs. I think the IPM 

20 needs to be revisited and recalculated. I don't 

21 know how that calculation was done, but I'm 

22 certain it's about an order of magnitude below 

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1 what it should be. That's a pretty big 

2 difference. So I urge EPA to review the IPM and 

3 recalculate those numbers and make them more 

4 realistic.

5 Thank you.

6 MS. KEMKER: Thanks. And if you have 

7 written comments, we would be happy to accept 

8 those as well, with your examples.

9 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. It's right here.

10 MS. KEMKER: Thank you. Okay.

11 I just had one clarifying question. You 

12 said Table 2? Which Table 2 are you referring 

13 to?

14 MR. DAVIDSON: The state table. It's in 

15 the state regulation. It's the one that lists, 

16 for each state, how much megatons they have, how 

17 much electricity produced, what the pounds per 

18 megawatt hour in 2012 and the pounds per megawatt 

19 hour 2030. So that's where that table is.

20 MS. KEMKER: Thank you both.

21 Our next two speakers are Brionte 

22 McCorkle -- and if I mispronounce your name, 

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1 please help correct me -- and Connor Hawley. If 

2 you'll both please come forward.

3 [Pause.]

4 MS. KEMKER: Welcome.

5 [Pause.]

6 MS. KEMKER: If you'll begin.

7 MS. McCORKLE: Okay. So, my name is 

8 Brionte McCorkle. And I work for the Georgia 

9 chapter of the Sierra Club.

10 MS. KEMKER: And if you'll take a moment 

11 to spell your name for the court reporter.

12 MS. McCORKLE: Um-hm. B-r-i-o-n-t-e, 

13 last name M-c-C-o-r-k-l-e.

14 MS. KEMKER: Thanks.

15 MS. McCORKLE: All right. So, I work for 

16 the Georgia Sierra Club. And my official title 

17 is Conservation and Communications Coordinator, 

18 but that does not explain what I do. 

19 Essentially, I'm a community organizer, and I 

20 work on transportation issues.

21 I work primarily to expand transportation 

22 alternatives like biking, walking, mass transit, 

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1 and electric vehicles. I feel like by 

2 encouraging people to choose a commute that 

3 doesn't contribute to nearly 70 percent of the 

4 oil consumed in the U.S. and which also 

5 contributes to nearly 30 percent of greenhouse 

6 gas pollution in our nation, I hope to secure a 

7 future with less conflict and cleaner air.

8 On that same pie chart, I can also see 

9 that the electricity generation sector also 

10 accounts for nearly that same percentage of 

11 greenhouse gas pollution, about, I believe it was 

12 32 percent. And now, for the first time ever, 

13 limits on carbon emissions from existing power 

14 plants have been proposed. And they're the 

15 largest single source of carbon emissions.

16 And to be honest, I didn't really 

17 understand the significance of that at first. 

18 And then I read that Georgia's actually home to 

19 the single largest source, which is Plant 

20 Scherer. And this plant alone emits 21 million 

21 tons of carbon dioxide a year, which is as much 

22 as 4.5 million cars.

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1 Well, I know my work as a transit 

2 organizer is helping to reduce emissions. But, 

3 wow -- 4.5 million cars? Like transportation 

4 organizers would have to change the behaviors of 

5 so many individuals and completely change the way 

6 our cities were designed and built, to achieve 

7 that reduction. And that is a lot of work and 

8 takes a lot of time.

9 I've been working on getting mass transit 

10 expanded into Clayton County, and I've only been 

11 there for a year. And to see the hoops we have 

12 to jump through to make this stuff happen, and 

13 only imagining that multiplied across this nation 

14 and thinking we could really target it with this 

15 plan -- 4.5 million cars is, wow. That put it 

16 into perspective, for me.

17 So let me get back on track. Sorry.

18 [Laughter.]

19 MS. McCORKLE: So, by now I'm sure you 

20 all have heard from plenty of doctors who have 

21 mentioned that the harmful effects of -- well, 

22 they've basically discussed the harmful effects 

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1 of all the air pollution at the community and 

2 individual level.

3 And I'm sure you've heard from people, 

4 climate activists, who have discussed the larger 

5 reality of climate disruption and how all this 

6 pollution is contributing to that phenomenon that 

7 we're were already seeing in the form of severe 

8 droughts, record heat, and super-storms.

9 So, I mean, these events are costing us 

10 more money in more places. And I don't really 

11 have much to add to those points. I feel like, 

12 in sum, we're asking for cleaner air and safer 

13 and healthier communities. 

14 So I also briefly want to mention that in 

15 my transportation work, I've grown very, very 

16 aware of environmental justice work, issues of 

17 equity and the grim statistics that people of 

18 color are disproportionately affected by 

19 environmental issues. For example, earlier, I 

20 mentioned Plant Scherer, which is actually very 

21 close to Macon, which is a community that's 67 

22 percent African American.

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1 And as a person of color, I care deeply 

2 about these issues. And I work diligently on 

3 them in my role at the Sierra Club and through 

4 other organizations. Again, it's amazing to me 

5 that this plan, this plan, it's a new commonsense 

6 plan, and it could be such a huge step forward in 

7 reducing emissions.

8 It's an action that protects people and 

9 protects communities, especially those living on 

10 the front lines. And that, again, really matters 

11 to me.

12 And the plan is not too ambition. And 

13 the notion of moving to cleaner technologies, 

14 cleaner energy sources is not new. This has been 

15 talked about for years. Power companies have had 

16 plenty of time to prepare for and invest in the 

17 changes ahead.

18 In fact, Georgia's already on track. 

19 We've already reduced our emissions by 22 percent 

20 while we've been recovering from a recession. 

21 And the talk of job loss is understandable. But, 

22 you know, even in coal's brightest day in 

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1 Georgia, is when it was producing about 70

2 percent of our electricity, it only accounted for 

3 2,700 jobs in Georgia. And in 2012, there are 

4 already 10,000 jobs in the solar, wind, and 

5 energy efficiency industries. And those are the 

6 ones that are poised to continue to grow.

7 So I see I'm running out of time. So I'm 

8 just going to make one quick analogy, and I'm 

9 done.

10 It's like this: People were riding 

11 around in stagecoaches before cars. So, imagine 

12 if the stagecoach industry was so big and 

13 powerful that it was able to prevent the market 

14 from embracing the automobile through blocking 

15 administrative policy decisions that helped pave 

16 the way for the vehicle. We would all be riding 

17 around in stagecoaches.

18 You know, there is surely not the best 

19 way to get around, and the car would -- has 

20 revolutionized the way we lived. And the same 

21 thing could happen with cleaner energy sources. 

22 So, thank you.

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1 MS. KEMKER: Thank you.

2 All right. Mr. Hawley?

3 MR. HAWLEY: All right. My name is 

4 Connor Hawley, C-o-n-n-o-r H-a-w-l-e-y.

5 I'm a student at Chattahoochee High

6 School, north of here, and I'm affiliated with 

7 their recycling club.

8 As I'm sure you already know, 

9 anthropogenic climate change is already upon us 

10 and continues to grow like a tumor as our energy 

11 demand only grows. According to the Energy 

12 Information Administration, our energy demand 

13 will grow from 387 billion kilowatt hours in 2012 

14 to 4,954 billion kilowatt hours by 2040. Just as 

15 here, Atlanta experienced the bitter effects of 

16 climate change when a small snowstorm brought 

17 commerce to a standstill.

18 As a student, I lost two weeks of 

19 instruction due to what appears to be climate 

20 change-related phenomenon.

21 This disgrace made Atlanta the subject of 

22 mockery nationwide, quoting even Saturday Night 

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1 Live in our humiliation. The entire situation 

2 was like ludicrous. However, I don't believe 

3 that Kasim Reed or any of us could have really 

4 done anything about it. We were simply not 

5 prepared, and that's the problem.

6 We are almost as unprepared for the 

7 catastrophic damages climate change proposes as 

8 Atlanta was for the snowstorm earlier this year.

9 Scientific evidence does indicate that 

10 the snowstorm was augmented by climate change. 

11 Multiple scientists -- specifically, Jennifer 

12 Francis and Stephen Vavrus from the Institute of 

13 Marine and Coastal Sciences at Rutgers University 

14 -- have posited that extreme mid-latitude 

15 weather, like we saw last winter, is caused by a 

16 decline in polar ice caps.

17 And the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on 

18 Climate Changes, IPCC's 2007 assessment report,

19 claimed that climate change like declining polar 

20 ice caps has a greater than 95 percent likelihood 

21 of being caused by humans. Meaning, the science 

22 says that climate change is already here and 

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1 having its effects in 2014.

2 The only problem is that, in coming 

3 decades, the effects of climate change will be 

4 significantly worse than spending a night in your 

5 heated Cadillac on 285. This time, you get to 

6 watch your friends and family die of starvation.

7 The University of Minnesota's Institute 

8 on the Environment are observing many stagnating 

9 or collapsing crop yields of several cereal 

10 grains worldwide when the world population only 

11 continues to grow. I'm afraid that there is no 

12 deus ex machina in this case or in the real 

13 world. Just because we have survived previous 

14 disaster does not magically guarantee our

15 survival in the future.

16 The threat is absolutely tangible and 

17 obscenely dangerous. I mean, think about that 

18 for a minute. Just like nuclear threats during 

19 the Cold War, there is nothing guaranteeing our 

20 safety from other destruction. Even during the 

21 Cold War, launched nuclear warheads would not 

22 have been good for anybody.

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1 What's worse with this new generational 

2 problem of climate change is that our economy's 

3 growth is being fueled by a promise of future 

4 destruction. Because of delayed consequences, 

5 the world is, this time, collaborating to destroy 

6 itself.

7 The world's economy is functioning 

8 similarly to a bunch of meth addicts. When they 

9 started smoking the stuff back in the early 

10 nineteenth century, everything seemed to light up 

11 and become full of energy. Over time, they 

12 didn't notice their decaying teeth or shredded 

13 skin because they were just too high.

14 The drug has kept coming to them so they 

15 could maintain their illusory perceptions, and 

16 they aren't going to run out any time soon, 

17 either. Much sooner, their bodies will abruptly 

18 enter a state of organ failure from an 

19 accumulation of abuse.

20 We have the resources to continue 

21 harvesting and burning fossil fuels for a long 

22 time. But the environment simply cannot contain 

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1 that much more carbon before plants, the source 

2 of all food, will succumb to extreme conditions 

3 and die.

4 According to the IPCC, if we pump enough 

5 emissions into the atmosphere to raise the 

6 average global temperature 4 degrees Celsius --

7 that's only 7 degrees Fahrenheit -- above pre8 industrial levels, that's game over. End of your 

9 cards. We would literally make our planet 

10 unsuitable for civilization. And that may sound 

11 ridiculous, but we've already gone up 1 degree 

12 Celsius in just the last century alone.

13 For those reasons, I support the EPA's 

14 proposed rules as a decent start. Unfortunately, 

15 I see your regulations as a strong political 

16 maneuver with weak environmental impact. 

17 According to the Clean Power Plan, reducing 

18 carbon emissions by 30 percent in the sector of 

19 the economy producing one-third of domestic 

20 carbon emissions would reduce domestic emissions 

21 by only 10 percent by 2030.

22 That's more than a drop in the bucket, 

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1 and I think the effects would be felt 

2 ubiquitously. But it's far less than what would 

3 be needed to avert climate change's nastiest 

4 effects.

5 Many of you are more calloused to the 

6 issue because your lifespan will likely not last 

7 long enough for you to really feel climate 

8 disaster sink its fangs into the economy. I am, 

9 however, not satisfied, since I have to live 

10 through this.

11 The regulations indicate a willingness to 

12 shift our energy supply, but I think America 

13 could reach far higher in reducing her carbon 

14 emissions without being too detrimental to her 

15 economy. For that reason, I'm very optimistic to 

16 see what individual states do with this plan. I 

17 think it's a wise move to delegate so much 

18 oversight and decision-making to the individual 

19 states to come to safer energy diversity.

20 With these new incentives in place, I 

21 hope to see states turning to sustainable 

22 solutions and new energy sources in lieu of 

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1 efficiency improvement and clean coal emission 

2 reductions, as suggested by the Clean Power Plan, 

3 as those latter reductions, I believe, would 

4 likely mean expanding Shell Oil and Gas to meet 

5 the plan's goals.

6 If I had it my way, I'd have this country 

7 switch over to renewable energy at a rate that 

8 would be ruinous to the economy. However, I 

9 realize that this is political suicide and would 

10 not pass in any democracy. If anyone has -- I 

11 don't think there is really a solution to that, 

12 unfortunately.

13 Thank you for your time.

14 MS. KEMKER: Thank you.

15 Any questions?

16 [No audible response.] 

17 MS. KEMKER: Thank you both.

18 Our next speakers are Sarah Lettes and 

19 Elisabeth McNamara.

20 [Pause.] 

21 MS. KEMKER: And if you'll both, when you 

22 begin speaking, state and spell your names.

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1 MS. LETTES: Hi. My name is Sarah 

2 Lettes, S-a-r-a-h L-e-t-t-e-s. And I'm a student 

3 at Pace Academy. And I'm going to start by 

4 telling you an experience I had. 

5 "You know, I can remember when there used 

6 to be snow right where you're standing," my 

7 guide, Antony noted, as he led me and my 

8 classmates to our campsite. I stared at the 

9 green plants around me and the dusty ground under 

10 my feet. We were over halfway up Mount 

11 Kilimanjaro, and I knew we wouldn't walk through 

12 snow for at least another day.

13 "Really? Why do you think there's so 

14 much less snow now?" I asked Antony.

15 "Global warming," he replied, simply.

16 Those words stuck with me. I thought 

17 about it as we came back down the mountain two 

18 days later. As the sky cleared and Tanzania 

19 stretched in front of me for miles, it was a view 

20 that I hoped to never change.

21 I thought about it more after I got home. 

22 One day, while doing homework, I scrolled through 

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1 Google images of Kilimanjaro 20 years ago and 

2 now. The difference was startling. The mountain 

3 was the same, but there was a huge discrepancy in 

4 the amount of snow.

5 Here for the first time, I could see 

6 visible and tangible effects of climate change. 

7 Climate change was altering one of the most 

8 beautiful peaks on the planet. I felt a sense of 

9 helplessness at the scope of the situation and 

10 frustration at the lack of action.

11 And then the Clean Power Plan was 

12 introduced, a concrete plan to act and change the 

13 way we do things. It startled me to learn that 

14 there are currently no limits on carbon emissions 

15 from power plants. Now we have this 

16 unprecedented opportunity, thanks to the EPA, to 

17 finally get on the right path.

18 If our country takes advantage of this 

19 groundbreaking new plan, it will change all of 

20 our lives for the better. It will help us 

21 transition to a more modern energy economy, 

22 stimulate the creation of new jobs, and reduce 

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1 health costs across the nation. It will make the 

2 U.S. an energy leader and set a powerful example 

3 for other countries.

4 This is action that needs to happen. 

5 It's a goal within reach that will change the 

6 future for the better. Someday, if I take my own 

7 students to Mount Kilimanjaro, I hope it will be 

8 the same. I hope the snow would be as expansive 

9 and the air as clean as before. I hope that the

10 biggest challenge for my students would be their 

11 sore legs, not respiratory issues caused by 

12 pollution.

13 I hope I would remember with appreciation 

14 the Clean Power Plan that got passed at a time we 

15 needed it most.

16 As a high school student, I know that my 

17 generation will face some monumental issues in 

18 the coming years. We have a lot of work ahead of 

19 us in the fight to protect our planet. I'm up 

20 here right now because I know this can't wait.

21 By the time I graduate college, power 

22 plants will have been pumping out carbon 

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1 emissions for another five years. Right now, 

2 there's an incredible opportunity to set 

3 ourselves on the right path. I thank the EPA for 

4 taking this important step. I feel so much more 

5 motivated and hopeful knowing action to protect 

6 our country and planet is being taken right now.

7 I fully support the Clean Power Plan. 

8 And I know that if we join together in support of 

9 this, the world really will change for the 

10 better.

11 Thank you.

12 MS. KEMKER: Thank you.

13 MS. McNAMARA: Thank you. My name is 

14 Elisabeth McNamara, and I'm the National 

15 President of the League of Women Voters. I am 

16 also a resident of the metro Atlanta area and 

17 have been for 40 years. And I'm very, very proud 

18 to be here this afternoon with a younger 

19 generation speaking its mind on such an important 

20 issue.

21 Thank you for holding these public 

22 hearings and the others like it across the 

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1 country, and for taking my comments and the 

2 comments of other members of the public and the 

3 comments of other members of the League of Women 

4 Voters. So far, the league has generated over 

5 50,000 comments in support of this regulatory 

6 process.

7 That being said, the league believes that 

8 the EPA proposal can and should be strengthened 

9 to better and more realistically recognize the 

10 tremendous potential for renewable energy and 

11 energy conservation in cutting carbon emissions.

12 Burning coal accounts for half the 

13 electricity generated in the United States, and 

14 carbon pollution from U.S. power plants counts 

15 for 40 percent of the CO2 emissions contributing 

16 to climate change and is responsible for 

17 increased air pollution that can cause thousands 

18 of deaths every year if it remains unchecked.

19 We must protect public health by 

20 extending limits like the ones placed on arsenic, 

21 lead, mercury, and soot to carbon pollution.

22 According to the American Lung 

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1 Association, nearly half of us live in counties 

2 with unhealthy levels of dirty air, which when 

3 exacerbated by climate change caused by carbon 

4 pollution, is responsible for premature deaths, 

5 respiratory disease, and higher risks of asthma 

6 attacks.

7 It also disproportionately affects low8 income communities, as well as children, seniors, 

9 and those who work or play outdoors.

10 Scientific reports show that inaction 

11 will only increase the impacts that climate 

12 change brings to our communities, from increased 

13 health risks to devastating extreme weather 

14 events. It is our moral obligation to our 

15 children and future generations to address these 

16 impacts by cutting CO2 emissions from all power 

17 plants and by setting sensible standards, not 

18 just for new sources, but for existing power 

19 plants as well.

20 We applaud the EPA for taking steps to do 

21 so, and we strongly support EPA proposals. But 

22 we also encourage you to work with state 

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1 stakeholders to be more aggressive when in 

2 determining final actions to reduce this deadly 

3 form of pollution.

4 Specifically, the league would like to 

5 see a 35 percent reduction in carbon pollution 

6 below overall 2005 levels by 2030. We would like 

7 to see greater speed in consideration of these 

8 critical new rules. We urge the EPA to allow no 

9 slippage in the current timetable or in the 

10 interim steps called for in the plan.

11 The EPA proposal is strengthened by 

12 providing for greater use of renewable energy and 

13 energy efficiency in displacing carbon emissions 

14 from power plants in establishing state-by-state 

15 targets is also one of our goals, or one 

16 consideration that we ask you to take.

17 The American public supports the EPA when 

18 it comes to strong regulations that will protect 

19 the health and wellbeing of our children and our 

20 communities. The United States must take 

21 aggressive action to reduce greenhouse gas 

22 emissions from all sources, with emission targets 

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1 of at least 35 percent below overall 2005 levels 

2 by 2030.

3 Reaching these targets will require 

4 current power plants to dramatically reduce their 

5 carbon emissions, and the League of Women Voters 

6 urges the EPA to require those steps as quickly 

7 as possible.

8 And I do have copies of my more complete 

9 remarks and, I believe, remarks that have been 

10 submitted electronically from the Washington 

11 office.

12 MS. KEMKER: Thank you. And I ask two 

13 things. One, your more complete -- if you 

14 comment, if you would give those to the 

15 registration desk, that would be great.

16 MS. McNAMARA: Fabulous.

17 MS. KEMKER: And then, the other thing, 

18 could you spell your name for the court reporter?

19 MS. McNAMARA: Absolutely. It is E-l-i20 s-a-b-e-t-h McNamara, M-c-N-a-m-a-r-a.

21 MS. KEMKER: Thank you.

22 MS. McNAMARA: Thank you.

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1 MS. KEMKER: Questions?

2 [No audible response.]

3 MS. KEMKER: Thank you for your time.

4 MS. McNAMARA: Thank you for holding 

5 these hearings.

6 MS. KEMKER: Our next speakers are Susan 

7 Gamble and Gary Spikula. Thanks. Please come 

8 up.

9 [Pause.]

10 MS. KEMKER: Ms. Gamble, if you'll begin 

11 when you're ready.

12 MS. GAMBLE: I'm Susan Gamble, S-u-s-a-n 

13 G-a-m-b-l-e. I'm from Lawrenceville, Georgia, 

14 and Jackson EMC is my power provider.

15 If we don't get clean power soon, within 

16 the near future, I will become my own power 

17 provider with solar. I prefer to purchase my 

18 power from a company so that I don't have to fuss 

19 with a solar array and system. But I will change 

20 my ways if they do not provide clean energy soon.

21 The citizens speaking for clean air are 

22 taking days off from work, vacation days, and 

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1 time away from families to be here. I myself 

2 work for myself. So I'm losing money to be here.

3 I want to speak about the need and the 

4 necessity for government regulation. When I go 

5 to the doctor, they ask if I have ever been 

6 exposed to secondhand smoke. I feel like saying, 

7 "You have my birth date, so you know the answer 

8 is yes." Everyone in my generation was affected 

9 by secondhand smoke. All office environments 

10 were heavy with it, all restaurants, all public 

11 places.

12 Thanks to intervention from government 

13 agencies, after intense pressure from the public, 

14 that is no longer the case. Government must step 

15 up to protect.

16 Our EPA must step up and force change 

17 upon dirty industries in order to ensure a 

18 healthy living environment. Industry has a 

19 terrible track record of doing it without 

20 government intervention.

21 I live in Georgia, where the utilities 

22 are crying like victims. They fight against 

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1 clean energy like wind and solar with every 

2 marketing dollar they have. Can you imagine how 

3 much clean energy would have already been in the 

4 mix if their marketing efforts were put to 

5 positive use? I would have a state to brag about 

6 all over social media. If the United States 

7 would shift away from dirty power, I would have a 

8 country to brag about.

9 We need clean energy now. I support wind 

10 and solar. We need to reduce carbon emissions 

11 from coal-fired power plants. Please do the 

12 right thing and implement a good clean plan.

13 Thank you.

14 MS. KEMKER: Thank you.

15 Mr. Spikula.

16 MR. SPIKULA: Spikula, that's right. Um17 hm. It's Gary with one R, and Spikula is spelled 

18 S as in Sam, p as in Paul i-k-u-l-a.

19 I live here in the Atlanta area, also 

20 from Lawrenceville. And I'm going to read this 

21 so I won't -- I'll be sure not to leave anything 

22 out.

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1 I have always been a huge nature lover 

2 since my earliest childhood. Later as a biology 

3 major in college, I learned just how fragile and 

4 intricate the various life forms on this planet 

5 can be. It really saddens me as I hear about all 

6 the current disasters occurring within different 

7 species and ecosystems around the world as a 

8 result of fossil fuel pollution and the resulting 

9 climate changes.

10 These are all canaries in the coal mine 

11 of things to come for our own human populations. 

12 Weakened immune systems and genetic damage, among 

13 other things, will continue to worsen as 

14 pollution and climate change continues to sicken 

15 us and all the other magnificent forms of life on 

16 the planet.

17 In my personal life, I have seen asthma 

18 and numerous allergies in my sister and both her 

19 children here in Atlanta. I haven't developed 

20 these yet, but I have seen the filthy brown smog 

21 hovering over Atlanta for decades.

22 I am also a landscape designer here and a 

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1 passionate gardener. It has been a real 

2 challenge over the past few decades keeping even 

3 tough and hardy plants alive in the crazy weather 

4 that we've had.

5 In 1985, huge numbers of hardy long6 established trees and shrubs were frozen to the 

7 ground with the low of 8 degrees below zero 

8 Fahrenheit right here in Atlanta, in my back 

9 yard. Next came years and years of horrendous 

10 droughts. I remember well having to water at 

11 3:00 a.m. just to keep my plants alive because of 

12 the severe watering restrictions.

13 Lately, with milder winters, I've been 

14 growing many different species of palm trees and 

15 other subtropical plants, only to have these 

16 devastated this past winter by a sudden plummet 

17 down to 5 degrees Fahrenheit after mild winter 

18 temperatures no lower than the low 20s.

19 Plants need gradually colder temperatures 

20 to develop sufficient hardiness, and they 

21 certainly didn't get it.

22 I have lived in the Southeastern U.S. all 

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1 my life and have never experienced so much severe 

2 weather, explosively loud thunder, lightning, and 

3 frequent tornado warnings. We must change to 

4 safe energy sources quickly, not only to save all 

5 the other magnificent life forms, but also to 

6 save ourselves and the lives of our children.

7 I stress that there is no political issue 

8 nor energy cost issue that can ever exceed the 

9 importance --

10 [Pause.]

11 MR. SPIKULA: -- of our own lives and the 

12 lives of our precious children and the very 

13 continuation of the human species.

14 Thank you.

15 MS. KEMKER: Thank you both.

16 Our next speakers are Felicia Davis and 

17 Laura Mattox.

18 [Pause.]

19 MS. KEMKER: Ms. Davis, if you'll begin 

20 when you're ready.

21 MS. DAVIS: Sure. It's Felicia Davis, F22 e-l-i-c-i-a D-a-v-i-s. And my remarks in support 

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1 of the Clean Power Plan are drawn almost entirely 

2 from the Air of Injustice Report published in 

3 October 2002.

4 MS. KEMKER: And I'm going to ask you to 

5 get slightly closer to the mic so we can all hear 

6 you.

7 MS. DAVIS: Sure. So, well over a decade 

8 ago, we closed the Air of Injustice, African 

9 Americans and Power Plant Pollution report with a 

10 photo of the Georgia Kids Against Pollution 

11 holding posters that they created to protest 

12 power plant pollution.

13 Those kids are now grown, and a few of 

14 them have children of their own. We're all

15 pleased to know that the EPA is poised to act on 

16 carbon. I offer my testimony in support of the 

17 proposed EPA Clean Power Plan, on behalf of the 

18 Georgia Kids Against Pollution, the Georgia 

19 Coalition for the People's Agenda, and Dr. Joseph 

20 Lowry, Dr. Yvonne Scruggs-Leftwich, and the Black 

21 Leadership Forum, and Ms. Connie Tucker of the 

22 former Southern Organizing Committee for Economic 

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1 and Social Justice.

2 These groups came together more than a 

3 decade ago to help educate the black community 

4 about the impact of power plant pollution and to 

5 promote responsible public policies protective of 

6 human health and the environment.

7 Long before Katrina, Sandy, and the 

8 increased presence of tropical diseases in the 

9 U.S., we understood the need to reduce power 

10 plant emissions. The black community has a long 

11 history of struggle in pursuit of justice, and 

12 today climate change provides an inescapable 

13 scientific and moral imperative for supporting 

14 the Clean Power Plan.

15 Air of Injustice was the first report to 

16 chronicle how African Americans are affected by 

17 air pollution emitted by our nation's biggest 

18 polluters, coal-fired power plants.

19 These plants release millions of pounds 

20 of a wide variety of chemicals into the air, and 

21 the report described the relationship between 

22 power plant pollutants and environmental health 

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1 issues that have the most impact on African 

2 Americans -- pediatric asthma, infant death 

3 rates, emergency room visits, and 

4 hospitalizations, fish contamination, and climate 

5 change.

6 African Americans are at risk from power 

7 plant pollution, and power plants account, as we 

8 know, for more than 30 percent of the most 

9 permanent greenhouse-gas carbon dioxide.

10 African Americans are disproportionately 

11 affected, and because we suffer higher rates of 

12 asthma, are concentrated in urban centers, and of 

13 course, we have a historical bond with the 

14 developing world where climate change threatens 

15 already-weakened overburdened economies. For 

16 these reasons, power plant cleanup is elevated on 

17 the long list of social justice imperatives.

18 We wrote back then that power plants are 

19 at the center of the debate on climate change. 

20 We explained that coal has the highest carbon 

21 content of any fossil fuel and that CO2 is formed 

22 when coal is burned, and that health effects 

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1 would include the spread of infectious diseases.

2 By the way, then everybody laughed at me 

3 when I said that West Nile could be present in 

4 the U.S. We noted that all populations are 

5 vulnerable. A warmer climate means that more 

6 areas of the U.S. will be hospitable to insects 

7 and diseases that they spread -- malaria, Lyme 

8 disease, Dengue fever, and West Nile virus.

9 We noted that since many African 

10 Americans lack health insurance and access to 

11 medical treatment, that our community was 

12 particularly at risk. We also want to note that 

13 our President has made an effort to close the 

14 health insurance gap, which is beneficial. We're 

15 pleased that the administration is now taking 

16 decisive action to act on carbon.

17 As our report predicted, warming of the 

18 planet, together with more drought conditions in 

19 some regions and flooding in others, could and 

20 has induced crop failures, famines, flooding, and 

21 other environmental, economic, and social 

22 problems. In addition, moving forward, we want 

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1 to note that in Africa, we believe that climate 

2 change is contributing a destabilizing factor, 

3 leading to conflict in Syria and other places.

4 And fast-forward to the end, the Clean 

5 Power Plan is a breath of fresh air. And we want 

6 EPA, the U.S. Congress, President Obama, and the 

7 entire world to know that we are working 

8 aggressively to reduce carbon pollution. 

9 Thank you.

10 MS. KEMKER: Thank you.

11 All right. I have a question. Could you 

12 give me the title of the report and the year 

13 again?

14 MS. DAVIS: Sure. Air of Injustice, 

15 African Americans and Power Plant Pollution, and 

16 it's October 2002. And I'm going to leave my 

17 remarks with the gentleman, so it's in there.

18 MS. KEMKER: Thank you.

19 [Pause.]

20 MS. MATTOX: Hi. I'm Laura Mattox, L-a21 u-r-a M-a-t-t-o-x.

22 First I want to say thanks for giving the 

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1 opportunity to someone like me to come up here 

2 and speak my mind.

3 I was born in Atlanta. I grew up in the 

4 mountains of North Georgia. And I want to give 

5 ya'll just a glimpse of what my utopia looks 

6 like.

7 In my utopia, fossil fuels and coal would 

8 stay in the ground. We would practice perma9 culture instead of monoculture. We would 

10 prioritize pollinators over pesticides. We would 

11 have solar panels and windmills everywhere. We 

12 would have organic gardens in every neighborhood. 

13 We would have the production tax credit being 

14 very generous and permanent. 

15 Recently, my son and I spent a few weeks 

16 walking through Galicia, the northwest corner of 

17 Spain. And we saw windmills all over the place, 

18 just covering the ridgelines. And that was 

19 beautiful. That was a piece of my utopia.

20 And in my utopia, my son and I would 

21 never have to use our nebulizers or inhalers 

22 again.

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1 But the world around me now is not my 

2 utopia. Back in '79, I'm sure ya'll know Carter, 

3 President Carter, put some solar panels up on the 

4 White House. And at that time, he said something 

5 that prescient. "A generation from now, this can 

6 either be a curiosity, a museum piece, an example 

7 of a road not taken" -- a road not taken indeed.

8 Reagan took the panels down. And it 

9 feels like we've been moving further from my 

10 utopia ever since. But now, here you are. 

11 According to the WHO, they say, most sources of 

12 outdoor air pollution are well beyond the control 

13 of individuals and demand action by cities, as 

14 well as national and international policymakers. 

15 And that's you.

16 And I want you to be the tough-love 

17 parent and view entities like Southern Company as 

18 noisy, petulant little three-year-olds stamping 

19 their feet and yelling, "No." They act like poor 

20 victims.

21 But Southern Company is not poor. This 

22 morning, they released their earnings for the 

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1 second quarter of this year. Compared to last 

2 year, revenue went up 5.2 percent to $4.47 

3 billion, and their profits more than doubled, to 

4 $611 million.

5 And Southern Company is not a victim. It 

6 creates victims. Like most power companies 

7 around the world, it builds its plants upwind of 

8 lower-income areas.

9 The WHO says that outdoor air pollution 

10 in both cities and rural areas was estimated to 

11 cause 3.7 million premature deaths worldwide in 

12 2012. This mortality is due to exposure to 

13 particulate matter of 10 microns or less in 

14 diameter. Eighty-eight percent of those deaths 

15 were in lower-income areas.

16 We hear a lot of people talking -- at 

17 least, the last two days I've heard a lot of 

18 people speak about respiratory conditions in 

19 reference to particulate matter. According to 

20 WHO, that respiratory condition accounted for 

21 about 14 percent of those deaths.

22 A whopping 80 percent were due to heart 

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1 disease and strokes. And those were primarily 

2 due to particulate matter, 2.5 and smaller, 

3 because they can enter the bloodstream, infect 

4 the cardiovascular system. The remaining 6 

5 percent was due to cancer, mostly lung cancer.

6 And, where was I?

7 Small particulate pollution -- this is 

8 the WHO speaking -- has health impacts even at 

9 very low concentrations. Indeed, no threshold 

10 has been identified below which no damage to 

11 health is observed. The WHO aims to achieve the 

12 lowest concentration of particulate matter 

13 possible.

14 Therefore, I encourage you to not 

15 capitulate, but rather to strengthen your 

16 proposals. The National Wildlife Federation has 

17 been suggesting a 35 to 40 percent reduction 

18 would be better. The Union of Concerned 

19 Scientists says a 50 percent reduction is 

20 feasible.

21 I hope you do what the WHO urges and aim 

22 for the best that is possible. Those big 

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1 companies are looking out for themselves, and we 

2 individuals need you to look out for us.

3 My favorite scientist, E. O. Wilson, said 

4 "Competing is intense among humans. And within a 

5 group, selfish individuals always win. But in 

6 contests between groups, groups of altruists 

7 always beat groups of selfish individuals." I 

8 implore you to not only be a group of altruists, 

9 but a forceful group of altruists.

10 Thank you.

11 MS. KEMKER: Thank you both. Thank you.

12 [Pause.]

13 MS. KEMKER: Sue Gloor and Janelle 

14 Wright.

15 [Pause.]

16 MS. KEMKER: And I'd just remind you to 

17 spell your names and say them for the record.

18 Ms. Gloor, when you're ready.

19 MS. GLOOR: Hi. I'm Sue Gloor, S-u-e, 

20 surname G-l-o-o-r.

21 Good afternoon, everybody. My name is 

22 Sue, and I have lived in Atlanta for the past 

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1 seven years.

2 For four of those years, I have 

3 volunteered every Saturday morning at one of 

4 Atlanta community's organic farmers market. 

5 Seeing the farmers every week, I've gotten to 

6 know them, their families, and the stories of 

7 their farms, personally. I have grown accustomed 

8 to Georgia's predictable ebb and flow of 

9 different produce as the seasons change.

10 Sweet potatoes and hardy greens in the 

11 autumn and winter make way for tiny sweet spring 

12 strawberries in the spring, which proceed juicy 

13 summer peaches. The regularity and variety of 

14 these fruits and vegetables helps sustain the 

15 livelihoods of our local farmers.

16 But as the years have gone on, I've 

17 watched this anticipated cadence change. The 

18 changes are best shown through emails sent by the 

19 farmers market manager to all of us volunteers. 

20 Her words help illustrate the intense farming 

21 challenges that are the result of increasing 

22 climate disruption.

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1 Last July, the market manager wrote to 

2 us: "It has been a tough year with all the rain 

3 for our farmers, and it looks like this wet 

4 summer is going to carry over into fall. Rain 

5 and lower-than-normal produce, and worse, 

6 tasteless produce, has impacted the market as a 

7 whole.

8 "One farmer broke her ankle while trying 

9 to bail the mud from her fields. She has had 

10 over 15 inches of rain in the last month. 

11 Another reports losing about 50 percent of the 

12 crops planted this season, with four times the 

13 normal amount of rain.

14 "One Georgia farmer said, 'The ample 

15 rain, turning quickly into saturation, and 

16 finally, over-saturation, has limited our 

17 sunshine; brought about ideal conditions for 

18 parasites, fungi, and diseases; made certain 

19 crops flavorless; and even caused devastating 

20 floods, which wash away weeks of hard labor, 

21 topsoil, and the dollar value of anything planted 

22 in the path of the surging water.'"

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1 These experiences are not isolated to 

2 farms in Georgia or the Southeast. But Georgia's 

3 own role is massive. Georgia Power owns the 

4 first- and third-largest carbon polluters in the 

5 nation. The effect of pollution in climate 

6 disruption on farm yields is one drastic 

7 consequence of current carbon pollution in the 

8 United States, and it disproportionately impacts 

9 those who are tasked to feed their communities.

10 I have witnessed it even over the past 

11 few years. For this and other reasons, the Clean 

12 Power Plan is a crucial milestone in tackling 

13 climate disruption. It is our obligation as a 

14 community and as responsible citizens to advocate 

15 for strengthening the Clean Power Plan in three 

16 ways.

17 One, we should work toward a much larger 

18 carbon emission reduction goal of at least 40 

19 percent reductions below 2005 levels by 2020.

20 Two, states should meet the new standards 

21 of renewable energy and efficiency, because this 

22 is the fastest, cleanest, and most cost-effective 

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1 path.

2 And three, we must ensure that affected 

3 communities are engaged throughout this process 

4 and that public resources are available to help 

5 workers and communities as they make the 

6 transition to a clean energy economy.

7 The Clean Power Plan is an important 

8 step, but we can do better to motivate 

9 substantive change. Those who produce our food, 

10 and pretty much everybody else, depends on it.

11 Thank you for your attention.

12 MS. KEMKER: Thank you.

13 Thank you. Ms. Wright.

14 MS. WRIGHT: Hi. My name is Janelle 

15 Wright. That's J-a-n-e-l-l-e W-r-i-g-h-t. I'm 

16 from Powder Springs, Georgia, and a third-year at 

17 the University of Virginia, studying 

18 Environmental Science. I'm also a sustainability 

19 advocate for my school, and I currently am 

20 interning with Environment Georgia.

21 Conserving our excessive energy use has 

22 been important to me for awhile now, and I try to 

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1 encourage those around me to do the same. I was 

2 emerged in the environment as a long-time member 

3 of Girl Scouts, and I felt some sort of 

4 obligation to share my passion since then.

5 At school, our sustainability club has 

6 made a variety of efforts to limit carbon 

7 emissions, practice energy efficiency, and save 

8 energy. I think that the strong participation in 

9 these events that we organize show a passion and 

10 commitment towards some change.

11 For example, we have this thing called 

12 the dorm energy race, where in first-year dorms, 

13 they work towards saving energy by unplugging 

14 their adaptors or cutting off lights, saving 

15 wired things, and such as that. And we try to 

16 encourage the entire university to do so as well.

17 The Clean Power Plan is something that my 

18 generation cares about because we have access to 

19 the facts. And though we know that change cannot 

20 happen overnight, change must happen, especially 

21 in our lifetime.

22 Identifying the individual impacts every 

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1 person has is one simple step that, with the 

2 unified involvement, can be extremely beneficial. 

3 But I believe that beginning to take action 

4 starting with our power plants would lesson our 

5 footprint astoundingly.

6 I have heard the opposition to the plan 

7 make the case that the EPA is perhaps not 

8 considering a complete and final solution and 

9 that the cost is a heavy burden. To this, I 

10 would say that the primary cause of our situation 

11 is our dependency on these polluting energy 

12 sources time and again, only to consider 

13 renewable energy when it seems convenient.

14 The Clean Power Plan is one that will 

15 take time. And for changes to be made, I would 

16 like to see the EPA set a template of the 

17 complete plan for Georgia, detailing specific 

18 changes that must be made to invoke change. The 

19 current plan is a start, but action is key.

20 The Clean Power Plan would also, in turn, 

21 improve the health of millions of Americans, 

22 particularly those who in our society are 

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1 marginalized and at the greatest need for cleaner 

2 air. With this, though perhaps not immediate, a 

3 reduction in CO2 emissions could decrease doctor 

4 visits to treat the many types of illnesses that 

5 are directly linked to poor air quality.

6 Earlier this summer at Environment 

7 Georgia, we are working to renew the land and 

8 water conservation fund that helps to keep 

9 Georgia's drinking water clean.

10 I've noticed that those citizens that 

11 support clean water and enjoy using parks have 

12 shown a connection with the cause. Those who 

13 accept that global warming is and will continue 

14 to be a health threat or those with firsthand 

15 experience have already established this 

16 connection to the plant.

17 As we have heard, these numbers are 

18 alarmingly high, making it rare not to know or 

19 have met someone who has been directly or 

20 indirectly affected by the rise of CO2 emissions. 

21 It is now time for the Clean Power Plan to move 

22 forward. 

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1 Thank you.

2 MS. KEMKER: Thank you both. Thank you 

3 for your time.

4 Our next speaker is Rhonda Mayo.

5 [Pause.]

6 MS. MAYO: I don't know where to start. 

7 My name is Rhonda Mayo. I'm from Chicago, 

8 Illinois.

9 I was part of a pre-engineering program 

10 when I was in high school. And it's been quite 

11 some time since I graduated in 1983 from high 

12 school in New England. And my parents and 

13 siblings encouraged me to -- everyone in Chicago 

14 encouraged everyone in the state to do the best 

15 they can and to continue after high school for a 

16 college education in the '70s. And I had some 

17 really good teachers and principals, too.

18 And my mother was -- my mother's like my 

19 mentor, Constance Mayo. So I thank her, and I 

20 thank the Environmental Protection Agency for 

21 having me. It's very thoughtful.

22 And getting back to the climate question, 

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1 I applied to do some volunteer work for the 

2 President's Office in the White House a few years 

3 ago. And they had been back and forth with me, 

4 sending me memos about various subjects, asking 

5 me which one would I like to contribute toward.

6 So, they sent me the climate denier, OFA,

7 Organizing for Action, sent me memos regarding 

8 the climate change denier. At first, I thought 

9 they were joking. But I love jokes. I love 

10 comedy. And so, they sent the information to me 

11 regarding this meeting.

12 And carbon dioxide, which consists of one 

13 atom of carbon and two atoms of oxygen, and 

14 methane, which consists of four covalent bonds of 

15 hydrogen and one of carbon -- those are just two 

16 of many pollutants and toxins that are all across 

17 the country and even around the world.

18 And it's encouraging to see that, despite 

19 all the war that we've been having, globally and 

20 in Chicago, Atlanta, there's been lots of inter21 or intrastate wars, city wars, all different 

22 colors, you name it, different islands warring or 

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1 doing different states and factions and sects.

2 But getting back to the topic, it's 

3 encouraging, despite the war that's taking place, 

4 the President and his wife have done a really 

5 good job, and the former Presidents, too, have 

6 contacted me, too, the Clintons and the Bushes. 

7 They are very encouraging.

8 I had a chance to go to D.C. last 

9 December. But I didn't meet none of them. I 

10 wanted to meet all six of them. And overall, I 

11 think they've -- this country has come a long way 

12 cleaning up physical, picking up, a lot of 

13 volunteer workers. I've been doing some 

14 volunteer work. And I used to work full-time,

15 but they gave me an early retirement in '90. And 

16 I did some full-time work after that as a 

17 professional secretary, as well.

18 But getting back to the carbon dioxide 

19 pollution, pollutants and toxins, yes. We have 

20 to clean up the air for our babies and children 

21 and teenagers, young adults, older adults, and 

22 elderly, for all of us. If we want to survive as 

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1 a human race, we have to all pull them together, 

2 because we may not all look alike, but we are all 

3 -- we have one thing in common. We're human 

4 beings no matter which part of the world we're 

5 from.

6 And then, that's -- despite the war, I 

7 think that it's clear that they may -- zoning in 

8 on the carbon dioxide emissions control. And 

9 there was an environmental engineering company 

10 that I worked for once as a word processor -- I 

11 didn't work there as an engineer, but where they 

12 controlled asbestos removal.

13 And I think that same company controls 

14 also works to get rid of or to keep under control 

15 carbon dioxide, methane removal, and many other 

16 biohazards, chemical wastes, and even things like 

17 cleaning up the wetlands, like different wetlands 

18 throughout the South near the ocean and on the 

19 East Coast as well.

20 And I guess my education is still 

21 continuing. But again, I just wanted to thank 

22 the EPA, and I enjoyed yesterday and today. It 

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1 was very thoughtful and gives me something to 

2 work on. I'm going to look that up and do a 

3 little research, do a lot of research on that 

4 subject.

5 MS. KEMKER: Could you do me a favor and 

6 spell your name for the record?

7 MS. MAYO: Oh, R-h-o-n-d-a M-a-y-o.

8 MS. KEMKER: Thank you so much.

9 MS. MAYO: Oh, thank you, too.

10 MS. KEMKER: Our next speaker is Gloria 

11 Tatum.

12 [Pause.] 

13 MS. TATUM: Good evening. My name is 

14 Gloria Tatum, T-a-t-u-m. And I'm just another 

15 person who wants clean air and clean water and 

16 healthy children.

17 I want to thank you for the opportunity 

18 to speak in support of reduced carbon emissions 

19 from coal plants and ask you to please, please 

20 remove all support for nuclear power from the 

21 final version of the Clean Power Plan.

22 Nuclear is not clean, safe, or cheap. 

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1 Your plan ignores nuclear's destructive impact on 

2 water resources and the enormous amounts of toxic 

3 and radioactive waste that it creates from the 

4 beginning, of Native Reservations with the 

5 uranium mining to radioactive discharges during 

6 routine operations, to 80,000 tons of radioactive 

7 waste that no one knows how to safely store for 

8 the thousands of years it will remain dangerous 

9 to human health and the environment.

10 We can store it for maybe 20, 30, 50 

11 years, but we don't have any way to store it. We 

12 have no permanent storage. And this is very, 

13 very dangerous for future generations.

14 Your plan does not consider the health 

15 costs and environmental consequences of accidents 

16 like Fukushima and Chernobyl. Radiation is an 

17 invisible killer. You cannot see, touch, taste, 

18 or feel it. But the more radiation in the 

19 environment, the more cancer in the population.

20 We seem to be experiencing a creeping 

21 plutocracy that is rapidly eroding our democracy, 

22 an energy plutocracy where destruction of the 

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1 environment and people's health can be 

2 rationalized, justified, and ignored, a system 

3 that puts profits for dirty and dangerous energy 

4 above our children's health, a system that 

5 justifies fracking, which injects toxins into the 

6 earth and poisons our drinking water.

7 A system that blows up mountains for the 

8 coal and gives miners black lung disease. A 

9 system that creates nuclear power, and this is --

10 every nuclear power plant leaks tritium. And 

11 it's systematically released, also, into the air, 

12 soil, and water. It causes birth defects and 

13 cancer. And these are increased around nuclear 

14 power plants.

15 A system that creates more and more 

16 nuclear waste that will contaminate and kill 

17 future generations for thousands of years.

18 Whatever you call the system, it is a 

19 system where madness rules and spiritual values 

20 and connection to the earth and the people does 

21 not exist, where responsibility for the 

22 environmental destruction, the dead dying and 

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1 sick people caused by the dirty energy industry 

2 are not recognized.

3 Now, I'm going to read a very short 

4 portion of a statement from the indigenous elders 

5 and medicine people's council on Fukushima. I'll 

6 give you the full statement, but I'm only reading 

7 a couple of paragraphs. And this was from South 

8 America and North America. It was a huge council 

9 of all of these native people.

10 "Not heeding warnings from both nature 

11 and people of the earth keeps us on the path of 

12 self-destruction. Powerful technologies are out 

13 of control and are threatening the future of all 

14 life. This self-destructive path has led to the 

15 Fukushima nuclear crisis, the Gulf Oil spill, tar 

16 sands devastation, pipeline failures, impacts of 

17 carbon dioxide emissions, and destruction of 

18 ground water through hydraulic fracking -- this 

19 is just to name a few.

20 "We are connected to Mother Earth and 

21 understand she is the source of all of our life, 

22 not a resource to be exploited. We've got to 

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1 stop waging war against Mother Earth and 

2 ourselves. We must work in unity to help Mother 

3 Earth heal so that she can bring back balance and 

4 harmony for all of her children."

5 I'm going to give ya'll the full 

6 statement from them.

7 The Environmental Protection Agency is 

8 supposed to protect us. And I'm asking you to do 

9 your job and remove support for nuclear energy in 

10 your plan. Fracking, which is really destroying 

11 the water -- we can't live without the water. 

12 And, of course, reduce the emissions which we're 

13 very grateful that you're considering that.

14 We don't have to continue going down this 

15 road of self-destruction. It's time to change 

16 from the dirty, old, outdated business model to 

17 clean renewables like solar, wind, hydro18 election, and conservation, where people can have 

19 jobs that do not pollute the air, water, and soil 

20 and make people sick and die.

21 Renewables will create millions of life22 sustaining jobs. And we have so much sun in the 

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1 South. We don't need another nuclear plant, two 

2 of them.

3 MS. KEMKER: Ms. Tatum, if you'll wrap up 

4 your --

5 MS. TATUM: One sentence. Thank you.

6 I'm asking you to also support returning 

7 all the revenue from the carbon tax credit to the 

8 people, which will provide an economic stimulus, 

9 along with all the jobs we get from renewables. 

10 The people aren't going to be hurt. Thank you.

11 MS. KEMKER: Thank you for your time.

12 [Pause.]

13 MS. KEMKER: We'll make sure those are in

14 the record. Thank you.

15 And are there -- we have no registered 

16 speakers at this time. Do we have anyone in the 

17 room who would like to speak?

18 [No audible response.]

19 MS. KEMKER: Seeing none, we will recess 

20 until 6:00 p.m., at which time we will resume at 

21 least in Room A, and make the determination at 

22 six o'clock whether or not we'll reopen both 

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1 rooms, depending on speaker demand.

2 So, thank you for your time, and thank 

3 you for your comments.

4 [Whereupon, at 4:55 p.m., the Proposed 

5 Clean Power Plan for Existing Power Plants Public 

6 Hearing concluded.] 

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