U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800

Fax: (202) 512–2250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402–0001

78–291 2002

PROTECTING SMALL BUSINESS AND NATIONAL

PARKS: THE GOALS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE

FIELD HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

WEST YELLOWSTONE, MONTANA, JANUARY 26, 2002

Serial No. 107–40

Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business

(

(II)

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

DONALD MANZULLO, Illinois, Chairman

LARRY COMBEST, Texas

JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado

ROSCOE G. BARTLETT, Maryland

FRANK A. LOBIONDO, New Jersey

SUE W. KELLY, New York

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio

PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania

JIM DEMINT, South Carolina

JOHN R. THUNE, South Dakota

MICHAEL PENCE, Indiana

MIKE FERGUSON, New Jersey

DARRELL E. ISSA, California

SAM GRAVES, Missouri

EDWARD L. SCHROCK, Virginia

FELIX J. GRUCCI, JR., New York

TODD W. AKIN, Missouri

SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania

NYDIA M. VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York

JUANITA MILLENDER-MCDONALD,

California

DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois

BILL PASCRELL, JR., New Jersey

DONNA M. CHRISTENSEN, Virgin Islands

ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania

TOM UDALL, New Mexico

STEPHANIE TUBBS JONES, Ohio

CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas

DAVID D. PHELPS, Illinois

GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California

BRIAN BAIRD, Washington

MARK UDALL, Colorado

JAMES R. LANGEVIN, Rhode Island

MIKE ROSS, Arkansas

BRAD CARSON, Oklahoma

ANI ́BAL ACEVEDO-VILA ́ , Puerto Rico

DOUG THOMAS, Staff Director

PHIL ESKELAND, Deputy Staff Director

MICHAEL DAY, Minority Staff Director

(III)

C O N T E N T S

Page

Hearing held on January 26, 2002 ......................................................................... 1

WITNESSES

Mainella, Hon. Fran, Director, National Park Service ......................................... 1

Walker, Robert, Flagg Ranch Resort ...................................................................... 12

Seely, Clyde, Yellowstone Tour & Travel .............................................................. 13

Buller, Melissa, Free Heel and Wheel ................................................................... 15

Mathews, Jackie, Greater Yellowstone Coalition .................................................. 17

Loomis, Glen, Yellowstone Motorsport .................................................................. 19

APPENDIX

Opening statements:

Manzullo, Hon. Donald .................................................................................... 45

Prepared statements:

Mainella, Hon. Fran ......................................................................................... 47

Walker, Robert .................................................................................................. 52

Seely, Clyde ....................................................................................................... 58

Buller, Melissa .................................................................................................. 73

Mathews, Jackie ............................................................................................... 75

Loomis, Glen ..................................................................................................... 146

Additional Information:

Statement of Congressman Rush D. Holt ....................................................... 157

Letter to Hon. Norton from SBA ..................................................................... 160

Letter to Committee from Scott Carsley, owner, Yellowstone Aplen

Guides ............................................................................................................ 173

Letter to Chairman Manzullo from Senator Baucus ..................................... 180

Letter to Chairman Manzullo from Peter Grant ........................................... 182

Bozeman Daily Chronicle article ‘‘Congressman Stands up for

Snowmobilers’’ ............................................................................................... 184

(1)

PROTECTING SMALL BUSINESS AND NATIONAL PARKS: THE GOALS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE

SATURDAY, JANUARY 26, 2002

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,

Washington, DC.

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10 a.m., at the Holiday

Inn SunSpree Resort, 315 Yellowstone Avenue, West Yellowstone,

Montana, Hon. Donald A. Manzullo (chair of the Committee) presiding.

Chairman MANZULLO. The United States House of Representatives Committee on Small Business will come to order. Can you

hear back there? Is this on?

AUDIENCE. No.

Chairman MANZULLO. Is that better; can you hear me back

there?

AUDIENCE. No.

Chairman MANZULLO. Got to get it real close. We’re going to hold

off on opening formalities and opening statements and move immediately into the testimony of Fran Mainella; is that right, who’s——

Ms. MAINELLA. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO [continuing]. The Director of the National

Park Service, who just happened to be in West Yellowstone on the

day we scheduled this hearing. So I’m going to move immediately

into your testimony. If you want to take a minute to introduce the

people that are with you and the directors, et cetera.

STATEMENT OF FRAN P. MAINELLA, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL

PARK SERVICE

Ms. MAINELLA. I’d be glad to. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, very

pleased to be here. I’m Fran Mainella, National Park Service Director. I do want to introduce to everyone, if we could have a moment.

Currently, our acting superintendent for Yellowstone, Frank

Walker, if you would please stand. And our incoming superintendent for Yellowstone, Suzanne Lewis, will you please stand.

Our acting superintendent for the Grand Tetons, Steve Iobst, if you

would please stand. And our incoming superintendent for the Tetons, Steve Martin, would you please stand. And also, we have with

us Karen Wade, who is our regional director for all these parks,

about 80 some though actually, throughout your area—90. The

number continues to grow. And I just want to say thank you. I

also—we have a number of people here from the Park Service but

2

I want to thank all of them for being here and also all of you and

Mr. Chairman and Congressman Rehberg. I appreciate your willingness to allow me to speak for a few minutes today.

I think the importance, as you know, of Yellowstone is not only

just an importance to this community and to this Nation and internationally, and it is important that all of us give it the energy and

time and I appreciate your consideration of this.

One of the areas that I’ve probably been best known for and I

was previously—I know some folks will—how much snowmobiling

has she done? She’s from the State of Florida. I was twelve years

the State park director in Florida, but I have—I originally grew up

in New England. I have some experience with snowmobiles.

But I think the biggest thing that—I am familiar with working

with communities. And that is something that I think that you’ll

find that you particularly, as we hired our new—two new superintendents, one of the things we looked at is not only their knowledge of the resources and their ability to work in both visitor services and resource management, but also their ability to partner and

work with communities. And I think you’ll see that as an important part. It’s an important part of any efforts.

And you know Secretary Norton, Secretary of the Interior, she

talks about the importance of partnership and the importance of

working with communities. And you will see that consistently as

we go through our supplemental EIS as well as anything we do

with national parks throughout this Nation.

We also know that we always have the balancing act that we

make sure we protect those resources. We do not want impairment

but we also want them for future generations as well as making

sure that there is proper, environmentally appropriate access to

our parks and also respectful—and I think in your particular Committee, the economic impacts that parks play in this community

but across this Nation. And it’s something that I think is very important for us. In fact, when I was in Florida, I served on the commission on tourism because of the realization that parks play such

an important part in the economy of that particular State and also

in the tourism role. But again that balancing that you must do between resources and the economic impact and the ability to make

sure that we are all working at a successful manner.

As we go forth, as you know at this point, there has been a decision made back in November of 2000, that was going to move us

from any snowmobiles in the park at all to solely snow coaches

over—in a phase out program. The Committee that had come

forth—in fact, the Small Business Committee that had expressed

some concern on that to Secretary Norton, I believe, that took place

just recently, prior to the June time was—expressed some concern

about the economic analysis that was done that is required due to

the Flexibility Act and the Fairness Act that acquires those things

to be addressed. And this is something that as we go through the

supplemental EIS, we will continue to look at the economic analysis and make sure that those appropriate reviews are done, and

we will live up to those statutes.

But at the same time what we want to make sure is that we

move forward with our supplemental EIS, and I want to commend

both Steve Iobst and Frank Walker, particularly what we’ve been

3

doing most recently with kind of a pilot program this winter, with

working with the communities more than we have ever done in the

past; doing programs with the hotels and other areas. I was being

briefed even more on that this morning, talk about proper using,

proper—working well with the community. Selling passes at the

chamber of commerce rather than at the gate as you enter the park

and all the benefits that has provided, not only environmentally

and probably for the comfort of the snowmobilers, but also for the

partnership ability to have us all be working together at a greater

manner.

In June of—29th of 2001, the Secretary did decide that we do

move forward with a supplemental EIS. We’re in that process now

and in fact we would expect that very shortly, in the next week or

two in February, we will be going on the west—on the Internet for

the four alternatives that expect to come forward. And I think that

it’s a more diverse grouping than what we have seen in the past.

We’ll be having that go on.

The actual comment period won’t begin until approximately

March 29th, as far as the official 60 day, where the clock begins.

But we want to encourage comments even earlier. That’s why we’re

getting it on the Web early on, so that people can give comments.

We’ve been working start moving forward with making determinations of how we go forward. And it’s supposed to be, I believe November of 2002, for us to have the final determination on what

we’re going forward with as far as either continuing the original

rule that came forward or going with one of the alternatives or

some variation off of one of those alternatives.

At this point again, I think the most important thing is I wanted

you to make sure you knew that we are very respectful of our obligations that we need to be making in the meeting, as far as the

Flexibility Act and the Fairness Act that is required as we go

through this process, and I think we’re again going to be working

with outside sources to help us make sure those analyses are done

in a way that we feel can be substantiated and have the good

science behind them so that we can go forward.

The only other things I want to just talk about again is the importance that the Secretary, Secretary Norton, plays on what she

calls her four cc’s, dealing with conservation but also make sure we

also have cooperation, consultation and communication taking

place at all times. I think when she and the President selected me

to serve, that was part of what they saw in me and my past history, and I think what I will see from the superintendents that are

coming on here as well as the past—some of the other folks that

we have been working with, I think know that these are important

parts to play and we will get our commitment to be working in that

direction. I would welcome questions and again, you have my written testimony.

Chairman MANZULLO. The written testimony will be made part

of the testimony.

[Ms. Mainella’s statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. Mr. Rehberg.

Mr. REHBERG. Thank you. And, Ms. Mainella, thank you for

being with us. We appreciate the opportunity timely as it was to

have you here and nice to meet you.

4

Ms. MAINELLA. Thank you.

Mr. REHBERG. Within the various alternatives that you will be

considering, once they’re placed on the Internet and into the record,

they can be amended thereafter based upon the context or do you

have—context from the public or do you have to make a decision

based upon the alternatives presented on the Internet and ultimately put up——

Ms. MAINELLA. I will—periodically you’ll see me turn over to my

legislative counsel and also—my understanding is we put out four

alternatives but in the end we could end up, based on comments

and input, with some variation that may spin off of one of those.

Mr. REHBERG. Based upon your prior history then of community

involvement, that’s the reason for this hearing, that’s the reason I

had the Missouri Breaks, the new monument up there, to try to

bring additional input, give everybody their opportunity to have

their day in court. Do you foresee consideration within your alternatives for the peripheral impact on the community?

And where I’m going with this is there are four million spring

and summer visitors to Yellowstone Park. If there is something

that disrupts the provision of services in the winter that may end

up costing businesses their opportunity to do business and then

there would not be the opportunity to have enough beds, motel

rooms, restaurants in West Yellowstone for the spring and summer

population, will your consideration of snowmobile usage within the

park put in the consideration to the community for things that will

ultimately benefit the park? Because you don’t want to have to create that opportunity within the park.

Ms. MAINELLA. We always love to work with our gateway communities and find ways to provide opportunities in those gateway

communities to meet some of the needs of the park. And as we get

input and again, the Secretary, myself, and I think all our staff are

really receptive to hearing from different opportunities.

And as you know, we have been experimenting with different

gateway community—there’s even some legislation I believe that is

trying to move forward, not dealing so much with Yellowstone but

just dealing with how can we work better, with—not just we as national parks but public lands as a whole, work better with our gateway communities. Because oftentimes we want to make sure the

resources—hopefully we always want to make sure our resources

are well protected in our parks, but in doing that it may mean if

there is a need for more beds or other things, that the gateway

communities can help us meet that endeavor.

In fact, we’ve even been looking at and this is kind of a spin off—

we’re doing a pilot that will be coming forth shortly on how we can

do housing additionally besides being in the park for our own employees, but work with our gateway communities to find abilities

to put some of our employees housing; and many of that’s here already. And many of that’s here already. Because partnerships are

win-win. Winning means the park has to make sure that resources

are well protected, the visitors well served, but also we need to

make sure we work well with the community. So everybody—no

one maybe gets exactly all that they’re looking for but basically we

feel like each has a win taking place.

5

Mr. REHBERG. Will those kind of alternatives show up in the— those kinds of ideas show up in the alternative?

Ms. MAINELLA. I think it’s all going to depend on the comments

that come in, because we shouldn’t probably predetermine in advance what those comments are going to be until we open them,

but we would want to be reflective of those comments and then

make determinations that could hopefully reflect some of those options.

Mr. REHBERG. One final question, Mr. Chairman, and that is the

chicken and the egg situation. We talked about snow coaches, but

if they’re not available, they’re not available. Ford Motor Company

has stepped forward on the buses in Glacier Park. They don’t seem

to be moving quite as quickly for one reason or another. Are you

going to be able to take administratively a position of if certain

things happen then this decision will be made, but if this doesn’t

happen in a timely fashion, there will be an economic disruption

to the community and X will happen. Can you do that within the

alternatives and ultimately?

Ms. MAINELLA. My understanding, we can, you know, as the alternatives, we can look at the alternatives, there’s four to give comment on; but as we work off—I know one of the—already just from

the cooperators and others, we ended up moving like an additional

One-A and One-B alternative to make Ford—to push back even

consideration to snow coaches as quickly as the record of decision

would come forth because of not having the possibility of having

them in place. You can’t put something in a game plan if you can’t

produce that option. So you have to be ready to make whatever

modifications are ready to do, you know, to reflect what—what is

realistic.

Mr. REHBERG. So you would be able to spread out the time of,

if there is a phasing down of the number of machines per day—— Ms. MAINELLA. That very well could be. Again, the only thing we

can do is—and I think the advice we’ve been given is make sure

when you go out with those alternatives, you’re here—we’re here

to listen, take input and then formulate from those ideas and a

work with our cooperators and help with that cooperation.

Mr. REHBERG. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman MANZULLO. I have a question as to the procedure, my

understanding is that you’re working with a supplemental EIS?

Ms. MAINELLA. That’s correct sir.

Chairman MANZULLO. That will be done when?

Ms. MAINELLA. We’re supposed to have the—that out on the

Internet, I would say February—in the second week of February,

is that—end of the second week of February. And so that will be

the four alternatives to at least start making comment on. Our official—where we print hard copy, not via the Internet but hard copy

will be coming out in March. I think that final has to be out and

circulated March 29th and then they have 60 days. That’s where

the official legal clock begins. But we want to get it out, use our

Internet as a method to get this message out more aggressively so

people could have more input time to make those comments and

make sure we’re hearing and responding accordingly.

Chairman MANZULLO. When is the proposed rule going to be

issued?

6

Ms. MAINELLA. I would ask the—— Mr. IOBST. Rule is published on the same—— Ms. MAINELLA. This is Steve Iobst.

Mr. IOBST. The proposed rule would be published through the

Federal Register, March 29th, supplemental, draft supplemental

comes out for public review and March 29th when you begin the

notice of availability for the Federal Register on proposed rule.

Ms. MAINELLA. That’s where comments start coming in.

Mr. IOBST. And they basically parallel each other.

Ms. MAINELLA. I think what the chairman has asked, maybe, if

I may, is when—I think it’s November of 2002 when the actual

final rule comes forth again.

Mr. IOBST. That’s correct. November 15th.

Ms. MAINELLA. November 15th. So that’s—— Chairman MANZULLO. Isn’t the preferred method to have a period of time to comment on the supplemental EIS and then come

out with the proposed rule? The way I look at it here, you could

get all the information you want on the supplemental EIS, but I

don’t know if that information would be going into the proposed

rule, because—— Ms. MAINELLA. We’re mandated to work from that—those—from

the supplemental EIS to lead into that rule. And so as we go forth,

what would be the—as we come up with draft rule following the— when does the—after the 60 day comment period closes, which

would be April 29th—May 29th, from there, Steve, then once that

closes, then we go into a process of actually starting to draft some

kind of final rule that would come out as a result of that; is that

right?

Mr. IOBST. Draft both the final supplemental EIS as well as the

final rule.

Ms. MAINELLA. Final rule and final—because this is still a draft

EIS.

Mr. IOBST. And the draft EIS leads towards the record of decision

which is the closure of the NEPA and the final rule is the closure

of the rule making process. That’s the reason why those are paralleling, is that’s the time frame.

Ms. MAINELLA. The settlement agreement set that time on it.

Chairman MANZULLO. I guess my question is if people want to

have input on the supplemental EIS and on those who are drafting

the rule, wouldn’t you want the benefit of all those comments before you do the proposed rule?

Ms. MAINELLA. We won’t do the proposed rule until after all

those comments have come in. In other words, you’re going to go

through all of——

Chairman MANZULLO. But the proposed rule is going to be open

for comment at the same time as the supplemental EIS. Why don’t

you come up—Steve, why don’t you introduce yourself.

Ms. MAINELLA. I think there’s a microphone right over there.

Chairman MANZULLO. That’s why we bring our assistants with

us, to answer the technical questions.

Ms. MAINELLA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. IOBST. That’s Steve Iobst. The last name is I–O–B as in boy,

S–T, the acting superintendent at Grand Teton National Park. The

approach that we’re talking on the development of a proposed rule

7

that again parallels the same time frame as the draft supplemental

EIS is that what we are going to do is—what we are proposing to

do with the proposing rule is to extend the phase in period of the

decision and so that when somebody sees the proposed rule, basically we are proposing to extend the implementation that then allows us to go through the supplemental environmental impact

statement process, to final supplemental and then develop a final

rule after the SEIS process is complete. So in effect, what you’re

suggesting is actually what’s going to happen. But in order to meet

the requirements of the settlement agreement, we do have to publish a proposed rule at the same time we come out with a draft

supplemental EIS.

Chairman MANZULLO. I guess my question is that. I wasn’t privy

to the lawsuit or the settlement obviously, but how can you possibly draft a proposed rule without having the ability to look at the

supplemental EIS and all the changes. The supplemental EIS is

what drives the proposed rule.

Mr. IOBST. That’s correct, and that’s why we are heading towards

doing a proposed rule that does nothing more than delay implementation of the current—— Chairman MANZULLO. I understand. That gives you the leeway

to——

Ms. MAINELLA [continuing]. Covers us so we cannot have to be

implementing the current rule by giving—— Chairman MANZULLO. I understand.

Mr. REHBERG. But you will still be following the law of public

participation because they will still have the legitimate time to respond to the comments that came up that did not fit into the supplemental EIS.

Mr. IOBST. That’s correct.

Mr. REHBERG. They will still—there will not be an opportunity

then to delay one more time either through a lawsuit or some other

argument because the dates were not met after you’ve considered

the variables to the supplemental EIS?

Mr. IOBST. That’s correct. We’ll have that public comment period,

again both to the draft rule as well as to the draft supplemental,

realizing that the comment period for the draft rule is not a draft

rule that implements an alternative. It just delays—defers implementation so that again there will be the opportunity to have a

record of decision that is—that completes the EIS process, and then

after which there will be a final rule making, a proposed final rule

making process that will implement.

Mr. REHBERG. Did the settlement document you mentioned November 15th of 2002, is that the drop dead——

Mr. IOBST. That is in the settlement agreement.

Mr. REHBERG. It has to be done by——

Mr. IOBST. That’s correct.

Ms. MAINELLA. And we’ve been appreciative of all the folks working with us because we want to get it on the Internet, but we want

to make sure we have as much input on the front side. That’s why

we’ve been working with different options. The folks here in the

community, the cooperators and others that have worked with us

in allowing to us—originally we were going to get on the Internet

on January 21st or something of that nature. But because we wantVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:39 May 23, 2002 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00011 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 D:\DISC\78291.XXX txed01 PsN: txed01
8

ed to get more input on that before we went on the Internet—I

guarantee we will be having, you know, input, plenty of time for

input. In fact we’re going beyond the legal requirements of input

by doing it on the Internet before the actual clock starts ticking.

Chairman MANZULLO. Is the Internet site up?

Ms. MAINELLA. Pardon?

Chairman MANZULLO. Is the Internet site up yet?

Ms. MAINELLA. That’s part—that’s the part that’s a little bit of

a challenge right now.

Mr. IOBST. We realize the implications of the Department of the

Interior National Park Service Internet site. Therefore we are establishing a commercial Website to post of the Website on.

Chairman MANZULLO. Do you have the address of the Website?

Mr. IOBST. It’s WWW—is—no, that’s not what it is.

Ms. MAINELLA. We will make sure—— Mr. IOBST. We don’t have that yet. It’s a commercial site that

we’re actually establishing through a commercial firm in Jackson,

Wyoming. When we do the announcement of its availability on the

Internet, which will be sometime around the first week, beginning

of the first week of February, anticipating taking a few days to get

it up and running, that will be announced and we also are—people

that have been involved in this process starting back in early 1998,

which is up—a mailing list of up to about 85 thousand, they all get

a post card that has the Internet site on it as well as do they want

a copy to be mailed to them on March 29th. So there will be a— and then we’ll be public—you know, press releases through news

media out of Yellowstone and Denver and Grand—and Jackson,

Grand Teton National Park, announcing the availability on the

Website and what that Website is.

Ms. MAINELLA. And we will, Mr. Chairman, make sure the Committee has all that information so we will make sure you receive

that.

Chairman MANZULLO. I have no further questions.

Mr. REHBERG. I do not either.

Chairman MANZULLO. Appreciate the fact that you’re here coincidentally and able to appear with us Steve.

Ms. MAINELLA. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman MANZULLO. You have an airplane to catch.

Ms. MAINELLA. Actually, Mr. Chairman, I’m going to be doing

some snow coaching, snowmobiling and a few other experiences

and a chance again to visit with some of your constituents just yesterday, and they all wish you the best.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you so much. If we could have the

second panel come up. Phil, if you could put a chair there, as we

have each person testify, I’m just going to have them move to the

place where Director Mainella was sitting, that way, get better eye

contact with the public. Second panel.

What we’re going to do is the witnesses up here will give their

testimony then Congressman Rehberg and I will ask them questions. And then we’re going to do something a little bit unusual for

congressional committees. We’re going to set up a public microphone out there and if you want to give a comment, we’ll have to

put a time limitation on it. We’ll see where we are and then just

line up to give the comments and we’ll have to cut it off after a

9

certain period of time. We’re missing somebody. Bob. Is Bob Coe

here? No. Well, let’s move into our opening statements and do some

of the formalities now.

You might want to ask yourself a question, why did the Chairman of the Committee on Small Business travel from Washington,

DC, to West Yellowstone, Montana, to convene a field hearing on

snowmobile access to America’s national parks and in particular,

Yellowstone National Park.

This Small Business Committee has spent a considerable amount

of time dealing with the Federal Government in two aspects. One

is in the regulatory aspect and the other is in the competitive. We

were able, in hearings this past year, to do a couple of things. It

was a small business hearing that stopped the Department of the

Army from buying black berets for our servicemen and women from

China and other countries. So you can thank us for being out on

the leading edge of that in a very contentious 41⁄2 hour hearing.

The Small Business Committee had to subpoena in several witnesses and several documents to put an end to the disgraceful

practice carried on by our own government in preferring foreign

competitors for clothing and shoes as opposed to our domestic competitors. That law has now been changed. It’s back into effect

where it was before and it resulted in saving literally hundreds of

jobs.

Secondly, we got involved with the Veterans Administration

when they decided to go into the commercial laundry business.

They were contracting for colleges and universities and hotels. We

held a hearing in Washington, and stopped that practice. Someone

from the VA came in and said, Congressman, we understand that

the VA should not be in competition with small businesses. That

decision by the VA saved a hundred jobs in the congressional district that I represent, which is the northern part of Illinois.

We also got involved with the Federal Prison Industries. This is

an organization that makes products in the Federal prisons at

wages that are about 25 cents an hour. So when people talk about

importing things from China and other countries where they pay

low wages, the United States itself is one of the lowest wage payers. And we got the Federal Prison Industries out of making electronics because they were knocking out hundreds if not thousands

of American jobs.

So that’s why we’re here. We’re concerned many times about an

overactive government or a government that’s lost its focus. This

came to our attention several years ago when we discovered the

trail of snowmobiling starts in the national park here and in West

Yellowstone, but it has a national impact. It’s a seven to eight billion dollar industry. And so we’re here to talk about that. Talk

about the economic impact and obviously, balancing that with the

necessity to have a good environment.

My wife is a microbiologist who traveled with me but unfortunately, she’s ill this morning and she’s in the room. She understands this. I’ve practiced a lot of environmental law when I was

in the private sector. We also have a teenager who’s a severe asthmatic, so we have a distinct interest in making sure that the environment is clean.

10

The recreational use of snowmobiles has a significant economic

impact on small businesses in small rural communities dependent

upon winter tourism, including West Yellowstone, Montana. Production of use of snowmobiles contributes seven to eight billion dollars in the American economy, creates roughly 75 thousand jobs,

most of which are located in small businesses. When the National

Park Service issued its final rule phasing out snowmobiles in Yellowstone National Park, it determined that the final rule would not

have a significant economic impact on a substantial number of

small entities. A drive through West Yellowstone, Montana, quickly

will demonstrate the fallacy of that conclusion. That’s when the

Small Business Committee and the Small Business Administration

through Office of Advocacy got involved and said this is small business.

Almost all the businesses in West Yellowstone are small and in

the winter depend heavily on income from snowmobilers. In turn,

the community of West Yellowstone, Montana, relies on those businesses and the tax revenue from tourists to provide public resources. Today’s hearing is designed to demonstrate that protecting

the beauty of Yellowstone National Park need not come at the expense of America’s small businesses and rural communities.

At today’s hearing, we have heard from Director Mainella about

the decision making process. In addition, we’ll hear from people

who live near the park about the impact that snowmobiling has on

their businesses and communities. We look forward to your testimony for ideas that you may have on ways to accomplish the preservation of the park and preservation of the rural economic base.

The normal standard is to limit your testimony to five minutes

each. When you start approaching five minutes, you’ll notice I get

a little bit fidgety. When you start running over five minutes, you

hear the tapping. If you go too far beyond that, then the tapping

turns to a mallet smash. So—before I get into that, all the testimony that the witnesses have and any testimony of the audience,

written testimony provided does not exceed two single-spaced

pages—from the audience—will be made part of the permanent

record. We’ll keep that open for 3 weeks from today.

And we have letters from Senator Thomas and Senator Baucus.

[The information may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. Mr. Rehberg, when you give the opening

statements will you introduce the representatives from the various

senatorial and congressional offices? Thank you.

Mr. REHBERG. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank

you for coming to Montana on an issue that we feel is very important to the State of Montana, from whatever side you come down.

And you’ll find in this State that natural resources and some of the

conflict that exists within natural resources is one of the most emotional issues that occurs within our State and we’re continuing trying to find ways to ameliorate the problems on both sides and trying to find some kind of a common ground; and so I appreciate you

coming out.

This is a first for me, of course, this has been a year of firsts.

I’m sworn in as your new United States Congressman, representing

the entire State of Montana, on January third. This is my first official congressional hearing, and I thank you for coming out and

11

doing that. It’s a little hard for me as well, the formality, because

we’re used to having town hall meetings in Montana where it’s

kind of rag tag, and everybody gets an opportunity—yeah, take

your tie off and we’ll just invite everybody to come and sit up here.

It was important enough that I invited the Small Business Committee out to listen to the concerns within the community. Now

you’ll notice that this is not the Environmental and Public Works

Committee, and it is specifically the Small Business Committee.

The thing that happens in government more often than not is

one element or another doesn’t feel their government is listening

to them. Sometimes that works for us, sometimes it works against

us. When the government makes the decision we agree with, we

say no more public input; you’ve studied this thing to death, let’s

make the decision and move forward. Well, the other side says

well, that’s not fair. That’s what’s occurring in this situation.

The small business community and the community of West Yellowstone felt like the last administration didn’t fully hear their perspective on the economic impacts that were going to occur to their

families. What I’ve tried to accomplish over the years as your congressman is to create an opportunity or an environment for the discussion to have an ability for all sides to be heard. This is not intended to be a free for all, this is intended to provide information

so that the right decisions can be made by our National Park Service within the executive branch. Until such time as we feel like everybody has had their opportunity in court or their opportunity to

provide that input, then we will continue having meetings like this.

So the Small Business Committee is here today to hear specifically

from people, their perspective on whether there will be an economic

impact on the community. And that’s only fair. I think everybody

agrees that that’s only fair.

Consensus is always a hard thing to find, but I prefer the consensus process. I created the consensus council in Montana for the

specific purposes of trying to find common grounds so people don’t

divvy in the corners and end up having to hire attorneys and sue

their way back out. I’ve teamed up with Governor Mark Racicot,

former Governor, now in Washington, DC, and we’ve introduced

legislation to create the national consensus council. It’s not in place

to help us with this process, but it’s a good format to follow.

And if you believe in the holistic approach, you will agree with

our proposal of hearing from all sides, whether it be an environmental impact statement or an economic impact statement on the

type of impacts that will occur within communities such as West

Yellowstone, who are created merely to service the public that are

coming to access our parks. And if they don’t exist, then either people are going to want additional construction within their parks by

the government, concessionaires or there will be a problem because

there will not be the opportunities to have the motel rooms necessary or the facilities necessary to house them when they come to

participate in their national park.

I would like to quickly introduce those members, and I’ll just

have them stand up and wave at the audience, who are here from

other congressional offices. We have a representative from Barbara

Cubin’s office, the Congresswoman from Wyoming. Would you

stand up. Thank you for being here. We have a representative—

12

two, actually, from Senator Conrad Burns’ office. Would you both

stand up and wave. There’s one. And there’s a representative from

Max Baucus’ office. Is anybody here from Senator Enzi or Senator

Thomas’ office? We understand that they did submit written testimony, and we thank you all for being involved.

At this time I will introduce the four representatives from Montana that I have invited to be a part of this panel. They are my

constituents, and first is Jackie Mathews, Greater Yellowstone Coalition and the Blue Ribbon Flies of West Yellowstone; Clyde Seely

of Yellowstone Tour and Travel. And Clyde, we thank you in addition for being here, also turning over your facility to this congressional hearing. That’s very kind of you. Glen Loomis from the Yellowstone Motorsports of West Yellowstone; and Melissa Buller of

Free Heel and Wheel of West Yellowstone. We thank you for being

here. The other two members of the panel are from the State of

Wyoming, at the request of the Wyoming delegation. Bob Coe, who

has not shown up yet. He’s with the Tepee Resort in Cody, and Bob

Walker from the Flagg Ranch Resort from Moran.

Chairman MANZULLO. Mr. Walker, we’ll look forward to your testimony. It’s a five-minute clock, and I presume you’ll summarize

this lengthy statement that you gave me. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT WALKER, FLAGG RANCH RESORT

Mr. WALKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Congressman. My name

is Robert Walker and I’m the CEO, majority owner of International

Leisure Host, a public corporation of about 600 people. International Leisure Host operates Flagg Ranch Resort, which is located about two miles from the south entrance to Yellowstone. During the winter we offer cabin rentals, food and beverage service,

gasoline, sales and other merchandise. In addition, we provide a

staging point for the snow coaches and other snowmobiling operations from the south end of the park and from Jackson; Our contract is a concession contract with the National Park Service. The

concession contract began in 1989. It terminates in 2009, so we

have about seven or eight years to go yet.

The phase out of snowmobiling, since it’s about 90 percent of our

income, will obviously cause us a financial situation which we will

probably close Flagg Ranch in the wintertime. The financial effects

in summary during the balance of our contract will be a loss of revenue of about ten million dollars. The net income loss to the corporation for the remainder of the contract will be about one million

eight hundred thousand dollars based on the last two years of operation.

We employ about 50 people during the wintertime at a gross salary of about 225 thousand dollars; and obviously, if we close, both

the employment and the compensation would be eliminated. The

present record of decision has an interim phase in period, which is

real significant to us, in that it would allow about 90 snowmobiles

to enter through the south gate of Yellowstone on a daily basis.

Our contract actually authorizes 85 snowmobiles to go into the

park daily, and I can’t imagine that we would get the total authorization. So if you prorate that number, it would give us about ten

snowmobiles a day, which would not be enough for Flagg Ranch to

operate during the interim period.

13

A little background. In ’89, when the contract was signed with

the National Park Service, Flagg Ranch agreed to totally rebuild

Flagg Ranch. Move it from the Snake River area down by the river,

up on a bluff above the river. Since that time, we’ve built a new

lodge, new cabins, new support facilities at a cost of about nine million dollars.

Part of the agreement in that contract was that we would get the

future revenues from both winter and summer operations until

2009. We’ve spent about 95 percent of the money that needs to be

spent and we’ve got about 60 percent of the income so far. So loss

of the winter business is going to cause a serious problem.

Another thing in the record of decision now and in some of the

alternatives in the current EIS is the snow coach alternative. Since

I got involved five years ago with Flagg Ranch, one of my main efforts has been to try to improve the snow coaches and try to determine if there was a better way to see the Park.

My first impression was that the snow coaches we were using at

that time and other people were using were becoming outdated or

they didn’t really provide the type of service and the comfort that

I thought was needed to offer the snow coach as a tour. What I

found out in looking at available snow coaches, a lot of my background is engineering, is the only snow coaches available at this

time is to take standard off the road 15 passenger vans and convert

them using over the snow equipment. There are a couple different

conversions, but both of those conversions, in my opinion, offer a

marginal situation, both for passenger comfort and in very bad

weather, from a safety standpoint.

I went to Oregon and drove a snow coach which is being used

on the Alaska north slope by a company called Tucker Snowcat for

people transport. That vehicle does offer the safety aspect and they

had agreed that they would build a snow coach which would have

the comfort. They brought their snow coach out to Yellowstone

about a year ago and we tried it. That snow coach did offer a lot

of the things that should be offered, but the big thing it didn’t have

the capability of is the maximum speed. The maximum speed was

25 miles per hour. We feel it needs to be 45 miles an hour. The

suspension system was definitely marginal.

Chairman MANZULLO. Bob, we’re right at five minutes.

Mr. WALKER. Let me just summarize very quickly then. My opinion on the snow coach option is if it’s going to be used, if needs to

be phased in over six or seven years at a very slow rate so we can

see what the economic impact is going to be. Because the surveys

we’ve done, we’re estimating that the visitation to the parks will

drop to 30 percent with snow coach only use. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

[Mr. Walker’s statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. Our next witness will be Jackie Mathews

from the Greater—hang on a second. Let me take Clyde Seely, if

that’s okay with you. Clyde.

STATEMENT OF CLYDE SEELY, YELLOWSTONE TOUR &

TRAVEL

Mr. SEELY. Chairman Manzullo and Congressman Rehberg, my

name is Clyde Seely. I’m honored and pleased to come before you

14

today. I’ve been in the rental snowmobile business in West Yellowstone for about 31 years. I’ve been in the snow coach business now

for about eight years. I believe I have lived the American dream.

I first came to West Yellowstone at 19 when I worked as a laundry

boy. I have devoted my adult life helping to develop the community

and our affiliated businesses that I have listed on our cover sheet.

I am proud of our little town. We have worked hard to be a good

partner with Yellowstone by providing community services to millions of visitors and park staff. We have been severely impacted

with the September 11th attack on our country. We will survive

that. We cannot survive the economic fallout of the impending

snowmobile ban. Let us not create an economic ground zero in

West Yellowstone. Ironically, this is the time when Director

Mainella and Secretary Norton are promoting visiting our national

parks. They have said that the parks belong to the people and can

be used for renewal and for the healing of the soul. Let’s not shut

the people out.

I currently employ over 220 people, many with families. Our payroll is in excess of two point five million dollars. The money these

employees make turns over many times in our community. The ban

on snowmobiles in Yellowstone will cause great economic harm to

our community and those who work and live here.

At Three Bear Lodge, 52 percent of our total annual revenue

comes from three winter months. We believe that a ban on snowmobiles would cut our revenues by 60 to 70 percent. We currently

operate 260 rental snowmobiles. We also operate a fleet of snow

coaches. While we market equally to snow coach and snowmobile

clientele, only about five percent of our customers use the snow

coach. Mr. Chairman, Congressman Rehberg, I have some slides.

With your permission, I’d like to show these that graphically point

out the effects that rely too heavily using snow coaches to replace

snowmobiles. I see I’m right in the limelight. I’m going to move.

This slide shows the comparison of snowmobile and snow coach

visitors through the west gate for five different years. The blue indicates snowmobile, the red snow coach. As you can see, West Yellowstone would be financially devastated if the snowmobile ban

goes into effect. West Yellowstone will be financially devastated if

a 330 snowmobile per day is imposed, especially if the closing day

for snowmobiles is Friday after President’s holiday, as has been

proposed. The next few slides show the effect of such a 330 snowmobile CAP day. This is mild, however, compared to a total snowmobile ban.

Let’s quickly scan through four years. These graphs represent

the daily numbers of snowmobiles that pass through the west gate.

The black box with the elongated X shows the effect that would

have been for the past few years if only 330 snowmobiles would

have been allowed in the west entrance and closed after the President’s holiday, as has been proposed. All lines outside the box represent actual snowmobilers that would have been excluded from

the park. This would equate to an economic loss between seven and

eight and a half million dollars each year from 1995 to 2001, and

I think that’s conservative.

While we do not have a problem with making reasonable cutbacks on numbers of snowmobiles, we know that cutting back numVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:39 May 23, 2002 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00018 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 D:\DISC\78291.XXX txed01 PsN: txed01
15

bers of visitors will not only deny their rights to enjoy the park but

also our economic well being. We have been told that new concept

snow coaches would be in place to fill the void left by the snowmobile ban.

We, along with the public have been led down a primrose path

right into a box canyon. These new snow coaches have never been

developed. What will be the public use when the snowmobiles are

gone? Who will pay the payrolls, who will make the bank payments? The current makeshift snow coaches that we use will fail

dismally in satisfying the public’s needs. And there are many reasons for that.

While new snow coach technology has not arrived, new snowmobile technology is quantum leaps ahead. The new four stroke

snowmobile was massed produced this year. They’re really clean

and quiet. As I indicated, one of the fallacies with the snowmobile

ban is the assumption that concept snow coaches would be on the

snow in time to replace the snowmobile. Nothing could be further

from the truth. New snow coaches have not been built. They have

not been funded. It will be years before snow coaches can be developed and the necessary—marketing necessary completed.

The proposed one or two year transition period will do nothing

but bring economic harm to Yellowstone—West Yellowstone. Our

community will not be pacified and lulled into a false sense of security that it will be okay. This proposed ban is not okay. It will be

financially devastating to our community. Anyone who says otherwise does not have to meet payrolls and bank payments.

My final plea is that we all work together to protect the park,

to protect the public’s choice of access and to protect the economic

well being of Yellowstone’s most dedicated partner, West Yellowstone. Together we can make it all happen. Together, we can do it

right. And thank you so much for caring enough to come out here.

Thanks for providing this forum for listening to our concerns. And

I have included with my written testimony some attachments.

Chairman MANZULLO. Those attachments will also be made part

of the record.

[Mr. Seely’s statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. Illinois, the part I come from has had two

inches of snow so far. And when my wife and I drove out here just

to see the snow, we were like children, to see the beauty of the

State.

Our next witness is Melissa Bueller——

Ms. BULLER. Buller.

Chairman MANZULLO. Buller, I’m sorry. With the Free Heel and

Wheel. I imagine you’ll tell us what the name of that organization

is; here in West Yellowstone, Montana. We look forward to your

testimony.

STATEMENT OF MELISSA BULLER, FREE HEEL AND WHEEL

Ms. BULLER. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before——

Chairman MANZULLO. Could we have the lights come up now,

please and bring your mic up closer.

Ms. BULLER. Thank you. My name is Melissa Buller. I am coowner of a bicycle and cross country ski store in West Yellowstone.

Our store, Free Heel and Wheel has been in business for over five

16

and a half years. We rent and sell bicycles and cross country skis.

We specialize in customer service which involves educating visitors

on non-motorized activities available in our area. These non-motorized activities include biking, hiking, backpacking, trail running,

snowshoeing, back country skiing and cross country skiing. Thanks

to a tremendous local support and a growing base of regional customers, we have been able to sustain our business in the snowmobile capital of the world.

I believe a change regarding snowmobiling in Yellowstone National Park must occur. In our business we interact daily with people who are interested in exploring Yellowstone in a nonmotorized

fashion. Currently in—a level of usage by inefficient snowmobiles

has turned Yellowstone into a snowmobile park. The roads are utilized by hundreds of machines daily, thousands on holidays. These

provide—these do not provide a quality experience for all visitors

nor are they inviting for potential visitors. Often tourists visiting

in November to ski will say they will not visit West Yellowstone

or the park after Christmas because of high numbers of snowmobiles. Snow coach travelers endure extremely bumpy roads, and despite incredible grooming efforts, the park cannot keep the trails

smooth with large numbers of snowmobiles.

I am not in favor of a snowmobile ban in Yellowstone. Seeing the

park on a snowmobile is a tradition for many people. I do not feel

this right needs to be taken away completely. I feel that a limited

number of clean machines in Yellowstone would allow for independent travel along with increased snow coach and non-motorized

use. Diversifying the park’s winter access will attract a broader

market. This broader market could potentially increase visitation

with less environmental impact.

My decision to open a business in West Yellowstone was not

strictly a business decision. Many who live in this area do so because of the recreational opportunities available right out our back

door. There are locals and visitors who feel that as skiers, we are

shut out of Yellowstone and other public lands in the winter because of large numbers of snowmobilers. Certainly, many trails

could be used by skiers; however, with snowmobiles traveling at

high speeds, it’s simply not safe. The park could consider opening

Yellowstone to skiers and snowshoers certain days of the month.

People dream of skateskiing to Old Faithful on a clear day. During periods of low snow, like December and March, the park could

be open for skiers and snowshoers only. There is often not enough

snow, for over snow vehicles, yet there are still ample opportunities

to enjoy the park on skis. An overwhelming response to such an opportunity could prove that people will choose to see Yellowstone on

their own power. This could lengthen busy seasons with the park

and gateway communities with little or no impact on wildlife or resources.

The Park Service could also consider shuttle services in order to

provide more economic alternative for non-motorized users in Yellowstone. Skiers also enjoy traveling independently. Presently,

going to Old Faithful to ski for the day on your own is not an option unless you spend 80 to 100 dollars to rent a snowmobile. There

are also wonderful guided snow coach ski tours yet not all visitors

need or can afford a guided trip.

17

In my opinion the Park Service does not have the responsibility

to maintain the economic vitality of those businesses who choose to

utilize its resources. The Park Service must protect the resources

and provide access in such a way that is not mutually exclusive or

detrimental to the environment. The Park Service must also consider the overwhelming public support for reducing the air and

noise pollution in Yellowstone. The sooner a decision is made, we

can move toward. West Yellowstone has survived many economic

setbacks including wildfires, government furloughs and weather.

The changes that will occur in Yellowstone will be healthier for the

park and West Yellowstone and the community can thrive as the

winter recreation capital of the world. Thank you.

[Ms. Buller’s statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. Melissa, you ever testified before a congressional Committee before?

Ms. BULLER. No, sir.

Chairman MANZULLO. It wasn’t as bad as you thought it was.

Ms. BULLER. No, sir.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Our next witness is Jackie Mathews who’s with the Greater Yellowstone Coalition. Sorry about the mix up earlier, Jackie. We look

forward to your testimony.

STATEMENT OF JACKIE MATHEWS, GREATER YELLOWSTONE

COALITION

Ms. MATHEWS. Hello. My name is Jackie Mathews and I want to

say——

Chairman MANZULLO. You have a very soft voice so you have to

be very close to the mic.

Ms. MATHEWS. I want to thank you for listening to my testimony

today. I have lived in West Yellowstone—— Chairman MANZULLO. They still can’t hear you.

Ms. MATHEWS. Thank you. My name is Jackie Mathews. Thank

you for listening to my testimony. I’ve lived in West Yellowstone

for 23 years. My husband Craig and I started Blue Ribbon Flies,

a fly fishing retail and guiding business 22 years ago. We have customers who come from all over the world to fish here. They are

drawn because of the park and the unparalleled experience of our

first national park and the surrounding areas.

We believe, as business owners benefiting from Yellowstone, we

owe the park in return. Our business donates one percent of its

gross sales to the park through the Yellowstone Park Foundation.

Craig and I are on the board of the Yellowstone Park Foundation

and the Greater Yellowstone Coalition. We feel we owe the park

the best protection that can be given and are committed to act as

unselfish stewards of Yellowstone.

When the park made the decision to phase out snowmobiles, it

was based on years of science, a foundation of law and extensive

public input. The EPA said that the Park Service and environmental impact statement was among the most thorough and substantial science based that they had seen supporting the NEPA

document. That law of science and public opinion that form the

park’s decision to restore pure air, peace and quiet to Yellowstone

could not be more clear.

18

In the most recent round of public comment, 82 percent of the

thousands of citizens who took time to express their opinions told

the Park Service to uphold the original decision to phase out snowmobiles. Scientists from around the country told Secretary of the

Interior Gail Norton that continued snowmobile use harms the

park’s wildlife and is in violation of the law. Americans treasure

Yellowstone and we who are privileged to live at its doorsteps bear

the heaviest responsibility for its protection. Our future and the future of the town depends on the park.

I deeply care about my community and have sadly watched as

our winter economy has turn into the company store single business economy, leaving out the smaller businesses as the years go

past. The snowmobile ban is the best thing for West Yellowstone

and Yellowstone Park. By protecting Yellowstone, it will open the

doors for newer winter business growth in town.

Snowmobiling will always be an important segment of our winter

economy, but no longer can it be acceptable in Yellowstone. A snow

coach system into the park will open up all kinds of opportunities

for local businesses. They can promote Yellowstone to everyone, not

just snowmobilers. Many visitors to Yellowstone will welcome such

an opportunity. Skiers, families, older people, local and regional

visitors who avoid intensive snowmobile areas. The opportunities

are limitless to attract new visitor groups.

We don’t need more debate or controversy. This is pulling our

town apart. We need help with the job at hand, implementing a

snow coach system to protect Yellowstone and to provide the highest quality experience to the park’s visitors and to make sure our

local economy gets the help it needs to weather the transition and

flourish with increased diversity.

Many business persons and residents of our town support the

snowmobile phase out in Yellowstone. Two years ago, over 150 people, about one third of the voting population signed a petition. A

call for a healthy economy and a healthy park, supporting the

park’s decision and asking Congress to go forward with the phase

out. Numerous letters from townspeople have been sent to Congress urging support of the snowmobile phase out.

The message is clear. Please protect Yellowstone. Our community

and our livelihoods will thrive and we will not fall into economic

ruin. The House Small Business Committee is in a unique position

to assist our town as we make this overdue and necessary transition. The goal must be made as easy as possible on our local business people. This can be accomplished by providing low interest

loans and assistance to new and expanded snow coach operations.

The key to our town’s success obviously will be a continued influx

of winter tourists. Yellowstone Park’s a tremendous draw, which

will continue to serve us as long as we protect it. Remember, no

one is closing the gates. Marketing, advertising, public education

similar to that undertaken following the 1988 fires will help us

minimize any dip in visitation.

Last March, because of a low snow pack, the roads to Yellowstone were closed early and the winter visitor could only enter the

park in buses. The buses were packed. The city sales tax collections

for that month jumped 40 percent. The people will come. We just

need to be ready for them.

19

In summary, I ask the committee to support a sustainable economy for West Yellowstone and please don’t compromise Yellowstone. It’s the only one we have. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you very much.

Ms. MATHEWS. I have some attachments.

Chairman MANZULLO. Yes. They will be made part of the record.

[Ms. Mathews’ statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. And this is your first time before a congressional Committee?

Ms. MATHEWS. Yes.

Chairman MANZULLO. You did very well. Thank you.

Our next witness will be Glen Loomis because Bob Coe is not

here.

STATEMENT OF GLEN LOOMIS, YELLOWSTONE MOTORSPORTS

Mr. LOOMIS. I do have an overhead that I’d like to show in a

minute, if somebody could turn that on for me. There she comes.

Chairman MANZULLO. Glen, you might want to use that portable

mic. It appears to be hotter.

Mr. LOOMIS. My name is Glen Loomis. I live in West Yellowstone, part of a family business. We have snowmobile rentals, snow

coach rentals and motels. My father visited Yellowstone in 1914 in

a covered wagon. Took them 32 days to see Yellowstone. Now I

didn’t see that option being evaluated. Maybe they should go back

and add that as an alternative. It didn’t work real well in the winter, however.

I think that the main thing we have to consider is that access

is really what we’re talking about; winter as well as summer. How

do we access Yellowstone? So let me give you a couple of issues

that I’d like to touch on.

I’ve been on the town council going on the 11th year here in

West Yellowstone. I served as mayor for five; presently the deputy

mayor. Basically it seems to me what happens in Yellowstone happens to the businesses in West Yellowstone and happens to our

town. We have a very cyclic response to visitation. So I’d like to

show this overhead. It shows the resort tax collections for the past

few years.

As you can see, we have a very cyclic impact. The summer is

very heavy visitation, the Fall is almost nothing. We have a blip

in the winter. The spring again is almost nothing. And yet businesses such as mine have to make monthly payments. And so you

have to have some stability to make monthly payments and to

make the payroll.

Ms. Mathews referred to the blip last year in March, so let me

give you a thought on that. We do need diversity. We had a special

snow shoot that was invited to town and they came. We had a special ski race. But the real problem is collection of taxes, resort

taxes that are already delinquent. We do get some special payments on delinquent taxes. As of yesterday, the town is experiencing right now around 50,000 dollars in delinquent resort tax

payments. Hopefully they’ll come in. And I have to tell you, I don’t

care what month they come in, they need to be paid. We already

are stressed.

20

I’d like to also point out that there’s a number of things that

have been discussed about technology. Things have changed. There

is clean, quiet technology for snowmobiles. There are snow coaches.

Our business, our family business uses this particular piece as an

advertising piece. [Copy of the brochure may be found in the appendix.]

We made 180,000, and the first page talks about snowmobile

tours and packages available.

The second page equally talks about snow coach tours. Year to

date, our snow coach reservations equal four point six eight percent

of our reservations. Why is there apprehension in my business? If

there were 50 percent booking snow coaches and 50 percent booking snowmobiles, the thought that there could be an easy transition

would not make me apprehensive. But when you’re at four point

six eight percent, where are they coming from and how are you

going to change? That’s of concern to me. I’d like to summarize a

couple of thoughts.

We do need to protect Yellowstone. No question about it. I want

it protected as much as anybody does. There are limits, so there

need to be some adjustments in terms of winter use. I don’t deny

that. But the new technology of clean, quiet snowmobiles do not

impact the land, the air or the water because they travel on the

same roads as the cars do in the summertime. About 50,000 winter

visitors from West Yellowstone. Almost three million for the year.

Seems to me that we’ve got things way out of perspective in terms

of what’s important.

It is true, the park does not exist for the gateway communities.

But think about it, the gateway communities do exist for the park.

They provide the necessary support and the development so the

park does not have to provide it inside their boundaries. So if we

protect historical use—historical visitation—businesses such as

mine may be able to succeed. But if we jump off with an immediate

ban—how do we make up the four point six eight percent snow

coach riders that we have now and continue to make our monthly

payments while meeting the payroll. Animal impacts can be mitigated. The tests that they have already talked about, the pilot

studies, show that.

Finally I’d just like to say this one thing. My major concern is

to assure summer and winter access for my grandchildren and my

grandchildren’s children in an environmentally friendly atmosphere. And I’m tired of certain groups crying ‘‘the sky is falling’’

and our government rushing to eliminate access to our public

lands. Thank you.

[Applause.]

[Mr. Loomis’ statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. I’ve never had an audience applaud whenever a witness has testified.

Mr. REHBERG. Just when you’re introduced they’re allowed.

Chairman MANZULLO. No, that doesn’t happen either. Congressman Rehberg, why don’t you go ahead. First of all, I want to thank

you for the quality of the testimony. It’s all local. You’re all local

residents. You all feel very strong about this and I appreciate this.

Mr. REHBERG. Thank you. I’d like to—when—Glen, when you

were talking, you pointed something out to me that I hadn’t

21

thought about with the makeup of the panel. I wanted to—I want

to address real briefly. And that is Glen, Clyde and Bob, you’re all

involved in the housing—besides the rental of the snowmobiles, the

housing arena or the provision of an opportunity for people once

they get here to stay here. So I’ll ask Melissa and Jackie, do you

have any involvement in the housing within West Yellowstone?

Ms. BULLER. We don’t own hotels.

Mr. REHBERG. You don’t own hotels or bed and breakfasts or anything like that. So you’re pure service providers and they’re service

providers in kind of a basic industry.

Do you worry, Jackie and Melissa, that if they can’t meet their

payroll—these are the hard, cruel realities of making the payments

on the equipment, the staff, the people that clean the rooms, the

restaurant located within those, that if they don’t or can’t stay in

business because they can’t meet their payroll because they’ve diversified their income within their own business, snowmobiles,

snowshoes, bicycles, snow machines and motel rooms, that your

service provision would be financially impacted within the community. They got to have a place to stay. I guess—— Ms. MATHEWS. Are you asking if we would be—our service business would be impacted?

Mr. REHBERG. Are you worried that your service provision, your

business is based upon providing service. If they go out of business

and you people don’t have a place to stay, what are you going to

do with the people that come to rent your bikes or cross country

skis?

Ms. BULLER. Is—um, one thing I’d like to point out, if you look

at——

Chairman MANZULLO. Just a second. I really would appreciate if

the audience would be quiet. This is a congressional hearing. We

don’t allow participation of that nature on the floor—I’m sorry, we

do on the floor, but not in the gallery and also in the other Committee rooms. I would just appreciate if you could remain silent

while the witness is testifying. This is very difficult for them to do.

Thank you. Melissa, please.

Ms. BULLER. I know that neither of us want to see any of our

neighbors go out of business. But what I’d like to go out—if you

look at Glen’s sales tax figures for the town and add up December,

January and February and March, that accounts for about a quarter of our annual collections in revenue. So I believe, being the

good businessmen that these men are, to make up for that—if we

lose 90 percent of our winter business, they’re going to lose approximately 20 percent of their annual income. I know the wildfires

of ’88 probably had that significant of an economic impact and they

managed to survive and grow and operate more businesses.

And I also know that visitors who do use other means of transportation will stay in this town. Possibly more visitors, if we can

have some control over the snowmobile use in this community. We

talked to people on a daily basis who say they will not stay in West

Yellowstone because of the noise and the air. So we feel that if you

can balance the usage—we’re not asking to eliminate snowmobiles

altogether. We think it’s an important part of the package. But if

we can provide more of a balance, I think the community will only

grow.

22

Ms. MATHEWS. I think that’s one of the things that I was asking

you for, too. As the Small Business Committee, to help them with

loans and so forth to get them through the phase out time period,

where they have the opportunity to diversify their own winter businesses where they won’t be left high and dry either.

Chairman MANZULLO. Let me comment on that. Before a loan is

given, there has to be a business plan. And part of a business plan,

you have to show that there’s a demand for the service; that there’s

a reasonable opportunity to pay back the loan. And the testimony

that I’ve heard so far is that there’s very little demand for the snow

coaches. So the government would just not come in and say, we’re

going to help you with the transition when so far, there’s nothing— no testimony deduced as to what it would be transitioning to.

Ms. MATHEWS. I think you need to take a look at our community.

Our community right now is very, very one-sided snowmobile only.

By opening it up, cleaning it up and turning it into a—let’s say

more user-friendly community during the winter months, I think

you would find that the numbers of people that are drawn to this

town to go into the park would probably quadruple to what we are

doing right now.

The game is to get us from where we’re at now to that point and

help the existing businesses get through this time period. We have

a huge potential, which is—I mean, which we have a huge draw,

which is Yellowstone. The biggest problem we have in there right

now is the situation. Most people don’t want to go into the park

when the park is overrun with snowmobiles that are loud and

noisy and obnoxious. Change the park situation, change the town

a little bit and we can all be a lot better off than what we’re at

right now.

Mr. REHBERG. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that government doesn’t create jobs. People do. But what government does

is often times create a less than favorable environment for jobs to

be created. And if you want to diversify your income, you have to

have an opportunity for people not to be over regulated and not to

be overtaxed; and there is always that balance. Diversification of

our economy is very important but what we have to do is recognize

that our job is not to pick winners and losers, the snowmobile industry over the cross country ski industry. What we have to do is

try to create an environment so that they can all co-exist. And I

guess my question to you is, Jackie, when your clientele who are

not necessarily—well, they might be snowmobilers, when they come

to this community to rent your cross country skis—that’s your business, I’m sorry. Do they——

Chairman MANZULLO. Fishing.

Mr. REHBERG. Oh, you’re the fisher person. Do they also rent

snowmobiles while they’re here or are they cross country skiing

specific?

Ms. BULLER. We have both users. We have some people that will

rent both snowmobiles and skis. And a lot of our customers are

strictly skiers or snowshoers.

Mr. REHBERG. Have you then worked with the Forest Service

and National Park Service to try to create dual opportunities? It

seems to me like within the National Park Service there are the

roads and the snowmobiles are limited to the roads. But there’s a

23

lot of extra park out there that is not roaded, not groomed for

snowmobiles that would provide a wonderful, quiet opportunity for

those that want to cross country ski to do that. Have you made

those kinds of presentations and recommendations?

Ms. BULLER. Well, we would like that but the problem there is

no access to those areas currently. We have one trail system on the

edge of town and then we have one small trail that goes into Yellowstone from the edge of town. The other ski areas are at Old

Faithful and Mammoth. And to get to those areas there’s currently

no inexpensive access. You are required to rent a snowmobile or

take a snow coach tour. So there is no private access for a skier

to just simply go into the park and ski, unless there they’re skiing

just on the edge of town.

That’s what we’re asking for. We’re asking for a balance. You can

see, there’s probably a dozen trails that leave town and in the park

for snowmobiles, and we have two very small areas. And that’s

mainly what we’re asking for is to diversify and provide experience

for both users.

Mr. REHBERG. I’d like to ask the National Park Service then two

follow up questions based upon that. Can that be considered, additional off site areas as an alternative, when you’re talking about

the number of snow machines or motors within the park. Can it

have a subset A, creating an opportunity for those that want a

quiet enjoyment to have groomed trails that don’t exist today?

Ms. BULLER. We’re not necessarily for the trails. We’re asking for

access to the trails.

Mr. REHBERG. Being someone who cross countries skis, I prefer

the groomed trails.

Chairman MANZULLO. Could you please state your full name and

spell the last name?

Mr. SACKLIN. I’m John Sacklin. S-A-C-K-L-I-N. I’m the chief of

planning and compliance at Yellowstone National Park. In answer

to your question, Congressman Rehberg, during our environmental

impact statement process where we look at planning for winter activities in Yellowstone National Park, we’ve looked at the whole

wide range of winter uses be it snowmobiling, access via snow

coach, snowshoeing or cross country skiing. And in our alternatives

we have looked at a wide range of ways to attempt to accommodate

all users. In the new supplemental environmental impact statement, a great deal of the focus of that is on snowmobiles and clean,

quiet technology. But in our range of alternatives, we have looked

at those non-motorized uses.

I should note, I think most people from the—from this area are

aware of it. West Yellowstone, Montana, sitting on the west side

of Yellowstone National Park also sits in an area of important winter wildlife habitat. I think we all recognize that winter users, be

they non-motorized or motorized, can have an impact, an adverse

impact on wintering wildlife. So as you think about the possible addition of additional trails, particularly in the vicinity of West Yellowstone, coming into Yellowstone National park, we need to look

at other issues such as winter wildlife.

Mr. REHBERG. One additional question then, Mr. Chairman and

for—in relation to someone Ms. Mathews brought up and the statement was made that it’s not the National Parks Service’s charge

24

to look at the economic impact of the ultimate rule, am I stating

that correctly? That was your intimation, that their job is to look

at—again, I’m sorry, Melissa. There you go. Is that a fair characterization of your statement? That they should be looking at the

environment, not the economics?

Ms. BULLER. [Nodding.].

Mr. REHBERG. I guess I’d have to ask a question, because I don’t

know—— Chairman MANZULLO. The Regulatory Flexibility Act mandates

that whenever there’s a change like this, that there must be a

study done on—for economic impact.

Ms. BULLER. I think that’s fair, but you’re looking at the impact

on one specific user.

Chairman MANZULLO. Say it again, Melissa.

Ms. BULLER. Your concern is the impact on one specific business.

Mr. REHBERG. I hope not.

Chairman MANZULLO. That’s all small business. That includes

school districts. They get a considerable amount of money from

recreation.

Ms. BULLER. I’m not saying that a partnership is not a good idea,

you know, I definitely think we need to look at the economic impacts, but there are more economic impacts than the snowmobile

use. We can spread the use out.

Chairman MANZULLO. Let me just throw this out. There are

some groups that want to eliminate mountain bikes. What—— Ms. BULLER. It’s already eliminated from the park.

Chairman MANZULLO. Where do your people—— Ms. BULLER. On the Forest Service land.

Chairman MANZULLO. Forest Service. There are some groups

that want to eliminate mountain biking from the Forest Service.

Ms. BULLER. As well as snowmobiling.

Chairman MANZULLO. What would that do to your industry if

they were eliminated?

Ms. BULLER. Renting of bicycles is actually a pretty small part

of our business, so I would say that would definitely decrease our

rental usage in the summer months. But we actually do a significant amount of our rental business occurs when the park is closed.

People have the ability to bicycle in the park with no cars. And

that’s actually, if you look at our rental figures, we do the highest

rental of our bicycles in April, when the park is actually closed.

Chairman MANZULLO. The—there’s an article—Melissa, is this

your publication, The Greater Yellowstone Report.

Ms. MATHEWS. I’m Jackie.

Chairman MANZULLO. Oh, Jackie, I’m sorry. Jackie, this is your

publication?

Ms. MATHEWS. It’s not—I sit on the—I’m a board of director on

the Greater Yellowstone Coalition.

Chairman MANZULLO. I was reading this yesterday. It quotes an

editorial from the Casper Star Tribune on November first. Do not

overturn the snowmobile decision. You didn’t see this?

Ms. MATHEWS. Is that a Greater Yellowstone Coalition report?

Chairman MANZULLO. Yes. The Greater Yellowstone Report from

the Greater Yellowstone Organization.

Ms. MATHEWS. I don’t believe——

25

Chairman MANZULLO. The Greater Yellowstone Coalition. That’s

not your group?

Ms. MATHEWS. Yes, it is.

Chairman MANZULLO. That is your group. It quotes an editorial

here. And let me read to you a couple of lines and ask each of the

people here on the panel to comment on it. It said, while the gateway communities may feel a temporary impact from a ban on

snowmobiles in these parks, the ban will better serve the communities by protecting a resource that will attract tourists as long as

there exists a love of nature.

The Federal Government however also must recognize that a

number of businesses around Yellowstone develop their winter operations on the basis of the past winter use policy. The Interior Department, Forest Service State economic development agencies in

Wyoming, Montana and Idaho, and the private sector should implement programs that will help these businesses to make the transition from snowmobile inside the park to other services.

The problem is it didn’t say what other services. I’d like to ask

each of the people here on the panel to fill in that blank with what

these other services that would be that would pick up the impact

from banning snowmobiling. Clyde, let me start with you and whoever wants to comment.

Mr. SEELY. We are certainly supportive of diversity of activities

here. We do not oppose reduction of snowmobile numbers as long

as the snow coach, the new concept snow coach is in place and operating to maintain the historic numbers of visitors to our area, especially to our town. Because that is where we derive our economic

base. We cannot wait. We do not have the staying power to think

about all these grandiose ideas and maybe possible alternatives

that just might be able to be developed. And in the meantime,

take—make our bank payments, make our payrolls every two

weeks and maybe in two to five to ten years, there might be some

additional opportunity to fill up the—fill in the void. We can’t wait

that long. Neither can our community.

If there’s going to be some alternative, we need to work for it

concurrently with what we have going. The snowmobiles, given

that reduction in numbers is possible, increased snow coaches, we

are—Melissa and I are on the bicycle committee that she talked

about, together. We’re working to increase visitation in the shoulder seasons. But I don’t know how you’re going—you can’t just all

of a sudden shut the gate and open another gate and maintain the

historic levels of visitation here without taking a long time to do

it; and in the meantime, we’re going to suffer economically.

Chairman MANZULLO. Anybody else want to comment on the editorial? Bob.

Mr. WALKER. Mr. Chairman, when I first got involved in Flagg

Ranch five years ago, one of the things we tried to do was to increase the number of people cross country skiing in the area. The

Park Service has designated trails away from the snowmobile trails

so you can ski in the park and in the totally isolated area. In fact,

one of the trails goes by some hot springs that people hike into

quite often as well as cross country ski.

We advertised on radio and we promoted it through our brochures. We hired a person to do guided cross country skiing tours

26

into those areas with zero success. Those trails today are used by

less than five people per day. They go back into that area. I don’t

believe from our standpoint we have any chance of developing a

market that is going to help us out financially. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Glen.

Mr. LOOMIS. I’ve been thinking about covered wagon tours in the

summer, maybe. But whatever we do, it really doesn’t matter. If

they don’t come to visit in Yellowstone on a historical basis, many

of the small businesses are at risk. The government actions are

real and we just need to continually work out a way that will assure that the public can access the park in the summer as well as

the winter. And I don’t care if they come for a snow coach ride or

a snowmobile ride or to go cross country skiing or whatever. But

at this point that hasn’t happened and snowmobile use has expanded. Snow coach traffic has only expanded a minimal amount.

Ms. MATHEWS. I think the one thing that the Committee doesn’t

realize is the amount of trails—snowmobile groomed trails out of

the park. In—you have in Basin alone, I believe there’s a hundred

miles of groomed trails where people can come to the park and continue—they can go into the park in a snow coach and they can continue to snowmobile out of the park. Nobody’s taking any of that

away from them. If you read most of the responses from people

that come to West Yellowstone to snowmobile, the bulk of the tours

would prefer to snowmobile out of the park. It’s better. The trails

are better. The snowmobiling itself better. They don’t really have

as much fun in the park as they do out of it.

The other thing too is the Committee is in a unique situation

right now where—to help design or help fund the design of the

snow coaches and get that off the ground and moving quickly so

that there will be a fleet available in the real near future.

Mr. REHBERG. I don’t disagree that there are different kinds of

usage within the snowmobile hobby, but people can snowmobile

anywhere in Montana. I think that the park is the draw. I guess

I kind of liken it to riding the monorail at Disneyland. Disneyland

is out there and if all you could do is ride the monorail, you’d never

get an opportunity to see the rides or see the concessions. And so

I guess my question then to you, Bob is—and maybe I missed your

point and it was a question I was going to ask anyhow so maybe

you can restate it in a different way. You attempted to provide free

snow coach access for cross country skiers to remote locations and

they did not fly—or were you going to charge them for that service?

Mr. WALKER. Mr. Chairman, Congressman. No, the location of

Flagg is the end where you can go with a wheeled vehicle. So when

you’re in our parking lot you’re less than two or three hundred feet

from the ski trails or snowshoe trails. There was no reason to provide transportation. It’s available right there. And those trails go

back into the forest land away from the snowmobile trails.

Mr. REHBERG. If your point was to try and find the compromise

with those that want to eliminate snowmobiles from the national

park, would it be a reasonable compromise to perhaps provide a

snow coach opportunity for those that want to cross country ski,

but to be in where the action is, getting off the monorail at

Disneyland and see some of the geysers and such that they

wouldn’t have the ability to walk all day long to get to or take more

27

than one day to get to. Would you be willing to consider providing

snow coach accessibility for those cross country skiers?

Mr. WALKER. Mr. Chairman, Congressman, if there is a market

there, we would be doing it. And right now, we take one or two

snow coaches per day into the Old Faithful area. There’s less than

one percent of those people that go to Yellowstone that take skis

with them. We do provide that service at an additional cost. If

there was a market that would help us financially, we definitely

would provide transportation for cross country skiing and we do

now if there is a request.

Mr. REHBERG. Could I ask Clyde the same question?

Mr. SEELY. I’m not sure I got your question correct. We of course

are willing to and would be anxious to provide snow coach or snowmobile rentals to cross country skiers to get them into the park. We

currently do that. Did I miss your question?

Mr. REHBERG. Well, I was looking for—what we’re trying to do,

it seems, in the debate is trying to lessen the number of motors or

at least control the number of motors at the current level. And if

you do that, there’s going to be an additional need or—because

what’s going to happen is over the course of the next ten, 20, 30

years, more people are going to want to access Yellowstone park

than are right now. That’s just a fact of life.

The chairman was telling me of a situation in his home State

within the Forest Service, where now, because of the numbers of

people accessing the Forest Service, they’ve banned horses. Well,

we’re not there yet in daily usage, but a day will come where people need an area to recreate. So if we’re looking at alternatives for

the National Park Service within their rule, to try and lessen the

controversy of placing the caps on the snow machines themselves,

if one of the ways was to provide snow coaches paid for by somebody; you own them, National Park Service owns them, somebody

owns them, to load people that want a quiet cross country opportunity to get to remote sites, would that be something that ought

to be included in the alternative?

Mr. SEELY. Sure. But it comes back, Congressman, it comes back

to the point that several of us have been trying to make. That is

in the future. That is not this next winter. And we cannot survive

until those kinds of changes come about. So—and the point is that

we can take these same numbers of snowmobilers and they can

recreate or snowmobile outside of Yellowstone in the wonderful

snowmobiling country we have in the forest is absurd because of

the numbers of people that coming into Yellowstone. Yellowstone

is the initial draw. And then while they’re here, they go to Yellowstone, then they go outside of the park. If all of them were to go

outside of the park, it would create such an overload on the trails

that are existing in the Forest Service, that that would cease to become an enjoyable experience and we’d begin a death spiral there.

Mr. REHBERG. Could I refer to one of your slides and the numbers were over 50,000 visitors. I didn’t see the number of days that

that included. I couldn’t read it quick enough and divide the number. How many people per day are we talking about on average

that access the park on snowmobiles? I don’t think I need the slide.

He probably knows the number off the top of his head. We were

looking at the various alternatives in the prior impact statement

28

and it talked about 330 and 700 and such. How do those numbers

correlated to—on average, daily use to the slides you put up?

Mr. SEELY. I’m not sure the average daily use. I would suspect

that would be around six or 700 average. But you can’t just flatten

everything off and have an average all the way through. The peaks

and the valleys are real and you have to have the peaks in order

to get to the average. And you take the peaks off and the average

suddenly becomes way lower. And so that is a great concern. You

can see there the—if those peaks were all flattened out and put

into the valleys, then I presume that looks like maybe just looking

from here, looks like 650 or 700 people—machines.

Mr. REHBERG. So the impact statement that was considered in

the prior rule that the Bush administrations put on hold for consideration did in fact place the cap, didn’t take into account the peaks

and valleys and ultimately there would logically be an economic

impact on the community.

Mr. SEELY. Exactly. The initial—the situation we’re currently

under is a ban that is in—that is coming up. And with that, you

can see what the economic impact would be. One of the alternatives is a 330 per day cap and ending with snowmobiles after

Washington’s—the Friday after Washington’s birthday. There’s the

elongated box. Everything outside of the box, as I said earlier,

would go away if that alternative is accepted. We can’t live with

that.

Mr. REHBERG. Being a businessman, I understand the concept of

supply and demand. If you decrease supply and demand continues

to increase, there’s going to be a rub. If they limited it to 330, how

will those permits, those daily usage permits not just be distributed

among you, but will there be a charge for them and will it in fact

then cause an expense, an additional expense to the 330 people to

access it? How is that decided within that—— Mr. SEELY. Mr. Congressman, I think that’s going to have to be

decided by the planning team. We would like to have some input

in that, but they would be the ones who would ultimately make

that decision. Not only do the rental operators need to have access

with their customers into the park, but also the people that come

on their private snowmobiles. And it would be a very complicated

thing to implement any kind of a reduction to that extent.

Mr. REHBERG. But it could end up being a sport for the rich, getting into the National Park Service, because the permits will not

be controlled by the National Park Service, it will be controlled— when you limit supply, the price goes up. It’s just a fact of life.

Mr. SEELY. That’s a good assumption. I don’t think—at this

point, we’ve not heard that there’s going to be any additional cost

for the concessionaires permits or anything like that. But supply

and demand will drive the cost up. Also, the snow coach alternative

initially said that it would reduce the cost for the consumer to go

in the snow coach. That is not the case. We can show you charts

and graphs and all kinds of background information. That is not

the case. It will become a very expensive way to go.

Chairman MANZULLO. I have a question to ask of Glen. Would

you explain the stream of tax income that comes from

snowmobiling?

Mr. LOOMIS. You’re talking about the resort tax?

29

Chairman MANZULLO. Right. Let me start in the opposite direction. Do the schools in the area depend upon any of the taxes generated by snowmobiles?

Mr. LOOMIS. Most of the taxes for the schools come from property

tax.

Chairman MANZULLO. Okay. Mr. Loomis. The property tax generates the revenue, but the town has a city resort tax. Now that

does not fund the school system, per se. It is used by the town for

its resources to provide city services. About 95 percent of the town’s

income comes from that three percent resort tax that we were looking at. And as you can see, it’s very cyclic.

That runs your sewage system and water system?

Mr. LOOMIS. Well, to some extent. The services like water and

sewer are funded through user charges. They are run pretty much

from these user charges. They have been supplemented in the past

from our general fund, but they are primarily funded from our user

fees. But the other town services provided, like police, sidewalks,

streets, those kind of things, come from the general fund, which are

primarily funded from the resort tax.

Chairman MANZULLO. That would be impacted.

Mr. LOOMIS. Yes. In the past, as you can see, as the park is

opened and closes, the income goes up and down tremendously.

Now, it’s up in summer season—down when the park closes, et

cetera. As the park opens, there’s an influx of visitors. As it closes,

it’s immediately affected. Those things are real. It affects the business, it affects the income to the city from the city resort tax.

Chairman MANZULLO. Appreciate that. Do you want to go into

the——

Mr. REHBERG. Let me ask one more question of Jackie, if I

might. And that is you referred to a survey that had been done

within the community and about a third of the Respondents or 150

people reacted positively to the comment. And I wrote down

healthy community, healthy park. Is that—is that what the wording said? Did it speak specifically to an elimination of

snowmobiling in Yellowstone Park and could we have——

Ms. MATHEWS. It is part of—— Mr. REHBERG. It is part of your—not the statement but the actual statement that was put out to their community for their public

response. Is that part of the—— Ms. MATHEWS [continuing]. Question, it is.

Mr. REHBERG [continuing]. Presentation?

Ms. MATHEWS. Would you like me to read the header to it?

Mr. REHBERG. If you could, please.

Ms. MATHEWS. With the changes in the winter management of

Yellowstone Park looming on the horizon, we the undersigned residents and business owners of the West Yellowstone, Montana,

would like to present our view of the economic reality and potential

of our community. West Yellowstone is a hardworking community

with a proud history of adapting to management changes in our

neighboring park. Our winter economy is robust; however, the economic well being of our gateway community depends on the health

and protection of Yellowstone Park.

Changes in Yellowstone’s winter use must occur in order to keep

the park healthy. Reports of air and noise pollution hurt the repVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:39 May 23, 2002 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00033 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 D:\DISC\78291.XXX txed01 PsN: txed01
30

utation of West Yellowstone and the park, which hurts the marketing efforts and tourism potential.

Many predicted the demise of West Yellowstone during the fires

of 1988. Many local business leaders in our town are convinced

that the removal of snowmobiles from Yellowstone will cause the

downfall of our economy. They were mistaken in ’88 and they are

mistaken now. West Yellowstone is a resilient community able to

adapt and take advantage of changes.

The West Yellowstone area boasts over 300 miles of snowmobile

trail, excellent cross country skiing, scenic beauty and the world’s

first national park. West Yellowstone will thrive as long as the national beauty that attracts visitors remains unimpaired.

For these reasons, we the undersigned residents and business

owners of West Yellowstone, Montana, ask Senators Max Baucus,

Conrad Burns, Congressman Rick Hill, Governor Mark Racicot and

our State legislators, county commissioners and national park services to protect Yellowstone Park and thereby ensure the visitors

will continue to visit West Yellowstone and support the community

of West Yellowstone as a just, diversified and rises to meet any

challenges created by park management.

Mr. REHBERG. Chairman Manzullo shared with me the hearing

notes on the Subcommittee on this very issue, and that preamble

wasn’t in the documentation that was given to the Committee. Was

that preamble on all of the petitions that were passed out, so

that—what she just read is not the same as what was presented

to the Committee as the petition. And so I guess my question is

when people signed the petition, were they signing specifically to

their belief—— Chairman MANZULLO. The petition mentioned nothing about

even limiting snowmobiling.

Mr. REHBERG. So I guess my question is the preamble—— Chairman MANZULLO. It’s just the statement of fact that you

want to have a good quality of life and maintain the beauty of the

park.

Mr. REHBERG. As I look at—I look at the petition as a call for

the healthy economy and a healthy park and I’m surprised everybody in the community didn’t sign. I would have.

Mr. LOOMIS. I would have.

Mr. REHBERG. But it didn’t speak to the elimination of the total

ban of snowmobiles.

Ms. MATHEWS. I believe it does. Mr. Chairman, partway—let’s

see, under the third point there. Many predicted the economic demise of West Yellowstone during the fires of ’88. Today local business leaders are convinced that removal of snowmobiles from Yellowstone will cause the downfall of our economy. They were mistaken in ’88 and they are mistaken now. West Yellowstone is a resilient community and able to adapt and take advantage of the

changes.

Chairman MANZULLO. Let’s do this. I’d like to move into allowing

some of the folks to speak. Anybody here want to give a one minute

statement in the crowd? Here’s what I want to do. It’s going to be

very orderly. It’s going to be limited to one minute and I’m going

to gavel you down. This is an opportunity to make a comment, not

to enter into a dialogue. We just don’t have time to do that.

31

What I’d like you to do is to try to line up over here somewhere

next to Glen. We’ll do it on a first come first person basis. And if

you folks could move the line into the area here. You’re first. Go

ahead, stay right there. And then sort of get behind the curtain so

the rest of the people can see what’s going on. Then when you

make your statement, state your name clearly and make sure you

spell your last name for the record.

Before we do that, let me go into something that we didn’t have

chance to touch on, and that is that the impact of the banning of

snowmobiling is not just here at West Yellowstone National Park.

This park is owned by the taxpayers throughout the entire United

States. It is a federal issue and it’s not limited just to the gateway

communities. It’s important to state that, because taxpayers

throughout the country pay taxes for the purpose of the national

park system. And one of the reasons that we’re having the hearing

is the fact that if you look at the quantitative impact on cutting

back the number of production of snowmobiles, the impact is dramatic in the manufacturing sector.

Let me just give you what it means to the district that I represent. Rockford, Illinois, in 1981, led the Nation in unemployment

at 27 percent. There were more people unemployed at Rockford, Illinois in 1981 than there were in 1930. Rockford is about 35 percent manufacturing based. Most cities are about 19 percent. Within

that city of 150 thousand, there are over a thousand factories and

many of them one and two people shops. Many of those shops make

parts for all types of vehicles. They make parts for skis, they make

parts for snowmobiles, for Harley Davidson motorcycles. The manufacturing chain going into snowmobiling is also significant. And

where we are now, in our economy in Rockford, we’re at 7.1 percent

unemployment.

I just came back from China where I serve as the chairman of

the American Chinese parliamentary exchange. If you look at

what’s going on internationally, the United States continues to slip

in our manufacturing base towards a service base. And there are

many areas in the city that I represent, and in Midwest cities like

Cincinnati, Cleveland, or throughout the country, that are very

much affected by any limitations on the number of snowmobiles

that are manufactured each year. So there is that chain that goes

in.

In addition, the travel industry; the long distance industry on

telephones; the clothing industry; the host industry; the advertising

industry, that can be tremendously impacted by the decision that

is made by the National Park Service. It will reverberate across the

entire country.

All right. Let’s take the first person. You’ve been very patient.

We’re going to limit you to one minute.

Mr. CARSLEY. Hello, my name is Scott Carsley, C-A-R-S-L-E-Y. I

have been operating a snow coach only business in Yellowstone

since 1984. In other words, 100 percent of my clientele are snow

coach passengers. We deal a lot with cross country skiers, which

we transport in the park. And I remind the people in this room

that there are other snow coach businesses which operate a camp

which depend on cross country skiers for their living.

32

Just like to clarify a couple other points here. Peak visitation in

Yellowstone during the winter months was the year 1992–1993. We

had 71 thousand visitors that winter. We collected 306,000 dollars

in resort tax. 1998 and ’99—— Chairman MANZULLO. I have to limit it to a minute—— Mr. CARSLEY. 60,000 people. I also have two letters I would like

to submit to the record.

Chairman MANZULLO. That’d be fine. You could just leave them

right here on the table. That would be fine.

[The information may be found in appendix.]

Ms. MAYHUE. My name is Drusha Mayhue. M-A-Y-H-U-E. While

driving here today we were driving behind a sled carriage with two

snowmobiles attached to it. And I wondered how many people can

afford a snowmobile to rent or to buy? The majority of people cannot afford that. I brought 44 people here to the Yellowstone area

in September of 1996 and they had a great time. But those people

won’t come back in the wintertime with the snowmobiles as the

system is now. West Yellowstone is a one horse town. They depend

exclusively on snowmobiling. There is snowmobiling outside the

park. It will not shut down snowmobiling.

Change is hard. I know that. I love West Yellowstone. But I wonder if when electricity was invented, if the candlestick makers, you

know, started being concerned about their jobs. I’m sure they were.

But in the long term. The change was better for all of—everybody.

Chairman MANZULLO. Minute’s up, thank you.

Ms. MAYHUE. And I just want to say that Kennedy did say ask

not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your

country. And I ask what we can do for the Park Service, not what

they can do for us.

Chairman MANZULLO. All right. Thank you. Like that.

Mr. CARLSON. Thank you, Congressman. My name is Earland

Carlson, Fort Dodge, Iowa, C-A-R-L-S-O-N. My wife and I are here.

We have found four other couples we’ve become friends with over

the years here. We bring our own snowmobiles. I think most of us

believe it’s a big world. There’s room for all of us. I, for one, am

hurt by the constant park bias against snowmobilers that I hear.

Time won’t permit examples. We think that the research was agenda based and I doubt that it can be reconstructed by a disinterested third party.

In Alaska, we heard that the caribou were going to die with the

pipeline. This summer we learned that the caribou numbers have

tripled since the pipeline was installed. That’s not been addressed

here today. One of the joys in the park is seeing mom and pop with

two kids on two snowmobiles. Seven eight year old snowmobiles

with the thing, going towards newer models. I see those mom and

pop——

Chairman MANZULLO. Minute’s up.

Mr. CARLSON. I call you to attention of dedicated to the benefit

and enjoyment of the people. Tear down the Northgate if you continue this way, Park Service.

Mr. MCCRAY. Hi, my name is David McCray and I have two——

Chairman MANZULLO. Spell your last name, David.

Mr. MCCRAY. M-C-C-R-A-Y. I operate 140 snowmobiles. We have

been in business since the mid sixties. My dad started the busiVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:39 May 23, 2002 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00036 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 D:\DISC\78291.XXX txed01 PsN: txed01
33

ness. And I want to come in front of you and tell you that I represent thousands and tens of thousands of families that come and

visit me every year. Some of my clients have been with me for 25

years in a row and these people came first with their children, now

they’re coming with their grandchildren.

These people asked me to come here today and tell you that this

is an important part of their life; important part of their family.

They are not interested in going in a snow coach. They want to protect Yellowstone. They have this as a very special day in their life.

And also my employees, they cannot take a transition period. It

just doesn’t happen. A transition period will—they will lose their

houses in a transition period. There’s a compromise, limited numbers, cleaner, quieter snowmobiles. We’re going there. We’re already there.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. ANDERSON. My name is Tom Anderson, A-N-D-E-R-S-O-N,

from Madison, Wisconsin. Close to you, Congressman.

My wife and I have been coming to Yellowstone for probably

eight or ten years. We rode yesterday on the four cycle motors.

Clean, quiet. I own a four cycle engine snowmobile back in Wisconsin. I think that’s the coming of our industry. If you take the

20 percent away from the businesses here that’s been talked about,

only reducing it by 20 percent. As a small business owner, if you

take 20 percent of my economy, 20 percent of my income, I might

as well close the door. I only operate on eight or ten percent of profit. Bear that in mind. There are many companies out here, mom

and pop, small ones. If you take 20 percent away from them,

they’re going to die. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you, Mr. Anderson.

Ms. LOEFFLER. My name is Cheryl Loeffler, L-O-E-F-F-L-E-R,

and I drive a snow coach previously—previous winters. And the impacts I’ve seen on just environmental issues, snowmobiles being

driven in the thermal mats, the bacteria mats—excuse me, and the

incidents with the wildlife, I feel that there needs to be quieter machines. There also needs to be education for these machines before

releasing them on the wild habitat and into the national parks or

national forests. Granted, there are many trails outside the park

and I understand that people come to the park to enjoy the freedom and of course I’m nervous. Sorry. But um, we really need to

take a good look at this issue, not just from a small business point

of aspect but also from environmental issues. And there’s a lot of

off-road travel from the snowmobiles and a lot of accidents just because they’re not familiar with the machine themselves. I would

like to see a safer environment for all persons.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Ms. DRAKE. Hello, my name is Valerie Drake. D-R-A-K-E. I live

in Belgrade, Montana. I just want to talk a little bit, since the

focus of this is on the economics of the town, about changing communities. I have watched not only small towns but some of the

larger cities in Montana change dramatically over the last 25

years. Mills shutting down, railroads shutting down. You know,

those are some of the biggies. Changes in agriculture and lumber.

And then also changes in the recreation and tourism industry.

34

When there’s a big industry that is going down, the communities

are always screaming about we’re going gonna die. I can sympathize with people. I know they’re very concerned about—more

concerned about say, feeding their families than about paying their

rents and mortgages.

But what’s really impressed me in watching some of these

changes over the years is how people get creative and how much

more quickly those communities turn around and even get stronger

for that diversity than what they were. So I want to urge you to

kind of take some of the this doom and gloom with a grain of salt.

I know it can be very hard——

Chairman MANZULLO. Minute’s up. Thank you.

Mr. WELCH. Thank you. I’m Jack Welch. W-E-L-C-H. Not from

General Electric, however. I’m here on behalf—I’m president of the

Blue Ribbon Coalition. It’s a large group of people believing in access, using our public lands in a responsible manner. We believe

that Yellowstone is an icon and should be protected. We also believe access should be provided. We feel that there are responsible

ways of accessing the park. We feel that the new technology is very

important and we feel that the pilot program that Fran Mainella

talked about is a good example of when the Park Service steps up

and manages the park for an activity, this time snowmobiling, it

can be successful. So we’re looking forward to continued

snowmobiling in the park and thank you for coming.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Ms. PHILLIPS. Thank you. My name is Lisa Phillips, P-H-I-L-LI-P-S. I wasn’t planning on talking today because I don’t like doing

it, but I had to get up and remind everybody we’re talking everybody about our national treasure here, something very, very special. Something we need to respect with our hearts and with our

souls. It’s not a place where we can all run amok.

I believe there should be a balance of different types of recreation

but we can’t just let everything happen here in all areas. And

what’s really happening, we seem to forget we’re not talking about

small businesses as much as we’re talking about padding the pockets of large corporations like Suzuki and Yamaha. The small businesses, like these gentlemen here, I’m afraid that even they’re

going to get overrun by large outlet stores from the bigger businesses, the corporations. We need to be very careful where this is

headed and not get too passionate because I think we all want to

protect these very special national treasures that we have. Thank

you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. SCHMIER. My name is Jerry Schmier, S-C-H-M-I-E-R. I’ve

been in West Yellowstone about 34 years. I am in the snowmobile

business. We run about 90 to a hundred snowmobile rentals. Been

doing it for about 30 years. I’m really concerned about some of the

statements that I hear. One of the representatives here that talked

today had mentioned, you know, against the snowmobile thing and

the coalition, and yet they don’t have to survive in the winter

months. As a matter of fact, good part of the winter months,

they’re gone. They’re not here. Their business is a summer business only.

35

So I know that you got to have a lot of different viewpoints from

a lot of different people, but believe me, if we are even cut to 500

snowmobiles in the park, it’s going to be devastating. Our peak

days is what we depend onto make a living. And sometimes, that’s

a thousand, 1,100, 1,200 snowmobiles going into the park. Keep in

mind, an equal amount—— Chairman MANZULLO. Jerry, your time’s up. Thank you.

Mr. SCHMIER [continuing]. But I hope that you will support the

snowmobile issue. Thank you very much for being here.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you for coming.

Mr. STEINMULLER. My name is David Steinmuller. S-T-E-I-N-MU-L-L-E-R. I live about 70 miles north of here in Gallatin Gateway,

and a couple of weeks, for the second year in a row, I’m going to

be spending five days back country skiing out of a facility in the

canyon area of the park, operated by Yellowstone Expeditions.

Guests stay in small heated structures with comfortable beds and

there’s a larger unit where delicious, hearty meals are prepared by

the staff each day. The staff takes people out in cross country skiing in this back country area.

This is a perfect example of a commercial operation that can be

encouraged and that could help make up some of the economic

problems that we’ve heard about. Thank you. Did I say cross country skiing?

Chairman MANZULLO. Yes. Thank you. You don’t have to be that

nervous.

Ms. STEINMULLER. Hi, I’m Pattie Steinmuller. S-T-E-I-N-M-U-LL-E-R, and I’m associated with David. I also did the same cross

country—exclusively cross country ski in this area in the park, and

in the rendezvous trail system operated by national Forest Service.

I live 70 miles away in Gallatin Gateway. I stay here. I stay in this

particular hotel in November, when we have cross country skiing,

ski camp. I—I’m devoted to—committed to helping the West Yellowstone economy with my money and also I feel that the park is

what we really deserve and need to protect. It needs to be protected

unimpaired for future generations. That is the most important mission that even in the economic situation is very important. And I

think the future of West Yellowstone lies in a very diverse economy. In the winter, particularly when the economy is so concentrated on the snowmobile——

Chairman MANZULLO. Your minute’s up.

Ms. STEINMULLER. And it needs to be more diverse. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. HEYES. My name’s Todd Heyes, H-E-Y-E-S, and it’s easy for

you to say don’t be nervous. But I moved to Montana in ’68 to go

to school. I’ve stayed in Montana since then, earning a living in

western Montana because of the beauty of the surrounding areas.

In ’95, I relocated to West Yellowstone. I’ll try to keep this short.

All I can say is the Park Service is the golden goose that we’re

all talking about. You have to keep it healthy. It belongs to the

whole Nation, not to just West Yellowstone. But there is room for

both snowmobiles and cross country skiing and all sorts of other

things. If in fact we can’t sell the beauty of this area and make a

living at it, we don’t deserve to be in business. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

36

Mr. CASE. Thank you. My name is Harold Case, C-A-S-E, and

you probably think I speak funny because I’m from the east. I am

president of the American Council of Snowmobile Association, and

I’d like to speak as a snowmobiler.

I brought 52 people from New Hampshire and Vermont here this

week. Last year, I brought 29 and they would not ride in the snow

coach. They’re here to snowmobile in the park and they are today.

Also, I came here in ’92. Most of the stores in this town were

boarded up. Today, look at what you have here. We come here, we

spend our money. This is what helps the economy of this area.

With that, I’d like to see the park stay open to snowmobiling.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. SLYKE. My name’s Steve Slyke, S-L-Y-K-E, and I’m a school

teacher and fly fish guide from Bozeman. As someone who often is

kind of a welcomer to tourists in this region and meets hundreds

of people every summer, I’m definitely an advocate of Montana and

Yellowstone Park. It’s a place where I fish and have a lot of fun

with a lot of people out here.

One of the issues that come up is when we start discussing the

West Yellowstone issues and the issues with the snowmobiles, people from Minneapolis, Atlanta, Dallas, LA, the kind of places where

my clients come from, they continually hear the headlines of poor

air quality and a lot of the things that are happening with regards

to decibel levels up and down the streets of West Yellowstone. This

place has a reputation of not having conservation first with regarding the park. And a lot of people that would otherwise want to be

here for wintertime have chosen to ski and do other things, even

active snowmobilers, because they’ve heard about what’s happening

in the west. And the spin out there right now is not good. And I

think if we’re able to diversify our economy here and have some of

these other low impact, quiet sports be part of the mix or a more

prevalent part of the mix, I think the economy overall——

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. SLYKE [continuing]. And my clients would be willing to come

back.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. HOLLOW. My name is John Hollow, I’m a product of the

park.

Chairman MANZULLO. Spell your name, John.

Mr. HOLLOW. Hollow, H-O-L-L-O-W. My mother came here from

Washington, DC, was drawn to the beauty of the place. My father

came from Livingston because he was drawn to the beauties of the

place. And my mother was smart enough to say you can’t drive——

Chairman MANZULLO. Please put the mic closer.

Mr. HOLLOW. She was smart enough to say, you can’t drive me

back east unless we’re married; and that’s why I say I’m a product

of the park.

I’d like you to look at the fact that the park is this tremendous

carrot. And thinking out of the box, can we use that carrot to get

people to get off of a motorized vehicle. You talk about jobs, but

until we get people and use what we have to get people to walk,

to ski, as Mr. Rehberg does, we’re going to be a society that continues to increase the number of people that die because we’re not

37

walking. Three hundred thousand people in America will die because they’re not exercising. You’ve got a carrot here. Use it.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. COLLINS. My name is Clark Collins, C-O-L-L-I-N-S, and I’m

the executive director of the Blue Ribbon Coalition. About 20 years

ago, my folks went into the park in a snow coach. They came back

saying that it was noisy and smelly and uncomfortable and not

that great of an experience. Shortly after that, they bought snowmobiles and they’ve been snowmobiling ever since.

I have now a ten year old granddaughter that is starting to

snowmobile. And in about six years when she gets her driver’s license and is able to go into the park, I would like to be able to go

with my parents, who are still alive and actively snowmobiling, and

my granddaughter and have four generations on a snowmobile trip

into the park. I hope you will save that experience for us, thank

you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. WHEELER. My name is Paul Wheeler.

Chairman MANZULLO. Spell your name.

Mr. WHEELER. W-H-E-E-L-E-R. I think what we are ignoring

here again is the fact that we are talking about economics here.

We’re here to talk about numbers. These gentlemen would not be

in business if the demand for snowmobiles in Yellowstone National

Park wasn’t there. Yes, I bring my own machines with me. We

spend probably seven to 800 dollars per trip when we come up

here. But the fact is the service stations wouldn’t be open, the cafes

wouldn’t be open and I’m looking at this from sheer numbers. I’m

looking at the number of snowmobile rental agencies versus the

number of bike shops or fishing shops. These gentlemen, like I

said, would not be in business if the demand wasn’t there from the

public. I bring my family. I want to see Yellowstone National Park

and I want it to see it on a snowmobile. Not a snow coach. Not on

skis.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Ms. VAN POOLEN. Hello. My name is Deborah V-A-N capital PO-O-L-E-N, and I’d like to speak to the issue of health. I wonder

what is economic vitality when you don’t have your basic health?

I have allergies and I cannot stand to ski behind a snowmobile.

The places where I can go to ski without ensuring that there will

not be snowmobiles are precious and few; and I would love to be

able to come in Yellowstone Park and know that I won’t be inhaling exhaust fumes, which are definitely bad for my health.

I read in a report that in the winter, the pollution in West Yellowstone compares to that of Los Angeles. And I’m wondering in

the future, are people gonna not be able to come here at all because

the pollution is so horrendous in the winter. I would really encourage us to broaden the abilities for people to be here and allow the

snowmobiles to go into the Forest Service lands, the BLM lands,

but allow the skiers to have some places—— Chairman MANZULLO. Debbie, your time is up. Thank you.

Ms. VAN POOLEN. Thank you.

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman, my name is Jerry Johnson, J-O-HN-S-O-N, and it’s a pleasure to speak to the Committee on Small

Business. I wear many hats, one of which is I’m the mayor of West

38

Yellowstone. Others are that we have small businesses. My family’s

been here since the forties and I’ve been here all my life.

What I want to talk to you right now is when people downplay

the 30 or 25 or 20 percent that would be lost to West Yellowstone

during the transition period, I own a small shopping mall in West

Yellowstone and it has eight shops in it, one of which is not open

in the winter, the rest are all open in the winter. And there’s no

one in that mall that can disagree with me that they struggle to

make the rent payments. They struggle to make the payments to

their purveyors. If they struggled to make their payments with

what we have going on now, I struggle because they can’t make

their payments. If we have a transition period that is a 20 percent

loss, that is going to be devastating to those small business owners.

Chairman MANZULLO. Jerry, thank you.

Ms. WHEELER. My name is Vicki Wheeler, W-H-E-E-L-E-R. I’m

a mother and I bring my children to Yellowstone. I love the park.

I love the colors of the park. I love the geysers in the park. I love

to go to Artist’s Point. I love all of it, and I bring friends with me

so that they can see it. Those that don’t have snowmobiles, we usually bring somebody all the time.

I don’t want to destroy the park. It’s never been part of me to

do anything that would hurt the park. I really am grateful for the

service that’s provided and for the new dimension that’s given to

my life, because it’s offered me things that I wouldn’t have otherwise. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Ms. KLATT. My may name is Lois Klatt, K-L-A-T-T. Thank you

for coming to listen to us. I’ve lived here for 35 years. I’m a skier

and I ski in the park three or four days every week, and I never

hear a snowmobile. I never see anybody else. The snow machines

have to stay on the roads. The skiers can go anywhere. I think

there’s room for everybody in the park.

[Applause.]

Ms. STEELE. Hello, my name is Raynetta Steele, S-T-E-E-L-E. I

own a small motel, a restaurant and a lounge and in the winter,

I struggle just to stay even. And thankfully, I have a mortgager

who works with me, otherwise, I wouldn’t be here. And I’ll guarantee you I employ about 33 people during the wintertime, and if

there were no snowmobilers, I would have to close and I would not

survive. Absolutely not survive. I struggle right now to stay even.

I could not survive now without some help.

There are some people like Jackie, she gets her money in the

summertime. I don’t get that much money. She closes in the wintertime, doesn’t survive. Doesn’t have to survive. Melissa has her

partner, herself in her industry. That’s all she has to care for. But

I have 33 people plus.

Chairman MANZULLO. You can talk afterwards about what their

interactions are. I appreciate your statement. Thank you.

Mr. OLDROYD. My name is William Oldroyd.

Chairman MANZULLO. Spell your last name.

Mr. OLDROYD. O-L-D-R-O-Y-D. I’m a hotel operator and owner in

town. Snowmobile rental operator and owner. I appreciate Glen,

Bob and Clyde’s comments today. I endorse everything they’ve said.

[Pause.]

39

Mr. OLDROYD. If you think the last 30 seconds have been quiet,

close down the park to snowmobiles.

Mr. MUIR. Hello, my name is Tom Muir. I’m from—— Chairman MANZULLO. Spell your last name.

Mr. MUIR. M-U-I-R. My family and I have been coming to this

community since 1971 on almost a continuous basis. We have

snowmobiled in most areas in the North American snowbelt. The

reason that we return to this community is because of the park. It’s

a unique feature to be able to ride your personal snowmobile and

almost reach out and touch the park.

And we sincerely like to leave it the way we found it and maybe

even make it a little better if possible. We’re not against change,

but please, do not take this unique feature away from fellow

snowmobilers. Thank you very much.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Ms. HOLLOW. Janice Hollow, H-O-L-L-O-W, from Helena, Montana. Native Montanans. I’m an avid cross country skier and this

weekend my husband and I came down—we left four friends up at

Big Sky who will not stay here because the air’s polluted. And I

haven’t heard anyone speak about having to pipe fresh air in. I

don’t know, is it a half mile or quarter mile, so the people at the

gate can have fresh air to take the money of the snowmobilers. I

believe in diversity. I think if we have—learned nothing from

Enron, it is West Yellowstone, diversify your portfolio.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. ROOS. My name is Shane Roos. Last name’s spelled R-O-OS. I own a small snowmobile rental operation here in West Yellowstone. Kind of a unique operation that I don’t have a motel or any

other properties that are associated with it. I strictly do snowmobiles. So if I am put out of business, I can go do something else.

I don’t have any property, you know, to worry about or anything

like that.

I am still concerned with the access of Yellowstone perspective

on everybody’s comments. I would very much disagree with limiting access to Yellowstone National Park or to any land in the

United States of America for that matter at all. I’ve seen the technology, I have my own mechanic, I’ve seen the technology coming.

It’s already here. We have snowmobiles that use one fourth of the

amount of gas as the current two cycle motors. The technology’s

here. It needs to be developed. Give it time to be developed. We’d

all feel really stupid if we shut the park down and all of a sudden

came out with a new electric snowmobile that has no pollution and

no noise. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. GORDON. My name is Greg Gordon, I live in Bozeman. Heard

a lot of arguments today about the economic impacts and I think

a lot of that seems that some of it is speculative as to whether

something will be hurt or it will increase, I think we need to keep

in mind the real issue is the health of ecosystem and that with our

huge growing population, that we really need to recognize that the

earth has limits and we need to look at what the impacts of

snowmobiling in Yellowstone are and keep that in mind. We know

those impacts. We know that it causes air pollution, we know that

it impacts wildlife and we recognize that. I support the ban on

40

snowmobiling in Yellowstone. I’m an avid cross country skier. I

would support a ban on skiing if I knew that it had an adverse impact upon the area which I lived and the wildlife and ecosystem

which all our life depends on.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. SCHAAP. My name is Bill Schaap, S-C-H-A-A-P, retired. I’ve

been in the snowmobile business as an employee for many years.

In 1969, I brought a group of Boy Scouts into Yellowstone when it

was more or less wilderness. And those men now still thank me for

that experience because there is no way to replace an experience

on snowmobile in Yellowstone in the hearts of 95 percent of the

people. I also have supervised and am supervising now a snow

coach operation on a part time basis. I listen and see the need for

people that need to have snow coaches with small children and so

on. The elderly and so on. But also promoting both of these industries for years, the interest is not there nationwide. The snow coach

industry on its own cannot survive. If it gradually evolves into

that, I would be very surprised. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. BLUTH. Thank you for your time. My name is Rick Bluth, BL-U-T-H. I’m from the State of Utah. I’m here as a tourist and I’d

like to testify as a tourist. I come here, bring my family, spend my

money here. I come here primarily because the park is here. We

have the greatest snow on earth. We’re bragging Utah. I don’t need

to come here, but I choose to come here because the park’s here

and I like to snowmobile and that sounds like—that was all I had

to stay. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. KRAUSS. My name is Jeff Krauss, K-R-A-U-S-S, and I’m a

resident of Gallatin County.

You ask a question about the economic impacts on the schools,

and while it’s true that the schools don’t get any resort tax, generally the schools are financed by property taxes. Those property

taxes are paid by buildings like this that depend on the industry.

And if you take that industry away and these businesses go out of

business, you will reduce the property taxes that the schools get

and you will have a significant impact on the schools. And I just

wanted that for the record since you asked. Thanks.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Mr. REHBERG. You have three more.

Mr. ANDREASON. My name is John Andreason and I’m from

Utah.

Chairman MANZULLO. Spell your last name.

Mr. ANDREASON. A-N-D-R-E-A-S-O-N. My family has a cabin in

Island Park. I rode my sled over here today just because I seen this

meeting in the paper, and I wanted to come and throw my two

cents worth in.

I love snowmobiling. I’ve had my own sled since 1969 and I’ve

been bringing people here to the park and to the surrounding area

to recreate and try to encourage people into the snowmobile industry since 1975. My family loves it. My wife broke her arm on a

brand new sled two years ago, but it’s just one of those things. I

love snowmobiling and I would like to invite you to go for a ride

anytime you want.

41

Chairman MANZULLO. I am right, after this.

Mr. ANDREASON. I would love to take you for a ride anytime you

want to go.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you for your testimony.

Mr. ANDREASON. I love snowmobiling and I love West Yellowstone.

Chairman MANZULLO. The lady who is in line now will be the

last person that will give testimony.

Mr. WINTER. My name is David Winter and I own two retail

businesses in West Yellowstone. They’re not snowmobile related

but all our income in the wintertime is generated strictly from

snowmobilers. If you ask the majority of the businesses in town,

they will all tell you that the skiing industry does not support West

Yellowstone. We cannot make it on cross country skiing alone. We

bought a snowmobile just to access Yellowstone in the winter because we love the park. That’s why we’re here.

But there is room for everybody. Skiers can go anywhere in the

park they choose to go. Snowmobilers are restricted to the roads,

period. And you really need to look at this impact that it’s going

to have on this town and businesses all over the country. Thank

you.

Mr. ROBERSON. Hi, my name is Randy Roberson, R-O-B-E-R-SO-N. I am in agreement with what Clyde and Glen and Bill had

to say here today. I’m in the snowmobile, snow coach, bus tour and

lodging business here in West Yellowstone. I grew up here. And I

just want to comment that, you know, Yellowstone wasn’t locked

up during the evolution of EPA compliant automobiles, and we’re

on the threshold of having EPA compliant snowmobiles. So let’s

don’t lock them out right now. Being in all four of those businesses,

I’ll tell you if I thought it was such a great economic idea for me

to ban snowmobiles, I wouldn’t be so opposed against it.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you.

Ms. BAYLEY. My name is Shirley Bayley, B-A-Y-L-E-Y. I’ve never

done this before. I’m a cross country skier, a snowshoer, a supporter of Free Heel and Wheel store, but I also really do like to be

tolerant and look at the broad picture and try to figure out how we

can do this for everybody. You know, economically and environmentally. I would like to challenge the man who had the moment

of silence. I would like to say, okay, I’ll get on a snowmobile and

see what it’s like, but I would also like to challenge snowmobilers

to get off the snowmobile, turn off the engine and experience the

silence of the park and the world. Silence is just something that’s

beyond economics and environment. It is a gift to all of us, that I

would like not to lose for anybody. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. And the lady here will be the last person

to testify.

Ms. ZYMONAS. I wrote my thoughts down. My name is Joanie

Zymonas, Z-Y-M-O-N-A-S, and I feel so strongly about protecting

Yellowstone National Park that I stand here before you to volunteer my time and help anyone who chooses to make a positive

change by helping phasing out snowmobiles in the park. I would

gladly share my knowledge of installing computer accounting software or bookkeeping, office management. I also am a trained jeweler, so I can share that skill with anyone who would like to learn.

42

I commend anyone out there only to stand out and make a change.

There are other ways out in the world to make a living.

I find it very disturbing that the children of this community requested restrictions on snowmobile use because the noise impacted

them during the school day and the adults of this community voted

it down. I think all community members should be heard. There is

at the chamber of commerce in Bozeman and I’m sure they would

provide that service for anyone here. It’s called SCORE. Service

Corps of Retired Executives. They give free information for anybody who wants to become an entrepreneur and open up their own

business. I spoke with some of them and they give free information.

They’re there to help.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you. Congressman Rehberg, want

to give a closing statement?

Mr. REHBERG. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I want to once again thank

you for making your time available to come out and listen to the

residents of the State of Montana and our guests from our surrounding States. I want to thank the panelists for bringing their

testimony forward and understand that it would be carried forward

not only in the United States Congress but to the national park

services as they attempt to make their various recommendations.

It’s a testament to the people of the Montana that as we listen

to the one minute comments, that it was almost pro and then con

and pro and con, but done in a very civil way. And that’s the way

Montana is.

Chairman MANZULLO. I think you should all give yourself a big

hand for that.

[Applause.]

Mr. REHBERG. The emotionalism that is usually surrounding a

national issue such as land usage can oftentimes cloud our ultimate decision making process. But those of us that take public administration seriously always want to have an opportunity to hear

from you. We represent you in the United States Congress. And

sometimes that’s hard because in some issues, it’s split 50/50 or 70/

30, and it’s hard to make those decisions, but we try to make the

right decision. We can’t do that without your input. That was what

this hearing today was an opportunity to do.

Again, I thank Chairman Manzullo. I have a placard on the back

table back there. It’s a comment card. It’s got my toll free number,

got my Web page, got my email address. I continually look for ways

to open up the dialogue to include the people that I represent in

Congress. If I can serve as any intermediary between the Federal

Government, sometimes doesn’t sound like it’s listening to you or

doesn’t seem to care, we hope to fill that role. If you’ll pick up one

of those cards, fill out the comment card if you have additional information, if you just like to get on our list. My gentleman back

there, Tom, is holding it up. You can see it’s a yellow card. It’s for

comments. I hope that you will take the time to do that. I thank

you for taking your time out of busy days. I know we’ve only got

24 hours in a day. It’s important enough for you to be here. I thank

you again, Don, for taking time out of your schedule to be in Montana.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you very much. First of all, I want

to thank the witnesses that have testified. You’re all local business

43

people. You don’t come from national organizations with a national

agenda but you’re testifying from the heart as to how these proposed regulations will impact you and the community. We could listen to the professionals from the big organizations in Washington.

But when we come out here to a field hearing, the very purpose

of that is to hear the hearts and attentions of the people who are

dramatically impacted by it.

I want to commend the five panelists here and everybody else in

the room, especially those who also got up and made the statements. I also want to thank the Park Service for being here, listening, taking lots of notes, making sure that this undoubtedly will be

part of the comment period because that’s the reason for this hearing.

The name of the hearing is Protecting Small Businesses and National Parks: The Goals Are Not Mutually Exclusive. I think it’s

important that that is the perspective from which I come as chairman of the Small Business Committee. As I’ve listened to the testimony here, it’s obvious there is room to meet the interests of everybody. The new four cycle engines, our new generation, it’s not the

two cycle, noisy, polluting machines of the past.

But also is the opportunity to take what is a very difficult situation and to turn that around for good for entire community. I’ve

never fly fished before. I’ll be back. I’ve never been on a mountain

before bike before. I’ll be back. In fact, I was telling Denny on the

way down here, I’ve got to find a reason to come back in the summertime. And he suggested another reason for a hearing. And we

can find good reasons to do that. The quality of the testimony and

the demeanor of the people here, I believe, is exemplary of the

process that’s going on.

The part of Illinois that I represent contains a 13,000 acre facility formerly known as the Savannah Army depot. During World

War One it was an ordnance center, where ordnance was fired to

test the quality of the range, et cetera. Several years ago, 400 jobs

were lost from that area as a result of the latest round of closing

down military bases. In the midst of trying to piece together a recovery plan, we ran into an incredible log jam with, not the Park

Service but the Fish and Wildlife Service, the local redevelopment

agency, the State and Federal EPA and the Department of Army.

I saw all this—I don’t want to use the word contention, but lack

of coordination going on, because everybody was trying to get their

interests involved. In fact this area right on the Mississippi. It has

part of the glacial prairie in it. Very few areas in the world that

have glacial prairie area. It’s also a nesting ground for bald eagles.

You wouldn’t think you’d have these things in northern Illinois.

And right next to it is the largest mallard duck breeding facility

in the world in a little town called Hanover, Illinois.

So our area, even though it’s heavily industrialized, also is very

sensitive ecologically. We have 12 super fund sites in our congressional district. We always have to look at balance. How do we balance the needs of nature with the needs of man. How do we balance keeping people in the business at the same time making sure

at that time goal and the mission of the national parks system is

maintained. One of the ways that we could that is through hearVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:39 May 23, 2002 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00047 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 D:\DISC\78291.XXX txed01 PsN: txed01
44

ings and public forum like this. People come together, they put the

input.

As I listened to the testimony of all the witnesses, it occurs to

me that there is a way that the National Park Service can come

up with a plan to satisfy everybody’s interests. Maybe not to the

extent that they would want, but to satisfy and still keep the park

system as pristine as all of us want it to be.

When I was in China two weeks ago, I had the opportunity to

speak at Fudan University. This is a group of about 250 students

that are studying the American government. And I’m invited to go

back in November and teach the basis of constitutional law and

what gives rise to the freedom in this country. At the end of that

incredible two hour forum, a young man stood up, speaking English

in a very nervous tone. It was a second language. He said you

know, Congressman, maybe one of the reasons that the Chinese do

not understand the Americans is the fact that in our country, we

don’t have the freedom of expression that you have. And the place

was very silent. And on the way out, the Chinese interpreter said

Congressman, five years ago, nobody could make that statement

without being ushered off. She said, now people can make these

statements.

What these 250 young Chinese are doing is they’re studying the

genius of the American system. I wish they could have been here

today. This is the town hall meeting, this is the type of meeting

that exemplifies the beauty of the First Amendment and the need

for everybody to have a part in making America the great Nation

that it is.

Again, thank you for coming. We appreciate the opportunity to

be here and I will be on a snowmobile or snow coach within one

hour. Thanks again. This meeting is adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

45

46

47

48

49

50

51

52

53

54

55

56

57

58

59

60

61

62

63

64

65

66

67

68

69

70

71

72

73

74

75

76

77

78

79

80

81

82

83

84

85

86

87

88

89

90

91

92

93

94

95

96

97

98

99

100

101

102

103

104

105

106

107

108

109

110

111

112

113

114

115

116

117

118

119

120

121

122

123

124

125

126

127

128

129

130

131

132

133

134

135

136

137

138

139

140

141

142

143

144

145

146

147

148

149

150

151

152

153

154

155

156

157

158

159

160

161

162

163

164

165

166

167

168

169

170

171

172

173

174

175

176

177

178

179

180

181

182

183

184

185