ENSURING EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY 

FOR MINORITY CHILDREN 

HEARING

BEFORE THE 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM 

OF THE 

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND 

THE WORKFORCE 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

HEARING HELD IN LEXINGTON, KENTUCKY, MAY 1, 2001 

Serial No. 107-14 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Education 

and the Workforce

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

77-671 pdf WASHINGTON : 2002 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office 

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: (202) 512-1800 FAX: (202) 512-2250 

Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402-0001
ii

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

JOHN A. BOEHNER, Ohio, Chairman 

THOMAS E. PETRI, Wisconsin GEORGE MILLER, California 

MARGE ROUKEMA, New Jersey DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan 

CASS BALLENGER, North Carolina MAJOR R. OWENS, New York 

PETER HOEKSTRA, Michigan DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey 

HOWARD P. “BUCK” McKEON, California PATSY MINK, Hawaii 

MICHAEL N. CASTLE, Delaware ROBERT E. ANDREWS, New Jersey 

SAM JOHNSON, Texas TIM ROEMER, Indiana 

JAMES C. GREENWOOD, Pennsylvania ROBERT C. “BOBBY” SCOTT, Virginia 

LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina LYNN C. WOOLSEY, California 

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana LYNN N. RIVERS, Michigan 

CHARLIE W. NORWOOD, JR., Georgia RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas 

BOB SCHAFFER, Colorado CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York 

FRED UPTON, Michigan JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts 

VAN HILLEARY, Tennessee RON KIND, Wisconsin 

VERNON J. EHLERS, Michigan LORETTA SANCHEZ, California 

THOMAS G. TANCREDO, Colorado HAROLD E. FORD, JR., Tennessee 

ERNIE FLETCHER, Kentucky DENNIS KUCINICH, Ohio 

JIM DeMINT, South Carolina DAVID WU, Oregon 

JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia RUSH D. HOLT, New Jersey 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia HILDA L. SOLIS, California 

JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois SUSAN DAVIS, California 

TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania BETTY McCOLLUM, Minnesota 

 PATRICK J. TIBERI, Ohio 

 RIC KELLER, Florida 

 TOM OSBORNE, Nebraska 

 JOHN ABNEY CULBERSON, Texas 

 Paula Nowakowski, Chief of Staff 

John Lawrence, Minority Staff Director

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM 

MICHAEL N. CASTLE, Delaware, Chairman

BOB SCHAFFER, Colorado, Vice Chairman DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan 

THOMAS E. PETRI, Wisconsin ROBERT C. “BOBBY” SCOTT, Virginia 

MARGE ROUKEMA, New Jersey LYNN C. WOOLSEY, California 

JAMES C. GREENWOOD, Pennsylvania RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas 

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York 

FRED UPTON, Michigan LORETTA SANCHEZ, California 

VAN HILLEARY, Tennessee HAROLD E. FORD, Jr., Tennessee 

VERNON J. EHLERS, Michigan HILDA L. SOLIS, California 

THOMAS G. TANCREDO, Colorado SUSAN DAVIS, California 

ERNIE FLETCHER, Kentucky MAJOR R. OWENS, New York 

JIM DeMINT, South Carolina DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey 

JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois TIM ROEMER, Indiana 

TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania RON KIND, Wisconsin 

RIC KELLER, Florida DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio 

TOM OSBORNE, Nebraska 

JOHN ABNEY CULBERSON, Texas 
iii

Table of Contents 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN MICHAEL CASTLE, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION 

AND THE WORKFORCE............................................................................................. 2

OPENING STATEMENT OF CONGRESSMAN ERNEST L. FLETCHER, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION 

AND THE WORKFORCE............................................................................................. 3

STATEMENT OF RICHARD GREENE, UPWARD BOUND MENTOR, 

CRAWFORD MIDDLE SCHOOL & LEXINGTON TRADITONAL MAGNET 

SCHOOL, LEXINGTON, KY........................................................................................ 6

STATEMENT OF ABDON IBARRA, DIRECTOR, HISPANIC SERVICES, 

LEXINGTON, KY.......................................................................................................... 8

STATEMENT OF ERRAN F. PERSLEY, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, YOUTH 

OPPORTUNITY GRANT PROGRAM, DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT 

SERVICES, WASHINGTON, DC................................................................................. 9

STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT MURRAY, PRINCIPAL, MARTIN LUTHER 

KING, JR. ACADEMY FOR EXCELLENCE, LEXINGTON, KY............................ 11

APPENDIX A – WRITTEN OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN MICHAEL 

CASTLE, SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, COMMITTEE ON 

EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE................................................................... 33

APPENDIX B – WRITTEN STATEMENT OF RICHARD GREENE, UPWARD 

BOUND MENTOR, CRAWFORD MIDDLE SCHOOL & LEXINGTON 

TRADITONAL MAGNET SCHOOL, LEXINGTON, KY......................................... 39

APPENDIX C – WRITTEN STATEMENT OF ABDON IBARRA, DIRECTOR, 

HISPANIC SERVICES, LEXINGTON, KY ............................................................... 49

APPENDIX D – WRITTEN STATEMENT OF ERRAN F. PERSLEY, DEPUTY 

DIRECTOR, YOUTH OPPORTUNITY GRANT PROGRAM, DEPARTMENT OF 

EMPLOYMENT SERVICES, WASHINGTON, DC .................................................. 55

APPENDIX E – WRITTEN STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT MURRAY, 

PRINCIPAL, MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR. ACADEMY FOR EXCELLENCE, 

LEXINGTON, KY........................................................................................................ 67

Table of Indexes............................................................................................................ 73
1

HEARING ON ENSURING EDUCATIONAL 

OPPORTUNITY FOR MINORITY CHILDREN 

_______________________

Tuesday, May 1, 2001 

House of Representatives 

Subcommittee on Education Reform 

Committee on Education and the Workforce 

Washington, D.C. 

 The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., at the Booker T. 

Washington Elementary School, 798 Georgetown Street, Lexington, Kentucky, Hon. 

Michael N. Castle, Chairman of the subcommittee, presiding. 

 Present: Representatives Michael N. Castle, Ernest L. Fletcher, and Johnny 

Isakson.

 Staff Present: Robert W. Sweet, Jr., Professional Staff Member. 

Chairman Castle. Ladies and gentlemen, good morning. If you want to break up in the 

back, we have a responsibility to move forward with our hearing. And obviously we are 

in a place where the sound is going to be a little bit difficult, so please give as much 

attention as you possibly can. Officially, our subcommittee is present, so the 

Subcommittee on Education Reform will come to order. We are meeting today to hear 

testimony on how to ensure educational opportunities for minority children. Obviously, 

we would like to first thank Booker T. Washington Elementary School for hosting this 

hearing today. I appreciate your hospitality, and I'm sure all of you do as well, and I am 

pleased to be here. I'm here to listen to our witnesses; but before I begin, I'd like to get 

unanimous consent fourteen days to allow member statements and other exchange 

material referenced during the period to be submitted to the individual hearing record; 

without objection. So ordered. Before we go forward with opening statements, I would 

refer to the most important person up here and that's the host, Congressman Fletcher. 
2

Mr. Fletcher. Thank you, Chairman Castle. We are very honored to have you and 

Congressman Isakson here, two members that have tremendous depth and experience in 

education. Our chairman of the Education Reform Subcommittee is chairing this hearing, 

and Mike Castle's history; he’s been on the Education Committee for a number of years 

as well as former governor of Maryland who worked there. Excuse me. Delaware. I 

don't want to be misleading here. Delaware. Anyway, Congressman Johnny Isakson 

from Georgia who is chairman of the State Board of Education, there for several years, 

and also brings a wealth of experience. We want to welcome you. I want to thank 

Crystal Lampiers, the Fayette County Schools Student Faculty staff at Booker T. 

Washington for allowing us to be here and for their hospitality. Let me turn it back to the 

chairman. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN MICHAEL CASTLE, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, COMMITTEE ON 

EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

Chairman Castle. Thank you. We appreciate the opportunity to be here. My name is 

Mike Castle and I am the Chairman of the Subcommittee, and I want to welcome all of 

you today and thank you for the welcome. We're here on a hearing for ensuring 

educational opportunity for minority children. I'm especially pleased to be here in 

Lexington at Dr. Fletcher's request, and the active role that he plays and Mr. Isakson 

plays in the state committee. It is a tremendous importance. 

 When we return to Washington, D.C. This week, the education of our children 

will be the number one priority of the American people, the Bush Administration and our 

Committee. As we all know too well, too many children are not getting an education that 

will prepare them to function in the new system. Many children are not obtaining basic 

proficiency or academic subject areas, and the learning gaps in our best and our poorest 

performing children are growing wider not smaller. Worse, this learning gap breaks 

down by major racial groups with a disproportionate number of African Americans and 

Hispanic students performing low proficiency in reading and math. I believe, and 

President Bush agrees, that if we are to continue to advance in the country, this disparity 

will not stand. For this reason, President Bush has instituted a comprehensive plan to 

ensure that those problems are kept in mind and is introduced to the House of 

Representatives as H.R. 1. As a matter of fact, the Committee is starting tomorrow; 

among other things, to consolidate school programs. It focuses federal resources in ways 

we believe will truly improve educational opportunities for all children. Specifically, it 

focuses federal dollars on programs designed to support the learning of children from 

low-income families, children who are not proficient in English and other national 

priorities such as technology in state schools. H.R. 1 also directs more decision-making 

authority to those states and local levels; teachers, principals, parents, and other interested 

parties who know best how resources are to be used including schools in Kentucky and 

across the nation. More importantly, H.R. 1 finds other support for improving academic 

achievement for all children and especially those who are apparently being underserved; 

someday following provide additional resources and additional accountability to support 
3

state, local levels in education. Those dollars will no longer fund the programs that 

impair our children. 

 Finally, among other things, H.R. 1 makes a clean start. It does it to ensure that 

all children are able to read by the end of second grade by tripling the amount of funding 

currently divided for this purposes. These are just some of the many provisions that are 

contained in H.R. 1, and your testimony will be helpful to us when we seek to further 

refine this bill. For this reason, I think we are particularly fortunate to be joined by such 

a distinguished panel of witnesses. Dr. Fletcher will proceed with his statement and 

introduction of witnesses, but I would like to note that we have a broad cross section of 

experts who are actively involved in education and reform. I think we have a lot to learn 

from your experiences in classrooms in following education. 

 With that, I want to thank all of you for your interest and your willingness to 

testify here today. I would also like to thank Dr. Fletcher and his staff for organizing this 

important hearing so we can work together to ensure that we improve educational 

opportunities for all children and especially minorities. And with that, I'll turn it to 

Congressman Fletcher. 

WRITTEN OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN MICHAEL CASTLE, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION 

AND THE WORKFORCE – SEE APPENDIX A 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CONGRESSMAN ERNEST L. 

FLETCHER, SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, 

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

Mr. Fletcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, again, I appreciate all of you for 

attending this hearing. There are members of several schools, superintendents, and 

several teachers. We also have some council members here, so I want to welcome all of 

you. Thank you again for coming. I believe that education is one of the most vital issues 

facing the future of America. I believe it's one of our greatest responsibilities. In April, 

the National Center for Education Statistics released the fourth grade reading assessment 

results for 2000, which revealed that the education gap between white, non-white 

students, has not reduced but has, in fact, increased. And it's shown that it is the closest 

gap of non-succeeding, and a gap that's even growing wider. These disturbing results 

underscore the fact that the United States in our education policy of the past four (4) 

years has really failed the significant portion of America's students. In fact, we failed 

those students that need the help the most, the disadvantaged students. The failure to up 

students who are most vulnerable, society of poor education, poverty, poor health care 

and low paying jobs cannot be tolerated. 

 Literacy, I believe, is the hinge upon which all of our education turns; and without 

it, success is impossible. That's why President Bush's plan describes literacy as a new 

civil right, and I wholeheartedly agree. We are working to pass these bold new Reading 
4

First and Early Reading First initiatives. Reading First and Early Reading First are only a 

head start. These programs will help close the achievement gap that separates our 

disadvantaged students from the rest of the public school system. Reading First will 

begin the journey to our national goal of achieving literacy for all students in the third 

grade and will authorize an extra six or seven billion dollars a year for reading programs, 

tripling the funding for literacy in the year 2002. It would also invest five million dollars 

over the next five years in reading programs aimed at the children in kindergarten to the 

third grade. You know, it takes more than money. Our education plan improves local 

schools, empowers parents and teachers to get the flexibility needed to address the local 

needs, not a one size fits all fix, and is planning to ensure accountability, raising 

expectations to ensure that no child is left behind. Plato stated that one of the purposes of 

education is to teach a child to fall in love with virtue, and H.R. 1 includes twenty-five 

million dollars of character education, tripling the current funding. It's a common sense 

approach to the problems that are facing our youth today. It gives our schools the 

resources they need to instill virtues of honesty, personal responsibility and justice. Our 

schools cannot and should not hold, hold sole responsibility for shaping a child's 

character, but they do play a very important role. 

 This legislation is about giving every child hope for the future and the opportunity 

to fulfill their individual dreams. H.R. 1 also recognizes the importance of mentoring. 

Every child needs a responsible adult to lead them, to provide an example of success 

through courage and nurturing every child. We also know as we look here locally that 

the achievement gap that we see nationally, and is true for Kentucky as well, that reading, 

math and science gaps affects Kentucky's non-white students just as they do America's 

large urban areas. The achievement gap we hear so much about does not only affect huge 

American cities like New York and Los Angeles, but is right here in Central Kentucky.

We must work together to do all we can to fight this growing problem and ensure that 

every child in our school is given the tools he or she needs to succeed later in life. 

Former Kentucky Secretary of Education, Bob Bates, said our system of education, and 

all elementary education, has failed to do the job for far too many of our children. It 

threatens the future of our nation, and it's something that the American people will no 

longer tolerate. The polls show that the American people agree at sixty-seven percent.

You have heard or read about H.R. 1 leaving no child behind, and this is where crosses 

parting lines that the majority of Americans believe that no child left behind will help 

improve education in America. But our goal, however, is not how partisan and political it 

is.

 Our goal is to make the necessary changes in the education of all America's 

children, children so that they may have the opportunity to succeed in whatever 

endeavors they pursue later in life. H.R. 1 will help ensure literacy, English proficiency, 

teaching quality, ensuring math and science education, safe schools, and education 

technology improvements. Our goals are the same, if we, all racial and ethnic 

backgrounds, all Americans, work together, there is nothing we cannot achieve. I look 

forward to hearing the testimony of the panel assembled here, and the witnesses represent 

several different aspects and view points of what needs to be done to bridge the 

achievement gap which troubled disadvantaged students in America for so many years. 

Their personal experiences and views on education is the reason for this hearing today.

Mr. Chairman, would you like me to go ahead and introduce the witnesses? 
5

Chairman Castle. Why don't we let Johnny comment. Johnny Isakson, as you've heard, 

is instrumental in education, and what you did not hear is what a wonderful member of 

the Committee he has been in terms of smoothing over a lot of problems and elevating 

education for the children in America. He has been a tremendous help on the Committee 

and we're very pleased to have Mr. Isakson. 

Mr. Isakson. Well, thank you, Chairman Castle, and I'm going to be very brief so as not 

to take the time of the distinguished panel, except to say this, it's a delight to be in 

Lexington. It's a delight to be in Dr. Fletcher's own district. Ernie and I came to the 

United States Congress at approximately the same time. He has been an absolute delight 

to work with and is evidenced by some of the comments I received; they've obviously 

been very effective, as this lady was telling me, in helping with the programs. We are all, 

Congressman Castle, myself and Congressman Fletcher, are absolutely committed to the 

federal government being a catalyst for improvement on education at a global level, but 

not a dictator at the local level, and how to run your school. President Bush's program is 

the first major increased investment with accountability in education since the advent of 

501 in the 1960s. I have told everybody in public education that I run into, find their 

little differences at the present over this overall program, to stop and think that in 

America about once every generation an opportunity comes for education where a leader 

comes along who adopts it as his number one priority and is working to improve it. So as 

we talk about the many aspects of the President's proposal and H.R. 1 that we're talking 

about here today, let's not forget, as educators and as parents and children who are the 

recipients of public education, this is our shot in the barrel really for a generation to make 

a substantial improvement in the direction and the assistance that comes from 

Washington and local public schools. Your input will be very valuable to us today. And 

I am very honored to be in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. Thank you. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you, John. We will announce these witnesses. 

Mr. Fletcher. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate each of the witnesses 

today. As I said, they bring a variety of experience, and thank you. I'll go ahead and 

introduce each one of you here starting with our right. Mr. Richard Greene. He's served 

on the committee that I've established, the Minority Committee, that has addressed a lot 

of the problems and reviewed H.R. 1, for me, has given us some input to take back to the 

Committee in Congress. Mr. Greene has a Bachelor's Degree from Langston University, 

Oklahoma in 1968, a Master's Degree from the University of Kentucky, a Teaching 

Certificate in Mathematics, Secondary, grades 7 through 12. He has officially worked in 

Fayette County Public Schools, 1968 till 1999. He's been a math teacher, a football 

coach, Adult Education teacher, assistant principal, ACT/SAT math tutor, and currently 

serves as a math tutor with the Teaching Opportunity Program, the TOPS program, U.K., 

from 1994 till today. And thank you for joining us, Mr. Greene. 

 I'd like to also introduce Abdon Ibarra. He currently serves as the Hispanic 

Services Director. He has a history of serving in the U.S. Army and Vietnam War in the 

44th Medical Brigade. His history and education life, has a Bachelor of Arts from 

Antioch University, has a law degree in 1982 from the University of Texas School of 

Law in Austin, Texas, and he served, designed the Mobile Migrant Farm worker Health 

Record System. He designed the Migrant Home base Headstart Services Model to 

provide a continuum of services to migrant farm worker children both in their home base 
6

state and in the migrant trek. Again, he's currently the Hispanic Services Director of 

Lexington-Fayette Urban County Government here in Lexington. 

 I would like to introduce also Mr. Erran Persley. He's a Lexington, Kentucky 

native, and is educated at Howard University in Washington, D.C. He is now a resident 

of Washington, D.C. He works for Mayor Anthony Williams in the Department of 

Employment Services as the Deputy Director of the Youth Opportunity Grant Program. 

Glad to have you here today, coming down to join us. 

 I'd like to introduce Principal Robert Murray. He's the principal of Martin Luther 

King, Jr. Academy for Excellence. He's been an educator of children for twenty years.

He's worked on the Education Minority Advisory Committee for the last several months 

and has provided very good input to this bill. Mr. Murray, we're glad to have you here 

today.

Chairman Castle. Thank you very much, Congressman Fletcher. And I would also 

point out that Ms. Elaine Farris was to join us here today; because of scheduling 

problems she was unable to do so. Let me try to tell you what we, let me try to tell you 

what the ground rules are. First of all, it's a very large audience. We appreciate that. 

You may have a chance to participate before this is all over. You may or may not 

appreciate that. But we'll have each witness testify. Basically, the testimony is supposed 

to be for five minutes. I am the one running the clock up here. I'm not very mechanical 

oriented, so this thing could backfire badly; but it works practically, I think the green 

light is on for four minutes, the yellow for one minute and then the red. We're not going 

to hold you to the exact time. When you see the red, you need to start sort of thinking 

about winding up. That will be helpful. And then the three of us may choose to ask you 

all, the panel, some questions. We can be here until noon. At noon we have to get in the 

car and head for Cincinnati so we can get back in time to vote in Washington, D.C. But 

when the panel is done, and we're through with questions there, if there's time left over 

and we think there will be, we're going to go to the audience for whatever questions you 

may have. We'll talk about that a little more when the time comes. So you may want to 

be thinking about that a little bit. And I think we'll go in the same exact order that you 

were introduced. So, let's start with Mr. Greene. We'll hit the magic clock here and see 

how that works, and we look forward to hearing from you. 

STATEMENT OF RICHARD GREENE, UPWARD BOUND 

MENTOR, CRAWFORD MIDDLE SCHOOL & LEXINGTON 

TRADITONAL MAGNET SCHOOL, LEXINGTON, KY 

Mr. Greene. Congressman Fletcher and members of the Committee, I appreciate this 

opportunity. I will begin my testimony with a description of a school situation involving 

a student named Johnny. Johnny lived in the Government Housing Projects with his 

mother, younger brother and sister. His mother worked two jobs, one full and one parttime, to assure her family a decent standard of living. In August of 1990, Johnny entered 

the sixth grade with a record of better than average grades and behavior. He was polite, 

well mannered, neatly dressed and eager to start school. His first two weeks of school
7

went by without a major incident. Other than getting lost a couple of times and failing to 

open his combination locker on one other occasion, he had done well. 

 But, by the start of the fourth week, Johnny began having academic difficulties in 

Language, Arts, Social Studies and Science. His required weekly writing journal for 

Language Arts and questions at the end of chapters, assigned as homework, for Social 

Studies and Science were incomplete or not done at all. His mother was contacted and a 

parent/teacher conference was scheduled. During the conference, teachers agreed to 

monitor and sign Johnny's assignment book each day. His mother agreed to read his 

assignment book each evening, sign it, and have Johnny show it to each of his teachers 

the following day. The Language Arts teacher ended the conference by suggesting to the 

mother that she consider testing Johnny's reading ability as the next viable option. When 

monitoring and several additional parent/teacher conferences, and a subsequent 

placement in the school's afternoon school tutorial program did not produce the desired 

academic results by the end of the nine-week grading period, Johnny's mother decided to 

have him tested. 

 The results of the testing were spirit shattering. Johnny's reading comprehension 

was listed at 3.6 (3rd grade-6th month) and vocabulary was listed as 3.9 (3rd grade-9th 

month). Not one reading category was listed as greater than or equal to 4th grade.

Recovering from her initial shock at hearing these scores, the mother asked, "How did 

my child get this far, reading this badly?" 

 Conversations with three of Johnny's former elementary school teachers revealed 

that Johnny's passing grades in reading were never based on reading books at grade level, 

but on reading books that matched his ability. It was quite possible, that in 5th grade, he 

was reading from 3rd grade books. Additionally, an intensive review of this cumulative 

folder revealed that Johnny, judging from his performance on the kindergarten 

assessment tool, started kindergarten well behind his peers. Seven years later, in 6th 

grade, he was still behind, with very few options for catching up. 

 If the situation just described were an isolated incident involving a single student, 

then the law of averages could be adequate justification. But, it is not. This situation 

occurs with disturbing frequency each and every school year. Johnny is not a single 

student. He is a composite representation of the 300 disadvantaged students that I have 

personally guided through very similar situations. While each situation differs slightly, 

they all have two glaring characteristics in common. One, the students entered 

kindergarten with a knowledge base so lacking in the most basic skills that he/she was 

easily considered to be grade level behind in his/her first formal year of public schooling. 

And, two, their reading level entering 6th grade was below fifth grade level. 

 A lack of knowledge of the most basic skills; color and picture recognition, letters 

of the alphabet, rote counting, and numeral comprehension; and poor reading skills are 

the factors most responsible for the low literacy rate of disadvantaged students and the 

existing achievement gap. If increasing the literacy rate of disadvantaged students and 

closing the achievement gap are to be accomplished, early identification and effective 

intervention are critical. Ensuring that children of poverty have mastered the basic skills 

necessary to become effective readers by third grade will eventually narrow the 

achievement gap. The research shows that, if children leave third grade not reading, they
8

are candidates for failure in English, Social Studies, Mathematics, Science, etc., and most 

importantly, life itself. The nation can ill-afford to allow this destructiveness to continue. 

Thank you. 

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF RICHARD GREENE, UPWARD BOUND MENTOR, 

CRAWFORD MIDDLE SCHOOL & LEXINGTON TRADITONAL MAGNET 

SCHOOL, LEXINGTON, KY – SEE APPENDIX B 

Chairman Castle. Thank you very much, Mr. Greene. We appreciate that. You've 

already raised important points that we'll get back with you later. Mr. Ibarra. 

STATEMENT OF ABDON IBARRA, DIRECTOR, HISPANIC 

SERVICES, LEXINGTON, KY 

Mr. Ibarra. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Congressman Fletcher. Excuse me. Lexington 

kind of attacks the allergies. I thought Austin was bad, but this is bad. Nonetheless, 

historically the dropout rate for Latino/Hispanic students has been the highest in the 

nation. Latino parents have felt powerless to do anything about their children's journey 

through an educational system that has often ignored their plight. Latino students and 

their parents have to overcome perceptions of it because many are not permitted in the 

Southeastern United States; the Latino student did not or should not have a quality 

education. This population, in terms of potential problems, needs to be provided public 

services, especially educational services. At this time the fastest growing minority group 

in this country is the Latino/Hispanic population, and it is important that any legislation 

aimed at improving the lives of disadvantaged student offer these parents a choice. In 

addition, that same legislation must make an offer to make the educational system 

accountable to all students. The results of this answer can be seen in the widening and 

increasing educational gap between African-American students and white students in this 

area. The same educational system must learn not to repeat the mistakes of the past. 

Parents must have notice on the educational plan for their children. They must know that 

schools must perform at a certain level; and that based on the success or lack thereof, that 

they have a choice to shop for a better school. They must have confidence in the integrity 

of the legislation to ensure that these funds are being committed to the goals and 

objectives of that legislation. 

 But the most important provision of any legislation aimed at the improvement of 

the educational system must provide the means and education, teachers of these 

institutions. Teachers, held in the highest esteem by Latino/Hispanic parents, must learn 

how to teach these children. Labeling and separating these children is not a legitimate 

purpose of any educational plan. H.R. 1 speaks to all of these concerns and can have a 

beneficial effect on the educational opportunities of all disadvantaged students. The 

overachievers of this legislation must protect these benefits with consistent application of
9

the safeguards, and swift sanctions for the non-performing schools and programs. For 

many years, funds have been set aside to enhance the opportunities of disadvantaged 

students whether it be Latinos, Hispanics, African-American, Appalachian or migrant 

farm workers, only to be gutted by funds for raising in that legislation. H.R. 1 contains 

such a provision. This provision sounds like, sounds like a proverbial loophole. Care 

should be taken of school programs; and request transfers under this provision must 

adhere to a standard of relevance. Schools making requests to transfer funds to other 

programs must be scrutinized. This scrutiny should ensure the program's advantage, the 

object of the transfer, be relevant and consistent with the mission and goals of H.R. 1. 

This cabinet is advanced because although the population of disadvantaged continues to 

grow, and the census shows that Latino students are growing by leaps and bounds, other 

programs may be of higher priority. This has happened before. Let the integrity of 

vigilance secure that legislation is successful in a social environment marked with 

increasing diversity for agility and flexibility of change. 

 Bruce Cant, Director of the Center of American and Metropolitan Policy of the 

Group Institute said that because of the shifting of ethnic and racial balance of every 

population, cities must rethink public structure and deliver health care. Public Education 

General Municipal Services is to pick up the younger and larger minority plans. H.R. 1 is 

a good foundation to begin building for the future. Thank you. 

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF ABDON IBARRA, DIRECTOR, HISPANIC SERVICES, 

LEXINGTON, KY – SEE APPENDIX C 

Chairman Castle. Thank you, Mr. Ibarra. Some of the things you mentioned there will 

be looked at as we go through the Committee, great timing points. Mr. Erran Persley. 

STATEMENT OF ERRAN F. PERSLEY, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, 

YOUTH OPPORTUNITY GRANT PROGRAM, DEPARTMENT OF 

EMPLOYMENT SERVICES, WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. Persley. Thank you very much. Good morning. I want to thank Congressman 

Fletcher and the Subcommittee on Education Reform for this opportunity to talk on this 

important topic. I had the great honor of talking to Ernie Fletcher at length about 

education and youth development in our country and I am encouraged by his 

commitment to create an educational system that truly leaves no child behind. My 

experiences as Acting Director of the D.C. Youth Opportunity Grant Program, and as a 

youth advocate have convinced me that youth development and education are a crisis in 

this country today. However, I must state that my views are my own and should not 

attributed to an organization with which I am affiliated. Although I currently live in 

Washington, D.C., my commitment to education and to this state are deeply rooted. I 

was raised in Lexington, Kentucky. I went to the Lexington School and I graduated from 

Lafayette High School. My assistant principal sits to my right. During that time my 
10

mother worked for the Fayette County Board of Education and would later go on to work 

for the Kentucky Department of Education where she became intimately involved in the 

Kentucky Educational Reform Act. 

 So as you can see, from childhood I was taught that education is valuable and is a 

right, a very young person should be educated in this system and should not be infringed 

upon by economic status or physical location. In the past few months, the unemployment 

rate in Kentucky is the lowest it has been in thirty years. Along with that, large segments 

of our society have been denied economic bounty. The problem is crucial for our 

minority youth community, especially African-Americans and Hispanic Americans. 

Statistics released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in 1999 show African-American outof-school males ages 16 to 24 living in urban poverty areas have an employment rate of 

50 percent. Hispanic females out of school have an employment rate of 33 percent. 

That's in contrast with white out-of-school males who live in non-poverty areas who 

enjoy an employment rate of 84 percent, and white females in non-poverty areas who 

enjoy an employment rate of 76 percent. I give you these figures not to contrast black 

versus white, but to contrast young people growing up in non-poverty areas as opposed to 

young people growing up in poverty stricken areas. Eighty million dollars has been spent 

since 1990 for disadvantaged students in this country. However, test scores remain 

virtually the same. 

 The education dilemma must be addressed at grassroots level and we must entrust 

our parents to make decisions that affect the lives of our young people. By expanding 

school and parental choice we empower our citizenship to make decisions on their 

children's education. By allowing parents to remove their children from failing schools, 

we force those schools to direct their energy toward making sustainable improvements in 

their educational system. Allowing students to leave inadequate schools and use federal 

dollars to attend another public or private school, or to receive supplemental educational 

services from another provider of the parent's choice is the first step in improving 

educational opportunities for our young people. School choice and the option of federal 

funds for private school attendance are good instruments to bridge the current failing 

educational system, so that our young people do not have to sit in failing schools while 

we develop a strategy to reshape the educational system. However, it must be understood 

that this is just a bridge; the real goal must be to establish a public school system that 

gives them quality education whether they live in the hills of eastern Kentucky, the center 

of Chicago, or the suburbs of Los Angeles. Even as an immediate plan, school choice 

won't work for everyone, the demand overall is too great. But, if we develop a system of 

school choice and funding for other creative tutorial, character education, and academic 

enrichment programs we can serve a majority of our nation's children. However, 

ultimately, to effectively deal with the issues of education and poverty we must look at 

the problem in its totality and come to some resolve, realizing that each state, county, and 

city has diverse needs and issues. So we must come up with a national plan that lays the 

framework while empowering the states and local governments to address the issues in 

their own innovative ways. We must implement comprehensive plans that are sensitive 

to social, physical and economic dynamics of each community. Our President has made 

education a top priority and with committed members, like the subcommittee here and 

Congressman Fletcher, we can begin to reshape this nation's educational and youth 

development systems. "No Child Left Behind" is the framework for a comprehensive 

vision for improving education in our inner cities and rural communities. But it is just a 
11

framework; it will take the commitment of our nation's schools, churches, and 

community based organizations, local and federal officials to make it work. The 

President has developed the outline. It is now up to each of us as citizens to develop our 

local action plans to fit the overall framework. It was an old African proverb, and that's 

what we're planning, the first stage, "It takes a village to raise a child." This time is now; 

our children can't wait another day. I thank you for this opportunity. 

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF ERRAN F. PERSLEY, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, YOUTH 

OPPORTUNITY GRANT PROGRAM, DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT 

SERVICES, WASHINGTON, DC – SEE APPENDIX D 

Chairman Castle. Thank you very much, Mr. Persley. We'll hear now from Mr. 

Murray, and obviously he has a distinguished background, which you've heard about. 

STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT MURRAY, PRINCIPAL, MARTIN 

LUTHER KING, JR. ACADEMY FOR EXCELLENCE, LEXINGTON, 

KY

Mr. Murray. Thank you. First of all, just let me take a minute before I begin to thank 

Congressman Fletcher for taking the time to sit and meet with us over the last several 

months, sitting with us, hearing our talks, interacted with us, and I do want to say that I 

think that Kentucky is very fortunate to have you represent us in Washington, so I just 

wanted to say that. I'm here in speaking in support of the portion of the President's bill 

that speaks to character education. I'm a big supporter of character education, always 

have been. As the congressman said when he introduced me, I'm the principal of Martin 

Luther King, Jr. Academy of Excellence, and I'd like to begin my testimony with a quote 

from Dr. King. In twenty-six years of education I've read many things, but I don't think 

I've read anything more powerful than his words. 

Dr. King said this, and I quote, "I often wonder whether or not education is fulfilling its 

purpose. A great majority of the so-called education people do not think logically and 

scientifically. Even the press, the classroom, the platform, and the pulpit in many 

instances do not give us objective and unbiased truths. To save man from the morass of 

propaganda, in my opinion, is one of the chief aims of education. Education must enable 

one to sift and weigh evidence, to discern the true from the false, the real from the unreal, 

and the facts from fiction. The function of education, therefore, is to teach one to think 

intensively and to think critically. But education that stops with efficiency may prove the 

greatest menace to society. The most dangerous criminal may be the man gifted with 

reason and no morals. We must remember that intelligence is not enough. Intelligence 
12

plus character those are the goal of true education. The complete education gives one not 

only the power of concentration but also worthy objectives upon which to concentrate.

The broad education will, therefore, transmit to one not only the accumulated knowledge 

of the race but also the accumulated experience of social living”, end quote. These 

words, in my judgment, embody the general mission of all educational programs and 

institutions. In order for us all to reap the benefits of our educational labors, the 

institutions and processes that build the "minds of students" must not take lightly their 

responsibility in part to build the "character of students." The traditional academic 

curriculum will give students the necessary tools needed for productive jobs and careers; 

character education will give them guidance for the use of those tools. Putting it another 

way, a carpenter can build a house with his tools or tear one down; or, a shovel can be 

used as a constructive tool to plant or to prepare a foundation for a young tree; or it can 

be an unearthing tool that unsettles or weakens the foundation of an old tree. These 

analogies are simple but realistic illustrations of Dr. King's philosophy. Without 

desirable character, one has no intrinsic guidance for the use of the skills they have 

attained. 

 In recent years, the proliferation of violence in our cities and towns has now 

invaded the boundaries of public educational institutions. Though schools are still 

considered some of the safest places for youth, there is cause for growing concern. And 

I'm sure you'll agree. Bizarre incidents such as those having occurred at Columbine, 

Paducah, and others have heightened the fears and anxieties of parents and school 

officials all over the country. Reactions have varied from increased numbers of 

uniformed officers, locks and buzzers on doors, zero tolerance discipline policies, 

criminal records checks for parents and teachers, and others. The public school of the 

21st century is sadly taking on the image and characteristic of the juvenile institution of 

the 20th century. In spite of the current reactions and responses, the number of violent 

incidents appears to be on the increase. We have attempted to provide tangible solutions 

to problems that stem from intangible causes, that is, lack of ethical and moral character. 

Responses such as those mentioned earlier give an illusion of solving behavioral 

problems by creating short term or temporary compliance with rules and regulations, 

when in reality, the distorted value or belief system that sustains the student's negative 

inclinations remain firmly planted within the student's psyche. Student self discipline 

motivated by a proper belief system is the missing but needed source for positive student 

behavior. Character education at home and school is one necessary means to achieving 

these desired ends. 

 My day to day experiences with students over the years and particularly in recent 

years has confirmed my belief that many students are lacking an ethical foundation 

needed to guide their thoughts and actions. Many students, when questioned thoroughly 

about negative behavior respond in ways that clearly indicate a distorted value system or 

the lack thereof. They can tell you that they believe a certain act is "right or wrong" but 

cannot adequately explain why they believe it is "right or wrong." My observation is that 

disruptive student behavior stems from the student's perception of good versus bad, right 

or wrong, likes and dislikes, and other similar things. When the value system that shapes 

these perceptions is distorted, it is usually acted out in what we identify as negative 

behavior. Every individual at some point will voluntarily or involuntarily establish a 

belief system that could be good or bad. Ideally, this belief system will become rooted in 

what I call universal character principles such as altruism, human worth, honesty, respect, 
13

responsibility, justice, self-discipline, courtesy, citizenship, and knowledge. I believe it is 

safe to say that these character principles are universally viewed as desirable attributes of 

character, regardless of creed or religion. They must be woven into the fabric of our 

educational processes and taught consistently. In this regard, the public school must 

augment the parent's efforts to develop their children socially and in character. These 

principles, if taught comprehensively, should transcend ethical and moral teaching and 

extend to a heightened knowledge of self, history, culture as well as a respect and 

appreciation for diversity. 

 Across the country, character education programs are found to some degree in 

most school districts. Some programs involve direct teaching of identified character 

principles; others integrate them among the academic subject matter. The format may 

vary but the intended goal should be the same, that is, the development of productive 

citizens who positively contribute to our societies. It has been said in both education and 

politics that, quote, "It takes a village to raise a child." That village being the public or 

private school, the home and family, and usually the faith based institution of choice.

These three must function in harmony to build good students and good people. Though 

each has its distinct role to play, all three should overlap within what the law allows. The 

sole responsibility for character development can no longer be relegated to individual 

families and private sources alone. The public school has a role to play and must make 

Character Education a priority, determine a system to measure its attainment, and require 

its implementation. It is my belief, that Character Education should be an integral part of 

our American education system at every level but with particular emphasis in the grades 

K through 8. I applaud President Bush's administration's choice to include Character 

Education as a key part of its educational legislation. Thank you. 

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT MURRAY, PRINCIPAL, MARTIN 

LUTHER KING, JR. ACADEMY FOR EXCELLENCE, LEXINGTON, KY – SEE 

APPENDIX E 

Chairman Castle. Thank you very much, Mr. Murray. We appreciate that. We enter 

into the period of this hearing now which gives us, to ask you questions. We try to limit 

this to five minutes, but it never works with members of Congress. I'll start the ball 

rolling and then go to the others. My question actually is going to be probably a lot more 

general than even what we've talked about here today, but I'd just like to stress that I am a 

total believer that education begins at the very youngest age, actually the health of the 

mother when the child's in the womb and then when the child is born. I'm also convinced 

that what we do to help a child before the child ever gets near a school is something so 

extraordinarily important, that is, our present parents helping; are their parents literate? 

Are the parents there? Issues such as this. Another thing is, I'll tell you what I really like 

about Bush's education plan and why I'm such a strong supporter, and that is, the extra 

money and time we put into the reading, the, so you can read by third grade. I'm an 

absolute believer that you have to read by third grade. If you can't read, you're going to 

get in trouble the rest of your educational experience. I think we heard that a little bit 

with Johnny when you were talking earlier. And then I think the standards and 

assessments and the testing, and then not just that, but just filling in with time. Different 

children are making an effort 3rd, 4th, 5th grade. We're getting into the time where it's 
14

important to help them, so all of a sudden you don't have 8th graders reading at third 

grade level, which is really what the problem is today. 

 This is, as stated up here, the most major education orientation done on federal 

government level ever, other than perhaps the original adoption of the Elementary and 

Secondary Education Act thirty-five years ago. And so as a result, we are dealing with 

very, very major issues, and I think that that's an extraordinary importance. We can't let 

kids progress just biologically. We have to make sure they can progress academically. 

What I'm going to ask you is off the subject of the bill. But back in my earlier comments, 

there are a series of federal programs; there's the Head Start Program, which you know 

about I'm sure. There is an Early Start Program that is basically helping families in terms 

of their necessities that they can help people with, whatever it may be. There's obviously 

day care, which is just that at this point. It's mostly day care. There are nutrition 

programs; there may be some of other federal programs. But I've always believed that 

education is partially cultural. I think the lower income you are the more likely you are 

to have problems as far as education is concerned, and you add to that the fact that you 

have a different skin color, speak a different language, you have added complications in 

terms of developing those kids in American society. We need to change all this, we need 

to find out changes right away. 

 And my view is that if we double some of these earlier education programs, we 

could take strong steps in the right direction particularly for those kids who aren't getting 

enough help at home. I'd be interested in your comments on that, the importance of those 

early programs, and maybe early programs here in Kentucky or other places in terms of 

what they're doing with respect to kids. 

Mr. Greene. Well, from that standpoint of Early Start and Head Start and some of this 

all-day kindergarten that are doubting their children, there needs to be improvement, but 

this needs to be more widespread. My basic feeling is that after being in the middle 

school for most of my career, is that once we get to middle school it's nearly too late to 

do anything more about it. I guess what I'd like to do is that if you want a strong tree you 

start with the roots and the cultivation. If you want to build a good solid house it's got to 

be on solid foundation. And so if you want kids to get a good education to make them, if 

nothing more than just good citizens, and to appreciate reading and whatever, then 

without the reading, you know, we're not talking about it. 

Chairman Castle. Mr. Murray, do you want to comment? 

Mr. Murray. I'd like to comment briefly on Kentucky's Preschool Program, which is the 

closest part of Kentucky reform, which is designed to serve at-risk three and four year 

olds. It's a needed program because it's limited, I think, to that population. I really feel 

like all students can benefit by this, not just those at risk. And it's shown, of course, 

many of us come from different situations and have the, some have the good fortunate of 

good early education and others don't. But I can certainly see the need for at-risk three 

and four year olds, and I believe all kids. I guess if somebody would provide funds to, to 

support that, but I would support it for all kids not just those at risk. 

Chairman Castle. Mr. Persley. 
15

Mr. Persley. I just have one comment on that. I come from Washington, D.C., and so, 

of course, I support all the early programs, Head Start, Reading Start. But there's another 

problem in our society, that is, that in my area I deal with fourteen, sixteen, eighteenyear-olds that have children of their own, and education truly begins at home. And what 

kind of education can those fourteen, sixteen, eighteen-year-old mothers give to their 

children. So we have to talk about programs that reach the homes, young mothers and 

fathers, help them to educate their children also. So it has to be, has to look at it from 

both sides of the cycle because, yes, we need programs that catch them in the beginning. 

There are a whole lot of people who are already committed who make sure that education 

is being developed, and then grow along with their children to stop that cycle. 

Chairman Castle. That's in lieu of the Character Education Mr. Murray talked about.

People talk in terms of these kids when they're having babies. Mr. Ibarra, do you have 

any thoughts? 

Mr. Ibarra. Yes, I do. Basically my first job coming back from Vietnam was working 

with Head Start, working for Head Start for ten years. It was my Head Start 

programming. But one of the things that I found that strengthened that early education 

part was that there was parental involvement. And one of the significant things, and I 

think this is important, and it could be that once you involve the whole family, the child 

is basically learning how to learn, and by offering them a choice they see that in 

education there is a choice. But basically the cornerstone of Head Start has been giving 

the child an early inclination of his learning. So Head Start, for me, has always 

exemplified or should be included in the education program. Parental involvement, 

choice, curriculum; I remember that was my job. We worked with parents. And all the 

parents have chosen what the child needs in learning, and we need cooperation or 

collaboration of the parent and the teachers to develop a plan. I feel an obligation to say 

this, that Kentucky, the southeastern United States is different from the southwestern 

United States where the majority of Latinos are in Texas and Austin and New Mexico 

where my mother was from, also Arizona, California. We are going to a transitional 

period now where you see a lot of Latino and Hispanic children. But I think basically the 

principle of Head Start should be somehow incorporated into any education. 

Chairman Castle. I think you mentioned; I should have; Head Start, for example, we 

have incorporated the need to have more people working Head Start, having teacher 

certification. And I, in my hometown of Delaware, which is a majority of minorities, I 

met with the people who were running this, and they just want to make sure that their 

own employees have the opportunity to be certified as part of that, the importance of that. 

Well, thank you. Let me turn it over to Congressman Fletcher. 

Mr. Fletcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank each of you for your testimonies. I 

think you bring a good spectrum of input here. Let me say first, and I know there are 

several folks that are involved with KERA, Mr. Persley you mentioned your mother. 

KERA's principles are mainly the same principles that were implemented in H.R. 1. 

More local control, accountability for particular testing are done in a little different way, 

but I think some of the principles that we've seen here are principles that work well. We 

still have a long way to go, but are being implemented in H.R. 1. Let me ask a question 

of each of you or have each of you answer this. As we met with this Minority Advisory 

Committee, we were often hearing barriers, impediments to really implementing, and I 
16

know Mr. Greene you have mentioned some, that allow the freedom here locally to really 

address some of the concerns and problems. Let me say, let me ask you, I know we've 

got a lot of very talented teachers here. We've got a great leadership in the community, 

but for some reason we're not closing the gap. And our gap here in Fayette County, in 

Lexington, Central Kentucky, reflects nationally. And actually if you look at it, we're on 

the lower side of the national level of things. So what are some of the barriers we can 

eliminate that would help us address this problem and really give these children an 

opportunity?

Mr. Greene. Well, with regard to flexibility, my feelings are that if the child can't read, 

then we shouldn't be teaching much of anything else until we make sure that child can 

read. But the school structure does not allow the flexibility. I mean, you can have fortyfive minute pullouts, but the child in 6th grade reading at third grade level; you need 

more than forty-five minutes. I mean, that child may need to be blocked off in a threehour block for reading, writing, discussing, and we just need to make sure that they learn 

to read. And that's one of the biggest restrictions that you have is on, on the physical 

planning and on the human resources because you can't block out one teacher for three 

hours to deal with a set of, of students because they have other responsibilities. So one of 

the barriers I see that's up the road. That's like you're in the middle of the road, and you 

can't turn back. It's what we're doing now but you can't lie down on cancer. It looks to 

me if the kid's still dying from underneath. So what we need to do is when we finally get 

to the attention of the year before we have to intervene because we're there simply by, my 

own feeling is just stop and teach the reading. If you can't read then the rest of the stuff is 

irrelevant. And we need the flexibility to say you're reading at a certain level and we will 

keep you until 9:00 to 11:30, however, to 12:30 or whatever it takes until you, you know, 

you can read. 

Mr. Ibarra. That's going to be hard to follow. I think that we all try to share or compare 

our own personal developments a lot. I, myself, was with the center of migrant farm 

workers. I learned to read when I was three in English and in Spanish. And I think that 

inspiration of that leadership, and I think that Mr. Greene is totally correct. Reading, 

especially for language, our language is a challenge for Latinos, Hispanics. I think that 

reading is the experience that they should be given. Reading is the core of anything. So if 

it requires three hours of a program that is specifically designed to increase the reading 

skills, it should be handled. But it should not mean to keep them because they have a 

second language in a category that would only impede them throughout their life. And 

does not mean that the child should be in the corner because he can't read in English 

without knowing whether he can read in Spanish. The testing should be part of that, an 

adequate testing, including the parents to provide the social aspect, the socialization for 

children to see how intelligent and talented they work at home, handling his situation at 

home, and see how much he's taught, how much their passing at the situation at school, 

but I think that reading is the key. 

Mr. Persley. I concur with these gentlemen. I just want to add that what they said is 

definitely correct, but there's another issue here about funding for programs outside of the 

regular school walls. We have to look at programs that help our young people outside of 

the school structure. Our current system is not working. We have to look at programs 

that have great innovative ways of teaching our young people. All children don't learn 

the same way. The current approach has to be changed. We have to start looking at 
17

alternative ways of teaching our young people. We have to provide funds for that. We 

innovate our teachers with all different kinds of young people. Not every member needs 

a traditional classroom setting. So we have to start focusing on ways to create alternative 

ways so that all of our young people can learn. All people can learn. Thank you. 

Mr. Murray. Let me say, the achievement gap between minorities and majorities is a 

very complex problem. It is the number one priority in this district; and the one focus in 

our district is on literacy, improving reading, for that leads to a step in the right direction.

It is one step and one solution to one cause of the problem. Problems stem from social 

reasons, economic reasons, interactive reasons between teachers and students, practice. It 

is a host of things that affect that gap. And the first step to solving the problem is 

understanding the problem. To what extent we understand it, I'm not sure. Though our 

reform in Kentucky is certainly on the cutting edge of reform, and I think it has received 

some admiration in the states, the surrounding states, it has its parts that need to be 

improved. I do not think the numbers of teachers and administrators has increased. In 

order to address the social and interactive things that take place among students, the 

intangible things that are not necessarily academic in nature, but affect these choices. We 

have to be understanding and sensitive to the fact that our teaching status must be diverse.

They must contain the ability to address any and every problem that the child comes 

forthwith. Sometimes I think it's simply a clear misunderstanding of not knowing how to 

get through to a particular child. There is no one, no one, no simple solution to the very 

complex problem. And the first step to identifying it is laying out, recognizing exactly 

what's causing it. 

Mr. Fletcher. Thank you. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you very much. We appreciate that and all the good questions 

and answers from all of the witnesses. Now we'll turn it over to Congressman Isakson. 

Mr. Isakson. Mr. Greene, I understand the fact that your hypothetical underachiever is 

named Johnny. I thought that was one of the best pieces I have read. And I want to make 

two comments and one of them begs a question. I do agree that folks who come from a 

disadvantaged high poverty area are the ones most at risk, and I agree with your 

comments. The President's earlier meeting, first initiative is money and resources as well 

as flexibility, whatever; teachers use what's best. But you made another statement. And 

in that statement you, you talked about this hypothetical student who by the time they had 

been promoted to the 5th grade and actually assessed upon their reading, three years, 6th 

month, I think is what you gave, my belief is that President Bush's testing of reading and 

math beginning in the 3rd grade will help us change that dynamic because we're really 

going to have to start measuring before it's too late. Am I right or wrong? 

Mr. Greene. You're right, but I'd like to start it earlier. I want to start it earlier. I want 

to start when, when they're first born. My own feeling is that the kids who are in poverty 

more than anyone else need an education. The one thing that they have in abundance is 

intelligence and I can develop that. What I can't provide is breakfast for them. I can 

teach them to go figure out how to get breakfast, you know. So the problem is, it's back 

to that little proverb that says if you give me a fish, I give you a day to teach me to fish 

for a lifetime, and I just think we're at the point where we have to make the decision that 
18

first of all, we have to make sure that we understand that all kids can learn. 

Mr. Isakson. And don't misunderstand. I agree with everything you said here. I want to 

repeat what I said. My question was specifically with regard to require annual testing of 

grades 3 to 8. I agree with you on resources. I agree with you on early childhood 

development. I heard everything that was said. Your reference in this was that teachers 

were passing them because they were grading him based on his level, the level that he 

could read not the level he should be reading which tells me in the absence of an 

assessment or measurement, some kids are actually being passed along because they're 

reading well at the level they're at even though it's two years behind where they are. And 

my question to you is: This is not a loaded question, am I right or am I wrong if we put 

an annual assessment on reading component in at 3 through 8, aren't we more likely to 

have higher expectations for these kids and get better results, or am I wrong? 

Mr. Greene. We would, and if we added another program to that. What happens to the 

kids when they don't meet the expectations? See, we've been retaining kids. I'm not, I'm 

not against retaining them, but I don't want to retain a child and just repeat the same 

thing. I think there ought to be, if we keep a child back because they didn't meet those 

standards, then there ought to some kind of program to make sure that they do. I mean, 

we've got everything in place. So I'm all for it. I'm all for the standards. I think that's 

what one of the problems, we don't have the standards. We're so busy, I don't know, 

dealing with the self-esteem that we forgot to teach. 

Mr. Isakson. You really got your self-esteem. 

Mr. Greene. Yes, sir, I do. 

Mr. Isakson. Mr. Ibarra, I come from the state where two of my school districts, five 

years ago, had less than a fraction of one percent Hispanic students. Now I have over 

fifty. You made a statement in your testimony that cautions us against flexibility or 

transferability in funds. And as I understood it, it was probably out of some fear that 

limiting, efficient funds might go to some other program other than Hispanics. Is that 

correct?

Mr. Ibarra. Right. 

Mr. Isakson. Okay. Just want to ask you this question. It's also true that flexibility 

might allow more money to go to eliminating student programs in those areas where they 

have the flexibility to take other funds where they don't have the need and put it in a 

concentrated program. Is that a fair statement? 

Mr. Ibarra. My concern is this: Having more funds has been around for a while, and 

those funds include, where you've said, like reading 5 or 6, have not been able to design 

or concentrate to make those funds for the purposes that they were. I've heard that. I've 

had the opportunity to deal with many people in the educational profession, in the 

educational profession here in Kentucky, from the people themselves, telling me that this 

has been done. And I've seen it in other states, in Texas. It's essential that we safeguard, 

that loophole, not to widen itself in terms of those programs that may be adequate to meet 

specific needs of these children, that not go to support some other program, it becomes, I 
19

don't know, acceptable at that school. My concern is specifically and simply this, that it 

should be that standards that are used to allow these changes be specifically enforced.

And those programs are relevant. 

Mr. Isakson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Castle. Mr. Murray, although, you quoted Dr. King, you did so beautifully in 

your quote. I assume it's yours, there's no question, is the best I've heard about where 

we've been messing up on. You say in your testimony we attempt to find tangible 

solutions to the problems that are intangible causes, and you were talking about using 

mental, integrities and all these other things, Columbine violence when talking about 

students, and I agree with you. Character Education is important. It's unfortunate it's 

important. I will say that. It wasn't important when I was going to school in the '50s 

because I was more worried about what my father would do to me when I got home. 

That's changed the world. You hear about attention deficit disorders. I think parental 

deficit disorder is the biggest problem we have right now in terms of disciplining these 

kids, and I don't say that to criticize the parents, but the ones who just aren't engaged. 

And that takes me to my final question. In your character education program, to what 

extent do you try and draw in the parents with the kids? I mean, if we have a lot of kids 

coming in and we don't have a value system and these character terms are not things upon 

which they make a lot of decisions. You are at this school. Correct? 

Mr. Murray. No. I'm at Martin Luther. 

Chairman Castle. In your school or in your programs, is there a component of your 

character education that hopes or helps to bring the parent in so maybe it just goes 

beyond the classroom back to the house? 

Mr. Murray. The program that I run is a determined alternative program, most 

participants are students who do not do very well in public schools. Many of them will 

come from what we would term as disadvantaged. Many times those parents are not 

frequently found in schools. What we determine to do in realizing that was to try to 

remove every barrier we could to parent participation. In fact, our campaign was to open 

the doors. Now, this was prior to the legislation that required parental criminal record 

check, which is kind of complicated. So we would open the doors and we extended 

invitation to parents to be in the school constantly. Our hope was that the schools be 

innovated with parents because we found schools that have parents all the time involved 

in these schools. The parent sits right along the side of the child in the classroom and 

watches, experiences their education. If the parent wants to volunteer or help in the 

school he is at liberty to do that. So we remove the barriers to all the schools. We will 

simply make an attempt to begin parent participation through traditional means, normally 

takes place unless there's a conflict. This is what we did and we removed the barrier. At 

the beginning of this year I sent a letter out, and I mentioned this to Congressman 

Fletcher, I sent a letter to every parent. It was a letter for the parent to say it's truly 

important. The letter requested the employer give the parent at least two days a year off 

without loss of leave or pay to be in the school and help and participate with their child.

Right now if I'm called to jury duty I'm allowed to do that. If we did it in education there 

may be less of a need for me to be called for jury duty. So, I strongly support those kinds 

of things. It's innovative. And I'm hoping that somehow in your city maybe monies can 
20

be found to supplement the employers or corporations and they be allowed to do it.

Because that will do, that will put parents in the school at least two days a year. What 

parent if they could take two days from their job without pay, allowed to leave, why 

would they not go to the school. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you. Let me sort of shift gears here for a moment if we can. 

We're going to sort of bring this to a closure, this portion of the hearing. What I'd like to 

do is give the audience an opportunity to participate in this. I'm going to try to sort of 

keep the same guidelines if I can. If you have a statement we don't want to take more 

than five minutes on the speaker so we can get around to a number of people. And we'd 

like to use you all; answer briefly and I'll try and call on you, but we don't need everyone 

to comment. If every single statement is made, we might be here forever. You are more 

than welcome to make statements. You're welcome to ask questions. And you can ask it 

on anything as it relates to education. This is a Subcommittee of Education Reform. Our 

subject matter is limited to that; and so as a result, we need to make sure it's restricted to 

the subject of education. But try to be as brief as you can so that others will have an 

opportunity to comment or to ask questions. Where's Daniel? Daniel's got the 

microphone over there, and as you can tell, the acoustics are a little bit difficult in this 

gymnasium so you will have to speak and enunciate clearly as you can so that we can try 

to pick it up. It will be necessary if you can for the record state your name and anywhere 

you're from, like Lexington or wherever you may be from. 

Ms. Barrot. I'm Regina Barrot. I'm a research associate at the University of Kentucky 

and a research associate for the Cloone Institute. And I live in here in Lexington, 

Kentucky. I'm a native. One of the questions that was presented, asked, what are some 

of the barriers to the, addresses the achievement gap. One of the concerns that I have is 

the way that the funds are disseminated for disadvantaged students. I think a process is, 

the way it is currently, I believe the monies are disseminated through the Department of 

Education through the title of the programs, et cetera, and I think a lot of citizens see that 

this process is not making a significant impact in terms of closing those achievement 

gaps. So I guess my question is: Do you have any ideas or know the process for 

disseminating funds to, to create programs for educational opportunities for kids? And 

the other gap, the other problem that I see, is that there's no current system in place; let 

me just rephrase it a little bit different. Teachers have to get a certain amount of 

professional development. And part of the professional development if they want to 

teach a multi-cultural education to a multi-cultural student population, they have to learn 

about the culture. They have to learn through strategies and working with these students.

Now, they have had certain amount of professional development; however, there's no 

standard that's in place that they have to, that they have to take professional development 

in certain areas. And I think that's the barrier. If they're not interested in changing their 

ways of thinking, their strategies, their teaching, then they will not be, they're not, and 

they don't have to do it. So I think that that's the barrier as well. 

Chairman Castle. Let me try to take a stab at it on a couple of those things. I don't 

know the specifics of this, but I think it's very important to understand what we are doing 

in this H.R. 1. First of all, the federal government funds seven percent of all education 

across the United States of America. That's probably roughly true equalization or close 

to it in the country. Here in Kentucky that's probably true here, too, if I had to guess it 

would be seven percent. The dissemination distribution of funds is of overwhelming 
21

importance. And when you come from a small state like I do, Delaware is a very small 

state; we depend a lot on the state. When you come from bigger states they all put all the 

money into some dated, some different processes that is through local school districts or 

even local schools, and we get into that argument. We are going through that right now 

with this legislation. Now I will tell you, and I've been sitting on this and John's been 

sitting on this, but we have a meeting on this and we're doing a lot more distribution of 

formulas, but similar formulas where the amount of money then goes to a state or to a 

local school district by levels of poverty as opposed to just population. That's shifting 

quite a bit from the previous Elementary and Secondary Education Act. This particular 

act is much more poverty-directed than it's ever been before. We've actually signed a 

Page Title 1 in our Committee, the appropriators have not done that because we need 

Title 1, which, just got a little bit too broad, and we wanted to go more to those children 

that really have greater needs, but the appropriators have so many suburban people that 

say they need that money. It's very difficult. You couldn't get it passed those problems, 

so we're doing that for you. It's very difficult. So as a result of that we are, we're taking a 

hard look at how these funds are distributed or disseminated. We're also stressing 

flexibility. Some community states have taken advantage of it so far. I'm not sure where 

Kentucky is. But the education flexibility legislation we passed the last year and we're 

going to have more flexibility in this legislation. To sort of answer your second question 

which is a question of professional development in respect to teachers. 

 We're also trying to support flexibility, so when we go to professional 

enhancement of teachers, we will give to the local states and districts more flexibility in 

terms of how they're going to spend that money. Having said that, I for one am not 

totally happy with all I see in the use of those funds, and as I see this has doubled. I see 

programs developed not as meaningful as they should be. Now, as you go through this 

bill, there's a whole series of different titles. And each title may have a different formula 

for all of this. There's no one common program, so it's hard for me to answer the 

specifics of it all. Generally, I think you'll be pleased with the direction that this bill is 

taking. Does anyone want to take a crack at it? 

Mr. Fletcher. Let me just say, first, I'd like to thank you for your work when you served 

on the Advisory Committee for me and you're very helpful. But, you know, if you're 

wondering, though, ninety-five percent of the money goes right back into the schools and 

get more of the resources back locally in the schools. I can offer administrative reasons 

and other things. That's difficult; but we're moving in that direction with ninety-five 

percent which would alleviate the problems you've mentioned that the fact that the times, 

sometimes it gets down and I'm not sure how much gets down there. 

Chairman Castle. This is an interesting point. I met yesterday with my governor and 

the superintendent of education in Delaware. We were sitting there talking about how we 

were at the meeting, and, you know, I know the governor well, and she said, well, her 

goal is to get I think it's eighty percent of all state dollars admitted into the classroom. So 

she's basically trying to use all the federal money for overhead administration so the state 

money could be going to the classroom. We in Congress say we need that ninety-five 

percent of the money to be given to the states to go to the classrooms. Frankly, I mean, to 

tell you somehow, my only input is that we need to have some administration. We need 

to have money in the classroom, and I don't think they'll disagree up here. I don't think 

you will disagree, ultimately where you educate a child is in the classroom. Sometimes 
22

it's support the business structure such as this, to support the teachers and help them; you 

do need government administration type of spending, so it's a very interesting point. I 

never heard anybody on the state level on that point we're making at the federal level 

with respect to where the dollars go on that particular issue. 

Ms. Shafer. My name is Sandy Shafer, S-h-a-f-e-r. I'm employed at Fayette County 

Schools, and I'm a graduate of Layette. I'm also the elected official for Fayette County 

here and I am currently working on, Fayette County Schools strategic plan. I think I've 

heard a lot of comments about the saying, ‘it takes a village to raise a child’. My 

comment is that a child's learning is through play, and we need to incorporate arts in 

academics as well as recreation because the child does learn outside the classroom. And 

there are many of us, who looking at a book, is not going to be like getting out on the 

stage speaking in front of people is something that's going to increase your ability to 

work with others and to look at yourself as to how you can perform under pressure in a 

team event. You're in the state of Kentucky where twelve men have taken basketball to 

the heights of religion and that is not something that is a builder of confidence. These 

young men who started out in our educational system, when they practice for two hours, 

they, and they're practicing for four million people because they were, and the same state 

in this city right here we have the state high school boys and girls champs in basketball, 

they carry those high school teams. 

 So if you don't think that recreation is a main part, you're wrong; I guess I wish 

Harry Bonson had been affecting me. I would be out there in that ball field. I would 

have taken you all to those heights, too, if I had that opportunity. So I want this to be for 

all students because economically, socially, every time we talk about a student, it needs 

to be across the board the same, and it's not only recreation, but it's arts, because the arts 

build character. We're talking about character development and that's where it really is. 

In this state you have cut those qualities back so that it's very deficient and it's not as 

easily accessible particularly to kids who really need that. In this state you have 

cardiovascular issues. We have the highest heart disease. We've got to get our kids out 

there exercising. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you very much. Johnny Isakson. 

Mr. Isakson. Ms. Shafer, I appreciate your comment, but I want to make a comment in 

response. Mr. Greene, Mr. Murray, Mr. Persley all addressed it. When I chaired the 

State Board of Education Authority we tried to raise academic standards, the arts folks, 

the P.E. Folks, the music folks. There's always a special interest, and I understand that, 

but Mr. Greene said it right. If a kid cannot read by the end of the 3rd grade, he can't read 

the rules of the game; he can't read the sheet music or anything else. So my point is, what 

we're trying to do is get enough resources in the early development of children so they 

have the competency base to be whatever they can be whether it's a screen writer, an 

artist, a football player or a physicist. And this is what the President's plan is about. So 

as we talk about reading and math, as we talk about early childhood, as we talk about 

limited English proficiency, we're not talking about it to the detriment of the arts, P.E. 

And music. We're not talking about it to the detriment of physics, but we're talking about 

it, and Title 1 is all about this, if we can't get them to a basic level of competency before 

they have all the choices in life then they're not going to have any choices at all. So your
23

comments are correct. 

Chairman Castle. I'd just like to say one thing. I actually agree with what you're 

saying. I think it's twice as important, sometimes the only outlet that some kids have 

many confidences. It's important to keep that up. We don't fund this at the federal level 

in terms of schools, so it's really a local, state decision to working you into the schedule, 

but I would also point out that outside of school, like in Delaware, one out of four kids is 

involved with the YMCA and YWCA, and one out of seven kids is involved in the Boys 

and Girls Club in our state. So there are other activities, too, which are not from school 

function, but we need to make sure it's a holistic view on all these areas. 

Mr. Mile. My name is Leonard Grant Mile. I'm the Executive Director of the 

Renaissance Learning Program. We are a privately funded educational foundation and 

our only purpose for existence is closing the achievement gap. We had the privilege of 

working for Fayette County Schools in a number of locations. The after school programs 

really address these problems, and I am glad to say that working very closely with 

Fayette County Schools we have, in fact, closed the achievement gap with the students 

that we are dealing with. The one quote that I want to leave you with today is that this is 

not something that could be done in five years, in ten years, in twenty years. This is 

something that can be done right now, every day, right here. We're doing it at Johnson 

Elementary School and we're doing it in Northern Elementary School. When we started 

there it was the tenth lowest scoring school in the state. It is now the National Title 1 

school. We all have the ability to do this. I just want to speak very briefly to a couple of 

issues that were raised right here. 

 The first thing is the need for diversity approaches. We've got to have a thousand 

different experiments. This nation was founded on liberty. It was founded on choice. It 

was founded on the ability to do things in different ways. One size does not fit all. We 

have a program every day from 3:00 to 6:00 where we started advanced placement 

programs for inner city children in kindergarten where they get language, accelerated 

mathematics and a great book literacy program. Our kids are learning at three times the 

rate of children who are not in this programming. Their literacy scores have gone in one 

semester from a way below average to average in one semester, and it's not that we're 

geniuses. It's not that we're brain surgeons. These are very, very fundamental things, but 

we have had, as a private organization, the flexibility to bring in an arts program where 

our kids get drama and music every day, bring in Read Books and Literacy Program. 

And, again, we're still being privately funded. What I want to encourage you to do, right 

now there is so much federal money available in the 21st Century Grant programs and in 

other programs, and all of this legislation, and all of this money goes in one direction, it 

goes to the public school system. Now, there's nothing wrong in funding the public 

school system. They're simply getting the funding. They're wonderful people who are 

doing a great job, but what I believe we must do is open up these dollars for private and 

nonprofit organizations so that they can come into our community base, that are run by 

parents, that work directly with children in every ethnic community and discern what 

works.

 Clearly we have the data of what works in this community and a couple of other, 

a couple of other schools, and it works right now. Now, we're not the only organization 

that does this. There are a lot of private organizations, nonprofit organizations that do
24

this. But we've got to break the strong hold of public education going in one direction.

We've got to experiment. We've got to empower the people in these rooms who are 

parents create grassroots organizations like ourselves that are actually solving the 

problem right now. You've got the solution. It will be wonderful if we can get some 

federal dollars to help us. But I assure you we will continue to succeed irrespective of 

whether or not we get the funding. 

Chairman Castle. What works best in your program? 

Mr. Mile. The after school program. 

Chairman Castle. If you had to pick one, one thing that you think is most helpful to 

these kids. Is it the after school program? 

Mr. Mile. I think so. And the reason I say that is because teachers and cultures come up 

against each other. You've got a public school system that's working very, very hard, but 

you've got a public school system that's tied down by political considerations, 

bureaucratic rules, much of which come from the federal government, about the kinds of 

forms and kind of things that teachers have to do all day. They have less and less time to 

teach. Principals have less and less time to lead because of the non-academic things that 

are imposed on them. The reason we've been so successful is that we are only 

accountable to our parents. We're only accountable to our parents and our test results, so 

that when we go in there and we can work with kids where we have no paperwork to do, 

where we have strong discipline, strong moral values, and enormous support of the 

religious community, and when you have that freedom to do just what has to be done and 

shape what you're doing to the child, rather than political considerations, rather than 

bureaucratic forms and doing those things, when you get your freedom to choose and to 

teach with principles and the freedom to lead, things happen. And, you know, I implore 

you if you consider doing it, open it up, open up the billion dollars of federal funds in the 

21st Century Learning Program and other programs of private organizations, nonprofit 

organizations that have succeeded. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you. Mr. Murray, would you like to say something? Let me 

say something first. The 21st Century Learning Program, so everyone knows what you're 

talking about, are the after school programs that are funded by the federal government. 

It's gone in five years from about $800,000 in appropriations, so I think that's an eight 

hundred million dollars appropriation. And they'd be increased this year. Probably some 

of your schools are now involved in it recently, but it basically has happened in the 

schools, generally run by the schools. I think in response to the issue of privatenonprofit, I'm not sure, and we're looking at more and more state based type initiatives. 

We're looking at more and more things in that area, but I imagine that relates to programs 

in the public schools. I mean, that is, that is the separation point that legislation we need 

may or may not be able to get done. Mr. Persley. 

Mr. Persley. I just want to comment briefly because in Washington, D.C., we have the 

First Learning Centers. We also have great programs, and programming. The Youth 

Opportunity Grant, which is actually in the Department of Labor that we use back in 

Richmond. And we use community-based organizations to do most of that work. We 

have partnered with six community-based organizations to do our tutoring. We also have 
25

a lot of recreational programs and culture activities. So there are programs out there that 

federal dollars sponsor and that work for us to get those dollars to all states that they can 

use to get to, to get the community based organizations and nonprofits to help develop 

their systems and better serve our people. 

Chairman Castle. Mr. Greene. 

Mr. Greene. Yeah. I'd like to make a comment for the record. I do not wish for my zest 

for teaching kids to read to be misconstrued as me being against extracurricular activities. 

Two blocks from here I teach inner city kids, to all the kids who live in this area. As 

noted, I've been a football coach. I went to school on a football scholarship. I practically 

lived in the recreation department when I was not at home. So I, when I'm pushing 

reading, I'm not trying to exclude anything. Music, I directed, implemented, and drove in 

three or four cars in the ground with a gospel-singing group of young kids from the 6th 

grade all the way through high school. So when I'm pushing reading, I'm not excluding 

anything. I'm not putting anybody out. I just think that from my perception that's the 

most important thing that I can do today. I can start tonight to do, to affect everything 

that I need to; I want to do put it that way. 

Mr. Fletcher. Let me just make one comment. What we're trying to do is give back 

more local flexibility in how the money is spent locally. As the chairman's mentioned, 

probably with the public school systems where it's at, the flexibility is going to be.

Personally, I feel like a community coming together looking at the problems to put the 

child first, and not put any one particular system or anything above the well being of that 

child. And this community, like all communities across the country, must come together 

and say let's use all the valuable resources and let's use what works. And, Leonard, I 

appreciate your bringing this approach and information. Politically some things are very 

difficult, but I do think the more local control, the more focus we can get on the child 

locally, the better chance we have of really closing this gap, not just for a few students, 

but really closing it for anyone, and it may very well involve using programs like you say 

at the local level. I think those ought to be open and certainly very viable options for the 

local community to engage in. 

Ms. Muhammad. Good morning. I'm Patricia Devine Muhammad, and I'm also in the 

Minority Advisory Committee with Congressman Fletcher, and I want to thank him, on 

behalf of the subcommittee here, and I think he's done a great job. But I remember at one 

of the meetings Congressman Fletcher had asked after much frustration, I guess, that 

under segregation, did the black community have as much problem with education as we 

seem to have today, and I thought it was a profound question. And the answers that 

people gave were that, no, we really didn't have a problem with character education or 

reading even though they were second-hand books and second-hand materials. And I 

think the answer that was presented was because the African-American community had 

invested interest in educating its own because if it's educating its own students then that's 

how a community can move ahead. Whereas they in our country, and I think it's a 

national problem that this, being a national, a federal Committee and taking this back to 

the President, that this country can prosper. It can flourish. People can make great 

money on the stock market and still have poorly educated people. And that's something 

to think about. We're talking about having this great country, but our people are not 

educated. I remember, you know, teachers talking about the nation at risk. I think that 
26

was under the Reagan Administration. Now, something, something is going to happen to 

this country because of our low education status. 

 But, because of flourishing information technology that has not happened yet. So 

if we are a nation at risk, and I think we are, because soon if our economy goes down and 

other things happen, and there are countries that are educating their people, that are 

putting money into making sure that their children are healthy and active, they're going to 

start moving up, and we're going to start saying that this is definitely a nation at risk. But 

we need to understand that our country, even though we seem to have all of our SUVs 

and nice homes and real estate market is booming, we do not have a hold on this country.

We are a nation at risk. And sooner or later it's going to catch up with us. Thank you. 

Mr. Fletcher. Patricia, thank you. We appreciate your service. One of things, the group 

has gotten out of this, is the mention of broad questions of how things were done in the 

past. Probably at one point there's a lot more flexibility and local control in some of 

those schools, and that's the issue. I think we've made great strides on equalizing the 

funding over the years. It's just very disappointing to me that in all utilization funding, 

for example, we spend probably twice as much per student in our lowest school here in 

Lexington as we do at a school that has the best performance. So it's more than just 

equalizing the money. It's allowing the flexibility and control, and some folks say, 

directly say, "Let's focus on the child and not be bound by a system that says we can't 

take this student out, for example, and teach them." So I appreciate your input. And you 

work with after school programs and do a very good job in helping a lot of minority 

students here right in this area. Thank you. 

Chairman Castle. You raised a very complex question. I was going to let this go, but 

you're right. I don't think culturally in this country we have really taught people the 

importance of education. I'm talking television news or whatever. The difference in their 

income and their lives they become uneducated. And it doesn't mean you have to get a 

Ph.D. Or a master's degree from college, just to be able to read, I mean, being able to do 

basic functions because it's going to help you tremendously over your opportunities in 

life. I see nothing but quality in your life and enjoyment of your life. We absolutely 

have to do this, and we are a nation at risk. I'd like to think sometimes we're a part from a 

nation at risk, but we're not. We are a nation at risk. I mean, essentially you have some 

state like California, the next population that's already there is going to be Hispanic, for 

example. It's going to happen in Texas, as well. In Delaware, we have forty-two 

languages spoken in our state. Just in little Delaware we have that problem. We have 

huge areas we need to overcome in terms of educational. Part of it is getting all of us 

motivated to make sure that people understand the importance of education. Mr. 

Persley's been to Washington, D.C. Most of us know him pretty well, and this is a very 

difficult social, cultural problem in Washington, D.C., where the public wouldn't even 

begin to educate a young person. We need to work on this. It's character education; part 

of it is character at home. 

 It is developing kids at young age and affording them opportunities and getting 

them, showing them a path. There are a lot of blockages for them now. The job we have 

ahead of us, all of us here in this room, and all of us in Kentucky is just absolutely huge.

Frankly, I think we, as members of Congress need to focus on it every single day if we 

can with the help of all of you to try to do something about it. It's complex. There are 
27

ways to get the answers to this. There's a myriad of answers out there, to this. Each 

individual is different. We need to understand that. We need to work on it. By God, in 

this country we do need to work on it. 

Mr. Stratton. Good morning, Congressmen. My name is Mike Stratton. I'm a principal 

in Richmond, Kentucky. And I'm glad to have you congressmen here. And I hope you 

all can stay since Derby is running, so spend a little money here in Kentucky. Appreciate 

you being here. Ms. Farris' son is one of my students so I want to make sure she's on the 

job here while you all were here. But, seriously, a couple of months ago, I was on the 

internet and we were going to see what President Bush had to say and what his policies in 

terms of education would be. A couple of statements that were said I have here and I 

would like to expand on just a bit. Number one, my brother here from Martin Luther 

King, I appreciate what he had to say about character education. I've been in this 

business twenty-six years and the past four in elementary, the rest of it secondary and 

middle, and I wish twenty-six years ago they told me to stay and tell me about elementary 

school to stay there. But somewhere along the way kids change, and I think character 

education, and you have a government that really stress education; number one, it's not a 

white thing. It's not a black thing. It's not a Spanish thing. It's not a Latino thing. It's the 

right thing regardless of color or where you're from and everything. And I think that's 

where we're going away from that, and I'm glad to see we're addressing character 

education as being a top priority because we got to live together, we get along together, 

and we can do things the right way. Number two; I appreciate Mr. Greene. 

 I sort of came up maybe the same way as the coach, and I can see where reading 

is very important. In my school we are seeking out testing, like most of the educators 

that are here, we've been testing for the past week. We're going to continue in our 

character testing, but I want to carry this a little bit further where we test ourselves in 

Kentucky across this great country, and not only encourage testing, but I'd like to see a 

pretest where a kid goes into the classroom and after a year of being there, posttest to see 

what they've learned, maybe we can find out exactly how much we're doing in education 

instead of some of the other testing that we're spending great amounts of money for. 

Reading is important. Our school went to the phonics and I think phonics is very 

important for a kid learning how to read before they're in the 3rd grade, so I see where 

we're looking at 3rd grade. And after that I can see where we need to look at reading and 

testing reading 3rd graders because after that I don't know really how to catch up, 

Congressman Fletcher, after the 3rd grade. I appreciate the panel's input. I appreciate the 

Congressman giving us the time to voice our questions concerning education. I thank 

you very much for coming, and I hope in this great state of Kentucky we can move 

forward in education in the right direction. Thank you guys for coming and being with 

us.

Mr. Fletcher. Thank you, Mr. Stratton, and I appreciate your work. You know, several 

folks have mentioned to me that by the 3rd grade we're behind, and I know Mr. Greene 

has mentioned the problem starts right out of the womb or the work needs to begin right 

there especially on literacy, education, character education, as well. One of the things 

that has really gotten my attention down at the elementary school, Russell Elementary 

School here, and speaking to folks, and talked about scores of the early childhood 

development that's given to children as they come in, and I was shocked that the four and 

five year olds particularly that couldn't recognize if you asked them to point to their nose 
28

or ears or eyes, but it still, it brought to me the importance of the home life. Nothing can 

replace the parents and that sort of thing, but right now students spend more time with 

teachers than they do parents. And I think it is clear that we must do something in this 

country to stop the cycle that we have; children raising children who haven't found the 

skills in themselves to be able to provide that child the early nurturing, and it is very 

difficult, but I think that's why we have Early Start and the programs that were initially, 

that are very, very important; that we catch those children early. If they come in and 

aren't able to do the very basic things that you would expect your children to do at a very 

young age, the age of one or two, then we really need to have some very focused 

intervention programs at that time, catch them pretty early. Thank you. 

Chairman Castle. Take a look at the clock and it's 11:46. We want to take a couple 

more questions if we can. We don't really have any closing statements here so we're 

going to try to fit in as much we can. We will limit our comments and try to hear from 

you because several people may have comments. 

Ms. Raines. I'm Shirley Raines. I'm Dean of the College Education Cabinet, and thank 

you for coming here and for being at Booker T. Washington. I'm going to pick up on 

something that Mr. Greene said. Mr. Greene helps us not only because he is conscious of 

our community, but also he walks the walk and talks the talk in regards of what he has to 

say. I know the other three do, as well. I want to ask you a question about teachers.

We're doing a lot to improve the quality of teacher education, but we're facing a 

tremendous shortage in this nation of teachers. And some of our best teachers, some that 

you mentioned, Dr. Fletcher, as ions of excellence, are about to float off into retirement 

and we desperately need help at, with the federal government helping our states to recruit 

more minority teachers, but also to recruit teachers because we're concerned about filling 

the ranks. We're trying to do a better job of teacher education. We have a long way to 

go, as well, because teaching has changed, schools have changed, society has changed, 

and we have to replace those who are leaving. I'm a former Head Start teacher, so I have 

the passion and the values of parent involvement and all of those kinds of things that I 

think our teaching course shares, but we do need to be sure to find ways to replace them.

What do you and this Committee and the President have planned to help us? 

Mr. Fletcher. I'm going to let the chairman answer. Mr. Chairman, I'll let you answer 

that.

Chairman Castle. It's a very interesting question. First of all, pleased I'm very pleased 

with your question. The best speaker on this I've heard from the, in the last few months 

was a fellow named Bernie Lee, who is from Chicago. He works for the Chicago School 

District, and that's a big city. And this guy is a non-educator who says we need to hustle, 

and basically they're working on everything. They're working on a student to teacher 

program with help from the federal government. He's working on bringing in bright 

people for three or four years, he says, "I don't care if these teachers don't like me." He 

says, "If I can get three or four years, I'm a really bright person. That's good as far as I'm 

concerned." They're trying to get all kinds of alternative features into the system in 

Chicago percentage-wise. I mean, nobody quoted or misstated anything, but he has a 

high percentage of the new teachers who are coming in alternative programs. So that, 

that has worked extremely well. We, in this legislation, and I don't have all the details 

here, but I think you'll be pleased with some of the professional development. We're 
29

trying to make sure that, you know, teachers prepare the subject matter in which they're 

willing to teach for starters. That if they have to go back and learn it, we'll give them the 

opportunity to go back and be able to learn it. That we are giving more flexibility to 

teachers in terms of what they can do in their professional development to keep them 

interested in their jobs. If you think that's important, you're absolutely right. It's almost a 

crisis level. It's for a whole variety of reasons to teach. And this is a shared problem that 

we all have to face. I'd just like to ask you one quick question. Do you have programs 

for bringing in people who want to teach who have not gone through a regular 

educational program? 

Ms. Raines. Yes. 

Chairman Castle. Thank you. She said yes. 

Mr. Fletcher. Let me say, you know, as we look at what a student's interest is; it's very 

clear. I know folks don't go into teaching for the money. That's obviously the pay that's 

out there. Well, it is a problem. We're going to have to address it. How much emphasis 

do we put on it until we educate our children? We can go over to the commercial 

electrical contractor who graduated from high school, he had a good education, he can 

read, after just a short period of time he's making $60,000 a year. You start teaching after 

four years and you have a tremendous responsibility of teaching these young children and 

you make $30,000 a year. That kind of gives you an idea, where we put our focus and 

our emphasis. That's going to take, I think, a lot to change from the local community, 

and I think funding and getting more resources now. Teachers, personally, I think have 

lost a great deal of their professionalism, since the same thing happened among 

physicians by the way, and we need somehow to restore that. I just came back from a 

Family Literacy Conference in Dallas a few weeks ago, and one of the most important 

things in education is the child having a well-qualified teacher in the classroom. That's 

very important. Thank you. 

Mr. Isakson. I wanted to thank you very much for being here. It's a credit to yourself 

and the University of Kentucky that the Dean of College and Education would be here 

because the College of Education plays a huge role in the supply, and it is inevitable and 

unfortunate that all alternative certification and to, to teachers and all these things we're 

dealing with right now, even have to be there. We wish we had enough of you in the 

system, but we don't. In specific answer to your question, when President Clinton 

proposed his 100,000 Teacher Program, which was controversial for a lot of reasons, but 

the reality after you get in the classroom, we wanted 100,000 certified teachers to be 

hired, and one of the things Congress did, under Bill Whitley and Mike Castle and Ernie 

Fletcher which was really great, was giving flexibility for the states to use that money to, 

for professional development of existing teachers to get them certified in the field, 

because not only did we not have enough teachers, of the ones we have, we don't have 

enough of them to raise a certified teacher program. So that flexibility gave school 

systems a great, great opportunity. But I want to say one other thing that relates to Mr. 

Murray. We didn't actually introduce Georgia, the three years that I chaired the Board of 

Education, to find out why we were losing so many teachers, and it was in the first years 

years. That's where the big crisis is. 
30

And income is number 7. You know, it was the fact, as Ernie said, it wasn't the 

factor, because people went into it out of the love. As Mike has said, women who 

predominate the teaching profession used to not have a lot of alternatives. Now they 

have tons of alternatives, but still people who do teach out of passion. Our biggest 

problem, and one of the things we should talk about, because one of those things you got 

to do is change minds and hearts. Number one was parents, I mean, teachers felt like it 

was for the parents. You know, that they didn't have the type of support they needed to 

do what they needed to do in the classroom, and that was the number one factor. And the 

last thing I wanted to say is this: In the consequences of President Bush's program for 

failing schools is money and resources a Title 1 school is determined to be failing after its 

first year, there's money for intervention, professional development, character and I 

mean, charter school programs, things of that nature, but there is money for resources 

constantly.

 At the end of the year, too, there's more money, but the leadership of this school 

ultimately makes a tremendous amount of difference whether the teachers stay, too. And 

we have a principal and we have a couple of principles here. I want to say that one of the 

keys, I think we got to take more and more focus on this, is the accountability at the 

administrative level to support the teacher in the classroom, and that's the principal of the 

teacher. That's a huge part of the retention factor. If we can retain more than we hire 

today and not be this three out of the four, after the third year, then we'll solve a lot of our 

teacher quantity problems. Thank you. 

Chairman Castle. We're going to take one more question, but before we do that, I'd just 

like to make one more comment. But I want somebody to come out and paint a positive 

picture about teaching, I think higher than that, the people running down the teaching 

profession somewhat. It would be a great policy. But, secondly, I don't think this is any 

kind of a soft or derogatory sentence, you know, I took my first two-week vacation in 

thirty-seven years last year. The whole idea was being be able to do something different. 

I'm sorry. Excuse me. Camp counselor many, many years ago, probably the best job I 

ever had, and I can't do that now because these guys keep me tied up in Congress the 

whole time. And there are many benefits of teaching that we don't encourage, show our 

hardship, their confidence. I think that's sound. Teaching is a great job. You know, it's 

rewarding. We need somebody to carry that bat out there, and say, "This is a great job."

One final question. 

Mr. Sams. My name is David Sams. I've worked since I was raised here in Lexington, 

and I have a 5th grade education with probably equivalent to a 6th grade reading 

education because I had a very slow start. And it was the teacher that made a difference 

in my life because I had the disadvantage that you talked about. And it was a teacher 

whose name was Mac. I'll never forget her name because she took the time to tutor me in 

that subject, and there are teachers out there that care. And, you know, when I broke my 

leg at work I had the time to go and sit in the classroom with my, with my child. I had 

seen so much of the same thing that was happening to me that's going on still today. The 

slow learners are getting pushed to the side because there are not enough teachers in the 

room. These teachers need help. They need more on-hand one-on-one. They're asking 

the teachers to do way too much. Yes, they can teach the ones that are above average, 

and they can go on and be great people, but the ones that are down at the bottom is going 

to hold jobs like me. They're going to do the things that other people don't want to do. 
31

I'm happy to have a job, happy to be part of this society, but there's one thing that I'm 

dissatisfied with is not having enough help in classrooms of these teachers. They failed 

me. I'm not about to let them fail my kids from the education that we need. So we need 

to put more people in the classroom. One-on-one is what's going to close the gap. That's 

what she did for me. Thank you. 

Chairman Castle. I think that's our closing statement. It's more than we can say. Let 

me thank all of you very, very much for being here today. We particularly thank the 

panel who's given their time to prepare to be here today; Mr. Murray, Mr. Persley, Mr. 

Ibarra, Mr. Greene. Let's give them a hand. 

Mr. Fletcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it very much. This is one of five 

hearings that have been done across the country outside Washington, D.C. We've done a 

number within the capital in the hearing room or the committee room, but I want to thank 

the chairman for making the effort to come down. This is the last trip before we actually 

begin to do the final work on the bill on the House side, so it's a very important hearing. 

And, again, I want to thank you for bringing the subcommittee here and for your 

continued faithful interest in education and our students across this nation. And, 

Congressman Isakson, thank you also for making the sacrifice for coming here when, as 

many of you know, in public service there's a lot of times you're not with your family and 

be willing to sacrifice to come to another district. Thank you very much and please give 

them a round of applause. I want to thank Ann Farris for opening up the school of 

Booker T. Washington here for your hospitality. Many of you that come out today we've 

got a tremendous, a wealth of experience. I know everyone didn't get to have some input, 

but please write us. And, again, I want to thank the panel and all of you. And I'm very 

encouraged with this new bill, new approach that we're really beginning to focus, and I 

know that a lot of you worked a long time in the federal level to give you the power that 

you need to really make sure folks like David have the kind of opportunities that they 

deserve. Thanks and we appreciate it. 

Chairman Castle. The hearing stands adjourned. 

 Whereupon, the subcommittee was adjourned. 
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Table of Indexes 

Chairman Castle, 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 17, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 28, 29, 

30, 31 

Mr. Fletcher, 2, 3, 5, 15, 17, 21, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 31 

Mr. Greene, 6, 14, 16, 17, 18, 25 

Mr. Ibarra, 8, 15, 16, 18 

Mr. Isakson, 5, 17, 18, 19, 22, 29 

Mr. Mile, 23, 24 

Mr. Murray, 11, 14, 17, 19 

Mr. Persley, 9, 15, 16, 24 

Mr. Sams, 30 

Mr. Stratton, 27 

Ms. Barrot, 20 

Ms. Muhammad, 25 

Ms. Raines, 28, 29 

Ms. Shafer, 22