U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

73–028 PS WASHINGTON : 2001

S. HRG. 107–94

EMPLOYMENT NEEDS OF AMISH

YOUTH

HEARING

BEFORE A

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE

COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

SPECIAL HEARING

MAY 3, 2001—WASHINGTON, DC

Printed for the use of the Committee on Appropriations

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate

For sale by the U.S. Government Printing Office

Superintendent of Documents, Congressional Sales Office, Washington, DC 20402
(II)

COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS

TED STEVENS, Alaska, Chairman

THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi

ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania

PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico

CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Missouri

MITCH MCCONNELL, Kentucky

CONRAD BURNS, Montana

RICHARD C. SHELBY, Alabama

JUDD GREGG, New Hampshire

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah

BEN NIGHTHORSE CAMPBELL, Colorado

LARRY CRAIG, Idaho

KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, Texas

MIKE DEWINE, Ohio

ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia

DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii

ERNEST F. HOLLINGS, South Carolina

PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont

TOM HARKIN, Iowa

BARBARA A. MIKULSKI, Maryland

HARRY REID, Nevada

HERB KOHL, Wisconsin

PATTY MURRAY, Washington

BYRON L. DORGAN, North Dakota

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California

RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois

TIM JOHNSON, South Dakota

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana

STEVEN J. CORTESE, Staff Director

LISA SUTHERLAND, Deputy Staff Director

JAMES H. ENGLISH, Minority Staff Director

SUBCOMMITTEE ON DEPARTMENTS OF LABOR, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, AND

EDUCATION, AND RELATED AGENCIES

ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman

THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi

JUDD GREGG, New Hampshire

LARRY CRAIG, Idaho

KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, Texas

TED STEVENS, Alaska

MIKE DEWINE, Ohio

TOM HARKIN, Iowa

ERNEST F. HOLLINGS, South Carolina

DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii

HARRY REID, Nevada

HERB KOHL, Wisconsin

PATTY MURRAY, Washington

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana

ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia

(Ex officio)

Professional Staff

BETTILOU TAYLOR

MARY DIETRICH

JIM SOURWINE

ELLEN MURRAY (Minority)

Administrative Support

CORREY DIVINEY

CAROLE GEAGLEY (Minority)
(III)

CONTENTS

Page

Opening statement of Senator Arlen Specter ........................................................ 1

Statement of Hon. Joseph Pitts, U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania ......... 2

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 4

Statement of Hon. Mark Souder, U.S. Representative from Indiana .................. 5

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 7

Statement of Thomas M. Markey, Acting Administrator, Wage and Hour

Division, Employment Standards Administration, U.S. Department of

Labor ..................................................................................................................... 10

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 12

Statement of Christ Blank, chairman, Old Order Amish Steering Committee,

Kinzers, PA ........................................................................................................... 15

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 17

Statement of William Burkholder, owner, C.B. Hardwood Lumber Co.,

Centerville, PA ..................................................................................................... 18

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 20

Statement of Herman Bontrager, Secretary/Treasurer, National Committee

for Amish Religious Freedom .............................................................................. 20

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 22

Statement of Noah Byler ......................................................................................... 27

Statement of John Byler ......................................................................................... 28

(1)

EMPLOYMENT NEEDS OF AMISH YOUTH

THURSDAY, MAY 3, 2001

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON LABOR, HEALTH AND HUMAN

SERVICES, AND EDUCATION, AND RELATED AGENCIES,

COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS,

Washington, DC.

The subcommittee met at 9:30 a.m., in room SH–216, Hart Senate Office Building, Hon. Arlen Specter (chairman) presiding.

Present: Senator Specter.

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ARLEN SPECTER

Senator SPECTER. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. The

hearing of the Appropriations Subcommittee on Labor, Health and

Human Services, and Education will now proceed with the clock

striking 9:30.

At the outset, we welcome representatives from the Amish who

are here from not only Pennsylvania, but New York and Ohio. We

welcome the distinguished Congressman Joe Pitts, who will be

joined in a few minutes by Congressman Mark Souder from Indiana.

Today’s hearing involves legislation which has twice passed the

House of Representatives, after the introduction by and support of

Congressman Pitts, and similar legislation which has been introduced in the Senate by this Senator to amend the Fair Labor

Standards Act to permit Amish youth, ages 14 to 18, to work under

adult supervision in sawmills.

This issue arises because Department of Labor regulations ban

the employment of minors from working in sawmill operations.

This poses a problem for Amish youth who finish their formal education in the eighth grade and have very few employment opportunities. The employment in the sawmills with their families provides

an opportunity for them to continue their instruction in the workplace under adult supervision with continuing guidance.

There has been opposition raised on constitutional grounds that

legislation might confer benefits only to youths who are members

of a religious sect, or division thereof, whose established teachings

do not permit formal education beyond the eighth grade and that

by conferring the benefit of working in a sawmill only to adherence

of certain religions, the Department of Justice has contended that

the bill appears to impermissibly favor religion to irreligion. My

own view is that it is possible to have legislation which does not

run afoul of the Constitution, and we have proposed just that.
2

The Department of Labor, under the Clinton administration, opposed both Congressman Pitt’s bill and my bill, questioning whether current regulations afford Amish minors equal protection under

the laws and raised some questions about safety. I raised this issue

yesterday with Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao who appears more

flexible than her predecessors, and she has committed herself to

studying the issue. It is my view that unless we can get administrative relief from the Department of Labor, legislation is entirely

appropriate, and we are convening today’s hearings to pursue just

that matter.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH PITTS, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM

PENNSYLVANIA

Senator SPECTER. It is a pleasure to welcome my colleague from

Pennsylvania’s 16th congressional district encompassing Lancaster

and Chester Counties. Congressman Joseph Pitts is a third term

Congressman holding a bachelor’s degree from Ashbury College, a

Captain in the Air Force, a school teacher, a small business owner.

He has had a distinguished record in the U.S. House of Representatives, serving on the Energy and Commerce Committee and on the

International Relations Committee.

Congressman Pitts, it is a pleasure to welcome you here and we

look forward to your testimony. Our general rule is to turn the

lights on at 5 minutes, but not for Congressmen.

Mr. PITTS. Thank you, Senator. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Today your subcommittee is addressing an issue very important

to the Amish community who reside in over 20 States in this country. I want to thank you for holding this important hearing.

People around the world know of the Old Order Amish as a people who till their land and direct their lives with faith, simplicity,

and discipline. Traditionally Amish communities are centered

around the family farm which requires input from the whole family. While caring for crops and animals, Amish parents show their

children how to make a living without exposure to outside influences that contradict their beliefs.

However, development pressures and the soaring price of farmland have forced the Amish to look for alternatives to farming, and

now Amish can be found in small businesses making raw lumber,

clocks, wagons, cabinetry, quilts, and many other things.

Therefore, as they did on the family farm, the Amish now wish

to have their youth work with them in these vocational settings.

Typically the youth will learn a trade after the completion of Amish

school, which is equivalent to an eighth grade education.

The Amish view this work as part of their schooling since they

often accompany a parent to the workplace, and they call this

learning by doing.

Unfortunately, these small Amish-owned businesses have received costly fines from the Department of Labor for having their

young adults work alongside their fathers and uncles, even in family businesses.

Mr. Chairman, recently an Amish businessman in my congressional district was fined $8,000 for having his own child in the

front office of his business. This teenager was simply learning to
3

use the cash register alongside her father. She was far from harm’s

way.

These actions by the Department of Labor have severely threatened the lifestyle and religion of this respected and humble community.

The Amish expect diligence, responsibility, and respect from

their youth. They do not contribute to the social ills of our society,

and they do not accept any assistance from Government programs.

Our Government should not interfere with this humble community.

Several of my colleagues, along with our Amish constituents, met

with Department of Labor officials several times over the past 3 to

4 years to find a solution to this problem. Unfortunately, we received nothing but negative responses from the Department of

Labor. I am hopeful that with a new administration in the White

House, we will receive a more positive response this year.

The Amish have a very unique situation. They complete their formal schooling at the end of eighth grade. They do not have the benefit of shop or vo-tech which my son and our youth have in high

school. But they want their young people to learn a work ethic and

a trade.

We have a responsibility to evaluate the Amish in that light, and

that is why I, along with numerous other members, last Congress

introduced H.R. 221, legislation to address the employment needs

of the Amish youth.

H.R. 221 of the 106th Congress passed under suspension on

March 3, 1999. The same bill, H.R. 4257, passed under suspension

in the 105th Congress on September 28, 1998. It has bipartisan

support in the House. However, as you know, this legislation has

not moved in the Senate.

This narrow legislation will only allow young adults of the Amish

faith to accompany a parent or a relative to work in places of business where machinery is used to process wood products. Our bill

requires that the young adult have adult supervision. It prohibits

them from operating the machinery. It provides numerous safety

protections for these individuals.

Mr. Chairman, many communities like Lancaster County, PA, of

my district, greatly appreciate the heritage and work ethic of the

Amish, and we wish to keep them as a part of our communities.

However, if the Amish continue to be attacked by the Federal or

State governments, they will be driven out of our communities.

Their strong heritage will be undermined by governmental interference.

PREPARED STATEMENT

So, I urge the Senate to protect the Amish heritage. Mr. Chairman, I am very grateful for your assistance and for this hearing,

and I am hopeful that we can work together to find a solution to

this problem.

Thank you for inviting me to testify at the hearing.

[The statement follows:]
4

PREPARED STATEMENT OF REP. JOE PITTS

Mr. Chairman, today your subcommittee is addressing an issue important to the

Amish community who reside in over 20 states in this country. I thank you for holding this important hearing.

People around the world know of the Old Order Amish as a people who till their

land and direct their lives with faith, simplicity and discipline.

Traditionally, Amish communities are centered around the family farm, which requires input from the whole family. While caring for crops and animals, Amish parents show their children how to make a living without exposure to outside influences that contradict their beliefs.

However, increasing development pressures, and the soaring price of farmland,

have forced the Amish to look for alternatives to farming. Now Amish can be found

in small businesses making raw lumber, clocks, wagons, cabinetry, and quilts.

Therefore, as they did on the family farm, the Amish now wish to have their

youth work with them in these vocational settings. Typically, the youth will learn

a trade after the completion of Amish school, or eighth grade.

The Amish view this work as part of their schooling; since they often accompany

a parent to the workplace.

They call this ‘‘learning by doing.’’

Unfortunately, these small, Amish-owned businesses have received costly fines

from the Department of Labor for having their young adults work alongside their

fathers and uncles, even in family businesses.

Mr. Chairman, recently an Amish businessman in my congressional district was

fined eight thousand dollars for having his own child in the front office of his business. This teenager was simply learning to use the cash register alongside her father. She was far from harm’s way.

These actions by the Department of Labor have severely threatened the lifestyle

and religion of this respected and humble community.

The Amish expect diligence, responsibility, and respect from their youth. They do

not contribute to the social ills of our society, and they do not accept any assistance

from government programs.

Our government should not interfere with this humble community.

Several of my colleagues, along with our Amish constituents, met with Department of Labor officials several times over the past two years to find a solution to

this problem.

Unfortunately, we received nothing but negative responses from the Department

of Labor. I am hopeful that, with a new Administration in the White House, we will

receive a more positive response this year.

The Amish have a very unique situation. They complete their formal schooling at

the end of eighth grade. They do not have the benefit of ‘‘shop’’ and vo-tech our

youth have in high school.

We have a responsibility to evaluate the Amish in that light.

That is why I, along with numerous other members, last Congress introduced

H.R. 221, legislation to address the employment needs of Amish youth.

H.R. 221 of the 106th Congress passed under suspension on March 3, 1999. The

same bill, H.R. 4257, passed under suspension in the 105th Congress on September

28, 1998. It has bipartisan support in the House. However, as you know, this legislation has not moved in the Senate.

This narrow legislation will only allow young adults of the Amish faith to accompany a parent or relative to work in places of businesses where machinery is used

to process wood products. My legislation requires that the young adult have adult

supervision, it prohibits them from operating machinery, and it provides numerous

safety protections for these individuals.

Mr. Chairman, many communities, like Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, of my

district, greatly appreciate the heritage and work ethic of the Amish, and we wish

to keep them as a part of our communities.

However, if the Amish continue to be attacked by the State and Federal government, they will be driven out of our communities.

Their strong heritage will be undermined by governmental interference.

I urge the Senate to protect the Amish heritage.

Mr. Chairman, I am hopeful we can work together to find a solution to this problem.

Thank you for inviting me to this hearing.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you very much, Congressman Pitts.
5

STATEMENT OF HON. MARK SOUDER, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM INDIANA

Senator SPECTER. We now turn to Congressman Mark Souder

who is in his fourth term, representing Indiana’s 4th district. He

is chairman of the Government Reform Subcommittee on Criminal

Justice, Drug Policy and Human Resources, and also serves on the

House Committee on Education and the Workforce, as well as the

Natural Resources Committee. Congressman Souder holds a bachelor’s degree from Indiana University at Fort Wayne and an M.B.A.

from the University of Notre Dame. Welcome, Congressman

Souder, and we look forward to your testimony.

Mr. SOUDER. Thank you very much. I apologize for being late.

The chairman called an emergency meeting on the education bill

that we are marking up.

Senator SPECTER. Congressman Souder, I know how busy you

are in the House. On a Thursday, it is tough to be every place. We

are grateful to you for being here. We proceeded in the interest of

time, and Congressman Pitts agreed, in your absence, as your de

facto agent. We are pleased to have you here.

Mr. SOUDER. Well, thank you. I am going to just make a few remarks, if you can put my written remarks in the record.

Senator SPECTER. Without objection, they will be made a part of

the record. We will be interested in hearing your extemporaneous

comments.

Mr. SOUDER. We share many things in Pennsylvania and Indiana, including my family’s heritage. There is a Soudersberg just

east of Lancaster and a Souderton just north of Philadelphia which

has a number of my distant relatives. My great, great grandpa was

Amish, left when he turned 18 and helped form the denomination

that I grew up in in Indiana. I represent the 2nd, 7th, and 10th

largest Amish settlements, the areas in LaGrange-Shipshewnna,

Grabill-Harlan, and Berne-Geneva area, and in redistricting. It

looks like I am going to get another of the areas in the Middlebury

and Nappanee areas.

All those settlements are Old Order, but I also even in the Old

Order settlements have a lot of topless Amish and non-topless

Amish. In other words, unlike the liberal Amish in Pennsylvania,

many of our Amish do not have tops on their buggies and cannot

marry the Amish who have tops on their buggies because we have

multiple different groups that are very conservative.

It is very hard for them to maintain their lifestyle. The lands in

Indiana, like in Pennsylvania and Ohio, which are the largest settlements, are increasingly under pressure from the growth of the

cities and suburbs. As the families subdivide and save up all their

earnings to get a little bit more farmland, they can barely exist.

Generally speaking, the first place they will turn is woodworking.

Often the woodworking will begin just in a barn while they are trying to farm in the morning and farm in the evening, but make a

little additional income during the day so they can maintain their

lifestyle. As the land gets more expensive, if they do not have that

option, we have had some go up into the rural parts of Michigan,

but they are being crowded there now too with tourism, or in other

parts of the United States. Some are having to flee overseas. And

a country of religious liberty, in fact, through good intentions in
6

many cases, has put a severe strain on those who will not follow

our way toward mechanization and automation of everything.

I think that the compromise that we have is reasonable, as I

have visited many of these facilities in my area. As Congressman

Pitts said, the kids leave school, and part of their extended family

is then to train them in a vocation, both in farming and in supplemental ways to earn an income in woodworking, generally speaking, making wood pallets or chests or other sorts of woodworking

items, furniture.

They do not and they are not allowed to actually work the machinery. The question is, particularly in these smaller sized facilities, but even a little bit larger, is it even practical to say that

when these kids are, in effect, doing vocational education, that they

cannot even be in the same building? Part of the reason they do

this is to have the extended family to work together.

I would also argue, as Congressman Pitts has said, that not only

do we not see the injuries, but that we see a group of people who

have a totally different lifestyle who are not exposed to other risks

that many of our children have. For example, they are not out racing cars.

Now, we have had, in my small hometown of 700, one case where

two Amish kids were drag racing buggies, but that puts a whole

different sense on the risk to them and the community. If they

overturn, they might skin a leg.

We also had one who violated their culture, and he was drinking

too much. He took his buggy up on a sidewalk and one lady got

scared.

But this is a whole different mentality than the rest of us are

used to. We do not see kids in the Amish community dying of drug

overdoses, of hot-rodding around and dying and doing other dangerous activities.

What we have is something that is essential to their being able

to continue, the woodworking. In effect, if we do not make these

changes, putting their culture at risk and their ability to function

in our society—the Amish position is not, as I often have heard,

that whoever is behind the wheel of an automobile is the devil. The

devil is behind the wheel. It is not that they cannot get a ride from

somebody else, and they can contract, as I am sure you have seen

in Pennsylvania.

The philosophy is that they should go slower because idle time

is the devil’s workshop. They believe in their culture that it is important that they work basically from sunup to sundown, and if

they do not have these activities to keep people busy and the extended family, that is how you get into evil. They are not against

the telephone per se. They are against the misuse of the telephone

and the gossip.

Now, some people have asked me, when we have debated this bill

in the Education and Workforce Committee, does this not give the

Amish a competitive advantage? I would say if you are willing to

go without a telephone, if you are willing to go without a car and

air conditioning and you want to join the Amish faith, it is not that

you get a competitive advantage, you give up so many other things.

They are scraping to barely make it.
7

PREPARED STATEMENT

We did a study years ago when I worked for Congressman Coats

and then Senator Coats. The areas that are the poorest in this

country have the least usage of food stamps and AFDC, 4 of those

top 10 counties are Amish. They do not need more money. All they

are asking to do is, as long as they are not bothering others and

as long as they are not endangering the children directly, please let

them exist in this society because not everybody—I admit I am

more of a materialist, but not everybody should have to be to be

able to exist in America.

I yield back my time.

[The statement follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF REP. MARK SOUDER

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee, I appreciate this opportunity to

testify today on the employment needs of Amish youth. I support the continued efforts of my colleagues from Pennsylvania, Mr. Specter and Mr. Pitts, to pursue a

remedy to a problem that jeopardizes the culture and religion of a segment of society that asks so little from government: the Amish.

I am not a passive observer on these issues. Not only do I represent the 3rd, 7th,

and 10th largest ‘‘old order’’ Amish settlements in the country (about 20,000 altogether), but I am a direct descendent of one of the first Amish settlers in Northeast

Indiana. In 1846, my great-great grandfather settled in the Hoosier state. While he

left the faith and culture around the turn of the century, I still have relatives who

continue to practice the Amish tradition. Furthermore, I was raised in a small

town—Grabill, Indiana—which is surrounded by Amish families. Growing up, I had

the unique opportunity to witness first-hand the traditions of this religious and cultural community.

I have been monitoring this issue very closely since it was first brought to my

attention by Congressman Pitts in early 1997. Because Amish practice includes instilling a work ethic early in life, Amish children end their formal schooling after

eighth grade and participate in state-approved apprenticeship programs in such

fields as wood working and farming. In recent years several lumber facilities in

Pennsylvania were heavily fined by the Department of Labor for employing Amish

teenagers, aged 14–17 years. Some of the cases in which the Labor Department assessed fines involved 14- and 15-year-olds who were working in a wood shop stacking objects and sweeping floors and were not in close proximity to machinery. Since

these events were brought to our attention, several of my colleagues and I have met

with Labor officials and Amish representatives from Pennsylvania to discuss this

issue. These meetings were called to discuss potential administrative remedies that

would permit Amish youth to work with heavy machinery for eight hours a day. Unfortunately, while the Department of Labor officials appeared at initial meetings to

be willing to find an administrative compromise, DoL officials later stated that administrative remedy was not possible based on current law.

This impasse is what brings us here today to consider these issues. Current law

must be clarified in order to continue the Amish tradition of providing teenagers

with a practical education—one that allows them to work alongside their relatives

and church family. In the 106th Congress, I was a cosponsor of H.R. 221, which

passed the House of Representatives by unanimous consent. This bill, introduced by

Congressman Pitts, would have allowed Amish teenagers to continue to do certain

jobs where machinery is used to process wood products. I believe this bill was a fair

compromise, representing nearly 18 months of negotiations with the Department of

Labor, and I will support this bill again when it is reintroduced by Congressman

Pitts in the House of Representatives this year.

Simply put, this bill would allow Amish teenagers aged 14 through 18 to continue

to work in woodworking facilities while including sound provisions to protect these

young workers. As a father of three children—two of whom are of working age—

I would never advocate for a bill that would place teenagers in an unduly unsafe

work environment. Safety provisions have been carefully considered and were included in this legislation. The bill would require that these young workers be supervised by adults who know and care about them. It also would prohibit Amish youth

from working with power-driven machinery and require these teenagers to be protected from flying debris, excessive noise, and sawdust.
8

At the same time, I believe this bill would preserve the traditional way of life of

the Amish, whose youth finish their formal education by the eighth grade and then

turn to a different style of religious, cultural, and ‘‘vocational’’ education. This bill

would protect a truly endangered religion and culture that cannot afford to be trampled on by federal micro-management. As many of us understand, the Amish way

of life is largely self-sufficient and agricultural. Such a lifestyle limits their interaction with the government.

Farming is becoming an increasingly difficult livelihood for many Amish—

unplowed land is difficult to find and increasingly expensive, and competing with

industrial farms that use heavy equipment is overwhelming to small Amish family

farms. Many Amish families have been forced into corollary industries like arts &

crafts, woodworking, home building, pallet building, and furniture making. Woodworking is a historic byproduct of agriculture that can be done as a local industry.

I believe the federal government should not unduly micro manage the Amish woodworking environment. To do so could force into extinction a culture and religion that

is fundamentally important to this country.

The Amish represent a unique segment of Americans that rely on self-sufficiency

rather than assistance from government. They are a peace-loving people who came

to America in the Anabaptist tradition to escape government regulation and persecution, so they could practice their religion and faith without government interference. Government bureaucracy threatens the Amish people’s very way of life. The

Amish are an important part of our heritage in northeast Indiana, and I believe we

must do what we can to protect their religious beliefs and practices. If we fail to

do so, we run the risk of forcing these hardworking, family-oriented people to leave

our communities in search of religious freedom elsewhere. Let’s not hinder their

ability to continue providing for themselves and their families, or to maintain their

cultural and religiously-based ‘‘learn by doing’’ apprenticeships.

Again, thank you for inviting me to testify on this issue today.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you very much, Congressman Souder

and Congressman Pitts. I think that the factors which you have

testified to really go to the issue of freedom of religion contrasted

with a violation of the Establishment Clause on any special considerations here.

I am intrigued, Congressman Souder, by your comment that a

practice of not marrying where the different families have different

style carriages, one with tops and one without tops. Will you amplify that?

Mr. SOUDER. Yes. In the community, the really strict Old Order,

there are a range of Amish. They even have what they call Black

Car Amish or King’s Amish. Those are really Mennonites.

For example, in the Lancaster area and going north from Lancaster, mostly you see the carriages and the tops on the buggies.

But in my hometown area and in Berne and Geneva and in southwest Indiana, they are not allowed to have anything over their

heads. They have added boxes in the back because kids in the

English community, as they would say, have rocked them. There

was a baby killed in one Amish buggy because kids were just

throwing stones at the buggy and a baby was killed. So, they have

allowed to put boxes on the back now, even in the Old Order.

But part of the philosophy even in the most conservative Amish

group——

Senator SPECTER. Boxes on the back?

Mr. SOUDER. In other words, in a buggy you will have a seat

where the people who are driving the buggy sit, but there is usually a storage area in the back. Now they have a box that comes

up over the back seat where small children——

Senator SPECTER. Head level to stop a lateral object from striking them in the head?
9

Mr. SOUDER. Yes, which is a pathetic commentary. I do not think

any of the deaths have been on purpose, but there have been a

number of them because it is fun for other kids who are out

partying or whatever to throw stones at the Amish because they

are different, much like other groups in our society. It is not just

kind of the traditional groups you hear. The Amish suffer this persecution all the time. They are laughed at because of the way they

dress. They are mocked because often they do not speak English

as much or they are not supposed to to outsiders.

But I asked one of my friends, I said, do you not get cold, or do

you just kind of get used to it by not having any top on your buggy?

He said, we have colds all winter long. The reason they sacrifice

with that is that part of the assumption is that if you do not have

a top on your buggy and it is cold out or hot out, you are going

to think before you go into town, before you go gallivanting around

and getting in trouble because there is some uncomfortability to it.

It is usually serious tasks. These are a serious people, and that is

the philosophy.

Senator SPECTER. How about the marriage issue?

Mr. SOUDER. The marriage issue outside their faith do you

mean?

Senator SPECTER. Well, no. You had made a comment, as I understood it——

Mr. SOUDER. Oh, they cannot marry. Much like a very conservative Old Order Amish who does not allow tops—and each bishop

gets to set the guidelines for their subgroup. They cannot marry

the more liberal Amish any more than, say, by traditional doctrine,

a Catholic could marry a Mennonite. In other words, it is almost

as rigid a differentiation in some of the subgroups of Amish.

Senator SPECTER. And the differentiation would apply even if the

distinction is having a top on the carriage.

Mr. SOUDER. Yes, although generally speaking, that is a sign

that—for example, in my Grabill-Harlan community, they cannot

have a pay phone on their porch, which in parts of Pennsylvania

you can have a pay phone on your porch. They can have one at a

corner, but the assumption is that the closer that phone gets to the

house, the more gossip you are going to do. Therefore, if you are

going to walk out into the cold and make a call, it is probably going

to be a serious call as opposed to just kind of gossiping about your

neighbors.

I used the topless because it is the most dramatic thing that outsiders can see, but it is usually a sign of this creeping liberalism,

as they would say, that would also put a phone on your porch. It

might even have a few colors. You can see in some parts of Pennsylvania, some Amish have a little bit of the brighter purple shirts

as opposed to the pure white or dark blue.

Senator SPECTER. Well, it certainly illustrates the views and convictions of the Amish which they are entitled to. They are very

strict, as they choose to be, about standards of conduct.

Well, it is a very interesting matter. My sense is that when it

is better understood in the Senate, we will have a little better luck

getting the legislation through.

As you gentlemen know, this is an appropriations subcommittee,

so we cannot mark up a bill and send it in, but I am turning in
10

my mind whether we might offer this as an amendment to the education bill or whether we may be able to persuade the authorizers

to have a markup and carry it out. So, we will give it very careful

attention.

Congressman Pitts?

Mr. PITTS. Mr. Chairman, my son, when he was 14, had shop

class in high school and they had 15 or 16 students in the shop

class. He made our home a beautiful table using a band saw and

power tools. There was one teacher in that shop class.

Now, we are not asking, with the legislation, that these young

people be even permitted to use the power tools, just be in the vicinity, sweep sawdust, glue lumber, fill out paperwork, learn the

work ethic of the trade, but not actually use the power tools. We

have even put common sense safety precautions in here, like barriers, and they are supervised by an adult and protected from wood

particles or other flying debris. So, we think that this is a very

good compromise.

Senator SPECTER. Well, thank you very much. That leads us very

naturally into the representative of the Department of Labor. We

thank you very much for coming, Congressman Pitts, Congressman

Souder, and good luck on your agenda today. I know you are very

busy in the House.

STATEMENT OF THOMAS M. MARKEY, ACTING ADMINISTRATOR, WAGE

AND HOUR DIVISION, EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

Senator SPECTER. Our next witness is Mr. Tom Markey, Acting

Administrator of the Wage and Hour Administration, Department

of Labor. Mr. Markey provides leadership in the administration

and the enforcement of a variety of labor standards that enhance

the welfare and protect the rights of the Nation’s workers. He

served as a 1st Lieutenant in the Army and holds a bachelor’s degree from Rutger’s University. Thank you for joining us, Mr. Markey.

In accordance with our practice, any statement will be made a

part of the record in full, and we will ask you to limit your comments to 5 minutes as our lights will record the timing. You may

proceed.

Mr. MARKEY. Mr. Chairman, thank you for the invitation to appear today to discuss the Fair Labor Standards Act child labor provisions and the Department of Labor’s implementing regulations.

Specifically, I will discuss how the current statutory and regulatory

provisions apply to youth employment in lumber and woodworking

occupations. I would also like to talk about our review of two proposals previously suggested by the Amish community to employ its

youth in sawmilling and woodworking industries.

Let me first affirm the Department’s respect for the cultural and

religious traditions of the Amish community. We recognize the

challenges the community faces in preserving these traditions and

way of life.

As their faith prescribes, Amish children end their formal education upon completion of the eighth grade. Thereafter, they are exempt from State laws making school attendance compulsory. For

this reason, the Department permits Amish youth who have completed the eighth grade and are at least 14 years of age to work
11

more hours than are normally permitted 14- and 15-year-olds and

to work during traditional school hours. This is a longstanding accommodation made by the Department.

Following the end of their formal education, Amish youth begin

working alongside their families and others in the community. In

the past, many Amish children worked on a family farm. However,

with farmland becoming scarce and expensive, these opportunities

have declined. Many of the young people now transition to nonfarm occupations like woodworking. As I will discuss, however, the

employment of youth in sawmill and woodworking industries is,

like many other industries, limited by the statutory and regulatory

requirements of the FLSA.

The FLSA specifically prohibits minors under the age of 16 from

working in manufacturing. This includes sawmill and woodworking

industries. The statute also directs the Secretary of Labor to prohibit the employment of minors under the age of 18 in occupations

found to be particularly hazardous or detrimental to their health.

The Secretary makes these determinations in Hazardous Occupation Orders issued through the rulemaking process. There are currently 17 orders in non-agricultural industries, and two are of particular concern.

HO No. 4 prohibits minors under 18 years of age from assuming

any occupation in a sawmill. Not only are the tasks in these areas

too dangerous for young workers, the areas themselves are considered too dangerous. This order does, however, contain a limited exception which would permit 16- and 17-year-olds to perform tasks

such as cleaning up the yard and working in offices and repair or

maintenance shops that are not in the sawmill building. 14- and

15-year-olds may only work in offices and only if the work does not

entail entering the sawmill building.

HO Order No. 5 prohibits minors under the age of 18 from operating and assisting to operate most power-driven woodworking machines. Until they reach the age of 18, young workers can only operate machines or tools not prohibited by the order and can carry

out such tasks as moving materials around and handling or shipping lumber products. 14- and 15-year-olds employed by the woodworking operation may only work in the offices.

In 1966, the Department had an enforcement effort in western

Pennsylvania and found child labor violations in sawmills. Three of

the establishments investigated were Amish-owned and many others employed Amish youth.

Following these investigations, the Wage and Hour Division of

the Department met with members of the Old Order Amish and

their congressional representatives to discuss a request for an accommodation that would permit Amish youth to work in the sawmill and other woodworking industries. Departmental representatives explained the statutory mandate that youth under 16 may not

be employed in manufacturing, the child labor hazardous orders in

question, the basis for these orders, and the Pennsylvania law prohibiting minors under 18 from work involving woodworking equipment and saws. At that time, the Department made no specific accommodation but did offer compliance assistance and outreach to

the Amish community.
12

In 1997, at the request of congressional representatives, the Department explored the feasibility of two specific proposals to allow

16- and 17-year-olds to work in sawmills. The first proposal would

have allowed 16- and 17-year-olds to work in the sawmill building

as long as they remained at least 150 feet away from the equipment. The Department decided and continues to believe that such

a rule would be very difficult to administer. It would be difficult

to substantiate whether or how often any distance rule was observed. Moreover, it would be difficult for the employer to comply

because youth would likely be called to approach the

machinery——

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Markey, your time has expired. I believe

the staff told you it would be 5 minutes. Your full statement will

be part of the record. Could you summarize the balance?

Mr. MARKEY. Yes, I will.

PREPARED STATEMENT

The injury rates in these occupations are extremely high. They

are double that in all other industries. Because of that, with young

workers’ inexperience, smaller size, immaturity, and lack of training, it would be very difficult for the Department to establish a regulatory record that would support a change in the existing hazardous occupation orders in light of the identified hazards.

[The statement follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THOMAS M. MARKEY

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the invitation

to appear today to discuss the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) child labor provisions and the Department of Labor’s implementing regulations. Specifically, I will

discuss how the current statutory and regulatory provisions apply to youth employment in lumber and woodworking occupations. I would also like to talk about our

review of two proposals previously suggested by the Old Order Amish community

to employ its youth in the sawmilling and woodworking industries.

Let me first affirm the Department’s respect for the cultural and religious traditions of the Amish community. We recognize the challenges the community faces in

preserving these traditions and way of life.

As their faith prescribes, Amish children end their formal education upon completion of the eighth grade. Thereafter, they are exempt from state laws making school

attendance compulsory. For this reason, the Department permits Amish youth who

have completed the eighth grade and are at least 14 years of age to work more

hours than are normally permitted 14- and 15-year-olds and to work during traditional school hours. This is a longstanding accommodation made by the Department.

Following the end of their formal education, Amish youth begin working alongside

their families and others in their community. These early work experiences allow

them to become self-reliant within the community and teach them the values associated with a positive work ethic. In the past, many Amish children worked on a family farm. However, with farmland becoming scarce and expensive, the opportunities

for Amish children to work on a family farm have declined. Many of the young people who want to remain with their families now transition to non-farm occupations

like woodworking. As I will discuss, however, the employment of youth in the sawmill and woodworking industries is, like many other industries, limited by the statutory and regulatory requirements of the FLSA.

FLSA CHILD LABOR PROVISIONS

Mr. Chairman, the FLSA specifically prohibits minors under the age of 16 from

working in manufacturing, which includes the sawmill and woodworking industries.

The statute also directs the Secretary of Labor to prohibit the employment of minors

under the age of 18 in occupations found to be particularly hazardous or detrimental

to the health or well-being of these young workers. The Secretary makes these determinations in Hazardous Occupation Orders issued through the rulemaking proc-
13

ess. There are currently 17 Orders in non-agricultural industries, and two are of

particular concern for this issue.

Hazardous Occupations Order No. 4 prohibits minors under 18 years of age from

assuming any occupation in the sawmill itself, the log pond area, or the log storage

yard. Not only are the tasks performed in these areas too dangerous for young workers, the areas themselves are too dangerous. The Hazardous Occupation Order does,

however, contain a limited exception which would permit 16- and 17-year olds to

perform tasks such as cleaning up the yard, and working in offices and repair or

maintenance shops that are not in the sawmill building.

Similarly, fourteen and 15-year-olds may work in the offices of sawmills only if

such work does not entail entering the sawmill building.

Hazardous Occupations Order No. 5 prohibits minors under the age of 18 from

operating, assisting to operate, setting-up, adjusting, repairing, oiling or cleaning

most power-driven woodworking machines. Until they reach the age of 18, young

workers can operate machines or tools not prohibited by the Order and can carry

out tasks such as moving materials around and handling or shipping of lumber

products. However, the safeguards put in place by Hazardous Occupations Order

No. 4 prohibit them from performing these tasks specifically in sawmills.

Fourteen- and fifteen-year-olds employed by woodworking operations may work

only in the offices, where they are permitted to operate most office machines.

The Fair Labor Standards Act limits work hours for fourteen- and fifteen-yearolds. Normally, such youth are prohibited from any employment during school hours

and, on school days, they are limited to working 3 hours per day and then only up

to a total of 18 hours in a school week. However, as I mentioned earlier, Amish children of this age group who have been exempted from their state’s compulsory school

attendance laws may work during normal school hours.

ISSUE

A 1996 enforcement effort in Western Pennsylvania sawmills found many child

labor violations. Three of the establishments investigated were Amish-owned and

many others employed Amish youth. Following these investigations, the Wage and

Hour Division began meeting with members of the Old Order Amish and their Congressional representatives to discuss a request for an accommodation that would

permit Amish youth to work in the sawmill and other woodworking industries.

Those discussions focused on the statutory and regulatory requirements. Departmental representatives explained the statutory mandate that youth under 16 may

not be employed in manufacturing; the child labor Hazardous Occupation Orders in

question; the basis for these orders; and the Pennsylvania State law prohibiting minors under 18 from work involving woodworking equipment and saws. At that time,

the Department made no specific accommodation, but did offer compliance assistance and outreach to the Amish community.

In 1997, at the request of Congressional representatives, the Department explored

the feasibility of two specific proposals to allow 16- and 17-year-olds to work in sawmills. The first proposal would have allowed 16- and 17-year-olds to work in the

sawmill building as long as they remained at least 150 feet away from the sawmill

equipment. The Department decided, and continues to believe, that such a rule

would be very difficult to administer. It would be difficult to substantiate whether

or how often any distance rule was observed. Moreover, it would be difficult for employers to comply because Amish youth would likely be called upon to approach the

machinery while performing non-equipment related tasks or receiving instructions,

putting them at risk of injury by the equipment or by projectiles from the equipment. More importantly, this rule would not be feasible in most Amish sawmills.

These sawmills typically have such compact operations that any worker who must

stay 150 feet away from the equipment would be limited to working outside of the

building.

The second suggested remedy would have allowed 16- and 17-year-olds to work

in a physically separate part of the sawmill building. This proposal likewise did not

seem feasible. Based on visits to representative sawmills, there are no apparent operations that could take place in a separate walled-off room within a sawmill.

Even at 150 feet away from the equipment or in a physically separate part of a

sawmill building, youths may still be exposed to some danger. Hazardous Occupations Order No. 4 was explicitly based not just on hazards from the equipment, but

on hazards inherent in the sawmill operations, such as falling lumber.

The injury rates in these industries are high. Sawmills are dangerous places to

work, even for adults. Between 1995 and 1999, an average of 25 workers a year

were fatally injured on-the-job in sawmills nationwide. Most were killed when they

were either struck by an object or caught in a piece of equipment. The rate of injury
14

in the lumber and wood products industry, which includes sawmills, is likewise

high. In 1999, non-fatal injuries occurred at a rate of 12.5 per 100 full-time workers,

over twice the national average for all industries (5.9 per 100 full-time workers). A

five year average of non-fatal injuries and illness in sawmills suggests nearly 8,000

workers annually suffer injuries severe enough to warrant a day away from work.

Young workers’ inexperience, smaller size, immaturity, and lack of training make

employment in this industry even more dangerous for children. These factors are

that much more significant for 14- and 15-year-olds. Even an adult presence in the

workplace cannot always protect children from the split-second mistake that could

cost them a finger, a hand, or worse. Establishing a regulatory record that would

support a change in the existing Hazardous Occupation Orders—in light of identified industry hazards—would present a difficult challenge.

CONCLUSION

The Department is always happy to work with the Amish community so that it

fully understands child labor obligations and their basis, and is fully aware of options on safe and legal opportunities for employing young people. For example, 16-

and 17-year-olds may perform many woodworking tasks, like assembling furniture

and sanding wood pieces, using traditional hand-powered tools.

Mr. Chairman, any accommodation made to address this issue—whether statutory

or administrative—must be accomplished in a way that respects the cultural traditions of the Amish and protects youths from hazardous work.

We are prepared to evaluate any suggestions, including legislation, that you or

other Subcommittee members may have for accommodating the needs of the Amish

community while ensuring that youth are employed in circumstances that—as required by law—are not hazardous to their health or well-being.

We agree that work experience can be beneficial for young people, and we will

help you explore opportunities for legal and safe employment of Amish youth. Thank

you for the invitation to testify today and I would be pleased to answer any questions.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Markey, let me ask you about the legislation which I proposed, which would allow 14- to 18-year-olds to perform limited duties such as sweeping, stacking wood, and writing

orders with safety provisions which prohibit youths from operating

machinery and requiring the use of eye and body protection. What

would the dangers be if the activities were so limited?

Mr. MARKEY. Well, first, with regard to 14- and 15-year-olds—oh,

you are talking about legislation that would change it.

Senator SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. MARKEY. The dangers would be projectiles probably and falling lumber piles. In the tight areas of sawmills, with forklifts and

such, there is a possibility——

Senator SPECTER. Projectiles?

Mr. MARKEY. Wood projectiles usually, chips from the sawing.

Senator SPECTER. Perhaps that could be accommodated by an additional requirement of being a certain distance from the saw?

Mr. MARKEY. We had representatives look at some of these sawmills, and the areas are not that large, surely not 150 feet. I think

these projectiles——

Senator SPECTER. Well, a projectile is not going to go 150 feet.

What is the maximum distance a projectile would go?

Mr. MARKEY. I really do not know that, sir.

Senator SPECTER. Well, would you find that out? Make a determination as to where the concern is as to projectiles.

What I would like to see us do—Secretary Chao testified yesterday. I think this may well be a matter to handle administratively,

but if it cannot be handled administratively, then it is a matter for

congressional action. Congress may not pass it.
15

You raise a specific issue on projectiles. I would ask you to go

back and delineate the scope of that problem so we might find a

way to solve it.

Mr. MARKEY. We will do that, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SPECTER. Any other specific danger that you see beyond

projectiles? You say falling?

Mr. MARKEY. Falling lumber piles, yes.

Senator SPECTER. Well, we could write a provision in about not

being near falling lumber piles. If you are talking about sweeping

and writing orders, you are in a pretty safe line.

I would like you to take a look at the legislative proposals, what

has passed the House and what is in the Senate bill, and if you

can identify other dangers, let us try to work on ways of solving

them. That is what I would like you to do. Fair enough?

Mr. MARKEY. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we will do that.

Senator SPECTER. Anything else you would like to add?

Mr. MARKEY. No.

Senator SPECTER. Okay, Mr. Markey, thank you very much.

We turn now to panel three, Mr. Christ Blank, Mr. Bill

Burkholder, Mr. Herman Bontrager. Would you gentlemen step forward please?

The media has already been advised that there are not to be any

cameras. I do not see any in the hearing room in any event, but

I raise that admonition just as a matter of form.

STATEMENT OF CHRIST BLANK, CHAIRMAN, OLD ORDER AMISH

STEERING COMMITTEE, KINZERS, PA

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Blank is both a farmer and an accountant.

He does tax work for Amish clients. He is Chairman of the Old

Order Amish Steering Committee, a native of Lancaster, PA.

As I had announced before, Mr. Blank, the green light goes on

when you start. The yellow light comes on at 4 minutes, and the

red light pops up at 5 minutes. We look forward to your testimony,

sir.

Mr. BLANK. Thank you. Mr. Chairman and committee members,

it is with appreciation, but humbleness, that we come before your

committee today. We wish to thank you for the opportunity to bring

some of our concerns before you.

I am speaking here on behalf of many Old Order Amish and

Mennonite communities throughout the United States. In recent

years, we have been getting more and more complaints of Amish

and Mennonite businesses being fined for allowing boys under age

18 to work in their place of business. Our concern is the infringement of these child labor laws on our way of life.

As many of you undoubtedly know, the Amish way of life and religious beliefs prohibit formal education beyond the eighth grade

level. Typically the Amish youth leave school at the end of eighth

grade, but their education does not stop. Instead, they only begin

to absorb in earnest the knowledge and skills needed to earn a livelihood and support a family. Upon completion of the eight terms of

elementary school, many Amish children are enrolled in an informal vocational class of learning by doing under parent and church

supervision to further prepare them to enter into the adult workplace. This informal vocational class is recognized by the U.S. Su-
16

preme Court ruling in Wisconsin v. Yoder as a legal alternative to

the compulsory school attendance laws.

At age 14, an Amish boy or girl is considered to be ready for a

full course of training, a training that requires learning by doing.

This adolescent period is of utmost importance to our religious status. We must not tolerate idleness during these adolescent years.

Therefore, we see a dire need that our youth learn a trade or remain occupied, preferably under the supervision of the parent or

church member.

It is a longstanding Amish belief and tradition to instill good

work ethics in our children at a young age and to start training a

child at a fairly young age to become a self-supporting, respectful,

and law-abiding citizen. We strongly believe the ages 14 through

17 to be a very tender receptive age in which to instill these longstanding Amish values and work ethics in our children. We believe

that forced idleness in this age to be detrimental to our longstanding Amish way of raising our children and teaching them to

become good, productive citizens.

We recognize that historically the child labor laws have been

more lenient on farm labor, especially on a family farm. For many

years, our livelihood was largely based on agriculture, and for

many it still is. However, due to many reasons beyond our control,

the trend is gradually forcing more and more of our youth to learn

other trades. We try to encourage an occupation where the youth

is learning by doing by working in a place where the father or a

member of the church is available to assist him.

We have many Amish-owned or operated sawmills among our

communities. We also have many woodworking shops. Our youth

are well-qualified and capable of providing hand labor in stacking

and sorting lumber as it comes away from the saws. This sorting

and stacking operation usually occurs some distance away from the

saws themselves. However, under present regulations, no one

under age 18 is allowed to work in a sawmill.

We have in the audience several owners or sawmill operators

who were investigated and fined for allowing boys under age 18 to

work in these various situations described above.

In our small woodworking shops, there are many occupations our

children would be capable of performing. However, more and more

of our small woodworking shops are finding themselves in violation

with the child labor laws because of power tools that are needed

to be efficient. Under present regulations, even the owner’s own

boy could not work until age 16 in a manufacturing operation or

age 18 in any occupation which the Secretary of Labor shall declare

to be hazardous.

We had a situation recently in Pennsylvania where an Amish

person had a sawmill. He had two of his own boys working there.

Due to a situation that occurred at a neighboring sawmill, the Department of Labor came out and investigated this particular situation here. While they did not fine the man for having his own children working there, he did receive a very stern warning from the

Department of Labor saying, if we come back again, find these boys

working here, we will shut down your operation. That has, of

course, created a concern in the community.
17

There seems to be a lot of government interest in finding ways

to better prepare today’s youth to enter into today’s workforce.

Many States are drafting school to work acts. It seems coincidental

that at the same time these Amish are being fined for pursuing a

system that has proved successful in preparing our youth for adulthood and to be respectful, self-supporting citizens.

We realize that the object of child labor law is to protect the children. We Amish share your concern for the safety of the workplace.

We have in the audience here a member of an Amish safety committee that was set up——

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Blank, your time has expired. Your full

statement will be made a part of the record. So, if you could summarize, we would appreciate it.

PREPARED STATEMENT

Mr. BLANK. So, what we would ask and plea of you men of authority is to try to find some reasonable solution to the current

problem and concern that we bring before you today. We wish you

many blessings and the guidance from above in performing your

many, very important duties as elected officials of our country. And

may the Lord bless you. Thank you.

[The statement follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHRIST K. BLANK

Mr. Chairman and Committee members, It is with appreciation, but humbleness,

that we come before your committee today. We wish to thank you for the opportunity to bring some of our concerns before you.

I am speaking here on the behalf of the many Old Order Amish and Mennonite

communities through out the United States. In recent years we are getting more

and more complaints of Amish & Mennonite businesses being fined for allowing

boys under age 18 to work in their place of business. Our concern is the infringement of these Child Labor Laws on our way of life.

As many of you undoubtedly know, the Amish way of life and religious beliefs prohibit formal education beyond the eighth grade level. Typically, the Amish youth

leave school at the end of eighth grade, but their education does not stop there. Instead, they only begin to absorb in earnest, the knowledge and skills needed to earn

a livelihood and support a family. Upon completion of the eight terms of elementary

school, many Amish children are enrolled in an informal vocation class of learning

by doing under parent and church supervision to further prepare them to enter into

the adult work place. This informal vocational class is recognized by the United

States Supreme Court ruling in Wisconsin v. Yoder, as a legal alternative to the

compulsory school attendance laws.

At age 14, an Amish boy or girl is considered to be ready for a full course of training. A training that requires ‘‘learning by doing’’. This adolescent period is of utmost

importance to our religious status. We must not tolerate idleness during these adolescent years, therefore, we see a dire need that our youth learn a trade or remain

occupied, preferably under supervision of a parent or church member. It is a longstanding Amish belief and tradition to instill good work ethics in our children at

a young age and to start training a child at a fairly young age to become a selfsupporting, respectful and law abiding citizen. ‘‘Train up a child in the way he

should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.’’ (Proverbs 22:6). We strongly believe the ages 14 through 17 to be a very tender receptive age in which to instill these long standing Amish values and work ethics in our children. We believe

that forced idleness in this age to be detrimental to our long-standing Amish way

of raising our children and teaching then to become good productive citizens. Keeping young hands busy also keeps them out of mischief.

We recognize that, historically, the Child Labor laws have been more lenient on

farm labor, especially on a family farm. For many years our livelihood was based

largely on agriculture and for many still is. However due to many reasons beyond

our control, the trend is gradually forcing more and more of our youth to learn other

trades. We try to encourage an occupation where such youth is learning by doing
18

by working at a place where his father or a member of the church is available to

supervise him.

Due to the high cost of our dwindling supply of farm land, more and more of our

families are being forced to start small businesses such as woodworking shops, welding shops, sawmills, pallet shops etc. This is in keeping with the Amish tradition

of operating a family business so the family can work together.

We have many Amish owned or operated sawmills among our communities. Our

youth are well qualified and capable of providing hand labor in stacking and sorting

the lumber as it comes away from the saws. This sorting and stacking operation

usually occurs some distance away from the saws themselves. However, under the

present regulations no one under age 18 is allowed to work in a sawmill building.

We have in the audience several owners of sawmill operations that were investigated and fined for allowing boys under age 18 to work in the very situation described above. None of the owners were aware that they were in violation of the

child labor law until the investigator showed up. They were told to send the boys

home and warned that if he (the investigator) comes back again in several weeks

and finds the boys back on the premises, he will shut the whole operation down.

These threats created a great concern in the area, not only among the Amish, but

also among their non Amish neighbors. They received no warning before they were

fined even though the owners indicated they would comply with the order.

One of the owners related an incident to me where one of the boys, whom he was

required to send home, came back and asked in tears, ‘‘When can I come to work

again?’’ The owner of course had to say ‘‘Not until you are eighteen.’’

In our small woodworking shops there are many occupations our youth would be

capable of performing, however, more and more of our small woodworking shops are

finding themselves in violation with the child labor laws because of the power tools

that are needed to be efficient. Under the present Regulations even the owners own

boy could not work until age 16 in a manufacturing operation or age 18 in any occupation which the Secretary of Labor shall declare to be hazardous.

There seems to be a lot governmental interest in finding ways to better prepare

today’s youth to enter into today’s workforce. Many states are drafting School to

Work Acts. It seems coincidental that at the same time, these Amish are being fined

for pursuing a system which has been proven successful in preparing our youth for

adulthood and to be respectful, self-supporting citizens.

In Wisconsin v. Yoder, Dr. Donald Erickson testified that the Amish System of

learning by doing was an ‘‘ideal system’’ of education in terms of preparing Amish

children for life as adults in the Amish community. He further stated, ‘‘Many public

educators would be elated if their programs would be as successful in preparing

their students for productive community life as the Amish system seems to be.’’

We realize that the object of the Child Labor laws is to protect the children. We

Amish share your concern for safety in the work place. As an illustration of our concern, in a number of our larger communities we have set up Amish safety committees. The purpose of these committees are to work with Amish businesses to help

make our people more aware of safety practices that need to be instilled in our work

places to make them safer.

As Old Order Amish, we desire to be a self supporting group, taking care of their

own needy and elderly people, in their own way, without depending on the government for assistance. In the past we have been granted a number of exemptions from

participating in various programs or requirements which our forefathers saw as

being detrimental to our way of life or which our religious beliefs prohibit. We very

much appreciate the many privileges which we have been granted over the years.

It is our deepest desire to continue to be a self-supporting group and not to become

a burden on society.

We ask and plea of you men of authority to find some reasonable solution to this

current problem and concern that we bring before you today. We wish you many

blessings and the guidance from above in performing your many very important duties as elected officials of our country. May the Lord Bless you.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Blank.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM BURKHOLDER, OWNER, C.B. HARDWOOD

LUMBER CO., CENTERVILLE, PA

Senator SPECTER. We turn now to Mr. Bill Burkholder, an Amish

sawmill owner and operator from Centerville, PA, who was cited

and fined by the Labor Department for child labor violations. His

company, C.B. Hardwood, employs 50 people, most of whom are
19

Amish. Thank you for coming in, Mr. Burkholder. We look forward

to your testimony.

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Thank you. Mr. Chairman and committee

members, thank you for the opportunity to present to you our concern regarding well-intended child labor laws and the adverse impact some of these laws are now having in our Amish community

to our way of life.

I am sure you are aware children in our community finish classroom school in eighth grade, learning the essentials of reading,

writing, and arithmetic. While this learning is an important part

of shaping their lives, preparing them for adulthood, their success

with our way of life requires other skills as well. Many of our adult

occupations have been learned by doing. Despite living in a technological world, we have limited ourselves by choice to occupations

that leave time for our faith in God and for our families. Farming,

carpentry, wood and metal shops, sawmills, harness making, and

furniture making are some of the ways I am sure you recognize we

earn our living. They are occupations that reinforce self-reliance

within our group or community as well as the work ethic.

While many of your own children might have a computer at an

early age to begin to acquire the skills they may need to thrive in

a modern, fast-paced world, our society requires faith and tradition

to keep itself together to continue to thrive in our modern world.

Again, this tradition is one of our faith in God, a belief in the importance of our families, of self-reliance within our group, and hard

work. These beliefs and lessons we share with our children, even

at a very young age. They learn by our example and by doing.

We recognize that child labor laws were made and needed to correct abuse in the past. These laws still help ensure that children

are not forced into unsafe, exploitive labor. We hope you recognize

that we pursue the same goal as you regarding the safety of our

children.

In 1971, the Supreme Court, by its decision in Yoder v. Board

of Education, recognized the intent and purpose for us to educate

our children in our schools. Graduates from our Amish schools are

most often eager to prove themselves as hard workers. They turn

to farm, shop, or mill owners like myself, to earn an income to get

started on a farm or other business on their own. This is a cycle

that has repeated itself successfully throughout the history of our

community in the United States.

PREPARED STATEMENT

Despite rising land costs, property taxes, income taxes, school

taxes, startup costs for businesses, buildings, equipment, and machinery, our young people overcome many obstacles to start off on

their own in our community. Besides a commitment to hard work

to achieve their goals, they also must rely on their families and

business owners like myself to help them get started.

[The statement follows:]
20

PREPARED STATEMENT OF WILLIAM BURKHOLDER

INTRODUCTION

Thank you for the opportunity to present to you our concerns regarding well-intended child labor laws, and the adverse impact some of these laws are having in

our Amish community, to our way of life.

As I’m sure you are aware, children in our community finish classroom school in

eighth grade, learning the essentials of reading, writing, and arithmetic. While this

learning is an important part of shaping their lives, preparing them for adulthood,

their success with our way of life requires other skills as well. Many of our adult

occupations have been learned by doing. Despite living in a technological world, we

have limited our selves, by choice, to occupations that leave time for our faith in

God, and for our families. Farming, carpentry, wood and metal shops, saw mills,

harness making and furniture making are some of the ways I’m sure you recognize

we earn our living.

They are occupations that reinforce self reliance within our group or community

as well as the work ethic. While many of your own children might have a computer

at an early age to begin to acquire the skills they will need to thrive in a modern,

fast paced world, our society requires faith and tradition to keep itself together to

continue to thrive in a modern world. Again, this tradition is one of our faith in

God, a belief in the importance of our families, of self reliance within our group and

hard work. These beliefs and lessons we share with our children, even at a very

young age. They learn by our example and by doing. We recognize that child labor

laws were made and needed to correct abuses in the past. These laws still help insure that children are not forced into unsafe, exploitive labors. We hope you recognize that we pursue the same goal as you regarding the safety of our children.

In 1971, the Supreme Court, by its decision in Yoder v. Board of Education recognized the intent and purpose for us to educate our children in our own schools.

Graduates from our Amish schools are most often eager to prove themselves as hard

workers. They turn to farm, shop, or mill owners like myself, to earn an income to

got started on a farm or other business on their own. This is a cycle that has repeated itself successfully throughout the history of our community in the United

States.

Despite rising land costs, property taxes, income taxes, school taxes, start up costs

for business, buildings, equipment and machinery, our young people overcome many

obstacles to start off on their own in our community. Besides a commitment to hard

work to achieve their goals, they must rely on their families and business owners

like myself to helm them get started.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Burkholder.

STATEMENT OF HERMAN BONTRAGER, SECRETARY/TREASURER, NATIONAL COMMITTEE FOR AMISH RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

Senator SPECTER. We now turn to Mr. Herman Bontrager, President of Goodville Mutual Casualty company in New Holland, PA.

He grew up in an Amish home in Indiana, living in Pennsylvania

for the past 25 years, a member of the Board of the National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom. Thank you for joining us, Mr.

Bontrager. We look forward to your testimony.

Mr. BONTRAGER. Senator Specter, committee members, friends,

thank you for the opportunity to comment today.

The National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom was organized to help the Amish regain their right to educate their own

children. The committee’s most notable achievement was when the

late constitutional attorney, William Ball, successfully defended the

Amish in Wisconsin v. Yoder in the U.S. Supreme Court. Some of

the issues related to apprenticeships of Amish youth in family and

Amish businesses are the same as the religious liberty issues in

Wisconsin v. Yoder.

The Amish and Mennonites, stemming from the 1525 Anabaptist

stream of the Protestant reformation, believe that it is essential to

imitate the life and spirit of Jesus and to follow his teachings in
21

all of life. Faith for them is not only a personal belief, it is a corporate practice nurtured by the community. In the Amish way of

life, the sacred and the secular are inseparably intertwined.

Amish believe that children are a gift from God. Parents, supported by the Amish community of faith, take seriously their responsibility to prepare children for life. That formation consists of

wisdom, such things as character, honesty, humility, long-suffering,

concern for the welfare of others. It includes a work ethic, a commitment to quality, and the vocational skills that equip children for

useful adult participation in the community in the Amish way of

life.

The Amish way of life is both a religious and a social commitment. Thus, it is important that work be performed in the context

of a supportive community, in other words, at home or as close to

home as possible. I quote Rev. William Lindholm, the chairman of

our committee. ‘‘Only Amish persons can model and teach children

to be Old Order Amish. If the Amish cannot teach their own children Amish ways, their religious culture will be destroyed.’’

Thus, teaching by example is essential and is the preferred pedagogy of the Amish. Working together as a family or in the community forges a strong sense of identity, family cohesion, and a sense

of responsibility.

Amish vocational training is primarily accomplished through apprenticeships in the context of their extended families. They do not

utilize high schools or vocational schools, technical schools, or colleges for training. Apprenticeships adequately meet the training

needs of Amish young people and help to keep them integrated in

the Amish community during those crucial adolescent years. This

system keeps their children off the streets, out of prisons, and

makes them contributors to the welfare of the community at a very

early age. It is important to the Amish to train children to do the

best they can in their work and to do it safely.

So, I urge the Senate to enact legislation to amend the Fair

Labor Standards Act in a manner that will make it possible for

Amish and other religious groups such as Old Order Mennonites

and Brethren to maintain their time-tested practice of apprenticeship. A labor code that makes it possible for the Old Order religious community to provide for vocational training will help to preserve the Old Order way of life.

The Old Order way of life is, first and foremost, a matter of conscience based on religious faith. Apprenticeships, one of the few acceptable means available to Amish and Old Order groups to bring

up their children in the heart of the community, are in effect a religious practice for them. Apprenticeships are the means for holistic

formation of Old Order youth. They are not inappropriate child

labor practices that exploit children in large factories to serve the

profit motives of outside investors. It is of compelling interest to

the state to assure that there is adequate provision for these religious groups, the Amish and other Old Orders, to train and bring

up their children according to the dictates of their conscience and

their faith.

Anabaptist faith understands that all aspects of life, whether

spiritual or material, whether worship or work, are to be lived

humbly under the Lordship of Christ. Religious faith is the basis
22

for the Amish way of life. The U.S. Constitution assures liberty for

all citizens to believe and practice their faith as conscience dictates.

The Nation’s laws need to uphold that religious liberty. Amish apprenticeships do not present any threat to public health and safety

nor to the welfare of any segment of our society.

PREPARED STATEMENT

Wisconsin v. Yoder set a strong precedent in support of the

Amish providing education and for training their children in ways

that preserve their community. This is a matter of conscience, and

thus we need legislative relief.

[The statement follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF HERMAN BONTRAGER

Thank you for the opportunity to talk with you about the unique training needs

of Amish youth and preservation of the Amish way of life. I am interested in testifying on this matter for the following reasons: (a) I was raised in an Amish family

and community in Northern Indiana and personally benefited from the vocational

and values training that is an integral part of the Amish way of life; (b) I am concerned that the United States government unequivocally respect and support the

freedom of conscience of all its citizens; and (c) I work with the National Committee

for Amish Religious Freedom.

The National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom was organized to help the

Amish regain their right to educate their own children. The Committee’s most notable achievement was when the late constitutional attorney William Ball successfully

defended the Amish in Wisconsin v. Yoder in the U.S. Supreme Court. Some of the

issues related to apprenticeships of Amish youth in family and Amish businesses

are the same as the religious liberty issues in Wisconsin v. Yoder.

1. The Amish and Mennonites, stemming from the 1525 Anabaptist stream of the

Protestant reformation, believe that it is essential to imitate the life and spirit of

Jesus and to follow his teachings in all of life. The Amish community is where individuals live out their faith. Faith for them is not only a personal belief, it is a corporate practice nurtured by the community. In the community Amish find support

from fellow followers of Christ, live in harmony and support each other, and discern

how to relate redemptively to the larger world. In the Amish way of life the sacred

and the secular are inseparably intertwined.

2. Amish believe that children are a gift from God. Parents, supported by the

Amish community of faith, take seriously their responsibility to prepare children for

life. That formation consists of wisdom, (including character, honesty, humility,

long-suffering, concern for the welfare of others), a work ethic, commitment to quality, and the vocational skill that equip children for useful adult participation in the

community, in the Amish way of life.

3. The Amish way of life is both a religious and social commitment, nurtured

within the Amish community as individuals live out their faith in everyday life activities. It is important that work be performed in the context of a supportive ethnic

community, in other words, at home or as close to home as possible. Passing on the

values of the Amish way of life and teaching the skills their children need for living

in the community are a sacred trust assumed by Amish parents and the whole community. ‘‘Only Amish persons can model and teach children to be Old Order

Amish . . . . If the Amish cannot teach their own children Amish ways, their religious culture will be destroyed’’ (Lindholm, 1993: 120–121).

4. The agrarian way of life, farming, is by far the best way to preserve the Amish

way of life. Both parents are present, the family is together for work and play, children learn life skills by being with and observing their parents and other family

members, children learn vocations by helping in the real work of their parents’ livelihood (on the job learning, constantly supervised by someone who really cares for

them), and children experience validation by doing work that contributes to the welfare of the family. Children are encouraged to be useful but are not pushed to perform tasks beyond their ability. Teaching by example is the preferred pedagogy of

the Amish. Working together as a family forges a strong sense of identity, family

cohesion and a sense of responsibility.

5. Occupational diversification has increased among the Amish as farming is no

longer available for all. Unavailability of farmland, the high cost of investment to

start farming, and competition with high tech, corporate farming have forced Amish
23

to adopt other vocations. To preserve the family as the primary work unit and to

retain control over the work environment the Amish develop small businesses so

they do not need to work in large outside businesses. This emerging adaptation to

keep parents and children working together makes it possible to keep their young

people in a setting where they are supervised by family or others from the Amish

community.

6. Whether it is on the farm or in the numerous other occupations they pursue

through their own businesses and cottage industries, Amish vocational training is

primarily accomplished through apprenticeships in the context of their extended

families. They do not utilize high schools, vocational schools, technical schools or colleges for training. Apprenticeships adequately meet the training needs of Amish

young people and help to keep them integrated in the Amish community during the

crucial adolescent years. This system, which provides both technical training and

values transmission in the context of the family, keeps children off the streets, out

of prisons and makes them contributors to the welfare of the community at an early

age. Apprenticeships are effective for this religious group and do not cost the state

or federal governments anything.

7. Motivated by love for their God-given children and a commitment to equip them

with practical life skills for living in the Amish community, parents take very seriously the task of providing relevant training and formative experiences for their

children. Learning life skills and developing a sense of responsibility are most effective when done in the context of real, meaningful work. It is important to the Amish

to train children to do the best they can in their work and to do it safely. Thus,

careful supervision and instruction are provided, preferably by the parents or another family member. Supervision by non-family members is also dependable since

it is the heartfelt desire of Amish people to retain their children in the community

and to help them become productive contributors to the welfare of the Amish community.

8. I urge you to enact legislation to amend the Fair Labor Standards Act in a

manner that will make it possible for the Amish and other religious groups such

as Old Order Mennonites and Brethren to maintain their time-tested practice of apprenticeship. A labor code that makes it possible for the Old Order religious community to provide for vocational learning in the context of the ethnic community and

family will help to preserve the Old Order way of life. The Old Order way of life

is first and foremost a matter of conscience, based on religious faith. Apprenticeships, one of the few acceptable means available to Amish and other Old Order

groups to bring up their children in the heart of the community, are, in effect, a

religious practice for them. Apprenticeships are the means for holistic formation of

Old Order youth, they are not inappropriate child labor practices that exploit children in large factories to serve the profit motives of outside investors. It is of compelling interest to the state to assure that there is adequate provision for these religious groups, the Amish and other Old Orders, to train and bring up their children

according to the dictates of their conscience and their faith.

9. The relief sought through an amendment to the Fair Labor Standards Act is

to provide flexibility that permits Amish and other Old Order youth ages 14 to 18

years to learn skills and values by working in what are the typical and common

businesses operated by Amish and other Old Order groups. It is not to compromise

their safety. Supervision by adult family members or other adults from the Amish

community and certain limitations on activities these youth may perform are acceptable requirements.

10. Anabaptist faith understands that all aspects of life, whether spiritual or material, whether worship or work, are to be lived humbly under the Lordship of

Christ. Religious faith is the basis for the Amish way of life. The U.S. constitution

assures liberty for all citizens to believe and practice their faith as conscience dictates. The nation’s laws need to uphold that religious liberty. Amish apprenticeships

do not present any threat to public health and safety nor to the welfare of any segment of society.

Wisconsin v. Yoder set a strong precedent in support of Amish providing education

and training for their children in ways that preserve their community.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter that is vital to the interests of

the Amish and other religious communities.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Bontrager.

I am going to have to recess the hearing for just a few minutes.

I also serve on other committees like Judiciary, and they are waiting to get a quorum to vote out the new Deputy Attorney General

and Solicitor General. So, if you will excuse me for just a few min-
24

utes. There are some other matters I want to conduct in this hearing. I will return.

The recess is now in effect.

[A brief recess was taken.]

Senator SPECTER. Our hearing will resume.

Mr. Bontrager, let me begin with you on your articulation of the

issue of apprenticeship as a form of religion which is an articulation which would bring this kind of work into the Freedom of Religion Clause, the exercise of religion. Would you amplify as to how

you would describe the apprenticeship being a form of religious activities?

Mr. BONTRAGER. Well, I would not use the words exactly that

way because the Amish way of thinking is you cannot separate the

scared and the secular, work from all the other activities of life. So,

apprenticeship is just part of being a faithful follower of Jesus, as

is every other thing we do. For example, you and I, all of us in this

room, from the Amish perspective, are doing all of this in the presence of God, and thus everything we do needs to honor God.

Senator SPECTER. I thought that you had said—I made a note

here—apprenticeship is a form of religious activity. Am I incorrect

about that?

Mr. BONTRAGER. Well, I said because of the reasons I just articulated, one of the few acceptable means—apprenticeships, that is, to

bring up children in the heart of the community, are in effect a religious practice for them, but as is everything that one does in that

sense.

Senator SPECTER. Well, you might have a little harder justification for making apprenticeship a form of religious activity if you

have a blank characterization of all activities being religious. But

if there were something about an apprenticeship as a pursuit of religion as the Amish view it, it might put it in a different category.

Mr. BONTRAGER. Apprenticeship the way the Amish do it, which

needs to be in the context of the Amish community and the family,

learning all of life’s values and skills in that context in that sense

is what I mean to——

Senator SPECTER. It certainly is a form of religious activity to organize their lives in a different way from others to, as you say,

have the telephone in a different spot, to not have carriage tops.

Well, it is an interesting concept that I wanted to develop with you.

I think it was your comment, Mr. Blank, that you said that the

young people who work in the sawmills are some distance from the

sawmills. What did you think of what Mr. Markey said about the

danger of projectiles?

Mr. BLANK. Well, I would say that most of the sawmills that I

have seen in operation, you have your saw where the logs are actually being sawed, and there are always some conveyors. Most of

those conveyors I have seen are usually a length of probably 100

foot or so away from the saw. I just do not see that——

Senator SPECTER. You say the individuals are 100 feet or so?

Mr. BLANK. At least that. Would you not say so, Bill?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Yes.

Mr. BLANK. What they are doing, they are just stacking lumber,

sorting lumber.
25

Senator SPECTER. And the projectile should not go nearly that

far?

Mr. BLANK. No, I would not say.

Senator SPECTER. What would you say the maximum distance a

projectile could go?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. 90 feet, 100 feet. It’s maximum.

Senator SPECTER. How would it go that far?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Well, by the time it leaves the saw, it goes

through the edger, and when it goes out, they pile it out and push

it down conveyors.

Senator SPECTER. Well, that is the lumber going 90 feet or 100

feet. Is that what you are saying?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. A projectile is a piece of wood which would

splinter off and might snap up and hit somebody. I never worked

in a sawmill, but as a teenager, I worked in my dad’s junk yard.

And I used to run an oxyacetylene torch, and there would be a lot

of sparks which would fly and you try to get away from the sparks.

That is not quite a projectile, but you try to get out of the way.

Mr. BLANK. I just do not see that the projectile for that distance

from the saw should be any problem or concern at all.

Senator SPECTER. Well, what is the maximum distance, Mr.

Blank, that you think a projectile might fly?

Mr. BLANK. Oh, I would say 15, 20 feet maybe.

Senator SPECTER. How would it go that far?

Mr. BLANK. Well, when I am talking about projectiles, I am not

looking at a big piece. I am looking at small chips of wood that

might fly off the saw or something like that. Due to the saw being

spinning, it might throw a piece off. But I do not see any big pieces

flying that distance.

Senator SPECTER. And if it went as far as 15 or 20 feet, how big

would it be?

Mr. BLANK. Oh, that might be, I would say, a couple inches in

diameter maybe or something like that, and that would be the

maximum.

Senator SPECTER. Do the people around there wear eye protection?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. As a rule, yes, eye protection and ear plugs.

Senator SPECTER. If it hit you in the eye, it could do a lot of damage. If it hit you on the arm, it might give you a bruise. I got hit

by a squash ball this morning.

Mr. BURKHOLDER. That is very, very seldom. I have never seen

anything——

Senator SPECTER. You have never been hit by a squash ball you

say?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. I have never seen anything fly when—I have

been in the mill business for 20 years.

Senator SPECTER. I am just kidding you, Mr. Burkholder, about

the squash ball, but I am making the point that if you get hit in

the arm, you are not likely to be injured severely. You might have

a bruise. You probably would not even have a cut.

Well, I want to examine this, and that is why I have asked Mr.

Markey to examine it to see what the risks are and how we might

protect——
26

Mr. BURKHOLDER. The man that cuts the wood—if the off-bearer

takes the wood away—and if that hits that saw, I know when I was

a little boy, there was a man about 21 years old and the fellow let

that piece of wood drop on the saw and it took him right over the

top and it caught his head right there and killed him instantly. But

you have to be very cautious with that.

Senator SPECTER. You are talking about the guy who is operating

the saw right on the spot.

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Right.

Now, what we are asking to work is from the opposite direction.

It would not be anything in that direction at all.

Senator SPECTER. So, the young people would not be in the line

of fire.

Mr. BURKHOLDER. No.

Senator SPECTER. It must have been a very unusual thing for a

man to be killed.

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Right. It is very unusual.

Senator SPECTER. A blow to the head would have to be ordinarily

pretty strong, hit a very tender spot.

Mr. Burkholder, tell us a little about the situation where you

were fined by the Department of Labor. What occurred on that?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Well, I have six boys and I had them in the

pallet shop.

Senator SPECTER. Six of your sons?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. No. My boys were there when they was young.

They started out as soon as they were out of school, but they were

old enough that they did to go back that far. They did not get my

boys.

I had them in the pallet shop on the mill, and we take our lumber from the mill. We take it 200 feet away from the sawmill, and

we lay it on a conveyor. It moves real slow and the boys——

Senator SPECTER. So, how close were these boys? You had eight

boys or six boys?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. These were the lumber after it was sawed.

Senator SPECTER. Did you have six boys or eight boys?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Six boys.

Senator SPECTER. And how close were the boys to the saw?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. About 200 feet from the saw. And that is

where they were piling the lumber, and they said the lumber was

too heavy.

Senator SPECTER. So, the fine was for the heaviness of the lumber.

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. How much does the lumber weigh?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Well, at times you might get a board that

weighs 100 pounds, but very seldom.

Senator SPECTER. Well, if you had a board that weighed 100

pounds, does the boy have to pick it up?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. No, not completely. He drags the board over

and puts it on the cart and then grabs the other end and shoves

it on over.

Senator SPECTER. When I was 15, I used to have to lift up 3-inch

tubing which was 30 feet long and 10 pounds a foot. I had to lift
27

150 pounds up to throw it on a bolster. Where was the Department

of Labor on that case, Mr. Markey?

We ought to take a look at that too, Mr. Markey, to see about

weight so that you do not have to lift something which is unreasonable. I would like your judgment, Mr. Markey—we are going to get

you into the ergonomics hearing now—as to how much you can lift

to see if you have a restriction.

We want to protect the boys. I know you men want to protect the

boys. Is that not right, Mr. Blank?

Mr. BLANK. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Burkholder?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Bontrager?

Mr. BONTRAGER. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. Do you have one more comment, Mr.

Burkholder?

Mr. BURKHOLDER. Yes. They said if the lumber was dry, they

could do it, but as long as it was green, they would not allow it.

Senator SPECTER. We have a young man here today who I understand has some experience in this line. He is not a witness, but I

would like to hear from him. Mr. Noah Byler, would you step forward please? Come up and have a chair.

STATEMENT OF NOAH BYLER

Senator SPECTER. I met Mr. Byler in my office earlier this morning. Mr. Byler, you do not have to testify because you are not on

the witness list and nobody has advised you. But I hope you would

be willing to say a few words about your own experience. I understand you are 21 today.

Mr. NOAH BYLER. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. Do you mind testifying?

Mr. NOAH BYLER. I do not mind.

Senator SPECTER. And you were 17 when the Department of

Labor issued a citation and a fine for your work in a sawmill. Is

that correct?

Mr. NOAH BYLER. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. Tell us what happened there.

Mr. NOAH BYLER. I was piling lumber on a sawmill, and they

made me quit. They said it was too heavy, and I was too close to

machinery.

Senator SPECTER. How close to the machinery were you?

Mr. NOAH BYLER. I was piling lumber behind the edger. From

the saw, it was about 60–70 feet.

Senator SPECTER. Were there any projectiles anywhere near you?

Mr. NOAH BYLER. No. And the issue that he spoke about the projectiles falling down—it would not matter if it would be a young

guy or an old guy, we would not want it falling on anybody. I just

cannot see a lumber pile falling down being any trouble as far as

the child labor law.

Senator SPECTER. Why do you say that?

Mr. NOAH BYLER. Well, they pile the lumber, but you can walk

through anywhere and something might happen, even if you are

not working. I just cannot see where he has a point there.

Senator SPECTER. You were lifting lumber at that time?
28

Mr. NOAH BYLER. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. How heavy was it?

Mr. NOAH BYLER. The boards that I lifted, 50 pounds at the

most. But I had to lift one end, put it on the pile.

Senator SPECTER. So, you lift one end of a 50 pound board?

Mr. NOAH BYLER. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. So, that makes it effectively about half that, or

25 pounds. You look like you are a pretty strong guy. Did that

exert you any?

Mr. NOAH BYLER. I am physical in shape and I am okay. It never

hurt me a bit.

Senator SPECTER. What was the fine that was issued?

Mr. NOAH BYLER. I am not sure. John paid it. My boss.

Senator SPECTER. Well, I think this is very helpful. What we are

going to have to do is circulate this testimony with the other Senators so they understand just exactly what you are looking for

here, an opportunity to carry on your way of life, which you consider to be part of your freedom of religion. You cited the Yoder

case.

We have a gentleman in the audience who has raised his hand.

This is irregular, but come forward. We will hear from you.

STATEMENT OF JOHN BYLER

Mr. JOHN BYLER. I just want to say a few words. He was my employee, and I was fined $3,000.

Senator SPECTER. You are talking about——

Mr. JOHN BYLER. Noah.

Senator SPECTER. You were fined $3,000?

Mr. JOHN BYLER. The other boy was 18 years old.

Senator SPECTER. Would you identify yourself for the record,

please? This young lady who is the stenographer is getting very

nervous. She is going to have to write down a voice out of the audience. So, if you would come forward and identify yourself, we would

appreciate it. What is your name, sir?

Mr. JOHN BYLER. John Byler.

Senator SPECTER. Where is your business located?

Mr. JOHN BYLER. Harrisville, PA.

Senator SPECTER. And tell us a little about the citation and the

fine please.

Mr. JOHN BYLER. Noah and his brother James is two of my employees. And the Labor Department come in and they fined me

$3,000. James was 18 years old. Noah was 17 years old, but they

went back 2 years. They fined them for piling the boards, like they

said, 60–70 feet away from the equipment. The boards weighed 50

pounds at the most, slid them off the pile, just like——

Senator SPECTER. Were they in danger of projectiles from as far

away as they were?

Mr. JOHN BYLER. No. No danger of any kind. You had like a foot

or 2 that you could walk between the piles. The piles was 2–3 feet

high at the most. There is no danger whatsoever.

They had to quit their jobs, had to quit working, piling the lumber, and I had to pay my $3,000 fine.
29

Really everything else, you know, just like Christ and the rest of

them say, we try to teach them learning by doing and our faith and

the ways of the Lord and tried to raise them.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you very much, sir.

CONCLUSION OF HEARING

Thank you all very much for being here, that concludes our hearing.

[Whereupon, at 10:44 a.m., Thursday, May 3, the hearing was

concluded and the subcommittee was recessed, to reconvene subject

to the call of the Chair.]

Æ