Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime

Translation (CART) system used in the Signage Subcommittee meeting and is unedited.

The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss

and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available to the

public on the internet during the meeting.

x--------------------------------x

UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD

RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS

x--------------------------------x

TELECONFERENCE

*DRAFT*

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 6, 2014

1:00 p.m.

Location: United States Access Board

1331 F Street, NW, Suite 1000

Washington, DC 20004

Reporter: Sandra Gartrell
2

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

MR. BEATTY: This is Paul Beatty with the Access

Board. As you know from the various emails I sent

out, the purpose of this call is to understand what

ADAAG requires. It is not to discuss whether ADAAG is

appropriate in terms of the signage provisions

appropriate to apply to the rail vehicles or

discussion of what provisions need to be modified for

purposes applying to rail vehicles or a time to

complain about ADAAG provisions in general.

The focus is to what does ADAAG require and to

give you an idea how it may translate to a rail

vehicle. We will also spend time reviewing the

variable message signage in the American National

Standards and Accessibility Standards, A.17.1. You

got a handout on that, and also a handout of what we

believe the 100 percent of the signage requirements in

the current rail guidelines. I used the words "sign"

and "signage" and searched the document. So as a

colleague pointed out, there may be something buried

in there that says marked by. But we will go through

it and obviously there are some people on this line

that know a lot more about the rail guidelines.

At this point I will turn it over to Jim Pecht

and we will get the ball rolling.
3

MR. PECHT: For those who don't know me, I'm an

accessibility specialist at the Access Board. I have

been here since November of '91. For your

information, also in the room is Marsha Mass and

Melissa Anderson, Aromie Noe, in our office here.

So if you have looked through the requirements in

ADAAG, you will notice in the scoping there are

basically several different ways that ADAAG treats

signs. First is signs required to be both visual and

tactile with braille. Those are required to be in a

certain location so they can been found.

There are requirements for signs that are just

required to be visual in nature. And those have no

specific requirements to location. And then there are

signs which we don't really cover, which is sort of

temporary signs, things like temporary signs in front

of a door or things like a directory or a menu in a

restaurant. We really don't cover those things and

there are also things like signs for specific pieces

of equipment that really are not covered by the

standard as well.

There are only three or four signs which are

actually required. And those are basically the

international symbols and required to reserve certain

things or note certain things.
4

Is there anybody having trouble hearing me?

Because I am --

MS. HAMLIN: This is Lise Hamlin. I'm having

some trouble hearing you. Your voice is very soft.

But I am getting the CART, but if you could project a

little, that would be helpful. Thank you.

MR. PECHT: That is the first time I have ever

been accused of being soft of voice. I will try to

stick my mouth right up to the microphone.

MS. GOLDEN: You blanked out for a few moments

and then you came back and that it is what I heard.

MR. PECHT: Let's see how this works and we will

go from here. Again, like I was saying, the

standards, as far as buildings are concerned, look at

signs in different ways, signs which are required to

be tactile with the braille and visual are required to

be in certain locations so they can be found.

Other signs which have no requirements for

location, only need to meet the visual requirements.

Temporary signs are not required to comply. And signs

which indicate specific pieces of equipment really are

not covered by the standard as well.

The only thing that IS specifically required as

far a sign is concerned are the international symbols

in certain circumstances. So from there, let me sort
5

of step back and let you start raising some questions

about what you have any sort of confusion or need more

understanding with.

<<<: Jim, I don't know if you were going to go

through Section 703 --

MR. PECHT: Could you identify yourself when you

first come on.

MR. MALDARI: I don't know if you were going to

discuss 703 later.

MS. MAZZ: Who are you, please?

MR. MALDARI: Frank Maldari.

MR. PECHT: 703 is the technical requirements and

I assume this is part of the place where you ask

questions about what you are confused about.

MR. MALDARI: You mentioned that only the signs

that have a location requirement need to have various

lettering and braille, right?

MR. PECHT: Right, otherwise how would you find

them.

MR. MALDARI: I'm not against that. But when I

read 703.1.2, it says signs that provide direction or

information about the interior spaces and facilities

of the site, should comply with 703.2.

MR. PECHT: Let me stop and go back a minute.

You have to look at both the scoping chapter up in
6

Chapter 2, the scoping section for signs is Section

216 and that is the section which tells you which

signs have to meet which requirements. And the

technical requirements and the technical chapter,

Chapters 3 through 10, 703 is the technical

requirement for a sign.

So, in other words, if you would go to --

MS. MAZZ: Jim, maybe we want to find out if

people had the opportunity to enjoy the webinar on

signs. If most of you didn't have that opportunity,

then maybe we need to backup and --

MS. HAMLIN: I have the PowerPoint, but I could

not through my system. I don't know if it was

captioned, but I could not hear what was going on with

the webinar. So I didn't get whatever you use -- I

see the PowerPoint, but I don't know if you had more

information there that was not on the PowerPoint.

MS. MAZZ: Yes. And there was a CART transcript

that should play with it.

MS. HAMLIN: Okay. I didn't see it. I can go

back to it later. So if there was a high point that

you wanted to highlight beyond the slides, that would

be helpful.

MS. MAZZ: Did anybody else get to see the

webinar?
7

MR. CORAN: I looked at it but didn't realize

there was any audio to it.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I saw the webinar and I think

probably the confusion is where the PowerPoint link is

on the page, the webinar link is, I think, in the

upper right, away from that. So it is not there,

right there together.

MS. MAZZ: Ah, if you only saw the PowerPoint you

probably didn't get much out of it. So maybe we need

to back up and discuss the relationship between

scoping and technical and go over some of that a

little bit for folks.

MR. PECHT: Okay. As Marsha was saying, you have

to look at both the scoping and the technical.

Primarily you look at scoping first. You have to look

at the scoping to find out which signs have to meet

which requirements. So, for example, in Section

216.2, designations stated interior and exterior signs

identifying permanent rules and spaces shall comply

with 703.1, 703.2 and 703.5 and it goes on to talk

about pictograms.

MS. SCHACTER: Sorry. I dropped the call and

came back in because I was raising a question and

could not be heard and I --

My question is not about what the rules say, but
8

how do we change what it does say. Right now for

people with hearing loss, the only symbol that is used

is the umbrella symbol, which is an ear with a slash,

which says (operator interruption) which if you have a

form of hearing access, but good luck in figuring out

what it is.

Unlike with people with wheelchairs, the specific

individual symbols are needed.

MR. BEATTY: Janice, you may raise a valid

points. But at this point the conference is

specifically focused in on what ADAAG says. The

purpose is to give committee members an understanding

of what ADAAG requires and then a separate conference

to evaluate whether the ADAAG provisions regarding

signage are appropriate or need modification for

application to rail vehicles.

So at this point we want people to understand

what ADAAG requires and then they can take those

parameters, translate it to rail vehicles signages and

decide whether it is appropriate in that context.

MS. MAZZ: Right, and you won't have any impact

on ADAAG itself.

MS. SCHACTER: So if we understand what it means

then we wait for a different phone call?

MR. BEATTY: The second conference call purpose
9

is to focus on if we use ADAAG are provisions in ADAAG

appropriate for rail vehicles and are any provisions

needing modifications for purposes of rail vehicles.

We are not modifying the ADAAG requirements as it

relates to building the facilities. We are simply

using it as a tool to develop rail guideline

provisions regarding signage.

I will turn it back to Jim to continue the

discussion about what ADAAG requires.

MS. SCHACTER: Okay. I will jump off because I

will join the second call. Because I know what the

rules say; I just don't agree with them.

MR. BEATTY: Okay.

MS. SCHACTER: Great. Bye. Sorry.

MR. BEATTY: Jim, would you continue with the

scoping. Thank you.

MR. PECHT: So, anyway, you will notice in the

provision I read it doesn't reference every section in

Chapter 703 for signs. It only references a few. It

will go to those requirements and they may reference

you to various parts of the standards in other places.

But for the most part, you will be limited in

what you are looking at with regards to what the

scoping directs you to. So in other words, for signs

which designate a permanent number space like a room
10

number, those are required to be both visual and

tactile and include the braille and they have a

specific mounting height and location.

There is another row vision in the scoping which

talks about signs which give you direction to or

information about functional spaces. And those will

send you to just the visual requirements. They don't

pick up the tactile requirements and they don't pick

up the specific location.

So once you sort of understand what scoping does,

you can sort of figure out, "Okay, in a rail car I

want this sign to do this so I need to put a scoping

requirement for that type of sign." And that will

send you to the technical requirements that tells you

what the sign has to look like to meet the

requirements for accessibility with regard to height

of character, stroke, width and character spacing and

all that, finish and contrast and all that kind of

stuff.

Does that help with regards to understanding how

the scoping works with the technical requirements?

<<<: I thought that was very helpful, Jim.

MR. MALDARI: I thought that was very helpful. I

do have a question, though, in looking at 216.2, I'm

looking at that section now.
11

MR. PECHT: Who is speaking?

MR. MALDARI: Frank Maldari. 2.16 is clear, it

is a room number, I think the toilet room, designation

of toilet room would apply to, correct?

MR. PECHT: Right.

MR. MALDARI: Those are the two that come to

mind. The ones I'm thinking of is means of egress.

Any exit sign?

MR. PECHT: At the door that would designate a

permanent room or space.

MR. MALDARI: But it has to be at the door?

MR. PECHT: Yes, the ones at the hallway with

arrows are informational and directional signs.

MS. MAZZ: I refer you to 216.4.

MR. MALDARI: I'm looking at that now.

MS. MAZZ: These terms have meaning in a

building. They may not have the same meaning on a

vehicle, but basically these are the signs at the exit

points. They are not the directional signs.

MR. MALDARI: Okay. So if there is a sign near a

door that tells you how to open -- release the

emergency door, is that something that this applies to

or not?

MS. MAZZ: This would not apply to the raised

letter and braille requirements to that type of sign.
12

These are the designations, essentially.

So, in other words, it's the sign that says "this

is an exit door."

MR. MALDARI: Okay.

MS. MAZZ: Obviously -- and there is sort of an

art to deciding what is a sign and what is just a

label.

MR. MALDARI: Right.

MS. MAZZ: And in some cases you will find labels

on all sorts of things. And typically we don't regard

those as signs subject to 216 in a building. But you

may in a vehicle want to apply some of the signage

criteria to certain labels if you think they are

important for people to know about.

MR. MALDARI: Okay. I'm just trying to be clear

exactly what we need. I know -- well, there is no

room number on a car, but the toilet room is like one

of the ones I'm clear about. And if there was an exit

door sign on one of the doors, that is one of the ones

that applies, right?

MR. PECHT: In a building. You may choose to do

something different in rail car. If you had a sign

that says "in an emergency please follow direction of

train staff," that would be an informational sign.

That would not necessarily be raised in braille,
13

because in the building world, because it is just an

informational sign. It doesn't give you a designation

of a space. It just tells you what to do in a space.

MR. HOFF: I think the signs in the building only

are required when there are signs to each room. In

other words, if the building is so simple that you

don't require signs at the entry doors, then you also

don't require the room designation signs. Is that not

correct?

MR. PECHT: I'm sorry. We had a slight debacle

here. Can you repeat the last part of your question.

MR. HOFF: Yes. In the scoping the rooms

designation sign is only required to be accessible if

there are room designation signs. So if you have a

simple building with no room designation, you are not

requiring accessible room designation signs?

MR. PECHT: Yeah. The ADA as far as the

buildings are concerned don't require --

MR. HOFF: I'm speaking to Marsha's point. We

may want to do something different in vehicles. I

think it is a valid point to point out in simple

situations -- and I think a rail vehicle is probably

that case. And I realize we will get to that in a

second phone call. To Frank's point I think I know

what he is asking. When things are simple you don't
14

really need room designation signs. The exit signs

are simply for egress on the rail vehicle as opposed

to room designation signs.

MS. MAZZ: Although most people think that the

entrance you enter into a building is always a

required exit, that is often not the case. And I

don't know vehicles well enough to tell you that, you

know, the way into the vehicle is always a required

exit. I guess it is. But you also may have other

types of exits like operable windows and the like, or

hatches, who knows. I don't know.

In any case the reason that the exits have to be

identified in a building is there are so many doors

that lead you nowhere or won't provide you protection.

I don't know if that is similar on a train. I am

guessing not.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Going back a number of years we

adopted as many things --

<<<: Can you hear me?

<<<: Hello?

MS. MAZZ: We hear you.

MR. SLAUGHTER: So designated exit signs again so

people don't try to go into the wrong spaces, we do

and in some cases we will have electrical lockers, or

things that are obviously doors that might be
15

confusing, labeled with raised letters and braille.

Now, we designate sleeping car room numbers,

which is we designate seat numbers as well. Again, we

were thinking about it from the terms of when someone

leaves their seat and goes to the restroom, we want

them to have the best opportunity to get back to the

seat they were in, especially in a reserved train

where that is their seat for the duration of the trip.

So I think we may have at Amtrak, we may have

gone a little further than anticipated. But we try to

look at what signs we apply the tactile letters and

braille to based on just being sort of common sense

for what someone will need to function within the

train.

So hopefully we get to discuss that in the next

more thoroughly.

MS. GOLDEN: I mean, any facility has that as

some sort of irrelevant doorways and others that are

needed by users of the facility.

MS. MAZZ: In order to help people get a little

bit oriented, Jim has mentioned the difference between

the scoping and the technical sections and how you

apply the technical sections through the scoping.

One of the things I wanted to mention to you is

that the excerpt from the ICC ANSI contains Section
16

703, note the numbering is the same as the ADA

standards and that is because we are working so

closely with them, but the provisions are not

identical. So you will have to read through them

closely.

And one of the main reasons we gave you Section

703 from ICC ANSI is that ANSI standard now contains

provisions for variable message signs. Variable

message signs are not currently addressed in the ADA

standards. And we thought that you might want to take

a look at those requirements for VMS signs because we

think that they are likely to be used in vehicles and

in trains, generally. And maybe this is an

opportunity to apply those criteria in vehicles.

MS. HAMLIN: Can I ask when you say variable

message signs, and I did see that, are we talking

electronic signs or something else?

MS. MAZZ: We are. We are talking about the

signs that are like the signs you see in Metro when

the next bus or next train is arriving. They move.

There is motion to them. They are not static,

usually.

MS. HAMLIN: I thought so. I just wanted to be

double sure that that is what we are talking about

here.
17

MR. PECHT: One thing that didn't get to you from

the ANSI, the ANSI added to definitions in their

definition section that did not get sent to you with

regard to the signage and I will read it to you

quickly. "Variable message signs or VMS are

electronic signs that have a message with the capacity

to change by means of scrolling streaming or paging

behind a background." And the second definition is,

"Variable message signs, VMS characters, characters of

an electronic sign that is composed of pictures in

array and high resolution. VMS characters have

variable pictures counts of 16 or great. Low

resolution have a variable picture count of 7 to 15

rows." That is the definition added to go along with

their technical requirements in 703 with variable

message signs.

MS. MAZZ: And we can send those to you.

MS. HAMLIN: Thank you. That would be great. I

appreciate that.

MR. PECHT: I just want to add one thing about

signs in general. The ADA really -- it is very rare

that the ADA actually requires a sign. Usually signs

are required by other things, by emergency egress or

just a desire to make the building more

comprehensible. But technically the ADA does not come
18

in until you -- say, when you provide a sign, you know

you have to provide a sign in a certain format.

In other words, if you are providing information,

certain information has to be accessible to certain

people. Sort of the discrimination issue with the

ADA.

In other words, in a building if you have a

janitor's college and you don't want to tell people it

is a janitor's closet and you can keep the door

locked, you don't have to put a sign up for it. That

is perfectly acceptable.

MS. MAZZ: Under the ADA.

MR. PECHT: Under the ADA.

You guys will think about what kind of

information you want provided in what format and that

is the kind of thing you need to look at with regard

to the fixed part of the train.

MS. MAZZ: And now that Terry Pacheco has joined,

I would suggest you also look at the exceptions to

216, because I know Terry in a meeting previously

mentioned things like menus at the cafe car. In the

ADA standard menus are expressly exempt. So if you

look at the exceptions to 216, generally as well as

the exceptions to 216.2, 216.3. So, again, you now,

as you begin to look at this, you may want to ask why
19

menus were exempt from the requirements for raised

letter and braille, for example.

MR. MICHEL: I just had a basic question. If all

signs are supposed to somewhat be accessible based on

the nondiscriminatory aspect of being able to have

access to or grant access to the most amount of

people, you know, where do we or where do we draw the

line -- do we need to allow for a light switch to have

braille or is that up to the rail authority to decide

if they want to comply with that?

MS. MAZZ: Currently there is no requirement in

the ADA standards to provide any kind of sign at a

light switch.

MR. MICHEL: Okay.

MS. MAZZ: If you did provide one that said,

"Hey, this is your light switch," that would be, you

know an informational sign, I think, at best or "flip

up to turn on lights."

MR. MICHEL: Isn't the whole point of a sign to

give you information in the first place. So where is

the line when providing fully accessible signage?

MS. MAZZ: I think that is something that your

committee wants to talk about. We can tell you where

that line gets drawn in buildings, but that doesn't

mean you have to respect that for the train. You can
20

do something different.

MR. MICHEL: I agree with that.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I think the difference with a

train going from a building, there is a certain

expectation for things being in certain places and

that is almost always the case. When you open the

door you expect the light switch to be just inside the

door. Quite often with the train, because of the

spacial situation and the restrictions of where things

can be, items are not always where you would expect

them to be based on the building.

I think that is something we have to consider and

I think the authorities have to be given some leeway

on how we handle that.

I think there needs to be guidance, but,

obviously, when we start talking about sleeping cars

and things like that, right now those kind of things

really only effect Amtrak or a few private operators.

We are willing to listen.

As I said before, we have done, you know, a lot

of -- made a lot of effort to make signs accessible

beyond what the requirements are because the

requirements are, quite honestly, rather pitiful, I

think.

But, anyway, we will discuss that more on the
21

second call for sure.

Where I get more concerned is when we look at the

architectural requirements, the technical requirements

versus the scoping where we require -- we have icons

in an attempt to kind of communicate to people who are

not reading in English but are used to seeing icons in

other parts of the world.

We have an icon but we can't have that icon as

large as required by the architectural side because we

just don't have the space. But we can have raised

letter and braille in the same space. So we have to

decide how to handle that going forward.

MS. MAZZ: So that is a good one to sort of focus

on as an example of something that is required in

standards.

Right now the ADA standards say if you use a

pictogram to designate a permanent room or space, then

you have to have raised letters in braille that

translate the meaning of that pictogram. You don't

have to raise the pictogram because the research that

we had access to has indicated that people who are

blind have significant difficulty getting the meaning

of a picture tactilely.

You do, for example, at the women's room if you

just label it with the international symbol of women,
22

you do have to have the equivalent below that says in

raised letters and in braille" women."

The question -- and there is a requirement for

the size of the visual image of that glyph in terms of

its background. You have to have a six-inch vertical

background for that glyph. That is not the raised

letter requirement. That is the visual component.

So a good question would be, for the purpose of

rail where you are using a lot of different icons: Is

it as necessary to have that glyph be large enough for

someone with low vision to read if you provide the

raised letters and the braille equivalents?

MR. BEATTY: Maybe some icons are not required to

meet the requirements.

MS. MAZZ: So that is a question for you to ask

yourselves. I'm not taking a position. I'll just

suggesting that is a question for you all to consider.

MR. BEATTY: That requirement does not apply to

all icons. They need to know that.

MS. MAZZ: As Paul is pointing out, that

requirement only applies where you use the icon to

name the space, to designate the space. You can use

an icon or a pictogram such as a no smoking pictogram.

That is information about the rules of conduct in the

space; it's not the name of the space. This is not
23

the no smoking room. Not the name of the space. It

is not required to have raised letters in braille and

it is not required to have the minimum six inch field

behind the glyph.

MR. SLAUGHTER: That is the way I interpreted the

technical requirements. I think there may be

situations, again, in the effort to communicate to the

broadest number of people possible, we are using

icons. But we are using them on a scale that doesn't

match the technical requirements for the icons, but

would work for someone maybe who is not speaking

English, who cannot even read the sign with good

vision. So, again, I think we will need to work

through that to come to the best place.

Because I would hate for us to be in a situation

where we don't provide an icon because we don't have

the space to provide it with the six inch field.

MR. BEATTY: Blair, can you give us an example of

an icon you are thinking of?

MR. SLAUGHTER: With the restroom designation

where you have the male or female, we actually have an

icon -- because it is a unisex restroom, where there

is both, the sign itself can get quite large for the

door or for the door post or wherever the sign is

going.
24

The same may be true for a room designation in a

sleeping compartment where we may have an icon and a

number, but there is no room to make that icon as big

as is required. So we might look at it and go, "Well,

if we have to have an icon for a certain size just

because we provided it, maybe we don't provide the

icon." That seems like a disservice generally across

the broader population to do that.

MR. BEATTY: We can continue that part of the

discussion at the next call. It is important for us

to take your questions as it relates to if "I use the

ADAAG provisions do I understand what the outcome

would be?" And then later you can evaluate whether

the outcome is appropriate.

So anymore questions regarding use of ADAAG or

the variable signage requirements from ANSI?

MS. PACHECO: I just have a quick question.

Again on this issue of the icons, where would we tie

in, for instance, if they were using an icon on a

touch pad? I'm thinking, you know, the reading lamp

over your seat, especially on planes today, could be

on trains next year. There are a group of things and

they are only usable by touch pad. Those are very

small icons. You are looking at, what, an inch or

inch half squared? What do we do for those? Is there
25

a requirement in the ADAAG for those?

MS. MAZZ: There is currently not a requirement

in the ADAAG for those. The ADAAG only addresses

those signs that identify permanent rooms and spaces

for the braille and raise letter characters and other

signs have visual characteristics. And this is

where -- I don't know, Terry, if you were on the line,

but this is where the distinction between labels and

signs may be getting made.

You know, you put an icon on the light switch, I

think of that more as a label than a sign, largely the

types of signs that are addressed in the ADA

standards.

But you may want to extend some requirements to

those labels for rail vehicles. And that might make

some sense. Or you might want to develop some

different kinds of criteria, given how little real

estate there is next to those switches above your head

typically on an airplane, but I do think they have

them on trains as well. Maybe you want some other way

to communicate which switch you push for what

function. And maybe it doesn't have to be visual.

Maybe it can be tactile. Maybe there can be some

other way to do that.

I know I myself when I get on an airplane I'm
26

very reluctant to turn on the light because I

typically wind up calling the flight attendant.

MS. PACHECO: So do I.

MS. MAZZ: And then I can't turn the thing off.

MS. HAMLIN: I didn't see definitions for labels

and signs and so forth. Is that somewhere in the

documents you sent us?

MS. MAZZ: No.

MS. HAMLIN: Can we get a definition?

MS. MAZZ: Well, it is what it is. We look at

signs in the broadest -- in the broader sense. And we

specifically tell you that there are essentially two

classes of signs: There is the signs that designate

permanent rooms and spaces and then there are the

signs that provide information about -- directions to

or information about rooms and spaces.

So a label on a light switch doesn't do either of

those things.

MR. PECHT: And as far as the definition is

concerned, basically if there is something in the

documents that is not specifically defined in either

definition section or in one of the reference

standards, we default to the collegiate dictionary

definition for that term.

MS. HAMLIN: Okay. Thank you.
27

<<<: John, Amtrak. I don't know if this is the

right call to ask the question. I had questions about

requirements for safety seat back cards with braille

requirements.

MR. PECHT: Could you explain to me what that is.

<<<: I don't know if you are familiar with any

of the Amtrak safety seat back cards, but we do have a

lot of information on most of our cards. And we are

looking to have every card have a braille option when

needed, but I'm not sure what exactly is required.

MR. PECHT: That is something we would require in

the guidelines. It is a moveable piece of equipment

or furniture or something like that, which the

guidelines and standards really don't cover. They

cover things that are bolted to the train, part of the

train, affixed to the train in some way, not a piece

of paper that you put in a seat back. That would be

something that might be covered by the DOT regulations

as far as general --

MS. MAZZ: The general requirements for effective

communication.

MR. PECHT: Correct. But not as far as what we

are talking about. We are talking about you take a

sign and you stick it on the wall, that is where it

will stay. It is going to be a permanent sign on the
28

wall.

<<<: Okay.

MR. PECHT: I just want to point out when you

start talking about requirements for tactile letters

and braille, what needs to go along with that is a

consistent location so it can be found.

If you are going to put a sign, let's say, for a

fire extinguisher 10" off the ground, nobody who is

blind is looking for 10" off for a sign.

There is either a need if you want something like

that to sort of have a location where you can find out

where certain things are found in the train that is

consistent or you want to tie it to something like a

seat or a door or something that that is where it is

going to be always, every time you go in every train.

MR. SLAUGHTER: That brings up a very good point,

even with emergency exit signs. We start to overlap

with some of the APDA recommended practices for sign

placement for things like exits. And in some of those

cases there is a requirement for low level path

marking and way finding elements that are very close

to the floor based on the expectation you may have a

car filling with smoke and people would be down at

that level and need that information.

And in those cases, we do provide exit signs with
29

raised letter and braille. Except in this case the

raised letter is to the scale that is pushed by APDA,

which is large, it is pretty darn big.

MS. MAZZ: Typically there is not a problem with

larger raised letter. It is when you try to make them

smaller they become unreadable by folks who read

raised letters.

MR. SLAUGHTER: And that is something from a

guidance standpoint I think would be very helpful. If

you look at diminishing -- let me think of the word.

A diminishing need for the information from a clarity

standpoint. Is there room for lettering to be smaller

than the minimum, which the smallest I have seen is

half inch.

I heard discussion in the past about 3/8, but you

start to get into the realm it is not understandable,

it is not readable by someone who is reading it

tactilely. I'm not sure there is any room for

discussion as it relates to trains, again, because of

the space limitation the trains have. Or if we say if

it is a tactile letter it will be the minimum that is

already defined because that works and anything

smaller doesn't.

MS. MAZZ: In the first meeting that we had, I

seriously cautioned you against setting different
30

standards for the same thing in two different

documents.

I will reiterate that you would have to have very

compelling reasons for a lesser standard in this

document or departing from the technical criteria.

And those compelling reasons would have to be based on

the specific needs of the vehicle or the specific

characteristics of the vehicle. And you would also

want to know that you will achieve a meaningful

result.

So if you, for example, shrink the raised letters

down significantly or even some, we would want to know

that they are, in fact, usable by people with vision

impairments.

MR. SLAUGHTER: That makes perfect sense. Going

back to what John from Amtrak mentioned about the

information and safety cards, again looking at the

special differences in trains and just the real estate

that is available for signs that would be

appropriately sized, there may be some elements that

are -- some level of information. Because, again, a

train is a different environment than a building and

in a building there are certain expectations of where

things are and they almost are always in those places.

Once someone is familiar with the train, then it
31

is quite common. You know, you sort of think, well,

in a train this device is going to generally be in

space.

But for the sake of familiarization and

communicating that to folks, I think there is room --

we discussed it internally in the past of relying on,

in some cases, braille information cards that help

people orient themselves and understand where things

are generally in the room and all the other things we

communicate for people just traveling on the train so

that they get all the same information as everyone

else would get in a card that would be visually

readable.

And I realize that -- again, I will go back to

Chris Hart's definition. We are only talking about

the things if you take the car and open the door and

shake it, everything that falls out is not part of

this committee. But to a point, there has to be some

link so we make sure at the end of the day we do get

all the information to people one way or the other.

MS. MAZZ: If you take a look at that scoping

provision in 216, you note that, for example, menus,

seat row designations and assembly spaces and things

like that are expressly exempt from these

requirements.
32

These may be things you may want to scope or you

may want to scope them to some other kind of standard,

once we haven't contemplated yet.

I just put that on the table because I know that

menu was already an issue that was brought forward by

one of the committee members. Seat row designations,

for example, you know, as you said, if you have a

reserved seat, you want to be able to get back to that

seat, largely if you left your coat in there.

So you may want to take a look at what is covered

and what is not covered by the ADA standards and see

how that marries up to what you want to cover in some

way in trains. I think starting with scoping is a

good way to proceed.

What do we want to cover, what do we want to give

people access to and, then, secondarily, how do we do

it. In some cases you may be borrowing from the sign

standards in the ADA or the sign requirements in ANSI

A.117 or you may have another way of communicating the

information that is not currently contemplated in the

ADA standards.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I think from Amtrak's point of

view, we would be most interested from the community's

viewpoint what information is most needed. And I

think we will find in some cases we already have taken
33

steps to provide that information. There will be

other places where we will have to figure out how to

do that.

So I would be very interested to hear what the

community versus the railroads thinks need to be out

there.

MS. MAZZ: Maybe that is a homework assignment

for everybody, is to go back and develop a list of

those things that you want -- you believe should be

covered in some way.

For the moment I would urge you to put aside

whether or not you think you can meet the technical

requirements in the ADA. But those bits of

information that you think should, in fact, be

conveyed to people who don't see or who have low

vision and then come back and see how those lists

dovetail each other.

Does that sound like something you could do for

the next meeting?

<<<: Absolutely.

MR. HOFF: I would like to take a second just to

draw on some examples of people -- customers who have

expressed interest in knowing information that is only

available visually. For instance -- I know people

have talked about this before -- the emergency
34

evacuation windows, for instance, or how to manually

open the doors in case of an emergency. That

operationally you saw obviously is not something that

we could possibly provide because of the amount of

information that is provided in print form. There is

not enough space to provide it in raised letter

braille.

But perhaps we can look to provide that

information another way. I think it is -- obviously

if we are putting information on the vehicles, on the

signs and it is a lot of information, we think it is

important enough that everybody should know it.

Obviously with the reduced real estate that we have on

board, we should be looking for other means to provide

that information.

I am sorry I am not providing any solutions at

this point. I am just saying the reality is we don't

have a lot of real estate to provide raised letter

braille sign that could be very important information.

If it is important enough for us to put it up there,

it is important for everybody to know it.

So we should look for other means to provide that

information and then concentrate on the areas, if it

is simple enough information, that we want everybody

to know, then we find the real estate to provide that.
35

The more complicated stuff, I think we should

just push it aside for a second. Like I said, how to

manually open a closed door in an emergency, that is

like two or three paragraphs. That is not going to

happen. We should look -- I don't think this is the

forum to do it -- look for other ways to provide the

information for the vehicle. That may be the solution

and we may have to come up with new technologies that

are available on board.

I want to make the point if it is important

enough for people to see visually, it is important

enough for people to get that information as well.

MS. MAZZ: You may have other signs that gives

you a warning, for example, "don't do this."

MR. HOFF: Exactly. We have pretty important

information about how the conductors are pretty much

the captains of the ships and there are laws

protecting them and there they have rights to do

certain things. We find it important and we put it on

every rail car. But it is only visually. Maybe we

can provide that information through some other means

somehow on the vehicle, but maybe through some other

technology. But it is not something we can say, "All

right, we will do raised letter braille on that sign

too." We should keep that in the back of our minds to
36

provide that information. Because if we think it is

important enough to put it up visually, it is

important for everybody.

MR. SLAUGHTER: That is an excellent point. I

think as we move down the path here there are

opportunities for those of us on the railroad side to

somehow have some consolidation. Largely those who

operate in the same general area, so in some cases

where we can have common messages we can benefit by

sharing that information back and forth so we are

telling passengers in the same way across, regardless

of how we do that.

One thing we have -- I was just thinking of an

example of a door. It is pretty obvious when you

touch the door handle or you see the door how to

operate that door. We don't give instructions on how

to operate the door, but we do give a warning not to

open that door unless it is an emergency or by a

member of a crew.

So -- and that message is given in both -- just

visual and raised letter and braille because it is

critical.

MS. MAZZ: In the end, Blair, I hear you say it

is possible if the committee decides some information

is just not going to be effectively conveyed using a
37

permanent installation of something on the train, that

they could have a recommendation to your office that

that information is important and should be somehow

conveyed?

MR. SLAUGHTER: Yes. And I say that with respect

to the Access Board who has given a direction on what

our scope is here in the committee. But, yeah, if it

just doesn't make practical sense to be a part of the

card, I think the railroads -- we still need have some

way of (inaudible) pieces together.

MR. MALDARI: To follow through with what they do

for buildings, the signs that are in braille and

raised lettering are the ones we know where they are

going to be. So you really need -- if you are going

to make a sign in braille, you really have to know

where it is so you can find it.

MS. MAZZ: Right.

MR. MALDARI: There are decals all over the place

and the only way you know where they are is by seeing

them. You have to be careful.

Yes, there is a lot of information out there,

unfortunately it is really for the people who can see,

otherwise they won't know how to find it. And opening

a door, well, you know, one thing that concerns me is

if you have fairly good sight you can see through the
38

door window and make sure you are not getting yourself

in a hazardous condition, if you do open a door in an

emergency condition. But there may be some bad points

to that.

The other thing that I wanted to get clear was

currently now in the regulations that we are talking

about for the buildings, if you provide a sign in

raised lettering that is not required to be in raised

lettering or braille, can it be in one or the other or

is there some requirement that whenever you have

raised lettering you must have braille?

MS. MAZZ: The requirement is when you are

required to have a tactile sign, that tactile sign

must have both raised lettering and braille. But if

you are not required to have a tactile sign, it would

be my view you could do whatever you want, provided

that you comply with the requirements for visual

signs, if they apply.

MR. MALDARI: Right. That make sense. Like

Blair was saying before, if you only have so much

space, maybe you can put one or the other. And if you

are not tied into putting both because it is a

regulation to have it, then you have the opportunity

to provide the information in another means without

making a decal that is too big to fit in the space
39

that you have.

MR. WIESMAN: Can you hear me? Good. I was in

Japan 20 years ago and I noticed at the top of the

staircases on the subway on the handrail they have

braille and everybody knows to look at it. Even

though it is not downstairs even. And there is all

kinds of signage for people who can see. All the

information they try to get into that tactile thing on

the handrail at the top of the stairs -- and maybe

there -- when we are creating a new standard, maybe we

could have a location on a train where information

that is available to sighted people could all be in

one place about evacuation and things like that,

things you really want to get the message across. And

people would just know you look in this place because

that would become the practice, which is what

happened, they told us, in Japan.

MS. MAZZ: Except when they push on those stairs

I don't think you have a whole lot of time to read.

<<<: Good point.

<<<: Other than that, though, it is a great

idea.

<<<: Maybe put it at the bottom of the stairs.

MS. MAZZ: Actually, Coco Reign in Boston

developed a system she puts the braille essentially
40

upside down on the underside of a handrail. As people

go through a museum or some other site, they read the

braille as they go along. It is pretty cool.

MR. WETHERELL: I would think if we do something

on a subway, I like the idea of having a location. If

there are evacuation or emergency instructions, I

would be a proponent for it being in the same

location.

MS. MAZZ: Makes sense.

So it looks like a variety of different types of

things that can get communicated. You have warnings,

you have rules of conduct, you have operational

instructions, you have way finding information, such

as exit and maybe seat and row, and you have

information that you convey visually through things

like menus and other types of signs, if you will.

Can we try and organize that a bit? I think

maybe your issues list provides some of that

organization, doesn't it, Paul?

MR. BEATTY: Some.

MS. MAZZ: Yeah.

MR. PECHT: Actually that is what I was going to

add as part of your homework assignment. In addition

to listing the kind of information you want put out on

a train, try to categorize it into what type of sign.
41

If it is something you want to cover or not.

In other words, maybe designs that are

specifically geared toward train personnel can be

exempt. In other words, this is a hatchway to the

hydraulic system. The passengers don't need to worry

about that.

Or Marsha talked about labels. Do you want to

cover labels? Do you not want to cover label? Do you

want to define what a label is? Those kinds of

things. If you want to think about categorizing the

different type of sign and how you want them put out.

MS. MAZZ: I don't think that UL label on the

fire extinguisher has to be raised letter in braille.

But if you have operating instructions on the fire

extinguisher, there might be a necessity to convey how

to operate the fire extinguisher to someone who

doesn't see.

MS. HAMLIN: We also take in the consideration

the variable message signs we were talking about

earlier. That could be used in multiple situations.

So we should maybe consider that as well.

MS. MAZZ: I will point out that VMS criteria is

only visual criteria. It is for people who have low

vision. There is nothing in the VMS criteria that

conveys that information tactilely or audibly for
42

people who do not see at all.

So it is an -- it is the electronic equivalent to

the visual signs criteria in 703.

MR. HOFF: And it is something that we should

consider. I think we talked about considering that,

obviously, is the converse of providing visual

equivalence to the audible announcement is the

converse of that, providing the audible announcement

as the equivalent to the visual.

So where we can, where we think it is important

enough to make an audible announcement, we should do

that, obviously. We are talking about something

different than the visual signs that are on decals all

throughout our vehicles. But certainly any type of

announcement -- I'm sorry. Any type of visual

announcement obviously should be broadcast audibly. I

don't think that is a big deal. That is not currently

written, as I understand it, in the ADAAG, but maybe

it should be.

MS. MAZZ: You're right. And, you know, to the

extent that there is also an underlying requirement

for effective communication, I think that, you know,

we have had to rely on that for the converse.

MR. HOFF: And certainly we understand that

because the public address systems, the audible
43

announcements have been around forever. We have had

flip-flop for some time, but certainly nothing like we

have today with the visual equivalent to the public

address system. That is why that was a regulation,

obviously, that it was always assumed we had a public

address, an audible announcement for everything. But

now we are getting -- the visuals are so prevalent in

providing such other messages, that I think we need

the converse. So at least in the vehicle aspect we

should consider doing that, you know, explicitly

saying we provide the audible equipment to the visual

signs as well.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Along with that our conductors in

giving their audible message will refer people to the

seat back instruction card that is specific to the

vehicle they are in, because it goes into more detail

about what to do in emergencies. And post 09/11 there

is information that our security folks have added and

sort of heaped upon the card so it does more than it

was originally intended to.

And that is information, again, that may not be

practical at all to try to put in a central location.

To give you some background, at one time we had

the emergency exit instructions for our cars occur

typically in one or two places in the car at each end.
44

What we saw the folks who sat close to the sign,

within a few rows, actually read the sign and everyone

else didn't.

That was part of what drove us to the seat back

information card, similar what you find on an

airliner. That may not be practical for a lot of

transit agencies because the things would probably

walk like they have legs.

When we start looking at this information, again,

we have to make sure that we -- there is some

obviously could be at central locations and others

that need to be distributed. So, again, we get as

much appropriate information and critical information

to everyone that is on the train.

<<<: Just build off of that as far as

brainstorming goes, I like it is decentralized. In

some cases it depends on the situation, perhaps or the

ability to provide real estate to provide the sign.

More like what if we had a phone jack nearby or at

every seat there was a phone jack and you can plug in

your dollar store ear plugs and scroll through some of

the information provided. Or make it a performance

standard; if you don't have phone jacks available,

that the crew member is available to at least give you

the menu of things that are posted up. And if you
45

needed more information, happy to describe those

things for you. Just a couple of things that we can

probably do to make sure everybody gets that

information.

MR. SLAUGHTER: I know everyone has seen the

greeting card that you open up and it sings or does

something. We actually had cards that were

prerecorded and told you everything that was in the

visual passenger safety card. Read off all that

information and it was in a controlled common voice.

And that was -- the problem with that is can someone

hear that over all the noise in a train. But that was

before everyone had, you know, earbuds to carry along

with them.

MS. MAZZ: Have we exhausted ourselves?

Does anyone have any specific questions about the

scoping or technical criteria that is in the ADA

standards?

<<<: Are we going to talk about the variable

message signs and the ICC standard?

MS. MAZZ: Sure, if you want to.

<<<: Can we just briefly go over what is in the

ICC standard? Even though I looked through it. It is

fairly new to me. My biggest concern is making

sure -- we brought this up in one of our issues list
46

to make sure that we can or that we do provide the

information in the most legible, readable formats

possible, given the new technologies that are

available to us. Well, before the original ADAAG was

written, signs were your basic LED compaction rate.

Was very widely spaced and the angle you see it is

small.

I would like to know more what the regulation

state as the technical criteria in stroke width to

height ratio and whether or not it addresses certain

technologies over others.

MS. MAZZ: The provisions of the ANSI standard up

to Section 703.7 are very, very similar to the ADA

standards.

We only provided them because Section 703.7,

variable message signs, refers back to some of those

sections, or at least is based on some of those

sections.

Basically what the variable message section does

is it divides variable message signs into high

resolution and low resolution signs. Doesn't tell you

that you have to provide one or the other. It just

simply divides them into two different groups and then

applies different technical criteria to those two

groups of signs. Because the high resolution signs
47

can, obviously, perform better than the low resolution

signs overall.

There are some -- and all of those technical

criteria basically take you back to the requirements

in the standards for case and style and character

height and the like.

There is also in here -- and I'm trying to find

it as I talk. There is a requirement, I think, some

requirements applicable to the protective covering on

those kinds of signs, the brightness, which is not a

term used on regular signs. And then rate of change,

which essentially means, you know, how quickly it

moves or scrolls. Those are unique to the VMS

criteria.

Is there something else you want to add there,

Jim?

MR. PECHT: I mean the ANSI committee, like

Marsha was saying. They look at high resolution

signs, which is what you find in like a plasma

television or something like that.

And assume that those were of such high

resolution that they can be equivalent to the print

size in 703 and that is what they require. When it

gets to the low resolution where they talk about the

height being square from 7 to 16 pixels and
48

specifically with regard to stroke width and, like

Marsha says, other information with regard to

protective covering and the scrolling.

MS. MAZZ: Glenn, do you know whether the signs

in Metro here in Washington are high res or low res

signs?

MR. PECHT: They are low res.

MR. MILLIS: I'm not going to disagree with him

because I don't know the answer to that. I'm not the

sign expert at Metro.

<<<: One of the things we should probably

consider is whether or not we are going to in the

scoping provisions require high res or low res

depending on the type of signs or whether everything

should be high res. Those are some of the things we

should think about, you think?

MS. MAZZ: You have many options. One might be

to simply say, "If you provide a variable message sign

it has to conform to these requirements." Start with

that. Because right now there is nothing in the ADA

standards that specifically applies to those types of

signs because they were not used at the time the ADA

standards were originally written. At least that.

You might also want to think about where you

think it is appropriate to encourage the use. Not
49

necessarily require the use of variable message signs,

but they are going to be used. They are already used,

to some degree, on buses --

MR. SLAUGHTER: (Static Noise) This is not really

signage, but it could be in most cases it is a monitor

you can pull up all kinds of information on. But I

guess it could be signs as well.

MS. MAZZ: On buses, for example, your stop

request sign is very often a variable message sign.

On rail cars here in Washington, you have a variable

message sign that tells you, I think, whether it is a

green, red, orange or blue train. I don't know it

tells you much else at the moment.

MS. HAMLIN: Those signs are supposed to tell you

what station stop and what side of the car to get off

on. They don't use them. It is capable of that but

it is not being used. In New York they have variable

message signs on New York City subways which tells you

what station you are in and where you are going and

where you came from. So there are all kinds of

possibilities for rail cards.

MR. MILLIS: I'm not sure that is correct but I

can check on that and get back to the committee.

MS. HAMLIN: I'm sorry. Which part is not

correct?
50

MR. MILLIS: Are we talking about the signs on

the side and inside the cars?

<<<: Both.

MS. MAZZ: Inside the car.

<<<: Oh, inside the cars. Thank you.

MR. CAPON: I have seen the station indicators

working on Metro. I don't recall seeing indication of

what side to get off on. Interior, some of the cars

do work.

MR. WETHERELL: Sorry. I had to step out. Are

we talking about indicating what side the doors will

open on?

<<<: The information we present in our subway

cars. I know there are some countries that do -- I

think Japan is one of them that indicate what side the

doors are going to open on.

Basically what we do when we are doing a car

design, we look at what the needs of our particular

passengers are. You know, with our passengers, as far

as their needs. We have never come up with the fact

that they needed to know what sides the doors are

going to be opening on.

Now, obviously, if somebody is riding and they

are unable themselves to tell which side it is on, I

can see that being an issue. But we do have lights
51

that indicate what doors are opening.

Obviously, somebody with vision -- somebody that

is disabled and -- I don't know if we ever had a

problem with it. It is certain something we can

certain look into.

MR. MILLIS: On our trains we do have lights that

light up. And people can also see the door opening

and the train operators do announce the name of the

station and the door opening on the left and right

side.

MS. HAMLIN: When I have ridden, rode -- my

English is not working right now. But when I have

been on the Metro and the signs do work what it will

say is "the station is Metro Center." Then there are

little arrows pointing on which side of the car you

should get off on. I don't know if that is absolutely

necessary. Because it shows up before you get to the

station stop, I find it really helpful, you know. It

is just nice to know if I have to go through a lot of

people, which side of the car I need to get to.

One thing I also found about Metro, when you look

out the window, it is really dark and you can't see.

Somebody with a hearing loss, like myself, sees a

visual sign like that. I'm thrilled. I'm really

happy. I not only know which stop I'm in, I know
52

which side to exit, and I don't have to look out the

dim windows before I get there.

MS. MAZZ: That information is useful to people

who don't see well or don't see at all because with

very few exceptions, the side of the car that the

doors open on relates to whether or not you are

exiting on to a side island platform or a center

island platform. And that is pretty critical

information for someone who doesn't see well.

<<<: This is Josh at Talgo. I don't think there

is any technical challenge here, the light rail system

in Dallas and Seattle have signs that indicate the

next station and what side to get off.

MR. SHIOTANI: I think the newer cars have the

capability. The older cars didn't have the technology

and the newest cars do have the technology and I

expect in Metro's newest, newest cars, which we will

have down the road, will have everything.

MR. MILLIS: That is very correct. One of the

things you don't see is the technology on our older

cars. We have it on the 6000 cars, unfortunately when

you marry a 6000 car with an older car, is there in

one place and not the other. The whole car needs to

be a 6000 car for it to work. So that is a detraction

from the system.
53

I don't disagree it is useful to have more

information telling you which side of the car the

doors are opening. What I am suggesting is that there

are signals and cues right now in the system, both

visual and audio, at least in our newer equipment to

tell you what side of the car the door is opening on.

MS. PACHECO: Unfortunately, especially with

Metro, while that is in place, it is not in place

audibly more than probably, I would estimate, I never

actually done numbers on it, not more than above

40 percent of the time in a manner in which people can

actually understand it, if it is being broadcast at

all by the drivers.

On most of -- on an awful lot, those messages are

not being done audibly or not being done well enough.

MR. MILLIS: I don't mean to be argumentative and

I am not. I have looked at our latest consumer

surveys. You are absolutely right. Sometimes it is

hard to hear things with car noise, train noise,

people noise and other announcements in the station

and whatnot. But our consumer surveys are telling us

people are hearing those announcements at least

90 percent of the time. That is a long ways to

100 percent. I understand what you're saying.

MS. PACHECO: The other issue it is more
54

noticeable to someone who is blind or has low vision

who can't see the station they are coming to or can't

read the signs in the station. Those are the onces

who are noticing it more than the average passenger.

MR. HOFF: This issue is very similar to bus

experience. The requirement was always there from day

one to provide on board announcements to help people

who cannot orient themselves by simply looking out the

window. This is similar to that, but probably less

critical. The performance standard now on buses or it

is in the new regulations yet to be adopted is to have

automated systems on board to do the announcements and

takes out the human factor. Usually what comes with

that is usually a better system when you do something

automatically and it is prerecorded, you don't have

some of the difficulties you have with making those

announcements manually each time with being too close

to the microphone, what have you.

Perhaps we have a requirement that the

announcements been made -- whatever announcements we

do have announcements that we think are critical that

we make them to be automated, very much like on the

bus side.

MS. PACHECO: I think that is something

definitely worth looking at.
55

MR. SLAUGHTER: It is really obvious when we

start talking about some of these things the critical

differences between some of the more mass transit

situations and what we would find in long haul trains.

Typically in overnight trains we will have at a

certain time of the evening the lights are turned

down, announcements, unless they are emergency

announcements, are not broadcast in the sleeping car,

in some cases even in the coaches because the car

attendant is supposed to make sure that they know

exactly where you are getting off. They have taken

care of that at the front end of the trip and they

will get you and make sure you get off at the right

place.

If that doesn't happen, we have what we call a

"carry-by". For any conductor or train person it is

really bad, because we have a really expensive cab

ride for that individual back home again. I just want

to make sure that we keep in mind that some of these

messages are very critical to certain operations and

maybe even within certain aspects of the Amtrak

operation, but in other areas like long haul trains,

long distance, overnight train, that may not be at all

appropriate because we have a system in place that

takes care of that, yet doesn't wake people up in the
56

middle of the night or wake up everyone in the middle

of the night.

MR. CAPON: Blair, I'm pretty sure the rule you

described for the sleeping car does apply across the

board for overnight coaches.

MR. SLAUGHTER: That is what I thought.

MS. HAMLIN: I think maybe we should think along

the lines it is not so much requiring that be provided

but when it is provided. For example, when it is

provided visually it should also be auditory, when it

is auditory it should also be visual when we are

talking about those messaging boards, electronic

messaging boards.

I don't know even if -- I don't know that we

could say that it should be required in every

situation or could we? Am I wrong about that?

MR. PECHT: That would be up to the committee to

pick and choose which messages they want to have in

what format.

I think that is part of the thing we want you to

go home and do homework about is sort of categorizing

what you think is really important and what you think

is sort of important, what you think maybe we don't

need to have that in a certain format.

Obviously stop announcements, upcoming stops are
57

important, obviously. Emergency communication --

evacuation communication are probably going to be

pretty high up on the list. A commercial for some

product, probably not. So those are the kind of

things you can look at.

Also we have given you the sort of background of

what is required in the buildings and the built

environment. You have to take that and say, "Okay, do

we apply that in the train environment or do we modify

it?"

In other words, for example, you have

requirements for variable message signs that character

height goes all the way up to over 4-inches but that

is when you have a horizontal viewing distance of

greater than 20 feet. So perhaps you would rather

have 2-inches as your maximum in which case you may

want to say these signs have to be provided so that

they are viewed from 10 feet. So that would require

more signs in the car, rather than one or two. Maybe

that would require three. That is something you can

decide to tinker with and sort of modify based on the

train environment.

MR. SLAUGHTER: From a scoping standpoint, I'm

curious how will we reconcile requirements of the FRA

for emergency evacuations and those kind of things,
58

Part 238 and 49 CFR, and also any recommended

practices in APNA against what we might think about in

this committee? Is there a plan in the Access Board

or between the Access Board and the FRA to try to

recognize those sort of things?

MR. BEATTY: We are hoping one of the benefits of

the Advisory Committee is you will identify signs that

are required by other types of regulations you are

subject to that we weren't even aware of.

And once we have a better idea of everything that

comes into play, we can make a decision on how or if

we get involved.

This is my opinion, but it is not necessarily the

staff's opinion here or the group. I think, in my

opinion, we need to sort of focus things down. We

have had a good discussion, but we were talking about

a lot of communication issue. I think we need to

start first with maybe answering two questions. If I

provide a fixed sign, regardless whether the sign is

something I personally want to put up or it is

required by some other regulation that you are subject

to. But if I provide a fixed sign, what does it have

to comply with in terms of character proportion,

character size and does that sign have to have some

sort of tactile.
59

So if I am Joe Smoh signage company and I have a

project for XYZ transit agency and they are hiring me

to put up signs, I know exactly what those signs have

to be.

Now, realizing there are issues that come that we

will have to address beyond that, if certain signs

can't be made to meet certain access requirements, do

I need to do something else. I suggest we cross that

bridge after we settle the issue about if I provide a

fixed sign, what does it need to comply with in terms

of using maybe a starting point the ADAAG technical

provisions --

MS. MAZZ: Absolutely using the ADAAG technical

provisions. Again, we don't want you to just make up

criteria. Those criteria have to have some basis and

have to be validated in some way. So start with the

ADAAG criteria.

If you, for some reason, feel the unique feature

of a train makes it impossible or difficult to comply

with those criteria, then you may want to look for

different ways of achieving the same goal, which may

be through some other means. It may be, for example,

to recommend that that information be included in some

kind of briefing. But that would not be part of the

standards. It would be a recommendation to DOT to
60

include requirements somewhere in their documents for

something that is not a fixed, built-in solution.

MR. SLAUGHTER: Along that that, I would like to

suggest, Paul, there are activities on trains or

transportation that are very different from buildings

because buildings don't move. I think we already

talked about that as part of the homework, if people

can come and bring specific items that need to be

addressed that the information needs to be there

because it is a train and not a building. It is a

different kind of information and a different

activity, then we can take that and say we have to

have a sign that describes this activity or warns

someone about this condition. Then we can take the

ADAAG requirements and put that sign into it and see

what it produces. And then if there is a problem we

can figure out how to solve the problem because the

sign is too big or whatever.

But, for me, from a provider standpoint, I'm

really looking at what people need or what people

perceive that they need to negotiate within the train

that may not be there today.

MR. BEATTY: I guess what I'm trying to do is get

us a little more focused at the second call. I think

that if we can evaluate certain signs using ADAAG
61

technical provisions and then decide what doesn't fit,

we don't necessarily have to come to a conclusion. We

just say this particular sign doesn't fit.

Now, we either have a good reason to modify how

ADAAG would apply or we later in a separate call

discuss, okay, this particular sign, yeah, under ADAAG

would require to meet these certain requirements but

we don't think it is a good fit therefore under

another call what are alternatives that could be

recommended to communicate the same information.

The same way in terms if you provide a variable

message sign, not so much what information needs to be

on the sign, but are you comfortable with the ICC and

co-council provisions that address variable message

signs? If you provide a variable message sign it is

it appropriate? Then we have a separate discussion on

what canned information needs to be broadcast on a

variable message sign. That is later.

Right now if you provide a variable message sign,

what does it have to comply with technically wise.

So would that help us boil down what we focus in

on the second call? I mean this is just a question to

you all and to my colleagues here. We are sort of

brainstorming how can we using conference calls

effectively to allow you to make real progress on
62

identifying issues.

And since we have to speak over the phone and use

CART, obviously there is some communication

difficulties for a lot of us. So I'm proposing

something that other people can counter-propose. We

have about 20 more minutes in the call.

Any comments to that?

MS. MAZZ: I think we already suggested that

people develop their own lists. And Jim further

suggested that they try and organize those lists

according to various types of signs. And Jim just

slipped me a note and said should we ask them to send

the list to us before the next call. That would be

very helpful because we can compile it and reorganize

it because whatever categories you put things into we

can homogenize them so they all fit in the appropriate

categories. Some people might use the term "warnings"

and somebody might use the term "notices" to mean the

same thing. But we can spend some time organizing

that for you and send it back out to before your next

call.

And I would suggest that you also look at your

issues list because it begins to do that in terms of

types of signs.

In terms of looking at the ADA requirements,
63

again, unless you have a basis for inventing new

requirements, you want to be careful about that. But

you may decide that the ADA requirements don't work

well for something. For example, someone has already

suggested, well, would it be okay to just do braille

or just do raised letters.

I think in some circumstances that may be

something that you want to contemplate, if real estate

is not available. But I think that would be a

preferable way to go over, well, we are going to play

with the size requirements on tactile letters, for

example, and let them go down to a quarter inch or a

half inch, since 5/8-inch is the reasonable size

deemed to be readable, unless you have a very good

reason going below that and you know it will work.

MR. BEATTY: When do we want the homework/input

provided to us? Thirteenth is our next call, which is

Thursday. So close of business Tuesday. So if you

can provide it to the RVAAC email address by close of

business Tuesday we hope to do something and send it

out to you. The latest would probably be the morning

of the conference call, which is the 13th.

MS. HAMLIN: I can imagine what an Amtrak car

looks like, but chances are I'm not going to be on one

between now and next Tuesday, although I might, but
64

you never know. And I know I could be on a Metro.

I'm happy to try to provide you a list and -- I

can do what I can and I would be willing to put in as

much information as I can. The other thing for me I'm

thinking what Marsha is saying and I have to believe

that people put a lot of thought into the size of how

these letters should be displayed. I have no

expertise in this area, none, zero, so I can't really

help you on that end and saying well it should be -- I

know the folks at Amtrak can say, "I have this much

space if you want it here."

I'm struggling with how I can be most helpful

here, I guess is what I'm saying.

MS. MAZZ: Lise, you can be helpful in imaging

the type of things that are visual on a train and

developing a list of what types of things you think

can be communicating to people with vision impairment

or hearing impairments, and if you can imagine any

types of exceptions to that rule.

For example, Jim suggested in there a sign

targeted strictly to employees. Maybe that sign

should and could be exempt from the requirements. You

may think about what types of communications you

typically miss now when you are on vehicles of any

kind. What do you suspect is not getting through and
65

ask yourself why. That might help.

MS. HAMLIN: I can do that. And I guess the

point is everybody takes it from their own perspective

and I might not get everything, but somebody else will

fill in the gaps that I don't see. So that is what we

are looking at.

MS. MAZZ: That is why we wanted to put it in one

compiled list.

MS. HAMLIN: Right.

MS. MAZZ: And try to give people an opportunity

to try and do that.

We have to take public comment before we break

and we only have 10 minutes left.

Can we do that now or does somebody have

something they want to say beforehand?

MR. BEATTY: I think when we are thinking of

public comment, for those not participating in the

committee who may be listening to this call, give you

an opportunity to speak, as opposed to those who have

been involved in the committee work and have been

attending the meetings.

So if there is anybody out there that meets that

criteria, please identify yourself. First of all, I

guess it would be nice to know how many people are

throughout. Is there anybody?
66

MS. BUNALES: All the lines are open right now.

There are 23 people on the call right now. And all I

see are phone numbers. I don't have any other --

MS. MAZZ: So if anybody who is a member of the

public would like to share some thoughts with the

committee, speak now. Going, going, gone. Okay.

MS. HAMLIN: Can I ask a process question? Will

you have either a summary or the CART available for us

to take a look at?

MR. BEATTY: We can make the CART available. I

guess it is a question of the turnaround time.

Generally the CART person does a little bit of

clean-up before they send it to me and then I would

put it like before in the drop box, since I'm having

problems at regulations.gov. I think everybody can

use the drop box except, for one person, Frank.

So at this point I will try and get it out to

you, but we can't promise because we have such a short

turnaround between this call and the next that you

would get it with much time in advance of the next

call or the deadline to provide your homework. So we

will do what we can do.

MS. HAMLIN: Okay. Thank you.

MS. MAZZ: Does that conclude our meeting? Thank

you all.
67

MR. BEATTY: Remember everybody, February 13 is

our next call at 1:00 to 3:00 eastern time but most of

you are probably turned off.